[Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

[Esper3k]

I think turning extra Chalices, Trinispheres and dead Monoliths into Wurmcoil Engines is a pretty good plan. I have to tune it a little. I might end up cutting the Forgemen altogether but that's where I am starting from.

I had a similar idea recently as well (trying to do Stompy + Forgemaster), but haven't gotten around to really fiddling with it.

I do think that with the current influx of TNN, every MUD deck should be playing at least 1 Steel Hellkite over a Wurmcoil Engine due to his ability to deal with the little blue super-wall.

[(nameless one)]

Why is Steel Hellkite better than Wurmcoil Engine (in Post Builds):

- Glimmerpost nets you life, so Lifelink from Wurmcoil isn't crucial.
- You can nuke your opponent's board with Steel Hellkite
- With Multiple Cloudposts, you can swing with Steel Hellkite for 5+
- Flying

I tried playtesting Wayne's list and it boggles me how he went undefeated for day 1. I do agree that it's explosive but it was also awkward. I did have a hand where I kept four cards and won. Chalice into 3sphere into Tangle Wire into more Tangle Wire (Metamorph) bought me enough time to build up my Cloudpost count to get Steel Hellkite going. Then swinging with a 10/5 Hellkite for turns felt great.

[biglongjohns]

My current issue right now is losing the dice roll, mainly a turn one Delver.

Typically I never win this game. I was thinking of Powder Keg (Ratchet Bomb doesn't wind under an active Tangle Wire if needed) to deal with Insectile Abberation and but in doing so, I also undo my Chalices.

Any suggestions?

Otherwise I am feeling more comfortable with the 12Post list.

I think two Ratchet Bomb is key in the sideboard. Sometimes you will have all the Chalices/Trinispheres in the world when you're on the draw and a T1 Delver can be all they need to win. Ratchet Bomb is a nice escape button that doesn't cost too much mana (not All is Dust) when you're playing against tempo strategies.

[Kyle]

I'm currently playing with this list, which is about 50/50. It has the biggest problems against UWx and seems to heavily rely on explosive hands.

I like the Wurmcoil Engine / Lodestome Golem aggro fallback, but still feel like something's missing, mostly to do with bad draws. Would love some advice to shore up some of the weaknesses (and find out what the weaknesses are, as well).

My local meta has Maverick, D&T, BUG Delver, Lands, Affinity, Elves, Esper Stoneblade, and RUG.

//LAND
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Buried Ruin

//ARTIFACTS
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
3 Voltaic Key
3 Lightning Greaves
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Staff of Domination
1 Spine of Ish Sah

//CREATURES
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Platinum Emperion

//SIDEBOARD
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Trinisphere
3 Defense Grid
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Bottled Cloister
2 Faerie Macabre

[astormbrewing]

I'm currently playing with this list, which is about 50/50. It has the biggest problems against UWx and seems to heavily rely on explosive hands.

I like the Wurmcoil Engine / Lodestome Golem aggro fallback, but still feel like something's missing, mostly to do with bad draws. Would love some advice to shore up some of the weaknesses (and find out what the weaknesses are, as well).

My local meta has Maverick, D&T, BUG Delver, Lands, Affinity, Elves, Esper Stoneblade, and RUG.

//LAND
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Buried Ruin

//ARTIFACTS
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
3 Voltaic Key
3 Lightning Greaves
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Staff of Domination
1 Spine of Ish Sah

//CREATURES
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Platinum Emperion

//SIDEBOARD
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Trinisphere
3 Defense Grid
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Bottled Cloister
2 Faerie Macabre

If you don't have to worry about Dredge or Reanimator, you should play Tormod's Crypt to hose Maverick (KotR), because that card can be quite the beating. Also, if Maverick, D&T, Affinity, and Elves are rather prevalent, you should play Steel Hellkite in multiples.

For your list in general, I think 2 Crucibles is 2 too many (1 is the most you need to run, if at all). I also dislike 6 singleton creatures.

[Alex Holland]

I will try to take to make room for 2 hellkite. First time since i play MUD that im trying this.

maybe ill switch my 2 all is dust for 2 hellkites since its 1 mana cheaper, can go true counters with cavern and is a mana sink win con.

I already play 2 ratchet bomb MAIN at the moment because its all delvers, tarmogoyf, kotr and nemesis. I suggest every serious MUD deck bring their removal package to deal with this crap.
For stompy i would go with Karn (targeted reusable and win con) and ratchet bomb (cheap, flexible). For forgemaster i would go with spine of ish shah (awesome recurring with welder). Others like Hellkite, allisdust etc are a matter of taste.

[astormbrewing]

I will try to take to make room for 2 hellkite. First time since i play MUD that im trying this.

maybe ill switch my 2 all is dust for 2 hellkites since its 1 mana cheaper, can go true counters with cavern and is a mana sink win con.

I already play 2 ratchet bomb MAIN at the moment because its all delvers, tarmogoyf, kotr and nemesis. I suggest every serious MUD deck bring their removal package to deal with this crap.
For stompy i would go with Karn (targeted reusable and win con) and ratchet bomb (cheap, flexible). For forgemaster i would go with spine of ish shah (awesome recurring with welder). Others like Hellkite, allisdust etc are a matter of taste.

I run 2 All is Dust in the side along with my 3 main Hellkites. I don't play Forgemaster, but I do play 1 Spine main and 2 more side, because it's the best card against Show and Tell.

[Alex Holland]

another observation wich who some might not agree: trinisphere is a nice card against storm decks, counters etc but should NEVER be MAIN deck!

Against some decks its just #$%.. Because 2 is a holy number for people of the MUD religion!! (Karn told me this in a dream :mad:)

Sol land give 2, monolith is 2, metalworker makes pairs of 2 mana...trinisphere doesnt respect the number two.

I have had moments where i needed a revoker or a monolith wich i couldnt drop because of trinisphere.. that cant be right.. Plus if you have a metalworker or monolith out you often want to play 2 spells, one thread and one defensive 2 mana card wich you cant because of trinisphere!

I think defense grid is better against blue decks with counters. defense grid respects our number 2. True believers should burn trinisphere at the stake! (unless expecting storm)

[kingtk3]

The thing is, however, that with trini in play you can lock people from play with waste and ports. However I have to admit that sometimes is awkward and multiples are unuseful.

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[astormbrewing]

Do you seriously have a problem casting spells because they cost 3 instead of 2?

Also, if you can generate 6 mana, you can play two 2 mana spells with Trinisphere in play. Fancy that!

Trinisphere is absolutely better than Defense Grid, and it shuts down a lot of decks in Legacy. It should be 3 or 4 in the main every single time.

[CaptainTwiddle]

I think that Trinisphere is a solid maindeck card in non-Welder builds, but I don't think I'd run more than 3 main, as multiples are redundant.

I've played the Welder version of MUD exclusively so far, so I don't have experience with the 12-post version. I've seen more comments lately about playing Rishadan Port, but I just can't get behind it. If you draw Port, you want to play it, but if you're running City of Traitors, sometimes you don't want to play another land and I'm sure as heck not looking to tap an Ancient Tomb to activate Port.

One last observation is that people seem to be jumping all over Steel Hellkite lately. Maybe it's just my local meta, but I'm not really interested in the Hellkite. I currently have one in my board and 4 Wurmcoil in the main (not a lot of "fair" decks in my meta), though I am thinking of going with a 3/1 split of Wurm/Hellkite. I just feel like there aren't that many situations where a Hellkite is really that much more impressive than a Wurmcoil.

[Greenpoe]

I think that Trinisphere is a solid maindeck card in non-Welder builds, but I don't think I'd run more than 3 main, as multiples are redundant.

Why not just play 1? I know the rule is to never play a 1-of unless you can tutor for it, but Trinidad is so awful in multiples, and yet if you draw into in the mid-to-late game, it's still fine vs. a million things in the format.

[Esper3k]

I just feel like there aren't that many situations where a Hellkite is really that much more impressive than a Wurmcoil.

The main reason to start running it is because of wanting to have a proactive answer to TNN. If you're staring across the board at someone from behind their TNN vs your Wurmcoil, chances are they're going to win due to having better ways to manipulate their draws and counter our spells.

[astormbrewing]

I love playing Trinisphere as a 3-of or 4-of. I really want to increase my chances of being able to play it T1 or T2, because it really just wrecks a lot of decks in the format. We don't play in a vacuum; having multiples in your hand isn't awful because your opponent will likely counter Trinisphere or try to destroy it quickly. Having a follow-up Trinisphere just continues to hamper their game plan.

Steel Hellkite is still a meta decision, but I like it much better than Wurmcoil against Merfolk and Elves. Gaining 6 life is nice, but being able to destroy their entire board (especially since Hellkite is essentially unblockable against those decks) is much nicer.

And thank you CaptainTwiddle for reiterating what I said last page about Rishadan Port. Its nice to have someone on my side for that card.

[(nameless one)]

Alright,

The Disruption Package:

Chalice: it's great. It stops a lot of spells essential to Legacy, from Brainstorms to StPs. But it can't stop them all and won't slow your opponent's bomb. So you use:

Trinisphere: making everything cost 3 gears everything down to glacial speed. This allows you to get to mid game where your creatures are supreme. But even with 3ball, you can't stop mid-late game bombs so you drop:

Lodestone Golem: he makes every relevant thing cost one more. Sure you can't counter Supreme Verdict but if your opponent can't cast it, so what. But eventually your opponents will have enough lands which is why...

Tangle Wire: comes in. It makes sure that your opponent gets tapped out, giving him less options while facing down a Lodestone Golem or any of your threats.

I believe that all the cards mentioned above are important in tackling the current metagame or even the format itself.

[manugl84]

Alright,

The Disruption Package:

Chalice: it's great. It stops a lot of spells essential to Legacy, from Brainstorms to StPs. But it can't stop them all and won't slow your opponent's bomb. So you use:

Trinisphere: making everything cost 3 gears everything down to glacial speed. This allows you to get to mid game where your creatures are supreme. But even with 3ball, you can't stop mid-late game bombs so you drop:

Lodestone Golem: he makes every relevant thing cost one more. Sure you can't counter Supreme Verdict but if your opponent can't cast it, so what. But eventually your opponents will have enough lands which is why...

Tangle Wire: comes in. It makes sure that your opponent gets tapped out, giving him less options while facing down a Lodestone Golem or any of your threats.

I believe that all the cards mentioned above are important in tackling the current metagame or even the format itself.

What about Thorn of amethyst maindeck?. I jusy saw this list, which made top4 in an 98 people tournament in Spain:

Maindeck (61)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
3 Wasteland

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Platinum Angel
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Mox Diamond
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Domination
4 Thorn of Amethyst

Sideboard (15)
4 Dodecapod
2 All Is Dust
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Trinisphere

[astormbrewing]

What about Thorn of amethyst maindeck?. I jusy saw this list, which made top4 in an 98 people tournament in Spain:

Maindeck (61)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
3 Wasteland

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Platinum Angel
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Mox Diamond
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Domination
4 Thorn of Amethyst

Sideboard (15)
4 Dodecapod
2 All Is Dust
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Trinisphere

I'm running 2 Thorns main and 2 Thorns side, but I'm also not running Forgemaster (my list is here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23388-Deck-MUD-(Metalworker)&p=767157&viewfull=1#post767157)). I think it is a great card, but at least in my meta, I don't want 4 because there is a lot of D&T currently. My basic plan is that if I'm against a creature heavy deck, I'm going to board the 2 Thorns out for 2 All is Dust (unless I'm against Affinity, obv), and if I'm against a combo/storm deck, I'll find space for the full set of Thorns (along with 4 Lodestone Golems and 3 Phyrexian Metamorphs).

Also, DODECAPOD? Holy crap that's obscure and rather narrow. Neat, but I don't think I could ever recommend it.

[Zirath]

I have theorized about MD Thorn a couple times in MUD. I am not sure if it's better than Trinisphere still. Trinisphere does not slow us down but sometimes it doesn't slow down our opponents.

[CaptainTwiddle]

Why not just play 1 [Trinisphere]? I know the rule is to never play a 1-of unless you can tutor for it, but Trinidad is so awful in multiples, and yet if you draw into in the mid-to-late game, it's still fine vs. a million things in the format.

3sphere is one of those cards that you build your deck around. It is really powerful against most decks, so if you're going to play it, it's something that you want to see early in most games. As such, you want to run multiple copies. The problem is, as stated previously, the effect is redundant, so additional 3spheres just tend to become conditional mana sources (held in hand to power up Metalworker). In post-board games, with opponents bringing in artifact hate, playing out additional 3spheres can be a value. For this reason, I think if I were to switch away from a Welder build, I'd probably run 3 Trinisphere in the MD and consider the 4th for the SB. In my Welder build, I run no 3sphere main, but have 2 in the board and am considering upping it to 3.

[Alex Holland]

(3) Culling scales:

At the beginning of your upkeep, destroy target nonland permanent with the lowest converted mana cost. (If two or more permanents are tied for lowest cost, target any one of them.)

This drop of honey type card could actually work, figure playing this against merfolk delver or stoneforge decks.. My lowest cards are 2 mana, but hell I still get to pick wich victim is being sacrificed and it targets loads of legacy permanents. Figure playing this t2 after opponent plays delver and stoneforge. He probaly goes like what the... Could this work?

[CaptainTwiddle]

(3) Culling scales:

At the beginning of your upkeep, destroy target nonland permanent with the lowest converted mana cost. (If two or more permanents are tied for lowest cost, target any one of them.)

This drop of honey type card could actually work, figure playing this against merfolk delver or stoneforge decks.. My lowest cards are 2 mana, but hell I still get to pick wich victim is being sacrificed and it targets loads of legacy permanents. What u think???

Culling Scales is rather slow and doesn't play well with Chalice of the Void (as it has a CMC of 0 on the battlefield), which is why I suspect it hasn't gotten any love in MUD yet. If it's a choice between Scales and Chalice, Chalice wins hands down.

[Alex Holland]

Culling Scales is rather slow and doesn't play well with Chalice of the Void (as it has a CMC of 0 on the battlefield), which is why I suspect it hasn't gotten any love in MUD yet. If it's a choice between Scales and Chalice, Chalice wins hands down.

Oops yes your probaly right.

However u can keep it in hand for the right time, and chalice wont always get in play. Still another artifact i didnt knew. Must be more hidden gems out there :tongue:

[CaptainTwiddle]

Oops yes your probaly right.

However u can keep it in hand for the right time, and chalice wont always get in play. Still another artifact i didnt knew. Must be more hidden gems out there :tongue:

Scales is a cool card, for sure. I just don't think there's room for it in MUD as we know it. The anti-synergy with Chalice is a real issue, and unlike Chalice, Scales does little to nothing against Storm and other combo decks. You could consider it as a sideboard card that you bring in to replace Chalice in some matchups, but I'd still rather just have my opponents creatures/permanents countered than allow them to sit for a turn and provide some value (even if it's only a little). Maybe if an Aether Vial/Cavern of Souls deck becomes a real force, then Culling Scales could be something to consider.

[kingofethanol]

The Post mana base has been very effective thus far. I am only running 11 out of the full 12 Loci, as Vesuva can be a very sketchy card to see in your opener. It is too painful to see City of Traitors and a Vesuva on the play. I've also had to copy Cephalid Coliseums and Underground Seas on the draw a few times (thank goodness they didn't play a fetch and pass).

Finally tinkered around enough to fit 3 Tangle Wires in my list. I have not tested them yet, but I'm really looking forward to it. The current iteration is Forge-less, as I figured that in a more Stax oriented strategy the right mana denial should be enough to get you there, making Blightsteel overkill. I'll post results when I have them.

I'm a huge proponent for Steel Hellkite. I have always played at least one in my 75 - his X ability is just insane, is a win-condition if you have Staff/Worker (winning the game with Blightsteel feels so good but I've been trying to wean off of it), and I do feel very comfortable with having an out to True-Name Nemesis. I currently have a 3/3 split between it and Wurmcoil, and am almost tempted to push it to 4/2 to make Tangle Wires more potent. Unless I am low on life and need the Wurm to save me, I almost always rather see Hellkite. There's always something to torch. I can even see an ANT player playing his Diamonds/Petals early to avoid Trinisphere/Chalice, and then having those blown up.

Can't decide between the two? Just play Henge Guardian :tongue:.

[(nameless one)]

Doing some math in my head while working and I have a close conclusion to the numbers:

28 Mana sources (lands and artifact-not including Metalworker)
12 "Staxx/resistor" effects (not including Lodestone Golem)
20 Creatures

Since there are not determined lists, I am still testing obscure cards such as Amulet of Vigor. Amulet would be categorized as Mana source (for 12post lists). In multiples, one Cloudpost/copy can actually be tapped multiple times depending on your Amulet number. Alternatively, you can use Voltaic Key as a mana boost because of Grim Monolith.

I noticed that a lot of Vintage Forgemaster-less aggro lists follow a similar formula above.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

What's the exact ruling on Blighsteel Colossus' replacement effect? Dude tried to exirpate it, and I wasn't able to find the appropriate rule, because the repleffects rulings are mess.

[aluisiocsantos]

Extirpate gotta respond to the triggered ability of BC getting shuffled. The ability is countered because Blightsteel is removed from the game by the time it resolves.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Extirpate gotta respond to the triggered ability of BC getting shuffled. The ability is countered because Blightsteel is removed from the game by the time it resolves.

Except that replacement effect doesn't use stack.

[Shawon]

You could explain to the guy that the replacement effect makes it so that BC never hits the graveyard since it instead shuffles into the library, thus it never becomes a legal target for Extirpate. How can you target a card in the graveyard that never went to the graveyard in the first place?

[Esper3k]

What's the exact ruling on Blighsteel Colossus' replacement effect? Dude tried to exirpate it, and I wasn't able to find the appropriate rule, because the repleffects rulings are mess.


Extirpate gotta respond to the triggered ability of BC getting shuffled. The ability is countered because Blightsteel is removed from the game by the time it resolves.


You could explain to the guy that the replacement effect makes it so that BC never hits the graveyard since it instead shuffles into the library, thus it never becomes a legal target for Extirpate. How can you target a card in the graveyard that never went to the graveyard in the first place?

Shawon is correct. The key word in the ability is "instead", which means it's a replacement ability, not a triggered ability (Emrakul's ability is a triggered ability, for example).

Because it's a replacement ability, there is nothing to respond to with Extirpate. It will never be in the graveyard for Extirpate to target.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Wait, I think I wasn't accurate with my question

I know how this works and I know that DC never hts the gy, but what is the ruling's number/paragraph? I looked through the Comprules and F4ed all the "replacement" placements, but I still couldn't put my finger on the exact sentence that would confirm my words.

[evilGod]

614.1 should cover it. The event of 'being put in a graveyard' is completely replaced by 'shuffle into library'.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

614.1 should cover it. The event of 'being put in a graveyard' is completely replaced by 'shuffle into library'.

Thanks! I must have missed that!

[Zorker]

Hello i've decided to try MUD deck,the variant i liked more was the 12post one So here is my Incomplete list( There are some cards that are must).

Land [24]

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 City of Traitors
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost


Artifact [14]

4 Trinisphere
1 Staff of Domination
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Staff of Nin
4 Grim Monolith

Creature [17]

4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Sundering Titan
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Blightsteel Colossus

This leaves me with 5 cards to mess around, anyone got suggestions?, anyway i had some cards in mind.

- myr battlesphere, Phyrexian metamorph, Tanglewire, Lightning greaves etc.

[Esper3k]

I'd include at least 1 Steel Hellkite, especially in the Forgemaster lists where you can tutor it up. With TNN around, Hellkite provides an answer + mana sink for all at 12 Post mana.

[Zorker]

Thanks i forgot him.

[Esper3k]

No prob. A Spine of Ish Shah would probably be useful too.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

'Nother MUD noob here. I was finally able to obtain the cards I needed at GPDC and I've been playtesting with multiple builds. All of my testing has been exclusively with the mainboard. I'll construct a sideboard once I'm satisfied with the mainboard. The mainboard is as follows:

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
4 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Mox Diamond
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Domination
3 Trinisphere

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Wasteland

Although I'm quite content with this for the most part, there are still some cards I'm iffy on.

Blightsteel Colossus: Although I like the Colossus, I'm wondering if it's even necessary for the deck to function. While I've killed plenty of people off of Forgemaster into Colossus + Greaves, it seems very win-more.

Staff of Domination: Again, it doesn't feel necessary. I've never been excited by the utility it offers, and Staff infinites have been few and far between for me. This might just be better as Staff of Nin.

Wurmcoil Engine: The fourth one seems like another case of win-more syndrome. Perhaps this should a Staff of Nin as well.

Vesuva: It's necessary, but it feels so bad to have a two land hand with this and either Cloudpost or, even worse, City of Traitors. Perhaps cutting a fourth Vesuva for a 1-of utility land or another artifact would be correct?

Any thoughts would welcomed.

[kingofethanol]

Blightsteel Colossus: Although I like the Colossus, I'm wondering if it's even necessary for the deck to function. While I've killed plenty of people off of Forgemaster into Colossus + Greaves, it seems very win-more.

Staff of Domination: Again, it doesn't feel necessary. I've never been excited by the utility it offers, and Staff infinites have been few and far between for me. This might just be better as Staff of Nin.

Wurmcoil Engine: The fourth one seems like another case of win-more syndrome. Perhaps this should a Staff of Nin as well.

Vesuva: It's necessary, but it feels so bad to have a two land hand with this and either Cloudpost or, even worse, City of Traitors. Perhaps cutting a fourth Vesuva for a 1-of utility land or another artifact would be correct?


Blightsteel: I'm also in a love-hate relationship with this guy. I've killed plenty of people by Forging him out but sometimes it feels really bad to draw him/inappropriate to tutor for him (StP, Phantasmal Image even.) I played a list without him last night and felt fine with it.

Staff: I feel the same about Staff as I do about Blightsteel. It could be a fine mana sink in the Post lists though.

Wurmcoil: I've never played more than 3. I'm a very strong believer of Steel Hellkite.

Vesuva: Ever kept a hand of Vesuva + City of Traitors on the play? I really don't know if having the full set of 12 is correct so I cut down to 11. So far its been working perfectly fine.

Also: I do not know about the Mox Diamonds. It seems a little counter intuitive with all the Loci you're trying to put into play, and it's even worse when you have Trinisphere out. I don't know if it's worth the possibility of the extra turn 1 boost or not. I could be wrong.

Had my worst performance with the deck last night. I finally tried out the Tangle Wires and they're just fantastic against a good number of decks (couldn't do nothin' about Dredge though... sigh). I have 4 Chalice 3 Trinispheres main and 2 Thorns in the SB. With huge mana sources like powered Loci and Metalworker, it's not uncommon you get to do unfair things while you're opponent is playing draw-go under Wires, Spheres, cups, and Lodestones. I ran Forge-less, and I wonder if that was incorrect. I had plenty of extra lock pieces lying around and felt that they should have turned into Sundering Titans or something like that.

[Zorker]

in a 12post list how mnany tanglewire should be optimal?

[kingofethanol]

Three to four, depending on your build. Mine was a little threat light, I'm going to have to tinker with my list tonight.

[apple713]

Very rough list of what i wanted to test. Some thoughts about this deck

With sphere and thorns i don't miss trinisphere. Spheres / thorns are better in multiples than trinispheres.
12 post lands generate enough mana to play around spheres and thorns.
Chalice was originally not it the deck and only in the SB.
I'm considering taking it back out in favor of Goblin welder. If I did that I'd want to drop some city's / tombs / wastelands for mountains / great furnace.
wasteland is good only for locking the opponent out with crucible and might not be the best option here.
tangle wire in many cases is a time walk for 1-3 turns.
I wish i could play 16 lodestone golems. Since I can't i put in metamorphs
Forgemaster may have a home in here as well as batter skull.
all is dust is terrible with spheres / thorns
because the spheres / thorns slow the opponent down, it means that you don't have to be as explosive. This means you can cut metal worker / monolith for consistency.


I'll add more thoughts later.

4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Mox Opal
4 Wurmcoil Engine

2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Bottled Cloister
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Steel Hellkite
3 All Is Dust <--- not good with spheres / thorns
3 Chalice of the Void

4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost

[(nameless one)]

in a 12post list how mnany tanglewire should be optimal?

In my current playtesting 4. Though that dances down to 3 sometimes as I don't wanna see it in my opening hand. Its great in multiples mid-late game, though I also run a couple of Metamorphs.


Very rough list of what i wanted to test. Some thoughts about this deck

With sphere and thorns i don't miss trinisphere. Spheres / thorns are better in multiples than trinispheres.
12 post lands generate enough mana to play around spheres and thorns.
Chalice was originally not it the deck and only in the SB.
I'm considering taking it back out in favor of Goblin welder. If I did that I'd want to drop some city's / tombs / wastelands for mountains / great furnace.
wasteland is good only for locking the opponent out with crucible and might not be the best option here.
tangle wire in many cases is a time walk for 1-3 turns.
I wish i could play 16 lodestone golems. Since I can't i put in metamorphs
Forgemaster may have a home in here as well as batter skull.
all is dust is terrible with spheres / thorns
because the spheres / thorns slow the opponent down, it means that you don't have to be as explosive. This means you can cut metal worker / monolith for consistency.


I'll add more thoughts later.

4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Mox Opal
4 Wurmcoil Engine

2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Bottled Cloister
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Steel Hellkite
3 All Is Dust <--- not good with spheres / thorns
3 Chalice of the Void

4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost

If your running a couple of Crucible, why not have Mox Diamond instead of Opal. You can discard an opening hand Vesuva when you only have Sol Lands.

Also if you're planing on cutting Chalice, why not replace All is Dust with Ratchet Bomb/Powder Keg. It's great in taking down anything that comes before any of your resistors.

[Zorker]

since i've got 5 free slots - 3 tanglewire, leaves me 2 slots open.

Likely candidates: 1 steel hellkite, 1 myr battlesphere

[Wilkin]

Tried out the 12 post Version of MUD at a small tournament.....observations.

-Blightsteel does kinda suck drawing it but it literally won me games via Forgemaster. Actually accounted for almost all my wins.
-Only played one Steel Hellkite and wished I had more. The thing with the deck is it has many lock pieces and that's great. But once something lands, it's probably gonna stay on board. With Hellkite I managed to kill 2 Dark Confidants and 1 Pyromancer. Again, probably a playstyle choice wanting removal, since I'm usually a Deadguy Ale/Junk kind of player but Hellkite was awesome.
-Sundering Titan was ok, but not great. How do you guys find it? Also, when I could tutor with Forgemaster, the card I got by far was Blightsteel Colossus. I compare it to Elves.....in terms of Natural Order. At one point, Elf decks had Craterhoof Behemoth and Regal Force as the big tutor targets (and sometimes Progenitus). Drawing a ton of cards is good obviously but Overrun for the win is usually better. I like blowing up lands but getting the Colossus I found to be the better option.
-I didn't care about opposing wasteland for the most part. Which is nice. If anything, it sets them back which is more awesome.
-I also didn't care too much that Metalworker gets killed on site. At some points in testing, a single Cloudpost taps for 5 mana.

What card draw do you guys like? Staff of Domination? Staff of Nin? Bottled Cloister? I found often that I was in Top deck mode. LOL, I even looked up on Gatherer for other options. Best I could come up with is Mind's Eye, a card only played in Commander. But hey, if your opponent Brainstorms or uses Sylvan Library, you draw 3 cards. :D

[Cacks]

What card draw do you guys like? Staff of Domination? Staff of Nin? Bottled Cloister? I found often that I was in Top deck mode. LOL, I even looked up on Gatherer for other options. Best I could come up with is Mind's Eye, a card only played in Commander. But hey, if your opponent Brainstorms or uses Sylvan Library, you draw 3 cards. :D

Temporal aperture?

[Just me]

Temporal aperture?

Maybe Dreamstone Hedrone?

[(nameless one)]

@ Hellkite is also awesome because it can be used as a mana sink. There's something about swinging with 10/5 flying guy that can nuke your opponent's board.

@ Draw engine you probably don't need one. Just keep playing resistors. Sure you can't dig through your library but your opponent still can't cast anything.

@ Wilkin: do you play at Friendly Troll at North York?

[Wilkin]

@ Hellkite is also awesome because it can be used as a mana sink. There's something about swinging with 10/5 flying guy that can nuke your opponent's board.

@ Draw engine you probably don't need one. Just keep playing resistors. Sure you can't dig through your library but your opponent still can't cast anything.

@ Wilkin: do you play at Friendly Troll at North York?

Yeah I sometimes play there. It's great, get to try out new Legacy decks.

Adding a 2nd Staff of Domination, and making it only 3 Forgemasters. I find 4 is a bit much considering none of the lands in my build are artifacts (trying the 12 post version). But I really like the fact opposing wastelands aren't much of an issue.

[apple713]

Tried out the 12 post Version of MUD at a small tournament.....und to be the better

What card draw do you guys like? Staff of Domination? Staff of Nin? Bottled Cloister? I found often that I was in Top deck mode. LOL, I even looked up on Gatherer for other options. Best I could come up with is Mind's Eye, a card only played in Commander. But hey, if your opponent Brainstorms or uses Sylvan Library, you draw 3 cards. :D

Bottled cloister is best. You dont really wanna play cards that draw you more cards unless you have nothing else to play. So this is the perfect xhoice for an empty hand. The draw back is irrelevnt because the deck doesnt play instants. Typically you just play your hand out so theres nothing to exile at eot. The other options are more mana intensive. I think 2-3 is the right number because you want to draw one but only after youve emptied your hand. If you want a digging card sdt is available but not great cause there are no shuffle effects.

[kingofethanol]

Very rough list of what i wanted to test. Some thoughts about this deck

With sphere and thorns i don't miss trinisphere. Spheres / thorns are better in multiples than trinispheres.
12 post lands generate enough mana to play around spheres and thorns.
Chalice was originally not it the deck and only in the SB.
I'm considering taking it back out in favor of Goblin welder. If I did that I'd want to drop some city's / tombs / wastelands for mountains / great furnace.
wasteland is good only for locking the opponent out with crucible and might not be the best option here.
tangle wire in many cases is a time walk for 1-3 turns.
I wish i could play 16 lodestone golems. Since I can't i put in metamorphs
Forgemaster may have a home in here as well as batter skull.
all is dust is terrible with spheres / thorns
because the spheres / thorns slow the opponent down, it means that you don't have to be as explosive. This means you can cut metal worker / monolith for consistency.


I'll add more thoughts later.

4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Mox Opal
4 Wurmcoil Engine

2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Bottled Cloister
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Steel Hellkite
3 All Is Dust <--- not good with spheres / thorns
3 Chalice of the Void

4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost

Very interesting iteration, I might be willing to try this out.

DnT looks like it could be this list's worst nightmare. It seems like they can shut off your plan with Wastes, Ports, and Thalias. Considering DnT runs mostly creatures, all your Thorns/Spheres may end up taxing you more than they tax your opponent. Playing around those would involve having around 3 Loci, which would involve first drawing them and then having them not be Wasted.
I don't know about the AIDs in this list. If you're plan A (taxing people out) is successful, I don't see much value in casting what could be an expensive "spot removal" card. Perhaps you can cut them for some Forgemasters?
I feel more comfortable running more threats. Having 16 Lodestones would be quite nice...

[fogxanic]

Hello. I played almost same list than Wayne Polimine. http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/61418

Differences:

-1 Trinisphere
-1 Tormod's Crypt
-1 Spine of Ish Sah
-1 All Is Dust

+1 Steel Hellkite
+1 Faerie Macabre
+1 Duplicant
+1 Summoning Trap

So the tournament had 13 players. I went 4-0.
G1 vs. All spells 2-1
I won the dice and knew what he was playing so mulled to 5 and played first turn A. tomb, monolith to trinisphere that was a game. He started and won at T1 I think I kept hand like T1 metalworker or something. Third game and I was on play keep 7 and have chalice @ 0. Few turn we draw more cards and I put trini + lodestone online and he scooped.
G2 vs. Jund 2-1
I played quick wurmcoil and it was too much for him. Second game he wasted my land and I left at 2 mana and lose to confidant and loam + waste. Third game I play T3 staff of nin and shoot his confidant later sundering titan comes and destroys his 3 lands GG.
G3 vs. imperial painter 2-0
I put T2 trinisphere and he had only 2 mana + welder I just attack with something for win. Second match he puts T1 blood moon. I just start playing mountains and put chalice @ 0 and 1 online. He cast recruiter and find Viashino Heretic! I draw 4 th land and put lodestone and hope he doesnt have 4th land. After 2 turns he put it on play but on my turn I draw Karn and exile his viashino and win soon later.
G4 vs. BUG delver 2-0
Game 1 my second wurmcoil resolves and wins game against his tombstalker. Game 2 is very slow he has tarmo shamans etc. I get batterskull and hit some metalworkers and golems on board and equip them. Finally he runs out of removal and my metalworker with batterskull and Karn finish the game.

Opinions:
-Hard to get 3 artifacts for forgemaster but its still very scary creature
-Superior manabase compared to old mud stompy shell
-Turn one on draw is very weak against oops all spells but I dont think that more faerie macabres are needed against that minor deck - just win the dice lol

[kingofethanol]

Opinions:
-Hard to get 3 artifacts for forgemaster but its still very scary creature
-Superior manabase compared to old mud stompy shell
-Turn one on draw is very weak against oops all spells but I dont think that more faerie macabres are needed against that minor deck - just win the dice lol

Congratulations on the finish, fogxanic!

-I've had either had the full set, three, or no Forgemasters in the 75. My current list may have a few spaces, I might sneak just two or so in to filter through redundant lock pieces.
-Agreed. I haven't faced enough Wasteland decks, but for the few times that I have it hasn't been much of a problem.
-Yeah, this deck doesn't have much game against turn-0 combo decks, but they usually represent a small portion of the field anyway. Dice roll definitely wins you this game.

Questions/other thoughts:
-Has Lightning Greaves fallen out of favor? I feel about Greaves the same way I feel about Blightsteel: sometimes its amazing, sometimes it's just a do-nothing rock. It's such a good card in the fair match ups - it's great to have an early hastened Metalworker or a protected Wurm/Dragon late game. What are the theories you guys have on this?
-I like the idea of Staff of Nin, but I'm having a hard time justifying space for it. One copy is pretty solid against DnT, two in play is practically having the Punishing Grove combo (obviously easier to assemble with Forgemaster). Are people playing this in their 75, and if so, how many and where?

[fogxanic]

Congratulations on the finish, fogxanic!

-I've had either had the full set, three, or no Forgemasters in the 75. My current list may have a few spaces, I might sneak just two or so in to filter through redundant lock pieces.
-Agreed. I haven't faced enough Wasteland decks, but for the few times that I have it hasn't been much of a problem.
-Yeah, this deck doesn't have much game against turn-0 combo decks, but they usually represent a small portion of the field anyway. Dice roll definitely wins you this game.

Questions/other thoughts:
-Has Lightning Greaves fallen out of favor? I feel about Greaves the same way I feel about Blightsteel: sometimes its amazing, sometimes it's just a do-nothing rock. It's such a good card in the fair match ups - it's great to have an early hastened Metalworker or a protected Wurm/Dragon late game. What are the theories you guys have on this?
-I like the idea of Staff of Nin, but I'm having a hard time justifying space for it. One copy is pretty solid against DnT, two in play is practically having the Punishing Grove combo (obviously easier to assemble with Forgemaster). Are people playing this in their 75, and if so, how many and where?

Staff of nin is usually good if opponent doesnt play counters, even spell piece hits it. I have a lot of problems agaisnt junk/the rock because they have stops, teeq and qasali. Teeq just disables staff of nin and karn even chalice. Propably very good against uw miracles if resolves.

[Alex Holland]

I do not approve of the direction this thread is going. Seems everbody just jumps on the latest thing. Or maybe i am just an old skool MUD player, i like to nutralise their threads then overpower them with raw force. Thats fun. Thats why i play MUD. And i find this list to be optimal:

4#Chalice of the Void
4#Lodestone Golem
3#Ratchet Bomb

4#Grim Monolith
4#Metalworker
3#Thran Dynamo

3#Phyrexian Metamorph
3#Phyrexian Revoker
3#Steel Hellkite
4#Wurmcoil Engine

4#Ancient Tomb
4#City of Traitors
4#Cavern of Souls
4#Mishra’s Factory
2#Rishadan Port
4#Wasteland

3#Karn Liberated

/ sideboard

2#Crucible of Worlds
3#Tormod’s Crypt
1#Ratchet Bomb
4#Trinisphere
2#All Is Dust
3#Faerie Macabre

Observations:
*ratchet bombs should be main always. A 2 mana kill spell artifact? That kills delvers free? That kills a board full of dredge zombies? Affinity critters swarming? a weapon that wipes te board of THE most played creatures in legacy? Hell yeah. not putting them main is crazy. They are as good as chalice.

*Metamorph is nice. Copying lodestone t3 feels so good. Plus it kills show and tells emrakul decks. Now thats value for 3 mana. 3 is a good number in mud since it fits nice in the mana curve.

*Steel hellkite is a good boy. If they dont kill him instantly he puts them on a clock plus provides a way to remove pesky cards.


Did a little tournament yesterday and kept notes for you (3-0):

BG combo elves 2-0

First game he drops forest and passes. I drop chalice @ 1 of ancient tomb and t2 i put revoker on his quirion ranger. T3 i drop another land into thran dynamo into metalworker. I overpower him with fatties.
Second game he start with pithing needle on metalworker. Wich isnt even in my hand. Metalworker is a great distraction to everyone! I drop another chalice @ 1. He drops deathrite shaman, sentinel and a bayou. I get out a lodestone then waste the bayou. He manages another sentinel of deathrite but next turn i drop another lodestone, followed by a hellkite. He tries to cheat in a symbiote i point to both lodestones… he gives up! :tongue:

Some Black deck? 2-1

He starts with inquisition of kozilek from a swamp. He chooses ratchet bomb. My only cheap card. I do have 2 mishras in hand wich are valuable i guess against heavy discard, wich he doesnt have as i am soon to find out. I drop one factory, he drops bloodghast. I hope to get a lodestone out but he wasteland one factory. He plays a senseis top wich surprises me. I have ratchet out on 1 but decide to keep it a little longer. He drop tombstalker.. i play metalworker hoping to race him with a wurm in my hand. Then he drops liliana and i give up.

Second game i drop traitors into chalice. He does nothing. Then i go for metalworker with cavern. Could have played a second traitors into lodestone would probaly have been better. It sticks as he plays a bitterblossom? I realise maybe this isnt pox after all. I metalwork into a wurm and a second metalworker. Good thing as he drops liliana, i sac the tapped metalworker next turn i play lodestone kill liliana. He plays another liliana and now has 2 faeries. I attack with wurm lodestone and a mishras factory wich he didnt expect. He still makes it hard by dropping tombstalker, i am at 38 life by now thanks to wurm. Then i drop metamorph into another wurm. I attack to get to 51 life while he slowely dies of bitterblossom he scoops.

Third he goed swamp into top. I go tomb into monolith. I have metalworker but decide to play it safe and go for thran dynamo next turn. He uses pithing needle on my monolith. Next turn i drop traitors into dynamo into metalworker. He innocents bloods my metalworker. Wich doesnt matter because with thran im on 7 mana anyway. He gets another needle on dynamo. Suddenly i realise needle doesnt do SHIT against mana abilities!!! Quickly drop wurmcoil. Dont care about his bloodghast because also drop chalice at 2. He counters with a tombstalker. I dont care i drop liberated and exiles it. He still wont bow down. He drops another liliana against wurmcoil wich well doesnt do muchof course. Next turn i attack for 6 get him down to 1 exile his only card with karn then play all is dust to kill liliana. GG.

Affinity 2-1

Game 1 he plays first and i lose fast. Ratchet bomb helps out yet he swarms me, i only draw lands. Affinity is problematic for my deck but it does seems fair since it doesnt run counters or removal spells. This itteration does has some duress, or maybe this is normal? :confused:

Second game i know he doesnt play removal or counters so i just gogogogo. Tomb into monolith into metalworker into steel hellkite and a wurmcoil. He scoops.

Third game he opens with 2 0 mana creatures and a mox opal. I play tomb into ratchet bomb and nuke his side. He keeps playing that (blue affinity) free card draw spell so i keep facing hordes of pests. Totally unfair card advantage for him. Finally i get a hellkite out together with a trinisphere. He drops a few cards and i point to the trinisphere telling him he cant do that. He realise i will blow up his team with hellkite and scoops.

[CaptainTwiddle]

*Metamorph is nice. Copying lodestone t3 feels so good. Plus it kills show and tells emrakul decks. Now thats value for 3 mana. 3 is a good number in mud since it fits nice in the mana curve.

Umm...Metamorph isn't really that good against Shown and Tell. Phyrexian Metamorph enters the battlefield as a copy of a creature or artifact already on the battlefied. As such, it cannot copy an Emrakul (or anything else) that is put into play at the same time as it with a Show and Tell. This is different then Duplicant, for example, which has an ability which triggers upon entering the battlefield. It's the same reason why you can put Phyrexian Revoker into play off of a Shown and Tell and name Griselbrand or Sneak Attack to prevent the activated abilities of the card the opponent just put into play; since you name the card "as Phyrexian Revoker enters the battlefield," there is no trigger, no passing of priority, and no opportunity for the opponent to respond.

Anyway, Metamorph seems fine, as additional Lodestone Golems sounds great, but I just wanted to make sure it was clear what they can and can't do.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I think you are wrong about that metamorph ruling.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[CaptainTwiddle]

I think you are wrong about that metamorph ruling.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

From Gatherer rulings for Phyrexian Metamorph: 6/1/2011 - If Phyrexian Metamorph somehow enters the battlefield at the same time as another permanent (due to Mass Polymorph or Liliana Vess's third ability, for example), Phyrexian Metamorph can't become a copy of that permanent. You may only choose a permanent that's already on the battlefield.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

And that's what I get for thinking...

Anyway, there are two builds of MUD. Combo and Stompy. Kuldotha brought a new element to this Archetype that it actually probably needed. My buddy and I threw a Staff of Domination/Stuffy Doll combo in and are preparing for testing. I will be playing tempo and midrange for the prominent parts of the tests, and if all goes well I plan to test the heavy control matchup as well. I will be playing UWR Delver, Esper Stoneblade and DeathBlade. The heavy control will be UW and UWR Miracles. It's finals week so testing won't commence for about a week, but after that I will be heavily involved with the testing and will leave my findings on this thread for discussion and debate.

-ABC

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Alex Holland]

Umm...Metamorph isn't really that good against Shown and Tell. Phyrexian Metamorph enters the battlefield as a copy of a creature or artifact already on the battlefied. As such, it cannot copy an Emrakul (or anything else) that is put into play at the same time as it with a Show and Tell. This is different then Duplicant, for example, which has an ability which triggers upon entering the battlefield. It's the same reason why you can put Phyrexian Revoker into play off of a Shown and Tell and name Griselbrand or Sneak Attack to prevent the activated abilities of the card the opponent just put into play; since you name the card "as Phyrexian Revoker enters the battlefield," there is no trigger, no passing of priority, and no opportunity for the opponent to respond.

Anyway, Metamorph seems fine, as additional Lodestone Golems sounds great, but I just wanted to make sure it was clear what they can and can't do.

Well if its in your hand and someone plays emrakul you can copy it in your turn. Awesome.

[astormbrewing]

Well if its in your hand and someone plays emrakul you can copy it in your turn. Awesome.

So you'll have an Emrakul and they'll have an Emrakul. They'll attack before you can, making you sac 6 permanents and forcing you to block with your Emrakul (if you haven't sacrificed it). So, no, that doesn't sound awesome.

[Esper3k]

So you'll have an Emrakul and they'll have an Emrakul. They'll attack before you can, making you sac 6 permanents and forcing you to block with your Emrakul (if you haven't sacrificed it). So, no, that doesn't sound awesome.

^This.

I think the best use of Metamorph is copying your own stuff, not your opponent's (although copying a SFM and getting your own Batterskull would be pretty hot).

[Alex Holland]

So you'll have an Emrakul and they'll have an Emrakul. They'll attack before you can, making you sac 6 permanents and forcing you to block with your Emrakul (if you haven't sacrificed it). So, no, that doesn't sound awesome.

Well ur list wouldnt stand a change indeed. 12 post lands are slow to rebuild. You dont run 3 karns to exile anything Yes you would be in trouble lol.

[Alex Holland]

^This.

I think the best use of Metamorph is copying your own stuff, not your opponent's (although copying a SFM and getting your own Batterskull would be pretty hot).

I run him for 3 weeks, 99% of the time its a lodestone or a wurmcoil. 3 mana wurmcoil is nice!

Id imagine i would be copying more tarmogoyfs but it never happened..

[apple713]

I run him for 3 weeks, 99% of the time its a lodestone or a wurmcoil. 3 mana wurmcoil is nice!

Id imagine i would be copying more tarmogoyfs but it never happened..

Or hes a grisselbrand/ emrakul

[Wilkin]

Will try out a list similar to Alex Holland's list. I found that I sided in Ratchet Bomb a lot. Might as well be maindeck if it's sided in almost 100% of the time.

And as much as I like the mana Cloudpost can give.....a bit slow vs the Delver decks, especially on the draw.
Turn 1 they cast Delver.
Your turn you play Cloudpost go....
Turn 2 they flip delver and waste your land. Boo urns.

Also with a lot of MUD lists not running artifact lands, I sometimes find it hard for Forgemaster to be able to tutor. I also found Sundering titan to be a bit meh. When I could tutor for something, it was usually Blightsteel Colossus. On occasion it was Staff of Domination.

[CaptainTwiddle]

...I also found Sundering titan to be a bit meh. When I could tutor for something, it was usually Blightsteel Colossus. On occasion it was Staff of Domination.

I've had the same experience with Sundering Titan, but I'm really glad to have it available when I have the green light to Forgemaster, but they're telegraphing Swords to Plowshares. While only so-so against Stoneblade (UW), Titan is pretty solid against Esperblade and BRUTAL against Deathblade (also UWr Delver); it enters play, nukes their lands, they Swords it, it nukes what is left of their lands, and it's too large for them to handle with anything other than Swords.

[Alex Holland]

I've had the same experience with Sundering Titan, but I'm really glad to have it available when I have the green light to Forgemaster, but they're telegraphing Swords to Plowshares. While only so-so against Stoneblade (UW), Titan is pretty solid against Esperblade and BRUTAL against Deathblade (also UWr Delver); it enters play, nukes their lands, they Swords it, it nukes what is left of their lands, and it's too large for them to handle with anything other than Swords.

All aggro decks we face, regardless of what we are running, die if they cant use swords. Our threads are too big and outrun them (wurmcoil). So that chalice @1 is nice but if you have a way of taking out their white mana thats fine too. Mana denial is the best protection. Last GP almost every top16 deck ran 3 colors!
Pro to titan is that it is tutorable, if you run forgemaster of course. Since i dont im dependant on wasteland to back up chalice against swords. And karn of course. Hes the biggest land destructor in legacy a not too known fact :tongue:

[Airwave]

Will try out a list similar to Alex Holland's list. I found that I sided in Ratchet Bomb a lot. Might as well be maindeck if it's sided in almost 100% of the time.

And as much as I like the mana Cloudpost can give.....a bit slow vs the Delver decks, especially on the draw.
Turn 1 they cast Delver.
Your turn you play Cloudpost go....
Turn 2 they flip delver and waste your land. Boo urns.

Also with a lot of MUD lists not running artifact lands, I sometimes find it hard for Forgemaster to be able to tutor. I also found Sundering titan to be a bit meh. When I could tutor for something, it was usually Blightsteel Colossus. On occasion it was Staff of Domination.

I noticed the same actually. I sided in Ratchet Bomb all the time. So I decided to play two of them main now. It's also nice against the new nameless merfolk dude.

[Alex Holland]

Am i the only who feels like thran dynamo is metalworker 5/6/7/8?
If its out i can play anything i want, plus its harder to remove then worker wich often catches removal instantly!

[CaptainTwiddle]

Am i the only who feels like thran dynamo is metalworker 5/6/7/8?
If its out i can play anything i want, plus its harder to remove then worker wich often catches removal instantly!

Thran Dynamo is a card that I've really debated over. I agree that it acts as a psuedo Metalworker that dodges most removal, but as a 4cmc artifact, I had a hard time working it into the deck. You can't really count it as a mana source, but it's not really anything other than that. I think Dynamo gains some value if you're not running Voltaic Key. I mean, obviously, Dynamo combos well with Key, but the point is that Key makes your Grim Monoliths more powerful. So, basically, where I find myself is thinking that I'd like to run 1-2 Dynamo, but I don't know what I'd cut for them.

[Alex Holland]

Thran Dynamo is a card that I've really debated over. I agree that it acts as a psuedo Metalworker that dodges most removal, but as a 4cmc artifact, I had a hard time working it into the deck. You can't really count it as a mana source, but it's not really anything other than that. I think Dynamo gains some value if you're not running Voltaic Key. I mean, obviously, Dynamo combos well with Key, but the point is that Key makes your Grim Monoliths more powerful. So, basically, where I find myself is thinking that I'd like to run 1-2 Dynamo, but I don't know what I'd cut for them.

It gives 3 mana each turn without crap. So what does this mean? It means that i cast it from lands next turn i have 7 mana. Wich is my magic number for dropping karn liberated or all is dust. Plus it taps instantly so at least youll have 3 mana to use while u wait for the next turn; wich means revoker/trinisphere/metamorph/metalworker/all kind of things. I actually LOVE metalworker. If he sticks i can drop my hand but mostly he just attracts their removal opening the next turn for my game winning hellkites and wurmcoils. Love them thran dynamos!

[CaptainTwiddle]

It gives 3 mana each turn without crap. So what does this mean? It means that i cast it from lands next turn i have 7 mana. Wich is my magic number for dropping karn liberated or all is dust. Plus it taps instantly so at least youll have 3 mana to use while u wait for the next turn; wich means revoker/trinisphere/metamorph/metalworker/all kind of things. I actually LOVE metalworker. If he sticks i can drop my hand but mostly he just attracts their removal opening the next turn for my game winning hellkites and wurmcoils. Love them thran dynamos!

I agree that Thran Dynamo is much more appealing in versions with Karn and All Is Dust. Most of my MUD experience is with the Red/Welder build.

[DJ Catchem]

I’ve been attacking this deck from a different angle as of late.* If the deck is designed to be a combo deck that protects itself with prison effects, what’s the point in trying to win fairly by attacking with Wurmcoils/Hellkites?* I’d rather just try to disrupt and win.
*
The thought process is to just max the Staff of Domination/Metalworker combo, and include a way to primarily win instantly with the mana, with Blightsteel as backup.* The slots gained in pulling out the aggro component can be leveraged to add in more early prison components.
*
The rough testing list:
Lands: 20
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Crystal Vein
4 Wasteland
4 Darksteel Citadel
*
Creatures: 13
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Blightsteel Colossus
*
Spells: 27
4 Grim Monolith
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Staff of Domination
1 All is Dust
1 Spine of Ish Sah
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Goblin Cannon
*
The breakdown and interactions:
*
This build maximizes the ability to land turn-one disruption by running eight two-cost disruptors (Chalice and Thorn), with the potential to still land a Metalworker or Trinisphere off of Monolith.* The extra Sol-land (Crystal)* sacrifice downside is mitigated by running Crucible main, which also opens up the Crucible/Wasteland lock avenue.
*
From there, the deck will continue to lay on prison pressure (Trinisphere and Lodestone) before going straight for the Metalworker/Staff of Domination combo via natural draw or Forgemaster for the missing piece.* From there, Goblin Cannon provides an instant win with the infinite mana, with the Blightsteel backup/secondary.* Top provides needed card draw/filtering, with All is dust to clear any problematic permanents and Spine in case of Revoker/Needle.
*
It’s raw and unturned, but it seems to goldfish well so far.* Thoughts on the direction?

---DJ
*

[kingtk3]

I like the goblin cannon as a mean to instantly kill with the metalworker/staff combo (I suggested rocket launcher myself same pages back).
However your configuration seems particularly vulnerable to delver decks since you don't have the means to outrace them (if you are pressured and need to go off without protection they will counter your key spell, or if you spend time to lay resistors you may not survive).

The problem with the stax-like approach is that is weak against aggro, which is quite common in legacy. If you like to play stax-like you need a way to control the board or something that ignores what your opponent may have played before you have locked them out: that is the role of wurmcoil.

[Airwave]

I like the goblin cannon as a mean to instantly kill with the metalworker/staff combo (I suggested rocket launcher myself same pages back).
However your configuration seems particularly vulnerable to delver decks since you don't have the means to outrace them (if you are pressured and need to go off without protection they will counter your key spell, or if you spend time to lay resistors you may not survive).

The problem with the stax-like approach is that is weak against aggro, which is quite common in legacy. If you like to play stax-like you need a way to control the board or something that ignores what your opponent may have played before you have locked them out: that is the role of wurmcoil.

Could you please explain the use of Goblin Cannon when:

I have a billion life, a billion colorless mana, can draw my entire deck, my opponents creature tap immediately after being untapped.

Furthermore:
My opponent loses a land (waste)
My opponent loses a pesky permanent (spine)
My opponent pays 4 extra mana for non-artifacts (lodestone)
My opponent's spells of converted mana cost 1,2,3 and 4 are countered (chalice)
My opponent's colored permanents are wiped off the board (all is dust)

So my question is: Why do you need Goblin Cannon...?

[kingtk3]

Could you please explain the use of Goblin Cannon when:

I have a billion life, a billion colorless mana, can draw my entire deck, my opponents creature tap immediately after being untapped.

Furthermore:
My opponent loses a land (waste)
My opponent loses a pesky permanent (spine)
My opponent pays 4 extra mana for non-artifacts (lodestone)
My opponent's spells of converted mana cost 1,2,3 and 4 are countered (chalice)
My opponent's colored permanents are wiped off the board (all is dust)

So my question is: Why do you need Goblin Cannon...?


There may be situations when your opponent can disrupt you if you give them a turn to play: Supreme verdict is a card after all.
I think that for this situations, which still may be fringe cases , the option to immediately kill your opponent may be worth a MD slot.

[DJ Catchem]

I like the goblin cannon as a mean to instantly kill with the metalworker/staff combo (I suggested rocket launcher myself same pages back).
However your configuration seems particularly vulnerable to delver decks since you don't have the means to outrace them (if you are pressured and need to go off without protection they will counter your key spell, or if you spend time to lay resistors you may not survive).

The problem with the stax-like approach is that is weak against aggro, which is quite common in legacy. If you like to play stax-like you need a way to control the board or something that ignores what your opponent may have played before you have locked them out: that is the role of wurmcoil.

It's a fair criticism, although the extra Sphere effect is designed to slow them up enough that you can get to critical mass. I'm typically doing this no later than turn five; if a Sphere effect lands turn one, it should provide the necessary time to get there, and if it doesn't, any additional effects become nearly must-counters, which should sap the Delver resources.

Considering it just wins once the pieces are in place, I'm not as concerned about Delver. Hand disruption seems like a worse threat to me. As does Elves...

[Alex Holland]

Goldfishing doesnt tell you much about a deck. Its a 2 player game after all.. :laugh:

What i want in my opening hand is a sol land, a extra land some accelation (monolith? metalworker? dynamo?) And some defense (chalice, revoker, lodestone). Everything on top of that is just graveyyy.

This afternoon went 1-2 against some RWU delver deck, but felt i did good anyway. game 1 i only drew mana.. game 2 i dropped lodestone t2 followed by a t3 lodestone clone of a cavern on shapeshifter. yeah blue b**** counter this. Game 3 kept dropping threads every turn it was crazy. Went lodestone, wurmcoil, karn liberated, hellkite... I only had the bad luck he had like 3 daze and 2 fow in a row to keep me from getting started. Should have checked his library afterwards come to think of it lol :confused:

[astormbrewing]

Playing in a local event this Saturday. I'll be running the following:

//Creatures
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Steel Hellkite
3 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Spellskite

//Other Spells
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
3 Trinisphere
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Karn Liberated
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Nin

//Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Wasteland
3 Vesuva

//Sideboard
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 All is Dust
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Witchbane Orb
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Wurmcoil Engine

I'll report back Saturday night/Sunday on my results and how the list feels.

[kingtk3]

Why the spellskites maindeck?

Sent from my mobile, forgive me for grammar errors.

[Alex Holland]

1 karn is totally random..

Anything 1 off is totally random. U could draw it. Sometimes. But luck aint a thrustworty friend.

[kingtk3]

I don't like 1 of in a deck that can't tutor and got no manipulation, but if they accomplish the same role I think it's fine.

In this case they are essentially removals, but between the 3 karn it's the best, so I'd play 2 of it instead of the spine which is an overpriced vindicate.

Sent from my mobile, forgive me for grammar errors.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I prefer spine to karn, especially as a singleton. You can tutor for spine, neutralize the threat and repeat next turn using spine. Can't do that with karn.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[CaptainTwiddle]

I prefer spine to karn, especially as a singleton. You can tutor for spine, neutralize the threat and repeat next turn using spine. Can't do that with karn.

I agree with this, but I believe the list that is being discussed (see above) doesn't include Kuldotha Forgemaster.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Oh...that's terrible. But I digress.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[astormbrewing]

I went 1-3 yesterday. I ended up settling on the following list:

//Creatures
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Steel Hellkite
4 Wurmcoil Engine

//Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Nin
2 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Trinisphere

//Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Wasteland

//Sideboard
1 Silent Arbiter
1 Steel Hellkite
2 All Is Dust
1 Bottled Cloister
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Witchbane Orb

The deck felt good, and I like playing a more Sphere/Prison version than Forgemaster combo, but I had some tough game 3s.

Round 1 vs Dredge (2-0)
Not much to say about this match. Its easily winnable with all the Sphere effects. Game 1 I realized my opponent didn't know how to play Dredge. He binned Griselbrand, so I played a Revoker naming Griselbrand. Next turn he Dread Returns the Griselbrand, so I Metamorph it. He attacks and I block, killing them both. He says "I get my Bridge triggers" and I say "mine triggers your Bridge, too" and he just exiles them instead of stacking the triggers.

Sideboard: -1 Spine of Ish Sah -1 Staff of Nin -1 Metalworker -1 Grim Monolith -1 Chalice of the Voide -1 Phyrexian Revoker +3 Tormod's Crypt +1 Ratchet Bomb +2 Thorn of Amethyst

Round 2 vs Burn (1-2)
Sadly I couldn't find a Chalice in game 2/3 to turn off his Price of Progress. Game 3 I played Chalice on 1 and Witchbane Orb, but he played Sulfuric Vortex, making my Wurmcoil Engines and Glimmerposts worse. In the end, Price of Progress outraced Wurmcoil.

Sideboard: -1 Steel Hellkite -1 Phyrexian Revoker -1 Ratchet Bomb -1 Staff of Nin +2 Thorn of Amethyst +2 Witchbane Orb

Round 3 vs Lands (1-2)
Game 1 I got there with creatures. Game 2 he Abrupt Decayed my Chalice on 1 to Crop Rotation for Thespian's Stage and kill me (couldn't find a Wasteland). Game 3 I mulliganed to 4 and kept a no-lander (I don't think a mull to 3 is reasonable), so I died relatively quickly.

Sideboard: -3 Phyrexian Revoker -1 Staff of Nin +2 Spine of Ish Sah +2 Tormod's Crypt

Round 4 vs Bant (1-2)
And finally I play against True-Name Nemesis. Game 1 I lose to a TNN equipped with Batterskull. Game 2 I jump out of the gates with a T2 Metalworker and lay down double Wurmcoil and Steel Hellkite, so he scoops. Game 3 I can't race triple TNN and fail to find any of my several answers.

Sideboard: -2 Thorn of Amethyst -1 Staff of Nin -1 Metalworker +2 All is Dust +1 Ratchet Bomb +1 Steel Hellkite

Overall: I was pretty happy with the deck, but it needs work. Unfortunately, I just don't think this deck really fits my play style. I need the ability to draw more cards every turn, that's where I feel comfortable. Thus, I'm getting rid of the deck. Anyone need City of Traitors? Haha.

[Alex Holland]

City of traitors is a card u should keep. Reserved and heavy played in stompy builds too.

List is still bad to me. All the one offs hurt my eyes lol. Karn is so much better then spine. Why? It worka on itself. Multiple times with protection. Its a gg card.

Should have just added 3 ratchet bombs in the current meta. Wastelands good right now too.

How where those 2 spheres for you?

[nerv2004]

Hi all

Long time lurker, first time poster on the source (this primer>>> than MTG salvation's fyi).

I've picked up the mono brown prision style forgemaster combo deck, used by Greg Price http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=5957&d=234564

I've got a few questions. Firstly browsing the last few pages, it seems we have a lot of varied discussion regarding the optimum mud build. I understand this is nothing new (considering we have like 5-6 different versions), but should we start defining what style/ build we are discussing at the start of each post. for example: Mono Brown, prison style, forgemaster combo would to me describe Wayne Polimine's DC build http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/61418 where as Red MUD, with Welder and Forgemaster combo would describe Zic Hicks 1st place SCG deck from 2012 http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=2555&d=216596

Secondly, from my limited play testing, I was wondering what are the best sideboard options against a counter heavy (particularly Delver) meta? I've been experimenting with Defence Grid but I'm looking for more ammo, maybe thorn? Also what are everyone's thoughts on Karn Liberated in the main?

Lastly does anyone know of any streamers,deck techs or pro players who play MUD? Id love to see more of the deck and improve my game as its a tough one to play 100%.

I hope to contribute as much as I can to move this deck forward :D

[CaptainTwiddle]

...from my limited play testing, I was wondering what are the best sideboard options against a counter heavy (particularly Delver) meta?

It's kind of hard to say what the optimal sideboard choices are vs Delver (or anything else) if we don't know your maindeck. That being said, the one thing that most Delver decks have in common (other than the decks' namesake, of course) is a greedy mana base with few lands and a low curve. Chalice of the Void is probably the best weapon against them (a little less good against the UWR version because of Stoneforge Mystic, but it still blanks more than half of the deck).

I think the best approach against counter heavy decks with MUD is to just play as many "must counter" cards as possible and make good use of Cavern of Souls. I've sided in Bottled Cloister against Delver to good effect. If they counter it, that's one less counter for your real threats and if they let it resolve, they won't be able to keep up with your stream of threats. MUD makes enough mana that Daze and Spell Pierce aren't very relevant and Lightning Bolt doesn't kill any of your best threats outside of Lodestone Golem. Delver is also susceptible to Wasteland lock if you play Crucible of Worlds. Against UWR versions my go to fatty is Sundering Titan, as their only answer is Swords to Plowshares, but at that point, they've already lost their entire manabase, unless they held back some fetchlands. Trinisphere is potent against Delver decks, since their average mana cost is something like 1.5.

To be honest though, I didn't find Delver (at least RUG) to be all that difficult of a match. You have to be leary of their fastest starts and avoid making stupid plays (like activating Kuldotha Forgemaster only to have it Stifled), but the general plan is just to bait their counters or play Cavern of Souls and cast the one large threat that matters. Wurmcoil Engine trumps everything they have other than True-Name Nemesis, but Steel Hellkite and Blightsteel Colossus aren't phased by the Progeni-Fish.

[(nameless one)]

Playing this at the local store for a Christmas event in two days. I don't wanna post my list but I am set on my 57 cards. The last three are debatable.

Also, I'm still figuring out my sideboard. Wish me luck.

PS. I will update the primer soon to include "manuals" on how to play the 12post and the Welder lists once I get my Christmas vacation.

[nerv2004]

It's kind of hard to say what the optimal sideboard choices are vs Delver (or anything else) if we don't know your maindeck.

Im playing the Mono brown prison style greg price ran.


To be honest though, I didn't find Delver (at least RUG) to be all that difficult of a match. You have to be leary of their fastest starts and avoid making stupid plays (like activating Kuldotha Forgemaster only to have it Stifled), but the general plan is just to bait their counters or play Cavern of Souls and cast the one large threat that matters. Wurmcoil Engine trumps everything they have other than True-Name Nemesis, but Steel Hellkite and Blightsteel Colossus aren't phased by the Progeni-Fish.

cheers for the advice, I suppose we just need them to make "bad" counters. ill also test out Bottled Cloister as you suggested.


Playing this at the local store for a Christmas event in two days. I don't wanna post my list but I am set on my 57 cards. The last three are debatable.

Also, I'm still figuring out my sideboard. Wish me luck.

PS. I will update the primer soon to include "manuals" on how to play the 12post and the Welder lists once I get my Christmas vacation.

Goodluck! Cant wait to read your results. Also the manuals would be awesome. I remember first seeing the welder list and thinking "how does this work". I get it now but for others i would be really nice to read.

[Zorker]

thank you nameless one

[kingtk3]

Playing this at the local store for a Christmas event in two days. I don't wanna post my list but I am set on my 57 cards. The last three are debatable.

Also, I'm still figuring out my sideboard. Wish me luck.

PS. I will update the primer soon to include "manuals" on how to play the 12post and the Welder lists once I get my Christmas vacation.

Good luck!!!


@nerv2004:
chalice@1 and cavern of souls are your best strategy against delver decks, but remember that you need lifelink (wurmcoil and batterskull, not only one of the 2) or removal (ratchet bomb, powder keg, you name it) in your maindeck, otherwise a first turn delver can ride to victory since this deck hurts itself with tombs.
Other cards you may bring from the side, if you are not playing them already, are additional disruption (trinisphere, defense grid), protection (bottle cloister, spellskite), removal (razormane masticore, bomb/keg)

[CaptainTwiddle]

@nerv2004:
chalice@1 and cavern of souls are your best strategy against delver decks, but remember that you need lifelink (wurmcoil and batterskull, not only one of the 2) or removal (ratchet bomb, powder keg, you name it) in your maindeck, otherwise a first turn delver can ride to victory since this deck hurts itself with tombs.
Other cards you may bring from the side, if you are not playing them already, are additional disruption (trinisphere, defense grid), protection (bottle cloister, spellskite), removal (razormane masticore, bomb/keg)

I haven't tried out Batterskull in my MUD build yet, as I have a real love affair with Wurmcoil Engine and I like being able to use Cavern of Souls to potentially force through any of my creature threats. I can see it's merits, and I'll probably try it going forward at some point.

I have to say though, I'm really not a fan of Ratchet Bomb in MUD. I know a number of posters here swear by it, but I think there is just too much collateral damage, especially if we're talking about using it against Delver decks. Delver's threats have CMCs of 0-2. Ratcheting up to 2 counters is a significant time investment. Ratchet Bomb on 1 is probably the least harmful to MUD (assuming you're not on a Welder build or using too many Voltaic Keys), but it's also only really relevant against unflipped Delvers. Yes, it kills Nimble Mongoose, but all of our threats already trump the Goose. Lastly, while Ratchet on 0 kills flipped Delver (Insectile Aberration), it also blows up our own Chalices, Germ tokens, and Moxes.

[kingtk3]

I haven't tried out Batterskull in my MUD build yet, as I have a real love affair with Wurmcoil Engine and I like being able to use Cavern of Souls to potentially force through any of my creature threats. I can see it's merits, and I'll probably try it going forward at some point.

I have to say though, I'm really not a fan of Ratchet Bomb in MUD. I know a number of posters here swear by it, but I think there is just too much collateral damage, especially if we're talking about using it against Delver decks. Delver's threats have CMCs of 0-2. Ratcheting up to 2 counters is a significant time investment. Ratchet Bomb on 1 is probably the least harmful to MUD (assuming you're not on a Welder build or using too many Voltaic Keys), but it's also only really relevant against unflipped Delvers. Yes, it kills Nimble Mongoose, but all of our threats already trump the Goose. Lastly, while Ratchet on 0 kills flipped Delver (Insectile Aberration), it also blows up our own Chalices, Germ tokens, and Moxes.

I'm not saying to play batterskull instead of wurmcoil, but in addition to it. Wurmcoil is only weak against Stp and terminus, not batterskull. You can equip a metalworker in late game and it became a threat, costs 5 which fits perfectly the curve of the deck and plays wonderfully with Godo ;)

Ratchet Bomb is an answer to gaddock teeg, which stops the better removals (all is dust and karn mainly), but it has other applications too.

[Alex Holland]

I'm not saying to play batterskull instead of wurmcoil, but in addition to it. Wurmcoil is only weak against Stp and terminus, not batterskull. You can equip a metalworker in late game and it became a threat, costs 5 which fits perfectly the curve of the deck and plays wonderfully with Godo ;)

Ratchet Bomb is an answer to gaddock teeg, which stops the better removals (all is dust and karn mainly), but it has other applications too.

U still playing godo? I tried it sometime ago and i did liked the fact of 2 uncounterable threads true cavern at once. Then again red gives u the possibility to run blood moon wich is also gooood against greedy delver decks.
Still im comfortable with my colorless stompy atm unless ull post a list with some stunning results that is.

I love ratchet bomb. Its as important as chalice. Ull blow it at 0, 2 or 3. Sometimes a chalice or tappes monolith dies yes but it saves ur life by doing so! Ur l-i-f-e! Delver is a pesk flipped at t2. Ratchet bomb. Liliana whiping ur board? Ratchet bomb. Tarmogoyf outta control? Ratchet bomb. The thing is so useful how can someone not see it???

I used to play 8 big guns: 4 wurm 4 skull, however i now went 4 wurm 3 hellkite. I felt very vunerable against flyers and felt hellkite can block delver all day plus is another win conbif he sticks. I dont need life if i can kill his key pieces. Legit argument i think?

[kingtk3]

U still playing godo? I tried it sometime ago and i did liked the fact of 2 uncounterable threads true cavern at once. Then again red gives u the possibility to run blood moon wich is also gooood against greedy delver decks.
Still im comfortable with my colorless stompy atm unless ull post a list with some stunning results that is.

I love ratchet bomb. Its as important as chalice. Ull blow it at 0, 2 or 3. Sometimes a chalice or tappes monolith dies yes but it saves ur life by doing so! Ur l-i-f-e! Delver is a pesk flipped at t2. Ratchet bomb. Liliana whiping ur board? Ratchet bomb. Tarmogoyf outta control? Ratchet bomb. The thing is so useful how can someone not see it???

I used to play 8 big guns: 4 wurm 4 skull, however i now went 4 wurm 3 hellkite. I felt very vunerable against flyers and felt hellkite can block delver all day plus is another win conbif he sticks. I dont need life if i can kill his key pieces. Legit argument i think?

To be honest I have played other decks recently (reanimator, big red, turbo eldrazi...), but I'm thinking about building MUD again.
If I do, I'll probably play about 3 Godo for all the reasons above but also for fetching sword of fire and ice, aka your TNN is not a god-wall anymore: I have the feeling that with TNN they could stall the ground while attacking us with delver.

So I think that I want a number of ratchet bomb, steel hellkite, wurmcoil and batterskull in the maindeck because I like to diversify my threats.

I'll post a new list as soon as I'll have some free time, meanwhile I'll keep lurking ;)

[(nameless one)]

I played this deck to a 5-0 record.

I played against the following in rounds order:
Sneak&Show - 2-1
Dredge - 2-1
Merfolk - 2-1
U/W/R Delver - 2-1
Elves - 2-0

Will post more details later tonight or tomorrow when I am not busy.

[Alex Holland]

I played this deck to a 5-0 record.

I played against the following in rounds order:
Sneak&Show - 2-1
Dredge - 2-1
Merfolk - 2-1
U/W/R Delver - 2-0
Elves - 2-0

Will post more details later tonight or tomorrow when I am not busy.

Sneak show 2-1 is impressive! Aint much we can do against him except slow him down and race. Good job!

[whatwas]

I played this deck to a 5-0 record.

I played against the following in rounds order:
Sneak&Show - 2-1
Dredge - 2-1
Merfolk - 2-1
U/W/R Delver - 2-0
Elves - 2-0

Will post more details later tonight or tomorrow when I am not busy.

I am interested to see the report on this, for I am bringing Mud to scg in January.

Sent from my LGMS500 using Tapatalk

[(nameless one)]

I played this deck to a 5-0 record.

I played against the following in rounds order:
Sneak&Show - 2-1
Dredge - 2-1
Merfolk - 2-1
U/W/R Delver - 2-1
Elves - 2-0

Will post more details later tonight or tomorrow when I am not busy.

Correction, my U/W/r Delver matchup was 2-1

First the list:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Mishra's Factory
3 City of Traitors
3 Vesuva
3 Wasteland

4 Mox Diamond
3 Grim Monolith

4 Lodestone Golem
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
1 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Spellskite
2 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Duplicant
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Wurmcoil Engine

Match 1 - Sneak&Show

G1- Win the dice roll.*I mull to 6 after having an opening seven that I can't remember. My six was: 2 Chalice, 2 Tombs, a Mox and a Monolith.*

I resolved a Chalice at one. We both didn't do much throughout the game other than draw go after that. I eventually resolved a Revoker naming Jace, the Mind Sculptor. At this point I've only seen Zendikar blue fetches, a couple of Islands and discarded Ponders. I also resolved a Metamorph copying Revoker naming something I can't remember. I followed them up with multiple Spheres and he eventually scooped.*

G2 - I didn't use my sideboard because I have no idea what I'm against. Basically my main plan is to stick as much resistors as I can to slow him down long enough for my threats to clean up.*

I mulled a 6-lander seven into a risky six with City, Vesuva, Glimmerpost, Chalice and Tangle Wire. It was risky because if I don't draw into lands, I can lock myself out of the game if I keep casting my resistors.*

He goes for Gitaxian Probe, Volcanic Island, 2x Lotus Petal, Show and Tell. I cheated in a Glimmerpost while he cheated in an Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. I resolved a Tangle Wire on my turn hoping to buy me time. I drew two dead cards in my next turns and Emrakul did its thing.*

G3: Sideboard: -1 Hellkite, -1 Titan, -1 Wurmcoil, +2 Spine, +1 Duplicant

I kept my seven consisting of Mox, * Factory, Tomb, Vesuva, Sphere, Monolith and Forgemaster. I go for a turn one Sphere which he Force of Willed. On his turn one, he Ponders. I topdecked a Revoker the following turn and resolved it naming Lotus Petal hoping it will slow him down (Although I am not sure if I named the right card), along with Monolith. He goes for a turn two Show and Tell anyways with the help of his Sol land. I cheated in the Forgemaster while he cheated in Emrakul. On my turn, I resolve a topdecked Chalice at one, activated my Factory for my Forgemaster, activated my Forgemaster to cheat in Duplicant that ate his Eldrazi. My 15/15 Duplicant cleaned up with Sphere protection.*

Overall: I feel like I got lucky with this match as my main game plan is to just slow him down, which is sometimes is not enough as I do not have a means to deal with a resolved Show and Tell.*

Match 2 - Dredge

G1 - Lost the dice roll. I mull to 5 with Wasteland, City, Metamorph, Forgemaster and Tangle Wire.*

His turn one goes as rainbow land (I can't remember, not on notes), Faithless Looting, Lion's Eye Diamond (he didn't pop it) and ended his turn (which surprised me) with a couple of Dredgers in his yard. I topdecked a Chalice and went for it at one, risking getting locked out of the game with if I do not draw into lands. He slow-dredge into Ichorids and Narcomoebas and combo finished with zombies powered up by Flame-Kin Zealot.*

G2: Sideboard: +4 Crypt, +3 Bomb, +1 Hellkite, -4 Wire, -3 Revoker, -1 Titan

My opening seven was 2x Crypt, Cloudpost, Vesuva, Chalice, Metamorph and Crucible (I forgot to side it out).*

I played both my Crypts on my turn one to avoid Cabal Therapy (not sure if it was the right play). I forgot what he casted but I'm sure he tried baiting me to pull the trigger on the Crypts as he had tons of cards in the yard. He mulled into a couple of Narcomoebas but no Bridge from Belows and Ichorids. He then tried to slow dredge but I started building my board filled with Spheres and multiple Golems (both the Worldwake and Metamorph versions). I saw him drop Nature's Claim with the rest of his pile as he scooped.*

G3: Sideboard: -1 Crucible, +1 Wurmcoil

I kept a seven consisting of 4 lands (including two Sol lands), Mox, Sphere and Golem.*

He goes for a turn one Therapy naming Chalice. I go for a turn one Mox, Sol land and Sphere. My turn two was a second Sol land and a Golem. He watched me play *Magic for a bit before he scooped.*

Overall: He told me his game plan against me was to try to combo out before he got my lock pieces on. I asked him if he knew which hate I had, he just said that it's easy to play around Crypts. He also said he's certain that I was packing four Crypts because he knew I was running Chalice and saw the double Crypt on game two. I guess he got unlucky on game two.*

Match 3 - Merfolk

Game 1 - I lost the dice roll. I kept a slow seven with a couple of lands (one was Tomb), Monolith, Chalice, Wire and Metamorph.*

I get overwhelmed with Lord of Atlantises (most of them were Phantasmal Image copies) with a lot of permission protection. I tried baiting a permission with Monolith (which he did) but he had multiple Daze and FoWs.*

G2: Sideboard: -1 Titan, -4 Chalice, +1 Hellkite, + 1 Wurmcoil, +3 Bombs.*

My starting seven was 3 Sol lands, Mox, Bomb, Sphere and Golem.*

The game went as turn one Mox and Sphere, turn two Golem, turn three Revoker on AEther Vial, turn four Golem.*

G3: I kept my seven consisting of 2 Sol lands, Factory, Wire, Sphere, Revoker and a Golem.*

He goes for a turn one Vial. I tried to bait permission with Sphere which he bites. The reason for this is I want Revoker to resolve. My following turn was trying to resolve a Revoker with mana up for Daze. I was fine if he Forced it because this means he has less creatures in his hand. It resolved. I eventually chained Wire, Golem and more resistors on my following turns. Multiple Wires slowed him enough for Golem, Revoker and Factories to win the game.*

Match 4 - U/W/r Delver

G1: I win the dice roll. Kept my seven with Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, City, Sphere, Tangle Wire and Forgemaster.*

We both didn't do anything backbreaking on turn one. My turn two was a drawn Monolith and his was a Stoneforge Mystic for Batterskull. My turn three was Forgemaster with 3 mana from posts and a drawn Tomb. He tried to Daze but I think he was either baiting my Monolith or he forgotten about it. It resolved and used the leftover mana for a sphere. He cheated BSkull after and attacked with it next turn. I Tangle Wire the board to slow him down and before it was my turn, I sacrificed it to my Forgemaster along with the Monolith and an activated Factory for a Titan to wipe his lands out. On my turn, I attacked with the Titan through his tapped out field then reused Forgemaster to get Hellkite and destroy his remaining lands. Hellkite cleaned his board while it was under a Sphere and Chalice protection.

G2: I didn't know what to sideboard so I left my 60 as is. My rationale was it felt that I have a good matchup with it.*

I kept a slow hand with Monolith, Sphere, Wire, and a bunch of lands. I figured it was justifiable as the opposing deck runs Wastelands. If he tries to Waste my land, I would still be ahead because of my resistors.*

He goes with a turn one Delver of Secrets and died to it. My board included Sphere, Chalice at one, Tangle Wire and a lot of lands.*

G3: I was a little irritated that I forgot about Insectile Abomination (yes, it's a pun). My sideboarding was: -3 Monoliths, +3 Bombs.*

I kept my seven with Cloudpost, Vesuva, Glimmerpost, Factory, 2x Chalice, and a Golem. I go for a turn one Cloudpost. He goes for a Delver. I topdeck a Mox and Win from there. I seemed to have lost my notes but I remember having Chalice at one and two multiple Golems (with the help of Metamorph), Wasteland on a Tundra. All did it all playing around Daze. If he countered my Mox, I probably had a harder time (or even lost) that match. I think Glimmerpost bought me a lot of turns gaining life in the face of a flipped Delver.*

Match 5 - Elves*
At this point we both draw because we're not playing top 8 and we both made it already. But we played it anyways since there were players who were playing for top 8.*

G1: I win the dice roll. I mull to six from a one-lander seven. My six had Tomb, Waste, Cloudpost Chalice, Tangle Wire and Metamorph.*

I go for a turn one Chalice at one. He goes with Fetchland, Bayou go. I didn't do anything on turn two, just playing Cloudpost, expecting she would Abrupt Decay my Chalice and getting ready for the long game as I assumed she was on a G/B/x deck. His turn two was Gaea's Cradle *and I realized she was on Elves. I Waste both her lands and she didn't really do much. This game was pretty uneventful as the only creature on the field was Wurmcoil.

G2: Sideboard: -1 Titan, -3 Monolith, -4 Wires, +1 Hellkite, +1 Wurmcoil, +3 Bombs +3 Skites

I kept my seven with 2 Sol lands, 2 Revokers, a Chalice, Mox and Wasteland. While she mulled to six (I don't recall if my other opponents mulled but for some reason I took a note on this one). Her turn one was Fetchland into Bayou for a Deathrite Shaman. I drew a Cloudpost, pitch it to Mox, Wasteland into a Revoker on DRS. *I played like this as a gamble. I was hoping to bait an Abrupt Decay or slow her mana development. On her second turn, she had a Wirewood Symbiote though I don't remember if she casted it or she Green Sun's Zenith for it. My turn two was another Revoker on the Qasali Pridemage and Chalice at one. She didn't do much on her turn. My next turn was Hellkite. I believe the Revoker on both the cards I named and Chalice slowed her enough to make Hellkite relevant as she wasn't able to combo on time.*

[kingtk3]

@(nameless one): 'gratz for the finish!!! Your list seems an hybrid of the stax and combo versions (maybe more of a stax version with kuldotha and a titan), which was something I was contemplating too, though I haven't come up with a list yet.

So that's my questions:

how many times do you win with the stax plan and how many with the forgemaster? From your report it seems that it has been relevant only against S&S (against patriot I think you would have win with basically any creature of cost 5 or more): do you think it was necessarly at all?
how did the posts perform? you literally have only 3 spells that cost 6 or more: did the posts were useful because they help under spheres and/or tangles or were they overkill?
how was the singleton crucible? did you ever needed it?
did you felt comfortable having only 1 lifelink creature in the deck? I know that glimmerposts give you life, but they are probably the weakest land in your deck
how were the tangles and the spheres?
and the most obvious one: would you change something?


Good job with the deck!!!

[whatwas]

@nameless one: I love stax style mud, I was unsure about the post manabase before but think it might be the way to go. I also was happy to see someone else run mishra's factory instead of artifact land bc I believe it out classes them, they were an all-star in the miracles decks I've played in the past. Also what are your thoughts on karn liberated? I love him, he is the jace of mud imho, alternate win con + removal I can't find anything bad about him other that not being able to tinker him with forgemaster.

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[kingofethanol]

Good job (nameless_one)!
I think I'll be trying out your list once I am united with the rest of my collection.

[(nameless one)]

I just want to add that before I finalized that list, my test list didn't have Forgemaster. If you checked posts before, I mentioned that I have three uncertain slots. These were Thorn of Amethysts (and the three singleton robots all used to be Hellkite). Through my tests in Cockatrice, I find that I tend to lose to decks that either win before I set my Spheres or decks that spam the board early with permanents (creatures to be exact). Thorn doesn't really shine in those situations so it got cut. I replaced them with Metalworker as a "bait" but it doesn't really help my gameplan. If they kill/counter Metalworker, it was fine. But as soon as it doesn't happen, I am left with a useless Metalworker that attacks for 1 a turn. It also competes with "playtime" with resistors. I wanted to spam the board with resistors early game so my opponent can't interact. Metalworker does the opposite. I then switched it to Forgemaster (and switched the three Hellkites with singleton robots). Forgemaster is great because it can find the right win conditions in a given situation. It doesn't compete with the resistor's play timing. It also recycles dead cards like fading Wires and Moxen if you've developed you Post mana base.


how many times do you win with the stax plan and how many with the forgemaster? From your report it seems that it has been relevant only against S&S (against patriot I think you would have win with basically any creature of cost 5 or more): do you think it was necessarly at all?

I don't exactly understand the question. But my answer would be try to slow the game via Stax plan and try to resolve a beater (Lodestone or a singleton Robot) or a Forgemaster that can find a robot that will win the game depending on the scenario. I think the Stax plan is essential to my list as it prevents the opponent in doing early broken plays. Forgemaster is there to compliment the Stax plan.


how did the posts perform? you literally have only 3 spells that cost 6 or more: did the posts were useful because they help under spheres and/or tangles or were they overkill?

They were helpful in making Spheres and Wires one sided. They could be a liability because of the EtB tapped clause but that's why I had Moxen to compliment the Sol lands.


how was the singleton crucible? did you ever needed it?

In my testing, I even went as far as running Smokestacks and Crucible helps that strategy. I just find that I am indiscriminately discarding Posts to Moxen in favor of Sol land for an accelerated play. Crucible helps in getting them back to stabilize the mana base and to buy you extra turns in gaining life. Having to Wastelock an unprepared player also feels nice.


did you felt comfortable having only 1 lifelink creature in the deck? I know that glimmerposts give you life, but they are probably the weakest land in your deck

I didn't mind in my testing since my main goal is to stop the opponent from doing anything. I find that Glimmerpost are actually great of the life gain. They help with the life you've lost from Ancient Tomb


how were the tangles and the spheres?

They were great in the early game and can buy me enough time to set up my Post mana base and abuse it.

I want to add that the reason why I am running Sphere instead of Trinisphere is because it can also come in turn one like Chalice and aren't bad in multiples. Not to mention that no only they somehow play the same role, for cheaper cards, Sphere delays expensive casting cost spells like Jace while Trinisphere doesn't. Sphere also plays nice with Wires while 3sphere doesn't.


and the most obvious one: would you change something?

I might add Blightsteel Colossus as my 61th card as an "oops button" to Forgemaster if I don't have a lot of mana (Hellkite is my current one if I have an active Post manabase and I don't want to draw into BSC) or Batterskull as a more resilient creature when I can't protect a robot behind Spheres (although that's Sundering Titan's job). But so far, I'm satisfied with it.


Good job with the deck!!!
Thank you but I feel I got lucky with the deck overall. I want to see other players succeed with it for me to be convinced I'm going the right path with the list.


@nameless one: I love stax style mud, I was unsure about the post manabase before but think it might be the way to go.

Actually, 12 Post is still the slow mana base that it is. This is why I build my mana base in a way to abuse it buy not be reliant to it. I learned from Alex Holland that it's a terrible mana base but I've also learned from the recent great performances of the 12 Post lists that it's abusable. Why not compromise right?


I also was happy to see someone else run mishra's factory instead of artifact land bc I believe it out classes them, they were an all-star in the miracles decks I've played in the past.

I like then because they can attack if you've got your opponent on a lock. 6 damage in 3 turns means that Wurmcoil has less work to do and wins the game faster. Winning the game faster means you win before your opponent gets out of that lock.


Also what are your thoughts on karn liberated? I love him, he is the jace of mud imho, alternate win con + removal I can't find anything bad about him other that not being able to tinker him with forgemaster.

I like him but he costs 7 to cast. He doesn't play well with Spheres and Lodestone Golems. Trying to cast him means you have to either rely on 12post or go double Sol land and a Monolith. He's a great card but I don't think he's cut for the strategy I am currently presenting.

I would love to answer more questions and be proved wrong. Proving me wrong means there are mistakes that you can see that I haven't and I can go further in fixing it.

[Airwave]

Congratz on your performance and MUD-innovation (nameless_one)!

I was only wondering why you've taken up ratchet bomb in your sideboard instead of powder keg, since they work better with tangle wire?

[(nameless one)]

Congratz on your performance and MUD-innovation (nameless_one)!

I was only wondering why you've taken up ratchet bomb in your sideboard instead of powder keg, since they work better with tangle wire?

I can't find Powder Keg.

But I would rather have Keg over Bomb

Why Keg vs Bomb:

- Keg is old frame, Bomb isn't.
- Keg plays well with Wires
- What enchantments do you want to blow up Bomb? I'm sure as hell both do not work under an active Stony Silence
- Blowing up planeswalkers with Bomb in Legacy? Hopefully you're not losing at that point. Also, that's what Revokers are there for. And you're supposed to prevent them from resolving with resistors.

[Jay_Gatz]

Keg can also kill artifact/man lands

[Alex Holland]

I can't find Powder Keg.

But I would rather have Keg over Bomb

Why Keg vs Bomb:

- Keg is old frame, Bomb isn't.
- Keg plays well with Wires
- What enchantments do you want to blow up Bomb? I'm sure as hell both do not work under an active Stony Silence
- Blowing up planeswalkers with Bomb in Legacy? Hopefully you're not losing at that point. Also, that's what Revokers are there for. And you're supposed to prevent them from resolving with resistors.

Frames can be altered of course. I blow loads of lilianas with bomb but i dont meet many enchantments nowadays.. occasional pernicious deed and rings. Still u do want to take them out. Why opt for a card that is faaar les versatible?
legacys magic number is 2. You will want to control ur bomb. I often put 1 counter on it then wait what they drop in their turn. Kegs horrible since u cant play it in advance but ull have to wait and play catchup.
Its only better with tangle wire, i agree.
But otherwise.. ratchet of course. M14 buy a box promo is nice?

Too bad u didnt break smokestack. I think its an incredible card, just not in current mud builds. One day it will be playable i just know :tongue:

[(nameless one)]

At one point, I was playing a version with Smokestacks, Bridges and Wurmcoil. The plan was to durdle while you whittle the board. Then sacrifice the Bridge to Smokestack to let Wurmcoil through.

[manugl84]

I´m trying something between nameless´s list and astormbrewing´s. More threat-heavy with thorns MD. Something like this:

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
2 Steel Hellkite
3 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 kuldotha forgemaster
1 Blightsteel colossus
1 Sundering titan


4 Chalice of the Void
3 Grim Monolith
3 Trinisphere
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Domination

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Wasteland
3 Vesuva


4 Tormod's Crypt
2 All is Dust
3 Ratchet Bomb
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Witchbane Orb
1 Duplicant
2 ?

What do you think?

[kingtk3]

You need the fourth monolith I believe. Also, thorn<sphere of resistance: thorn is good only versus combo decks while sphere hits every strategy.

Sent from my mobile, forgive me for grammar errors.

[whatwas]

I bought the vesuvas, this week I'll be testing with nameless's list if I like it, I will pilot it in scg Orlando.

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[whatwas]

In regards to nameless one's list, I feel it lacks something. I want to put in more threats but I don't like the idea of taking much out, maybe monolith but I really can't take them out if I want to ad things that cost more. Revokers was my second choice but it's too strong vs match up where we need a g1 win like SnT and jace.decks. maybe:
-2 mox diamond
+2 metalworker

-1 phyrexian revoker
-1 grim monolith

+2 robots ie blightsteel and wurmcoil engine #2.

Not sure what I want really.

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[Alex Holland]

Is it really strange to up my number of rishadan ports to 3 and lower my main wastelands to 3?

I love wasteland but often i hate losing my own land. Since mostly ill get mana quick i think rishadan port just 'may' be better here. ill still keep 3 waste main but im just gonna see how this little tweak feels for now,

anymore players who use ports in mud?

[Esper3k]

Played MUD at one of our weekly local tournaments this weekend. I did mediocre with it, making T8 out of 18 players, but losing in my T8 match vs RUG pretty convincingly.

I'm still working on a hybrid between the Stompy and Forgemaster builds, so we'll see what comes of it.

I did win a game where my opponent had 3 TNN's on the board though :) Steel Hellkite is so important now because of that guy.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Yes steel hellkite's really good there although I'm sure your opponent overextended his board position. 3 TNN in play is asking for it. The player here that runs MUD uses metamorphs and steel hellkites to good success against the nemeses.

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[Esper3k]

Yes steel hellkite's really good there although I'm sure your opponent overextended his board position. 3 TNN in play is asking for it. The player here that runs MUD uses metamorphs and steel hellkites to good success against the nemeses.

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He kind of had to. I had a Wurmcoil and Batterskull on the board, so in order to get through and still be able to defend, he had to play the third one. Pretty hilarious though to see that board state.

[Alex Holland]

Played MUD at one of our weekly local tournaments this weekend. I did mediocre with it, making T8 out of 18 players, but losing in my T8 match vs RUG pretty convincingly.

I'm still working on a hybrid between the Stompy and Forgemaster builds, so we'll see what comes of it.

I did win a game where my opponent had 3 TNN's on the board though :) Steel Hellkite is so important now because of that guy.

Ratchet bomb does it too..

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Ratchet bomb is fine, a bit slow...

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[Wangtopia]

So, I'm Planning on bringing MUD to a legacy tournament this Sunday, but I'm having trouble with the sideboard. It's probably going to be a small tourney, but I don't really know the meta. I know there's going to be 1 merfolk deck and one American Delver deck there; there's also a good chance of burn, re-animator, and shardless BUG showing up. Here's my deck list and what I currently use for the side board. Any help would be much appreciated.

Land:
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Vesuva
4 Wasteland

Creatures:
4 Metalworker
3 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Steel Hellkite
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Sundering Titan

Artifacts:
1 Staff of Domination
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Staff of Nin

Sideboard:
1 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Spine of Ish Sah
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Tormod's Crypt
5 ??????

[whatwas]

Can some give me a few reasons why they play staff of nin? I play it too but almost never is it a relief when I draw it.

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[Secretly.A.Bee]

I second that. I see NO reason to play it whatsoever. I'm sure the card draw seems nice but for 6 I'd prefer anything else I'm pretty sure.

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[whatwas]

It might be good late game but even then if I had that much mana I'd rather just land a wurmcoil or forgemaster. Would another staff of domination be better. Its a quasi win con that can get you a card draw if desperate enough. The ping ability doesn't do much for late game in most scenarios, they probably will flip delver before you play it. Early game it will be a time walk against you almost every time.

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[Wangtopia]

I second that. I see NO reason to play it whatsoever. I'm sure the card draw seems nice but for 6 I'd prefer anything else I'm pretty sure.


I find that with the build I run, if my opponent edges me out after an explosive start, Staff of Nin can really help replenish my hand and help me stabilize. It's also a nice way to whittle down planeswakers and take down a board being dominated by Mother of Runes.

I haven't been able to playtest with it as much as I'd like, but my preliminary findings have been promising.

[Zirath]

I find that with the build I run, if my opponent edges me out after an explosive start, Staff of Nin can really help replenish my hand and help me stabilize. It's also a nice way to whittle down planeswakers and take down a board being dominated by Mother of Runes.

I haven't been able to playtest with it as much as I'd like, but my preliminary findings have been promising.

How exactly does Mother of Runes stop this deck?

[Wangtopia]

How exactly does Mother of Runes stop this deck?

...good point. I was just trying to think of any 1 toughness legacy staple and mom came to mind. Dark Confidant, Grim Lavamancer, clique, etc.

[Zirath]

...good point. I was just trying to think of any 1 toughness legacy staple and mom came to mind. Dark Confidant, Grim Lavamancer, clique, etc.

Dark Confidant and Clique are the only two that really are notable honestly. Dark Confidant gets your opponent ahead in cards and Clique goes over our head most of the time. However, you have to determine whether the cards you are cutting for Staff of Nin are actually worse than Staff. Based on your list, it looks like you would be cutting Lightning Greaves or other utility-like cards. I am not that familiar with the MUD Post list, so I don't know if you have enough mana to reliably not get stuck. Based on my Stompy experience, I would want my curve to be lower, but I am also a big proponent of Phyrexian Revoker.

[Wangtopia]

I've found that the post mana base can be very explosive and the life off of Glimmervoid can help balance out the life loss off of Ancient Tomb. If I can't make it with an explosive start, Nin is there to help me play out the long game. I'm usually pretty happy to see it turn 5-6.

[Teluin]

I didn't take notes today, but was at a 36 man tournament and split Top 2. The guy in the finals was the same guy I drew with in the last round, we played for fun though and I won/was pretty confident in the match.

Round 1 vs Miracles - 2-1
Round 2 vs Affinity - 2-1
Round 3 vs UWR Delver - 2-1
Round 4 vs UWR Delver 2-0
Round 5 - Draw (Elves)
Round 6 - Draw (D&T)

Top 8

Quarterfinals vs Miracles - 2-0
Semifinals vs Elves - 2-1
Finals vs D&T Split Top 2

[Just me]

I didn't take notes today, but was at a 36 man tournament and split Top 2. The guy in the finals was the same guy I drew with in the last round, we played for fun though and I won/was pretty confident in the match.

Round 1 vs Miracles - 2-1
Round 2 vs Affinity - 2-1
Round 3 vs UWR Delver - 2-1
Round 4 vs UWR Delver 2-0
Round 5 - Draw (Elves)
Round 6 - Draw (D&T)

Top 8

Quarterfinals vs Miracles - 2-0
Semifinals vs Elves - 2-1
Finals vs D&T Split Top 2

What deck and SB did you use? Any advice on SB strategy in these matches?

[Barsoom]

It seems REALLY good to me your score of 4-1 vs Patriot cause i always have an hard time to win against that deck (and Canadian too); i play the 12Post version. I'm curious to see your decklist.

[Teluin]

Hey guys, here's what my deck list and SB were:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland

4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Steel Hellkite
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Spellskite
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Lightning Graves
2 Voltaic Key
4 Grim Monolith
1 Staff of Nin
1 Spine of Ish Sah

Sideboard:

3 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Meekstone
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Ratchet Bomb

Regarding mainboard:

A lot of things are pretty self-explanatory/common, so I'm just going to comment on the things that are a bit different.

2 Voltaic Key - these are amazing with Monoliths and Metalworker, but also with surprise defense and using Kuldotha twice in 1 turn. The majority of the time, I'd say these are best with Monolith though since no one wants to counter either of them.

2 Spellskite - these are awesome. They protect Metalworker so he can win the game, and Colossus from StP so you can win the game.

3 Lightning Greaves - I guess this is a bit more common, but often I only see 2 in a build. I used to use 2, but I always wanted to see them so I went to 3. They're amazing.

Regarding 12Post:

I do not like the 12Post version at all. The beauty of MUD is that it can win on T2, but it has a late game as well because the deck just constantly draws into game-changing cards. Vesuva sucks when it's the only land(s) in your hand, and Cloudpost's ETB tapped can be really slow as well - that's 8 lands I don't want to see in my opening 7. I imagine 12Post mulls a lot more often than the more traditional build. I know that I rarely mull with my deck.

Re: Patriot

Don't rely on Chalice and mulligan to it. A T1 Lightning Greaves can be a lot scarier for them than a T1 Chalice. Also keep in mind that they don't have a lot of card advantage in the deck, so if you present a lot of threats to them they can not answer all of them.

Regarding sideboard:

Ignore the 1 Meekstone - I have NEVER used the card and I should remove it for a 4th Pithing Needle (the card I side in the most).

Miracles I mostly just sided out the Trinisphere (not relevant vs them) and Pithing Needle always came in. Stops Jace and Top which are key, but can also be used on Entreat the Angels.

Affinity I brought in Pithing Needle because he also had Tezzeret in the deck. Can also be used on Cranial Plating.

UWR Delver was (shocking!) Pithing Needle for equipment and Stoneforge.

Elves I don't remember what I sided in against him - maybe 1 Needle. Steel Hellkite is awesome against them.

[whatwas]

I went 2-4 drop in scg open Orlando yesterday. Will post a report as soon as I have time. But in short I blame myself for not practicing enough, mainly bc I work so much. And play too much dota2.

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[Hyakumanten]

Hey,

Last night I went 2-2 at a 10-man local event.

Here is my list:

4x Wasteland
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Cavern of Souls
2x Darksteel Citadel

2x Mox Opal
2x Crucible of Worlds
2x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Grim Monolith
3x Lightning Greaves
4x Chalice of the Void
2x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Staff of Nin
2x Karn Liberated

4x Metalworker
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
4x Lodestone Golem
3x Wurmcoil Engine
2x Steel Hellkite
1x Sundering Titan
1x Blightsteel Colossus
1x Platinum Emperion

//Sideboard
4x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Duplicant
3x Trinisphere
2x All is Dust
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Silent Arbiter
2x Relic of Progenitus

Some match notes I took:

vs. Affinity 2-1

This was really easy. Chalice on 0 shut him down G1. G2 I felt confident keeping a hand with three ancient tombs and a Karn, but the damage from the tombs added up and Karn by himself couldn't stop the robots. Could have done better. G3 he had no disruption, so couldn't stop a turn three hasty Blightsteel.

vs. RUG Delver 2-0

G1 he scooped to turn 2 chalice on 1. G2 a turn 3 Lodestone Golem with greaves was pressure he couldn't survive. I had another one in my hand for when his nimble mongoose stepped in the golem's path, so I just kept pressuring him.

vs. UWR Delver 1-2

I don't have many notes for this. G1 felt quite slow but I couldn't land anything through his counters and eventually fell to the delvers. G2, I ended up with a wurmcoil and my opponent with a batterskull and that wasn't really a fair fight. Eventually with nothing on the board to equip the skull to, I rode wurmcoil to victory. G3 I kept a crap hand and drew crap. I too wary about taking a mulligan.

vs. Punishing Jund 0-2

My worst matchup of the evening. I couldn't maintain anything on the board. Thoughtseize and Hymn removed my enablers and Maelstrom Pulse and Liliana removed anything I did manage to land. I played a few more practice games while we waited for others to finish and he thrashed me every time.

I feel like the deck should be faster. I took out the Voltaic Keys because most of the time, one of my early plays will be Chalice on 1. It's hard to land any threats without Metalworker or Monolith, so I think in the future I'll be wary about keeping a hand that doesn't have any of those.

[Zorker]

Well what's thev difference between the 2 tipes of mud:

1)12post manabase

2) "standard mud"(even the one with red splash for the welder)

[CaptainTwiddle]

I feel like the deck should be faster. I took out the Voltaic Keys because most of the time, one of my early plays will be Chalice on 1. It's hard to land any threats without Metalworker or Monolith, so I think in the future I'll be wary about keeping a hand that doesn't have any of those.

I know it's a hotly contested card in the archetype, but I really think you need some number of Voltaic Key to be reliably explosive. You mention that you cut them in part because of Chalice, but you're running Sensie's Top, which has the same problem. I think Key is superior to Top in MUD. That being said, my experience is with Welder MUD, so I'm not quite as worried about Chalice stopping my own Keys, b/c I can weld them back if needed.

I also like running more lands/mana sources, and as much as I like Mox Opal, it isn't a reliable turn one mana source. I ended up running single copies of Mox Opal, Mox Diamond, and Lotus Petal. While it happens rarely, the ability to play Petal/Diamond, Opal, & artifact land to enable a turn one Metalworker is a nice bonus. Though I do think Petal is better in Welder buids, as it provides an artifact that you can readily put into the yard to turn on your Welders (being able to weld out Wurmcoil in response to Swords to Plowshares, for example, is a nice spot to be in).

[whatwas]

Sorry I wasn't able to post my report on scg Orlando bc I have been working so much. I plan on writing something up still when I have the time. One note about 12post mud is that when your up against turbo eldrazi there almost nothing you can do. The role right over mud. That was one of my match ups at scg and it ended with in about ten minutes. Its

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[Zorker]

Another brainfart question: How would the deck be affected if the wasteland were exchanged with the caverns of souls?

[Climax]

Another brainfart question: How would the deck be affected if the wasteland were exchanged with the caverns of souls?

It would become better.
No, serious. This is exactly what I am doing at the moment. (Since switching to the 12 post Engine from my old Version).
Chalice at 1 handles the Removal and Cavern the counterspells. It won't get better.
the only bad thing about it: I must now buy foil Cavern of Souls and find another home for the foil Wastelands...

[feline]

At SCGColumbus, some MUD player totally kicked my arse round 5! They did a turn 1 Chalice, I countered it, then they did turn 2 Grim monolith I believe, then turn 3 it was like, lightning greaves, metalworker, reveal 8, tap, cast blightsteel colossus, equip lightning greaves DEAD while holding a flusterstorm.

Then game 2 he did a turn 1 lightning greaves and I'm like "I'm not countering that I know what else is in there (Chalice/Trinisphere) So I waited, well it's turn 2 Cavern of souls & uncounterable blightsteel turn 3 means I'm dead again.

To who that was, if you read these forums, congrats again, I will likely remember that game the most from Columbus more than anything else, it was so fast it's why I got food after the match. I felt like I was going to a knife fight with a gun & my opponent pulled out a bazooka, ha ha.

[Airwave]

Well what's thev difference between the 2 tipes of mud:

1)12post manabase

2) "standard mud"(even the one with red splash for the welder)


Actually there are several more going around I think.

12 post, red splash, white splash, colorless (I don't think there are many blue/green/black splashes versions present at this moment)

And then there are still differences. MUD combo/aggro (mostly red splash), MUD stompy (mostly colorless or 12post).

I myself splash white at this moment for Stoneforge Mystic, Scourglass and Thalia. I like it and it actually works quite well :smile:
Still I'm testing for 12post too, but I can't get it to work against heavily creature based decks at this moment... so I'm sticking to my own version (for now that is!)

[maCHOOga]

Hey all, I've been playing and tuning MUD for a few months and playing it at local tournaments with a decent amount of success. This past Sunday I also piloted it at SCG legacy open. I ended the day 5-3, had a blast and was Jedi mind tricked to drop instead of playing the final round to win to top 64.

Here's my quick tournament report:
Round 1: U/R Delver 2-1 (1-0)
Round 2: Dredge 2-1 (2-0)
Round 3: UWR Delver 1-2 (2-1)*
My opponent drew his one wear/tear in game three to prevent me from going bananas
Round 4: U/W Miracles 2-0 (3-1)
Round 5: Esper Stoneblade 2-0 (4-1)
Round 6: BUG Delver 0-2 (4-2)**
**game two was double hymn to tourach uggghhhh
Round 7: UWR Delver 2-0 (5-2)
Round 8: RUG Delver 0-2 (5-3)***
*** This was against a friend I have 2-0ed in the past, he just had 3x goyf this time. And a stifle on a war coil death trigger. I also mulliganed to 5 on the play.
Round 9: Drop and eat a hamburger lololol

Here is my list I played:


1x Blightsteel Colossus
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Metalworker
1x Sundering Titan
3x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Myr Battlesphere
2x Steel Hellkite

4x Cloudpost
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
3x Cavern of Souls
4x Glimmerpost
3x Wasteland
2x Vesuva

4x Chalice of the Void
3x Lightning Greaves
4x Grim Monolith
2x Trinisphere
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Staff of Nin
1x Staff of Domination

Sideboard
1x Bottled Cloister
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Sphere of Resistance
1x Platinum Emperion
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Spine of Ish Sah
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x All is Dust
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Sundering Titan

I chose to maindeck cavern of souls because I seem to always side them in. I also don't like 4 Vesuva because I tend to draw a hand of two of them and no other lands or city of traitors. What do you think? I'm more than happy to explain the logic of some of my choices.

And yes, so much for a diverse metagame since I played delver variants 5 of 8 rounds. What are the best sideboard against them other than ratchet bomb and all is dust?

I'm about ready to switch to the welder build because I want to see which sub archetype I like best. I also want to try a blue Mud brew. I want to cast treasure Mage! :-D

[Ricardio]

I have both 12post and reguar MUD built online with GQ instead of 80tixeach wastelands. I was wondering if I could get a glance of decklists that outline the other builds in a concise manner. I read the primer and most of the thread but I saw people discussing archetypes that I hadn't yet seem. Also, Welder version 4-0 a daily the other day. http://mtgpulse.com/event/15803#221398

Thanks in advanced

[Alex Holland]

I have both 12post and reguar MUD built online with GQ instead of 80tixeach wastelands. I was wondering if I could get a glance of decklists that outline the other builds in a concise manner. I read the primer and most of the thread but I saw people discussing archetypes that I hadn't yet seem. Also, Welder version 4-0 a daily the other day. http://mtgpulse.com/event/15803#221398

Thanks in advanced

Well u have a few choices to make in MUD. Answer them and choose ur deck!

1. Combo OR stompy?

Combo = forgemaster and maybe also welder.
Stompy = critters and maybe more disruption

2. U like batterskull?

No = cool just play wurm and hellkite
Yes = cool play stoneforge or godo, bandit warlord

3. U like splashing colors?

Red- godo, magus of the moon, blood moon, goblin
White- thalia, stoneforge, porcelain leginoaire
Blue- phyrexian metamorph, card draw

4. So he locks u what u gonna do?

Lock him first- tangle wire, chalice, trinisphere, wasteland, rishadan port, revoker etc
Bring out big guns- spine of ish shah, karn liberated
B cool- ratchet bomb, powder keg

5. H u gonna win?

Beast- wurmcoil batterskull steelhellkite godo lodestone
Combo -colossus, eldrazi, sundering titan, staff of domination

6. Well what the hell is mud anyway???

A archetype based on loads of mana and lots of artifacts.
Mud = anything with metalworker to me

[Monkey_Island]

Actually there are several more going around I think.

12 post, red splash, white splash, colorless (I don't think there are many blue/green/black splashes versions present at this moment)

And then there are still differences. MUD combo/aggro (mostly red splash), MUD stompy (mostly colorless or 12post).

I myself splash white at this moment for Stoneforge Mystic, Scourglass and Thalia. I like it and it actually works quite well :smile:
Still I'm testing for 12post too, but I can't get it to work against heavily creature based decks at this moment... so I'm sticking to my own version (for now that is!)

I am also currently testing a white version. Here is my list:

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Phyrexian Revoker

4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Thorn Of Amethyst
4 Mox Opal
4 Grim Monolith
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Ancient Den
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City Of Traitors
3 Plains
1 Karakas


4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Rest In Peace
4 Trinisphere
3 Slots


The 3 slots in the SB could be Helm Of Obedience. I prefer Thorn over Thalia because of the synergy with Lodestone Golem and Mox Opal + you can put it on the 1st turn with a Sol Land. I was positively surprised by the 4 Canonists even against non combo decks. Stoneforge is a boss and the Monoliths, Moxes + the Sol Lands make it relly easy to fetch an equipment + cast + equip in the same turn if it takes a removal.

Any comments/critics on the deck are welcome!
Cheers.

[Alex Holland]

Why not run thorn thalia and lodestone? Add some metamorphs for maybe doubling anything staxxy and ratchet bombs for if they do get something out. Maybe even smokestack with flagstones of trokair (!)

Stoneforge could be wincon with sword of fire and ice, batterskull maybe even sword of vengeance. But would it still be mud or staxx?

[Monkey_Island]

Believe me I tried Smokestack in a lot of build! At the moment I am even trying Semblance Anvil in order to cast giant artifacts under Humility!

[Mortox]

@Monkey_Island, I've been playing around with a white list similar to yours, running Metalworker over Mox Opal though. Ran it through a couple dailies online, 3-1'd yesterday (won against burn/burn/elves, lost against UBr Delver), 0-2 dropped today (lost to Elves/RUG delver), and first impression is that all the tax/prison effects make the control/combo/+instant & sorcery based aggro such as burn, pretty easy in general. Tempo feels pretty awful though, maybe with Mox Opal your games would play out differently since certainly a Sol Land>Grim Monolith>Metalworker getting Dazed on my T1 is abysmal. I think if you get paired up against a lot of combo/control the deck can perform well but if you run into tempo delver/tnn decks the results will be poor.

Then again I'm just learning how to play MUD in general, let alone the white version, so my results could also be attributed to my own mistakes.

edit: In several matchups I felt a board sweeper would be useful but All is Dust is fairly anti-synergistic with several of our own cards, especially if we board in any additional white permanents. Scourglass was another consideration but it's a rather slow answer. I think this deck suffers from the same problem most tax/prison decks suffer from which is that it has problems dealing with resolved permanents. I mean in the second daily I played where I went 0-2 drop, I lost against a lone Goyf who got to swing in 6x despite having a CoTV on 1 and two Thorns up in the first couple turns of the game - not to say that example is any evidence of anything but just to state the point that once something like that hits the board, if you don't draw one of your bigger bombs (Wurmcoil, etc) they just beat you down.

edit2: I might try Cavern of Souls instead of Darksteel Citadel in my list - unfortunately there's quite an array of creature types but the Cavern would still produce mana for casting Lodestone/Metalworker/Wurmcoil/Revoker even if I had named Human (canonist) or Kor (stoneforge) and might solve at least a few of the issues I'm having with the tempo decks.

So this is what my list will look like:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Den
3 City of Traitor
3 Plains
2 Karakas

4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Grim Monolith
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Staff of Nin

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Rest in Peace
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Scourglass
2 Spellskite
3 Disenchant

[CaptainTwiddle]

...
So this is what my list will look like:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Den
3 City of Traitor
3 Plains
2 Karakas

4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Grim Monolith
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Staff of Nin

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Rest in Peace
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Scourglass
2 Spellskite
3 Disenchant


I feel like this list seems a little disjointed. Specifically, I don't really see what Metalworker is helping accomplish other than casting Wurmcoil or Staff of Nin. Obviously, being able to make a bunch of mana is generally useful, but whereas traditional MUD decks are then casting Wurmcoil, Steel Hellkite, Kuldotha Forgemaster, Blightsteel Colossus, or going off with Staff of Domination, this deck just seems a little mediocre in terms of top end power level.

One thing that I would consider trying in a White MUD list with Stoneforge is a single Umbral Mantle. Equipped to a Metalworker with at least 2 artifacts in your hand, it gives you the ability to infinitely pump the Worker while generating infinite mana.

[Monkey_Island]

@CaptainTwiddle

I agree with you concerning Metalworker in the white version. In my opinion, the goal of the white version is not to drop threats as big as traditional MUD but rather relies on Stoneforge, Canonist and the other sphere effects (including CotV) on the first turns. It is less "all in" as the colorless version because the curve is smoother which make you able to drop something that advances the state of the game every turn with more consistency.

@Mortox

I had less problems against Tempo decks with the white version. Mox Opal are very helpful against Daze and Wasteland. In the list I posted there are a lot of cards they must answer. Canonist in that matchup is really good. If it's countered, it is 1 less counterspell for a stoneforge. If it resolves they can't cast a threat + cantrip in the same turn giving you time to hardcast a Wurmcoil or equip.

All in all this I am liking this version for the moment because of its consistency. Sorry if my explanations are confused, English is not my mother language ;)

[Airwave]

I feel like this list seems a little disjointed. Specifically, I don't really see what Metalworker is helping accomplish other than casting Wurmcoil or Staff of Nin. Obviously, being able to make a bunch of mana is generally useful, but whereas traditional MUD decks are then casting Wurmcoil, Steel Hellkite, Kuldotha Forgemaster, Blightsteel Colossus, or going off with Staff of Domination, this deck just seems a little mediocre in terms of top end power level.

One thing that I would consider trying in a White MUD list with Stoneforge is a single Umbral Mantle. Equipped to a Metalworker with at least 2 artifacts in your hand, it gives you the ability to infinitely pump the Worker while generating infinite mana.

Umbral Mantle... that is actually quite a good suggestion. Only downside of it compared to Staff is that you don't get the game-winning draw ability. On the other hand, it's fetchable and works with two artifacts.... hmm sure something to think about.

I don't play Ethersworn Canonist because I don't find it strong enough against most decks. I have put one in the sideboard in the past against Storm decks, but that's about it. My deck still maintains the "old style" mud with Wurmcoil, Steel Hellkite, Kuldotha Forgemaster, Blightsteel Colossus and even Platinum Emperion with the addition of Stoneforge, Thalia and a single scourglass for sweeping actions in combination with Forgemaster (has saved me quite some times actually (e.g. against TNN))

I'm also considering Restoration Angel (nice combo with Stoneforge) but haven't tested it yet. It would change the deck somewhat I guess.

[Airwave]

I am also currently testing a white version. Here is my list:

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Phyrexian Revoker

4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Thorn Of Amethyst
4 Mox Opal
4 Grim Monolith
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Ancient Den
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City Of Traitors
3 Plains
1 Karakas


4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Rest In Peace
4 Trinisphere
3 Slots


The 3 slots in the SB could be Helm Of Obedience. I prefer Thorn over Thalia because of the synergy with Lodestone Golem and Mox Opal + you can put it on the 1st turn with a Sol Land. I was positively surprised by the 4 Canonists even against non combo decks. Stoneforge is a boss and the Monoliths, Moxes + the Sol Lands make it relly easy to fetch an equipment + cast + equip in the same turn if it takes a removal.

Any comments/critics on the deck are welcome!
Cheers.

In this aggro version you might want to add Porcelain Legionnaire? Or maybe even the new Spirit of the Labyrinth...

I'm not sure any version without either Metalworker of Forgemaster can still be called MUD though :tongue:

[maCHOOga]

In this aggro version you might want to add Porcelain Legionnaire? Or maybe even the new Spirit of the Labyrinth...

I'm not sure any version without either Metalworker of Forgemaster can still be called MUD though :tongue:

I think it should be called MUD Hatebears!

[Monkey_Island]

In this aggro version you might want to add Porcelain Legionnaire? Or maybe even the new Spirit of the Labyrinth...

I'm not sure any version without either Metalworker of Forgemaster can still be called MUD though :tongue:

You are probably right... No Metalworker and no Forgemaster = not MUD. But it is a relly fun deck to play (like MUD)!

[CaptainTwiddle]

I think it should be called MUD Hatebears!

Death and Staxes? :wink:

[Mr. Froggy]

I just built this deck on MTGO!

Man the servers suck sometimes... -_-

I like what I see as of yet though!

[Michael Keller]

In this aggro version you might want to add Porcelain Legionnaire? Or maybe even the new Spirit of the Labyrinth...

I'm not sure any version without either Metalworker of Forgemaster can still be called MUD though :tongue:

This is the fifth or sixth thread I've seen with posters having huge hard-ons for Rest in Peace-Helm-based combo sideboards. Maybe even the seventh.

Stop with that shit!

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Ummm. It's a great strategy for this deck.

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[Michael Keller]

Ummm. It's a great strategy for this deck.

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I was being sarcastic.

I still hate it.

[Airwave]

This is the fifth or sixth thread I've seen with posters having huge hard-ons for Rest in Peace-Helm-based combo sideboards. Maybe even the seventh.

Stop with that shit!

Ehm.. I don't play Helm of Obedience.... Never did actually :really:

[H]

I have not played Legacy MUD in many years, but just a general idea/question. Why does no one run Karn, Silver Golem?

Seems to me he would be pretty decent in the current meta, since there is so many SFM decks running around now and he makes Batterskull hilariously bad. Sure, he dies to Plowshares, but so does everything else. He doesn't die to Bolt and he block everything besides TNN like a champ. Not to mention he can make a number of your lock pieces into threats for the final push.

[Mockingbird]

I have not played Legacy MUD in many years, but just a general idea/question. Why does no one run Karn, Silver Golem?

Seems to me he would be pretty decent in the current meta, since there is so many SFM decks running around now and he makes Batterskull hilariously bad. Sure, he dies to Plowshares, but so does everything else. He doesn't die to Bolt and he block everything besides TNN like a champ. Not to mention he can make a number of your lock pieces into threats for the final push.

Honestly, in terms of mid-range drops Lodestone Golem is better and space is tight.

In terms of the function you describe, Phyrexian Revoker does almost the same job but can be run out in multiples for less mana.

I suppose I could see Karn as a sideboard tech, but with our most reliable dig power being Staff of Nin and I'd rather tutor Blightsteel Colossus with Kuldotha Forgemaster as an "Oops I win" over "let's annoy you." Karn has a place (I'm thinking pop Affinity Lands) or add pressure with your artifacts, but at this point in time what you talk about is redundant to MUD in my opinion.

[Mr. Froggy]

I just got a Turn 2 kill vs Enchantress. :)

Didn't think the deck was that explosive!

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I just got a Turn 2 kill vs Enchantress. :)

Didn't think the deck was that explosive!

Which kill?

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[Mr. Froggy]

Which kill?

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I went turn 1 Greaves followed by Metalworker-> Forgemaster-> Colossus

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Yeah that's fun.

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[Zorker]

@mr froggy : whic version of the deck? 12post or welder or other

[Mr. Froggy]

Just normal I guess I would say.

No 12Post manabase for me!

[Mockingbird]

My current MUD-Post build I've been running for awhile:

//Lands: 24
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

//Creatures: 15
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Platinum Angel
2 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine

//Artifacts: 19
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
1 Staff of Domination
2 Staff of Nin
4 Tangle Wire
4 Trinisphere

//Planeswalkers: 2
2 Karn Liberated

//Sideboard: 15
1 Bottled Cloister
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Witchbane Orb
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Sundering Titan
2 All is Dust

I'm beginning it may beginning to feel a little dated (not too much though, I ramped out a hardcast Blightsteel on Turn 3 recently), but I'm open for suggestions.

P.S. I also have a non-Post MUD deck as well, so please don't suggest I take out the Cloudpost mana base. I already have another deck for that.

[Rome]

What's about playing The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale in the Sideboard, by running the Twelve Post Mana Base?

We can pay our creatures easily, but it ist very strong against Goblins, Elves, Dredge, Maybe Threshold, Meerfolk, Empty the Warrens...

[Alex Holland]

[QOTE=Rome;790559]What's about playing The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale in the Sideboard, by running the Twelve Post Mana Base?

We can pay our creatures easily, but it ist very strong against Goblins, Elves, Dredge, Maybe Threshold, Meerfolk, Empty the Warrens...[/QUOTE]

Tribal really shouldnt be a problem in the first place.

12 post is just.. slooow and instabile. Double vesuva? Yeah great.
I think i found the right mana base for MUD:

8 sol land
4 wasteland (this legacy right? )
4 cavern of souls
2 petrified field (solves traitors instability)
4 mishras factory (game winner in certain matchups PLUS u can surprise activate kuldotha by tapping it 4 a artifact worker then sacking it! Most dont notice it like that)

[Zorker]

Sorry brainfarted, counted 26 land instead of 22

[biglongjohns]

I placed 16th out of 283 people at SCG Nashville this past weekend with MUD. Posted a report to the Tournament Reports section for anyone interested.

[Zorker]

I placed 16th out of 283 people at SCG Nashville this past weekend with MUD. Posted a report to the Tournament Reports section for anyone interested.

thanks, always interested in mud reports

[whatwas]

I placed 16th out of 283 people at SCG Nashville this past weekend with MUD. Posted a report to the Tournament Reports section for anyone interested.

Congratulations, I saw that. It made me happy

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[maCHOOga]

I placed 16th out of 283 people at SCG Nashville this past weekend with MUD. Posted a report to the Tournament Reports section for anyone interested.

Congrats on top 16!

I noticed in your tournament report that your one and a half losses are to discard, either dead guy or Jund. I've been working on it and this past weekends $3k, I tried running 2 bottled cloisters maindeck. I taked to people and we thought it was a great gap card in the mana base, as the deck usually only has lodestone golem in the 4 slot. Game one I landed it against Jund and the card advantage was their demise. Ufortunately the following game they were on the play and hymned me the turn before I could cast it. I found it significantly better over witchbane orb. Dodekapod seems ok, but if they thought seize you first they will know you have it. But if they don't know you have it, blow out! :-)

What did you think of the manabase? I noticed that it was the same as the one I post a few weeks ago. I spent a lot of time trying to smooth mine to get to that configuration.

[Alex Holland]

Dodekapod is just horrible or at least i think. I think theres only one non targeted discard card in legacy? Thats a niche. And a 5/5 really isnt that impressive right? Right??!

Bottled cloister is a cool card. only reason i lose from jund is because they draw removal faster and more then i can make threads. Bob, even sylvan library can devestate our plans just because of more removal.

I still dont like postmana base. Ill keep with my cities and some petrified fields for stability.

[kingtk3]

I second Alex on dodecapode: I tested it and to fight Liliana (since we chose what to discard), but a ground 5/5 is not very large compared to goyf, which against us is often 5/6 or more.
One time it even got discarded by thoughtseize since it was my only non-land card, and even then it was underwelming.

@Alex: Doesn't all this talkin' about post manabase interest you? I'm feeling a little excited and I might give it a try: GP Paris is coming and I haven't still made my mind about playing reanimator...

[biglongjohns]

I really like the Post lands in this deck. Before I saw them used in this deck, I had pretty much given up on playing MUD after constantly getting blown out by Wastelands. Also, since the lands alone allow you to generate massive amounts of mana, you don't need to play Mox Opal, Mox Diamond, or Lotus Petal which are all terrible draws in the late game.

I like Bottled Cloister and I even own a couple but any deck is gonna side in their artifact hate in G2 and the thought of my Cloister getting destroyed while my whole hand is under it sounds devastating. I'm not actually considering Dodecapod. It just sounds funny. Maybe if my local meta was going Hymn crazy then I'd jam 4. Witchbane Orb seems like a reasonable card as it also has cross application against Storm, High Tide and Burn.

[(nameless one)]

If you're worried about discard, have you thought about using Buried Ruin over Cavern of Souls? Possibly with Crucible of Worlds

Even Scarecrone doesn't sound like a bad idea postboard as a means of recursion.

[Mockingbird]

I really like the Post lands in this deck. Before I saw them used in this deck, I had pretty much given up on playing MUD after constantly getting blown out by Wastelands. Also, since the lands alone allow you to generate massive amounts of mana, you don't need to play Mox Opal, Mox Diamond, or Lotus Petal which are all terrible draws in the late game.

The important thing to remember about using a Locus mana base is to not use four Vesuva, because though can be worse in the early game. Besides the fact that 12-Post/"Turbo Eldrazi" have cut down to two Vesuva in the recent months, in MUD 4 Vesuva is bad because:

1. MUD doesn't have room for Expedition Map, so assembling a decent Locus base is more difficult. Doable, but not just something that the deck is initially designed for.

2. City of Traitors is so much worse when Vesuva comes into play tapped as anything but a Cloudpost. It's an annoying situation that came up too often when I ran too many Vesuvas.

3. Without Cloudpost, Vesuva itself is a kind of underwhelming card because the land it's copying comes into play tapped. Cloudpost understandable comes into play tapped from a design perspective. Every other land in Legacy does not have the justification of entering the battlefield tapped that I can think of off the top of my head.


That being said, run a few Vesuva. It's a great card to plagiarize other lands. But it's just not justified as a four of.

[Zorker]

A mudpost list from the gp paris trials:


4 Wasteland
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
3 City of Traitors
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Steel Hellkite
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Emperion
4 Tangle Wire
1 All Is Dust
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Voltaic Key
4 Grim Monolith
2 Thran Dynamo
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Bottled Cloister
2 Karn Liberated

Sideboard:

3 Trinisphere
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 All Is Dust
1 Sundering Titan
2 Cursed Totem

[Mockingbird]

A mudpost list from the gp paris trials:


//Lands: 24
4 Wasteland
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
3 City of Traitors
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb

//Creatures: 14
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Platinum Emperion
3 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine

//Artifacts: 20
2 Bottled Cloister
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
4 Tangle Wire
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Thran Dynamo
2 Voltaic Key

//Planeswalkers: 2
2 Karn Liberated

//Soceries: 1
1 All Is Dust

//Sideboard:
3 Trinisphere
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 All Is Dust
1 Sundering Titan
2 Cursed Totem

This is almost like mine. Please tell me more about this deck.

Also, no Metalworker?

[maCHOOga]

FYI there's a MUD article on SCG premium side today!

The take away from the article is that chalice of the void isn't good enough anymore. Wtf? I've got few free wins off of chalice of the void and often it draws a force of will. Which is perfectly fine. Do y'all agree with me?

[Just me]

Chalice is one of the main strengths the deck has imo. A blind t1 Chalice at 2 is still nuts, buying the deck much needed time to get the mana-engine to work, which will win the game. Tangle Wire (which I run) and Trinisphere have a similar effect.

Chalice at 1, some highlights;
Brainstorm + Ponder in many many decks
mana rituals in combo
Removal like Bolt, Path, StP
Discard like Thoughtseize, Duress, IoK
Mana creatures like Deathrite, Birds and Hierarch

Some complete decks like Reanimator.

[Mockingbird]

FYI there's a MUD article on SCG premium side today!

The take away from the article is that chalice of the void isn't good enough anymore. Wtf? I've got few free wins off of chalice of the void and often it draws a force of will. Which is perfectly fine. Do y'all agree with me?

I don't know what to think of the article. I don't have SCG premium.

My thoughts on a Turn 1 Chalice of the Void is that it's only as good as the follow-up. Force or no Force, your opponent is now likely slower because of it, which means we only have stalled until they drop Tarmogoyf (or any other 2 Drop) or break it with Abrupt Decay. And what that means is that against most control decks, if we're on the draw, we've likely only annoyed them, not disrupted them. It's fine, but the question is has there been a meta shift where opponents are playing around Chalice easier.

Personally, I find the rare Turn 1 Trinisphere more disruptive because it means your opponent has to sit on their hands until they get the mana. That however requires Grim Monolith, so I understand that's not something to actively seek.

[Mockingbird]

I'll look over the article in more detail later, but my initial thought is he's right to an extent about the meta evolving beyond the efficiency of T1 Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere. Key phrase though: to an extent.

First, just because Chalice's use has narrowed does not necessitate that it's use has narrowed to the point of being a moot card. To be honest, it means to me that perhaps we should focusing setting other Chalices on higher numbers after the initial one (to draw a comparison, like everyone does with Chalice @ 0 against combo to make sure opponents don't recover after the fact they can't kill you T1 with rocks). My initial point still stands though, Chalice is only as good as it's follow-up.


Second, Blood Moon is only good when people don't see it coming. I play 12-Post and MUD-Post (and have MUD on the side), and I know how to play around Blood Moon. Besides, when being greedy with Mana bases becomes too easily punishable, people will shift the meta by scaling non-basics back for basics and Abrupt Decay the Blood Moon. But also, Chalice makes sure that you have a chance to reach Blood Moon without your opponent sneaking something before Turn 3 or killing Abrupt Decay by warping mana bases.


Third, even though MUD is a difficult deck to evolve with the meta, there are three points against it's inability to not change with the times.
1. We don't exactly have the cards to do so because Wizards has to be careful when designing artifacts. Most of MUD's latest and greatest toys all came with Zendikar-Scars standard block. Wizards tends to keep artifact power levels down because if they work for us, then God help when every other deck picks it up because it's that good (case and point: Sensei's Divining Top). So our card pool is a little niche. But even so, what we have now works well enough for us to remain relevant.
2. MUD has splintered, which is something he doesn't acknowledge in this evolutionary lacking of MUD. In the past year MUD-Post has gone from being a cute idea to a real thing because Cloudpost helps our lines of play beyond combo out with Staff of Domination or Kuldotha Forgemaster to the point to where drawing those scary hard to cast artifacts is not nearly as frustrating as it use to be. I used a Cloudpost+Metalworker to hardcast Blightsteel Colossus Turn 3 last week, which by the way is a bad idea because Swords to Plowshares[cards] is a reason to not do something just to say that you did it. But had that been [cards]Sundering Titan...
3. We have to be careful how we curve because Abrupt Decay catches everything cheap right now. One of the appeals of MUD over say... Painter's Servant is that our Win con.

Fourth, I'm inclined to ask this author that if the meta is shifting the way it has, that perhaps Mental Misstep may be up for an unbanning. Granted Chalice's efficiency is hampered by Abrupt Decay (as is all permanents that it can hit), but I'm getting the sense that's not why he thinks Chalice's use is fading. I get the feeling that he wants to argue that the 1 CMC slot is underwhelming and less important than 2 or 3.

But from my first impression, what I see is the author's point that Chalice of the Void is too narrow to be maindecked as a four of may in itself argue it's point too narrowly. MUD is still showing relevancy as is its new little brother MUD-Post. But I don't want to discount the idea entirely. Perhaps testing MUD without chalice may be a good idea just to at least say to ourselves, "I (dis)agree with his point."

[Grand Superior]

I have premium and have read the article. I can understand some of it's points, but not running Chalice of the Voids in a deck with eight Sol lands and no one-drops just seems too alien to me. MUD abuses Chalice so well that it almost seems wrong to cut it. I know that I'm always happy to see Chalice+Sol land in my opener because it gives us so many free wins. It single-handedly beats Canadian Threshold if it resolves. I've also never been a fan of the combo-tastic, more all-in on Forgemaster type of MUD but that boils down to my personal preferences.

But to be completely honest, I'm starting to question Levin's credibility when it comes to Legacy theory. I mean, I'm happy that he's a dedicated bi-weekly Legacy writer, but recently he bashed the UWR Delver deck a week before Owen won with it at GP DC, called the BUG Delver approach "lacking" the week before it won (for now...) GP Paris, and "introduced" Blue Jund when it was really just a generic BUG Midrange deck AND it was a deck that Reid Duke won an invitational with.

But I'll still watch the videos of him playing the deck later this week. He's been following up his Tuesday articles with a videos of him playing the decks he writes about.

[Alex Holland]

This article is total crap.

The higgest fear of a mud player is a swords to plowshares on your colossus, destroying all ur hard work.

Plus chalice is damn good anyway; delver, deathrite, bolt, mongoose..
Its even better in multiples.

on 2 it destroys merfolk.
On 1 it destroys reanimate.
On 0 it gives ant a hard time.

I like trinisphere too, t1 or t2 its really disruptive. Except its less good late game while a chalice still kills cards out of the game. Chalice is the reason to play mud (+metalworker). It punishes greedy decks.

[Mockingbird]

But to be completely honest, I'm starting to question Levin's credibility when it comes to Legacy theory. I mean, I'm happy that he's a dedicated bi-weekly Legacy writer, but recently he bashed the UWR Delver deck a week before Owen won with it at GP DC, called the BUG Delver approach "lacking" the week before it won (for now...) GP Paris, and "introduced" Blue Jund when it was really just a generic BUG Midrange deck AND it was a deck that Reid Duke won an invitational with.

And interestingly enough, when he speaks of MUD needing to evolve, he misses that MUD-Post already exists and is making semi-regular appearances, one of which won a GP Paris trial and has already been posted here:

//Lands: 24
4 Wasteland
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
3 City of Traitors
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb

//Creatures: 14
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Platinum Emperion
3 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine

//Artifacts: 20
2 Bottled Cloister
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
4 Tangle Wire
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Thran Dynamo
2 Voltaic Key

//Planeswalkers: 2
2 Karn Liberated

//Soceries: 1
1 All Is Dust

//Sideboard:
3 Trinisphere
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 All Is Dust
1 Sundering Titan
2 Cursed Totem

I've been testing this, and while it is much slower since it doesn't have an "Oops, eat Blightsteel", it has a long game because Holy cow! Cloudpost is a great card against control, which is dominating at the moment. Although, I don't know if this is technically MUD since it lacks Metalworker and Forgemaster. It plays more like a colorless control deck.

[Alex Holland]

Why wouldnt it have blightsteel? Instead of 3 hellkites it could also run 3 forgemaster to keep that lonely sundering titan company.. and why 2 thran and no worker? Yes worker is vunerable but its 3 mana wich is huge.

Anyway cloudpost is horrible, a abomination. But i do love my pimp japanese workers so i might be biased.

[Mockingbird]

Why wouldnt it have blightsteel? Instead of 3 hellkites it could also run 3 forgemaster to keep that lonely sundering titan company.. and why 2 thran and no worker? Yes worker is vunerable but its 3 mana wich is huge.

Anyway cloudpost is horrible, a abomination. But i do love my pimp japanese workers so i might be biased.

I've played Cloudpost in Legacy since Jeremiah Rudolph made second place in October 2012, so consequently my two go to decks are :u::g: 12-Post and MUD-Post. So the bias may also exist on my part.

That being said, this deck that topped right here is the first MUD-Post I've seen or played without both Metalworker or Kuldotha Forgemaster. Also, maining Bottled Cloister is risky because your opponent can nail your hand with Vindicate or Maelstrom Pulse. One thing I noticed though is that it's better at recovery than traditional MUD when it gets the steam knocked out of it because Cloudpost is harder to hit than people think. Four Wasteland isn't going to go as far as you think unless a Crucible of Worlds or Life of Loam is involved, and even then, any MUD player is in an uphill battle.

I'm not even sure if this is technically even MUD, but I see potential.

[Grand Superior]

i actually just bought the Bottled Cloisters and will try 1-2 in my MUD-Post list. Thanks to it costing 4 mana, it nicely dodges Abrupt Decay and I don't foresee it being destroyed too often because answers to stuff like that are few and far between (though admittedly there's more to worry about postboard) and sometimes the stax plan will prevent them from doing anything about it. It just seems to be more reasonable, mana-cost wise, than Staff of Nin.

[Alex Holland]

i actually just bought the Bottled Cloisters and will try 1-2 in my MUD-Post list. Thanks to it costing 4 mana, it nicely dodges Abrupt Decay and I don't foresee it being destroyed too often because answers to stuff like that are few and far between (though admittedly there's more to worry about postboard) and sometimes the stax plan will prevent them from doing anything about it. It just seems to be more reasonable, mana-cost wise, than Staff of Nin.

Absolutly. I think staff of nin doesnt do enough for six mana, ocasionnaly pinging a 1 toughness doesnt cut it.
I did try cloudpost build but i became very frustrated with the come into play tapped lands.

Maybe u tangle wire dudes should take a look at storage matrix, seems a legit obstacle in such a build.

This what i play now:

4 city of traitors
4 mishra factory
4 cavern
4 ancient tomb
4 wasteland
2 petrified field

4 metalworker
4 kuldotha forgemaster
4 lodestone golem
1 steel hellkite
3 wurmcoil engine
1 blightsteel colossus
1 platinum emperion
3 phyrexian revoker

4 grim monolith
2 thran dynamo
3 ratchet bomb
4 chalice of the void
2 trinisphere
1 staff of domination
1 karn liberated

[kingtk3]

I've read the article, and while it seems to bring some good points it completely fails when talking about the side: so now the answer to combo is tangle wire and not chalice of the void? Basically ANY combo deck has an hard time (or scoops) to chalice@1. Even decks like sneak and show (which don't automatically lose) are stripped of all their manipulation, giving us the time to win.

I almost felt for that :(

Chalice@1 is not an hardlock, it's a preemptive answer to the most efficient legacy spells, which most decks are composed of.

If the author fears stoneforge based decks and thinks that the solution is to play more dumb 6 mana spells clearly have never played a wurmcoil to see it sworded, and when you are left topdecking the opponent manipulates its draws with ponder and brainstorm. Chalice@1 solves all of them.

[(nameless one)]

I agree that Chalice @ 1 doesn't really win games anymore but the same argument goes to Swords to Plowshares.

Swords to Plowshare isn't a catch all creature removal anymore but decks still run it because it still does its work for the most part.

[gregtron]

I would use specific decks.

Storm Combo for instance is too broad(as well graveyard strategy which bruizar explained). I haven't played with MUD much so I may be wrong here, but aren't TES/ANT easier matchups while belcher and High Tide decks tougher matchups?

Kind of. TES and Belcher will often roll you because of how fast they are, but it's not like you can't do degenerate stuff like turn 1 Trinisphere, Chalice, etc. The ANT matchup should be much easier because they're a couple turns slower, but they're going to spend more time picking apart your hand with Therapy and Thoughtseize (which can be rough for MUD). High Tide, though? No clue. They take a while to go off, but they pack a fair amount of permission. I haven't seen a High Tide player in a LONG time, though.

[kingtk3]

The biggest advantage of high tide is that it can wish for hurkyl's recall or rebuild and clean our board the eot before the turn they go off, and it doesn't care about life points (unlike TES or ANT that play ad nauseam): if you don't put some pressure you can end up dead even if you lay multiple resistors.

But the deck is indeed quite rare.

[biglongjohns]

Here is my updated list:
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
4 Trinisphere
1 Staff of Nin
1 Staff of Domination
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Karn Liberated

3 Cavern of Souls
3 Wasteland
2 Vesuva
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

Sideboard:
2 All Is Dust
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Spine of Ish Sah
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Witchbane Orb
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Angel

I went 3-1 in my local tournament tonight beating Jund Lands, Hypergenesis, and UW Weathered Wayfarer.dec. My one loss was to BUG Delver. I am having difficulty with this matchup.

Without suggesting to change my 75, can anyone help me sideboard vs. BUG decks? I usually side in a lot of cards but never really know what to take out. I would typically do something like this:
-4 Trinisphere
-1 Spine of Ish Sah
-1 Staff of Nin
-4 ???
+2 All Is Dust (needs o explanation)
+2 Ratchet Bomb (helps kill early delver or DRS)
+3 Phyrexian Revoker (naming DRS or Liliana)
+2 Witchbane Orb (cuz Hymn/TS are a beating)
+1 Sundering Titan (destroys this deck)

I think Trinisphere can be bad in this matchup as they play DRS and don't care too much about paying 3 for spells. Spine and Staff seem like fine cards to be replaced by better cards. I've tried siding out 4x Chalice of the Void on the draw as it doesn't kill a Delver that they played on their first turn. However, Chalice at 2 can blank Hymn and Goyf. Any thoughts?

[Alex Holland]

I agree that Chalice @ 1 doesn't really win games anymore but the same argument goes to Swords to Plowshares.

Swords to Plowshare isn't a catch all creature removal anymore but decks still run it because it still does its work for the most part.


If i play a card that takes more then 1 card of my opponent out of the game im winning. Thats magic right?

Plus the best removal is 1 mana in legacy.

Burn dies from it too lol

[MGB]

Here is my updated list:
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
4 Trinisphere
1 Staff of Nin
1 Staff of Domination
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Karn Liberated

3 Cavern of Souls
3 Wasteland
2 Vesuva
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

Sideboard:
2 All Is Dust
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Spine of Ish Sah
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Witchbane Orb
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Angel

I went 3-1 in my local tournament tonight beating Jund Lands, Hypergenesis, and UW Weathered Wayfarer.dec. My one loss was to BUG Delver. I am having difficulty with this matchup.

Without suggesting to change my 75, can anyone help me sideboard vs. BUG decks? I usually side in a lot of cards but never really know what to take out. I would typically do something like this:
-4 Trinisphere
-1 Spine of Ish Sah
-1 Staff of Nin
-4 ???
+2 All Is Dust (needs o explanation)
+2 Ratchet Bomb (helps kill early delver or DRS)
+3 Phyrexian Revoker (naming DRS or Liliana)
+2 Witchbane Orb (cuz Hymn/TS are a beating)
+1 Sundering Titan (destroys this deck)

I think Trinisphere can be bad in this matchup as they play DRS and don't care too much about paying 3 for spells. Spine and Staff seem like fine cards to be replaced by better cards. I've tried siding out 4x Chalice of the Void on the draw as it doesn't kill a Delver that they played on their first turn. However, Chalice at 2 can blank Hymn and Goyf. Any thoughts?


BUG Delver is ridiculously good. I think right now it's far and away the best deck in the format. You can't really expect to go more than 40/60 against that deck with anything, so what I've found is that the key is to survive into the mid-game when MUD's bombs are simply better than anything an opposing aggro deck can play. The key is survival. I like to play Tangle Wire in the main over Trinisphere as it helps a bit vs. opposing aggro decks like Delver with few permanents.

[Mr. Froggy]

One of my favorite opening plays is Chalice on 1 turn one...

[maCHOOga]

Just curious, has anyone ever tried brewing either a Blue or Green splash MUD deck? Similar to the welder version.

Blue gives you access to:
Treasure Mage
Thoughtcast
Ancient ruins
Back to Basics lol!!

Green gives you access to:
Ancient Stirrings
Krosan Grip
Beast Within

[kingofethanol]

Just curious, has anyone ever tried brewing either a Blue or Green splash MUD deck? Similar to the welder version.

Blue gives you access to:
Treasure Mage
Thoughtcast
Ancient ruins
Back to Basics lol!!

Green gives you access to:
Ancient Stirrings
Krosan Grip
Beast Within

I have heard of green lists with Sylvan Library and Seal of Primordium. Seal can be better than Krosan Grip because you're usually trying to cast those cards with a Tree of Tales or a Mox, and those get shut off by Stony Silence/Null Rod. However that would imply that you would need to 1) have a green source 2) find and resolve the Seal before Rod hits play. I don't think it is worth tying up mana to add these benefits.

I have tried blue with Thirst for Knowledge (w/ Trinisphere) and Thoughtcast (w/o Trinisphere). I did like them during the short period I played them. However I just got tired of not having a blue source consistently, so I dropped them. They were really good when they were good and really bad when they were bad. There wasn't really an in between.

The argument against Stirrings is that it's CMC1 (Chalice) and that this isn't GR Tron - the deck is not trying to assemble a very specific collection of cards. Same goes for Treasure Mage. If you want another threat, just add another artifact to your deck.

[biglongjohns]

For anyone who has tried a singleton Platinum Angel in the sideboard, against what decks would this card be sided? Maybe death and taxes? I'm undecided if it deserves a slot in the board.

[maCHOOga]

I've played either Platinum Angel or Platinum Emperion in my board.

The trade off is this: Angel is a clock, however dies to more removal (dismember). Emperion has a bigger butt which let's him live longer but there's times when he can't attack into army of dudes.

Death and taxes is tricky in general. As they can swords either or if you try to equip a greaves, they revoke it.

[Mr. Froggy]

For anyone who has tried a singleton Platinum Angel in the sideboard, against what decks would this card be sided? Maybe death and taxes? I'm undecided if it deserves a slot in the board.

I usually set Chalice on 1, and blank removal.

[Alex Holland]

Most fun EVER is t1 chalice at 1 t2 chalice at 2.

I see city of traitors jumped to $80 now so cloudpostmanabase should become more attractive for new MUDers..

Mainly city jumped because painter servant won a starcity event. I love blood moon as sort of a random oops i win card, maybe ill try to merge the decks once more. Kuldotha can tutor both painter and grindstone. Should be fun. Something like this?

4# painter servant
3# phyrexian revoker
4# kuldotha forgemaster
4# goblin welder
1# blightsteel colossus

4# grindstone
3# gamble
4# blood moon
4# trinisphere
3# lotus petal
4# pyroblast
2# red elemental blast

4# ancient tomb
4# city of traitors
4# cavern of souls
4# great furnace
4# mountain

[whatwas]

Most fun EVER is t1 chalice at 1 t2 chalice at 2.

I see city of traitors jumped to $80 now so cloudpostmanabase should become more attractive for new MUDers..

Mainly city jumped because painter servant won a starcity event. I love blood moon as sort of a random oops i win card, maybe ill try to merge the decks once more. Kuldotha can tutor both painter and grindstone. Should be fun. Something like this?

4# painter servant
3# phyrexian revoker
4# kuldotha forgemaster
4# goblin welder
1# blightsteel colossus

4# grindstone
3# gamble
4# blood moon
4# trinisphere
3# lotus petal
4# pyroblast
2# red elemental blast

4# ancient tomb
4# city of traitors
4# cavern of souls
4# great furnace
4# mountain

Interesting

Sent from my LGMS500 using Tapatalk

[sloppyjoe]

Most fun EVER is t1 chalice at 1 t2 chalice at 2.

I see city of traitors jumped to $80 now so cloudpostmanabase should become more attractive for new MUDers..

Mainly city jumped because painter servant won a starcity event. I love blood moon as sort of a random oops i win card, maybe ill try to merge the decks once more. Kuldotha can tutor both painter and grindstone. Should be fun. Something like this?

4# painter servant
3# phyrexian revoker
4# kuldotha forgemaster
4# goblin welder
1# blightsteel colossus

4# grindstone
3# gamble
4# blood moon
4# trinisphere
3# lotus petal
4# pyroblast
2# red elemental blast

4# ancient tomb
4# city of traitors
4# cavern of souls
4# great furnace
4# mountain



I had this deck in mind when I ended up going the UR painted stone route, knowing I wanted to find a home for goblin welder in legacy (a travesty that there isn't one).

The cool thing about going the forgemaster route with grindstone is that you can put the grindstone activation on the stack and sac it to the forgemaster to get painter and profit. Same shenanigans with welder as well.

I don't know about the blood moons, though I love the idea, just think the deck might need more artifacts. MD blasts are a stellar plan right now as well.

[Zorker]

A mud deck made 4-0 in a dayli!!!:
Lands:

4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
3 Wasteland

Creatures:
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Steel Hellkite
3 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine

Artifacts:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Karn Liberated
1 Staff of Domination
1 Staff of Nin
4 Trinisphere

Sideboard
2 All Is Dust
2 Duplicant
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Spine of Ish Sah
3 Tormod's Crypt

[Alex Holland]

This was bound to happen. Last tournament delver and canadian trash did well, they are both extremely fragile when facing chalice and trinisphere so the meta is excellent for mud at this moment i think. Lets see how far this guy can take it.

[Zorker]

i was thinking of taking mud to a local event 40 people, aside from5 people unknown meta.

[darkghost]

What do we have against reanimator that goes off the first or second turn, when they chose to play? Against Tidespout Tyrant
(MUD-post or non-splashed MUD)

[Water_Wizard]

What do we have against reanimator that goes off the first or second turn, when they chose to play? Against Tidespout Tyrant
(MUD-post or non-splashed MUD)

Tormod's Crypt
Relic of Progenitus
Nihil Spellbomb
Grafdigger's Cage (shuts down certain angles w/ Kuldotha)
Surgical Extraction
Ravenous Trap (not recommended)
Phyrexian Metamorph (copy guy)
Spine of Ish Sah (stops Show and Tell)
Leyline of the Void

W/ Tidespout, 3Sphere would go a long way to preventing cheap spells from being played. You could always blast Tidespout in the R splash versions.

EDIT: Dismember is also a very real way to handle Tidespout. However, the best route is to never let it see play.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Turn 1 on the play nothing. Turn 2, the above list with the emphasis on Trinisphere. That card is awesome.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Barsoom]

I use Faerie Macabre against graveyard decks, uncounterable and it works under your own Trinisphere/Chalice of the Void.

[darkghost]

Thank you for the help.

Lots of option for GY hate. But when something came into play, I only relied on metamorph or more pressure. When I couldn't resolve a metamorph (no 3sphere in battlefield), the tyrant became nasty, even making Ensnaring Bridge useless.

Now I am thinking of those Faerie Macabres, they seems like a good choice for removing small number of cards for fast and free and uncouterable too. Plus it works when they try to go off the first turn with petal.

[Bonk]

Hi everyone. First, here's my list

MD :
3 Phyrexian revoker
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kudoltha Forgemaster
4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere
4 Grim Monolith
4 Lightning Greaves
1 Bottle Cloister

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva

SB :
1 Torpor Orb
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 All is Dust
1 Duplicant
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Summoning Trap
1 Karn, Liberated


UR Delver
-2 Trinisphere, -3 Revoker
+2 Trap, +3 Thorn


ANT
-3 Wurm, -1 Titan
+4 Thorn


BUG Shardless
-1 Colossus, -1 Cotv
+ 2 All is dust


BUG Tempo
-3 Revoker,
+2 Trap, +1 Thorn


Dredge
-1 Titan, -2 Trinisphere, -2 Revoker
+3 Crypt, +2 Thorn of Amethyst


Elfes
-1 Titan, -2 Wurm
+1 Torpor Orb, +2 All is Dust


Jund
-2 Trinisphère, -1 Revoker
+2 All is Dust, +1 Duplicant


Miracle
-4 Wurm, -1 Greaves
+4 Thorn, +1 Karn


Omni-Tell
-3 Revoker, -2 Wurm, - 1 Titan
+4 Thorn, + 1 Spine, + 1 Trap



Sneak-Show
-4 Wurm, -3 Greaves
+4 Thorn, +1 Spine, +1 Duplicant, +1 Karn


Esper-Blade
-1 Revoker
+1 Torpor orb


Spiral Tide
-3 Revoker, -1 Titan, -1 Hellkite, -1 Wurm
+4 Thorn, +2 Trap


Reanimator
-3 Revoker, -2 Greaves, -2 Wurm
+4 Thorn, +3 Crypt


Merfolks
-2 Revoker, -1 Cloister, -1 titan
+2 Trap, +2 All is dust


Painter
-1 Titan, -1 Cloister, -1 Monolith
+1 Orb, +1 Karn, +1 Spine

I play this list for a while, and it works pretty well. (this is inspired from winning lists in France). I chose the 12 post land cause it seems more reliable to me. (but less explosives) I just've put back the cloister instead of the staff of domination, cause it's nearly always an awful topdeck.

But I have questions for sideboarding. the third has been deleted, cause I never need to side it in. So I put Karn, for only 2 match-ups (miracle and S&T). Perhaps I'll change it, buy I dont 'see the good replacvement card for the moment. Have you got ideas ? (I thought about ratchet bomb, but it destroy my chalice plan)

Please do you see mistakes in this table ? Do you see changes I should do ?

Most of my questionnings are against painter.deck and jund. the match-up is a 50/50 for painter, and hard for jund, and I wanna increase it. how do you play against those decks ? What are your strategies and objectives ? what would be your sideboarding techniques ?

does somenone tried platinum angel ? I thinking of triying in place of one wurm..

thanks

[Etched]

How good/reliable is the Welder version nowadays? Been thinking of working on this as my next legacy project.

[Mockingbird]

How good/reliable is the Welder version nowadays? Been thinking of working on this as my next legacy project.

You get Blood Moon with Goblin Welder which is a plus, but I think right now with how explosive Chalice of the Void set to 1 is, the Locus mana base has taken off because it makes a better game follow up because of steady mana. I've never played Red MUD, but I have seen it played by a friend, and what I can say is that it has (or better have) a strong early game because it tends to struggle more mid game that MUD-Post.

[kingtk3]

...
Most of my questionnings are against painter.deck and jund. the match-up is a 50/50 for painter, and hard for jund, and I wanna increase it. how do you play against those decks ? What are your strategies and objectives ? what would be your sideboarding techniques ?


Painter folds to chalice@1, and even if they have managed to play a grindstone before your chalice you can name it with revoker. Also, colossus gives you at least one turn even if they combo off.
If you still feel you need to improve the matchup you could use some ratchet bombs because they are the cheapest removal this deck can afford. Cards like witchbane orb or platinum angel aren't very good because you would need to fetch them with forgemaster, but in that case you should win directly. However, note that adding a second colossus will force a tie in case of being milled.

Jund: put it simply, they cannot beat a wurmcoil engine, they cannot beat an hellkite, lodestone hampers their plan and messes with their cascades, titan just wrecks them. The worst card against jund is chalice because their CC are nicely distribuited, but in your side I don't see anything relevant to bring instead; however i don't find this matchup as bad as you.
If you find some space you could add a pair of batterskull or ratchet bombs (@2 they kill bobs and goyfs which is nice).

Hope it can help.

[Bonk]

yep. really helpful. I'll try that this WE.

[snurly]

Played first game of Legacy today, ran the following list.

Main:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Wasteland
2 Vesuva

4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Sundering Titan
2 Steel Hellkite
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
1 Staff of Nin

Sideboard:
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 All is Dust
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Karn Liberated
1 Spine of Ish Sah

Played 4 rounds and went 1 - 3. I don't have good notes on sideboarding, but I'm hoping for some help with adjusting the deck to what I played.

Match 1: Some kinda Junk deck
Won 2 - 1. Saw lots of Deathrite Shamans, Abrupt Decays, STPs and even an Oblivion Ring. Won on the back of Relic and Sundering Titan.

Match 2: Elves
Lost 1 - 2. First game Steel Hellkite was a house, destroying all his 1 drops. Games 2 and 3 he boarded in mostly 2 and 3 drops elves.

Match 3: Dredge
Lost 0 - 2. After board, couldn't find a Relic or Ratchet Bomb for the tokens. Lost to Dread Returned Flayer of the Hatebound, Dread Returned Golgari Grave-Troll for 12 and then Cabal Therapy sac-ing Flayer for the undying.

Match 4: UR control?
Lost 1 - 2: Playing tons of counters, a top (no counterbalance) V Clique and snap caster and bolt. In addition to Force's, Pierce's and Daze, I got Spell Snared and Counterspelled. Bolt took care of Metalwokers and Lodestones.

So that was my first experience playing Legacy. Tons of fun, but hoping for a better showing next time. Any advice much appreciated.

[darkghost]

I really just got back into Magic again and Metalworker has always been my favorite deck.

Just wanted to know if MUD with Smokestack has been broken yet. Smokestack is quite slow but can be a very good removal.
Any suggestions?

For reference, I'm currently running (nameless one)'s list on page 68.
I'm not liking the Mox Diamonds on the list since Sphere of Resistance means we need a more reliable source. Also, I find myself siding in the Ratchet Bombs a lot vs aggro sort of decks.

I'm also working on the red splash and seeing if blue would help somehow.
Intuition
Gifts Ungiven
From an initial look, they seem slow.

[maCHOOga]

Hi All,

I've been tinkering back and forth with and without the cloud post vs. red mana base. Here's my two cents about it and a brief tournament report....

In a three round tournament midweek I played the cloud post version. In the course of three rounds (6 games total), I was wastelanded a total of 12 times, ending stranded with a handful of threats. I was thoroughly disgusted and said...dang it, I'm going to play the welder version at the upcoming monthly tournament. I played a legacy FNM practice and went 1-2 again, loosing to both deathblade and UW moat/Jace tms. I did live the dream of putting a blightsteel off of an opponents show and tell, playing a Batterskull and equipping on my turn and defeating Emrakul with blightsteel in combat.

After more tweaks, I ended up coming in 2nd with my only loss to a SCG legacy open champion playing lands in the finals. It's no 4x tropical island, but 4x verdant catacombs will do. If only I could use those fetches in my deck! :-)

Here is my Decklist:

Goblin Welder 4
Kuldotha Forgemaster 4
Metalworker 4
Lodestone Golem 3
Blightsteel Colossus 1
Sundering Titan 1
Wurmcoil Engine 1
Myr Battlesphere 1
Steel Hellkite 1
Godo, Bandit Warlord 1
Platinum Emperion 1

Chalice of the Void 4
Lightning Greaves 2
Grim Monolith 4
Mox Opal 2
Spine of Ish Sah 1
Thousand-Year Elixir 1
Staff of Domination 1
Batterskull 1
Bottled Cloister 1

Darksteel Citadel 2
Great Furnace 4
Ancient Tomb 4
Cavern of Souls 3
City of Traitors 4
Wasteland 4

**Sideboard**
Bottled Cloister 1
Tormod's Crypt 2
Crucible of Worlds 1
Ensnaring Bridge 2
Phyrexian Revoker 2
Spine of Ish Sah 1
Ratchet Bomb 2
All is Dust 2
Duplicant 2

*~*~* Express tournament report*~*~*
Round 1 Reanimator 1-0 (2-0 games)
G1: Opponent accidentally reanimated too much and kills himself off of his own spell. Lol
G2: resolve turn 2 chalice on 1, with daze mana backup.

Round 2 U/W Miracles (2-1 games)
G1: welder equipped with Batterskull ends game after 3 terminus
G2: Jace TMS locked me
G3: Turn 1 ancient tomb into double monolith into bottled cloister. Endless robots do job.

Round 3 BUG Delver (2-0) games
G1: Resolve turn 2 chalice with daze backup, blightsteel them
G2: A ratchet bomb and life gain gets me there

Rounds 4 and 5, intentional draw to top 8. Enter top 8 in 4th seed.

Top8 - Stoneblade 4-0-2 (2-0)
G1: Turn 4 blightsteel, gg
G2: power out a Myr Battlesphere with greaves, set opponent to 8 life. He casts humility and dies to 1/1s myrs.

Top4 - Oops All Spells 5-0-2 (2-0)
*i was terrified! and I was expecting to loose, get a Bayou and go home happy. He was also 1st seed, so starts on the play.*
G1: We both get unlucky and mulligan to 5. He goes turn 1, draw pass. I got turn 1, ancient tomb, chalice on 0. Turn 2 he passes, I play city of traitors, lodestone golem. Best mulligan to 5 ever!!!
G2: We both mulligan to 6, He goes turn 1, chrome mox, imprint cabal ritual. I read chrome mox approximately 3 times look at my hand and have a evil grin. Ancient tomb into phyrexian Revoker, name chrome mox. We both draw go until I drop a forge master start swinging.
My opponent was happy to have gone that far, dodge the force of will decks and end with a Bayou.

Top2 - Lands
G1: I get a forgemaster online, set chalice to 2 and blightsteel him.
G2: I got turbo dark depths and die on his turn 4.
G3: here's where things get crazy....Turn 3 dark depths gets activated and I have one turn to do something or die. I look at my hand and drop both ensaring bridges in my hand, as I didn't want to die to a Kgrip on untap. I'm going to force a double Krosan grip to victory. That Marit Lage just hangs out for the rest of the game, in play as a spectator. A few turns later I cast platinum Emperion and I forget to equip greaves (brainfart)! Emperion dies soon afterwards to Kgrip. I draw forgemaster, it lives the turn and I activate it in response to the 3rd punishing fire. I look throught the deck see a whole lot of nothing and have to make a choice between a chalice, tormods crypt or a crucible of worlds. I think for a few minutes and get crucible. I then start wastelanding grove of the Burnwillows. Between loam and explorations, I fall behind on the burn the Burnwillows plan. Eventually I end up with dark steel citadels and a city of traitors in play. He dredges all of his remaining Krosan Grips while I'm stuck on a loop of citadels being tapped and the same city of traitors coming in and out of play. Over the course of of these turns I'm slowly getting burned out by punishing fire. Chalice of the Void x4 are missing the whole game lol. Also, I took out cloisters so I wouldn't accidentally get hosed.

Reflection: I was estatic with my performance. The welder version seems less explosive but more consistent. Unfortunately I was never able to Godo anyone over the course of the day. I think that there should be a Staff of Nin in the SB, even if I have no way to untap it. Also I didn't miss trinisphere in the 75. And yes goblin welder dies 98% of the time and doesn't do a lot. I really like maindeck cloister and I haven't been blown out by it yet. I'm aware it's bound to happen someday.

cheers!

[Mockingbird]

What are thoughts on playing Phyrexian Revoker in the Mainboard. It's been a huge success in other mana intense decks (namely 12-Post), so I was curious what other players thoughts were on it.

[kingtk3]

What are thoughts on playing Phyrexian Revoker in the Mainboard. It's been a huge success in other mana intense decks (namely 12-Post), so I was curious what other players thoughts were on it.

I always played at least 3 main (with the fourth in the side): the card is strong, it's another kind of lock that comes down fast and complements the deck's strategy, and almost every deck has a good target (planeswalker, petals, led, shamans, vial, equipment, sneak attack, griselbrand, top just to name a few).

That said, I used to play the stompy version.

[darkghost]

What are thoughts on playing Phyrexian Revoker in the Mainboard. It's been a huge success in other mana intense decks (namely 12-Post), so I was curious what other players thoughts were on it.

I use 3 in my main too. Used mostly to shutdown Planeswalkers and Griselbrand. But has a lot more that it can shutdown.

If Chalice is not online, it can slow down elves from generating loads of mana early and stop them from drawing lots of cards.

You can temporarily stop Grindstone from the combo especially if you have greaves successfully equipped on it.

[Scott]

An interesting take on MUD was posted today, 8th in a 60-person a month ago.

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13084&iddeck=96023

// Creatures
2 Steel Hellkite
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
4 Wurmcoil Engine

// Artifacts
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Ratchet Bomb
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire

// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland


// Sideboard
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 3 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 3 Silent Arbiter
SB: 2 Duplicant
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb

[Mr. Froggy]

An interesting take on MUD was posted today, 8th in a 60-person a month ago.

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13084&iddeck=96023

// Creatures
2 Steel Hellkite
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
4 Wurmcoil Engine

// Artifacts
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Ratchet Bomb
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire

// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland


// Sideboard
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 3 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 3 Silent Arbiter
SB: 2 Duplicant
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb

Isn't this (nameless one)'s list?

[darkghost]

Isn't this (nameless one)'s list?


4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Mishra's Factory
3 City of Traitors
3 Vesuva
3 Wasteland

4 Mox Diamond
3 Grim Monolith

4 Lodestone Golem
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
1 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Spellskite
2 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Duplicant
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Wurmcoil Engine

This was (Nameless One)'s list before he started experimenting on Smokestacks. It could be him... :really:

Thank you for the list. I was looking for a Smokestacks build.

[(nameless one)]

That's not me but kudos to the person that top8ed with it. I haven't really tested the deck in a while now due to busy schedule.

As for my version of Smokestack, it was also running Ensnaring Bridge. The reason behind it Bridge is if you can't dominate the board, stall it. Smokestacks and Forgemaster should get rid of the Bridge if you need to get through with Wurmcoil, Hellkites or Colossus.

[Sleight]

Hey all! About to go to my first small legacy event. I've played solitaire with myself a bunch with my list. I feel pretty strong with the main board. I unfortunately have only guesses on how to sideboard. Here is my list.
Lands
3 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
2 Vesuva
3 Cavern of Souls
24 Lands

Creatures
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Steel Hellkite
4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Lodestone Golem
19 Creatures

Spells
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
1 Staff of Domination
2 Staff of Nin
2 Lightning Greaves
17 Other Spells

Sideboard
1 Spine of Ish Sah
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Duplicant
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 All Is Dust
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Spellskite



There should only be around 10 people playing tonight. Any last minute changes someone more experienced with deck would do?

Thanks a bunch!!

[darkghost]

Hey all! About to go to my first small legacy event. I've played solitaire with myself a bunch with my list. I feel pretty strong with the main board. I unfortunately have only guesses on how to sideboard. Here is my list.

There should only be around 10 people playing tonight. Any last minute changes someone more experienced with deck would do?

Thanks a bunch!!

Board is always meta dependent. Try to see what people are playing when you get there.

You hated Reanimator already.
If you see more Show and Tell players, add in another Spine in your board.
UW Miracles, don't know, I think Trinispheres are enough already.
If you see Maverick, you may have to add another Ratchet Bomb against Teeg.

Also, it is dependent on how you play your main cards in game 2 and 3.
When I get the feeling they are siding in Ancient Grudges, I make sure to have Chalice at 2 or get a faster race on.
When you feel like they are siding in more removals to add to their StP, which may be PtE, and you get a feel they have one in their hand, you may have to hold back fatties in your hand until you have Chalice at 1 active or bait them with smaller beaters.

Overall, I think you'll do good. Good luck!

[Sleight]

Thanks for the pointers. Unfortunately last nights event got canceled. I did get to play against a tin fins list though. Played three games and essentially locked out first two games with chalice on one. The last game was t1 monolith to trinisphere, scoop.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

[Secretly.A.Bee]

As a tin fins player, MUD is the exact reason (along with CB) for my running 2-3 serenity in my sideboard. I'm guessing he wasn't, otherwise I don't think he would have scooped.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Sleight]

Must not have been running them I guess. Since there isn't much of a legacy group in my area I feel like their sideboards must just be set up without MUD in mind. If that is the case I should be looking pretty good once I actually get a chance to play here.

[darkghost]

I'm definitely liking Smokestacks in my deck. It is still a situational card though.

Just as a side deck idea, its interesting to see Sundial of the Infinite work in decks.


Sundial of the Infinite
Stifle
Smokestack
Eater of Days
Phyrexian Dreadnought
Parallax Wave
Parallax Tide


Just to mention a small amount.

[nerv2004]

Hi all.

I've lost a bit of faith in the post version and I'm going back to welder mud. Im interested in hearing peoples opinions on which is better, mox diamond, mox opal and lotus petal? My theory is petal is better but then again i haven't played welder in ages!

Also, is faithless looting/gamble worth it? Ive only seen a few lists running them but the theory checks out.

For context my meta is mainly jund, delver and s&s with a scattering of combo decks eg high tide and ant.

[Mockingbird]

I've lost a bit of faith in the post version and I'm going back to welder mud.

As probably one of the biggest advocates for Cloudpost out there, I can say that I do feel for pain. While MUD-Post is one of my two primary decks (my second being 12-Post... there's a pattern here), there are times when I feel like it's just not working out, so I go back and forth between them. My one request is keep Cloudpost in mind because it comes in and out of favor.

==And now for a double update==
----First Update----
First, semi-related to what I just posted above, MUD-Post ranked third at SCG Charlotte today. Congratulations to Gregg Spano for making such a good ranking. So MUD has another ranking to tuck into its belt. Link (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=65491).

List:
//Lands: 24
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Wasteland

//Creatures:19
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
3 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine

//Planeswalkers: 2
2 Karn Liberated

//Artifacts: 15
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Staff Of Domination
1 Staff of Nin
4 Trinisphere

//Sideboard
1 Batterskull
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Trading Post
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Platinum Angel
2 All Is Dust

Things to note:

No Steel Hellkite, Duplicant, or Cavern of Souls. Instead he opted for the full 12-Post base, doubled down on Staff of Domination, and... Trading Post? I'm curious to see what comes of this latest ranking because while it's pretty close to the stock MUD-Post list, there are some slight variables that intrigued me.

And my personal opinion, while I don't entirely know what to make of this list, Cavern of Souls is usually something I don't skimp out on because it makes Sundering Titan a blow-out for sure against control.

----Second Update----

For those that remembered, last month there was a bit of a stir on this forum when StarCityGames writer Drew Levin wrote an article calling for a revolution in MUD, centering around the claim that the meta had shifted away from one of our most favorite plays: Turn 1 Chalice of the Void @ 1 counter. Most of us didn't have premium so we either read the bootlegged article before it was removed from this site or heard things about it second hand. That article has now been released to the public, and if there're are any more desires to discuss it, we can discuss the article in full, and here is the Link (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27941_Metalworker.html) to do so. My personal opinion hasn't changed on it.

It's a thought-provoking idea but wrong, wrong, wrong.

[nerv2004]

As probably one of the biggest advocates for Cloudpost out there, I can say that I do feel for pain. While MUD-Post is one of my two primary decks (my second being 12-Post... there's a pattern here), there are times when I feel like it's just not working out, so I go back and forth between them. My one request is keep Cloudpost in mind because it comes in and out of favor.


Yeah the post list is obviously powerful as seen by greg and ali yesterday and today. My main issue is sometimes it will just fold to itself more than the other versions because of the higher curve and increase prison pieces. Who here hasn't locked themselves up with a 3sphere hahaha.

Yeah greg did awesome today. Ali aintrazi finished 12th in the legacy portion of scg charlotte today also with gregs exact list. He had the r9 feature with one of the uw miricles players and lost out narrowly keeping a 3x ancient tomb hand (cried a little).

Re the levins article (which is still and excellent read), im going to rip off chris vanmeter and drop this knowledge bomb
Chalice on 1 stops the following:
Brainstorm
Ponder
Preordain
Swords to Plowshares
Path to Exile
Surgical Extraction
Deathrite Shaman
Aether Vial
Thoughtseize
Inquisition of Kozilek
Spell Pierce
Cabal Therapy
Entomb
Reanimate
Faithless Looting (both halves!)
Careful Study
Putrid Imp
Dark Ritual
Rite of Flame
Duress
Gitaxian Probe
Nimble Mongoose
Delver of Secrets
Stifle
Grim Lavamancer
The majority of Burn (Lava Spike, Lightning Bolt, Goblin Guide, etc.)
The majority of Elves

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/25960_Metalworking-At-The-Invitational.html

I will keep chalice as a 4x thank you very much :D

[kingtk3]

Chalice is invaluable and the first reason to play this deck to begin with.

[maCHOOga]

Chalice is invaluable and the first reason to play this deck to begin with.

Agreed the amount of free wins with chalice set to 1 is astounding. And if you really want to spice it up, play tangle wire and tap both chalice and tangle wire for infinite value! :-)

[CaptainTwiddle]

Hi all.

I've lost a bit of faith in the post version and I'm going back to welder mud. Im interested in hearing peoples opinions on which is better, mox diamond, mox opal and lotus petal? My theory is petal is better but then again i haven't played welder in ages!

Also, is faithless looting/gamble worth it? Ive only seen a few lists running them but the theory checks out.

For context my meta is mainly jund, delver and s&s with a scattering of combo decks eg high tide and ant.

I think that Welder MUD might become a bit better as Post MUD begins to appear on more peoples' radar (which it may well do after the decent showings at recent SCG events).

As for the merits of Mox Diamond, Mox Opal, and Lotus Petal, I actually run one of each in my Welder list. Opal is the most powerful in the abstract, but it's unlikely to generate mana on turn one to any significant effect. Mox Diamond is nice and you often will end up with a spare land in hand because of reluctance to sac a City of Traitors in play, but one land hands aren't wholly uncommon with the 21-22 land Welder lists. Lotus Petal is nice for a number of more subtle reasons. It allows you to get metalcraft for an Opal on turn one and it provides an artifact that is readily put in the graveyard so that you have something to weld (nice for getting value out of Wurmcoil targeted by a Swords to Plowshares, for example).

As for Faithless Looting and Gamble, I'm not a fan, solely in that they conflict with Chalice of the Void.

[nerv2004]

I think that Welder MUD might become a bit better as Post MUD begins to appear on more peoples' radar (which it may well do after the decent showings at recent SCG events).

As for the merits of Mox Diamond, Mox Opal, and Lotus Petal, I actually run one of each in my Welder list. Opal is the most powerful in the abstract, but it's unlikely to generate mana on turn one to any significant effect. Mox Diamond is nice and you often will end up with a spare land in hand because of reluctance to sac a City of Traitors in play, but one land hands aren't wholly uncommon with the 21-22 land Welder lists. Lotus Petal is nice for a number of more subtle reasons. It allows you to get metalcraft for an Opal on turn one and it provides an artifact that is readily put in the graveyard so that you have something to weld (nice for getting value out of Wurmcoil targeted by a Swords to Plowshares, for example).

As for Faithless Looting and Gamble, I'm not a fan, solely in that they conflict with Chalice of the Void.

Thank you for the feedback. I think ill probably start off running just petals and maybe look to acquire 1-2 opals.

On another note, has anyone thought of using sneak attack in welder builds? Its not as obscene as dropping an emerakul, but i can see the merits of dropping a wurmcoil, sundering titan or even a blightsteel. Thoughts?

[FlyingSkull13]

ran the 12 post build at a local event tonight, the consistency of the deck is fixed, it can cast everything, which is huge, chalice for 1 on turn one followed by trinisphere is still the biggest beating to give to a player

[darkghost]

I think Trading Post and Spine of Ish Sah has very good interaction with each other once you have the mana up, likely late game. Even if Spine gets countered, you have a way of recurring it. That's for monobrown MUD users.