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potatodavid
11-17-2015, 10:50 AM
Never had problems vs shardless bug. Sure, they have force and decay but usually not enough when I play them, they also don't have as many wastelands as other decks. Bug delver on the other hand is so annoying with daze and spell pierce and a full set of wastes. Legends mud does look interesting. I think I'm an ulamog or 2 short of the list.

Thinking of adding spellskites to my board as there's an uptick of infect in my meta. Hate playing against infect. Elves is annoying too but with miracles in big numbers they are kept in check.

Shardless can suck if they land Liliana in my experience.

Silverflame
11-17-2015, 09:39 PM
Still waiting to see what the new symbol means, but it seens playable.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUDhtJxUYAEXzy6.jpg

darkgh0st
11-17-2015, 09:58 PM
It means you have to use two "Wastes" mana to cast him. Think of it as the Snow costs in some of the Coldsnap cards. There are Wastes basic lands and non-basic lands that produce "wastes" mana as well.

Wilkin
11-17-2015, 09:59 PM
Still waiting to see what the new symbol means, but it seens playable.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUDhtJxUYAEXzy6.jpg

Not sure either. I looked at mythicspoiler.com and there's a basic land with that mana symbol.

So, I'm guessing you need to be able to cast the new Kozilek with 2 of that mana symbol which kinda sucks for MUD. I've tried MUD before splashing red and I found it to be very awkward. I imagine it would be the same for this new mana.

Silverflame
11-17-2015, 10:51 PM
Not sure either. I looked at mythicspoiler.com and there's a basic land with that mana symbol.

So, I'm guessing you need to be able to cast the new Kozilek with 2 of that mana symbol which kinda sucks for MUD. I've tried MUD before splashing red and I found it to be very awkward. I imagine it would be the same for this new mana.

If we need the "Wastes" land, it will be awful, but I wonder if it means only colorless mana can be used to pay for it, then it would be castable. I could'nt find a definitive answer yet.
Being able to discard to counter looks sweet, although just looking at it, the other kozilek seens better.

Mockingbird
11-18-2015, 12:39 AM
Not sure either. I looked at mythicspoiler.com and there's a basic land with that mana symbol.

So, I'm guessing you need to be able to cast the new Kozilek with 2 of that mana symbol which kinda sucks for MUD. I've tried MUD before splashing red and I found it to be very awkward. I imagine it would be the same for this new mana.

There's a number of interpretations... also, has this been confirmed yet?

The one that would be the most beneficial to the general public is that the symbols mean that colorless mana has to be spent on it (like Snow mana needs to come from snow permanents). The important difference is we could cast Kozilek with Cloudpost/Ancient Tomb/Metalworker/etc. But it couldn't be cast off ten mountains because that's ten red mana.

I'm not sure how much we need this even if it's real. Unlike the Eldrazi run in Rise of Eldrazi, this doesn't eat the battlefield (or the deck if we're looking at Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger). The control aspect is less flexible and more costly than Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, who can also draw 7 cards. The evasion is... there I guess, but it's still not as certain as Blightsteel Colossus, which speaking of him, Kozilek isn't an aritfact.

The improvement over the original Kozilek though is it encourages overextending, which is actually something we need. I'm not sure what I want to discard for the counterbalancing other than spare Trinispheres, but it's something. Like Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger though, I am disappointed that the grave trigger is gone.

It's useful, but I think I'd rather just use the original Kozilek to be honest. *Testing is more than welcome to prove me wrong, because Kozilek is my favorite Eldrazi overall with mechanics tied to manipulation*.

Greiver
11-18-2015, 01:47 AM
I must have had a duh moment with the surgical extractions lol. I think you are right about Ugin, I need to procure some of them. With the holidays right around the corner and a wife who is "annoyed" at how much I've spent in cards lately, is gong to be a bit. I have a crucible I'm going to throw in the dude. I also have a few ensnaring bridges, I just don't think they are great for my build. They leave me going for a slooow staff of nin win. Maybe a staff metalworker combo turn, getting bridge off the board with spine. Maybe I just go with a 4th Revoker with the crucible. 4th wurmcoil in the board seems fine too. Thx for noticing the obvious problem with extraction cotv. I'm oblivious to these things sometimes lol. Maybe it's worth gong to a 3rd copy of tormonds crypt? I was also thinking about perilous vault. It can sweep and it is metal worker fuel. Thoughts?

Airwave
11-18-2015, 09:43 AM
There's a number of interpretations... also, has this been confirmed yet?

The one that would be the most beneficial to the general public is that the symbols mean that colorless mana has to be spent on it (like Snow mana needs to come from snow permanents). The important difference is we could cast Kozilek with Cloudpost/Ancient Tomb/Metalworker/etc. But it couldn't be cast off ten mountains because that's ten red mana.



If this is true, this set could be amazing for us. I'm hoping for great cards with low converted mana cost. We'll be the only one's profiting from it in legacy :cool:

Quote from rumor mill:"


I wouldn't be surprised if <> ends up being evergreen and not a new "snow mana". It solves the existing color-pie bending problem with printing artifacts that do cool things, if going forward <> means "must be paid with colorless", they can use that to make better artifacts. Doesn't hurt the color pie much because you'd need to hurt your manabase to gain access to it.

Wow... it's like.... christmas then... :tongue:

Stuart
11-18-2015, 11:08 AM
I must have had a duh moment with the surgical extractions lol. I think you are right about Ugin, I need to procure some of them. With the holidays right around the corner and a wife who is "annoyed" at how much I've spent in cards lately, is gong to be a bit. I have a crucible I'm going to throw in the dude. I also have a few ensnaring bridges, I just don't think they are great for my build. They leave me going for a slooow staff of nin win. Maybe a staff metalworker combo turn, getting bridge off the board with spine. Maybe I just go with a 4th Revoker with the crucible. 4th wurmcoil in the board seems fine too. Thx for noticing the obvious problem with extraction cotv. I'm oblivious to these things sometimes lol. Maybe it's worth gong to a 3rd copy of tormonds crypt? I was also thinking about perilous vault. It can sweep and it is metal worker fuel. Thoughts?

I'm personally upping my board to 4 Tormod's Crypt, cause I struggle with Reanimator. If you have some Reanimator in your meta, going to 3 might not be the worst idea.

--

Played over at Whose Turn Is It? Games last night. 8 people was enough for 3 rounds, so it was a quick night.

Round I: Stoneblade: 2-1
- I forgot to take notes and my memory is terrible, so I don't have much to say. After Game 1 I had him down as Miracles, but as we were sideboarding he said he was on Blade. The Stoneforges and equipments Game 2 and 3 made that a little more clear, but he just didn't ever have enough of a clock on me. Chalice did some work for me, if I recall.

Round II: Reanimator: 2-1
- Game 1: Playing against a buddy of mine I have yet to beat; generally I have poor luck with drawing good prison hands against him. This time, though, I hit a dream hand on the play: it was something like Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, Glimmerpost, Chalice, Trinisphere, Lodestone, and something else. I topdecked a Waste after I had the Chalice and Trinisphere down, so he was totally locked out.
- Game 2: (+1 Spine, +2 Thorn, +2 Tormod's, -2 Ugin, -1 Coercive Portal, -1 Staff of Nin, -1 Emperion.) He Thoughtseizes my Tormod's on turn 1, then gets down a Sire of Insanity turn 2. I can't recover from that.
- Game 3: I get down a Thorn and Crypt right away, and start laying lock pieces. I build up to ~24 mana on the board, but the only threat I ever draw is a Metalworker. However, he's sufficiently locked out, so I just beat him down with Metalworker for the win :cool:

Round III: DnT: 0-2
- Game 1: My first time playing DnT with MUD; it's not really around here, but I definitely need some practice for bigger tournaments. Game 1 he has a Stoneforge with a Batterskull, Jitte, and SoFaI on it. I have an Emperion and some Chalices out, but the Jitte makes it impossible to play through.
- Game 2: Things are going OK, and the board quickly becomes 2 Lodestones vs 2 Serra Avengers. I feel fine, but then he puts a Jitte down that I can't really play through. Oh well :cry:

2-1 was good enough for $9 store credit, so I grabbed a Torment Grim Lavamancer that I needed for beautifying my Burn deck.

I'm hoping to play at Pat's on Thursday. This weekend I'm visiting a buddy in Houston, so we're gonna play Asgard Games on Saturday. Do any of you play there?

Fry
11-18-2015, 12:47 PM
I'm personally upping my board to 4 Tormod's Crypt, cause I struggle with Reanimator. If you have some Reanimator in your meta, going to 3 might not be the worst idea.


If you're having issues with Reanimator, instead of giving them foreknowledge that you have grave hate, maybe try a split with Faerie Macabre?

Also what's your list look like? I rarely have had problems with Reanimator. It's happened of course, but in my experience Chalice on and 1 and 2 pretty much just wins the game, Shaw and Tell can be annoying, but we have much bigger bombs than they do, Spine, Ensnaring Bridge (from my board), Platinum X, Staff of Domination to tap them down, etc. Also I play 1 Thousand-Year Elixer instead of a 3rd Lightning Greaves, so having that in play and they Show and Tell, Forgemaster can just win the game on the spot.

Stuart
11-20-2015, 01:25 AM
As promised, played at Pat's Games tonight. 4 Rounds.

Round I: Burn: 2-1
- Game 1: Quick Chalice on 1 & 2, followed by Lodestone and Platinum Emperion.
- Game 2: I mull to 5 and have a Tomb, and he's got a quick Guide and Vortex. I never catch up.
- Game 3: He puts the hurt on me off a Swiftspear and Eidolon (which was weird, but I followed the Eidolon with a Monolith and Grieves). He Smashes my Chalice so he can Bolt my face, putting me at 4. However, that leaves an opening for me to Forgemaster into Blightsteel + Grieves.

Round II: Hedron Crab!!! 1-2
- Game 1: The Crabs are back!!! I lock him out with Chalice & Co and apply quick beats.
- Game 2: He mills me out very quickly.
- Game 3: A very long game that nearly goes to time. Eventually we get to a point where he has a Null Rod, 2 Propagandas, and a Strix. I've got a Platinum Angel with Grieves, plus a bunch of stuff I can't activate. I get him down to 1 through the Propaganda funnel, but he plays a Rebuild and I die to an empty library.

Round III: BUG: 2-0
- Game 1: He quickly beats me down to 1 with Goyf and a pair of Dark Confidants. In response to a lethal swing, I Forgemaster an Emperion. He has no answers and scoops.
- Game 2: Lots of midrangey stuff happens and he's in good shape with 2 Goyfs, a Confidant, and a Null Rod. I cast an Ugin, he doesn't counter it, I wipe his board, he never recovers and scoops shortly therafter.

Round IV: Aluren: 1-2
- Game 1: We trade beats until we're both at 1, but he does some weird Aluren shit and wins. I don't really remember.
- Game 2: I Chalice > Trinisphere > Lodestone and he scoops.
- Game 3: The board gets to be 1 Chalice, 1 Trinisphere and 3 Lodestone vs 2 Strix and a Clique. I don't want to attack into Strixes that will make it easy for him to combo off, while he can whack me for 3 each turn with the Clique. I proceed to draw only mana for the rest of the game, while he draws a Jitte and makes short work of me.

Quick points:
- My report is pretty lame and basic. Sorry.
- I mulled a lot tonight. I went to 4 or 5 at least once per match.
- Jitte has been terrorizing me lately.
- Playing in Houston on Saturday! Let's hope for 3-1 or better.

movingtonewao
11-20-2015, 01:52 AM
lol the hedron crab guy is a regular at your store? I remember you wrote a report before and the crab guy was one of your matchups.

Stuart
11-20-2015, 11:27 AM
lol the hedron crab guy is a regular at your store? I remember you wrote a report before and the crab guy was one of your matchups.

Yeah, he is. He's a judge with a very large collection, so he rotates decks all the time.

It's somewhat embarrassing for me to lose to him, what with having Platinum Angel in the board. Although if I remember correctly, he's gone 3-1 or 4-0 both times I've seen him bust out the Crabs . . . :eek:

evanmartyr
11-20-2015, 11:37 AM
Yeah, he is. He's a judge with a very large collection, so he rotates decks all the time.

It's somewhat embarrassing for me to lose to him, what with having Platinum Angel in the board. Although if I remember correctly, he's gone 3-1 or 4-0 both times I've seen him bust out the Crabs . . . :eek:

Any list? I'm curious...

Stuart
11-20-2015, 12:09 PM
Any list? I'm curious...

I don't have a list, but some components I know are there:

- Force
- Daze
- Brainstorm
- Hedron Crab
- Mesmeric Orb
- Mind Funeral
- Archive Trap
- Visions of Beyond
- Ghost Quarter
- Fetches
- Propaganda, Null Rod, Strix, and Rebuild in the board

I'm sure part of his success is people being caught off guard, but still, it's a pretty sick deck.

LeaPlath
11-22-2015, 07:42 AM
So what is the general consensus on Ugin at the moment?

Currently I'm going 1 Ugin, 1 Karn main with Karn being my preferred walker for sniping lands and threats as well as threatening to restart the game.

My list, for reference:

Creature (17)

1x Blightsteel Colossus

3x Kuldotha Forgemaster
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Metalworker
1x Platinum Emperion
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Sundering Titan
2x Wurmcoil Engine

Planeswalker (2)

1x Karn Liberated
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Artifact (17)

4x Chalice of the Void
2x Coercive Portal
4x Grim Monolith
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Staff of Domination
4x Trinisphere

Land (24)

4x Ancient Tomb
3x Cavern of Souls
4x City of Traitors
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
1x Vesuva
4x Wasteland

Sideboard (15)

1x All Is Dust
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Pithing Needle
1x Ratchet Bomb
1x Sundering Titan
2x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Tsabo's Web

darkgh0st
11-22-2015, 10:18 AM
@LeaPlath: I think the consensus is still around 2 Ugins, and 0-2 Karns in the side. I've recently changed my generic MUD list to only have 1 Ugin main, 1 Karn side, from having 1 Ugin main, 1 Ugin side, and 2 Karns side.

Stuart
11-22-2015, 05:03 PM
LeaPlath: I'm pretty certain I've never lost a game with Ugin out, and I've heard similar things from other Mud players. I'd recommend 2 maindeck, though as always it depends on your meta.

#

Went down to Houston for the weekend. On Friday I jammed a bunch of games with my buddy; I wanted practice against DnT, and he wanted to try out Jund, so we played both matchups for a while. Jund seems fairly even (unless there's a Lili on the board). DnT is still in their favor, but I'm confident I could get it to the 40:60 range.

On Saturday we went into Asgard Games. I didn't get a headcount, but I'd guess there were 12 or so players. Everyone seemed really nice.

Round I: DnT: 1-2
- Game 1: I didn't know this guy, but he starts off with a Waste and Vial. I'm willing to bet it's not Merfolk or Goblins, and a turn 2 Thalia proves me right. Thalia, Waste, and a Revoker lock me out of the game.
- Game 2: I get an Ugin down turn 2, then an Emperion with Grieves turn 3.
- Game 3: It's a very long game. I have an awesome board state with Needle on Vial, Chalice on 1, Trinisphere, 2 Metalworkers, and a Forgemaster. However, I play conservatively and don't activate the Forgemaster, cause I'm concerned that if I do, he'll kill whatever I tutor and then use Council's Judgement or Cataclysm to take control. Unfortunately, he Oblivion Rings my Needle, then Vials in 3 consecutive Flickerwisps and gets there.

Round II: ANT: 1-2
- Game 1: New Legacy player, who oddly chose ANT as his starting point. I saw he was on ANT, so I mull looking for prison pieces. I keep Chalice, Trinisphere, Monolith, Metalworker, a threat, and Glimmerpost. For some reason, I think the odds are good that I'll scry/draw into a land and start off with Chalice. Instead, I never draw another land and he kills me after a few turns.
- Game 2: I draw a nuts prison hand and win.
- Game 3: I keep an opener of Ancient Tomb, 2 City of Traitors, 2 Chalice, and something (Metalworker and Monolith, maybe?). I feel great. He does a turn 1 blind Cabal Therapy on Chalice, and I'm left with nothing. He combos off turn 2.

Round III: Pox: 2-1
- Game 1: I'm feeling a little deflated, and knowing he's on Pox doesn't help. However, he's a nice guy, so it seems like we'll have some fun. Cursed Scroll and Lili lock me out of the game quickly.
- Game 2: I land a turn 2 Crucible followed by a turn 3 Coercive Portal. I'm able to pull way ahead and stick an Ugin, which does it.
- Game 3: The exact same thing happens. I fall deeply in love with Portal and Crucible.

Round IV: 12-Post: 2-0
- Game 1: Again, I know what he's on! A turn 1 Chalice shuts off a lot of his hand. A little while later I Metalworker + Staff for the win.
- Game 2: I get a very quick Grieves to Forgemaster to Blightsteel.

Thoughts:
- I might add a 2nd Coercive Portal to the board. It was an all-star in every grindy DnT, Jund, and Pox matchup I played this weekend, and has been great in the past as well.
- I was disappointed with the DnT loss. However, I understand the logic behind my misplay, so whatever.
- This weekend put me at exactly 50 tournament matches on MUD since I built it in September. So far I'm 30-18-2.
- Before and after the tournament, I jammed some Vintage. I played my Legacy Belcher vs TPS and Shops, respectively. The matchups were close or even slightly in my favor, so I think I'm gonna toss some Moxen etc into Belcher and make it my Vintage deck :laugh:

Rikter
11-23-2015, 11:55 AM
If you're having issues with Reanimator, instead of giving them foreknowledge that you have grave hate, maybe try a split with Faerie Macabre?

Also what's your list look like? I rarely have had problems with Reanimator. It's happened of course, but in my experience Chalice on and 1 and 2 pretty much just wins the game, Shaw and Tell can be annoying, but we have much bigger bombs than they do, Spine, Ensnaring Bridge (from my board), Platinum X, Staff of Domination to tap them down, etc. Also I play 1 Thousand-Year Elixer instead of a 3rd Lightning Greaves, so having that in play and they Show and Tell, Forgemaster can just win the game on the spot.

I don't know if anyone else has been championing Faerie Macabre, I know I have mentioned him in earlier posts, and in terms of just reanimator I think that Macabre is better...they can't counter it, and they don't have time to respond to it, plus you never have to worry about sphere or chalice interaction, AND you can prevent them from reanimating on their T1 on the play, which is nice. Plus, you generally need to run out crypt preemptively against reanimator, which just gives them a chance to play around it. Also, no one, in a million years, is going to expect the faerie. Reanimator will be focused on chalice, or cage, or crypt, or relic, obvious stuff that they can see.

I will say that if you are facing a lot more lands decks, that you may be able to get more use out of crypt. Macabre is still reasonable against lands, stripping out two targets is generally going to be good, but as the game goes later you will get more value out of a crypt. Lands is so slow and grindy that hitting a card like crypt in the mid to late game is going to have a ton of value, way more than Faerie, and you are much more likely to hit this game state against lands.

I have seen less reanimator at the big events these days, and if you are planning on making a deep run, there is surely an argument for gearing towards beating the lands deck, because they are always representing at the top.

Rikter
11-23-2015, 01:49 PM
I am not going to be running MUD this weekend in jersey, I am sticking with a retooled Miracles after a disastrous EE3. But I am planning on picking up MUD again, and I've been breweing.

Some of you may consider this heresy, but I am strongly considering cutting 4 maindeck chalice of the void, and dropping to 2 or 3 trinispheres (from 4).

I used to really like chalice, but against all the delver decks running around, it's just been absolutely horrific on the draw. On the play, sticking it turn 1, thats great news. Even if they countered it they had to force it, so card advantage. But if it isn't turn 1 on the play, it's a huge liability. Even running it turn 1 on the draw is rough because of all the dazes, and delver can get by off of sticking a single turn 1 delver and flipping it anyways. If they have wasteland it's even easier. Having to wait until turn 2 or later to cast chalice against delver gives the deck plenty of time to do what it needs to do.

But rikter, with our chalice at 1 we can shut off all of their cantrips! We can slow them down and lock them out, shouldn't we be playing to that? I say no, we should not care at all about locking delver out. Why? Card quality. We play big mana stuff that far outclasses crappy ass delver of secrets, or anything else they are going to dig for. When you have a wurmcoil engine in play, do you really care if delver can brainstorm and ponder? What exactly are they going to hit that you are at all concerned with? We really just need to land one threat...preboard a card like sundering titan is going to usually be, at MINIMUM, a 5 for 1. Resolving Ugin ends games. The list goes on.

What am I proposing to fill the 6 slots with? (-4 chalice, -2+ trinisphere) Right now I am strongly considering running pithing needle main in place of the chalices. A summary of needle targets against the popular decks:

RUG Delver - Wasteland, Fetches
BUG Delver - Wasteland, Liliana, Jace
Death and Taxes - Wasteland, Port, Vial, Stoneforge Mystic, Jitte, Batterskull, SoFI, Managara, Karakas
Elves - Wirewood Symbiote, Deathrite Shaman, Quirion Ranger
Miracles - Jace the Mindsculptor, Sensei's Top
Lands - Wasteland, Maze of Ith, Rishadan Port, Thespian's Stage

Of the above decks, elves has the weakest interactions, but basically the needle hits a lot of cards. It also hits Sneak Attack, Grisselbrand and some other random stuff.

What decks does running needle main over chalice really hurt us against?

Storm - Weak targets for needle, you basically have to guess at fetch lands.
Reanimator - Won't actually stop them from going off like chalice does.
Burn - Chalice and Trinisphere kind of break burn, and it is really hard to keep something like metalworker against them.

There are other decks where the lack of 3sphere and chalice will cause problems, and as you can maybe deduce from the above list, it's pretty much the combo decks. Elves has good targets for needle, but chalice is where you want to be there, plus 3sphere, no doubt about it. Chalice is also good vs lands, but you want it at 2 anyways, so you can really improve your lands matchup because you can run both chalice AND needle side by side.

As for the other two slots, the considerations are either 2x Coercive Portal/Hedron Archive for more card drawing, which is helpful, or more lightning greaves, to help protect threats and combo faster. Since I play cavern of souls, one of the worst moves you can make is to tap out against a turn 1 greaves, it's just so dangerous. Voltaic key is another consideration for explosive ramping. I could also just leave the 3spheres in at 4, but that card is boarded out so often I am inclined to just trim it. Another option from the board is to add in removal (either clasp or dismember), so that I have the SB slots for chalice, which I do want as a 4x in my 75, just not main deck.

Ultimately, the philosophy behind this is to get away from the prison aspects of the deck, and instead just go deeper on making sure our threats resolve and our mana is stable, while also making sure that we are not playing 6-8 copies of cards whose value in most matchups drops precipitously when on the play. I am willing to sacrifice some points vs. storm, reanimator and burn to make them up against delver decks, which I feel are a bigger percentage of the field. Elves and DnT are a little interesting, but I think we get better vs. DnT and slightly worse against elves game 1.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this, its an idea that kind of goes against what this deck represents, but ultimately I think it is worth exploring non chalice options, even if it ultimately isn't maindeck needle.

Stuart
11-23-2015, 02:58 PM
I'd like to hear your thoughts on this, its an idea that kind of goes against what this deck represents, but ultimately I think it is worth exploring non chalice options, even if it ultimately isn't maindeck needle.

It's an interesting thought. I'm personally a little too smitten with Chalice to drop it, but if I were going to:

- I'd stick with 3-4 Trinisphere. Our prison capabilities are all we have in some matchups (as you've said, combo), so I think ditching both Chalice and Trinisphere is risky. Likewise, it's possible for us to prey on Delver decks' manabase via Wasteland etc, and if you go that route, Trinisphere is great.
- Maindeck Needle is a cool thought, but I'd personally go with extra Coercive Portals. If your no-Chalice plan is to outclass everyone else's threats, drawing extra mana/threats every turn is probably the way to go. Portal has been a beast for me lately, and I'd much prefer +1 card every turn to the one-time draw from Hedron Archive.
- If you're dropping Chalice, maybe it's time to splash red for Welder.
- Also, consider checking out the Italian Legends Mud build that came out recently. It went heavy on Thran Dynamo, Coercive Portal, etc so it could ramp into Ugin, Karn, Wurmcoil, and Eldrazi.

darkgh0st
11-23-2015, 03:11 PM
@Rikter: I partly agree with you on the Delver argument. Though, it can be solved many other ways. Having different sideboard options game 2 and 3 helps, one tactic when you are in the draw, and another when you're playing. I have 4 slots of Pithing needle in my SB as I do make the switch (-4 Chalice, +4 Needle) depending on the match-up (DnT on draw, ShardlessBUG, etc.).

I have learned my lesson before, not having Chalices, so I believe they should stay in, even when they can be a disadvantage 1st game. Chalice can shut down too many cards for it to be dropped. Those are my thoughts.

Silverflame
11-23-2015, 03:14 PM
I am not going to be running MUD this weekend in jersey, I am sticking with a retooled Miracles after a disastrous EE3. But I am planning on picking up MUD again, and I've been breweing.

Some of you may consider this heresy, but I am strongly considering cutting 4 maindeck chalice of the void, and dropping to 2 or 3 trinispheres (from 4).

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this, its an idea that kind of goes against what this deck represents, but ultimately I think it is worth exploring non chalice options, even if it ultimately isn't maindeck needle.

I'm also feeling that chalice is overappreciated at this point, because even with 4 MD, it doesn't warrant an auto win against combos as we doesn't always have it on play, and its value is dimnished against vial decks.
I was at 4 trini and will go down back to 3, the tempo gain is too useful against most decks and I hardly side out 4 of them.

What I propose is cutting 3 chalices, leaving one for mid game against the needed lock (1 for plowshares against white decks, 2 against lands, etc) we would need to speed up, so I'd put 2-3 voltaic keys for the also powerful turn 1 of sol + monolith + key + lodestone/trini/worker (or just keeping the monolith untapped for a t2 8 mana monster), that is harder to assemble, but is back breaking against more decks than a chalice for 1 is.
that setup would also reduce slightly those awkward games where we burn ourselves to defeat with tomb.
We could also use Copper Gnomes, but I'm trying to move away from more stifle targets.

Rikter
11-23-2015, 03:24 PM
It's an interesting thought. I'm personally a little too smitten with Chalice to drop it, but if I were going to:

- I'd stick with 3-4 Trinisphere. Our prison capabilities are all we have in some matchups (as you've said, combo), so I think ditching both Chalice and Trinisphere is risky. Likewise, it's possible for us to prey on Delver decks' manabase via Wasteland etc, and if you go that route, Trinisphere is great.
- Maindeck Needle is a cool thought, but I'd personally go with extra Coercive Portals. If your no-Chalice plan is to outclass everyone else's threats, drawing extra mana/threats every turn is probably the way to go. Portal has been a beast for me lately, and I'd much prefer +1 card every turn to the one-time draw from Hedron Archive.
- If you're dropping Chalice, maybe it's time to splash red for Welder.
- Also, consider checking out the Italian Legends Mud build that came out recently. It went heavy on Thran Dynamo, Coercive Portal, etc so it could ramp into Ugin, Karn, Wurmcoil, and Eldrazi.

Trinisphere is going to stay in the main to some extent, the problem I have with it is that it is generally pretty mediocre outside of the first few turns. I am pretty much never happy to see trinisphere in the late game, it's usually a poor top deck. It is in there more as a Forgemaster target than anything else. I think preying on the delver mana base via wasteland is a pointless endeavor. The deck runs fine on 2 mana; my couple of wastelands are really in there for the lands matchup more than anything.

My reason for the needles over portals (portal is still an option, just as a replacement for 1-2x trinisphere, not the 4x chalice) is that the biggest issue I have had with this deck lately is getting blown off of my cloudposts. Wasteland is such a threat, and the cards it prevent me from playing are so good, that I'd rather stop wasteland than cantrips and such. For whatever this is worth, if you are on your game, there is a ton of value in needling fetchlands as well, if you know which ones to call. Ultimately I think I would go with Portal over archive as you suggest because it doesn't need to activate and can't be stifled and it works every turn. Also, it stacks well and is good in all phases of the game.

Ive seen some lists with daretti (sp?) and welder, it's just not my thing, stylistically, and the mana base gets worse. I still want to be using metalworker, which means minimizing non artifact cards. It also makes Forgemaster worse as well, and I just like that card so I'm keeping it haha.

I saw that Euro list, it was interesting to say the least. The decision here comes down to whether you want to be workin' metal or not. I just like metalworker, so a list with that many non artifacts won't work for me.

Ultimately, I think that the combo decks are such a smaller percentage of the field, relative to the delver lists, that I am comfortable making a calculated risk, under the premise that whatever I give up against those decks can be made up in gains against delver lists.

Fry
11-23-2015, 04:29 PM
What am I proposing to fill the 6 slots with? (-4 chalice, -2+ trinisphere) Right now I am strongly considering running pithing needle main in place of the chalices. A summary of needle targets against the popular decks:

RUG Delver - Wasteland, Fetches
BUG Delver - Wasteland, Liliana, Jace
Death and Taxes - Wasteland, Port, Vial, Stoneforge Mystic, Jitte, Batterskull, SoFI, Managara, Karakas
Elves - Wirewood Symbiote, Deathrite Shaman, Quirion Ranger
Miracles - Jace the Mindsculptor, Sensei's Top
Lands - Wasteland, Maze of Ith, Rishadan Port, Thespian's Stage

Of the above decks, elves has the weakest interactions, but basically the needle hits a lot of cards. It also hits Sneak Attack, Grisselbrand and some other random stuff.


Needle also works on Heritage Druid.

Rikter
11-23-2015, 04:45 PM
Needle also works on Heritage Druid.

Druid is a mana ability, the needle doesn't hit it.

Silverflame
11-23-2015, 05:25 PM
This weekend I played Brazil's National Legacy tournament with 134 attendees. with dig banned, everyone was expecting a lot of Shardless and reanimators. Since last year's predictions didn't come through, I anticipated people to not play those decks and instead choose the ones that prey over them. The SB mistake I made was using batterskull instead of Torpor Orb, since by having a bye 2 I would avoid burn and other awkward matches.

List:
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Blightsteel Colossus
3 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Metalworker
1 Sundering Titan
4 Trinisphere
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Staff of Domination
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Grim Monolith
1 Crystal Vein
4 Glimmerpost
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Myr Battlesphere
4 Vesuva
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Lightning Greaves
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Spine of Ish Sah

SB: 4 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 Orbs of Warding
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Staff of Nin
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 1 Contagion Engine

I had bye 2 for the event so I try to rest a bit before the tournament.

Match 3 - Death and Taxes

Round 1
I play a glimmerpost and secound turn metalworker, he goes revoker to mw and starts to port me. I beat with metalworker and resolve a lodestone that beats once and later is traded against an avenger. He resolves a batterskull and with 2 ports, keeps tapping my cloudposts so I never get to 8 mana to cast my ugin and emperion.

0-1
+ needles, + staff of nin - trinis
I cast two chalices for 1 and 1 for two, thenb a metalworker, but my hand is empty. I start beating with the worker until he resolves a flickerwisp to remove the chalice for 2. then comes a qasali pridemage, that blows worker, serra avenger and batterskull hard cast.

0-2

Match 4 - Omniscience
Round 1
I keep a nice post hand to ramp for big robots. He cantrips 3 times and S&T omniscience and I trinisphere. He calls the judge to check the interaction and I have another turn, to cast a kuldotha. Next turn, he cunning wishes to remove the trini and I'm done.

0-1
-battlesphere, hellkite, ugins, + thorns,
I start with a t1 trinisphere that gets fowed. He cantrips, and combo soon after.
0-2
I'm at 2-2 already and very disappointed.

Match 5 - BUG Delver
The opponent is a legacy mvp that I faced on the last national tournament.


I keep a hand with tomb, vesuva, glimmer, kuldotha, sundering titan and monolith. Scry down a city.
I go tomb for monolith, he cantrips. I go kuldotha, he casts a drs. Since he plays blue, I don't activate kuldotha yet. Instead I resolve a trinsiphere and ugin, burning my life with tomb until I'm at 6. When he taps out , I kuldotha a sundering titan to destroy his 3 lands.
1-0
- blightsteel, -chalice +ratchet bomb
I keep tomb glimmer glimmer, cavern, batterskull, chalice.
I go tomb chalice, glimmer, cloudpost, batterskull and beat him to death.

2-0

Match 6 - Merfolks
Round 1
I keep a cavern, tomb, metalworker, chalice, staff + other stuff.
I go tomb chalice, He plays cursecatcher with cavern, t2 metalworker with cavern, t3 staff ftw.
1-0
-2 trini, -4 chalice, + 2 ratchet, +contagion, batterskull + orbs + staff.

I mull to 5, he counters my metalworker and keeps getting more lnrds and tnn. I resolve only mana rocks and die.

1-1
+1 chalice, +1 trini, -batterskull, -orbs

I try to ramp for ugin while being beaten by lords. I resolve a trini and trade my lodestone for a lord. He have multiple creatures on the tables. I resolve a hellkite that makes shor order of his creatures and ride it to victory.

4-2
Match 7 - D&T
Round 1
I mull to 6, and get a t2 lodestone, that beats once and is plowshared. He resolves a serra avenger, stonewforge and SoFI and I'm done quickly.

0-1
-4 trini, -sundering + batterskull, +staff, + 3 needle
i go glimmer and he wasted, i go glimmer he revokes worker. I cast a worker and trade with his revoker. Then i cast another worker and go funsies with staff.

-spine + contagion engine

1-1
I mull to 5, keep a tomb, glimmer, lodestone, kuldotha, kuldotha.
I try to ramp, but he have vial and keeps porting me, he gets a revoker on kuldotha and I start bashing him with multiple forgemasters. I cast and ugin that is revoked after clearing the board. He hits Ugin with batterskull and get it down to 1, until I get a wurmcoil online. He starts to throw creatures under the wheels and trade whatever he can, not having enough mana to equip SOFI and recur batterskull in the same turn. I contagion to free ugin once more. I go up to 61 life while he tries to find a cataclysm. Eventually I needle his batterskull and gets ugin to ultimate.
2-1

Match 8 - Elves
Round 1
I keep a fast hand with metalworker t1 and combo with staff before he can. I see a dryad and a quirion ranger, so I know it's elves.

1-0
-sundering titan, - spine, -battlesphere, +contagion, +needle
I keep a tomb, monolith to activate a kuldotha t4, with chalice on t2. Not fast enough. He combos t3.

1-1
I keep a 6 with tomb, chalice, lodestone, glimmer, glimmer, ugin.
Chalice on 1 on my side and he gets null rod. I cast 2 metalworkers and 3 kuldothas and keep swinging. Eventually I draw a contagion engine and get rid his board.

Match 9 - 4 Color Loam
My opponent just wants to make day 2 and proposes to Id since he was playing at my side for the last 3 tables and "I knew that he was playing Lands(he said loam but I hard lands". I didn't, but I wouldn't want to Id since it would make my chances on day 2 worse.

Round 1
I'm on the play, mull to 6 and get the perfect hand. I go T1 tomb + chalice for 0, chalice for 1. T2, city monolith kuldotha, T3 draw a greaves, fetch for blighsteel with chalice for 1 and greaves on the table.

-4 trini, -3 chalice, -1 sundering titan, +thorns, +needles, +tormods

1-0
I keep a 2 lander that is wasted twice, then he gets loam going then liliana. I notice he have a savannah and a plateau, so it's not lands. I scoop.

1-1
-emperion, -thorns + chalice + staff
I go needle to waste go. He fetches, I go lodestone and he casts mirri's guile. I beat once then he find s a plwoshares, then a sylvan library. I get another lodestone. He gets another plowshares, and I get a forgemaster that is eaten by liliana. Then another. Then another. They are needled, so he is beaten by kuldothas without casting anything relevant.

2-1

I end up 7-2 and go to the next day.


Day 2
Since a lot of people that where X-1-2 dropped, many X-3 end up making day 2. I'm 10th on the list. There would be 4 more matches, then the top 8.

Match 10 RUG delver
It's a friend of mine, but I was sleepy and didn't remember what he was playing. He on the other hand, knew.

Round 1
I mull to 5 and find a decent hand with tomb. I try to cast a few things that get dazed, fowed and eventually he casts a goyf and I stick a chalice for 1, then a trinisphere. I forget to trigger the chalice on a mongoose, and counters his tarfire and delver, that grows the goyf. I have a kuldotha, but only 3 artifacts and he have mana untapped for stifle. I have a metalworker in hand but only 2 mana. I'm beaten twice, so before his last turn I try to fetch and get stifled.

0-1
-battlesphere, - spine, -2 metalworker - 3 kuldotha, +2 bomb +2 needle, batterskull, +orbs + thorn
I go tomb chalice for 1. then cavern for golem, monolith, trying to ramp for platinum emperion. draw a hellkite and since I have 7 mana available, I cast it tapping all lands. My opponents asks if I have mana floating, hinting me that he have a daze. I beat twice, cast a metalworker that is countered, but since I only drew 1 glimmer, lots of tombs and vesuva, I'm at 7 life. I draw another glimmer that gets me to 9 life and 8 mana, having ugin and emperion in hand. My opponent is at 9, so I don't cast anything. then he triple bolts me.

0-2

I'm now x-3, i can still make top 8 If i don't lose anymore matches, and top 16 if I win 2 of 3. I just can't get any more weird matches.

Match 11 -Slivers
I have no experience against this deck. My post ramp hand is not fast enought against multiple +1/+1 slivers and my chalice is ignored by caverns. I'm smashed before I can do anything relevant.

0-1
-3 trini, -2 chalice + contagion, + batter, +bombs, +orbs of warding
I i go glimmer tomb metalworker that is fowed, i get orbs on the table that gives me time to take his flying-giver sliver out of the table, opening way for hellkite to wipe the board.

1-1
-chalice +trini

Mull to 5 I keep a tomb heavy hand again to ramp for ugin. He drops a lot of slivers, fows my kuldotha and gets a shroud-giver sliver from his quiver and a pay 2 to bounce, with vial on 2. I ugin, he bounces eveything, put them back with vial, puts multiple +1/+1 on the tables and kills ugin. I die soon after.
1-2

Match 12 - Elves
Round 1
I'm still dazed by the slivers, I mull to 6 for a post hand and forgot the scry. he glimpses T2, NO t3.

-titan. -spine, -battlesphere, -1 wurmcoil + engine + bombs + needle
0-1

I mull to 5 and forget the scry. I get a trinisphere online then a wurmcoil. I have engine in hand, but can't cast and proliferate on the same turn to take his DRs and 2 nettles. luckily I draw a metalworker, so I cast it and a ratchet bomb. I hit him with coil and go to 24. on his turn he casts visionary and NO. we both count damage. it adds to 23. he fetches a reclaimation sage and destroys ratchet bomb. I smile and next turn clear his board. he scoops.
1-1

I mull several times trying to find a hand that does something before turn 3, but they don't come. I mull to 4 to a non lander. coil, kuldotha, monolith, hellkite. I scry down an emperion. I'd need to draw a sol and maybe a chalice to have a chance. I don't and he kills me quickly.
1-2

Match 13 BUG Shardless
I have no more chance to top 16 so the pressure is gone.

Round 1
I keep a tomb hand for a quick trinisphere. I get a kuldotha and my opponent is hymn and cantripping, so when he taps out, I cast some pitch then fetch sundering titan, breaking his only 3 lands.

-3 trini, -2 chalice, - emperion + staff, +thorn, +batterskull
1-0

I keep a hand with metalworker, monolith, greaves, cavern, staff.
I scry and see a tomb. I cast tomb greaves, he wastes. I play cavern and don't see another land ever. he seizes metalworker and goyf me.

1-1
I keep a fast hand with chalice, lodestone, kuldotha, monolith, metalworker. I cast chalice on 1, gain some life, lodestone, trinisphere and swing. On his turn he drops his 3rd land and tries to seize, when I counter with chalice he scoops and show me his hand. He should have cast the goyf, to buy time to play liliana. I'd follow with thorn of amethyst and myr battlesphere next turn, so it wouldn't have mattered.
2-1

Sorry for the lack of details, but I was very tired, specially day 1. there was only one game that crystal vein was worse than city, because I had to blew it for a trinisphere. Since I lost that game, I'm going back to 4 cities.

L10
11-24-2015, 12:24 AM
Before and after the tournament, I jammed some Vintage. I played my Legacy Belcher vs TPS and Shops, respectively. The matchups were close or even slightly in my favor, so I think I'm gonna toss some Moxen etc into Belcher and make it my Vintage deck
Play Mono-Blue Belcher and win on their upkeep when they are on play.


I am not going to be running MUD this weekend in jersey, I am sticking with a retooled Miracles after a disastrous EE3. But I am planning on picking up MUD again, and I've been breweing.
Due to peer pressure from fellow Stormtroopers, I will also be playing at Jersey, despite my Magic hibernation. There is a 95% chance of me playing ANT. There is also a 5% chance of me playing Artificer's Intuition or Scourge of Nel Toth Dredge featuring Bladewing's Thrall (Q: How is this better than LED Dredge? A: Dragons.)
If any of you all want to meet up, send me a PM.


...Voltaic key...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4HJ0zfZ-EM


Another option from the board is to add in removal (either clasp or dismember)
I like Dismember in Vintage, but not in Legacy MUD. I have tried Clasp multiple times and do not like it. I'd rather play Maze of Ith, Caltrops, Jitte, Trike, or Razormane Masticore. Maze of Ith was an all-star for me at GP Seattle.


Ultimately, the philosophy behind this is to get away from the prison aspects of the deck
How about a more combo oriented MUD list?
List and SB Strat: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1j8ZJwhDk6KEATYQ9sj3yF2lsLakFCXZLCbF1myoc-A4
GP Seattle report: https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/3sdoem/gp_seattle_report_turbomud/
We can jam some sessions too. All MUD players welcome.

@Silverflame, great report! You did well!

Rikter
11-24-2015, 09:50 AM
Play Mono-Blue Belcher and win on their upkeep when they are on play.


Due to peer pressure from fellow Stormtroopers, I will also be playing at Jersey, despite my Magic hibernation. There is a 95% chance of me playing ANT. There is also a 5% chance of me playing Artificer's Intuition or Scourge of Nel Toth Dredge featuring Bladewing's Thrall (Q: How is this better than LED Dredge? A: Dragons.)
If any of you all want to meet up, send me a PM.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4HJ0zfZ-EM


I like Dismember in Vintage, but not in Legacy MUD. I have tried Clasp multiple times and do not like it. I'd rather play Maze of Ith, Caltrops, Jitte, Trike, or Razormane Masticore. Maze of Ith was an all-star for me at GP Seattle.


How about a more combo oriented MUD list?
List and SB Strat: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1j8ZJwhDk6KEATYQ9sj3yF2lsLakFCXZLCbF1myoc-A4
GP Seattle report: https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/3sdoem/gp_seattle_report_turbomud/
We can jam some sessions too. All MUD players welcome.

@Silverflame, great report! You did well!


Dismember I think is a bit better in Vintage because of less lightning bolts; I like it in Legacy too though, particularly against swords lists. Clasp can be hit or miss; I think if you play a lot of infect, death and taxes and goblins you will come to appreciate the power of clasp.

I'd be interested in meeting up with folks at Jersey. I won't have my MUD list with me, I travel with the bear minimum at these things, but I'm happy to put faces to names and talk some robots!

Also, silverflame, that is a great report.

Titaniumfrost
11-26-2015, 07:39 PM
Has anybody tried Uba Mask as a one-of in the sideboard? I'm contemplating playing one as it seems like it could be good vs brainstorm decks, storm and miracles. Dunno if it's worth cutting anything from the board, though. For reference, here's my current sideboard (somewhat based on the local meta):

1x All is Dust
1x Duplicant
2x Revoker
2x Pithing Needle
2x Ratchet bomb
1x Spine of ish sah
1x Surgical Extraction
3x Thorn of amethyst
2x Tormod's crypt

I'd probably cut a thorn for it, as it's more versatile and there's not much infect and storm at my local shop.

Rikter
11-26-2015, 10:19 PM
Has anybody tried Uba Mask as a one-of in the sideboard? I'm contemplating playing one as it seems like it could be good vs brainstorm decks, storm and miracles. Dunno if it's worth cutting anything from the board, though. For reference, here's my current sideboard (somewhat based on the local meta):

1x All is Dust
1x Duplicant
2x Revoker
2x Pithing Needle
2x Ratchet bomb
1x Spine of ish sah
1x Surgical Extraction
3x Thorn of amethyst
2x Tormod's crypt

I'd probably cut a thorn for it, as it's more versatile and there's not much infect and storm at my local shop.


Ive tried the uba mask, as a piece of hate for miracles. I cut it because our matchup vs them is good enough. The card itself is fine, but for me a 1 of needs to be something I would grab with forgemaster, and that would never be the case against brainstorm decks in general, and really corner case vs miracles, the deck it is taylor made to beat, so it had to go.

Silverflame
12-01-2015, 12:15 PM
I gonna start testing two cards I think could lead to interesting builds.
mirrorworks & scarecrone
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=241569&type=card http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=182060&type=card
I always think about including a scarecrone in my deck, but I chicken out in the day of the tournaments.
They may work in the same build as in the worst case it's a very slow draw engine (cast crone, clone it, sac the original, ress it back and clone again), but cloning a coercive portal may already be devastating in the long run. Probably a looting shell works better, so I"ll put my Darettis to work after drafting some post versions.

sun tzu
12-01-2015, 10:09 PM
I gonna start testing two cards I think could lead to interesting builds.
mirrorworks & scarecrone
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=241569&type=card http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=182060&type=card
I always think about including a scarecrone in my deck, but I chicken out in the day of the tournaments.
They may work in the same build as in the worst case it's a very slow draw engine (cast crone, clone it, sac the original, ress it back and clone again), but cloning a coercive portal may already be devastating in the long run. Probably a looting shell works better, so I"ll put my Darettis to work after drafting some post versions.
Mirrorworks seems like a trap. At 5 mana it does nothing. Its good when it gets going, but to copy most things that are worthwhile, it will be quite expensive. This card also sets you up to be more vulnerable to countermagic because your artifact has to resolve first.

BlackHawkX9
12-02-2015, 01:28 PM
Has anybody tried Uba Mask as a one-of in the sideboard? I'm contemplating playing one as it seems like it could be good vs brainstorm decks, storm and miracles. Dunno if it's worth cutting anything from the board, though. For reference, here's my current sideboard (somewhat based on the local meta):

1x All is Dust
1x Duplicant
2x Revoker
2x Pithing Needle
2x Ratchet bomb
1x Spine of ish sah
1x Surgical Extraction
3x Thorn of amethyst
2x Tormod's crypt

I'd probably cut a thorn for it, as it's more versatile and there's not much infect and storm at my local shop.

Honestly, your sideboard looks alot like mine. The only thing I ask is, why all is dust? Ugin has become strictly better than all is dust will ever be.

Also, what threat do we have now that duplicant is needed on top of spines?

MGB
12-02-2015, 02:40 PM
Has anyone else been testing Legend MUD at all?

It might just be the best MUD deck possible in Legacy at the moment. It crushes all the fair matchups better than traditional MUD does, and it doesn't lose too much vs the unfair stuff, and in fact is better against some of the unfair Reanimator/Sneak'n'Show stuff because of 3 Karakas MD.

Stuart
12-02-2015, 02:46 PM
Has anyone else been testing Legend MUD at all?

It might just be the best MUD deck possible in Legacy at the moment. It crushes all the fair matchups better than traditional MUD does, and it doesn't lose too much vs the unfair stuff, and in fact is better against some of the unfair Reanimator/Sneak'n'Show stuff because of 3 Karakas MD.

I have not tested it, but I'm interested. However, I'm also considering just taking a page out of its playbook and trying out 3x Coercive Portal maindeck. Seems like a really strong engine.

darkgh0st
12-02-2015, 08:21 PM
Has anyone else been testing Legend MUD at all?

It might just be the best MUD deck possible in Legacy at the moment. It crushes all the fair matchups better than traditional MUD does, and it doesn't lose too much vs the unfair stuff, and in fact is better against some of the unfair Reanimator/Sneak'n'Show stuff because of 3 Karakas MD.

I tested for a little while and know that it is strong. Two things that I didn't like about are Vesuva and Karakas, or even double Karakas openers. And the other one being I don't own any Karakas and don't intend to get them anytime soon.

I'm currently working on MUD stompy (Zirath's list 1st page) as it has been on my list quite a while back.

sun tzu
12-02-2015, 10:15 PM
Has anyone else been testing Legend MUD at all?

It might just be the best MUD deck possible in Legacy at the moment. It crushes all the fair matchups better than traditional MUD does, and it doesn't lose too much vs the unfair stuff, and in fact is better against some of the unfair Reanimator/Sneak'n'Show stuff because of 3 Karakas MD.is there a link to a decklist you could give? :D

Badwise
12-02-2015, 10:39 PM
It was asked earlier in this thread but was ultimately ignored: What do you all think of Sandstone Oracle? I just saw it again and realized that it could be incredible in MUD. I am usually on a fairly empty hand, so I see this as being an easy way to pay 7 mana for 5-7 cards with a body left over. I'm testing it currently as a two of.

darkgh0st
12-02-2015, 10:56 PM
It was asked earlier in this thread but was ultimately ignored: What do you all think of Sandstone Oracle? I just saw it again and realized that it could be incredible in MUD. I am usually on a fairly empty hand, so I see this as being an easy way to pay 7 mana for 5-7 cards with a body left over. I'm testing it currently as a two of.

For thoughts:
- Sphinx doesn't ride well with the deck's current creature types if you are dependent on Cavern.
- Currently used card drawing engines come in at least a turn earlier in forms of Staff of Nin and Coercive Portal, which just gets better on the long run. One time use Oracle, which nets an unpredictable amount of cards is what you are trading those for. If you run Oracle with Staff or Portal, chances are you don't need Oracle.
- Looks really good the sooner you can empty your hand, while having your opponent at lots still, probably on a Welder and/or Daretti shell. Then again you'd probably want to drop threats instead of drawing cards.

Badwise
12-02-2015, 11:33 PM
For thoughts:
- Sphinx doesn't ride well with the deck's current creature types if you are dependent on Cavern.
- Currently used card drawing engines come in at least a turn earlier in forms of Staff of Nin and Coercive Portal, which just gets better on the long run. One time use Oracle, which nets an unpredictable amount of cards is what you are trading those for. If you run Oracle with Staff or Portal, chances are you don't need Oracle.
- Looks really good the sooner you can empty your hand, while having your opponent at lots still, probably on a Welder and/or Daretti shell. Then again you'd probably want to drop threats instead of drawing cards.

I ran 3-4 games with the sphinx and found that more than often it would net me one to three cards, feeling each time like I'd rather be dropping a power creature. I don't think I'll revisit it.

MGB
12-03-2015, 04:48 PM
is there a link to a decklist you could give? :D

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18619&iddeck=141089



Creatures [5]
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Wurmcoil Engine

Planeswalkers [6]
3 Karn Liberated
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Artifacts [27]
1 Staff of Nin
2 Hedron Archive
2 Voltaic Key
3 Thran Dynamo
3 Trinisphere
4 Basalt Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Coercive Portal
4 Grim Monolith

Lands [22]
3 Karakas
3 Vesuva
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost

Sideboard [15]
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 All Is Dust
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Trinisphere
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Trading Post
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger


The idea behind this list is essentially: blank opponents' creature removal MD, and instead of using Forgemaster, Lodestone, and Metalworker to use creature-based methods of powering your end-game, use more redundant artifact mana acceleration in the form of Thran Dynamo, Basalt Monolith, and Hedron Archive to ramp into Ulamog, Wurmcoil, Ugin, and Karn. It also uses the 4 Portals to act as a draw engine for a more controllish game-plan.

Essentially it trades a little bit of explosiveness for a more resilient game against all the fair decks. Very few decks have good ways to interact with Basalt Monolith and Thran Dynamo MD. And against unfair decks such as Storm and Elves, you lean heavily on Chalice and Trinisphere and then board into the full anti-combo plan for G2 and G3.

darkgh0st
12-03-2015, 09:44 PM
Ulamog is such a beast in Legends MUD. Even he is countered, he takes threats you can target, which nets you around 4-for-1. Even when Forced and Stifled, he's still a 3-for-1. And when he does resolve, non-white decks struggle to remove him.

Stuart
12-04-2015, 11:30 AM
So as of last night I'm on a losing streak. Since 11/19 I've gone 2-2, 2-2, 1-2, and 1-2. I think part of it is mental, and part of it is people adjusting to having MUD regularly in their meta.

However, I'm wondering if I just need to play through it, or if there's some adjustments I should make. This is a big request, but can anyone offer insight into changes I should be making to my list or behavior? Below is my list, and linked is a breakdown of my meta and record since picking up MUD.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oN6F-i4xNyofkIrnhW-DZy4yKj4CAu-Aq7lDTyj8lvI/edit#gid=0&vpid=A1

Creatures
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone
4 Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil
1 Emperion
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel
2 Ugin

Artifacts
4 Monolith
4 Chalice
3 Trinisphere
2 Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
1 Coercive Portal
1 Staff of Nin
1 Spine

Land
4 Wasteland
4 Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
2 Cavern
1 Urborg

Sideboard
1 Platinum Angel
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Contagion Engine
1 Coercive Portal
1 Trinisphere
2 Crucible
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt

My ideas so far:
- I've considered -1 Forgemaster, +1 Wurmcoil.
- I've thought about going to 2 or 3 maindeck Coercive Portal. As seems to be happening everywhere, my meta feels like it's losing combo and getting grindier.
- Ancient Tomb has been shocking the shit out of me lately. I generally don't love the idea of dropping any, but would a 3/3 split of Tomb and City make sense?
- I feel like I've been drawing a lot of bad openers, and that generally prison hands have been playing best for me. Is there anything I can do to improve my openers or promote prison hands?
- Austin is a good MtG scene, but still, at this point everyone knows what everyone else is on. We have a 1K coming up in 2 weeks that I'm hoping attracts some out-of-towners, so I can regain some element of surprise. Unfortunately, there don't seem to be any other big TX Legacy events in the near future . . .

Bobmans
12-04-2015, 11:45 AM
So as of last night I'm on a losing streak. Since 11/19 I've gone 2-2, 2-2, 1-2, and 1-2. I think part of it is mental, and part of it is people adjusting to having MUD regularly in their meta.

However, I'm wondering if I just need to play through it, or if there's some adjustments I should make. This is a big request, but can anyone offer insight into changes I should be making to my list or behavior?

MUD can have times it feels like you roll your dice but never roll that 6. From personal experience i have my best MUD performances right after i pick it up after a break of playing other decks. It might force me to think at momens and als just yolo at other moment. Somehow, i have always have that same drop of performance your experiencing now. Either play trough it or (as me) play something else for a while. There is also a danger in trying to continuesly adjust and tweak you deck. At some point you might realise your stuck and cant really backtrack the changes that affected this. The best thing to do is to swap back to the list when you hadost succes and continue again from there.


Edit: i do not really believe that choosing to play coercive or not or 1 wurmcoil for 1 forgemaster affects the performance of the deck. Those are just nuances and "feel-of-play" rather then making the deck actually better. It can cloud you.

Rikter
12-04-2015, 12:37 PM
So as of last night I'm on a losing streak. Since 11/19 I've gone 2-2, 2-2, 1-2, and 1-2. I think part of it is mental, and part of it is people adjusting to having MUD regularly in their meta.

However, I'm wondering if I just need to play through it, or if there's some adjustments I should make. This is a big request, but can anyone offer insight into changes I should be making to my list or behavior? Below is my list, and linked is a breakdown of my meta and record since picking up MUD.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oN6F-i4xNyofkIrnhW-DZy4yKj4CAu-Aq7lDTyj8lvI/edit#gid=0&vpid=A1

Creatures
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone
4 Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil
1 Emperion
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel
2 Ugin

Artifacts
4 Monolith
4 Chalice
3 Trinisphere
2 Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
1 Coercive Portal
1 Staff of Nin
1 Spine

Land
4 Wasteland
4 Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
2 Cavern
1 Urborg

Sideboard
1 Platinum Angel
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Contagion Engine
1 Coercive Portal
1 Trinisphere
2 Crucible
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt

My ideas so far:
- I've considered -1 Forgemaster, +1 Wurmcoil.
- I've thought about going to 2 or 3 maindeck Coercive Portal. As seems to be happening everywhere, my meta feels like it's losing combo and getting grindier.
- Ancient Tomb has been shocking the shit out of me lately. I generally don't love the idea of dropping any, but would a 3/3 split of Tomb and City make sense?
- I feel like I've been drawing a lot of bad openers, and that generally prison hands have been playing best for me. Is there anything I can do to improve my openers or promote prison hands?
- Austin is a good MtG scene, but still, at this point everyone knows what everyone else is on. We have a 1K coming up in 2 weeks that I'm hoping attracts some out-of-towners, so I can regain some element of surprise. Unfortunately, there don't seem to be any other big TX Legacy events in the near future . . .


I am back on MUD for the time being, but I am off Forgemaster and Chalice. Forgemaster just seems terrible in an environment where 4x stifle is increasingly common, and big mana MUD is also not fantastic when the popular delver lists are on 4x Wasteland. Even chalice I have basically just moved on from in the main.

The other deciding factor to move on from big targets is the fact that a 6 mana wurmcoil engine does just as good a job as an 8 mana beater, so why bother overkilling? And the 6 mana wurmcoil is much easier to cast. I have dramatically altered my deck, hopefully I have some results with it and I will post everything, but basically I have brought my curve down significantly.

Ultimately, Forgemaster MUD was a great deck when RB Cruise delver was on the scene and you could reliably build up your mana base. Those days are gone, and people have adapted. I wouldn't even say that they have adapted to our deck, as MUD is such a small percentage of the field that I would never in a million years advise anyone to waste time or SB slots on it, but as long as miracles is a thing people will have splash hate that applies to us.

Fry
12-04-2015, 02:46 PM
Stuart, I really like having a 2-1 Greaves and Thousand-Year Elixir split because it allows you to immediately use the Metalworker or Forgemaster abilities without waiting for an equip resolution, and it untaps to reuse Metalworkers, I love the card and have since I took the 3rd Greaves out for it. Also I really like the idea of having at least 3 Cavern of Souls to help resolve the Metalworkers/Forgemasters with Construct, and Emperion/Titan/Blightsteel on Golem. I also play a quite different list than you do that I played in the Jelly Jam


4x Daretti, Scrap Savant
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Grim Monolith
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
2x Lightning Greaves
4x Metalworker
1x Mindslaver
1x Myr Battlesphere
1x Platinum Emperion
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Staff of Domination
1x Sundering Titan
1x Thousand-Year Elixir
4x Trinisphere
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1x Wurmcoil Engine
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
4x City of Traitors
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Great Furnace
3x Mountain
Side: 15
3x Whipflare
1x Blightsteel Colossus
2x Defense Grid
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Platinum Angel
2x Spellskite
1x Steel Hellkite
2x Sundering Titan
1x Wurmcoil Engine


just switched the 3rd Whipflare in the board for a 2nd Bridge

But even with the different lists I still would love to see you put in an Elixir and a 3rd Cavern. I love Staff of Nin, but it can be a little slow to come out, so I've actually cut it from my list quite some time ago, but do think of adding it or Portal to my list somewhere.

MGB
12-04-2015, 03:20 PM
I am back on MUD for the time being, but I am off Forgemaster and Chalice. Forgemaster just seems terrible in an environment where 4x stifle is increasingly common, and big mana MUD is also not fantastic when the popular delver lists are on 4x Wasteland. Even chalice I have basically just moved on from in the main.

The other deciding factor to move on from big targets is the fact that a 6 mana wurmcoil engine does just as good a job as an 8 mana beater, so why bother overkilling? And the 6 mana wurmcoil is much easier to cast. I have dramatically altered my deck, hopefully I have some results with it and I will post everything, but basically I have brought my curve down significantly.

Ultimately, Forgemaster MUD was a great deck when RB Cruise delver was on the scene and you could reliably build up your mana base. Those days are gone, and people have adapted. I wouldn't even say that they have adapted to our deck, as MUD is such a small percentage of the field that I would never in a million years advise anyone to waste time or SB slots on it, but as long as miracles is a thing people will have splash hate that applies to us.

That is absolutely insane. Forgemaster and Chalice are probably the two best cards in the deck!

How many decks actually run stifle MD? RUG Delver and some Grixis Delver decks. That's basically it, and you still have the potential to Chalice @ 1 them out. I think you're overreacting to a few bad beats when you may have gotten Stifled and it felt so bad. Just because maybe 5-10% of the time Forgemaster is bad in that way, it shouldn't discount the roughly 90-95% of times it is amazing in finding you the exact silver bullet or back-breaking finisher that you needed to win that game.

And cutting Chalice is crazy. Chalice of the Void almost single-handedly won SCG NJ and is the basically the one of the few reasons you would want to play a non-blue deck in Legacy to begin with.

MGB
12-04-2015, 03:26 PM
So as of last night I'm on a losing streak. Since 11/19 I've gone 2-2, 2-2, 1-2, and 1-2. I think part of it is mental, and part of it is people adjusting to having MUD regularly in their meta.

However, I'm wondering if I just need to play through it, or if there's some adjustments I should make. This is a big request, but can anyone offer insight into changes I should be making to my list or behavior? Below is my list, and linked is a breakdown of my meta and record since picking up MUD.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oN6F-i4xNyofkIrnhW-DZy4yKj4CAu-Aq7lDTyj8lvI/edit#gid=0&vpid=A1

Creatures
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone
4 Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil
1 Emperion
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel
2 Ugin

Artifacts
4 Monolith
4 Chalice
3 Trinisphere
2 Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
1 Coercive Portal
1 Staff of Nin
1 Spine

Land
4 Wasteland
4 Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
2 Cavern
1 Urborg

Sideboard
1 Platinum Angel
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Contagion Engine
1 Coercive Portal
1 Trinisphere
2 Crucible
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt

My ideas so far:
- I've considered -1 Forgemaster, +1 Wurmcoil.
- I've thought about going to 2 or 3 maindeck Coercive Portal. As seems to be happening everywhere, my meta feels like it's losing combo and getting grindier.
- Ancient Tomb has been shocking the shit out of me lately. I generally don't love the idea of dropping any, but would a 3/3 split of Tomb and City make sense?
- I feel like I've been drawing a lot of bad openers, and that generally prison hands have been playing best for me. Is there anything I can do to improve my openers or promote prison hands?
- Austin is a good MtG scene, but still, at this point everyone knows what everyone else is on. We have a 1K coming up in 2 weeks that I'm hoping attracts some out-of-towners, so I can regain some element of surprise. Unfortunately, there don't seem to be any other big TX Legacy events in the near future . . .

One of the big problems in your decklist is your manabase.

Always play 4 Tomb and 4 City. Yes, having multiple City sucks sometimes but it's the price you need to pay for explosive mana. You absolutely *must* be able to power out Chalice @ 1 as early as possible, and stuff like Monolith as early as possible as well. You simply have to have 4 of each in every successful MUD deck.

I don't like Urborg at all. I understand you're trying to mitigate lifeloss, but the number of times it saves you because it stops you from shocking yourself with Tomb is outweighed by the number of times it's worse than a Darksteel Citadel.

I don't like Wasteland in MUD. Some people want to play Wasteland to further the Trinisphere / Lodestone mana denial plan, but in my experience, this deck just wants to generate as much mana as possible and saccing your lands to kill opponent's lands interferes with that end goal. Wasteland is a little bit counter-productive to this deck's strategy.

I would play 4 City / 4 Tomb / 4 Cloudpost / 4 Glimmerpost / 4 Vesuva and then some combination of Mishra's Factory and/or Cavern of Souls to round out the 24.

Rikter
12-04-2015, 03:58 PM
That is absolutely insane. Forgemaster and Chalice are probably the two best cards in the deck!

How many decks actually run stifle MD? RUG Delver and some Grixis Delver decks. That's basically it, and you still have the potential to Chalice @ 1 them out. I think you're overreacting to a few bad beats when you may have gotten Stifled and it felt so bad. Just because maybe 5-10% of the time Forgemaster is bad in that way, it shouldn't discount the roughly 90-95% of times it is amazing in finding you the exact silver bullet or back-breaking finisher that you needed to win that game.

And cutting Chalice is crazy. Chalice of the Void almost single-handedly won SCG NJ and is the basically the one of the few reasons you would want to play a non-blue deck in Legacy to begin with.

Per mtgtop8, wasteland is currently present in half the field. Thats the real backbreaker, more so than stifle. Playing a big mana deck in a wasteland heavy meta is asking for trouble, because a massive share of big mana MUD's value came from being able to reliably hard cast the threats should it be an issue.

Stifle is less of an issue (12% of decks run it), it's easier to play around, but the last 20k had half the final 24 or so on miracles. Stifle is a card I see more and more of when I go to these events, and it only has more value as miracles posts such strong results.

Im just off chalice, it isn't that big a deal to me. Against the non-combo decks I really don't care how much they ponder and brainstorm, because as long as I can resolve wurmcoil engine I am fine. That card is better than just about every single card in their deck, and is also a big part of the reason to get rid of forgemaster: the silver bullet cards are such overkill. I have chalice in the 75, for combo matchups where it matters more, but for the fair decks I see no need to bother with it. If the best you can do is drop a Gurmag angler, I don't really care about locking you out, I just want to focus on resolving my superior cards, and chalice does not help with that. Why spend time locking out a bunch of crap that isn't really a problem anyways, right?

Time will tell, but I think it is a mistake to look at chalice and forgemaster as these un-cuttable cards.

Stuart
12-04-2015, 05:06 PM
Thanks guys - appreciate your support in these dark times :laugh:


MUD can have times it feels like you roll your dice but never roll that 6. From personal experience i have my best MUD performances right after i pick it up after a break of playing other decks. It might force me to think at momens and als just yolo at other moment. Somehow, i have always have that same drop of performance your experiencing now. Either play trough it or (as me) play something else for a while. There is also a danger in trying to continuesly adjust and tweak you deck. At some point you might realise your stuck and cant really backtrack the changes that affected this. The best thing to do is to swap back to the list when you hadost succes and continue again from there.

Ultimately I have a feeling this is the most important piece of advice. I need to just give MUD (and myself) some breathing room for a little while.

My list hasn't really changed much since I started; I think I dropped a Hellkite for Emperion, a 3rd Cavern for a 2nd City, and a Vesuva for an Urborg. Still, I was doing better then, so maybe I should go back . . .


I am back on MUD for the time being, but I am off Forgemaster and Chalice. Forgemaster just seems terrible in an environment where 4x stifle is increasingly common, and big mana MUD is also not fantastic when the popular delver lists are on 4x Wasteland. Even chalice I have basically just moved on from in the main.

The other deciding factor to move on from big targets is the fact that a 6 mana wurmcoil engine does just as good a job as an 8 mana beater, so why bother overkilling? And the 6 mana wurmcoil is much easier to cast. I have dramatically altered my deck, hopefully I have some results with it and I will post everything, but basically I have brought my curve down significantly.

Ultimately, Forgemaster MUD was a great deck when RB Cruise delver was on the scene and you could reliably build up your mana base. Those days are gone, and people have adapted. I wouldn't even say that they have adapted to our deck, as MUD is such a small percentage of the field that I would never in a million years advise anyone to waste time or SB slots on it, but as long as miracles is a thing people will have splash hate that applies to us.

As MBD suggested, dropping Forgemaster and Chalice is just too tough for me to swallow. That said, I have been running into more instances of people dropping threats (Vial, Delver, etc) turn 1 before I get in a Chalice, so maybe I need more of a gameplan for reacting to those plays.

And yeah, I might add another Wurmcoil. 6 mana is pretty easy, and Wurmcoil is soooo good in so many situations. I've been approaching my fatties from the toolbox/swiss army knife perspective, and maybe I should instead streamline them.



But even with the different lists I still would love to see you put in an Elixir and a 3rd Cavern. I love Staff of Nin, but it can be a little slow to come out, so I've actually cut it from my list quite some time ago, but do think of adding it or Portal to my list somewhere.

Cheers Fry! I'm hesitant to add a 3rd Cavern; I was running 3 when I started MUD, but just had too many games of getting flooded with Caverns. However, I do really like the look of Thousand-Year Elixir. I love Staff of Nin, but you're right that it's slow. If I cut 1 Staff of Nin and 1 Spine for 1 Coercive Portal and 1 Elixir, that could go some ways in speeding everything up.


One of the big problems in your decklist is your manabase.

Always play 4 Tomb and 4 City. Yes, having multiple City sucks sometimes but it's the price you need to pay for explosive mana. You absolutely *must* be able to power out Chalice @ 1 as early as possible, and stuff like Monolith as early as possible as well. You simply have to have 4 of each in every successful MUD deck.

I don't like Urborg at all. I understand you're trying to mitigate lifeloss, but the number of times it saves you because it stops you from shocking yourself with Tomb is outweighed by the number of times it's worse than a Darksteel Citadel.

I don't like Wasteland in MUD. Some people want to play Wasteland to further the Trinisphere / Lodestone mana denial plan, but in my experience, this deck just wants to generate as much mana as possible and saccing your lands to kill opponent's lands interferes with that end goal. Wasteland is a little bit counter-productive to this deck's strategy.

I would play 4 City / 4 Tomb / 4 Cloudpost / 4 Glimmerpost / 4 Vesuva and then some combination of Mishra's Factory and/or Cavern of Souls to round out the 24.

Our manabase is interesting. I'm pretty firmly in the "I Love Wasteland" camp, but I haven't tried playing without it, either.

When I started on MUD I was running 4 Vesuva and have since cut to 3 after getting flooded with Vesuvas one too many times. Given that, I don't think I want to go back up to 4. However, you might be right about City (especially since I've been getting Tombed so hard lately; increasing my sol land options seems smart).

darkgh0st
12-04-2015, 07:02 PM
It really helps when you take time away from the deck you always play. I have started Modern recently, with the aim not to play anything close to MUD in the format (Tron). I've had one too many times where I over-react and change my deck completely only to get smacked around by another deck then. Though I have to say, from all the MUD variants I tried, the generic MUD look right now is the most consistent.

Stuart
12-05-2015, 10:59 PM
It really helps when you take time away from the deck you always play. I have started Modern recently, with the aim not to play anything close to MUD in the format (Tron). I've had one too many times where I over-react and change my deck completely only to get smacked around by another deck then. Though I have to say, from all the MUD variants I tried, the generic MUD look right now is the most consistent.

I agree. My in-laws are in town for the next week, so I'm kinda on a forced break from MtG anyway. I'm thinking I'll just goldfish solid opening hands for the next 2 weeks so I go into the 1K with a clear head. I'm also building Enchantress, so I'll start off 2016 with a break from MUD. We'll see.

Thanks again for the tips, everyone!

Airwave
12-07-2015, 04:27 AM
It really helps when you take time away from the deck you always play. I have started Modern recently, with the aim not to play anything close to MUD in the format (Tron). I've had one too many times where I over-react and change my deck completely only to get smacked around by another deck then. Though I have to say, from all the MUD variants I tried, the generic MUD look right now is the most consistent.

I have the same experience and also started to play Tron recently. Next to that, it broke out a White Stax list for a change. It's always nice to try something else for a change. Also to keep "unpredictable" in the meta :wink:

Nevertheless, MUD is my number 1 deck. Period. I'm for sure starting 2016 with it again.

I'm thinking about retrying my "old" list since it worked pretty well before all this delve shit happened :cool:


3x Goblin Welder
4x Metalworker
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
4x Stoneforge Mystic

1x Blightsteel Colossus
1x Platinum Angel
3x Wurmcoil Engine

1x Daretti, Scrap Savant

1x Staff of Domination
1x Thousand-year Elixir
1x Spine of Ish Sah

1x Umbral Mantle
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull
1x Lightning Greaves

4x Chalice of the Void

4x Grim Monolith
1x Mox Diamond
2x Mox Opal


4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Great Furnace
1x Plateau
4x Ancient Den
4x Cavern of Souls

Sideboard

1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Rest in Peace
4x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Trading Post
1x Platinum Emperion
1x Sundering Titan
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Thorn of Amethyst

Bobmans
12-07-2015, 04:41 AM
I have the same experience and also started to play Tron recently. Next to that, it broke out a White Stax list for a change. It's always nice to try something else for a change. Also to keep "unpredictable" in the meta :wink:

Nevertheless, MUD is my number 1 deck. Period. I'm for sure starting 2016 with it again.

I'm thinking about retrying my "old" list since it worked pretty well before all this delve shit happened :cool:


3xGoblin Welder
4xMetalworker
4xKuldotha Forgemaster
4xStoneforge Mystic

1xBlightsteel Colossus
1xPlatinum Angel
3xWurmcoil Engine

1xDaretti, Scrap Savant

1xStaff of Domination
1xThousand-year Elixir
1xSpine of Ish Sah

1xUmbral Mantle
1xUmezawa's Jitte
1xBatterskull
1xLightning Greaves

4xChalice of the Void

4xGrim Monolith
1xMox Diamond
2xMox Opal


4xAncient Tomb
4xCity of Traitors
4xGreat Furnace
1xPlateau
4xAncient Den
4xCavern of Souls

Sideboard

1xTormod's Crypt
2xRest in Peace
4xPhyrexian Revoker
2xRatchet Bomb
1xEthersworn Canonist
1xTrading Post
1xPlatinum Emperion
1xSundering Titan
1xCrucible of Worlds
1xThorn of Amethyst

Wow, 2 colours in a mudlist. How was that working out?
Wouldnt you achieve something similar with running Godo and stick to 1 color?

Airwave
12-07-2015, 11:06 AM
Wow, 2 colours in a mudlist. How was that working out?
Wouldnt you achieve something similar with running Godo and stick to 1 color?

It's not that hard actually. You just have to make sure to call "Artificer" on your Cavern of Souls. That way you play 5 Plateaus and next to that 3 moxen... so I'm actually hardly ever color-screwed.

darkgh0st
12-07-2015, 02:20 PM
The newly spoiled Mystic Gate Expedition gives us more of what the new Kozilek mana cost actually means.

Silverflame
12-07-2015, 04:18 PM
I'm thinking about retrying my "old" list since it worked pretty well before all this delve shit happened :cool:

[/cards]

That list sounds like loads of fun, pulling a kill with a goblin, 2 monoliths and an umbral mantle might be the most unexpected mud play so far.

Airwave
12-08-2015, 03:08 AM
That list sounds like loads of fun, pulling a kill with a goblin, 2 monoliths and an umbral mantle might be the most unexpected mud play so far.

I never managed to pull that off unfortunately... sounds like a lot of fun.

What happened a lot though: Turn 1 Grim Monolith, Metalworker, Turn 2 Stoneforge, search Umbral, equip, hit for 1.000.000.000 damage.... the look on their face is priceless :laugh:

darkgh0st
12-08-2015, 11:51 PM
I never managed to pull that off unfortunately... sounds like a lot of fun.

What happened a lot though: Turn 1 Grim Monolith, Metalworker, Turn 2 Stoneforge, search Umbral, equip, hit for 1.000.000.000 damage.... the look on their face is priceless :laugh:

I like this combo better.

EDIT: How about Thopter Engineer instead of Elixir?

Airwave
12-09-2015, 02:39 PM
I like this combo better.

EDIT: How about Thopter Engineer instead of Elixir?

That's a good idea. I did't know this card. It won't give my welder haste on the other hand, but both metalworker and forgemaster is a big up! :smile:

Fry
12-10-2015, 12:10 AM
How about Thopter Engineer instead of Elixir?

That card is a lot easier to take care of in that it is a creature and it also doesn't have the ability to untap and reuse something. Also lowers the artifact count for Metalworker.

Airwave
12-10-2015, 05:45 AM
That card is a lot easier to take care of in that it is a creature and it also doesn't have the ability to untap and reuse something. Also lowers the artifact count for Metalworker.

True, but also another body (two actually) to equip. The untap ability is nice, but the haste giving is essential for me. Current artifact count is 39 in the mentioned list, so I guess that's not a problem here.

Fry
12-10-2015, 02:00 PM
Go ahead and give it a spin and test it out. I just don't see it doing as much as Elixir, at least not in how I like to play my version.

Airwave
12-11-2015, 05:03 AM
Go ahead and give it a spin and test it out. I just don't see it doing as much as Elixir, at least not in how I like to play my version.

I will. But I guess the difference will be small, since I have only room for one copy. So it won't be decisive often.

I'm also working on a list with Copper Gnomes as an extra way to get big robots into play fast. Haven't tested it much until now though. But anyway, I thought I should share it anyway... :cool: Notice the omission of both Grim Monolith and Wasteland.


4 Copper Gnomes
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem

3 Blightsteel Colossus
3 Sundering Titan
2 Platinum Emperion
1 Platinum Angel
1 Nullstone Gargoyle

1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Lightning Greaves
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cavern of Souls

Sideboard

4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Torpor Orb
1 Duplicant
1 Maze of Ith
3 Trinisphere


Any suggestions are of course welcome! :smile:

mgrinshpon
12-11-2015, 07:16 PM
Now that we have a new colorless symbol, will MUD change its name to ))<>((?

Bobmans
12-12-2015, 02:38 AM
Yes to Dirt.
Or Dirtbag.
For those who dont follow, mana is refered to as D mana. Hence Dirt. Plus MUD is a bag full of nasty tricks... Dirtbag.

darkgh0st
12-13-2015, 12:30 AM
I posted a MUD tourney report here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30218-Metalworker-MUD-taking-4-0-at-a-21-man-FNM&p=921136#post921136) for anyone who's interested. I figured to post it at the right thread since my writing was a little long.

Silverflame
12-14-2015, 01:50 AM
I will. But I guess the difference will be small, since I have only room for one copy. So it won't be decisive often.

I'm also working on a list with Copper Gnomes as an extra way to get big robots into play fast. Haven't tested it much until now though. But anyway, I thought I should share it anyway... :cool: Notice the omission of both Grim Monolith and Wasteland.


Maybe -1 angel -1 emperion for 2 battlespheres to get those pesky planeswalkers. It was suggested before in a vacuum, but maybe Omen Machine have a place here. It's castable, you're already maxing big robots and you can flash it in response to a brainstorm using gnomes.

I'm 1 gnome and 2 blightsteal short from assembling this build, so I might test it soon.

Zombie
12-14-2015, 05:19 AM
Ruins of Sea Gate
Land
T: Add <> to your mana pool.
2<>, T: Draw a card. Activate this ability only if you have no cards in hand.

keys
12-14-2015, 05:52 AM
Ruins of Sea Gate
Land
T: Add <> to your mana pool.
2<>, T: Draw a card. Activate this ability only if you have no cards in hand.

I like it a lot. It's like a reverse Library of Alexandria. I can't tell exactly how good it is, but I'll be certain to test 2 of them maindeck. Reusable, uncounterable card draw is typically pretty good, and it's something MUD has been lacking.

Airwave
12-14-2015, 09:44 AM
Maybe -1 angel -1 emperion for 2 battlespheres to get those pesky planeswalkers. It was suggested before in a vacuum, but maybe Omen Machine have a place here. It's castable, you're already maxing big robots and you can flash it in response to a brainstorm using gnomes.

I'm 1 gnome and 2 blightsteal short from assembling this build, so I might test it soon.

Myr Battlesphere might be good against a meta with lot of planeswalkers. Maybe I should add one of those for 1 emperion. Angel is one of the few outs agains infect, I think I want to keep that one in, but then again: meta call.

Omen Machine might be a great sideboard card in this setup, maybe even 2. I'm going to test it out in the future.

On the new cards: I really like Ruins of Sea Gate too! It's great in my Bridge-control setup with Bottled Cloister ! :smile:

P.S. Ninja'ed! :tongue:

Silverflame
12-14-2015, 09:45 AM
Ruins of Sea Gate
Land
T: Add <> to your mana pool.
2<>, T: Draw a card. Activate this ability only if you have no cards in hand.

might be obvious for us, but it goes well with Bottled Cloister

P.S: beaten by 1 minute :eyebrow:

Wilkin
12-14-2015, 02:11 PM
nice report Darkghost. I also play 4 Needles in the board. So versatile and I rarely have an issue with it a Chalice. It happens but that means I have one of them out already.

MGB
12-14-2015, 03:21 PM
WHOA.

This new land could possibly be like a Library of Alexandria in this deck.

I might be getting too excited by this, but...

it seems really powerful in this deck!

Stuart
12-14-2015, 03:58 PM
Ruins of Sea Gate
Land
T: Add <> to your mana pool.
2<>, T: Draw a card. Activate this ability only if you have no cards in hand.

Interesting. I could see playing around with it in my Wasteland slot. However, it doesn't strike me as better than Coercive Portal . . .

MGB
12-14-2015, 04:04 PM
Interesting. I could see playing around with it in my Wasteland slot. However, it doesn't strike me as better than Coercive Portal . . .

Having the ability on a land is always better because then it can do double duty as a spell and a mana source.

For the same reason, Wasteland is an insanely amazing card and yet Sinkhole and Stone Rain are only marginally playable.

Cire
12-14-2015, 04:12 PM
For those who dont follow, mana is refered to as D mana.

Actually it's referred to officially as C mana. . . :tongue:

Bobmans
12-14-2015, 04:25 PM
Actually it's referred to officially as C mana. . . :tongue:
Hehe yeah figures, i had fun while it lasted.

Silverflame
12-14-2015, 05:07 PM
Hehe yeah figures, i had fun while it lasted.

It's better this way, otherwise people wouldn't want to play with us anymore, because we'd be playing dirty.

Zombie
12-14-2015, 06:02 PM
It's better this way, otherwise people wouldn't want to play with us anymore, because we'd be playing dirty.

Still, it would've been hilarious to see people playing DRUG Delver :D

darkgh0st
12-14-2015, 06:05 PM
nice report Darkghost. I also play 4 Needles in the board. So versatile and I rarely have an issue with it a Chalice. It happens but that means I have one of them out already.

There were three motivations for me to have 4 Needles SB:
Your list was one of them, the second being a hedge against Wasteland after the Dig ban, the third being I saw another deck run 3 Needles and made top8/16, whatever it was on a 160 something man tourney.
I tested it and it worked well.


@MUD Stompy testing:
I've concluded that the Zirath stompy shell doesn't work anymore even with Cavern of Souls instead of Buried Ruins. With 22 lands, mulligans have been awful, though the deck can easily survive with 1 or 2 lands only. Then I've upped the count to 23 lands, it didn't make a difference. There were just too many threats in the list that costs 6 and greater. Then I went to change half of the 6cc into 5cc (Forgemaster, Batterskull or Precursor Golem). It worked really well and most of the time didn't need Metalworker to spit out threats. At the end of the testing, I was almost at Sugiyama/L10's list with 23 lands (3 Ports over the Urborg), and Revokers instead of Greaves. So I concluded that I'd rather play the generic MUD list.

@ new draw land:
I don't think it fits the generic MUD shell. It has to go in a deck that can consistently hellbend itself and produce lots of mana. Possibly a new stompy shell. Playing it with Bottled Cloister feels like win-more.

Airwave
12-15-2015, 05:35 AM
@ new draw land:
I don't think it fits the generic MUD shell. It has to go in a deck that can consistently hellbend itself and produce lots of mana. Possibly a new stompy shell. Playing it with Bottled Cloister feels like win-more.

I agree it doesn't fit the generic MUD shell, it's too slow. I don't agree that is it a win-more in Bottled Cloister shell. These decks are low on threat count often and can use any extra card drawn. I have even played one Moonring Mirror in this shell and that wasn't even a win more, but very much needed. I guess this new land would do a better job :smile:

darkgh0st
12-15-2015, 12:30 PM
As an aside from MUD, which art do people prefer:
Ancient Tomb - Expedition (http://mythicspoiler.com/ogw/cards/ancienttomb.html)
or Tempest/FTV?

And Wasteland - Expedition (http://mythicspoiler.com/ogw/cards/wasteland.html) as well.

I would love to see a City of Traitors - Expedition as well. That would give MUD three new looks.

Bobmans
12-15-2015, 12:38 PM
GREY mana.
But i prefer original arts in most cases, especially old border. Exeption is Lightning Greaves. Promo is better, but i cant play it due to it being foil.

Stuart
12-15-2015, 12:41 PM
Having the ability on a land is always better because then it can do double duty as a spell and a mana source.


It's worth testing; assuming Standard doesn't do stupid things to its price, I'll pick up a few to try out. I'm just not sure it's better than any of our dedicated card-draw or mana options, even if it's more flexible (similar to how I feel about Hedron Archive).


As an aside from MUD, which art do people prefer:
Ancient Tomb - Expedition (http://mythicspoiler.com/ogw/cards/ancienttomb.html)
or Tempest/FTV?

And Wasteland - Expedition (http://mythicspoiler.com/ogw/cards/wasteland.html) as well.

I would love to see a City of Traitors - Expedition as well. That would give MUD three new looks.

I always prefer originals and don't love the Expedition frame, but the new art is nice. Still, MUD needs more brownish cards, not fewer.

GundamGuy
12-15-2015, 02:28 PM
I would love to see a City of Traitors - Expedition as well. That would give MUD three new looks.

I think everyone would love to see any reprint of City of Traitors, but it's reserved so :cry:

Rayek
12-16-2015, 01:33 PM
This may have been said already in the 180+ pages of this primer, but what about Ethersworn Canonist? You get to splash white for removal as well, Seal of Cleansing and Swords to Plowshares. Might even be worth a splash for an early Ghostly Prison too.

Anyone tried splashing for something other than red? I can see Black being a good splash color too, adding early discard elements to clean out removal and counterspells, making sure things go your way. Almost added Gitaxian Probe to check to see if my plays were safe, but Phyrexian mana is tough in a deck with Ancient Tomb.

Bobmans
12-16-2015, 02:13 PM
This may have been said already in the 180+ pages of this primer, but what about Ethersworn Canonist? You get to splash white for removal as well, Seal of Cleansing and Swords to Plowshares. Might even be worth a splash for an early Ghostly Prison too.

Anyone tried splashing for something other than red? I can see Black being a good splash color too, adding early discard elements to clean out removal and counterspells, making sure things go your way. Almost added Gitaxian Probe to check to see if my plays were safe, but Phyrexian mana is tough in a deck with Ancient Tomb.

GeddonStax, WhiteStax, DutchStax, Angel Stompy and whatnot. It's in other threads.
I never felt i needed Ethersworn, even against storm. Also, why, would you want to play 1 mana spells in MUD that cant be cast with Cavern of Souls or are resurrected with Daretti/Welder? #Chalice1

Silverflame
12-16-2015, 07:03 PM
This may have been said already in the 180+ pages of this primer, but what about Ethersworn Canonist? You get to splash white for removal as well, Seal of Cleansing and Swords to Plowshares. Might even be worth a splash for an early Ghostly Prison too.

Anyone tried splashing for something other than red? I can see Black being a good splash color too, adding early discard elements to clean out removal and counterspells, making sure things go your way. Almost added Gitaxian Probe to check to see if my plays were safe, but Phyrexian mana is tough in a deck with Ancient Tomb.

There were several attempts to splash to other colors, white mud with stoneforge and scourglass is the second most used.
Black usually is to use the abyss or nether void, but it's clunky (and expensive).
About 2011 people were trying green to use cradle and sylvan library with no success.
Blue MUD is called Deep Blue, it tries to get card advantage, but it's slow and doesn't get the consistency that other decks use blue for.
It's a bit hard to find sample lists.

I was thinking of brewing an RG mud with a similar manabase to Airwave's RW list from page 178. Using pod, it would go: welder -> ?? -> metalworker/scarecrone ->lodestone->kuldotha -> coil -> battlesphere -> emperion/sundering. A Thopter engineer could also fetch a welder saccing the token or a lodestone. Maaaaybe even using Impositor myr for a fast titan. Still didn't had the time to stop and think it through yet.

Wilkin
12-16-2015, 07:32 PM
I always wanted to try Blue just for Teferi's Response in the board. Gotcha! lol, but too cute. But for those wasteland and Port decks I just run Pithing Needle and I'm ok. I have a Tsabo's Web in the board right now too.

Whenever I've tried splashing a color, I would get color screwed way too often.

Rayek
12-17-2015, 01:02 AM
GeddonStax, WhiteStax, DutchStax, Angel Stompy and whatnot. It's in other threads.
I never felt i needed Ethersworn, even against storm. Also, why, would you want to play 1 mana spells in MUD that cant be cast with Cavern of Souls or are resurrected with Daretti/Welder? #Chalice1

I guess you're right about Swords, didn't think of that.Although, other builds have 1CMC cards maindeck, like Pithing Needle, which can't be cast through a Cavern either. I guess it just depends on if removing creatures or turning off Wastelands is more important in your meta?

I've not built a Welder variant, but all the matchups I've watched online with Welder never effectively use it to 'go off' or manage to protect/weld out more than two things, although I'll admit I haven't seen much and am doing a lot of research/brewing to find out if what I want to do. Welder initially seems better in a deck that runs Entomb, Gamble, XSteel Clossus and artifact lands than whatever purpose it's serving in MUD, but I don't know anything.


I always wanted to try Blue just for Teferi's Response in the board. Gotcha! lol, but too cute. But for those wasteland and Port decks I just run Pithing Needle and I'm ok. I have a Tsabo's Web in the board right now too.

Whenever I've tried splashing a color, I would get color screwed way too often.

Thinking about white, there are a few cards that would be neat to splash for (Canonist being one of them), but ultimately, from what I've seen, the problem is the counter-heavy metagame, and horizontal board development that's the shit right now (in free Elemental tokens). Grixis Delver is huge, it has Young Pyromancer, and can rack up tokens for countering my stuff with Daze and FoW, which don't care about Chalice either.

Keeping that in mind... Black seems like a great color to splash in MUD. Turn 1, game 1, Thoughtsieze or Duress is a better play in the blind than a Chalice on 1, simply because they could be playing whatever, and getting that insight plus having a way to stall their plan for a turn seems amazing, especially since the problem for MUD is keeping pace with decks that run lots of removal and counterspells. If you're on the draw and they Daze your discard spell or some other nonsense, you're not losing a chalice, you're still getting a 1 for 1 at best, and you're not losing anything important. Turn 2, drop a Trinisphere. Play Chalice at your leisure with more information. Before you drop a >5CMC baddie or a Metalworker, take a look at their hand again and take something to make sure the coast is clear.

From what I've seen, this seems like a better plan overall than counting on turn 1 Chalice for 1 (which might do little), turn 2 Cavern naming Goblin, turn 3... cast welder? From then on, betting on having dead artifacts/artifact land to weld what they manage to get rid of, assuming they don't get rid of welder? I dunno. Not dogging it, I've never played it, but it seems like a more reactive strategy than a proactive one. Black also offers some good removal for other problems that can be boarded in.

I also assume that this has been tested extensively and that I don't know anything about it (I'm only on page 10 of the primer thus far), but after looking through a lot of decklists lately, this kind of black-splash-proactive strategy makes the most sense and gives the MUD player something powerful and useful to do in the early game (and targeted discard remains just as useful in late-game) rather than mana ramping, passing turns back, and hoping the opponent doesn't have counterspells or Krosan Grips.

Airwave
12-17-2015, 03:57 AM
I've played some variants with white only in the past. The aforementioned Stoneforge Mystic is nice. But I've also played a version with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben alongside Lodestone and Thorn of Amethyst. Fully creature packed of course :smile:

Airwave
12-17-2015, 04:00 AM
There were several attempts to splash to other colors, white mud with stoneforge and scourglass is the second most used.
Black usually is to use the abyss or nether void, but it's clunky (and expensive).
About 2011 people were trying green to use cradle and sylvan library with no success.
Blue MUD is called Deep Blue, it tries to get card advantage, but it's slow and doesn't get the consistency that other decks use blue for.
It's a bit hard to find sample lists.

I was thinking of brewing an RG mud with a similar manabase to Airwave's RW list from page 178. Using pod, it would go: welder -> ?? -> metalworker/scarecrone ->lodestone->kuldotha -> coil -> battlesphere -> emperion/sundering. A Thopter engineer could also fetch a welder saccing the token or a lodestone. Maaaaybe even using Impositor myr for a fast titan. Still didn't had the time to stop and think it through yet.

I've tried to build something similar but couldn't get it to work. I'm very interested to see if you'll get it to work, scarecrone for one I didn't think about. Seems like a good choice.

On the cmc 2 -> Maybe Phyrexian Revoker?

Beauty of Birthing Pod is that you can't don't need the green mana per se :cool:

Silverflame
12-17-2015, 01:17 PM
I've tried to build something similar but couldn't get it to work. I'm very interested to see if you'll get it to work, scarecrone for one I didn't think about. Seems like a good choice.

On the cmc 2 -> Maybe Phyrexian Revoker?

Beauty of Birthing Pod is that you can't don't need the green mana per se :cool:

When I'm brewing with a color, my first concern is always "does this auto loses to bloodmoon/null rod?" as they are prevalent in my meta. The phyrexian mana on pod is a great upside on this.
Also, thopter engineer is an artificer like welder and stoneforge, so that cavern goes double duty :) Other interesting artificers are Master Transmuter, Riddlesmith, Arcum Dagsson, Faerie Mechanist, all the splicers, etherium sculptor, and Feldon, although double colored is just suicide.
Revoker seems like the best choice so far.

Airwave
12-18-2015, 04:09 AM
When I'm brewing with a color, my first concern is always "does this auto loses to bloodmoon/null rod?" as they are prevalent in my meta. The phyrexian mana on pod is a great upside on this.
Also, thopter engineer is an artificer like welder and stoneforge, so that cavern goes double duty :) Other interesting artificers are Master Transmuter, Riddlesmith, Arcum Dagsson, Faerie Mechanist, all the splicers, etherium sculptor, and Feldon, although double colored is just suicide.
Revoker seems like the best choice so far.

I hardly face any Null Rod, thank god. It would be devastating for this deck I guess since the artifacts lands are blown to hell. I guess the cloudpost version could survive, but it's a nasty card anyway.

I've thought about playing Arcum Dagsson with the nexus-manlands but never put it to real testing.

Silverflame
12-18-2015, 04:24 PM
a creature that can hold that emrakul/grisel, draw and ping twice. Interesting...


http://mythicspoiler.com/ogw/cards/endbringer.jpg

L10
12-18-2015, 05:40 PM
I'd tap that.

Rayek
12-18-2015, 07:37 PM
http://mythicspoiler.com/ogw/cards/seagateruins.jpg

Seems like out of anything, this'd be an auto include, especially for MUD decks that don't run any extra card drawing.


Sea Gate Ruins
Land
T: Add ◊ to your mana pool. (◊ represents colorless mana.)

2◊, T: Draw a card. Activate this ability only if you have no cards in hand.

darkgh0st
12-18-2015, 10:19 PM
I'd tap that.

Twice! All 3 abilities are extremely useful. Goodbye Staff of Nin and double up on this one.

@Rayek: That card was discussed one page back.

Wilkin
12-18-2015, 11:51 PM
Endbringer is an interesting one. May have to try it out. Might take it out the Staff of Nin for it. Plus since I play 4 Caverns, Endbringer could be uncounterable.

So I'm curious what is the gameplan vs 12 post? I hate that matchup although I realize now one critical mistake. I have needles in board and I name Sensei's Divining Top when I really should be naming Candelabra of Tawnos. That card makes their Cloudposts better than ours.
But the matchup still feels really really bad.

darkgh0st
12-19-2015, 12:54 AM
So I'm curious what is the gameplan vs 12 post?
...
But the matchup still feels really really bad.


No, I disagree that the match-up is really really bad. I'm 6-0 against 12-Post. I recommend to practice the match-up a lot. Chalice@1 is great. Don't Wasteland them when they have a green open, unless you have Chalice. Oh, and Chalice@1 counters Repeal targeting Chalice! Aside from Chalice, Wastelock with Crucible or Karn lock after game 1. Take them down early game or mid game, don't let them get to late game. Lightning Greaves are great here. Forgemaster is always good for their Show and Tell (if you can activate it on your turn). Watch out for potential Trickbinds after Game 1.

Rayek
12-19-2015, 02:33 AM
Endbringer is an interesting one. May have to try it out. Might take it out the Staff of Nin for it. Plus since I play 4 Caverns, Endbringer could be uncounterable.

I've been wondering how useful Devoid/Eldrazi actually are in MUD, since they can't be searched up with a Forgemaster. I guess it'd take Karn or Ugin's slot?

Wilkin
12-19-2015, 02:51 AM
No, I disagree that the match-up is really really bad. I'm 6-0 against 12-Post. I recommend to practice the match-up a lot. Chalice@1 is great. Don't Wasteland them when they have a green open, unless you have Chalice. Oh, and Chalice@1 counters Repeal targeting Chalice! Aside from Chalice, Wastelock with Crucible or Karn lock after game 1. Take them down early game or mid game, don't let them get to late game. Lightning Greaves are great here. Forgemaster is always good for their Show and Tell (if you can activate it on your turn). Watch out for potential Trickbinds after Game 1.

Ok thanks. Hmm...ok thanks. I currently don't play Crucible in the 75, but Karn is there in mine. It's true, I don't have much experience vs 12-post. I think I should have named Candelabra with Needle, at least it makes the Cloudposts less awkward.


And yeah I guess another thing to consider for Endbringer is that Lodestones make it more expensive. Right now I play 2 Staff of Domination, 1 Staff of Nin and 1 Coercive Portal. I may try Endbringer but it won't be at the expense of Ugin. I currently play 2 main and I love it. Thinking of getting another Ugin but they are still pretty expensive. You are right though, Rayek, that the artifact count should be at a certain level so I'm probably going to wait and see how other people do with the card before trying it out myself.

Bobmans
12-19-2015, 05:59 AM
Endbringer is very interesting, but not being an artifact feels a bit troublesome with the walkers already being colorless. Maybe this card would fit the Legends build more. Theb again this would slowly warp into a prison colorless Turbo Eldrazi deck.

Rikter
12-21-2015, 02:00 PM
Endbringer is very interesting, but not being an artifact feels a bit troublesome with the walkers already being colorless. Maybe this card would fit the Legends build more. Theb again this would slowly warp into a prison colorless Turbo Eldrazi deck.

Endbringer is a legit card, I am going to eventually work it into my list. Like you say though, he takes the emphasis off of the artifacts, but I think this is a good thing. With all the wastelands currently being played I think Forgemaster MUD, with its slew of high CMC stuff is a lot weaker than it used to be. I truly feel that deck loses a ton of value from not being able to reliably hardcast the Forgemaster targets.

Im playing up in Newington on the 9th using a ravager build for now, but with the printing of Endbringer I may have to switch focus. Endbringer is a card that can really shore up some matchups, he pings, he draws cards, he prevents things from attacking or blocking, and he only costs 6. This type of utility is just too much for me to overlook, although he does not synergize with things like metalworker, forgemaster or ravager.

Airwave
12-21-2015, 02:26 PM
I think Endbringer could be worth playing in a forgemaster list as well. I guess the list can suffer a few less artifacts, although I guess we're at crossroads at this point. Nice thing is that it draws cards, so he can still help you get other artifacts :smile:

I'm very very curious what will come next in the coming weeks. I expect more nice goodies to come up! :cool:

Badwise
12-22-2015, 10:14 AM
endbringer offers a huge amount of flexibility and value, I am considering playing it as a potential 3-of to replace ugins until I can get my hands on them. It is obviously less of an immediate game swing but provides lasting value and could add stability to the MUD game plan when games go long. I am really interested in the combat interaction of the temporary pacifism effect - I feel that it could make combat exchanges much easier for MUD while also holding down beaters on your opponent's turn. Stifle is becoming more prevalent but is usually held for the forgemaster as I've learned in the past. The ping could hold down planeswalkers and make the DnT matchup potentially easier. Definitely testing it out

darkgh0st
12-23-2015, 09:54 AM
Hi MUDslingers. What are the chances of Mana Vault's unbanning in Legacy? With the current shells of every deck right now, it doesn't seem like it fits into any. Even in MUD, it contradicts with Chalice.

Bobmans
12-23-2015, 10:25 AM
Hi MUDslingers. What are the chances of Mana Vault's unbanning in Legacy? With the current shells of every deck right now, it doesn't seem like it fits into any. Even in MUD, it contradicts with Chalice.
A deck with Mana Vault has a much higher chance of landing a T1 Trinisphere or Lodestone Golem. Thus not required to run Chalice (main at least). Also Voltaic Key would be really strong option here. The deck would be to broken. Unbanning Mana Vault would not happen.

Silverflame
12-28-2015, 12:00 PM
Robot Santa smiles to us again.

This one answers delver/pyromancer/SFM/revokers, is less conditional than titan's presence, but loses the ability to deal with bigger creatures.

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Spacial-Contortion-Oath-of-the-Gatewatch-Spoiler.png

EmoPizza
12-28-2015, 01:35 PM
Robot Santa smiles to us again.

This one answers delver/pyromancer/SFM/revokers, is less conditional than titan's presence, but loses the ability to deal with bigger creatures.

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Spacial-Contortion-Oath-of-the-Gatewatch-Spoiler.png
I guess the question becomes: is this better than Ratchet Bomb?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G850A using Tapatalk

Vicar in a tutu
12-28-2015, 03:02 PM
Hi MUDslingers. What are the chances of Mana Vault's unbanning in Legacy? With the current shells of every deck right now, it doesn't seem like it fits into any. Even in MUD, it contradicts with Chalice.
Mana Vault is never likely to come off the banned list. A full playset of Mana Vaults would push combodecks over the top.

Silverflame
12-28-2015, 05:19 PM
I guess the question becomes: is this better than Ratchet Bomb?

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They have different purposes, because ratchet bomb is easier to answer (stifle,revoker, needle, etc) and slower, you can't blow a stoneforge mystic before they bring a batterskull with it or a goblin lackey before it wins the game. This one is more flexible as you can answer an equipment activation, kill manlands, pump your wurmcoil for extra lifegain or reduce a goyf's toughness to trade or just as extra reach if you have a beater going. It's worth noting it also dodges Apostle's Blessing although it's more commonly seen in modern.

bruizar
12-29-2015, 01:12 AM
It's worth nothing that there is a critical mass of spot removal available to us in colorless builds now between Dismember and Contortion. Spot removal is not a problem for MUD anymore and we can aggressively board if needed. The +3/-3 addresses utility creatures mostly, which is fine because the larger threats are outclassed by the high CC robots we run anyway. It's the utility creatures we should care about.

darkgh0st
12-29-2015, 12:52 PM
@ Mana Vault: Wishful thinking, I guess.

We have an additional fragile combo from Oathkeeper: Eldrazi Mimic and Phyrexian Dreadnought.

Silverflame
12-30-2015, 09:22 PM
On the new cards: I really like Ruins of Sea Gate too! It's great in my Bridge-control setup with Bottled Cloister ! :smile:

P.S. Ninja'ed! :tongue:

Can I have a look at that list? It's always good to have more input.

Airwave
12-31-2015, 09:48 AM
4 Metalworker

4 Karn Liberated
4 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Bottled Cloister

2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Staff of Domination

3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Grim Monolith

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Mishra’s Factory
3 Vesuva
4 Wasteland


Sideboard


1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Powder Keg
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Trinisphere
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Wurmcoil Engine


This is my current control list, I'm not entirely sure what to do with it exactly yet since Endbringer could have a place here as well...

darkgh0st
01-05-2016, 10:04 PM
With lots of new Eldrazis coming out with good power-to-CC ratios and Eldrazi having 2 extra Sol Lands, I'll soon be putting MUD away. I'm counting between one to three more tournaments. It's been good here. Thanks everyone.

Airwave
01-06-2016, 09:04 AM
With lots of new Eldrazis coming out with good power-to-CC ratios and Eldrazi having 2 extra Sol Lands, I'll soon be putting MUD away. I'm counting between one to three more tournaments. It's been good here. Thanks everyone.

You really think these Eldrazi's are going to outclass MUD in legacy? :eyebrow:

I've done some testing with the "four" sol lands but it's wasn't so powerful. I think Metalworker and friends still beat the Eldrazi family..... for now :smile:

Bobmans
01-06-2016, 09:16 AM
You really think these Eldrazi's are going to outclass MUD in legacy? :eyebrow:

I've done some testing with the "four" sol lands but it's wasn't so powerful. I think Metalworker and friends still beat the Eldrazi family..... for now [emoji2]
It will be another variant of Turbo Eldrazi. Might be close to legends MUD. Still nothing like Metalworker.dec as it is now. The big problem with those Eldrazi's is that your forced to either go full artifact or go full Eldrazi. Creatures like Endbringer would ve sweet in MUD, except it not being artifact sucks.

darkgh0st
01-06-2016, 12:23 PM
You really think these Eldrazi's are going to outclass MUD in legacy? :eyebrow:

I've done some testing with the "four" sol lands but it's wasn't so powerful. I think Metalworker and friends still beat the Eldrazi family..... for now :smile:

Eldrazi isn't necessarily better. I just want to switch for a while and try something new. Endbringer just seems too sweet of a card. You can force him in MUD still (as we force Ugin in MUD as well). Some MUD lists run 3 Walkers, I'm only running one, so I technically I can have two slots for Endbringer still. Endbringer being not an artifact can also be a positive thing.

Stuart
01-06-2016, 01:07 PM
Eldrazi isn't necessarily better. I just want to switch for a while and try something new. Endbringer just seems too sweet of a card. You can force him in MUD still (as we force Ugin in MUD as well). Some MUD lists run 3 Walkers, I'm only running one, so I technically I can have two slots for Endbringer still. Endbringer being not an artifact can also be a positive thing.

While I expect MUD to be stronger than the new Eldrazi brews, I can appreciate the sentiment of wanting to take a break. I'm personally playing Enchantress for the next month or two, to clear my head of artifacts.

Endbringer is a sweet card, and looks to me like the best new Eldrazi. However, if you're still on MUD, Ugin is probably a better use of those slots. For 2 more mana he immediately wins games, which Endbringer doesn't seem like it's quite as capable of.

Silverflame
01-06-2016, 04:39 PM
Hot or not?

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/12507372_1265562020136614_3214938155206810685_n.jpg?oh=2a74491d34f5fdb6024ae932de8df8c8&oe=5718F2A8&__gda__=1460700152_920099e70e762d4fee97e65a28419abe

Airwave
01-06-2016, 05:50 PM
Hot or not?



I'd say "Hot" :cool:

sun tzu
01-06-2016, 06:41 PM
Hot or not?

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/12507372_1265562020136614_3214938155206810685_n.jpg?oh=2a74491d34f5fdb6024ae932de8df8c8&oe=5718F2A8&__gda__=1460700152_920099e70e762d4fee97e65a28419abe
This card is so crucial! Definitely worth testing!

Secretly.A.Bee
01-06-2016, 07:01 PM
Says screw you to Miracles, also.

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Wilkin
01-06-2016, 09:57 PM
Says screw you to Miracles, also.

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Sure, although MUD has a good matchup vs Miracles already.

But I like Warping Wail and Spatial Contortion. Definitely going to get a playset of both. How many I'll actually have in board, who knows. Love the fact that Warping Wail is never really a dead card. A 1/1 creature isn't super awesome but the fact it's an Envelop and can kill small dudes is incredibly versatile.

Wilkin
01-06-2016, 10:01 PM
What I also love about these cards are we have a couple of Instant cards as options. There were times that none of my 75 could interact with my opponent. Now I have at least have a few things I can do.

Airwave
01-07-2016, 03:56 AM
What I also love about these cards are we have a couple of Instant cards as options. There were times that none of my 75 could interact with my opponent. Now I have at least have a few things I can do.

Funny thing is, if opponents think we can interact, that's a plus already :cool:

streetMage
01-07-2016, 10:22 AM
This card is so crucial! Definitely worth testing!

Edit: only hits 1 toughness creatures. If only it was 1 mana cost..

Warping Wail (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/oath-of-the-gatewatch/26316-warping-wail)

Technically its "1 mana" cost with sol lands.
It also hits creatures with 1 power aswell, so you can exile Deathrite Shaman, Painter's Servant and Stoneforge Mystic to name a few legacy staples.

Captain Hammer
01-07-2016, 10:29 AM
I have always been interested in modifying this deck to accomidate Chalice of the Void and maybe Trinisphere

A resolved Chalice at 1 or Trinisphere is autowin against a big chunk of the format.

A couple of the new cards this set is introducing give us alternative cards to play in place of the 1cc spells the deck currently plays.

The same deck being able to either lock down opponents with a Chalice or Trinisphere or beat them down with Wurmcoil Engines sounds incredibly broken.

Stuart
01-07-2016, 11:40 AM
So the more I think about the OGW stuff, the less convinced I am it has a home in MUD.

MUD has a lot of strengths, but two of the most obvious are our strong prison capabilities, and our ability to very quickly get a Blightsteel, infinite Staff, etc. Do any of the new spoiled cards push those strengths more than Lodestone, Forgemaster, Metalworker, etc?

Likewise, common knowledge says that inconsitency is our biggest weakness. I guess the changed mana base might help that, but for the most part, I don't see the new stuff making us more consistent. We're still lacking deck manipulation, and will have to rely on good openers/mulling.

I hate to stifle creativity, and obviously, I could be very wrong: maybe Eldrazi MUD will become the new thing. However, I think it's smarter to pursue these cards in an entirely new deck that shares some common elements with MUD (our lands, Chalice, etc). There's certainly a lot of power in OGW, but with the exception of Warping Wail, none of that power strikes me as particularly better than what we currently have.


I have always been interested in modifying this deck to accomidate Chalice of the Void and maybe Trinisphere

A resolved Chalice at 1 or Trinisphere is autowin against a big chunk of the format.

A couple of the new cards this set is introducing give us alternative cards to play in place of the 1cc spells the deck currently plays.

The same deck being able to either lock down opponents with a Chalice or Trinisphere or beat them down with Wurmcoil Engines sounds incredibly broken.

I'm confused: are you talking about MUD, or another deck? Cause the gameplan you described is exactly what contemporary MUD does.

sun tzu
01-07-2016, 01:34 PM
Warping Wail (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/oath-of-the-gatewatch/26316-warping-wail)

Technically its "1 mana" cost with sol lands.
It also hits creatures with 1 power aswell, so you can exile Deathrite Shaman, Painter's Servant and Stoneforge Mystic to name a few legacy staples.
My bad I thought I misread it and it said 'hits toughness 1' but it also hits power 1, too. I just cant read gud apparently. Still, this card looks pretty spicy, even if it only ends up in SB.

EmoPizza
01-07-2016, 02:31 PM
I'm not that hype on warping wail over spatial contortion. There really aren't that many sorceries we care to counter from creature decks. We've got Natural Order, GSZ, Cataclysm, and CJ. Terminus isn't that big of a deal for us. I guess we can counter SnT, but dropping in Spine/3 Ball tends to answer that anyways.

I'm much more interested in being able to kill Flipped Delvers and Serra Avengers, unless Elves has a resurgence.

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Silverflame
01-08-2016, 08:00 PM
I'm testing my brew in my spare time. Sometimes it just goes nuts, others you mulligan or draw pieces that don't fit. I'm using portals to reduce inconsistency, but it is not enough.

//24 Lands
2 [MR] Tree of Tales
2 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [C14] Darksteel Citadel
4 [HOP] Great Furnace
4 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
3 [C14] Goblin Welder
3 [ORI] Thopter Engineer
2 [US] Copper Gnomes
2 [UD] Metalworker
3 [SOM] Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 [SOM] Platinum Emperion
2 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
2 [EVE] Scarecrone
2 [MBS] Blightsteel Colossus
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem

// Spells
2 [V09] Trinisphere
1 [NPH] Birthing Pod
3 [CNS] Coercive Portal
3 [MMA] Blood Moon
3 [SH] Mox Diamond

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [M14] Ratchet Bomb
SB: 3 [M15] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [ORI] Orbs of Warding
SB: 1 [PLC] Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 [NPH] Whipflare
SB: 1 [7E] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 3 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 [MBS] Spine of Ish Sah


33 artifacts + 2 factories and 2 tokens from thopter engineer. Since you spit your hand early, metalworker count is reduced.
Mostly you try to put Moon, worker or trinisphere turn 1-2 and work from there to combo. You can pod welder into gnome and lodestone into kuldotha for a hasty blighsteel if you have engineer out.
Cavern on artificer covers welder and engineer. Multiple scarecrones can do draw shenanigans.

Any ideas are welcome.

Airwave
01-11-2016, 04:02 AM
I'm testing my brew in my spare time. Sometimes it just goes nuts, others you mulligan or draw pieces that don't fit. I'm using portals to reduce inconsistency, but it is not enough.

//24 Lands
2 [MR] Tree of Tales
2 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [C14] Darksteel Citadel
4 [HOP] Great Furnace
4 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
3 [C14] Goblin Welder
3 [ORI] Thopter Engineer
2 [US] Copper Gnomes
2 [UD] Metalworker
3 [SOM] Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 [SOM] Platinum Emperion
2 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
2 [EVE] Scarecrone
2 [MBS] Blightsteel Colossus
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem

// Spells
2 [V09] Trinisphere
1 [NPH] Birthing Pod
3 [CNS] Coercive Portal
3 [MMA] Blood Moon
3 [SH] Mox Diamond

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [M14] Ratchet Bomb
SB: 3 [M15] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [ORI] Orbs of Warding
SB: 1 [PLC] Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 [NPH] Whipflare
SB: 1 [7E] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 3 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 [MBS] Spine of Ish Sah


33 artifacts + 2 factories and 2 tokens from thopter engineer. Since you spit your hand early, metalworker count is reduced.
Mostly you try to put Moon, worker or trinisphere turn 1-2 and work from there to combo. You can pod welder into gnome and lodestone into kuldotha for a hasty blighsteel if you have engineer out.
Cavern on artificer covers welder and engineer. Multiple scarecrones can do draw shenanigans.

Any ideas are welcome.

Why no Chalice of the Void? You're only playing 3 one-drops (Welders) which you can put through chalice with Cavern of Souls anyway. I think it's the strongest card we have since it wrecks so many opponents.

Next to that, I think the deck balances on two thoughts, either going for Birthing Pod setup or a more regular "red" (blood moon/welder) setup. Maybe making a choice for one of the two will help the deck. So either more silverbullet searching (like NicFit does) and upping the numbers of pods or no pod at all and more playsets of certain cards (for example 4 metalworker and 0 copper gnomes instead of 2 of each)

Hope this helps! :cool:

Silverflame
01-11-2016, 05:40 PM
Why no Chalice of the Void? You're only playing 3 one-drops (Welders) which you can put through chalice with Cavern of Souls anyway. I think it's the strongest card we have since it wrecks so many opponents.

Next to that, I think the deck balances on two thoughts, either going for Birthing Pod setup or a more regular "red" (blood moon/welder) setup. Maybe making a choice for one of the two will help the deck. So either more silverbullet searching (like NicFit does) and upping the numbers of pods or no pod at all and more playsets of certain cards (for example 4 metalworker and 0 copper gnomes instead of 2 of each)

Hope this helps! :cool:

That is the 4th build I tried and the one that went further away from traditional list (the couple first had the impositor tech I mentioned before, but it was too slow and I frowned everytime I drew it in the lategame).
I didn't want to make the deck overly dependant on pod because the life loss stacks quickly if you don't have moxen out, so it's used more as a combo enabler than card advantage. Bmoon disables cavern for the goblin, but I guess it would be ok to put chalice back. I cut it initially because of space for fast mana as we are trying to stick a 3 mana spell T1. that's also why I cut some metalworkers, since the deck just flood the board, your hand gets too empty for mw to do it's job, so the endgame is usually through gnome or kuldotha, unless I cut the bmoon to put chalice back.
I'll try to iterate a more conventional shell with the chalices back.
A small change that helped a lot was switching a portal for a Daretti, probably 2 is the sweet spot.

movingtonewao
01-13-2016, 02:53 AM
I'm not that hype on warping wail over spatial contortion. There really aren't that many sorceries we care to counter from creature decks. We've got Natural Order, GSZ, Cataclysm, and CJ. Terminus isn't that big of a deal for us. I guess we can counter SnT, but dropping in Spine/3 Ball tends to answer that anyways.

I'm much more interested in being able to kill Flipped Delvers and Serra Avengers, unless Elves has a resurgence.

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Where will warping wail fit in then? My current prediction is the sideboard, and not even as a 4 of, maybe 2?

I think we care about opposing DRS sometimes (depending on your build).

We also care about other decks that can use warping wail on our metalworkers (yikes).

Airwave
01-13-2016, 03:43 AM
Where will warping wail fit in then? My current prediction is the sideboard, and not even as a 4 of, maybe 2?

I think we care about opposing DRS sometimes (depending on your build).

We also care about other decks that can use warping wail on our metalworkers (yikes).

My guess is that it won't fit at all. Only in modern (Tron)

Other decks certainly won't use it, they don't have the colorless mana. Only maybe affinity which is very rarely played now.

movingtonewao
01-13-2016, 08:54 AM
My guess is that it won't fit at all. Only in modern (Tron)

Other decks certainly won't use it, they don't have the colorless mana. Only maybe affinity which is very rarely played now.

Which cards do you think will make a splash in legacy at all?

I still think warping wail has a use somewhere...maybe goblins can use it to counter show and tell or something (they run 4 waste 4 port afterall).
Theres also the Blue red flying/prowess/haste 1/3 guy that i think is very good in UR delver as monastery swiftspear #5+.

Back on topic, i actually just read your PM after like a million years and replied :)

Saw your control list with the bottled cloister + bridge. I don't really understand this build. what are you trying to achieve here and what is the game plan? What decks do you have a good MU against and which ones are poor?

maCHOOga
01-13-2016, 12:13 PM
Honestly, I think there metagame instances where Warping Wail shines. Spatial Contortion isn't as relevant.

Warping Wail seems like the best weapon against BUG decks...

It exiles deathrite shaman and baleful strix. IE the things that slowly kill you and prevent you from attacking
It counters Hymn to Tourach, Ancestral Vision and Toxic Deluge. IE both things they use to get avantage over you.
It makes a token that protect any decepticon that you have on the field from Lilliana.

And Elves...

It exiles basically any critter in the deck, assuming they get past the chalice.
It counters both Glimpse and Natural Order.
It's a surprise combat trick if they are trying to go wide and attack with their best creatures.

And Delver...

It kills unflipped delvers, young pyromancer, dark confidant.
It a surprise combat trick against nimble mongoose
Sorcery mode is a little less relevant, but sometimes countering a ponder gets them!


Personally I'm planning to try out 2-3 in my ratchet bomb / whipflare spots.

Bobmans
01-13-2016, 12:17 PM
Honestly, I think there metagame instances where Warping Wail shines. Spatial Contortion isn't as relevant.

Warping Wail seems like the best weapon against BUG decks...
[LIST]
It exiles deathrite shaman and baleful strix. IE the things that slowly kill you and prevent you from attacking
It counters Hymn to Tourach, Ancestral Vision and Toxic Deluge. IE both things they use to get avantage over you.
It makes a token that protect any decepticon that you have on the field from Lilliana.


Actually vs BUG this a great one. If theres one thing BUG hates is Trinisphere and no way to get mana for AD. Having WW on DRS and holding them down with 3sphere + Wasteland is very strong vs them. Also if you can protect key creatures against Liliana is big here. It offers lot of options to fight BUG and since BUG is one of the most difficult MU's i vote yes.

movingtonewao
01-14-2016, 08:46 AM
thank you for your responses. I honestly am still sitting on the fence, but since its an uncommon i'll pick a playset up and start testing it.

Airwave
01-14-2016, 11:01 AM
Which cards do you think will make a splash in legacy at all?

I still think warping wail has a use somewhere...maybe goblins can use it to counter show and tell or something (they run 4 waste 4 port afterall).
Theres also the Blue red flying/prowess/haste 1/3 guy that i think is very good in UR delver as monastery swiftspear #5+.

Back on topic, i actually just read your PM after like a million years and replied :)

Saw your control list with the bottled cloister + bridge. I don't really understand this build. what are you trying to achieve here and what is the game plan? What decks do you have a good MU against and which ones are poor?

It's a grindy control build that shines against other control (big card advantage) and profits from decks that rely on big creatures (bridge is great against sneak & show for instance). It can be somewhat tough against aggro (which isn't so prevalent in my meta) although bridge can often buy enough time to bring Ugin on the board :smile:

movingtonewao
01-15-2016, 10:13 PM
Have you brought it to an event yet? I am interested to hear more about it. I really think the bottled cloister - ensnaring bridge combo is really cute (though I hope they don't blow the cloister haha).

bruizar
01-16-2016, 02:02 AM
Honestly, I think there metagame instances where Warping Wail shines. Spatial Contortion isn't as relevant.

Warping Wail seems like the best weapon against BUG decks...

It exiles deathrite shaman and baleful strix. IE the things that slowly kill you and prevent you from attacking
It counters Hymn to Tourach, Ancestral Vision and Toxic Deluge. IE both things they use to get avantage over you.
It makes a token that protect any decepticon that you have on the field from Lilliana.

And Elves...

It exiles basically any critter in the deck, assuming they get past the chalice.
It counters both Glimpse and Natural Order.
It's a surprise combat trick if they are trying to go wide and attack with their best creatures.

And Delver...

It kills unflipped delvers, young pyromancer, dark confidant.
It a surprise combat trick against nimble mongoose
Sorcery mode is a little less relevant, but sometimes countering a ponder gets them!


Personally I'm planning to try out 2-3 in my ratchet bomb / whipflare spots.

It also exiles Bridge from Below, prevents Ichorid from recurring by exiling it and ramps into bomb by EOT wailing for an Eldrazi Petal in a pinch. Both Wail and Contortion are up on my wishlist.

Contortion is great against Monastery Mentor, Young Pyromancer and Delver, among others.

Airwave
01-17-2016, 08:12 AM
Have you brought it to an event yet? I am interested to hear more about it. I really think the bottled cloister - ensnaring bridge combo is really cute (though I hope they don't blow the cloister haha).

I think I played four with this list. Three times played around even and won one (with around 60 players)

Bottled Cloister has been blow up a few times but sometimes it didn't even matter. Losing your hand with Bridge in play is tough for the opponent as well. Sometimes opponents choose to blow up the bridge instead. But, especially after boarding, you need to be careful when to play it.

movingtonewao
01-17-2016, 08:54 AM
But, especially after boarding, you need to be careful when to play it.

why is this so?

Bobmans
01-17-2016, 09:10 AM
why is this so?

Cus your opponent will try to snipe the cloister at the time it will hurt you.

movingtonewao
01-17-2016, 08:46 PM
Oh yeah, thought knot seer aka colorless Thoughtseize just doubled in price. I was looking at it and I was wondering if we could use it as well?

MGB
01-17-2016, 10:12 PM
Oh yeah, thought knot seer aka colorless Thoughtseize just doubled in price. I was looking at it and I was wondering if we could use it as well?

At this point Eldrazi Stompy is a better MUD than MUD, imho.

If you already own the pieces to build MUD, you can build Eldrazi Stompy too. All you need to do is swap out the artifact creatures for Eldrazi, basically. I think this deck will be the Tier 1 contender that MUD always tried to be.

movingtonewao
01-17-2016, 11:13 PM
At this point Eldrazi Stompy is a better MUD than MUD, imho.

If you already own the pieces to build MUD, you can build Eldrazi Stompy too. All you need to do is swap out the artifact creatures for Eldrazi, basically. I think this deck will be the Tier 1 contender that MUD always tried to be.

I already have the MUD pieces, but I'm keen to give it a spin. Do you have a "stock" list of some sort that I could use as a starting point?

Bobmans
01-18-2016, 01:21 AM
At this point Eldrazi Stompy is a better MUD than MUD, imho.


So your saying Metalworker.dec is dead?

Airwave
01-18-2016, 04:23 AM
At this point Eldrazi Stompy is a better MUD than MUD, imho.

If you already own the pieces to build MUD, you can build Eldrazi Stompy too. All you need to do is swap out the artifact creatures for Eldrazi, basically. I think this deck will be the Tier 1 contender that MUD always tried to be.

I disagree. Show me a list that outraces MUD then. Or puts up a stronger fight in control-build.

Next to that, I highly doubt the Eldazi will bring the colorless field to Tier 1. Not with the stuff that is out now, maybe in the future it could be different..

movingtonewao
01-18-2016, 06:24 AM
I think out of all the new eldrazi I only like the colorless thoughtseize guy to sort of complement MUD. I haven't seen a full eldrazi list yet so I can't judge, but I'm open to giving eldrazi a spin, although I won't forsake MUD because there is no eldrazi metalworker.

bruizar
01-18-2016, 06:51 AM
I got 4 thought-knot seer, because it will never be a dead card. It's colorless. Fits in every EDH deck, good in standard, modern and legacy stompy style decks or just anything with tomb/traitors. I also like Reality Smasher. I might be biased because my brother ripped 2 smashers during the prerelease and did very well.

That said, I don't believe you need to go all-out Eldrazi. You can mix and match, and although Metalworker may not ramp into a gazillion mana, perhaps you don't need a gazillion mana when you are lowering your curve with these Eldrazi's anyway.

The bigger problem is that Lodestone Golem conflicts directly with these Eldrazis (I'd still play golem even though its symmetric with eldrazis).

movingtonewao
01-18-2016, 07:13 AM
I think we can all agree that we're in a state of flux now, until we get some testing done we don't know whether MUD, eldrazi MUD or a hybrid of both will be the way to go.

Gnagno
01-18-2016, 02:03 PM
Hi everyone! I'm new on this thread and I want to share my impressions on the last 75 I'm running and the new eldrazi cards:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Mishra's Factory
3 City of Traitors

3 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Tousand-Year Elixir
3 Trinisphere
1 Staff of Domination
1 Spine of Ish Sah

3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Stell Hellkite
4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus

1 Warping Wail

SB

4 Maze of Ith
1 Grafdigger's cage
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Warping Wail
1 Duplicant
2 All is Dust
2 Sundering Titan

I tested a lot this deck since I started in September (doing 6-3 on a 400 player event in Italy and two 5-2 on a 70 and 50 player event), beginning from a stompy version to the actual kuldotha list.
In my opinion kuldotha version has the advantage to win games which would end into a lose just by topdecking it.
I hate running fatties like blightsteel colossus because you may almost never cast them when they are in your hand, still I ended many game just putting it on the board because my opponent couldn'j just answer it.
The hardest MUs I ever faced are the decks based on wasteland, tarmogoyf and delver. Due to Jund, Shardless Bug, Bug Delver, Grixis Delver, Canadian, D&T all together are a large part of the metagame i put myself into the research of something that could resolves the creatures-threat (I gave up myself fighting wasteland because I'll never play pithing needle in a deck with chalice of the void). The best solution MD is wurmcoil engine: most of the time BG decks can't respond him or can't without using a large quantity of cards and time and against a deck with swords to plowshares still gains us 6 lifes, which means time to push robots into play.
Another great card to fight aggros is warping wail: it's perfect for this deck because evades chalice, removes all the most played creatures exept for tarmogyfs and flipped delver, ramps mana if necessary or sacs the token and counters sorcery, which means you have a way to interact against terminus, entreat the angels, show and tell, glimpse of nature, natural order, infernal tutor ecc. I still haven't thought of a t1/t1.5/t.2 deck where it could be a dead card and that's why I would play more of one MD; surely if I cut something, warping wail will be one of the my first option.
Anyway I'm evading the super-secret-tech: maze of ith! No one card in my eternal struggle against tarmogoyf and delver shined well as this one. Being a land it's immune to counters, if you're opponent wants to wasteland it, it will saves a land to cast spells, tricks with wurmcoil letting you to beating for six and still having a blocking creature, gaininig a huge amount of life.
It would be great if someone could test it to have more info about its potential, or try to find out a better solution for what I consider the worst MUs of this deck. :smile:
All others choices are quite traditional, I cut a chalice and a trinisphere because I don't like to draw multiple copies of a card which doesn't make a race, I play revoker MD because shuts up a lot of cards, is very good against combo and in the worst case is a easy drop artifact to sac for kuldotha.
About the new Eldrazi cards they don't looks able to stand up a chance in a format like legacy to me.
Reality smasher dies from tarmogoyf (unless you want to play without artifact at all)
Matter reshaper doesn't trigger with swords to plowshares and terminus and it's useless against combo.
Though-knot seer could be interesting, but the idea of playing it against miracle, seeing two land and giving my opponent a card when it will go away scares me too much. Furthermore it's difficult to cast with lodestone in play and if I have to choice between thought-knot and lodestone I still rather lodestone.
Endbringer is a good creature, too, but the 6 drop curve is already full and wurmcoil wins over endbringer imho.
Hoping you read all my opinions without feeling them boring or obvious! :wink:

Stuart
01-18-2016, 04:53 PM
At this point Eldrazi Stompy is a better MUD than MUD, imho.

If you already own the pieces to build MUD, you can build Eldrazi Stompy too. All you need to do is swap out the artifact creatures for Eldrazi, basically. I think this deck will be the Tier 1 contender that MUD always tried to be.

Like everyone else, I would like to hear your thoughts on this. Other than Thought-Knot sphere, none of the Eldrazi add new capabilities to the deck. Are you predicting it's gonna overtake us simply because of the bigger creatures, or because of the different mana (via Eye of Ugin, Eldrazi Temple, etc)? And why do you think that will be better positioned in the current meta than MUD is?

As I've already said, I disagree that most of the new cards have a home in MUD. However, they might fit well in the Legends MUD build (which I know you love :smile:).



Hoping you read all my opinions without feeling them boring or obvious! :wink:

Nice list! I was surprised to only see 3 Chalice, as it's one of our strongest cards. I don't mind drawing multiples: you can obviously use them to shut off other CMC cards, and multiples makes it harder for your opponent to Abrupt Decay his way out of them.

How have the 4x Cavern of Souls worked for you? I used to play 3, and hated drawing multiples, so I cut to 2.

I like the idea of 4x Wurmcoil, especially if your meta is Delver-heavy.

Do you ever play Ugin? It's an amazing card.

GradStudent
01-18-2016, 05:35 PM
New to MUD thread here: I recently started building MUD through pucatrade and was wondering if you all can recommend a particular updated build to continue to trade towards (especially with OGW now out). I do have some ugins and wastelands in my collection so I'm hoping to use those.
I'll keep lurking to learn more about matchups/sideboarding strategy.

Stuart
01-18-2016, 07:41 PM
New to MUD thread here: I recently started building MUD through pucatrade and was wondering if you all can recommend a particular updated build to continue to trade towards (especially with OGW now out). I do have some ugins and wastelands in my collection so I'm hoping to use those.
I'll keep lurking to learn more about matchups/sideboarding strategy.

Welcome to the deck. The most common MUD lists look sort of like this:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=10643&d=260920&f=LE

The big creatures and number of Caverns, Wastelands, and Vesuvas tend to vary, but you get the idea.

GradStudent
01-18-2016, 08:03 PM
Welcome to the deck. The most common MUD lists look sort of like this:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=10643&d=260920&f=LE

The big creatures and number of Caverns, Wastelands, and Vesuvas tend to vary, but you get the idea.

thanks
whats the deal with the version with ulamogs and coercive portals http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=10804&d=261801&f=LE
is it any good? anyone playtest it?

Gnagno
01-18-2016, 08:16 PM
Nice list! I was surprised to only see 3 Chalice, as it's one of our strongest cards. I don't mind drawing multiples: you can obviously use them to shut off other CMC cards, and multiples makes it harder for your opponent to Abrupt Decay his way out of them.

How have the 4x Cavern of Souls worked for you? I used to play 3, and hated drawing multiples, so I cut to 2.

I like the idea of 4x Wurmcoil, especially if your meta is Delver-heavy.

Do you ever play Ugin? It's an amazing card.

Thanks! Yes chalice is very strong but this choice is more personal than other, even if I play a deck like MUD I can't stand the idea of drawing a chalice in late game :mad:

About the cavern I feel very comfortable with that, because you shut down all delver's counters and they let you play robots without fearing daze or fow. Being you're best win conditions wurmcoil and sundering titan in Blue-based MU (delver deck and miracle essentially) you have to let them resolve. I can't count the times I simply made 8 mana into sundering titan incounterable and destroyed half of my opponent's board. A friend of mine which I tested was so mad he started playing back to basic in miracle just to beat me XD

This is also why I don't run Ugin. I played it and it's a rocket, the card which wins the games when resolved. But in which MU can you resolve it?

Delver deck? They have wasteland (from one to three in their opening hand when they play against me), daze, pierce, fow and if I can cast Ugin it means my opponent hasn't done it's job well.

D&t? Even worse, in addiction to wasteland there's rishadan port, thalia and revoker.

Against combo it sucks like almost all planeswalkers.

The only MU when it really shines is control, but I rather an incounterable threat like sundering.
So I just cut it. It can be easily switched with all is dust of course, maybe tomorrow I will give Ugin a second chance. :smile:

Shinwei
01-20-2016, 01:17 AM
I just played 5 rounds on MTGO with the list found http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=10804&d=261801&f=LE (Ugins and Coercive Portals). I did one 2-man and 1 4-round daily event.

In the 2-man, I played vs Dredge and I had zero graveyard hate anywhere to be found so I lost.

Legacy Daily Round 1 vs Miracles
This matchup was quite easy. Most of their spells don't affect me at all. The scariest threat Miracles has is Vendilion Clique. He was able to steal game 2 from me with a timely Vendilion Clique that took the Ugin out of my otherwise weak hand.
I boarded out most my Wurmcoil Engines because they will keep Swords to Plowshares. Boarded in the last Ulamog and I forget what else. Not sure if correct, this matchup is already pretty good.

Legacy Daily Round 2 vs Burn
Chalice on 1, Trinisphere, Karn exiling mountains, and Glimmerposts won me game 1.
Game 2 he was able to fire off a quick win using price of progress.
Game 3 I had Chalice on both 1 and 2, and eventually landed a Wurmcoil.
I boarded in Trinisphere #4, Wurmcoil #4, and 4x Lodestone Golem. Boarded out Karns, Ulamogs, some number of Ugin. Again, not sure if correct.

Legacy Daily Round 3 vs Reanimator
He won the die roll and went off real quickly game 1.
Game 2 I was able to land Chalice and Trinisphere into Ulamog, gg.
Game 3 I mulliganed to 4 to try and find a turn 1 Chalice, or at least turn 2 Trinisphere. No dice.
Again, there's no graveyard hate in this list so it's tough.

Legacy Daily Round 4 vs. Goblin Rabblemaster, Blood Moon, Chalice, Thunderbreak Regent, Koth deck.
Game 1 I eventually got Ugin using mana artifacts because they were not affected by Blood Moon.
Game 2 he had a turn 1 Goblin Rabblemaster off of 2x Simian Spirit guide and I could not get enough mana in time to cast All is Dust.
Game 3 I punted when he had a turn 2 Goblin Rabblemaster - There was a situation where I had the following board:
Glimmerpost, Karakas, City of Traitors, Grim Monolith (Tapped), Voltaic Key, Coercive Portal
My hand was: Karn, Wurmcoil, Ugin, All is Dust, Karakas
I could have not played the Karakas and just played Wurmcoil, but I chose to All is Dust instead. Turn after that he casts Shattering spree to kill coercive portal and voltaic key. I never draw enough mana to cast anything else.
I took out Trinispheres and Chalices game 2, but put Chalice back in game 3 because I saw shattering spree. In retrospect, this doesn't even work that well, so maybe Chalices just belong out for the whole matchup.

Going forward I definitely want some Tormod's Crypts or something in the sideboard. So I took out:
-3 Ratchet Bomb (already have Ugin and All is Dust...)
-2 Spine of Ish Sah (already have Karn and Ulamog...)
-1 Trading Post (honestly I don't know what matchup to bring this in for)
+4 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Orbs of Warding

I think Orbs of Warding is worth a try because Monolith + Voltaic Key gives you the magic 5 mana. Playing this deck I've often found myself able to generate 5 when I only needed 4 for a Coercive Portal or Thran Dynamo.

Will try again tomorrow.

Bobmans
01-20-2016, 02:16 AM
In the 2-man, I played vs Dredge and I had zero graveyard hate anywhere to be found so I lost.


The key to win from Dredge play on manadenial (trinisphere) and a quick Platinum Emperion/Steel Hellkite. I found the match-up to be fairly easy this way.

Gnagno
01-20-2016, 06:26 AM
I took out Trinispheres and Chalices game 2, but put Chalice back in game 3 because I saw shattering spree. In retrospect, this doesn't even work that well, so maybe Chalices just belong out for the whole matchup.

Going forward I definitely want some Tormod's Crypts or something in the sideboard. So I took out:
-3 Ratchet Bomb (already have Ugin and All is Dust...)
-2 Spine of Ish Sah (already have Karn and Ulamog...)
-1 Trading Post (honestly I don't know what matchup to bring this in for)
+4 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Orbs of Warding

Note the copies of shattering spree evade chalice at one because they aren't cast.

About trading post I met the one who played it on that tournament and told me it's useful for recycling tapped monoliths, making chumpblockers or gaining life while necessary. You take it in against long MUs, like miracle or shardless BUG.
The best trick you can do with trading post is sac spine of ish sah to draw, so spine will come back to your hand and you will be able to destroy another permanent.
Despite all I tried it and I wasn't fully satisfied. You invest a card in your hand and four mana to just do 1x1 with your resources.

Against graveyard i suggest you faerie macabre: it not collides with chalice and trinisphere (sometimes it comes up you play trinisphere or chalice at 0 and then you draw graveyard hate), it's not a spell (only pithing needle or stifle can manage it), evades removal and last but not the least, in an unknown meta is very unpredictable. :smile:

Shinwei
01-22-2016, 01:24 AM
Just played another 11 2-man queues on MTGO with the Legendary MUD list. Just some notes:

- Won vs Miracles. This matchup is still really easy. Just have to watch out for Vendilion Clique and Jace.
- Won vs Stoneblade. All is Dust and Ugin are key here for killing True Name Nemesis.
- Lost vs Shardless BUG. I can't seem to beat this matchup. They have just enough disruption to stop the Master MUD plan.
- Won vs Eureka. Turns out putting Ugin and Karn onto the battlefield when they cast Eureka is pretty good :)
- Lost vs Junk. Knight of the Reliquary spamming wastelands is really tough. I was able to steal game 1 with a surprise Karakas on his Marit Lage token, though :)
- Lost vs Elves. I think the only way to win this matchup is to get an early Chalice or Trinisphere out. Game 3 he won through Trinisphere by putting out 2x Dryad Arbor and producing enough mana to hardcast Craterhoof Behemoth with 2x Gaea's Cradle.
- Lost vs Dredge. The graveyard hate I added was awesome, but I punted in game 3 by trying to sandbag a Tormod's Crypt instead of playing it on the critical turn where he played land #2, careful study, AND breakthrough.
- Won vs Normal MUD. Karn and Ulamog + Karakas seem to gives us an edge in the mirror. I exiled two Kuldotha Forgemasters and the opponent's cloudposts. Opponent didn't even want to play game 2 and just left after losing game 1.
- Won vs Merfolk. I think I got lucky in game 3 since opponent seemed to be flooded and the only merfolk he ever drew were 3x Silvergill Adept. Lodestone Golem is good in this matchup.
- Lost vs Grixis Pyromancer. I think this matchup is pretty hard. They have wastelands and counterspells and Deathrite Shaman. T1 Deathrite, T2 wasteland on my cloudpost is just about the scariest opening there is.
- Won vs Burn. Trinisphere and Wurmcoil Engine are amazing :)

keys
01-22-2016, 06:14 AM
Looks a lot like Modern Tron but with better lands and disruption.

(nameless one)
01-22-2016, 08:56 AM
Looking to update the primer.

What exactly is the legendary lists?

Bobmans
01-22-2016, 09:48 AM
Looking to update the primer.

What exactly is the legendary lists?
Gonna give it a spin soon. But still got other decks waiting before i do.
Not sure if i want to play MUD without Forgemaster shenanigans tho.

This is the mtgtop8 link. Unwinding Clock might be sweet here.

Edit correct list.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Karakas
3 Vesuva

2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Basalt Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Coercive Portal
4 Grim Monolith
2 Hedron Archive
3 Karn Liberated
1 Staff of Nin
3 Thran Dynamo
3 Trinisphere
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Voltaic Key

SIDEBOARD
2 All Is Dust
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Trading Post
1 Trinisphere
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Wurmcoil Engine

Shinwei
01-22-2016, 03:22 PM
Looking to update the primer.

What exactly is the legendary lists?

It's this http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=10804&d=261801&f=LE

I modified the sideboard a little bit for my testing. Bobmans posted incorrect information :)

Bobmans
01-22-2016, 03:58 PM
It's this http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=10804&d=261801&f=LE

I modified the sideboard a little bit for my testing. Bobmans posted incorrect information :)
Lol, i copied the wrong list now i see. Weird, but i meant to copy yours idd.

Edit: fixed

MGB
01-22-2016, 05:40 PM
Here's the list I've been playing:



4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Karakas
4 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin

3 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
4 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Karn Liberated

4 Basalt Monolith
4 Grim Monolith
1 Hedron Archive
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Coercive Portal

sb:
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere
1 Duplicant



I find that you just want to land the bombs against every deck. Wurmcoil is nice against some decks but a liability against others (like Miracles) or can be raced by decks it's supposed to be good against. I've found that the combination of Ugin, Karn, and the Legendary Eldrazi is good against nearly everything, and prevents your opponent from having any targets for creature removal in G1.

The idea is to completely crush the fair decks in G1 with all the powerful end-game stuff, and then transition into more traditional Revoker/Golem MUD against unfair decks in G2 and G3.

Shinwei
01-22-2016, 06:40 PM
Unfortunately I can't test out Kozilek on MTGO yet since it's not released :(

MGB
01-22-2016, 07:00 PM
Unfortunately I can't test out Kozilek on MTGO yet since it's not released :(

Since I test non-paper Magic on XMage, I've had access to OGW for weeks now.

I've found Kozilek to be surprisingly good, especially against control and midrange. He just completely refuels your hand and erects an impenetrable counterwall most times he's cast.

Gnagno
01-23-2016, 06:33 AM
Are you able to cast cards with a CMC so high even against deck with wasteland? I never tried it because I don't posses karakas and eldrazis but I'm curious about this version.

MGB
01-23-2016, 06:56 AM
Are you able to cast cards with a CMC so high even against deck with wasteland? I never tried it because I don't posses karakas and eldrazis but I'm curious about this version.

The idea behind the manabase is redundancy and resilience.

The combination of 4 Tomb, 4 City, 12 Post, AND added to that, 4 Basalt Monolith, 4 Grim Monolith, 4 Thran Dynamo and 1-2 Hedron Archive means that you will get to 10+ mana very frequently and consistently. 1-2 Wasteland is usually not a problem enough to disrupt you. The only real problem posed by Wasteland is if it's backed up with Rishadan Port and a fast clock, or if it's recursive Wasteland (through the use of Life from the Loam or Crucible of Worlds).

One of the upsides to playing this version over the traditional MUD list is that Basalt Monolith and Thran Dynamo are more resilient than Metalworker and Kuldotha Forgemaster. Basalt Monolith will never die to a Lightning Bolt, a Punishing Fire, a Swords to Plowshares, or a Terminus. Thran Dynamo will never die to creature removal either, and additionally evades Abrupt Decay. This way, you can more confidently ensure getting to higher levels of mana when you play Basalt Monoliths and Thran Dynamos over the traditional MUD creatures.

I've won games where my lands were destroyed but I still cast Ugin purely off the Monoliths and Dynamos. I've won games where I was hit 2-3 times by Wasteland and still managed to recur Ulamog with Karakas.

Bobmans
01-23-2016, 07:07 AM
How would you compare Formaster/Metalworker vs Legends build in terms of consistancy?

MGB
01-23-2016, 07:47 AM
How would you compare Formaster/Metalworker vs Legends build in terms of consistancy?


Forgemaster and Metalworker can lead to more explosive starts (i.e. they don't get rid of Metalworker and you untap with him into Blightsteel+Greaves combo next turn, for example). Forgemaster can also randomly tutor for game-savers on losing board states that just Ulamog or Ugin *might* not be able to completely handle (i.e. tutoring for Platinum Angel if you're dead to a combo next turn).

But Legends MUD is more consistent in executing its gameplan of ramping into bombs. I feel, in testing, that there is a higher percentage of games Legends MUD wins that Forgemaster MUD might not, because of Legends MUD's near-immunity to creature removal. You might lose that game against Miracles if they have StP + Snap and you're banking on keeping your Forgemaster or Lodestone in play before he lands Jace. Legends MUD is 98%+ to win that match barring flukey draws because your mana rocks are immune to anything Miracles can do, and Legends MUD is going to eventually land Karn or Ulamog on his board.

Gnagno
01-23-2016, 08:10 AM
The idea behind the manabase is redundancy and resilience.

The combination of 4 Tomb, 4 City, 12 Post, AND added to that, 4 Basalt Monolith, 4 Grim Monolith, 4 Thran Dynamo and 1-2 Hedron Archive means that you will get to 10+ mana very frequently and consistently. 1-2 Wasteland is usually not a problem enough to disrupt you. The only real problem posed by Wasteland is if it's backed up with Rishadan Port and a fast clock, or if it's recursive Wasteland (through the use of Life from the Loam or Crucible of Worlds).

One of the upsides to playing this version over the traditional MUD list is that Basalt Monolith and Thran Dynamo are more resilient than Metalworker and Kuldotha Forgemaster. Basalt Monolith will never die to a Lightning Bolt, a Punishing Fire, a Swords to Plowshares, or a Terminus. Thran Dynamo will never die to creature removal either, and additionally evades Abrupt Decay. This way, you can more confidently ensure getting to higher levels of mana when you play Basalt Monoliths and Thran Dynamos over the traditional MUD creatures.

I've won games where my lands were destroyed but I still cast Ugin purely off the Monoliths and Dynamos. I've won games where I was hit 2-3 times by Wasteland and still managed to recur Ulamog with Karakas.

If this version is able to contrast wastelands I think it's worth a try, even if I don't really think I will ever play it, karakas and karn are a lot of money :cry:

Bobmans
01-23-2016, 09:08 AM
@MGB, i just put together your list and played a bunch of games against Punishing Jund... won all games. Pretty impressed with how this deck plays and feels. Just sweet.

bruizar
01-23-2016, 11:33 AM
I thought the deck looks very streamlined as well

Gheizen64
01-23-2016, 03:37 PM
I wrote an answer that got lost in the depths of the interwebs.

Anyway:

Karn felt somewhat weak to me.

I'm trying Worn Powerstone isntead of Basalt Monolith to see when one is better than the other.

List felt strong otherwise.

EDIT: also i was thinking, since all your top end bombs are Eldrazi aside from Ugin, what about you play Temple and more Ugins? Mostly to avoid running 4 cities because i really dislike cities in any mana base. You could run a couple of all is dust instead of karn as a mass removal that is accellerated by both temple and eye of ugin. Only Ugin would not be accellerated but you'd still have Dynamos/monoliths/Posts etc... to get to it, not to say how good eye of ugin is in a lategame situation and the fact that you get even more resilient to wasteland (cause you'd play less traitors but more overall sol lands).

Alex Holland
01-24-2016, 06:43 AM
So nobody tried warping wail yet?

Could be a main deck card, i put some in my sideboard to play around with. Took out the ratchet bombs for them..

Main goal is to crack bottle gnomes for good things. Like t2 blightsteel. Or for a staff of nin to generate huge piles of advantage. Its a cute overlooked little fellow

thespian stage + cloudpost is secret tech to make a lot of mana.

Scroll rack digs deep with staff of nin. Thats why i call this CA MUD. :tongue:


4 Copper Gnomes
1 Steel Hellkite
4 Metalworker
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Platinum Emperion

2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere

2 Scroll Rack
3 Staff of Nin
3 Lightning Greaves

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Thespian's Stage
3 City of Traitors

SB: 3 Duplicant
SB: 4 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Warping Wail
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds

Gnagno
01-24-2016, 06:49 AM
I tried warping wail and I'm very happy of it. For now I'm playing one MD and two on SB, but I'm quite sure I'll put more of them as soon as I'll find more slots. I haven't faced a MU where it's useless and it resolves a large number of problems you could'nt handle before in an easily way.

MGB
01-24-2016, 09:28 AM
Warping Wail is a really powerful card because of its cheap cost and extreme versatility.

I've been really impressed with the card in testing Modern Eldrazi, and I figure it could find a spot in this deck as well, but I just don't know what to cut for it.

Michael Keller
01-24-2016, 09:37 AM
So nobody tried warping wail yet?

Could be a main deck card, i put some in my sideboard to play around with. Took out the ratchet bombs for them..

Main goal is to crack bottle gnomes for good things. Like t2 blightsteel. Or for a staff of nin to generate huge piles of advantage. Its a cute overlooked little fellow

thespian stage + cloudpost is secret tech to make a lot of mana.

Scroll rack digs deep with staff of nin. Thats why i call this CA MUD. :tongue:


4 Copper Gnomes
1 Steel Hellkite
4 Metalworker
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Platinum Emperion

2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere

2 Scroll Rack
3 Staff of Nin
3 Lightning Greaves

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Thespian's Stage
3 City of Traitors

SB: 3 Duplicant
SB: 4 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Warping Wail
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds

No love for Sundering Titan? Seems a touch broken with Copper Gnomes.

Silverflame
01-24-2016, 12:25 PM
I tried a new list yesterday without post mana and using the new eldrazi vendillion and endbringer on eldrazi temples. It was the worst build I ever played. Thought-Knot Seer is too small and slow, couldn't attack through a bunch of small D&T creatures, the mana base was shaky and I was many times not able to cast anything. Endbringer saw play twice, one he was needled, the other I died before untapping. I tried putting wail and spatial contortion SB but never got to cast them, so no opinion on them so far.

Thought Knot could possibly work with birthing pod and matter reshaper, but they need too many eldrazi slots and doesn't solve the main problems of the deck (inconsistent draws, instant finishers, etc), so I won't be experimenting further on that road for a while.

movingtonewao
01-24-2016, 09:21 PM
have you tried MGB's list from the previous page? It looks pretty streamlined.

Silverflame
01-25-2016, 04:47 AM
have you tried MGB's list from the previous page? It looks pretty streamlined.

Not that particular list, but I tried mud legends online and it felt ridiculously overpowered, but I didnt had the paper cards. I'll test it more.

This list is very close to what I was playing Last year http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=98008

movingtonewao
01-25-2016, 05:03 AM
saw your list on the link. Since you don't maindeck any ensnaring bridge, why not swop out the MD bottled cloister for the coercive portal in the board?

movingtonewao
01-25-2016, 09:00 AM
did you just link the same link as 2 posts above? lol.

nedleeds
01-25-2016, 12:36 PM
Tried Warping Worker at the SCG Atlanta yesterday. Lost to the same thing MUD always loses to, poor top decks, and an endless mulligan run vs. a known storm opponent (on the play no less, which is like a 75% match in my favor).

Round 1 - Lose to Miracles after decapitating him game one. Game 2 I have Thorns but he has actual Vendillion Clique and 4-5 lands. I could have run out Chalice first but he had no turn one on the play (e.g. no top). I also Waste him after committing the thorn plan and don't see a land in my next 6 draw steps. Game 3 I mulligan to a hand without a ton of action but Factory and some lands it's a close game but he eventually lands a small Retreat and my tomb damage comes back to get me.

Round 2 - Win. I'll have to look this up I remember it took approximately 5 minutes ...

Round 3 - Win. Reanimator. 2 quick games of me landing chalice 1, chalice 2 with Faerie Macabre backup in hand.

Round 4 - Win. (Charlotte Classic Legacy Winner on Miracles) Game on I land chalice after he has top on the play. I follow up with 3 ball which he forces but loses his top in the process. I eventually grind a win out with cavern on construct into titan. Game two is pretty slow but I can't get at his mana and he gets me with a monk after a timely force of will and 3 STPs. Game 3 I have the nuts, chalice 1, 3ball, cavern on golem, grim-m into naturally drawn Sundering Titan off Cavern.

Round 5 - Lose to known storm player when I have the play mulligan to 4 game one looking for any turn one or two play involving Chalice or 3ball. Game 2 I demolish him on a mulligan to 6 when I get cards with text like Revoker. Game 3 I keep a good hand for the draw but am vulnerable to a fast empty (I board in Ratchet Bomb on the draw vs. storm because their best turn one is an empty). He empties for 12. I feel like MUD should almost never lose a game on the play. Only other decision point was game 1, he Ponders off fetched Underground and I wastelanded him. My hand had stone nothing after the mulligan, I think hoping to mana screw him is defensible. Turns out he was on no basics at all.

darkgh0st
01-25-2016, 10:44 PM
My testing of Eldrazi MUD points to:

Only using Thought-Knot Seer in a combo version and maybe even just in the SB
Add in Reality Smasher for an aggro version
Eldrazi Temples are unimpressive. Use of 10-12 Post is still better, with more worthwhile plays.

movingtonewao
01-25-2016, 11:27 PM
eldrazi temples < city of traitors?

FTW
01-26-2016, 08:59 AM
Is it really worth playing any of them other than Thought-Knot Seer? I guess Reality Smasher is awkward to kill, but it's also more awkward to cast when it interferes with Metalworker ramp. Considering it just trades 1-for-1 with Gurmag Angler or Goyf double blocks, Smasher seems weak in some matches...

What's with the post manabases? 12post seems way too inconsistent without running dedicated 12post search.


Mono-Brown Stompy
//Lands: 22
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 City of Traitors
3 Crystal Vein
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Darksteel Citadel

//Stax: 7
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere

//Ramp: 12
4 Grim Monolith
4 Metalworker
2 Voltaic Key
2 Lightning Greaves

//Creatures: 17
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite

//Spells: 2
2 Warping Wail

Alex Holland
01-26-2016, 01:27 PM
Is it really worth playing any of them other than Thought-Knot Seer? I guess Reality Smasher is awkward to kill, but it's also more awkward to cast when it interferes with Metalworker ramp. Considering it just trades 1-for-1 with Gurmag Angler or Goyf double blocks, Smasher seems weak in some matches...

What's with the post manabases? 12post seems way too inconsistent without running dedicated 12post search.


Mono-Brown Stompy
//Lands: 22
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 City of Traitors
3 Crystal Vein
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Darksteel Citadel

//Stax: 7
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere

//Ramp: 12
4 Grim Monolith
4 Metalworker
2 Voltaic Key
2 Lightning Greaves

//Creatures: 17
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite

//Spells: 2r
2 Warping Wail


Seems horrible. Eldrazi temple seems a half baked city of traitors that suits less then a hand of cards in the list.

Tought knot seer gives some disruption in a new way. But i doubt if he is better then lodestone, wich i dont run because sometimes its just fodder and that seems to be the case with tought knot too. Against what would he shine? Combo? Well thats not a hard matchup for mud. Other decks play enough removal wich in the end makes tought knot a 4/4 for 4. Wich is not bad but not good either..

nedleeds
01-26-2016, 03:36 PM
I don't want any of the Eldrazi creatures. There are painful choices already between the bounty of available artifact creatures. None of the eldrazi play well with Lodestone which is the best attacking creature in the deck. I played Warping Wail and it is the real deal, it shores up many of the most problematic situations for MUD, especially on the draw. Wail gets bumped by 3ball and potentially golem but it's still amazing against a huge portion of the legacy netdecks.

MGB
01-26-2016, 07:14 PM
nedleeds you should never lose to Storm combo in a best of 3 match if you're playing MUD. Do you play 4 Revokers in your 75? I play 4 Revokers in the SB of every MUD deck I bring to tournaments and it's the only way you really guarantee crushing Storm because once you have 4 Chalice, 4 Revoker, 4 Trini, AND 4 Lodestone, you don't have to mulligan to get enough hate in your opening hand. I also play 2 Thorn of Amethyst in the SB as well, which might be overkill but I absolutely DO NOT want to lose my good matchups.

nedleeds
01-28-2016, 02:22 PM
nedleeds you should never lose to Storm combo in a best of 3 match if you're playing MUD. Do you play 4 Revokers in your 75? I play 4 Revokers in the SB of every MUD deck I bring to tournaments and it's the only way you really guarantee crushing Storm because once you have 4 Chalice, 4 Revoker, 4 Trini, AND 4 Lodestone, you don't have to mulligan to get enough hate in your opening hand. I also play 2 Thorn of Amethyst in the SB as well, which might be overkill but I absolutely DO NOT want to lose my good matchups.


Game 2 I demolish him on a mulligan to 6 when I get cards with text like Revoker. Game 3 I keep a good hand for the draw but am vulnerable to a fast empty (I board in Ratchet Bomb on the draw vs. storm because their best turn one is an empty). He empties for 12. I feel like MUD should almost never lose a game on the play.

Did you even read? Yes, I play 4 x Revoker ... 4 x 3Ball, 4 x Chalice, 4 x LSG. I also had 2 Thorns in my board. I also had 4 god damn Envelops in my deck and still managed to not have a keepable hand. There's a reason this deck is a crap shoot. Even worse *I knew* he was on storm, had the play and mulled to 4. My first 3 hands had no plays. My 4 had a Wasteland, another land, 3ball and Metalworker. My scry showed me a fucking sick looking Wurmcoil Engine. After that debacle I dropped at 3-2 in a 7 round event, I had no desire to continue to 'play'.

L10
01-28-2016, 08:14 PM
There's a reason this deck is a crap shoot.
That's just Magic. Sometimes, you just get really unlucky.

Fry
01-28-2016, 09:26 PM
Nedleeds, I've done everything from a turn 2 Ugin to doing virtually nothing and being slaughtered. It happens sometimes. If you don't like how this deck can do that, then find something else that probably has blue in it so you don't whine about how some decks crap out sometimes.

Bobmans
01-29-2016, 02:18 AM
He plays moon decks, he should know this.
I couldn't even begin to count i opened with Blightsteel Colossus in my hand or had it as a first draw. Every deck does that, especially non blue and especially this deck with it's big CMC's.

ZEROorDIE
01-29-2016, 10:44 AM
Nedleeds, I've done everything from a turn 2 Ugin to doing virtually nothing and being slaughtered. It happens sometimes. If you don't like how this deck can do that, then find something else that probably has blue in it so you don't whine about how some decks crap out sometimes.

Yes, this deck definitely suffers from variance. I've had to put it down for a while due to the prevalence of black and green decks at my lgs. Been blood mooning the crap out of greedy mana bases lately though.

nedleeds
01-29-2016, 10:53 AM
Nedleeds, I've done everything from a turn 2 Ugin to doing virtually nothing and being slaughtered. It happens sometimes. If you don't like how this deck can do that, then find something else that probably has blue in it so you don't whine about how some decks crap out sometimes.

I wasn't whining in my initial report, I stated why I lost. I was directly responding to somebody who clearly didn't read what I wrote and responded directly to me, in that response I guess I whined about losing what should be a positive matchup. Why should I 'go play blue'? I explained that I lost to the same thing this deck and other stompy decks often lose to, of which I've played every variety. You on the other hand are just instigating. I don't need to find anything.

Silverflame
01-30-2016, 11:17 AM
I don't want any of the Eldrazi creatures. There are painful choices already between the bounty of available artifact creatures. None of the eldrazi play well with Lodestone which is the best attacking creature in the deck. I played Warping Wail and it is the real deal, it shores up many of the most problematic situations for MUD, especially on the draw. Wail gets bumped by 3ball and potentially golem but it's still amazing against a huge portion of the legacy netdecks.

I agree with you that just splashing eldrazis on the deck doesn't work (I tested about 30 games, the build sucked), but maybe a dedicated list works. It wo'nt be like what we are used to do, but may be playable. I found said list, but hadn't tested it yet. http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/363500#online

Barsoom
02-03-2016, 08:03 PM
I'm having success recently (on cockatrice) with this version of Legend MUD based on the list posted by MGB on 3674 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23388-Deck-MUD-(Metalworker)&p=927537&viewfull=1#post927537)

Legend MUD

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
2 Eldrazi Temple
1 Eye of Ugin

2 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
3 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Karn Liberated

4 Basalt Monolith
4 Grim Monolith
3 Thran Dynamo
2 Hedron Archive
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Coercive Portal
1 Staff of Nin
2 Voltaic Key

Sideboard:
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Warping Wail
2 All is Dust

MUD is together with OmniTell the deck i played mostly in Legacy, from the first version without Post lands to MUD Post to now, and i must say i really like this Legend version.
In a few words, we have in this version less mana problems and the ability to draw cards, the two historical problems of the MUD archetype.
We doesn't play creatures either (outside Eldrazi), and this many times is a big advantage.

About my list, what i'm not sure about and possible changes to test with are:
-1 City of Traitors +1 Eldrazi Temple? is 4 City of Traitors too much?
-1 Karn Liberated it's one of the card i side out the most, Ugin is in most situations the best planeswalker to play
-1 Basalt Monolith +1 Voltaic Key could improve the mana artifacts suite, and is Basalth Monolith better than Worn Powerstone? the answer is probably yes but i never tested the stone

From the side, is All is Dust really needed? i side it in a ton, but Warping Wail is awesome too, so maybe -2 All is Dust +2 Warping Wail (for Delver expecially) can work

I'm quite happy with the rest of the deck and i suggest MUD lovers to try it.

Admiral_Arzar
02-04-2016, 10:17 AM
About my list, what i'm not sure about and possible changes to test with are:
-1 City of Traitors +1 Eldrazi Temple? is 4 City of Traitors too much?
-1 Karn Liberated it's one of the card i side out the most, Ugin is in most situations the best planeswalker to play
-1 Basalt Monolith +1 Voltaic Key could improve the mana artifacts suite, and is Basalth Monolith better than Worn Powerstone? the answer is probably yes but i never tested the stone

From the side, is All is Dust really needed? i side it in a ton, but Warping Wail is awesome too, so maybe -2 All is Dust +2 Warping Wail (for Delver expecially) can work

I'm quite happy with the rest of the deck and i suggest MUD lovers to try it.

I've been considering putting this type of list together for a while. I would go ahead and test -1 City of Traitors, +1 Eldrazi Temple (or maybe a Cavern of Souls, which I like here as well). If it impacts your ability to play stuff on turn 1 you can always put it back in. Karn is probably fine as a 2-of, as you said, Ugin is generally better. Playing more Ugins also cuts down on the need to play All is Dust in the sideboard. I feel like you want at least 3 Voltaic Key here. 4 might be too many, but it also might be good - it's been a while since I've played Key in MUD but I like the card and it is very powerful with this number of mana rocks. Keep in mind that Key also allows you to counter Swords to Plowshares with Kozilek, which is a strong interaction if you lack a Chalice. Warping Wail is amazing and definitely deserves some slots in the board IMO.

Barsoom
02-04-2016, 11:26 AM
I made a typo in the original list, i'm playing 3 Thran Dynamo and not 4, so the mana rocks are

4 Grim Monolith
4 Basalt Monolith
3 Thran Dynamo
2 Hedron Archive

Hedron is good with it's ability to draw cards, the only slot i can change here is 3 or 4 Basalt Monolith, Voltaic Key is really good, but in 3x can conflict too much with Chalice of the Void; this needs to be tested.
I'll definitely try -1 City of Traitors for Eldrazi Temple/Cavern of Souls; the good think about the Eldrazi is that their abilities works on cast, so they still do most of the work even if countered.
Another change i thought about was to put the Trinisphere in the sideboard and put Warping Wail in the main; they are good versus combo like the sphere but can be useful, maindeck, against other kind of decks too.
All is Dust is Eldrazi too, so with 3x Eldrazi Temple it's value can go up.

MGB
02-04-2016, 02:27 PM
I'm having success recently (on cockatrice) with this version of Legend MUD based on the list posted by MGB on 3674 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23388-Deck-MUD-(Metalworker)&p=927537&viewfull=1#post927537)

Legend MUD

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
2 Eldrazi Temple
1 Eye of Ugin

2 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
3 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Karn Liberated

4 Basalt Monolith
4 Grim Monolith
3 Thran Dynamo
2 Hedron Archive
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Coercive Portal
1 Staff of Nin
2 Voltaic Key

Sideboard:
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Warping Wail
2 All is Dust

MUD is together with OmniTell the deck i played mostly in Legacy, from the first version without Post lands to MUD Post to now, and i must say i really like this Legend version.
In a few words, we have in this version less mana problems and the ability to draw cards, the two historical problems of the MUD archetype.
We doesn't play creatures either (outside Eldrazi), and this many times is a big advantage.

About my list, what i'm not sure about and possible changes to test with are:
-1 City of Traitors +1 Eldrazi Temple? is 4 City of Traitors too much?
-1 Karn Liberated it's one of the card i side out the most, Ugin is in most situations the best planeswalker to play
-1 Basalt Monolith +1 Voltaic Key could improve the mana artifacts suite, and is Basalth Monolith better than Worn Powerstone? the answer is probably yes but i never tested the stone

From the side, is All is Dust really needed? i side it in a ton, but Warping Wail is awesome too, so maybe -2 All is Dust +2 Warping Wail (for Delver expecially) can work

I'm quite happy with the rest of the deck and i suggest MUD lovers to try it.

I tried using Voltaic Key but I didn't like the situations where you'd have Chalice @ 1 and you couldn't play the key. Often times you want Chalice @ 1 ASAP so you can't really hold back on Chalice until you get Key in play, so they are at odds with one another. The other option is to cut Chalice, but I would never want to do that in Legacy because Chalice @ 1 is just too powerful.

Karn Liberated is sometimes underwhelming but it gives you the ability to stack exile effects (along with Ugin's exiling, and Ulamog's exiling). It also comes down very early because 7 is a key mana cost in this deck (2 sol lands + mana rock). You could theoretically just play Wurmcoils instead of Karn, and it would give you better game against decks like RUG Delver, BUG Delver, and other creature based decks without Swords to Plowshares, but my goal with this deck is I want to destroy Miracles in G1 as often as possible. Wurmcoil Engine is downright bad against Miracles because they have so many ways to just exile it, whereas Karn (when it resolves) against Miracles is a deadly threat to them. I guess it depends on what matchups you want to focus on. If you don't mind Miracles as much, or you feel confident in your ability to beat Miracles with the rest of the deck, then maybe you could just play wurmcoils instead of Karn, or maybe 1-2 Karn instead of 3. I just personally like Karn's ability to threaten Miracles and other decks that wouldn't really mind Wurmcoil (like Storm decks that don't care about Wurmcoil attacking as much as Karn exiling their lands or their hand).

Re: Worn Powerstone vs. Basalt Monolith - Powerstone lets you activate it more times without paying untap costs, so it can be better in some situations, but it also taps for 1 mana less. Often times that 1 mana can be the difference between playing Ugin next turn or having to wait. So I tend to err toward the side of "more mana" because I just want to play the bombs as early as possible. However, I haven't tested Powerstone much, so if you test Powerstone in place of Basalt Monolith please tell me how you feel about it.

Gnagno
02-08-2016, 12:07 PM
I have a question for everybody: how do yoy handle a monastery mentor resolved?
I noticed it's a big threat for MUD and even if you have chalice at 1 and/or trinisphere miracles is able to make an army of monk quiete easily.
In my sideboard I have two Ugins but I feel only two cards it's not enough. I don't like ratchet bomb because it destroys the tokens but not mentor and I wouldn't play all is dust just for this MU (for aggro decks I have spatial contortion and warping wail).

potatodavid
02-08-2016, 12:23 PM
I have a question for everybody: how do yoy handle a monastery mentor resolved?
I noticed it's a big threat for MUD and even if you have chalice at 1 and/or trinisphere miracles is able to make an army of monk quiete easily.
In my sideboard I have two Ugins but I feel only two cards it's not enough. I don't like ratchet bomb because it destroys the tokens but not mentor and I wouldn't play all is dust just for this MU (for aggro decks I have spatial contortion and warping wail).

Dat ugin activation

Stuart
02-08-2016, 12:50 PM
I have a question for everybody: how do yoy handle a monastery mentor resolved?
I noticed it's a big threat for MUD and even if you have chalice at 1 and/or trinisphere miracles is able to make an army of monk quiete easily.
In my sideboard I have two Ugins but I feel only two cards it's not enough. I don't like ratchet bomb because it destroys the tokens but not mentor and I wouldn't play all is dust just for this MU (for aggro decks I have spatial contortion and warping wail).

As David said, Ugin is a tremendous way of dealing with Mentor (and pretty much every permanent in Legacy). I know you find Ugin to be win-more, but I'd strongly recommend running him maindeck.

Besides that, I think proactivity is your best bet. Chalice, Lodestone, Trinisphere, Sundering Titan and Wasteland all limit your opponent's ability to either cast spells and refill their hands, both of which Mentor is fairly reliant on. If you can stick a Trinisphere and a big threat (Wurmcoil is great, here), you should be able to race a Mentor.

I'm also not a fan of All Is Dust (I don't like that you can't Forgemaster it) or Ratchet Bomb (too slow/awkward). I play 1 Contagion Engine in my sideboard, and love it. You can tutor it with Forgemaster, and it's pretty reasonable to hardcast. Most people just don't see it coming.

Gnagno
02-08-2016, 01:52 PM
As David said, Ugin is a tremendous way of dealing with Mentor (and pretty much every permanent in Legacy). I know you find Ugin to be win-more, but I'd strongly recommend running him maindeck.

Besides that, I think proactivity is your best bet. Chalice, Lodestone, Trinisphere, Sundering Titan and Wasteland all limit your opponent's ability to either cast spells and refill their hands, both of which Mentor is fairly reliant on. If you can stick a Trinisphere and a big threat (Wurmcoil is great, here), you should be able to race a Mentor.

I'm also not a fan of All Is Dust (I don't like that you can't Forgemaster it) or Ratchet Bomb (too slow/awkward). I play 1 Contagion Engine in my sideboard, and love it. You can tutor it with Forgemaster, and it's pretty reasonable to hardcast. Most people just don't see it coming.

I don't play wastelands because it happened almost never to use. I rather have 4 mishra's factory to deal with planeswalker. I let my 3 sundering titans to destroy my opponents manabase :laugh:
About contagion engine it's a solution but for now I added another spatial contortion; il board in 2 of them so I will be able to manage mentor and I'll have another removal vs aggro in a cheaper way.

MGB
02-08-2016, 07:48 PM
If you're not playing at least 2 Ugin the Spirit Dragon in any MUD deck, you're insane.

movingtonewao
02-08-2016, 10:23 PM
I'm seconding (thirding?) this. One of the catalysts for me taking this deck seriously was when ugin showed up. Before that it was just big dudes but finally we have a board wipe and a wincon all rolled into one.

Gnagno
02-09-2016, 05:12 AM
I don't feel comfortable with Ugin MD because there are a lot of MU where it stays in your hand doing nothing in 80% scenario.
For example delver deck and d&t (which are a large piece of the metagame) doesn't allow you to land Ugin due to daze, pierce, wasteland, rishadan, thalia and revoker unless they make 4 orrible topdecks/they are noobs.
It's not good against combo, too.
It gives the best against miracle and decks that lets you build your manabase, which are few.

If you feel brave enough to say: "who cares, I'm always able to cast it" it's good to play it MD beacus it's simply too much for your opponent.
I'm coward, or simply unlucky, because I got stroken every time by two wastelands and I barely add 6 mana for wurmcoil :cry:

Stuart
02-09-2016, 03:06 PM
If you feel brave enough to say: "who cares, I'm always able to cast it" it's good to play it MD beacus it's simply too much for your opponent.
I'm coward, or simply unlucky, because I got stroken every time by two wastelands and I barely add 6 mana for wurmcoil :cry:

I can appreciate that feeling, and it's possible that you just play in a meta that's overloaded with Wastelands. If that's the case, MUD might not be the right deck for you: Sundering Titan, Platinum Emperion, Blightsteel, and Ugin are the most powerful cards in our deck, and they all cost 8+. When you play MUD, I think you have to be brave and admit to yourself that sometimes, you just won't get to cast your cards. However, it's easy to think pessimistically and assume that the worst-case scenario will always happen. If that was true, no one would ever play Miracles for fear of running into 12-Post :laugh:

I'll admit that Ugin is slightly harder to cast than the others, because he can't be protected by Cavern of Souls and can't be tutored with Forgemaster. However, when you do cast him, he's the most devastating card in the deck. I think that's worth the tradeoff.

Griselpuff
02-09-2016, 04:14 PM
For people who play Forgemaster, what are your thoughts on Sundering Titan as a 1 of vs. Delver? It's either him, or the 4th Forgemaster as the final cut for me.

Bobmans
02-09-2016, 04:19 PM
For people who play Forgemaster, what are your thoughts on Sundering Titan as a 1 of vs. Delver? It's either him, or the 4th Forgemaster as the final cut for me.
S.Titan is strong vs Delver. It can cut them completely out of the game and the body is to much to handle. Obviously BUG with Liliana is interesting here.
I wouldn't cut Forgemaster nr 4. You want as much consistency as possible.

Silverflame
02-09-2016, 05:53 PM
I don't feel comfortable with Ugin MD because there are a lot of MU where it stays in your hand doing nothing in 80% scenario.
For example delver deck and d&t (which are a large piece of the metagame) doesn't allow you to land Ugin due to daze, pierce, wasteland, rishadan, thalia and revoker unless they make 4 orrible topdecks/they are noobs.
It's not good against combo, too.
It gives the best against miracle and decks that lets you build your manabase, which are few.

If you feel brave enough to say: "who cares, I'm always able to cast it" it's good to play it MD beacus it's simply too much for your opponent.
I'm coward, or simply unlucky, because I got stroken every time by two wastelands and I barely add 6 mana for wurmcoil :cry:

as Stuart say, maybe there is too much wastelands on your meta. Try reducing your curve, mainboarding crucible of worlds + 4 wastelands or switch to a more combo-oriented build.

Gnagno
02-09-2016, 08:47 PM
Actually this is the list I'm playing and I found myself able to fight almost every MU, they are not all easy but at least I don't have an autoloss from any common played strategy.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Mishra's Factory
2 City of Traitors

3 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
1 Lightning Greaves
3 Trinisphere
1 Staff of Domination
1 Spine of Ish Sah

3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Stell Hellkite
4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan

3 Warping Wail


SB

3 Maze of Ith
2 Grafdigger's cage
2 Spatial Contortion
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Duplicant
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Sundering Titan

I don't play the classical fatties even if I run kuldotha to keep my manabase as thin as possible.
Kuldotha is there because it fills the curve and gives you good tricks if your opponent lets you untap it.
As I wrote some posts before, when I'm able to activate kuldotha I search wurmocoil against Delver/ BG decks, Sundering against Miracles/ controls and against combo it may vary from lodestone to sundering to spine depending on the development of the board and the MU. I almost never wanted to put blightsteel into play because many deck have answers to it (liliana, swords to plowshares, simply comboing you) and if you are low to life, which happens quite often, they attack, then chump block with a a X/2 and then kill you with a final attack, so I cut it for the third warping wail.
I don't like crucible because when you face wasteland you face most of the time deathrite shaman too and it exiles all the lands you lost due to wastelands.

keys
02-10-2016, 05:51 AM
I like how low to the ground you are with this build, but I would want the 4th Mishra's Factory, probably instead of the 4th Cavern.

Gnagno
02-10-2016, 07:00 AM
I like how low to the ground you are with this build, but I would want the 4th Mishra's Factory, probably instead of the 4th Cavern.

Even if the strenght of mishra's factory grows the more copies you run, I still rather the fourth cavern.
Cavern is the best way to evade counters and I want to see it the most possible times I can, even because there are 3-4 calls for it.
Mishras fills the 3 meta-slots lands: you may play wasteland, or crystal vein, or buried ruins or whichever you want depending what seems most useful to you.
Happening very rarely to wasteland someone because you're mana hungrier than opponents, being a biter, sacrificing for liliana and kuldotha mishra won the slots.
Lands and infect are the only MU I like wasteland, but since I added maze of ith I found infect MU playable even without wasteland (I dislike using percentages, let's say we have our tools and he has his tools), and against lands I simply drop hope and sign 0-2 :laugh:

Barsoom
02-18-2016, 06:13 PM
So after two more weeks of testing of Legend MUD on Cockatrice, here my latest list and considerations.

Legend MUD

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Eye of Ugin

2 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
3 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Karn Liberated

3 Basalt Monolith
4 Grim Monolith
3 Thran Dynamo
2 Hedron Archive
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Coercive Portal
1 Staff of Nin
3 Voltaic Key
3 Warping Wail

Sideboard:
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Trinisphere
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Spatial Contortion
2 Ensnaring Bridge

Not that many changes from the previous list for main, but important changes on the sideboard.

Main
-1 City of Traitors + 1 Eldrazi Temple. Good change, for a short time i tryed Cavern of Souls here, but the big advantage of our eldrazi creatures is that they are useful even if countered, so the cavern wasn't adding anything; better to maximize the mana to cast them fast, even if i don't think there is space for the 4° Temple.
-1 Basalt Monolith +1 Voltaic Key. Still testing this change so not sure about it, what i'm sure about is that 2x Keys are absolutely necessary, the mana rocks works much better with key in play, and the interaction with Chalice of the Void happens way less that one may thing, most of all because chalice will be countered most of the time. The pros of playing key are much more than the cons of playing it together with chalice.
-Swap of Trinisphere and Warping Wail from main/side. I found that i like more the versatility of Wail maindeck compared to Trinisphere, but this may change with the meta you play of course.

Side
4 Slots against graveyard decks like Reanimator, Dredge and so on, this is the minimum i think, i tryed with more but needed space for something else.
2 Spatial Contortion. This deck get hosed BADLY by Gaddock Teeg and Delver of Secret beatdown, so we need an answer for them. Just Warping Wail for Delver is not enought, most of the time if they play Delver turn 1 they will ride it to the victory countering everything you play, so we need a cheap removal that's always useful. Notable targets are also Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Deathrite Shaman and Dark Confidant that Weil answer already.
2 Ensnaring Bridge. This is for Sneak and Show, Marit Lage and drum roll Eldrazi!! i played against them sometimes and their beatdown is really fast for the deck, and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is useless so you cannot reset at turn 4/5. This is another card against Reanimator too. I'm open for other suggestions for this slot. Probably Karakas could be good here too, and the original list on TC Decks was playing 3x of it main if remember correctly. The problem is that it does nothing against Eldrazi, but maybe i'm too much worried about that deck.

All in all i keep liking the deck more than the previous Metalworker/Kuldotha Forgemaster version, mostly because i have no creatures to kill and that's a vulnerable angle in less.
This version is maybe less explosive (even if, without them attacking your mana, you will cast Karn/Ugin/Ulamog at turn 3-4-5 almost every game) but more consistent and less vulnerable.
MVP is of course Coercive Portal, if they let it survive it will win the game by itself.

Gnagno
02-18-2016, 08:23 PM
Have you ever tried crumbling sanctuary? I think it could be good in this version of MUD because you make 5 mana really fast.
Aggro decks need to deal arond 35-40 more damages while with ulamog's ability you will attack for 30!

Badwise
02-19-2016, 11:06 AM
Thoughts on the price spikes for grim monolith and city of traitors? They're at 45 and 85 respectively, I am wondering if they'll return to their original prices, they're the last two playsets I am missing !!!

(nameless one)
02-19-2016, 04:17 PM
Thoughts on the price spikes for grim monolith and city of traitors? They're at 45 and 85 respectively, I am wondering if they'll return to their original prices, they're the last two playsets I am missing !!!

I don't think they'll go down since they're both on the Reserve List

MGB
02-19-2016, 04:49 PM
They're only two of the most important cards in any MUD-style deck. You kinda shoulda had playsets of Cities/Monoliths for as long as you've been playing Legacy, tbh.

L10
02-19-2016, 05:03 PM
Sorry to hear, Badwise. I hate this hobby sometimes. My suggestion is to buy the cards now because it will only get more expensive.

Fry
02-20-2016, 02:51 AM
I think that there is potential for the cards to go down in value again, but if they do I don't that they will by much. Since they are both on the reserved list there will never be another printing of them in any capacity. Also that City is used in several other non MUD decks that wax and wane in popularity (ie: Sneak and Show) that they should be the primary of targets of your remaining playsets. I love the game, but sometimes it hits the wallet a little hard.

nedleeds
02-20-2016, 02:08 PM
Any of you not buying the reserved list cards for a given deck first are just asking to get destroyed.

http://magiccards.info/query?q=%28t%3A%22artifact%22+or+t%3A%22land%22%29+f%3Alegacy+is%3Areserved&v=olist&s=cname (http://magiccards.info/query?q=%28t%3A%22artifact%22+or+t%3A%22land%22%29+is%3Areserved&v=olist&s=cname)

all reserved list artifacts and land that are legacy legal.

battousai555
02-20-2016, 05:04 PM
Hey, Infect player here looking for another deck to change things up. I really dig the idea of Legend MUD, and have proxied something that's between the mtgtop8 list and MGB's list in order to figure out if I want to invest in it. Anyway, I was wondering if anyone could give me sideboarding advice. I know it would be a lot of work to give me a sideboard plan for all the tier 1 decks, but any advice would be greatly appreciated (even if it's super generalized, like "against Delver decks I tend to take out...").

Edit: sorry, that was pretty nebulous. This is the list:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Karakas
3 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin

3 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Karn Liberated

4 Basalt Monolith
4 Grim Monolith
1 Hedron Archive
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Coercive Portal
2 Voltaic Key

SB:
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere
1 Duplicant

MGB
02-20-2016, 05:15 PM
Hey, Infect player here looking for another deck to change things up. I really dig the idea of Legend MUD, and have proxied something that's between the mtgtop8 list and MGB's list in order to figure out if I want to invest in it. Anyway, I was wondering if anyone could give me sideboarding advice. I know it would be a lot of work to give me a sideboard plan for all the tier 1 decks, but any advice would be greatly appreciated (even if it's super generalized, like "against Delver decks I tend to take out...").

Edit: sorry, that was pretty nebulous. This is the list:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Karakas
3 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin

3 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Karn Liberated

4 Basalt Monolith
4 Grim Monolith
1 Hedron Archive
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Coercive Portal
2 Voltaic Key

SB:
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere
1 Duplicant

So in my experience, the list is basically designed to crush Miracles and most other fair decks MD. So essentially your sideboard is designed to shore up the unfair match-ups. Golem+Revoker and any additional Trinispheres or Thorn of Amethysts obviously come in vs. Storm and Elves and the like. I usually take out some of the mana rocks and maybe an Eldrazi or two and a Karn. You don't want to cut out all of your top-end because then you end up drawing too few threats to seal the deal.

Crypt needs little explanation - you bring it in vs Dredge and Reanimator and probably Lands as well, although it might not do enough in that matchup.

I personally have had some success playing Tsabo's Web in my MUD sideboards. It's excellent vs. Lands and Death n Taxes, and it cantrips so it's actually never really dead any time you board it in. Because Port+Wasteland decks like Lands and Death n Taxes are the natural enemy of this type of deck, I'd highly recommend trying out Web as an answer.

battousai555
02-20-2016, 06:02 PM
So in my experience, the list is basically designed to crush Miracles and most other fair decks MD. So essentially your sideboard is designed to shore up the unfair match-ups. Golem+Revoker and any additional Trinispheres or Thorn of Amethysts obviously come in vs. Storm and Elves and the like. I usually take out some of the mana rocks and maybe an Eldrazi or two and a Karn. You don't want to cut out all of your top-end because then you end up drawing too few threats to seal the deal.

Crypt needs little explanation - you bring it in vs Dredge and Reanimator and probably Lands as well, although it might not do enough in that matchup.

I personally have had some success playing Tsabo's Web in my MUD sideboards. It's excellent vs. Lands and Death n Taxes, and it cantrips so it's actually never really dead any time you board it in. Because Port+Wasteland decks like Lands and Death n Taxes are the natural enemy of this type of deck, I'd highly recommend trying out Web as an answer.
Thank you for the timely response! That makes a lot of sense. I think I'll stick with your amethyst plan instead of bridges, then. Any advice on deciding which mana rocks to take out? Like maybe against unfair decks that are trying to combo quickly maybe the Thran Dynamos are too slow? Also, thanks for posting your list here, dude. I think I'm going to have a lot of fun with this deck.

MGB
02-20-2016, 07:41 PM
Thank you for the timely response! That makes a lot of sense. I think I'll stick with your amethyst plan instead of bridges, then. Any advice on deciding which mana rocks to take out? Like maybe against unfair decks that are trying to combo quickly maybe the Thran Dynamos are too slow? Also, thanks for posting your list here, dude. I think I'm going to have a lot of fun with this deck.

I just like an extra 2 Thorns in the SB because it really seals the deal vs. Storm combo. I just hate losing to Storm, but Thorns *might* be overkill. I could still see playing Ensnaring Bridges if you have alot of Sneak'n'Show you expect to face, or this new Eldrazi Stompy deck becomes a big thing.

I don't have nearly enough play-testing time put in with this version to definitively state things about the sideboarding strategy or specific inclusions, to be honest. I just think that a general plan of "bring in a bunch of hate for the unfair stuff that doesn't scoop to Ugin/Karn/Eldrazi G1" seems like the right way to go, but beyond that we have to put more testing in with the list to truly determine what the proper build is.

I mean, really, in MUD, there are like a good 30+ cards you could realistically consider for the SB depending on what you plan to see alot of or what gives you the most trouble. Heck, this deck might even benefit from some kind of transformational Eldrazi SB with Thought-Knot Seers and beatdown, who knows?

battousai555
02-22-2016, 03:17 AM
I just like an extra 2 Thorns in the SB because it really seals the deal vs. Storm combo. I just hate losing to Storm, but Thorns *might* be overkill. I could still see playing Ensnaring Bridges if you have alot of Sneak'n'Show you expect to face, or this new Eldrazi Stompy deck becomes a big thing.

I don't have nearly enough play-testing time put in with this version to definitively state things about the sideboarding strategy or specific inclusions, to be honest. I just think that a general plan of "bring in a bunch of hate for the unfair stuff that doesn't scoop to Ugin/Karn/Eldrazi G1" seems like the right way to go, but beyond that we have to put more testing in with the list to truly determine what the proper build is.

I mean, really, in MUD, there are like a good 30+ cards you could realistically consider for the SB depending on what you plan to see alot of or what gives you the most trouble. Heck, this deck might even benefit from some kind of transformational Eldrazi SB with Thought-Knot Seers and beatdown, who knows?
Yeah, I'm definitely going to have to spend some time adjusting the SB to my meta. I finally got to test this deck out last night, and I gotta say...it's awesome! I already started ordering some of the pieces, lol. I played quite a few matches against Shardless, and I feel like the match-up is pretty even. Early discard combined with Liliana and/or Jace and Wasteland (although they only have 2) is still very lame, but Coercive Portal is absolutely bonkers at helping make comebacks from stunted beginnings. I still hate losing to variance, but it makes appreciate when I do drop the fatties and obliterate face even more.

On another note, how do you think this deck will fare if there's a surge of Eldrazi Aggro decks in my meta? I assume we should be favored because we can drop bombs consistently, but I can see us losing to explosive starts with the opponent OTP, like I've seen on YouTube....

MGB
02-22-2016, 07:33 AM
Yeah, I'm definitely going to have to spend some time adjusting the SB to my meta. I finally got to test this deck out last night, and I gotta say...it's awesome! I already started ordering some of the pieces, lol. I played quite a few matches against Shardless, and I feel like the match-up is pretty even. Early discard combined with Liliana and/or Jace and Wasteland (although they only have 2) is still very lame, but Coercive Portal is absolutely bonkers at helping make comebacks from stunted beginnings. I still hate losing to variance, but it makes appreciate when I do drop the fatties and obliterate face even more.

On another note, how do you think this deck will fare if there's a surge of Eldrazi Aggro decks in my meta? I assume we should be favored because we can drop bombs consistently, but I can see us losing to explosive starts with the opponent OTP, like I've seen on YouTube....

Eldrazi Aggro is a problem for this deck. Big problem. Eldrazi Aggro isn't affected by Chalice/Trinisphere much if at all; they apply quick pressure out of the gates; they often play Wasteland; and their Thought-Knot Seer is highly disruptive.

Honestly, I was hoping the Eldrazi deck wouldn't gain traction in Legacy because I felt that this Legend MUD list had such good game against the rest of the field, but if we expect to see alot of Eldrazi Aggro in Legacy now, Legend MUD will have to be re-configured.

Here's my thought: Ensnaring Bridge 2x MD and 2x SB. Eldrazi Aggro can't beat a resolved Ensnaring Bridge, and Bridge is randomly good against lots of other decks as well. Playing 2/2 Bridge split should basically make Sneak'n'Show a bye, and it will help fight troublesome matchups like Elves. And it's not even dead against Miracles - it can stop the Entreat kill condition and sometimes even Mentor!

Bridge is actually the perfect control card for this deck because this deck is fundamentally a control deck. Unlike traditional Metalworker MUD, it's not trying to win by attacking with its own creatures - its building inevitability with its planeswalkers and legendary creature ETB effects. With Bridge in play, you don't really care necessarily if you can't attack with Ulamog and/or Kozilek as long as you can eventually destroy their board by recurring Ulamog or dropping Ugins and Karns.

The only question now is what to take out for the Bridges. My first thought is -1 Hedron Archive and -1 Kozilek, +2 Ensnaring Bridge in MD, and -2 Thorn of Amethyst, +2 Ensnaring Bridge in SB.

nedleeds
02-22-2016, 09:37 AM
Ensnaring Bridge is one of the best cards against MUD.

Barsoom
02-22-2016, 10:59 AM
Ensnaring Bridge is one of the best cards against MUD.

Not against Legend MUD. I'm playing 2x Bridge myself as you can see from my list few posts above; if Eldrazi Stompy really becomes a real Legacy deck the number probably should be upped as MGB said.

Rikter
02-22-2016, 10:59 AM
ELDRAZI MU REPORT/WRAPING WAIL EVAL

ELDRAZI

So I played in a 96 man Legacy event this weekend (5-2, 19th place and breakered out of the money). I got the Eldrazi matchup in the middle rounds (there was a fair amount of Eldrazi decks on the day actually, from what I saw wandering the room).

I was anticipating that people were going to be playing Eldrazi, especially with the 20k coming up so I made sure I had stuff in the board. Against Eldrazi I boarded into 2x Ensnaring Bridge and 2x Torpor Orb, 2x Phyrexian Revoker, 2x Ratchet bombs taking out 2x Ugin the Spirit Dragon, 2x Trinisphere, 4x Chalice.

Explanations:
+2 Ensnaring Bridge because unless they are playing Kozilek the great distortion (he was) they just can't get it off the table
+2 Torpor Orb because taking away ETB triggers does wonders for slowing down Eldrazi.

+2 revoker Because the list I saw was running Jitte and this is a card that can cause a lot of problems if it gets going
+2 Ratchet bomb, because it clears out Endless One and other random hate

-4 Chalice because it's less than stellar against them
-2 Ugin because even with orbs I would rather have sundering titan to block than a reusable lightning bolt that can't actually sweep the board and doesn't do anything to handle their big guys. Some people disagreed with me, but I feel like having the blocker is better.
-2 trinisphere because even though it can do work vs eye, but its only at its best on the first turn or two.

Results:
Torpor Orb did so much work, it really does a lot to slow them down. Eldrazi Mimic is pretty shitty when it's just a vanilla 2/1, and with orb out thought knot seer is just a 4/4 for 4 that lets you draw a card when you kill it

Bridge was amazing, its a hard card for them to deal with

Revoker was only OK, but jitte is just such a pain in the ass if it gets going that I had to bring them in. I don't know if he boarded out of jitte, I didn't see it in the SB games

Ratchet bomb was another card that did pretty well. It wasn't insane, but the card has utility and I liked it.

I ended up winning the match. I can see how this would be a tough matchup sometimes, since the deck can go wide and it can hit hard, fast. In the future I may consider bringing in the dismembers as well. Had I not seen jitte I probably would have brought in 2 dismember instead of 2 revokers.

WARPING WAIL

Warping Wail was awesome all day. It was relevant every time I cast it, and I used all three modes throughout the day, a summary of which is below:

1) Won round 1 against esper control by warping wail end of turn for a scion, allowing me to cast sundering titan on my turn, locking him out of the game

2) Won against burn by stabilizing at 1 life, and wailing his lethal rift bolt before winning

3) Won a game against eldrazi by EOT warping wail on phyrexian revoker that was locking down my forgemaster

4) Won a game against eldrazi where 2x warping wails shut him off of his first two mimics and defused a potentially explosive board state

5) Won against bug delver by warping wail EOT on deathrite followed by wasteland. Lodestone sealed the deal.

There were other instances of wailing random creatures, but the above lines all contributed big time to winning games.

In my limited run, I consider warping wail the truth. It may seem like wail is a little narrow vs burn, but I have nothing in the board for them anyways and its not dead. Wail did a lot of work, I don't think I ever boarded it out. I currently play 2 main, and I think I am fine with that for now since I don't have another slot. As it is I made room for these two by taking out 2x trinisphere. Some people may think this is crazy, but trinisphere is typically my first card out, and is a terrible top deck. The versatility of wail across a large portion of the field is worth it I think.

Stuart
02-22-2016, 11:22 AM
Nice work, Rikter! Glad to see we can handle Eldrazi, even if it's ugly.

#

I've been taking a break from MUD to play some Enchantress (and doing horribly with it, I might add :tongue:). It might just be my meta, but it seems like there's a lot of midrange going around: I'm seeing lots of Jund, Shardless, Aggroloam, etc. Those are generally my least favorite matchups, as they're just super ugly and grindy. Are other people experiencing an influx of midrange, and if so, any tips on handling it with MUD? My store's doing a 1K next month that I might play MUD in, so I want to get tuned up.

My thoughts so far:
- Ugin is an all-star in these games, so I'm trying a Karn in my sideboard as an extra planeswalker (who can get around Needle/Revoker naming Ugin). However, I'm also debating just adding an extra Ugin to either the main or board.
- Right now I run 2 Coercive Portal in the main, which is great against midrange. I was thinking of putting an extra 2 in the board. Thoughts?
- Crucible has been an underwhelming defensive tool for me, as Deathrite just eats the lands out of my graveyard before I can recur them. I think I want to leave it in the board, but only bring it in when I can use it aggressively.
- I've been running 2 Thorn of Amethyst that I was thinking of dropping for either Coercive Portal or Tsabo's Web. If I cut it, I'll still have 4 Lodestone, 4 Chalice, 4 Trinisphere, 2 Warping Wail, and 2 Tormod's as anti-storm tech. That seems sufficient, right?
- Generally speaking, it feels like midrange decks are very good at stopping our combo wins: they can Waste us off early mana, kill Metalworker via PFire, Abrupt Decay, etc, and they have lots of tools like Null Rod and Revoker to shut off Forgemaster. So my debate is whether I should board out some combo pieces (e.g. drop to 3 Metalworker, cut Staff, etc) and plan for the long game, or if that's just limiting one of MUD's great strengths.

For reference, my current list is:

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone
4 Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil
1 Emperion
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel
2 Ugin

4 Monolith
4 Chalice
3 Trinisphere
2 Coercive Portal
2 Grieves
1 Staff of Domination
1 Spine

4 Wasteland
4 Tomb
4 City
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
2 Cavern

1 Karn
1 Platinum Angel
1 Spine
1 Contagion Engine
1 Trinisphere
2 Crucible
2 Pithing Needle
2 Warping Wail
2 Thorn
2 Tormod's Crypt

battousai555
02-22-2016, 12:36 PM
Eldrazi Aggro is a problem for this deck. Big problem. Eldrazi Aggro isn't affected by Chalice/Trinisphere much if at all; they apply quick pressure out of the gates; they often play Wasteland; and their Thought-Knot Seer is highly disruptive.

Honestly, I was hoping the Eldrazi deck wouldn't gain traction in Legacy because I felt that this Legend MUD list had such good game against the rest of the field, but if we expect to see alot of Eldrazi Aggro in Legacy now, Legend MUD will have to be re-configured.

Here's my thought: Ensnaring Bridge 2x MD and 2x SB. Eldrazi Aggro can't beat a resolved Ensnaring Bridge, and Bridge is randomly good against lots of other decks as well. Playing 2/2 Bridge split should basically make Sneak'n'Show a bye, and it will help fight troublesome matchups like Elves. And it's not even dead against Miracles - it can stop the Entreat kill condition and sometimes even Mentor!

Bridge is actually the perfect control card for this deck because this deck is fundamentally a control deck. Unlike traditional Metalworker MUD, it's not trying to win by attacking with its own creatures - its building inevitability with its planeswalkers and legendary creature ETB effects. With Bridge in play, you don't really care necessarily if you can't attack with Ulamog and/or Kozilek as long as you can eventually destroy their board by recurring Ulamog or dropping Ugins and Karns.

The only question now is what to take out for the Bridges. My first thought is -1 Hedron Archive and -1 Kozilek, +2 Ensnaring Bridge in MD, and -2 Thorn of Amethyst, +2 Ensnaring Bridge in SB.
That seems like a good plan! Hedron definitely feels like one of our weaker cards, and I can see Kozilek being fine as a 1-of. I think the thorns were a bit much anyway, so that makes sense, too. How do you think the overall meta is going to shift to combat Eldrazi Aggro? I assume the number of Storm players is going to decrease significantly, but I'm not sure what else.

Sent from my XT1097 using Tapatalk

nedleeds
02-22-2016, 02:40 PM
Not against Legend MUD. I'm playing 2x Bridge myself as you can see from my list few posts above; if Eldrazi Stompy really becomes a real Legacy deck the number probably should be upped as MGB said.

Sure, but the deck is Metalworker Utter Domination. In fact the word Metalworker is in the thread title. Your list looks fun but it's not Metalworker.

For actual MUD the hands that beat you involve the lower curve cards, Mimic and TKS. I think that Metalworkers mid and late game are superior. Torpor Orb shuts both of these down. A typical MUD build loses out on Titan and Duplicant playing Orb. Titan is something I'd board out vs. another stompy deck anyway. Duplicant can be replaced. Orb is also good vs. elves and SFM decks. It randomly hates on some niche decks like Goblins as well, which ... is real bad with Orb out.

Rikter
02-22-2016, 03:30 PM
Sure, but the deck is Metalworker Utter Domination. In fact the word Metalworker is in the thread title. Your list looks fun but it's not Metalworker.

For actual MUD the hands that beat you involve the lower curve cards, Mimic and TKS. I think that Metalworkers mid and late game are superior. Torpor Orb shuts both of these down. A typical MUD build loses out on Titan and Duplicant playing Orb. Titan is something I'd board out vs. another stompy deck anyway. Duplicant can be replaced. Orb is also good vs. elves and SFM decks. It randomly hates on some niche decks like Goblins as well, which ... is real bad with Orb out.

I've had to play goblins with mud twice before, I was really happy to have had contagion clasp and dismember in the board, because as much as I am not particularly impressed with the deck, if you let them connect with a turn 1 lackey things can get out of hand. I wouldn't have really played torpor orb prior to eldrazi being a deck, I chose to attack those decks differently, but now that eldrazi is a thing for the short term at least I'm happy to play orb for them and have some splash hate.

Barsoom
02-22-2016, 03:32 PM
Sure, but the deck is Metalworker Utter Domination. In fact the word Metalworker is in the thread title. Your list looks fun but it's not Metalworker.

Not really, first of all the name of the deck MUD originated from "mud", the english word for "sludge", "mire" and so on.
So the so called "Legend MUD" version with no creatures and more mana ramps etc is MUD like the Metalworker version too.
Not every MUD deck must play Metalworker to be called MUD, in Vintage too there are MUD decks, with and without Metalworker.
If you mean "create another topic cause this one is just for MUD with Metalworker" that's would make little sense imho and we should discussion all variations of MUD (english word) in one thread.

nedleeds
02-22-2016, 03:45 PM
The topic header actually says Metalworker. There is a reason it is MUD, and not Mud. You aren't playing 3ball, Wasteland, Metalworker, Golem or any artifact creatures really and you are playing 1 drops. Your deck is probably awesome but it deserves its own thread. It shares as much with 12 post as it does with metalworker utter domination.

Bobmans
02-23-2016, 12:52 AM
Legends MUD is MUD. It belongs here.
MUD is not short for anything.
MUD just stands for wet dirt/earth, etc.
What is your point?

battousai555
02-23-2016, 01:31 AM
The topic header actually says Metalworker. There is a reason it is MUD, and not Mud. You aren't playing 3ball, Wasteland, Metalworker, Golem or any artifact creatures really and you are playing 1 drops. Your deck is probably awesome but it deserves its own thread. It shares as much with 12 post as it does with metalworker utter domination.
Legend MUD does play Trinisphere, we're playing Lodestone Golems and Phyrexian Revokers in the SB, and we're playing 0-2 Voltaic Keys. If you think this deck shares as much in common with 12 post as it does traditional MUD, I implore you to take a harder look at 12 Post lists (see: crop rotation, GSZ, candelabra, expedition map, divining top, brainstorm).

On another note, "MUD" does not stand for "Metalworker Utter Domination." Source: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/5930_The_Complete_MUD_Primer_Part_1_Development.html