[Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

[whiley85]

This is correct but was not my suggestion. Cc1 removal is replaced by snuff out atm which is 100% faster than demise. Also strix is 30% faster than scm and agent takes profit from it while being 25% faster.

[Esper3k]

The matches I had with shardless BUG I actually didn't have time to wait until T4 for casting agent or do some setup to make him good. You weaken your cascading action with snapcaster and demise. Every turn you wait Hymn becomes much less powerful it's one of your keyspells.
Due to cutting a lot cc1 spells you are obviously slower than other builds. Therefore my try to compensate with free removal that doesn't trigger by cascading.

Strix is a fast answer for so many threads i.e. Batterskull.
It felt so great yesterday against RUG when he had 2 mongoose and goyf facing my strix and goyf.
Strix is a bit weaker against control but see my other post control is not the biggest problem you have even with strix.

Really no offense but your only time is my every time. You need to be faster against aggro, control is much better naturally with all your CA.

I think lackey is not a reason to play demise since you only play 3 and also need a fetch to handle him. Side in some BEBs if you fear Goblins in your meta.

Yeah, but you're playing free removal that costs you a significant chunk of your life, which is really bad against aggro. Also, against Aggro decks, I don't want to cascade into Hymn - cascading into removal is great because you're removing one of their threats that are on the board and buying yourself more time.

My problem with Strix against aggro is that it doesn't necessarily kill one of their guys. If they use a removal spell on it, yes you've gained some card advantage, but you also haven't killed one of their guys, which is generally more important when fighting aggro.

Again, even in the worst case scenerio of having to cascade on T3 with no setup, your odds of hitting a Snapcaster are very low since the original list only plays 2.


If you ignore a mother because you have deed, than you accept all the other creatures coming into play: Thalia, Knight, Pridemage. Everything will live - your deed plan might fail and you loose the game. I don't think you should ignore a mother.

No doubt you're allowing everything else to stick unless you have Force of Will. I was just saying though that generally speaking, I'm more afraid of a T1 Lackey than a T1 Mother.

If they have the nut hand of T1 Mother, T2 Thalia then sure that's rough on your Deed hand. It's really the T2 Thalia protected by Mother that's rough on you. If they don't have Thalia, you're generally going to still have time to Deed them out.

This list is one of those control lists where I think actually keeping in FoW against Aggro is correct even though it goes against conventional wisdom for boarding blue control decks.



Blue elemental blast while beeing good versus goblins and burning wish decks is too
narrow. playing control you need answers agains all tribes and all strategies.

My conclusion: If you want to win a fair fight, you cannot ignore a mother or a lakey.

-> Therefore a significant amout of 1cc removal is critical. Also it is also important for snapcaster. You are able generate a tempo advantage by playing more efficient spells...
Decay will be a staple, but you cannot just replace all 1cc removal with it.

That being said, as in my post above, I also would not remove ALL the Ghastly Demises, keeping like 2-3 in the 75 just in case you do have to still deal with those T1 Mother/Lackeys.

I'm not certain that 4x Abrupt Decay is correct. I'm looking at maybe 2-3 in the 75?

[Zalren]

I'm not certain that 4x Abrupt Decay is correct. I'm looking at maybe 2-3 in the 75?
Try it out. 4 x Abrupt Decay is amazing. Being uncounterable is a big deal.

I think I am going to change my list to sneak in Baleful Strix.

-1 Vraska the Unseen
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-2 Maelstrom Pulse
+4 Baleful Strix

Just to see what happens.

[Esper3k]

Try it out. 4 x Abrupt Decay is amazing. Being uncounterable is a big deal.

I think I am going to change my list to sneak in Baleful Strix.

-1 Vraska the Unseen
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-2 Maelstrom Pulse
+4 Baleful Strix

Just to see what happens.

Don't get me wrong, I think Abrupt Decay is amazing too. I just think it serves a slightly different purpose than Ghastly Demise (and other 1 mana / free removal spells) do.

Imo, Abrupt Decay is for fighting the blue tempo decks / decks with black creatures whereas Ghastly Demise is for fighting faster aggro decks or decks that play Mother of Runes.

[Kyle]

I revisited the Shardless version, removing the Snapcasters, Jaces, and Vendilion Cliques and replacing with Baleful Strix, Scavenging Ooze and Wrench Minds. What I found is that this deck needs more 1- and 2-drops that actually help. So far my testing has been friggin' dynamite and I have a win rate 11-3.

For the record I am not bragging - this could be a great streak of luck, but it could mean that this deck has potential in some metas. Here are my wins and losses, as well as notes for how I achieved each win. Overall note: Ancestral Visions and Tarmogoyf are ridiculous in this deck, with or without cascading into them, and played a huge factor in almost every win on this list. For a deck that does a great job stalling, a first-turn (fourth-turn-unanswered) Visions is absolutely devastating to your opponent. I've had a few games where a mid-game Vision grabbed me a Tarmogoyf (which lands at 5/6 or 6/7), Hymn, and Shardless Agent and I had enough land to cast everything.

Wins:
U/W Stoneblade (Hymn + enough creature kill)
U/W Miracles (Deed does it)
BUW Stoneblade (Hymn)
GWB Junk/Rock (Hymn)
RUG Canadian Thresh (creature kill, plus "uncounterable" cascade)
Maverick (creature kill, Strix)
Monoblack Control (Hymn, FoW, Visions)
Death & Taxes (Deed)
Goblins (Creature kill, Deed, Tarmogoyf, Strix)
Red/Black Land Destruction (deck runs 24+ lands)
Affinity (Artifact Lands can't stand up to a Deed)

Losses:
- Monored Burn (not much of an answer because this deck plays the long game, hence the Chills in the SB.
- Charbelcher with Reforge the Soul (could have been just unlucky for me, my Hymns helped a lot until opponent topdecked RtS.
- Doomsday (if you play a deck that runs the "long game" with only one real counter (FoW), Doomsday is a real pain)

Here's my tweaked decklist. I keep on tweaking as I find it needs it. Also, I haven't had a single problem running 3 basics (Island, Swamp, Forest). This deck needs one thing: consistency. I found this sorely missing by having 2x Jace, 2x Snapcaster, and 2x Vendilion Clique. After making these adjustments, the deck runs great.

Also, this deck is more Aggro-Control, yes?

// Artifacts
2 Sensei's Divining Top

// Creatures
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Baleful Strix

// Enchantments
3 Pernicious Deed

// Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Diabolic Edict

// Sorceries
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Wrench Mind

// Lands
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

//Sideboard

1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Cursed Totem
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Dismember
3 Thoughseize
2 Chill

[Esper3k]

Went 2-2 this past weekend with DeMars' original Shardless list.

Lost to Maverick (my own build I was lending to my friend that was more anti-control due to our meta) and to a rogue UB tempo Stifle-naught list.

Most of my losses came from simply missing land drops (Top / Brainstorm, see no lands - doh!). Generally speaking, I feel that if we make our first 3-4 land drops, I feel like we're in really good shape and have a tough time losing as long as we've been playing disruption as well.

I've been having a real tough time trying to decide what I want to take out to fit in Abrupt Decay.

As I've been playing the deck more, I've actually been liking the Krosan Grips in the board, especially against the Uw control decks. Gripping their Top really hurts a lot of that deck's strategy and really lowers their effectiveness since they can't take advantage of all their shuffle effects and you don't have to worry about Terminus / Entreat on your turn when you're attacking.

I've been looking at doing -1 Ghastly Demise / +1 Abrupt Decay main and -1 Ghastly, -1 GFTT / +2 Abrupt Decay in the side for now?

[wcm8]

I revisited the Shardless version, Here's my tweaked decklist.

Okay, so I like where you are taking the deck. I am not sure about the low number of one-drops though. It seems like if you are on the draw and keep a hand without much action, you can very quickly get run over by an aggressive start by your opponent.

Given the high density of color requirements, I wonder if Wasteland is really needed, or at least as 4 copies. This isn't based on any testing, but given how the deck tends to go later in the game, it may make sense to cut them for additional colored sources and maybe run 1 Dust Bowl as a method of getting rid of utility lands.

The sideboard looks interesting, but I am not so sure about Relic over Nihil Spellbomb. Relic is nice early in the game, but against certain decks where you -need- GY hate, I think Nihil may just be better while not shrinking your own Tarmogoyfs.

Vendilion Clique is definitely worth reconsidering, especially against control and combo. Clique functions as an additional disruptive element to go along with your discard. I would probably still play 1 or 2 copies somewhere in the 75, possible in the Wrench Mind slots.

I think it goes without saying that Abrupt Decay definitely needs to be considered once RtR is legal.

Finally, I would definitely want to reconsider adding at least 1 Jace back into the deck somewhere, possibly in the SB againt grinding matchups.

[Zalren]

Just played this past weekend with some friends. Casual, not tournament play, but they all use decks taken off the internet. Plus we have been playing for 15 years together, so we are pretty good (I think). Using this list:

Lands - 23
1 x Island
1 x Forest
1 x Swamp
1 x Academy Ruins
4 x Misty Rainforest
4 x Polluted Delta
4 x Verdant Catacombs
2 x Bayou
2 x Tropical Island
3 x Underground Sea

Enchantments - 3
3 x Pernicious Deed

Creatures - 12
4 x Shardless Agent
4 x Tarmogoyf
4 x Baleful Strix

Artifacts - 1
1 x Engineered Explosives

Planeswalkers - 5
2 x Lilianna of the Veil
3 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Spells - 16
4 x Abrupt Decay (proxy to try them out)
4 x Ancestral Visions
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Hymn to Tourach

I never lost a game. I played against U/W Miracles, Nic Fit, Berserk Stompy, and White Weenie.

Planeswalkers are a must, I believe. They are just so powerful. Also Ancestral Vision is crazy good. I really want to take this list to a tournament but hardly any Legacy in my area.

[Kyle]

It seems like if you are on the draw and keep a hand without much action, you can very quickly get run over by an aggressive start by your opponent.

The cards we're concerned about turn 1 are Lackey, Vial, and Mom. On the draw I hope to keep a hand with FoW and another blue card, or ghastly demise. But there within lies the problem - what other one-drops or free spells are there that can answer those things on the draw?



maybe run 1 Dust Bowl as a method of getting rid of utility lands.

I've been pretty happy with the manabase (even with the 3 basics) and have been wastelocked only in a G1 against RUG. The only time I ever have problems are looking for BB for Hymn and Wrench Mind. I've been very happy with Wasteland, it works as well as it does in Maverick in this deck.


The sideboard looks interesting, but I am not so sure about Relic over Nihil Spellbomb. Relic is nice early in the game, but against certain decks where you -need- GY hate, I think Spellbomb may just be better while not shrinking your own Tarmogoyfs.

Note taken, I am going to switch out for Nihil Spellbombs - at least they cycle too.


Vendilion Clique is definitely worth reconsidering, especially against control and combo. Clique functions as an additional disruptive element to go along with your discard. I would probably still play 1 or 2 copies somewhere in the 75, possible in the Wrench Mind slots.

I found myself never needing or casting Clique, since you can't cascade into it. Don't get me wrong, I love Clique, I just think that for the synergy in this deck it's unncessary. I'd rather have more 1-drop disruption (Inquisition of Kozilek, Thoughtseize, or Duress). But I'll give them a shot - they might help in the Omni-Show matchups.


I think it goes without saying that Abrupt Decay definitely needs to be considered once RtR is legal.

Agreed. It will be part of the 75 and will probably replace the Wrench Minds. Keep in mind, the only reason I use Wrench Mind is because for the matches where you really need to empty someone's hand (Burn, Charbelcher, Storm), they really help extend the help you're already getting from Hymn. I have re-fallen in love with Hymn.


Finally, I would definitely want to reconsider adding at least 1 Jace back into the deck somewhere, possibly in the SB against grinding matchups.

Similar to the Cliques, I found myself never landing a Jace and think it just takes up space. Also, I love Jace (and use him in my normal BUG Control as my main win-con). As extra control, removal of opposing Jaces, or an extra win-con I can understand, as sweepers like Terminus can hurt us a bit (since the deck is more aggro) and with the printing of Supreme Verdict may make this deck less viable. I'm torn on this one.


EDIT: Throwing V-Cliques in again was a good idea. It's amazing against Omni-Show and SnT.

[xfxf]

This deck doesn't seem to make much use of Jace. You already have enough card advantage so the brainstorm ability isn't that great and there can be better options as a finisher than his fateseal. If you are playing Jace for the creature bounce and as a finisher what about Vraska?

[troopatroop]

I bet I can win 7 or 8 games out of 10 with Goblins against you ;P

[Kyle]

@bilb_o: Yeah, I'm looking forward to trying Vraska out once the dust has settled and she goes down in price. She's way overpriced right now.

@troopatroop: I'm not going to deny that Goblins has been one of the biggest challenges for many varieties of BUG, and would love to playtest against Goblins if you're up for it on Cockatrice. Goblins is huge in my meta - 2 out of 5 players play it in any given tournament. A win against Gobbos is very draw-dependent, but I will say I am happy with 9 out of 10 initial draws with this variety.

[metronome2charisma]

deathrite shaman seems way to good not to play..it i'm gunna test it

[whiley85]

He's utility par excellence, can be played either aggressive against slow decks or controlish against fast decks. Ramp and lifegain in one card, also strong in early AND mid game.
The only issue is you always loose him to deed.

[Esper3k]

Against Aether Vials, we will soon be getting Abrupt Decay which will be fine since we'll have it online before they can really start dropping things with Vial. If we want, we can even use it to kill the Vials as well.

Ghastly is really there for Mother of Runes and Lackey when we're on the draw.

I personally have really liked Jace and sometimes wish for more. Of course, my meta is pretty infested with control right now. In the UW Miracles match, the Shardless version seems to win with 2 ways - grinding out card advantage with almost every spell and forcing them to Terminus or die with our threats or we can win the way the more controlling version does with Deed + Planeswalker.

[catmint]

I love strix!

If you want to play strix and ooze and goyf and shardless into stuff, maybe this deck is better off beeing a midrange deck with tons of card advantage and put the deeds to the sideboard for some transformation? (just thoughts - never played shardless)

[metronome2charisma]

He's utility par excellence, can be played either aggressive against slow decks or controlish against fast decks. Ramp and lifegain in one card, also strong in early AND mid game.
The only issue is you always loose him to deed.

heres my thinking...i thought well i played 2 ooze main for a minute then when i really got to know the deck i realized the only thing that we could do to make this deck better is to make it a turn faster..lotus petal and vet.explorer(with cabal therepy and innocent blood) both went through my mind..but this guy not only makes knight managable ,goyf worse gains life, ramps and makes reanimator (and anything realying on graveyards at all)worse...just seems like it might be woorth testing ..it dosn't really matter that deed wipes it out..if we drop jace turn three we don't NEED it anymore.
also..
i like lilly in this deck as at least a two of and maybe three of. i like three deeds mainboard and three snapcasters..i think two is the rite number on lilly md..any way i think that the shamans ability to eat a fetch turn two for a lilly or deed or pulse is really good..and being able to do it next turn is amazing...those are my thoughts.:smile:

[Chikenbok]

heres my thinking...i thought well i played 2 ooze main for a minute then when i really got to know the deck i realized the only thing that we could do to make this deck better is to make it a turn faster..lotus petal and vet.explorer(with cabal therepy and innocent blood) both went through my mind..but this guy not only makes knight managable ,goyf worse gains life, ramps and makes reanimator (and anything realying on graveyards at all)worse...just seems like it might be woorth testing ..it dosn't really matter that deed wipes it out..if we drop jace turn three we don't NEED it anymore.
also..
i like lilly in this deck as at least a two of and maybe three of. i like three deeds mainboard and three snapcasters..i think two is the rite number on lilly md..any way i think that the shamans ability to eat a fetch turn two for a lilly or deed or pulse is really good..and being able to do it next turn is amazing...those are my thoughts.:smile:

What.?

On another note, anyone out there not playing the shardless variant? I'm still not sold on it, and haven't felt it giving me a leg up in any situation or versus any deck and my only attachment to Hymn is emotional, and not functional.

RE - OG Bug controll: I've upped my Mishra's count to 3 and my fetch count down to 7. All of my thoughtseizes have become Inquisitions -- I'm trying to do this thing called not helping my opponent kill me in one of the grindiest games imaginable. I'm still on 2 MD standstills which, if played well, are absolutely amazing.

Regarding Abrupt Decay. I'm not certain I'm going to change anything from the MD to accommodate the card, I really just dont think its worth the spots. Ghastly Demise and Innocent blood do the job just as well against things that we care about. However, I will be making room in my sideboard to fit two of them in there against randomshitIdon'twanttodealwith.dec

SB:

2 x Night of Soul's Betrayal
1 x Darkblast
2 x Vendilion Clique
2 x Flusterstorm
1 x Ancient Grudge
2 x Abrupt Decay
2 x Surgical Extraction
2 x Relic of Progenitus // switching back and forth between this and Cage
1 x Damnation

[xfxf]

In the limited testing I've done I saw that the Shardless agent version have the ability to just overpower sometimes. I don't know how exactly to describe the games but that's really what happens. I tested it against my mandatory High Tide and I saw that unless High Tide draws extremely bad and Shardless version can land Hymn after Hymn there's really no way that it can pull the game away, yet it can just go nuts in some games. It's certainly a strange deck, I really couldn't put my finger on it.

[Chikenbok]

In the limited testing I've done I saw that the Shardless agent version have the ability to just overpower sometimes. I don't know how exactly to describe the games but that's really what happens. I tested it against my mandatory High Tide and I saw that unless High Tide draws extremely bad and Shardless version can land Hymn after Hymn there's really no way that it can pull the game away, yet it can just go nuts in some games. It's certainly a strange deck, I really couldn't put my finger on it.

I mean, I won't disagree, having been on the receiving end of multiple hymns and the giving end of multiple hymns, the card is insane when you can forcibly jam them down people's throats. And mind you, I tested the hell out of the shardless version, perhaps it just wasn't 'for me' but its definitely a deck of its own, and one which I personally, don't think has much of a leg up against good ole BUG control.

[Koby]

The experience you're describing is called variance. Cascade has a high degree of variance. Unless you take the extra time/mana to setup the Cascade, you're going to run into those weird "oops I win" moments just like BBE -> Blightning resulted in.

[wcm8]

SB:

2 x Night of Soul's Betrayal
1 x Darkblast
2 x Vendilion Clique
2 x Flusterstorm
1 x Ancient Grudge
2 x Abrupt Decay
2 x Surgical Extraction
2 x Relic of Progenitus // switching back and forth between this and Cage
1 x Damnation


I'm assuming Grudge should be Krosan Grip?

[Esper3k]

Yeah, I've been enjoying how it feels like you have game against most decks in the field.

Against combo, playing a deck that's running 4x Hymn, 4x Force, 3x Thoughtseize, 3x Clique, 2x Snapcaster (for your Hymns and Thoughtseizes) while beating face with a Tarmogoyf really feels like cheating.

[Chikenbok]

I'm assuming Grudge should be Krosan Grip?

Nature's Claim actually for those abhorrent 'choke' situations in which you have an untapped green source and 15 tapped blue sources. AD will easily replace grip in the SB.

[Chikenbok]

The experience you're describing is called variance. Cascade has a high degree of variance. Unless you take the extra time/mana to setup the Cascade, you're going to run into those weird "oops I win" moments just like BBE -> Blightning resulted in.

... I was hoping I'd never have to even think about those dark times again....

But yes, this is exactly what I've been trying to point out -- unless you take the time and mana to set up your cascades, you're essentially rolling a die and, cascading into hymn when you're looking at lethal on the board (when all you needed was that darned ghastly demise!) is a bit of a bummer. However, because the shardless version runs things like goyf/beats/etc, it has more 'time' to setup relevant spells for a given boardstate. This is why I really feel that fundamentally, they're completely different decks.

BUG control functions on a 'every spell counts and every mana spent matters' type of playstyle (Think.. Jean Jacques Rousseau) whereas Shardless Agent allows the deck to work on a, 'well, lets hope this gets there' methodology by abusing early walls, early hand disruption, and cheap efficient cascading spells (Think.. Jaques Derrida or Jean-Luc Nancy)

I will however, still stand by my statement that I've found in testing - the shardless version has not given me any serious leg up against any match that can't be deal with in the BUG control list + sideboard.

[Kyle]

I love strix!

If you want to play strix and ooze and goyf and shardless into stuff, maybe this deck is better off beeing a midrange deck with tons of card advantage and put the deeds to the sideboard for some transformation? (just thoughts - never played shardless)

I started really digging the Shardless version once I threw the Strixes in - it makes your opponents annoyed.

And I have definitely found that this is a great midrange deck and has beautiful CA.

My number one enemy so far has been Misdirection!

[metronome2charisma]

I started really digging the Shardless version once I threw the Strixes in - it makes your opponents annoyed.

And I have definitely found that this is a great midrange deck and has beautiful CA.

My number one enemy so far has been Misdirection!

I really think the shardless build should have another thread

[Chikenbok]

I really think the shardless build should have another thread

I guess the subtlety at which I've been hinting at this for the past several pages wasn't direct enough. Thank you, and yes, it should.

[Kyle]

I guess the subtlety at which I've been hinting at this for the past several pages wasn't direct enough. Thank you, and yes, it should.

Just posted a primer (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24698-Deck-BUG-quot-Shardless-quot-Control) in Developmental Decks for the Shardless version if you're interested. This will keep conversation about it away from here.

I agree, the decks are very different and you can hardly call the Shardless version "Team America."

[xfxf]

For all I know the new BUG Death's Shadow deck is more Team America than BUG Shardless deck. At least it's a tempo deck like the actual Team America from last year.

[metronome2charisma]

For all I know the new BUG Death's Shadow deck is more Team America than BUG Shardless deck. At least it's a tempo deck like the actual Team America from last year.

i've been thinking the same thing

[Kyle]

Given how tight the creatureless version is, what does everyone think Abrupt Decay should replace in the 75 and how many should be used? I'm thinking 2 is the magic number.

[Chikenbok]

Given how tight the creatureless version is, what does everyone think Abrupt Decay should replace in the 75 and how many should be used? I'm thinking 2 is the magic number.

I'm agreed on 2 -- However, I don't necessarily think they're going to make it in the MD, there's simply nothing I want to cut (perhaps a snapcaster or a counterspell?) If I can't find room for 1 in the MD I'm just jamming 2 into the SB, probably cutting a sweeper and a grip.

[Chikenbok]

Because of the recent increase in critters running around, I've added a Garruk Relentless to the MD and cut 1 Liliana -- so far in testing he's been a beast for anyone trying to sit on the ground and plays really well with standstill.

[metronome2charisma]

I was meaning to test garuk but havn't..
i think im going to drop one deed and one pulse for abrupt decay and see if i like them then maybe move all the pulses to the board and play three main.and one pulse in the board We'll see

[RBS]

No love for Snapcaster Mage builds?
Abrupt Decay is a mandatory 4-of in Team Tiago decks.

Example:

4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam
3 Jace TMS
2 Liliana OTV

2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Underground Sea
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

In my opinion with Abrupt Decay the deck don't need to run Pernicious Deed MD anymore. You can easily beat Canadian Threshold with this removal.
However turn 1 Mom from Maverick OTD can be tricky. I wonder if a 4-of Mox Diamond / 24 lands build could be better about this.

[catmint]

I am thinking about rocking my old 4 goyf, 4 snapcaster, 4 Hymn version again.
Guess abrupt decay solves some problems against the other top blue decks.

[mike1987]

Seeing that decay is soon playable, i started tinkering with a bug list.

Lands
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground sea
3 Wasteland
1 Drowned catacomb
2 Creeping Tar pit
4 Polluted delta
3 Misty rainforest
1 Verdant catacomb

3 Snapcaster mage
2 Vendillion clique

4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
2 Spell pierce
2 Diabolic edict
1 Ghastly Demise
3 Abrupt decay

2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the loam
2 Innocent blood
2 Preordain
1 Damnation

1 Pernicious deed

3 Jace, TMS
2 Liliana of the veil


Didnt go with the shardless version as the variance is high, prefer a more consistent kinda build, what do you guys think?

[Chikenbok]

That's a whole lotta removal - counting 11 including lili's.

Be weary of non-targeted removal that comes in the form of 'not-pernicious-deed'.

The list looks good, although I would perhaps make the following changes:

-1 Drowned catacomb
-1 Creeping tar Pit
-1 Abrupt Decay
-1 Diabolic Edict
-1 Damnation
-1 Preordain

+2 Misrha's Factory
+1 Ghastly Demise
+2 Pernicious Deed
+1 Force of Will

Unless you're playing in a field that's 100% Sneakie decks and Counterbalance.

I'll continue playing my old list with -1 Spell Snare +1 Abrupt Decay MD.

[Chikenbok]

Bam Bam thank you ma'am:


3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
3 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Spell Snare
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Life from the Loam

4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Swamp
1 Island



2 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Darkblast
1 Perish
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Envelop
2 Ancestral Vision



Vision in the board has been great vs. UW durdle.dec and having access to Decay in the MD and from the board lets me run less Perish in the board, opening up some slots for fun. However, I'm not certain I'm happy cutting the standstills, there's a small chance I'll cut -1 spell pierce +1 standstill to the list but... we'll see.

Anyway, I don't understand how this deck isn't the best thing since fake celebrity nudes made their way on to the internet.

[DerFern]

Anyway, I don't understand how this deck isn't the best thing since fake celebrity nudes made their way on to the internet.

<3

However, I´ll take a different approach in case my cards from RtR arrive today. I´ll squeeze in 2 Vraska and 4 Deathrite Shaman, since I really liked them in theory. Turn 2 Lilly or Deed seems too strong not to run it.

[mike1987]

That's a whole lotta removal - counting 11 including lili's.

Be weary of non-targeted removal that comes in the form of 'not-pernicious-deed'.

The list looks good, although I would perhaps make the following changes:

-1 Drowned catacomb
-1 Creeping tar Pit
-1 Abrupt Decay
-1 Diabolic Edict
-1 Damnation
-1 Preordain

+2 Misrha's Factory
+1 Ghastly Demise
+2 Pernicious Deed
+1 Force of Will

Unless you're playing in a field that's 100% Sneakie decks and Counterbalance.

I'll continue playing my old list with -1 Spell Snare +1 Abrupt Decay MD.

Thanks for the suggestions, nice list you have there. Did some tweaks to mine too.

4 Polluted delta
3 Misty rainforest
1 Verdant catacombs
3 Underground sea
3 Tropical island
1 Bayou
1 Creeping tar pit
2 Mishra's factory
3 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Swamp

3 Snapcaster mage

3 Force of will
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell pierce
2 Spell snare
3 Abrupt decay
2 Counterspell

3 Innocent blood
2 IoK
2 Thoughtseize
1 Life from the loam
1 Maelstrom pulse
1 Damnation

1 Sensei's Divining top
2 Pernicious deed

3 Jace, TMS
2 Liliana of the veil

Snapcastering into decay just rocks. I am trying to find room for one more deed but can't really make up my mind. Perhaps a decay or a snapcaster i think.

[DerFern]

Went 4-2 in a 44 people tournament this past saturday with the control variant including 2 Vraska the Unseen and 3 Standstill. No Abrupt Decays, since I´m still not that impressed yet. I feel a little betrayed for the both losses (Belcher and Goblins, dafuq?!) after starting 3-0 again, but sometimes life is just like this. Ended up 8th place, which got me a Vendilion Clique. Hooray!

Vraska was awesome whenever I had her. -3 to destroy target JTMS is just incredible and won several games along the way. I think I´m going to tweak this route a little more, but BUG Walker seems like a decent choice right now. Maybe I need a fourth Deed maindeck to maximize on board control. Not sure yet...

[danyul]

Could you post a list? Did you end up running Deathrite Shaman? How did that work out? I'm also on the Deedstill plan but I'm running 3 Abrupt Decay main, 1 side. And 1 Vraska main. I like them so far. But my list is still constantly being changed.

[DerFern]

Could you post a list? Did you end up running Deathrite Shaman? How did that work out? I'm also on the Deedstill plan but I'm running 3 Abrupt Decay main, 1 side. And 1 Vraska main. I like them so far. But my list is still constantly being changed.

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Standstill

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the mind sculptor
2 Vraska the Unseen

2 Snapcaster Mage

3 Innocent Blood
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm

no Shamans in there, since they did not arrive yet. However, as I said above I´ll try to squeeze the fourth Deed in there, so Shamans will most likely not be in this list anytime soon.

[Chikenbok]

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Standstill

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the mind sculptor
2 Vraska the Unseen

2 Snapcaster Mage

3 Innocent Blood
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm

no Shamans in there, since they did not arrive yet. However, as I said above I´ll try to squeeze the fourth Deed in there, so Shamans will most likely not be in this list anytime soon.

Since you're going with 3 Standstills you can cut a piece of discard or two and get em to the board. Generally, the point of running standstills is that your opponents hand is largely irrelevant considering you'll draw into an answer to whatever they might play.

With that in mind, you could consider either cutting the IoK for he 4th deed, or going down to 2 Standstill for the 4th deed. Also, you need the 3rd Jace. Vraska is great, but c'mon.... 2 jace...?! I'd MUCH sooner go down to 2 lili than ever cut a jace from the deck, its 90% of the wins.

[DerFern]

With that in mind, you could consider either cutting the IoK for he 4th deed, or going down to 2 Standstill for the 4th deed.
yeah, thought about IoK, too. Thanks for the suggestion, that makes sense.


Also, you need the 3rd Jace. Vraska is great, but c'mon.... 2 jace...?! I'd MUCH sooner go down to 2 lili than ever cut a jace from the deck, its 90% of the wins.
it is 90% of the wins, that is true. However, I often came into situations where my Jace was only there to remove an opposing Jace and vice versa. And I did play with three of them up until this past weekend.
This deck is awesome at controlling the board and removing any threat out there, but sometimes you just run out of gas and have to fight on the stack. I want more ways to deal with the threat and then drop my winning option, that´s why I chose this way right now. By no means this decision will last forever, but right now I´ll give this some more tries.

[RJM]

I actually like a single EE over the 4th Deed most of the time.

[Koby]

I actually like a single EE over the 4th Deed most of the time.

I can get behind this as well. Being able to nuke Vial as early as turn 2 helps a ton more than having the flexibility to sweep the entire board after Turn 4.

Looks like I lucked out on some Abrupt Decays off the electronic bays, so I'm rebuilding this deck. General purpose removal (a la Putrefy) should turn around the Tribal matchup much more than before.

My removal suite is:

2 Ghastly Demise
3 Innocent Blood
2 Abrupt Decay
1 EE
3 Pernicious Deed

This leaves relatively few permanents that the deck won't be able to interact with outside the stack:
Jace, TMS; Elspeth; and other 4cc+ 'walkers
Batterskull (to a degree)
Sneak Attack

Since the removal is now heavier into :b:, I like the change of going 2 Bayou 2 Tropical to account for the extra green cards.
Turns out Burn is still a bad matchup, but that's how this deck rolls.

[Chikenbok]

I can get behind this as well. Being able to nuke Vial as early as turn 2 helps a ton more than having the flexibility to sweep the entire board after Turn 4.

Looks like I lucked out on some Abrupt Decays off the electronic bays, so I'm rebuilding this deck. General purpose removal (a la Putrefy) should turn around the Tribal matchup much more than before.

My removal suite is:

2 Ghastly Demise
3 Innocent Blood
2 Abrupt Decay
1 EE
3 Pernicious Deed

This leaves relatively few permanents that the deck won't be able to interact with outside the stack:
Jace, TMS; Elspeth; and other 4cc+ 'walkers
Batterskull (to a degree)
Sneak Attack

Since the removal is now heavier into :b:, I like the change of going 2 Bayou 2 Tropical to account for the extra green cards.
Turns out Burn is still a bad matchup, but that's how this deck rolls.

EE has been in my board for a while but I've found that Pulse + Counters can deal with the majority of the problem of the permanents you've talked about. As we all know, the worst way to deal with a resolved jace opposing us is with a jace of our own -- pulse can really help in the situation.

Skull can be dealt with long enough using deed and innocent bloods until you can get rid of the thing.

Land wise, I've been running 2 Bayou 2 Trop 4 Usea for a while now and its been pretty perfect, still not sold on Vraska main deck though.

[bfeingersh]

Hey guys, came up with this list late sunday night and ran it through a ~30 person tournament yesterday to a top 8 (unfortunately lost to UW miracles in the QFs).

2 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Standstill
1 Life from the Loam

3 Jace the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize

3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Mana Leak
1 Counterspell

2 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Diabolic Edict

4 Brainstorm

1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Bayou
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island

SB:
4 Dark Confidant
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Perish
1 Damnation
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Krosan Grip
1 Force of Will
1 Darkblast
1 Dread of Night
1 Duress

Potential changes: -3 Still -1 Pulse -1 Pierce +3 Visions +1 ADecay +1 Snapcaster (SB -1 DoNight +1 Eplague)

Standstills were embarrassingly bad and if I run this at SCG providence this weekend (likely) I'll be playing ancestral visions in their place.

[Koby]

It's been mentioned before (maybe catmint championed it), that running Tarmogoyf in the SB to add a clock in matchups where a clock is needed (Combo/Burn) might be the way to go. I continually find counterspells to be lacking against decks that run Cavern of Souls too, and not enough cards to bring in.

[bfeingersh]

We had Goyfs in the sideboard originally but came to the conclusion that Bobs provide more of a threat to the combo/control matchups where you're bringing them in so we went with those. I was very very happy with them (except in the QF match when my opponent kept plowshares and terminus in post board :cry:)

Goyfs > Bobs against burn and goblins, which as I mentioned on twitter to Koby seem like the worst matchups imaginable

[Koby]

I don't think I'm concerned with control mirrors (a resolved Deed > Miracles).
I'm concerned about decks where going long is going to be a liability (combo, burn/speed aggro). Against those decks, having a 3/4 goyf is more than enough to put pressure on the table and back it up with discard/soft counters.

I do appreciate Dark Confidant doing awesome things, but my real concern is being able to also board in the <creature package> against decks that run Cavern of Souls.

[Chikenbok]

I don't think I'm concerned with control mirrors (a resolved Deed > Miracles).
I'm concerned about decks where going long is going to be a liability (combo, burn/speed aggro). Against those decks, having a 3/4 goyf is more than enough to put pressure on the table and back it up with discard/soft counters.

I do appreciate Dark Confidant doing awesome things, but my real concern is being able to also board in the <creature package> against decks that run Cavern of Souls.

Decks that run Cavern of Souls can't deal with NoSB/Darkblast + Board Sweeps. I am considering adding a few Confidants back to the board so I have a clock against combo for, as you said, it is a bit obnoxious giving them all the time in the world to sculpt a hand, albeit, we do have Liliana/loam and/or Raven's Crime/Loam to keep their hands on edge.

[xfxf]

A midrange list with 4 Abrupt Decays Top8ed the French National Legacy Cup:
http://www.watchdamatch.com/coverage/finale-cdf-legacy/

1 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea

2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Diabolic Edict
2 Ghastly Demise
3 Spell Pierce
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Ponder
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize

Sideboard
1 Thoughtseize
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Engineered Plague
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Counterspell
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sylvan Library
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

[mike1987]

A good read on BUG control

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/25008-Buggin-Out.html

[Chikenbok]

I liked the read a lot, a bit more than his list, although it still seems quite strong. I'm not sure I quite like the idea of running two maindeck Loams right now which seem mildly dead against a formidable bit of the field (and by dead I mean, not amazing win the game right now). I'm also uncertain as to running 0 ghastly demise main -- Abrupt decay is amazing, I'll give him that but I'm playing it as a 2 of in the deck while still maintaining 2 Ghastly demise to answer the feared turn 1 drops from the opponent.

Otherwise the list seems like.. well, every other BUG control list that's running around +/- a few cards here and there. I feel the ponders could be something more relevant (or at least cut 1 or 2 of them down) and that the deck needs at least 1 basic island and 1 basic swamp. Otherwise, I'm glad Nick's back on the BUG train.

EDIT for actual content:

This is the sideboard I plan on running in the near future:

4 x Dark Confidant
2 x Vendilion Clique
2 x Grafdigger's Cage
2 x Surgical Extraction
1 x Damnation
1 x Perish
1 x Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 x Darkblast
1 x Flusterstorm

[Kyle]

This is the sideboard I plan on running in the near future:

4 x Dark Confidant
2 x Vendilion Clique
2 x Grafdigger's Cage
2 x Surgical Extraction
1 x Damnation
1 x Perish
1 x Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 x Darkblast
1 x Flusterstorm

Chikenbok, what's your current build? I know you were testing out Standstill for a little while, but what have you settled on for reliable CA? I love Dark Confidant, but what do you side out for him?

Can you take moment to 'splain some of your other SB choices? For example, I'm not sure I understand Grafdigger's over Nihil Spellbomb or more Surgicals/Extirpates.

BUG Control's hardest matchups by far have been red decks - Burn and Goblins. I've honestly considered running Chill. It can be as much a pain in the ass for a Gobbo player as a Burn player. I'm also swayed, since I have 3 Goblin players and one Burn player in my local meta...

Here's my current SB:

1x Damnation
1x Night of Souls Betrayal
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Engineered Plague
2x Flusterstorm

[mike1987]

I liked the read a lot, a bit more than his list, although it still seems quite strong. I'm not sure I quite like the idea of running two maindeck Loams right now which seem mildly dead against a formidable bit of the field (and by dead I mean, not amazing win the game right now). I'm also uncertain as to running 0 ghastly demise main -- Abrupt decay is amazing, I'll give him that but I'm playing it as a 2 of in the deck while still maintaining 2 Ghastly demise to answer the feared turn 1 drops from the opponent.

Otherwise the list seems like.. well, every other BUG control list that's running around +/- a few cards here and there. I feel the ponders could be something more relevant (or at least cut 1 or 2 of them down) and that the deck needs at least 1 basic island and 1 basic swamp. Otherwise, I'm glad Nick's back on the BUG train.

EDIT for actual content:

This is the sideboard I plan on running in the near future:

4 x Dark Confidant
2 x Vendilion Clique
2 x Grafdigger's Cage
2 x Surgical Extraction
1 x Damnation
1 x Perish
1 x Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 x Darkblast
1 x Flusterstorm

As for the ponders, i have replaced it with sensei's divining top. It is just better for a grindy deck like us to have a constant pondering option. I am still not sure about dark confidant in the sideboard. Flipping a jace or force of will hurts us badly and I dont think siding us confidant will make us fast enough to race with control even with the card advantage.

[Chikenbok]

@Kyle - Regarding CA, I found the best way to generate it is, well, without standstills - they were simply lackluster about 70% of the time (and glorious 30%). The deck relies on trading life total for board sweeps, and 2-3 for 1's (unlike the general tempo plan of trading 1 for 1's. Burn is a problem, I'll admit that and if they have a good draw you just lose the game however, no one I know plays burn so I've ignored the deck completely. Albiet, playing tightly with a few Hydroblasts/Chills in the board plus proper hand disruption and saving counters (Liliana shines here) can win some really tough games.

Against Goblins your only chance of winning is with Night of Souls' Betrayal and Darkblast out of the board (or E-Plague if you just need time to stabilize) -- Saving and blowing deed on 3 will win you more games than anything else, the 'only' card you really have to worry about is ringleader.

RE: Cage vs. Spellbomb -- Our deck doesn't have a clock, let's be honest here -- we win the game at the pace of a paraplegic mountain-climbing (or hopefully our opponent scooping) and Cage *Has To* be answered before any graveyard deck wants to go off unlike spellbomb which has to be used (the +1 in CA is fairly irrelevant in something like a dredge matchup. Surgical's are saved for Cabal therapies and narcomebies before anything else. and Snapcasters deal with Ichorids, and lastly bridges (of course this depends on how their graveyard is showing up.

@Mike - Top is a fine card, I just never really found myself in a situation where you NEED TO FIND AN ANSWER ZOMG ASAP. Hold spells that matter, the deck can really, especially now with AD, deal with everything. Flipping a Jace or Force might hurt but... then you get to play a Jace... and you have a Force of will... That's pretty good last I heard.

Here's the list I'll be playing for the foreseeable future:



//Wam!
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Snapcaster Mage

//Bam!
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
1 Life from the Loam
1 Spell Snare

//Thank you Ma'am!
3 Innocent Blood
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Ghastly Demise
3 Inquisition of Kozilek

//...lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Swamp
1 Island

//Sideboard - 15
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Flusterstorm
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Darkblast
1 Perish
4 Dark Confidant
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Damnation



Sideboarding generally goes something like this:

Is your opponent playing creatures? Yes?
- 3 Snapcaster Mage
- x Force of Will (Mav -2, Can Thresh - 1, StoneBlade (NOT Miracles) -1)
+ NoSB,
+ Darkblast
+ Perish (if they're green)
+ Damnation
+ Confidants

Is your opponent playing combo?
- 3 Innocent Blood
- 2 Ghastly Demise
- 3 Pernicious Deed
+ 1 Flusterstorm
+ 4 Confidant
+ 2 Clique
+ 1/2 Surgical depending on their build

Is your opponent playing Miracles, like a jerk? -- I repeat, they cannot beat deed
- 3 Innocent Blood
- 2 Ghastly Demise
- 2 Force of Will
+ 4 Confidant
+ 2 Clique
+ 1 Flusterstorm

Graveyard Deck?
-2 Snapcaster Mage
-4 Deed/Decay/Removal/Etc Depending on the deck of course
+ 2 Graffdigger's Cage
+ 2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Clique (For a clock)

If there's anything I can be more specific about, please lemme know.

-Alex

[bfeingersh]

Got 17th at SCG providence with this list

2 Vendilion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Ancestral Vision
1 Life from the Loam

3 Jace the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize

3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Mana Leak
1 Counterspell

1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Innocent Blood

4 Brainstorm

1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
3 Tropical Island

SB:
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Perish
1 Damnation
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Krosan Grip
1 Force of Will
1 Darkblast
1 Engineered Plague
1 Duress

Played against an interesting selection of decks. The matchups were:
rd 1 ANT 2-1 (1-0)
rd 2 high tide 2-0 (2-0)
rd 3 valakut 2-1 (3-0) feature match, check archive
rd 4 BUG delver 0-2 (3-1) finished 3rd
rd 5 NO RUG 1-2 (3-2) finished 10th
rd 6 cephalid breakfast 2-0 (4-2)
rd 7 metalworker 2-1 (5-2)
rd 8 UWr miracles 2-1 (6-2)

Some thoughts on the deck:

1) Abrupt Decay is the stones
2) Needs more Jace or more Thoughtseize to win Jace battles
3) Goyfs in the sideboard to bring the deck down to a faster aggro-control deck are A++++
4) Visions are much better than Standstills (sorry Boaz, I still think you should play Visions!)

I think BUG is easily capable of being one of the decks to beat. Abrupt Decay is a great catch-all.

[Chikenbok]

1) Abrupt Decay is the stones


Congrats on the finish!

Were you happy with(only) 2 decay in the MD? I'm currently running 2 Decay, 2 Ghastly demise, 3 Innocent blood but I have a lot of creature decks still running rampant in my meta - seems you're tuned towards a bit more of an open field.

If you need another Jace, well - run another jace! Perhaps consider either -1 snapcaster mage or -1 mana leak for the fourth jace, or another thoughtseize.

[jparula]

What do you guys think about Golgari Charm?
It deals with stuff BUG usually has problems with, such as:
Lingering Souls, Sylvan Library, Choke, Elves, Goblins, Dark Confidant, Thalia, Mother of Runes, Counterbalance(sometimes), etc...
It might even hit mongoose or delver early on.
For a 2 mana instant i think it is a very fine addition to either sideboard or main.

[metamet]

Congrats on the finish!

Do you feel that 2 Abrupt Decays is ideal for the main?

[TonyRo]

I ran this list quite successfully over the weekend through some brawls on MODO:

Land (24)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Swamp

Spells & Creatures (31)
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Innocent Blood
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
2 Life From the Loam
2 Snapcaster Mage

Planeswalkers (5)
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard (15)
1 Darkblast
1 Perish
1 Damnation
1 Engineered Plague
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Dread of Night
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Thoughtseize
1 Raven's Crime
1 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb

I also watched and briefly discussed Feingersh's list over Twitter (thanks for the quick ship btw!), and I'm eager to try out some of his card choices. A few things:

1. Abrupt Decay was, again, the nut. I'm pretty sure there are a reasonable enough number of matchups for me to be running 4 in my 75 - not sure on the split. I liked it so much that I was bringing the Snapcaster Mage in the matchups where it was good.

2. I could see dropping to 1 Loam. There aren't all that many decks right now that are really soft to Wasteland - Goblins, UW Control, and even the Stoneblade deck run a lot of basics. Against RUG, I'd really rather have more business instead of Loam in nearly all cases until I've stabilized, in which case I'm likely already winning.

3. I think Boaz was on Spagnolo's Standstill list here (Buggin' Out (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/25008-Buggin-Out.html)), but Standstill seems horrendously positioned. Yes, T1 Land Diamond Standstill on the play is probably unbeatable, but otherwise it seems...not as good. I also think Deed is just better than E.E. most of the time, and I don't like having to cut them because of the non-bo with Mox.

I might try out -1 Loam, -1 Ponder, +2 Visions, just to see how it goes. Might also try -1 Counterspell, +1 Mana Leak for the same reason. Seems very reasonable that most of the time it's just a counterspell that people will run stuff into mistakenly.

[bfeingersh]

Congrats on the finish!

Do you feel that 2 Abrupt Decays is ideal for the main?

I want a 3rd, might be cutting the Ghastly Demise for it. It's much more versatile and perfect for an open metagame like most SCG events are (for something like an invitational I might reconsider). I faced multiple creatureless decks yesterday and I love having more easy answers to counterbalance.

[metamet]

As a longtime proponent of Team America/BUG Control, I am happy to see it becoming competitive again. I'll likely be sleeving this up very soon.

How integral has the Lily + Loam lock been? I used to run Intuition and Raven's Crime before Liliana was around, but does this deck not want any cute stuff going on? :)

[Chikenbok]

As a longtime proponent of Team America/BUG Control, I am happy to see it becoming competitive again. I'll likely be sleeving this up very soon.

How integral has the Lily + Loam lock been? I used to run Intuition and Raven's Crime before Liliana was around, but does this deck not want any cute stuff going on? :)

Lili and loam (even lili herself sometimes) will single-handedly win you games outright. Intuition has been notoriously a bit too slow and imo, a bit too cute however, Raven's crime is a fantastic SB card for matchups where lands are less relevant than card advantage.

I'm still on the 3 Lili 1 Loam package, other's have gone down to 2 lili, up to you - but I wouldn't go below 2.

-Alex

[csy]

2 loam feels heavy, why not run Sylvan library?

[Chikenbok]

2 loam feels heavy, why not run Sylvan library?

Pernicious deed.

Loam is CA (also, interactions with Jace, Wasteland, Liliana, Raven's crime, etc), also most control decks also can't afford to use their life total as a resource.

[robojim]

The Lily + Loam hard lock is generally win-more. She's incredible on her own and like Jace, if you're already ahead when you cast her you've basically won the game.

I placed 29th at Providence this weekend with BUG going 5-2-1, losing to burn and UW Stoneforge (loose keep game 2, mull to 5 on the play game 3), and drawing with RUG Delver. The draw was only because of poor play on my part, RUG is an excellent matchup.

List:

2 x Snapcaster Mage

3 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 x Liliana of the Veil

2 x Pernicious Deed
4 x Standstill

4 x Brainstorm
4 x Force of Will
3 x Spell Pierce
2 x Counterspell
4 x Abrupt Decay
3 x Innocent Blood
1 x Ghastly Demise
1 x Life from the Loam

4 x Underground Sea
2 x Tropical Island
1 x Bayou
3 x Polluted Delta
2 x Verdant Catacombs
2 x Misty Rainforest
1 x Swamp
1 x Island
1 x Forest
4 x Mishra's Factory
3 x Wasteland

SB:
2 x Tarmogoyf
2 x Vendilion Clique
3 x Thoughtseize
2 x Nihil Spellbomb
2 x Extirpate
1 x Perish
1 x Virtue's Ruin
1 x Damnation
1 x Engineered Explosives


As others have said, Decay was amazing in an open meta. Having the option to board into an aggro-control deck is a must unless you know there won't be any combo at a tournament. I boarded out Standstill on the draw in almost every match and will be testing Visions when I get a chance. Immediate changes I plan on making to the maindeck:

-1 Snapcaster Mage
-1 Ghastly Demise
-1 Counterspell
-1 Standstill
+1 Darkblast
+1 Jace
+2 Thoughtseize

BUG of some form is what I always want to be playing in Legacy so I'm very happy to see it performing well again. Decay feels a lot like Misstep in that it slows down the game with some level of certainty, which is a amazing when you want to get to 4+ mana every game.

Best,
Jim

[Valarne]

Usually I default to a BUG control list with a slant towards aggro-control, but this weekend I'm playing in a tournament where I expect a lot of Team America, RUG and grindy control decks. Because of the tempo in the room, I don't fear combo as much, but would like to make a list that beats tempodecks and the "mirror".

4 Ancestral Vision
4 Jace
2 Liliana
2 Loam
4 Innocent Blood
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Inq of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm

24 lands:
3 U. Sea
2 Trop
2 Bayou
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
8 fetch
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Wasteland

SB:
4 Dark Confidant
2 V. Clique
3 Surgical E.
3 Kitchen Finks
2 P. Deed
1 E. Explosives

Points:
Should I find room for something instead of the 24th land?
Why am I the "only" one running the full set Innocent Bloods? Blood/Decay seems like the best combination of spotremoval, no?
Other thoughts?

Bob goes in against control and combo. I expect some number of red decks, which is the meta-reason for the Finks.

Thanks!

[mike1987]

Posted this in salvation but garnered no replies so here is my current decklist:

4 Polluted delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacomb
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Island
1 Swamp

2 Snapcaster mage
1 Vendilion Clique

3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
3 Abrupt decay
4 Brainstorm

3 Innocent Blood
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Damnation
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Life from the loam

3 Sensei's Divining top

3 Pernicious deed

2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Feel free to critique my decklist

I think top is really good in a grindy deck like ours as it gives us many answers and consistency, I will just bounce top back to library after deed blows and re-cast it next turn

I feel like squeezing one more copy of clique in there as it has helped me a lot against mirror/control and even combo matchups but I can't figure out what to remove. There is this deck at my metagame lately that I find it real hard to win against. They play veteran explorers, cabal therapy, ramping into Karn, Primeval Titan or Thragtusk. Not sure if its rock or nic fit. Any good advice?

[Chikenbok]

Nic Fit can't beat a Jace, but if the pilot is good, you'll have a hard time resolving it in the first place. You have to be able to board into some kind of reasonable clock against 'em cause they want to take it the long game just as badly as you do -- although they only have a few bombs they can resolve/recur. The list looks fine although I'm not sure why people are still running Pulse MD and/or Damnation when we now have ghastly demise, deed, lili, innocent blood, and abrupt decay to deal with creatures. They're fine in the board, but MD? Really?

(On a second read, if you're playing in a field against Nic Fit - Pulse takes precedence over Damnation)

[Valarne]

@Mike1987: What's your sideboard?

[mike1987]

Nic Fit can't beat a Jace, but if the pilot is good, you'll have a hard time resolving it in the first place. You have to be able to board into some kind of reasonable clock against 'em cause they want to take it the long game just as badly as you do -- although they only have a few bombs they can resolve/recur. The list looks fine although I'm not sure why people are still running Pulse MD and/or Damnation when we now have ghastly demise, deed, lili, innocent blood, and abrupt decay to deal with creatures. They're fine in the board, but MD? Really?

(On a second read, if you're playing in a field against Nic Fit - Pulse takes precedence over Damnation)

I am playing pulse cause i realise BUG control has problems dealing with planeswalker. Nic fit/rock has lots of irritating planeswalker to deal with. Be it liliana or karn. Plus U/W miracles, stoneblade all play Jace which is outside decay range, thats when maelstrom pulse comes in handy. At worst, it is a sorcery speed creature removal. It even hoses entreat the angels. Damnation is due to my metagame of merfolk, rock, maverick, junk, rug delver(lots of creature based decks).

@Valarne my sideboard consists of

1 Life from the loam
2 Krosan Grip
1 Raven's crime
2 Thoughtseize
2 Perish
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Hydroblast
1 Blue elemental blast
1 Vendillion clique
1 Spell pierce
1 Flusterstorm

[Kyle]

After a brief affair with other archetypes (egad!) I'm back on the BUG "Creatureless" Control track - and I think I've officially found my way back home.

Looking over the more recent deck posts, it's starting to look like this deck has an official "Core" now! -

//Planeswalkers (6)
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Creatures (2-3)
2-3 Snapcaster Mage

//Instants (17-19)
3-4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
1-2 Life from the Loam
2-3 Abrupt Decay
2 Ghastly Demise

//Sorceries (6)
3 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek / Thoughtseize mix

//Enchantments (3)
3 Pernicious Deed

//Lands (21-23)
8 Fetches
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Mishra's Factory
2-3 Wasteland
6-7 Duals
2-3 Basics

34-37 in the Core
21-23 Lands

Leaves mayyyybe 5 cards max for wiggle room. Here, I think, are the best wiggle/utility cards:

Damnation
I loves me a maindeck Damnation - great against any swarm deck and can completely shut down a Gobbo deck if timed right.

Maelstrom Pulse
Great if Stoneblade or Miracles are heavy in your meta. I'm running one and love it.

Standstill
I love Standstill, and if you want to generate a nice temporary lockdown while you sculpt a hand of counters while your opponent incorrectly does nothing, Standstill is your card. It's a fun card, but don't cast one without having a Mishra's Factory or Creeping Tar Pit coming up.

Ponder
Need digging, filtering, shuffling for a durdly deck and another blue source to pitch to FoW? Yup. I personally like it for the shuffle effect, as midgame topdecks into lands lands lands can suck balls.

Diabolic Edict
Sometimes you really need an instant-speed kill-spell for non-targetables (I'm looking at you Emrakul). Not that you'll always resolve it, but as a 1-of it could be nice.

Sensei's Divining Top
More digging. Haven't tried it yet, but it seems 2-of could really help through some tough times. This deck tends to be pretty good on running mana-heavy, which is totally necessary for Top.

On a completely different note regarding sideboard choices, I found that Night of Souls' Betrayal is completely pointless and I'd rather be running Engineered Plague, mostly because you can have two of them in play and it costs 1 mana less. The only time I can think of Night of Souls' Betrayal being better is against... Aggro Zombies? What am I missing? Considering how plagued (no pun intended) the meta is with Goblins, Engineered Plague seems strictly better and Night of Souls' Betrayal is a clunky alternative.

[Chikenbok]

First off, welcome back home.


The deck NEEEEEEEEDS 23 lands at a minimun, although I thoroughly enjoyed the rest of the breakdown. I've been playing with 3 snapcasters for a while now and have been considering going back down to 2 to add either a single ponder or a single something (not sure what yet). I've been testing with 2 Abrupt decays but perhaps a third is in order as well, it is pretty dope.

[death]

With 22 lands 9-fetch I am still getting mana flooded often :confused:

[Chikenbok]

With 22 lands 9-fetch I am still getting mana flooded often :confused:

... Care to exchange luck for a few tournaments? The deck needs its land drops til at least turn 5 and doesn't want to waste a cantrip to find one. I've seen successful lists running 24 but damn man, if you can hit it with 22 all the power to ya.

[Valarne]

I ran this list http://mtgpulse.com/event/11100#154251 to a decent finish this weekend.

It felt pretty sweet, but I would probably exchange the Confidants in the board for something a bit more proactive against combo (and control mirrors); maybe 2 Duress, 1 Snapcaster and another Clique. Besides that, I am actually thinking that the Deeds are not necessary at all, and that 3 Engineered Plague would do a better job equalizing the bad matchups (Goblins, Elves) and work as good or better against Maverick and Death & Taxes. Between immense carddrawing of Ancestral Visions and Jace, the 1 for 1 removal might be enough. What do you think?

Smaller tweaks: I can see the case for cutting 1 Innocent Blood for a Ghastly Demise, and bringing back the third Wasteland, to get a few more outs to man-lands.

Kitchen Finks are btw sweet - Innocent Blood, Liliana and Jace all make them provide extra life, while delivering beatdowns.

[metamet]

Anyone tested Deathrite Shaman in the board? I witnessed a BUG player using them in the side this weekend as his GY hate, RUG Delver hate and life gain, and he said they had been amazing.

[Valarne]

Anyone tested Deathrite Shaman in the board? I witnessed a BUG player using them in the side this weekend as his GY hate, RUG Delver hate and life gain, and he said they had been amazing.

I haven't tried it myself, but one of the local BUG pioneers is trying them out, and seems to be happy. I have some doubts: As graveyard hate it is slow, and against Dredge useless almost.
As lifegain it is decent, but will probably just suck a Lightning Bolt, which is ok but underwhelming. As RUG Delver hate I think it is awkward, since it is slow, dies to Bolts which don't have good targets otherwise, and it dies to Innocent Blood.
I played Team America against the above mentioned BUG player, and his Shamans from the board were good - but mostly because they ramped him manawise. I think it is a great card, but it needs just the right niche of a deck to really shine.

[Nastaboi]

I play with Standstills and just added 25th land because the card I found myself wanting to draw most was just another land. I tried Bobs in the board but found them not needed, so I just run 3 Clique and have more room for other answer cards.

[TonyRo]

I highly recommend anyone jamming BUG Control to try Ancestral Visions. I tried it after seeing Ben Feingersh play it at a recent SCG Event, and have been playing 2 in my list every since. Has been insane nearly every time I've drawn it, and makes a noticeable difference in the RUG matchup so far.

[Chikenbok]

I highly recommend anyone jamming BUG Control to try Ancestral Visions. I tried it after seeing Ben Feingersh play it at a recent SCG Event, and have been playing 2 in my list every since. Has been insane nearly every time I've drawn it, and makes a noticeable difference in the RUG matchup so far.

What does your list look like? So far I've been happy with 4 jace/loam/lili as my CA engine and I'd be curious as to what you cut for the AVs.

[TonyRo]

Here you go sir:

Lands (24)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland

Spells (29)
4 Brainstorm
2 Ancestral Vision
1 Life From the Loam
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
3 Innocent Blood
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize

Creatures (2)
2 Snapcaster Mage

Planeswalkers (5)
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard (15)
2 Thoughtseize
1 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Raven's Crime
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Damnation
1 Darkblast
1 Perish
1 Dread of Night
1 Engineered Plague

Any thoughts welcome, especially in the SB, as I haven't done much there.

[Nastaboi]

I was a long time supporter for Vision until I switched to Standstill as Vial decks disappeared and combo decks become more played. Right now I like Standstill more, but my opinion may change along with metagame.

[Einherjer]

I was a long time supporter for Vision until I switched to Standstill as Vial decks disappeared and combo decks become more played. Right now I like Standstill more, but my opinion may change along with metagame.


Yep mostly because Vial decks are not disappearing at the moment. Goblins and Merfolk are at an one-years-high or something.


I really do like the list posted above. I'd love to fit another Life from the Loam somewhere in there. Im rather sold on that Visions aswell, they've been awesome in the limited testing I've done with it.

Did anybody try a single Vraska? I think Vraska could replace Jace #4 and would allow us to have an more diversified Planeswalker-army.

Is the 2-2 Discardspit really worth it? I've never been a fan of playing a Discardsplit in Esperblade. I can see the reason with the missing Lifegain here, but I'd still be playing 4 Thoughtseize, to be honest.

Greetings

[TonyRo]

Thanks! Yeah, I like Loam, but it just hasn't been incredible for me. Okay and good, but not amazing. Maybe -1 Deed +1 Loam is possible if you like that effect. You could even move a Force of Will or Inquisition to the SB if you wanted the 2nd Loam as well.

The 2/2 Split is mostly arbitrary at this point - it's very possible that 4 Thoughtseize is correct, with 2 Duress in the board instead if you want the extra discard spells.

Lately, I've been thinking about the manlands. Perhaps it's because my MD is Clique-less and I almost never go on the beatdown plan, but I'm thinking about cutting down to 2, or maybe testing with none. I just find that I'm never happy when I draw a Factory.

[Chikenbok]

There are far too many games where I wind up stabilizing at something along the lines of 4-6 life for me to run a full set of thoughtseize, I've been sitting pretty on a 3/1 split of IoK/Thoughtseize and enjoying it quite a bit. The cards explain themselves so I wont. Testing out Visions today instead of studying for my qualifying exams, with -1 Snapcaster - 1 Ven Clique MD + 2 Visions. Will reply after I spend a few hours playing some games.

[metronome2charisma]

Yep mostly because Vial decks are not disappearing at the moment. Goblins and Merfolk are at an one-years-high or something.


I really do like the list posted above. I'd love to fit another Life from the Loam somewhere in there. Im rather sold on that Visions aswell, they've been awesome in the limited testing I've done with it.

Did anybody try a single Vraska? I think Vraska could replace Jace #4 and would allow us to have an more diversified Planeswalker-army.



Is the 2-2 Discardspit really worth it? I've never been a fan of playing a Discardsplit in Esperblade. I can see the reason with the missing Lifegain here, but I'd still be playing 4 Thoughtseize, to be honest.



Greetings
two loams is too many most of the time .thats why there is one in the main and one in the board in alot of builds

Jace is being played at higher numbers now so having more jaces to win the "jace war" seems important . also vraska is 5cc as appossed to jaces 4...and really vraska is NOT better than jace.so why would you want a diversified planwalker suite when you could just have the good ones? also it lessens your fow pitchables cards which can be relavent

This deck stabalizes at very low life totals almost all the time. The reason for the split is because thoughtsieze IS more powerfull but inquisition is almost as good and not having to pay life IS relavent

i do like 2 ee in the mainboard and 1 deed with deathrite shaman but thats a little more "experimental" but it hasn't been bad

[death]

Is the 2-2 Discardspit really worth it? I've never been a fan of playing a Discardsplit in Esperblade. I can see the reason with the missing Lifegain here, but I'd still be playing 4 Thoughtseize, to be honest.

IoK > Thoughtseize against decks packing burn spells (mono-red, UR/x) so in a wide open field where there is likelihood to be paired with a random burn deck, the 2/2 split seems a rational choice. Burn is a bad matchup to begin with but it's not a lost cause. I see where you're coming from, 4 Thoughtseize may not be an issue in a deck that has means of gaining life back (i.e. BSkull, Tendrils of Agony, Griselbrand, Vampire Nighthawk etc). With this deck however, you are stuck with the remaining life points, and at 1-2 life you can't cast/snapcast Thoughtseize or even fetch, in these situations I still managed to pull of wins with Jace T-M-S being the MVP, more often than not.

[catmint]

My current thoughts on this archetype:

When Decay and Vraska were spoiled I started thinking and testing again. My thoughts back then was that a "creatureless" pure Jace-control was the best for BUG. However that changed and I am thinking more into a midrange direction, since deathrite shaman waaay better than I anticipated and Vraska is much morse than I thought.

I started working on adapting this deck from back then with the new toys and came up with the following conclusions. BUG Delver is still suboptimal & a worse version of RUG delver, BUG "creatureless" is still very tough to play in a tournament environment with much much slower kills as mirales - Also Terminus > Deed - BUT BUG control (as described in this Post) has advantages over Stoneblade as the "midrangy-control" deck.

A look back
When delver & snapcaster came out BUG control was played as a discard based control deck with snapcaster, goyf & Hymn and a transformational deed control style from the SB (see the primer of the thread). This fell out of favour because:
- RUG Delver was so strong and attracted most of the blue mages (including myself)
- BUG was weak to burn strategies which had their hype with U/R Burn and Burn winning a couple of opens,...
- Stoneblade was the better control deck against a wide meta due to batterskull and swords to plowshares.

The weaknesses of the old archetype:
- Hymn forcing you into a non-basic manabase inheriting weaknesses against Wasteland (especially developing your manabase early), and hate like Price of Progress moon effects,...

- suboptimal black removal: too conditional, too expensive or costing you life.

- Weak against GY based strategies.

- No Life Gain (hard to get back against RUG, Burn,... compared to SFM-Batterskull)

- Hard to gain tempo advantage - not allowing you to make small mistakes.

So you see where I go with this. Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay adress all of these points, making the deck much stronger overall.

Before I talk about my current list (in dev) and specific card choices, the main incentive to play the deck for me are the strengths against UW based strategies, since abrupt decay handles Rest in Peace, Counterbalance,... while deed handels all their non-jace winconditions, basically forcing them to win with Jace against us. While the deck is probalby still stlightly positive against Maverick and should put up a fairly even fight against RUG. Combo is a pretty positive matchup and the deck is now much better against a wide meta than the old BUG control deck (primer) or the creatureless version.

So brewing about the deck I somehow looked at stoneblade since those decks have a lot on common in the sense of beeing blue based, midrange control strategies. Both Stoneblade and BUG have strenght & weaknesses comparing the "star" removal and the "star" 2 drop creature.
Stoneforge vs. Goyf: Vulnerable but Jitte & Baterskull vs Best wall & fast attacker "immune" to red
Swords vs. Abrupt Decay: Best creature removal an cheap vs. expensive, but uncounterable and flexible

What makes the difference imo is deathrite shaman, which is so flexible. Never underestimate the tempo advantage you can get with a mana-elf, but his reach, life-gain and the occasional hate have been fantastic. That he can be played off a swamp or an underground sea is also a big plus in terms of fixing green mana. Shaman and the utility of deed, maelstrom pulse, sylvan library or Life from the Loam made me go for Green over White.

my current decklist:

//Manabase: 23 lands, 3 Wasteland, 4 Basics
Altough having heavier mana needs than Esper, I feel Wasteland is still the best option.
Deathrite shaman produces mana and need lands in the yard... Still thinking about going more into a Esper kind of manabase. Life from the Loam is much weak when playing Shaman.

2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou


//Disruption
This has been proven as a very good combination

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek


//Removal
1 Mana removal is necesary thanks to mother & Lackey...

2 Ghastly Demise
4 Abrupt Decay


//Utility
Ponder is very good in the early game and the best manafixer.

2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


//Creatures (Utility & Primary Wincon)
Goyf deserves it's spot because of strengths vs. Canadian and aggro over ooze.
Vendilion vs 4th Snapcaster: Debateable - respecting miracles.
Shaman currently as a 3 of. He is often not the correct turn 1 play.

3 Tarmogoyf
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Snapcaster mage
1 Vendilion Clique


//Sideboard

4 Ancestral Visions
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Ghastly Demise
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Surgical Extraction


The SB Visions are great against all control matchups of course but I also prefer it as card advantage vs. aggro decks that can handle Jace or where jace is not really good like like Goblins, Merfolk, RUG.

So again: when playing this deck you can ask the question: "why this over Esperblade". As stated above my reasoning is that the UW/Miracle/stoneblade matchup is much better with BUG than with Esper, while both decks have decent game against the rest of the field.

[sdematt]

A friend of mine and I have been constructing this. this is my build, his is a bit different.

4 Underground Sea
3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Island
2 Swamp
25

3 Force of Will
3 Mana Leak/Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
10

4 Baleful Strix
4

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
5

3 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Damnation
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Entomb
2 Life from the Loam
1 Darblast
15

+2 Open. I was thinking 1 Sylvan Library and 1 Pulse or something. So far it's been pretty fun to play.

-Matt

[metronome2charisma]

My current thoughts on this archetype:

When Decay and Vraska were spoiled I started thinking and testing again. My thoughts back then was that a "creatureless" pure Jace-control was the best for BUG. However that changed and I am thinking more into a midrange direction, since deathrite shaman waaay better than I anticipated and Vraska is much morse than I thought.

I started working on adapting this deck from back then with the new toys and came up with the following conclusions. BUG Delver is still suboptimal & a worse version of RUG delver, BUG "creatureless" is still very tough to play in a tournament environment with much much slower kills as mirales - Also Terminus > Deed - BUT BUG control (as described in this Post) has advantages over Stoneblade as the "midrangy-control" deck.

A look back
When delver & snapcaster came out BUG control was played as a discard based control deck with snapcaster, goyf & Hymn and a transformational deed control style from the SB (see the primer of the thread). This fell out of favour because:
- RUG Delver was so strong and attracted most of the blue mages (including myself)
- BUG was weak to burn strategies which had their hype with U/R Burn and Burn winning a couple of opens,...
- Stoneblade was the better control deck against a wide meta due to batterskull and swords to plowshares.

The weaknesses of the old archetype:
- Hymn forcing you into a non-basic manabase inheriting weaknesses against Wasteland (especially developing your manabase early), and hate like Price of Progress moon effects,...

- suboptimal black removal: too conditional, too expensive or costing you life.

- Weak against GY based strategies.

- No Life Gain (hard to get back against RUG, Burn,... compared to SFM-Batterskull)

- Hard to gain tempo advantage - not allowing you to make small mistakes.

So you see where I go with this. Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay adress all of these points, making the deck much stronger overall.

Before I talk about my current list (in dev) and specific card choices, the main incentive to play the deck for me are the strengths against UW based strategies, since abrupt decay handles Rest in Peace, Counterbalance,... while deed handels all their non-jace winconditions, basically forcing them to win with Jace against us. While the deck is probalby still stlightly positive against Maverick and should put up a fairly even fight against RUG. Combo is a pretty positive matchup and the deck is now much better against a wide meta than the old BUG control deck (primer) or the creatureless version.

So brewing about the deck I somehow looked at stoneblade since those decks have a lot on common in the sense of beeing blue based, midrange control strategies. Both Stoneblade and BUG have strenght & weaknesses comparing the "star" removal and the "star" 2 drop creature.
Stoneforge vs. Goyf: Vulnerable but Jitte & Baterskull vs Best wall & fast attacker "immune" to red
Swords vs. Abrupt Decay: Best creature removal an cheap vs. expensive, but uncounterable and flexible

What makes the difference imo is deathrite shaman, which is so flexible. Never underestimate the tempo advantage you can get with a mana-elf, but his reach, life-gain and the occasional hate have been fantastic. That he can be played off a swamp or an underground sea is also a big plus in terms of fixing green mana. Shaman and the utility of deed, maelstrom pulse, sylvan library or Life from the Loam made me go for Green over White.

my current decklist:

//Manabase: 23 lands, 3 Wasteland, 4 Basics
Altough having heavier mana needs than Esper, I feel Wasteland is still the best option.
Deathrite shaman produces mana and need lands in the yard... Still thinking about going more into a Esper kind of manabase. Life from the Loam is much weak when playing Shaman.

2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou


//Disruption
This has been proven as a very good combination

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek


//Removal
1 Mana removal is necesary thanks to mother & Lackey...

2 Ghastly Demise
4 Abrupt Decay


//Utility
Ponder is very good in the early game and the best manafixer.

2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


//Creatures (Utility & Primary Wincon)
Goyf deserves it's spot because of strengths vs. Canadian and aggro over ooze.
Vendilion vs 4th Snapcaster: Debateable - respecting miracles.
Shaman currently as a 3 of. He is often not the correct turn 1 play.

3 Tarmogoyf
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Snapcaster mage
1 Vendilion Clique


//Sideboard

4 Ancestral Visions
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Ghastly Demise
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Surgical Extraction


The SB Visions are great against all control matchups of course but I also prefer it as card advantage vs. aggro decks that can handle Jace or where jace is not really good like like Goblins, Merfolk, RUG.

So again: when playing this deck you can ask the question: "why this over Esperblade". As stated above my reasoning is that the UW/Miracle/stoneblade matchup is much better with BUG than with Esper, while both decks have decent game against the rest of the field.

so why would you play this version over something like -1 island, -1 trop.-1 snapcaster, -1 jace
+4 delver?(cuz thats the direction this is going) it looks like a non tempo -tempo deck ..without the control elements is jace supposed to win games or is he not the win con anymore?

[metronome2charisma]

A friend of mine and I have been constructing this. this is my build, his is a bit different.

4 Underground Sea
3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Island
2 Swamp
25

3 Force of Will
3 Mana Leak/Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
10

4 Baleful Strix
4

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
5

3 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Damnation
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Entomb
2 Life from the Loam
1 Darblast
15

+2 Open. I was thinking 1 Sylvan Library and 1 Pulse or something. So far it's been pretty fun to play.

-Matt

what is strix for?
why damnation and e.e. over deed??(i like e.e. just not wwithout deed)
why two lftl when most decks run more basics?(you run 4)
no snapcaster w/ 25 lands?

[catmint]

so why would you play this version over something like -1 island, -1 trop.-1 snapcaster, -1 jace
+4 delver?(cuz thats the direction this is going) it looks like a non tempo -tempo deck ..without the control elements is jace supposed to win games or is he not the win con anymore?

If I do what you suggest the deck would like a non temop tempo deck. Now the deck is a midrange-controlish deck. If you want to build a BUG tempo version, you look at Canadian and build something like this (in my oponion an inferior delver deck; I said this months ago and abrupt decay did not change it; Canadian is the best delver deck). If you mean with "this is the direction this is going" that some SCG people played some BUG delver versions - true. But you should always ask yourself if this is the best thing to do. SCG also brought you stuff like Canadian without Nimble Mongoose but Snapcaster Mage or Canadian without Stifle... don't get me wrong I netdeck a lot and see what others are doing, but the biggest purpose of a forum like this is to think for yourself. :tongue:

what do you mean "without the control elements"?
without deed maindeck? A "creatureless" deed deck does not have the luxury of running a ton of good permanents like deathrite shaman, sylvan library, tarmogoyf,.. hence I have it in the sideboard. You still have enough elements to control the game and to win with jace. Most of the time that means winning in the sense of brainstorming into oblivion rather than fatesealing - which is a much safer and faster way imo. But much like Esperblade you dont rely on it - you can also just get into the red-zone with goyf + friends.

[Kyle]

Regarding Deathrite Shaman:

I am (extremely) slowly learning the awesome value of Deathrite Shaman, but I think it works best in an Aggro-Control Midrange shell. Since Deathrite isn't considered a "threat," at least in my mind, it doesn't belong in the super-grindy disruption-control version whose only creatures are 2-3 Snapcasters.

The "local favorite" control-ly version needs as many counter-threats and counterspells as possible to give it good anti-control anti-aggro balance and Deathrite takes up 4 very-needed spots. Also, the deck doesn't need any real acceleration since it's designed to grind out, stabilize, and take over with Jace, Lili, or manlands/Snapcaster/Clique.

Of course, if you don't have the patience to play this grindy version that has an answer to anything, play the Aggro-Control version, which is definitely effective and fun, just a completely, utterly different game.

Not that anyone is really touting the holy-shit mofo bonkers Deathrite Shaman anywhere but The Rock thread, I just wanted to very clearly emphasize how much the two versions are diverging.

And yes, Deathrite eats a Bolt like a champ.

On another note: do people find 22, 23, 24, or 25 lands is the magic number? I'm finding when running 22 I'm always scrambling to find another land, but I can't figure out what to cut to fit more in, as I also think 3 Snapcasters is the magic number...

Here's my current list, which I am so very in love with.

//Planeswalkers
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage

//Instants
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Ghastly Demise

//Sorceries
1 Life from the Loam
3 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Damnation
1 Maelstrom Pulse

//Enchantments
3 Pernicious Deed

//Lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Forest

SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Damnation
SB: 1 Force of Will

[sumbahdy]

What is the general consensus in building the control shell? There are 2 types that the deck's direction can go which are the creatureless build + more walkers and the old America shell of 8 creatures with walkers. Which one has more game against RUG? I would prefer the 8 creatures build with walkers as the number of threats are more diverse while not shying away frm the what the deck wants to do.

[Chikenbok]

What is the general consensus in building the control shell? There are 2 types that the deck's direction can go which are the creatureless build + more walkers and the old America shell of 8 creatures with walkers. Which one has more game against RUG? I would prefer the 8 creatures build with walkers as the number of threats are more diverse while not shying away frm the what the deck wants to do.

http://mtgpulse.com/event/11239#156151

http://mtgpulse.com/event/11238#156144

There are the two poles. They both have game against RUG although RUG isn't really too big a problem anymore with AD shutting off their early, 'play a creature protect protect protect' plan. If you like creatures, play em. I don't like creatures, so I don't. You'll have an edge against an aggro field pre-board playing with your own Goyfs but it also turns their removal on -- your call.

The 'general consensus' has been the same as its always been, just build the rest of the deck to do whatever you wanna do.

[sumbahdy]

http://mtgpulse.com/event/11239#156151

http://mtgpulse.com/event/11238#156144

There are the two poles. They both have game against RUG although RUG isn't really too big a problem anymore with AD shutting off their early, 'play a creature protect protect protect' plan. If you like creatures, play em. I don't like creatures, so I don't. You'll have an edge against an aggro field pre-board playing with your own Goyfs but it also turns their removal on -- your call.

The 'general consensus' has been the same as its always been, just build the rest of the deck to do whatever you wanna do.

Thanks for the reply. I followed the thread when the build was running Hymns alongside Snapcaster Mage. I tried both actually the creatureless one is bordering Bug Still anyhow and still find it too slow. I will still try to play both since I only need to swap a few cards in order to make the other.

[catmint]

In my opinion: If you master the deck you can be successful in both approaches!

The only problem I see with the creatureless version in a real tournament environment is that not being able to have fast wins is a big disadvantage. Even Miracle control complains about this problem although they have entreat and with that a superfast way to formally win the game. The other disadvantage is that the game plan of “creatureless” is more linear whereas the creature version is more flexible in executing it’s game plan. For my personal taste I like to be able to consciously switch gears in any given game – beeing able to be proactive is a big asset in many matchups.

Concerning the overall strength I find the creature version to have a better combo/burn/sligh/dredge matchup or in general a better matchup vs. a wide field, whereas the creatureless version to be better against Maverick & RUG.

Timing & skill issues (no free/easy wins for creatureless) will make “creatureless” never really popular but lovers gonna play and win with it. Also the hardcore control lovers have a lot of incentives going into UW for a 1 mana wrath.

The creature version on the other hand has advantage has merits in gaining maximum value out of deathrite shaman. To me mana acceleration in a deck running jace (and/or wasteland) is super strong, and with the other abilities and a 1/2 body this is a justifyable birds of paradise.

[toasterprodigy]

Can you explain the general sideboard?
I'm going get into this deck and play it hopefully at my next Legacy event.
Would like to know what match ups I bring in X and take out Y if that isn't too much to ask.

Also,
How is BUG control's match up against U/W standstill (Gerry T's list), Esper Stoneblade, Goblins and Enchantress?

Thanks alot for reading and I hope you answer!

[Chikenbok]

Can you explain the general sideboard?
I'm going get into this deck and play it hopefully at my next Legacy event.
Would like to know what match ups I bring in X and take out Y if that isn't too much to ask.

Also,
How is BUG control's match up against U/W standstill (Gerry T's list), Esper Stoneblade, Goblins and Enchantress?

Thanks alot for reading and I hope you answer!

Please read the last 4-5 pages of the thread, it answers all of your questions.

[metronome2charisma]

Regarding Deathrite Shaman:

I am (extremely) slowly learning the awesome value of Deathrite Shaman, but I think it works best in an Aggro-Control Midrange shell. Since Deathrite isn't considered a "threat," at least in my mind, it doesn't belong in the super-grindy disruption-control version whose only creatures are 2-3 Snapcasters.

The "local favorite" control-ly version needs as many counter-threats and counterspells as possible to give it good anti-control anti-aggro balance and Deathrite takes up 4 very-needed spots. Also, the deck doesn't need any real acceleration since it's designed to grind out, stabilize, and take over with Jace, Lili, or manlands/Snapcaster/Clique.

Of course, if you don't have the patience to play this grindy version that has an answer to anything, play the Aggro-Control version, which is definitely effective and fun, just a completely, utterly different game.

Not that anyone is really touting the holy-shit mofo bonkers Deathrite Shaman anywhere but The Rock thread, I just wanted to very clearly emphasize how much the two versions are diverging.

And yes, Deathrite eats a Bolt like a champ.

On another note: do people find 22, 23, 24, or 25 lands is the magic number? I'm finding when running 22 I'm always scrambling to find another land, but I can't figure out what to cut to fit more in, as I also think 3 Snapcasters is the magic number...

Here's my current list, which I am so very in love with.

//Planeswalkers
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage

//Instants
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Ghastly Demise

//Sorceries
1 Life from the Loam
3 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Damnation
1 Maelstrom Pulse

//Enchantments
3 Pernicious Deed

//Lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Forest

SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Damnation
SB: 1 Force of Will

i like this build alot as its pretty much what i played .As for changes, i would say play 24 land and drop a demise and a snapcaster..you wont be sorry add a boyou and an island

[Chikenbok]

@Kyle

List is groovy, I dig it a lot (cept I'll never leave home without a full set of forces MD)

More importantly, perhaps a few tips on yer SB - take em or leave em:

Grafdigger's cage should either be relic or crypt, Snappies + cage = no good
Dread of Night should definitely be reconsidered as the games you'd be bringing it in are games you'd still be running Deed and well DoN + Deed = no good
Also, the 2nd Damnation in the board seems like it fit a more proactive role of being something else.

This would give you up 3 slots to work with (considering you do in fact take any of my advice) allowing you to add either a Raven's crime, fourth Jace, Engineered Explosives, or - my personal favorite, Dark Confidant.

Just some brainstorming.

[kiblast]

Guys, just wanted to mention that Golgari Charm is an amazing sideboard addition, at least theorically. Is a possible answer to Omniscience if you don't manage to counter Show and Tell or Therapy/Rector. I mean, obviously countering the enabler is better in this case, but if you lose the counter war now you have a small chance to survive. After a counterwar, most of the times playing Charm in response to the first spell played off Omniscience stops the combo, unless the opponent has a really really good hand.
Then, it kills Goblins, Thalias, Moms, Empty the Warrens Goblins, stops Elf Combo during their critical turn (the third) , just by being played in response to Archdruid or to Glimpse - which is something both Deed and E-Plague can't do.
I'll give it a try. We have a shitload of dead cards Vs Omnitell anyway so adding more hate, in the form of a card which can be easily Sb'ed in Vs a LOT of different matchups seems cool.

[jeanbathez]

So on Saturday i took this list to a small tournament for testing :

2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

2 Ghastly Demise
4 Abrupt Decay

2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


4 Tarmogoyf
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Snapcaster mage
2 Vendilion Clique


//Sideboard

1 Life from the Loam
2 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
1 Thrun the last Troll
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Counterspell

So a very short report :

Round 1 Belcher 1:2
Game 1 : 2 Spell Pierce and Tarmo gets me there
Game 2 : Mulligan to 5, but no answer to his swarm in time
Game 3 : When he goes off, i had in Hand : Force, blue pitch card and Flusterstorm, at the end of his chain he casts Burning Wish with 1 Card in his Hand remaining, and here beginns my mistake ? ( So opininons on these are very welcome !) At the very first Moment i wanted to cast Force, and then thought, what if he has Belcher, which can't Flusterstorm can't handle, so i swithched and cast Flusterstorm, and his last card was of course Empty the Warens and i can't handle the tokens in time :-(
Perhaps i should have countered when he ramps his mana...?

Round 2 AnT : 1:1
Game 1 : Game 1 i get there, with the help of Snappy
Game 2 : 3 Discard Spell from him took all my counters was too much..
Game 3 : Ended in a draw, i had 4 Lands in hand and 5 in Play (man i was so flood) and nothing else, so it was all about bluffing and hoping he didin't draw discard...

Round 3 : Reanimator 2:1
Game 1 : Discard, daze on the play was too much
Game 2 : Clique in response to his show and tell....;-)
Game 3 : 2 Surgical + Snappy was enough
> never saw a deathride

Round 4 Goblins : 1:1
> Game 1 Tarmos and Decay, got me there, man is Decay better than swords hitting vials :-)
> Game 2 : Screw and his wastelands and i never got backin the game
> Game 3 : Endless game, Jace is so good when he stays a few turns, but wasn't able to close the game in time..


Final thoughts :
> thinking about upping deathrides to 4, and play a game of turn 1 deathride, turn 2 clique, or turn 3 jace sounds good, if i can't start with discard, depends on match up...
> upping wastelands to 4

[karaxu]

Game 3 : When he goes off, i had in Hand : Force, blue pitch card and Flusterstorm, at the end of his chain he casts Burning Wish with 1 Card in his Hand remaining, and here beginns my mistake ? ( So opininons on these are very welcome !) At the very first Moment i wanted to cast Force, and then thought, what if he has Belcher, which can't Flusterstorm can't handle, so i swithched and cast Flusterstorm, and his last card was of course Empty the Warens and i can't handle the tokens in time :-(
Perhaps i should have countered when he ramps his mana...?

Generally I try to counter the spell that would generate the 4th mana. OR the 3rd mana depending if you suspect a spirit guide. depends on your gut feel but more or less try to stop the mana spell and not their win con because you can't risk holding a Flusterstorm against Belcher or a FOW against empty.

[Kyle]

@metronome2charisma: Thanks for the advice, so far dropping the Snapcaster has been great. The deck runs so much more smoothly with an extra land, and considering how mana-hungry this deck can get, especially with the Snapcasters, the +1 Land -1 Snapcaster is a great balance. I chose to only go with one extra land - a basic Forest - only because I make it habit of always running 3 basic lands in every tri-color deck I play, mostly because of the rampant Nic Fit in my meta.

@Chikenbok: Also, thanks for your advice. In my brainless state I went on your original "paraplegic mountain climbing" advice and started using Grafdiggers, and found that I was very rarely boarding it in, not to mention that anti-synergy of Snapcasters with 'em (hence the "brainless" part). Your advice to use Relic I think is spot-on: it hates on so much of the current meta - it keeps RUG and Maverick down, hurts Dredge gradually or all at once, and can keep Reanimator under control in some instances. I never thought of the nonbo of Pernicious Deed and Dread of Night.

So, here are my deck edits, which seem to be working nicely (so far). I removed the maindeck Damnation because it's a really awful dead draw if up against combo, Miracles, or really anything non-aggro. I figure the deck has enough murderdeathkill in the form of Innocent Blood, Ghastly Demise, Abrupt Decay, and Maelstrom Pulse and post-board I bring in all the aggro hate if necessary.

More Thoughtseizes for combo hate, plus the great sweeper of Night of Soul's Betrayal.

-1 Snapcaster Mage
-1 Ghastly Demise
-1 Damnation
-1 Abrupt Decay
+1 Force of Will
+1 Forest
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Verdant Catacombs
SB: -2 Dread of Night
SB: -1 Force of Will
SB: -2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: +1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
SB: +2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: +2 Thoughtseize

[toasterprodigy]

Has Gifts Ungiven been played with? Is it too slow for it's cmc? Require to be more built around?
It's not like this deck has trouble getting to 4 - 5 mana.

[weaselface]

I'm brewing a BUG deck to play in a ~100 player tournament a few weeks from now.

This is what I have in mind:

2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique

4x Fow
4x Brainstorm
2x Counterspell
2x Spell Pierce
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Darkblast
2x Ghastly Demise

3x Ancestral Vision
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Thoughtseize
1x Life from the Loam

4x Jace, TMS
2x Liliana of the Veil

3x Pernicious Deed

3x UG Sea
2x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
4x Polluted Delta
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Verdant Catacombs
2x Island
1x Forest
1x Swamp
2x Mishra's Factory
1x Creeping Tar Pit
3x Wasteland

SB:

2x Deathrite Shaman
2x Engineered Plague
1x Night of Soul's Betrayal
2x Flusterstorm
1x Life from the Loam
1x Vendilion Clique
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Thoughtseize
2x Surgical Extraction

There are a few points I'd like to discuss:

- Ancestral Vision over Standstill, pros and cons?
- Many lists are running Maelstrom Pulse. I'm not sure what I would need it for.
- Ghastly Demise or Innocent Blood?
- My sideboard is a little all over the place. Any suggestions? I expect the meta consists of all the usual suspects but I'm unsure of what to hate the most.
- Suggestions/tips/critique... anything.

I will have time for a very limited amount of testing so that's why I'm posting this random list here. Also, I've read some of this thread before but not a lot, so excuse me if I'm bringing up stuff that's been extensively discussed.

Thanks in advance!

[Kyle]

@weaselface

I like the list a lot. Here are some answers to your questions and some additional thoughts:

- You may want to consider cutting back the Ancestral Vision Maindeck or relegating it to the sideboard for combo matchups, as by removing Innocent Blood you become more vulnerable to T1 threats like Mother of Runes and Goblin Lackey (which are very relevant threats).
- That said, I would opt to go with Ancestral Visions over Standstill because this deck is super grindy and Standstill can backfire on you--your opponent could be smart and wait until your hand is full, then crack an instant for themselves during your end step, requiring you to discard; or you don't have a mainland in play or other pre-existing threat. Standstill is too unpredictable in my opinion and people play against very well, not to mention it being a dead card against Goblins, Merfolk, and Death & Taxes.
-Maelstrom Pulse is a killer of Tokens, Jace, Elspeth, Smokestack, and lots of other relevant threats. Having that extra out in case you couldn't counter that threat to begin with can be a big relief.
- Ghastly vs. Innocent Blood - run 1-2 of GD and 2-3 of Innocent Blood, IMO.
- Whenever I build a sideboard I always wonder what decks I'll bring in the card for, which seems elementary, but is a good, solid practice. Specifically I wonder about the Shamans. Are they there more for acceleration against combo or for damage, which this deck doesn't do that well. Another Board Sweeper like Damnation may be a good call, meta-wise.

[Chikenbok]

I still can't figure out why people are boarding in deathrite shaman in the pure control list... I really can't. If you wan't creatures with good utility, play Cliques and Confidants. Unless you're playing one of those weird MD DrShaman lists in which case, I don't get it.

Re Standstill vs. Visions: Neither of them get my vote but if you were to play one, play visions. People quickly remember how to play against standstill. Get innocent bloods back in your deck.

Re Pulse: Like Kyle said, Pulse is catch all to threats we couldn't deal with on the way down the most important of course, being jace. Nothing in the world feels worse than killing a jace with your own and being able to pulse a jace with pierce backup followed by your own wins most games.

Tons of tips on sideboarding over the last few pages, just read.

[bfeingersh]

Visions > Standstill. People still occasionally play Aether Vials and Goblin Lackeys.

Innocent Blood/Ghastly Demise are still fine but Decay covers all your bases so well it should be your primary removal. Use other cards to target things that fall through the cracks. I still have a Pulse in my list, and went to 3 thoughtseize because Decay can't hit Jace, which is a huge point of contention in the mirror and against UW or Stoneforge. Are we really discussing Smokestack as a reason to play Pulse?

[catmint]

I still can't figure out why people are boarding in deathrite shaman in the pure control list... I really can't. If you wan't creatures with good utility, play Cliques and Confidants. Unless you're playing one of those weird MD DrShaman lists in which case, I don't get it.

what is weird about a list with DrShaman?
Beeing a midrange/grindy controllish BUG deck with the best creatures available is a different take on BUG control that is in my opinion better positioned than the full blown control version in an open meta.

in the "creatureless" version I don't see shaman as a sideboard card. bad GY hate? bad life gain? for acceleration - against which deck?

[weaselface]

I got to do some testing yesterday:

- U/R Delver: Definately a good matchup. I think both games ended with Jace and Lilli on my side with like 10 life give or take and opponents hand empty.

- Goblins: It seemed I had to get max value from every card to keep up. No room for error but winnable nonetheless.

- Junk: Felt like a coinflip really. Very long drawn out games ending always in tdm. G1 must be a win or a quick scoop in a tournament.


Overall I really liked Vision, though I'm propably going to test without it too. Even when I drew it in mid-game I felt like I had to endure four more turns and then I win. The thing with Vision is I'm uncomfortable playing FoW with less than 20 blue cards, and even 20 has left me in trouble for quite a few times so I'm going for a bit more consistency this time around.

Also the amount of removal felt OK, but you guys might be right about Innocent Blood, so maybe I drop 1 GD, move Darkblast (which is sweet in so many matchups) to the SB and add a few IBs.

I wanted to try Deathrite Shaman as an all around sideboard tool. A little GY hate here, a little lifegain there, maybe some mana boost in the middle since I didn't want to commit a whole slot for the Burn matchup. But as it turned out he was not too impressive as many of you already knew so he's out. Maybe I'll bring Damnation or a Pulse back.

Other notes:

- 4 Jaces feels just the right number.
- Maybe it's a good idea to just dismiss the Burn matchup and go for Thoughtseizes only.
- It seems I never go for the kill with Mishras and the Tar Pit. Perhaps I'm doing it wrong.

[Madmankevinx]

I am starting to fall in love with this deck and would love some comments on my current build before trying it in a serious tourney.

The Deck:

Planeswalkers:
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Liliana of the Veil

Creatures:
2x Vendillion Clique
2x Snapcaster Mage

Instants:
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
2x Counterspell
4x Abrupt Decay

Sorceries:
2x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Life from the Loam
2x Ponder
1x Damnation
2x Innocent Blood

Enchantments:
1x The Abyss
1x Pernicious Deed

Land:
4x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
1x Bayou
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
1x Creeping Tar pit
3x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland

Sideboard:
2x Crop Rotation
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Karakas
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Envelop
2x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Flusterstorm
1x Duress
1x Damnation
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Dread of Night

Comments? Suggestions?

[catmint]

For Shardless builds there is a thread "shardless BUG", which is a good idea I think because even without cascade there are already different directions the deck can be taken. 4 Strix and 4 Shardless with Tez is a very neat idea. Not sure if just running jace is the better option, but kudos for the idea!

[danyul]

For Shardless builds there is a thread "shardless BUG", which is a good idea I think because even without cascade there are already different directions the deck can be taken. 4 Strix and 4 Shardless with Tez is a very neat idea. Not sure if just running jace is the better option, but kudos for the idea!

You got your BUG threads confused. This post clearly is in response to this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24698-Deck-BUG-quot-Shardless-quot-Control&p=687179&viewfull=1#post687179)

Right?

No biggie.

editedit - Wait. Maybe I'm wrong. Man my reading comprehension sucks.

editeditedit - ooooh. You were responding to the same post, one page back in this thread. This crossposting shit is VERY POOR PLAY.

On topic - I am a huge fan of Baleful Strix in these control builds. I run a full set + Volrath's Stronghold and Academy Ruins. Too cute? I run it in the slots where most people have Ghastly Demise/Innocent Blood.

[drfontaine]

I apologize, ill delete the post in this thread, and refer to keep posting in the shardless BUG thread in develpement instead. Guess this archetype is especially different from the regular BUG control posted in this thread. Thanks for response anyways, i greatly appreciate, i will continue developing, since i think it got nice potential ;).

[jamis]

I've been working on gathering all the cards for this deck slowly with no definite 60 cards planned. I finally got to the point where I'm only 2 Jace away, and started coming up with a list, but found it very hard to jam everything I want to do into 60 cards. Would appriciate some advice from people who have tournament experience with the archetype already to let me know where I should go with this.

2 Engineered Explosives
4 Mox Diamond
3 Predict
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
1 Darkblast
3 Innocent Blood
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Life from the Loam

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

2 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins

I'm basing this mostly off Boaz van Driel's list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50043). I really liked how he was able to get turn 2 Lilianas and turn 3 Jaces with the help of Mox Diamond

The only thing was, I am not a huge fan of Standstill, and would prefer Predict/SDT as it seems really great with Loam. The problem is it takes up 3 more slots, so I ended up moving FoW to the board, which I'm iffy on. I also wanted to play some snapcaster mages, but just couldn't find the room. I've been playing Team America which has made me feel I never want to play less than 4 Abrupt Decay, but maybe BUG control is different on its wants.

[TonyRo]

Just a few thoughts:

The list above looks like it auto-scoops to nearly every combo deck out there, no? If you don't draw one of your 2 counterspells you lose? Most BUG lists run ~4 FoW + 4 other counters of some kind, be it Spell Pierce, Counterspell, or Spell Snare. My list posted a few pages back has 4 discard spell spells and 8 Counterspells, and Omni-Tell is still a relatively close matchup because they're resilent and have FoW themselves.

If you're not playing Standstill, I'd probably cut a land. I also really believe deep down that playing with Top/Mox Diamond and E.E. is much worse than playing with Pernicious Deed and Ponder/Visions/Standstill with Mox Diamond. Engineered Explosives isn't even close to the power level of Deed, which is one of the best reasons to be in BUG at all.

I found during testing that Life from the Loam wasn't incredible. Good, but not great. I think 1-2 is probably the correct number.

Overall, the list just looks a little low on answers, possibly because the card advantage engine(s) of the deck in Loam, Top, Predict, couple with Mox Diamond take up a huge amount of slots.

[jamis]

Thanks for the advice. Yeah, I had 2 Spell piece to go along with the counterspells, but I noticed it was 61 cards, so I cut both and added the 3rd Innocent blood. Combo's not huge in my local meta, so I don't mind FoW being in the board too much, but it does exist enough that I should probably have more than 2 Counterspells.

You make a good point about the CA engines taking up a lot of space. I still like Mox Diamond a lot. After watching round 5 of SCG providence, it really convinced me how powerful it can be. I'll work on the list some more. I'll let you guys know what I come up with.

[phazonmutant]

I've been testing/brewing a BUG control list after getting frustrated to losing to Miracles with all these sweet combo decks.
I'm not playing discard main because it seems like counterspells are better, but what are your opinions on that? Discard definitely comes in for combo and stoneblade.


Beeing a midrange/grindy controllish BUG deck with the best creatures available is a different take on BUG control that is in my opinion better positioned than the full blown control version in an open meta.
Definitely agree with this. Did some preliminary testing without Goyf and the deck just felt underpowered compared to Miracles. You're giving up a 1-mana wrath, you need a brick wall that can close (the other incentives being Deed/Decay). You force the opponent to be prepared to deal with an aggro start as well as a crushing late game.

Testing so far:
Miracles - I'm 1-2 preboard (but that was the first time playing the control mirror, lost some winnable games), then 4-1 postboard very easily.
Thresh - 1-4 preboard (need to figure out how to play this better / change the list to beat thresh / crush them SB)

List:
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
1 Darkblast
4 Force of Will
1 Intuition
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Life from the Loam
2 Ponder
3 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Creeping Tar Pit

// sideboard
1 Extirpate
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Envelop
2 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Damnation
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Baleful Strix
1 Worm Harvest

Some thoughts:
- Deathrite has been very good whenever he's been in play, but people for whatever reason tend to get rid of him on sight. Hmm.
- Intuition is freaking amazing! Loam is fine, but you want to die when you draw the second. About the 1-of Wasteland, I had more, tested against Thresh, and realized I actively didn't want to use Wasteland. It's good for an answer to troublesome lands or late-game locks though. The Worm Harvest out of the board is literally gg for Miracles.
- I want to get some discard or Ancestral Vision in the md, but I think that moves it in a different direction. Might be correct though

- Oh, and the Strix(en?) are for thresh (and creature matchups) because Innocent Blood is bad when I'm playing all these men. Not sure if it's good yet.

[catmint]

I had a better RUG experience (altough it is always a tough matchup!) by running more removal.

This is my current list altough I am still thinking about Baleful strix & Liliana. Added these 4 cards to the maindeck due to a good impact on the RUG matchup & a decent overall playability. Specific comments below.

23 lands, 4 basics, 3 Wasteland


//Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage

//Removal
2 Ghastly Demise
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil

//Disruption
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce

//Utility
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


//Sideobard
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Envelop
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Life from the Loam


So compared to your list:
I would not run a BUG deck without maindeck discard. It trades versus important creatures and has a pretty strong impact on control/combo + a good synergy with snapcaster mage.

Vendilion Clique was maindeck first, but I decided to play 2 liliana instead (which I usually had in the SB). Clique is very important for micales, stoneblade and combo and comes in from the board. Having both liliana & clique maindeck seems too clunky to me and with discard, liliana & snapcaster discard there is also a fair amount of hand control even without clique.

Baleful Strix is pretty good against RUG and at least decent against the field. So far I've been happy with my 2 maindeck copies.

Pernicious Deed does not belong to the maindeck if you play a build with 4 deathrite and 3+ Tamogoyf I feel. I bring deed in when games are grindy and some number of creatures go out: Miracles, Maverick,... In this matchups deed shines most.

Jitte: not sure about it - pretty negative tempo impact if you spend 4 mana and 1-2 turns just to have your creature killed by a 1 mana removal. Jitte is very good in lingering souls builds, but in this deck I am not 100% convinced.

Intuition, Loam: Also too much negative tempo impact for me to be maindeck material. Esper stopped playing it altough they have lingering souls/cabal therapy synergy. Just for Loam I don't think it is worth it.

Counterspell: This card is much better in the creatureless version or in "only tap my mana end of your turn for SD.top or removal - miracles"

Darkblast: Not maindeck material for me. My removal has to kill a flipped delver, a tarmogoyf, a goblin lord, an ooze or a knight. Even in the sideobard I rather go for EE, Deed, Edict over darkblast. If you expect a fair amount of maverick or elves darkblast is a valid choice though.

Ponder: Deabiting with myself - this card is good early & late + the best manafixer. I'll try to get away without it and just run "real" gas instead. But having 1-2 Ponder really smoothes out draws.

[Kotowari]

Lately a lot of people are proposing creature builds for BUG controls. Here is my take, which I just did 4-0-1 (ID) with in local tournament, report from which can be found here:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25106-Top4-split-with-BUG-Control-at-Pyroblast-Legacy-Open-Poznan-Poland

Before (few months ago) I was playing BUG Intuition, with loam/wasteland/raven's crime/worm harvest package. I found this deck to be painfully slow and without good clock vs combo decks. Thats why instead of typical creatureless BUG build with planewalkers i brewed following list (also thanks to great additions to this archetype from RTR: Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay):

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage

3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
1 Life from the Loam
1 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Flooded Strand

SB: 1 Thoughtseize
3 Hydroblast/BeB
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Darkblast
1 Life from the Loam
2 Extirpate
3 Kitchen Finks

Explanation about some of the deck choices:
- Baleful Strix is a great control creature vs creature decks, which also acts as a cantrip or FoW pitch card in creatureless/combo matchups. It is amazing how single strix can stop large goyfs from attacking. Also one of the best creatures vs RUG delver.
- Deathrite Shaman is an amazing creature, even when drawn in multiples. In legacy there is so many cards in graveyard anyway, so they act as a lifegain vs aggresive decks, kill method vs slow decks and mana acceleration vs everybody. Even tho I don't have too many expensive spells, being able to play shaman t1, goyf/confidant t2 daze-proof (or with spell pierce protection) is a nice thing to have.
- Thoughtseize - best discard, able to pick problematic cards like Jace. Also further helps us with combo matchup.
- Umezawa's Jitte is here to help in those matchups where losing life to fetches/confidant/thoughtseize might be troublesome. Playing 16 creatures helps with equip (even sometimes deathrite shaman can swing in with jitte and empty board). Also nice with strixes, which can get counters by flying over potential blockers.
- Goyf + Confidant - they help to swing games fast in our favor either by killing them (duh) or generating massive card advantage.
- Ponder - I love seeing many cards (especially with 1-of loam, jitte and 2-of strixes, not able to search them via intuition), and ponder does the job. Also pondering in the late game let's you find cards you need (usually decay or more threats). I miss 4th ponder.
- no manlands - with so many creatures manlands are not required and we can smooth our mana base thanks to only 2 colorless lands.
- no planewalkers - i am still debating with myself should i include some planewalkers in this build. I think I need to test 2 jaces in "open slots" (removing 1 jitte and 1 other card).
- spell snare - another card i would like to include in "open slots", to help even more with combo matchup.
SB: - 4 Pernicious Deed - i never boarded more than 3 deeds anyway, so I think will go down to 3 and make room for some other card.
- Extirpate - costing 1 mana more than extraction it's better in control matchup (for example i would board it in vs BUG standstill, to remove his Jace/removal or blank his snapcaster), where they cannot counter it.
- Kitchen Finks - i like this resilent creature, good vs edict effect, good for racing in certain matchups. This is the most debatable slot in the sideboard.

[catmint]

Confidant is always tempting but I've never played it in BUG since ages ago.

The problem I have with this specific 2 drop as opposed to other card advantage "2 drops" like baleful strix or snapcaster mage is that with tiago and strix we are "guaranteed" to get additional value once you cast them. If confidant is killed you lost tempo - if he survives for 2+ turns you got above average value. Confidant is therefore a bit more swingy.

Also confidant is just outright bad versus aggressive decks (RUG). Sure there will be the games where you have a high life total and he celebrate a big win vs. RUG, but usually you are hit hard and confidants life loss is a liability or he is removed immediately providing a tempo loss compared to something else you could have done for 2 mana.

Against miracles/UW, confidant is much better because it is a must kill - however again compared to tiago/strix you do not have a guaranteed 2 for 1.

Against Maverick/combo is where confidant is at his best imo, since it is most likely to live.

If I would include confidant I would put 2-3 in my 75. Problem is, cards I would want to cut are 3rd snapcaster mage, 3rd Jace, 4th FoW… all blue cards making the blue count an issue (19 blue cards in my current build). :frown:

[Chikenbok]

Confidant has been sitting pretty as a 4 of in my SB since I started playing the deck and it single handedly wins me almost every g2 - I am playing creatureless if that's of any help mind you, my currently list - not much different than my last one:



//Creatures 3
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

//Planeswalkers // 6
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil

//Spells 28
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Life from the Loam
3 Pernicious Deed

//Lands 23
3 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Creeping Tar-pit
The rest.

//SB 15
4 x Dark Confidant
1 x Vendilion Clique
2 x Engineered Plague
1 x Darkblast
2 x Flusterstorm
1 x Relic of Progenitus
1 x Damnation
1 x Perish
2 x Surgical Extraction



Deck rules.

[gamegeek2]

With SCG Baltimore coming up, I've decided to resurrect this deck and give it another go, since I liked it a lot when I played it before Abrupt Decay came out. However, I'm kind of stuck over a few slots in my deck.

This is what I know I want to play:

15 Fetches/Duals
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland

4 Jace TMS
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Innocent Blood
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell

SB:
1 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Vendilion Clique - I love this guy, and having him come in helps me win games before time as well.

My problem is deciding how to fill out the rest of the MD and sideboard, whether to make the deck more graveyard/recursion based or not. Here's what I've come up with:

MD: 2 Engineered Explosives
MD: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Intuition
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Tabernacle (hopefully I can borrow this, if not it'll become a Damnation)
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage

The idea is that you can board in Intuition and some cards that are useful in the matchup to destroy your opponent. My concern is that this is perhaps too "win-more" or "sounds good" and that it will be a lot weaker if I can't find a Tabernacle.

The alternative is this:

MD: 3 Pernicious Deed/Engineered Explosives
SB: Other stuff, probably including 1 LftL, some mixed graveyard hate, and some mass removal; alternatively, I'm considering some Tarmogoyfs, again to help with the time problem, substituting from 1 Clique and additional removal.

I'm also not sure whether to put another dual/fetch in the deck or stick a third wasteland in; I'm concerned about having access to double-blue for Counterspell if I only have 16 blue sources or ways to get them.

What do you guys think?

[TonyRo]

I love Pernicious Deed, so I'd tell you to throw in 3 of them MD with a LftL, cutting an Abrupt Decay. If you throw in the Life From the Loam, I'd probably cut a Factory or a real card and add a Wasteland. I like playing with 24 lands in this deck, but that's just me - you really want to hit 4 - 6 mana reliably, and in general, this deck has one of the greediest manabases in the format.

[Kyle]

DTB BAY-BIE.

In all seriousness, I have been ridiculously impressed with Dark Confidant lately. Other than Deathrite Shaman, anyone have any recommendations on some okay-ish lifegain? I'd like to feel more confident about losing life and stabilizing at less than 10 life. Ooze? Imma playin' the Creatureless version 4ever.

@chikenbok: How are you finding the MD Clique? Also, I notice you cut the singleton Ghastly Demise... Yikes.

[Chikenbok]

@chikenbok: How are you finding the MD Clique? Also, I notice you cut the singleton Ghastly Demise... Yikes.

Eh, the clique comes in and out constantly for the 4th Jace, 3rd Snapcaster, extra whatever else. Usually turn 3 I want to be casting liliana so the cliques have *occasionally* been a bit clunky but I got angry losing a few games in a row to a shitty storm pilot so I put him MD, he probably won't stay there.

I know.. I know.. I cut the demise (and was quite concerned when doing it).. but in testing... really.... What do we need it for anymore?

[warfordium]

here's my latest iteration of the deck. played this list at a GPT this past Saturday and went 3-1-1 to place 3rd after the swiss, lost to sdematt, ground out a draw with OmniShow. scooped to high tide in top 4…

BUG intuition


1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
4 polluted delta
2 misty rainforest
1 Flooded strand
1 Verdant catacombs

2 Intuition
2 Life from the Loam
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Baleful Strix
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
2 Mana Leak
2 Spell Pierce
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Darkblast
1 Go for the Throat
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek


37 Spells

Sideboard

3 lingering souls
1 intuition
1 worm harvest
1 raven's crime
3 pithing needle
2 extirpate
2 nihil spellbomb
1 tabernacle
1 maelstrom pulse



i played a very similar list at SCG Seattle and went 6-2-2. Losses to Thopter Combo and Deadguy Ale there, eked out a draw with Goblins (though my opponent wouldnt scoop to my 3-turns active jace…with an empty hand). second draw was an ID to lock up cash.


2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Darkblast
1 Go For the Throat
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Brainstorm
3 Baleful Strix
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
3 Force of Will


1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Island
2 Trop
3 Bayou
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wasteland


RUG, Miracles, Maverick = No problem. Discard and goblins are the deck's weak spots. Strix and Decay are the cards which let this deck get to the late game, and are my rationale for building it. What i'm looking for are more resilient game-ending threats, and something to shore up the goblins matchup. the creature finisher slots have been occupied by thrun, scavenging ooze, and batterskull at times. one of my criteria has been resistance to exile effects (thus the lack of creeping tar pit in the earlier list). Ooze helps stabilize in the some of the creature matchups, but is also susceptible to deed.

the FoW-less list was a metagame call for the GPT, as i was expecting mostly an aggro field. the white splash for lingering souls also opens up the ability to EE for 4 without deathrite shaman in play, but the 4th colour is a wee bit greedy, even with the 2 Loams. adding intuition was a concession to wanting to run a toolbox out of the sideboard with Academy Ruins in the main.

I really liked having access to academy ruins to recur strixes and EE, and for the synergy with intuition/loam and pithing needles/nihil spellbomb. i feel that the list needs a wee bit of help from you all to help it finish faster. i really wish i could put my eggs all in the gifts/iona/unburial rites basket but even with deathrite shaman and strix/decay to help buy time i feel its too mana intensive. i spend a lot of games hoping my opponents arent on the "wasteland him" plan. i have even pondered entomb as a tutor for loam in order to combat the mana denial aspects of goblins, junk, and merfolk decks.

I dont like Liliana, personally, because i'm a full-grip kind of control player. She's alright once you have Loam online, but finding loam isnt the easiest before jace hits (the second loam is just dreadful to see).

suggestions? i wish there was a nice, compact combo finish that fit nicely into this shell. (i.e. gifts/rites) how janky would a "mill you" plan be? Liliana + Drownyard? i'd like to take this to Denver but the list needs that last push over the edge. please help!

[Water_Wizard]

Very interesting lists and thank you for sharing. I am going to brainstorm a number of ideas that came to mind. I'm sure you've already thought of most of them, but one or more might click.

Mishra's Factory is a possible closer - you still have the exile problem, but a Wasteland fixes that. Similar to Creeping Tar Pit, so perhaps, not idea.

Night of Soul's Betrayal would help out vs. Goblins. So would Engineered Plague. Even Propaganda would help a lot. The only problem with Propaganda is that it is a blue card and thus susceptible to REB/Pyroblast. If you keep running white, Ghostly Prison does the same thing as Propaganda and it will be more difficult for Goblins to destroy. Even a Maze of Ith would go a long way. The Abyss is another option. Tabernacle should own Goblins, maybe a Crop Rotation to help you find it? Crop Rotation is also a nice trick to stop Wasteland.

Tombstalker may be a notable closer. Troll Ascetic (probably not as good as Thrun). Garruk Relentless (this would also help out with the Goblins m/u). Death's Shadow, although that probably requires a different deck.

Sphinx of Jwar Isle - it would be possible to cast in the late game and comes with shroud and flying.

Damnation is another option. Rocking 1-2 Damnations would go a long way to beating the Goblins m/u.

Kitchen Finks may also be worth a shot vs. Goblins. Slow, but usually takes out 2 Goblins and nets you 4 life.

Wurmcoil Engine shuts down Goblins, but it may be difficult to reach 6 mana and it is susceptible to exile effects.

Glacial Chasm is one final option. It fits well with Life from the Loam and Crop Rotation (if you decide to go that route), but it is susceptible to Wasteland and you will eventually run out of lands (assuming you sacrifice it each upkeep and return it with Life from the Loam).

Out of everything I've just listed, I'm going to say my top 3 suggestions for your deck are:
Damnation
Garruk Relentless
Sphinx of Jwar Isle

I don't know what else to suggest unless you want to switch directions of the deck and run Tarmogoys or Shardless Agents. I've recently been running the Shardless Agent version, and while it's cute, I think it might be too much (it's usually too much to set up your cascade target and cast SA by turn 3).

[Lim-Dul]

With the printing of deathrite shaman and Abrupt decay the BUG (Heavy-)Control deck is strong enoughe again!! Love that!! :smile:

i would like to get some imputs about my list. i have a few open questions, but first i give you my list:

Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman

Planeswalker
4 JtMS
2 Liliana of the Veil

Counterspells
4 FoW
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce

Removal
3 Abrput Decay
2 Ghastly Demise
2 EE
1 Mahlstrom Pulse

Card-Advantage/Draw
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 LftL

Lands 23
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island
2 Wasteland
3 Mishras Factory
1 Academy Ruins

Sideboard
2 Vendillion clique
3 Dark Confidant
1 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Dark Blast
1 Damnation
3 Pernicous Deed
2 Nihil Spellbomb


This deck has some strong plays in the first few turns:
T1 Shaman > T2 Lili > T3Jace or LftL and Wasteland/Discard
T1 Shaman > T2 Standstill with Pierce/demise backup> 3 cards for the win



Open questions:
1. i am very unsure about the sideboard. and i usually suck at making a good SB. suggestions?

2. are 23 Lands /8 Fetches enoughe to make the shaman a reliable manadork?

3. can the shaman be played along with LftL? the LftL is not needed in every MU. in the SB? only one main and one intuition?

[phazonmutant]

So compared to your list:
I would not run a BUG deck without maindeck discard. It trades versus important creatures and has a pretty strong impact on control/combo + a good synergy with snapcaster mage.

Vendilion Clique was maindeck first, but I decided to play 2 liliana instead (which I usually had in the SB). Clique is very important for micales, stoneblade and combo and comes in from the board. Having both liliana & clique maindeck seems too clunky to me and with discard, liliana & snapcaster discard there is also a fair amount of hand control even without clique.

Baleful Strix is pretty good against RUG and at least decent against the field. So far I've been happy with my 2 maindeck copies.

Pernicious Deed does not belong to the maindeck if you play a build with 4 deathrite and 3+ Tamogoyf I feel. I bring deed in when games are grindy and some number of creatures go out: Miracles, Maverick,... In this matchups deed shines most.

Jitte: not sure about it - pretty negative tempo impact if you spend 4 mana and 1-2 turns just to have your creature killed by a 1 mana removal. Jitte is very good in lingering souls builds, but in this deck I am not 100% convinced.

Intuition, Loam: Also too much negative tempo impact for me to be maindeck material. Esper stopped playing it altough they have lingering souls/cabal therapy synergy. Just for Loam I don't think it is worth it.

Counterspell: This card is much better in the creatureless version or in "only tap my mana end of your turn for SD.top or removal - miracles"

Darkblast: Not maindeck material for me. My removal has to kill a flipped delver, a tarmogoyf, a goblin lord, an ooze or a knight. Even in the sideobard I rather go for EE, Deed, Edict over darkblast. If you expect a fair amount of maverick or elves darkblast is a valid choice though.

Ponder: Deabiting with myself - this card is good early & late + the best manafixer. I'll try to get away without it and just run "real" gas instead. But having 1-2 Ponder really smoothes out draws.

You make good points, thanks for the advice! I have to differ with some of them though. First, a list and a small tournament report:

3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Brainstorm
1 Darkblast
4 Force of Will
1 Intuition
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Life from the Loam
2 Ponder
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Creeping Tar Pit

// sideboard
1 Extirpate
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Envelop
2 Thoughtseize
1 Damnation
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Worm Harvest
1 Baleful Strix
1 Flusterstorm

I played a local tournament today, about 20 people entered. Split Top 4 (although I desperately wanted to dreamcrush and play it out, people wanted to get sleep for work).
Round 1 - modern Pyromancer Ascension.
His deck was bad, he was bad.
1-0

Round 2 - Death & Taxes
The guy admitted that he was newish to legacy. Didn't help me though. Game 1 I crushed him with Jitte, helped by Darkblast to seal the deal. Games 2 and 3 I kept 2-landers with Deathrite Shaman and he was able to Waste and Revoker me out of the game both games. Probably poor keeps, and also showed that the deck's mana is not terribly consistent with respect to both colors and number of sources before turn 3. He played well.
1-1

Round 3 - Dredge
I played tight to win off the back of the Deathrite Shaman and Darkblasting his Ichorids on upkeep g1 (although did make a major mistake by not Abrupt Decaying my Shaman to RFG his Bridges). G2 I opened with 4 hate cards (1 DRS, 2 Surgical, 1 Ooze), very easily won.
2-1

Round 4 - ID
A bunch of people with fair records dropped because of sleepy, strip clubs, beer, etc.

Quarters - D&T (same player)
I got my revenge by crushing him both games. G1 killed him by Decaying his Jitte then dropping my own after looking unfavorable for a bit. G2 he flooded a bit after I killed his Stoneforge (which found the Skull) and Cliqued his Flickerwisp in response to Vial. Beat down with Goyf and Jace on D.

To respond to Catmint's points:
- You're right, discard is awesome. Splitting between board and main is just smart because counterspells suck in a bunch of matchups.
- Clique is good. They have to deal with it ASAP, allows sweet Loam tricks, etc. Also flying is a huge deal in Legacy (still).
- 2 Strix main is definitely correct. They are awesome, especially with Stronghold. Had that happen a couple times. Not sure about the board Strix. Seems not very impactful.
- You're right about Deed. 2 in the board is probably correct.
- Jitte is negative tempo, but I'm not a tempo deck. I'm an aggro-control deck leaning towards control. Jitte is an enormous trump to a third of the field, almost an instant win once you connect with it. It proved its slot today.
- You're right that Intuition isn't positive tempo, but it provides a huge late-game burst of cards. It's either an enormous trump, a lock, or a well-needed tutor for removal. I loved the work it did today. Volrath's stronhold is insane, Loam is very good against the field of Wasteland decks, Darkblast does an insane amount of work against a variety of decks. Intuition is awesome.
- The deck was much smoother without Counterspell, thanks for the suggestion.
- Darkblast: see above.
- Ponder has been ok. Not impressed. Tried Vision briefly, even less impressed.

Some thoughts:
- My board sucks, but I thought it would be good against the small field I was expecting. Saw a couple dredge, a good storm player, no miracles before the tournament.
- I'm very unimpressed with Snapcaster. One is often fine after turn 4, multiples suck, and he makes Intuition piles much much better.
- Volrath's Stronghold, Darkblast, and Intuition are the real deal. Any games that go longer than turn 4 or 5 are dominated by those cards.

[catmint]

Concerning the Goblin matchup:

Damnation is not a very good card vs. goblins. Ringleader, Matron make sure they fill up as they play creatures and if they have plenty of mana + cards in the late game with haste you might not see another turn.

The best cards against goblins are: Tarmogoyf & Snapcaster Mage

Goyf: Wall to defend your walkers/life total and pretty fast win if you kill their vial and are trying to tempo them out.

Snapcaster mage: Reusing your removal or discard (removal on lords on the board and discard primarily for matron/ringleader) is key.

Vial has to die even if you don't plan on countering a ton. They get too many sick turns out of it.

In general if you can get a tempo advantage and protect a walker you have a pretty good chance. Since they have inevitability in the late game (if we don't stick a jace) you have to either tempo them out (getting damage through with Goyf and finish off with "lavamancer") or "locking them out" with liliana or jace.

The creatureless version has the problem that protecting walkers is much more difficult and jace is pretty bad (haste, red-blast) and that you do not really have the option of tempoing them out (killing them fast with Goyf/Deathrite).

Also deed is not great vs. goblins, because altough it kills their vials as well they can often play around it very effectively by playing only matrons, ringleaders. You will endup blowing deed to kill some goblin + vial, which is a bad trade if you invested a lot of "tempo-loss" in it.

They ways to improve Goblins for the creatureless version is imo:
- use Ancestral Visions to just overwhelm them so you can eventually stick a walker
- use powerful enchantments like Plague to significantly hurt their development (altough their lords, ringleaders and piledrivers survive anyway).
- use non-blue walkers which put bodies on the board.

Concerning Cascade:
I played a lot of RUG cascade, RUGb cascade and also tested BUG cascade.
The tradeoff for using cascade is that you cannot play spell pierce and want to cut down on removal which is often a dead cascade. Pierce is very important in the "jace-war" vs. all kinds of blue based control decks and combo and a lot of removal is the key to beating mother, lackey & delver. This is a big downside that cannot fully be compensated by a "swingy" 2/2 for 3 mana. Sometimes you do something unfair (ancestral) and sometimes you do nothing. The unfair "3 mana for a 2/2 + a Hymn/Ancestral" can also be stopped pretty effectively by spell pierce & daze. To make your cascades better you would have to run more library manipulation like SD.top, but having a lot of tempo-negative durdling around with top is imo only worth it if you get a 1 mana instant wrath and some sick angel tokens out of the deal.

My conclusions: If you want to play cascade go for red to get access to Bloodbraid, Bolt & Fire-ice. In BUG it is not worth it given the gameplan is more non-linear and you have many other pretty powerful things to do at 3 mana.

[Water_Wizard]

@ phazonmaunt - Good analysis - I especially liked your bottom two sections.

@ catmint - very well said! It seems like you have a lot of experience with this deck and I appreciate you sharing it!

Two other thoughts for possible additions.

The first is Teferi's Response. This card used to see some play back with Landstill was the #1 deck. It may be too narrow now. However, it seems like it would rock certain decks, especially a deck that runs both Wasteland and Rishidan Port (aka Goblins). Destroys their Port, protects your land, and draws you two cards = not bad.

The second is Volrath's Stronghold. As mentioned above, Stronghold is particularly strong with Baleful Strix.

[phazonmutant]

Catmint - I haven't played the Goblins matchup, but I can see how it would be hard. A 100-man tournament in Europe (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9546) was won by BUG tempo and had 3 other BUG decks in the top 8. All but one had 3+ Engineered Plagues in the board.

So...what about the European metagame makes EPlague a necessity? Obviously it's good against Goblins, is that a bad enough matchup that we need 3? It seems mediocre against Fish, but ok against white creature decks (Maverick, D&T, maybe Deadguy). The question: is Deed bad enough against those decks (or with our own creatures) that EPlague is correct?
Deed is more versatile in that it's good against Miracles, Affinity, and manlands, but worse in that it's slower, vulnerable to Needle/Revoker/Stifle, and 2 colors.

[catmint]

Yes I saw it. Made me think about testing it. It is a bit narrow, since it takes a board control slot which is useless against RUG, but it hits 8+ creatures out of Maverick (Can imagine that hierarchs come out against BUG) so maybe it is better than I thought there. Could also be that this was a group expecting tons of elves.

I don't think the goblin matchup is too hard honestly. We attack their hand, their board/vials & play bigger creatures & acceleration. The game is pretty simple actually: Kill Vial, lords, Lackey - discard/counter Matron/Ringleader. Goblins is still hard and you have to fight and play well against an experienced pilot, but I rather play Goblins than Maverick.

[Water_Wizard]

Problem with Deed vs. Goblins is that X needs to get too high. A lot of their deck is CC=>3. Once you play Deed turn 3, then you have to hit your 4th land drop (assuming you hit your first 3), and then you have to blow it. I played BUG vs. Goblins with Deed, and the problem with Goblins is that their creature's converted mana costs are too high for Deed to be effective.
Goblins can go fast or slow. They can drop a Warchief, give all their guys haste, and wipe you out in a turn or two, or then can hold back, playing 1-2 threats at a time and making you inefficiently use your sweepers.
Plague is a great answer, because it is permanent, and unless they are playing Krosan Grip (which a lot of the American lists are), they are dead to it. Even though Goblins have high CMC, they usually have small bodies, so 1 E. Plague stops 50%+ of their creatures and 2 = GG.
It is more difficult to counter goblins, especially with Cavern of Souls.
Goblins plays out differently than Elves or Affinity, which essentially attempt to dump their hand as quickly as possible. Against Elves or Affinity a Deed for 1 (or even 0 vs. Affinity) can do a lot of damage. Goblins can go fast or slow and can be explosive with EOT Vial and hasted Piledrivers. Literally, an empty board can become Goblin Warchief (end of turn Aether Vial) to Mogg War Marshall, Piledriver, GG.
As catmint mentioned, discard, especially Hymn, is good vs. Goblins because they will hold larger creatures in hand. IoK is okay, but will not hit Ringleader or Seige-Gang Commander. Thoughtseize is okay, but the loss of two life can hurt.

[Koplinchen]

I am not sure if this is the right thread but we were working on a deck that Caleb brought up.

We wanted to play Shardless Agent. You can do that with 1) suspend 2) equipment 3) Cabal Therapy.

I tried the first two combined in bant deck but it was not very stable.

Then we changed Caleb deck from one of the SCG into:

3 Pernicious Deed
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Coiling Oracle
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Island
4 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Baleful Strix
1 Grave Titan/Cons. Sphinx
3 Shardless Agent
3 Force of Will
1 Batterskull
1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed
SB: 2 Counterbalance
SB: 1 Nether Void (a lot of combo here in Prague)
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 2 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil

It is a great fun to play this deck. It is very stable and many cards are pure CA. Therapy+Jace+Deed make a great deck.

Against "fair" deck you are near unstoppable. Maverick is almost no fun to play against, Rug and merfolks are more challenging, but you are the boss here.
Against "unfair" you have Cabal Therapy (you know what your frinds are up to, dont you?), fow, possibly ooze and a lot in SB. I played against ANT a lot and it is pretty close - good news for this kind of deck.

If you have any questions or comments feel free to comment.

[phazonmutant]

I love me some Shardless Agent, but I'm nervous about playing against thresh and combo with a bunch of multicolored 3-drops and no Pierces. But if you've been having good results, it seems worth testing.

How has Veteran Explorer been working out for you? It seems like he's not very good right now because almost every deck plays a bunch of basic lands and can benefit from them about as much as you can. How has the Miracles matchup been?

[Water_Wizard]

I like your deck and I like your idea. Thank you for sharing. It may be more appropriate to post in the Nic Fit forum, as the deck uses Cabal Therapy and Veteran Explorer. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20983-Deck-Nic-Fit-(GBW-Explorer-Zenith-Control)

There is also a thread for Shardless Agent decks. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24698-Deck-BUG-quot-Shardless-quot-Control

If your deck is unique, you may want to start your own thread, probably in New and Developmental.

[phazonmutant]

For what it's worth, there's a thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25093-Deck-BUG-Explorer) in New and Dev that looks very similar. It looks like it's trying to get off the ground, but it's pretty sweet.

[mike1987]

I changed my bug control to a more midrange sorta deck due to time issues and found it quite fun to play with.

22 Lands
3 Trops
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
3 Wasteland
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest

11 Creatures
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster mage
2 Vendilion Clique

2 Artifacts
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Instants/Sorceries
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt decay
2 IOK
2 Thoughtseize
2 Spell pierce
1 Counterspell
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Diabolic edict

5 Planeswalkers
3 Jace, TMS
2 Liliana of the veil

The SDT really smooths the card drawing quite a bit, especially if the games go long. Overall I am quite happy with the deck, it's a blast :tongue:

[Koplinchen]

I love me some Shardless Agent, but I'm nervous about playing against thresh and combo with a bunch of multicolored 3-drops and no Pierces. But if you've been having good results, it seems worth testing.

How has Veteran Explorer been working out for you? It seems like he's not very good right now because almost every deck plays a bunch of basic lands and can benefit from them about as much as you can. How has the Miracles matchup been?

Thanks for the reply. Very challenging was rug since you really want to see both - Explorer and Therapy. So we added Abrupt Decay. That card is 1) anticounterbalance 2) antiRUG.

As we all know Veteran Explorer is usullay a bit weak against Jace decks. That's why Pulses, Clique in the side. I played Miracles twice and it is pretty tough. Jace and Top are the biggest enemies. Volrath's Stronghold is very good here. Miracles have very hard times against resolved Jace. Jitte is also good since it allows you not ot overextend.

Combo match is very interesting and you must play well. Last Thursday I mulled into 4 - 2lands, thereapy, Ooze. Started with cabal on Infernal Tutor, discarding one and stopping him form killing me NOW. Then I drew Baleful Strix - Therapy again. Then I played Ooze stopping his Past in Flames. ...
Perfect is TOP+Fow or after side TOP+Flusterstorm.

[catmint]

I am a bit worried about the spell ghastly demise. With deathrite beeing so pupolar it sucks not be able to take him out early except with decay. He also pushes more dark confidant and baleful strix in the meta.

To replace the 1cmc slot dismember is an option but the life loss hurts too much I think. Disfigure takes out mystic, delver, shaman, mavericks small stuff and is at least a combat trick for bigger creatures. Disfigure will be painful against ooze, knight & Goyf, but Decay, Liliana & sideboard got to take care of that. I figure :wink: its the best option atm.

[Kyle]

I changed my bug control to a more midrange sorta deck due to time issues and found it quite fun to play with.

Hey Mike - fun list, I've been also really enjoying the Goyf + Shaman version lately (though I'm particularly partial to the Creatureless version).

Have you considered Sylvan Library instead of Sensei's Divining Top? It's just way too good.

I also like the 2 Snapcaster, 2 Clique split - I think it's the way to go in this version. Also, I think 4 Abrupt Decays is so necessary, as it takes out 75% of Legacy threats.

Did y'all see the "Creatureless" version that took Top4 at SCG Baltimore this past weekend? It's running DrShamans. http://www.starcitygames.com/events/121202_baltimore.html. There were actually 4 BUG varieties in the Top8. Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman FTW I guess...

Edit:

@catmint: I've seen some people on Cockatrice lately jamming Disfigure, and it's pretty good, though I'm having trouble giving up my Ghastly Demises... it's so good against everything non-Deathrite...

[jamis]

You make a good point about the CA engines taking up a lot of space. I still like Mox Diamond a lot. After watching round 5 of SCG providence, it really convinced me how powerful it can be. I'll work on the list some more. I'll let you guys know what I come up with.

So I refined it a bit. Think there's still room for improvement, though. This is what I think I'm going with

4 Jace TMS
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Worm Harvest

4 Brainstorm

2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
3 Force of Will

1 Darkblast
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Maelstom Pulse

3 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond

1 Academy Ruins
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Creeping Tarpits
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta

After playing the list a few times, I felt both E.E. and Lili needed to be bumped up to 3. I'm also thinking about replacing a Spell Pierce with another Counterspell. There's been a few times where Spell Pierce has sucked either because I drew it too late in the game, or my opponent just played creature after creature while I was holding up spell piece mana. Counterspell on the other hand, has been solid pretty much every time I've seen it. Though, I still haven't' tested against any combo, so maybe a 2/2 split is right.

I also just threw worm harvest in. I haven't seen it in any of the games I've tested so far. It seems good in theory in that it can throw some chumps out while I try to stabilize, and provide a quick win once the loam engine is going.

[catmint]

Yes the 4 BUG decks in the top 8 were interesting.
The community seems to give the delver plan more potential, which has now with deathrite, more lands and a jace sideobard it's own identity and is not just Canadian replacing some spells. To me the threats are too fragilfe for a tempo deck.

The 2 BUG control decks are also interesting:

Jarvis Wu with a confidant plan running daze to support it.

Brian with EE instead of dead supporting deahtrite and 5 cmc4 walkers in a 24 land build running 6 colorless lands and Goyfs in the board.

You already know my opinion about conficant as a primary gameplan http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23429-DTB-Team-America-%28Midrange-Control-Thread%29&p=687797&viewfull=1#post687797
...altough I am testing 2 in the board atm to bring it in against control & removal light decks and in this specific matchups he has been good.

Concerning Brians version:
More lands and more walkers instead of some creatures is also something I was thinking about, but not to the extend of cutting all the goyfs. Also fell in love with Baleful Strix. :) -> E. Explosives is not that necessary with Decay I feel.
6 colorless lands and 1 creeping tar pit seems very risky even in a loam build. If I have to deal with an early delver/goyf/lackey/mother I don't want to be forced to loam first to make sure I can cast my decay.

[jeanbathez]

In the last weeks i tested a lot of Versions Bug tempo with Stifle and Nimble and so on, with Confis and and ..... Atm i got the feeling that Bug midrange ist the best version, for my meta (a lot of combo) and my playstyle.
What i realized is, Deathride is so good (nothing new), and that Deathride into turn 3 Jace, won me a few games :-)
So i ended in a midrange versions similar to catmint, and i also wanted to test Strix ;-)

@catmint : how does your list looks like and how did the strix perform ?

[catmint]

One comment to Mox Diamond. It is of course more stable and explosive than deathrite in terms of acceleration, but deathrite does so much more and is a good topdeck. compared to mox diamond which is usually a horrible one. Calling a "mana-elf" a good topdeck is also rather rare. :smile:

Baleful Strix performed as expected (good), but I still play with 3 snapcaster, 2 Strix. Snapcaster is obv. better on the offensive whereas strix is good defensively, but snapcaster into Pierce, discard, decay or brainstorm is more versatile. What I like most about strix is its premium ability to defend walkers while providing card advantage. My favourite early turn include discard, deathrite, strix into walker.

I put the cliques in the board, because I wanted to run liliana maindeck and the curve was getting a bit too high.
The Goyfs are there for offensive & defensive purposes, but often come out to make space for cliques or confidants.

My current list:

[cards]

//lands: maybe -1 trop + 1 Bay, -1 misty +1 verdant would be correct. Haven’t changed the manabase although changins spells, so might not be optimal
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant catacombs

//creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful strix
3 Snapcaster Mage

//walkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

// Utility – debating in bringin a singleton Ponder/Library – but tough to make space.
4 Brainstorm

//Disruption
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Disfigure
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will

//Sideboard
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Dark Confidant
1 Life from the Loam
2 Counterspell
[cards]

Played around with the sideboard a lot. Deed got less and less important to win, but is still a good too in creature matchups and against UW.
Edict is for Mongoose and not a bad spell against most creature decks.
Surgicals might cutable since deathrite help with dredge more than I thought.
Counterspell is solid versus combo cause of deathrite and I figure pretty good against UW. In UW they should not be able to beat us with a mystic or some random 4/4 angels due to our removal. So it is basically all about jace and clique since she enables and kills jaces. Our discard is “bad” vs. SD.top and counterspell just hits everything, but is not a maindeckable card if you rund so many “tap-out” cards.

[jeanbathez]

@ catmint : Thanks, your list is very smiliar to mine, what a suprise :smile:

I' am still not sold on the liliana maindeck, atm i prefer clique or cantrips...perhaps its just me...

1 mana removal, i still don't like it, but must admit it must be played : i remember a game two weeks ago against goblins in game 2 he was on the play, i looked at my hand (was ok) with 1 deathide and thought this hand looses to turn1 lackey turn 2 incinerator, and he had it and ran me over...

In some games i also miss something like ponder or top or sylvan......

About sideboarding : i also realized that i often borad out some or all tarmoygoyf, its strange but in some matchups he was the weakest slot.

[jarvisyu]

Yes the 4 BUG decks in the top 8 were interesting.
The community seems to give the delver plan more potential, which has now with deathrite, more lands and a jace sideobard it's own identity and is not just Canadian replacing some spells. To me the threats are too fragilfe for a tempo deck.

The 2 BUG control decks are also interesting:

Jarvis Wu with a confidant plan running daze to support it.

Brian with EE instead of dead supporting deahtrite and 5 cmc4 walkers in a 24 land build running 6 colorless lands and Goyfs in the board.

You already know my opinion about conficant as a primary gameplan http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23429-DTB-Team-America-%28Midrange-Control-Thread%29&p=687797&viewfull=1#post687797
...altough I am testing 2 in the board atm to bring it in against control & removal light decks and in this specific matchups he has been good.

Concerning Brians version:
More lands and more walkers instead of some creatures is also something I was thinking about, but not to the extend of cutting all the goyfs. Also fell in love with Baleful Strix. :) -> E. Explosives is not that necessary with Decay I feel.
6 colorless lands and 1 creeping tar pit seems very risky even in a loam build. If I have to deal with an early delver/goyf/lackey/mother I don't want to be forced to loam first to make sure I can cast my decay.

I wouldn't really qualify my deck as a 'Team America' deck, since that's mostly associated with Stifle / (4 Hymn to Tourach) and 4 Force of Will.

A better analogy is probably drawn to Modern 'Jund' with some sweet blue spells that you don't have access to.

In addition, I didn't really expect a lot of combo on Sunday, so I moved Force of Will to the board, since it's not very good in a lot of match-ups.

Also, I wasn't actually boarding 3 EE, that's a typo (they are actually Engineered Plague).

[catmint]

Sure Jarvis - not Team America at all.

The thing is that TCdecks http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/formato.php?format=Legacy collects decklists form all around the world and mtgthesource makes their "deck to beat" selection based on this information. When snapcaster was printed TCdecks started to mix up tempo and control strategies and is since then labeling any BUG deck (even with 0 creatures) as 'Team America'. On thesource there are 2 main BUG threads (tempo & midrange/control) and to setup the threads more like TCdecks mods labeled the threads this way.

More to the point: How do you feel about confident? Did you experience any of the problem I see with him?

Edit:

I remember a game two weeks ago against goblins in game 2 he was on the play, i looked at my hand (was ok) with 1 deathide and thought this hand looses to turn1 lackey turn 2 incinerator, and he had it and ran me over...

In some games i also miss something like ponder or top or sylvan......

About sideboarding : i also realized that i often borad out some or all tarmoygoyf, its strange but in some matchups he was the weakest slot.
I guess it was a scingscour that screwed you because deathrite does not die to incinerator with only lackey on board. Deathrite counts as a conditional "removal" for lackey, but there is also mother. :)

Boarding out goyf is totally reasonable imo. Altough he sometimes closes out g1 you still board him out, since against combo or UW, he is nowhere near as important as against aggressive strategies. Against combo his 3/4 body is nice but i rather have confidant/clique there.

[jarvisyu]

Sure Jarvis - not Team America at all.

The thing is that TCdecks http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/formato.php?format=Legacy collects decklists form all around the world and mtgthesource makes their "deck to beat" selection based on this information. When snapcaster was printed TCdecks started to mix up tempo and control strategies and is since then labeling any BUG deck (even with 0 creatures) as 'Team America'. On thesource there are 2 main BUG threads (tempo & midrange/control) and to setup the threads more like TCdecks mods labeled the threads this way.

More to the point: How do you feel about confident? Did you experience any of the problem I see with him?

I understand your point about lifeloss, but analogously: lifeloss in Modern Jund was an issue until Deathrite Shaman came about (exacerbated by the fact you play a bunch of shocklands). I don't really like Strix since it's a really low impact card besides cycling for 1 card and having deathtouch.

Also Dark Confidant attacks for 2! Attacking for 2 is 'tech'. :)

[catmint]

I understand your point about lifeloss, but analogously: lifeloss in Modern Jund was an issue until Deathrite Shaman came about (exacerbated by the fact you play a bunch of shocklands). I don't really like Strix since it's a really low impact card besides cycling for 1 card and having deathtouch.

Also Dark Confidant attacks for 2! Attacking for 2 is 'tech'. :)

Life loss is not my main concern altough you putting FoW in the side might not be a coincidence. :smile: check out my post in the link: it is not guaranteed value compared to strix, Stoneforge, Snapcaster causing tempo loss if killed.

[jarvisyu]

Life loss is not my main concern altough you putting FoW in the side might not be a coincidence. :smile: check out my post in the link: it is not guaranteed value compared to strix, Stoneforge, Snapcaster causing tempo loss if killed.

Well, bringing up Stoneforge Mystic in the context of BUG is kind of ???

Snapcaster Mage isn't really good in a field of Deathrite Shamans unless if you clear the Deathrite Shaman out first, and also Snapcaster Mage isn't good on turn 2 most of the time.

[catmint]

I brought up this other 2 drops because all of them are utility creatures providing card advantage. It is about the concept of getting value out of a card and not playing stoneforge in BUG.

[jarvisyu]

I brought up this other 2 drops because all of them are utility creatures providing card advantage. It is about the concept of getting value out of a card and not playing stoneforge in BUG.

Yeah, I get that. Besides Baleful Strix which is 'value', the alternatives aren't guaranteed either. You can also clear the way for Confidant by looking at their hand on turn 1 with a discard spell, seeing if the way is clear, and if it's not, casting another discard spell on turn 2 etc to try to clear the way for it.

[catmint]

Of course you are not guaranteed. (I used "" to signal that in my inital post concerning this topic). But not getting a 2 for 1 with strix or snapcaster is rare and confidant dying is very common. Cutting snapcaster because of deathrite is an overreaction in my opinon:
1) Snapcaster is still supreme against the rest of the field
2) also against deathrite it gets value very likely: They might use it for mana or whatever and since they want to activate deathrite eot whenever they get the chance you can cast snapcaster in response. Sure snapcaster is weaker against BG, but I would not side it out.

So your argument is discard to protect confidant. True, discards supports him, but why do you think was he never played in Esperblade? It is a very similar deck with better lifegain. To me discard alone does not make him great. There is Spell Pierce, brainstorm, SD.top, snapcaster, multiple removal spells or beeing forced to take something else over the removal.

my answer (see below) He is bad against RUG and snapcaster & strix are very good against RUG.
But I am open ... if you can outline why he is nuts as a primary gamplan I am willing to give it a shot again. :smile:


Confidant is always tempting but I've never played it in BUG since ages ago.

The problem I have with this specific 2 drop as opposed to other card advantage "2 drops" like baleful strix or snapcaster mage is that with tiago and strix we are "guaranteed" to get additional value once you cast them. If confidant is killed you lost tempo - if he survives for 2+ turns you got above average value. Confidant is therefore a bit more swingy.

Also confidant is just outright bad versus aggressive decks (RUG). Sure there will be the games where you have a high life total and he celebrate a big win vs. RUG, but usually you are hit hard and confidants life loss is a liability or he is removed immediately providing a tempo loss compared to something else you could have done for 2 mana.

Against miracles/UW, confidant is much better because it is a must kill - however again compared to tiago/strix you do not have a guaranteed 2 for 1.

Against Maverick/combo is where confidant is at his best imo, since it is most likely to live.

If I would include confidant I would put 2-3 in my 75. Problem is, cards I would want to cut are 3rd snapcaster mage, 3rd Jace, 4th FoW… all blue cards making the blue count an issue (19 blue cards in my current build). :frown:

[jarvisyu]

Of course you are not guaranteed. (I used "" to signal that in my inital post concerning this topic). But not getting a 2 for 1 with strix or snapcaster is rare and confidant dying is very common. Cutting snapcaster because of deathrite is an overreaction in my opinon:
1) Snapcaster is still supreme against the rest of the field
2) also against deathrite it gets value very likely: They might use it for mana or whatever and since they want to activate deathrite eot whenever they get the chance you can cast snapcaster in response. Sure snapcaster is weaker against BG, but I would not side it out.

So your argument is discard to protect confidant. True, discards supports him, but why do you think was he never played in Esperblade? It is a very similar deck with better lifegain. To me discard alone does not make him great. There is Spell Pierce, brainstorm, SD.top, snapcaster, multiple removal spells or beeing forced to take something else over the removal.

my answer (see below) He is bad against RUG and snapcaster & strix are very good against RUG.
But I am open ... if you can outline why he is nuts as a primary gamplan I am willing to give it a shot again. :smile:

If you expect a lot of RUG, I agree, Strix is better. I think overall that RUG is on the decline.

Second, I think this is also a huge function of playstyle. Confidant fits my playstyle a lot better (trade 1 for 1 a lot and reload, as well as synergizing very well with Liliana of the Veil). I can understand not wanting to play Confidant (and in fact the other people in that top 8 certainly did well without it too).

Some builds of Esper Stoneforge did play Confidant at some point (including myself), but that was pre-Lingering Souls.

[jeanbathez]

Edit:
I guess it was a scingscour that screwed you because deathrite does not die to incinerator with only lackey on board. Deathrite counts as a conditional "removal" for lackey, but there is also mother. :)

Boarding out goyf is totally reasonable imo. Altough he sometimes closes out g1 you still board him out, since against combo or UW, he is nowhere near as important as against aggressive strategies. Against combo his 3/4 body is nice but i rather have confidant/clique there.

You are right of course, it was Stingscourger (my fault, posting at work in a hurry isn't the best ;-) )


My 2 cent about Dark Confidant : i think it really depends on the field you are expecting and personal playstyle.

My first thoughts about Confi would be in a tempo list, and i tested him there and in some matchups he was beautiful as he is sometimes...


@jarvisyu : Interesting list without Force of Will - would be very interested in some insight on that and how it worked out (i think with making T8 fine:laugh:) , if possible ...;-)

[jarvisyu]

You are right of course, it was Stingscourger....


My 2 cent about Dark Confidant : i think it really depends on the field you are expecting and personal playstyle.

My first thoughts about Confi would be in a tempo list, and i tested him there and in some matchups he was beautiful as he is sometimes...

@jarvisyu : Interesting list without Force of Will - would be very interested in some insight on that, if possible ...;-)

Wasn't expecting a lot of combo, just a lot of grindy matchups.

my matchups were:
r1: UW miracles
r2: Tide
r3: Affinity (actually did board in Force here)
r4: UW miracles
r5: Ali Aintrazi's BUG
r6: RUG
r7: Shaheen with Esper Stoneforge
r8: Dredge
r9: Intentional Draw.

Of these, I only really want Force versus Tide and Affinity, and _maybe_ miracles (although i generally didn't board it in because I felt pretty good at grinding them out).

[catmint]

Makes sense... no religous call on confidant.
The meta in SCG (and MWS) tends to adapt much fast than in my locals. :smile:

Your pairings reflect what you expect. Confidant was only bad in 2 matchups so boarding it out instead of bringin it is to prefer.

I like my forces vs. Miracles and board them usually out against Stoneblade. Against Miracleblade I play 2 FoW :tongue:
... Against MIracles it is even more about some big spells - trading cards before a "jace war" matters less, since our board presence can be wiped out miraculously easy.

[phazonmutant]

I like my forces vs. Miracles and board them usually out against Stoneblade. Against Miracleblade I play 2 FoW :tongue:
... Against MIracles it is even more about some big spells - trading cards before a "jace war" matters less, since our board presence can be wiped out miraculously easy.

Agreed with this. Tested some more against Miracles, it feels pretty much like they're a Jace and Entreat combo deck. It really doesn't matter how many cards you throw away in the Jace fight, because if you get one to stick, it's almost impossible to lose. On the BUG side, Creeping Tar Pit and Deathrite Shaman sometimes allow us to just ignore Jace if you can't kill him and just go for the dome, but knowing when that's correct has been tough for me.

We can beat the card Stoneforge Mystic with discard, unlike SDT-reliant Miracles. (random thought: Abrupt Decaying Top in response to a fetch is pretty sweet.)

On the 2-drop war:
I haven't tested with Confidant because my local meta makes it impossible to not main Force of Will. He seems fine in the combo and control matchups, but I'm dubious about his utility in creature matchups.
I've been loving Strix - I even cut my third Goyf for a third Strix. The blue count is a bit low without Strix so he shores up the combo matchup, he's awesome against any creature deck except for literally the card Thalia, and is an evasive man for Jitte. Goyf just gets plowed and then boarded out in so many matchups, although he's still a necessary evil against creatures.

Confidant seems like Goyf in that he's good if he lives, but he gets plowed for no value.

Jarvis - how did you like Engineered Plague?

[jarvisyu]

Agreed with this. Tested some more against Miracles, it feels pretty much like they're a Jace and Entreat combo deck. It really doesn't matter how many cards you throw away in the Jace fight, because if you get one to stick, it's almost impossible to lose. On the BUG side, Creeping Tar Pit and Deathrite Shaman sometimes allow us to just ignore Jace if you can't kill him and just go for the dome, but knowing when that's correct has been tough for me.

We can beat the card Stoneforge Mystic with discard, unlike SDT-reliant Miracles. (random thought: Abrupt Decaying Top in response to a fetch is pretty sweet.)

On the 2-drop war:
I haven't tested with Confidant because my local meta makes it impossible to not main Force of Will. He seems fine in the combo and control matchups, but I'm dubious about his utility in creature matchups.
I've been loving Strix - I even cut my third Goyf for a third Strix. The blue count is a bit low without Strix so he shores up the combo matchup, he's awesome against any creature deck except for literally the card Thalia, and is an evasive man for Jitte. Goyf just gets plowed and then boarded out in so many matchups, although he's still a necessary evil against creatures.

Confidant seems like Goyf in that he's good if he lives, but he gets plowed for no value.

Jarvis - how did you like Engineered Plague?

It's pretty necessary for Goblins. If there were less goblins, I'd consider shaving it. Deed is pretty mediocre in this type of deck since you're so permanent heavy.

[Koby]

It's pretty necessary for Goblins. If there were less goblins, I'd consider shaving it. Deed is pretty mediocre in this type of deck since you're so permanent heavy.

EPlague is also quite good against the last of the Maverick players (Human), Elves, and halfway decent against Dredge (Illusion, Horror, Zombie). It's a card that European decklists have had for some time, and their metagame is more filled with Maverick and Elves than American metagames. Was this your reference in deciding to run Eplague?

[jarvisyu]

EPlague is also quite good against the last of the Maverick players (Human), Elves, and halfway decent against Dredge (Illusion, Horror, Zombie). It's a card that European decklists have had for some time, and their metagame is more filled with Maverick and Elves than American metagames. Was this your reference in deciding to run Eplague?


I'm going to be honest with you: I don't really look at the results of European tournaments very often, but I did talk to several other people in my area (Maryland / DC) about several metagame calls. Ari Lax convinced me that there would be a lot of other Deathrite Shaman decks, Goblins and Miracles and that GW was on the decline. Plague certainly is pretty reasonable versus them and Elves (obviously).

[TraxDaMax]

EPlague is also quite good against the last of the Maverick players (Human), Elves, and halfway decent against Dredge (Illusion, Horror, Zombie). It's a card that European decklists have had for some time, and their metagame is more filled with Maverick and Elves than American metagames. Was this your reference in deciding to run Eplague?

People barely play Maverick here.. dunno where you get that from. I was honestly convinced american meta was full of Mav.
We have a lot of Stoneblade, Bug and combo to deal with out here.


edit: Curious, what are the 2-4 Tarmogoyf for in side?

[jarvisyu]

People barely play Maverick here.. dunno where you get that from. I was honestly convinced american meta was full of Mav.
We have a lot of Stoneblade, Bug and combo to deal with out here.


edit: Curious, what are the 2-4 Tarmogoyf for in side?

I didn't have them sideboarded, but for Brian Braun Duin, I would guess that they come in versus Combo to present a faster clock.

[TraxDaMax]

I didn't have them sideboarded, but for Brian Braun Duin, I would guess that they come in versus Combo to present a faster clock.

Okay thanks, makes sense.

[Einherjer]

I didn't have them sideboarded, but for Brian Braun Duin, I would guess that they come in versus Combo to present a faster clock.

Plus you can sideboard them very any controldeck given, as long you made him think that you are a creatureless/poor deck. Once their removal is gone, Goyf shines by simply cutting them down in a few turns.


Greetings

[catmint]

Don't think UW will board out their removal - even if they don't see a ton of creatures G1.
Deathrite and Clique are significant threats they have to deal with. I also think that even the biggest "deed-lovers" "permanent haters" will start to play Deathrite and which would transform the BUG control archetype a bit away from deed.

Goyfs in the board are not the best clock vs. combo - usually a 3/4 for 1G where you have to tap out - playing creatures in your mainphase is so out anyway...

If i want a faster clock and somethign to bring in vs. control I would put Clique in the sideboard! Much much better in both matchups. Goyfs are key versus RUG, goblins or other random stuff like "brown decks", dredge, [UR] Burn,... where their defensive and offensive capabilities shine and a huge body is very much appreciated.

[godofallu]

Bob is great if you want to play a slow grindy deck. The problem is you can't play Force of Will or Tombstalker with him in. Plus he sucks against combo and super-aggro.

Strix is awesome against Tarmogoyf/KoTR decks which is probably half the aggro decks. Strix is terrible against combo and Miracles.

Snapcaster mage is great if you have the mana and the spell in yard. The problem becomes when you have 4 mana normally it would be better to just play a Jace or Garruk.

Tarmogoyf is good against everything assuming your deck has a variety of different things. With BUG we should have no problem with that.

It's hard to come up with the perfect maindeck. I have had some problems casting Clique considering Hymn/Liliana require two black and Clique requires 2 U. Wastland can really put a damper in the color base.

[catmint]

Bob is great if you want to play a slow grindy deck. The problem is you can't play Force of Will or Tombstalker with him in. Plus he sucks against combo and super-aggro.

Strix is awesome against Tarmogoyf/KoTR decks which is probably half the aggro decks. Strix is terrible against combo and Miracles.

Snapcaster mage is great if you have the mana and the spell in yard. The problem becomes when you have 4 mana normally it would be better to just play a Jace or Garruk.

Tarmogoyf is good against everything assuming your deck has a variety of different things. With BUG we should have no problem with that.

It's hard to come up with the perfect maindeck. I have had some problems casting Clique considering Hymn/Liliana require two black and Clique requires 2 U. Wastland can really put a damper in the color base.

Pretty much agree but
Confidant is super against combo, because he will live! Compared to goyf 1 damage less per turn, but drawing extra cards!

Goyf is "good" against everything: agree - he is never reall "bad", but there are still better options against most "swords" decks. Also the "we need clock" against combo is old thinking from times when Team America ran 4 Goyf / 4 Stalker. Next to a lavamancing manaelf, clique, a 2/1 flashing back discard and maybe a 2/1 drawing a bunch of cards I dont see the reason to run a 3/4 vanilla versus combo.

[ScatmanX]

I dont see the reason to run a 3/4 vanilla versus combo.
Changing the subject slightly, is there another option besides Goyf that is goos vs agroo, and still ok against combo, like a vanilla 3/4 for 2?
I'm asking because people might bring relics and RiPs against this deck now, since it makes Deathrite, Snapcaster, Loam, and Tarmogoyf from the side, a lot worse. Is there a non graveyard dependent threat?

[Caligola]

Hey guys, i am working on a BUG list right now for our monthly legacy tournament (it's a small tournament and the meta is kinda predictable)
and i could kinda need some help with it.

Here's the list:

3 Cabal Therapy
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Ponder

4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Ghastly Demise

2 Bayou
4 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Swamp
1 Island

1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Snapcaster Mage

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Darkblast
SB: 2 Null Rod
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 2 Engineered Plague

Hope this is the right thread, this list kinda plays more controllish than aggro imo

As i said before, the meta is kinda predictable, mostly because i know who is playing there and i'm in contact with most of the attenting players.

Here is how the meta should look next time:

1 Belcher
2 ANT
1 Snapcaster ANT (don't know that kind of ANT actually) (that guy could also play dredge(don't think he will) or RUG (which he doesn't find fun in that Meta)
1 Pox
2-3 Goblins (1 may play elves)
1 The Rock (a more aggro version i heard)
1 Affinity
x random decks (last time there where a jund player and a Uwr Delver deck, they didn't went well)

I hope you can see my problem there. On one side i want a good combo matchup (they all play very decent too), on the other side i don't want to get owned by aggro decks.

As i don't play wasteland in that version, i get the chance to snapcast into discard, counter and removal a lot more easily and i like that.

So what do you think about the mainboard? Should i keep it as it is and just play 4 EPlagues against goblins and elves? I dont really know anymore, kinda confusing.

Thanks in advance.

Before you ask, i don't have Jace TMS and i can't borrow some, because nobody got it :p

[phazonmutant]

Changing the subject slightly, is there another option besides Goyf that is goos vs agroo, and still ok against combo, like a vanilla 3/4 for 2?
I'm asking because people might bring relics and RiPs against this deck now, since it makes Deathrite, Snapcaster, Loam, and Tarmogoyf from the side, a lot worse. Is there a non graveyard dependent threat?

Tested against ANT between rounds today and was happy with Strix. He pitches to Force or replaces himself and puts them under a little pressure. Also, I've been happy with Clique in the main. Duress+clock against combo, Duress+removal against men.

Played in a local 30 person tournament tonight, top 8'd. List:
// Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
// Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Darkblast
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Life from the Loam
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Intuition
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
// Lands - 23
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacomb
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Creeping Tar Pit

// Sideboard
3 Engineered Plague
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Worm Harvest
2 Thoughtseize
1 Flusterstorm
1 Envelop
1 Counterspell


Some quick notes from the tournament:
Round 1 - Goblins
I've never played this matchup with a deck that actually, you know, interacts with the opponent, and it turns out it's way harder. Game 1 I was about to stabilize when I make a mistake and chose to play Strix over Decay for his Warren Instigator with him on empty, and he draws Incinerator into Matron into vomit all over. Game 2 I don't find EPlague, can't keep men off the table, etc.

Round 2 - UW Helm/RiP
The guy refused to play around counterspells (including Pierce) and got demolished. Particularly gratifying was popping Deed on 2 to blow up his Rest in Peace and Painter's Serveant (sweet board tech, yo) after he shuffled away his Top to resolve them. AD was an all-star, Goyf is bad, what else is new?

Round 3 - DARGON STOMPY
Game 1 he plays, 4 turns in a row, 4 copies of Magus of the Moon. He put me to 13, then I cast Goyf and he's short in the race by exactly 1 point. I had to Force a Pit-Dragon (nice Hornet Sting) and on the last possible turn (with me at 2), I draw Abrupt Decay, kill his men, kill him with Goyf. Game 2 I had Force and he shot blanks.

Round 4 - MUD
The guy is extremely tired and makes some mistakes, but I feel like this matchup is not good for him. I kill a Grim Monolith, which buys me time to Liliana him to death. She discarded 2 Wurmcoils and killed a Steel Hellkite! Game 2 I have all the answers and he has all the mana, kill him with Jace fatesealing.

Round 5 - ID
Played out a game 1 against the opponent playing sweet Jund Vengevine graveyard shenanigans. Very, very powerful and explosive, he wins easily.

Quarterfinal - Merfolk
Game 1 I forgot Abrupt Decay don't give a shit about Kira and proceed to lose a game where I had Volrath's Stronghold and Strix to hold off his board when he eventually draws Lord of Atlantis. Game 2 I lose to loose play, Stifle, and Wasteland and don't cast any spells.

Soooooo, thoughts:
- I was very, very happy to have Engineered Plague in the board, even though I never cast it. It would have been an excellent draw in multiple games.
- I like my men selection. Volrath's Stronghold is bonkers, Intuition is sweet, and allows me to justify one-ofs, but probably getting weaker given the increasing amount of grave-hate.
- Ghastly Demise helps against Lackey and Baneslayer (UW Miracles sides 1-2 if they're smart), 2 very scary creatures for this deck. But otherwise it's not good. I'm just very underwhelmed with non-AD removal.
- I think I want to cut a land and a something for 2 Ponders again.
- If Thresh is going to still be a thing, I want to play Drop of Honey.
- Maelstrom Pulse and Counterspell are versatile answers that also greatly help a surprisingly tricky Miracles matchup. This deck has a problem with Jace, and those help.

[Jiaozy]

Catmint - I haven't played the Goblins matchup, but I can see how it would be hard. [URL="http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9546"]So...what about the European metagame makes EPlague a necessity? Obviously it's good against Goblins, is that a bad enough matchup that we need 3? It seems mediocre against Fish, but ok against white creature decks (Maverick, D&T, maybe Deadguy). The question: is Deed bad enough against those decks (or with our own creatures) that EPlague is correct?
Deed is more versatile in that it's good against Miracles, Affinity, and manlands, but worse in that it's slower, vulnerable to Needle/Revoker/Stifle, and 2 colors.Bit of a late response but couldn't get my hands on a PC and posting from smartphone is awkward.
Since one of the 4 decks being mine, I can answer this! The 3 Dreadnought in one of the SB were Engineered Plagues since 5 minutes before the tourney start, but we swapped to Dreadnought because we expected a lot of ANT and TES and against those decks they're far better then Plague.

In the end, there were lots of Storm indeed, but they all fell to the various BUG variants and none made T8.

The reason because, in those setup, Deed <<< Plague is because you can cast a turn 2 Plague and win the game (Elves, Goblin, Maverick if you're not playing/siding out Delver) while a turn 2 Deed does basically nothing but slowing them down or look for an answer and, in the Goblin MU, Deed is just terrible because they can easily reload with Ringleader after (IF) you manage to wipe their board.
Plague also has some applications in the ANT/TES/Belcher MU because it shuts down Empty the Warrens and a second one can kill all their Xantid Swarms.

[catmint]

There is nothing like Tarmogoyf at 2 mana and I would not question it just because some decks bring in GY hate.

Goblins always had those relics, but now we can trade it against a decay if they are tapped out. Not a major concern for me, since they also play it instead of some creature and in the meantime you can plague/liliana or whatever.

Against UW I board out Goyf as I mentioned. Rest in Peace still hits a snapcaster & shaman, but when they play it you usually got already some value out of shaman and you can still trade it against a decay or a maelstrom pulse.

Best threat we have not GY dependent is Vendilion Clique, but there are also Planeswalkers, library, confidant,… so much we can do they have to worry about which makes their tech suboptimal against us.

I was thinking about 1 Thrun, the last Troll in the SB since it looks awesome against BUG decks, but I guess at 4 mana another Jace or Garruk is the overall better option, since it is also terminus proof.
________

Concerning your meta-deck Caligola. No Jace sucks, but you don’t face a lot of other Jace decks so that can be ok. 
I think you are very well prepared to kill combo and get an edge against the creature based decks. Maybe run 1-2 deed instead of pulse since it is the same against a bunch of 1/1 storm tokens, but much better against goblins & affinity. Not a big fan of darkblast against goblins/affinity/Pox/Junk – this card is best against Maverick. Also Thoughtseize is much better against Goblins maybe split 2/2/2 with kozilek & therapy? I would play:
Maindeck:
- 2 Ponder
- 1 Tarmogoyf
+1 Library
+1 Liliana
+1 Abrupt Decay

SB:
- 2 Pithing Needle
- 2 Maelstrom Pulse
- 2 Darkblast
- 1 Decay
+ 1 Plague
+ 1 Liliana
+ 2 Deed
+ 1 Loam
+ 2 Ghastly demise

______
On another topic:
How about playing 0 deed. Did not see a lot of discussion about it, but the thought came to me yesterday: Pulse kills bigger stuff faster, hits walkers and has the same effect on tokens. EE can be targeted not to hit our deathrite/Goyf/library or whatever. With our board presence, the walkers and the removal suite (including edict effects) I feel the deck is much less in the need of a sweeper and does not support it as well because playing more permanents.

[toasterprodigy]

How about playing 0 deed. Did not see a lot of discussion about it, but the thought came to me yesterday: Pulse kills bigger stuff faster, hits walkers and has the same effect on tokens. EE can be targeted not to hit our deathrite/Goyf/library or whatever. With our board presence, the walkers and the removal suite (including edict effects) I feel the deck is much less in the need of a sweeper and does not support it as well because playing more permanents.

I've been thinking of moving deed to the sideboard.
It is a great card in certain match ups but dead in others.
It is also clunky in match ups where you need to answer their threats by turn 3, not playing deed t3 and popping it on 4
I just don't know what to replace it with.

[warfordium]

i moved to 3 EEs and 2 Academy Ruins (for other reasons i'm keeping to myself). one deed in the board. its been pretty good…

[catmint]

What do you mean "replace deed with". I think you should not just take a deck and swap some cards... you have to design a deck with an overall good gameplan & good synergies. If you still run 0-3 creatures keep playing deed.

[csy]

deed is still REALLY good. I get that its falling out of favor, but what do you do against affinity? goblins? engineered plague is cool, but deed can do work. Not for or against it, but just dismissing it seems silly.

[somethingdotdotdot]

Deed is amazing versus affinity, but the problem is getting to turn 4 to blow it up. Oftentimes, you will also take a shaman and goyf with it. Versus goblins, deed is pretty mediocre--with all of their mana denial, you'll probably get to turn 4-5 before playing the deed and you really want to deed at 4-5 to clear the board. Plague is way better in this matchup and versus tribal in general.

As for extra removal--I think the best choices right now are disfigure and dismember. There are so many shamans/bobs/stalkers floating around that ghastly not hitting black creatures is an issue. Of the two, i think dismember is slightly better--it can kill pretty much everything except for maybe a late game goyf/kotr. The life cost can be offset by shamans (since you dont have exile effects, you can nom on them). Another potential card I was considering was ashes to ashes . It needs two creatures to be on the field and can it costs a fair bit of life, but its is card advantage.

[toasterprodigy]

Sorry, I didn't say what I meant to the best I could have said it.
I meant that I want to move it to the sideboard.
It's good in alot of matchups, but so dead in others.

[catmint]

That some fringe matchups like affinity or enchantress can be won on the back of deed is not reason enough to include it for me. That it can hit tokens or bigger artifacts/enchantments is also not enough because EE,maelstrom pulse does it as well (also hitting planeswalkers). For me it is only worth running if you build your game around it (deed + walker). Since we run a lot of good [defensive] creatures now which can protect walkers that is antisynergistic with deed. Also deed has often be killed to run 1-3 creatures. For that you have to invest usually 5-6 mana. Compare that to a 1 mana wrath. ;)
Since decay hits also non-creature permanents EE,Deed effects are much less needed. The potential card advantage gain of deed can also be migitaded my snapcaster-mage, baleful strix, library and the tempo advantage of shaman for a faster liliana/jace.

[Einherjer]

After the release I got excited, like many of us. As an old BUG-player I thought it'd be a good idea to play some Team America again. First I ported my RUG Tempo into BUG Tempo, which turned out to be horrible. Then I upped the land count and added Dark Confidants. This version wasn't that good aswell so I dropped BUG again, going to back to RUG/UWR. When Signorini/Hatfield crushed SCG Baltimore with their pretty oldschool TA I built their decks, tweaked a little and went onto testing. These version seemed to be a powerhouse...sometimes. It was able to break other decks in half...when you got your Delver flipped fast while having the right spells. Daze seemed suboptimal too, for me. So I decided to cut both, Delver and Daze. Following this logic I was moving away from Tempo into the Control direction, but I didn't wanna go to the hard-control-direction like BUGstill. So I kind of "stopped" in between, ending with an Midrangelist featuring Goyf and Jace. So that's where I am now:

Lands:
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
Creatures:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
Planeswalker:
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
Counter:
4 Force of Will
Discard:
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
Cantrips:
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library
Removal:
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Ghastly Demise

So the idea is to keep the option of closing the game on the back of an Shaman paired with a Tarmogoyf, but aswell to keep up some lategame power in form of Planeswalkers. I still play 8 Cantrips to maintain a high Blue Count for FoW.

Any criticism is welcome. The sideboard contains some more blue Counterspells, a few Discard spells, Engineered Plague and Deed.

Greetings

[jeanbathez]

@Einherjer : Interesting, you nearley had the same thoughts and designing process than i form Bug tempo like rug, then with confi, then a had the same conclusion like you and others : i don't wanna play Bug tempo or Bug control. and in my testing i landed at midrange like you, but i don't play Ponder atm and you don't play wastelands....how does it work out for you ?

[Einherjer]

About the land-base: I've been playing alot of different decks in the past, mostly control, and all of them had 3-color-manabases with special lands like Riptide Laboratoy, Karakas, Academy Ruins, Dust Bowl and the like. These manabases were strong if they worked, and used to fall apart under instant pressure. I got so fucked with dieng because the only land I had was a Ruins, and I couldnt cast me Pierce/Brainstorm whatever, that I decided to make the manabase do one single thing. Make mana. I've done that step at my Miracles too, though I havn't had enough balls to do this at Esper. In any way, yes the absence of Wastelands sucks sometimes, but as all your Lands actually do make some mana it's fine either way. Only 4 lands do not make blue, but still make G/B or G or B.

Care to share your list? What do you play instead of these Ponders?

Greetings

[jeanbathez]

This was my last, but after the tourney i thought of altering it in a lot of slots :

Old version :

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
3 Dark Confidant

Sideboard
1 Life from the Loam
3 Spell Pierce
1 Darkblast
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Krosan Grip
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Garruk Relentless

At first my meta has a lot of Combo, so some of my selections become more clear.
I got second with that list only loosing to Omnitell.
So i think my next take will be more controll, which means adding 1-3 lands, upping jace count to 3, and cutting the delver and dazes, so a lot of changes, more midrange...
Will post my new list later.....

[catmint]

Concerning your current list Einherjer: why not play real cards over ponder. If you are concerned of the blue count (rightfully so): Spell Pierce/ Spell Snare comes to mind. :)

Also I feel that the curve is a little bit too high. I think the deck has a lot in common with esperblade: midrangy/control grinding the opponent out. Sure we have deathrite and can play more expensive spells, but it feels too much fore me. Maybe its ok playing only colored lands...

A lot of testing will show ... or in my case I just wait until some lists are established and then netdeck. :)

My current version is similar to the one I recently posted (23 lands & more conservative curve), but I changed playing 2 ghastly demise (instead of edict) in the sidebaord along my 2 Disfigure Maindeck. This gives me 4 1cmc removal postboard, which is important not to fall behind in tempo. 3 Wastelands seems also too good. Can be such a beating with a deathrite to get ahead, but I do face some color problems regularly so not sure whats the right call.

[somethingdotdotdot]

After testing a couple more controlly and aggro lists, I settled on a midrange bug deck. This is my current list

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Counterspell
2 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
2 Life from the Loam

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless

2 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland

SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Force of Will
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Flusterstorm

Its 61 cards and runs 2x loams. I've found loam to be excellent in this deck since if you resolve it 1-2 times, you get insane card advantage out of it. It also has so much synergy with brainstorm and jace that I almost always want at least 1 a game. The lack of basics is counteracted by the deathrites and loams since I found that I couldn't really support running basics with all of the utility lands (which I need make loam really shine). The scrubland is just there to ee at 4, which isn't that uncommon versus miracles and it hasn't been too much of a hinderance so far. The counterspells may be better off as either pierce of snare, but part of me wanted a more versatile hard counter for the longer matchups. Any feedback is welcome.

[anwei]

Its 61 cards and runs 2x loams. I've found loam to be excellent in this deck since if you resolve it 1-2 times, you get insane card advantage out of it. It also has so much synergy with brainstorm and jace that I almost always want at least 1 a game.

Have you tried 1 Loam, 1 Intuition? This obviously helps out with hitting a second Loam and loading up your EE Combo / Wastelands / Manlands can be bonkers.
It's much slower if you draw the Intuition when you need loam to recover an attacked manabase, and compromises resiliency to Shaman/Ooze, but is quite powerful late game.
Perhaps 1 Intuition (and Worm Harvest/Raven's Crime?) in the board?

[somethingdotdotdot]

Have you tried 1 Loam, 1 Intuition? This obviously helps out with hitting a second Loam and loading up your EE Combo / Wastelands / Manlands can be bonkers.
It's much slower if you draw the Intuition when you need loam to recover an attacked manabase, and compromises resiliency to Shaman/Ooze, but is quite powerful late game.
Perhaps 1 Intuition (and Worm Harvest/Raven's Crime?) in the board?

I've tried intuition in previous builds (bugstill decks), not this one yet. I suppose I should test it out, but in previous builds, its been really slow (and its more vulnerable to gravehate than just drawing the loam). Having a loam in the opening hand really helps smooth everything out and bring me into the mid-late game without trouble.

Intuition would be pretty good in the board versus other control decks, but theres not that much space. On top of it, its hit pretty hard by grave hate, which will probably already be brought in against this deck (hoses goyf, shaman, loam, and snapcaster).

[Anusien]

If you have the mana to support GG, why are you running Garruk Relentless over any other form of Garruk?

[somethingdotdotdot]

The GGG from Garruk Primal Hunter is still a bit too much. I personally think that garruk relentless is better than wildspeaker since the token ability doesn't cost loyalty. After he flips, you can also sacrifice mishra's to his second ability to find other creatures.

[catmint]

At cmc4 the questions I ask myself (not sure about correct answes):

How many cmc4 cards (walkers) can we support?: 3 is proven, 4 might be possible (but maybe cutting something else at 3cmc for it?). What do you guys think should be tha avg cmc for a 23 land 4 deathrite build?


What is better: Garruk #1 or Jace #4?
I guess there will be situations where you feel good about having Jace & Garruk (does Garruk even matter then?) or where Garruks "kill" + create good ground blockers is better than Jace, but that sounds pretty narrow.

[jeanbathez]

I had 1 Garruk in my SB for some matchups, but after testing i would say i don't like him in this deck.
I would say 3 Jaces main, and if wanted needed 1 in SB, in most games i think 3 is enough, in the matchups where he is importent most of the time i prefer clique to prepare Jace next turn, and even if my opponent land him first i prefer clique more than legend rule my opponents, which is a play i don't like.

So if i think there will be a meta that needs Jaces, i would go 3 Jace and 2(3) clique main, and 1 jace and perhaps 1 clique in SB .
That reminds me on RUG Order when mental missteps were legal, i played 4 clique main and it was so good !!!

[somethingdotdotdot]

Well, from my experience, I haven't had any trouble with 4x 4cc cards. I do run 2x loams so I hit my land drops more than non-loam lists.

As for the fourth walker--I'm not sure whether garruk #1 or jace #4 is correct. In my experience, the problem with Jace is that he is often overwhelmed by 2x small creatures like a snapcaster and a stoneforge. If i don't have a blocker, I cant really cast jace for any value: I could fateseal and buy another draw step and jacestorm if I'm lucky. Jace is also worse in aggro matchups, he basically just cantrips and then dies a pretty gruesome death. Garruk is better versus aggro: he comes out, poops out a 2/2 wolf. If they attack, it trades and next turn I can fight another creature if garruk survives.

Also, another concern is that you can draw too many jaces--if you increase the count to 4, you have a 10.34% chance to see 3 or 4 of them in the first 20 cards (30.60% in 30 cards); if you have 3, you have a 3.33% chance to see 3 of them in the first 20 cards (11.06% in 30 cards). I'm not completely sure if this is good or bad to be honest, since sticking a jace is pretty good in a fair number of matchups.

[catmint]

I guess against a snapcaster or stoneforge you do appreciate Garruk, since you don't want to bounce them but still need to deal with this little "extra bodies" to enjoy your walker. Mayby I try 1 Garruk in the SB.

Cannot really get behind maindeck loam. In my testing I regularly ended up with 0 Land in my graveyard due to shaman and then Loam is a dead card. Even if you have 1-2 lands in the graveyard it is negative tempo just to set-up land drops. In my testing I found it more important to play removal/discard or establish a board presence. Loam is best as a mid-late game card if you are "guaranteed" to hit 3 lands. I can see an argument that Loam can dredge more stuff for a shaman, but that is a fringe case. I need my maindeck spells to do something as I play them. Btw.: opposing shamans also hate on loam a lot!

Concerning your counter/removal suite:

2 Counterspell vs. FoW #3-4: Counterspell is good vs. control and decent vs. combo, but against a wide meta, the free counterspell in a crucual turn is more important imo. I play 2 counterspell in the sideboard. In general I feel much better about my grindy deck if I have 3 Spell Pierce. People seem to happily cut that one. don't you feel exposed against Show & Tell and Jace, the mind sculptor without Pierce?

2 EE vs. 2 Disfigure: This is a tricky one. I guess EE is the better card, but can we afford to run it. It will hurt if you have to kill your own detahrite just to kill their mother. And it will also hurt if you have EE in hand vs. an attacking lackey.

I feel limited in my deck design space playing a non-linear "try to beat everything deck". Delver, Mother, Lackey, Show&Tell, Jace, Stoneforge,.... There cards define the format and you always have to consider them one way or another designing a deck.

[somethingdotdotdot]

Regarding loam: the deck is a midrange control deck that really wants its mana. Sure, it often happens that there are 0 lands in your graveyard on turn 2, but there are also times when there are 2 lands in your graveyard by turn 2. The main thing is that loam fills a gap in the curve. If I dont have a 2 drop and lands in my graveyard, I loam and set up my lands to reach the mid-late game. If i have something else to do, I do it. In the mid-game, loam becomes card advantage: Loam, brainstorm, put 2 lands back, dredge lands away. It also breaks liliana's symmetry. If they have an active deathrite then I usually just wait if I'm making my land drops or just go ahead and let them eat it in exchange for 2 lands.

Regarding counterspell: I'm not sure counterspell is the right call for this particular slot. I'm up in the air between the counterspells, spell snare and spell pierces. The main reason I'm running counterspell in the slot is because spell pierce is just so easy to play around. In control matchups, I've found a resolved jace isn't the end all since I can apply pressure on the board, but a resolved entreat often is. Most miracle players tend to entreat for all of their lands -2 to play around pierce, rendering it pretty much pointless. Versus aggro decks, theyre both about as useless; a late game counterspell may catch one of their later threats, but most of my mana/cards are spent trying to remove their threats and I rarely have enough mana to counter their things early in the game. As for combo, I feel a bit more exposed, but I think counterspell is only slightly worse vs show and tell since they have so much mana (sol lands, petals) that they can play around spell pierce.

Regarding EE: In my opinion, EE is better than disfigure. I say this because disfigure may be quicker, but ee is a hell of a lot more versatile. It's not terribly uncommon for me to kill an opposing jace with EE on 4; or to sweep everything at 3, recur it and sweep everything at 2. It is slower, but its only worse than disfigure vs goblins. I say this because versus maverick, you can hit a just summoned mom with disfigure, but a ee will always kill a mom (except with teeg on the board). The fact that you can aim it at certain things means that it will usually avoid your own things. In the cases where you do need to kill your own guys to ee, it was probably worth it. The most important reason for playing ee though is the ability to kill tokens main deck (as well as getting rid of a top when you have a jace).

[lavafrogg]

Does AJ Sachers list from Vegas fit in this thread?

[catmint]

Sure it does....

[phazonmutant]

Played in a local 20-man last night. Ended up losing in top 8 again. Similar list to last time (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23429-DTB-Team-America-%28Midrange-Control-Thread%29&p=689837&viewfull=1#post689837), changes:
Main -
-2 Tarmogoyf, -1 Ghastly Demise, -1 Jitte, -1 Island, +2 Ponder, +1 Engineered Explosives, +1 Maelstrom Pulse, +1 Academy Ruins
Side -
-1 Pernicious Deed, -1 Maelstrom Pulse, -1 Diabolic Edict, +2 Tarmogoyf, +1 Jitte

My only loss in the swiss was to Goblins, and lost again to him in top 8. That matchup is beyond awful. He went from empty to board to 18 to my face with EPlague on the field in one turn. Engineered Plague is much, much better than Deed would be, but I definitely want more 1-cmc removal and the fourth Plague. The best route to victory is either t1 Deathrite, t2 Eplague, then quickly resolve another, or kill their first two men into Eplague on turn 3.

I played against Junk and that was a tough matchup, very grindy. I was lucky to draw Deathrites early and often and they allowed me to burn him out g1 and 3 with them and Clique or Tar Pit. I'm really unimpressed with Wurm Harvest. There's just too much pressure on my graveyard. Intuition for a Volrath pile was fine, but just didn't really do a whole lot. I'm liking Stronghold less without Goyf in the main, and I just don't like big idiots on the ground right now. People seem to be prepared for it. The Ruins was ok, but mostly just to recur Strix. I used it to rebuy Strix and EE a couple times against MUD and that was fine, but again, very very durdly.

I'm trying out a list somewhat based on the new one Caleb posted (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-%C2%A0the-bloodening/). I really don't like Standstill, so trying out Vision instead, and I don't like multiple Wastelands in control decks, but still sticking with the Innocent Bloods, a Deed in the main, etc. I'll post back on how it tests.

[jarvisyu]

Article up:
http://www.gatheringmagic.com/jarvis-yu-legacy-deck-lists-bug-control-121312-team-asia/

Comments are appreciated.

[ScatmanX]

Article up:
http://www.gatheringmagic.com/jarvis-yu-legacy-deck-lists-bug-control-121312-team-asia/

Comments are appreciated.
Thanks for this.
I really liked your decklist, and was awesome seeing you play it.
Just wanted to ask why do you think cutting Daze is right on the new list, since you haven't commented about it. Does going up to 4 Jace has something to do with it?
thanks.

[jarvisyu]

Thanks for this.
I really liked your decklist, and was awesome seeing you play it.
Just wanted to ask why do you think cutting Daze is right on the new list, since you haven't commented about it. Does going up to 4 Jace has something to do with it?
thanks.

Daze doesn't really play well with the Jace aspect of the deck (as you rightly mentioned) and it loses value versus better players (hence why I sided it out a lot). You don't need to have a card like that to beat worse players as well.

I think in fact if you want to play any, you could play a miser's 1-of, so you can 'get' them then have them play around it for the rest of the match.

[RJM]

Article up:
http://www.gatheringmagic.com/jarvis-yu-legacy-deck-lists-bug-control-121312-team-asia/

Comments are appreciated.

Just 11 blue cards for when you bring in FoW seems to really be tempting fate.

[Kyle]

I think in fact if you want to play any, you could play a miser's 1-of, so you can 'get' them then have them play around it for the rest of the match.

This.

I don't play Daze anymore, but that's my favorite part about that card - it's unexpected outside of RUG, and my experience is that post board you can side them out and they will play around it the whole G2. Fun times.

[jamis]

Just went 3-0 at my local weekly event. Was playing this:

4 Jace TMS
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Worm Harvest

4 Brainstorm

3 FoW
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell

4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 E.E.
1 Darkblast

3 LftL
4 Mox Diamond

4 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacomb
2 Misty Rainforest

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Zuran Orb
1 FoW
2 Spell Pierce
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Deathmark

Matches were
Round 1: Solidarity (2-0)
Won Game 1 off the back of Liliana and Jace and a well-timed Counterspell. Boarded out most of my removal for 4 Leyline, 1 Fow, 2 Spell Pierce. Ended up starting with Leyline and a turn 1 Liliana. Topdecked Jace around turn 5 or 6, and won off those two combined again.

Round 2: UR Delver (2-1)
Game 1 he revealed Price of Progress of a Delver, so I kept FoW in hand to counter, but still couldn't keep up with the beats. Boarded in 4 Zuran Orb and the 2nd Pulse for most of my counterspells. Opened with a Zuran Orb, had enough removal to hold him off for a few turns, got a few lands off his Goblin Guide, then when he tried to Price of Progress, gained enough life from Orb to only take 2 damage from it. Got Worm Harvest going around turn 5 and overwhelmed him. Game 3, got another turn 1 Zuran Orb, followed by turn 3 Jace. Got loam going, and was completely stabalized against him at that point. Had E.E. and Ruins when I needed it. Finished him off with a Factory and Tar Pits playing Beatdown.

Round 3: 4 color Slivers (2-0)
Game 1, he plays Bayou, Mox Diamond, Muscle Sliver. Start with my own Diamond, and Wasteland. He misses his land drop, so I Abrupt Decay his Mox Diamond, then recur Wasteland with Loam to take out the next 2 lands he draws. E.E. and Ruins takes out his creatures, and Jace makes sure he doesn't draw anymore lands.
Game 2, I use Loam and Wasteland again to get rid of all his lands. He lays the beatdown plan in the meantime, knocking me to 1. I cast Worm Harvest to get enough Chump blockers plus an extra 2. Re cast it every turn with Loam and win in short order.

Went 2-1 last week, too with the same list -1 Zuran Orb +1 Damnation in the board. But the two wins were against two casual players that came to the tournament One win was a blue proliferate deck (R1 2-1), the other was some sort of BR Control (R3 2-0). Loss was UB Tempo (R2 1-2).

[somethingdotdotdot]

Just got 25th in the scg open in la. Basically ended up ripping off Brian Braun-Duin's list with a couple of minor tweaks. The deck felt really powerful (except in 1 game vs rug where he triple wastelanded me in 5 turns w/ 2 geese). This is what i ended up running:

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
1 Spell Pierce
2 Life from the Loam

4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory

SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 4 Force of Will

The surgicals didnt really come in, but vs any graveyard decks they wouldve been good. Ooze is a bit too slow for true gy hate and the shamans are alright, but I still wanted to have real gy hate vs reanimator/dredge (which i saw a fair bit at in the challenge the night before). I dodged goblins all day which was nice and ended up losing to shardless bug (very close at the end) and rug (g1: got blown out by 3 wastes and g2: mull to 5 found me 1 land/shaman to be blown out by bolt, followed by waste) and drew to another bug midrange deck.

One thing I wanted was a thrun in the board for the bug mirror matches and other grindy matchups.

[Einherjer]

Hey, I top8ed at a 38man tournament taking this list into battle:
Lands:
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
Creatures:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
Planeswalker:
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
Counter:
4 Force of Will
Discard:
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
Cantrips:
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library
Removal:
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Ghastly Demise
//Sideboard
1 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Engineered Plague
2 Pernicious Deed


I won vs 2-0 DDFT, 2-1 Esperblade, 2-1 UW Stoneblade with Mishras, 2-0 UW Stoneblade with a few Tops and Terminus, still no Miracleblade, ID, ID. Getting me to first or second place..not sure. Then I enter top8 and get crushed by Punishing NicFit due to his deck being good and me screwing G1 and flooding G2. Whatever.

Conlusions: I'd never play this deck like this again, I might try something with Dark Confidant in the next time. This list may be solid vs Deck to Beats, but tends to simply fold to randomshit like NicFit or the like, though alot of BUG-lists have that feature, I felt like this was pretty extreme at this very list. Though it was a blast to play.

Greetings

[jarvisyu]

Played in a 34 (35?) person Legacy event yesterday with a slightly different list:

//23
4 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
3 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Island

//16
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Shardless Agent

//21
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Ancestral Vision
4 Abrupt Decay

Sideboard
4 Force of Will
3 Engineered Plague
1 Darkblast
1 Life from the Loam
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Went 4-0-2 in Swiss

r1: Esper Stoneforge (2-1)
r2: TES (2-0)
r3: B/W Stoneforge-Bitterblossom (2-1)
r4: UW/r Geist Stoneforge (2-1)
r5-6 draw

r1 of t8: Monored Lodestone/Blood Moon (2-0)
r2 of t8: BUG Control with Standstills (1-2)

I continue to be somewhat unhappy with Hymn to Tourach, but I wanted to give it a try since cascading into it seems pretty sweet.

I like this hybridized build (between the SCG and my old build) a great deal, and now you legitimately have enough blue cards to make Force work more.

[catmint]

Nice Jarvis and Einjerher.

What I wonder is curve and manabase.

A short comparison of manabase and avg cmc manacost of my list and the last 2 (counting FoW as 0 mana & snapcaster as 3 mana spell)

We all run 4 deathrite and 9+ fetches.

I run 23 lands (3 wastelands, 20 normal colored lands) with a much lover curve: avg cmc: 1,68

Jarvis runs 23 lands (4 wastelands, 1 tar pit, 18 normal colored lands) with an avg cmc curve of: 1,95

Einherjer has a list of 22 colored lands and an avg cmc curve of: 1,74

.. the funny thing is even I feel more often clunky and screwed than the other way round... i.e.: in the same tournament Einherjer played, I had a draw in round 1 against canadian (which I btw conceded because I had limited time leading to a 3:2 drop loosing to dredge in Round 5) and each game was basically decided by me developing my mana properly or not (G3 against canadian was strongly in my favour)

Another thing where I would feel very exposed is the 1cmc removal. In our locals yesterday there were still 2+ Goblins and 2+ Maverick, so at least 10+% of the meta where not having 1cmc removal can just "loose" a game right there in turn 1 (not counting the other random mother decks like BW stoneblade or Death & Taxes)

Maybe I am just a pussy and my evaluation of a proper curve is based on selective memory, but to me it feels that mana, curve and removal is what this archetype has to figure out. Then you are free to choose from all the great spells in the 75 in order to prepare for an expected meta.

[Razorwynd]

There is surprisingly little discussion of baleful strix in this thread. I am just curious what everyone else thinks of the card? After losing to RUG in the top eight of a recent event I have been trying to get 2-3 copies somewhere in the 75, it is infinitely less clunky than snapcaster mage and certainly much better at clogging the board.

[johanessen]

I played UBG this last saturday and went 3-0 in local. The list contained:

4 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Vess
1 Worm Harvest

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
3 Spell Pierce

3 Life from the Loam
4 Mox Diamond

4 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp

SB
3 Damping Matrix
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Flusterstorm
2 Duress
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Spell Pierce

[phazonmutant]

I think this deck can't beat a competent goblins player. Not even great, just competent. I've played various builds of BUG control in 2 local tournaments, lost 3 of 3 matches to goblins with 3 Engineered Plagues in the board and a Darkblast. Last night tested a set against goblins pre- and post-board in a build with 3 1-mana removal spells and a Deed maindeck, another Deed and 4 Engineered Plague post. I won 2 of 8 games (one to him keeping a loose one, the other to EPlague into Jace into EPlague). My playtest partner and I went over the plays after each game and couldn't find any areas to improve my play.

Here's some takeaways (some may be obvious, but still important):
- Always use your removal immediately on a Lackey or Instigator. It doesn't matter if you have a Deathrite, Tarmogoyf, or Strix, it's far too easy for them to have Stingscourger, Incinerator, Tarfire, etc. Anecdote: I played a Baleful Strix instead of AD to his empty grip and lone Instigator, vial on 2. He put vial to 3, topdecked Incinerator, drew into Matron, vialed in Matron, Instigatored in Ringleader into Krenko. I was beyond fucked.
- Never keep a hand without the ability to make a play if you get Ported or Wasted twice, get Deathrite bounced, etc. Deathrite, 2 lands is sketchy, but fine if you have Plague, otherwise probably loose.
- EPlague is beatable. I got attacked for 18 on turn 5 with EPlague on the field in a tournament. Chieftain is scary, Krenko is scarier. Every non-budget Goblins build will board Grips.
- Deed and Goyf suck. Deed doesn't play nice with EPlague, Deathrite, etc. They can combo you out if you leave Goyf back to block and give them time or if you send in with him.

I'm trying a build with Shardless, Hymns, and Vision partly to keep up with them on cards and also clog up the ground.

Reporting back on anything based on Caleb's list - Innocent Blood is ok, it helps fix important blind spots, but we just play too many permanents for it to be good. The manlands are particularly good against Miracles and pretty good against men too. But after testing a control build intensively for weeks, I just don't think a controlling deck that can do well in an open meta. It struggles too much with random non-blue decks.

[Koby]

I think this deck can't beat a competent goblins player. Not even great, just competent. I've played various builds of BUG control in 2 local tournaments, lost 3 of 3 matches to goblins with 3 Engineered Plagues in the board and a Darkblast. Last night tested a set against goblins pre- and post-board in a build with 3 1-mana removal spells and a Deed maindeck, another Deed and 4 Engineered Plague post. I won 2 of 8 games (one to him keeping a loose one, the other to EPlague into Jace into EPlague). My playtest partner and I went over the plays after each game and couldn't find any areas to improve my play.


This is the same conclusion I came to during my run with the deck a month ago. All they need to resolve is Vial or play Caverns and all the spot removal in the world won't help you after that. EE helps to smooth out some of the removal, but that hasn't been adopted readily enough.

[learntolove6]

So I decided at my local event tonight to do something different. I have been playing Stoneblade for a long time now and I thought I might as well change it up for the last event of the year. So I borrowed some cards from my girlfriend and threw together this abomination:

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Jace, TMS
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Life from the Loam
1 Sensei's Diving Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Innocent Blood
3 Lingering Souls
3 FoW
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize

2 Mishra's Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland
1 Tundra
1 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
7 Fetchlands
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest


So this is essentially reminiscent of BUG Control about 6 months ago as opposed to a more recent list. The idea was that with 1 Tundra and Deathrite Shaman/Life from the Loam casting Lingering Souls would be very easy and it would give a huge boost to the control MU, as well as aggro. The goal was to kill them with Jace or manlands. I ended up going 2-1 playing against:
Maverick: 2-1
Jund ScapeWish: 2-1
Dredge: 1-2

Everything essentially played out as planned. Lingering Souls was insane and was never a problem to cast. Loaming back manlands or wasteland felt really good and then you just protect your Jace long enough to get there. As an aside, I do not own Tarmogoyfs (as I have never needed to), but I don't think this list wants them anyway. I am never the beatdown (although they would be worth testing). Things I noted after the day was done:
-The list definitely wanted 3 Lilianas. She was only bad versus Dredge.
-Pernicious Deed should definitely be in the sideboard.
-With Deathrite and Loam, 1 less land seems reasonable.
-1 Vendilion Clique would be a great inclusion in the MD

So clearly the list needs more testing, as I just threw it together today, but I think i'm gonna pick up the few cards I borrowed and seriously work on this list. I just wanted to post it to get some opinions on how the deck looks.

[jeanbathez]

Still brainstorming about the deck, i also realized that decks like goblins and lingering souls can be a problem for us, so i thought about handling tokens or playing also tokens...

What about bitterblossom, and perhaps sprites, could that work and included in our list, what do you think ?

[bartmanqc]

If you're going to splash white for lingering souls, you should replace the innocents blood with swords to plowshares

[godofallu]

There is surprisingly little discussion of baleful strix in this thread. I am just curious what everyone else thinks of the card? After losing to RUG in the top eight of a recent event I have been trying to get 2-3 copies somewhere in the 75, it is infinitely less clunky than snapcaster mage and certainly much better at clogging the board.

I disagree. The thing is Snapcaster can be a removal spell and a beater/blocker against aggro or midranged. Which is basically what strix tries to do.

But against combo Snapcaster can be a discard spell plus a beater. Which is what strix could never do.

So the thing is Snapcaster is good in every matchup. While strix is only good in some of the matchups. Plus sometimes you need a creature dead and they just use a removal spell on strix. That doesn't happen with Snapcaster + removal.

If you had an artifact theme of some kind I could see it. But without that it's a sideboard card at best.

[Razorwynd]

I disagree. The thing is Snapcaster can be a removal spell and a beater/blocker against aggro or midranged. Which is basically what strix tries to do.


Sure, except that snapcaster + abrupt decay isn't really an option until turn four (at the earliest) and still doesn't take care of creatures like nimble mongoose or tombstalker. The difference between UB and UGB1 against RUG is insane.

I am not advocating against snapcaster mage but rather for baleful strix. The two are certainly not mutually exclusive.

[catmint]

I posted some thoughts about the most important creatures and their strenghts here:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11605-DTB-Team-America-%28Aggro-Tempo-Thread%29&p=690089&highlight=baleful#post690089

For me Snapcaster Mage is pretty nailed as a 2-4 of due to its versatility as mentioned and overall much better than Strix. Strix is a flex slot for me (not competing with snapcaster) and a good choice if you expect a lot of RUG and a lesser extend maverick/goblins,.... Especially against RUG you get "unconditional value" once she resolves. Stalling for 1-2 turns and eating a bolt is all what you hope for when you don't want to get the bolt to the face or want your deathrite to live. She is also not an attractive submerge target. Against matchups where strix is bad you cylce for a 1/1 flying/deathtouch. Can think of worse. The important thing is: I would not go lower than 5 slots for spot removal but strix and liliana can fill-up the deck with board control while still beeing playable in other matchups while "pure" board control slots might make the deck worse against the field.

___
Concerning Goblins: Don't know why some of you feel the matchups is so bad. I won my last couple of games and had pretty good testing vs. decent opponents. As I wrote before it is all about getting ahead in tempo/board state/life total to finish them off in time. You should not seek for the big "ultra-lock you out" win. Here some general advice:
- 0 counters post-board
- You have to of course handle lackey - kill if possible and dont rely on a block.
- Kill vial before it goes to 3 as long as it matters (has hand cards or little mana) - if not: have to consider it in every move!
- Usually ignore piledriver (let him live)
- Value discard highly for matron & ringleader
- Kill haste-lords (on sight) or at least before they can get krenko or kiki shit going
- play tarmgoyf early and go to the offense
- Vendilion clique is good hand control & beating in the air
- Dark Confidant & Sylvan Library are often better than Jace but I usually keep 1 jace in.
- deed is bad, Plague good altough obviously not an auto win due to lords and piledrivers surviving (but i never play with it)

[learntolove6]

If you're going to splash white for lingering souls, you should replace the innocents blood with swords to plowshares

yeah i think that you're right. innocent blood wasn't the best yesterday when it could have been a plow

[catmint]

As I wrote I was thinking about the curve and the mana requirements and I was on a much more conservative route than others. For a while I tried to up my curve playing 7 3 drops (3 snapcaster, 2 clique, 2 liliana) and it worked out "ok". Needing UU and BB made playing basics and/or situations where shaman is killed a bit awkward though. What I did now was cutting the weakest card in my list so far: "Spell Pierce" which is pretty situational since tapping out is very common and I only played it to respect Jace and Show&Tell. And I added 2 Ponder which is obv. not only the best mana-fixer but my keeps and draws are much smoother now. I also cut 1 FoW to make space so the combo matchups is surely weaker. Since I usually win against combo and the sideboard has a lot more counterspells I feel ok though.

Here my current list:

23 lands

3 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest

Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Baleful Strix

Removal
2 Disfigure
3 Abrupt Decay

Discard & Counter
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Force of Will

Planeswalkers
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Cantrip
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

Sideboard
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Dark Confidant
1 Sylvan Library
2 Counterspell
3 Spell Pierce
1 Force of Will


Still a lot of flex spots obviously in SB and MD a SB hoping not to face dredge. :)
But I like the route of playing BUG goodstuff and only play countermagic where necessary (combo & jace decks,..). Force of Will ist still the best counter. Loosing a card is so often much less important than stopping/protection in a critical turn.

[Water_Wizard]

catmint - nice list - it looks well-balanced and considerably tested

which match-ups are you bringing in Dark Confidant? What are you boarding out?

Thank you!

[catmint]

Thank you - the list is optimized for the the tough creature matchups RUG (still DTB#1) Goblins & Maverick running a lot of board control and the 2 cliques are there to support the combo & control matchup.

Concerning confidant: he usually replaces Goyf
Against combo goyf usually only beats for 1 damage more than confidant, so with the extra draw confidant is way better in that matchup imo. In some combo matchups (TES, Belcher) jace is bad so confidant can replace jace instead. Also clock has never been my problem with clique and a lavamancing birds of paradise. :)

Versus Stoneblade Goyf is stronger than vs. Miracles, so I sometimes leave in 1 random Goyf but in general in these matchups I don't want to play a 2 drop creature which they can ignore for a while and handle with Batterskull, snapcaster-swords or Terminus. Also since UW tends to kill deathrite asap confidant is the best turn 2 play.

Versus Maverick Goyf is outright bad and confidant very good. Competent Maverick players will switch gears from slow grindy to beat your f*** face if they expect confidant, so there is never an autowin against this deck. :)

Against Goblins I side out Force of Will & Jace (red-blast & a million haste creatures), so with the lower curve confidant replaces jace nicely (altough I usually leave 1 random jace in again ...lol). Also I try to play this matchup in a way that I am the aggressor seeking for the tempo advantage (better board position) so the impact of liliana & confidant is as big as possible.

Vs. Bug control or something like POX I like Confidant over Force of Will.


The reason why I did not play confidant maindeck is:
1) I choose Baleful Strix & Clique over it since the value you get out of those one is more "assured".
2) I don't like to run confidant against an open field. Especially because I still expect a lot of Canadian, BUG tempo and to a lesser extend Burn, UR Burn where confidant is pretty bad.

But writing this I realize that I bring in confidant a lot, so I might try to play the 3 confidant maindeck with all the counterspells (including FoW) in the sideboard. However it is a bit odd if you have to pay mana for every single spell which makes me feel exposed in the critical turns :)

[Water_Wizard]

Thanks for the awesome analysis!

It seem that there is a trend away from maindeck countermagic as of late - I think it is only a matter of time before combo picks up again if this trend continues.

Personally, I'm relying upon discard and conditional countermagic with additional counters (including FOW) in the side. I'm debated cutting FOW all together.

[jarvisyu]

Played the side event on day 2 of GP Indy after playing sort of loose in the sealed event.

Went 4-1-1 then lost R1 of top 8 to a friend of mine playing RUG.


3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant catacombs
4 Underground Sea
3 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland

//25
4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Dismember
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Life from the Loam

//12
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
4 Deathrite Shaman

Sideboard
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Misdirection
4 Force of Will
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Engineered Plague
1 Darkblast

R1: Win vs metalworker-forgemaster (2-1)
R2: Win vs blue-affinity (masters/thoughtcast, sideboarded etched champion) (2-1) (I managed to win g1 and lost g2 to 3 etched champions in a row, if you're worried about etched champion a lot, you can plague Soldier twice to kill them)
R3: Win vs goblins (2-1) (Again, managed to win g1 somehow after he flooded out, g2 mulled to 5 and was still in it to draw an E. Plague to stabilize, g3, plagued him on t3, then got locked down under 3 ports for a while until i finally drew some lands to loam back other lands and cast a second plague).
R4: Loss to TES (Ari Lax) (0-2). Yeah ok, sb fow is a joke here :P
R5: Win over Esper Stoneforge (Matt Hoey) (2-1). Very interesting games. He therapied me in game 2 for Liliana when it should have been mostly clear that it is no longer in my deck because of Lingering Souls.
R6: Draw with Scott Barrentine (Merfolk). Scott Barrentine once beat me in the 10-0 backet of GP Denver (Lorwyn Block Constructed) as Merfolk.
R1 of T8: Loss to RUG (Andrew Shrout). This guy plays a lot of MTGO so he's pretty solid, although he's not that familiar with Legacy. Mostly he didn't know that you shouldn't play a lot of lands out as RUG (although it's less true in this matchup because of Wasteland). I lost 0-2, but I think the matchup is still more than fine. Sylvan Library did me in both times iirc.

[jarvisyu]

It was also a really good t8:

(scott barrentine, gerry, ari lax, matt hoey, myself, alex binek, andrew shrout (aka JohnnyHotSauce and MOCS winner), and some charbelcher player (don't remember his name))

[Water_Wizard]

I originally posted this in the Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread), but it probably belongs here. Your comment regarding the sb FOW made we want to port it over for further discussion




Here's the list Reid Duke used to win the SCG Invitational: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9803&iddeck=71582

He goes Delver-less and with a higher Planeswalker count. My only complaint about this list is that it cannot support FOW in the sideboard. Reid's list runs 11 U cards (1 Clique, 4 Brainstorm, 2 Ponder, 3 Jace, 1 Daze) with 3 FOW, 1 Jace, and 1 V. Clique in the board.

If I want FOW, I usually don't want Jace (at least not on the draw). Therefore, you are cutting your U count to 12 cards (3 FOW, 2 Clique, 4 Brainstorm, 2 Ponder, 1 Daze) - This is not enough to support FOW! I'm curious to hear Reid's take on this. Maybe Reid left his Jaces in to up the U count to 16, but do you really want to tap out on turn 3 or 4 to cast Jace vs. a Combo deck? My thought is that Reid didn't face much combo all day, so it wasn't an issue. I built this deck last night, realized Reid's error pretty quickly, and replaced these slots with Flusterstorms. I'm still not sold on Flusterstorm. Perhaps, Spell Pierce? There really aren't too many good answers unless we up the main-deck U count.





...

R4: Loss to TES (Ari Lax) (0-2). Yeah ok, sb fow is a joke here :P

...

I agree because the U count just isn't high enough to support FOW. You are running Shardless, which gives you a respectable U count. V. Clique would also help out.

With Reid's list, the only thing I can figure is that he leaves his Jace's in and taps out when he hits 4 mana to play them and +0/+2 (depending upon the situation) and just totally does not bluff the 1-mana counterspells (Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, etc.) Leaving Jace in is the only way his U count remains high enough to utilize FOW.

Your build runs max 21 U cards. Not sure Misdirection is worth it against Storm (maybe aimed at their discard? In any case, it only achieves parity and is useless vs. Duress and near useless vs. Cabal Therapy (unless they name Brainstorm or another shared card in the early game).)

I'm curious as to your thoughts on those FOW slots. Flusterstorm? Spell Pierce? Duress? Cabal Therapy? Hymn to Tourach? Mindbreak Trap? Inquisition of Kozilek? Daze might even be an option here...

I feel like MBT is best in non-U decks (surprise factor).

Maybe even a card like Null Rod goes a long way in this match-up? I doubt they bring in Abrupt Decay. If we go heavy discard, it lets us lean on Liliana (Liliana + holding counters in hand = no good :) .)

Happy Holidays!

EDIT: Thanks Julian (below)!

[Julian23]

If you wait for your opponent to name a card with Cabal Therapy before trying to Misdirect it, you're gonna be in for a surprise...:wink:

[jarvisyu]

Misdirection isn't for Cabal Therapy or Storm. It's for Shardless mirrors mostly.

The U count isn't the issue for FOW. My comment was more due to the fact that the lack of md FOW means g1 is an autoloss pretty much.

[jarvisyu]

If you wait for your opponent to name a card with Cabal Therapy before trying to Misdirect it, you're gonna be in for a surprise...:wink:

Sarpadian Empires, Vol. VII

[Jblaze4lif]

Nice Jarvis and Einjerher.

What I wonder is curve and manabase.

A short comparison of manabase and avg cmc manacost of my list and the last 2 (counting FoW as 0 mana & snapcaster as 3 mana spell)

We all run 4 deathrite and 9+ fetches.

I run 23 lands (3 wastelands, 20 normal colored lands) with a much lover curve: avg cmc: 1,68

Jarvis runs 23 lands (4 wastelands, 1 tar pit, 18 normal colored lands) with an avg cmc curve of: 1,95

Einherjer has a list of 22 colored lands and an avg cmc curve of: 1,74

.. the funny thing is even I feel more often clunky and screwed than the other way round... i.e.: in the same tournament Einherjer played, I had a draw in round 1 against canadian (which I btw conceded because I had limited time leading to a 3:2 drop loosing to dredge in Round 5) and each game was basically decided by me developing my mana properly or not (G3 against canadian was strongly in my favour)

Another thing where I would feel very exposed is the 1cmc removal. In our locals yesterday there were still 2+ Goblins and 2+ Maverick, so at least 10+% of the meta where not having 1cmc removal can just "loose" a game right there in turn 1 (not counting the other random mother decks like BW stoneblade or Death & Taxes)

Maybe I am just a pussy and my evaluation of a proper curve is based on selective memory, but to me it feels that mana, curve and removal is what this archetype has to figure out. Then you are free to choose from all the great spells in the 75 in order to prepare for an expected meta.

I agree completely on this. If we look at say the Bant Stoneblade lists they seem to run 22 Lands 3 Being wasteland but they only have Jace for Double blue while their white cards only require a single white. We have liliana which needs double black and abrupt decay which is black and green and Shamans

I think we need 23 Land total 20 colored lands 10 being fetchlands and no more than 3 colorless and 1 basic of each

This is my manabase and i am running full blue suit with FOW and spell pierce no Hymns

4 Deathrite, 3 Snapcaster, 4 Tarmogoyf, 2 Vendilion Clique, 3 Jace, 2 Liliana

4 Misty
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Forest

I also am worried about the lack of 1 cc removal. I like dismember or disfigure what are everyones opinions?

[catmint]

I tested disfigure a lot and was very happy. Does exactly what you need in the early game and is rarely dead in the late game. There are of course some awkward situations with ooze, Goyf & knight but that's rare a fair trade for not paying 4 life which is very bad against many decks and with snapcasters.. ouch.

I play 2 disfigure, 3 abrupt decay maindeck and 2 ghastly demise, 1 decay sideboard.

[phazonmutant]

Catmint - has Tombstalker been a problem out of BUG Delver? Your only answers seem to be counterspells, Jace, and Liliana, and it seems like you would board most of the first two out.

[catmint]

Tombstalker is the most potent threat, but the main problem is hymn followed up by stalker. I only board out 1 jace since they dont have burn and dont attack the manbase with stifle.

Other conditional answers you missed: deathrite's cleaning the GY (delay). Putting on bottom with Vendilion Clique. Clique block + Disfigure, Baleful Strix (my favourite answer) and maelstrom pulse. Since they are very light on removal and usually fire it asap on deathrites, baleful strix also refilling the hand (vs. hmyn) becomes one of the best cards against BUG tempo.

So far I like playing BUG tempo much more than RUG tempo. I fear Stifle more than Hymn. Developing mana and topdecking is better than a full hand without enough resources (time, mana, life,...).

[phazonmutant]

Tombstalker is the most potent threat, but the main problem is hymn followed up by stalker. I only board out 1 jace since they dont have burn and dont attack the manbase with stifle.

Other conditional answers you missed: deathrite's cleaning the GY (delay). Putting on bottom with Vendilion Clique. Clique block + Disfigure, Baleful Strix (my favourite answer) and maelstrom pulse. Since they are very light on removal and usually fire it asap on deathrites, baleful strix also refilling the hand (vs. hmyn) becomes one of the best cards against BUG tempo.

So far I like playing BUG tempo much more than RUG tempo. I fear Stifle more than Hymn. Developing mana and topdecking is better than a full hand without enough resources (time, mana, life,...).

Ah, I did forget about Strix and Pulse. Baleful Strix is the tits.

I found Thresh pretty easy, but didn't test extensively. Having basics was essential. Both seem relatively favorable.

[catmint]

Canadian is never easy. Some hands you feel very strong if you can get basics, resolve a strix and have a couple of removal spells and goyfs. But some other times you have to walk into their Stifle, wasteland (daze) and if you then miss your land drop suddenly a simple submerge on a deathrite feels like a stab in your heart.

[Adryan]

I've built this list and i need your feedback:



BUG midrange

23 Lands

4 wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Island

//12
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

//5
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Spells 20
1 maelstrom pulse
2 hymn to tourach
1 Life from the loam
4 Brainstorm
3 Thoughtseize
3 spell Pierce
2 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay

Sideboard
2 Vendillion clique
4 force of will
1 flusterstorm
1 Life from the Loam
2 extractions
1 Garruk
2 deed
2 disfigure


After Sideboarding i have a blue count of ~ 20 to support FoW.
I would really like to play FoW in the maindeck, but i couldn't figure out how to do this.
I'm not quite sure about the 2 Hymn to Tourach in the MD and the deeds in the SB. Should i play Garruk MD instead and 1 Maelstrom pulse?

[catmint]

I've built something similar with confidant maindeck and FoW in the sideboard.

My comments:
Confidant is bad if you fall behind in tempo and/or life total, so you have to make sure you don't. He is also a bad defensive card. Therefore I would put more early game action & defensive in the deck cutting slow stuff. Also I don't like only relying on decay & liliana for removal since you need to beat lackey, mother & thalia. I play a 3/2 split of decay & disfigure main + 2 Ghalsty demise, 1 Decay in the sideboard.

My suggested changes to your list:

-1 Goyf (We are not tempo and often don't want to cast multiples early but rather control the game and then let him take over)
-1 Confidant
-1 Pulse (slow -> SB versus tokens & Plainswalkers)
-1 Loam (slow grindy -> SB if you like it for the meta)
-1 Abrupt Decay
-2 Hymn to tourach

+2 Disfigure
+2 Baleful Strix (best card against BUG tempo - good against RUG)
+2 Snapcaster Mage (Good defensive, grindy qualities - also flashback discard versus combo)
+1 Discard Spell (I prefer 2/2 split of thoughtseize and inquisition - especially with life loss from)


For Sideboard: This is really meta dependent. I don't like the deed plan in any matchup anymore due to deathrite beeing so strong and deed is antisynergistic with deathrite. Counterspell is a card that I come to love in every control matchup (I play 2 in the sideboard) where it is mostly about Jace, card is also decent versus combo or some ramp decks. I would also play Jace +4 over Garruk, but in the "Jace-matchups" finding the jace is usually not the problem. It is more about making him matter.

[StoneColdEffy]

What are your thoughts on Eric Frolenich and Conley Woods' take on the deck? They cut Goyfs for a white splash of Lingering Souls and StP. Conley also played 2 Stoneforge Mystic. For reference, Conley talks about the deck and provides the 2 lists here; http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=10958