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(nameless one)
03-20-2012, 12:41 AM
I. Theory
MUD is a deck archetype that utilizes mana acceleration (through Sol-lands and artifact sources) and artifact based utility/synergies to play other artifact pieces that either lock your opponent out of the game or artifact creatures that outclass most of your opponent’s creatures. The strength of the archetype lies in its ability to have explosive opening turns to establish board position in which your opponent cannot recover or simply lose. Though as powerful as the strategy sounds, like everything else in life, it always comes with a cost (to keep it balanced); you have to have the right pieces at hand to pull off such powerful openings, hence making it inconsistent at times.


II. History
MUD (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/5930_The_Complete_MUD_Primer_Part_1_Development.html) derived from Workshop decks from Type 1 and Type 1.5 right before the split. When the Vintage-Legacy split happened, one of the cards banned in Legacy was its namesake card – Mishra’s Workshop. Though Workshop was banned, many attempted to port the archetype from Type 1 onto Legacy. This eventually led to the Stompy archetypes (Dragon/Sea Stompy) and colored Stax variants (Armageddon Stax). Though they follow some principles of a Workshop-based archetype, they are not quite the same in terms of functionality.

III. Development

1. 5/3
The first iterations of Legacy MUD archetype showed up on the Source under the moniker 5/3 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?3070-Deck-5-3&) (an ode to Juggernaut). It was the closest thing to what its Vintage counterpart had to offer: an artifact-based lockdown deck in tandem with artifact threats. Unfortunately it took quite a while for the archetype to take off. Stompy archetypes were more popular due to the fact that they simply had better tools at the time. Even colored Stax variants (mainly Armageddon Stax) had more tools compared to the conventional MUD list at the time.

2. 2009
When the format split happened in 2004, most of MUD’s important tools were simply banned from the format. This was the main reason why the archetype was inferior in the new format. Without the acceleration it needed, its lock pieces and threats simply cannot keep up with the speed of the format. While substitutes were made (Power Moxen to Mox Diamonds and Lotus Petals/Mishra’s Workshop to Sol-lands), they simply were not enough.

However in 2009, the DCI finally decided to allow one of MUD’s key acceleration component in the format in the form of Metalworker. This was then followed by Grim Monolith shortly. Also at around the same time, with the release of Worldwake, Lodestone Golem was introduced to the format. Traditionally, Juggernaut would have been the choice beater for MUD. Lodestone Golem eventually took that title because not only it was a threat but also lockpiece without having a drawback attached to it. In that year, MUD gained key acceleration and a lockdown piece that can actually attack. The development of the archetype then followed through. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?17863-Deck-MUD)

3. Mirrodin 2.0
The modernized Legacy MUD took form during the advent of Scars of Mirrodin Block. It gained a multitude of tools from acceleration (Mox Opal), to a solid beater (Wurmcoil Engine), to a board control piece (Steel Hellkite). It even gained utility (Kuldotha Forgemaster) and a means to instantly win out of nowhere (Blighsteel Colossus + Lightning Greaves). Later through the introduction of the Mirrodin Block, Michael Bomholt (creator of Iggy Pop – the predecessor to the modern Ritual-Based combo archetype) came second at a StarCityGames Legacy Open in Indianapolis with a modernized MUD list. The list featured tools from Urza block and both Mirrodin blocks.


4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
4 Wasteland

4 Goblin Welder
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Myr Battlesphere
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan

4 Grim Monolith
4 Voltaic Key
3 Mox Diamond
3 Mox Opal
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Sensei’s Divining Top

Sideboard:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Trinisphere
2 Duplicant
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

IV. Structure
There are actually different variations to the MUD archetype but within the archetype, most MUD lists follow a certain structure. The structure usually goes as:

1. Sol-lands – These refer to Ancient Tombs, City of Traitors and to some degree Crystal Vein. In a format that lacks Mishra’s Workshop, they are the next best substitute. They provide acceleration that helps in casting mana-hungry artifacts. They are named after Sol Ring.

2. Utility Lands – In a deck that runs minimal colors, the colorless drawback of most utility lands almost does not exist. Here are the top Utility Lands that are used within the archetype:


-Buried Ruin: in the variations that do not use Goblin Welder, Buried Ruin is a good way to recur destroyed/countered artifacts.

-Cavern of Souls: in a format where blue is played everywhere, permission is very common. Cavern of Souls help resolve threats (especially if you heavily invest on them). While the deck is not tribal, there are a lot of shared creature types within lists (Construct and Golem). It is also a good way to sneak in a Goblin Welder under an active Chalice at one.

-Mishra's Factory: during the early game, it can act as a land and once you get enough lands, Factories can act as a beater. They really shine in more board controlling/Stax builds.

-Wasteland: acts as a means to get rid of your opponent's utility lands or mana denial once you've resolved a board presence.

-Rishadan Port: they act as mana denial once you've resolve board presence (along with Wasteland)

-Ghost Quarter: helps get rid of your opponent utility lands (along with Wasteland). It can also act as a pseudo-fetchland for lists that run color splashes (as it can grab your own basic land if you choose to run them)

-Cloudpost/Glimmerpost/Vesuva: also known as the 12-post package. They are use to produce a lot of mana outside of mana artifacts and as a backup to Sol lands.


3. Artifact Mana Sources – Not only they provide acceleration, they also enable different tools just for being artifacts. They enable Metalworkers, Kuldotha Forgemasters and Goblin Welders to name a few. Here are some common artifact mana sources the archetype utilizes:


-Metalworker: the premier artifact acceleration of the archetype. There was a reason why this card was banned. Though fragile, an unmolested Metalworker could and will win you games.

-Grim Monolith: this is second to Metalworker when it comes to acceleration. When paired with Voltaic Key, it can provide a lot of mana with little invesment.

-Darksteel Citadel: an uncounterable artifact mana source and a non-basic Wasteland-proof land.

-Great Furnace/Seat of the Synod and the rest: another uncounterable artifact mana source that provides the color of your choice, at the cost of a land drop and being a Wasteland target. They're usually used in splashed versions.

-Mox Opal/Mox Diamond/Lotus Petal: artifact mana sources that provide any color. They also provide as acceleration in the early game as they cost :0: as long as certain conditions are met.

-Thran Dynamo: provides not only acceleration but mana stability for mid-late game.

4. Lock Pieces/Protection – They either pave the way for your threats to be established or help prevent the opponent from answering an established threat:


-Lodestone Golem: not a lot of decks in Legacy run artifacts and these Golems can often slow decks as you accelerate into board presence/threats. They can also act as a threat if not answered.

-Chalice of the Void: a Chalice at one is just devastating to a lot of decks as most of their key spells costs one. They also stop the most common creature removal out there: Swords to Plowshares

-Trinisphere: a lot of Legacy decks run on a low mana curve and a lot of spells have alternative costs that do not require mana. Trinisphere exploits this trend while leaving the deck virtually unaffected.

-Tangle Wire: they are usually used as a means to control an established board by forcing the opponent to tap their lands or creatures.

-Goblin Welder: while they don't slow the opponent down, they do recur destroyed/countered key artifacts. It can also act as a pseudo-protection by 'hiding' artifacts onto the graveyard if they were to be exiled/returned back to your hand or library.

-Spellskite: like Welders, they don't slow the opponent down but can provide a nice wall (0/4 body) but their primary job is to protect other artifacts on the field.

-Lightning Greaves: they don't slow the opponent down or help accelerate into your threats but not only they can help protect your robots/utility creatures, the haste it provides can sometime swing the game into your favor if the opponent is unprepared.

-Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon: in a format with greedy land bases, Moon effects are usually devastating while they help negate the drawbacks of the Sol lands. This is a tech learned from Dragon Stompy.

-Smokestack: if used properly (in junction with Tangle Wire) it could lock the opponent's board with ease. They are more geared to full lockdown (Stax) versions and are rarely utilized in this kind of deck.

5. Threats – Any deck needs its threats to win the game, whether it be a horde of creatures, a game winning Planeswalker, combo pieces or a chain of spells. MUD wins by resolving artifact creatures that outclass other conventional creatures (Robots) to plow through the opponent's life points. Here are some of the threats used in MUD:


-Wurmcoil Engine: the premier threat of this deck. Achieving six mana isn't is hard task to achieve in this deck. The 6/6 body is no laughing matter and it's attributes make it hard to kill. But once killed, it replaces itself, making it hard to deal with. The lifelink negates the life loss from Ancient Tomb and from early damage from the opponent and the deathtouch means that it can be on the defensive end even against bigger threats.

-Steel Hellkite: a backup threat behind Wurmcoil. Though not as efficient as Wurmcoil pound per pound, it does come with evasion and once it connects, it can clear the opponent's board.

-Sundering Titan: while harder to cast than Wurmcoil, once it resolves it can set the opponent far behind by destroying the opponent's lands. Removing it is also a dilemma for the opponent as they could be set back even more. It is usually a Forgemaster target.

-Kuldotha Forgemaster: while itself is not threatening; once it becomes active it's ability can be devastating. It's "tinker" ability can get you silver bullet robots that could turn the tides of the game.

-Myr Battlesphere: a great all-around robot in certain lists. It can provide offense as it can deal up to 12 damage if not blocked (or can get through up to 4 damage if it attacks) . It can provide defense if multiple blockers are needed. It can provide Forgemaster fuel if there is an active one that needs to be activated.

-Blightsteel Colossus: this is usually a Forgemaster target as it is next to impossible to hardcast or to reanimate via Welder but if you've managed to catch your opponent's pant's down, it will win you games out of nowhere.

-Platinum Emperion/Platinum Angel: another typical Forgemaster target. If properly protected, these pieces can win games even Blightsteel can't, especially from a losing position.

-Batterskull: while not as great as the threats above, it's very efficient against aggro. Also with the rise of U/W based control, it can be a great answer against Humility. It is also good against Swords to Plowshares.

-Soul of New Phyrexian: it's as big as a Wurmcoil Engine that has the ability to protect itself and the rest of your permanents from destroy effects. It can also do this even if it was in the graveyard. The problem with this card is it still can't dodge Swords to Plowshares and Terminus. With all that said, the card still lacks testing to be proven on whether or not it's playable in MUD.

-Scuttling Doom Engine: this card has less utility than the other threats above but it does deal damage when it gets destroyed. This can create a synergy with Goblin Welder or even Daretti when it needs to be (possibly under Ensnaring Bridge)

V. Add Ons
With the main structure above, it is still helpful to add a couple tools within the deck to help it against a certain meta. Here are some common add ons the deck usually have (on top of having Forgemaster targets):


-Voltaic Key: when paired with artifact mana accelerants, it can help provide a lot of mana. It can also provide utility by having multiple draws (with Sensei’s Divining Top) or have multiple Forgemaster activations.

-Sensei's Divining Top/Scroll Rack: these can provide card filters and help the deck's topdeck inconsistency. It can also help enable Miracle cards that could help this deck such as Reforge the Soul

-Thousand-Year Elixir: provides haste to your utility creatures and also untaps them for a second use at the same turn.

-Staff of Domination: it combos with Metalworker (and 3+ artifacts in your hand). It works by tapping Metalworker for 6 mana (revealing 3 artifacts from your hand), using 3 mana to untap Metalworker (tapping Staff of Domination) and another mana to untap the Staff, netting you two mana in the process. You can generate tons of mana when put on a loop and once you have an ample amount of mana, you can then use Staff of Domination to tap/untap every other creature on the field, gain a lot of life and draw as many cards as you want from your library and try to win from there.

-Crucible of Worlds : can recur your lands that either been destroyed or sacrificed to a trigger. When paired with Wasteland, it can lock certain decks.

-All is Dust: board sweeper that clears any colored problem permanents.

-Duplicant/Spine of Ish Sah: they're usually Forgemaster targets but can still be run in multiples. They act as the deck's spot removal of choice.

-Phyrexian Metamorph: while not helpful if seen in multiples, they can be helpful at certain times as they can act as protection (having mulitples of utility artifact/creatures on the field), 'snapcast' enters-the-battlefield creatures or simply a Legendary creature/artifact creature.

-Thirst for Knowledge/Thoughtcast: additional draw effects that has a minor synergy with the archetype.

-Faithless Looting/Dangerous Wager/Tormenting Voice: like the mentioned cards above but in red splash. While sometimes they're not card advantage (like the cards above), they can provide a discard outlet for Welder (and being in the same color means its less harsh on the mana-base).

-Gamble: additional tutor effect for red splashes. It can essentially tutor everything and it's drawback can be negated via recursion pieces such as Goblin Welder and Crucible of Worlds.

VI. Co-Pilots (aka Planeswalkers)
These cards are simulated players within the game. They could provide utility and sheer power that mono and poly artifacts can't usually provide.


-Karn Liberated: Karn can provide an answer (built in "vindicate", disruption (discard) and win condition (restart the game with a robot with "haste" on the field).

-Daretti, Scrap Savant: Daretti can provide much card selection that the MUD archetype typically lacks. It can also weld back destroyed/discarded artifacts. It's ultimate can also create a lock or combo with pieces such as Contagion Engine. The main issue with Daretti is it requires red to cast and tends to be a build around card like Welder.

-Ugin, the Spirit Dragon: Ugin can provide something the other two above can't: catch up on a losing board. While Karn can get rid of a problematic permanent, it will have a hard time dealing with multiple threats and pieces all at once. While it's ultimate will not win you the game right away, it's first two abilities is relevant enough to help this archetype.

VII. Proven Variations
Since the inception of the modernized Legacy MUD, there has been multiple proven variations that have been placing well in tournaments. These variations are:

1. MUD Stompy - This variation usually relies on Sphere/Chalice effects to slow or completely stop the opponent from establishing a board presence. The Sphere/Chalice effects also acts as a means of protection to whatever threat it could establish on the board. This variation is usually colorless and rarely relies on cheating its threats onto the field. While it can be explosive, it usually follows a midrange gameplan. Here is a sample list of the MUD Stompy variation:

Deck list by Achim London (Fropper (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22722-Tournament-Report-Dutch-Legacy-Championship-Top8-145)) that came 5th at a 145-man Dutch Legacy tournament:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra’s Factory
2 Buried Ruins
1 Dust Bowl

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Steel Hellkite
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Metalworker
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Platinum Emperion

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
4 Thran Dynamo
3 Voltaic Key
2 Karn Liberated
1 All is Dust

Sideboard:
4 Trinisphere
4 Cursed Totem
2 All is Dust
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Sundering Titan
1 Karn Liberated
These versions are typically better against Combo meta, whether the combo are ritual/storm based, Show and Tell based or graveyard based. It also does a fine job against B/G/x midrange and blue-based tempo decks.

2. Welder Build – This variation does not rely as much to Sphere/Chalice effects to slow the opponent and to protect its threats. Instead, Welder versions tries to lay its threats down on the field in multiple and fast ways. It splashes red to gain utility from Goblin Welder as not only it can pseudo-protect artifacts, it can also cheat robots onto the field by recursion. Unlike its Stompy counterpart, Welder versions go on a comboesque gameplan; relying on the early turns to quick steal a win from the opponent. Here is a sample list of a Welder Version:

Deck list by Zac Hicks that came first at a StarCityGames Legacy Open in Memphis:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
4 Wasteland
2 Darksteel Citadel
2 Mountain
1 Buried Ruin
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord

4 Goblin Welder
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Lodestone Golem
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Lotus Petal
2 Mox Opal
2 Voltaic Key
1 Batterskull
1 Mindslaver
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Domination

Sideboard:
4 Trinisphere
4 Cursed Totem
2 All is Dust
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Sundering Titan
1 Karn Liberated

These versions are typically better against an Aggro meta, where it can race your opponent. It also fairs well against control decks because of the utility Goblin Welder provides.

3. 12-Post MUD – This variation takes advantage of the Locus lands to produce a lot of mana to power out heavy hitting robots. It has a similar gameplan as MUD Stompy but doesn't heavy rely on artifact based mana. Unlike the Stompy lists, this variation utilizes card combinations to quickly end games such as Metalworker + Staff of Domination and Kuldotha Forgemaster + Lightning Greaves + Blightsteel Colossus. Here's a sample of 12-Post MUD:

Deck list by Greg Price that top 4 at the first WotC's Eternal Weekend:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Wasteland

4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
3 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Spellskite
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
4 Trinisphere
2 Lightning Greaves
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Domination
1 Staff of Nin

Sideboard:
3 Spine of Ish Sah
2 All Is Dust
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Witchbane Orb
1 Batterskull
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine

These variations are great in a midrange metagame and decks that prey on the midrange. However, its mana base is the least stable as it is the easiest to disrupt.

As of Dragons of Tarkir, this variation seems to be the most popular out of the three and has put better results than the others. This seems to be the agreed standard shell for it at the moment:



--

I think the current maindeck template for Cloudpost MUD looks like this...

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
3-4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2-3 Wurmcoil Engine
1-2 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Platinum Emperion /Platinum Angel

4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
3-4 Trinisphere

1-3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon /Karn Liberated

4-5 "Utility" / "Flex Slots": Lightning Greaves, Spine of Ish Sah, Coercive Portal, Staff of Domination, Staff of Nin, Trading Post, Crucible of Worlds, Batterskull

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3-4 City of Traitors
2-4 Wasteland
2-3 Cavern of Souls
2-3 Vesuva

VIII. To Be Discussed Cards and Proposed Strategies
Throughout the development of the MUD archetype, there has been cards that have been discussed to improve the archetype under certain metagames.


1. To Be Discussed Cards/Needs More Testing – Here are some cards that either needs to be testing or only belong as niche to certain lists:


-Copper Gnome: this used to be discussed in order get around permission which is ubiquitous in the format. Although with the printing of Cavern of Souls, Copper Gnome isn't seem to be needed anymore. However, it can still be used to cheat higher casting cost robots and artifacts onto the field (like an artifact, one sided Show and Tell)

-Karn, Silver Golem: on certain lists that run lower threat count and has a high concentration of lock pieces (Stax-like builds), this iteration of Karn can be used to turn those lock pieces into threats.

-Masticore/Razormane Masticore: such Masticores can be used to both control the field and as a discard outlet to further abuse Goblin Welder. However the downside is that the discard is not optional and can be detrimental in certain situations.

-Painter's Servant+Grindstone combo: a two card combo that can be run to quickly win games out of nowhere. However, with Emrakul in a lot of lists, its hard to win with this combo. It also needs to be built around to be fully effective.

-Scarecrone: another means of recursion for destroyed/countered artifact creatures. It can also be used as a card draw when in multiples.

-Solemn Simulacrum: great means of card advantage in certain lists. Unfortunately, not a lot of lists run basic lands so its 'enter-the-battlefield' trigger cannot be abused in this archetype.

-Su-Chi: this used to be a great beater during the development of the archetype's predecessor 5/3.dec. The 'when-it-dies' trigger is somehow useful in providing mana if needed (especially with Goblin Welder or simply untapping Grim Monoliths)

-Meteorite: it deals 2 damage when it enters the field and can provide colored mana when its needed but it's effect might seem too little for 5 mana.

-Memory Jar: it's a draw seven that also enables Welder. Not to mention it can be brought back by Welder all over again to have you keep drawing seven cards. The issue with the card is its banned in Legacy.

-Staff of Nin: in the right circumstances, this can be the Dark Confidant of the deck. It draws you extra cards (which is great in supporting Metalworkers) and can get rid of X/1 creatures, or just deal damage to players/planeswalkers.

2. Other Proposed Forgemaster Targets


-Contagion Engine: a great means to deal with weenie-based decks, although it deemed to be not needed as MUD can have better options.

-Mindslaver: essentially a Time Walk that can also devastate the opponent depending on what he/she is piloting.

-Naked Singularity: a great means to completely lock certain mono/two-color decks that rely on land with basic land types (A reverse Blood Moon/Sundering Titan effect)

-Nevinyrral's Disk/Scourglass: a tutorable means to clear the board. While Scourglass's aftermath is less devastating to the deck, it is also next to impossible to hardcast.

3. Proposed Strategies


-Stoneforge 8-Ball: 8-Ball strategy is essentially a white (and blue) splash MUD that uses Sphere of Resistance/Trinisphere along with weenie-like artifact creatures (Porcelain Legionnaire/Steel Overseer or utilizing Stoneforge Mystic to cheat equipments onto the field to create an advantageous board position while the opponent is slowed or locked out of the game. Unlike a typical MUD build, it rarely uses the big robots that are typically in the archetype's creature base.

-Deep Blue: Deep Blue strategy relies on the color blue to gain more card advantage. It is somehow similar to the already established Faerie Stompy decks. The strategy usually runs Esperzoa to 'rebuy' cards such as Grim Monolith and Ichor Wellspring. It also sometimes uses Master Transmuter to cheat artifacts onto the field, as well as to create tricks with certain artifacts such as 'untapping' them or protecting them. Some versions also use Master of Etherium as threats. With the higher concentration of blue cards in certain lists, they can afford to run Force of Will for protection.

-Void Stacks: Void Stacks is a proposed strategy that utilizes Nether Void in junction to Chalice of the Void to lock the opponent out of the game. It also uses Cavern of Souls to get creatures through Nether Void. It also uses targeted discard to preemptively deal with problematic cards.

-Godo Stompy: Godo Stompy is a red-splashed MUD stompy deck that utilizes Godo, Bandit Warlord to abuse Batterskull and other utility equipments. Unlike the other “proven “ red splash version, a lot of these lists do not run Goblin Welder.

-Daretti Stax: Daretti Stax is a proposed strategy that revolves around Daretti's and Welder's artifact recursion to abuse antiquated lock pieces such as Tangle Wires and Smokestacks in junction with the current Chalice/Trinisphere lock pieces. The idea is to make the deck more control oriented. It would even run Punishing Fire+Grove of the Burnwillows to deal with threats that has got through the lock (it also has synergy with Daretti's discard) and also a win condition under an active Ensnaring Bridge.

-Green-MUD: Green-MUD is a green splash MUD Stompy variation that uses Sylvan Library to help the consistency of the deck. It also uses Gaea's Cradle and higher creature count to produce a lot of mana on top of artifact mana sources. Some versions also use Summoning Trap as another means to cheat robots onto the field and as means to battle permission.

IX. Sideboard
In a format as diverse as Legacy, it is impossible to gear your maindeck against every deck in the format. Sideboards are needed to help against bad matchups. Here is a list of typical cards used in MUD sideboards:


-Tormod’s Crypt/Relic of Progenitus: general graveyard hate against graveyard-based strategies. Tormod’s Crypt is generally more utilized because it does not get hindered by a Chalice at one (a typical play for Stompy builds) and it does not exile your own graveyard (for Welder builds).

-Grafdigger’s Cage: not only it is a great graveyard hate, it also stops a lot of cheat into play effects. Unfortunately it does not play well with Stompy (Chalice at one) and Welder builds (it disables both Welders and Forgemasters).

-Ratchet Bomb/Powder Keg: these are generally used against decks that utilize token strategies or permanents that have a low mana curve.

-Defense Grid: usually used against permission-based control decks by Stompy builds. Although with the printing of Cavern of Souls, having these on the sideboard isn't much needed.

-Cursed Totem: usually used against utility creature-based decks by Stompy builds.

-Phyrexian Revoker: they are great against decks that use anything from permanent-based utility to combo pieces. Although a lot of Stompy variants actually run them on their maindeck.

-Thorn of Amethyst: another Sphere effect against non-creature based combo and control decks.

-Witchbane Orb: it helps against spells that can/requires to target you.

-Silent Arbiter: creature that can hold back swarm aggro.

X. Additional Information

1. Basic Piloting Skill - In order to correctly pilot the deck, you need to know/master the following:


-Mulligan: Depending on the list, MUD decks usually run little to no hand manipulation. As such, knowing on when to mulligan your hand is key in beating your opponent. Knowing the value of your cards based in certain situation will help you beat your opponent.

-Sequence: A lot of MUD lists can actually be punishing if you sequenced your spells wrong. Like combo decks, you have to learn which pieces to play first and which ones to bait to permission or removal. Knowing on whether a threat or a lock piece should be played first depending on the what you and your opponent has on the board will help you create advantageous board position.

2. Tournament Reports and Articles:

1st at Mythic Games by Zirath (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24049-1st-with-MUD-Mythic-Games-Elmira-NY)

16th at SCG Nashville by Andrew Wright (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27556-16th-at-SCG-Nashville-with-Metalworker-Utter-Domination)

Metalworker by Drew Levin (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27941_Metalworker.html)


SPECIAL THANKS TO ZIRATH, BRUIZAR AND BOBSMAN FOR CONTRIBUTING

(nameless one)
03-20-2012, 12:41 AM
XI. Other References:


Hello, I was curious if you could post either my list, or at least an updated 12-post list to the primer at the start of the MUD thread? I have gotten the following tournament results with it:

29th out of 266 at an SCG Open
13th out of 138 at an SCG premier IQ
6th out of 42 at a local game store event
1st out of 57 at GP Phoenix side event
2nd out of 46 at GP Phoenix side event
4th out of 67 at a local game store event
2nd out of 26 at an LGS event
4th out of 47 at an LGS event

These are all pretty much with the same list (below)

4 wasteland
4 cloudpost
4 glimmerpost
4 vesuva
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb

4 metalworker
4 kuldotha forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
3 wurmcoil engine
1 sundering titan
1 platinum angel
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 grim monolith
2 Lightning greaves
1 spine of ish sah
2 staff of domination


Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle
2 Batterskull
1 Ratchet bomb
1 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon
1 Sundering Titan
2 Karn Liberated
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Tormod's Crypt

(nameless one)
03-20-2012, 12:42 AM
These are my outdated lists (For reference only)



4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
2x Ghost Quarter
2x Great Furnace
2x Mountain

4x Goblin Welder
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Metalworker
3x Kuldotha Forgemaster
3x Wurmcoil Engine
2x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Sundering Titan

4x Grim Monolith
4x Lotus Petal
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Lightning Greaves
2x Mox Opal
1x Spine of Ish Sah

3x Faithless Looting

3x "slots"

Mana Base:

Ancient Tomb + City of Traitors = They're needed to easily cast all the expensive robots the deck utilizes as early as possible.

Wasteland = Utility land that gets rid of your opponent's utility land. It also helps mana screw your opponent. The colorless mana shouldn't be an issue with this deck.

Mountain + Great Furnace = The deck somehow needs red mana to support both Goblin Welder and Faithless Looting. I used to run a 1-3 split but I wanted my red mana source to be as much Null Rod proof as possible without compromising the utility of having artifact lands. Also getting Sundering Titan on the field with the miser Mountain already on the field sucks when you need to flashback Faithless Looting in the near future.

Ghost Quarter = As I have explained from my previous post, not only it supports Wasteland in getting rid of your opponent's utility land (from Maze of Ith to Tower of Magistrate to name a few problem ones), it can also act as a pseudo-Fetchland to get that Mountain (which also has that nice synergy with Sensei's Divining Top if you really need to shuffle your library)

Mox Opal + Lotus Petal = Another means of red mana source. Also, Lotus Petal can help enable some powerful turn one plays (such as a turn one Lodestone Golem or having shenanigans with Goblin Welder + Faithless Looting right away). Lotus Petal used to be Mox Diamond but throughout my testing, Mox Diamond wasn't really helping the deck when it comes to powerful early turn plays as you need lands along with it. In a deck that runs minimal lands, it is rare to get Mox Diamond going as you want it to. It actually becomes a Mox Opal with a drawback (in this deck, Mox Opal's drawback in rarely an issue). Also, with an active Goblin Welder on the field, you can play tricks with your artifacts because of Lotus Petal being in the graveyard. Goblin Welder essentially gains "tap, sacrifice an artifact: add any color of mana to your mana pool" whereas you'd need to discard a land if you want to Weld in a Mox Diamond back onto the field.

Grim Monolith = Mana artifact that helps you cast mana entensive robots with ease. I used to run Grim Monolith with Voltaic Key but throughout my testing, Key has been dead for the most part when you don't have Grim Monolith. Instead, Goblin Welder plays the roll of Voltaic Key (in junction with Lotus Petal being in the graveyard).

Metalworker = There's a reason why sometimes, this deck is called Metalworker. An unmolested Metalworker can win you games. There's a reason why this card used to be banned.

Robots:

Lodestone Golem = I notice a lot of you have been cutting this robot to three. I think it is wrong as it can set an opponent a turn behind. This robot can be devastating to your opponents if you can get it on the field on turn one (which is not impossible with this deck)

Kuldotha Forgemaster = I have actually cut this to three because the deck can still function without it's aid. While it helps Forging in a Sundering Titan, I find that for the most part I would only activate it if I really need to (such as turning late game Grim Monoliths and Metalworkers into Wurmcoil Engines). Also, I find that the current list has a better means of card selection.

Wurmcoil Engine = I also have cut this to three but because of space issue. It's actually not an issue of searching for it as I find that my current list has a better means of card selection. You might argue why I run a 4-3 Split between Lodestone Golem and Wurmcoil Engine. The reason why I do this is because its easier to cast a Lodestone Golem if you cannot get a Metalworker or your Welder-tricks going. Also, you'd rarely Forge in Lodestone Golem over Wurmcoil Engine.

Phyrexian Metamorph = I love this robot. It can be a Goblin Welder protection (copying Welder and have multiple Welder effects on the field to perform tricks), a Snapcaster for "comes into play" robots or just Lodestone Golem 5-6. Sometimes, the two life is worth for what utility it can do. Worse case scenario, its a Goyf wall against an opposing Goyf or a Legendary killer

Sundering Titan = While the hardest robot to hardcast, once it enters the field, it can win you games. It is my favourite Forgemaster target so far.

Spine of Ish Sah = While not really a robot, this acts as a targeted removal for problem permanents. Not a bad Forgemaster target.

Lightning Greaves = It protects utility creatures and gives haste to beaters. I used to run three but having multiples of it sucks. A turn one Greaves followed by an unanswered turn two Metalworker can win you games 95% of the time.

Sensei's Diving Top = Card selection and with this list, it actually works since I have multiple shuffle effects (from Ghost Quarter to Forgemaster). Faithless Looting also helps SDT if the top three cards that you have are actually bad, a luxury the deck didn't have before.

Engine:

Goblin Welder + Faithless Looting = With Faithless Looting, Goblin Welder can actually fall under Metalworker's class: a threat when it becomes active. Before Faithless Looting, Goblin Welder can only act as a means to protect your artifact. Now with Faithless Looting, you actually gain the luxury of using Welder as a means to cheat expensive artifacts onto the field. This actually relieves pressure from Metalworker. Faithless Looting also has that synergy with SDT as it "refreshes" the top three cards of your library for SDT. Goblin Welder also helps turning the deck into Null Rod proof (though the card can still get annoying if you can't get Welder going)

Slots:

I am currently running Tangle Wire on this slot. Throughout my testing, Tangle Wire has been acting as a Time Walk and with Welder tricks, you can actually create a softlock with it against your opponent. I am not going to say that this should be Tangle Wire as it is still a meta-choice. Sometimes, Trinisphere can be better on this slot if there's a lot of combo or tempo in your meta. If you want to get fancy, you can run more Forgemaster targets (though you'd need a fourth Forgemaster). You can even use utility in that spot using Staff of Domination or Crucible of Worlds. If you're really afraid of your pieces, you can use Spellskite on that spot. Personally, I am happy with Tangle Wire on that slot and it does what I want it to do.

Sideboard:

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst/Trinisphere
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ratchet Bomb

Chalice of the Void and Thorn of Amethyst/Trinisphere = The standard against most combo decks. Usually I would side in the Welder package (Welder+Faithless Looting and sometimes SDT) for this package (along with another appropriate hate card from the side board). I find that against Ritual/Storm-based combo decks, the Welder package doesn't really help and the most ideal way to play the deck would be use your early turns for Sphere effects then hardcasting your robot beaters once you've established that lock (going Stompy mode)

Tormod's Crypt = Of all the gravehate, I find this to be the most suiting without actually hindering the deck's game plan.

Phyrexian Revoker = This comes in against ritual based combo to utility permanents. It can stop anything from Lion's Eye Diamond to Qasali Pridemage.

Ratchet Bomb = Believe it or not, if the deck is on Welder mode, CotV at one can actually get annoying. Ratchet Bomb makes sure that CotV at one doesn't hinder you (I've had this against Aggro-Loam and Stompy decks). Also, Ratchet Bomb is very effective against decks that utilizes tokens and decks that use permanents that have a low mana curve


Change log (Sideboard will be ever changing and will rarely be included):

June 8, 2012: Tangle Wire as the "slot", -2 Ghost Quarter, -1 Spine of Ish Sah, +3 Cavern of Souls, +1 Steel Hellkite (Going to 61 cards on the main)

While I liked the utility Ghost Quarter gives, I can't ignore the fact that a resolved threat that is hard to deal with will win you games, hence why I replaced it with Cavern of Souls. I switch Steel Hellkite as not only it provides an evasion robot for beats, it also nukes your opponent's board.

-----------------------------
The page 68 list (aka the stax hybrid list - the outdated version)



4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Mishra's Factory
3 City of Traitors
3 Vesuva
3 Wasteland

4 Mox Diamond
3 Grim Monolith

4 Lodestone Golem
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
1 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ratchet Bomb
3 Spellskite
2 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Duplicant
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Wurmcoil Engine

bruizar
03-20-2012, 05:10 AM
Good job. You covered nearly all of the MUD cards in your opening post. There are a few more creatures that deal with other creatures. Obviously, most of the creatures in MUD (Wurmcoil especially), already put other creatures to shame. However, of the creatures I'm listing here, I found RMM to be really bad ass.

Masticores
For all Masticores, Goblin Welder, Scarecrone and Crucible of Worlds turn the discard into an advantage.

Masticore - The original gangster. Regenerates and is able to shoot down a lot of small creatures in 1 turn. This means that Masticore can convert the discarded card into more than just 1 creature removal effect. Good if you want to chain gun swarms of chumpers, also just 4 mana. If you still have some artifacts in your hand, you can realy chaingun the board into oblivion with Metalworker. Usually too mana intensive and 4/4 just isn't that big anymore.

Razormane Masticore - 5/5 First Strike is big, especially if you already dealt 3 damage to their Goyf or Knight first. Allows you to kill off Noble Hierarchs, Aven Mindcensors, Delvers and Cliques with no mana investment. You can shoot Stoneforge Mystic and Firststrike the Batterskull or Sword/Jitte-bearing creature. The longer the game drags out, the more it swings in your favor. Essentially turns an excess land, mox opal (or creature if you have welder) into a creature removal spell. I usually play with 2 RMM, 4 Lodestone and 4 Wurmcoil as my default-beat sticks. RMM has been awesome for me.

Molten-Tail Masticore
This thing I haven't actually tested, but MTM can shoot players for 4 too. It has bad synergy with Goblin Welder. I guess you could Forgemaster into a Molten-Tail Masticore, sacrificing artifact creatures after you attack, then use your mana to deal the final points of damage with Masticore to speed up the clock with 1 turn. It's a conditional Masticore, but its the only one that can actually hit players.

Grim Poppet
This card could be useful against tribal and other creature based decks, that require you to deal with swarms. There are so many x/1's in the game right now. This card gives you a body against creature decks the same way the old Vintage counterpart Triskelion did. The difference ofcourse, is that Grim Poppet becomes a 4/4 beatstick clearing the world from all the nasty x/1 utility creatures. Masticore probably does everything this does better, but that requires both mana and discards. The big question is, do you really need an answer to x/1's? Would be a sideboard card at most, and there are alternatives.

Dead Vintage Relics
Triskelavus
Relic from Vintage, outclassed by bigger cards such as Myr Battlesphere and Blightsteel Colossus. However, this card still provides a way to deal with creatures while also fueling Kuldotha Forgemaster and Goblin Welder. Mana intensive.

Triskelion
Relic from Vintage. I think that Grim Poppet is more relevant due to the aggro plan of the deck and the fact that legacy is an aggro oriented format. You'd rather have a 4/4 than a 1/1 left after shooting. Against combo decks, Trike is a lot better, but I don't think Trike should be your plan against combo anyway.

For completeness sake: Though not as successful as the builds above, there have also been black builds running The Abyss / Nether Void and RG builds with Sylvan Library / Ancient Grudge / Crop Rotation, and blue with Master Transmuter / Show and Tell.

Already mentioned
Duplicant
Steel Hellkite

sco0ter
03-20-2012, 05:47 AM
Good primer, but I would have expected more analysis on some cards, instead of just stating the obvious, especially the Add-Ons section (Lightning Greaves, Thousans-Year Elixir, Crucible, ...)
Some optimal numbers, some pros and cons, ...

Also, Master of Etherium should be Master Transmuter.

(nameless one)
03-20-2012, 06:37 AM
Good job. You covered nearly all of the MUD cards in your opening post. There are a few more creatures that deal with other creatures. Obviously, most of the creatures in MUD (Wurmcoil especially), already put other creatures to shame. However, of the creatures I'm listing here, I found RMM to be really bad ass.


I was actually contemplating on posting additional information such as Toolbox targets and where they usually shine against, as well as color splashes. I guess I just or too tired (I had to sleep four hours ago since I have work this morning LOL).


Good primer, but I would have expected more analysis on some cards, instead of just stating the obvious, especially the Add-Ons section (Lightning Greaves, Thousans-Year Elixir, Crucible, ...)
Some optimal numbers, some pros and cons, ...

Also, Master of Etherium should be Master Transmuter.

I just wanted to leave the 'add ons' as to what they're generally used on. I actually wanted their pros and cons to be discussed within the thread.

And Master Transmuter has been fixed.

Thanks for the feedback guys, it'll definitely keep getting updated within the week, including matchups on different strategies (instead of archetypes) to keep it short as well as the pros and cons of Stompy and Welder builds.

PS. How should I define strategies in the format. Graveyard-based, Tempo, Blue-based control, Storm-based Combo, Aggro-Control, Sligh...?

bruizar
03-20-2012, 08:07 AM
PS. How should I define strategies in the format. Graveyard-based, Tempo, Blue-based control, Storm-based Combo, Aggro-Control, Sligh...?

I wouldn't throw them into overarching containers. Just explain for each card how it interacts with the various deck strategy or tactics from the deck to beat/established list. Most decks use the graveyard in some form, but dredge's aggressive use of the graveyard and its complete reliability on it can't be compared to decks with Snapcasters, Tarmogoyfs, Knight of the Reliquaries or Scavenging Ooze. Even dredge and reanimator are very different, due to the fact that reanimator has better tools to protect its graveyard-abuse.

Side-note:
If you're playing with Karn, Silver Golems and Steel Hellkite, I wonder if its worth it to play 1 Mycosynth Lattice, so that you can Kuldotha Forgemaster into it and keep destroying everything your opponent has. Steel Hellkite unfortunately doesn't nuke artifact lands, but it would fit the mass removal strategy well. There's already Sundering Titan which works without Karn, Silver Golem, but Karn ensures your opponent never gets to tap more than 1 mana again, which can be relevant against burn or high tide. Added tech of Mycosynth Lattice is that it locks both players out of the game with Null Rod, so the person with the biggest beat stick or most cards left in deck wins. Since you don't run fetch, your opponent will probably lose in that case.

joemauer
03-20-2012, 10:08 AM
PS. How should I define strategies in the format. Graveyard-based, Tempo, Blue-based control, Storm-based Combo, Aggro-Control, Sligh...?

I would use specific decks.

Storm Combo for instance is too broad(as well graveyard strategy which bruizar explained). I haven't played with MUD much so I may be wrong here, but aren't TES/ANT easier matchups while belcher and High Tide decks tougher matchups?

AllIsDust
03-21-2012, 03:52 AM
Hello guys! I have been playing this deck for a while now, and have been doing well with this list. (few local 6-1, 6-0-1s, Two top 16's at JupiterGames events)

My List:
4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Forgemaster
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan
2 Spellskite

4 Thoughtcast
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Voltaic key
4 Grim Monolith
2 Mox Opal
1 Mox Diamond
1 Staff of Domination
2 Crucible of worlds

4 City of traitors
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Darksteel Citadel

SB:
2 Relic of progenitus
2 Annul
2 Phyrexian metamorph
3 Defense Grid
3 Trinisphere
3 Chalice of the void

(nameless one)
03-24-2012, 08:03 PM
Honestly, I'm having troubles with MUD Stompy vs. Welder-MUD. Should I concentrate on Welder MUD or is it fine with you guys if I do this slowly?

Personally, I think the two decks are different beasts. While MUD Stompy is more of aggro-control, Welder has a more comboesque feel to it.

Mr. Ages
03-24-2012, 10:43 PM
I'd say Welder-MUD, since it just made Top 16 at the invitational.

Nice work on the thread. Happy to see some momentum building for the deck.

Hix360
03-26-2012, 12:24 AM
It's an awesome feeling seeing my exact list (-1 Hall of the Bandit Lord +1 Darksteel Citadel) coming in 11th. I'm a proud man.

But ya, people keep asking me how to deal with Stony Silence and Null Rod. Well, I have found A solution. It might not be THE solution, but it's a good start:

Culling Scales

kwelts
03-26-2012, 12:28 AM
here is my latest 75. works pretty well so far:

Maindeck


4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Steel Hellkite
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Scarecrone

3 Mox Diamond
2 Mox Opal
1 Staff of Domination
2 Voltaic Key
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
3 Darksteel Citadel
4 City of Traitors
2 Buried Ruin


Sideboard


1 Batterskull
2 Karn Liberated
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Powder Keg
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Trinisphere

(nameless one)
03-26-2012, 01:29 AM
I'd say Welder-MUD, since it just made Top 16 at the invitational.

Nice work on the thread. Happy to see some momentum building for the deck.

Thanks. I'll focus on Welder-MUD though I'll still add pointers for the Stompy Builds. I think at the end of it all, its all meta-dependent.


It's an awesome feeling seeing my exact list (-1 Hall of the Bandit Lord +1 Darksteel Citadel) coming in 11th. I'm a proud man.

But ya, people keep asking me how to deal with Stony Silence and Null Rod. Well, I have found A solution. It might not be THE solution, but it's a good start:

Culling Scales

I've tinkered with Scales before. It doesn't really help the Stompy Versions as its early pieces (Chalice of the Void and other Sphere effects) will get nuked by Culling Scales first. I think just running ample amounts of land should do the trick. Also, for Stompy Versions, resolving Karn Liberated is a good way to clean up Null Rod effects.

As for Welder Versions, while you do lose the option of explosive mana from Metalworker and the ability to cheat robots with Forgemaster, you still have Welder + Faithless Looting/Gamble as a means to cheat robots into play. Personally, Null Rods are the reason why I run 2 Moutains and 2 Ghost Quarter in my land-base.

I'm contemplating on running Crucible in the main again as having a Wasteland/Ghost Quarter + Crucible lock can be really devastating. Though I am enjoying Tangle Wire as a 'Time Walk' that backs up Lodestone Golems and Wurmcoil Engines.


here is my latest 75. works pretty well so far:

-LIST-





Couple of things,

Why Mox Diamond? I never really like them since the deck runs so little land. Maybe I just have terrible luck with my hands be I find that they rarely help. I find having Dynamos to be helpful in the Stompy builds.

Also, on the sideboard, is there a reason why you picked Powder Keg over Ratchet Bomb? The only reason why I'd run Powder Keg over Ratchet Bomb is if you run Tangle Wire with it. Outside of that, I think Powder Keg is the more superior choice as it can also hit other permanents outside of Artifacts and Creatures.

kwelts
03-26-2012, 06:12 AM
Couple of things,

Why Mox Diamond? I never really like them since the deck runs so little land. Maybe I just have terrible luck with my hands be I find that they rarely help. I find having Dynamos to be helpful in the Stompy builds.

Also, on the sideboard, is there a reason why you picked Powder Keg over Ratchet Bomb? The only reason why I'd run Powder Keg over Ratchet Bomb is if you run Tangle Wire with it. Outside of that, I think Powder Keg is the more superior choice as it can also hit other permanents outside of Artifacts and Creatures.

Regarding my choice of moxen over dynamos. I tried dynamos but ended up liking having earlier metalworkers over anything else. Mox diamond is just another way to t1 metalworker.

for sideboard I chose keg over bomb because im using it for token destruction, and in that respect they do the same thing. bomb is better though so it SHOULD be bomb if enchantress gets really popular again.

(nameless one)
03-26-2012, 07:20 AM
Regarding my choice of moxen over dynamos. I tried dynamos but ended up liking having earlier metalworkers over anything else. Mox diamond is just another way to t1 metalworker.

for sideboard I chose keg over bomb because im using it for token destruction, and in that respect they do the same thing. bomb is better though so it SHOULD be bomb if enchantress gets really popular again.

I did find Moxen to help enable early turn broken plays, even with Welder builds. Though I am running Lotus Petal over Diamonds.

kwelts
03-26-2012, 07:59 AM
I did find Moxen to help enable early turn broken plays, even with Welder builds. Though I am running Lotus Petal over Diamonds.

petals are very valid to use, just i like to have more than one use out of them and overall to me a diamond is better than an extra land because it cant get wastelanded.

(nameless one)
03-26-2012, 10:08 AM
petals are very valid to use, just i like to have more than one use out of them and overall to me a diamond is better than an extra land because it cant get wastelanded.

I guess I just prefer Petals over Diamonds because I can do tricks with Welders.

Mr. Ages
03-27-2012, 11:42 AM
I guess I just prefer Petals over Diamonds because I can do tricks with Welders.

I too found myself moving towards petal with welder in the deck. Diamond is good if you are looking towards the late game, but building with welder, looting, etc really puts the focus of the deck on doing crazy things early, so petal is just what you need.

What's really fun about the archetype is that there are so many tools, you can adjust the deck for the expected metagame.

I haven't made the jump to welder/looting yet. Still working on a MUD Forgemaster list that really leans on Chalice at 1, which I believe is huge right now.

@nameless - Can you talk a bit about the way you play the deck? In other words, in terms of control vs beatdown. Are we always the beatdown? Does this deck have the ability to switch back and forth throughout the match/game?

(nameless one)
03-27-2012, 12:20 PM
I too found myself moving towards petal with welder in the deck. Diamond is good if you are looking towards the late game, but building with welder, looting, etc really puts the focus of the deck on doing crazy things early, so petal is just what you need.

What's really fun about the archetype is that there are so many tools, you can adjust the deck for the expected metagame.

I haven't made the jump to welder/looting yet. Still working on a MUD Forgemaster list that really leans on Chalice at 1, which I believe is huge right now.

@nameless - Can you talk a bit about the way you play the deck? In other words, in terms of control vs beatdown. Are we always the beatdown? Does this deck have the ability to switch back and forth throughout the match/game?


When I pilot my version, outside the combo matchup, I usually go the beatdown. Usually, I try to resolve a threat and try to protect it with Welder/Greaves/Lodestone Golem or mana denial. The reason why I run Tangle Wire is because they open the field go you, especially if you can resolve a turn one Lodestone Golem or a turn 2-3 Wurmcoil Engine.

Though it all depends on your opening hand. If you can't get an aggressive opening hand but have Tangle Wires, I'd usually ride that Tangle Wire until I draw into something relevant (even if I Time Walk myself, as long as it also happens to my opponent). Faithless Looting also help with bad opening hands. Sometimes I use it as a mini-Serum Powder.

carson
03-30-2012, 01:20 PM
Hey, i don't see a thread for the MUD metalworker STAX deck that i took 3rd with at the Star city games fort worth event in early march, so i figured i would post it here. I literally was wrecking people all day long with it, no one had any idea what the hell was going on as they sacked, tapped, and got locked out of casting any spells, all day long. People were literally just scooping on turn 1 and 2 non-stop as the writing on the wall was that clear, that early. Give it a whirl tell me what you think. Here's a link to the list:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=44652

For the record i couldn't find the other two thoughtsiezes for the sideboard so don't ask, and to be honest i barely even boarded all day, doesn't matter what they are doing when they have no permanents or are locked under a trinisphere....

I am thinking of adding 1-2 copies of The Abyss into the main, but if not then most likely in the board.

questions/comments? let me know what you think
p.s. you can go read coverage if you want, but an fyi, i punted game 2 of the semifinals, after winning game one, with a missed attack step early on with 2 metalworkers, he managed to recover and pull out at 2 life.... and then he barely managed to squeak out game 3 as well... i really felt i should have gone to the finals (and won) but it happens i suppose...

gamer4life
03-30-2012, 02:20 PM
I tryed your list,it seemed very draw dependent. I also had problems against B/W control sounds wierd i know but i did. Im not saying your list is bad,i think maybe i just haven't tested it enough. If you could do a small report that would be AWESOME.

carson
03-30-2012, 03:26 PM
two things:

1. Yes is goes into top deck mode after a turn or two so knowing whats a keep and what isn't is very important (there are some "trap" hands) and i know it feels a little clunky and draw dependent, but after playing it long enough i don't feel that's the case

2. yes i will do a little write up on it, give me the weekend and ill post it by sunday hopefully.

oh, and the trickiest part of playing with the deck is simply knowing how to play city of traitors correctly...

i'll post a write up of my opinions, strategies, thoughts, blah blah blah in the next few days, until then let me know what you think.

kingtk3
04-02-2012, 06:03 AM
@ Carson,
I've been toying with a list similar yours:

4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
3 crystal vein
4 rishadan port
4 wasteland
1 dust bowl
1 mishra's factory

4 grim monolith
4 thran dynamo
3 metalworker

4 chalice of the void
3 trinisphere
2 crucible of worlds
2 phyrexian metamorph

4 phyrexian revoker
4 lodestone golem
4 wurmcoil engine
3 steel hellkite
2 karn liberated

The main problem I found was in developing pressure after the initial disruption, and seeing your list I'm thinking of replacing
the revokers with smokestacks: do you think smokestack would fare well without tangle wire?

Mr. Ages
04-05-2012, 01:51 PM
two things:

1. Yes is goes into top deck mode after a turn or two so knowing whats a keep and what isn't is very important (there are some "trap" hands) and i know it feels a little clunky and draw dependent, but after playing it long enough i don't feel that's the case

2. yes i will do a little write up on it, give me the weekend and ill post it by sunday hopefully.

oh, and the trickiest part of playing with the deck is simply knowing how to play city of traitors correctly...

i'll post a write up of my opinions, strategies, thoughts, blah blah blah in the next few days, until then let me know what you think.


Nice work on the deck and the finish. It's always good to see Stax do well. Did you ever miss something like Goblin Welder? In other words, why black not red? Playing stax with an active Welder is like cheating.

How about the 2 Crucible? Was it difficult to support 4 Smokestack with just the two?

Looking forward to your write-up. Thanks in advance!

joemauer
04-05-2012, 02:20 PM
Nice work on the deck and the finish. It's always good to see Stax do well. Did you ever miss something like Goblin Welder? In other words, why black not red? Playing stax with an active Welder is like cheating.


Goblin Welder isn't very happy when he shows up to the party and sees that Chalice of the Void on one was already invited.

bruizar
04-05-2012, 03:25 PM
Goblin Welder isn't very happy when he shows up to the party and sees that Chalice of the Void on one was already invited.

I don't think that's a very good reason not to play Welder.

Mr. Ages
04-06-2012, 07:54 AM
/
Goblin Welder isn't very happy when he shows up to the party and sees that Chalice of the Void on one was already invited.

I admit, my deck loves to give me CMC 1 off the top as soon as I drop the Chalice at 1, but with Smokestack you can still manage your own permanents.

Turn one Chalice at 1 is better than turn one Welder. If my hand gives me early chalice and welder, I'll save welder for later. Especially if I'm playing smokestacks that I can use to remove Chalice once the coast is clear. Like after Trinisphere hits.

I'm most curious about any color in general. Does mono-brown gain enough consistency to avoid any color?

Here's my current build:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
2 Ghost Quarter

4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Forgemaster
3 Lightning Greaves
3 Powder Keg
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Staff of Domination
1 BSC
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Smokestack
3 Mox Diamond
2 Mox Opal

carson
04-06-2012, 11:30 AM
need more time to post a write up, work is killin me. gimme a few more days ill put a real write up out.
real quick though, the welder(great furnace), monobrown(rishadon port), vs. black for board(vault of whispers) has been an area of debate for me for quite some time. currently i just wanted to have sideboard answers to wierd things so the vaults and diamonds allowed for thoughtseizes in board. Ports may have been better because i literally sideboarded in the thoughtseizes like once or twice all day... so who knows, still thinking ... and the welders, well that changes everything.... I also am thinking of The Abyss, and its application in a deck like this as smokestack #5 and possibly #6... another reason i leaned towards black.

Love that this thread was made recently, and i'll be posting here often, time allowing. Look for a write up over the next week on my take of the metalworker stax deck that i took 3rd with, and the upcoming changes. peace and love

Kellyx
04-09-2012, 02:12 AM
Hey.
How would u guyes tune the welder version in a meta filled with maverick decks?
This match is far from easy - wasteland/stp/qasali/ooze

WargzII
04-09-2012, 08:05 AM
Hey, first excuse my bad english.

So, here is my decklist

20 Lands : (thinking about -2 mountain +2 buried ruins)

2 Darksteel Citadel
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
6 Mountain

21 creature

2 Razormane Masticore
3 Steel Hellkite
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Metalworker
4 Goblin Welder

Mana artifacts :

2 Lotus Petal
2 Mox Opal
2 Voltaic Key
3 Grim Monolith

Good stuff :

3 Lightning Greaves
3 Blood Moon
4 Faithless Looting

Sideboard :

SB: 2 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Platinum Emperion
SB: 3 Witchbane Orb
SB: 4 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void


I played stax decks / staxlike for long time but i was just bored by hoping every time for a good draw or good starting hand (when i wasn't missing a kill).

I tryed some Forgemaster decklists but i really disliked the few Stifle times i had.

The only thing i really miss is COTV on MD but i really cant play them if i want to hold on welder + faithless.

For the choices, i play 2 Razormane on MD because of the aggro meta, looks fun for the moment. I tryed first with 2 Emperions, ok he's big but he just do nothing special when u really need something.

For the lands, i was thinking about removing 2 mountains to get 2 Buried ruins or 2 Wasteland. (especially against maze of ith's Mavericks)

Tryed only against some mav.decks and zoo.decks, was fun for me but have to try more.

Mr. Ages
04-09-2012, 09:23 AM
@Maverick - I'm not 100% sure, but Chalice at 1 and Lightning Greaves have been key cards. They don't have Force of Will, so it is often a race of sorts. Depending on how you build the deck, you can either lock them out or combo out before they can win. With Chalice@1 or Greaves in play you've blanked a lot of there interaction.

@all - How would you play this hand? Game one against Combo (TES, Storm or something similar, lets say you didn't get a good read while scouting). You open with this on the play:

City of TraitorsX2
Ancient Tomb
Great Furnace
Wasteland
Chalice of the Void
Crucible of Worlds

Whether this is keepable or not I guess depends on the build of each deck, but what I'm wondering is, if you keep, do you start with Chalice at 1 or 0? With the prospect of waste-lock pretty soon, if you hit the right CMC, this should be a pretty easy win, right?

(nameless one)
04-09-2012, 10:17 AM
@Maverick - I'm not 100% sure, but Chalice at 1 and Lightning Greaves have been key cards. They don't have Force of Will, so it is often a race of sorts. Depending on how you build the deck, you can either lock them out or combo out before they can win. With Chalice@1 or Greaves in play you've blanked a lot of there interaction.

@all - How would you play this hand? Game one against Combo (TES, Storm or something similar, lets say you didn't get a good read while scouting). You open with this on the play:

City of TraitorsX2
Ancient Tomb
Great Furnace
Wasteland
Chalice of the Void
Crucible of Worlds

Whether this is keepable or not I guess depends on the build of each deck, but what I'm wondering is, if you keep, do you start with Chalice at 1 or 0? With the prospect of waste-lock pretty soon, if you hit the right CMC, this should be a pretty easy win, right?

Against Maverick, if you're running the Stompy Version, Cursed Totem also shines. It will only affect Metalworker on our side of the field but the deck should run enough ramp.

As for that hand against combo, I'd keep hoping you'd draw a threat within the next two turns.

I'd drop Chalice at 1 as cantrips will be relevant. They will try to find an answer or combo ASAP.

movingtonewao
04-09-2012, 11:05 AM
Love that this thread was made recently, and i'll be posting here often, time allowing. Look for a write up over the next week on my take of the metalworker stax deck that i took 3rd with, and the upcoming changes. peace and love

I'll be looking out for this. This archetype deserves so much more love than it is getting. It is absurdly good in the current meta with all the fairdecks.

JadeOberg
04-13-2012, 01:41 PM
I have just recently picked this deck up in the last two weeks after deciding on a deck list that I thought was powerful and flexible. The current build I have with the deck has gone 11-1 in matches over my last three tournaments. Wins were posted against RUG Delver, Esper Stone Blade x2, Dredge x2, UW stoneblade, NicFit x2, Maverick, Rock Junk, Pox, and my one loss was to Dredge.

I'll post my list then discuss some choices.

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
6 Mountain

2 Mox Opal
2 Lotus Petal
4 Grim Monolith

2 Voltaic Key
2 Lightning Greaves

4 Goblin Welder
4 Metalworker

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Steel Hellkite
1 Blightsteel
1 Sundering Titan
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Staff of domination
1 batterskull
1 sdt

3 faithless looting

SB

4 Chalice of the void
4 Blood Moon
2 Faerie Mcabre
2 Firespout
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Spine of ish Sah
1 Platinum Emperion

So first off... Faithless Looting is so insane in this deck. It enables so many busted second turn plays. I think three is the right number, because we do get to cast it twice. But if you are not playing this with welder, you are doing it wrong.

Lodestone has to be a four of. I have won a lot of games off of two early lodestones just because they never hit their third or fourth land drop in time.

Blood moon out of the board is just bonkers. I totally could justify running this in the maindeck, but I feel like game one I just want to cheat out a big guy as fast as I can. About half of my matches I end up bringing in blood moon, maybe more than half. That card just steals games.

I haven't played against any storm combo, I can imagine it being the toughest matchup for this deck, however, playing this deck I never feel like I am beat until the game is over. This deck topdecks extremely well. A very high percentage is going to be a bomb that can take over the game even if I am slightly behind. Making sure I keep extra land or useless accelerators in my hand so that when I do find a faithless looting, I have one or two useless cards to bin in the graveyard.

Phyrexian Metamorph is also just insane in this deck. Metamorphing anything in the deck is a solid play. I have even gone first turn Ancient Tomb> Grim Monolith> Metalworker > go Second turn reveal 5 artifacts make 10 mana> cast metal worker and lightning greaves>make 6 mana > mox opal > blightsteel>tap tomb> metamorph blightsteel. I know this is an extreme example, but metamorph does this on turn two or three with wurmcoil and hellkite and golem as often as I draw it. It may be worth going up to two slots.

This deck just feels so powerful right now. Anyone else have any input on card selection or fresh ideas? I just wanted to share my experience with the deck, and I am having an absolute blast playing this beast.

ACME_Myst
04-13-2012, 03:19 PM
Hey guys, whatsup?

So, I'm seriously considering getting back into Legacy after a 4 year break from Magic. Having always loved and often played Stax and it's various derivatives, I feel like it would be a really cool deck to pick up to get back into the game. Truth be told, budget concerns are not the least of my reasons, but having never played with Metalworker and Grim Monolith in this format, I'd like to see how that plays out.
Anyway, not really having a team to seriously playtest with anymore, I'm turning to The Source to get some feedback on the list I'm working on.

My current draft of the maindeck:

// Lands (22)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
2 Darksteel Citadel
4 Mountain

// Engine(s) (11)
4 Metalworker
4 Goblin Welder
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster

// Moar mana (7)
4 Grim Monolith
3 Crucible of Worlds

// Beats (8)
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Steel Hellkite

// Bombs (2)
1 Sundering Titan
1 Mindslaver

// Support/misc (10)
4 Tangle Wire
3 Lightning Greaves
3 Faithless Looting

Some notes on the design philosophy I used:

- 22 lands is about 4-6 more than I've seen in most other lists. My reasoning was that
a) In my (limited) experience, (Worker) MUD has a highly volatile manabase. Which is to say, it's super explosive, but equally fragile. Because I don't want to scoop to opposing Wasteland + counter on Metalworker, a more stable manabase seems really good.
b) I hate forced mulligans because of manascrew. Contrariwise, it appears hard to be flooded in a deck with such high CMC cards.
c) Half of your lands blow themselves up or get eaten by Welder and/or Forgemaster, and finally..

- .. neither Mox Opal nor Lotus Petal seems to really work for me. Opal is not proper acceleration, as it's virtually impossible to be metalcraft on turn 1 or 2, where it seems most useful. Petal is, obviously, but it's neither a persistent manasource nor really a target for Welder and Forgemaster.

- 3 Crucible seems really good, both to stabilize the manabase further and to do nasty trick with Welders and Wastelands.

- I'm running 4 Hellkite and have cut Wurmcoil Engine entirely. The reasoning here is that
a) I'm severely lacking in board control, and this should remedy that somewhat.
b) Because I'm trying to win by turning big dudes sideways, evasion seems really good.
c) More board control synergizes better with my Tangle Wires and LD.
d) Minor point, but it's Firebreath acts like a useful manasink.
e) The above points outweigh both the increased synergy between Wurmcoil and Welder/Forgemaster, and the Wurm's lifelink ability.

- 4 Tangle Wire synergize with the overall LD plan, are insane with an active Welder, and just generally provide Time Walks all around.

- Only 2 bombs/dedicated Forgemaster targets, mostly to keep the amount of dead draws to a minimum. Of the two, Sundering Titan provides LD and a great body, while Mindslaver provides Time Walks at worst, an alternative wincondition at best, and is generally backbreaking against both combo and control.

Some random musings:
- I would love to find room for Chalice, Phyrexian Metamorph, Grim Poppet, Spine of Ish Sah, Batterskull and tbh also Wurmcoils, but the list feels really tight as is.
- I'm very much opposed to running 2-offs of anything in a deck with as little library manipulation as this, which seems to be in contrast to a lot of other builds I'm seeing. I'm wondering if nobody else has a problem with this?
- Blood Moon seems really good in a deck like this, but I feel might be better off in a more Stax-like build.
- Staff of Domination seems really win-more. If you have an active Metalworker and Kuldotha to find the Staff, along with three artifacts in hand, you should be winning anyway. I see no reason to run potentially dead, conditional cards.
- Blightsteel Colossus also seems really win-more, as he's a bitch to hardcast, the poison doesn't work very well with the deck's main route to victory which is damage dealing, and again, active Kuldotha (+ Greaves) should let you win with less conditional cards.
- Myr Battlesphere hasn't been as insane as I thought he was, but again this is from very limited testing.
- Overall, I feel the deck would improve in both consistency and stability by moving away from utility-oriented combo-esque builds, towards a more tempo-oriented aggro-control style version.

So, again, most of this is just theorizing as I've been out of the game for some time and am severely lacking in good playtest partners. Advice would be really welcome, especially with regard to specific matchups that I may have greatly weakened with this build. From what I can see, this is going to at least die horribly to Sneak Attack/Hivemind, but I feel most of the other DtB's aren't [I]as bad, at least.


TL;DR: I'm trying to make this deck slightly less explosive, in return for increased consistency and stability. Thoughts?

mordraid
04-13-2012, 04:39 PM
Hey guys, whatsup?

So, I'm seriously considering getting back into Legacy after a 4 year break from Magic. Having always loved and often played Stax and it's various derivatives, I feel like it would be a really cool deck to pick up to get back into the game. Truth be told, budget concerns are not the least of my reasons, but having never played with Metalworker and Grim Monolith in this format, I'd like to see how that plays out.
Anyway, not really having a team to seriously playtest with anymore, I'm turning to The Source to get some feedback on the list I'm working on.

My current draft of the maindeck:

// Lands (22)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
2 Darksteel Citadel
4 Mountain

// Engine(s) (11)
4 Metalworker
4 Goblin Welder
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster

// Moar mana (7)
4 Grim Monolith
3 Crucible of Worlds

// Beats (8)
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Steel Hellkite

// Bombs (2)
1 Sundering Titan
1 Mindslaver

// Support/misc (10)
4 Tangle Wire
3 Lightning Greaves
3 Faithless Looting

Some notes on the design philosophy I used:

- 22 lands is about 4-6 more than I've seen in most other lists. My reasoning was that
a) In my (limited) experience, (Worker) MUD has a highly volatile manabase. Which is to say, it's super explosive, but equally fragile. Because I don't want to scoop to opposing Wasteland + counter on Metalworker, a more stable manabase seems really good.
b) I hate forced mulligans because of manascrew. Contrariwise, it appears hard to be flooded in a deck with such high CMC cards.
c) Half of your lands blow themselves up or get eaten by Welder and/or Forgemaster, and finally..

- .. neither Mox Opal nor Lotus Petal seems to really work for me. Opal is not proper acceleration, as it's virtually impossible to be metalcraft on turn 1 or 2, where it seems most useful. Petal is, obviously, but it's neither a persistent manasource nor really a target for Welder and Forgemaster.

- 3 Crucible seems really good, both to stabilize the manabase further and to do nasty trick with Welders and Wastelands.

- I'm running 4 Hellkite and have cut Wurmcoil Engine entirely. The reasoning here is that
a) I'm severely lacking in board control, and this should remedy that somewhat.
b) Because I'm trying to win by turning big dudes sideways, evasion seems really good.
c) More board control synergizes better with my Tangle Wires and LD.
d) Minor point, but it's Firebreath acts like a useful manasink.
e) The above points outweigh both the increased synergy between Wurmcoil and Welder/Forgemaster, and the Wurm's lifelink ability.

- 4 Tangle Wire synergize with the overall LD plan, are insane with an active Welder, and just generally provide Time Walks all around.

- Only 2 bombs/dedicated Forgemaster targets, mostly to keep the amount of dead draws to a minimum. Of the two, Sundering Titan provides LD and a great body, while Mindslaver provides Time Walks at worst, an alternative wincondition at best, and is generally backbreaking against both combo and control.

Some random musings:
- I would love to find room for Chalice, Phyrexian Metamorph, Grim Poppet, Spine of Ish Sah, Batterskull and tbh also Wurmcoils, but the list feels really tight as is.
- I'm very much opposed to running 2-offs of anything in a deck with as little library manipulation as this, which seems to be in contrast to a lot of other builds I'm seeing. I'm wondering if nobody else has a problem with this?
- Blood Moon seems really good in a deck like this, but I feel might be better off in a more Stax-like build.
- Staff of Domination seems really win-more. If you have an active Metalworker and Kuldotha to find the Staff, along with three artifacts in hand, you should be winning anyway. I see no reason to run potentially dead, conditional cards.
- Blightsteel Colossus also seems really win-more, as he's a bitch to hardcast, the poison doesn't work very well with the deck's main route to victory which is damage dealing, and again, active Kuldotha (+ Greaves) should let you win with less conditional cards.
- Myr Battlesphere hasn't been as insane as I thought he was, but again this is from very limited testing.
- Overall, I feel the deck would improve in both consistency and stability by moving away from utility-oriented combo-esque builds, towards a more tempo-oriented aggro-control style version.

So, again, most of this is just theorizing as I've been out of the game for some time and am severely lacking in good playtest partners. Advice would be really welcome, especially with regard to specific matchups that I may have greatly weakened with this build. From what I can see, this is going to at least die horribly to Sneak Attack/Hivemind, but I feel most of the other DtB's aren't [I]as bad, at least.


TL;DR: I'm trying to make this deck slightly less explosive, in return for increased consistency and stability. Thoughts?

List looks good. I think that you need wurmcoil engine in there. Maybe a 2/2 split with steel hellkite or even swaping all 4 for wurmcoil. The lifelink if often just what you need to stay in the game long enough to either look the oponent of finifh him. It also allows to use the ancient tombs with less remorses.

ACME_Myst
04-13-2012, 05:35 PM
List looks good. I think that you need wurmcoil engine in there. Maybe a 2/2 split with steel hellkite or even swaping all 4 for wurmcoil. The lifelink if often just what you need to stay in the game long enough to either look the oponent of finifh him. It also allows to use the ancient tombs with less remorses.

Thanks, and yeah I understand the reasoning. It's just that if either is better, I'd probably want to run it as a 4-off, or possibly a 3/1 split. However, Kuldotha into either one doesn't really sound that good, sort of negating the singleton as a utility card. Running 4 Wurmcoil would leave me without any sweepers/removal. Again, 2/2 splits without library manipulation are bound to give you the wrong card when you need one of them, and hardly ever seem optimal.

How about a 3/1 split between Hellkite and Batterskull, respectively? The latter seems like a better stabilizer than Wurmcoil due to it's Vigilance, and is just brutal if you can tag it onto one of your other beatsticks.

Kellyx
04-13-2012, 07:38 PM
Currently playing this=).
4 tomb
4 city of traitors
4 wasteland
4 great furnace
2 mountain
2 mox diamond
2 mox opal

4 metalworker
4 goblin welder
4 lodestone golem
4 kuldotha forgemaster
4 wurmcoil engine
1 sundering titan
1 blightsteel colossus

4 grim monolith
2 lightning graves
2 cruciable of worlds
2 voltaic key
1 spine of ish sah
1 staff of domination

3 faithless looting
-----------------------------
4 chalice of the void
2 pithing needle
2 ratchet bomb
2 spellskite
3 tormod's crypt
1 trinisphere
1 witchbane orb
==============================

Any thoughts?
Myself i dont realy like spine md, im siding it out in like...80% games.Its a nice card and gives u outs to unexpectable threats g1, but i still think its more of a side material.
Im not sure about staff of domination as well.It lets u to do a funny combo, but u gota have metal worker for it+staff(just 1 in deck)+3 artifacts in hand.And often metal worker just gets killed.So, imo, this staff can be replaced with some real threat or utility card(dublicant/metamorph/platinum angel(imperion)/myr battlesphere/blood moon).
About cruciable/wastelands.This deck is too mana hungry.Most time i just dont dare to use wasteland besides using it as a mana source.Im thinking about switching this pack to 2 darksteel citadel+2 utility lands+2 blood moons.And changing 2 mox diamond to 2xlotus petal.

JadeOberg
04-13-2012, 09:36 PM
Currently playing this=).
4 tomb
4 city of traitors
4 wasteland
4 great furnace
2 mountain
2 mox diamond
2 mox opal

4 metalworker
4 goblin welder
4 lodestone golem
4 kuldotha forgemaster
4 wurmcoil engine
1 sundering titan
1 blightsteel colossus

4 grim monolith
2 lightning graves
2 cruciable of worlds
2 voltaic key
1 spine of ish sah
1 staff of domination

3 faithless looting
-----------------------------
4 chalice of the void
2 pithing needle
2 ratchet bomb
2 spellskite
3 tormod's crypt
1 trinisphere
1 witchbane orb
==============================

Any thoughts?
Myself i dont realy like spine md, im siding it out in like...80% games.Its a nice card and gives u outs to unexpectable threats g1, but i still think its more of a side material.
Im not sure about staff of domination as well.It lets u to do a funny combo, but u gota have metal worker for it+staff(just 1 in deck)+3 artifacts in hand.And often metal worker just gets killed.So, imo, this staff can be replaced with some real threat or utility card(dublicant/metamorph/platinum angel(imperion)/myr battlesphere/blood moon).
About cruciable/wastelands.This deck is too mana hungry.Most time i just dont dare to use wasteland besides using it as a mana source.Im thinking about switching this pack to 2 darksteel citadel+2 utility lands+2 blood moons.And changing 2 mox diamond to 2xlotus petal.

I felt the same way about Spine and quickly moved that to the board. Havent brought it in once, thinking I will take it out of the 75
I'm also feeling the same way about staff. The only time I've had it in play was to Weld it into the graveyard. I think another Hellkite or lightning Greaves.

I definitely agree about the wasteland/crucible as well and cannot see the value in running them in this deck. Mox Diamond is not as good as Petal as well if you are dropping the land count.

Seems like we are coming to similar conclusions

Undomian
04-13-2012, 11:21 PM
Not really sure how this compares to the Welder version, since I haven't played that in months, but I enjoy playing my base-blue build if only for the ability to play with Brainstorm and Transmute Artifact. I'm no master with the deck, so the numbers could probably use a bit of tweaking.

Maindeck:
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Transmute Artifact
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Mox Diamond
3 Mox Opal
1 Staff of Domination
2 Voltaic Key
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Island
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Academy Ruins
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Karn Liberated
3 Brainstorm
1 Inkwell Leviathan
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Ponder
SB: 1 Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 1 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 2 All Is Dust
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 Trinisphere

(nameless one)
04-13-2012, 11:44 PM
So first off... Faithless Looting is so insane in this deck. It enables so many busted second turn plays. I think three is the right number, because we do get to cast it twice. But if you are not playing this with welder, you are doing it wrong.

With my testing, I agree that three Faithless Looting is enough. Faithless Looting also helps in finding that Welder in case its not in your opening hand. I suggest that you run more than one Sensei's Divining Top (I currently run two) as Faithless Looting also helps in refreshing SDTs (since the deck runs minimal shuffle effects)


Lodestone has to be a four of. I have won a lot of games off of two early lodestones just because they never hit their third or fourth land drop in time.

Yes, I also agree with this. Its unfortunate that a lot of lists on TC decks have cut these bad boys to 3. While they do die to Lightning Bolt, they can be good enough of a beating especially when you get them going on turn one (which is not that hard to pull off with this deck)[/quote]


Blood moon out of the board is just bonkers. I totally could justify running this in the maindeck, but I feel like game one I just want to cheat out a big guy as fast as I can. About half of my matches I end up bringing in blood moon, maybe more than half. That card just steals games.

I have actually never tried this before. It sounds plausable (especially that this deck's weakest matchup is blue-based Tempo that runs little to no basics). It also helps the deck's mana denial cause overall.


I haven't played against any storm combo, I can imagine it being the toughest matchup for this deck, however, playing this deck I never feel like I am beat until the game is over. This deck topdecks extremely well. A very high percentage is going to be a bomb that can take over the game even if I am slightly behind. Making sure I keep extra land or useless accelerators in my hand so that when I do find a faithless looting, I have one or two useless cards to bin in the graveyard.

Actually, that matchup is a coin flip. Usually whoever starts wins as Storm-based combos can win on turn 1 or 2 (with Duress/Chant back up). If you resolve a Sphere effect early on turn 1 or 2, followed by a threat, you will win that game.

As for this deck topdecking really well, that is still debatable, even with Faithless Looting. Yes Faithless Looting helps but its still at the bottom of the list when it comes to topdecking in Legacy.


Phyrexian Metamorph is also just insane in this deck. Metamorphing anything in the deck is a solid play. I have even gone first turn Ancient Tomb> Grim Monolith> Metalworker > go Second turn reveal 5 artifacts make 10 mana> cast metal worker and lightning greaves>make 6 mana > mox opal > blightsteel>tap tomb> metamorph blightsteel. I know this is an extreme example, but metamorph does this on turn two or three with wurmcoil and hellkite and golem as often as I draw it. It may be worth going up to two slots.

I am currently running two Metamorphs on my list. They are great after turn 2 as they can copy almost anything relevant in the deck. They "snapcast" enters-the-battlefield effects of your artifacts, they can serve as a pseudo-protection to Welders, they kill opposing Legendary creatures/artifacts or they double whatever threat you have.


This deck just feels so powerful right now. Anyone else have any input on card selection or fresh ideas? I just wanted to share my experience with the deck, and I am having an absolute blast playing this beast.

The deck is fun but its actually hard to master.


Hey guys, whatsup?

So, I'm seriously considering getting back into Legacy after a 4 year break from Magic. Having always loved and often played Stax and it's various derivatives, I feel like it would be a really cool deck to pick up to get back into the game. Truth be told, budget concerns are not the least of my reasons, but having never played with Metalworker and Grim Monolith in this format, I'd like to see how that plays out.
Anyway, not really having a team to seriously playtest with anymore, I'm turning to The Source to get some feedback on the list I'm working on.

Good to have you here as well. Any discussions that will propel this deck into a DTB is always welcome.



- 22 lands is about 4-6 more than I've seen in most other lists. My reasoning was that
a) In my (limited) experience, (Worker) MUD has a highly volatile manabase. Which is to say, it's super explosive, but equally fragile. Because I don't want to scoop to opposing Wasteland + counter on Metalworker, a more stable manabase seems really good.

Yes, the deck's mana production falters under an active Null Rod/Stony Silence (because of artifact acceleration) and a well-timed Wasteland but I found in my experience that running 18 lands is the way to go. I find that having too much lands can suck as you don't want to topdeck enough lands when you want to resolve a sphere effect or a threat at the same time, you don't want to lose to a Null Rod.

Having 22 lands sounds ideal but in a deck that runs minimal deck manipulation/draw, its hard to avoid unnecessary lands (especially that this deck doesn't run Fetchlands). Arguably, you can still run 22 lands as long as you pair those basic Mountains with the proper Fetchlands. Though in doing so, you add more damage to yourself in addition of what Ancient Tomb already gives you (not to mention that surprise Price of Progress)


b) I hate forced mulligans because of manascrew. Contrariwise, it appears hard to be flooded in a deck with such high CMC cards.

In contrary, having flooded with no threat also sucks and should be mulliganed. Like what I said, I believe 18 is the right number so far (you also run Crucible)


c) Half of your lands blow themselves up or get eaten by Welder and/or Forgemaster, and finally..

While you can't control City of Traitor's trigger, you can choose whether of not you want to use your artifact lands as Welder/Forgemaster fodders. Sometimes you'd wish you rather had those artifacts instead of lands.

And on your list, Crucible is there to help with City of Traitor's drawback.


- .. neither Mox Opal nor Lotus Petal seems to really work for me. Opal is not proper acceleration, as it's virtually impossible to be metalcraft on turn 1 or 2, where it seems most useful. Petal is, obviously, but it's neither a persistent manasource nor really a target for Welder and Forgemaster.

Opal isn't meant to be an acceleration, rather an additional land drop that doesn't blow up City of Traitors, produces red (and blue if needed) mana and a fodder to Welder/Forgemaster or fuel to Metalworker. Being an acceleration is a bonus for Opal (when paired with artifact lands and/or Lotus Petal in the early turns)

Personally, for me, Petals are there to help with turns 1-2, nothing more. A turn 1 Metalworker that is unanswered will win you games 95% of the time. Having Petals under an active Tangle Wire (which I also run) means that you can tap them without tapping relevant pieces such as a threat or permanents that produce more than one mana. Petals can also act as a Welder enabler as casting it of 0 and switching it with something relevant from the yard is never a bad trade off. A Petal in the yard help protect (or recycle) artifacts on the field with an active Welder. An example would be in the early turn (which for the most part you will have zero artifacts in you graveyard), you can use Welder to 'untap' a used Monolith or 'flicker' a Tangle Wire by playing tricks with that sacrificed Petal.

Worse comes to worst, a Petal in the yard helps Welder gain: "Tap, Sacrifice an artifact: add any color of mana to your mana pool"



- 3 Crucible seems really good, both to stabilize the manabase further and to do nasty trick with Welders and Wastelands.

Personally I don't run them but I think 2 should be enough as they're abilities don't really stack up. Having multiples of them doesn't add up.


- I'm running 4 Hellkite and have cut Wurmcoil Engine entirely. The reasoning here is that
a) I'm severely lacking in board control, and this should remedy that somewhat.
b) Because I'm trying to win by turning big dudes sideways, evasion seems really good.
c) More board control synergizes better with my Tangle Wires and LD.
d) Minor point, but it's Firebreath acts like a useful manasink.

All points seem plausable but I wouldn't disregard Wurmcoil just like that.



e) The above points outweigh both the increased synergy between Wurmcoil and Welder/Forgemaster, and the Wurm's lifelink ability.

Actually, Wurmcoil helps that it turns Welder's/Forgemaster's drawback into an advantage. Also, outside of exile effects, its harder to get rid of Wurmcoil (or its leftovers)

And sometimes, Wurmcoil's lifelink ability is relevant as you don't want to die to your own Ancient Tomb (against aggro, it happens).

Ever thought of a 2/2 or 2/3 split?


- 4 Tangle Wire synergize with the overall LD plan, are insane with an active Welder, and just generally provide Time Walks all around.

Yes. Not going to argue with that. An early threat followed by Tangle Wire will end games with no problem. Though I have cut them down to three to make room for threats.


- Only 2 bombs/dedicated Forgemaster targets, mostly to keep the amount of dead draws to a minimum. Of the two, Sundering Titan provides LD and a great body, while Mindslaver provides Time Walks at worst, an alternative wincondition at best, and is generally backbreaking against both combo and control.

I run two as well (Sundering Titan and Spine of Ish Sah).

I think STitan is there as a universal target. Its just a beating when you get it on the field with an early active Forgemaster.

As for Mindslaver, I never got it going. Maybe the reason is that whenever I get an active Forgemaster going, I always seem to not have that 4 mana needed for it. At least with Spine, I can blow up things right away, especially those that need to be answered.



- I would love to find room for Chalice, Phyrexian Metamorph, Grim Poppet, Spine of Ish Sah, Batterskull and tbh also Wurmcoils, but the list feels really tight as is.

I run Chalice of the Void from the Side (since having Welder and Faithless Looting would be anti-synergistic). They usually go in against Tempo/Control (where Welder will get removed or countered right away) and Storm-based Combo (where they can Storm faster than you get Welder active).

I would cut a Crucible and Tangle Wire for two Phyrexian Metamorph. That card is just underrated.

As for Grim Poppet, Most of your threats outclass a lot of weenies in Legacy. Why?

Spine of Ish Sah is more of a preference. So are Batterskull. But honestly, Batterskulls for Wurmcoils aint so bad. The fact that they have/give vigilance means there will be a greater life swing with that lifelink and that is very relevant against any deck that tries to defeat you by having your life to zero.


- I'm very much opposed to running 2-offs of anything in a deck with as little library manipulation as this, which seems to be in contrast to a lot of other builds I'm seeing. I'm wondering if nobody else has a problem with this?

I have a problem with this. It makes the deck more inconsistent. While its more explosive, it becomes more mulligan dependent.


- [I'm being ninja'd by JadeOberg as I'm typing] Blood Moon seems really good in a deck like this, but I feel might be better off in a more Stax-like build.

Personally, I think Blood Moon needs more testing. I am also gonna throw Chaos Warp in there as well as cards that need to be tested.


- Staff of Domination seems really win-more. If you have an active Metalworker and Kuldotha to find the Staff, along with three artifacts in hand, you should be winning anyway. I see no reason to run potentially dead, conditional cards.

I agree. Also, Staff of Domination (with an active Metalworker) will only win you game if you have both of them active on turns 2-3. After that, your hand will not have enough artifacts to fuel Metalworker


- Blightsteel Colossus also seems really win-more, as he's a bitch to hardcast, the poison doesn't work very well with the deck's main route to victory which is damage dealing, and again, active Kuldotha (+ Greaves) should let you win with less conditional cards.

A lot will argue against that but I am on your side on this one. While Blightsteel Colossus can win you games from nowhere under the right circumstances, outside of Forgemaster or absurb mana, it doesn't have any synergy with the deck (especially when you can't cheat it onto the field with a Welder)


- Myr Battlesphere hasn't been as insane as I thought he was, but again this is from very limited testing.

I used to run it but due to a tight list, I have eventually cut it.



- Overall, I feel the deck would improve in both consistency and stability by moving away from utility-oriented combo-esque builds, towards a more tempo-oriented aggro-control style version.

Needs more testing as the combo-feel to it is the reason why you can pull off win from nowhere and the reason why to play. I could be wrong, hence more testing. But how would you turn this into a tempo-oriented deck? Care to explain what you mean by this?


TL;DR: I'm trying to make this deck slightly less explosive, in return for increased consistency and stability. Thoughts?

Ever tried the Stompy Version? (Maindeck Chalice, no Welder/Faithless Looting). It lacks tricks but it will consistently lock opponents. Also, it compliments the 4 Hellkite build. For the most part, they don't run combos such as Forgemaster-based.






About cruciable/wastelands.This deck is too mana hungry.Most time i just dont dare to use wasteland besides using it as a mana source.Im thinking about switching this pack to 2 darksteel citadel+2 utility lands+2 blood moons.And changing 2 mox diamond to 2xlotus petal.

But for those 2 Utility Lands, I would use Wasteland as they can get rid of relevant lands against us, from Tower of Magistrate to Maze of Ith.

I have extensively tested Mox Diamonds and overall have cut them to Lotus Petal. The additional cost of Diamonds is just to much for a mana-hungry deck that runs under 21 lands.



I definitely agree about the wasteland/crucible as well and cannot see the value in running them in this deck. Mox Diamond is not as good as Petal as well if you are dropping the land count.

Seems like we are coming to similar conclusions

Ditto.



Not really sure how this compares to the Welder version, since I haven't played that in months, but I enjoy playing my base-blue build if only for the ability to play with Brainstorm and Transmute Artifact. I'm no master with the deck, so the numbers could probably use a bit of tweaking.


Maindeck:
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Transmute Artifact
4 Grim Monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Mox Diamond
3 Mox Opal
1 Staff of Domination
2 Voltaic Key
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Island
4 Seat of the Synod
1 Academy Ruins
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Karn Liberated
3 Brainstorm
1 Inkwell Leviathan
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Ponder
SB: 1 Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 1 Phyrexian Metamorph
SB: 2 All Is Dust
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 Trinisphere

Alright, a couple of questions. I know you are running Brainstorm but do you really think your Mox Diamonds can be supported by 15 lands?

And with only 11 blue sources (5 of which are conditional), how can you pull off the double blue requirement of Transmute Artifact?

I'm not saying its not plausable but I would cut Forgemaster if you want to go the Transmute way. Hell with Brainstorm, you might even abuse Temporal Mastery and take advantage of large swings this deck is capable of doing. I would use Master Transmuter as a means to cheat artifacts onto the field, as well as to provide tricks (ever tried flickering Sundering Titan on and off the field?)

Undomian
04-14-2012, 12:03 AM
Alright, a couple of questions. I know you are running Brainstorm but do you really think your Mox Diamonds can be supported by 15 lands?

And with only 11 blue sources (5 of which are conditional), how can you pull off the double blue requirement of Transmute Artifact?

I'm not saying its not plausable but I would cut Forgemaster if you want to go the Transmute way. Hell with Brainstorm, you might even abuse Temporal Mastery and take advantage of large swings this deck is capable of doing. I would use Master Transmuter as a means to cheat artifacts onto the field, as well as to provide tricks (ever tried flickering Sundering Titan on and off the field?)

Its 19 lands; I just now noticed that the formatting Cockatrice used when I copied that put things way out of order. That said, while I do feel that even 19 lands may be too few to support the 2 diamonds, I really think their permanence is necessary, especially since I can put them back with Brainstorm if I need to.

As for Master Transmuter, while I have played around with the idea at least in my mind, I can't seem to justify cutting a threat for it. It seems that even if I did manage to make it work, it would be at least a turn too slow. I'll try it sometime though, never hurts to test.

ACME_Myst
04-14-2012, 06:45 AM
Yes, the deck's mana production falters under an active Null Rod/Stony Silence (because of artifact acceleration) and a well-timed Wasteland but I found in my experience that running 18 lands is the way to go. I find that having too much lands can suck as you don't want to topdeck enough lands when you want to resolve a sphere effect or a threat at the same time, you don't want to lose to a Null Rod.

Are you advocating 18 lands including Wastelands? This seems to weaken the manabase much further, appearing to lead either to colorscrew or lack of artifact lands, depending on how you work it.
I'm not sure if the additional 4 lands would dilute the deck's threat density to problematic levels, especially if they're utility based (so, 18 mana producers + 4 Wastes).



Having 22 lands sounds ideal but in a deck that runs minimal deck manipulation/draw, its hard to avoid unnecessary lands (especially that this deck doesn't run Fetchlands). Arguably, you can still run 22 lands as long as you pair those basic Mountains with the proper Fetchlands. Though in doing so, you add more damage to yourself in addition of what Ancient Tomb already gives you (not to mention that surprise Price of Progress)

I'm not sure how running fetches would validate upping the land count? I've thought about running them, especially since they are nice with Crucible out. However, they would open us up to Stifle on our manabase, which would probably weaken the U-based tempo matchups further. I can also see how the lifeloss would add up even further, and agree this seems like a bad idea. Furthermore, I cannot find any slots in the landbase that would seem justified to cut, as all 8 sol-lands are required, I don't want to decrease the artifact land count, Wastelands appear to provide better utility, and dropping basics would, well, make the (recurrent) fetches seem rather useless.



In contrary, having flooded with no threat also sucks and should be mulliganed. Like what I said, I believe 18 is the right number so far (you also run Crucible)

Yes, this makes sense. But again, I hardly feel the additional 4 lands would dilute the deck that much, whereas I think early-game manascrew should be avoided at all costs.



While you can't control City of Traitor's trigger, you can choose whether of not you want to use your artifact lands as Welder/Forgemaster fodders. Sometimes you'd wish you rather had those artifacts instead of lands.

And on your list, Crucible is there to help with City of Traitor's drawback.

Yes, I guess sometimes I will. I'm trying to improve on the averages however, not so much on the fringe cases. Welding/saccing manaproducing artifacts over artifact lands would have the same impact on your on-board manabase, and either way, you'd be doing that to exchange manadevelopment for threat development.
I'm merely argueing that given this plan, it might be a good idea to increase the chances to be able to redevelop afterwards.



Opal isn't meant to be an acceleration, rather an additional land drop that doesn't blow up City of Traitors, produces red (and blue if needed) mana and a fodder to Welder/Forgemaster or fuel to Metalworker. Being an acceleration is a bonus for Opal (when paired with artifact lands and/or Lotus Petal in the early turns)

This seems to make sense, and is actually a perspective that I hadn't considered. However, my major objective would still be that you need to have already developed your board for it to become active, making it unreliable as a source of (red) mana, especially in the early game.



Personally, for me, Petals are there to help with turns 1-2, nothing more. A turn 1 Metalworker that is unanswered will win you games 95% of the time.

Which would require you to actually have the Petal on turn 1-2. How many are you running? Do you ever find it problematic to exchange mid-game stability for early-game explosiveness, especially in a field with as much permission as this?



Having Petals under an active Tangle Wire (which I also run) means that you can tap them without tapping relevant pieces such as a threat or permanents that produce more than one mana. Petals can also act as a Welder enabler as casting it of 0 and switching it with something relevant from the yard is never a bad trade off. A Petal in the yard help protect (or recycle) artifacts on the field with an active Welder. An example would be in the early turn (which for the most part you will have zero artifacts in you graveyard), you can use Welder to 'untap' a used Monolith or 'flicker' a Tangle Wire by playing tricks with that sacrificed Petal.

Worse comes to worst, a Petal in the yard helps Welder gain: "Tap, Sacrifice an artifact: add any color of mana to your mana pool"

While I agree, I do feel these arguments are minor points at best. Regarding Petal+Welder 'flickering' on Monolith and especially Wire - it's a good play, but requires two turns to pull off, which means that your Welders are now not functioning as protection or Looting enabler. It's useful, but I'm not sure if it's an overwhelmingly strong argument in favor of Petal.

I'm going to pull this up higher into the post, since I'm going to want to refer to this:



- I'm very much opposed to running 2-offs of anything in a deck with as little library manipulation as this, which seems to be in contrast to a lot of other builds I'm seeing. I'm wondering if nobody else has a problem with this?



I have a problem with this. It makes the deck more inconsistent. While its more explosive, it becomes more mulligan dependent.


Moving on..



Personally I don't run them but I think 2 should be enough as they're abilities don't really stack up. Having multiples of them doesn't add up.

I know, but you really want to see one. It comboes with City of Traitors, Wasteland, Welder, Forgemaster, Faithless Looting, and opposing denial. You're correct that multiples are generally useless, barring fringe arguments on it being Welder/Forgemaster/Metalworker/Looting food. Hence, 3 instead of 4. Also, no 2-offs.



All points seem plausable but I wouldn't disregard Wurmcoil just like that.

I'm not ("just" disregarding it). It's just that I feel these points make a convincing argument of playing Hellkite over Wurmcoil.



Actually, Wurmcoil helps that it turns Welder's/Forgemaster's drawback into an advantage. Also, outside of exile effects, its harder to get rid of Wurmcoil (or its leftovers)

And sometimes, Wurmcoil's lifelink ability is relevant as you don't want to die to your own Ancient Tomb (against aggro, it happens).

This is what I'm saying. I feel the arguments in favor of Hellkite still outweigh these points though, although I agree that my build's current lack of Lifelink might be somewhat problematic.



Ever thought of a 2/2 or 2/3 split?

I have. Then I remembered I don't think running 2-offs is all that good, when one is aiming to make the deck more consistent.
Sarcasm aside, I suggested a couple of post up to run a 3/1 split of Hellkite and Batterskull, as I feel the latter provides greater utility than Wurmcoil, while this configuration would keep Hellkite's permission and evasion on one on my major beatsticks. Thoughts?



Yes. Not going to argue with that. An early threat followed by Tangle Wire will end games with no problem. Though I have cut them down to three to make room for threats.

Agreed. I can see going down to three, but I'm not sure how we're lacking in threat density. I feel being able to more consistently lock up the board after dropping a beatstick is definitely worth running the full set.



I run two as well (Sundering Titan and Spine of Ish Sah).

I think STitan is there as a universal target. Its just a beating when you get it on the field with an early active Forgemaster.

Agreed.



As for Mindslaver, I never got it going. Maybe the reason is that whenever I get an active Forgemaster going, I always seem to not have that 4 mana needed for it.

This is the point I'm trying to get across. The default manabase is very explosive, but it just doesn't seem to survive into the mid-game to keep reliably dropping threats. If you don't have 4 mana for Mindslaver, I think you also don't have 4 mana to drop even the cheapest of your other threats.



At least with Spine, I can blow up things right away, especially those that need to be answered.

I know, I've also been testing with it, and it appeared somewhat useful as a catch-all "oh-shit" button. I'm not personally convinced though, but it may be worth running if you lack removal in the form of 3-4 Hellkites.



I run Chalice of the Void from the Side (since having Welder and Faithless Looting would be anti-synergistic). They usually go in against Tempo/Control (where Welder will get removed or countered right away) and Storm-based Combo (where they can Storm faster than you get Welder active).

Yes, I'm very much planning to do that also.



I would cut a Crucible and Tangle Wire for two Phyrexian Metamorph. That card is just underrated.

That would drop me to two Crucible and two Metamorph. I thought we went over this already? I agree that the Metamorph is busted though.



As for Grim Poppet, Most of your threats outclass a lot of weenies in Legacy. Why?

Well, it's not Grim Poppet specifically, but I'd like something that can machinegun utility-critters/hatebears on the other side of the table. I liked the OP's arguments of it in favor of Triskelion.



Spine of Ish Sah is more of a preference. So are Batterskull. But honestly, Batterskulls for Wurmcoils aint so bad. The fact that they have/give vigilance means there will be a greater life swing with that lifelink and that is very relevant against any deck that tries to defeat you by having your life to zero.

See my earlier question about the 3/1 split between Hellkite and Batterskull.



Personally, I think Blood Moon needs more testing. I am also gonna throw Chaos Warp in there as well as cards that need to be tested.

Well, I agree on Blood Moon, but feel that if you're going to be running it in a Stompy-esque build, it would be better in a deck less centered on Metalworker and Welders (i.e., something like the old DragonStompy builds).

Also, Chaos Warp? Really? What am I missing here?



Needs more testing as the combo-feel to it is the reason why you can pull off win from nowhere and the reason why to play. I could be wrong, hence more testing. But how would you turn this into a tempo-oriented deck? Care to explain what you mean by this?

Well, I'm not advocating we drop the ability to randomly pull wins out of nowhere, as the Metalworker/Welder/Forgemaster engines more or less take care of that anyway. It was more or less meant as a one-line summary to the above points, expressed in terms of overall deck strategy.
To put it bluntly - moving away from the utility oriented combo-esque builds by dropping the 5/6-ish Forgemaster targets and stabilizing the manabase to perform better into the midgame and in the face of permission. Move towards a more tempo-oriented aggro-control deck by running 4 Wasteland (along with Crucibles to recur them), running the full 4 Tangle Wires to maximize on Time Walks and tie down the opponent further in the face of Wastes and Spheres-on-bodies, and increasing the amount of permission that is active while beating face by running 3-4 Hellkite.



Ever tried the Stompy Version? (Maindeck Chalice, no Welder/Faithless Looting). It lacks tricks but it will consistently lock opponents. Also, it compliments the 4 Hellkite build. For the most part, they don't run combos such as Forgemaster-based.

Well, I'm familiar with the old DragonStompy builds. It does however sound like you'd be trading speed for more board-control/permission, at which point I'd be wondering why you wouldn't want to go all the way and just run Stax? If full lockdown is your main target, actual winconditions sort of become superfluous, no?

(nameless one)
04-14-2012, 08:08 PM
Are you advocating 18 lands including Wastelands? This seems to weaken the manabase much further, appearing to lead either to colorscrew or lack of artifact lands, depending on how you work it.
I'm not sure if the additional 4 lands would dilute the deck's threat density to problematic levels, especially if they're utility based (so, 18 mana producers + 4 Wastes).

Personally, I have minimized my artifact land count to two. Its debatable but I didn't want my land base to be a dog to Null Rod, when it's already a beating when my opponent gets multiple Wastelands on me.

As for Wasteland, I would actually only use it against lands that needed to be dealt with. If I have already established a threat, then I freely use them, kinda like a Time Walk (like the way I would do with Tangle Wire)



I'm not sure how running fetches would validate upping the land count? I've thought about running them, especially since they are nice with Crucible out. However, they would open us up to Stifle on our manabase, which would probably weaken the U-based tempo matchups further. I can also see how the lifeloss would add up even further, and agree this seems like a bad idea. Furthermore, I cannot find any slots in the landbase that would seem justified to cut, as all 8 sol-lands are required, I don't want to decrease the artifact land count, Wastelands appear to provide better utility, and dropping basics would, well, make the (recurrent) fetches seem rather useless.

If you're comfortable with the current 22 land set up, I am not going to argue. There are Stompy build that do run 22 lands, those the reason why I get away with 18 lands is because outside of Metalworker, I also utilize Faithless Looting + Goblin Welder to cheat artifacts onto the field.



This seems to make sense, and is actually a perspective that I hadn't considered. However, my major objective would still be that you need to have already developed your board for it to become active, making it unreliable as a source of (red) mana, especially in the early game.

I never had a problem reaching Metalcraft with Mox Opal after turn 2


Which would require you to actually have the Petal on turn 1-2. How many are you running? Do you ever find it problematic to exchange mid-game stability for early-game explosiveness, especially in a field with as much permission as this?

I run 4 Petals. I just rely on the early-game explosiveness followed by sphere/lock effects to win the game right away, kinda like a combo deck. The strategy is great against Fair, slower control decks and fast combo decks. I do admit that its a dog to permission and I try to ride it out with Welder everytime.

Like what I mentioned, if you're looking for mid-game stability, you might want to look to the Stompy version of MUD.


I know, but you really want to see one. It comboes with City of Traitors, Wasteland, Welder, Forgemaster, Faithless Looting, and opposing denial. You're correct that multiples are generally useless, barring fringe arguments on it being Welder/Forgemaster/Metalworker/Looting food. Hence, 3 instead of 4. Also, no 2-offs.


I have. Then I remembered I don't think running 2-offs is all that good, when one is aiming to make the deck more consistent.
Sarcasm aside, I suggested a couple of post up to run a 3/1 split of Hellkite and Batterskull, as I feel the latter provides greater utility than Wurmcoil, while this configuration would keep Hellkite's permission and evasion on one on my major beatsticks. Thoughts?


That would drop me to two Crucible and two Metamorph. I thought we went over this already? I agree that the Metamorph is busted though.

These two-offs.

I know its contradictory to what I said earlier but let me explain.

The primary role of both Wurmcoil and Hellkite is being that robot that could lay down the beating by turn 2-3. The utility that comes with it is just cake. Actually, it all depends on how you want your beater. Having them on a 2/2 or a 2/3 split doesn't mean you're gonna rely toolboxing them. Its just a variation of beaters that does the same thing. You're really running a full playset of primary beaters that just happen to have different attachments to them.

As for Crucible, you are right that they can serve as a fodder in multiples. Its just that I rarely rely on them to do what they're supposed to do. Hell, I've actually cut them off my list as they don't help with what I want to do with the deck, which is lay down an early threat by either mana-flooding the board by the early turns and protect that threat (with either Welder, Sphere/Lock Effects or simply with another beater).

As for Metamorph, as good as it is, I hate seeing in my opening hand, hence only two. Metamorph is just a 'protection' for the dumb beater I have on the field. Though have you ever Metamorph another Welder on the field. You can literally go crazy with it with all the interactions you can pull off of it.



Agreed. I can see going down to three, but I'm not sure how we're lacking in threat density. I feel being able to more consistently lock up the board after dropping a beatstick is definitely worth running the full set.

Get that beater beating on your opponent at all cost before your opponent stabilizes. That's why I keep saying the threat density is lacking. Though if you feel that way with Tangle Wire, I won't argue with your set up. After all, if we are going to run the deck in a different principle, then I can't force my playstyle to you.



This is the point I'm trying to get across. The default manabase is very explosive, but it just doesn't seem to survive into the mid-game to keep reliably dropping threats. If you don't have 4 mana for Mindslaver, I think you also don't have 4 mana to drop even the cheapest of your other threats.

I think I am doing Mindslaver wrong actually. I try to make it work in the early game where its supposed to be for the mid/late game. Then again, I am going out of my comfort style. If it works for you, I will not make you stop. After all the point of this thread is to improve the deck based on what meta you have as well as your playstyle.


I know, I've also been testing with it, and it appeared somewhat useful as a catch-all "oh-shit" button. I'm not personally convinced though, but it may be worth running if you lack removal in the form of 3-4 Hellkites.

Actually, the only reason I play it is because of Null Rod and Humilty which stops Hellkite. Though I think it doesn't really help because that also stops Forgemaster :(.

Still, I don't mind that pinpoint removal it provides if needed.



Well, I agree on Blood Moon, but feel that if you're going to be running it in a Stompy-esque build, it would be better in a deck less centered on Metalworker and Welders (i.e., something like the old DragonStompy builds).

Also, Chaos Warp? Really? What am I missing here?[quote]

I was thinking of it as a catch all removal instead of Spine. But then the 'random' clause of it is too much to ignore. It is also the reason why I am still iffy with Gamble

Then again, it does deserve testing. Maybe its the hidden gem this deck needs.

[quote]Well, I'm not advocating we drop the ability to randomly pull wins out of nowhere, as the Metalworker/Welder/Forgemaster engines more or less take care of that anyway. It was more or less meant as a one-line summary to the above points, expressed in terms of overall deck strategy.
To put it bluntly - moving away from the utility oriented combo-esque builds by dropping the 5/6-ish Forgemaster targets and stabilizing the manabase to perform better into the midgame and in the face of permission. Move towards a more tempo-oriented aggro-control deck by running 4 Wasteland (along with Crucibles to recur them), running the full 4 Tangle Wires to maximize on Time Walks and tie down the opponent further in the face of Wastes and Spheres-on-bodies, and increasing the amount of permission that is active while beating face by running 3-4 Hellkite.

I see what your saying. Having that overlapping denial would actually be a good development for the deck. Having a beater on the field is never an issue, its the means of protecting it. If you can protect it by simply stopping your opponent from doing anything, then why not?



Well, I'm familiar with the old DragonStompy builds. It does however sound like you'd be trading speed for more board-control/permission, at which point I'd be wondering why you wouldn't want to go all the way and just run Stax? If full lockdown is your main target, actual winconditions sort of become superfluous, no?

Actually, I mean MUD Stompy builds. Theyre essentially like DragonStompy but instead of running red, it runs more acceleration and has a better creature composition.

I am actually meaning on having more than one Hellkite. I have previously cut Hellkites in favor of Wurmcoils because of Burn and other non-permanent based damage decks. I will reconsider the mentioned setup you had above.

Also, to add to Wasteland, ever considered running Ghost Quarter? I have pulled off Strip Mines off of that card as a lot of decks run 1-3 basics. I remember playing a game against a control deck. He fetched up an Island in fear of Wasteland and when I Ghost Quartered his land, he simply cant didn't have that second basic land.

Ghost Quarter can also act as a pseudo-fetchland if you need that red mana source instead of that Ancient Tomb.

yaoser
04-14-2012, 08:46 PM
@ nameless one

what does your current decklist look like? i'm curious as to what you're cutting to fit in the tangle wires.

edit

oops.. didn't realize you had posted it in the primer.

ACME_Myst
04-15-2012, 06:30 AM
@(nameless one)
I'm rather busy today, will get back sometime tonight with a complete reply to your last post.

Meanwhile..
[SPOILER ALERT]
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130063&d=1334460153
[/SPOILER ALERT]

Do we want this as a 3-off or something? The discard seems useable with Welder, and the effect is insane with an active Metalworker on the table. I'm sure it's going to be even more breakable in dedicated combo decks, but I think we can use it as we can probably reliably support the 5 mana, even though RR might be a bit problematic.

Thoughts?

(nameless one)
04-15-2012, 08:41 AM
@(nameless one)
I'm rather busy today, will get back sometime tonight with a complete reply to your last post.

Meanwhile..
[SPOILER ALERT]
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130063&d=1334460153
[/SPOILER ALERT]

Do we want this as a 3-off or something? The discard seems useable with Welder, and the effect is insane with an active Metalworker on the table. I'm sure it's going to be even more breakable in dedicated combo decks, but I think we can use it as we can probably reliably support the 5 mana, even though RR might be a bit problematic.

Thoughts?

I saw it and here's my response:


They need to pull of a miracle to cast something that costs 5.

On the other hand, all this time I'm wishing Memory Jar was unbanned for MUD, I think this can be a good alternative.

Memory Jar:

Artifact that can be Welded back.
Colorless
Can be saved for later

Miracle Wheel:

'Legal' in Legacy
Also costs 5 and if you're lucky 2 (though double red could be too much)
Will do the same thing I want with Jar.

The double red is the hardest part but pulling off the Miracle shouldn't be that bad. I already run SDT to fix my draws. And the deck often goes to topdeck mode by turn 3. And theoretically, that card is only good after you've almost emptied your hand.

I'm definitely testing it. On my list, I am willing to cut Forgemaster for it (for now).

ACME_Myst
04-15-2012, 09:41 AM
If you're comfortable with the current 22 land set up, I am not going to argue. There are Stompy build that do run 22 lands, those the reason why I get away with 18 lands is because outside of Metalworker, I also utilize Faithless Looting + Goblin Welder to cheat artifacts onto the field.



Like what I mentioned, if you're looking for mid-game stability, you might want to look to the Stompy version of MUD.



Actually, I mean MUD Stompy builds. Theyre essentially like DragonStompy but instead of running red, it runs more acceleration and has a better creature composition.


While I'm not really out to argue for the sake of argueing, I do feel that a careful analysis of the various arguments and lines of reasoning could help improve both the deck and our (my) understanding of it in general. I too feel that Welder, and Looting to a lesser extent, are overall too powerful to warrant going monobrown. I do not, however, feel this in itself invalidates the argument for attempting to build a more stable manabase.
So, I hope you don't mind if I'm going to at least spend one more post on this topic.

Regarding our manabases, I also noticed after my second to last post that your list is up in the OP, so I'm sorry for not looking it up.

This makes is somewhat easier to analyse. We seem to agree on the below base:



4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
2x Great Furnace
2x Mountain

4x Grim Monolith


Whereas we differ on the following:



+2x Ghost Quarter

+4x Lotus Petal
+2x Mox Opal




+2 Great Furnace
+2 Darksteel Citadel
+2 Mountain

+3 Crucible of Worlds


It follows that my list only runs 1 manasource more than yours, counting Crucible of Worlds, which is debatable but let's keep it there for now. My point being that the before mentioned threat dilution doesn't sound like a valid argument for running less lands if you need to compensate through Petals and Opals.



Personally, I have minimized my artifact land count to two. Its debatable but I didn't want my land base to be a dog to Null Rod, when it's already a beating when my opponent gets multiple Wastelands on me.


I have a couple of questions here, the first one being that I wonder if Null Rod is really an issue in the current metagame? Like I mentioned, I've been out for a while, and it saw hardly any play a couple of years ago. While admittedly worthwhile to take into account potential hosers, I'm not sure the deck is as of yet played enough to assume people will board specifically against it.

The second question being that, if you're afraid of Null Rod, how does cutting artifact lands for mana artifacts really help? This seems to be a logical non sequitur.

The third question regards you mentioning multiple Wastelands being a beating. Do you not feel that playing more non-Wastelable lands (i.e. Darksteel Citadel, basics) and Crucibles would help remedy this better, while opening up to Null Rod to a lesser extent?



I never had a problem reaching Metalcraft with Mox Opal after turn 2


Seeing your list, this actually makes more sense. Although I'm not sure if after turn 2 it's still as worthwhile, but it would appear to have something to do with you running 3 SDT, along with 4 Petals. Moar cheap artifacts == Moar metalcraft.



I just rely on the early-game explosiveness followed by sphere/lock effects to win the game right away, kinda like a combo deck. The strategy is great against Fair, slower control decks and fast combo decks. I do admit that its a dog to permission and I try to ride it out with Welder everytime.


My problem with this plan is that, unlike a combo deck, you're still going to be spending the next 3/4-ish turns turning dudes sideways. This seems to leave you open to removal and/or just winning, while you're sitting there on an underdeveloped manabase.

You say yourself that permission is a problem and that you have to rely on Welder to stabilize. This does not seem like a reliable plan, seeing how vulnerable our favorite 1/1 Goblin is to just about everything in the format.



These two-offs.

I know its contradictory to what I said earlier but let me explain.

The primary role of both Wurmcoil and Hellkite is being that robot that could lay down the beating by turn 2-3. The utility that comes with it is just cake. Actually, it all depends on how you want your beater. Having them on a 2/2 or a 2/3 split doesn't mean you're gonna rely toolboxing them. Its just a variation of beaters that does the same thing.


I'm afraid to say that I just cannot agree with this line of reasoning. Specifically, the bolded parts.



You're really running a full playset of primary beaters that *snip* have different attachments to them.


This. Don't underplay that fact, as one of those abilities is bound to be theoretically better than the other. You might argue that which one is better will depend on your metagame, and I would agree with that. That still does not warrant running a 2/2 config in my opinion. If anything, it warrants a careful metagame analysis and then running the full 4 of whichever comes out on top.

Lacking a specific metagame to tweak for, I'd argue we want to pick the one whose abilities synergize better with the deck's overall strategy and other permission. My reasoning then leads me to conclude that Hellkite does this better.



As for Crucible, you are right that they can serve as a fodder in multiples. Its just that I rarely rely on them to do what they're supposed to do. Hell, I've actually cut them off my list as they don't help with what I want to do with the deck, which is lay down an early threat by either mana-flooding the board by the early turns and protect that threat (with either Welder, Sphere/Lock Effects or simply with another beater).


Having now seen your list, this also seems to make sense. Seeing how you've cut a lot of artifact lands for mana artifacts, Crucible is bound to become a lot less useful. I'm still not sure if that is the way to go, but that is another point altogether.



I think I am doing Mindslaver wrong actually. I try to make it work in the early game where its supposed to be for the mid/late game. Then again, I am going out of my comfort style. If it works for you, I will not make you stop. After all the point of this thread is to improve the deck based on what meta you have as well as your playstyle.


Well, yes. Personally, I feel the Slaver is just too powerful not to run, for reasons mentioned earlier. But I agree that it could be playstyle dependent.



Actually, the only reason I play it is because of Null Rod and Humilty which stops Hellkite. Though I think it doesn't really help because that also stops Forgemaster :(.


There is just about nothing in the colors we're playing that I can think of that would beat those two cards. If I'm not mistaken however, Batterskull would actually work under both, and could be Forgemastered up in response to either. The Spine can not, obviously.



Still, I don't mind that pinpoint removal it provides if needed.


I agree, but would you not prefer sweepers?



I was thinking of it as a catch all removal instead of Spine. But then the 'random' clause of it is too much to ignore. It is also the reason why I am still iffy with Gamble

Then again, it does deserve testing. Maybe its the hidden gem this deck needs.


Perhaps. It still seems rather 'eh' to me. Let me know if it turns out to work for you though.



Also, to add to Wasteland, ever considered running Ghost Quarter? I have pulled off Strip Mines off of that card as a lot of decks run 1-3 basics. I remember playing a game against a control deck. He fetched up an Island in fear of Wasteland and when I Ghost Quartered his land, he simply cant didn't have that second basic land.


I have, and used to run it as a 1-off in my old AngelStax of days gone past. However, I think that running Sundering Titan should already take care of this aspect of opposing manabases. If I'm going to be running more utility lands, I'd probably run Buried Ruin, Dust Bowl, Hall of the Bandit Lord or Barbarian Ring before thinking of Ghost Quarter.



Ghost Quarter can also act as a pseudo-fetchland if you need that red mana source instead of that Ancient Tomb.


Well, yes, but.. Eh.

One last note on your list, it looks like you are running 61 cards. Is this correct?


Regarding Reforge the Soul.. The immediate discard is actually an effect that Memory Jar doesn't have, I think this makes it better (although in almost every other respect, the Jar > Reforge).
If you're going to be dropping Forgemaster, do you feel that it would still be worth it to keep it's targets in?
I'm also going to test it for a bit, but have as of yet no idea what I'm going to cut for it.

dillonkbase
04-15-2012, 11:35 AM
does running chrome mox in combination with these miracle spells make sense here?

noobslayer
04-15-2012, 11:44 AM
I've been testing this deck a lot lately with my brother. I opted for mono Brown, no forgemasters, and more maindeck lock components. This is what I'm working so far:

Maindeck (60):

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Crystal Vein
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
4 Darksteel Citadel

4 Grim Monolith
3 Mox Opal
2 Mox Diamond

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere

4 Metalworker

2 Lightning Greaves
1 Batterskull

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Steel Hellkite

2 Karn Silver Golem

1 Staff of Domination

Choices:

Rishadan Port: Basically can help turn my extra lands, which in any drawn out game you are probably going to have, into more psuedo lock pieces.

Chalice/Trinisphere: Kinda bomb to unload turn 1 and pass against the format.

Batterskull: Acting as Wurmcoil #5 with the ability to turn anyone into a win con

Karn: In theory he has been useful really only a handful of time, but running spine of ish shah as a one of removal with no way to tutor it seems far worse off than powering out this guy who at least offers a bit of card advantage every turn and can remove multiple targets on his own.

Staff of Domination: Most underwhelming card in the list so far

I'm not sold on any particular sideboard yet, right now I'm toying with this transformational sideboard:

Sideboard (15):

2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster

Crucible and Land: Help blow out control and other decks with exploitable bases.

Revoker: I love him personally, but I'm not sold on his position here in the board. I had them maindeck for a while there, and kind of liked them. He might not have a big enough impact to the decks strategy when you stand him next to beef like lodestone golem.

Forgemaster + Blightsteel: Just seems kind of fun to bust out against certain decks, and works around obnoxious lifegain strats.

Welcome to any and all feedback.


For reference I did test the blue splash. Academy ruins was champ there, but it was a turn to slow, and still it outshined what most of the draw spells did. FoF was amazing, but just way too costly to power out. Thoughtcast took its spot after that, and proved equally unimpressive. I didn't test thirst or fabricate, and master transmuter seems really cool but slow. At the very worst show and tell could be a sideboard option. Or you could just run a show and tell variant of the deck using that and forgemaster to power out fatties.

(nameless one)
04-15-2012, 02:19 PM
While I'm not really out to argue for the sake of argueing, I do feel that a careful analysis of the various arguments and lines of reasoning could help improve both the deck and our (my) understanding of it in general. I too feel that Welder, and Looting to a lesser extent, are overall too powerful to warrant going monobrown. I do not, however, feel this in itself invalidates the argument for attempting to build a more stable manabase.
So, I hope you don't mind if I'm going to at least spend one more post on this topic.

Its cool. Independent testing is better than lets just follow whatever the next guy said. More options makes the deck better.


It follows that my list only runs 1 manasource more than yours, counting Crucible of Worlds, which is debatable but let's keep it there for now. My point being that the before mentioned threat dilution doesn't sound like a valid argument for running less lands if you need to compensate through Petals and Opals.

I guess I did overlook the numbers. I guess the Crucible configuration is just better for later game where as the Petal configuration is better for pumping that early Welder+Looting or Metalworker.



I have a couple of questions here, the first one being that I wonder if Null Rod is really an issue in the current metagame? Like I mentioned, I've been out for a while, and it saw hardly any play a couple of years ago. While admittedly worthwhile to take into account potential hosers, I'm not sure the deck is as of yet played enough to assume people will board specifically against it.[quote]

At the local store it is as I know two guys that have them on the SB since outside of this deck, it is also effective against AnT (their Moxes), Thopters (shuts down Thopter Foundry and SDT) and some Reanimator hate (one of them runs Reanimator). That's why I have been paranoid of them.

Also if the deck does ever come out of the shadows, it will be easily hated with the mentioned card and to some extent Stony Silence

[quote]The second question being that, if you're afraid of Null Rod, how does cutting artifact lands for mana artifacts really help? This seems to be a logical non sequitur.

If you're referring to the Petals, Petals can come out of turn one, where you can get Welder/Metalworker going (and hoping that you can get Metalworker active on your turn two before Null Rod comes down on their turn 2, given that you're on the play).

Though with 8 Sol-Lands, its not hard to hardcast Wurmcoils (or Hellkites).


The third question regards you mentioning multiple Wastelands being a beating. Do you not feel that playing more non-Wastelable lands (i.e. Darksteel Citadel, basics) and Crucibles would help remedy this better, while opening up to Null Rod to a lesser extent?

Crucible helps (it also turns your Wasteland manabase into a inevitable softlock) but at the cost of slowing the deck. I personally think that having that early board presence is the way to go but like what I said, its better to have that independent testing.

And I want to talk about my configuration later, concerning Miracle Wheel (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130063&d=1334460153).




Seeing your list, this actually makes more sense. Although I'm not sure if after turn 2 it's still as worthwhile, but it would appear to have something to do with you running 3 SDT, along with 4 Petals. Moar cheap artifacts == Moar metalcraft.

Yup


My problem with this plan is that, unlike a combo deck, you're still going to be spending the next 3/4-ish turns turning dudes sideways. This seems to leave you open to removal and/or just winning, while you're sitting there on an underdeveloped manabase.

That's why my playstyle is have that beater and and try to protect it with either Welder, Tangle Wire or Sphere/lock effects.

and to some extent:


I'm afraid to say that I just cannot agree with this line of reasoning. Specifically, the bolded parts.

This is why I run Wurmcoil over Hellkite. While Hellkite is leagues better in controlling the board, it cannot protect itself against removal. On the other hand, Wurmcoil will replace itself on the face of a board sweeper or removal. Worst case scenario, it will get StPed or PtE but at the exchange of 6 life (which can buy you enough Ancient Tomb activations or time or that extra land you need to push for)


You say yourself that permission is a problem and that you have to rely on Welder to stabilize. This does not seem like a reliable plan, seeing how vulnerable our favorite 1/1 Goblin is to just about everything in the format.

I see what you're saying. But if you overwhelm your opponent with Welder and Metalworker, you can hope that they will have a harder decision tree. I try to protect Welder with either Lightning Greaves, Metamorph (making another Welder) or just have a better creature on the field that will force the opponent to deal with the said better creature than Welder (and hope that Welder can negate it).




This. Don't underplay that fact, as one of those abilities is bound to be theoretically better than the other. You might argue that which one is better will depend on your metagame, and I would agree with that. That still does not warrant running a 2/2 config in my opinion. If anything, it warrants a careful metagame analysis and then running the full 4 of whichever comes out on top.[quote]

It all depends on what gameplan you want to do. I think Hellkite is great at the mid-late game while Wurmcoil is on the early-mid. Like what I said above.

[quote]Lacking a specific metagame to tweak for, I'd argue we want to pick the one whose abilities synergize better with the deck's overall strategy and other permission. My reasoning then leads me to conclude that Hellkite does this better.

I believe on your philosophy, it is better since you want to have something going mid-late game.


Having now seen your list, this also seems to make sense. Seeing how you've cut a lot of artifact lands for mana artifacts, Crucible is bound to become a lot less useful. I'm still not sure if that is the way to go, but that is another point altogether.

The deck is not a DtB. We are not trying to protect the deck against a plethora of hate. We are still trying to make sure we can consistently win. I catching the local meta with their pants down is the way to go.

Right now I am striving for a faster deck because:

1) So many fair (but preys on blue decks) deck are being played. I am looking at Maverick, and to some extent Deadguy and other aggro decks.

2) Decks that prey with the decks above such as Storm-based combo and non-interactive decks.

This deck has game against the archetypes mentioned above. While the MUD (Welder Variant) is a dog to blue, here's the chance to take advantage while its not there. Let the mice party while the cat is gone right?


Well, yes. Personally, I feel the Slaver is just too powerful not to run, for reasons mentioned earlier. But I agree that it could be playstyle dependent.

With Reforge the Soul, I might reconsider this. I have been goldfishing with that and I think Slaver can shine here.


There is just about nothing in the colors we're playing that I can think of that would beat those two cards. If I'm not mistaken however, Batterskull would actually work under both, and could be Forgemastered up in response to either. The Spine can not, obviously.

I don't get your point behind Batterskull. Your robots can still attack yes. The only think that affects Batterskull is the ability to "fuse" with other robots, or to be able to return it back to your hand.


Perhaps. It still seems rather 'eh' to me. Let me know if it turns out to work for you though.

Chaos Warp is 'eh' but we grab whatever answer we can provide right? Like what I said, still testing. But after Miracle Wheel, I think that changes it all.



I have, and used to run it as a 1-off in my old AngelStax of days gone past. However, I think that running Sundering Titan should already take care of this aspect of opposing manabases. If I'm going to be running more utility lands, I'd probably run Buried Ruin, Dust Bowl, Hall of the Bandit Lord or Barbarian Ring before thinking of Ghost Quarter.

Ghost Quarter provides more than just an answer to pesky lands. Sundering Titan doesn't deal with those and sometimes Wasteland aint enough.

Also, like what I said, its a pseudo-fetchland or just a shuffle effect if i really need it with SDT



One last note on your list, it looks like you are running 61 cards. Is this correct?

Yes, though I have been playing around with cutting a single Greaves to keep it on 60. Having 61 isn't really an issue for me though.



Regarding Reforge the Soul.. The immediate discard is actually an effect that Memory Jar doesn't have, I think this makes it better (although in almost every other respect, the Jar > Reforge).[quote]

Yup, Though the end of turn discard is a good and bad thing. Its a bad thing because it doesn't really give you more options to Weld back but its a good thing since you can't really cast everything (unless you run Petals and other cheap acceleration)

[quote]
If you're going to be dropping Forgemaster, do you feel that it would still be worth it to keep it's targets in?
I'm also going to test it for a bit, but have as of yet no idea what I'm going to cut for it.

I still think that miser Sundering Titan (or maybe 2) is a beating. With Reforge also refilling your opponent's hand, Mindslaver isn't such a bad idea after all.


does running chrome mox in combination with these miracle spells make sense here?

No because even with Miracle Wheel, you are only running 11-12 colored spells. Having Chrome Mox is as bad as having Mox Diamond with 15-18 lands.




Rishadan Port: Basically can help turn my extra lands, which in any drawn out game you are probably going to have, into more psuedo lock pieces.

For the longest time, I have been running Rishadan Port (the recent change with Ghost Quarter was recent, though under the Stompy version, Ports are better). I see nothing wrong with this. Its a great compliment with Wasteland.


Chalice/Trinisphere: Kinda bomb to unload turn 1 and pass against the format. Against Tempo and Storm-based combo, its a beating.

Also keep in mind, the only way Canadian (and the rest of the blue-based Tempo decks out there) can deal with them is Force of Will (or Daze/Spell Pierce if you're on the play)


Batterskull: Acting as Wurmcoil #5 with the ability to turn anyone into a win con

I can see this in a deck that doesn't run Welder. Welder is great in returning robots back. Stompy versions has a conditional one (Buried Ruin).


Karn: In theory he has been useful really only a handful of time, but running spine of ish shah as a one of removal with no way to tutor it seems far worse off than powering out this guy who at least offers a bit of card advantage every turn and can remove multiple targets on his own.

He can also win you games where Spine can't. If I can only easily cheat this guy onto the field, I would run it in place of Spine.


Staff of Domination: Most underwhelming card in the list so far

Everyone on this thread has concluded that Staff is a win more card. You can only pull out wins from nowhere if you have a at least 3 artifacts in your hand on top of an active Metalworker. After turn 3, this doesn't happen often.


I'm not sold on any particular sideboard yet, right now I'm toying with this transformational sideboard:

Sideboard (15):

2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster[quote]

What makes it transformational?

[quote]Crucible and Land: Help blow out control and other decks with exploitable bases.[quote]

Why not have this main? Cut Staff for maindeck Crucible. Since Stompy version aim for the midrange game, Crucible is awesome here.

[quote]Revoker: I love him personally, but I'm not sold on his position here in the board. I had them maindeck for a while there, and kind of liked them. He might not have a big enough impact to the decks strategy when you stand him next to beef like lodestone golem.

I find that theyre only good against Storm-based combo and Maverick to an extent (shutting down Qasali Pridemages and Knight of the Reliquary is key). Hence coming from the sideboard is fine. Its not like the meta is overrun with Vial-based strategies.


Forgemaster + Blightsteel: Just seems kind of fun to bust out against certain decks, and works around obnoxious lifegain strats.

Having to pull this off is never a dull moment. You should try doing this:

Achievement Unlocked: Double Kill (Kill an opponent with normal damage and another means outside of normal damage)


For reference I did test the blue splash. Academy ruins was champ there, but it was a turn to slow, and still it outshined what most of the draw spells did. FoF was amazing, but just way too costly to power out. Thoughtcast took its spot after that, and proved equally unimpressive. I didn't test thirst or fabricate, and master transmuter seems really cool but slow. At the very worst show and tell could be a sideboard option. Or you could just run a show and tell variant of the deck using that and forgemaster to power out fatties.

Yes, I've also given up hope with the blue version. The deck already has Buried Ruin so no need for Ruins. As for draw, just lock your opponent out.

I learned from Vintage players that having draw spells in Vintage MUD isn't the way to go. Also from the Vintage MUD Primer from The Mana Drain:


Don't let yourself become a victim of good intentions with poor understanding



AS FOR THE MIRACLE WHEEL.

Yes, I have temporarily cut Forgemaster from my list and replace it with Miracle Wheel. I suggest for those who run the Welder version to at least try playtesting with the list on the opening post and replace Forgemaster with Miracle Wheel.

With my limited testing, its just too effin good.

dillonkbase
04-15-2012, 03:11 PM
Goblin Welder
Blood Moon
Reforge the soul
Faithless Looting
Phyrexian Metamorph

can all support chrome mox and all are pretty good

slaughtercult
04-15-2012, 07:54 PM
Watching the SCG coverage, I noticed a mud player packing some number of copper gnomes in his deck. I can see a good reason for this, as it has a possibility of turning any in-hand artifact into a 6 mana un-counterable spell. Has anyone else tested it?

(nameless one)
04-15-2012, 09:44 PM
Watching the SCG coverage, I noticed a mud player packing some number of copper gnomes in his deck. I can see a good reason for this, as it has a possibility of turning any in-hand artifact into a 6 mana un-counterable spell. Has anyone else tested it?

I have tested it before but have ultimately cut them for Tangle Wire. If you have an active Welder, you can turn them into a 4 mana 'cheat a robot into play'.

noobslayer
04-16-2012, 11:52 PM
I'd love to see what the other splashes can offer. Blue and Red have mostly been exhausted, even if we could do a much more thorough exploration in to their potential I believe. White definitely offers some goodies with Ethersworn Cannonist and Armageddon, both of which are cheap cards great for this sort of deck, and can be powered out with relative ease. I'm not sure what black and green have, I haven't looked too much into all this yet, but what have other people brainstormed but never really put on paper as far as other colors go?

(nameless one)
04-17-2012, 12:01 AM
I'd love to see what the other splashes can offer. Blue and Red have mostly been exhausted, even if we could do a much more thorough exploration in to their potential I believe. White definitely offers some goodies with Ethersworn Cannonist and Armageddon, both of which are cheap cards great for this sort of deck, and can be powered out with relative ease. I'm not sure what black and green have, I haven't looked too much into all this yet, but what have other people brainstormed but never really put on paper as far as other colors go?

carson has splashed black for hand disruption and was thinking of abusing either Nether Void or Abyss (essentially going Staxx-like). You can also try to abuse Heartless Summoning to accelerate robots.

As for white splash, I believe you're better off doing Armageddon Stax. Though there was already a thread under New and Developing that somehow resembles a white-splashed MUD.

As for green, I have tried running Summoning Trap, along with Gaea's Cradle. I can't remember who but someone here at the Source have suggested Sylvan Library on that build for better top decking.

Eventually I stuck with red because of the protection Welder provides along with its synergy with Faithless Looting (and Gamble if you want to run it)

noobslayer
04-17-2012, 12:36 AM
I think Show and Tell is pound for pound the best card the deck can get from Blue. Run a dual splash with Red? Just focus on cheating things via metalworker, goblin welder, show and tell, kuldotha forgemaster? Granted the deck loses its focus in that it can't reliably place down as many lock pieces as it would like while keeping up with its huge monster threats, but in a meta with lighter creature removal you could probably get away with it.

EDIT:

I was trying to brainstorm a list and about three minutes in realized it would be an entirely different deck concept. In order to make the redundancy of the combo engine to power out fatties worth it, you would have to have so many in the list because the deck lacks traditional hand refinement and pre combo tutors to get a lot of it set up. Granted once it gets going it kind of locks as scary as reanimator, just in different ways. It's optimal threat suite is much more different, but it can keep going and going thru awesome recursion tricks.

AllIsDust
04-17-2012, 01:00 AM
I think Show and Tell is pound for pound the best card the deck can get from Blue. Run a dual splash with Red? Just focus on cheating things via metalworker, goblin welder, show and tell, kuldotha forgemaster? Granted the deck loses its focus in that it can't reliably place down as many lock pieces as it would like while keeping up with its huge monster threats, but in a meta with lighter creature removal you could probably get away with it.

EDIT:

I was trying to brainstorm a list and about three minutes in realized it would be an entirely different deck concept. In order to make the redundancy of the combo engine to power out fatties worth it, you would have to have so many in the list because the deck lacks traditional hand refinement and pre combo tutors to get a lot of it set up. Granted once it gets going it kind of locks as scary as reanimator, just in different ways. It's optimal threat suite is much more different, but it can keep going and going thru awesome recursion tricks.
Copper Gnomes might be very good in a Show & Tell List.

(nameless one)
04-17-2012, 07:10 AM
Alright, let's change te topic for a bit.

Has anyone seen this land out of AVR:


Cavern of Souls (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=130155&d=1334651697)

Land (rough translation)

As ~ choose a creature type.

Tap: Add 1 mana to your mana pool

Tap: Add a mana of any color to your mana pool. Only spend this on creatures you've chosen for ~. That spell cannot be countered.

With this, we can actually put Goblin Welder in Stompy builds without the fear of Chalice at one countering it.

Granted, Faithless Looting and SDT will not be as effective but there is Miracle Wheel and another gift from Avacyn herself (though this one is not confirmed):


~

Instant.

Discard your hand, Draw two cards.


Let the discussion begin...

noobslayer
04-18-2012, 11:31 PM
I have a really in depth post coming up.

jtwilkins
04-19-2012, 11:58 AM
I just wanted to post a quick tournament report for a SCG Super Qualifier I attend over the weekend in Fenton Michigan. There were 68 players which make it the biggest legacy event for the state in years. I ended up going 4-0-3 but I was fairly happy with how the deck played.

Land-
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Wasteland
4x Darksteel Citadel
2x Great Furnace
1x Mountain
2x Ghost Quarter

Artifact Mana-
4x Grim Monolith
3x Mox Opal
1x Mox Diamond

Artifacts-
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Lightning Grieves
2x Crucible of Worlds

Artifact Creatures-
4x Metalworker
4x Loadstone Golem
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
4x Wormcoil Engine
1x Blightsteel Colossus
1x Platinum Angel
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Sundering Titan
1x Platinum Emperion
1x Phyrexian Metamorph

Sideboard
1x Chaos Warp
4x Tormond's Crypt
3x Trinisphere
3x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Cursed Totem


Card Choices:
Having only one colored spell I was able to get away with having only three color producing lands. I prefer Steel Citadels due to being wasteland proof and able to achieve metal craft. The two Ghost Quarters were a great addition helping me win two or three matches damaging the opponents fragile mana base. The single Mountain was Path of Exile defense along with utility to path my own City of Traitors if needed. I was really happy with this mana base, it was a lot less fragile then running fewer lands and provided good utility.
No matter what build I always run three Lightning Grieves. I think it sets up more big turn 2 plays and acts as much needed protection. I have also won a lot of games out right from Grieves + Platinum Angel. People take a turn to think they scoop because they have no main deck answers. SE Michigan meta also runs a lot of control and Grieves helps keeps your biggies on the table and not in the land of exile. Crucibles worked great with the 6 wasteland effects. I was able to run two player out of mana.
People laugh at my main deck platinums but they are so win. Main deck they can help you win matches you would normally lose pre-sideboard, they can insta-win if the opponent has no answer. They can buy you time to get back on your feet. Angel flies over moat and Emperion is great beats/blocker.
The newest edition to the deck was the four cursed totems in the sideboard. This deck does so bad against Maverick. My one Maverick match they never came up.


Match 1-
Sneaky Show
I win the die roll and swing with a Wurmcoil on turn two. Traitors, Tomb, Diamond and Grim Monolith cast Wurmcoil + Grieves. Pass the turn then he drops Sneak Attack then swings with a Blightsteel Colossus. Loss
Game two I had a pretty good hand and I think I chalice for one. Then prepare to drop Loadstone on turn two. I pass the turn and he Show & Tells in a Emrakul. Loss

Match 2-
Enchantress
I drop an early Blightsteel which get stopped by Runed Halo. I followup with Emperion which allows me to go crazy with my Ancient Tombs. I drop chalice for 1 and a loadstone. He drops a moat but is severally slowed down. Finally I draw Steel Hellkite and clear his board. Win
Game two I chalice for 1 on my turn. He is never able to keep up with my drops. Win

Match 3-
High Tide
An early chalice for 1 and a set of loadstones make it too hard for him to combo off. Win
Game 2 he repeals a chalice and echoing truths a set of loadstones. Goes off. Loss
Game 3 I drop a chalice for 1 followed by a Trinsphere and the was all she wrote.

Match 4-
Sneaky Show
Game one I open with chalice for 1 followed by loadstones. He played so few cards I barely could tell what he was playing. Win
Game two I opened with trinisphere shortly followed with Crucible of Worlds and Ghost Quarter. I ran him out of land slowly playing threats. Win

Match 5-
Maverick
Lose the die roll but drop first turn chalice for 1 then follow that up with going nuts with metalworker and dropping my hand. Win
Game 2 I board in the Cursed Totems, Revokers, and Chaos Warp. I mulligan down to 5 and have to play a crap hand. I hang in the game for some time. The player is borrowing the deck and decided to play at the land moment. He keeps me off any mana and I am dead in the water. Loss
Game 3 I drop a early wurmcoil that gets o-ringed, chaos warp the o-ring giving him a stoneforge and batterskull. Drop a second wurmcoil. One gets swords and he top decks another o-ring. Not my day. Loss

Match 6-
Burn
Played against a new legacy player and he didn't fully understand the hurt of chalice and loadstone against burn. Quickly Locked him out with chalice and loadstones.
Game 2 was kinda fun, I though he was stalling but he didn't understand that Lightning Grieves made Platinum Angle untargetable. I had a huge set up of chalices, trinisphere but he was protected by a fully leveled Figure of Destiny my Hellkite couldn't get past. After at least 10 turns I hard cast Blightsteel and win. I asked him why he stayed in the game and he said he had one ancient grudge. Win

Match 7-
Snapcaster Controll
Game one he wins the die roll. I have to mul to 5 and have nothing but mana. He ends up casting snapcaster just to swing with. I finally get some momentum and nothing can get though his wall of counters. I get beat by 3 swing snapcasters. Loss
Game 2 I set up Crucible and Ghost Quarter running him out of mana. He stays alive with with three Swords to Plowshares and a Disenchant during this process until he has nothing left. Win
Game 3 I am again met with a wall of counters until he sets up his own Crucible and Wasteland shutting me out of the game. Loss

Afterthoughts:
I am really happy with this beatdown build. The slightly increased mana and robots really made the deck more reliable in current meta.
I am going to try switching up 4 Tormond's Crypt to 4 Surgical Extraction. It will do it's job delaying reanimator & dredge while working against weak mana bases, bounce spells, combo, and most importantly targeted removal such as swords to plowshares. I am really looking forward to testing this with Cavern of Souls.

gamer4life
04-22-2012, 11:30 PM
Zac Hiks-Congrats on your top 16.

I like the Culling Scalls idea. How where they for you?

Hix360
04-24-2012, 04:38 AM
Culling Scales was pretty insane on the day. At first, they were dead cause I never faced anything worth siding them in. The I faced Glimpse-Affinity and 1 Cullig Scales ended up killing every creature he cast. It was also crucial in my last round vs. Maverick. Killed a Noble Hierarch, Mother of Runes, and a Scavenger Ooze to protect myself before drawing into metalworker + staff combo.

I lost 2 matches on the day. Round 1 vs. Hive Mind (Pretty much nothing I can do, outside of landing t1 Trinisphere...) and Round 6 vs. Storm...I jsut rew 0 hate cards vs him.

dillonkbase
04-24-2012, 10:31 AM
Went 4-0 last night at my LGS in a 23 man, this is after going 1-2 drop and 2-2 previously. I am fully convinced that Chalice of the Void should be main deck right now, at least game 1. Its to good vs RUG, Burn, and Storm, plus so much else. So All I did was pre-sideboard it into my list, and side out faithless looting and welder(better against control)

anyway here is my list I think it could use a few more threats, but I am happy with its ability to land a turn one piece of disruption.


[cards] 4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
1 Darksteel Citadel
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Mountain
1 Crystal Vein

4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
2 Copper Gnomes
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Mox Diamond
2 Lightning Greeves
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Steel Hellkite
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Trinishpere
4 Tanglewire
4 Chalice of the Void

SB
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 tormod's crypt
1 Blood Moon
2 pyroclasm
4 goblin welder
3 faithless looting
1 duplicant [cards/]

Comments?

Zirath
04-24-2012, 03:26 PM
I split for 4th recently with the midrange version of this deck. I wrote a little tournament report and I was wondering if this was the right thread to leave it? Here's the report in either case:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23672-Top-4-Split-with-MUD-Mythic-Games-Elmira-NY

ThePatriarch
04-26-2012, 03:06 PM
Congratz to your finish Zirath.I have a couple of questions for you.
Any reason that u are using 3 metalworkers and not 4?
In what match ups u are sding in sundering titans?
No gy hate vs reanimator or dredge?

Zirath
04-26-2012, 10:34 PM
Congratz to your finish Zirath.I have a couple of questions for you.
Any reason that u are using 3 metalworkers and not 4?
In what match ups u are sding in sundering titans?
No gy hate vs reanimator or dredge?

1) Two reasons. The first is that Metalworker is a glass cannon creature which is dangerous. I make up for this by playing Thran Dynamo. Second is Cursed Totem. Cursed Totem allows me to attack decks like Maverick, Bant and DnT and punish the fact that they board way to deal with Metalworker specifically. I have asked many people if they know that I boarded out Metalwoker and they are very surprised.

2) Sundering Titan comes in to replace Emperion in match ups like Esper, NLT or Zoo to screw up their mana. It also punishes them for boarding in removal to deal with my robots. Against most of these decks, Emperion is easily removed by cards like Jace, Ancient Grudge or Swords + Path; Sundering Titan punishes those cards.

3) Reanimator and Dredge are excellent match ups. Graveyard hate has never been necessary. The stax and the fact that my monsters are gigantic gives me a lot of power.

Mr. Ages
04-29-2012, 10:01 AM
I split for 4th recently with the midrange version of this deck. I wrote a little tournament report and I was wondering if this was the right thread to leave it? Here's the report in either case:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23672-Top-4-Split-with-MUD-Mythic-Games-Elmira-NY

Thanks for posting this. After a dissappointing 2-3 Drop at the last Jupiter Games, I was beginning to doubt the deck, but more likely it is the pilot.

While I can admit to a handful of misplays, I felt like I stuggled the most with drawing off the top. Either too much mana or threats I couldn't cast. Do you miss not having something like Sensei's Divining Top, or Faithless Looting?

I do like the balance of your build, that may be the difference. I imagine it was very consistent.

Congrats again.

(nameless one)
04-29-2012, 04:11 PM
I have been testing this list. So far, I have no definitive results but what I can tell its fun to pilot:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Great Furnace
2 Mountain

4 Goblin Welder
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
3 Steel Hellkite
3 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Phyrexian Metamorph

4 Grim Monolith
4 Lotus Petal
3 Scroll Rack
3 Tangle Wire
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Mox Opal

4 Reforge the Soul

I have completely removed Spine of Ish Sah and Sundering Titan for now from my pre-AVR list since I have also removed Forgemasters. I have added Steel Hellkites in place as a means to control the board. Scroll Rack + Reforge the Soul was added in place of Sensei's Divining Top and Faithless Looting (although I miss FLooting's explosiveness with Welder in the early turn).

I actually want to add Chalice of the Void in the main but I am by sure if I should run Welder (+ Cavern of Souls) with it. CotV negates the drawback of Reforge the Soul of having the opponent to draw 7 cards.

The problem with it the redevelopment of the mana-base.

Has anyone tried testing a list with Reforge the Soul?

bartmanqc
04-29-2012, 07:22 PM
Do we really need to run things like SDT or scroll rack for this miracle wheel to be good? 5 mana isn't so hard to reach in this deck...

(nameless one)
04-29-2012, 07:56 PM
Do we really need to run things like SDT or scroll rack for this miracle wheel to be good? 5 mana isn't so hard to reach in this deck...

I ran SDT anyways before pre-AVR (refer to my list on the second post of this thread). It helps the consistency of the deck in some ways and has that little synergy with Faithless Looting and in some ways Ghost Quarter and Forgemaster.

When Reforge the Soul first got spoiled, I have completely removed Forgemasters from that said list for them. While reaching five mana isnt that hard, I noticed two things:

- Once you Reforge the Soul for five, you will have minimal to no mana source after it.
- Double red is a mission to achieve.

I have then replaced SDT with Scroll Rack and completely rid of Faithless Looting to accommodate a full-set of Reforge the Soul. Scroll Rack helps in a way that when you have Reforge the Soul in your opening hand, its not as hard to cast. It also helps in situations where you get hands that do not have lands when you require lands.

With the removal of SDT and Faithless Looting, I think the next step is to incorporate Chalice of the Void in the main (and if Welder needs to be abused, Cavern of Souls might be needed).

As of now, I am back to square one when it comes to testing. It doesn't help that I am busy with work among other things.

I have missed this:


Went 4-0 last night at my LGS in a 23 man, this is after going 1-2 drop and 2-2 previously. I am fully convinced that Chalice of the Void should be main deck right now, at least game 1. Its to good vs RUG, Burn, and Storm, plus so much else. So All I did was pre-sideboard it into my list, and side out faithless looting and welder(better against control)

anyway here is my list I think it could use a few more threats, but I am happy with its ability to land a turn one piece of disruption.


[cards] 4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
1 Darksteel Citadel
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Mountain
1 Crystal Vein

4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
2 Copper Gnomes
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Mox Diamond
2 Lightning Greeves
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Steel Hellkite
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Trinishpere
4 Tanglewire
4 Chalice of the Void

SB
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 tormod's crypt
1 Blood Moon
2 pyroclasm
4 goblin welder
3 faithless looting
1 duplicant [cards/]

Comments?

I personally do not like Copper Gnomes. I tested it before. Its good in a way that for 6 mana, you can cheat a Blightsteel Colossus on the field at your opponent's turn. But outside of that, its essentially a Metalworker. Also, for 6 mana, why waste a card slot when you can just drop your Wurmcoil/Steel Hellkite/Lodestone Golem.

I would up the Forgemaster to four if your going to run that single Blightsteel Colossus. Possibly up the Crucibles to two (especially if you're running Mox Diamonds)

Also, I do not like running both Trinisphere and Tangle Wire on the main at the same time. They do the same thing in a different way: slow the opponent down. Unlike CotV at one which stops a lot of spells, 3sphere will only make those spells cost more. Tangle Wire is more for decks that can resolve early threats. I would also like to mention that tapping a 3sphere for a Tangle Wire isn't going to help you.

dillonkbase
04-29-2012, 09:48 PM
I ran SDT anyways before pre-AVR (refer to my list on the second post of this thread). It helps the consistency of the deck in some ways and has that little synergy with Faithless Looting and in some ways Ghost Quarter and Forgemaster.

When Reforge the Soul first got spoiled, I have completely removed Forgemasters from that said list for them. While reaching five mana isnt that hard, I noticed two things:

- Once you Reforge the Soul for five, you will have minimal to no mana source after it.
- Double red is a mission to achieve.

I have then replaced SDT with Scroll Rack and completely rid of Faithless Looting to accommodate a full-set of Reforge the Soul. Scroll Rack helps in a way that when you have Reforge the Soul in your opening hand, its not as hard to cast. It also helps in situations where you get hands that do not have lands when you require lands.

With the removal of SDT and Faithless Looting, I think the next step is to incorporate Chalice of the Void in the main (and if Welder needs to be abused, Cavern of Souls might be needed).

As of now, I am back to square one when it comes to testing. It doesn't help that I am busy with work among other things.

I have missed this:

QUOTE=dillonkbase;638192]Went 4-0 last night at my LGS in a 23 man, this is after going 1-2 drop and 2-2 previously. I am fully convinced that Chalice of the Void should be main deck right now, at least game 1. Its to good vs RUG, Burn, and Storm, plus so much else. So All I did was pre-sideboard it into my list, and side out faithless looting and welder(better against control)

anyway here is my list I think it could use a few more threats, but I am happy with its ability to land a turn one piece of disruption.


[cards] 4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
1 Darksteel Citadel
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Mountain
1 Crystal Vein

4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
2 Copper Gnomes
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Mox Diamond
2 Lightning Greeves
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Steel Hellkite
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Trinishpere
4 Tanglewire
4 Chalice of the Void

SB
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 tormod's crypt
1 Blood Moon
2 pyroclasm
4 goblin welder
3 faithless looting
1 duplicant [cards/]

Comments?
I personally do not like Copper Gnomes. I tested it before. Its good in a way that for 6 mana, you can cheat a Blightsteel Colossus on the field at your opponent's turn. But outside of that, its essentially a Metalworker. Also, for 6 mana, why waste a card slot when you can just drop your Wurmcoil/Steel Hellkite/Lodestone Golem.

I would up the Forgemaster to four if your going to run that single Blightsteel Colossus. Possibly up the Crucibles to two (especially if you're running Mox Diamonds)

Also, I do not like running both Trinisphere and Tangle Wire on the main at the same time. They do the same thing in a different way: slow the opponent down. Unlike CotV at one which stops a lot of spells, 3sphere will only make those spells cost more. Tangle Wire is more for decks that can resolve early threats. I would also like to mention that tapping a 3sphere for a Tangle Wire isn't going to help you.

The reason I like copper gnomes is that is that it gives me a threat to play turn one, it makes tempo easier to have. Turn one gnome eats many of counters that otherwise would hit your metalworker or whatever. As for running both 3sphere and tangle wire, I am also not sold on that, and have been considering some number of sphere of resistance (over 3sphere). Sphere of resistance offers another turn one piece of disruption, which is why I am playing so many pieces of disruption and extra land.

0dysseus
05-01-2012, 04:37 AM
[...]
Match 3-

High Tide
An early chalice for 1 and a set of loadstones make it too hard for him to combo off. Win
Game 2 he repeals a chalice and echoing truths a set of loadstones. Goes off. Loss
Game 3 I drop a chalice for 1 followed by a Trinsphere and the was all she wrote.
[...]


Game 2: Chalice of the Void (set @ 1) cannot be Repealed, because it counters Repeal with X=0...I guess you had two charge counters on it on Game 2.

noobslayer
05-02-2012, 12:23 AM
I'm still editing and piecing together my big post, but I was curious if anyone thought of running Forgemaster, but not running any big targets in the main? Treat it sort of like Dread Return in dredge, and keep two targets in the board, in this case it would probably be Blightsteel Collosus, and maybe Emperion or Sundering Titan? I think it warrants an approach.

dillonkbase
05-02-2012, 12:42 AM
I'm still editing and piecing together my big post, but I was curious if anyone thought of running Forgemaster, but not running any big targets in the main? Treat it sort of like Dread Return in dredge, and keep two targets in the board, in this case it would probably be Blightsteel Collosus, and maybe Emperion or Sundering Titan? I think it warrants an approach.

I have thought about that, and although I have been tempted, I think at least one big target should be run, either one blightsteel or one sundering titan because these cards can end games almost immediately. The hardest question is which one do you choose, the one that is backbreaking even if it is hit by removal(as long as they have lands to hit) or the one hit wonder (vulnerable to swords). Answering the question prior to a game is the hardest, its why people play both. Playing one of these creatures to tutor up is a 1/60 risk I am willing to take.

noobslayer
05-02-2012, 12:49 AM
I have thought about that, and although I have been tempted, I think at least one big target should be run, either one blightsteel or one sundering titan because these cards can end games almost immediately. The hardest question is which one do you choose, the one that is backbreaking even if it is hit by removal(as long as they have lands to hit) or the one hit wonder (vulnerable to swords). Answering the question prior to a game is the hardest, its why people play both. Playing one of these creatures to tutor up is a 1/60 risk I am willing to take.

I thought that argument would come up pretty quick. The ability to instantly tutor a Wurmcoil, Hellkite, or Emperion game one seems kind of boss. Then game two you get specific answers. I myself personally also run a Batterskull in the main so it's also great to that end.

And I think your point about which target you would want to run in the main is exactly the reason you might want to consider keeping those options in the board. Dredge still Dread Returns a GGT, we can Forgemaster into consistent targets.

I also think having a target at five helps smooth out the curve. I have also opted to cut Moxen, and in testing this is re-shaping some of my card choices. So my list is still in development right now, and the thoughts about Forgemaster have me brainstorming in a bunch of different directions at the moment.

dillonkbase
05-02-2012, 01:45 AM
I guess I would say sacing 3 artifacts to get a wurmcoil that eats a STP seems like a big risk versus getting a titan that at least takes out some land... the caveat is that if you have chalice of the void maindeck I think the "finishers" are less important chalice into lodestone or wurmcoil is almost always a victory.

I would also point out that the mana to cast any of these artifacts gets relativity easy to find if you land a metalworker and that if you are playing looting and welder titan becomes easier to get onto the battlefield.

Finally I would say what we are doing turn one to survive until our late game is way more important than our late game itself. I actually think what the deck is really lacking is a better 2 drop than steel golem or ravager, chalice of the void is excellent, but quality turn one plays are somewhat lacking.

(nameless one)
05-02-2012, 07:04 AM
I'm still editing and piecing together my big post, but I was curious if anyone thought of running Forgemaster, but not running any big targets in the main? Treat it sort of like Dread Return in dredge, and keep two targets in the board, in this case it would probably be Blightsteel Collosus, and maybe Emperion or Sundering Titan? I think it warrants an approach.


My pre-AVR build follows this principle. See the second post of this thread. I run Sundering Titan and Spine of Ish Sah as my main targets.


I guess I would say sacing 3 artifacts to get a wurmcoil that eats a STP seems like a big risk versus getting a titan that at least takes out some land... the caveat is that if you have chalice of the void maindeck I think the "finishers" are less important chalice into lodestone or wurmcoil is almost always a victory.

When I Forgemaster for something, STitan is always my first choice unless otherwise. Worse case scenario he gets remove and destroys 2+ lands with him.


Finally I would say what we are doing turn one to survive until our late game is way more important than our late game itself. I actually think what the deck is really lacking is a better 2 drop than steel golem or ravager, chalice of the void is excellent, but quality turn one plays are somewhat lacking.

In my pre-AVR build, I consider the following as quality turn 1 plays:

Goblin Welder - it will be a protection and threat in the same package.

Faithless Looting - fixes your hand.

SDT - fixes your draw.

Metalworker - I run Lotus Petals so it's not impossible. And if left unmolested, you are in great position on the following turn.

Grim Monolith - a turn 2 Forgemaster/Wurmcoil Engine/whatever threat you can throw down is never bad.

Other options:

Spellskite - a 0/4 wall that can protect your pieces? Why not (though with the mentioned list, the slots are already tight.

dillonkbase
05-02-2012, 10:56 AM
My pre-AVR build follows this principle. See the second post of this thread. I run Sundering Titan and Spine of Ish Sah as my main targets.

When I Forgemaster for something, STitan is always my first choice unless otherwise. Worse case scenario he gets remove and destroys 2+ lands with him.

Agreed on titan, spine is only good MD if running a welder package imho.


In my pre-AVR build, I consider the following as quality turn 1 plays:

Goblin Welder - it will be a protection and threat in the same package.

Faithless Looting - fixes your hand.

Turn one plays involving red mana generally mean no turn two lodestone, and one drops in general exclude Chalice of the Void. Chalice blanks no less than 10 cards in every deck turn one.

http://static.starcitygames.com/sales//images/deckdb/45617-mana.pnghttp://static.starcitygames.com/sales//images/deckdb/45621-mana.pnghttp://static.starcitygames.com/sales//images/deckdb/45625-mana.pnghttp://static.starcitygames.com/sales//images/deckdb/45626-mana.png
______Delver____________BUG Control______________Maverick _____________ Esper stoneblade


SDT - fixes your draw.
Metalworker - I run Lotus Petals so it's not impossible. And if left unmolested, you are in great position on the following turn.
Grim Monolith - a turn 2 Forgemaster/Wurmcoil Engine/whatever threat you can throw down is never bad.

Other options:

Spellskite - a 0/4 wall that can protect your pieces? Why not (though with the mentioned list, the slots are already tight.

My problem with playing these turn one is that they don't do anything right then. SDT does to little in a deck with only 4 shuffle effects. Metalworker dies to cards that cost less resources to cast and if you are playing it turn one you undoubtedly have dropped the artifacts that make it a powerhouse in your hand onto the battlefield. Monolith turn one is fine although it sets you up for a two for one when they counter your threat. Spellskite is just worse than chalice at doing the same thing.

I almost always love to see them pitch spells and work desperately to counter my turn one chalice, it tells you if they have a force(if you are on the play), or daze, pierce, or snare(if you are playing second). If it resolves you are safe from swords and bolts on your metalworker/ lodestone and if it doesn't they may have just used all their resources to counter that and you can follow up with a metalworker/forgemaster/lodestone.

(nameless one)
05-02-2012, 05:10 PM
I almost always love to see them pitch spells and work desperately to counter my turn one chalice, it tells you if they have a force(if you are on the play), or daze, pierce, or snare(if you are playing second). If it resolves you are safe from swords and bolts on your metalworker/ lodestone and if it doesn't they may have just used all their resources to counter that and you can follow up with a metalworker/forgemaster/lodestone.

Actually, you make a fine point on this. I'm actually contemplating on whether I go Chalice + Welder (w/ Cavern of Souls) for stability or Welder + Reforge the Soul for speed.

Chalice blanks do much cards in the format right now and I always find myself siding them in a lot of matchups.

dillonkbase
05-02-2012, 09:05 PM
Actually, you make a fine point on this. I'm actually contemplating on whether I go Chalice + Welder (w/ Cavern of Souls) for stability or Welder + Reforge the Soul for speed.

Chalice blanks do much cards in the format right now and I always find myself siding them in a lot of matchups.


My win percent went up significantly when I moved one drops to the side and chalice to the main.

I am interested to see if cavern is worth playing to play welder through chalice, however seems hard to support other red sources to do that and play reforge the soul.:rolleyes:

(nameless one)
05-02-2012, 10:52 PM
My win percent went up significantly when I moved one drops to the side and chalice to the main.

I am interested to see if cavern is worth playing to play welder through chalice, however seems hard to support other red sources to do that and play reforge the soul.:rolleyes:


After my limited testing with the Reforge the Soul list from the previous page, I found that against control Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile is a real threat.

However on the other hand, Welder is bonkers with Reforge.


And you are right with that red source. I seriously am boggled right now as I have yet to figure out which direction the deck should go.

vintersorg
05-03-2012, 11:29 AM
First of all, hello guys, I'm new here, i was testing two mud builds for 2 months (cockatrice) because i want to build them this month. I made a red version and a blue version and I would like to give my opinion / some feedback from yours, first of all let's see the red version:

Artifacts:
4 Grim monolith
2 Lightning Greaves
3 Mox Opal
1 Spine of Ish Sah
3 Tangle Wire
3 Voltaic Key
Creatures:
1 Blightsteel colossus
4 Goblin Welder
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Lodestone golem
4 Metalworker
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Sundering Titan
4 Wurmcoil Engine
Sorcery:
1 All is Dust
3 Faithless looting
Lands:
4 Ancient tomb
4 City of traitors
2 Darksteel Citadel
4 Great Furnace
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
3 Mountain

I planning to use one or two reforge the soul since i can't use memory jar in legacy, i think reforge the soul + goblin welder or metalworker = awesomeness, the deck runs pretty fine, goblin welder + tangle wire is good to keep the guy in a soft lock or to open his barriers and attack him directly. I'm using the chalices in the sb because they screw the welders.

Now I will show my blue version, i tested thousands of times and its nice but i never saw a build like this one so i really need a feedback from you guys to know if it's worthing in the legacy scene:

Artifacts:
3 chalice of the void
4 grim monolith
3 lightning greaves
3 mox opal
2 sensei's divining top
1 spine of ish sah
4 voltaic key
Creatures:
1 blightsteel colossus
3 kuldotha forgemaster
4 lodestone golem
4 master transmuter
4 metalworker
1 myr battlesphere
1 steel hellkite
1 sundering titan
2 wurmcoil engine

lands:
1 academy ruins
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
3 darksteel citadel
3 island
4 seat of the synod

Now i will explain why i made this build:
I was trying to do something different, the worst card against us imo is swords or path, so chalice for 1 in turn 1 is the real deal, i was thinking in a way to do chalice for one and don't screw a creature that cheat artifacts in play, so i found master transmuter, the reasons I'm trying to use her are these:
1) She can protects herself + my artifacts
2) I can do a lot, i mean A LOT of insane combos with my artifacts in my hand, like this: Cast Myr Battlesphere ( 4 tokens), pay one blue, return the sphere and return itself with the same effect ( 8 tokens), if i have a key in the field i untap master and do it again (12 tokens).
3) Spine of Ish Sah, i can destroys 2 permanents every turn
4) Sundering Titan, that's really awesome, in just ONE turn i cand destroys at least 3 basic lands..think about it, cast titan (destroys one land), return to hand ( second) and cast it again with the same effect (third one) that's really insane, that's the reason i don't run wasteland in this deck, and in the red version i don't use them because after playing a lot of times the wastelands + crucible was never a "win-factor" and i could use something more useful so i put them out.

Now i would like to know what you guys think about my two versions and which one you think it's better, i will build one so now i don't really know which one )':

dillonkbase
05-03-2012, 12:24 PM
If I was going to go blue I wouldn't want to muck up all my one drops with chalice, here is what I would test

4 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Temporal Mastery
4 esperzoa -good with monolith and tangle wire
3 master of etherium
4 force of will


4 chalice of the void
4 tangle wire
4 lodestone golem

2 wurmcoil engine

4 Grim Monolith
2 metalworker
3 Chrome Mox

4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 wasteland
4 island
2 seat of synod

noobslayer
05-06-2012, 11:44 AM
I am having some qualms about Metalworker. Either it's nuts or it's garbage. And especially without Moxen, it becomes much harder to power out turn on, and you end up having committing a bunch of resources if you want to do that. Getting one use out of your Grim Monolith sucks when your Metalworker eats a spell. When he activates you empty half your hand, but sometimes that isn't until turn 3 or 4, and by then I hope to god you got some sort of lock piece on the board because otherwise whatever you drop is not likely to be that game breaking.

slaughtercult
05-07-2012, 07:47 AM
This list took 12th place last night at the scg.


4 Grim Monolith
3 Grindstone
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Lotus Petal
2 Voltaic Key

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Myr Battlesphere
3 Painter's Servant
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Steel Hellkite
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Goblin Welder
1 Mindslaver
1 Mox Opal

4 Great Furnace
1 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Trinisphere
2 Witchbane Orb
1 Platinum Angel
4 Pyroblast

I kinda like it. The addition of painter/stone combo is interesting. Does this inclusion look like it is worth further testing? Also, Cavern of Souls makes an appearance in this list...must have been effective.

Mirrislegend
05-07-2012, 05:17 PM
I was hanging out with that 12th place guy as he was assembling his deck. I don't know if you guys see this interaction, but when he explained it to me, I was blown away: Cavern of Souls resolves Goblin Welder through your own Chalice at 1. I was floored. MUD has always had so much potential, but I believe that interaction provides it with the ability to be Tier 1

tsabo_tavoc
05-07-2012, 05:39 PM
I was hanging out with that 12th place guy as he was assembling his deck. I don't know if you guys see this interaction, but when he explained it to me, I was blown away: Cavern of Souls resolves Goblin Welder through your own Chalice at 1. I was floored. MUD has always had so much potential, but I believe that interaction provides it with the ability to be Tier 1

Then, he decided to play Grindstone over Chalice?

(nameless one)
05-07-2012, 06:53 PM
I was hanging out with that 12th place guy as he was assembling his deck. I don't know if you guys see this interaction, but when he explained it to me, I was blown away: Cavern of Souls resolves Goblin Welder through your own Chalice at 1. I was floored. MUD has always had so much potential, but I believe that interaction provides it with the ability to be Tier 1

I have been advocating that but I am currently divided with going all in with Reforge the Soul+Welder or Chalice+Welder. That and I've been busy with work.

lordofthepit
05-08-2012, 02:55 AM
I ended up with tezzeret over temporal mastery, it never saw play(only drew it it hands I mulliganed, and I think I pitched it to a fow once as well).

I ended up going 3-1(2-0 enchantress,2-0 nic fit,1-2 rug,2-0elves combo)
I won against nic fit on the back of metamorph and jace, metamorph kills all their legends.

Esperzoa was sweet all night, bouncing tanglewires and monoliths, it got pitched to force as well.

Overall, I think I will drop the maze, for a regular land and switch the 2 tezzeret one for a 3rd Jace, and a maindeck trinisphere? I never really felt confident that I was going to find a black and a blue at once, so getting rid of the seats, and U sea's in favor of islands and maybe an academy ruins seems good.

Tezzeret > Temporal Mastery

Sick non-combo with Tangle Wire.

dillonkbase
05-08-2012, 09:52 AM
Tezzeret > Temporal Mastery

Sick non-combo with Tangle Wire.

I am sure Tezzeret is better than mastery, I am not sure going 2 colors is really better than just being blue (Although if I owned 4 seas I might feel differently).

kingtk3
05-11-2012, 05:43 AM
I've been in trouble against maverick: what do you think it's the best plan against mav?
For reference my list is


4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 wasteland
4 great furnace
3 rishadan port
2 mountain

4 grim monolith
3 metalworker
2 thran dynamo
3 lotus petal
2 mox opal

4 chalice of the void
3 trinisphere

4 lodestone golem
4 wurmcoil engine
3 steel hellkite
1 phyrexian metamorph
2 karn liberated

4 reforge the soul

SIDEBOARD
3 ratchet bomb
3 cursed totem
2 grafdigger's cage
2 tormod's crypt
1 karn liberated
3 phyrexian revoker
1 trinisphere


The only advantage I get from chalice is for their removals but only if I follow with a robot. Trinisphere seems useless also...

Last time I went -4 reforge the soul, -1 lotus petal, -3 trinisphere +3 cursed totem, +3 ratchet bomb, +2 grafdigger's cage but still lost to aggro mav although wit cage and totem in play...

dillonkbase
05-11-2012, 02:30 PM
I've been in trouble against maverick: what do you think it's the best plan against mav?


I don't think reforge the soul makes any sense without goblin welder, and if you are having a hard time I would suggest more metamorph and less karn. Spellskite is another good option, for two life you can redirect a pridemage or swords.


In other news, I am going to try dropping black in my build and adding more islands (over seat of the synod) and playing a transmute artifact main, and submerges in the side.

kingtk3
05-12-2012, 09:26 AM
I'm trying reforge the soul to manipulate the library when i've run out of gas or didn't have much acceleration: I'm not completely sold but, in theory, it could give some value even without comboing with welder, which I don't run in favor of chalice of the void.

Regarding the mav matchup: how metamorph is going to help? Karn in general it's nuts against them, but that's why the search gaddock asap.
In general the problem against mav is that it's an aggro deck with different casting costs (no good with chalice) and fetchable answers (gaddock, qasali...)

dillonkbase
05-12-2012, 11:41 AM
I'm trying reforge the soul to manipulate the library when i've run out of gas or didn't have much acceleration: I'm not completely sold but, in theory, it could give some value even without comboing with welder, which I don't run in favor of chalice of the void.

Running 4 red cards in the entire 75 should make you question if reforge the soul is the best spell for what you want to do.

what about running blue for 2 Jace and 2 Thirst for Knowledge or 2 Thoughtcast? Jace Gives you all sort of late game power and plenty of library manipulation


Regarding the mav matchup: how metamorph is going to help? Karn in general it's nuts against them, but that's why the search gaddock asap.
In general the problem against mav is that it's an aggro deck with different casting costs (no good with chalice) and fetchable answers (gaddock, qasali...)

Metamorph is cheaper and can hold the ground until you can get a 6 drop in play(and you can play it through teeg). The fact of the matter is that soul land and monolith + anyland and a six drop is an awesome turn 2 play getting to 7 mana turn two is less likely and will leave you with much less ammo(your monolith is tapped and you used your petal or whatever.)

dillonkbase
05-12-2012, 12:25 PM
Wrong thread. - Bardo

bruizar
05-17-2012, 08:17 AM
I am sure Tezzeret is better than mastery, I am not sure going 2 colors is really better than just being blue (Although if I owned 4 seas I might feel differently).

You are right, but blue is the wrong color.

dillonkbase
05-17-2012, 10:32 AM
You are right, but blue is the wrong color.

Ignore that part of the post, it is relevant to a set of deleted posts for a blue build I am working on, hence the, "in othernews"

bruizar
05-17-2012, 12:49 PM
Ignore that part of the post, it is relevant to a set of deleted posts for a blue build I am working on, hence the, "in othernews"

I am currently also testing an unpublished build. The main advice I can give you is to ask yourself how your list takes care of MUD's weaknesses. I believe my list takes care of 2 out of 4 weaknesses that MUD inherently has. Once we solve all weaknesses, the deck should be tier 1.

(nameless one)
05-17-2012, 05:58 PM
I am currently also testing an unpublished build. The main advice I can give you is to ask yourself how your list takes care of MUD's weaknesses. I believe my list takes care of 2 out of 4 weaknesses that MUD inherently has. Once we solve all weaknesses, the deck should be tier 1.


So the four weaknesses of the deck:

Inconsistency - We all know how this deck mulligans and draws when you're behind. My Welder version fixes this by running Faithless Looting and SDT and they have that small interaction with Goblin Welder.

Weakness to artifact hate - The central theme of the deck is abuse powerful artifacts and artifacts that enable such. My Welder version solves this by having minimal artifact lands and Welders (in junction with FLooting) to pick up the slack Metalworker/Forgemaster/whatever accelerant you have.

Weakness to exile spells (Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile) - For the cost of one white, your lone beater that you used so much resources is gone and cannot even be recurred. The inconsistency of this deck doesn't help. While my version can't fix this problem, I believe the Chalice/Stompy versions does.

Sacrificing Tempo for Quality - if your opponent cannot deal with your turn 2 Wurmcoil Engine, you're fine. If he/she can, you're screwed. I believe this is the deck's weakness. Either the Chalice or Welder versions can fix this.

I'm not saying my posted Welder Version is the way to go, I just find it more consistent compared to what I've tested before.

The problem I've had with the Chalice build is it's inconsistency and if you can't land a Chalice early on, you are going to fall way behind. At least the Welder builds are comboesque enough to actually race control and aggro before they can have answers because once they answer your threat, it's an uphill battle.

Would you like to share some of your findings?

bruizar
05-18-2012, 02:28 AM
There are 4 matchups this deck needs to be able to win.

Combo
Blue control
Maverick
RUG Tempo

Combo
With 4 Lodestones, 4 Chalice of the Void and 4 Trinisphere, combo is something we are already murdering.

Blue control
Blue control is actually pretty easy if you can stick a threat. That's all you want to do in the entire game. Stick 1 threat and beat opponent to a pulp. This means you must answer the some of the best cards in the format: Swords to Plowshares and counters. Wurmcoil is not that good here, because Jace will tie up 18 mana by bouncing it 3 turns. Lodestone Golem is your man in this matchup. It's an affordable clock that delays Jace, giving you time to find and cast another threat. With my list, I am currently winning all my best of 3's against UW and Esperblade.

RUG Tempo
This matchup is actually pretty easy, because they don't have Swords to Plowshares. You have to resolve Chalice for 1 or a Wurmcoil Engine to win. Why? Chalice disables Delver, Lightning Bolts, and thus invalidates Snapcaster Mage. That leaves maybe Goyf as the only relevant threat. Wurmcoil's lifelink just races hard. They don't have any threats that beat Wurmcoil. Postboard it becomes difficult due to ancient grudge, in which case Chalice for 2 should save your butt.

Maverick
This is by far the hardest matchup there is. Knight of the Reliquary and utility land is just a bitch. I am currently testing Magus of the Moon / Blood Moon. I'm not sure which is better yet. Magus can be resolved through Cavern of Souls against other decks, while Blood Moon can't catch a plow against Maverick. Qasali still beats it though, and with a single forest or Noble Hierarch, they have access to Green Sun's Zenith so its not really a plan I like.. Another thing that is strong against Maverick is flying. I haven't tested Steel Hellkite enough, but I can imagine it's pretty potent against Maverick. I'm currently running Triskelavus as a 1-off Forgemaster target, next to Sundering Titan and Blightsteel Colossus. I'm still sort of testing him but I like him so far. The main reason is because he can do everything. He can kill Jace, give you Goblin Welder fodder, gives you flying, can block Batterskull and avoid the lifelink trigger, kill bridge from belows and kill stupid value creatures such as Noble Hierarch, Dark Confidant, etc. Maverick is just a really tough nut to crack because it is so diverse. Even if you resolve a threat, you still have to beat Maze of Ith. I believe I have the tools to combat this deck but I would like to keep it secret for now. I am not playing All is Dust or Karn, though I am re-testing a singleton Karn for Maverick. I dislike both of these cards because they increase the curve and make problem #1 (inconsistency/mulligans) more of a problem. When you have an inconsistent deck, you occasionally lose against yourself. That should never happen, thus I'm bearish about cards like Karn and All is Dust.


So the four weaknesses of the deck:

Inconsistency - We all know how this deck mulligans and draws when you're behind. My Welder version fixes this by running Faithless Looting and SDT and they have that small interaction with Goblin Welder.

This can partially be solved by lowering the curve of the deck or by running Serum Powder. This is still something that I have troubles with. Lodestone Golem is an auto-include for me because it helps lower the curve while raising the curve for your opponent. This is still the biggest issue I have with the deck.



Weakness to artifact hate - The central theme of the deck is abuse powerful artifacts and artifacts that enable such. My Welder version solves this by having minimal artifact lands and Welders (in junction with FLooting) to pick up the slack Metalworker/Forgemaster/whatever accelerant you have.

I have partly alleviated this by splashing non-artifacts and using welder, but the fact remains that Ancient Grudge just beats you. Qasali Pridemage however, doesn't hold a candle against my deck. It is mass removal that I should worry about.




Weakness to exile spells (Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile) - For the cost of one white, your lone beater that you used so much resources is gone and cannot even be recurred. The inconsistency of this deck doesn't help. While my version can't fix this problem, I believe the Chalice/Stompy versions does.

I solved this entirely. Decks relying on Swords to Plowshares will not survive against me. Chalice is 1 part of the equation, but there are 2 others.



Sacrificing Tempo for Quality - if your opponent cannot deal with your turn 2 Wurmcoil Engine, you're fine. If he/she can, you're screwed. I believe this is the deck's weakness. Either the Chalice or Welder versions can fix this.

Running into counters really, really, really sucks. Paying 6 for Wurmcoil only to have it Dazed or FoW'd is a quick path to the lower parts of the standings. Cavern of Souls is non-discussable for me.




I'm not saying my posted Welder Version is the way to go, I just find it more consistent compared to what I've tested before.

The problem I've had with the Chalice build is it's inconsistency and if you can't land a Chalice early on, you are going to fall way behind. At least the Welder builds are comboesque enough to actually race control and aggro before they can have answers because once they answer your threat, it's an uphill battle.

Would you like to share some of your findings?


As you can infer from my post, I am playing with Goblin Welder, Chalice and Cavern of Souls, which I think is the dominant framework for the deck right now. I use Goblin Welder more as part part of a general toolkit against counters though. I don't rely on the graveyard by playing cards such as faithless looting. Once counters are gone, your main focus should be beating Swords to Plowshares.

Hopo
05-18-2012, 06:04 AM
If you are planning to play MUD succesfully for several tournaments, the biggest issue you can come up with (hate-wise) is Null Rod. I have played my share of MUD on both sides of the table and Null Rod tends to be game, no matter what you do. You have a chance by being on the play and dropping a first turn Metalworker, but it's a slim chance and you need to have gas for your second turn as well as hoping that your worker lives long enough.

Another thing is Wasteland, or non-basic hate in general. In my last tournament against MUD I lost the first game horribly to Chalice, but won the next ones mainly due to playing Wasteland.

MUD has the built-in fault of scooping to an early Null Rod, which is a fine tool against Affinity and Storm as well. It is the go-to hate card if you see two out of three of said decks regularly, which happens to be so here where I live. I tend to think that the inconsistency issues can be addressed by proper building and Welders, but there is so much really effective hate available you must dodge or survive through.

Cavern of Souls, Welder and Chalice is a premium strategy you should be exploiting. You will have good times making your constructs, goblins and golems uncounterable.

dillonkbase
05-18-2012, 11:09 AM
If you are planning to play MUD succesfully for several tournaments, the biggest issue you can come up with (hate-wise) is Null Rod. I have played my share of MUD on both sides of the table and Null Rod tends to be game, no matter what you do. You have a chance by being on the play and dropping a first turn Metalworker, but it's a slim chance and you need to have gas for your second turn as well as hoping that your worker lives long enough.



Null rod is just another build constraint that pushes builds away from artifact enablers like forgemaster and metalworker. If you are not playing those two cards your manabase won't need the artifact lands that make it a blowout when rod hits play. Lodestone, chalice, trinisphere, wurmcoil, metamorph, tanglewire; they all work under rod, but your manabase needs to be capable of casting them.

bruizar
05-18-2012, 03:37 PM
Null rod is just another build constraint that pushes builds away from artifact enablers like forgemaster and metalworker. If you are not playing those two cards your manabase won't need the artifact lands that make it a blowout when rod hits play. Lodestone, chalice, trinisphere, wurmcoil, metamorph, tanglewire; they all work under rod, but your manabase needs to be capable of casting them.

One of my favorite cards, while I'm currently not playing it, is Razormane Masticore which circumvents null rod like hell, and is good anyway.

Hopo
05-19-2012, 08:08 AM
any 5 mana artifact will most likely never enter play if there's a Null Rod in play. Unless you play a lot of basics, which generally is counterproductive if your plan is to resolve 7 mana bombs.

bruizar
05-19-2012, 11:01 AM
any 5 mana artifact will most likely never enter play if there's a Null Rod in play. Unless you play a lot of basics, which generally is counterproductive if your plan is to resolve 7 mana bombs.

I don't think this generalization is correct. I've played many variations of MUD and monobrown prison decks a zillion times. 5 mana is often still a turn 3 play with ancient tomb and city of traitors. The only situation where you might be correct is if you draw a hand with Great Furnaces and even then all is not lost.

If you are relying on Grim Monolith / Metalworker, you are going to lose to yourself more than a couple of times during the lifespan of your deck. Not trying to hate on your opinion, but this is exactly how you should not build MUD.

4 and 5 mana are the sweet spots of legacy MUD. Dedicating slots to 6 mana cards needs to be done sparingly, and I'm not entirely sure if there is room for 7 mana cards at all except for Forgemaster tricks.

Increasing dependence on Grim Monolith and Metalworker is exactly what brings variation to the deck's mulligans. Decreasing dependence on Grim Monolith and Metalworker is what liberates this deck from the curse of losing to itself.

If you are overly relying on Metalworker and Grim Monolith, you become more and more like an SNT combo deck (requiring hand sculpting/stars to align) but only with less powerful plays. If I need the perfect combinations of threats, ramp and mana, I might as well just play a card that reads: you lose the game, instead of a lifelink/deathtouch craw wurm with summoning sickness. Even worst, you play craw wurms without Brainstorm and Ponder to sculpt your hand!

I'm fairly confident that cards like Karn Liberated and All is Dust are NOT the right way to build MUD, and will by default lead to suboptimal builds. Hell, even Wurmcoil Engine is on my chopping block (sideboard card perhaps).

Vandalize
05-19-2012, 11:00 PM
I don't think this generalization is correct. I've played many variations of MUD and monobrown prison decks a zillion times. 5 mana is often still a turn 3 play with ancient tomb and city of traitors. The only situation where you might be correct is if you draw a hand with Great Furnaces and even then all is not lost.

If you are relying on Grim Monolith / Metalworker, you are going to lose to yourself more than a couple of times during the lifespan of your deck. Not trying to hate on your opinion, but this is exactly how you should not build MUD.

4 and 5 mana are the sweet spots of legacy MUD. Dedicating slots to 6 mana cards needs to be done sparingly, and I'm not entirely sure if there is room for 7 mana cards at all except for Forgemaster tricks.

Increasing dependence on Grim Monolith and Metalworker is exactly what brings variation to the deck's mulligans. Decreasing dependence on Grim Monolith and Metalworker is what liberates this deck from the curse of losing to itself.

If you are overly relying on Metalworker and Grim Monolith, you become more and more like an SNT combo deck (requiring hand sculpting/stars to align) but only with less powerful plays. If I need the perfect combinations of threats, ramp and mana, I might as well just play a card that reads: you lose the game, instead of a lifelink/deathtouch craw wurm with summoning sickness. Even worst, you play craw wurms without Brainstorm and Ponder to sculpt your hand!

I'm fairly confident that cards like Karn Liberated and All is Dust are NOT the right way to build MUD, and will by default lead to suboptimal builds. Hell, even Wurmcoil Engine is on my chopping block (sideboard card perhaps).

Would you mind posting a list? I've been playing the Faithless Looting/Gamble/Welder list, and I was pretty interested in your post. You're correct about Karn and All is Dust, they're way above the curse, and are, very often, dead draws. But Wurmcoil has been all-star for me.

Undomian
05-20-2012, 01:18 AM
I'm fairly confident that cards like Karn Liberated and All is Dust are NOT the right way to build MUD, and will by default lead to suboptimal builds. Hell, even Wurmcoil Engine is on my chopping block (sideboard card perhaps).

I completely agree with this. I ended up cutting a Wurmcoil Engine for a Batterskull in my build awhile ago, and while the Batterskull is still in the list, I've cut the rest of the Engines. They're great against black decks and against red decks (if resolved in a timely fashion), but the times that I've looked at them wishing they were another Lodestone Golem far outnumber the times that they've won me a game singlehandedly.

dillonkbase
05-20-2012, 01:23 AM
Would you mind posting a list? I've been playing the Faithless Looting/Gamble/Welder list, and I was pretty interested in your post. You're correct about Karn and All is Dust, they're way above the curse, and are, very often, dead draws. But Wurmcoil has been all-star for me.

I think that one or two six drops are worth while, both hellkite and the wurm are very powerful, but the strength of the deck is really in dropping 4 drops turn 2, lodestone golem, meta morph, and some other beater at 3 or 4 mana would be ideal. I might try su chi soon, its a good beater and ramps with welder into other 4 drops, making it a good replacement for metalworker. A 4/4 is pretty good in a world of delvers and bolts.


bonus: if it dies in combat and you have a hellkite, it can pay for that too.

dbl bonus: or untap the monolith you used to cast it.

bruizar
05-20-2012, 06:35 AM
@Vandalize:
I'm afraid I have to keep my list secret until the next big tournament. I will post it once I get the time to play with it in a couple of tournaments.

@Undomian:
You share a similar view as I do. Your post reflects how I think about the deck.

On the topic of Wurmcoil Engine. It is sweet with Goblin Welder, yes, and it hoses aggro hard if you shut down plowshares. It's even pretty hot if you sack it for Forgemaster. The problem is that it doesn't solve Knight of the Reliquary because it will just grab a maze of ith, stall the game and flood the board with more and more threats because they run more creatures than we do (mostly because of GSZ). When they play flying creatures it gets worse. To be honest, I'm really only interested in beating maverick, because I beat everything else already.

So what are the options...

I like Triskelavus as a Forgemaster target. It allows me to pick off Thalia, Mindcensor, that new fight-creature, spider rider, scryb ranger, Moms, Hierarchs, dryad arbor while blocking Knight of the Reliquary and still shooting for 1 every turn. Those 1/1's are pesky because they simply chump your dudes with it while KotR attacks for 8 or more easily, forcing you into a stall which you will ultimately lose against Maverick. In trying to beat Maverick, I could side in a bunch of Duplicants, as they are far better than Wurmcoil Engine in that matchup It is an immediate solution to KotR and better with Goblin Welder. It also totally ignores Maze of Ith. When you duplicant an 6/6 Knight, you can use that body to kill another creature. That means Duplicant will most likely be a 2 for 1. When Duplicant eats a plowshares, he has already done his job and it will still be a 2 for 1. Duplicant makes your deck more resistant to Swords to Plowshares. Wurmcoil Engine provides 2 death touch creatures which is usually also a 2 for 1, unless it eats a Plowshares and you find out you spent 6 mana versus your opponent's 1 mana to deal with it. Don't get me wrong, I like Wurmcoil Engine. He's very beasty, but since he doesn't have shroud or haste he's way too vulnerable, even against aggro decks which he is supposed to hose. Still, you don't want Duplicant to be your only threat when Maverick is beating you with a noble hierarch and a thalia. 6 mana for a 2/1 is just.. bad. Don't forget that hierarch+thalia kill Lodestone Golem.

Back on the topic of Forgemastery, Blightsteel Colossus too, just gets untapped against a good Maverick player.

Triskelavus, like many artifacts, is nice with Welder too. I could also go for Spine of Ish-Sah, but that card doesn't guarantee a win against Maverick, and is a 7 mana 1 for 1. With Forgemaster it's a 3 for 1... Only when you have access to Goblin Welder does that card become decent. So no Spine for me.

The problem I have with Phyrexian Metamorph is that he sucks against Knight of the Reliquary, which is one of the bigger problems for this deck. Though he's awesome if you land a Lodestone Golem. If everyone would be playing Tarmogoyf I would be the first person to run Phyrexian Metamorphs, but unfortunately, goyf is out of favor for most decks except for RUG, which I already beat. Another argument for Metamorph is that he hoses combo and control even harder when you land a Lodestone Golem. It gets out of hand quickly with so many sphere effects. One last important factor for Wurmcoil Engine. The Lifelink is very relevant to this deck. Ancient Tombs costs life and without Wurmcoil Engine, you are paying dearly for that mana.

I can't name a single creature that gives me as much trouble as Knight. Revoker doesn't help because fetch-lands still work. I wish there was something like Scavenging Ooze or Withered Wretch for artifacts. That would help the Maverick matchup really well.

Sorry for the scattered thoughts, this was more of a brainstorm than anything else. How do you guys fare against Maverick and what tools do you use to combat it?


2 Side topics:
Solem Simulacrum:
Even though he's frail as fuck, Solemn Simulacrum is one of the few value artifact creatures at 4 or less mana at our disposal. The ramp actually lifts some of the burden from Metalworker and Grim Monolith. 4 Mana is doable, when you play Solemn you ramp to 5 mana, which means you only need to drop 1 more land to curve out. It's pretty good with Forgemaster (Cast Solemn for 4 and curve into Forgemaster, then sack the Solemn to the Forgemaster for value) and obviously also very good with Goblin Welder. The biggest problem is the weak 2/2 it comes with. MUD needs to have a decent clock and playing on the defensive is a losing game for MUD. As of now, I wouldn't run him.

Rumored U/B cantrip death touch flyer:
UB, 1/1 flying death touch, when it comes into play draw a card. The colors are aweful for me, but this sounds similar to Solemn Simulacrum. Immediate value, super versatile and good with Goblin Welder. Wouldn't run this either due to color requirements. Perhaps some build that support Tezzeret Agent of Bolas could use this, but as of now I won't touch it.

bruizar
05-20-2012, 09:01 AM
From http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=643708



The top-8 perfectly shows the four pillars of the European metagame imo. The combo pillar mainly consists of Show and Tell and Storm variants anyways. The 5th pillar, nonexistant in this top-8, would be metagamed midrange/control decks such as Nic Fit and Loam.

2x RUG Tempo
2x UW(x) Blade
2x Combo (Storm and Show&Tell variants)
2x GW(x) Creature Decks (Maverick & Zoo)


Those are exactly the decks I'm testing against. Right now I win 3 out of 4 of these matchups with MUD. Seriously, we need something against Maverick.

dillonkbase
05-20-2012, 09:29 AM
I have been doing fine against maverick, 4 cursed totems, 2 crucible of world, 4 wasteland, and 4 chalice, and 4 tanglewire, has been enough hate.

The totems are better in builds that do not play forgemasters, workers, or welders...but they do solve knight, and they shutdown all the little engines that makes mavericks creatures anything better than grizzly bears.

bruizar
05-20-2012, 04:58 PM
Even though at first I thought that 4 Cursed Totem is overkill, that may be the right call for my sideboard. Particularly because it disables Qasali Pridemage. I'll test that out.

(nameless one)
05-21-2012, 04:02 PM
Hello I'm back!

I read through the replies and here's what I can tell:

I have started crafting a list with Chalice and Goblin Welder (with Cavern of Souls) and here's how it's going:

It's not running Faithless Looting and SDT. I'm more concentrated now on doing midrange lockdown rather than going comboesque.

Without Faithless Looting, I have decided to run less Welder. Right now I am running 3 since its only good mid to late game.

I have reduced the number of Petals but I am still undecided with that since I still want to use Reforge the Soul (and Scroll Rack).

My numbers are still uncertain and hopefully I get a relegation before an upcoming Mox Pearl tournament around here (in two weeks)

As for Maverick, I find that abusing Tangle Wire against them helps. I have won uphill battles with it (though with the help of Metamorph copying them).

dillonkbase
05-22-2012, 04:13 AM
I went 3-1 at my LGS tonight, Beat RUG, Zoo/Maverick hybrid, Lost to UW miracle/planeswalker control, and beat Bant aggro.

The list I played seemed good, the mana was pretty smooth and I normally had something to do turn one.


4 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 taurean mauler
4 su-chi
1 Karn, Silver Golem
3 goblin welder
4 chalice of the void
4 tangle wire
4 lodestone golem
2 wurmcoil engine
2 reforge the soul
4 Grim Monolith
2 crucible of worlds
3 mox diamond
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 wasteland
4 cavern of souls
3 mountain
1 great furnace
1 crystal vein

SB
4 leyline of the void
1 helm of obedience
4 cursed totem
4 thorn of amethyst
2 duplicant

Props: Su-chi not dying to lightning bolt, and untapping monoliths.

Slops- reforge the soul flipping an entreat the angels for my opponent.

But seriously, mauler was cute with cavern, but any changeling could be as good. The mana curve was spot on.

noobslayer
05-29-2012, 10:53 PM
Thoughts against maverick:

Attacking their mana base requires a huge effort. Was their lands typically doesn't do a whole lot, and is pretty much off the table with KotR active for any dual lands. As for artifact options Sundering Titan is a huge overwhelming one. Getting the old 1-2 punch out of him isn't awful, as you still get both activations off of a Exile effect. Goblin Welder is super cute to this effect as it can protect titan well, get more out of its effect, and draw some fire off your beatstick for itself. Other recursion options like Buried Ruins are ok in their own right.

Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon are simply devastating. If you are going for Red as an option, and I am personally shifting my view to prefer it as well right now, these guys are a go to. I don't like to pussyfoot around with hate, and Sundering Titan and Moon effects, while not super synergystic, certainly hate harder than most other options available. Moon is alright because it's an enchantment and harder to remove in most instances. Magus gets in for beats, can be forced down with cavern, and to me also adds to incentive to add some equipment in the deck (I have been toying with batterskull for a long time and would not cut it from my list, as well as some of the swords) to make it and other low curve creatures more relevant.

Some of their creature options are downright terrifying. Adding Phyrexian Revoker into the mix can cause a number of issues for their board presence, and chalice cutting down some of their cheaper creature and spell options helps maintain a stranglehold. Tanglewire isn't that bad here, it hasn't struck me as downright amazing. It at worst can buy you a few draws, but Maverick has so many permanents that they are going to be able to outland drop you more often than not, so you really need to have a relevant way of using the virtual turns tanglewire buys you more so than ever in this match up.

This brings me back to my point in equipment: I think they are super good in the deck. Outside of forgemaster we don't have any awesome ways to really tutor for them, but sometimes they are worth tutuoring for. They make you go toe-to-toe with most of the creatures and really land in hard beats. Batterskull is frightening on its own, and strapped to literally anything in the deck makes them something that requires an answer in many instances. Many of the colors swords are viable too as they offer some useful options, and namely help add beef and dodge some removal (I wish there was a White/Green sword).

Phyrexian Metamorph is strong for the reasons that it instantly lets you match anything they have, as well as remove any legendary threat they have landed.

(nameless one)
05-31-2012, 10:25 AM
I haven't read a lot of the previous posts, but I wanted to bring this up:

My main concerns are the following:

1) Wastelands - How good are Wastelands in this deck. They will always be mana-producers first, disruption second (unlike Canadian variants). Its not like we can tutor for it (like Maverick) if we need to get rid of a problem land. How important are these in the deck. While the threat of Maze of Ith exists, another land has come to my attention to solve other things this deck faces: Cavern of Souls.

While a single Swords to Plowshares can ruin anyone's day, theres nothing devastating that having your threat FoWed after spending tons of resource for it (from using Monoliths to having your City of Traitors blown up).

The main dilemma is is it worth cutting Wastelands for Cavern of Souls in the deck that is tight in land-base that doesn't really have a reliable way to fetch its lands?

Doesn't Lodestone Golem do its job or is it good because the deck also runs Wasteland?

2) Chalice of the Void - In tandem with Cavern of Souls, you can actually run Goblin Welder alongside CotV. Its great and everything but from my previous build, what makes Welder so good was because I can run it alongside Faithless Looting. I also ran Sensei's Divining Top since Looting improved the quality of SDT in a deck that has minimal shuffling. The deck was way faster than other posted previous MUD builds and was more consistent (to my liking) since it had ways to dig for more threats and answers in general.

The dilemma of running Chalice of the Void is you lose that package. Welder is still stellar in the deck but it loses the ability to "cheat" artifacts onto the field. Yes you can still do Welder tricks but you lose the discard outlet to cheat artifacts onto the field faster.

My build posted on the second post not only played as a Forgemaster Combo and Metalworker mana-flood.dec, it also played as a pseudo-reanimator via Faithless Looting and Goblin Welder. It gave me tons of options to have my robots onto the field. While it lacked Chalice of the Void, it ran Tangle Wire and Lightning Greaves as protection. While those cannot be compared to CotV, they somehow did the job.

If Chalice of the Void were to run, the protection package is greatly upgraded. In return, you go back to the less consistent build that depended on its Topdeck as it has little to no deck manipulation. It will essentially be like a MUD Stompy build just like what Fropper used to top8 a 145man tournament.

I am not saying thats the wrong way to go, all I am saying is that the deck loses its explosiveness. The thing about the explosiveness is that you can blow out fair decks such as Maverick and Blade-variants just like that.

With CotV on the main, you gain your game with Canadian (which runs tons of 1cc spells) and a lot of combo decks. But this will make the deck slower, making it vulnerable to Maverick (which is a very resilient deck once it gets going) or Blade-variants (control decks tend to do that).

Though there are sideboard options to deal with Maverick and Blade-variants in doing so (such as Cursed Totem and Thorn of Amethyst), is it for the better to turn the deck into a midrange build or go for the more explosive combo-eque build?

noobslayer
05-31-2012, 09:54 PM
I thought a lot about that. It comes down to consistency. If you go with the explosive version yea you will roll some games you shouldn't have otherwise, but it is still relatively frail and exploitable. I think the better option is to dial it back. Let's face it. We can't abuse every bit of tempo possible like UGR. We don't have the tutor or super powerful utility options maverick enjoys. And we definitely don't just roll through most hate like Dredge seemingly does. What we do have is the ability to make other decks play the game to our pace. Especially anything that wants to play fast and establish some permanents. I think the best way we can evolve the deck is to wrap the control and prison elements around the combo shell with the most cost efficient acceleration package we can determine. Disrupt the early game with powerful permanent options, and when we get the opportunity combo out and go for it. At worst we still have a redundant disruption and fattie package.

I'm still not sold on where to go color wise, so we should probably develop all three splashes at the same time. Brown, Red, and Blue.

(nameless one)
06-01-2012, 06:55 AM
I believe if you want to go disruption>disruption>fattie, you'd want to go Mono-brown. Red splash adds utility to it in the form of Welder.


Blue is there for draw mostly though I don't think abusing Master Transmuter has been looked at.

GoldenCid
06-02-2012, 10:57 AM
As mentioned above i think that chalice of the void is pretty needed to back up our fatties...
Honestly is this deck competitive nowadays??

Undomian
06-04-2012, 11:24 AM
As mentioned above i think that chalice of the void is pretty needed to back up our fatties...
Honestly is this deck competitive nowadays??

A monobrown list just got second in yesterday's SCG event...

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=46654

GoldenCid
06-04-2012, 01:47 PM
A monobrown list just got second in yesterday's SCG event...

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=46654
yes but maybe this is an isolated event. Do you get what I mean?

Undomian
06-04-2012, 02:37 PM
yes but maybe this is an isolated event. Do you get what I mean?

Is the deck Tier 1? Probably not. I can't really remember a time when a Chalice Stompy deck (lumping us in with this generalization) could really be considered Tier 1, but that's more of a function of the archetype's philosophy. We exist to prey on the Tier 1 decks, not to become one. As such, while our deck might not place in every event, we do put up a decent showing (http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/metagame.php?format=Legacy&fecha=2012-5). Even limiting the sample size to just the SCG opens, you can see that we still show up in the money a nonzero amount of the time (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?t%5BT2%5D=3&deck_name%5B%5D=&event_ID=&feedin=&start_date=2012-03-18&end_date=2012-06-10&city=&state=&country=&start=&finish=&exp=&p_first=&p_last=&simple_card_name%5B1%5D=Metalworker&simple_card_name%5B2%5D=&simple_card_name%5B3%5D=&simple_card_name%5B4%5D=&simple_card_name%5B5%5D=&w_perc=0&g_perc=0&r_perc=0&b_perc=0&u_perc=0&a_perc=0&comparison%5B1%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B1%5D=1&card_name%5B1%5D=&comparison%5B2%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B2%5D=1&card_name%5B2%5D=&comparison%5B3%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B3%5D=1&card_name%5B3%5D=&comparison%5B4%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B4%5D=1&card_name%5B4%5D=&comparison%5B5%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B5%5D=1&card_name%5B5%5D=&sb_comparison%5B1%5D=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty%5B1%5D=1&sb_card_name%5B1%5D=&sb_comparison%5B2%5D=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty%5B2%5D=1&sb_card_name%5B2%5D=&card_not%5B1%5D=&card_not%5B2%5D=&card_not%5B3%5D=&card_not%5B4%5D=&card_not%5B5%5D=&order_1=date+desc&order_2=&limit=25&action=Show+Decks).

Fry
06-05-2012, 01:55 PM
Well I think that I did a pretty good job at the open (I'm Eric Fry) R1 I beat Counter Top, R2 I beat esperblade, R3 lost to burn(tombs are bad here!), R4 beat esperblade, R5 beat high tide in three games with 23 minutes left in round, R6 beat Dead Guy Ale, R7 I beat RUG, R8 I beat Gerry T playing Dredge, and R9 I drew with Joey who was playing Sneak and Show and we played a few games for fun and it was a pretty close match pre board, didn't bother siding.

Tacosnape
06-05-2012, 02:07 PM
Why does this deck not run Cavern of Souls?

Like, name Construct for uncounterable Metalworker/Forgemaster, or name whatever else you're about to hardcast? There's no drawback to the colorless aspect, and I think I'd take some uncounterability on the best 8 cards in my deck in exchange for running a couple less artifact lands.

dsck
06-05-2012, 02:18 PM
Why does this deck not run Cavern of Souls?

Like, name Construct for uncounterable Metalworker/Forgemaster, or name whatever else you're about to hardcast? There's no drawback to the colorless aspect, and I think I'd take some uncounterability on the best 8 cards in my deck in exchange for running a couple less artifact lands.

Almost everything is either golem or construct. I lately found out Sundering Titan is a golem :eek:

Undomian
06-05-2012, 02:31 PM
Why does this deck not run Cavern of Souls?

Like, name Construct for uncounterable Metalworker/Forgemaster, or name whatever else you're about to hardcast? There's no drawback to the colorless aspect, and I think I'd take some uncounterability on the best 8 cards in my deck in exchange for running a couple less artifact lands.

I run a few in my build... Putting a Welder through a Chalice can be gamebreaking.

(nameless one)
06-05-2012, 02:39 PM
Well I think that I did a pretty good job at the open (I'm Eric Fry) R1 I beat Counter Top, R2 I beat esperblade, R3 lost to burn(tombs are bad here!), R4 beat esperblade, R5 beat high tide in three games with 23 minutes left in round, R6 beat Dead Guy Ale, R7 I beat RUG, R8 I beat Gerry T playing Dredge, and R9 I drew with Joey who was playing Sneak and Show and we played a few games for fun and it was a pretty close match pre board, didn't bother siding.

Congrats on the finish. It's a shame you had to face Canadian at the finals. That deck is hard to play against since they run a lot of permission.

Any advices and would be changes on your build?


Why does this deck not run Cavern of Souls?

Like, name Construct for uncounterable Metalworker/Forgemaster, or name whatever else you're about to hardcast? There's no drawback to the colorless aspect, and I think I'd take some uncounterability on the best 8 cards in my deck in exchange for running a couple less artifact lands.

You can also name Goblin and have Goblin Welder and Chalice on the same build.

Also from M13:


Rummaging Goblin 2R

Creature - Goblin Rogue

tap, discard a card: Draw a card

1/1

Possibly a Goblin package for cheat shenanigans. You can even use Goblin Matron to tutor one or the other.

Fry
06-07-2012, 04:53 PM
I honestly didn't think of the Cavern of Souls. Great call, that does make the welders viable with my build and I would cut the three Great Furnace and perhaps one Citadel for them so I could name Construct, Goblin, or Golem. The only down side that I see of doing this though is that the artifact count of the deck will have gone down, which can potentially make going of with Metalworker/Staff a little harder, which is not vital to the deck, so it seems like a fair trade to me. In that case I would likely cut out one of the three sundering titans, perhaps put the Hellkite in the side, and one other thing for three Welders. Just have to do some testing in the end I suppose ^_^

noobslayer
06-07-2012, 08:52 PM
I see a lot of lists that place well have staff of domination in it, but I've never been overly satisfied with it in the deck. I'd love to hear some of the thoughts from players who have used it in their lists to success and see what its merits are. As far as metalworker goes I think most people run 0, 3, 4. I think 3 is the correct way to go most of the time, especially since most lists aren't running greaves or anything to enable haste.

Tacosnape
06-08-2012, 10:39 AM
What lists don't run Greaves?

Every list should run Greaves now that Cavern of Souls exists. Catching your opponent tapped out can just result in their death, period. If they can't counter or remove a hasted Forgemaster, it's usually over.

Also, is one Hellkite enough? I'm just getting more into this deck and kind of find I like a pair. I find it to be a complete beast both against Maverick and RUG Delver, and if it gets a Greaves, it kind of singlehandedly goes all EDH on both of their faces, sweeping their board and eating life totals.

noobslayer
06-08-2012, 12:10 PM
I wouldn't run less than 2 Hellkites. That thing can be so boss it's not even funny. In the lists without forgemaster I would advocate running 3. My thing with greaves is it's amazing because it puts your acceleration on par with decks on lower curves, but you hate seeing multiples, and it doesn't change the board state at all on its own. I certainly wish we could do without them, and I've been trying to make my lists work without using greaves, but it feels like I'm playing metal goblins sometimes with the broken stuff tapping a turn earlier can do.

GoldenCid
06-08-2012, 09:54 PM
Has anybody considered Witchbane Orb to support your chalice and spheres against combo and burn?

Water_Wizard
06-09-2012, 04:24 AM
I've seen people sporting 1-of in the sideboard of the Forgemaster builds. It's also very popular in Classic builds.

The only problem is it doesn't really slow down TES/ANT, because they will fire off an Ad Nauseam, draw their deck, and find a way to bounce it (assuming you don't have them locked out with CotV). Agaisnt burn, CotV on 1 usually is enough to buy some time to play a Wurmcoil Engine.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=0&nhigh=0&dlow=0&mlow=0&ylow=0&dhigh=0&mhigh=0&yhigh=0&player=&dname=&format=Legacy&aname=&main=&nomain=&side=witchbane+orb&noside=&strict=on

noobslayer
06-09-2012, 01:41 PM
This is by the way the current list I will be testing:

blightsteel colossus: 1
sundering titan: 2
goblin welder: 4
kuldotha forgemaster: 4
lodestone golem: 4
metalworker: 4
wurmcoil engine: 3
(22)

reforge the soul: 1
(1)

blood moon: 1
(1)

mindslaver: 1
spine of ish sah: 1
staff of domination: 1
lightning greaves: 2
lotus petal: 2
mox opal: 1
grim monolith: 4
chalice of the void: 4
batterskull: 1
(17)

buried ruin: 1
darksteel citadel: 2
mountain: 1
ancient tomb: 4
city of traitors: 4
great furnace: 3
cavern of souls: 4
(19)

----

tormod's crypt: 3
trinisphere: 3
witchbane orb: 1
spellskite: 2
chaos warp: 1
stell hellkite: 2
blood moon: 2
wurmcoil engine: 1

I removed additional disruption elements such as tangle wire and trinisphere from the main to just apply redundant beats and a streamlined acceleration package that can ensure plays almost every turn on normal draws. I added a combo package in a few forms, so I'm trying to wrap the aggro semi-prison shell around a combo core to really take advantage of the explosiveness the deck can generate. Side board seems standard to compounding what the main deck is trying to do and offering enough broad utility to be relevant in their selection.

(nameless one)
06-09-2012, 07:00 PM
I just played the deck in a Mox Tournament. Unfortunately I didn't get there. It was a 2-3 drop for 6 rounds.

I will post a mini-tournament report later and answer a couple questions later after I get home.

My demise was essentially punting and I punted so bad, it was actually talked about by buddies.

movingtonewao
06-09-2012, 11:43 PM
Well I think that I did a pretty good job at the open (I'm Eric Fry) R1 I beat Counter Top, R2 I beat esperblade, R3 lost to burn(tombs are bad here!), R4 beat esperblade, R5 beat high tide in three games with 23 minutes left in round, R6 beat Dead Guy Ale, R7 I beat RUG, R8 I beat Gerry T playing Dredge, and R9 I drew with Joey who was playing Sneak and Show and we played a few games for fun and it was a pretty close match pre board, didn't bother siding.

it would be great if you could do up a mini-tournament report. I'm sure it would be inspiring for all budding MUD players :)

(nameless one)
06-10-2012, 02:24 AM
What lists don't run Greaves?

Every list should run Greaves now that Cavern of Souls exists. Catching your opponent tapped out can just result in their death, period. If they can't counter or remove a hasted Forgemaster, it's usually over.

Also, is one Hellkite enough? I'm just getting more into this deck and kind of find I like a pair. I find it to be a complete beast both against Maverick and RUG Delver, and if it gets a Greaves, it kind of singlehandedly goes all EDH on both of their faces, sweeping their board and eating life totals.

Within the week, on my testing I had removed it and put it back. Hasted anything on the deck is too good. The shroud is just a bonus LOL.


I wouldn't run less than 2 Hellkites. That thing can be so boss it's not even funny. In the lists without forgemaster I would advocate running 3. My thing with greaves is it's amazing because it puts your acceleration on par with decks on lower curves, but you hate seeing multiples, and it doesn't change the board state at all on its own. I certainly wish we could do without them, and I've been trying to make my lists work without using greaves, but it feels like I'm playing metal goblins sometimes with the broken stuff tapping a turn earlier can do.

Right before the tournament I read this and I thought it was a sign. I switched my last undecided slot (from Batterskull) to Hellkite and it has actually won me games.

Thank you for giving me a sign.


Has anybody considered Witchbane Orb to support your chalice and spheres against combo and burn?

I guess it's just a metacall.


As for the tournament, here's what I submitted for a decklist:

Michael Bay Presents:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Great Furnace
2 Mountain

4 Goblin Welder
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Sundering Titan
1 Steel Hellkite

4 Grim Monolith
4 Lotus Petal
3 Tangle Wire
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Mox Opal
2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Faithless Looting

SB:*
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ratchet Bomb

Like what I said, I checked the thread before the tournament and ended up switching a miser Batterskull into Hellkite.

Rd1: Fauna Maverick (with Pocari79 here on the Source)

Game one: Turn one Welder into a turn two Faithless Looting welding back Sundering Titan and doing Welder tricks quickly ended game one.

Sideboard: -3 Looting, -2 Top, -1 Welder, -1 Metalworker, +3 Revoker, +4 Chalice

Game two: I go for a Grim Monolith turn one (hoping into an early Forgemaster). On turn two, I draw Chalice and have it on one. Apparently he was holding multiple Swords to Plowshares and a Path to Exile. Chalice ended up attracting Qasali Pridemage but it was too late as by the time he was able to cast the removal spells, I was just dropping robots left and right.

Later on he asked me if I go on the Source. When I said yes, he goes "your (nameless one)!". I was wearing a shirt that says "Keep Calm and Brainstorm". That, the deck and telling him where I from connected all the dots. We talked about other tournaments within the greater Toronto area and stuff. Looking forward to see him again at future tournaments within the area.

Also, there was comotion around because one of the Dredge players hardcasted a Dread Return (achievement unlocked)

1-0 (2-0)

Rd2: Sneak/Show (with Chad)

Game one: I start with a turn one Welder. He goes for an early Show and Tell. He drops Emrakul while I drop Forgemaster. He reads the card. Next turn, I activate it and tutor for Metamorph to Legendary kill Emrakul. I resolve multiple Lodestone and weld in Metamorph copying Lodestone. He kept Pondering and Preordaining and eventually scooped

Sideboard: same with Maverick above

Game two: I first slow him down with Tangle Wires and Wastelands. I casted a Chalice at one but it attracted a Force. I eventually resolved a Welder via Cavern of Souls. Then I resolved Revoker naming Griselbrand. My reasoning was I've already wasted three of his Volcanic Island and he doesn't have other red sources on the field for Sneak Attack. Tangle Wire (with the help of Welder) also kept his land in check. On his turn, he stops a Lotus Petal and used it at the end of his turn to Intuition for Show and Tell. He then resolved S&T in his turn dropping Griselbrand while drop Hellkite. I resolve a Wurmcoil on my turn while he gets his own Wurmcoil with a second S&T (I guess he just drew it) while I only drop a land. He then swings with Griselbrand. At the end of his turn I weld his Wurmcoil for his Petal. On my turn, I swing both Wurmcoil and Hellkite, and destroyed his tokens and Petals with Hellkite. That eventually warranted a scoop shortly.

2-0 (4-0)

Rd3: Canadian with Kird Ape??? (Sunday Funday here on the Source)

Game one: I open with Petal and Sol land into a Metalworker. It gets burned but I already anticipated this. I go with a second Sol land into Lodestone Golem. He FoWs it. I was surprised as I thought he was playing Zoo. I resolve a Welder but it gets burned. I try to resolve Forgemaster but it gets FoWed. While a couple of my lands get Wastelanded. All this while I'm getting beats from Kird Ape and Nimble Mongoose. Tangle Wire actually slowed him down but I just can't draw lands/acceleration as I held multiple Wurmcoils.

Sideboard: -3 Looting, -3 Tangle Wire, - 2 SDT, -1 Welder, +4 Chalice, +3 3sphere, +2 Ratchet Bomb

Game 2: I mull a one lander into three Cavern Souls and robots. My hand was actually slow compared on what he has. I had all Caverns onto the field naming Goblin, Construct, and Golem. I resolve a Metalworker but it eats Ancient Grudge. So did Forgemaster. Welder and Lodestone Golem both eat Bolts. My Wurmcoil gets FoWed. Then I draw into two consecutive Metalworkers while he's got Mongoose and Goyf swinging at my face like they're on bath salt.

2-1 (4-2)

Rd4: Deadguy? (with Wilkin here on the Source)

Game one: A key Wasteland on his W/B land (it wasn't a Scrubland) quickly initiated a scoop on his side.

Sideboard: -3 Looting, -2 SDT, -1 Metamorph, +4 Chalice, +2 Ratchet Bomb

Game two: a turn one double Thoughtsieze with the help of Chrome Mox that removed acceleration from my hand followed by an early Liliana was too much.

Sideboard: -2 Bomb, -1 Metamorph, +3 Revoker

Game three: I mull my six land hand to six and kept a land light hand which turned out to be a mistake. He Thoughtsiezed my acceleration as I am stuck with robots and wasn't drawing any lands. I eventually resolved a Revoker naming Liliana but Dark Confidant, Bitterblossom and Liliana was just all too much for me. Revoker got Vindicated. If only that Revoker was a Ratchet bomb and made a faerie explosions.

2-2 (5-4)

Rd5: ???? With Canadian

Game one: He kept Pondering with only Mongoose on the field as his threat while I slow him down with Tangle Wire. His manabase can't recover off to game 2. This dude was really chatty to the point that he was pissing off the dude on my left side. For some reason, we took forever to play this and by the time we finish this game, there's only 8 minutes left.

Sideboard: -3 Looting, -3 Tangle Wire -2 SDT, -1 I can't remember, +4 Chalice, +3 Trinisphere, +2 Bomb

Game two: all I can say was I punted really good on this game. On a crucial turn (facing a Delver and a couple of Mongeese), I activate a Metalworker with Greaves and revealed 5 artifacts. I misplayed horribly when I go for Wurmcoil first and not 3sphere. It gets FoWed. Though 3sphere also gets FoWed. I tried welding in Wurmcoil but it gets Stifled. I scooped shortly after as I was facing lethal. One of the 'Vintage guys' pointed out that I have Metamorph in hand and enough mana to cast it on that same crazy Metalworker turn copying Welder, equip it with Greaves and weld Wurmcoil the second time. I guess the pressure got the best of me.

Game three: I punted even more again.

On a crucial turn (I was at three facing two 5/6 Goyfs and a 3/3 Scavenging Ooze), I resolve a Forgemaster and had it equiped with Greaves and enough artifacts for Forgemaster and having Greaves stay on the field. But I made a miscalculation. I was about to cheat in Hellkite when I realize my only untapped land wasn't a Sol Land (it was a Cavern). Then the same vintage guy above pointed out that I should have went for Wurmcoil and play defense.

He would have attacked with all three, I block with the Wurmcoil, gain 6 life (bring me back to 9), take 8 (back to one). He has no cards in his hand and Wurmcoil would have had shroud. I could have stayed on the game with that.

2-3 (6-6)

I got paired up round 6 but I just gave my opponent the 2-0 in exchange for Conjurer's Closet for EDH since there's no way I'll make top 8.


Overall the deck was just right. It created buzz from the Vintage regulars. I did punt a lot and had questionable hands that I kept. I guess the pressure and hunger (we didn't have breaks) got the best of me.

It was cool meeting Source people. Tangle Wire is awesome.

movingtonewao
06-10-2012, 03:50 AM
great report, would you have changed any in your 75 on hindsight?

btw, where did you get your "keep calm and brainstorm" shirt.

(nameless one)
06-10-2012, 09:49 AM
great report, would you have changed any in your 75 on hindsight?

btw, where did you get your "keep calm and brainstorm" shirt.

So far no changes on the 75, although I am already eyeing a couple cards on M13.

The combo game one into midrange lockdown into game two to catch my opponent's pants down did me awesome. I could have won games if I didn't punt. You know you misplayed really bad when everyone was talking on how you could have won.

My girlfriend brought me a 'shirt ticket' where you can get a customized shirt. That's what I got. I have a picture of it at the Keep calm and play magic thread under the community board here.

Any more comments/questions are welcomed

movingtonewao
06-10-2012, 10:25 AM
So far no changes on the 75, although I am already eyeing a couple cards on M13.



really? I'm not seeing anything other than rummaging goblin. And even that doesn't seem very good.

Wilkin
06-10-2012, 10:56 AM
So far no changes on the 75, although I am already eyeing a couple cards on M13.

The combo game one into midrange lockdown into game two to catch my opponent's pants down did me awesome. I could have won games if I didn't punt. You know you misplayed really bad when everyone was talking on how you could have won.

My girlfriend brought me a 'shirt ticket' where you can get a customized shirt. That's what I got. I have a picture of it at the Keep calm and play magic thread under the community board here.

Any more comments/questions are welcomed



Lol, you had to mention you wasted my Caves of Koilos in game 1...and yes I do play 4 Scrubland. :)

I like the list. It's so scary when I see the amount of mana acceleration of what you could cast. You ever thought about Blood moon in the board?

btw, game 3 you landed an early Chalice at 1. I kept a hand with Swords to plowshares, Thoughtseize and Disenchant. Lucky for me that you didn't see Bitterblossom in game 1 or 2 as Ratchet bomb is really annoying.

noobslayer
06-10-2012, 01:36 PM
I'm glad you listened about Steel Hellkite! I myself still run two, but you can see the two in my list currently are in the board. I like having extra bodies in my sideboard for a deck like this, but I really want to just take some time to play test and see which tutor targets are necessary, and which will be able to go altogether. So for the time I had to push him to my extra fifteen for testing. I also really miss having Phyrexian Metamorph from one day of play testing. That thing is just so good at what it does, I think it is likely one of the most underrated cards in the format.

(nameless one)
06-10-2012, 02:50 PM
really? I'm not seeing anything other than rummaging goblin. And even that doesn't seem very good.

The problem I had with siding in Looting/SDT package is that I lose the ability to filter through my library. Postboard, I am not going for speed but for the lock. I find that my opponents will side in artifact hate on games 2/3. Looting/SDT doesn't play along with Chalice at one. I need to save as much mana as I can to lay down my lock while trying to cheat in Robots in play. Rummaging Goblin somehow helps in this cause. It's possible that it's going to be a post board/transformational piece.


Lol, you had to mention you wasted my Caves of Koilos in game 1...and yes I do play 4 Scrubland. :)

I like the list. It's so scary when I see the amount of mana acceleration of what you could cast. You ever thought about Blood moon in the board?

btw, game 3 you landed an early Chalice at 1. I kept a hand with Swords to plowshares, Thoughtseize and Disenchant. Lucky for me that you didn't see Bitterblossom in game 1 or 2 as Ratchet bomb is really annoying.

I've been testing Blood Moon on the Tangle Wire slot (along with Trinisphere). I decided to go for the Tangle Wire over Blood Moon because there were a lot of talks about running mono-colored decks on the Teddy n Me Facebook page to get around people running Wasteland (as evident with showing of Combo Elves, High Tide, and lots of Burn). Trinisphere would have been nice there too but it goes against the speed plan of game 1. Also, I had to cut my additional land red sources for Cavern of Souls (I used Ghost Quarter as the utility land of choice before Cavern as it can act as a pseudo-fetchland for Mountains)

The dude who won the Mox was actually running Mono-red Burn.


I'm glad you listened about Steel Hellkite! I myself still run two, but you can see the two in my list currently are in the board. I like having extra bodies in my sideboard for a deck like this, but I really want to just take some time to play test and see which tutor targets are necessary, and which will be able to go altogether. So for the time I had to push him to my extra fifteen for testing. I also really miss having Phyrexian Metamorph from one day of play testing. That thing is just so good at what it does, I think it is likely one of the most underrated cards in the format.

On Metamorph: Especially in this deck, I think its underrated. He does everything from additional Lodestone Golems, snapcasting Sundering Titans/Tangle Wires to add Welder Utility and legendary kill problem legendary creatures.

I would also like to add that Reforge the Soul still deserves testing. I've tested it but i didn't have enough time to polish the list so I just went with my pre-AVR list and just revised my land base adding Cavern of Souls. This's deck's ability to lock opponents negates Reforge's drawback of having your opponent drawing seven cards.

Wilkin
06-10-2012, 04:13 PM
The problem I had with siding in Looting/SDT package is that I lose the ability to filter through my library. Postboard, I am not going for speed but for the lock. I find that my opponents will side in artifact hate on games 2/3. Looting/SDT doesn't play along with Chalice at one. I need to save as much mana as I can to lay down my lock while trying to cheat in Robots in play. Rummaging Goblin somehow helps in this cause. It's possible that it's going to be a post board/transformational piece.



I've been testing Blood Moon on the Tangle Wire slot (along with Trinisphere). I decided to go for the Tangle Wire over Blood Moon because there were a lot of talks about running mono-colored decks on the Teddy n Me Facebook page to get around people running Wasteland (as evident with showing of Combo Elves, High Tide, and lots of Burn). Trinisphere would have been nice there too but it goes against the speed plan of game 1. Also, I had to cut my additional land red sources for Cavern of Souls (I used Ghost Quarter as the utility land of choice before Cavern as it can act as a pseudo-fetchland for Mountains)

The dude who won the Mox was actually running Mono-red Burn.



On Metamorph: Especially in this deck, I think its underrated. He does everything from additional Lodestone Golems, snapcasting Sundering Titans/Tangle Wires to add Welder Utility and legendary kill problem legendary creatures.

I would also like to add that Reforge the Soul still deserves testing. I've tested it but i didn't have enough time to polish the list so I just went with my pre-AVR list and just revised my land base adding Cavern of Souls. This's deck's ability to lock opponents negates Reforge's drawback of having your opponent drawing seven cards.

Ah, trying to deal with the meta there. Yeah i had no clue about the meta there. Yep Burn won the whole thing, beating me in the final. A bit disappointed but the final match but I did manage to beat Sneak attack in the semis. Now that's a scary deck.

Yeah, i saw High tide and I saw 3 dredge decks (another deck Blood moon doesn't really do much against imo).

(nameless one)
06-11-2012, 09:31 AM
Ah, trying to deal with the meta there. Yeah i had no clue about the meta there. Yep Burn won the whole thing, beating me in the final. A bit disappointed but the final match but I did manage to beat Sneak attack in the semis. Now that's a scary deck.

Yeah, i saw High tide and I saw 3 dredge decks (another deck Blood moon doesn't really do much against imo).

I'm not sure if I've been testing with competent Dredge players but I think the deck actually has a positive matchup against Dredge, especially postboard. Chalice at one, 3sphere, Wasteland, Welder Tricks (to remove Bridge from Below and Tormod's Crypt), Ratchet Bomb/Steel Hellkite to deal with tokens.

I have to admit, this deck had a hard time against Canadian. Possibly against control as well if I go the slow-roll way.

noobslayer
06-12-2012, 10:50 PM
I have really been lagging on this haha. I wanted to write a new primer for the deck, but every time I open up my word doc I have like four new ideas I have been brainstorming, and I am always changing how I approach the deck the mentally.

Right now what I am noticing at least with my current build in testing is the blatant lack of a discard outlet. Right now welder is really acting as a way to recur threats that have hit the board once, not cheating them into play outright. While it's all good and well, I lose on some of the comboesque shenanigans welder could otherwise produce. Based on the fact that I run 4 chalice in the main (and I honestly feel like in the format right now, 4 chalice in the main should be mostly standard) I can't really opt for faithless looting, and Reforge the Soul is only a 1-of right now, so that clearly won't be very consistent.

I've been thinking of delving a little more into the actual red cards, and maybe testing RtS all the way up to a 3-of. Thoughts? Pound for pound I think it's the best draw-discard outlet we have access to, the only thing prohibitive is the double red that CoS does not produce for it. Also with the red splash one card I think we could legitimately test is Bosh. It's a colorless way to blow the shit out of certain problems. And can go the distance to fling some damage to the dome when we don't have the option of a favorable attack phase. It's been suggested before, but I will be honest when I say I don't think anyone actually gave it the time of day to really test properly.

(nameless one)
06-14-2012, 11:06 PM
I have really been lagging on this haha. I wanted to write a new primer for the deck, but every time I open up my word doc I have like four new ideas I have been brainstorming, and I am always changing how I approach the deck the mentally.

Right now what I am noticing at least with my current build in testing is the blatant lack of a discard outlet. Right now welder is really acting as a way to recur threats that have hit the board once, not cheating them into play outright. While it's all good and well, I lose on some of the comboesque shenanigans welder could otherwise produce. Based on the fact that I run 4 chalice in the main (and I honestly feel like in the format right now, 4 chalice in the main should be mostly standard) I can't really opt for faithless looting, and Reforge the Soul is only a 1-of right now, so that clearly won't be very consistent.

I've been thinking of delving a little more into the actual red cards, and maybe testing RtS all the way up to a 3-of. Thoughts? Pound for pound I think it's the best draw-discard outlet we have access to, the only thing prohibitive is the double red that CoS does not produce for it. Also with the red splash one card I think we could legitimately test is Bosh. It's a colorless way to blow the shit out of certain problems. And can go the distance to fling some damage to the dome when we don't have the option of a favorable attack phase. It's been suggested before, but I will be honest when I say I don't think anyone actually gave it the time of day to really test properly.

Is there anything you want to add on the primer? I am currently upgrading it. It would be a shame if the time I spent and spending to make (and I'm still updating) the primer would just be deleted.

As for discard, I do agree with your comment concerning the lack of discard. Masticores are great but once you are running low on cards, it's hard to keep it alive. And when it comes to Faithless Looting and Chalice, I believe that FLooting is still the best the deck could have but like what you said, it does not play well with Chalice. I actually chose Faithless Looting in the main over Chalice is because:

1) I find that no one counters Goblin Welder and StPs are usually saved for the actual robots (from Metalworker to Wurmcoil). I can utilize Welder more with Looting.

2) Everyone is saving their permission spell to Chalice.

That said, I will almost always board into Chalice over FLooting on game 2 (and 3 depending on the situation) because:

1) While it's certain that your opponent will board in artifact hate, they will think twice about boarding in graveyard hate too. With more hate sideboard pieces coming in, it dilutes their actual threats.

2) A lot of decks that run Swords to Plowshares will board in Path to Exile especially if they don't see Chalice in game one (and they also see Looting and Sensei's Divining Top). Chalice shines even more under this circumstances.


I do agree that Chalice should be on the main. My current build unfortunately cannot accommodate this although I have been working on something that can accommodate Chalice and Welder without losing Welder's conboesque capabilities.

Reforge the Soul, I have tested it for quite some time. I find that without a means of library manipulation, it's hard to hit the Miracle trigger. In the current manabase, it is hard to hardcast it as the double red is next to impossible to produce in this deck.

My current suggested solution for that is to change the whole land base like Dragon Stompy's configuration of running mountains (instead of utility lands). Also with that, the deck will be capable of running Moon effects.

You can also run Dangerous Wager as an alternative to Faithless Looting.

My other suggestion is splash green with red for Life from the Loam. The dredge on Loam helps dump robots in the yard while it helps you recycle Wastelands and City of Traitors. The problem I see with this is that it weakens the manabase even more.

Bosh is actually a decent idea. Definitely needs to be tested.

dillonkbase
06-15-2012, 08:47 AM
1) I find that no one counters Goblin Welder and StPs are usually saved for the actual robots (from Metalworker to Wurmcoil). I can utilize Welder more with Looting.

2) Everyone is saving their permission spell to Chalice.



I have serious questions about these two points. First if you resolve a welder you should be able to weld and disable stp.

But the second is more important, chalice will eat permission, always! So if it lands you get a ton of info. Further more if they spend all their counter magic on it and you land a lodestone, you are even better off.


As for some comments about making the build more comboesque, use caution. this deck should operate a little like long.combo, where each card is super powerful and can operate alone. You do not want to have to chain spells here, even over multiple turns, because we do not have the card selection to make that viable.-->It is this precise reason I have moved away from metalworker.

(nameless one)
06-15-2012, 06:28 PM
I have serious questions about these two points. First if you resolve a welder you should be able to weld and disable

Yes this is true, making StP somehow ineffective as your opponent will be forced to StP the Welder, leaving with less StP to deal with your robots.

Either way it's a win scenario


But the second is more important, chalice will eat permission, always! So if it lands you get a ton of info. Further more if they spend all their counter magic on it and you land a lodestone, you are even better off.

Yes this true.

I think the confusion is that siding in Chalice postboard vs. having it maindecked. Ultimately I believe it's a meta call, to keep your opponent guessing whether should he/she would have to deal with Chalice vs Welder.

Metalworkers and Robots are a must have to deal with. Giving them the benefit of guessing increases the chance of your Robots to survive. Worse case scenario, you resolve/have an active Chalice/Welder which will help negate whatever answer your opponent can provide (hence they count as both protection under the new primer)



As for some comments about making the build more comboesque, use caution. this deck should operate a little like long.combo, where each card is super powerful and can operate alone. You do not want to have to chain spells here, even over multiple turns, because we do not have the card selection to make that viable.-->It is this precise reason I have moved away from metalworker.

But doesn't Metalworker provide such broken openings if not answered?

I am currently aiming for a more comboesque build that has mid-range capabilities (in the form of having a means to soft-lock the board)

I'll add more once I get home.

dillonkbase
06-15-2012, 11:33 PM
Metalworker does nothing by itself, it can fuel a good hand, but it doesn't make one. I have made the arguments against metalworker in the past... And I admit it is powerful and can be an important player, but It is also a big liability.

Just to rephrase... Metalworker makes you run bad lands, think great furnace and dark steel citadel. It tempts you to run a higher mana curve, which without worker can clogg your hand up. And it take a long time to come online, making it and our game plan vulnerable... This is time we could be using our city of traitors and ancient tombs to maximize their advantage, playing threats on turn two instead of an engine.

The bottom line is that metalworker is swingy, it can win games it sticks around and you have a hand that can abuse it, but going in on a metalworker and having it removed can lead to a blowout. A final thought, terminus is insane against metalworker hands, they can set it up so that when you play a worker, they get a turn to put terminus on top, you then put another turn into dropping your hand and bang... A miracle.

(nameless one)
06-16-2012, 11:50 AM
Metalworker does nothing by itself, it can fuel a good hand, but it doesn't make one. I have made the arguments against metalworker in the past... And I admit it is powerful and can be an important player, but It is also a big liability.

Yes Metalworker is house if you have the right pieces but sucks late game. I know the other moniker of MUD is Metalworker but the deck shouldn't revolve around it, rather another broken tool the deck can utilize.

Goblin Welder sucks in the early game but it is still utilized.

Forgemaster sucks if you don't have artifacts on the field but it is still utilized.


Just to rephrase... Metalworker makes you run bad lands, think great furnace and dark steel citadel. It tempts you to run a higher mana curve, which without worker can clogg your hand up. And it take a long time to come online, making it and our game plan vulnerable... This is time we could be using our city of traitors and ancient tombs to maximize their advantage, playing threats on turn two instead of an engine.

My build runs minimal artifact lands (and I will be cutting the two Great Furnace depending on what M13/Return to Ravnica brings. I do hate it when people build their MUD around the higher curve.

That's the reason why I run a lot of 1/2 CC spells in my version.



The bottom line is that metalworker is swingy, it can win games it sticks around and you have a hand that can abuse it, but going in on a metalworker and having it removed can lead to a blowout. A final thought, terminus is insane against metalworker hands, they can set it up so that when you play a worker, they get a turn to put terminus on top, you then put another turn into dropping your hand and bang... A miracle.

Yes Metalworker is swingy and can be a blowout but I find that if you keep depending on it without any options, it will come back to bite you. That why the deck should also consider other options such as Sol-Lands + Monolith, Goblin Welder + enablers, and cheap artifacts + Forgemaster.

As for Terminus (or any Miracles), isn't Trinisphere + mana denial good? Maybe even Defense Grid + Tangle Wire.

On the deck as a whole:

Personally, I hate the fact that a lot of lists limit themselves when it comes to options. Just relying on Metalworker will not win you games. Having tons of singletons for Forgemaster makes the deck inconsistent. Relying on Welder for protection/cheat shenanigans wont always work. Chalice Stompy isn't always consistent. Why not mesh all these strategies since they all have a common list. It's bad enough postboard the deck dies in artifact hate, why limit the deck option?

noobslayer
06-17-2012, 11:18 AM
Personally, I hate the fact that a lot of lists limit themselves when it comes to options. Just relying on Metalworker will not win you games. Having tons of singletons for Forgemaster makes the deck inconsistent. Relying on Welder for protection/cheat shenanigans wont always work. Chalice Stompy isn't always consistent. Why not mesh all these strategies since they all have a common list. It's bad enough postboard the deck dies in artifact hate, why limit the deck option?

That was kind of my starting point. I looked at a bunch of the recent top sixteen lists and averaged out their card choices, and smoothed it by a few card slots based on preference and redundancy. I tried to get the best of most of the worlds, but to make room for it I had to cut back on some of the maindeck prison options and steel hellkite. In the end I want to find out what are the cards we really need in the main 60 to combat most of the format efficiently.

Ultimately I think we need to look at a few major points of aggression, and try to have all the decks "strategies" contribute something significant or at least worthwhile to it. We have prison, combo, and aggro all represented by the deck. If we admit that about anywhere from about 28-34 slots are realistically mana or other accelerants, then we know should really look at how to engineer roughly 30 slots of maindeck configuration. It's not a lot. But you look at something like UGR, which runs way less lands, but makes up the difference in those slots with a lot of filtering. We don't get that luxury. I think step one for all the approaches should be to optimize our mana base and try to cut it down to what it exactly needed, maybe plus 1.

Ttvetjanu
06-17-2012, 04:37 PM
Came 3rd at a 18 person GP trial-Ghent in Finland with the following list:

4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Wasteland
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Cavern of Souls

2x Crucible of Worlds
3x Lightning Greaves
4x Grim Monolith
2x Mox diamond
1x Lotus Petal
1x Mox Opal

4x Metalworker
4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
4x Wurmcoil Engine
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Trinisphere
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Blightsteel Colossus
1x Sundering titan
1x Platinum Emperion

SB:
1x Duplicant
1x Steel Hellkite
1x Staff of Domination
1x Trinishpere
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
3x Pithing Needle
3x Tormod's Crypt
1x Witchbane Orb
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Spellskite
1x Powder Keg

The metagame breakdown(apparently -1 deck.)
1x Sneak & Tell
1x Belcher
2x High tide (1 candelabra, 1 solidarity)
1x Reanimator
1x Naya Aggro (zoo)
1x Painter
2x UR delver
1x Maverick
1x MUD (me)
1x Stoneblade
1x BUG (tune up)

Really happy with the deck, only deck I lost to was POX, played against same deck again in the semifinals.

My matchups were;
UB Painter-stone;
Never saw either combo piece in game one. Maindeck ensnaring bridges did give me trouble. Sided in pithing needles which did disable his top. He eventually gave up as the game was locked up and he was stuck with a BOB and no way to manipulate his deck.

Belcher;
Games 1 & 2 both ended very fast with me dealing in the first game and he killing me on turn 1 in second game. Third game I mulligan to 3 (!!) and drop a turn 1 chalice with x=0. His face goes very gloomy as he ends up going to discard and dropping a petal. Turn 2 I drop land, his turn goes into discarding a LED. This goes on for a couple of turns until I draw a trinisphere to which he scoops.

Sneaky show;
Do not recall much except that first game ends with my only permanent being a blightsteel colossus and his board having a tapped emrakul, sneak attack and 4 lands. i.e. I won. Game 2 is much longer and more difficult; apparently he boarded out his FOWs which would otherwise have changed the game a lot. He managed to show and tell a Grieselbrand into play but I eventually got rid of it with spine of ish sah and pithing needle prevented further draws.

POX;
Game 1 I beat him into a pulp with hasted wurmcoils.
Games 2&3 he duresses, hymns etc. until he draws liliana and gains complete control.

Zoo;
I felt a bit sorry for the guy. First game he gets me to 2 and I surprise him with a hasted colossus. Game 2 I start with chalice x=1; he doesn't have a lot he can do after that.

TOP4

First game against POX, check previous matchup minus the first victory. Split 3rd spot.

Cavern of souls is the nuts in this deck. I recommend everyone trying a 4-of. With lightning greaves you can really surprise your opponent with a suddenly hasted (and always resolved) metalworker into hasted forgemaster into hasted colossus/sundering titan/steel hellkite.

(nameless one)
06-17-2012, 11:07 PM
That was kind of my starting point. I looked at a bunch of the recent top sixteen lists and averaged out their card choices, and smoothed it by a few card slots based on preference and redundancy. I tried to get the best of most of the worlds, but to make room for it I had to cut back on some of the maindeck prison options and steel hellkite. In the end I want to find out what are the cards we really need in the main 60 to combat most of the format efficiently.

Ultimately I think we need to look at a few major points of aggression, and try to have all the decks "strategies" contribute something significant or at least worthwhile to it. We have prison, combo, and aggro all represented by the deck. If we admit that about anywhere from about 28-34 slots are realistically mana or other accelerants, then we know should really look at how to engineer roughly 30 slots of maindeck configuration. It's not a lot. But you look at something like UGR, which runs way less lands, but makes up the difference in those slots with a lot of filtering. We don't get that luxury. I think step one for all the approaches should be to optimize our mana base and try to cut it down to what it exactly needed, maybe plus 1.

I wholeheartedly agree to this. As for my personal list, I am going for Combo-Aggro though my sideboard still sports the Aggro-Prison option. I would recommend not running Combo-Prison-Aggro all in main. This makes a lot of lists inconsistent (as evident in feature matches in SCG Opens)



Cavern of souls is the nuts in this deck. I recommend everyone trying a 4-of. With lightning greaves you can really surprise your opponent with a suddenly hasted (and always resolved) metalworker into hasted forgemaster into hasted colossus/sundering titan/steel hellkite.

Yes, it is the nuts as it can resolve threats that usually won't go through permission.

As for the Primer update, I added "Add Ons" and more to come. Anything you guys want to add is also welcomed. Bear with me as this will be a slow process.

noobslayer
06-18-2012, 12:28 AM
Yea I want to focus on Prison-Combo, and Aggro is just the result of having some creatures, instead of running more thick in threats to back up with bodies.

(nameless one)
06-18-2012, 01:45 AM
Yea I want to focus on Prison-Combo, and Aggro is just the result of having some creatures, instead of running more thick in threats to back up with bodies.

Care to elaborate on Prison-Combo?

The first thing that comes into my mind is Chalice/Trinisphere/Wasteland-Crucible/Lodestone Golem.

While there's nothing wrong with this, I still think its meta dependent. My version is geared for an unprepared meta but I believe as everyone around here picks up on it, I will be putting maindeck Chalices.

As for Crucible, I am still undecided whether I want it on the main.

noobslayer
06-18-2012, 09:03 PM
It's hard, cause there are so many cards I want to use, especially Blood Moon, and I can't figure out where to start the building the core. If I eschew Chalice of the Void it opens up the Looting+Top+Reforge package for some consistency and huge power plays. And that seems really... inviting to try out. If this deck didn't need so much mana XD. I would mostly consider dropping chalice to the board, because after looking at the top lists one thing I realized was that most of them didn't have chalice in the main, and their metagames weren't any less plagued of 0-2 cmc drops than ours are now right? So maybe there is something to having access to things like Flooting, Top, and Key game 1, and then having the option to hose the curve with CotV game 2. As far as my actual combo package to the deck I would say it's 4 Forgemaster, then 1 Spine, 1 Staff, 1 Blightsteel, 1 Sundering, and 1 Hellkite. I really also think there is some merit to having Spellskite as well, as he keeps so much stuff from being thrown at your guys if you aren't looking to run Chalice.

As far as wasteland crucible goes, I don't even feel inclined to run it. It's so slow, and costs you a lot of development you could use to actually win instead. Blood Moon does this but better I think.

Some potential tech I want to drop by the way: Null Brooch. Seems like it could be super randomly good.

(nameless one)
06-18-2012, 10:35 PM
FLooting and Top (in junction with Welders) do add consistency of the deck. That's why I have them on the main and my list is flexible enough to go Chalice Stompy way.

As for Reforge the Soul, I find that you'd want to run it with Chalice since it also gives gas to your opponent. Chalice stops a lot of cards that your opponent might have drawn. The problem with that is you'd need Top to set up Reforge, and Top doesn't normally play nice with Chalice.

Scroll Rack might be a great alternative but it is only half as helpful compared to Top because for the most part, you will have an empty hand.


As for Forgemaster, I don't really want to depend on it. The combo it provides is awesome but I'll stick with my list hat has minimal miser copies. Although, I do want to try Blightsteel again.

As for Spellskite, I used to run it on my list but eventually switched it to Tangle Wire. I guess it's just preference since you can use Tangle Wires aggressively.

Thats like my reasoning with Crucible. I can somehow control the board via Lodestones, Tangle Wire, post-board Chalice and 3sphere/Thorn of Amethyst. A single Wasteland activation can go far so the option of doing a Waste-lock seems too much work for me.

I tried Null Brooch (and Naked Singularity before. While they can have that synergy with Welder, it proved that it's Welder dependent. Null Brooch is too easy to play around.

Zirath
06-19-2012, 10:04 AM
Another report from me running MUD Stompy. This time I got first:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24049-1st-with-MUD-Mythic-Games-Elmira-NY

Don't have time at the moment but I have a long post in mind just generally about MUD and the variants.

noobslayer
06-20-2012, 11:20 AM
Brainstorming this morning yielded this untested hybrid, which kind of looks at the deck from a new direction. Maybe good, most likely not. The important thing was it got me thinking about new stuff.

1 chalice of the void
2 mox opal
1 mox diamond
1 phyrexian furnace
1 pithing needle
1 sensei's divining top
3 trinisphere
3 grim monolith
(10)

3 trinket mage
4 goblin welder
(7)

3 kuldotha forgemaster
1 blightsteel colossus
1 sundering titan
1 steel hellkite
4 lodestone golem
3 metalworker
(13)

4 faithless looting
1 reforge the soul
(5)

1 seat of the synod
1 great furnace
1 academy ruins
3 volcanic island
1 island
3 mountain
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
4 scalding tarn
1 wooded foothills
(22)

The list is super tight, but I wanted to fit in Voltaic Key, Lightning Greaves, and a Spine of Ish Shah but I just couldn't find the room. The general idea is that we use Chalice as sort of utility, because it's really most powerful on the play, and this way we can at least check removal or lock down their own tempo if need be. Giving us access to a few silver bullets in the main to help over all across general match ups. Trinket Mage finds it for you, as well as fixing mana problems despite being splashed for. Standard 3 target forge master package I like to go with. I think it gives me the best of everything I need. Mana base was weird because I immediately saw I would need more colored sources on the regular, but did not want to cut into the acceleration it provided me too hard, and this was the compromise I came up with.

So what I was trying to do was a few different things.
a) Have access to a draw engine, but not lose Chalice entirely.
b) Make better use of the lower end of the mana curve than the deck was using before.
c) Streamline the creature package.

After making the list I immediately wished that Trinket Mage gets reprinted onto a red body.

EDIT: Potential Sideboard

3 Chalice of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Powder Keg
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Spine of Ish Shah
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Blood Moon
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Duplicant

Double Edit: To make room in the main for the cards I wanted you could go -3 Trinisphere, + 1 Voltaic Key, +2 Lightning Greaves
And in the Board -1 Wurmcoil, -1 Duplicant, +2 Trinisphere, or cut another random singleton for the 3rd.

kingtk3
06-20-2012, 02:23 PM
I've been playing with the combo (kuldotha -> Mega Robots) and the mid-range aggro (metalworker + grim + dynamo + bombs like wurmcoil karn and hellikte):
I didn't like the first because it was too much dependent on kuldotha and with too many dead draws
The second worked fine but the deck could easily kill itself by drawing only mana (I once lost to 12 goblin guide attacks after landing a chalice at 1 who stopped his entire deck, I simply drew only mana)

Up till now the only card I really want to play is Chalice, so starting from the second build, I've changed the deck to be more aggressive in order to put a clock after some disruption. Here's the list:

MAIN
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 wasteland
4 cavern of souls
6 mountain

3 lotus petal
4 grim monolith

4 chalice of the void
3 trinisphere
4 lodestone golem

3 phyrexian metamorph
3 su-chi
2 batterskull
2 razormane masticore
2 steel hellkite
2 wurmcoil engine

3 goblin welder
3 reforge the soul

SIDE
3 cursed totem
2 duplicant
2 tormod's crypt
2 grafdigger's cage
3 ratchet bomb
3 phyrexian revoker

Taken at a torney it took first place but I'm sure there's still ample space for tuning.
As someone already wrote, Su-chi is good because it's a 4 mana threat outside lightbolt reach, which can do tricks with welder.
Razormane Masticore is against swarm deck and helps in decimating maverick; it's also synergic with welder and cursed totem.
Reforge the soul is the card I'm most unsure about, but I still haven't tested it quite well.

What are your thoughts?

deadad
06-20-2012, 09:40 PM
Hi!!
I've been playing with the combo version without welder used by Eric Fry but I tested it with one Mycosynth Golem... and it´s amazing! put 3 robots on field without pay any cost... I know that he is very expensive, but...
What do you think?

bartmanqc
06-20-2012, 10:14 PM
MAIN
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 wasteland
4 cavern of souls
6 mountain

3 lotus petal
4 grim monolith

4 chalice of the void
3 trinisphere
4 lodestone golem

3 phyrexian metamorph
3 su-chi
2 batterskull
2 razormane masticore
2 steel hellkite
2 wurmcoil engine

3 goblin welder
3 reforge the soul

SIDE
3 cursed totem
2 duplicant
2 tormod's crypt
2 grafdigger's cage
3 ratchet bomb
3 phyrexian revoker

Gratz for the finish! Im still not sure on the masticore.. But one thing is sure. I would kill myself if I was playing MUD without my personnal favorite Metalworker.... :)

(nameless one)
06-26-2012, 01:15 AM
I have updated the primer. It covers a lot more than the previous one. Just let me know what else is missing.

(nameless one)
06-27-2012, 08:27 AM
New toy from M13:

Trading Post??? (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=132767&d=1340783115)

It essentially reads:


Handelposten :4:

Artifact

:1:, tap, discard a card: Gain 4 life

:1:, tap, pay 1 life: Put a 0/1 Goat creature token onto the field

:1:, tap, sacrifice a creature: Return target artifact card from your graveyard to your hand

:1:, tap, sacrifice an artifact: Draw a card.

The discard clause helps Welder
The life gain clause helps Ancient Tomb
It can create blockers
You can sacrifice those tokens/late game Metalworkers/tapped Wurmcoils/Sundering Titans to recur other artifacts.
You can sacrifice used Monoliths/dying Tangle Wires/artifact lands to draw cards.

I love it

Zirath
06-27-2012, 10:37 AM
I have updated the primer. It covers a lot more than the previous one. Just let me know what else is missing.

Not something missing, but you can throw up my tournament reports. I have some discussion about proper MUD play in both.

vintersorg
07-02-2012, 10:22 PM
Hello all, im playing with this deck a couple of months ago and i'm making some changes, but i have some doubts, if you could help me, ( i play with welder build)

1) Welder is very difficult to keep, it's get countered or get some removal right in the moment it hits the field, so i was thinking to use some cavern of souls to help welder and other robots (golem/ construct), cavern with welder help me using chalice of the void in the main deck , but it screw with faithless looting, so my doubt: welder is worth in this case? without looting its speed is down a lot, also i use forgemaster in the same deck (3), i read some plp don't use welder and forgemaster in the same deck.

2) In the looting's space i was thinking about this new card in m13, trading post..the first and last two abilities are awesome for mud, and 4 mana is cheap enough , what do you guys think?

(nameless one)
07-02-2012, 10:41 PM
Not something missing, but you can throw up my tournament reports. I have some discussion about proper MUD play in both.

Added and thank you for your contribution.


Hello all, im playing with this deck a couple of months ago and i'm making some changes, but i have some doubts, if you could help me, ( i play with welder build)

1) Welder is very difficult to keep, it's get countered or get some removal right in the moment it hits the field, so i was thinking to use some cavern of souls to help welder and other robots (golem/ construct), cavern with welder help me using chalice of the void in the main deck , but it screw with faithless looting, so my doubt: welder is worth in this case? without looting its speed is down a lot, also i use forgemaster in the same deck (3), i read some plp don't use welder and forgemaster in the same deck.

Yes, Welder is very difficult to keep. That's why you shouldn't rely on Welder all by itself. Metalworker also exists in the deck and sometimes Forgemaster. If they remove Welder, it's less removal/counter for your other robots. If they remove your Metalworker, hope and pray that they do not have a fast clock and start laying down acceleration for your Robots.

I personally do not use Chalice on the main. Instead, I try to go for the combo-strategy game one (as evident on the Looting and SDT on the main). Postboard, I try to catch my opponent's pants down with Chalice along with Trinisphere (siding out Looting and SDT) and try to go for the Midrange-lockdown game.


Of course, it's a metagame call. But if you have Chalice on the main, I don't think Looting will be helpful to you.


2) In the looting's space i was thinking about this new card in m13, trading post..the first and last two abilities are awesome for mud, and 4 mana is cheap enough , what do you guys think?

I think its good in the Stompy builds (maindeck Chalice and 3Sphere) that still tries to use Welder as protection (with the help of Cavern of Souls). Go for the lock with early Chalice + 3sphere + Lodestone then try to puke your hand out with Metalworker or use Trading Post to feed Welder, replenish life lost from Ancient Tomb, create Goat tokens to chump block creatures that get through the early lock or recycle used Grim Monoliths/hellbent Metalworkers/multiple Mox Opals for card draws.

Personally, I'm considering Rummaging Goblin and more of a red splash. This means Chalice/Blood Moon /3sphere disruption with Rummaging Goblin + Welder being supported by Cavern of Souls and using Goblin Matron to tutor for either pieces or using postboard goblin pieces such as Goblin Sharpshooters and Tuktuk Scrappers (against Null Rods)

This is essentially the Space Goblin variant of the deck.

vintersorg
07-02-2012, 10:58 PM
Thanks for the response!, yes..looting and chalice aren't good..i'm using 4 chalice and 3 3sphere in sb, keep them there right?, i was thinking to use 3..4 phyrexian revoker too (sb), well, here's my list if you want to give a feedback i would be appreciated

Creatures:
4 goblin welder
4 metalworker
4 lodestone golem
3 wurmcoil engine
3 kuldotha forgemaster
1 steel hellkite
1 blightsteel colossus
1 myr battlesphere
1 sundering titan

Artifacts:
4 grim monolith
4 voltaic key
3 tangle wire
3 mox opal
1 Spine of Ish Sah

Sorcery:
3 faithless looting
1 reforge the soul

Lands:
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
4 great furnace
3 darksteel citadel
4 mountain

I'm thinking to use cavern of souls (3), and crucible of worlds (2) , -1 battlesphere +1sundering titan.
Rummaging Goblin is awesome!! never thought about using him, its worth the slots?

noobslayer
07-03-2012, 03:13 PM
Just saw that Trading Post card.... wow. That's like, half of the effects I had on my wish list for MUD decks. That's just so gravy, it adds a bunch of consistency and options for the deck, and actually let's it do something to cheat cards into the graveyard. And to boot it looks great for anyone still running Voltaic Key. It's hard to say though what slots it gets the bump in over, as 4 cc for a non-creature is not exactly the BEST for us, and certainly FLooting is really strong too (as is SDT).

Once again I want a red trinket mage XD

(nameless one)
07-03-2012, 07:02 PM
Thanks for the response!, yes..looting and chalice aren't good..i'm using 4 chalice and 3 3sphere in sb, keep them there right?, i was thinking to use 3..4 phyrexian revoker too (sb), well, here's my list if you want to give a feedback i would be appreciated

----list-----

I'm thinking to use cavern of souls (3), and crucible of worlds (2) , -1 battlesphere +1sundering titan.
Rummaging Goblin is awesome!! never thought about using him, its worth the slots?

Personally, I would use Cavern of Souls. It's great since one of the things I hate is having all your unrenewable resources only to be countered.

As for Titan, it's my favorite Forgemaster target as it can lock early games, though I understand that Blightsteel wins games. I seriously think its meta-call. Sundering Titan is great against a control meta where as Blightsteel is great in a combo meta when winning in earlier turns makes more sense without worrying if your opponent can answer it.


Just saw that Trading Post card.... wow. That's like, half of the effects I had on my wish list for MUD decks. That's just so gravy, it adds a bunch of consistency and options for the deck, and actually let's it do something to cheat cards into the graveyard. And to boot it looks great for anyone still running Voltaic Key. It's hard to say though what slots it gets the bump in over, as 4 cc for a non-creature is not exactly the BEST for us, and certainly FLooting is really strong too (as is SDT).

Once again I want a red trinket mage XD

I think Trading Post will/can shine in a build similar to Zirath's.

As for wants, a red artifact creature tutor in general would be sweet. We'll see what the Izzet guild has in store for us.

Zirath
07-03-2012, 07:31 PM
I think Trading Post will/can shine in a build similar to Zirath's.

Trading Post suffers from the Staff of Dominion issue; very cute card, great ways of making combinations, overall not good enough for a non-combo build. It can definitely be used, but I wouldn't.

noobslayer
07-03-2012, 08:00 PM
Trading Post suffers from the Staff of Dominion issue; very cute card, great ways of making combinations, overall not good enough for a non-combo build. It can definitely be used, but I wouldn't.

I agree that for mono-brown it's REALLY sub par, and really only displays its full potential with an active welder. The big difference between this and SoD, is you would probably run this as a 3 or 4-of, and not a 1-of. It should have been a legendary land or something. Making it an artifact makes little to no sense.

vintersorg
07-03-2012, 08:35 PM
Sundering titan is awesome , because people actually don't want to take them off the battlefield, anyway, i'm trying to use 2 trading post to see the results, the sinergy between trading post and welder are pretty awesome (and the deck as a whole too), maybe i will take one reforge the soul out and don't know... i really like tangle wire but i'm seriously thinking taking them off :\ but i don't know for quite sure... another think i read here somewhere but dunno if that was discussed, smokestack + goblin welder is very nice, you will have a huge advantage from your opponent, but i think i'm going more to stax than mud, and i prefer mud hehe, i was just wandering..there are some incredible lock cards like nether void that aren't seeing builds in this deck, i just saw one guy here with that black 'kinda stax' build.

noobslayer
07-04-2012, 12:27 AM
This seems like an alright starting point:

4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
2 darksteel citadel
3 buried ruins
4 cavern of souls
3 great furnace
(20)

4 grim monolith
1 mox opal
2 lotus petal
(7)

4 goblin welder
(4)

4 metalworker
4 kuldotha forgemaster
4 lodestone golem
3 wurmcoil engine
1 steel hellkite
1 sundering titan
1 blightsteel colossus
(18)

3 trading post
4 chalice of the void
3 trinisphere
1 spine of ish shah
(11)

This is the chalice build. The only red spells are welder, so the mana base is the way it is to account for that. The list does not sport Voltaic Key, so truly broken shenanigans with Trading Post aren't available.

vintersorg
07-06-2012, 08:15 AM
I had and extremely bat match yesterday against a RUG Delver, i played 6 times and just won twice, i did not use my sb because he was without one so it's kinda rude imo, but anyway..it was hard to survive, how do you guys manage to defeat them?

(nameless one)
07-06-2012, 08:49 AM
Slow roll them and build up your lands/mana sources. Bait your Metalworkers and once you get Cavern of Souls, save it for Wurmcoil Engine.

Always try to resolve a Wurmcoil Engine. The life gain will help and the death touch can deal with their green creatures. The body isn't so bad as it is out of Bolt range and if they do manage to get rid of it, it replaces itself.

Ttvetjanu
07-19-2012, 05:47 PM
So, what do you guys think of Staff of Nin? I've also strongly considered the blue splash for thoughtcast since what this deck needs the most is draw.

I've been brainstorming quite a bit recently (3 days off sick, still 2 days to go) and I came up with this build:

4 Wasteland
4 Cavern of souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of traitors
4 Darksteel Citadel
2 Rishadan Port

1 Crucible of the worlds
2 Sphere of resistance (these could be thorns of amethyst, still undecided)
4 Chalice of the void
2 Sensei's Divining top ( could be thoughtcast, staff of Nin or trading post)
2 Lightning greaves (considering a 1/1 split with Thousand-Year Elixir)
1 Karn Liberated (could be sideboarded for a maindeck Spine of Ish Sah or an additional copy of sphere of resistance/thorn of amethyst)
2 Voltaic Key

4 Grim Monolith
3 Metalworker
2 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Diamond

4 Lodestone Golem
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan

SB:
1 Sphere of resistance
2 Thorn of amethyst
1 All is dust (changing this to scourglass, i think)
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Staff of domination
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Spine of Ish Sah
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Powder Keg
1 Steel Hellkite

Most current Tier 1 decks run on very low mana in general, hence I wanted to focus on sphere effects (I dont think trinisphere is that powerful long-term) and mana denial. SDT, staff of nin and trading post all allow more consistency (thoughtcast also does this but would require seat of synods instead of darksteel citadels). Chalice on 1 does not work very well with STD hence I'm strongly considering staffs. One card I also considered actually is Thalia, combined with lodestones it could be very powerful especially against decks like esper control and storm combo. I'm probably swapping the metamorph in the sideboard for a second crucible or a third revoker (wasteland is still scary as well as STD and deed).

I considered running thran dynamos but I feel that we're already kinda low on threats...

I've done like 20 goldfishes and it seems very strong, although perhaps not as explosive as my previous builds. I do like the possibility to lock out your opponent early.

Zirath
07-22-2012, 12:37 PM
Hi all, here's another win from me:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24280-Robots-take-down-Mythic-Games-again-%281st-Mythic-with-MUD%29&p=659891#post659891 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24280-Robots-take-down-Mythic-Games-again-%281st-Mythic-with-MUD%29&p=659891#post659891)

(nameless one)
07-22-2012, 03:10 PM
So, what do you guys think of Staff of Nin? I've also strongly considered the blue splash for thoughtcast since what this deck needs the most is draw.

Staff of Nin still needs to be tested. It's not only good for removal/reach, it's also great for that extra card draws. Although at 6 mana, you would rather be doing other things.

As for blue, it has deemed that it's not a shoe-in strategy in MUD. Rather, you need to build around it. Ali Aintrazi ran a blue version at the SCG open last year with okay success for reference.



Hi all, here's another win from me:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24280-Robots-take-down-Mythic-Games-again-%281st-Mythic-with-MUD%29&p=659891#post659891 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24280-Robots-take-down-Mythic-Games-again-%281st-Mythic-with-MUD%29&p=659891#post659891)

Fuck ya. You are convincing me more and more to switch to the Stompy builds.

As for the Stompy builds, one won a Grinder while another top-32ed. Both are Stompy builds. The format is slow right now. The Stompy builds has more game against Tempo decks, Permission control decks and combo deck's.

Welders are more for Black-based control and aggro. While I like the deck manipulation with Welder version, the Stompy builds seems more streamlined and user friendly.

Zirath
07-23-2012, 10:54 AM
Fuck ya. You are convincing me more and more to switch to the Stompy builds.

As for the Stompy builds, one won a Grinder while another top-32ed. Both are Stompy builds. The format is slow right now. The Stompy builds has more game against Tempo decks, Permission control decks and combo deck's.

Welders are more for Black-based control and aggro. While I like the deck manipulation with Welder version, the Stompy builds seems more streamlined and user friendly.

I do what I can.

I think technically those lists are not full Stompy lists or I guess it is more accurate to say there are two types of Colorless Stompy-style MUD decks. There is the Forgemaster build, which is Combo-Aggro, focusing on powering out a monster with light disruptive elements, and there is me and Fropper's version, which is Aggro-Control, focusing on heavy disruption through mana denial but happens to have combo-like hands. The majority of lists that perform well are the Forgemaster builds, which I still am not a fan of (I do have 4 Forgemaster just in case I feel I need to switch). Cutting Welder opens up Chalice and improves your mana. In a less interactive format, the Welder and Forgemaster lists are more successful but the Stompy build has a little more versatility. I would say that the current format has too many answers to Welder, which is generally a slow card. This is similar to the concept of Doomsday Storm decks: Sensei's Top is a slow card by nature because it requires set up. Welder has the same issue, you need to set it up for a turn before it really does anything powerful.

That being said, Welder is still very strong but I will keep running the aggressive mana denial plan. Rishadan Port has done tremendous work for me, I cannot even think to turn my back on it.

vintersorg
07-23-2012, 01:29 PM
Hello, how are your side boards? I'm running 4 chalice of the void + 3 trinisphere + 3 phyrexian revoker + 2 tormod's crypt, have 3 empty slots, was thinking about running something to destroy artifacts (i'm running the welder build) against Ux Blades. I would love using a set of rishadan port but i don't have enough slots because i'm running mountains, welder build is pretty awesome, and faithless looting is awesome for card advantage, but i don't know about the welder itself, very very very VERY fragile, i'm also using 3 forgemaster in md, any ideas?

(nameless one)
07-23-2012, 02:36 PM
Hello, how are your side boards? I'm running 4 chalice of the void + 3 trinisphere + 3 phyrexian revoker + 2 tormod's crypt, have 3 empty slots, was thinking about running something to destroy artifacts (i'm running the welder build) against Ux Blades. I would love using a set of rishadan port but i don't have enough slots because i'm running mountains, welder build is pretty awesome, and faithless looting is awesome for card advantage, but i don't know about the welder itself, very very very VERY fragile, i'm also using 3 forgemaster in md, any ideas?


My Sideboard is almost the same. I have Ratchet Bomb for the three slots. At worst, I find Welder to be removal fodder. Relying alone on Welder (+Looting) is flawed. You also have Metalworker to pump out artifacts.

I am currently experimenting on a 'Space Goblin' build. It runs Rummaging Goblin instead of Looting, as well as Goblin Matron to find Welder, Rummaging and a mini-goblin Toolbox (such as Tuktuk Scrapper and Goblin Sharpshooter). Since I am not running Looting, I can run Chalice of the Void (Cavern of Souls so Welder can get through). I might run Blood Moon, depending on how bad it will screw up Cavern of Souls.

vintersorg
07-26-2012, 09:51 PM
I made some changes in my main deck and finished my sideboard, here are my current list:

Artifacts
4 Grim monolith
3 Voltaic Key
3 Lightning Greaves
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Mox Opal

Creatures
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
4 Goblin Welder
3 Wurmcoil
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Steel hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Myr battlesphere

Sorcery
3 Faithless Looting

Lands
4 City of traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Darksteel Citadel
4 Great Furnace
2 Mountain

And My current Sideboard:

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Trinisphere
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Spellskite
1 Spine of Ish Sah

My changes were:
1) -1 mox opal, -1 spine of ish sah--> 2 Crucible of Worlds. Crucible is awesome, wasteland is a pain in the ass, having the ability to put lands from your grave is needed imo, and about the sinergy between city of traitors, i think i don't need to explain that :tongue:

2)Moved Spine to sb: I think Spine is a must, i was using it in md, and i won some games because of it, i have a friend who plays with re-animator and i won sometimes because i was destroying his lands every turn with spine (welder in bf) his full set of underground sea was in his greave lol

I really like my list, don't know if its good for a professional welder-mud build but i think its good :)

noobslayer
08-01-2012, 02:50 PM
Zirath's success with the mono brown lists is definitely turning my eyes towards that avenue. Red has some big bombs and power, definitely in the form of Welder. Problem is you become so inclined to add more to actually make Red worth running, such as things like Forgemaster and a target package.

I think in a larger meta the mono brown lists might be more viable at the moment. Welder folds to too much shit at the moment, and would become the better option if there were a meta shift that favored it. That and I think maindeck Revoker is the bees knees.

Zirath
08-01-2012, 05:38 PM
That and I think maindeck Revoker is the bees knees.

And then some.

Moving away from red opens up main deck Chalice, which I feel more and more is essential for success with MUD in this meta.

L10
08-02-2012, 11:35 AM
After reading Zirath's tournament reports and Fropper's old report, I am convinced that the German Variant (MUD Stompy) is the less explosive but more stable variant of MUD.


4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Steel Hellkite
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Platinum Emperion
2 Karn Liberated

4 Thran Dynamo
4 Grim Monolith
3 Metalworker
3 Voltaic Key

4 Chalice of the Void
1 All is Dust

3 Buried Ruin
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

SB: 3 Cursed Totem
SB: 4 Trinisphere
SB: 4 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 Karn Liberated
SB: 2 All is Dust
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds

This list looks really good. How does it feel to run both Voltaic Key and Chalice of the Void? Would you hold on Chalice of the Void in hope of finding Voltaic Key? I guess regardless of which one goes downs first, they are both essential 1-drops.

Also, Batterskull may be worth looking into. Not many creatures in the current meta can take him on (Tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary, Angels, and Batterskull). If the germ token dies, he can always be bounced and reused for 8 mana, same as to cast Emperion. I may replace Emperion for Batterskull, as Batterskull can proactively gain me some hp, even in the early games, while Emperion only ensures I do not lose any, until he dies. Attaching Batterskull to Steel Hellkite is not out of the question either, and can be a major bomb against the enemy.

But of course, this is all theory. I need to try it myself first. I am getting my cards within the next month, hopefully!

Zirath
08-02-2012, 11:58 AM
After reading Zirath's tournament reports and Fropper's old report, I am convinced that the German Variant (MUD Stompy) is the less explosive but more stable variant of MUD.



This list looks really good. How does it feel to run both Voltaic Key and Chalice of the Void? Would you hold on Chalice of the Void in hope of finding Voltaic Key? I guess regardless of which one goes downs first, they are both essential 1-drops.

Also, Batterskull may be worth looking into. Not many creatures in the current meta can take him on (Tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary, Angels, and Batterskull). If the germ token dies, he can always be bounced and reused for 8 mana, same as to cast Emperion. I may replace Emperion for Batterskull, as Batterskull can proactively gain me some hp, even in the early games, while Emperion only ensures I do not lose any, until he dies. Attaching Batterskull to Steel Hellkite is not out of the question either, and can be a major bomb against the enemy.

But of course, this is all theory. I need to try it myself first. I am getting my cards within the next month, hopefully!

Dead Voltaic Keys have only been a problem once, but that is because I kept a hand with triple Key on the draw then top decked Chalice, cast Chalice immediately for 1, then proceeded to draw Monolith. The urgency to cast Chalice heavily depends on the deck you are playing against.

I would not replace Platinum Emperion personally. He has been consistently way too good for me. Burn decks can beat Batterskull (Stoneblade has always had a weak Burn match up) and we are no exception with our excess of non-basics. Platinum Emperion also trumps decks like Dredge, Merfolk, Elves and Affinity in ways that Batterskull can't.

Mr. Ages
08-02-2012, 12:37 PM
Just got my last two Ports and the Dynamos to complete your build, Zirath. I'll be rocking it at the next Jupiter event.

Any slots that you would consider metagame slots (Main or Side)?

I've got more of a prison background and still operate with the motto, "don't give them an uninterrupted turn". With this build being more of an aggro deck, is it acceptable to keep hands that need to be set up for the first few turns?

T1: Tomb, Monolith
T2: Land, 6 Drop

or

T1: land
T2: land, monolith, worker
T3: Bomb


Probably depends on the opponent, etc.

Thanks for all your work on this. It's a great time to be a MUD pilot.

Zirath
08-02-2012, 09:48 PM
Just got my last two Ports and the Dynamos to complete your build, Zirath. I'll be rocking it at the next Jupiter event.

Any slots that you would consider metagame slots (Main or Side)?

I've got more of a prison background and still operate with the motto, "don't give them an uninterrupted turn". With this build being more of an aggro deck, is it acceptable to keep hands that need to be set up for the first few turns?

T1: Tomb, Monolith
T2: Land, 6 Drop

or

T1: land
T2: land, monolith, worker
T3: Bomb


Probably depends on the opponent, etc.

Thanks for all your work on this. It's a great time to be a MUD pilot.

It depends on the match up. Fast decks, you need to mulligan aggressively to a quick hand. Against slower decks, you can be patient. It takes some practice to get this deck to be consistent; it's very dependent on how you play it.

I'll also be at Jupiter in August. Hopefully I can play well and actually top 8 this time instead of punting.

Fropper
08-03-2012, 06:52 AM
I am runnign a list with Batterskulls these days, moving the revokers to sb (absolutely meta dependent!). Batterskulls are so great in the terminator matchup. And 5 Mana, even in this deck, are much easier to get to than 8.
here's my current list
http://deckbox.org/sets/190246

L10
08-03-2012, 12:49 PM
I am running a list with Batterskulls these days, moving the revokers to sb (absolutely meta dependent!). Batterskulls are so great in the terminator matchup. And 5 Mana, even in this deck, are much easier to get to than 8.
here's my current list
http://deckbox.org/sets/190246
How often do you use Dust Bowl? My MD is exactly like yours, except I have Mishra's Factory over Dust Bowl.


Platinum Emperion also trumps decks like Dredge, Merfolk, Elves and Affinity in ways that Batterskull can't.
That's a really interesting point. Though, I feel Batterskull would be better in the UW Miracle match-up, because you can bounce Batterskull. I think I will try Batterskull MD and Emperion SB, or vise-versa. Thanks for the insight!

Zirath
08-03-2012, 01:11 PM
That's a really interesting point. Though, I feel Batterskull would be better in the UW Miracle match-up, because you can bounce Batterskull. I think I will try Batterskull MD and Emperion SB, or vise-versa. Thanks for the insight!

I have thought about this as well as an additional method to combat Terminus. I don't have Batterskulls at my disposal at the moment but I have the potential to try it.

vintersorg
08-03-2012, 01:35 PM
I know some plp asked this but i never saw a good answer, so i'm asking: why there isn't a blue splash worth playing like red or mono-brown?. There are some amazing blue cards that give some awesome artifact support and good draws.
Thoughtcast, Brainstorm, Fabricate, with blue we can use Academy Ruins and 1 or 2 Master transmuter for cheating artifacts/protecting them, treasure mage if you need to tutor something (besides kuldotha, and it's cheaper). I love mono-brown and i run a welder build, but i would like to know if it's a good approach using blue, these cards i mentioned sounds good with artifacts

Zirath
08-03-2012, 01:58 PM
I know some plp asked this but i never saw a good answer, so i'm asking: why there isn't a blue splash worth playing like red or mono-brown?. There are some amazing blue cards that give some awesome artifact support and good draws.
Thoughtcast, Brainstorm, Fabricate, with blue we can use Academy Ruins and 1 or 2 Master transmuter for cheating artifacts/protecting them, treasure mage if you need to tutor something (besides kuldotha, and it's cheaper). I love mono-brown and i run a welder build, but i would like to know if it's a good approach using blue, these cards i mentioned sounds good with artifacts

The cards you are suggesting slow down MUD a lot. Brainstorm makes Chalice of the Void a bad decision; Chalice is quickly becoming a vital card in this deck.

Thoughtcast builds were tried last year; no one saw much success. MUD does not apply pressure the way Affinity does.

This might be doable in a pure Prison list. The deck would very different though; I cannot imagine you can actually run Metalworker.

Fropper
08-03-2012, 06:40 PM
Dust Bowl works really great for me. It's not uncommon, that in the lategame, I turn all my lands into wastelands with it. Factory is not bad by any means, especially with v.key but for me the bowl just does more, remember, that you can recycle city of traitor with it when playing another land (or dust bowl itself).

L10
08-03-2012, 06:53 PM
Sounds good to me. If you were to go for the mana denial strategy to the max, isn't Crucible of Worlds worth one slot in your SB? Maybe remove one Cursed Totem for Crucible of Worlds. I can imagine Crucible of Worlds and two Sundering Titans would ruin many triple colored decks.

Zirath
08-04-2012, 01:54 AM
Sounds good to me. If you were to go for the mana denial strategy to the max, isn't Crucible of Worlds worth one slot in your SB? Maybe remove one Cursed Totem for Crucible of Worlds. I can imagine Crucible of Worlds and two Sundering Titans would ruin many triple colored decks.

I greatly dislike Sundering Titan in my list; I have never found him to be useful. I crush the decks he seems to be good against.

Valtrix
08-04-2012, 03:40 AM
Staff of Nin still needs to be tested. It's not only good for removal/reach, it's also great for that extra card draws. Although at 6 mana, you would rather be doing other things.

If you really want card draw, Bottled Cloister seems like very reasonable draw in this deck and better than the Staff. You play no instants, so the only real drawback is losing your hand if the cloister gets destroyed. Generally this seems very easy to play around though since either 1) They will use their very sparse artifact hate on threats (Chalice, Hellkite, etc.) or 2) You can just empty your hand and then play this out to keep going.

Eye of Ugin might be another option, but I think it's worse than any of the other options, though if you have 7 mana open it's pretty sweet. Dysynergy with City of Traitors is definitely a detriment. Again though, probably not what the deck is looking for.

That said, there are a lot of powerful artifacts, so it's difficult to say if this is the type of effect the deck would be looking for. Honestly, if I wanted a resilient threat I'd probably opt for Batterskull, since it can be returned every turn.

GoldenCid
08-04-2012, 01:58 PM
I used to run Bottled Cloister + Ensnaring Bridge ;)
In that build i run the combo Metalworker + Staff of domination to draw tons of cards and generate tons of mana to cast emrakul and attack or cast Banefire for 20 and win. I was pretty good but risky at the same time as metioned above.

I'm considing running Staff x1 + Metalworker + Banefire x1 (no cloister) as a wincon nowadays.
We can tutor staff with Forgemaster and win if we have an active non-aswered worker on line!


Hi all, I took down Mythic again with MUD. I went to Jupiter the previous weekend and went 3-2 to take 12th. I could literally see my poor play in my losses after reflecting on the matches. This weekend I was a little more careful and it definitely paid off.

My list as usual:

4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Steel Hellkite
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Platinum Emperion
2 Karn Liberated

4 Thran Dynamo
4 Grim Monolith
3 Metalworker
3 Voltaic Key

4 Chalice of the Void
1 All is Dust

3 Buried Ruin
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

SB: 3 Cursed Totem
SB: 4 Trinisphere
SB: 4 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 Karn Liberated
SB: 2 All is Dust
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds



Congrats!!! My main question is how do you carry out with de dichotomy Key - Chalice.
Chalice @1 makes key just another worker fodder....

L10
08-04-2012, 07:51 PM
I played with Zirath's deck today and saw the importance of Platinum Emperion. He gives you so much virtual life, it is not even funny. One time, I had three Ancient Tombs out, and it would have easily killed me if I had Batterskull instead. Or at least, I would not have been able to dump my entire hand, and proceeded to kill my opponent's mana. Platinum Emperion was not hard to cast when I plan ahead.


Congrats!!! My main question is how do you carry out with de dichotomy Key - Chalice.
Chalice @1 makes key just another worker fodder....
Honestly, when I played his deck, it didn't bother me. Sometimes, I would hold off Chalice a turn or two depending on the matchup. Like against Burn, I would bring out Chalice ASAP. Against Goblins with Caverns, not so much. And sometimes, you'd get Key before Chalice. Key is so good in this deck, I am willing to take a gamble with Chalice.

GoldenCid
08-05-2012, 07:34 PM
Honestly, when I played his deck, it didn't bother me. Sometimes, I would hold off Chalice a turn or two depending on the matchup. Like against Burn, I would bring out Chalice ASAP. Against Goblins with Caverns, not so much. And sometimes, you'd get Key before Chalice. Key is so good in this deck, I am willing to take a gamble with Chalice.

Well...let's say that i am not a lucky man. Running chalice with key or welder leads me to draw key or welder after dropping chalice @1. Almost ina unvariable manner. I think that this is a matter of playstyle i guess.

I'm now running this list with nice results:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
2 [M12] Buried Ruin
1 [CHK] Hall of the Bandit Lord
4 [MR] Great Furnace

// Creatures
4 [UD] Metalworker
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
3 [SOM] Wurmcoil Engine
1 [SOM] Platinum Emperion
2 [SOM] Steel Hellkite
1 [SOM] Myr Battlesphere
4 [SOM] Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 [MBS] Blightsteel Colossus

// Spells
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
2 [SOM] Mox Opal
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [UL] Grim Monolith
2 [MR] Lightning Greaves
1 [ROE] All Is Dust
1 [CFX] Banefire
1 [FD] Staff of Domination

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 4 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 3 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 [MBS] Spine of Ish Sah

Some notes...

Buried Ruin is a real nice card since it allows us to get rid (up to some point) from discard or countermagic.
I've just begun to test Hall of the Bandit Lord, i think that giving haste to a monster could be so good and even game sometimes. Has anybody tested it yet??
Great Furnace is there to support Banefire. I'm not pretty sure if a set of it is justified, maybe 2 in exchange with Darksteel Citadel is ok.
Moreover Banefire tech could be not necesary i tested it a time ago and it was so good...maybe now that maverick is on scene Gaddock Teeg could be a problem in this point. What do you suggest for replacement??
THx!!

bruizar
08-06-2012, 05:55 AM
Well...let's say that i am not a lucky man. Running chalice with key or welder leads me to draw key or welder after dropping chalice @1. Almost ina unvariable manner. I think that this is a matter of playstyle i guess.

I'm now running this list with nice results:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
2 [M12] Buried Ruin
1 [CHK] Hall of the Bandit Lord
4 [MR] Great Furnace

// Creatures
4 [UD] Metalworker
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
3 [SOM] Wurmcoil Engine
1 [SOM] Platinum Emperion
2 [SOM] Steel Hellkite
1 [SOM] Myr Battlesphere
4 [SOM] Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 [MBS] Blightsteel Colossus

// Spells
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
2 [SOM] Mox Opal
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [UL] Grim Monolith
2 [MR] Lightning Greaves
1 [ROE] All Is Dust
1 [CFX] Banefire
1 [FD] Staff of Domination

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 4 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 3 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 [MBS] Spine of Ish Sah

Some notes...

Buried Ruin is a real nice card since it allows us to get rid (up to some point) from discard or countermagic.
I've just begun to test Hall of the Bandit Lord, i think that giving haste to a monster could be so good and even game sometimes. Has anybody tested it yet??
Great Furnace is there to support Banefire. I'm not pretty sure if a set of it is justified, maybe 2 in exchange with Darksteel Citadel is ok.
Moreover Banefire tech could be not necesary i tested it a time ago and it was so good...maybe now that maverick is on scene Gaddock Teeg could be a problem in this point. What do you suggest for replacement??
THx!!

Yes I have. Hall of the Bandit Lord is pretty awesome since it can give haste to a Metalworker or Forgemaster before it gets plowed, unlike equipment.

On Banefire: I Have no idea why you would want to go for Banefire when you could go for Bonfire of the Damned, which is a card I still need to test myself.

bruizar
08-06-2012, 06:26 AM
This is the list I'm currently testing. I have played a bunch of variations of this build, but the current one is my main focus:


2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Voltaic Key
3 Metalworker

4 Thran Dynamo
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lodestone Golem

3 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Godo, Bandit Warlord
2 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Moltensteel Dragon
4 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Karn Liberated

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
3 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
5 Mountain
1 Barbarian Ring
Bonfire of the Damned - Singlesided Wrath of God and burn at the same time. Goes well with all the mana artifacts in the deck.

Moltensteel Dragon - Still testing this. Phyrexian mana help keep the curve down, and it gives insane reach with lifelinkers and Bonfire of the Damned.

Cavern of Souls - Dodging FoW is important when you're paying 6 mana for a creature.

Godo, Bandit Warlord - Card is the real deal. I have extensively tested him and he is insane because he dodges Swords to Plowshares and does insane lifeswings (up to 28 life per hit). Reduces the curve because you run a split between Batterskull (5) and Godo (6). If you play red, always play Godo before Wurmcoil.

Thran Dynamo - Still not sure if this card is good enough. I think it should be replaced for something less mana intensive.

Zirath
08-06-2012, 11:14 AM
This is the list I'm currently testing. I have played a bunch of variations of this build, but the current one is my main focus:


2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Voltaic Key
3 Metalworker

4 Thran Dynamo
4 Grim Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lodestone Golem

3 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Godo, Bandit Warlord
2 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Moltensteel Dragon
4 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Karn Liberated

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
3 Cavern of Souls
3 City of Traitors
5 Mountain
1 Barbarian Ring
Bonfire of the Damned - Singlesided Wrath of God and burn at the same time. Goes well with all the mana artifacts in the deck.

Moltensteel Dragon - Still testing this. Phyrexian mana help keep the curve down, and it gives insane reach with lifelinkers and Bonfire of the Damned.

Cavern of Souls - Dodging FoW is important when you're paying 6 mana for a creature.

Godo, Bandit Warlord - Card is the real deal. I have extensively tested him and he is insane because he dodges Swords to Plowshares and does insane lifeswings (up to 28 life per hit). Reduces the curve because you run a split between Batterskull (5) and Godo (6). If you play red, always play Godo before Wurmcoil.

Thran Dynamo - Still not sure if this card is good enough. I think it should be replaced for something less mana intensive.

This is a very interesting build. I may give it a whirl if I can grab some Bonfires. I think it's a very creative variant on the MUD Stompy list that Fropper and I have been piloting.

bruizar
08-07-2012, 02:37 AM
In testing, the Moltensteel Dragons were freaking insane. The reach they provide is enormous and the fact that you can actually CAST them for 4 is a blessing. It survives bolts and delvers and it has evasion. In testing, I already had one game against Maverick where 1 Moltensteel Dragon did 20 damage on its own (Bonfire his mana creatures, then follow up with Moltensteel Dragon to clean up). Moltensteel Dragon is often a 1 or 2 turn clock at most.

I have been testing Godo for the last 8 months and I know that he's the single best creature that MUD can run. In my current build, I now run 0 Wurmcoil Engines, because the card simply sucks. If you want to win with MUD you need to proof of Swords to Plowshares and counterspells. Godo does insane damage, no really.. Turn 1 Grim Monolith into turn 2 Godo is a beating that not many decks can handle. Godo totally trumps control as double plowshares or Terminus is actually bad against Godo. He's also a rockstar against Jace and outmuscles opposing Stoneforge Mystics.

I'm of the opinion that the biggest problem of MUD is that people try to run high CC spells because they think they can get away with it, than they get their sol lands wasted or acceleration countered and are unable to get their bombs in play. The cards I mentioned before fix this problem. The above list has already evolved quiet a bit but I can tell you that Bonfire, Moltensteel Dragon and Godo are nothing short of amazing thus far. I still need to test whether or not Rolling Earthquake or Bonfire of the Damned is better, and I also need to test whether or not I might just want to run both. Without Miracle, I have consistently cast Bonfire for X=3/X=4 last night.

L10
08-07-2012, 10:41 AM
I have been testing Godo for the last 8 months and I know that he's the single best creature that MUD can run... If you want to win with MUD you need to proof of Swords to Plowshares and counterspells... Godo totally trumps control as double plowshares or Terminus is actually bad against Godo.
Please explain. How does Godo evade StP without SoLS or SoWP? CoS can make Godo uncounterable, but CoS can make any of our threats uncounterable. And I do not see how Godo trumps Terminus.

What do you think about Blood Moon?

Philipp2293
08-07-2012, 12:43 PM
If your opponent plows your Godo, you still have the Skull + Germ token which he fetched. If he plows the Germ too, he has used 2 StP and you can still bounce and replay Skull. Same with Terminus, leaves you still with Skull in play.

L10
08-07-2012, 01:21 PM
I thought he was saying Godo literally dodges StP and Terminus, which I didn't understand. But, I figured he was talking about Batterskull. Batterskull is pretty good. I currently have 3 in my deck. I guess I can splash red and try Godo out. 6CMC for two bodies is not bad.

vintersorg
08-07-2012, 10:06 PM
I'm testing Summoning trap in sb, 2 summoning traps, it's funny seeing your opponent's face when he countered your metalworker and you used summoning trap that turned out in a blightsteel colossus or sundering titan :tongue:

bruizar
08-08-2012, 10:16 AM
The rationale behind Godo is that everything in MUD should be resistant to Swords to Plowshares (and Jace). On that note, Wurmcoil got cut from the list. Other cards that didn't quiet make the cut for me that do this are Etched Champion and Duplicant. The biggest play this deck has is Chalice of the Void for 1. Karn Liberated is the most expensive threat I run, and it is also resistant to Swords to Plowshares. Even though MUD has the mana to cast insanely powerful and expensive threats, doesn't mean you are untouchable against tempo plays such as Swords to Plowshares, Spell Pierce or Force of Will. This is the reason why Cavern of Souls and Chalice of the Void play such a big role in the deck. They help you resolve and protect your insanely powerful plays.

Metalworker: Relying too much on Metalworker is not so smart, because it increases the importance of Swords to Plowshares in your match-ups. This is the reason why I run other acceleration as well. Again, to lower the impact of Swords to Plowshares (and Lightning Bolt). Instead, the focus is on a lower curve. Having castable threats with minimal mana acceleration support helps decrease the value of Spell Pierce, which will surely pick on your Grim Monolith's and Dynamo's.

Blightsteel Colossus: is really bad. It is a dead draw without an insane Metalworker hand or without an active Kuldotha Forgemaster.

Scenario 1: Metalworker with Blightsteel Colossus: If you have a hand full of artifacts, do you really care about spending 12 mana for a Blightsteel Colossus? You probably win the game just by throwing your hand on the table anyway.

Scenario 2: Kuldotha Forgemaster with Blightsteel Colossus: This deck already has major problems fighting RUG. Do you really want to expose yourself to the omnipresent stifle and swords to plowshares like this (meta=Maverick/RUG/Blade/Miracle)? Even if you can do your trick without getting Swords to Plowshares or Stifled, Kuldotha Forgemaster costs 5 mana and metalcraft. Forgemaster has summoning sickness, and Blightsteel Colossus has summoning Sickness too. That means that your BSC will be able to attack 2 turns after you resolve your Kuldotha Forgemaster. Moltensteel Dragon costs 4 mana, and usually finishes the game in 1 or 2 hits, which is quicker, or at worst on-par with BSC (BSC getting blocked sux). It is easier to cast than Kuldotha Forgemaster, doesn't expose you to stifle, and doesnt lead to dead draws with Blightsteel Colossus. It also provides a blocker against Delver. Moltensteel Dragon is a better version of Blightsteel Colossus, and Kuldotha Forgemaster is just, really really bad, especially post-board when you can expect things like Ancient Grudge against you.

Preboard, my deck totally roflstomps Maverick, but I am having problems against GSZ for Gaddock Teeg. I am still thinking about what I can do to fix this. My best bets right now are Pyroclasm, Arc Slogger and Sudden Shock and Ghostfire (Gets rid of Teeg when the board state = Mother of Runes + Gaddock Teeg, which Pyroclasm doesn't do). Arc-Slogger is really a dirty fix that I don't really like, but it's among the few cards that could really fix this problem.

Blood Moon: Blood Moon is a card that does nothing. It doesn't kill your opponent, it merely screws with him. I don't like the card as Maverick can GSZ for Qasali and has Noble Hierarch to color fix. Rug will have already resolved a Delver that will just kill you (and throw bolts on you) and UW can easily just fetch a basic to make your life suck. Blood Moon will be a minor set-back to good players at most. I would rather have a real threat, such as Bonfire of the Damned.

Bonfire of the Damned the entire week and the only time I didn't want to see it was with a Gaddock Teeg out. It was always good, even though my opponent was on 45 life, I was hoping to draw it so I could Bonfire his Jace and his Mystic. The times when there were no planeswalkers or creatures I just used it as a big disintegrate. It was at its best pre-board against Maverick, but got trumped postboard by Gaddock Teeg. Though I didn't play tribal decks, bonfire will surely be awesome against both Goblins, Elves, Merfolk and Death and Taxes.

The best card against me thus far, not counting Gaddock Teeg, was Vendilion Clique. This card singlehandedly blew me out of the game a couple of times, clique'ing my Godo and beating my Karn Liberated after I activated its -3. I could have outplayed Clique if I was better prepared for the Clique scenario's, but my inexperience against the card with this deck made it very troublesome to deal with. Deciding to +4 or -3 the first time activation is actually quiet important with cards like lightning bolt and vendilion clique in the format.

Philipp2293
08-08-2012, 03:29 PM
What did you replace the Wurmcoil Engines with?

vintersorg
08-08-2012, 06:02 PM
The rationale behind Godo is that everything in MUD should be resistant to Swords to Plowshares (and Jace). On that note, Wurmcoil got cut from the list. Other cards that didn't quiet make the cut for me that do this are Etched Champion and Duplicant. The biggest play this deck has is Chalice of the Void for 1. Karn Liberated is the most expensive threat I run, and it is also resistant to Swords to Plowshares. Even though MUD has the mana to cast insanely powerful and expensive threats, doesn't mean you are untouchable against tempo plays such as Swords to Plowshares, Spell Pierce or Force of Will. This is the reason why Cavern of Souls and Chalice of the Void play such a big role in the deck. They help you resolve and protect your insanely powerful plays.

Metalworker: Relying too much on Metalworker is not so smart, because it increases the importance of Swords to Plowshares in your match-ups. This is the reason why I run other acceleration as well. Again, to lower the impact of Swords to Plowshares (and Lightning Bolt). Instead, the focus is on a lower curve. Having castable threats with minimal mana acceleration support helps decrease the value of Spell Pierce, which will surely pick on your Grim Monolith's and Dynamo's.

Blightsteel Colossus: is really bad. It is a dead draw without an insane Metalworker hand or without an active Kuldotha Forgemaster.

Scenario 1: Metalworker with Blightsteel Colossus: If you have a hand full of artifacts, do you really care about spending 12 mana for a Blightsteel Colossus? You probably win the game just by throwing your hand on the table anyway.

Scenario 2: Kuldotha Forgemaster with Blightsteel Colossus: This deck already has major problems fighting RUG. Do you really want to expose yourself to the omnipresent stifle and swords to plowshares like this (meta=Maverick/RUG/Blade/Miracle)? Even if you can do your trick without getting Swords to Plowshares or Stifled, Kuldotha Forgemaster costs 5 mana and metalcraft. Forgemaster has summoning sickness, and Blightsteel Colossus has summoning Sickness too. That means that your BSC will be able to attack 2 turns after you resolve your Kuldotha Forgemaster. Moltensteel Dragon costs 4 mana, and usually finishes the game in 1 or 2 hits, which is quicker, or at worst on-par with BSC (BSC getting blocked sux). It is easier to cast than Kuldotha Forgemaster, doesn't expose you to stifle, and doesnt lead to dead draws with Blightsteel Colossus. It also provides a blocker against Delver. Moltensteel Dragon is a better version of Blightsteel Colossus, and Kuldotha Forgemaster is just, really really bad, especially post-board when you can expect things like Ancient Grudge against you.

Preboard, my deck totally roflstomps Maverick, but I am having problems against GSZ for Gaddock Teeg. I am still thinking about what I can do to fix this. My best bets right now are Pyroclasm, Arc Slogger and Sudden Shock and Ghostfire (Gets rid of Teeg when the board state = Mother of Runes + Gaddock Teeg, which Pyroclasm doesn't do). Arc-Slogger is really a dirty fix that I don't really like, but it's among the few cards that could really fix this problem.

Blood Moon: Blood Moon is a card that does nothing. It doesn't kill your opponent, it merely screws with him. I don't like the card as Maverick can GSZ for Qasali and has Noble Hierarch to color fix. Rug will have already resolved a Delver that will just kill you (and throw bolts on you) and UW can easily just fetch a basic to make your life suck. Blood Moon will be a minor set-back to good players at most. I would rather have a real threat, such as Bonfire of the Damned.

Bonfire of the Damned the entire week and the only time I didn't want to see it was with a Gaddock Teeg out. It was always good, even though my opponent was on 45 life, I was hoping to draw it so I could Bonfire his Jace and his Mystic. The times when there were no planeswalkers or creatures I just used it as a big disintegrate. It was at its best pre-board against Maverick, but got trumped postboard by Gaddock Teeg. Though I didn't play tribal decks, bonfire will surely be awesome against both Goblins, Elves, Merfolk and Death and Taxes.

The best card against me thus far, not counting Gaddock Teeg, was Vendilion Clique. This card singlehandedly blew me out of the game a couple of times, clique'ing my Godo and beating my Karn Liberated after I activated its -3. I could have outplayed Clique if I was better prepared for the Clique scenario's, but my inexperience against the card with this deck made it very troublesome to deal with. Deciding to +4 or -3 the first time activation is actually quiet important with cards like lightning bolt and vendilion clique in the format.

Your posts are interesting since you are making a 'revolution' in mud builds, your build is the most different build i ever saw in this type of deck, since i have a mud and i want to take it to tournaments i would like to know some good cards to change the board to my side, so you are really sure about all this? I mean, mud is all about this (at least now); kuldotha forgemaster/goblin welder/wurmcoil, i don't like batterskull in this deck but the molten steel dragon is interesting, what are your suggestions? :smile:

deadad
08-08-2012, 10:38 PM
...
Preboard, my deck totally roflstomps Maverick, but I am having problems against GSZ for Gaddock Teeg. I am still thinking about what I can do to fix this. My best bets right now are Pyroclasm, Arc Slogger and Sudden Shock and Ghostfire (Gets rid of Teeg when the board state = Mother of Runes + Gaddock Teeg, which Pyroclasm doesn't do). Arc-Slogger is really a dirty fix that I don't really like, but it's among the few cards that could really fix this problem....


And how about Whipflare? it does the same as pyroclasm , but doesn't toast your creatures.. or you can use Serrated arrows.

L10
08-08-2012, 11:02 PM
Preboard, my deck totally roflstomps Maverick, but I am having problems against GSZ for Gaddock Teeg.
Duplicant and Phyrexian Metamorph usually works. Just Wasteland their Karakas and you should be set.

bruizar
08-09-2012, 06:16 AM
What did you replace the Wurmcoil Engines with?
Godo and Batterskull replace Wurmcoil Engine. They are bigger, more resilient bombs against control type decks (smart decks), whereas Wurmcoil Engine is a mere Craw Wurm in the face of Swords to Plowshares and Jace.


And how about Whipflare? it does the same as pyroclasm , but doesn't toast your creatures.. or you can use Serrated arrows.

Although Whipflare is nice with Metalworker out, it doesn't beat mother of runes in conjunction with Gaddock Teeg / zenith. They will just give gaddock teeg protection and you will still be locked out. Sudden Shock is the best answer now, since it also deals with Karakas/Teeg. Sudden Shock is also a valid answer to Delver of Secrets, since RUG won't be able to tempo-counter it due to split second.

Serrated Arrows is sort of nice, since you can pick off a lot of dudes with it. Even if you resolve it before Teeg (shuts serrated arrows down), I'm still afraid that you would give Gaddock Teeg -1/-1 only to have it bounced by Karakas, or to see GSZ for Qasali leaving a 1/1 Teeg to mess your game up.


Your posts are interesting since you are making a 'revolution' in mud builds, your build is the most different build i ever saw in this type of deck, since i have a mud and i want to take it to tournaments i would like to know some good cards to change the board to my side, so you are really sure about all this? I mean, mud is all about this (at least now); kuldotha forgemaster/goblin welder/wurmcoil, i don't like batterskull in this deck but the molten steel dragon is interesting, what are your suggestions? :smile:

Thanks. As a longtime vintage shop player I've been working on artifact decks in legacy for the last several years on the idea that in Vintage, sideboarding strategies are centered around hating dredge and shop, leaving almost no slots for the other match-ups. From that perspective, the absence of a dominant artifact deck in legacy has been the inspiration for me to come up with artifact strategies in legacy. Legacy decks can't sufficiently prey on both dredge and artifacts when the legacy playing field is as diverse as it is. There are only 15 sideboard slots you know :)

I am currently playing a more heavy red build, which gives me a ton of options. The best thing about the color red (apart from Godo), is that this color has a lot of functional reprints, which allows you to beat any deck there is, if you really want to, you usually have access to atleast 8 cards if you really wanted to. Some examples are:

Rolling Earthquake + Bonfire of the Damned = GG Tribal meta
Red Elemental Blast + Pyroblast + Burnout = GG Jace / Delver / Counters (Burnout is especially interesting if you have already resolved a Chalice of the Void for 1. Doesn't kill jace/delver though)
Ghostfire+Sudden Shock+Phyrexian Metamorph=Take out Teeg under protection of MoM
Pyrostatic Pillar+Trinisphere+Mindbreak Trap+Thorn of Amethyst+Sphere of Resistance+maindeck Lodestone Golem and Chalice of the Void=GG Storm combo
Grafdigger's Cage+Tormod's Crypt+Relic of Progenitus=GG graveyards decks (though i wouldnt run cage and relic with chalice, there is also Ravenous Trap)

Other considerations are Shatttering Spree, Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, Chaos Warp, Lightning Bolt, Cursed Totem, Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker, Goblin Welder and Sulfur Elemental. Now, the issue of the sideboard is that you need to know exactly what you can expect, and fine tune the numbers accordingly. As you can see, there are a lot of angles that you can sideboard into but I still need to work on this and test extensively. I'm currently not totally satisfied with the maindeck yet, but it's getting close. I may end up running more mountains and cutting utility lands.

On the topic of Batterskull, I would urge you to try it out. The card has been a dominant piece in control decks since its printing. Blade Control is a deck to beat, and this deck has a stronger Batterskull through Godo.



Duplicant and Phyrexian Metamorph usually works. Just Wasteland their Karakas and you should be set.

The CC on duplicant is prohibitive to make it consistent though much stronger against a deck that also plays Knight of the Reliquary. I am not sure if that is a problem though, since maverick doesn't counter your mana-artifacts. Phyrexian Metamorph is a better card against Maverick I think, because you can also copy your Batterskull, their Umezawa's Jitte or even a Mother of Runes. That said, if you copy your Godo, you will legend slay them, but atleast you can put an extra equipment into play. A decent play would be to copy godo and put Sword of Light and Shadow (which is in my sideboard) into play, equip it to batterskull and just ride him out to victory gaining 9 life and returning Godo and Metamorph back to your hand through the SoLaS trigger. I will start testing Metamorph the next play session against Maverick.

vintersorg
08-09-2012, 08:12 AM
Thanks. As a longtime vintage shop player I've been working on artifact decks in legacy for the last several years on the idea that in Vintage, sideboarding strategies are centered around hating dredge and shop, leaving almost no slots for the other match-ups. From that perspective, the absence of a dominant artifact deck in legacy has been the inspiration for me to come up with artifact strategies in legacy. Legacy decks can't sufficiently prey on both dredge and artifacts when the legacy playing field is as diverse as it is. There are only 15 sideboard slots you know :)

I am currently playing a more heavy red build, which gives me a ton of options. The best thing about the color red (apart from Godo), is that this color has a lot of functional reprints, which allows you to beat any deck there is, if you really want to, you usually have access to atleast 8 cards if you really wanted to. Some examples are:

Rolling Earthquake + Bonfire of the Damned = GG Tribal meta
Red Elemental Blast + Pyroblast + Burnout = GG Jace / Delver / Counters (Burnout is especially interesting if you have already resolved a Chalice of the Void for 1. Doesn't kill jace/delver though)
Ghostfire+Sudden Shock+Phyrexian Metamorph=Take out Teeg under protection of MoM
Pyrostatic Pillar+Trinisphere+Mindbreak Trap+Thorn of Amethyst+Sphere of Resistance+maindeck Lodestone Golem and Chalice of the Void=GG Storm combo
Grafdigger's Cage+Tormod's Crypt+Relic of Progenitus=GG graveyards decks (though i wouldnt run cage and relic with chalice, there is also Ravenous Trap)

Other considerations are Shatttering Spree, Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, Chaos Warp, Lightning Bolt, Cursed Totem, Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker, Goblin Welder and Sulfur Elemental. Now, the issue of the sideboard is that you need to know exactly what you can expect, and fine tune the numbers accordingly. As you can see, there are a lot of angles that you can sideboard into but I still need to work on this and test extensively. I'm currently not totally satisfied with the maindeck yet, but it's getting close. I may end up running more mountains and cutting utility lands.

On the topic of Batterskull, I would urge you to try it out. The card has been a dominant piece in control decks since its printing. Blade Control is a deck to beat, and this deck has a stronger Batterskull through Godo.




The CC on duplicant is prohibitive to make it consistent though much stronger against a deck that also plays Knight of the Reliquary. I am not sure if that is a problem though, since maverick doesn't counter your mana-artifacts. Phyrexian Metamorph is a better card against Maverick I think, because you can also copy your Batterskull, their Umezawa's Jitte or even a Mother of Runes. That said, if you copy your Godo, you will legend slay them, but atleast you can put an extra equipment into play. A decent play would be to copy godo and put Sword of Light and Shadow (which is in my sideboard) into play, equip it to batterskull and just ride him out to victory gaining 9 life and returning Godo and Metamorph back to your hand through the SoLaS trigger. I will start testing Metamorph the next play session against Maverick.

My problem with godo and batterskull is, the chances to get godo countered in turn 2 are huge, and you are using batterskull only because of him right? So, at the point when godo get's countered, batterskull get's the same utility as wurmcoil engine since you will cast only one card and not two, and wurmcoil is way better than batterskull on its own, but you are testing godo and i don't (didn't find it in my local shop) , how many times you made a godo and he get countered? and at some point your opponents will know your deck and will know that godo is an important piece so he will get a counter waiting for him.

Against maverick i can see a good match with godo because they don't run blue, but against stoneblade which is a strong deck in the meta and it's very predominant, they have something like 5~10 counters in their decks, that's annoying.

I really liked moltensteel dragon!, never thought about it, i was used to pump my steel hellkite with metalworker/sol lands to make him bigger like 10/5, but paying life make your mana base intact to use another threats, just have to be careful to not kill yourself hehe.

About bonfire of the damned, its awesome, i really liked, at some point i thought about fireball haha, pretty basic but with tons of mana to produce... but, when i saw the build, i was taking artifacts to put non artifact cards so its bad for a metalworker/ mana base that isn't entirely red, you suffered with something like this?

Your thoughts about blightsteel colossus are nice, actually i won a lot of games because of him, lightning greaves in bf, forgemaster turn 2, equip..etc..etc, BUT, its just a detail in the deck, and relying too much in metalworker isn't a good think, i lost games because of it, you hae a good point in this argument (:

I'm getting huge problems with this new card:omniscience..it's insane, i have a friend with a show and tell deck and i'm getting a lot of problems dealing with him.

Turn 1: city of traitors, mox diamond, show and tell, omniscience, emrakul, extra turn.

yeah... and omnscience don't have triggered abilities or nothing that i can deal with it.. with griselbrand i can use revoker but the rest.. and he uses 13~16 counters in his deck.. wtf :s

Magus of the moon is a good creature for mud i think, but like you said, his ability is just..annoying, could give you some advantage for a few turns but don't know if its worth using him

whiley85
08-09-2012, 09:21 AM
I think counters are the reason why he plays caverns. This + chalice + golem has a good chance to push some cards through...

L10
08-09-2012, 01:22 PM
Not sure if this belongs in this thread but has anyone tried a prison build with success? This is my current build.

Mana (28)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Buried Ruin
4 City of Traitors
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Mox Diamond

Panzer (12)
2 Batterskull
2 Karn, Silver Golem
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker

Locks (14)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
2 Trinisphere

Others (6)
4 Crucible of Worlds
2 Sundial of the Infinite

I really like this deck, though still needs some fine tuning.
Smokestack goes really well with Tangle Wire and Sundial of the Infinite. If I have all three pieces on board, it is pretty much game.

Crucible of Worlds plays a huge role because I can mana lock my opponent, have a sacrifice vessel for Smokestack, or recur my lock pieces with Buried Ruin.

I decided to go with Batterskull because he is StP proof. If he does get countered or destroyed, I have Buried Ruin to fetch him back. Lifelink is always good with Ancient Tombs in my deck.

Karn is simply awesome to turn all my locks into beaters. If my opponent kills my germ token, I can turn Batterskull into a beater and before bouncing him back.

I really like this list right now. Still Tinkering with numbers and adding other cards. Though, maybe this belongs in MUD Stax, if such threads exists.

Zirath
08-09-2012, 01:40 PM
Not sure if this belongs in this thread but has anyone tried a prison build with success? This is my current build.

I've theorized Stax a couple times. It is possible for sure. I think it's very unexplored however.

I think the Stompy shell with Grim Monolith, Key and Dynamo is required. You want to accelerate into Thorn of Amethyst and Sphere of Resistance imo.

L10
08-09-2012, 01:54 PM
I think the Stompy shell with Grim Monolith, Key and Dynamo is required. You want to accelerate into Thorn of Amethyst and Sphere of Resistance imo.

Yes, there are quite a few locks I wanted to include, such as Thorn and Sphere. I just do not know what to cut out for them. The problem with adding more ramps is that I have to cut locks. I guess I can remove Metalworker, but Metalworker has been insane if I get him out early. The gamble is usually in my favor.

I do like Voltaic Key though, even with an active Chalice. I can always use Karn on Chalice, cost Key, and play another Chalice.

The problem is that I want to play 80 cards in a 60 card deck.

Thanks for the comment. I will be tinkering.

bruizar
08-09-2012, 02:39 PM
My problem with godo and batterskull is, the chances to get godo countered in turn 2 are huge, and you are using batterskull only because of him right? So, at the point when godo get's countered, batterskull get's the same utility as wurmcoil engine since you will cast only one card and not two, and wurmcoil is way better than batterskull on its own, but you are testing godo and i don't (didn't find it in my local shop) , how many times you made a godo and he get countered? and at some point your opponents will know your deck and will know that godo is an important piece so he will get a counter waiting for him.

I started playing Godo after playing a singleton Batterskull. Batterskull was really good because of its strength against StP and because the curve was reduced slightly from Wurmcoil's 6. Batterskull is actually a great card because he can attack and defend with lifelink at the same time.



Against maverick i can see a good match with godo because they don't run blue, but against stoneblade which is a strong deck in the meta and it's very predominant, they have something like 5~10 counters in their decks, that's annoying.

Esperblade has 3 Force of Wills and 1 Counterspell, so that's pretty good for Godo. You absolutely don't want to have your Godo forced. Spell Snare and Spell Pierce do nothing against Godo. Cavern of Souls is an important card since it both colorfixes and protects against counters. The bigger problem for me thus far was Vendillion Clique.




About bonfire of the damned, its awesome, i really liked, at some point i thought about fireball haha, pretty basic but with tons of mana to produce... but, when i saw the build, i was taking artifacts to put non artifact cards so its bad for a metalworker/ mana base that isn't entirely red, you suffered with something like this?

Metalworker only needs 2 artifacts to be good. I don't need to go broken with Metalworker, I just need to be able to cast 1 big bomb a turn. I have actually cut Mox Opal and Great Furnace for this reason. Mox Opal is a stupid card in a deck that can't consistently put out 3 artifacts on turn 1, and great furnace is susceptible to wasteland. Moltensteel Dragon is an artifact by the way :).



I think counters are the reason why he plays caverns. This + chalice + golem has a good chance to push some cards through...

That is correct. Sideboard I play 6 Red Elemental Blast / Pyroblast, though I'm not sure if that is what it takes to beat a deck like this. The trick with show and tell decks is that they are decks that require the player to sculpt their hand. The best angle to attack imo would be a very explosive hand with lodestone golems, chalice, red elemental blast and a moltensteel dragon to close the gap quickly. I would need to see the Omniscience list and test it to make any real suggestions though.

I would categorize the different MUD builds as follows right now:
Meandeck Mud (Kuldotha Forgemaster)
Mythic Mud (Dynamo/Karn/Steel Hellkite)
Red Mud (Godo/Moltensteel Dragon/Bonfire)

bruizar
08-09-2012, 02:55 PM
Not sure if this belongs in this thread but has anyone tried a prison build with success? This is my current build.

Mana (28)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Buried Ruin
4 City of Traitors
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Mox Diamond

Panzer (12)
2 Batterskull
2 Karn, Silver Golem
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker

Locks (14)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
2 Trinisphere

Others (6)
4 Crucible of Worlds
2 Sundial of the Infinite

I really like this deck, though still needs some fine tuning.
Smokestack goes really well with Tangle Wire and Sundial of the Infinite. If I have all three pieces on board, it is pretty much game.

Crucible of Worlds plays a huge role because I can mana lock my opponent, have a sacrifice vessel for Smokestack, or recur my lock pieces with Buried Ruin.

I decided to go with Batterskull because he is StP proof. If he does get countered or destroyed, I have Buried Ruin to fetch him back. Lifelink is always good with Ancient Tombs in my deck.

Karn is simply awesome to turn all my locks into beaters. If my opponent kills my germ token, I can turn Batterskull into a beater and before bouncing him back.

I really like this list right now. Still Tinkering with numbers and adding other cards. Though, maybe this belongs in MUD Stax, if such threads exists.
You are underestimating Batterskull I think :) I really like Batterskull with Karn, Silver Golem. Even though it exposes you to StP on Batterskull, you can return it to your hand in response and get rid of the StP. Batterskull is sweet because you can put someone in a Smokestack lock with the germ (sack germ, bounce replay). Sundial of the Infinite is crap, you should cut it because you already have Crucible and Batterskull to lock out opponents. 4 Crucibles is way too much though. 3 at most, but maybe only 2. They suck as redundant top-decks. I'm also not sure if 4 tangle wires is the way to go. I think I would rather have more mana ramp so I have a stronger early game. I would also seriously consider adding red for Goblin Welder and Cavern of Souls / Mountains to support him. I always believed that Goblin Welder is more of a stax card than a MUD card, even though he's a walking lightning rod. Perhaps he's too fragile though, but he's great against a deck with counterspells. Once you go red, you start adding Godo really quickly, especially in a deck where Batterskull is so strong and where getting 3 permanents that you can sack for Smokestack is so good. I don't even know if there is a deck that benefits from not having Godo around to be honest.

I think the slots going to ghost quarters are wasted. There are much better lands available, even if you do intend to stay colorless.

As a side note, I have a prison combo list that I am keeping privately for now. It's still not optimal but it takes a very different approach. There are 2 more paths I would like to explore.

Deck idea 1: secret prison list :)
Deck idea 2: White Mud/Stax: With Stoneforge Mystic/Stonehewer Giant (not as good as godo because not stp proof) for Batterskull and Thalia/Lodestone Golem as resistors.
Deck idea 3:Prototype Portal + Spheres+Tangle Wires. Prototype Portal imprinting artifact land or moxen will help you ramp very quickly and gives you a sick late game, whereas, when you start imprinting tangle wires, you lock out the game really quickly. Prototype Portal can also get an insane amount of Voltaic Keys for Grim Monolith and Smokestack, or copy Smokestack to sack to itself, thereby providing the lock. It's also a great virtual card advantage tool, that I wish to explore in greater detail in the future.

vintersorg
08-09-2012, 08:35 PM
I'm getting me convinced that welder build is kindda dead nowadays, the grave hate is tremendous , yes sure a sundering titan turn 2 is amazing indeed, but seeing your titan get eated by a scavenging ooze isn't amazing hehe.

I really love goblin welder and i get awesome moments with him allowing me tons of wurmcoil's tokens and recycling spine of ish sah/ mindslaver..but depending in your grave to win is a horrible condition, i think i will change my focus, but the problem is the draw engine, without faithless looting / color splash, we don't have a good draw engine, any thoughts? and i didn't see anyone talking about it but what do you guys think about Trading Post from m13? could be a good draw engine / life saver

vintersorg
08-09-2012, 10:27 PM
Bruizar, yeah..i tested batterskull..NOW i know what are you talking about actually, with the aditional combat phase plus batterskull's vigilance ( only a couple minutes ago i saw this sinergy with vigilance, d'uh for me )..it's just too insane :) i'm getting convinced, i'm testing this build:

2 batterskull
4 chalice of the void
2 crucible of worlds
4 grim monolith
2 scroll rack <--- better than top imo
3 thran dynamo
3 voltaic key

3 godo, bandit warlord
4 lodestone golem
1 magus of the moon
4 metalworker
1 moltensteel dragon
1 phyrexian metamorph
2 steel hellkite
2 sundering titan

2 karn liberated

4 ancient tomb
4 cavern of souls
4 city of traitors
3 crystal vein
5 mountain

bruizar
08-10-2012, 04:28 AM
I agree that Goblin Welder is looking super lackluster right now. I have been looking at Trading Post myself. My research lead me to this thread:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=44357.0

Although I haven't tested the card at all yet, I think it could be a great late game card. My fear is that 4 mana for a card that gives A LOT of utility, but generally all minor effects is too expensive but the only way to really know is to test it. Prototype Portal is a card that is far more attractive in my opinion, since it can imprint the following:

Sensei's Divining Top: Prototype Portal will be (4), 1T: draw a card. The SDT token will go on your deck which means you are actually netting +1 card every time you use the Portal.

Phyrexian Metamorph: Prototype Portal imprinted wiith Phyrexian Metamorph can copy any creature or artifact you have. Better yet, you can use a token to copy Prototype Portal and remove another artifact from your hand so each top deck you make will become a new Prototype Portal with the card, which should give you infinite threats.

Voltaic Key: Paying 1 Mana to create a Voltaic Key means that you can use another mana to untap the Prototype Portal. So, for each 2 Mana, you can get a new Voltaic Key. That if you have a Grim Monolith, Metalworker or Dynamo out, this will be insane mana generation for you.

Lodestone Golem: Making a Lodestone Golem every turn is sweet. Even without Chalice of the Void, Swords to Plowshares, Brainstorm and Jace will never be able to keep up with you.

Batterskull: Not the best, but it could help you a lot. If you already played Batterskull and top deck a Prototype Portal with an empty hand, you can bounce Batterskull and imprint it, then spam lifelinkers in a stalemate. Not the best, since you don't really want to bounce batterskull tokens, but then again, that's not even necesary if you can just make a new one for 5 instead of bounce replay for 8.

Metalworker: Why not play metalworker as is? Well, Prototype Portal can be cast without saying what you are going to imprint. If they don't counter it, you can imprint your Metalworker and sneak it into play like this.

Great Furnace+Darksteel Citadel: Thran Dynamo costs 4 and makes 3 mana. Prototype Portal costs 4 and makes 2 mana the next time you untap. Then the turn after you are on par with Thran Dynamo and after that it starts getting out of hand.

Tangle Wire: Spamming Tangle Wires is something I really don't think anyone survives. You can tap your tokens, and unlike regular tangle wires, you can play them with ALL your mana untapped, every turn, because you can create the token in your upkeep and stack it with Tangle Wire like a boss. If you have more cards in deck than your opponent, you will simply deck him out :).

Chalice of the Void: Not only does Prototype Portal circumvent Chalice of the Void the way Cavern of Souls does with Goblin welder, you can make extra Chalices too! If your gamestate is better than your opponents gamestate, you can start making chalice for 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. :) If you don't have chalice for 4, you can play prototype portal to get around your own chalice! (CHalice for 1, topdeck a Sensei's Top).

Smokestack: Creates tokens to sack for the smokestack lock!

SirTylerGalt
08-10-2012, 07:52 AM
bruizar, I really like all the innovation you are bringing to legacy MUD. First Godo and Moltensteel, and now Prototype Portal and Trading Post. I learn a lot reading your post. Thanks.

Trading Post was discussed a little when it was spoiled, but nobody really did anything with it. Now that you mention it again, I realize how good it is. It's a Goblin Welder that can't be stp'ed, and synergizes with a lot of other artifacts: Voltaic Key, Sensei's Divining Top, Tangle Wire, Smokestack...

Prototype Portal is insane. I wonder why nobody used it before.

I think Prototype Portal could fit in the MUD-Stompy deck you posted on the previous page (with godo and batterskull) as an additional card-advantage engine, or in a more stax-like build (with Smokestack and/or Tangle Wire).

Here is an (untested) attempt at a mix between your stompy shell and a more prison-oriented deck with Tangle Wires:


4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Voltaic Key

4 Grim Monolith
4 Thran Dynamo

4 Goblin Welder
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Batterskull
2 Godo, Bandit Warlord

4 Prototype Portal
4 Tangle Wire
2 Trading Post


4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Darksteel Citadel
4 Great Furnace
4 Mountain

// SB
4 Bonfire of the Damned
4 Tormod's crypt
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Cursed Totem



I removed Chalice, since Sensei's Top and Voltaic Key are awesome in this deck. With Chalice gone, we can add Welder back.

Voltaic Key:
- Makes tons of mana with Monolith and Dynamo
- Untaps Lodestone Golem for the second attack phase of Godo. Resolving Godo with Golem and Key in play means that you attack for 24 next turn (3*2 from Godo, 4*2 from Batterskull, 5*2 from Golem)
- Untaps Prototype Portal and Trading Post for more shenanigans
- Can be imprinted on Prototype Portal to create dozens of Keys.
- Combos with Top to draw multiple cards

Sensei's Divining Top:
- Lets us filter our draws
- Lets us setup Bonfire of the Damned against creature decks (I put it in the SB, but it might be better maindeck)
- Combos with Voltaic Key, Goblin Welder, and Trading Post to draw cards (tap top, sac it to Trading Post --> draw two cards)

Goblin Welder:
- Lets us recur countered threats and Tangle Wires.
- Lets us swap out tapped Grim Monolith (and swap them back in untapped)
- Lets us draw cards with Sensei's Top


Removing Chalice makes the deck more vulnerable to Swords to Plowshares, but Godo and Batterskull are good against stp. Trading Post also lets us sacrifice the sworded creature to draw a card. Since the creature is not removed from the game, it is available for later recursion. We could consider adding back Wurmcoil, since Trading Post and Goblin Welder let us sacrifice the Wurmcoil in response to StP, netting us two tokens and some card advantage...

That said, Goblin Welder might be "too cute" and too vulnerable to opponent's removal. We could swap it for more Trading Post and/or more lock components (Smokestack, Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistance...).

Mishra's Factory could also be considered, as an early game blocker, and as a finisher (it can become huge with voltaic keys). Imprint Voltaic Key on Prototype Portal, create dozens of keys, then use them to untap Mishra's Factory 18 times to pump itself before the combat damage step :)



Here is a mono-brown Stax version:


3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Voltaic Key

4 Grim Monolith
4 Thran Dynamo

4 Lodestone Golem
2 Batterskull

4 Prototype Portal
3 Trading Post

4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack

2 Crucible of Worlds

4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Buried Ruin

// SB
4 Tormod's crypt
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Cursed Totem
4 Spine of Ish Sah



I'd like to add Phyrexian Metamorph and more Sphere Effects, but there is not enough room... Phyrexian Metamorph lets you kill legendary creature. It also enables great starts such as T2 Lodestone, T3 Metamorph. And it's insane with Prototype portal: it lets you copy on creature each turn!



---------------------------------------------

Remark: Prototype Portal can't make Chalice copies with counters:

"1/1/2011: If the exiled card has {X} in its mana cost (such as Chalice of the Void), that X is considered to be 0. The {X} in Prototype Portal's activation cost takes this into account, though it may be greater than 0 if the exiled card has other mana symbols in its mana cost (such as Riptide Replicator)."
http://magiccards.info/som/en/195.html

bruizar
08-10-2012, 08:18 AM
Thanks SirTylerGalt. I am happy that you appreciate my endless brewing with the archetype :).

Good point on Chalice with Prototype Portal. It's a shame that doesn't work, otherwise it would lock players out nearly the same way as Tangle Wire does, which would definitely warrant a 4-off inclusion.

There are 2 more important interactions to note with Prototype Portal.
1) With Phyrexian Metamorph, you essentially circumvent every counterspell. When you make a Phyrexian Metamorph token targeting Prototype Portal, you may imprint a card on the token. This way, you will never actually cast another spell the entire game except for maybe Godo/Karn/Bonfire of the Damned. On top of that, you don't just cast it once, but every turn.

2) On Tangle Wire. This is a game-ending portal. The first 4 turns are spent on making 4 Tangle Wire tokens. After you have made 4 Tangle Wires, the board will look like this:

Tangle Wire on 4
Tangle Wire on 3
Tangle Wire on 2
Tangle Wire on 1

This means, your opponent has to tap 10 permanents. He is not going to survive this. But what about your own board state? You untap, use the stack like a boss so you only have to tap 6 permanents instead of 10. 4 of these 6 permanents are Tangle Wire Tokens, which means you only have to tap 2 "real permanents". This means, you will have your entire turn available while your opponent is completely locked out of the game. Tangle Wire has great synergy with Lodestone Golem, since tapping 10 permanents is pretty much a guarantee that your opponent's only untappable permanent is his land drop, Lodestone Golem puts the nail in the coffin as even that land can't be used anymore, while Lodestone beats your opponent to death.

I am not sure what the correct build is for Prototype Portal, but I do know that Metamorph, Tanglewire, artifact land, Key/Top and Lodestone Golem are an integral part of that list. I don't know what the right numbers are either, since I don't have a concrete list just yet, but it is something I am working on and will update in this thread once I find out more.



Trading Post was discussed a little when it was spoiled, but nobody really did anything with it. Now that you mention it again, I realize how good it is. It's a Goblin Welder that can't be stp'ed, and synergizes with a lot of other artifacts: Voltaic Key, Sensei's Divining Top, Tangle Wire, Smokestack...

Yes, I don't have any actual experience with it yet, but apparently it is working for people in Vintage. It's a super versatile card, but we have to remember that we don't have Mishra's Workshop to power it out. Testing is needed to see if this card is good enough. It's almost a bit like a new version of Druidic Satchel, which is also a very versatile support card, but Druidic Satchel lacks the sheer power to be good enough and this is the same question we should ask concerning trading post.



Prototype Portal is insane. I wonder why nobody used it before.

I actually put it on my 'things to buy' list during the spoiler season, but never gotten around to purchasing them. Now I got 4 foils for 4 euro in total :D.



Removing Chalice makes the deck more vulnerable to Swords to Plowshares, but Godo and Batterskull are good against stp. Trading Post also lets us sacrifice the sworded creature to draw a card. Since the creature is not removed from the game, it is available for later recursion. We could consider adding back Wurmcoil, since Trading Post and Goblin Welder let us sacrifice the Wurmcoil in response to StP, netting us two tokens and some card advantage...


I don't think I actually agree with cutting Chalice of the Void in your list though. Chalice is so insane against esperblade and RUG. It makes brainstorms, ponders, thoughtseize/iok, STP, and therefore snapcasters useless and messes with delvers and lightning bolts and stifle on godo!, while also being generally awesome against dredge and storm. Chalice for 1 on the play is often a Mindtwist for 3 against brainstorm decks. I do admit that on the draw, I side out Chalice of the Void, especially against Maverick, but I don't feel comfortable not having Chalice around when I'm on the play. Imagine if Mental Misstep was still legal, and the effect would never stop once you played it. That is Chalice of the Void. You can still use your Prototype Portal to sneak through tops and keys anyway, so it's not like you're shooting yourself in the foot. I do realize that the list is tight and something has got to go. Removing Chalice is a ballsy thing to do and it might pay off, but chalice is generally considered the strongest card in the archetype so it would be very unconventional. If you have recursion going through Trading Post, you could say that discard is already weak against you, so it doesn't matter if they cast it on you or if you have a chalice out. That said, Brainstorm can shuffle those dead cards in exchange for business, and you will run into Spell Pierce a lot, also considering the fact that you're not running *that* many creatures right now.



I'd like to add Phyrexian Metamorph and more Sphere Effects, but there is not enough room... Phyrexian Metamorph lets you kill legendary creature. It also enables great starts such as T2 Lodestone, T3 Metamorph. And it's insane with Prototype portal: it lets you copy on creature each turn!

I wouldn't run Sphere Effects (Sideboard yes, for combo matchups, but not maindeck). Your best play is Tangle Wire and Prototype Portal is already good with the rest of your entire deck. You don't need Spheres to make prototype portal good, and lodestone golem is already the best sphere there is!

SirTylerGalt
08-10-2012, 08:58 AM
Wow. Phyrexian Metamorph is indeed insane in this deck. I think we must play four. It can:
- kill legendary creatures. This includes Gaddock Teeg (which is a big threat against our deck), as well as Griselbrand / Emrakul
- copy a goyf or some random creature, if you need a blocker
- copy a Lodestone Golem or another lock piece. You can close a game very fast with Lodestone Golem followed by Phyrexian Metamorph.
- be imprinted on Prototype Portal, which lets us create additional portals to play other spells, and circumvent every counterspells (as you mentioned). Against aggro, it lets us copy a creature each turn (such as a Delver or a Goyf).


Regarding Prototype Portal imprinting Tangle Wire, it's even better on the following turn, where you'll have *5* Tangle Wires:

Tangle Wire on 4
Tangle Wire on 3
Tangle Wire on 2
Tangle Wire on 1
Tangle Wire on 0

Due to the way fading works, the Tangle Wire is not sacrificed when you remove the last counter, but on the next upkeep, when you try to remove a counter with no counters on it. Which means you can order the triggers like so:

- remove fading counters from Tangle Wire on 0
- tap permanents
- remove fading counters from Tangle Wires on 1-4

The triggers resolve in reverse, so you end up tapping the five tangle wires plus another permanent, then sacrificing the Tangle Wire on 0.

It's even better with Smokestack, since you can order the Smokestack trigger to sacrifice the Tangle Wire on 0.

bruizar
08-10-2012, 09:12 AM
Back on the topic of Red Mud, I am currently testing a more heavy basic mountains build (Mountains are so good with Moltensteel Dragon and against Wasteland!).

I am testing Mouth of Ronom as an extra way to deal with Gaddock Teeg maindeck. This is only possible in a heavy mountain build and I don't advise it if you're only playing 5 mountains. The list I'm currently testing runs:

8 Sol Land
13 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Mouth of Ronom
(yes, no wasteland)

2 sideboard Mouth of Ronom

I also upped the number of Moltensteel Dragons to 2 and started testing Koth of the Hammer. I'm not sure if the 2 Koth's are good enough yet, but I do have some conclusions. He plays a lot of roles. Especially the -2 is nice, because he's sort of a Thran Dynamo in the deck, with the added utility of being able to beat. The ultimate will just win you games if you pop it. Mountains are colorless sources so Mother of Runes can suck it. The problem is that he costs 4 and Teeg shuts him off. This is where Mouth of Ronom comes into play. That said, it is a planeswalker that doesn't protect himself. (+1 does bring him out of Lightning Bolt range, but he doesn't create a wall for himself). Koth isn't bad, but he also isn't the backbreaking topdeck that Bonfire, Godo or Karn are. My first impression is that Mouth of Ronom could provide some great flexibility to the deck. Barbarian Ring requires Threshold which is just too hard to achieve, and Mouth of Ronom + Koth + Moltensteel Dragon ensure that even though you are using basic mountains, you are still getting utility out of your land drops. This is still pending more extensive testing.




Wow. Phyrexian Metamorph is indeed insane in this deck. I think we must play four. It can:
- kill legendary creatures. This includes Gaddock Teeg (which is a big threat against our deck), as well as Griselbrand / Emrakul
- copy a goyf or some random creature, if you need a blocker
- copy a Lodestone Golem or another lock piece. You can close a game very fast with Lodestone Golem followed by Phyrexian Metamorph.
- be imprinted on Prototype Portal, which lets us create additional portals to play other spells, and circumvent every counterspells (as you mentioned). Against aggro, it lets us copy a creature each turn (such as a Delver or a Goyf).


Regarding Prototype Portal imprinting Tangle Wire, it's even better on the following turn, where you'll have *5* Tangle Wires:

Tangle Wire on 4
Tangle Wire on 3
Tangle Wire on 2
Tangle Wire on 1
Tangle Wire on 0

Due to the way fading works, the Tangle Wire is not sacrificed when you remove the last counter, but on the next upkeep, when you try to remove a counter with no counters on it. Which means you can order the triggers like so:

- remove fading counters from Tangle Wire on 0
- tap permanents
- remove fading counters from Tangle Wires on 1-4

The triggers resolve in reverse, so you end up tapping the five tangle wires plus another permanent, then sacrificing the Tangle Wire on 0.

It's even better with Smokestack, since you can order the Smokestack trigger to sacrifice the Tangle Wire on 0.

I think that your sequence is incorrect or I'm not understanding it properly. But you can have 5 tangle wires like you tried to explain (Sorry if I misunderstood it). The way I see it, it works like this:

Let's say that you have this board:

Tangle Wire A 4 counters
Tangle Wire B 3 counters
Tangle Wire C 2 counters
Tangle Wire D 1 counters
Tangle Wire E 0 counters

You pass the turn, and your opponent has to tap 10 permanents. Your opponent does nothing on his turn and passes the turn back to you.
You order the stack like this:

Top of stack
Tangle Wire remove counter A (from 4 to 3 counters)
Tangle Wire remove counter B (from 3 to 2 counters)
Tangle Wire remove counter C (from 2 to 1 counters)
Tangle Wire remove counter D (from 1 to 0 counters)
Tangle Wire tap A -> Tap 3 Tangle Wire tokens, including Tangle Wire E
Tangle Wire tap B -> Tap 2 remaining Tangle Wire Tokens
Tangle Wire tap C -> Tap 1 Permanent
Tangle Wire tap D -> Tap 0 Permanants
Tangle Wire tap E -> Tap 0 permanents
Tangle Wire remove counter E; sacrifice Tangle Wire token
Bottom of Stack

edit: in hindsight, I think this is exactly what you tried to explain :)

L10
08-10-2012, 11:09 AM
I just like to say that Prototype Portal has been insane so far. With Tangle Wire imprinted on it, and Karn in play. I can make an army of 3/3s with my opponent completely tapped out.
1 Karn + 1 Prototype Portal + 4 Tangle Wire = 20 damage = Alpha Stike

My list is pretty messy right now, but I will post it once I have concrete results.

As far as Trading Post goes, it seems that White Stax players are starting to use the tech. Trading Post is especially good with Humility, making your 0/1 goat tokens 1/1. But Humility does not fit with the MUD theme.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBSY0f7Yuj0

vintersorg
08-10-2012, 12:23 PM
Prototype portal is indeed a nice choice , with phyrexian metamorph, really awesome ^^

I'm liking Godo with batterskull very very much, moltensteel dragon too, don't know how to put prototype portal in this build, i'm kinda old fashioned with a lot of 'weird' changes, even if i thought it's awesome, will be lurking here to see your results with prototype portal, but i ordered 3 godo to my build hehe :)

but i think prototype portal allow us using smokestack with more safety, smokestack is a good lock against everything

bruizar
08-10-2012, 12:24 PM
I just like to say that Prototype Portal has been insane so far. With Tangle Wire imprinted on it, and Karn in play. I can make an army of 3/3s with my opponent completely tapped out.
1 Karn + 1 Prototype Portal + 4 Tangle Wire = 20 damage = Alpha Stike
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBSY0f7Yuj0
I'm fairly sure animating the tokens will lead to them going to the graveyard because their CC = 0 and would thus turn into 0/0 creatures. Might have to check on the rules to verify. Karn and Gorilla Shaman are used religiously in vintage to eat moxen, but I think tokens don't have a CC so the same would apply here.



Prototype portal is indeed a nice choice , with phyrexian metamorph, really awesome ^^

I'm liking Godo with batterskull very very much, moltensteel dragon too, don't know how to put prototype portal in this build, i'm kinda old fashioned with a lot of 'weird' changes, even if i thought it's awesome, will be lurking here to see your results with prototype portal, but i ordered 3 godo to my build hehe :)

but i think prototype portal allow us using smokestack with more safety, smokestack is a good lock against everything

I don't have a Prototype Portal build myself. I'm focusing on Red Mud first since I know this build is really brutal. The sheer power of the cards and the lower curve compared to other builds is very strong. Mud shouldn't rely on their ramp so much, even if they have it! If you have ramp, just topdeck a Bonfire and burn them out!

There is one more thing I would like to mention about Bonfire/Rolling Earthquake.

I currently play with 3 main Bonfires and 1 Bonfire+1/2 Rolling Earthquakes side. Bonfire is obviously good because it is one sided, but Rolling Earthquake is always as powerful as a miracle Bonfire. The downside of Rolling Earthquake is that you will suffer from burn as well, but there is a solution to this. Should you come in the position where you have a Karn in play and you are both on 12 or something, you can redirect the damage done to you from Rolling Earthquake to Karn, while Rolling Earthquake deals 12 damage to your opponent, sealing the game without a draw. If you have a Karn out, you are probably doing very well anyway, but this could be more relevant when your build plays Koth. Be sure to -2 before you pop the Rolling Earthquake, so it's extra powerful, then redirect to Koth.

L10
08-10-2012, 12:34 PM
I'm fairly sure animating the tokens will lead to them going to the graveyard because their CC = 0 and would thus turn into 0/0 creatures. Might have to check on the rules to verify. Karn and Gorilla Shaman are used religiously in vintage to eat moxen, but I think tokens don't have a CC so the same would apply here.
You may be right. I usually use Karn to kill opposing Moxens, but never thought to kill opposing tokens with Karn before. Sadly, out of the 10 matches I played last night at Cockatrice, no one has pointed that out. I have to rethink my list then. :/

Edit:
After doing some research, it does seem that Tangle Wire does keep its 3 CMC, because the token has a copy of it's every characteristic. However, most tokens like Lingering Souls is assumed to have 0 CMC because the CMC was never given. So I am in the clear. :D

bruizar
08-10-2012, 12:37 PM
You may be right. I usually use Karn to kill opposing Moxens, but never thought to kill opposing tokens with Karn before. Sadly, out of the 10 matches I played last night at Cockatrice, no one has pointed that out. I have to rethink my list then. :/

If you have a tangle wire on prototype portal, you are tapping 10 permanents every single turn while your own board stays unaffected. I don't think you need to do anything else except attack with Karn to win. Even a mountain goat would win at that point.

(nameless one)
08-10-2012, 12:42 PM
Hey guys,

Sorry but I have been on hiatus but here are some of my thoughts going back to page 10.

Staff of Nin - at 6 mana, you can do other things. Wurmcoil/Batterskull can dominate the aggro/aggro-control matchup. Lodestone Golem can slow the opposition. The pinging is cute and the card draw isn't necessary. I think the Stompy/Colorless versions can be built based on being repetitive, kind of like the recent Merfolk lists that have been showing up.

Stompy/Mono-Brown vs. Welder/Combo builds - with the current meta (where Storm is minimal and control/aggro-control/hatebears are everywhere, I think Zirath's (or mono-brown) is the way to go. You are not racing combo and Stompy versions do a fine job and maintaining board position against control mid to late game. That Chalice at one is the difference between winning and getting blown out with Swords to Plowshares. That Trinisphere/Tangle Wire can be the card that slowing down Terminus from showing up. That Tangle Wire can be the key to get damage through.


Sundering Titan on Zirath's/Fropper (similar) list - Their lists do not run Welders or Forgemasters. Sundering Titan looses its value here since the role of Sundering Titan is to set your opponent a couple of turns. Welder/Forgemaster lists are great with this is because they can do it in the early turns. Having Sundering Titan mid-late game doesn't really do the job as well as the early one.

Bottled Cloister + Ensnaring Bridge - This particular combination probably belongs in a more lockdown list with minimal beaters. Also for card draw reasoning, look up Staff of Nin.

Banefire and Bonfire of the Damned - Banefire is cute and Bonfire seems like a board breaker. It sweeps the board and deals with planeswalkers at the same time. The miracle setup could be its downfall but I still think it warrants testing.

Platinum Emperion - Is great in the Stompy-list as they go to late game. With Emperion, you can use your life as a resource freely.

Goblin Welder and Chalice at one dilemma - Cavern of Souls seems to be the key here though you will be limited to the red spells you play. It is also the key against the opposing permission spells.

Voltaic Key and Chalice at one dilemma - A lot of Stompy lists run this set up and while its anti synergistic, it seems that one or the other does really well in the deck.


Moltensteel Dragon - Honestly, I have contemplated on running Slash Panther because it can consistently go down on turn 2 (and the haste is bonus). Moltensteel Dragon is a better version since it can be pumped and dodges most burn spells. This can be considered as a beater along Wurmcoil or even a Wurmcoil replacement (along with Batterskull?)

Cavern of Souls - see two points above.

Godo, Bandit Warlord - I am actually not sure about this. It doesn't help Metalworker (although it has been mentioned that Metalworker is reduced). I like life point swing it can create but doesn't Chalice at one solve the Swords to Plowshares issue? And I am unsure how good it is against Terminus. Yes, it will leave you a Batterskull but the 8 mana stint (with the risk of getting countered) good enough?

Thran Dynamo - Don't be mistaken with this card. This is not an accelerant. Instead it balances the mana of the deck. It helps you cope with City of Traitor's drawback and helps you use the utility of your utility lands. Definitely recommended. If you want acceleration (or if you want a less mana instensive mana rock, I would go for Mox Diamond/Lotus Petal instead.

Summoning Trap - I have tested this before as a sideboard card. If you're running Trinisphere (even on post-board), its not as good. If you cast this without an open mana, you also risk getting Dazed/Spell Pierced. Cavern of Souls is way better though Cavern doesn't really cheat robots into play.

Against Omniscience - Trinisphere might help in slowing your opponent down. It's not a guaranteed trump card but it might do the trick. Definitely warrants testing against that matchup. Also, Chalice on one can slow they down as it will shut off their card filtering.

Magus of the Moon/Blood Moon - While they're great against greedy manabases, they also slow you down as your Sol Lands also become Mountains. I find that they slow you enough that your opponent will have ample time to find an answer to it. They work with Dragon Stompy because that deck has a lower CC curve that this deck. It can afford turning Sol lands into Mountains.

Stoneforge Mystic/Stonehewer Giant - Stoneforge Mystic can be built around but not with the current Stompy shell. It requires threats that have lower mana curve and emphasis on Sphere effects. The Giant doesn't seem so helpful in the conventional built and Stoneforge-based build.

Trading Post - I tried running Welder with Rummaging Goblin as an engine (and to get value off of Cavern but it wasn't as effective as Faithless Looting (similar to my build). I have really tested Trading Post but it's versatility warrants further testing. I actually see it along with Welder, not a replacement for it.

Prototype Portal - spamming the board with lock pieces... Who doesn't want that? The problem is which build are you going to incorporate Portal? It certainly can help get Sensei's Divining Top (and the draw engine thing is sweet) and Key through Chalice at one but what do you remove from the Stompy build? Is it a shoe-in or does it need to be built around it. I'm actually skeptical on this. Maybe in a more Staxques version.

SirTylerGalt
08-10-2012, 12:43 PM
Prototype Portal tokens have the same CMC as the copied artifact. I wondered about the same thing yesterday, and found a few explanations:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=337552

http://tappedout.net/mtg-questions/do-mimic-vat-tokens-have-a-converted-mana-cost/


The idea is that a token has 0 CMC when the CMC is not explicitely defined. But when the token is a "copy" of a card, its CMC copies the CMC of the card.


--------------------------------------

Unrelated: note that Tangle Wire does not stop the opponent from playing instants while the Tangle Wire triggers are on the stack. They could theoretically cast a StP / Krosan Grip / Shattering Spree before tapping their permanents... It's still a good lock, but not unbreakable.

vintersorg
08-10-2012, 12:48 PM
It's good to see mud taking a new form, do you guys think it could turn in a competitive deck? like rug/blade..etc? mud is strong but very doesn't have consistency, that's hard to deal sometimes.

bruizar
08-10-2012, 12:54 PM
Prototype Portal tokens have the same CMC as the copied artifact. I wondered about the same thing yesterday, and found a few explanations:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=337552

http://tappedout.net/mtg-questions/do-mimic-vat-tokens-have-a-converted-mana-cost/

The idea is that a token has 0 CMC when the CMC is not explicitely defined. But when the token is a "copy" of a card, its CMC copies the CMC of the card.


That's actually pretty sick. Awesome!




Unrelated: note that Tangle Wire does not stop the opponent from playing instants while the Tangle Wire triggers are on the stack. They could theoretically cast a StP / Krosan Grip / Shattering Spree before tapping their permanents... It's still a good lock, but not unbreakable.

Luckily Shattering Spree is a sorcery, but they could still shoot it towards the Portal with Tangle Wire if they drop a red source.

Undomian
08-10-2012, 02:01 PM
Not sure if this belongs in this thread but has anyone tried a prison build with success? This is my current build.

Mana (28)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Buried Ruin
4 City of Traitors
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Mox Diamond

Panzer (12)
2 Batterskull
2 Karn, Silver Golem
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker

Locks (14)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
2 Trinisphere

Others (6)
4 Crucible of Worlds
2 Sundial of the Infinite

I really like this deck, though still needs some fine tuning.
Smokestack goes really well with Tangle Wire and Sundial of the Infinite. If I have all three pieces on board, it is pretty much game.

Crucible of Worlds plays a huge role because I can mana lock my opponent, have a sacrifice vessel for Smokestack, or recur my lock pieces with Buried Ruin.

I decided to go with Batterskull because he is StP proof. If he does get countered or destroyed, I have Buried Ruin to fetch him back. Lifelink is always good with Ancient Tombs in my deck.

Karn is simply awesome to turn all my locks into beaters. If my opponent kills my germ token, I can turn Batterskull into a beater and before bouncing him back.

I really like this list right now. Still Tinkering with numbers and adding other cards. Though, maybe this belongs in MUD Stax, if such threads exists.

I've been playing a Staxxy list recently, though with my schedule I've not had much time to test it (and to be perfectly honest, I'm not sure if it even belongs in this thread anymore...)

Mana:
1 Academy Ruins
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
3 Mox Diamond
2 Mox Opal
4 Grim Monolith
4 Metalworker

Disruption:
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Sphere of Resistance
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Tangle Wire

Dudes:
3 Esperzoa
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Batterskull
1 Karn, Silver Golem

Utility:
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Transmute Artifact

Sideboard:
3 Cursed Totem
1 Transmute Artifact
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Trinisphere
1 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void

I've been playing around with the idea of going UB for Tezz, AoB due to his sheer power level in this kind of deck, but I'm not sure I like weakening my already delicate manabase even further by making my colored sources Wasteland-able. I'd also like to fit in a second Batterskull MB, but raising the mana curve even further and finding a cut for it (I like most of my numbers here, but your results may vary) seems iffy.

RaZe
08-10-2012, 02:02 PM
Been a long lurker of this thread, but due to difference in playstyle [prison-aggro] I didn't bother to post here. But with the current discussion, I figure I'd chime in.

In my opinion a "Stax" legacy version should start with this...


4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Lodestone Golem

The first 12 cards are to ensure 2 mana on you're first turn. Which is vital for the next 8 cards. Chalice+SoR are there for a first turn lock piece which is a necessity for "Stax". Chalice is the backbone of this deck and should only be sided out against other Stax build and decks with an actual curve [Goblins] when you are ON THE DRAW.

Lodestone is just an auto include Stax or MUD imo.

The rest differs depending on the build.

Ensnaring Bridge + Bottled Cloister / Uba Mask - the pros were posted already so I'll post the negs. Portal/Uba getting destroyed, you loose your hand. It may not be a big deal with MUD cuz it dumps its hand np, but Stax is a little different.

Smokestack + Crucible of Worlds + Tangle Wire - awesome combinations. This build really needs a good reason not to consider Karn, Silver Golem

Other cards worth considering to support the Prison build.

Wildfire
Magus of the Moon
Blood Moon



And in my opinion Prototype Portal is not a good card to consider. It's doesn't do anything on it's own. It's only good if you have tons of mana otherwise that turn you spend casting it is tempo wasted unless you already have a good lock going on. In that case I would rather cast a finisher rather than being fancy. I see it in the same boat as Goblin Welder. I either need to pass the turn for it to work when I need it now or I'm ahead already that I can be casting something better and win now.

bruizar
08-10-2012, 05:39 PM
First off, this might be better for the Bridgewalker thread, but since its also artifact related I might as well respond here


I've been playing a Staxxy list recently, though with my schedule I've not had much time to test it (and to be perfectly honest, I'm not sure if it even belongs in this thread anymore...

I am not neccesarily a big fan of the blue version to be honest. You have made several card choices which in my experience have proven to be deceptive. I hope the list works well for you, but I will try to give you some helpful feedback. I hope you don't take it the wrong way.

Jace, the Mindsculptor: If you want double colored Planeswalkers, I would rather go UB for Liliana and Tezzeret. I am not a fan of Jace in a deck like this. Not because he is not strong, but because he requires UU.

Sphere of Resistance: Delver makes Sphere of Resistance really bad. RUG operates on almost no mana, while Sphere of Resistance also negatively effects your entire deck. I would not like to play Sphere of Resistance except against combo.

3 Mox Diamond + 2 Mox Opal: I have played these for a long time and Mox Opal is really only good if it can get activated on turn 1 or at least turn 2. Otherwise, it's not real ramp. Mox Diamond is card disadvantage. This type of deck lives or dies by the opening hand, and Mox Diamond is like mulling to 6 in exchange for colorfixing. Mox Diamond is a real trap because it seems so good. This is also why I don't like Simian Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide or Lotus Petal. I have an UB list with Mox Opal that I'm currently also testing, and I think it really shines in this deck. I'll show you the list in in this post.


I've been playing around with the idea of going UB for Tezz, AoB due to his sheer power level in this kind of deck, but I'm not sure I like weakening my already delicate manabase even further by making my colored sources Wasteland-able. I'd also like to fit in a second Batterskull MB, but raising the mana curve even further and finding a cut for it (I like most of my numbers here, but your results may vary) seems iffy.

I posted a reply for you in the bridgewalker thread, so we don't derail this thread. Here it is: Planeswalker Stax thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20053-Planeswalker-Stax/page16&highlight=planeswalker+stax)

Undomian
08-11-2012, 05:59 PM
First off, this might be better for the Bridgewalker thread, but since its also artifact related I might as well respond here



I am not neccesarily a big fan of the blue version to be honest. You have made several card choices which in my experience have proven to be deceptive. I hope the list works well for you, but I will try to give you some helpful feedback. I hope you don't take it the wrong way.

Jace, the Mindsculptor: If you want double colored Planeswalkers, I would rather go UB for Liliana and Tezzeret. I am not a fan of Jace in a deck like this. Not because he is not strong, but because he requires UU.

Sphere of Resistance: Delver makes Sphere of Resistance really bad. RUG operates on almost no mana, while Sphere of Resistance also negatively effects your entire deck. I would not like to play Sphere of Resistance except against combo.

3 Mox Diamond + 2 Mox Opal: I have played these for a long time and Mox Opal is really only good if it can get activated on turn 1 or at least turn 2. Otherwise, it's not real ramp. Mox Diamond is card disadvantage. This type of deck lives or dies by the opening hand, and Mox Diamond is like mulling to 6 in exchange for colorfixing. Mox Diamond is a real trap because it seems so good. This is also why I don't like Simian Spirit Guide, Elvish Spirit Guide or Lotus Petal. I have an UB list with Mox Opal that I'm currently also testing, and I think it really shines in this deck. I'll show you the list in in this post.



I posted a reply for you in the bridgewalker thread, so we don't derail this thread. Here it is: Planeswalker Stax thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20053-Planeswalker-Stax/page16&highlight=planeswalker+stax)

My deck is probably going the route of the Bridgewalker deck, I won't deny that. Once (and if) I end up dropping Metalworker (and thereby giving up the ability to drop multiple lockpieces on a single turn early in the game), I'll be forced to redesign the deck with that in mind. Less Metalworkers - more planeswalkers, Force of Will, and such. As for your questions:

I've always gone into thinking about Mox Diamond by accepting the card disadvantage for the one extra mana on turn 1. Having two mana available on turn 1 is what seems to make or break this kind of deck, so the CDA generated by Diamond is offset by its necessity (at least in my opinion). I might agree with you on Opal; you can't count it as a ramp spell. I tend to regard it as either two mana in my hand or one blue mana on the field.

I'm not really sure where you're going with saying that Jace is bad because he costs UU. Liliana costs BB, and Tezzeret costs UB (though he is arguably more powerful than Jace here, I will agree). The main issues I have with the list you posted are really the same issues seen from different angles. You aren't running CotV, and you've opted for some rather odd choices in light of that. While I'm sure the trinket package works fine, and is probably great, you're running (once again, in my opinion) too many AIs and not enough Brainstorm. Why deny yourself access to one of the most powerful cards in Magic if you have the option to run it, especially when it allows you to get rid of the redundant cards in your deck (extra AIs, Bridges, etc). I realize that those can be pitched to Liliana, but "you can pitch it to Liliana!" is still not going to make you feel better about drawing your third copy of AI.

Your deck has probably been tuned moreso than mine has, though. I'll try to give it a run on Cockatrice.

bruizar
08-11-2012, 06:30 PM
Perhaps I should cut the thought casts for brainstorms, not sure about that. I do know that A.I. Really works overtime in this deck.

Manafixing and land drops -> pitch dead stuff to ramp mana/Mox/affinity
Expedition map->A.Ruins->map on top-guaranteed A.I. Activation or Mutavault/tabernacle
Tabernacle works A little bit like an ensnaring bridge in the sense that it slows down decks tremendously
Needles/Grafdigger's Cage help you combat deed, explosives, gsz/qasali, dredge, snapcastermage, reanimator.
Expedition map->a.ruins->expedition map on top->4x wasteland lock, then use elixir for more wastelock
Expedition map->a ruins->Map on top, pitch to a.i., engineered explosives lock
Elixir of immortality gains you 5 life each turn if you need it against burn (Tezzeret ult will probably not work cause he will bolt him).
A.i->expedition Map->a.ruins->map on top, pitch, scroll of Griselbrand wins the game easy with liliana or rings of brightheart
Without rings or liliana you can still get Mutavault and scroll and hit for 5 (3 Grislebrand, 2 Mutavault)
If opponent does anything, explosives loop takes care of it.
Rings plus liliana is also GG.
The abyss + liliana is also lethal usually, since liliana can focus on +1, and thus grow for ultimate

Jace doesn't really synergies as much with the deck as liliana, and therefore I think liliana is the way to go in this build. That said, maybe I should just cut something to add jace to the mix, I don't know. I feel like I already have enough to deal wi everything there is.

Right now, I'm still learning all the intricacies of my deck. There are so many non-obvious plays that I need to train with the deck a little longer.

Don't get me wrong. Jace will always be jace and he is bad ass, but, considering the fact that lili plays into my gameplay better and it's 3 mama instead of 4, I would rather have the lilis (4 Tezzeret and 4 jace is a stretch in the curve).

Zirath
08-11-2012, 10:32 PM
Hi guys. Top 4'd Jupiter today. Timur Babakol's the name:

http://www.jupitergamesonline.com/articles/2012/51548/nelc-decklists-august-11th-2012

I'll send a report here soon.

EDIT: And here's the report:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24437-Top-4-Jupiter-Games-s-NELC-with-MUD

Anarky87
08-12-2012, 10:09 PM
Hi guys. Top 4'd Jupiter today. Timur Babakol's the name:

http://www.jupitergamesonline.com/articles/2012/51548/nelc-decklists-august-11th-2012

I'll send a report here soon.

EDIT: And here's the report:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24437-Top-4-Jupiter-Games-s-NELC-with-MUD

Nice job, grats. I just got my Ports in the mail, so I'll be sleeving the deck up and running at our LGS here pretty soon.

SirTylerGalt
08-13-2012, 07:55 AM
I tried the Stax build on Cockatrice, with Prototype Portal + Smokestack + Tangle Wire, but I feel like Smokestack was usually too slow to stop aggro... Also, Tangle Wire would slow them down (especially with Prototype Portal), but some still killed me during upkeep by burning me in response to the "tap 10 permanents" triggers...

I've gone back to the stompy build (inspired by bruizar's build). Currently testing:


4 Chalice of the Void
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Voltaic Key
4 Grim Monolith
4 Thran Dynamo

2 Metalworker

4 Lodestone Golem
1 Moltensteel Dragon
2 Godo, Bandit Warlord
3 Batterskull
2 Phyrexian Metamorph

2 Prototype Portal
2 Karn Liberated
3 Bonfire of the Damned

4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
7 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn

SB: 3 Cursed Totem
SB: 3 Trinisphere
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Shattering Spree


Some remarks:
- Godo was awesome. It's very hard to answer a resolved Godo + Batterskull on turn 2-3.
- Bonfire is great. In one game, my opponent had enough creatures for an alpha strike next turn. During my upkeep, I look at my top 3 cards with Sensei's Top, see a Grim Monolith and a Bonfire. I put Monolith on top, then Bonfire, draw and play the Monolith. Next turn, during his upkeep, I activate top and clear his board :)
- Phyrexian Metamorph is great. It can copy a Lodestone Golem or some other threat for 3 mana. It can legend-slay Jitte and other legends. And it can copy fatties ;)
- Still need to test Prototype Portal more, since I haven't seen it a lot during my games. It should theoretically be great against control, since you often want to cast it with mana open to activate it the same turn... Which means it's hard to spell pierce / daze it. For example, I'll wait to have 8 mana, play Prototype Portal (cannot be pierced, because 4 mana open), imprint it with Lodestone Golem once it resolves, and activate it immediately to play an uncounterable Golem :)
- I wonder if I should keep the fetch lands. They help shuffle with Sensei's Top. But the life loss adds up with Ancient Tomb, and they are vulnerable to Stifle.
- I love Godo, Bonfire, and the red SB cards... But they force me to play mountains, which means I can't play utility lands such as Buried Ruin, Mishra's Factory, or Rishadan Port... I also can't play Darksteel Citadel (which comboes with Prototype Portal).


Another idea for the manabase: play fewer mountains, and add 2-3 Mox Diamond + 4 Darksteel Citadel + 4 Ghost Quarter + 2 Crucible:
- If you really need a red mana source, you can fetch a mountain with Ghost Quarter, by targeting one of your lands. You can target a Darksteel Citadel (which is indestructible :) ), a City of Traitors (play Ghost Quarter, destroy city in response to the sacrifice trigger), or a land targeted by an opponent's wasteland.
- You can waste-lock your opponent. Ghost Quarter helps destroy basic lands (since most decks only play a few basics).
- You can replay your City Of Traitors and the lands discarded to Mox Diamond
- Buried Ruin could also be considered, but you'd lose red mana sources...

bruizar
08-13-2012, 08:47 AM
Interesting thoughts Tyler. The reason why I haven't started playing with Prototype Portal is because it might be too hard to splash a color for it, and I'm currently putting my energy in the Godo build. That said, I will durdle around with it until I have something viable. Purely from a card strength perspective, I think Prototype Portal has what it takes to be awesome. Your ideas with Ghost Quarter and Mox Diamond are intrueging. I'm glad you are appreciating the power of Godo and Bonfire. Especially Godo solves a lot of problem this deck used to have (basically, plow/jace). Bonfire is just gravy. I've Bonfired for 12 on more than 1 occasion, and even though Fireball isn't the most sophisticated card in the game, it works surprisingly well with all that mana ramp laying around :). I also had a game where I played Lodestone Golem, followed up with a bonfire for 4, then miracled into a bonfire for 6 and won. Lodestone Golem did the remaining 10 damage with no creatures to block him.

If you're going for a heavy mountain build which is what I am doing right now, you could take these snow-cards into consideration.

Mouth of Ronom
Glacial Crevasse
Sunstone
Scrying Sheets
Rimescale Dragon

Sunstone is only better than Glacial Crevasse if you're playing with Metalcraft or Mouth of Ronom/Scrying Sheets. If that is not the case, Glacial Crevasse is better. (edit: not true, metalworker loves Sunstone more than Glacial Crevasse).

Mouth of Ronom is an answer against Gaddock Teeg

I don't think Rimescale Dragon is particularly feasible. It costs as much as Karn Liberated and can dominate the board easily, but we already have Karn ofcourse and this costs RR. Still, I wanted to mention it because it's about the splashiest snow card there is, and its in our color. Rimescale Dragon is unaffected by Gaddock Teeg, while Karn is, but this still seems a little too narrow. All is Dust also costs 7 mana, but is unavailable with Teeg in play.

Scrying Sheets is a card advantage engine, but playing with this would require the deck to play more tops and perhaps more snow permanents, so I'm not sure if this is feasible. That said, MUD has a notoriously poor card advantage engines, so although this one is bad, it might be good enough. Personally, I think the utility from Mouth of Ronom is much higher (even though I'm not sure yet if that's good enough). These snow cards are minor ofcourse, but the advantage of snow permanents is a slightly bigger card pool so why not see if there is anything useful there.