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sco0ter
10-25-2017, 10:29 AM
I'm playing my 2-colorbrew MUD next month, I still like it (for reference see p.178)

Nice :-)

I love Cavern of Souls on "Artificer"! I've tried it sometimes in UR with Master Transmuter, but haven't found a satisfying list yet.
I often found myself color screwed (guess I wanted too much, with 4 Wastelands).

And I can't use Cavern of Souls for the activation cost. But the same is true for your Stoneforge Mystic build, except it doesn't hurt as much.

malfie13
10-25-2017, 03:01 PM
I walk away for five minutes....

Ok, so let me respond again, and here we go:

@ sco0ter

Cavern tends to go on Golem in gridny games and Construct in faster games. Both hit the majority of important targets. Construct is obviously usually more important under a thorn and chalice on one. Nice bolt/swords.

@ Airwave

I will check out the extra info on page 178, and as far as Leovold goes, just kill it and off to the races. Lol. I know, easier said than done. Ugin suddenly becomes the world's most expensive bolt. The bigger issue with Leo is that there are usually only two in an opposing deck, even if it is named 4c Leovold. The issue with the deck is K Command, not leo. Chalice on 3 hoses both, but then you're rliant on your cavern to cast workers. Depends on where you are in the game if that is a relevant consideration. I know I have personally been there.

@ Sco0ter's first series today

Wurms in the mainboard cannot be moved. If you have an elves and DT heavy meta I can see putting the Hellkite main. Even hits eldrazi from time to time. That said, Lifegain is a real issue mid game, and if we do not accrue some amount of it, mid game quickly becomes late game and we lose. I reallt want three wurms MB, but there's just no more changes I can make to get them in there, unless I remove a staff, which is the feel bads when you run two forgemasters.

I can absolutely see a Mox Diamon in teh MB as a maybe 2 of, but the issue is what to cut. Also, I would alter the build to MB the Crucible, then. And, then I'd be hard pressed to not include Wastelands with the MB moxes AND crucibles. Warrants thought.

As far as colorful metal goes, I think that colorless MUD's biggest strength, other than stupid amounts of ramp, and over the top spells, is not worrying about hitting color requisites. Once you have an online Welder, that's not really a worry. Until then you've got to have a fetch suite that eats into your land count. It would definitely be difficult in a post build, although great in a Dack UR build. At least as I see it. As far as what is the most popular or more popular of the builds, I have nothing for you. Lol. I really don't know the wider history of MUD, only the build I have been on for like 3 years.

Yea, I think what I am saying with the stax mention is that sometimes when you're playing a non-blue deck, it's like Judo. Pull until you push and then explode your opponent onto his or her back. A deck that is either overly aggressive or overly passive will have obvious and glaring weaknesses. They just will. I mean, my deck has holes in it. All Legacy decks have holes in them. It's not really possible for any deck to be weak to nothing.

As far as repeated mentions of the two forgemasters, they are a value engine to tutor answers when the night is blackest. They don't die to lightning bolt, but they don't also auto win games. I have come to the realization that the quickest, hardest, straightest path to victory is slamming someone to zero with a ballista. All other win cons have been marginalized. People who know of MUD decks, and their strategies, are usually expecting to be infected by a hasty Blightsteel Colossus. So, the first game I win, I tend to offer my opponent that fate if they haven't yet seen a balista in the deck, yard or my hand. I mean, floating a zillion mana, and playing every tax effect in the deck followed by all is dust, greaves and a blightsteel usually results in an auto scoop. Then I have the freedom to surprise my opponent with something else next game. PS, you can also equip the greves and pump your hellkite pre combat to a zillion/5 and kill them that way if they have no fliers. It also results in auto scoops with all the tax effects out.

Early game trinisphere tends to be where I wanna be. More decks have more trouble with trinisphere than any other tax effect as they are trying to cheat on spells. They only come out vs Show and Tell and other over the top decks. That's about it.

malfie13
10-25-2017, 03:08 PM
Nice :-)

I love Cavern of Souls on "Artificer"!

WR by Airwave list looks hilarious. Has it performed well in comp play? I mean, I can see when a meta adjusts to an artifact deck in its midst getting used to playing specific kinds of hate.... When you go into the deep waters, if often gets easier instead of harder to implement your diabolic plans. Lol I am legit curious how this performs for you, please keep us updated!

Airwave
10-26-2017, 08:16 AM
WR by Airwave list looks hilarious. Has it performed well in comp play? I mean, I can see when a meta adjusts to an artifact deck in its midst getting used to playing specific kinds of hate.... When you go into the deep waters, if often gets easier instead of harder to implement your diabolic plans. Lol I am legit curious how this performs for you, please keep us updated!

I haven't seen anyone playing this.. like ever... and I don't play that much myself. But it has performed really well in a few smaller legacy tournaments I did take this list to.

It's nice to have an explosive list, there are many angles the deck can function around. Putting a lot of pressure on the opponent. It's surprisingly stable as well.

It is however more vulnerable against combo since both Trinisphere and Lodestone are lacking. Whereas Storm is sortof a bye normally for MUD, this is not the case with this list. Can't beat them all ofcourse :laugh:


Oh btw I did make two changes compared to p.178 inbetween:
-1 Staff of domination
-1 Thousand-Year Elixir

+1 Smuggler's Copter
+1 Thopter engineer

malfie13
10-26-2017, 08:29 AM
Hey guys, whatsup?

So, I'm seriously considering getting back into Legacy after a 4 year break from Magic. Having always loved and often played Stax and it's various derivatives, I feel like it would be a really cool deck to pick up to get back into the game. Truth be told, budget concerns are not the least of my reasons, but having never played with Metalworker and Grim Monolith in this format, I'd like to see how that plays out.
Anyway, not really having a team to seriously playtest with anymore, I'm turning to The Source to get some feedback on the list I'm working on.

My current draft of the maindeck:

// Lands (22)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
2 Darksteel Citadel
4 Mountain

// Engine(s) (11)
4 Metalworker
4 Goblin Welder
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster

// Moar mana (7)
4 Grim Monolith
3 Crucible of Worlds

// Beats (8)
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Steel Hellkite

// Bombs (2)
1 Sundering Titan
1 Mindslaver

// Support/misc (10)
4 Tangle Wire
3 Lightning Greaves
3 Faithless Looting

Some notes on the design philosophy I used:

- 22 lands is about 4-6 more than I've seen in most other lists. My reasoning was that
a) In my (limited) experience, (Worker) MUD has a highly volatile manabase. Which is to say, it's super explosive, but equally fragile. Because I don't want to scoop to opposing Wasteland + counter on Metalworker, a more stable manabase seems really good.
b) I hate forced mulligans because of manascrew. Contrariwise, it appears hard to be flooded in a deck with such high CMC cards.
c) Half of your lands blow themselves up or get eaten by Welder and/or Forgemaster, and finally..

- .. neither Mox Opal nor Lotus Petal seems to really work for me. Opal is not proper acceleration, as it's virtually impossible to be metalcraft on turn 1 or 2, where it seems most useful. Petal is, obviously, but it's neither a persistent manasource nor really a target for Welder and Forgemaster.

- 3 Crucible seems really good, both to stabilize the manabase further and to do nasty trick with Welders and Wastelands.

- I'm running 4 Hellkite and have cut Wurmcoil Engine entirely. The reasoning here is that
a) I'm severely lacking in board control, and this should remedy that somewhat.
b) Because I'm trying to win by turning big dudes sideways, evasion seems really good.
c) More board control synergizes better with my Tangle Wires and LD.
d) Minor point, but it's Firebreath acts like a useful manasink.
e) The above points outweigh both the increased synergy between Wurmcoil and Welder/Forgemaster, and the Wurm's lifelink ability.

- 4 Tangle Wire synergize with the overall LD plan, are insane with an active Welder, and just generally provide Time Walks all around.

- Only 2 bombs/dedicated Forgemaster targets, mostly to keep the amount of dead draws to a minimum. Of the two, Sundering Titan provides LD and a great body, while Mindslaver provides Time Walks at worst, an alternative wincondition at best, and is generally backbreaking against both combo and control.

Some random musings:
- I would love to find room for Chalice, Phyrexian Metamorph, Grim Poppet, Spine of Ish Sah, Batterskull and tbh also Wurmcoils, but the list feels really tight as is.
- I'm very much opposed to running 2-offs of anything in a deck with as little library manipulation as this, which seems to be in contrast to a lot of other builds I'm seeing. I'm wondering if nobody else has a problem with this?
- Blood Moon seems really good in a deck like this, but I feel might be better off in a more Stax-like build.
- Staff of Domination seems really win-more. If you have an active Metalworker and Kuldotha to find the Staff, along with three artifacts in hand, you should be winning anyway. I see no reason to run potentially dead, conditional cards.
- Blightsteel Colossus also seems really win-more, as he's a bitch to hardcast, the poison doesn't work very well with the deck's main route to victory which is damage dealing, and again, active Kuldotha (+ Greaves) should let you win with less conditional cards.
- Myr Battlesphere hasn't been as insane as I thought he was, but again this is from very limited testing.
- Overall, I feel the deck would improve in both consistency and stability by moving away from utility-oriented combo-esque builds, towards a more tempo-oriented aggro-control style version.

So, again, most of this is just theorizing as I've been out of the game for some time and am severely lacking in good playtest partners. Advice would be really welcome, especially with regard to specific matchups that I may have greatly weakened with this build. From what I can see, this is going to at least die horribly to Sneak Attack/Hivemind, but I feel most of the other DtB's aren't [I]as bad, at least.


TL;DR: I'm trying to make this deck slightly less explosive, in return for increased consistency and stability. Thoughts?

List looks interesting. Did you happen to see the list generated by one of my opponents in ew? He ran a mono black mudpost abyss braid stax deck. Super spicey. I believe he posted in the t64. It was good considering that there were like 750 players.

Anyway, there are a lot of matches where you need wurmcoil. Im a madman, and dont mine running several 2 to 3 of cards is im drawing tons or tutoring. Lifegain can be relevant and 1 life per staff activation isnt great.

I do like stax control if you can poop out prison pieces early, for sure. I know you say you dobt have a team to test with, and if you lived on long island id be happy to help, but proxying common and especially bad matches and running vs them helps a lot, evem vs yourself. I play 1 rd vs delver and 1 rd vs either lands or dd combo every morning with mud to keep myself sharp vs annoying common matches. I may also proxy d and t, as i have found it occasionally tricky on the draw.

Would you consider one fewer card, perhaps a city, for an inventors fair. Its a busted card bc of the tutor effect and the incidental lifegain seems relevant.

malfie13
10-26-2017, 08:36 AM
For the sake, ive reverted to 2 ugin mb, and moved the spine to sb. Spine is much better when youve got 3 to 4 forgemasters mb and see them every game. I kinda. wanna jam a hellkite mb, too. Dunno what im moving for it other than maybe trinisphere, but three ball tends to win games.

Sundering titan can be the nuts. If your opponent is more than one color, and isnt lands anyway. It is a cunky monkey, anyway. Stays in evem vs d and t. Nice 4c deck, dude. Gotta deathrite on board? Keen. Ya gots no lands.

sco0ter
10-26-2017, 09:14 AM
I play 1 rd vs delver and 1 rd vs either lands or dd combo every morning with mud to keep myself sharp vs annoying common matches.

WTF. I can't believe. Where do you take all this time from?

malfie13
10-27-2017, 10:44 AM
Helps to work nights. I also sometimes vs myself using my modern dredge deck vs eldrazi and death shadow, which the also the worst and the most common matches for me with dredge.

Silverflame
10-27-2017, 03:13 PM
Malfie13 how has Sorcerous Spyglass fared for you?

AmokPL
10-28-2017, 07:19 AM
Wouldn't maindeck Spheres of Resistance be overall better than Thorns?

GradStudent
10-28-2017, 12:54 PM
For the sake, ive reverted to 2 ugin mb, and moved the spine to sb. Spine is much better when youve got 3 to 4 forgemasters mb and see them every game. I kinda. wanna jam a hellkite mb, too. Dunno what im moving for it other than maybe trinisphere, but three ball tends to win games.

Sundering titan can be the nuts. If your opponent is more than one color, and isnt lands anyway. It is a cunky monkey, anyway. Stays in evem vs d and t. Nice 4c deck, dude. Gotta deathrite on board? Keen. Ya gots no lands.

So whats your updated list now? +1 ugin, -1 all is dust? Spine to SB ?

malfie13
10-28-2017, 09:57 PM
Wouldn't maindeck Spheres of Resistance be overall better than Thorns?

Absolutely not. T1 thorn, t2 lodestone is markedly better than sphere vs anything but dt and elves

malfie13
10-28-2017, 10:00 PM
Malfie13 how has Sorcerous Spyglass fared for you?

Im going to be 100pct honest. I only hit it twice all weekend, and i had a pretty solid idea of what to name already. Lol. Once was vs lands, and the other vs a sneak and show player during the trials, who was my loss that day. Won both games, but it was just a needle that went through a chalice. I kinda wanna work them ib mb, but other than 1x trinisphere i have no clue what id cut.

malfie13
10-28-2017, 10:03 PM
So whats your updated list now? +1 ugin, -1 all is dust? Spine to SB ?

Spine and all is dust to side, 2x all is dust in side. Cut the third wurmcoil from the sb. Also for any heavy comp play id probably suggest stucking a tormod crypt in your board. I like three macabre, however they can be needled and it can cost you games

Stuart
10-29-2017, 09:50 PM
MUD top 4’d a Classic this weekend (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=117013). Maybe the deck’s not as poorly positioned as I thought...

Quick takeaways:
- Mox Diamond
- Darksteel Citadel
- No Posts
- Sweltering Suns?!? That can’t be right

DNSolver
10-29-2017, 10:31 PM
Here's an interesting list:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=117027

Can someone on this thread tell me if I'm missing something for how this deck wins G1? The only way I have found is a lengthy process:

1) Play lock pieces to buy time (Bridge, chalice, 3ball)
2) Use an Inventor's Fair to tutor up Staff of Domination + Metalworker
3) Use Buried Ruin to make sure these things resolve
4) Go infinite and draw cards to a full hand size.
5) Use your card advantage to keep ticking up Smokestacks and killing all your opponent's permanents and get 3ball out so the opponent can't play anything.
6) Attack opponent to death with Metalworkers once they literally cannot play anything other than 1 land a turn that gets eaten by smokestack on their upkeep.

Hanni
10-29-2017, 10:43 PM
Here's an interesting list:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=117027

Can someone on this thread tell me if I'm missing something for how this deck wins G1? The only way I have found is a lengthy process:

1) Play lock pieces to buy time (Bridge, chalice, 3ball)
2) Use an Inventor's Fair to tutor up Staff of Domination + Metalworker
3) Use Buried Ruin to make sure these things resolve
4) Go infinite and draw cards to a full hand size.
5) Use your card advantage to keep ticking up Smokestacks and killing all your opponent's permanents and get 3ball out so the opponent can't play anything.
6) Attack opponent to death with Metalworkers once they literally cannot play anything other than 1 land a turn that gets eaten by smokestack on their upkeep.

When he has beaten me, it's because I scoop after he has the lock in place (Trinisphere, Smokestack on 1, and Crucible). I've seen him win with Metalworker beats more often than I've seen him win with Staff of Domination.

malfie13
10-31-2017, 06:05 AM
Here's an interesting list:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=117027

Can someone on this thread tell me if I'm missing something for how this deck wins G1? The only way I have found is a lengthy process:

1) Play lock pieces to buy time (Bridge, chalice, 3ball)
2) Use an Inventor's Fair to tutor up Staff of Domination + Metalworker
3) Use Buried Ruin to make sure these things resolve
4) Go infinite and draw cards to a full hand size.
5) Use your card advantage to keep ticking up Smokestacks and killing all your opponent's permanents and get 3ball out so the opponent can't play anything.
6) Attack opponent to death with Metalworkers once they literally cannot play anything other than 1 land a turn that gets eaten by smokestack on their upkeep.

This deck looks super tedious to win with. I mean it shoul optimally run a serious win con g1, such as ballista or even a man land or two mb. You can generate mana, tap down a board and coninutally swing with a god's eye spirit. Anything, really. I dunno. I had a game vs a deck like this when I was in GB pox during teh dig through omnishow period, and I hated that game. We went 0-0-1 in the 3-0 bracket. It was mind numbing. I had cast worm harvest like 5 times, and had 31 1/1/ wurms on board, but couldn't find two abrupt decays for bridges to swing lethal.

malfie13
10-31-2017, 06:06 AM
MUD top 4’d a Classic this weekend (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=117013). Maybe the deck’s not as poorly positioned as I thought...

Quick takeaways:
- Mox Diamond
- Darksteel Citadel
- No Posts
- Sweltering Suns?!? That can’t be right

That's awesome! Wow! Maybe we can get some traction. Hopefully not too, too much, tho. Lol. :tongue::tongue: Love Razormane Manticore. It and Hangarback are constantly on the cusp of my sb. I also like Myr Battleshpere. One day the myrs are gonna roll some fool. Lol.

Stuart
11-03-2017, 09:46 AM
With EW out of the way I'm back to testing jank, so last night I played MUD with 3 maindeck Spyglass. Went 1-3 and wasn't that impressed with Spyglass. It won me a match against Maverick by shutting off Wasteland, but in my other 3 matches it was air. I found myself casting it turn 1, shutting off a fetch, and then not capitalizing on that momentum. I think I'll be moving them into the board for Wasteland matchups.

Of course, I also went 1-3 because this deck is so fucking inconsistent :laugh:. 2 of my losses were to new Miracles, thanks to me mulling to 5 and not drawing lands / flooding out.

Please, Wizards, just print Cloudpost 5-8.

MGB
11-03-2017, 06:11 PM
With EW out of the way I'm back to testing jank, so last night I played MUD with 3 maindeck Spyglass. Went 1-3 and wasn't that impressed with Spyglass. It won me a match against Maverick by shutting off Wasteland, but in my other 3 matches it was air. I found myself casting it turn 1, shutting off a fetch, and then not capitalizing on that momentum. I think I'll be moving them into the board for Wasteland matchups.

Of course, I also went 1-3 because this deck is so fucking inconsistent :laugh:. 2 of my losses were to new Miracles, thanks to me mulling to 5 and not drawing lands / flooding out.

Please, Wizards, just print Cloudpost 5-8.

It's called Vesuva... and Thespian's Stage. =)

sco0ter
11-03-2017, 06:32 PM
Here's an interesting list:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=117027

Can someone on this thread tell me if I'm missing something for how this deck wins G1? The only way I have found is a lengthy process:

1) Play lock pieces to buy time (Bridge, chalice, 3ball)
2) Use an Inventor's Fair to tutor up Staff of Domination + Metalworker
3) Use Buried Ruin to make sure these things resolve
4) Go infinite and draw cards to a full hand size.
5) Use your card advantage to keep ticking up Smokestacks and killing all your opponent's permanents and get 3ball out so the opponent can't play anything.
6) Attack opponent to death with Metalworkers once they literally cannot play anything other than 1 land a turn that gets eaten by smokestack on their upkeep.

The author of this list stated (https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/7a06ay/16th_at_scg_dc_with_metalworker_stax/dp6icvz/?st=j9kgvwp2&sh=0fb4c56c):



Golem plays a lot better with Sphere of Resistance than Trinisphere, which in turn leads you to play a higher land count to play through Sphere tax.


So the question to you all, but especially malfie13:

When Lodestone Golem, then prefer Sphere of Resistance instead of Trinisphere?

malfie's list played Golem AND 3sphere however.

Is Resistance only good in control shells, due to higher land count?

Are there any general rules, when to play which sphere?

Edit: He also states, that Metalworker and Lodestone Golem should not be paired together, because they "pull you in opposite directions in many ways".
What's your thoughts? malfies list also included both.

Silverflame
11-03-2017, 07:52 PM
The author of this list stated (https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/7a06ay/16th_at_scg_dc_with_metalworker_stax/dp6icvz/?st=j9kgvwp2&sh=0fb4c56c):



So the question to you all, but especially malfie13:

When Lodestone Golem, then prefer Sphere of Resistance instead of Trinisphere?

malfie's list played Golem AND 3sphere however.

Is Resistance only good in control shells, due to higher land count?

Are there any general rules, when to play which sphere?

Edit: He also states, that Metalworker and Lodestone Golem should not be paired together, because they "pull you in opposite directions in many ways".
What's your thoughts? malfies list also included both.

I believe OP was stating his opinion on MUD stax builds, that are less mana hungry and lock opponents on a different way. vanilla MUD plays metalworkers, lodestone and 3balls together.
My problem with spheres is that you use monoliths and workers to guarantee you have mana if you get wasted. Its easy to lock yourself out if your opponent get rid of your sources. Usually trinisphere and thorn hurts us less, so I guess they are less risky to play.

Silverflame
11-21-2017, 02:42 PM
So this came up


http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/135/117/636468099311045149.png

Stuart
11-21-2017, 02:59 PM
Immortal Sun

It's pretty spicy, and seems worth trying if you were playing Staff of Nin. However, Ugin is one of the best things MUD can do, and this shuts him off.

Silverflame
11-23-2017, 11:22 AM
It's pretty spicy, and seems worth trying if you were playing Staff of Nin. However, Ugin is one of the best things MUD can do, and this shuts him off.

I believe its worth testing. We have 1-3 non-tutorable Ugins that can be cast if opponent destroys this, the extra draws are always relevant, the creature bonus takes lodesotne and wurm tokens out of bolt range and mw from wail and sudden shock range. The pw ability gives an edge against jund and miracles (I would say pox too, but if you have 6 mana against pox, odds are you are already winning).
It doesn't look stellar, but I agree its at least a direct improvement to Staff of Nin. I'll probably try cutting a coercive portal for this.

shallowend
11-24-2017, 08:05 AM
Worth testing but apart from the howling mine effect I worry it isn't doing anything we want. Our creatures are already the biggest, our spells are mainly even casting costs to line up with our mana production and ugin is probably the single most powerful card frequently cast for its full cost in the format.

I am also a fan of nins ping ability

Sent from my F3111 using Tapatalk

Mosesthecoot
12-04-2017, 11:08 AM
So, I know you've done your due diligence and you kicked ass at this tournament, but your numbers confuse me. I can see Wasteland being cut due to it slowing you down in your own mana production; however, why only run 2 Monolith in that case? Three Chalice? Chalice on turn 1 HAS to be your #1 goal in a prison/stompy build, am I wrong? I do understand that on the play, it's much less desirable but on the play, I've got to imagine you want the highest probability of drawing Sol Land plus Chalice.

Petrified Field has to be coming out, right? I love the spice and the card but there has to be better utility lands? Even a second Stage if not another Fair. I feel dirty taking out the Wastelands but I can certainly see the merit.

Ghirapur Orrey: How often is this not helping your opp.? I get the synergy with Cloister (another pet card of mine) but drawing 2 one-ofs seems like a dream.

I also understand your 2 Forgemasters, unlike potentially many other people. I actually just built a Forgemaster-less version with 4 Wurms and 4 Ballista, cutting all the 1-ofs like Emperion, Titan, Blightsteel.. and put them all in the board (with the masters) for a transmorgative SB. I'm also not afraid of spice so I'm trying FOUR Sun Droplets I hope I didn't lose you there. It's a venerable wall of lifegain and you can even gain life off your tombs if you have 3 in play heh.

Wish I wasn't just dropping a lot of questions on you. Seems unfair not being able to have a conversation but I would appreciate your input and 'grats again on the finish!

malfie13
12-15-2017, 09:06 AM
Hi, guys. Been a hot minute. I will answer those questions in a second, but i wanted to share what i was thinking about bringing to a local gp tomorrow, for side events.

Deck: Legacy MUD 12-16-17.dec

Counts : 61 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:16
1 Walking Ballista
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus

Spells:21
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Grim Monolith
1 Lightning Greaves
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Mirage Mirror
2 Staff of Domination
3 Trinisphere
1 Bottled Cloister
1 Ghirapur Orrery
1 Karn Liberated
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Lands:24
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Buried Ruin
1 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Inventors' Fair
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Thespian's Stage
3 Vesuva

Sideboard:15
1 Walking Ballista
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Duplicant
1 Platinum Angel
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Orbs of Warding
2 All Is Dust

Some of the changes are going to be odd, some will be more obvious. The petrified field has been the oddest land out in an open meta. If i thought wasteland were endemic i would still run it. Instead of it and one cavern, i am going to run 2 factories, which are solid blockers and allow another avenue for t2 combo. Also trying out mb a mirage mirror. While i have been drawing my deck as my most often win con, it feels like too much value to be ignored. It can mimic a prison piece on an opponent's turn, or a threat on mine. Don't know if it is correct, but we are going to try it. Also would be hilarious to copy a gisselbrand. Wanna see it happen at least once.

Sb choices: put the 2nd ballista in the sb, because d and t exists. And so does infect. And elves. Etc. Duplicant is another clean answer to show and tell, and can remove any creature based threats. Ive seen a bunch of creature based decks, as well as 4c leo on the rise, obv. So i am going to also try out o stone. Its a cheaper, faster wipe than either all is dust or ugin. See what happens.

Thoughts? I havent played comp legacy in a few months. Any odd shifts in the meta lately?

malfie13
12-15-2017, 09:20 AM
1) In regards to sphere effects, they are all there for specific things. T1 is always thorn, vs most decks, t2 is always golem. T1 thorn cascades issues for opponents. Think about the many t1s it shuts down. T1 mox diamond is slower. T1 ponder, perordain or bs is off. All the t1s are slower. Lodestone plus thorn is game ending vs anything not named death and taxes.

2)sphere of resistence came in vs nothing but creature combo, as i am pre boarded vs non creature combo. Id rather run boardwipes vs creature decks.

3) I love staff of nin, and it has tested well. Its a better mine effect than coercive portal, but worse than cloister, or orrery. I had to cut something for the mirage mirror, tho. I dont know if that is correct, but i am also running 2 staff, so in an attrition battle i dont have a shortage of draw power, and vs leovold decks im not stuck with a 6 drop timmie that draws my opponents cards and blows up a strix.

5) That immortal sun card is spicey, but who slams a better walker than ugin or karn unless dack faden? Lol. I mean, if nic fit is endemic in your lgs, go for it. In an open meta, its too cute.

6) Ive got my wastelands always ready, but the loss of tempo has never been good. Whenever ive tried, ive gotten blown out for trying. There are just better answers vs any deck than wasting them. Except the best waste effect ever, sundering titan.

I hope that the updates to my list translate well. I got hit by d and t a few times bc they just played a t1 or 2 vial amd wasted or poted me into oblivion, at least g1. Thats another reason i cut down on a thorn, at least for now. Im going to try to work thorn 4 back into the board. I just dont like sphere of resistance. I make a lot of mana, but until its infinite, taxing myself can also cost games.

malfie13
12-15-2017, 02:35 PM
Someone talked me outta the mirror, so its likely to go back to being either thorn or chalice 4

malfie13
12-20-2017, 09:10 AM
I'll make a quick GP report: I had some personal issues that morning that put me on Full Tilt, and I played like Snot. Not that I didn't play some good players, and didn't learn anything about the game, but I definitely could have played smoother better and not made some of the mistakes I made had I not been on tilt. Next time.

Silverflame
12-22-2017, 12:32 PM
I'll make a quick GP report: I had some personal issues that morning that put me on Full Tilt, and I played like Snot. Not that I didn't play some good players, and didn't learn anything about the game, but I definitely could have played smoother better and not made some of the mistakes I made had I not been on tilt. Next time.

It happens, you'll have a better result next time.
About mirror, I was testing it with good results online, but when I tested on paper, I played twice in a tournament against Sneak and Show and could'nt get it to work, so I dropped it too.

Troll_ov_Grimness
12-27-2017, 11:15 PM
Hello everyone! It's been a long time since I've rocked this deck, I had tried playing Eldrazi for a long while but have come to dislike it. I decided to pick up the old metalworker deck again last night and enjoy playing it much more. Out of 4 matches I won 2 and tied a game which at least got my entry fee back. I still think it is a very powerful deck.

One new card that has come out for it I am interested in playing is Inventor's Fair

but I don't know what lands to cut for it

My mana base right now is,

4 Ancient Tomb

3 City Of Traitors

3 Vesuva

4 Cloudpost

4 Glimmerpost

3 Cavern of Souls

3 Wasteland

I'd like some suggestions of what to cut

The best card to cut I think might be a wasteland? or a vesuva...

ESG
12-28-2017, 04:48 AM
I'd like some suggestions of what to cut

The best card to cut I think might be a wasteland? or a vesuva...

Inventors' Fair is really nice with singletons. I assume you're playing a Crucible of Worlds? If so, I'd keep the Wasteland because that combo is so strong. The third Vesuva can be awkward. Multiple Vesuvas in an opening hand are usually terrible unless you have a Cloudpost (or when your first land gets hit by an opposing Wasteland), so I would trim a Vesuva.

Alex_UNLIMITED
12-28-2017, 05:11 AM
MUD top 4’d a Classic this weekend (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=117013). Maybe the deck’s not as poorly positioned as I thought...

Quick takeaways:
- Mox Diamond
- Darksteel Citadel
- No Posts
- Sweltering Suns?!? That can’t be right

I talked to the player who made top 4 and he thinks that instead of Sweltering Suns there was a Sundering Titan.

Stuart
12-28-2017, 10:34 AM
Inventors' Fair is really nice with singletons. I assume you're playing a Crucible of Worlds? If so, I'd keep the Wasteland because that combo is so strong. The third Vesuva can be awkward. Multiple Vesuvas in an opening hand are usually terrible unless you have a Cloudpost (or when your first land gets hit by an opposing Wasteland), so I would trim a Vesuva.

Agreed, though going down to 2 Caverns is also an option. Depends on your meta. Either way, agreed on Fair - it's a perfect singleton for this deck.

Troll_ov_Grimness
12-28-2017, 01:52 PM
Inventors' Fair is really nice with singletons. I assume you're playing a Crucible of Worlds? If so, I'd keep the Wasteland because that combo is so strong. The third Vesuva can be awkward. Multiple Vesuvas in an opening hand are usually terrible unless you have a Cloudpost (or when your first land gets hit by an opposing Wasteland), so I would trim a Vesuva.

My deck list and sideboard, besides my mana base that I already posted,

4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Staff Of Domination
1 Staff Of Nin
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Spine of Ish Sah
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
2 Ugin the Spirit Dragon

Sideboard,

4 Leyline of the Void
1 All is Dust
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
2 Duplicant
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Serrated Arrows
1 Tsabo's Web

*****

The Cavern of Souls is really important I want to stay with 3

I was thinking of cutting, Spine of Ish Sah (maybe move it to the sideboard), Trinisphere, Vesuva, or Wasteland

1ron
12-30-2017, 06:28 AM
I'm certainly going to try mirror as a 2-of at my tournament tomorrow. It seems cute but I'm not quite sold on it.

I'll let you guys know how I do. :)

Edit: 2-2

Match 1 - Burn.
He pretty much blew me out every game. Sulfuric vortex is a hell of a card.

Match 2 - Moon Stompy.
Easy 2-0. Pre-board I got down 2 thorns and a Lodestone before he resolved his first Magus. Game 2 was grindy but I pulled it out.

Match 3 - Maverick.
2-1. Not a great matchup because of qasali pridemage, but after getting flooded in the third game, I resolved a blightsteel, equipped greaves and swung for the game.

Match 4 - Show and Tell.
2-1. Game 1 was a pretty easy lock. Post-board I had mulligans to 5 each game and got blown out by turn 1 show and tells.


I only got to see the mirror once and it didn't seem stellar, but I want to keep trying it in playtests at the very least.

Silverflame
01-03-2018, 10:22 AM
another sideboard option:

http://mythicspoiler.com/rix/cards/silentgravestone.jpg

Troll_ov_Grimness
01-03-2018, 11:11 AM
I'm missing something why is Silent Gravestone good? Are there cards you want with shroud in your graveyard? It also costs 1 and gets hosed by Chalice of the Void

Buried Ruin? Scarecrone? Goblin Welder? These are cards I haven't seen played in MUD for a long time

Silverflame
01-03-2018, 11:54 AM
I'm missing something why is Silent Gravestone good? Are there cards you want with shroud in your graveyard? It also costs 1 and gets hosed by Chalice of the Void

Buried Ruin? Scarecrone? Goblin Welder? These are cards I haven't seen played in MUD for a long time

It's a sideboard option against reanimator, deathrite shaman, snapcaster mage, life from the loam and other shenanigans. It's also better than Grafdigger's cage as it doesn't hurt our kuldothas.

Ganfar
01-05-2018, 08:02 AM
What you think about this card?

http://mythicspoiler.com/rix/cards/azorsgateway.jpg

One of the issue with MUD is consistency and this can help to fix our draws.

The other side is good but I think it will be hard to transformit.

Silverflame
01-05-2018, 11:38 AM
What you think about this card?

http://mythicspoiler.com/rix/cards/azorsgateway.jpg

One of the issue with MUD is consistency and this can help to fix our draws.

The other side is good but I think it will be hard to transformit.

I like the card, mostly for the looting, but the inevitability is nice. although MUD have a lot of different CMC, I'm not sure how we could use it to its maximum potential, yet. Worst case scenario, it's a must answer to eat a removal instead of our bigger things.

Barachai
01-05-2018, 12:09 PM
What you think about this card?

http://mythicspoiler.com/rix/cards/azorsgateway.jpg

One of the issue with MUD is consistency and this can help to fix our draws.

The other side is good but I think it will be hard to transformit.

Looting is nice, however I doubt we'd be looting away cards at a variety of CmCs, since we'd be generally be looking for action. Also if I'm looking for a solid early play I can sink mana into, I'd play more ballista.

Troll_ov_Grimness
01-05-2018, 05:39 PM
What you think about this card?

http://mythicspoiler.com/rix/cards/azorsgateway.jpg

One of the issue with MUD is consistency and this can help to fix our draws.

The other side is good but I think it will be hard to transformit.

It's not playable. And the transformed land isn't particularly great unless you want to kill someone with Magma Mine or something

We need to get the Forgemaster combo assembles while racing Delver and tapping Ancient Tomb at the same time AND fight cards through Force Of Will.

If you want to draw cards for cheap there is Coercive Portal if you don't want to play Staff Of Nin. With cloud posts mana reaching 6 mana to cast Staff Of Nin isn't that difficult.

Another card draw engine I have tried without the Forgemaster Combo in there is Phyrexian Portal. You exile 10 cards from your library and then pick either of two piles, which gives you 5 cards to look through. Your opponent should always split the piles evenly when given the option otherwise just pick the biggest pile for the most card selection. It's kind of insane

Silverflame
01-08-2018, 12:49 PM
It's not playable. And the transformed land isn't particularly great unless you want to kill someone with Magma Mine or something

We need to get the Forgemaster combo assembles while racing Delver and tapping Ancient Tomb at the same time AND fight cards through Force Of Will.

If you want to draw cards for cheap there is Coercive Portal if you don't want to play Staff Of Nin. With cloud posts mana reaching 6 mana to cast Staff Of Nin isn't that difficult.

Another card draw engine I have tried without the Forgemaster Combo in there is Phyrexian Portal. You exile 10 cards from your library and then pick either of two piles, which gives you 5 cards to look through. Your opponent should always split the piles evenly when given the option otherwise just pick the biggest pile for the most card selection. It's kind of insane

Magma mine is bad, go for ballista instead.

Troll_ov_Grimness
01-08-2018, 01:48 PM
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/883700

MUD took 3rd place at the latest SCG Classic in Columbus :smile:

Stuart
01-08-2018, 04:44 PM
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/883700

MUD took 3rd place at the latest SCG Classic in Columbus :smile:

Fuck yeah. It makes me genuinely happy to see MUD doing well lately. Some quick thoughts:
- I like that he's switched his 3rd Trinisphere for a Spyglass.
- Blightsteel has been a constant in recent lists. I haven't run the big boy for a while, because I felt like the other tinker bots did the job better, but maybe I should add him back in.
- No Ballistas.

Troll_ov_Grimness
01-08-2018, 06:19 PM
I’ve been thinking of moving spine to the board and might do that now for a spyglass

What I really strongly disagree with is not cutting a vesuva or something for an inventors fair

malfie13
01-08-2018, 10:28 PM
Another top metalworker combo player made tp 4 at scg classic this weekend!

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=118077

Woowoo!

BlackHawkX9
01-13-2018, 10:11 AM
Another top metalworker combo player made tp 4 at scg classic this weekend!

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=118077

Woowoo!

This was a great tournament for me. And here are my match notes to go with it.

Match notes from SCG Columbus
Rd 1 sneak and show
G1- I stuck a trinisphere, which bought me a few turns. He show and telled. His griselbrand and I stuck forgemaster. He hit me to 5, then I stuck emperion double tombing me to 1. Emperion beats win the game.
G2- turn 1 boots, turn 2 metalworker, wurmcoil, portal, move boots, bash. Turn 3, lodestone, move boots bash, turn 4 2nd lodestone, boots, bash all.

Rd2 elves 2-1
G1- my turn 2, his turn 3 natural order hoof destroyed me.
G2- warping wail exiled heritage druid, stalled him for me to turn 4 ugin, wins.
G3- turn 1 chalice on 1, turn 2 metalworker, turn 3 forgemaster, boots, blightsteel kill, because he kept back no blockers.

Rd3 Dnt 0-2
G1- got out a turn 3 wurmcoil, he dropped double revoker locking down my 2x metalworker and 2x monolith, never got above 2 lands because of his wastelands. Stoneforge got batterskull, the equipped it to flickerwisp. Lots of life swings, lost the race.
G2- mana denial and mana screwed draws.

Rd4 burn
G1- forgemaster into platinum emperion couldn't be beat.
G2-turn 1 post, turn 2 post,chalice on 1, turn 3 post, worker, boots, wurmcoil, move boots, couldn't race wurmcoil.

Rd5 omni- sneak and show
G1- sneak attack put emrakul out, wiped my board. I got tomb, tomb, lodestone, tried clocking him. Got in twice, then he intuitioned for emrakul, to end it.
G2- turn 1 tomb boots, turn 2 worker, forgemaster, blightsteel kill.
G3- spyglass naming sneak attack, he played turn 2 bloodmoon. I played turn 2 thorn of amethyst. I Didn't miss a land drop, forgemaster into blightsteel before he found sneak with emrakul in hand.

Rd6 4color delver. (didn't show green until game 3)
G1- he perfect tempo grixis delver style tempo'd me out.
G2- baited counter with chalice, and kill spells with 2 lodestones, then metalworker staff combo.
G3- spyglass on wasteland, thorn slowed him down, forgemaster, monlith. He widdled me down to 2 with zombie fish and a flipped delver. Drop batterskull, and equip to forgemaster. He drops 2 more delvers, and a young pyro, going hellbent. He doesn't block, at all and try's to race me with 3 flipped delvers for a few turns, dropping him to 2. He swings all 3 flipped delvers, leaving open in the air, and me at 6. So I forgemaster up steel hellkite, at the end of his turn, for the kill.

Rd7 maverick 2-1
G1- he starts with noble hierarch forest, I start with tomb, monolith, turn 2 he casted a knight of the reliquary, my turn 2 is, city of traitors, 2nd monolith, ugin, and he couldn't recover.
G2- he used knight of the reliquary to get all the wastelands, then beat me out.
G3- I turn 1 spyglass, intending to name wasteland, but I see he has a slow hand, no wastelands, and 2 qasali pridemages, so I name the pridemage. I drop boots and ratchet bomb, tick it up to 1. He green sun zenith for gaddock teeg. . tick bomb up to 2. Pass. He swings, plays knight of reliquary and passes back. I drop metalworker, move boots, make mana, blow ratchet to kill teeg and lose my boots, drop ugin, and take over the game.

Rd8 intentionally draw with the eldrazi post guy that I beat in top 8. Didn't know what he was on yet.

Top 8 post eldrazi 2-0
G1- tomb, monolith, boots, city, forgemaster another artifact turn 3 blighteel kill.
G2- he mulled to 5, and I kept a fragile explosive hand. Turn 1 he played post, I played tomb, boots. His turn 2 was glimmer, monolith, into coercive portal, my turn 2 was metalworker under boots, 10 mana, coercive portal, wurmcoil, move boots, bash 6. Then his turn 3 was cast endbringer. My turn 3 was metalwork 12 mana, blight steel move boots, trample over end ringer, at 6 infect and hit with wurm. Then his play was play oblivion sower, get 2 of my post lands of the top pass. Then I made more worker mana, played batterskull, suited up to blightsteel, put boots back, and trample over oblivion sower with a 15/15 trample infect, indestructible, lifelink, vigilance, shroud, haste blightsteel. 😁

Top 4 RG lands 1-2
G1- I played spyglass on stage to stop the fast kill, he loamed wastelands a few times, I managed to stick a grim monolith, he wasted my last land, I drew a chalice, played a land and chaliced on 2. We sat there playing draw, play land go for about 15 turns a piece while I built up my mana base again. I vesuva'd wastelands to always have 1 to kill dark depths. I then had to stick 2 lodestones and a wurm coil to get past his 2 maze of ith, after waiting out a glacial chasm.
G2- he is on full tilt after game 1. I kept a slow ish hand, and he got the turn 3 raw dawg into stage depths.
G3- I double spyglass, 1 on wasteland and and the other on stage, based on his hand. I got a thorn, sphere of resistance and lodestone out, he had maze to slow my clock. He paid all the taxes to double punishing fire my lodestone. I got a forgemaster out, and he started hard way removing counters from depths. I can make 25 mana by this point of the game. And I have another lodestone, and a sundering titan swinging to pace his maze. He cracks depths to make a token, before blocks I forgemaster up a staff of domination and tap down token, continue my twiddling his life. He draws a krosan grip kills staff, and token kills me. He was 1 last turn away from me getting him. . . I'm friends with dedicated lands players, so I knew it was k-grip coming, but I never saw a chalice game 3. Epic last game. But he was so tilted, so hard.

Take away notes from the day, based on my games and a few other MUD players that I observed during the day.

-when trinisphere is good it's good, if you go on the taxing plan. But when it's not good, it's really bad. I boarded them out alot, and watched multiple other MUD players get locked out under their own trinisphere. 1 was against a miracles list that showed main deck back to basics, and the others were opponents with all the wastelands.
-thorn of amethyst was awesome in every match it came in. Bought me so much time vs show and tell decks, where trinisphere did nothing.
-spyglass was amazing all day. I had more things to name than I had spyglass's vs lands. Naming sneak attack saved my ass, naming wasteland in multiple matches bought me so much land safety to go big. And even vs maverick, seeing the double pridmage, and no wasteland, turn 1 let me scout the hate and shut it down.
-life gain from wurmcoil bought me so much time, to firmly reaffirm my love for wurmcoil. And even my batterskull the I view as effectively my wurmcoil 5 did work out the ass.
-coercive portal got me a few extra cards in board stalls, but I had alot of really fast plays. So, portal didn't really shine here

Airwave
01-13-2018, 03:07 PM
Match notes


Congatulations on the great finish and thanks for the report. Lots of fast boots+blightsteel kills, nice! :cool:

Would you change your list if you were to play again?

What I noticed from your report and also noticed during my own games: Sundering Titan looks great on paper but hardly ever plays a role in the game since you almost never tutor for it. You're going for the kill with Blightsteel, get Steel Hellkite for evasion-kill/destroys and tutor for Platinum as a rescue piece. So I'm wondering: Is Sundering Titan still needed mainboard or could it be put in side against color-greedy decks only (or even taken out of the 75 at all).

Nice to see that Spyglass worked out, I have high hopes for this card, still waiting to live the dream and see a turn 1 hand with three fetchlands with the same name.... :smile:

malfie13
01-13-2018, 11:02 PM
Congatulations on the great finish and thanks for the report. Lots of fast boots+blightsteel kills, nice! :cool:

Would you change your list if you were to play again?

What I noticed from your report and also noticed during my own games: Sundering Titan looks great on paper but hardly ever plays a role in the game since you almost never tutor for it. You're going for the kill with Blightsteel, get Steel Hellkite for evasion-kill/destroys and tutor for Platinum as a rescue piece. So I'm wondering: Is Sundering Titan still needed mainboard or could it be put in side against color-greedy decks only (or even taken out of the 75 at all).

Nice to see that Spyglass worked out, I have high hopes for this card, still waiting to live the dream and see a turn 1 hand with three fetchlands with the same name.... :smile:

I agree. I feel like titan is either spectacular or just meh. Sometimes i feel like hellkite is a better value impact to the board

shallowend
01-14-2018, 06:17 AM
Congatulations on the great finish and thanks for the report. Lots of fast boots+blightsteel kills, nice! :cool:

Would you change your list if you were to play again?

What I noticed from your report and also noticed during my own games: Sundering Titan looks great on paper but hardly ever plays a role in the game since you almost never tutor for it. You're going for the kill with Blightsteel, get Steel Hellkite for evasion-kill/destroys and tutor for Platinum as a rescue piece. So I'm wondering: Is Sundering Titan still needed mainboard or could it be put in side against color-greedy decks only (or even taken out of the 75 at all).

Nice to see that Spyglass worked out, I have high hopes for this card, still waiting to live the dream and see a turn 1 hand with three fetchlands with the same name.... [emoji2]Completely agree. Have not been playing titan for a year

Sent from my F3111 using Tapatalk

BlackHawkX9
01-14-2018, 07:16 AM
Completely agree. Have not been playing titan for a year

Sent from my F3111 using Tapatalk

I kind of agree. Most of the time when I forgemaster, I'd rather get something else. Typically sundering titan wiping lands doesn't seem to catch you back up in these games were they only need 2 lands to run anyway, and DRS giving them all the mana fixing the field needs. I think the right call is to drop sundering titan.

1ron
01-15-2018, 01:10 AM
I kind of agree. Most of the time when I forgemaster, I'd rather get something else. Typically sundering titan wiping lands doesn't seem to catch you back up in these games were they only need 2 lands to run anyway, and DRS giving them all the mana fixing the field needs. I think the right call is to drop sundering titan.

What's your opinion on bottled cloister/ghirapur orrery?

BlackHawkX9
01-15-2018, 08:39 AM
What's your opinion on bottled cloister/ghirapur orrery?

Honestly, I severely dislike cloister and orrery now, way more than just playing coercive portal. Czech pile is a big bad wolf for us, packing k-command main deck, and abrade showing up in every red delver variant's sideboard. It's too easy for them, now more than ever, to blow you out of the water by blowing up cloister, stranding your hand exiled, or getting free cards and land drops from orrery, then blowing it up before you get to use it yourself. Also, coercive portal being 4cmc, vs cloister's 5 could make all the difference in those matches where you need the extra cards, to effectively efficiency race certain decks.

I think coercive portal is the best draw extra card per turn card for us. Then staff of nin. Then cloister. Then orrery.

Troll_ov_Grimness
01-15-2018, 07:38 PM
Honestly, I severely dislike cloister and orrery now, way more than just playing coercive portal. Czech pile is a big bad wolf for us, packing k-command main deck, and abrade showing up in every red delver variant's sideboard. It's too easy for them, now more than ever, to blow you out of the water by blowing up cloister, stranding your hand exiled, or getting free cards and land drops from orrery, then blowing it up before you get to use it yourself. Also, coercive portal being 4cmc, vs cloister's 5 could make all the difference in those matches where you need the extra cards, to effectively efficiency race certain decks.

I think coercive portal is the best draw extra card per turn card for us. Then staff of nin. Then cloister. Then orrery.

The ping ability of Staff Of Nin is extremely relevant to ping away Young Pyromancer and Baleful Strix

I think the Czech Pile matchup is actually really good, even without Staff Of Nin

Silverflame
01-15-2018, 08:12 PM
Honestly, I severely dislike cloister and orrery now, way more than just playing coercive portal. Czech pile is a big bad wolf for us, packing k-command main deck, and abrade showing up in every red delver variant's sideboard. It's too easy for them, now more than ever, to blow you out of the water by blowing up cloister, stranding your hand exiled, or getting free cards and land drops from orrery, then blowing it up before you get to use it yourself. Also, coercive portal being 4cmc, vs cloister's 5 could make all the difference in those matches where you need the extra cards, to effectively efficiency race certain decks.

I think coercive portal is the best draw extra card per turn card for us. Then staff of nin. Then cloister. Then orrery.

Small correction: cloister is also 4 cmc.

BlackHawkX9
01-15-2018, 08:51 PM
Small correction: cloister is also 4 cmc.

I stand corrected.

malfie13
01-15-2018, 09:18 PM
The only reason ive been considering shelving the orrery cloister combo is exactly leovold. Other than that its an insane draw engine plus tucking hand from being stripped. There are matches where siding either or both out is correct. In full disclosure this combo is kinda my brainchild so i have to stick up for it. Lol. I do wanna get a staff of nin in there, but other than either spine or titan i dunno what to remove. I kindsa wanna cut the titan for a steel hellkite. Dunno.

Airwave
01-16-2018, 03:37 AM
The only reason ive been considering shelving the orrery cloister combo is exactly leovold. Other than that its an insane draw engine plus tucking hand from being stripped. There are matches where siding either or both out is correct. In full disclosure this combo is kinda my brainchild so i have to stick up for it. Lol. I do wanna get a staff of nin in there, but other than either spine or titan i dunno what to remove. I kindsa wanna cut the titan for a steel hellkite. Dunno.

If you want a one-sided combo with cloister you could think about this card: Moonring Mirror, it's 5 instead of 4 so that's definitely a disadvantage but it works around leo.

Personally I like Cloister better than Coercive portal, because of the discard-protection and possible combi with Ensnaring Bridge, but it is more of a risk that's definitely true.

BlackHawkX9
01-16-2018, 06:01 AM
The only reason ive been considering shelving the orrery cloister combo is exactly leovold. Other than that its an insane draw engine plus tucking hand from being stripped. There are matches where siding either or both out is correct. In full disclosure this combo is kinda my brainchild so i have to stick up for it. Lol. I do wanna get a staff of nin in there, but other than either spine or titan i dunno what to remove. I kindsa wanna cut the titan for a steel hellkite. Dunno.

I can for sure vouch for steel hellkite. My area's meta is very fair magic flooded. Steel hellkite does serious work vs maverick, delvers, dnt, and pretty much all other fair decks. I've actually been considering possibly replacing my sundering titan with a second steel hellkite, that it's so good.

Stuart
01-16-2018, 11:54 AM
Interesting to hear that people are so down on Titan - he's consistently been my best tinker bot, and at times I've played 2. While the land destruction doesn't automatically catch you up, a 7/10 frequently does and it's an amazing proactive play. Likewise, he's much more castable than Blightsteel (though less-so than Hellkite, obviously).

Quick note on Czech: my experience with the matchup is limited, but it actually seems pretty solid for us. However, that probably depends a lot on whether you're running Ballista, Staff of Nin, or anything else that eats X/1s.

Barachai
01-16-2018, 12:10 PM
Quick note on Czech: my experience with the matchup is limited, but it actually seems pretty solid for us. However, that probably depends a lot on whether you're running Ballista, Staff of Nin, or anything else that eats X/1s.

I spent a while testing the matchup, found Cavern of Souls to be the dealbreaker here; otherwise, we die to the combo of Strix/Kommand + Force + Jace Fateseal on average.

malfie13
01-17-2018, 07:10 PM
In fairness i currently run 2x mb baristas and a buried ruin. I go back and forth bt one mb ballista and 2. I am really having a hard time choosing my non mana ramp lands for my next larger event. Obviously i run the compliment of posts, with a stage as the 12th, and 7 sol lands. Ive been running a buried ruin, an inventors fair, and a cavern. The question is now, two mishra factories, wastelands, or another cavern and another utility land. Maybe even a second inventors fair. Ive been testing with masticore, and its been great.

malfie13
01-17-2018, 07:11 PM
Thanks auto correct, barista should not be serving coffee, it should be infinitely pinging opponents to death.

malfie13
01-17-2018, 07:16 PM
Interesting to hear that people are so down on Titan -

Im actually not 100pct outta that camp. I still run him, as he wastes out greedy mana bases, often without the ability to rebuild, and he is a chunky monkey. Even vs a deck where he kills 2 lands on the and 2 on the way out, its still serious and eats most typical removal for lunch. Nice dismember or bolt, dude. Wanna kill it bad? That deluge is gonna sting.

RobNC
01-18-2018, 06:37 AM
Sundering Titan has always been a game winner for me, although I've never tutored for it. My Forgemaster targets are almost always Blightsteel to win the game or Emperion to not lose the game (and hopefully win shortly after).

BlackHawkX9
01-18-2018, 05:14 PM
Sundering Titan has always been a game winner for me, although I've never tutored for it. My Forgemaster targets are almost always Blightsteel to win the game or Emperion to not lose the game (and hopefully win shortly after).

I have forgemaster tutored for a sorcerous spyglass before in weird dire situations, to save my ass. It's not always
So cut and dry.

BlackHawkX9
01-25-2018, 05:24 AM
So, I was going over matchup notes and I was thinking that some of my matches could use a little more practice. Does anyone have any preferred strategies or special tech that helps you out in the grixis delver, dnt, and RG lands matches?

malfie13
01-25-2018, 07:35 AM
I have forgemaster tutored for a sorcerous spyglass before in weird dire situations, to save my ass. It's not always
So cut and dry.

Have to agree with that. Forgemaster has saved me so many times with platinum emperion, and also frequently just fetches a draw engine or spine of ish sah.

malfie13
01-25-2018, 08:05 AM
So, I was going over matchup notes and I was thinking that some of my matches could use a little more practice. Does anyone have any preferred strategies or special tech that helps you out in the grixis delver, dnt, and RG lands matches?

Well, you id'ed some of the weaker matches for g1, lol. Sb are strong in my case vs each, bc game 1 my strategy can be annoyingly disrupted. I have 2 spyglass, which are good in dt and lands, obviously. In lands case i also run 2x bridges, 2 fae, a tormod's crypt and also have a mb thespian's stage, which can be hilarious and won me my win and in at Pitt. My sb karn is also quite good. Some is play and draw dependant.

Vs dt, as i said, spyglass is also good and names more things. Bridge isn't hot, bc a lot of their creatures are 2x and smaller. Also, be careful if you run thorns. They don't get hit as hard as a lot of other decks. Further, their suite includes sanctum prelate which can hose fetching artifacts with specific casting costs. Some of the best tech include my mb and sb ballistae, all is dust becones a redundant and cheaper ugin as well. Of course it cant be fetched. Revoker is also mb for them, which is annoying. Diversity of fetching with both fair and forgemaster is super key. If you run caverns and arent ported unconsious, chalice on 3 can be pretty solid if youve spyglassed their vial. I mean, they run cavern too, which can also be a thing. I feel like it can be an odd match.

Grixis delver can be super tough on the draw depending on their build. Remember that daze is a card that they run. I default on the blind try to keep hands that are good vs delver and or storm and am usually rewarded. Thorn is good, in my mb, even though they can still play drs into tnn. That said, all their one drops cost 2 and all their free spells have mana costs, making it one of several must counters we have. Trinisphere is great, too, as is chalice. Some people sb warping wail for this match, which is fair. It exiles the majority of their deck, minus flipped delver. I tend to find that the incidental lifegain and draw of staff can be backbreaking. As can just tapping down their non tnn spells. Cavern is ok, but they run 4x wastelands. Be cautious about mb fetching with forgemaster and inventors fair as sac is oart of the costs, and some versions run stifle instead of cabal therapy. Building a head of steam and drawing a massive amount of cards will likely win the game. Resolved wurmcoil and or platinum emperion is super bad for them. Both eat minimum 2 removal spells. Either dismember and bolt or bolt bolt, for wurmcoil. Many times when i have emperion on board they take 1-2 draw steps and scoop. Bridge can be good sb, as we can then play into their counters and win a topdeck war. Resolving ugin becomes an instant win. Hes a chunky monkey. First use exiles their board which is all 3 or less, except angler . You have to assume sb ancient grudge at one to two of, and sometimes shattering spree or by force, god help us. Some also run winter orb, which can be super annoying even with bridge out. Spyglass stops them from drsing us behind the bridge, but can be a general feel bad, as that is all it hits. All is dust is super gross as it wipes out even angler. I sometimes cut down unexpected cards just to run 2 ugin and the 2 sb all is dust. I also run a mb crucible, which helps a lot. Lodestone can be a trap. It dies to most of thier removal, and metalworker dies to all of it. Greaves can win games, even without blightseel, as putting them on emperion costs way too many resources for them to logically catch up. Remember to manage your life total and that tnn can soak the damage from one wurm and doesnt die to your deathtouch. They also run minimum 5 burn spells, 4 bolt and a forked bolt, and simetimes run a 1x sb snapcaster i also often think about sbing in orbs of watding, which is really meant for storm, on the play vs grix to turn off their therapies, burn and pyro tokens. I find on the draw it can sometimes be slow.

malfie13
01-25-2018, 08:15 AM
Ps, if you're afraid of grixis delver, you should also be aware that ur prowess delver is a super annoying match, if you dont already know. They still get their triggers through a chalice, 2 is the more correct number to slam as it turns off their price of progress, and the majority of their creatures. Sadly it also hits thorn which is super good bc it makes their free spells cost mana, and there are a lot of them. Many of their spells also dont get hit by chalice at all. Fireblast, fow, and either one or 2 drops are going to get through, as is their devil. And their sbs are usually stacked with a lot of hate for artifacts, sometimes including hurkyls. Just remember to chalice on 2 unless you have sphere or thorn, then sphere thorn into chalice on two can be solid. Also remember that chalice on 2 turns off chalice on 1, so be careful. Someone told me that sphere plus chalice on 2 lets chalice on 1 through bc it has to cost 5 on the stack. Also chalice on 2 turns off daze. Also be careful thinking that a resolved empyrion or worm is an instant win, as they run often 1 to 2 main board Vapor snag. Also if youre on a wastleland plan, they run hella basics, and no wastelands of their own, bc of price.

BlackHawkX9
01-26-2018, 06:04 AM
.

Thanks for the extra info malfie. Do you have. Decklist to go with your experiences? . . Also, I really want to put in walking ballista's, but I can't seem to make room for them. Plus, the fact that they can't be grabbed with forgemaster really puts a ding in their appeal.

I want to get some practice and tech vs these 3 decks, because they seem to be the most played at the SCG team events, and I'm going to be the legacy player for my team for SCG Cincinnati.

Stuart
01-26-2018, 01:46 PM
So, I was going over matchup notes and I was thinking that some of my matches could use a little more practice. Does anyone have any preferred strategies or special tech that helps you out in the grixis delver, dnt, and RG lands matches?

Grixis Delver:
- I think this is pretty close to 50/50. Our plan is very effective against them, but they're waaaayyyy more consistent than us. In practice, that means that 1) it's easy for us to draw bad hands, 2) they're likely to draw shit that disrupts our plan, and 3) they're likely to draw things that are proactively good at beating us.
- Mana denial effects are probably your biggest priority, so look for hands that can make quick Chalices, Trinispheres, Lodetones, and Wastelands.
- I'd be wary of keeping hands with 2 lands or less, unless you've got something like a Metalworker in that hand. It's easy for Delver to Daze your first play and then Wasteland you, so land-lite hands are risky.
- It's virtually impossible for any Delver deck to beat a Wurmcoil.

DnT
- Arguably one of our worst matchups, but Ballista was a great printing. I know you mentioned being wary of Ballista because it isn't a Forgemaster target, but I'd still run it.
- If you play them, Spyglass and Revoker effects are excellent. Shutting of Vial is the biggest one IMO, but their deck is just made of activated abilities.
- Some people say otherwise, but postboard I'd cut your Chalices and Trinispheres. If they have a Vial going, taxing effects are relatively useless. They're also pretty short on 1 CMC spells - you're only gonna hit StP or, if you're on the play and lucky, Vial. And even if Chalice does temporarily stop those, Flickerwisp will eventually reset your Chalices to 0. Instead, I'd make sure you have a good mainboard & sideboard split of value/attrition cards. Good options that come to mind are Ratchet Bomb, Contagion Engine, Coercive Portal, Spyglass, Ballista, Ensnaring Bridge, Tsabo's Web, Crucible (to some extent), and Ugin.
- Remember that if they activate a Vial and you think they have a Revoker in hand, use whatever relevant activated abilities you have in response! You don't get to respond to Revoker's trigger once it's put into play.

Lands
- Another rough one, though the degree of unfavorability depends on both your builds. I've found that Lands decks playing Port aren't as bad for us as the decks playing Ghost Quarter.
- If you're able to make a turn 1 Chalice for 1, I'd do it: it hits Crop Rotation, Gamble, and Exploration. Otherwise, getting it on 2 is huge. Shutting off Loam is critical, and getting rid of Punishing Fire helps keep Metalworkers alive, which is good against mana-denial.dec.
- On a related note, I think Lightning Greaves is awesome here. Being able to protect Metalworkers is great, as is the ability to "get them" with Forgemaster. Likewise, if you're able to ramp/tutor out a Platinum creature and put Greaves on it, that's going to buy you a ton of time.
- Always play with Krosan Grip at the back of your mind.
- The aspect of Lands we struggle with the most is a quick Marit Lage (assuming you aren't playing fringe cards like Ensnaring Bridge, Mirage Mirror, or Thespian's Stage). As long as they don't power the combo out, the grind isn't automatically bad for you. Play to your outs: if you're in a draw-go Loam-Wasteland board, try to sculpt a hand that will let you escape it (e.g. 2 Sol Lands, a Grim Monolith, a Metalworker, and a Greaves). Coercive Portal effects help with this.

#

Anyway, went 3-1 on this last night:

4 Metalworker
4 Ballista
4 Lodestone
3 Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil
1 Emperion
1 Titan
2 Ugin

4 Monolith
4 Chalice
3 Trinisphere
2 Greaves
1 Staff of Domination

3 Wasteland
4 Tomb
3 City
11 Post
2 Cavern
1 Inventors' Fair

1 Spine
1 Contagion Engine
2 Coercive Portal
2 Crucible
3 Spyglass
3 Thorn
3 Tormod's Crypt

I beat BUG Control, 4C Stiflenaught, and RB Reanimator. Lost to Lands. Some thoughts:
- I've been on a grindier version of MUD (i.e. maindeck Portals, no Greaves) for a while, but going back to combo-oriented felt great.
- 4 Ballista is too much. I wanted to do the full playset just so I could get a better feel for the card. 1 will become a Hellkite.
- I've been underwhelmed by Crucible for a while. I can't remember the last time I wanted it as a proactive prison piece. In the matches you want it defensively, it's either too situational (vs DnT, they might not have Wasteland effects) or it can't keep up (against Loam locks). I'm gonna try making it into 2 Tsabo's Web and see how I like it.

malfie13
01-27-2018, 12:41 PM
Thanks for the extra info malfie. Do you have. Decklist to go with your experiences? . . Also, I really want to put in walking ballista's, but I can't seem to make room for them. Plus, the fact that they can't be grabbed with forgemaster really puts a ding in their appeal.

I should also have mentioned chalice on 2 vs lands. Yes, its backbreaking.

I cant post my current list until monday, bc reasons. Lol. That said, mud can oops i win two ways. Vs some decks forgemaster is more key, whereas vs others metalworker and staff is my go to. Also, i disagree with cutting chalices on the play vs dt, and on the draw its questionable. On the other hand, i do agree that thorn and 3ball can be bad.

malfie13
01-27-2018, 12:45 PM
To stuart. I run 2x ballista and it usually feels fine. Unless vs infect, elves or dt its held until im going for the kill.

malfie13
01-28-2018, 10:54 PM
Thanks for the extra info malfie. Do you have. Decklist to go with your experiences? . . Also, I really want to put in walking ballista's, but I can't seem to make room for them. Plus, the fact that they can't be grabbed with forgemaster really puts a ding in their appeal. I also dunno how i feel about staff of nin. Feels good to ping strixes and pyros, tho

I want to get some practice and tech vs these 3 decks, because they seem to be the most played at the SCG team events, and I'm going to be the legacy player for my team for SCG Cincinnati.

I wound up getting super sick on friday and couldnt make gp philly, but my list would have likely looked something like this:

Deck: Legacy MUD 12-16-17.dec

Counts : 61 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:16
2 Walking Ballista
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Blightsteel Colossus

Spells:21
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Grim Monolith
1 Lightning Greaves
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Staff of Domination
2 Trinisphere
1 Bottled Cloister
1 Ghirapur Orrery
1 Staff of Nin
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Lands:24
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Buried Ruin
2 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Petrified Field
1 Thespian's Stage
3 Vesuva

Sideboard:15
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Platinum Angel
1 Sundering Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Orbs of Warding
2 All Is Dust

I did a little testing and if im sbing titan, i think hellkite has to take its place, if for no other reason as another finisher. Then im in your position, bc id never cut to fewer than 2 ballistae.

BlackHawkX9
01-29-2018, 03:30 PM
I wound up getting super sick on friday and couldnt make gp philly, but my list would have likely looked something like this:

Deck: Legacy MUD 12-16-17.dec

Counts : 61 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:16
2 Walking Ballista
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Blightsteel Colossus

Spells:21
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Grim Monolith
1 Lightning Greaves
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Staff of Domination
2 Trinisphere
1 Bottled Cloister
1 Ghirapur Orrery
1 Staff of Nin
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Lands:24
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Buried Ruin
2 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Petrified Field
1 Thespian's Stage
3 Vesuva

Sideboard:15
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Platinum Angel
1 Sundering Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Orbs of Warding
2 All Is Dust

I did a little testing and if im sbing titan, i think hellkite has to take its place, if for no other reason as another finisher. Then im in your position, bc id never cut to fewer than 2 ballistae.

No offense towards you. But i could never play your list. .

61 cards is just sacrilege. Crucible of worlds is a great card, but in this current meta with deathrite shaman being everywhere, it becomes dead, too often. I still don't like the risk of getting blown out by them killing your cloister, and your opponent getting the free land drops too, from orrery. Also, I have almost never wanted both platinum creatures in the same 75. I think you are trying to do too much at once, noted by so many of the staple four of's being cut to 2's and 3's. Your list feels really scattered all over the place.

1ron
01-29-2018, 11:05 PM
No offense towards you. But i could never play your list. .

61 cards is just sacrilege. Crucible of worlds is a great card, but in this current meta with deathrite shaman being everywhere, it becomes dead, too often. I still don't like the risk of getting blown out by them killing your cloister, and your opponent getting the free land drops too, from orrery. Also, I have almost never wanted both platinum creatures in the same 75. I think you are trying to do too much at once, noted by so many of the staple four of's being cut to 2's and 3's. Your list feels really scattered all over the place.

I absolutely love your lists malfie, but I gotta agree that I don't like the Crucible main.

malfie13
02-02-2018, 10:09 PM
I absolutely love your lists malfie, but I gotta agree that I don't like the Crucible main.

Yeah, i feel you. 61 cards is absolutely fine in a tutor deck where mana isnt an issue. I didnt get to test with the mb crucible and it was a basic swap with titan, which felt odd on so many levels. Id probably swap them back. Havent been able to brew in a few days. Son was sick. Probably back to it tomorrow. Lol. I may play a nic fit in the local tourney tho. Dont want opponents getting too comfy.

malfie13
02-02-2018, 10:15 PM
No offense towards you. But i could never play your list. .

61 cards is just sacrilege. Crucible of worlds is a great card, but in this current meta with deathrite shaman being everywhere, it becomes dead, too often. I still don't like the risk of getting blown out by them killing your cloister, and your opponent getting the free land drops too, from orrery. Also, I have almost never wanted both platinum creatures in the same 75. I think you are trying to do too much at once, noted by so many of the staple four of's being cut to 2's and 3's. Your list feels really scattered all over the place.

Hey. Fair enough. I understand that toying with existing strategies makes long time players uncomfortable. That said, i have def advised anyone whos asked to play test with orrery. It is a great card when good, and horrible when bad. I have rational reasons for many trims, mainly the mb thorns. If anything i find thorns most backbreaking, esp with lodestone, more than chalices, for ex. If theres any particular question you have regarding my lists, you're free to ask.

BlackHawkX9
02-03-2018, 11:08 AM
Hey. Fair enough. I understand that toying with existing strategies makes long time players uncomfortable. That said, i have def advised anyone whos asked to play test with orrery. It is a great card when good, and horrible when bad. I have rational reasons for many trims, mainly the mb thorns. If anything i find thorns most backbreaking, esp with lodestone, more than chalices, for ex. If theres any particular question you have regarding my lists, you're free to ask.

On the more productive questioning side of things. I see that you have trimmed down to 2 trinispheres also. With so much taxation on our mana base, leaving a higher chance to get locked under our own trinisphere, I board out trinisphere alot in the current meta. Do you feel that trinisphere is as back breaking to our opponents now, as it used to be, to deserve it's main deck presence still?

shallowend
02-03-2018, 02:54 PM
On the more productive questioning side of things. I see that you have trimmed down to 2 trinispheres also. With so much taxation on our mana base, leaving a higher chance to get locked under our own trinisphere, I board out trinisphere alot in the current meta. Do you feel that trinisphere is as back breaking to our opponents now, as it used to be, to deserve it's main deck presence still?I am not sure I agree with your logic. There are few spells in our list that cost less than 3 and it has always been the case we aim to break the synergy of this effect. If our manabase is in ruins we are not casting anything.

Sent from my F3111 using Tapatalk

malfie13
02-03-2018, 11:45 PM
I am not sure I agree with your logic. There are few spells in our list that cost less than 3 and it has always been the case we aim to break the synergy of this effect. If our manabase is in ruins we are not casting anything.

Sent from my F3111 using Tapatalk

Its not that i dislike trin, its that thorn is an easier t1 play. Its better vs many decks, like dt bc it hits creatures too. But vs the majority of the field, i like thorn and chalice more than trin to act as lock pieces.

Mosesthecoot
02-04-2018, 06:50 AM
Its not that i dislike trin, its that thorn is an easier t1 play. Its better vs many decks, like dt bc it hits creatures too. But vs the majority of the field, i like thorn and chalice more than trin to act as lock pieces.

I, too, have cut down on Trinisphere. I think I’m on 2 if not 1 as a Tutor target for Forgemaster. Perhaps it’s
My playstyle or my mulligan choices but I find myself seeing an early Trinisphere with City and then not able to draw out of it in time to take advantage of the tax. If our opponent is still playing a Delver the same turn as we are playing a Metalworker or Golem, did it really create an advantage?

BlackHawkX9
02-04-2018, 07:45 AM
Its not that i dislike trin, its that thorn is an easier t1 play. Its better vs many decks, like dt bc it hits creatures too. But vs the majority of the field, i like thorn and chalice more than trin to act as lock pieces.

I won't even play trinisphere against dnt most of the time. Between them able to revoker metalworker and grim monolith, or just swords metalworker, taking out our ramp, and wastelanding and rishadon porting our lands, I've found it very easy for dnt to be in a position to lock me under my own trinisphere.

And that's not counting lands and maverick, with the recurring wastelands train to use 3 ball against us. Yes, 3ball can slow those decks down, but our window of opportunity is very small before they recover and use 3ball against us.

And then there are all the flavors of delver, tempo, deathrite bullshitery that just runs 4 wastelands and all the disruption with counterspells and/or discard. Feels real bad to play trinisphere and they draw the 2-3 wasteland game vs you missing land drops or drawing city of traitors.

Trinisphere is an amazing card, yes. But in the current more low to the ground tempo meta, I don't think it is as amazing as it used to be, vs options like, say, thorn of amethyst.

Stuart
02-05-2018, 11:28 AM
Interesting to hear everyone trimming down on Trinisphere; I've been liking it less lately, too. It's tempting to replace them with MD Thorn, though I'm apprehensive about taxing our own Ugins. He's so frequently a get-out-of-jail-free card, so I'd hate to shut myself out of a win because I can't afford to pay 9 or 10 to cast him. Maybe when you're running both Ballista and Ugin you can afford the risk, though, as Ballista gives you another pseudo-sweeper.

Mr. Froggy
02-10-2018, 08:21 PM
I've recently decided to rebuild MUD and I've been trying Ballista, I've got to say I'm really not a fan of it. Costs way too much for what it does, IMO.

malfie13
02-24-2018, 07:10 AM
I've recently decided to rebuild MUD and I've been trying Ballista, I've got to say I'm really not a fan of it. Costs way too much for what it does, IMO.

That's maybe fair, but in the decks where it is good it is stupid good. It helps vs a couple of usually meh matches, and adds a second "oops, i win", with metalworker amd staff. Also kills on any board, even a clogged one. Ive won more games recently that way than any other, honestly. Can also be value played on 2 vs d and t or infect of wtv, just to control the board and tick up from time to time.

malfie13
02-24-2018, 07:14 AM
Interesting to hear everyone trimming down on Trinisphere; I've been liking it less lately, too. It's tempting to replace them with MD Thorn, though I'm apprehensive about taxing our own Ugins. He's so frequently a get-out-of-jail-free card, so I'd hate to shut myself out of a win because I can't afford to pay 9 or 10 to cast him. Maybe when you're running both Ballista and Ugin you can afford the risk, though, as Ballista gives you another pseudo-sweeper.

I usually run 4x thorn mb, bc its gross. Thorn into lodestone is actual gg vs many, many decks amd makes many of our matches unwinnable for opponents. Strix is a nuecence, but is one of the few cards not torched by this combo of other cards. I have had many people they would rather play into chalice than like 2 thorns and a lodestone.

malfie13
02-24-2018, 07:21 AM
As an aside, i have been testing with the side razormane masticore, and it is very, very good where i want it to be. It kills leovold, thalia and other super issue creatures, and swings right through strixes. It has been coming in vs like every creature deck, and been doing hard work. I think it will be in my sb at my next comp rel event, assuming i go. I am still working on the rest of the board. I dunno how many of you have been blown out by a back to basics, ever, but it feels awful. Have also been testing nev disc. Im not entirely sure how i feel about it. Fetching it on opponent's endstep to blow on my turn feels good, although wear and tear or disenchant are annoying. What do you all use to remove back to basics, bc if i cannot fetch spine of ish sah, because it is in my hand or wtv, btb is the most feel bads.

Mr. Froggy
02-24-2018, 11:31 AM
That's maybe fair, but in the decks where it is good it is stupid good. It helps vs a couple of usually meh matches, and adds a second "oops, i win", with metalworker amd staff. Also kills on any board, even a clogged one. Ive won more games recently that way than any other, honestly. Can also be value played on 2 vs d and t or infect of wtv, just to control the board and tick up from time to time.

Would you say I should run a Staff of Domination alongside Ballista?

I cut Staff from my deck back in the day.

malfie13
03-02-2018, 08:31 AM
If youre running ballista, you should be running the infinite mana combo. Also i find that with leovold everywhere, it helps to draw a card on opponent turns. Also helps vs show and tell and reanimator, which are both currently endemic around here.

I think im a good to go for scg Worcester, guys. Wish me luck!

Silverflame
03-02-2018, 06:47 PM
If youre running ballista, you should be running the infinite mana combo. Also i find that with leovold everywhere, it helps to draw a card on opponent turns. Also helps vs show and tell and reanimator, which are both currently endemic around here.

I think im a good to go for scg Worcester, guys. Wish me luck!

Good luck man, may the robot overlords bless you.

malfie13
03-05-2018, 03:51 PM
Had that annoying experience of being live until rd 9...then dying to the slow tick up of a ratchet bomb behind a bridge drawing like 20+ cards and finding no answers or tutors. Other than that i had a pretty good day 1. Ill try to craft a more official report when i can look over my notes. If only i knew we could both get in to day 2 on a draw....

malfie13
03-08-2018, 08:58 PM
Ok, so I don't know how many of you have been following today's spoilers, but...did you see the artifact that shuts down the mana accelerant lands?

Mr. Froggy
03-08-2018, 09:43 PM
Ok, so I don't know how many of you have been following today's spoilers, but...did you see the artifact that shuts down the mana accelerant lands?

Link?

Silverflame
03-08-2018, 10:12 PM
Link?

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/dominaria-leak-2018-03-08

Silverflame
03-08-2018, 10:15 PM
Cards that drew my attention, in order:

Karn, Scion of Urza
4
Legendary Planeswalker — Karn
5
+1: Reveal the top two cards of your library. An opponent chooses one of them. Put that card into your hand and exile the other with a silver counter on it.
−1: Put a card you own with a silver counter on it from exile into your hand.
−2: Create a 0/0 colorless Construct artifact creature token with "This creature gets +1/+1 for each artifact you control."

-----
Urza's Tome
2
Artifact
3, T: Draw a card. Then discard a card unless you exile a historic card from your graveyard. (Artifacts, legendaries, and Sagas are historic.)

-----
Damping Sphere
2
Artifact
If a land is tapped for two or more mana, it produces C instead of any other type and amount.
Each spell a player casts costs 1 more to cast for each other spell that player has cast this turn.

-----

darkgh0st
03-09-2018, 10:27 PM
I've missed MUD after playing Eldrazi for a while and rebuilt it. Went 3-1 today losing to Infect. I cut down to 2 Trinispheres as well and want to go up to 4 Thorn in the SB due to 4cc's dominance.
I think the new Karn fits right in vs control match ups (4cc especially). Since Karn isn't an artifact, it can't be K. Command destroyed and "draws" you cards over Leovold.
I'd slot in the Karn or even Coercive Portal over Urza's Tome anyday.

AmokPL
03-10-2018, 03:18 AM
Ok, so I don't know how many of you have been following today's spoilers, but...did you see the artifact that shuts down the mana accelerant lands?

massive hype about it - everybody wants to play it against everything. It shuts down Cradle, Post lands, Sol Lands, hoses Storm. I think it is the same power level as Grafdigger's Cage. It does look scary and because we don't have a way to deal with it it seems problematic BUT...hey if things get really bad we can always transform - cut post lands and add Thran Dynamo and Voltaic Key like in the past. I missed that new Karn - seems solid.

Mr. Froggy
03-11-2018, 12:43 PM
I'm playing in the Legacy Challenge on MTGO, 2-1 right now, 3 more rounds to go.

Silverflame
03-11-2018, 01:28 PM
I'd slot in the Karn or even Coercive Portal over Urza's Tome anyday.
Agreed, except in red MUD, where it is also an enabler.

bruizar
03-11-2018, 04:44 PM
massive hype about it - everybody wants to play it against everything. It shuts down Cradle, Post lands, Sol Lands, hoses Storm. I think it is the same power level as Grafdigger's Cage. It does look scary and because we don't have a way to deal with it it seems problematic BUT...hey if things get really bad we can always transform - cut post lands and add Thran Dynamo and Voltaic Key like in the past. I missed that new Karn - seems solid.

You can skip voltaic key, run chalice and voltaic servant.

Tomb, Grim Monolith, Voltaic Servant seems like an ok turn 1. Not as explosive as voltaic key, but still nice.

Tomb, Grim Monolith Voltaic Key Karn is much nicer though :-)

vorlagh
03-11-2018, 06:33 PM
Hi

Played local tournament tday (went 3-1)

R1: UW delver (with Thalia, Heretic Cathar) 0:2

R2: burn (noob player) - 2:0
G1: - T1 sphere
G2: - T1 challice

R3: Bug control - 2:1
G1: T1 Sorcerouss spyglass on on land keep (verdant catacomb)
his hand: (Verdant catacomb, deathrite shaman, Push, Strix, Decay, TNN, Pulse)
G2: 40min game - got control magic on my wurmcoil, stabilized last turn before death with kuldotha for platinum emperion
Liliana + pernicious deed got me
G3: T1 Sourcerouss spyglass on verdant catacomb
hand: (Liliana, TNN, Control Magic, Verdant catacomb, underground sea, deathrite shaman)
T2 Golem = GG

R4: Food Chain BUG
G1: opp mulligan to 5 (I keep 7)
Golem got forced so Wurmcoil finished his job
G2:
T2: got hymned T2 for Sphere + Golem
T3: 2nd golem got forced
After I make board again he went off (time when I realized he is not a BUG sth. but food chain)
G3: Kept 6card hand with 2 metalworkers
T2: metalworker
T3: Golem, kuldotha, wurmcoil, monolith
in his T3 he had combo but golem made his job
T4: he tried trinket mage - kuldotha for 2nd Golem --> GG

I played legacy after a 1year period. So probably made some mistakes (know about 1 in first round, but there were some close keeps), also deck was going pretty well - u know how can be mud frustrating time to time
Sorcerouss spyglass --> rly good card, will include more in MB
Coercive portal --> not good enough

Decklist:

//Artifact (17)
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Coercive Portal
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Domination
3 Trinisphere

//Artifact Creature (18)
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Steel Hellkite
3 Wurmcoil Engine

//Planeswalker (1)
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

//Land (24)
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Buried Ruin
2 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Crystal Vein
4 Glimmerpost
1 Inventors' Fair
2 Vesuva
2 Wasteland

SB: 1 All Is Dust
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 1 Contagion Engine
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 Duplicant
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 1 Sundering Titan
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Torpor Orb
SB: 1 Tsabo's Web
SB: 2 Warping Wail

* Caverns of souls (dont have them)
* pithing needle in SB (dont have 2nd sorcerouss spyglass yet --> thinking about MB both)

Mr. Froggy
03-13-2018, 06:18 PM
How have you liked not running Walking Ballista?

malfie13
03-16-2018, 07:23 AM
Spyglass is def better than needle for obv reasons. Also, why no faerie macabre sb? You have zero t1 interaction for reanimator if they chancellor you and you have a tapped land or on the draw. Seems like a mistake.

malfie13
03-16-2018, 07:26 AM
You can skip voltaic key, run chalice and voltaic servant.

Tomb, Grim Monolith, Voltaic Servant seems like an ok turn 1. Not as explosive as voltaic key, but still nice.

Tomb, Grim Monolith Voltaic Key Karn is much nicer though :-)

Is voltaic servant in the dominaria set? I didnt find it when i searched for it.... also yea, mana rocks may become our best answer, sadly.

Silverflame
03-16-2018, 09:20 AM
Is voltaic servant in the dominaria set? I didnt find it when i searched for it.... also yea, mana rocks may become our best answer, sadly.

Dominaria indeed
http://mythicspoiler.com/dom/cards/voltaicservant.jpg

malfie13
03-18-2018, 11:51 AM
Dominaria indeed
http://mythicspoiler.com/dom/cards/voltaicservant.jpg

Ah, there it is.

Anyone see the price jump in foil new ulamog? Jeez, buyouts.

BlackHawkX9
03-22-2018, 01:13 PM
Has anyone considered running phyrexian metamorph as a sideboard card or even a main board option? . Copy an opposed dark depths token. Copy an opposed fatty. Copy your fatty. Copy your own staff of nin or coercive portal. . . Mainly I'm thinking of it as a tutorable way to stone wall marit lage token.

Airwave
03-23-2018, 06:54 AM
Has anyone considered running phyrexian metamorph as a sideboard card or even a main board option? . Copy an opposed dark depths token. Copy an opposed fatty. Copy your fatty. Copy your own staff of nin or coercive portal. . . Mainly I'm thinking of it as a tutorable way to stone wall marit lage token.

It's also nice to copy Lodestone, puts a lot of pressure on the opponent if it hits the board fast.

Against Turbo Depths I'm not sure it works that often, since they often make the marit lage token at the end of your turn.

Tucane
03-23-2018, 08:46 AM
It's also nice to copy Lodestone, puts a lot of pressure on the opponent if it hits the board fast.

Against Turbo Depths I'm not sure it works that often, since they often make the marit lage token at the end of your turn.

I assumed he intended to Forgemaster for it. I'm still waiting for an upgraded Duplicant that actually can hit tokens.

AmokPL
03-23-2018, 12:07 PM
Has anyone considered running phyrexian metamorph as a sideboard card or even a main board option? . Copy an opposed dark depths token. Copy an opposed fatty. Copy your fatty. Copy your own staff of nin or coercive portal. . . Mainly I'm thinking of it as a tutorable way to stone wall marit lage token.

just tutor for Emperion - they have no way to remove it neither first game nor after sb

BlackHawkX9
03-23-2018, 02:37 PM
just tutor for Emperion - they have no way to remove it neither first game nor after sb

Every lands list I've faced as of late, turbo depths or RG lands, is packing 3-4 krosan grips in sideboard.

Silverflame
03-23-2018, 03:18 PM
Every lands list I've faced as of late, turbo depths or RG lands, is packing 3-4 krosan grips in sideboard.

it is still more reliable as they MD karakas and can crop rotate for it. Metamorph is good on paper, but it never really worked for me.

AmokPL
03-23-2018, 03:19 PM
Every lands list I've faced as of late, turbo depths or RG lands, is packing 3-4 krosan grips in sideboard.

not sure about Lands but Turbo Depths used to play one copy of Grip mostly to fight CB lock. These days they usually count on Decays.

TLK
03-23-2018, 07:06 PM
Lands definitely runs 1-3 Grips in the board.

bruizar
03-24-2018, 05:33 AM
I know space is tight for utility land, but this one fixes a major issue of the deck (selection)

https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/204/192/636573550302420213.png

And the league promo..
https://www.cardmarket.com/img/d08c4cc4fc5c447e15eb09a772045b00/cards/League_Promos/zhalfirin_void.jpg

AmokPL
03-24-2018, 12:17 PM
I know space is tight for utility land, but this one fixes a major issue of the deck (selection)

https://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/204/192/636573550302420213.png

And the league promo..
https://www.cardmarket.com/img/d08c4cc4fc5c447e15eb09a772045b00/cards/League_Promos/zhalfirin_void.jpg


I'd choose one of at least six different (IMHO more powerful )lands (Buried Ruin, Thespian Stage, second Fair, Factory, Wasteland, Citadel) before this one but that's just me. I do love the flavour of it though.

Silverflame
03-28-2018, 10:00 PM
Played a 46-man tournament yesterday, got 3rd place. Hadn't played a tournament in 6 months, so I guess it was good. List is basically Malfie's:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
3 City of Traitors
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Vesuva
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Wasteland
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Grim Monolith
3 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Walking Ballista
1 Staff of Domination
1 Coercive Portal
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Trinisphere
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Scrap Trawler

SB: 4 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Steel Hellkite
SB: 1 Orbs of Warding
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 1 Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 All Is Dust
SB: 2 Ensnaring Bridge

Round 1 - Maverick
G1: I start with cloud post, then chalice for 1, then I can safely play a metalworker + ugin. Game ends before I get to see if it's aggro loam or maverick as I only saw a couple moxen, reliquary and GSZ for dryad.
Side In: in ratchet bomb, all is dust.
Side Out: Trinisphere, 1 ballista.

G2: I start ramping with posts, he wastes a cloudpost and plays ramunap excavator. I sink in my chair. Luckily, he didn't start breaking my lands soon enough and I get a spyglass to stop the LD. But the missing post is enough so I never get to 8 mana on time, so he overruns me with gaddock and relicary.

G3: I start with tomb for spyglass, see a plowshares, qasali pridemage, and other stuff. I lock qasali and ramp with 2 wurmcoils in hand, then draw another one and start casting one for turn.

1-0

Round 2 - Dredge
G1: He starts discarding about 12 cards, I play tomb and chalice for 1. He slows down a bit, and I recover hp with glimmerpost while being hit by an ichorid. I drop a platinum emperion and he thinks for about 2 turns, then see he have no way to remove it.
Side In : faeries, tormod's, ratchet bomb, batterskull, orbs of warding, hellkite.
Side Out: 3 spyglass, trinisphere, trawler, portal, 1 chalice.

G2: I mull to a hand with glimmer, fair, cavern, monolith, metalworker, wurmcoil. He therapy my mw and I'm now in a bad position. Luckily, I draw a cloudpost, then another glimmer so I can ramp into an orbs of warding, then kuldotha for a blightsteel.

2-0

Round 3 - Dredge

G1: I start with cloudpost, he therapy me for metalworker, hitting one, but I draw another and combo.
Side: same as before.

G2: He starts discarding and dredging about 15 cards. I get a lodestone but he destroys it with wear/tear and gets too many tokens for me to handle on turn 4.

G3: I keep a land heavy hand and get lots of mana and hp from glimmer before he can get out of my soft lock. I slow him down with tormod, but next turn he has 12 cards in GY again and ichorids start attacking. I halt him with kuldotha for emperion. Then I misplay. I had a chalice on 1 and another chalice in hand. I should've played it for 4 to counter dread return as he had already discarded 2 wear/tear. I cast it for 2 then 2 turns later he dreads Ashen rider. I sac it with kuldotha find an emperion to buy time, but he flashbacks therapy saccing the rider to eat it. I try to stall until I get hellkite or wurmcoil as we are both at 4 life. Then I draw a kuldotha but it never gets to untap.

2-1

Round 4 - Eldrazi
G1: He starts quick dropping mimics and thought-knot and starts bashing. I go to 1 life, then stall with a wurmcoil, gaining 1 life a turn with inventor's fair. Then I get emperion into play, stabilizing for several turns. I waste his eye, but He gets endbringer online, drawing 3 cards a turn. The board gets cluttered and I cast a hellkite, that can't attack due to endbringer, but makes him draw 1 card less a turn and I get to draw more with a staff. He finally gets a ballista for 4, 1 dmg from endbringer and spatial contortion to finish the platinum emperion that I sacc for a blightsteel, so he doesn't attack. EOT I sacc other stuff for a spyglass, lock his endbringer and alpha strike with hellkite.
Side in: batterskull, ratchet, hellkite, 2 bridge.
Side Out: 2 ugin, 3 chalice.

G2: I keep an unfair hand, metalworker, tomb, greaves, hellkite, monolith, cloudpost. he starts with tomb to endless one. I go tomb monolith. He plays eldrazi temple and taps 4, I freeze... He goes endless one for 4. T2 I go greaves, metalworker, equip, tap, hellkite, equip, attacks him to 11, activate for zero destroying his two endless one. Much wow. T3 he drops smasher, so we are both at 9 life. On my turn I buff hellkite to 9 and go ftw.

3-1

Round 5 - Sneak & Show
My opponent asks to ID and I deny, as it is not sure to lock in top 8 although I'm on table 2. He doesn't seem happy with that.

G1: I play a spyglass that eats a fow and start ramping for lodestone as he ponders. Lodestone comes down with greaves, then another lodestone and the game ends.

I'm not sure what he is on, so I sideboard lightly.
Side in: 4 thorn.
Side out: -2 kuldotha, -2 ugin.

G2: I burn some life with tomb to cast a metalworker and go for wurmcoil, but he S&T an emrakul. I'm at 14 life. I draw an invento'rs fair, but I don't have enough mana to fetch a staff, cast it and have 4 to survive.

Side in: spine, hellkite, 2 bridges.
Side out: trawler, emperion, trinesphere, coercive portal.

G3: I spyglass. I see he have S&T, sneak attack, misty rainforest, scalding tarn and cantrips, so I name scalding tarn. He EOT BS, draw and go. I cast a chalice for one. He sighs, plays tarn and go. I build my board with 2 thorns and some other stuff for a few turns, as he can't play anything with an island and 2 scalding tarns in play. I misplay and give him one turn more than needed as I had staff combo assembled. that almost is enough for him to go off and win. Almost.

4-1

round 6 ID.
I'm on table 1. Hooray!

top 8

Miracles
Same guy I Id'ed. I played him years ago in the top 8 of a bigger tournament. He is skilled.

G1 - I burn some life with tomb, to cast a metalworker and lodestone with greaves, holding another one in hand as I saw a portent, so I know he is on miracles at turn 3. He casts terminus. 2 turns later, I play cavern, kuldotha, and fetch a blighsteel ftw.

SideIn: 4 thorns, ratchet bomb, batterskull.
Sideout: Trawler, 1 grim monolith, 1 ballista, emperion.

G2 - I cast a thorn, He BS and allows. As I try to build my mana, he casts clique and takes away my lodestone. I start drawing cards with staff and he plays monastery mentor. I cast a spyglass on something I don't remember, and see jace and plowshares in his hand. he can't cast plowshares because of chalice. I play a cavern to kuldotha again, greaves, trinesphere, fetch blightsteel and my opponent tilts, trying to rollback an action to cast the plowshares before the trinesphere to get a token. I allow.. He chumpblock, and in his turn cast the jace, but he can't bounce blighsteel because of greaves.

Top 4

Burn
Before I could get up and stretch my legs, the judge says we can start the match as the other tables are still playing.

G1 - I keep a post hand and get punished, as I don't get to attack fast enough.
SideIn: Orbs of warding, 4 thorn, batterskull, ratchet bomb.
Sideout: 2 ugin, trawler, 3 spyglass, coercive portal.

G2 - I play cloudpost and he goes goblin guide. I play glimmer and cast a chalice on 1. Next goes cloudpost into lodestone, then thorn + kuldotha. He gets slowed enough so I can cast an orbs of warding and emperion on the same turn and then ballista for 4 in the next, closing the game.

G3 - I keep a reasonable hand with a metalworker turn 2 and lodestone. But he gets T1 monastery, t2 monastery + lava spike t3 smithereens + rift bolt, t4 smithereens....
Overall, the list seemed solid. Trawler only appeared in two matches and it wasn't relevant as I was already going to win anyway (eldrazi destroyed my emperion, so I kuldotha'ed, getting a wurmcoil back). I expected much more midrangey decks, where it could shine.
metagame was:
1 DAT
3 Burn
1 MonoRed Prison
2 Dredge
1 Lands
1 MUD (me)
4 Miracles
2 Goblins
4 Grixis Delver
2 TES
4 S&S
3 ANT
3 Elves
1 Aggro Loam
2 BR Reanimator
1 Maverick
1 Soldier Stompy
1 RUG Delver
1 Show and Tell
1 BG Depths
1 Cephalid Breakfast
1 BUG Delver
1 Eldrazi
1 BUG Control
1 Steel Stompy
1 UW RIP
1 UWx Stoneblade

(nameless one)
04-02-2018, 11:39 AM
I haven't played legacy in a while but I feel like contributing with this: https://m.imgur.com/B1ntGDF?r Weatherlight (https://m.imgur.com/B1ntGDF?r)


With Sol Lands/Metalworker, it can easily come down early. Hard to remove as it becomes a non-creature at the end of turn (Mishra's Factory can man it if needed), it filters through the deck and grabs what you need (both artifacts and Ugin/Karn)

shallowend
04-02-2018, 06:32 PM
I haven't played legacy in a while but I feel like contributing with this: https://m.imgur.com/B1ntGDF?r Weatherlight (https://m.imgur.com/B1ntGDF?r)


With Sol Lands/Metalworker, it can easily come down early. Hard to remove as it becomes a non-creature at the end of turn (Mishra's Factory can man it if needed), it filters through the deck and grabs what you need (both artifacts and Ugin/Karn)I think if we can crew this we would rather be attacking. Also we are not looking for specific things, more just a quantity of our cards so the howling mine effects do a pretty good approximation of the combat trigger. I think the new Karn is better suited to the deck than anything with the crew mechanic.

Sent from my F3111 using Tapatalk

Jorruk
04-11-2018, 08:28 AM
Hello everyone,

First of all, as this is my first post on this forum, thank you for all the analysis provided here. I really enjoyed reading your comments :)
I am a MUD player for approximately 3 years now and I really love this deck. My best perf was at the first eternal week end (Europe) where I top16ed. I lost my final round on a misplay (being featured :cry: )
Anyway, for now I run a list that is something like this :
// Arpenteurs (2)
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
// Créatures (19)
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Steel Hellkite
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Blightsteel Colossus
// Sorts (15)
1 Staff of Nin / Coercive portal depending on my mood
1 Staff of Domination
2 Trinisphere
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Lightning Greaves
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
// Terrains (24)
2 Vesuva
4 Cloudpost
3 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Wasteland
4 Glimmerpost
3 Cavern of Souls
1 Inventor's Fair
// SIDE DECK (15)
SB: 1 Duplicant
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 1 Orbs of Warding
SB: 1 Coercive Portal
SB: 2 Warping Wail
SB: 1 Defense Grid
SB: 1 Sorcerous Spyglass
SB: 2 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb

So as you can see, I didn't reinvent the wheel. Last friday I did a 3-1 and lost to the first (Czech pile). Usually I end at 4-0, 3-1 or 2-2.
However I am feeling less and less confortable with the Czech pile MU. (as well as lands and maverick but those are the unwinnable MU :p)
How do you usually play against these types of decks ?

Silverflame
04-11-2018, 02:38 PM
oh boy... EOT Ugin/blighsteel

http://mythicspoiler.com/dom/cards/thrantemporalgateway.jpg

Silverflame
04-11-2018, 02:49 PM
Hello everyone,

First of all, as this is my first post on this forum, thank you for all the analysis provided here. I really enjoyed reading your comments :)
However I am feeling less and less confortable with the Czech pile MU. (as well as lands and maverick but those are the unwinnable MU :p)
How do you usually play against these types of decks ?

Hello Jorruk, please post more often if you're able, every input is important.
About the czech, they are very weak against land disruption, so any wastelands or sorcerous spyglass on their fetch can be fatal. Also they have zero ways to remove an Ugin. Since they're a grindy deck, I try to ramp with a trinisphere into wurmcoil or ugin. Use caverns for construct or wurm, as you may need ballista to remove strix and pws. You should be slightly favored against them.

Fatal
04-11-2018, 03:18 PM
oh boy... EOT Ugin/blighsteel

http://mythicspoiler.com/dom/cards/thrantemporalgateway.jpg

Just to slow - that one mana changes everything ~this~ vs metalworker:
- Worker can just tap for mana and you can cast multiple threads
- ~this require 4 more mana - compare it to quicksilver amulet - similar effect for creatures and see 0 play in legacy (lol - it was reprinted - I remember that card from Urza's Legacy).

Silverflame
04-11-2018, 03:57 PM
Just to slow - that one mana changes everything ~this~ vs metalworker:
- Worker can just tap for mana and you can cast multiple threads
- ~this require 4 more mana - compare it to quicksilver amulet - similar effect for creatures and see 0 play in legacy (lol - it was reprinted - I remember that card from Urza's Legacy).

it's application is a bit broader than quicksilver as it can put planeswalkers and non-creature artifacts too; it can be used as a pseudo caverns or to bypass gaddock teeg (if you cast it before teeg enters play), meddling mage and sanctum prelate. You can put a ratchet bomb against those pesky entreated angels, spine something, put contagions engine to stop elves combo, etc
I'll probably try 1 or 2 MD for the hype. It may not be as good as I think as I've been wrong before, but it seens worth trying.

Jorruk
04-12-2018, 04:22 AM
Hello Jorruk, please post more often if you're able, every input is important.
About the czech, they are very weak against land disruption, so any wastelands or sorcerous spyglass on their fetch can be fatal. Also they have zero ways to remove an Ugin. Since they're a grindy deck, I try to ramp with a trinisphere into wurmcoil or ugin. Use caverns for construct or wurm, as you may need ballista to remove strix and pws. You should be slightly favored against them.

I will definitely try to :)
I just tried something a bit different on cockatrix yesterday with a build containing MD 2 Walking ballista and 2 thorn of amethyst (-1 kuldotha, -1 sundering titan, -1 trinisphere, -1 spyglass)
I played against :
- unknown : didn't played any spell the 2 games
- goblins (horrible MU) : lost 2 matchs, 2-0 and 2-1. This deck is just quicker than us and doesn't really care of chalice. It was a spicy deck with kikki-jikki.
The deck basically consisted of goblin lackey/vial t1. Then goblins with goblin lackey effect but double strike.
Lots of annoying goblins : enter the BF : destroy target land/destroy target artifact etc etc
- BR Reanimator
G1 : on the play I cast a thorn of aemethyst followed by a T2 metalworker. He casts a T3 Griselbrand. T4 I cast a blightsteel colossus. His T4 : draw 14 with grisel + faithless looting flashback + double dark ritual into a creature. I pinged myself too much with AT, I have to draw a staff of domination or a flyer to win the race. => nope
G2 : T1 chalice on 1, T2 thorn, T3 lodestone, T4 lodestone => win
G3 : T1 thorn, T2 thorn and ... stuck a 2 lands for 5 turns with a hand full of lodestone, metalworker, staff and wurmcoil ...
-Miracle : chalice unforced and thorn + cavern wins me the game. G2 was similar with T4 Ugin that is almost unbeatable for miracle.

I was a bit sceptical about walking ballista but it is in fact marvelous. It is either a big threat or a "burn". Plus I am less enclined to regret cavern on construct with this creature in the deck. The MD thorns are usefull but are also depending a lot on the MU. Against a grindy deck it can be very great whereas against a deck like merfolk/goblins/D&T it is just a dead card

Noctalor
04-12-2018, 05:19 AM
So, lets recap Dominaria

http://mythicspoiler.com/dom/cards/traxosscourgeofkroog.jpg

Pretty juicy beater, we are likely to get it to swing every turn, and it should get us the game in 3/4 swings, maybe we can build a less heavy creature based staxx with this, lodestone, metalworker and some copies of wurmcoil

http://mythicspoiler.com/dom/cards/dampingsphere3.jpg

Pretty bad imho, the spheres we have already are just better, also turning off our sol lands is no good

http://mythicspoiler.com/dom/cards/weatherlight.jpg

Bad imho, too hard to crew properly (not wasting a bigger creature), also the effect is not that relevant, if we are swinging for 4 we dont really need to impulse to win

http://mythicspoiler.com/dom/cards/karnscionofurza2.jpg

Imho a new must for MUD, easily a 4 of in any single list, this card gives us:
- a CA engine, and we really need to play some
- 4 drop that is hella hard to interact with, not being an artifact is a plus imho, if we get this dude on board turn 2 is almost impossible to get rid of it
- a compact finisher, so we dont have to bother with having actual wincons in the deck other than karn
- board presence, 2 karn tokens should be enough to stall the board
- possibly, a rather quick race, turn 2 karn into token into token can kill by turn 6 probably, which may help in some MU


I built a karn list, 0 tests so far because it's playing with dominaria, but it looks promising

// 60 Maindeck
// 31 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
1 Trading Post
3 Trinisphere
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
4 Crucible of Worlds
2 Meekstone
1 Bottled Cloister

// 25 Land
4 Wasteland
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Inventors' Fair
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Buried Ruin
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Dunes of the Dead
4 Rishadan Port

// 4 Planeswalker
4 Karn, Scion of Urza


// 15 Sideboard
// 12 Artifact
SB: 1 Sorcerous Spyglass
SB: 2 Caltrops
SB: 1 Cursed Totem
SB: 2 Uba Mask
SB: 2 Welding Jar
SB: 1 Meekstone
SB: 3 Silent Gravestone

// 3 Creature
SB: 3 Lodestone Golem



Not sure on those 1 drops, but i think is fine to play meekstone, i like the idea to have a cheap anti delver card, but its also true that meekstone is blank against pyromancer, i am currently testing ports over quarters, but I'm ready to switch back to them anytime.
Feel free to give any imput on the list.

malfie13
04-13-2018, 07:27 AM
Hey, been thinking hard about dominaria cards. Karn seems good in a dedicated stax deck, but i feel like yiu have too many 1 drops. Remember the t1 should 100pct be prison. This may negate you ever playing a meekstone. Dunno about that. Also 4 karn seems like overload. You really should still run ugin, for utility if nothing else. Its quasi the same reason i dont run volt key.

2. That sphere is going to be annoying. I feel like it is going to be a minimum 2x in many sbs for storm, anyway, and peripherally hurts dump hand decks, and then also will come in vs us. Dunno if that warrants having thran dynamos or 4x monolith, but it is a consideration.

3. Servant seems basic ok. It dies to all creature removal tho, so id avoid it. Part of the fun of the deck is that lodestone should cost minimum 3 to bolt, or otherwise dodge with a chalice, and it or worker are the easiest creatures to kill. A t1 servant is just getting immediately murdered. Maybe better in the ravager build if it goes midrangey, but it isn't where they wanna be either.

4. Traxos seems like a pretty ok t2 or 3 play. It is going to make the best impact as a 1x. Remember it is legendary, and has no tertiary abilities other than a trample clock. Possibly better in a sb for non interactive games. Dunno. Its a new reveal and havent had a lot of time to think about it.

malfie13
04-13-2018, 08:01 AM
Non dominaria stuff, silverflame, how did you find scrap trawler? Ive been considering it for vs control and removal heavy decks.

2. Depths absolutely runs both ad and at least 1 grip. Thank god they have no effective way of tutoring for them. G1, a platinum emperion is indeed usually gg, because they effectively usually have no way of removing him. Edicts and grip come in from the sb.

Silverflame
04-13-2018, 02:38 PM
Non dominaria stuff, silverflame, how did you find scrap trawler? Ive been considering it for vs control and removal heavy decks.


The meta I play is usually infested with grindy decks, and in these matches, it is very good. Usually I get at least a chalice or ballista back, but sometimes it gets a lodestone or wumrcoil and that's where it shines. I'm still waiting for the blow out of saccing kuldotha and activating it several times, but it was never that relevant. The other option I thought for that slot was Foundry Inspector (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=417788&type=card) that is also a good early blocker and overall easier to generate value, although less powerful.

darkgh0st
04-13-2018, 10:33 PM
I'm pretty sure i'm slotting in 2 New Karns over Wurmcoils. Wurmcoils have been lackluster for me since picking up MUD again. I'll be testing up to 3 when Dominaria hits the shelves. As a test right now, I've removed Wurmcoils from my list and haven't found a need to put them back. I find that the life gain from posts and Fair gets me to survive until Plat.

On another note, I've been struggling to beat RG lands.

bruizar
04-14-2018, 08:01 AM
Traxos is a beast. I'd consider it a 3-off.

Zhalfirin Void -> I see this as a 4-off. Selection is what MUD lacks. This has no realistic drawbacks. I love the card.

Karn -> Not too bullish on Karn. It's a pimped out Grafted Skullcap. I'd rather have a 7/7 trample and close the game out for 4 mana

Noctalor
04-15-2018, 01:23 PM
So, this is the kind of Traxos list I would like to try


//Lands
4 [TMP] Ancient Tomb
4 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
4 [EXO] City of Traitors
1 [ISD] Ghost Quarter
1 [KLD] Inventors' Fair
1 [LEG] Karakas
4 [ATQ] Mishra's Factory
4 [TMP] Wasteland

//Spells
2 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [MRD] Chalice of the Void
1 [KLD] Fleetwheel Cruiser
4 [ULG] Grim Monolith
4 [DOM] Karn, Scion of Urza
3 [MRD] Lightning Greaves
3 [NEM] Tangle Wire
4 [DST] Trinisphere

//Creatures
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
4 [UDS] Metalworker
4 [DOM] Traxos, Scourge of Kroog


The idea is to play on a lower curve and to try to win as fast as possible.

Karn should be pretty good in this deck just as token generator, -2 twice is pretty good and likely to spawn at least 4/4s or 5/5s.
Traxos is likely to have no real drawback here, we dont really need tools to untap him, we are likely to just naturally have enough artifacts to just keep him swinging.
both lightning greaves and tangle wire are here to make our clock as reliable as possible, greaves should be super good in this list, we are likely to have a creature to play, and both haste and shroud is relevant.
Not sure about BS as the top of the curve, both it and fleetwheel may underperform.

Thoughts?

malfie13
04-15-2018, 09:48 PM
On another note, I've been struggling to beat RG lands.
G1, 2 or ever? I have a lot of experience playing both as and vs lands. I may be able to help.

malfie13
04-15-2018, 09:52 PM
I am the absolute last person who would ever be Grudge someone for trying something slightly different then an establish deck. and I see where you're going and I definitely like it, but what I don't see is what the Tangled wires add. Why not some other prison peice, like a sphere or thorn, or a different threat or removal? Dunno. Thought and playtesting seem necessary.

Are any of us betting on a drs banning incoming, and what changes if it happens?

darkgh0st
04-15-2018, 10:53 PM
G1, 2 or ever? I have a lot of experience playing both as and vs lands. I may be able to help.

Thanks in advance. I used to be able to beat RG lands before I stopped playing MUD 2 years ago. I used 4 Needles and 2 Bridges in the SB, and Chalice on 2. They were running more Ports then and little to no Ghost Quarters back then. I haven't taken a single game playing 3 different people on RG lands since I picked up MUD. I would find Needle, name Wasteland, then opponent would go plan B with Ghost Quarter, which is one of the new additions that came as a surprise, and lock me out. I would have Leyline, but opponents would either have the Grip or beat me with Tracker and lock me out with the LD they draw anyways.

Stuart
04-16-2018, 09:31 AM
Thanks in advance. I used to be able to beat RG lands before I stopped playing MUD 2 years ago. I used 4 Needles and 2 Bridges in the SB, and Chalice on 2. They were running more Ports then and little to no Ghost Quarters back then. I haven't taken a single game playing 3 different people on RG lands since I picked up MUD. I would find Needle, name Wasteland, then opponent would go plan B with Ghost Quarter, which is one of the new additions that came as a surprise, and lock me out. I would have Leyline, but opponents would either have the Grip or beat me with Tracker and lock me out with the LD they draw anyways.

This has been my experience as well. We could just wait out the Ports (or Tsabo’s Web them), but as Wastelands 5-8, GQ is pretty brutal.

Spyglass hugely helpful, though, as a Needle that’s much more likely to bail you out of what your opponent actually has.

If Lands is big locally, I’d recommend constructing your board with it in mind. I’m in the same situation, and I board in 2 Coercive Portal, 2 Crucible, 2 Spyglass (in addition to 2 in the main), 2 Tsabo’s Web, and 3 Tormod’s Crypt. Basically you wind up as shitty Stax in games 2 and 3, which feels decent to me.

Jorruk
04-17-2018, 03:36 AM
I totally agree with you, it is one of our toughest MU. Usually my main goal is to cast a chalice x = 2 as soon as possible to limit the recursive wasteland/GQ.
Sometimes I play the "fun" sideboard that takes a lot of our sideboard card : 4 leyline of the void, 3 helm of obedience + 1 urborg in the main instead of a vesuva. For now it has been pretty good against Lands and Show and tell (just helms) it's always fun to take a grisel/emrakul from your opponent's deck.

Anyway as it was previously mentionned, the best cards for the MU are sorcerous spyglasses, chalice on 2, grave hate. I'm not playing crucible in the SD in the current meta filled of DRS, and against lands usually they are already eating two of your lands per turn so crucible is not enough.

Silverflame
04-18-2018, 06:19 PM
I am the absolute last person who would ever be Grudge someone for trying something slightly different then an establish deck. and I see where you're going and I definitely like it, but what I don't see is what the Tangled wires add. Why not some other prison peice, like a sphere or thorn, or a different threat or removal? Dunno. Thought and playtesting seem necessary.

Agreed, it's a nombo with Traxos and trinisphere. Maybe thorn instead.

Jorruk
04-19-2018, 07:14 AM
Has anyone thought of the new Karn as a 1 of instead of coercive portal / staff / bottled cloister in the classic shell ?
I think it's not a bad idea as it's harder to deal with it compared to an artifact and it's more versatile. It can pop tokens against a liliana deck / diabolic edict and lets you virtually draw more cards.

Silverflame
04-19-2018, 02:12 PM
Has anyone think of the new Karn as a 1 of instead of coercive portal / staff / bottled cloister in the classic shell ?
I think it's not a bad idea as it's harder to deal with it compared to an artifact and it's more versatile. It can pop tokens against a liliana deck / diabolic edict and lets you virtually draw more cards.

I'm gonna test 2-3 karns as it is better as a multiple, the second ability can get cards exiled with other karns. Not sure what else to cut for it, though.

Jorruk
04-20-2018, 03:33 AM
I'm gonna test 2-3 karns as it is better as a multiple, the second ability can get cards exiled with other karns. Not sure what else to cut for it, though.

I think all our 4 mana drop are mandatory except coercive portal, we can't really cut lodestone golem. I don't know your list but personnaly I run 3 kuldotha, as I am convinced the time we have 3 artifacts on board we would have drawn a kuldotha forgemaster. I usually dislike sacrificing trinisphere/chalice/thorn so I don't sacrifice Kuldotha very quickly. Except some exceptions like when you have a metalworker and 3+ artifact in hand and you are quite sure you can go for staff combo kill.
Maybe I will also try to run 2-3 karn just for testing and then I will see what's the best.

On another subjet, is anyone from Europe ?
I will go to the eternal weekend in Paris at the beginning of May. I hope to do somethings great as I already have two byes :)

Silverflame
04-20-2018, 06:27 PM
I think all our 4 mana drop are mandatory except coercive portal, we can't really cut lodestone golem. I don't know your list but personnaly I run 3 kuldotha, as I am convinced the time we have 3 artifacts on board we would have drawn a kuldotha forgemaster. I usually dislike sacrificing trinisphere/chalice/thorn so I don't sacrifice Kuldotha very quickly. Except some exceptions like when you have a metalworker and 3+ artifact in hand and you are quite sure you can go for staff combo kill.
Maybe I will also try to run 2-3 karn just for testing and then I will see what's the best.

my list is this one (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23388-Deck-MUD-(Metalworker)&p=1040152&viewfull=1#post1040152).
I already shaved everything I don't wanna see in multiples. So basically it would be Portal and Trawler, that are the most situational cards.



I will go to the eternal weekend in Paris at the beginning of May.
Good luck there, wish you do well :)

Jorruk
04-23-2018, 04:22 AM
Yeah I totally agree with you.
My list (below) is very similar to yours. The main difference is that I don't run Spyglasses MD but instead thorn of amethyst. I enjoyed the 2 lists but with a metagame filled of Delver & 4c control (or at least the DRS - Ponder - BS - FoW shell) I really enjoyed these cards. Of course a well placed wasteland can destroy us but I hope to get a quick grim monolith in those MU.

On another topic I have started to fill a "result sheet" that allows me to keep statistics with different MU. It is only recent so for now it doesn't say a lot but you can take a look here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iE-pnBJnIi0vXjUt6IXazmCPpPG8hatbbbuQPuUxEtE/edit?usp=sharing) if you want. I can also send an excel file by private message if needed.

List :


// MAIN DECK (60)
// Arpenteurs (2)
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
// Créatures (19)
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Steel Hellkite
3 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
2 Walking Ballista
1 Blightsteel Colossus
// Sorts (15)
1 Coercive Portal
1 Staff of Domination
1 Trinisphere
2 Lightning Greaves
4 Grim Monolith
2 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Chalice of the Void
// Terrains (24)
2 Vesuva
4 Cloudpost
3 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Wasteland
4 Glimmerpost
3 Cavern of Souls
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Inventor's Fair
// SIDE DECK (15)
SB: 1 Duplicant
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 1 Orbs of Warding
SB: 1 Coercive Portal
SB: 1 Trinisphere
SB: 3 Sorcerous Spyglass
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Warping Wail

malfie13
04-25-2018, 06:24 PM
I am defoiling my MUD list. I have had these cards a long time, and they've gained a lot of equity. I have currently got all 71 cards from the deck and the extended sb up on FB high end, and etc. I will also include a list here. PM me or message me on FB if you are interested. Thanks, Alex. PS: I AM NOT QUITTING MUD. The deck is my baby, and I love it waaaaaay too much for that. Lol.

This is a link to the list of cards, itself: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2002171326477468&set=pcb.2006360856350693&type=3&theater&ifg=1

Silverflame
04-25-2018, 10:15 PM
Yeah I totally agree with you.
My list (below) is very similar to yours. The main difference is that I don't run Spyglasses MD but instead thorn of amethyst. I enjoyed the 2 lists but with a metagame filled of Delver & 4c control (or at least the DRS - Ponder - BS - FoW shell) I really enjoyed these cards. Of course a well placed wasteland can destroy us but I hope to get a quick grim monolith in those MU.

On another topic I have started to fill a "result sheet" that allows me to keep statistics with different MU. It is only recent so for now it doesn't say a lot but you can take a look here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iE-pnBJnIi0vXjUt6IXazmCPpPG8hatbbbuQPuUxEtE/edit?usp=sharing) if you want. I can also send an excel file by private message if needed.


I see what you mean, my list is geared towards brazillian meta, that is usually filled with midrange decks. RUG and BUG delver are being less used here in favor of grixis, so spyglass helps me against a wider range of popular decks (it's mostly a dead card only against Burn).
I think the sheet may be very helpful on deciding how to sideboard, but it looks hard to maintain. I believe Airwave have a friend that kept one like that.

Manroe
04-26-2018, 12:23 AM
I am defoiling my MUD list. I have had these cards a long time, and they've gained a lot of equity. I have currently got all 71 cards from the deck and the extended sb up on FB high end, and etc. I will also include a list here. PM me or message me on FB if you are interested. Thanks, Alex. PS: I AM NOT QUITTING MUD. The deck is my baby, and I love it waaaaaay too much for that. Lol.

This is a link to the list of cards, itself: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2002171326477468&set=pcb.2006360856350693&type=3&theater&ifg=1

This is a long shot but are you interested in foil BUG shit?

cin
04-26-2018, 02:17 AM
Hi,

I have seen decks that has 4x darksteel citadels in it, is it really good having d.steel citadels on the deck?

thanks!

Jorruk
04-26-2018, 04:02 AM
I see what you mean, my list is geared towards brazillian meta, that is usually filled with midrange decks. RUG and BUG delver are being less used here in favor of grixis, so spyglass helps me against a wider range of popular decks (it's mostly a dead card only against Burn).
I think the sheet may be very helpful on deciding how to sideboard, but it looks hard to maintain. I believe Airwave have a friend that kept one like that.

Actually it is quite fast as everything is automatized. About the sideboard cards : I don't keep a real history of it as I usually don't hesitate for long to what cards I should side in/out.
The main interest is to know what are your "auto win" MU and what are your worst MU in order to get some modifications on your SB to gain a few win %.
I will try to keep a record of sideboard history so if anyone is interested we can share thoughts on it.


cin
I have seen decks that has 4x darksteel citadels in it, is it really good having d.steel citadels on the deck
thanks!


I don't think the deck can allow itself to have lands producing only 1 mana without any supplementary effects. The ones we have currently are either
- cavern against FOW-daze MU
- Glimmerpost to boost cloudpost
- inventor's fair as a tutor
- wasteland as a mana denial
(- thespian stage as a utility land)
I don't want to cut any of these to get indestructible, artifact lands. The upside of an early kuldotha is just too risky. You can't lose you lands + possible creatures just for an artifact that can eat a Liliana - edict - StP etc

Airwave
04-26-2018, 05:58 AM
I see what you mean, my list is geared towards brazillian meta, that is usually filled with midrange decks. RUG and BUG delver are being less used here in favor of grixis, so spyglass helps me against a wider range of popular decks (it's mostly a dead card only against Burn).
I think the sheet may be very helpful on deciding how to sideboard, but it looks hard to maintain. I believe Airwave have a friend that kept one like that.

I'm still here, lists are what outdated though, I've made trips to Big Eldrazi and Men of Steel but I'll always come back to MUD of course :)
Sideboard guide is found on p. 138 of this thread.

I'm not actually sure which direction to go with MUD, more control or more aggro, I sure hope the new sphere won't see much play, that will hurt Cloudpost strategies a lot :eyebrow:

malfie13
04-26-2018, 08:13 AM
Nope. Not interested in more foils. Im defoiling and never foiling a deck again, please.

Jorruk
04-26-2018, 08:36 AM
Nope. Not interested in more foils. Im defoiling and never foiling a deck again, please.

Noooo :p
I'm also a foiled MUD deck player. Although I only have 1 foiled grim monolith, the 3 Grim and 4 metalworker are altered for budget reasons. I am very proud of my metalworkers though (I will put a photo of theses altered cards this evening if asked)
Obviously I don't own any foiled city of traitors ...

@ Airwave
I personnaly prefer the more control-ish deck as you have bigger threat than usual players, and if they can't cast any spells they will not be able to remove it anyway.

I also have a question about your thoughts between steel hellkite and sundering titan, steel is very good against delver and non flyer deck but almost worthless against any strix deck. Whereas sundering titan is very nice against all greedy decks. What are you usually prefering ?

darkgh0st
04-26-2018, 08:46 AM
Nope. Not interested in more foils. Im defoiling and never foiling a deck again, please.

I was planning on foiling MUD in the future, as I dont have the cash to burn right now. Would have loved to inherit your foil MUD stuff. :( May I ask why you are defoiling?


@Airwave: I've gone from MUD to Stax, Eldrazi, big and small, Thalia Stompy, and gone back to MUD. Its just such a classic deck. We all meet again here, lol.


I'm running Darksteel Citadels right now as my meta is Lands heavy. But also running a very modified version to address that specific meta problem (more controlling list). I'll report here after my games on Friday.

Jorruk
04-26-2018, 09:46 AM
I'm running Darksteel Citadels right now as my meta is Lands heavy. But also running a very modified version to address that specific meta problem (more controlling list). I'll report here after my games on Friday.

I definitely look forward to your report and your list. If you have managed to get a deck surviving lands MU and still pretty explosive I may be in love with your deck :tongue:

Airwave
04-26-2018, 01:24 PM
Noooo :p
I'm also a foiled MUD deck player. Although I only have 1 foiled grim monolith, the 3 Grim and 4 metalworker are altered for budget reasons. I am very proud of my metalworkers though (I will put a photo of theses altered cards this evening if asked)
Obviously I don't own any foiled city of traitors ...

@ Airwave
I personnaly prefer the more control-ish deck as you have bigger threat than usual players, and if they can't cast any spells they will not be able to remove it anyway.

I also have a question about your thoughts between steel hellkite and sundering titan, steel is very good against delver and non flyer deck but almost worthless against any strix deck. Whereas sundering titan is very nice against all greedy decks. What are you usually prefering ?

I prefer Steel Hellkite these days, Sundering Titan is crucial in matchups where threads are continuously removed with Sword/Terminus or any other removals. But I hardly see any swords anymore, except in Death and Taxes. Miracles sees less play than in the past too.

Also, in 9 out of 10 cases I forgemaster for either Blightsteel (for the kill) or Platinum (for survival) and Steel Hellkite is more easy to cast than Sundering Titan.

In the control shell I mostly play none of the above at all and go for Karn and Ugin (+Bridge).

malfie13
04-26-2018, 10:11 PM
Foiling was an achievement i worked towards for a long time. It wound up building a lot of equity. Many of my buddies actually tried to talk me out of defoiling, but many more agree that if i was going to, now seemed like the time. Im still playing mud, tho. So im going to spend my time looking over actual strategy questions next chance i get. I wanna play at scg con in June so I've got to be ready

malfie13
04-26-2018, 10:14 PM
I'm still here, lists are what outdated though, I've made trips to Big Eldrazi and Men of Steel but I'll always come back to MUD of course :)
Sideboard guide is found on p. 138 of this thread.

I'm not actually sure which direction to go with MUD, more control or more aggro, I sure hope the new sphere won't see much play, that will hurt Cloudpost strategies a lot :eyebrow:

I hear that. I feel like sphere is going to be in a lot of fairer decks in the sb to deal with storm and etc. It will cause collateral damage to us as well tho. Gotta see what comes in the first couple of large legacy events.

bruizar
04-27-2018, 02:29 AM
Calling all colorless fighters out there, Zhalfirin Void seems like the real deal. Really want to bring this card to your attention once more as it fixes one of the bigger problems of the deck.

Jorruk
04-27-2018, 04:19 AM
Calling all colorless fighters out there, Zhalfirin Void seems like the real deal. Really want to bring this card to your attention once more as it fixes one of the bigger problems of the deck.

It was already mentionned a few pages before. I am not personnaly sure about this land. Of course the deck is missing tools for cantrips but I am not sure we can afford this type of land. I prefer by far wasteland, cavern of souls or inventor's fair. I am more inclined to add Karn for this purpose.

Airwave
04-27-2018, 05:20 AM
It was already mentionned a few pages before. I am not personnaly sure about this land. Of course the deck is missing tools for cantrips but I am not sure we can afford this type of land. I prefer by far wasteland, cavern of souls or inventor's fair. I am more inclined to add Karn for this purpose.

I really like the card, but I already like the options MUD has. The SOL-lands are a given, then Cloudpost-package, which is at least 10 cards I think. So 18 spots taken. Then there are both Wasteland and Cavern of Souls which are both really great. And then there's Inventors' Fair as well. So many choices.

Maybe there will be more room if the sphere will reck us and cloudpost-package is no longer an option. But I'll guess we'll need to re-evaluate our strategy completely then.

Jorruk
04-27-2018, 08:00 AM
I really like the card, but I already like the options MUD has. The SOL-lands are a given, then Cloudpost-package, which is at least 10 cards I think. So 18 spots taken. Then there are both Wasteland and Cavern of Souls which are both really great. And then there's Inventors' Fair as well. So many choices.

Maybe there will be more room if the sphere will reck us and cloudpost-package is no longer an option. But I'll guess we'll need to re-evaluate our strategy completely then.

Exactly my fears, I will tell you what is the current part of the sphere in the meta next week. Let's keep in mind that dominaria has just been released so either every player will try to test the card or they haven't been able yet to get their playset.
If we would have to abandon the cloudpost package I may be going to Eldrazi, or big eldrazi. But I guess it will be fine... usually people are more interested in the taxing effect where sphere of resistance is better. The land part is more for modern. I mean there are only cloudpost, eldrazi and us that are playing with sol lands (I don't count Show and Tell that is not very affected, same goes for dragon stompy). Eldrazi stompy is the only non-rogue deck and I am not sure that taking a slot in sideboard is a good idea for them. I think it may be better for them to prepare for MU against czech pile, lands, burn, delver and all its versions, D&T, elves, storm etc.

bruizar
04-27-2018, 10:27 AM
I really like the card, but I already like the options MUD has. The SOL-lands are a given, then Cloudpost-package, which is at least 10 cards I think. So 18 spots taken. Then there are both Wasteland and Cavern of Souls which are both really great. And then there's Inventors' Fair as well. So many choices.

Maybe there will be more room if the sphere will reck us and cloudpost-package is no longer an option. But I'll guess we'll need to re-evaluate our strategy completely then.

I see what you're saying. I dislike wasteland however, the land drops are too important imo.

Chronatog
04-27-2018, 12:30 PM
I see what you're saying. I dislike wasteland however, the land drops are too important imo.

I have the same opinion - Wasteland is not must have in the deck. I am in no way expert in MUD, however I think 4x Wasteland are less helpful in the deck than a bunch of sol lands with spheres, thorns, and chalices. And by playing more one-mana lands we just deprive ourselves from a better chance of putting a threat in play on the first turn.

I also think that land destruction strategy perhaps is better in STAXX-like decks as it fits there more organically.

bruizar
04-27-2018, 04:18 PM
I have the same opinion - Wasteland is not must have in the deck. I am in no way expert in MUD, however I think 4x Wasteland are less helpful in the deck than a bunch of sol lands with spheres, thorns, and chalices. And by playing more one-mana lands we just deprive ourselves from a better chance of putting a threat in play on the first turn.

I also think that land destruction strategy perhaps is better in STAXX-like decks as it fits there more organically.

The biggest reason why we lose is because of inconsistency and mulligans. There is now a land that helps fix this problem and does it without a mana cost and without a drawback besides being a non-basic land.

I know the land seems like it doesn't have a lot of impact but it addresses the one problem that causes mud players to lose most frequently: consistency. It should get tested at least.

Dice_Box
04-27-2018, 04:47 PM
Wasteland is a tempo play, but as the formats mana cost has gotten lower its impact has become less effective. I could see cutting them if you planed to add something yacht supported the game plan more. Inventor’s Fair perhaps.

AmokPL
04-27-2018, 05:44 PM
The biggest reason why we lose is because of inconsistency and mulligans. There is now a land that helps fix this problem and does it without a mana cost and without a drawback besides being a non-basic land.

I know the land seems like it doesn't have a lot of impact but it addresses the one problem that causes mud players to lose most frequently: consistency. It should get tested at least.

I wouldn't call possible sending of one card to the bottom "fixing the consistency".

darkgh0st
04-29-2018, 12:04 AM
Metalworker, Redesigned
by darkghost


Lands (24)
Spells (28)
Creatures (8)
Sideboard



4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Swamp
2 Inventor's Fair
3 Wasteland
1 Buried Ruin




4 Grim Monolith
3 Voltaic Key
3 Thran Dynamo
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
1 Orbs of Warding
1 Planar Bridge
1 Staff of Domination
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Karn, Scion of Urza
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon




4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker




4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Null Brooch
4 Warping Wail
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trading Post
1 Karn Liberated




R1 vs RG Lands
G1 - On the draw and kept my opener with an Ensnaring Bridge and 2 Darksteel Citadels, which were my first two land plays. I follow it up with Wasteland, Monolith into Metalworker since there was no danger of him comboing. He Punishing Fires the Metalworker on his turn. I play the a Thran Dynamo into an Ensnaring Bridge. Turn 5, I get an Ugin online, and Turn 6, I Chalice for 2, which prompted the scoop.
(1-0)

SB: -3 Trinisphere, -2 Karn, Scion of Urza, -1 Ugin
+4 Leyline of the Void, +1 Helm of Obedience, +1 Thought-Knot Seer

G2 - I Chaliced for 1 after his Exploration and get nothing but mana and swiftly die to a 20/20.
(1-1)

G3 - I opened up with a City of Traitors into a Grim Monolith without Leyline. He opened up with an Exploration and didn't break my City. I followed my side up with a Thran Dynamo, Chalice on 2, and Wasted his Depths. I cast a Metalworker turn 3, and he casted a Molten Vortex off a Grove upping me to 21. I wasted his Grove to see if I can save my Metalworker and it did, but the robot didn't do anything but attack for the next 4 turns as we draw-go. He was missing land drops and had to discard Sylvan Library on turn 7. I get a 2nd Chalice and think what to set it to. If I set it on 3, I lock myself out of Ensnaring Bridges even though I lock him out of Krosan Grips, so I decided to Chalice for 2 again. He gets a Tireless Tracker and starts to catch up with the land drops he missed. I get a Forgemaster and get to untap with it so I tapped for 8 mana, activated the Forgemaster (keeping him in play) for a Planar Bridge and fetch Ensnaring Bridge with the 8 floating. If I fetched for Ugin here, I was open to being comboed so I fetched Ugin the turn after and got to exile his Tracker, Vortex, Marit Lage, and 2 Explorations. Now he would need 2 Grips (for Bridge and Forgemaster) if he wants to attack with a 20/20. I draw a Thought-Knot Seer and play it, he didn't respond so I see a hand without a Grip. He scoops shortly after.
1-0 (2-1)


R2 vs ??? [Turbo Depths]
G1 - He opens with a Karakas and a Lotus Petal so I was confused what he was playing and decided to play defensive. I played an Ensnaring Bridge turn 2 instead of a Metalworker and he didn't look happy about it. He played Dark Depths on his 2nd turn. In the next couple of turns I played Staff of Domination, Inventor's Fair, and Forgemaster, while he assembled his combo and made a 20/20 that can't attack. Eventually I get a 2nd Ensnaring Bridge in and EoT activate Forgemaster for a Metalworker and went infinite on my turn. (3-1)

SB: -3 Trinisphere, -1 Orbs of Warding, +1 Thought-Knot Seer, +1 Null Brooch, +2 Warping Wail

G2 - I get 2 Bridges in again and thought I had him on a lockdown. He makes a 20/20 and plays Rites of Consumption. I stare at the Chalice in my hand and 4 open mana and move to Game 3.
(3-2)

SB: -2 Karn v2, -1 Ugin, +1 Orbs of Warding, +2 Warping Wail

G3 - I get a Chalice for 1 and 2 then an Ensnaring Bridge in. He misses a couple of land drops but my board only developed to 3 Metalworkers that were attacking his life total. He finds the combo (using Petal and ESG) and makes a 20/20 for defense sacrificing his only lands. We draw and go for a bit and he gets a Ghost Quarter and an Urborg, while my deck gave me 2 Wastelands. I used them both to lock him out, and I eventually drew an Ugin to exile his 20/20 and free my Metalworkers to attack.
2-0 (4-2)


R3 vs Storm
G1 - He mulled to 6, and I mulled to an uneventful 5 with 2 Karns and 3 lands but kept. He made me discard the 2 Karns in the first two turns. He doesn't go off for the next 3 turns, and I topdeck a Trinisphere. He goes for 4 goblins but I get a Forgemaster after 12 damage and he scoops. (5-2)

SB: -4 Bridge, -2 Karn v2, -2 Ugin, -1 Planar Bridge, -1 Dynamo, -2 Key (wrong sideout)
+4 Leyline, +4 Wail, +1 Helm, +1 Brooch, +1 TKS, +1 Bomb

G2 - I start with a Leyline. He rips off the Two Chalices in my hand. I get a 3rd Chalice a little late and a bunch of mana, realizing I took out my payoff cards. He eventually goes off. (5-3)

SB: -1 Dynamo, +1 Karn v2 (still wasn't able to think of a correct SB plan for this then. But now, I think that I would be siding out my higher payoff cards, so siding out the mana rocks and keeping Karn v2 in would make more sense.)

G3 - I couldn't have asked for a better hand vs Storm - Leyline, Tomb, Chalice, Trinisphere, TKS, another land, forgot the 7th card. I pretended I needed to think about my hand and said keep a little after. When I got to peak at his hand with TKS, he had 2 1CCs, 2 2CCs, and a Tendrils, so I took the Tendrils. TKS might have been a surprise for him, I don't know. He scoops before I could untap with a Null Brooch a couple turns after.
3-0 (6-3)


R4 vs Elves
G1 - I go first and open with a Chalice on 1. Then a Trinisphere. Then a Chalice on 2. He scoops.
(7-3)

SB: -2 Karn v2, -1 Orbs of Warding, -2 Trinisphere, +4 Warping Wail, +1 Ratchet Bomb (I feel like Trinisphere is a catch-up game on the draw)

G2 - I get a Bomb in and he has Rec Sage it. He casts a Symbiote and I responded with a Wail on his Sage. Then I Buried Ruin for the Bomb. The Bomb didn't make it in time.
(7-4)

SB: -2 Warping Wail, +2 Trinisphere

G3 - Turn 1, I play Wasteland and Key, he plays a Sentinel. Turn 2, I play Tomb and Trinisphere, and he looks heartbroken. He plays a Cradle and passes. Turn 3, I waste his Cradle, play another Wasteland and a Metalworker, he misses his land drop. Turn 4, I reveal 4 artifacts twice through Metalworker and Key, play Planar Bridge, Bridge for a Staff of Domination and go infinite.
4-0 (8-4)


The post lands are the most vulnerable part of the deck so I switched out of them. I opted for 4 basic lands because on top of the heavy Lands meta I am in, I've also been seeing Back to Basics in Miracles MD here. I don't think the power of basic lands should be overlooked.

@Wastelands - My opinion on Wastelands is that they are an important part of the deck because it can take advantage of situations where your opponents are struggling with lands and can serve as multiple time walks.

AmokPL
04-29-2018, 05:34 AM
Metalworker, Redesigned
by darkghost


Lands (24)
Spells (28)
Creatures (8)
Sideboard



4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Swamp
2 Inventor's Fair
3 Wasteland
1 Buried Ruin




4 Grim Monolith
3 Voltaic Key
3 Thran Dynamo
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
1 Orbs of Warding
1 Planar Bridge
1 Staff of Domination
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Karn, Scion of Urza
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon




4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker




4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Null Brooch
4 Warping Wail
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trading Post
1 Karn Liberated




R1 vs RG Lands
G1 - On the draw and kept my opener with an Ensnaring Bridge and 2 Darksteel Citadels, which were my first two land plays. I follow it up with Wasteland, Monolith into Metalworker since there was no danger of him comboing. He Punishing Fires the Metalworker on his turn. I play the a Thran Dynamo into an Ensnaring Bridge. Turn 5, I get an Ugin online, and Turn 6, I Chalice for 2, which prompted the scoop.
(1-0)

SB: -3 Trinisphere, -2 Karn, Scion of Urza, -1 Ugin
+4 Leyline of the Void, +1 Helm of Obedience, +1 Thought-Knot Seer

G2 - I Chaliced for 1 after his Exploration and get nothing but mana and swiftly die to a 20/20.
(1-1)

G3 - I opened up with a City of Traitors into a Grim Monolith without Leyline. He opened up with an Exploration and didn't break my City. I followed my side up with a Thran Dynamo, Chalice on 2, and Wasted his Depths. I cast a Metalworker turn 3, and he casted a Molten Vortex off a Grove upping me to 21. I wasted his Grove to see if I can save my Metalworker and it did, but the robot didn't do anything but attack for the next 4 turns as we draw-go. He was missing land drops and had to discard Sylvan Library on turn 7. I get a 2nd Chalice and think what to set it to. If I set it on 3, I lock myself out of Ensnaring Bridges even though I lock him out of Krosan Grips, so I decided to Chalice for 2 again. He gets a Tireless Tracker and starts to catch up with the land drops he missed. I get a Forgemaster and get to untap with it so I tapped for 8 mana, activated the Forgemaster (keeping him in play) for a Planar Bridge and fetch Ensnaring Bridge with the 8 floating. If I fetched for Ugin here, I was open to being comboed so I fetched Ugin the turn after and got to exile his Tracker, Vortex, Marit Lage, and 2 Explorations. Now he would need 2 Grips (for Bridge and Forgemaster) if he wants to attack with a 20/20. I draw a Thought-Knot Seer and play it, he didn't respond so I see a hand without a Grip. He scoops shortly after.
1-0 (2-1)


R2 vs ??? [Turbo Depths]
G1 - He opens with a Karakas and a Lotus Petal so I was confused what he was playing and decided to play defensive. I played an Ensnaring Bridge turn 2 instead of a Metalworker and he didn't look happy about it. He played Dark Depths on his 2nd turn. In the next couple of turns I played Staff of Domination, Inventor's Fair, and Forgemaster, while he assembled his combo and made a 20/20 that can't attack. Eventually I get a 2nd Ensnaring Bridge in and EoT activate Forgemaster for a Metalworker and went infinite on my turn. (3-1)

SB: -3 Trinisphere, -1 Orbs of Warding, +1 Thought-Knot Seer, +1 Null Brooch, +2 Warping Wail

G2 - I get 2 Bridges in again and thought I had him on a lockdown. He makes a 20/20 and plays Rites of Consumption. I stare at the Chalice in my hand and 4 open mana and move to Game 3.
(3-2)

SB: -2 Karn v2, -1 Ugin, +1 Orbs of Warding, +2 Warping Wail

G3 - I get a Chalice for 1 and 2 then an Ensnaring Bridge in. He misses a couple of land drops but my board only developed to 3 Metalworkers that were attacking his life total. He finds the combo (using Petal and ESG) and makes a 20/20 for defense sacrificing his only lands. We draw and go for a bit and he gets a Ghost Quarter and an Urborg, while my deck gave me 2 Wastelands. I used them both to lock him out, and I eventually drew an Ugin to exile his 20/20 and free my Metalworkers to attack.
2-0 (4-2)


R3 vs Storm
G1 - He mulled to 6, and I mulled to an uneventful 5 with 2 Karns and 3 lands but kept. He made me discard the 2 Karns in the first two turns. He doesn't go off for the next 3 turns, and I topdeck a Trinisphere. He goes for 4 goblins but I get a Forgemaster after 12 damage and he scoops. (5-2)

SB: -4 Bridge, -2 Karn v2, -2 Ugin, -1 Planar Bridge, -1 Dynamo, -2 Key (wrong sideout)
+4 Leyline, +4 Wail, +1 Helm, +1 Brooch, +1 TKS, +1 Bomb

G2 - I start with a Leyline. He rips off the Two Chalices in my hand. I get a 3rd Chalice a little late and a bunch of mana, realizing I took out my payoff cards. He eventually goes off. (5-3)

SB: -1 Dynamo, +1 Karn v2 (still wasn't able to think of a correct SB plan for this then. But now, I think that I would be siding out my higher payoff cards, so siding out the mana rocks and keeping Karn v2 in would make more sense.)

G3 - I couldn't have asked for a better hand vs Storm - Leyline, Tomb, Chalice, Trinisphere, TKS, another land, forgot the 7th card. I pretended I needed to think about my hand and said keep a little after. When I got to peak at his hand with TKS, he had 2 1CCs, 2 2CCs, and a Tendrils, so I took the Tendrils. TKS might have been a surprise for him, I don't know. He scoops before I could untap with a Null Brooch a couple turns after.
3-0 (6-3)


R4 vs Elves
G1 - I go first and open with a Chalice on 1. Then a Trinisphere. Then a Chalice on 2. He scoops.
(7-3)

SB: -2 Karn v2, -1 Orbs of Warding, -2 Trinisphere, +4 Warping Wail, +1 Ratchet Bomb (I feel like Trinisphere is a catch-up game on the draw)

G2 - I get a Bomb in and he has Rec Sage it. He casts a Symbiote and I responded with a Wail on his Sage. Then I Buried Ruin for the Bomb. The Bomb didn't make it in time.
(7-4)

SB: -2 Warping Wail, +2 Trinisphere

G3 - Turn 1, I play Wasteland and Key, he plays a Sentinel. Turn 2, I play Tomb and Trinisphere, and he looks heartbroken. He plays a Cradle and passes. Turn 3, I waste his Cradle, play another Wasteland and a Metalworker, he misses his land drop. Turn 4, I reveal 4 artifacts twice through Metalworker and Key, play Planar Bridge, Bridge for a Staff of Domination and go infinite.
4-0 (8-4)


The post lands are the most vulnerable part of the deck so I switched out of them. I opted for 4 basic lands because on top of the heavy Lands meta I am in, I've also been seeing Back to Basics in Miracles MD here. I don't think the power of basic lands should be overlooked.

@Wastelands - My opinion on Wastelands is that they are an important part of the deck because it can take advantage of situations where your opponents are struggling with lands and can serve as multiple time walks.

what an original list. Don't you think you are too low on threats though? Big Eldrazi plays mana stones+ keys but they have 8-10 huge monsters to spend the mana on. I mean I see the idea and I kinda like it but Revoker on Ugin and a medium size blocker and then what? How do you spent that infinite mana w/o Ballista? How is the new KARN?

NickDoom
04-29-2018, 08:28 PM
//Lands
4 [TMP] Ancient Tomb
4 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
4 [EXO] City of Traitors
1 [ISD] Ghost Quarter
1 [KLD] Inventors' Fair
1 [LEG] Karakas
4 [ATQ] Mishra's Factory
4 [TMP] Wasteland

//Spells
2 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [MRD] Chalice of the Void
1 [KLD] Fleetwheel Cruiser
4 [ULG] Grim Monolith
4 [DOM] Karn, Scion of Urza
3 [MRD] Lightning Greaves
3 [NEM] Tangle Wire
4 [DST] Trinisphere

//Creatures
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
4 [UDS] Metalworker
4 [DOM] Traxos, Scourge of Kroog




I play this list

Match 1 vs Miracles (2-1)

Match 2 vs BUG Delver (1-2)

Match 3 vs Blue Painter (0-2)

Match 4 vs Slivers (2-0)

Match 5 vs Landstill (2-0)

i try to change

2 Batterskull
1 Fleetwheel Cruiser

for

1-2 Voltaic Key
1-2 Crucible of Worlds

some people play Back To Basics or play more wastelands

AmokPL
04-30-2018, 09:42 AM
I play this list

Match 1 vs Miracles (2-1)

Match 2 vs BUG Delver (1-2)

Match 3 vs Blue Painter (0-2)

Match 4 vs Slivers (2-0)

Match 5 vs Landstill (2-0)

i try to change

2 Batterskull
1 Fleetwheel Cruiser

for

1-2 Voltaic Key
1-2 Crucible of Worlds

some people play Back To Basics or play more wastelands

maybe Voltaic Servant - comes t1 untaps Traxxos and Monolith, early bloker can carry Batterskull and is a Construct :) I'll try this list but will add some Ballistas

NickDoom
04-30-2018, 11:48 AM
maybe Voltaic Servant - comes t1 untaps Traxxos and Monolith, early bloker can carry Batterskull and is a Construct :) I'll try this list but will add some Ballistas

Need 1 or 2 crucible for recycle inventor's fair and wastelands

darkgh0st
04-30-2018, 12:22 PM
Don't you think you are too low on threats though? Big Eldrazi plays mana stones+ keys but they have 8-10 huge monsters to spend the mana on.
The more higher CCs the deck has, the more inconsistent the deck becomes, so I wanted to stay mid-range. Besides, I want to play MUD, not Big Eldrazi. You may be right about having a low number of threat count. This list is my first draft into a redesigned MUD deck and that was the first tournament I took it to.


Revoker on Ugin and a medium size blocker and then what?
I see your point here too, 2 Revokers (on Ugin and Staff) can shut down the primary win cons. When I designed it, I wanted to make something that would survive and beat a heavy Lands metagame. My LGS has gone from 4 DnT decks to non-existent so I didn't have that deck in mind. There will be adjustments for sure.


How do you spent that infinite mana w/o Ballista?
When you have infinite mana, infinite life, draw, tap, and untap, people normally concede to it. If they don't, I guess you just spam the board until they decide to concede. Ballista is a win-more in that combo situation.


How is the new KARN?
He didn't get to see much action during the tournament, but in my testing, he's been pretty good. Especially in this deck where he can hide behind a bridge, develop your hand or the board, then you pop the bridge and attack for lethal. You also get scenarios with him making a 3/3 turn 1 or 2 that grows to 5+ easily. Also, Planeswalkers are my current answer vs 4 color control.

cin
05-01-2018, 12:26 AM
Hi guys.

Kindly also join this fb group
https://web.facebook.com/groups/178310812825268/

You can also post pics of your decks and decklists there.

Its open for us MUD players.


Thanks!

Captain Hammer
05-02-2018, 12:52 PM
So, this is the kind of Traxos list I would like to try


//Lands
4 [TMP] Ancient Tomb
4 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
4 [EXO] City of Traitors
1 [ISD] Ghost Quarter
1 [KLD] Inventors' Fair
1 [LEG] Karakas
4 [ATQ] Mishra's Factory
4 [TMP] Wasteland

//Spells
2 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [MRD] Chalice of the Void
1 [KLD] Fleetwheel Cruiser
4 [ULG] Grim Monolith
4 [DOM] Karn, Scion of Urza
3 [MRD] Lightning Greaves
3 [NEM] Tangle Wire
4 [DST] Trinisphere

//Creatures
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
4 [UDS] Metalworker
4 [DOM] Traxos, Scourge of Kroog


The idea is to play on a lower curve and to try to win as fast as possible.

Karn should be pretty good in this deck just as token generator, -2 twice is pretty good and likely to spawn at least 4/4s or 5/5s.
Traxos is likely to have no real drawback here, we dont really need tools to untap him, we are likely to just naturally have enough artifacts to just keep him swinging.
both lightning greaves and tangle wire are here to make our clock as reliable as possible, greaves should be super good in this list, we are likely to have a creature to play, and both haste and shroud is relevant.
Not sure about BS as the top of the curve, both it and fleetwheel may underperform.

Thoughts?

I love everything about this list except Fleetwheel Crusier. Seems like a pointless card when they are so many better options. I would rather play Wurmcoil Engine or Precursor Golem or another lockpiece in that slot.

Tangle Wire also seems iffy. There’s better (more reliable and consistent) lock pieces no?

Noctalor
05-02-2018, 01:21 PM
I love everything about this list except Fleetwheel Crusier. Seems like a pointless card when they are so many better options. I would rather play Wurmcoil Engine or Precursor Golem or another lockpiece in that slot.

Tangle Wire also seems iffy. There’s better (more reliable and consistent) lock pieces no?

Hey, I'll try to explain most of the cards
The idea is to go aggro as hard as possible, not sure if it's going to work with this list, but fleetweel is pretty good if we are already aggroing, 1 traxos hit and a fetch means that the next hit is lethal if we have a fleetweel, which is likely to be unexpected.
Also, crew is rather easy to obtain with 8 manlands, which i added to the list, wurmcoil would probably take batterskull's place, we dont really want to go heavy on costs ideally.
Wire is a test, the idea is that with wire we have a chence to get a bunch of free hits/karn activations, not sure if it's going to work.

Im currently working more on staxx, had the chance to play karn and it is absolutely insane, in this MUD kard is likely ot be our best aggro tool, the token spam is often good enough to win the board against anything.
At the moment this is the list im running tho

// 60 Maindeck
// 19 Artifact
3 Fleetwheel Cruiser
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
3 Lightning Greaves
3 Trinisphere
2 Tangle Wire

// 15 Creature
4 Traxos, Scourge of Kroog
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
3 Walking Ballista

// 22 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mutavault
1 Karakas
4 Grasping Dunes
1 Inventors' Fair

// 4 Planeswalker
4 Karn, Scion of Urza


// 15 Sideboard
// 13 Artifact
SB: 3 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 2 Sorcerous Spyglass
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb

// 2 Creature
SB: 2 Spellskite


The main changes are
3x balista, 4x dunes, balista is good so it doesnt really need explainations, dunes is kinda bad so it does, both cards are here because we absolutely need to have an easy out to baleful strix, the card hits us super hard if we dont play removals, dunes is actually better than cavern in my opinion here for this reason, also, ballista happens to be pretty good at crewing fleetwheel.

8x manland, to have an easy way to crew out fleetwheels, also, all we really want is to hit as hard as we can, so manlands are only going to help

SB is still kinda random, so i can't really say much about that.

In the few tests i got i noticed that maverik is a nightmare (we are likely to fold to knight unless we have karn), combo is a bye, moon stompy is pretty hard if not unwinnable, we have a good shot against blue decks regardless of colors

Jorruk
05-03-2018, 03:52 AM
I really like your deck, it is a nice change from the classical build.

On another topic, my local metagame doesn't have any dragon stompy deck. Does anyone play against this deck often ? I am quite sure it is a very hard MU for us with blood moons and MD artifact destruction.

Jorruk
05-07-2018, 04:06 PM
Hello everyone
Just a quick post about the eternal weekend. I was a bit disappointed by the attendance : only 300 people showed up. Maybe because of the strikes currently in France (as usual ...) but I would have thought people would have been more interested as GP Birmingham is just next week.
Anyway I didn't performed well finishing at 5-4 with 2 byes... haha
A report will be posted as soon as I come back from the US.
I was a bit unlucky with my draws and the toss. I also made the biggest misplay I have never made x)

Interestingly a former Mud player finished second with Dragon stompy

malfie13
05-13-2018, 07:22 AM
How have people running numerous traxos liking it? Im still very leary about running a pack of the same legendary in lieu of a diverse threat set. I'm currently trying karn the newer out instead of the bottled cloister, and added ab1x traxos. I havent play tested in a live tournament yet tho.

malfie13
05-13-2018, 07:34 AM
Also, been giving back to basics some more thought. Has anyone ever tried running deserted temple?

bobomb
05-15-2018, 02:06 PM
Also, been giving back to basics some more thought. Has anyone ever tried running deserted temple?

What's the play you have in mind with deserted temple?

Tap sol land -> use 1 mana, tap deserted temple, untap sol land -> tap sol land = 3 mana.

or

Tap sol land -> tap any other land = 3 mana.

Though I guess it could help late game with several cloudposts in play. Voltaic key might be better overall.... not sure.

Runninonwater
05-17-2018, 08:13 AM
Hello everyone!

I've been out of the magic scene for too long but i got a new decklist that im thinking of building.
Been also reading a tiny bit on this forum this morning and took some inspirations from you guys so, no cred to me really.

Artifact (20)
4x Chalice of the Void
1x Crucible of Worlds
4x Grim Monolith
1x Heart of Kiran
4x Mox Diamond
1x Mox Opal
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Batterskull
2x Trinisphere
1x Voltaic Key

Land (24)
4x Ancient Tomb
1x Buried Ruin
4x City of Traitors
3x Darksteel Citadel
4x Grasping Dunes
1x Karakas
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland


Creature (12)
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Metalworker
4x Traxos, Scourge of Kroog

Planeswalker (4)
4x Karn, Scion of Urza

Im thinking, with the cheaper artifacts and inclusion of Darksteel Citadel (we need lands) that it can powerup Karns construct tokens. It also lets us power out our cards easier, but i can see cutting them.
I added Wasteland at the moment and a crucible to synergies with the Moxes but as Dice_Box , its more of a tempo play and apparently the format is faster so i can see me cutting them for Cavern of Souls.
The Moxes can also work as a cheaper way to untap Traxos, also increases the likelihood to have 2 mana on turn 1
Also, the Sphere can hamper the slower but bigger Locus Manabase so i thought this would be a better suited one... atleast im willing to try it out.
Heart of Kiran seems spicy and can be quite the force with that turn 1 into karn turn 2, being able to attack and block on our turn two.
Grasping Dunes was added because i saw someone mentioning Baleful strix and it can certainly kill other pesky 1/1s we might face.

I really want to add a Fleet Wheel Cruiser and a Batterskull.
I also think i may be missing atleast a Trinisphere mainboard.

The landcount is... not too high, maybe even too low to support Mox Diamond but i haven't been working on it for too long.

What do you guys think?

Thank you in advance!


EDIT: I was only really planning to get 1 or 2 Karn but wow, i goldfished a bit and it can just snowball! The list has 4 and i guess i should get 4, he seems awesome.
EDIT2: I remvoed 2 Dynamos for 1 Greaves and 1 Batterskull

Silverflame
05-17-2018, 10:31 AM
Hello everyone!

I've been out of the magic scene for too long but i got a new decklist that im thinking of building.
Been also reading a tiny bit on this forum this morning and took some inspirations from you guys so, no cred to me really.

Artifact (20)
4x Chalice of the Void
1x Crucible of Worlds
4x Grim Monolith
1x Heart of Kiran
4x Mox Diamond
1x Mox Opal
2x Thran Dynamo
2x Trinisphere
1x Voltaic Key

Land (24)
4x Ancient Tomb
1x Buried Ruin
4x City of Traitors
3x Darksteel Citadel
4x Grasping Dunes
1x Karakas
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland


Creature (12)
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Metalworker
4x Traxos, Scourge of Kroog

Planeswalker (4)
4x Karn, Scion of Urza

Im thinking, with the cheaper artifacts and inclusion of Darksteel Citadel (we need lands) that it can powerup Karns construct tokens. It also lets us power out our cards easier, but i can see cutting them.
I added Wasteland at the moment and a crucible to synergies with the Moxes but as Dice_Box , its more of a tempo play and apparently the format is faster so i can see me cutting them for Cavern of Souls.
The Moxes can also work as a cheaper way to untap Traxos, also increases the likelihood to have 2 mana on turn 1
Also, the Sphere can hamper the slower but bigger Locus Manabase so i thought this would be a better suited one... atleast im willing to try it out.
For backup i added a Thran Dynamo and a Voltaic Key as well.
Heart of Kiran seems spicy and can be quite the force with that turn 1 into karn turn 2, being able to attack and block on our turn two.
Grasping Dunes was added because i saw someone mentioning Baleful strix and it can certainly kill other pesky 1/1s we might face.

I really want to add a Fleet Wheel Cruiser and a Batterskull.
I also think i may be missing atleast a Trinisphere mainboard.

The landcount is... not too high, maybe even too low to support Mox Diamond but i haven't been working on it for too long.

What do you guys think?

Thank you in advance!


EDIT: I was only really planning to get 1 or 2 Karn but wow, i goldfished a bit and it can just snowball! The list has 4 and i guess i should get 4, he seems awesome.

I like your list.
I believe you could cut the dynamos, your highest costing card is 4. I'd go for 1 boots, 1 batterskull. 2 Trini has been good for me, it don't think you need to go up on them.

Runninonwater
05-17-2018, 11:18 AM
I like your list.
I believe you could cut the dynamos, your highest costing card is 4. I'd go for 1 boots, 1 batterskull. 2 Trini has been good for me, it don't think you need to go up on them.

Dynamos aren't there for the high manacurve, its more of a another "safer" form av mana producer (atleast thats what im thinking) but im gonna think about it!
Boots and a batterskull would be swell.
And thanks! Im still iffy about the one off Mox Opal, but i really like the Darksteel Citadels. We need our lands, it adds artifacts to the deck and improves Metalworker.

Silverflame
05-18-2018, 02:50 PM
Dynamos aren't there for the high manacurve, its more of a another "safer" form av mana producer (atleast thats what im thinking) but im gonna think about it!
Boots and a batterskull would be swell.
And thanks! Im still iffy about the one off Mox Opal, but i really like the Darksteel Citadels. We need our lands, it adds artifacts to the deck and improves Metalworker.
Metalworker seems a bit out of place for the same reason, not enough mana sinks for it, but I might be wrong. You could add 1-2 ballista for that, or cut em for some more disruption pieces (thorns, thought-knot) or more threats. You gotta close the game fast as you're cutting the lategame options. Also with artifact lands and no coils it's autoloss if the opponent cast a null rod.

Runninonwater
05-18-2018, 08:03 PM
Metalworker seems a bit out of place for the same reason, not enough mana sinks for it, but I might be wrong. You could add 1-2 ballista for that, or cut em for some more disruption pieces (thorns, thought-knot) or more threats. You gotta close the game fast as you're cutting the lategame options. Also with artifact lands and no coils it's autoloss if the opponent cast a null rod.

Hm, ok.

I forgot to update that i actually made the first switch that you sugested, changed the 2 Dynamos for Greaves and Batterskull. I goldfished for a bit and it was nice.
i feel metalworker is awesome for when you need those really explosive turns, but then again it could be win more.
Wouldn't Thorn slow me down way too much?

Im gonna see what i can cut for the Ballistas, otherwise i add a few to the sideboard, tho i feel that they would be awesome in the mainboard.

Removing 2-3 Darksteel Citadels for Cavern of Souls. I can also go down a Wasteland maybe?

Silverflame
05-18-2018, 09:59 PM
Hm, ok.

I forgot to update that i actually made the first switch that you sugested, changed the 2 Dynamos for Greaves and Batterskull. I goldfished for a bit and it was nice.
i feel metalworker is awesome for when you need those really explosive turns, but then again it could be win more.
Wouldn't Thorn slow me down way too much?

Im gonna see what i can cut for the Ballistas, otherwise i add a few to the sideboard, tho i feel that they would be awesome in the mainboard.

Removing 2-3 Darksteel Citadels for Cavern of Souls. I can also go down a Wasteland maybe?

You don't need 4 caverns as there are not too many creatures on the list to overlap, 2 should be enough. 1 inventor's fair could be nice to get the first traxos. Apart from that, it goes more from playtesting, kee p us posted :)

SB could go something like this:
2 ratchet bomb (for ensnaring bridge)
2 ballista
3 faerie macabre/tormod
4 thorn
2 spyglass (against painter, vial, etc)
2 warping wail

Runninonwater
05-19-2018, 08:34 AM
You don't need 4 caverns as there are not too many creatures on the list to overlap, 2 should be enough. 1 inventor's fair could be nice to get the first traxos. Apart from that, it goes more from playtesting, kee p us posted :)

SB could go something like this:
2 ratchet bomb (for ensnaring bridge)
2 ballista
3 faerie macabre/tormod
4 thorn
2 spyglass (against painter, vial, etc)
2 warping wail

Yes, that was my thought as well that i don't need 4, i switched for 1 Darksteel and 2 Caverns instead of 3 Darksteel. And its true, it could need inventor's fair.
Maybe even either cut 1 Wasteland or 1 Grasping Dunes for the Fair.

And yes, i hope i can testplay it.

Thanks for the sideboard tips!

BlackHawkX9
05-22-2018, 01:09 PM
What's the game plan and sideboard tech people are using against RG lands? They are such a versatile beast. Threats that need dealt with while still being concerned about the others. 1. Stage depths 20/20 token. 2. Loam wasteland lock. 3. Punishing fire engine. 4. Tireless tracker and krosan grip out of their board. . . All suggestions are helpful.

Jorruk
05-23-2018, 04:31 AM
What's the game plan and sideboard tech people are using against RG lands? They are such a versatile beast. Threats that need dealt with while still being concerned about the others. 1. Stage depths 20/20 token. 2. Loam wasteland lock. 3. Punishing fire engine. 4. Tireless tracker and krosan grip out of their board. . . All suggestions are helpful.

I personally try to put a chalice on 2 as soon as possible (I usually don't cast chalice for X = 1) if I don't have any gravehate. (typically G1 on the play)
The best situation is when they are tapped down and you have the possibility to fetch an emperion and directly equip greaves on it.
Concerning the sideboard plan : I am removing trinispheres and Ugin (they will make their token at the end of our turn anyway) and will take spyglasses and grave hate. I once lived in an area full of GR lands, so I tried Ankh of Mishra. It was very funny to watch land players almost killing themselves.
But yeah it is definitely a rough MU.

malfie13
05-23-2018, 09:23 AM
What's the game plan and sideboard tech people are using against RG lands? They are such a versatile beast. Threats that need dealt with while still being concerned about the others. 1. Stage depths 20/20 token. 2. Loam wasteland lock. 3. Punishing fire engine. 4. Tireless tracker and krosan grip out of their board. . . All suggestions are helpful.

Always a tough match. Agreed, chalice 2 is boss. Also, i run sb bridges, which are great. They can still draw into combo, so i also like to spyglass before chalice 2, if possible, or otherwise fetch a spyglass. Ironically, lage is black, so he, exploration, manabound, etc are all hit by ugin, which is usally a good ride behind a bridge. Also, i run a thespians stage which is occasionally relevant. And all their creatures are susceptible to ta0 down by staff. Also early thorns can mess with them.

malfie13
05-23-2018, 09:27 AM
It was already mentionned a few pages before. I am not personnaly sure about this land. Of course the deck is missing tools for cantrips but I am not sure we can afford this type of land. I prefer by far wasteland, cavern of souls or inventor's fair. I am more inclined to add Karn for this purpose.

Been testing with one karn and one of the new 7x7 monsters. Karn has been basic ok, in place of cloister or portal, but underwhelming. He does take over behind a bridge tho. I like the 7x7, tho. Thing is gross. May move a wurmcoil to sb and put a second one in its place. Trample is super real.

Jorruk
05-23-2018, 09:38 AM
Been testing with one karn and one of the new 7x7 monsters. Karn has been basic ok, in place of cloister or portal, but underwhelming. He does take over behind a bridge tho. I like the 7x7, tho. Thing is gross. May move a wurmcoil to sb and put a second one in its place. Trample is super real.

Aren't you afraid of strix (still 6 dmg ok) ?
I am quite surprised of keeping Ugin, I am almost always stuck with it in hand when playing against Lands. I use my grim monoliths preferably on wurmcoil, hellkite, kuldotha or ballista.
Also agreed on the staff - bridge plan. I don't always have a bridge in side. Against S&T I prefer replicant and spine but I understand the point.

malfie13
05-23-2018, 09:53 AM
Aren't you afraid of strix (still 6 dmg ok) ?
I am quite surprised of keeping Ugin, I am almost always stuck with it in hand when playing against Lands. I use my grim monoliths preferably on wurmcoil, hellkite, kuldotha or ballista.
Also agreed on the staff - bridge plan. I don't always have a bridge in side. Against S&T I prefer replicant and spine but I understand the point.

Yeah, duplicant is ok vs show, but if they are a good s and tell player, they dont show emrakul. Pushing through damage is fine with traxos, although strix is a pain. Ugin stays as a 1x post board vs lands for occasional blowouts and needing to win behind bridge. May also go back to a sb karn, liberated, which ive since taken out

Two other choice questions. Has anyone tried either phyrexian metamorph in flex slots or monkey cage in the sb? Ive been toying with the ideas. Both do interesting things in specific matches. I didnt know monkey cage existed until like last week.

Jorruk
05-23-2018, 10:22 AM
Yeah, duplicant is ok vs show, but if they are a good s and tell player, they dont show emrakul. Pushing through damage is fine with traxos, although strix is a pain. Ugin stays as a 1x post board vs lands for occasional blowouts and needing to win behind bridge. May also go back to a sb karn, liberated, which ive since taken out

Two other choice questions. Has anyone tried either phyrexian metamorph in flex slots or monkey cage in the sb? Ive been toying with the ideas. Both do interesting things in specific matches. I didnt know monkey cage existed until like last week.

Yup I agree on that too, but it's still a good fetchable artifact against a big creature.
I have tried monkey cage and ... i didn't really liked it. On the long run grisel will still win, and against Emrakul you just have better options (IMO).

Runninonwater
05-24-2018, 12:23 PM
@silverflame
I've started to acquire some of the cards and i picked up a Umezawa's Jitte. I thought it could be good as a 1 off in the main or sideboard, to take care of annoying creatures like Strix and it fastens the clock. Its pretty cool with Trample as well.
It also makes my Manlands better / a bigger threat.

darkgh0st
05-24-2018, 01:31 PM
Metalworker, Redesigned
by darkghost


Lands (24)
Spells (28)
Creatures (8)
Sideboard



4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Swamp
2 Inventor's Fair
3 Wasteland
1 Buried Ruin




4 Grim Monolith
3 Voltaic Key
3 Thran Dynamo
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
1 Orbs of Warding
1 Planar Bridge
1 Staff of Domination
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Karn, Scion of Urza
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon




4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker




4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Null Brooch
4 Warping Wail
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trading Post
1 Karn Liberated




Changes:
-1 Voltaic Key, +1 Karn Liberated (-1 SB)
+1 Thran Dynamo, +1 Crucible of Worlds (-1 SB)
SB +2 Wurmcoil Engine - currently taking the Karn v1 and Crucible slot.

Games from May 11 FNM:

2-0 vs RG Lands
2-1 vs Grixis Delver
2-1 vs RG Lands

GP Toronto Side Events:

T1:
2-0 vs Tin Fins
2-0 vs RG Lands
2-1 vs BUG Delver

T2:
2-0 vs Deadguy Ale
2-1 vs RG Lands
1-2 vs BUG Leovold (stopped a 12 win streak. Unfortunate as he had Null Rods both G2 and 3.)

T3:
0-2 vs BUG Food Chain (he had the T4 both games and I couldn't interact)
2-0 vs Moon and Taxes
1-2 vs Grixis Delver

At this point, I made some changes:
-1 Darsteel Citadel
+1 Cavern of Souls
-1 Trinisphere
-1 Ugin
+2 Sorcerous Spyglass

SB:
-1 Null Brooch (too slow)
-1 Trading Post (too slow, barely saw play)
-1 Warping Wail (had too many)
+1 Thought-Knot Seer
+1 Dismember
+1 Sorcerous Spyglass

T4:
2-0 vs BUG Leovold (rematch of tourney 2)
2-1 vs Bant Deathblade
ID vs Sneak and Show (friend)

T5:
2-1 vs Nic Fit (Teeg didn't ended up being a problem, but my opponent didn't really know how to play the match-up)
2-1 vs RG Lands
2-0 vs Omni-Sneak and Show

T6:
2-1 vs Reanimator
0-2 vs Grixis Delver (w/Stifle, stopped a 6 win streak)
2-1 vs Colorless Eldrazi

Total for the event: 13-4-1 (28-15)
So far: 20-4-1 (42-21)

There's a weak spot against Grixis Delver, which needs to be worked on.

malfie13
05-26-2018, 04:46 PM
Grixis delver on the draw is super annoying, as it is for relatively everyone. I do and don't love the idea of umezawa jitte. I think that its great in some matches, where creatures are an issue. Ive been sbing razormane masticore, which cold stops a gurmag and kills every other non true name threat.

Edit:and he was on the stifle build, which is even worse for us. The feel bads of having a forgemaster stifled is super real. Its why i tend to try to draw my deck vs non leovold delver.

malfie13
05-26-2018, 04:48 PM
Yup I agree on that too, but it's still a good fetchable artifact against a big creature.
I have tried monkey cage and ... i didn't really liked it. On the long run grisel will still win, and against Emrakul you just have better options (IMO).

Yea, my issue has been removing karn, liberated and just needing a solid answer. Staff does that to some degree, by tapping stuff down, but it isnt a perfect science.

Runninonwater
05-27-2018, 03:35 PM
Grixis delver on the draw is super annoying, as it is for relatively everyone. I do and don't love the idea of umezawa jitte. I think that its great in some matches, where creatures are an issue. Ive been sbing razormane masticore, which cold stops a gurmag and kills every other non true name threat.

Edit:and he was on the stifle build, which is even worse for us. The feel bads of having a forgemaster stifled is super real. Its why i tend to try to draw my deck vs non leovold delver.

Razormane can be really nice in my build if i can manage to get a Karn, Scion of Urza out that can fuel it. Thanks for the tips, 2 in the sideboard? Im thinking 1 but...

Sideboard (15)
3x Faerie Macabre
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x Razormane Masticore
2x Sorcerous Spyglass
3x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Walking Ballista
2x Warping Wail

^this is the sideboard atm. Got the list from silverflame but removed a thorn and added the Razormane

Im open to suggestions.
I've been thinking about Aethersphere Harvester, its a 3/5 that can be crewed by Metalworker alone. Maybe thats a better fit than a 1 off Jitte? Not sure.
I feel like the build is tight and at the same time... yeah.

malfie13
05-28-2018, 06:28 PM
[/QUOTE] .
Sideboard (15)
3x Faerie Macabre
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x Razormane Masticore
2x Sorcerous Spyglass
3x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Walking Ballista
2x Warping Wail

[/QUOTE]

I have a different build, but i run 3 thorns mb. Razormane is indeed best as a 1x. We can tutor it as a silver bullet, and is in general just gross, but two hurts us too much. You might consider a split bt the fae and a tormod crypt. Remember, fae can be needled.

malfie13
05-29-2018, 06:52 AM
Here is the current working list for scg con... thoughts? I am currently on 1x traxos, bc i really, really dont want the legendary rule to cost me games. Dunno if i want 3x wurmcoil, either. And I am beginning to think 2x cities may be fine, and may be better served running spyglasses mb instead of...something. Maybe the sundering titan and some incidental card. It was really hard to find a space for 2x karns. God it was hard. Cut two artifacts, which also lowered my artifact count. Dunno. Anyway, list is currently follows.

Deck: Legacy MUD For SCG CON.dec

Counts : 61 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:18
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Traxos, Scourge of Kroog
2 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Steel Hellkite
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus

Spells:19
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Grim Monolith
1 Lightning Greaves
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Staff of Domination
2 Trinisphere
1 Ghirapur Orrery
2 Karn, Scion of Urza
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

Lands:24
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Buried Ruin
2 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
1 Deserted Temple
4 Glimmerpost
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Thespian's Stage
3 Vesuva

Sideboard:15
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Razormane Masticore
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Spatial Contortion
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Orbs of Warding
1 All Is Dust

Jorruk
05-29-2018, 07:12 AM
Hi,

I also join you about the legendary rule, but maybe 2 of is still fine ? Worst case it allows you to untap the previous traxos.
Interesting list, I am quite doubtful about the kuldotha in just 2 exemplars. I would personally cut the sundering titan for a third kuldotha.
About the MD sorcerous, what do you think of switching spine & 1 staff ?

But I really like the fact you are playing a MUD list a bit different than usual.
We have previously debated about G. Orrery, I guess it's very good against deck with basically blue cards but I guess you don't play it/side out against D&T - burn - lands - turbo depths - nic fit etc ?
On another topic, why is 1 Nevinyrral's Disk here ? against what kind of decks do you side it in ?

JackaBo
05-29-2018, 09:06 AM
Can't believe 3 chalice is correct (unless moon stompy has taken over completely???)
I bet 4th chalice must be better than your second thorne, given that a third of your decks are non-lands non-creatures.

malfie13
05-30-2018, 06:58 AM
Did testing. Didnt like not running ballista. Also running 2 karns and a weatherlight instead of traxos. The tap clause is relevent.

malfie13
05-30-2018, 02:49 PM
Can't believe 3 chalice is correct (unless moon stompy has taken over completely???)
I bet 4th chalice must be better than your second thorne, given that a third of your decks are non-lands non-creatures.

Im currently on 3 chalices. Redundant chalices are no good, and redundant thorns are 3 balls. Ive had numerous players tell me they would rather play vs a chalice than being taxed outta existwnce by thorn plus lodestone, which is basically scoop territory. Also thorns dont stop casting or activating metalworkers, so i rarely have issues casting things. When i 22nd the 800 person eternal weekend i was on 4 thorns in the 75. Im on three now only bc storm is already a bye on the play. We dont really need extra help

malfie13
05-30-2018, 02:52 PM
Hi,

I also join you about the legendary rule, but maybe 2 of is still fine ? Worst case it allows you to untap the previous traxos.
Interesting list, I am quite doubtful about the kuldotha in just 2 exemplars. I would personally cut the sundering titan for a third kuldotha.
About the MD sorcerous, what do you think of switching spine & 1 staff ?

But I really like the fact you are playing a MUD list a bit different than usual.
We have previously debated about G. Orrery, I guess it's very good against deck with basically blue cards but I guess you don't play it/side out against D&T - burn - lands - turbo depths - nic fit etc ?
On another topic, why is 1 Nevinyrral's Disk here ? against what kind of decks do you side it in ?

Yeah, orrery is no bueno vs very specific decks. Vs anyone who can whittle us down or who we dump hand vs it is great. Nevs disc is for btb in miracles, elves and eldrazi. End cap. I am going to try either a 1 and 1 split with ratchet bomb or just two ratchet bombs, ultimately tho.

malfie13
05-30-2018, 02:55 PM
Im going to be playing a local legacy event this weekend and ill run my mud build through its paces. I did alter it a bit from the one i posted the other day due to testing. I just dunno if i like traxos, and feel like sundering titan may be bettet in the sb. I cant really decide about that one.

Jorruk
05-31-2018, 03:28 AM
Im going to be playing a local legacy event this weekend and ill run my mud build through its paces. I did alter it a bit from the one i posted the other day due to testing. I just dunno if i like traxos, and feel like sundering titan may be bettet in the sb. I cant really decide about that one.

I really join you on this point, titan is extraordinary good if played early against "common" decks to beat : grixis delver & czech pile. On the other hand it makes almost nothing to lots of other decks (most popular in my mind : eldrazi, lands (GR and turbo), ANT, elves, D&T. That is why I decided to put it back in the SB.
Thank you for your light about the specific cards :)
I will also go to a local legacy event in two weeks, still can't decide if I am going with MUD or mono red stompy (or dragonless dragon stompy)

malfie13
05-31-2018, 03:08 PM
More gobliny goblin stompy lately.

I havent really settled on weatherlight. Has anyone tested with it yet to have some actual results about worth speaking? I cant tell if its solid or not, although karn constructs and forgemaster can both crew it.

Airwave
06-01-2018, 04:01 AM
I have the same opinion - Wasteland is not must have in the deck. I am in no way expert in MUD, however I think 4x Wasteland are less helpful in the deck than a bunch of sol lands with spheres, thorns, and chalices. And by playing more one-mana lands we just deprive ourselves from a better chance of putting a threat in play on the first turn.

I also think that land destruction strategy perhaps is better in STAXX-like decks as it fits there more organically.

This got me thinking, why play Wasteland? Is it still the best option for the deck? With all the Deathrite Shaman's out there it does lose some of its power. But then, why play Trinisphere and Lodestone Golem, since they'll lose power too without Wasteland. So I decided to build a deck without the mana hate, this is the list:


4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster

1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Platinum Angel
1 Steel Hellkite
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Moltensteel Dragon

3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Batterskull
2 Lightning Greaves

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sorcerous Spyglass

4 Grim Monolith

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
3 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
1 Inventors' Fair


Sideboard

2 Faerie Macabre
1 Spellskite
1 Karakas
1 Duplicant
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Walking Ballista
2 Warping Wail
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Ethersworn Canonist



I played in the Dutch open series (85 participants) and went 3-3 with this list. Won from Turbo Depths, Burn and Reanimator lost to another Turbo Depths, 4 color control and... Steel stompy :eyebrow:

The deck was fun to play, as always. Sorcerous Spyglass seemed like a good choice, I always had significant targets. Platinum Angel won the game against both Turbo and Burn (fetched through Forgemaster). The new Karn should replace the Moltensteel Dragon's I think, I still need to acquire these.

Jorruk
06-05-2018, 07:29 AM
The deck was fun to play, as always. Sorcerous Spyglass seemed like a good choice, I always had significant targets. Platinum Angel won the game against both Turbo and Burn (fetched through Forgemaster). The new Karn should replace the Moltensteel Dragon's I think, I still need to acquire these.

Can I ask you why did you choose angel over emperion ? In the vast majority of cases I prefer emperion : can attack through several creatures, bigger body so less sensitive to burn spells etc.
The only case where I find angel better is against infect.
I don't see any other upside (yes, it is flying but with a meta filled with delver, flicker, strix or marit I don't really see it as an advantage)

BlackHawkX9
06-06-2018, 09:32 AM
Can I ask you why did you choose angel over emperion ? In the vast majority of cases I prefer emperion : can attack through several creatures, bigger body so less sensitive to burn spells etc.
The only case where I find angel better is against infect.
I don't see any other upside (yes, it is flying but with a meta filled with delver, flicker, strix or marit I don't really see it as an advantage)

I'm gonna start this by saying, I run emperion over the angel, all day, every day.

Angel is only better vs infect, fringe strategies that use "I win cards" like lab maniac, or being decked by things like grindstone.

I have 2 infect players in my local meta, and I still run emperion, because he is just that much better against everything else.

Jorruk
06-07-2018, 05:45 AM
Ok, that is what I was thinking ^^
I forgot about lab maniac, but it has been a while since I have seen one ...

BlackHawkX9
06-07-2018, 06:07 AM
Ok, that is what I was thinking ^^
I forgot about lab maniac, but it has been a while since I have seen one ...

Ya, the fringe strategies were angel is better are just plain not present in the current meta. Emperion is strictly better vs the decks that are active currently.

Airwave
06-07-2018, 08:28 AM
Can I ask you why did you choose angel over emperion ? In the vast majority of cases I prefer emperion : can attack through several creatures, bigger body so less sensitive to burn spells etc.
The only case where I find angel better is against infect.
I don't see any other upside (yes, it is flying but with a meta filled with delver, flicker, strix or marit I don't really see it as an advantage)

Normally I play Emperion as well, but because I see a lot of infect decks running around I chose the Angel instead. The other advantages are that it's 7 mana against 8 mana and that you can still gain life with Wurmcoils and Batterskull.

Jorruk
06-07-2018, 10:47 AM
Normally I play Emperion as well, but because I see a lot of infect decks running around I chose the Angel instead. The other advantages are that it's 7 mana against 8 mana and that you can still gain life with Wurmcoils and Batterskull.

Ok, I see it was a meta choice.
The "only" relevant cases where I find the life gain really important is against lands, burn and eldrazi.
Out of the three I guess I would still prefer emperion. Post side lands is full of hate against artifacts, burn will just burn the angel, and eldrazi have access to dismember assuming they have not side it out.
Thanks for your answer !

Runninonwater
06-11-2018, 04:59 PM
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/413485540197793812/455831404735889451/infernaljudgment.png

Infernal Judgment
B
Instant
Exile target colorless creature. You gain life equal to its power.

Damn, luckily its a 1 mana, thinking about Chalice, but still! this can hurt.

What do you guys think about this card?

Noctalor
06-11-2018, 05:53 PM
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/413485540197793812/455831404735889451/infernaljudgment.png

Infernal Judgment
B
Instant
Exile target colorless creature. You gain life equal to its power.

Damn, luckily its a 1 mana, thinking about Chalice, but still! this can hurt.

What do you guys think about this card?

unless im missing something, no one is going to play it, way too narrow.

Jorruk
06-12-2018, 04:36 AM
Infernal Judgment
B
Instant
Exile target colorless creature. You gain life equal to its power.

Damn, luckily its a 1 mana, thinking about Chalice, but still! this can hurt.

What do you guys think about this card?


Same as Noctalor, I guess it is more playable in modern (eldrazi - tron/aggro, affinity, hollow-one) but in Legacy I would never play this if I was playing a black deck. You only touch Eldrazi - aggro/big E and MUD (and yeah steel stompy), decks that are not played very much.

Airwave
06-12-2018, 04:49 AM
Same as Noctalor, I guess it is more playable in modern (eldrazi - tron/aggro, affinity, hollow-one) but in Legacy I would never play this if I was playing a black deck. You only touch Eldrazi - aggro/big E and MUD (and yeah steel stompy), decks that are not played very much.

I guess it's somewhat narrow but it does hit both Eldrazi and artifacts. People might play Null rod sooner, lucky it's only one mana indeed.

Bothers me though, that they keep printing stuff that annoys us like Damping Sphere as well. Could we please see a Cavern of Souls for artifacts, an cheap artifact that kills cantrips, an artifact wrath-of-god, anyway... maybe I'm too greedy :smile:

Jorruk
06-12-2018, 07:48 AM
I guess it's somewhat narrow but it does hit both Eldrazi and artifacts. People might play Null rod sooner, lucky it's only one mana indeed.

Bothers me though, that they keep printing stuff that annoys us like Damping Sphere as well. Could we please see a Cavern of Souls for artifacts, an cheap artifact that kills cantrips, an artifact wrath-of-god, anyway... maybe I'm too greedy :smile:

We already have this kind of spells : chalice, all is dust, oblivion stone. But yeah I agree with you :p
A friend tested damping sphere, and trust me most decks don't like it either becauses they can't play multiple spells per turn. Think of the numerous decks that play BS + something or ponder + something.
About Null rod, I guess it will be more problematic if steel stompy decks become more popular. For now the only decks impacted with it are MUD (by far), Steel Sompy, aether vial decks, and stone blade. So not a big deal I guess. People are more focused on Grixis delver / Czech pile / turbo depths.

lukatron2
06-12-2018, 04:08 PM
Im currently on 3 chalices. Redundant chalices are no good, and redundant thorns are 3 balls. Ive had numerous players tell me they would rather play vs a chalice than being taxed outta existwnce by thorn plus lodestone, which is basically scoop territory. Also thorns dont stop casting or activating metalworkers, so i rarely have issues casting things. When i 22nd the 800 person eternal weekend i was on 4 thorns in the 75. Im on three now only bc storm is already a bye on the play. We dont really need extra help

When was that and is there a link to your decklist as well as the top 8 or more? Very curious! Always struggling to find the right balance of cards in MUD.

Jorruk
06-13-2018, 05:26 AM
As I don't play (or constructed at least) on MTGO I can't test as much as I would like. So I'm also struggling with numbers of cards, that's why I have recently made a spreadsheet on statistics to get X cards in a deck containing Y cards. Or Z exemplars etc etc.
I have also compared the chances with a 61 cards deck, and basically it doesn't change anything (to sum up about 1% of chances per cards)
You can check it here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Gw8Xr8nbSZ3F97atXBTRCSJxRFFVq7Dis4J_3HHfvFc/edit?usp=sharing)

Jorruk
06-17-2018, 05:30 PM
https://www.channelfireball.com/videos/mud-legacy-channel-mengucci/

The deck was played by Mengucci on CFB. The list is a bit spicy IMO. But at least MUD is interesting some people :tongue:

Silverflame
06-17-2018, 09:00 PM
Possible upgrade to Spine.

Slops: No replayability.

Props: Can be uncounterable thorough caverns; Puts more pressure on S&T; Not affected by thorns and Teeg;

http://mythicspoiler.com/m19/cards/meteorgolem.jpg

malfie13
06-18-2018, 07:04 AM
Scg Con Report Incoming.

I should finally have time to get in front of a keyboard after the tournament on Tuesday. It's been a crazy week, followed by my son's birthday and Father's Day. What I will say for current review is that I had an MVP on Friday that I also included for the duel for duals. I do not think running 2 is worth it, but one Razormane Masticore feels like a must in the current meta. I will put my decklist and report out there asap, but I will say that mistakes may have been made, but also my general experimentation was largely successful and many of my losses in matches came down to opponents topdecking like bosses.

Troll_ov_Grimness
06-26-2018, 03:17 PM
Possible upgrade to Spine.

Slops: No replayability.

Props: Can be uncounterable thorough caverns; Puts more pressure on S&T; Not affected by thorns and Teeg;

http://mythicspoiler.com/m19/cards/meteorgolem.jpg

I think it costs too much mana. I think to be playable as a playset it would have to cost 5

I don't think this will replace Spine Of Ish Sah

I was thinking it might be playable with Traxos and Goblin Welder in a newly updated decklist but for it to work in that kind of shell it would have to cost a lot less mana as cloudpost mana wouldn't be used

Jorruk
06-27-2018, 03:45 AM
I think it costs too much mana. I think to be playable as a playset it would have to cost 5

I don't think this will replace Spine Of Ish Sah

I was thinking it might be playable with Traxos and Goblin Welder in a newly updated decklist but for it to work in that kind of shell it would have to cost a lot less mana as cloudpost mana wouldn't be used

I was more thinking of it as a replacement of Spine, despite the fact that usually I use Spine more from a Kuldotha activation (on bridge or a Jace almost ultimating for exemple).
However I guess it won't see a lot of plays : as you said it is a bit expensive and can die to lots of removal. Spine can serve as a artifact to sac for kuldotha more easily.

I don't know if a welder based deck can be competitive nowadays. The meta is filled with GY hate (classical sideboard + DRS) and lots of spot removals. The main advantage of MUD nowadays is that it can be explosive thanks to grim monolith and metalworker. If none of those stick on the BF you still have access to plenty of mana thanks to your lands. You start to struggle when both sides of your plan is attacked.
For a welder pack, you have to let your welder survive and have cards in your GY, that's a pretty hard hard thing to do :p


Malfie, we are all still waiting your report :)

Fred_Bear
06-27-2018, 11:14 AM
I don't know if a welder based deck can be competitive nowadays. The meta is filled with GY hate (classical sideboard + DRS) and lots of spot removals. The main advantage of MUD nowadays is that it can be explosive thanks to grim monolith and metalworker. If none of those stick on the BF you still have access to plenty of mana thanks to your lands. You start to struggle when both sides of your plan is attacked.
For a welder pack, you have to let your welder survive and have cards in your GY, that's a pretty hard hard thing to do :p

Is this really the fear?

I mean, DRS shows up in ~40% of decks. 1cc, 2 toughness, needs cards in the graveyard. The second most popular creature is Snapcaster Mage which also requires cards in the graveyard...

I feel like Welder is less competitive because of the desire to play Chalice.

BlackHawkX9
06-28-2018, 05:10 PM
Is this really the fear?

I mean, DRS shows up in ~40% of decks. 1cc, 2 toughness, needs cards in the graveyard. The second most popular creature is Snapcaster Mage which also requires cards in the graveyard...

I feel like Welder is less competitive because of the desire to play Chalice.

Deathrite is the main reason that welder isn't viable anymore.

And when myself and some other long time mud players, ran welder, we ran 4 chalice, 4 welder, and 4 cavern of souls, side by side. Cavern made welder less of a liability.

Fred_Bear
06-29-2018, 10:38 AM
Deathrite is the main reason that welder isn't viable anymore.

And when myself and some other long time mud players, ran welder, we ran 4 chalice, 4 welder, and 4 cavern of souls, side by side. Cavern made welder less of a liability.

Could you explain this a bit more?

DRS can't target anything weldable, right?

I guess my point was, if DRS is playable, why wouldn't Welder be playable? Most decks only have 2-4 sideboard slots dedicated to graveyard removal. The plan seems to be kill the Elf rather than try to take away his power. Welder, of course, still dies to bolt, but an active Welder, with tools, seems like it would at least have potential to be more powerful than DRS.

Silverflame
06-29-2018, 11:16 AM
Could you explain this a bit more?

DRS can't target anything weldable, right?

I guess my point was, if DRS is playable, why wouldn't Welder be playable? Most decks only have 2-4 sideboard slots dedicated to graveyard removal. The plan seems to be kill the Elf rather than try to take away his power. Welder, of course, still dies to bolt, but an active Welder, with tools, seems like it would at least have potential to be more powerful than DRS.

DRS is a maindeck card that hates opponent's graveyard. That goes for some combo decks, control and most midrangey decks. Can be cast with 2 different colors, It is a 1/2 so it blocks an early Goblin Lackey. It gives you life against burn. It damages opponents you can't attack. It fixes your mana. It prevents you from being locked out by wasteland and enables you to lock your opponent while developing your board. It makes most of your cards worth more, as they are fuel for DRS, even your fetchlands. It interacts with most cards in yours or your opponent's graveyard. There are just so many angles it can be useful, including responding a welder activation by removing the creature in the GY that you're trying to weld. It's overall a much better card than welder and is slotted in most decks, usually guarded by countermagic as it is an attrition card. That's why it is called the "one mana planeswalker".
Welder needs you to get one artifact in play and one in the graveyard, not have sickness, not be countered to get value. Most decks doesn't use maindeck artifacts for you to disrupt them. Most decks will have DRS to disrupt you.

Fred_Bear
06-29-2018, 11:27 AM
DRS is a maindeck card that hates opponent's graveyard. That goes for some combo decks, control and most midrangey decks. Can be cast with 2 different colors, It is a 1/2 so it blocks an early Goblin Lackey. It gives you life against burn. It damages opponents you can't attack. It fixes your mana. It prevents you from being locked out by wasteland and enables you to lock your opponent while developing your board. It makes most of your cards worth more, as they are fuel for DRS, even your fetchlands. It interacts with most cards in yours or your opponent's graveyard. There are just so many angles it can be useful, including responding a welder activation by removing the creature in the GY that you're trying to weld. It's overall a much better card than welder and is slotted in most decks, usually guarded by countermagic as it is an attrition card. That's why it is called the "one mana planeswalker".
Welder needs you to get one artifact in play and one in the graveyard, not have sickness, not be countered to get value. Most decks doesn't use maindeck artifacts for you to disrupt them. Most decks will have DRS to disrupt you.

Thanks.

I understand what makes DRS tick and targeting creatures gives this basis within the MUD shell. If the artifacts are more Stax-oriented (non-creatures), Welder could be more playable I think.

BlackHawkX9
06-29-2018, 01:08 PM
Thanks.

I understand what makes DRS tick and targeting creatures gives this basis within the MUD shell. If the artifacts are more Stax-oriented (non-creatures), Welder could be more playable I think.

This is true. But unfortunately the best things we can welder to get maximum abuse of welder are creatures. (wurmcoil engine, sundering titan, myr battlesphere, etc). With the printing of combustible gearhulk, I kinda revisited welder, but it still just gets ruined by the ease of eating creatures that deathrite has. . The best non-creature things that we can welder are stax, spine, and contagion engine, which are already 1 of's or fringe playable as is.

Fred_Bear
06-29-2018, 04:10 PM
This is true. But unfortunately the best things we can welder to get maximum abuse of welder are creatures. (wurmcoil engine, sundering titan, myr battlesphere, etc). With the printing of combustible gearhulk, I kinda revisited welder, but it still just gets ruined by the ease of eating creatures that deathrite has. . The best non-creature things that we can welder are stax, spine, and contagion engine, which are already 1 of's or fringe playable as is.

Again, I think it depends on how you construct it. For the MUD builds, I agree entirely. Creatures are the best value. I'm thinking of trying something in a different direction...

Airwave
06-30-2018, 04:46 AM
Again, I think it depends on how you construct it. For the MUD builds, I agree entirely. Creatures are the best value. I'm thinking of trying something in a different direction...

Tangle Wire is a card :smile:

Silverflame
06-30-2018, 04:57 PM
I don't think it is worth playing welder again until they print a non-creature artifact that is ineherently powerful by itself. For now, you need too much setup for not enough value.

Fred_Bear
07-01-2018, 10:26 PM
I don't think it is worth playing welder again until they print a non-creature artifact that is ineherently powerful by itself. For now, you need too much setup for not enough value.

I agree that you need a non-creature artifact that's worth it. I'm wondering if the current meta doesn't make a couple of existing artifacts worth revisiting... maybe.

malfie13
07-02-2018, 09:09 AM
So. I had totally tied up my review of scg con, and was working on editing it. Unfortunately my computer decided to stop working forever, and I don't have a backup and paper or electronically because I was planning on posting at the same day. We tried to put it on life support but it didn't work. So in the next couple of days I'll try to drop down some of my general thoughts, as I threw out my tournament notes having typed up the entirety of the review already. FML.

malfie13
07-02-2018, 09:14 AM
I don't think it is worth playing welder again until they print a non-creature artifact that is ineherently powerful by itself. For now, you need too much setup for not enough value.

I disagree, that welder is completely inherently not good enough because of death right Ramen. It's partly that it can't have haste, partly that there are several graveyard based Decks that are great, which causes the hate to be pretty good, I'm partly the strategy we've been currently working with his pretty good already. Unfortunately reality is that what we lack that would make our deck better, usually revolves around card selection and card draw, which are more blue things, not graveyard recursion, which tends not to matter. Obviously if things are counted early, and end up in the graveyard, getting them back is sometimes cool, but I have rarely found that the one or two things that get countered early are the Necessities that I needed. Welders there is great because no matter what you stick you will get the value you want out of it either from the cast or from the graveyard. And you can also activate the Wilder in response to a death right activation, if it is not dealt with. In fact alongside metalworker, I find that is pretty gross. I kind of wish there was a good streamline version of the deck that ran both, but I have not yet been able to brew one and I haven't seen any online.

malfie13
07-02-2018, 09:14 AM
Jeez, voice software. Death ramen is funny tho.

Airwave
07-02-2018, 10:40 AM
Welcome back mister Goblin Welder :laugh:

Silverflame
07-02-2018, 01:05 PM
Ok, death right Ramen (I like that :laugh:) is banned.
I believe welder is better on a combo shell than a midrange one. So probably battlesphere, sundering, double staff , lots of bridges, etc Older lists are available, so we just need to tune them for the new meta.
My thoughts on the meta are Grixis probably is dead, long live RUG. Reanimator will be rampant at early shifting. Gobbos everywhere. Nobles and goyf go back to their prime.
Czech pile dead, finally.

Stuart
07-03-2018, 01:05 PM
So, my gut feeling is that MUD will be a solid choice while the meta's in flux over the next month or two, because:
1) Post ban, it's always good to do something proactive and powerful
2) There's gonna be a lot of Reanimator, Sneak & Show, RUG, and Miracles, all of which we can punish with shit like Chalice, Lodestone, and Thorn

I'm a bit nervous about DnT rearing its head, though Ballista and Spyglass are useful printings since DnT was super popular a year or two ago. Here's the 75 I'll be trying next week:

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone
3 Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil
1 Emperion
1 Sundering Titan
2 Ballista
2 Ugin

4 Monolith
4 Chalice
4 Thorn
2 Greaves
1 Spyglass
1 Staff of Domination

3 Wasteland
4 Tomb
3 City
11 Post
2 Cavern
1 Inventors' Fair

1 Ballista
2 Spine
1 Contagion Engine
2 Portal (maybe this becomes Karn 3.0)
2 Crucible
2 Spyglass
2 Tsabo's Web
3 Tormod's Crypt

(This isn't a huge departure from my old lists. Main changes are 4 Thorn - I'd been on just 2 Trinisphere for a while - and reintroducing Spine to the board.)