[Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

[Rikter]

Legend MUD does play Trinisphere, we're playing Lodestone Golems and Phyrexian Revokers in the SB, and we're playing 0-2 Voltaic Keys. If you think this deck shares as much in common with 12 post as it does traditional MUD, I implore you to take a harder look at 12 Post lists (see: crop rotation, GSZ, candelabra, expedition map, divining top, brainstorm).

On another note, "MUD" does not stand for "Metalworker Utter Domination." Source: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/5930_The_Complete_MUD_Primer_Part_1_Development.html


To be fair, this forum is explicitly titled MUD **Metalworker**, so regardless of the origin of the name, which i thought was a reference to the old frame colors, the forum sort of clears things up through its title.

Personally I dont think that list with all the eldrazi and planeswalkers is a MUD list, but I think we can all agree it is in no way shape or form a metalworker list, meaning it is outside the acope of this thread, you know, the mud METALWORKER thread.

[Rikter]

Not really, first of all the name of the deck MUD originated from "mud", the english word for "sludge", "mire" and so on.
So the so called "Legend MUD" version with no creatures and more mana ramps etc is MUD like the Metalworker version too.
Not every MUD deck must play Metalworker to be called MUD, in Vintage too there are MUD decks, with and without Metalworker.
If you mean "create another topic cause this one is just for MUD with Metalworker" that's would make little sense imho and we should discussion all variations of MUD (english word) in one thread.


There are no such thing as MUD decks in vintage. We do have Shops and stacks though. I can understand wanting to discuss decks like the one above in this thread, but his deck plays much differently than a metalworker deck.

Personally i think that the thread title should be MUD (metalworker/forgemaster), because a forgemaster deck that doesnt run metalworker would still be playing basically the same game as me...but that list just isnt.

[bruizar]

Can we please stop worrying about what does or does not constitute MUD or the origin of its name? It adds nothing to the discussion especially if people are referring to vintage incorrectly (@Rikter: The name MUD was a vintage deck name upon which the name for the legacy port was based. Eventually Workshop Aggro become the name for what used to be MUD and the same will happen in legacy imo). Posting a list without Metalworker that is otherwise similar in strategy to MUD in a separate thread just fragments the discussion. IF Metalworker isn't the right call at the moment, then people should be willing to cut Metalworker and still post their list in this thread.

What matters is the mana-base and the reliance on colorless artifact beaters which will more often than not result in lists utilizing Metalworker, Lodestone Golem, Chalice of the Void and Phyrexian Revoker. My definition of MUD is a deck with explosive draws from unfair mana accelerants with disruptive colorless artifact beaters using ancient tombs and city of traitors. Whether you need to tinker with Forgemaster, tap Grim Monolith or run first turn Lightning Greaves into second turn Metalworkers is ultimately a meta/preference issue.

Like it or not, we will probably see Thought-Knot Seer end up in the deck at some point, which slightly dilutes the power of Metalworker (and the requirement to run him instead given that 4 mana is easily reachable). This deck will evolve or die to Eldrazis.


On another note, "MUD" does not stand for "Metalworker Utter Domination." Source: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/5930_The_Complete_MUD_Primer_Part_1_Development.html

This part of magic history is unknown to me. I actually played during this time in Castricum (which is 20 minutes from my house).

I do not remember the list as it was mentioned in the thread. I do remember playing against Grafted Skullcaps and Goblin Welders and later on Trinispheres/Barbarian rings in 2004 in Castricum. It was also around this time that some other notable vintage decks were made here. My favorite deck during that time was Leviat (also dutch design; a control deck running Bazaar of Baghdad + Mana Drain + Replenish). Very insightful article though.

[Airwave]

This deck will evolve or die to Eldrazis.

Or just beat it.

[Rikter]

What matters is the mana-base and the reliance on colorless artifact beaters which will more often than not result in lists utilizing Metalworker, Lodestone Golem, Chalice of the Void and Phyrexian Revoker. My definition of MUD is a deck with explosive draws from unfair mana accelerants with disruptive colorless artifact beaters using ancient tombs and city of traitors. Whether you need to tinker with Forgemaster, tap Grim Monolith or run first turn Lightning Greaves into second turn Metalworkers is ultimately a meta/preference issue.

Like it or not, we will probably see Thought-Knot Seer end up in the deck at some point, which slightly dilutes the power of Metalworker (and the requirement to run him instead given that 4 mana is easily reachable). This deck will evolve or die to Eldrazis.



So I highlited some important points in your post...please note the absence of any of these in the Legendary "MUD" build. A deck that uses planeswalkers and eldrazi as it's sole main deck win cons is not MUD. I get that it also has an artifact win con in Staff of Nin, but a singleton staff does not make a MUD list. I don't know what you call that list, but it aint MUD. This isn't really the forum for turboing out large Eldrazi and Ugin...his play lines, deck composition, sideboarding decisions are really not in any way shape or form in line with an actual MUD list.

That list is really a budget post list as far as I am concerned, where you use a ton of cheaper mana rocks to approximate the effects of candelabra, and the 12 post players would probably be better equipped to provide feedback, because his deck does NOT play like a Metalworker deck.

"Whether you need to tinker with Forgemaster, tap Grim Monolith or run first turn Lightning Greaves into second turn Metalworkers is ultimately a meta/preference issue."

The decks that most closely adhere to the general form of Metalworker MUD will have the ability to do ALL of these things, with the starting 60, and the choice of which one to do is not a meta preference at all, its based on the MU at hand. The meta preference comes into play with the things we decide to ramp out and tinker for.

Ultimately, I'm not opposed to the guy posting his list here and asking for help, because there are sooooome similarities with our decks, but not many as far as I am concerned, and there may be a better forum for him to post those questions.

I dont think Metalworker MUD is going to be running thought-knot seer, but that's just my opinion. And stock Metalworker has the tools it needs to beat Eldrazi. You might want to alter the sideboard a little bit, specifically bridge and torpor orb, or with particular forgemaster targets but I personally am not worried about Eldrazi.

[L10]

I have been playing with three copies TKS in my Metalworker build, and it's house. It not being an artifact is countered by its natural low CMC. And a 4 CMC 4/4 disruptive beater is, as far I am concerned, a bargain. Though, it does get a little more expensive with Lodestone Golem.

[Rikter]

I have been playing with three copies TKS in my Metalworker build, and it's house. It not being an artifact is countered by its natural low CMC. And a 4 CMC 4/4 disruptive beater is, as far I am concerned, a bargain. Though, it does get a little more expensive with Lodestone Golem.

I saw an Eldrazi deck playing LSG alongside Thought-Knot, I thought it was a little odd. He won the match, but that doesn't mean much. Personally Im not sure what I would take out for though-knot, in my list including him would probably require taking out either lodestone golem or my last two 3spheres, staff and lightning greaves. What did you take out for him?

For the time being, I feel like I can't afford any more slots to things that don't power metalworker and can't be searched up by or used to power Forgemaster and Id rather have Ugin and Wail than thought-knot.

[bruizar]

txt

I agree with you but lets try to be inclusive / supportive as much as we can. The more love for our colorless cards the better, even if they are eldrazis sometimes.

[L10]

I am still playing with 'TurboMUD'.

Lands (21)
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Crystal Vein

Mana (11)
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
3 Mindstone

Threats (17)
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus

Locks (6)
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere

Utility (5)
3 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Nin
1 Phyrexian Metamorph

[Stuart]

I agree with you but lets try to be inclusive / supportive as much as we can. The more love for our colorless cards the better, even if they are eldrazis sometimes.

While I agree with you, I find myself getting defensive about Eldrazi, what with the echo chamber constantly saying Eldrazi Stompy is going to take over Legay and replace MUD :wink:. Still, it's interesting to see when/how the new colorless space monsters are insinuating themselves into artifact territory. I'll be intrigued to see if TSK, etc become MUD staples in the longterm.



Decklist


Really interesting list - thanks for posting this. How explosive are your starts? I'm assuming pretty explosive if you call it TurboMUD, but it just looks light on lands that produce 2+ mana.

[MGB]

The topic header actually says Metalworker. There is a reason it is MUD, and not Mud. You aren't playing 3ball, Wasteland, Metalworker, Golem or any artifact creatures really and you are playing 1 drops. Your deck is probably awesome but it deserves its own thread. It shares as much with 12 post as it does with metalworker utter domination.

The thread title is poorly chosen. MUD doesn't live and die by Metalworker but more by its Sol-Lands, Grim Monoliths, Chalices, and Trinispheres. The thread topic should be changed to more accurately reflect the broad varieties of artifact-based prison decks that play Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, and Grim Monolith.

For example, on TheManaDrain.com they just lump all of these types of decks (the Vintage versions) under the subforum "Shops decks", because, again, it's the manabase that matters. Here in Legacy we obviously don't have Workshop, but nevertheless any discussion of artifact-based decks with Tombs and Cities should be funneled into this thread, regardless of whether or not those decks play Metalworker.

[L10]

Hi Stuart, back when I had Voltaic Key, I can go off on Turn 1 and 2. With this deck, I can go off on Turn 2 to 3. Lightning Greaves is still MVP. Mind Stone is good as a colorless source for TSK under Blood Moon, mana fixing in early game, and draw in late game. I prefer it much over Hedron Archive. Also, my mana curve is much better now.

I played a similar deck at GP Seattle last year. Most of it still applies.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/3sdoem/gp_seattle_report_turbomud/

[Silverflame]

I was watching Ary Lax playing the Eldrazi stompy and apart from him misplaying almost every match, the deck is very strong and played close to stompy mud, but with better manabase. I won't discuss the deck here as it is not mud, but will play it a bit for testing (as soon as they ban eye and I'm able to get the set for a viable price).

[MGB]

I was watching Ary Lax playing the Eldrazi stompy and apart from him misplaying almost every match, the deck is very strong and played close to stompy mud, but with better manabase. I won't discuss the deck here as it is not mud, but will play it a bit for testing (as soon as they ban eye and I'm able to get the set for a viable price).

It's a solid deck but it's still playing fair with creature combat. I don't think it's significantly better than anything MUD variants are trying to do, tbh.

[Rikter]

It's a solid deck but it's still playing fair with creature combat. I don't think it's significantly better than anything MUD variants are trying to do, tbh.

I agree, I would go so far as to say I don't think it's better, period. Playing cards like simian spirit guide sucks, and overall I think the lines of play are much more simplistic.

[bruizar]

I can see both Thought-Knot Seer and Reality Smasher enter the MUD stompy list. If Metalworker is still played, the deck probably needs Darksteel Citadels and/or maybe Mox Opal to increase its artifact count. Otherwise, 4 Eldrazi Temple might enter the list (no eye of ugin) to get the best beat down eldrazis in play soon, and to cancel out the impact of Lodestone Golem on the Eldrazis.

As an aside: the Meandeck Stompy list that first used Goblin Welder and Kuldotha Forgemaster may become relevant next block depending on whether or not good red cards with the Investigate mechanic are printed.

[kingtk3]

I can see both Thought-Knot Seer and Reality Smasher enter the MUD stompy list. If Metalworker is still played, the deck probably needs Darksteel Citadels and/or maybe Mox Opal to increase its artifact count. Otherwise, 4 Eldrazi Temple might enter the list (no eye of ugin) to get the best beat down eldrazis in play soon, and to cancel out the impact of Lodestone Golem on the Eldrazis.

As an aside: the Meandeck Stompy list that first used Goblin Welder and Kuldotha Forgemaster may become relevant next block depending on whether or not good red cards with the Investigate mechanic are printed.

I'm not playing much magic recently, but I've got the intention to make and hybrid MUD/eldrazi stompy (i've already got a list but it's quite unrefined), because I too think tha Seer and Smasher are very good.

What's the Investigate mechanic?

[bruizar]

I'm not playing much magic recently, but I've got the intention to make and hybrid MUD/eldrazi stompy (i've already got a list but it's quite unrefined), because I too think tha Seer and Smasher are very good.

What's the Investigate mechanic?

It's an ability that's attached to spells (Instant in the spoiler) that reads:
Investigate (Put a colorless Clue artifact token onto the battlefield with "2: Sacrifice this artifact: Draw a card."

Welder Fodder on a spell! I'm hoping for a Faithless Looting with Investigate on it, something like this would be perfect:

Fiery Interrogation
R
Instant
Draw 2 cards, then discard 2 cards
Investigate

[MGB]

Ok, MUD fans... I need your help.

I'm planning entering SCG Philly this weekend with Legend MUD.

Because of the expectation of high numbers of Eldrazi decks in the field, I emergency-bought 4 Ensnaring Bridges this past week, and now I'm planning to slot them into the deck for this weekend.

The question/dilemma I have here is: what quantitites do I play them in? 2 MD and 2 SB? 3 MD and 1 SB? All 4 MD? I feel as if 2MD/2SB is the "safe" choice that lets me hedge my bet, but it might not be strong enough G1 against Eldrazi and other creature decks. On the other hand, if I go full-4 MD, it might lose me a game against Miracles or something where I needed less redudant Bridges and more gas.

Additionally, right now for the 2MD/2SB plan I decided to go -1 Hedron Archive -1 Kozilek +2 Ensnaring Bridge MD. If I go 4 Bridge MD, I will probably have to take out some amount of Coercive Portal and/or more mana rocks. What would you take out if you are adding Bridges to the MD?


Here's the list as it currently stands with the 2MD/2SB Bridge plan:


4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Karakas
4 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin

3 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
4 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Karn Liberated

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Basalt Monolith
4 Grim Monolith
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Coercive Portal
2 Ensnaring Bridge

SB:
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere
2 Tsabo's Web

[Stuart]

Hey MGB, your list looks solid. However, have you considered running 2-3 Wurmcoil instead of Ensnaring Bridge? It outclasses Mimic, TKS, and Reality Smasher. Likewise, deathtouch helps it deal with the bigger threats they drop, and lifelink would buy you time. Seems like a good way to clog up the Eldrazi board without potentially throwing off your gameplan in other matches. Of course, maybe CMC 6 is too slow for that, but I'd think you could ramp to 6 no sweat.

[MGB]

Hey MGB, your list looks solid. However, have you considered running 2-3 Wurmcoil instead of Ensnaring Bridge? It outclasses Mimic, TKS, and Reality Smasher. Likewise, deathtouch helps it deal with the bigger threats they drop, and lifelink would buy you time. Seems like a good way to clog up the Eldrazi board without potentially throwing off your gameplan in other matches. Of course, maybe CMC 6 is too slow for that, but I'd think you could ramp to 6 no sweat.

Wurmcoil is a no-go in this list. It's more of a creature for the Metalworker/Forgemaster/Greaves version. I've played Wurmcoil in the Legend list before and it lost me too many games against Miracles. My #1 priority first and foremost is to beat Miracles as easily as possible.

So what's your opinion on Ensnaring Bridge numbers, Stuart? 2MD/2SB split? 4MD? 3MD/1SB?

[ZEROorDIE]

Wurmcoil is a no-go in this list. It's more of a creature for the Metalworker/Forgemaster/Greaves version. I've played Wurmcoil in the Legend list before and it lost me too many games against Miracles. My #1 priority first and foremost is to beat Miracles as easily as possible.

So what's your opinion on Ensnaring Bridge numbers, Stuart? 2MD/2SB split? 4MD? 3MD/1SB?

If you really want to shore up the eldrazi matchup without hurting the miracles match up much, you could relegate an ugin to the side for a third bridge since ugin will do almost nothing against eldrazi and is mostly a win more against miracles.

[Drake0525]

Hi everyone! I am looking to get into the MUD archetype, I've finally started collecting the pieces for it - and recently expedited the process in the interest of getting the Reserve List staples before the prices got too high. I still have a ways to go before I can assemble, but I figured it isn't too early to start doing my homework. After looking over the last few pages of posts, I have a few questions:

- As a classicist, it would be my preference to build the Metalworker variant, but it looks from the chatter that the Legendary MUD variant might be more consistent in the current metagame?

- Ensnaring Bridge seems to be a pretty reliable answer to the Eldrazi Aggro build. Is Ensnaring Bridge at all playable in classic MUD? Do I even need it if I run 4x Wurmcoil Engines?

- The Legendary MUD list looks very powerful indeed, the 12 mana rocks seems like a lot though. Has the Crucible of Worlds/Mox Diamond package been tested in that shell?

Any answers you guys can give me would be great. Thanks in advance!

[Airwave]

Hi everyone! I am looking to get into the MUD archetype, I've finally started collecting the pieces for it - and recently expedited the process in the interest of getting the Reserve List staples before the prices got too high. I still have a ways to go before I can assemble, but I figured it isn't too early to start doing my homework. After looking over the last few pages of posts, I have a few questions:

- As a classicist, it would be my preference to build the Metalworker variant, but it looks from the chatter that the Legendary MUD variant might be more consistent in the current metagame?

- Ensnaring Bridge seems to be a pretty reliable answer to the Eldrazi Aggro build. Is Ensnaring Bridge at all playable in classic MUD? Do I even need it if I run 4x Wurmcoil Engines?

- The Legendary MUD list looks very powerful indeed, the 12 mana rocks seems like a lot though. Has the Crucible of Worlds/Mox Diamond package been tested in that shell?

Any answers you guys can give me would be great. Thanks in advance!

This might be another list you could consider (or something similar of course :smile:)

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23388-Deck-MUD-%28Metalworker%29&p=923786&viewfull=1#post923786

[ns407]

there was a mud list that made day 2...anyone from here?

[Stuart]

Wurmcoil is a no-go in this list. It's more of a creature for the Metalworker/Forgemaster/Greaves version. I've played Wurmcoil in the Legend list before and it lost me too many games against Miracles. My #1 priority first and foremost is to beat Miracles as easily as possible.

So what's your opinion on Ensnaring Bridge numbers, Stuart? 2MD/2SB split? 4MD? 3MD/1SB?

Sorry for the delayed reply, MGB. Yeah, I think 2/2 is the right way to go on Bridge. Hope it went OK for ya!


Hi everyone! I am looking to get into the MUD archetype, I've finally started collecting the pieces for it - and recently expedited the process in the interest of getting the Reserve List staples before the prices got too high. I still have a ways to go before I can assemble, but I figured it isn't too early to start doing my homework. After looking over the last few pages of posts, I have a few questions:

- As a classicist, it would be my preference to build the Metalworker variant, but it looks from the chatter that the Legendary MUD variant might be more consistent in the current metagame?

- Ensnaring Bridge seems to be a pretty reliable answer to the Eldrazi Aggro build. Is Ensnaring Bridge at all playable in classic MUD? Do I even need it if I run 4x Wurmcoil Engines?

- The Legendary MUD list looks very powerful indeed, the 12 mana rocks seems like a lot though. Has the Crucible of Worlds/Mox Diamond package been tested in that shell?

Any answers you guys can give me would be great. Thanks in advance!

Welcome to brown! Tip #1: buy your City of Traitors ASAP. Thanks to Eldrazi Stompy and Eternal Masters, they will keep going up.

I haven't played Legends MUD, but my impression is that it beats up the midrange/creature decks running around right now. However, I would suggest starting off with traditional MUD: it might not be as good in this meta, but it's probably more flexible in the longterm.

I wouldn't personally run Ensnaring Bridge in traditional MUD, but it's not out of the question. Ugin lets you play over your own Bridges, while Spine/Forgemaster give you a way of getting rid of your Bridge when you're ready to swing. A few days ago I'd speculated that Wurmcoil would be good anti-Eldrazi tech without messing up our build, but I dunno if anyone's really played that out or not (you can see MGB decided against it).

[rlesko]

I agree, I would go so far as to say I don't think it's better, period. Playing cards like simian spirit guide sucks, and overall I think the lines of play are much more simplistic.

I'm not sure if you're confusing the modern list with the legacy one but I haven't seen SSG pop up in any legacy lists. I'm also going to disagree with you here, I think its strictly better than MUD. It has the same disruption elements by playing chalice / trini / thorn but can also attack the opponents hand via TKS and has threats that are harder to remove (smasher is going to be card disadvantage). It gets to play 16 sol lands vs 8 that MUD gets and seems more resilient. Don't get me wrong here, I hate the stupid new overpowered eldrazi but I don't understand why you think MUD is on an even level with it? Also, it had 4 eldrazi lists in top 16 this past week I think (2 in top 8 for sure)? In at least 2 years I'm not sure if I can remember a top 4 finish for a MUD deck at an SCG Open.

[Stuart]

I'm not sure if you're confusing the modern list with the legacy one but I haven't seen SSG pop up in any legacy lists. I'm also going to disagree with you here, I think its strictly better than MUD. It has the same disruption elements by playing chalice / trini / thorn but can also attack the opponents hand via TKS and has threats that are harder to remove (smasher is going to be card disadvantage). It gets to play 16 sol lands vs 8 that MUD gets and seems more resilient. Don't get me wrong here, I hate the stupid new overpowered eldrazi but I don't understand why you think MUD is on an even level with it? Also, it had 4 eldrazi lists in top 16 this past week I think (2 in top 8 for sure)? In at least 2 years I'm not sure if I can remember a top 4 finish for a MUD deck at an SCG Open.

"Strictly better" is pretty hyperbolic, isn't it? I mean, it's absolutely possible Eldrazi is better and will be a Tier 1 deck. However, I disagree that its prison capabilities are stronger (hand disruption isn't always better than sphere effects, and Thorn/3Sphere interact weirdly with the Eldrazi lands). Likewise, TKS is harder to remove if they're casting Bolts, but Lodestone works just as well and is a faster clock in many matchups. Reality Smasher is good and sets opponents up for card disadvantage . . . just like Wurmcoil does. Eldrazi has some busted early attacks with Mimic, while MUD can just win the game turn 2 or 3 with Metalworker and Forgemaster! Etc etc.

Re. SCG finishes: clearly Eldrazi is good, as their conversion from Day 2 to top 8 rocked. However, I doubt MUD has ever had anywhere near the turnout Eldrazi had. If more people played MUD, it would Top 8/4 tournaments more often. It's possible MUD hasn't gotten as much play because it's perceived as a weaker deck, but I think it's more likely that Eldrazi ran rampant at SCG Philly because of the huge amount of buzz around the deck and how easily it ported from Modern.

Again, I'm not arguing MUD is better, and I absolutely see the power of running more consistently and lower to the ground. However, I don't think you can say Eldrazi is just better than MUD in every single way. That would be like arguing that MUD is strictly better than Dragon Stompy, or that ANT is strictly better than TES: it might ultimately be stronger, but they both have their advantages.

I've said before that I get defensive about this, which is just because I'm attached to MUD; Eldrazi is looking more and more like a deck to beat, and it's probably great for the format to have a real stompy/aggro option. I just want to drive home to people that MUD is still a viable deck to play, and that it'd be a shame to see it dry up because "Eldrazi is better."

[HSCK]

I also think in a meta with lots of Eldrazi, MUD with its Wurmcoils and other large and hard to interact with creatures seems like a pretty good choice against Eldrazi.

[keys]

I also think in a meta with lots of Eldrazi, MUD with its Wurmcoils and other large and hard to interact with creatures seems like a pretty good choice against Eldrazi.

Platinum Emperion is a pretty good way to beat Eldrazi.

[Drake0525]

Welcome to brown! Tip #1: buy your City of Traitors ASAP. Thanks to Eldrazi Stompy and Eternal Masters, they will keep going up.

I haven't played Legends MUD, but my impression is that it beats up the midrange/creature decks running around right now. However, I would suggest starting off with traditional MUD: it might not be as good in this meta, but it's probably more flexible in the longterm.

I wouldn't personally run Ensnaring Bridge in traditional MUD, but it's not out of the question. Ugin lets you play over your own Bridges, while Spine/Forgemaster give you a way of getting rid of your Bridge when you're ready to swing. A few days ago I'd speculated that Wurmcoil would be good anti-Eldrazi tech without messing up our build, but I dunno if anyone's really played that out or not (you can see MGB decided against it).
Thank you! Yes, I was all over that right after Eternal Masters was announced. Fortunately, I got the necessary cards before prices jumped too high. I got 2 City of Traitors last year at around $60, the other 2 I got at $80 - right before it jumped to over $100. I also have the Grim Monoliths, Metalworkers, and Mox Diamonds (just in case I care to give Stax a try down the line).

I'm working on getting the other pieces. I'm not sure waiting on Eternal Masters to reprint cards is the right move, so I'll be completing my playset of Chalice of the Void this weekend.

I think I will be taking your advice and trying out the classic build for now - I do have the Metalworkers after all. I also agree, Wurmcoil Engine is an excellent place to start with the Eldrazi match-up, that'll probably be a 4-of. One of the other posters mentioned Platinum Emperion - that seems pretty good too. Classic MUD has tools to fight those decks, no doubt about that.

Thanks very much for responding so quickly!

[Airwave]

Thank you! Yes, I was all over that right after Eternal Masters was announced. Fortunately, I got the necessary cards before prices jumped too high. I got 2 City of Traitors last year at around $60, the other 2 I got at $80 - right before it jumped to over $100. I also have the Grim Monoliths, Metalworkers, and Mox Diamonds (just in case I care to give Stax a try down the line).

I'm working on getting the other pieces. I'm not sure waiting on Eternal Masters to reprint cards is the right move, so I'll be completing my playset of Chalice of the Void this weekend.

I think I will be taking your advice and trying out the classic build for now - I do have the Metalworkers after all. I also agree, Wurmcoil Engine is an excellent place to start with the Eldrazi match-up, that'll probably be a 4-of. One of the other posters mentioned Platinum Emperion - that seems pretty good too. Classic MUD has tools to fight those decks, no doubt about that.

Thanks very much for responding so quickly!

I'm not sure, but, could a possible/probable ban in modern on Eldrazi take down the price of Chalice of the Void in the near future? I guess some people will let go of these if this might happen.

On the other hand, a possible ban in modern might turn more people to legacy with their Eldrazi decks. Hmm.... interesting times :cool:

[MGB]

After SCG Philly, and not doing well with MUD, and watching Eldrazi beat all the blue decks with relative ease, I'm kind of wondering if playing traditional MUD is even worthwhile. Is Eldrazi Stompy just a better MUD at this point? It might be.

[rlesko]

After SCG Philly, and not doing well with MUD, and watching Eldrazi beat all the blue decks with relative ease, I'm kind of wondering if playing traditional MUD is even worthwhile. Is Eldrazi Stompy just a better MUD at this point? It might be.

In my opinion yes but I've only played MUD casually over the years as a change of pace deck.

[potatodavid]

After SCG Philly, and not doing well with MUD, and watching Eldrazi beat all the blue decks with relative ease, I'm kind of wondering if playing traditional MUD is even worthwhile. Is Eldrazi Stompy just a better MUD at this point? It might be.

This isn't as black and white as you make it sound.

Is Eldrazi a better deck than MUD. Short answer, No.

Long answer, these are 2 COMPLETELY different decks. MUD is trying to Lock a homie out of the game with Chalice/3 Ball and Cast big titans like Ugin and Blightsteel on the cheap. The Eldrazi deck is trying to Drop a challice and trying to aggro someone within the first couple turns. What i've discovered is the Eldrazi deck is a quicker deck than MUD and although they seem similar because they play chalice & sol lands. Each deck has its own MU's that they're extremely good at. Someone drops a Blood Moon against mud and life goes on. Someone drops a blood moon against Eldrazi and we're going to game 2. Consistency has always been MUD's biggest weakness and the eldrazi deck appears to be a little more consistent against FOW decks because Caverns aren't naming, Golem, Construct... etc.

Honestly, i think either deck is just fine, but once the meta shifts to deal with the eldrazi decks more, you'll see another uptick in MUD's popularity.

[Stuart]

After SCG Philly, and not doing well with MUD, and watching Eldrazi beat all the blue decks with relative ease, I'm kind of wondering if playing traditional MUD is even worthwhile. Is Eldrazi Stompy just a better MUD at this point? It might be.

I shared my opinions about this on last page, so I guess I won't post them again. In short, though, I agree with Potatodavid that:
1) there are still reasons to play MUD,
2) you have to pick the deck that appeals to you, and
3) it might be beneficial to wait for the dust to settle.

That said, I do have some concerns that with Eldrazi becoming a real contender, there will be a lot of hate floating around that will weaken us, too.

Also, I thought you were on the Legends build at SCG?

[Airwave]

I shared my opinions about this on last page, so I guess I won't post them again. In short, though, I agree with Potatodavid that:
1) there are still reasons to play MUD,
2) you have to pick the deck that appeals to you, and
3) it might be beneficial to wait for the dust to settle.

That said, I do have some concerns that with Eldrazi becoming a real contender, there will be a lot of hate floating around that will weaken us, too.

Also, I thought you were on the Legends build at SCG?

I'm not sure about the hate. They are silver, we are brown :wink:

[L10]

Comparing Eldrazi to MUD is a bit disingenuous because they are inherently different decks. Heck, even in this MUD thread, I can think of a dozen inherently different builds. From Fry’s Welder shenanigans to Airwave’s Ensnaring Bridge + Bottled Cloister control strategy to bruizar’s Godo build to Greg Price’s 12 Post build (most common). All of which are fairly non-linear artifact-based ramp decks. All of which revolves around to abuse one card: Metalworker, the card that separates us from our sister decks: 12-Post and Nic Fit. This is also why MUD Stax and Steel Stompy have their own separate threads, the lack of need or want for Metalworker.

Eldrazi Stompy is more in line with other prison stompy decks, such as Dragon Stompy, Faerie Stompy, or Angel Stompy. These are decks that wants to soft-lock their opponents and kill them quickly with threats before their opponent can react or recover. The only MUD build that is a fair comparison to Eldrazi Stompy is Fropper’s MUD Strompy build. Of the prison stompy decks, I do think Eldrazi Stompy is currently the best. The reason is because Eldrazi Stompy do not rely on mana rocks or fast mana to play their threats quickly, which means they have more live draws. Eldrazi decks have bigger, better, faster threats compared to the other stompy decks. Eye of Ugin in particular is what pushes the deck over the edge. By itself, Eye of Ugin often produces anywhere from two to six mana a turn, and more with Urborg in play. It can even search for more threats when out of gas.

If you want to play a prison stompy deck, or a deck that is most similar to Aggro Shops of Vintage, I think Eldrazi Stompy is the clear winner. If you want to play a ramp deck that has a better mid-to-late game, a potential explosive early game, and potential backbreaking silver bullets, then Metalworker is a better fit.

[MGB]

Ok, let me rephrase the question:

Is Eldrazi Aggro the better Chalice of the Void / Ancient Tomb deck in the format right now?

Because the #1 reason to play MUD was simply to play Chalice of the Void + Ancient Tomb. It just so happened that MUD, up til this point, was probably the best Chalice of the Void + Ancient Tomb deck. Now we have to ask ourselves, if we want to play a Chalice of the Void + Ancient Tomb deck, if just playing Eldrazi is better than playing MUD's motley assortment of creatures.

[l33twash0r]

Maybe Stax is the right build for this meta?

[Drake0525]

Maybe Stax is the right build for this meta?
That actually did occur to me. They have a lot of stuff going on that looks like it would punish the Eldrazi decks - such as Crucible of Worlds, Ensnaring Bridge, Rishadan Port, Smokestack.

Since I'm just getting started with my shiny new Sol Lands, I might be too new to this type of deck to test Stax out properly. Of course, if Stax does prove effective against Eldrazi, the next question would be how effective is Stax against the rest of the field?

[Griselpuff]

Hey all,

Bob Huang here. I played MUD at SCG Philly and went a disappointing 3-3. Before that though, I cashed 4 consecutive tournaments with "Portal MUD"

I had two lists:

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Vesuva
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Duplicant
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere
2 Coercive Portal
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Platinum Emperion
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 4 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Contagion Engine
SB: 2 Coercive Portal

2 Steel Hellkite
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Coercive Portal
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Trinisphere
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Wasteland
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Warping Wail
1 Batterskull
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 2 Karakas
SB: 4 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Sundering Titan
SB: 1 Coercive Portal

I had great results beating the top tier decks (Miracles, Shardless, D&T, ANT) but the metagame has shifted and people are beginning to play cards like Hurkyl's Recall so I am off the deck. Just wanted to share in case people want to try my lists. Portal is the real deal, it single-handedly beats up on grindy decks. Delver match-ups are iffy, but a Wurmcoil is usually enough to win or buy enough time to get another stupid idiot down. Eldrazi match-up is also iffy, they can TKS your pay-off card and kill you quick, but a resolved Wurmcoil is usually enough there too.

[MGB]

akatsuki, Did you try the Legend MUD list that plays 4 Coercive Portal MD and is less vulnerable to Hurkyl's Recall and spot removal? If you like Coercive Portal, that's probably the list that uses it best.

[Fry]

#1 reason to play MUD was simply to play Chalice of the Void + Ancient Tomb. It just so happened that MUD, up til this point, was probably the best Chalice of the Void + Ancient Tomb deck. Now we have to ask ourselves, if we want to play a Chalice of the Void + Ancient Tomb deck, if just playing Eldrazi is better than playing MUD's motley assortment of creatures.

That has never been a reason to play MUD, and never should be the reason. The reason should be to do degenerate things, Chalice just happens to help that goal come to fruition.

There are other decks that use Sol Lands and Chalice of the Void other than MUD and the new Eldrazi deck, and have been for many years.

If I was to pick up MUD for the next little while I would not be playing a comboesque version because TKS can just wreck an otherwise amazing hand. A Stompy version would be my choice with the redundancy of hulking hunks of metal bashing face. I would still probably use my Darettis though (likely with 2-3 Myr Battlesphere), I love them a lot and they just do so much. I love it when cards are their own combo. For the time being though I am thinking of letting MUD sit for a while and work with my D&T and IT decks, I have a feeling Mangara is getting good again (I love decks with tricks)...

[Stuart]

Before that though, I cashed 4 consecutive tournaments with "Portal MUD"

Thanks for chiming in, Bob! I didn't expect to see you here - I think of you as a Delver player, for some reason.

Portal is indeed the real deal, and the rest of your list looks cool: just slightly lower to the ground, with a strong manabase. Have you had any problems with the 3 CoT/3 Vesuva split? Those two tend to interact poorly for me . . .


That has never been a reason to play MUD, and never should be the reason. The reason should be to do degenerate things, Chalice just happens to help that goal come to fruition.

There are other decks that use Sol Lands and Chalice of the Void other than MUD and the new Eldrazi deck, and have been for many years.

If I was to pick up MUD for the next little while I would not be playing a comboesque version because TKS can just wreck an otherwise amazing hand. A Stompy version would be my choice with the redundancy of hulking hunks of metal bashing face. I would still probably use my Darettis though (likely with 2-3 Myr Battlesphere), I love them a lot and they just do so much. I love it when cards are their own combo. For the time being though I am thinking of letting MUD sit for a while and work with my D&T and IT decks, I have a feeling Mangara is getting good again (I love decks with tricks)...

Agreed re. Chalice. It's an amazing turn 1 play, but our plays get more and more ridiculous each subsequent turn.

I'm also letting MUD cool off until I see how this Eldrazi situation shakes out: I don't want to play against Eldrazi-hate, and there might be some lessons to learn about how to improve our decks. Personally, I'm playing Enchantress in the meantime.

[Silverflame]

Hey all,

Bob Huang here. I played MUD at SCG Philly and went a disappointing 3-3. Before that though, I cashed 4 consecutive tournaments with "Portal MUD"

I had two lists:

Hello Bob, congrats on the results, it's great to see a highly experienced player take on the archetype. I see the first list is the same Romario is using and probably the best course to take on that meta, with a few modifications. I'm testing with +1-2 lightning greaves and more hellkites, but I'm still unsure on what to cut. My meta isn't infested with eldrazy (yet?) so it's hard to compare data, but it seens going slightly bigger than them might be efficient. For the recall, only the combo version can work, but as stuart said, the legends version is much more resilient to hat. You just toss your hand of mana rocks and cast ugin, karn or ulamog, sometimes more than once a turn. If they recall, you lose a turn, then do it again. The deck plays a bit different from traditional mud, some matches like D&t become much easier, but delver, specially grixis, go from iffy to terrible.

[Drake0525]

Chris Van Meter published an article to SCG about the Eldrazi deck. One of the things he mentioned was that the some of the Eldrazi decks had success using Jitte to break the mirror match. Is that something we in MUD might be able to try, maybe in the sideboard?

[Airwave]

Chris Van Meter published an article to SCG about the Eldrazi deck. One of the things he mentioned was that the some of the Eldrazi decks had success using Jitte to break the mirror match. Is that something we in MUD might be able to try, maybe in the sideboard?

I'm confident this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23388-Deck-MUD-%28Metalworker%29&p=920070&viewfull=1#post920070) list will crush them. But haven't tested it yet so I'm not sure. Next to that, I'm not entirely sure how it will perform in this "new" meta though. It's a litte fragile on Wasteland maybe, depending on available artifact boost mana. I guess this list needs one Crucible main nowadays.

[battousai555]

The deck plays a bit different from traditional mud, some matches like D&t become much easier, but delver, specially grixis, go from iffy to terrible.
I haven't played against grixis yet, but I did test Legend MUD against RUG and BUG delver, and they didn't feel at all "terrible." BUG actually felt more even to me than traditional MUD because Coercive Portal really helped me recover from getting my hand torn apart by Hymns. RUG still gets hit really hard by Chalice and Trinisphere, and if they're countering those, then they don't have much to stop mana rocks and bombs from being dropped. I need to do a lot more testing for sure, but I really like that our mana accelerators can't be bolted. I imagine U/W/R delver is probably considerably better because their swords to plowshares become much worse, but I recognize that it's probably the least popular delver deck. Maybe MGB can chime in with his delver experienced?

Edit: grammar

[darkgh0st]

That actually did occur to me. They have a lot of stuff going on that looks like it would punish the Eldrazi decks - such as Crucible of Worlds, Ensnaring Bridge, Rishadan Port, Smokestack.

Since I'm just getting started with my shiny new Sol Lands, I might be too new to this type of deck to test Stax out properly. Of course, if Stax does prove effective against Eldrazi, the next question would be how effective is Stax against the rest of the field?

Stax is still very effective. When you resolve maindeck E.Bridges game 1, a lot of decks just scoop. I played MUD instead of Stax tonight and definitely felt like I should have played stax. My next test is to incorporate Thought-Knot Seer into Stax for more disruption and quicker clock.

[L10]

Ok, let me rephrase the question:

Is Eldrazi Aggro the better Chalice of the Void / Ancient Tomb deck in the format right now?

Because the #1 reason to play MUD was simply to play Chalice of the Void + Ancient Tomb. It just so happened that MUD, up til this point, was probably the best Chalice of the Void + Ancient Tomb deck. Now we have to ask ourselves, if we want to play a Chalice of the Void + Ancient Tomb deck, if just playing Eldrazi is better than playing MUD's motley assortment of creatures.
Eldrazi is currently well positioned in the meta. I can't say the same three months from now when the meta shifts. Unfortunately, a lot of hate against Eldrazi is good against us too, even more so like Hurkyl's Recall. I think once the meta shifts back with more Burn, Painter, and Miracles, MUD will have the advantage. Eldrazi also just dies to Blood Moon and Moat against the control decks. At SCG Philly, I noticed that there was a ton of Delver decks of all varieties, and they just get crushed by Eldrazi. Canadian Delver simple can't beat Eldrazi (none of which made Day 2), but are great against us.


Hey all,

Bob Huang here. I played MUD at SCG Philly and went a disappointing 3-3. Before that though, I cashed 4 consecutive tournaments with "Portal MUD"

I had two lists:
Thanks for sharing your lists. One thing that I like about is the lower mana curve, which I had been advocating for a while. And yes, Portal is the real deal. I have several in my SB against the grindy match-ups. I still prefer my singleton Staff of Nin in the MD though. I going to be off of MUD for a little bit due to all the Eldrazi hate, which is also good against us.


Chris Van Meter published an article to SCG about the Eldrazi deck. One of the things he mentioned was that the some of the Eldrazi decks had success using Jitte to break the mirror match. Is that something we in MUD might be able to try, maybe in the sideboard?
Jitte is good. I have had success with it in MD and SB. In a meta filled with DnT, I think playing Jitte, Batterskull, and two Phyrexian Metamorph is also correct. But I don't think we need Jitte to beat Eldrazi. Our creature quality tends to be better. Even Lodestone Golem can trade with Reality Smasher.


I'm confident this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23388-Deck-MUD-%28Metalworker%29&p=920070&viewfull=1#post920070) list will crush them. But haven't tested it yet so I'm not sure. Next to that, I'm not entirely sure how it will perform in this "new" meta though. It's a litte fragile on Wasteland maybe, depending on available artifact boost mana. I guess this list needs one Crucible main nowadays.
Oh. I totally missed this list on my MtG break. Looks neat. I like that Cavern of Souls works for both Stoneforge Mystic and Goblins Welder.


Stax is still very effective. When you resolve maindeck E.Bridges game 1, a lot of decks just scoop. I played MUD instead of Stax tonight and definitely felt like I should have played stax. My next test is to incorporate Thought-Knot Seer into Stax for more disruption and quicker clock.
I like TKS in both my MUD and Stax builds. It works well in Stax to increases my threat density to 16 (LSG, Mutavault, Mishra's Factory). As much as I like Stax though, I think it loses to itself more often than most decks, even MUD, and is more susceptible to hate cards like RIP.

[Silverflame]

Wizards announced some changes on double face cards: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/shadows-over-innistrad-mechanics
For us, what changes is Ratchet Bomb/Powder Keg became worse against delver.

[darkgh0st]

Wizards announced some changes on double face cards: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/shadows-over-innistrad-mechanics
For us, what changes is Ratchet Bomb/Powder Keg became worse against delver.

Actually, I thought it was better in a way too. You can now blow up flipped and unflipped delvers, and deathrite at the same time.

[L10]

On the bright side, I no longer have to blow up Chalice vs Delver. It also catches Guide, Swiftspear, Mongoose, and DRS in the process. Sounds like a buff, aside from being a turn slower.

Edit: darkgh0st sniped me.

[Silverflame]

On the bright side, I no longer have to blow up Chalice vs Delver. It also catches Guide, Swiftspear, Mongoose, and DRS in the process. Sounds like a buff, aside from being a turn slower.

Edit: darkgh0st sniped me.

Maybe I'm just a pessi-mystic, a fatalistic, but I hadn't thought about that. I guess come in handy if the investigate mechanic ends up being useful too.
(I doubt anyone will get the obscure quote)

[Drake0525]

Hey everyone! I regret to report my metagame has, at last, been invaded by Eldrazi. Nasty deck. I actually won the round with Canadian Threshold, albeit by the skin of my teeth. While this doesn't change my desire to build MUD and make it work, I do have to taylor my build to handle the match-up. This is the decklist I'd like to try. I have nearly all the pieces I need.

4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
4x Wasteland
2x Vesuva
3x Cavern of Souls

4x Metalworker
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Wurmcoil Engine
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Sundering Titan

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Grim Monolith
3x Coercive Portal
2x Trinisphere
2x Relic of Progenitus

2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Sideboard:
2x Sphere of Resistance
1x Coercive Portal
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Gravedigger’s Cage
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Pithing Needle
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x Platinum Emperion
1x All is Dust

It is still a work in progress, to be sure. There were a lot of choices to make as far as what to include, especially in the sideboard. Torpor Orb would be interesting sideboard tech against a number of decks in the meta. Gravedigger's Cage, I chose because I can fetch it with Forgemaster, but I'm not sure running that would be preferable to Surgical Extraction. I also realize that Ensnaring Bridge might be considered unorthodox - that was discussed earlier in the thread - but it might be a necessary inclusion against Eldrazi.

I would appreciate any feedback or suggestions that may occur to you. Thanks guys!

[darkgh0st]

Not entirely MUD but: Colorless Stompy LGS FNM report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30490-Colorless-Stompy-3-0-split-LGS-FNM&p=937853)

[L10]

Drake0525, is the Relic at main to hedge against the Canadian match-up? If so, I'd rather have Ratchet Bomb. The scariest creature in their deck, after all, is Delver. Relic can be a bit narrow. If you meta is filled with Canadian and Eldrazi, it may be wise to swap Sundering Titan with Platinum Emperion, a card both decks can't deal with. Otherwise, your list is solid.

darkgh0st, I like you take on the stompy list. But with your list, I think having a number of Eldrazi Temples would be useful, especially since you have LSG.

[l33twash0r]

Drake0525, is the Relic at main to hedge against the Canadian match-up? If so, I'd rather have Ratchet Bomb. The scariest creature in their deck, after all, is Delver. Relic can be a bit narrow. If you meta is filled with Canadian and Eldrazi, it may be wise to swap Sundering Titan with Platinum Emperion, a card both decks can't deal with. Otherwise, your list is solid.

darkgh0st, I like you take on the stompy list. But with your list, I think having a number of Eldrazi Temples would be useful, especially since you have LSG.

Guess Eldrazi might deal with Emperion if they somehow manage to find 2x Dismember and have enough life to cast them.

[Fry]

Drake0525, is the Relic at main to hedge against the Canadian match-up? If so, I'd rather have Ratchet Bomb. The scariest creature in their deck, after all, is Delver. Relic can be a bit narrow. If you meta is filled with Canadian and Eldrazi, it may be wise to swap Sundering Titan with Platinum Emperion, a card both decks can't deal with. Otherwise, your list is solid.

To continue what L10 said, with how the flip cards will work in the near future, the Delver will be considered CMC 1 at all times, which means that Ratchet Bomb on 1 kills them as well as Mongoose.

[Drake0525]

Drake0525, is the Relic at main to hedge against the Canadian match-up? If so, I'd rather have Ratchet Bomb. The scariest creature in their deck, after all, is Delver. Relic can be a bit narrow. If you meta is filled with Canadian and Eldrazi, it may be wise to swap Sundering Titan with Platinum Emperion, a card both decks can't deal with. Otherwise, your list is solid.Actually, I hadn't really thought of the match-up with Canadian Threshold. I was thinking more in terms of the fact that Relic shuts down Tarmogoyf, Deathrite Shaman, Snapcaster Mage, Delve creatures like Gurmag Angler and Tasigur never get into the battlefield, Relic wrecks Reanimator and Dredge, and it should be problematic for Lands as well. I figured it was worth trying, but at this point, I really only have theory to go on. Does Ratchet Bomb have wider applications than that? If it does, than the right thing to do is maindeck the Ratchet Bombs and sideboard the Relics.

I appreciate the encouragement! There are a number of different Delver variants kicking around the meta at any given time. I will probably end up running Platinum Emperion in the main to deal with them.

[Fry]

Ratchet Bomb also works decently vs D&Ts, on 1 it blows up one of the most important cards... AEther Vial. At 2 It hits most of the decks powerhouses and Jitte, at 3 it hits Swords of X&Y, Mirran Crusader, Brimaz, and Vyrn Wingmare if they're in that list.

Works on a lot of Elves at 1

Can work on Burn to get Goblin Guide, Grim Lavamancer, but I wouldn't side it in, just if you happen to have 1 main board.

Can hit Miracles, but MUD already has a great match up there, though Mentor makes it a little faster than we like.

[darkgh0st]

darkgh0st, I like you take on the stompy list. But with your list, I think having a number of Eldrazi Temples would be useful, especially since you have LSG.

I think from my list, you can either go with the additional mana rocks or go with Eldrazi Temple. I went with the mana rocks for Blood Moon protection, potential extra explosiveness, and since Mishra's Factory and Rishadan Port have double purpose, I didn't mind drawing more mana than usual.

[Drake0525]

Hey guys. I have a couple of other questions about card choices.

- I felt when gold-fishing the deck that early turns tended to be inconsistent. If Chalice or Grim Monolith was in the opening hand, the deck hit the ground fast. The slower openings had no action at all in the first 2 turns. My mana curve isn't high relative to the other lists in the thread, so is that normal for the deck? Should I consider running some lower CMC cards?

- Following on from that first question, how good is Warping Wail in MUD? I've been seeing chatter about it, but not much with regards to this deck.

- Is there ever a situation where we would want expedition maps or something to give us extra consistency with land? It's been a long time since I've played without fetches.

[Stuart]

- I felt when gold-fishing the deck that early turns tended to be inconsistent. If Chalice or Grim Monolith was in the opening hand, the deck hit the ground fast. The slower openings had no action at all in the first 2 turns. My mana curve isn't high relative to the other lists in the thread, so is that normal for the deck? Should I consider running some lower CMC cards?

- Following on from that first question, how good is Warping Wail in MUD? I've been seeing chatter about it, but not much with regards to this deck.

- Is there ever a situation where we would want expedition maps or something to give us extra consistency with land? It's been a long time since I've played without fetches.

A few thoughts:
- Unless you're leading off with a Cloudpost, you usually should be making a turn 1 play. I'd say you should always have a turn 2 play. One of the deck's strength is controlling the flow of the game by repeatedly making must-answer plays; if you aren't making them, you're losing control of the game. However, I think this has less to do with tweaking your list and more to do with the hands you keep. Mulligans are immensely important in MUD, so don't be afraid to mull to 6 or 5 if that means you'll be making land drops and plays every turn. I'm experimenting with a personal mulligan rule, in which I won't keep a hand that can't make at least 3 mana between 2 lands; in theory, that positions me decently to always have plays.

- I haven't tried it, but it looks strong.

- I don't think so, as Map is the best colorless land tool and it gets countered by our Chalices. I'd highly recommend 2+ Coercive Portal to help with consistency.

[Rikter]

Hey guys. I have a couple of other questions about card choices.

- I felt when gold-fishing the deck that early turns tended to be inconsistent. If Chalice or Grim Monolith was in the opening hand, the deck hit the ground fast. The slower openings had no action at all in the first 2 turns. My mana curve isn't high relative to the other lists in the thread, so is that normal for the deck? Should I consider running some lower CMC cards?

- Following on from that first question, how good is Warping Wail in MUD? I've been seeing chatter about it, but not much with regards to this deck.

- Is there ever a situation where we would want expedition maps or something to give us extra consistency with land? It's been a long time since I've played without fetches.


1) You need to be doing something on the first 2 turns, assuming you dont get Wastelanded, against most decks.

2) I found warping wail to be great. The last tournament I played it in I wound up using all three modes. The card is never completely dead, and has a lot of utility. I think it's the real deal.

3) Anything at CMC 1, and that conflicts with chalice, is generally going to be a no-go. Only possible exception I could see is Grafdigger's cage out of the board.

[Wilkin]

Warping Wail is really good. I have 2 in the board. Boarded it in vs Death and Taxes. They have Cataclysm which can be devastating but also I killed Revokers at least a couple of times. I definitely recommend it. Yeah, being able to actually interact (well aside from Dismember) is awesome. Not sure if it's enough to fight Elves but certainly helps.

And I'm with Stuart, Coercive Portal is good too. I only play 1 main but I do also play 1 Staff of Nin and 2 Staff of Domination.


Did a little bit of testing yesterday at a weekly tournament. Combo'd twice with Metalworker + Staff of Domination. Also lived the dream vs Death and Taxes in a test match (we split in 4th round). Turn 1 Metalworker off of a Petal and Tomb. Turn 2. Ugin. Turn 3. Staff of Domination with 3 artifacts in hand. gg.

Do any of you play Dismember in board? I have a couple in the board as mostly for the Infect matchup which I find pretty bad for us.

[Rikter]

Warping Wail is really good. I have 2 in the board. Boarded it in vs Death and Taxes. They have Cataclysm which can be devastating but also I killed Revokers at least a couple of times. I definitely recommend it. Yeah, being able to actually interact (well aside from Dismember) is awesome. Not sure if it's enough to fight Elves but certainly helps.

And I'm with Stuart, Coercive Portal is good too. I only play 1 main but I do also play 1 Staff of Nin and 2 Staff of Domination.


Did a little bit of testing yesterday at a weekly tournament. Combo'd twice with Metalworker + Staff of Domination. Also lived the dream vs Death and Taxes in a test match (we split in 4th round). Turn 1 Metalworker off of a Petal and Tomb. Turn 2. Ugin. Turn 3. Staff of Domination with 3 artifacts in hand. gg.

Do any of you play Dismember in board? I have a couple in the board as mostly for the Infect matchup which I find pretty bad for us.


Wail is the truth against elves! You can't just rely on Warping Wail to get it done, but the card kills almost all their dudes, and counters all their critical spells. The 1 mana ramp dude is less likely to be used, but I can't even begin to tell you how many times I have lost to elves because I was 1 mana off of Ugin and had to pass back to them.

Dismember is definitely in my board (x3). I like it vs Infect, Death and Taxes and some BUG lists. Basically if the list doesn't interact with your life total or plays swords to plowshares as its removal then you want to have Dismember. It's not unusual for DnT to board out mom anyways, plus they will usually give you back some of your Dismember life because of swords.

[caprino]

What do you think of this list that I'm trying?

1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Karn Liberated
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Coercive Portal
2 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Vesuva
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Wasteland
side
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Steel Hellkite
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Orbs of Warding
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Duplicant
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge

[Rikter]

What do you think of this list that I'm trying?

1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Karn Liberated
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Coercive Portal
2 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Vesuva
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Wasteland
side
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Steel Hellkite
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Orbs of Warding
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Duplicant
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge

The main deck looks pretty reasonable to me, although I would choose to play Karn out of the board and Hellkite in the main. I bring Karn in to handle stuff like null rod or needle, in game 1 Ugin can take care of the usual suspects either via bolt or wipe, but Ugin isn't great against rod and needle, so thats where Karn comes in. Having Hellkite main is invaluable game 1 because he is a legitimate forgemaster target that can get rid of problem permanents and even wipe the other guys board.

The only other main deck change revolves around Platinum Emperion vs Platinum Angel. I used to run Emperion Main and Angel out of the board. Angel would swap for Emperion when I brought in Dismembers. I am too tight on space these days to carry both, and I am not taking Dismember out of the board, so Angel is main. Emperion is more resilient and harder to kill, but Angel is still good.

Regarding the sideboard, I see lists playing thorns...I've never been big on it. Between chalice, 3sphere, lodestone and revokers out of the board you should be good to handle most combo lists. What are the really in there for, storm? Revoker is solid hate. I play 3 revokers, they work fine vs storm and sneak and show, and they are really helpful vs Death and Taxes and Miracles.

Orbs of warding is another one...I could see it being better than Witchbane Orb vs Storm in case they try and Empty you, but my guess is this is primarily in for the burn matchup? If you're more concerned with Burn I would probably run the Witchbane because it is faster, but as a 1 of it's hard to find and in most cases you should be able to Forgemaster out something better anyways. I generally don't play cards specifically for storm, the MU is so lopsided that I think it is pointless to waste SB slots on things just for storm.

I prefer some number of Dismember in the sideboard, I have found it to be an invaluable card vs. infect, death and taxes, and now eldrazi.

The singleton Crucible I am less than impressed with. Any 1-of needs to be a legit Forgemaster target. I'm not sold on Crucible as that target. The rest looks fine, although I like to play Faerie Macabre instead of Crypt just because Reanimator can't counter it and you can play it turn 0. Crypt is a bit better vs lands though.

All in all it's built well enough to win matches, I would only make some minor changes, and even those might not be appropriate if your meta is very small and you know it well; my comments are in the context of building a deck to run in a 100+ person field.

[caprino]

The main deck looks pretty reasonable to me, although I would choose to play Karn out of the board and Hellkite in the main. I bring Karn in to handle stuff like null rod or needle, in game 1 Ugin can take care of the usual suspects either via bolt or wipe, but Ugin isn't great against rod and needle, so thats where Karn comes in. Having Hellkite main is invaluable game 1 because he is a legitimate forgemaster target that can get rid of problem permanents and even wipe the other guys board.

The only other main deck change revolves around Platinum Emperion vs Platinum Angel. I used to run Emperion Main and Angel out of the board. Angel would swap for Emperion when I brought in Dismembers. I am too tight on space these days to carry both, and I am not taking Dismember out of the board, so Angel is main. Emperion is more resilient and harder to kill, but Angel is still good.

Regarding the sideboard, I see lists playing thorns...I've never been big on it. Between chalice, 3sphere, lodestone and revokers out of the board you should be good to handle most combo lists. What are the really in there for, storm? Revoker is solid hate. I play 3 revokers, they work fine vs storm and sneak and show, and they are really helpful vs Death and Taxes and Miracles.

Orbs of warding is another one...I could see it being better than Witchbane Orb vs Storm in case they try and Empty you, but my guess is this is primarily in for the burn matchup? If you're more concerned with Burn I would probably run the Witchbane because it is faster, but as a 1 of it's hard to find and in most cases you should be able to Forgemaster out something better anyways. I generally don't play cards specifically for storm, the MU is so lopsided that I think it is pointless to waste SB slots on things just for storm.

I prefer some number of Dismember in the sideboard, I have found it to be an invaluable card vs. infect, death and taxes, and now eldrazi.

The singleton Crucible I am less than impressed with. Any 1-of needs to be a legit Forgemaster target. I'm not sold on Crucible as that target. The rest looks fine, although I like to play Faerie Macabre instead of Crypt just because Reanimator can't counter it and you can play it turn 0. Crypt is a bit better vs lands though.

All in all it's built well enough to win matches, I would only make some minor changes, and even those might not be appropriate if your meta is very small and you know it well; my comments are in the context of building a deck to run in a 100+ person field.

Thanks, Write in this post your list please

[Drake0525]

Hello Everyone!

I have more card choices to run by the veterans: I'm interested in Staff of Domination, and Lightning Greaves.

Staff of Domination is interesting because it gives the deck a potential combo win, or alternate - break in case of emergency - win condition. The issue is, I think it might be superfluous given what this deck does, and what it's capable of doing. Is it worth running?

Lightning Greaves has a much more practical argument, and that is that Metalworker dies to just about everything from forked bolt to dismember. Lightning Greaves protects our key threats, and also makes us faster - which seems important to me. Lightning Greaves seems like a no-brainer to me, but I'm still going to ask, is it as powerful as it looks?

I'd like to thank everyone for being so helpful and informative as I learn the ins and outs of this archetype!

[Fry]

Hello Everyone!

I have more card choices to run by the veterans: I'm interested in Staff of Domination, and Lightning Greaves.

Staff of Domination is interesting because it gives the deck a potential combo win, or alternate - break in case of emergency - win condition. The issue is, I think it might be superfluous given what this deck does, and what it's capable of doing. Is it worth running?

Lightning Greaves has a much more practical argument, and that is that Metalworker dies to just about everything from forked bolt to dismember. Lightning Greaves protects our key threats, and also makes us faster - which seems important to me. Lightning Greaves seems like a no-brainer to me, but I'm still going to ask, is it as powerful as it looks?

I'd like to thank everyone for being so helpful and informative as I learn the ins and outs of this archetype!

Staff of Domination and Lightning Greaves have been staples of the comboey versions for years. Lately though it seems that a lot of those style versions have fallen by the wayside. I personally used to run 3 Greaves and 1 Staff of Domination in all my lists, now I still use the singleton Staff and have cut back to 2 Lightning Greaves and added one Thousand-Year Elixir for the pseudo haste so you can use the Forgemaster/Metalworker/Welder (If you use them) without giving your opponent a chance to respond.

The Staff can have you combo win on turn 2, but it's mana intensive without Metalworker, so a lot of people have stopped using it. Staff of Domination does more things than just combo win, that a lot of players never think about. It's a decent mana sink to gain a life when you have nothing else to do. Also I've won a couple games by untapping a Wurmcoil or Sundering Titan before blockers because the Staff can untap creatures other than Metalworker when you're comboing, most people only think about the combo side of the card.

Lightning Greaves is an amazing card in itself. I can give you a turn 2 win of Metalworker>Blightsteel. It protects cards like Platinum Angel/Emperion from spot removal. Lightning Greaves just has so many uses, both for offensive and defensive parts of the game. I will never play less than two, and although I don't regret taking my 3rd out for the Thousand-Year Elixir, but sometimes I sort of want to put it back in to get that extra little bit of tempo. Also having extra copies can be redundant to help protect more creatures, be used as Forgemaster fodder, or even remain in the hand for Metalworker.

[Rikter]

Thanks, Write in this post your list please


Thanks, Write in this post your list please

I will do you one better, and post not only the list but the tournament report for the event I just got home from!

LIST

Main
4x Metalworker
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
3x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Platinum Angel
1x Sundering Titan
1x Blightsteel Colossus
(19)

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Grim Monolith
2x Trinisphere
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Staff of Domination
1x Spine of Ish Sah

(13)

2x Warping Wail

2x Ugin the Spirit Dragon

4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
3x Cavern of Souls
3x Wasteland
2x Vesuva

Board

3x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Dismember
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Tsabo's Web
1x Karn Liberated
1x Contagion Engine
1x Duplicant

Overview

This is a pretty stock list, I would say. The main difference is that I always play the 3 Wurmcoils and Hellkite main, which you don't always see, but Wurmcoil is such a house, especially against Eldrazi and Hellkite is a card that can just win the game on it's own against pretty much any deck.Titan and Blightsteel are standard. I favor 2 Warping Wail over 2 of my Trinispheres. Sphere is just such an awful top deck, and is almost always the first card I take out. Wail is incredibly versatile and shores up two of the decks historic weaknesses: being able to efficiently deal with early threats and being able to interact with spells on the stack. The scion token has its uses as well. I choose not to run Staff of Nin, I feel like Domination on its own is enough. Spine is pretty standard, same with 2 Ugin. I don't want to have too many non artifacts, and Ugin can handle 99% of your game 1 troubles, so no additional walkers. I bring Karn in out of the board in anticipation of things like needle and null rod. I don't play Coercive Portal, I don't like it. Some people like to play this as a really grindy deck I think, where Portal is probably good, but that is not my philosophy. Every single card in the deck is a 'must answer' card. Someone told me today after a match that he felt like he absolutely had to answer every single card I played and he was right. All the cards are haymakers, and I am inclined to throw them out there and see if the other guy can deal with it, as opposed to wearing them down over time. I would rather have more actual gas than portal, so no portals, because I tend to close games quickly so its better to have a good card now instead of future cards.

Sideboard is heavy on Revoker, I love this card. Having 3 in against Death and Taxes, Elves, Miracles, Storm and some of the Delver (DRS, Lilly, Jace) lists is huge. The Dismembers are there for Infect, Death and Taxes, Eldrazi and other random decks like Goblins that can cause us problems if we can't answer something like a Lackey on T1 or midrangey decks. Ratchet bomb for Delver and Eldrazi or decks that play weird stuff that can't always wait for an Ugin (See match 2 below), Bridge for Eldrazi and Show and Tell MU. Tsabo's web is good against Death and Taxes, Lands, Infect and some Eldrazi lists. Karn comes in post board, when null rod, needle and such need answering, contagion engine for decks that go wide and the Duplicant for midrangey MU, as well as Eldrazi, Show and Tell or other big creature deck.

I took this list to a 27 person Legacy tournament in NYC, 6 rounds of Swiss before a cut to top 8. The meta was unknown, so I opted for a balanced sideboard. My list is lacking any graveyard hate, although the main deck has strong interactions in Chalice, Trinisphere, Lodestone Golem and Warping Wail and we can be incredibly fast too. Duplicant, Karn and Bridges are possible board options. I haven't seen a lot of Reanimator lately anyways, I felt like what I had was enough to handle Reanimator and Lands.


Match 1 (0-0) vs 4C Jori En Pyromancer

Game 1: I am on the play, I didn't see very much besides basic Island, Badlands, Lightning Bolt and Jori En Ruin Diver. I dropped two fast Wurmcoil Engines (T2, T4) and road them to victory. Decks that rely on lightning bolt have a difficult time getting Wurmcoil off the table.

Out: 2x Trinisphere, 1x Spine
In: 2x Ratchet Bomb, 1x Contagion Engine
I am anticipating a wide token/delver based attack and am on the draw. Sphere isn't great, and Engine deals with wide boards better than Spine

Game 2: I got wastelanded turn 1, which really hurt my plan. Because I was a turn short I got my Lodestone Therapied, then my Wurmcoils Therapied, then he stuck Jace. I couldn't get enough mana to play more than 1 creature in a turn, and I just couldn't get through Jace. Clique delivered the death blow. After game two I swapped the Ratchet Bombs with Revokers for DRS and Jace, and Swapped Karn for an Ugin for faster spot removal since he didn't seem to be as wide as I was expecting.

Game 3: I opened with turn 1 chalice on 1, turn 2 and 3 lodestone golems. He tried to fight back with a pyromancer, but couldn't do enough under the spheres, and I take a quick game 3 for the match.

Match 2 (1-0) vs HelmStill

Game 1: I am on the play I see that he is playing Landstill alongside Rest in Peace and Energy Field, so sort of like Enchantress but with Force of Will. We played a long game, he had a critical Force on Spine, and then played out a main deck needle blind calling Ugin. At that point I have no way to actually kill him left in my deck, because I can't get his enchantments off the board to get through damage. He wound up helming me out.

Out: 2x Warping Wail, 2x Trinisphere 2x Grim Monolith
In: 2x Ratchet Bomb, 1x Karn, 3x Revoker
The games seem like they will go so long that Trinisphere becomes not great and the acceleration of Monolith isn't as important when you have more time to set up. Karn is backup to Ugin, since he recognized game 1 that Ugin was the card that would end the game and needled it. Revoker to shut off helm, Wail is out because he has poor targets.

Game 2: We both sort of durdle for a few turns, building mana. He struck first with RiP/Field but I answered quickly with Karn backed up by Ugin for an easy win, with Lodestone closing it out.
No sideboard changes, and there is 10 minutes left in the round.

Game 3: Starts with less than 10 on the clock, and I open aggressively with Lodestone Golem Revoker (helm). He disenchants the Revoker and I commence to beating with Lodestone Golem. I think I made a critical error here, because on the turn I played lodestone golem I could have run out Ratchet Bomb instead. He got Rest in Peace down and got his helm off. At the time he won my Ratchet Bomb was tapped with 2 counters, and the previous turn I was stuck on spine mana. I needed a land and couldn't get there.

Match 3 (1-1) vs Death and Taxes

Game 1: I am on the play, and we both mull to 5. I open chalice on 1, he plains passes. I play Grim Monolith, he plays Wasteland Thalia. I play land Sundering Titan, he scoops.

Out: 2x Trinisphere, 2x Metalworker, 2x Monolith, 1x Blightsteel Colossus, 1x Spine of Ish Sah, 1x Kuldotha Forgemaster, 1x Chalice of the Void, 1x Sundering Titan
In: 2x Ratchet Bomb, 3x Revoker, 3x Dismember, 2x Tsabo's Web, 1x Contagion Engine

Trinisphere is generally pretty bad against Death and Taxes. They don't need to play more than 1 spell per turn, and they have a lot of ways to cheat out extra spells like with SFM and Vial. I take out a chalice if I am on the draw, it's less of a priority for me post board because I have a lot more interaction with their stuff so it's ok for them to play out a bit. Spine comes out because I want to wipe boards with Contagion Engine, which is also cheaper and has the potential to wreck their Aether Vial. Sundering Titan is out because he is expensive and only ever gets one land, Blightsteel is out because he is tough to hardcast when your mana stuff gets revoked and even when you can fetch him they have such cluttered boards that he isn't going to reliably one shot the other guy. One forgemaster comes out because I run fewer targets, and they have so much ability hate that you can't just rely on any one ability so much. For this reason 2x Metalworker comes out, because my curve is so much lower and because I don't need to ramp so much. Monolith also comes out. Basically I lower my curve and diversify my activated abilities. All the cards that come in can take their stuff off the board or seriously disrupt them and mana denial is less effective. I think the inclusions are pretty self explanatory. Revoker is huge here.

Game 2: He opens with plains vial, I open with chalice on 1. He follows this up with SFM (Batterskull), and I respond with wail on my turn. He then proceeds to drop a Serra Avenger and and Jitte. I Tsabo's web, locking down his Karakas and Port and pass, holding up dismember. He equips Jitte on Avenger and I let him attack before I kill it, since he had mana to equip again. Over the next few turns he starts beating me down with Thalia Jitte, but he is holding the counters. I stabilized a bit using glimmerposts, but at this point I am a turn away from him unloading the counters and wrecking me. I top deck a Revoker and shut down the Jitte. He continues to hit me with Thalia for a few more turns before I stick Forgemaster and tinker for Angel. I have been keeping him from totally unloading on me with my Chalice on 1 backed up by Chalice at 2 and Chalice at 5 (didn't want BSkull equipped on Avenger), and I finally hit Ugin, wipe his board and win.

Match 4 (2-1) vs Miracles

Game 1: I am on the play and open Chalice on 1 into Metalworker followed by a Wurmcoil Engine. He has played 2 lands. I start beating and stick a Chalice on 6 and he doesn't draw Jace.

Out: 2x Trinisphere, 2x Grim Monolith
In: 3x Revokers, 1x Karn

Trinisphere is kind of lackluster, Monolith is unnecessary. I keep the Metalworkers because they can attack and enable more broken things than monolith. I would probably take them out if I had something better, but I don't so it doesn't matter. Revoker is a must for top and Jace, Karn is backup for Ugin.

Game 2: I keep a slowish post hand and am punished for it by getting Cliqued and losing Lodestone. I play Wurmcoil instead and he plays a Moat. I can't hit my hate in time and I get Entreated with no Ugin in sight.

No sideboard changes.

Game 3: I open with turn 2 Lodestone in Metalworker into Ugin. My opponent doesn't have an answer and my guys make short work. There was a little back in forth but I came out hard and stayed in front. Pretty uneventful.

Match 5 (3-1) vs Red and Taxes

Game 1: He falls victim to chalice 1, 3spher into sundering titan. I can see that he has imperial recruiter in his deck, and plateau, although he recruiters for magus of the moon which is strange.

Out: 2x Trinisphere
In: 2x Revoker

Game 2: He came out swinging in this one, following up a Vial with a wasteland on my post and dropping Thalia into Wispmares. I have gotten my revokers down and have been interfering with his vial, and shutting off SoFI but he's hitting hard. I stabilized with a Steel Hellkite and Lodestone Golems but he is on a wide board with multiple Magus of the Moon at this point. I start banging in with the Lodestones, wearing his board down. I finally get rid of the Magi and land Ugin, wiping the board and allowing me to kill him with Hellkite.

Match 6 (4-1) vs Eldrazi

So this is typically a situation where you get to draw in to top 8. I get paired down against a guy who can't draw in, and am forced to play.

Game 1: I am on the draw. He opens with Chalice on 1, I respond with Grim Monolith. He plays a Mimic, I play a second grim Monolith and a Wurmcoil engine. I don't really remember what he did with his last 2 turns because before the Wurmcoil could finish him I went off with Metalworker Staff.

Out: 2x Trinisphere, 2x Ugin, 4x Chalice of the Void, 1 Titan
In: 3x Dismember, 2x Ratchet Bomb, 2x Ensnaring Bridge, 1x Karn, 1x Duplicant

Trinisphere can sometimes get there against Eye but its bag. Chalice always comes out against other chalice decks. 8 Mana is too much for a lightning bolt on a stick or a vanilla 7/10. I put in 6 cards to remove their dudes, plus 2 defensive bridges.

Game 2: He goes temple pass, I go turn 1 Ancient Tomb into Grim Monolith, Grim Monolith, Grim Monolith, Kuldotha Forgemaster. He does not have dismember for the forgemaster, and he doesn't have an answer for Blightsteel Colossus either.


Final swiss: 5-1, 1st place. It ended up working out having to play; everyone else drew to 14 points and it turns out it was not possible for me to get breakered out even if I lost.


Top 8 (5-1) vs Death and Taxes

Game 1: I open with cloudpost and get wasted. As I rebuild my mana he Revokers and blind calls candelabra. I follow up with chalice on 1 into Forgemaster. This stalls his attack out, and I find extra artifacts to power out Blightsteel and kill him.

Sideboarding is identical the the first death and taxes match.

Game 2:: He opens on vial, which I revoker. He follows with a Mangara which I wail. He plays a few creatures and I run out Metalworker. He lets me untap with Metalworker, which turns into 10 mana and my hand unloaded (Forgemaster, Greaves, Monolith, Revoker), to his one card with 2 mana up. I activate Forgemaster and in response he flashes in containment priest. I search up contagion engine and decimate his board before killing him with a Wurmcoil.

Top 4 (6-1) vs Eldrazi

Different Eldrazi Deck

Game 1: Game one I open with Tomb and chalice on 0 (I knew what he was on and saw petals earlier). He opens on Eye. I follow with a Trinisphere, which keeps him off of Thought Knot the following turn, then drop Hellkite. He doesn't have dismember and gets killed by the hellkite.

Sideboarding the same as earlier Eldrazi

Game 2: I mull to 6 and keep a mana light hand that is strong on interaction with Bridge, Wail, Dismember and a Monolith. I held off his early threats and stuck a Forgemaster, unfortunately he has Dismember and I fall to thought knot seer backed up by smasher.

No sideboard change

Game 3: I mull to 6 on the play, keeping a hand of City of Traitors, 2x Monolith, Wail, Bridge, Dismember and scrying to the bottom. It may seem greedy but I didn't see wasteland from him, and I can play all my spells. All I need to do is draw a land. I don't draw a land, but I do draw Wurmcoil and I drop a turn 2 Wurmcoil. He has Mimic/ Thought Knot seer and trades them for my wurm. I proceed to not draw any lands, and eventually my Wurm tokens are bested by an Endbringer which drew a ton of extra cards and allowed him to get through.

I finished in 3rd place, and got an nm Bayou.

Overall the list played well. I'm thinking about ditching bridge, and in the future I will probably side out warping wail vs Eldrazi, killing mimic isn't enough to keep it in. I may swap them out for Torpor Orbs, which shut down mimic as well as thought-knot, and have a use vs elves. Eldrazi have a hard time with fast Wurmcoil. The deck hits hard, you can't screw around going long. I just run my combo stuff aggressively, they have no library manipulation that is fast enough to be relevant and if they don't have the Dismember it's a fast game.

[Stuart]

(intelligent points)

Fry's got this pretty well covered, but a few other quick points:
- Greaves is also a nice aggro piece. Turn 1 Greaves into Turn 2 Lodestone is hard for a lot of decks to catch up from. While Greaves is sometimes a shitty topdeck, the same can be said of Chalice, Trinisphere, Monolith, and Metalworker.
- Staff's other modes are also helpful. Against decks like Sneak & Show, being able to tap down the fatty they cheat in can win you the game. And while the card draw is expensive, it can put you over the edge in grindier matchups.


(impressive report)

Very nicely done, Rikter! I'm especially impressed considering the number of DnT opponents you ran into; I've found that to be a very skill-testing match. And happy to see you were able to handle Eldrazi pretty well.

[Rikter]

Fry's got this pretty well covered, but a few other quick points:
- Greaves is also a nice aggro piece. Turn 1 Greaves into Turn 2 Lodestone is hard for a lot of decks to catch up from. While Greaves is sometimes a shitty topdeck, the same can be said of Chalice, Trinisphere, Monolith, and Metalworker.
- Staff's other modes are also helpful. Against decks like Sneak & Show, being able to tap down the fatty they cheat in can win you the game. And while the card draw is expensive, it can put you over the edge in grindier matchups.



Very nicely done, Rikter! I'm especially impressed considering the number of DnT opponents you ran into; I've found that to be a very skill-testing match. And happy to see you were able to handle Eldrazi pretty well.


Greaves is sweet. I think turn 1 greaves is your scariest opener, tapping out to a turn 1 greaves is a very dangerous thing to do. Also agree on staff, I prefer Domination to Nin because of the ability to lock down creatures, possibly multiple creatures. Plus, it's not unusual to have 10-12 mana available per turn. Staff is worth Forgemastering for, because it can win the game on the spot.

A buddy of mine played death and taxes, so I have a lot of experience against that deck. They have so many ways to attack our game 1 configuration that it can be tough. Warping Wail is a nice card to have in the main deck, because revoker hurts so much. My sideboarding plan for DnT this tournament came together mid round at the event. I would typically leave my MW/FM/GM completely intact, and leave in chalice as well and only sub out 4 or 5 cards. The matches would be very tense still.

Yesterday I went into sideboarding round 3 I decided that since I had 11 cards that were really good against them that I would bring in all 11 and see how that went. When deciding what to cut it was sort of a natural progression, as I started cutting cards off the top, I cut some of the cards that were powering them. More metalworkers than forgemasters because Forgemaster is a great blocker that can fetch up Angel and other hate cards. Tsabo's web and Revoker are viable FM targets. The deck gets a little less explosive, but with the advantage of a lowered curve and a strong disruptive package that doesn't just fold to wasteland/port or Revoker and interacts very strongly with Death and Taxes game plan. I am going to continue with my 11 card package like this, I was really happy with just having a ton of answers for all the irritating things they do, and not being in a position where a single revoker could just lock me out of the game.

I've played 3 competitive matches against Eldrazi, and am currently 2-1. Wurmcoil is such an amazing card against them, I didn't really appreciate it until today but boy is it good. Just, the best y'all. I was so close to 3-0 the other day. I'm not actually sure about bridge in the sideboard. In my first Eldrazi match a few weeks ago Bridge saved the day. My strategy this time around though was to just be greedy about running things out. I think this is evident in my decision to keep a 6 card hand with a single city of traitors for land, but 2 grim monoliths. In place of bridge I could consider Torpor Orb if I want to focus on eldrazi, because it splashes for elves too and it does hinder 8 of the threats in their deck, but I could also tune towards a different Matchup.

[Drake0525]

OK, so after a lot of research on the archetype, conversations with you guys, and a lot of goldfishing, this is the 75 I landed on:

4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
4x Wasteland
1x Vesuva
3x Cavern of Souls

4x Metalworker
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Wurmcoil Engine
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Platinum Emperion

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Grim Monolith
2x Trinisphere
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Lightning Greaves
1x Coercive Portal
1x Staff of Domination

2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Sideboard:
2x Warping Wail
1x Coercive Portal
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Gravedigger’s Cage
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Pithing Needle
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Sundering Titan
1x All is Dust

There are still a few points of rationale that I'm not sure about:
- Coercive Portal. Much as this looks like the perfect card to help with this deck's consistency, I'm not sure it's menacing enough to warrant more than 1 spot in the main. The other cards in the flex spots, Lightning Greaves, Ratchet Bomb, Staff of Domination, are much more dangerous. I want my threat density to be relatively high.

- Warping Wail - I do want this card in the main, but I'm not sure where to put it. Ratchet Bomb would probably be the card most likely to be replaced by Warping Wail, but I like the idea of having a good number of cards in the deck that govern the board - Ugin, Ratchet Bomb, Steel Hellkite.

- Kuldotha Foremaster - This one is the most recent point of debate, do I run 3x or 4x? It came down to the fact that Forgemaster is a tutor, it's better library manipulation than a draw engine, and he's a better top deck than Coercive Portal. We're shooting for consistency here, and even if Forgemaster isn't a win-con himself, he can definitely help you get a creature into play that is a win-con.

[Airwave]

OK, so after a lot of research on the archetype, conversations with you guys, and a lot of goldfishing, this is the 75 I landed on:

LIST

There are still a few points of rationale that I'm not sure about:
- Coercive Portal. Much as this looks like the perfect card to help with this deck's consistency, I'm not sure it's menacing enough to warrant more than 1 spot in the main. The other cards in the flex spots, Lightning Greaves, Ratchet Bomb, Staff of Domination, are much more dangerous. I want my threat density to be relatively high.

- Warping Wail - I do want this card in the main, but I'm not sure where to put it. Ratchet Bomb would probably be the card most likely to be replaced by Warping Wail, but I like the idea of having a good number of cards in the deck that govern the board - Ugin, Ratchet Bomb, Steel Hellkite.

- Kuldotha Foremaster - This one is the most recent point of debate, do I run 3x or 4x? It came down to the fact that Forgemaster is a tutor, it's better library manipulation than a draw engine, and he's a better top deck than Coercive Portal. We're shooting for consistency here, and even if Forgemaster isn't a win-con himself, he can definitely help you get a creature into play that is a win-con.

Solid list except for one big missing card: Blightsteel Colossus

Why did you take it out? When I tutor for a card with Forgemaster I'm going for Blightsteel 8 out of 10 times probably...

[Stuart]

Solid list except for one big missing card: Blightsteel Colossus

Why did you take it out? When I tutor for a card with Forgemaster I'm going for Blightsteel 8 out of 10 times probably...

Agreed - list looks really solid, but you can probably maximize your Forgemasters' usefulness with better tutor targets. I'd consider -2 Ratchet Bomb for +1 Blightsteel and +1 Spine of Ish Sah. Blightsteel gives us free wins, and Spine is important to deal with random problems you might not be prepared for (e.g. Ensnaring Bridge, Liliana, etc).

I'm intrigued by 4 Wurmcoils. Let us know how that goes!

[Drake0525]

Agreed - list looks really solid, but you can probably maximize your Forgemasters' usefulness with better tutor targets. I'd consider -2 Ratchet Bomb for +1 Blightsteel and +1 Spine of Ish Sah. Blightsteel gives us free wins, and Spine is important to deal with random problems you might not be prepared for (e.g. Ensnaring Bridge, Liliana, etc).

I'm intrigued by 4 Wurmcoils. Let us know how that goes!My choices usually begin with mana-curve, Blightsteel Colossus is just very, very expensive at CMC 12. Wurmcoil Engine is a card that no fair deck in the format wants to face, especially early in the game. Wurmcoil is also a very castable 6 drop that outclasses most of the threats in Eldrazi Aggro.

Spine of Ish Sah is a card I wanted to run, but couldn't really find room for. It's possible that Spine is just a better card in this deck than Coercive portal, but I can't see cutting out Ratchet Bomb. With Monastery Mentor, Young Pyromancer and Delver of Secrets out there, I feel like Ratchet Bomb will do a lot of work.

[Rikter]

My choices usually begin with mana-curve, Blightsteel Colossus is just very, very expensive at CMC 12. Wurmcoil Engine is a card that no fair deck in the format wants to face, especially early in the game. Wurmcoil is also a very castable 6 drop that outclasses most of the threats in Eldrazi Aggro.

Spine of Ish Sah is a card I wanted to run, but couldn't really find room for. It's possible that Spine is just a better card in this deck than Coercive portal, but I can't see cutting out Ratchet Bomb. With Monastery Mentor, Young Pyromancer and Delver of Secrets out there, I feel like Ratchet Bomb will do a lot of work.


I would remove 1 greaves, 1 portal, 2 ratchet bomb for blightsteel, spine and 2x warping wail.

I tried a no blightsteel list, its just too strong a move to not make. I will board it out though.

Spine is good to have at instant speed game one, its saved me so many times.

I like 4x wurmcoil, swapping out a forgemaster fattie for wurmcoil is fine to me. Its a really tough card for many decks to deal with, and turn 2 or 3 is not hard.

Ratchet bomb is nice, but game 1 I go hard on my combos, pre board is your best chance to do that stuff so maximize it. Wail ramps, deals with some problem creatures and can counter. Very versatile, I like it more than bomb main because it is almoat universally good.

[Drake0525]

I would remove 1 greaves, 1 portal, 2 ratchet bomb for blightsteel, spine and 2x warping wail.

I tried a no blightsteel list, its just too strong a move to not make. I will board it out though.

Spine is good to have at instant speed game one, its saved me so many times.

I like 4x wurmcoil, swapping out a forgemaster fattie for wurmcoil is fine to me. Its a really tough card for many decks to deal with, and turn 2 or 3 is not hard.

Ratchet bomb is nice, but game 1 I go hard on my combos, pre board is your best chance to do that stuff so maximize it. Wail ramps, deals with some problem creatures and can counter. Very versatile, I like it more than bomb main because it is almoat universally good.I like this actually. I'll make the changes you suggest in the main, figure out the sideboard and try running it this week at the LGS. Thanks everyone for the help!

[caprino]

I will do you one better, and post not only the list but the tournament report for the event I just got home from!

LIST

Main
4x Metalworker
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
3x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Platinum Angel
1x Sundering Titan
1x Blightsteel Colossus
(19)

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Grim Monolith
2x Trinisphere
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Staff of Domination
1x Spine of Ish Sah

(13)

2x Warping Wail

2x Ugin the Spirit Dragon

4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
3x Cavern of Souls
3x Wasteland
2x Vesuva

Board

3x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Dismember
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Tsabo's Web
1x Karn Liberated
1x Contagion Engine
1x Duplicant

Overview

This is a pretty stock list, I would say. The main difference is that I always play the 3 Wurmcoils and Hellkite main, which you don't always see, but Wurmcoil is such a house, especially against Eldrazi and Hellkite is a card that can just win the game on it's own against pretty much any deck.Titan and Blightsteel are standard. I favor 2 Warping Wail over 2 of my Trinispheres. Sphere is just such an awful top deck, and is almost always the first card I take out. Wail is incredibly versatile and shores up two of the decks historic weaknesses: being able to efficiently deal with early threats and being able to interact with spells on the stack. The scion token has its uses as well. I choose not to run Staff of Nin, I feel like Domination on its own is enough. Spine is pretty standard, same with 2 Ugin. I don't want to have too many non artifacts, and Ugin can handle 99% of your game 1 troubles, so no additional walkers. I bring Karn in out of the board in anticipation of things like needle and null rod. I don't play Coercive Portal, I don't like it. Some people like to play this as a really grindy deck I think, where Portal is probably good, but that is not my philosophy. Every single card in the deck is a 'must answer' card. Someone told me today after a match that he felt like he absolutely had to answer every single card I played and he was right. All the cards are haymakers, and I am inclined to throw them out there and see if the other guy can deal with it, as opposed to wearing them down over time. I would rather have more actual gas than portal, so no portals, because I tend to close games quickly so its better to have a good card now instead of future cards.

Sideboard is heavy on Revoker, I love this card. Having 3 in against Death and Taxes, Elves, Miracles, Storm and some of the Delver (DRS, Lilly, Jace) lists is huge. The Dismembers are there for Infect, Death and Taxes, Eldrazi and other random decks like Goblins that can cause us problems if we can't answer something like a Lackey on T1 or midrangey decks. Ratchet bomb for Delver and Eldrazi or decks that play weird stuff that can't always wait for an Ugin (See match 2 below), Bridge for Eldrazi and Show and Tell MU. Tsabo's web is good against Death and Taxes, Lands, Infect and some Eldrazi lists. Karn comes in post board, when null rod, needle and such need answering, contagion engine for decks that go wide and the Duplicant for midrangey MU, as well as Eldrazi, Show and Tell or other big creature deck.

I took this list to a 27 person Legacy tournament in NYC, 6 rounds of Swiss before a cut to top 8. The meta was unknown, so I opted for a balanced sideboard. My list is lacking any graveyard hate, although the main deck has strong interactions in Chalice, Trinisphere, Lodestone Golem and Warping Wail and we can be incredibly fast too. Duplicant, Karn and Bridges are possible board options. I haven't seen a lot of Reanimator lately anyways, I felt like what I had was enough to handle Reanimator and Lands.


Match 1 (0-0) vs 4C Jori En Pyromancer

Game 1: I am on the play, I didn't see very much besides basic Island, Badlands, Lightning Bolt and Jori En Ruin Diver. I dropped two fast Wurmcoil Engines (T2, T4) and road them to victory. Decks that rely on lightning bolt have a difficult time getting Wurmcoil off the table.

Out: 2x Trinisphere, 1x Spine
In: 2x Ratchet Bomb, 1x Contagion Engine
I am anticipating a wide token/delver based attack and am on the draw. Sphere isn't great, and Engine deals with wide boards better than Spine

Game 2: I got wastelanded turn 1, which really hurt my plan. Because I was a turn short I got my Lodestone Therapied, then my Wurmcoils Therapied, then he stuck Jace. I couldn't get enough mana to play more than 1 creature in a turn, and I just couldn't get through Jace. Clique delivered the death blow. After game two I swapped the Ratchet Bombs with Revokers for DRS and Jace, and Swapped Karn for an Ugin for faster spot removal since he didn't seem to be as wide as I was expecting.

Game 3: I opened with turn 1 chalice on 1, turn 2 and 3 lodestone golems. He tried to fight back with a pyromancer, but couldn't do enough under the spheres, and I take a quick game 3 for the match.

Match 2 (1-0) vs HelmStill

Game 1: I am on the play I see that he is playing Landstill alongside Rest in Peace and Energy Field, so sort of like Enchantress but with Force of Will. We played a long game, he had a critical Force on Spine, and then played out a main deck needle blind calling Ugin. At that point I have no way to actually kill him left in my deck, because I can't get his enchantments off the board to get through damage. He wound up helming me out.

Out: 2x Warping Wail, 2x Trinisphere 2x Grim Monolith
In: 2x Ratchet Bomb, 1x Karn, 3x Revoker
The games seem like they will go so long that Trinisphere becomes not great and the acceleration of Monolith isn't as important when you have more time to set up. Karn is backup to Ugin, since he recognized game 1 that Ugin was the card that would end the game and needled it. Revoker to shut off helm, Wail is out because he has poor targets.

Game 2: We both sort of durdle for a few turns, building mana. He struck first with RiP/Field but I answered quickly with Karn backed up by Ugin for an easy win, with Lodestone closing it out.
No sideboard changes, and there is 10 minutes left in the round.

Game 3: Starts with less than 10 on the clock, and I open aggressively with Lodestone Golem Revoker (helm). He disenchants the Revoker and I commence to beating with Lodestone Golem. I think I made a critical error here, because on the turn I played lodestone golem I could have run out Ratchet Bomb instead. He got Rest in Peace down and got his helm off. At the time he won my Ratchet Bomb was tapped with 2 counters, and the previous turn I was stuck on spine mana. I needed a land and couldn't get there.

Match 3 (1-1) vs Death and Taxes

Game 1: I am on the play, and we both mull to 5. I open chalice on 1, he plains passes. I play Grim Monolith, he plays Wasteland Thalia. I play land Sundering Titan, he scoops.

Out: 2x Trinisphere, 2x Metalworker, 2x Monolith, 1x Blightsteel Colossus, 1x Spine of Ish Sah, 1x Kuldotha Forgemaster, 1x Chalice of the Void, 1x Sundering Titan
In: 2x Ratchet Bomb, 3x Revoker, 3x Dismember, 2x Tsabo's Web, 1x Contagion Engine

Trinisphere is generally pretty bad against Death and Taxes. They don't need to play more than 1 spell per turn, and they have a lot of ways to cheat out extra spells like with SFM and Vial. I take out a chalice if I am on the draw, it's less of a priority for me post board because I have a lot more interaction with their stuff so it's ok for them to play out a bit. Spine comes out because I want to wipe boards with Contagion Engine, which is also cheaper and has the potential to wreck their Aether Vial. Sundering Titan is out because he is expensive and only ever gets one land, Blightsteel is out because he is tough to hardcast when your mana stuff gets revoked and even when you can fetch him they have such cluttered boards that he isn't going to reliably one shot the other guy. One forgemaster comes out because I run fewer targets, and they have so much ability hate that you can't just rely on any one ability so much. For this reason 2x Metalworker comes out, because my curve is so much lower and because I don't need to ramp so much. Monolith also comes out. Basically I lower my curve and diversify my activated abilities. All the cards that come in can take their stuff off the board or seriously disrupt them and mana denial is less effective. I think the inclusions are pretty self explanatory. Revoker is huge here.

Game 2: He opens with plains vial, I open with chalice on 1. He follows this up with SFM (Batterskull), and I respond with wail on my turn. He then proceeds to drop a Serra Avenger and and Jitte. I Tsabo's web, locking down his Karakas and Port and pass, holding up dismember. He equips Jitte on Avenger and I let him attack before I kill it, since he had mana to equip again. Over the next few turns he starts beating me down with Thalia Jitte, but he is holding the counters. I stabilized a bit using glimmerposts, but at this point I am a turn away from him unloading the counters and wrecking me. I top deck a Revoker and shut down the Jitte. He continues to hit me with Thalia for a few more turns before I stick Forgemaster and tinker for Angel. I have been keeping him from totally unloading on me with my Chalice on 1 backed up by Chalice at 2 and Chalice at 5 (didn't want BSkull equipped on Avenger), and I finally hit Ugin, wipe his board and win.

Match 4 (2-1) vs Miracles

Game 1: I am on the play and open Chalice on 1 into Metalworker followed by a Wurmcoil Engine. He has played 2 lands. I start beating and stick a Chalice on 6 and he doesn't draw Jace.

Out: 2x Trinisphere, 2x Grim Monolith
In: 3x Revokers, 1x Karn

Trinisphere is kind of lackluster, Monolith is unnecessary. I keep the Metalworkers because they can attack and enable more broken things than monolith. I would probably take them out if I had something better, but I don't so it doesn't matter. Revoker is a must for top and Jace, Karn is backup for Ugin.

Game 2: I keep a slowish post hand and am punished for it by getting Cliqued and losing Lodestone. I play Wurmcoil instead and he plays a Moat. I can't hit my hate in time and I get Entreated with no Ugin in sight.

No sideboard changes.

Game 3: I open with turn 2 Lodestone in Metalworker into Ugin. My opponent doesn't have an answer and my guys make short work. There was a little back in forth but I came out hard and stayed in front. Pretty uneventful.

Match 5 (3-1) vs Red and Taxes

Game 1: He falls victim to chalice 1, 3spher into sundering titan. I can see that he has imperial recruiter in his deck, and plateau, although he recruiters for magus of the moon which is strange.

Out: 2x Trinisphere
In: 2x Revoker

Game 2: He came out swinging in this one, following up a Vial with a wasteland on my post and dropping Thalia into Wispmares. I have gotten my revokers down and have been interfering with his vial, and shutting off SoFI but he's hitting hard. I stabilized with a Steel Hellkite and Lodestone Golems but he is on a wide board with multiple Magus of the Moon at this point. I start banging in with the Lodestones, wearing his board down. I finally get rid of the Magi and land Ugin, wiping the board and allowing me to kill him with Hellkite.

Match 6 (4-1) vs Eldrazi

So this is typically a situation where you get to draw in to top 8. I get paired down against a guy who can't draw in, and am forced to play.

Game 1: I am on the draw. He opens with Chalice on 1, I respond with Grim Monolith. He plays a Mimic, I play a second grim Monolith and a Wurmcoil engine. I don't really remember what he did with his last 2 turns because before the Wurmcoil could finish him I went off with Metalworker Staff.

Out: 2x Trinisphere, 2x Ugin, 4x Chalice of the Void, 1 Titan
In: 3x Dismember, 2x Ratchet Bomb, 2x Ensnaring Bridge, 1x Karn, 1x Duplicant

Trinisphere can sometimes get there against Eye but its bag. Chalice always comes out against other chalice decks. 8 Mana is too much for a lightning bolt on a stick or a vanilla 7/10. I put in 6 cards to remove their dudes, plus 2 defensive bridges.

Game 2: He goes temple pass, I go turn 1 Ancient Tomb into Grim Monolith, Grim Monolith, Grim Monolith, Kuldotha Forgemaster. He does not have dismember for the forgemaster, and he doesn't have an answer for Blightsteel Colossus either.


Final swiss: 5-1, 1st place. It ended up working out having to play; everyone else drew to 14 points and it turns out it was not possible for me to get breakered out even if I lost.


Top 8 (5-1) vs Death and Taxes

Game 1: I open with cloudpost and get wasted. As I rebuild my mana he Revokers and blind calls candelabra. I follow up with chalice on 1 into Forgemaster. This stalls his attack out, and I find extra artifacts to power out Blightsteel and kill him.

Sideboarding is identical the the first death and taxes match.

Game 2:: He opens on vial, which I revoker. He follows with a Mangara which I wail. He plays a few creatures and I run out Metalworker. He lets me untap with Metalworker, which turns into 10 mana and my hand unloaded (Forgemaster, Greaves, Monolith, Revoker), to his one card with 2 mana up. I activate Forgemaster and in response he flashes in containment priest. I search up contagion engine and decimate his board before killing him with a Wurmcoil.

Top 4 (6-1) vs Eldrazi

Different Eldrazi Deck

Game 1: Game one I open with Tomb and chalice on 0 (I knew what he was on and saw petals earlier). He opens on Eye. I follow with a Trinisphere, which keeps him off of Thought Knot the following turn, then drop Hellkite. He doesn't have dismember and gets killed by the hellkite.

Sideboarding the same as earlier Eldrazi

Game 2: I mull to 6 and keep a mana light hand that is strong on interaction with Bridge, Wail, Dismember and a Monolith. I held off his early threats and stuck a Forgemaster, unfortunately he has Dismember and I fall to thought knot seer backed up by smasher.

No sideboard change

Game 3: I mull to 6 on the play, keeping a hand of City of Traitors, 2x Monolith, Wail, Bridge, Dismember and scrying to the bottom. It may seem greedy but I didn't see wasteland from him, and I can play all my spells. All I need to do is draw a land. I don't draw a land, but I do draw Wurmcoil and I drop a turn 2 Wurmcoil. He has Mimic/ Thought Knot seer and trades them for my wurm. I proceed to not draw any lands, and eventually my Wurm tokens are bested by an Endbringer which drew a ton of extra cards and allowed him to get through.

I finished in 3rd place, and got an nm Bayou.

Overall the list played well. I'm thinking about ditching bridge, and in the future I will probably side out warping wail vs Eldrazi, killing mimic isn't enough to keep it in. I may swap them out for Torpor Orbs, which shut down mimic as well as thought-knot, and have a use vs elves. Eldrazi have a hard time with fast Wurmcoil. The deck hits hard, you can't screw around going long. I just run my combo stuff aggressively, they have no library manipulation that is fast enough to be relevant and if they don't have the Dismember it's a fast game.

nice list..side out and side in vs rug,delver deck,ant ecc

[Rikter]

nice list..side out and side in vs rug,delver deck,ant ecc

Storm/ANT

+3 Revoker

-2 Ugin
-1 Spine

You could also leave spine in and take out staff of domination, replacing it with Karn. The main deck is already pretty hateful towards storm, so I don't do much. The revokers are helpful to shut off LED or Petal, Ugin comes out because he is too slow and his -X is pretty useless against storm. Spine generally comes out because it is less useful against storm, generally you will only be able to hit a land.

RUG Delver
+2 Ratchet Bomb
+1 Duplicant
+1 Contagion Engine
+1 Karn

-2 Trinisphere
-1 Spine
-2 Warping Wail

Ratchet bomb comes in because their threats are all 1 and 2 mana, and some have shroud, so you need something that won't target. Duplicant is good because you can kill his goyfs or a bothersome delver and it can block the mongoose. Engine is in because they are likely to be wide, and it gets around mongoose shroud. Karn comes in to handle other bothersome permanents, plus he plays around Null Rod or Ancient Grudge and can get needle off the table. Wail is out because it doesn't kill enough of their threats, spine is out because it can't take on mongoose, trinisphere is out because if I can handle their threats I'm less concerned with them casting spells. DO NOT PLAY DISMEMBER AGAINST DECKS THAT PLAY LIGHTNING BOLT. Can't emphasize this enough, you cannot play dismember against decks that bolt, it speeds the clock up too much. Dismember is best against decks that play swords as their removal, decks that don't attack your life (Infect) or decks like eldrazi where they can't counter it and have no direct damage.

BUG Delver

BUG is an interesting MU. The cards that are most likely to come out are Trinisphere, Wail and Blightsteel, the cards most likely to come in are Ratchet Bomb, Revoker, Duplicant, Dismember and Karn. A lot of it will have to do with how many planeswalkers I see game 1, if they are shardless or not, whether I am on the play or the draw. Karn is a good one because BUG lists will often play Null Rod as artifact hate. Probably my most fluid MU in terms of sideboarding.

Lands

+2 Tsabo's Web
+1 Karn
+2 Ensnaring Bridge

-2 Trinisphere
-2 Warping Wail
-1 Ugin

Web really slows them down, as can Bridge. Karn is in for problem permanents and because the games go longer so you can really do a lot of work with him. Trinisphere and Wail come out because they are less effective, 1 Ugin comes out because he is an 8 mana reusable lightning bolt in this MU, generally.

Infect
+2 Ratchet Bomb
+3 Dismember
+2 Tsabo's Web
+1 Contagion Engine

-1 Chalice of the Void
-1 Blightsteel
-1 Sundering Titan
-1 Staff of Domination
-4 Metalworker

I lower my curve a lot in this MU. I take out metalworker because I am not ramping as hard, along with a few of the bigger mana cards. Forgemaster is important to keep because he can find Engine or Platinum Angel, plus he blocks better.Mostly I just focus on removing their infect threats. Tsabo's Web can be great because they play so many lands that it hits.

[Gheizen64]

May i suggest 1 or 2 Temporal Aperture +2 coercive portal instead of 4 coercive portals? It's worse when you're stuck on mana, but it has some advantages, mostly on the mana side since it cheat everything you reveal.

It was a pretty common sight back then, but then its power level dwindled fast with the rise of faster, aggressive aggro lists, and also, good fatties weren't just good enough most of the time, even cheated. Phyrexian colossus just died to everything and was pretty bad anyway. Nowadays with fatties being much much better, i think this card has merit again, as it not only draw an additional card, but does also give mana as long as you reveal a creature in most cases (or goes even with batterskulls), or ugin for the lulz. It costing 2 has some merit also because it allow you to sneak it in early on when sometimes you have nothing to do.

I have some in my binders and i'm gonna sleeves and try 'em.

[caprino]

Storm/ANT

+3 Revoker

-2 Ugin
-1 Spine

You could also leave spine in and take out staff of domination, replacing it with Karn. The main deck is already pretty hateful towards storm, so I don't do much. The revokers are helpful to shut off LED or Petal, Ugin comes out because he is too slow and his -X is pretty useless against storm. Spine generally comes out because it is less useful against storm, generally you will only be able to hit a land.

RUG Delver
+2 Ratchet Bomb
+1 Duplicant
+1 Contagion Engine
+1 Karn

-2 Trinisphere
-1 Spine
-2 Warping Wail

Ratchet bomb comes in because their threats are all 1 and 2 mana, and some have shroud, so you need something that won't target. Duplicant is good because you can kill his goyfs or a bothersome delver and it can block the mongoose. Engine is in because they are likely to be wide, and it gets around mongoose shroud. Karn comes in to handle other bothersome permanents, plus he plays around Null Rod or Ancient Grudge and can get needle off the table. Wail is out because it doesn't kill enough of their threats, spine is out because it can't take on mongoose, trinisphere is out because if I can handle their threats I'm less concerned with them casting spells. DO NOT PLAY DISMEMBER AGAINST DECKS THAT PLAY LIGHTNING BOLT. Can't emphasize this enough, you cannot play dismember against decks that bolt, it speeds the clock up too much. Dismember is best against decks that play swords as their removal, decks that don't attack your life (Infect) or decks like eldrazi where they can't counter it and have no direct damage.

BUG Delver

BUG is an interesting MU. The cards that are most likely to come out are Trinisphere, Wail and Blightsteel, the cards most likely to come in are Ratchet Bomb, Revoker, Duplicant, Dismember and Karn. A lot of it will have to do with how many planeswalkers I see game 1, if they are shardless or not, whether I am on the play or the draw. Karn is a good one because BUG lists will often play Null Rod as artifact hate. Probably my most fluid MU in terms of sideboarding.

Lands

+2 Tsabo's Web
+1 Karn
+2 Ensnaring Bridge

-2 Trinisphere
-2 Warping Wail
-1 Ugin

Web really slows them down, as can Bridge. Karn is in for problem permanents and because the games go longer so you can really do a lot of work with him. Trinisphere and Wail come out because they are less effective, 1 Ugin comes out because he is an 8 mana reusable lightning bolt in this MU, generally.

Infect
+2 Ratchet Bomb
+3 Dismember
+2 Tsabo's Web
+1 Contagion Engine

-1 Chalice of the Void
-1 Blightsteel
-1 Sundering Titan
-1 Staff of Domination
-4 Metalworker

I lower my curve a lot in this MU. I take out metalworker because I am not ramping as hard, along with a few of the bigger mana cards. Forgemaster is important to keep because he can find Engine or Platinum Angel, plus he blocks better.Mostly I just focus on removing their infect threats. Tsabo's Web can be great because they play so many lands that it hits.

vs mono white(d&t) side out and side in?

[Rikter]

vs mono white(d&t) side out and side in?


Out: 2x Trinisphere, 2x Metalworker, 2x Monolith, 1x Blightsteel Colossus, 1x Spine of Ish Sah, 1x Kuldotha Forgemaster, 1x Chalice of the Void, 1x Sundering Titan
In: 2x Ratchet Bomb, 3x Revoker, 3x Dismember, 2x Tsabo's Web, 1x Contagion Engine

Trinisphere is generally pretty bad against Death and Taxes. They don't need to play more than 1 spell per turn, and they have a lot of ways to cheat out extra spells like with SFM and Vial. I take out a chalice if I am on the draw, it's less of a priority for me post board because I have a lot more interaction with their stuff so it's ok for them to play out a bit. Spine comes out because I want to wipe boards with Contagion Engine, which is also cheaper and has the potential to wreck their Aether Vial. Sundering Titan is out because he is expensive and only ever gets one land, Blightsteel is out because he is tough to hardcast when your mana stuff gets revoked and even when you can fetch him they have such cluttered boards that he isn't going to reliably one shot the other guy. One forgemaster comes out because I run fewer targets, and they have so much ability hate that you can't just rely on any one ability so much. For this reason 2x Metalworker comes out, because my curve is so much lower and because I don't need to ramp so much. 2x Monolith also comes out for the same reason. Basically I lower my curve and diversify my activated abilities. All the cards that come in can take their stuff off the board or seriously disrupt them. The lower curve makes mana denial less effective.

Ratchet bomb wipes their board since they are almost all CMC 2, Revoker hits equipment, SFM and Vial. Dismember can take care of a lot of their stuff, and they SHOULD be boarding out mother of runes. DnT needs to answer your threats with swords, so you can get some life back. Tsabo's web hits port, karakas and wasteland and cantrips...it is very strong. Contagion engine is a board wipe that can also disrupt aether vial.

I have taken to leaving in staff, even with reduced metalworkers just because the tapping can be relevant. I could see removing Staff instead of spine, since they do have stuff you would want to spine.

[caprino]

Out: 2x Trinisphere, 2x Metalworker, 2x Monolith, 1x Blightsteel Colossus, 1x Spine of Ish Sah, 1x Kuldotha Forgemaster, 1x Chalice of the Void, 1x Sundering Titan
In: 2x Ratchet Bomb, 3x Revoker, 3x Dismember, 2x Tsabo's Web, 1x Contagion Engine

Trinisphere is generally pretty bad against Death and Taxes. They don't need to play more than 1 spell per turn, and they have a lot of ways to cheat out extra spells like with SFM and Vial. I take out a chalice if I am on the draw, it's less of a priority for me post board because I have a lot more interaction with their stuff so it's ok for them to play out a bit. Spine comes out because I want to wipe boards with Contagion Engine, which is also cheaper and has the potential to wreck their Aether Vial. Sundering Titan is out because he is expensive and only ever gets one land, Blightsteel is out because he is tough to hardcast when your mana stuff gets revoked and even when you can fetch him they have such cluttered boards that he isn't going to reliably one shot the other guy. One forgemaster comes out because I run fewer targets, and they have so much ability hate that you can't just rely on any one ability so much. For this reason 2x Metalworker comes out, because my curve is so much lower and because I don't need to ramp so much. 2x Monolith also comes out for the same reason. Basically I lower my curve and diversify my activated abilities. All the cards that come in can take their stuff off the board or seriously disrupt them. The lower curve makes mana denial less effective.

Ratchet bomb wipes their board since they are almost all CMC 2, Revoker hits equipment, SFM and Vial. Dismember can take care of a lot of their stuff, and they SHOULD be boarding out mother of runes. DnT needs to answer your threats with swords, so you can get some life back. Tsabo's web hits port, karakas and wasteland and cantrips...it is very strong. Contagion engine is a board wipe that can also disrupt aether vial.

I have taken to leaving in staff, even with reduced metalworkers just because the tapping can be relevant. I could see removing Staff instead of spine, since they do have stuff you would want to spine.

i test vs eldrazi...difficult matchup...i lose 4 game

[Rikter]

i test vs eldrazi...difficult matchup...i lose 4 game

Be very aggressive with your combo pieces. Fast wurmcoil engine is a premium hand. Not all the lists play wasteland, so I am very aggressive with city of traitors/monolith hands as well.

[Drake0525]

Hey everyone! I took MUD to the LGS for the first time, went 2-1. Only 3 rounds unfortunately, but it wasn't a bad night.

I took a nasty loss to BUG in round one - Sower of Temptation is one nasty card. The deck didn't exactly fizzle, but it really didn't put up much of a fight in game 1, game 2 he managed to kill every threat I deployed before destroying Staff of Domination with Abrupt Decay, then drawing into 2 Sower of Temptation - he stole my Kuldotha and my Lodestone Golem. 0-2.

Round 2 against Pox, I mull to 4 looking for land, lose game one. Game 2, I open with chalice, then deploy Grim Monolith-Metalworker - Wurmcoil. Win. Game 3, I open with City-Monolith-Monolith-Lodestone Golem. I beat down with Golem, and never find enough land to untap the Monoliths and cast another threat. Still won though. 2-1

Round 3 was against Infect. I grind her down to 7 with Metalworker attacks in game one, she lands an ink moth and attacks for game before I can put it away. I never drew any threats except Kuldotha, which got FOWed (no cavern). Game 2 and 3 I open with Chalice, and grind out careful wins with Ugin. Yes, Platinum Angel did work in game 2, game 3 we went to time (she was playing a little slow), I won on turn 5 with a Wurmcoil and an active Ugin.

Conclusions: I like the deck! It's a blast to play! There are a few things though:
- Blightsteel is an awful topdeck, he's gotta come out. I drew into him G1 against BUG, and Game 1 against Pox, couldn't cast him either time, lost both games, sided him out all night. I can run a different threat in its place, one that doesn't raise the curve quite so high in a Wasteland-heavy meta. I'll puzzle that one out after I've slept on it.

- I really think Lightning Greaves wants to be a 2 of.

- Bug is a real problem. The deck got off to a rocky start, this is true, but Bug has a lot of angles of attack, how do you guys cope with that matchup?

[Rikter]

Hey everyone! I took MUD to the LGS for the first time, went 2-1. Only 3 rounds unfortunately, but it wasn't a bad night.

I took a nasty loss to BUG in round one - Sower of Temptation is one nasty card. The deck didn't exactly fizzle, but it really didn't put up much of a fight in game 1, game 2 he managed to kill every threat I deployed before destroying Staff of Domination with Abrupt Decay, then drawing into 2 Sower of Temptation - he stole my Kuldotha and my Lodestone Golem. 0-2.

Round 2 against Pox, I mull to 4 looking for land, lose game one. Game 2, I open with chalice, then deploy Grim Monolith-Metalworker - Wurmcoil. Win. Game 3, I open with City-Monolith-Monolith-Lodestone Golem. I beat down with Golem, and never find enough land to untap the Monoliths and cast another threat. Still won though. 2-1

Round 3 was against Infect. I grind her down to 7 with Metalworker attacks in game one, she lands an ink moth and attacks for game before I can put it away. I never drew any threats except Kuldotha, which got FOWed (no cavern). Game 2 and 3 I open with Chalice, and grind out careful wins with Ugin. Yes, Platinum Angel did work in game 2, game 3 we went to time (she was playing a little slow), I won on turn 5 with a Wurmcoil and an active Ugin.

Conclusions: I like the deck! It's a blast to play! There are a few things though:
- Blightsteel is an awful topdeck, he's gotta come out. I drew into him G1 against BUG, and Game 1 against Pox, couldn't cast him either time, lost both games, sided him out all night. I can run a different threat in its place, one that doesn't raise the curve quite so high in a Wasteland-heavy meta. I'll puzzle that one out after I've slept on it.

- I really think Lightning Greaves wants to be a 2 of.

- Bug is a real problem. The deck got off to a rocky start, this is true, but Bug has a lot of angles of attack, how do you guys cope with that matchup?

Regarding Blightsteel: It can sometimes be a bummer to draw him, but that is a card that if you play enough matches, you will begin to appreciate what he brings to the table. I tried the list without it, it wasn't great. Nothing else can so reliably one shot someone or change the dynamic of the game the way that card can. This deck can be vulnerable to its own internal inconsistencies, it just comes with the territory, and sometimes BSC is just a dead card, but for what he does I choose to just deal. I side out Blightsteel in some situations, but not because I am worried about the topdecks, it'll be because the other guy plays too many dudes for him to be a 1 turn clock, or because I am morphing to a more control configuration that tries to just remove remove remove and win the longer game or something like that.

Regarding Bug: I'm not sure where you are playing, but I don't think I've seen Sower of Temptation played in any of the large events in the northeast US over the last 2 years. I would disregard that outcome. BUG has a lot more variety within the archetype than many decks I think, the sideboarding depends a lot on what I see, because the planeswalker mix, even the creature mix to some degree, has some variety to it. Warping Wail is something I would leave in against some BUG lists and remove against others, depending on whether I saw Vendillion Clique or not. Ratchet Bomb vs Revoker is another choice that gets made based on what I see.

Regarding Greaves: When I first started playing this deck, I relied heavily on chalice and trinisphere. I had a hard time winning without those cards, and this was because I was new and not really playing all that well. Over time, as I learned the deck better, I broke my reliance on these cards. This may not be the case with you, but I could totally see how having extra greaves would be appealing: you get to protect your dude and go off faster, its a safety net basically. This may not be you, but thats my guess. As you get better at deciding what to keep and what not to keep, you will likely find that having an extra threat is much better than having an extra greaves, that does nothing on its own. I've been playing this deck for 1.5-2 years now, against everything you can think of, never with more than 1 greaves in the 75. It can be done!

[Gnagno]

On the other hand, the more I played blightsteel colossus, the more I hated it.
You have more than 10% having it in your opening hand, and without brainstorm or looting effect is a big mess.
Furthermore is not a win condition as it would look like. Delver may simply chumpblock with shaman and win the race, miracles has swords to plowshares and terminus, bg decks may force you to sacrifice it with liliana (it's a MU when almost everything you have is discarded or destroyed, supposing you have forgemastered it you lost another 2 cards and this option is not as fantamagic as it could sound).
I appreciate much more sundering titan or wurmcoil because even if resolved they still made impact on the board (armageddon or 2 3/3).
Of course there are games when you will curse youreself for not playing it, but they'll be even more times you will curse yourself for not having cutted that cc 12 IMHO.

[kingtk3]

On the other hand, the more I played blightsteel colossus, the more I hated it.
You have more than 10% having it in your opening hand, and without brainstorm or looting effect is a big mess.
Furthermore is not a win condition as it would look like. Delver may simply chumpblock with shaman and win the race, miracles has swords to plowshares and terminus, bg decks may force you to sacrifice it with liliana (it's a MU when almost everything you have is discarded or destroyed, supposing you have forgemastered it you lost another 2 cards and this option is not as fantamagic as it could sound).
I appreciate much more sundering titan or wurmcoil because even if resolved they still made impact on the board (armageddon or 2 3/3).
Of course there are games when you will curse youreself for not playing it, but they'll be even more times you will curse yourself for not having cutted that cc 12 IMHO.

I completely agree: I prefer having another fatty (possibly a second copy of sundering titan or a platinum emperion) than the blighsteel since it feels good only if it has haste but, as Rikter said, multiple copies of graves are just bad.

[Rikter]

On the other hand, the more I played blightsteel colossus, the more I hated it.
You have more than 10% having it in your opening hand, and without brainstorm or looting effect is a big mess.
Furthermore is not a win condition as it would look like. Delver may simply chumpblock with shaman and win the race, miracles has swords to plowshares and terminus, bg decks may force you to sacrifice it with liliana (it's a MU when almost everything you have is discarded or destroyed, supposing you have forgemastered it you lost another 2 cards and this option is not as fantamagic as it could sound).
I appreciate much more sundering titan or wurmcoil because even if resolved they still made impact on the board (armageddon or 2 3/3).
Of course there are games when you will curse youreself for not playing it, but they'll be even more times you will curse yourself for not having cutted that cc 12 IMHO.

Liklihood of having BSC in the opener is 12%, give or take some rounding. But having it in your opener isn't an automatic issue, as there are plenty of hands that will allow you to hard cast it in a reasonable amount of time.

Sure, there are situations where delver can chump and win the race, but aside from Wurmcoil engine the same can be said about any of your threats really and he already has 4 Wurmcoils. Two attacks with BSC are going to win most games, it's hard to have enough toughness to withstand two attacks. Yeah, swords and terminus are things, but nothing is unanswerable. I worry less about Liliana forcing a sacrifice because if they even have the opportunity to do that something has gone wrong.

I'm not gonna say its wrong to not play BSC, but in my experience the benefits outweigh the feel bads.

[Drake0525]

On the other hand, the more I played blightsteel colossus, the more I hated it.
You have more than 10% having it in your opening hand, and without brainstorm or looting effect is a big mess.
Furthermore is not a win condition as it would look like. Delver may simply chumpblock with shaman and win the race, miracles has swords to plowshares and terminus, bg decks may force you to sacrifice it with liliana (it's a MU when almost everything you have is discarded or destroyed, supposing you have forgemastered it you lost another 2 cards and this option is not as fantamagic as it could sound).
I appreciate much more sundering titan or wurmcoil because even if resolved they still made impact on the board (armageddon or 2 3/3).
Of course there are games when you will curse youreself for not playing it, but they'll be even more times you will curse yourself for not having cutted that cc 12 IMHO.If I were to cut Blightsteel Colossus, what would you recommend running in its place?

Myr Battlesphere is interesting, good for situations where I need a lot of bodies on the field, or opposite something like Liliana of the Veil. I also haven't worked Sundering Titan into my 75 yet, this could be a good time to do that.

[Rikter]

If I were to cut Blightsteel Colossus, what would you recommend running in its place?

Myr Battlesphere is interesting, good for situations where I need a lot of bodies on the field, or opposite something like Liliana of the Veil. I also haven't worked Sundering Titan into my 75 yet, this could be a good time to do that.

Either of those would be fine, though I would lean towards titan.

Battlesphere can be good against BUG just because he resists both Lilly and Jace and hits hard, but Titan is also good against them as well for similar reasons. The 1/1s off Battlesphere are less relevant as blockers than it may appear unless you are against Gryxis. Against elves you just get trampled over, against Goyf decks you probably wind up gang blocking anyways to kill the Goyf so Titan can be better because he pressures them via land destruction, can't be killed by Goyf alone and will kill many Goyfs. In many situations its better to have the single fatty and blow up lands than it is the multiple blockers. Titan is much better against miracles, because it does something when it gets Terminused.

[skipjack]

Last week I played MUD for Thursday Night Legacy at Phoenix Comics in Calgary. Here's a short report:

1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Sundering Titan
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Trinisphere
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Platinum Emperion
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Staff of Domination
1 Blightsteel Colossus
3 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Nin
4 Wasteland
SB: 1 Platinum Angel
SB: 2 Warping Wail
SB: 3 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Duplicant
SB: 1 Orbs of Warding
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 1 Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb

Round 1: Stefan - Reanimator

I lose the die roll.
Game 1: He has double Careful Study and FoW backup, but never finds a reanimation spell. Meanwhile, I'm able to land both Sundering Titan and Blightsteel Colossus. (1-0)
Game 2: He mulls to 4 or 5, keeping a hand with a scried Lotus Petal as his only mana source. I keep a hand with the option of CoT into CotV, but opt not to in order to ensure a steady stream of threats. He Entombs a Sire of Insanity in response to my second turn CotV, but I follow up with Tormod's Crypt, Trinisphere, and a chain of Lodestone Golems before he has any chance of recovery. (2-0)
(1-0-0)

Round 2: Jordan - Venser Miracles

I lose the die roll.
Game 1: He FoW’s my CotV, StP’s my first Metalworker, and establishes the Counter-Top lock with Entreat the Angels to stop my Trinisphere and second Metalworker. While I pray for a useful topdeck, he continues to develop his board position with Snapcaster Mage and JtMS, eventually closing out the game with a pack of angels. (0-1)
Game 2: I mull to 5 and fail to stick a single lock piece or threat all game thanks to his double FoW (I believe he mentioned having a third in hand), Counterspell, Snapcaster Mage, and topdeck Terminus. My own Ancient Tombs bring me low enough that all he needs are a few swings with Snapcaster Mage to finish me off. (0-2)
(1-1-0)

Round 3: Steven - BUG Delver

I lose the die roll.
Game 1: He opens with DRS. I open with CotV, which he promptly Dazes. I follow up with Trinisphere a turn later, but he has LotV and Tarmogoyf which close out the game before I can break the lock. (0-1)
Game 2: He forgets to side out a Daze, but it pays off when he uses it to counter my second turn CotV. I establish a soft lock with Lodestone Golem and he surrenders when I follow it up with another threat. (1-1)
Game 3: He opens with DRS. I open with Cloudpost, with Glimmerpost and Trinisphere at the ready for my next turn. Unfortunately, his second turn Hymn to Tourach strips both my Trinisphere and my Metalworker, leaving me with a hand mostly full of threats I can’t cast. My remaining plays only manage to slightly prolong the game and his and Tarmogoyf goes the distance. (1-2)
(1-2-0)

Round 4: Jerome - BUG Delver

I win the die roll.
Game 1: I have a slower Cloudpost start into a steady stream of lock pieces and threats, while he has an early Delver of Secrets to chip away at my life total. Eventually it’s his end of turn and I’m at 7 life with Grim Monolith, Trinisphere, Lodestone Golem, and active Kuldotha Forgemaster to his 6 life and tapped Delver of Secrets, untapped Tarmogoyf, and active DRS. I activate Kuldotha Forgemaster, sacrificing everything except Trinisphere and fetching Steel Hellkite to win me the game. (1-0)
Game 2: My hand full of artifact mana gets locked out by second turn Null Rod followed by multiple Wastelands, and LotV. While I never actually get to do much, the game goes long because he can’t seem to find a threat. I get to 30 life off Glimmerposts, while he manages to ultimate both LotV and JTU (which mills most of my library) before dropping a Tombstalker, which I feel warrants my surrender. (1-1)
Game 3: This game is a grind in which I do a lot of damage to myself trying to resolve lock pieces and threats. He eventually makes the mistake of casting Delver of Secrets while he has FoW and no other blue cards in hand, which allows me to land Kuldotha Forgemaster. He knocks me down to 4 life, but I tinker in Wurmcoil Engine to recover. He drops a Tarmogoyf, but I topdeck a second Wurmcoil Engine to secure victory. (2-1)
(2-2-0)

Comments:

-All notes (other than names and life totals) are from memory.
-All of my opponents were great. In particular, I had blast playing against Jerome, as we were both out of the money and playing for fun.
-I suck at die rolls. Even the die roll I won was actually a re-roll following a tie.
-Some of the other decks in the room: Elves, Enchantress (?), Goblins, Grixis Delver, Landstill, Solidarity, Tezzerator, unknown graveyard deck (Tin Fins? Zombardment?), UR Commander Precon.
-A couple of big mistakes I made were 1) playing Metalworker into Counter-Top despite having just had my Trinisphere countered by it a turn prior and 2) thinking Abrupt Decay is a sorcery. While both mistakes occurred in losses, I don’t think the results would be any different if I hadn’t made them.
-Lightning Greaves didn’t do anything all night, but I didn’t draw them a whole lot either. Personally, I really like having them in the deck, even if I do side them out more than anything else.
-Staff of Nin felt like a wasted slot. I like both of its abilities, but its impact doesn’t seem worth the cost. I’ll replace it by siding in a Wurmcoil Engine.
-Coercive Portal and/or Cavern of Souls might have made the difference in some of the losses.
-I wanted Contagion Engine in the sideboard, but I forgot to include it in my last order and the store was out of stock.

[Gnagno]

If I were to cut Blightsteel Colossus, what would you recommend running in its place?

Myr Battlesphere is interesting, good for situations where I need a lot of bodies on the field, or opposite something like Liliana of the Veil. I also haven't worked Sundering Titan into my 75 yet, this could be a good time to do that.

My forgemaster targets are 1 sundering titan, 4 wurmcoil engine, 1 steel hellkite and 1 spine of ish sah.
I play only treats they don't rely on kuldotha or metalworker. Most of the time I search for wurmcoil, steel hellkite is the sixth cc6 and you can use it to shot the opponent when you have staff+metalworker instead of colossus.
I never played battlesphere because against bg (the MU where it's most performant) wurmcoil does a simil job while gaining life in the same time.

[Fry]

As far as Blightsteel is concerned, I put it in my sideboard about a year ago because there are a lot of decks where it isn't a one shot kill, and I'll side it in against some decks so that I can have that instant win. I play a Battlesphere in my main because I love how it spews dudes, especially in conjunction with Goblin Welder or Daretti.

[Rikter]

As far as Blightsteel is concerned, I put it in my sideboard about a year ago because there are a lot of decks where it isn't a one shot kill, and I'll side it in against some decks so that I can have that instant win. I play a Battlesphere in my main because I love how it spews dudes, especially in conjunction with Goblin Welder or Daretti.

Do you play ravager in that list? Seems like it would be good

[Fry]

No Ravager, but that is an interesting idea... That could be fun with Blightsteel ;)

[Nayashi]

I would like to share the list i played two weeks ago. In a 60 players tournament...ending 10th.
Top 8 was too near cause at the end of the swiss (6 rounds) from 7th to 12th had the same points.
It's a welder version with daretti...

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=20032&iddeck=152553

Main:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Great Furnace
1 Blightsteel Colossus
2 Goblin Welder
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Daretti, Scrap Savant
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 All Is Dust
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Trading Post
2 Warping Wail

Side:
2 Duplicant
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Spine of Ish Sah
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere

Here is a mini report:

1- BGW deadguy ale: 1-1. The 3rd game i needed an extra turn to win...bad luck
2- Miracles: 2-1. The chalice opening is so good!!!
3- Eldrazi: 2-1. Closer match. At 1 life all eldrazi tapped and played and topdecked a kuldotha with greaves in play. Colossus enters and win. Platinum Emperion and wurms made me won the 3rd game.
4- Miracles: 2-0. Chalice and cavern...
5- Team america: 0-2. Mull to 4 one game. other one perfect hand with wastelands, dazes and a killer goyf...no game.
6- Team america: 2-0. Cavern and chalice again. 2 Wurm are too much for him. This time luck was in my side. 15min of round, the faster one.

Last time i played MUD in tournament like that i ended 2nd, so the deck is consistent but the worst is mulligans...a lot of mulls as you know!

Daretti is so awesome in this deck. Welder is so good too, when the game seems lost...and with greaves in play :cool:

But i have to say that most of the times the win condition was to equip colossus to greaves after searched it with kuldotha

All is dust is a pretty card too i like it in main!

Sorry for my basic english.

[skipjack]

I played MUD for Thursday Night Legacy at Phoenix Comics in Calgary again tonight.

1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Trinisphere
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Platinum Emperion
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Staff of Domination
1 Blightsteel Colossus
3 Lightning Greaves
4 Wasteland
2 Cavern of Souls
SB: 1 Platinum Angel
SB: 2 Warping Wail
SB: 3 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Duplicant
SB: 1 Orbs of Warding
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 1 Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb

Round 1: Craig - Grixis Delver

Game 1: He burns me down before I can stabilize. I forgot to factor in the life gain playing Glimmerpost would yield when conceding; combined with the Wurmcoil Engine in hand and the Trinisphere on the board, it may have been enough to stabilize against Young Pyromancer tokens and any remaining burn spells. (0-1)
Game 2: Ratchet Bomb prevents him from committing too many threats to the board while I try to find some of my own. Both of the Metalworkers I play eat bolts, but that just paves the way for Steel Hellkite to come online. (1-1)
Game 3: My deck insists on getting both Kuldotha Forgemaster and Wurmcoil Engine into play, while my opponent’s deck refuses to flip Delver of Secrets. (2-1)
(1-0-0)

Round 2: (I’ll butcher his name if I try to spell it) – Tin Fins

Game 1: I completely lock down the board with CotV and Trinisphere. We both end up in topdeck mode, with me chipping away with a worthless Metalworker, but eventually I find Lodestone Golem and Wurmcoil Engine to seal the deal. (1-0)
Game 2: He transforms his deck with Monastery Mentors and Stoneforge Mystics. I try to get something going, but get denied. An army of monks beat my face in. (1-1)
Game 3: I play Trinisphere followed by Metalworker into Platinum Emperion. This should’ve been enough to win the game, but Batterskull and double Stoneforge Mystic keep me at bay until we go to time. On the last turn of overtime, I swing with both Platinum Emperion and Blightsteel Colossus, but he has a blocker and enough life to survive. (1-1-1)
(1-0-1)

Round 3: Brian – White Weenie

Game 1: I lead with CotV, which counters a Silence the following turn; at this point I have no idea what I’m up against. He only ever manages to resolve Grand Abolisher and Elspeth, Knight-Errant, which, in conjunction with Ancient Tomb, get me as low as 7 life. I tinker out Blightsteel Colossus, equip Lightning Greaves, and swing to win. (1-0)
Game 2: He silences my first couple of turns. Eventually, I resolve Metalworker followed by Wurmcoil Engine and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. (2-0)
(2-0-1)

Round 4: Jesse – Esper Deathblade

Game 1: Trinisphere and Wurmcoil Engine put in work, then, just as a comeback begins to look like a possibility, Ugin, the Spirit Dragon provides a clutch board wipe. (1-0)
Game 2: CotV, Wurmcoil Engine, and triple CoV (Vesuva) put in work. Batterskull and spirit tokens stall out the midgame, but I eventually find what I need to execute a combo finish. (2-0)
(3-0-1)

Comments:

-Changes from my previous list are -2 Vesuva, -1 Staff of Nin, -1 Wurmcoil Engine sideboard, +2 Cavern of Souls, +1 Wurmcoil Engine maindeck, +1 Tormod’s Crypt side. The maindeck changes feel like solid improvements, while the additional Tormod’s Crypt in the sideboard was a metagame call.
-Ignoring CotV and Trinisphere, Wurmcoil Engine was my deck’s MVP tonight.
-Lightning Greaves did exactly what I needed it to do.
-I feel like I was so close to a 4-0 night, but, in reality, I probably would’ve split the last round after a 3-0 start.

[Taramawn]

I would like to share the list i played two weeks ago. In a 60 players tournament...ending 10th.
Top 8 was too near cause at the end of the swiss (6 rounds) from 7th to 12th had the same points.
It's a welder version with daretti...

[...]
Daretti is so awesome in this deck. Welder is so good too, when the game seems lost...and with greaves in play :cool:

[...]



I had already noticed the deck on TC Decks, and I am very interested! Thanks for posting your report. I was wondering - since you only have Great Furnace for red mana to cast Daretti, do you ever get stuck without Red mana (the same question for the Welders, although there you probably can use the Cavern of Souls).

[Bobmans]

I would like to share the list i played two weeks ago. In a 60 players tournament...ending 10th.
Top 8 was too near cause at the end of the swiss (6 rounds) from 7th to 12th had the same points.
It's a welder version with daretti...

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=20032&iddeck=152553

Main:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Great Furnace
1 Blightsteel Colossus
2 Goblin Welder
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Daretti, Scrap Savant
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 All Is Dust
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Trading Post
2 Warping Wail

Side:
2 Duplicant
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Spine of Ish Sah
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere

Here is a mini report:

1- BGW deadguy ale: 1-1. The 3rd game i needed an extra turn to win...bad luck
2- Miracles: 2-1. The chalice opening is so good!!!
3- Eldrazi: 2-1. Closer match. At 1 life all eldrazi tapped and played and topdecked a kuldotha with greaves in play. Colossus enters and win. Platinum Emperion and wurms made me won the 3rd game.
4- Miracles: 2-0. Chalice and cavern...
5- Team america: 0-2. Mull to 4 one game. other one perfect hand with wastelands, dazes and a killer goyf...no game.
6- Team america: 2-0. Cavern and chalice again. 2 Wurm are too much for him. This time luck was in my side. 15min of round, the faster one.

Last time i played MUD in tournament like that i ended 2nd, so the deck is consistent but the worst is mulligans...a lot of mulls as you know!

Daretti is so awesome in this deck. Welder is so good too, when the game seems lost...and with greaves in play :cool:

But i have to say that most of the times the win condition was to equip colossus to greaves after searched it with kuldotha

All is dust is a pretty card too i like it in main!

Sorry for my basic english.
Looks pretty sweet. Might give this a spin at coming tournament.

How did you feel about Warping Wail?
Where you ever short of Red mana?
Was the Red mana req, cloudpost mana and sollands ever in conflict?
Based on your experience, would you change anything on your list?

[Airwave]

I had already noticed the deck on TC Decks, and I am very interested! Thanks for posting your report. I was wondering - since you only have Great Furnace for red mana to cast Daretti, do you ever get stuck without Red mana (the same question for the Welders, although there you probably can use the Cavern of Souls).

I'm actually more wondering if the missing Vesuva's aren't troublesome? The red seems a bit shaky too, but then again it's only 1 card, chances you miss out are very small. Two Welder with 8 red sources should be enough I guess...

[Nayashi]

Red mana's trouble was my first question when i decided to run that list too. But as Airwave says it's just one card and only it represents a problem in an opening hand with no red mana sources...i know that it represents more difficult in a deck that you have to mull too often.
That's the reason to play only one copy cause it's potential is in midgame as you know. I've to say that I played it twice in all swiss, so i didn't know exactly how it can affect to the deck stability and in both cases the game was on my side in that moment,
so i can't help so much in this question. As well as Ugin and trading post were missed all the day!

90% of the times Welder is castered with cavern cause often there is a cotv in play...(i run a playset of caverns).
I often play the colorless version with two vesuva, but as you know artifact lands work so well with kuldotha's ability and i was looking for to get a more midgame powerfull deck and welder/daretti are, in my opinion, a good way to get it.

Warping wail is an excellent card i won't discover the moon (i countered a terminus!:laugh:), but in fact it's a meta question. There's a lot of SnT decks on my meta, as well as confidant, DRS and so one...if i have to make any changes problaby was to put the 3rd warping in main but i don't know for wich card.

And of course SB is always subject to change...

[Bobmans]

i know that it represents more difficult in a deck that you have to mull too often.


This, after some test runs i was confronted with inconsistent openers. Somewhat instable.
While Cloudpost and Goblin Welder are somewhat awkward it also fixes some mid/lategame inconsistency in the manabase.
While i really like the concept i am not really sure i would want to be doing it for real, yet.

[Fry]

I'm doing the Jelly Jam tournament right now with this list and in top 8 (3rd) with my only loss to Miracles... I've been doing a sort-of mini report as the tourney goes for my friends...
4x Daretti, Scrap Savant
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Grim Monolith
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
2x Lightning Greaves
4x Metalworker
1x Mindslaver
1x Myr Battlesphere
1x Platinum Emperion
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Staff of Domination
1x Sundering Titan
1x Thousand-Year Elixir
4x Trinisphere
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1x Wurmcoil Engine
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
4x City of Traitors
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Great Furnace
3x Mountain
Side: 15
3x Whipflare
1x Blightsteel Colossus
2x Defense Grid
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Platinum Angel
2x Spellskite
1x Steel Hellkite
2x Sundering Titan
1x Wurmcoil Engine

Just took down Esper in 3 games.
Game 1 he got 2 TNN and JtMS bounced my Platinum Emperion for exact damage with the 2 Lingering Spirit Tokens

Game 2 Mull to 5. He gets SFM into Batterskull and starts to beat me down a little bit and I stabilize with a Wurmcoil and get a Sundering Titan, then sac the Titan next turn with Forgemaster and proceed to beat down with my 2nd turn Chalice on 1

Game 3 Mull to 6. A lot like game 2, except with him on the play he Thoughtseizes me and takes my Trinisphere and leaves me Metalworker, Monolith, Daretti, and Wurmcoil with only Ancient Tomb for mana, but I have a Mountain on top from the Scry. In the End Sundering Titan takes it down with some help from Forgemaster and Myr Battlesphere against his Germ token and SoFI... Blew up 8 lands between 2 Titans, 1 main, but brought the other 2 in from the board.

Mull to 5 in game 1 on the draw against my Finnish opponent on Miracles and he gets a JtMS and Entreats for 2 and gets rid of my Metalworker before I can do anything fun with it.

Game 2 I mull to 6 on the play and end up being annoying with a Defense Grid lead so I could resolve the Chalice on 1 for turn 2. He Cliques me and lets me keep my hand of Metalworker, Sundering Titan, Staff of Domination, and City of Traitors. He lets me keep all of them when I have that Chalice on 1, Mountain, Furnace, and Citadel in play and he has an EE set on 0, so I take the risk and play the Metalworker and it resolves. Next turn he still doesn't blow up the EE, so no StP, and no 4th land. My next turn I play staff, play Titan and he scoops.

Game 3 Actually not mulling this game! kiki emoticon keep a hand with Battlesphere, Cavern, City, Titan, Defense Grid, Monolith and Citadel. play Citadel turn 1 and pass to play the Defense Grid on turn two to eat a counterspell. Wanted to save my City until I needed it for the "big" play of Titan. T3 I draw a Greaves, but want the Monolith more, so I lead with that, after playing my Ancient Tomb, it resolves so I try the Greaves and that resolves too. Following turn I finally play my City and play my uncounterable Titan to destroy his only plains and 1 of his 3 Islands, he bstorms and swords my Titan and blow up a second Island to take him to 1 land. his turn he plays a SDT, and attacks with the Snapcaster that he got a couple turns earlier and used with his 1st turn Ponder. I am down to 6 mana from my previous play but I have a mountain in my hand to cast the Battlesphere by losing my City, it eats a FoW and a JtMS. He attacks on his turn and misses his land drop. I top deck a Daretti and he scoops.

I am now 3-0 in matches for the second Source tournament.

Only time I've doubled mulled in quite some time with this deck (especially after the scry mull...) I do it twice in game 1 and 3 against Miracles... Game 2 he got slaughtered by a forgemaster into Sundering Titan Had Grid on turn 2 followed by Chalice on 1 on turn 3, turn 4 was Thousand-Year. Ended up destroying 2 Tundra and a Volc with the first trigger his other Volc and Tundra of the second trigger, he miracled terminus for his turn (with the aid of Top) , untap forgemaster with Thousand-Year into a monolith by saccing the titan, itself, and defense grid (had 3Sphere in play) so I could play the other forgemaster still in my hand, which got a Blightsteel win on my turn.

Just won round 5, the last one of Swiss, and I'll be in the top 8 against Burn...
Game 1: He mulls to 6 and I keep my 7 of Trinisphere, Metalworker, Forgemaster, Emperion, Tomb, Mountain, and Furnace and I'm on the play.
I start off with a mountain and pass, his turn Lava Spikes my face... I don't like this match, crap... my turn I shock myself with the Tomb to play Trinisphere (Drew Solemn), his turn he plays Mesa and passes back to me. My turn I draw Ugin, play my Furnace and get Solemn for his nice little Mountain tagalong friend. His turn 3 consists of playing a Sulfuric Vortex when I'm already at 13 and he's at 18 from fetches. Turn 4 for me is a drawn Monolith that I play after attacking with Sad Robot. so I can play Emperion next turn with exactly 8 mana. He takes his turn goes to 16 and passes back to me and down I go to 9, play my Emperion by shocking myself to 7 (Drew MIndslaver), he responds with cracking his fetch he just played and casting PoP to do 4 more to me, I am not at 3, but my Emperion resolves (later I find out he had Fireblast in his hand the whole game). He draws for his turn and scoops to game 2.
Side out the Spine and Mindslaver and put in the 2nd Wurmcoil and the Blightsteel for the moderately good chance of an instant win that can't be blown up by Smash to Smithereens.

Game 2 starts as a double mull for him and I keep a hand of 2 Trinisphere, Metalworker, Lightning Greaves, Cavern, City, and Wurmcoil. He starts off with a suspended Rift Bolt. My first turn I draw Forgemaster and play the Cavern on Constructs. His turn 2 is to burn me with bolt and play Mesa and back to me for Trinisphere (really want to slow him down and proctect my Metalworker) off of my newly drawn Tomb, he responds with fetch PoP... This getting old. His turn 3 is evil with another Vortex on turn three, just like game 1. I go to 9 on my upkeep, draw the Staff and cast Forgemaster going to 7. His turn 4 he hits is 4th land and plays the last card in his hand, Chain Lightning to take me to 4, 2 once my turn starts. Draw Chalice, play my 2nd Trinisphere and sac all 3 artifacts I have to get Platinum Emperion, tap my Tomb for a painless 2 mana, cast Greaves, and can't wait to equip it! His turn he fetches before the draw and the Vortex takes him to 8, he gets a top decked Ensnaring Bridge... I wasn't expecting that and I sided out my only answer to it, the Spine, but that's okay, his Vortex will likely kill him as long as he can't deal with my protected Emperion, which I know he can't even with back to back Smash with my Chalice that I play on 2 when my turn passes back. He said the Bridge wasn't what he wanted, but that it would do. I also play my Metalworker and drew Blightsteel for the turn his turn and he blows up the Metalworker with Chain Lightning, my turn, draw, pass and his vortex kills him.

4-1 and moving to top 8.

Of course if anyone has questions about why I have card X in my deck over card Y, I'll give you guys my reasoned explanation.

I played this for the last Jelly Jam and did pretty well with it, I very rarely have any issues at all in getting a red source, but's partly due to the 3 Mountains, and the Solemn to get one, which is decent card advantage ^_^

I haven't played this deck in a couple months as I'm working on another deck that I'm going to play for this upcoming Jam. Also was working on an additional one until about a month ago, because TKS makes that deck sad... Silly card makes that combo very sad...

[Ganfar]

Hi, I almost has the whole MUD deck now and I had it on a spin in Wensday.

This deck list is taken from a friend of mine so all credd to him:

http://deckstats.net/deck-9710571-e5f949bebf62e8e79408d9bc258808ef.html

Cards that are special in main deck:

Batterskull:
Batterskull is the best threat we have on 5 mana. He give back our lost life from Tomb, vigilance and if the germ dies, we can equip it on on other cretures like Metalworker. Batterskull is really hard to kill as well. Like to have more but there is only room for one off.

Phyrexian Metamorph:
My friend really likes this card but I am not totallt sold yet. You can make cool plays with it. Copy a Stoneforge to get your own Batterskull or make a copy of a flying 20/20.

2 Coercive Portal:
I think portal is better then Staff of Nin, you don't always have 6 mana to cast it, but 4 is not a big problem. The issue with MUD, we can't recover from lost of CA early in the game. Portal help us refill the hand with more card. Reallt like ii in main.

The Games

Match 1: Lands

Oh my god what this matchup is bad for mud. If lands has Explore and wasteland on R1, we lose the game so hard. Even if we can get the advantages, Lands can get a 20/20 from nowhere and win.

I mulligan to 5 both times and he had Wasteland both. GG.

0-1

Match 2: Junk Nic-fit

This match up is favor for MUD, I think.

Game 1: He gets Vet and Cabal me. He gets lands and I don't. No really good follow up from his side.

I played land until I got 8 for Sundering Titan. Destroy his three lands. Then I drew Phyrexian Metamorph and copy Titan. He scoope. :3

Game 2:
I got only land in Void and Portal. I play Void R2. I got it out on R3 and my oppent got out a Vet but nothing else. I drew more lands and Grims. He plays Rhino turn 4 and 5. After turn 5 I draw Stell Hellkite and Kuldotha Forgemaster, and play both. He plays Deed to blow my Grim and Void. Path my Stell hellite as well. Big mistake, I activate Forgemaster to get Sundering Titan and blows his land. I win from there.

1-1

Match 3: BG Loam Pox

This is not a good match up.

Game 1: I lose to 20/20

Game 2: Igot the controll of the game

Game 3: We trade cards and it begins to be stable but then he gets his Dark Depth with Stage. But I have a batterskull that gives me lift. I draw for my turn, a Angel. I play her and give her Lightning Greaves. I have Batterskull with germ and Angel with Greaves. He got a 20/20. I have to attack with my germ to get to over 20 life and then return it to my hand and play it again. So I don't have to ecit my Angel. Nothing happen in 5 turns, I got a more Graves.

After then I drew Forgemaster, Play it with shoes. On his turn he plays Lilana and I have to sac my Germ. But I get my self Staff of Domnination and taps his 20/20 and kill the game

2-1

Match 4: MonoBlue StifleNought

A homebrew with Delver, Stilfe, Dreadnought and Mask of the Mimic.

Game 1: I got daze three times in the row but he only got one land. So it looked really bad for me. He has a flip delver and beats me. But I got a Batterskull and plays it. Then on his turn he plays a Dreadnought and plays Mask of the Mimic to sac one of is non-flip delver to get another Dreadnought to sac it to Dreadnought. I have Spine of Ish Sah and plays it. Kills his Dreadnought and I win from there

Game 2: Slow strat from me, nothing on the borad. He gets a delver out on turn 1 and two more on turn 2. They didn't flip for 4 turns. So I got time to get a Lode stone, Lodestone and Batterskull. Winning the race with one Lodestone. They flip so they trade two lodestone for two flipdelver but my Batterskull germ lives. I win from there.

He told me after that he had Back to Basis in hand but I played Lodestone always one turn be he could cast it #Skills

I really don't like the deck against deck that can get Wasteland back from the grave, otherwise it was a blast to play.

[owerbart]

maybe this is a stupid question, but can Thought-Knot Seer find a place in MUD?

I own pretty much everything in MUD so I thought about giving it a try. How do you feel the Eldrazi Matchup?

[Silverflame]

maybe this is a stupid question, but can Thought-Knot Seer find a place in MUD?

I own pretty much everything in MUD so I thought about giving it a try. How do you feel the Eldrazi Matchup?

It's not a stupid question at all. The card is good at legacy, but I believe it is not that strong enough outside the eldrazi shell. It is too small against goyfs and usually too slow as a lockpiece. You should run it only if your strategy is going stompy. I tested it in a tournament and in a few online games, and it felt underrated on its own.
Best case scenario: I played it against an opponent turn-2 stoneforge mystic, taking away his battterskull.
Worst case scenario: I played it against burn, who showed 2 lands in hand. I died soon after.

[Drake0525]

Good evening gents!

I went to the LGS last night and ran into Titan Post. It was a long match, game one went on for about a half hour. In both games, he generated more mana than I did, held off the aggro plan (by gaining an amazing amount of life, for the most part), and he deployed Ulamog, The Ceaseless Hunger, which I have no way to remove. The real issue is his mana. The Cloudposts and Glimmerposts get bonuses off what is under my control, as well as his. And while I also had a lot of mana to work with, his end-game was just more powerful.

How do you folks approach this match-up?

[Airwave]

Good evening gents!

I went to the LGS last night and ran into Titan Post. It was a long match, game one went on for about a half hour. In both games, he generated more mana than I did, held off the aggro plan (by gaining an amazing amount of life, for the most part), and he deployed Ulamog, The Ceaseless Hunger, which I have no way to remove. The real issue is his mana. The Cloudposts and Glimmerposts get bonuses off what is under my control, as well as his. And while I also had a lot of mana to work with, his end-game was just more powerful.

How do you folks approach this match-up?

I guess this is one of these matchups where your omission of Blightsteel comes to haunt you.... :eyebrow:

Furthermore, Staff of domination is very powerful with all that mana.

But his endgame is better anyway, so you need to tackle him before he reaches high mana counts. Be careful with helping him get there with your own posts!

[Rikter]

Good evening gents!

I went to the LGS last night and ran into Titan Post. It was a long match, game one went on for about a half hour. In both games, he generated more mana than I did, held off the aggro plan (by gaining an amazing amount of life, for the most part), and he deployed Ulamog, The Ceaseless Hunger, which I have no way to remove. The real issue is his mana. The Cloudposts and Glimmerposts get bonuses off what is under my control, as well as his. And while I also had a lot of mana to work with, his end-game was just more powerful.

How do you folks approach this match-up?

I have some experience in this matchup. Chalice on 1 is an important card to stick early, to keep them off of cantrips, crop rotation and candelabra. Having revoker for candelabra post board is also useful.

Locus lands go down in value here, because they can generally do more broken things than you can with the mana. Your best hands are going to be sol lands and monolith into a fast clock. Wasteland is a helpful followup to constrain them a bit.

[skipjack]

I played MUD for Thursday Night Legacy again last night.

1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Trinisphere
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Platinum Emperion
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Staff of Domination
1 Blightsteel Colossus
3 Lightning Greaves
4 Wasteland
2 Cavern of Souls
SB: 1 Platinum Angel
SB: 3 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Duplicant
SB: 1 Orbs of Warding
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 1 Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 3 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Contagion Engine

Round 1: Matt – Infect

Game 1: I keep a hand with lots of prison pieces and acceleration, but no threats. He whittles away with Blighted Agent and Inkmoth Nexus, while I keep topdecking lands. Eventually, I draw Blightsteel Colossus with Lightning Greaves and Metalworker already on the board, but I fall a few mana short of being able to cast it. (0-1)
Game 2: My early CotV gets FoW’d and everything else I do is irrelevant. (0-2)
(0-1-0)

Round 2: Blake – 12-Post

Game 1: My prison pieces come down a bit later than I need them, cross-board Cloudpost shenanigans occur, Lightning Greaves prevent me from executing the Staff of Domination combo, and he assembles all three eldrazi titans to close out the game. (0-1)
Game 2: I lock him out of setting up with CotV and Wasteland, then drop a Wurmcoil Engine. He scoops after the first swing. (1-1)
Game 3: I draw an opening hand with triple Wasteland and a healthy assortment of prison pieces. He’s unable to get off the ground before Lodestone Golem does the distance. (2-1)
(1-1-0)

Round 3: Matt – Elves

Game 1: Lodestone Golem and Steel Hellkite make short work of him. (1-0)
Game 2: Trinisphere and Double Lodestone Golem also make short work of him. (2-0)
(2-1-0)

Round 4: Kurtis – Elves

I get paired down for the final round and since 3-1 is the prize cut-off, Kurtis agrees to give me the win. We still play out the match for kicks.
Game 1: Like the first game of the night, I keep a hand with only prison pieces and acceleration. Fortunately, I topdeck Ugin, the Spirit Dragon after a few turns and nuke his board, resulting in a concession. (1-0)
Game 2: I land a few prison pieces to slow him down, but I just can’t stop him from casting NO into Craterhoof Behemoth and smashing my face in. (1-1)
Game 3: The entire game, my available mana is always about a turn behind where I need it to be. By the time Craterhoof Behemoth and friends finish me off, I’ve got a summoning sick Kuldotha Forgemaster on the board and a Contagion Engine ready to deployed next turn. (1-2)
(2-2-0) (Officially 3-1-0)

Comments:

-Big thanks to Kurtis for letting me get into the prizes.
-Changes from the previous list are -2 Warping Wail sideboard, +1 Ratchet Bomb sideboard, +1 Contagion Engine sideboard. As much as I like the functionality Warping Wail offers, I just don’t feel comfortable with my ability to properly utilize it.
-I made more mistakes than I care to admit.

[GradStudent]

anyone playing legends MUD with Nahiri and Emrakul?

[battousai555]

anyone playing legends MUD with Nahiri and Emrakul?
I'm not playing Nahiri or Emrakul, but I am playing the following list:

(22 LANDS)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Karakas
3 Vesuva

(7 CREATURES)
3 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Wurmcoil Engine

(31 OTHER SPELLS)
4 Basalt Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Coercive Portal
4 Grim Monolith
3 Karn Liberated
1 Staff of Nin
3 Thran Dynamo
3 Trinisphere
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Voltaic Key

SIDEBOARD
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Tsabo's Web
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere
2 Ensnaring Bridge

My meta is pretty damned fair for the most part, which is why I have so many Ulamogs and Wurmcoils in the main. I'm still not sure about the numbers of anything or the contents of the sideboard, but I'm really liking it so far. Wurmcoils put in a ton of work against Delver, Shardless, and Eldrazi, so I think they're going to stay for now. Death and Taxes is a breeze with this list compared to traditional MUD, IMO.

[MGB]

My latest Legend MUD list that has been doing well against everything in online testing except for Lands:



4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Karakas
3 Vesuva
2 Crystal Vein
1 Eye of Ugin

2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
4 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Karn Liberated
4 Thought-Knot Seer

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
2 Basalt Monolith
4 Grim Monolith
2 Thran Dynamo
4 Voltaic Key

SB:
4 Coercive Portal
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Wurmcoil Engine


4 Voltaic Key was the "key" that made this deck even better. It doesn't matter that it sucks with Chalice @ 1 sometimes - the ability to explode your mana production with Monoliths and Dynamos is just too good and leads to many free wins early on.

Thought-Knot Seer MD might be better than Coercive Portal MD in most matchups. It just bridges the gap between early game disruption like Chalice and Trinisphere and the late-game bombs.

Kozilek is BETTER than Ulamog in most situations. You want 3 Kozilek and only 2 Ulamog, imho.

If we don't worry about spot removal by playing TKS MD, it might be better to just play Wurmcoil Engine MD instead of Karn and put Karn in the SB. I don't know yet.

[caprino]

My latest Legend MUD list that has been doing well against everything in online testing except for Lands:



4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Karakas
3 Vesuva
2 Crystal Vein
1 Eye of Ugin

2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
4 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Karn Liberated
4 Thought-Knot Seer

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
2 Basalt Monolith
4 Grim Monolith
2 Thran Dynamo
4 Voltaic Key

SB:
4 Coercive Portal
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Wurmcoil Engine


4 Voltaic Key was the "key" that made this deck even better. It doesn't matter that it sucks with Chalice @ 1 sometimes - the ability to explode your mana production with Monoliths and Dynamos is just too good and leads to many free wins early on.

Thought-Knot Seer MD might be better than Coercive Portal MD in most matchups. It just bridges the gap between early game disruption like Chalice and Trinisphere and the late-game bombs.

Kozilek is BETTER than Ulamog in most situations. You want 3 Kozilek and only 2 Ulamog, imho.

If we don't worry about spot removal by playing TKS MD, it might be better to just play Wurmcoil Engine MD instead of Karn and put Karn in the SB. I don't know yet.
Side in and side out Vs miracle, ant, eldrazi, infect, grixis delver, rug, elfi, team America, death and taxes? Thanks

[MGB]

Side in and side out Vs miracle, ant, eldrazi, infect, grixis delver, rug, elfi, team America, death and taxes? Thanks

vs. Miracles:
-4 Thought-Knot Seer
+4 Coercive Portal

vs. ANT:
no changes

vs. Eldrazi:
-4 Chalice of the Void
-2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
-1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
+4 Ensnaring Bridge
+3 Wurmcoil Engine

vs. Infect:
no changes - may want bridges, i don't know

vs. Grixis Delver:
-3 Karn Liberated
+3 Wurmcoil Engine

vs. RUG Delver:
-3 Karn Liberated
+3 Wurmcoii Engine

vs. Elves:
-2 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
-2 Voltaic Key
-3 Karn Liberated
+4 Ensnaring Bridge
+3 Wurmcoil Engine

vs. Team America:
haven't tested this yet

vs. Death'n'Taxes:
-4 Thought-Knot Seer
+4 Coercive Portal

[caprino]

vs. Miracles:
-4 Thought-Knot Seer
+4 Coercive Portal

vs. ANT:
no changes

vs. Eldrazi:
-4 Chalice of the Void
-2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
-1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
+4 Ensnaring Bridge
+3 Wurmcoil Engine

vs. Infect:
no changes - may want bridges, i don't know

vs. Grixis Delver:
-3 Karn Liberated
+3 Wurmcoil Engine

vs. RUG Delver:
-3 Karn Liberated
+3 Wurmcoii Engine

vs. Elves:
-2 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
-2 Voltaic Key
-3 Karn Liberated
+4 Ensnaring Bridge
+3 Wurmcoil Engine

vs. Team America:
haven't tested this yet

vs. Death'n'Taxes:
-4 Thought-Knot Seer
+4 Coercive Portal

Do you prefer legend mud or big eldrazi list?

[MGB]

Do you prefer legend mud or big eldrazi list?

Haven't even tested big eldrazi list yet. I just logged into MTGThesource today after weeks of not checking it, so I didn't even see that thread until now. I will be testing that list and comparing it to Legend MUD. I just noticed that they were similar in what they were trying to do.

[L10]

4 Voltaic Key was the "key" that made this deck even better. It doesn't matter that it sucks with Chalice @ 1 sometimes - the ability to explode your mana production with Monoliths and Dynamos is just too good and leads to many free wins early on.

Thought-Knot Seer MD might be better than Coercive Portal MD in most matchups. It just bridges the gap between early game disruption like Chalice and Trinisphere and the late-game bombs.
My Voltaic Key propaganda is working.

Yeah, I play three TKS MD and it is house. Basically LSG 5-7. Though, I still like two Portals in my SB and one Staff of Nin in the MD against the grindy matchups

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

Hey there,
So I'm new to this deck and have a couple questions.
First, what are the current types of MUD decks? The primer is outdated and people currently are discussing types I've never heard of like Legend MUD and Big Eldrazi MUD.
Second, what do y'all think about Candelabra of Tawnos in this deck? I mention this because I've noticed the deck runs 10-12 posts in the current version alongside the 8 Sol lands.

[battousai555]

My Voltaic Key propaganda is working.

Yeah, I play three TKS MD and it is house. Basically LSG 5-7. Though, I still like two Portals in my SB and one Staff of Nin in the MD against the grindy matchups
Do you mind posting your current list? I'm going to have to try it out, along with MGB's, to see what's up. I really like my list for my meta, but I think I'm going to start going to another LGS, and I doubt it will be as fair as mine.

[Rikter]

Hey there,
So I'm new to this deck and have a couple questions.
First, what are the current types of MUD decks? The primer is outdated and people currently are discussing types I've never heard of like Legend MUD and Big Eldrazi MUD.
Second, what do y'all think about Candelabra of Tawnos in this deck? I mention this because I've noticed the deck runs 10-12 posts in the current version alongside the 8 Sol lands.

So basically I think the **METALWORKER**thread is getting diluted with these other decks, but that conversation has been had before. The lists you are referencing are more along the lines of a traditional 12post list, just colorless. They play mana rocks instead of card search or crop rotation or candelabra. I look at them more or less as budget 12post lists myself. Personally I think if your list isn't running Metalworker, the card whose name is in the title of the forum, you need a new forum, probably 12 post.

METALWORKER mud doesn't need candelabra, it has Metalworker, you know, the namesake card of this forum... it also typically runs Chalice of the Void which is not fantastic with Candelabra.

[MGB]

So basically I think the **METALWORKER**thread is getting diluted with these other decks, but that conversation has been had before. The lists you are referencing are more along the lines of a traditional 12post list, just colorless. They play mana rocks instead of card search or crop rotation or candelabra. I look at them more or less as budget 12post lists myself. Personally I think if your list isn't running Metalworker, the card whose name is in the title of the forum, you need a new forum, probably 12 post.

METALWORKER mud doesn't need candelabra, it has Metalworker, you know, the namesake card of this forum... it also typically runs Chalice of the Void which is not fantastic with Candelabra.

It's completely unfair to write off these other versions of MUD as "budget cloudpost". They're definitely more MUD decks than 12post decks, because they are still trying to disrupt with 4 Chalice and 4 Trinisphere. That's one of the big pluses that any MUD list has over 12 post - they can play disruption that 12post cannot.

I own playsets of Metalworkers but choose to play the mana rock version of MUD instead because mana rocks are less fragile than Metalworker. There are positives and negatives to both approaches and it's perfectly fair to have this discussion in this thread. But Legend MUD and its ilk are most definitely *not* budget versions of anything or strictly inferior to either traditional MUD or 12post decks. I mean, Legend MUD costs more to put together than traditional MUD anyway.

[Rikter]

It's completely unfair to write off these other versions of MUD as "budget cloudpost". They're definitely more MUD decks than 12post decks, because they are still trying to disrupt with 4 Chalice and 4 Trinisphere. That's one of the big pluses that any MUD list has over 12 post - they can play disruption that 12post cannot.

I own playsets of Metalworkers but choose to play the mana rock version of MUD instead because mana rocks are less fragile than Metalworker. There are positives and negatives to both approaches and it's perfectly fair to have this discussion in this thread. But Legend MUD and its ilk are most definitely *not* budget versions of anything or strictly inferior to either traditional MUD or 12post decks. I mean, Legend MUD costs more to put together than traditional MUD anyway.

Take the budget comment with a grain of salt, we are talking about removing blue dual lands and candelabra of tawnos, thats well over $1,000 off the cost of the deck. I don't use budget as a pejorative, but youre talking about probably $1,500 off the top. I just think that the closest analogue to what your lists are doing is a 12 post list. I also don't think it's inferior, to either Metalworker MUD or the 12post lists that run blue, but Chalice and Trinisphere aren't what make it MUD, and even if we want to debate just how many artifacts it takes to be on MUD, the fact remains that Metalworker is listed in the title of the forum... so I feel like the decks that should be here are decks that, ya know, play Metalworker.

Look at your Legendary MUD list...I count not one artifact wincon in the main, and I don't think that the presence of mana rocks makes you a MUD deck. We aren't MUD because we play mana rocks, we are MUD because we use artifacts to kill people. Really man, look over the Turbo Eldrazi thread and I think you'll agree that what you have there is a Turbo Eldrazi list that uses different disruption and ramp enablers.

[L10]

@LIAEF
If you want to play with Candles, considering: http://www.hareruyamtg.com/jp/k/kD06858S/
It's very good and resilient.


Do you mind posting your current list? I'm going to have to try it out, along with MGB's, to see what's up. I really like my list for my meta, but I think I'm going to start going to another LGS, and I doubt it will be as fair as mine.

Lands (21)
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Darksteel Citadel

Mana (11)
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
3 Mindstone

Threats (17)
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Blightsteel Colossus

Locks (6)
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere

Utility (5)
3 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Nin
1 Phyrexian Metamorph

Sideboard:
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
2 Coercive Portal
2 Trinisphere
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Ratchet Bombs

The SB is dependent on the meta. I am playing with Mind Stone over Voltaic Key since I am no longer playing Than Dynamo.

[Silverflame]

@LIAEF
If you want to play with Candles, considering: http://www.hareruyamtg.com/jp/k/kD06858S/
It's very good and resilient.


That list is beautiful, very insightful.

[MGB]

Take the budget comment with a grain of salt, we are talking about removing blue dual lands and candelabra of tawnos, thats well over $1,000 off the cost of the deck. I don't use budget as a pejorative, but youre talking about probably $1,500 off the top. I just think that the closest analogue to what your lists are doing is a 12 post list. I also don't think it's inferior, to either Metalworker MUD or the 12post lists that run blue, but Chalice and Trinisphere aren't what make it MUD, and even if we want to debate just how many artifacts it takes to be on MUD, the fact remains that Metalworker is listed in the title of the forum... so I feel like the decks that should be here are decks that, ya know, play Metalworker.

Look at your Legendary MUD list...I count not one artifact wincon in the main, and I don't think that the presence of mana rocks makes you a MUD deck. We aren't MUD because we play mana rocks, we are MUD because we use artifacts to kill people. Really man, look over the Turbo Eldrazi thread and I think you'll agree that what you have there is a Turbo Eldrazi list that uses different disruption and ramp enablers.

I don't think it's Metalworker that makes a MUD deck a MUD deck. Somebody made a *mistake* when they put "Metalworker" in the title of this thread. What makes MUD a MUD deck is the presence of the classic prison artifacts (Chalice and Trinisphere) alongside Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors (which do a Mishra's Workshop imitation in Legacy).

Look at the "Shops" archetype in Vintage. Lots of different decks were built around Workshop by lots of different people. Some of them played Metalworker, some of them played more aggro artifact creatures, some of the played Crucibles and all lock pieces and Smokestack. The unifying principle was powering out Chalices and Thorns/Spheres with Workshop and Tomb. The same thing should be the underlying principle behind MUD in Legacy - prison artifacts powered out by Sol-lands.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

MUD = Metalworker Ultimate Destruction. That is historically where the name MUD came from. Having said that, I can appreciate builds without him as he is definitely the weak link in the archetype.

[iatee]

That's actually a backronym.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/5930_The_Complete_MUD_Primer_Part_1_Development.html

From Two Decks To One Mono-Brown Mud
Now Mud didn't really have a name at that time; it was simply called"our Artifact deck" or"the Artifact deck" or it was just referred to as Mono-brown control. It wasn't until December-January when we first started making up names so it actually about five months after we created Mud.

Two names that just didn't have"it."
1 The Collection. This was my idea; I thought it fitted a deck with just artifacts since they're collectible items. Also it played all the expensive collectable jewelry and all other restricted mana artifacts.
2 The Artifact Menace or The Artifact Menace Exposed. Short: AME when spoken of as if 'aim' being 'the aim' the best deck or whatever.

Koen really just wanted a short name because people always tend to speak of deck names in short.

In the train coming back from a Castricum tournament we figured it was about time to give our deck its own identity since decks like Stax and TnT were showing up in our environment. So we started making up more names using the word Mud; things like Muddy this and Muddy that. Can you believe it still took about three more days before I e-mailed Koen with this message?

You know what... How about 'Mud'?

[Silverflame]

Actually saying metalworker is needed for a MUD deck is also a bad argument because nowadays affinity doesn't really runs any affinity cards apart from Thoughtcast (that surely is not what makes it great), and trying to stick to a name usually leads to strange things, like the Chordless decks, Jeskai Black and so on that popped up lately.
Although I agree the "big" ramp decks should have a different post because they play differently from traditional MUD decks, whatever that means, since MUD can go stompy, control, tempo or combo, I'm afraid that might dilute the interaction on both posts. Unless we can fix the Primer's first page to link to all MUD derivations's posts.

[Fry]

Lands (21)
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Darksteel Citadel

Mana (11)
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
3 Mindstone

Threats (17)
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Blightsteel Colossus

Locks (6)
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere

Utility (5)
3 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Nin
1 Phyrexian Metamorph

Sideboard:
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
2 Coercive Portal
2 Trinisphere
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Ratchet Bombs

The SB is dependent on the meta. I am playing with Mind Stone over Voltaic Key since I am no longer playing Than Dynamo.

I really like your main board, but I'm a sucker for a 2 Greaves /1 Thousand-Year split.

[Rikter]

Actually saying metalworker is needed for a MUD deck is also a bad argument because nowadays affinity doesn't really runs any affinity cards apart from Thoughtcast (that surely is not what makes it great), and trying to stick to a name usually leads to strange things, like the Chordless decks, Jeskai Black and so on that popped up lately.
Although I agree the "big" ramp decks should have a different post because they play differently from traditional MUD decks, whatever that means, since MUD can go stompy, control, tempo or combo, I'm afraid that might dilute the interaction on both posts. Unless we can fix the Primer's first page to link to all MUD derivations's posts.

I never said Metalworker was needed to make it MUD, but this thread, as titled, indicates that this is the spot for Metalworker decks.

But even if they changed the title to just generic MUD, those Legendary lists are Turbo Eldrazi. Chalice doesn't make you MUD. Trinisphere doesn't make you MUD, what makes you MUD is the overwhelming amount of artifact threats. A lot of MUD lists now play Ugin, or Wail, maybe a Thought-Knot Seer or 2, but alongside of them are like 16 artifact creatures with which you end the game! A deck whose threats are all Eldrazi, that you ramp into quickly using artifact mana, is Turbo Eldrazi! Like, how can it be anything other than that?

Just because you have artifact mana ramp doesn't mean you are a MUD deck. Again, we now play some devoid stuff, and I wouldn't come out and say that oh, you need to have X artifact threats to be MUD or whatever, but that Legendary list is friggin Eldrazi. All the way. Just, come on man...go read the Turbo Eldrazi forum and tell me otherwise.

[battousai555]

I never said Metalworker was needed to make it MUD, but this thread, as titled, indicates that this is the spot for Metalworker decks.

But even if they changed the title to just generic MUD, those Legendary lists are Turbo Eldrazi. Chalice doesn't make you MUD. Trinisphere doesn't make you MUD, what makes you MUD is the overwhelming amount of artifact threats. A lot of MUD lists now play Ugin, or Wail, maybe a Thought-Knot Seer or 2, but alongside of them are like 16 artifact creatures with which you end the game! A deck whose threats are all Eldrazi, that you ramp into quickly using artifact mana, is Turbo Eldrazi! Like, how can it be anything other than that?

Just because you have artifact mana ramp doesn't mean you are a MUD deck. Again, we now play some devoid stuff, and I wouldn't come out and say that oh, you need to have X artifact threats to be MUD or whatever, but that Legendary list is friggin Eldrazi. All the way. Just, come on man...go read the Turbo Eldrazi forum and tell me otherwise.
So with my list there are only 3 Eldrazi (Ulamogs), 4 Wurmcoils main, and 4 Lodestone + 4 Phyrexian Revokers in the side. Post-board I could potentially have 12 artifact creatures, so does that make my deck MUD? Well, check out the primer: "MUD is a deck archetype that utilizes mana acceleration (through Sol-lands and artifact sources) and artifact based utility/synergies to play other artifact pieces that either lock your opponent out of the game or artifact creatures that outclass most of your opponent’s creatures." Damn, that sounds a lot like *my* Legend MUD list!

I do understand your point, considering how Legend MUD is kind of like a mix between Turbo Eldrazi and MUD, but you must realize that posting our lists to the other subforum will result in much more disapproval than posting them here. The fact of the matter is that our decks share more cards in common with traditional MUD than Turbo Eldrazi, and there really is no other place for us to post that will get any attention.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

You could start another thread in the developing section and call it Colorless 12post or Colorless TurboEldrazi or something like that. I think MUD is characterized by being a Artifact based deck because of cards like Metalworker, Kuldotha Forgemaster, and Lodestone Golem. If you aren't running those cards I don't think very many MUD players would agree that you are playing a MUD deck. And you aren't playing a TurboEldrazi deck either because TurboEldrazi is a deck characterized by its utility lands and green-based land synergy pieces like Primeval Titan and Crop Rotation. Also, isn't Metalworker another name for this deck? If so, running a deck called Metalworker without Metalworker is kind of odd, isn't it? Time will tell which deck is better. So far I've never seen this new variation being played but it might be better due to its ability to run as many of the new and powerful non-artifact threats(Ugin, Newlamog, Newzilek, Thought-Knot Seer) as needed without being anti-synergistic with the rest of the deck. I'm looking to do some testing and see which version I find better.

Edit: I personally don't mind the new variation/"Legend" version being talked about in this thread I'm just stating my opinion on whether or not I think the deck is actually a MUD deck.

[MGB]

Man, Kozilek is a beast. If you guys haven't played him, you're missing out. Just beat a BUG Shardless player where he had Liliana of the Veil and Strix in play, I was dead in two turns, I have nothing but exactly 10 mana and empty hand, I topdeck Kozilek, draw 7, he has to make me sac Kozilek, next turn I just cast Ugin that I drew with Kozilek, wipe his board, and go on to win from there.

[Rikter]

You could start another thread in the developing section and call it Colorless 12post or Colorless TurboEldrazi or something like that. I think MUD is characterized by being a Artifact based deck because of cards like Metalworker, Kuldotha Forgemaster, and Lodestone Golem. If you aren't running those cards I don't think very many MUD players would agree that you are playing a MUD deck. And you aren't playing a TurboEldrazi deck either because TurboEldrazi is a deck characterized by its utility lands and green-based land synergy pieces like Primeval Titan and Crop Rotation. Also, isn't Metalworker another name for this deck? If so, running a deck called Metalworker without Metalworker is kind of odd, isn't it? Time will tell which deck is better. So far I've never seen this new variation being played but it might be better due to its ability to run as many of the new and powerful non-artifact threats(Ugin, Newlamog, Newzilek, Thought-Knot Seer) as needed without being anti-synergistic with the rest of the deck. I'm looking to do some testing and see which version I find better.

Edit: I personally don't mind the new variation/"Legend" version being talked about in this thread I'm just stating my opinion on whether or not I think the deck is actually a MUD deck.

I agree with the above. The short test for MUD I think is, "are you counting artifacts at some point"...this would mean playing either Metalworker, Kuldotha Forgemaster, Ravager or Lodestone. Ravager and Lodestone have you counting for different reasons than Metalworker and Forgemaster, but still, you are counting. Once you start counting like that theres still some other things to consider, mostly presence of spells that cost colored mana. It's possible to play MUD without those cards, like I suppose you could attempt an artifact prison but even then you should probably still be running lodestone.

Personally I characterize turbo eldrazi by the finisher suite and the locus lands, plus other accelerants. I think that the Legends lists are doing much the same thing, but I could see why they might not consider this deck part of the family. Legendary "MUD" should probably have its own forum, if only because the deck really has different decisions and weaknesses.

@MGB I wouldn't be able to play a card like Kozilek, the only non-artifacts in my deck are Ugin and Wail, both of which have effects so strong that they are worth the slight dilution because they impact the board immediately.

[MGB]

Man, I don't want to jump to conclusions here but this latest Legend MUD list with 4 Thought-Knot Seer MD has been just CRUSHING it in testing. Like, I think I've played 30+ matches against a varied field of tier decks like Shardless, Miracles, Eldrazi, Elves, Tin Fins, Reanimator, Grixis, ANT, etc and have not lost a single match. Right now the only matchups that I feel I can lose are Lands and sometimes Death'n'Taxes (and this one is pretty close still - just depends on how many Ports+Wastelands+Revokers they draw).

[Rikter]

Man, I don't want to jump to conclusions here but this latest Legend MUD list with 4 Thought-Knot Seer MD has been just CRUSHING it in testing. Like, I think I've played 30+ matches against a varied field of tier decks like Shardless, Miracles, Eldrazi, Elves, Tin Fins, Reanimator, Grixis, ANT, etc and have not lost a single match. Right now the only matchups that I feel I can lose are Lands and sometimes Death'n'Taxes (and this one is pretty close still - just depends on how many Ports+Wastelands+Revokers they draw).

What did you take out for thought-knot seer?

[L10]

TKS acts as both a threat and lock piece, like a LSG that doesn't die to Bolt, so taking out a couple of Trinispheres and extra top end threats like Steel Hellkite, Platinum Emperion, Sundering Titan, etc, seems like the correct move. TKS not being an artifact is fine due to its efficient mana curve.

[Rikter]

TKS acts as both a threat and lock piece, like a LSG that doesn't die to Bolt, so taking out a couple of Trinispheres and extra top end threats like Steel Hellkite, Platinum Emperion, Sundering Titan, etc, seems like the correct move. TKS not being an artifact is fine due to its efficient mana curve.

I like TKS but playing 4 additional non-artifact cards is kind of a big deal in decks that play Forgemaster or Metalworker

[L10]

I am only playing with three copies and have a Darksteel Citadel to counteract that artifact count. I think it's fine. I am not playing the full playset because it getting taxed by LSG sometimes can be awkward, but that's rare. It's just good to have a Bolt proof 4 CMC tank that also acts as disruption.

[Rikter]

I am only playing with three copies and have a Darksteel Citadel to counteract that artifact count. I think it's fine. I am not playing the full playset because it getting taxed by LSG sometimes can be awkward, but that's rare. It's just good to have a Bolt proof 4 CMC tank that also acts as disruption.

Are you on metalworker ir forgemaster? Not sure if you are in that or eldrazi. In the event that you are on mw/fm do you run any other devoid stuff?

[MGB]

What did you take out for thought-knot seer?

I had 4 Coercive Portal in the MD as a draw engine but swapped them out for TKS because TKS just impacts the game more immediately and provides a blocker against creatures and pressure against creatureless decks (like Storm). It's only kind of bad against Swords to Plowshares decks like Miracles, and even then it will randomly disrupt them long enough for you to land a bomb. Against Miracles I board Portals back in their place.

Here's my current list. It actually feels almost "just right" finally, after many changes:



4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Karakas
3 Vesuva
2 Crystal Vein
1 Eye of Ugin

2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
4 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Karn Liberated
4 Thought-Knot Seer

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
2 Basalt Monolith
4 Grim Monolith
2 Thran Dynamo
4 Voltaic Key

SB:
4 Coercive Portal
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Wurmcoil Engine

[Seraphim_ID]

Here's my current list. It actually feels almost "just right" finally, after many changes

I tried some similar build.
But it was quite vulnerable without Cavern of Souls. I played 3 MD.
-Crystal Vein
-City of Traitors
-Voltaic Key


Also opponents' Aether Vial can put you to the situation when Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger with its on-cast ability is still not enogh.
Just because of that I put 2 All is Dust (also can be nicely played with "can't be countered" effect from Cavern of Souls).

-Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
-Kozilek, the Great Distortion

[MGB]

I tried some similar build.
But it was quite vulnerable without Cavern of Souls. I played 3 MD.
-Crystal Vein
-City of Traitors
-Voltaic Key


Also opponents' Aether Vial can put you to the situation when Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger with its on-cast ability is still not enogh.
Just because of that I put 2 All is Dust (also can be nicely played with "can't be countered" effect from Cavern of Souls).

-Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
-Kozilek, the Great Distortion

Uh, Cavern of Souls is nearly useless in this build. The point is to drop non-creature bombs or creature bombs with cast triggers that can't be countered...

Ugin as a 4-of is basically mandatory. It is the best thing you can be dropping against 80% of the decks in the format, especially the fair decks that swarm the board with permanents.

btw Cavern of Souls does NOT make All is Dust uncounterable.

[Rikter]

I tried some similar build.
But it was quite vulnerable without Cavern of Souls. I played 3 MD.
-Crystal Vein
-City of Traitors
-Voltaic Key


Also opponents' Aether Vial can put you to the situation when Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger with its on-cast ability is still not enogh.
Just because of that I put 2 All is Dust (also can be nicely played with "can't be countered" effect from Cavern of Souls).

-Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
-Kozilek, the Great Distortion


Cavern is useful in actual Metalworker MUD, not eldrazi superfriends. It won't help you cast tribal stuff with the uncounterability because it only does that for creature spells.

[Stuart]

I was on Quinn last night, and played against MUD in the final round. Game 3 went long, and I had solid control of the board. Then, my opponent dropped a Naked Singularity :confused:. I lost shortly thereafter, as I couldn't cast shit and he had enough mana to pay the upkeep on it.

What do you guys think of this card? Too cute, or are there real applications against decks other than Quinn?

[caprino]

hello, I would try to play the version legend mud, someone can help me with lists and tips? thank you

[forestfold]

What do you guys think of this card? Too cute, or are there real applications against decks other than Quinn?

It seriously hampers decks that want to cast spells (besides MUD and Eldrazi). CU of 3 is rough though, unless you have a few cloudposts in play. If you only need a turn or two it seems good, but unless you're playing the red Welder/Daretti list it doesn't seem like you can keep it up for long. It really depends IMO on what you want to get out of the card, and what match ups it would really lock up for you.

[battousai555]

hello, I would try to play the version legend mud, someone can help me with lists and tips? thank you
I played the following list at a local last weekend and went 2-2:

(22 LANDS)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Karakas
3 Vesuva


3 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Thought-Knot Seer

4 Basalt Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
3 Karn Liberated
1 Staff of Nin
3 Thran Dynamo
3 Trinisphere
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Voltaic Key

SIDEBOARD
4 Coercive Portal
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere
4 Ensnaring Bridge

The idea for Thought-Knots in the main, more Ensnaring Bridges, and Faerie Macabre are all thanks to MGB. 1st round I played D&T, which I feel like is certainly favored, but he drew all of his Wastelands and equipment and killed me quickly (and my draws were abysmal) both games 0-2. 2nd round I played a U/R Burn variant with Thing in The Ice, and a quick Chalice on 1 and Wurmcoil Engine won me game 1, while g2 I again had the quick chalice, but gained absolute control with Karn, ruining his hand density and destroying all of his lands (quick 2-0). Round 3 I played against Eldrazi, which I was not at all happy to see. G1 he just beat on me and sniped my Wurmcoil with TKS and I only drew Ancient Tombs. G2 I was able to draw and stick 2 Ensnaring Bridges, which absolutely wreck, and Karn + Wurmcoil sealed the deal. G3 I was able to stick 2 early Wurmcoils, which he just couldn't deal with (2-1). Round 4 I had to play against Lands, which I feel like is by far one of Legend MUD's worst match-ups. He was able to keep me Ported and Wastelanded me multiple times, and assembled the combo rather quickly both games. Despite drawing like absolute crap against D&T, I feel like the deck did well, and I'm happy with the list.

[skipjack]

After not playing for a month, I finally got a chance to test my new MUD list at Thursday Night Legacy yesterday evening. The list is basically Legend MUD, except it abandons the Eldrazi titan plan in favour of retaining more of traditional MUD’s beatdown and prison components; it’s tailored for the combo- and tempo-heavy Calgary metagame.

Muddy Walkers

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Wasteland

4 Grim Monolith
4 Basalt Monolith
2 Hedron Archive

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Coercive Portal

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Karn Liberated
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

SB: 4 Faerie Macabre
SB: 4 Warping Wail
SB: 1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
SB: 2 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 Orbs of Warding
SB: 1 Contagion Engine
SB: 1 Platinum Angel
SB: 1 Platinum Emperion

Round 1: James – Grixis TITI

Game 1: My first 3 big plays are all met with counters, but I manage to resolve Ugin, which secures the win. (1-0)
Game 2: Once again, he has counters for my early plays. He’s able to flip TITI and get a solid hit in; fortunately, I drop Wurmcoil Engine the next turn and trade for it. A few turns later, I resolve Ugin and ping my way to victory. Notable mistakes this game include forgetting Wurmcoil Engine’s death trigger and Coercive Portal’s upkeep trigger. (2-0)
(1-0-0)

Round 2: Mike – UW TITI

Game 1: He does a lot of cantripping and not much else. I resolve Wurmcoil Engine followed by Lodestone Golem and he has no way to stop them. (1-0)
Game 2: He plays JVP, counters my initial lock piece, and plays Vendilion Clique a turn later, taking one Ugin, but drawing me another. My Lodestone Golem meets StP, but my Carnage vote on Coercive Portal goes through, resetting the board. I immediately draw another Coercive Portal, while he lays down TITI. I take a hit, but StP and 4 Cloudposts followed by Glimmerpost have left me with lots of life and a Karn is able to deal with TITI before it does any more damage. My board position quickly becomes overwhelming. (2-0)
(2-0-0)

Round 3: Mario – Grixis Pyromancer

Game 1: My early lock pieces get countered and he’s able to make a few tokens with YP before Karn deals with the problem. We grind for a long time, with me taking lots of damage from his burn and my Ancient Tomb and resolving neither CotV nor Wurmcoil Engine to stabilize. Eventually I remove all his attackers from the board, but I’ve fallen to 2 life. He fails to topdeck a burn spell to finish a few turns in a row, so I take the opportunity to restart with game with Karn.
Game 1.5: I messed up by not exiling anything of my own with Karn, so I have no extra advantage in the remake. I like my odds though and keep a hand with quickly chains CotV and Trinisphere into Lodestone Golem and Wurmcoil Engine, which is too much for TNN, YP, and a few tokens to handle. (1-0)
Game 2: He mulls to a 4 card no-lander and I quickly resolve a pair of Lodestone Golems to dash any hopes he had of recovering his position. (2-0)
(3-0-0)

Round 4: Jeff – Cloudstone Chaos Elves

Only 7 people played tonight and I’m the only 3-0 heading into the last round, so I offer Jeff the concession to get him into the prizes. He chastises me for sacrificing potential payout, but I’m not too concerned about it.

Game 1: I have CotV, Wasteland, and other good stuff, but he has two or three CoS in hand. After a few turns, he has the Wirewood Symbiote and Reclamation Sage lock established and I’m having no luck finding Ugin, so it’s only a short while before he finishes me off. (0-1)
Game 2: I have a strong start involving CotV, Lodestone Golem, and Wurmcoil Engine, but he has CoS, Reclamation Sage and Ensnaring Bridge. I have Ugin, Warping Wail, Wasteland, and couple of Glimmerposts in hand, but City of Traitors has me capped at 7 mana for the next few turns unless I use Warping Wail for a token; unfortunately, he casts Cloudstone Curio, so I have no choice but to use Warping Wail on Reclamation Sage or potentially lose immediately. Over the next few turns, I fail to find the mana I need and he eventually overwhelms me with token shenanigans. (0-2)
(3-1-0)

Comments:

-This list grinds much better than traditional MUD thanks to Coercive Portal and there being fewer ways to disrupt the manabase.
-Despite how fun Kuldotha Forgemaster can be, it feels horribly clunky after toying around with colourless planeswalkers.
-I’m not sold on the sideboard. Faerie Macabres seemed like a good idea with Coercive Portals, but I think there’s enough Dredge running around Calgary that exiling two cards at a time isn’t enough, so I’ll probably switch back to Tormod’s Crypts. The Warping Wails are good, but I don’t know if I really want a full set. Platinum Emperion was only included because I couldn’t figure out what to run in the last slot and it appeared slightly better than Batterskull, Endbringer, Silent Arbiter, Staff of Nin, and Sundering Titan. Phyrexian Revoker, Ratchet Bomb, and Spatial Contortion were all considered for the sideboard, but I rejected them for being redundant/weak/slow/narrow/etc.

If anyone has some sideboard recommendations, I’d love to hear them.

[ZEROorDIE]

After not playing for a month, I finally got a chance to test my new MUD list at Thursday Night Legacy yesterday evening. The list is basically Legend MUD, except it abandons the Eldrazi titan plan in favour of retaining more of traditional MUD’s beatdown and prison components; it’s tailored for the combo- and tempo-heavy Calgary metagame.

Muddy Walkers

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Wasteland

4 Grim Monolith
4 Basalt Monolith
2 Hedron Archive

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Coercive Portal

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Karn Liberated
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

SB: 4 Faerie Macabre
SB: 4 Warping Wail
SB: 1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
SB: 2 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 Orbs of Warding
SB: 1 Contagion Engine
SB: 1 Platinum Angel
SB: 1 Platinum Emperion

Round 1: James – Grixis TITI

Game 1: My first 3 big plays are all met with counters, but I manage to resolve Ugin, which secures the win. (1-0)
Game 2: Once again, he has counters for my early plays. He’s able to flip TITI and get a solid hit in; fortunately, I drop Wurmcoil Engine the next turn and trade for it. A few turns later, I resolve Ugin and ping my way to victory. Notable mistakes this game include forgetting Wurmcoil Engine’s death trigger and Coercive Portal’s upkeep trigger. (2-0)
(1-0-0)

Round 2: Mike – UW TITI

Game 1: He does a lot of cantripping and not much else. I resolve Wurmcoil Engine followed by Lodestone Golem and he has no way to stop them. (1-0)
Game 2: He plays JVP, counters my initial lock piece, and plays Vendilion Clique a turn later, taking one Ugin, but drawing me another. My Lodestone Golem meets StP, but my Carnage vote on Coercive Portal goes through, resetting the board. I immediately draw another Coercive Portal, while he lays down TITI. I take a hit, but StP and 4 Cloudposts followed by Glimmerpost have left me with lots of life and a Karn is able to deal with TITI before it does any more damage. My board position quickly becomes overwhelming. (2-0)
(2-0-0)

Round 3: Mario – Grixis Pyromancer

Game 1: My early lock pieces get countered and he’s able to make a few tokens with YP before Karn deals with the problem. We grind for a long time, with me taking lots of damage from his burn and my Ancient Tomb and resolving neither CotV nor Wurmcoil Engine to stabilize. Eventually I remove all his attackers from the board, but I’ve fallen to 2 life. He fails to topdeck a burn spell to finish a few turns in a row, so I take the opportunity to restart with game with Karn.
Game 1.5: I messed up by not exiling anything of my own with Karn, so I have no extra advantage in the remake. I like my odds though and keep a hand with quickly chains CotV and Trinisphere into Lodestone Golem and Wurmcoil Engine, which is too much for TNN, YP, and a few tokens to handle. (1-0)
Game 2: He mulls to a 4 card no-lander and I quickly resolve a pair of Lodestone Golems to dash any hopes he had of recovering his position. (2-0)
(3-0-0)

Round 4: Jeff – Cloudstone Chaos Elves

Only 7 people played tonight and I’m the only 3-0 heading into the last round, so I offer Jeff the concession to get him into the prizes. He chastises me for sacrificing potential payout, but I’m not too concerned about it.

Game 1: I have CotV, Wasteland, and other good stuff, but he has two or three CoS in hand. After a few turns, he has the Wirewood Symbiote and Reclamation Sage lock established and I’m having no luck finding Ugin, so it’s only a short while before he finishes me off. (0-1)
Game 2: I have a strong start involving CotV, Lodestone Golem, and Wurmcoil Engine, but he has CoS, Reclamation Sage and Ensnaring Bridge. I have Ugin, Warping Wail, Wasteland, and couple of Glimmerposts in hand, but City of Traitors has me capped at 7 mana for the next few turns unless I use Warping Wail for a token; unfortunately, he casts Cloudstone Curio, so I have no choice but to use Warping Wail on Reclamation Sage or potentially lose immediately. Over the next few turns, I fail to find the mana I need and he eventually overwhelms me with token shenanigans. (0-2)
(3-1-0)

Comments:

-This list grinds much better than traditional MUD thanks to Coercive Portal and there being fewer ways to disrupt the manabase.
-Despite how fun Kuldotha Forgemaster can be, it feels horribly clunky after toying around with colourless planeswalkers.
-I’m not sold on the sideboard. Faerie Macabres seemed like a good idea with Coercive Portals, but I think there’s enough Dredge running around Calgary that exiling two cards at a time isn’t enough, so I’ll probably switch back to Tormod’s Crypts. The Warping Wails are good, but I don’t know if I really want a full set. Platinum Emperion was only included because I couldn’t figure out what to run in the last slot and it appeared slightly better than Batterskull, Endbringer, Silent Arbiter, Staff of Nin, and Sundering Titan. Phyrexian Revoker, Ratchet Bomb, and Spatial Contortion were all considered for the sideboard, but I rejected them for being redundant/weak/slow/narrow/etc.

If anyone has some sideboard recommendations, I’d love to hear them.

I really like your list. Very consolidated game plan. I plan on playing eldrazi for the next dual for duels but I may sleeve this up for fun in the week or so. I would definitely make a few tweaks to the sideboard and maybe a couple to the main.

My SB would probably look something like
3 faerie macabre
3 Warping Wail
2 dismember
3 phyrexian Revoker
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Orbs of Warding

[L10]

Hello everyone,

I have been playing Welder MUD recently and am liking it so far. It still needs a bit of tuning though. This is pretty much an all-out combo deck. I really like TYE because of all the activated abilities I have. It also allows me to double pump Mishra's Factory and Double Weld (good vs. DRS). Magus of the Wheel has been pretty good to turn Welder and Daretti on. This deck is a bit weak against combo, hence the 12 anti-combo SB cards, but this deck can also win by Turn 2 and Turn 3 pretty constantly thanks so Lightning Greaves. Scuttling Doom Engine seems a bit out of place, but in a format with a bunch of small creatures, it can kill surpringly quick. It also makes Liliana activation a bit silly. Doom Engine + Welder can also be an out against an Ensnaring Bridge lock.

Deck: https://imgur.com/N4912fj

//Lands (24)
8 Mountain
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Great Furnace
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

//Ramp (8)
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith

//Panzer (13)
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Scuttling Doom Engine
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Blightsteel Colossus

//Utility (15)
4 Goblin Welder
3 Voltaic Key
3 Lightning Greaves
2 Magus of the Wheel
2 Daretti, Scrap Savant
1 Thousand-Year Elixir

//Sideboard
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Whipflare
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Thorn of Amethyst

If ya'll have an ideas, let me know.

Thanks!

[Airwave]

Hello everyone,

I have been playing Welder MUD recently and am liking it so far. It still needs a bit of tuning though. This is pretty much an all-out combo deck. I really like TYE because of all the activated abilities I have. It also allows me to double pump Mishra's Factory and Double Weld (good vs. DRS). Magus of the Wheel has been pretty good to turn Welder and Daretti on. This deck is a bit weak against combo, hence the 12 anti-combo SB cards, but this deck can also win by Turn 2 and Turn 3 pretty constantly thanks so Lightning Greaves. Scuttling Doom Engine seems a bit out of place, but in a format with a bunch of small creatures, it can kill surpringly quick. It also makes Liliana activation a bit silly. Doom Engine + Welder can also be an out against an Ensnaring Bridge lock.

Deck: https://imgur.com/N4912fj

LIST

If ya'll have an ideas, let me know.

Thanks!


Here's my 2 cents:

- 24 lands is a lot for an all-out combo deck, maybe you should tune it back to 22 of something? Needs testing of course.
- Cavern of Souls should replace at least one mountain I guess, maybe even more than one.
- Do you need three voltaic key in here? You have just a few bombs that need 7+ mana..


I've played something similiar in the past, but asked myself the question: is it really better than the all-out combo decks out there? (Dredge, Storm, S&T)
My answer would be: "No" and that's when I added Chalice of the Void again :cool:

It's really nice to play though! MUD-combo is so much fun :smile:

[(nameless one)]

When I used to play Welder MUD combo, I would side in Chalice/Thorn and play Aggro MUD in certain matchups. I would keep the Welder combo package against Midrange for the most part.

Also, Tangle Wire is great in buying you time.

[L10]

Airwave, yeah, 24 lands may be a bit high. It is mainly insurance vs. all the DnT players in my meta, and the meta at EE4. I was thinking to replace Wheel and Daretti with Faithless Looting too, to make it a bit faster. I can see adding the Caverns back in for sure. I just wanted to make sure not to whiff on red mana. I think 4~6 Mountains + 4 Great Furnace may be enough. I want at least two keys. The third key is nice because it allows me to more consistently fetch for both Greaves and Blightsteel in one turn, which can really catch people off guard. And yeah, the deck is extremely fun. That's the ultimate goal of playing a feck like this. Just fo abusive things Magic can offer. I like that I can SB into a more resistance style deck vs. better, faster combo decks too.

(nameless one), that's exactly how I sideboard my deck too. Thanks for reminding me about Tangle Wire. Maybe I will take some lands out and a key like Airwave suggested for a couple.

Lastly, Welder is by far the strongest red card. If I were to just play Welder, I'd play 4 CoS + 4 Furnace, and skip the basics. Then I can afford to play Sundering Titan. So mana case can look something like:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Great Furnace
4 Mishra's Factory
X Wasteland

Thanks for the input, guys.

[darkgh0st]

As the meta has finally caught up to Eldrazi, I feel like MUD is in better position. I have been seeing less decks with Wastelands, or at least not the full set. Also Blood Moon has been coming up quite a lot. It only slows down MUD a little.

[skipjack]

I played the same list as last week (-4 Faerie Macabre, +4 Tormod's Crypt) yesterday evening.

Round 1: Matt - Grixis Burn (Homebrew)

Game 1: His manabase and only major play of Sulfuric Vortex throw me for a loop. Prison pieces and Wurmcoil Engine win the race despite the loss of lifeline. (1-0)
Game 2: I mull low and can't stop his assault. (1-1)
Game 3: Sulfuric Vortex puts us both on a clock, but I manage to stick Trinisphere and follow it up with both Lodestone Golem. He actually manages to almost burn me out, thanks in part to Ancient Tomb, but he misplays by using DRS to burn me on his turn rather than keeping it up as a blocker. (2-1)
(1-0-0)

Round 2: Troy - ANT

Game 1: I keep a slow hand and he has a fast combo. (0-1)
Game 2: I keep a hand without prison pieces, but a turn 2 Wurmcoil Engine. He misplays horribly by chaining Dark Rituals before realizing he doesn't have the right colours to combo. A few turns later, he executes a mini ToA, but it doesn't buy him enough time against my clock. (1-1)
Game 3: I finally keep a hand with a decent amount of hate and win the game off the back of Lodestone Golem. (2-1)
(2-0-0)

Round 3: Eldrick - Colourless Eldrazi

Game 1: I have decent Lodestone Golem start, but he overwhelms me with threats. (0-1)
Game 2: I ramp into Wurmcoil Engine followed by Ugin, which is too much of a clock for him to handle. (1-1)
Game 3: I mull twice into a bunch of lands and have to pray for a topdeck which never comes. (1-2)
(2-1-0)

Round 4: Carlo - Burning Doomsday

Game 1: I lead with CotV@1, but his hand is just a bunch of loti and Burning Wish, resulting in a lot of goblins I just can't deal with. (0-1)
Game 2: Lodestone Golem and Warping Wail secure the win. (1-1)
Game 3: He manages to strip both Trinispheres and a Lodestone Golem from my hand over the course of the first few turns. I find another Lodestone Golem and a Warping Wail which counters a Burning Wish. Lodestone Golem drops him to 13 life, but he has SDT and Doomsday, setting up Shelldock Isle at 6 life. I swing and play Wurmcoil Engine to counteract the hidden Emrakul, but he included CoV in his pile, so I lose. (1-2)
(2-2-0)

[Deisss]

Do some people have tested Tamiyo's Journal?

I quickly did, on aggro matchup I pack it when I pack Ensnaring Bridge and it seems to shine (especially tutoring Ugin)...

[MGB]

So I played Legend MUD at GP Columbus.





4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Karakas
3 Vesuva
2 Crystal Vein
1 Eye of Ugin

2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
4 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Karn Liberated
4 Thought-Knot Seer

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
2 Basalt Monolith
4 Grim Monolith
2 Thran Dynamo
4 Voltaic Key

SB:
4 Coercive Portal
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Wurmcoil Engine


On Day 1 I went 5-4:

R1: 2-0 vs Merfolk (ensnaring bridge was huge here)
R2: 2-0 vs. ??? (forgot this one completely, might have been Omnitell)
R3: 1-2 vs. Junk (he had hymn to tourach and wastelands)
R4: 2-0 vs. Miracles (basically a bye, crushed him soundly)
R5: 1-2 vs. Shardless BUG (wurmcoil was not enough - baleful strix blocked it and then tokens died to removal spells)
R6: 2-0 vs. Aluren (lock pieces did the work)
R7: 2-0 vs. Metalworker MUD (legend mud is a better mud than metalworker mud)
R8: 0-2 vs. Elves (i had the win with ugin but stupidly took green suns zenith instead of natural order with TKS when i had trinisphere and chalice on board and he had just dryad arbors and next turn he Natural Orders for Progenitus)
R9: 1-2 vs. Sneak'n'Tell (i dont konw how i lose this match with 4 ensnaring bridge in sb and 2 karakas md and other disruption, but i did)

I was disappointed to not make Day 2 but I had some losses that could have been wins with more tight play, but some matchups are just nigh unwinnable without lots of luck (Junk, BGx stuff).

So the next day I registered the same deck with minor tweaks (-1 Key + 1 Thran Dynamo MD and -1 Portal +1 Tormod's Crypt SB) for the Super Sunday Series Legacy event and went 6-2:

R1: 2-0 vs. Stoneblade (one of the easiest matchups this deck has)
R2: 2-0 vs. Miracles (Easy victories if your deck draws mana and bombs because they have next to zero mana disruption)
R3: 2-0 vs. Reanimator (Easy if you draw Faerie Macabre)
R4: 2-0 vs. Omnitell (Lock pieces do all the work)
R5: 1-2 vs. Grixis Delver (He forced and dazed lock pieces G1 on the draw, I won G2 with Ugin wipe, G3 he wasted me and I couldn't get enough mana to cast Wurmcoils)
R6: 1-2 vs. Miracles (I hated losing this because Legend MUD should never lose to Miracles but he got me with Mentor beats in both games I lost before I could stabilize - in G3 he had Mentor turn 3 then Blood Moon Turn 4)
R7: 2-0 vs. Miracles (This guy was a weaker player that the R6 opponent and I probably won G1 when I shouldn't have as he had me under Jace lock but gave me lands to stabilize into Ugin for some reason)
R8: 2-1 vs. Omni'Sneak (Weird games in which I Show and Telled Kozilek but stupidly played Basalt Monolith needlessly the turn earlier when I could have kept it in hand and countered his Cunning Wish, but then he let me exile Sneak Attack in G3 when he could have griselbranded even though I had Ensnaring Bridge in play)

I didn't Top-8 but landed just outside the top8 which was good enough for 2 booster boxes, so at least I didn't go away empty-handed this weekend despite feeling disappointed by my overall performance.

I learned a bit more about the deck. It has some raw power and is fun to pilot but it's really too weak to the Bx strategies (Grixis Delver, Junk, Jund, BGx Rock, Lands, BUG anything). The combination of Wastelands and discard or Wastelands and Abrupt Decay can be too much to overcome some times. While Miracles is overall an overwhelmingly positive matchup for this deck, it *can* lose to the more aggro Miracles versions which play Snapcasters and Monastery Mentor because they can generate enough pressure that you have to Ugin wipe or die. So overall, I would need to figure out how to fix the Grixis / Jund / BUG matchups and improve the Mentor Miracles matchup.

[Wilkin]

Mgb, did u have 3 wurmcoil stuck in hand game 3 and end he game with just a voltaic key in play? U mention junk, which is close enough to my deck (deadguy) I beat a deck that matches your list in round 3. I play mud once in a while and I agree that junk, jund, dead guy etc are all rough matchups. Just wondering how do u like this legends mud version to the metalworker forgemaster one?

[Stuart]

Congrats on the day 2 performance, MGB! Those poor, poor Miracles players :laugh:



I learned a bit more about the deck. It has some raw power and is fun to pilot but it's really too weak to the Bx strategies (Grixis Delver, Junk, Jund, BGx Rock, Lands, BUG anything). The combination of Wastelands and discard or Wastelands and Abrupt Decay can be too much to overcome some times. While Miracles is overall an overwhelmingly positive matchup for this deck, it *can* lose to the more aggro Miracles versions which play Snapcasters and Monastery Mentor because they can generate enough pressure that you have to Ugin wipe or die. So overall, I would need to figure out how to fix the Grixis / Jund / BUG matchups and improve the Mentor Miracles matchup.

While I'm intrigued about Legends MUD, your concern about Bx strategies makes me a little less interested in the deck. BUG-type decks are also Metalworker-MUD's worst matchup, and I'd hoped/thought the point of the Legends build was to fix that.

[battousai555]

While I'm intrigued about Legends MUD, your concern about Bx strategies makes me a little less interested in the deck. BUG-type decks are also Metalworker-MUD's worst matchup, and I'd hoped/thought the point of the Legends build was to fix that.
I've moved the 4 Coercive Portals back into the mainboard solely because I hate losing to BUG decks, and I feel like I can go pretty even with both Shardless BUG and BUG Delver, assuming I draw decently. I've come back from an early double Hymn and Wasteland on more than one occasion with Legend MUD thanks to Coercive Portal, and I feel like traditional MUD lists would have no hope at all after being torn apart like that.

[darkgh0st]

I've moved the 4 Coercive Portals back into the mainboard solely because I hate losing to BUG decks, and I feel like I can go pretty even with both Shardless BUG and BUG Delver, assuming I draw decently. I've come back from an early double Hymn and Wasteland on more than one occasion with Legend MUD thanks to Coercive Portal, and I feel like traditional MUD lists would have no hope at all after being torn apart like that.

I've lost count on how many times I got double hymned and still came back with the traditional MUD list. MUD in general has a good top deck game. Portal is a good way to double that goodness.

[Stuart]

I've moved the 4 Coercive Portals back into the mainboard solely because I hate losing to BUG decks, and I feel like I can go pretty even with both Shardless BUG and BUG Delver, assuming I draw decently. I've come back from an early double Hymn and Wasteland on more than one occasion with Legend MUD thanks to Coercive Portal, and I feel like traditional MUD lists would have no hope at all after being torn apart like that.

Interesting. I'm playing 2 Portals in my main and 2 in the board, which are in there to help against BUG, Jund, Shardless, etc. Maybe I'll trying bumping up to 3 or 4. Though I suppose they're more impactful in the Legends build, as you're more likely drawing into cards that will completely flip the board state.


I've lost count on how many times I got double hymned and still came back with the traditional MUD list. MUD in general has a good top deck game. Portal is a good way to double that goodness.

I've lost count too! Oh wait, I've never come back from double Hymn, so my count never started :cool:. My bad.

#

On a different note, is anyone else getting whiffs of combo coming back in a big way? Lots of local players are on SnT and Storm variants. If that's true elsewhere, maybe MUD can make a resurgence.

[MGB]

Mgb, did u have 3 wurmcoil stuck in hand game 3 and end he game with just a voltaic key in play? U mention junk, which is close enough to my deck (deadguy) I beat a deck that matches your list in round 3. I play mud once in a while and I agree that junk, jund, dead guy etc are all rough matchups. Just wondering how do u like this legends mud version to the metalworker forgemaster one?

Hey Wilkin. Yes I was your opponent.

I like Legends MUD because it tends to have a better Miracles / Stoneblade matchup than Forgemaster MUD, and hardcasting Ulamog and Kozilek is just way more fun than anything traditional MUD can do. =)

btw it was nice playing against you - you were one of the more gracious opponents I had the whole weekend.

[darkgh0st]

On a different note, is anyone else getting whiffs of combo coming back in a big way? Lots of local players are on SnT and Storm variants. If that's true elsewhere, maybe MUD can make a resurgence.

Not so much storm but definitely SnT. I sleeved up MUD two weeks ago over Eldrazi... but I ended up playing stax instead. Lol. I don't see MUD being big again unless we get some pretty comparable toys to Eldrazi in an upcoming block. Otherwise, MUD will always be an established deck that has its own dedicated set of players.

[forestfold]

I had a fantastic time visiting Seattle for GP Sea-Tac last fall, and I was stoked about my deck.
Since then I have not even played enough legacy to have to resleeve it, but regardless I decided
to fly to Colombus and battle. I was recently in the hospital for a very serious condition, and
on top of that I moved about 300 miles away to just outside of Boston with my wife. So Magic has
definitely been on the back burner for me.
Despite that I played in GP NY with an outdated deck (drawing waaay too much), got in a little
goldfishing and read a lot of articles in preparation, because it was what I had available to me.
I took a hard look at the last few dozen legacy tournaments, and while the Eldrazi deck was doing
very well Delver variants were learning how to combat it, and Storm and Show & Tell were still
lurking around. I don't particularly like the Delver match up, but to my eyes the Eldrazi MU
seems good for us since Metalworker lives more often than not, and they have either very few or
sometimes zero answers to Ensnaring Bridge and Platinum Emperion. Endbringers are annoying, but
they can be dealt with. Legends MUD is something I am interested in trying at some point, but I
only own one Karn Liberated and I feel like their MU against Eldrazi is worse than Cloudpost MUD,
as a Thoughtknot Seer seems a lot worse (to me) against that deck since they can't pick their
threats out with Forgemasters.


This is what I sleeved up for the tournament ::
4 Metalworker (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Metalworker)
4 Lodestone Golem (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Lodestone%20Golem)
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Lodestone%20Golem)
3 Wurmcoil Engine (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Wurmcoil%20Engine)
1 Steel Hellkite (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Steel%20Hellkite)
1 Platinum Emperion (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Platinum%20Emperion)
1 Sundering Titan (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Sundering%20Titan)
1 Blightsteel Colossus (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Blightsteel%20Colossus)

4 Chalice of the Void (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Chalice%20of%20the%20Void)
1 Voltaic Key (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Voltaic%20Key)
4 Grim Monolith (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Grim%20Monolith)
1 Lightning Greaves (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Lightning%20Greaves)
4 Trinisphere (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Trinisphere)
1 Staff of Domination (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Staff%20of%20Domination)
1 Staff of Nin (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Staff%20of%20Nin)
1 Spine of Ish Sah (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Spine%20of%20Ish%20Sah)

2 Cavern of Souls (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Cavern%20of%20Souls)
4 Cloudpost (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Cloudpost)
4 Glimmerpost (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Glimmerpost)
4 Ancient Tomb (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Ancient%20Tomb)
4 City of Traitors (http://deckbox.org/mtg/City%20of%20Traitors)
3 Vesuva (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Vesuva)
3 Wasteland (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Wasteland)

SB ::
:: 1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Ugin,%20the%20Spirit%20Dragon)
:: 1 Karn Liberated (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Karn%20Liberated)
:: 1 Contagion Engine (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Contagion%20Engine)
:: 1 Duplicant (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Duplicant)
:: 1 Witchbane Orb (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Witchbane%20Orb)
:: 1 Trading Post (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Trading%20Post)
:: 1 Crucible of Worlds (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Crucible%20of%20Worlds)
:: 2 Ensnaring Bridge (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Ensnaring%20Bridge)
:: 2 Thorn of Amethyst (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Thorn%20of%20Amethyst)
:: 1 Phyrexian Revoker (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Phyrexian%20Revoker)
:: 1 Pithing Needle (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Pithing%20Needle)
:: 2 Grafdigger's Cage (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Grafdigger's%20Cage)


I tried an Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger at one point and it was decent. Harder to find than Spine
of Ish Sah though, but very effective against non-StP decks. But then, so is BSC or Emrakul. I
moved the Karn and the Ugin to my sideboard, as I liked having access to the planeswalkers but
they were often getting stuck in my hand. Staff of Nin hit the maindeck, being able to get an
extra card a turn is a great thing to have access to and there are so many 1-toughness creatures
to take down. You can also win around things like Ensnaring Bridge, Moat and Endbringer stopping
your attacks, all be it very slowly. It did happen once though. I added an extra Bridge to the
sideboard because of Eldrazi, and I added the Contagion Engine I was sorely missing in Seattle for
Elves and the rise of Monastery Mentor as a kill condition in Miracles. I also decided on a
Duplicant for anti-Emrakul weaponry.


Round 1: BYE
Round 2: BYE
Round 3: 2-1 vs Mike Combs on Eldrazi
Round 4: 2-0 vs Charles League on Eldrazi
Round 5: 2-1 vs Michael Bearmon on Miracles
Round 6: 2-1 vs Daniel Humphreys on Show & Tell
Round 7: 0-2 vs Paolo Cesari on 4-Color Delver
Round 8: 0-2 vs Adrian Sullivan on Death & Taxes
Round 9: 1-2 vs Kevin McKee on Nic Fit
Round 10: 2-1 vs Hunter Nance on Grixis Delver
Round 11: 2-0 vs Wayde Lawson on Deathblade
Round 12: 1-2 vs Joe Rittiner on Eldrazi (would have been a draw but I scooped)
Round 13: 2-0 vs Tristan Raitano on Grixis Tezzerator
Round 14: 1-2 vs Cody Burton on LED Dredge
Round 15: 2-1 vs Brian Lang on ANT


Sleep in special is probably the best magic-related invention since the storm mechanic. Check in
time for 2 byes was 11h15 which was ridiculously late, but I got coffee and an omelet from the
North Market. It may not be Reading Terminal Market, but it was more than sufficient. A lot of
great restaurants in the area, I am looking forward to going back for Eternal Weekend this year.
But seriously, I checked on my companions and then saddled up mentally for some battling.

Whenever I had time I took some quick notes, so these are my rounds as clearly as I can recall
them. I may have some details mixed up or wrong, but this is the best I could do.

Round 3 : I came ready to beat the inferior colorless deck, and we immediately locked horns. My
opponent wins the die roll, and starts with a chalice for 1. I had kept a decent midrange hand
with Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, 2x Ancient Tomb, greaves, a wurmcoil, and a Chalice. Unfortunately
my opponent plays a Jitte and a Matter Reshaper to my post-post-greaves-tomb and I don't bother
with a Chalice (should have played it on 2 since that barely affects me once Greaves are in play).
He has 4 counters on his Jitte when I play wurmcoil and equip, which does bother him a bit. He
spends counters and 2 Matter Reshapers to kill it and the deathtouch token, I play another
wurmcoil to buy some time but my draws are mostly blanks and he gets 2 Reality Smashers which make
wurmcoil merely a speedbump. I sideboard +1 Contagion Engine, +1 Duplicant, +1 Crucible, +2
Ensnaring Bridge, +1 Pithing Needle, -4 Trinisphere, -2 Chalice of the Void.
Game 2 I am on the play and my turn 1 Metalworker looks pretty good compared to his turn 1 Jitte.
My turn 2 is Platinum Emperion to his Matter Reshaper. Turn 3 is double Lodestone Golem, and
while he mounts a defense it is not nearly enough. SB stays the same.
Game 3 He is back on the play with a decent aggressive start, but no Jitte. I have a pair of
Forgemasters and a Wurmcoil to hold him back. He tries to break through but when he is all but
tapped out I EOT forgemaster for Blightsteel Colossus and he only has a Matter Reshaper to block.
BSC spends another 3 turns demolishing his creatures and then him.

Round 4 : I win the die roll and start off with a turn 1 Metalworker off Monolith. My opponent
plays an Eldrazi Temple and dismembers it. I draw and play a second Metalworker, and he has no
answer besides a Matter Reshaper. I cast a Sundering Titan to no effect, except that he can't
possibly kill it, and a few lesser Eldrazi get in the way before I dispatch him. I sideboard the
same as last match, +1 Contagion Engine, +1 Duplicant, +1 Crucible, +2 Ensnaring Bridge, +1
Pithing Needle, -4 Trinisphere, -2 Chalice of the Void.
Game 2 he is on the play and he has a very aggressive start. He gets me down to 12 and I lay down
Ensnaring Bridge. I play lightning greaves and platinum emperion as well, and he looks a bit
hopeless. He continues to build his board while I bide my time. After a turn or two he copies my
Emperion with a Phyrexian Metamorph, which proves to be a huge problem. When he is unfavorable
tapped I Forgemaster out BSC (sac'ing the Bridge) and attack, sneaking in 7 infect damage. He
attempts to get the Jitte charged enough to kill it, sacrificing some pawns in the process. He
decides to go for the Emperion and try to kill me in response, by first using 3 Jitte counters to
give Emperion -3/-3 (boots had moved to BSC because he only had 4 Jitte counters) and then trying
to Dismember it without black mana. I pointed out that he could not pay the alternative cost
because of his Platinum Emperion copy which was an illegal action, so he chooses to block with it
next turn to free up his use of phyrexian mana. He blocked only with it though, forgetting he had
already taken 7 infect and the trample damage killed him because he forgot Emperion's stats. Even
had he done the math right, he would have died in another turn or two anyway...

Round 5 : I win the die roll and keep a decent 7 with a Chalice on 1. My opponent has no Force,
and promptly dies to Lodestone Golems because he can't find a Terminus being cut off from Top.
Good times. I sideboard +1 Ugin, +1 Karn, +2 Thorn of Amethyst, +1 Revoker, +1 Pithing Needle, -1
BSC, -1 Emperion, -2 Wurmcoil, -1 Trinisphere, -1 Staff of Domination. I keep an okay 6 with
Needle, Chalice, Cavern, Tomb, Glimmerpost and Cloudpost, ship a Tomb to the bottom. I play
Needle on Top turn 1, a chalice on 1 turn 2 which gets Counterspell'd. A turn 4 Jace goes
unanswered as I draw lands and the wurmcoil (which gets Force'd) until he ults and I scoop. Same
SB, we both tentatively keep 7 cards. I have a turn 1 Chalice for 1 into a turn 2 Thorn, turn 3
Thorn. He plays a blank Snap and wastes a sol land. He slowly beats on me until I find a
Metalworker instead of a land. He tries a StP which I obviously counter with Chalice and then
slap down a Sundering Titan to leave him with actual no lands. He dies shortly afterwards.

Round 6 : My opponent wins the roll and starts with delta for an island, ponder. Shuffles. I
play a Cloudpost, he plays tarn for an island, double cantrip. I play another Cloudpost and a
Grim Monolith, holding it back. He plays another island and another cantrip and passes. I play a
City and try a Forgemaster. It gets Force'd. He plays fetch into Mountain into Sneak Attack. I
follow up with a Cavern and a Sundering Titan, and he has no red. He finds a lotus petal next
turn for a griselbrand to block because he is at 7 life when it lands, but finds no more red
sources. I SB +1 Duplicant, +1 Revoker, +1 Pithing Needle, -1 Staff of Nin, -1 Trinisphere, -1
Wurmcoil. Game 2 I kept an okay 6 with Chalice, Metalworker and lands. He forces the turn 1
Chalice and I don't draw much to cast with the Metalworker. He casts lotus petal into through the
breach for Griselbrand, draws 14, and then through the breaches Emrakul to mop up. Game 3 I keep
2x Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, Vesuva, Chalice, Metalworker and Forgemaster. He mulls to 5. I play
Cloudpost into Cloudpost and resolve Chalice on 1, and then Metalworker into Forgemaster and
monolith to fetch staff and combo him out turn 5, he scoops before I finish as he knows the drill.

Round 7 : He wins the die roll, plays a trop and a delver. I have City, Cavern, Metalworker,
Wurmcoil, Cloudpost and Monolith, leave a second City on top. He Dazes the turn 1 Monolith.
Flips delver, beats, replays trop and DRS I think. I play Cavern into Metalworker. He plays a
Wasteland, wastes the City and exiles it to bolt the Metalworker. Another Wasteland follows and I
never have enough mana for the Wurmcoil and I die. I sideboard +1 Trading Post, +1 Crucible, +2
Thorn of Amethyst, -1 Staff of Domination, -1 Voltaic Key, -1 BSC, -1 Spine of Ish Sah, -1 Staff
of Domination. I keep a 7 with 3x Cloudposts, Crucible, Wurmcoil, Lodestone & BSC (so a 6). He
also keeps a 7, and opens with a DRS. I play a second post, and he plays Young Pyromancer and
exiles a fetch to cast Cabal Therapy naming Chalice. No hits, but he flashes it back to get my
Wurmcoil. Crucible gets forced and a post gets wasted, and I never get to do anything
significant. Hand was too much of a gamble, I should have shipped it looking for chalice for 1 on
turn one. Still need to find one more good sideboard card for this match up.

Round 8 : Adrian Sullivan gets the die roll, and I have no idea what he is playing. I assumed
blue something, but he opens with Plains. I play Cloudpost into Glimmerpost into Monolith into
Metalworker. He StP's it and untaps to play Thalia (he kept a controlling hand I guess). I add
another Monolith, and a Forgemaster, which also gets StP'd. A Revoker for my Monoliths slows me
down, and he starts drawing creatures as I draw all my lands and no top end. I sideboard +1 Ugin,
+1 Contagion Engine, +1 Crucible, +2 Ensnaring Bridge, +1 Phyrexian Revoker, +1 Pithing Needle, -1
BSC, -1 Sundering Titan, -3 Trinisphere, -1 Voltaic Key, -1 Wurmcoil. I promptly mull to 5 after
seeing a no land 7 and a one vesuva 6, I keep Wasteland, Ensnaring Bridge, Monolith, Staff of Nin
and Metalworker. My scry leaves a Cloudpost on top. It doesn't matter much though, he plays
Plains into Vial, then Port into Thalia, and once Vial starts adding creatures Port and a
wasteland mean I never have more than 2 mana available except for the Monolith leading to a
Metalworker that gets exiled. Good times. Feeling a little bummed at this point.

Round 9 : My opponent wins the die roll and sticks with a 7, his first play is a Savannah into a
Veteran Explorer. My hand is 2x Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, Sundering Titan and some lock pieces. I
cast Sundering Titan turn 4 nailing three of his duals. He Deeds away a Lodestone Golem and some
lock pieces but he doesn't find an answer to the Titan in the next 3 turns. I sideboard +1 Ugin,
+1 Karn, +1 Trading Post, +1 Pithing Needle, -1 BSC, -1 Voltaic Key, -2 Chalice of the Void. I
keep a decent 6 with 2x Trinisphere, Wurmcoil and land. My opponent plays Veteran Explorer into
Cabal Therapy, flashing it back with the explorer. And then another one, stripping my hand
completely. I draw a bunch of land while he gets a Garruk Relentless, a Sorin, Solemn Visitor & a
Master of the Wild Hunt. I play a Karn to stem the bleeding but it is first overwhelmed, and then
so am I by Meren of Clan Nel Toth which starts bringing back creatures and was crazy against me.
SB +1 Contagion Engine, -1 Trinisphere. Game 3 I keep a Post hand with a Wurmcoil and a
Forgemaster, and he has Therapy again for my Wurmcoil and a Path for my Forgemaster. I draw more
blanks and he draws threats, his token army is hard to overcome.
Day 1 started great, the 0-3 at the end of the day to barely make day 2 was a bit demoralizing.
Good food and drink and chilling with some folks gets my head back into the game though.

Round 10 : I shuffle up and lose another die roll, good times. I'm playing Hunter Nance but I
don't recall ever seeing him play Legacy. I kept 2x Ancient Tomb, 2x Wurmcoil, Monolith,
Metalworker, and leave a City on top. He plays fetch into Delver, dazes my Monolith, bolts my
Metalworker, Forces a Wurmcoil and Therapies the other one away. That plus the Ancient Tombs and
this game is over quickly. I sideboard +1 Trading Post, +1 Crucible, +2 Thorn of Amethyst, -1
Staff of Domination, -1 Voltaic Key, -1 BSC, -1 Spine of Ish Sah, -1 Staff of Domination. Game 2
I keep a hand with Chalice on 1, Trinisphere, Steel Hellkite and lands. Chalice on 1 totally
shuts him down, besides double Wasteland for my Cloudpost/Tomb. I get the entire playset of
Glimmerposts on the field before finding an City of Traitors to finally cast Steel Hellkite. He
had played a Young Pyro to start some pressure on me, but Hellkite nukes the tokens and then him.
Same SB, Game 3 he Cabal Therapies for Chalice turn 1 and gets one. I draw one and play it, and
he tilts pretty hard. He uses a Force on a Monolith to try and slow me down, and Wastes my sol
land. I play a Vesuva copying one of his lands and then a City to play Metalworker. His bolt is
countered, and I make 12 total mana the next turn to cast Wurmcoil and Staff of Nin. He concedes
and bitches about it while avoid eye contact. Good(?) start to the day.

Round 11 : I win the die roll and keep a decent 7 with Chalice for 1 on turn one. My opponent
draws a card, plays a blue fetch, thinks about it for a minute and scoops his cards up. I assume
he is playing a Storm deck and I just ruined his hand, or he is trying to bluff that and is on
Delver. I decide not to sideboard, and we move into game 2. He keeps a 6 his scry stays on top.
I keep a slow 7 with Chalice and two sol lands. He plays a Deathrite Shaman and passes. I play
City into Chalice for 1 and it resolves. He sighs, and attacks. Then wastes my City. I play a
Glimmervoid, and another City into a Metalworker. He tries a Swords, I counter it, he tries a
Brainstorm, I also counter it. Metalworker casts Trinisphere and Lodestone Golem and he extends
his hand.

Round 12 : My opponent wins the die roll and he has an aggressive opener with Eldrazi. He has no
removal though, and I have a turn 3 Wurmcoil. He has an Endbringer in response to hold it off. I
cast another one turn 5 though, and a Lodestone Golem. The Wurmcoils require him to trade off and
I whittle him down to nothing. I sideboard +1 Contagion Engine, +1 Duplicant, +1 Crucible, +2
Ensnaring Bridge, +1 Pithing Needle, -4 Trinisphere, -2 Chalice of the Void. I decide to keep an
okay 7 (Tomb, Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, Wasteland, Forgemaster, Metalworker, Chalice). He has
Temple plus Tomb for a turn 2 Thoughtknot Seer which takes my Metalworker and punishes me hard.
He plays an Eye of Ugin, Jitte and a 5/5 Endless one next turn to my Forgemaster. Dismember and
another Endless One finish me off as I draw nothing notable. Game 3 I keep a slower Cloudpost
hand with Ensnaring Bridge, which I play turn 2. A Witchbane Orb and a Metalworker join it. I
drew a Chalice shortly after but he snuck a Jitte in before I could land it for 2. He is sneaking
in attacks by minusing with Jitte while I have 1 card in hand. I finally run out of lands to play
and add 2 Lodestone Golems to the board so he can no longer attack. Sadly, we go to time before I
can find a Forgemaster or he can find a way around Bridge. I decide to be a nice guy and scoop to
him though, despite it easily going either way since neither of us have a hand.

Round 13 : I won the die roll, but mull to 6 and decide to keep 2x Cloudpost, Vesuva, Chalice,
Key and Forgemaster, and I leave a Glimmerpost on top of my library. Cloudpost pass. He plays
Gitaxian Probe, Underground Sea, Chrome Mox and taps for a Dimir Signet. Awkward for me. I play
Another Cloudpost and play my Key. He plays a Dack Fayden but no land, and steals my Voltiac Key.
I draw Staff of Nin, play the Vesuva to copy a Cloudpost and tap out for Staff, pinging Dack. He
plays a Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas to follow up after finding another land, makes my Key a 5/5 and
swings. I draw a Cavern off staff and a Blightsteel per turn. I see my window now. I play
Glimmerpost, Forgemaster and Chalice for 1 and pass. He makes his Signet into a 5/5 and attacks
me down to 9, plays another land. I untap, draw 2 cards, play cavern naming Golem and tap them
all for Blightsteel, then sac the other artifacts for boots and kill him.
I sideboard +1 Karn, +1 Trading Post, +1 Crucible, +1 Phyrexian Revoker, +1 Pithing Needle, -1
BSC, -1 Staff of Domination, -3 Trinisphere. (worried about him stealing BSC) He sides in
Thopter combo plus Ensnaring Bridges when he has the choice to side in Leyline of the Void/Helm
combo, which we decide afterward was very wrong. We have an extremely long game with me
Forgemastering through most of my library for Spine and to get Spine back. He gets Crucible +
Academy Ruins + double Ensnaring Bridge out, which I am having problems getting through. He has
mana issues early on which cost him 2 Forces plus 2 Tezzerets. He finally steals the Spine with a
Dack to stop me from blowing his stuff up, so I search up Staff of Nin and Voltiac key and slowly
poke him to death, keeping him off Thopter with Needle and a Chalice of the Void for 2.

Round 14 : My opponent is super pleasant, he loses the die roll, and proceeds to pleasantly stomp
me. I play a Chalice on 1 turn 1. He plays City of Brass, LED, and cracks it discarding 2
Gravetrolls and casts breakthrough for 1 to avoid my chalice, and dredges about 45 cards including
all 4 Bridges and 3 Narcomebas, which sac to Therapies to make an army and then Dread Return
Flamekin Zealot to kill me right off. I sideboard +1 Duplicant, +1 Witchbane Orb, +2 Ensnaring
Bridge, +2 Thorn of Amethyst, +1 Revoker, +1 Pithing Needle, -1 BSC, -1 Sundering Titan, -1 Staff
of Domination, -1 Staff of Nin, -1 Voltaic Key, -1 Spine of Ish Sah, -1 Lodestone Golem, -1
Trinisphere. Game 2 I open with Chalice on 1, then follow up with a Thorn, then a Trinisphere,
and a Forgemaster active on turn 5. He cracks and LED and flashes back a Looting to try and get
enough zombies to kill. Dread Return gets a zealot, and in response I sac
Trinisphere/Thorn/Forgemaster for Emperion, and his attack is sad. I cast another Forgemaster and
another lock piece or two for fodder. He dredges some more and Returns a Griselbrand, and draws
down to about 9 cards in his library looking for another land so he can flash back Ancient Grudge,
but he has milled them all it turns out.
Game 3 I mull to six for City, Glimmerpost, Graf Cage, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridge, Metalworker.
He again has an LED with Cephalid Colosseum into a Breakthrough for zero, discarding 3
Gravetrolls to dredge and finds the fourth troll in the first dredge. He proceeds to flip most of
his library with a Cabal Therapy to nail the cage in hand. My outs are 2nd Cage, or Grim Monolith
to cast the Bridge and hope that is enough to last me until I can discard more, as it would stop
him from Flamekin's bumrush. I don't draw either of those, and he Returns a Griselbrand and the
Zealot to absolutely murder me.

Round 15 : My opponent wins the die roll. He keeps 7, I keep an okay 7 with Metalworker and big
dumb creatures. He probes and ponders. Not looking good. I play a land. He uses and LED,
Petal, 2 Cabal Rituals and a Dark Ritual with Dark Petition to kill me. Good to know. I side +1
Witchbane Orb, +2 Thorn of Amethyst, +1 Revoker, +1 Pithing Needle, -1 Steel Hellkite, -1 Staff of
Domination, -1 Voltiac Key, -1 Spine of Ish Sah, -1 Sundering Titan. On the play I drop turn 1
Chalice. He plays 3x LED, Lotus Petal, land, pass. I play a Lodestone Golem and he tries a few
CMC 1's which I counter, as I beat him down to nothing with the Golem. Game 3 we both keep 7 and
he starts with Cabal Therapy for Chalice. I show him Needle, Trinisphere, Metalworker, Lodestone
Golem, Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, City of Traitors. I play Cloudpost and pass. He ponders and
passes. I guess that he kept the hand entirely because of Therapy, and I play Glimmerpost into
Metalworker. He casts two more cantrips and passes. I make a ton of mana and cast Trinisphere,
Lodestone Golem and Wurmcoil all in the same turn. He casts an LED for 3, and cracks it to cast a
Lotus Petal for three, and then laughs and extends his hand. A very good sport. Turns out he
mixed up Revoker and Needle and was playing cautiously, but it wouldn't have matter too much as he
was drawing air.


All in all I felt like I played fairly well for being very rusty. My sideboard could have been a
bit better, and I certainly could have played tighter. MUD still feels good against the field
though, and I was happy with my performance. Ended up at 156th (would have been about 100th to
110th if I had stuck the draw). I think Legends MUD might be better in the mirror, but I
definitely like Cloudpost MUD vs. the field over Legends.

[Airwave]

Thanks for the report! :smile:

[enmitee]

long time lurker, just read this. Thanks for the awesome report! :) love the sideboarding notes on old school MUD. Are there any changes you'd like to make moving forward? Maybe some Coercive portals?

[Wilkin]

Hey Wilkin. Yes I was your opponent.

I like Legends MUD because it tends to have a better Miracles / Stoneblade matchup than Forgemaster MUD, and hardcasting Ulamog and Kozilek is just way more fun than anything traditional MUD can do. =)

btw it was nice playing against you - you were one of the more gracious opponents I had the whole weekend.

Thanks. And you as well. All of my opponents were cool.

That is true about casting a big Elrazi dude. I've seen it with Karakas. Super amusing to watch. Kozilek attack, annihilate and then be bounced at end of opponents turn to be cast again.

[MGB]

@ forestfold: I just wanna say that the Eldrazi matchup for Legend MUD is not as bad as you think because of 4 Ensnaring Bridge and 3 Wurmcoil Engine in SB.

[forestfold]

@ forestfold: I just wanna say that the Eldrazi matchup for Legend MUD is not as bad as you think because of 4 Ensnaring Bridge and 3 Wurmcoil Engine in SB.
Aye, that probably helps quite a bit. If you don't have turn 2 or 3 Bridge though that presents a definite problem. I think both of our MU's are favorable (although my game 1 is probably a lot better than yours) so it is just a matter of our hands matching up against theirs and TKS.

I also find it amusing that some folks think casting Eldrazi is more fun that Tinkering, because I personally enjoy Cloudpost MUD so much because I have 5 copies of everything in my deck if I play my cards right, and finding my best answers for my opponents strategy is what I find so enjoyable. I'm a sick bastard though, because my favorite archetype is prison, so this is not surprising... :laugh:

[skipjack]

@forestfold: Nice report and solid finish.

I took Muddy Walkers out for another spin at yesterday’s Thursday Night Legacy. The maindeck is unchanged and the current sideboard is as follows:

SB: 3 Warping Wail
SB: 1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Torpor Orb
SB: 2 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 Orbs of Warding
SB: 1 Contagion Engine
SB: 1 Platinum Angel
SB: 1 Platinum Emperion

Round 1: Jordan – RUG Delver

Game 1: We both take some mulligans, but I’m able to drop CotV right off the bat. He plays a Tropical Island, thinks the situation over, and then scoops. (1-0)
Game 2: I sideboard thinking he’s on infect, but try not to switch too much out in case I’m wrong. He gets down an early Delver of Secrets and Dazes my Grim Monolith, slowing my mana development to a crawl. I try to resolve a Lodestone Golem, but it’s met with FoW. I can’t recover before Tarmogoyf and a pair of Insectile Aberrations finish me off. (1-1)
Game 3: I sideboard again and keep a reasonably strong hand that lacks sol lands. He plays a Nimble Mongoose and Dazes my Grim Monolith once again, slowing me down considerably. The next turn I’m able to get down a Trinisphere, but he finds three mana and an Ancient Grudge which also takes out the Coercive Portal I’m banking on for recovery. A second Coercive Portal is met with Krosan Grip, paving the way for his beaters to finish me off before I can recover. (1-2)
(0-1-0)

Round 2: Stefan – UR OmniTell

Game 1: He plays a second turn S&T into Emrakul and I’m one mana short of answering it with Karn. (0-1)
Game 2: I lock up the board and heat him down with double Lodestone Golem. (1-1)
Game 3: I stick Lodestone Golem, but he’s still able to resolve S&T into Omniscience. Fortunately, he doesn’t have anything to chain off it, so I have a little time. His next draw is just a land and I’m able to stick Karn the following turn to take care of the Omniscience. Lodestone Golem finishes him off. (2-1)
(1-1-0)

Round 3: Jason – BUG Nic Fit

Game 1: I know he’s on Nic Fit, but I’m on the play, so I keep a risky hand of six land and a guaranteed third turn Wurmcoil Engine. I actually draw a second Wurmcoil Engine, but he has his core combo, so I’m put in topdeck mode. Lodestone Golem makes an appearance, but it’s easily dealt with by LotV. Titania eventually hits the board and I scoop. (0-1)
Game 2: I keep a hand with a lot of bombs and not a whole lot of mana. Luckily, an early Thoughtseize takes Lodestone Golem rather than Grim Monolith and I waste no time sticking Coercive Portal to start grinding. I’m kept off creatures, but his threats amount to Ashiok, which whiffs twice and is dealt with by Ugin, and JtMS, which is answered by Karn. He decides my planeswalkers are too hot to handle and scoops. (1-1)
Game 3: He leads with Veteran Explorer. I play CotV ASAP to keep him off his disruption. He gets out a pair of Baleful Strix. I drop Lodestone Golem. He does something irrelevant. I wipe his board with Ugin. He fails to find an answer. I win. (2-1)
(2-1-0)

Round 4: George – LED Dredge

Game 1: I know he’s on Dredge and lead with CotV@1 to keep him off draw/discard spells. He uses his cleanup step to discard a dredger. I develop my mana for a bit and get a Coercive Portal into play, but his graveyard continues to grow. After a couple of turns of draw step dredging, he uses Cephalid Coliseum to really churn through his deck. I wipe his board with Ugin at one point and later land Wurmcoil Engine and a second Coercive Portal, but it’s just not enough without a second Ugin to stabilize the board now that he’s out of Ichorid fodder. After he finishes me off, I find out the top card of my library was in fact the second Ugin I so desperately needed. (0-1)
Game 2: I have a second turn CotV and the ability to quickly ramp into multiple Wurmcoil Engines. He has a slow start. Once I drop a third Wurmcoil Engine and Tormod’s Crypt, he scoops. (1-1)
Game 3: He mulls low and plays a land and Putrid Imp, so I take the opportunity to deny him mana and draw spells by using Wasteland on it right away; this ends up being a mistake, as he plays a second land right away. I play Ancient Tomb and CotV, continuing to take beats while he cycles dredgers. After a couple of turns, he’s starting to get rolling and I’ve fallen a little low, but I have five mana on the board and an excellent hand of Wurmcoil Engine, Platinum Angel, Ugin, and Warping Wail. During his end step, I create a token with Warping Wail and use it to both cast Wurmcoil Engine and exile his Bridge from Below. He quickly finds another Bridge from Below and swings with his board, but his damage isn’t yet enough to counteract lifelink, so he also Dread Returns a medium-size GGT. Based on how much of his deck I saw in the first game, I’m under the impression he may be running only a single Dread Return, so I figure the coast is clear and cast Platinum Angel. He realizes he doesn’t have any answers and accepts defeat. (2-1)
(3-1-0)

Comments:

-This was a nerve-racking set of matches. I’m pretty sure the one match I lost was supposed to have been the easiest of the bunch.
-For the first time in months, I don’t believe I missed any triggers.

[IPreferBagels]

Hey guys, new to The Source and the deck itself. I played in my first legacy event yesterday at Hotsauce Games in Westmont.

Here is the list I played

4 Chalice of the Void
1 Coercive Portal
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
1 Staff of Nin
3 Trinisphere
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Vesuva
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Karn Liberated
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Sideboard
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Sundering Titan
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere

Round 1 VS Eldrazi (2-0)
I arrive a little bit late, but not late enough to receive a game loss.Game 1 I lose the die roll, and he goes turn 1 chalice on 1 off of a city of traitors and I'm afraid he's gonna beat me with the Eldrazi menace, he plays threats, but eventually I get a hasted blightsteel and swing for the win. IN: +1 Ensnaring Bridge +2 Ratchet Bomb +2 Spine of Ish Sah OUT: -3 Trinisphere -2 Chalice (I liked chalice on 2 against Jitte, not sure if this is right) Game 2 is interesting, as I land an early ensnaring bridge that holds back his dudes, eventually I get a staff of domination with ~6 posts in play and get to draw a ton of cards, forgemaster+ 2 spines closed the game out quickly afterward.

Round 2 VS Grixis Delver (2-1)
Game 1 I lose the die roll again, and he fetches into T1 Delvers, I start slow with a cloudpost on turn 1 into ancient tomb trinisphere on turn 2, which gets dazed, he quickly runs me down with elemental tokens and burn. IN: +3 Thorns +1 Trinisphere +2 Phyrexian Revoker +2 Ratchet Bomb OUT: -2 Forgemaster -1 Coercive Portal -1 Staff of nin -2 Metalworkers -1 Karn -1 Ugin (I realize later that this is bad boarding, but I still won) Game 2 I land an early wurmcoil and it's lights out for him. Game 3: I forget what happened in this game, but I remember I landed and early lock piece and beat him to death. Afterwards while talking to my opponent, I realized that I should have left Ugin in, as he destroys the matchup.

Round 3 VS U/R Delver (2-0)
Game 1 I lose the die roll (again), and mulligan down to a hand of 5 lands (is this right? Four would probably have been better?) and scry a wurmcoil to the top, he deploys threats, and I manage to cast a wurmcoil, but not before he manages to double bolt me for the win. IN: +3 Thorns +1 Trinisphere +2 Ratchet Bomb OUT: -1 Blighsteel -1 Karn -1 Coercive Portal -1 Staff of Nin -1 Staff of Domination Game 2 I try to play a turn 2 trinisphere, but it gets dazed. I don't draw anything and die to double delver. Overall, I don't think my deck (or me) is well prepared for this matchup, any advice on boarding?

Round 3 VS Grixis Delver (with green for sideboard stuff) (2-1)
Game 1 I lose the die roll (where is my luck?) and try to play a turn 1 chalice that gets Dazed, and then a t2 Trinisphere that gets forced, I then lose to delvers and elemental tokens, such is the life of getting tempo'd out. IN: +3 Thorn +1 Trinisphere +2 Phyrexian Revokers +2 Ratchet Bomb OUT: -1 Karn -1 Staff of Domination -1 Staff of Nin -1 Coercive Portal -1 Blighsteel -2 Metalworker -1 Grim Monolith Game 2: I play a turn 1 cloudpost into a turn two Glimmerpost and Trinisphere, which resolves, I then land a wurmcoil engine off of posting up, and he scoops. Game 3: This was, by far, the best game of magic I played all night (maybe ever). I keep a hand that is light on lock pieces, but ramps into Forgemaster+Greaves quickly, so I keep. I land a turn 2 lightning greaves into turn 3 metalworker and try to cast Kuldolthat forgemaster, which gets countered. He has some threats in play and applies some pressure. Then next turn I topdeck a Platinum Emperion and stick it, it resoves and I suit it up with greaves. Having no answer for it, we get into a 10 turn topdeck war, with me being unable to close out the game due to baleful strixes. He manages to draw into and cast an Ancient Grudge on my Greaves, but dosen't have enough mana to flash it back. I'm hellbent, and know if he can kill Platinum Emperion he can get through with enough dudes to kill me the next turn (he had 3 delvers and 3 Young Pyros). I slowroll my draw step and what do I find? Chalice of the void, I'm ecstatic, I cast it for two and pass the turn, knowing he has no answers left in his deck. I eventually get into a forgemaster, and ratchet bomb to clear up his tokens and swing for the kill.

(3-1)

Overall, I'm pretty happy with my performance. I definitely could've boarded better and Karn needs to be another Ugin, as he is ridiculous against Delver decks. The Mishra's Factories didn't do much, and I want to buy some wastelands (mostly a budget thing). I can't wait to play some more legacy and kill some more delvers!

[Stuart]

Welcome to MUD! Excellent showing for your first night on the deck, especially if your meta already has an Eldrazi player and is used to playing against Chalice decks. I've found UR Delver to be a rough matchup, as they're just so fast. Ancient Tomb makes things awful, and they've got the threat of Price looming. I think you boarded correctly; you just want to hope you get a quick Chalice and threat down.

List looks good. I think you're right to switch Karn for Ugin, and that Wasteland is potentially better than Factory (though honestly, that land slot tends to be the weakest in our deck. Lands that tap for 1 really aren't ideal, but there isn't anything better to play).

How did 4 Vesuva work for you? I find they're painful with City of Traitors, so I only run 2.

[IPreferBagels]

I think 4 vesuva is definitely where you want to be, I'm no expert, but I think you need the full 12 posts for the most stable manabase, vesuva can also copy Glimmerpost if you're in a tough spot facing aggro decks. It's up to you though

[Rikter]

I think 4 vesuva is definitely where you want to be, I'm no expert, but I think you need the full 12 posts for the most stable manabase, vesuva can also copy Glimmerpost if you're in a tough spot facing aggro decks. It's up to you though

A higher vesuva count causes problems in Metalworker MUD, mostly because of the following scenarios:

1) Vesuva + City of Traitors hands

2) T1, play your Vesuva target, T2 sit with Vesuva in hand and pass because your target got wastelanded

3) In any board state that does not involve cloudpost, Vesuva is a tempo hit

I've got mine cut down to 2 Vesuva at this point and it still causes issues from time to time.

[skipjack]

More Thursday Night Legacy results with Muddy Walkers:

Round 1: Carlo – Grixis Tezzeret (1-1)
Round 2: Austin – LED Dredge (2-1)
Round 3: Unknown – Belcher (2-0)
Round 4: Kayla – Sneak and Show (2-1)
(3-0-1)

Comments:

-The deck performed really well tonight.
-I used Karn’s ultimate in the first game of the night, restarting the game with Mox Diamond, Polluted Delta (useless), and Wurmcoil Engine on my side of the board. My opponent had turn 1 Ensnaring Bridge, but another Karn made short work of it.
-I made the biggest mistake of my life in game 3 against Tezzeret when I activated Ugin’s ultimate while a Notion Thief was on the field. For some reason I thought Notion Thief’s ability was ETB and only lasted until EOT. RTFC! I still managed to maintain control of the game, sticking triple CotV on 0, 2, and 4 to lock out pretty much all of his threats, but I couldn’t find a way to bypass ensnaring bridge before we ran out of turns.
-After the humiliating draw, I got a lot more focused and started making much tighter plays.
-I managed to win game 1 against Belcher despite 10 goblins showing up on turn 1. Wurmcoil Engine is the bomb!
-I may not have won game 3 against SnS if my opponent hadn’t made it very obvious she was keeping a risky hand full of Lotus Petals, although I’m fairly certain double CotV on 0 and 1 would have been my opening play no matter what.

[Stuart]

Played MUD in the SCG Classic in Dallas this weekend. Went 5-3, which I was fairly happy with. I've got a report up (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30802-Dallas-of-the-Void-a-Classic-SCG-Weekend), if you're interested.

Some takeaways:
- Trinisphere was probably the MVP. My matches against ANT, Omni, and UR Delver were cake-walks thanks to the card. On the flip side, though, I lost a game to RUG off my own Trinisphere.
- Metalworker was the runner up for MVP, though! This felt really good, because lately I've been lukewarm on Metalworker (what with all the Abrupt Decays, etc around). It won me my matches against Lands and Aggro Loam: despite them running the P Fire engine and Abrupt Decay, my Metalworkers survived and let me keep playing through all the Wastelands and Tabernacles.
- I lost to DnT round 2. I wasn't too bummed about that, as I consider it a rough matchup. However, my DnT opponent felt otherwise: in his experience, MUD is a scary opponent, as an unanswered Metalworker lets us go nuts. That got me thinking: maybe I've been approaching my DnT matches wrong. I've been in the habit of boarding in cards for grindy games (Crucible, Coercive Portal, Karn, etc), but maybe instead I should just be mulling into combo hands and trying to kill them ASAP with a Metalworker or Forgemaster. I think I've avoided that in the past for fear of StP, but they only have 4 . . .
- There was a LOT of DnT and Lands in the room.
- I didn't play any Miracles! And I didn't play any Miracles in the last big event (a 7-round 1K) I played MUD in :mad:

[KokorHekkus]

Been a lurker here for a while.

Will be going to Strasbourg tomorrow for the BOM this weekend.
And will be playing this:

MAIN
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Emperion
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Trinisphere
2 Warping Wail
1 Staff of Domination
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Vesuva

Sideboard is still up in the air. I have 22 cards for the 15 slots and it keeps changing between tournaments. It's ridiculous, especially because they're mostly one-ofs.
I've added the 3 TKS to help with some match-ups as well as removing 2 Trinisphere, they got stuck in my hand too often and the decks where they're great against a CotV (mostly) does the same and I don't need a Grim Monolith to get it out T1. They did move to the sideboard though.
Also removed the BsC and greaves. Mulling and having a BsC in your 6 is the worst and happened a little bit too much.
If I manage to take some notes I'll write a little report.

Thanks for all the insight in the deck!

//EDIT// I ran 7 metalworkers...

[Secretly.A.Bee]

You have 7x Metalworkers in that list.

[skipjack]

@KokorHekkus: Your list contains 7 Metalworkers; I assume three of them are meant to be Wurmcoil Engines. Also, you don't seem to have the greatest selection of Kuldotha Forgemaster targets. I recommend throwing a Steel Hellkite in the maindeck at the very least. As for your sideboard, my personal approach to one-ofs is to first make a list of all the expected bad matchups, then identify which matchups from the list each one-of is effective against, and then try to find the combination of one-ofs which will fill the available sideboard spots while providing the widest, densest matchup coverage possible. I wish you the best of luck in the tournament this weekend!

[KokorHekkus]

Yup, should be Wurmcoil! Thanks for pointing that out.

@skipjack I never run into problems with forgemaster. Depending on the boardstate a Wurmcoil, Titan or Staff is enough. Used to run a Blightsteel Colossus but it was never really necessary. I have the hellkite in the board though, but I'll consider playing it main. And that's exactly how I treat my board that's also why it's always changing. I do like a lot of one-ofs, it gives a lot different options for fringe cases. And thanks for the advice!

[forestfold]

Yup, should be Wurmcoil! Thanks for pointing that out.

@skipjack I never run into problems with forgemaster. Depending on the boardstate a Wurmcoil, Titan or Staff is enough. Used to run a Blightsteel Colossus but it was never really necessary. I have the hellkite in the board though, but I'll consider playing it main. And that's exactly how I treat my board that's also why it's always changing. I do like a lot of one-ofs, it gives a lot different options for fringe cases. And thanks for the advice!

It does suck sometimes to have BSC stuck in your hand, but for me there are just so many reasons to have a "win button" in my deck I could never cut it. It has won me too many games in a single turn when other answers would take a few turns, and that is a huge difference vs. a lot of decks IMO. Especially because there is a tendency to tap out with creatures in legacy. Steel Hellkite is also great for answering all sorts of awkward permanents. Unless you have a very greedy meta I would definitely consider it over the second Sundering Titan.

[Rikter]

Played MUD in the SCG Classic in Dallas this weekend. Went 5-3, which I was fairly happy with. I've got a report up (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30802-Dallas-of-the-Void-a-Classic-SCG-Weekend), if you're interested.

Some takeaways:
- Trinisphere was probably the MVP. My matches against ANT, Omni, and UR Delver were cake-walks thanks to the card. On the flip side, though, I lost a game to RUG off my own Trinisphere.
- Metalworker was the runner up for MVP, though! This felt really good, because lately I've been lukewarm on Metalworker (what with all the Abrupt Decays, etc around). It won me my matches against Lands and Aggro Loam: despite them running the P Fire engine and Abrupt Decay, my Metalworkers survived and let me keep playing through all the Wastelands and Tabernacles.
- I lost to DnT round 2. I wasn't too bummed about that, as I consider it a rough matchup. However, my DnT opponent felt otherwise: in his experience, MUD is a scary opponent, as an unanswered Metalworker lets us go nuts. That got me thinking: maybe I've been approaching my DnT matches wrong. I've been in the habit of boarding in cards for grindy games (Crucible, Coercive Portal, Karn, etc), but maybe instead I should just be mulling into combo hands and trying to kill them ASAP with a Metalworker or Forgemaster. I think I've avoided that in the past for fear of StP, but they only have 4 . . .
- There was a LOT of DnT and Lands in the room.
- I didn't play any Miracles! And I didn't play any Miracles in the last big event (a 7-round 1K) I played MUD in :mad:

Depending on your configuration, DnT can be a little rough. My SB has been configured to battle the wider creature decks though, so post board I have ratchet bomb, revoker, dismember, contagion engine and Tsabo's web for DnT, plus 2x Wail in the main. Having a lot of answers for their problem cards that can be cast off 2 mana is very important, as far as I am concerned, because you may only have a single land drop.

With my SB, I actually do the opposite as you, I cut some Metalworkers and Forgemasters (more MW than forgemaster bc Forgemaster blocks well) post board, along with combo pieces, replacing it with removal. They lack the card drawing and filtering of blue decks, and our stuff is typically stronger in a top deck situation. I would not recommend aggressively mulling to combo hands against DnT, they play enough stuff to interfere with it that its really dangerous to give up too many cards.

After looking at the report, your SB won't let you make the kind of changes I make post board, where my curve gets really low. I bring in 10 cards that can answer their threats and disruption that can be cast off of a single sol land, and back way off of combo, morphing into an artifact value deck.

Bummer about not facing any miracles, that happened to me at Eternal Extravaganza a few weeks ago. Ran into a ton of Lands instead, which I don't think is a particularly fantastic matchup.

[Stuart]

Cheers Rikter! The idea of running lower to the ground and being able to sideboard into value is intriguing. I'm considering switching 2 Coercive Portal for 2 TSK for similar reasons. Would you mind either posting or messaging me your deck configuration, and how exactly you're boarding in/out against DnT? With the combination of good reprints (Karakas), lack of RL cards, and new cards (Thalia 2.0) DnT is only going to get more popular. We need to prepare for it.

Now, on the flip side, it's important not to dilute MUD's traditional identity and strength as a hybrid combo deck. If we go too midrangey/value-oriented, there isn't much reason to not just play Eldrazi. Likewise, a lot of my wins last weekend came off of our crazy-high power level via Trinisphere, Metalworker, Forgemaster, and the ability to drop bombs like Sundering Titan.

Re. Lands: obviously any deck that can establish a Waste lock is bad for us, and Punishing Fire/Abrupt Decay makes it even worse. I've found that Forgemaster is our best weapon against them, as it gives us both potential for quick wins and flexibility for the late game.

[Rikter]

Against DnT:
-2 Trinisphere
-1 Blightsteel
-1 Sundering Titan
-1 Staff of Domination
-3 metalworker
-1 forgemaster
-1 Grim Monolith
-1 Flex (could be a few different things depending on play draw/configuration)

+3 Revoker
+2 Ratchet Bomb
+1 Contagion Engine
+3 Dismember
+2 Tsabos Web

[Stuart]

Went a disappointing 3-3 at a local 1K this weekend. Part of that included my first-ever loss to Miracles (on MUD, that is. I've definitely gotten Countertopped and Jaced to death on my other decks :laugh:). Game 1 I mulled to 4 and never really got to play anything, and game 3 I got completely blown out by Back To Basics.

As long as Eldrazi is a Tier 1 deck, I'm assuming we're only going to see more Miracles players on Back To Basics. Does anyone have tips for beating this card?

[Rikter]

Went a disappointing 3-3 at a local 1K this weekend. Part of that included my first-ever loss to Miracles (on MUD, that is. I've definitely gotten Countertopped and Jaced to death on my other decks :laugh:). Game 1 I mulled to 4 and never really got to play anything, and game 3 I got completely blown out by Back To Basics.

As long as Eldrazi is a Tier 1 deck, I'm assuming we're only going to see more Miracles players on Back To Basics. Does anyone have tips for beating this card?

Sands of Time

[Mr Miagi]

Candelabra of tawnos :)

[Stuart]

Sands of Time

I really like this idea, at least as something fun and spicy. Having never played with the card, so you think it has uses and applications outside of B2B, or would it just be a cute way to piss off Miracles players?

I'm wondering if a few Thran Dynamos wouldn't ultimately be a better use of space . . .


Candelabra of tawnos :)

I'm less likely to try this given the price tag (and if I owned them, I'd probably just build 12-Post :laugh:). Still, I like your thinking!

[Rikter]

I really like this idea, at least as something fun and spicy. Having never played with the card, so you think it has uses and applications outside of B2B, or would it just be a cute way to piss off Miracles players?

I'm wondering if a few Thran Dynamos wouldn't ultimately be a better use of space . . .



I'm less likely to try this given the price tag (and if I owned them, I'd probably just build 12-Post :laugh:). Still, I like your thinking!


I was just joking around, I don't think it would be a good add, though it does solve this particular problem 100%.

I would plan on seeing bloodmoon more than back to basics, I think B2B is just a budget option. Bloodmoon wrecks eldrazi harder because you take away their ability to get even a single activation for extra mana, and it cuts them off of casting many of their actual threats. Bloodmoon is also better against lands for similar reasons. The only deck I see reliably playing B2B is merfolk, and they just don't have another option anyways. Ultimately, I wouldn't worry about it.

If I were up against Miracles and they resolve B2B, I would just do my best to wait for a cavern and try to stick a fast threat. It would be a bad spot, because depending on the board they could just swords or terminus your threat, but all you can really do is sculpt and build your mana and prioritize spending mana on things like metalworker first, then hope to ride out a single threat or something. If you knew it was in the deck, then you know it takes 3 turns to cast, so I would do all I could to get something fast. B2B is a lot more offensive when Merfolk are playing it just because they are providing a LOT more pressure than Miracles, so taking time to build up probably isn't a thing youre gonna be able to do.

[Stuart]

If I were up against Miracles and they resolve B2B, I would just do my best to wait for a cavern and try to stick a fast threat. It would be a bad spot, because depending on the board they could just swords or terminus your threat, but all you can really do is sculpt and build your mana and prioritize spending mana on things like metalworker first, then hope to ride out a single threat or something. If you knew it was in the deck, then you know it takes 3 turns to cast, so I would do all I could to get something fast. B2B is a lot more offensive when Merfolk are playing it just because they are providing a LOT more pressure than Miracles, so taking time to build up probably isn't a thing youre gonna be able to do.

Agreed. In a large percentage of our matches, including Miracles, the strongest line you can hope for is Turn 1 Chalice, Turn 2 Lodestone. If we can ride something like that for a while (especially while getting a Metalworker down for good measure), we should be in good shape. I think I just got tilted by the B2B, as it's not something that had happened to me before and, as I said, it was my first ever loss to Miracles.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Just fyi, lossett plays 2x B2B and 2x Moat in his board. I have to say that doesn't seem like budget material, and it seems both are highly relevant to this particular matchup imo.

[Claymore]

I know it was tongue in cheek, but I don't believe Sands of Time would work well outside of directly countering B2B. I think Miracles would just tap all of their lands in response to the trigger to untap everything. It would impair fetchlands for sure.

Regardless, Miracles still needs access to their fetchlands, so I'd expect more B2B to find their way into decklists. Blood Moon counters fetchlands and can severely color lock a Miracles player - happened during the SCG open where a Miracles player lost to BHoogland with two Islands and a hand full of white cards.

[MGB]

Legend MUD has less of a problem with B2B because it depends less on the lands for its mana than it does on its mana rocks + voltaic key.

[Rikter]

Just fyi, lossett plays 2x B2B and 2x Moat in his board. I have to say that doesn't seem like budget material, and it seems both are highly relevant to this particular matchup imo.

After reading one of the other posts above, I would guess that joe just wants to keep access to his fetches. I would rather have the moon myself. Budget isnt a pejorative! I use it to imply that a tradeoff in efficacy is being made, generally because of $$ and/or card availability.

@claymore I saw some off hoogland v lossett in worcestire. Pretty interesting deck from Hoogland. When Miracles plays the bloodmoon on their own terms its a lot better. Miracles can play back to basics more reliably and it pitches to force at least.

Ive generally seen bloodmoon to be the card out of the board from Miracles though

[Rikter]

SCG Worcestire Tournament Report

I recently played in the 20k at Wocestire, figured I would do a write up. I registered the following 75:

4x Metalworker
4x Lodestone
4x Forgemaster
3x Wurmcoil
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Platinum Angel
1x Sundering Titan
1x BSC

4x Chalice
4x Grim Monolith
2x Trinisphere
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Spine
1x Staff of Domination

2x Warping Wail
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4x Tomb
4x City
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmer Post
3x Cavern of Souls
3x Wasteland
2x Vesuva

SB
3x Faerie Macabre
3x Dismember
3x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Tsabo's Web
1x Karn Liberated
1x Contagion Engine


Round 1 (Dredge, 0-0)

I win the roll and open on chalice at 1, with my opponent responding LED city of brass. I race out a Forgemaster off of Monolith, while his dredge isn't fantastic. I get hit with an Ichorid, and he makes 2 zombies. My Forgemaster comes online and I pass back. He recurs a second Ichorid and swings with 2 Ichorids and 2 Zombies; OP is hellbent. I respond to the attack by activating Forgemaster, exiling his bridges, and fetching up BSC. I block a zombie for haha's and kill him on the crackback.

SB:

-1 Staff, -1 Spine, -1 MW, -2 Wurmcoil, -1 Greaves, -1 Sundering Titan, -1 Blightsteel
+3 Revoker, +3 Faerie macabre, +2 Ratchet Bomb
I board my GY Hate, some hate for his artifact mana, and a sweeper.

Game 2 my opponent mulls to 6, and I keep. He opens LED, LED, Cephalid Colosseum and cracks an LED, pitching Golgari Grave Troll and 2 Bridges. I pitch Faerie Macabre, taking his Troll and one Bridge. I land go, and he draws with no effects; I ratchet bomb for zero land a Trinisphere followed by a wasteland to lock him. Forgemaster and Hellkite quickly follow and the match is mine.

Round 2 (Dark Maverick, 1-0)

I win the roll and open with a Chalice on 1, my opponent land go's, and I follow with a Metalworker on Turn 2 off of Cavern (I believe his fetch was verdant). He follows with a turn 2 Thalia, so now I have a good idea as to what he is trying to do. My turn 3 sees Lodestone Golem and Steel Hellkite hit the board, and he scoops.

SB:
-2 Wails, -2 Trinisphere, -1 Spine, +3 Dismember, +2 Revoker

Game 2 my opponent land go's, and I open with another Chalice on 1. I am ready to go off with Lightning Greaves and a monolith next turn, but he lands a Thalia which keeps me off of them. The extra turns make a difference, as he quickly goes off with Knight of the Reliquary for Depths/Stage and thats all she wrote.

Game three sees yet another Chalice on 1 opener into wasteland into Lodestone Golem. He can't cast anything and dies to the Golem

Round 3 (Lands, 2-0)

I am on the draw and get combo'd out on like turn 3. It was a pretty uneventful game.

SB:
-2 Trinisphere, -2 Warping Wail, -2 Ugin, +3 Faerie, +2 Tsabo's Web +1 Karn. It's debatable taking out Wail, but I feel like the cards coming in are better, and I want the rest of my deck.

This time its my turn to combo and I get him on turn 3 with Staff and Metalworker. Such fun! Such interactivity!

Game 3 he has a much slower hand. I manage to stick a Forgemaster, on the turn he would go active I cast Steel Hellkite and he Grips FM in response. I go to swing with the Kite the following turn and that gets Gripped too. I had yet another threat, not Wurmcoil I know that, and that gets Gripped as well. After the triple Krosan Grip he is finally able to land a Maze for my dude. I eventually draw another threat and he finds another maze. In the end he is able to combo me out.

Round 4 (Reanimator, 2-1)

He mulls to 5 on the play and passes the turn. I open with Chalice on 1, he then draws and plays a Badlands. I follow with Lodestone Golem, which prompts a concession.

SB:
-1 Greaves, -2 Ugin, +3 Faerie Macabre. His one land was a Badlands and he kept a zero lander, Jund does not do stuff like this, I've only ever seen reanimator play like this.

I mull to 6 on the draw game 2 and he opens with 3x Lotus Petals into Entomb (Sire of Insanity) into Reanimate. I respond to reanimate by pitching Faerie Macabre and exiling Sire and Entomb. I slowly build up some artifacts, with a Forgemaster and Metalworker and he builds mana before he gets a Chancellor of the Annex in the yard (I don't remember if he used Thoughtseize or Hand size to discard) and casts exhume. He gets a Chancellor and I get a Faerie Macabre. I pass the turn with inactive Forgemaster, Metalworker and Faerie. He swings out on his turn, and on mine I crack back for 6 with some Faerie Macabre beats. I land a staff (no artifacts in hand) but my Locus lands allow me to just tap him down and kill him.

Round 5 (Miracles, 3-1)

I win the roll and open with Chalice on 1, OP plays fetch go. We alternate like this as I land a couple of Forgemasters. I begin to hit him with one of the Masters, and he plays Terminus. With Terminus on the stack I activate the Forgemaster (sacking 3 masters, ) for Sundering Titan. The Titan takes 3 lands on entering, and another 2 when the Terminus resolves. I follow with another threat and kill my opponent.

SB:
-2 Trinisphere, -3 Monolith, -1 Greaves, +3 Revoker, +2 Ratchet Bomb, +1 Karn. I take out monolith and greaves because Miracles isn't that fast and they have terminus anyways.

The first few turns are uneventful, just building mana for each of us (4 cloudposts for me). That all changes when on turn 5 I drop a Lodestone Golem off of Cavern and attempt a Chalice on 6, which gets Forced. I am able to Spine his only white source next turn, then follow with an uncounterable Sundering Titan to take the rest, and he concedes.

Round 6 (Miracles, 4-1)

I don't have the chalice opener, but I do have a quick Wurmcoil, which gets swords. We battle back and forth a bit, as he is able to deal with my threats, but eventually he is down to 1 card in hand and I stick Ugin. He has a few turns to attempt to deal with Ugin but can't. He scoops when I ultimate Ugin.

SB:
-2 Trinisphere, -3 Monolith, -1 Greaves, +3 Revoker, +2 Ratchet Bomb, +1 Karn. I like all these cards vs Miracles, Rev for Top/Jace, Ratchet Bomb is helpful vs entreat, mentor, oddball stuff, and Karn also deals with problem permanents.

Game 2 he is able to disrupt me early with Force and lands a fast mentor to finish the job.

Game 3 is grindy, and we go back and forth. He is able to wear tear my golem and swords my Forgemaster. I land a Ratchet Bomb, and start ticking it up, but stop at 2, for reasons I can't even begin to comprehend. He lands a Blood Moon, followed by a Mentor the following turn. My plan is to tick ratchet up to 3 on his end step, on main phase tap my tombs for red (I have been severely hurt by tombs), then crack ratchet bomb and free up my locus lands to get me enough mana to cast my wurmcoil. I only had 5 lands in play, so I was unable to cast under the moon. At this point landing Wurmcoil would be massive, as he is at 5 and I am at 8. What happened instead was he snapcastered wear tear in response to me adding the third counter, and the land I drew was frigging cloudpost so he was able to kill me when I just passed the turn back and did nothing.

It was catastrophically bad to not just run the damn ratchet up to 3, the Mentor was my biggest concern and this cost me the game.

Round 7 (Selesnya Loyal Retainers, 4-2)

I open on a chalice at 1 off City of Traitors, and he plays verdant pass. At this point I have to make a critical decision: the rest of my hand is Cavern, Metalworker, Lodestone Golem, Grim Monolith, X. I can do basically a few things here: Use the City to play Grim Monolith into Metalworker and pass, float city and play a land to play metalworker, or use the City to play Grim Monolith then play Cavern and tap monolith to run out Golem. I choose to go route 3. Unfortunately I draw no lands for the rest of the game except a wasteland, which I used to try and keep him down. He manages to hit every single land drop, stick a Qsali pridemage, and kill the golem with him at 1 life. See "no lands" above for all you need to know about why I could not get the last point in.

I went the golem route because I was less likely to get blown out by an abrupt decay and I was more likely to just keep him down. Because of city of traitors, it would have been a huge tempo hit if the MW got killed because it would have set me back so far in casting my expensive cards. It ended up not working out. It turned out that he was on selesyna, so no black. Knowing this its an easy metalworker because its so unlikely that they could kill it through chalice on 1, but oh well. He killed me with fauna shaman pitching Elesh Norn for Loyal Retainers. :really:

Game two my hand got undone by Thalia, I kept a hand that would have been explosive had it been netting mana with Monolith instead of being mana neutral. The tempo hit was just too much as he wound up hitting pridemage and it was just too much.

I didnt drop at this point, but I stopped taking notes since I was eliminated from contention (800 people, day 2 = 21 points or tied with 64th. 64th is going to be 7-2, maaaaybe 6-2-1 in a room that size)

NOTES:

Trinisphere is such a wretched card most of the time. I'm probably moving the damn things to the board and putting the ratchet bombs in instead. This deck doesn't need to be a prison. Against the fair decks (of which there are maaaaaany) if you can get to the mid and late game your card quality is so strong that you can ride that instead. Ratchet bomb is a much better topdeck against the majority of the field.

Staff is also on the list to come out. Its not that its bad, but I usually am not in a position to forgemaster for it, and I want to make the deck a little more linear. Steel Hellkite would replace it, the card is ridiculously strong, and 6 isn't too atrocious for us. Having one more Hellkite would ge great, since it can control the board so well.

[Stuart]

Trinisphere is such a wretched card most of the time. I'm probably moving the damn things to the board and putting the ratchet bombs in instead. This deck doesn't need to be a prison. Against the fair decks (of which there are maaaaaany) if you can get to the mid and late game your card quality is so strong that you can ride that instead. Ratchet bomb is a much better topdeck against the majority of the field.

Staff is also on the list to come out. Its not that its bad, but I usually am not in a position to forgemaster for it, and I want to make the deck a little more linear. Steel Hellkite would replace it, the card is ridiculously strong, and 6 isn't too atrocious for us. Having one more Hellkite would ge great, since it can control the board so well.

We all know the pain of topdecked Trinisphere, but I think part of your problem is that you're playing 2 of them. The card's at its strongest Turn 1, but with only 2 in your list, the chances of having it in your opening hand are slim. I guess playing either 3-4 or none is correct.

Cutting down your prison and combo potential in favor of a more linear strategy is appealing. However, I wonder: at what point is it smarter to just play Eldrazi? They've got a stronger manabase than us and a solid curve, so if you want linear aggro, they make a lot of sense. I wouldn't be the first to argue that one of MUD's biggest strengths is its ability to play insane prison, combo, and aggro; focusing on 1-2 of those might make the deck more consistent, but that comes at the expense of raw power.

Regardless, if you do develop a more streamlined MUD, keep us posted on how it plays for ya.

[Rikter]

We all know the pain of topdecked Trinisphere, but I think part of your problem is that you're playing 2 of them. The card's at its strongest Turn 1, but with only 2 in your list, the chances of having it in your opening hand are slim. I guess playing either 3-4 or none is correct.

Cutting down your prison and combo potential in favor of a more linear strategy is appealing. However, I wonder: at what point is it smarter to just play Eldrazi? They've got a stronger manabase than us and a solid curve, so if you want linear aggro, they make a lot of sense. I wouldn't be the first to argue that one of MUD's biggest strengths is its ability to play insane prison, combo, and aggro; focusing on 1-2 of those might make the deck more consistent, but that comes at the expense of raw power.

Regardless, if you do develop a more streamlined MUD, keep us posted on how it plays for ya.


I've thought a lot about MUD vs Eldrazi, ultimately I think the big difference is the fact that the MUD list plays more cards that can help you recover if you fall behind, such as Hellkite, Wurmcoil, Ugin, Angel/Emperion and it has the ability to have responsive toolbox elements. Even the Glimmerpost triggers we have can be incredibly helpful. It can also generate a lot of mana a lot faster, and its top end is much stronger. It's easier to play through some pieces of hate, like bloodmoon, moat, ensnaring bridge. Eldrazi is much more linear and focused, and the mana base is going to be more reliable early on, but MUD gets a stronger later game and the Eldrazi list also falls victim to some of the same issues as MUD, with City of Traitors and 3-4 copies of a Legendary land that can clutter up hands and make it difficult.

Another reason to stick with MUD in general is that we are going to see way more artifacts printed in the future, and not a whole lot of Eldrazi, so the deck should prove to be much more adaptable and get new toys more frequently. That said, I am picking up all the Eldrazi foils while they are cheap, but I think that properly configured MUD can still be a competitive choice with enough advantages that separate it from Eldrazi to make it worth choosing over it, even if I do wind up taking out a single staff and the two trinispheres.

I wouldn't say 3sphere is an automatic 3/4 or 0 card, if the meta were different I could see it making sense to keep in the two I have. But from what I see up here its almost always the first card out for ratchet bomb, and having it on the draw vs the play makes a huge difference. Ratchet takes away some of the coin flip variance, because it doesn't lose so much value on the draw.

[aluisiocsantos]

Hey guys, I've been meaning to come back to this archetype, and bought some cards to complete the deck, mostly Ugin, and the Platinum brothers.
What is the advantages of Platinum Angel vs Emperion and vice versa? Emperion seems more useful as a win con due to it's huge body.

[Rikter]

Hey guys, I've been meaning to come back to this archetype, and bought some cards to complete the deck, mostly Ugin, and the Platinum brothers.
What is the advantages of Platinum Angel vs Emperion and vice versa? Emperion seems more useful as a win con due to it's huge body.

Emperion is bigger but it doesn't help vs infect or other wincons that don't attack your life total (drawing from an empty library etc). It also makes it so you can't cast dismember or pay alternate costs involving life, or even gain life off of your locus triggers.

I used to run Emperion Main and Angel board and swap them out when I was playing infect or bringing in dismember, but it felt like I was just wasting a slot. I bring in dismember enough that I just decided if I could only play one then I wanted that one to be the angel. Angel also comes down a bit faster as well.

If you don't run anything with alt. casting costs, like dismember, I would base the decision on which to run by metagame. If you are facing down more burn than infect, you probably want the Emperion because he is harder to kill.

[Stuart]

Hey guys, I've been meaning to come back to this archetype, and bought some cards to complete the deck, mostly Ugin, and the Platinum brothers.
What is the advantages of Platinum Angel vs Emperion and vice versa? Emperion seems more useful as a win con due to it's huge body.

Welcome (back) to MUD!

I think Emperion is the better maindeck choice. The vast majority of Legacy decks win by reducing your life total to 0, so he works just as well as Angel in that regards. Consider: if you have an Angel out, your opponent can just beat you down to 0, then kill the Angel. With the Emperion, they have to do the opposite. In other words, it forces them to have an answer immediately.

Offensively-speaking, I've found the 2 to be about even. Yes, Emperion is a 2-3 turn clock, but he's very easily chump-blocked, while Angel flies. However, you need to play very conservatively with both. If you attack or block, you have to be positive your opponent won't have combat tricks, burn, etc to kill them.

Given that, Emperion's toughness is its other big advantage over the Angel. Angel dies to 2 Bolts, 1 Fireblast, 2 Punishing Fires, etc. Emperion doesn't really die to direct damage, unless it's Fireblast + Firecraft (which Burn players will feel bad not aiming at your head). Its only real weakness is direct destruction, like STP or Krosan Grip.

The only downside of Emperion is that he's a nonbo with Wurmcoil and Glimmerpost. Just make sure you sequence your plays correctly: if you have a Wurmcoil out, attack before playing the Emperion :smile:.

All that said, I would definitely keep an Angel in the board. It's obviously very useful against Infect, and worth bringing in against decks like Storm, Burn, etc. Having 2 Platinum creatures can present a real speedbump for some decks.

[aluisiocsantos]

Cool, thanks a bunch for both write ups, Rikter and Stuart!
Maybe I'll try keeping them both, possibly the Angel on sideboard I guess then since Infect is more occasional, rather than mostly every other deck then. Also the occasional grindstone/helm deck.

My list right now is looking like this:
Creatures

1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Sundering Titan
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker

Planeswalkers

1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Karn Liberated

Artifacts

1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
1 Staff of Nin
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
4 Trinisphere

Lands

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Wasteland

Sideboard

1 Batterskull
1 Platinum Angel
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 All is Dust
1 Duplicant
1 Orbs of Warding
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Warping Wail
1 Crucible of the Worlds

It's loosely based on this list http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=20774&iddeck=158818 which I liked because I don't own Cavern of Souls, and these cards are seriously expensive right now!
I look forward to do some testing this weekend at a regular tourney here.

[aluisiocsantos]

I played a 4 round this weekend with the list in the previous post, and went 2-2, not too bad!
Matches were Eldrazi (0-2), 12 Post (2-0), Aggro Loam (1-2) and Team America (2-1).

Since I'm returning to play Magic I still hadn't battled an aggro Eldrazi yet, though I do have studied the deck in my time on these boards. It was very tough dealing with it, even post board (-Ugin -Staff of Nin -Staff of Dominance +Duplicant +Spine +Batterskull) I managed to hit Endbringer with my Duplicant, but I lost on a combat trick with his Jitte'd up TKS with a Dismember sigh.

Vs Aggro Loam I won the first match, but he was super consistent with comboing Dark Depths in both g2 and g3. In G3 I was acutally armed to fight the thread with Ugin and All is Dust in my hand, except in the last turn before me playing Ugin he played GSZ for Gaddock and locked me.

Still fun times! Did a complete lock shut down vs Team America, with full prison of Chalice for one, Trinisphere and Lodestone Golem.

[Stuart]

Nice job beating Team America! I've found BUG decks to be our worst matchups, so that's a good start.

I'm not as surprised about Aggroloam. Aggroloam and Lands aren't actually that bad of matchups, but a quick Marit Lage is hard for us to stop. I guess just try to leave up Wasteland when you can, and consider adding a few Pithing Needle to the board. Chalice isn't very useful vs Aggroloam, so you can more easily play Needle to shut off Stage.

The good cards in your sideboard for Eldrazi are Batterskull, Angel, Duplicant, Spine, Crucible, and Revoker. Rather than board out Ugin and the Staffs, I'd board out some number of Chalices and Trinispheres. Chalice has limited applications (putting it on 2 does some work, I guess) and Trinisphere's only good to slow down their ridiculous Eye of Ugin plays.

Generally, I think you're going to beat Eldrazi by either ramping or comboing out quickly. To that end, I would definitely leave your Staff of Domination in; it's relatively hard for them to stop your Metalworker/Staff combo (and besides, Staff is useful in the late-game). Likewise, I would consider going up to 3 Wurmcoils. It's pretty easy to ramp it out, and it destroys most creature-based decks. I've never been a big Hellkite fan, so maybe that could be replaced with a Wurmcoil. Alternatively, you could go down to 3 Forgemasters.

[aluisiocsantos]

Thanks! Yeah, I was able to get really ahead in the match once BUG let one of the lock pieces in.

As for Aggro Loam, yeah, I think I cut some of the chalices but not all, though I sort of regretted at the time because Aggro Loam is running 3 StP on sideboard now, which absolutely destroys that hard earned Wurmcoil.

As for Eldrazi thats some good advice, I hadn't thought about that angle, we can really aim for the combo in this matchup.

Also, I guess I'm getting a third wurmcoil soon :)

[owerbart]

I'm not an expert on MUD, but Eldrazi seems to be a very manageable matchup, specially if you are able to go wide. Wurmcoils are a beating against them, and even though it won't hit anything, a 7/10 Titan is nothing they have an easy time beating.

What do you guys think of Platinum Angel as MD? a friend of mine wants to start going to legacy and he really liked MUD, I have pretty much all the pieces, so when building it and playing some games, Platinum Angel MD seemed like lights out for tons of decks

[Fry]

I'm not an expert on MUD, but Eldrazi seems to be a very manageable matchup, specially if you are able to go wide. Wurmcoils are a beating against them, and even though it won't hit anything, a 7/10 Titan is nothing they have an easy time beating.

What do you guys think of Platinum Angel as MD? a friend of mine wants to start going to legacy and he really liked MUD, I have pretty much all the pieces, so when building it and playing some games, Platinum Angel MD seemed like lights out for tons of decks

I bounce around a little between my Emperion and my Angel being main, if you deal with a lot of alt win cons like Jace ultimate, or Infect, then I think Angel is better main, if you're afraid you'll be up against Eldrazi a lot, they often play Dismember, Angel is easily answered and Emperion can be huge there. Personally My Emperion is normally the one in the main deck.

[Rikter]

I'm not an expert on MUD, but Eldrazi seems to be a very manageable matchup, specially if you are able to go wide. Wurmcoils are a beating against them, and even though it won't hit anything, a 7/10 Titan is nothing they have an easy time beating.

What do you guys think of Platinum Angel as MD? a friend of mine wants to start going to legacy and he really liked MUD, I have pretty much all the pieces, so when building it and playing some games, Platinum Angel MD seemed like lights out for tons of decks

Fry has the right idea, the last consideration for me is sideboard. I play dismember in the board and I really like it there, as there are a few matchups where I go a lot lower and don't worry about the top end. Dismember is unplayable with emperion on the board. I used to play both in the 75 and main the emperion, but in the interest of space I decided to cut one, and because of Angels utility against infect and alternate wincons I just run the angel.

[Ganfar]

I'm not as surprised about Aggroloam. Aggroloam and Lands aren't actually that bad of matchups, but a quick Marit Lage is hard for us to stop. I guess just try to leave up Wasteland when you can, and consider adding a few Pithing Needle to the board. Chalice isn't very useful vs Aggroloam, so you can more easily play Needle to shut off Stage.

Lands is a bad match-up. If they have explore to wasteland, its gg for us. And they can be fast with 20/20.

Aggroloam is better. Grindy and usally don't have 20/20(I think)

[Stuart]

Lands is a bad match-up. If they have explore to wasteland, its gg for us. And they can be fast with 20/20.

Aggroloam is better. Grindy and usally don't have 20/20(I think)

I understand the theory of why Lands is bad for us, and I agree that a quick Marit Lage is really tough for us. However, we can play around their Wastelands; unless they have a Punishing Fire in hand, a single Metalworker can run away with the game. I've won a number of Lands games by running out a quick Greaves, then sitting on a Metalworker until I also have a Monolith and sol land that will let me cast, equip, and activate Metalworker. I'm not saying it's a favorable matchup, but if you play it smart and Lands doesn't have the nuts, it's not too bad.

[Stuart]

So I just lost to Miracles - the 2nd time in a row after having never lost that match. Quick recap:

- It was the Legends build. Game 1 I got Venser locked.
- Game 2 I got him down to 1 off a pair of quick Lodestones, but then got Terminus'd and Back to Basic'd. Almost lost, but managed to stick a Metalworker, activate it, make Ugin, and win. VERY narrow win.
- Game 3 I kept an opener of City, City, Cavern, Trinisphere, Karn, Staff of Domination, Metalworker. The Metalworker got Plowed, and then he dropped a Jace and Clique to lock me out of the game.

I was talking with a buddy afterwards, and he pointed out that none of the games I lost involved Turn 1 Chalice. While that's definitely a good takeaway, does anyone have tips* for beating Miracles? This match has always been a cakewalk for me, so it's frustrating that I'm now struggling against them.

(*I'm looking for tips other than playing Legends MUD. I'm interested in adjusting the normal MUD build and/or new tactics, not playing a different deck.)

[L10]

Hi Stuart, I think you may be going too hard on yourself. Of all the variants of Miracles, Legends Miracles has the best fighting chance against us simply because they have more interaction compared to Ponder Miracles. Mentor Miracles can be tough too because it changes the dynamic match-up, where they can play the beatdown forcing us to play the role of control.

From your recap:
1) This is exactly how Legend Miracles can devastate our board. Clique is bad too because it messes up our hand. Can't really do anything about this unless you want to play narrow cards like Torpot Orb. However, after CN2, I think Torpor Orb will gain significant more value because it would shut down some of DnT's key card (Recruiter, Flickerwisp, SFM). Ideally, you can Wasteland the Karakas and go under them before they take control.
2) Shows how vulnerable our mana base is.
3) Getting Metalworker plow'd is unfortunate, but if he didn't play plow, you may as well have stolen the game. You did the right thing by keeping, but sometimes, your opponent has the answer. I think this is why I value Lightning Greaves so much, because passing a turn with Metalworker without protection is miserable.

Turn 1 Chalice is good, sure. But I have won many games without ever casting Chalice. It is a matter of if your opponent has any meaningful interaction. In all of the games above, they did. So you lost. That's how it is sometimes.

I have put down Metalworker for quite a while now since GP Seattle, only playing it like thrice this year with my Welder brew, but I have been itching to play Turbo MUD lately. I am planning to try something like this:

//Lands (21)
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Crystal Vein

//Rocks (11)
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
3 Mind Stone

//Panzer (16)
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite

//Resistors (6)
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere

//Utility (5)
3 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Nin
1 Phyrexian Metamorph

//Blightsteel Colossus (1)
1 Blightsteel Colossus

//Sideboard
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Sundering Titan
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Razormane Masticore
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thorn of Amethyst

[Stuart]

Cheers L10. I think I just tilted harder than I normally do. Those two losses contradicted one of my fundamental assumptions about MUD, which is that we roll over the two (arguably) best decks: ANT and Miracles. If you remove Miracles from that, the deck becomes somewhat less appealing. That said, you're probably right that I'm being too hard on myself.

The smart thing would be to ask that Miracles player to drill some games with me, and to adjust my board a bit. Torpor Orb is an interesting thought; shutting off Venser, Clique, the new Conspiracy creatures, etc seems solid. I'll try to find room for it in the board; I've been lukewarm on Ratchet Bomb for a while, so maybe it can go there.

I agree on Greaves. I've been playing 2 for a while now and loving it. I steal a lot of wins off of hasty Metalworkers and Forgemasters, and the shroud is super relevant.

Your list looks cool. I'm very partial to Cloudpost, but considering that I was just whining about Back to Basics, something like yours might run better.

[Rikter]

Cheers L10. I think I just tilted harder than I normally do. Those two losses contradicted one of my fundamental assumptions about MUD, which is that we roll over the two (arguably) best decks: ANT and Miracles. If you remove Miracles from that, the deck becomes somewhat less appealing. That said, you're probably right that I'm being too hard on myself.

The smart thing would be to ask that Miracles player to drill some games with me, and to adjust my board a bit. Torpor Orb is an interesting thought; shutting off Venser, Clique, the new Conspiracy creatures, etc seems solid. I'll try to find room for it in the board; I've been lukewarm on Ratchet Bomb for a while, so maybe it can go there.

I agree on Greaves. I've been playing 2 for a while now and loving it. I steal a lot of wins off of hasty Metalworkers and Forgemasters, and the shroud is super relevant.

Your list looks cool. I'm very partial to Cloudpost, but considering that I was just whining about Back to Basics, something like yours might run better.

I wouldn't worry at all about the losses. A really strong MU would be like 60-40 in our favor, even if you thought it was 80-20 good (I don't believe it is) you're still gonna lose 1 in 5, and it's not unreasonable to have streaks. They have enough good lines to win games off of us, they just can't do it nearly as easily as they can vs. other decks.

Personally I think the legends miracles list is suboptimal, and not a big player, at least in the northeast US. I wouldn't waste time or board slots trying to come up with special tech for it unless you were sure you were going to see it frequently. I have torpor orbs, but I haven't actually used them in the board yet at an event. It's fairly good against elves and eldrazi, but not nearly as versatile as ratchet bomb so it stays on the sidelines for now.

What was your sideboard plan for miracles? I generally take out Trinisphere and monolith and put in 3x Revoker, 2x Ratchet Bomb, 1x Karn Liberated, basically just ways to keep them off of Jace, random hate, and anti-token cards.

[chaosjace]

New to this deck, I play a variety of other legacy decks but ramp has always brought me joy in my magic career. ( I know this is more than that)

I threw together a list with 12 posts to start but after many goldfishing I don't like vesuva, and I like cavern of souls much better. I was also using 4 thorn of amethyst but see that it taxes everything else we want too much. I feel like one lightning greaves might be enough, opening with one or more sucks, and doesn't seem to help much. I noticed some older lists running platinum angel, is that viable at all? I know worst case scenario it dies to dismember, but I don't see that too much.

[Stuart]

I wouldn't worry at all about the losses. A really strong MU would be like 60-40 in our favor, even if you thought it was 80-20 good (I don't believe it is) you're still gonna lose 1 in 5, and it's not unreasonable to have streaks. They have enough good lines to win games off of us, they just can't do it nearly as easily as they can vs. other decks.

Personally I think the legends miracles list is suboptimal, and not a big player, at least in the northeast US. I wouldn't waste time or board slots trying to come up with special tech for it unless you were sure you were going to see it frequently. I have torpor orbs, but I haven't actually used them in the board yet at an event. It's fairly good against elves and eldrazi, but not nearly as versatile as ratchet bomb so it stays on the sidelines for now.

What was your sideboard plan for miracles? I generally take out Trinisphere and monolith and put in 3x Revoker, 2x Ratchet Bomb, 1x Karn Liberated, basically just ways to keep them off of Jace, random hate, and anti-token cards.

Cheers Rikter. You're probably right that I shouldn't otherthink those losses. I might still dick around with Torpor Orb in the board, though; that Legends player will be around my local meta, and Orb also helps with some unpleasant matchups like DnT.

I don't remember how I boarded in that match, but I would agree with you that Trinisphere isn't great. I usually swap them for 2 Coercive Portal and 1 Karn.


New to this deck, I play a variety of other legacy decks but ramp has always brought me joy in my magic career. ( I know this is more than that)

I threw together a list with 12 posts to start but after many goldfishing I don't like vesuva, and I like cavern of souls much better. I was also using 4 thorn of amethyst but see that it taxes everything else we want too much. I feel like one lightning greaves might be enough, opening with one or more sucks, and doesn't seem to help much. I noticed some older lists running platinum angel, is that viable at all? I know worst case scenario it dies to dismember, but I don't see that too much.

Welcome to the deck! It's a lot of fun.

Yep, Vesuva is a pretty gross land sometimes. I'd definitely go for a 2/2 split of Vesuva and Cavern.

I wouldn't recommend Thorn. 4 Lodestone, 4 Chalice, 3 Trinisphere is usually a pretty good lock suite.

The MUD community has mixed feelings on Greaves. I really appreciate it. It enables a lot of our busted wins, and can also bail you out of sticky situations (for instance, if you're locked out by something like B2B or Loam, if you've got a Greaves on the board you can wait until you draw a Sol Land, Monolith, and Metalworker, then go off and break the lock). I've been happy running 2, but 1 is also fine. Thousand-Year Elixir is another interesting card to think about, though I haven't personally played it.

I prefer Platinum Angel in the board, and Platinum Emperion in the main. As you said, it struggles with Dismember. The flying can be super relevant, though it can also just die to an Entreat token, Delver + Bolt, etc. As you generally want to be very conservative with your Platinum creatures, I'd consider opting for the one with the bigger butt. However, if you have a lot of Infect in your meta, you might want to mainboard it.

[10leej]

So I'm looking to buy back into MUD just got a couple questions.
1. Is 4 trinisphere 4 chalice still the way to go?
2. Staff of Domination still a worthwhile card?
3. Hows the Eldrazi matchup, apparently it'l a small majority of my local meta?

This was my old list I ran a year or so ago, it was fun but I sold out of legacy due to financial issues at the time.
Lands (24)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
4x City of Traitors
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
2x Vesuva
2x Wasteland

Artifacts (17)
4x Grim Monolith
4x Chalice of the Void
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Staff of Domination
1x Staff of Nin
4x Trinisphere
1x Voltaic Key

Creatures (17)
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
1x Blightsteel Colossus
4x Metalworker
1x Myr Battlesphere
1x Platinum Angel
1x Sundering Titan
1x Wurmcoil Engine

Planeswalker (2)
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Sideboard
1x All Is Dust
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Duplicant
1x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Platinum Emperion
1x Ratchet Bomb
2x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Tsabo's Web
1x Witchbane Orb
1x Wurmcoil Engine

[bruizar]

Start buying your foils. Metalworker just got a new toy

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/126/902/636087753207748373.png

[Stuart]

So I'm looking to buy back into MUD just got a couple questions.
1. Is 4 trinisphere 4 chalice still the way to go?
2. Staff of Domination still a worthwhile card?
3. Hows the Eldrazi matchup, apparently it'l a small majority of my local meta?


- 1) 4 Chalice and 3 Trinisphere is pretty standard. I'd put the 4th Trinisphere in the board.
- 2) Staff is great and still played. It snags you free wins off Metalworker, and its draw, tap, and untap functions are all useful even when not comboing off. I'd just play 1, though.
- 3) I've only played it a few times, but it's pretty even. They have a better manabase than us and curve out a little better, but some of our bigger dudes like Wurmcoil are incredibly hard for them to beat. I think it gets better post-board, as you can cut the dead weight like Chalice.

Your list looks good to me! I'd consider dropping the Voltaic Key and Battlesphere for 2 more Wurmcoil. I've been on 3 for a while and am very happy with them. You could try out Thought-Knot Seer, too, though you have to be careful about how many non-artifacts you run.

I personally prefer Coercive Portal > Staff of Nin and Platinum Emperion > Angel, but YMMV.


Start buying your foils. Metalworker just got a new toy

Yep, card looks fun. I'm only planning to run it as a singleton, though, as it doesn't fix any of the inherent issues with our mana base.

[Gheizen64]

The orrery seems more relevant for the deck than the land, especially for post manabases.

[bruizar]

The orrery seems more relevant for the deck than the land, especially for post manabases.

Well, tap metalworker, tutor staff GG is good in my book

[_Prophet_]

Welder MUD might have a reasonable resurgence with the presence of the new red Gearhulk... I believe that card along with the Orrey and Inventor's Fair require reasonable testing!

[BlackHawkX9]

So, I keep seeing reference to "legend MUD". What is the difference between post MUD, and legend MUD?

[_Prophet_]

So, I keep seeing reference to "legend MUD". What is the difference between post MUD, and legend MUD?

The major differences on the short and narrow is that Legend MUD goes straight for ramp artifacts into Legendary permanents such as Ulamog, Infinite Hunger, Ugin, Karn etc. Post MUD is a bit more focused on a prison and attrition game that allows for a combo with Blightsteel more often than not... At least that's how many matches go for myself

[Silverflame]

No love for this little guy?

http://mythicspoiler.com/kld/cards/metalworkcolossus.jpg

it seens easily castable when you stack trinis+monoliths. Of course it works best for the aggro plan, maybe with batterskull and tangle wire.

[ZEROorDIE]

unfortunately it doesn't really offer anything.

paying 5 mana for a 10/10 sounds good, until it eats a StP before you even get to swing with it

[L10]

The fact that Colossus has no utility seems bad unless we can make use of him as a sacrifice outlet.

http://mythicspoiler.com/kld/cards/foundryinspector.jpg

Looking forward to try this. One mana per artifact may seem trivial, but I am willing to give it a shot. There has definitely been times I have been a mana short to cast my spells, given the prevalence of Wasteland. This also gives us an early threat.

http://mythicspoiler.com/kld/cards/inventorsfair.jpg

Seems like a good 1-of or 2-of. It is always good to have a tutor and the life gain comes in handy. Goes well with Crucible of Worlds.

[chaosjace]

I have done some light testing while putting this deck together, I stuck an Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre in and can easily cast him most of the time while typically being 1 mana short of casting Blightsteel.

[BlackHawkX9]

So, I'm preparing for the legacy championships in Columbus next month, and I'm trying to figure out my sideboard. Does anyone have and consistent winning strategy against eldrazi aggro? My current plan is stick an ensnaring bridge, and needle/revoker ratchet bomb. Any other suggestions?

[Stuart]

So, I'm preparing for the legacy championships in Columbus next month, and I'm trying to figure out my sideboard. Does anyone have and consistent winning strategy against eldrazi aggro? My current plan is stick an ensnaring bridge, and needle/revoker ratchet bomb. Any other suggestions?

I've only played the matchup once or twice, so I dunno if I have a "winning" sideboard strategy. However, my plan would be:
- 4 Chalice, -3 Trinisphere, -2 Ugin
+ 1 Platinum Angel, +1 Karn, +1 Spine or Contagion Engine, +2 Crucible, +2 Coercive Portal, +2 Pithing Needle

I guess the Bridge plan is fine, though that doesn't leave you many win cons. I'd personally prefer to just Needle their Equipment and make big plays. Our fatties are bigger than theirs, and they're gonna have a hard time dealing with Platinum effects. Add in some Portals and Crucibles for extra grind advantage, and you should be in decent shape.

[BlackHawkX9]

I've only played the matchup once or twice, so I dunno if I have a "winning" sideboard strategy. However, my plan would be:
- 4 Chalice, -3 Trinisphere, -2 Ugin
+ 1 Platinum Angel, +1 Karn, +1 Spine or Contagion Engine, +2 Crucible, +2 Coercive Portal, +2 Pithing Needle

I guess the Bridge plan is fine, though that doesn't leave you many win cons. I'd personally prefer to just Needle their Equipment and make big plays. Our fatties are bigger than theirs, and they're gonna have a hard time dealing with Platinum effects. Add in some Portals and Crucibles for extra grind advantage, and you should be in decent shape.

My thought process is that the only way eldrazi aggro can beat an ensnaring bridge is ratchet bomb, and slow ping to death by end bringer. But if you lock them out with bridge, you can set up an insane alpha strike and sack your bridges to forgemaster. Or setup staff combo. Or kill with staff of nin, or ugin, or karn. You can easily win around bridge, if you plan for it. And angel is way too easily killed by them, with dismembers.

[Stuart]

My thought process is that the only way eldrazi aggro can beat an ensnaring bridge is ratchet bomb, and slow ping to death by end bringer. But if you lock them out with bridge, you can set up an insane alpha strike and sack your bridges to forgemaster. Or setup staff combo. Or kill with staff of nin, or ugin, or karn. You can easily win around bridge, if you plan for it. And angel is way too easily killed by them, with dismembers.

That sounds like a valid plan, though you'll want to be careful about something like World Breaker catching you off guard. My plan vs Eldrazi is to just try to activate Metalworker and make big dudes like Wurmcoil and Sundering Titan, but I can't guarantee that's any better or worse than your plan. Regardless, I suspect that matchup will be around 50:50, and will depend heavily on who's on the play and what type of opening hand they draw.

I personally play 1 Emperion main and 1 Angel in the board, and there's no way I wouldn't bring in the Angel vs Eldrazi. It's 1 extra permanent they have to kill, and they won't always be able to (because we have lots of must-answer cards like Metalworker, Lodestone, or Forgemaster that they might have used their removal on). You're right that you can't have Angel as your only plan against them, but it's still good.

Do you mind posting your list? That would probably make it easier for everyone :smile:.

[BlackHawkX9]

My current main board is this:
4x metalworker
4x kuldotha forgemaster
4x lodestone golem
3x wurmcoil engine
1x blightsteel colossus
1x platinum emperion
1x sundering titan

4x grim monolith
4x chalice of the void
3x trinisphere
2x lightning greaves
1x staff of domination
2x ugin, the spirit dragon
1x spine of ish sah
1x staff of nin

4x ancient tomb
4x cloudpost
4x glimmerpost
3x vesuva
3x wasteland
3x city of traitors
3x cavern of souls

Current sideboard:
3x phyrexian revoker
2x tormods crypt
1x crucible of worlds
2x ensnaring bridge
1x wurmcoil engine
1x batterskull
2x thorn of amethyst
3x warping wail

[Water_Wizard]

I just noticed this deck took 5th at SCG Indy: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=108137

What is the kill? Opponent scoop? Or attack with Metalwork or Spirit token from Gods' Eye?

[JackaBo]

That's not mud, that's stax. Even though he plays metalworker. Scoop would be the most common way of winning.


Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk

[GradStudent]

I just noticed this deck took 5th at SCG Indy: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=108137

What is the kill? Opponent scoop? Or attack with Metalwork or Spirit token from Gods' Eye?

one spirit at a time :P

[BlackHawkX9]

I just noticed this deck took 5th at SCG Indy: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=108137

What is the kill? Opponent scoop? Or attack with Metalwork or Spirit token from Gods' Eye?

A guy in our local group is friends with the guy who piloted this weird stax concoction. This is what he had to say about the list.
"He didn't draw at all lol when your opponent has 0 permanents in the field they tend to concede. As to his match ups I know he played infect, infect, miracles, rug delver, and maverick. Beat the rug player so bad be posted in a group that he had a rug delver list to sell after he lost to stax. He IDed the last two matches cause he was in. His quarter match was Omnitell"

[Zombie]

I just noticed this deck took 5th at SCG Indy: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=108137

What is the kill? Opponent scoop? Or attack with Metalwork or Spirit token from Gods' Eye?

Scoop or just keep feeding God's Eye to Smokestack. If you have an Orrery and a couple Crucibles, you can even Wasteland your own God's Eye to make tokens XD

[massd]

Hi all!

Been playing MUD for a while now (around 2 years), but left it aside when Eldrazi appears with the their ultra efficiente beaters and solid plan overall, but after Kaladesh I'm impressed with the toys MUD gained and will give it a try again, thanks to Inventor's Fair and Orrery.

I'm currently brewing a list (sharing similarities with the stax list that made top8 last week), but will revolve around Bottled Cloister + Ensnaring Bridge / Orrery combo, which is kind of easy to assembly for this deck. I'll try the deck in a coming GP side event this month, I expect to see delver, miracles, s&t, d&t and eldrazi mainly.

4x metalworker
4x grim monolith
4x chalice
4x trinisphere
4x ensnaring bridge
4x tangle wire
2x bottled cloister
2x ghirapur orrery
2x crucible of worlds
1x smokestack
1x staff of domination
2x ugin
1x karn
1x spine of ish sah

4x ancient tomb
4x city of traitors
4x wasteland
4x cloudpost
3x glimmerpost
3x inventor's fair
1x buried ruin
1x ghost quarter

For the sideboard, I think including:
2x spellskite
3x graffdigger's cage
4x lodestone golem
4x phyrexian revoker
2x surgical extraction

If you have any feedback is very welcomed. The deck attempts to slow the game with the typical lock pieces (chalice, trinisphere, tangle wire) until I can find a ensnaring bridge and estabilize from there. I can definetly see swapping the wires for the golems in the MD, but costing 4 mana is an issue.

Bottled cloister helps getting additional cards and also offers protection against discard, has great sinergy with bridge, and if you stack the ability with orrery you will get 4 new cards every turn, which is insane and should lock the game in a few turns.

The problem I find is that the deck can take several turns to win until you find a Karn, Ugin, or your opponents concede after establishing a soft-lock with the lone smokestack and other lock pieces (or recurring spine).

[Claymore]

That's being discussed here - http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25724-Primer-Deck-Stax/page11

[Stuart]

Played MUD to a 6-4 finish at Eternal Weekend. Report is here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31130-Eternl-Weeknd-27-rounds-of-Enchantress-Quinn-MUD-and-White-Trash), if anyone's interested. The deck played as well as could be expected. Losses were to Shardless, DnT, Sneak Show, and Belcher, none of which are stellar matchups.

Now that that's over, I'd like to try some MUD variants. 2 question for people on the Legends build:
- How's the DnT matchup? DnT's the biggest thorn in our side in the current meta, so I'm hoping one of the alternative builds is good against it.
- Has anyone tried Inventors' Fair in the deck? It seems strong when I've been goldfishing, but not sure how it is IRL.

[battousai555]

Legend MUD, at least in my experience, does quite well against D&T. With all of the mana rocks, they have trouble keeping us from getting to 7/8 mana (especially since I play 2 Voltaic Keys). I'm playing 3 Ugin, 3 Karn, 3 Ulamog, so trying to lock us up with Revokers and Prelates isn't easy. 3 Karakas also help a shit-ton against Thalias. Traditional MUD's weakness to D&T was one of the main reasons I made the switch.