[Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

[Esper3k]

I did a small update with the opening post. However, I haven't updated my "personal list".

Feel free to criticize

Not a criticism, but a small addendum. For Batterskull, I'd also add that it's very good against StP, which our other big threats tend to be soft against.

[(nameless one)]

Noted.

Also, I will be adding a section on how to beat popular decks.

I'll do it when I get home. Editing a post that massive is a pain and a half on an iPhone.

[Esper3k]

Played (and lost) to RUG again in a tournament last night. Game 2, I could have won, but I lost due to my own mistake, so that one's mine.

However, I got to thinking again - while Karn and All Is Dust are powerful, we simply very rarely get the mana to cast them.

I am thinking that even though Revokers are pretty bad against RUG, we may have to keep them in just as low drop blockers we can play to stay alive. Even if they chump block a big Tarmogoyf for a turn, if it buys us time to drop a Batterskull or Wurmcoil, we may need it.

Trying out 2x Ratchet Bombs this weekend in my sideboard in the two flexible slots I have. Still looking for a 2-3 mana artifact that hoses RUG... still haven't found it yet though :(

I was considering Culling Scales, but then I saw the interaction with Nimble Mongoose and went :cry:

[kingtk3]

Karn is ok against those decks, but I actually don't like him as much against the more aggressive GWx decks since they tend to run Thalia, so you're really double taxing casting him between Thalia and Lodestone. All Is Dust is actually better, imo, since it just completely sweeps their board for the same cost as Karn.

Honestly, against the more aggro decks, my game plan is usually to just crush them with Wurmcoils & Batterskulls. Ideally, you get out a Chalice @ 1 as well to protect your Wurmcoils from StP (this is where Batterskull really shines compared to Wurmcoil).

I agree that karn is too slow when you have double or even triple tax on him.
However I see a problem with the cards you have mentioned because they all are shut down by Gaddock, Wurmcoil apart. Ratchet bomb instead comes down fast even with Thalia on board, dodges Gaddock and it's good versus token decks too.

However I think that Karn liberated is one of the best, if not the best, card to play on an empty board, the problem is find how to wipe.

[Esper3k]

I agree that karn is too slow when you have double or even triple tax on him.
However I see a problem with the cards you have mentioned because they all are shut down by Gaddock, Wurmcoil apart. Ratchet bomb instead comes down fast even with Thalia on board, dodges Gaddock and it's good versus token decks too.

However I think that Karn liberated is one of the best, if not the best, card to play on an empty board, the problem is find how to wipe.

Yeah, Gaddock Teeg can be a pain if he gets out before you get any of your big stuff online. However, as you mentioned, Wurmcoils still get down through him, as do Lodestone Golems. Steel Hellkites (for the lists that play them) are also very good against those GWx Aggro decks.

[[SLAYER]chaos]

I'm thinking about putting this deck together to try it out. Has anyone tried a mostly colorless list with mox opals and seat of the synod for thirst for knowledge?

[Gojira]

chaos;733487']I'm thinking about putting this deck together to try it out. Has anyone tried a mostly colorless list with mox opals and seat of the synod for thirst for knowledge?

In my opinion splashing red for faithless looting is better, because of the goblin welder interaction. (helps get things out on turn 2/sets up the wurmcoil loop, etc). Plus, faithless has flashback.

If there were other good blue spells, it might be worth it, but thirst is really the only one.

This is an example of what I'm thinking of (blood moon just wins the game against certain decks, so the extra red splash lets you run that):

Cleveland Rhoades
5th Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open on 4/7/2013

Creatures (20)
1 Blightsteel Colossus
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Steel Hellkite
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Goblin Welder

Planeswalkers (1)
1 Karn Liberated

Lands (20)
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Great Furnace
2 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors

Spells (19)
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff Of Domination
1 Staff of Nin
3 Trinisphere
1 Voltaic Key
2 Mox Opal
3 Faithless Looting

Sideboard
2 Chalice of the Void
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Witchbane Orb
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Platinum Emperion
2 Blood Moon
1 Karn Liberated
1 All Is Dust

[Esper3k]

chaos;733487']I'm thinking about putting this deck together to try it out. Has anyone tried a mostly colorless list with mox opals and seat of the synod for thirst for knowledge?

Not really. Faerie Stompy is more along the blue vein (and you can run very artifact heavy builds of it as well). MUD really tries to stay as colorless as possible most of the time.

[lukatron2]

Not really. MUD really tries to stay as colorless as possible most of the time.

Oh yea totally bra, except for 95% of all the MUD decks that placed in large/significant tournaments

[th3 w1z4rd]

Played (and lost) to RUG again in a tournament last night. Game 2, I could have won, but I lost due to my own mistake, so that one's mine.

However, I got to thinking again - while Karn and All Is Dust are powerful, we simply very rarely get the mana to cast them.

I am thinking that even though Revokers are pretty bad against RUG, we may have to keep them in just as low drop blockers we can play to stay alive. Even if they chump block a big Tarmogoyf for a turn, if it buys us time to drop a Batterskull or Wurmcoil, we may need it.

Trying out 2x Ratchet Bombs this weekend in my sideboard in the two flexible slots I have. Still looking for a 2-3 mana artifact that hoses RUG... still haven't found it yet though :(

I was considering Culling Scales, but then I saw the interaction with Nimble Mongoose and went :cry:

I tried Culling Scales too. Terrible card. Kills your own Chalice, Grim Monolith, Voltaic Key, Lightning Greaves... Just awful. I use Ratchet Bomb and it's pretty good. I side in that and Trinisphere and side out expensive things like Karn. Although sometimes you randomly catch them with All is Dust. Resolve Wurmcoil Engine and you win automatically pretty much. Resolve most threats and you win actually. Chalice wrecks them of course. I usually play out all mana stuff like Thran Dynamo, etc to blank their soft counters. Then just drop threats till one sticks.

[kingtk3]

Played (and lost) to RUG again in a tournament last night. Game 2, I could have won, but I lost due to my own mistake, so that one's mine.

However, I got to thinking again - while Karn and All Is Dust are powerful, we simply very rarely get the mana to cast them.

I am thinking that even though Revokers are pretty bad against RUG, we may have to keep them in just as low drop blockers we can play to stay alive. Even if they chump block a big Tarmogoyf for a turn, if it buys us time to drop a Batterskull or Wurmcoil, we may need it.

Trying out 2x Ratchet Bombs this weekend in my sideboard in the two flexible slots I have. Still looking for a 2-3 mana artifact that hoses RUG... still haven't found it yet though :(

I was considering Culling Scales, but then I saw the interaction with Nimble Mongoose and went :cry:

It's not really a 2-3 CC artifact, but against RUG I found razormane masticore to be quite a beating, and it fits the curve of a stompy build pretty nice ;)

[th3 w1z4rd]

It's not really a 2-3 CC artifact, but against RUG I found razormane masticore to be quite a beating, and it fits the curve of a stompy build pretty nice ;)

Makes you discard a card every turn, its ability does not kill Tarmogoyf or Nimble Mongoose (although it obviously stops goose on the ground), is outclassed by Steel Hellkite and Wurmcoil Engine for 1 more mana... I dunno man. That seems sketchy to me.

[Esper3k]

I've been taking a break from MUD recently, but Ratchet Bomb has been the card I'm looking to test in the board next to assist in the RUG matchup as well as help to deal with problematic enchantment/artifacts (I'm looking at you, Ensnaring Bridge!)

[kingtk3]

Makes you discard a card every turn, its ability does not kill Tarmogoyf or Nimble Mongoose (although it obviously stops goose on the ground), is outclassed by Steel Hellkite and Wurmcoil Engine for 1 more mana... I dunno man. That seems sketchy to me.

I didn't mean razormane to be a house against RUG but it's solid: kill all the delvers, goyf cannot block it due to first strike, same for mongoose.
It's true that wurmcoil and hellkite are better but 1 more mana often is the difference between casting a robot and keep it in hand, especially against a mana denial deck.

I think that ratchet bomb and powder keg (if you need additional effects) are better though, just remember that they can be stiffled.

[Esper3k]

I think that ratchet bomb and powder keg (if you need additional effects) are better though, just remember that they can be stiffled.

While this is true, generally speaking I think we're pretty happy if they keep Stifle in against us.

[kingtk3]

While this is true, generally speaking I think we're pretty happy if they keep Stifle in against us.

Against a stompy build (like ours I guess :wink:) they would side stifle out, but against forgemaster they will surely keep them in.

[Koby]

I don't see it being discussed in the last few pages. Anyone have a recent Godo MUD list to go by? I'm feeling spicy this week and want to fire up Sriracha MUD. #BatterLuckyThanGodo

[kingtk3]

I don't see it being discussed in the last few pages. Anyone have a recent Godo MUD list to go by? I'm feeling spicy this week and want to fire up Sriracha MUD. #BatterLuckyThanGodo

Here's the last list I played:

4 grim monolith
3 trinisphere
3 thran dynamo
4 chalice of the void
3 phyrexian revoker
3 metalworker
2 phyrexian metamorph
4 lodestone golem
3 wurmcoil engine
2 steel hellkite
3 godo, bandit warlord
1 sword of fire and ice
2 batterskull

4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
3 mountain
4 cavern of soul

SIDE
1 phyrexian revoker
2 Karn liberated
3 spine of ish sah
3 dodecapod
3 tormod's crypt
3 ratchet bomb


The side was made to fight show and tell and heavy discard: feel free to cut some dodecapod and spine for something more needed in your meta. I advise the fourth bomb and the fourth trinisphere, and if your meta is full of maverick some cursed totems.

Enjoy!!!

[Koby]

Cool thanks for sharing. Any particular reasons for 3x Metalworker or Revoker?

[kingtk3]

Cool thanks for sharing. Any particular reasons for 3x Metalworker or Revoker?

No prob, I'm happy to know someone else is stomping faces with robots ^_^

Metalworker - it's powerful but my deck is not designed to exploit it completely: first of all there isn't a single artifact land and there are also 3 Godos, so the artifact count is not so high. Also I tried not to play too many CC above 5 because it will leads to situations where you would need metalworker to play your threats; meanwhile, having a lower mana curve, metalworker is not much needed. Moreover it is a creature and a 3 CC so basically anything can kill it. I prefer playing 2 thran dynamo because they are harder to remove and provide sufficient ramp.

Revoker - I play 3 MD and 1 in side because it's strong but not in every matchup (rug, burn...) and I prefer to have 2 metamorph which very often play like golem number 5 and 6.

I'm perfetcly open to criticism though; in fact I change the deck quite often.

[(nameless one)]

Has anyone tested Staff of Nin? With my limited testing, I find it to be a great piece during the mid game. It feeds Metalworker/refills the hand, removes X/1 creatures (or X/2 with Voltaic Keys) and its hard to deal with. I think two should be good.

[Esper3k]

Has anyone tested Staff of Nin? With my limited testing, I find it to be a great piece during the mid game. It feeds Metalworker/refills the hand, removes X/1 creatures (or X/2 with Voltaic Keys) and its hard to deal with. I think two should be good.

I wasn't a huge fan of it when I played it. The problem is that it's rarely going to come down early enough to really get many X/1's before they do their damage (Goblin Lackey, Bob, unflipped Delvers, etc.).

The card draw is nice and really good against the control decks but pretty horrible against aggro.

I opted to play +1 Batterskull, +1 All Is Dust instead to give me more of an edge against the aggro decks but yet still have cards that are decent against control.

I play the MUD Stompy list, so your thoughts may be different if you're playing the Forgemaster or red builds.

For me, every time I cast something that's 5 mana+, I want my opponent to need a new pair of underwear and Staff of Nim just doesn't really do that.

[Fry]

I play two Staff of Nin in my deck and I love them, started off with one to see how I liked it and uped it to two after a tourney or two. I play Forgemaster and I think it's a fantastic card and I've never had it been anything but good for me. I liked when I played it and pinged my opponent redirecting the damage to kill off either a Lilly or a JtMS (done that a couple times). I do play the full set of Metalworker and the Staff makes me more willing to play all of my hand with the extra draw each turn.

[bobomb]

Thought I would throw my MUD list into the pile... Only played it in a casual environment for now, but it runs pretty well.

I'm enjoying what Semblance Anvil can do. I know most people will say it isn't good enough for legacy, but here's my logic: It has the same CC as Trinisphere, but instead of slowing your opponent, it speeds up yourself. It has the card disadvantage of Mox Diamond, but it also makes Grim Monolith, Chalice of the void @2, Myr Superion, Lightning Greaves and Voltaic Key free to play. I've included 2 Bottled Cloister in the main for the draw engine, but it also protects my hand from discard.

In the near future I will replace the 4 mountain with 4 Cavern of Souls and the Crystal Vein with a 4th City of Traitors.



19 Creatures
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker
4 Goblin Welder
4 Myr Superion
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine

21 Spells
4 Grim Monolith
4 Semblance Anvil
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Bottled Cloister
3 Voltaic Key

20 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Crystal Vein
4 Great Furnace
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Mountain

[Bionitech]

Has anyone at all tested Karn, Silver Golem? At worst he can hold off a goyf and at best he can render equipment useless and turn your Dynamos and Trinispheres into beatsticks. I mean, I'd feel pretty satisfied using his :1: ability when a Jitte equipped spirit token is ready to fly at me and turn off the equipment entirely. I run two in my deck but I haven't played in a while. I will post results when I get a chance.

[Alex Holland]

Has anyone at all tested Karn, Silver Golem? At worst he can hold off a goyf and at best he can render equipment useless and turn your Dynamos and Trinispheres into beatsticks. I mean, I'd feel pretty satisfied using his :1: ability when a Jitte equipped spirit token is ready to fly at me and turn off the equipment entirely. I run two in my deck but I haven't played in a while. I will post results when I get a chance.

He doesnt do much good. Id play batterskull as 5 drop over him alll day.

[(nameless one)]

He does slow down Batterskull. If a Batterskull equipped creature attacks, use Karn to detach Batterskull from that creature.

[Alex Holland]

When seeing a batterskull i get revokers in on stoneforge ;)..
Just played some crazy games against pox.. hymns were killing me. However wurmcoil saved the day with karn liberated next to him.would have went faster with a steelhellkite.

Also played something bgw with deathrite shaman/ tarmogoyf.. lost horrible. Only all is dust could have saved me there.

One more thing: my metalworkers were useless during all 4 games i played! Only cannon fodder. This may be coincedence.

[(nameless one)]

What is the current consensus with Metalworker? Most of the time, it's a removal target but if it works, it wins you games.

I get that it's a must remove for the opponent but does it carry its load when it comes to being an important piece in the deck. Without Batterskull or any equipment to power it up, it's useless late game.

Personally I think it's value waned. Think about it, in the early game, I'd rather want lock pieces in the form of Chalice, 3Sphere or Tangle Wire. Hell, Revokers are also good early game to stop Deathrite Shamans from going crazy. Mid game, you either want Lodestone Golem, Wurmcoil Engine or something like that.

Granted, Metalworker can offer broken plays but how reliant is this deck to broken plays? How viable is a Metalworker into a Forgemaster into a Blightsteel Colossus play?

Outside of Metalworker, the Sol lands and the depowered Moxen, the deck doesn't really have the acceleration it's Vintage counterpart has. The deck is somehow more Midrange. I believe the goal of this archetype is to become the king of Midrange. It's trying to be a watered down combo deck. It's a great aggro deck in a sense that you can bash face with a turn 2-3 Wurmcoil Engine but the deck doesn't have the luxury of being a spot removal proof unlike the other aggro decks.

Although I will contradict myself by saying for it to be king of Midrange, the deck does need broken early plays, which I believe the dilemma the archetype is facing.

[Bionitech]

Honestly MUD needs needs NEEDS Metalworker in order to work. At worst it eats a bolt/StP/Path and at best it can win you the game. MUD requires serious turn 1 plays and Metalworker is one of them, if not Metalworker than it's the lockpieces. Turning it into a midrange deck means removing the possibility of the deck doing things that are actually broken and what makes the deck competitive. Without Metalworker, it's just a beefier Affinity with fewer plays.

This is a thread about Metalworker MUD. Not Red Stompy, Not Affinity Midrange and certainly NOT Dragon Stompy. This is MUD, the mono brown menace that people seldom see coming and when metalworker hits the board T1 and survives, then son, you deserve to make the opponent regret not doing anything about it.

On another note, Batterskulls over Karn, Silver Golem mainboard? That seems like a better option but is there any chance MUD has had some success as a semi-Stax list or am I living in a dreamworld?

[Alex Holland]

Last like 20 games i played metalworker has been usable about 1-2 times.

Now i do play mud stompy so the maximum amount of mana i need is 7.

However i must say that every time i get a duress or lightning bolt or whatever in my direction they always pick metalworker. Like mosten often its a dead draw for me but they all go for the bait!

i now play these creatures: 4 wurmcoil 4 batterskull 3 metalworker 3 godo 4 lodestone. However i am considering losing the 3 metalworker to 3 p. revoker mainboard. Its so essential against canadian trash, c. breakfast, liliana, jace.. I only like the wurms for their deatouch ability against real fat guys like KOR...

i also uped my ability to get back from a losing position: i now play 3 karn liberated main and 2 all is dust. They have really proven themself time and time again.

[kingofethanol]

Has anyone tested Staff of Nin? With my limited testing, I find it to be a great piece during the mid game. It feeds Metalworker/refills the hand, removes X/1 creatures (or X/2 with Voltaic Keys) and its hard to deal with. I think two should be good.

I have also thought about this card. It's sweet on paper, but I have not come up with a final consensus either. With Death and Taxes re-emerging perhaps it isn't a bad choice. It kills Revoker, Thalia, Bob, Clique, Baleful Strix (haha, that guy plays around Lodestone Golem so darn well) but at 6 mana (7 with Thalia) it just seems too late. I am not running Key, but I can imagine it to be very powerful in lists that do. Shardless Agent decks are chock full of x/2s, I'd imagine it would be hard to beat two Staff activations, with the addition of drawing a card or two(!).

Karn, Silver Golem doesn't seem like a bad addition in some metagames. He's an excellent blocker, good against Affinity (drops C. Platings and wastes lands) and obviously helps against the Stoneforge decks. The interaction between him and Spine of Ish Sah seems fun. Trade with a KotR, recycle and Vindicate once more, etc. Probably not a commonly seen play these days, but who knows.

I have always stood with the 4x Metalworker plan. When he is on the stack with ~3 cards in hand your opponent needs to respond, or know with confidence that your hand does not need him. I've chatted with some players: it is far easier to deal with Metalworker than it is to let him resolve and then try to deal with the threats that come after. Slamming two threats at a time is very overwhelming for a lot of decks. Like most decks it is incorrect to rely on one card entirely. Playing carefully would make MW relatively low-risk and high-reward.

I've put some Tangle Wire in my 75. While it can buy you a few turns it just seems terrible to draw late game. Decks that play instant speed spells can easily work around it, too. After a few small tourneys I took it out. If someone has found success with Tangle Wire, please respond. I like the card a lot and would like to know how powerful it is or isn't.

I've also been running a few Thirst for Knowledge. I have avoided the red build for some time now, as I rather have Chalice on 1 with no draw backs. The extra card draw TFK provides has pushed the deck's play by a tad more, and I've been impressed. It can advance you, dig you out of bad scenarios, discard your BSC, and can make Metalworker activations more powerful (draw 3, discard useless cards, tap for 6 or more, etc). I've played with Jon Finkel's world champ deck from the Urza block ages, and the deck runs Brainstorm. Casting BS with MW in play was absolutely absurd. TFK is as close as it gets.

While obviously powerful, I have avoided Batterskull due to Abrupt Decay. It's annoying to lose your 5-drop blocker to a 2 mana spell. I would play Batterskull if StP/Terminus was more prevalent than AD. Just a meta call on my part.

I do believe you can make a Stax list work. You can 1 for 1 in tempo plays and permanents while you set up mana rocks. I can imagine Thran Dynamo would be very strong, and Key would be played to keep your Monoliths alive under lock. Myr Battlesphere can make you go very aggressive with the Smokestack/Tangle Wire plan. So perhaps a Chalice-in-the-board build with Keys and Sensei's Divining Tops?

I'm not much of a standard player, but I suddenly realized that this deck can resemble what the Aristocrats, Act2 is to standard. We have a great mid-range plan, with the ability to combo off and win when given the opportunity (Blightsteel, Staff, Chalice against some decks; Boros Reckoner, Blasphemous Act). We have the ability to play safe or go big. Choosing when to do so makes the player, I guess.

[Esper3k]

My current list runs 3x Metalworker and it's been fine. There were too many times where you get to untap with him (and gods forbid you have a Key) and just go nuts regardless of the build you're playing.

I've played with both Staff of Nim and Karn, Silver Golem. Fundamentally, I just liked having more Batterskulls, Karn Liberateds, and All Is Dust.

[Alex Holland]

Esper3k,

What are u running? Sounds like my version

Ot: i apologise for dissing karn silver golem, yesterday i tested him instead of godo. Why? Bcuz i run 3 thran dynamo and 4 batterskull. Batterskull is kinda mana intensive to get back online after the germ dies so 1 mana 5/5 is kinda cool. Ill post my kick ass list later today.

[Esper3k]

I haven't played the deck in awhile, but here's the list I had been working with when I last played it:

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
3 [M12] Buried Ruin
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [MPR] Wasteland
4 [EX] City of Traitors

// Creatures
4 [SOM] Wurmcoil Engine
4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
3 [UD] Metalworker

// Spells
4 [UL] Grim Monolith
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
2 [NPH] Karn Liberated
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [M11] Voltaic Key
4 [ARC] Thran Dynamo
3 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [ROE] All Is Dust

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 1 [NPH] Karn Liberated
SB: 1 [NPH] Batterskull
SB: 1 [ROE] All Is Dust
SB: 4 [EX] Sphere of Resistance
SB: 3 [US] Smokestack
SB: 2 [MI] Cursed Totem
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere

[Zirath]

@Staff: I've been ambivalent. Sometimes it's wonderful and sometimes it just contributes to the deck's excessive mana curve.

@Karn, Silver Golem: I've always wanted to try him but never got around to it. With the specific suite of cards we play in Stompy, I think he could very successful.

[Alex Holland]

This is what i have been testing. getting very mixed results:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Rishadan Port

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Batterskull
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Metalworker
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Karn, Silver Golem

4 Chalice of the Void

3 Karn Liberated
2 All Is Dust

3 Thran Dynamo
4 Grim Monolith

SB: 4 Trinisphere
SB: 4 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb

NOTE: karakas any good here? just got legendary kicked..

[Bionitech]

Went 3-2-0 At a local store with MUD Stompy. The list goes as follows.

Land - 22
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Rishadan Port
3 Cavern of Souls

Creatures
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Blighsteel Colossus
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Sundering Titan

Artifact
4 Grim Monolith
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Mox Diamond
3 Batterskull
2 Voltaic Key
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard
3 Tangle Wire
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Staff of Domination
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 All is Dust


The two games lost were to tempo lists like Death & Taxes and Junk Deathblade. After emptying my hand they could recover better than I could and overwhelm me. Also I mulled down again the Taxes deck and not getting a chalice both games, which really spelled only doom for me.

Three games won were Omnitell, MonoU MUD and Storm.
Storm was played by a buddy of mine and he knew what I was packing, so he practically gave me a 2-0 (we played it out, match for us didn't even last 5 min as I had a chalice and trin sphere both games)
MonoU MUD was a fairly janky list that just could not stop me powering out hard and hitting with all my finishers.
OmniTell was a close and very lucky game. I had him port locked with a trinisphere and even when he had omiscience out he was down on land (landed sundering titan and had factories hitting him, he couldn't win outright because he was paying an alternate cost for his spells and the cost was not needing to pay the mana cost, and trinisphere essentially made them pay 3...for that "free" spell) and G2 I kept a hand with spine of ish sah and baited metalworker. The moment he revealed his Show & Tell as Emrakul, it died to the Spine and I proceeded to hit him down with an animated spine via Karn. It was a very, very lucky game.

The metagame in my area is very good and is also very tough, filled with a lot of skilled players. So for a deck like MUD it's a serious trial by fire and it's not a metagame that is friendly to combo players either, so I encounter games where I just lose because I don't mulligan aggressively enough. Also fun fact the featured deck that day was Oops, All Spells (Budget zero land deck that went 4-1, it's insane).

[HansonWK]

This is the list I've been playing with for the last month. It changes week by week though really. New additions are moving the Chalice to main, I have a lot of delver decks and UWR, BUG, its great against all of them.

1 Mox Opal
2 Voltaic Key
4 Grim Monolith
1 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
1 Mountain
4 Cavern of Souls

3 Goblin Welder
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Metalworker
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Steel Hellkite

1 Staff of Nin
1 Lightning Greaves
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
1 Staff of Domination

2 Karn Liberated

SB: 3 Faithless Looting
SB: 2 Duplicant
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Steel Hellkite
SB: 1 Goblin Welder
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage

Faithless Looting normally go in when the Chalice's come out. Duplicant is for Omnishow, the mirror, and any other deck that plays annoying creatures. I came first as last weeks legacy, 3rd at the one previous, and 3rd the time before that (we have evetns every 2 weeks)

[(nameless one)]

Wouldn't you consider Revokers on the main with all the Deathrite Shamans in the format? Its also great in stopping planeswalkers.

[Bionitech]

Revokers are a sideboard card because you won't always be playing against Deathblade/Stoneblade decks. It takes G1 to figure out what you're playing against and G2 & 3 and that's when Revokers come in handy. It's only when you frequent a shop weekly and know who the attendees are and what they play do you usually mainboard Revokers. So there are some exceptions. I don't go to shops frequently so I keep them sideboarded.

[Zirath]

Revokers are a sideboard card because you won't always be playing against Deathblade/Stoneblade decks. It takes G1 to figure out what you're playing against and G2 & 3 and that's when Revokers come in handy. It's only when you frequent a shop weekly and know who the attendees are and what they play do you usually mainboard Revokers. So there are some exceptions. I don't go to shops frequently so I keep them sideboarded.

You actually can usually make a play with Revoker independently of that. Even from the first fetchland to come down.

[(nameless one)]

This is the list I've been playing with for the last month. It changes week by week though really. New additions are moving the Chalice to main, I have a lot of delver decks and UWR, BUG, its great against all of them.

1 Mox Opal
2 Voltaic Key
4 Grim Monolith
1 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
1 Mountain
4 Cavern of Souls

3 Goblin Welder
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Metalworker
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Steel Hellkite

1 Staff of Nin
1 Lightning Greaves
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
1 Staff of Domination

2 Karn Liberated

SB: 3 Faithless Looting
SB: 2 Duplicant
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Steel Hellkite
SB: 1 Goblin Welder
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage

Faithless Looting normally go in when the Chalice's come out. Duplicant is for Omnishow, the mirror, and any other deck that plays annoying creatures. I came first as last weeks legacy, 3rd at the one previous, and 3rd the time before that (we have evetns every 2 weeks)



Reviewing your list, how was Karn in the Welder shell? Are there anything you wanted to change on this? Was Welder good at what it did? Did you miss Faithless Looting from the main?

[HansonWK]

Went 3-1 and came first on tie breakers at our weekly legacy today, playing the list I posted earlier, ecept the Grafdigger's cage were Tormod's Crypt. I also played +1 Wasteland because I traded for one finally, and -1 Wurmcoil Engine. I was mana screwed a bit last time I played, so having an extra land felt fine. Grafdigger's Cage is terrible, it doesnt let us weld or fetch things with forgemaster. I dunno why I put Grafdiggers on the list, probably because I've been playing them in sneak attack. I went 2-0 vs Nic Fit, 2-1 vs Jund, 1-2 vs RUG Delver (damn stiffle) 2-0 vs Goblins.

Goblin Welder works really well in the list even without the Faithless Lootings. It makes your opponents discard worse as you can weld things back in, you can weld out Monoliths that you have tapped and make more mana when you weld them back in. They are also good against other artifact decks. I sometimes sideboarded 1 out, and against Jund I borded all 3 out (bolt, abrupt decay, and being the first thoughtseize target make them less good, the gy hate they side in becomes a dead cards) Sometimes it feels weird having them in when you can't fill up your graveyard, but then you start flipping Wurmcoils in and out to make an army, or turn a spent monolithe into the Metalworker that got bolted, untap, and make lots of mana and you remember why they are so good in the deck. Sometimes you only need 2 if they aren't playing much removal, counterspells, or discard, but thats pretty rare these days.

Karn was fun as a 7 mana oops I win button, I might swap one back to a Wurmcoil though.

I didn't miss Faithless Looting at all, Chalice on 1 won me at least 2 games on its own, and played a major part in 2 others. (Not bad out of 10 games)
Changes I might make are -1 Steel Hellkite in the sideboard for something else as I never sided it in. I might also cut a 3sphere for a City of Traitors if I can get my hands on one. Playing a 3sphere, then getting your sol lands wastelanded and being back a few turns hurts, its how I lost vs RUG delver, and being behind meant I could afford to play around wasteland in game 3 vs rug delver as I would die the next turn anyway. Drawing a trinisphere when you have one out already sucks, so I think 3 is fine. Might put the 4th in the board instead of the Hellkite for the matchups its essential against.

I'll try and write a full report on Sunday after the tournament. (1st is a box of MM!)

[(nameless one)]

Good luck man.

Let us know how it goes.

[Alex Holland]

Revokers are a sideboard card because you won't always be playing against Deathblade/Stoneblade decks. It takes G1 to figure out what you're playing against and G2 & 3 and that's when Revokers come in handy. It's only when you frequent a shop weekly and know who the attendees are and what they play do you usually mainboard Revokers. So there are some exceptions. I don't go to shops frequently so I keep them sideboarded.

No way. You can keep them in hand to see what they are playing. Youll often know after a turn. There amazing in taking out liliana, jace, deatrite, top, lavamancer and a lot more. Always run 4. Youll need them.

Im baffled stompy doesnt get the love it deserves here, its much more resilient against combo like dredge or storm variations. Hating other decks without discriminating is awesome. Youll never be without a change.

[kingtk3]

Totally agree with Alex: RUG apart all decks have something to name with revoker, and I've never lost a match against combo with stompy mud. One of the best play is turn 2 golem, turn 3 metamorph cloning golem: there aren't many decks capable of replying this.

[Alex Holland]

Totally agree with Alex: RUG apart all decks have something to name with revoker, and I've never lost a match against combo with stompy mud. One of the best play is turn 2 golem, turn 3 metamorph cloning golem: there aren't many decks capable of replying this.

i am not sure about metamorph.. yes hes amazing for his manacost becoming either a monolith or a wurmcoil adding to the consistency of the deck, however i simply dont have space to fit him :tongue:

This is my list now, special shout out to scarecrone, he's my rescue unit wich can give nice extra draws by saccing mutavaults to him. Quitte a simple list, but doing so good with it.

RAMP
4#Grim Monolith
3#Thran Dynamo
4 Metalworker

DEFENCE
4#Lodestone Golem
2#Scarecrone
4#Phyrexian Revoker
4#Chalice of the Void

HITTERS
4#Wurmcoil Engine
4#Batterskull

LANDS
4#Ancient Tomb
4#Cavern of Souls|
4#City of Traitors
4#Mutavault
2#Rishadan Port
4#Wasteland|

LAST RESORT PACKAGE
3#Karn Liberated|
2#All Is Dust

// sideboard

2#Crucible of Worlds
2#Ratchet Bomb
3#Tormod’s Crypt
4#Faerie Macabre
4#Trinisphere

[kingtk3]

I like the shape of your deck, especially the redundancy of the many 4x.
However I've got a couple off questions.

Playing 4 batterskull and 4 wurmcoil seems a bit overkill: couldn't you accommodate the numbers of those two in order to play at least a couple of steel hellkite?

Scarecrone seems a bit slow: do you ever thought playing goblin welder instead?

Why mutavault instead of mishra factory?

[Alex Holland]

I like the shape of your deck, especially the redundancy of the many 4x.
However I've got a couple off questions.

Playing 4 batterskull and 4 wurmcoil seems a bit overkill: couldn't you accommodate the numbers of those two in order to play at least a couple of steel hellkite?

Scarecrone seems a bit slow: do you ever thought playing goblin welder instead?

Why mutavault instead of mishra factory?

Well not having flyers kinda hurts at times, especially against vendillion clique wich deals 3 unblockable damage a turn against me. However i feel the 8 lifelink guys have certain upsides too, i can out race many decks in direct damage just ignoring their flyers. Dropping one kills burn decks instantly too. And i feel the live is important because a hand with 2 ancient tombs can drain your life fast while setting up a position. Wurmcoil is also awesome because of the deatouch and his smaller reincarnations. Batterskull is awesome because of thw vigilance and all the tricks he can perform. One ignores desteoy effects and rhe other ignores exile effects. A dynamic duo!

I dont play welder because the caverns are reserved for game winners. I feel scarecrone is easy useable with our mana.

The mutavaults are just there instead of factories because of scarecrone. If i have a long game i can animate them and sac them as scarecrows to scarecrone thus drawing another card. Its a bit of a stretch maybe, but in at least one game i sacced three and dug up a all is dust ending the game. Just a personal twist to the deck, but fun neverthless.

[SirTylerGalt]

The mutavaults are just there instead of factories because of scarecrone. If i have a long game i can animate them and sac them as scarecrows to scarecrone thus drawing another card. Its a bit of a stretch maybe, but in at least one game i sacced three and dug up a all is dust ending the game. Just a personal twist to the deck, but fun neverthless.

If I wanted a draw engine in MUD, I'd rather use these combos:
- Goblin Welder + Sensei's Divining Top
- Voltaic Key + Sensei's Divining Top

Add a few Trading Post and Prototype Portal for even more CA.

[Alex Holland]

If I wanted a draw engine in MUD, I'd rather use these combos:
- Goblin Welder + Sensei's Divining Top
- Voltaic Key + Sensei's Divining Top

Add a few Trading Post and Prototype Portal for even more CA.

But they are all 1 mana cards. And my most common play t1 is city or tomb into chalice @ 1. Thats an amazing play against many decks. Stompy isnt a combo deck, its more of a anti-combo deck i think LOL

[SirTylerGalt]

But they are all 1 mana cards. And my most common play t1 is city or tomb into chalice @ 1. Thats an amazing play against many decks. Stompy isnt a combo deck, its more of a anti-combo deck i think LOL

In MUD Stompy, I like Crucible of Worlds for recurring CA. Combined with Buried Ruin, Mishra's Factory, and Wasteland, it's a pretty good CA engine :) Buried Ruin can even reclaim a countered Crucible to start the combo :)

BTW, did anyone consider porting to Legacy MUD the idea of playing 8 man lands, as they do in the Vintage Terra Nova deck lists?

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=52155

Factory can boost your Mutavaults, since they are also Assembly Workers ;)

[kingtk3]

I think that crucible recursion is too slow for legacy, unless you're playing against slow control decks.

The terra nova list is intriguing, but I think that needs more permanent control for winning in legacy: maybe smokestack? With that and trinisphere and crucible in play you can lock the opponent out of the game, but it requires a lot of setup.

[Alex Holland]

Its a good sideboard..

Im considering dropping my ports; i use ports almost never.. waste of space (and money)? Maybe i will switch them for buried ruins, for more safety.

[kingtk3]

The ports are better the more taxing effect you play, like golem, trinisphere and phyrexian metamorph. If you are not committing on those there are better options (even manlands).

[apple713]

Has anyone considered adding dark depths combo to this deck? They are just lands and if people are talking about opening up land spots this seems like a great opportunity.

I've tested the deck extensively in other shells and its weakness are combo decks that are faster, Swords / path , activated abilities like karakas / maze of ith.

Its strengths are that it provides an uncounterable way win the game via lands. and can be given haste with lightning greaves. It can be activated t3 ancient tomb, thespian stage, dark depths as land drops. In yalls deck it might even be able to be activated sooner with stage and depths being your only 2 land drops.

Kinda feel like it fits the Overpowering combo theme.

anyone have ideas on this?

[kingtk3]

I think that you need to devote 8 land spaces or use expedition map to assemble the combo. Unfortunately I don't have time to test right now... :/

[Alex Holland]

The problem with The land combo is that it probaly needs another color to work. And i dont like to mess up my mana base too much.. 8 sol lands are the foundation of the deck. And wastelands are kinda mandatory in legacy.

Id rather search for a way to include Another combo: grindstone painter. It has been done to some succes in a forgemaster shell i believe. Painter + all is dust is also sor of funny cuz it will also sweep lands if im right.

[HansonWK]

Going to a legacy tourney in 12 hours and I'm debating what I should be running in my one of slot. It is currently Staff of Nin, but I'm not happy with it. I need a singleton Forgemast target. I'm thinking of either Crucible (helps vs wasteland, particularly Pox and Loam decks), keeping staff (Kills mother of runes, bob, thalia, couple other relevant creatures, draws cards) or Spine of Ish Shaw (Kills creatures, planeswalkers, annoying permanents like grafdiggers cage). I will probably decide between the three when I get there depending on the meta. I'll hopefully have a tournament report for you guys tomorrow as well.

[Fry]

I'd personally either keep the Staff of Nin (I love that card), or make it into the Spine of Ish Sah... Great when you sac it to tutor again... I don't know your list though. It's just what my opinion is being completely blind about the actual list you plan on playing.

[HansonWK]

I'd personally either keep the Staff of Nin (I love that card), or make it into the Spine of Ish Sah... Great when you sac it to tutor again... I don't know your list though. It's just what my opinion is being completely blind about the actual list you plan on playing.

List was posted a few posts above. I'm thinking Spine of Ish Sah because last tournament, I lost to Grafdiggers Cage, and Spine is an answer I can tutor for through Grafdigers cage. Though I know there are a couple Agro Loam players, so might play the Crucible or put it in the side. (They waste us out hard)

[kingtk3]

I would go for spine, I don't really like staff of nim in a combo build since its benefits pile up during the turns but you plan on winning in a couple of turns after the first activation of forgemaster

[fogxanic]

Hey check this new card http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=145237&d=1378180951
Good for fighting against miracles and we can hide there some random stuff and use ability to get all permanents onboard.

[Sea R Hill]

Hey check this new card http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=145237&d=1378180951
Good for fighting against miracles and we can hide there some random stuff and use ability to get all permanents onboard.

This sucks.
Miracle is a good MU anyway. I'd rather have something to consistently beat Shardless.

[kingtk3]

Why you want to make a gift to your opponent? This deck plays cards like golem, chalice or trinisphere exactly to prevent opponent from playing.
And I don't even want to think of your opponent exiling emrakul (now harder to beat after the legend rule update) or omniscience...

EDIT: I know you were referring only to the miracle matchup, but I want to stress how this card seems unplayable to me. The miracle matchup doesn't seems so bad, but if you are having problems I advise you to play some batterskull (good with many decks of the field) or uba mask

[fogxanic]

Ofcource we would activate that opponents eot or greaves on bf and possibility to attack lethal. Not good against heavy permanent deck like mud but some decks with more spells (like solidarity, storm etc.)

[Sea R Hill]

Ofcource we would activate that opponents eot or greaves on bf and possibility to attack lethal. Not good against heavy permanent deck like mud but some decks with more spells (like solidarity, storm etc.)

Are you drunk or typing with your feet?
I didn't understand a single thing.

[Barsoom]

I play the forgemaster welder-less version and i'm having problems against miracle too; practically i side out most of the aggro cause winning that way is kinda impossible and i try to win as quickly as possible with the combo while stopping the Sense's Divining Top with Phyrexian Revoker.
I did not know the Uba Mask card indeed it can be useful against it cause it stops terminus and if i understood it correctly it's really annoying against Brainstorm too cause the player must still put up 2 cards on the top right? i'll try to test it with a 2x sideboard; if anyone else has other suggestions for cards against Miracle i'm interested.

[Esper3k]

I second Batterskulls and Revokers against Miracles. Of course, Chalice is also great against them as well. Karn Liberated is also a bad man against control decks.

[fogxanic]

Are you drunk or typing with your feet?
I didn't understand a single thing.

Sorry, english is not my main language and I was writing with phone :smile:

[bruizar]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=145323&d=1378267954

Yes, I'm serious.

protection from lightning bolt, delver of secrets and swords to plowshares, as well as fast evasive beats. Also, beats Jace with haste and evasion. Random monstrosity is just icing.

[Barsoom]

It's strong but double red man is imho too hard to reach with this deck, 4 Great Furnace are not enought, maybe with 2 Mox Opal but i'm not convinced; it's not even an artifact, i think MUD is not the right deck for it.

[(nameless one)]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=145323&d=1378267954

Yes, I'm serious.

protection from lightning bolt, delver of secrets and swords to plowshares, as well as fast evasive beats. Also, beats Jace with haste and evasion. Random monstrosity is just icing.

This is not the thread you're looking for (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?19745-Deck-Dragon-Stompy)

[SirTylerGalt]

It's strong but double red man is imho too hard to reach with this deck, 4 Great Furnace are not enought, maybe with 2 Mox Opal but i'm not convinced; it's not even an artifact, i think MUD is not the right deck for it.

I think bruizar was suggesting the dragon for Godo MUD, the red version he pioneered:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23388-Deck-MUD-(Metalworker)&p=695113&viewfull=1#post695113

[bruizar]

I think bruizar was suggesting the dragon for Godo MUD, the red version he pioneered:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23388-Deck-MUD-(Metalworker)&p=695113&viewfull=1#post695113

Yeah you are right. I believe that red has too many good options to negate, especially for side boarding, and I also believe that basic mountains make the deck much more reliable. RR isn't really that hard. Moltensteel Dragon is easier to cast, but protection from white is huge.

[SirTylerGalt]

Yeah you are right. I believe that red has too many good options to negate, especially for side boarding, and I also believe that basic mountains make the deck much more reliable. RR isn't really that hard. Moltensteel Dragon is easier to cast, but protection from white is huge.

What about Hammer of Purphoros ( http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/hammer-of-purphoros/ )? I hate it when I cast Goblin Welder / Metalworker, and get it bolted before my next turn... It's even better than Lightning Greaves, since they can't kill it in response to equipping. You can also use it to attack with a hasty Godo + Batterskull. It also lets you apply pressure with 3/3 golems.

[bruizar]

What about Hammer of Purphoros ( http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/hammer-of-purphoros/ )? I hate it when I cast Goblin Welder / Metalworker, and get it bolted before my next turn... It's even better than Lightning Greaves, since they can't kill it in response to equipping. You can also use it to attack with a hasty Godo + Batterskull. It also lets you apply pressure with 3/3 golems.

Interesting card. Too expensive for relying on the golems alone, but good against sweepers, and the haste is helpful. Not sure if it's costed efficiently enough but if there is any deck where this would do something, it would be here.

[piZZero]

What about Hammer of Purphoros ( http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/hammer-of-purphoros/ )? I hate it when I cast Goblin Welder / Metalworker, and get it bolted before my next turn... It's even better than Lightning Greaves, since they can't kill it in response to equipping. You can also use it to attack with a hasty Godo + Batterskull. It also lets you apply pressure with 3/3 golems.

Thousand-Year Elixir is superior and colorless.

[bruizar]

@PIzzero: True, main problem is that haste wants to happen quickly, which means low casting cost. As long as there is lightning greaves, it will not see play. Then again, I do like the ability. I don't think thousand-year elixir is superior per se though. I would rather have something that can generate 3/3 hasters out of nothing than being able to untap a lodestone golem, or even a goblin welder, since, in the advent of a lightning bolt, you have nothing to give haste to. In that sense I think it is an upgrade, but the double red make it a hard sell. Also, Crucible of Worlds gives you a constant flow of dudes, but now we definitely embarked for casual town.

2R would have been a thumbs up for testing in my book, since it would curve nicely off of an Ancient Tomb and Metalworker could use it to nearly pay for itself. 1RR puts it back to turn 3, and thus ruins it. Still a cool card.

EDIT:

I was enthralled by Bow of Nylea initially http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=145035&d=1377848125 . I have a soft spot for versatile cards. The card reminds me of Trading Post, but even though the abilities are minor; the mana cost is impossible and the abilities not really suited for MUD.

[Alex Holland]

Man, im losing faith in this deck rapidly. there are just so many mana-cheap and good cards toon fight against in legacy. Theros should offer us some new fresh playable artifacts fast..

where is the brown version of a delver/ deatrite/ pyromancer critter?

really would like a 4 or 5 mana artifact to replace batterskull. Wurmcoil is just better against artifact hate because at least he will give u 2 new creatures when destroyed. and 2x deatouch is huge. thumbs crossed for a trojan horse of 5 mana wich spits out heavily armed soldiers :rolleyes:

[kingtk3]

where is the brown version of a delver/ deatrite/ pyromancer critter?


I don't think something like that will be print: those are cards defined, thus limited, by their color while an artifact can be played in any deck. Right now the fastest things we have, regarding mana cost, are phyrexian revoker, metalworker and phyrexian metamorph, which aren't half bad.

[Barsoom]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=145603&d=1378785638

Mmmm.... the tokens are white too not even artifacts...

[Sea R Hill]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=145603&d=1378785638

Mmmm.... the tokens are white too not even artifacts...

Is every bad spoiled artifact gonna be suggested in this thread?
Come on guys, be serious.

[(nameless one)]

Is every bad spoiled artifact gonna be suggested in this thread?
Come on guys, be serious.

Well, everytime I see an artifact being spoiled, the comment is always "gonna be good in Stax".

[Barsoom]

I was not suggesting it, my post was an aswer to Alex Holland, really that was kinda obvious.

[Sea R Hill]

I was not suggesting it, my post was an aswer to Alex Holland, really that was kinda obvious.

Ok!
Sorry I thought this was a suggestion because I don't even read his posts. ;)

[Alex Holland]

theros gives us no love :tongue:

well, i did have fun playing mud last night (uwr stoneforge 2-0, pox 2-1) so ill keep it up..

OT: still waiting for a good list that runs smokestack.. card is broken and needs a home! synergy with wurmcoil is obvious.. any more ideas/synergy?

[SirTylerGalt]

theros gives us no love :tongue:

well, i did have fun playing mud last night (uwr stoneforge 2-0, pox 2-1) so ill keep it up..

OT: still waiting for a good list that runs smokestack.. card is broken and needs a home! synergy with wurmcoil is obvious.. any more ideas/synergy?

I'd go with a build with no Chalice of the void, to play Goblin Welder + Voltaic Key + Sensei's Divining Top. Voltaic Key gives much-needed acceleration, and comboes with Sensei's Top to generate card advantage (like Welder).

I would then play resistors (Sphere of Resistance, Lodestone Golem, possibly Thorn of Amethyst, Sculpting Steel to copy other artefacts) to slow down my opponent.

The Stax aspect would be done with Smokestack + Tangle Wire + Prototype Portal. As was discussed a few months ago in this thread, you can imprint Tangle Wire on Prototype Portal, which lets you put up to 4 Tangle Wire into play, making your opponent tap 10 permanents per turn, while you tap a lot less... You can also imprint a Sculpting Steel and go nuts.

I would also have 4 Wasteland + 4 Rishadan Port + a few crucible for recursion.

Batterskull is also a good beater that combines well with Smokestack, since you can sac the germ token...

Not sure if everything fits in the deck, though...

[Alex Holland]

Maybe... storage matrix?

(3) artifact: untap only artifacts, lands or creatures.. slows down play and could be in muds advantage especially when u play artifact lands and much artifact mana sources like dynamo.

[SirTylerGalt]

Maybe... storage matrix?

(3) artifact: untap only artifacts, lands or creatures.. slows down play and could be in muds advantage especially when u play artifact lands and much artifact mana sources like dynamo.

Nice idea.

Made me think of Sands of time, combined with the M14 card Strionic Resonator. I think somebody discussed it on The Source when M14 was spoiled, but I don't remember where.

You can use it to keep your opponent's creatures tapped. You can also generate infinite mana during your upkeep. Not sure how to convert that infinite mana into a win, though...

[kingtk3]

Nice idea.

Made me think of Sands of time, combined with the M14 card Strionic Resonator. I think somebody discussed it on The Source when M14 was spoiled, but I don't remember where.

You can use it to keep your opponent's creatures tapped. You can also generate infinite mana during your upkeep. Not sure how to convert that infinite mana into a win, though...
I think you are looking for rocket launcher or goblin festival ;-)

[Just me]

So, I finally played a tourney with this deck. Just 8 players but is was to get a chance to play again.

I played welders maindeck, with some Lotus Petals to get things welding a.s.a.p. and have another shot a 2 mana on turn 1. 3 kuldotha Forgemaster and pretty stocklist beyond that. Maybe I'll post the list later (this a quick report while cooking dinner).

round 1
Playing against somebody who is in his first legacy event, playing a borrowed deck with some foreign cards. A mix of maverick and Rock I guess. Anyway, first game I have some wastelands and Golems against a manalight draw. Second game I lock quite a few cards under a Chalice. Easy win. afterwards I play my Goblin deck against him which he wins handily.

round 2
Match against combo (storm). Fast chalice in both games (first game topdeck it after a discardspell, sweet!). That seems really the main thing in this matchup, get that chalice down a.s.a.p. (preferably 2 of them, at 0 and 1).

Round 3
Against my own reanimator-deck, which I lended out. Nice tense match. Sideboarded Duplicant took out the Blazing Archon so my Blightsteel Colossus could bring it home. Nice job by the Forgemaster. Welder also proved great since both discard and counters are pretty bad once that goblin is doing it's thing.

Round 4
Enchantress, with blue for words of bouncing. Game one, he accidently shuffled his hand away when fetching land and using Zenith in one move (speed things up). so he scooped them up. Anyway, attacking Wurmcoil + incoming Sundering Titan would have won me that game anyway at that point.
Second game we both have good hand but that means I win since MUD is faster. Turn 3 hardcast Blightsteel and win while he was busy setting up his engine.

Round 5
Painters Servant, another combo game. First I win easy since the deck explodes again on mana and threats. Second game the same story, except he drops a last minute Ensnaring Bridge for which I have no answer in the 75. Third game he wins after we both get stuck. He stalls on land with the combo on the battlefield but being unable to kill my Phyrexian Revoker. Eventually he finds a Jaya Ballard Taskmage to kill my stuff while I find more mana. Still, I did have about 4 turns to find a real threat and put on the pressure. No luck.

4-1, win the tournament and byes to BOM in Paris. nice, :)

Lessons learned, I want at least a single Spine of Ishes Ash (name?) in the 75. And it a fun deck to play with but probably not so much to play against ;-)

[(nameless one)]

Good job

Would you like to share your list?

[frogger42]

You can use it to keep your opponent's creatures tapped. You can also generate infinite mana during your upkeep. Not sure how to convert that infinite mana into a win, though...

Staff of Domination? It's not quite as good as getting your deck in hand during your main phase (with Metalworker) but it still gains life and could draw you into some spicy. Or throw in 1x Shimmer Myr...

[Sunsatzu]

i love mud, but am still yet to beat elves in a match, currently going to try a board in including 4 Ensnaring Bridge; 2 Bottled Cloister. idea for siding out is the welders, Sundering Titan, but after this im not sure. im running stock list with 4 CotV. any ideas for what i dont really need vs elves? or just advice as to how to win against them?

[Just me]

Good job

Would you like to share your list?

Yes I do. Got the time now :smile:.

3 Goblin Welder
2 Lightning greaves
2 Batterskull
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
4 Metalworker
3 Lotus Petal
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Voltaic Key
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
1 Mountain
4 Great Furnace
4 Wasteland
1 Darksteel Citadel
3 Cavern of Souls

SB
2 Tormods Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Platinum Emperion
2 Trinisphere
2 Bottled Cloister
2 All is Dust
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Duplicant
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Engineered Explosives

More thoughts on the deck;
-Phyrexian Revoker is really good when it's good.
-Batterskul was never that good, just a worse (much worse) Wurmcoil
-The single thran Dynamo never made a big impact
-Lotus Petals were pretty nice
-Welder is a bomb (nothing new here, but I was great to have it online).
-Maximizing Welder + Forgemaster might require a maindeck Myr Battlesphere
-Selfmill (Faithless Looting) remains interesting with Welder but requires maybe to much red
-Bloodmoon might be nice to but more colored cards keep making Metalworker worse

[frogger42]

Man, im losing faith in this deck rapidly. there are just so many mana-cheap and good cards toon fight against in legacy. Theros should offer us some new fresh playable artifacts fast..

where is the brown version of a delver/ deatrite/ pyromancer critter?


What are the tough MUs for this deck? Is it aggro (Goblins/ Zoo), Tempo (RUG), midrange (Jund, Mav)? Some other stuff? I'm curious to possibly tinker with the deck and wanted to know where it has gaps in its offense/defense. I think it was mentioned near the start of this thread, but The Abyss does deal with Goyf, Deathrite, SFM/Batterskull and just about all the other creatures that are more efficient than our creatures. Also, instead of Abyss, you can go something similar to old Sea Stompy and run smaller dudes + a tonna Jittes/ SoFIs. That'd be harder to do as the main option for that route would be Lodestone.

[Sunsatzu]

Tough mu's for me have been-

Omni-Tell
Elves
UW Miracles
Esper Deathblade

maindeck things you can do is run 4 Lodestone Golem(many run 3), as well as md Spine of Ish Sah and Steel Hellkite, should these decks be in your meta.

[Alex Holland]

Tough mu's for me have been-

Omni-Tell
Elves
UW Miracles
Esper Deathblade

maindeck things you can do is run 4 Lodestone Golem(many run 3), as well as md Spine of Ish Sah and Steel Hellkite, should these decks be in your meta.

i already run 4 main always since i play stompy.

my arch enemies:

Goblins/elves
show and tell
pox (hymn to tourach! land destruction!)

Against elves/goblins its just a race. Dropping a wurm or germ wirh lifelink wins u that race. As does all is dust x2 main. Taking out vials with revokers is priceless. Someone knows what i should name against elves? Im really inexperienced against those green dudes.

What really annoys me is the incredible amount of counter decks with delver in them. Thank god we have cavern nowadays but its still a race to beat them.

Dredge and reanimate is also hard, but i have a very anti gy sideboard.

[kingofethanol]

Good job, Just Me, congrats on the finish.

I have been on a bit of a MUD hiatus right now, as I've been noodling around with other decks.
I've used the lame excuse of "not being able to afford" Cavern of Souls, but with rotation just around the corner, it seems like a great opportunity to pick up a set. I have been playing the Chalice build for a long time, and I never liked having dead draws mid-game during initial testing. However I think its time that I consider the Chalice-on-one Cavern-on-Goblins plan.

A minor lament: Baleful Strix and Shardless Agent are artifacts, which get around the Lodestone tax. Lodestone does complicate cascade, but Strix is such an annoying wall for the deck it seems.

Historically, I've had a really hard time with most UWx variants. Elves hasn't been hugely out of my favor, and I have not tested against Omni-Show. Delver is a coin flip, and we outclass most mid-range decks.

[kingtk3]

i already run 4 main always since i play stompy.

my arch enemies:

Goblins/elves
show and tell
pox (hymn to tourach! land destruction!)

Against elves/goblins its just a race. Dropping a wurm or germ wirh lifelink wins u that race. As does all is dust x2 main. Taking out vials with revokers is priceless. Someone knows what i should name against elves? Im really inexperienced against those green dudes.

What really annoys me is the incredible amount of counter decks with delver in them. Thank god we have cavern nowadays but its still a race to beat them.

Dredge and reanimate is also hard, but i have a very anti gy sideboard.

I play the stompy version with Godo.

The decks I found out the thougher are the ones which attack the hand and the mana base, so pox deck are quite a nightmare.
Maverick and other utility decks are bad news too, because they have main deck artifact hate, cheap removals and a mana curve that can play through a chalice@1.

Goblin is almost non existent in my LGS, but I found elves and show&tell decks quite winnable, so as for the others combo deck.

Against elves the first card you have to name with revoker is Wirewood Symbiote since it gives them extra activation of shaman (or other mana elves) but most importantly let them re-play elvish visionary or an untapped heritage druid, which is the second card you should name. Note that the symbiote enable some combat tricks for negating lifelink from batterskull or wurmcoil.

Remeber that chalice@1 shuts down the most of their deck but they still can Natural Order for craterhoof beheemot or progenitus (if they run it in side), so keep an eye at your life total even if you are highand try to land some resistor like golem. Obviously chalice@1 and @4 shuts their deck.

[Alex Holland]

I play the stompy version with Godo.

The decks I found out the thougher are the ones which attack the hand and the mana base, so pox deck are quite a nightmare.
Maverick and other utility decks are bad news too, because they have main deck artifact hate, cheap removals and a mana curve that can play through a chalice@1.

Goblin is almost non existent in my LGS, but I found elves and show&tell decks quite winnable, so as for the others combo deck.

Against elves the first card you have to name with revoker is Wirewood Symbiote since it gives them extra activation of shaman (or other mana elves) but most importantly let them re-play elvish visionary or an untapped heritage druid, which is the second card you should name. Note that the symbiote enable some combat tricks for negating lifelink from batterskull or wurmcoil.

Remeber that chalice@1 shuts down the most of their deck but they still can Natural Order for craterhoof beheemot or progenitus (if they run it in side), so keep an eye at your life total even if you are highand try to land some resistor like golem. Obviously chalice@1 and @4 shuts their deck.

I tried godo before and it was fun. But nowadays id rather drop a karn or all is dust for one extra mana.

I played elves and honestly i didnt have a clue what to name with revoker. Guess experience is tech. Goblins is easier to understand; name vial, gogogo drop worker quick. Kinda fun matchup to play, mostly the starting player has the biggest change to win i think.

I play 4 revoker 4 lodestone 4 chalice main as disruption.
So my sideboard is kinda specialised. Mostly anti graveyard with Crypts, faeries > against kor, dredge, reanimate, Goyf etc. Altough i dont a use the faerie macabres often
My best sb card however is ratchet bomb. I use it all the time to get rid of delver, goyf, pyromancer, tokens, even against a liliana lock etc. I think mud has a lot of different options for its sideboard. Any nice sugestions to replace the f. macabres? Already have 2 crucible sideboarded.

[Just me]

Good job, Just Me, congrats on the finish.

I have been on a bit of a MUD hiatus right now, as I've been noodling around with other decks.
I've used the lame excuse of "not being able to afford" Cavern of Souls, but with rotation just around the corner, it seems like a great opportunity to pick up a set. I have been playing the Chalice build for a long time, and I never liked having dead draws mid-game during initial testing. However I think its time that I consider the Chalice-on-one Cavern-on-Goblins plan.

A minor lament: Baleful Strix and Shardless Agent are artifacts, which get around the Lodestone tax. Lodestone does complicate cascade, but Strix is such an annoying wall for the deck it seems.

Historically, I've had a really hard time with most UWx variants. Elves hasn't been hugely out of my favor, and I have not tested against Omni-Show. Delver is a coin flip, and we outclass most mid-range decks.

Thanks. I've been toying with some draw-cards to fix the mid-late game with better draws (well, just more cards really). Mind's Eye, Dreamstone Hedron, these are not quite good enough. Razormane Masticore has possibilities, it gets the Welder going faster and provides removal for stuff like Baleful Strix. I will test 3 Faithless Looting to see if that works for me. After all, it turns dead cards into better ones, opens the GY for welder abuse. The downside is the non-bo with Metalworker. I really don't weant to many non-artifacts.

As to the minor lament, Baleful Strix can be welded out if they have another artifact in the GY (and the aforementioned Razormane Masticore also helps, or even just good old Masticore himself).

[ivanpei]

I've been having success with 8 moon mud (8mm) due to the many greedy manabases in legacy. Here is my list:

MD
4 Metalworker
4 Chalice
4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Lightning Greaves
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil
1 Sundering Titan

4 Grim Monolith
3 Lotus Petal
2 Mox Diamond
2 Mox Opal

3 Mountain
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

Sb
2 Wurmcoil
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Platinum Empiron
3 Trinisphere
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Revoker

I know most purists think that moons are not great in MUD. But after playing with them as a 3 off, I've been getting as many wins of a Moon as with robots. So I decided to build a moon list. Which basically ditches 2-3 of the highest cc robots, some chaff artifacts (staff, key etc) and welders for the full 8 moons.

I've been very pleased with the results. Under a moon, high cc robots are hard to cast, so I play the bare minimum for Forgemaster to abuse. I quite like the effect of ditching all these high cc robots because I don't get screwed as often with multiple high cc robots in hand when my Metalworker is answered or if I all in with Grim Monolith only to have my threat answered.

Moons are similar to robots because they win games. But unlike robots, moons are easy to cast and don't depend on grim or Metalworker. Robots are also weak to Stp and Removal while an early moon is Gg.

What I like about this build over traditional dragon stompy is that it has raw power. Mud is a powerful plan with win the game bombs like Wurmcoil and Sundering Titan. Against mono decks like elves, merfolk or goblins, I can board out my moons for robots and stuff like Revoker and Ratchet Bomb, going back to the pure power mud game plan. Dragon stompy can't do that because the threats in red are terrible.

My 2 cents, I've been loving people crying over moon when it lands.

[Sea R Hill]

I've been having success with 8 moon mud (8mm) due to the many greedy manabases in legacy. Here is my list:

MD
4 Metalworker
4 Chalice
4 Blood Moon
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Lightning Greaves
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil
1 Sundering Titan

4 Grim Monolith
3 Lotus Petal
2 Mox Diamond
2 Mox Opal

3 Mountain
4 Darksteel Forge
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

Sb
2 Wurmcoil
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Platinum Empiron
3 Trinisphere
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Revoker


I think you meant Darksteel Citadel.

[ivanpei]

I think you meant Darksteel Citadel.

Yes you are right, cheers!

[HansonWK]

Been testing something different recently. Now before you just pass it off as crazy, I think its something worth exploring. Upheaval. Upheaval is a stupid card, and i wanted to test around with it. After a week of testing, I thought I'd share my thoughts.

It wins games when you are ahead. You float mana, upheaval, recast all your things and stay further ahead.
It wins games when you are behind. You upheaval, cast a trinisphere, and suddenly you aren't behind anymore.

Upheaval and Trinisphere or Lodestone Golem is very rarely anything BUT gg. Even without a Trinisphere to ensure the victory, you are very likely to have enough ramp to replay your board either the turn you cast upheaval or the turn after while your opponent looks in awe at the awesome play you just made.

But the most important part, no one expects it, no one plays around it, no one knows how to recover or sideboard after it, and people look shocked and amazed when they realised what you have done.

Anyway, here is my current list.


4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Island
4 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod

1 Mox Opal
4 Mox Diamond
2 Basalt Monolith
4 Grim Monolith
1 Crucible of Worlds

2 Lightning Greaves
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Metalworker
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Staff of Domination
2 Voltaic Key

1 Karn Liberated
3 Upheaval
3 Trinisphere

SB: 2 Duplicant
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Steel Hellkite
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 Pyroclasm
SB: 3 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds

It still needs work, the sideboard isn't perfect, but I am going to keep working on it. I'd love some feedback/input.
Pyroclasm are for fast agro decks that can dump their hand after an upheaval, as well as an out to Teeg. Chalice of the Void is for any deck that plays lots of 1 cmc/ 0 cmc spells. Crucible is for the Loam matchup. Wurmcoil is just there because it is. Duplicant is for Show and Tell.

[ivanpei]

Upheaval's double blue is the primary problem. You can't get it reliably with that manabase.

[paeng4983]

Hello MUD players, how often (percentagely speaking) you have a first turn Chalice for one?
Thanks

[thefreakaccident]

Hello MUD players, how often (percentagely speaking) you have a first turn Chalice for one?
Thanks

...The same as any 4 of in any deck...

[SirTylerGalt]

...The same as any 4 of in any deck...

Don't you need two mana on turn one to play it? :)

[Alex Holland]

Don't you need two mana on turn one to play it? :)

Why he wants to know?

Plus t1>>>> mulligan to it if u want?

[SirTylerGalt]

Why he wants to know?

Plus t1>>>> mulligan to it if u want?

I have no idea why he wants to know that. But it's an interesting thought experiment nonetheless.

To get a T1 Chalice, you need:
- Chalice (4 / 60 )
- Sol land (8 / 60) or Land + Mox Diamond if you play that

I suck at probabilities, so I'll let you guys compute that, including mulligans :)

[Esper3k]

I have no idea why he wants to know that. But it's an interesting thought experiment nonetheless.

To get a T1 Chalice, you need:
- Chalice (4 / 60 )
- Sol land (8 / 60) or Land + Mox Diamond if you play that

I suck at probabilities, so I'll let you guys compute that, including mulligans :)

With Mox Diamond, you technically need 2 Lands + Mox Diamond...

[Barsoom]

The % to have AT LEAST one Chalice of the void and one City of Traitors OR one Ancient Tomb is 26,1%

Source --> http://deckstats.net/

This means that 1 game out of 4 you'll get it t1 on the play

[HansonWK]

Double blue has never been a problem with 4 diamonds, you don't need it till turn 3/4 at the earliest.

[Alex Holland]

The % to have AT LEAST one Chalice of the void and one City of Traitors OR one Ancient Tomb is 26,1%

Source --> http://deckstats.net/

This means that 1 game out of 4 you'll get it t1 on the play

So after 1 mulligan youll be at around 50% right?

[(nameless one)]

Against certain decks, I wouldn't mull to Chalice.

If you're playing against Storm-based combo, Revoker on LED is as as good as Chalice on one on turn one.

@paeng: what are you worried about? Are you playing or playing against MUD?

[CalebD]

Double blue has never been a problem with 4 diamonds, you don't need it till turn 3/4 at the earliest.

What about Saprazzan Skerry and/or Coalition Relic?

[Zirath]

What about Saprazzan Skerry and/or Coalition Relic?

MUD can't afford to miss plays on Turn 1 like that, especially for a fragile land.

Coalition Relic is a card I've thought about many times for splashes.

[paeng4983]

@paeng: what are you worried about? Are you playing or playing against MUD?

Most of the time I'm playing against it.
I just want to know the chances of seeing a chalice for one with MUD.
I've encountered MUD decks and most of our game one, they have this chalice for one which really upset me especially if i have a bunch of 1cc in my opening hand.

Thanks for your replies.
cheers

^_^

[Airwave]

Hi there,

I'm completely new to legacy and started last week playing MUD.
The decklist I used in a small local tournament:

Main:
4 Goblin Welder
4 Metalworker
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Platinum Empiron
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Myr Battlesphere

1 Mindslaver

3 Lightning Greaves
4 Grim Monolith
4 Lotus Petal
1 Voltaic Key

1 Mountain
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Cavern of Souls

Sideboard:

2 Blood Moon
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Trinisphere
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Masticore
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Whipflare
1 Spine of Ish Sah


I went 2-4, still having some trouble piloting the deck due to lack of experience and.... terrible hands.
I almost had to mulligan every game. While sometimes this was just bad luck the deck also tends to be "unstable" (already knew this thanks to this topic)

Furthermore, I think Chalice of the Void is a great card, but I found that is doesn't provide enough protection/hate to put it in the main deck.
So I'm now thinking about some changes:

- 4 Chalice of the Void (Moving it to sideboard)
- 4 Darksteel Citadel (Wasteland just hits another land, I found this one to be quite 'useless' apart from being an artifact land)
- 1 Steel Hellkite (Great card, but not in every match, also because it has no 'come into play effect', so I'm moving it to sideboard)
- 1 Mindslaver (Too slow for this setup I think, and also no come into play effect (unless 4 extra mana is available))
- 1 Mountain (Nobody is playing Path, only Swords and no Ghostwaste present)


I have thought about the instability of the deck and decided to add cards to fix this problem:
+ 2 Sensei's Divining Top
+ 2 Enlightened Tutor

To fix color:
+ 4 Ancient Den
+ 2 Plateau

Also:
+ 1 Blood Moon (sided this in quite often, can be searched with enlightened tutor as well)


The extra color came without a 'cost' in my sense, since I wanted to swap the citadels for another artifact land anyway and the mountain isn't needed.
Next to that I wanted one extra mana source anyway, maybe Mox Opal would even be better but I currently don't own this one. Opal would also give the artifact count +1.


The sideboard will also undergo some changes (I can add white cards in here now too):

- 1 Blood Moon (to main)
- 1 Tormod's Crypt
- 1 Masticore (card disadvantage is killing)
- 1 Ensnaring Bridge (S & T worked different than I thought)
- 1 Witchbane Orb (Insufficient protection)
- 1 Whipflare (Insufficient)


+ 3 Chalice of the Void (from main)
+ 1 Steel Hellkite (from main)
+ 1 Ghostly Prison (goblins, elves, dredge, etc.)
+ 1 Ethersworn Canonist (elves, storm, etc.)


I haven't had time to test yet, but I think this second small color splash will be worth it, since Enlightened Tutor is basically a Vampiric Tutor in this deck and I love the fact that it can search for silver bullets, just like Forgemaster can.
Master Transmuter has also been in my mind but I think it will be too slow for this setup.

If anyone has advice for me, it would be more than welcome! Also on different color splashes, since I found some room for this in the list.

[Alex Holland]

Quiz question: against what deck chalice isnt good?

Answer mud, dragonstompy. Dragon stompy should be easy anyway. Mud is rare to encounter. So play 4. Ur so wrong about it. Add 4 revoker. Good card.

[Barsoom]

I side Chalice of the Void out vs Dragon Stompy, MUD, Merfolk, Stax and Tezzerator.

[astormbrewing]

I side Chalice of the Void out vs Dragon Stompy, MUD, Merfolk, Stax and Tezzerator.

And these decks aren't tremendously popular. A lot of blue based decks will keep land-light hands with Brainstorms to smooth their draws, and a T1 Chalice on 1 can just shut them down completely.

[Alex Holland]

Why side chalice out against merfolk??? Out of my head i have seen these cards in merfolk:

1 mana: cursecatcher, swordstoplowshares, aether vial, spell pierce
2 mana: lord of atlantis, phantasmal image, jitte, standstill, daze, master of the pearl trident, silvergill adept

etc.. so chalice t1 with sol land is a small investment big up against these stinking blue guys!

[CaptainTwiddle]

This list took 7th at SCG Cleveland on 10/06/13 piloted by Stephen Seliskar. There are some things I like about it, but also some questions that I have. I've marked some of the card choices with asterisks and then made my comments below.


CREATURES (22)
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Sundering Titan
4 Wurmcoil Engine*
4 Goblin Welder
SPELLS (18)
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Crucible Of Worlds*
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Mox Diamond*
1 Spine of Ish Sah*
2 Voltaic Key
2 Mox Opal
LAND (20)*
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Bottled Cloister
2 Trinisphere
2 Duplicant
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Steel Hellkite
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Blood Moon
1 Mindslaver


First, I do like the 4 Wurmcoil Engine. A lot of MUD lists have run things like Steel Hellkite or Platinum Emperion in the main alongside 1-3 Wurmcoils. In the end, I think that Wurmcoil is just the card that you'd rather see 90% of the time. I do like Myr Battlesphere against decks with Jace, the Mind Sculptor, but I haven't played with the deck enough to know if it's really essential to have something like that in the maindeck.

Concerning Crucible of Worlds, Mox Diamond, Mox Opal and the land count: I think Crucible in the maindeck is really interesting. I like it more than something like Staff of Domination, as it serves mutliple functions. It gives you the ability to Wasteland lock people, which is a nice upside, but the other thing about it is that this particular build only runs 20 lands, which seems a little low in general and particularly since it's running 2 Mox Diamond, so Crucible allows you to get value from the lands pitched to the Diamond. Mox Opal as more than a singleton and the low land count makes me think that cutting one of each Mox and replacing them with Darksteel Citadel might be a more consistent approach.

The last maindeck card that I question is Spine of Ish Sah. While I love the card for its general fun factor and see that it has applications against Show and Tell decks, I again question if it's worth a maindeck slot. I suppose it's a pretty potent bullet to find with Forgemaster. I think it's just fine as singleton, but it could be Karn Liberated. The thing that I think gives the nod to Spine is the simple fact that it's an artifact, so it has more synergy within the deck.

I don't have too much to say about the sideboard, as that is the area most likely to shift with anticipation of a given metagame, though I think that Faerie Macabre should probably just be Tormod's Crypt, as every non-artifact card you board in potentially weakens Metalworker. I'm also unsure what match up the Mindslaver is for. I could see it being really potent against a storm player, assuming you're actually able to use it in time, but I think I'd be more inclined to run Witchbane Orb instead.

Thoughts? The thing I'm most curious about is the mana base, specifically the low land count and the mix of Moxes.

[Airwave]

Quiz question: against what deck chalice isnt good?

Answer mud, dragonstompy. Dragon stompy should be easy anyway. Mud is rare to encounter. So play 4. Ur so wrong about it. Add 4 revoker. Good card.

In the tournament I played Show & Tell twice, while Chalice has its use against them this only works if you can play it immediately. When they pondered of brainstormed once or twice already its value has worsened. Chalice at three would have been nice but I never came that far.

I also played pox, chalice has almost no use against them.

Stoneblade had some trouble with chalice, which was nice.

I still think Chalice is a very good card, maybe I'll put it back in main, have to do some more testing. But I dislike the fact that it kills sensei, voltaic key, enlightened tutor and welder (sometimes) as card choices, especially as these four all interact very nicely with each other.. in matches where chalice is the absolute winner I can side them in for the 1 cc package.

Revoker is indeed a nice card, but difficult to play as a starting legacy player in main :wink:

[Alex Holland]

In the tournament I played Show & Tell twice, while Chalice has its use against them this only works if you can play it immediately. When they pondered of brainstormed once or twice already its value has worsened. Chalice at three would have been nice but I never came that far.

I also played pox, chalice has almost no use against them.

Stoneblade had some trouble with chalice, which was nice.

I still think Chalice is a very good card, maybe I'll put it back in main, have to do some more testing. But I dislike the fact that it kills sensei, voltaic key, enlightened tutor and welder (sometimes) as card choices, especially as these four all interact very nicely with each other.. in matches where chalice is the absolute winner I can side them in for the 1 cc package.

Revoker is indeed a nice card, but difficult to play as a starting legacy player in main :wink:

Well game 1 youll keep revoker in hand until you know what to name. Often your opponent will drop a deathrite shaman, a mox diamond or aether vial. Thats value.

I think chalice is good against pox. Discard is horrible for us. Duress, toughtseize, iok and also 1cc u sac a critter card.. If they dont have that they are helpless, only liliana can stop us. Wich is taken care of by revoker. GG.

[Juicy Karaage]

Chalice at 0 stops Lion's Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal
Chalice at 1 stops every cantrip in the format(Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain, Gitaxian Probe), every efficient spot removal(Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshare, Path to Exile) aside from Abrupt Decay, every utility 1 drop(Deathrite Shaman, Noble Heirarch, Sensei's Divining Top), most rituals(Dark Rit, Rite of Flame), discard spells(Thoughtseize, Inquisition, Duress, Cabal Therapy)
Chalice at 2 stops Tarmo, Stoneforge, Dark Confidant, Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, Snapcaster
That's practically more or less 80% of the cards played right now

[Barsoom]

@ Alex Holland

It's my opinion that Chalice of the void is one of the worst card we have against Merfolk, stopping Æther Vial is huge yes but pratically your only opportunity to do it it's turn 1 on the play, after they usually already played Vial or they can Daze your Chalice, then later on the game it's useless; Chalice at 2 it stops almost every creature they play yes but again if they have a Vial it's useless, again it usually come too late, and if you set at 2 it stops our Grim Monolith and Lightning Greaves; i found it useful in this matchup mostly against Pithing Needle, but i usually board it out anyway cause not every Merfolk plays it.
I own both MUD and Merfolk so i tested this match many times, that's what i deducted from my testing.

[Airwave]

Well game 1 youll keep revoker in hand until you know what to name. Often your opponent will drop a deathrite shaman, a mox diamond or aether vial. Thats value.

I think chalice is good against pox. Discard is horrible for us. Duress, toughtseize, iok and also 1cc u sac a critter card.. If they dont have that they are helpless, only liliana can stop us. Wich is taken care of by revoker. GG.

Not playing it beforehand might work although you're somewhat behind then maybe?

Against pox: duress and innocent blood weren't in, but cursed scroll was. I actually did play a revoker on liliana (sided it in second game) but it was anything but GG. He played smallpox and the fun was over :frown:

It's absolutely true that chalice blanks a lot, but only if you play it first. Especially against the first drops you really want to win the dice roll to make it work nicely I guess.

Still having trouble with dropping both sensei and enlightened since it will put me back in 'topdeckmode' very often :eyebrow: ... hmm difficult..

[Alex Holland]

I think mud needs to be defensive and not offensive.
4 lodestone 4 chalice 4 revoker. Than build ur mana (metalworker, dynamo) to go off with a bang.

Other (combo) decks are more efficient/faster then mud so recklessly going all in is senseless. TutoRing is nice but a waste of time and rescourses. Welder is ok and can fit a chalice package with caverns. But id rather just concentrate on the opposition . Imo :p

[nedleeds]

@ Alex Holland

It's my opinion that Chalice of the void is one of the worst card we have against Merfolk, stopping Æther Vial is huge yes but pratically your only opportunity to do it it's turn 1 on the play, after they usually already played Vial or they can Daze your Chalice, then later on the game it's useless; Chalice at 2 it stops almost every creature they play yes but again if they have a Vial it's useless, again it usually come too late, and if you set at 2 it stops our Grim Monolith and Lightning Greaves; i found it useful in this matchup mostly against Pithing Needle, but i usually board it out anyway cause not every Merfolk plays it.
I own both MUD and Merfolk so i tested this match many times, that's what i deducted from my testing.

Chalice comes out vs. Merfolk absolutely. 100% on the draw. You want Revoker (if he isn't main), if you run Ratchet Bomb it's very good against fish people because they cluster around 2. Better than hoping for Chalice on 2. Against merfolk you have to consider keeping 3-4 land hands also, you need the mana to push through soft counters and fight their wastelands.

A good merfolk player will likely board out his Cursecatchers and maybe spell pierce if he runs it for bounce and dismembers. Not sure what other hate merfolks decks have these days, I've played Merfolk a dozen or so times with MUD over the past 3-5 years and can't remember losing. Last 2 times I remember distinctly that Cavern was the obvious fisting you'd think it to be in the matchup.

Edit: @Swamp thing

I agree also. Make the environment inhospitable to the other deck. Then lay your threat. Then win quick before the other deck can scramble out of the hole. That's why I think Thran Dynamo and Key are hot fucking garbage. I want more lock pieces than mana rocks, especially non netting ones like Dynamo and cards that don't do anything alone and synergize poorly with Chalice @ 1 (the best defensive card in legacy from a workers perspective).

Get out of here with Enlightened Tutor and Top.

[(nameless one)]

What bothers me is why isn't Winter Orb tested in tandem with Chalice and even with Revokers?

Decks that run on under two lands get stopped by Chalice. Anything that's weak on Chalice gets really disrupted with the Orb. Any midrange deck in between get caught by a Revoker naming Deathrite Shaman.

With the most recent SCG 7th place list, we can get the example that Crucible on the main along with Diamonds work as the manabase. You rarely have your lands for more than two turns because they either destroy themselves or get destroyed with opposing Wastelands.

Why not build a deck that creates a near to complete hard lock then uses Forgemaster to fetch either a Wurmcoil or Blightsteel for the win.

If the mentioned list ran Winter Orb and Tangle Wire, I'm sure he would have beaten Goblins with ease.

[Airwave]

I think mud needs to be defensive and not offensive.
4 lodestone 4 chalice 4 revoker. Than build ur mana (metalworker, dynamo) to go off with a bang.

Other (combo) decks are more efficient/faster then mud so recklessly going all in is senseless. TutoRing is nice but a waste of time and rescourses. Welder is ok and can fit a chalice package with caverns. But id rather just concentrate on the opposition . Imo :p


You might be right, but then the deck might change altogether to the stax variant or something in between I guess. Defensive play will give more time and therefore less screw ups maybe.

[Alex Holland]

Someone tried credit voucher???

Seems sweet late game!

[(nameless one)]

Someone tried credit voucher???

Seems sweet late game!

Credit Voucher doesn't really do anything if you're hellbent.

Conch Horn on the other hand does gains you a card. It also sets up Reforge the Soul if you want a Memory Jar effect.

[Alex Holland]

Nah thats a 2 card investement while muds too crowdee already. I forgot about scroll rack, (2) t (1)exile x cards in hand, draw x put exiled x on library. I have 2 side now, against heavy counter i playvmy scarecrones and otherwise i side in my 2 scrolls. Worked good last night with finding wincons. One game i played 3 karns nuking all his lands :laugh:

[bumgun]

Has anybody been having success with the stompy version lately? I'm thinking about building MUD but not sure which one to go with yet. Quick combo kills are appealing but so is locking the opponent out with Port and Trinisphere in addition to the regular hate.

[Zirath]

Has anybody been having success with the stompy version lately? I'm thinking about building MUD but not sure which one to go with yet. Quick combo kills are appealing but so is locking the opponent out with Port and Trinisphere in addition to the regular hate.

Stompy takes a decent amount of commitment to get into since it doesn't have autowin board positions. I still think ultimately it has stronger match ups overall but that assume good play.

[kingtk3]

Has anybody been having success with the stompy version lately? I'm thinking about building MUD but not sure which one to go with yet. Quick combo kills are appealing but so is locking the opponent out with Port and Trinisphere in addition to the regular hate.

I had some success at different medium events with my stompy build featuring Godo, but then I switched to other decks (Big Red, Goblins and Reanimator) for a change. One of my friend joked that I stopped playing MUD Stompy to let the other players win something :)

I think it's a strong choice right now just only for the fact that it runs threats that many decks right now simply aren't able to handle, while not scooping to combo (which indeed is our best matchup).

[Sunsatzu]

7-2-1 at SCG Seattle (id'ed last round for guaranteed top32, would not have cracked top16 with a win for online glory)

the list

4 Goblin Welder
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Blightsteel Colossus

1 Karn Liberated

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Voltaic Key
2 Trinisphere - this is normally switched with blood moon, but i figured storm would be at the SCG more than BUG/jund.
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Nin - first time trying it and i absolutely LOVED it!
1 Staff of Domination - never combo'ed with it but tapping down Reanimator's lone guy is good.
1 Spine of Ish Sah

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Great Furnace
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Mountain

3 Tormod's Crypt - i agonized over replacing these with faerie macabre before the tourney, still unsure.
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Blood Moon
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Torpor Orb - i HATE elves, also has some use against random etb dudes.
1 Duplicant
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Karn Liberated

i do not play moxes as i dont believe the occasional 3 mana turn1 is sufficient for the crappy late game draws. and when i tested with wasteland way back, i always wanted it around as a land except for twice in around 20 games. i instead play the full set of citadels to make metalworker even more consistent, and the mountains are a nod to the 2 nic fit decks in my personal meta.

the open trial

M1 - Burn - Win

he seems to be new as leads with fetch into blood crypt(!), he manages to burn me down in one game as i combo out the other 2, nice guy all around.

M2 - completely forgot, =/ - Win

M3 - Elves - Win - Daniel Nguyen - Top8 on sunday

ive played him before at a local store a few times, and i know he runs viridian shaman main. this wasnt much of a match though as he mulled many times and he lost more to mana screw/flood than my hate cards.

M4 - PainterStone - unintentional draw

i didnt want to draw since i dont really care for swag, first game consisted of him never finding a grindstone, though he countered alot of my stuff during the 40 min game, and i eventullay find the win. he won game2 very fast and turns were called on his winning turn.

The Open

M1 - Reanimator - Loss 0-2

Crappy mu in the first round, but hey it happens. he states its his first Legacy tourney so i feel confidant about winning. my chalice for 1 meets a cleanup discarded griselbrand, with a turn 3 exhume and me with no answer. at this point im already regretting not running the macabres, but 20/20 you know. g2 he has 2 fow for my threats as he gets in a Sire of Insanity(!) he says he wanted Jin-Gitaxis, but evidently SC didnt have any, so instead of playing the the Cavern in my hand into a Duplicant, i wave farewell as my hand is discarded away, and i die shortly.(dumb scg person didnt stock jin, wtf =p)

M2 - Explorer Pod - Win 2-0

g1 his deck doesnt cooperate at all and its a rout, g2 has him destroying me via decays and deathrites, i draw and play a forgemaster then slam a spine killing a shaman. he plays deed and passes. ive never done this, but seeing as how he had little to no board presence, i sac 3 artifacts and tutor......Darksteel Citadel(i had just drawn the blightsteel, DOH!), and play Karn Liberated, take a card from his hand, play welder to block and pass the turn. i then exile my own blightsteel. with karn at 14 loyalty he scoops.

M3 - Burn - Win 2-1

not much to say, he manages to fireblast me to death only once as the other 2 games he does not start Goblin Guide.

its worth noting i should have tutored out emperion over a wurmcoil g3 since i had greaves. had he drawn a fireblast over the course of 2 turns, id have lost and been a very sad panda.

M4 - Elves - Win 2-1

i get decimated g1 only to draw all the hates in g2 and 3, torpor orb how i love you!

M5 - High Tide - Loss 0-2 - FEATURE MATCH(off-camera), some notable woman who was obv a master of the deck.

as though the mu wasnt bad enough, my deck refused to give me anything as i mulled into oblivion both games. i again regret not going faerie macabre. the speed with which she played the deck was amazing, never stuttering, spluttering, or messing up at all, a true work of art. cunning wish ->rebuild won her both games handily.

M6 - Reanimator - Win 2-0

typical turn 2 griselbrand finds no countermagic as i greaves up a lodestone, then topdeck a wurmcoil engine to start racing, we trade lifelinkers, and then he is forced to exhume an elesh-norn. i had planned to welder in the staff of domination in resp to the exhume in order to tap down elesh but forget. =( luckily, he quickly succumbs to wurmcoil tokens. g2 is more interesting, i keep a hand of citadel/chalice/chalice/tormods/lodestone/forgemaster/metalworker, hoping to draw land. he plays land lotus petal go, i lead with citadel into crypt. now if i had macabre i dont think he Snt's on t2 as he did, he gets griselbrand and i drop forgemaster. t2 i play chalice for 0, and tutor up Duplicant, griselbrand again gives him nothing, but when he discards he accidently sends animate dead to the gy instead of the intended exhume, sealing the game for me.

M7 - American Delver - Win 2-0

i dont remember this all that much, pretty sure i just chalice'ed him out of the match.

M8 - Junk

g1 i get runamok by 2 deathrites, 2 reliquarys and a quirion druid. g2-3 i land chalice, he finds no abrupt decays, i draw revokers+friends and win with the beatdown plan.

M9 - Goblins - ID for guarantee top32 and $100! (4-2 in fun pre-board games)

overall im thinking about cutting domination for either another nin or a 3rd voltaic for more consistant monolith starts, leaning towards voltaic.

thanks for reading, im aware of the horrible grammar/punctuation, but i honestly dont care about that.

[Alex Holland]

congratulations. Everbody loves staff of nin. hmmmm...

isnt that 1 karn a bit random? i play 3 and he hands me the win often in combination with a wasteland or port; then just exiling his (or her) lands :laugh:

[Sunsatzu]

i do play 2 karn, 1 md and 1 sb. i never want it against combo, only the creature oriented decks, so only 1 md.

[astormbrewing]

M5 - High Tide - Loss 0-2 - FEATURE MATCH(off-camera), some notable woman who was obv a master of the deck.

as though the mu wasnt bad enough, my deck refused to give me anything as i mulled into oblivion both games. i again regret not going faerie macabre. the speed with which she played the deck was amazing, never stuttering, spluttering, or messing up at all, a true work of art. cunning wish ->rebuild won her both games handily.

That would be Feline Longmore. She frequents The Source, and has written SEVEN primers for the site. She is insanely good with High Tide.

[Alex Holland]

Grafted skullcap seems okay lategame.. 4 mana is easy and discarding isnt necesserely a bad thing..

[Alex Holland]

What bothers me is why isn't Winter Orb tested in tandem with Chalice and even with Revokers?

Decks that run on under two lands get stopped by Chalice. Anything that's weak on Chalice gets really disrupted with the Orb. Any midrange deck in between get caught by a Revoker naming Deathrite Shaman.

With the most recent SCG 7th place list, we can get the example that Crucible on the main along with Diamonds work as the manabase. You rarely have your lands for more than two turns because they either destroy themselves or get destroyed with opposing Wastelands.

Why not build a deck that creates a near to complete hard lock then uses Forgemaster to fetch either a Wurmcoil or Blightsteel for the win.

If the mentioned list ran Winter Orb and Tangle Wire, I'm sure he would have beaten Goblins with ease.

It has been done. In vintage..

So what would a food mud stax look like?

4 chalice
4 revoker.. both no brainers i think..

4 winter orb
4 tangle wire.. obvious synergy with winter orb
4 smokestack.. our cheap sticky board wipe

8 sol land.. of course
4 wasteland.. of course
4 manland.. mutavault or mishras factory
4 rishadan port.. maybe? Good with orb of course

After here it becomes harder; white or red way? Sroneforge and qhite stax cards? Supression field, flagstones thalia! etc or good old goblin welder like in vintage. I think im going to play around with the idea. Have most of the cards anyway :)

[Bionitech]

I don't know if anyone else mentioned it, but has anyone considered Tezzeret, The Seeker (http://magiccards.info/query?q=tezzeret&v=card&s=cname)? I know he's mana intensive but if you're running 2 mox diamonds, 2 mox opals, a few islands and Seat of the Synod then I don't see how casting him would be a problem. He untaps your creatures and monoliths and also searches for your much needed creatures to win ( Copper Gnomes (http://magiccards.info/query?q=copper+gnomes&v=card&s=cname) / Metalworker (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Metalworker&v=card&s=cname) etc) And of course if he goes unanswered, though unlikely but some planeswalkers can stay in play for quite a while before being bolted of knocked out.

He'd be more of a 2 of. I run a list that has a lot of fatsos and copper gnomes/metalworkers. I feel like Tezzeret might be just the thing the list could use and it's not difficult to achieve. You don't completely crumble if metalworker gets killed off since you can play tezz and fetch one up and so on.

I've seen vintage Tezzerator and although it would need serious testing, I feel like he definitely has a home in MUD. And even more so if you can pop his ult and turn all your lock pieces into finishers.

[Alex Holland]

I don't know if anyone else mentioned it, but has anyone considered Tezzeret, The Seeker (http://magiccards.info/query?q=tezzeret&v=card&s=cname)? I know he's mana intensive but if you're running 2 mox diamonds, 2 mox opals, a few islands and Seat of the Synod then I don't see how casting him would be a problem. He untaps your creatures and monoliths and also searches for your much needed creatures to win ( Copper Gnomes (http://magiccards.info/query?q=copper+gnomes&v=card&s=cname) / Metalworker (http://magiccards.info/query?q=Metalworker&v=card&s=cname) etc) And of course if he goes unanswered, though unlikely but some planeswalkers can stay in play for quite a while before being bolted of knocked out.

He'd be more of a 2 of. I run a list that has a lot of fatsos and copper gnomes/metalworkers. I feel like Tezzeret might be just the thing the list could use and it's not difficult to achieve. You don't completely crumble if metalworker gets killed off since you can play tezz and fetch one up and so on.

I've seen vintage Tezzerator and although it would need serious testing, I feel like he definitely has a home in MUD. And even more so if you can pop his ult and turn all your lock pieces into finishers.

Well the problem with tezz is that he cost 5 mana and does nothing to change a board position FOR the opponent. for 5 mana forgemaster can be cast, wich will win you the game (hopefully). SO i guess its too slow. Plus UU is hard, or u should make a new more blueish mud. Wich has been tried before without succes.
Stompy MUD wouldnt wanna touch tezz ever at all. Stompy rather drop a thread or lock piece at 5 mana.

[bruizar]

Well the problem with tezz is that he cost 5 mana and does nothing to change a board position FOR the opponent. for 5 mana forgemaster can be cast, wich will win you the game (hopefully). SO i guess its too slow. Plus UU is hard, or u should make a new more blueish mud. Wich has been tried before without succes.
Stompy MUD wouldnt wanna touch tezz ever at all. Stompy rather drop a thread or lock piece at 5 mana.

Oh I've tried. Tried with Eye of Ramos and with Saprazzan Skerry, tried with mox opals, mox diamonds and chrome moxen.

Tezzeret is a huge card when you can play him, especially if you run Ensnaring Bridge to protect him. The biggest problem was Spell Pierce though. Tapping out 5 mana and getting pierced against RUG just blows. At least a 5 mana creature doesn't get pierced. Still though, I am not abolishing Tezzeret completely, because, as mentioned, the card is very potent. If you are going for the Tezzeret route in legacy, Agent of Bolas is a smarter choice imo. We don't have Time Vault unfortunately and the abilities of Agent of Bolas are a little bit more relevant than Seeker's. A blue stompy version could work though. I really like Esperzoa and Phyrexian Metamorph. The new Merfolk would be good in a deck like this.

[Bionitech]

I mean, you are playing something before landing a tezzeret, right? Like Chalice on 1? Because the last thing you need is someone cantripping into a FoW or Spellpierce?

RUG Delver is an unfavorable matchup to begin with so it's not really discouraging the use of Tezzeret. And the Agent of Bolas is even less possible to play because it requires UB, and you really don't want to spend your first turn playing a Dimir Signet or a talisman, at that point you're playing a different deck.

I chose Seeker now because my local meta is very midrange and control heavy, so having a planeswalker like Tezz feels like a decent fit. There aren't many creatures and if he lands then you are in an infinitely better position since he's not even a creature or an artifact, so a lot of removal goes out the window. If he gets countered then it means your forgemaster would've been countered too.

I'll test it and see if he fits. He is currently a 2 of in my deck and I have 2 opals, 2 diamonds, an Island and 4 seats. So I have a way to get him out there if I draw into him.

[kingtk3]

...
RUG Delver is an unfavorable matchup to begin with ...

I think it depends on the version you are playing. I play MUD stompy and have yet to lose a match to RUG: chalice, trini, golem, acceleration and cavern are too much for them to handle

[Alex Holland]

I think it depends on the version you are playing. I play MUD stompy and have yet to lose a match to RUG: chalice, trini, golem, acceleration and cavern are too much for them to handle

This.

And Karn is the only walker stompy needs, its a hero.

I noticed one thing tough during a lot of matches: people never counter thran dynamo.. wich is weird bcus if u have one out its just gg... maybe they save counters for metalworker? Bcus people are like: omg metalworker!?!!

[th3 w1z4rd]

This.

And Karn is the only walker stompy needs, its a hero.

I noticed one thing tough during a lot of matches: people never counter thran dynamo.. wich is weird bcus if u have one out its just gg... maybe they save counters for metalworker? Bcus people are like: omg metalworker!?!!

Wrong. The people at my store counter Dynamo whenever possible. They have bolt, swords, decay, and everything else for Metalworker... I'm going to sell this deck and get Affinity because my girlfriend wants to play artifacts and this deck is far too inconsistent. All mana and no threats or the reverse, every time.

[Alex Holland]

Wrong. The people at my store counter Dynamo whenever possible. They have bolt, swords, decay, and everything else for Metalworker... I'm going to sell this deck and get Affinity because my girlfriend wants to play artifacts and this deck is far too inconsistent. All mana and no threats or the reverse, every time.

Well maybe your list isnt that good... i mean this in the nicest possible way lol

I get good hands everytime, stompy only gives me different games. Sometimes it takes me a stax route, sometimes it take me the aggro route. Eitherway i am never completetely helpless. Its not me its you..

[kingtk3]

Well maybe your list isnt that good... i mean this in the nicest possible way lol

I get good hands everytime, stompy only gives me different games. Sometimes it takes me a stax route, sometimes it take me the aggro route. Eitherway i am never completetely helpless. Its not me its you..

I feel basically the same. The consistency issues are what had me move from the combo version to the stompy one, and I've never looked back.

[Barsoom]

Alex Holland and kingtk3, can you share your lists that i want to test the Stompy version too; i started to play MUD in march with the Kuldotha version, then some weeks ago i tested the Welder version, now i'm back with a colorless Kuldotha version that's giving me good games, at least on cockatrice; it works, i rarely mulligan, and i'm overall happy with my choices and the side; i'll test it in a real tournament in 2 weeks; i'll share it below if someone wants to test it/share some thoughts.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Buried Ruin

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
3 Voltaic Key
3 Lightning Greaves
2 Thran Dynamo
1 Staff of Nin
1 Bottled Cloister

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Platinum Emperion
-----------------
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Trinisphere
3 Defense Grid
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Bottled Cloister
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Nin

I have no cards against graveyard cause graveyard's strategies are not really prevalent here, i would play Faerie Macabre if i were to.

[lithiux]

M5 - High Tide - Loss 0-2 - FEATURE MATCH(off-camera), some notable woman who was obv a master of the deck.

as though the mu wasnt bad enough, my deck refused to give me anything as i mulled into oblivion both games. i again regret not going faerie macabre. the speed with which she played the deck was amazing, never stuttering, spluttering, or messing up at all, a true work of art. cunning wish ->rebuild won her both games handily.


Feline isn't so much a Magic player as she is a Combo robot sent from the future to show people the error in having things like Deathrite Shamans and Mother of Runes in their decks. When she won SCG Seattle last year, there was a moment in her Finals match where she resolved a Ponder with one hand, including changing the order or the cards she put back. She's great.

However, Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere seem pretty bad for High Tide. I know it can eventually make lots of mana but 3-ball seems like it makes getting started quite difficult, and they don't really run artifact disruption. Wish+Bounce+then going off seems like a tall order when they know you can kill them out of nowhere.

[Alex Holland]

Alex Holland and kingtk3, can you share your lists that i want to test the Stompy version too; i started to play MUD in march with the Kuldotha version, then some weeks ago i tested the Welder version, now i'm back with a colorless Kuldotha version that's giving me good games, at least on cockatrice; it works, i rarely mulligan, and i'm overall happy with my choices and the side; i'll test it in a real tournament in 2 weeks; i'll share it below if someone wants to test it/share some thoughts.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Buried Ruin

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
3 Voltaic Key
3 Lightning Greaves
2 Thran Dynamo
1 Staff of Nin
1 Bottled Cloister

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Platinum Emperion
-----------------
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Trinisphere
3 Defense Grid
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Bottled Cloister
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Nin

I have no cards against graveyard cause graveyard's strategies are not really prevalent here, i would play Faerie Macabre if i were to.

This what i run:

4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 cavern of souls
4 wasteland
2 rishadan port
4 mishras factory

4 lodestone golem
4 phyrexian revoker
4 wurmcoil engine
4 batterskull
4 metalworker

2 all is dust
3 karn liberated

3 thran dynamo
4 grim monolith
4 chalice of the void
2 ratchet bomb

Cheers!

[kingtk3]

Alex Holland and kingtk3, can you share your lists that i want to test the Stompy version too; i started to play MUD in march with the Kuldotha version, then some weeks ago i tested the Welder version, now i'm back with a colorless Kuldotha version that's giving me good games, at least on cockatrice; it works, i rarely mulligan, and i'm overall happy with my choices and the side; i'll test it in a real tournament in 2 weeks; i'll share it below if someone wants to test it/share some thoughts.


Here's my latest list (though it's been sometime and I may change something)

Locks
3 trinisphere
4 chalice of the void
3 phyrexian revoker
4 lodestone golem

Beaters
3 wurmcoil engine
2 steel hellkite
2 godo, bandit warlord
2 batterskull

Utilities
3 phyrexian metamorph
1 sword of fire and ice

Mana
3 metalworker
4 grim monolith
3 thran dynamo

Lands
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
3 mountain
4 cavern of soul

SIDE
1 phyrexian revoker
2 Karn liberated
3 spine of ish sah
3 tormod's crypt
3 ratchet bomb
1 trinisphere
2 flex slot


My favorite target for phyrexian metamorph is lodestone: it almost always wins you the game landing a turn 2 golem and cloning it the turn after.

Swap the crypts for faerie macabre if your meta is full of reanimators.

[Admiral_Arzar]

I haven't played this deck in a while, but my last stompy list looked something like this. I will probably play it again soon depending on my meta, I always liked the deck.

4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Voltaic Key
4 Grim Monolith
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Batterskull
2 Karn Liberated

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Buried Ruin

Sideboard
3 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 All is Dust
2 Trinisphere

[Snapback]

Has anyone tried the 12-Post manabase in MUD? I switched over to that, and have generally been enjoying it. My meta is filled with Elves, URx Delver, Jace decks, and Goblins. However, I'm going to GP DC in a few weeks, and want to tune this list for a more general meta(unless I just play Merfolk). Is Duplicant the best card vs Sneak & Show? Any general suggestions from someone who's tried a similar manabase?

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Cavern of Souls

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Steel Hellkite
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan
1 Karn, Liberated

4 Grim Monolith
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Nin
1 Staff of Domination
1 Mox Diamond

Sideboard
2 All is Dust
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Karn, Liberated
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Crucible of Worlds

[Esper3k]

Spine is a more versatile card against them since it can hit Sneak Attack but Duplicant is more of a blowout if it works.

[astormbrewing]

@Snapback

Here is a list that got top 8 in a SCG IQ. It played 12-post lands.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=59228

This is the list I'm looking at playing in DC.

/Creatures
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Duplicant
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
4 Wurmcoil Engine

/Spells
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
1 Karn Liberated
3 Lightning Greaves
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Domination
1 Trading Post
2 Trinisphere
2 Voltaic Key

/Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Wasteland

/Sideboard
1 All is Dust
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Silent Arbiter
2 Spellskite
1 Sundering Titan
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere
1 Witchbane Orb

[Alex Holland]

Nobody likes all is dust main deck? Against Everything that plays permanents its awesome. Sometimes i like it more then karn or spine as removal. It wipes their board and doesnt target. I am never not happy to draw it, plus when i dont have 7 mana turn 3-4 (when its most useful to drop one) im dead anyway.

[astormbrewing]

Nobody likes all is dust main deck? Against Everything that plays permanents its awesome. Sometimes i like it more then karn or spine as removal. It wipes their board and doesnt target. I am never not happy to draw it, plus when i dont have 7 mana turn 3-4 (when its most useful to drop one) im dead anyway.

If I could play All is Dust off Show and Tell, and All is Dust killed Emrakul, then I'd be a bit more inclined to play it. I'm anticipating a decent amount of Sneak and Show and Omni-Tell decks in DC.

[Alex Holland]

If I could play All is Dust off Show and Tell, and All is Dust killed Emrakul, then I'd be a bit more inclined to play it. I'm anticipating a decent amount of Sneak and Show and Omni-Tell decks in DC.

So rishadan ports instead of citadel to keep them away from u?
Away from u lol pun intended..

[Snapback]

@Snapback

Here is a list that got top 8 in a SCG IQ. It played 12-post lands.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=59228



Haha, that's me. Lost to the RUG Delver player in the top 8. Very close match - my opponent had 2 Price of Progress in the sideboard, and found it games 2 and 3 to put me away each time. 12 Post is definitely vulnerable to the spell. It was a small event - maybe 25 people. My one loss in the swiss was to a Belcher player. I misplayed and put Chalice on 1 T1, instead of zero. I hadn't analyzed Belcher before, and just assumed that you cast chalice for 1 if you could.

Your list and mine are very similar - mainly just the lands and voltaic key in the main deck. I've seen some players run a Bottled Cloister, and while I haven't tested it, that seems stronger than Witchbane Orb against discard; however, Orb would probably be more versatile.

I may start running Spine main deck again, to deal with Show and Tell.

[FlyingSkull13]

So last night Ice Imports in CT had a duel for Duals for TCG, it was a 6 round tourney i piloted this


4 Goblin Welder
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Blightsteel Colossus

1 Karn Liberated

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Voltaic Key
2 Trinisphere - this is normally switched with blood moon, but i figured storm would be at the SCG more than BUG/jund.
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Nin - first time trying it and i absolutely LOVED it!
1 Staff of Domination - never combo'ed with it but tapping down Reanimator's lone guy is good.
1 Spine of Ish Sah

4 Cavern of Souls
4 Great Furnace
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Mountain

SB
2 torpor orb
2 trinisphere
3 ensnaring bridge
1 platinum emperion
3 tomod's crypt
2 rachet bomb
1 duplicant
1 spine of ish sah

this was solid all evening, the sideboard is for some of the combo matchups, i expected sneak and show and others. I was very surprised at what i played against.

thanks to Sunsatzu for posting, the sideboard was adapted for what i expected
37 players!!!

R1 EUREKA!!!!
so game 1 he starts game revealing daze guy, so it delays my chalice till turn 2, i play a turn two lodestone golem, he plays a show and tell and i play a wurm coil engine that goes the distance.

game 2 he again plays show and tell i get metal worker + lodestone golem online, he forgets an attack step giving me extra turn, i draw forgemaster, equip greaves, get blight and mike tyson him out of the game.

R2 Jund
G1-I thought i had the game, then he blood braid's into lilli, and he resets my board, Karn makes an appearance and wurm coil engine and tokens puts him away

G2-he kills my early excell, and maelstrom pulses my golem and kills me

G3-double lodestone golem is the bee's knee vs fair decks

R3 12 POST
G1-chalice on one plus lodestone gets there, i gave him an extra turn by not comboing out with metal worker and forgemaster

G2-I dont get my excell in time, he counters chalice, and he gets big fatty and kills me

G3- ancient tomb does allot of dmg to me, then he BONFIRES me out of the game

R4-affinity
G1-i have metal worker in play, collosus in hand, he's ahead of me on clock by one turn, then i draw Staff and auto win

G2-Opening hand has metal worker and staff in it, he does not have removal spell

R5-ENCHANTRESS
G1-i somehow nearly punt 3 times while having the metal worker and staff combo in play, i squeeze the game out of my punts.

G2-He plays humility, i play staff and metal worker, he doesnt play 2nd humility, i draw 3rd sol land and kill him with spine.

R6-ID-storm?

QUARTERS-JUND
G1-lodestone golem x2 is just not fair

G2-I go all in on blightsteel, he has 3 turns to get another lilli and does not get there

SEMI-REMATCH WITH 12 POST
g1 he's on the play, i get chalice on 1 to stick and i beat him to death, i miss comboing him out 1 turn earlier

g2 he bonefires me out from 16

g3 he waits out my forgemaster, bonefires me, then plays emerkual, torpor orb does nothing against emerkual

Props-
RockLee, excellent matches, i learn more from those matches than any other
metalworker + staff, i do not know why i cut staff, but it is not leaving anymore
my opponents were all pleasant
staff of nin pulled its weight in slower matchups

Slops-
tourney started at 6 pm, did not get home till 3:40 in the morning, but was done as efficently as possible.

[Muddle_Worker]

Wondering what people sideboard in for their delver matchups.
I run 4 ratchet bomb and 3 defense grid. Trying to get a feel for what others are using.
I run forgemaster build myself. I've also tried 12 post lands and don't care for them
Nearly as much as I do my artifact lands.i do however think in a non-forgemaster build the land base is more feasible. Just my 2 cents

[Bionitech]

Is it me or has Lodestone Golem been underperforming? I Understand he's a key part of the deck, but when a metagame is flooded with midarange decks that can easily deal with it, I find it completely useless as it nearly dies to almost everything. RUG doesn't care about it, Deathblade decks don't care about it, really only decks that sort of care are storm decks. And in a meta like LA, midrange decks are everywhere, and the show and tell decks are the ones that seem to be keeping them at bay and storm I see maybe one person out of 40 operating it.

It's a 5/3 for 4 and come out turn two, possibly turn one. Ok, what else can come out at the same speed? Copper Gnomes. More fragile but would you rather have a blightsteel or a silly golem that is basically a wall? I would be happier to have more aggressive hands than a midrange card that gets outclassed a turn later.

I understand some of you have had exceptional games where lodestone golem LITERALLY stole a game. But think about this: How often does this happen and why? If it's not a card that can consistently accelerate the game and beat the opponent down then it's not a card worth including anymore. The :1: extra doesn't hurt anyone playing Deathrite Shaman. And most decks play it. At best he can hit once and then die, when a copper gnomes for the same mana can put into play a wurmcoil engine, which does a heck of a lot more.

I for one have taken him out and put the gnomes in and a full set of wurmcoils. So far it has worked for me.

[kingtk3]

About Lodestone Golem:
I think it depends if you are playing the stompy or the combo version, here's an old post with the analisys for the combo version:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23388-Deck-MUD-(Metalworker)&p=687380&viewfull=1#post687380

Basically I don't think it's strictly necessary in forgemaster builds but still it's playable.

For the stompy builds, however, it's the backbone of the deck.
RUG is a tempo deck that plays only 18 (at most 19) lands and wins with cheap and free spells (the only CMC2 is tarmogoyf): you land a golem and their strategy is ruined.

Deathblade plays only vendilion and batterskull as 3 power creature otherwise they have to block with 2 creatures to kill the golem, which would still be a faster clock than thos creatures. And if the have to use DRS to pay the tax that means that they cannot use it to ramp in something bigger or to play another spell, which is basically what MUD wants.

Golem makes bloodbraid elf nearly unplayable (it will costs a total of 6 mana), prevents omnihall from winning on the spot and I could name more of specific situations, but the important thing it's that it messes with the opponent deck building: when you build a deck you choose how much lands to play basing on your casting costs, but if they're incremented even by one your deck will not functions optimally (ie you will not be able to play a spell or play 2 on the same turn when needed, especially good for counter decks).

Golem is also disruption AND threat at the same time, the best "hate bear" if you look at from this prospective, and can win you games alone.

And remember that golem is often supported by wasteland and rishadan port (other great cards that double as mana and "resistors")...

[Alex Holland]

About Lodestone Golem:
I think it depends if you are playing the stompy or the combo version, here's an old post with the analisys for the combo version:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23388-Deck-MUD-(Metalworker)&p=687380&viewfull=1#post687380

Basically I don't think it's strictly necessary in forgemaster builds but still it's playable.

For the stompy builds, however, it's the backbone of the deck.
RUG is a tempo deck that plays only 18 (at most 19) lands and wins with cheap and free spells (the only CMC2 is tarmogoyf): you land a golem and their strategy is ruined.

Deathblade plays only vendilion and batterskull as 3 power creature otherwise they have to block with 2 creatures to kill the golem, which would still be a faster clock than thos creatures. And if the have to use DRS to pay the tax that means that they cannot use it to ramp in something bigger or to play another spell, which is basically what MUD wants.

Golem makes bloodbraid elf nearly unplayable (it will costs a total of 6 mana), prevents omnihall from winning on the spot and I could name more of specific situations, but the important thing it's that it messes with the opponent deck building: when you build a deck you choose how much lands to play basing on your casting costs, but if they're incremented even by one your deck will not functions optimally (ie you will not be able to play a spell or play 2 on the same turn when needed, especially good for counter decks).

Golem is also disruption AND threat at the same time, the best "hate bear" if you look at from this prospective, and can win you games alone.

And remember that golem is often supported by wasteland and rishadan port (other great cards that double as mana and "resistors")...

Plus often you will accidentely play a second golem wich will make them scoop.
Only downside is that it makes karn and all is dust more expensive. I had lodestones commit suicide just so i could drop karn liberated :)

Stoneblade actually is easy for stompy. All they have is swords to plowshares wich is killed by chalice swiftely. Yesterday i faced a t3 batterskull. I just placed down 2 myself true worker followed by a wurm. Scoop!

I think i got delver positive now too, 2-3 ratchet bomb maindeck is wort it in 2013> delver, tarmogoyf, kor, lavamancer, shaman. A early bomb is almost as good as a t1 chalice!

[Bionitech]

I guess since going for a more combo route I've started seeing more and more cards leaving the deck because of a completely different game plan. In my meta the combo version works wonders because fewer people are prepared for it and has multiple threats that can be cheated out quickly so I'm not as afraid of FoW as I used to.

My list (to be tested)

Land
4 Wasteland
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Seat of the Synod

Creatures
4 Metalworker
3 Copper Gnomes
3 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Steel Hellkite
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster

Artifacts
4 Grim Monolith
2 Mox Opal
2 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinishphere
2 Voltaic Key
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Crucible of Worlds

Planeswalker
2 Tezzeret, the Seeker


I might be switching back between stompy and combo depending on what kind of plays I see most. I might include lodestone again if I go stompy and the like

[Rock Lee]

R3 12 POST
G1-chalice on one plus lodestone gets there, i gave him an extra turn by not comboing out with metal worker and forgemaster

G2-I dont get my excell in time, he counters chalice, and he gets big fatty and kills me

G3- ancient tomb does allot of dmg to me, then he BONFIRES me out of the game

--------------

SEMI-REMATCH WITH 12 POST
g1 he's on the play, i get chalice on 1 to stick and i beat him to death, i miss comboing him out 1 turn earlier

g2 he bonefires me out from 16

g3 he waits out my forgemaster, bonefires me, then plays emerkual, torpor orb does nothing against emerkual

Props-
RockLee, excellent matches, i learn more from those matches than any other
metalworker + staff, i do not know why i cut staff, but it is not leaving anymore
my opponents were all pleasant
staff of nin pulled its weight in slower matchups

Slops-
tourney started at 6 pm, did not get home till 3:40 in the morning, but was done as efficently as possible.

Stop playing MUD!

[FlyingSkull13]

Stop playing MUD!

LoL

[Alex Holland]

Stop playing MUD!

As long as it beats delver decks ill keep playing..

This morning went 2-0 against ru delver and neither games i had chalice out :)

[Barsoom]

A really interesting list top4 at the Eternal Weekend, here the link --> http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/eternal13/legacy#6a

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Wasteland

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
2 Spellskite
1 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Domination
1 Staff of Nin
4 Trinisphere
-----------------
2 All Is Dust
1 Batterskull
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
2 Witchbane Orb
1 Wurmcoil Engine

Interesting things to note, imho
- the use of 12 post manabase (i think this is the best result in a big tournament for a 12Post MUD)
- 2 Spellskite main
- the full 4x of Trinisphere main; in my testing i never liked to have this card main, and i use it as a 3x in the side against combo, but it seems it worked good here
- 4x Spine of Ish Sah between main and side, i guess that the more consistent mana base really helps hardcasting this one without Metalworker as soon as turn 3, practically like a Vindicate in normal decks

In the interview above the decklists the player (Greg Price) said that he is working on the deck from 2 years; would be really interesting to hear his thoughts about his choices, and maybe a report too.

[astormbrewing]

A really interesting list top4 at the Eternal Weekend, here the link --> http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/eternal13/legacy#6a

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Wasteland

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
2 Spellskite
1 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Domination
1 Staff of Nin
4 Trinisphere
-----------------
2 All Is Dust
1 Batterskull
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
2 Witchbane Orb
1 Wurmcoil Engine

Interesting things to note, imho
- the use of 12 post manabase (i think this is the best result in a big tournament for a 12Post MUD)
- 2 Spellskite main
- the full 4x of Trinisphere main; in my testing i never liked to have this card main, and i use it as a 3x in the side against combo, but it seems it worked good here
- 4x Spine of Ish Sah between main and side, i guess that the more consistent mana base really helps hardcasting this one without Metalworker as soon as turn 3, practically like a Vindicate in normal decks

In the interview above the decklists the player (Greg Price) said that he is working on the deck from 2 years; would be really interesting to hear his thoughts about his choices, and maybe a report too.

This is probably enough to make me try the 12 post mana. I love Trinisphere and I'm running 3/1. Spine of Ish Sah is really good, especially with Show and Tell decks being popular. I'm playing around with a similar list now.

[aluisiocsantos]

This list looks pretty impressive!

[astormbrewing]

Here is where I am right now.


4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Wasteland

1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Duplicant
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Sundering Titan
4 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
1 Karn Liberated
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Domination
3 Trinisphere
---
2 All is Dust
1 Bottled Cloister
1 Duplicant
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Silent Arbiter
2 Spellskite
2 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Trinisphere

[SirTylerGalt]

Wouldn't the 12-post manabase be better in a MUD Stompy shell? Kuldotha Forgemaster is better when you have artifact lands to sacrifice, and the 12-post manabase precludes us from playing artifact lands.

[Snapback]

Wouldn't the 12-post manabase be better in a MUD Stompy shell? Kuldotha Forgemaster is better when you have artifact lands to sacrifice, and the 12-post manabase precludes us from playing artifact lands.

Yes, Forgemaster is occasionally awkward, but the tutoring ability makes it still worth running 2 or 3. There's definitely an argument to just cut the card altogether.

I usually don't have a problem getting 2 other artifacts to sac. The problem is more often that you have to sacrifice an artifact you'd rather not, like a chalice or trinisphere, but that comes down to understanding the game situation. Either the lock pieces in play are enough, or you're going to lose unless you sac them to tutor something else.

[Rock Lee]

Yesss... You should all run 12post manabase.. Accelerate me! Do my bidding!

[(nameless one)]

I have been testing a 12-post list and it looks promising.

It doesn't solve the terrible topdecks but I think I fixed that.

Also, I went back to Mox Diamond with the 12-post list. I will explain once I've streamlined my list. Might also need help with the sideboard.

[th3 w1z4rd]

12 post manabase in MUD... yes, just scoop to a deck that is a bye for MUD, and also scoop to Wasteland.

Warned for flaming, flames removed. This is your second warning. A third warning will result in a permanent site ban. Feel free to be as sarcastic as you want, but insulting other members is a no go. Thanks in advance for your understanding and cooperation. -zilla

[astormbrewing]

12 post manabase in MUD... yes, just scoop to a deck that is a bye for MUD, and also scoop to Wasteland. Retards.

Clearly the deck is awful, that's why it can place top 4 in Legacy Champs.

Wasteland hurts MUD regardless when they can kill your Tomb or City. With 12 post included, you get more stability later in the game by being able to produce lots of mana after they've wasted a Tomb or City or two.

[(nameless one)]

According to my testing of the 12post + Sol Land build:

- Sol land is there to enable the early game. When you can't stick a City of Traitors or can't activate Ancient Tomb because you're at 5 and things can go wrong, you depend on 12post.

- the reason why I wanted Mox Diamond is because you won't always have a Sol land to enable a turn one sphere effect.

- with 12post, you can play the deck ala vintage: stick a lot of resistors and still resolve your 6 mana threat even if they cost 10.

- with 12post, you negate the life loss from Tomb (see Glimmervoid)

Personally, I am gearing towards running 4 Chalice, 4 Trinisphere, 4 Lodestone Golem, 3-4 Sphere of Resistance/Thorn of Amethyst, 2-3 Tangle Wire and 3-4 Revokers. Then for threats, run Steel Hellkite instead of Wurmcoil since he can sweep whatever goes through the lock. Forgemaster to grab the Hellkite or Colossus.

Making things cost a lot not only protects you from free permission, it also protects you from Abrupt Decay.

Removing Greaves on the main ensures no late game dead draws. Drawing more sphere effects further stops your opponent from doing anything. Added sphere effects means you get to Time Walk your opponent, which is generally a haste in this scenario. Also with a ton of sphere effects, your opponent's removal will less likely to be casted.

I think 12post isn't a bad idea. How is it retarded? You know what's retarded, resolving a Trinisphere with a City of Traitors and Grim Monolith on the field on turn one, and looking at that Wasteland in your hand hoping that you can topdeck a Metalworker.

[Mockingbird]

I have been testing a 12-post list and it looks promising.

It doesn't solve the terrible topdecks but I think I fixed that.

Also, I went back to Mox Diamond with the 12-post list. I will explain once I've streamlined my list. Might also need help with the sideboard.

One card that I've tested in MUD for the Topdecking problem is Ancient Stirrings, and I have a friend that runs Faithless Looting in conjunction with Goblin Welder and Great Furnace to consistently get and use red. I go back and forth on it and am not playing it currently because Tree of Tales or Grove of the Burnwillows kind of underwhelm the mana base as opposed to Modern Tron (where I got the idea), but I've always found there to be potential for Ancient Stirrings.

[Teluin]

Hey guys,

I was wondering if anyone has had any experience with Tabernacle in the deck and how has it performed for them. I imagine that with all of MUD's mana ramp and with the strategy of making their spells cost more/Wastelanding their mana sources, that it could be quite effective.

[Alex Holland]

12 post manabase in MUD... yes, just scoop to a deck that is a bye for MUD, and also scoop to Wasteland.

Warned for flaming, flames removed. This is your second warning. A third warning will result in a permanent site ban. Feel free to be as sarcastic as you want, but insulting other members is a no go. Thanks in advance for your understanding and cooperation. -zilla

He is right tough. Cloudpost is horrible. U know why it works in cloudpost.dec? Because that is build for it. This isnt. You cant just get it in here because we have a high mana curve and are colorless. I have tried and it felt sub par.
And of course it is sub par. Whats the best land in legacy? Wasteland. What would make wastelandvkick even more ass? A colorless deck. Wich is mud.

Im convinced of the quasi staxx build for mud. 4 revokers 4 golem 4 chalice. Wasteland complements this. As does rishadan port. U want mana? Well were the mana deck already. Sol lands, metalworker, monolith, dynamo.. we have enough mana. No need to run subpar lands with more focus on mana.

Every forgemaster build can make a good showing. Thats what forgemaster builds then to do. If u have a good evening u can make amazing plays. But when your more experienced in mud u choose stability. This means no forgemaster and no useless inclusions.

Tabernacle is HORRIBLE. Against wich deck would it help? Maybe elves. OtherwIse it will just hurt me, since i play a curve of about 2, 4, 5, 6, 7. Wich means i dont want to miss drops because i plan to drop something aggressive every following turn.

[(nameless one)]

I played at the local store to a 3-1 finish with 12post MUD just to try it.

It's was a four round X-0 gets a commander 2013 for $5.

I will post more details when I get a proper computer to elaborate on it. (I'm posting this via a smartphone).

[astormbrewing]

So, I've decided against 12post lands for GP DC. I will post my list Sunday with results. Depending on how I do, I'll write a review.

[(nameless one)]

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Rishadan port
3 Vesuva
4 Wasteland

1 Blightsteel Colossus
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Metalworker
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Steel Hellkite

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
1 Spine of Ish Sah
4 Tangle Wire
2 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Trinisphere

Sideboard:
2 Witchbane Orb
3 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Spellskite
2 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spine of Ish Sah

Round 1 vs ANT

Match 1: He wins the dice roll, His turn one was a Fetch, Underground Sea. Then Probe and Duress to take my Chalice. Since I have no turn one play, I go with turn one Cloudpost. He won next turn.

I sided in Witchbane Orb and additional Thorn of Amethyst for Metalworkers and some Tangle Wire.

Match 2: I didn't really get sphere effect outside of Lodestone Golem but I managed to stick it on turn one (sol land to double Monolith to Lodestone Golem). I think I also got lucky because he mulled to five. My turn two was my topdecked Chalice at 0 and a tapped Cloudpost and my turn three was Glimmerpost to a Forgemaster for a Blightsteel Colossus.

Match 3: He just Pondered on turn one. I casted a Chalice for 1. Then my turn two was a Thorn and a tapped Cloudpost. Then turn three Vesuva to Trinisphere then a turn four Golem.

Round 2 vs Food Chain Griffin

Match 1: I win the roll. I go turn one with a tapped Cloudpost. He goes for a turn one Ponder. I go for a turn two 3sphere (Glimmerpost) and turn three Tangle Wire. Then a couple turns later, I go for the Forgemaster to Blightsteel Win.

I thought he was playing Canadian Thresh because I only saw two fetches, a Tropical Island and a Ponder. I sided out Revoker for Ratchet Bomb and Metalworker for Thorns. I can't remember if I sided in Wurmcoils and Spellskite.

Match 2: He goes turn one DRS. I go for Chalice at one. He goes and casts Food Chain. I casted Thorn and a Cloudpost. He combos off next turn.

I recall switching something but I can't remember which one. I think it was additional Spine and returned my Metalworker back.

Match 3: I go for a turn one Thorn. He doesn't do anything. We both derp for a bit but I am slowly spamming the board with Tangle Wire and Resistors though with no threats. He managed to Natural Order for Progenitus. On my turn I topdecked a Steel Hellkite and next turn nuked his Progenitus. I manage to survive a Progenitus hit because of the life I gained from Glimmerposts and managed to nuke his Probro via Hellkite because of Cloudpost.

Round 3 vs Team Italia:

Match one: I lost the die roll. He doesn't do anything for a couple of turns because of Trinisphere. Forgemaster to Blightsteel got there.

At first I thought he was playing Death and Taxes because all I saw were Karakas, Fetchlands, basic Plains and discarded Thalia.

I boarded in Ratchet Bombs and Spellskite for Thorns, Metalworkers and I think Metamorph.

Match 2: he goes for a turn one Thoughtsieze. He discarded my chalice. I manage to slow him down by a turn 2 3sphere and a waste on his Scrubland. I resolved a Ratchet Bomb and kept it at one. I also got Chalice at one going. He managed to resolve a Liliana which quickly got stopped by Revoker. Then Ratchet Bomb got rid of her to be sure. I then had enough mana to hardcast Blightsteel. He showed me his hand with two Swords and two Lightning Bolt and a Path to Exile. His next draw would have been Disenchant.

Round 4 vs. Goblins

Match 1: My turn one was Revoker on his turn one Vial. I then spammed the board with Tangle Wire (with the help of Metamorph). Then I had a lot tapped because of Tangle Wire but managed to resolve a Forgemaster because of multiple Cloudpost. Blightsteel finished the game without having an untapped blocker.

I sided out 3sphere, thorns and something i cant remember for Wurmcoils, Skites and ratchet bombs.

Match 2: I spam the board with Tangle Wires but I couldn't draw a threat. His Vial eventually got him going.

Match 3: I kept an aggressive hand and aggressively used my Ancient Tombs. I forgot that Goblins have haste and Steel Hellkite was a turn late.

With my resistor build, someone suggested Viseling as a "win condition". Sounds tempting but it does die to Bolt and can't kill fast enough.

So far, I am liking the deck. It is a turn slower than my Welder Build but it's more effective in creating locks and it does crap on itself. Without relying on a lot of mana artifacts to accelerate, I can dedicate those spots for additional resistors. This means that even though I am topdecking crap, my opponent is also not doing anything. All I need is that one Cloudpost to resolve a Forgemaster through a wall of Tangle Wires.

[Alex Holland]

Metamorph + lodestone = very dangerous i think.. also the spheres are very nice.

Decks are just very greedy these days with their 2-3 colors, so obstruction is a valid game plan.

Didnt you miss cavern of souls?

[kingtk3]

Metamorph + lodestone = very dangerous i think..

I don't understand: do you mean in a good or in a bad way?

Personally I play metamorph mainly for copying lodestone...

[(nameless one)]

No because 3sphere and Thorns usually deal with FoW and other permission.

Although my main issue right now are faster combo decks such as Elves, TES and Sneak Show. Turn one Tendrils win, turn two Nat Order and a turn two Show and Tell are too fast for the deck .

I like my current build against Blue midrange and tempo.

[Esper3k]

Although my main issue right now are faster combo decks such as Elves, TES and Sneak Show. Turn one Tendrils win, turn two Nat Order and a turn two Show and Tell are too fast for the deck .


All of those things you listed aren't the normal turns those decks go off on though.

Really, with the exception of Sneaky Show, Chalice & Trinisphere should be fine for dealing with Storm and Elves, or at least should buy you enough time to find another hate piece / beater.

[Alex Holland]

I don't understand: do you mean in a good or in a bad way?

Personally I play metamorph mainly for copying lodestone...

Or sphere of course.. sounds legit. We all had those game where we play lodestone, wasteland, lodestone And then tge other guy just quits :)

[Alex Holland]

Who's playing rachet bomb main? I mean: delver, tarmogoyf, deathrite shaman, bob, lavamancer, goblins, elves, stoneforge... does anyone but us actually play xreatures with cc higher then 2? :p

[kingtk3]

I play none in the main but three in the side.
They come in against fast aggro or hate cards, or when I have unuseful cards in a specific matchup, eg I bring them in against storm for wurmcoil or batterskull

[Mockingbird]

Although my main issue right now are faster combo decks such as Elves, TES and Sneak Show. Turn one Tendrils win, turn two Nat Order and a turn two Show and Tell are too fast for the deck .

I find this curious as well because I've started testing MUD-Post (I'm normally a 12-Post player) because it has a great match-up against combo... and ironically 12-Post. Granted a lot of this hinges on getting a Turn 1 or 2 Chalice or Trinisphere, but most combo decks are not ready for that kind of hit, and it gives an advantage to pull out game one, which is important against any combo deck.

Where're I'm struggling at the moment is being on the draw against tempo decks like Shardless BUG because getting Thoughtseize'd hurts a lot.

[Alex Holland]

Well just remember that ancestrall vision still has to pay additional cost when they resolve, so lodestone en co is very funny against them.

I never had problems with shardless come to think of it, all my creatures stomp their creatures.

[(nameless one)]

I think the main selling point of 12post MUD is a consistent land base.

Chalice at one and 3sphere in the early game is still great. But in doing so, while you blow up yourself (Ancient Tomb) and your own mana base (City of Traitors) hurts a lot.

I understand that Key, Dynamo and in some cases Worn Powerstone could also fix this problem but would rather topdeck a win condition or a means to prevent the opponent from doing something game changing.

[astormbrewing]

I've audibled to the 12post mana base for tomorrow. Wish me luck.

[Mockingbird]

I never had problems with shardless come to think of it, all my creatures stomp their creatures.

My problem with Shardless isn't their creatures; it's their discard. And so far I've had a harder time pulling out of it when I'm on the draw. Granted there's a huge meta game out there that I still have to play against, so after I get some more tests in, I may come back and say that Shardless is nothing.

[CaptainTwiddle]

My problem with Shardless isn't their creatures; it's their discard. And so far I've had a harder time pulling out of it when I'm on the draw. Granted there's a huge meta game out there that I still have to play against, so after I get some more tests in, I may come back and say that Shardless is nothing.

Bottled Cloister seems pretty good against BUG. It blanks their discard, provides you with card advantage, and is invulnerable to abrupt decay.

[Esper3k]

Bottled Cloister seems pretty good against BUG. It blanks their discard, provides you with card advantage, and is invulnerable to abrupt decay.

Agreed. If you're having problems against the hand disruption decks, Bottled Cloister seems pretty amazing against them. It's not like we're casting anything at instant speed anyways.

[kingtk3]

However cloister costs 4 mana, which i think it's a bit too much to be effective against a discard deck.
If you're having problems against discard you can try dodecapod: out of bolt and abrupt range, bigger than everything except goyfs.

In the end chalice Is the best answer i think...

[CaptainTwiddle]

However cloister costs 4 mana, which i think it's a bit too much to be effective against a discard deck.
If you're having problems against discard you can try dodecapod: out of bolt and abrupt range, bigger than everything except goyfs.

In the end chalice Is the best answer i think...

I disagree with this evaluation of Cloister. 4 mana in a MUD deck is more like 2.5-3 mana in a normal deck. If your opponent Thoughtseizes you and sees Cloister, they either take your threat/prison piece and allow you to stick Cloister, or they take Cloister and you just play the spell that is going to advance your game plan. That's ultimately the beauty of MUD; each piece is so powerful that they must each be answered. Hymn to Tourach is potentially troublesome, but selective 1-for-1 discard is less impressive.

[Esper3k]

According to the mothership, a MUD list finished Day 1 undefeated! Keep an eye on Wayne Polimine tomorrow!

[Mockingbird]

Agreed. If you're having problems against the hand disruption decks, Bottled Cloister seems pretty amazing against them. It's not like we're casting anything at instant speed anyways.

I'm thinking I'll try one but also use Witchbane Orb as well because while it doesn't net me extra cards, its flexible in other match-ups and if Witchbane Orb does get blown it up, I will not never see my hand again (my apologies for the double negative).

[(nameless one)]

I've audibled to the 12post mana base for tomorrow. Wish me luck.

Are you the undefeated player in day one?

[astormbrewing]

Are you the undefeated player in day one?

Unfortunately not. I finished 1-3.

Lost 1-2 vs Dark Maverick
Won 2-0 vs Merfolk
Lost 0-2 vs Punishing Jund
Lost 0-2 vs Affinity

Round 1 was a very close one, and I probably should have won. Round 3 was difficult because Liliana is really good against us. I couldn't keep Revoker on board to stop her. Round 4 was a tilting point for me. Game 1 he got double Cranial Plating in the first two turns. Game 2 I boldly kept a 1 lander with Chalice and Revoker, but then never drew any of my other 23 land and just died eventually.

I really like the deck, and I'll tweak it for the future. I'm really tempted to find a place for Revoker in the main deck, because I brought it in against each deck.

What I played:


4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Spellskite
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
4 Trinisphere
1 Karn Liberated
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Domination

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Wasteland
---
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Spine of Ish Sah
1 All is Dust
1 Duplicant
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Silent Arbiter
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Witchbane Orb

[Mockingbird]

MUD (the player's name is Wayne Plis playing Elves splash :b: right now (10:18 AM EST) on MTG coverage against MUD-Post.

--Coverage Notes *will be edited in as they happen*--

Gme 1
MUD-Post T1 is Chalice of the Void @ 1, "killing 90% percent of [elves] deck"--Announcer

T2: Metalworker and Wayne forgot (or didn't care) to announce his Chalice Trigger, which means that the one drop the elf player dropped resolve... yeah, that's legal. But he never caught it

T3: Staff of Domination + Metalworker = Turn 3 Win (see picture below)

Game 2:

T1 and 2: Same set-up T1 Chalice into T2 Metalworker, so far.

He remembered Chalice of the Void this time.

Qasali Pridemage killed Metalworker, followed up by losing to a Turn 4 Craterhoof Behemoth through Gaea's Cradle.

Game 3:

Aggressive mulligan backfire and Thoughtseize kills Wayne's hand. He has an uphill game attacking with Metalworker.

And Wayne lost the war of attrition (two Abrupt Decay and a Qasali Pridemage) and the Craterhoof Behemoth was a little unnecessary. I do agree with the commentators that attacking with Revoker was a turning point, although with Abrupt Decay floating around I dunno if would have made that much of a difference.

[astormbrewing]

MUD is playing Elves right now (10:18 AM EST) on MTG coverage against MUD-Post.

--Coverage Notes *will be edited in as they happen*--

LOL

https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1470104_462464303873728_1145791298_n.jpg

[Alex Holland]

Affinity is really hard for MUD. Even for my stompy, de o-rings are the main problem. Yesterday i played them and the second game lasted about 1hour!
I had 2 revokers on jitte and cranial planting. He ringed 2! of my karns and a wurmcoil. I needed a ratchet bomb to wipe the board of his 2 10/10 master of etheriums, he needed a ring to take out the batterskull i kept replaying. Luckily i got there first :)

I tried out tangle wire + cloudpost too yesterday and it was fun. Until i noticed it wasnt helping my game. Vesuva and cloudpost are just a large annoyence by coming into play tapped. It felt very akward. Plus this day and age most spells are 1/2 mana, even creatures so it isnt that effective. Same reason why people dont care about winter orb.
Me ill keep it stompy for now- altough i still would like to try make a mud version with smokestack in it..

[astormbrewing]

Affinity is really hard for MUD. Even for my stompy, de o-rings are the main problem. Yesterday i played them and the second game lasted about 1hour!
I had 2 revokers on jitte and cranial planting. He ringed 2! of my karns and a wurmcoil. I needed a ratchet bomb to wipe the board of his 2 10/10 master of etheriums, he needed a ring to take out the batterskull i kept replaying. Luckily i got there first :)

I tried out tangle wire + cloudpost too yesterday and it was fun. Until i noticed it wasnt helping my game. Vesuva and cloudpost are just a large annoyence by coming into play tapped. It felt very akward. Plus this day and age most spells are 1/2 mana, even creatures so it isnt that effective. Same reason why people dont care about winter orb.
Me ill keep it stompy for now- altough i still would like to try make a mud version with smokestack in it..

I might try dropping the combo aspect all together (no Forgemaster) for a more stompy/prison version. Hopefully I'll get to an event in December, and I'll report how I do.

[(nameless one)]

I swear the missing piece to the disruption package is Tangle Wire.

Anything that goes through Chalice and Trinisphere sucks. Tangle Wire deals with them. It also ensures that your opponent can't land a heavy hitting 4+ mana spell before you get your game winning robot.

(that Hoof was heartbreaking)

[Mockingbird]

I might try dropping the combo aspect all together (no Forgemaster) for a more stompy/prison version. Hopefully I'll get to an event in December, and I'll report how I do.

I've noticed that as well because when I was testing online today, I was siding out Forgemaster for answers because he doesn't carry the same weight when I'm trying to lockout my opponent.


I swear the missing piece to the disruption package is Tangle Wire.

Anything that goes through Chalice and Trinisphere sucks. Tangle Wire deals with them. It also ensures that your opponent can't land a heavy hitting 4+ mana spell before you get your game winning robot.

(that Hoof was heartbreaking)
I believe you, and I'm pretty sure I'm going to cut Forgemaster for them, but the disruption package isn't the most prevalent problem with MUD-Post, it's the need for more draw power. Staff of Domination and Staff of Nin can't carry all the weight (or Bottled Cloister post board) because they're only two cards, and they're expensive. But going 10-1 (as of that match) is an impressive feat in of itself, so something is right to get that far in the tournament.

Also, if I drop Forgemaster from the deck, I'm probably going to drop Blightsteel as well and replace it with Kozilek, Butcher of Truth for draw power and Eldrazi are more potent when they aren't competing with an end game that can be whisked into play through Forgemaster.

[CaptainTwiddle]

I'm thinking I'll try one [Bottled Cloister] but also use Witchbane Orb as well because while it doesn't net me extra cards, its flexible in other match-ups and if Witchbane Orb does get blown it up, I will not never see my hand again (my apologies for the double negative).

My current sideboard contains 1 Cloister and 1 Witchbane Orb. Cloister is mostly to combat discard or decks with a high density of counterspells. Witchbane Orb also fights discard, but it's has the additional benefit of protecting against Tendrils of Agony out of the storm decks, which puts them on the Empty the Warrens plan, which has a hard time fighting through Wurmcoil Engine.

[kingofethanol]

(that Hoof was heartbreaking)

Sure was...

I'm very excited about the 12-Post build. Wasteland is the obvious concern, but a higher count in lock pieces could make opponents far less willing to use them. Now to decide on Mirrodin or FNM foil...

(nameless_one), how many Tangle Wires do you plan on running? I don't think the full set is necessary, I just don't know if two or three is better.

Another strange little card I have been playing is Uba Mask. It traps the SnT player into the given hand they have (their cheat-cards are either neutered or ineffective), laughs at Brainstorms from time to time, and I believe it stops miracle triggers. I have not resolved it enough to know whether it's actually good or not, but it has been most amusing when I do get it to stick.

[Alex Holland]

Wayne Polimine—MUD

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Wasteland

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
3 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
1 Staff of Domination
2 Staff of Nin
4 Trinisphere

2 Karn Liberated

------------------
Ok this is his (did u know he is a real metalworker? wtf?) deck.

Toughts:

1. staff of domination. kind of random?
2. double karn? Im all for this. Amazing answer to everything + the best land destruction we have! maybe he should play 3 like me :tongue:
3. three? sundering titan? why 3? seems hes planning on hardcasting this too. But is that useful? if you just plain cast them wouldnt you better run something else? Especially when they come late game if you dont use the kuldothas..
4. three wurmcoil engine. Good idea. Im all for this. Better run four. The deathtouch is awesome especially recurring as is lifegain.
5. four trinisphere. I have read the day one report and it seems they played a big role. his comment 'people are greedy nowadays'. I might have to try out some trinispheres myself.
6. When reading the reports, his wins often dont have nothing to do with collosus or titan. He wins because he locks out his opponent, then out races them.
7. Wait.. i already said this.. but i will not stand for the cloudpost lands!!! Why not put in some rishadan ports? Lock them out! And cavern.. it feels totally awesome to land a wurmcoil t3 against a blue player with a hand full of counters.

PS: someone know where i can read his games of today?

[kingofethanol]

Do you have his sideboard?

[astormbrewing]

Toughts:

1. staff of domination. kind of random?
2. double karn? Im all for this. Amazing answer to everything + the best land destruction we have! maybe he should play 3 like me :tongue:
3. three? sundering titan? why 3? seems hes planning on hardcasting this too. But is that useful? if you just plain cast them wouldnt you better run something else? Especially when they come late game if you dont use the kuldothas..
4. three wurmcoil engine. Good idea. Im all for this. Better run four. The deathtouch is awesome especially recurring as is lifegain.
5. four trinisphere. I have read the day one report and it seems they played a big role. his comment 'people are greedy nowadays'. I might have to try out some trinispheres myself.
6. When reading the reports, his wins often dont have nothing to do with collosus or titan. He wins because he locks out his opponent, then out races them.
7. Wait.. i already said this.. but i will not stand for the cloudpost lands!!! Why not put in some rishadan ports? Lock them out! And cavern.. it feels totally awesome to land a wurmcoil t3 against a blue player with a hand full of counters.

PS: someone know where i can read his games of today?

1. Staff of Domination isn't random. It's pretty common, as it creates an infinite combo with Metalworker.

3. He said people are greedy, and that's the exact reason why Titan is in multiples.

5. You're not running Trinisphere? The card is the actual nut.

7. Post lands have been putting up good results lately. You don't have to worry about them countering your creatures when you land a Trinisphere.

I'm not following how Post lands are bad against Wasteland. If you're not running Post lands, then getting your Sol lands wasted hurts quite a bit. However, with Post lands, you have an ability to create a lot of mana later in the game even if your Sol lands are wasted. Plus, having Post lands helps more against Port, which D&T plays (and D&T is popular right now).

[Mockingbird]

1. staff of domination. kind of random? Staff of Domination is utility belt card, and if you watched his Game 1 in round 11, Staff+Metalworker+ at least 3 artifacts in hand = infinite mana + infinite life + infinite card draw



2. double karn? Im all for this. Amazing answer to everything + the best land destruction we have! maybe he should play 3 like me :tongue:Depending on how fast the deck can consistently assemble :7:, four is not unreasonable to ensure Modern format timely presence.


3. three? sundering titan? why 3? seems hes planning on hardcasting this too. But is that useful? if you just plain cast them wouldnt you better run something else? Especially when they come late game if you dont use the kuldothas.I can tell from the aggressiveness of his curve that he plays big things that do big things kind of person, kind of like me. Personally, I think he's overdoing it as well because generally the first Sundering Titan leaving the battlefield is enough to permanently decimate the kinds of mana bases we play it to go after.


4. three wurmcoil engine. Good idea. Im all for this. Better run four. The deathtouch is awesome especially recurring as is lifegain.Wurmcoil Engine is a meta-call. Giant 6/6 with Lifelink is always a good call, but I'm on the fence myself about maining 3 and siding the 4th or maining 4.


5. four trinisphere. I have read the day one report and it seems they played a big role. his comment 'people are greedy nowadays'. I might have to try out some trinispheres myself.I've been playing it, and it is an all star against aggressive low curve decks. They act as Chalice 5-8 (well... sort of) because opponents have to pay a lot more than they intend to with their mana.


6. When reading the reports, his wins often dont have nothing to do with collosus or titan. He wins because he locks out his opponent, then out races them.It's one of the reasons I'm going to start testing Legendary Eldrazi in place of Blightsteel in addition to cutting Forgemaster to focus on the Prison aspect.


7. Wait.. i already said this.. but i will not stand for the cloudpost lands!!! Why not put in some rishadan ports? Lock them out! And cavern.. it feels totally awesome to land a wurmcoil t3 against a blue player with a hand full of counters. Eh... I've come to this thread from the Turbo Eldrazi thread because I heard MUD-Post is gaining steam, and so far I'm having fun with the deck. I will grant you that taking full advantage of the Locus lands is more difficult in a deck that's not built to search them out, but I'm still impressed with Cloudpost's ability to accelerate even in MUD without any support, especially since Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors are arm wrenching to use. I think the Locus lands are useful to MUD.

[SirTylerGalt]

1. staff of domination. kind of random?


Staff of Domination is not random. It has been played in Forgemaster MUD for a long time. With Metalworker + Staff Of Domination and 3 artifacts in hand, you can make infinite mana, gain infinite life, tap all your opponent's board, and draw all your deck.

It's also pretty good on its own if you don't have Metalworker, it can draw cards, tap creatures...

[kingofethanol]

Do you guys keep the Staff in post-board games? It's almost the first card I cut, not because its bad but I rather have a game under control rather than go for the surprise kill. Thoughts?

[(nameless one)]

I've noticed that as well because when I was testing online today, I was siding out Forgemaster for answers because he doesn't carry the same weight when I'm trying to lockout my opponent.


I believe you, and I'm pretty sure I'm going to cut Forgemaster for them, but the disruption package isn't the most prevalent problem with MUD-Post, it's the need for more draw power. Staff of Domination and Staff of Nin can't carry all the weight (or Bottled Cloister post board) because they're only two cards, and they're expensive. But going 10-1 (as of that match) is an impressive feat in of itself, so something is right to get that far in the tournament.

Also, if I drop Forgemaster from the deck, I'm probably going to drop Blightsteel as well and replace it with Kozilek, Butcher of Truth for draw power and Eldrazi are more potent when they aren't competing with an end game that can be whisked into play through Forgemaster.

I didn't really need card draw when I started running 3sphere, Chalice and Tangle Wire. The reason being was while I durdle if I am topdecking lands or non-threat cards, my opponent was also doing the same. Sure he draws a threat or answer but casting them is his/her issue.





(nameless_one), how many Tangle Wires do you plan on running? I don't think the full set is necessary, I just don't know if two or three is better.

Another strange little card I have been playing is Uba Mask. It traps the SnT player into the given hand they have (their cheat-cards are either neutered or ineffective), laughs at Brainstorms from time to time, and I believe it stops miracle triggers. I have not resolved it enough to know whether it's actually good or not, but it has been most amusing when I do get it to stick.

I am running 3 Tangle Wires (and 2 Phyrexian Metamorph) if that helps. I can't draw my threats, Metamorph a Tangle Wire and make everyone durdle.

The Uba Mask idea seems interesting. The issue now is what to cut for that disruption.


Do you have his sideboard?

2 All Is Dust
1 Batterskull
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Platinum Angel
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spellskite
2 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Tormod's Crypt



It's (Staff of Domination) also pretty good on its own if you don't have Metalworker, it can draw cards, tap creatures...
I think Staff of Domination is better in this build because you can create a lot of mana with Postlands. With the old school Monolith+Key MUD, you cannot really utilize Staff.


Do you guys keep the Staff in post-board games? It's almost the first card I cut, not because its bad but I rather have a game under control rather than go for the surprise kill. Thoughts?
No comment because I myself currently do not run it. I have a pair of them from my draft days (how I cherish them). Maybe its time to try them out.

[Alex Holland]

It's one of the reasons I'm going to start testing Legendary Eldrazi in place of Blightsteel in addition to cutting Forgemaster to focus on the Prison aspect.



Well theres only 1 eldrazi that i really like to play: Kozilek. Anihilator 4? Draw 4? yes. Thats a good card to really cast.

But you will need work to get there.
With my non-post land base i get to 7-8 mana EVERY game. I know because i play 3 karn and 2 allisdust main. And they are never dead cards in my hands.

However if you want eldrazi you need to stall the game to get to the mana. And you need more mana. I do play 3 thran dynamo main, there a steady mana source, often i throw away a monolith just to play a thran dynamo.

My problem with 12 post is that you often timewalk yourself, lets say you play a t1 ancient tomb, wich is then wasted. t2 you play a cloudpost wich comes into play tapped. Well there u go, u just timewalked yourself. :laugh: - okay maybe ill try them one more time since they seem all the rage here now..


For those interested, this is what i am now playing main:

LANDS (22)
4x ancient tomb
4x city of traitors
4x cavern of souls
4x wasteland
2x rishadan port
4x mishras factory

DISRUPTION (15)
4x chalice of the void
3x trinisphere
4x phyrexian revoker
4x lodestone golem

HARD HITTING (7)
3x batterskull
4x wurmcoil engine

MANA (11)
4x metalworker
4x grim monolith
3x thran dynamo

REMOVAL (5)
2x ratchet bomb
3x karn liberated

Just did 5 games against UW stoneforge delver and won freakin 4.. never knew that was possible. Trinisphere gave me 1 game!

[astormbrewing]

My problem with 12 post is that you often timewalk yourself, lets say you play a t1 ancient tomb, wich is then wasted. t2 you play a cloudpost wich comes into play tapped. Well there u go, u just timewalked yourself. :laugh: - okay maybe ill try them one more time since they seem all the rage here now

But you play the Ancient Tomb T1 because you have a play, such as Chalice on 1 or Monolith into Trinisphere. If you then get wasted and only have Cloudpost as a follow up, your opponent is probably behind because of your T1 hate (the only time its really bad is if you're playing against RUG Delver and they Force your T1 then waste your T1 Tomb). If you don't have a T1 play, then play Cloudpost T1 and Tomb T2.


Do you guys keep the Staff in post-board games? It's almost the first card I cut, not because its bad but I rather have a game under control rather than go for the surprise kill. Thoughts?

It depends on your opponent. Staff is fine post-board if you're against a deck like Sneak and Show or Merfolk. With the former, you can tap down their big creature. With the latter, you can kill their Phantasmal Images just by targeting to tap them. In a lot of other matches, I board it out for more specific hate.

[kingofethanol]

It depends on your opponent. Staff is fine post-board if you're against a deck like Sneak and Show or Merfolk. With the former, you can tap down their big creature. With the latter, you can kill their Phantasmal Images just by targeting to tap them. In a lot of other matches, I board it out for more specific hate.

Thanks for the response.
I should have clarified, it was Staff of Domination I was talking about.
I assume you can save :1: by choosing to untap the Image :really:?

In regards to Uba Mask - I only run two in the board. I will be updating my list to fit the 12Post plan, so I'll see if the new 75 will have room for the Mask. There's a good chance it's not even needed, it's just a really exciting card to resolve.

Another not-so-playable card that I have found some success with is Precursor Golem. It helps against the creature MUs that don't pack too much removal (Merfolk with the occasional Dismember, Gempalm Inc. cannot remove all three) or any sort of deck you need a fast clock against (Enchantress, Tezzerator maybe?). It's probably not playable in a large tournament as its extremely narrow, but I pack it somewhere in my 75 when I'm going to a medium/small sized tournament where I know what to more or less expect. :5: also casts you Batterskull, but having a ~2 turn clock/3 blockers doesn't seem bad. (Batterskull is just better... :rolleyes:)

Faerie Macabre vs. Tormod's Crypt - For those on the Trinisphere plan, has Tormod's Crypt additional cost been bothersome? Faerie Macabe dodges the additional cost, can be a rude surprise to the opponent, but is obviously less powerful. Is there a strictly better choice between the two?

[astormbrewing]

I assume you can save :1: by choosing to untap the Image :really:?

Yeah, you can, haha. I didn't think about it.


Faerie Macabre vs. Tormod's Crypt - For those on the Trinisphere plan, has Tormod's Crypt additional cost been bothersome? Faerie Macabe dodges the additional cost, can be a rude surprise to the opponent, but is obviously less powerful. Is there a strictly better choice between the two?

I've been back and forth on this. I like that Tormod's Crypt helps Metalworker and Kuldotha Forgemaster, plus I can play Crypt turn 1 against Dredge and sit on it. With Faerie Macabre, the Dredge player could Cabal Therapy it away before you get maximum use out of it. It's narrow, but Macabre may be better.

[(nameless one)]

I am trying to fit Naked Singularity a piece of hate.

Maybe its too cute but we'll see.

[Alex Holland]

Definitly too cute. Cmon man there delvers out there! :cry:

[Mockingbird]

I also posted this on MTGSalvation, but I'm looking for feedback. This is what I'm testing at the moment:


//Lands: 24
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Wasteland

//Creatures: 11
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Kozilek, Butcher of Trutch
2 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine

//Artifacts:
1 Bottled Cloister
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Crystal Ball
4 Grim Monolith
1 Staff of Domination
2 Staff of Nin
4 Tangle Wire
4 Trinisphere

Some quick explanations:
Crystal Ball costs :3:, so I'm trying it because with this deck's goal of hitting Chalice for 1 by turn 2, Sensei's Divining Top is an unreasonable deck choice for situation quality control. I'm trying it as a one of now, although if I want to go for a cheaper alternative that's not top, I'm not beneath Darksteel Pendant.

Kozilek, Butcher of Truth is in there because without Kuldoltha Forgemaster, Blightsteel Colossus loses a lot of luster because like someone mentioned, I don't have an "I just win now" button anymore. Kozilek acts as a finisher in that
1. His Tidings has to be Stifled, not Counterspelled.
2. Graveyard recycling.
3. If he gets to swing, then while it doesn't kill them on the spot, it does set their field back.

(If I find room for a Karakas, I might make room for Emrakul to go infinite turns on top of infinite Staff of Domination.)

Also, I'm running a main Bottled Cloister because it can't be hit by an Abrupt Decay and is cheaper than upping my Staff of Domination/Nin count so high because both are expensive to cast or maintain. I'm not going so high on it though (yet) because the risk of putting my hand on the line. Depending on my meta will depend on how many I try to run.

[Alex Holland]

This thread is out of control. So please, let me give another crazy idea.
Anyone ever noticed this combo: su-chi + nim death mantle. Unremovable, undestroyable 6/6 unblockable clock. :laugh:

[Zirath]

I might as well get in on this. I was thinking about a new build of MUD for myself. Here's where I am starting:

4 Metalworker
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Batterskull
4 Kudoltha Forgemaster

2 Karn Liberated

4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith

2 Buried Ruin
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

[(nameless one)]

I might as well get in on this. I was thinking about a new build of MUD for myself. Here's where I am starting:

4 Metalworker
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Batterskull
4 Kudoltha Forgemaster

2 Karn Liberated

4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith

2 Buried Ruin
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Seems standard.

My current issue right now is losing the dice roll, mainly a turn one Delver.

Typically I never win this game. I was thinking of Powder Keg (Ratchet Bomb doesn't wind under an active Tangle Wire if needed) to deal with Insectile Abberation and but in doing so, I also undo my Chalices.

Any suggestions?

Otherwise I am feeling more comfortable with the 12Post list.

[GoblinSettler]

Seems standard.

My current issue right now is losing the dice roll, mainly a turn one Delver.

Any suggestions?

Contagion Clasp? It also has some potential for fun interactions with Tangle Wire and Chalice.

[astormbrewing]

Wow. Contagion Clasp? Su-Chi? Nim Deathmantle? Crystal Ball? Naked Singularity? Let's get back on the reservation here.

I'm not a big fan of Tangle Wire without Goblin Welder. The card really shines when you can sacrifice it before it really affects you. I'm not dismissing it, though, because its a fine card if you have sufficient disruption in the first couple turns.

I also dislike Rishadan Port in a deck running Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors. We're either hurting ourselves to tap their land (using Ancient Tomb) or cutting off our own mana development (using City of Traitors). Sure, we have the 12 post lands to help, and use could pay for Port easier in later turns. But isn't Wasteland and our other hate cards just superior? Isn't it better to just use our mana to jam out big creatures?

I'm working on a Forge-less build, but sticking to traditional card choices.


4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Spellskite
3 Steel Hellkite
2 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
1 Karn Liberated
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Trinisphere

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Wasteland

---
2 All is Dust
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Witchbane Orb
2 Wurmcoil Engine


I'm happy to field questions about my build.

[Snapback]

Went 6-3 at DC (no byes) with Welder MUD. In pre-tournament testing, I couldn't get the 12-post version to a place I liked against Shardless BUG or Delver decks, so I audibled to Blood Moons and Welder recursion. Congrats to both MUD players who took a 12-post version into Day 2.

Creatures (21):
4 Goblin Welder
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan

Spells (19):
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Blood Moon
3 Lotus Petal
2 Voltaic Key
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Nin
1 Staff of Domination

Lands (20):
2 Darksteel Citadel
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

Sideboard (15):
3 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Blood Moon
1 Platinum Emperion
2 Trinisphere
1 Karn, Liberated
2 Bottled Cloister
1 All is Dust
1 Ensnaring Bridge

I beat Merfolk, TES, GW Enchantress, RUG Delver, Elves, and UWR Miracles. Lost to Manaless Dredge, a 2nd Elves player, and my round 9 win-and-in against UR Delver. My losses were due to a combination of deck inconsistency, bad mulligan decisions, misplays from being unfamiliar with the Welder version, and a couple misplays from nerves. My Elves opponent that gave me a loss had the nuts twice, but I could have made the game quite close if I had played better. Given what I played against, I really would have liked access to a 2nd Hellkite in the board, and possibly some ratchet bombs somewhere.

Overall, I'm happy with the choice. Goblin Welder was completely insane all day long. In fact, all the creatures were A+, with the exception of Forgemaster, which I see as a necessary evil to add consistency to the deck. However, Stifle is popular enough at the moment that I am inspired to test a version without him.

[Gojira]

Went 6-3 at DC (no byes) with Welder MUD. In pre-tournament testing, I couldn't get the 12-post version to a place I liked against Shardless BUG or Delver decks, so I audibled to Blood Moons and Welder recursion. Congrats to both MUD players who took a 12-post version into Day 2.

Creatures (21):
4 Goblin Welder
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan

Spells (19):
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Blood Moon
3 Lotus Petal
2 Voltaic Key
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Nin
1 Staff of Domination

Lands (20):
2 Darksteel Citadel
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

Sideboard (15):
3 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Blood Moon
1 Platinum Emperion
2 Trinisphere
1 Karn, Liberated
2 Bottled Cloister
1 All is Dust
1 Ensnaring Bridge

I beat Merfolk, TES, GW Enchantress, RUG Delver, Elves, and UWR Miracles. Lost to Manaless Dredge, a 2nd Elves player, and my round 9 win-and-in against UR Delver. My losses were due to a combination of deck inconsistency, bad mulligan decisions, misplays from being unfamiliar with the Welder version, and a couple misplays from nerves. My Elves opponent that gave me a loss had the nuts twice, but I could have made the game quite close if I had played better. Given what I played against, I really would have liked access to a 2nd Hellkite in the board, and possibly some ratchet bombs somewhere.

Overall, I'm happy with the choice. Goblin Welder was completely insane all day long. In fact, all the creatures were A+, with the exception of Forgemaster, which I see as a necessary evil to add consistency to the deck. However, Stifle is popular enough at the moment that I am inspired to test a version without him.
I'm surprised you main blood moon and not trinisphere, when trinisphere is better against more decks. Blood moon destroys certain decks, but I wouldn't put it before trinisphere. Also, did you feel you had too few lands? I see you have lotus petals, but 20 lands seems low for this version, idk

[Mockingbird]

This thread is out of control. So please, let me give another crazy idea.
Anyone ever noticed this combo: su-chi + nim death mantle. Unremovable, undestroyable 6/6 unblockable clock. :laugh:

That could make Smokestack a viable prison pressure piece. Or if the mana is high enough, Deathmantle alone could make never ending Wurm tokens with Deathmantle + Smokestack.

[SirTylerGalt]

I might as well get in on this. I was thinking about a new build of MUD for myself. Here's where I am starting:

4 Metalworker
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Batterskull
4 Kudoltha Forgemaster

2 Karn Liberated

4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith

2 Buried Ruin
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Why play Forgemaster if you don't have any bombs to tutor (apart from Wurmcoil Engine)? Wouldn't MUD Stompy be better? If I really wanted the Forgemaster, I would at least play a 1-of Myr Battlesphere and Phyrexian metamorph to one-shot my opponent when needed*. And possibly a Sundering Titan and Steel Hellkite. I don't like Blightsteel because it's too conditional.



* EOT tap Forgemaster, sac 3 artifacts, get Myr Battlesphere and 4 tokens. During my turn, tap Forgemaster, sac 1 token and 2 other artifacts, get Phyrexian Metamorph, copying Myr Battlesphere, entering the battlefield with 4 tokens (7 tokens total). Attack with the Myr Battlesphere that is not summoning sick, tapping the other Battlesphere and 7 tokens for a total of 18 damage...

[(nameless one)]

Well with Forgemaster, he can 'recycle' Grim Monoliths.

[Snapback]

I'm surprised you main blood moon and not trinisphere, when trinisphere is better against more decks. Blood moon destroys certain decks, but I wouldn't put it before trinisphere. Also, did you feel you had too few lands? I see you have lotus petals, but 20 lands seems low for this version, idk

I decided to trust in Chalice and Lodestone, and sideboard Trinispheres, to carry 2 of 3 against those decks. I wanted something main-deck that you had to use Abrupt Decay on the spot for. As the tournament turned out, I didn't play against any BUG, junk, or blue blade decks, but they were certainly filling up the top tables. As far as lands, 20 was tight, but I mostly felt it when the monoliths and metalworkers got killed or countered. With few ways to filter or draw more cards, I want gas on top of the library as much as possible.

[Zirath]

I think turning extra Chalices, Trinispheres and dead Monoliths into Wurmcoil Engines is a pretty good plan. I have to tune it a little. I might end up cutting the Forgemen altogether but that's where I am starting from.