[Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

[MGB]

Legend MUD, at least in my experience, does quite well against D&T. With all of the mana rocks, they have trouble keeping us from getting to 7/8 mana (especially since I play 2 Voltaic Keys). I'm playing 3 Ugin, 3 Karn, 3 Ulamog, so trying to lock us up with Revokers and Prelates isn't easy. 3 Karakas also help a shit-ton against Thalias. Traditional MUD's weakness to D&T was one of the main reasons I made the switch.

Unfortnately, in my testing, Legend MUD is still pretty weak to DnT.

The combination of Revokers (naming mana rocks), Ports, Wastelands, and Thalias do a number on the deck.

The upside to playing Legend MUD over other types of MUD, however, is an even better win percentage against the blue decks. You still lose more often than not to Lands and Death'n'Taxes, but you absolutely CRUSH the fair blue decks, and you CRUSH the combo decks. Whereas regular MUD does *well* against those decks, but can still lose to Terminus+StP, and Legend MUD just doesn't care about spot removal.

[massd]

Went to GP Santiago side event with a post MUD concoction, focused heavy on mana disruption more than anything, given that I expected lot of eldrazi. lands and blue decks, so I had some differences with most lists:

4 metalworker

4 grim monolith
4 chalice of the void
4 trinisphere
4 sphere of resistance
4 ensnaring bridge
2 crucible of worlds
2 mox diamond
1 staff of domination
1 bottled cloister
1 ghirapur's orrery
1 smokestack

2 ugin
1 karn pw

4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 wasteland
3 inventor's fair
1 ghost quarter
1 tabernacle
1 buried ruin

sb:
3 phyrexian revoker
3 lodestone golem
3 wurmcoil engine
3 faerie macabre
2 ratchet bomb
1 spine of ish sah

1st round: Colorless Eldrazi
G1: Lost the die roll. He mulled to 5, which made things easier, I had like turn 3 karn, turn 4 ugin and that's it.
G2: I SB in 3 revokers, 3 golems, 2 bombs and 3 wurmcoils, out 4 chalices, 4 trinispheres, 2 mox diamonds, 1 orrery
He died without permanents, without hand thanks to Karn + Smokestack

1-0 (2-0)

2nd round: Colorless Eldrazi
G1: Lost die roll again. I died to 2 endbringers pinging me to deatch after semi-estabilizing with a bridge and gaining some life with inventor's fair and staff.
G2: Same sb as previously, he missed several land drops, wurmcoil engine did the rest
G3: I wastelanded all their lands, and dropped tabernacle and he with 4 creatures in play, me with Karn, gg

2-0 (4-1)

3rd round: Dark Maverick
G1: Lost die roll 3rd time in a row. He mulled to 4, spheres saved the game as he couldn't find the 4th land.
G2: SB out 2 mox diamonds, 4 trinisphere, staff, orrery, cloister and smokestack, in the same beaters as before.
He quickly dispatched me with thalia 1.0 and pridemage. Nothing to do really.
G3: Very close match. He had 2 giant kotrs in play (6/6 or 7/7 dont remember), but bridge had me alive there. Couldn't find a wasteland to destroy his cradle, which actually won him the match, at the last critical turn, he found a Krosan Grip (I was like "people still play this card in 2016"), and died to KotRs.

2-1 (5-3)

4rd round: Elves
G1: Won the die roll finally. Chalice @ 1 + Tabernacle and going to G2.
G2: I started with chalice, 2 cloudpost, 1 glimmerpost, 2 bridges and trinisphere.
He mulled to 6. Went T1 thoughtseize (out trinisphere). T2 chalice meets abrupt decay. I dropped my hand by turn 3, ready to cast Ugin I just drew next turn to finish the game, he topdecked another thoughtseize (bye Ugin). Drew revoker naming symbiote, topdecked GSZ for reclamation sage, drew second revoker to stop him killing my board with symbiote combo, naturally drew a second sage!! And lost shortly after that after he casted a symbiote.
G3: I was still in shock after his consecutive amount of top decks last game. Kept a bad hand that could end in a Metalworker + Staff combo on T4, but decay and NO ended things quickly.

2-2 (6-5)

In general, as my other experimentations with MUD, when the deck goes fluent everything is perfect, but can be difficult to overcome an early disadvantage (Thalia 1.0, several abrupt decays + wastelands).

Some notes about deck choices:
- I hated Mox Diamonds, never drew them, never missed them.
- Metalworkers underperformed (everybody plays creature removal), Grim Monoliths overperformed as expected, as abrupt decays and stps were reserved to spheres, chalices and MWs.
- Ratchet bomb was my best SB card, by far.
- Bridges MD felt amazing, decks like eldrazi or some variants of Delver and Miracles doesn't have an answer on G1.
- Post manabase allows you to go big with sphere effects, during testing Golem + Sphere wins a lot of games.
- Never had Orrery + Cloister together, both felt clunky when I drew them separately, specially orrery.
- The single smokestack was nice, specially along with the post manabase (recurring glimmerpost gained 3-4 life a turn), which helped stabilizing when facing uncontested DRSs.
- Buried Ruin is too cute, will be cut in favour of 1-2 Vesuvas (taking out a city of traitors too).
- The post manabase allows you to spend your extra mana on Inventor's Fair.
- Will possibly move spheres to the SB, and include some number of Warping Wails to answer opposing DRSs and Thalias, which are my biggest concerns. Mox diamonds will be replaced by 1 Ugin or 1 Karn.
- Staff is also cute, but at least is a mana sink and has several uses.
- Really missed a tutor, but Kuldotha wasn't an option as I saw that all lock pieces were useful to stabilize the board on G1s (which I had a large win %).
- I'm not sure if playing 4 TKS + 4 Golems, or 4 Spheres + 4 Golems in SB games. At the time, I didn't have TKS so they weren't an option.
- Tabernacle wins games (a friend lent me one for the tournament), actually made me think I will have to buy one -.- It gave the deck another power level.
- What do you think in including 2-3 Smuggler's Copter and Revokers MD? Card seems really good in MUD Stompy variants, can fly over Moat, loots, easy to crew.

[Airwave]

Thanks for your report!

I have a question, only playing 1 Bottled Cloister could lead to an "opening" in Ensnaring Bridge for the opponent, didn't you face that problem during some matches? I'm asking because it happened to me quite often, being stuck with some big dudes in hand (after being hit by wasteland for instance)

[Stuart]

Cheers, Battousai and MGB. Interesting to hear the split perspectives. I goldfished the deck and felt like Revoker & co would demolish all its activated abilities, and that it wasn't much safer from Wasteland & Port. I might still try it out, but I'm more inclined to maybe just toss 1-2 Dynamos in regular MUD and see what happens.

@Massd: thanks for posting! It's cool to see people gravitating more stax-y builds lately. I wouldn't think that's the right deck for Smuggler's Copter, but I guess they'd make your Metalworkers more versatile in the lategame.

[massd]

@airwave
I didn't face that problem, but I was thinking about getting wasteland locked against loam decks during preparation (played a lot against a lands decks o a friend) and tried to had the lowest possible curve, so I could easily cast every card drawn. I didn't want to play additional copies of cloister, even if it is really good when no disrupted, because if I had a 5-6 card hand during midgame, it was highly possible that one of my very few win conditions was there (and I couldn't cast it before because of mana) and could be randomly destroyed by a rec.sage, pridemage or pulse.
I saw that one guy playing on the tournament playing a dedicated Stax deck suffering the situation you described when playing against a colorless eldrazi deck, and both players had crucible in play (the difference was made because the stax player had 3 revokers, 2 on mw and 1 on monolith). He ended with a useless bridge and like 6 cards in hand.

If going full PWs style (daretti, karn, ugin), would you recommend ramping with grim monolith + basalt monolith, or grim monolith + thran dynamo?? What would be the ideal number of voltaic keys to play?

[MGB]

Cheers, Battousai and MGB. Interesting to hear the split perspectives. I goldfished the deck and felt like Revoker & co would demolish all its activated abilities, and that it wasn't much safer from Wasteland & Port. I might still try it out, but I'm more inclined to maybe just toss 1-2 Dynamos in regular MUD and see what happens.

@Massd: thanks for posting! It's cool to see people gravitating more stax-y builds lately. I wouldn't think that's the right deck for Smuggler's Copter, but I guess they'd make your Metalworkers more versatile in the lategame.


I still think, however, that Legend MUD is still the best MUD variant you can play at this moment.

The fact that you crush blue decks better than any other MUD variant with Legend MUD is the selling point to me. Over the course of a long tournament, if you dodge Lands/DnT enough, that should be good enough to get you close to undefeated. Whereas with other MUDs, you have a higher chance of losing to favorable matchups like Miracles or Stoneblade.

[Airwave]

Hi everyone,

I played MUD today at a legacy tournament in Eindhoven (40 people).

This is the list I used:


4 Metalworker
1 Steel Hellkite

1 Karn Liberated
4 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Bottled Cloister
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Staff of Domination
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Ratchet Bomb

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere

3 Grim Monolith

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Wasteland
2 Vesuva
1 Mishra's Factory
2 Inventors' Fair


Quite controllish as you can see. I went 3-3, little disappointing, but hey that's how things go sometimes... :really:


Match 1 - Dredge
Played against Dredge, didn't expect this one so I was in bad shape, since I didn't bring any gravehate with me...

Game 1: Not entirely sure here but I think I played a Ratched Bomb and a Bottled Cloister before he overwhelmed me with creatures, as dredge does.

Game 2: I kept a mediocre hand and went okayish with Staff, Ratched Bomb and a Wasteland on my part I think. He took control of the game and was about to finish me when I topdecked an Ensnaring Bridge with other cards in hand left. He immediately scooped as he had no answer to it.

Game 3: I kept a hand with two wastelands. He starts with a turn 1 Cabal Therapy naming Grafdigger's Cage (which missed obviously :cool:). I wasted him twice hoping to lock him out of the game since there was still no dredge creature in the grave on turn 3 and he already had mulled to 6. But unfortunately he played yet another land followed by a breakthrough that filled the graveyard with many creatures, bridges, etc. I couldn't find an Ensnaring Bridge and lacked mana to activate Inventor's Fair and play the Bridge in time so that was it.

(1-2) -> 0-1

Match 2 - Merfolk

Game 1: I won the die roll, kept my 7 and then opened with Tomb, Monolith, Trinisphere. Quite nice. He read Trinisphere a few times and then decided to pass the turn two times after playing an Island. I played Metalworker turn 2 and then Ugin on turn 4 I think, that was game.

Game 2: Kept a hand with two Revokers, one of which shut down his turn 1 Vial (other one gets Forced). Turn later I played Trinisphere which meets another Force. After that I played Metalworker followed by a Steel Hellkite and since he was out of Forces this time it's gg.

(2-0) -> 1-1

Match 3 - NicFit

Game 1: I played against a good friend of me this round so we knew each other's decks quite well. I landed a Ugin on turn 3 after a Grim Monolith on turn 1 or 2, which sealed the game.

Game 2: This one didn't go so well after he hits me with Therapy and sacs Veteran Explorer to search for a nice land advantage. Creatures and Llliana (killing my workers and revokers) seal the deal.

Game 3: I kept my 7 and opened with Tomb, Chalice on 1. Feeling good about this since he has lots of one drops and now my hand should be save for Therapy at last. I draw two Ugin and get stuck at 7 mana, he then Vindicated my land, and killed all my board pieces one by one with two Abrupt Decay, another Vindicate that came back from the grave and a Krosan Grip. After all this destructive force he plays Gaddock Teeg to make matters even worse. I played two Bridges after that which could hold him off for some time, but when he keeps activating Deathrite Shaman for life loss, I'm dead a few turns later.

(1-2) -> 1-2

Match 4 - MoonBridge homebrew

Game 1: Lost the die roll and he starts with Vault of Whispers, Mox Opal and then Inquisition of Kozilek. I assumed he was on affinity and he would discard my Bridge but he chose Staff instead. I played cloudpost and passed, he played Great Furnace and passed, I played Glimmerpost and played Bridge. He then played a red/black budget dual and also played Bridge which amazes me of course :eek:
I played City of Traitors and Cloister, pass. He plays Blood Moon, woops, didn't see that one coming. The game goes on for quite some time, he put a Needle in play on Ugin (which he saw with Inquisition), puts two Magus of the Moon and two Blood Moons in play and two Hangarback Walkers that grew to 14 or something. Meanwhile I played a Trinisphere, two Chalices (1 and 2), two more Bridges and one more Cloister. I think I had 13 "mountains" in play by then as well. Quite the board! He then plays the new Daretti planeswalker and starts to hit my Artifacts one by one. After losing both Chalices, both Bridges and a Ratchet Bomb, I finally drew the only answer in my deck left (I think): Karn. Karn hits Needle which awakens Ugin that sweeps his board with -3. The only things left were one opal and the two Walkers. Since my mountains turn to cloudpost now I think I produced around 40 mana to go crazy with Staff and played Steel Hellkite. He has no answers next turn a my Steel Hellkite hits for around 35 damage....

Game 2: Quite exhausted I was after this match, he starts with Welder and next turn opal, Daretti which puts me in a bad spot. A few turns later (after him meddling with my artifacts due to Welder) I scooped since time was an issue after the first looong match.

Game 3: I started with Chalice on 1 and quickly had Metalworker Staff combo which goes infinite just before judges call time, he scoops.

(2-1) -> 2-2

Match 5 - Dredge

Game 1: I won the die roll and kept my 7, he mulled to 5, had quite a difficult decision here. I think my hand was Glimmerpost, Traitors, Vesuva, Grim, Trini, Staff, Ugin. When I kept my 7 my plan was to play Traitors immediately with Grim and Trini for a backbreaking start. Since he mulled to five I didn't want to take this risk a started with glimmerpost and passed. He starts with Lion's Eye Diamond (...) and (thank god) passed. I played Traitors and Trinisphere and passed. He grumbled and played a land I think. I played Grim and followed with Ugin a few turns later as he gets nowhere, game.

Game 2: Regretting very much my at-home gravehate I side in some Revokers and start again. He mulls to 5 again and has trouble finding the right cards I think. He starts with gemstone, faithless and put a dredger in. I start with Tomb, Chalice at 1, and a Chalice at 0. He dredges somethings a gets a Narcomoeba which he sacs to Therapy, I tap at Chalice and counter it. He gets two Zombies. I then got rid of the zombies with Ratched Bomb a few turns later, also killing my Chalices. I can't find anything after that and lose.

Game 3: I kept my 7 and started with chalice I think. He had mulled again and decides to play nothing and waits for discard. I played metalworker and next turn Steel Hellkite which destroys zombies over and over again. He hits some damage but it's too late, hellkite beats him to dead with metalworker pumping.

(2-1) -> 3-2

Match 6 - ShardlessBUG

Game 1: Final match, a very small chance on getting top 8, but top 16 gets paid as well, so at least I'm playing for something still :smile:
I lost the die roll and mull a one lander with 7 and 6 cards. On 5, I have zero land and on 4 as well, but since there's a Chalice in it I kept it hoping for a miracle lucky draw against Storm or something like that. He starts with fetch and Deathrite and passes, I draw a Cloudpost, play it and pass. He wasted my cloudpost and played another creatures and I scooped. Probably should have scooped before playing the post to keep him in the dark.
Game 2: I kept a mediocre hand with two land hoping for the best, His turn one is Wasteland that hits and after that he discards two cards and Abrupt Decays the only two plays I could make, so I'm dead meat.

(0-2) -> 3-3


I prepared mostly for Miracles, Show and Tell, Lands and Eldrazi but didn't get paired with them at all! :confused:

Not sure what I'll play next time, I still think this list has quite a good matchup against the top decks but didn't see it in action, maybe next time....

[benjiman13]

Someone can share a "stock" list of Legend MUD?

Wanna try a bit !

Thanks!

[KokorHekkus]

Hey Everyone,

I played in the same tournament as in Eindhoven as Airwave.
This is the list I played:

4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil engine
3 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Emperor
1 Steel Hellkite

4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere

2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Staff of Dominion
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Coercive Portal

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 City of Traitors
2 Vesuva
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Inventors’ Fair

I added the Inventors’ Fair to the deck that morning because I really wanted to try it out. I switched out a City, mostly because I have been wanting to cut back to 3 Cities for a while. There’s no worse feeling to draw 2 in your opener with no other land.

I went 4-2. Quite ok, but I know where I went wrong. So that’ll help for the next time.
Won from: burn, miracles, merfolk, affinity.
Lost to U/R both times, where the first one was a Thing in the Ice build that wrecked me with Thing both games. The second one was a more straightforward Delver list. I lost because of not thinking about Price of Progress and having taken too much damage from my Tomb (took at least 8 damage from my Tombs up by turn 3) so he could go “eot Smash to Smithereens followed up by a Price for the exact amount.

Biggest win was against Burn. Going Chalice on 1 followed up by TKS taking his Price was game. Game 2 was Trinisphere with him not drawing a 3rd land for 3 or 4 turns.

Best match was against miracles. Way too much fun and game 3 I had Coercive Portal and Trading Post in play. That’s when know you why people play blue decks, all that card draw is amazing.

[Airwave]

Hey Everyone,

I played in the same tournament as in Eindhoven as Airwave.
This is the list I played:

LIST

I added the Inventors’ Fair to the deck that morning because I really wanted to try it out. I switched out a City, mostly because I have been wanting to cut back to 3 Cities for a while. There’s no worse feeling to draw 2 in your opener with no other land.

I went 4-2. Quite ok, but I know where I went wrong. So that’ll help for the next time.
Won from: burn, miracles, merfolk, affinity.
Lost to U/R both times, where the first one was a Thing in the Ice build that wrecked me with Thing both games. The second one was a more straightforward Delver list. I lost because of not thinking about Price of Progress and having taken too much damage from my Tomb (took at least 8 damage from my Tombs up by turn 3) so he could go “eot Smash to Smithereens followed up by a Price for the exact amount.

Biggest win was against Burn. Going Chalice on 1 followed up by TKS taking his Price was game. Game 2 was Trinisphere with him not drawing a 3rd land for 3 or 4 turns.

Best match was against miracles. Way too much fun and game 3 I had Coercive Portal and Trading Post in play. That’s when know you why people play blue decks, all that card draw is amazing.

Thanks for your list and congratz at making top 16 :wink:

[caprino]

Hi, i like Legend mud (ulamog, ugin, karn ecc...) send me lists Legend mud... Thanks

[MGB]

Someone can share a "stock" list of Legend MUD?

Wanna try a bit !

Thanks!



Hi, i like Legend mud (ulamog, ugin, karn ecc...) send me lists Legend mud... Thanks



4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Karakas
3 Vesuva
2 Crystal Vein
1 Eye of Ugin

2 Emrakul, the Promised End
3 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
4 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Karn Liberated
4 Thought-Knot Seer

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
2 Basalt Monolith
4 Grim Monolith
2 Thran Dynamo
4 Voltaic Key

SB:
2 Coercive Portal
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Wurmcoil Engine


Some SBing Tips:

vs. Grixis Delver:
-3 Karn Liberated
+3 Wurmcoil Engine

vs. Storm:
-2 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
+2 Phyrexian Revoker

vs. Miracles:
-4 Thought-Knot Seer
+2 Coercive Portal
+2 Phyrexian Revoker

vs. Death'n'Taxes:
-2 Trinisphere
+2 Phyrexian Revoker

vs. Dredge:
-3 Karn Liberated
-1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
+4 Leyline of the Void

vs. Eldrazi:
-4 Chalice of the Void
-3 Trinisphere
-2 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
+4 Ensnaring Bridge
+3 Wurmcoil Engine
+2 Phyrexian Revoker

vs. Stoneblade:
-2 Thought-Knot Seer
+2 Coercive Portal

vs. Reanimator:
-2 Thran Dynamo
-2 Voltaic Key
-2 Basalt Monolith
-2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
+4 Ensnaring Bridge
+4 Leyline of the Void

vs. Sneak'n'Show:
-2 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
-2 Basalt Monolith
-2 Voltaic Key
+4 Ensnaring Bridge
+2 Phyrexian Revoker

[caprino]

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Karakas
3 Vesuva
2 Crystal Vein
1 Eye of Ugin

2 Emrakul, the Promised End
3 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
4 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Karn Liberated
4 Thought-Knot Seer

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
2 Basalt Monolith
4 Grim Monolith
2 Thran Dynamo
4 Voltaic Key

SB:
2 Coercive Portal
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Wurmcoil Engine


Some SBing Tips:

vs. Grixis Delver:
-3 Karn Liberated
+3 Wurmcoil Engine

vs. Storm:
-2 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
+2 Phyrexian Revoker

vs. Miracles:
-4 Thought-Knot Seer
+2 Coercive Portal
+2 Phyrexian Revoker

vs. Death'n'Taxes:
-2 Trinisphere
+2 Phyrexian Revoker

vs. Dredge:
-3 Karn Liberated
-1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
+4 Leyline of the Void

vs. Eldrazi:
-4 Chalice of the Void
-3 Trinisphere
-2 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
+4 Ensnaring Bridge
+3 Wurmcoil Engine
+2 Phyrexian Revoker

vs. Stoneblade:
-2 Thought-Knot Seer
+2 Coercive Portal

vs. Reanimator:
-2 Thran Dynamo
-2 Voltaic Key
-2 Basalt Monolith
-2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
+4 Ensnaring Bridge
+4 Leyline of the Void

vs. Sneak'n'Show:
-2 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
-2 Basalt Monolith
-2 Voltaic Key
+4 Ensnaring Bridge
+2 Phyrexian Revoker

nice list side vs infect,elf,omnitell,agro loam,jund,burn,bug ?thanks

[MGB]

nice list side vs infect,elf,omnitell,agro loam,jund,burn,bug ?thanks

vs. Infect:
no sbing... just hope chalice @ 1 gets you there =)

vs. Elves:
-2 Voltaic Key
-3 Karn Liberated
+2 Phyrexian Revoker
+3 Wurmcoil Engine

vs. Omnitell:
basically same sb as vs Sneak'n'Show because they are usually the same deck now

vs. Jund/AggroLoam/BUG:
-4 Thought-Knot Seer
-1 Basalt Monolith
+2 Coercive Portal
+3 Wurmcoil Engine

vs. Burn:
-3 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
+3 Wurmcoil Engine

[Ganfar]

vs. Infect:
no sbing... just hope chalice @ 1 gets you there =)

vs. Elves:
-2 Voltaic Key
-3 Karn Liberated
+2 Phyrexian Revoker
+3 Wurmcoil Engine

vs. Omnitell:
basically same sb as vs Sneak'n'Show because they are usually the same deck now

vs. Jund/AggroLoam/BUG:
-4 Thought-Knot Seer
-1 Basalt Monolith
+2 Coercive Portal
+3 Wurmcoil Engine

vs. Burn:
-3 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
+3 Wurmcoil Engine

Warping Wail seems good for all the match-ups. Not Burn.

Exile Infect cretures and Elves. Counter Hymn and Show and Tells. Make a dude to be sac for Liliana.

[caprino]

vs. Infect:
no sbing... just hope chalice @ 1 gets you there =)

vs. Elves:
-2 Voltaic Key
-3 Karn Liberated
+2 Phyrexian Revoker
+3 Wurmcoil Engine

vs. Omnitell:
basically same sb as vs Sneak'n'Show because they are usually the same deck now

vs. Jund/AggroLoam/BUG:
-4 Thought-Knot Seer
-1 Basalt Monolith
+2 Coercive Portal
+3 Wurmcoil Engine

vs. Burn:
-3 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
+3 Wurmcoil Engine

Vs infect no ensnaring bridge?

[Fry]

Vs infect no ensnaring bridge?



With Infect, it really doesn't do much as they can attack (as they typically do) before pumping the critter.

[MGB]

Warping Wail seems good for all the match-ups. Not Burn.

Exile Infect cretures and Elves. Counter Hymn and Show and Tells. Make a dude to be sac for Liliana.

Definitely a good card to try out at some point.

Might even be a MD candidate because it kind of contributes to the whole "mana ramp" theme of the deck (EOT Wail, +1 mana next turn, sometimes 1 mana is the difference between being able to cast Ugin/Emrakul/etc and not)

[caprino]

Definitely a good card to try out at some point.

Might even be a MD candidate because it kind of contributes to the whole "mana ramp" theme of the deck (EOT Wail, +1 mana next turn, sometimes 1 mana is the difference between being able to cast Ugin/Emrakul/etc and not)
Why no new ulamog main deck? Emrakul new is good?

[MGB]

Why no new ulamog main deck? Emrakul new is good?

Ulamog is good but I think Emrakul is better.

Before Emrakul was printed I played 2 Ulamog in that slot... sometimes even when you cast Ulamog you still lose, like vs. Miracles, they can just handle it even if you exile two lands. With Emrakul, you can mess up their hand and turn and make sure that you can win more often, imho.

Kozilek is the best because he draws you more stuff.

The only time I miss Ulamog is when I *absolutely* have to deal with something *that turn*, but 4 Ugin and 3 Karn is usually good enough for that kind of effect.

[caprino]

Today test Legend mud list MGB... 3 0 win Vs infect 2 0(trinisphere gg) , infect 2 1 (G3 trinisphere turn 1 karn turn 3...) death and taxes 2 0...i think warping wail main deck is good - 2 trinisphere + 2 warping wail?

[The Big Ragu]

I wonder if Planar Bridge will be showing up in this deck.

[caprino]

I wonder if Planar Bridge will be showing up in this deck.

Planar bridge one copy main deck in Legend mud is very nice...yesterday i test Legend mud (lista MGB) win 5 game Vs miracle 2/0, loam 2/1,burn 2/1,shardless bug 2/0,bug delver 2/1...and lose 1/2 Vs bug delver...i think this deck is very strong!!! In side i think 2 spine of ish Vs show and tell.

[MGB]

On the new cards:

- Paradox Engine: It seems like a potent mana generation device in this deck (all variants), but by itself it does nothing until you have mana rocks or Metalworker in play. And then you have to cast a spell on top of that to generate mana. So in effect it's comparable to, say, a more expensive Thran Dynamo that doesn't generate mana on its on. The upside is larger, but getting stuck with a 5 mana blank might be too much of a downside in this deck. And what do we cut to make room for this in either version of the MUD deck?

- Planar Bridge: So tutoring for artifacts is obviously powerful, as both Tinker and Forgemaster have shown us. The question for me, however, is: is a whopping 14 mana worth the tutor effect? Forgemaster costs 5 mana and 3 artifacts. I just don't see this being relevant early enough often enough. I mean, 14 mana is just alot. With Forgemaster, you play it much earlier and the artifacts you're saccing are often negligible. The upside to the bridge, though, is that it is resistant to creature removal which plagues Forgemaster.

[caprino]

On the new cards:

- Paradox Engine: It seems like a potent mana generation device in this deck (all variants), but by itself it does nothing until you have mana rocks or Metalworker in play. And then you have to cast a spell on top of that to generate mana. So in effect it's comparable to, say, a more expensive Thran Dynamo that doesn't generate mana on its on. The upside is larger, but getting stuck with a 5 mana blank might be too much of a downside in this deck. And what do we cut to make room for this in either version of the MUD deck?

- Planar Bridge: So tutoring for artifacts is obviously powerful, as both Tinker and Forgemaster have shown us. The question for me, however, is: is a whopping 14 mana worth the tutor effect? Forgemaster costs 5 mana and 3 artifacts. I just don't see this being relevant early enough often enough. I mean, 14 mana is just alot. With Forgemaster, you play it much earlier and the artifacts you're saccing are often negligible. The upside to the bridge, though, is that it is resistant to creature removal which plagues Forgemaster.
Do you think planar bridge and paradox engine main deck in Legend mud? Side out?

[L10]

I think Planar Bridge fits in the 12-Post MUD hybrid because it allows you to tutor for and cheat in Emrakul. Eight mana is very steep for most MUD lists, and the ramp usually comes in bursts. Kuldotha Forgemaster also has the added benefit of being a 3/5 tank, which is surprisingly relevant.
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD06858S/

[caprino]

I think Planar Bridge fits in the 12-Post MUD hybrid because it allows you to tutor for and cheat in Emrakul. Eight mana is very steep for most MUD lists, and the ramp usually comes in bursts. Kuldotha Forgemaster also has the added benefit of being a 3/5 tank, which is surprisingly relevant.
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD06858S/

1 planar bridge main deck side out 1 staff of nin?

[Stuart]

Question for all the traditional (i.e. Metalworker) MUD pilots on here: how many of you have dropped Blightsteel from your main? And if you have, what did you replace it with?

My meta has been prettty fair for the last year, so it's become very rare that I get Blightsteel wins. I've kept it in because I like having an "Oops I Win" button, but it might be correct to play something else in that slot. What I'm not sure is if I cut it, do I use that slot on another Forgemaster target, or on something that helps the deck curve out better (e.g. another TKS, or maybe a Coercive Portal)?

[Ganfar]

Question for all the traditional (i.e. Metalworker) MUD pilots on here: how many of you have dropped Blightsteel from your main? And if you have, what did you replace it with?

My meta has been prettty fair for the last year, so it's become very rare that I get Blightsteel wins. I've kept it in because I like having an "Oops I Win" button, but it might be correct to play something else in that slot. What I'm not sure is if I cut it, do I use that slot on another Forgemaster target, or on something that helps the deck curve out better (e.g. another TKS, or maybe a Coercive Portal)?

I have played the deck in 6 months and I have never sideboraded Blightsteel. Forgemaster becomes more scary when you have Blightsteel. For exemple I could win against D&T one game when I have a active Forgemaster, but I had Blightsteel on my hand so I couldn't get it and lost.

I usally remove Spine of Ish Sah, it's a slow removel most of the time.

[Mosesthecoot]

So, I bought 2 Planar Bridge just in case they spiked any further.. If anything, they will go in any EDH deck that I have laying around. I don't think it's worth the slot at all in traditional MUD. The same goes for Paradox Engine. I believe that the only use for the Engine would be in Legend MUD where you have more mana rocks and the like.

However! Freaking Walking Ballista, I'm calling it now, is going to be amazing. I took out my 3 main TKS and replaced them with the Ballista to shore up the faster decks. It's great against DnT, one of my most frustrating matchups. It's a win con, it's removal, it's a mana sink, it's cheap early and huge late game. I'm also testing a 1-of Contagion Engine in the main. I was never a huge fan of the card as a sideboard option but now I'm trying it as a md sweeper as well as pumping all the Ballista and even Ugin. +5ing Ugin every turn is just silly.

I'm excited.

[Stuart]

I have played the deck in 6 months and I have never sideboraded Blightsteel. Forgemaster becomes more scary when you have Blightsteel. For exemple I could win against D&T one game when I have a active Forgemaster, but I had Blightsteel on my hand so I couldn't get it and lost.

I usally remove Spine of Ish Sah, it's a slow removel most of the time.

So, I agree with you that Forgemaster is much scarier when it can 1-shot your opponent. However, there are lots of times that Blightsteel just puts the opponent to 9 infect, or as you mentioned, you draw it and can never cast it. Nowadays, I find that tutoring up Sundering Titan, Emperion, or Spine tends to cover most situations.



However! Freaking Walking Ballista, I'm calling it now, is going to be amazing. I took out my 3 main TKS and replaced them with the Ballista to shore up the faster decks. It's great against DnT, one of my most frustrating matchups. It's a win con, it's removal, it's a mana sink, it's cheap early and huge late game. I'm also testing a 1-of Contagion Engine in the main. I was never a huge fan of the card as a sideboard option but now I'm trying it as a md sweeper as well as pumping all the Ballista and even Ugin. +5ing Ugin every turn is just silly.


I like everything about this paragraph. Not 100% sold on Ballista, but anything that helps our DnT matchup is worth trying. Contagion Engine has been a sideboard allstar for me for a long time now, and given how fair the meta is, maybe it can make the leap maindeck (especially as I'm considering dropping Blightsteel). I have some reservations about including a maindeck card that's dead in some matchups, but maybe the upside is enough to justify it . . .

[Ganfar]

So, I agree with you that Forgemaster is much scarier when it can 1-shot your opponent. However, there are lots of times that Blightsteel just puts the opponent to 9 infect, or as you mentioned, you draw it and can never cast it. Nowadays, I find that tutoring up Sundering Titan, Emperion, or Spine tends to cover most situations.

Yes, I hate to draw Blightsteel but I have hardcasted it once!

But yeah, Sundering Titan against a deck two or more color is almost always autowin. I still like Blightsteel and still going to play it.

But maybe you should try out another Sundering Titan instead of Blightsteel? If you do, take a note in games when you feel a Blightsteel should be better to have.

[Mosesthecoot]

ck I have some reservations about including a maindeck card that's dead in some matchups, but maybe the upside is enough to justify it . . .

I get that but it won't be 100% dead as it still double charges ALL your Ballista in play! You can always side it out against MUs where you don't need the sweeping motion. And it's just one, anyways! Glad you're seeing what I'm seeing though.

[grokh]

On the new cards:

- Paradox Engine: It seems like a potent mana generation device in this deck (all variants), but by itself it does nothing until you have mana rocks or Metalworker in play. And then you have to cast a spell on top of that to generate mana. So in effect it's comparable to, say, a more expensive Thran Dynamo that doesn't generate mana on its on. The upside is larger, but getting stuck with a 5 mana blank might be too much of a downside in this deck. And what do we cut to make room for this in either version of the MUD deck?


You seem to forgot, depending on which creatures you got in your list, the fact that Paradox engine could allow you to attack then block in the next turn with your creatures, as it untap all your creatures too !

[Gaudy]

i was unable to play this deck, i try it for a year, i really love it, but it was too complicated for me, do you have any guide of how to play it?

[Stuart]

i was unable to play this deck, i try it for a year, i really love it, but it was too complicated for me, do you have any guide of how to play it?

Hmm, that's interesting. I don't find the deck too complicated, but maybe I'm just used to it. MUD isn't exactly a Stompy deck, but we share Stompy's Sol Land/Chalice DNA, and we're also based on the idea of slamming big plays quickly. As such, you want to familiarize yourself with some of the core skills of playing Stompy or Vintage Shops. Mulligans are arguably the biggest skill to the deck, as you need an opening hand with the mana and lock pieces/threat (depending on the matchup) to win the game. After that, it's just understanding sequencing, how some of the cards interact (e.g. Staff of Domination and Metalworker), and how to approach your tougher matchups (DnT, BGx decks).

What list were you on and what did you find difficult about it?

[Gaudy]

Hmm, that's interesting. I don't find the deck too complicated, but maybe I'm just used to it. MUD isn't exactly a Stompy deck, but we share Stompy's Sol Land/Chalice DNA, and we're also based on the idea of slamming big plays quickly. As such, you want to familiarize yourself with some of the core skills of playing Stompy or Vintage Shops. Mulligans are arguably the biggest skill to the deck, as you need an opening hand with the mana and lock pieces/threat (depending on the matchup) to win the game. After that, it's just understanding sequencing, how some of the cards interact (e.g. Staff of Domination and Metalworker), and how to approach your tougher matchups (DnT, BGx decks).

What list were you on and what did you find difficult about it?



i'm confortable playing a aggro deck (i play naya burn in modern, burn in legacy and any aggro strategy in standar). I got the idea of sol land + chalice or trinisphere for the initial hand and try to lock my oponent, but i still have struggle ensamble the pieces for the win, especialy against DnT. Probably you laugh about me, but to me is very dificult protec the "combo" pieces, very often i found my self unable to defend the worker or locked by a revoker on the monolith. may be i'm rushing to an early win and lossing for that, but i can't find the tempo of the deck. For example when i play burn it is feel like a jazz swing with a clear beat and when a use MUD the feeling is so diferent that i can't find the gap or timing to make the move.


this is my list:


//Lands (23)
3 Wasteland
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
4 vesuba

//No crestures (16)
4 Grim Monolith
2 Tharn Dynamo
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Domination

//creatures (21)
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Sundering Titan

//Walker 3
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
the difficult part to me it's the aproch vs creature deck like DnT, jund, bug, i have won tournament where the majority of the meta game are combo but i have almost no succes in the other meta, am i reading wrong this deck?

[Mosesthecoot]

I would say D+T is going to be one of your
Tougher matchups. It'll most likely come down to how you are sideboarding. D+T used Vial which renders our Chalice and Trinisphere virtually useless as they can play the long game along with us. Their lands will work against us and give them the tempo rather than us stalling to land our win conditions. It's easier to ramp up to a Wurmcoil engine when you aren't getting Wastelanded and Ported in the early to late turns. Their port can cut us off of 2-8 mana with a single whack so, it's quite harsh.

Back to my original point.. it's either modify your main board to equip yourself to fight your bad matchups like D+T and BGx decks, or concede that the rest of your matchups are good, and focus on putting your D+T hate in the sideboard. For example, I run 3 Warping Wail main, 3 Needle sideboard, 1 Endbringer and 2 Ratchet Bomb sideboard. I take out the Chalices (especially if I'm on the draw), some ramp and some combo pieces in order to maintain the early game while still setting up for the late game.

Hope this way helpful. My ideas were all over the place :)

[Ganfar]

I would say D+T is going to be one of your
Tougher matchups. It'll most likely come down to how you are sideboarding. D+T used Vial which renders our Chalice and Trinisphere virtually useless as they can play the long game along with us. Their lands will work against us and give them the tempo rather than us stalling to land our win conditions. It's easier to ramp up to a Wurmcoil engine when you aren't getting Wastelanded and Ported in the early to late turns. Their port can cut us off of 2-8 mana with a single whack so, it's quite harsh.

I don't feel the same way. I have played aganist D&T and the matchup feel good. Our Chalices turn 1 stop DT to cast StP and Aethr Vial. Monther of Runes does no shit in game 1. They also need to get a real threat before wastes our land. All of them cost two or more so you have 2-3 turns before they become a problem. By then you can cast Lodestone Golem, Fordgemaster and Metalworker. If they can't stop Metalworker, they are dead. With Warping Wail in sideboard we have good sideboard to.

I disscuss this with a DT player afterwards and we both agree on this.

[Mosesthecoot]

I don't feel the same way. I have played aganist D&T and the matchup feel good. Our Chalices turn 1 stop DT to cast StP and Aethr Vial. Monther of Runes does no shit in game 1. They also need to get a real threat before wastes our land. All of them cost two or more so you have 2-3 turns before they become a problem. By then you can cast Lodestone Golem, Fordgemaster and Metalworker. If they can't stop Metalworker, they are dead. With Warping Wail in sideboard we have good sideboard to.

I disscuss this with a DT player afterwards and we both agree on this.

I'm just going off personal experience. If we DONT hit the turn 1 Chalice, Vial is pretty brutal. They don't need their lands once they have one out so, they don't need to use their lands for
Mana but rather they can use them to 'tax' ours. All they have to do is land a flier in the early game and we are going to be playing catch up. They have MD Revoker for Forgemaster and I BELIEVE, without double checking, Metalworker. I'm not so concerned with Swords because they only have 4 and we have enough must-remove threats that eventually, we'll come out on top.

Moral of the story (as it is with most D+T MUs) is that Vial makes the game much more difficult. If we can keep them off turn 1 or 2 Vial, the game shouldn't be too difficult.

P.S. Warping Wail on Flickereisp??? that's gross haha.

[Poron]

that's why I am trying 2 Phyrexian Revoker maindeck and the third in SB.

[caprino]

List Legend mud is possible? Thanks

[Mosesthecoot]

that's why I am trying 2 Phyrexian Revoker maindeck and the third in SB.

What is unfortunate about that is that Revoker can't name Wasteland or Port :/

[Poron]

it gets those nasty planeswalkers and equipments though

[Ganfar]

it gets those nasty planeswalkers and equipments though

And Deathrite Shaman. Revoker is really good card.

[Mosesthecoot]

And Deathrite Shaman. Revoker is really good card.

It's great. I recently switched them out for needles though. I was talking more about Desth and Taxes which doesn't run DRS. The Gideon out of the board can also be caught with the Needle! Bam

[Stuart]

. . . can't find the tempo of the deck. For example when i play burn it is feel like a jazz swing with a clear beat and when a use MUD the feeling is so diferent that i can't find the gap or timing to make the move.
. . .
the difficult part to me it's the aproch vs creature deck like DnT, jund, bug, i have won tournament where the majority of the meta game are combo but i have almost no succes in the other meta, am i reading wrong this deck?

Thanks for expanding on this! You're right that MUD is a very different style than something like Burn, which is smoother and leaner. I would recommend goldfishing the deck a lot, so you can start to understand the patterns and what hands to keep.

However, as Mosesthecoot points out, decks like DnT, BUG, and Jund are some of our worst matchups. They're not unwinnable matchups, but those decks all attack resources that MUD relies on and can't easily defend:
- They tax our manabase via Wasteland and Port.
- In addition, they can easily kill/shut off Metalworkers and Grim Monoliths with cards like StP, Abrupt Decay, Revoker, and Punishing Fire.
- They can attack our hand with cards like Hymn and Lilliana. As we have very little card draw and library manipulation, this can ruin us in the early/mid game.
- DnT gets around our taxing effects with Aether Vial, and can use Flickerwisp to make our Chalices useless against StP (by setting it to 0).
- BUG decks also get to run countermagic, which is just 1 more level of disruption to play through.

If your meta is defined by DnT and BGx decks, MUD is not going to be a total powerhouse. That said, I don't want to discourage you from playing the deck! You will still win some matchups against those decks because of MUD's raw power level; when you resolve cards like Wurmcoil and Ugin, things get ugly. I would also recommend tuning your sideboard with cards like Ratchet Bomb, Coercive Portal, Crucible of Worlds, and anything else that can let you grind.

If you like the deck, just practice it and tweak it, and sometimes you'll still stomp the shit out of everyone :smile:.


It's great. I recently switched them out for needles though. I was talking more about Desth and Taxes which doesn't run DRS. The Gideon out of the board can also be caught with the Needle! Bam

I also prefer Needle over Revoker. The added ability to shut off Wasteland, Port, and Stage/Depths is really nice. Obviously Needle + Chalice is a nonbo, but for the matchups I want it (DnT and anything running Loam), I'm usually either boarding out Chalice or trying to play it for 2.

[Mosesthecoot]

I also prefer Needle over Revoker. The added ability to shut off Wasteland, Port, and Stage/Depths is really nice. Obviously Needle + Chalice is a nonbo, but for the matchups I want it (DnT and anything running Loam), I'm usually either boarding out Chalice or trying to play it for 2.

I forgot about Lands heh. I'm working on my sideboard strategies for specific matchups very much still. I hate taking out Chalice but I heard it was correct vs D+T. That leaves the 1 spot open for the needle which, has got to hit about 7 things in that deck haha

[Gaudy]

tank to all of you for take my question so seriously, i will make some change to my sb plan based in your answer

[Mosesthecoot]

tank to all of you for take my question so seriously, i will make some change to my sb plan based in your answer

Let us know how it goes! :)

[caprino]

I love Legend mud, ramp eldrazi coloress...help me decklist. Thanks

[BlackHawkX9]

With BUG being such a large force right now thanks to leovauld, I've been strongly considering going back to a 2-3 sundering titan version of mud. Also, in my experience, I've always had issues with elves, and it makes me so happy that elves have started craming leovauld too, because it slowing them down that 1 extra turn, and spreading their mana base for titan to sweep. I just wanted to get opinions on going with more titans.

Also, on the needle vs revoker argument, I run both. My sideboard usually has a 2/2 split of them. Wasteland, port, thespian stage, etc are all things that need answered by needle that revoker can't hit. And the fact that revoker actually hit mana abilities, makes it good for LED, heritage druid, lotus petal, etc. And then ofcourse all the overlap of deathrite, planeswalkers, top, vial, etc. They both have their purpose for one over the other. Personally I find them both too useful to not have both.

[IOWA]

Do you guys think Welder MUD can be competitive in this meta ?

[Stuart]

With BUG being such a large force right now thanks to leovauld, I've been strongly considering going back to a 2-3 sundering titan version of mud. Also, in my experience, I've always had issues with elves, and it makes me so happy that elves have started craming leovauld too, because it slowing them down that 1 extra turn, and spreading their mana base for titan to sweep. I just wanted to get opinions on going with more titans.

I think 2 Sundering Titan is fine. Obviously increasing your number of 8-drops isn't ideal when you're worried about decks that attack all your resources like BUG does, but you could at least swap a Blightsteel for another Titan.


Do you guys think Welder MUD can be competitive in this meta ?

MUD is still ridiculously powerful when you draw good hands, so when you run hot you stomp people. That's always been the case. However, there are a few things working against the deck nowadays:
- Ever since Eldrazi showed up, people have developed strategies to beat Chalice decks. Case in point: I lost 4 of my last 5 Miracles matchups, when I used to consider that match unloseable.
- BUG and DnT are strong against us, and they're both widely played right now.
- Storm has really gone into hiding, and that's our best matchup.

That said, was MUD ever really the correct pick in the last few years? I guess it was good during the DTT era, when everyone was on mono 1-drops and didn't prepare for Chalice. But even when the meta is right, the deck's so inconsistent that you're either gonna have really good days or really bad days. Others may disagree, but I'd just say that you should play the deck if you're comfortable with the idea that sometimes you'll eat the bear, and sometimes the bear will eat you.

[caprino]

Decklist Legend mud please. Thanks

[Echelon]

Decklist Legend mud please. Thanks

Donkey Lightbulb Snorkel you're welcome.

[caprino]

Donkey Lightbulb Snorkel you're welcome.

????? Is site Legend mud?

[Mosesthecoot]

I love Legend mud, ramp eldrazi coloress...help me decklist. Thanks



Just go back a few pages. They're everywhere!

[BlackHawkX9]

Do you guys think Welder MUD can be competitive in this meta ?

Ever since the printing of combustible gearhulk, I've been thinking this same thing. I haven't gotten to test it yet, but it seems interesting in theory.

[Silverflame]

When legend mud works, it's just silly.
Drew lots of cards with staff, casted bridge, activated it for ugin, cleared the board off Jace and friends. Got infinite next turn.

http://i.imgur.com/OqT8Fzg.jpg

[Stuart]

Silverflame, what's your list? I've never seen a Legends MUD list with Metalworker/Staff, so I'm intrigued.

[sco0ter]

Ever since the printing of combustible gearhulk, I've been thinking this same thing. I haven't gotten to test it yet, but it seems interesting in theory.

And ever since the printing of Walking Ballista, I've been thinking about some interaction with Verdurous Gearhulk + Goblin Welder.

Actually I think all the Gearhulks excecpt the blue one have potential with Welder.

[Silverflame]

Silverflame, what's your list? I've never seen a Legends MUD list with Metalworker/Staff, so I'm intrigued.

I'm not sure it's really great, but I took off keys because I was flooding too often or drawing them when i didn't need. it slows down a bit, so I focused on more drawing and tutoring effects. It's still terrible versus null rod unless you get a karn from post. Staff is great with the extra mana.

1 Planar Bridge
1 Staff of Domination
4 Walking Ballista
4 Cloudpost
1 Thran Dynamo
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 City of Traitors
2 Karn Liberated
2 Basalt Monolith
4 Coercive Portal
3 Karakas
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Vesuva
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Inventors' Fair
4 Glimmerpost
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Grim Monolith
1 Hedron Archive
4 Metalworker
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 3 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 4 Lodestone Golem
SB: 1 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 1 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 2 All Is Dust

[Mosesthecoot]

I really don't think the Welder/Gearhulks are any better than the current general list. It might be pretty cool to play when it works but I think there are better builds. I'm all for Ballista (can't wait for mine in the mail) but I think adding red and messing up the fast manabase isn't the way to go..

While I'm posting, what do you guys think we should do for BR Reanimator? I feel like the SCG tournament in Worcester is going to be pretty heavy with it. Currently, I don't have any GY hate other than a singleton Relic... I don't know if surgical is better or just mulling into one of four Leylines. Thoughts?

[BlackHawkX9]

I really don't think the Welder/Gearhulks are any better than the current general list. It might be pretty cool to play when it works but I think there are better builds. I'm all for Ballista (can't wait for mine in the mail) but I think adding red and messing up the fast manabase isn't the way to go..

While I'm posting, what do you guys think we should do for BR Reanimator? I feel like the SCG tournament in Worcester is going to be pretty heavy with it. Currently, I don't have any GY hate other than a singleton Relic... I don't know if surgical is better or just mulling into one of four Leylines. Thoughts?

Faerie macabre and tormod's crypt have become my default graveyard hate. Both available turn 0-1 for free. Also, macabre gives you a free clock against the reanimater that goes for exhume.

[Stuart]

Likewise, I just switched onto Faerie Macabre after playing Tormod's Crypt for a long time. I wanted some way of interacting with RB Reanimator on turn 0. Surgical can get stopped by Chancellor and gets shut off by our Chalices, so that was a no-go. Leyline was tempting for me, but mulligans are a huge part of playing MUD effectively so I didn't want 4 cards that force you to mull but otherwise aren't castable.

[Silverflame]

Likewise, I just switched onto Faerie Macabre after playing Tormod's Crypt for a long time. I wanted some way of interacting with RB Reanimator on turn 0. Surgical can get stopped by Chancellor and gets shut off by our Chalices, so that was a no-go. Leyline was tempting for me, but mulligans are a huge part of playing MUD effectively so I didn't want 4 cards that force you to mull but otherwise aren't castable.

Agreed. Tormod is only better against Lands, but Reanimator is a bigger part of the field right now. Leylines are unplayable on MUD.

[Mosesthecoot]

Agreed. Tormod is only better against Lands, but Reanimator is a bigger part of the field right now. Leylines are unplayable on MUD.

Great stuff! Thank you guys/gals. Do you plan on running the full four-of of macabre? My sideboard is pretty tight but I have a feeling I'll need them.

[Stuart]

I'm on 3 Faeries. I cut my 2 Tormod's, as well as a 4th Trinisphere that I haven't boarded in in forever. Our Chalices, Trinispheres, Lodestones, and Wastelands are all pretty strong against graveyard decks, so 3-4 pieces of grave hate might be unnecessary anyway.

(For reference, here's my current board:
- 1 Karn
- 1 Platinum Angel
- 1 Spine
- 1 Contagion Engine
- 2 Coercive Portal
- 2 Crucible
- 2 Ratchet Bomb
- 2 Needle
- 3 Faerie)

[Ganfar]

I'm on 3 Faeries. I cut my 2 Tormod's, as well as a 4th Trinisphere that I haven't boarded in in forever. Our Chalices, Trinispheres, Lodestones, and Wastelands are all pretty strong against graveyard decks, so 3-4 pieces of grave hate might be unnecessary anyway.

(For reference, here's my current board:
- 1 Karn
- 1 Platinum Angel
- 1 Spine
- 1 Contagion Engine
- 2 Coercive Portal
- 2 Crucible
- 2 Ratchet Bomb
- 2 Needle
- 3 Faerie)

Faeries seems really nice to use in MUD sideborad. As you said, you can stop reminator even if they starts.

I also realize that Walking Ballista can be really good card in the MUD deck. We can cast in turn two, grow it when we flood and we can kill small cretures that we usally can't kill.

I will get at least one in my mainborad.

[Mosesthecoot]

This is what I'll be running after the Macabre addition to the board. I took out Duplicant, Batterskull and Ratchet Bomb. I want more Bombs but I haven't yet decided what to take out.. probably the endbringer and Wurmcoil?

I 4-0'd last week beating Boros Prison w/ Nahiri combo, 2x Miracles and Turbo Depths. I can be more detailed if curious but I've gone 6-2 in matches at my local store. I haven't even gotten to play against Sultai and I'm dying to! Haha

4x Lodestone Golem
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Blightsteel Colossus
3x Walking Ballista
1x Sundering Titan
1x Platinum Emperion
2x Thought-Knot Seer
4x Metalworker
3x Kuldotha Forgemaster
(20)

2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
(2)

4x Chalice of the Void
3x Trinisphere
4x Grim Monolith
2x Warping Wail
2x Lightning Greaves
(15)

3x Wasteland
2x Cavern of Souls
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
1x Vesuva
1x Inventors' Fair
(23) 60 cards

Sideboard

3x Faerie Macabre
1x Contagion Engine
3x Pithing Needle
1x Staff of Nin
1x Wurmcoil Engine
2x Coercive Portal
1x Endbringer
2x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Trinisphere

[Jakobian1010]

This is what I'll be running after the Macabre addition to the board. I took out Duplicant, Batterskull and Ratchet Bomb. I want more Bombs but I haven't yet decided what to take out.. probably the endbringer and Wurmcoil?

I 4-0'd last week beating Boros Prison w/ Nahiri combo, 2x Miracles and Turbo Depths. I can be more detailed if curious but I've gone 6-2 in matches at my local store. I haven't even gotten to play against Sultai and I'm dying to! Haha

4x Lodestone Golem
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Blightsteel Colossus
3x Walking Ballista
1x Sundering Titan
1x Platinum Emperion
2x Thought-Knot Seer
4x Metalworker
3x Kuldotha Forgemaster
(20)

2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
(2)

4x Chalice of the Void
3x Trinisphere
4x Grim Monolith
2x Warping Wail
2x Lightning Greaves
(15)

3x Wasteland
2x Cavern of Souls
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
1x Vesuva
1x Inventors' Fair
(23) 60 cards

Sideboard

3x Faerie Macabre
1x Contagion Engine
3x Pithing Needle
1x Staff of Nin
1x Wurmcoil Engine
2x Coercive Portal
1x Endbringer
2x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Trinisphere

I like this list. How has walking ballista performed? Seems like some new tech to try out against stuff like D&T or delver.

[Ganfar]

I will try this list.

I will cut 1 Batterskull and 2 Coercive Portal for 2 Walking Ballista. I think it can be really good. I don't anyother cards I want to cut.


//Main
2 Walking Ballista
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Platinum Angel
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine

1 Lightning Greaves
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Domination
2 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Coercive Portal
4 Grim Monolith

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Inventors' Fair
2 Vesuva
3 Wasteland

//Sideboard
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 Duplicant
SB: 3 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 1 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Trinisphere
SB: 2 Warping Wail

[Runninonwater]

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Karakas
3 Vesuva
2 Crystal Vein
1 Eye of Ugin

2 Emrakul, the Promised End
3 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
4 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Karn Liberated
4 Thought-Knot Seer

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
2 Basalt Monolith
4 Grim Monolith
2 Thran Dynamo
4 Voltaic Key

SB:
2 Coercive Portal
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Wurmcoil Engine




Just a question, but what do you think about Inspiring Statuary in this deck? Is it just a win more card? Maybe as a one of?
All the Chalices can tap for mana towards eldrazis, warping wails etc.

[Mosesthecoot]

I will try this list.

I will cut 1 Batterskull and 2 Coercive Portal for 2 Walking Ballista. I think it can be really good. I don't anyother cards I want to cut.


//Main
2 Walking Ballista
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Platinum Angel
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine

1 Lightning Greaves
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Domination
2 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Coercive Portal
4 Grim Monolith

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Inventors' Fair
2 Vesuva
3 Wasteland

//Sideboard
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 Duplicant
SB: 3 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 1 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Trinisphere
SB: 2 Warping Wail


Nice. I like it. Walking Ballista is untested other than goldfishing because my
Preorder hasn't come in the mail yet. I've got to imagine it's going to pull its weight. Ballista is also upping my artifact count for Metalworker which, I was getting frustrated at last week haha

[Mosesthecoot]

Just a question, but what do you think about Inspiring Statuary in this deck? Is it just a win more card? Maybe as a one of?
All the Chalices can tap for mana towards eldrazis, warping wails etc.

I agree it's probably a win more but with the list above, it may be worth a test? Horrible in multiples though.

[BlackHawkX9]

I agree it's probably a win more but with the list above, it may be worth a test? Horrible in multiples though.

Inspiring sanctuary effectively becomes an eldrazi mana rock, in multiples. Maybe in a more prison style mud list that is heavier on the planeswalkers would inspiring sanctuary be better.

[Ganfar]

Nice. I like it. Walking Ballista is untested other than goldfishing because my
Preorder hasn't come in the mail yet. I've got to imagine it's going to pull its weight. Ballista is also upping my artifact count for Metalworker which, I was getting frustrated at last week haha
I think it can be great against Delver and D&T.

To able to kill a delver on turn one is really nice.

I think the D&T Matchup becomes better becasue now you can kill Thalia and Flicker Wisp.

[Silverflame]

I tested ballista a bit online and on paper with my team, training for the big tournament this weekend. It was good enough to be needled blindly because everytime I activated it, it was at least 2 for 1. That's the reason I was thinking about upping the mana rocks (like the legends list) to improve its usage. It is also a guaranteed kill when you combo with staff, even better than blighsteel with greaves.




Just a question, but what do you think about Inspiring Statuary in this deck? Is it just a win more card? Maybe as a one of?
All the Chalices can tap for mana towards eldrazis, warping wails etc.
It could work, just remember to NOT use trinisphere to generate mana, as its effect only works when it is untapped.

[Barachai]

Somewhat in a different direction, but I was thinking of playing the following for FNM. It's probably horribly inconsistent but seems like a blast.

4 Walking Ballista
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Hangarback Walker
2 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere

1 Staff of Domination
4 Grim Monolith
4 Metalworker

4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 City of Traitors
1 Vesuva
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Inventors’ Fair

Sideboard:
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

[Runninonwater]

I tested ballista a bit online and on paper with my team, training for the big tournament this weekend. It was good enough to be needled blindly because everytime I activated it, it was at least 2 for 1. That's the reason I was thinking about upping the mana rocks (like the legends list) to improve its usage. It is also a guaranteed kill when you combo with staff, even better than blighsteel with greaves.




It could work, just remember to NOT use trinisphere to generate mana, as its effect only works when it is untapped.


I noticed that you cannot pay for the colourless manasymbol with the artifacts inspire mechanic, they can only pay for the generic mana but still, its ok tech.

[Runninonwater]

So im gonna finally be playing in a legacy tournament today!

the list im running is this for now, kinda thrown together and i didn't get the cards i needed for today :(
Playing 4 Traitor's because they're nice with revokers, chalice, my 4 drops can get down pretty nicely and timely.
Got 1 Walking Ballista Main to combat tiny creatures and mostly against D n T creatures. Fingured it is better to have mainboard than the 1 of Revoker, so it put the revoker in the sideboard.

Creature (20)
1x Blightsteel Colossus
3x Kuldotha Forgemaster
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Metalworker
1x Platinum Emperion
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Sundering Titan
2x Thought-Knot Seer
1x Walking Ballista
2x Wurmcoil Engine

Planeswalker (2)
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Artifact (15)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Grim Monolith
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Staff of Domination
1x Staff of Nin
3x Trinisphere

Land (23)
4x Ancient Tomb
2x Cavern of Souls
4x City of Traitors
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
2x Vesuva
3x Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
1x Contagion Engine
2x Crucible of Worlds
1x Dismember
2x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Pithing Needle
1x Platinum Angel
1x Ratchet Bomb
1x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Trinisphere

Gonna see if i can take notes and give impressions of what i think about how the deck performed :)

[Airwave]

So im gonna finally be playing in a legacy tournament today!

the list im running is this for now, kinda thrown together and i didn't get the cards i needed for today :(
Playing 4 Traitor's because they're nice with revokers, chalice, my 4 drops can get down pretty nicely and timely.
Got 1 Walking Ballista Main to combat tiny creatures and mostly against D n T creatures. Fingured it is better to have mainboard than the 1 of Revoker, so it put the revoker in the sideboard.

LIST

Gonna see if i can take notes and give impressions of what i think about how the deck performed :)

Good luck! Let us know how it went :cool:

[Runninonwater]

Good luck! Let us know how it went :cool:

Here it is, what i remember haha, forgot to take notes.

First Match:

Faced off against a UR delver deck with Storm Stormchaser Mage and Price of Progress, pretty fast deck.

Game 1 i managed to play a trinisphere turn 2 which got countered and i followed up with a Second one on turn 3. I eventually won
with a resolved Sundering Titan.

Game 2: Sadly i do not remember exactly what i sideboarded in / out but i felt pretty confident in the matchup. Resolved chalices crashes the deck but he managed to Smash, played Stormchase Mages and managed to kill me.
A Balista managed to kill a blind flipped delver which was nice!

Game 3: This is the most memorable: I played turn 1 grim monolith from a city of traitors, he pondered on his turn.
I tapped out with city and monolith and played Thought Knot-Seer, i had 1 mana remaining. He thought for some time and Dazed me. I told him i payed for the Daze and he just cracked... Since he had a Force of Will on hand but played the Daze instead.

Thing is, this player is almost always on point and is usually very aware of the boardstate so i didn't state i had 1 mana floating. And he didn't Force my Grim monolith (which costs 2 mana as WE all know) that i played on turn 1. And he did take alot of time to think about his choice, and because of this i didn't announce such a thing. Shortly after another visiting dude from another town mentioned that you HAVE to announce floating mana but we at the venue talked about it and looked up some tules and it does not seem like i have to announce that. And he didn't ask me either so.

It destroyed him.

My mana was off in game 2 but luckily i didn't get to face any Wastelands.

1-0

second round:

Mono red Sneak attack:

Game 1: So we both joke about Chalice being a dead card mainboard in game 1, i skipped playing mine and thought i could save it for my future Metalworker. Played my land and passed the turn.

He plays Ancient Tomb and Lotus Petal...

Inside my head i just crumbled, ofc he played Lotus petal...

`Sadly i lost.

Game 2 : Sideboarded out 3 Chalices (kept one for the Petals...you never know), Walking Ballista, Staff of nin and a Trinisphere.

+ 2 Bridges, 2 Revoker, Pithing needle and a Platinum Angel.

We both kept a 1 land hand and passed to eachother a couple of turns til i got my second Cloudpost and played my Grimmonolith and a Metalworker.
Next turn a played a Sundering Titan and Wrecked his mountain and played a Revoker.
FOllowed up with Ugin and i had a backup bridge.

I won and he told me that if i didn't played sundering titan on that turn he would've one shotted me.

Game 3: he killed my revoker which was named Lotus Petal with his Inferno Titan that he ritualed into a Through the Breach. He had two ancient tombs and a mountain. I also had a Chalice on 0 that stopped him from playing Petals. I thought Knot-seered looked at his hand and he had a Ingot Chewer, Inferno titan and a Magus of the Moon.

I didn't care much about the Magus since i could still play 3 mana spells like Metalworker, my ancient tomb was killing me since i had to take 11 from a titan Enter and swing. I thoughtt that if i take his Chewer he can't destroy my Revoker which was stopping the Petal activation and he had to take the chalice to play petals.

Problem is ... my revoker was already dead, my thoughts was just a mess and i took the Chewer.
Of course he untaps and Hardcasts the titan and manages to kill me later. I totally forgot he could use the petal.


1-1 :/

Elves

Game 1 : I won the flip, Got a staff of nin turn 2 and just pinged off his dryad arbour he Greeen Sun'd on turn 1, into a turn 3 Ugin from me, he scooped.

Game 2: Sideboarded in a Contagion Engine, Platinum Angel (i think, since i figured if he tries to kill me with Hoof i could just be "immortal" and survive the attack), 1 Revoker and a Ratcher bomb.

Sadly i didn't get to see any of them, he got a quickstart and Ordered for a Progenitus, then he burned me for 6 ish with the GB elf and killed me with Prog. But i could Ping off some elves with the Ballista! that's something!
Game 3: i had to mull down to 5, had a starting hand with lands and a Metalworker, but i just kept drawing lands...

1-2 :(

JUND!

So we had a few problems here where we started playing liek, three times because ppl were late, we couldn't start playing even tho someone said it was ok etc.
He got perfect hands which would've wrecked me, i had some bad 7s and even 5s.
Anyway for the real games:

Game 1: I got a chalice on 1 and followed up with a Lodestone Golem, i got a pretty good lead on him and won, it was too much.

Game 2: Same here, chalice on 1 but he already had a deathrite shaman in play and pinged off my metalworkers ewith Punishing Fire but Sundering Titan destroyed his board.

He was heartbroken because of what happned before the official games but we laughed and had fun, all good fun.

2-2 :)

ELDRAZI!

Game 1: Turn 1 Trinisphere locked him out pretty good, then i played a Thought Knot-Seer into a turn 3 Chalice on 2 which stopped Jitte and such. He couldn't do much.

Game 2: all i can say is, 3 LODESTONE GOLEMS. It locked him out good for a while, i kept them back since i didn't wanted to trade for his Matter Reshaper that he eventually got out. He top decked solland after solland and got a few creatures out but i calmly played my Forge Master and passed. Later i forged out a BLightsteel with 2 lodestone golems still out on the field and he managed to survive two attacks.

Oh and i sideboarded out 4 chalices, 1 Ugin, Sundering Titan and Staff of Nin ( i think).
+ 1 Crucible
1 Revoker
1 Needle
2 Bridges
1 Platinum angel
1 Dismember

Kept a Ugin just in case i had to Ugin's +2 to kill him with Bridge as my protection.

3-2, it was fun and i got to lock out a few opponents.
I still love the deck and i really want to try out More Walking Ballistas.
Thought Knot-Seer was a house and thanks to it i had a better chance against Eldrazi and i could rip cards from my opponents hands, im keeping 2 mainboard, i think.
More walking Ballistas! i want to try them out more. It can kill D&T creatures and Elves. I only got to cast it twice but it was good both times.
Got two more in the mail ^^

Still not sure about my sideboard but im walking into a meta that i don't have any info about.
And im sorry if this was messy but i forgot to take notes, had a horrible morning.

I did however do some misplays which really bothered me but all in all, FUN!

And im trying to get the cards for Legend MUD, i want to try it out!

[Airwave]

Thanks for your report! :cool:

[ottomanottoman]

Somewhat in a different direction, but I was thinking of playing the following for FNM. It's probably horribly inconsistent but seems like a blast.

4 Walking Ballista
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Hangarback Walker
2 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere

1 Staff of Domination
4 Grim Monolith
4 Metalworker

4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 City of Traitors
1 Vesuva
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Inventors’ Fair

Sideboard:
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

I've been thinking of getting into MUD and I was wanting to try some kind of aggro MUD list like this ever since walking ballista has been printed (kind of like a ravager shops port from vintage). Is an aggro mud list viable or should I just be looking at eldrazi at that point?

[Barachai]

I've been thinking of getting into MUD and I was wanting to try some kind of aggro MUD list like this ever since walking ballista has been printed (kind of like a ravager shops port from vintage). Is an aggro mud list viable or should I just be looking at eldrazi at that point?

Only way to know is to test :D hopefully I'll get to do just that this week. The main question I'm looking at is, should the deck aim to be like affinity, traditional mud, or more like vintage with revokers/spheres/crucible?

[ottomanottoman]

Only way to know is to test :D hopefully I'll get to do just that this week. The main question I'm looking at is, should the deck aim to be like affinity, traditional mud, or more like vintage with revokers/spheres/crucible?

Yeah, I'm working on the which direction to take the brew as well. I'm also wanting to try out some vehicles to help punch through with the little guys like revoker and metalworker when I don't want to loose them.

[maCHOOga]

Wow...I'm glad I just happened to stop by this thread. I completely overlooked walking ballista in MUD. One would have thought I would have made the connection after being mowed down by it in standard this past weekend. Thanks for the discussion and the idea!

With all the Kaladesh inventions (and opening a sundering titan), I decided to collect the fun-of's inventions and get the old band back together. In addition, smugglers copter got banned in standard and I had to listen to all my standard friends complain about it. That got the gears churning and I realized that I could play smuggler's copter in Welder MUD. It allows you to draw cards, lets you cheat in things with welder off of the discard and can be crewed by a plethora of artifact guys. My alpha build was impressive, but I was short on pilots. I wanted about two more maindeck pilots from my initial testing. It was going to be maindeck revokers, but definitely will have Ballista's somewhere in the 75. I was also greatly impressed with inventor's fair, but I don't know if my manabase can support more of 1 of the card.

[Runninonwater]

Wow...I'm glad I just happened to stop by this thread. I completely overlooked walking ballista in MUD. One would have thought I would have made the connection after being mowed down by it in standard this past weekend. Thanks for the discussion and the idea!

With all the Kaladesh inventions (and opening a sundering titan), I decided to collect the fun-of's inventions and get the old band back together. In addition, smugglers copter got banned in standard and I had to listen to all my standard friends complain about it. That got the gears churning and I realized that I could play smuggler's copter in Welder MUD. It allows you to draw cards, lets you cheat in things with welder off of the discard and can be crewed by a plethora of artifact guys. My alpha build was impressive, but I was short on pilots. I wanted about two more maindeck pilots from my initial testing. It was going to be maindeck revokers, but definitely will have Ballista's somewhere in the 75. I was also greatly impressed with inventor's fair, but I don't know if my manabase can support more of 1 of the card.

Could you make space for Msihra's Factory to Crew your Copter? It also works well with Welder.

[Airwave]

Wow...I'm glad I just happened to stop by this thread. I completely overlooked walking ballista in MUD. One would have thought I would have made the connection after being mowed down by it in standard this past weekend. Thanks for the discussion and the idea!

With all the Kaladesh inventions (and opening a sundering titan), I decided to collect the fun-of's inventions and get the old band back together. In addition, smugglers copter got banned in standard and I had to listen to all my standard friends complain about it. That got the gears churning and I realized that I could play smuggler's copter in Welder MUD. It allows you to draw cards, lets you cheat in things with welder off of the discard and can be crewed by a plethora of artifact guys. My alpha build was impressive, but I was short on pilots. I wanted about two more maindeck pilots from my initial testing. It was going to be maindeck revokers, but definitely will have Ballista's somewhere in the 75. I was also greatly impressed with inventor's fair, but I don't know if my manabase can support more of 1 of the card.

Thopter Engineer could be a thing...

or: Stoneforge Mystic

[maCHOOga]

Could you make space for Msihra's Factory to Crew your Copter? It also works well with Welder.

Interesting...I like that addition!
My manabase is currently:
2 Darksteel Citadel
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
1 Inventor's Fair

Darksteel Citadel's are to help power up my 2 Mox Opals, although they are the worst land in the deck. I think it's worth my trying factories instead of citadels. Honestly, it doesn't really even slow down the opals, because I can self animate for metal craft.

[ottomanottoman]

Interesting...I like that addition!
My manabase is currently:
2 Darksteel Citadel
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
1 Inventor's Fair

Darksteel Citadel's are to help power up my 2 Mox Opals, although they are the worst land in the deck. I think it's worth my trying factories instead of citadels. Honestly, it doesn't really even slow down the opals, because I can self animate for metal craft.

Mind posting the rest of your preliminary list? I tested out my own welder mud with ballista in it last night on cockatrice and was having a ton of fun. I'd like to see where you were at vs. where I'm at with the lists.

[maCHOOga]

Sure thing....here is where I stand right now after the last round of updates.
*~* Smuggler's MUD build 2 *~*
*Pilots*
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Goblin Welder
4 Metalworker
*Payoffs*
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Platinum Emperion
*Ramp/Utility*
4 Grim Monolith
4 Smuggler's Copter
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff Of Domination
1 Lightning Greaves
*Lands*
2 Mox Opal
4 Great Furnace
1 Inventor's Fair
2 Mishra's Factory
3 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Sundering Titan
1 Duplicant
1 Coercive Portal
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Walking Ballista
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Blood Moon
3 Farie Macabre

Right now I'm at 16 "pilots" plus the factories. I would like to add more, but then that cuts into my tutor package. Likewise, maybe smuggler's copter shouldn't be a 4-of?

[dreamborn]

Heya guys, thanks for putting some lists up.

I took this list of legend mud to my local fnm and went 4-0 with it.

Lands
2 wasteland
3 vesuva
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
1 eye of ugin

4 chalice of the void
4 trinisphere
4 grim monolith
2 voltaic key

4 lodestone golem
4 thought-knot seer
2 walking ballista
2 kozilek, the great distortion
1 ulamog the ceaseless hunger
2 emrakul, the promised end

4 karn liberated
3 ugin, the spirit dragon

Sideboard
4x relic of progenitus
2x staff of nin
3x wurmcoil engine
4x warping wail
2x phyrexian revoker

Deck was a blast to play. I'm planning to take the 2 voltaic keys out and replace them with 2 basalt monolith or warping wail.
Ensnaring bridge would have been in the SB but i didnt have any handy.


Round 1 miracles 2 -1
Game 1. They go first and cast top. I cast a chalice on one that goes uncountered followed with a trinisphere the turn after. lodestone golems take the game.

Game 2: I mull to 5 and have no chalice or sphere online early enough to matter. Jace comes out followed with entreat for game.

Game 3: early chalice, trinisphere and lodestone golem takes me to a kozilek later on for game


Round 2 Death and taxes 2-0

Game 1. early chalice and no wastelands from the opponent keeps me in the game. I use wasteland effectively to force him to stoneforge a batterskull out so I can cast and exile it with karn.
Eye grabs me an ulamog and I draw ugin off the top to wipe his board.

Game 2 : no wastelands off the opponent and he has a double aether vial opening hand. turn 2 I chalice for one. turn 3 cast wurmcoil engine, turn 4 cast kozilek. Oppone t scoops.


Round 3 painter 2-1
Game 1 : weak start on my end sees a chalice on 1 with grindstone already out. i dont draw any interaction and painter closes it.

Game 2 : turn 1 chalice turn 2 trinisphere sees me take control early. Blood moon comes out and makes the game durdle, kozilek followed by ulamog win the game.

Game 3 : chalice early and double lodestone gets me there.


Round 4 Burn 2-0
Game 1 : opponent goes first and get guide into play. nets me a free land and I chalice on 1. opponent gets me to about 5 life but im taking the game with lodestone golems.

Game 2 : chalice on turn 2 and trinisphere after keep me in the game. i get a karn out and plus it exiling cards from his hand (I shouldve been exiling my cards woops)

Opponent gets me to 3 and I ultimate karn. i go first with a mountain in play. i lead with ancient tomb into grim monolith into lodestone golem turn 1 and another one on turn 2. I win the game with the opponent stuck on one land and double golem doing work.


I didnt use key all day, I'd rather 2 warping wail be mained instead. helps our game against early Thalia's and can be a suprise counter in the early game.

I used walking ballista once and thought it was great. With the amount of mana the deck can generate it can get big pretty fast.

[Runninonwater]

Heya guys, thanks for putting some lists up.

I took this list of legend mud to my local fnm and went 4-0 with it.

Lands
2 wasteland
3 vesuva
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
1 eye of ugin

4 chalice of the void
4 trinisphere
4 grim monolith
2 voltaic key

4 lodestone golem
4 thought-knot seer
2 walking ballista
2 kozilek, the great distortion
1 ulamog the ceaseless hunger
2 emrakul, the promised end

4 karn liberated
3 ugin, the spirit dragon

Sideboard
4x relic of progenitus
2x staff of nin
3x wurmcoil engine
4x warping wail
2x phyrexian revoker



I do wonder, you don't play any Metalworkers like the other list i've seen and you didn't play any other manastones than Grims and you mentioned it produces alot of mana and fast.
And you do run 21 lands, seems low.
But otherwise you seem content except that you're cutting the Keys.

I was planning to run a similarlist but im gonna add 2 Thran Dynamos, cut 1 Voltaic Key and keep it as a 1 off maybe, add a Karakas to bounce the Eldrazi titans etc.
But great that it worked out!

[dreamborn]

I do wonder, you don't play any Metalworkers like the other list i've seen and you didn't play any other manastones than Grims and you mentioned it produces alot of mana and fast.
And you do run 21 lands, seems low.
But otherwise you seem content except that you're cutting the Keys.

I was planning to run a similarlist but im gonna add 2 Thran Dynamos, cut 1 Voltaic Key and keep it as a 1 off maybe, add a Karakas to bounce the Eldrazi titans etc.
But great that it worked out!

I dont think metalworker is in the best position right now with BUG being quite popular. And with the amount of legends and walkers in the deck I don't think he would generate what you would hope for if he does stay on the board.

I think because most of my games had disruption (chalice,sphere and golem) really early on it probably seemed to me that I was generating mana fast. Disrupt early and big threat by turn 4/5 was ideal for me.

I really dont like key in hindsight. if we're sticking chalice on 1 most of the time it's a dead card. I like basalt monolith over thran dynamo but dynamo is probably the better choice (having something out of abrupt decay reach seems good)

Karakas is a good choice for the deck. Need 2 copies myself.

Hope you have fun with your build :)

[Mosesthecoot]

Hey! I like this list. I may trend towards this direction if I ever have enough disposable income to get 1 more Ugin and 4 Karn..

I'm curious, how did the Death and Taxes matchup play out if you remember? I can't catch a break when facing that deck. I also snap- take out Chalice although, I'm not positive that is correct. Do you keep in the Spheres against them? It's going to eat me up inside until I can manage a 50/50 win ratio against this deck haha.

Thanks for the awesome report!

[BlackHawkX9]

Hey! I like this list. I may trend towards this direction if I ever have enough disposable income to get 1 more Ugin and 4 Karn..

I'm curious, how did the Death and Taxes matchup play out if you remember? I can't catch a break when facing that deck. I also snap- take out Chalice although, I'm not positive that is correct. Do you keep in the Spheres against them? It's going to eat me up inside until I can manage a 50/50 win ratio against this deck haha.

Thanks for the awesome report!

Trinispheres come out against DnT. Chalices stay in, for me at least. Chalice on 1 still stops swords to plowshares and aether vial if you are lucky. But, either way chalice is only a temporary solution due to flickerwisp being able to reset our chalice. DnT will always be a 50/50 dance based on who gets the better draws.

[dreamborn]

Trinispheres come out against DnT. Chalices stay in, for me at least. Chalice on 1 still stops swords to plowshares and aether vial if you are lucky. But, either way chalice is only a temporary solution due to flickerwisp being able to reset our chalice. DnT will always be a 50/50 dance based on who gets the better draws.

Absolutely agree with you. chalice on 1 is worth it just to protect your dudes from swords.

I think I took out trinispheres, voltaic keys (took them out on nearly all my matchups tbf) and ballistas in exchange for wurmcoils, warping wails and i think i brought in the 2 revokers.

I think 2 warping wail should be in the main. Newer thalia isnt so great for us and its utility is useful in other matches

[BlackHawkX9]

Absolutely agree with you. chalice on 1 is worth it just to protect your dudes from swords.

I think I took out trinispheres, voltaic keys (took them out on nearly all my matchups tbf) and ballistas in exchange for wurmcoils, warping wails and i think i brought in the 2 revokers.

I think 2 warping wail should be in the main. Newer thalia isnt so great for us and its utility is useful in other matches

Don't get me wrong. Warping wail is a great card, for what we want it for, but with all the non artifact additions diluting down the artifact count for metalworker and forgemaster, why even still use metalworker and forgemaster? And if we eliminate those two, don't we just become a cloudpost big eldrazi? I'm not saying that even that would be a bad thing, but that kinda changes the whole concept a bit far, into a new deck.

[Barachai]

Don't get me wrong. Warping wail is a great card, for what we want it for, but with all the non artifact additions diluting down the artifact count for metalworker and forgemaster, why even still use metalworker and forgemaster? And if we eliminate those two, don't we just become a cloudpost big eldrazi? I'm not saying that even that would be a bad thing, but that kinda changes the whole concept a bit far, into a new deck.

If you are running 4 Ancient Tomb and 2-4 Trinisphere, you are likely a mud variant. Turbo-post decks don't usually run these cards (not main at least). The above 2 cards I've found to be the definitive "You're likely a MUD deck" cards.

Mud is a fairly broad archetype; this thread encapsulates more than 3 (to my count) fairly distinct decks, and those decks can be built in very different ways; there is far more flexibility in deckbuilding than most archetypes in legacy, and this makes deckbuilding challenging... which makes MUD a lot more fun (to me) than many other archetypes :smile:.

Edit: here's a list I recently played that really pushes on the border between turbo-eldrazi and MUD:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Thespian Stage
3 Vesuva
1 Dark Depths
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
2 Maze of Ith

4 Pithing Needle
4 Expedition Map
4 Grim Monolith
3 Trinisphere

1 Ulamog, the Hungry
1 Emrakul, the Mindslaver
1 Emrakul, the Scary

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Endbringer

3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Is it MUD? Is it post? I'm not really sure, but it is fun.

[cin]

Hey bro, I've been piloting this for years now, I named it MUD Post because it was from the UG Post like build but has MUD Components. You may want to check some of my brews here:

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13389&d=278519&f=LE

*http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13645&d=280305&f=LE

*http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14091&d=283782&f=LE

This deck is really awesome, ive made lot of changes to my build everytime i join big tourneys here in my country. If you have questions feel free to ask =)



If you are running 4 Ancient Tomb and 2-4 Trinisphere, you are likely a mud variant. Turbo-post decks don't usually run these cards (not main at least). The above 2 cards I've found to be the definitive "You're likely a MUD deck" cards.

Mud is a fairly broad archetype; this thread encapsulates more than 3 (to my count) fairly distinct decks, and those decks can be built in very different ways; there is far more flexibility in deckbuilding than most archetypes in legacy, and this makes deckbuilding challenging... which makes MUD a lot more fun (to me) than many other archetypes :smile:.

Edit: here's a list I recently played that really pushes on the border between turbo-eldrazi and MUD:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Thespian Stage
3 Vesuva
1 Dark Depths
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
2 Maze of Ith

4 Pithing Needle
4 Expedition Map
4 Grim Monolith
3 Trinisphere

1 Ulamog, the Hungry
1 Emrakul, the Mindslaver
1 Emrakul, the Scary

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Endbringer

3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Is it MUD? Is it post? I'm not really sure, but it is fun.

[Barachai]

Hey bro, I've been piloting this for years now, I named it MUD Post because it was from the UG Post like build but has MUD Components. You may want to check some of my brews here:

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13389&d=278519&f=LE

*http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13645&d=280305&f=LE

*http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14091&d=283782&f=LE

This deck is really awesome, ive made lot of changes to my build everytime i join big tourneys here in my country. If you have questions feel free to ask =)

Yeah, those are the lists I built it off of. It's a really fun deck :) Unfortunately Candles and Abyss' are hard to come by :/

Out of curiosity, what (which) is your up to date build?

[cin]

Actually I do change alot. Everytime I join tourneys.

I really liked my Black MUD build because it can cast lotvs lol! And the abyss are really cool!

Here's my current Build:

[28 lands]
4 ancient tomb
4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
3 vesuva
3 thespian's stage
4 maze of ith
2 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
1 karakas
1 eye of ugin
1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale
1 dark depths

[12 creatures]
4 lodestone golem
4 thought-knot seer
2 wurmcoil engine
1 ulamog, the ceaseless hunger
1 emrakul, the aeons torn

[16 artifacts]
4 grim monolith
4 exped map
4 pithing needle
3 candelabra of tawnos
1 forcefield

[5 planeswalkers]
2 ugin, the spirit dragon
3 karn liberated

Sideboard
4 chalice
4 leyline of the void
3 trinisphere
3 all is dust
1 avarice totem


Yeah, those are the lists I built it off of. It's a really fun deck :) Unfortunately Candles and Abyss' are hard to come by :/

Out of curiosity, what (which) is your up to date build?

[caprino]

Actually I do change alot. Everytime I join tourneys.

I really liked my Black MUD build because it can cast lotvs lol! And the abyss are really cool!

Here's my current Build:

[28 lands]
4 ancient tomb
4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
3 vesuva
3 thespian's stage
4 maze of ith
2 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
1 karakas
1 eye of ugin
1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale
1 dark depths

[12 creatures]
4 lodestone golem
4 thought-knot seer
2 wurmcoil engine
1 ulamog, the ceaseless hunger
1 emrakul, the aeons torn

[16 artifacts]
4 grim monolith
4 exped map
4 pithing needle
3 candelabra of tawnos
1 forcefield

[5 planeswalkers]
2 ugin, the spirit dragon
3 karn liberated

Sideboard
4 chalice
4 leyline of the void
3 trinisphere
3 all is dust
1 avarice totem

nice list...side in and side out vs miracle,ant,bug,death and taxes,eldrazi,rug delver,elf,infect,land,sneak and show

thanks i test you list help me side in and side out

[cin]

[28 Lands]
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
3 Thespian's Stage
4 Maze of Ith
2 Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Dark Depths

[12 Creatures]
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

[16 Artifacts]
4 Grim Monolith
4 Expedition Map
4 Pithing Needle
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Forcefield

[5 Planeswalkers]
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Karn Liberated

[Sideboard]
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 All Is Dust
1 Avarice Totem

Miracles - Basically this is a good matchup, so you would'nt mind any boarding at all, But sometimes I do board in the ff:
+3 All is Dust (For Jace, Entreat the Angel's Tokens, Mentors, Blood Moons etc.)
+3 Trinisphere (Usually I brought it in when I encountered blue decks)
-3 Candelabra of Tawnos
-1 Forcefield
-1 Dark Depths
-1 Maze of Ith


ANT - This is a 70/30 matchup (70% us in favor), since you have TKS and Golem on your G1, and have Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere to back us up on the Boarding games.
+4 Leyline of the Void (Optional - if you feel like it, to remove the GY and make his PIF / Past in Flames a deadcard)
+4 Chalice of the Void
+3 Trinishpere
-4 Pithing Needle
-2 Candelabra of Tawnos
-1 Forcefield
-4 Maze of Ith

BUG - This matchup is slightly bad for us. (40/60)
+3 All is Dust
+4 Chalice of the Void (If we're playing first)
-3 Candelabra of Tawnos
-1 Dark Depths
-1 Expedition Map
-1 Karn Liberated
-1 Karakas

Death and Taxes - This is also not a good matchup I say (40/60). (Always Needle the Aether Vial if he drops it on his 1st turn)
+3 All is Dust
+4 Chalice of the Void (If we're playing first)
-3 Candelabra of Tawnos
-1 Dark Depths
-1 Karn Liberated
-1 Expedition Map
-1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Eldrazi - Bad matchup since they're really fast. That's why I made the Maze of Ith into 4 copies.
+1 Avarice Totem (Optional, can board nothing at all)
-1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

RUG Delver - Slightly good matchup.
Same as BUG boarding.

ELVES - Elves can really blew you on T2-T3 That's why we need to control the flow of its creature drops.
+3 All is Dust
+4 Chalice of the Void
+3 Trinisphere
-1 Forcefield
-3 Candelabra of Tawnos
-1 Maze of Ith
-1 Dark Depths
-2 Wurmcoil Engine
-2 Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth

INFECT - Also a Badmatchup thats why there is also 4 copies of Maze of Ith on the List
+4 Chalice of the Void
+3 Trinisphere
-2 Wurmcoil Engine
-3 Candelabra of Tawnos
-1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
-1 Dark Depths

LANDS - Surely a badmatchup for us
+4 Leyline of the Void
+4 Chalice of the Void (If playing first, for 0 or 1 and 2 for later games)
-1 Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth
-1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
-1 Dark Depths
-1 Maze of Ith
(Optional if chalice are in):
-3 Candelabra of Tawnos
-1 Karn Liberated

SNEAK & SHOW - 50/50
+4 Chalice of the Void
+3 Trinishpere
+1 Avarice Totem (for funky plays only)
-3 Candelabra of Tawnos
-2 Wurmcoil Engine
-1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth,
-1 Forcefield
-1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale



nice list...side in and side out vs miracle,ant,bug,death and taxes,eldrazi,rug delver,elf,infect,land,sneak and show

thanks i test you list help me side in and side out

[maCHOOga]

Played my smuggler's mud brew to a 5-3 finish today. My losses on the day was against bug delver, enchantress and burn.

Round 1 was delver. Game 3 was a double wasteland into a fatal push on a smuggler's copter. What is this standard?!
Round 4 was enchantress. I was under a solitary confinement lock and was at 5 trillion life. Lol. Unfortunately, I didn't have a way to win: spine of ish sha targets, infect is still damage and steel hellkite still has to do damage to get the destroy effect. My SB didn't have much either...I didn't come equipped with ratchet bombs or all us dust. Doh!
Round 6? Was against burn. I was able to race game 2 being on the play. Game three I was set up for a turn 2 wurmcoil engine, but my opponents turn 2 was smash to smithreens my monolith... burn just feels like an unwinnable mAtchup.

Highlights: sundering titan miracles into oblivion and beating merfolk with copter on a mulligan to five. I also played 3 mishra's factories and as of today I realized, 4 is the correct number. I'm contemplating going down to 3 wastelands...is that just crazy talk.

It was great...whenever any of my local friends asked, what are you playing? When I answered Smuggler's copter, the looks I got were astounding. Most fun I've had at a magic tournament in a long time! Copter because of it. I almost played two walking ballistas SB and was definitely a good inclusion!

[BlackHawkX9]

Played my smuggler's mud brew to a 5-3 finish today. My losses on the day was against bug delver, enchantress and burn.

Round 1 was delver. Game 3 was a double wasteland into a fatal push on a smuggler's copter. What is this standard?!
Round 4 was enchantress. I was under a solitary confinement lock and was at 5 trillion life. Lol. Unfortunately, I didn't have a way to win: spine of ish sha targets, infect is still damage and steel hellkite still has to do damage to get the destroy effect. My SB didn't have much either...I didn't come equipped with ratchet bombs or all us dust. Doh!
Round 6? Was against burn. I was able to race game 2 being on the play. Game three I was set up for a turn 2 wurmcoil engine, but my opponents turn 2 was smash to smithreens my monolith... burn just feels like an unwinnable mAtchup.

Highlights: sundering titan miracles into oblivion and beating merfolk with copter on a mulligan to five. I also played 3 mishra's factories and as of today I realized, 4 is the correct number. I'm contemplating going down to 3 wastelands...is that just crazy talk.

It was great...whenever any of my local friends asked, what are you playing? When I asked Smuggler's copter, the looks I got were astounding. Most fun I've had at a magic tournament in a long time! Copter because of it. I almost played two walking ballistas SB and was definitely a good inclusion!

Imo, ugin is hands down better than all is dust, for 95% of the situations you'll see at a tournament, and it's a win condition, with a reusable wipe. As far as wastelands, some people have cut them down to 2, or even cut them completely. I feel like 3 is a fine number.

A buddy of mine plays burn regularly, so I've played that match a bunch. Usually the line is trinisphere, chalice on 1 and/or chalice on 2 gets you there. You wanna be the control deck against burn. If you have any number of chalices, trinisphere, lodestone, thorn of amethyst, etc and a platinum under greaves, you end up with too many targets to smash. Also, ugin becomes a win condition there too, because you lock them out and who cares if you slowly bolt them to death. Plus, ugin kills sulfuric vortex if they run it, and kills over e-bridge if they run it.

I'm really liking all these scenarios with walking ballistas. Gives us early interactions with dudes that we usually don't have.

[Mosesthecoot]

I don't understand taking out Ballista against DnT.. isn't it exactly what we want against white weenies? I included them in my list specifically for DnT haha. I'm debating dropping the Wails main and putting the Bombs in their place. I hate drawing wails when I have a metalworker that I COULD power something out with but I'm short 2 Mana. So tilting 😑

A lot of awesome ideas here. Forcefield is insane haha. I forgot that was an option. Might be worth a fun-slot??

[Theonlyone]

Hello, since a player in my area plays constantly metalworker( prison with grim monolith, chalice, trinisphere lodestone golem, wurmcoil/ sundering titan...) and wins every time against me while I play blue decks because of fast combo decks wich are also played in here.
I'd like some advice to win against his deck. I usually play delver, I can play any delver deck/miracles/ shardless with the cards I own and didn't find the right deck to beat MUD decks.
How to play/ what to usually play that beats the deck?
Thanks.

[Barachai]

Hello, since a player in my area plays constantly metalworker( prison with grim monolith, chalice, trinisphere lodestone golem, wurmcoil/ sundering titan...) and wins every time against me while I play blue decks because of fast combo decks wich are also played in here.
I'd like some advice to win against his deck. I usually play delver, I can play any delver deck/miracles/ shardless with the cards I own and didn't find the right deck to beat MUD decks.
How to play/ what to usually play that beats the deck?
Thanks.

Wasteland and Abrupt decay can go a long ways to keeping them from taking off. Combined with discard this can be quite potent, as mud can be pretty clunky with topdecks if kept off its mana. Tarmogoyf can also go a long way in the matchup, again if you can keep MUD closer to the ground. I'd play BUG delver/team america if I had to be in blue. All that being said, the reason you play MUD is to take a dump on blue; aggro loam, taxes, maverick, jund can do pretty well vs MUD, partly because they play more than 20 lands (goes a long way vs 3ball).

Null Rod is not a bad call, especially if there's also storm in the meta.

[maCHOOga]

Hello, since a player in my area plays constantly metalworker( prison with grim monolith, chalice, trinisphere lodestone golem, wurmcoil/ sundering titan...) and wins every time against me while I play blue decks because of fast combo decks wich are also played in here.
I'd like some advice to win against his deck. I usually play delver, I can play any delver deck/miracles/ shardless with the cards I own and didn't find the right deck to beat MUD decks.
How to play/ what to usually play that beats the deck?
Thanks.

My Opinions:
-MUD is favored vs. Miracles. The CMC is very distributed making counterbalance useless. Jace TMS or a miracle entreat is the best way to win if your in control or a miracle entreat.
-Delver is favored vs. MUD. Don't let chalice resolve, flip FoW to a Delver and aggressively wasteland ancient tombs/cities. Discard is good as well.
-Shardless feels 50/50. Chalice is bad against shardless due to the diversity of mana costs. MUD is bad at playing from behind, so you want to attack their hand

[Stuart]

@Theonlyone: if you're playing Miracles and want to beat MUD, play Back To Basics or From The Ashes. If you've kept them off Metalworker, they should lose after that.

#

Different question: how's Walking Ballista working out for everyone so far? I really want it to be good, but it hasn't done shit for me. If I go a few more weeklies without it living up to its potential, I'll go back to TKS.

[Purple Blood]

Here's a list I'm brewing...what do you guys think? Its a Blue take on Mud that has some pretty cool lines of play that can blow out the opponent with a well timed Upheaval. Third turn Upheaval into Trinisphere/Chalice is a common line of play. Another neat trick is Tiding your own lands and then casting Upheaval which gives a ridiculous advantage. Tide can also create a near-hard lock with Trinisphere post-Upheaval. If I can resolve a third or fourth turn Upheaval its usually a scoop right after.

One thought I had was actually moving away from Chalice and testing out cards like Divining Top, Brainstorm (using the inferior Impulse right now due to Chalice), and Voltaic Key along with more fetch lands. Another possibility is using Scroll Rack for filtering (which plays more nicely with Chalice than SDT) but I don't have access to that card and would rather not drop $100 to experiment. I also want to test Lightning Greaves because a hasty Metal Worker after an Upheaval with 10+ cards in your hand is just nasty.

//Lands//
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Saprazzan Skerry
4 Polluted Delta
8 Island

//Creatures//
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metal Worker

//Artifacts//
4 Grim Monolith
2 Thran Dynamo
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void

//Planeswalkers//
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Karn Liberated

//Enchantments//
3 Parallax Tide

//Sorceries//
3 Upheaval

//Instants//
4 Impulse

[Sideboard]
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 All Is Dust
1 Avarice Totem

[maCHOOga]

Different question: how's Walking Ballista working out for everyone so far? I really want it to be good, but it hasn't done shit for me. If I go a few more weeklies without it living up to its potential, I'll go back to TKS.

I played in the Quest for Power this week and the card is A++ against infect. I hit a point where I was just dumping metalworker mana into it to grow it. You do have to be cautious of krosan grip when playing it though.

I did actually lose a game because I got greedy with ballista against elves. They fetched turn 1 into a dryad arbor. I could have taken my 2nd turn to just deploy ballista to sinkhole them. I decided that I wanted to hold out and make it a 2/2. My opponent went fetchland pass, EOT dryad arbor #2. Untap, cradle natural order get progenitus.

[Stuart]

@PurpleBlood: sweet brew! I'm too much of a colorless junkie to try it myself, but I do love the idea of MUD with either Top or Rack. It's possible that's the correct direction to move in to solve our consistency issues. Rack is worse but dodges Chalice; alternatively, you could swap Chalice for Thorn to play Top, and then get access to shit like Needle and Expedition Map. Also, maybe try out Thirst for Knowledge? Either way, keep us posted on it.

@Machooga: Yeah, Ballista seems like a house against Infect, DnT, and Elves. However, it feels so bad against midrange and combo that it's officially moved into my sideboard. In a deck likes this there isn't room to run anything in the main that can be a dead draw in some matches. (I understand it's not literally a dead draw, but it sure feels bad playing one vs an X/2.)

[Mosesthecoot]

Different question: how's Walking Ballista working out for everyone so far? I really want it to be good, but it hasn't done shit for me. If I go a few more weeklies without it living up to its potential, I'll go back to TKS.

I also took out most of my Ballistas. I left one in to combo-kill with Staff and Metalworker (which I succeeded in doing on Thursday and it was sweeeet). I actually replaced them with maindeck Revokers and they worked much better than I thought they would! It helped against quite a lot including my 2-0 against D+T and 2-0 against BUG Delver. It would've been hilarious to drop with a Show and Tell but it didn't come up (I also beat SnT in 3).

I have all my tempo-critter removal in the sideboard now. 4 Wail and 1 Spatial Contortion. Depending on the MU, I take out Trinisphere, Portal, extra wurmcoil..

Things I learned this past week;
- BUG's out to your Blightsteel are next to nothing. Baleful Strix can't kill it 😆
- keep your threats versatile so they can't target one game plan
- Portal is still amazing in the main. I had it in the board for the Walkers but out-drawing your
Opponent is ALWAYS good (the exception being Leovold)

[Stuart]

You know, it's been forever since I thought about Revoker. Good call, Moses - I might have to give them another try.

[Mosesthecoot]

You know, it's been forever since I thought about Revoker. Good call, Moses - I might have to give them another try.



Turn 1: Deathrite
Turn 1: Revoker - nice 1/2 over there, buddy

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Equally good in that same scenario is naming top against Miracles, then they tap, draw a card and you can chalice if they opt to not replay it. Also, DnT is extremely popular and naming vial makes them play fair magic, running their creatures in as creatures instead of instants, making your Chalices decent for a while (until Flickerwisps start appearing).

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

[Mosesthecoot]

Equally good in that same scenario is naming top against Miracles, then they tap, draw a card and you can chalice if they opt to not replay it. Also, DnT is extremely popular and naming vial makes them play fair magic, running their creatures in as creatures instead of instants, making your Chalices decent for a while (until Flickerwisps start appearing).

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Exactly. Just another turn 1 lockpiece to join Chalice. Glad you seem to be on board! Let me know how it works out.

[Stuart]

Alright, you guys sold me. It's SXSW this week and I'm gonna be in Los Angeles for a couple days afterwards, but I'll try out Revoker at my next weekly.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Exactly. Just another turn 1 lockpiece to join Chalice. Glad you seem to be on board! Let me know how it works out.
I'm not. I'm on DnT, which is one reason I agree, but it doesn't mean it's not solid. I'm for advancing the development of strong legacy decks. Good luck, they are strong in fair metas such as these.

[Runninonwater]

Hello everybody!

i was wondering, what type of gravehate would you recommend to play?

Faerie Macabre makes it so you're able to remove the creature from reanimator decks without playing the card, basicly uncounterable and when you're on the play.

Tormod's Crypt works wonders with Metalworker and costs 0.

Reason I mention these are because they work with a chalice out on 1.


And comments on my deck would be awesome! This is the list im gonna run so far:

Creature (20)
1x Blightsteel Colossus
3x Kuldotha Forgemaster
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Metalworker
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Platinum Emperion
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Sundering Titan
1x Thought-Knot Seer
1x Walking Ballista
2x Wurmcoil Engine

Artifact (15)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Grim Monolith
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Staff of Domination
1x Staff of Nin
3x Trinisphere

Land (23)
4x Ancient Tomb
2x Cavern of Souls
4x City of Traitors
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
2x Vesuva
3x Wasteland

Planeswalker (2)
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Sideboard (15)
1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Faerie Macabre
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Ratchet Bomb
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Trinisphere
2x Walking Ballista
2x Warping Wail



EDIT: I've been thinking of playing Coercive Portal over the Thought-knot Seer, what do you all think?

EIDT 2: And should i play Platinum Angel or Platinum Emperion? They sort of fill the same spot but they do have their own pros and cons.

[Mosesthecoot]

EDIT: I've been thinking of playing Coercive Portal over the Thought-knot Seer, what do you all think?

EIDT 2: And should i play Platinum Angel or Platinum Emperion? They sort of fill the same spot but they do have their own pros and cons.

Hey! Nice list. I run almost the same exact 75. I cut the Emperion, Hellkite, Spine and Nin to make room for Portal and extra Revokers. I found myself never searching up the Emperion because if I had a target, it was to win the game rather than to stabilize. Emperion dies to removal where at least Blightsteel and Sundering Titan either put your opponent on a 2 turn clock or destroy their manabase.

I have room for 2 TKS as well as 2 Portal. I took out the Portals for awhile but missed them immediately. They're pretty much must-counter spells against blue decks in general, but Miraclea hates to let them resolve. In this scenario, you're either out-drawing then, or you're clearing their counters for your win conditions.

As for the Angel versus Emperion question, I chose Emperion for its clock, mostly. He also works well with Ancient Tomb. You are also living dangerously with an Angel because your life total is still diminishing. They can just Disenchant the Angel whenever they find that the coast is clear. Emperion stops the clock, so to speak, which allows you to sculpt your plays.

Hope this helps!

[Silverflame]

Hey! Nice list. I run almost the same exact 75. I cut the Emperion, Hellkite, Spine and Nin to make room for Portal and extra Revokers. I found myself never searching up the Emperion because if I had a target, it was to win the game rather than to stabilize. Emperion dies to removal where at least Blightsteel and Sundering Titan either put your opponent on a 2 turn clock or destroy their manabase.

I have room for 2 TKS as well as 2 Portal. I took out the Portals for awhile but missed them immediately. They're pretty much must-counter spells against blue decks in general, but Miraclea hates to let them resolve. In this scenario, you're either out-drawing then, or you're clearing their counters for your win conditions.

As for the Angel versus Emperion question, I chose Emperion for its clock, mostly. He also works well with Ancient Tomb. You are also living dangerously with an Angel because your life total is still diminishing. They can just Disenchant the Angel whenever they find that the coast is clear. Emperion stops the clock, so to speak, which allows you to sculpt your plays.

Hope this helps!

I disagree on cutting hellkite. It's a beast against tnn decks.
Portals are awesome but I couldn't find room for them, so I switched 2 lands for inventor's fair. It's not as game changing as kuldotha if you have no greaves, but it's less restrictive and can be used for surprise kills with metalworker. The added value against burn is small, but is there too.

[Stuart]

I wanted to test Thran Dynamo, so I played this yesterday:

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone
3 Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoi
1 Emperion
2 Sundering Titan
2 Ugin

4 Monolith
2 Thran Dynamo
4 Chalice
3 Trinisphere
2 Greaves
1 Staff
1 Spine

3 Wasteland
4 Tomb
4 City
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
2 Cavern
1 Inventors' Fair

1 Platinum Angel
1 Contagion Engine
2 Walking Ballista
2 Portal
2 Crucible
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Needle
3 Faerie Macabre

Went 3-1, losing to Shardless and beating BUG True Name Landstill, Maverick, and Sneak Show. Dynamo was nice when it showed up, but as a 2-of in a 4-round event, I think I only drew it 2 or 3 times. When I did, the ramp felt strong. I think the 2nd Sundering Titan will become a 3rd Ugin, as I sorely wanted to draw him in all 3 fair matchups and he only showed up once. Might also tweak the board to have slightly more combo hate, so I found I didn't have much to bring in vs Sneak Show.

[Mosesthecoot]

Hey Stuart, can I ask your sideboarding strategies? Specifically, when do you bring in Crucible and the Angel? I've gone away from Ballista for now and I'm using 4 slots for Wail and Contortion. I think I may have to go another direction with my deck as I did horrible last week. I faced Nic Fit(junk), BUG w/o shardless, miracles and burn. I feel like I must have sequences wrong thought the night since I should have zero issues with Miracles and I couldn't draw enough hate fast enough for Nic Fit.

[Stuart]

Cheers Moses. Some thoughts:
- Angel and Crucible are primarily in there for Lands (though they have applications against combo and DnT, respectively). I think with the right tools, Lands is a 50:50 or better matchup, but you need to have useful things against them. Angel is an additional out to Marit Lage, which is the scariest part of that match (we can still play against Waste/Port locks thanks to Metalworker, Monolith, etc). Crucible's uses are obvious. I'm also bringing in Portal and Needle, FWIW.
- You might be right to cut Ballista. I had it in the main for a minute, but it wasn't doing much. I moved it to the board for further testing vs DnT, Elves, and Delver, but the verdict's still out as I haven't seen much of those lately. Warping Wail might be better; I just don't like playing cards the require us to leave mana up. That said, being able to counter stuff like Terminus, From the Ashes, Hymn, etc seems good.
- Honestly, both your meta and the meta overall don't sound very ripe for MUD. In an ideal world we'd see lots of 1 CMC decks, but the world has moved on to midrange. Likewise, I've been saying for a while that Miracles is no longer the auto-win it used to be. Eldrazi forced Miracles pilots to adapt, and now they're pretty great at forcing your Chalice, answering 1-2 threats, and making a crippling play with Back to Basics or From the Ashes. As for Nic Fit, I think that's pretty play/draw dependent; turn 1 Chalice on the play is a huge tempo swing, but we're in trouble if they ramp into 4 lands on turn 2.

[Claymore1]

I do not play MUD, so I do not know if my opinion matters here, I am mainly enchantress player. My friend, however, plays MUD all the time, and one thing I saw in action was him grabbing Platinum Emperion dude versus Aluren and sitting back with it. So long as he does not attack with it, he cannot run it into a Baleful Strix, and it's too big for Aluren to Abrupt Decay and the Aluren guy couln't combo kill him. I thought it was funny. :laugh:

[L10]

I prefer Emperion vs Lands over Angel because he shuts Punishing Grove off completely. Platinum Angel is way easier to kill w/o Greaves. I'd play both if I could though.

[Stuart]

I prefer Emperion vs Lands over Angel because he shuts Punishing Grove off completely. Platinum Angel is way easier to kill w/o Greaves. I'd play both if I could though.

I play both :laugh:. You're right that Emperion's better vs Lands, but I like having both available post-board.

[BlackHawkX9]

I prefer Emperion vs Lands over Angel because he shuts Punishing Grove off completely. Platinum Angel is way easier to kill w/o Greaves. I'd play both if I could though.

I agree. The only time I ever want angel over emperion, is vs infect or painter grind stone. Every other scenario makes me want emperion.

[Mosesthecoot]

Let me ask you guys this: When do you churn out Emperion? I usually had the choice when I was Forging but I never wanted it in that situation. Do you slam him asap or do you wait until you truly need the effect?

[Stuart]

Let me ask you guys this: When do you churn out Emperion? I usually had the choice when I was Forging but I never wanted it in that situation. Do you slam him asap or do you wait until you truly need the effect?

That's pretty situational. In game 1, I'm usually in favor of slamming him ASAP; most Legacy decks don't have good game 1 outs to Emperion. That said, if they might have access to StP, I'll wait until I have a Chalice or Greaves to protect him. Games 2 and 3 I'm always much more conservative (unless again I don't think they have good outs to him), and wait until I absolutely need him or I can protect him.

One caveat is combo. If I'm trying to close out a game quickly, I'll frequently want Emperion as he's my biggest attacker (unless it's a situation in which Titan's land destruction is gonna do a lot of work), regardless of how protected he is.

The other caveat is Wurmcoil. If I have a Wurmcoil active, obviously I'll wait to fetch Emperion and am usually better served with Titan, Spine, etc.

[Noctalor]

Got a top16 (5/2) in a 100ish ppl tournament with this list

// 60 Maindeck
// 31 Artifact
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Trinisphere
4 Ratchet Bomb
1 Ghirapur Orrery
3 Bottled Cloister
1 Trading Post

// 4 Creature
4 Metalworker

// 25 Land
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Buried Ruin
4 City of Traitors
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
1 Drownyard Temple
2 Inventors' Fair


// 15 Sideboard
// 11 Artifact
SB: 2 Uba Mask
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Caltrops
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Coercive Portal

// 4 Creature
SB: 4 Lodestone Golem


I lost to a burn which got insanely lucky (won g2 despite my chalice on 1 drawing no 1 drop the entire game and won g3 topdecking exquisite firecraft and 2 fireblasts while I had chalice on 1 and 2 and was racing with a golem) and grixis delver drawing 4 lands in 2 games and mulling pretty hard.

I smashed 2 miracles easily (it is almost a bye for this list), had the pleasure to win turn 1 against a sneak, won against eldrazis and lasty won against BR reanimator.

The list feels good, I swapped a ghost quarter for the third inventors' fair which is absolutely insane, was wondering if a copy of a card able to give us shroud could be helpful (Orbs of Warding or Witchbane Orb, still unsure if having protection from elementals is worth 1 mana).
I was also unsure if tormod's are better than faerie macabre or leyline, the tormod's were enought to beat the reanimator I faced, but I'm still not 100% sure.

[Jakobian1010]

Got a top16 (5/2) in a 100ish ppl tournament with this list

// 60 Maindeck
// 31 Artifact
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Trinisphere
4 Ratchet Bomb
1 Ghirapur Orrery
3 Bottled Cloister
1 Trading Post

// 4 Creature
4 Metalworker

// 25 Land
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Buried Ruin
4 City of Traitors
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
1 Drownyard Temple
2 Inventors' Fair


// 15 Sideboard
// 11 Artifact
SB: 2 Uba Mask
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Caltrops
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Coercive Portal

// 4 Creature
SB: 4 Lodestone Golem


I lost to a burn which got insanely lucky (won g2 despite my chalice on 1 drawing no 1 drop the entire game and won g3 topdecking exquisite firecraft and 2 fireblasts while I had chalice on 1 and 2 and was racing with a golem) and grixis delver drawing 4 lands in 2 games and mulling pretty hard.

I smashed 2 miracles easily (it is almost a bye for this list), had the pleasure to win turn 1 against a sneak, won against eldrazis and lasty won against BR reanimator.

The list feels good, I swapped a ghost quarter for the third inventors' fair which is absolutely insane, was wondering if a copy of a card able to give us shroud could be helpful (Orbs of Warding or Witchbane Orb, still unsure if having protection from elementals is worth 1 mana).
I was also unsure if tormod's are better than faerie macabre or leyline, the tormod's were enought to beat the reanimator I faced, but I'm still not 100% sure.

Coming from playing the "normal" 12-post list of MUD, and having tried this build a little bit as well, I can attest that your sideboard shouldn't need any more than maybe 2 tormod's crypts vs Reanimator. Trinisphere and Chalice of the void are so good against them, and in this build Ensnaring Bridge also does wonders. MUD has a pretty good game 1 vs graveyard based decks (except the ones that recur wastelands, ouch!) so it doesn't need a lot of sideboard hate dedicated to making the matchup better than it already is.

[Jakobian1010]

Let me ask you guys this: When do you churn out Emperion? I usually had the choice when I was Forging but I never wanted it in that situation. Do you slam him asap or do you wait until you truly need the effect?

The best "mantra" I can recommend for MUD regarding kuldotha forgemaster is this: "Is the card I'm getting guaranteeing me to win the game?" If the answer is no, you usually shouldn't be activating forgemaster. There's a great deal of value in having patience and knowing when the right time to get certain cards is. I usually only grab platinum emperion/angel when I have a bad board state and need to not die, vs grabbing something like blightsteel colossus when I know I can kill my opponent on the spot. It's a super great tool to have, but you don't need to get it every single game. It's often not the correct tool for the current situation.

[Runninonwater]

I kinda rediscovered Powder Keg and ordered a couple of them.
They can help in elves/affinity/Tezzeret control matchups and it works against TNN as well.
It can destroys artifact lands, Inkmoth Nexus, Mox Diamonds/Opals, Chrome Moxes, Vial and more.

Because i don't know about Ballista, i like the card and if i have 3 in total (1 in main), its easier to needle/revoker it if i play multiples of them.

I have Ballista Against decks with tiny creatures but Powder keg does the same thing, except it cannot really be activated for 1 counter the moment in hits the field, Ballista
can atleast pick of a few creatures if you topdeck it later.

[Mosesthecoot]

I kinda rediscovered Powder Keg and ordered a couple of them.
They can help in elves/affinity/Tezzeret control matchups and it works against TNN as well.
It can destroys artifact lands, Inkmoth Nexus, Mox Diamonds/Opals, Chrome Moxes, Vial and more.

Because i don't know about Ballista, i like the card and if i have 3 in total (1 in main), its easier to needle/revoker it if i play multiples of them.

I have Ballista Against decks with tiny creatures but Powder keg does the same thing, except it cannot really be activated for 1 counter the moment in hits the field, Ballista
can atleast pick of a few creatures if you topdeck it later.

How come Keg over Ratchet Bomb?

[Runninonwater]

How come Keg over Ratchet Bomb?

It does seem to take care of most things that are problematic for us. Strong cheap artifacts and creatures.

But it does suck against enchantress...

I don't know, i would love to have atleast one in the sideboard, feels like it can be great if you play like, 1 Ratchet Bomb and 1 Powder Keg to mix them up. Helps against Revokers and needles as well.

[Mosesthecoot]

It does seem to take care of most things that are problematic for us. Strong cheap artifacts and creatures.

But it does suck against enchantress...

I don't know, i would love to have atleast one in the sideboard, feels like it can be great if you play like, 1 Ratchet Bomb and 1 Powder Keg to mix them up. Helps against Revokers and needles as well.

Do you still see enchantress? Haha. Around here, I haven't seen it in about 5 years 😳 I was thinking counterbalance, planeswalker. I don't know, just wondering your preference. I do like that it diversifies our needle targets.

[Barachai]

Do you still see enchantress? Haha. Around here, I haven't seen it in about 5 years 😳 I was thinking counterbalance, planeswalker. I don't know, just wondering your preference. I do like that it diversifies our needle targets.

As there is a regular infect player in my local meta, I can definitively say that Keg does accomplish some life-saving tasks that the Bomb cannot accomplish :smile:

[Mosesthecoot]

As there is a regular infect player in my local meta, I can definitively say that Keg does accomplish some life-saving tasks that the Bomb cannot accomplish :smile:

Like what? I'm totally missing this and I apologize haha.. they both can come down turn one and be blown for 1 on turn 2...

[Sisyphos]

Like what? I'm totally missing this and I apologize haha.. they both can come down turn one and be blown for 1 on turn 2...

Keg kills Inkmoth. Ratchet Bomb can only kill nonlands.

[BlackHawkX9]

Keg kills Inkmoth. Ratchet Bomb can only kill nonlands.

Pithing needle,spatial contortion, warping wail, and wastelands shut down inkmoth too. Not much need to add keg as a super narrow targeted sideboard card.

[Sisyphos]

Pithing needle,spatial contortion, warping wail, and wastelands shut down inkmoth too. Not much need to add keg as a super narrow targeted sideboard card.

Wasn't arguing that Keg is needed in place of Rachet Bomb. Was just answering Mosesthecoot's question what Powder Keg can accomplish that Ratchet Bomb can't.

[Mosesthecoot]

Wasn't arguing that Keg is needed in place of Rachet Bomb. Was just answering Mosesthecoot's question what Powder Keg can accomplish that Ratchet Bomb can't.

Ahh, spaced on the Inkmoth. Thanks.

[Mosesthecoot]

* 4x Lodestone Golem
* 3x Wurmcoil Engine
* 1x Blightsteel Colossus
* 1x Walking Ballista
* 1x Platinum Emperion
* 1x Sundering Titan
* 4x Metalworker
* 3x Kuldotha Forgemaster
(18)

* 2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
(2)

* 4x Chalice of the Void
* 4x Grim Monolith
* 3x Trinisphere
* 1x Staff of Domination
* 2x Lightning Greaves
* 2x Thran Dynamo
(16)

* 3x Wasteland
* 2x Cavern of Souls
* 4x Cloudpost
* 4x Glimmerpost
* 4x Ancient Tomb
* 4x City of Traitors
* 2x Vesuva
* 1x Inventors' Fair
(24) 60 cards

Sideboard

* 3x Warping Wail
* 2x Spatial Contortion
* 2x Pithing Needle
* 1x Staff of Nin
* 1x Steel Hellkite
* 1x Ratchet Bomb
* 1x Spine of Ish Sah
* 1x Duplicant
* 1x Ensnaring Bridge
* 2x Coercive Portal


This is the list I will be piloting at SCG Worcester tomorrow. The sideboard is built in a way to expect a lot of BUG and Grixis fair decks, Death and Taxes, Miracles and OmniShow. I feel like I need SOMETHING to combat all the little buggers running around so, that's what all the 1 for 1 removal is about. Keep me alive until I can land an Ugin, I suppose. The last edition to the board was Steel Hellkite to attempt to defeat True-Name. It even rids the board of Leovold without targeting him.

I don't know! I feel like this is the best that I can put together. Hopefully, it'll get me over 500. I'll count that as a win for the day. We will see how it goes. I've been planning for this tournament for months. Wish me luck!

[Stuart]

List looks great! Dynamo is a great addition. I'd personally swap the Blightsteel and Spine, but that's a matter of taste.

Good luck at Worcester! If I still lived in Boston I'd be there.

[forestfold]

This is the list I will be piloting at SCG Worcester tomorrow. The sideboard is built in a way to expect a lot of BUG and Grixis fair decks, Death and Taxes, Miracles and OmniShow. I feel like I need SOMETHING to combat all the little buggers running around so, that's what all the 1 for 1 removal is about. Keep me alive until I can land an Ugin, I suppose. The last edition to the board was Steel Hellkite to attempt to defeat True-Name. It even rids the board of Leovold without targeting him.

I don't know! I feel like this is the best that I can put together. Hopefully, it'll get me over 500. I'll count that as a win for the day. We will see how it goes. I've been planning for this tournament for months. Wish me luck!

I ended up batting crap, but I only ran into half of the meta I expected. (the MUD guy you sat next to early in the day) I played a lot of BUG/BUGW delver/midrange/whatever with Leovold, which I generally found to be 50/50 depending on who drew better. I drew a lot of lands on the day, and I am probably going to cut a land after this weekend. I tried a Coercive Portal in the main because I expected a fair amount of Miracles but only played it once. I had a Ballista main and a second in the side for Death & Taxes but didn't face it once. It was fine as a scale-able threat though, and I won a game just casting both uncounterable Ballistas for 4 counters and 6 counters (thank you Cloudpost). Lost to an insane BUG Aluren draw, and then a 9 land 4 spell game that metalworker was a 1/2 in... sigh. Also face a U/R prowess, an Eldrazi player, and a Sneak and Show. I played all 9 rounds because I don't get to play legacy (or Magic) much these days, and while I got beat around with sticks I still had a good time.

How did you end up? Hopefully you are battling in day 2 right now, but either way let's hear it when you have some time!

[forestfold]

For reference, this is what I played yesterday ::

4 Metalworker (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Metalworker)
4 Lodestone Golem (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Lodestone%20Golem)
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Lodestone%20Golem)
2 Wurmcoil Engine (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Wurmcoil%20Engine)
1 Walking Ballista (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Walking%20Ballista)
1 Steel Hellkite (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Steel%20Hellkite)
1 Platinum Emperion (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Platinum%20Emperion)
1 Sundering Titan (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Sundering%20Titan)
1 Blightsteel Colossus (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Blightsteel%20Colossus)

4 Chalice of the Void (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Chalice%20of%20the%20Void)
1 Voltaic Key (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Voltaic%20Key)
4 Grim Monolith (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Grim%20Monolith)
1 Lightning Greaves (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Lightning%20Greaves)
3 Trinisphere (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Trinisphere)
1 Staff of Domination (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Staff%20of%20Domination)
1 Coercive Portal (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Coercive%20Portal)
1 Staff of Nin (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Staff%20of%20Nin)
1 Spine of Ish Sah (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Spine%20of%20Ish%20Sah)

2 Cavern of Souls (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Cavern%20of%20Souls)
4 Cloudpost (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Cloudpost)
4 Glimmerpost (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Glimmerpost)
4 Ancient Tomb (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Ancient%20Tomb)
4 City of Traitors (http://deckbox.org/mtg/City%20of%20Traitors)
3 Vesuva (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Vesuva)
2 Wasteland (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Wasteland)
1 Inventors' Fair (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Inventors'%20Fair)

SB ::
:: 1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Ugin,%20the%20Spirit%20Dragon)
:: 1 Walking Ballista (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Walking%20Ballista)
:: 1 Contagion Engine (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Contagion%20Engine)
:: 1 Duplicant (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Duplicant)
:: 1 Witchbane Orb (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Witchbane%20Orb)
:: 1 Trading Post (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Trading%20Post)
:: 1 Crucible of Worlds (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Crucible%20of%20Worlds)
:: 2 Ensnaring Bridge (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Ensnaring%20Bridge)
:: 2 Thorn of Amethyst (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Thorn%20of%20Amethyst)
:: 1 Phyrexian Revoker (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Phyrexian%20Revoker)
:: 1 Pithing Needle (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Pithing%20Needle)
:: 2 Warping Wail (http://deckbox.org/mtg/Warping%20Wail)

Cloudpost can be very awkward, but the ridiculous power it has when there is no wasteland or other land destruction/disruption is just obscene. Inventors' Fair was great, fetching multiple things and netting me around 30 life through out the day. Ballista was also great, letting me kill someone 2 turns faster by removing a blocker on a turn when they had attacked me with others and felt "safe", and killing someone I couldn't really afford to attack. This is where Cloudpost was rocking for me, as I had two cloudposts and a vesuva-post plus a glimmerpost out, so that is three counters a turn if I had no other use for mana. Coercive Portal was only played 3 times and once it was immediately sacrificed, so that was ho-hum. I sided it out against any Leovold deck because they seem to always have one out. Ballista was also very awkward against him, but I didn't feel like I could side it out in that match up because it could get around a TTN. I didn't cast warping wail all day but did side it in several times, just didn't see it. Ensnaring Bridge also continues to be an all-star, and I can't imagine not having it to fall back on. The second bridge has also completely wrecked a few people in local tournaments, and it makes Marit Lage tokens a rather large investment for nothing. I usually get Emperion before bridge in that MU because he stops Punishing Fire as well, but it is good to have a life-saving backup. Obviously they all die to Krosan Grip, but not much we can do about that except for Chalice on 3. I have thought about using Jester's Cap at some point to pick out problem cards, but have never pulled the trigger.

>>>
Also of note, I have not played MUD in months as I am working 3rd shift now, and basically can never make a weekly tournament because of my stupid schedule (imagine the expletives, so I don't break any rules). I did a little meta research over the last 3 days in preparation to make my slight changes from GP Columbus and the 2 or 3 local tournaments I played in last summer which is always kind of a crap shoot because people play what is available, which is often one or two decks. I also left work at 6am to take an hour nap, shower, and make it to the tournament. I wasn't exactly making the best decisions, but as I said, I had a lot of fun anyway.

[Runninonwater]

[---] but as I said, I had a lot of fun anyway.

And that's what important :) Especially when you often times barerly get to play any magic.

However, i was suprised you didn't play atleast 1 Ugin mainboard. Its quite the reset button against many decks.

[forestfold]

And that's what important :) Especially when you often times barerly get to play any magic.

However, i was suprised you didn't play atleast 1 Ugin mainboard. Its quite the reset button against many decks.

He would have been the coercive portal probably. I expected to see a lot more eldrazi kicking around (even though I know the northeast has a real problem putting down their blue cards) and​ he is real depressing in that match up. I know a lot of people have​ cut Staff of Nin, but it has always been an all star for me and I couldn't bring myself to do it. After Saturday tho it might be time to put it away for a while, Leovold makes it pretty depressing as he makes both halves of the card useless.

[Mosesthecoot]

How did you end up? Hopefully you are battling in day 2 right now, but either way let's hear it when you have some time!

Hey! Sorry for the late reply but I was pretty beat up that day. I NEVER leave tournaments early and I really had to to save some sanity, unfortunately. It was also because my friend came with me to draft and didn't sign up for the second one since the first was still going on. He was basically sitting around while I played so.. more incentive to pack it in.

I'm not sure if it was my poor play or that the meta has just passed MUD again but I went 1-3, then said I'll play one or two more, my round 5 opp didn't show up at the table so I took it as a sign, heh. I beat Grixis Delver, lost to Miracles somehow (he just had an answer for everything at the perfect time), lost to lands and lost to BUG delver.

I just couldn't get anything going. I barely drew Chalice, I flooded to the point of having 24 Mana with no spells once.. I played with a couple extra Wurmcoils which, were pretty much the only saving grace of my deck that day. Delvers just can't deal.

I'll count my blessings though, Forest, because I do have weekly Legacy 15 mins away for $5. I think I'm going to put MUD on the shelf for a little bit though. Last weekend hurt haha. I sold 90% of my cards over the last few months and bought a Tabernacle at SCG. So, I'm switching to 4c Loam so at least I still get to Chalice on 1 ;)

I'll still check on the thread from time to time though. I haven't really seen anything too crazy from Amonkhet to try out.. good luck gents!

[forestfold]

Hey! Sorry for the late reply but I was pretty beat up that day. ...
I'll still check on the thread from time to time though. I haven't really seen anything too crazy from Amonkhet to try out.. good luck gents!

No worries, I was fighting it out for points because I am very close to 2 byes for next season so I stuck to the bitter end. It was a hard day for me too. I find the BUG delver deck to be easier than the older delver MU's, but all the delver decks that win the die roll and have delver into daze/or force and then it immediately flips are often just going to get you unless they draw all air after that. Leovold is difficult to actually deal with (without giving them a bunch of cards) unless you have Ugin or All is Dust, but overall I find that they have slowed down a little which is good for us. And yeah, Wurmcoil is just impossible for those decks to efficiently deal with. The second or third ones usually have them giving up on the spot.

If the deck has you down, definitely switch out to something else. I always try to recommend building into a space instead of a deck whenever you can, and having a second deck in any format is helpful when you just get tired of grinding. I am fortunate enough to have an old and large collection (I play Enchantress, all the Stoneblade/control variants and occasionally delver variants in legacy, and once in a great while ANT) and it is helpful to see other sides of the battlefield even if you stick to one deck to play. Good luck with Loam!

[bruizar]

the manabase is already tight but im bullish on grasping dunes.
http://media.wizards.com/2017/dw466ytu5_akh/en_g9OCe2ngWl.png


Kills infect, elves and dnt creature bases.

[MrFrowny_]

the manabase is already tight but im bullish on grasping dunes.
http://media.wizards.com/2017/dw466ytu5_akh/en_g9OCe2ngWl.png


Kills infect, elves and dnt creature bases.

You could run it in lists with a heavy crucible of worlds theme, maybe better in stax builds but you could try it.

[Jakobian1010]

How has MUD been faring lately since the metagame is so stuffed full of dnt, burn, and BUG decks? Seems like bad matchups all around. I haven't been playing it because of those decks' ridiculous popularity. BR reanimator seems like it's also a bad matchup.

[BlackHawkX9]

How has MUD been faring lately since the metagame is so stuffed full of dnt, burn, and BUG decks? Seems like bad matchups all around. I haven't been playing it because of those decks' ridiculous popularity. BR reanimator seems like it's also a bad matchup.

From my experience, BUG still has big issues with wurmcoil and sundering titan, with or without leovold. So, I've kept running 3 wurm main, 1 in the board, and even 1 batterskull in the board, and I seem to fair just fine with BUG. Burn is always gonna be rough, if they drop a price of progress. And DnT is a weird match, it is what it is.

BR reanimater has changed my board grave hate to all faerie macbres, and I board into super control. Board in thorn, sphere, etc and just sit back, and beat them down with metalworker I you have to. And bring in revoker for the sneak backup plan. As long as they don't get the nuts turn 1 kill and you have any lock piece to drop turn 1, you should be ok.

[Stuart]

From my experience, BUG still has big issues with wurmcoil and sundering titan, with or without leovold. So, I've kept running 3 wurm main, 1 in the board, and even 1 batterskull in the board, and I seem to fair just fine with BUG. Burn is always gonna be rough, if they drop a price of progress. And DnT is a weird match, it is what it is.

BR reanimater has changed my board grave hate to all faerie macbres, and I board into super control. Board in thorn, sphere, etc and just sit back, and beat them down with metalworker I you have to. And bring in revoker for the sneak backup plan. As long as they don't get the nuts turn 1 kill and you have any lock piece to drop turn 1, you should be ok.

This interests me. Can you post your list? I cut Thorns etc from my board a while ago, because I found I needed extra space for cards for fair matchups.

#

Also, this list intrigues the hell out of me (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=22857&iddeck=176810).

[BlackHawkX9]

This interests me. Can you post your list? I cut Thorns etc from my board a while ago, because I found I needed extra space for cards for fair matchups.

#

Also, this list intrigues the hell out of me (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=22857&iddeck=176810).

I've been rocking a pretty regular list. As of lately, I've taken first place at the last 4 of my local 20+ man weekly tournaments that I've been to.

4x metalworker
4x lodestone golem
4x kuldotha forgemaster
3x wurmcoil engine
1x blightsteel colossus
1x steel hellkite
1x platinum emperion
1x sundering titan

4x chalice of the void
4x grim monolith
3x trinisphere
2x lightning greaves
2x ugin, the spirit dragon
1x staff of domination
1x spine of ish sah

4x ancient tomb
4x cloudpost
4x glimmerpost
3x vesuva
3x city of traitors
3x cavern of souls
3x wasteland

Board-
4x faerie macabre
1x wurmcoil engine
1x batterskull
2x phyrexian revoker
2x sphere of resistance
1x crucible of worlds
2x warping wail
2x ensnaring bridge

Extra notes. Debating cutting e-bridge again, because all I ever want it for is against dark depths, and sneak and show. It doesn't do anything vs reanimater, it doesn't get out fast enough and they run tidespout tyrant. Thinking about maybe running more fair fighting stuff. Ugin and steel hellkite have been complete saviors against dnt, bug, and other fair matches. Since making the jump from 1 boots to 2, will never go back.

[Runninonwater]

Hello everybody!

I just procrastinated when it came to trying out MGBs Legend MUD list, but i finally got to try it!
However i had to do a few cuts and switch out some cards.

i ran this list!

Land (24)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Cloudpost
1x Crystal Vein
1x Eldrazi Temple
1x Eye of Ugin
4x Glimmerpost
2x Karakas
3x Vesuva

Artifact (20)
2x Basalt Monolith
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Grim Monolith
2x Pithing Needle
2x Thran Dynamo
4x Trinisphere
2x Voltaic Key

Planeswalker (7)
4x Karn Liberated
3x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Creature (9)
1x Emrakul, the Promised End
1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2x Kozilek, the Great Distortion
4x Thought-Knot Seer
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

Sideboard (15)
1x Coercive Portal
3x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Faerie Macabre
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Powder Keg
3x Wurmcoil Engine

Changes i had to make because of not having the cards:
- 1 Emrakul, the Promised End
- 1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
- 1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
- 1 Crystal Vein
- 2 Voltaic Key


switched for

+1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
+1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
+1 Karn
+1 Eldrazi Temple
+2 Pithing Needle

I felt like a Ulamog would be nice in the main deck, that repeatable spotremoval can be quite huge and advantageous. Sadly
i do not have a second Emrakul and i didn't want to force the OG Emrakul, it felt too expensive.

Kozilek, this is what i had and i quite like him, never got to draw him, i guess that's fine? Yes, it does not protect your board
and counter stuff, but i figured its better than nothing, and one swing can change the game.
Plus he draws cards even if i have 7 cards in hand.

I do not have 4 Ugins so i tried out a fourth Karn. Thing is we have a few Eldrazi players so i felt like it wasn't the dumbest
of choices.

Eldrazi Temple: I figured since all the creature spells we have are Eldrazi, this as a one of Solland for that creaturetype
ain't that bad and i don't have to sacrifice it to gain that extra mana.
Yes, it sucks if im short 1 mana for Karn or Ugin, and it does not enable a Turn 1 chalice or Turn 2 Sphere, but this is what i
had at home so.

Oh and the two Pithing Needles instead of Voltaic, i didn't have 4 Voltaics so i added two needles because i felt they
could protect me against wasteland and was just a nice answer in general towards many decks.
It filled the same kind of function when i have a Kozilek, the Great Distortion active as well.

Sideboard:

4 Faerie Macabre instead of 4 Leyline of the Void.
- I simple do not have 4 Leylines, luckily there's like no dredge players around in our meta so i figured i can pack these.
And they can remove cards from the stormplayers and Reanimator players, which we have a few of.

2 Powder Keg instead of 1 Coercive Portal and 1 Ensnaring Bridge
These were just cute additions, i kinda realised their limitations when i fought a monoblack player because i couldn't
destroy his Lilianas or his Phyrexian Arenas, but they did the job and saved me because i could blow up his Bloodghasts.

MGBs OG list that i copied:
Sideboard (15)
2x Coercive Portal
4x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Wurmcoil Engine

And i even got to play some legacy last night!

i Faced of round 1 against a Miracle (mentor version) player and had to mull to five to get a somewhat decent hand.
Got an early Trinisphere followed up by a Thought Knot Seer, but i managed to sword it, find his 1 of Council's Judgement
and take over the game with mentor and top.
Not my game at all...

Game 2 i managed to get 3 cloudposts in a row so he couldn't really counter my mana rocks to stop my lategame.
Thing is he boarded in 2 Back to Basics and it totally hosed me.
I even managed to get to 8 mana with the Back to Basics out, him having a mentor out with 1 white up, i figured
this was my chance but no.
He forced my Ugin. I had 17 mana or so that i couldn't use. He killed me Shortly after with his army of monks.


0-1 :/

Next match was against a newcomer to the legacy scene. I got a trinisphere out but he managed to stick Two early Grave crawlers
which killed me because i never got anything but manaproducing cards.

I saw his deck before the tournament and it was like, 20 onedrops or so, so i kept chalice and Trinispheres.
I didn't sideboard in Wurmcoils because i was afraid of his Obliterators, but now that i think of it, it would only be a problem if he had
two out.

Anyway, i sideboarded in my Powder Kegs and they did slow down the game a bit. Managed to keep his Bloodghasts off me.
Some bad decisions after thoughtseize gave me the win.

Last game he mulled to five and only got a Bloodghast, a Thoughtseize and lands. I proceeded to play early Ugin into Eldrazi.

I hope i'll see him again for some more Legacy. Sadly we have Legacy like once a month here... Next month we won't
even have any legacy.

1-1.


Third match was ELVES! Those pesky little things. He got some early Dryad Arbours out and proceeded with the beatdown.
I managed to land an Ugin when i was at 1 life and stabilize, phew.

Boarded in some powderkegs, blow it up at 1 is quite the value, same at 0 if he plays Dryad arbors.
Even Through my Trinisphere he managed to finally get mana towards a Natural Order and kill me with his Hoof and trees.
:(
I manaflooded and he couldn't play anything because of Chalice on 1, he even had pithing needle for my ugin. I kept this in mind in
game 3.

Game 3 i ramped, he got a Sylvan Library out, Deathrite shaman, Dryadarbor, some other elves and what not.
I managed to Stick an Ugin, exile all his coloured permanents and next turn i Ulamoged away his bayous and left him with a Cradle.

He wasn't very glad and i could see he did not like ugin. No rematch for fun either.

2-1!

Last match and i just hoped for the stormplayer.


and i got it!

Chalice on one, it stuck. Proceeded to play Trinisphere, he scooped.

Next turn i manaramped with rocks and Voltaic Key into a really early Emrakul, i think it was turn 3 or 4.
I think i sneaked in a Trinisphere as well, it did slow him down.
He lost because he played a Duress intead of a Cabal Therapy, and his words was: What's the chance that he'll have two Trinispheres?...

Haha.

Well, as the spoiler said, after i slammed Emrakul i got the handshake and he said GG.

3-1!

Summary:
I like the deck but sometimes i had to mulligan because of drawing 4 cards in my opener where the average cmc was 9.
Sometimes i wished i played Lodestone Golem but that could be because of im so used to play them.
Gonna see if i can test it some more!


Sad thing is, i never got to bounce my Eldrazis

[Stuart]

i Faced of round 1 against a Miracle (mentor version) player and had to mull to five to get a somewhat decent hand.
Got an early Trinisphere followed up by a Thought Knot Seer, but i managed to sword it, find his 1 of Council's Judgement
and take over the game with mentor and top.
Not my game at all...

Game 2 i managed to get 3 cloudposts in a row so he couldn't really counter my mana rocks to stop my lategame.
Thing is he boarded in 2 Back to Basics and it totally hosed me.
I even managed to get to 8 mana with the Back to Basics out, him having a mentor out with 1 white up, i figured
this was my chance but no.
He forced my Ugin. I had 17 mana or so that i couldn't use. He killed me Shortly after with his army of monks.


0-1 :/

Well, fortunately you'll never have this happen again.

So the Miracles ban is pretty interesting for MUD. If you're of the opinion that MUD's a Miracles crusher, the ban probably feels bad. BGx might fill the power vacuum in the immediate short term, and we generally don't like to play vs those decks. Likewise, people might spend the next few weeks with their yolo hats on, jamming stuff like Belcher and Elves that can be hit or miss for Chalice decks.

On the other hand, maybe it's not so bleak!
- For a while I've been saying we're not amazing vs Miracles, as B2B, From the Ashes, and Mentor really improved their matchup against us.
- It's possible that ANT sees an uptick, and also cuts back on Abrupt Decay.
- As people worry about combo taking over, maybe Delver sees a resurgence. We don't exactly stomp Delver decks, but apart from BUG, we're usually even or slightly favored.

Thoughts?

[Jakobian1010]

My matchup with MUD vs miracles is 10-3 (rounds, not games), so the Miracles ban in the MUD vs. miracles aspect is kind of meh for the deck. The fact that Miracles is no longer around is potentially a HUGE upside for MUD though, since people will probably feel more free to play combo decks, which MUD preys on. Elves will be more popular, and storm might come back into the forefront of the metagame. If that's the case, I'm definitely considering getting back to MUD as my go-to deck. The meta needs to shift away from BUG a little bit more for my liking, but GP Vegas is 2 months away still, so there's time for change between now and then :)


What's everyone's favorite/best tech for MUD in the burn matchup? I'm considering trying 1 zuran orb (helps me dodge price of progress, and can keep me alive potentially)

Has anyone tried Zuran Orb or Sun Droplet? Sun Droplet is the other card I'm considering.

[BlackHawkX9]

What's everyone's favorite/best tech for MUD in the burn matchup? I'm considering trying 1 zuran orb (helps me dodge price of progress, and can keep me alive potentially)

Has anyone tried Zuran Orb or Sun Droplet? Sun Droplet is the other card I'm considering.

My buddy plays burn regularly, so I've playtested alot against them. I've had best luck against burn by just playing the control deck. Chalice on 1 and 2, trinisphere, lodestone, sphere of resistance from the board, 4th wurmcoil in the board, and a 1 of batterskull in the board, platinum emperion main. . Just play it like we always do. Just don't board out spine or all your ugins, for their ensnaring bridge. Spine kills it, ugin just shoots over it.

[nimkee]

I played this list last night, and have been testing it a bit. Here's the list:

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
1 Urborg
1 Thespian Stage

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere

4 Grim Monolith
4 Thran Dynamo
2 Voltaic Key

4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 New Kozilek
1 Kozilek, the Butcherer
2 Oblivion Sower
1 Endbringer

2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 All is Dust
2 Warping Wail

SB:
3 Pithing Needle
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Spatial Contortion
1 Warping Wail
1 Endbringer
1 All is dust
2 Wurmcoil

Went 4-0. The first "round" was with a friend while we were waiting.

vs UB Omnitell

g1: on the draw. t1 thought seize takes out my chalice. I t1 monolith off a tomb into key into tks and see a hand full of 1 drops and a limdul's vault. He untaps and plays a land, passes and I untap monolith and play a dynamo off another sol land. He eot vaults and untaps, plays a SnT, I drop an eye of Ugin and him an Omni. I search for Oblivion Sower and exile his top 4, a cunning wish / emmy and a couple of other stuff. He cantrips a couple turns while i search up for a nulamog and eventually exile his Omni.

g2: I lose to an Emmy off show and tell but it was actually kind of close. I think I misplayed b/c I almost had mana up to newlamog his emmy.

g3: He thought seizes my chalice but I ramp into tks and a t3 newlamog that exiles his two lands. He drops an ancient tomb with an island up and a petal, he shows in an omniscience but I dropped a trinisphere. I swing in and have mana up next turn to search and cast whatever.

I sided in big emmy, an extra warping wail, and an endbringer.

Rounds 2 and 3 were against imperial taxes. I won both game ones, on the play, with a t1 sol land into monolith into key and either chalice round 2 or tks round 3. The 2nd games I sided in warping wail x1, spatial contortion x 2, all is dust x 1, wurmcoil x 1, pithing needle x 3, siding out 4 chalice, 3 sphere, and 1 new kozilek. The boarded games were pretty ugly.

Round 4 was against infect.

He won the die and played t1 g elf. I played a tapped cloud post. He played a noble and another elf, attacked for 2. I untapped, played a glimmerpost, then played a trinisphere which he dazes. On his turn he pendelhavened the elf and attacks with the noble trigger. My turn I play a cloudpost. He plays another noble then attacks, with both triggers on the stack he pendelhavens his guy (not sure why he did it this way) but I warping wail it. I untap and all is dust. I eventually wipe up after landing a chalice on 1 and he shows me a handful of 1 drops.

I side in spatial contortion x2 warping wail x 1 pithing needle x 2. I take out Kozilek x 2, Ugin x 2, and Sower x 1.

He starts off with a tapped breeding pool. I play a cloudpost. He fetches a pool and plays a blighted agent. I play a glimmerpost and spatial contort on my turn. He plays an inkmoth and a noble. I play a sol land and cast chalice on 1, then trinisphere. He untaps and corrupters my chalice. I contort his corrupter. I untap into a tks taking his become immense. He starts beating in with inkmoth for a few turns but can't pump b/c of trinisphere and activating. I copy his inkmoth with my 1 of thespian stage and chump block, then eventually search up something big with eye of ugin and end it a few turns later.

This deck feels awesome. Its one of the funnest decks I have played in a long time. I originally thought to make U/g cloudpost, or a show and post UG build but I might just stick with this for awhile. Having the stompy package of chalice and trinisphere is a beating for a lot of decks.

[Stuart]

Nice run, Nimkee! However, the Big Eldrazi thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30579-BigEldrazi) might be a more productive place for that report.

[nimkee]

Ah ok. I saw Runninonwater post a very similar list above with a report so I figured it was the right place. Thanks^^

Nice run, Nimkee! However, the Big Eldrazi thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30579-BigEldrazi) might be a more productive place for that report.


Sent from my SM-G935S using Tapatalk

[Stuart]

Cheers Nimkee. Obviously I'm not a mod and it's not up to me what gets posted in this thread. In my opinion, Metalworker MUD plays differently enough from Big Eldrazi, Legends MUD, and Colorless 12-Post that it makes sense to keep them separate. That said, it's possible that we should all be sharing ideas and trying to find a balance between strategies (e.g. the Big Eldrazi decks inspired me to reincorporate Dynamo into my Metalworker list).

[nimkee]

Cheers Nimkee. Obviously I'm not a mod and it's not up to me what gets posted in this thread. In my opinion, Metalworker MUD plays differently enough from Big Eldrazi, Legends MUD, and Colorless 12-Post that it makes sense to keep them separate. That said, it's possible that we should all be sharing ideas and trying to find a balance between strategies (e.g. the Big Eldrazi decks inspired me to reincorporate Dynamo into my Metalworker list).
I do have a couple of questions you might be able to help with. I saw some people running 4 of each and 2 basalts on top of that. Have you run the basalts or found them helpful at all? Do they work pretty well with straight MUD? I dropped them and it seemed smoother with just the main 8.

Also, 3 voltaic keys. I often drew one after chalice on 1. I moved to a 2 key build and ran into that much less but also missed some of the explosive starts. I sort of want to board 1 for non combo matchups. Any experience with or thoughts on this you could share would be great.

Ill try to keep questions more MUD relevant / related.

Sent from my SM-G935S using Tapatalk

[bobomb]

Dusting off my MUD deck for a LGS tournament of unknown meta.

Here's what I'm bringing:

4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite

2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

2 Lightning Greaves
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Staff of Domination
1 Spine of Ish Sah

4 Grim Monolith

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
4 Wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Inventors' Fair

SB:

1 Platinum Emperion
1 Duplicant
1 Bottled Cloister
2 Spellskite
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Warping Wail


I'm rolling with an Elves player so I know that will be there. Other than that I'm not sure what to expect so I'm trying to cover my bases with my sideboard.

Any suggestions are appreciated. If it's interesting enough I may write up a report after.

[Gaudy]

hi everyone, it's been awhile since my last post ask for some guide for this deck.
First, thank again i improve my game with your help and got better results.

i made some changes to my list

4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan
3 Walking Ballista

2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

1 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
4 Grim Monolith
2 Thran Dyanmo
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
3 Wasteland
4 Vesuva

i managed the game against d&t in a better way and understand the match up in new layers of thinking.
-No need to rush in
-Chalice is still good
-Keep a stable manabase hand
-be conscious of the board state
-Ballista is the law
with this in mind i improved my record from 0-5 to a 4-1-1 against d&t

in tournament my record it got much stable i'm no longer a 4-0 o 0-4 player

thank to all

[P210]

Found following list in the combo section of Mtg Top8 listed under Cloudpost Ramp.
Overall more Control / Combo orientated with mainboard Ensnaring Bridge, Planeswalkers and no aggro creature settup, but still using Kuldotha Forgemaster and Metalworker...
Scrap Trawler seems interesting in combination with Kuldotha Forgemaster, Walking Ballista and maybe Ratchet Bomb?

What do you think, is Scrap Trawler worth tinkering?

From MtgTop8:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15261&d=292715&f=LE

24 LANDS
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
1 Crystal Vein
4 Glimmerpost
1 Inventors' Fair
2 Vesuva
2 Wasteland

15 CREATURES
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker
1 Platinum Emperion
2 Scrap Trawler
4 Walking Ballista

21 OTHER SPELLS
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Grim Monolith
1 Karn Liberated
1 Lightning Greaves
2 Staff of Domination
2 Trinisphere
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

SIDEBOARD
1 Blightsteel Colossus
2 Bottled Cloister
1 Orbs of Warding
1 Platinum Angel
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Sundering Titan
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Torpor Orb
1 Trinisphere

[Stuart]

Thanks for posting that list, P210 - that deck is insane and I kinda love it. Maindeck Crucible is sweet and makes Crystal Vein more playable, and while I'm not a fan of maindeck Bridge in more traditional builds, it seems really strong here. Trawler seems great, and I like that he's on 2 Staff of Domination (I wonder if that significantly increased his number of infinite combo wins? I've been on 1 Staff forever, but maybe adding a 2nd isn't the worst idea).

My only real criticism is no Lodestone: I understand that it's not an aggro build, but it's still hard for me to see how a 5/3 lock piece is ever bad in MUD.

*Edit: the other weird thing is 4 Forgemaster. He's moved most of the traditional tutor bombs (e.g. Sundering Titan) to the board, while Ballista and Planeswalkers can't be tutored. Is the Forgemaster role here getting lock pieces, Staff, and Trawler value?

[P210]

Thanks for posting that list, P210 - that deck is insane and I kinda love it. Maindeck Crucible is sweet and makes Crystal Vein more playable, and while I'm not a fan of maindeck Bridge in more traditional builds, it seems really strong here. Trawler seems great, and I like that he's on 2 Staff of Domination (I wonder if that significantly increased his number of infinite combo wins? I've been on 1 Staff forever, but maybe adding a 2nd isn't the worst idea).

My only real criticism is no Lodestone: I understand that it's not an aggro build, but it's still hard for me to see how a 5/3 lock piece is ever bad in MUD.

*Edit: the other weird thing is 4 Forgemaster. He's moved most of the traditional tutor bombs (e.g. Sundering Titan) to the board, while Ballista and Planeswalkers can't be tutored. Is the Forgemaster role here getting lock pieces, Staff, and Trawler value?

You're welcome.
And yeah, I'm wondering about similar stuff. I just checked the original page http://manadeprived.com/showdown-recap-march-9th-legacy/ where the deck is listed as Stax.
And I'd really like to see Smokestack in here, which would be also nice with Bridge / Crucible. But I think that would be a bad combination with Forgemaster. Also no Lodestone seems weird to me.
Seems the deck wants to power out a fast Ugin or Karn and hide behind Bridge when needed or go infinite with Staff and draw into lethal Ballista. I think thats where Forgemaster is the tutor for the last missing piece...

I was testing some more controlish MUD versions lately, and I think im going to test Scrap Trawler there. Mainly tinkering with Coercive Portal, Walking Ballista, Crucible of Worlds and Mox Diamond to replace the Forgemaster toolbox but keep enough consistency. Also tested Smokestack as lategame backup option for stalled boardstates. But no idea if that should go in the Stax threat, nonetheless I played it with full playset of Lodestone Golem and Wurmcoil Engine....

[BlackHawkX9]

Found following list in the combo section of Mtg Top8 listed under Cloudpost Ramp.
Overall more Control / Combo orientated with mainboard Ensnaring Bridge, Planeswalkers and no aggro creature settup, but still using Kuldotha Forgemaster and Metalworker...
Scrap Trawler seems interesting in combination with Kuldotha Forgemaster, Walking Ballista and maybe Ratchet Bomb?

What do you think, is Scrap Trawler worth tinkering?

From MtgTop8:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15261&d=292715&f=LE

24 LANDS
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
1 Crystal Vein
4 Glimmerpost
1 Inventors' Fair
2 Vesuva
2 Wasteland

15 CREATURES
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker
1 Platinum Emperion
2 Scrap Trawler
4 Walking Ballista

21 OTHER SPELLS
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Grim Monolith
1 Karn Liberated
1 Lightning Greaves
2 Staff of Domination
2 Trinisphere
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

SIDEBOARD
1 Blightsteel Colossus
2 Bottled Cloister
1 Orbs of Warding
1 Platinum Angel
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Sundering Titan
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Torpor Orb
1 Trinisphere


I don't think scrap trawler is worth tinkering up. I think it's more of a with trawler on the board, forgemaster sac'ing can give you 2 artifacts back to hand, to feed metalworker, hence the more focus on staff combo. Sac grim monolith's and get back chalice and ballista's. Block with trawler, get ballista back. I think it mainly revolves around anything dying with trawler out gets ballista back to shoot more damage over bridge, or countered/blown up chalices.

[P210]

#

Also, this list intrigues the hell out of me (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=22857&iddeck=176810).

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15676&d=295833&f=LE

Seems someone else tried this: Similar concept, at least Metalwork Colossus, Batterskull and Sanctum of Ugin are in...

[bobomb]

I retooled my MUD deck into a Construct-tribal control deck...

It faired well against Grixis delver in brief testing. Not sure what to cut to get it back to 60 though.


creatures: 15
4 Metalworker
4 Walking Ballista
3 Forgemaster
3 Scrap Trawler
1 Platinum Emperion

spells: 22
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Mind Stone
1 Staff of Domination
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Lightning Greaves

lands: 24
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 City of Traitors
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Inventors' Fair

sideboard:
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Trinisphere
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Sundering Titan
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Tormod's Crypt

[MrFrowny_]

61 cards is fine, I wouldn't worry about cutting a card.

[Stuart]

I retooled my MUD deck into a Construct-tribal control deck...

It faired well against Grixis delver in brief testing. Not sure what to cut to get it back to 60 though.
[/CARDS]

Cool list, Bobomb! Looks like a nice midpoint between Stax and traditional MUD lists.

I don't see much reason you shouldn't run Lodestone in the main. Feels like it could easily replace Scrap Trawler without throwing off the curve, and it'd still provide a strong lock piece. Other than Cavern there isn't any actual Construct synergy, is there?

*Edit: to get to 60, maybe cut a Bridge? You've got 3 Forgemasters and 2 Inventors' Fair (that can be re-used through Crucible) to tutor it up. That said I've never played that style list; maybe Bridge is too important to cut. If so, I'd say Grieves is probably your next best cut. I love me some Grieves, but it's not essential.*

[bobomb]

Cool list, Bobomb! Looks like a nice midpoint between Stax and traditional MUD lists.

I don't see much reason you shouldn't run Lodestone in the main. Feels like it could easily replace Scrap Trawler without throwing off the curve, and it'd still provide a strong lock piece. Other than Cavern there isn't any actual Construct synergy, is there?

*Edit: to get to 60, maybe cut a Bridge? You've got 3 Forgemasters and 2 Inventors' Fair (that can be re-used through Crucible) to tutor it up. That said I've never played that style list; maybe Bridge is too important to cut. If so, I'd say Grieves is probably your next best cut. I love me some Grieves, but it's not essential.*

Thanks for the feedback!

No there is no actual construct synergy other than Cavern.

The thought process with Scrap Trawler is that it recurs spent artifacts. With Scrap Trawler on the board a faded out Tangle Wire will recur a Walking Ballista or Chalice back to hand. Also the synergy with sacrificing artifacts to Forgemaster is relevant. I put Lodestone in the board, along with Trinisphere because I felt they are both better suited vs combo. Right now my maindeck is set to fight against fair decks.

Bridge is probably too important to cut (I'm considering a 4th), since the idea is that no one does any attacking and I'm just shooting with Ballista. I'll look into cutting Greaves. I used to run 3x, so it's hard to let go :)

I played a really grindy game vs BUG Midrange last night and it made me realize how much I missed Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. I was staring down both Jace and Lilianna, and desperately heaving Ballista shots at them, but it was too much to handle. And eventually Lilianna did her ultimate.

I'm currently testing -1 Inventors' Fair +1 Buried Ruin, and it was relevant in the grindy game above, recurring a ensnaring bridge that was abrupt decayed.

[procobrito]

Any chance of mirage mirror play in MUD?
He can copy post, metalworker or monolith for mana, lodestone in opponent turn or any big threat in battlefield.

Enviado de meu SM-G900MD usando Tapatalk

[Fry]

Any chance of mirage mirror play in MUD?
He can copy post, metalworker or monolith for mana, lodestone in opponent turn or any big threat in battlefield.


I think Phyrexian Metamorph is strictly better, same mana cost (2 life isn't a big deal the vast majority of the time), also Metamorph doesn't end at the end of the turn or continually cost mana to use.

[Airwave]

I think Phyrexian Metamorph is strictly better, same mana cost (2 life isn't a big deal the vast majority of the time), also Metamorph doesn't end at the end of the turn or continually cost mana to use.

Mirrage mirror is better against Show and Tell though... :cool:

[Fry]

Mirrage mirror is better against Show and Tell though... :cool:

So is Spine of Ish Sah

[procobrito]

I think Phyrexian Metamorph is strictly better, same mana cost (2 life isn't a big deal the vast majority of the time), also Metamorph doesn't end at the end of the turn or continually cost mana to use.

But the fact of mirage mirror can be a different thing each turn is a good thing. One turn you can copy your worker for mana, cast Wurmcoil Engine, in your next turn mirage mirror is another Wurmcoil Engine. Or you could use Forgemaster to bring Blightsteel Colossus and for only two mana you can copy it and attack in the same turn with your mirage mirror in the battlefield.

[MGB]

I've been playing the MUD Metalworker list with 4 Walking Ballista on MTGO in Leagues and have been doing pretty well with it.

Spoiler Alert: Walking Ballista is very good in this deck and in general.

[Stuart]

I've been playing the MUD Metalworker list with 4 Walking Ballista on MTGO in Leagues and have been doing pretty well with it.

Spoiler Alert: Walking Ballista is very good in this deck and in general.

Interesting! I tried Ballista for a few weeks when it first came out and didn't like it, but I recently put 3 back in the deck to try (have been playing Maverick so I haven't done said testing yet). My hesitation is that Ballista seems mediocre against anything bigger than an X/1, but maybe that's not true in practice.

MGB: did you find you were playing Ballista at all points in the game, or was it mostly a late-game bomb that takes over the board?

[Silverflame]

I like to keep at least 1 ballista for the infinite mana kill. I'm using 2 MD, because it's only a dead card against S&S.
I'm hyped to test Mirage Mirror, the more I think about the interactions, the better it looks.
It can pseudo haste your creatures, say you have a mirror in play, cast a metalworker/kuldotha/coil and copy it. It keeps S&S and lands in check. It can copy a goyf to block (oppponent have liliana and one goyf, he can't attack).
More niche plays would be generate mana if you have more than 2 cloudposts in play or net you 1 extra life for 1 mana as a glimmerpost. Copy a leovold in response to brainstorm. Copy a Batterskull(no token, but you can equip to gain life) or swords.
The only time it is useless is if you don't have mana and both you and the opponent have an empty board, in that case, there is nothing to worry anyway.

[MGB]

Interesting! I tried Ballista for a few weeks when it first came out and didn't like it, but I recently put 3 back in the deck to try (have been playing Maverick so I haven't done said testing yet). My hesitation is that Ballista seems mediocre against anything bigger than an X/1, but maybe that's not true in practice.

MGB: did you find you were playing Ballista at all points in the game, or was it mostly a late-game bomb that takes over the board?

It's good in all stages.

early on you can cast it as a 1/1 for 2 mana and it kills an early unflipped delver, or a pyromancer... or it just functions as a sac target for Forgemaster...

you can play it later as a 3/3 with ping ability, or pump it, dump mana into it... turn it into a real threat with "reach" and you don't care about spot removal on it.

and of course if you have to finish the opponent off, late game you can just cast it for lots of mana and dome them for like 5+ damage in one shot.

And of course being a "construct" means that Cavern of Souls naming "Construct" becomes even better in this deck, so you definitely play 4 Cavern of Souls.

[GradStudent]

I like to keep at least 1 ballista for the infinite mana kill. I'm using 2 MD, because it's only a dead card against S&S.
I'm hyped to test Mirage Mirror, the more I think about the interactions, the better it looks.
It can pseudo haste your creatures, say you have a mirror in play, cast a metalworker/kuldotha/coil and copy it. It keeps S&S and lands in check. It can copy a goyf to block (oppponent have liliana and one goyf, he can't attack).
More niche plays would be generate mana if you have more than 2 cloudposts in play or net you 1 extra life for 1 mana as a glimmerpost. Copy a leovold in response to brainstorm. Copy a Batterskull(no token, but you can equip to gain life) or swords.
The only time it is useless is if you don't have mana and both you and the opponent have an empty board, in that case, there is nothing to worry anyway.

psyched to hear how your mirage mirror testing is going, got a list already?

[Silverflame]

psyched to hear how your mirage mirror testing is going, got a list already?

Only tested 3 games so far, won all of them. 2-0 against bug midrange, 2-1 grixis delver, 2-0 eldrazi.
Notable uses where: used the mirror to copy a monolith and net 1 mana to cast Ugin against BUG. Copied a mimic then cast wurmcoil (but that game was already at my favor or I'd copy the coil straight away).

List:
24 Lands
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Inventor's Fair
3 City of Traitors
2 Vesuva
1 Karakas

36
4 Lodestone
4 Metalworker
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Mirage Mirror
2 Trinisphere
2 Walking Ballista
1 Staff of Domination
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Spine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Emperion
1 Blightsteel
1 Ugin

SB:
1 Karn
1 Endbringer
1 Hellkite
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Warping Wail
3 Pithing Needle
1 All is Dust
1 Contagion Engine

[Stuart]

Cool list, Silverflame! Happy to hear the Mirror is working out.

#

As I've complained about ad nauseum, my local meta has been pretty heavily fair/BGx/midrange for a while now. I've found that Metalworker MUD has struggled in that environment, but rather than put the deck down or continuing to bang my head against the wall, I want to try out some alternative builds that might be better in this meta. After looking at the Metalwork Colossus and Big Eldrazi lists, I landed on this as a starting point:

4 TKS
4 Lodestone
4 Batterskull
3 Wurmcoil
3 Ugin

4 Chalice
3 Trinisphere
2 Portal
4 Monolith
4 Dynamo

4 Wasteland
4 Tomb
4 City
1 Crystal Vein
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
2 Inventors' Fair

(Haven't drawn up a sideboard yet.)

The theory is to cut out the combo fluff like Greaves, Staff of Domination, etc. Essentially, I want the deck to be just high-impact cards and mana, kind of like Stompy (or, as a friend pointed out, very much like Modern Eldrazi Tron). TKS and Lodestone are great baseline threats, while Batterskull, Wurmcoil, Ugin, and Portal are all pretty scary for fair decks.

Haven't gotten to try it out yet, as I missed Legacy this week and won't be able to go next week, either. Still, I'll let you guys know if the list is anything decent.

[P210]

[...]
As I've complained about ad nauseum, my local meta has been pretty heavily fair/BGx/midrange for a while now. I've found that Metalworker MUD has struggled in that environment, but rather than put the deck down or continuing to bang my head against the wall, I want to try out some alternative builds that might be better in this meta. After looking at the Metalwork Colossus and Big Eldrazi lists, I landed on this as a starting point:

[...]

The theory is to cut out the combo fluff like Greaves, Staff of Domination, etc. Essentially, I want the deck to be just high-impact cards and mana, kind of like Stompy (or, as a friend pointed out, very much like Modern Eldrazi Tron). TKS and Lodestone are great baseline threats, while Batterskull, Wurmcoil, Ugin, and Portal are all pretty scary for fair decks.

Haven't gotten to try it out yet, as I missed Legacy this week and won't be able to go next week, either. Still, I'll let you guys know if the list is anything decent.

Nice to see someone else to trying MUD without Metalworker. I've been pretty happy with this MUD/(Stax) Hybrid. I tried Batterskull as well, but i was never really impressed. Smokestack can be replaced with some numbers of Steel Hellkite, Sundering Titan or Ugin, the spirit Dragon. But I made good experience to limit the top curve at CMC 6. I was also testing Icy Manipulator instead of the Ensnaring Bridges in the Sideboard, both to answer Show and Tell and Marit Lage stuff...

Mainboard:
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
1 Inventors' Fair
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Walking Ballista
3 Mox Diamond
4 Grim Monolith
3 Trinisphere
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Coercive Portal
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Smokestack
4 Wurmcoil Engine

Sideboard:
2 Zuran Orb
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Trinisphere
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Ensnaring Bridge

[Silverflame]

Cool list, Silverflame! Happy to hear the Mirror is working out.

#

As I've complained about ad nauseum, my local meta has been pretty heavily fair/BGx/midrange for a while now. I've found that Metalworker MUD has struggled in that environment, but rather than put the deck down or continuing to bang my head against the wall, I want to try out some alternative builds that might be better in this meta. After looking at the Metalwork Colossus and Big Eldrazi lists, I landed on this as a starting point:
list...

Thanks, I gonna try to playtest heavily this weekend, haven't got much time to do it properly yet. I got 5 more games, lost 2, one to Grixis delver 0-2 and one to Goblins 1-2.

Maybe your list could be improved by adding Endbringer MD or SB, it is good against S&T because it halt fatties and BG/delver as you can ping creatures/walkers.

[Stuart]

4 TKS
4 Lodestone
4 Batterskull
3 Wurmcoil
3 Ugin

4 Chalice
3 Trinisphere
2 Portal
4 Monolith
4 Dynamo

4 Wasteland
4 Tomb
4 City
1 Crystal Vein
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
2 Inventors' Fair

I got to test this list last night, so quick update for those of you who might have been interested in it: I don't recommend it. Basically, the deck felt like worse/slower Eldrazi. It didn't have any of the explosiveness or flexibility you get from Metalworker and Forgemaster, and was a little too clumped up at the 4-6 mana mark. I basically found myself constantly in situations where only Wurmcoil or Ugin could bail me out, but I didn't have any way of getting them. (For the record, I lost to Dredge, Merfolk, White Eldrazi, and crushed the bye).

[bobomb]

I cut Forgemaster recently... too much Grixis Delver and their stifles.


4 Metalworker
4 Walking Ballista
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Wurmcoil Engine

2 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
3 Voltaic Key
3 Trinisphere
2 Mirage Mirror
2 Coercive Portal
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Staff of Domination

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Inventors' Fair
4 Wasteland

[Greiver]

It's that time of year again. That's right GenCon! I've been playing MUD for around 3 years. Took about 6 months off from it because I picked Legacy Merfolk but I'm giving MUD a go at a few of the Legacy events at Gencon
Here is my current list, untested but it should be fine.

24 lands
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Vesuva
1 Inventor's Fair
1 Karakas

Creatures 19
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Metalworker
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Platinum Emperion
2 Walking Ballista

Other artifacts 17
4 chalice of the void
3 Trinisphere
2 Mirage Mirror
1 Staff of Domination
1 Staff of Nin
4 Grim Monolith
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Spine of Ish Sah

Like I said I have yet to play it but it's pretty close to my previous build. My sideboard is goons be similar to this depending on what pre game scouting reveals

1 Spine of Ish sah
2 End bringer
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Karn, Liberated
4 Warping Wail
2 Titans presence
1 Sundering Titan
1 Lightning Greaves
2 Tormond's Crypt
Let me know what you guys think. I'm going to get some games in probably on the 14th when I'm off of second shift. (Swing shift is a b**ch)

[IPreferBagels]

Been really skeptical about mirage mirror, but have yet to test it. Someonone who has tried a list with mirror tell me the pros and cons of the card. It seems bad to me because it demands a pre-existing boardstate, but who knows, I could be completely wrong.

[Greiver]

Completely get what you are saying. It does require a preexisting board state but the fact it can copy lands is a possible upside. Being able to copy a goyf and block a creature is pretty big. I think the pros are going to outweigh the cons but only time will tell. I'll give an update when I played against my buddy before we head for Indianapolis for Gencon. He has a Big Red Suprise, Bug Delver, Elves, Black Red reanimator, Death and Taxes and TES built. It should be a pretry good gauntlet to run it though. If it sucks I'll go to 3 Wurmcoil Engine and 3 Walking Ballista.

[GradStudent]

can mirage mirror target a card from a graveyard?

[TTX]

can mirage mirror target a card from a graveyard?

Pretty sure the answer is no. However the gatherer has no specific guidelines about this at present.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Uroborian]

No, is correct. Your graveyard list cards in that zone specifically as cards. so Mirror would have to say target creature card, land card or artifact card.

[chaosjace]

Took MUD to an event, had mirage mirror stave off marit lage today and eat several counter spells because people were scared of it.

[GradStudent]

Pretty sure the answer is no. However the gatherer has no specific guidelines about this at present.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

yeah I checked gatherer too, and usually it says "on the battlefield" to specify a card can't be targetted in gy, so two guys say no, guessing thats close to confirmed. I guess otherwise it'd be too good right?

[kombatkiwi]

yeah I checked gatherer too, and usually it says "on the battlefield" to specify a card can't be targetted in gy, so two guys say no, guessing thats close to confirmed. I guess otherwise it'd be too good right?

If 'target creature' meant 'target creature card in any zone' then there would be plenty of extra weird things that other cards could do e.g. Swords to Plowshares could be used like a Surgical Extraction.


114.2. Only permanents are legal targets for spells and abilities, unless a spell or ability (a) specifies that it can target an object in another zone or a player, (b) targets an object that can’t exist on the battlefield, such as a spell or ability, or (c) targets a zone.

[Silverflame]

I've Been really happy with 2 MD mirrors, up to the point where a D&T player said "yeah, this is a very bad match for me, GG" when I went 2-0. First game he revoked the t2 mirror, but Ballista set it free, so a few turns later I was swinging with 2 wurmcoils. He jailed the coil and proceeded to attack with flickerwisp, but mirror copied the wisp and saved the coil. Metalworker came down and soon I was threatening to beat with 2 blighsteels (1 mirror) so he conceded.
Second game went faster with a hand full of posts and Thought-knot, I drew a monolith and thought-knotted his t2 SoFI from stoneforge, then came metalworker and ballista for 7 clearing the board.

[Greiver]

I ended up playing this list at gencon, pretty happy with it overall. Didn't play the mirror in the 75 since I'm not sure how it is yet. I'm working on a home in the 75 now. I'll update when I see how it is.

23 land

4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
2 wasteland
2 inventors fair
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
3 cavern of souls

Creatures 18
3 walking ballista
4 metalworker
4 lodestone hole
2 kuldotha forgemaster
3 wurmcoil engine
1 blightsteel colossus
1 platinum emperion

Non creature artifacts 19
4 chalice of the void
4 lotus petal
2 thorn of amethyst
4 grim monolith
3 trinisphere
1 staff of domination
1 spine of ish sah

Sb 15
2 wasteland
2 tormonds crypt
1 walking ballista
1 trinisphere
3 faerie macabre
3 spine of ish sag
3 phyrexian revoker

We hung in the magic event area 90% of the time we spent there. I played against d&t, maverick, U/B reanimator, sneak and show, b/r reanimator, tin fins, b/g belcher , storm, mono red sneak attack, grixis delver. Pretty diverse field, mostly just pick up games. I would say it was probably in around 55-65% win percentage. Some games were in small comp REL events for a bye at eternal weekend. The changes I made sped the deck up to where I was always able to have a way to cast turn 1 disruption. The late game was still viable with wurmcoil engine or a huge ballista that could dome them at any time. It played a faster, more stable game that didn't suffer from late game slow down. Every threat except metal worker is a beater. I think this was my favorite configuration to date. If someone gives it a try let me know what you think. Sorry for rambling I just got back home to pa from the con, it was a 10 hour drive lol

[bruizar]

Well.. never gonna finish my playset of foil grim monoliths i'm afraid..

[Greiver]

Why what happened?

[bruizar]

Why what happened?

They jumped to $1k-$2k per foil

[Greiver]

They jumped to $1k-$2k per foil

Didn't think of that. Just saw 1 at GenCon for 1400. Just didn't put 2 and 2 together...

[bruizar]

So what about Sorcerous Spyglass? If there's going to be any deck, this card is made for MUD.

[P210]

So what about Sorcerous Spyglass? If there's going to be any deck, this card is made for MUD.

It competes with Revoker for the sideboard.
Shutting down mana abilities with Revoker can be crucial, but shutting down utility lands seems also good. In MUD it's the better option than Needle for sure.

Perhaps a mainboard option for Legends MUD / Big Eldrazi...?

[caprino]

It competes with Revoker for the sideboard.
Shutting down mana abilities with Revoker can be crucial, but shutting down utility lands seems also good. In MUD it's the better option than Needle for sure.

Perhaps a mainboard option for Legends MUD / Big Eldrazi...?
Legends mud is good in this moment?

Decklist? Thanks

[Airwave]

So what about Sorcerous Spyglass? If there's going to be any deck, this card is made for MUD.

I'm really excited about this one, but have to test it.

Might even be considered for mainboard-use, the casting cost is better this way because of Chalice and looking at the opponent's hand is certainly useful!

[bruizar]

I'm suggesting it for the following sequences on the play. The percentage of hands you get with these type of blowouts will increase dramatically compared to just the chalice hands...:


Turn 1 ancient tomb -> spyglass name fetch land (this does double duty against DRS! No lands in GY = no mana from DRS so it's -2 mana instead of -1 often)
Turn 2 wasteland

and

Turn 1 Ancient Tomb -> Chalice of the Void

Lantern in modern plays 4x pithing needle

[P210]

I'm suggesting it for the following sequences on the play. The percentage of hands you get with these type of blowouts will increase dramatically compared to just the chalice hands...:


Turn 1 ancient tomb -> spyglass name fetch land (this does double duty against DRS! No lands in GY = no mana from DRS so it's -2 mana instead of -1 often)
Turn 2 wasteland

and

Turn 1 Ancient Tomb -> Chalice of the Void

Lantern in modern plays 4x pithing needle


Sounds like a plan for a more lockdown / Stax orientated MUD...^^

By the way, Wasteland will turn DRS on again

[bruizar]

Sounds like a plan for a more lockdown / Stax orientated MUD...^^

By the way, Wasteland will turn DRS on again

woops, yeh the waste turns it back on. but still, without waste it is a tempo play that can put your opponent out of contention quickly, especially against greedy delver decks that wont be able to dig them selves out of a situation with brainstorm.

What I always disliked about wasteland is that it puts you behind on your land drops while the clock is ticking and you're tapping ancient tombs and eating bolts or delvers. This can serve the same role, plus serve as a maindeckable answers to other emergent problems and give you a welcome peek in their hand.

[Stuart]

I can't say if Spyglass is a better maindeck option than Revoker, but certainly seems better than Needle as a sideboard choice. The aforementioned Spyglass > name the fetch in their hand seems like pure happiness, but more importantly you can cast Spyglass through your own Chalice. I'll grab a playset and dick around with them.

[Nossman3]

Hello there,
long time lurker, first time posting.
Despite i have been playin more infect than mud recently, im still in love with the deck and i tweak my list a bit and i found It very interesting to play

4x cloudpost
4x glimmerpost
2x vesuva
3x city of traitors
4x ancient tomb
4x wasteland
1x inventor's fair
3x cavern of souls
1x buried ruin

Pretty straight foward manabase, i left few utility lands cause i don't play crucible

4x walking balista
This was my starting point; in a fair meta , i wanted a card that could cover the whole curve and be useful turn 1 and 10. Very good card

4x warping wail
3x spatial contortion
If you consider walking balista as a Little removal, we manage to reach a quantity of 11 board control elements for tiny creatures. I May low the Number of contortion a bit, but it's a card that's interesting also to add that bit more dmg you need sometimes, or to lower the toughness of a creature enough. Wail instead, is an awesome tool; It counters a lot of problematic cards such as natural order,show and tell, discard spells etc plus It gives ramp/chumpblock and removal on drs and delvers.

4x wurmcoil engine
The Beast of the fair matchups. This card Can be devastating in so many scenarios and Can be powered il by turn two with:

4x Grim monolith
I'm think of a split 3/1 in favor of dynamo, but sometimes this help cast a balista big enough to clear the board, a wurmcoil or a trinsphere in t1

4x chalice of the void
3x trinsphere

Pretty much standard, trinsphere raise the cost of your spell a bit, but it's soo good with wasteland It wins games Alone

2x lodestone golem
3x thought knot seer

This split is made to hold back combos while providing a solid clock. I have decided to put more ks beccause interacting with enemy's hand is so powerful in the current meta and the card overall performed well for me. I lowered the amount of golems beccause they tax also our card in this shell

2x coercitive portal
1x endbringer
1x all is dust

Having no tutor in form of forgemaster means that we need as some form of alternative draw, and portal is perfect in the task. All is dust is an awesome card since provides answer to enchantment, Walkers and TNN
61st card is endbringer, which i found awesome in the show and tell/depths matchup, but also can give some card advantage, gut-shot Little creature and provide a good clock , simultaneously.

Other valid options:

1) Ugin
Was a card that if resolve is gg, but having anche 8 mana cost (sometimes 9 beccause of lodestone) doesnt fit a build with zero metalworker
2) welding jar
This was a card that could be interesting, since some decks completely fold to lock pieces, and has alternative uses like regenerating a wurmcoil and a balista, but i found It too situational
3) phyrexian metamorph
Cool card, and good in some matchups but doesnt shine against most of the field
3) Additional copies of coercitive portal, thought knot seer or all is dust
This could be meta choices,if you find those card strong enough to put more copies


Sideboard is still wip, but i am excited to test spyglass

[Silverflame]

psyched to hear how your mirage mirror testing is going, got a list already?

I'm making the final adjustements for a tournament this saturday, any thoughts?

current list is:

1 Staff of Domination
1 Wastes
2 Walking Ballista
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Thran Dynamo
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
3 City of Traitors
2 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Steel Hellkite
4 Cloudpost
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Vesuva
2 Inventors' Fair
4 Glimmerpost
2 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Grim Monolith
2 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Metalworker
2 Mirage Mirror
SB: 1 Endbringer
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Warping Wail
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 All Is Dust
SB: 1 Contagion Engine
SB: 1 Basilisk Collar
SB: 1 Karn Liberated

[chaosjace]

I've been using dark steel citadel instead of inventors fair, it's so good, anti wasteland and ghostquarter, has allowed for turn 3 platinum emporeon.

4x ancient tomb
3x city of traitors
4x cloudpost
4x glimmerpost
2x Vesuva
3x wasteland
4x dark steel citadel

[AmokPL]

I've been using dark steel citadel instead of inventors fair, it's so good, anti wasteland and ghostquarter, has allowed for turn 3 platinum emporeon.

4x ancient tomb
3x city of traitors
4x cloudpost
4x glimmerpost
2x Vesuva
3x wasteland
4x dark steel citadel

care to share the rest of the deck? I PMd you but you probably missed that.

[Airwave]

I've been using dark steel citadel instead of inventors fair, it's so good, anti wasteland and ghostquarter, has allowed for turn 3 platinum emporeon.

4x ancient tomb
3x city of traitors
4x cloudpost
4x glimmerpost
2x Vesuva
3x wasteland
4x dark steel citadel


I'd only play Darksteel Citadel if you're seriously lacking artifacts. Otherwise Cavern of Souls or Inventors' Fair seem better choices to me.

[AmokPL]

I'd only play Darksteel Citadel if you're seriously lacking artifacts. Otherwise Cavern of Souls or Inventors' Fair seem better choices to me.

gee I don't know. the idea of not getting wastelanded out of play and the fact that citadel is another free fuel for forgemaster makes want to try them out.

[Airwave]

gee I don't know. the idea of not getting wastelanded out of play and the fact that citadel is another free fuel for forgemaster makes want to try them out.

I've played a set in the past. Problem is that they will just waste one of your other lands, so you're still stuck on low mana often. The fuel for forgemaster is nice ofcourse, if you lack artifacts you could definitely play them.

Anyway, we have a new way to beat Wasteland now right? T1: Tomb, Spyglass, name wasteland, go :cool:

[Silverflame]

I've been using dark steel citadel instead of inventors fair, it's so good, anti wasteland and ghostquarter, has allowed for turn 3 platinum emporeon.

I think citadel with fair would be good, it would activate faster.

I went terrible on the big tournament with my list, got paired with 2 show and tell, one sideboarded game I went tomb holding wail, land for needle sneak attack holding mana for wail, then got to 4 mana and comteplated on casting thought knot with cavern. Figured if my opponent had the combo, he'd go fir it, so I could take one piece of the combo, and next turn I'd have mana for wail again. I casted and saw a blood moon, show and tell and wipe away. I took S&T. he EOT wiped the Thought-Knot, drawing 2 cards, a Show and Tell and an Emrakul '.' Got him to 1 life and was annihilated.
Gonna try this list http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=13637&d=280259&f=LE

[Airwave]

I think this is the first time since I started playing legacy around 4 years ago that MUD is not in the "recent decks" list on MTG top 8 :frown:

Time to turn that around :cool:

[AmokPL]

I think citadel with fair would be good, it would activate faster.

Gonna try this list http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=13637&d=280259&f=LE

I am coming from that deck. Even though it is great to have an early Ulamog, you often end up being overwhelmed by small creatures. I decided to rebuild as a MUD deck and so far it has been way more stable.

[Silverflame]

I am coming from that deck. Even though it is great to have an early Ulamog, you often end up being overwhelmed by small creatures. I decided to rebuild as a MUD deck and so far it has been way more stable.

I probably went too far away from classic MUD, maybe I should get in touch with my metallic roots again.

[shallowend]

I think this is the first time since I started playing legacy around 4 years ago that MUD is not in the "recent decks" list on MTG top 8 :frown:

Time to turn that around :cool:Just seen this and had to check. I was going to play maverick at a local win-a-tundra event but hearing about this has made my decision on deck choice for me. Time to sleeve up the robots and get to work.

Sent from my F3111 using Tapatalk

[AmokPL]

Had my first legacy tournament in like 5 years with just finished MUD deck last Tuesday. I love it. I used to play old extended Tinker deck so all the memories :D Well, went 2-2 losing to Grixis Control and Nic Fit, both games really tight ending 1:2 so decent show.

Anyway here is the list:


4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
2x Vesuva
4x Darksteel Citadel
3x Wasteland

4x Metalworker
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
4x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Sundering Titan
1x Blighsteel Colossus
4x Lodestone Golem
1x Platinum Angel
1x Walking Ballista

4x Chalice of the Void
3x Trinisphere
4x Grim Monolith
1x Staff of Domination
1x All is Dust
2x Karn Liberated
1x Batterskull

SB

4x Leyline of the Void
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Trading Post
1x Witchbane Orb
1x All is Dust
3x Spatial Contortion
3x Warping Wail

I have no access to 4th City nor Caverns otherwise I would play them but the deck performed well. Citadels performed good . Being an extra indestructible fuel for Forgemaster means that once you drop the KF you only need one more artifact. Full set of Wurmcoils also means I can block Rhinos all day and not really be afraid that much of Kolaghan's Command. Had been stuck hellbent with a lot of mana few times so might need to add some Coercive Portals and maybe more Ballistas. Seems like Batterskull doesnt really belong here although it can be played t2 one turn faster than Wurmcoil.

Question 1 - since I have access to Karns instead of Ugins should I keep playing them or invest in Spirit Dragons? Never had a chance to play the Golem but even if I could I don't think it would do as much of a difference as Ugin would.
Question 2 - would Emperion be better than Angel? I mean, they all die to KC but hmm PE seems hmmm fatter?
Question 3 - Sorcerous Spyglass seems amazing I might replace the Revokers with it. anybody had experience with it?

[shallowend]

I am a huge ugin fan, the -x wins games you had no right winning and the ultimate is attainable and absurd in a deck with no spells.

Angel/emperion - I play angel as it is an out to wonky situations such as painter combo and infect. I run the emperion in the side for when I need a second copy of that effect.

I would be reluctant to replace revoker but I tend to lower my curve and be fairly aggressive against most lists (I play 3 Thought-Knot seer main)

Have been testing spyglass but initially impressions are the look at their hand is a trap, you should probably just name the thing you bought it in to name *coughwastlandcough*

Sent from my F3111 using Tapatalk

[AmokPL]

thanks. I see a copy of Cavern of Souls in many lists. How is one copy relevant?

[shallowend]

thanks. I see a copy of Cavern of Souls in many lists. How is one copy relevant?Seems strange to me as well. I have never felt that there is any creature which is a "must resolve". I assume it's one of the best taps for colourless lands and people want to fill those slots. I have always preferred 3 wastelands and an inventors fair. Wasteland works well with chalice/lodestone and and the fair does a lot of work mitigating tombs and being a late game threat

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[Palacejailer]

Hi everyone. Newer Metalworker player. How does the deck deal with Null Rod or Stoney Silence?

I really only see 4 options, Karn Liberated, Scorn of Existence, Culling Scales or Spine of Ish Sah.

Is there some more options that I don't know of?

[darkgh0st]

Hi everyone. Newer Metalworker player. How does the deck deal with Null Rod or Stoney Silence?

I really only see 4 options, Karn Liberated, Scorn of Existence, Culling Scales or Spine of Ish Sah.

Is there some more options that I don't know of?

Null Rod is a rare sight but does happen and is usually used in tempo decks. Pray you get to Karn or Spine and it resolves or survive a Wurmcoil to do work.

Stony Silence is even more odd, so I'm assuming its vs control. You should still be favored in that match up. Make your land drops and cast big stuff, don't overextend your board in case of wipes.

[sco0ter]

Here's the deck, which got 22nd place at Eternal Weekend 2017 (Source (https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/7833nt/the_amount_of_rogue_decks_in_the_top_64_of/))

Congrats to the finish!


2 Walking Ballista
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus

3 Chalice of the Void
2 Grim Monolith
1 Lightning Greaves
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Staff of Domination
3 Trinisphere
1 Bottled Cloister
1 Coercive Portal
1 Ghirapur Orrery
1 All Is Dust
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

4 Ancient Tomb
2 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Petrified Field
1 Thespian's Stage
3 Vesuva

Sideboard:

2 Faerie Macabre
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Angel
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Orbs of Warding
1 All Is Dust
1 Karn Liberated


Not sure, if the author is active here on The Source, I'd really love to hear his input here, too.

A few interesting considerations from the author:
Thorn of Amethyst better than Chalice, hence only 3 Chalice.
No Wastelands because ramp is more important than disruption.

[Stuart]

What a hero. Definitely lots of ideas I'd like to try out:

- As you mentioned, no Wastelands is interesting, especially given what he replaced them with. Petrified Field and Stage are awesome tech.
- Thorn is interesting. It's obviously insane against all the Delver what was running around, but he's also got a pretty high concentration of non-creature artifacts that get taxed by it.
- A little surprised by Blightsteel when he's only running 2 Forgemasters. Would love to know if that was ever a problem for him.
- I love the Cloister/Portal/Orrery split.
- I also like the All Is Dust. Even though I'm partial to 2-3 Ugin, All Is Dust gets the job done at a slightly cheaper rate.
- Ulamog in the board is interesting. How castable is it and what's it in there for?

[malfie13]

Hello all. I'm the guy who got 22nd. I wholeheartedly wish I knew this enormous stream on the deck existed say maybe 3 weeks ago or 4 years ago. Ive been on this deck a long-ass time, with nobody else to really bounce ideas off of. I'm here to take my medicine, as I have a friend who clued me into this site's existence. Feel free to ask me any questions about my deck my choices and my experience. Ps that it's not really relevant anymore I'm going to read this rather massive Guide to the deck and see what I agree on and what I disagree on and what from your experiences I might be able to do to make my own deck better. As I said though, my deck is different for the reasons of my own tailoring which I'd be happy to defend

[malfie13]

What a hero. Definitely lots of ideas I'd like to try out:

- As you mentioned, no Wastelands is interesting, especially given what he replaced them with. Petrified Field and Stage are awesome tech.
- Thorn is interesting. It's obviously insane against all the Delver what was running around, but he's also got a pretty high concentration of non-creature artifacts that get taxed by it.
- A little surprised by Blightsteel when he's only running 2 Forgemasters. Would love to know if that was ever a problem for him.
- I love the Cloister/Portal/Orrery split.
- I also like the All Is Dust. Even though I'm partial to 2-3 Ugin, All Is Dust gets the job done at a slightly cheaper rate.
- Ulamog in the board is interesting. How castable is it and what's it in there for?

I'll answer these things first.

1) Wasteland takes me off tempo, too. It was and is good when there are creeping tar pits and inkmoth nexi running around. There were not and I assume that there wouldn't be.

2) I like Thorn better than chalice (did I really say that? Yes, yes I did). It's harder to deal with and remove. TYes, I get taxed by it too, and it comes out in some matches, which is why I usually run a fourth chalice in teh board along with teh Sphere of Resistance.

3) Yes, all is dust is basicall a cheaper overall one time Ugin. I did have two Ugins until I put in the fourth thorn, because well, 4 thorns. I like 2 Ugins better than one tho, and will wind up with it back in.

4) Dude, you do realize you can CAST blightsteel, lol. I won waaaay more games leadining up to teh event by floating a bazillion mana with metalwoker and staff and drawing my deck. Blightsteel got demoted to alt win con. With the two caverns main, I just cast Balista, make it uncounterable and ping to death. If balista gets needled or it is better to g1 not let an opponent know I run it, I default to drawing, casting, equipping and killing with blightsteel. People know that it exists, already. Forgemaster more often than not locks an opponent out with Sundering Titan under tax effects or hits a spine of ish sah so I can remove...whatever needs to die.

5) I mean, Ulamog CAN cast as early as turn 2-3 in a panic button sitcon. It's there to remove threats that are hard to deal with, or to deal with clogged elvie or fishie board states. I had a game that was a near mirror, vs eldrazi 10 post, where I exiled his win condition lands and then the rest of his deck. Really silly game.

[sco0ter]

Hello all. I'm the guy who got 22nd. I wholeheartedly wish I knew this enormous stream on the deck existed say maybe 3 weeks ago or 4 years ago. Ive been on this deck a long-ass time, with nobody else to really bounce ideas off of. I'm here to take my medicine, as I have a friend who clued me into this site's existence. Feel free to ask me any questions about my deck my choices and my experience.

Welcome to The Source.

Let me ask you some questions please.

- What's your opinion on Moxen (Diamond and Opal)?
- What can you say about different mana bases? It seems there are at least two different approaches:
Sol-Lands + utility lands (also Wasteland), (aka traditional?)
Sol-lands + 8-Post + Vesuvas (seems to be more popular since around 2015)
- Have you ever played Goblin Welder MUD? Or splashed another color? If so, what's your experience?
- Is there any way to find the singleton lands (Inventors' Fair, Stage, ..)? Does this deck need one at all?
- What's your opinion on a more prison-style approach (e.g. Crucibles, Smokestack, Ensnaring Bridge, Ratched Bomb, Tangle Wire)
- What about Voltaic Key and cutting Chalice, you don't like them anyway. I think older lists did it that way, too.
- Explain us, how Petrified Field is better than lands like Mishra's Factory, Rishadan Port, Wasteland, Cavern of Souls.
- What about +1 Steel Hellkite, -1 Wurmcoil Engine? Feels more flexible to me.

Thanks for sharing your expertise.

[malfie13]

Fair enough.

1) Moxes are a no go. Chalice on zero happrns t1 way too often and they dont add enough value. Opal turns on when? T2 or 3? We are not affinity.

2) I blend 12 post with a few utility lands, hense why i only have 3-4 flex slots, imo. I run fair, field and 2 cavern in my flex land slots. The only one i was unsure of in this toruney was field. Its a hedge vs wasteland heavy decks, but i seemed to mainly avoid them.

3) Splashing colors is a generally terrible idea. Welder mud is a totally different stategy, which works better in painter than it does in mud.

4) Stax is not the stratgy I feel is strongest in legacy. It works well in vintage because although one might think its more explosive stax would be worse, but i disagree. When people count on explosions winning them the game stifling that is a great strategy. Ramp deck MUD strategies that just blow past traditional decks feels correct. Its why decls that run moxes, deathrite and or heirarchs do well, while others do not.

5) Chalice straight up wins g1s, or eats the first force. Some decks actually cannot beat it. I run 3x because i love to see it early, and occasionally for a late lock, but getting chalice flooded is a way to lose games. Dont let me running three make you think i dislike it. I dont particularly like key, and would just as soon run candellabra, at that point.

6) Field is not an attack land, its a defense land. It comes out untapped, and taps for mana and can get any land back from the pitch. It was a hedge that i only needed once. If i knew that was the track, i would have just run three caverns. As i said elsewhere, the heirarchy is 1. Cavern, 2. Factory, 3. Wasteland for utility amd power, imo.

7) The wurmcoil in the sb is usually a hellkite. I literally changed it while sitting in the room the morning of. I listen to my travelling companions and they were pretty low on elves and creature swarm decks. Ironically, i coulda used it vs fish. Death and taxes finds it s must answer as well, but wtv. Next go round its back in the board. I dont disagree.

In response to more than one tho, dont discount lifegain as a stategy in this deck. I was hovering bt 1 and 4 life on my opponents end step for multiple turns for multiple games in multiple non red matches. Having the utility 1 life gained each upkeep can be important, and one swing or block from a wurm can be game swinging, even if it does no damage to an opponent. For example i had a game where the board state for the duration of four turns before i won was me with no creatures managing the board with a staff, and a lot of mana drawing cards and running my opponent outta resources and my opponent with a stoneforge, a batterskull with a jitte and a snapcaster mage.

[malfie13]

If anyone is actively curious about how any specific matches fanned out, i did also post a tournament report. That is linked to the thread on reddit and i will link here. https://tinyurl.com/yav7r3je

[Jakobian1010]

Hi malfie13! Welcome to the source, and great job on the finish with MUD! It's my favorite deck and I have a lot of experience with it, though it's been on the shelf for me for a few months. I have a couple questions regarding your card choices.

How useful has petrified field been for you? What about inventor's fair?

Did you miss having the 2 other forgemasters so you can tutor your outs?

Did you play many matches against tempo/mana denial strategies like D&T or just decks with 4 wastelands? To me it looks like cutting 2 grim monolith could be pretty devastating.

Do you feel you still need 3 trinispheres along with the 4 thorn of amethyst?

I like the list, it kind of borrows some of the cards that a stax list might play, without the stax part (bottled cloister, ghirapur orrery, coercive portal, the crucible of worlds in the sideboard)

(I'm also very glad you mentioned MUD mulligans often in your report! That's a key part of playing the deck well, IMO)

[sco0ter]

Thanks for your answers! You overlooked the one question about finding the singleton lands though, but there's probably no way.



1) Moxes are a no go. Chalice on zero happrns t1 way too often and they dont add enough value. Opal turns on when? T2 or 3? We are not affinity.


Right. But Mox Diamond could come before Chalice on zero. I also assume that Chalice on 1 happens way more often than on 0.
The idea is and was to facilitate turn 1 Trinisphere or Chalice on 1, if you don't have a Sol land.

Opal is probably bad here, unless you run Darksteel Citadel.



3) Splashing colors is a generally terrible idea. Welder mud is a totally different stategy, which works better in painter than it does in mud.


Because why? Inconsistency issues? I think Welder MUD was the first deck, which made Forgemaster popular and I think in 2015 it was the more popular MUD deck. Nowadays people like more the monobrown Cloudpost MUD decks.



4) Stax is not the stratgy I feel is strongest in legacy. It works well in vintage because although one might think its more explosive stax would be worse, but i disagree. When people count on explosions winning them the game stifling that is a great strategy. Ramp deck MUD strategies that just blow past traditional decks feels correct. Its why decls that run moxes, deathrite and or heirarchs do well, while others do not.


Not quite sure, what you want to say here. Is it like "better play threads, than answers"?



7) The wurmcoil in the sb is usually a hellkite. I literally changed it while sitting in the room the morning of. I listen to my travelling companions and they were pretty low on elves and creature swarm decks. Ironically, i coulda used it vs fish. Death and taxes finds it s must answer as well, but wtv. Next go round its back in the board. I dont disagree.


I meant replacing one of the two Wurms in the maindeck with Hellkite, in order to have more tutor targets for Forgemaster.

[Airwave]

If anyone is actively curious about how any specific matches fanned out, i did also post a tournament report. That is linked to the thread on reddit and i will link here. https://tinyurl.com/yav7r3je

Thanks for the report! Interesting list.

I especially like the Ghirapur Orrery combined with Bottled Cloister. I was always afraid the opponent would also get to draw three cards hurting myself as well. Also Leovold scared me out of it, but depends on meta ofcourse.

I'm playing my 2-colorbrew MUD next month, I still like it (for reference see p.178)