[Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

[L10]

@Runninonwater, assuming the worst case
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Vesuva
2 Wasteland
2 Darksteel Citadel
1 City of Traitors
1 Mishra's Factory
This mana base is actually very playable. I'd try my best get a second City of Traitors if I were you and you'd be set for a while. Your first few turns would be slow but your mid-late game mana base should be stable. If your meta has more mid range decks, you can get away with only playing two City of Traitors. If your meta is full of tempo and combo decks, having a full set of City of Traitors may help. As far as I am concerned, using Wasteland, Darksteel Citadel, Cavern of Souls, and Mishra's Factory is a matter of preference and play style. You should cater your mana base to your needs.

Darksteel Citadel is a great land, and it's utility is usually undervalued. It goes well with both Metalworker and Forgemaster, and it can't be destroyed by conventional means.** It is also good against decks that wants to Wasteland lock you out. Sure, they can destroy all your other lands, but it makes all our top deck lands live draws. Good in a meta full of Wastelands.

Mishra's Factory is great because sometimes you are hellbent and need action. It can beat down Miracles after a Terminus. It can block Goblin Guide. Can block most creatures in DnT, including Thalia. It can also be fed to Forgemaster. Good in meta full of mid-range and control decks, where games go long and resources are exchanged.

Wasteland can sometimes lock someone out early if you do it carefully with precision. It can also act as prison with Lodestone Golem or Trinisphere out. Most of the time though, it gets rid of the pesky utility and man lands that we can't really interact with. If you want to play Crucible of Worlds as a singleton, I recommend at least three copies of Wasteland. Good in meta full of Lands decks, mid-range decks, tempo decks, and infect.

Cavern of Souls is good against blue. I guess that goes without saying.

**Painter's can still REB it under Blood Moon+Painters due to the fact that "indestructible" is a keyword. Indestructible use to be just a matter of fact, but no more. Like, Humility would use to make Blightsteel a 1/1 indestructible creature. Now, it's just a vanilla 1/1. :(

@(nameless one)
That's fair. The thing is, I don't really like Grim Monlith in your list. It doesn't bode well Tangle Wire for one and it really doesn't help you ramp out a 6CMC beater by Turn 2. From your experience, has this ever been an issue? If you don't want Metalworker, the closest thing for us to Shops in Legacy, I'd rather have more lands to support Mox Diamond. I'd probably go for something closer to this:

Mana (32)
4 Wasteland
4 Mox Diamond
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Vesuva
2 Ghost Town

Beats (14)
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Razormane Masticore
1 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Phyrexian Metamorph

Lock (14)
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Crucible of Worlds

Or maybe I am completely off base. I don't know.

[sun tzu]

@Runninonwater, assuming the worst case
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Vesuva
2 Wasteland
2 Darksteel Citadel
1 City of Traitors
1 Mishra's Factory
This mana base is actually very playable. I'd try my best get a second City of Traitors if I were you and you'd be set for a while. Your first few turns would be slow but your mid-late game mana base should be stable. If your meta has more mid range decks, you can get away with only playing two City of Traitors. If your meta is full of tempo and combo decks, having a full set of City of Traitors may help. As far as I am concerned, using Wasteland, Darksteel Citadel, Cavern of Souls, and Mishra's Factory is a matter of preference and play style. You should cater your mana base to your needs.

Darksteel Citadel is a great land, and it's utility is usually undervalued. It goes well with both Metalworker and Forgemaster, and it can't be destroyed by conventional means.** It is also good against decks that wants to Wasteland lock you out. Sure, they can destroy all your other lands, but it makes all our top deck lands live draws. Good in a meta full of Wastelands.

Mishra's Factory is great because sometimes you are hellbent and need action. It can beat down Miracles after a Terminus. It can block Goblin Guide. Can block most creatures in DnT, including Thalia. It can also be fed to Forgemaster. Good in meta full of mid-range and control decks, where games go long and resources are exchanged.

Wasteland can sometimes lock someone out early if you do it carefully with precision. It can also act as prison with Lodestone Golem or Trinisphere out. Most of the time though, it gets rid of the pesky utility and man lands that we can't really interact with. If you want to play Crucible of Worlds as a singleton, I recommend at least three copies of Wasteland. Good in meta full of Lands decks, mid-range decks, tempo decks, and infect.

Cavern of Souls is good against blue. I guess that goes without saying.

**Painter's can still REB it under Blood Moon+Painters due to the fact that "indestructible" is a keyword. Indestructible use to be just a matter of fact, but no more. Like, Humility would use to make Blightsteel a 1/1 indestructible creature. Now, it's just a vanilla 1/1. :(

@(nameless one)
That's fair. The thing is, I don't really like Grim Monlith in your list. It doesn't bode well Tangle Wire for one and it really doesn't help you ramp out a 6CMC beater by Turn 2. From your experience, has this ever been an issue? If you don't want Metalworker, the closest thing for us to Shops in Legacy, I'd rather have more lands to support Mox Diamond. I'd probably go for something closer to this:

Mana (32)
4 Wasteland
4 Mox Diamond
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Vesuva
2 Ghost Town

Beats (14)
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Razormane Masticore
1 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Phyrexian Metamorph

Lock (14)
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Crucible of Worlds

Or maybe I am completely off base. I don't know.
if you are running masticores you could also run coercive portal to support the upkeep cost a bit better.

[darkgh0st]

@L10:

If you can generate 4 mana, while Tangle Wire is on stack, tap for 4, let Tangle Wire trigger resolve, then untap Monolith to cast something for 3 to 5. Trick works well with the Stax list.

(nameless one)'s list has plentiful of lands at 25, and does get clumpy late game sometimes. Having more lands doesn't really solve the problem, its just deck inconsistencies that MUD suffers not having library fixing.

[L10]

You know what, that interaction honestly flew over my head. I am sure I would have done it if I were to play the deck, as it is pretty obvious. Then again, I never actually played Grim Monolith with Tangle Wires before. I guess that inexperience is glaring. Thanks!

Grim Monolith should stay in then. I can actually see his point now regarding to Metalworker in his build. I still think Platinum Emperion may work better than a singleton Wurmcoil Engine, even if it is harder to cast. That's probably the only change I will make.

[sun tzu]

What do you guys feel is the best anti-delver and 'fair' matchup list for MUD?

What cards specifically are so crucial vs them?

I keep testing and tweaking, but I have never been satisfied with the level of success against tempo delver strategies (esp any wasteland strats). Ive seen too many a game lost from their turn 1 delver t2 flip -> disrupt me till I die.

Are there any low cc artifacts to stay colorless that work especially well vs Delver?

The ones that I think of are:
mortarpod / contagion clasp (only works turn 1)
ratchet bomb / powder keg
ensnaring bridge

and everything else seems to cost 3+ mana or just be too situational or horrible to warrant playing.

Perhaps 100% colorless isnt the way to go if your meta is delver + fair decks. Is it time for maindeck whipflare? XD

[darkgh0st]

For delvers, Ratchet Bomb on the side, and Cavern of Souls + anything big.

[(nameless one)]

(nameless one)'s list has plentiful of lands at 25, and does get clumpy late game sometimes. Having more lands doesn't really solve the problem, its just deck inconsistencies that MUD suffers not having library fixing.
Having Mishra's Factory and Kuldotha Forgemaster kinda helps with the consistency. I am also looking forward with the new mulligan rule.


Grim Monolith should stay in then. I can actually see his point now regarding to Metalworker in his build. I still think Platinum Emperion may work better than a singleton Wurmcoil Engine, even if it is harder to cast. That's probably the only change I will make.

Monolith is one of the weakest cards in the deck but the acceleration is really needed to apply early pressure with resistors. I might even go replace all Forgemaster targets with Steel Hellkite since it can sweep up anything that goes through the resistors.


What do you guys feel is the best anti-delver and 'fair' matchup list for MUD?

and everything else seems to cost 3+ mana or just be too situational or horrible to warrant playing.

Perhaps 100% colorless isnt the way to go if your meta is delver + fair decks. Is it time for maindeck whipflare? XD

Definitely an early Ratchet Bomb. I find with my list, it's a coin toss. If I go first, I get to apply early pressure with Chalice/Sphere then Tangle Wire/Lodestone Golem cleans up. If they go first with a turn one Delver, they will ride that to victory. Your saving grace is Wurmcoil via Cavern protected by Resistors.

[L10]

Yeah, in my Stax list, I have nothing but utility lands to help with consistency. I am almost tempted to replace the Hangarback Walkers with Ravager to eat up redundant lock pieces and Smokestack at my opponent's end step. None of my cards has a casting cost of more than 4, except for the Razormane Masticore in the side, which helps. This way, I don't necessarily need ramp in the form of Grim Monolith or Metalworker. I don't even have City of Traitors because I feel that it two steps forward, two steps back. The boost helps to get out a quick lock piece but it sometimes hurts a strategy as proactive as Stax. I can't just pump out a big dude and ride it to victory.

@Delver
We can use 93/94 all star tech, Island of Wak-Wak. But on a serious note, Ratchet Bomb is our best solution. But it can also be a greatly hinder our plan if we destroy our own Chalice, because it makes all their cards active. For a while, I was playing with 2 Urborg in my main as a way to relieve pain from Ancient Tomb in the mid to late game, and also have 2 Maze of Ith on my side. Maze of Ith is the closest thing to a StP in our deck and it combos well with Urborg to tap for mana. I also have Tabernacle as a pseudo Wrath of God against Pyro and Mentor. Ratchet Bomb is by far the best, most versatile sideboard option though.

[darkgh0st]

@L10:

Assuming games two and three after siding in:

If we have a first turn Chalice on play, you won't be blowing up the Bomb for 0 because Delver will be countered.

If there is a first turn Delver when they're on play (meaning you just won), chances are you are playing catch up and playing a Chalice may actually be detrimental for you there, you should be accelerating instead or blowing up a Bomb.

Let's go back to game one Delver scenario, then you won't have the Bomb at all...

[L10]

Just going to copy and paste what I PM to (nameless one). He is on a similar page. More tonight. At work right now.


Dude, what is your opinion on Black Vise as a win con in pure Stax control. One of the things about running Winter Orb is that it makes man lands weaker, and our own resistors prevents us from casting Lodestone Golem to maintain lock. Black Vise is perfect for when we hardback the opponent and is cheap enough to cast before we apply pressure. And it wins quick in multiples. I am work right now but I can write my thoughts out better later if you are interested. I have been wanting this card unban for literally years.

[(nameless one)]

If you're gonna go on full lockdown with Vise as one of your wincons, I would suggest abusing Smokestacks.

Basically the progression of the game will be (based on my page 68 list)

- Either you start with Chalice/Sphere/Revoker or tapped Cloudposts (which is suboptimal). With Vise, you can use one of your non-sol land to cast it.

- With Chalice/Sphere, you either try to follow that up with Tangle Wire/Lodestone Golem or more Sphere (or Metamorph) given that you didn't miss a land stop.

- Apply threat or go for the beats.

The problem with Vise is that once it skips phase one, and there's a Chalice (@1) online, it's gonna be hard to get it on the field. Alternatively you can Forgemaster it onto the field (which is suboptimal) or sacrifice your Chalice to Forgemaster. You can only afford to do the latter if you've already spammed the board with resistors. The problem with that is its next to impossible to cast Forgemaster when you've flooded the board with resistors.

With Vise and Smokestack, you can have Smokestack be online while your resistors are slowing your opponent down. Unlike Forgemaster, Smokestack also eats up your opponent's board, making your resistors faster. Eventually, you can sac your Chalice and cast Vise while your opponent has minimal lands and is softlocked by resistors.

The problem with softlock, your opponent can break away from it. As turns go, if you don't have pressure, it's counter productive. With Vise, it puts your opponent on a clock while you have them on a softlock. It's a plus if you get Smokestack online.

What does everyone thing about this?

[Airwave]

If you're gonna go on full lockdown with Vise as one of your wincons, I would suggest abusing Smokestacks.

Basically the progression of the game will be (based on my page 68 list)

- Either you start with Chalice/Sphere/Revoker or tapped Cloudposts (which is suboptimal). With Vise, you can use one of your non-sol land to cast it.

- With Chalice/Sphere, you either try to follow that up with Tangle Wire/Lodestone Golem or more Sphere (or Metamorph) given that you didn't miss a land stop.

- Apply threat or go for the beats.

The problem with Vise is that once it skips phase one, and there's a Chalice (@1) online, it's gonna be hard to get it on the field. Alternatively you can Forgemaster it onto the field (which is suboptimal) or sacrifice your Chalice to Forgemaster. You can only afford to do the latter if you've already spammed the board with resistors. The problem with that is its next to impossible to cast Forgemaster when you've flooded the board with resistors.

With Vise and Smokestack, you can have Smokestack be online while your resistors are slowing your opponent down. Unlike Forgemaster, Smokestack also eats up your opponent's board, making your resistors faster. Eventually, you can sac your Chalice and cast Vise while your opponent has minimal lands and is softlocked by resistors.

The problem with softlock, your opponent can break away from it. As turns go, if you don't have pressure, it's counter productive. With Vise, it puts your opponent on a clock while you have them on a softlock. It's a plus if you get Smokestack online.

What does everyone thing about this?


Hmmm I guess it's going to be difficult for MUD to use Black Vise because of Chalice. If you're going for this plan you're sure going to need not just 1 of 2 Black Vise. I guess that makes it difficult to get this thing working with chalice even with Cavern-Welder recurring schemes.

I'd say it's either Chalice or Black Vise.


All and all I guess this is a very sad day for MUD. I think we'll see a lot of Maverick, Jund, Elves and Lands decks flying around. Not really our favorite matchups :frown:

[Stuart]

Black Vise seems a lot more exciting for Delver, Burn, etc, but I'd be interested in seeing what Vise-Stax brews people come up with.



All and all I guess this is a very sad day for MUD. I think we'll see a lot of Maverick, Jund, Elves and Lands decks flying around. Not really our favorite matchups :frown:

You might be right, but I'm gonna wait to see how everything shakes out. The Dig ban was definitely a hit to a lot of the decks we prey on, but Miracles, Delver, and decks with 1 CMC spells will still be a thing. Ugin's the only amazing new MUD card that's been printed in the past few years and the deck has persisted; I doubt the Dig ban will be a crippling blow to us.

[darkgh0st]

Having four Black Vises has the same chance in our starting hand as Chalice. Its definitely worth a try, I think I might go try that this Friday... If I find them.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

This won't amount to much , it's cute … I might check in later and play this more stax with Tangle Wire but I want feedback . Black Vise has to go in, Goblin Welder will protect it and other artifacts, Chalice has to come out, Voltaic Key can go in, Top can go in but I prefer Portal . This is the list I came up with . Factory is a bit random but I want sac outlets to Forgemaster.

The list I am playing tomorrow :

4 Ancient Tomb

4 City of Traitors

3 Wasteland

4 Great Furnace

2 Mishra's Factory

2 Gemstone Caverns

3 Cavern Of Souls

4 Goblin Welder

4 Lodestone Golem

4 Kuldotha Forgemaster

4 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Metalworker

1 Blightsteel Colossus

1 Sundering Titan

4 Trinisphere

1 Staff Of Domination

2 Coercive Portal

4 Black Vise

1 Voltaic Key

4 Grim Monolith

[L10]

@(nameless one), I think you hit the nail on the head with your analysis. Thank you. For me, the inclusion of Black Vise is a natural transition from my Stax list couple pages before, except now I get to diversify my win-con with Lodestone Golem, Black Vise, Mishra Factories, and Revokers. For my list, I think I want to have Lodestone Golems and Smokestack as my top-end spells, and remove the Abyss. I still think Razormane Masticore has enough utility in the sideboard as a 2-of though, especially if I decide to keep Ghost Town in my list. I think the combination of Winter Orb, Tangle Wire, Crucible of Worlds, Smokestacks, Sphere of Resistance, and Ensnaring Bridge (?) can prove to be a pretty hard lock.

@Post-Dig, Rant
I for one am VERY happy that DTT is now banned. While it does not favor our deck, it was warping the format in the direction I didn't like. I honestly care more about the health of this format than the impact, however negative, it may have in our deck. It was pushing out way too many archetypes. It was basically turning the format into DTT decks vs. decks that can shove Chalice into their 60 (Merfolk, MUD, Dump Truck) vs. decks that can deal with both (Lands). Heck, just for kicks, I went 3-1 (losing to Lands) at my locals three weeks ago with my Goblins deck by replacing Tarfires with Chalices, just because Chalices were just that good against decks that functions off of 12-16 cantrips. Chalices basically became just as good as Blood Moon that can be used universally, while the DTT decks were pushing out deck who can't shove Chalices in their 60, and I had an issue with that. That is not what I consider to be a healthy format. My friend George Fletes top 8ed at the last Legacy Champs, and even he felt ambivalent about the power level of Chalice, because it literally just won him games whenever it resolved, which he did by going 10-0, even though that he didn't felt it was the most optimal Merfolk list. It just so happens to work great due to the state of the meta. He lost top 8 because he, unfortunately, got paired against Lands. /end

@Post-Dig, Meta

Wasteland is coming back, full force.
When TC got introduced, to our favor, it pushed out Wasteland strategies. After TC got banned, we saw a moderate return of Wasteland strategies, including Lands and Dump Truck and some tempo strategies. It never came back full force because a Wasteland against a deck with DTT feels a lot like Sinkhole when done in an inopportune situation, which made Wastelands harder to use and abuse. Now that Dig is gone, Wasteland finally has its full power back, pre-Khan. So I expect an influx of Wastelands in the coming months, especially with the rise of Death and Taxes, BUG, and RUG Delver.

Risks of Forgemaster
Now that OmniTell is effectively neutered, I expect a migration towards Sneak and Show, which is the natural transition. It is similar to when Sneak and Show pilots got pushed out and was basically forced to play OmniTell to compete. Now that OmniTell is not the premier combo deck, I expect other combo decks, such as Reanimator, to be on the rise. Because of this factor, I suspect both Miracles and Death and Taxes players will use Containment Priest more as part of their SB strategy. With the return of RUG Delver, Stifle will now also be part of the meta again. Both of which are very good at dealing with Kuldotha Forgemaster. More me, Stifle is less of an issue because I play with three Lightning Greaves. All this means is that I have to play more conservatively against RUG, which is fine. Against Containment Priest, this means we need a powerful silver bullet that's not a creature. Fortunately, Staff of Nin are great against both Death and Taxes and Miracles. But both are factors now, more than before, and is something to watch out for. This may actually warrant Batterskull as a tutor target in a form of a threat.

Return of Discard
Much like Wasteland, discard strategies got hurt for two reasons. 1) Blue decks have BS and they can hide their best targets, and Blue was very dominant. 2) Discard basically fed Delve. So not only are you discarding your opponent's worst cards, but you are helping them to Dig for an answer, earlier. With Dig banned, discard spells, especially Hymn to Tourach, has legitimacy now. I can see them coming back with the return of BUG strategies. This is bad for us because they can just discard our threats, leaving us with nothing but mana/ramps, and make us rely on top-deck mode, which is not where we want to be at. Because of this, I am really temped to go back playing Welder, more than ever, even with the potential conflict with Chalice. Chalice has never been great against BUG anyways, and is usually removed against them post-board. DRS is still an issue with Welder being part of the strategy, so I think having main deck Revokers are strong. In fact, I know many DnT players who removed Revokers from their main are now temped to go back.

There is more I wanted to say but it is getting late. But the meta will definitely be shaken up quite a bit. A lot of decks like Elves, Jund, Canadian, BUG, and Stoneblade, are most assuredly to come back. Some of these may not be our best match-ups, but I am glad to see them return.

[Airwave]

Excellent analysis!

I'm happy with the banning too, although I still think it is going to hurt our results. Nevertheless MUD will prevail, of course! :cool:

With the shaken up meta, I'm quite sure we have to shake up our lists as well... I'm not quite sure which direction to go at this point. Time will tell...

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

I'm a bit disappointed with the lack of talk about Black Vise and pressed for time I'm not going to be trying it tonight .
I'm also missing Mox Opal and Divining Top which would be key cards .
Rummaging Goblin is the best draw engine available playing Cavern of Souls. This isn't saying much.

[darkgh0st]

I'm a bit disappointed with the lack of talk about Black Vise and pressed for time I'm not going to be trying it tonight .
I'm also missing Mox Opal and Divining Top which would be key cards .
Rummaging Goblin is the best draw engine available playing Cavern of Souls. This isn't saying much.

May I suggest doing your own testing, research, and/or starting a thread about Black Vise in Legacy? This thread is about MUD specifics after all.

If it's not talked about big in here, there is probably a reason for it.

[Wilkin]

Great post L10.

I agree with what you have said. I would say adding more Staff of Nin and/or Batterskull would be a good thing as the format may become more grindy. I also expect more Sneak Attack but I think that Lands and Miracles will still be played a lot...so I'll still be playing a full playset of Pithing Needle.

Recently I took out Karn Liberated from my 75 and have 2 maindeck Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. Ugin is nuts. LOL, it was hard to take out Karn since hey I love Vindicate and I wanted an out to Null Rod but a resolved Ugin is GG. Against Miracles I took out a Rest in Peace, Elspeth-Knight Errant, Blood Moon and some soldier Tokens, leaving him with only 1 land and a Top (I played a Sundering Titan that got Plowed).

As far as Black Vise is concerned, I feel that if you are going to play it, it's going to be in a more dedicated Prison deck, a deck with a much lower curve. Which is totally fine but would differ substantially from Traditional Mud Lists. Sure, they would both contain many of the same cards but would function differently. At least that's the way I see it.

[MGB]

Guys... what if we built a MUD Aggro version more focused on the smaller stuff and hitting our curve... and took a cue from Vintage and played the Arcbound Ravager + Hangarback Walker "combo"?

I've been testing this and it has proved to feel remarkably powerful. I think I may actually have stumbled on something here:


4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland

4 Crystal Vein <---- 4 Cavern of Souls and/or 4 Blinkmoth Nexus can be subbed for either one of these, depending on preference and meta
4 Darksteel Citadel <----/

4 Metalworker
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Lodestone Golem

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Tangle Wire

2 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte

SB:
the usual stuff, depending on meta.



The way this deck plays out is more like an aggro-control deck that tries to finish off the opponent fast with brutal tempo gains made with the usage of Tangle Wire, Trinisphere, and Wasteland. Arcbound Ravager is remarkably powerful even when you're not an Affinity deck, because he is like a one-card combo piece that can utilize nearly everything else you play, and can invalidate spot removal as well. Hangarback Walker just generates tons of value nearly every time, and with Ravager it's just sick. I think Metalworker might just be at his best in this deck because so much of it is artifacts, and you can just vomit out your hand onto the board in one turn of a Metalworker being live.

[Jakobian]

Guys... what if we built a MUD Aggro version more focused on the smaller stuff and hitting our curve... and took a cue from Vintage and played the Arcbound Ravager + Hangarback Walker "combo"?

I've been testing this and it has proved to feel remarkably powerful. I think I may actually have stumbled on something here:


4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland

4 Crystal Vein <---- 4 Cavern of Souls and/or 4 Blinkmoth Nexus can be subbed for either one of these, depending on preference and meta
4 Darksteel Citadel <----/

4 Metalworker
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Lodestone Golem

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Tangle Wire

2 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte

SB:
the usual stuff, depending on meta.



The way this deck plays out is more like an aggro-control deck that tries to finish off the opponent fast with brutal tempo gains made with the usage of Tangle Wire, Trinisphere, and Wasteland. Arcbound Ravager is remarkably powerful even when you're not an Affinity deck, because he is like a one-card combo piece that can utilize nearly everything else you play, and can invalidate spot removal as well. Hangarback Walker just generates tons of value nearly every time, and with Ravager it's just sick. I think Metalworker might just be at his best in this deck because so much of it is artifacts, and you can just vomit out your hand onto the board in one turn of a Metalworker being live.


My buddy and I were sort of playing around with an affinity build which played Gaea's cradle and equipment. Gaea's Cradle might be worth considering with the tax effects and hangarback walker to get a very large hangarback or play and equip equipment in the same turn. Just a thought.

[L10]

Hey, MGB, I see that you are going to the Eternal Extravaganza. Let me know if you need to barrow anything MUD related. I see that you are trying to make a port of Frobots. To help you better, I think it may be important to know why Frobots are designed the way they are in Vintage.

Vintage Frobots

The reason why Frobots did so well compared to other Shop flavors, including Stax and Martello Shops is due to one card: Dack Fayden. If you play blue, you also play red. It just that simple. This one card presents a serious issue for Shops. Many Shop decks has evolved to combat against this one card. Martello Shops has Forgemaster to cheat in Sundering Titan to make the control player off mana to cast Dack, and Blightsteel was dropped as a win con because it can be easily stolen. However, Martello Shops has an issue of actually dealing with an active Dack.

Arcbound Ravager is one of the answers to combat against Dack because it allowed you to sacrifice any artifact so it can't be used against you.

Since Dack decks also play red, it gives them access to Meltdown and Pulverize from the SB, which is also devastating for traditional Shop decks like Martello Shops. To combat this, the convenient newly printed Hangarback Walker was the perfect solution to this. Hangarback also trumps the ever popular UR/x Delver thanks to DTT.

Revoker are usually played as a 4-of in in all Shops as a main deck answer against Dack, as well as any Moxen to cripple their opponents first few turns and win by going way ahead.

SoFaI is also great in Frobots because it prevents Dack from stealing whatever SoFaI is equipped to. The worst thing that can happen is for Dack to steal one of your creatures and is on defense. It also allows Frobots to race/kill both Delver and Pyromancer without casting any spells. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT because it slows down the DTT engine, since DTT players needs spells to counter to dig faster.

So the whole Frobot list, and the reason why it did so well in the Vintage Champs, is because it fought against the meta very well. It is also good to note that Frobots did well at the Vintage Champs were piloted by traditionally blue players. However, many of the traditional Shop players did relatively poor. I think only four Martello Shop players made top 32, even though that the great majority of the Shop players (26% of the meta) was playing Martello Shops. I think the traditional Shop players were not expected to face a meta so well prepared against them, while the traditional blue players knew that they had to have game against Shops to win. As it turns out, Frobots are also very good against some of the more traditional Shop lists.

Suggestions

I have been messing around with a Legacy port of Vintage Frobots as well. I agree. It is very strong. I think you should give Trike a try as a 2-of. The synergy is very good. You should consider adding in some Steel Overseer since it powers up Ravager, Hangarback, and Trike. It also puts Lodestone Golem out of Bolt range. Since Metalworker, Hangarback, Trike, and Steel Overseer are all Constructs, Cavern of Souls makes a perfect addition. I would say at least a 2-of.

I'd consider Inkmoth Nexus as a 2-of as well as an alternate win con. Sometimes, it's hard to win from the ground in a stalled board state. However, you can win out of nowhere by sacrificing all your artifacts to Ravager, then to Inkmoth Nexus, and swing. It is important to note that Inkmoth Nexus DOES NOT lose the counters from Steel Overseer or Arcbound Ravager, just in case you need to go for round 2.

I don't like SoFaI in the main. In Vintage, it makes sense because creature decks are either non-existent or are tempo decks that has Delver and Pyromancer. In Vintage, it literally reads "Sword of Fire and Ice deals 2 damage to target player and you draw a card" 99% of the time except against the mirror and Dredge. In Legacy, SoFaI usually just gives your creature +2/+2. Not impressive. Unlike DnT, we don’t have meaningful flyers for Frobots, unfortunately.

I do like the Sword package though. I think you should have 2 copies of Phyrexian Metamorph in your 75. It can act as an extra Lodestone Golem, really anything in your deck, an opposing Tarmogoyf, etc. I think you’d find it surprisingly good and useful. However, it is also good at copying an opposing Stoneforge Mystic. Your SB should have a copy of SoFaI and SoLaS. Against DnT and Esper Stoneblade, you can fetch for SoLaS. Against UWr Blade decks, you can fetch for SoFaI.

That's all I have for now. Right now, I am working on a Welder list for Eternal Extravaganza, so I probably won't be messing around with Legacy Frobots for a while. Good luck!

[sun tzu]

Guys... what if we built a MUD Aggro version more focused on the smaller stuff and hitting our curve... and took a cue from Vintage and played the Arcbound Ravager + Hangarback Walker "combo"?

I've been testing this and it has proved to feel remarkably powerful. I think I may actually have stumbled on something here:


4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland

4 Crystal Vein <---- 4 Cavern of Souls and/or 4 Blinkmoth Nexus can be subbed for either one of these, depending on preference and meta
4 Darksteel Citadel <----/

4 Metalworker
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Lodestone Golem

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Tangle Wire

2 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte

SB:
the usual stuff, depending on meta.



The way this deck plays out is more like an aggro-control deck that tries to finish off the opponent fast with brutal tempo gains made with the usage of Tangle Wire, Trinisphere, and Wasteland. Arcbound Ravager is remarkably powerful even when you're not an Affinity deck, because he is like a one-card combo piece that can utilize nearly everything else you play, and can invalidate spot removal as well. Hangarback Walker just generates tons of value nearly every time, and with Ravager it's just sick. I think Metalworker might just be at his best in this deck because so much of it is artifacts, and you can just vomit out your hand onto the board in one turn of a Metalworker being live.I definitely feel like you will want blinkmoth nexus in here. The flying will likely be super relevant, especially for putting counters on jitte, and connecting with sword of fire and ice.

is it possible your chalice of the void, and trinisphere might be better of being more aggro spells? i am concerned that this style of deck will fall victim to topdeck mode being very underwhelming sometimes.

ghostfire blade seems awesome. i was thinking trinisphere + tangle wire might also be too cute than effective, as neither of these cards helps you take advantage of the lock that they create. just the tangle wires might be enough, opening up more slots for you to push your advantage.

also: what about etched champion?

[Jakobian]

Is metalworker even good in this style of deck (MGB's post about Frobots) at this point? It doesn't seem like it's "powering out" anything crazy other than maybe a larger hangerback walker. It might open up 4 slots for some other useful cards instead, or am I mis-evaluating it?

[L10]

Metalworker is fine because it allows him to dump his hand. Once hell bent, he can eat Metalworker with Arcbound Ravager anyways. Playing Lodestone Golem and Tangle Wire on the same turn is a very strong power move, and can win on its own. If he just lays down one threat at a time, it may actually be too slow. This is why he has Trinisphere and Tanglewire, as an attempt to slow his opponent down. Even if he draws redundant prison cards, he can feed them to Arcbound Ravager, much like what we do with Forgemaster. MGB is known to play the Stompy style decks. I think during the last Eternal Extravaganza, he played Soldier Stompy.

Personally, if I were to play Legacy version of Frobots, I like to go big. I don't even care about out tempo-ing my opponent like traditional stompy framework with Chalice and Spheres. I rather just bowl them over in the first few turn.

//Mana (24)
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb

//Ramp (8)
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith

//Threats (22)
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Steel Overseer
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Arcbound Ravager
2 Triskelion

//Utility (6)
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

[Stuart]

@Post-Dig, Meta


Very good synopsis/speculation! Of all these, I'm most worried about Wasteland's resurgence. I'm assuming we're all gonna come to love Crucible.



4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland

4 Crystal Vein
4 Darksteel Citadel

4 Metalworker
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Lodestone Golem

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Tangle Wire

2 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte


Very cool build. I'd personally prefer Batterskull to SoFaI, but that might mess up the curve. Let us know how this tests for you.

#

Not to derail us from Frobots, but played at Pat's last night. Only 12 people came in, and 4 of us were on Mud! I think I've started a trend :laugh:. 3 out of my 4 matchups were new to me, so it was a good learning experience. List was the same as last week (see previous page) except swapping Hellkite for Platinum Emperion. Hellkite is a bomb in Vintage, but I have yet to see it do anything in Legacy. Emperion seems relevant in a lot of matchups, and after getting grilled by Burn last week it felt like a smart inclusion.

Round I: 12-Post: 2-1
- Game 1: My first time playing Mud vs 12-Post, so I'd never really thought about how ridiculous Cloudpost is. He casts a Show and Tell into Emrakul, but I flip a Spine to kill the Emrakul. He scoops.
- Game 2: (I board in a 2nd Spine and 2 Crucible.) He Cloudposts out an Emrakul pretty quickly, gets it looping with Karakas, and I die.
- Game 3: The poor guys mulls to 3 . . . then I get a Crucible lock.

Round 2: Grixis Delver: 2-1
- Game 1: He Wastes me off my lands and casts a Gurmag Angler. I die.
- Game 2: (I board in 2 Ratchet Bombs and a Contagion Engine.) I Waste his lands and Ratchet Bomb a Deathrite. It grinds on for a while until he has 2 Anglers. I cast a Sundering Titan to wipe his lands, follow up with a Lodestone the next turn, then Contagion Engine the turn after.
- Game 3: Grindy, Wastelandy game, but eventually I land Staff of Domination + Metalworker and he scoops.

Round 3: Food Chain: 2-0
- Game 1: Spine, Chalice, and Waste disrupt him for long enough for me to stick an Ugin. I wipe his board and he scoops.
- Game 2: (I've never played Food Chain and didn't know what he does with his infinite mana, so I board in a Platinum Angel and the 2nd Spine just in case.) Pretty much the same thing as game 1; he has trouble assembling the combo, then Ugin locks it up.

Round 4: Reanimator: 0-2
- Game 1: He's on the play with Entomb > Griselbrand. I play Chalice on 1. He Exhumes Griselbrand, draws 7, and gets himself an Elesh Norn. I die quickly.
- Game 2: (I board in the 2nd Spine, Platinum Angel, 2 Thorn of Amethyst, 2 Pithing Needle.) I keep an opener with Chalice, Trinisphere, and Thorn, but no Sol Lands. He Entombs Griselbrand before I can Chalice, Exhumes him afterwords, and I die.

Pretty solid night for Mud. I'll probably wait to see how the post-DTT meta evolves, but right now I'm thinking I need some grave hate in my board. My 3 Tsabo's Web will probably become 3 Tormod's Crypt, unless DnT rears its head.

(BTW, if people are getting tired of my reports cluttering up the thread, let me know! Don't wanna get in the way of strategy/list discussions.)

[Silverflame]

(BTW, if people are getting tired of my reports cluttering up the thread, let me know! Don't wanna get in the way of strategy/list discussions.)

Please feel free to keep posting, reports are useful to gauge the meta and learn new techs, also your opinion is always welcome.

[bigbobbobber]

Just a question: Is Ugin, the Spirit Dragon pretty much an auto include in this deck? If yes, sell me on him and let me know what you consider the perfect number of copies. If no, then explain why you don't like him. Played MUD at the weekly a couple of nights ago and was locked behind my opponent's Ensnaring Bridge; I felt like Ugin would have been great here to either clear it up or bolt him to death.

[Bobmans]

Just a question: Is Ugin, the Spirit Dragon pretty much an auto include in this deck?

Ugin solves the weakspot thus deck has, namely getting back into the game when your losing ground on the boardstate. Ugin resets that. It often locks out your opponent no matter what his boardstate is. That said, Ugin limits the options on what variant to run. You'd really want the Cloudpost manabase for the card to consistantly resolve. Red MUD increases explosiveness, but is far more instable and cant rely on getting an Ugin out midgame.

[Silverflame]

Ugin solves the weakspot thus deck has, namely getting back into the game when your losing ground on the boardstate. Ugin resets that. It often locks out your opponent no matter what his boardstate is. That said, Ugin limits the options on what variant to run. You'd really want the Cloudpost manabase for the card to consistantly resolve. Red MUD increases explosiveness, but is far more instable and cant rely on getting an Ugin out midgame.

Also Ugin is hard to remove as it will clear the board (most of the time with -3, keeping it out of bolt range) on entering and keep bolting. The cards that remove it are basically maelstrom pulse, council's judgment and cataclysm. It is a 1 card combo, as it locks the table and mostly wins by itself. Fun thing to do is on the play go T1 sol-> monolith-> metalworker, T2 Ugin. Specially against elves.
Compared to Karn, he have the disadvantage of not hitting artifacts and manlands, but he can kill multiple permanents, what is better against most decks.
I use 2 on the cloudpost manabase, maaaybe 3 would be good, but since it's 8 mana and there are stuff like meddling mage being played, I believe 2 is the magic number.

[MGB]

So I've been testing the MUD Aggro deck a bit recently, and it makes me kind of sad, because the deck has been doing so well for me and has been so explosive and powerful that I feel like I am going to have to drop $200+ on a playset of Wastelands, and $150+ on a playset of Arcbound Ravagers, because I don't own any of those cards but this particular build feels like the most powerful way to build MUD to me.

Hangarback Walker + Arcbound Ravager interaction is just sick. Actually, Arcbound Ravager is just all kinds of sickness in general, and might even be better in MUD than he is in Affinity. Being able to sac your own Trinispheres and Tangle Wires to combo-kill your opponent on your turn after they've already affected the opponent is all kinds of goodness. And Arcbound Ravager in play basically means your opponent's spot removal is completely invalidated. There are just so many benefits to playing Ravager in an artifact deck, even if it's not Affinity...

[Wilkin]

I play 2 Ugin main and I love it. Ugin can swing games alone, usually resulting in a one sided board wipe. I used to have Karn and he's still good but Ugin can help you claw your way back in the game much much quicker.

Also with the banning of Dig Through Time, there should be less Omnitell going around. A matchup where Ugin doesn't actually do that much. Of course, if you think a lot of those players will revert to Sneak/show, Ugin doesn't do a whole lot there either IMO. But in a meta where I expect a lot of Miracles, Delver, Elves, Stoneblade etc. Ugin is a beating.

Yeah Hangarback + Ravager looks pretty sick. Thought about giving that a go but that would change the deck a lot. MUD is a bit clunky but I love the Forgemaster tutor package, Blightsteel + Greaves gives the deck wins out of nowhere. Also very hard to deviate from the Cloudpost manabase. I like the fact that sometimes you don't rely on Metalworker for mana.

[L10]

Stuart, you are more than welcome to post reports. More the merrier.

MGB, you can barrow my play set of Wastelands and Arcbound Ravagers for EE3 if you need them.

[darkgh0st]

Reports are always great.

I played today at an 8-man tourney. Meta was BUG, RUG, Storm, Reanimator, Sneak and Show, MUD(me), Imperial Painter, RG Lands.

Basically half of us were playing Wastelands and meta was more diverse even if there was only 8 of us.

Went 1-2, all losses were due to being Wasted that critical land and not drawing into more lands. I'd really hate to say it that Cloudposts have become a liability, but I just can't find anything that produces as much mana to replace it. Oh, and Null Rod showed up too.

I'm thinking that curving lower would help and that it may be time to pull out (nameless one)'s stax list again.

EDIT: or maybe go up to 4 Pithing Needles in the SB...

[L10]

I never leave home without a copy Crucible of Worlds in my 75. I think Darksteel Citadel's application in MUD is severely undervalued. Not only is it Wasteland proof, it helps Metalworker to ramp and Forgemaster to Tinker. These are all applications which are relevant in our deck. In my deck, I also play two copies of Thran Dynamo and two copies of Voltaic Key. Mana in general has not been an issue. Stony Silence and Null Rod are the two cards I am hoping to dodge.

[Jakobian]

Hello again everyone.

Just wanted to let you guys know MUD is still awesome after the dig through time ban. I went to a 46 player event and went undefeated coasting into top8. Top8 split the prize. I was playing my usual list which has been posted previously in this thread, and is/was in the page 1 primer post. If anyone wants a little bit more detail on how I sideboarded or how the matchup went, I can provide a little bit more as I did take a few notes.

Matchups were as follows:
Round 1 - Enchantress (2-1)
Round 2 - Reanimator (2-0)
Round 3 - Storm (2-0)
Round 4 - D&T (2-0)
Round 5 - Burn (2-0)
Round 6 - Intentional draw with Shardless BUG player

I ended up with a 90% game win percentage going into round 6, which is pretty sweet.
In case anyone is unaware, mulligans are an important aspect of playing MUD. I just wanted to provide some stats on game wins at mulligans to x cards:
Mull to 4: Won 1 game, lost 1 game
Mull to 5: Won 3 games, lost zero games
Mull to 6: Won 3 games, lost zero games
Kept 7 : Won 4 games, lost zero games

Don't be afraid to mulligan aggressively. I generally don't mulligan down to 4 at this frequency, but the rest is very typical of a 5 round event with MUD (last round doesn't count because of the intentional draw).

Other interesting stats:
Games won via staff + metalworker: 2
Games won via Platinum angel + lightning greaves: 2
Games won via Ugin: 2
Games won via forgemaster -> blightsteel: 1

From what I can remember, the metagame breakdown was something like this (not all decks represented, just what I remembered seeing):
5-8 Death and Taxes; 4-6 Shardless BUG; 4 Burn; 3 Elves; 3 Enchantress; 2 Storm; 2 MUD; 2 Reanimator; 2 Jund; 1 Junk aggro loam; 1 RG lands; 1 Dredge; 1 Sneak & Show; 1 American control; 1 RUG delver; 1 Deadguy Ale; 1 Imperial Painter

[L10]

Great work! I would like to hear your SB strategy against Reanimator since no one in my meta plays it. Well, one did, but he moved away for a PhD program in Physics. Do you also have notes on which turn you get to combo off with SoD?

[Jakobian]

Great work! I would like to hear your SB strategy against Reanimator since no one in my meta plays it. Well, one did, but he moved away for a PhD program in Physics. Do you also have notes on which turn you get to combo off with SoD?

Honestly our game 1 is very good vs reanimator, so the sideboard strategy isn't much.

I did -1 ugin, -1 sundering titan, -1 lightning greaves
+2 tormod's crypt, +1 emrakul, the aeons torn (since reanimator can sideboard into show and tell safely now)

I run 2 staff of domination in the mainboard of my list which is pretty good vs reanimator (just tap down their dude they reanimate.)

I think my staff + metalworker wins were actually fairly late (turn 4ish) because I always want trinisphere or chalice down before casting metalworker for protection. One was vs burn so I want to say it was turn 4, the other was vs D&T so it was very late game, after a cataclysm had happened.

[Stuart]

Please feel free to keep posting, reports are useful to gauge the meta and learn new techs, also your opinion is always welcome.

Cheers Silverflame (and everyone else).


Ugin solves the weakspot thus deck has, namely getting back into the game when your losing ground on the boardstate. Ugin resets that. It often locks out your opponent no matter what his boardstate is.

This pretty much sums up my feelings on Ugin. Resolving Ugin and then -Xing him can totally flip the board state, and I've often found that just one subsequent turn of +2ing him makes people scoop. In terms of raw power, Ugin just might be the best card in our deck.


Yeah Hangarback + Ravager looks pretty sick. Thought about giving that a go but that would change the deck a lot. MUD is a bit clunky but I love the Forgemaster tutor package, Blightsteel + Greaves gives the deck wins out of nowhere. Also very hard to deviate from the Cloudpost manabase. I like the fact that sometimes you don't rely on Metalworker for mana.

Same thought here. Hangarback/Ravager could be awesome, but it seems like a different deck. I'll try it eventually, but probably not until 12-post MUD stops working.


I never leave home without a copy Crucible of Worlds in my 75. I think Darksteel Citadel's application in MUD is severely undervalued. Not only is it Wasteland proof, it helps Metalworker to ramp and Forgemaster to Tinker. These are all applications which are relevant in our deck.

Yep, Crucible has been an all-star for me. Obviously it's good Waste protection, but getting a Crucible-lock on most Delver variants, 12-Post, and lots of other decks is devastating. It also makes City of Traitors better, and in really grindy games, you could pull some stunts around Wasting your Glimmerposts and flashing them back (not recommended :laugh: ).

Haven't played Darksteel Citadel yet, but if opposing Wastes get too strong I'll give it a try.


I went to a 46 player event and went undefeated coasting into top8.


Congrats on the win, and appreciate the detailed analysis on mulligans, etc!

[keys]

Hello again everyone.

Just wanted to let you guys know MUD is still awesome after the dig through time ban. I went to a 46 player event and went undefeated coasting into top8. Top8 split the prize. I was playing my usual list which has been posted previously in this thread, and is/was in the page 1 primer post. If anyone wants a little bit more detail on how I sideboarded or how the matchup went, I can provide a little bit more as I did take a few notes.

*snip*

Nice work! Just dug up your list here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23388-Deck-MUD-(Metalworker)&p=876153&viewfull=1#post876153). Any recent changes?

Have you tried cutting the second Staff of Domination and going up to two Ugin in the maindeck? Staff is so clunky and I never want to see more than one per game. The singleton is fine to tutor up with Forgemaster when needed. With Ugin there's no way to tutor him, and he's just better in more situations (despite costing more).

Is there a reason you play Angel instead of Emperion? I think the latter is better when you don't have Greaves to protect it since you don't just die immediately if your opponent finds removal.

My maindeck is the same as yours, except for the Angel/Emperion swap, -1 Staff +1 Ugin, and I sometimes play Caverns or Factories instead of the Wastelands depending on the meta. Your sideboard is similar but I play more Ratchet Bombs and Revokers (they're just so damn useful). I'm currently using this 15:

3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Ratchet Bomb
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Batterskull
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Karn Liberated

Staff of Nin and Contagion Engine sometimes make the cut but I think they're a bit slow compared to other options.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

I wanted more card advantage in this deck besides Goblin Welder (no go with Chalice) and Daretti (need to sacrifice an artifact, dies to creature attacks)

I came up with.. Goblin Lore … Sorcery for 1R to Draw 4 cards then discard three cards at random. And, Triassic Egg. It's slower than Daretti but has two advantages .. it doesn't make me sacrifice permanents and it allows me to put Sundering Titan or Blightsteel Colossus, or other artifact creatures I have in my hand directly into play, as well as from my graveyard. It's a bit expensive to put two charge counters on it.. not really.. the creature enters the battlefield from your hand uncounterable as well.

Artifact, 4
{3}, {T}: Put a hatchling counter on Triassic Egg.

Sacrifice Triassic Egg: Choose one —

• You may put a creature card from your hand onto the battlefield. Activate this ability only if two or more hatchling counters are on Triassic Egg.

• Return target creature card from your graveyard to the battlefield. Activate this ability only if two or more hatchling counters are on Triassic Egg.

….

I want to play the most inevitable card possible . Triassic Egg offers a lot of inevitability considering its cost is very low. Even if I am top decking into emptiness, I am still able to bring back anything from my graveyard. If I can't get to enough mana from being Wasted, I can afford to spend the 3 mana to put something into play at the end of my opponent's turn, or whenever I want.. since it is instant speed.

[keys]

You realize Egg costs 10 mana and (at least) two turns to activate? I think Thran Dynamo and Voltaic Key are just better if you want to go that route...

If you want card advantage use Scroll Rack, Coercive Portal, or Staff of Nin. Goblin Lore is awful.

[kingtk3]

Quicksilver Amulet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Triassic Egg

[ZEROorDIE]

If we're already talking red here, just play sneak attack. So what, the creature dies at end of turn, weld it back in when you need to.

[Stuart]

If you want card advantage use Scroll Rack, Coercive Portal, or Staff of Nin.

This. Topdecking a Triassic Egg would be horrible. Any of the above cards would get you card advantage, and wouldn't feel bad when you draw them. Other things to try (though you might need to adjust your curve or play around Chalice): Buried Ruin, Sensei's Divining Top, Aether Vial, Bottled Cloister.

[potatodavid]

I have decided to put down MUD for a while. Possibly for good. This thread has been full of hairbrain ideas for the past few months and i'm ready for a deck that doesn't die to itself so often. Need a change of pace. May all of your ugins hit the board on turn 2.

p.s. Serrated arrows is a shit card and you're retarded for suggesting it.

[L10]

Yeah. I don't like playing MUD full time for the same reason, even though it is my favorite archetype. If you want to play a deck that is powerful, engaging, consistent, and a change in pace, I recommend ANT. It is also one of the hardest decks to master if you want to navigate wins in a 10 round tournament, because going off too soon or too late is lethal, and sometimes spotting outs is not obvious. Now that Chalice is restricted in Vintage, I may be picking TPS up again, even with the omnipresence of Mental Misstep.

Anyways, good luck!

[Runninonwater]

I FINALLY got the deck!

The sideboard is kinda thrown together but this is the list atm!
Im feeling like Witchbane Orb is taking up a spot but i don't think i have anything else to put there.
I was thinking of getting some Pithing Needles or something.

Artifact (16)

4x Chalice of the Void
1x Coercive Portal
4x Grim Monolith
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Staff of Domination
1x Staff of Nin
3x Trinisphere

Land (23)

4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
4x City of Traitors
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
3x Vesuva

Creature (18)

1x Blightsteel Colossus
3x Kuldotha Forgemaster
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Metalworker
1x Platinum Emperion
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Sundering Titan
3x Wurmcoil Engine

Planeswalker (3)

3x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Sideboard (15)

1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Duplicant
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Platinum Angel
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x Spine of Ish Sah
2x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Trading Post
1x Trinisphere
1x Witchbane Orb

What do you guys think? :)

EDIT: Maybe i should put 1 Ugin in the sideboard and put another Sundering Titan since im playing 4 Cavern of Souls.

[Stuart]

I have decided to put down MUD for a while. Possibly for good. This thread has been full of hairbrain ideas for the past few months and i'm ready for a deck that doesn't die to itself so often. Need a change of pace. May all of your ugins hit the board on turn 2.

While I haven't found MUD to lose to itself too badly, you gotta play the deck that works for you. What does your list look like - standard 12-post MUD? And what's your meta like?



What do you guys think? :)

Looks awesome! Maindeck is more or less perfect (though I'm a Wasteland fan). The sideboard depends on your meta, obviously, but some quick thoughts:
- I'd recommend +1 Crucible of Worlds, although without Wasteland I guess it's not as important. However, bear in mind that with Dig Through Time banned, more people will be playing Wasteland, which kills us.
- I'm not sold on Trading Post. I've been liking Contagion Engine; maybe give that a try instead?

Let us know how it works out for you :smile:

[Runninonwater]

While I haven't found MUD to lose to itself too badly, you gotta play the deck that works for you. What does your list look like - standard 12-post MUD? And what's your meta like?



Looks awesome! Maindeck is more or less perfect (though I'm a Wasteland fan). The sideboard depends on your meta, obviously, but some quick thoughts:
- I'd recommend +1 Crucible of Worlds, although without Wasteland I guess it's not as important. However, bear in mind that with Dig Through Time banned, more people will be playing Wasteland, which kills us.
- I'm not sold on Trading Post. I've been liking Contagion Engine; maybe give that a try instead?

Let us know how it works out for you :smile:

Cool, thanks for the really quick answer!

Im planning to get more Wastelands just to get the playset, i guess i can see if another Crucible is possible of getting.

What do you Think about the Platinum Angel? Is it too much to have in the board? Against which decks would i sideboard it in?

Gonna see if i can find my Contagion Engine.

[L10]

While I haven't found MUD to lose to itself too badly, you gotta play the deck that works for you.
Absolutely. I think he's just burnt out from playing the same deck, which I completely understand.


Im feeling like Witchbane Orb is taking up a spot but i don't think i have anything else to put there.
Absolutely. The inclusion of Witchbane Orb for me was mainly against Grixis, that also happens to be decent against Burn, BUG, ANT, and TES. Now that Grixis is not really a deck anymore, I think there are better sideboard options.


I was thinking of getting some Pithing Needles or something.
Needles can be good. I had them for a while against Lands, and other Loam decks. Against BUG and Dump Truck, it also pulls double duty against Deathrite Shaman (it stops all abilities) and Lili. I'd only have two copies at most though.


I'm not sold on Trading Post.
Me neither. There is not enough synergy in the deck to make Trading Post worth it, IMO. The combination of Crucible of Worlds and Mishra's Factory should be a prerequisite.


I've been liking Contagion Engine; maybe give that a try instead?
I have tried both Contagion Engine and Clasp and never really liked either of them. I just never find them more useful than Jitte.


Im planning to get more Wastelands just to get the playset, i guess i can see if another Crucible is possible of getting.
You only need 3 Wastelands for 1 Crucible of Worlds to be worth it. Having a playset is nice because it can go into almost any deck.


What do you Think about the Platinum Angel?
She's a good tutor target, especially against decks that has alternate win cons that Emperion can't handle, like Infect and Mill.


I think what you should do as an exercise is to have a clean sideboard (0 cards). Go through all decks in DTB and your local meta. Take out the weakest cards in your deck against specific match-ups and add in cards that you would like in their place. This is a more natural way of designing a sideboard because there will be no redundant cards. Now you also have a cheat sheet that you can use in tournaments to help you sideboard, so you don't have to think about it between matches.

[Stuart]

What do you Think about the Platinum Angel? Is it too much to have in the board? Against which decks would i sideboard it in?


I like Platinum Angel (and I'm running Emperion maindeck). I board it in against anything that doesn't target my life (Infect). I also like it vs Storm, Lands, Burn, and anything else that feels like it can out-damage me.



I have tried both Contagion Engine and Clasp and never really liked either of them. I just never find them more useful than Jitte.


Clasp looks underwhelming, but I've liked Contagion Engine so far. For a while I was running 2 All Is Dust in my board, but I didn't like that I couldn't Forgemaster it and that it didn't feed Metalworker. I've only used the Engine a couple times, but it's a boardwipe against lots of Legacy creatures, and the ones it doesn't kill are still gonna become small enough that they aren't a threat to most MUD creatures (e.g. last week I used it against a pair of Anglers, and it was still good).

On a side note, I like your sideboard exercise. I'll give that a try, as I'm probably gonna need to revamp my board post-DTT.

[Jakobian]

Nice work! Just dug up your list here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23388-Deck-MUD-(Metalworker)&p=876153&viewfull=1#post876153). Any recent changes?

Have you tried cutting the second Staff of Domination and going up to two Ugin in the maindeck? Staff is so clunky and I never want to see more than one per game. The singleton is fine to tutor up with Forgemaster when needed. With Ugin there's no way to tutor him, and he's just better in more situations (despite costing more).

Is there a reason you play Angel instead of Emperion? I think the latter is better when you don't have Greaves to protect it since you don't just die immediately if your opponent finds removal.

My maindeck is the same as yours, except for the Angel/Emperion swap, -1 Staff +1 Ugin, and I sometimes play Caverns or Factories instead of the Wastelands depending on the meta. Your sideboard is similar but I play more Ratchet Bombs and Revokers (they're just so damn useful). I'm currently using this 15:

3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Ratchet Bomb
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Batterskull
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Karn Liberated

Staff of Nin and Contagion Engine sometimes make the cut but I think they're a bit slow compared to other options.

The only change from the list you referenced is witchbane orb is now an orbs of warding (strict upgrade IMO).

I run 2 staff of domination because I actually really really like it as a utility card. It does much more than just "oops I win" with metalworker. In a build running 12post, it enables card draw, taps down fatties (sometimes two at a time if you're a bit flooded), and is amazing against decks like sneaky show, reanimator, and lands. That being said, I do generally sideboard 1 out vs a lot of matchups. When I first built MUD (about 4 years ago) I started with 1 staff of domination and 1 staff of nin, and I figured out that staff of domination just does more, so I increased the count to 2 and I've been very pleased with it.

On the subject of platinum angel vs platinum emperion: Platinum angel flies. In basically any scenario I can imagine where I would want to not lose the game (or not lose life), my opponent generally has some sort of clock. In most cases it's a creature on the ground. Platinum angel flies over that creature and is a clock in addition to just stopping their clock. Generally by the time I would be tutoring for a platinum angel, I will have a chalice of the void at x=1, which nullifies pretty much every removal spell that people play in legacy that can kill it, so it's not only good with a lightning greaves on it.

I really like running pithing needle over phyrexian revoker. I usually board pithing needle in to name wasteland, rather than playing a crucible of worlds. I'd recommend cutting down to 2 tormod's crypts in your sideboard. You'd be surprised how little the deck actually needs them. Chalice at x=1 wrecks reanimator, and trinisphere wrecks reanimator and dredge. I've had a dredge player scoop to a lodestone golem before.

As much as Ugin is my homeboy, I don't want to see him in every single matchup, so I'm fine with my 1 main 1 sideboard. He really shines vs D&T, Elves, dredge, and BUG control matches, but he's terrible vs storm, sneaky show, Reanimator, miracles (depends on the build), etc.

[Jakobian]

I wanted more card advantage in this deck besides Goblin Welder (no go with Chalice) and Daretti (need to sacrifice an artifact, dies to creature attacks)

I came up with.. Goblin Lore … Sorcery for 1R to Draw 4 cards then discard three cards at random. And, Triassic Egg. It's slower than Daretti but has two advantages .. it doesn't make me sacrifice permanents and it allows me to put Sundering Titan or Blightsteel Colossus, or other artifact creatures I have in my hand directly into play, as well as from my graveyard. It's a bit expensive to put two charge counters on it.. not really.. the creature enters the battlefield from your hand uncounterable as well.

Artifact, 4
{3}, {T}: Put a hatchling counter on Triassic Egg.

Sacrifice Triassic Egg: Choose one —

• You may put a creature card from your hand onto the battlefield. Activate this ability only if two or more hatchling counters are on Triassic Egg.

• Return target creature card from your graveyard to the battlefield. Activate this ability only if two or more hatchling counters are on Triassic Egg.

….

I want to play the most inevitable card possible . Triassic Egg offers a lot of inevitability considering its cost is very low. Even if I am top decking into emptiness, I am still able to bring back anything from my graveyard. If I can't get to enough mana from being Wasted, I can afford to spend the 3 mana to put something into play at the end of my opponent's turn, or whenever I want.. since it is instant speed.


Have you EVER tested ANY of the suggestions you make in this thread? You constantly shitpost bad ideas without testing them first. It's useful input if you test something and find out it works, it's not useful if you just sling random pet cards into the fray and mislead people about their usefulness.

[movingtonewao]

I have to say that I don't know any of the cards he is proposing. Triassic Egg seems very niche while Goblin lore seems just plain bad (discarding cards at random isn't where we want to be at).

[Airwave]

I FINALLY got the deck!

The sideboard is kinda thrown together but this is the list atm!
Im feeling like Witchbane Orb is taking up a spot but i don't think i have anything else to put there.
I was thinking of getting some Pithing Needles or something.

LIST

What do you guys think? :)

EDIT: Maybe i should put 1 Ugin in the sideboard and put another Sundering Titan since im playing 4 Cavern of Souls.


Looks rather solid, but the 23 lands might be too greedy in nowadays meta. I'd suggest either going up to 24 or maindecking 1 crucible. Although Ugin is a superfantasticgreat card, two might be enough in this setup.

Furthermore, without any wastelands and pithing needles in the board, lands could be a tough deck to face..

[(nameless one)]

I don't know how much I've missed out with but why is Ugin terrible against Miracle?

[Airwave]

I don't know how much I've missed out with but why is Ugin terrible against Miracle?

It's great against Miracles. They only have 1 out, Council's Judgment...

[L10]

I never had an active Ugin and lost. Council's Judgement and Entreat for 3 are their only outs. Thankfully, I think Mentor Miracles are here to stay. I don't really expect Ponder or Legend Miracles making a comeback because people don't like going to time. People might have a 1-of Entreat as a trump card now that they have 4 spots to fill.

[Jakobian]

I never had an active Ugin and lost. Council's Judgement and Entreat for 3 are their only outs. Thankfully, I think Mentor Miracles are here to stay. I don't really expect Ponder or Legend Miracles making a comeback because people don't like going to time. People might have a 1-of Entreat as a trump card now that they have 4 spots to fill.

I specified depending on the build. Ugin isn't particularly great vs the legends build or the entreat builds because they can instant-speed entreat with top and bash Ugin for lethal. Ugin is great vs mentor miracles though. He's not necessarily terrible vs legends/entreat miracles but I'd rather have my sideboard Karn or sundering Titan I think.

[L10]

Yeah, that's fine. I am not disagreeing with you. I am just being more specific with (nameless one)'s question. I think the great majority of the Miracle's player are going to stick with Mentor plan with Entreat as backup, which Ugin is still strong against. I don't think Ponders or Legends Miracles are going to make much of a comeback. With that said, my current deck has a 1/1/1 split between Myr Battlesphere, Sundering Titan, and Ugin. I also have a 1/1/1 split between Emperion, Sundering Titan, and Ugin in my side. I don't think Karn is all that great vs. any versions of Miracles either. I really just want Sundering Titan.

[Runninonwater]

Maybe i should just cut Trading Post, put the third Ugin in the sideboard and add another lands since 23 seems to be greedy.

I have the choices of, Mishra's Factory, Wasteland and Darksteel Citadel.

[darkgh0st]

I feel like I am getting more use from Mishra's Factory after some testing, switching out Wastelands for them after the meta change. As MUD can fall on its face with even a single Wasteland, I'm also favoring upping the Pithing Needles on the side to four. I don't know, this might end up being a bad decision...

[Silverflame]

I feel like I am getting more use from Mishra's Factory after some testing, switching out Wastelands for them after the meta change. As MUD can fall on its face with even a single Wasteland, I'm also favoring upping the Pithing Needles on the side to four. I don't know, this might end up being a bad decision...

maybe upping the citadel count is a safer bet. The problem of using 4-of in the sideboard is that you end up losing action for it, can topdeck extras after you played a chalice for 1 and if your opponent changes his strategy between games, you end up with dead cards.

[Silverflame]

Have you EVER tested ANY of the suggestions you make in this thread? You constantly shitpost bad ideas without testing them first. It's useful input if you test something and find out it works, it's not useful if you just sling random pet cards into the fray and mislead people about their usefulness.

To be fair, there is 1 card our ingenious friend suggested that might actually make sense. Mindless Automaton on the stax build. It can pseudo protect you from black vise and discard by adding counters to it and it's a good target to receive ravager counters. I'm not totally sold on it as it would be hangarback 5-8 and it cries for a steel overseer, but it seens fringe playable to me.

[darkgh0st]

maybe upping the citadel count is a safer bet. The problem of using 4-of in the sideboard is that you end up losing action for it, can topdeck extras after you played a chalice for 1 and if your opponent changes his strategy between games, you end up with dead cards.

Citadel is a no go for me due to my meta having lots of Null Rods. Im upping the Needle count for Lands. Lands post-SB with 4 Grips feels really harsh.

[conboy31]

http://www.twitch.tv/svmtv

MUD up a game in what appears to be the finals vs. bug shardless.
Appears to be pretty stock, with ugin/etc.

[Silverflame]

I tested Sanctum of Ugin the whole day against a team member and as expected, it felt underwhelming. Most of the time I hoped it was a cavern of souls or a wasteland.

[L10]

Citadel is a no go for me due to my meta having lots of Null Rods. Im upping the Needle count for Lands. Lands post-SB with 4 Grips feels really harsh.

Funny story, I played my Welder MUD list at my locals yesterday. Game 2 against Shardless BUG, my opponent has a Null Rod out. My only permanents were Welder, Chalice, Darksteel Citadel, and Great Furnace. He casts Hymn to Tourach, which made my discard a Sundering Titan and Wurmcoil Engine. I brought both Sundering Titan and Wurmcoil out with Welder and my opponent never recovered. I got really lucky, to say the least. lol. I was trying out Darksteel Citadel in place of Wasteland, an idea I got from Fry, but I am not sure if I like it in my particular list. Without Wasteland, my Lodestone Golems didn't feel as powerful.


http://www.twitch.tv/svmtv

MUD up a game in what appears to be the finals vs. bug shardless.
Appears to be pretty stock, with ugin/etc.
To my knowledge, this is the first time MUD has ever won an major tournament. That's awesome! Congrats to that guy!


I tested Sanctum of Ugin the whole day against a team member and as expected, it felt underwhelming. Most of the time I hoped it was a cavern of souls or a wasteland.
Yeah, that's what I would expect too. It is too conditional as a tutor.

[Troll_ov_Grimness]

To be fair, there is 1 card our ingenious friend suggested that might actually make sense. Mindless Automaton on the stax build. It can pseudo protect you from black vise and discard by adding counters to it and it's a good target to receive ravager counters. I'm not totally sold on it as it would be hangarback 5-8 and it cries for a steel overseer, but it seens fringe playable to me.


I designed the Scars Of Mirrodin fast lands :tongue: Those were good. I take credit for that.

You forgot me likely posting this, if I didn't I should have, at least I post new suggestions even if they're not an Ugin planeswalker , the rest of you talk about the same stuff that has been gone over before . Mindless Automaton could be good in a Welder build . A more interesting Welder discussion could be Welder re-animator . And get off the boo hoo please that this deck needs Metalworker/Grim Monolith, it doesn't, MUD is MUD

from Charlie-in-the-Mox on MTGO

4 Lodestone Golem

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Mox Diamond
4 Ratchet Bomb
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Crucible Of Worlds
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack

4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern Of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mutavault
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Side,

2 Zuran Orb
2 Defense Grid
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Spellskite
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Razormane Masticore

[L10]

That's a MUD Stax build. He doesn't need Grim Monolith, Metalworker, or Forgemaster, because his top end spells has a CMC of 4. Stax builds also needs to tempo their way through, to maintain lock. I think the (nameless one)'s Stax-less Stax build has 3 Grim Monolith and not Metalworkers. My list has no Grim Monolith, Metalworker, or Kuldotha Forgemaster either. But that's because these decks are fundamentally different at what they are trying to accomplish. Forgemaster builds are fundamentally a ramp combo deck. Stax are fundamentally a prison control deck.

[Silverflame]

That's a MUD Stax build. He doesn't need Grim Monolith, Metalworker, or Forgemaster, because his top end spells has a CMC of 4. Stax builds also needs to tempo their way through, to maintain lock. I think the (nameless one)'s Stax-less Stax build has 3 Grim Monolith and not Metalworkers. My list has no Grim Monolith, Metalworker, or Kuldotha Forgemaster either. But that's because these decks are fundamentally different at what they are trying to accomplish. Forgemaster builds are fundamentally a ramp combo deck. Stax are fundamentally a prison control deck.

my thoughts exactly, since the banning of dig, welder seens much more interesting and the stax list became more powerful. I like the idea of using ravager and would like to see more input about that list if possible.

[Bobmans]

my thoughts exactly, since the banning of dig, welder seens much more interesting

The thing(s) that is witholding me from playing Welder is that Ugin is much less attractive to play in those lists. Is it even optional to play MUD without running Ugin? Can we justify that?

[L10]

my thoughts exactly, since the banning of dig, welder seens much more interesting and the stax list became more powerful. I like the idea of using ravager and would like to see more input about that list if possible.
Welder has been doing great for me. I am still at the R&D stage but this is my current list:
http://i.imgur.com/amL83Lal.jpg

Stax is good. But sometimes, you get all locks, and no actual win con, and that gets frustrating. For example, if your opponent has RIP out, and you can't recur Mishra's Factory beats. Another example, you play Sphere of Resistance but not being able to cast Lodestone Golem before the opponent is able to establish their board. Delver of Secrets can sometimes just go under everything you are trying to do and you don't have a Ratchet Bomb to answer him. I am currently not working on a Stax build, but Black Vise seems interesting.

Ravager is strong in conjunction with Hangarback Walker and Trike. MGB likes it in his list. The problem with me about porting Frobots to Legacy is that Frobots are strong in Vintage are solely due to its match-ups in Vintage, which are UR Delver Decks, Dack Fayden, and Pulverize. We don't have to fear these cards in Legacy. Also, in Vintage, I can go something like:
T1: Shop, Mox, Mox, Revoker (on Mox Sapphire), Thorn, Go
T2: Ravager, Tolerian Academy, Hangarback for 4.
Clocked my opponent for 3 Turns and he was out. I had a Tangle Wire out too. Frobots in Vintage is wild explosive. I can't say the same for Legacy. It seems to be working well with MGB though.


The thing(s) that is witholding me from playing Welder is that Ugin is much less attractive to play in those lists. Is it even optional to play MUD without running Ugin? Can we justify that?
Fry plays a list with Daretti and Ugin, but no Welder or Lodestone Golem (opting solely for Trinisphere).
In a Welder list, Ugin is perfectly viable in the SB where Welder isn't strong. For example, Welder is very weak against Death and Taxes because they will be expecting him (preemptive Revoker) and that both Containment Priest and Grafdigger's Cage would be a even greater blow-out, being able to deal with both Welder and Forgemaster. They also have access to RIP too. Against D&T, I usually take both Welder and Daretti out for Sharpshooter, Ugin, etc.

[movingtonewao]

can you explain your choices and reasoning for this welder build you are making

[Stuart]

http://i.imgur.com/amL83Lal.jpg

(Awesome Mountains! Very jealous.)

How has Sharpshooter been working for you? I'm putting together something based off the Vise-Stax discussion over in Developmental Decks, so maybe Sharpshooter would have a home there, too.

[movingtonewao]

whats that set of tokens between the wurmcoil tokens and the daretti emblem? never seen it before.

[Wilkin]

whats that set of tokens between the wurmcoil tokens and the daretti emblem? never seen it before.

I think they are Myr Tokens. Which is a bit odd because I don't see Myr Battlesphere or another way to generate Myr Tokens. Maybe I missed something.

[L10]

can you explain your choices and reasoning for this welder build you are making
Yeah sure. I won't give you the whole run down since this deck is still in beta, but I will give you my reasoning for some card choices.

Goblins Welder: I am only playing with three copies just in case I have a turn 1 Chalice. If that's the case, I need to wait until I get a Cavern of Souls or my opponent to blow up the Chalice. But I want to at least three so I still have a good chance of him in my opening. Also, since I am only playing 4 CoS + 6 Red Sources, I feel safer playing with three copies of Welder as a splash card.

Lightning Greaves: Three has always been the magic number for me as the number of Lightning Greaves I play in Forgemaster builds. The one turn difference to activate Metalworker, Forgemaster, Welder, Steel Hellkite, or swinging for the kill with Blightsteel, is simply not trivial. I don't mind having multiples because I can always Forge away the extras. This deck also has 24 creatures, so Lightning Greaves tends to always be equipped by something. Even a protected Revoker has a ton of value.

Phyrexian Revoker: I mainly have it in the main to clamp down cards that can ruin our strategy in the MD, like DRS and Ooze. This also frees up space in the SB. Phyrexian Revoker is also just really good at clamping down every powerful cards. Just ask any DnT player. Also, much like DnT, we can reset Revoker with Welder if a more threatening target comes up. Very happy with it so far.

Staff of Domination: This is a flex spot. It can also be Crucible of Worlds. I am liking it so far because it can win games out of nowhere, as well as buying one turn against SnT and Reanimator. When you Tinker it out to combo off with Metalworker, make sure you have three mana floating. This is because when your opponent tries to plow Metalworker, you can use the three mana to untap Metalworker and continue with the combo. By the end of the combo, Metalworker will get exiles, but the damage has already been done. Crucible is the other option to recur Wastelands and Great Furnace.

Steel Hellkite: Steel Hellkite can steal games in spots that Blightsteel can't, like when the opponent already has board presence and you can't afford to swing with Blightsteel. This is also why I love Lightning Greaves. Swinging with a hasty Steel Hellkite and EE the opponent's board the same turn is a very strong power move, and can usually win games alone.

Sundering Titan: This is also a flex spot. It can be Myr Battlephere instead. Not sure what to say, really. Sundering Titan + Welder has always been broken against any deck that plays dual lands, and usually leads to concession too. Sure, sometimes it eats my own Mountain, but that's fine. Myr Battlesphere is also good with Welder shenanigans, feeding Forgemaster, fightign against the mirror, going through Maze of Ith, and beating down planeswalkers.

Daretti: Pretty insane planeswalker. His best ability is actually his +2, because it allows us to start the Welder engine going as well as fixing our hand. I am only playing with two copies because I only have 6 red sources.

Mindslaver: This is a tech I borrowed from hartigan. Directly from the man himself, "I only board this in against slow (very very slow) controlling decks to mess them up, it has been INSANE against lands, I played lands once at the IQ and won by slaver-locking them and killing them with their own glacial chasms". So far, I am liking it. Combos with Great Furnace and Crucible of Worlds for full lock. Comes with Wurmcoil for partial lock.

Blood Moon: Kill Lands. Kills 12-Post. Kills BUG. Some decks simply can't play Magic with Blood Moon in play.

Sharpshooter: See below.

Tormod's Crypt: Pretty insane with Welder since it is a recurring Grave hate. With Crucible + Great Furnace, it is basically a one-sided RIP.


(Awesome Mountains! Very jealous.)

How has Sharpshooter been working for you? I'm putting together something based off the Vise-Stax discussion over in Developmental Decks, so maybe Sharpshooter would have a home there, too.
Thanks! Those Arabian Mountains are some of my favorite cards in my collection.
Sharpshooter is great because people, literally, never expects them from a MUD deck. Against DnT, 100% of the time, they board out Mother of Runes, because she is literally just a Eager Cadet. If Sharpshooter sticks, it is pretty much lights out for DnT, Elves, Infect, and Pyro. Sharpshooter is especially good against Elves because their only out is Abrupt Decay. My deck also has three copies of Lightning Greaves so most of the time, Sharpshooter is protected with haste. Sure, Sharpshooter costs more with Lodestone Golem, but I think it's power level is worth the price, whatever that may be.


I think they are Myr Tokens. Which is a bit odd because I don't see Myr Battlesphere or another way to generate Myr Tokens. Maybe I missed something.
I normally have Myr Tokens ready just in case I want to swap out for Myr Battlesphere over Sundering Titan in the main. Actually, I have a maybe-board of 60 some odd MUD cards just in case I need to adjust for the meta. For example, if I go the the store Gamer's Edge, I know to expect 3-4 regular Lands players out of like 16 people, so I'd put in an extra Mountain, Blood Moon in side, and maybe some Pithing Needles. Also have all these token with me all the time:
http://i.imgur.com/4pH7DBXl.jpg

[Fry]

L10:
I have Whipflare in my board to deal with pesky things since I don't run Welder in my list, but I do like the idea of Sharpshooter, Think I'll try it out when I give my Welders a workout again, Cavern on Goblins would be wonderful. As an extra-ish red source I play a single Solemn Simulacrum, plays well with Forgemaster and a welding Daretti.

I also actually put my Blightsteel in my sideboard because with DTT getting banned, there is a decrease in creatureless/creature light decks and bring it in whenever there is a combo or a control deck with few answers to a hasty BSC.

I am working on a list, and I plan on sharing it in a few weeks once I've played with it more and fiddle with some numbers a little more.

[L10]

I may try Solemn Simulacrum in place of Staff of Domination and Myr Battlesphere in place of Blightsteel Colossus. Though, I currently don't have issues with Blightsteel. I have stolen quite a few games post-DTT with BSC on Turn 2 or Turn 3, thanks to Greaves.

What do you think about Revoker in the main? Do you think it's needed?

Yeah. Let me know. I am always interested in your lists, Fry.

[Bobmans]

Fry plays a list with Daretti and Ugin, but no Welder or Lodestone Golem (opting solely for Trinisphere).
In a Welder list, Ugin is perfectly viable in the SB where Welder isn't strong. For example, Welder is very weak against Death and Taxes because they will be expecting him (preemptive Revoker) and that both Containment Priest and Grafdigger's Cage would be a even greater blow-out, being able to deal with both Welder and Forgemaster. They also have access to RIP too. Against D&T, I usually take both Welder and Daretti out for Sharpshooter, Ugin, etc.

Well, the thing with welder builds in general is that it is harder to get to 8 mana (and hold that). Grim Monolith mostly stays tapped. Your City of Traitors often leave. Ancient Tombs become a liability and Metalworker either gets removed or lacks artifacts in your hand. Cloudpost manabase delivers another angle, and a pretty reliable one. The thing i often feel when playing Welder are the explosive starts or game stealing plays it can deploy, that, or you run out of gas as it has more of an all-in approach and never recover.

[L10]

I think this a matter of play style. I tend to play more mid-range than aggro, even though I can do broken things in the first few turns. For me, Welder is really a means to get value off of Forgemaster, counterspells, and discard spells. I am not playing an all-in Welder list. If I
were, I'd be more inclined to drop Chalice to include cards like Faithless Looting, Lotus Petal, and the fourth Welder. Instead, I play cards like Revoker and Daretti to give myself more protection and inevitability. The problem with going all in with the Welder plan is that strong grave hate like RIP exists, main deck grave hate like DRS and Ooze exists, and the deck sometimes falls
apart without Welder. I have no issues using my mana to untap Grim Monolith if it's the right call, or weld it out from the grave.

You are correct that City of Traitors and Ancient Tomb can be liabilities, and that Metalworker usually hits the bin. Though, Metalworker tends to live longer in my list due to the four Chalices and three Greaves. However, in my current list, I am not playing Ugin for those reasons you listed, and that I don't want to wreck my deck’s mana curve. If I were to include Ugin, I'd have to include cards like Thran Dyanmo and Voltaic Key to help with mana.
In Fry's list, since he plays with 23 lands, Solemn Simulacrum, no Wastelands (he plays Darksteel Citadel instead), and no Lodestone Golems, casting Ugin hasn't really been an issue.

[Stuart]

The wife's at a conference in Stanford this week, so I'm obviously playing Magic. Went over to Whose Turn Is It Games, whose weekly I haven't gone to yet. Only 6 people tonight; I guess they're more of a Limited/Standard shop. Since I haven't posted it lately, my list was:

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone
4 Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil
1 Platinum Empirion
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel
2 Ugin

4 Monolith
4 Chalice
3 Trinisphere
2 Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
1 Coercive Portal
1 Staff of Nin
1 Spine of Ish Sah

4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
1 City of Traitors
3 Cavern of Souls
12 Post

1 Platinum Angel
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Contagion Engine
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Crucible
1 Tsabo's Web
2 Tormod's Crypt

Round I: rogue Grixis Tezzeret brew: 1-2
- Game 1: MUD does exactly what it's supposed to do and I win. All I see from him are Grixis duals and Counterbalance, so I assume he's on some type of super secret Miracles tech.
- Game 2: (Thinking he's on Miracles, I don't sideboard) . . . He surprises me with a Turn 1 Welder. I'm confused. It's followed up with Pithing Needle (on Forgemaster) and Ensnaring Bridge. I hardcast several ridiculous cards, like Blightsteel and Wurmcoil, but can't do anything thanks to Bridge. He gradually picks off my good creatures with Welder, swapping them for Chalices in my graveyard. Eventually he's got a ton of artifacts (Top, Bridge, Mirrodin lands, etc), he puts down a Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas, and ultimates me a few turns later.
- Game 3: (+1 Spine, +2 Pithing Needle, +2 Crucible, -2 Ugin, -1 Forgemaster, -1 Monolith, -1 something else. Trying to minimize what Pithing Needle can shut off.) Same deal as last game, but he's suddenly rife with Kolaghan's Commands and Rakdos Charms. Ugly, ugly match. My only solace is that he went 3-0; neither his DnT nor Reanimator opponents could figure out his deck any better than I could.

Round II: Storm: 2-0
- Game 1: A quick Trinisphere + Lodestone does it.
- Game 2: (-1 Greaves, -2 Ugin, +1 Platinum Angel, +2 Thorn. I probably should have boarded in Tormod's Crypt, but I wasn't thinking about Past In Flames.) Same deal, basically. He's off to a slow start, so I land a Lodestone. Shortly thereafter Sundering Titan cleans it up.

Round III: BUG Delver: 2-0
- Game 1: My opponent was just getting into Legacy, and it seems to me like he picked a hard deck to start off with! Pretty grindy game: he whittles away my hand via Liliana and Thoughtseize, while also dropping a Delver, a Confidant, and a pair of Deathrites. Fortunately, I'm dropping Posts, being smart about my discards, and paying attention to his Delver/Confidant information. As a result, when I hit 8 mana I've got an Ugin in hand and know he only has a Brainstorm. Brainstorm gets him nothing, I wipe the board with Ugin, and that's that.
- Game 2: (+2 Crucible, +2 Ratchet Bomb, -2 Forgemaster, -1 Coercive Portal, -1 Spine.) He Turn 1 Thoughtseizes away my Crucible :cry: I respond by Wasting him off his land. He struggles to catch up on mana, while I get down a pair of Lodestones via Cavern and proceed to beat face.

Thoughts:
- I struggle with rogue brews I'm unfamiliar with. Does anyone have tips on adapting to decks that you haven't seen/don't understand?
- I never realized how devastating an opposing Welder or 2 can be to MUD.
- Storm seems like a cakewalk for us, though I assume TES is harder than ANT. Has everyone else found that?
- 3 Caverns is too many. I'm cutting 1 for a 2nd City of Traitors.
- I really like Wasteland. I've found that playing it Turn 1 can fuck up a lot of decks: nuking a dual can throw off their whole tempo, while it's fine to delay our mana development 1 turn if we're gonna have Ancient Tomb/City/the 12-post package online soon. That's especially been true vs the various Grixis/BURG/BUG Delver builds, and even more especially true with Crucible. To those of you not playing Wastes: how are your Delver matchups going?

[L10]

UBr Tezz isn't exactly rogue, but isn't exactly commonplace either. Good thing he didn't cast Dack. I would have kept in Ugin.


- I struggle with rogue brews I'm unfamiliar with. Does anyone have tips on adapting to decks that you haven't seen/don't understand?
If you are fighting against a deck you are unfamiliar with, I think it is generally best to minimize SB, as it can dilute your strategy. The only cards I really care about are their win con, and if I have a SB card that can hedge against that, it is all I probably put in.


- I never realized how devastating an opposing Welder or 2 can be to MUD.
Welder, the bane of Shops since forever. Red in general has the best artifact hate. Though, I guess Energy Flux is technically the best artifact hate.


- Storm seems like a cakewalk for us, though I assume TES is harder than ANT. Has everyone else found that?
TES is harder because they can, and do, go off in T1 or T2. TES is quite popular here, which is why I am partial to Thorn over Trinisphere. ANT tends to have a hard time against MUD, probably the worst match-up next to Miracles, because we tend to go off by T3 or T4, and by that time, a lock place is already in place. I only recently took out two Hurkyl's Recall from my SB because I am hedging that due to the DTT ban, Metalworker and Chalice-based strategies would get less popular. Though, recent innovations from the Facebook group is starting to hedge against decks that can deploy lock pieces by Turn 2, as a way to go under the Miracles match-up. One of the innovations is the three Empty the Warrens tech, which Caleb Scherer used to win the recent SCG 5K. What this does is help make ANT a T2 to T3 deck, due to the increase in threat density. From testing, I can generally make 4-6 Goblins by T2, which then allows me to flashback Cabal Therapy to shred my opponent's hand even more. I will try to go off again in two turns for another 4-6 Goblins. Rinse and repeat until my opponent die, much like the Grinding Station method. MUD is still very much in the advantage though.

Edit:
I meant 4-6 Goblins, not 8-12. I must have been very tired.

[Wilkin]

Went 4-0 in a small local tournament.

4 metalworker
3 Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Staff of Domination
1 Staff of Nin
2 Lotus Petal
2 Grim Monolith
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Lightning Greaves
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Spine of Ish Sah

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Wasteland

SIDE. 4 Pithing Needle. 2 Powder Keg. 1 Ratchet Bomb. 2 Tormod's Crypt. 2 Faerie Macabre. 1 Batterskull. 1 Sphere of Resistance. 1 Bane of Bala Ged. 1 Crucible of Worlds.

Round 1. Sneak/show. Won in 2. Newish player
Game 1. I spam a couple of Lodestones in the first few turns to slow him down. He show and tells in Griselbrand. I put in Wurmcoil Engine. He draws 7 but that forces him to block Wurmcoil when I swing. He's able to Show and Tell in Emrakul a turn later but I have 2 Lodestones and 2 Wurmcoil Tokens so he's dead even if he blocks.
Game 2. Show and Tell. I put in Ensnaring Bridge. I later put in a Pithing Needle. So his Sneak Attack is no good. I Forgemaster away for a Blightsteel for the win.

Round 2. Elves. Win in 3.
Game 1. Mull to 4. I don't bother playing anything. Most people put me on Deadguy Ale so I figure, I'm dead anyway why bother showing what I am playing?
Game 2. Turn 1 Trinisphere via Petal and Tomb. Turn 2. Metalworker with City of Traitors. Turn 3. Staff of Domination. Turn 4. Win. Opponent kept a 1 lander.
Game 3. Turn 2 Trinisphere. Turn 3 Another Trinisphere. Turn 4. Steel Hellkite that on his turn gets blown up by a Reclamation Sage. Turn 5. Ugin shows up. GG.

Round 3. Rug Delver. Win in 2.
Game 1. He has the first turn Delver that flips (He mulled to 6 and kept the scry on top). But on my first turn I land the Chalice on 1. I take a few smacks but I'm able to Metalworker and Staff combo.
Game 2. Chalice on 1 again early. He keeps a greedy 1 land hand. SO I waste him and it's over.

Round 4. Shardless Bug. Win in 3.
Game 1. Chalice on 1 does the trick. Wurmcoil was Liliana'd away but I put too many things into play.
Game 2. No Chalice. Hymn gets rid of Batterskull and something else relevant. A critical mistake. I have no other cards in hand, I topdeck a Cavern and plop it down. I now have 6 mana. I name Construct. I had another cavern naming Golem. Should have named Wurm.....since I topdeck Wurmcoil Engine that gets countered.
Game 3. Chalice on 1. His hand was Goyf and lots of 1's. And draws into more 1's.

Notes:
-Love the Cloudpost Mana. So abusive and it makes the deck less reliant on Metalworker.
-Sideboard notes. I like the 4 Needles. I usually name Wasteland but today it went in vs Elves and Sneak Attack. Sometimes when I board in Needles, the Chalices come out like eg. vs Death and Taxes. Sometimes they both go in, such as vs Lands. Needle has a whole lot of things to name from Wasteland to Stage. And Chalice is probably going to be set at 2 for Loam and possibly 3 for Krosan Grip.
-Trying out a Bane of Bala Ged in board. Have yet to see it. It was a Sundering Titan in Board but I wanted a different threat.
-Also trying out a singleton Crucible of Worlds in board. Have yet to see it but I don't board it in very often.
-2 Staff of Domination is great. I tried out a Coercive Portal. It was alright but Staff can end the game with Metalworker and even without it, with Cloudpost mana I've drawn 3 or 4 cards a turn. And today I used the Staff to tap down a Goyf to allow Wurmcoil to swing for the win.

[Jakobian]

Went 4-0 in a small local tournament.

4 metalworker
3 Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Staff of Domination
1 Staff of Nin
2 Lotus Petal
2 Grim Monolith
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Lightning Greaves
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Spine of Ish Sah

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Wasteland

SIDE. 4 Pithing Needle. 2 Powder Keg. 1 Ratchet Bomb. 2 Tormod's Crypt. 2 Faerie Macabre. 1 Batterskull. 1 Sphere of Resistance. 1 Bane of Bala Ged. 1 Crucible of Worlds.

Round 1. Sneak/show. Won in 2. Newish player
Game 1. I spam a couple of Lodestones in the first few turns to slow him down. He show and tells in Griselbrand. I put in Wurmcoil Engine. He draws 7 but that forces him to block Wurmcoil when I swing. He's able to Show and Tell in Emrakul a turn later but I have 2 Lodestones and 2 Wurmcoil Tokens so he's dead even if he blocks.
Game 2. Show and Tell. I put in Ensnaring Bridge. I later put in a Pithing Needle. So his Sneak Attack is no good. I Forgemaster away for a Blightsteel for the win.

Round 2. Elves. Win in 3.
Game 1. Mull to 4. I don't bother playing anything. Most people put me on Deadguy Ale so I figure, I'm dead anyway why bother showing what I am playing?
Game 2. Turn 1 Trinisphere via Petal and Tomb. Turn 2. Metalworker with City of Traitors. Turn 3. Staff of Domination. Turn 4. Win. Opponent kept a 1 lander.
Game 3. Turn 2 Trinisphere. Turn 3 Another Trinisphere. Turn 4. Steel Hellkite that on his turn gets blown up by a Reclamation Sage. Turn 5. Ugin shows up. GG.

Round 3. Rug Delver. Win in 2.
Game 1. He has the first turn Delver that flips (He mulled to 6 and kept the scry on top). But on my first turn I land the Chalice on 1. I take a few smacks but I'm able to Metalworker and Staff combo.
Game 2. Chalice on 1 again early. He keeps a greedy 1 land hand. SO I waste him and it's over.

Round 4. Shardless Bug. Win in 3.
Game 1. Chalice on 1 does the trick. Wurmcoil was Liliana'd away but I put too many things into play.
Game 2. No Chalice. Hymn gets rid of Batterskull and something else relevant. A critical mistake. I have no other cards in hand, I topdeck a Cavern and plop it down. I now have 6 mana. I name Construct. I had another cavern naming Golem. Should have named Wurm.....since I topdeck Wurmcoil Engine that gets countered.
Game 3. Chalice on 1. His hand was Goyf and lots of 1's. And draws into more 1's.

Notes:
-Love the Cloudpost Mana. So abusive and it makes the deck less reliant on Metalworker.
-Sideboard notes. I like the 4 Needles. I usually name Wasteland but today it went in vs Elves and Sneak Attack. Sometimes when I board in Needles, the Chalices come out like eg. vs Death and Taxes. Sometimes they both go in, such as vs Lands. Needle has a whole lot of things to name from Wasteland to Stage. And Chalice is probably going to be set at 2 for Loam and possibly 3 for Krosan Grip.
-Trying out a Bane of Bala Ged in board. Have yet to see it. It was a Sundering Titan in Board but I wanted a different threat.
-Also trying out a singleton Crucible of Worlds in board. Have yet to see it but I don't board it in very often.
-2 Staff of Domination is great. I tried out a Coercive Portal. It was alright but Staff can end the game with Metalworker and even without it, with Cloudpost mana I've drawn 3 or 4 cards a turn. And today I used the Staff to tap down a Goyf to allow Wurmcoil to swing for the win.

Thank you for your report! I'm glad someone else is enjoying 2 staff of domination in the main as well. AND pithing needle in the sideboard as an answer to wasteland. I want to try out bane of bala ged at some point as well, but I'm worried his non-artifactness is going to make him less amazing. It's also hard to justify him over Karn Liberated in the same slot. Does your metagame have a lot of graveyard based decks? I noticed you have the 2 faerie macabre and 2 tormod's crypts. I've found 2 tormod's crypts is enough for graveyard decks, since trinisphere or chalice can hose dredge, or at least slow it down a lot. Trinisphere or chalice also hoses reanimator pretty well, so the pre-board matchup is pretty good already. Post-board vs reanimator we can board in show and tell goodies (like spine of ish sah, which has multiple purposes as well). I guess it's probably helpful vs lands.dec and life from the loam strategies though...

Do you miss having 4 wastelands, or have you not noticed much of a detriment?

[Wilkin]

-Bane of Bala Ged should be probably be Karn Liberated. Want to try something different to see if it's any good. So far haven't seen it all it, the fact that it's an Eldrazi and not an artifact is only a huge deal if I have Lodestone Golem already out. So....it could matter but it's not a factor on whether I'll play Bane or not. I play 2 Ugins main and there are times where Ugin costs 9 or 10 because of Lodestone. Or worse yet, because Ugin is more expensive I can't cast it. Annoying but still worth it.
-There are a few Lands decks where I'm at and Reanimator is making a bit of a comeback with Dig Through Time gone so I felt it was necessary to have some Graveyard hate.
-Personally I find Trinisphere doesn't slow Dredge down enough. An Ichorid and a Bridge from Below is more than enough pressure.
-Not terribly concerned with only 2 Wastelands. It's only really there for problematic lands like Academy Ruins or Maze of Ith etc. I only wasted in the game I mentioned since I saw the opponent miss a Land drop after a Ponder.
-Yeah 2 Staffs are great. I combo a fair bit with Metalworker now that I have 2 Staffs of Domination. I tried 2 Staffs of Nin but I found it too clunky as there are already plenty of 6+ mana drops in the deck.

[Stuart]

If you are fighting against a deck you are unfamiliar with, I think it is generally best to minimize SB, as it can dilute your strategy. The only cards I really care about are their win con, and if I have a SB card that can hedge against that, it is all I probably put in.
. . .
TES is harder because they can, and do, go off in T1 or T2. TES is quite popular here, which is why I am partial to Thorn over Trinisphere. ANT tends to have a hard time against MUD, probably the worst match-up next to Miracles, because we tend to go off by T3 or T4, and by that time, a lock place is already in place. I only recently took out two Hurkyl's Recall from my SB because I am hedging that due to the DTT ban, Metalworker and Chalice-based strategies would get less popular. Though, recent innovations from the Facebook group is starting to hedge against decks that can deploy lock pieces by Turn 2, as a way to go under the Miracles match-up. One of the innovations is the three Empty the Warrens tech, which Caleb Scherer used to win the recent SCG 5K. What this does is help make ANT a T2 to T3 deck, due to the increase in threat density. From testing, I can generally make 4-6 Goblins by T2, which then allows me to flashback Cabal Therapy to shred my opponent's hand even more. I will try to go off again in two turns for another 4-6 Goblins. Rinse and repeat until my opponent die, much like the Grinding Station method. MUD is still very much in the advantage though.


Cheers L10. I think that's probably a good rule of thumb for sideboarding. I tend to overreact and want 5+ board pieces, but that throws off my deck composition.

Thorn v Trinisphere is an interesting point. I'm regularly underwhelmed by Trinisphere. My line of thinking tends to be: "So Chalice is shutting off their 1 drops, and Lodestone can make their 2-drops cost 3. What's the point of Trinisphere, then?" Of course, there are obviously a bunch of problems with that thought, and who knows how many times a Trinisphere has looked to me like it isn't doing much, but it's making my opponent sweat? That said, Thorn has been devastating against Storm decks, and after playing some Vintage Shops, I wouldn't mind testing it out maindeck.


Went 4-0 in a small local tournament.
. . .
-Love the Cloudpost Mana. So abusive and it makes the deck less reliant on Metalworker.
-Sideboard notes. I like the 4 Needles. I usually name Wasteland but today it went in vs Elves and Sneak Attack. Sometimes when I board in Needles, the Chalices come out like eg. vs Death and Taxes. Sometimes they both go in, such as vs Lands. Needle has a whole lot of things to name from Wasteland to Stage. And Chalice is probably going to be set at 2 for Loam and possibly 3 for Krosan Grip.
-Trying out a Bane of Bala Ged in board. Have yet to see it. It was a Sundering Titan in Board but I wanted a different threat.
-Also trying out a singleton Crucible of Worlds in board. Have yet to see it but I don't board it in very often.
-2 Staff of Domination is great. I tried out a Coercive Portal. It was alright but Staff can end the game with Metalworker and even without it, with Cloudpost mana I've drawn 3 or 4 cards a turn. And today I used the Staff to tap down a Goyf to allow Wurmcoil to swing for the win.

Nicely done! Some thoughts & questions:

- Yes, Cloudpost is the best land ever printed :cool:
- I'm surprised to see Ensnaring Bridge in the maindeck. Have you run into problems with it shutting down your board and not having a Forgemaster to get rid of it? I'm assuming you must have a lot of Reanimator & Emrakul decks in your meta.
- How have you liked Batterskull? I was thinking about testing it.
- I highly recommend Crucible. That said, there's a lot of Delver in my meta and I'm running 4 Wastes, so the Crucible-lock has been great for me.

[(nameless one)]

I think Ensnaring Bridge is also justifiable when one of your win conditions is Ugin.

[Wilkin]

Ensnaring Bridge can backfire from time to time. I used to run another in the sideboard but I took that out. Yeah there's quite a bit of Sneak/show in my area. Plus it's good to slow down beatings from Goyfs/Delvers. Bridge is also great vs Lands as the token is a 20/20.

Have yet to play Batterskull in a game. I rarely see it. It's a threat that I bring in when a threat maindeck isn't as relevant. Or sometimes I board out a bit of the Forgemaster package if I feel I am going to see Null Rod or Stifle.

Trying out the Crucible. Haven't boarded it in very much. It's for heavy wasteland decks like RUG Delver and for Lands.

[Jakobian]

Just FYI I have been running 2 batter skulls in my sideboard for almost a year now. I really like it vs BUG and miracles because it's harder to permanently remove and the life gain can be relevant. I've also boarded them in vs burn and decks like uwr stone blade or ur delver for the life gain and difficulty to kill. Even if they swords the germ I can still throw batterskull on a metal worker and be back in business. I really like it in the board.

[ZEROorDIE]

Trinisphere makes it much harder for your opponent to cast more than one spell per turn. Really messes up burn and infect. Also does work against pyromancer or mentor strategies. Having both puts your opponent in a very tough spot in regards to how they use their removal.

Edit: I didn't reloas the page, this is in response to the Trini discussion last page.

[L10]

Thorn v Trinisphere is an interesting point. I'm regularly underwhelmed by Trinisphere. My line of thinking tends to be: "So Chalice is shutting off their 1 drops, and Lodestone can make their 2-drops cost 3. What's the point of Trinisphere, then?" Of course, there are obviously a bunch of problems with that thought, and who knows how many times a Trinisphere has looked to me like it isn't doing much, but it's making my opponent sweat? That said, Thorn has been devastating against Storm decks, and after playing some Vintage Shops, I wouldn't mind testing it out maindeck.

Trinispheres is good against Turn 2-3 combo decks, tempo decks, aggro decks, and blue-based control, and is usually a main deck card. Thorn of Amethyst is good against Turn 1-2 combo decks like TES, Belcher, Tin Fins, and other glass cannon decks, which the main reason why I have that card in my SB, due to their popularity of those decks in my meta. It is not wrong to play both either, with Trinisphere in the main and Thorn in the side.

I do not play Trinispheres in my Welder or Post-less MUD decks because it doesn't fit what my deck wants to accomplish. I do play Trinspheres in the main whenever I do play with Cloudpost though. When I play my Post-less MUD deck, I play quite a few one drops and two drops per turn for the first few turns because I build them to be super aggressive, and Trinsipheres would only slow me down. At the same time, I don't really care to slow my opponent down, while Cloudpost builds would usually benefit from that. If you look at the average Cloudpost list, they play no one-drops and maybe ten-two drops, and a much higher mana curve. The mana curve in my Post-less decks are much lower compared to Cloudpost decks, so the design theory is different. I would advocate sticking with Trinispheres in the main if you are on the Cloudpost plan.

Also, I think it is dangerous to compare cards that are good in Vintage, and try to use the same justification in Legacy. In Legacy, Thorn is a poor main deck card because there are a lot of creature-based strategies, it only produces a marginal tax against most decks in Legacy, and it doesn't have a body attached to it.

The reason why Thorn in amazingly good in Shops is because Vintage tends to be light on creature spells, it acts as resource denial, and most importantly, it acts as mana source denial. You see, in Vintage, a lot of decks are super greedy with low land counts that are non-basic and relies on moxen, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, etc. for fast mana. It is not uncommon for a deck to have only 13-16 lands. Let's you are on the play and your opponent has Volc, Sapphire, Ruby, and Recall, which is a very good keep. If you do not play a Sphere effect, you opponent can play all four cards and go way ahead. If you play one sphere effect, your opponent can only play Volc and the moxen, but not the Recall. If you play two sphere effects in one turn, your opponent can't even play the moxen until they draw a second land. If you Waste or Strip Mine their land under sphere effects, it is pretty much good games because you are now way ahead of them in terms of resources, and you potentially locked them out from playing Magic. This is why Chalice is now restricted, because it was too harsh against the person on draw. This is also why it is very common for you to see additional lands in sideboards (a basic Mountain in blue-based control, Ghost Quarters in the shops mirror, Barbarian Rings in dredge, etc). This is why Stax is much more powerful as a strategy in Vintage compared to Legacy. It hits a lot more angles.

If you want to talk about Vintage, give me a PM. I am currently playing Null Rod Smokestacks.

[Stuart]

Trinisphere makes it much harder for your opponent to cast more than one spell per turn. Really messes up burn and infect. Also does work against pyromancer or mentor strategies. Having both puts your opponent in a very tough spot in regards to how they use their removal.


Trinispheres is good against Turn 2-3 combo decks, tempo decks, aggro decks, and blue-based control, and is usually a main deck card. Thorn of Amethyst is good against Turn 1-2 combo decks like TES, Belcher, Tin Fins, and other glass cannon decks, which the main reason why I have that card in my SB, due to their popularity of those decks in my meta. It is not wrong to play both either, with Trinisphere in the main and Thorn in the side.


Thanks guys! I might have given the wrong impression: I have no intention of dropping Trinisphere. It's a card with weaknesses that sometimes irk me, but it takes about 5 seconds for me to come around and recognize how great it is :laugh: As a basic test of that, just try to think about how often people Force it: Trinisphere makes a lot of decks sweat. In my (Cloudpost) build, Thorn gets 2 slots in the board. It's been great in that position, and while I have no intention of dropping it from the board, I also don't plan on maindecking it.

Played the weekly at Pat's Games tonight. 12ish players, I think? Went 2-1-1.

Round 1: Omnitell: 2-1
- Game I: He counters my Trinisphere, but my Lodestone, Wurmcoil, and Greaves quickly eat him. He only plays cantrips, Forces, and basic lands, so I don't really know what he's on.
- Game 2: (I don't know what he's on, but I hedge my bet and guess it's a Show and Tell deck. +1 Spine, -1 Sundering Titan.) Turns out I'm right. He gets an early Show and Tell. I have the Spine for his Omniscience, but he does obnoxious things with Cunning Wish, Firemind's Foresight, and Enter the Ants in response. Ouch.
- Game 3: (Same as game 2, but +2 Thorn, +1 Platinum Angel, -1 Wurmcoil, -1 Ugin. In retrospect, Sundering Titan would have been smarter than Platinum Angel) He counters my Chalice, but I stick a Thorn, Wurmcoil, and Forgemaster. He plays a Dream Halls, but is tapped out and I kill him next turn. Over the course of this game, I have a total of 5 Ancient Tombs (thanks to Vesuva), so I take a lot of damage :eek:

Round 2: Deadguy Ale: 2-0
- Game 1: Pretty grindy match. An early Sculler grabs my Wurmcoil. I Spine the Sculler, then play Wurmcoil + Greaves. However, he gets Batterskull + Jitte, kills off my Metalworkers, and eventually kills the Wurmcoil in combat . . . I luck out, topdeck a Forgemaster, activate it off the Greaves, and Blightsteel for the win.
- Game 2: (+2 Pithing Needle, -1 Metalworker, -1 Forgemaster.) Pretty durdly start for both of us, with him Needling my Forgemaster, us Wasting each other, and him Decaying my Monolith. Things aren't looking great when I have a pair of Sol Lands and a Cavern vs his Deathrite and Stoneforge, but I topdeck an Ugin one turn, Monolith the next, wipe the board, and he scoops.

Round 3: Grixis Tezz: 1-1-1
- Game 1: Same guy I played Tuesday, and every game is a grind. We both build up massive boards, but he never hits a Welder so my stuff is relatively safe. Bridge holds off my fatties for most of the game, but I Forgemaster out a Sundering Titan to blow up some lands, then eventually Forgemaster again for a Staff of Nin to ramp up my card draw and ping down his Tezzeret. Eventually a Spine eats the Bridge, and I swing for the win.
- Game 2: (-4 Lodestone, +2 Crucible, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Spine. I know he's got Needles so I'd like to board out some Ugins/Forgemasters, but I'm following L10's advice and trying not to board too much.) Another long grind whose details I don't remember, but I think eventually Tezz got me.
- Game 3: I keep a super-iffy opener, but at 1-1 with 5 minutes left in the round, I'm not playing very intelligently. We go to turns. He has Jace, 2 Welders and a Spellskite, so eventually he'd win. However, his deck doesn't have any fast kills, so we go to time.

Round 4: BUG: 0-2
- Game 1: He decays my Chalices etc, then plays a Stiflenaught not long therafter. I try to Forgemaster out a Blightsteel in response, but he Stifles the Forgemaster. Ew.
- Game 2: (+2 Crucible, +2 Ratchet Bomb -2 Forgemaster, -2 something. I'm tired.) I feel good starting with Turn 1 Chalice, Turn 2 Crucible. Unfortunately, he counters the Crucible and lands a turn 2 Confidant. That nets him 3 Goyfs over the next 3 turns, and he eats me alive.

#

Ever since I've started playing MUD, I've heard and read a lot of people talk about MUD as 1) a combo deck, 2) explosive, and 3) wildly inconsistent. I agree with 1 and 2 to a certain extent, but I feel more like it's multi-modal. Yeah, sometimes we land a quick Blightsteel and win, and sometimes we ramp into a few Lodestones & Wurmcoils. However, there are just as many (or more) games where I take a cool, calm, collected mindset and play for the long game. I expect some of my earl Chalices, Spheres, Metalworkers, etc to get countered or blown up, so instead I try to build up mana and eat counterspells until I can drop a well-timed Ugin, Sundering Titan, or whatever.

On the consistency note, I dunno. I guess if you're used to Top and Brainstorm, MUD might be frustrating. However, I find that I'm not mulling often and that the decks performs pretty reliably. I usually feel in control of what I'm doing, and when I lose, it's more because of my lack of interactivity than because MUD is a wild, unreliable engine. Likewise, topdeck mode feels fine. Yes, every other draw is likely to be a mana source, but the draws that aren't mana sources can all win games. That feels better than a topdeck mode where you're probably drawing mana, counterspells, or cantrips (which require further mana investment).

Obviously the deck has weaknesses (lack of interaction, poor card fixing, and troubles with Stifle/Waste/Needle/discard/artifact hate all spring to mind). However, after a month and a half playing MUD against a pretty diverse array of decks, I think its reputation is . . . strange.

[Bobmans]

"awesome Welder list."

Coming weekend i'l ve playing (after a long pause) on at a LGS. I still have to make up what i want to play. Either BUG Delver or MUD. Since i expect a lot of combo and Miracles ill probably go for MUD. But then i could go for Welder/Daretti or for Cloud w/ Ugin/Karn. In both cases with Forgemaster. I really like that list you posted, but what i really would like see is a very aggresive list (Cloudpost simply can't be that), with easy support of/for Ugin. What should i do...

[L10]

That's a tall order, my friend. I think you can support Daretti and Ugin, but I think you'd have to drop the Welder. I'd also add some copies of Voltaic Key and Thran Dynamo to help facilitate the mana issue. I may lose the Lodestone Golems too since they would only tax both Planeswalkers. Maybe something like this?

Land (23)
4x Wasteland
4x Great Furnace
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
3x Mountain

Creature (15)
4x Metalworker
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
3x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Sundering Titan
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Blightsteel Colossus

Planeswalker (5)
3x Daretti, Scrap Savant
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Artifact (17)
4x Grim Monolith
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Voltaic Key
2x Lightning Greaves
1x Thran Dynamo
1x Staff of Nin
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Batterskull

I may try a way to add Trinispheres too for protection. Maybe even a Razormane Masticore. I think Deretti is good enough for a splash itself, actually.

[Sibelius]

If you want to talk about Vintage, give me a PM. I am currently playing Null Rod Smokestacks.

If you want to talk about Stax in legacy the thread here in the source is getting slightly more interest than usual (usually none) at the moment.

Sib

[Runninonwater]

That's a tall order, my friend. I think you can support Daretti and Ugin, but I think you'd have to drop the Welder. I'd also add some copies of Voltaic Key and Thran Dynamo to help facilitate the mana issue. I may lose the Lodestone Golems too since they would only tax both Planeswalkers. Maybe something like this?

Land (23)
4x Wasteland
4x Great Furnace
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
3x Mountain

Creature (15)
4x Metalworker
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
3x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Sundering Titan
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Blightsteel Colossus

Planeswalker (5)
3x Daretti, Scrap Savant
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Artifact (17)
4x Grim Monolith
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Voltaic Key
2x Lightning Greaves
1x Thran Dynamo
1x Staff of Nin
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Batterskull

I may try a way to add Trinispheres too for protection. Maybe even a Razormane Masticore. I think Deretti is good enough for a splash itself, actually.

Im just looking at that list and i really want to see a 1 of Tanglewire, saccing the Citadels to get it back etc.
Maybe its win more? Should be able to keep a few things tapped.
But then again you do run a good amount of creatures... Maybe it just goes against what you want your deck to do.

EDIT: Btw guys and gals, where can i read up on matchups in this thread?

Played my first games with my MUD deck, won easily against elves preboard, after sideboarding he drew nullrod first game + Reclamation sage.
However i noticed that i should always check how many creatures he has on field, lost both games after sideboard to Natural Order for a Craterhoof while having 2 other creatures in play (deathrite and a Dryad Arbor). 16 damage just like that. aka Craterhoof Math.

Trinisphere should keep them in check for a while.

[Fry]

That's a tall order, my friend. I think you can support Daretti and Ugin, but I think you'd have to drop the Welder. I'd also add some copies of Voltaic Key and Thran Dynamo to help facilitate the mana issue. I may lose the Lodestone Golems too since they would only tax both Planeswalkers. Maybe something like this?

Land (23)
4x Wasteland
4x Great Furnace
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
3x Mountain

Creature (15)
4x Metalworker
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
3x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Sundering Titan
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Blightsteel Colossus

Planeswalker (5)
3x Daretti, Scrap Savant
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Artifact (17)
4x Grim Monolith
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Voltaic Key
2x Lightning Greaves
1x Thran Dynamo
1x Staff of Nin
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Batterskull

I may try a way to add Trinispheres too for protection. Maybe even a Razormane Masticore. I think Deretti is good enough for a splash itself, actually.

Something looks similar here... ;)

[L10]

Haha, yeah, I didn't want to just post your list without your permission. This is basically my take on your list, though, which is still very much a rough draft. I like the added constancy that Thran Dynamo and Key provides, and increase in threat density compared to your list, but at the cost of protection (Trinisphere).

[darkgh0st]

Played MUD today with some minor tweaks, adjusting for post-DTT ban.
-1 Myr Battlesphere, +1 Wurmcoil Engine
-1 Wasteland, +1 Vesuva (as we are not a tempo deck, and due to plan of naming Wasteland with increased Pithing Needles on the side)
SB changes:
-1 Crucible of Worlds, -1 Tsabo's Web, + 2 Pithing Needle
-1 Sundering Titan, +1 Karn Liberated

Meandeck MUD v1.06:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
3 Trinisphere
1 Staff of Domination
1 Staff of Nin
1 Spine of Ish Sah

1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls

SB:
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Powder Keg
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Coercive Portal
2 Karn Liberated
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Match 1: UWr Stoneblade, winning die roll

Game 1: i mull to 6. Mid-game, I was able to Chalice for 1 then Forgemaster for Blightsteel (1-0)

I sided in 2 Karn Liberated, 1 Ugin, 1 Coercive Portal, taking out 1 Lodestone Golem, 2 Wurmcoil, 1 Spine of Ish Sah

Game 2: Mull to 6. I get overwhelmed by Clique, Stoneforge-Batterskull, and TNN. I had a chance to Chalice for 2 and Ugin, but I ended up casting Ugin first, meeting Counterspell... A misplay that costed me the game. (1-1)

SB: -1 Trinisphere, +1 Lodestone Golem

Game 3: Keep my 7. I forgot what happened this game, but I won. (2-1)


Match 2: Bant Thopter combo, winning the die roll.

Game 1: I mulled to 6 keeping a Wasteland, another land, and four other cards. I thought he was playing BUG, so a Wasteland from his side means I'll be out. He mulls to 5 keeping a one-lander. I waste his only land and play Trinisphere two turns after, he scoops. (3-1)

SB: -4 Chalice, -1 Kuldotha Forgemaster, -1 Spine of Ish Sah, and a bunch of other stuff I don't remember. +3 Pithing Needle, +1 Coercive Portal, +2 Karn Liberated, +1 Ugin, +1 Trinisphere

Game 2: We both mull to six and keep. He has a 2nd turn Thopter Foundry, which surprises me. my 2nd turn was a Pithing Needle on Thopter Foundry. We ended up going to late game with him having an Ensnaring Bridge, Jace (which was Brainstorming him for at least 3 turns), and Engineered Explosives on 1. I played a Sundering Titan under a Cavern to wipe out all but two of his lands, but he chose to StP my Titan even if he had Bridge, leaving him only with Academy Ruins. I cast Ugin the turn after, uncountered and he scoops (realizing his misplay as well). (4-1)


Match 3: Death and Taxes, winning the die roll

Game 1: keeping my 7 with two Wastelands while he mulled to 6. I play Wasteland, he plays Port and Vial. I Waste his Port EoT. I play Tomb into Monolith.He ticks his Vial to 1 and plays Karakas. I play my 2nd Wasteland and waste his Karakas, also casting Chalice for 1. He ticks Vial to 2 and plays another Port. I go off with City, Greaves, Forgemaster,equip, sac Forgemaster, Monolith, and Chalice, keeping Greaves, and fetching for Blightsteel. He chumps with Serra Avenger. His only out was a white mana, Flickerwisp, and StP, which he doesn't have. (5-1)

SB: -4 Chalice of the Void, -1 Grim Monolith, -1 Metalworker, -1 Spine of Ish Sah, -1 Sundering Titan, +4 Pithing Needle, +1 Ratchet Bomb, +1 Powder Keg, +1 Karn Liberated, +1 Ugin

Game 2: I had two Pithing Needles on my opening hand, which I name Wasteland and Mangara of Corondor after he played it. He doesn't have Vial, but was beating me down with SFM-Batterskull, and Thalia. I get down to 12 with the help of my Tomb, but slowly get ahead with Staff of Nin, Forgemaster and Lodestone, which were used with the Pithing Needle on Wastteland to fetch for Staff of Domination. I kept on getting ahead drawing 2 to 3 cards a turn, going down to 8 before slamming Platinum Emperion and Ugin, to make him scoop. (6-1)


Match 4: I offered to draw but he has a philosophy of never drawing. I was playing Storm, Ad Nauseum style.

Game 1: I mull to 6. I misplay playing Glimmerpost first turn instead of Ancient Tomb. I would have been able to get a Lodestone turn two. Instead, he combos of on his second turn. (6-2)

Game 2: I mull down to 4, keeping a Vesuva, Ancient Tomb, Wasteland, and Lodestone Golem. I scry and see Chalice. Seemed like the perfect mull to 4 for me. I play my Tomb first, he Probes and Ponders. I draw the scryed Chalice, play Wasteland and waste his only land and Chalice for 1. He has land, Petal, Decays my Chalice and tries to go off going down to 1 life and still short. I draw a City of Traitors, cast Lodestone. He scoops. (7-2)

Game 3: I mull to 5 having two Chalices and a Lodestone in hand. He Probes and Therapy my Chalices away. I Trinisphere turn 2, and Lodestone turn 3... but he has Trinisphere Decayed and goes off, over my Golem and gets there. (7-3)

Overall today: 3-1

I was watching a 12-post player whenever I finished, and from what I understood, Pithing Needle was one of the answer to them being vulnerable to Wasteland. I'm feeling pretty satisfied having at least 3 Pithing Needles on my SB, but I'll be running 4 for now to see how it goes.

[keys]

Why not play a few Crucibles if there are a lot of Wastelands in your meta? Doesn't get locked under Chalice=1 and it's more aggressive play.

[Bobmans]

That's a tall order, my friend. I think you can support Daretti and Ugin, but I think you'd have to drop the Welder. I'd also add some copies of Voltaic Key and Thran Dynamo to help facilitate the mana issue. I may lose the Lodestone Golems too since they would only tax both Planeswalkers.

While the list looks fine, i am not sure about something like this. You are probably right about it being a tall order. Going for a Daretti control list requires are more staxlike approach. This is where Trinisphere, Golem and perhaps Tangle Wire shine more.

If i really want to jam Ugin i might just have to stick to Cloudbase. The Cloudbase hase the raw power and is more consistent, but i might need to sacrifice consistency iot gain explosiveness in the meta i am expecting. Combo and control have a hardtime dealing with that. Making a transformative sideboard to get a more control into Ugin list.



Thanks guys! I might have given the wrong impression: I have no intention of dropping Trinisphere. It's a card with weaknesses that sometimes irk me, but it takes about 5 seconds for me to come around and recognize how great it is :laugh: As a basic test of that, just try to think about how often people Force it: Trinisphere makes a lot of decks sweat.

Round 4: BUG: 0-2


Trinisphere has always been a better card for me then Chalice of the Void even. Most of the builds i have run the combination of 4 Trinisphere, 4 Chalice and 4 Lodestone Golem have been enough to win from combo decks. Every of those 3 named cards have pros and cons and perform different depending the matchup. Cards like Thorn or Sphere of Resistance where never needed and personally i would rather spend board slots on other cards.

BUG is my worsed ever match-up with MUD. How i hate to play against that deck, yug.

[darkgh0st]

Why not play a few Crucibles if there are a lot of Wastelands in your meta? Doesn't get locked under Chalice=1 and it's more aggressive play.

I was always running Crucible until last night. It has a very good potential of winning us games and possibly another one of those cards that needs to get removed or suffer vs fair decks. But it has also proven to be a liability at times for me. Against RG lands, Chalice has to be set at 2, so you can still Needle in if they try to combo. Without those two and with Crucible in play (whether Chalice and Needle was Krosan Gripped or I just didn't have it), a double Wasteland a turn through Exploration or even just a single Wasteland just sucked. There were also some times with BUG where a single Wasteland was enough for me not to play Crucible, or have Crucible Spell Pierced. Against DnT, playing the Crucible can pull you back a turn instead of playing a card that can potentially get you ahead. I guess the biggest reason for me to prefer Pithing Needle over Crucible is that I want Cloudpost to stick on the board instead of moving it back and forth between the yard and the battefield. Pithing Needles proved very useful for me last night over Crucible.

[Shawon]

Has anyone tested Hedron Archive? I am deciding to try it out but I have not run any games with it yet. The idea is that it's a ramp source that helps me cast my big cards but lategame once I have surplus mana I can use it to draw cards, giving me lots of flexibility. I was running a Crystal Vein as my 25th land anyway, and I think having the Archive seems like a better choice since it can be both mana and card draw.

[Stuart]

BUG is my worsed ever match-up with MUD. How i hate to play against that deck, yug.

Agreed. While I definitely want to practice and get better vs BUG, any matchup with Waste, Abrupt Decay, countermagic, discard, and (possibly) Stifle in the same deck is gonna be rough.


I was always running Crucible until last night. It has a very good potential of winning us games and possibly another one of those cards that needs to get removed or suffer vs fair decks. But it has also proven to be a liability at times for me. Against RG lands, Chalice has to be set at 2, so you can still Needle in if they try to combo. Without those two and with Crucible in play (whether Chalice and Needle was Krosan Gripped or I just didn't have it), a double Wasteland a turn through Exploration or even just a single Wasteland just sucked. There were also some times with BUG where a single Wasteland was enough for me not to play Crucible, or have Crucible Spell Pierced. Against DnT, playing the Crucible can pull you back a turn instead of playing a card that can potentially get you ahead. I guess the biggest reason for me to prefer Pithing Needle over Crucible is that I want Cloudpost to stick on the board instead of moving it back and forth between the yard and the battefield. Pithing Needles proved very useful for me last night over Crucible.

I'm learning to really appreciate Pithing Needle, but I still think I'd feel uncomfortable without Crucible somewhere in my 75. While the scenarios you've described are absolutely possible, when Crucible is the right option, it can be simultaneously lifesaving for you and backbreaking for your opponent. Plus if it gets Spell Pierced, that's one fewer threat your opponent will be able to counter later :smile:.


Has anyone tested Hedron Archive? I am deciding to try it out but I have not run any games with it yet. The idea is that it's a ramp source that helps me cast my big cards but lategame once I have surplus mana I can use it to draw cards, giving me lots of flexibility. I was running a Crystal Vein as my 25th land anyway, and I think having the Archive seems like a better choice since it can be both mana and card draw.

Definitely let us know how it goes for you. However, I'm avoiding it because there are better mana accelerators out there, and as a top deck, I'd probably always rather draw most other non-land cards in my deck (except for Grim Monolith, I guess).

[honz]

Has anyone tested Hedron Archive? I am deciding to try it out but I have not run any games with it yet. The idea is that it's a ramp source that helps me cast my big cards but lategame once I have surplus mana I can use it to draw cards, giving me lots of flexibility. I was running a Crystal Vein as my 25th land anyway, and I think having the Archive seems like a better choice since it can be both mana and card draw.

I would much prefer to have coercive portal, because the extra card it gives you will either be the mana you needed (land/metalworker/monolith) or something you can play with the 4+ mana you already have, and the portal only gets better and better than archive the more turns it stays in play. I mean, archive is probably better than thran dynamo...although that is not saying much.



@goblin welder lists

I think daretti, scrap savant is the reason to be playing red, and not welder (although if you are playing one, you should be playing both). Too often welder either eats removal immediately or just sits there doing nothing because you don't have a meaningful activation to do, two problems daretti just doesn't have. Additionally, daretti makes welder better, and not the other way around. This should be reflected in the relative numbers you run, i.e. you should have more darettis than welders

If you do decide to play red, I recommend abusing your new powers to their full extent. This means playing myr battlesphere, which is borderline playable in colorless lists, but becomes alot better with welder/daretti. Also thousand-year elixir is the nuts in red lists, either blanking opposing spot removal on your important cards, or getting double welder/metalworker/kuldotha activations (kuldotha -> myr battlesphere -> untap kuldotha -> sac tokens), or just giving haste to your recently played (or welded in) welder/metalworker/kuldothas. Even giving stuffa (wurmcoil engine) vigilance isn't too shabby. And I always feel obligated to mention godo, bandit warlord, because it totally might be good even though it isn't.

Blood moon is solid against BUG too I hear.

Of course if you play red you must make concessions, such as recognizing you will never reliably have 8 mana without playing terrible cards like thran dynamo and voltaic key, which means Ugin is off the table. You can make exceptions for expensive artifacts (emperion, battlesphere, titan, wurmcoil, blightsteal...etc) since you can cheat them into play with daretti/welder/metalworker/kuldotha.

[Bobmans]

Just some random thought i had today concerning red splashed MUD. Instead of running Sol lands -> run cloudpost manabase with mountain/great furnace. Just like Turbo Eldrazi does. The problem here is that Turbo plays cards that searches lands, which this couldnt. But that could turn Daretti into a different animal, being able to land Ugin and other big dudes. Thoughts?

[L10]

Well, Welder + Cloudpost has been done before.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=87312
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=73263

I am not sure I like the idea of losing the Sol Lands though, Ancient Tomb in particular. I'd much rather do something like:
4 Mountain
4 Great Furnace
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Vesuva
2 City of Traitors

City of Traitors is the weakest link in our land base, but is a necessary evil sometimes. I really want an Eldrazi Temple for artifacts, or a mini-Mishra's Workshop. Release is on a Commander set so it won't affect Modern. It would not impact Vintage much anyways since Shops are just going to swap Ancient Tomb for them.

I'd say the biggest draws to splashing red are:
1. Daretti
2. Blood Moon
3. Goblin Welder
4. Goblin Sharpshooter
5. Whipflare

[Airwave]

Well, Welder + Cloudpost has been done before.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=87312
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=73263

I am not sure I like the idea of losing the Sol Lands though, Ancient Tomb in particular. I'd much rather do something like:
4 Mountain
4 Great Furnace
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Vesuva
2 City of Traitors

City of Traitors is the weakest link in our land base, but is a necessary evil sometimes. I really want an Eldrazi Temple for artifacts, or a mini-Mishra's Workshop. Release is on a Commander set so it won't affect Modern. It would not impact Vintage much anyways since Shops are just going to swap Ancient Tomb for them.

I'd say the biggest draws to splashing red are:
1. Daretti
2. Blood Moon
3. Goblin Welder
4. Goblin Sharpshooter
5. Whipflare


Dropping the sol lands means a significantly dropping of the value of Chalice of the Void. In my view, these two are connected. If you go this route, you should drop Chalice altogether, which makes way for Expedition Map, Pithing Needle and/or Faithless Looting.

[Steak]

I would much prefer to have coercive portal, because the extra card it gives you will either be the mana you needed (land/metalworker/monolith) or something you can play with the 4+ mana you already have, and the portal only gets better and better than archive the more turns it stays in play. I mean, archive is probably better than thran dynamo...although that is not saying much.

Objectively I agree the portal is probably just better, but the archive is a bit more versatile giving you mana if you need it and cards if you need them. I've been pretty interested in it and will try it out tomorrow night. I've never liked Thran Dynamo because it's an expensive mana rock, but the possibility to get some card advantage back gives me hope.

So the question is, one or two?

[L10]

I like Thran Dynamo only in decks that plays with Voltaic Key because it can produce five mana. Thran Dynamo also frees up my Wasteland to start looking people down with Crucible of Worlds, smashing in with Mishra's Factory, or sacrificing Darksteel Citadel to Forgemaster. I do not see any value in Thran Dynamo in decks that has no utility lands. The fact that Hedron only produces two mana is a huge drawback for me.


Dropping the sol lands means a significantly dropping of the value of Chalice of the Void. In my view, these two are connected. If you go this route, you should drop Chalice altogether, which makes way for Expedition Map, Pithing Needle and/or Faithless Looting.
+1

Also, going with the Cloudpost route means I can't have Cavern of Souls for Welder, and the reliance on Cloudpost means I can't play Bloodmoon, both of which are reasons why I may consider splashing red in the first place.

[Silverflame]

Does anyone have a MUD Black Stax list to share?

[honz]

Well, Welder + Cloudpost has been done before.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=87312
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=73263


Not to make assumptions, but whoever made that first list clearly enjoys meth.


Also, going with the Cloudpost route means I can't have Cavern of Souls for Welder, and the reliance on Cloudpost means I can't play Bloodmoon, both of which are reasons why I may consider splashing red in the first place.

It also means you can't have wasteland, which makes your trinisphere/lodestones/chalices much worse.

[Bobmans]

Does anyone have a MUD Black Stax list to share?

Your best bet is the Braids Stax thread.

As for the Red Cloudpost list, i really like the input you guys delivered. Still working out the direction i want to take with it. Loosing Chalice wouldnt be a problem, as long as i can empower a manataxing lock strategy that finishes with Ugin or Karn. All working out of a stable manabase.

[Stuart]

I might not get to play my regular weekly on Thursday, so I went over to Whose Turn Is It Games tonight. 8 people meant 3 rounds.

Round 1: Sneak & Breach: 2-0
- Game 1: he plays an early Blood Moon, but nothing else. I build up Mountains, then kill him with Lodestone & Forgemaster.
- Game 2: (I don't know what he's on, so I take a guess that it's Dragon Stompy. -1 Chalice, +1 Spine.) I Waste him off an early land and kill him with a Sundering Titan.
- We're done early so we jam some games. Seems like he just drew poorly in our match, and we go like 70:30 in his favor during the casual games. That deck is nuts.

Round 2: Grixis Delver: 0-2
- Game 1: I know he's on Delver, so thinking that I'm clever I lead off with a Waste. He gets a Deathrite through before I Waste his land. The next turn, he gets another dual and another Deathrite, then a Delver, then a True Name. I get a Lodestone, but it's not enough.
- Game 2: (-1 Vesuva, -1 Emperion, -1 Spine, +2 Crucible, +1 Contagion Engine.) He sticks 2 Delvers before I get a Chalice, and I never catch up. Ancient Tomb eats me alive.

Round 3: Burn: 1-2
- Game 1: It's a buddy of mine, so I know he's on Burn. Turn 1 Chalice slows him down a lot. I get lucky and Metalworker survives past its summoning sickness, then I land a Platinum Emperion he can't answer.
- Game 2: (-2 Ugin, -1 Sundering Titan, -1 Spine, +2 Thorn, +1 Witchbane Orb, +1 Platinum Angel.) A turn 1 Guide and my Tombs chips away at me, then Price of Progress puts me at 4 and locks me out of playing off my Tombs.
- Game 2: Turn 1 Thorn and turn 2 Witchbane feels nice, but it involves 6 life from Ancient Tomb. He chips away at me, until I'm at 3. I have a Platinum Angel in hand, but can't play it off the 2 Tombs! I die.

Rough night. It's weird that I beat Sneak Breach and lost to Delver, but whatever. Does anyone have tips for the Burn matchup?

[darkgh0st]

anyone have tips for the Burn matchup?
Mull away hands with Tombs but no Chalice or Trinisphere. Overall, post lands take you further in this match up.

Only play enough lands to cast your spells, unless you got both Chalice for 1 and 2.

Some people suggest to Chalice for 2 first. They have more 1cc spells, and 8 2cc spells we have to worry about. I personally would still Chalice for 1 first.

[L10]

Have Wasteland up to destroy your own land in response to PoP, which includes Wasteland itself.

[Wilkin]

Mull away hands with Tombs but no Chalice or Trinisphere. Overall, post lands take you further in this match up.

Only play enough lands to cast your spells, unless you got both Chalice for 1 and 2.

Some people suggest to Chalice for 2 first. They have more 1cc spells, and 8 2cc spells we have to worry about. I personally would still Chalice for 1 first.

Thing to note (correct me if I'm wrong). U can chalice at 1 and then 2. But u can't do the opposite. If u have a chalice set at 2....and then try to set a chalice at 1, u are spending 2 mana on the 2nd chalice..... It gets countered by the first one.

[L10]

Correct, and you can't forget your own triggers either.

[Rikter]

Rough night. It's weird that I beat Sneak Breach and lost to Delver, but whatever. Does anyone have tips for the Burn matchup?

Chalice on 1 and trinisphere are your best friends. You need to be really careful about leading with a chalice on 2, as others have said it shuts you down for chalice on 1.

Ancient tomb is a massive liability if you aren't dropping chalice or 3sphere with it.

This is a MU where City of Traitors really shines; you can just lock them out entirely without going big on mana, so killing your own cities becomes a good thing, since it helps you play around price.

Do you have wurmcoil engine? He is really good! It's tough to lose a game if you get to attack with it.

You can aggressively keep low land count hands, especially with Grim Monolith in the mix since burn won't be able to keep you off of it. This also helps play around PoP.

Be mindful of when you activate forgemaster; they pretty much can't beat platinum emperion, but you don't want to give them a chance to kill you with forgemaster's ability on the stack.

Be wary of sideboarded ensnaring bridge. I have seen it around, it's definitely a thing. I will typically keep either an answer to the bridge itself (Spine) or something that can win from behind it (Ugin) in the main. Spine is cool because you can forgemaster it, Ugin is good because it hits their dudes. If you won game one and they bridge, it's also possible to just time them out off of Staff/Metalworker as long as they fetched more than you tutored with forgemaster/drew with staff...just gain 58 billion life and let them decide between being a jerkoff and wasting everyone's time or conceding on the spot.

Generally I think this is a pretty easy MU, that is in our favor. I have heard other people claim otherwise but in my experience those people are wrong/idiots.

[L10]

+1

Great post. Also, Rift Bolt at Suspend still cost 3 mana with Trinisphere out because your opponent is still casting it. This goes with any of our tax effects too. That is an interaction that the burn player usually misses, or pretends to.

I agree that burn match up is very much in our favor.

[Stuart]

Cheers guys - all great tips!
- I'm tempted to Chalice on 2, but 1 seems smarter. I've had games where Chalice on 1 shuts down their entire hand, which seems too good and probable to pass up.
- I forgot about Wasting my own land, though even if I'd remembered ti when it was an option, it would have been a tough call: I needed mana to land my Platinum Angel. Regardless, in that game I was at 3 and he'd boarded in Smash to Smithereens, so I was in a tight spot.
- I'm running 2 Wurmcoil, but they just don't seem to show up when I play Burn :frown: I've considered bumping it to 3, since Wurmcoil is very rarely a bad draw in any match.
- Oddly enough, I haven't run into Bridge in the Burn matchup, but it's definitely wrecked me elsewhere. I should be more cognizant of that, as I tend to side out Ugin, Spine, and Staff of Nin vs Burn.



Generally I think this is a pretty easy MU, that is in our favor. I have heard other people claim otherwise but in my experience those people are wrong/idiots.

Well you can count me as one of the idiots :laugh: . I'm still learning it, but so far I'm 1-2 in Burn matches. I think all the advice here should help.

[Rikter]

Cheers guys - all great tips!
- I'm tempted to Chalice on 2, but 1 seems smarter. I've had games where Chalice on 1 shuts down their entire hand, which seems too good and probable to pass up.
- I forgot about Wasting my own land, though even if I'd remembered ti when it was an option, it would have been a tough call: I needed mana to land my Platinum Angel. Regardless, in that game I was at 3 and he'd boarded in Smash to Smithereens, so I was in a tight spot.
- I'm running 2 Wurmcoil, but they just don't seem to show up when I play Burn :frown: I've considered bumping it to 3, since Wurmcoil is very rarely a bad draw in any match.
- Oddly enough, I haven't run into Bridge in the Burn matchup, but it's definitely wrecked me elsewhere. I should be more cognizant of that, as I tend to side out Ugin, Spine, and Staff of Nin vs Burn.



Well you can count me as one of the idiots :laugh: . I'm still learning it, but so far I'm 1-2 in Burn matches. I think all the advice here should help.

Thats a very good point about trinisphere and lodestone vs. suspended rift bolt. Suspend lets you cast for free, but the taxes still apply.

***PRO TIP*** It seems like once every other tournament, at the big ones, someone tries to Pithing Needle Metalworker or Grim Monolith. A few things regarding this:
1) These are legal targets for Needle
2) Because the tap abilities on Metalworker and Monolith are mana abilities, Needle does nothing to stop them (though you wouldn't be able to use Monoliths untap)
3) If someone does this, JUST LET IT HAPPEN AND SAY NOTHING. They will play their game out assuming that your Metalworker is just a 1/2 idiot, which you want them to do. Then when they inevitably call the judge when you use these mana abilities, you just point to the bottom of the card. This has happened to me, a lot, so you should be aware.

99% of the time it's chalice on 1 first. There have been some odd scenarios where for whatever reason the 2's were more frightening because of either price blowing me out, or smash blowing me out, but this requires certain board states...like if I have an Emperion out or something, at this point I don't care about the 1CMC, I really only care about Smash, or certain situations where I have spheres out to slow their clock enough so that the 1CMC spells won't be fast enough to kill me, but if they hit price I lose on the spot.

I like 3 Wurmcoil, especially in a deck that can do a lot of damage to itself off of Ancient Tomb. That bit of reach is really important. Also, Wurmcoil is NEVER dead. I don't think I have ever sided him out now that I think about it.

Burn can't search out bridge the way another deck might be able to, so even if they board it you probably won't see it, and it's not like smash where it's in every single sideboard x3-4, but people do play it. I would expect to see more of it actually now that omnitell is dead and sneak and show is back, it's one of the few ways burn can properly interact with that deck. I generally hedge and leave in something to deal with bridge, even though it's a lower % chance you see bridge, just because you are giving up very little. But generally, my only sideboards vs burn were to take out sundering titan and add in platinum angel, so it's not like I was leaving live cards in the board to play around something that might not even be in the other guys 75.


I will count you as wrong, not an idiot =D The idiots were all burn players trying to tell me that they did "extensive testing", and concluded somehow that not only was the MU in their favor, but that it was VERY favorable! I don't know who they played against or with what list, but I can tell you that my buddy who plays burn and tests against me knows damn well that I can end the game turn 1, and with alarming frequency, and that in large tournaments this year (100+ people) im 5-1, or 6-1 vs burn, with the loss coming off my deck imploding (mulls to 4...)

I've had to put down MUD for awhile, if you scan through some other posts you will see others who did the same thing, mostly because of the resurgence of Wasteland...then they took away my Chalice in Vintage so no more MUD in either format, which makes me sad. MUD is a very strong deck that has seriously game breaking cards in the starting 60 vs. every deck in the format, with a ton of sideboard options. I know I'll be playing it again in the future.

[Stuart]

+1

Great post. Also, Rift Bolt at Suspend still cost 3 mana with Trinisphere out because your opponent is still casting it. This goes with any of our tax effects too. That is an interaction that the burn player usually misses, or pretends to.

I agree that burn match up is very much in our favor.

Whoops, missed this post. The Trinisphere/Rift Bolt interaction actually came up last night. He paid 3.



***PRO TIP*** It seems like once every other tournament, at the big ones, someone tries to Pithing Needle Metalworker or Grim Monolith. A few things regarding this:
1) These are legal targets for Needle
2) Because the tap abilities on Metalworker and Monolith are mana abilities, Needle does nothing to stop them (though you wouldn't be able to use Monoliths untap)
3) If someone does this, JUST LET IT HAPPEN AND SAY NOTHING. They will play their game out assuming that your Metalworker is just a 1/2 idiot, which you want them to do. Then when they inevitably call the judge when you use these mana abilities, you just point to the bottom of the card. This has happened to me, a lot, so you should be aware.

. . .

I like 3 Wurmcoil, especially in a deck that can do a lot of damage to itself off of Ancient Tomb. That bit of reach is really important. Also, Wurmcoil is NEVER dead. I don't think I have ever sided him out now that I think about it.

. . .

I've had to put down MUD for awhile, if you scan through some other posts you will see others who did the same thing, mostly because of the resurgence of Wasteland...then they took away my Chalice in Vintage so no more MUD in either format, which makes me sad. MUD is a very strong deck that has seriously game breaking cards in the starting 60 vs. every deck in the format, with a ton of sideboard options. I know I'll be playing it again in the future.

Good reminder re. Needle. I was aware of that interaction, but I've probably forgotten it, too.

I might bump up to 3 Wurmcoil, but I'm not sure what I'd cut. All my toolbox creatures have done some good work for me, so maybe I'd drop something from elsewhere. Right now, my maindeck is:

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone
4 Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil
1 Emperion
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel
2 Ugin

4 Monolith
4 Chalice
3 Trinisphere
2 Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
1 Coercive Portal
1 Staff of Nin
1 Spine

4 Waste
4 Tomb
2 City
2 Cavern
12 Posts

Sorry to hear you've got MUD on hold. I agree that we feel worse off now than during the Dig era: before the Dig ban I was going 4-0/3-1, and after I feel like I'm more in the 2-1-1 range. That said, I'm trying to be optimistic: if everyone else's Wastes are better, so are ours!

Tough news about the Vintage restriction, though. I stopped playing Shops a while ago when 50%+ of my local meta was also on it. Not such a big problem with MUD.

[Rikter]

Whoops, missed this post. The Trinisphere/Rift Bolt interaction actually came up last night. He paid 3.



Good reminder re. Needle. I was aware of that interaction, but I've probably forgotten it, too.

I might bump up to 3 Wurmcoil, but I'm not sure what I'd cut. All my toolbox creatures have done some good work for me, so maybe I'd drop something from elsewhere. Right now, my maindeck is:

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone
4 Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil
1 Emperion
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel
2 Ugin

4 Monolith
4 Chalice
3 Trinisphere
2 Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
1 Coercive Portal
1 Staff of Nin
1 Spine

4 Waste
4 Tomb
2 City
2 Cavern
12 Posts

Sorry to hear you've got MUD on hold. I agree that we feel worse off now than during the Dig era: before the Dig ban I was going 4-0/3-1, and after I feel like I'm more in the 2-1-1 range. That said, I'm trying to be optimistic: if everyone else's Wastes are better, so are ours!

Tough news about the Vintage restriction, though. I stopped playing Shops a while ago when 50%+ of my local meta was also on it. Not such a big problem with MUD.

I would probably cut a lightning greaves for the third wurmcoil. Greaves is great, it does good things, but up until recently I had a string of cashes at big tourneys (8+ rounds) only running one greaves, using a list that is 90% or so identical to yours, so believe me you can get it done off of 1x greaves. I would also cut either 1x coercive portal or 1x staff of nin for a steel hellkite. That card is the truth, it has a ton of applications and it can just win the game on its own.

So regarding the wasteland conundrum...yes, wasteland is better in general now, but that card is just crippling to us. Playing a deck that relies on sticking lands that come into play tapped, with a much higher curve, makes wasteland ESPECIALLY good against us. We aren't going to win the game off of a 1cmc delver, and we don't have deathrite to play around it. Basically, of all the decks that get hurt by wasteland, we are hurt MUCH more than most. Some people recommend crucible, but for me the real issue is the loss of tempo that comes when you do nothing because your land comes in tapped, get it wasted and continue to do nothing, all the while getting beat down by a delver.

For the moment I'm running Miracles in Legacy, it's a great deck and I like it. I will without a doubt reprise MUD, if only because I have the deck foiled in Japanese and it's too pretty to not play...I think I just needed a break from it for a little bit, and Miracles has the wasteland resilience and card selection that MUD basically lacks. The deck can still win and be competitive, Its just that I needed a break from some of its flaws.

[Fry]

Thing to note (correct me if I'm wrong). U can chalice at 1 and then 2. But u can't do the opposite. If u have a chalice set at 2....and then try to set a chalice at 1, u are spending 2 mana on the 2nd chalice..... It gets countered by the first one.

Unless you have a Trinisphere in play, that is correct.

[L10]

The CMC is whatever you pay for X in the stack. In Chalice @1 case, X=2. Trinisphere doesn't modify the CMC on stack.

Edit: Well, technically, it's (X,X) = (1,1) = 2

[Rikter]

Trinisphere does not affect converted mana cost. Chalice triggers are linked to converted mana cost.

[Fry]

Ignore my "It's been a long day already" brilliance, been up far too long already.

[L10]

It's alright, Fry. We know. I have my fair share of gaffes.

[Airwave]

Thats a very good point about trinisphere and lodestone vs. suspended rift bolt. Suspend lets you cast for free, but the taxes still apply.

***PRO TIP*** It seems like once every other tournament, at the big ones, someone tries to Pithing Needle Metalworker or Grim Monolith. A few things regarding this:
1) These are legal targets for Needle
2) Because the tap abilities on Metalworker and Monolith are mana abilities, Needle does nothing to stop them (though you wouldn't be able to use Monoliths untap)
3) If someone does this, JUST LET IT HAPPEN AND SAY NOTHING. They will play their game out assuming that your Metalworker is just a 1/2 idiot, which you want them to do. Then when they inevitably call the judge when you use these mana abilities, you just point to the bottom of the card. This has happened to me, a lot, so you should be aware.



I think this happened to me three times now. The look on their face when you tap your metalworker and show your god-hand with 5 of 6 artifacts...... priceless :laugh:

[L10]

I like when people try to Stifle my Metalworker or Lion's Eye Diamond. Now I know I have to play around a Stifle.

[Rikter]

I like when people try to Stifle my Metalworker or Lion's Eye Diamond. Now I know I have to play around a Stifle.

You can add me to the "it's been a long day already" crew, because I can't tell if you really do want to play around stifle haha.

FYI for anyone else, stifle can't target mana abilities, so unlike trying to needle a mana ability, trying to stifle one is a judge call, Game Rules Violation.

[Bobmans]

Stifle can totally wreck MUD. Stifle the critical Ugin activation (-×) or Stifle a Forgemaster activation (4-for-1). Pithing Needle on Grim Monolith has actually cost me a game where i was unable to untap the darn thing for mana the turn later, so it slowed me enough to loose. Or how about Pithing Needle on Lightning Greaves.

[L10]

Well, I certainly wouldn't want my Forgemaster's ability to be Stifled. A 3/5 tank isn't terrible, I suppose. Important note: While Forgemaster with Lightning Greaves has shroud, the activated ability does not. Your opponent can still Stifle it. They may not know that though.

Honestly, the line "Mana abilities can't be targeted" in Stifle causes more confusion than anything else, because it is utterly useless. Mana abilities doesn't use the stack in the first place. On the other hand, Stifle can still target abilities that adds mana, like Deathrite Shaman and Mana Drain, because they are not mana abilities. You see the confusion?

Similarly, my opponent can't Stifle Revoker's static abilities because neither uses the stack or is triggered. A trigger ability will always have the words "When", "Whenever", or "At".

Edit:
Just in case anyone is confused, since mana abilities doesn't use the stack, your opponent can't respond to your Metalworker activation. So if your opponent tries to cast Clique in response Metalworker's ability, that's a game state violation.

[Jakobian]

Hello everyone. I put together some rules of thumb for MUD. Most of these are things I've seen other people mess up because they are unfamiliar with the deck, or they just want to do over the top things. The deck should be first and foremost a prison deck. It occasionally does infinite things, and it occasionally "combos" to get an instant win with blighsteel colossus, but the main goal is to squeeze your opponent's options down to nothingness, then land a protected fatty and kill them.

Jakobian's 10 guidelines of MUD
1. Thou shalt embrace the mulligan.

2. Thou shall not sacrifice prison pieces to Kuldotha Forgemaster*
*Unless you are 100% certain you will win the game by doing so, or if you're responding to someone blowing one up. (Or it's a redundant chalice of the void)

3. Thou shall not play city of traitors turn 1. If your only playable lands in your hand are city of traitors and vesuva, see #1.**
**It is acceptable if your hand has multiple grim monoliths, grim monolith + metalworker and you know your opponent can't deal with a turn 1 metalworker, or you know you're playing vs. storm, elves, or belcher and really need turn 1 trinisphere or chalice of the void at x=1

4. Thou shalt not use wastelands before playing a prison piece***
***This is for multiple reasons, you need mana early game more than you need to slow your opponent down, and vesuva can copy wastelands, which is highly relevant.

5. Thou shall not activate kuldotha forgemaster all willy-nilly. You don't have to win right now. Don't sacrifice a good board state for a one-shot victory unless you're forced to. It's much better to have a sure thing than to have an unprotected win condition. Obviously this is scenario dependent, but I almost never activate a forgemaster ASAP. It's generally better to be reactive or to wait until your opponent taps out. In general, people aren't running 4 Krosan Grips so there's no reason to be proactive unless it for sure wins you the game.

6. Thou shalt play Platinum Angel over Platinum Emperion. True-Name Nemesis doesn't have flying, and infect is a deck which exists. If you are tutoring for a way to not die, Platinum Emperion is probably not going to be doing any combat damage to your opponent, but Angel might.

7. Thou shall use staff of domination for more than just infinite combos. Staff of domination is awesome vs decks which rely on 1 dude getting in for combat damage (reanimator, show and tell varieties, dark depths combo, some maverick builds, D&T to a lesser extent (whichever dude has the equipment on it), infect to a lesser extent). Gaining 1 life or drawing 1 card during your opponent's end step is always relevant too. I have also used staff to untap my dudes and block my opponent's attacks. They usually pick up the staff and read it after I do stuff like that.

8. There's no such thing as "too far ahead". Got a lodestone golem down vs. storm? Jam the trinisphere down as well. Jam the chalice of the void. Jam another lodestone golem. Answers exist. Activate staff of domination to gain 1 life (or staff of nin to deal 1 damage, if that's your thing), use wasteland on your opponent's 1 land even though you have a trinisphere on the table already. Windmill slam another glimmerpost even though you're at 42 life already. Stuff happens.

9. Thou shall sequence properly. Don't cast a bare assed metalworker unless you can cast another one the next turn (or you're desperate, or playing vs a deck which can't kill a turn 1 metalworker and you're on the play...). Wait for the chalice or trinisphere to protect him. Don't cast a trinisphere before casting a grim monolith. Don't cast a kuldotha forgemaster unless you can for sure activate it the next turn, or you know with 100% certainty your opponent can't kill it.

10. Be patient. Most of the time you don't have to win right now.

[keys]

6. Thou shalt play Platinum Angel over Platinum Emperion. True-Name Nemesis doesn't have flying, and infect is a deck which exists. If you are tutoring for a way to not die, Platinum Emperion is probably not going to be doing any combat damage to your opponent, but Angel might.


Good list. But I think #6 is still up to personal choice. For me, the fat body vs. flying is not the key differentiator (although I could probably make a stronger case for the body-- much harder to burn down, faster clock...). Angel is better against Infect and other fringe situations like mill and Pact of Negation. But in the majority of cases, Emperion is better because he prevents you from losing life, rather than just putting up a Lich-esque shield that will make you immediately lose the game when it leaves play. If both cards had hexproof, Angel would be better, but they don't. That's why I normally play Angel in the SB for the fringe cases and Emperion in the MD.

[Rikter]

Hello everyone. I put together some rules of thumb for MUD. Most of these are things I've seen other people mess up because they are unfamiliar with the deck, or they just want to do over the top things. The deck should be first and foremost a prison deck. It occasionally does infinite things, and it occasionally "combos" to get an instant win with blighsteel colossus, but the main goal is to squeeze your opponent's options down to nothingness, then land a protected fatty and kill them.

Jakobian's 10 guidelines of MUD
1. Thou shalt embrace the mulligan.

2. Thou shall not sacrifice prison pieces to Kuldotha Forgemaster*
*Unless you are 100% certain you will win the game by doing so, or if you're responding to someone blowing one up. (Or it's a redundant chalice of the void)

3. Thou shall not play city of traitors turn 1. If your only playable lands in your hand are city of traitors and vesuva, see #1.**
**It is acceptable if your hand has multiple grim monoliths, grim monolith + metalworker and you know your opponent can't deal with a turn 1 metalworker, or you know you're playing vs. storm, elves, or belcher and really need turn 1 trinisphere or chalice of the void at x=1

4. Thou shalt not use wastelands before playing a prison piece***
***This is for multiple reasons, you need mana early game more than you need to slow your opponent down, and vesuva can copy wastelands, which is highly relevant.

5. Thou shall not activate kuldotha forgemaster all willy-nilly. You don't have to win right now. Don't sacrifice a good board state for a one-shot victory unless you're forced to. It's much better to have a sure thing than to have an unprotected win condition. Obviously this is scenario dependent, but I almost never activate a forgemaster ASAP. It's generally better to be reactive or to wait until your opponent taps out. In general, people aren't running 4 Krosan Grips so there's no reason to be proactive unless it for sure wins you the game.

6. Thou shalt play Platinum Angel over Platinum Emperion. True-Name Nemesis doesn't have flying, and infect is a deck which exists. If you are tutoring for a way to not die, Platinum Emperion is probably not going to be doing any combat damage to your opponent, but Angel might.

7. Thou shall use staff of domination for more than just infinite combos. Staff of domination is awesome vs decks which rely on 1 dude getting in for combat damage (reanimator, show and tell varieties, dark depths combo, some maverick builds, D&T to a lesser extent (whichever dude has the equipment on it), infect to a lesser extent). Gaining 1 life or drawing 1 card during your opponent's end step is always relevant too. I have also used staff to untap my dudes and block my opponent's attacks. They usually pick up the staff and read it after I do stuff like that.

8. There's no such thing as "too far ahead". Got a lodestone golem down vs. storm? Jam the trinisphere down as well. Jam the chalice of the void. Jam another lodestone golem. Answers exist. Activate staff of domination to gain 1 life (or staff of nin to deal 1 damage, if that's your thing), use wasteland on your opponent's 1 land even though you have a trinisphere on the table already. Windmill slam another glimmerpost even though you're at 42 life already. Stuff happens.

9. Thou shall sequence properly. Don't cast a bare assed metalworker unless you can cast another one the next turn (or you're desperate, or playing vs a deck which can't kill a turn 1 metalworker and you're on the play...). Wait for the chalice or trinisphere to protect him. Don't cast a trinisphere before casting a grim monolith. Don't cast a kuldotha forgemaster unless you can for sure activate it the next turn, or you know with 100% certainty your opponent can't kill it.

10. Be patient. Most of the time you don't have to win right now.

Nice list, some thoughts:

1) Properly mulliganing with this deck is critical, you are 100% correct here.

2) I blow up the prison pieces all the time, it really just depends on the deck you are facing.

4) This is really dependent on a lot of variables

5)I usually am very proactive about activating Forgemaster, especially if sundering titan is available. I may not NEED to win right now, but if it's possible to do so then that's the line.

6) Platinum Angel is also much easier to kill than platinum emperion. Against the infect deck, where Angel actually matters, you still may not be attacking with it because of Inkmoth Nexus. There are good reasons to run one and not the other. (I have both in the 75)

7) You are spot on about the staff, all the modes have uses.

8) This is also generally true, especially since the redundant pieces can fuel forgemaster, but there are plenty of times when I hold them in case I hit metalworker.

9) This is something I would not codify into a hard and fast rule. There are situations where you run the 3sphere before monolith, there are situations where you just run the bare metalworker, even if you know they can possibly kill it, there are situations where you run out forgemaster without enough stuff to activate it so that he is live on resolution of the third artifact, even if they can possibly kill it.

10) I'm sort of iffy on this one, I'm aggressively looking to put the game away. There are situations where yeah, you have to wait, but my overall philosophy is to aggressively execute my plan..."Here it is, deal with it or you lose" Sometimes they deal with it, often times they don't. You will wind up losing some games where waiting longer would yield victory, but I believe this is the minority.

Overall though, a nice list with some good stuff on it, we just have different philosophies on the deck. I don't consider MUD a prison deck, not in Legacy anyways. It's more midrange than anything, with combo elements. I rely more on the ramp aspect than the prison pieces, because the stuff you ramp into is so balls to the wall stupid that if you succeed in landing it, it doesn't really matter if they are locked out or not. Hell, even just landing wurmcoil engine is going to be enough to win a lot of games.

[Stuart]

Nice list - thanks Jakobian. I'm putting together a MUD tips/strategy/wisdom guide for myself, so I'll throw this in there. Rikter covered some good points in his reply, but my thoughts are:


. . .
6. Thou shalt play Platinum Angel over Platinum Emperion. True-Name Nemesis doesn't have flying, and infect is a deck which exists. If you are tutoring for a way to not die, Platinum Emperion is probably not going to be doing any combat damage to your opponent, but Angel might.
. . .
8. There's no such thing as "too far ahead". Got a lodestone golem down vs. storm? Jam the trinisphere down as well. Jam the chalice of the void. Jam another lodestone golem. Answers exist. Activate staff of domination to gain 1 life (or staff of nin to deal 1 damage, if that's your thing), use wasteland on your opponent's 1 land even though you have a trinisphere on the table already. Windmill slam another glimmerpost even though you're at 42 life already. Stuff happens.
. . .
10. Be patient. Most of the time you don't have to win right now.

6) I think it's absolutely wise to run both Angel and Emperion in your 75. As you pointed out, Infect is a real deck. So is Burn. Emperion is difficult for a lot of decks to play around, it makes Ancient Tomb an amazing land, and even when life isn't relevant, a topdecked 8/8 usually isn't horrible either.

8) In what's otherwise a good matchup for us, you probably don't want to puke your hand vs Miracles. Terminus punishes greedy plays.

10) I absolutely agree with this. There are times MUD can explode, but I've found that if I'm patient, I can usually outplay most decks' long games.




Overall though, a nice list with some good stuff on it, we just have different philosophies on the deck. I don't consider MUD a prison deck, not in Legacy anyways. It's more midrange than anything, with combo elements. I rely more on the ramp aspect than the prison pieces, because the stuff you ramp into is so balls to the wall stupid that if you succeed in landing it, it doesn't really matter if they are locked out or not. Hell, even just landing wurmcoil engine is going to be enough to win a lot of games.

It's funny how MUD is perceived so many different ways, by both its pilots and other players alike. I guess I'd agree with your definition; it's a little too aggressive to be a pure prison deck, but it probably feels pretty prison-y if you're on the other side of a Chalice, Trinisphere, and Lodestone.

#

Quick tourney report. Went in for the weekly at Pat's Games last night. Only 8 people, which was weird, but good enough for 3 rounds.

Round I: Food Chain: 2-1
- Game 1: I get some quick lock pieces and then Lodestone for the beats.
- Game 2: I keep a very iffy hand of 5 lands, a Monolith, and a Greaves. Not sure what I was thinking, and it becomes even iffier when he Thoughtseizes my Greaves. I topdeck some good lock pieces and threats, but he still gets his combo in place and wipes my board with Tidespout.
- Game 3: Quick lock pieces hold him up, then a Sundering Titan closes it down.

Round II: Hedron Crab Turbo Mill!!!!!: 1-2
- Game 1: He drops a turn 1 Hedron Crab, then a turn 2 Hedron Crab. He counters my lock pieces and quickly mills me out with fetches, Mind Funeral, etc.
- Game 2: My lock pieces stick and slow him down, but he still gets close to milling me out (I'm sweating after he mills the Angel I boarded in). I Forgemaster a last minute Blightsteel for the win.
- Game 3: He plays through my lock pieces and Ghost Quarters me off my lands for a while. With 3 cards left in my library, an Angel in my hand, and a board of Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, and a tapped Monolith, I topdeck a Vesuva to untap the Monolith. He mills my last 3 on his turn, so I die before I can cast the Angel.

Round III: Jund: 2-1
- Game 1: Another new matchup for me, and it's ugly. Game 1 we trade scary creatures for a while, until it's just Liliana vs Ugin. He ultimates Liliana, offering me all my lands or Ugin. I take Ugin, kill Lili, and then clean it up with Ugin bolts.
- Game 2: A long grind, with Wurmcoil vs Goyfs. Eventually he kills my creatures, then Bloodbraids into a Goyf and kills me.
- Game 3: Another long grind, but when I follow up a Lodestone with a Sundering Titan, he's too limited and I get him a few turns later.

Thoughts:
- Hedron Crab!!! I was really happy to see this deck, and the guy went 3-0 with it.
- In between rounds I played some casual games vs the Food Chain player's Infect deck, as I didn't have much experience with the match. Even without boarding in Angel, this seems like a really favorable matchup for us. Does everyone agree?
- What do you all think of Jund? It seems like an ugly matchup, but slightly in our favor. Once again, Kolaghan's Command is scary.

[Rikter]

It's funny how MUD is perceived so many different ways, by both its pilots and other players alike. I guess I'd agree with your definition; it's a little too aggressive to be a pure prison deck, but it probably feels pretty prison-y if you're on the other side of a Chalice, Trinisphere, and Lodestone.




One of my favorite things about the deck is that you have prison lines, combo lines and midrange lines. It can make it difficult for people who are unfamiliar with the list to plan out their strategy, i.e. you prison and grind them out game 1 so they buckle down for a long game, then game 2 they are dead on turn 2 because you went off with metalworker boots. This is part of the reason I think it is hard to make hard and fast rules, because this deck is VERY non linear.

I read an article about this on SCG at some point, about how the guy liked miracles because its gameplan was the same every time, and he valued the consistency. I prefer the non-linear decks; sure, I don't know what my game plan is going to be until I see my opening grip. But if I, the pilot, have no idea what kind of trajectory the game is going to have, then what does that say about YOUR ability to predict it? At least I know my full list, but you are in the dark. I like that advantage.

If I had to guess, Jakobian is running a list with more card advantage cards in it, coercive portals and such, and that is why he is looking for the longer game, and trying to grind them more. My list has no such cards; instead of trying to win a card advantage battle, I am looking to win the card quality battle instead...sure, you can have delver, but I have steel hellkite, have a goyf, I have sundering titan, deathrite shaman for ramp? allow me to introduce metalworker, oh you can ponder/brainstorm to look for cards? I just forgemaster them straight onto the field, that sort of thing. This is why my responses to his list are what they are, and why our philosophies differ. A lot of it will have to do with our differing compositions.

[Jakobian]

This is the list I run. I have something like 10+ top8 finishes in 40+ player tournaments with this list (or very similar).


4 wasteland
4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
4 vesuva
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb


4 metalworker
4 kuldotha forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 wurmcoil engine
1 sundering titan
1 platinum angel
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon


4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 grim monolith
2 Lightning greaves
1 spine of ish sah
2 staff of domination



Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle
2 Batterskull
1 Ratchet bomb
1 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon
1 Sundering Titan
2 Karn Liberated
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Orbs of Warding
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Tormod's Crypt

[L10]

Thoughts:
- Hedron Crab!!! I was really happy to see this deck, and the guy went 3-0 with it.
This is awesome. I love Legacy. Sometimes I play Greg Hatch's Artificer's intuition for kicks.

[Jakobian]

This is awesome. I love Legacy. Sometimes I play Greg Hatch's Artificer's intuition for kicks.

I have that decklist bookmarked but man it looks like such a slow "combo" deck. Interesting but hella difficult to tell if you can "go off" with it.

[Stuart]

One of my favorite things about the deck is that you have prison lines, combo lines and midrange lines. It can make it difficult for people who are unfamiliar with the list to plan out their strategy, i.e. you prison and grind them out game 1 so they buckle down for a long game, then game 2 they are dead on turn 2 because you went off with metalworker boots. This is part of the reason I think it is hard to make hard and fast rules, because this deck is VERY non linear.

I read an article about this on SCG at some point, about how the guy liked miracles because its gameplan was the same every time, and he valued the consistency. I prefer the non-linear decks; sure, I don't know what my game plan is going to be until I see my opening grip. But if I, the pilot, have no idea what kind of trajectory the game is going to have, then what does that say about YOUR ability to predict it? At least I know my full list, but you are in the dark. I like that advantage.

Nice job perfectly summarizing an opinion I've held but have been unable to articulate! This is why the MUD thread rocks.


This is the list I run. I have something like 10+ top8 finishes in 40+ player tournaments with this list (or very similar).


The list looks very solid, and obviously your record speaks for itself. However, I'm just wondering: have you tried and disliked Cavern of Souls? Obviously it hurts when we get flooded with them, but as a 2-of, it's been awesome for me.


This is awesome. I love Legacy. Sometimes I play Greg Hatch's Artificer's intuition for kicks.

Yeah that match was Legacy at its best. And you've got my support on Artificer's Intuition: I ran into it once when I was on Burn, until I had an Eidolon down that deck was scary!

[Jakobian]

Nice job perfectly summarizing an opinion I've held but have been unable to articulate! This is why the MUD thread rocks.



The list looks very solid, and obviously your record speaks for itself. However, I'm just wondering: have you tried and disliked Cavern of Souls? Obviously it hurts when we get flooded with them, but as a 2-of, it's been awesome for me.



Yeah that match was Legacy at its best. And you've got my support on Artificer's Intuition: I ran into it once when I was on Burn, until I had an Eidolon down that deck was scary!

I haven't tried cavern of souls. I never felt the need for it because I feel I am good at baiting counterspells and trinisphere is usually enough to make the fatties stick. I'd rather have vesuva or wasteland instead.

[Wilkin]

GPT Trial. 31 players. Went 3-2. Boo. Lost my win and in.

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Grim Monolith
2 Lotus Petal
2 Staff of Domination
1 Staff of Nin
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Wasteland

Side. 4 Pithing Needle. 1 Karn Liberated. 2 Faerie Macabre. 2 Tormod's Crypt. 1 Batterskull. 1 Duplicant. 2 Powder Keg. 1 Ratchet Bomb. 1 Crucible of Worlds.

Round 1 Infect. Lost 2-1.
Game 1 he has a sketchy keep, no infect dudes or even a Hierach. I'm able to land a Metalworker and Wurmcoil gets there.
Game 2 he has turn 1 Glistener Elf and turn 2 Blighted Agent. I land a Trinisphere late and then he tries to Force of Will my Lodestone Golem when I had Cavern on Golem. A big oops on his part but his Blighted Agent and 3 lands gets there by casting Invigorate.
Game 3. I am mana screwed. He casts the Delve spell for the win.

Round 2. Shardless Bug. Win 2-0
Game 1. Metalworker + Staff of Domination = Infinite fun times. Well for me anyway.
Game 2. He has 2 Goyfs but I resolve a Wurmcoil Engine which buys me the time to drop an Ugin.

Round 3. Burn Win 2-1
Game 1. He's on the play. I'm on the draw on 5 cards. Ancient Tomb. Petal. Trinisphere. Cloudpost. Cloudpost. My scry is a Lodestone which I leave there. He goes mountain and swing with Swiftspear. My turn I slam Trinisphere via Tomb and Petal. His turn he drops no lands and swings again for 1. I'm able to drop Lodestone followed by another Lodestone and he doesn't draw another land.
Game 2. I keep the 7. A Metalworker turn 2, puke stuff out (2 Metalworkers). He goes Goblin Guide swing. My Metalworkers died to removal and then I die to Price of Progress.
Game 3. Another Mull to 5. Chalice of the Void. Ancient Tomb. Lotus Petal. Grim Monolith. Steel Hellkite. Scry is a City of Traitors which I leave there. So I Chalice on 1 turn 1. Turn 2 Steel Hellkite. Crossing fingers there's no Smash to Smithereens. Turn 4 I cast Ugin. GG.

Round 4. UR Landstill win 2-1
Game 1. A close one. He kills my early Metalworkers and Lodestones. He even has Wasteland + Crucible Mid-late Game. I'm able to resolve 2 Forgesmasters. One dies to a Snapcaster block, flashback Bolt but luckily the other Forgemaster ends up killing Jace the Mind Sculptor. So for a few turns he's drawing just lands, I resolve a Staff of Domination and despite there being a recurring Wasteland theme, I have enough mana to draw a card most of the time. Forgemaster is basically a Siege Mastodon for quite a few turns knocking him down to 7.
The critical part was when I cast a Chalice on 1. I know the deck plays Stifle (it's close to Lam Phan's list at Grand Prix New Jersey) so I really didn't want to tutor until I know I can. Chalice resolves. I then Cast ensnaring Bridge just to get another artifact. It resolved. He had a Counterspell but for some reason didn't counter the Chalice. So I then Sacrifice the Forgemaster, Bridge and Staff to get Sundering Titan. I kill 3 lands (Tropical, Volcanic and Basic Island). He still has 4 lands and a Crucible out but isn't able to deal with Titan and a Lodestone that comes in the next turn uncounterable because of Cavern.
Game 2. I'm wasted out of the game. With Crucible.
Game 3. I keep a hand of Petal, Needle, 2 Trinispheres, 2 Cloudposts and a Glimmerpost. I play petal, play Needle naming Wasteland, play Cloudpost. Next turn I try and resolve a Sphere but it's forced. Which is fine. I played the other sphere and it resolved. Eventually I'm able to resolve a Staff of Nin and Ugin. His keep consisted of a lot of Bolts.

Round 5. MUD. Lose 2-0
Mirror. Gross. And against a guy who always plays MUD. I don't. His Metalworkers got online faster than mine and puked out more shit than me. So I asked him about sideboarding. I took out Chalices, Spheres and Sundering Titan put in a Karn and the 2 Mana Ratchet and Powder Keg and Batterskull. I left in Lodestone by accident but he says that's fine, he did too. He said he left it in since it's still a 5/3 beater.


NOTES:
-I was 3-1 going into round 5, but since I lost round 1 my tiebreakers were crap. So I had to play the last round and against the mirror. Any other matchup and I would have been fine as there were lots of 3 Color Delver decks and Miracles around.
-Probably should have mulled the game 2 MUD hand vs Burn. No Chalice or Sphere or turn 2 Wurmcoil. 2 Metalworkers aren't going to live against a Burn deck.
-Sundering Titan was a boss. I fetch it just as much as Blightsteel. Staff of Domination was also amazing, drawing several cards vs Landstill and winning with Metalworker vs Shardless. I definitely won't go back down to 1 Staff of Domination.
-Needles in the board were good. Mostly named Wasteland.
-Duplicant should have been something else. Bridge main I think should maybe be Batterskull.

[Stuart]

GPT Trial. 31 players. Went 3-2. Boo. Lost my win and in.

Tough luck - sorry man. Still, 3-2 isn't bad when you don't play MUD regularly. My suggestions:
- I'd cut the 2 Petals for 2 more Grim Monolith. While Monolith only ramps you by 1 the turn you play it, if you sit on it for a turn it can let you drop something huge. Likewise, its untap ability comes up more than you'd think. Also, not having to sacrifice it makes it good Forgemaster food.
- I think you're right to consider swapping Bridge and Batterskull. Alternatively, Bridge could become a 4th Forgemaster or a Coercive Portal.
- You said Duplicant was underwhelming, but how was Powder Keg? Some other sideboard stuff I've been enjoying that you might wanna try would be: Platinum Angel (primarily for Infect), Contagion Engine (I have it in there for Pyromancer and Mentor, but it's useful in a lot of matches), or Ratchet Bomb (again, good vs tokens and flipped Delvers).

[Wilkin]

Powder Keg was ok. I boarded it in vs Infect, Shardless BUG and Landstill (for Manlands). I have 2 of these instead of 3 Ratchet Bomb because it can hit Manlands. However, Ratchet Bomb and Keg are slow to remove creatures with CMC 2 or higher.

I'm going to switch the Batterskull and the Ensnaring Bridge. Bridge is nice but it doesn't put pressure on the opponent. Duplicant is probably going to be another threat, not sure what yet.

I like the Petals, leaving those in for now. I find a lot of my free wins are the result of having Chalice on 1 turn 1. But I can't go with 4 City of Traitors, I already hate having openers where my only lands are Vesuvas and Cities. I see what you are getting at though. A turn 1 Monolith threatens a Wurmcoil Engine or even a Karn the next turn.

[MGB]

So how did everyone do at Eternal Extravaganza 3?

I didn't do so well as I went 3-4 drop. I felt as if my decklist might not be that optimal and I also made quite a few mistakes.

I know I saw L10 there, but didn't see how he was doing or what he was playing against outside of a match where I saw him lose to Death n Taxes where he was 1 mana short of casting Ugin to wipe the board...

[L10]

Hey, MGB, were you playing Arcbound Ravager + Tangle Wire?

I was debating whether or not to play MUD for EE3 because EE1 and EE2 both had an obscure amount of MUD decks, and I think people were prepared for it. This is because a great deal of the people there really came for Vintage, and many of them play Shops, so they have all the cards to play MUD. Going in, I was deciding to play my experimental list, Welder MUD, ANT, TES, Goblins, Death and Taxes, or Maverick. I almost went for ANT but my buddies convinced me to play my experimental list. I didn't do too hot either, going 2-3. Three of my losses came from Null Rod, and me having a set of Darksteel Citadels in my deck. I decided to drop early to play some 9394 with non-Legacy players and practice for Vintage the day after. I went 3-2 in Vintage with this build:
http://i.imgur.com/2IUMQ7fl.jpg
The most broken thing I did that day was Cavern on Humans, Lotus for White, Stony Silence, SSG,
Scab-Clan Berserker.
The most broken thing my opponent did was Synod, Ruby, Sol Ring, Key, Thoughtcast, Sapphire, Time Vault, untap Time Vault.

Welcome to Vintage. I decided to drop early to celebrate my birthday (just turned 27 today) with my family. Afterwards, my buddies from the FGC reminded me to play the Street Fighter V beta. Overall, pretty great weekend. Street Fighter V is awesome. Can't wait for Evo.

This was the experimental list I ended up with:

Creature (19)
1x Blightsteel Colossus
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Metalworker
1x Myr Battlesphere
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
2x Steel Hellkite
2x Wurmcoil Engine

Planeswalker (2)
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Artifact (17)
4x Chalice of the Void
1x Crucible of Worlds
4x Grim Monolith
3x Lightning Greaves
1x Staff of Nin
2x Thran Dynamo
2x Voltaic Key

Land (22)
4x Ancient Tomb
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x City of Traitors
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
2x Maze of Ith
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Platinum Emperion
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Sundering Titan
2x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Trinisphere

Round 1: Grixis Control (lost the die roll)
Game 1 (Mull to 5): Turn 1, Ancient Tomb, Chalice. Turn 2, Grim Monolith, Crucible, Wasteland
Game 2 (Mull to 6): Emperion + Greaves was too strong. Urborg saved me 8 life that round.
1-0

Round 2: Grixis Control (lost the die roll)
Game 1 (Mull to 6): Turn 1 Lightning Greaves, Turn 2 Metalworker -> Wurmcoil
Game 2 (No Mull): Turn 1 Delver, Turn 2 Brainstorm on upkeep + Bolt on Metalworker, Turn 3 Null Rod
Game 3 (Mull to 5): Turn 2 Null Rod, I had two Darksteel Citadels in my hand
1-1

Round 3: Death and Taxes (won the die roll)
Game 1 (No Mull): Long, grindy match-up. Urborg came in handy as it made my Ancient Tomb having two modes. Got there with Steel Hellkite
Game 2 (No Mull): He mulled to 4 and it was bad for him. I kind of felt bad.
2-1

Round 4: Death and Taxes (lost the die roll)
Game 1 (Mull to 5): He locked me out of mana, but I managed to sneak in a Steel Hellkite when he stopped Porting. Didn't matter, since he had the alpha strike next turn.
Game 2 (Mull to 6): Turn 1 Ancient Tomb, Lightning Greaves. He Wastes it. Turn 2 City of Traitors, Grim Monolith, Metalworker, Lodestone Golem. His buddy started laughing his ass off.
Game 3 (Mull to 5): I think MGB watched this game. He swords 3 of my Metalworkers. I had a Voltaic Key out. All I needed was Grim Monolith or Thran Dynamo to slam down an Ugin. I also had two Steel Hellkites stuck in my hand.
2-2

Round 5: RUG Delver (lost the die roll)
Game 1 (Mull to 6): Got wrecked by turn 2 Stifle on Forgemaster
Game 2 (No Mull): Two 3/5 and a 5/3 is apparently enough. Urborg saved me 4 life.
Game 3 (Mull to 6): Turn 3 Null Rod and I drew some Citadels.
2-3

If I were to do this tournament again, I'd probably have played ANT. But assuming I were to play this deck again, I'd drop all the Citadels for Cavern of Souls. Urborg was great to me. I may even go 1/1 split between Urborg and Darsteel Citadel if I play the full set of Caverns. Tabernacle and Maze of Ith were okay. They never felt needed, and I think they may be too slow, as it stops me from playing a mana land that turn. It never hurt me either.

Also, out of habit, I wore my work badge. So people would stop me sometimes thinking I am employee until the read "Honeywell", "Software Engineer". lol

[Stuart]

So how did everyone do at Eternal Extravaganza 3?


This looked awesome - wish I coulda been there.



If I were to do this tournament again, I'd probably have played ANT. But assuming I were to play this deck again, I'd drop all the Citadels for Cavern of Souls. Urborg was great to me. I may even go 1/1 split between Urborg and Darsteel Citadel if I play the full set of Caverns. Tabernacle and Maze of Ith were okay. They never felt needed, and I think they may be too slow, as it stops me from playing a mana land that turn. It never hurt me either

Really interesting thought on Urborg. I might hafta try it, cause Tomb has done a ridiculous amount of damage to me lately.

On a side note, happy birthday! I turn 27 tomorrow, oddly enough.

[Fry]

This is weird, we must all me 27 or something... My 27th was last month... The MUD must really stick.

[Jakobian]

Ha! When I was your age I won 5 dual lands in one weekend with MUD...which was last year... I'm 28.

[Rikter]

Ha! When I was your age I won 5 dual lands in one weekend with MUD...which was last year... I'm 28.

Just got back from EE3, was surprised at the amount of MUD lists that were present, made me really regret not bringing mine. I played mentor miracles and got smashed; the vintage went a lot better, my mentor list there performed well, I lost my win and in in the final round to Joel Lim in what would have been my most epic win had I gotten there:

So the situation was bad, Joel had True Name out and 1 card in hand, and I was at 3 life. I have time vault in play, but also mana crypt. I spin top EOT and find Demonic Tutor, then I win my crypt flip. I'm still in this! I DT and try to figure out my line. The only way that I can win is to DT for Voltaic Key, stick the key, start to go off with Time Vault, and then win mana crypt flips until I can find the single disenchant in my deck, that represents my only remaining way to get rid of the crypt. His last card was mental misstep, which he obviously used on the key when I tried to play it. I had no backup so I just lost. For funsies, we rolled my next crypt roll, which I won! Disenchant was sitting in the top 3 cards as well...that would have been a crazy game to win for sure.

Jakobian, our lists are a lot closer than I thought they would be! I run the caverns and an extra Ugin instead of maxing out the vesuva slot. Just goes to show you theres more than one way to play the deck.

[L10]

I can ask my friend for the stats of EE3 but I think there was more MUD representation in EE1 and EE2. I played Goblins at EE2 and I faced three MUD players, three DnT players, and one Shardless BUG player. For my ANT deck, I actually sided in two Hurkyl's Recall in preparation for EE3. Medea from MtG Salvation fought three MUD decks at EE3, so there was still quite a few of us.

Sounds like a tight match you had. Did you happen to face any Shops on Sunday? I didn't face any. It was all Blue Based Control decks, and one TPS for me.

It's funny that we are all around the same age. Happy birthday, Stuart!

[Rikter]

I can ask my friend for the stats of EE3 but I think there was more MUD representation in EE1 and EE2. I played Goblins at EE2 and I faced three MUD players, three DnT players, and one Shardless BUG player.

Sounds like a tight match you had. Did you happen to face any Shops yesterday? I didn't face any. It was all Blue Based Control decks, and one TPS for me.

It's funny that we are all around the same age. Happy birthday, Stuart!


I faced no Shops in the Vintage tourney at EE3 though there was quite a bit there, including the 9th place finisher. I was planning on running Shops until a few days before when I switched to Esper Mentor. I think Shops is still strong and viable, but ultimately I was playing Shops because I like playing with Kuldotha Forgemaster, I think it's a fun card. Forgemaster is bad in a heavier null rod environment, and so I switched decks because the mentor list had more stuff that I thought was fun to play with, and because I recently upgraded my Ancestral, picked up a Time Vault etc. and I wanted to play with my new stuff.

[MGB]

L10: Don't you feel that maybe some of those losses could have been avoided if you had been playing the 12Post manabase instead of Citadels/Wastes/etc?

I watched some of the more successful MUD players at EE3 and the ones that were doing well seemed to just be overwhelming their opponents (even through opposing Wastelands) with gobs of mana.

Especially when I saw you lose to that DnT player where you had a bunch of 1-mana lands in play and couldn't cast your bomb. If those lands had been post-lands, that game would have been very different.

[Rikter]

L10: Don't you feel that maybe some of those losses could have been avoided if you had been playing the 12Post manabase instead of Citadels/Wastes/etc?

I watched some of the more successful MUD players at EE3 and the ones that were doing well seemed to just be overwhelming their opponents (even through opposing Wastelands) with gobs of mana.

Especially when I saw you lose to that DnT player where you had a bunch of 1-mana lands in play and couldn't cast your bomb. If those lands had been post-lands, that game would have been very different.


Agree, I am not a fan of darksteel citadel...I know its indestructable but my issue has never been with getting my 1 mana lands blown up, its failing to stick enough of the cloudposts and such. If you can get your mana base established then the only deck in the format that can really hang with you is the 12post list that runs eldrazi.

[Jakobian]

I'm a huge supporter of pithing needle naming wasteland from the sideboard. Crucible really doesn't do the same thing if your opponent has an exploration, a wasteland, and a life from the loam. The wastelock is real. Also pithing needle can stop other things, but for me the primary function is definitely stopping wasteland.

[L10]

@Rikter, I was planning to play Null Rod Espresso up until the Saturday before Vintage on Sunday, when my friend Joe Milia gave me the deck and said, "I have to work tomorrow, you are playing this". When I saw Scab-Clan Berserker and Prophetic Flamespeaker in the MD, the red mage inside me was immediately inspired. My friend Beans at Cloud City lent me the power because he didn't like the proxies. The deck was pretty hateful, but was very vulnerable to first turn nut plays. I think Mental Misstep or Mindbreak Trap would have helped.

@MGB, that is a very fair question, and was a question that I gave a hard thought about since Saturday. I can answer this question in two parts, depending on the context.

If the question was, "Would you have done better with Cloudpost MUD"? I think the answer is yes, because three of those losses came from Null Rod, which blanks Metalworker, Grim Monolith, Voltaic Key, and Thran Dynamo. The loss from Death and Taxes, IMO, is an outlier. He managed to StP three of my Metalworkers (two of which were in my opener), I didn't draw any Sol Lands aside from the City in my opener, and I didn't draw any of my six other ramp spells (4 Grim Monolith, 2 Thran Dynamo). Seeing that he was Hellbent, if I topped a Sol land, Grim Monolith, or Thran Dynamo, since I had Voltaic Key in play, Ugin would have wiped the field. If I were to go with the Cloudpost route, I would go with my 60 back in the TC era, but with a set of Wastelands and two Ugins:

Lands (23)
4 Wasteland
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Vesuva

Creatures (19)
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Blightsteel Colossus

Ugin (2)
2 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon

Others (16)
4 Trinisphere
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Staff of Domination
2 Lightning Greaves

If the question was, "Would have Cloudpost be better in your deck"? The answer is no. My deck is built to close out games in turn two or three, sometimes four. I can turn 1 Lodestone Golem, which happens seldom too. If you look at my list, one of the glaring omissions is Trinisphere. This is because I pretty gave up protection in favor of acceleration, in the form of 2 Voltaic Keys and 3 Lightning Greaves. My goal is to bring out one huge fatty, protected with Chalice or Greaves, and ride it to victory. Sometimes, that just doesn't happen, and I do mulligan quite aggressively to see if I can have turn 3 lines. Due to this concession, I try to add in cards like Urborg to give my deck some breathing room in the mid-game, even though that is not where this deck wants to be. My goal is to, in fact, to combo. This is actually the true purpose of Darksteel Citadel. Darksteel Citadel allows me to squeeze two extra mana from Metalworker and will be sacrificed to Forgemaster. Darksteel Citadel being Wasteland proof was only the added benefit, not the main reason for its inclusion.

My deck has been doing quite well until the DTT banning, which I have no regrets it being banned. Metalworker dies a lot more now compared the previous meta. Forgemaster can get blown out by Stifle with RUG Delver back. Containment Priest will see more play due to DnT being tier 1 again. Even if I do bring out a big fatty out quick, protected by Chalice or Greaves, it getting Edict by Lili seems silly now that Shardless BUG is a thing. All these factors makes this variant of my deck much more vulnerable in the current meta than the previous, which is part of the reason why I am looking at Welder as my savior, assuming that I still want to play a heavily combo-oriented Metalworker deck.

[Jakobian]

Is anyone else bringing MUD to GP Seattle? What do you think the metagame will be like?

[Fry]

I'm not going to GP Seattle, well because it's a little far from me, and I need to work, but I'll have Legacy MUD, D&T's, and Aluren with me for things at GP Pittsburgh in a few weeks. The venue is all of 2.5 hours away from where I live.

[L10]

@Jakobian
Yes. I will be there. I have already decided to play MUD. Whether it's going to be the version I am playing now (with drastic changes), Welder MUD, or Post MUD, is still up in the air. I am leaning towards the deck I am currently playing, but with a critical evaluation of it in the current meta, thanks to the help of Sockosensei and Sugiyama-san. One of the changes is the exclusion of Ugin, which is something I have been thinking for a long while to do, but am finally pulling the trigger. My deck simply does not have the mana to support it consistently.
I am going to GP Seattle with my friend George Fletes, who is going to be on Merfolk. We should definitely hang out. I will also be bringing ANT and Goblins as part of our Gauntlet.

The meta will probably look something like this: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/3527_day_2_metagame_breakdown.html

@Fry
I wasn't planning to go to GP Pitt, but if they have Legacy, I may go too! We should also, definitely, hang.

[L10]

I would like to thank Sockosensei again for getting me in touch with Sugiyama-san, the only person it seems who likes the same style of MUD I play. I am currently playing with Sugiyama-san's 74 (-Wurmcoil Engine, +1 Batterskull). The one thing the SB lacks is graveyard hate, which makes this deck more vulnerable to Reanimator and Dredge, which I am hoping to dodge. Here is the deck and the sideboard strategy to go along with it. The sideboard strategy is not complete yet, and I am still going back and forth on some cards, but this is where I am currently at. Also, I have it in <Japanese/English> format because Sugiyama-san doesn't speak English, and I don't speak Japanese.

Land (21)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland

Creature (20)
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
2 Wurmcoil Engine

Artifact (19)
1 Batterskull
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Grim Monolith
3 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Nin
2 Thran Dynamo
1 Trinisphere
2 Voltaic Key

Sideboard (15)
2 Coercive Portal
2 Maze of Ith
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Ratchet Bomb
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Sundering Titan
3 Thorn of Amethyst

Edit:

Here is a Google Doc with notes on the SB Strategy.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1j8ZJwhDk6KEATYQ9sj3yF2lsLakFCXZLCbF1myoc-A4/edit?usp=sharing

[darkgh0st]

Does anyone have a MUD Black Stax list to share?

I wanted to dig up this post as I got interested in black more recently. What does black splash bring to MUD? A few that I can think of from the top of my head:

Vault Skirge (weak unless with Plating)
Cranial Plating
Dismember
Nether Void
Leyline of the Void
Braids, Canal Minion
Smallpox
Liliana
Salvage Titan

The only two that I can think of that can be backbreaking is Dismember and Cranial Plating. Help, please?

[L10]

I'd say Guardian Beast and The Abyss are definitely in my Top 5, both in card quality and my wallet. Since you are splashing black anyways, this gives you Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, which means Maze of Ith, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, and Dark Depths all have added value.

If you guys are planning to go to Seattle, this is a good read about the artists at the venue:
http://www.gatheringmagic.com/mikelinnemann-102115-planning-for-art-at-grand-prix-seattle/

[Bobmans]

4 Mishra's Factory
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth


Mishra's Factory is just such a lovely card. Anyway, is their anything (other then better Ancient Tombs and possibly S. Titan) i am missing about Urborg?




I wanted to dig up this post as I got interested in black more recently. What does black splash bring to MUD? A few that I can think of from the top of my head:

Vault Skirge (weak unless with Plating)
Cranial Plating
Dismember
Nether Void
Leyline of the Void
Braids, Canal Minion
Smallpox
Liliana
Salvage Titan

The only two that I can think of that can be backbreaking is Dismember and Cranial Plating. Help, please?

Toxic Deluge.
That new pay 3 draw 3 card for (2)B?
Dont forget to bring Helm of obedience as a forgemaster target when having Leylines. Also, for any MUD color splash, double req is too taxing. It will play against you at some point. If it werent Wildfire.dec would have been out there before any black variant.

[L10]

Mishra's Factory has always been good to me, even back in the days when I played Fropper's MUD Stompy in 2010. He is used as Lili's sacrifice, a good clock, a great blocker (especially in conjunction with Voltaic Key), and can be eaten by Kuldotha. The utility of this cards has never let me down. My 9394 and Vintage all-star, and one of my favorite cards in the game.

Pros for Urborg:
- It goes well with Ancient Tomb. This is especially relevant against tempo decks. Ancient Tomb only, realistically, has about three activation against them. This becomes worse with multiple Ancient Tombs. Urborg is great because Ancient Tomb is no longer a dead draw in the late game.
- It goes well with Sundering Titan. Against Miracles, I have destroyed four to eight lands in multiple occasions. Fetchlands are also no longer protection against Sundering Titan, because they are now Swamps. Destroying a utility land with Sundering Titan is a great feeling too. Yes, I would like to destroy that Tar Pit.
- It is added value for Maze of Ith. Maze of Ith is primarily used against the Delver decks, as an attempt to put them off tempo. This gives us enough time to find Ratchet Bomb or establish board presence, which is what we want. Also decent against Reanimator.

Cons for Urborg:
- Once, a Merfolk player hard cast Dismemeber against me.
- Hymn and Liliana decks are popular, and Tropical Island is now a super land.
- Any B/xy deck can benefit greatly from Urborg.

[darkgh0st]

Thanks you for the black card suggestions so far.

Painful Truths , draws x cards for each colored mana you spent on it for 2B.

[Bobmans]

Thanks you for the black card suggestions so far.

Painful Truths , draws x cards for each colored mana you spent on it for 2B.
True lol, it stuck in my head as a draw 3 since i am familiar with the card in (3 color) NicFit.

[L10]

Why not Read the Bones or Night's Whisper? None of these cards goes well with Ancient Tomb or Lodestone Golem though. Because now it effectively reads as "You draw two cards and you lose 4 life" for 3B.

[Fry]

I'm doing the Jelly Jam tournament right now with this list and in top 8 (3rd) with my only loss to Miracles... I've been doing a sort-of mini report as the tourney goes for my friends...
4x Daretti, Scrap Savant
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Grim Monolith
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
2x Lightning Greaves
4x Metalworker
1x Mindslaver
1x Myr Battlesphere
1x Platinum Emperion
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Staff of Domination
1x Sundering Titan
1x Thousand-Year Elixir
4x Trinisphere
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1x Wurmcoil Engine
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
4x City of Traitors
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Great Furnace
3x Mountain
Side: 15
3x Whipflare
1x Blightsteel Colossus
2x Defense Grid
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Platinum Angel
2x Spellskite
1x Steel Hellkite
2x Sundering Titan
1x Wurmcoil Engine

Just took down Esper in 3 games.
Game 1 he got 2 TNN and JtMS bounced my Platinum Emperion for exact damage with the 2 Lingering Spirit Tokens

Game 2 Mull to 5. He gets SFM into Batterskull and starts to beat me down a little bit and I stabilize with a Wurmcoil and get a Sundering Titan, then sac the Titan next turn with Forgemaster and proceed to beat down with my 2nd turn Chalice on 1

Game 3 Mull to 6. A lot like game 2, except with him on the play he Thoughtseizes me and takes my Trinisphere and leaves me Metalworker, Monolith, Daretti, and Wurmcoil with only Ancient Tomb for mana, but I have a Mountain on top from the Scry. In the End Sundering Titan takes it down with some help from Forgemaster and Myr Battlesphere against his Germ token and SoFI... Blew up 8 lands between 2 Titans, 1 main, but brought the other 2 in from the board.

Mull to 5 in game 1 on the draw against my Finnish opponent on Miracles and he gets a JtMS and Entreats for 2 and gets rid of my Metalworker before I can do anything fun with it.

Game 2 I mull to 6 on the play and end up being annoying with a Defense Grid lead so I could resolve the Chalice on 1 for turn 2. He Cliques me and lets me keep my hand of Metalworker, Sundering Titan, Staff of Domination, and City of Traitors. He lets me keep all of them when I have that Chalice on 1, Mountain, Furnace, and Citadel in play and he has an EE set on 0, so I take the risk and play the Metalworker and it resolves. Next turn he still doesn't blow up the EE, so no StP, and no 4th land. My next turn I play staff, play Titan and he scoops.

Game 3 Actually not mulling this game! kiki emoticon keep a hand with Battlesphere, Cavern, City, Titan, Defense Grid, Monolith and Citadel. play Citadel turn 1 and pass to play the Defense Grid on turn two to eat a counterspell. Wanted to save my City until I needed it for the "big" play of Titan. T3 I draw a Greaves, but want the Monolith more, so I lead with that, after playing my Ancient Tomb, it resolves so I try the Greaves and that resolves too. Following turn I finally play my City and play my uncounterable Titan to destroy his only plains and 1 of his 3 Islands, he bstorms and swords my Titan and blow up a second Island to take him to 1 land. his turn he plays a SDT, and attacks with the Snapcaster that he got a couple turns earlier and used with his 1st turn Ponder. I am down to 6 mana from my previous play but I have a mountain in my hand to cast the Battlesphere by losing my City, it eats a FoW and a JtMS. He attacks on his turn and misses his land drop. I top deck a Daretti and he scoops.

I am now 3-0 in matches for the second Source tournament.

Only time I've doubled mulled in quite some time with this deck (especially after the scry mull...) I do it twice in game 1 and 3 against Miracles... Game 2 he got slaughtered by a forgemaster into Sundering Titan Had Grid on turn 2 followed by Chalice on 1 on turn 3, turn 4 was Thousand-Year. Ended up destroying 2 Tundra and a Volc with the first trigger his other Volc and Tundra of the second trigger, he miracled terminus for his turn (with the aid of Top) , untap forgemaster with Thousand-Year into a monolith by saccing the titan, itself, and defense grid (had 3Sphere in play) so I could play the other forgemaster still in my hand, which got a Blightsteel win on my turn.

Just won round 5, the last one of Swiss, and I'll be in the top 8 against Burn...
Game 1: He mulls to 6 and I keep my 7 of Trinisphere, Metalworker, Forgemaster, Emperion, Tomb, Mountain, and Furnace and I'm on the play.
I start off with a mountain and pass, his turn Lava Spikes my face... I don't like this match, crap... my turn I shock myself with the Tomb to play Trinisphere (Drew Solemn), his turn he plays Mesa and passes back to me. My turn I draw Ugin, play my Furnace and get Solemn for his nice little Mountain tagalong friend. His turn 3 consists of playing a Sulfuric Vortex when I'm already at 13 and he's at 18 from fetches. Turn 4 for me is a drawn Monolith that I play after attacking with Sad Robot. so I can play Emperion next turn with exactly 8 mana. He takes his turn goes to 16 and passes back to me and down I go to 9, play my Emperion by shocking myself to 7 (Drew MIndslaver), he responds with cracking his fetch he just played and casting PoP to do 4 more to me, I am not at 3, but my Emperion resolves (later I find out he had Fireblast in his hand the whole game). He draws for his turn and scoops to game 2.
Side out the Spine and Mindslaver and put in the 2nd Wurmcoil and the Blightsteel for the moderately good chance of an instant win that can't be blown up by Smash to Smithereens.

Game 2 starts as a double mull for him and I keep a hand of 2 Trinisphere, Metalworker, Lightning Greaves, Cavern, City, and Wurmcoil. He starts off with a suspended Rift Bolt. My first turn I draw Forgemaster and play the Cavern on Constructs. His turn 2 is to burn me with bolt and play Mesa and back to me for Trinisphere (really want to slow him down and proctect my Metalworker) off of my newly drawn Tomb, he responds with fetch PoP... This getting old. His turn 3 is evil with another Vortex on turn three, just like game 1. I go to 9 on my upkeep, draw the Staff and cast Forgemaster going to 7. His turn 4 he hits is 4th land and plays the last card in his hand, Chain Lightning to take me to 4, 2 once my turn starts. Draw Chalice, play my 2nd Trinisphere and sac all 3 artifacts I have to get Platinum Emperion, tap my Tomb for a painless 2 mana, cast Greaves, and can't wait to equip it! His turn he fetches before the draw and the Vortex takes him to 8, he gets a top decked Ensnaring Bridge... I wasn't expecting that and I sided out my only answer to it, the Spine, but that's okay, his Vortex will likely kill him as long as he can't deal with my protected Emperion, which I know he can't even with back to back Smash with my Chalice that I play on 2 when my turn passes back. He said the Bridge wasn't what he wanted, but that it would do. I also play my Metalworker and drew Blightsteel for the turn his turn and he blows up the Metalworker with Chain Lightning, my turn, draw, pass and his vortex kills him.

4-1 and moving to top 8.

Of course if anyone has questions about why I have card X in my deck over card Y, I'll give you guys my reasoned explanation.

[L10]

Hey Fry, I remembered that you want an additional Myr Battlesphere. Why not replace Mindslaver for it? Mindslaver is only really good against the really grindy match ups like Lands and combo decks like ANT. Does it have any other utility? How would you sideboard against Miracles, ANT, Shardless BUG, BUG Delver, and Canadian?

New card:
http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Sandstone-Oracle-Commader-2015-Spoiler.png

[Fry]

I also really like Mindslaver against things like Omnishow, really screw up their game plan with fetches, cantrips, playing spells in the wrong order, etc. It's also pretty nice against Jund, blow up their own crap with Abrupt Decay, target them with their own Lilly, remove lands with DRS needlessly, etc.

I can share Sideboard thoughts after the tourney is done so as not to give it away if my opponents check out my recent posts.

[L10]

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Magus-of-the-Wheel-C15.png

I want to see this in Welder MUD and Welder Stax.

4 Goblin Welder
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant
4 Faithless Looting
4 Magus of the Wheel


Going to brainstorm more sometime next week though.

[Stuart]

Nice job representing, Fry :cool:


http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Magus-of-the-Wheel-C15.png

I want to see this in Welder MUD and Welder Stax.

4 Goblin Welder
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant
4 Faithless Looting
4 Magus of the Wheel


Going to brainstorm more sometime next week though.

I'm sure this has been discussed to death, but how does 4 Welder and 4 Looting play with Chalice? I've thought about putting together Welder Stax, but the idea of leaving Chalice at home is just so painful . . . Obviously Cavern can mitigate that, but it still feels clunky.

And yeah it'd be great to see Magus in Stax. Seems good if you can fit Black Vise in your list (another 1-drop for Chalice, though!).

[L10]

I am basically giving up on Chalice at that point, as it would hurt me as much as it would to my opponent.

[Fry]

Call me crazy, but I would still do chalice, you obviously still have the Cavern for Welder, and the Daretti can at least make use of the FLooting if you have the Chalice on 1. I mean I could see cutting the Chalice, but if I personally would do that I would want Sphere of Resistance in its place, and then perhaps something else to go with it like Thorn of Amethyst. I love Lodestones, but for the same reason I don't have them in my list in the Tourney I mentioned a few posts up is that it makes my Daretti cost 5, and as we know 4 to 5 mana can be huge, and Ugin cost 9.

So I wouldn't take out the Chalice, but I can certainly understand the reasons behind the thought process. Also in the Welder Stax that we're talking about, could put in a little Grindstone/Painter's Servant action... I've actually thrown that 2 card combo into MUD before as a shock factor and random win... Need to work on a new list for that if I'm to do that again with 3 Welders in the MUD shell. I also love the idea of Myr Battlesphere (and to a lesser extent Wurmcoil) with Daretti/Welder for recursion in a Stax build.

I am now deep in mental building thought...

[L10]

The list I am currently working on has about ~10-14 one drops. The only resistor I am working with MD are Tangle Wires. I agree, making Daretti cost five mana may be a bad idea.

Edit:
On the other hand, if the only one drop in my list is Welder, I am absolutely keeping in Chalice. I guess I have to evaluate the power level of my one drops vs. Chalice of the Void. This is especially relevant since I do not want to dilute my deck with non-artifacts anyways. I think I want a more Wasteland proof mana base too. So maybe something like: 6 Mountain, 4 Great Furnace, 4 Cavern of Souls, 4 Ancient Tomb, and 4 City of Traitors. Also have one or two Solemn Simulacrum for additional mana support.

[GradStudent]

New to MUD thread here: I recently started building post MUD through pucatrade and was wondering if you all can recommend a particular updated build to continue to trade towards. I'll keep lurking to learn more about matchups/sideboarding strategy.

[L10]

This is a good one.

This is the list I run. I have something like 10+ top8 finishes in 40+ player tournaments with this list (or very similar).


4 wasteland
4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
4 vesuva
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb


4 metalworker
4 kuldotha forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 wurmcoil engine
1 sundering titan
1 platinum angel
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon


4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 grim monolith
2 Lightning greaves
1 spine of ish sah
2 staff of domination



Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle
2 Batterskull
1 Ratchet bomb
1 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon
1 Sundering Titan
2 Karn Liberated
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Orbs of Warding
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Tormod's Crypt

[L10]

I have been spending all day brewing, but I don't think I can make Magus of the Wheel's effect somehow asymmetrical. The closest card in mono brown or red is Uba Mask, which isn't going to cut it. If I can't make it asymmetrical that naturally fits in a Metalworker shell, I don't think it's worth the trouble. Maybe someone here can shed some light.

[Bobmans]

This is the list I run. I have something like 10+ top8 finishes in 40+ player tournaments with this list (or very similar).


4 wasteland
4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
4 vesuva
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb


4 metalworker
4 kuldotha forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 wurmcoil engine
1 sundering titan
1 platinum angel
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon


4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 grim monolith
2 Lightning greaves
1 spine of ish sah
2 staff of domination



Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle
2 Batterskull
1 Ratchet bomb
1 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon
1 Sundering Titan
2 Karn Liberated
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Orbs of Warding
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Tormod's Crypt



Well this is a solid start i'd say 2-3 Ugin main.

As for lands i'd say:
3/4 Wasteland

3/4 Cavern of Souls (Meta choice really. Currently i have Mishra's Factory in this spot since about 30% of my matchups are actually blue, plus i feel more comfortable playing against blue.)

2 Vesuva (I never run more then two, the card has a tendancy to show up in openers along with cards like City of Triators or Glimmerpost (without Cloudpost) and forcing me to mull more often)

3/4 City of Traitors (This really depends on how you want to focus your utility lands. I wanted to run the full set of Wastelands and 3 Mishras Factory plus 2 Vesuva. CoT had often been the weakest link in the manabase. But i also run 2 Crucible of Worlds in the 75.

And last: i run 2 Wurmcoil and 2 Steel Hellkite and never looked back. Steel Hellkite can be such a hoser. Plus, since the only real removal is Spine of Ish Sah and Ugin, having more ways to manipulate the board should be mandatory.

luckily for MUD the most cards are not to expensive and the ones that are will nearly always be present in the 75 (76).

[(nameless one)]

@Magus of the Wheel:

I think the best shell for that is a Daretti Stax shell. Deny your opponent's manabase using Spheres and Tangle Wire. You don't really need Faithless Looting (and possibly Goblin Welder), rather stay with Chalice of the Void.

Possibly Punishing Fire to get rid of things that go through the resistors.

[Runninonwater]

Managed to FINALLY after all of this time get some matches with my MUD deck! :D

Faced a Sneak and Show deck and i went like 7-1, for some reason we played without sideboarding.
And i finally got ahold on my second copy of Wasteland so my deck is something like this now:

Artifact (16)

4x Chalice of the Void

1x Coercive Portal
4x Grim Monolith
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Staff of Domination
1x Staff of Nin
3x Trinisphere

Land (24)

4x Ancient Tomb
3x Cavern of Souls
4x City of Traitors
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
3x Vesuva
2x Wasteland

Creature (18)

1x Blightsteel Colossus
3x Kuldotha Forgemaster
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Metalworker
1x Platinum Emperion
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Sundering Titan
3x Wurmcoil Engine

Planeswalker (2)

2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon


Do i cut 1 Cavern or 1 Traitor for that second Wasteland?
Or maybe as i read from Bobman, maybe i should cut that third Vesuva instead of Cavern / Traitor

In the matches i played i tried to cut 1 Traitor since he played Fows etc, pretty effective to resolve an Metalworker since he barerly played any creatureremoval.
I don't know how the matchup is preboard but i saw he had some Pyros, dunno if he brings them in just to kill Metalworker.

Coercive Portal was nice, could play it off of an Ancient Tomb and a City of Traitor to get me back in the game.

I hope i can get some time for a proper tournament!

[shadowgripper]

Coercive Portal can never blow anything up. Huh?

[Runninonwater]

Eh, i better look up that ruling haha.


EDIT: I was 100% sure that we could basicly to choose to draw or blow it up in our upkeep.

[darkgh0st]

Eh, i better look up that ruling haha.


EDIT: I was 100% sure that we could basicly to choose to draw or blow it up in our upkeep.

If most votes go for blowing up, then yes. If most votes or tied go for drawing a card then you draw a card. In a two player game, you and your opponent must vote to blow up the Portal to do so.

[Runninonwater]

If most votes go for blowing up, then yes. If most votes or tied go for drawing a card then you draw a card. In a two player game, you and your opponent must vote to blow up the Portal to do so.

Yes i do understand that now haha. Well it was the first time i got to play with it since i got the deck, talk about inexperienced/didn't read the card. I always saw it as an Phyrexian Arena with a bomb attached to it.

Oh well, i still like it as a 4 drop.

[MGB]

So did anyone see this crazy list that made top-4 at a modestly sized European touranment?

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18619&iddeck=141089

Creatures [5]
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Wurmcoil Engine

Planeswalkers [6]
3 Karn Liberated
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Artifacts [27]
1 Staff of Nin
2 Hedron Archive
2 Voltaic Key
3 Thran Dynamo
3 Trinisphere
4 Basalt Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Coercive Portal
4 Grim Monolith

Lands [22]
3 Karakas
3 Vesuva
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost

Sideboard:
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 All Is Dust
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Trinisphere
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Trading Post
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

Frankly this list boggles my mind. I don't understand how he did so well with such a wacky version of this deck. No Metalworkers, Lodestone golem in the SIDEBOARD, and tons of 4 mana artifacts that don't really impact the board immediately.

I get the cute trick of using Karakas to repeatedly re-play Ulamog, but is this really the best way to use all this mana? Is this better than just playing stuff like Ugin and Sundering Titan and playing Forgemaster to tutor for stuff?

[darkgh0st]

@MGB: yup, saw it. Very interesting. I'm thinking of brewing something similar.

[MGB]

@MGB: yup, saw it. Very interesting. I'm thinking of brewing something similar.

I'm testing it right now online and I have to say it plays out in an interesting way.

The centerpiece of the deck is the Coercive Portal as a 4-of. If you get it to stick, it's basically your draw engine to amass a critical amount of mana accelerants and bombs that the opponent can't deal with.

In traditional MUD, if opponent can deal with your Forgemaster. say, sometimes they can win if you don't draw into more must-answer threats. This deck just plays a whole bunch of top-end "must answer" cards, and the rest of the deck is basically mana accelerants to ensure you can cast them consistently.

I don't know if Basalt Monolith is better than Metalworker in its role, but I can see why he'd want the non-creature accelerant over the 1/2 creature that can be killed more easily.

[darkgh0st]

I'm testing it right now online and I have to say it plays out in an interesting way.

The centerpiece of the deck is the Coercive Portal as a 4-of. If you get it to stick, it's basically your draw engine to amass a critical amount of mana accelerants and bombs that the opponent can't deal with.

In traditional MUD, if opponent can deal with your Forgemaster. say, sometimes they can win if you don't draw into more must-answer threats. This deck just plays a whole bunch of top-end "must answer" cards, and the rest of the deck is basically mana accelerants to ensure you can cast them consistently.

I don't know if Basalt Monolith is better than Metalworker in its role, but I can see why he'd want the non-creature accelerant over the 1/2 creature that can be killed more easily.

I don't know if I can pull it off with a meta with lots of Null Rods and Wastelands. Plus I don't have the Karakas', which would help against Lands, Reanimator, and Legendary Miracles.

Voltaic Keys make the Basalt Monolith quite great still.

[Airwave]

So did anyone see this crazy list that made top-4 at a modestly sized European touranment?

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18619&iddeck=141089

LIST

Frankly this list boggles my mind. I don't understand how he did so well with such a wacky version of this deck. No Metalworkers, Lodestone golem in the SIDEBOARD, and tons of 4 mana artifacts that don't really impact the board immediately.

I get the cute trick of using Karakas to repeatedly re-play Ulamog, but is this really the best way to use all this mana? Is this better than just playing stuff like Ugin and Sundering Titan and playing Forgemaster to tutor for stuff?

I'm playing something quite a like, although there are some differences. First, as a kill condition I use Metalworker (4)+Staff (3) instead of the Ulamog/Karakas trick, second: I use Bottled Cloister (3 or 4) instead of the other draw engines alongside Ensnaring Bridge (4). This version seems more vulnerable to me, especially because of the bridges lacking, but hey it worked right :smile:

[keys]

Lodestone in the board makes sense if you're trying to blank your opponents removal. Bring them in after your opponent has boarded out his Bolts. Or just save them for the combo/control matchups.

[Runninonwater]

Any Tips for Sideboarding against Show and Tell?
Would be cool to know how you guys sideboard.

I have 1 Spine, 1 Duplicant and an Ensnaring Bridge in the sideboard and a Pithing Needle.
Do you think that would work?

Are Trinisphere good enough? Kinda slows them down with their cantrips.

[Stuart]

Took last week off MUD to play some High Tide, but back on brown this week. Only 9 people came out, though. Anyway:

Round I: RUG: 0-2
- Game 1: I'm on double Tombs and he has double flipped Delvers. That game goes pretty quickly.
- Game 2: (I don't remember what I boarded, other than -1 Forgemaster. After the game he shows me he boarded out his Stifles :rolleyes:). Thanks to Vesuva I'm on double Tombs again, and he lands a Goyf. Oh well.

Round II: Sneak Breach: 2-1
- Game 1: He sticks a Blood Moon turn 1. I play a Lodestone and beat him down to 1, but then he kills me with a Sneaky Emrakul.
- Game 2: (-4 Chalice, -3 Trinisphere, +1 Platinum Angel, +1 Spine, +2 Thorn, +1 Crucible, +2 Needle.) Turn 1 Needle keeps him off Sneak Attack, then I get a quick Forgemaster > Blightsteel.
- Game 3: Waste him off his turn 1 Sandstone Needle. He's short of mana long enough for me to Forgemaster a Blightsteel again.

Round III: Sneak Breach: 2-1
- Game 1: Somehow there are 2 Sneak Breach players in a 9-person event . . . Game 1 he gets a quick Sneaky Emrakul. I have enough of a board presence to not immediately lose to Annihilator, but he follows it up next turn with a Pyromancy for the win.
- Game 2: (-4 Chalice, -3 Trinisphere, +1 Platinum Angel, +1 Spine, +2 Thorn, +1 Crucible, +2 Needle.) Needle helps me out long enough for a Forgemaster > Blightsteel.
- Game 3: He plays turn 1 Mountain and Lotus Petal, I play a Needle and then a turn 2 Thorn. He never hits another land. I get a quick Blightsteel.

Round IV: UR Delver: 1-2
- Game 1: Ancient Tomb + Delver + Goblin Guide.
- Game 2: (-1 Forgemaster, -1 Spine, -1 Portal, +2 Ratchet Bomb, +1 Contagion Engine.) I hit the MUD jackpot. It goes something like Trinisphere > Wasteland > Lodestone > Lodestone > Wurmcoil.
- Game 3: Tomb and Goblin Guide get me down to 8 pretty quickly. I have a Chalice on 1, play a Metalworker with a Staff of Domination and Ugin in my hand and enough mana to cast either next turn. He swings with the Guide; I don’t block, figuring he can’t Bolt me and I can combo off next turn. He hits me with a Price of Progress for 6 and wins. He had a 2nd Price in his hand, so even if I’d blocked he woulda gotten me next turn. Stupid Price.


Thoughts:
- Has anyone else been experiencing weaning Legacy turnouts? I moved to TX in September, and since then I've seen the weekly attendance slowly go from ~18 to ~8-10.
- Is Sneak Breach (i.e. Mono R Sneak Attack) seeing much play around you guys, or was this just an anomaly?
- All 4 games I won against Sneak Breach were through quick Blightsteels. Otherwise it seems like a bad matchup; we cannot win in a long game with them, and can only disrupt them through Waste & Lodestone.
- In between rounds, the first Sneak Breach player and I jam some games with his Shardless deck. Seems like a much better matchup than BUG – less countermagic, and Trinisphere can hurt him bad.
- As the UR Delver player pointed out to me, I shouldn’t have boarded out Forgemaster: a 3/5 is pretty tough for him to deal with.

[L10]

Should this thread be about all things colorless, or try to stock with Metalworker strategies. I don't mind either. I just want a consensus. Or all things colorless (splashes are welcome) that does "big things".



And last: i run 2 Wurmcoil and 2 Steel Hellkite and never looked back. Steel Hellkite can be such a hoser. Plus, since the only real removal is Spine of Ish Sah and Ugin, having more ways to manipulate the board should be mandatory.

luckily for MUD the most cards are not to expensive and the ones that are will nearly always be present in the 75 (76).
I love the 2 Wurmcoil / 2 Hellkite configuration, and has been my goto configuration for years. Though, due to the popularity of BUG at the moment, I'd actually recommend the 3/1 split to deal with Lili. If your meta has more Elves and RUG though, Steel Hellkite is better. Against a meta with more Miracles and StP, I actually prefer Batterskull. Currently, I am doing the 2 Wurmcoil, 1 Hellkite, 1 Batterskull configuration.
I also like your last point. After you buy some core cards like City of Traitors, but is very inexpensive and surprisingly moddable.



@Magus of the Wheel:

I think the best shell for that is a Daretti Stax shell. Deny your opponent's manabase using Spheres and Tangle Wire. You don't really need Faithless Looting (and possibly Goblin Welder), rather stay with Chalice of the Void.

Possibly Punishing Fire to get rid of things that go through the resistors.
Yeah, I think you may be right. Thanks for the idea!


http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18619&iddeck=141089

2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Karn Liberated
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Voltaic Key
4 Coercive Portal
There is nothing I dislike about the list. Though, let's face it. Any deck with Voltaic Key will have my seal of approval. I love that card. Sometimes, it also pays to go rogue. This deck is similar to one from another Japanese artificer that I got in contact with.

土地：24枚
雲上の座×4
微光地×4
ヴェズーヴァ×4
古の墳墓×4
魂の洞窟×4
裏切り者の都×2
ヨーグモスの墳墓、アーボーグ×2

クリーチャー：18枚
金属細工師×4
磁石のゴーレム×4
ワームとぐろエンジン×4
鋼のヘルカイト×3
隔離するタイタン×3

その他：18枚
虚空の杯×4
三なる宝球×4
厳かなモノリス×4
強制の門×4
精霊龍、ウギン×2

サイドボード：15枚
真髄の針×4
漸増爆弾×3
アメジストのとげ×2
イシュ・サーの背骨×2
Maze of Ith×2
大祖始の遺産×2

The idea is that Forgemaster is garbage in the Cloudpost build. Instead, just play Coercive Portal to gain massive card advantage, drop bombs after bombs to beat face, and eventually win with inevitably. Never tried the list but seems interesting.


I'm playing something quite a like, although there are some differences. First, as a kill condition I use Metalworker (4)+Staff (3) instead of the Ulamog/Karakas trick, second: I use Bottled Cloister (3 or 4) instead of the other draw engines alongside Ensnaring Bridge (4). This version seems more vulnerable to me, especially because of the bridges lacking, but hey it worked right :smile:
You have been playing that list for a while now. How do you like it in the current meta. How is Bottled Cloister. Sugiyama-san and I have been debating to use Bottled Cloister over Coercive Portal, especially against BUG, but the idea of it getting blown up is frankly daunting.


Lodestone in the board makes sense if you're trying to blank your opponents removal. Bring them in after your opponent has boarded out his Bolts. Or just save them for the combo/control matchups.
It makes sense for me since most of his big stuff are not artifacts. Playing Lodestone Golem may actually be detrimental because it would delay him to drop his bombs.


Any Tips for Sideboarding against Show and Tell?
Would be cool to know how you guys sideboard.

I have 1 Spine, 1 Duplicant and an Ensnaring Bridge in the sideboard and a Pithing Needle.
Do you think that would work?

Are Trinisphere good enough? Kinda slows them down with their cantrips.
Spine, Duplicant, and Ensnaring Bridge are all great. Pithing Needle is great against Sneak Attack, but is only okay against Griselbrand. They still have a 7/7 Flying Demon with Lifelink...
Here is an evolving document of my deck and sideboard strategy, in collaboration with Takumi Sugiyama. The only difference is that I prefer a Batterskull over the third Wurmcoil Engine. Sugiyama-san prefers the third Wurmcoil due to the fragility of the Germ token. I personally like Batterskull it's an amazing wall against fair decks that likes to go wide, and has a better time dealing with StP. If there were a lot of RUG and Elves in the meta, having the 2nd Steel Hellkite may be a better call.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1j8ZJwhDk6KEATYQ9sj3yF2lsLakFCXZLCbF1myoc-A4/edit?usp=sharing



Thoughts:
- Has anyone else been experiencing weaning Legacy turnouts? I moved to TX in September, and since then I've seen the weekly attendance slowly go from ~18 to ~8-10.
- Is Sneak Breach (i.e. Mono R Sneak Attack) seeing much play around you guys, or was this just an anomaly?
- All 4 games I won against Sneak Breach were through quick Blightsteels. Otherwise it seems like a bad matchup; we cannot win in a long game with them, and can only disrupt them through Waste & Lodestone.
- In between rounds, the first Sneak Breach player and I jam some games with his Shardless deck. Seems like a much better matchup than BUG – less countermagic, and Trinisphere can hurt him bad.
- As the UR Delver player pointed out to me, I shouldn’t have boarded out Forgemaster: a 3/5 is pretty tough for him to deal with.
1) That sounds about right. Turnouts usually get lower from end of summer to winter, have a spike at winter break, get back low again in spring, and spike up again for the whole summer.
2) I have only seen it once at Jupiter Games in NYC like three years ago.
3) I can see that being true.
4) Shardless is a toss up. If they Hymn us and jam down Lili, it can be tough. Person on play has a massive advantage.
5) Yup. I beat RUG players all the time with my 3/5 all the time. It also forces then to hold up mana for Stifle.

[Fry]

I've seen the Sneak Breach thing a couple times at Jupiter before too, but I haven't been there in a couple years.

[Rikter]

Any Tips for Sideboarding against Show and Tell?
Would be cool to know how you guys sideboard.

I have 1 Spine, 1 Duplicant and an Ensnaring Bridge in the sideboard and a Pithing Needle.
Do you think that would work?

Are Trinisphere good enough? Kinda slows them down with their cantrips.


I run the spine main myself, but that duplicant and bridge are all fine to bring in. I like revoker in my board over needle, but either of them will work.

Personally I always boarded out the 3spheres against them, the really critical stuff that they cast isn't affected by it and I found 3sphere to be pretty lackluster.

[MGB]

You know, the more I ruminate on that list that placed top 4 at that European tournament ... the more it seems like the PERFECT deck for the modern Legacy metagame. Let's see:

- It crushes Miracles and BUG decks through its inevitability in ways that other MUDs really don't.
- It takes advantage of all the soft permission being played right now by the blue decks. Spell Snare, Spell Pierce and Daze are mostly useless against all the mana it produces not only through its lands but its artifact accelerants, and of course Counterbalance will never counter any of its bombs.
- It doesn't try to play the mana denial game as much as other MUD decks do, and instead focuses on just winning first. It still has enough mana denial and Lodestone in the board for stuff like Storm, but it doesn't run into the problem of "well I just drew all my lock pieces but I'm going to lose to a single Delver" because eventually some big bomb will stick.
- The 3 Karakas MD solve some of the problems this deck has against Sneak'n'Show and Lands combo decks. You can win random games against these decks by drawing your Karakas that traditional MUD just wouldn't.
- It mitigates the problem that MUD has against Wasteland / Rishadan Port decks in that it can play enough artifact accelerants such as Monoliths and Thran Dynamo and Hedron Archive to consistently get 8+ mana even if the Post manabase has been nullified by Wastes/Ports. Traditional MUD needs to rely 100% on its land base not getting dismantled or its Metalworker getting killed.
- Elves still seems tough but it plays Ratchet Bomb and Revoker in the sideboard.

I don't know about you guys but playing Monoliths+Dynamos+Ulamogs+Ugins+Karns might just be the "broke the format" approach right now.

[Stuart]

Should this thread be about all things colorless, or try to stock with Metalworker strategies. I don't mind either. I just want a consensus. Or all things colorless (splashes are welcome) that does "big things".

I'd be fine with this being broader than Metalworker; good way of keeping our minds open & not getting caught up in one approach.


I've seen the Sneak Breach thing a couple times at Jupiter before too, but I haven't been there in a couple years.

I'm assuming it's just an anomaly here, maybe related to the Dig ban and Omnitell going away.


Any Tips for Sideboarding against Show and Tell?
Would be cool to know how you guys sideboard.

I have 1 Spine, 1 Duplicant and an Ensnaring Bridge in the sideboard and a Pithing Needle.
Do you think that would work?

Are Trinisphere good enough? Kinda slows them down with their cantrips.

As others have said, all of those are good cards to bring in. Which version of Show and Tell are you up against -- Sneak Snow?



I don't know about you guys but playing Monoliths+Dynamos+Ulamogs+Ugins+Karns might just be the "broke the format" approach right now.

I'm not going to assume it will break the format, but it's certainly an interesting build. It looks to me like it'd still be vulnerable to stuff like a quick Delver or a well-timed Waste, as it has less disruption and no mid-sized robots running defense. Likewise, I don't feel like our Miracles matchup needs to get any better than it already is. On the other hand, it does look better and better each time I think about what it's doing . . .

[darkgh0st]

Played today with a 12 people turn out. Went 3-0, then ID for prize.

I played against BUG, keeping a 2 lander 1st game and a 3 lander 2nd game and not getting wasted pulled the win. (2-0)

Then against Sneak and Show. Some combination of Chalice, Trinisphere, Lodestone gets there. (2-0)

Then against Miracles. He never wins against me and dreaded that he had to face me again. (2-0)

I ID'ed against the 2nd BUG player, as he knows it could have swung either way.

Then I played someone else's Stax deck against some decks for fun... Fun for me, not for them. It was nicely built, and purely aimed to lock out opponents. I can provide a rough decklist if wanted here. The deck's owner lost to the BUG player that I ID'ed with, seeing 3 FoW 1st game and 2 in game 2. It really would have been nice to have a MUD vs Stax match, but he didn't want to play against me.

[Runninonwater]

Thanks for the tips guys/gals :)

@Stuart
Yes, it was a Sneak and Show deck.


That odd list with Ugins and Karns + Ulamog seems interesting. Sadly i do not have the cards for it or i would like to try it out :)
Its definetly a different approach.

[Bobmans]

Thanks for the tips guys/gals :)

@Stuart
Yes, it was a Sneak and Show deck.


That odd list with Ugins and Karns + Ulamog seems interesting. Sadly i do not have the cards for it or i would like to try it out :)
Its definetly a different approach.
You can always proxy what you miss and test it.

[Jakobian]

Well, I scrubbed out of GP Seattle. I had 2 byes, then I promptly lost 2 rounds vs BUG, won a round vs merfolk, then lost a round vs deadguy ale, which put me at 3-3 which was reason enough to drop. I had very bad luck with draws and matchups, so I'm pretty disappointed.

I'm going to put MUD in the corner for a bit.

[darkgh0st]

Well, I scrubbed out of GP Seattle. I had 2 byes, then I promptly lost 2 rounds vs BUG, won a round vs merfolk, then lost a round vs deadguy ale, which put me at 3-3 which was reason enough to drop. I had very bad luck with draws and matchups, so I'm pretty disappointed.

I'm going to put MUD in the corner for a bit.

Still... You have pretty good luck not experiencing those till now. You've had a lot of success with MUD.

[L10]

I went 6-3 and had a blast this weekend. All the players were really nice, and I made some pretty silly, broken plays. I think I played tight, so overall, I am happy. I only felt the deck played against me once the entire tournament.

For this weekend, I went.
2-0 vs ANT
1-2 vs Aggro Loam
2-1 vs Infect
2-1 vs Zoo
1-2 vs Reanimators
0-2 vs Deadguy
1-1 vs Retreat Knight (more on this)
2-1 vs Affinity

I will write a report later this week. The only thing I would change from my 75 is exchange Thran Dynamo for a Myr Battlesphere.

[Airwave]

Looking forward to it! :smile:

Bobmans, how did you finish yesterday? I dropped after my third loss (3-3).

[bruizar]

Have been away for a while, has Sandstone Oracle been discussed?

[Bobmans]

Looking forward to it! [emoji2]

Bobmans, how did you finish yesterday? I dropped after my third loss (3-3).
It was not half bad. Finished 4-3, losing the last matchup caused me to drop out of t16 and prizes. The matchups were akward.
R1: 2-0 Rw Painter
R2: 0-2 Big Red
R3: 2-0 Elves
R4: 2-0 Goblins
R5: 0-2 Elves
R6: 2-1 TES
R7: 0-2 Bw Smallpox

The Elves was a solid loss. That Smallpox deck felt like a lost battle regardless. And BigRed was simply tooo fast. Ugin saw play twice and in one match i lost and the other it was a winmore. Both Trinisphere and Chalice where MVP. Draws where decend. I took my time playing instead of rushing it like i always do and win (or lost) fast regardless.

[Runninonwater]

It was not half bad. Finished 4-3, losing the last matchup caused me to drop out of t16 and prizes. The matchups were akward.
R1: 2-0 Rw Painter
R2: 0-2 Big Red
R3: 2-0 Elves
R4: 2-0 Goblins
R5: 0-2 Elves
R6: 2-1 TES
R7: 0-2 Bw Smallpox

The Elves was a solid loss. That Smallpox deck felt like a lost battle regardless. And BigRed was simply tooo fast. Ugin saw play twice and in one match i lost and the other it was a winmore. Both Trinisphere and Chalice where MVP. Draws where decend. I took my time playing instead of rushing it like i always do and win (or lost) fast regardless.

What is this Big Red deck? I remember playing Big Red in standard 3-4 years ago with Koth and the helm.

[L10]

This is my first GP ever, and the fifth time I played at a major event (with 200+ people), despite my seventeen years of playing this game on and off. The other times were SCG NJ (2012), Eternal Extravaganza 1 (2014), Legacy Champs (2015), and Eternal Extravaganza 3 (2015). So naturally, I was both nervous and excited going into this event.

For GP Seattle, I was debating what version of Metalworker strategies I wanted to bring. One option is the Cloudpost variant. I opted against it because I felt Cloudpost was too slow for my taste, and I wanted to be explosive. Another is a new Goblin Welder list that I have been working on, but I opted against it too since it is still very much in the R&D stage, having not played with Goblin Welder for the past two years. Then, two weeks ago, I managed to get in contact with Takumi Sugiyama (through Sockosensei), who plays a very similar list to mine, and went 12-3 at GP Kyoto. After sharing his list that has to adopted to the post-DTT meta, my interest in piloting this version of MUD has rekindled, and finalized my decision for GP Seattle. The only change I made with Sugiyama-san’s 75 is exchanging one Wurmcoil Engine for a Batterskull, because I want a threat that is not soft to Swords to Plowshares, and copying Stoneforge Mystic with Phyrexian Metamorph is pure value.

The deck and SB Strategies (evolving document): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1j8ZJwhDk6KEATYQ9sj3yF2lsLakFCXZLCbF1myoc-A4
Please follow Sugiyama-san’s blog here: http://kurara.diarynote.jp/

I went 6-3 and had a blast this weekend. All the players were really nice, and I made some pretty silly, broken plays. So overall, I am happy. I only felt the deck played against me once the entire tournament.

For this weekend, I went:
Round 1: 2-0 vs David on ANT
Round 2: 1-2 vs Richard on Dump Truck
Round 3: 2-1 vs George on Infect
Round 4: 2-1 vs Tyler on Zoo
Round 5: 1-2 vs Nick on Reanimator
Round 6: 0-2 vs Nelson on Deadguy
Round 7: 1-1 vs Ian on Brave Sir Robin (more on this)
Round 8: 2-1 vs Connor on Death and Taxes
Round 9: 2-1 vs Thomas on Affinity

Round 1: 2-0 vs David on ANT (on draw)
Game 1 (mulligan to 6): David started with a Gitaxian Probe and Ponder. I start off with a Chalice of the Void. He tested my Chalice, which didn’t work, and passed. I cast Grim Monolith. He then made ~10 Goblin tokens. I then cast Wurmcoil Engine. Two turns later, I cast Steel Hellkite and he scooped.
SB in: 3 Phyrexian Revoker, 3 Thorn of Amethyst
SB out: 2 Thran Dynamo, 1 Crucible of Worlds, 1 Sundering Titan, 1 Staff of Nin, 1 Steel Hellkite
Game 2 (no mulligan): David names Chalice with Cabal Therapy and hits. I went Turn 1 Thorn of Amythest, Turn 2 Metalworker, Turn 3 Voltaic Key, Thorn of Amethyst, and Lodestone Golem. That was enough for David to scoop. Admittedly, I had a pretty brutal hand.

Round 2: 1-2 vs Richard on Dump Truck (on draw)
Game 1 (mulligan to 6): Richard started off with a Turn 1 Chalice. Cool. I started off with a Turn 1 Lightning Greaves. He then casts a Knight of Reliquary. I cast Metalworker, followed by a Steel Hellkite, and EE the Knight. I then slammed down a Platinum Emperion, which sealed the deal.
SB in: 3 Phyrexian Revoker, 3 Ratchet Bomb, 2 Coercive Portal, 1 Sundering Titan
SB out: 4 Chalice of the Void, 2 Phyrexian Metamorph, 1 Blightsteel Colossus, 1 Platinum Emperion, 1 Trinisphere
Game 2 (no mulligan): He had a quick Bob to start his card advantage engine. He then casts a Liliana to deal with my Metalworker. He then Maelstrom Pulse my Coercive Portal to prevent me from keeping up with Liliana. He ends with Wasteland + Life from the Loam lock.
Game 3 (mulligan to 5): Richard had a quick Liliana, which answered my Metalworker. I managed to kill her, but at the expense of a lot of resources. He then slams down a second Liliana, which I couldn’t recover from.

Round 3: 2-1 vs George on Infect (on draw)
Game 1 (no mulligan): George destroyed me quick with Invigorate and Blighted Agent.
SB in: 3 Thorn of Amethyst, 3 Ratchet Bomb, 2 Maze of Ith
SB out: 2 Thran Dynamo, 2 Phyrexian Metamorph, 1 Platinum Emperion, 1 Sundering Titan, 1 Crucible of Worlds, 1 Batterskull
Game 2 (mulligan to 6): I had a Turn 1 Thorn of Amethyst, Turn 2 Lodestone Golem, Turn 3 Lodestone Golem and Wasteland
Game 3 (no mulligan): I had Turn 1 City of Traitors, Grim Monolith, Voltaic Key, Chalice on 1, and Thorn of Amethyst. I then followed up with two Maze of Ith. Eventually, with couple Ratchet Bombs and a Chalice at 2, I found and cast Kuldotha Forgemaster. On the following turn, I sacrifice the Chalice at 2, Grim Monolith, and Forgemaster for a Blightsteel Colossus, cracked the Ratchet Bomb at 2 to destroy the Blighted Agent on defense, cast Lightning Greaves and swing with Blightsteel for lethal.

Round 4: 2-1 vs Tyler on Zoo (on draw)
Game 1 (no mulligan): Tyler killed me by Turn 3 with a bunch of creatures and Atarka's Command. It was pretty insane.
SB in: 3 Ratchet Bomb, 3 Phyrexian Revoker, 1 Spine of Ish Sah
SB out: 2 Thran Dynamo, 2 Phyrexian Metamorph, 1 Crucible of Worlds, 1 Staff of Nin, 1 Sundering Titan
Game 2 (mulligan to 4): I started with a Turn 1 Chalice of the Void, and a couple Ratchet Bombs. Eventually, I beat Tyler with a Phyrexian Revoker on Grim Lavamancer (which he didn’t have) and a couple Mishra’s Factories.
Game 3 (no mulligan): I had a Turn 1 Lightning Greaves, Turn 2 Metalworker, Wurmcoil Engine, Voltaic Key, Batterskull.

Round 5: 1-2 vs Nick on Reanimator (on play, FINALLY)
Game 1 (no mulligan): I had a Turn 1 Voltaic Key. Nick had a Turn 1 Griselbrand, followed by a Turn 2 Elesh Norn. I actually managed to cast Platinum Emperion through Cavern of Souls. Nick started laughing his butt off when he reanimate Tidespout Tyrant the next turn, admitting it was a last second inclusion and that he would have been dead on board.
SB in: 3 Thorn of Amethyst, 2 Maze of Ith, 3 Phyrexian Revoker, 1 Spine of Ish Sah
SB out: 2 Thran Dynamo, 1 Batterskull, 1 Crucible of Worlds, 1 Staff of Nin, 1 Steel Hellkite, 1 Sundering Titan, 1 Trinisphere
Game 2 (mulligan to 6): I had Turn 1 Ancient Tomb, Grim Monolith, Voltaic Key, Chalice on 1, and Thorn of Amethyst... again. Nick casts Jace, Vryn's Prodigy on Turn 2, which I name with Phyrexian Revoker. I then started beating Nick with Phyrexian Revoker and Mishra’s Factory.
Game 3 (mulligan to 5): Nick has a Turn 2 Griselbrand with Force of Will protection. I didn’t get there.

Round 6: 0-2 vs Nelson on Deadguy (on draw)
Game 1 (mulligan to 5): Nelson Turn 3 Liliana ate my Turn 2 Metalworker and I never recovered.
Game 2 (mulligan to 6): I had a Turn 1 Chalice, but my only threat was a Phyrexian Revoker (on Jitte, that got Edict by Liliana) and drew nothing but lands and an extra Chalice at the end. This was the only game in the entire tournament that I was disappointed in, because I didn’t get a chance to put up a fight. I didn’t even have Mishra’s Factories.

Round 7: 1-1 vs Ian on Brave Sir Robin
My opponent didn’t actually show up, so I ended up getting 2-0 for doing nothing. Coincidently, Ian on my left did not have his opponent show up either. Since we were both waiting, we decided to play two games with no sideboard, with each of us taking a turn to go on play. Ian went on play first.
Game 1 (no mulligan): He went Turn 1 Noble Hierarch with Tropical Island. I jokingly said, “oh, you must be on Retreating Knight”, to which he replied, “of course!” He then went Turn 2 Knight of Reliquary and Turn 3 Retreat to Coralhelm. He got really happy because it was the first time he did a Turn 3 kill in the entire tournament.
Game 2 (no mulligan): I went Turn 1 Ancient Tomb, Grim Monolith, Voltaic Key, Lodestone Golem. Turn 2, I swung for 5 and cast another Lodestone Golem. Turn 3, I cast a Phyrexian Metamorph (copying a Lodestone Golem) and a Lightning Greaves, swinging in 15 for lethal.

Round 8: 2-1 vs Connor on Death and Taxes (on draw)
Game 1 (mulligan to 5): Thalia, Wasteland, and Rishadan Port locked me out of the game.
SB in: 3 Phyrexian Revoker, 3 Ratchet Bomb
SB out: 4 Chalice of the Void, 1 Trinisphere, 1 Sundering Titan
Game 2 (mulligan to 5): This was a very grindy match. We had an even board until he cast Serra Avenger, which he used to knock me down to nine life. Then I cast Platinum Emperion, which stabilized my board. Eventually, I have Steel Hellkite out to wipe his board.
Game 3 (no mulligan): I hard cast Blightsteel on Turn 4 with Greaves, and swing for lethal because he had no blockers: http://i.imgur.com/NIxReOi.jpg

Round 9: 2-1 vs Thomas on Affinity (on play, FINALLY)
Game 1 (no mulligan): Turn 1 Trinisphere, followed by Turn 2 Metalworker turned out to be pretty decent. I cast some tanks and it was over.
SB in: 2 Maze of Ith, 3 Phyrexian Revoker, 3 Ratchet Bomb, 3 Thorn of Amethyst
SB out: 4 Lodestone Golem, 2 Phyrexian Metamorph, 2 Thran Dynamo, 1 Sundering Titan, 1 Crucible of Worlds, 1 Staff of Nin
Game 2 (mulligan to 4): He slammed his hand down with Cranial Plating in the first two turns and I couldn’t keep up, even with a Ratchet Bomb.
Game 3 (no mulligan): This was a grindy match. Maze of Ith kept him off from going lethal four turns early. When my life is down to 1, I tapped Metalworker, bring out another Metalworker, tap Metalworker with Greaves, play Blightsteel Colossus, and swing with the hasty Blightsteel. He sacrificed his Arcbound Ravager to move all the counters to Vault Skirge, and blocked with his Vault Skirge which I used Maze of Ith on the turn before. Confused that I didn’t concede, on his turn, he moved Cranial Plating to an Ornithopter and swung, to which I target Maze of Ith with.

Over all, I am happy with my performance in this tournament. The only one change I would make is exchange a Thran Dynamo for a Myr Battlesphere. I felt this deck is somewhat weak against Liliana, and Myr Battlesphere simply destroys Planeswalkers. I also like the idea of attacking with Myr Battlesphere, deal 4 damage, and remove it from combat with Maze of Ith.

BONUS:

I had Franz Vohwinkel, the artist for Myr Battlesphere, to sketch me four Myr tokens at the GP: http://imgur.com/IQt80LT
I also have Chris Rahn to alter my Blightsteel Colossus (also a first in my seventeen years of playing Magic) at the GP with a Lightning theme (for Lightning Greaves): http://imgur.com/HSLlwNU
I also bought these prints at the GP: http://imgur.com/c4KqMRh

Thanks for reading!

[Bobmans]

What is this Big Red deck? I remember playing Big Red in standard 3-4 years ago with Koth and the helm.
Mono R Sneak Attack:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24711

[Airwave]

It was not half bad. Finished 4-3, losing the last matchup caused me to drop out of t16 and prizes. The matchups were akward.
R1: 2-0 Rw Painter
R2: 0-2 Big Red
R3: 2-0 Elves
R4: 2-0 Goblins
R5: 0-2 Elves
R6: 2-1 TES
R7: 0-2 Bw Smallpox

The Elves was a solid loss. That Smallpox deck felt like a lost battle regardless. And BigRed was simply tooo fast. Ugin saw play twice and in one match i lost and the other it was a winmore. Both Trinisphere and Chalice where MVP. Draws where decend. I took my time playing instead of rushing it like i always do and win (or lost) fast regardless.

Too bad you lost the last match. I think I know who you played, the big American guy right?

Big Red... funny, you don't see that deck so often.

[Bobmans]

Too bad you lost the last match. I think I know who you played, the big American guy right?

Big Red... funny, you don't see that deck so often.
Yeah, that American guy played it; smallpox, liliana, innocent blood and recurring creatures are nasty to deal with. You really gotta setup a kill by T3 max or you just get played out fast.
The guy playing Big Red is actually a Gameforce regular. That said, it's fairly common for our meta that people play and try all sorts of shit. Which is a nice thing.

L10, how where the Thran Dynamo's? Also, have the Chalices ever been a problem for the Key's?
Great performance on overall, MUD's gotta get DTB sometime. Back in the NL we had 2 MUD lists going T8 on a 100?+ size tournament (7rounds).

[darkgh0st]

@L10: Thanks for the report and good job getting 6-3. Do you still prefer Takumi-san's list over any other MUD variants? Having only 21 lands didn't seem like it was giving problems. Were there ever a time where if you drew 1 more land, you would have made a difference in any of your losses?

[keys]

L10,

Cool list. What's the Urborg for exactly?

You have powered up Metalworkers with Dynamo and Key instead of land and no planeswalkers, so I'm wondering why you chose to play Staff of Nin instead of Staff of Domination.

Also, were the Metamorphs better than Trini 2-3? You sideboarded them out a lot.

Congrats on your solid record!

[Fry]

L10,
Cool list. What's the Urborg for exactly?


It allows the usage of Ancient tomb for mana without being shocked.

[MGB]

So I played in the Legacy Premier IQ in Philly this past weekend and went 5-2 with the James Wohlmacher MUD list with some tweaks (2 Sundering Titan MD, less Staff of Domination/Nin, more Revokers + Ratchet Bombs in SB).

I lost to Infect and Aggro Loam, and beat Storm twice, beat Miracles, beat Junk, and beat Stoneblade.

I feel as if this deck needs more answers to Infect because they can just combo off too quickly. I actually talked to James at the event and he told me he has been trying out Serrated Arrows in the sideboard to combat Infect and Elves, and since I've played that card in Mono Blue Tron, I felt that it might be a decent solution.

Also, I got my Forgemaster countered twice vs. that infect deck, and if it had resolved I probably would have won at least one of those games by searching for a Platinum Angel or Blightsteel Colossus or something. I had Mishra's Factory in play. I always debated whether Factory or Cavern of Souls was better, and it seems as if sometimes you just want to force your threats through. But on the other hand, in other games I used Factories to activate + sac to the Forgemaster where I would otherwise had to sac artifacts already in play, so it seems as if Factory vs. Cavern doesn't involve a hard and clear resolution.


I'm torn whether to play this more traditional MUD list in SCG New Jersey or try out the more non-traditional European MUD with Basalt Monoliths, Karakas, Ulamogs, and such that I linked to earlier in the thread...

[Silverflame]

I like Sugiyama-san's list, although I wouldn't play it locally because it just dies to null rod. That is the main reason I play cloudpost on local stores, because most people already know what I'll be playing. But in a bigger tournament, it seens very good, I'd only try to stick a Ugin instead of staff, the card is just too powerful to be dismissed.

[L10]

Just so you guys know, I am taking a good month break away from Magic, so I may not be posting as much.

Future changes:
-1 Thran Dynamo
+1 Myr Battlesphere
Having one Thran Dynamo out is great, but having multiple was redundant. Myr Battlesphere would have helped against Liliana.

SB Cards I missed:
Caltrops - Beats Infect and Death and Taxes, and other decks filled with x/1
Umezawa's Jitte - Beats creature.dec
Hangarback Walker - Good against Liliana and is a Constuct
Triskelion - It's a construct that can snipe Delver
Dodecapod - Good against Liliana and Hymn to Tourach


L10, how were the Thran Dynamo's?
It is good to have one out, but somewhat redundant in multiples. Same goes with Crucible of Worlds and Trinisphere. I have always liked Thran Dynamo ever since I played Fropper's MUD Stompy list back in 2010 because it makes me less reliant on my lands, more Wasteland proof, and allows me to put my utility lands like Mishra's Factory and Wasteland to work. Sometimes, it is better than Metalworker because it immune to creature removal and Abrupt Decay. I had two Thran Dynamo for the GP because I was expecting more Lands, Dump Trucks, and other Loam strategies, but that didn't turn out to be the case.


Also, have the Chalices ever been a problem for the Key's?
I have been playing ~2-3 Voltaic Keys in 90% of my MUD builds since 2010 and it has honestly, very rarely, been an issue. Voltaic Key has consistently been amazing. It increases the number of Turn 1 plays you have, it boosts your mana significantly with Grim Monolith and Metalworker, does combat tricks with Mishra's Factory, etc. Being able to crack Ratchet Bomb at 1 on Turn 1 or Ratchet Bomb at 3 on Turn 2 is also relevant. Staff of Nin being able to kill x/2 creatures or two x/1 creatures per turn is good too. I am very rarely disappointed with this card, and is one of my favorite cards in Magic.


@L10: Thanks for the report and good job getting 6-3. Do you still prefer Takumi-san's list over any other MUD variants?
Thanks! I do mainly due to familiarity with the deck. I have been piloting a similar list for well over two years. Comboing off and winning by turn 2-4 is fun for me. Now that the GP is over, I am more willing to try other variants and brews I have been cooking up. Fry has cooked up a saucy Welder list before the GP that I will try to help him with. Sugiyama-san also has other ideas that I'd like to help fruition. I also have my own ideas too. So the future is looking bright for me. I think people underestimate how open the MUD archetype really is.


Having only 21 lands didn't seem like it was giving problems. Were there ever a time where if you drew 1 more land, you would have made a difference in any of your losses?
Nope. Having 21~22 lands is where this particular deck wants to be. If you look at the deck's mana curve, one thing you would notice is that the curve is much lower than traditional Cloudpost decks. Trinisphere can be bad for this deck sometimes because I play quite a few two-drops, especially after SB.


L10,
What's the Urborg for exactly?

Pros for Urborg:
- It goes well with Ancient Tomb. This is especially relevant against tempo decks. Ancient Tomb only, realistically, has about three activation against them. This becomes worse with multiple Ancient Tombs. Urborg is great because Ancient Tomb is no longer a dead draw in the late game.
- It goes well with Sundering Titan. Against Miracles, I have destroyed four to eight lands in multiple occasions. Fetchlands are also no longer protection against Sundering Titan, because they are now Swamps. Destroying a utility land with Sundering Titan is a great feeling too. Like, in response to Thespian Stage, Forgemaster for Sundering Titan on Dark Depths.
- It is added value for Maze of Ith. Maze of Ith is primarily used against the Delver decks, as an attempt to put them off tempo. This gives us enough time to find Ratchet Bomb or establish board presence, which is what we want. Also decent against Reanimator.

Cons for Urborg:
- Once, a Merfolk player hard cast Dismemeber against me.
- Hymn and Liliana decks are popular, and Tropical Island is now a super land.
- Any B/xy deck can benefit greatly from Urborg.


You have powered up Metalworkers with Dynamo and Key instead of land and no planeswalkers, so I'm wondering why you chose to play Staff of Nin instead of Staff of Domination.
I tend to go Hellbent, so the chances of me comboing off with SoD is slim. Since this deck can be reliant on Ancient Tomb sometimes, I rather play a card that has high impact that is not mana intensive. If I have too much free mana, I rather start destroying my opponent's land with Wasteland or smashing in with Mishra's Factory. Staff of Nin is great because it deals with pesky x/1's, x/2's with Voltaic Key, puts Planeswalkers under pressure, and guarantees me a card every upkeep.


Also, were the Metamorphs better than Trini 2-3? You sideboarded them out a lot.
Trinisphere is not that great in this deck because I play quite a few one and two drops, especially after SB, but is powerful enough that it warrants at least one copy. For a while, I play with no copies of Trinisphere in main. I still might remove it in the future. Phyrexian Metamorph is great because it can copy almost anything in the deck. It can even copy whatever my opponent has too. Oh hey, nice Goyf. I am going to copy that. Nice Stoneforge. I am going to get my own Batterskull or Jitte too. Copying a Griselbrand with an active Metalworker pretty much wins the game. Copying a Wurmcoil Engine or Sundering Titan for half the price is powerful. Copying Batterskull is a good early play because allows you the bounce Metamorph back to your hand later for a more impactful card. My favorite targets for Metamorph though are Lodestone Golem and Staff of Nin. I tend to SB Metamorph out against decks that can deal damage to me really quick like Burn and Delver, since I am using my life as a resource. For example, against regular Entreat Miracles, I would SB like:
in
+3 《ファイレクシアの破棄者/Phyrexian Revoker》
+3 《漸増爆弾/Ratchet Bomb》
+1 《隔離するタイタン/Sundering Titan》
+2 《強制の門/Coercive Portal》
out
-2 《ワームとぐろエンジン/Wurmcoil Engine》
-2 《スランの発電機/Thran Dynamo》
-1 《荒廃鋼の巨像/Blightsteel Colossus》
-1 《白金の帝像/Platinum Emperion》
-1 《カルドーサの鍛冶場主/Kuldotha Forgemaster》
-1 《世界のるつぼ/Crucible of Worlds》
-1 《三なる宝球/Trinisphere》

But against Mentor Miracles, I would SB like:
in
+3 《ファイレクシアの破棄者/Phyrexian Revoker》
+3 《漸増爆弾/Ratchet Bomb》
+1 《隔離するタイタン/Sundering Titan》
+2 《強制の門/Coercive Portal》
out
-2 《ファイレクシアの変形者/Phyrexian Metamorph》
-2 《スランの発電機/Thran Dynamo》
-1 《荒廃鋼の巨像/Blightsteel Colossus》
-1 《白金の帝像/Platinum Emperion》
-1 《カルドーサの鍛冶場主/Kuldotha Forgemaster》
-1 《世界のるつぼ/Crucible of Worlds》
-1 《三なる宝球/Trinisphere》



Congrats on your solid record!
Thanks!


So I played in the Legacy Premier IQ in Philly this past weekend and went 5-2 with the James Wohlmacher MUD list with some tweaks (2 Sundering Titan MD, less Staff of Domination/Nin, more Revokers + Ratchet Bombs in SB).
Was James upset when you told him you were playing less than two SoD? He loves SoD. At one point, he had three SoD. I think two SoD is perfect for PostMUD.


I feel as if this deck needs more answers to Infect because they can just combo off too quickly. I actually talked to James at the event and he told me he has been trying out Serrated Arrows in the sideboard to combat Infect and Elves, and since I've played that card in Mono Blue Tron, I felt that it might be a decent solution.
Honestly, I can't remember the last time I lost against Infect. Between Legacy Champs to GP Seattle, my record against Infect is currently 9-0 rounds, 18-4 in games. Between Staff of Nin, Maze of Ith, Umezawa's Jitte, Mishra's Factory, Wasteland, Ratchet Bomb, Thorn of Amethyst, Steel Hellkite, Triskelion, Caltrops, Jitte, and Cavern of Souls, I think we have more than enough tools to deal against them. I don't even play Platinum Angel anymore, since I think it’s a win-more. James told me about Serrated Arrows but I honestly think it is janky. Just play Cavern of Souls on Construct, play Triskelion, and get it over with.


I'm torn whether to play this more traditional MUD list in SCG New Jersey or try out the more non-traditional European MUD with Basalt Monoliths, Karakas, Ulamogs, and such that I linked to earlier in the thread...
Try out the European MUD list for a week and see how it goes. You have about ~3 weeks. I am probably going to jam some ANT or Goblins, mainly because I want to give my other decks some love and attention. I will put in approximately zero practice between now and SCG NJ though, because I am taking a break.


I'd only try to stick a Ugin instead of staff, the card is just too powerful to be dismissed.
I have two Ugin up until two weeks ago. For the longest while, I have been considering to cut Ugin because it is simply too mana intensive for this deck with Lodestone Golems, the fact that Metalworker can't contribute to the cost, and it can't be fetched by Forgemaster. Ugin's power blindsided me from removing him from my list, even though I knew I should. The reality of it is that he gets stuck in my hand most of the time, and that the deck doesn't need Ugin to function well. It finally took Sugiyama-san to convince me of something that I already knew. I haven't missed him yet, in this build at least.

[Fry]

For example, against regular Entreat Miracles, I would SB like:
in
+3 《ファイレクシアの破棄者/Phyrexian Revoker》
+3 《漸増爆弾/Ratchet Bomb》
+1 《隔離するタイタン/Sundering Titan》
+2 《強制の門/Coercive Portal》
out
-2 《ワームとぐろエンジン/Wurmcoil Engine》
-2 《スランの発電機/Thran Dynamo》
-1 《荒廃鋼の巨像/Blightsteel Colossus》
-1 《白金の帝像/Platinum Emperion》
-1 《カルドーサの鍛冶場主/Kuldotha Forgemaster》
-1 《世界のるつぼ/Crucible of Worlds》
-1 《三なる宝球/Trinisphere》

But against Mentor Miracles, I would SB like:
in
+3 《ファイレクシアの破棄者/Phyrexian Revoker》
+3 《漸増爆弾/Ratchet Bomb》
+1 《隔離するタイタン/Sundering Titan》
+2 《強制の門/Coercive Portal》
out
-2 《ファイレクシアの変形者/Phyrexian Metamorph》
-2 《スランの発電機/Thran Dynamo》
-1 《荒廃鋼の巨像/Blightsteel Colossus》
-1 《白金の帝像/Platinum Emperion》
-1 《カルドーサの鍛冶場主/Kuldotha Forgemaster》
-1 《世界のるつぼ/Crucible of Worlds》
-1 《三なる宝球/Trinisphere》


I have my BSC in my sideboard and I actually put it in against Entreat Miracles, I like how they normally don't have blockers too early and it allows for some early game wins, I also side in my 2 extra Sundering Titans to complement my 1 main Titan. I leave it out against Mentor Miracles.

I like the idea of putting in Caltrops, I've always liked the card, and the reasons to include it in the board are quite relevant with D&T's being as popular as it is right now. Can buy a couple turns against aggro heavy decks too.

I've tried Dodecapod before in my board and was always somewhat disappointed in it, it's really bad if it's not discarded and is just a big body (which is nice...), but I'd rather have a higher impact card such as my additional Wurmcoil, Sunderings, and Hellkite. Then again we currently run rather dissimilar lists.

[Stuart]

Awesome work at the GP, everyone :smile: In less exciting news, last night I took MUD over to a weekly. 8 players was enough for 4 rounds.

Round I: Green 12-Post: 2-0
- Game 1: I knew what he was on, so I led off by Wasting his Cloudpost. From there, I timed by own Posts well and set up a board faster than he did. Forgemaster got me a Blightsteel, which wrapped it up.
- Game 2: (-3 Trinisphere, +2 Crucible, +1 Spine.) I drew a hand full of Posts, a Chalice, and some threats. Chalice kept him off Crop Rotatian, etc long enough for me to hardcast a Blightsteel.

Round II: Reanimator: 0-2
- Game 1: I hate Reanimator, and I didn't lead off on Chalice either game. Quick Griselbrand + Elesh Norn do me in.
- Game 2: (don't remember what I boarded out, but +2 Tormod's definitely happened.) Quick Griselbrand gets me again!

Round III: Aluren: 2-0
- Game 1: This is the guy who came in 2nd at the recent 5K IQ, so I was excited to try the matchup. (He's also the guy I've played on Grixis Tezz a few times.) Turn 1 Chalice shut off a hand full of one-drops, and I kill him quickly.
- Game 2: (-2 Ugin, -1 Greaves, +2 Needle, +1 Tsabo's Web. In retrospect, the Web should have been a Spine.) He keeps a one-lander. I Waste him off the land, and he never hits another one.

Round IV: Miracles: 2-0
- Game 1: Obviously this is a tough one for Miracles, and I'm never really worried; I have a ton of mana and a hand full of threats, and he isn't on the Mentor build. That said, at some point I get up to 3 Tombs, so I actually get myself down to 3 life. Fortunately Chalice is shutting off his Bolts, and he scoops when I'm going to ultimate Ugin.
- Game 2: (No boarding.) Quicker game. I get a Blightsteel out pretty quickly, which he Terminuses. Next turn I play a Forgemaster and Greaves to get the Blightsteel back, then win.

3-1 was good for $12, part of which went towards the last Sphere of Resistance I needed for Vintage :smile:

[L10]

Truth be told, Dodecapod may be too cute. I still like Hangarback Walker though. It is somewhat resilient against Liliana and is itself a Construct. It also gets added value when be eaten by Kuldotha Forgemaster.

Nice report, as always, Stuart. :)

Day 2 Metagame Breakdown:

30 13.7% Shardless Sultai
21 9.6% Jeskai Miracles
17 7.8% Sultai Delver
15 6.8% Death and Taxes
12 5.5% Elves
12 5.5% Grixis Delver
12 5.5% Temur Delver
11 5.0% Lands
10 4.6% Ad Nauseam Tendrils
10 5.5% Burn
10 4.6% Reanimator
9 4.1% Sneak and Show
9 4.1% Stoneblade (All Types)
6 2.7% Infect
6 2.7% Jund
6 2.7% Merfolk
21 9.6% Others

As a side note, no MUD decks made it to Day 2, which was a bit of a shock to me. I expected at least one or two, but no. Exactly zero did. Part of the issue is probably that Shardless BUG just absolutely tears our deck apart if we do not win quick enough. Also, we need to make our deck more reliant against Liliana. I think that's one of the biggest weak points in our deck right now.

[Airwave]

Truth be told, Dodecapod may be too cute. I still like Hangarback Walker though. It is somewhat resilient against Liliana and is itself a Construct. It also gets added value when be eaten by Kuldotha Forgemaster.

Nice report, as always, Stuart. :)

Day 2 Metagame Breakdown:

30 13.7% Shardless Sultai
21 9.6% Jeskai Miracles
17 7.8% Sultai Delver
15 6.8% Death and Taxes
12 5.5% Elves
12 5.5% Grixis Delver
12 5.5% Temur Delver
11 5.0% Lands
10 4.6% Ad Nauseam Tendrils
10 5.5% Burn
10 4.6% Reanimator
9 4.1% Sneak and Show
9 4.1% Stoneblade (All Types)
6 2.7% Infect
6 2.7% Jund
6 2.7% Merfolk
21 9.6% Others

As a side note, no MUD decks made it to Day 2, which was a bit of a shock to me. I expected at least one or two, but no. Exactly zero did. Part of the issue is probably that Shardless BUG just absolutely tears our deck apart if we do not win quick enough. Also, we need to make our deck more reliant against Liliana. I think that's one of the biggest weak points in our deck right now.

I'm, unfortunately, not surprised, MUD isn't fancy in this meta. I think we need to come up with new approaches (as you're all doing already :cool:)
For myself, I'm still not sure what direction to go, but time will tell. The new deck needs to beat Shardless BUG, that's for sure.

[forestfold]

So, long time member, first time posting in this thread. I went to GP SeaTac and ended up 6-3.
I make it a point to go to every big Legacy event in North America unless work gets in the way which usually nets me a GP and something else like an Open or Eternal Weekend every year. I live in central Maine, so usually I have a 4+ hour drive to ANY legacy event over 12 people, and there is nothing regularly supported in my area.
I played MUD(v. 1.Cloudpost) for the first time early this year, I started Legacy as an Enchantress player and I am naturally drawn to decks with a lot of Power. I actually borrowed 70 of the 75 from a good friend of mine because I was headed to the NJ Invitational, and I had been playing Stoneblade for the past 6 months but it just didn't feel particularly good vs. the meta at the time. MUD was my audible. I audibled, and went 2-2 for the legacy portion, but I could have easily gone 3-1 or 4-0. My second round I lost the die roll and got turn-one'd by ANT, won on the play, and barely lost on the draw. If I had mulliganed a little more aggressively I might have beat him, but I kept a 7 with double trinisphere but would only be able to cast it turn 3. My fourth round was a straight up punt on my part, I didn't understand my matchup (vs. Elves) to the point of which cards I needed to find, and I sacced a Chalice on 1 to get a Staff of Nin, Steel Hellkite would have won me the game.

So despite not doing great I loved the deck. Much like Enchantress I occasionally got to draw my whole deck, I also cast 2 Wurmcoils and an Ugin in 1 turn, and BSC'd people in 3 games out of nowhere. I told myself despite only owning about 1/4 of my deck I would have it together for Seattle.

Longer story short, I borrowed/proxied the deck for a while, got some practice in, goldfished a ton, and read as much as I could about it online, including this entire thread. I traded in some of my extra staples for the last few pieces friday before the event, and I was good to go. Here is what I played, based on my experience at the invitational, some mentions on here, and my friends who play a bunch of MODO legacy :

4 Metalworker (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Metalworker)
4 Lodestone Golem (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Lodestone%20Golem)
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Lodestone%20Golem)
3 Wurmcoil Engine (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Wurmcoil%20Engine)
1 Steel Hellkite (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Steel%20Hellkite)
1 Platinum Ange (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Platinum%20Angel)
1 Sundering Titan (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Sundering%20Titan)
1 Blightsteel Colossus (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Blightsteel%20Colossus)

4 Chalice of the Void (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Chalice%20of%20the%20Void)
4 Grim Monolith (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Grim%20Monolith)
1 Lightning Greaves (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Lightning%20Greaves)
4 Trinisphere (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Trinisphere)
1 Staff of Domination (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Staff%20of%20Domination)
1 Spine of Ish Sah (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Spine%20of%20Ish%20Sah)

1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Ugin,%20the%20Spirit%20Dragon)
1 Karn Liberated (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Karn%20Liberated)

2 Cavern of Souls (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Cavern%20of%20Souls)
4 Cloudpost (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Cloudpost)
4 Glimmerpost (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Glimmerpost)
4 Ancient Tomb (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Ancient%20Tomb)
4 City of Traitors (http://deckbox.org/mtg/City%20of%20Traitors)
3 Vesuva (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Vesuva)
3 Wasteland (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Wasteland)

SB ::
:: 1 All Is Dust (http://deckbox.org/mtg/All%20Is%20Dust)
:: 1 Staff of Nin (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Staff%20of%20Nin)
:: 1 Witchbane Orb (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Witchbane%20Orb)
:: 1 Crucible of Worlds (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Crucible%20of%20Worlds)
:: 1 Ensnaring Bridge (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Ensnaring%20Bridge)
:: 2 Thorn of Amethyst (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Thorn%20of%20Amethyst)
:: 2 Defense Grid (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Defense%20Grid)
:: 2 Phyrexian Revoker (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Phyrexian%20Revoker)
:: 1 Pithing Needle (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Pithing%20Needle)
:: 2 Grafdigger's Cage (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Grafdigger's%20Cage)
:: 1 Tormod's Crypt (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Tormod's%20Crypt)

I might have been overly worried about storm decks, but I was told the meta was storm-skewed on the west coast. Not sure how true that is, I faced it once in 8 rounds. Faced Elves twice, man did I wish I went with a 1-of Contagion Engine. I play a lot of Modern and PPTQ a lot for standard, so I had 1 bye going in.

Round 1: BYE
Round 2: 2-1 vs Nolan on ANT
Round 3: 2-1 vs Anders on Elves
Round 4: 2-1 vs Larry on Junk
Round 5: 0-2 vs Andrew on Elves
Round 6: 2-0 vs Bryan on Burn
Round 7: 1-2 vs Josh on Merfolk
Round 8: 1-2 vs Jun on RUG Delver
Round 9: 2-1 vs Kevin on Death & Taxes

Showed up for the players meeting anyway, apparently forgetting I got the sleep in special. Good times. Got actual breakfast with my extra hour, could have used the sleep. Oh well. Round 1 bye is sweet either way.

Round 2 : Game 1, I keep a decent 7, he keeps 7, I Chalice for 1, my opponent stares at me when I pass for a good 10 seconds. Draws, plays a land, casts Brainstorm. I raise an eyebrow, tap my chalice. He shrugs, tosses it in the graveyard and passes back. I take 4 or 5 turns to find something to kill him with, getting an active Forgemaster out, planning on BSC on his endstep. He tries to storm through Chalice on 1, I let him cast Ad Naseum and fetch Trinisphere in response with 2 mana floating and him being tapped out, he goes to 4 looking for cards (assuming he was thinking he could play lotus petals for mana and realizing they cost 3) and then scooped, which confirmed he was ANT. Sideboard +2 Thorn, +2 Grafdigger's Cage, +1 Crypt, +1 Pithing Needle, -1 Ugin, -1 Karn, -1 Sundering Titan, -1 Spine, -1 Staff, -1 Wurmcoil.
Game 2 he keeps 7, I mull to 6 for chalice and a sol land and keep a Trinisphere on top. He plays turn 1 duress, curse my luck. I play sol land and lightning greaves and pass (I have a metal worker). He plays a second land, a second Duress for my Trinisphere, and a Cabal Therapy for my Metal Worker. I play another land or two, he kills me easily. Same SB plan.
Game 3 I keep a decent 7, he keeps 7, I drop Chalice for 0 and a Thorn. He again looks pretty dismayed. He scoops after I sac a forgemaster end of turn 4, shows me a hand full of zeroes and gas.

Round 3 : Game 1, he is on 7 and I keep a solid 6 with one of each sol land and a Chalice, Wurmcoil. He won the die roll and plays an elf off a forest. I chalice for 1 on my turn, and he casts 2 visionaries and then NO's for a lethal Craterhoof while I am still looking for a third land. I SB +1 All Is Dust, +1 Ensnaring Bridge, +2 Grafdigger's Cage, +2 Phyrexian Revoker, -1 Platinum Angel, -1 Sundering Titan, -1 Staff, -1 Karn, -1 Ugin, -1 Wurmcoil.
Game 2 I keep a 6 with 3 lands, a Cage, a Trinisphere and a Forgemaster. I get those out turns 1, 2, and 3 respectively, but my opponent manages to play a DRS, Heritage Druid, a Nettle Sentinel and then a Rec Sage(Trinisphere) off those three, bad for me. I follow up with a Monolith and a Metalworker. He plays a symbiote, activates with Heritage Druid/Rec./Sentinel, bounce the Rec. Sage so he can replay it to nuke the Cage (I let him, i have a plan), and NOing (with fetched Arbor) into a Craterhoof for +6 to the team (can only swing with Nettle Sentinel, DRS & Craterhoof) so I sac Forgemaster/Metalworker/Monolith into a Blightsteel and block Craterhoof, going to 5. I had a land and a wurmcoil to drop when I untapped, he had to block with the Symbiote and Rec Sage to live, didn't draw another which was the only thing I could think of that would kill me. Same SB plan.
Game 3 I keep a 7 with turn 1 Chalice on 1, turn 2 Trinisphere. Turn 3 Wurmcoil beings to grind him down, and he doesn't find anything to save him in the next few turns while I add Chalice for 3 and a Forgemaster to my board as back up.

Round 4 : Game 1, I go to 6 and keep a mediocre hand, on the slow side but I have a Trinisphere I can turn 2 and 2 Metalworkers. He keeps 7, and I get wrecked. He opens with fetch into Bayou, DRS. Crap, I think elves again. He follows up with another fetch into KotR. Better, worse? Not sure. But he then plays Hero of Bladehold. I drop Metalworkers but have nothing relevant to play with them, and die in short order. I SB +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Phyrexian Revoker, +1 Crucible, -1 Platinum Angel, -1 Steel Hellkite, -1 Karn, -1 Ugin.
Game 2, we both keep 6, I keep a Chalice on top and he ships a card to the bottom. I Chalice for 1, he plays a land and passes. I play a Trinisphere turn 2, and he plays another land and passes. I play a Chalice for 3 and ship it back, and he moves to discard. I play a Wurmcoil and he scoops them up. Same SB plan.
Game 3 we both keep 7, and he starts off with a DRS. I play a Cloudpost. He adds a land but has nothing else so he attacks for 1 with DRS. I play another Cloudpost and add a Chalice for 1. He plays a KotR and attacks for 1 again. I play a Glimmerpost and a Wurmcoil. he spends a few turns trying to deal with it but I grind him down and add a few more lock pieces, and he only finds one Abrupt Decay.

Round 5 : Game 1, I keep a decent 6 with only turn 1 Trinisphere. He wins the die roll, and plays a DRS. Trinisphere means he only gets to play 1 creature turn 2, a Nettle Sentinel. I find potatoes, he follows up with 2 more elves and then a lethal NO for Craterhoof. I SB the same as the first Elves matchup, as it seemed fine. (+1 All Is Dust, +1 Ensnaring Bridge, +2 Grafdigger's Cage, +2 Phyrexian Revoker, -1 Platinum Angel, -1 Sundering Titan, -1 Staff, -1 Karn, -1 Ugin, -1 Wurmcoil)
Game 2 I kept a mediocre 7 with Trinisphere, Monolith and a Wurmcoil, but double Tomb and a City. I think I should have mulliganed it. Turn 1 trinisphere slowed him down a lot, but he got with Dryad Arbor into 2nd Dryad Arbor, Krosan Grip toasted my sphere and he dumped his hand with a NO for Craterhoof two turns later to seal the deal, even Wurmcoil couldn't beat that.

Round 6 : Game 1 I kept a good looking 7 with Monolith, Chalice x2, Wurmcoil and Tomb, City, City. My opponent keeps 7 as well, and I win the die roll. I play Tomb into Chalice for 1. My opponent plays a fetch and passes. I play City, Monolith, pass. He plays a second fetch, cracks both of them and plays an Eidolon of the Great Revel. Shit. I play second Monolith that I drew, Wurmcoil off both Monoliths, tap City for 2, play second City and play Chalice for 2 and pray. He looks dejected, and I take it home on the back of Wurmcoil like Paul of Dune. I SB +1 Witchbane Orb, +1 Pithing Needle (in case he has Lavamancer), +1 All is Dust, -1 Steel Hellkite, -1 Sundering Titan, -1 Blightsteel.
Game 2 he burns me a little, I get out a Chalice on 1, a Trinisphere and a Wurmcoil. His turn 3 play is Sulfuric Vortex, and he's already put me to 13, and my Wurmcoil is now just a beatstick. He has an Eidolon in play as well. I play a Forgemaster, and pass. After he takes damage, he spends his three mana on Price of Progress which brings me to 5, and he has 2 cards in hand and only 1 mana open. I go to 3 from Vortex, sac the Forgemaster/Chalice/Trinisphere to get a Spine and blow up the Vortex, cross my fingers and attack with Wurmcoil. I live, and he plays a land and passes back. 2 turns later he extends the hand and shows me another two lands in hand.

Round 7 : Game 1 I keep a good 7 and lose the die roll. My opponent opens with Island, Vial, go. I have never played this match up, but I've played against the deck hundreds of times. I am not sure how this goes... I play Chalice on 1, pass. He plays 2 more lands, but Vials in all his dudes. Gets to a solid boardstate of 4 lords and a cursecatcher. "Counters" my Forgemaster into Blightsteel with a single card in hand, which happened to be a Phantasmal Image. Clearly he has played this match up. He taps out for an attack a few turns later and forgot that Blightsteel shuffles back in. I reForge it and kill him. I side +2 Phyrexian Revoker, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Ensnaring Bridge, +1 All Is Dust, -1 Sundering Titan, -1 Blightsteel, -1 Wurmcoil, -1 Karn, -1 Staff of Domination.
Game 2 we both keep 6, and I start with Revoker on Vial, and follow with Chalice on 2. He has a useless vial in play on 2, but he plays turn 3 True-Name Nemesis, turn 4 True-Name, and turn 5 True-Name. Needless to say, I die.
Game 3 I keep what I thought was a great hand on 6, and he keeps a 6 as well. I start with Cloudpost. He plays a vial. I play Glimmerpost into Monolith into Chalice for 2. He plays a lord and passes. I play Ancient Tomb into Forgemaster, and pass back. He plays Back to Basics. Lesson learned... I forgot that was a card. Learn afterwards that he has no way in his 75 to deal with Metalworker or Platinum Angel. My facepalm could probably be heard throughout the room, I assumed he had a dismember or two.

Round 8 : Game 1 I lose the die roll, and I am going into this knowing I need to win the next two. Not the best place to be. I have no land 7, and a 1 Vesuva 6, so I keep a 5 with 3 lands, a Metalworker and a Forgemaster. My opponent keeps 7 and plays a turn 1 Nimble Mongoose. I draw Greaves, play sol land into Greaves. A hesitation suggests he has Daze, or makes me want to think he has Daze. He drops another land and a Delver and passes. I play sol land 2, and tap both for Metalworker. Move to equip, and he bolts it. He drops another Nimble Mongoose after failing to flip his delver, and beats in. I add Monolith and a Trinisphere. He flips Delver off a stifle and attacks, then bolts me bringing me to 4, the bolt giving him threshold. I draw a land, and my last card is Forgemaster, giving me a single out (killing him this turn) for which he has a Stifle to stop. Awesome. I SB +1 Tormod's Crypt, +2 Defense Grid, +1 Ensnaring Bridge, -1 Platinum Angel, -1 Spine of Ish Sah, -1 Staff of Domination, -1 Metalworker.
Game 2, mull to 6 (Cloudpost, Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, Chalice, Trinisphere, Wurmcoil), he keeps 7. I have to play a Cloudpost tapped. He wastes it. I play Cloudpost again. He plays fetch into Trop into Nimble Mongoose. I play Glimmerpost, gain 2, try Trinisphere, it gets Dazed. He replays Trop and main phases a Brainstorm looking for something (which later appears to be land. I play a Vesuva copying Cloudpost, and a Chalice for 1, which he Forces exiling Force. He beats, and I drop a bit more. He adds a Goyf. I play another Glimmerpost, and drop the Wurmcoil. He has run out of counters, adds a Mongoose. I pass, he drops a Wasteland and nukes a cloudpost, and passes back. I beat, he double blocks and we trade, and he bolts the lifelink token. He adds another Mongoose, and I add another Wurmcoil. The race is close, but lifelink is king.
Game 3 he easily sits on his 7, and I have to mull to 5. I keep Cloudpost, Cloudpost, City of Traitors, Karn, Ugin. I ask myself why I have those two in my deck. I am never really in this game, but I didn't think 4 was reasonable even if it was Chalice, Bridge, City, Tomb? My first play got Dazed, a Cloudpost got wasted turn 4, and the rest was slow and painful history.

Round 9 : I attend a few GP's a year, so byes good for me and legacy events are rare, so I was in for round 9. I also missed 2 byes on points the previous year by about 100 points, so I damn sure won't miss this year.
Game 1 kept a City, City, Metalworker, Metalworker, Monolith, Wurmcoil, Trinisphere hand. Awesome if it works. I play City>Monolith>Metalworker, pass. He plays Wasteland, Vial, go. I draw a Sundering Titan, activate Metalworker for 8, cast Wurmcoil and Metalworker 2. He drops a MoM, wastes my City. I draw another Trinisphere, activate both Metalworkers and cast the rest of my hand. He scoops them up. I SB +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Revoker, +1 Crucible, +1 Ensnaring Bridge, -1 Spine of Ish Sah, -1 Sundering Titan, -1 Trinisphere, -1 Blightsteel Colossus, -1 Platinum Angel.
Game 2 we both get rolling okay, I have down a Trinisphere and a Lodestone Golem, he has a Thalia, a MoM and a Vryn Wingmare with a Vial. End of turn he StP's my Lodestone, then untaps and casts Armageddon with 4 lands. Neither of us seem to have a problem with this and dump our lands. He attacks, and passes. I draw my non-land card, and then realize that he needed to pay 6 mana for his own Armageddon. I point this out, he curses, and asks if we should call a judge. I'm like, "Man, this match doesn't matter. Let's just go to game 3." He says he will just take the loss, I said we can play it out and if you really want to scoop to me after that it is up to you. Same SB.
Game 3 I keep a solid 6, he keeps a 7 but looks unsure. I drop Cloudpost, he drops plains into MoM, I drop Cloudpost number 2. He drops a mystic or an Avenger turn 2, I don't remember which. What I remember is it wasn't Thalia, because I drop a Glimmerpost and play turn 3 Karn, and plus him. The guy looks at his hand a minute, and then extends his hand.

All in all, I felt good about the day despite not making day 2. Deck was pretty solid, my mainboard was slightly off for my MU's and I really wish I had put a Contagion Engine in my sideboard, but I felt good about most of my plays and my mulligans (except for round 8, that was damn brutal). I would love to hear comments about my deck choices and the match-ups I played, especially if anyone has a better idea on how to approach them than what I appeared to be doing.
The majority of this report is from memory and based on the short notes I wrote after each round, so I may have some details mixed up, but for the most part it should be fairly accurate. I didn't get to staff-combo anyone, but BSC'ing a few people did lift my spirits a bit.
Cheers,
--Ross


Realized I recalled something wrong while tired, fixed round 8 after my friend pointed it out

[forestfold]

As a side note, no MUD decks made it to Day 2, which was a bit of a shock to me. I expected at least one or two, but no. Exactly zero did. Part of the issue is probably that Shardless BUG just absolutely tears our deck apart if we do not win quick enough. Also, we need to make our deck more reliant against Liliana. I think that's one of the biggest weak points in our deck right now.

I talked to two other MUD players on the Cloudpost version, I do not recall their names right now but one was playing next to me in round 9 (also 6-3) and another guy was walking by and saw us comparing sideboards, and also chipped in that he was 6-3 and playing MUD. So a few of us riding the cusp.
I also strongly considered Hangarback because it was a construct, and it gets value when you're facing non-StP decks, and when sacrificing it to Forgemasters. Which can then be sacrificed if not needed.

[L10]

I'm, unfortunately, not surprised, MUD isn't fancy in this meta. I think we need to come up with new approaches (as you're all doing already :cool:)
For myself, I'm still not sure what direction to go, but time will tell. The new deck needs to beat Shardless BUG, that's for sure.
Imitate. Assimilate. Innovate.

These are words by Clark Terry that I live by. I have spoken to a lot of Mudslingers this weekend, and many have played this deck for no more than eight months. In spite of this, many of them have solid 5-4, 6-3 records. So most of them are still in the imitation phase going into the assimilation phase. They all seem ecstatic about playing MUD, so I hope these newcomers will help brew new ideas coming out from the assimilation phase to innovation phase in time for the next GP. We already see much innovation coming out of Europe and Japan already.


All in all, I felt good about the day despite not making day 2. Deck was pretty solid, my mainboard was slightly off for my MU's and I really wish I had put a Contagion Engine in my sideboard, but I felt good about most of my plays and my mulligans (except for round 8, that was damn brutal). I would love to hear comments about my deck choices and the match-ups I played, especially if anyone has a better idea on how to approach them than what I appeared to be doing.
The majority of this report is from memory and based on the short notes I wrote after each round, so I may have some details mixed up, but for the most part it should be fairly accurate. I didn't get to staff-combo anyone, but BSC'ing a few people did lift my spirits a bit.
Cheers,
--Ross
Thanks for the very well written report, Ross! It was a great read.


I talked to two other MUD players on the Cloudpost version, I do not recall their names right now but one was playing next to me in round 9 (also 6-3) and another guy was walking by and saw us comparing sideboards, and also chipped in that he was 6-3 and playing MUD. So a few of us riding the cusp.
I also strongly considered Hangarback because it was a construct, and it gets value when you're facing non-StP decks, and when sacrificing it to Forgemasters. Which can then be sacrificed if not needed.
I also talked to a few with 6-3 records too. In fact, two of them had 6-2-1 records, and they drew playing against each other at Round 8. Brutal. At least we know two players who were on the cusp of 7-2, and about five other players with 6-3. So close, but not good enough. The good news is that for the next GP, 6-3 is good enough to make it on Day 2. :)

[darkgh0st]

Imitate. Assimilate. Innovate.
I've tried many variants of MUD to the point that I almost gave up on MUD as a whole. Then MUD-Post pulled me through the last strand. Now, new cards come with new deck possibilities. MGB or anybody else working on European MUD (Ulamog-style)? A first or second turn Coercive Portal is brutal in terms of advantage. This is done by the usual items (Monolith, Sol Lands) but with more chances with Voltaic Key and Basalt Monolith. And I can't believe it has to be Basalt Monolith, Worn Powerstone and Metalworker doesn't do it in terms of speed. Once I have a decent amount of the deck, I will take it out for a test run but with some tweaks. (Karakas isn't easily affordable for me.) My test list currently includes:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Grim Monolith
4 Basalt Monolith
4 Voltaic Key (may cut to 3)
4 Coercive Portal
2 Bottled Cloister (feels like Portal game 1 but to side out games 2 and 3)
2-3 Ulamog
X Wurmcoil
1 Batterskull (maybe)
I'm still trying to figure out the rest of the cards.

I'm also working on a Stax build with the same concept (try to get Stax out as early as possible).

Thanks to Ross as well for the report. I'm really hoping MUD can consistently get us 7-2 or better in the future, despite 6-3 making it next year.
On a side note, I'm hoping to find time for a medium sized tourney this weekend for more MUD discoveries.

[Runninonwater]

I'm, unfortunately, not surprised, MUD isn't fancy in this meta. I think we need to come up with new approaches (as you're all doing already :cool:)
For myself, I'm still not sure what direction to go, but time will tell. The new deck needs to beat Shardless BUG, that's for sure.

Im not that tuned into legacy yet and i don't know my meta but that looks like a steep hill to climb.
This is the only deck i have so i don't have the luxury to switch deck haha, but im used to the phrase:" The struggle is real".

[darkgh0st]

Im not that tuned into legacy yet and i don't know my meta but that looks like a steep hill to climb.
This is the only deck i have so i don't have the luxury to switch deck haha, but im used to the phrase:" The struggle is real".

What is the struggle with ShardlessBUG? The few times I've lost to it was because my deck turned on me and anything from them is a win. For the most part, the Shardless player where I play doesn't know what to do against me as Trinisphere and Lodestone slows him down a lot.

[Stuart]

What is the struggle with ShardlessBUG? The few times I've lost to it was because my deck turned on me and anything from them is a win. For the most part, the Shardless player where I play doesn't know what to do against me as Trinisphere and Lodestone slows him down a lot.

I'm wondering the same thing. I've only played Shardless once, but my sense was that our taxing effects are devastating to them. Traditional BUG seems way scarier to us.

[Runninonwater]

What is the struggle with ShardlessBUG? The few times I've lost to it was because my deck turned on me and anything from them is a win. For the most part, the Shardless player where I play doesn't know what to do against me as Trinisphere and Lodestone slows him down a lot.

I was referring mostly to the whole list, i haven't faced a BUG deck yet but i've heard they lose to Ugin.

[MGB]

Guys, the Legends version of MUD with Basalt Monoliths and Thran Dynamos has a much better matchup against BGx than the traditional version does.

Legends MUD has no real targets for creature removal in G1, and generally weathers Wasteland effects better due to the preponderance of mana accelerators in the deck.

Legends MUD also gets Ugin and its fatties out faster (unless Traditional MUD can get Forgemaster going earlier, but if Forgemaster dies to Lili or something, then it's slower).

[Wilkin]

Never had problems vs shardless bug. Sure, they have force and decay but usually not enough when I play them, they also don't have as many wastelands as other decks. Bug delver on the other hand is so annoying with daze and spell pierce and a full set of wastes. Legends mud does look interesting. I think I'm an ulamog or 2 short of the list.

Thinking of adding spellskites to my board as there's an uptick of infect in my meta. Hate playing against infect. Elves is annoying too but with miracles in big numbers they are kept in check.

[Airwave]

Im not that tuned into legacy yet and i don't know my meta but that looks like a steep hill to climb.
This is the only deck i have so i don't have the luxury to switch deck haha, but im used to the phrase:" The struggle is real".

Maybe you don't need the luxury. MUD can shift very easily to all types, aggro, control, combo. That's one of the things I like about it.

MUD, the shapeshifter :tongue:

[L10]

Well, I scrubbed out of GP Seattle. I had 2 byes, then I promptly lost 2 rounds vs BUG, won a round vs merfolk, then lost a round vs deadguy ale, which put me at 3-3 which was reason enough to drop. I had very bad luck with draws and matchups, so I'm pretty disappointed.

I'm going to put MUD in the corner for a bit.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsAS9lp1W7g

[Silverflame]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsAS9lp1W7g

Video didn't load so I searched it on youtube, now I'm starting to think MUD players have more in common than the age. I'd have to recommend this for flavorness too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDRHx4cPgbE

[darkgh0st]

I played some MUD yesterday. The Retreating Reliquary deck is solid and is getting a lot of attention. We both T3 kill each other all 3 games, but he won the die roll, so I ended up losing. I'm feeling like Ratchet Bomb/Powder Keg aren't up to speed anymore. I'm looking at switching to Dismembers, just a small tweak to help against a lot of matchups.

The most fun I had in a game was when esper mentors got 2 Mentors out and I had a Wurmcoil in boots out at 9 life, which stabilized me. He also had a Jace Vryn emblem. Long game got me milled down to 3 cards with Blightsteel shuffling a couple of times. My top card out of those 3 was Forgemaster, casted it under Cavern and an active Chalice at 1. Fetch for BSC and win.

[Ganfar]

Are there any MUD list playing Coercive Portal? It seems strong against bug matchup.

[MGB]

Are there any MUD list playing Coercive Portal? It seems strong against bug matchup.

The European Legends MUD list is built around 4 Coercive Portal stabilizing into late-game bombs. Check this list out:

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18619&iddeck=141089

[L10]

I got quite a few PMs in the lines of "good luck" or "stay strong", as if I am quitting Magic or giving up on MUD because I want to take a small break. Thanks for your concerns! I am actually taking the rest of the year off Magic, to do other stuff like swing dancing, video gaming (plan to play Smash 4 and Street Fighter V at Evo next year), and cycling training (I do about three to four centuries a year, and I want to beat all my times this year). I am also a programmer and build robots for a living, and I want to refine my craft over the winter break. Me taking a break away from Magic has nothing to do with Magic. I just have different goals. :)

http://evo.shoryuken.com/


Video didn't load so I searched it on youtube, now I'm starting to think MUD players have more in common than the age. I'd have to recommend this for flavorness too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDRHx4cPgbE
I like your style. ;)


Are there any MUD list playing Coercive Portal? It seems strong against bug matchup.
Coercive Portal is strong. I have two copies in my SB against the BUG and Miracles match up, as well as any match up that gets grindy in which having card advantage is key. I contemplate having them in my main, because I tend to try to win as quickly as possible on Game 1 for my build. Coercive Portal is very strong though, and I feel is a great contender to have two/three in the MD in PostMUD.

[darkgh0st]

@L10: hoping to see you here once in a while.


I've been making a wishlist to how I want my future deck to be, and hoping it will still be MUD. The wishlist includes:

- non-blue deck
- explosive
- still pretty consistent (which MUD fails to do sometimes)
- has a way not to run out of gas (Coercive Portal in MUD)

I will be off trying other MUD variations. And post my findinds here.

[Greiver]

First of all let me say thank you to everyone on this thread, it has helped me a good deal in building my first legacy deck. I played standard for quite a while, but got tired of cards cycling out and then being with a fraction of what I paid. I know I can sell/trade before they rotate but I like collecting. Thus I started playing modern about a year and a half ago before building MUD in the last few weeks. Here is my list, any comments or suggestions are welcome and appreciated!

Land: 24
2 wasteland
3 vesuva
3 cavern of souls
4 cloudpost
4 glimmer post
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors

Creatures: 19
4 metalworker
4 lodestone golem
4 kuldotha forgemaster
3 wurmcoil engine
1 blightsteel colossus
1 sundering titan
1 steel hellkite
1 platinum angel

Other artifacts: 17
4 grim monolith
4 chalice of the void
4 trinisphere
1 trading post
1 lightning greaves
1 staff of domination
1 staff of nin
1 spine of ish sah

Sideboard:
2 tormonds crypt
2 surgical extraction
2 ratchet bomb
1 pithing needle
3 phyrexian revoker
1 spine of ish sah
1 karn liberated
1 sundering titan

It's a pretty straight forward list, probably bland compared to some of spicy tech I'm seeing in here. I've been reading from this thread as much as I can but there is a ton of info and the thread itself is huge. Thx for any input!

[darkgh0st]

Hi Greiver,
Glad to have another MUD player.
What is your meta like?
List looks pretty stock, other than changing the Trading Post to Ugin.

[Stuart]

List looks great, Greiver! As Darkghost suggested, you should consider adding a couple Ugins - it's potentially the most powerful card in the deck.

Not sure what your local meta looks like, but personally, I'd vote for dropping the Surgicals from the board. They get more expensive thanks to Lodestone, and they're shut off by Chalice. Platinum Angel and Crucible of Worlds have both been sideboard all-stars for me, but again, it depends on your meta.