[Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

[Sleight]

So after the success of the MUD list at the invitational, I have been thinking of ditching my greaves for copies of the Karnfather.

The big debate for me is since I play three Cavern of Souls (12post base). I really like seeing Cavern + Greaves protection, but Karn just seems awesome :cool:

What are the thoughts of losing the protection of Lightning Greaves for Karn Liberated?

[Just me]

It's protection AND speed. Haste shaves a full turn of many lines.
-Infi combo with Staff + Metalworker T2 with Greaves
-Cast Forgemaster, use it, get Colossus, attack FTW, all in the same turn thanks to greaves
-be able to attack with lifegain (Wumrcoil) directly is huge in damageraces
-It's a 2cc card, an early drop, which improves the later drops.

Karn is great, but very expensive in CC. So it's not a proper straight up swap I feel.

[darkghost]

So after the success of the MUD list at the invitational, I have been thinking of ditching my greaves for copies of the Karnfather.

The big debate for me is since I play three Cavern of Souls (12post base). I really like seeing Cavern + Greaves protection, but Karn just seems awesome :cool:

What are the thoughts of losing the protection of Lightning Greaves for Karn Liberated?

There was once that I cut down 1 Greaves for a Karn giving me a 2/1 split. I like both cards but running a Forgemaster list, I quickly cut another card to put the 3rd greaves back in. I'm a fan of robots making a faster kill with spell protection. Though, Karn is still awesome.

[CaptainTwiddle]

[Lightning Greaves is ]protection AND speed. Haste shaves a full turn of many lines.
-Infi combo with Staff + Metalworker T2 with Greaves
-Cast Forgemaster, use it, get Colossus, attack FTW, all in the same turn thanks to greaves
-be able to attack with lifegain (Wumrcoil) directly is huge in damageraces
-It's a 2cc card, an early drop, which improves the later drops.

Karn is great, but very expensive in CC. So it's not a proper straight up swap I feel.

Honestly, I was rather shocked to see MUD without Greaves. If it wasn't running Forgemaster, I could possibly understand, but even then, the boots are just so good for so many reasons. I think Karn is a powerhouse, but I'd be remiss to drop below x2 Greaves. I'd sooner cut down to 3 Trinisphere in the maindeck than go without Greaves.

[Sleight]

Thanks for the advice everyone. With karn price what it is, I'm more than happy to hear that the consensus is greaves over karn.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk

[th3 w1z4rd]

It's protection AND speed. Haste shaves a full turn of many lines.
-Infi combo with Staff + Metalworker T2 with Greaves
-Cast Forgemaster, use it, get Colossus, attack FTW, all in the same turn thanks to greaves
-be able to attack with lifegain (Wumrcoil) directly is huge in damageraces
-It's a 2cc card, an early drop, which improves the later drops.

Karn is great, but very expensive in CC. So it's not a proper straight up swap I feel.

With Greaves attached to Metalworker, you cannot target him with Staff of Domination. So you need another dude in play for this to work. Don't fall into this trap! :cool:

[Mockingbird]

A MUD-Post deck went 3-1 in the MTGO Dailys last week:

//Lands: 24
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Wasteland

//Creatures: 19
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
3 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine

//Artifacts: 17
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
2 Staff of Nin
4 Trinisphere

//Sideboard
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Steel Hellkite

The sideboard made me chuckle.

[bruizar]

Just throwing this out here. Toying around with the idea of an RG build. The reason for this is because I think Sylvan Library is incredible. It sets up Bonfire of the Damned, draws you extra cards, serves as a Sensei's Divining Top that doesn't conflict with Chalice of the Void for 1, it hides cards from Thoughtseize and Jace Fateseals. Depending on the final list, it could be used with Words of Wilding or Words of War, or Uba Mask and can set up cards like Summoning Trap or Ancient Stirrings. It can also be used with Abundance, but I think that card does too little by itself. Again, that depends on the final list. Green also allows for Tarmogoyf. The use of RG also allows for the inclusion of some strong sideboard options like Ancient Grudge, Red Elemental Blast, Sulfur Elemental and Choke, as well as main deck Punishing Fires which can help you get rid of utility creatures. On the upper bound of the mana curve, you can play Primeval Titan, which can chain into cards like Rishadan Port or Wastelands (or something better?). Finally, it's also possible to include Garruk Wildspeaker without having to choose from other bad green cards, although I doubt if I like Garruk in the first place.

Where would you take this?

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Sylvan Library
3 Punishing Fires
3 Bonfire of the Damned
1 Words of Wilding / Words of War / Uba Mask
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tarmogoyf

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the other deck list I'm playing with now. It's still very much in the brewing stage as you can see:

// Land [22]
1 Mishra's Factory
5 Island
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

//Creatures [18]
2 Arcum Dagsson
1 Karn, Silver Golem
4 Master of Etherium
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Metalworker

// Key Spells [18]
4 Prototype Portal
4 Tangle Wire
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Voltaic Key

// Bombs [2]
1 Possessed Portal / Spine of Ish-Sah
1 Mycosynth Lattice
39

Arcum Dagsson:
Once you pull out Mycosynth Lattice, you can force your opponent to sacrifice his creatures, in exchange for.. Well, nothing besides equipment really. If you have a Voltaic Key in play by that time, you can use Arcum Dagsson multiple times a turn. With Karn Silver Golem, you can animate any of your non-creature artifacts, and trade them for other cards, such as prototype portals, which can be used to circumvent counters once you imprint cards form your hand. Possessed Portal or Spine of Ish-Sah (or both, removing Lattice instead) can be used to lock up the board. You have plenty of Smokestack fodder for portal, and you don't really need draws because you can attack with Arcum after your opponent has no cards in hand and no permanents left.

Karn, Silver Golem:
With Mycosynth Lattice in play, you shoot all your opponent's land and win from there. Otherwise, you can use it to animate a swarm of artifacts. Just don't animate tokens, because the CC is 0.

Prototype Portal:
Copies everything. Great with Metamorph, Lodestone Golems, Artifact Land, Tangle Wire, Chalice of the Void, Grim Monolith's, Voltaic Key, and Master of Etherium's. Prevents your threats from being abrupt decayed or countered.

Master of Etherium:
The main beater. Grows faster with Lattice and Prototype Portals, especially when imprinted with Voltaic Keys.

Lodestone Golem:
Makes things expensive for your opponent, especially when you copy it many times.

Tangle Wire:
The best lock card. With 1 Prototype Portal, it ties up to 10 permanents of your opponent in exchange for tapping 2 permanents of yourself.

[nerv2004]

Heres my idea list for sneak attack

Enchantments:
3 sneak attack

Non-creature artifacts:
3 lotus petal
4 grim monolith
4 chalice of the void
1 staff of domination

Creatures:
4 goblin welder
4 wurmcoil engine
4 lodestone golem
4 metalworker
4 kuldotha forgemaster
1 blightsteel colossus
1 sundering titan
3 steel hellkite

Lands:
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 cavern of souls
4 wasteland
4 great furnace



Obviously this is super rough but looking at it I think the staff can be cut for something in the future. The idea is not to end the game with one activation but get value out of 1-2. We are still playing the traditional MUD game.
So sneak attack works like lightning greaves except it allows for even more explosive plays, for G2 is better against artifact hate and adds another must answer threat to our arsenal.

Goblin welder becomes super relevant if you go late game after a sneak attack or two, who needs gamble or faithless looting right.

Im really interested in ANY feedback and would really love some MTGO players to give it a play if possible. I'll be taking my prototype to my local next week but until then wont have a chance to play against real people.

[darkghost]

Heres my idea list for sneak attack

Enchantments:
3 sneak attack

Non-creature artifacts:
3 lotus petal
4 grim monolith
4 chalice of the void
1 staff of domination

Creatures:
4 goblin welder
4 wurmcoil engine
4 lodestone golem
4 metalworker
4 kuldotha forgemaster
1 blightsteel colossus
1 sundering titan
3 steel hellkite

Lands:
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 cavern of souls
4 wasteland
4 great furnace



Obviously this is super rough but looking at it I think the staff can be cut for something in the future. The idea is not to end the game with one activation but get value out of 1-2. We are still playing the traditional MUD game.
So sneak attack works like lightning greaves except it allows for even more explosive plays, for G2 is better against artifact hate and adds another must answer threat to our arsenal.

Goblin welder becomes super relevant if you go late game after a sneak attack or two, who needs gamble or faithless looting right.

Im really interested in ANY feedback and would really love some MTGO players to give it a play if possible. I'll be taking my prototype to my local next week but until then wont have a chance to play against real people.

Hi, upped the Titan count to three, took out Hellkites, Staff and a Forgemaster, then added 3 Tangle Wires. If Sneak Attack resolved and wasnt Revoked, it did great, though, I had wanted to cast Sneak and activate it the same turn. Getting double red mana was rare on early turns. Also, when my friends got used to my deck, they just played around it, waiting to counter the Sneak Attack and saved a removal for the Metalworker and/or Goblin Welder. If one of the cards stuck around, unloading your hand to win was easy. Though, I really would suggest to have more red mana sources.

@bruizar: Prototype Portal reminds me of Phyrexian Processor from Urza's Extended days. I will pick up 4 to try them and report here after my test.


On a side note, I am still working on a Stax build. What are people's thoughts on Thorn of Amethyst maindeck (with 4 Sphere of Resistance)? I am trying 2, 3, and 4 ofs. Thanks in advance.

[kingtk3]

I think that there are too many decks based on creatures for gaining advantage from thorn.
It's a fine sideboard card though

Sent from my mobile, forgive me for grammar errors.

[Howishotgun]

Recently put this deck together and unsure about how you would sideboard this deck. Not sure what cards you would take out are and which ones you would put in. Is there a generalized sideboard guide that anybody could help me with? Any help would be appreciated would love to get better with this deck.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 City of Traitors

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metal Worker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
4 Trinisphere
2 Karn Liberated
2 Staff of Domination
1 Staff of Nin

Side Board~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 All is Dust
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Batterskull
1 Platnium Angel
1 Duplicant

[kingtk3]

Recently put this deck together and unsure about how you would sideboard this deck. Not sure what cards you would take out are and which ones you would put in. Is there a generalized sideboard guide that anybody could help me with? Any help would be appreciated would love to get better with this deck.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 City of Traitors

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metal Worker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
4 Trinisphere
2 Karn Liberated
2 Staff of Domination
1 Staff of Nin

Side Board~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 All is Dust
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Batterskull
1 Platnium Angel
1 Duplicant

Before talking about how to side you should ask yourself "why I've put these cards in my side?". I'll try to guess:
revokers - they come in against combo (stops LED, belcher, petals, sneak attack, elves, food chain, candelabra...) and decks with many planeswalker or activated abilities that are key for their strategy (like Top for miracle)
Spines - you'll always board it against S&T decks and maybe against some rogue deck if you'll find some weaker main card
Bombs - your catchall answer to permanent and a mean to take time against swarm decks, come in against storm (for EtW), merfolk, delver...
all is dust - theorically has the same function as bombs but with an higher impact on the game. However it cost 7 and it would often be too much for the matchup where you'd want it because you'll tipically need faster answers
tormod's - you'll bring these in against reanimator and dredge and maybe against some deck that recurs the grave (loam or recurring nightmare)
batterskull - it's for the aggro matchup, thanks to lifelink, and for the contro matchup, since you can recur it after they dispose of the germ token
Platinum - maybe it's for aggro matchups without removal like merfolk? quite fringe I'd say
Duplicant - another solution for S&T, although only for creatures, and a removal that doubles as threat

My opinion:
- all is dust will not help you when you'll need it because it's too slow, better another bomb or powder keg
- only 2 tormod's are not enough as grave hate because this deck isn't able to respond to threats (especially if the come down fast), so you want to prevent them from enter the battlefield. I'd play 2 faerie macabre in addition because they cannot be countered, don't cost mana and are instant
- batterskull and platinum: I fail to see their utility
- you have too many cards for the S&T matchup
- you lack something to play against discard and green sun zenith: they both can be a pain. Maybe grafdigger's cage and top (i'm not sure about this, not so many shuffle effects in the deck) can help, although in this case you may side out chalices

I hope this helps.

[Howishotgun]

Before talking about how to side you should ask yourself "why I've put these cards in my side?". I'll try to guess:
revokers - they come in against combo (stops LED, belcher, petals, sneak attack, elves, food chain, candelabra...) and decks with many planeswalker or activated abilities that are key for their strategy (like Top for miracle)
Spines - you'll always board it against S&T decks and maybe against some rogue deck if you'll find some weaker main card
Bombs - your catchall answer to permanent and a mean to take time against swarm decks, come in against storm (for EtW), merfolk, delver...
all is dust - theorically has the same function as bombs but with an higher impact on the game. However it cost 7 and it would often be too much for the matchup where you'd want it because you'll tipically need faster answers
tormod's - you'll bring these in against reanimator and dredge and maybe against some deck that recurs the grave (loam or recurring nightmare)
batterskull - it's for the aggro matchup, thanks to lifelink, and for the contro matchup, since you can recur it after they dispose of the germ token
Platinum - maybe it's for aggro matchups without removal like merfolk? quite fringe I'd say
Duplicant - another solution for S&T, although only for creatures, and a removal that doubles as threat

My opinion:
- all is dust will not help you when you'll need it because it's too slow, better another bomb or powder keg
- only 2 tormod's are not enough as grave hate because this deck isn't able to respond to threats (especially if the come down fast), so you want to prevent them from enter the battlefield. I'd play 2 faerie macabre in addition because they cannot be countered, don't cost mana and are instant
- batterskull and platinum: I fail to see their utility
- you have too many cards for the S&T matchup
- you lack something to play against discard and green sun zenith: they both can be a pain. Maybe grafdigger's cage and top (i'm not sure about this, not so many shuffle effects in the deck) can help, although in this case you may side out chalices

I hope this helps.

This does help me a bit. But my problem is I am unsure what to take out from the main board. To my knowledge the usually targets would prob be the grim monoliths and wurmcoils. Some people were also saying I should be trying to fit lightning greaves and at least a singleton of crucible. Maybe I am trying to change too much especially being brand new on the deck. I for sure what to be able to stick on this deck as my go to for any sort of large scale event.

[Bonk]

I can see the Greg Spano's List. I just beginning trying it, So I'don't know it. I'm very interested by his sideboarding plan.

But it you want fast help, tonight I'll could send you my list (a bit different) with my sideboarding plan and explanation. this list works pretty well for me in south of france

[Howishotgun]

I can see the Greg Spano's List. I just beginning trying it, So I'don't know it. I'm very interested by his sideboarding plan.

But it you want fast help, tonight I'll could send you my list (a bit different) with my sideboarding plan and explanation. this list works pretty well for me in south of france

That would great I would love to see what you have done. I have been thinking about dropping 1 waste + vesvua to try out double cavern. Im trying to tune this list cause my local shop has lots of delver players. Plus im starting to get sick of all the counter magic >.<

[Bonk]

Hello everyone

Howishotgun and others, here's my list :

MD :
3 Phyrexian revoker
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kudoltha Forgemaster
4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere
4 Grim Monolith
4 Lightning Greaves
1 Bottle Cloister

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva

SB :
1 Torpor Orb
1 Spine of Ish Sah
2 All is Dust
1 Duplicant
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Tormod’s Crypt
2 Summoning Trap
1 Bottle cloister

comments about the list :

1. Greaves are one of the best cards of the deck. The lack of them in the Spano's list is my bigger interrogation : T1 greaves means that you can kill T2. good opponents know that.

2. phyrexian revoker is awesome. really useful, except for rare match-ups. meta is full of combo and control decks, so it shuts down walkers, led, petal, elves, sneak attack... against tempo decks, it's good against equipments and stoneforge, and grim.

3. I play the green trap in my side, so I don't play caverns. I've tried manabases with 4 of them, but decided to cut them

4. Ratchet isn't good for me. I thought to play it against delver, but its not synergic with my chalice plan on these decks. early delver is a mess for us, but trap the opponent into a titan, and delver won't be a problem anymore.

And my sideboarding table :

UR Delver
-2 Trinisphere, -3 Revoker
+2 Trap, +3 Thorn


ANT
-3 Wurm, -1 Titan
+4 Thorn


BUG Shardless
-1 Colossus, -2 Cotv
+ 2 All is dust, +1 Cloister


BUG Tempo
-3 Revoker,
+2 Trap, +1 Thorn

Dredge
-1 Titan, -2 Trinisphere, -2 Revoker
+3 Crypt, +2 Thorn of Amethyst


Elfes
-1 Titan, -2 Wurm
+1 Orb, +2 All is Dust


Jund
-2 Trinisphère, -1 Revoker
+2 All is Dust, +1 Duplicant


Miracle
-4 Wurm, -1 Greaves
+4 Thorn, +1 Cloister


Omni-Tell
-3 Revoker, -2 Wurm, - 1 Titan
+4 Thorn, + 1 Spine, + 1 Trap


Sneak-Show
-1 Titan, -3 Wurm, -2 Greaves
+4 Thorn, +1 Spine, +1 Duplicant


Esper-Blade
-1 Wurm, -1 Greaves
+1 Torpor orb, +1 Cloister


Spiral Tide
-3 Revoker, -1 Titan, -1 Hellkite, -1 Wurm
+4 Thorn, +2 Trap


Reanimator
-3 Revoker, -2 Greaves, -2 Wurm
+4 Thorn, +3 Crypt


Merfolks
-2 Revoker, -1 Cloister, -1 Titan
+2 Trap, +2 All is dust


Painter
-1 Titan, -1 Cloister
+1 Orb, +1 Spine


the awful match-up is elfball. Nearly unwinable. Jund is a mess too. other combos are easy, just like miracle.

[Souleater734]

1. Greaves are one of the best cards of the deck. The lack of them in the Spano's list is my bigger interrogation : T1 greaves means that you can kill T2. good opponents know that.

So I don't mean to sound like a dick or anything but I think your assessment of greaves role is spano's deck is wrong. Spano's list is first and foremost a prison deck. It tries to aggressively deny mana with the full complement of trinispheres, lodestone golems, wastelands and 3 sundering titans. Forgemaster for blightsteel is only really there as a means of winning quickly, which isn't entirely necessary since every creature can outclass most others in the format. The lock pieces and acceleration are too tight to allow for 1 or 2 copies of greaves let alone any. It doesn't serve a large enough role to warrant the inclusion at the expense of a more important card.

[darkghost]

@Bonk: thank you for sharing your list. You seem to know your SB well. Gives me ideas for changes in my SB. It was very informative.

[Howishotgun]

Thanks again Bonk for sharing, this is exactly what i was trying to look for. This helps give me a much better idea on what cards to take out from main board.

[Zorker]

@Bonk thanks for sharing the list, while it's similar to mine i still got some new idea to try.

[Bonk]

my new step will be to test 3 ensnaring bridge in my side. I'don't know what to cut for the moment, but perhaps it will help for elf matchup, and reanimator which is very very fast.

@Zorker : let me informed of your new tests. I"m interested

[Dirk Mantooth]

Has anyone tried Candelabra of Tawnos in the Cloudpost versions of MUD? I realize it's hella expensive, but it seems absolutely amazing. It even fixes its own problem with turn one Chalice, since you can first cast the Candelabra and use the mana floating to untap your sol land. A friend of mine possesses one at the moment and I'm going to shove it into the deck for a weekly tournament tonight. Whether it's good or bad, I hope I draw it a bunch to find out!

[Howishotgun]

Has anyone tried Candelabra of Tawnos in the Cloudpost versions of MUD? I realize it's hella expensive, but it seems absolutely amazing. It even fixes its own problem with turn one Chalice, since you can first cast the Candelabra and use the mana floating to untap your sol land. A friend of mine possesses one at the moment and I'm going to shove it into the deck for a weekly tournament tonight. Whether it's good or bad, I hope I draw it a bunch to find out!

I personally dont like that idea. You should be building the deck to play around chalice for 1. If you want to use the candles you might as well just turn it into 12 post/Turbo Eldrazi

[darkghost]

A MUD-post deck made it to 2nd place at an SCG Open on 4/13.
I am surprised as this is the highest I've seen a MUD player rank on SCG invitational.
Here is the List:

Creatures (19)

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
3 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine

Planeswalkers (2)

2 Karn Liberated

Lands (24)

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Wasteland

Spells (15)

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Staff Of Domination
1 Staff of Nin
4 Trinisphere

Sideboard

1 Batterskull
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Powder Keg
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Trading Post
1 Duplicant
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Platinum Emperion
2 All Is Dust

Things to note from this list:
- No Lightning Greaves and 3 Sundering Titans, more prison based
- No Cavern of Souls or Summoning Trap
- 3 Ensnaring Bridge SB
- 1/1 split between Powder Keg and Ratchet Bomb (with 2 A.i.D)
- Trading Post shows up again

[Bonk]

this is spano's list except for the sideboard

[darkghost]

Anybody else playing Spano's list? How is it doing for you?

[Bonk]

what does trading post is use for ?

[Esper3k]

04/13? This list wasn't at this past SCG Open...

[darkghost]

My bad, was an invitational qualifiers.

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?event_ID=29&start_date=2014-04-13&end_date=2014-04-13&state=CO&city=Northglenn&order_1=finish&limit=8&t_num=1&action=Show+Decks

[Fry]

what does trading post is use for ?

I've used Trading Post to save myself from a Grim Lavamancer, sac Sundering Titan without needing Forgemaster (I currently don't play a Welder build) get back Wurmcoils, sac Spine of Ish Sah without needing the Forgemaster, draw cards, chump blocker. It's versatile, perhaps not as much as some other cards, or as powerful in a vacuum as many (which, let's be honest, is most of what is MUD), but it does have some great uses.

[Souleater734]

Anybody else playing Spano's list? How is it doing for you?

I've been playing a list similar to Spano's since January https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGmy6SQ4Vus&index=11&list=PLA75902435784EA71. The player with this list placed 17th at GP DC and his 75 is extremely close to spano's (I believe they are in the same play group). It's been going pretty well, the deck has a pretty good match up against combo across the board. Contrary to popular belief the deck doesn't have the best match up against delver, it is very winnable you just have to play around daze and sometimes wasteland is an issue but with a little luck and knowledge of the match up it's fine. The cloudpost engine is great against any deck without wasteland and really pulls it's weight against something like miracles or stoneblade. Counterspells can be an issue if the just have everything and you're just drawing dead but that usually isn't the case. The deck is not really a forgemaster deck and usually wins with something like sundering titan under 3sphere or wurmcoil just being bigger than anything. The only complaint I've had so far is that any sort of 12post mirror, whether MUD post or 12post, is abysmal, but those aren't very common so it's not that big of a deal. You also sometimes have double vesuva draws but there are mulligans for a reason so a lot of the times it's not that bad.

[Howishotgun]

I've used Trading Post to save myself from a Grim Lavamancer, sac Sundering Titan without needing Forgemaster (I currently don't play a Welder build) get back Wurmcoils, sac Spine of Ish Sah without needing the Forgemaster, draw cards, chump blocker. It's versatile, perhaps not as much as some other cards, or as powerful in a vacuum as many (which, let's be honest, is most of what is MUD), but it does have some great uses.

Could explain a little bit more, wondering what match ups its worth bringing in

[Zorker]

Tournament report: 14 people with top8


Nic fit(white splash)-0 Mud-2

1) what can you say to 2nd turn Sundewring titan, 3rd turn sundering titan, 4th turn sundeting titan
2) i kept a decent and but qasali and recurring nightmare shenanigans
3) chalice at 1, trinisphere, lodestone golem i win


BUG-2 Mud-1

1) i win by locking him out
2) i was winning but i made a mistake, with forgemaster i should have taken blightsteel colossus and not sundering titan
3) liliana ultimate

Canadian-2 Mud-1
i was mana flooded all the time, except the one game i won

Mono red-1 Mud 2

Nuff said Challice,trinisphere, and wurmcoil sealed the deal


Top 8

Bug Planeswalkers-2 Mud

1) he wins by ultimating lili
2) he won by ensnaring bridge, not before i killed liliana by attackin her with metalworkers.

[Mockingbird]

So two MUD-Post variants placed in the same MTGO Daily this week.

in5ano (4-0)
//Lands:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Wasteland

//Creatures: 13
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Steel Hellkite
2 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine

//Artifacts: 21
1 Batterskull
2 Bottled Cloister
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Tangle Wire
2 Thran Dynamo
4 Trinisphere
2 Voltaic Key

//Planeswalkers: 2
2 Karn Liberated

//Sideboard: 15
2 All Is Dust
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Platinum Angel
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Tormod's Crypt


SuperSnuGnu (3-1)
//Lands: 24
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Wasteland

//Creatures: 19
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
3 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine

//Artifacts: 16
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
1 Lightning Greaves
2 Staff of Domination
1 Staff of Nin
4 Trinisphere

//Planeswalkers: 2
2 Karn Liberated

//Sideboard: 15
1 Batterskull
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spine of Ish Sah
3 Summoning Trap
1 Trading Post

Source:https://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/7008933

What interests me is the that the first MUD deck is the version that doesn't play Metalworker or Kuldotha Forgemaster. Which, while risky, I've gotten some decent results with that version before. Personally, I just like the explosive power of Metalworker a lot though, so I tend to stick to him.

[darkghost]

Interesting, 2 lists, 1 Greaves in total. Seems like Sleight was going in a good direction with cutting Greaves for the Karnfather.

[Sleight]

I have actually been using karn in place of my two staff of nin I had. I'm still not sure how I feel about him. Since there is no deck manipulation for him, I feel like he could be something better. Still like watching him hit the field and be a threat they weren't ready to see.

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[J-Funk]

Can anyone explain to me the purpose of the single Batterskull I've been seeing in a lot of sideboards? I can't really figure out what matchups it would come in against, especially as only a 1-of.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Well, if you play phyrexian metamorph, copying an opponents sfm will allow you to search for it.

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[darkghost]

I'm guessing it is used against decks which side in humility, it makes a difference in a mirror without batterskull, helpful against multiple Ichorids making use of that lifelink+vigilance quite well, forces TNN+Batterskull to block Wurmcoil+Batterskull and Wurmcoil survives, and in situations where Wurmcoil Engine isn't enough (Mirran Crusader or Thalia + Batterskull, and the likes)?

[whatwas]

Batterskull is just a recurring fatty with lifelink and vigilance, that is hard to answer. I think the match ups it's good are tempo, but could be good in mirror matches or against control decks. I don't know the logic of only running one others than the fact that if I were to play it safe, I'd fetch it over blightsteel. Wurmcoil is also good for this but swords and liliana have less of an impact on bskull and since we can return it to our hand almost anytime it's difficult to kill with the artifact hate they may have boarded in.

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[whatwas]

I ran 2 karn for a while and it rocks against some decks like maverick among others but greaves and karn can be dead draws if you have no robots or not enough mana to cast karn. But they are both good, greaves can bait a counter turn one most times which is awesome.

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[whatwas]

I have a question for everyone, crucible of world vs an extra sundering titan. I know wasteland isn't the greatest choice in mud, but in some matches I've found that you can race them with a golem while having the wastelock down. MUs that this is a bad idea, in my experience, are goblins and death and taxes. Thoughts?

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[Mr. Froggy]

I have a question for everyone, crucible of world vs an extra sundering titan. I know wasteland isn't the greatest choice in mud, but in some matches I've found that you can race them with a golem while having the wastelock down. MUs that this is a bad idea, in my experience, are goblins and death and taxes. Thoughts?

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I actually find Titan to be more then enough when I search it up. I think a Wastelock with Crucible is overkill.

Sundering Titan comes in and destroys 2-3 lands (maybe more depending on matchup) and beats face.

[Sleight]

I would agree that crucible is a bit much. I find a lot of times I'm using wastelands to get there with mana for some fatty. I would be afraid of the waste lock taking away from your ability to hard cast your hand.
Also I generally find that a lot of decks that a wastelock would be good against are already pretty weak to cotv.

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[whatwas]

Crystal vein might be a good replacement then. I used em before post land base was popular and liked it, also used to use buried ruin after leaving welder behind, nether have been seen in a while. I honestly like mishras factory too. Factory was good for matches where I waited to play around daze, my thought was might as well get in for some damage, if I were waiting a turn to play around soft counters. And you could tap, sac them for forgemaster, if you wanted to go all in, or had chalice down for stifle. Which would you cut wasteland for?

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[darkghost]

@whatwas: for me, my choice would be either Mishra's Factory or Cavern of Souls. The occasional Vesuva copying Mishra's Factory was either annoying or became relevant, if you hit topdecking mode.

[Sleight]

I would say cavern before factory. You would be doing the same thing as the wastelands, spending mana not casting brown spells. They might help late game when you have extra mana, but by then, if your using the 12post base you should be able to cast most top decks end game. I love having extra caverns to jam on wurm and just watch sad faces in some match ups.

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[Bonk]

hello

does anybody there has sideboarding tables for the spano's list ? it willl be very helpfuf for me to have a working base to test this version

[darkghost]

Here is his list: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13345&iddeck=98016

[Bonk]

yep I know. but not his sideboarding plan

[darkghost]

The only video of him playing I found is against Painter's Stone. It seems like he sided in 1 Trading Post, 2 Spine of Ish Sah, and 3 Phyrexian Revoker. He for sure sided out the Sundering Titans, but we can only take a guess at the rest.

[Alex Holland]

Thiz my new deck and it rocks:

4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Steel Hellkite
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Copper Gnomes

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
3 Trinisphere
3 Ratchet Bomb

1 Karn Liberated

Sideboard/
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Duplicant
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Platinum Emperion
4 Defense Grid

I decided to ditch staff of domination because most of the time it was just a dead card in my hand. I went to 1 titan too, altough i see when it could be good mostly i just get blightsteel and win. Dropped the greaves too; they are good and all but if they want to kill ur piece they just use a instant before equiping and if you dont draw it quick its just a dead draw.

I added 2 copper gnomes, they can do crazy stuff like a t2 blightsteel or titan and they freak poeple out just as much as metalworker when they show up. Plus they are 2 mana wich is excellent in this deck.
I added 3 blinkmoth. They are just as good as mishras factory in the sense that they can be easy sacced for a forgemaster activitation. Yes they are not as good in blocking as mishras factory BUT they do kill a 3/2 delver heroicly!

I only play 1 karn because you really dont want a start hand with 2 karns in it. I never use it anyway, but ill keep 1 for the long grinding games, wich i dont see often- and this maybe because of my 3 ratchet bomb and 3 hellkites. In the right circumstances they can be as devastating as a one sided wrath of god.
I also play 3 revoker MAIN. against stoneforge, planeswalkers, other utility cards. Jace and liliana can be GG if they drop them before u have anything going. ANy comments???

[Alex Holland]

I would say cavern before factory. You would be doing the same thing as the wastelands, spending mana not casting brown spells. They might help late game when you have extra mana, but by then, if your using the 12post base you should be able to cast most top decks end game. I love having extra caverns to jam on wurm and just watch sad faces in some match ups.

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But factories can be sacced to kuldotha and kill planeswalker baddies.

12post.. is just more randomness to a unstable archetype

[whatwas]

Thiz my new deck and it rocks:

4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Steel Hellkite
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Copper Gnomes

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
3 Trinisphere
3 Ratchet Bomb

1 Karn Liberated

Sideboard/
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Duplicant
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Platinum Emperion
4 Defense Grid

I decided to ditch staff of domination because most of the time it was just a dead card in my hand. I went to 1 titan too, altough i see when it could be good mostly i just get blightsteel and win. Dropped the greaves too; they are good and all but if they want to kill ur piece they just use a instant before equiping and if you dont draw it quick its just a dead draw.

I added 2 copper gnomes, they can do crazy stuff like a t2 blightsteel or titan and they freak poeple out just as much as metalworker when they show up. Plus they are 2 mana wich is excellent in this deck.
I added 3 blinkmoth. They are just as good as mishras factory in the sense that they can be easy sacced for a forgemaster activitation. Yes they are not as good in blocking as mishras factory BUT they do kill a 3/2 delver heroicly!

I only play 1 karn because you really dont want a start hand with 2 karns in it. I never use it anyway, but ill keep 1 for the long grinding games, wich i dont see often- and this maybe because of my 3 ratchet bomb and 3 hellkites. In the right circumstances they can be as devastating as a one sided wrath of god.
I also play 3 revoker MAIN. against stoneforge, planeswalkers, other utility cards. Jace and liliana can be GG if they drop them before u have anything going. ANy comments???

I like it, 12 post isn't bad but your land base bring more utility, the 3 hellkite 3 ratchet bomb is cool. Good for long matches where soft locks fade in viability.
In before 'your relying on metalworker too hard' comments ;-)

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[Alex Holland]

I like it, 12 post isn't bad but your land base bring more utility, the 3 hellkite 3 ratchet bomb is cool. Good for long matches where soft locks fade in viability.
In before 'your relying on metalworker too hard' comments ;-)

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well the bombs are there for if u dont find or use monolith/metalworker. If u slow down the other you have more time to find lands. And when you have your mana you have more change of winning a game. no, seriousely :laugh:

Plus copper gnomes is bad ass. When u drop it t1 or t2 people look real hard and long at it (reading it and shit) then freak out AND throw away their fows or removal at it. making room for ur real stuff!

[darkghost]

well the bombs are there for if u dont find or use monolith/metalworker. If u slow down the other you have more time to find lands. And when you have your mana you have more change of winning a game. no, seriousely :laugh:

Plus copper gnomes is bad ass. When u drop it t1 or t2 people look real hard and long at it (reading it and shit) then freak out AND throw away their fows or removal at it. making room for ur real stuff!


Lol, I see. Nice.

I just switched my MUD-Stax to 12post. Same idea, either you have cards to buy you time, or you just hope you can post-it-up.

I was also testing the 12post with 3 Cavern of souls. Its awesome. It makes sure your Sundering Titan owns them. I think it fits right in.

I will post a list soon with how the deck looked like at first and all the changes. Just need some free time.

[Alex Holland]

I just dont get sundering titan. It seems better than it is. If your sure your opponent doenst play exile effects your almost always better of just playing blightsteel colossus and just win the game. Sure against 3 color decks u can whipe their mana away BUT the mostly play 1-2 mana spells aniway.. i still run 1 titan, mostly for just hard casting but i never had a situation where i wanted him hard. I give him some time for now, dont know..

[whatwas]

Titan isn't the best, I agree. I switched him for a main deck platinum emperion, bc I could forgemaster him in to play it safe and to hard cast with ancient tomb without killing myself. If you have greaves on him it's pretty much game.

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[Mockingbird]

Daily Legacy MTGO's had a MUD-Post showing this week:

//Lands:24
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Wasteland

//Creatures: 13
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Steel Hellkite
2 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine

//Artifacts: 21
1 Batterskull
2 Bottled Cloister
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Tangle Wire
2 Thran Dynamo
4 Trinisphere
2 Voltaic Key

//Planeswalkers: 2
2 Karn Liberated

//Sideboard:15
2 All Is Dust
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Platinum Angel
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Tormod's Crypt

It's intriguing to see the version on the Posts more than the artifact mana. Also, Voltaic Key in a deck that focuses on Chalice @ 1... bold.

[darkghost]

Running Smokestacks version, I like Sundering Titan and Tangle Wire or/and Smokestack together. I don't run Forgemasters so more titans makes it more consistent for me.

Initial List:
MUD-Stax v1.0
Lands (24)
4 Mutavault
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

Locks(23)
4 Chalice of The Void
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Smokestack
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Phyrexian Revoker

Mana Artifacts (4)
4 Metalworker

Other Finishers (3)
3 Batterskull

Tricks (6)
3 Ratchet Bomb
1 Trading Post
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Bottled Cloister


The list ran fine, but goyf, and sometimes mom and Mirran Crusader were a problem. Then I got the Wurmcoil vs Batterskull debate and ended up taking the Wurmcoil.

Then came the Sundering Titans and the mana that needed to support them.


Current List:
MUD-Stax v2.0
Lands (23)
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors

Locks(22)
4 Chalice of The Void
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Smokestack
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Phyrexian Revoker

Mana Artifacts (8)
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith

Other Finishers (5)
3 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Sundering Titan

Tricks (2)
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Crucible of Worlds


Having 4 or 3 Vesuvas and City of Traitors was a little too much for me to handle. And after testing the Cavern of Souls, they feel like a good keep. 4 Smokestacks were a little too much after adding the Titans.

The 4 Sphere of Resistances feel underwhelming. Even with 3 or 4 of them out, all UG needs is a 1 to cast creature. FoWs still go through with just 1 mana more for 1 Sphere of Resistance. I am thinking of replacing them with 3 Trinispheres and an extra land or something else.

[Sleight]

@Alex Holland

I've been testing a similar list to what you recently posted. I'm loving this mana base with the smaller drops in maindeck revokers and copper gnomes. Games seem more consistent.

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[Adri]

Running Smokestacks version, I like Sundering Titan and Tangle Wire or/and Smokestack together. I don't run Forgemasters so more titans makes it more consistent for me.



The list ran fine, but goyf, and sometimes mom and Mirran Crusader were a problem. Then I got the Wurmcoil vs Batterskull debate and ended up taking the Wurmcoil.



What kind of problem you have some problem with mother of runes? the deck is colorless, so mom should not be an issue...

[darkghost]

What kind of problem you have some problem with mother of runes? the deck is colorless, so mom should not be an issue...

The problem was the batterskull's token was black. Most of the time, I had to re-equip it to something else, so I took the Wurmcoil over the Batterskull.

[Adri]

The problem was the batterskull's token was black. Most of the time, I had to re-equip it to something else, so I took the Wurmcoil over the Batterskull.

Makes sense. Never thought of that, so thanks

[darkghost]

I'm planning to attend a tourney tomorrow (60% sure, as it is far) and debating whether to run my stax list or Spano's list. I'd like to check the forums here what are the opinions on Smokestack (or my list in general).

[Sleight]

I'm planning to attend a tourney tomorrow (60% sure, as it is far) and debating whether to run my stax list or Spano's list. I'd like to check the forums here what are the opinions on Smokestack (or my list in general).

I feel like Spano's list seems to be fairly generic MUD. I would say play what you're comfortable playing. Since I personally have not played with a resitor/stax list, I can't say much about your list. Maybe Hellkite over Ratchet Bomb for a search target since you play post base(?), I feel like you can hit most of what you want dead with its ability. When I played 12post lists I used 4 City of Traitors for the turn 1 chalices over 4 wastelands.
Personally I have fallen out of love with the 12 post lists after I've tried the blinkmoth/factory manabase.

[Mockingbird]

MUD deck that I fished from this week's Daily's:

//Lands: 24
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Wasteland

//Creatures: 19
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine

//Artifacts: 17
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Domination
1 Staff of Nin
4 Trinisphere

//Sideboard
2 All Is Dust
1 Bottled Cloister
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spellskite
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Nin
1 Sundering Titan
2 Tormod's Crypt

Source (https://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital/MagicOnlineTourn.aspx?x=mtg/digital/magiconline/tourn/7069517)

Thing I notice about this list is that it looks more like a traditional MUD list, except it has the MUD-Post Mana base (seriously though, where's the Cavern of Souls?) Greaves and Platinum Emperion makes me think that one tries to focus more on Kuldotha Forgemaster and that Cloudpost lets players hardcast the finishers is more of an afterthought than the way the deck runs.

[Aesir]

Just a few more cards, and I'll be done with the Post-version in paper. I'm excited to start playing the deck. :)

[Souleater734]

MUD deck that I fished from this week's Daily's:

//Lands: 24
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Wasteland

//Creatures: 19
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
3 Wurmcoil Engine

//Artifacts: 17
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Domination
1 Staff of Nin
4 Trinisphere

//Sideboard
2 All Is Dust
1 Bottled Cloister
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spellskite
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Nin
1 Sundering Titan
2 Tormod's Crypt

Thing I notice about this list is that it looks more like a traditional MUD list, except it has the MUD-Post Mana base (seriously though, where's the Cavern of Souls?) Greaves and Platinum Emperion makes me think that one tries to focus more on Kuldotha Forgemaster and that Cloudpost lets players hardcast the finishers is more of an afterthought than the way the deck runs.

I like this deck for the most part. I'm not a big fan of greaves though and with the post mana base I like Karn a lot. I do like shaving the number of sundering titans for the hellkite and Emperion. I not sure what to think of the second staff of nin in the board but the deck looks pretty good.

[darkghost]

I feel like Spano's list seems to be fairly generic MUD. I would say play what you're comfortable playing. Since I personally have not played with a resitor/stax list, I can't say much about your list. Maybe Hellkite over Ratchet Bomb for a search target since you play post base(?), I feel like you can hit most of what you want dead with its ability. When I played 12post lists I used 4 City of Traitors for the turn 1 chalices over 4 wastelands.
Personally I have fallen out of love with the 12 post lists after I've tried the blinkmoth/factory manabase.

Took out the Ratchet Bomb for the Steel Hellkite.
Took out the Crucible of Worlds and added the 3rd City of Traitors.

Is Wasteland really not all that important? I'm trying to see if I should change the Wastelands to Mishra's Factory for more beat down.

BTW, I can't search, I've pretty much ran Smokestack over Kuldotha Forgemaster. I do wonder why I don't ever see any Stax list in more recent rankings.

[whatwas]

Took out the Ratchet Bomb for the Steel Hellkite.
Took out the Crucible of Worlds and added the 3rd City of Traitors.

Is Wasteland really not all that important? I'm trying to see if I should change the Wastelands to Mishra's Factory for more beat down.

BTW, I can't search, I've pretty much ran Smokestack over Kuldotha Forgemaster. I do wonder why I don't ever see any Stax list in more recent rankings.

Crucible of world's makes wasteland and city of traitors better, and is really good with stax. You could take out wasteland for factories, it's all about your style. But the reason I say wastelands aren't the greatest is that a lot of times I find myself not wanting to sacrifice them bc I'm low on mana.
The scenarios like:
T1 tomb-T2 city, robot-T3 wasteland-sac city, 5cmc spell-T4 miss land drop pass/ use wasteland-T5 topdeck mode and everything has 4-6cmc.

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[Secretly.A.Bee]

Add to that an opponent wastelanding you once and you are in a real pickle.

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[whatwas]

Add to that an opponent wastelanding you once and you are in a real pickle.

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Exactly! I love it! But say that waste was a factory or even an artifact land and the 5cmc was forgemaster ;).

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[Alex Holland]

Exactly! I love it! But say that waste was a factory or even an artifact land and the 5cmc was forgemaster ;).

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Still need waste against dark depth or karakas, plus its sometimes helpful against greedy decks and its good with trinisphere putting them below 3 lands.

Im very careful with wastelands because of the mana issues so it totally depends on my hand or the board state. It does give you some oops 3 wastelands in my hand i win scenarios sometimes.

My land base (23):

8 sol lands
4 cavern of souls
4 mishras factory
4 wasteland
3 blinkmoth nexus (delver fuck u)

Very nice to sac manlands late game.

And i do play 4 metalworker and 4 monolith ofcourse, even 3 copper gnomes to cheat if i dont get my curve.

Other notable things: 3 revoker main 3 ratchet main 3 hellkite main. No karn no staff.

4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 platinum emperion
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Steel Hellkite
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Copper Gnomes

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
3 Trinisphere
3 Ratchet Bomb

[whatwas]

Still need waste against dark depth or karakas, plus its sometimes helpful against greedy decks and its good with trinisphere putting them below 3 lands.

Im very careful with wastelands because of the mana issues so it totally depends on my hand or the board state. It does give you some oops 3 wastelands in my hand i win scenarios sometimes.

My land base (23):

8 sol lands
4 cavern of souls
4 mishras factory
4 wasteland
3 blinkmoth nexus (delver fuck u)

Very nice to sac manlands late game.

And i do play 4 metalworker and 4 monolith ofcourse, even 3 copper gnomes to cheat if i dont get my curve.

Other notable things: 3 revoker main 3 ratchet main 3 hellkite main. No karn no staff.

4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Metalworker
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 platinum emperion
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Steel Hellkite
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Copper Gnomes

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
3 Trinisphere
3 Ratchet Bomb

So why no lodestone golem?

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[Sleight]

So why no lodestone golem?

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I use a similar build to this, and I feel chalice and trinisphere are better soft locks. My list:

4 Metalworker
1 Karn Liberated
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Lightning Greaves
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Batterskull
2 Copper Gnomes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Pithing Needle
3 Steel Hellkite
1 Staff of Domination

SB: 2 Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 1 Duplicant
SB: 3 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 All Is Dust
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Trading Post
SB: 1 Platinum Emperion
SB: 1 Trinisphere


The fact that Lodestone Golem is a creature always seems to be its downfall in most matchups. Since "best case" you are playing it turn 2, they should have an extra mana to spend to undo your last turn with a 2 mana bolt/STP and swing into an open field. Generally with these smaller dudes you threaten a board where STP dosent look to great when you can respond with saccing a gnome and putting in something better for the 4 mana. Also the manabase can also threaten equivalent swings back without having to add another creature to the board, which makes combat match confusing for your opponent.

[darkghost]

So I did ended up going to the tourney today. Here are the details:

Decklist:
Current List:
MUD-Stax v2.01

Lands (24)
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors

Locks(22)
4 Chalice of The Void
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Smokestack
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Phyrexian Revoker

Mana Artifacts (8)
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith

Other Finishers (6)
3 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite

Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Masticore
1 Batterskull
1 Powder Keg
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 All is Dust
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Duplicant
2 Spine of Ish Sah


I can't remember all the details so I'll just post whatever I remember here. This was a Swiss of 4 rounds, then cut to top 8. There were 14 or so people who showed up for this event.


Round 1:

Game 1:
I lose the die roll and keep my 3 landed hand.
T1: he plays Cursecatcher, which gave me a sign that he was playing Merfolks. I play Tomb then Sphere of Resistance, which gets dazed.
T2: He plays Mutavault, hits for 1 and passes. I Wasteland, then pass.
T3: we both draw, play land, go, I think mine was a Cloudpost.
T4: He plays the 2/1 for 2 Merfolk which revealed TNN. I play Phyrexian Revoker, not knowing what to name and traded with the 2/1 Merfolk after.
a Lodestone gets FoW'ed after.
Mid-game: I resolve a Metalworker, next turn I drop 2 Lodestones, and a Smokestack. He drops 2 Aether Vials the next two turns and we both start sacrificing permanents, but he Vialed the TNN in. I was down to 6, but he's stuck to defend at 9.
Smokestack reached 3 counters and emptied both our fields except for my Lodestone.
(1-0)

-4 Sphere of Resistance, +1 Ratchet Bomb, +1 Powder Keg, +2 All is Dust

Game 2:
T1: He plays Pithing Needle he sided naming Metalworker. I corrected him telling him that Pithing Needle does not stop mana abilities. He then went on saying he made such a bad choice here.
My T1 was a Cloudpost, pass.
T2: He plays another Pithing Needle not knowing what to name anymore. I play a Glimmerpost, then a Phyrexian Revoker for Aether Vial, He miss-Dazed this and I just paid the 1.
T3: He drops a Standstill and passes. I drop Chalice for 2, Standstill pops, but Chalice made it through.
In the next turns, I was able to resolve a Smokestack, and he did 2 more Pithing Needles. I was winning the permanents race in the next turns and resolve a Lodestone, he concedes.
(2-0) 1-0


Round 2:

Game 1: I lose the die roll here.
T1: he goes Gixtan Probe, double Lotus Petal, pass. I play a land, then pass.
T2: he draws and pass. I play a land and cast Sphere of Resistance.
We both do nothing the next turns, but he didn't draw or play any lands, so he conceded not wanting to discard and reveal his deck.
(3-0)

I don't know what he was playing, and I assumed Sneak and Show. -1 Sundering Titan, -1 Tangle Wire, -1 Steel Hellkite, +1 Phyrexian Revoker, +2 Spine of Ish Sah

Game 2:
T1: he goes Gixtan Probe then cycle Street Wraith, and plays a Petal. I still didn't know what he was playing and assumed Dredge. My turn 1 was Chalice for 1 from and Ancient Tomb.
T2: he sacs Petal, uses Elvish Spirit Guide, Manamorphoses for BB, plays a Chrome Mox and passes. I still didn't know what he was playing.
I play a Cavern of Souls and Metalworker.
T3: He plays another Chrome Mox and passes. I unload a Chalice for 2 (which later on, he pointed out that I should have played this at 0, as he reveals that he was playing Oops! All Spells), Sphere of Resistance ,Tangle Wire.
He then concedes.
(4-0) 2-0


Round 3:

Game 1:
I won the die roll and played.
T1: Tomb, Monolith, Metalworker. He goes Misty Rainforest, pop for Bayou, and play Deathrite Shaman.
T2: I drop Sphere of Resistance and Smokestack as I didn't draw any threats. He goes Llanowar Elves, Gaea's Cradle, then Nettle Sentinel.
T3: Stax tick to 1, draw, land, pass. He sacs DRS, plays a land then Green Sun's Zenith for a Viridian Shaman taking out my Stax.
T4: nothing really came down on my side. He drew a Wirewood Symbiote and I concede.
(4-1)

-4 Sphere of Resistance, - 3 Smokestack, - 1 Tangle Wire, +1 Ratchet Bomb, +1 Powder Keg, +2 All is Dust, +1 Masticore, +1 Phyrexian Revoker, +2 Ensnaring Bridge

Game 2:
T1: I Chalice for 1 off a Tomb, He plays a land and passes.
T2: I played a Grim Monolith, land, and Lodestone. He scoops.
He revealed an Abrupt Decay, and no other lands.
(5-1)

Game 3:
T1: I mulled down to 6 getting: Cloudpost, Vesuva, Metalworker, Sundering Titan, Wurmcoil Engine, and Cavern of Souls. I played a Cloudpost and passed. He played a Misty Rainforest, pops for a Bayou and plays a Llanowar Elves.
T2: Vesuva copies Cloudpost, and play the Phyrexian Revoker I just drew naming Llanowar Elves. His T2 was a GSZ for a dryad Arbor.
T3: I play Cavern and Metalworker. He plays a land and passes. (He revealed later that he had a Natural Order and didn't get to play it this turn.)
T4: I reveal Wurmcoil, Sundering Titan, and a Lodestone I just drew, tap my lands and cast Sundering Titan, taking out his Bayou and his Dryad Arbor. (This one hurt him a lot more than I knew.) His T4 was play a land, GSZ for another Dryad Arbor.
T5: I draw a Grim Monolith, play Wurmcoil and Lodestone, swing for 7. He plays a land and another elf.
T6: I draw All is Dust, pay the mana for it and he concedes. He needed that Llanowar Elves for the Natural Order.
(6-1) 3-0


Round 4:
I'm guaranteed Top 8 and my opponent is too, so we drew and got lunch. 3-0-1


Top 8:

Game 1:
I win the die roll
T1: and play Tomb to Sphere of Resistance. He draws and plays Cloudpost. At this moment, I realized that my T1 was a bad play, should have played my Cloudpost over the Tomb.
T2: I Wasteland his Cloudpost. He plays Glimmerpost and passes.
T3: I play my Cloudpost feeling better that I'm the one who has the "earlier" Cloudpost now. He plays Vesuva copying my Cloudpost.
T4: I play Lodestone, and he plays Lodestone
T5: I play Steel Hellkite. His T5 was better as he plays Metalworker, Greaves, equip, reveal 3 artifacts and Staff of Domination and win.
(6-2)

I was very excited to play the mirror. I know now that I can abuse the higher level casting cost if I can keep a Cloudpost or a copy for the next games.
-4 Sphere of Resistance, -4 Chalice of the Void, +3 Ensnaring Bridge, +1 Batterskull, +1 Duplicant, +2 Spine of Ish Sah, +1 Phyrexian Revoker

Game 2:
T1: I Cloudpost, he Cloudpost
T2: I play a Glimmerpost and Metalworker. In his turn, he played a Vesuva and a Kuldotha Forgemaster.
T3: I empty my hand, which consisted of a Steel Hellkite, Tangle Wire, and 2 Phyrexian Revokers naming Kuldotha Forgemaster and Metalworker. He concedes
(7-2)

Game 3:
T1: He plays a Cloudpost, I play a Cloudpost
T2: He wastes my post and pass. I waste his post too and pass... (what can you say... mirror match?)
In the succeeding turns, we struggle for Cloudpost control, getting some spells through and then Wasting each other's Cloudpost. I get a Metalworker through a Grim Monolith from the Cloudpost before another Wasteland, and he gets a Staff of Domination and a Metalworker in. He would win next turn, but in my turn, I Duplicant it using Metalworker mana.
He resorted into tapping my Metalworker with his Staff during my upkeep in the succeeding turns with his Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, and he also had a Thespian's Stage. My lands included a Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, and an Ancient Tomb. I play my Smokestack using my lands. He drew blank and passed.
(I also played an Ensnaring Bridge sometime mid-game). I tick my Stax up, drew a Spine of Ish Sah and played Tangle Wire. This became trouble for him as he couldn't tap my Metalworker anymore. He played a Glimmerpost and passed. During my turn I sac something (I sac the Tangle Wire at some point but forgot exactly when), tick up the Stax to 2, played Spine targeting his Cloudpost. He sacs Staff and Glimmerpost and I asked him if he has another Staff in his deck and he said yes. He drew a Metalworker but couldn't play it. I sac the Spine and something else to Stax and cast a Wurmcoil that I drew from the past turns. His turn, he had to sac his 2 lands, then he plays a Cloudpost.
My turn, I sac'ed Ensnaring Bridge and Stax, played the Spine against his Cloudpost. Somewhere I also played a Phyrexian Revoker naming Metalworker after he sac'ed his Staff of Domination. Wurmcoil, Phyrexian Revoker and Metalworker danced sideways for the next couple turns, seeing an empty board, for the win.
(8-2) 4-0-1

I asked him why he didn't board in his Ensnaring Bridges. He said he would have to combo off just to get out of the lock. I think the game 2 Phyrexian Revokers encouraged him to have the Bridges out.

Top 4:
Players just wanted to split the top 4 and seemed like a good idea to me. Their decks were: Sneak and Show, Reanimator, and Enchantress (which is the reason why they wanted to draw, as games takes forever with Enchantress). I didn't really wanna face Reanimator or Sneak and Show, but was interested in an Enchantress match. I went for the draw anyways because the price was pretty reasonable and didn't wanna pass it up.


I picked up a B/R dual, and a R/W dual (both from revised), as I felt like I didn't really needed anything else.


I was definitely surprised how good Smokestacks were for some of the match ups. Tangle Wires did well too and won me games.

I was not expecting much from my first legacy tournament, thinking that I just wanted to experience it and see how it goes. It ended up a success and getting me the top rank for this tourney.

[Alex Holland]

So why no lodestone golem?

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lodestone golem has 3 toughness. so it dies from a lot.
i do like him. just not here. i rather do something constructive for my win conditions.
plus its a very asseymetrical card if you have a trinisphere in play. then its mostly a 5/3 for 4. meh!

i rather wanted more control. thats why i play many hellkites. only 1 swing to change to the board. Same for ratchet bomb and revokers. take control.

staff of nin/staff of domination/karn liberated are just good sometimes. mostly they are in your hand and you wish they were something else. karn to the sideboard, the rest out the door. Actually i think karn went out for the 3rd copper gnomes. Such a sweet card in the first turns. Brings some real pressure and clears the way for a metalworker. (they throw fow or bolt at it in pure panic)

Its working for me, feels very pure and compact.

[kingtk3]

lodestone golem has 3 toughness. so it dies from a lot.
i do like him. just not here. i rather do something constructive for my win conditions.
plus its a very asseymetrical card if you have a trinisphere in play. then its mostly a 5/3 for 4. meh!

i rather wanted more control. thats why i play many hellkites. only 1 swing to change to the board. Same for ratchet bomb and revokers. take control.

staff of nin/staff of domination/karn liberated are just good sometimes. mostly they are in your hand and you wish they were something else. karn to the sideboard, the rest out the door. Actually i think karn went out for the 3rd copper gnomes. Such a sweet card in the first turns. Brings some real pressure and clears the way for a metalworker. (they throw fow or bolt at it in pure panic)

Its working for me, feels very pure and compact.

I agree with Alex about lodestone: as written in the past, it's a card that doesn't really advance the game plan of kuldotha builds and can be a little too slow for combo matchup. It's the backbone of the stompy builds though, so noone is saying it's a bad card.

@Alex: how do you find th copper gnomes in respect of thran dynamo? In my eyes they have a similar role (ramp into something big), but with copper gnomes you sacrifice some stability and open up to removal in order to gain an unconditional (but one-shot) ramp and uncounterability. Or maybe they are here mainly as a counter/removal bait?

[Bash]

T5: I play Steel Hellkite. His T5 was better as he plays Metalworker, Greaves, equip, reveal 3 artifacts and Staff of Domination and win.


I'm quite certain that combo doesn't work with metalworker equipped because of Shroud

EDIT : OK he still can win thanks to his lodestone golem :cool:

[Alex Holland]

I agree with Alex about lodestone: as written in the past, it's a card that doesn't really advance the game plan of kuldotha builds and can be a little too slow for combo matchup. It's the backbone of the stompy builds though, so noone is saying it's a bad card.

@Alex: how do you find th copper gnomes in respect of thran dynamo? In my eyes they have a similar role (ramp into something big), but with copper gnomes you sacrifice some stability and open up to removal in order to gain an unconditional (but one-shot) ramp and uncounterability. Or maybe they are here mainly as a counter/removal bait?


I used to play 3 dynamos some time ago. crazy stupid in retrospective. its a very nice ramp for high mana cards like karn liberated, but still its 4 mana. And sometimes its just kind of stuck or dead.
My new build has more cheap cards; 7 manlands, 3 revoker, 3 gnomes, 3 ratchet bomb. So it plays a little smoother without the extra mana of dynamo. Plus the 6 reset effect (ratchet bomb and hellkite) help buy more time so IF you are slower it doesnt matter because they will be slowed down too.

The gnomes are manly to draw out removal and counters. This works every time (tested this up to 25 games so far). And ocassionaly youll get something weird like T1, tomb, gnomes/ t2 city of traitors > do nothing > end step play blightsteel or something. Its also good against heavy counter decks to drop a uncounterable beater, or to still get a threat when you are facing a lot of land destruction. Sure its a one shot sort of silver (copper) bullet (lol), but that doesnt matter for 2 mana and a card wich is still a blocker if nothing else.

[Alex Holland]

I'm quite certain that combo doesn't work with metalworker equipped because of Shroud

EDIT : OK he still can win thanks to his lodestone golem :cool:


So he still had that many artifacts in his hand turn 5? Thats just weird luck. hellkite is almost always better to change the board in your favor.

[darkghost]

So he still had that many artifacts in his hand turn 5? Thats just weird luck. hellkite is almost always better to change the board in your favor.

I was hoping he hadn't, but even with just two other artifacts in his hand, it would allow him to tap my Hellkite with the Staff and possibly win next turn. Unless I drew one of my 3 Phyrexian Revokers maindeck.

[darkghost]

@Alex Holland: have you tested other manlands? (Inkmoth+Blinkmoth, Mutavault)

[Alex Holland]

@Alex Holland: have you tested other manlands? (Inkmoth+Blinkmoth, Mutavault)

I once tried mutavault with scarecrone.. U could sac them for a draw then..

[(nameless one)]

I once tried mutavault with scarecrone.. U could sac them for a draw then..

If you run Crucible, you can recur the Mutavaults too.

[saturnflowers]

I've been running mud since the starcity Seattle. I built the deck because rug is so powerful. Muds prison style with a play set of lodestone golem is the way to go. When I open up with a turn one lodestone golem and a turn two metal worker I'm in business. You don't have a bad match up really to any deck after board( good boards should run surgical extractions 3 or 4, 2 or 3 all is dust, 3or 4 spine of ish sha), I feel that some times I draw bad like too much land or not enough land. I run 4 wurmcoils as well because he's so powerful. 1 top cuz digging in mud is good!


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[Aesir]

Thoughts on Sensei's Top in the deck? I've been testing a couple in the post version, and I like it so far. Card filtering/advantage is never a bad thing.

[Souleater734]

Thoughts on Sensei's Top in the deck? I've been testing a couple in the post version, and I like it so far. Card filtering/advantage is never a bad thing.

The problem with top is that it gets countered by chalice on 1. If you're running the welder variant it's a fine card, though not as powerful in this deck compared to something like miracles or Nic fit, basically just decks with a lot of shuffle effects. When I tried welder top was pretty good and you're right that library manipulation is never bad it's just hard to fit into a chalice deck.

[whatwas]

The problem with top is that it gets countered by chalice on 1. If you're running the welder variant it's a fine card, though not as powerful in this deck compared to something like miracles or Nic fit, basically just decks with a lot of shuffle effects. When I tried welder top was pretty good and you're right that library manipulation is never bad it's just hard to fit into a chalice deck.

It is good with faithless looting, but the amount of room they take up was too big, I ran 4welder 2top 2looting, and the land base is also affected, 4furnace 3cavern 2mountain, plus if you try to run moxen it's a total of 17-19 that really make it just as inconsistent as not running the package.

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[aluisiocsantos]

I haven't played MuD in a while but when I did it was the Welder version with Chalice on the sideboard, so the focus was to combo more quickly game one and be more reactive game two, so all or most cmc1 cards would jump to sideboard.. So the general idea was running goblin welder + faithless looting.. Sensei top + voltaic key. The voltaic top combo did not always happeb but man, what a sight to see!


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[darkghost]

The red splash ran differently and had different solutions. Goblin Welder, Magus of the Moon, and Bonfire of the Damned were great cards. Red does give you Great Furnace, but I feel like the manabase is less useful. Running Rishadan Ports with Mishra's Factory, or the cloudpost base was preferable for me.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I don't agree with your side boarding opinions.

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[snurly]

I haven't played MuD in a while but when I did it was the Welder version with Chalice on the sideboard, so the focus was to combo more quickly game one and be more reactive game two, so all or most cmc1 cards would jump to sideboard.. So the general idea was running goblin welder + faithless looting.. Sensei top + voltaic key. The voltaic top combo did not always happeb but man, what a sight to see!


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What is the Sensei top + voltaic key combo?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Tap top, with activation on stack voltaic key activation. Tap top again. Draw card and put top on top of library and resolve first top activation by redrawing top.

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[Fry]

I have had more fun doing the tap top, resp welder it away for a wurmcoil...

Haven't done that in a long time, haven't played a Welder version in well over a year and a half.

[saturnflowers]

I run my board like that cuz I want to see these cards in my opening hand. Welder mud is fun :) I play to win tho and welder wasn't there for me or he died to quick. I guess late game he would be sick but I'm not going to waste turns setting up my victory. Welders an old form of legacy where one would entomb for stuff.


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[Souleater734]

Ya the appeal of MUD for me was always chalice and trinisphere and welder doesnt facilitate that.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

It's like playing Serenity in Enchantress.

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[Aesir]

Post MUD

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Wasteland

4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Metalworker
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Angel
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Trinisphere
2 Batterskull
1 Staff of Domination
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Sensei's Divining Top

SB:
3 All is Dust
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Spellskite
2 Witchbane Orb
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Grafdigger's Cage

Thoughts on the list? I'm a new MUD player, so I apologize if it's not up to par. To be honest, I haven't been impressed with Wasteland. It seems like it just time walks us on occasion, where I'd rather play threats that can sooner end the game. I know you kind of have to run them, but has anyone had any success without running them, and more lands/mana? I can definitely see the situations where wastes are amazing, but it hasn't really come to that for me.

[aluisiocsantos]

Well, maybe you can try running Crystal Vein.. Or cavern of souls for Golems or Constructs. I dont think wasteland is a must have tool, even though, its more a thing of prefference. Its just that sometimes a well placed wasteland the following turn you just Triniphere'd will steal you games.

Altenatively you can try some other utility lands such as Hall of the Bandit Lord or Buried Ruin! hall is sick with metalworker and kuldorha!

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[Souleater734]

So you have some "techy" main deck cards for the forgemaster package that i personally dont use but they are fine. Wasteland is probably under-performing for you because youre only running 2 trinisphere. That in it self is fine and cutting down on sundering titans is also a fine move because they really shine with a 3sphere in play. The deck seems fine though I dont really care for the top in a chalice deck. If youre afraid of dredge then cage is fine in the sideboard since chalice is fairly weak there but chalice is still great against reanimator so I'm still iffy on that one. All-in-all the deck looks fine though I prefer bottled cloister over witchbane orb.

[Souleater734]

Cavern is probably the best land to substitute for wasteland, I ran cavern for a while because of budget reasons and it was an adequate replacement that helped considerably against delver strategies. Darksteel Citadel was also fine and I tried that for a bit, it allowed for a t1 land on the draw when playing around cards like daze without fear of wasteland and can always be revealed to metalworker.

[Aesir]

Thanks for the responses, guys.

@Souleater: I was thinking of trying out Citadel for the stated reasons, but Cavern doesn't seem like a bad option at all. As mentioned, it is good against Delver, and my particular meta is filled with it. Top hasn't been bad at all. I've gone Ancient Tomb>Top/Chalice plenty of times, and it's helped me filter through unwanted cards while locking the opponent off 1 drops. It doesn't interfere too much, but I'd never run more than 1.

@aluisiocsantos: Hall doesn't really do it for me. I'd rather not run any tapped lands other than Cloudpost, and the life loss seems kind of bad, considering how much we take off of Ancient Tomb, and occasionally Tomb+Vesuva (It's happened a few times).

[Souleater734]

Let's be honest most meta's are filled with delver at this point, sadly not UR delver which is the closest thing to a bye besides burn.

[Souleater734]

anyway cavern on construct allows for metalworker and forgemaster to be uncounterable and golem hits lodestone sundering titan and even blightsteel. The only creature those dont encompass is wurmcoil.

[Alex Holland]

Let's be honest most meta's are filled with delver at this point, sadly not UR delver which is the closest thing to a bye besides burn.

Blinkmoth nexus eats delver, flipped and unflipped.

4 blinkmoth nexus
4 mishra factory
4 cavern of souls
8 sol land
4 wasteland

U need wasteland against dark depth/stage combo to gain time. Mishra is great against walkers. Plus factories and nexus can be sacced to kuldotha.

Titan is useless garbage in a time were decks run on 1-3 lands.

Play some copper gnomes against blue meta, uncounterable creatures in their end step.

[Aes Sedai]

I was told this would classify as a MUD deck. It's more based on Eldrazi than artifacts though. I am thinking of removing some of the Sundering Titans. Maybe put in a Staff of Domination...

Lands (25)
4 Vesuva
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Deserted Temple
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Eldrazi Temple

Spells (22)
4 Expedition Map
4 Mind Stone
3 Everflowing Chalice
4 Quicksilver Amulet
3 All is Dust
3 Oblivion Stone
1 Karn Liberated

Creatures (13)
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Steel Hellkite
2 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Sideboard (15)
2 Pithing Needle
2 Chalice of the Void
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Sundering Titan

[snurly]

Staff of Domination without Metalworker seems underpowered maybe?

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[Aes Sedai]

Staff of Domination without Metalworker seems underpowered maybe?

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Yeah, probably. Any other suggestions on what I could replace Sundering Titans with though?

[Alex Holland]

Yeah, probably. Any other suggestions on what I could replace Sundering Titans with though?

Ratchet bomb. Slows them gives you more time to get to high mana levels.

[Alex Holland]

What how is this mud exactely? Because of colorless?

[Souleater734]

This is colorless 12 post not mud.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So...you want to have him start a whole new thread because it doesn't have metalworker? Maybe it's worker-less mud, not colorless 12-post, eh?

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[Souleater734]

Blinkmoth nexus eats delver, flipped and unflipped.

4 blinkmoth nexus
4 mishra factory
4 cavern of souls
8 sol land
4 wasteland

U need wasteland against dark depth/stage combo to gain time. Mishra is great against walkers. Plus factories and nexus can be sacced to kuldotha.

Titan is useless garbage in a time were decks run on 1-3 lands.

Play some copper gnomes against blue meta, uncounterable creatures in their end step.

Well his deck was using 12 post so I'm assuming he wants to use to 12 post engine and not cut it for more utility or man lands. Preparing for dark depths is not necessary unless there are people who play it at your locals. My local meta never touches loam decks, even to troll locals, so unless it is part of your meta it's irrelevant to prepare for. If you're going to a large regional tournament or something, then having a gameplan is fine and I would prefer having the wastelands as on out to that combo in a open field, but dark depths and loam decks are such a small portion of the meta at large that preparing for it at a local meta that doesn't use it is not necessary. Sundering Titan is a fine card but if you're cutting the number of trinisphere it becomes a lot weaker. I've never had an issue with counterspells on creatures but it is nice to not have to worry about the metalworker getting countered, this isn't to anyone in particular but if you're going to use cavern make sure to explicitly announce you're tapping it for colored mana, I've had long, unnecessary conversations with judges because I failed to do this.

[Souleater734]

So...you want to have him start a whole new thread because it doesn't have metalworker? Maybe it's worker-less mud, not colorless 12-post, eh?

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The fact that this deck runs a large number of eldrazi puts that deck away from mud and closer to 12 post. The deck runs a large number of cards 12 post uses but without the supporting colors.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Or because the Eldrazi won't allow for him to adequately use Metalworker to consistently drop an Eldrazi into play, he decided to drop it. I only argue because he was probably told to come here to this thread from the 12 post thread.

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[Souleater734]

Well to be honest, this deck is so different that I don't think either can adequately classify what this is. I'm not saying it's bad, just different in significant ways from both archetypes.

[th3 w1z4rd]

Let's be honest most meta's are filled with delver at this point, sadly not UR delver which is the closest thing to a bye besides burn.

Burn is not a bye. It can easily kill you quickly even if you have a turn 1 Chalice on 1. Happened to me quite a few times. Even if you get Batterskull or Wurmcoil they can still win. Skullcrack in response to Wurmcoil attack for the loss. :( I imagine the decks with Glimmerposts would do better. Too bad those aren't MUD.

[Souleater734]

Some variants of mud run the 12 post base, which is the version I personally use. Anyway not only does chalice for 1 shut down most of their deck cards like lodestone golem and trinispheres can buy you a lot of time to either kill them or gain enough life so they can't kill you. Card like staff of domination wurmcoil trading post and batterskull are all really hard for them to interact with. I can see pop being brutal against hands With multiple ancient tombs but both the lock pieces do so much work that I have never lost to it and have never seen other mud players lose to it.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I imagine the decks with Glimmerposts would do better. Too bad those aren't MUD.

Ludacris. Wtf defines mud? My meta has a mud list that runs 12post, sol lands and factories alongside Metalworkers in an all artifact list with all the typical disruption, beats and combo reticent of a typical mud deck. Is that not mud? Maybe it's not your typical build, but the typical builds aren't hacking it. Maybe your deck's name should be Mud.

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[Alex Holland]

Ludacris. Wtf defines mud? My meta has a mud list that runs 12post, sol lands and factories alongside Metalworkers in an all artifact list with all the typical disruption, beats and combo reticent of a typical mud deck. Is that not mud? Maybe it's not your typical build, but the typical builds aren't hacking it. Maybe your deck's name should be Mud.

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The reason for this forum is to discuss a certain archetype. When a deck is too different and dont play defining cards of that archetype it belongs somewhere else. Or make a own thread. Not to be a jerk but thats how it works. Mud = artifacts.

The mana base ofcourse has nothing to do with the archetype. Mud isnt land based, i think there are about 15 different lands poeple use bij in mud.

I dont like the postbuilds. They are random and slow qith their come into play tapped tingies. Thats my experience because i have tried. Post really only shines in (green titan based) post builds.

[Alex Holland]

Actually, burn is not as easy as poeple say. I think its 65-35 in our favor.

A good burn player will give you a match even with chalice and trinisphere. 1 price of progress or 1 'sac 2 mountains 4 damage' card takes him real far if you dont watch out.
On the other hand, 1 platinum emperion into play and he is lost.

[Aes Sedai]

Or because the Eldrazi won't allow for him to adequately use Metalworker to consistently drop an Eldrazi into play, he decided to drop it. I only argue because he was probably told to come here to this thread from the 12 post thread.

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Yes this is exactly right. I built this as a colorless deck around Eldrazi and used that as my foundation. Being that it utilizes Eldrazi as the main creatures, I didn't think Metalworker as doing enough work to justify. When I posted in the 12 post/turbo eldrazi thread, they said the deck resembled more of a mud deck so I came here for some suggestions because I am still trying to improve it. I don't go to huge legacy tournaments, just some local stuff, but I still want it to be as good as it can.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

You are arguing to not discuss a list because of an exclusion of 4 cards that some otherwise typical mud (all artifact control builds) lists have also excluded, along with the inclusion of about 6 cards, one of which older mud lists did in fact have (Ulamog). Eldrazi are colorless, not artifact, true, but in a list without workers, it stands to reason that this fact is immaterial at best. Your distinctions you are basing your decision not to help this individual on are weak. You may not be trying to be a jerk, but it's definitely what you are coming across as.

Also, sometimes in deck theory you should remember that a.) Your experience with a setup may not be the norm, and b.) Play styles and local metas as well as budgets all factor in to a players choices. If new things aren't tried, lists won't evolve and innovations cannot occur.

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[kingtk3]

You are arguing to not discuss a list because of an exclusion of 4 cards that some otherwise typical mud (all artifact control builds) lists have also excluded, along with the inclusion of about 6 cards, one of which older mud lists did in fact have (Ulamog). Eldrazi are colorless, not artifact, true, but in a list without workers, it stands to reason that this fact is immaterial at best. Your distinctions you are basing your decision not to help this individual on are weak. You may not be trying to be a jerk, but it's definitely what you are coming across as.

Also, sometimes in deck theory you should remember that a.) Your experience with a setup may not be the norm, and b.) Play styles and local metas as well as budgets all factor in to a players choices. If new things aren't tried, lists won't evolve and innovations cannot occur.

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Are we talking about this list?



Lands (25)
4 Vesuva
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Deserted Temple
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Eldrazi Temple

Spells (22)
4 Expedition Map
4 Mind Stone
3 Everflowing Chalice
4 Quicksilver Amulet
3 All is Dust
3 Oblivion Stone
1 Karn Liberated

Creatures (13)
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Sundering Titan
2 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Sideboard (15)
2 Pithing Needle
2 Chalice of the Void
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Nevinyrral's Disk


If that's so I think you are mistaken: this list is not MUD because it lacks metalworker, this list is not MUD because it doesn't have prison nor combo elements.
A deck belongs to an archetype not by the single card choice, in that I agree with you, but in the phylosophy and objectives it wants to achieve; so I will not tell you that this deck is not MUD because it lacks all card of MUD's core aside the sol lands and wurmcoil (they are not only 4 metalworker that are missing), but because this deck wants to acomplish a total different goal.

This list is clearly a ramp deck: sol lands, post mana base, mind stone, everflowing chalice, quicksilver amulet, expedition map, mind stone... they are all ramp cards and not a single golem, chalice or trinisphere, which ARE the defining cards of the archetype, are played.

I don't want to inhibit creation, I simply think that this deck is closer to turboeldrazi than MUD, and that it may find more advice in that thread than in this simply because people there is more usde to this kind of strategy (and I'm a person that write there too ^_^ ).

[Secretly.A.Bee]

The control element is within the sideboard. First piece of advice is to move that to the main and then capitalize on it by increasing the amount played.

It's the list we are now talking about. If Holland had his way we wouldn't be. Do you disagree with playing an eldrazi version of mud? I have been talking with a good friend of mine who plays mud and stax only and we have just currently have had discussion based on eldrazi, eye of ugin and all is dust specifically, which is why I have been arguing to discuss this particular list here. Yes, right now it has a heavy ramp element to it. That is also what metalworker does: ramp. He's trying something new. It seems to me that metalworker didn't cut it, so he went looking for a new way to "ramp" into the bigger spells in his list. I think he may have gone about it the wrong way, but I can see why he would make some of the choices that he did. He's already said that he doesn't play tons of legacy, so it seems his errors could easily be walked through and corrected if given the opportunity. Unless of course, king to knight 3, you think it has better chances as turbo eldrazi and have more constructive advice aiming him to a more successful discussion and meaningful progression of his list.

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[Zorker]

Just a minor brainfart, how does the Staff of domination combo works?

[snurly]

Just a minor brainfart, how does the Staff of domination combo works?

Reveal at least 3 artifacts to Metalworker for 6 mana. 3 mana to untap Metalworker with Staff, 1 to untap Staff. Repeat and net 2+ mana per activation.

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[Alex Holland]

If he, or you for the matter wants to know more about a eldrazi post ramp deck he should ask the guys at that specific forum. It feels like spam now especially when you start calling people jerk because they polightely tell you your lost. Your list doesnt resemble the archetype of mud, not in cards, tactics or gameplan. I am very sorry but i cant make a cat out of this dog.

All is dust is being played in some lists and sideboard. Nice sweeper, altough expensive and no artifact. I rather use hellkite.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

You said jerk, and I never called you one. I simply agreed with something you said. Let's make sure we both understand that you weren't exactly polite. Or sorry. I'll drop the conversation because I can see that you have no intention of helping him or me with a list I have shown to not be spam, but rather an idea poorly implemented and still in, albeit on the outskirts, of the archetype. You bore me, Alex.

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[Alex Holland]

You bore me, Alex.

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Some people :laugh:

[Aes Sedai]

I think I decided on replacing my 3 Sundering Titan with 3 Steel Hellkite. I'll move the Sundering Titans to the sideboard over Nevinrall's Disk.

[Adri]

Well, maybe you can try running Crystal Vein.. Or cavern of souls for Golems or Constructs. I dont think wasteland is a must have tool, even though, its more a thing of prefference. Its just that sometimes a well placed wasteland the following turn you just Triniphere'd will steal you games.

Altenatively you can try some other utility lands such as Hall of the Bandit Lord or Buried Ruin! hall is sick with metalworker and kuldorha!

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Wasteland is a must have.

It shines in conjunction with lodestone golem and thorn of amethyst in all the combo match ups, and help take full benefit of sundering titan in the UWr miracle MU. Taking out wasteland does not make bad match ups any better (i.e. decks that runs both wasteland and discards, the best example being Jund), and it weakens good match ups. It can save your ass against Price of progress, same for affinity in situations where one artefact land less makes the difference b/t life and death.

It was not included in old combo-ish MUD welder version that tried to cheat Fattys into the game by using faithless looting discard engine, simply because it made the mana base too shaky. However, in a “classic” MUD mana base that I pilot, I strongly recommend to run them.

I never tested the 12 posts. I just do not feel like testing it. But, I think it should be the same for the 12 posts version. Sideboarding out a piece or a couple of wastelands in some MU is however a totally conceivable option.

[nerv2004]

New tech!!

Coercive portal.
4
Artifact
Will of the council - At the beginning of our upkeep, starting with you, each player votes for carnage or homage. If carnage gets more votes, sacrifice Coercive Portal and destroy all nonland permanents. If homage gets more votes or the vote is tied, draw a card.

http://mythicspoiler.com/cpy/cards/coerciveportal.html

Replacment for staff of nin/ bottled closter???

[Adri]

New tech!!

Coercive portal.
4
Artifact
Will of the council - At the beginning of our upkeep, starting with you, each player votes for carnage or homage. If carnage gets more votes, sacrifice Coercive Portal and destroy all nonland permanents. If homage gets more votes or the vote is tied, draw a card.

http://mythicspoiler.com/cpy/cards/coerciveportal.html

Replacment for staff of nin/ bottled closter???

It probably won't be legal in Legacy

[nerv2004]

It probably won't be legal in Legacy

I dont see why not. Conspiracy has 65 new cards with 52 of them legal in legacy and vintage. I imagine the 13 non legal ones will be the cards which reference how its drafted.

Edit: on second thoughts the conspiracies are probably going to be non legal.
http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/productarticle.aspx?x=mtg/tcg/conspiracy/productinfo (http://http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/productarticle.aspx?x=mtg/tcg/conspiracy/productinfo)

[kingtk3]

I think that the commander cards will.be illegal.

Sent from my mobile, forgive me for grammar errors.

[(nameless one)]

The Conspiracy cards type won't be legal, but that card will be.

I don't mind that on turn two. You probably won't get the destroy everything clause going unless you're actually ahead on the board. Its essentially a one sided Howling Mine for the most part and its not bad at all.

If only I have time to test it. Someone test it for me!

[lilevo]

I have been playing the 12 post version for a while now and after a lot of matches paper/MODO I really think cavern of souls should be in the deck, it really helps against the delver mu. Here is the list I have been currently playing:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/233462

I have also streamed a few Legacy Daily events on weeknights, I don't currently own cavern of souls online but I should have them for the next stream and it would be really cool to have a few MUD players watching next time.

[Alex Holland]

Wasteland is a must have.


No it's not. Actually i have been testing crystal veins in place of the wastelands. And they both have benefits; acceleration vs locking out. Fixing vs stopping their land combo. I dont know. Depends on the deck.

[Alex Holland]

The Conspiracy cards type won't be legal, but that card will be.

I don't mind that on turn two. You probably won't get the destroy everything clause going unless you're actually ahead on the board. Its essentially a one sided Howling Mine for the most part and its not bad at all.

If only I have time to test it. Someone test it for me!

I think its really bad. Wich MUD player would want his turn 1/2/3 permanents destroyed?

If id say sac ur trinisphere draw 2 would you do it? Destroy grim monolith and draw 3? I will not test it but then again i did never liked bottle cloister too :rolleyes:

[Adri]

No it's not. Actually i have been testing crystal veins in place of the wastelands. And they both have benefits; acceleration vs locking out. Fixing vs stopping their land combo. I dont know. Depends on the deck.

Crystal vein is an interesting issue. You have to be damn sure that your spell will not get countered when you sac it, otherwise the loss in tempo is devastating, except if it is a way to bait a counter into summoning trap (and even in this case, you have to be pretty sure of what you are doing). I tested it and I now include only one in my list as 9th solland, in order to increase the chance of casting lodestone golem on turn 2 in some match ups. If you want to paly more acceleration, I would recommend lotus petal.

About wasteland: The track record of the MUD lists that did well in tournament clearly shows that waste is a must have. Saying otherwise is just misleading for people who try to understand the deck.

[darkghost]

Wasteland is a must have.

It shines in conjunction with lodestone golem and thorn of amethyst in all the combo match ups, and help take full benefit of sundering titan in the UWr miracle MU. Taking out wasteland does not make bad match ups any better (i.e. decks that runs both wasteland and discards, the best example being Jund), and it weakens good match ups. It can save your ass against Price of progress, same for affinity in situations where one artefact land less makes the difference b/t life and death.

It was not included in old combo-ish MUD welder version that tried to cheat Fattys into the game by using faithless looting discard engine, simply because it made the mana base too shaky. However, in a “classic” MUD mana base that I pilot, I strongly recommend to run them.

I never tested the 12 posts. I just do not feel like testing it. But, I think it should be the same for the 12 posts version. Sideboarding out a piece or a couple of wastelands in some MU is however a totally conceivable option.

I agree fully. I almost took them out before a tourney. Good thing I didn't cuz I'm never gonna change my mind about them ever.

[lilevo]

I can see wasteland being bad with so many decks running DRS.

[nerv2004]

I think its really bad. Wich MUD player would want his turn 1/2/3 permanents destroyed?

Lets be fair, this card might as well just say, "at the beginning of your upkeep draw a card" as the other text is likely to never be relevant. The opponent is not going to let you nuke the board unless its to their advantage. Im really just comparing it to staff of nin now as bottled cloister has other uses, namely hand protection.

Your trading the pinging ability of staff for earlier card draw and a more reliable casting cost.

Re wasteland, its not necessary to play the deck but it certainly improves it in my opinion (grim monolith is necessary). Alex has a fair point that both cvein and wasteland are effecting the tempo of the game, just in different ways. Are you still playing the non welder/post version from your scg run?

[Alex Holland]

Lets be fair, this card might as well just say, "at the beginning of your upkeep draw a card" as the other text is likely to never be relevant. The opponent is not going to let you nuke the board unless its to their advantage. Im really just comparing it to staff of nin now as bottled cloister has other uses, namely hand protection.

Your trading the pinging ability of staff for earlier card draw and a more reliable casting cost.

Re wasteland, its not necessary to play the deck but it certainly improves it in my opinion (grim monolith is necessary). Alex has a fair point that both cvein and wasteland are effecting the tempo of the game, just in different ways. Are you still playing the non welder/post version from your scg run?

Eh u got me mixed up i hate post builds ;)

History does show that cards that give the opponent a choice are eh bad. I think those cards should be red btw..But ill let the believers who will test it free to convince me otherwise. 4 mana is a lot better then 5 in MUD.

[Adri]

Lets be fair, this card might as well just say, "at the beginning of your upkeep draw a card" as the other text is likely to never be relevant. The opponent is not going to let you nuke the board unless its to their advantage. Im really just comparing it to staff of nin now as bottled cloister has other uses, namely hand protection.

Your trading the pinging ability of staff for earlier card draw and a more reliable casting cost.

Re wasteland, its not necessary to play the deck but it certainly improves it in my opinion (grim monolith is necessary). Alex has a fair point that both cvein and wasteland are effecting the tempo of the game, just in different ways. Are you still playing the non welder/post version from your scg run?

Ok, so then, the only “must have” items in the deck are the soft lock package (e.g. cotv, trinisphere, golem and sphere of resistance), of which you want to include a sufficient number to regularly have one in your opening hand (from 8 to 10). Then you need the mana to consistently play then in the first two turn of the game, because the earliest you play a soft lock piece, the better it is. So sollands IN. So the core of the decks are those eighteen cards.

Then you have to build the deck around that. Soft lock pieces translate into the game as multiple "time walks". You’d better play the most powerful cards available in the legacy pool to make a competitive deck. So, going into a ramp strategy is the right direction. In that regard, grim monolith is an obvious choice, but wasteland is too, not only because it is powerful but also because it has obvious synergies with the soft lock package. It gives you more "time walks".

I experienced to draw wastelands and felt that the card was bad in many games. Why? There is a rule of thumb in Legacy according to which it is the player with the lowest curve that should play its wasteland first. MUD is the wasteland.dec with the highest mana curve (and by far). So we are more often in a position to get wasted than not. I think that is why wasteland is sometimes awkward, and one may be tempted to take them out of the list. But that would be an error in my view.

In terms of MU, MUD has balanced to poor match up againt aggro wasteland.dec. But the deck is build to crush all the other decks that do not attack our mana base and let us attack theirs: Miracle, UR delver, Storm, Reanimator et alii. One cannot win against everything, but one can choose to focus on his strength. That is what maked the deck a viable choice in many metagames.

Again, this is not true for the welder-faithless looting build that goes for a comboesque route. But welder builds are not very well positioned in today’s meta, because the aggr

I think some of you will still disagree, and that is perfectly fine with me. It is up to beginners to make their own choice.

(And as far as deathrite shaman is concerned, phyrexian revoker is your friend)

[Souleater734]

Ya that's correct, I don't mean to sound like a smart ass but you guys don't have to wasteland at the first opportunity. On the draw t1 wasteland against any daze deck is fine and often times correct. Obviously you probably know this but I see a lot of new players with this deck wasteland the turn they play it every time.

[Aesir]

I have been playing the 12 post version for a while now and after a lot of matches paper/MODO I really think cavern of souls should be in the deck, it really helps against the delver mu. Here is the list I have been currently playing:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/233462

I have also streamed a few Legacy Daily events on weeknights, I don't currently own cavern of souls online but I should have them for the next stream and it would be really cool to have a few MUD players watching next time.

Do you have a link to your stream? It would be pretty cool to pick up some tips and tricks from watching a more experienced MUD player play.

[nerv2004]

Eh u got me mixed up i hate post builds ;)

I know, didnt you play a version with factories at scg a while ago?

[Shawn_ozz]

I'm new here. Hey everyone. Thanks for the great thread. I've been running this at my local shop's legacy night and play testing with pretty good success. Out of the top decks UR delver, sneak, food chain, lands, uw stone blade, uwr delver, storm, miracles, explorer pod, and dredge. I can pull a win about 50%. I haven't played bug, taxes, thresh, jund, or painter.

I believe this deck to be positioned very well right now. Chalice at 1-2 shuts most all the decks in the meta down. Then the sphere effects just close games fast. Not to mention I've turn 2 a Karn that got the scoop.

I don't really run a side board but what I've been thinking of doing is running the metalworker forgemaster combo for game 2 to throw the op off. Any sideboard suggestions would be great. Thanks

Deck: MUD Stax

Creatures:10
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Steel Hellkite
2 Wurmcoil Engine

Spells:26
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
3 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
4 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack
2 Staff of Nin
2 Karn Liberated

Lands:24
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Wasteland

I don't really run a side board but what I've been thinking of doing is running the metalworker forgemaster combo for game 2 to throw the op off. Any sideboard suggestions would be great. Thanks

Creatures:19
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Steel Hellkite
2 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus

Spells:17
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Staff of Domination
4 Trinisphere
2 Staff of Nin

Lands:24
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Wasteland

SB: 15
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spellskite
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 All Is Dust
2 Spine of Ish Sah

[darkghost]

@Shawn_Ozz: you're better off having forgemaster combo stuff main and side in stax and others game 2. I play stax main and don't switch them out g2 but i get people siding in pithing needles and revokers automatically game 2. You having the forge master g2, in that case, can end up getting you the game loss.

[Souleater734]

It seems odd to be running smokestacks with crucible of worlds or something.

[Shawn_ozz]

@Souleater The flex spot is the staff or Karn for crucible if I'm getting wasted game 1. Most of the time I'll usually be sacing a tapped monolith, a duplicate trinisphere, or a chalice dropped at 0. Seldom do I need to stax for 2+

@Darkghost What if I want to stay with the stax theme g2? The second list is what I had been running. It just didn't feel as consistent. I'd probably run this sb. Maybe changing the spellskite's since I don't have to protect metalworker or forgemaster. Any suggestions??

3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spellskite
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 All Is Dust
2 Spine of Ish Sah

What do they name with revoker/needle?? The only thing activated in my list is monolith which pithing can't hit and Karn. Ok I see what you're saying do the combo g1 then when they put in the needle effects for g2 run the stax sb. Seems good!!

Coercieved Portal seems ok. I'll be trying them out but I do like to ping a delver, mother, lavamancer there's lots or x/1's out there!! I don't think it's gonna come out any sooner then staff tho. We can't generate 4 mana on t1 but can get 7 t2.

[Souleater734]

I don't know I've never been a fan of transformative sideboards in anything other the combo decks that can win game 1 99% of the time. You're probably just better off just playing rhe stax without forgemaster and metalworkers in the 75

[darkghost]

The flex spot is the staff or Karn for crucible if I'm getting wasted game 1. Most of the time I'll usually be sacing a tapped monolith, a duplicate trinisphere, or a chalice dropped at 0. Seldom do I need to stax for 2+

Yeah, Stax @ 2 is usually good enough. If you're count up to 3, it must mean that you're in a really bad position, or you'll end up giving up your permanent count lead soon.


@Darkghost What if I want to stay with the stax theme g2? The second list is what I had been running. It just didn't feel as consistent. I'd probably run this sb. Maybe changing the spellskite's since I don't have to protect metalworker or forgemaster. Any suggestions??

I suggest siding the stax out against tempo and storm combo, especially if you're on the draw. Stax vs tempo is manageable if you're on the play because of Chalice and Sphere. Against Sneak and Show, and Reanimator, you can keep 2 to 3 in still. Flickerwisp will for sure mess your count.

For your other list, let's see what other people might suggest.


What do they name with revoker/needle?? The only thing activated in my list is monolith which pithing can't hit and Karn. Ok I see what you're saying do the combo g1 then when they put in the needle effects for g2 run the stax sb. Seems good!!

Not against tempo on the draw, unless they are cutting corners on their land count. (Delver decks and burn)



I don't know I've never been a fan of transformative sideboards in anything other the combo decks that can win game 1 99% of the time. You're probably just better off just playing the stax without forgemaster and metalworkers in the 75

Metalworkers can still be broken, and I would always choose to keep it in.

[nerv2004]

Coercieved Portal seems ok. I'll be trying them out but I do like to ping a delver, mother, lavamancer there's lots or x/1's out there!! I don't think it's gonna come out any sooner then staff tho. We can't generate 4 mana on t1 but can get 7 t2.

Sure you can have 7 mana on t2 but your probably wont. You ar FAR more likely to have 4 mana on t2 then the nut draw. By having it at 4 mana it just makes it more likely that you will drop it a turn earlyier, giving you an extra card then you would have with staff. It certainly needs testing and most likely wont make a world of difference but its little tweeks like this which are important to the decks development.

[Shawn_ozz]

@nerv2004. I see what u mean. Very seldom to we actually get to 7. Deck development is he name of the game lol.

@darkghost. Being on the play with this deck makes you really thing about how you play definitely against tempo. A loss g1 makes a hard decision for g2. What would you suggest cutting MB for metalworkers? Plus do u think it beneficial to put lightning greaves back in?

@souleater. I think I'm gonna be developing the stax version for a while. I need to get a list of the upcoming tournaments in the Dallas area so I can get those weekends off. I just missed scg Dallas. One of the guys Austin plays at our shop a Geek World Tyler, TX Austin Palmer made top 8.

[Shawn_ozz]

@nerv2004. I see what u mean. Very seldom to we actually get to 7. Deck development is he name of the game lol.

@darkghost. Being on the play with this deck makes you really thing about how you play definitely against tempo. A loss g1 makes a hard decision for g2. What would you suggest cutting MB for metalworkers? Plus do u think it beneficial to put lightning greaves back in?

@souleater. I think I'm gonna be developing the stax version for a while. I need to get a list of the upcoming tournaments in the Dallas area so I can get those weekends off. I just missed scg Dallas. One of the guys Austin Palmer plays at our shop a Geek World Tyler, TX made top 8.

[Souleater734]

For anyone playing the Post version how do you feel about upping the count of lands or adding crucible of worlds to the deck. It seems like every time I lose it's because of getting mana screwed by the opponent in the first few turns before I can get to metalworker or lodestone. I've been flirting with the idea of cutting karn for a while now because it always just seems like a win more card, the only time it's really been great is in the mirror but this deck is fringe enough that I feel like preparing for the mirror to be a useless endeavor, I've lost many games with karn in play or stuck in my hand. I've also never been impressed with the forgemasters, sure you can win but without greaves the lodestone + forgemaster beatdowns end the game at about the same time, and forgemaster facilitates a lot of dead cards, namely blightsteel and redundant forgemasters have never been great. I feel like it would be fine if the deck was blue for thirst for knowledge and brainstorm but that's not really possible. Again the only time forgemaster has been good for me is in the mirror, it is also ok against elves but I feel like there are just better cards. In my experience forgemaster has just been a 3/5 that I couldn't activate because it wouldn't do anything or I didn't have chalice against RUG because the threat of stifle. Anyway the deck has been performing really similar to something like rug in so because when RUG is ahead it feels like the best deck ever, like with our nut draws, but you have to work really hard to win from stalemate or from a deficit. What I've been thinking of switching to is a stax version, the basic shell being lodestone, metalworker, and tangle wire + stacks. I've been thinking of a mana base of something like 8 sol lands, 4 wasteland, 4 rishadon port, maybe mox diamonds, 4 monolith, then probably fill out the rest of the lands base with stuff leading up to 20 lands at least. I can post the current rough draft when I get back from school.

[darkghost]

@Souleater734: Yup, that's why I switched to MUDstax. I felt the exact similar things about Karn, Blightsteel, and Forgemaster... Same thing even with Greaves and Staff of Domination.

Also, I run 24 lands, but not the full set of 12post. I tested Ports before and they are good too, and great against 12post landbases.

@Shawn_ozz: Take a look at Souleater's post. Those are good suggestions on what to cut. Karn Liberated and Metalworker are not synergetic, though it still works when you have a lot of artifacts in your hand. Forgemaster and Stax will make you sacrifice a lot together. Some more easier spots to cut are some Spheres (Trini or Resistance). I loved Phyrexian Metamorphs when I tested them. My next step of testing is taking out the Stax and adding in more beats (Steel Hellkites and Metamorph), but I have considered MUDstax to be a solid build and is a go-to strategy for me.

[Alex Holland]

Staxx is a dead end. Legacy is filled with decks that run on 1 / 2 mana spells, i dont staxx is legit because of this.

Not that i am against staxx-effects, i loved lodestone, tanglewire etc. Especially tangle wire with welder out! But as a whole it doesnt work. Thats why i just run 4 chalice and 4 trinisphere because of obvious reasons.

forgemaster is awesome, even without haste equipment. Its a 3/5 for 5 wich isnt bad with sol lands. block batterskull and tarmogoyf all day. The only thing to fear is swords of plowshares but that isnt important with chalice as backup. blightsteel wins you games as does emperion.

ratchet bomb & steel hellkite deserve more love!!!!

[Souleater734]

If I want a beater and a blocker for 5 mana I want Karn's Silver Golem. Sure forgemaster has more versatility but it also adds more dead cards

[Souleater734]

This is the deck that I have been testing the last couple days:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Cavern of Souls

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Karn's, Silver Golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Steel Hellkite

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Grim Monolith
2 Staff of Domination
2 Ratchet Bomb

The deck has been performing pretty well and so far I haven't missed the Forgemasters. Usually the games go resolve lock piece followed up with Lodestone or metalworker then just win while they can't really do anything. Karn has been fine, though I wish his activated ability had more use than turning crucible or staff into 3/3s but the body has been fine. I'm still not sure if the 4/2 split of Wurmcoil and Hellkite is correct. It used to be 3/3 but I always wanted wurmcoil over hellkite most of the time. The sideboard is still a work in progress but I like the step up so far.

1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Spellskite
2 Karn Liberated
3 Ghost Quarter
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 All is Dust

I've been considering cutting the spellskites for spine of ish sah or something for the show and tell match up but no one at my lgs is playing show and tell anymore so it seems fine for now. The ghost quaters have been interesting and I still don't know if 3 is the correct number or if I want them at all. I did get a miracles palyer in ghost quarter lock in testing today, it is also better than cavern against D&T or jund, and has been a lot better than the ports against delver. Karn Liberated has been fine in the sideboard against decks that can't deny mana like miracles, stoneblade, and is fine against shardless bug since they can't really wasteland anything besides port under a trinisphere or lodestone. All is dust hasn't really done much so that is something else worth considering. I like the 4th crucible for abrupt decay decks and has been fine against D&T as well. I've only done limited testing so far so any advice is appreciated.

[Alex Holland]

If I want a beater and a blocker for 5 mana I want Karn's Silver Golem. Sure forgemaster has more versatility but it also adds more dead cards

Dead cards? You know whats a dead card? Staff of domination is a dead card 95% of the time. It only functions when u have a metalworker out, wich survives then get staff in uncountered, then still have 3 artifacts on hand in a deck that likes to play..

Forgemaster is a win con and a decent body. Its also a safe button to forge in duplicant or emperion against certain decks. Blightsteel is awesome because of indestructible and one hit oops i win reasons. Getting hellkite eot and a one sided ratchet of your choice? Awesome.

[Souleater734]

Dead cards? You know whats a dead card? Staff of domination is a dead card 95% of the time. It only functions when u have a metalworker out, wich survives then get staff in uncountered, then still have 3 artifacts on hand in a deck that likes to play..

Forgemaster is a win con and a decent body. Its also a safe button to forge in duplicant or emperion against certain decks. Blightsteel is awesome because of indestructible and one hit oops i win reasons. Getting hellkite eot and a one sided ratchet of your choice? Awesome.

Blightsteel is easily the worst card to draw, I would rather have redundant trinispheres or chalices than a blightsteel in hand. Sure eot hellkite or instant speed duplicant is fine but you are sacrificing 3 artifacts each time you activate it. Do you realize how often in an interactive game where you don't have any spare artifacts in play to actually use the forgemaster. Like I said in an earlier post forgemaster just doesn't do enough unless you want to cut or shave other cards to add a more versatile forgemaster package, but that adds stuff like duplicant or spine to your deck which are also dead in a lot of matchups. Staff doesn't just combo with metalworker, I like the versatility at such little cost, compared to forgemaster, that the staff provides. Being able to ambush attackers with staffs untap, reduce your opponents attackers or blockers with the tap creature ability, and if all else fails you can draw a card if you really need to. Another reason for staff over forgemaster is that staff is 2 cards in the build I just posted and the forgemaster packages are at least 5 cards, 1 that is dead when you draw it unless you have metalworker, unlike staff which isn't completely useless without the metalworker.

[darkghost]

@Souleater734: While Alex has a good build of his own, you won't get much discussing card choices with him, other than bashing and nonconstructive feedback.

Steel Hellkites handle the Merfolks, Goblins, and Elves match ups for you (over All is Dust)?

[nerv2004]

@Souleater734: While Alex has a good build of his own, you won't get much discussing card choices with him, other than bashing and nonconstructive feedback.

Thats a bit to harsh. His second point was very valid regarding the utility of forgemaster, especially post sideboard when your looking that silver bullet card.

@Souleater734: id rather play karn in a more prison styled deck as your describing, as late game he turns other cards into beaters, but for the more traditional version forgemaster just provides so much utility.

[darkghost]

Thats a bit to harsh. His second point was very valid regarding the utility of forgemaster, especially post sideboard when your looking that silver bullet card.

@Souleater734: id rather play karn in a more prison styled deck as your describing, as late game he turns other cards into beaters, but for the more traditional version forgemaster just provides so much utility.

Me and Souleater are trying to build stax. And no way stax is a dead end in legacy. Telling us that it is does not help in any way at all... And you don't think that's harsh? I have used stax to great success, and is no way a dead card in legacy.

Forgemasters are good, but not what I am aiming for, and not what I really wanna play with.

[Alex Holland]

Blightsteel is easily the worst card to draw, I would rather have redundant trinispheres or chalices than a blightsteel in hand. Sure eot hellkite or instant speed duplicant is fine but you are sacrificing 3 artifacts each time you activate it. Do you realize how often in an interactive game where you don't have any spare artifacts in play to actually use the forgemaster. Like I said in an earlier post forgemaster just doesn't do enough unless you want to cut or shave other cards to add a more versatile forgemaster package, but that adds stuff like duplicant or spine to your deck which are also dead in a lot of matchups. Staff doesn't just combo with metalworker, I like the versatility at such little cost, compared to forgemaster, that the staff provides. Being able to ambush attackers with staffs untap, reduce your opponents attackers or blockers with the tap creature ability, and if all else fails you can draw a card if you really need to. Another reason for staff over forgemaster is that staff is 2 cards in the build I just posted and the forgemaster packages are at least 5 cards, 1 that is dead when you draw it unless you have metalworker, unlike staff which isn't completely useless without the metalworker.

Karn liberated is also a dead draw sometimes, thats why i cut it. Its nice when out but it isnt a certain thread. Mud should utllilise its mana advantage by playing threads any turn. I love a blightsteel in hand. Not 2 but 1 is fine. I play 3 copper gnomes. Uncounterable cheating for a reasonable amount of mana. When i drop gnomes they must answer. When i follow by a metalworker they must answer. Forgemaster? Must answer too. I dont really care about the sac 3 artifacts thing. A: activate and i most certainly wil win. B: i play artifacts. And not only that i play 8 manlands who can become artifacts too for saccing. I never had a helpless forgemaster out.

[Alex Holland]

Me and Souleater are trying to build stax. And no way stax is a dead end in legacy. Telling us that it is does not help in any way at all... And you don't think that's harsh? I have used stax to great success, and is no way a dead card in legacy.

Forgemasters are good, but not what I am aiming for, and not what I really wanna play with.

Well if i look at souleaterslist i wander does 4 chalice 4 sphere make it stax? Or is ot the 2 crucible that makes it stax for you?

I heard white had a few good stax cards so splashing that seems mandatory. Thalia obviously is lodestone 5-8. How does karn interact with humility? Tangle wire is awesome too and very staxy.

[darkghost]

Well if i look at souleaterslist i wander does 4 chalice 4 sphere make it stax? Or is ot the 2 crucible that makes it stax for you?

I heard white had a few good stax cards so splashing that seems mandatory. Thalia obviously is lodestone 5-8. How does karn interact with humility? Tangle wire is awesome too and very staxy.


He is thinking of using a stax like version, but as it is he is not using stax yet. I am. And thank you for your suggestions.

You added a 4th Blinkmoth to your list? How are your MU's against UG variants (bug, rug) percentage-wise?

[Souleater734]

Karn liberated is also a dead draw sometimes, thats why i cut it. Its nice when out but it isnt a certain thread. Mud should utllilise its mana advantage by playing threads any turn. I love a blightsteel in hand. Not 2 but 1 is fine. I play 3 copper gnomes. Uncounterable cheating for a reasonable amount of mana. When i drop gnomes they must answer. When i follow by a metalworker they must answer. Forgemaster? Must answer too. I dont really care about the sac 3 artifacts thing. A: activate and i most certainly wil win. B: i play artifacts. And not only that i play 8 manlands who can become artifacts too for saccing. I never had a helpless forgemaster out.

1. I cut Karn, Liberated for similar reasons, except with Karn there were times when I would lose with him in play. Karn is great against control decks without anyway to cut off mana so I think its a fine sideboard card for decks like miracles and such
2. Copper Gnomes isn't really used in the most successful list, not saying it's bad, just not popular
3. There are times with forgemaster in the post version where are you have in play is forgemaster, 3 sphere, and Chalice for 1 in play, and that is where forgemaster is extremely bad.

I was only talking about the post version of the deck, the version I have the most experience with, I can't speak for forgemaster in other versions since I don't have the same experience level with other variants.

P.S. It is also very likely you will only have a couple threats in your opening hand and won't draw any and your opponent can just run you out of threat, this is especially likely off mulligans , or even ok 7 card hands that you can't really mulligan since it has mana and some lock pieces but only 1 or 2 threats.

[Alex Holland]

1. I cut Karn, Liberated for similar reasons, except with Karn there were times when I would lose with him in play. Karn is great against control decks without anyway to cut off mana so I think its a fine sideboard card for decks like miracles and such
2. Copper Gnomes isn't really used in the most successful list, not saying it's bad, just not popular
3. There are times with forgemaster in the post version where are you have in play is forgemaster, 3 sphere, and Chalice for 1 in play, and that is where forgemaster is extremely bad.

I was only talking about the post version of the deck, the version I have the most experience with, I can't speak for forgemaster in other versions since I don't have the same experience level with other variants.

P.S. It is also very likely you will only have a couple threats in your opening hand and won't draw any and your opponent can just run you out of threat, this is especially likely off mulligans , or even ok 7 card hands that you can't really mulligan since it has mana and some lock pieces but only 1 or 2 threats.

Karn is really bad when he cant be dropped fast or when the opponent has a lot of creatures. Shooting one a turn just wont work sometimes. Thats why i run all is dust sb, at least that clears their board.

Copper gnome is very rare, and thats a shame. I run a lot of creatures. 4 wurmcoil 3 hellkite 1 blightsteel 1 emperion 4 kuldotha. Its just a tuned up grim monolith for me. Sol land into gnomes is just something that u want to answer. If not i might drop a second sol land, pass then do something nasty EOT. Youll never know. Plus it makes what you drop uncounterable. Sweet.

I can imagine u dont want to sac ur lock pieces, maybe i dont care because i run 8 manlands. i very often sac a factorie or nexus to forgemaster to keep from hurting my board presence.
8 Manlands really shines, feels like i am playing some sort of manland deck sometimes. a 3/3 factory is a awesome blocker early game, and a nexus kills delver and buys time against big guys like marit-liege. A turn can be all u need when forgemaster is out. I think thet also help engulf an opponent late game.

- regarding stax did anyone ever explored the way tangle wire has synergy with storage matrix? matrix goes off after untapphase, wire in upkeep? Maybe with welder?

[Alex Holland]

Also http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=7410&d=242410&f=LE top 3 dies from a single blood moon.. wtf

[lilevo]

Do you have a link to your stream? It would be pretty cool to pick up some tips and tricks from watching a more experienced MUD player play.

Here is the link http://www.twitch.tv/romariovidal

During the week I play in the 11pm (eastern time) daily and on Saturdays I play on the 10 am and 2 pm daily events.

[Aesir]

@Lilevo: Awesome, thanks.

@Everyone: Post MUD on camera right now R8 of Indianapolis.

EDIT: Nicely done. Hopefully we'll see him in top 8. :smile:

[medleymr]

Hi All,

I've been playing MUD for about a year now, and reading this site for nearly as long. Thank you for all of the advice and ideas! I played in SCG Indy and finished 24th. I was in the top 10 for most of the day and just missed a camera match. (I was next to play, but they decided there wasn't enough time left to cut into our match.) Anyways, here's the list I played. I'm going to the Invitational in Columbus, and would appreciate your feedback. Thanks again!

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1198020

[Aesir]

Hi All,

I've been playing MUD for about a year now, and reading this site for nearly as long. Thank you for all of the advice and ideas! I played in SCG Indy and finished 24th. I was in the top 10 for most of the day and just missed a camera match. (I was next to play, but they decided there wasn't enough time left to cut into our match.) Anyways, here's the list I played. I'm going to the Invitational in Columbus, and would appreciate your feedback. Thanks again!

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1198020

Welcome, and congratulations on the finish. How have the Citadels been for you? I've been testing them in place of Wasteland recently (I run the post version), and I've found them quite useful. Have you missed the wastes at all?

[medleymr]

Citadels are great on the first turn when you can't play a two drop right away. You know it won't get wasted before you can play a three drop. It also works really well with the Forgemaster ability.

I would run wasteland if I had it, but the price has gone up too much for my wallet. :frown: I substituted the Crystal Veins and have been pretty happy with them. Without wastes, I have to focus more on the combo finish and a little less on the lock down.

[darkghost]

Medleymr, welcome. Top 10 is pretty good. How was your record in that tourney?

I find myself still struggling with the Reanimator match-up (running MUDpost-Stax). Those Tidespout Tyrants are annoying along with counter-magic against lock pieces, even with Tormod's Crypts in, Reanimator still has advantage against me. I had been wanting to keep Sphere of Resistances as much as possible, but it might be time to switch them out.

Anybody else finding the Reanimator match-up hard to win? Suggestions for solutions?


On the other hand, my tests against Sneak and Show showed good results for MUD. We may struggle hard against them game 1, but after siding in Duplicant, Spine of Ish Sah, Ensnaring Bridge, and more Phyrexian Revokers, it is easily winnable. Chalice for 2 stops their only hope to get rid of multiple Ensnaring Bridges (Echoing Truth).

[Will_L]

Depending on your build I'm thinking if you can realistically go, T1 Chalice into T2 3Ball then you should be able to win.

I'm sure this isn't any special insight but I think landing early lock pieces followed Wurmcoil is what you need to beat Reanimator.

[darkghost]

Depending on your build I'm thinking if you can realistically go, T1 Chalice into T2 3Ball then you should be able to win.

I'm sure this isn't any special insight but I think landing early lock pieces followed Wurmcoil is what you need to beat Reanimator.

Thank you for the reply.

Yup, I just hope for a good draw. Though, I run Sphere of Resistance and not Trinisphere. I will be testing during the week if it will make a difference. Getting the Chalice for 1 countered hurts.

Also, I've been siding in the only 2 Tormod's Crypt that I had space for and 3 Ensnaring Bridge. I've upped the Crypt count to 3 for now, but will need to test later. I use the Bridges for Sneak and Show, and 2 against Elves, so I don't really know if I should drop them.

[Alex Holland]

Thank you for the reply.

Yup, I just hope for a good draw. Though, I run Sphere of Resistance and not Trinisphere. I will be testing during the week if it will make a difference. Getting the Chalice for 1 countered hurts.

Also, I've been siding in the only 2 Tormod's Crypt that I had space for and 3 Ensnaring Bridge. I've upped the Crypt count to 3 for now, but will need to test later. I use the Bridges for Sneak and Show, and 2 against Elves, so I don't really know if I should drop them.

Faerie macabre is better then crypt against reanimate. It cannot be countered and he cant see it coming, so let him cast entomb, followed by reanimate THEN remove his griselbrand from his library LOL.

Maybe i should try a single bridge, its tutorable. i do run 3 duplicant, wich is also good against any other deck in wich u need to quickly remove annoying things. Ive seen some strange UWG fauna shaman decks popping up here lately. :tongue:

[medleymr]

My record was 6-2-1 (last round intentional draw dropped me from 15th to 24th)

I was able to beat a reanimator deck without the lock pieces or the crypts. I activated forgemaster when he tried to target it with a Tyrant. I tutored for Duplicant to exile the Tyrant. Then he exhumed Griselbrand, but I was able to bring back the Forgemaster. The next turn I drew lightning greaves and tutored Blightsteel. He was forced to block with Griselbrand. His next turn he exhumed Griselbrand again and used him to chump block. He didn't have anything left for the last turn.

I got a little lucky that match, but I feel like I have a slight advantage over Reanimator over all.

[Alex Holland]

So what was your sideboard then?

This is what i have now:

4x faerie macabre (reanimate, dredge, lands)
3x tormods crypt (" ")

1x all is dust - next to 1 mainboard (heavy creature decks goblins, elves, GW)
3x duplicant (reanimate, sneak show, some creaturedecks with combo potential)

1x revoker - next to 3 mainboard
1x trinisphere - next to 3 mainboard (canadian, burn)
1x ratchet bomb - next to 3 mainboard

Quitte happy with this.. ratchet bomb may be taken out for something if anyone has a useful suggestion?

[Will_L]

Thank you for the reply.

Yup, I just hope for a good draw. Though, I run Sphere of Resistance and not Trinisphere. I will be testing during the week if it will make a difference. Getting the Chalice for 1 countered hurts.

Also, I've been siding in the only 2 Tormod's Crypt that I had space for and 3 Ensnaring Bridge. I've upped the Crypt count to 3 for now, but will need to test later. I use the Bridges for Sneak and Show, and 2 against Elves, so I don't really know if I should drop them.

I like Trinisphere more than Sphere of Resistance main deck at least... Because you can get more free wins off Trinisphere I think. Sphere of Resistance is very good, but I think Trinisphere gives you more time to play Forgemaster, Razormane Masticore, Wurmcoil, Karn or whatever you plan to win with.

If you are on the play getting your Chalice Force of Will'd isn't so rough if you have a turn 2 lock piece, consider they only have 5 cards in hand now... If they do not have an explosive Lotus Petal start, if you drop Trinisphere on your second turn you should be firmly in the drivers seat.

I like Sphere of Resistance... but more as a SB option... The more I consider it the more I think Trinisphere is just more powerful. Both are strong against tempo and storm based combo, but I think the 3Ball is the better of the two. Not that I wouldn't play both in my 75...

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I think that on the surface people think that Sphere of Resistance is something comparable to Trinisphere, but as it turns out (in my experience, at least) it's a lot more like Chalice. It is, as Chalice often is, a 2 drop, and while it doesn't completely shut down the cmc like Chalice does, it strips most cards of a lot of value. Suddenly a Brainstorm that would have been awesome becomes a slightly different and often worse Impulse. It makes any Snapcaster shenanigans cost 2 more, which often makes it unplayable. I also dislike the dissynergy between Trinisphere and other Sphere effects (lodestone and Thalia, specifically) especially the 2cmc slot due to the layers the two effects are applied. I think 3sphere is the better of the two also, but I think that SoResistance is really good alongside Lodestone in tandem with 12post, and Thorn of Amethyst is a solid choice with Thalia, and finally 3sphere is best in the most traditional of artifact control builds that center around sol lands.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Aesir]

Citadels are great on the first turn when you can't play a two drop right away. You know it won't get wasted before you can play a three drop. It also works really well with the Forgemaster ability.

I would run wasteland if I had it, but the price has gone up too much for my wallet. :frown: I substituted the Crystal Veins and have been pretty happy with them. Without wastes, I have to focus more on the combo finish and a little less on the lock down.

Not running waste isn't really a budget thing for me, I just don't like how it's performing so I'm testing new waters.

@Everyone: Thoughts on the list?


4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Darksteel Citadel

4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Metalworker
1 Sundering Titan
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Steel Hellkite

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Trinisphere
2 Batterskull
1 Staff of Domination
1 Spine of Ish Sah

SB:
3 All is Dust
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Spellskite
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Ratchet Bomb

[Alex Holland]

Actually i like a t1 trinisphere more then a t1 chalice. Decks cant respond for 2 turns or counter. So this is like a timewalk, because you will have that mana.

Wasteland is essential, you cant play legacy without ways to remove threads. Some lands may be considered threats. Plus its an incredible strong card against 3 color decks. We have sol lands, so taking out a color making all those cards in his hands useless thats incredible. Thats why wasteland is a staple. No reason this doesnt count for mud imho.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I agree with turn 1 trini. It's one of the best turn one plays in the game of magic in any format ever. This and a single wasteland wins the tempo match up so often it's epic. I still disagree that it's essential, but I don't think that anyone will ever need to justify its inclusion in this archetype.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[(nameless one)]

Hi All,

I've been playing MUD for about a year now, and reading this site for nearly as long. Thank you for all of the advice and ideas! I played in SCG Indy and finished 24th. I was in the top 10 for most of the day and just missed a camera match. (I was next to play, but they decided there wasn't enough time left to cut into our match.) Anyways, here's the list I played. I'm going to the Invitational in Columbus, and would appreciate your feedback. Thanks again!

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1198020

Are you the guy refer below?


@Lilevo: Awesome, thanks.

@Everyone: Post MUD on camera right now R8 of Indianapolis.

EDIT: Nicely done. Hopefully we'll see him in top 8. :smile:

[darkghost]

I'm wrong to side in Ensnaring Bridges against Reanimator. The beating might hurt early on but it is quite manageable too after testing the MU more. We can come back. And 3sphere against Sphere of Resistance vs Tidespout, 3sphere is greatly better. Reanimator never reaches 6 land counts down, so he can only bounce 1 permanent per spell with Tidespout.

I'm always torn between 3sphere and SoResistance. They are both good in their own way.

@Alex Holland: I will try those Faerie Macabres out.

My current sideboard is:
3 Tormod's Crypt (will be switching out some with Faerie Macabre)
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Powder Keg
2 All is Dust
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Masticore
1 Batterskull
1 Duplicant
2 Spine of Ish Sah

[darkghost]

An interesting take on MUD where Lodestone Golems are replaced with Precursor Golem
http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/74232

[Souleater734]

The card is interesting, though I don't know why one would consider cutting lodestone, which in my opinion is the best creature in the deck, for a 5cmc beater. I think th card is fine for replacing 5+ cmc cards but cutting lodestone seems like the wrong approach. Since I've been advocating cutting forgemaster it seems like a fine replacement for that. And if you still want forgemaster cutting karn, staff, or shaving sundering titans but cutting lodestone just seems wrong.

[darkghost]

Not that I am suggesting it or anything, just saying that some people did do that and got good results. Personally for me, Lodestone is an auto include, and mostly a 4 of.

[gambler]

anyone messing around with energy chamber or coretapper? Seems really strong with everflowing chalice for mana and interacts with jitte,2 bombs, aethervials ect....Also what about skyship weatherlight for a draw mechanic/deck thin. would like some thoughts on these.

oh almost forgot what about umbilicus paired in a stax deck makes almost a early win cond with tanglewire.

[Aesir]

Are you the guy refer below?

No, as both lists are quite different. (One has wastes, one doesn't) The commentator's mentioned another MUD deck doing well, so I assume that MUD player is medlymr.

[darkghost]

anyone messing around with energy chamber or coretapper? Seems really strong with everflowing chalice for mana and interacts with jitte,2 bombs, aethervials ect....Also what about skyship weatherlight for a draw mechanic/deck thin. would like some thoughts on these.

oh almost forgot what about umbilicus paired in a stax deck makes almost a early win cond with tanglewire.

Coretapper and energy chamber engines are slow.

Skyship Weather light ties up your mana. Bottled Cloister doesnt, Staff of Nin or even Staff of Domination is better (since it can combo with Metalworker). Maybe a deck that reduces activated cost and abuse those kind of ability?

Umbilicus is nice. I used it during the Urza's days. Which match-up would you use it now, though?

[gambler]

Coretapper and energy chamber engines are slow.

Skyship Weather light ties up your mana. Bottled Cloister doesnt, Staff of Nin or even Staff of Domination is better (since it can combo with Metalworker). Maybe a deck that reduces activated cost and abuse those kind of ability?

Umbilicus is nice. I used it during the Urza's days. Which match-up would you use it now, though?


it has been years since i played last so.
I was thinking to main deck umbilicus it lets you get back a traitor to drop a new land recycles monoliths for a new round if running locus can get life and the tangle wire combo also works well with sundering titan.

skyship for me is interesting vs controll thins the deck to tighten for more threats and also a potential must counter if you have a worker up(more of a win more i guess)

coretapper is good for disruption against enemy vials and for chalices. can pump a chalice up 1-3 by it's self and has a silly permanent lotus with the everlasting chalice.energy chamber is probably to slow.
Though like i said haven't played in years is the game vintage speed now for legacy?

Thanks for your time

[medleymr]

Are you the guy refer below?

That wasn't me. That guy finished 10th. I was next in line for camera on round 7, but they didn't cut over to my match.

[Alex Holland]

Not that I am suggesting it or anything, just saying that some people did do that and got good results. Personally for me, Lodestone is an auto include, and mostly a 4 of.

I dont. Dies from bolt. I choose more i win cards instead, 3 hellkite 3 ratchetbomb 1 allisdust main.

[Alex Holland]

The spanishguy list i dont get some of his choices.
I Like the precursor golem.. that seems ok with kuldotha, why he doesnt run 4 of them then? (And no colossus win..)

Why would someone choose platinum angel over emperion? Just curious what arguments.

Precursor seems fun with welder. Can get u some mean golems. Add metamorph, lodestone.. the artifact 2/2 lord. There u have it: tribal golems :laugh: I will build that for fun!

EDIT: 'Attack of the Golems'

3 Karn, Silver Golem
4 Precursor Golem
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Darksteel Sentinel Golem (6/6 indestructible with karn)
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Adaptive Automaton (to get above 3 toughness!)
2 Scarecrone

3 Eldrazi Monument (win con)
4 Expedition Map
4 Trinisphere

4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Petrified Field

3 All Is Dust

[darkghost]

is the game vintage speed now for legacy?

Thanks for your time

Turn 1-3 Emrakul, Griselbrand with back-up counter-magic. Storm decks and combo with turn 1 wins. Turn 1-3 soft lock to a real lock. Turn 2 Blightsteel Colossus with haste.

Other than some consistency issues, I feel like we're only a foot short to vintage. Though, it always feels good when you build a deck for fun that can win against those types of deck.

@Alex Holland: haha, seems like a fun deck. Yeah, the +1 toughness is relevant for the bolt. And I really don't like how StP can get rid of all your Golems, 1 shot. It just surprised me how the spanishguy ran the Precursor Golems. I guess you have to sac the Precursor before the opponent can play any spells.

[(nameless one)]

The spanishguy list i dont get some of his choices.
I Like the precursor golem.. that seems ok with kuldotha, why he doesnt run 4 of them then? (And no colossus win..)

Why would someone choose platinum angel over emperion? Just curious what arguments.

Precursor seems fun with welder. Can get u some mean golems. Add metamorph, lodestone.. the artifact 2/2 lord. There u have it: tribal golems :laugh: I will build that for fun!

EDIT: 'Attack of the Golems'

3 Karn, Silver Golem
4 Precursor Golem
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Darksteel Sentinel Golem (6/6 indestructible with karn)
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Adaptive Automaton (to get above 3 toughness!)
2 Scarecrone

3 Eldrazi Monument (win con)
4 Expedition Map
4 Trinisphere

4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Petrified Field

3 All Is Dust

You forgot Cavern of Souls on Golem

[Quasim0ff]

I dont. Dies from bolt. I choose more i win cards instead, 3 hellkite 3 ratchetbomb 1 allisdust main.

Have you ever played MUD? Golem is almost the best creature in the entire deck.

[vorlagh]

Hi All,

I've been playing MUD for about a year now, and reading this site for nearly as long. Thank you for all of the advice and ideas! I played in SCG Indy and finished 24th. I was in the top 10 for most of the day and just missed a camera match. (I was next to play, but they decided there wasn't enough time left to cut into our match.) Anyways, here's the list I played. I'm going to the Invitational in Columbus, and would appreciate your feedback. Thanks again!

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1198020


Hi,

Just wonder, why are u playing 2x Colossus over sth. else like Spine/hellkite/Sundering Titan. On the other hand, deck looks good but i would recommend borrow 4 wastelands instead of Furnace to invitation or try Cavern of Souls to protect you constructs.
Cg to great result

[Alex Holland]

Have you ever played MUD? Golem is almost the best creature in the entire deck.

Not really.

1 metalworker
2 kuldotha
3 wurmcoil

He isnt mandatory.

[Souleater734]

Well the topic of best anything is inherently subjective so it's useless to argue which creature is the best since everyone will have different answers. In mud all the creatures serve very different purposes so you can't really argue strictly better or not among the established creature base.

[Souleater734]

Oh I don't think anyone answered this but the considerations for platinum angel is usually combo decks that don't win by dealing damage, like painter or something like lab maniac. It's also good against high tide sinc there bounce spells are pretty much reserved for chalice 3sphere and lodestone

[Aesir]

Oh I don't think anyone answered this but the considerations for platinum angel is usually combo decks that don't win by dealing damage, like painter or something like lab maniac. It's also good against high tide sinc there bounce spells are pretty much reserved for chalice 3sphere and lodestone

This is what I've been saying for awhile. Everyone is shocked that I run Angel over Emperium, but in my meta, Angel is much better. Painter is pretty big around the SCG circuit as well now, and occasionally something like High Tide may pop up.

[Souleater734]

its also fine against storm since it dodges abrupt decay and they cant chain of vapor it through chalice

[Fry]

Oh I don't think anyone answered this but the considerations for platinum angel is usually combo decks that don't win by dealing damage, like painter or something like lab maniac. It's also good against high tide sinc there bounce spells are pretty much reserved for chalice 3sphere and lodestone

I play with one Platinum Emperion in the Main and one Platinum Angel in the board for the non damage win cons.

[Souleater734]

I play with one Platinum Emperion in the Main and one Platinum Angel in the board for the non damage win cons.

Ya in my experience Emperion is better main since it has applications in a lot of match ups while Angel is the better sideboard card.

[medleymr]

I run two Colossus for two reasons. I don't have to ship a perfectly good hand just because I drew one in my opener. And, It gives me an extra turn against mill decks like Painter and High Tide.

I also run Platinum Angel main and Emperion in the side. The Angel is main because it keeps me from losing to infect and mill. It's my safety valve, to only be used in emergencies. :wink:

[Alex Holland]

Lodestone is a good card. But youll probaly play trinisphere first if in hand. Then its kind of a 5/3 vanilla right?

I never ever have seen high tide in aktion, i dont think its a valid argument to include cards for it since its a freak deck lol. Well at least where i come from. How much are tabernacles now again? Grindstone dont has a change its a good mu for mud since chalice on 1 or 2 orrr revoker shuts them down. Blood moon effects dont hurt monolith and metalworker.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I don't think a 4 turn clock is something that should be sneered at, especially when it has the potential to also be a turn one disruption piece. Obviously it's not always turn 1, but again, it's possible.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Souleater734]

Lodestone is a good card. But youll probaly play trinisphere first if in hand. Then its kind of a 5/3 vanilla right?

I never ever have seen high tide in aktion, i dont think its a valid argument to include cards for it since its a freak deck lol. Well at least where i come from. How much are tabernacles now again? Grindstone dont has a change its a good mu for mud since chalice on 1 or 2 orrr revoker shuts them down. Blood moon effects dont hurt monolith and metalworker.

If painter plays a t1 grindstone on the play it bypasses chalice, they run manic vandals, or something of that nature which can deal with chalice. They have bolts for revoker with no chalice involved, if they are the UR version they have counterspells, and they have jaya to deal with both. High tide was just an example I thought of at the time, Angel is good against storm (including stuff like doomsday and high tide) Infect, I like it better against delver with reach or burn since you can gain life with it in play if they can deal with it, it has flying so it doesn't care about TNN, there are only a few situations I prefer Emperion and that is mainly if I want it in the main deck as part of the forgemaster package, though I prefer more narrow options in the main deck for forgemaster and dont run much, if any 1 ofs to tutor for. I think tabernacle is 700 dollars btw.

Also I have won a lot of games where lodestone prevented my opponent from casting a crippling jace, liliana, supreme verdict, flickerwisp, , aven mindcensor, various swords, maelstrom pulse, vindicate, shatterstorm on 1 occasion, GSZ, there is a lot that 3sphere doesn't stop at 3, 4, and even 5 mana that lodestone can postpone, which is usually good enough.

[Souleater734]

I don't think a 4 turn clock is something that should be sneered at, especially when it has the potential to also be a turn one disruption piece. Obviously it's not always turn 1, but again, it's possible.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

A 4 turn clock is one of the best things about lodestone, and the 4 cmc allows it to dodge abrupt decay.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Exactly my point.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Souleater734]

I dont. Dies from bolt. I choose more i win cards instead, 3 hellkite 3 ratchetbomb 1 allisdust main.

Dying to bolt isn't a good arguement considering so much on the format dies to bolt

[nerv2004]

So I drafted consiracy last night (highly recomend it btw people, such fun) and ended up pulling 2x coercive portals so I'm going to test them instead of staff of nin this wednesday. Ill report back with my thoughts.

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=382231

[Alex Holland]

Dying to bolt isn't a good arguement considering so much on the format dies to bolt

A 4 turn clock is a wasted argument since mud is full of faster clocks. You invested in a mountain of lodestones or something? No one says its bad, it just takes up space with can be used better. Imho. You're free to run 4 of them.

The conspiracy artifact.. I dont know. Misread it first time guess it's better then I thought. If you run kuldotha its a sac at least and some draws. Draws are nice for my gnomes!

Please use some semblance of grammar when posting. This isn't a texting conversation -Jander

[Aesir]

Got some test games in against U/G Cloudpost today; very interesting and somewhat grindy games. I'd say the matchup is slightly in our favour imo, as Chalice+our threats can be very good against them.

[darkghost]

Play at a tourney today. I didn't do too well. 5 round swiss and cut to top 8.

My first match up was Sneak and Show, got to game 3, 1 more turn and I would win with 2 Lodestones and a Revoker on Sneak Attack that was in play. Then he top decks an Echoing Truth, and sneaks an Emrakul. Sneak and Show isn't too bad of a match up. Through the Breach can be stopped by taxing, Sneak Attack can be stopped by Phyrexian Revoker, and keep a Duplicant or Spine of Ish Sah in your hand for Show and Tell.

Round 2 was Death and Taxes, easy win with Chalice at 1 and Revoker on Mangara of Corondor. All is Dust, Ratchet Bomb and Powder Keg does the trick post-SB.

Round 3 was Miracles, got to game 3 and tied. Very grindy back and forth with Terminus being quite annoying. Resolving a Sundering Titan (or tutoring it) can turn the tables even after a Terminus, or Sword to Plowshare.

Round 4 was a four-color loam deck. I can't get a Chalice for 2 out the entire match. That's the only way of stopping the Punishing Fire, Small Pox, and Life From the Loam.

1-2-1 and I dropped having no chance for the top 8 cut.

[Zirath]

Hello folks,

After a long hiatus, I played MUD Stompy at the Mythic Games Monthly, getting myself a top 8. I chose it because I felt my play has been subpar lately and it is a deck that has always challenged me. Here was my list:

4 Metalworker
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Batterskull
2 Steel Hellkite

4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
2 Karn Liberated
1 Staff of Nin

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Mishra's Factory

Sideboard:
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 All is Dust
2 Sundering Titan

Overall, the list was great. Here's what I want to change:

- Move Trinisphere back to the sideboard. It sucks in so many match ups and I hate it.
- Staff of Nin is too low impact.
- I want the 24th land. My losses were all based on missing land drops.
- All is Dust and Sundering Titan feel so slow. However, I am certain I want Titan for Wasteland-less match ups like Stoneblade and Zoo.

Here is my list of changes:

Main:
-4 Trinisphere
-1 Staff of Nin
+4 Tangle Wire
+1 Mishra's Factory

Side:
-3 Thorn of Amethyst
-2 All is Dust
+4 Trinisphere
+1 Ratchet Bomb

I am hoping Tangle Wire will provide more reliable disruption. It is way more impactful in the later stages of the game. Only time will tell.

[darkghost]

@Zirath: Tangle Wire is a very good disruption. But I also feel like dropping taxing effects make force of will, Reanimate, Entomb, Thoughtseize, and other cheaper casting cost spells very efficient against us (some of them, once the Tangle Wire effects fade). You pretty much have to resolve threats while Tangle Wire is going.

All is Dust is good against tribal decks and Death and Taxes. When DnT gets out a Phyrexian Revoker naming Ratchet Bomb, it can become a big problem. It would be nice to split it with similar effect like Powder Keg.


@Alex Holland: about those Faerie Macabre, it is effective against Reanimator. My only problem with it is that it feels like it only solves that match-up. They only helped a little bit with Dredge, and didn't help at all with Loam decks. I'd still stick with more Tormod's Crypt as a better solution against more match-ups.

[Ornament]

Being a newer player to MUD, i must ask. Where's the love for Summoning Trap? Sweet tech for 12 Post builds that do not utilize Cavern of Souls.

[Souleater734]

I've never been a big fan of summoning trap for a couple reasons. Mainly this is because when your spells are getting countered they are countering the chalice or trinisphere, the creatures don't usually get countered since decks still have reliable ways to answer creatures in play. I also don't like using a card to deal with getting your spells countered. The card is dead if they don't fight over your creatures and you can always whiff. Also if you have a trinisphere in play you won't reliably have the mana after you cast your creature to pay for the trap. Obviously the ideal situation is casting a metalworker or something and grabbing a blightsteel but the likelihood of that happening is fairly low considering you only have 1 blightsteel. Also usually you can afford to play around daze with the deck so the opponent has to force of will the lock piece most of the time. If the only counterspells they have are spell pierce, which doesn't counter creatures, and daze, assuming you can play around daze your creatures shouldn't be getting countered.

[Zirath]

@Zirath: Tangle Wire is a very good disruption. But I also feel like dropping taxing effects make force of will, Reanimate, Entomb, Thoughtseize, and other cheaper casting cost spells very efficient against us (some of them, once the Tangle Wire effects fade). You pretty much have to resolve threats while Tangle Wire is going.

All is Dust is good against tribal decks and Death and Taxes. When DnT gets out a Phyrexian Revoker naming Ratchet Bomb, it can become a big problem. It would be nice to split it with similar effect like Powder Keg.

I'm fully aware of all the pitfalls of Tangle Wire and I have played MUD for a longtime without maindeck Trinisphere. From my perspective, many decks are very resilient to Trinisphere still, even Delver. Storm is really the only match up where Trinisphere is a death sentence. It's just not good enough in a fair match up. Even Burn can beat 3Ball if we have a good start since we don't guarantee a turn 1 cast like Dragon Stompy. I have seen Trinisphere fail me countless times so I have no problem giving up a few points to the combo decks I already beat without it for cards that are stronger when I can lose.

Reanimator (which is the match up you are focusing on) beats us with their god hand even if we stick a 3Ball on turn 1 anyways, so that's not really a relevant point to me. I have the graveyard hate for a reason.

All is Dust is good in theory, but it requires you to get to 7. Combined with Thalia, Lodestone, Wasteland and Ports flying all over in that match up, I found it pretty underwhelming. In addition, essentially all Tribal decks are pretty favored for us anyways. None of them can beat a Wurmcoil except Elves and they have enough problems with us as is.

I am also not glued to Tangle Wire. I might even make those slots 2 Lightning Greaves and 2 of something else. I was also thinking about how I feel about the 2 Karn. I don't remember casting them ever so I am not sure how impactful they were in my games.

[darkghost]

@Zirath: Yeah, I see what you mean about 3sphere. I dont like it as much either.

I preferred Sphere of Resistance as it also delays later game cards and make decks more dependent on having more mana source. I have yet to try playing without them.

I would also like to try splashing white for Thalia replacing the Spheres. And of course, other white goodies. I'm quite pinned down about buying Karakas, they're quite pricey.

And what about splitting up Ratchet Bombs with Powder Kegs?

[Zirath]

@Zirath: Yeah, I see what you mean about 3sphere. I dont like it as much either.

I preferred Sphere of Resistance as it also delays later game cards and make decks more dependent on having more mana source. I have yet to try playing without them.

I would also like to try splashing white for Thalia replacing the Spheres. And of course, other white goodies. I'm quite pinned down about buying Karakas, they're quite pricey.

And what about splitting up Ratchet Bombs with Powder Kegs?

My only issue with Sphere is that it slows us down too. I'd rather play Thorn so I can impact the combo match ups and rely on other cards for other match ups.

I've tried white versions. It's feels worse. It messes up our early game plays so much and we only really use Stoneforge Mystic and Thalia.

If I had Kegs, I'd probably split. Though it doesn't kill enchantments or walkers. It might not matter.

[darkghost]

@Zirath: I was only thinking of Thalia maindeck, I think Stoneforge is slow. I prefer having 4 Batterskulls and something else than 4 Stoneforge and 1 Batterskull. Then again, I'll always just use Wurmcoils and Steel Hellkites over Batterskull if I would run Thalia. For the sideboard, I am thinking RiP and Helm (not that I am wanting to hate Reanimator, but running them for fun.), and maybe O-ring and StP.

I'm thinking of running Mox Diamonds to still be able to play a turn 1 Thalia. The Karakas would be here as a plus against legendary creatures, though I'd probably run a 1 of something big and legendary.

Also planning to run some Ghost Quarters side or main, and Crucible of Worlds.

Thanks for pointing that out with Powder Keg. I didn't notice that and most likely would have screwed up if I played against enchantress.

I like the Thorn of Amethyst too. Someone in this forum before suggested that Thorn is more of a sideboard card than maindeck.

[zmayo]

I 3-1'd a daily with this list (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/236771). I like where it is right now, but I've also thought that Trinisphere isn't quite pulling its weight in the main deck. Tangle Wire is an interesting thought, though I don't know if I'm willing to spend the tickets on them in the dark.

[Adri]

That wasn't me. That guy finished 10th. I was next in line for camera on round 7, but they didn't cut over to my match.

I saw your list, and even if it is not really my preferred approach, you seem to be quite sucessful with your approach focused on the combo finish, so congrats. First, I think your deck is pretty weak to stifle, but this card is less and less played, and to phyrexian revoker, but maybe you did not face any death and taxes deck. Second, why run 2 lotus petals? Combined with the Great furnaces, it looks like you have copied the mana base of a welder list, and it is weird:eyebrow:.

So here are my suggestions:
- borrow 4 wastelands in place of the Great Furnaces
- run a duplicant maindeck in place of the 2nd Blightsteel colossus
- swap the 2 petals with 2 thran dynamos and/or worn powerstone

[darkghost]

I 3-1'd a daily with this list (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/236771). I like where it is right now, but I've also thought that Trinisphere isn't quite pulling its weight in the main deck. Tangle Wire is an interesting thought, though I don't know if I'm willing to spend the tickets on them in the dark.

Congratz to you zmayo! I like how you are running only 2 Vesuvas. I only run 2 in my list as well.

How was the Witchbane Orbs SB?

[zmayo]

Congratz to you zmayo! I like how you are running only 2 Vesuvas. I only run 2 in my list as well.

How was the Witchbane Orbs SB?

Yeah, Vesuva is the cause of some of the worst feelings I've ever had with the deck, when you get multiples or have to copy single-mana lands. I trimmed to two, and I'm thinking of cutting even those and testing with a couple of Darksteel citadels.

Witchbane orb is a concession to the burn-heavy meta online, and it's OK there (though sometimes too late). I've considered and played around with White Leyline as well since that could also come in against heavy discard that the deck hates, but not being an artifact and being uncastable later made that less than ideal. I opted for the Ruin to hedge against discard instead.

[Sleight]

Hello all! I've been testing my current non-post build for a bit now:


Main:
4 Metalworker
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Lightning Greaves
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Copper Gnomes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Steel Hellkite
3 Blinkmoth Nexus
3 Trinisphere
2 Batterskull
1 Staff of Domination
1 Pithing Needle

Sideboard:
SB: 2 Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 1 Duplicant
SB: 3 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 All Is Dust
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Platinum Emperion
SB: 1 Trinisphere
SB: 2 Ensnaring Bridge


The use of some smaller cc threats(Copper Gnomes and manlands) along with 3 Phyrexian Revokers make for a more stable opening 7 I've noticed. Also it makes Wasteland not quite as good from your opponent in the first few turns. ... I always hated getting my first one or two posts shot out.

The Copper Gnomes do great work to bait counter magic since its text is really scary when you have a hand of 4+ cards early in the game. It generally eats the force that you were worried about when trying to cast something not named by Cavern of Souls. Which is where Bskull does not shine.

The choice for the two Batterskull is because I felt with out the post base it can sometimes be hard to get to the higher cc fatties stranded in your hand. I have really felt they have earned their slots, getting me back with a swing and being able to stay on D is very nice in a lot of spots. Also I got to equip one on to a Blinkmoth Nexus and swing for lethal over a wall of two 5/6 goyfs once. :laugh:

I feel like I need to replace the All is Dust with something in the sideboard. I rarely bring them in and when I do I miss Cloudpost a whole bunch. My worst match is Goblins I'd imagine, I have no clue how I would board against them regardless of those two slots were though. They are just tough.

[darkghost]

My worst match is Goblins I'd imagine, I have no clue how I would board against them regardless of those two slots were though. They are just tough.

Hi Sleigh, even with that many Steel Hellkites, Wurmcoil Engine, Batterskull, and Greaves maindeck, Goblins are still a problem? I think more reliable mana sources would be the solution.

[Bobmans]

It's been nearly a year i've last touched a mtg card and picking up again. MUD always was in my favoured list.
I see that a 12-post manabase is now in favor. How is that working out in terms of speed and/or stability compared to the earlier setup?


this list. I like where it is right now, but I've also thought that Trinisphere isn't quite pulling its weight in the main deck. Tangle Wire is an interesting thought, though I don't know if I'm willing to spend the tickets on them in the dark.

I like the look of the list, plain and simple. How much do you like the 12-post manabase? Isn't Crucible of Worlds not a logical addition as a 1-off?

3spehere has won me games versus combo more than once on occasion. Replacing it with Tangle Wire asks more of a Goblin Welder approach since you can start swapping it for resets or other tricks.
Speaking of which, is Goblin Welder any good nowadays?


...along with 3 Phyrexian Revokers make for a more stable opening 7 I've noticed. Also it makes Wasteland not quite as good from your opponent in the first few turns. ...

How will that work?

My experience with Phyrexian Revoker is that is died to quick for it the make a big difference. I will be swapping it with Pithing Needle which can actually take care of Wasteland

[Aesir]

It's been nearly a year i've last touched a mtg card and picking up again. MUD always was in my favoured list.
I see that a 12-post manabase is now in favor. How is that working out in terms of speed and/or stability compared to the earlier setup?



I like the look of the list, plain and simple. How much do you like the 12-post manabase? Isn't Crucible of Worlds not a logical addition as a 1-off?

3spehere has won me games versus combo more than once on occasion. Replacing it with Tangle Wire asks more of a Goblin Welder approach since you can start swapping it for resets or other tricks.
Speaking of which, is Goblin Welder any good nowadays?



How will that work?

My experience with Phyrexian Revoker is that is died to quick for it the make a big difference. I will be swapping it with Pithing Needle which can actually take care of Wasteland

Welder is a fine card, but the majority of us believe that Chalice is better at the moment.

[Bobmans]

Welder is a fine card, but the majority of us believe that Chalice is better at the moment.


I've never had a problem running Goblin Welder and Chalice of the Void together. Especially with Cavern of Souls.
But with the different Manabase this could be different. I just wonder which is the more stable version.
The time i played the Welder list it was pretty flexible, but could be clunky at times.

[Sleight]

How will that work?

My experience with Phyrexian Revoker is that is died to quick for it the make a big difference. I will be swapping it with Pithing Needle which can actually take care of Wasteland

The Revoker's tend to name early threats from your opponent such as DRS or Stoneforge. They basically gum up the field along side man lands so your opponent either can't attack profitably or can't attack all in. This in turn allows you to get the mana out to cast a hellkite, Bskull, or Wurmcoil and start to stablize.

I had tested using more than 1 Needle in my 75 and found that, if you want to run it, 1 seems to be the right amount so you don't run into Chalice problems. I feel with chalice in the deck Revoker is the better choice, but there are situations where it would be nice to have needle instead.

@darkghost

Maybe I just need more practice in the Goblins match up. I just seemed to die right before I stablize. Lock peices always seem to get played around fairly well, along with Ports causing a nuasance as well.

[darkghost]

@Bobmans: the metagame nowadays pretty much includes grave-hate. Welders become unreliable that way. A lot of creature removals make Metwalworker unreliable as well. 12post is always unstable, it can be quite good or quite bad for us. Though, colorless builds tend to be more stable.

@Sleight: Do you keep the 3sphere vs non-counterspell tempo decks? The sphere are usually the first ones I take out for the Bombs/AiDs.

[Sleight]

Board for goblins looks like -3 sphere +2 all is dust 1-3 rbombs. On paper this match up is probably pretty easy for my list, I just always end up messing up on ratchet bombs, also I debate on the play if I keep trinisphere in or not.

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[Souleater734]

I don't like all is dust against wasteland/rishadan port decks, the reason it is on my sideboard is mainly jace decks and miracles. It's a clean answer to planeswalkers and can't be countered by counter balance. I don't like the idea of trying to cast 7 mana cards against mana denial decks.

[Alex Holland]

Well sleigh ur list kinda looks like mine with the copper gnomes and inkmoth nexusses.

Id never drop trinisphere against goblins, if u can open with it its very good. They wont do anything for 3 turns. Plus lackey & co are very annoying fast cards that like to swarm on you.

I have been thinking about needle over revoker, sometimes they destroy revoker and its gg for them. But revoker has more benefits in other games because it also adds presure and it is a decent chump blocker in the format.

I dont get why people still run staff o domination. Its totally situational random win. Often its a death top deck. My advise is to run actual threads.

Copper gnomes are my pet creatures. Solland, gnomes pass solland pass eot drop colossus. :laugh: uncounterable. I only board them out often g2 if im not playing counters to add more hate against aggro or storm.

I have 3 duplicant in my side and its awesome. Of course against sneak show or reanimate but often also against creature heavy decks as spot removal. 6 mana is very doable.

[Sleight]

I really like staff. I have put it in on show and tell to tap down fatties before. Also anything that can draw me a card late game I like. Apart from being an auto win card if you have a metalworker out +3 artifacts in hand, it does work gumming up board until you can get a better threat out.