[Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

[toasterprodigy]

In my current BUG control list I am really starting to dislike Life from the Loam.
While I love the card. It just seems so clunky and annoying to play.
W/ Jace + loam mass Ca, that just seems like a win-more position when you could just be +2-ing.
thoughts...?

[somethingdotdotdot]

I think a 1-of at least is really good in the maindeck. It just makes your land drops so much easier and synergizes with so many cards in the deck:
Brainstorm
liliana of the veil
Jtms
Goyf/Dr Shaman (dredge to feed the yard)

The perpetual land drops is actually relevant (for my deck anyways) since I'm playing the long control game and the more lands I have, the more I can deed for.

Sidenote: I don't understand why people aren't playing deed in this deck atm. I know it seems like dis-synergy with shaman/goyf and I was skeptical to begin with, but its been amazing for me. I often find myself nuking 1 of my shamans with it, but I honestly dont mind since it takes out their shamans+2 drops with it. Oftentimes what I find is that I run out a goyf to stall the board and they overextend to get around the goyf. Then I pull the deed trigger and everythings honky-dory. It's also amazing vs any decks that cascades (jund, bugless) since their card advantage tends to be on the board than in hand.

Edit: The main problems I have with the deck are UR delver (or anything super fast red decks running burn) and lingering souls (I bring in eplague and its fine, but a bit clunky; was wondering if there were any better solutions to this. I ran 3 deeds/2ee/1 tabernacle vs tokens in 1 tourny but it wasn't as good as eplague). But any fast red deck tends to be a beating for me. Perhaps strix's would help here.

[Atog]

Edit: The main problems I have with the deck are UR delver (or anything super fast red decks running burn) and lingering souls (I bring in eplague and its fine, but a bit clunky; was wondering if there were any better solutions to this. I ran 3 deeds/2ee/1 tabernacle vs tokens in 1 tourny but it wasn't as good as eplague). But any fast red deck tends to be a beating for me. Perhaps strix's would help here.

For Spirits you could try Dread of Night (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=14580). And for UR or/and burn run more BEBs/Hydroblasts. I don't know is jitte good enought here, since we don't run that many creatures..

[Adryan]

What do you think about Bitterblossom in a BUG control list?

[wcm8]

What do you think about Bitterblossom in a BUG control list?

At that point, why not just drop green and play Esper for Lingering Souls?

I played Shardless BUG this past weekend and was disappointed with the deck, going 2-3. Sometimes you draw fire and feel unbeatable; other times you get disrupted just a little and everything falls apart. I also feel that in this style of control deck, Tarmogoyf is extremely underwhelming and I'd rather be playing some sort of utility creature, perhaps even Scavenging Ooze.

In general, I think BUG as a control strategy is not where you want to be, especially now that the format has shifted again with the rise of Jund. I think Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay are both incredible cards, but they tend to work much better in either Team America (BUG tempo) or Jund (an arguably much stronger and consistent midrange deck than BUG). I felt a lot like a Deedstill player, trading back and forth but ultimately just losing to the one threat that slipped through. Deedstill is a great example of a deck that's full of powerful cards but somehow the deck just ends up sucking because everything has to go right for them to matter. Modern BUG control doesn't seem that different in this regard.

[NidStyles]

Here's what I have been working on for the Jund Matchups:

Lands:
4 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest

2 Maze of Ith, considering making this 3.


Instants:
4 Brainstorms
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Counterspell
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Force of Will

Sorceries:
2 Thoughtseize
3 Ponder
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Artifacts:
2 Mox Diamond
1 Sensei's Diving Top

Enchantments:
3 Pernicious Deed

Creatures:
3 Tombstalkers

Planewalkers:
3 Jace, The Mindsculptor


Sideboard:
3 Chill, RDW and Burn can just wreck you otherwise.
3 Extirpate
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Relic of Progenitous
2 Thoughtseize
1 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thrun, the last Troll


Against most combo it's an easy win. Jund is still quite a bit of a fight, but Maze gives the deck a lot of time though. Considering upping the count to be honest. Maze is that good against Jund. I had been trying Damnation to fight Jund, but had issues with getting blown out by some other decks trying to fight through the hate with 3 dead cards. Damnation does help though.

Honestly, this color combination has a lot of issues to work out if it want's to keep up with BBE. I think as far as B/G/* decks go Jund is better. Junk is better than Jund, but Junk usually loses to BUG something fierce. I built this after I started getting uber-crushed playing CAB Jace still on the MODO Meta. I wasn't having trouble with the Tempo decks it was the Deathrite Shaman decks that were getting me.

I have tried EE, and various other ways of beat DRS. I even tried Disfigure, but for a straight up control deck having such a situational answer is not ideal in the least. It might work for you Tempo Players, but honestly I can not play Tempo anymore. I have played Tempo decks since Team America first appeared on the scene. I'm tired of them, and do not want to play them anymore. I want a straight up control deck, and just haven't worked up the motivation to build an Esper-Blade/Miracle deck. Mainly because of the cost of the lands. Otherwise I would rock Miracle-Blade, that deck is better positioned than this one right now.


To add are there any online players here anymore? I know the Daily's are running again, finally, just haven't caught up with the current crop that is running in them yet. My Clan pretty much disappeared back when the dailies stopped.

[sdematt]

Here's what I have been working on for the Jund Matchups:

Lands:
4 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest

2 Maze of Ith, considering making this 3.


Instants:
4 Brainstorms
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Counterspell
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Force of Will

Sorceries:
2 Thoughtseize
3 Ponder
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Artifacts:
2 Mox Diamond
1 Sensei's Diving Top

Enchantments:
3 Pernicious Deed

Creatures:
3 Tombstalkers

Planewalkers:
3 Jace, The Mindsculptor


Sideboard:
3 Chill, RDW and Burn can just wreck you otherwise.
3 Extirpate
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Relic of Progenitous
2 Thoughtseize
1 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thrun, the last Troll


Against most combo it's an easy win. Jund is still quite a bit of a fight, but Maze gives the deck a lot of time though. Considering upping the count to be honest. Maze is that good against Jund. I had been trying Damnation to fight Jund, but had issues with getting blown out by some other decks trying to fight through the hate with 3 dead cards. Damnation does help though.

Honestly, this color combination has a lot of issues to work out if it want's to keep up with BBE. I think as far as B/G/* decks go Jund is better. Junk is better than Jund, but Junk usually loses to BUG something fierce.

Which BUG am I losing to, specifically? Control or Aggro?

-Matt

[NidStyles]

Which BUG am I losing to, specifically? Control or Aggro?

-Matt

I have Junk too, it loses to Deeds. Essentially control.

[Adryan]

At that point, why not just drop green and play Esper for Lingering Souls?

I played Shardless BUG this past weekend and was disappointed with the deck, going 2-3. Sometimes you draw fire and feel unbeatable; other times you get disrupted just a little and everything falls apart. I also feel that in this style of control deck, Tarmogoyf is extremely underwhelming and I'd rather be playing some sort of utility creature, perhaps even Scavenging Ooze.

In general, I think BUG as a control strategy is not where you want to be, especially now that the format has shifted again with the rise of Jund. I think Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay are both incredible cards, but they tend to work much better in either Team America (BUG tempo) or Jund (an arguably much stronger and consistent midrange deck than BUG). I felt a lot like a Deedstill player, trading back and forth but ultimately just losing to the one threat that slipped through. Deedstill is a great example of a deck that's full of powerful cards but somehow the deck just ends up sucking because everything has to go right for them to matter. Modern BUG control doesn't seem that different in this regard.

Jund is more inconsistent than BUG because it doesn't play blue. I'm really tired of "Jund is the best BGx Midrange Deck- no other Midrange Deck can beat it". This is not Modern, where Jund is the best Midrange deck.

Jund in Legacy is just hype. Before Jund everyone was on the BUG hype. BUG Midrange/ especially BUG Control can have a very positive Matchup against Jund, you just have to build it properly. Maybe add some Control Stuff, like Damnation and Deed or play 4 Baleful Strix or Life from the Loam with 5 Manlands.

Just look at this hypothetical Sideboard:

2 Damnation
2 Deeds
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Disfigure
1 Diabolic Edict

It says: " Dear Jund player, i think you are dead"



I tested Bitterblossom MD in my Shardless Agent Build against Esperstoneblade. This card is very good in this Matchup.
I'm going to test it in my other BUG Midrange Deck next weekend in my SB.

[NidStyles]

Jund is more inconsistent than BUG because it doesn't play blue. I'm really tired of "Jund is the best BGx Midrange Deck- no other Midrange Deck can beat it". This is not Modern, where Jund is the best Midrange deck.

Jund in Legacy is just hype. Before Jund everyone was on the BUG hype. BUG Midrange/ especially BUG Control can have a very positive Matchup against Jund, you just have to build it properly. Maybe add some Control Stuff, like Damnation and Deed or play 4 Baleful Strix or Life from the Loam with 5 Manlands.

Just look at this hypothetical Sideboard:

2 Damnation
2 Deeds
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Disfigure
1 Diabolic Edict

It says: " Dear Jund player, i think you are dead"



I tested Bitterblossom MD in my Shardless Agent Build against Esperstoneblade. This card is very good in this Matchup.
I'm going to test it in my other BUG Midrange Deck next weekend in my SB.


The full control decks have issues with Jund, because of Cascade, and their tool box of hand disruption. You can say that it's hype, but as a Modern and Legacy Player, Jund isn't hype in Modern. It has the best game one average in the format, and it has the best matchup against a wider range of decks in that format.

In Legacy, Jund is good.



BTW, a deck doesn't instantly become more consistent with the addition of Blue. Consistency is measured in numerous ways, and just adding Blue doesn't make something more consistent. Dredge is pretty consistent, and it's not because it has Blue. Deadguy is pretty consistent, and it doesn't have Blue.

[Watanabe]

Hi everybody,
This is the list I'm currently playing. It is very control oriented and I'm pretty happy with my choices :

// FORMAT : Legacy
1 [UNH] Forest
1 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Swamp
2 [R] Bayou
2 [WWK] Creeping Tar Pit
2 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [R] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Underground Sea
1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
3 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
4 [] Deathrite Shaman
1 [ISD] Garruk Relentless/Garruk, the Veil-Cursed
4 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 [5E] Sylvan Library
1 [TE] Diabolic Edict
2 [7E] Counterspell
3 [ZEN] Disfigure
3 [AL] Force of Will
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [] Abrupt Decay
4 [CMD] Brainstorm
1 [PLC] Damnation
2 [M11] Preordain
SB: 2 [ALA] Infest
SB: 2 [5E] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [OD] Divert
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [M13] Duress
SB: 1 [PLC] Damnation
SB: 2 [M11] Jace Beleren

In the French metagame, we have a lot of Shardless BUG decks so Divert is very nice :cool:
I play 3 Disfigure with which I'm very confidant to manage all of my opponent's Shamane and is very easy to flashback with SCM.

Jace Beleren is a metagame call for a tournament with a lot of UW Miracles and Infest can be easily replaced by Dread of Night or some gravehates.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Can you explain your preference for Preordain over Ponder? Are the 3 Spell Pierces good enough in a slow deck with no Wasteland? Have you considered Spell Snare for this metagame? Is it sometimes difficult to cast Counterspell early with the basics and Bayous in the deck? Do you ever feel like 7 4-drops is too much? Thanks.

[Adryan]

From a discussion in the Jund thread:

Maverick, Punishing Maverick and Junk are bad matchups for Jund. I don't know why it's so extraordinary that BUG Control/Midrange can have a positive matchup against Jund. Play sweepers, play manlands with life from the loam. Just generate Card Advantage and reach the lategame. Hymn to tourach and BBE CA engine is worse than:

1. Sweepers
2. Manlands with life from the loam (making also CA) and make sure that Liliana trades 1:1 after a sacrifice.
3. Snapcaster Mage, flashback Abrupt decay while blocking Bloodbraid Elf.

BUT Jund with Punishing Fire is completely different. It's a tough matchup and a lot harder to beat than normal Jund.

I would also count UR Delver as a fair deck. PoP and stuff just destroy Jund.

Against Punishing Fire Jund i would play something like that. I have not tested it yet.

Creatures

3Snapcaster Mage
1Vendilion Clique

Removal

3Abrupt decay
2Innocent Blood
2Pernicious Deed
1 Disfigure
2 Damnation
2 Dismember

Counter
2 Counterspell

"Draw"
4Brainstorm
3Standstill
2Life from the Loam

Discard
3Thoughtseize

Walkerz

2Liliana of the Veil
4Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands
2Tropical Island
4Underground Sea
3Mishra's Factory
4Verdant Catacombs
4Misty Rainforest
1Polluted Delta
2Bayou
3Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Like already mentioned it's a more control version from the build i run now. On paper it looks like it has a good Jund Matchup. I haven't done any testing with this list, because i'm still testing BUG Midrange (Control Splash to improve Creature and Jund matchups) and Tempo, but when i have more time i will test it. Needless to say that the Sideboard will have a clock against Combo (Tarmogoyf or Clique) and Counterspells and more Discard.

[Arsenal]

For Shardless BUG, why Baleful Strix over Dark Confidant? The upside to Dark Confidant seems greater than the upside to Baleful Strix.

[Adryan]

For Shardless BUG, why Baleful Strix over Dark Confidant? The upside to Dark Confidant seems greater than the upside to Baleful Strix.

Dark Confidant is bad in the current Meta. Baleful Strix is awesome.

[Barbed Blightning]

Dark Confidant is bad in the current Meta. Baleful Strix is awesome.

In what way is Bob ever bad?

[sdematt]

This was my question as well. I think in a control deck though, you don't want Bob because you're losing a ton of life. If that's your reasoning, then cool. Otherwise, I'd like to know what you're thinking.

-Matt

[Patrunkenphat7]

I just won a Legacy SCG IQ with this list on Sunday:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
1 Preordain
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Disfigure
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
SB
2 Engineered Plague
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Disfigure
1 Deathmark
1 Divert
4 Thoughtseize
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Krosan Grip

Luckily, I did not play against Jund. I don't really know what to do about Punishing Jund, because the matchup is simply terrible. We can tweak our lists to be good against normal Jund, but I don't think there's much we can do to tilt that matchup even close to being even. Snapcaster + removal is one of the best things you can do, but it's only just as good as their BBE's.

That being said, this deck is very good if you play tight and know how to play against a variety of decks.

[.:saturno:.]

regards for the result.
i think that daze and snapcaster do not get along, you can swap it with 1 more pierce and snare.
i'm playing clique on snapcaster, but it depends against which deck you want to set. clique is great vs combo, control and stoneforge deck, but snapcaster is great vs aggro and jund.
i think clique is necessary in SB.
Engineered Plague is bad, in my test I have never been useful.

[Arsenal]

Dark Confidant is bad in the current Meta. Baleful Strix is awesome.

I'm not quite sure why you think he's "bad" in the meta. He sees play in a wide range of decks (Jund, The Rock, UGx decks, Deadguy Ale, etc) whereas Baleful Strix only sees play in Shardless Bug and maybe some janky Tezzeret deck. If Baleful Strix is so "awesome" and Dark Confidant is so "bad", why haven't people been playing Baleful Strix?

[Adryan]

I'm not quite sure why you think he's "bad" in the meta. He sees play in a wide range of decks (Jund, The Rock, UGx decks, Deadguy Ale, etc) whereas Baleful Strix only sees play in Shardless Bug and maybe some janky Tezzeret deck. If Baleful Strix is so "awesome" and Dark Confidant is so "bad", why haven't people been playing Baleful Strix?

Yeah he's fine for those decks, but not for BUG, because we have better cards in the current meta to play: Snapcaster Mage, Baleful Strix, Shardless and Ancestral Vision. Jund, the biggest enemy of BUG plays many Removalspells, so Dark Confidant will almost never stick for more than one turn.

So in the current meta it is better to play something else and not Dark Confidant. Ancestral Vision or Shardless Agent or Baleful Strix are all better against Jund then Dark Confidant, and guess what's going to happen when you combine them.

This conclusion came from serious testing and before you make a negative comment you should do the same.

[Patrunkenphat7]

regards for the result.
i think that daze and snapcaster do not get along, you can swap it with 1 more pierce and snare.
i'm playing clique on snapcaster, but it depends against which deck you want to set. clique is great vs combo, control and stoneforge deck, but snapcaster is great vs aggro and jund.
i think clique is necessary in SB.
Engineered Plague is bad, in my test I have never been useful.

Engineered Plague is the only reason I beat Goblins and is the best tool against Esper decks running 3 Lingering Souls other than Dread of Night which is too linear right now. I played against both Souls Esper and Goblins at this tournament and would not have won the tournament without it. It also does work against Elves and Empty the Warrens decks, so it certainly has its uses.

Daze is very good at protecting your Bob, and Snappy has enough targets as it is; you don't need every instant or sorcery to be insane with Snapcaster Mage flashback. Daze is also good against other Jace decks, and I won a game in the semi's after protecting my own Jace with a Daze. Spell Snare and Spell Pierce aren't really cards you want to flood on, especially when you have access to a 2nd with Snapcaster if you really need it. I wouldn't play more than 2 of those cards.

I think Snapcaster is also very good against combo and control when you board into discard. I always bring in the 3rd when I bring in my set of Thoughtseizes. I agree that Clique is good, and there would be nothing wrong with finding room for him.

The most prominent disagreements I have with other BUG players are probably over Bob. Bob with Force protection and turn 3 Jace are the 2 best reasons to play BUG. Bob is arguably one of the best cards against Jund - you just have to know how to protect him. If your Bob is always dying, reassess how you are using your countermagic and discard. If you can get a Bob to stick against Jund, you have a pretty good shot at getting there. I can see why Adryan doesn't like Bob if he is just playing Shardless BUG which is essentially a blue Jund deck that has a lot more trouble protecting its permanents than regular BUG midrange.

[Kich867]

Engineered Plague is the only reason I beat Goblins and is the best tool against Esper decks running 3 Lingering Souls other than Dread of Night which is too linear right now. I played against both Souls Esper and Goblins at this tournament and would not have won the tournament without it. It also does work against Elves and Empty the Warrens decks, so it certainly has its uses.

Daze is very good at protecting your Bob, and Snappy has enough targets as it is; you don't need every instant or sorcery to be insane with Snapcaster Mage flashback. Daze is also good against other Jace decks, and I won a game in the semi's after protecting my own Jace with a Daze. Spell Snare and Spell Pierce aren't really cards you want to flood on, especially when you have access to a 2nd with Snapcaster if you really need it. I wouldn't play more than 2 of those cards.

I think Snapcaster is also very good against combo and control when you board into discard. I always bring in the 3rd when I bring in my set of Thoughtseizes. I agree that Clique is good, and there would be nothing wrong with finding room for him.

The most prominent disagreements I have with other BUG players are probably over Bob. Bob with Force protection and turn 3 Jace are the 2 best reasons to play BUG. Bob is arguably one of the best cards against Jund - you just have to know how to protect him. If your Bob is always dying, reassess how you are using your countermagic and discard. If you can get a Bob to stick against Jund, you have a pretty good shot at getting there. I can see why Adryan doesn't like Bob if he is just playing Shardless BUG which is essentially a blue Jund deck that has a lot more trouble protecting its permanents than regular BUG midrange.

Daze is poor with Snapcaster because you tend to use Daze early, which limits your land drops and delays Snapcaster's ability to be a relevant creature. It has nothing to do with being a target while it's in the graveyard, you would almost never do this.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Daze is poor with Snapcaster because you tend to use Daze early, which limits your land drops and delays Snapcaster's ability to be a relevant creature. It has nothing to do with being a target while it's in the graveyard, you would almost never do this.

If that is the case, a much better argument would be that you shouldn't play Jace and Daze in the same deck. I wouldn't play a playset of Daze in a Jace deck, but some number of Daze and 2-3 Jace has stood the test of time in BUG midrange. Only recently have BUG decks not run any Dazes which leads people to make arguments like this if they have never played the card. I understand the logic, but additional free countermagic is very good in this type of deck.

I am only basing this argument off the fact that I won an Invitational Qualifier with my list, and Daze seemed to play well in my deck.

[Arsenal]

Yeah he's fine for those decks, but not for BUG, because we have better cards in the current meta to play: Snapcaster Mage, Baleful Strix, Shardless and Ancestral Vision. Jund, the biggest enemy of BUG plays many Removalspells, so Dark Confidant will almost never stick for more than one turn.

So in the current meta it is better to play something else and not Dark Confidant. Ancestral Vision or Shardless Agent or Baleful Strix are all better against Jund then Dark Confidant, and guess what's going to happen when you combine them.

This conclusion came from serious testing and before you make a negative comment you should do the same.

I never said anything about replacing Snapcaster, Shardless Agent, or Ancestral Vision with Bob. Not sure where you're getting that from, but I never said that. Also, the "it dies to removal" argument is a poor one as many creatures will die to removal, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be played.

Shardless BUG, game 1 anyway, shares more in common with Jund and even Junk than it does with other BUG iterations like Bug Delver/Team America aggro. As such, I'm still unclear as to why Baleful Strix automatically gets the nod over Bob. Shardless BUG's average cmc doesn't seem to be that much higher than Jund or Junk's, and all three decks have similar game plans game 1.

EDIT: I take that back.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I agree with what Arsenal said about Shardless BUG being more similar to Jund than most other BUG decks. This is a difficult thread to manage - just look at the lists above. Compare Watanabe's list with mine and Shardless BUG. The only thing these 3 decks share is that they are BUG-colored and are not aggro decks. Maybe it would be nice if Shardless BUG had its own thread?? I'm sure this has been discussed before.

[Lans89]

I agree with what Arsenal said about Shardless BUG being more similar to Jund than most other BUG decks. This is a difficult thread to manage - just look at the lists above. Compare Watanabe's list with mine and Shardless BUG. The only thing these 3 decks share is that they are BUG-colored and are not aggro decks. Maybe it would be nice if Shardless BUG had its own thread?? I'm sure this has been discussed before.

Shardless BUG has its own thread.. And the people that follow it would like to see more posts!

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24698-Deck-BUG-quot-Shardless-quot-Control

[Patrunkenphat7]

Shardless BUG has its own thread.. And the people that follow it would like to see more posts!

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24698-Deck-BUG-quot-Shardless-quot-Control

Wow, awesome! Seems like it could be in established by now. Shardless BUG people, go there!

[aznepyon7]

In what way is Bob ever bad?

It's not that Bob is bad, it's just whether or not he's the best card for the spot. I can definitely see him in BUG but it's going to be meta dependent. I wouldn't want him around where there is too much Jund or Burn going around.

[Amazing Larry]

I've been having fun playing BUG Delver for the last few months. I've decided to try and run a control-ish list. This is what I've come up with, and I've not been disappointed so far. I originally tried out Shardless BUG, but was not too impressed. A lot of the previous builds cut Force from their main-deck, but with combo everywhere, it's not such a great plan right now. Nothing feels better than a turn 3 Jace with FoW protection. One of the big problems was finding the right mix of removal. I love Snapcaster Mage in this build, but Decay + Snappy is expensive and mana intensive. I tried different mixes of Disfigure, Dismember, and Decay, but settled on 3 Decay and 2 Disfigure. Dismember just hurts too much in a control deck (especially to snap back), it's really better in a tempo build.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure
3 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
3 Jace the Mind Sculptor

Land (22)
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit

SB
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Spell Snare
3 Duress
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Damnation

[Razorwynd]

2 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
3 Jace the Mind Sculptor



I think 20 blue cards is about as low as I would go with force main... Also the average cc is a little too high to support the damage from dark confidant and thoughtzeize.

[Amazing Larry]

I think 20 blue cards is about as low as I would go with force main... Also the average cc is a little too high to support the damage from dark confidant and thoughtzeize.

Eh, Esper-blade typically only runs 18ish blue cards, I have not had a problem having enough blue with 17 Maindeck. As for Thoughtseize, yeah you might want to run a split of 2 Inquisition/2 Thoughtseize if you run into a lot of aggro (especially Jund or other red aggro). 4 Thoughtseizes is a meta call for me, lots of combo where Inquisition just does not cut it.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Eh, Esper-blade typically only runs 18ish blue cards, I have not had a problem having enough blue with 17 Maindeck. As for Thoughtseize, yeah you might want to run a split of 2 Inquisition/2 Thoughtseize if you run into a lot of aggro (especially Jund or other red aggro). 4 Thoughtseizes is a meta call for me, lots of combo where Inquisition just does not cut it.

In an opening 7 card hand, 1.98 of those cards will be blue on average. That number is 2.57 with 22 blue cards. I don't know if that means much, but alls I knows is... You start to get pretty greedy under 20 cards. 20 blue cards gives you an average of 2 blue cards in a 6 card hand which seems fine.

[The Treefolk Master]

I think 20 blue cards is about as low as I would go with force main... Also the average cc is a little too high to support the damage from dark confidant and thoughtzeize.

I agree with both statements. You could also solve the problem by replacing Bob with Baleful Strix. It cantrips, so its never dead, doubles as creature removal and pitches to FoW.

[Razorwynd]

I agree with both statements. You could also solve the problem by replacing Bob with Baleful Strix. It cantrips, so its never dead, doubles as creature removal and pitches to FoW.

Seems perfectly reasonable to me... Maybe even -4 bob +1 snapcaster +3 strix

[Patrunkenphat7]

I think those changes would make his deck significantly worse against everything but fast aggro. I actually like his list if he could work in more blue cards. I don't think you can run 4 Thoughtseize in a Force/Bob deck - I think that can go down to 2 Inquisition which is a better card against the field since it is actually very good against RUG Delver and still reasonable in most matchups. There is no problem running Force and Jace in a Bob deck; Force is actually extremely synergistic with Bob. Just up the blue count and throw some of the Thoughtseizes in the SB. I would also only run 1 Disfigure max maindeck, so that shores up 3 blue spell slots that you can give to cards like Daze, Spell Snare, Ponder/Preordain or a single Baleful Strix.

I am pretty much describing my list which is also on the previous page.

[Amazing Larry]

Yeah, if the blue count is really an issue, certainly a Ponder or two could be added in place of something. However cutting Bob for Strix is no good. Strix simply does not deal enough damage, and there's really no room for Equipment to make Strix a threat. Strix is also not a must-answer card, while Bob most definitely is. If you're cutting Bob from this build, might as well replace him with a few more removals and maybe a Vendilion Clique mainboard. I did try a build sans Bob, I think it had 2 Ponders, a Clique, and another Disfigure or Dismember in those slots. That brings the blue count to 20 MD, but at the cost of Bob. Like I've said, I honestly have had no issue running around 18 blue cards in either Esper or this build, but I can see why one might want to run a list that's a little less tight for extra FoW fodder.

[Adryan]

After playing a lot with various BUG decks i present to you my final list for the upcoming Legacy Grand Prix in Strassbourg:

Creatures (3)

3 Snapcaster Mage

Planeswakerz (4)

4 Jace TMS

Sorceries (10)

3 Innocent Blood
4 Thoughtseize
2 Life from the Loam
1 Damnation

Instants (

4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell

Enchantments (6)

4 Standstill
2 Pernicous Deed

Lands (24)

4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Mishras Factory
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:

3 Tarmogoyf
2 Perish
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Dread of Night
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Surgical Extraction

This version has the best matchup of all current BUG Builds against Tempo Decks, Jund and Esperblade.
The first thing you will notice and the biggest difference in comparison with other BUG Control Decks is the absence of Deathrite Shaman.
Against Jund and Tempo Decks Deathrite Shaman will be the only real target they have, so in many games he will bring no value.

One of the major weakness many BUG Builds have is Liliana. When they stick Liliana and make you sacrifice a Creature you will have to trade 2:1. But for a large event you also have to play FoW which is also bad against Jund. And after so many bad tradings with opposing threaths BBE will seal their victory.

Another problem is that they will have much more removal for your creatures than you have. So with a traditional BUG list with Creatures you are going to lose the attrition war. Everyone who played enough against Jund will agree with that.

My solution:

1. no Creatures
2. play cheap removal
3. mass removal
4. Win with Life from the loam & Jace
5. play Standstill, to improve Force of Will and make CA because when played correctly your opponent has to break Standstill. Always.

This list doesn't care about Liliana 90 % of the time. The Jund player will discard more important stuff than you, especially with Life from the Loam.
Another thing you will notice is the absence of Liliana. Liliana is a very good card in BUG Control, especially with Life from the Loam.
The reasons why i don't play her:

1. Against tempo decks you need a cheap removal, casting Liliana on turn 4 or 5 to avoid Daze or Spell Pierce or even Turn 3 is not the situation you want to be against tempo. So i prefer Innocent Blood.
2. Deathrite Shaman. He's never going to stick more than one turn. Discard him or remove him. Liliana can't do that in a reasonable time frame.
3. Abrupt Decay. A small reason. I really like that my list has no targets.

That's it for now. I could write much more but i don't know how many people are interested. I'm not completely happy with the SB. I will play enough on mtgo and offline the following weeks to improve it. Maybe i'll add a deed or Bitterblossom. Bitterblossom really likes fighting against Lingering Souls :D

Thank you very much for reading and i appreciate your feedback

[BrazenSix]

In a meta infested with RUG and UR Delver, Sneak and Show and a bit of Miracles, would you guys recommend sculpting a BUG Control list? or going for the more tempo BUG Delver list?

[Amazing Larry]

In a meta infested with RUG and UR Delver, Sneak and Show and a bit of Miracles, would you guys recommend sculpting a BUG Control list? or going for the more tempo BUG Delver list?

Probably BUG Delver to be honest. I love the fast clock provided by Delver against combo decks, and BUG has a good game against RUG typically. UR Delver is tough as they can just burn through you quickly, but UR is an even worse match-up for BUG control.

[BrazenSix]

Probably BUG Delver to be honest. I love the fast clock provided by Delver against combo decks, and BUG has a good game against RUG typically. UR Delver is tough as they can just burn through you quickly, but UR is an even worse match-up for BUG control.

Ok, thanks. That was what I was leaning a bit more towards anyways. Plus the aggro/tempo is a bit more of my play style.

[Viridia]

After playing a lot with various BUG decks i present to you my final list for the upcoming Legacy Grand Prix in Strassbourg:

Creatures (3)

3 Snapcaster Mage

Planeswakerz (4)

4 Jace TMS

Sorceries (10)

3 Innocent Blood
4 Thoughtseize
2 Life from the Loam
1 Damnation

Instants (

4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell

Enchantments (6)

4 Standstill
2 Pernicous Deed

Lands (24)

4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Mishras Factory
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:

3 Tarmogoyf
2 Perish
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Dread of Night
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Surgical Extraction

This version has the best matchup of all current BUG Builds against Tempo Decks, Jund and Esperblade.
The first thing you will notice and the biggest difference in comparison with other BUG Control Decks is the absence of Deathrite Shaman.
Against Jund and Tempo Decks Deathrite Shaman will be the only real target they have, so in many games he will bring no value.

One of the major weakness many BUG Builds have is Liliana. When they stick Liliana and make you sacrifice a Creature you will have to trade 2:1. But for a large event you also have to play FoW which is also bad against Jund. And after so many bad tradings with opposing threaths BBE will seal their victory.

Another problem is that they will have much more removal for your creatures than you have. So with a traditional BUG list with Creatures you are going to lose the attrition war. Everyone who played enough against Jund will agree with that.

My solution:

1. no Creatures
2. play cheap removal
3. mass removal
4. Win with Life from the loam & Jace
5. play Standstill, to improve Force of Will and make CA because when played correctly your opponent has to break Standstill. Always.

This list doesn't care about Liliana 90 % of the time. The Jund player will discard more important stuff than you, especially with Life from the Loam.
Another thing you will notice is the absence of Liliana. Liliana is a very good card in BUG Control, especially with Life from the Loam.
The reasons why i don't play her:

1. Against tempo decks you need a cheap removal, casting Liliana on turn 4 or 5 to avoid Daze or Spell Pierce or even Turn 3 is not the situation you want to be against tempo. So i prefer Innocent Blood.
2. Deathrite Shaman. He's never going to stick more than one turn. Discard him or remove him. Liliana can't do that in a reasonable time frame.
3. Abrupt Decay. A small reason. I really like that my list has no targets.

That's it for now. I could write much more but i don't know how many people are interested. I'm not completely happy with the SB. I will play enough on mtgo and offline the following weeks to improve it. Maybe i'll add a deed or Bitterblossom. Bitterblossom really likes fighting against Lingering Souls :D

Thank you very much for reading and i appreciate your feedback

You might want to move this list into the UBG landstill thread, considering that that's just a landstill list rather then TA Control :-)

[Will_L]

Won't have the opportunity to test in any meaningful way for an upcoming tournament this 30th. If anyone with experience with this deck wouldn't mind giving my some input on the list and my questions I would really appreciate it.

I have not been happy with the pure control version of this deck with 0-4 creatures, Deeds and durdley stuff. I wanted to try and make a BUG midrange deck that has the ability to close out games better then Esper, while having just as permission and utility. One of my concerns about this style of BUG control deck is that I don't know if what I have here is just worse than Jund (since they are both midrange decks with control elements)

BUG Midrange

x1 Ghastly Demise
x1 Life from the Loam
x1 Counterspell
x2 Spell Pierce
x3 Thoughtseize
x4 Abrupt Decay
x4 Force of Will
x4 Brainstorm

x2 Liliana of the Veil
x3 Jace the Mindsculptor

x4 Tarmogoyf
x4 Deathrite Shaman
x3 Baleful Strix
x2 Snapcaster Mage

x3 Island/Swamp/Forest
x4 Wasteland
x8 Fetchlands
x4 Sea
x2 Bayou
x1 Tropical Island


- I know this has been discussed before, but pertaining specifically to BUG midrange, which do you think is better MD Hymn or FoW?

- Is x4 Decay x1 Demise early removal to be able to stabilize with Lili / Strixs against creature decks?

- I really want to play Clique MD. It's a great clock and is very strong against combo. Does anybody have any suggestions on how to fit x2 Cliques in?

- Is Ponder really needed that badly in this kind of deck? I see it in most Control/Midrange lists... but it seems kind of meh and the list feels so tight already.

[Adryan]

You might want to move this list into the UBG landstill thread, considering that that's just a landstill list rather then TA Control :-)

For me it's a TA Control list that plays Standstill ;-) Jund is the best midrange deck, and all the other BUG lists (except maybe Shardless Agent) fail to beat Jund with conistency. My list is capable of beating Jund with conistency, and Standstill is one of the reasons.



Won't have the opportunity to test in any meaningful way for an upcoming tournament this 30th. If anyone with experience with this deck wouldn't mind giving my some input on the list and my questions I would really appreciate it.

I have not been happy with the pure control version of this deck with 0-4 creatures, Deeds and durdley stuff. I wanted to try and make a BUG midrange deck that has the ability to close out games better then Esper, while having just as permission and utility. One of my concerns about this style of BUG control deck is that I don't know if what I have here is just worse than Jund (since they are both midrange decks with control elements)



- I know this has been discussed before, but pertaining specifically to BUG midrange, which do you think is better MD Hymn or FoW?

- Is x4 Decay x1 Demise early removal to be able to stabilize with Lili / Strixs against creature decks?

- I really want to play Clique MD. It's a great clock and is very strong against combo. Does anybody have any suggestions on how to fit x2 Cliques in?

- Is Ponder really needed that badly in this kind of deck? I see it in most Control/Midrange lists... but it seems kind of meh and the list feels so tight already.

Jund is a bad matchup for your deck. No problem when you don't expect many Jund decks.

Life from the Loam should be played in your SB. Against Deathrite Shaman decks it will do almosth nothing because you don't have enough removal to kill their Deathrite Shaman. You will need your removal for Tarmogoyfs/Baleful Strix/Dark Confidant/ Liliana etc.

So cut Life and 1 Force of Will for 2 MD Clique and move these two cards to the SB.

If you want to be better against Combo you should play FoW, if you want to be better against fair decks you should play Hymn to Tourach.

Ponder is personal preference. If you want to improve consistency you can play it. I mean you play Controlcards and Midrangecards, Ponder helps you dig for these cards when you need them.

Your deck will have problems against T1 Lackey/Mother of Runes on the draw. If you care about that, play Dismember, Engineered Plague or sweepers in your SB.

[sdematt]

I ran this list (I know, it has Standstill, but I'm just saying) last Thursday to a 1st place finish:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Cabal Pit

4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage

4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
4 Standstill

4 Brainstorm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the Loam
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Disfigure
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

--BOARD--

2 Flusterstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Engineered Plague
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Golgari Charm
2 Chill
1 Perish
2 Vendilion Clique

fun to play and seemed very strong. BUG Delver was a back and forth matchup, but by playing around Daze and just having infinite creature removal you're on good footing.

-Matt

[Reagens]

@Matt

I have a few questions on your list.
Why no Liliana? Is there no room for her or does she have to little synergy with the rest of the deck?

If you were to play this deck in a more combo oriented vs control metagame what slots would you cut for what? I'm thinking for example the third deed could be considered overkill.

[Megadeus]

Eh, Esper-blade typically only runs 18ish blue cards, I have not had a problem having enough blue with 17 Maindeck. As for Thoughtseize, yeah you might want to run a split of 2 Inquisition/2 Thoughtseize if you run into a lot of aggro (especially Jund or other red aggro). 4 Thoughtseizes is a meta call for me, lots of combo where Inquisition just does not cut it.

There are a lot of times where I play TES against Esper Blade and they keep a hand with force but no blue card, or I can just strip their blue card and leave their force useless in their hand.

[Darkness]

Just went 6-0 at Small LGS 14 people tournament playing Gerry T's 75 minus Hymn in board for FoW. Report coming up tomorrow or Monday.

[Razorwynd]

Just went 6-0 at Small LGS 14 people tournament playing Gerry T's 75 minus Hymn in board for FoW. Report coming up tomorrow or Monday.

There is a thread for shardless BUG already. Unfortunately it is still in development because very few people are actually talking about the deck. Please post your report there.

Edit: you seem to have found it.

[Goosen]

I can not understand why this is a DTB, have not posted any good result for ages. I think the Shardless Agent deck results are counted to this thread.

[Barbed Blightning]

I can not understand why this is a DTB, have not posted any good result for ages. I think the Shardless Agent deck results are counted to this thread.

I think the confusion lies in the fact that TA Tempo is still making top 8s and since they have the same name, they are grouped together unfairly

[Goosen]

That might be it. Anyway it really should not be DTB.

[phazonmutant]

This is the data that DTB is based on: http://www.tcdecks.net/metagame.php?format=Legacy&fecha=2013-3
If you drill into the "BUG Control" archetype, it's clear that the majority are Shardless BUG: http://www.tcdecks.net/tipo.php?archetype=BUG%20Control&format=Legacy

Pretty sure Delver based TA is not grouped together with Control.

[catmint]

Delver used to be grouped together with control, but that was a while ago. These days Shardless really took over the BUG control/midrange spectrum, but as long as tcdecks does not split it up, it is also tough for thesource to select the correct DTB's. My suggestion was to merge the shardless thread with this one, since both threads are not that active and imo the decks are similar enough (one abusing shardless engine, the other one snapcaster mage).

[Nihil Credo]

Just a clarification: this thread was put in the DTBF on the assumption that people would use it to also discuss the Shardless option (which made up exactly 50% of the March results for the TCDecks "BUG Control" category), to avoid having three BUG threads in the forum. Particularly since neither Shardless nor Shardless-less, by themselves, would make the cut.

Looking at the last few pages, obviously this hasn't worked out. So I'll be moving the Shardless thread to the DTBF as well for the rest of this month. The DTB arrangement for next month will depend on the complete April results - so far all but one placement is from Shardless, which would make the solution simple, but this could change. (For catmint: the forum software makes thread merging a complete mess, so it's not a viable option, sorry.)

[phazonmutant]

I feel bad posting a list that hasn't been battle-tested, but this thread is so dead... I've been testing Deedstill to pretty good success on cockatrice:
2 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Standstill
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Disfigure
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Life from the Loam
2 Counterspell
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk Relentless
4 Force of Will
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs

// Sideboard
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
1 Darkblast
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Baleful Strix
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Chill

Deed is criminally underplayed right now, and I've been impressed by Mishra's Factory every time I've seen it played. It blocks the majority of the relevant threats in the format and is obviously insane under standstill. The biggest "problem" with Deedstill is that we don't get to play Deathrite Shaman, but I really haven't been missing him. Instead of dropping a 1-drop that doesn't really work great under Standstill, we just play more removal and counterspells.

This list is durdly to the max, but Deed and Standstill have a lot of raw power. Deed is great because it's good against all the creature decks and also the control decks right now. I think it's at its weakest against Thresh, which seems like a tough matchup. Some Innocent Bloods in the board might be warranted.

What do you guys think?

[Adryan]

I feel bad posting a list that hasn't been battle-tested, but this thread is so dead... I've been testing Deedstill to pretty good success on cockatrice:
2 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Standstill
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Disfigure
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Life from the Loam
2 Counterspell
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk Relentless
4 Force of Will
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs

// Sideboard
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
1 Darkblast
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Baleful Strix
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Chill

What do you guys think?

The deck is quite dead i would say. The BUG archetype is only viable with Standstill, Ancestral Vision or as a tempo deck. Everything else can't compete with Tier 1 Decks.

To improve the RUG matchup and your list in general in a well developed meta i suggest the following changes:

1. Add a playset of Innocent Blood to the maindeck
Best Removal against Jund, RUG and BUG Tempo. All Tier 1 Decks. It also helps a lot against many random decks like Goblins or Nic Fit.

2. Add a 2nd Life from the Loam and replace the basics with duals
Drawing 2 sucks sometimes but not drawing your singleton sucks even more in some matchups. We play so many Lands and i think it's more important to have all your mana available than to avoid some Wastelands.

3. Move Spell Pierce to the SB and add MD Discard
Soft Counters are very bad in every non Combo Matchup because of Standstill. Many opponents break Standstill very late.
Discard is maybe a personal preference but after a lot of testing, i found Discard always useful in every Matchup. Thoughtseize removes threats, Cantrips, provides information and protection for Standstill and Jace.

3. Move Garruk to the SB
Garruk is not at its best with all the red decks around (Jund &RUG, random Maverick with Pfire). I'd rather play the 5 mana Garruk Maindeck.

4. Play no Creatures in the Maindeck and play 4 Jace (Snapcaster is not a creature xD)
I don't like that my opponent gets any value from his removal spells.
Baleful Strix seems cute but there are better cards to play in BUG Control. In my testing i found Innocent Blood to be better against RUG Delver and Jund than Strix, because Strix can be targeted by Spell Snare, Daze (3 CMC is a lot against RUG Delver) and Pyroblast.
Jace is your main wincon, and with a 4th Jace you increase your chances to draw one before your opponent. That's very important against Esper or Miracle.

5. play more Flusterstorm and Perish in your 75
both cards are very good against RUG Delver and Perish is excellent in the current meta.

[phazonmutant]

To improve the RUG matchup and your list in general in a well developed meta i suggest the following changes:

1. Add a playset of Innocent Blood to the maindeck
Best Removal against Jund, RUG and BUG Tempo. All Tier 1 Decks. It also helps a lot against many random decks like Goblins or Nic Fit.
...
4. Play no Creatures in the Maindeck and play 4 Jace (Snapcaster is not a creature xD)
I don't like that my opponent gets any value from his removal spells.
Baleful Strix seems cute but there are better cards to play in BUG Control. In my testing i found Innocent Blood to be better against RUG Delver and Jund than Strix, because Strix can be targeted by Spell Snare, Daze (3 CMC is a lot against RUG Delver) and Pyroblast.*

First off, thank you for the suggestions! I'm not a very experienced Standstill player, but learning the archetype with a bit of a brew has been fun. Of course it's always valuable to get advice from more experience control players.

I love Innocent Blood and have been very happy having 2 in the sideboard for a variety of matchups. I agree that Strix on his own is not strong enough to beat Thresh for the reasons you've described.
On the other hand, I think that the idea of just blanking opponent's removal doesn't work in a deck that wants to actively use manlands to either block or win the game. Vendilion Clique is a very strong, versatile card that's won me a number of games and I like that Strix is a removal spell that provides some small pressure under Standstill.
So I can definitely see cutting Strix for a bunch of Bloods, but I'm worried that a) I'm going to have too many dead cards against combo, and b) I really do think that Clique is one of the best creatures, so in matchups where you're not trading off Clique as a removal spell (like blocking Goose), Innocent Blood gets a lot worse.


3. Move Garruk to the SB
Garruk is not at its best with all the red decks around (Jund &RUG, random Maverick with Pfire). I'd rather play the 5 mana Garruk Maindeck.
...
Jace is your main wincon, and with a 4th Jace you increase your chances to draw one before your opponent. That's very important against Esper or Miracle.

You're right, Garruk is just too cute. I had cut him because at 4 mana he's not very high impact. If I felt I could consistently cast a GGG spell I'd agree Primal Hunter is better, but that seems ambitious.
I've been thinking about trying out a 4th Jace. I really don't think I need the help against Miracles (x-0 in games pre/post against a good pilot), but I could see Blade control being closer. I'll give it a shot.



2. Add a 2nd Life from the Loam and replace the basics with duals
Drawing 2 sucks sometimes but not drawing your singleton sucks even more in some matchups. We play so many Lands and i think it's more important to have all your mana available than to avoid some Wastelands.

3. Move Spell Pierce to the SB and add MD Discard
Soft Counters are very bad in every non Combo Matchup because of Standstill. Many opponents break Standstill very late.
Discard is maybe a personal preference but after a lot of testing, i found Discard always useful in every Matchup. Thoughtseize removes threats, Cantrips, provides information and protection for Standstill and Jace.
...
5. play more Flusterstorm and Perish in your 75
both cards are very good against RUG Delver and Perish is excellent in the current meta.

2) I'll try out replacing basics with duals. I've been very happy so far with the basics and I really can't see myself not having just 1 basic Island, but I think that's because my testing is a little inbred against decks with Blood Moon. Not sure I can get behind 2 LftL though. I'm not even very happy with 1.

3) Ok, I'll give that change a shot. Pierce has been very hit or miss, although on the whole I've been happy with it.

5) I agree with Flusterstorm. I bumped it up to 2 and am considering a third if I move the Innocent Bloods to the main as you suggested. It's criminally underplayed.
I'm not sure I understand the appeal of Perish. There's a lot of non-G aggro decks right now, and Perish is pretty much just a discounted but less-versatile Deed.

Thanks again for your suggestions! I'll test around some more on cockatrice and hopefully will play some version of this deck at my local tournament on Wednesday and report back.


edit: forgot some stuff
Before I read your post I'd been continuing to make tweaks to the deck and just wanted to get your take on them. So I found I was losing most games to consistency issues - not drawing lands in my 24-land deck, drawing a bunch of dead removal, not drawing removal, etc. I also found that dropping back-to-back Standstills really aren't even that good except against combo because of hand size, so drawing 2-plus Standstills at once was not good. Also, the deck isn't as maximized on Standstill as some - only 3 Wastes and 4 manlands.
So to fix these consistency issues, I tried adding 2 Ponders and cutting 1 Standstill (with 23 lands). It's felt much better so far.

[phazonmutant]

One last bump before I give up on the deck. I played this at my local tournament this week:
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Baleful Strix
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Disfigure
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Life from the Loam
1 Thoughtseize
1 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Standstill
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Wasteland
2 Island
1 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 2 Innocent Blood
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Perish

I tested out the changes Adryan suggested a little but didn't much care for most of them, although I didn't play enough to really know for certain. I did incorporate some of his suggestions.
Small turnout this time again unfortunately.

Rd 1 - Thresh (against Brian Eason)
Game 1 I played pretty well around Stifle and Daze, but ultimately wasn't able to answer a Mongoose after he countered my Baleful Strix and Liliana. Game 2 I got timewalked by a Stifle (perhaps could have done a better job playing around it - he had been representing Stifle), then he countered my Life from the Loam twice, keeping me off B mana while his creatures beat down.
0-1

Rd 2 - TES (against Megadeus)
Game 1 I kept a hand with Counterspell and a couple Brainstorms, but he Emptied for 14 on the play turn 2. I couldn't find a Deed in time. Game 2 I was able to slow him down with Thoughtseize then Ponder into a Deed when he Emptied. Game 3 I had double Force almost all game and was able to stop him.
1-1

Rd 3 - Bw Pox
Game 1 was over pretty quickly when he cast Lingering Souls instead of Smallpox, allowing me to untap into Jace. Game 2 was very grindy - I Extirpated his Bloodghast and later Snapcastered it on Worm Harvest, but Soul Siphon killed me before I found action or another Surgical. With 3 minutes on the clock, we started Game 3. By the end of turns I had Surgical'd his Loam and Bloodghasts and had a Jace on board and a backup in hand, so he was a gentleman and scooped.
2-1

Quarters - Goblins
Ah, my favorite matchup. G1 I appeared to be stabilized, but then lost as soon as he cast Siege-Gang Commander. Even though I Deeded away his tokens, the SCG got me next turn. G2 was fairly grindy and in my favor on board until he Ringleadered into Krenko, another Ringleader, and Incinerator. Then I couldn't win.


Overall I would say that I'm not the best Standstill pilot, as testing with alphastryk has shown (thanks for pointing out the many mistakes that I make!). This build is the best that I've been able to come up with, but it has the fundamental problem of not being able to close out a game once it somewhat stabilizes. Vendilion Clique seems to be by far the best way to do that, maybe there should be a third main? The manabase is also atrocious.
It seems strange to me, but after intensively testing this deck and playing in the tournament, I feel as though my draws are significantly less consistent than combo decks, even my 12-land 5-color darling, TES. I'm putting this archetype down and going back to unfair decks.

[apistat_commander]

I have been tooling around with this list:

Lands [23]
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

Creatures [13]
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

Instants [14]
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare

Sorceries [4]
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek

Planeswalkers(5):
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

SB:
1 Krosan Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Disfigure
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Duress
2 Flusterstorm
2 Engineered Plague
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb

I wanted something that was a balance between the aggression of a TA list and the strong endgame of pure control. Thoughts and/or suggestions?

[Adryan]

Thoughts and/or suggestions?

Inferior to Esperdeathblade, Esper Control (3-4 Lingering Souls hurt a lot), Jund, BUG Standstill and Shardless BUG. So why should anyone play this deck?

[Madmankevinx]

I am contemplating trying something like this out this week. Mainly for fun and a change of pace, but I feel that I'll do fine. I'm sure I've missed something(someone say 4 Deathrite Shaman) so feel free to suggest card substitutions and a reason.

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 The Abyss
3 Standstill
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library

4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce

1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Ponder
1 Damnation
4 Thoughtseize

4 Baleful Strix

3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest

SB:
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Engineered Plague
2 Flusterstorm
1 Krosan Grip


How's it look?

[Madmankevinx]

So I decided to go ahead and bring a BUG control list to the weekly Legacy event last night. The deck was great and had game against everything I faced. For the record, our group of players regularly top 8's SCG events which I'll mention to put into perspective the competitiveness and skill level at our tourneys. This is the list I ran:

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless

3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage

3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell

1 Ponder
1 Damnation
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Thoughtseize

1 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library

1 Crucible of Worlds

3 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest

SB:
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
1 Thoughtseize
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
2 Perish
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Blue Elemental Blast

My only loss was to mono red burn all night. Beat loam pox, affinity, sneak and show and RUG Delver. Every single game was won from Jace Ultimate. Pernicious Deed was absolutely ridiculous and I need to get at least one more in the main. Crucible of Worlds was a fantastic one-of and won a couple games off of a waste-lock. Spell Snare is AWESOME. Tarmogoyf was usually a 6/7 or 7/8 all night, but it became obvious early in the tournament that this deck just wins with Jace. I don't understand why this deck style isn't being played right now. It's got game against basically everything and I enjoyed the looks of hopelessness and frustration on the faces of some of the East Coasts finest. I will be tweaking the list a little bit and playing it some more in the weeks to come.

[lavafrogg]

This thread is super dead but I don't think there is anywhere else to post this list I want to play this week. Last week my. LGS was filled with degenerate decks so I don't want to get stuck playing rock again. This is what I am going to sleeve up:

4 snapcaster Mage
4 deathrite shaman
4 tarmogoyf

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 abrupt decay
3 dismember
4 force of will

4 hymn to tourach
1 life from the loam
1 unearth

3 Lilliana of the veil

1 sylvan library

7 fetches
4 wastelands
2 bayou
3 tropical island
3 underground sea

My biggest goal is to grind them down with hymn recursion and then seal the deal with a Lilly keeping them in top deck mode. The cantrips will help us find disruption and then the loam to break the Lilliana +1 ability.

16 blue cards is low but I don't really want to be force of willing threats all willy nilly. With abrupt decay and dismembers I think I am going to try to kill anything that goyf can't block. Super aggressive decks will be a problem but a stabilizer in the board should help out bunches. My preliminary board:

3 surgical extractions
2 natures claim
3 spell pierce
2 golgari charm
1 toxic deluge
2 inquisition
3 death mark

[lavafrogg]

So, after some testing against some friends I don't like the dismembers and wish there was a g/b/u utility spell printed recently that did useful things for one mana. Currently I am looking at phyrexian mana cards(mental misstep would be nuts here), and gitaxian probe would up the blue count and also work really well with snapcaster.

Other candidates are vapor snag, which turns into pseudo removal with hymn/active Lilly, and noxious revival which could be good...

I also am looking at the inclusion of dark confidant but I have no idea what to cut. The smartest move would most likely be tarmogoyf but then I would have zero clock to speak of. Confidant would also help break the Lilliana symmetry quite well.


Currently:

-1 unearth
-3 dismember

+4 dark confidant

Still changing

-1 life from the loam

+1 lilliana

[lavafrogg]

Does anyone think that this should even be a thread anymore?

I am really interested in a snapcaster/Lilliana/unearth engine that would fall under the midrange BUG category, should i just start a thread in new and developmental or go at it here?

[catmint]

Imo the thread can stay inactive until another major meta transition makes BUG without Delver and without Shardles viable again...
Maybe nemesis helps.. not sure...

[lavafrogg]

Imo the thread can stay inactive until another major meta transition makes BUG without Delver and without Shardles viable again...
Maybe nemesis helps.. not sure...

That's not very helpful....

[ZimAshe]

That's not very helpful....

So Lavafrog helped me to find this thread. Hoping that we can maybe have a discussion on where this particular version of BUG sits in the current Meta. I was at my LGS yesterday for a legacy event. and while it didn't fire there were some players that that I got to test this deck against. Particularly one who is very good at legacy, has made some SCG top 8's and plays a TNN deck that I had built my version of BUG to hopefully beat.

The List:

Creatures:3
3 Deathrite Shaman

Spells:32
4 Brainstorm
3 Innocent Blood
1 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Life from the Loam
1 Intuition
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Force of Will

Lands:25
2 Bayou
1 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Island
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland


I think that this list is pretty ripe for the meta. while everyone is trying to get there TNN's in play you have all the answers. Deed is really, really good right now in the midrange blue matchup.

I played against Belcher 4 times and only lost once. Then against Robots and won all three games including post sideboard. and played My friend's Esper Deathblade deck 5 game ones and won 3 of the 5.

[Nastaboi]

Needs moar Standstill. You should check UBGx Landstill thread for ideas, it has been more active recently.

[mishima_kazuya]

4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 True-Name Nemesis

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculpter

4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Daze

Sideboard:
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Umezawa's JItte
1 True-Name Nemesis
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Marsh Casualties
2 Disfigure
1 Dismember
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Duress


From a few suggestions, I took the list that Gerrard Fabiano and Reid Duke brewed up and upped the TNN count to 4 in the 75. I also replaced some of the sweepers with Marsh Casualties, since Toxic Deluge and the like seem like a nonbo in a deck with a bunch of X/1s.
So I took the above list and made top 4 of a local 64 person tournament.
Round 1: Mono white Solider Tribal
Win match
Round 2: Deathblade
Draw match
Round 3: Punishing Jund
Win match
Round 4: Omnitell
Win match
Round 5: Goblins
Win match
Round 6: ID
Quarterfinals: Jund
Win match

MVP: Marsh Casualties and Spell Pierce
LVP: Daze

Notes: I had to mulligan a lot of 1 landers, so it may help to add a 23rd land. Perhaps a Creeping Tar Pit? Despite Daze usually being the worst card in the deck, it feels like a nessicity (sp?) to make up for the lack of cheap interactive spells(StP, Lightning Bolt, Force of Will, etc). One could argue for Spell Pierce instead of Daze, which may be worth trying.

[Madmankevinx]

My meta is currently dominated by "fair" creature decks at the moment, so I wanted to post a list I have been doodling on paper and see how some of you feel about it. I may even sleeve it up tonight for a small-ish local 4 round event...

The List:
-----------

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
1 Vendilion Clique

3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
1 Intuition

1 Ponder
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek

1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou

I believe the list is 61 cards. I've never shied away from a 61 card list if I like it. I know there is debate after debate on this subject, but I'm not usually playing for any real money so it's more about fun and bragging rights. I'd love some comments and maybe some criticisms if you have any folks!

[Deckerator]

imo i think your deck is a bit too mana hungry.
I would maybe do a 2/2 planeswalker split and add Goyf or something.

For what reason do you play Intuition? I would cut it and then you come down to 60 cars ;)

I see in your deck Baleful Strix, like in some others before. For what reason does this creature celebrate its come back?

[Razorwynd]

I really like the list… though it is mana intensive (and weak to blood moon)


imo i think your deck is a bit too mana hungry.
I would maybe do a 2/2 planeswalker split and add Goyf or something.

I think the Baleful Strix does a good job of smoothing out the draws… I would advise against the goyf


For what reason do you play Intuition? I would cut it and then you come down to 60 cars ;)
Here is a sample pile for you: Thespian Stage, Dark Depth, Life from the Loam. Intuition and Loam does a lot to feed this, admittedly, mana hungry deck and it acts a resilient win condition.



I see in your deck Baleful Strix, like in some others before. For what reason does this creature celebrate its come back?

Strix is an amazing card in a mostly fair meta… it smooths your draws and eats one of your opponents cards? for the low low cost of UB, sign me up

[Razorwynd]

The List:
-----------

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
1 Vendilion Clique

3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
1 Intuition

1 Ponder
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek

1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou

I would suggest changing the Ponder to Sylvan Library and dropping one discard spell to go to 60 cards… maybe 1 swamp for an underground sea to have some game against bloodmoon

[Madmankevinx]

Blood moon is a definite auto loss looking at my list. Perhaps a basic forest in the sideboard with a couple Krosan grip so I have a chance game 2-3? The Strix are great at protecting your planeswalkers and can put your opponents in very awkward positions sometimes. They immediately replace themselves too. Just a ton of value for 2 mana. The intuition is for a Loam+Depths+Stage pile against an opponent with no Swords to Plowshares. Sylvan does seem better than a ponder, but would lower my blue count for FoW. Not sure what to change. Thanks for the input so far!!

[Nastaboi]

The deck is also hungry for colored mana. You should just accept some losses to Blood Moon and have overall better mana base.

Intuition-Depths is just too cute. I don't think you can afford to play Dark Depths which is totally a dead card. You don't need a dedicated victory condition; Jace is your victory condition. If anything, I would like to add another Creeping Tar Pit, the card is huge. 23 lands is fine, as long as they all tap for mana.

I think Ponder is necessary as you need blue cards to support Force of Will. 17 blue cards is not much, and you'd want to side out Strix or Jace in matchups where Force is important, which would put you very low on blue cards. I'd suggest you should look into upping the blue count.

[Madmankevinx]

I agree that my intuition pile is cute, but in a game where I am in control and time is ticking, I have been wanting an oops I win play. I used to grind it out with Jace ultimate or tar Pit but the Marit Lage can just end it on the spot or become a big griselbrand blocker if need be. I'm hesitant to cut it.

I'll also add that an Intuition for Loam+Wasteland x2 is pretty good against a lot of decks right now.

[tyndall]

Hi,
I am preparing my next local tournament and I think playing this card list:

Creatures [16]
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Snapcaster Mage

Instants [11]
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
3 Force of Will

Sorceries [10]
4 Ponder
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize

Planeswalkers [2]
2 Liliana of the Veil

Lands [21]
1 Swamp
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Underground Sea
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Disfigure
1 Dismember
1 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm
2 Krosan Grip
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Sower of Temptation
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

Does the decklist/sideboard seem fine?
Thanks for your help

[Madmankevinx]

I'd make the singleton Cabal Therapy an Inquisition of Kozilek or the 4th Thoughtseize. I think I would move the Toxic Deluge to the sideboard because Bob+ maindeck FoWs + Thoughtseize seems like too much life loss considering our fetch-land count.

[Wupang]

Hi tryed out Phimus Pan list and it when 3-2 but haven't play alot of this type of deck.
I was wondring how do your sidebord in this matchup:

UWR Delver
RUG Delver
BUG Delver
UW Miracles
Death and Taxes
Elves

Decklist
Creatures (12)

3 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique
Planeswalkers (6)

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (23)

1 Bayou
3 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
Spells (19)

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
2 Dismember
3 Force of Will
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thoughtseize
Sideboard

1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Dread of Night
1 Force of Will
2 Golgari Charm
3 Spell Pierce
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Marsh Casualties

:)

[LEH]

I'm a big fan of Phimus Pans list myself, it seems to have game verses everything in my meta. In regards to Death and Taxes and Elves all you need to do is bring in Marsh Casualties and Golgari Charm (also Dread of Night for D&T too) and use spot removal for key targets and larger targets that don't die to charm et al. - I would likely remove Force and/or Thoughtseize for them.

Against Miracles, I'd personally maximize disruption by bringing in Force, Pierce, Hymn and likely Revoker (to disrupt Top and or Grindstone, et al). I'd personally remove Baleful (useless in this MU), Dismember (again useless) and 3 Deathrite Shamans for them (the Shamans could be wrong but they seem like the weakest link in the deck to me as Miracles tend to either turn them into chumps with RiP or remove them fairly easily with their removal).

Delver decks don't like hand disruption but I think bringing in Hymn is the wrong play as it'll likely just get Dazed or Pierced, etc. On the whole I'm fairly limited on testing vs Delver decks myself - the ones I have played I tended to win on the back of DRS, hand disruption, Decay and Nemesis. I also extracted a RUG players Tropical Island once, that works for shutting them down lol.

[Madmankevinx]

Lately I've stolen a few wins by having a "creatures!" sideboard plan. Your opponent always sides out every price of creature removal they can replace from their board. A couple TNNs and a few Goyfs steal game 2's in absolute hilarious fashion. True story.

[Griselpuff]

I'm surprised this thread isn't seeing more action. I was skeptical at first, but I think Phimus and his friends came up with a really solid list. Here's my take:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 True-Name Nemesis
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Baleful Strix
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
1 Ponder
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Disfigure
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Disfigure
SB: 2 Marsh Casualties
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker

It's better vs. Miracles/fair decks and worse vs. combo than Team America. I think that's a good place to be right now as Sneak and Show is not too hard to beat with this list. Elves is rough game 1, but postboard I like my chances with Perish.

[mike1987]

I'm surprised this thread isn't seeing more action. I was skeptical at first, but I think Phimus and his friends came up with a really solid list. Here's my take:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 True-Name Nemesis
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Baleful Strix
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
1 Ponder
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Disfigure
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Disfigure
SB: 2 Marsh Casualties
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker

It's better vs. Miracles/fair decks and worse vs. combo than Team America. I think that's a good place to be right now as Sneak and Show is not too hard to beat with this list. Elves is rough game 1, but postboard I like my chances with Perish.



Just wanna know what kind of advantage does this deck have over the traditional shardless bug lists? Undecided on which version to play.

[Griselpuff]

It doesn't get crapped on by combo? Also, it plays 3 tar pits

[Razorwynd]

It doesn't get crapped on by combo? Also, it plays 3 tar pits Is that really that different between the two? I feel that most of the relevant combo cards are identical between the two lists.

4 FoW
4-6 Inquizition/Thoughtseize/Duress/Hymn
2 Revoker/ Pithing Needle

I guess most Shardless lists do not run 3 Spell Pierce though I have seen a number running 2 Flusterstorm.

[Razorwynd]

It doesn't get crapped on by combo? Also, it plays 3 tar pits
Also, if you were to play one basic swamp in the list (to give you a bit more game against blood moon) could you cut an underground sea? Or are basics out of the question?

What about Sylvan Library, I have always loved this card a Jace #4. I would be interested to hear your/phimus' thoughts on these two topics.

[Jay_Gatz]

I'm surprised this thread isn't seeing more action. I was skeptical at first, but I think Phimus and his friends came up with a really solid list. Here's my take:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 True-Name Nemesis
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Baleful Strix
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
1 Ponder
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Disfigure
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Disfigure
SB: 2 Marsh Casualties
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker

It's better vs. Miracles/fair decks and worse vs. combo than Team America. I think that's a good place to be right now as Sneak and Show is not too hard to beat with this list. Elves is rough game 1, but postboard I like my chances with Perish.

I'm going to try out this list with maybe a few SB changes for my meta tomorrow at my local.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[btm10]

Also, if you were to play one basic swamp in the list (to give you a bit more game against blood moon) could you cut an underground sea? Or are basics out of the question?

What about Sylvan Library, I have always loved this card a Jace #4. I would be interested to hear your/phimus' thoughts on these two topics.

I'm currently very torn between Control and Delver BUG variants, and have been bouncing between them. I think Sylvan Library is excellent and currently run one main, one board; I'm strongly considering making room for a second one main to draw it more often. The downside is that running more than one Library really drives you to run 9-10 fetchlands so that you get maximum utility out of it, and especially so you can throw the second one away effectively without discarding it to Liliana. I'm currently running two basics (one swamp, one flex depending on what I expect) and 4 Delta, 4 Catacombs in addition to the "normal" dual package of 4 Sea, 2 Trop, 1 Bayou and am very happy with them in my delver-heavy meta. They also let you steal games from decks like Painter and Death and Taxes that you otherwise would just lose to Blood Moon, Wasteland, and Port.

Also, I've been testing maindeck Counterspell and the 4th MD Force in place of non-Thoughtseize discard and have been very happy with it, especially against Miracles.

[Razorwynd]

I'm currently very torn between Control and Delver BUG variants, and have been bouncing between them. I think Sylvan Library is excellent and currently run one main, one board; I'm strongly considering making room for a second one main to draw it more often. The downside is that running more than one Library really drives you to run 9-10 fetchlands so that you get maximum utility out of it, and especially so you can throw the second one away effectively without discarding it to Liliana. I'm currently running two basics (one swamp, one flex depending on what I expect) and 4 Delta, 4 Catacombs in addition to the "normal" dual package of 4 Sea, 2 Trop, 1 Bayou and am very happy with them in my delver-heavy meta. They also let you steal games from decks like Painter and Death and Taxes that you otherwise would just lose to Blood Moon, Wasteland, and Port.

Also, I've been testing maindeck Counterspell and the 4th MD Force in place of non-Thoughtseize discard and have been very happy with it, especially against Miracles.

The changes you mention are all things that I can get behind…and are probably very meta-dependent. The few slots I am not sure about in akatsuki's list are the 1 of ponder (Sylvan instead) and maybe the 1-of IoK. Everything else seems smooth.

I guess it would be interesting to get thoughts about Perish vs Toxic Deluge vs Deed in the board.

[btm10]

I think you're right that the control/disruption package is very meta-dependent. Sylvan is probably just good in general, though.

To your question, I personally like Deluge. We've got Maelstrom Pulse to handle things like Planeswalkers that don't die to Abrupt Decay, and Deed potentially destroys a lot of our permanents (Sylvan, TNN, etc.) in the destruction process. My only beef with Perish is how narrow it is relative to the other options, basically only killing Goyfs and Deathrites while being an Elves hoser. Deluge is just as good vs. Elves as Perish is, but it also kills everything in the format other than Marit Lage.

[btm10]

Sorry to double post, but I took BUG Control to SCG Cincinnati, going 4-0 in the Open Trial against ANT (2-1), RUG (2-1), RUG (2-1), and Miracles (2-0) before posting a less than stellar 3-4 drop in the main event. I violently punted my round 1 match against Shardless BUG (won game 1, then miscounted the toughness of a Tarmogoyf on what should've been a 4-for-1 Toxic Deluge), then lost to Sneak and Show (1-2), beat Dredge, Reanimator, and Miracles (2-1, 2-0, 2-0), before falling to Imperial Painter (0-2) and Dredge again (0-2). I'll post a full report if people are interested, but this is the list that I ran:

Land (23)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Wasteland
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island

Creatures (11)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Baleful Strix
1 Vendillion Clique

Planeswalkers (5)
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Instants, Sorceries, and Enchantments (21)
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Thoughtseize
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Spell Pierce
1 Sylvan Library

Sideboard
2 Null Rod
2 Dread of Night
2 Flusterstorm
2 Marsh Casualties (Open)/2 Golgari Charm (Trial)
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Krosan Grip
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Zur's Weirding
1 Extirpate

The basics, Sylvan Library, and maindeck vanilla Counterspell were excellent. I fetched Bayou a grand total of three times the entire weekend, and I will probably replace it with a Forest, which would've won me game 1 against Painter. The Spell Pierce was good, but the information from Thoughtseize #4 might be better. The deck is fantastic, and extremely well positioned right now. My combo results are a little misleading, because in combo games I lost this weekend, I was killed (or effectively killed) on turn 2 in all but 1 of them; my results are probably not representative of the decks' performance against combo in general.

[wcm8]

edit: still tweaking the list.

[btm10]

I think you're missing the fine distinctions between BUG Delver, Shardless BUG, and BUG Control. In a land-heavy deck, especially one that wants to get out of the early game, Daze is bad, because you're setting yourself back on board, and when you're running more than the minimum number of lands you effectively end up casting Daze for a land drop instead of 1U. That's fine for a Delver strategy that is running 18-19 lands and threats that close the game out quickly. A control list wants to develop the game, let DRS feed on graveyards (which synergizes poorly with Tarmogoyf), and make its first 5-6 land drops so it can play Jace and Liliana while still defending itself, and to use disruption in parallel with Tar Pit. The Pimus Phan-style lists that have put up results recently have run True-Name Nemesis as their main win condition because it's excellent as a blocker, an evasive threat, and extremely hard to remove. Goyf dies to Decay and Swords and isn't evasive, and my testing with Tombstalker suggested that it's too easily removed as well as being too slow against fast decks. I'm also very troubled by your lack of non-Decay, non-Liliana removal. It seems like you will be very soft to fair decks.

[wcm8]

I think you're missing the fine distinctions between BUG Delver, Shardless BUG, and BUG Control. In a land-heavy deck, especially one that wants to get out of the early game, Daze is bad, because you're setting yourself back on board, and when you're running more than the minimum number of lands you effectively end up casting Daze for a land drop instead of 1U. That's fine for a Delver strategy that is running 18-19 lands and threats that close the game out quickly. A control list wants to develop the game, let DRS feed on graveyards (which synergizes poorly with Tarmogoyf), and make its first 5-6 land drops so it can play Jace and Liliana while still defending itself, and to use disruption in parallel with Tar Pit. The Pimus Phan-style lists that have put up results recently have run True-Name Nemesis as their main win condition because it's excellent as a blocker, an evasive threat, and extremely hard to remove. Goyf dies to Decay and Swords and isn't evasive, and my testing with Tombstalker suggested that it's too easily removed as well as being too slow against fast decks. I'm also very troubled by your lack of non-Decay, non-Liliana removal. It seems like you will be very soft to fair decks.

I am well aware of the "fine distinctions" between BUG lists, as I've been playing BUG variants pretty much since I got serious about Legacy years and years ago.

My argument is that TA simply *doesn't* close out games quickly -- it doesn't run Bolt, it doesn't run Mongoose, and it doesn't run Spell Pierce to protect its threats. Of all Delver strategies, TA is closest to a midrange style deck, and so the list I am positing is simply dropping the Delver angle entirely and just incorporating the "good" elements of the Tempo plan with the BUG control shell.

The primary difference with the list I posted and Lejay's BUG Cascade deck is:

-4 Shardless Agent
-4 Ancestral Vision
+4 Ponder
+4 Daze

Now there are a few other minor tweaks, but this is basically the gist of it. For explanations for all of the other choices, I would encourage you to read Lejay's own posts on the BUG Cascade thread.

I think that the BUG control shell is strong enough to beat 'fair' decks that the card advantage element provided by Agent and Visions is really just "win more", and can instead be dropped for Ponder and Daze. These increase the strength of the deck in the early turns -- which is where BUG Cascade is often weakest, especially if you don't manage to land a turn 1 DRS. Ponder makes it so you won't stumble on lands in the early game, and can help sequence your upcoming turns -- compare that to AV, which is incredibly slow outside of turn 1 or cascading into it. Daze helps force through your own threats/bombs, and makes you less of an easy target to combo decks. Setting yourself back a turn is hardly a big deal when you have inevitability against a lot of decks.

[btm10]

Your arguments, especially that Daze somehow gives you inevitability against anything, are awful What you've done is propose a middle-ground BUG list that's just a bad version of Shardless because it isn't as explosive, a bad version of Delver because it doesn't run Delver, and a bad version of control because it exacerbates its tempo problems with a 'free' counterspell that it can't capitalize on quickly because the deck isn't designed to do anything quickly.

Also, UWR Delver is almost certainty a slower Delver variant than BUG Delver.

[wcm8]

Your arguments, especially that Daze somehow gives you inevitability against anything, are awful What you've done is propose a middle-ground BUG list that's just a bad version of Shardless because it isn't as explosive, a bad version of Delver because it doesn't run Delver, and a bad version of control because it exacerbates its tempo problems with a 'free' counterspell that it can't capitalize on quickly because the deck isn't designed to do anything quickly.

Also, UWR Delver is almost certainty a slower Delver variant than BUG Delver.

The argument *isn't* that Daze itself provides inevitability, it's that the combination of Abrupt Decay, Toxic Deluge, and Liliana of the Veil do. Few decks in Legacy can beat this combination of removal, and the sideboard deals with just about everything else. I really see no need to defend the remaining card choices, because the proof is provided via Lejay's performance at BoM this past weekend. My argument is simply that the BUG Cascade shell is powerful *in spite* of running clunky cards like Vision/Agent, not solely because of them.

Daze simply helps you to survive to the point of the game where you can effectively resolve those spells, and Ponder likewise helps you draw into lands/threats/answers as needed (compared to twiddling your thumbs while a Vision ticks down). The problem with BUG Cascade is that it's not *always* laying down a Vision on Turn 1 or cascading into it. Also, FoW aside Cascade has no way of interacting with the stack which leaves it vulnerable in the early game. Ponder and Daze help patch up these problems.

[Barbed Blightning]

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=68893

Any thoughts on this?

[btm10]

I actually think that BUG Control is extraordinarily well positioned right now. I've changed my list a little bit from what's posted above, mostly the sideboard, but I did drop the MD Spell Pierce for the fourth Thoughtseize. I don't like Inquisition of Kozilek in Wise's main deck over Counterspell or Hymn to Tourach, and think that not running at least some basics is wrong. As a matter of personal preference, I like Sylvan Library over the third Jace, and would even like to find room for a second in my list because of how powerful it is in so many matchups.

[anwei]

I played a similar list the other night and went 4-1. Was underwhelmed by TNN, especially when bringing in 2 Golgari Charm and a Toxic Deluge, which I would love to play maindeck. There's one list on TC Decks (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13697&iddeck=100637) that's more of a hybrid with the Agent decks (but no Agent), running 3 Goyf. Not sure I like Snapcaster, but 4 DRS, 3 Goyf, 3 Strix, 2 TNN, 1 Clique is what I'd try next (with 1-2 maindeck Deluge and probably Library over 3rd Jace).

[btm10]

The thing I like about TNN is how it fulfills the Morphling role of pivoting quickly between unstoppable threat to brick wall. If I'm killing everything with Deluge, I don't care if I take a single TNN with their board. I tested Goyf once and didn't like it at all - it dies to Swords and Decay, it isn't evasive, and it doesn't pitch to Force. Having slightly easier color requirements and being a faster clock doesn't make up for that.

I have been meaning to test a 1-of Tombstalker, because he fulfills the fast clock and surviving Deluge roles while also being evasive and not Decay-able. I actually like the Snapcasters, and will have to test them.

[anwei]

The thing I like about TNN is how it fulfills the Morphling role of pivoting quickly between unstoppable threat to brick wall. If I'm killing everything with Deluge, I don't care if I take a single TNN with their board. I tested Goyf once and didn't like it at all - it dies to Swords and Decay, it isn't evasive, and it doesn't pitch to Force. Having slightly easier color requirements and being a faster clock doesn't make up for that.

I have been meaning to test a 1-of Tombstalker, because he fulfills the fast clock and surviving Delugenroles while also being evasive and not Decay-able. I actually like the Snapcasters, and will have to test them.

These all could be fantastic points - I spent a few hours perusing decklists and playing with numbers, sleeved it up, and played against 2x Enchantress, MUD, Reanimator, and Death and Taxes (where I couldn't find a land for anything) - so not a lot of big TNN business between them; the matches all came down to other things.

[btm10]

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=68893

Any thoughts on this?

So what were your thoughts? I know you play BUG Delver (or at least are active in that thread), so I'm interested as to what you think. I'd also like see what you think about Rich Shay's BUG Delver list.

Also, to anwei - I think your matchups may have something to do with your feelings on TNN. What do you think about counterspells vs. discard? I think that's the biggest question in building BUG Control right now, so I'd like to know what several people think, especially those that have done well with the deck recently. I've gone with the all-discard plan, with both 4 Thoughtseize, 2 Hymn and 4 TS, 2 Inquisition, and was underwhelmed each time. I'm currently back on 4 TS, 2 Counterspell, which just feels better.

[Barbed Blightning]

Personally I find it decent, but I think lacks the power of more explosive styles of play (BUG Walkers or Shardless BUG for example). My current attraction to BUG Delver comes from the inclusion of Delver and Daze to seriously pressure your opponents early and Hymn's haymaker-power level.

My issue with the list here is that, aside from Jace + Lilly, it has no outstanding "deal with this or I win" cards for the fair grindy decks. Yeah, there is TNN, but I think most of us have come to the conclusion that he isn't so scary without equipment. I agree that he is fantastic at protecting Walkers, and I believe the morphling comparison is quite astute, but he's not as game-turning as deed, fast as Goyf or as powerful as Agent into what have you.

Right now I am curious about the BUG/Veteran Walkers deck. It plays some cards that NicFit does but I would not consider it a NicFit deck at all. Anyone here playing with the idea?

EDIT: Here's a goofy/cool list with a red splash for Nicol Bolas. There are more "serious" lists I am sure. http://www.gatheringmagic.com/insidethedeck-031214-inside-the-deck-legacy-veteran-walkers/

(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)

[anwei]

Also, to anwei - I think your matchups may have something to do with your feelings on TNN. What do you think about counterspells vs. discard? I think that's the biggest question in building BUG Control right now, so I'd like to know what several people think, especially those that have done well with the deck recently. I've gone with the all-discard plan, with both 4 Thoughtseize, 2 Hymn and 4 TS, 2 Inquisition, and was underwhelmed each time. I'm currently back on 4 TS, 2 Counterspell, which just feels better.

For sure those matches do affect my view of TNN.

I like the discard, am currently on 4 Thoughtseize, 1 Hymn, 4 FoW. There's a lot of stuff to tap out for at many points in the game: planeswalkers, sorcery-speed 3-mana removal, tar pit activation. I like not holding up counterspell in the mid-game.

[btm10]

Personally I find it decent, but I think lacks the power of more explosive styles of play (BUG Walkers or Shardless BUG for example). My current attraction to BUG Delver comes from the inclusion of Delver and Daze to seriously pressure your opponents early and Hymn's haymaker-power level.

My issue with the list here is that, aside from Jace + Lilly, it has no outstanding "deal with this or I win" cards for the fair grindy decks. Yeah, there is TNN, but I think most of us have come to the conclusion that he isn't so scary without equipment. I agree that he is fantastic at protecting Walkers, and I believe the morphling comparison is quite astute, but he's not as game-turning as deed, fast as Goyf or as powerful as Agent into what have you.

Right now I am curious about the BUG/Veteran Walkers deck. It plays some cards that NicFit does but I would not consider it a NicFit deck at all. Anyone here playing with the idea?

EDIT: Here's a goofy/cool list with a red splash for Nicol Bolas. There are more "serious" lists I am sure. http://www.gatheringmagic.com/insidethedeck-031214-inside-the-deck-legacy-veteran-walkers/

(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)

I playtested McDarby's Veteran Walkers briefly online and wasn't impressed with how it handled. It's extremely powerful against non-combo decks but just seems worse overall than Shardless because it's weaker against combo since it can't apply as much pressure. Of the three controlling/midrangey BUG variants I'd put the Explorer lists as the least powerful overall even though they're the best against midrange. If you want to run Deed in BUG Control, it's quite easy - my current sideboard has 2 because I've run into a lot of Merfolk and Death and Taxes at locals recently, and they're great in those matchups. Other than that, though, Control doesn't have any matchups that I would consider notably unfavorable. BUG Delver probably takes 55% from it, but it's also notably strong against Miracles, RUG Delver, and UWR Delver. I haven't tested the Deathblade matchup very thoroughly, but my preliminary thoughts are: it feels about even preboard and Deed is very, very good against them.

I'll post my current list if you're interested, but I think that while the Veteran Explorer BUG decks are fun(-ish) they are more prone to clunky play and disconnected draws than they initially appear to be. The reason to play BUG Control in my mind is that you want to play Shardless but expect a fair amount of combo and don't want to play Delver. I absolutely agree that BUG Control wants a bomb of some sort, though. I may have to test a Fact or Fiction.

Anwei- I really like holding up Counterspell in the midgame, especially because most opponents walk into it. It's also an insurance policy against things like Brainstorm to have good stuff from discard and always hits the card it needs to.

[Barbed Blightning]

I playtested McDarby's Veteran Walkers briefly online and wasn't impressed with how it handled. It's extremely powerful against non-combo decks but just seems worse overall than Shardless because it's weaker against combo since it can't apply as much pressure. Of the three controlling/midrangey BUG variants I'd put the Explorer lists as the least powerful overall even though they're the best against midrange. If you want to run Deed in BUG Control, it's quite easy - my current sideboard has 2 because I've run into a lot of Merfolk and Death and Taxes at locals recently, and they're great in those matchups. Other than that, though, Control doesn't have any matchups that I would consider notably unfavorable. BUG Delver probably takes 55% from it, but it's also notably strong against Miracles, RUG Delver, and UWR Delver. I haven't tested the Deathblade matchup very thoroughly, but my preliminary thoughts are: it feels about even preboard and Deed is very, very good against them.

I'll post my current list if you're interested, but I think that while the Veteran Explorer BUG decks are fun(-ish) they are more prone to clunky play and disconnected draws than they initially appear to be. The reason to play BUG Control in my mind is that you want to play Shardless but expect a fair amount of combo and don't want to play Delver. I absolutely agree that BUG Control wants a bomb of some sort, though. I may have to test a Fact or Fiction.

Anwei- I really like holding up Counterspell in the midgame, especially because most opponents walk into it. It's also an insurance policy against things like Brainstorm to have good stuff from discard and always hits the card it needs to.
I'll be happy to see a list, I am not that familiar with the archetype. I still think BUG Walkers is that bad an option--like the NicFit archetype, you main destroys fair decks, so your side can be more or less dedicated to the combo matches. Plus you still have Therapy and FoW--a light hate package, but enough to get you by some games. I agree, however, that the deck needs a clock--tombstalker comes to mind, but I'm sure there are other stupid cards we can ramp into that are deed proof for other matches.

Combo is also at a low point right now; Miracles, D&T and the rampant Delver decks are making it hard for them to get a foothold.

Again, though, I am relatively new to the Control archetype

(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)

[anwei]

I'll post a full report if people are interested, but this is the list that I ran:

...

Instants, Sorceries, and Enchantments (21)
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Thoughtseize
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Spell Pierce
1 Sylvan Library

...

The basics, Sylvan Library, and maindeck vanilla Counterspell were excellent.

I think I've read this list like 3 times and always thought "short a Strix, Jace, and 3 discard... for what? Library and 4th force.. doesn't seem like enough to only have 8 disruption.." and moved on. You're short 2 cards - is this 2x Counterspell?

I'm deciding between 4th Force, Counterspell, Dimir Charm, Flusterstorm, and Pierce for my 9th disruptive spell. Has anyone run Charm? It seems like a better mana cost than UU with Decay/Shaman activation to leave up, and seems like a pretty reasonable split removal/disruptive spell (I can't think of a single dead match).

Were/are you happy with 2 Jace?

[btm10]

I'll be happy to see a list, I am not that familiar with the archetype. I still think BUG Walkers is that bad an option--like the NicFit archetype, you main destroys fair decks, so your side can be more or less dedicated to the combo matches. Plus you still have Therapy and FoW--a light hate package, but enough to get you by some games. I agree, however, that the deck needs a clock--tombstalker comes to mind, but I'm sure there are other stupid cards we can ramp into that are deed proof for other matches.

Combo is also at a low point right now; Miracles, D&T and the rampant Delver decks are making it hard for them to get a foothold.

Again, though, I am relatively new to the Control archetype

(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vendilion Clique
4 True-Name Nemesis
3 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Island
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Forest
2 Baleful Strix
2 Counterspell
1 Tombstalker

Sideboard
2 Null Rod
1 Krosan Grip
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Spell Pierce
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pernicious Deed

Is the list I'm currently on. I'll come back with thoughts/comments when it's not so late.



I think I've read this list like 3 times and always thought "short a Strix, Jace, and 3 discard... for what? Library and 4th force.. doesn't seem like enough to only have 8 disruption.." and moved on. You're short 2 cards - is this 2x Counterspell?

I'm deciding between 4th Force, Counterspell, Dimir Charm, Flusterstorm, and Pierce for my 9th disruptive spell. Has anyone run Charm? It seems like a better mana cost than UU with Decay/Shaman activation to leave up, and seems like a pretty reasonable split removal/disruptive spell (I can't think of a single dead match).

Were/are you happy with 2 Jace?

You're right - the missing cards are Counterspells. I think Dimir Charm is definitely worth testing. As for your last disruption slot, I'd probably favor the 4th Force, assuming you have the blue to support it. If your meta has a lot of small creatures running around (or Sneak and Show, I guess), it's definitely worth testing. As for the 3rd Jace, I don't miss the 3rd copy at all and love Sylvan Library. In the midgame against creature-based decks, Sylvan/DRS can run away with the game by itself. In other matches it's powerful card selectivity, and against Miracles, 12 Post, and Lands (basically decks where your life total isn't usually under significant stress), I generally plow anywhere from 4-12 life into it to just draw cards. It's the best thing to be doing on turn 2, hands down. If you have DRS active, you can even Thoughtseize --> Sylvan on turn 2 (or hold up Spell Pierce if you're running it) to make sure it connects.

I'm currently testing 1-of Tombstalker in the MD Maelstrom Pulse slot. I moved the Pulse (which I added to since SCG Cincinnati) to the board over one of the Deeds to make room.

[anwei]

If your meta has a lot of small creatures running around (or Sneak and Show, I guess), it's definitely worth testing.

Counter half hits Show and Tell, the Miracles, Glimpse, N.O., Infernal Tutor / Burning Wish, Reanimate, Exhume, Time Spiral, Hymn.

[anwei]

(Sorry for double post.)
I played BUG control at a small (22) tournament and went 3-0-2 (IDs), won t8, lost t4 today, and liked my list well enough to share. I spent maybe 10-15 hours testing through a basic Legacy gauntlet with several different versions, starting with the 4 DRS, 4TNN, 3Strix, 1 Clique, 3/3 Walkers list that has been reasonable successful lately (which I ran at a smaller event last week and went 4-1). I eventually ended up with this 75:

3 U Sea
2 Trop
2 Bayou
2 Tar Pit
3 Wasteland
10 BUG Fetch

4 DRS
3 Goyf
3 TNN
2 Strix
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 JTMS
3 LotV

4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library

3 FoW
1 Spell Pierce
1 Dimir Charm

3 Thoughtseize
1 IoK
1 Hymn

3 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Toxic Deluge

Board (15)
1 FoW
2 Flusterstorm
1 Clique
1 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
1 Disfigure
2 Jitte
2 Null Rod
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger’s Cage

-No basics. I tried Island+Swamp some in testing, but most of my spells are so expensive that if I'm in Wasteland trouble, Island+Swamp isn't good enough anyway. Playing DNT was dreadful when they started porting. This means Moon is really good against me, of course, but I wasn't going to win through it with 2 basics anyway.
-Lots of redundant/similar 1 offs which are worse in duplicates but fine by themselves.
-The Goyfs provided a really solid clock against combo, and I liked having them. This ties into..

-Liliana: very good at most of what she does, but puts you in an awkward position as a UBx control deck, because your ideal scenario often means you're both hellbent but you have the advantage, which makes counterspells pretty awkward and situational spells (and there are lots) all worse. In testing, I often found myself stabilizing and taking half-control with a Liliana, looking like I had a reasonable advantage, and then losing lots of ground to a good top-deck. And meanwhile I'm pitching discard spells and Abrupt Decays to keep their hand empty. Hitting Lily+Jace is great, but Lily+ (say) Deathrite Shaman is not really good enough in many matches, and makes my deck-full-of-answers much worse, since I'm in topdeck mode too and grinding away can be real slow. Goyf was great here for ending the game. Library+Lily was insane, for floating a couple answers for when you need them. I had one game against UWR Delver, both in topdeck mode after Lily is bolted, with Library floating Decay+Pierce and got to perfectly plod through his drawn Batterskull by sequencing the answers perfectly. The biggest thing I wanted, in grindy matches, was the ability to float answers so that Lily's discard goes from advantageous to super-insane. I think SDT is probably the best way to do this (besides Jace), and I'll probably include 2 maindeck (over library and hymn).
Honestly, I think solving the Lily question better is the main thing this deck has to do. By analogy, the Delver/Tempo ideal is to land a Delver and then keep the game in the "early" game while you press them out. Stop their mana development so they play weak cards and soft counter the stuff they do have while your board-advantages takes it home. With Lily, you want to grind them down in the mid/late-game mode while everyone is hellbent. Jund sorta does this in the mid-game, where they leave you resource-constrained with discard->Lily, then use Bob for card advantage and get aggressive with stuff like Bolt and Elf. BUG probably has even better early disruption and even more powerful possible late-game, and TNN trashes a lot of the fair decks, but it has a somewhat hollow midgame if you don't already have TNN/Tar Pit, and it's too slow if it does. Not sure what else could go in there, but hoping to hit something useful before they hit running creatures or a way to deal with Lily isn't good enough, and I think that's a spot this deck can get into.

(Edit note: I realize the mid-game/Lily role might best be fit by Stoneforge Mystic, and that impulse just leads to Deathblade. That's entirely possible.)

[Barbed Blightning]

(Sorry for double post.)
I played BUG control at a small (22) tournament and went 3-0-2 (IDs), won t8, lost t4 today, and liked my list well enough to share. I spent maybe 10-15 hours testing through a basic Legacy gauntlet with several different versions, starting with the 4 DRS, 4TNN, 3Strix, 1 Clique, 3/3 Walkers list that has been reasonable successful lately (which I ran at a smaller event last week and went 4-1). I eventually ended up with this 75:

3 U Sea
2 Trop
2 Bayou
2 Tar Pit
3 Wasteland
10 BUG Fetch

4 DRS
3 Goyf
3 TNN
2 Strix
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 JTMS
3 LotV

4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library

3 FoW
1 Spell Pierce
1 Dimir Charm

3 Thoughtseize
1 IoK
1 Hymn

3 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Toxic Deluge

Board (15)
1 FoW
2 Flusterstorm
1 Clique
1 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
1 Disfigure
2 Jitte
2 Null Rod
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger’s Cage

-No basics. I tried Island+Swamp some in testing, but most of my spells are so expensive that if I'm in Wasteland trouble, Island+Swamp isn't good enough anyway. Playing DNT was dreadful when they started porting. This means Moon is really good against me, of course, but I wasn't going to win through it with 2 basics anyway.
-Lots of redundant/similar 1 offs which are worse in duplicates but fine by themselves.
-The Goyfs provided a really solid clock against combo, and I liked having them. This ties into..

-Liliana: very good at most of what she does, but puts you in an awkward position as a UBx control deck, because your ideal scenario often means you're both hellbent but you have the advantage, which makes counterspells pretty awkward and situational spells (and there are lots) all worse. In testing, I often found myself stabilizing and taking half-control with a Liliana, looking like I had a reasonable advantage, and then losing lots of ground to a good top-deck. And meanwhile I'm pitching discard spells and Abrupt Decays to keep their hand empty. Hitting Lily+Jace is great, but Lily+ (say) Deathrite Shaman is not really good enough in many matches, and makes my deck-full-of-answers much worse, since I'm in topdeck mode too and grinding away can be real slow. Goyf was great here for ending the game. Library+Lily was insane, for floating a couple answers for when you need them. I had one game against UWR Delver, both in topdeck mode after Lily is bolted, with Library floating Decay+Pierce and got to perfectly plod through his drawn Batterskull by sequencing the answers perfectly. The biggest thing I wanted, in grindy matches, was the ability to float answers so that Lily's discard goes from advantageous to super-insane. I think SDT is probably the best way to do this (besides Jace), and I'll probably include 2 maindeck (over library and hymn).
Honestly, I think solving the Lily question better is the main thing this deck has to do. By analogy, the Delver/Tempo ideal is to land a Delver and then keep the game in the "early" game while you press them out. Stop their mana development so they play weak cards and soft counter the stuff they do have while your board-advantages takes it home. With Lily, you want to grind them down in the mid/late-game mode while everyone is hellbent. Jund sorta does this in the mid-game, where they leave you resource-constrained with discard->Lily, then use Bob for card advantage and get aggressive with stuff like Bolt and Elf. BUG probably has even better early disruption and even more powerful possible late-game, and TNN trashes a lot of the fair decks, but it has a somewhat hollow midgame if you don't already have TNN/Tar Pit, and it's too slow if it does. Not sure what else could go in there, but hoping to hit something useful before they hit running creatures or a way to deal with Lily isn't good enough, and I think that's a spot this deck can get into.
It took me a second to realize that you weren't running Leyline of the Void in your main. :) cool list, still would like to see some basics.

[btm10]

(Sorry for double post.)
I played BUG control at a small (22) tournament and went 3-0-2 (IDs), won t8, lost t4 today, and liked my list well enough to share. I spent maybe 10-15 hours testing through a basic Legacy gauntlet with several different versions, starting with the 4 DRS, 4TNN, 3Strix, 1 Clique, 3/3 Walkers list that has been reasonable successful lately (which I ran at a smaller event last week and went 4-1). I eventually ended up with this 75:

3 U Sea
2 Trop
2 Bayou
2 Tar Pit
3 Wasteland
10 BUG Fetch

4 DRS
3 Goyf
3 TNN
2 Strix
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 JTMS
3 LotV

4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library

3 FoW
1 Spell Pierce
1 Dimir Charm

3 Thoughtseize
1 IoK
1 Hymn

3 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Toxic Deluge

Board (15)
1 FoW
2 Flusterstorm
1 Clique
1 Thoughtseize
2 Golgari Charm
1 Disfigure
2 Jitte
2 Null Rod
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger’s Cage

-No basics. I tried Island+Swamp some in testing, but most of my spells are so expensive that if I'm in Wasteland trouble, Island+Swamp isn't good enough anyway. Playing DNT was dreadful when they started porting. This means Moon is really good against me, of course, but I wasn't going to win through it with 2 basics anyway.
-Lots of redundant/similar 1 offs which are worse in duplicates but fine by themselves.
-The Goyfs provided a really solid clock against combo, and I liked having them. This ties into..

-Liliana: very good at most of what she does, but puts you in an awkward position as a UBx control deck, because your ideal scenario often means you're both hellbent but you have the advantage, which makes counterspells pretty awkward and situational spells (and there are lots) all worse. In testing, I often found myself stabilizing and taking half-control with a Liliana, looking like I had a reasonable advantage, and then losing lots of ground to a good top-deck. And meanwhile I'm pitching discard spells and Abrupt Decays to keep their hand empty. Hitting Lily+Jace is great, but Lily+ (say) Deathrite Shaman is not really good enough in many matches, and makes my deck-full-of-answers much worse, since I'm in topdeck mode too and grinding away can be real slow. Goyf was great here for ending the game. Library+Lily was insane, for floating a couple answers for when you need them. I had one game against UWR Delver, both in topdeck mode after Lily is bolted, with Library floating Decay+Pierce and got to perfectly plod through his drawn Batterskull by sequencing the answers perfectly. The biggest thing I wanted, in grindy matches, was the ability to float answers so that Lily's discard goes from advantageous to super-insane. I think SDT is probably the best way to do this (besides Jace), and I'll probably include 2 maindeck (over library and hymn).
Honestly, I think solving the Lily question better is the main thing this deck has to do. By analogy, the Delver/Tempo ideal is to land a Delver and then keep the game in the "early" game while you press them out. Stop their mana development so they play weak cards and soft counter the stuff they do have while your board-advantages takes it home. With Lily, you want to grind them down in the mid/late-game mode while everyone is hellbent. Jund sorta does this in the mid-game, where they leave you resource-constrained with discard->Lily, then use Bob for card advantage and get aggressive with stuff like Bolt and Elf. BUG probably has even better early disruption and even more powerful possible late-game, and TNN trashes a lot of the fair decks, but it has a somewhat hollow midgame if you don't already have TNN/Tar Pit, and it's too slow if it does. Not sure what else could go in there, but hoping to hit something useful before they hit running creatures or a way to deal with Lily isn't good enough, and I think that's a spot this deck can get into.

(Edit note: I realize the mid-game/Lily role might best be fit by Stoneforge Mystic, and that impulse just leads to Deathblade. That's entirely possible.)

First, congrats on your finish. I agree that some more basics would be better - I'm going to start testing a build of the deck with a manabase inspired by Miracles', and hopefully it doesn't just turn into Veteran Walkers.

On Liliana, the more I play this deck, the more I've come to think of her as one of the most difficult cards in the deck to use correctly. When I first started playing Shardless and BUG Delver, I'd be extremely aggressive with her +1 to make sure I had the -2 up as much as possible, and could angle for her ultimate. Lili + Sylvan or Lili + Jace is obviously great, but sometimes I've found that you really just want to do nothing. If you have her at 4 or 5 with 1 card in hand, it's very likely correct to just pass if you aren't being pressured by creatures or have a TNN or Tar Pit offense going. Under most circumstances, I only go hellbent if my opponent is also hellbent and I'm not threatened by a single topdeck (against Storm, for instance) or if any threat they do topdeck is answered by either her -2 or my board (for example, if my opponent can topdeck a Jace and I have a TNN or Tar Pit out, +1 is probably a fine line). Early on, before you're hellbent, being able to look at your opponent's hand with Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek can be invaluable in knowing which ability (if any) to use.

I did some similar gauntlet testing to what you did with Dimir Charm and it was really good in the Spell Pierce Slot. I use it as a removal spell most often, but the counter option is nice as well, if a little narrow. I think some of your colored mana problems (when you were trying basics) might have been from the Tarmogoyfs - going from 5 spells for which you need G to 9, so it's less a green splash for Decay, Sylvan and DRS's G ability, and more a full third color. How did the Goyfs feel vs. non-combo decks? I totally get the need for a clock in those matchups, especially Sneak and Show, but do did you ever find yourself awkwardly positioned against Delver or D&T in making their removal spells into good draws they otherwise wouldn't have been? And if you end up liking Top over Library in testing, will you also give Counterbalance a try? And how was the Snap?

[anwei]

On Liliana, the more I play this deck, the more I've come to think of her as one of the most difficult cards in the deck to use correctly. When I first started playing Shardless and BUG Delver, I'd be extremely aggressive with her +1 to make sure I had the -2 up as much as possible, and could angle for her ultimate. Lili + Sylvan or Lili + Jace is obviously great, but sometimes I've found that you really just want to do nothing.

Yes, certainly, and I did this a lot. But a huge swath of the deck is 1-for-1 grinding them out of options until the planeswalkers take over, and in those positions, it's not hard to end up in the draw, play my land or guy, +1 mode. Discard is usually moot here, so you +1. What about Spell Pierce or Decay or Deluge or Force? If they are holding BBE and can't cast it on 3 lands, you're going to be sad soon, and leaving them with 1 in hand gives them a lot of draws to find the 4th land. Sometimes it's certainly correct to not use her, but you often have to, and building a deck with tons of attrition into 3 Lily needs to believe that it's going to draw into something powerful enough to justify this sooner than they are. (This is more true against, e.g., Delver decks than against something like Shardless or Deathblade that can hit planeswalkers just like you, or even Storm, when they can slowly cast artifact mana into Tutor/PiF/AdNaus.) Floating relevant spells that you can access at instant speed, selection in your topdecks, and cards like Goyf that try to wrap things up asap are very good in this position.




I did some similar gauntlet testing to what you did with Dimir Charm and it was really good in the Spell Pierce Slot. I use it as a removal spell most often, but the counter option is nice as well, if a little narrow.

Yea, I really like it as the 6th removal spell. We're mostly already consigned, unfortunately, to powerful 2-mana removal spells over cards like Disfigure and Dismember, so it's on pace with the 2nd Edict or 4th Decay in that regard, but is also blue (and FoW count is a constant issue when boarding against many decks, since we have so much disruption in black) and very relevant as a counterspell. I actually used the fateseal mode a couple times to feed Shaman and/or add a turn of topdeck lock as well. I wouldn't want 2, but 1 was nice.



I think some of your colored mana problems (when you were trying basics) might have been from the Tarmogoyfs - going from 5 spells for which you need G to 9, so it's less a green splash for Decay, Sylvan and DRS's G ability, and more a full third color.

I did more testing and played a previous event without Goyfs, to the same conclusion. Forest was not really an option, so I played with Island and Swamp among 23 lands, and it was way too greedy (in a deck with this many colors, basics are greedy, not duals). Against decks playing 4+ Wasteland effects (Stifle, Loam, Port, etc.), you can't function off 2 lands anyway - you can't cast any of your best cards. So say you fetched basics and have a 3rd land of your choice: what do you want? BG for Charm/Decay, BB for Lily, UU for TNN, but that's impossible. Decay+Charm in one turn is impossible. Discard+Lily is impossible. Leaving up DRS mana severely restricts your other options. When testing against DnT or Rug Delver, with basics in my deck, things went much better when fetching out duals anyway.
Blood Moon already kills you. If you play Forest (bad), fetched out B/G early, are holding Decay, don't have Force, it lets you tap out to cast stuff and not fear it. I've never played a Blood Moon deck where things went like that. So instead, you get T1 moon'd and you have 2 basics somewhere in your deck and they have 35 turns to kill you. If you have discard/force/DRS, you're potentially in the game, but basics aren't getting you much closer. Like calculating your outs to a resolved Show and Tell, the goal (in this deck) is to just not get yourself in that situation in the first place, and then don't commit too many costly deckbuilding decisions to dealing with that situation.
Price of Progress is not good. That's a card I prefer not to eat off the top, in the Lily game. I think I Sylvan'd from 7 to 3 in one game to take my 5th land and Force, then didn't +1 Lily, to keep Force. Basics would be better in that match, and you might lose some games to Price, but I don't think that's worth it.



How did the Goyfs feel vs. non-combo decks? I totally get the need for a clock in those matchups, especially Sneak and Show, but do did you ever find yourself awkwardly positioned against Delver or D&T in making their removal spells into good draws they otherwise wouldn't have been? And if you end up liking Top over Library in testing, will you also give Counterbalance a try? And how was the Snap?
Goyf was better than expected, primarily because of the aforementioned Lily standoffs. Sure, they can topdeck Swords/Decay/RiP, but Decay was already good if Lily is out, and they only have like 3-4 turns to find one. Plus, Delver/DnT removal is already good against DRS/Strix, both of which can cold a lot of their strategy, so it's not like they were that bad.
Probably won't try Counterbalance, though it does provide an on-board solution to topdecks - if I dropped the Goyfs, it might not be a bad boarded option, in for removal, for games where I feared their topdecks more. The challenge of Counterbalance is usually addressing the board, so the removal has to stay in or increase in speed/power against fair decks, which means it's filing the role of discard in what the deck needs to deal with, even if discard+CB have a midgame synergy (as CB shores up the weakness of discard, i.e., topdecking). At that point, Counterbalance can fully replace Lily as a mid-/late-game denial engine, black becomes white for faster/more powerful removal, and we're headed toward miracles.

[btm10]

Thanks for responding. I'm not sure I agree - I think that once you've dropped the basics and countermagic and added Goyf you're better off playing Shardless for the explosiveness, and even then you're running basics. On the Top point, I think Sylvan is better because it's better against combo, midrange, and in the control mirror and isn't worse against tempo. I think Counterbalance is a better addition to the deck than Tarmogoyf if we're running Top because CB/Top lock plays better with what we're trying to achieve.

One thing I definitely agree with is the need for more direct card drawing and that basics are somewhat greedy. That being said, I still think that the basic lands are correct. I've lost far more games to RUG and Death and Taxes brcause I failed to reach 4 mana than because I was unable to get UU or BB because I had fetched basics. In fact, I think that with 1 Island, 1 Swamp, RUG is a pretty favorable matchup, and has improved after testing a Wasteland-less 2 Island, 2 Swamp, 1 Forest configuration. I simply won't play without either Deed or Dread of Night in the board against D&T. On card drawing, I'm going to find room for 2 Fact or Fiction. To ease the mana requirements I've started testing Mana Leak over Counterspell. It seems good, but I'm not convinced yet.

Finally, if Marc Meyer reads this thread, I'd love to see a report and thoughts on the deck.

[anwei]

Thanks for responding. I'm not sure I agree - I think that once you've dropped the basics and countermagic and added Goyf you're better off playing Shardless for the explosiveness, and even then you're running basics. On the Top point, I think Sylvan is better because it's better against combo, midrange, and in the control mirror and isn't worse against tempo. I think Counterbalance is a better addition to the deck than Tarmogoyf if we're running Top because CB/Top lock plays better with what we're trying to achieve.

One thing I definitely agree with is the need for more direct card drawing and that basics are somewhat greedy. That being said, I still think that the basic lands are correct. I've lost far more games to RUG and Death and Taxes brcause I failed to reach 4 mana than because I was unable to get UU or BB because I had fetched basics. In fact, I think that with 1 Island, 1 Swamp, RUG is a pretty favorable matchup, and has improved after testing a Wasteland-less 2 Island, 2 Swamp, 1 Forest configuration. I simply won't play without either Deed or Dread of Night in the board agaijst D&T. On card drawing, I'm going to find room for 2 Fact or Fiction. To ease the mana requirements I've started testing Mana Leak over Counterspell. It seems good, but I'm not convinced yet.

Finally, if Marc Meyer reads this thread, I'd love to see a report and thoughts on the deck.

(Typing on an iPad - I should preface saying that if I sound to-the-point, I'm not trying to be antagonistic, im just trying to respond and explain my thinking. I love this medium for getting lots of input flowing.)
The lists modeled after Phimus' are nearly-uniformly running 0 basics and only FoW as a maindeck counter - you can debate those merits, but that's not exactly my getting crazy or anything. The burden of breaking form with results is on playing any basics, since most lists don't. I do agree that losing to wasteland happens more from not reaching 4 mana than getting the right colors, but running 2 basics doesn't do anything about getting you to 4 mana if you're actually casting spells (and not just sitting on UB until you crack your fetches).

Bug delver is undoubtedly a better aggressive Goyf deck (not sure about shardless as explosive; it's differently-grindy), but I'm not playing goyf as an aggressive creature. He's there as a combo clock, but mainly as a mid-game quick-action card. Sylvan Library is often better at quick card advantage or at mana conservancy, but i want to try top (not sure I'd end up with it) for a different reason: to aggressively find answers when needed - either through spin, draw, spin, fetch, spin, or by flipping to get a counter at instant speed when hellbent.

Maybe to restate on cb: I do think it's more what we're trying to do than goyf, but I think we have enough of that, and there's no room for more, especially as board-impotent as counterbalance. That suggestion definitely had me thinking about how I would build a lily-counterbalance deck, but I don't think this is it.

[btm10]

(Typing on an iPad - I should preface saying that if I sound to-the-point, I'm not trying to be antagonistic, im just trying to respond and explain my thinking. I love this medium for getting lots of input flowing.)


I don't think that you're being antagonistic at all, and agree that these discussions are exactly what the forums are for. I'm doing the same thing, I hope. Also, this was written over the course of several hours when I had a moment to pound out a sentence, so I hope it's coherent.



The lists modeled after Phimus' are nearly-uniformly running 0 basics and only FoW as a maindeck counter - you can debate those merits, but that's not exactly my getting crazy or anything. The burden of breaking form with results is on playing any basics, since most lists don't. I do agree that losing to wasteland happens more from not reaching 4 mana than getting the right colors, but running 2 basics doesn't do anything about getting you to 4 mana if you're actually casting spells (and not just sitting on UB until you crack your fetches).


I agree, and acknowledge that my approach is modified from what has been winning. It's one of the reasons I really hope that someone (Pimus, Mark, Steve, anyone else I've forgotten) who has done well with the deck large event can offer commentary. That being said, I've been extremely dissatisfied with both the all-nonbasics lists (my local has 2 Painter players in addition to people on RUG and Death and Taxes) and the all-discard plan. The former is a metagame call - my list can even fetch the basic forest - but I'll probably go back to it being a Bayou and maybe add the 9th fetch and 4th Sea, and accept losing to Painter. Really, RUG is relatively favorable without the basics already (they have a very hard time with TNN), but the basics do make it easier. D&T is just a nightmare without basics, though.

In the case of additional counters over additional discard - there have been a number of situations where I've Thoughtseized people only to see hands full of gas that can't be disrupted with pinpoint discard. In tempo matches Inquisition is great because it's just another 1-for-1 answer to their threats or their disruption, and the information is also helpful because it lets you know what you can throw away with Brainstorm or Liliana, what to dig for, and how much countermagic/discard they have. The same is (largely) true against other control decks or midrange decks. Against combo, however, I feel like we either need Hymn to put ourselves ahead or coutermagic to effectively X-for-1 them and buy additional turns because they invest a turn's worth of mana setting up the thing you ultimately counter. Hymn might be better here, but it's also dead in the late game, especially with Liliana. This is also why I'm running the fourth Force.



Bug delver is undoubtedly a better aggressive Goyf deck (not sure about shardless as explosive; it's differently-grindy), but I'm not playing goyf as an aggressive creature. He's there as a combo clock, but mainly as a mid-game quick-action card. Sylvan Library is often better at quick card advantage or at mana conservancy, but i want to try top (not sure I'd end up with it) for a different reason: to aggressively find answers when needed - either through spin, draw, spin, fetch, spin, or by flipping to get a counter at instant speed when hellbent.

Maybe to restate on cb: I do think it's more what we're trying to do than goyf, but I think we have enough of that, and there's no room for more, especially as board-impotent as counterbalance. That suggestion definitely had me thinking about how I would build a lily-counterbalance deck, but I don't think this is it.

Sorry if I restated what you had already responded to about Counterbalance. I think the larger point I was trying to make about basics, discard, Tarmogoyf, and Counterbalance is that BUG Control feels very hemmed in by related strategies: Delver is the aggro-control deck, Shardless is the grindy + huge bombs deck, and BUG Landstill at the super-controlling-probably-too-grindy-to-exist deck. Maybe it's because I've come to this deck from Shardless (and to Shardless from Delver), but I feel like the addition of an highly aggressive creature means running additional aggressive options, which are better facilitated by Shardless Agent or the Delver shell; I see this deck as a more aggressive BUG Landstill, not as Shardless BUG without Shardless Agent (if that makes sense). I agree that a Liliana-Counterbalance deck would be promising, but you're probably right in that this deck already has sufficiently demanding colored mana requirements that this isn't it. Top could be very good and I'm definitely interested in your results, although my current guess is that the mana requirements will end up being similar to those of 1-mana coutnermagic, which may prove too much to do every turn. But I'm definitely interested in what you find.

One thing I think I'm going to test (in addition to, but not at the same time as, Fact or Fiction) is MD equipment. I've been off and on with Jitte out of the board, but in a large, unknown meta it's probably correct, and I board it in a lot whenever I'm not playing in my local metagame. Finding 1-2 slots for a Sword and/or a Jitte main doesn't seem too bad, and Strix is usually an excellent equipment carrier. The fact that the equipment is colorless also solves the problem of additional threats/creatures being green (Tarmogoyf) or requiring double colored mana of one color (TNN and Tombstalker).

[anwei]

I've been extremely dissatisfied with both the all-nonbasics lists (my local has 2 Painter players in addition to people on RUG and Death and Taxes) and the all-discard plan. ... D&T is just a nightmare without basics, though.
Playing the Death and Taxes match-up is actually when I decided to drop the basics. Again, when you want 4+ mana with lots of colored requirements, 2 basics doesn't do enough, plays into their Ports.



In the case of additional counters over additional discard - there have been a number of situations where I've Thoughtseized people only to see hands full of gas that can't be disrupted with pinpoint discard. In tempo matches Inquisition is great because it's just another 1-for-1 answer to their threats or their disruption, and the information is also helpful because it lets you know what you can throw away with Brainstorm or Liliana, what to dig for, and how much countermagic/discard they have. The same is (largely) true against other control decks or midrange decks. Against combo, however, I feel like we either need Hymn to put ourselves ahead or coutermagic to effectively X-for-1 them and buy additional turns because they invest a turn's worth of mana setting up the thing you ultimately counter. Hymn might be better here, but it's also dead in the late game, especially with Liliana. This is also why I'm running the fourth Force.

Yea, I'm playing 5 counters and 1 Hymn, and definitely could see the 4th Force in many metas - I think it's fine, but that I still have a lot of T1 interaction (on the play) without it, and would rather minimize the 2-for-1 against fair decks when I have so many cards that trade with theirs.



Sorry if I restated what you had already responded to about Counterbalance. I think the larger point I was trying to make about basics, discard, Tarmogoyf, and Counterbalance is that BUG Control feels very hemmed in by related strategies: Delver is the aggro-control deck, Shardless is the grindy + huge bombs deck, and BUG Landstill at the super-controlling-probably-too-grindy-to-exist deck. Maybe it's because I've come to this deck from Shardless (and to Shardless from Delver), but I feel like the addition of an highly aggressive creature means running additional aggressive options, which are better facilitated by Shardless Agent or the Delver shell; I see this deck as a more aggressive BUG Landstill, not as Shardless BUG without Shardless Agent (if that makes sense).

I think it occupies the same general timing/position as BUG Landstill, but with a complementary strategy. Landstill wants to bide its time with a hand of responses as it Bloods/Deeds away their permanents. This deck wants to grind out everything they have, and still have TNN in play or an on-board edict ready for whatever. (I just flipped through recent BugStill lists and was surprised to find Lily-heavy lists, though they rarely run many counters, compared to the Jace-only lists.)
Goyf is like a 3-way split card that says: Give your combo opponent a 3-turn clock, force your aggro opponent to deal with a 4/5 wall, or dare your hellbent opponent to draw into something relevant before he dies. If there was a card that said "Discard your hand: opponent discards their hand; each player has a maximum hand size of 0", I would play Goyf in that deck. Way easier to answer Goyf than TNN, but when you're in that situation, Goyf makes them have it more quickly or lose. This deck is that imaginary card - pitch their hand, counter their spells, kill their stuff, then win. I like having Goyf in the "win" chapter. That is a different role than in Shardless, where early discard+pressure buys time to hit your second (Ancestral Visions) wind.



One thing I think I'm going to test (in addition to, but not at the same time as, Fact or Fiction) is MD equipment. I've been off and on with Jitte out of the board, but in a large, unknown meta it's probably correct, and I board it in a lot whenever I'm not playing in my local metagame. Finding 1-2 slots for a Sword and/or a Jitte main doesn't seem too bad, and Strix is usually an excellent equipment carrier. The fact that the equipment is colorless also solves the problem of additional threats/creatures being green (Tarmogoyf) or requiring double colored mana of one color (TNN and Tombstalker).
Yea, I like this a lot. I was boarding 2 Jittes and brought them in often (maybe too much), as it feels really unfair with TNN and, as you say, is great with Strix. In the terms of the argument I keep making, Jitte lets you store on-board answers when playing a top-deck war, *and* let's you win the game quickly (with any creature), and that's really strong.

[wwoning]

Coming from BUG Delver, I am now experimenting with this deck. I recognize very much the Liliana problem mentioned here before, wanting to use her +1, but only being able to do so by discarding all your answers. In BUG Delver it's MUCH easier to play her, for that matter.

Some solutions have been discussed, an idea that popped up with me: Could we not move to a version where we remove counters & spot removal and go to more discard (4 Hymn, 4 Thoughtseize, to at least have a small chance against combo G1) and Deeds? It could look something like this I guess:

23 LANDS
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
2 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta

12 CREATURES
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 True-Name Nemesis (could also be Goyfs since we are aiming for emptying their hand)
4 Baleful Strix

14 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Brainstorm
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Abrupt Decay

11 OTHER SPELLS
3/4 Liliana of the Veil
3/4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Pernicious Deed


Another option would be replacing the Liliana's. Can we not go back to Snapcasters? There is a lot of good stuff to flash back. Are there any other BUG 3 mana planeswalkers that could replace her?

I'm pretty new to the deck, so forgive me if I'm saying silly things. I think the deck has a lot of potential, so I would like to discuss!

[anwei]

Coming from BUG Delver, I am now experimenting with this deck. I recognize very much the Liliana problem mentioned here before, wanting to use her +1, but only being able to do so by discarding all your answers. In BUG Delver it's MUCH easier to play her, for that matter.

Some solutions have been discussed, an idea that popped up with me: Could we not move to a version where we remove counters & spot removal and go to more discard (4 Hymn, 4 Thoughtseize, to at least have a small chance against combo G1) and Deeds? It could look something like this I guess:

...

Another option would be replacing the Liliana's. Can we not go back to Snapcasters? There is a lot of good stuff to flash back. Are there any other BUG 3 mana planeswalkers that could replace her?

I'm pretty new to the deck, so forgive me if I'm saying silly things. I think the deck has a lot of potential, so I would like to discuss!

To qualify the Liliana "problem," she's one of the best cards in the deck, and being in the position where they're hellbent with no board and way to gain momentum and you have on-board removal is awesome: you're a big favorite to win. It has the unfortunate side effect of making many of the grindy, one-for-one cards that got you here (targetted discard, removal, counters) much worse going forward, as you can draw dead "answers" while you're looking for a better/faster way to end the game (probably Jace, TNN/Tar Pit, DRS, Strix, in that order). Those are all pretty reasonable, but it'd be nice to further minimize their ability to play through that situation. That's what I'd want from Goyf/SDT/Counterbalance, in different ways and different decks. But that's the arc: Step 1 Grind Down (Thoughtseize, Abrupt Decay), Step 2 Liliana has them under her thumb, Step 3 Finishing. Goyf/Jace/TNN/Tar Pit are good in Step 3, and if you're fast enough (Goyf), they can't ge tout. SDT is a candidate for a better Step 2, as floated answers make your Lily soft lock even better (so something like Lingering Souls doesn't ruin your day).

So on your specific suggestions:
-I would not want to cut counters/removal for the reason that they're bad "Step 2" topdecks - they're the cards that get you to Step 2. You have to be able to answer the stuff they're trying to do, or you're dead before you get to your mid-game.
-Deed is really slow, and requires a lot of deck-building constraint to not make your stuff bad. The two decks that use it well sort of show this: Nic Fit can power into the mana cost off explorers, while playing expensive enough cards to dodge its effect; Bugstill plays hyper-efficient answers to what they're doing (Innocent Blood, Spell Snare), which draw out the game (along with Standstill) until they have Deed available. It's not a terrible option in the abstract, or as a versatile answer, but it can't bear the weight of being your main removal option. Delver decks will eat you.

[btm10]

I think anwei's statements are correct. I've used Deed only to combat particular local metas; if you expect a lot of Painter and Death and Taxes it's fine. Otherwise it's too expensive. So after testing a small gauntlet (3 games preboard, 3 post) against Death and Taxes, Deathblade, BUG and RUG Delvers, and ANT, this is what I'm working with

Land (23)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
3 Wasteland
3 Creeping Tar Pit

Creatures (9)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique

Library Manipulation (6)
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Fact or Fiction

Disruption/Answers (17)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Dimir Charm
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

Planeswalkers (5)
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard (15)

2 Null Rod
1 Krosan Grip
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Spell Pierce
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Umezawa's Jitte


I initially tested the equipment main like I mentioned earlier in about 5 matches online. If you connect with TNN + equpiment, it's just as good as it is in Blade decks (i.e., you generally just win). The downside is that if you only have equipment + DRS you end up in a lot of awkward situations where you need the utility options on DRS but also want Jitte counters or Sword triggers (I tried Fire and Ice because it could serve a creature removal function and draws cards). I found myself boarding Sword out in almost every match (I left it in against BUG Delver), and against too many decks Jitte was just taking up mana to play and equip, thus delaying other plays, and there were times that I had to set up Jitte + TNN as removal where the 4th Decay or another removal spell would've cost half as much. In short: Jitte is so busted in some matchups that you want to run it in the board for those matchups (Elves, Death and Taxes), but it's often too expensive to make the cut in other matchups, so it leaves the main. I still wanted to try Fact or Fiction, and initially just swapped the equipment for FoF and a singleton Deluge that I had been meaning to try. The Deluge was even better than I expected, and I'm currently pretty happy with Fact as well. Deluge obviously doesn't play well with Strix, so I dropped the Strixes and added another Deluge and returned the deck otherwise to the original configuration. I almost dropped the second Edict for a more flexible piece of disruption like a second Dimir Charm, second maindeck Inquisition of Kozilek, or a counter of some sort, but without Strix you want the spot removal at 2 mana. I'm going to play in my local 4-5 round event with this list this week and post my results. I think this is a promising direction, but I'm not totally sold on it yet.

[wwoning]

Thanks guys for the replies. Played the deck in a (37 man) tournament yesterday for the first time and ended up 8th, just making top 8. Unfortunately I lost to the number 1 seed, some super duper RUG player who always makes top 8 there.

I was very, very satisfied with the deck. I won to Elves (wow, that Charm and Deluge are blowouts!), Nic Fit, Food Chain (close one) and Jund. Lost to Instant Reanimator and Deathblade. These 2 did not at all feel unwinnable though.

The plan worked exactly like you describe anwei. Even if you dont have your DRS/Thoughtseize, it's easy to just play fetch and say go for the first two turns. Abrupt Decay & Edict clear the threats ans Strix is a bomb to get to the mid game. What a great card that is.

I did not end up in a lot of Liliana trouble fortunately. Had 1 or 2 games where both Jace and Lili landed, that's GG. But most of the time even TNN and Tar Pit + some DRS activation were enough to seal the deal after some initial disrupting.

For reference:

23 LANDS
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
2 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta

12 CREATURES
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 True-Name Nemesis
3 Baleful Strix
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Tarmogoyf

19 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Spell Pierce

6 OTHER SPELLS
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sylvan Library

15 SIDEBOARD

1 Envelop
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
1 Spell Pierce
2 Golgari Charm
1 Flusterstorm
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Counterspell
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Moving forward I will not change too much. Didn't see too much combo, so I will swap the mainboard Spell Pierce with the SB Maelstrom Pulse. I will also add another Goyf, maybe at the expense of Sylvan Library. We already have so much ways to draw and filter, I didn't miss it if I didnt have it.

Looking forward to your report btm!

[btm10]

I went 4-1 last night to finish second in our local event - 19 people showed, giving us 5 rounds of Swiss with prizes going down to 5th place. Some last minute testing coupled with pre-tournament discussions and observations of which decks showed up crystallized a few problems I had been having with the sideboard, so that is substantially revised from the list I posted. My final 75 was:

Lands (22)

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Wasteland
2 Bayou

Creatures (9)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique

Disruption/Answers (18)

4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Dimir Charm

Draw/Manipulation (6)

4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Fact or Fiction

Planeswalkers (5)

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard (15)
1 Sylvan Library
2 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Golgari Charm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

This sideboard is deliberately skewed toward beating combo, midrange, and other control decks while being a little more susceptible to tempo. This plan worked out well as I'll detail below, especially Pithing Needle and the extra Sylvan Library.

Round 1: Oliver with Jund-Pox-Depths

I'm not sure of the proper name of this deck, but it's a very, very bad matchup. He wins the die roll and opens Fetch, Mox Diamond pitching another fetch leading me to put him on a Lands variant. I play a land and Thoughtseize and see Entomb, Smallpox, Abrupt Decay, Wasteland, Verdant Catacombs. I likely misplay by taking Smallpox instead of Entomb, but this line either slowed him down a turn in terms of developing his board (if he wasted me) or kept my land around (if he didn't) and it also saved me a card in hand. He EOT Entombs a Life from the Loam, dredges it on his draw step, fetches a Bayou, then Loams back the fetches. I topdeck a DRS but he dies to Decay and I get Wasteland/Loam locked. Force gives some counterplay here, but my TNN shows up too late and gets Liliana'ed before he can make a difference. Game two played out similarly, with Raven's Crime + Life from the Loam doing an excellent Mind Twist impersonation (I got hit for 2 on his turn 1, 3 on his turn 2, and was in topdeck mode after that). I did manage to Needle Wasteland on turn 1, but it didn't matter.

Sideboarding

Out: 2 Toxic Deluge, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Dimir Charm, 1 Vendillion Clique
In: 2 Pithing Needle, 1 Nihil Spellbomb, 1 Surgical Extraction, 2 Hymn to Tourach

(0-1 Matches, 0-2 Games)

Round 2: Bye (1-1 Matches, 0-2 Games)

Round 3: Paul with Burn

I lose the die roll, mull to 6, and he promptly suspends Rift Bolt. Turn 1 Thoughtseize shows Lava Spike, Bolt, Chain, and a Goblin Guide. My hand has Decay for the Guide so I let him play it and take a Bolt. I take 3 from Rift Bolt, then he drops Goblin Guide and swings, rewarding me for being stingy by giving me a Trop. I let Guide swing in one more time so I can Thoughtseize the Chain while holding up Brainstorm to drop another land on top. The Brainstorm gives me a TNN, Force, and DRS to go along with the Liliana in my hand. I throw back a Sea and put Lili underneath, then he Spikes me down to 5. I drop DRS and pass holding up Force, let Guide trigger one more time and kill it with Decay before damage. I get Bolted down to 2 life, but Lili comes down next turn and starts to take over while a TNN goes to work on him. This ends up being too much for him as both Eidolon of the Great Revel and Price of Progress go down to Liliana and Force of Will, respectively, while DRS chows down on his dead Goblin Guides and Eidolon and I find Sylvan, then Jace to keep guys going to my graveyard for Deathrite to keep me alive. I eke out a win a 3 life. Game 2 I mulligan to 5 and can't answer the triple Goblin Guide opener. Game 3 I keep 7 that includes 3 lands, Inquisition, Force, Spell Pierce, Jace, and Liliana. I open Sea, Inquisition and take Price, then get Bolted. I topdeck Hymn and hit a Price of Progress and a Eidolon, then pass back. My notes are a little sketchy on what I took damage from at this point, but I know he REBs a TNN and I eventually land a Jace and a Liliana, stabilizing at 8 life. Lili leaves him in topdeck mode and Jace starts fatesealing him immediately. I Brainstorm into Sylvan Library, which keeps my hand full of answers to the most dangerous spells. I bottom a Price of Progress and he draws into Fireblast instead, but he scoops to Jace at 13 when I counter the Fireblast.


Sideboarding

Out: 2 Toxic Deluge, 4 Thoughtseize,
In: 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Inquisition of Kozilek, 1 Sylvan Library, 2 Hymn to Tourach

(2-1 Matches, 2-3 Games)

Round 4: Nick with Sneak and Show

Game 1 I mull into absolute oblivion (my 7 was 7 lands, my 6 had no lands, my 5 had Jace, 2 Liliana, Abrupt Decay, Wasteland, I kept 4 with Catacombs, DRS, Brainstorm, Thoughtseize) and get Blood Moon'ed out on turn 3 or 4. Game 2 I keep a very strong seven that lets me turn 1 DRS while holding up Force into turn 2 Hymn while holding up Spell Pierce. The Hymn hits his second land and a Blood Moon. He proceeds to Ponder and pass back without making a Land drop. I drop Liliana and go to work, with her eventually being joined by a TNN and a Sylvan Library before he finds a second land. A second Hymn hits two copies of Emrakul after he found land, but the card advantage from Sylvan was just too much. He tried a late Show and Tell that I countered the turn before TNN killed him. Game three played out similarly, with me keeping a hand of 3 lands, double Force, Brainstorm, Thoughtseize. I topdeck a TNN and turn 1 Thoughtseize taking Griselbrand from a hand of Show and Tell, Show and Tell, Sneak Attack, Ancient Tomb (he played Island, Ponder on turn 1 and attempted to Force my TS, leading me to Force back). He plays Mountain and passes. We play draw-go for a while, and I eventually get Sylvan Library out again. I pay a total of 8 life to it over the course of the game and end up eating his Griselbrand as a preventative measure, but it wasn't relevant in the end. He never resolves anything of significance (I float BG to end-of-main-phase Decay a Blood Moon and let him tap out for Sneak Attack that I have a Pithing Needle for) before TNN gets there.


Sideboarding

Out: 2 Toxic Deluge, 1 Abrupt Decay, 2 Inquisition of Kozilek, 1 Wasteland
In: 2 Pithing Needle, 2 Spell Pierce, 2 Hymn to Tourach

(3-1 Matches, 4-4 Games)

Round 5: Will with UG Post

These are very grindy games which worried me initially, but it seems that the matchup is just generally favorable. He blind Needles Wasteland on turn 1 in all three games. I lost 2 life to fetches in game 1 and start draining with DRS at one point. A TNN showed up with him at 15 life and went the rest of the way with Deathrite. Game 2 goes on for a very long time (25-30 minutes), but I'm firmly in control with Jace, Liliana and Sylvan all going. He ends up at 27 life, so I was on the Fateseal plan after Needling his Tops. He's hellbent, but Fact or Fiction and Sylvan Library keep my hand full. I tick Jace up to 9, bottoming Eye of Ugin in the process. He drops Oracle of Mul-Daya and passes back, I Edict Oracle with Liliana and bottom an Expedition Map, ticking Jace up to 11. He topdecks and hardcasts Emrakul, then topdecks Primeval Titan on his extra turn, and kills me. We have 6 minutes to play game 3, and I mull into an aggressive 5 cards of 2 Lands, DRS, 2 TNN. I get there in 4 minutes because he didn't Needle the Deathrite.

Sideboarding

Out: 2 Inquisition of Kozilek, 1 something else, 2 Toxic Deluge
In: 2 Hymn to Tourach, 1 Krosan Grip, 1 Abrupt Decay, 1 Sylvan Library, 1 Maelstrom Pulse

Overall Record: 4-1 matches, 6-5 games

I was very happy with the list. I couldn't fathom dropping Sylvan Library because it's just such a house. I might drop Fact or Fiction and add the second MD Library, the add an additional disruption spell to the board. I wish I had played a real creature matchup so I could get a feel for Deluge, but I still can't imagine many situations where I'd draw it and say "man, I really with that was Baleful Strix" except in game 1s against Storm when Strix is an easy blue card to pitch to Force. Dimir Charm may have been too cute, but it got the job done. Spell Pierce or Mana Leak would probably be just as good in that slot overall, especially if I was going with the plan of swapping FoF for the second Library and add a creature removal spell to the board. That being said, Fact was never bad, it was just not as good at generating card advantage as Sylvan because only Burn really pressured my life total. Fact has been very good against Deathblade and Delver strategies in my other testing, where it's harder to pay life to Sylvan to draw the cards. The Jund Depths matchup aside, this deck is the real deal.

[btm10]

Sorry to double-post, but I wanted to say that I think Fact or Fiction is just win-more. It's great against Miracles and in other grindy matchups, but those are pretty good already. I'm going to go with a Negate in that slot, or maybe an MD Spell Pierce or another Inquisition of Kozilek. I'm also sort of ambivalent about Dimir Charm; not being able to kill a flipped Delver might be too much of a liability to make up for the versatility. I'm going to keep with it for a little longer, but it could easily become any of the above cards, or another removal spell like Diabolic Edict #3 or Dismember.

[wwoning]

I'll give the deck another spin at a small tournament here in the Netherlands coming saturday. I'll try to keep notes (very bad at that) and report back!

EDIT: @btm, why not go with a good ol' counterspell instead of the Negate? We have to aim at t2, 3 or 4 double blue anyway for TNN and Jace.

[Bobmans]

I'll give the deck another spin at a small tournament here in the Netherlands coming saturday. I'll try to keep notes (very bad at that) and report back!

EDIT: @btm, why not go with a good ol' counterspell instead of the Negate? We have to aim at t2, 3 or 4 double blue anyway for TNN and Jace.

At least i know what i'm up against coming Saturday ;-)
I am also working on this deck. Just waiting for a couple of cards to arrive at the mail. But i am a bit torn wether to go CounterTop or not...

[wwoning]

At least i know what i'm up against coming Saturday ;-)

You're welcome Bob ;-) Although we are thinking about just playing some Legacy in the park, since this place is an oven and 30+ degrees is expected... :-\

On topic, the deck is great, you should definitely give it a try! Please test CounterTop and let us know how it worked out!

[Ralf]

Hello everyone,

Since I saw some of you talking about a heavy walkers BUG Midrange/Controlish version, I felt I could also post my list here (as in the NicFit thread).
I know I am on the explorer/cabal bandwagon but there is a lot belonging to a flat BUG Control.
All this deck is about value and virtual card advantage.

I got to play a sanctioned event with my heavy planeswalker BUG list and reached 4th on a 6 swiss rounds tournament (30+ players) without top 8.
Here is a quick report and my list:

Lands
1 Polluted Delta
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs

Creatures:
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
2 Baleful Strix
4 Veteran Explorer

Planeswalkers
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Vraska the Unseen
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil

Artefact
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Enchantment
3 Pernicious Deed

Spells
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Negate
4 Brainstorm
1 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy

SB: 2 Deathrite Shaman
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Negate

Round 1 Draw 1-1 against High Tide

Game 1, I sac'ed an explorer early game and ended up giving him too many island so he could go off turn 3...
Game 2, extirpate on tide & time spiral got me there.
Game 3, I had the game under control but we went to time :-(

Round 2 Lost 1-2 against Show & Tell

Game 1, I had to mull to 5 and the game was pretty over after a turn 2 S&T into Emrakul
Game 2, He mulled to 6 and I ripped his S&T and flashback it for sneak attack. a Jace and a Vraska came down to seal the deal.
Game 3, I was screwed by a blood moon by turn 2 which prevented me from playing my negate to counter his S&T on turn 3. Like a champion I drew into Liliana but got forced :-(

Round 3 Win 2-1 against BUG control

Game 1, My Jace came after a pernicious deed and was enough to seal the deal.
Game 2, Got mana screwed and lost pretty quickly to double goyfs...
Game 3, I taught my opponent that Vraska > Jace :D

Round 4 Win 2-0 against Junk (no Kotr just lingering souls)

Game 1, Jace and Liliana sealed the deal after a pernicious
Game 2, Same as above

Round 5 Win 2-0 against Miracle (legend version)

Game 1, double pernicious on board with an unanswered Jace got me there
Game 2, Very long game where Liliana got countered and I was toying with vraska and ashiok and my opponent with Clique and Venser (with karakas). Finally I got rid of Clique thanks to Abrupt decay and he managed to kill Vraska, but Ashiok got me there. Eventually, my opponent scooped with 3 cards left in his library...

Round 6 Win 2-1 against Pikula splash red (for blood moon and bolt MD)

Game 1, I kept a very slow hand with liliana, Jace, Vraska and got stomped.
Game 2, Liliana and Jace got me there
Game 3, he scooped to a resolved Ashiok facing an empty board (which will be followed up with a Jace by next turn)

To sum up, the list was a pure blast to play. Vraska is a monster in terms of stalling games where Liliana/Jace would fail. I killed twice with Vraska's ulti. Ashiok was interesting all day long and could be considered as the 4th Liliana. I like his +2 and the fact that it could kill where Lili just cannot.
I think the SB has to be improved a bit against combo (maybe goyf).
I used it only twice during this tournament (Game 1 & 2) and kept the same 60 for the rest of the tournament.
It crushed fair.decks so hard and struggled a bit against combo.decks. Not that I cannot win, but it is rather long and could end up on a draw (like against Spiral Tide)

Thanks for reading.

Happy to discuss.

Ps: Went home with a Taiga for my efforts !

[Bobmans]

....
Happy to discuss.
Ps: Went home with a Taiga for my efforts !

Niceeee list, grats on the dual.

So was the GSZ plus creature package any usefull?
Did you have any thought on Kiora, the Crashing Wave and/or Karn Liberated over Vraska?
Did you ever got to abuse Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver -X ability?
I could see Counterbalance instead of Negate, did you considered those?
Same goes for Innocent Blood.
I could see tweaking the list a bit to go fully on you walkers. Perhaps a bit like that McDarby list.

Cheers.

[btm10]

I'll give the deck another spin at a small tournament here in the Netherlands coming saturday. I'll try to keep notes (very bad at that) and report back!

EDIT: @btm, why not go with a good ol' counterspell instead of the Negate? We have to aim at t2, 3 or 4 double blue anyway for TNN and Jace.

Good luck! I've run 2 Counterspells maindeck before, and they were very good. The list I was on at the time is here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23429-Deck-Team-America-(Midrange-Control-Thread)/page43). At the time I was running a basic Island and basic Swamp, which made holding up UU a little easier, even if it made getting Gx a little harder. Even then, there were times when I was fine holding up Ux on my opponent's turn, but where not using UU (or UG, or UB, or BG...) definitely slowed down my development. Holding up UU can also force you to take unnecessary damage by having to wait until your opponent's EOT to cast Decay or Edict instead of doing it precombat. These situations may sound like corner cases, but they come up a few times in every tournament I play in. I definitely think that the stock lists with 3 Force and no other hard counters main are wrong, but UU is too clunky for a counterspell in the current meta. It also makes you more vulnerable to Wasteland by increasing your double colored count. I think Mana Leak, Spell Pierce, and Negate are the strongest contenders for this slot right now.

Either way, I look forward to your report.

On the BUG/Veteran Walkers lists - I think the overall Nic Fit plan is neat and great if yoy're going to play against Delver and midrange decks all day. However, I have also found that those strategies are needlessly soft to even slow combo while being only slightly stronger in some of the grindy matchups. I think the Planeswalker overload plan is cute, but ultimately inferior to just killing your opponent with TNN, Tar Pit, or Jace once you've consolidated your position.

[Ralf]

On the BUG/Veteran Walkers lists - I think the overall Nic Fit plan is neat and great if yoy're going to play against Delver and midrange decks all day. However, I have also found that those strategies are needlessly soft to even slow combo while being only slightly stronger in some of the grindy matchups. I think the Planeswalker overload plan is cute, but ultimately inferior to just killing your opponent with TNN, Tar Pit, or Jace once you've consolidated your position.

Our creature package is light anyway and they don't make your list that better than mine against combo for the first game (TNN, Tar Pit are very slow.)
Your only trump against combo is more disruption main deck which is the real deal (11 -> 4 FOW 4 TS 2 IK 1 DC) against 7 with mine and I'm thinking to put some back in.

[Ralf]

Niceeee list, grats on the dual.

So was the GSZ plus creature package any usefull?
Did you have any thought on Kiora, the Crashing Wave and/or Karn Liberated over Vraska?
Did you ever got to abuse Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver -X ability?
I could see Counterbalance instead of Negate, did you considered those?
Same goes for Innocent Blood.
I could see tweaking the list a bit to go fully on you walkers. Perhaps a bit like that McDarby list.

Cheers.

1) GSZ is the swiss army knife. Usually, it is veteran #5. And yes, it was useful (getting a thragtusk at some point)
2) Yes, Kiora is currently being tested. I like the "blue count" to put back in some FOW MD. Karn has been tested. Unfortunately, 7 CMC is hard, even for a BUG with a nicfit shell. You want to do nasty things (most of the time) by turn 3. Hardcasting Karn by turn 3 is likely to happen 1/100 times.
3) Against BUG control I stole a goyf.
4) UU is hard. Then, you have to sculpt a mana curve to take the most profit of CB. Negate were MVP -> usually on a flashbacked therapy, you resolve the veteran trigger first, fetching for U/X so you could counter the brainstorm from your opponent (to hide anything you could have seen on the first therapy) to tear his hand into pieces. Really powerful and it happened several times.
5) Space is tight. IB is good to ensure another out to Veteran

Anyway the following sequence is disgusting and won me a lot of games:
T1 Therapy/veteran
T2 Veteran/therapy + flashback therapy + negate/AD
T3 PW

[btm10]

Our creature package is light anyway and they don't make your list that better than mine against combo for the first game (TNN, Tar Pit are very slow.)
Your only trump against combo is more disruption main deck which is the real deal (11 -> 4 FOW 4 TS 2 IK 1 DC) against 7 with mine and I'm thinking to put some back in.

The four disruption slots that I have and you don't are Force of Will, which are arguably the most important pieces of disruption against combo. That's fine - you don't have enough blue cards to support Force even if you add all four copies - but it's not a trivial change, either. I don't think that your "fair" matchups are going to be perceptibly better than mine, except maybe against Loam Pox. Since Pox isn't a particularly competitive or common deck, I'm not going to worry about it.

I also just don't like the Explorer plan. It's too much like a punisher card, it forces you to run a ton of basics, and is clunky without a sac outlet. Nic Fit is a real deck, but it's built enough around the Explorer plan to be it's own deck. I think the BUG Nic Fit variants are relatives of BUG Control, but they're different enough that the discussion belongs in that thread rather than here.

[Ralf]

The four disruption slots that I have and you don't are Force of Will, which are arguably the most important pieces of disruption against combo. That's fine - you don't have enough blue cards to support Force even if you add all four copies - but it's not a trivial change, either. I don't think that your "fair" matchups are going to be perceptibly better than mine, except maybe against Loam Pox. Since Pox isn't a particularly competitive or common deck, I'm not going to worry about it.

I also just don't like the Explorer plan. It's too much like a punisher card, it forces you to run a ton of basics, and is clunky without a sac outlet. Nic Fit is a real deck, but it's built enough around the Explorer plan to be it's own deck. I think the BUG Nic Fit variants are relatives of BUG Control, but they're different enough that the discussion belongs in that thread rather than here.

Not only Pox, but burn and few others.

As I said I'm trying to get back playing FOW MD, but without losing the heavy PW suit.
Cutting Vraska for Kiora could be a first step.
Cutting Explorer for DRS could be a second one.

How is the disynergy between Toxic & TNN ?

[btm10]

Not only Pox, but burn and few others.

As I said I'm trying to get back playing FOW MD, but without losing the heavy PW suit.
Cutting Vraska for Kiora could be a first step.
Cutting Explorer for DRS could be a second one.

How is the disynergy between Toxic & TNN ?

I have no idea how your Burn matchup is, but mine isn't terrible (it's around 50/50 against optimized Burn lists, and a lot of Burn lists aren't optimized). Beyond that, I guess your D&T matchup might be a little better?

As for the TNN/Deluge interaction, it's generally not an issue. I end up killing a TNN a non-trivial amount of time when casting Deluge, but I end up killing DRS even more frequently because flipped Delvers, opposing DRSs, Germ tokens, Stoneforge Mystics, Tarmogoyfs, and Threshed Mongeese are all X/2 or bigger. Part of this is deliberate - I'm careful not to extend too heavily into my own Deluges - but very few decks put so much pressure on you that you can't manage with only a single TNN as a blocker. And many times when I do kill my own True-Name it has forced my opponent to overcommit so badly that Deluge becomes a blowout on the order of a 4-for-2 or 5-for-2. Creature swarm decks can't afford to attack into TNN with any regularity because of how quickly he eats their guys - they need something like Tarmogoyf that can survive the encounter to make it worthwhile. Dropping Strix has hurt the RUG matchup slightly, but it's still net positive in my testing.

[wwoning]

So, the tournament went relatively well, although it was extremely hot inside. I ended up 2-3, with the last being a concede from my side after 1 lost game, because I had other commitments in the evening. A short report:

R1: Pim with MUD. 2-1

G1: Great, a matchup I have never played before. I win the dice roll and play. On T1 Thoughtseize I see Wurmcoil, Sundering Titan, Metalworker, Spine, Trinisphere, Ancient Tomb. I take the metalworker. Het gets to cast chalice @1 (dont care) and trinisphere (dont care), but is stuck without his metalworker. A T2 4/5 goyf gets there.
G2: I mull to 6 and keep a way too slow hand with Lili, Jace, Pulse. We get to to T3 and I make the mistake of pulsing his metalworker instead of his lightning greaves (turn later I see that he has another one, but still). On his turn he goes kuldotha, equip, sac 3, find Sundering Titan, wreck my 3 lands. :-(
G3: A grindy game, we get to a point where the board state is: He has Lodestone Golem and Wurmcoil Engine, I have TNN and Strix. We go into topdeck mode and I find my 2nd TNN. Nothing he can do, I win.

R2: Rens with Dredge. 0-2.

G1: I dont know what he's on, and on turn three he has hit 3 bridges, 2 ichorid and 3 narcomoeba. Scoop.
G2: I board in 1 extirpate, 1 surgical extraction and 1 nihil spellbomb. I actually find 1 DRS and 1 Spellbomb. On -i think- turn 2 or 3 I blow up the spellbomb, removing 3 dredgers. He takes the turn, firing of Firestorm in his upkeep for 3, destroying the DRS and putting 3 dredgers into the graveyard. I do get to Pulse his Zombies 2 turns later, but it is too little too late.
I think I was a bit unlucky in this match, but we have so many dead cards against dredge. Anyone want to share experiences?

R3: Job with Junk Nic Fit. 0-1-1. Another matchup I have practically no experience with.

G1: He hits an early Sigarda, but two Strixs keep her in check. I make another stupid mistake. He has a top out and after seeing only land for 2 turns, I can see by his reaction that he finally found something. I still tap out to attack with Tar Pit with FoW in hand. Next turn he lands SfM finding Jitte. Could have easily won this game.
G2: Another very grindy game that actually goes to time. Dont remember too much of this one, but the game ends up in a draw, so I lose the match. Cool games though.

R4: Michel with Nic Fit (also Junk I believe). 2-0.

G1: I dont have many notes, but I start ticking him down with Strix. TNN joins and he does not have too much business. Over quite quickly.
G2: He mulls to 6, I mull to 5. I land 1 TNN, he Therapies me but calls the wrong thing. He does see a second TNN in my hand. A turn later he Thoughtseizes me, but i have topdecked Brainstorm to hide TNN + Liliana. I land my second TNN the turn after and he scoops with Pulse and some other targeted removal spell in hand.

R5: Balthasar with BUG Delver. 0-1, concede

G1: I make so many mistakes this game. I was too greedy and went too much on the aggro plan. He actually mulls to 5. Turn 3 I Clique him on draw step, playing straight into Daze. Therefore I cant block his Delver pressuring me. Later in the game I tap out to attack with CTP. I drew a land for the turn and decide not to play it, so I can shuffle it away. I have double FoW in hand, which I need to use next turn to counter his Tombstalker. He dazes it and I am stranded with the Trop in hand :-(

Overall I was happy, I played against some decks I do not know very well, but I never felt I had no game (except G1 against Dredge, logically). I think the deck is very strong and very versatile. I do have a lot to learn about it, but will be happy to play it the next few tournaments.

I might think about moving Deluge to the mainboard which seems interesting, but I didnt encounter a lot of situations where I would have wished that my Strixes were Deluges. Didn't see D&T and Elves though, which would matchups where that switch would be great.

Any thoughts, suggestions, tips & tricks?

[btm10]

Thanks for posting your report. As someone on the MD Deluge plan, I obviously support it.

As for your matchups, do you mind posting the list you ran? I actually find all of my games against Dredge to be about equal in difficulty, because while we bring in Surgical/Extirpate/Cage/Nihil Spellbomb postboard, they get access to Nature's Claim and potential DRS answers (some lists have brought in Pithing Needle against me, I'm not sure how common this is). It's a fairly awkward matchup to board for too, since you want things like Decay and Edict to kill your own creatures, while Liliana is bad because it gives them another discard outlet. I tend to leave Jace in because he's huge when it comes to keeping your hand full and digging for answers, and is a blue card to pitch to Force. Deathrite Shaman is absolutely the best card against them, especially if you're on the play, but if you expect a lot of Dredge I'd probably run 2 Cage, 1 Surgical Extraction in the board. Overall I think the matchup is about 50/50, but it's very draw dependent. If you have turn 1 DRS + countermagic, you have a better than even chance of winning. Nic Fit is slightly favorable in my testing - they get the occasional win when they can set Thragtusk up or something, but you have more and better disruption and are much better at going on the aggro plan with TNN than they are at trying to dig up one of two or three 1-of fatties and protecting it - but it's not a bye, and I've only played the match two or three times, so I could be wrong about the dynamics. BUG Delver is about 50/50. If you weather the early storm, you're fine. When I lose it's to the hard-core tempo plan - if they try to play the long game against you they tend to get blown out by Deluge and Jace. I tend to board Force out in this matchup if they're running Hymn, which most BUG Delver players seem to be doing (and is probably right) and board in Spell Pierce, the extra Sylvan Library, the 4th Abrupt Decay, and swap 3 Thoughtseize with 2 Hymn, 1 Inquisition from thee board to minimize the life loss. Dimir Charm stays to deal with DRS and counter Hymn.

[danpo]

Took BUG control to my local weekly last night. I wanted something that could shred combo's hand, not die to fast Delver/Goyf, grind a long game with planeswalkers, and, given the opportunity, close out the game in a hurry.

http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/76765

^ Using this as a starting point, I wound up taking this:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 True-name Nemesis
3 Baleful Stryx
1 Vendilion Clique

3 Jace, the Mind-Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Counterspell

3 Wasteland
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest

Compared to a lot of BUG lists, it's a lot closer to straight U/B splashing green for Abrupt Decay.

Note I got rid of some singletons in favor of consistent awesomeness with a full 4x FOW and 4x Decay in the main, and also cut the third Creeping Tar Pit for a basic Swamp, on the theory I could fetch it out on the first turn for Deathrite or hand-hate. There's an argument to be made that this goes against the spirit of the random 1x Counterspell I threw on a lark into the last vacant slot, but in practice the Swamp's inability to make blue was rarely a consideration and Counterspell saved my bacon several times.

My sideboard was an EDH pile resembling this:

1 Krosan Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Extirpate
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Massacre
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1 Envelop
1 Flusterstorm
1 Swansong
1 Spell Snare
1 Pithing Needle
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

Round 1 - Storm.

I won the first game in a very long, slow grind involving copious amounts of mutual hand-hate.

For game two, I boarded out Decays for Envelop, Flusterstorm, Swansong and Spell Snare but did not think to board out the unimpressive Baleful Stryxes to make room for graveyard hate in the form of Extirpate, Grafdigger's Cage and Nihil Spellbomb. I lost this game to Past In Flames, with a Baleful Stryx on board, like a dumbass.

At this point we had just a few minutes left but charged into game three, which I think favors him. I kept a hand with 2x Brainstorm and a Thoughtseize, which took his Cabal Therapy while revealing two Gitaxian Probes. He then topdecked another Therapy, like a champ, Probed and binned both my Brainstorms.

I then set up a Liliana as time was called and basically resigned to keeping him from going off during extra turns. Around this point, his second Probe revealed I had topdecked Extirpate. He tried to bait this by discarding Past In Flames to Liliana, but I opted not to, on the theory that with Past In Flames on the stack I could decide what screwed him the most and fire off Extirpate then.

This proved to be a good call, as he had one turn left when I topdecked Thoughtseize, took one of three Cabal Rituals from his hand, Extirpated it to take the other two from his hand, and activated Liliana to bin his last card, the Burning Wish he would've gone off with on his last turn. Phew. 0-0-1.

Round 2 - Lands.

My opponent is a nice guy, and tells me he's still learning this deck, and he mulligans a lot. I don't remember a ton about this match other than using Wastelands a lot in the first game, remembering to pay for Tabernacle every upkeep and feeling really glad True-name-Nemesis is immune to Maze of Ith. Closing out the second game in the face of Crucible of Worlds / Glacial Chasm action involved a Liliana of the Veil, a fortunate Deathrite Shaman activation removing Life From the Loam, and using Liliana's ultimate (!) followed up with a Nihil Spellbomb. 1-0-1.

Round 3 - Patriot.

This was my favorite match of the night and a hugely interactive back-and-forth battle. I couldn't recount all the details for you if I tried, but deck-wise I felt fortunate to have Abrupt Decay to kill Delver and Stoneforge Mystic through his barrage of counter, a lasting threat in Trune's indifference to Patriot's Lightning Bolts and Swords to Plowshares, an unanswered Jace for several turns, and, at one point, a Wasteland to keep my opponent off the mana to hardcast Batterskull.

The last few turns of the second game involved both of us going hellbent, him getting active Batterskull, me racing with True-name Nemesis and Creeping Tar Pit, and a topdecked Rest In Peace from him to keep me from killing him with Deathrite Shaman. I was rather luckily able to Abrupt Decay the RiP just in time to drop him to zero life before Batterskull stole the game. Really felt like my deck was firing on all cylinders here. 2-0-1.

Round 4 - Goblins.

Game one: he sees all four Ringleaders, hitting 3 of 4 cards off the first and 4 of 4 off the second and I am fucked.
Game two: he mulls to four, I have Jace on turn three and my opponent has missed his second land-drop so I Fate-seal him out of the game.
Game three: he has a turn-one Warren Instigator off Chrome Mox, turn-two Warren Weirding to kill my Deathrite Shaman and thereby uses Instigator to cheat in Kiki-Jiki and Goblin Piledriver, and fucking destroys me on turn three.

We played one more just for funsies and I lost that one too, ending my night 2-1-1.

Overall I felt pretty good about the build. Would like to make the sideboard smarter and less random. Marsh Casualties and Infest are both tempting, as is moar Toxic Deluge, on the basis they can kill stuff with two toughness like Goblin Piledriver and I guess Nettle Sentinel and hey also Stoneforge Mystic but are less narrow than Massacre or Golgari Charm. Engineered Plague is an arguable consideration but does nothing in the face of Goblin Chieftain, where Deluge is really probably the most versatile option and might get the nod but its symmetry blah blah ramble ramble hope you liked my report is it Friday already kthxbai.

[anwei]

Note I got rid of some singletons in favor of consistent awesomeness with a full 4x FOW and 4x Decay in the main

If you haven't read the last handful of pages, the discussion primarily concerns these sorts of lists, and there's a lot of good comments/discussions in there.
There's certainly an argument for running the 4th Force in particular, but there's nothing "inconsistent" about varrying the cards which fill certain roles in the deck (Decay, Edict, Dismember, Disfigure, Deluge, Pulse, and Dimir Charm all have their own strengths).

[wwoning]

As for your matchups, do you mind posting the list you ran?

Sure, here it is:

23 LANDS
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
2 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta

12 CREATURES
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 True-Name Nemesis
3 Baleful Strix
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Tarmogoyf

19 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Spell Pierce

6 OTHER SPELLS
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sylvan Library

15 SIDEBOARD

1 Envelop
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
1 Spell Pierce
2 Golgari Charm
1 Flusterstorm
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Counterspell
1 Maelstrom Pulse

[btm10]

Took BUG control to my local weekly last night. I wanted something that could shred combo's hand, not die to fast Delver/Goyf, grind a long game with planeswalkers, and, given the opportunity, close out the game in a hurry.
...

Compared to a lot of BUG lists, it's a lot closer to straight U/B splashing green for Abrupt Decay.

Note I got rid of some singletons in favor of consistent awesomeness with a full 4x FOW and 4x Decay in the main, and also cut the third Creeping Tar Pit for a basic Swamp, on the theory I could fetch it out on the first turn for Deathrite or hand-hate. There's an argument to be made that this goes against the spirit of the random 1x Counterspell I threw on a lark into the last vacant slot, but in practice the Swamp's inability to make blue was rarely a consideration and Counterspell saved my bacon several times.

My sideboard was an EDH pile resembling this:

1 Krosan Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Extirpate
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Massacre
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1 Envelop
1 Flusterstorm
1 Swansong
1 Spell Snare
1 Pithing Needle
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

...

Overall I felt pretty good about the build. Would like to make the sideboard smarter and less random. Marsh Casualties and Infest are both tempting, as is moar Toxic Deluge, on the basis they can kill stuff with two toughness like Goblin Piledriver and I guess Nettle Sentinel and hey also Stoneforge Mystic but are less narrow than Massacre or Golgari Charm. Engineered Plague is an arguable consideration but does nothing in the face of Goblin Chieftain, where Deluge is really probably the most versatile option and might get the nod but its symmetry blah blah ramble ramble hope you liked my report is it Friday already kthxbai.

Sounds like you did well. Congrats. I also tried both basics and Counterspell; as anwei said, both of those are discussed on the previous pages. I think that one or two basics (Swamp and Island, obviously) are fine here, but there are limitations and they basically mean that you can't do certain things, like consider Tarmogoyf as an additional beater or support much in the way of additional green spells out of the board. I think that the direction you're taking here is worth looking in to further.

If you're going to add a sweeper, I obviously like Deluge both because of its flexibility and the fact that it has easy color requirements, but if you don't mind the BB, Drown in Sorrow is strictly better than Infest. I prefer Golgari Charm to Marsh Casualties even with Strixes in the deck because all three modes are relevant and at worst Charm + Strix is a 1-for-1 removal spell for something that Charm can't kill otherwise. The ability to destroy Enchantments like Rest in Peace and opposing Sylvan Libraries is also important.

As for redundancy, you can get a lot of flexibility out of 1, 2, or 3-ofs when you're running Sylvan Library or Ponder. I'm actually thinking about taking a note from the (mostly) European Miracles players who are running Ponders in addition to Brainstorm. I think from my earlier list it would just be -1 Fact or Fiction, +1 Ponder to start, though I could see myself dropping a Trop for a second copy.


How were Kiora and Venser out of the board?


Sure, here it is:

23 LANDS
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
2 Bayou
3 Polluted Delta

12 CREATURES
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 True-Name Nemesis
3 Baleful Strix
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Tarmogoyf

19 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Spell Pierce

6 OTHER SPELLS
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sylvan Library

15 SIDEBOARD

1 Envelop
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
1 Spell Pierce
2 Golgari Charm
1 Flusterstorm
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Counterspell
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Seems like a solid list. Was there anything you were unhappy with?

Also - I see that both of you (wwoning and danpo) are running Envelop. How was that? I'm thinking about trying to find some SB space for Misdirection or Divert specifically for the BUG mirror (both Shardless and Delver), and Envelop seems like it's very narrow compared to both MisD and Dimir Charm, yet serves a sort-of similar role. Anwei, you've been right about a lot of suggestions so far. What do you think?

[wwoning]

Seems like a solid list. Was there anything you were unhappy with?

At the moment, no. But I have seen far from all matchups, so I would like to see how happy I stay with the list. For now, improving my own game play and making less mistakes should help me perform better :-)

Envelop, I definitely see advantages. It helps against EtA, Infernal Tutor and Show & Tell. That's three not too easy matchups where it has a use. Misdirection seems interesting but is it worth twe two-for-one? Divert also seems sweet, but the big plus of Envelop is that it's a hard counter.

I haven't seen a lot of combo matchups, so I'll evaluate how the different counterspells work.

Also, cutting green as much as possible and adding Swamp + Island seems interesting, though the singleton Goyf does a ton of work a lot of times. Guess that's going to be playtesting :-)

[btm10]

Envelop, I definitely see advantages. It helps against EtA, Infernal Tutor and Show & Tell. That's three not too easy matchups where it has a use. Misdirection seems interesting but is it worth twe two-for-one? Divert also seems sweet, but the big plus of Envelop is that it's a hard counter.

I haven't seen a lot of combo matchups, so I'll evaluate how the different counterspells work.


I think that once you play some more combo matchups you'll be fairly happy. The super fast, Glass Cannon decks like Belcher are the hardest to fight, but even those are about even. That brings me to my point about Envelop. I don't think that running such a narrow card out of the board is worth the slot if you've already got 2 Counterspells and a Flusterstorm that you can bring in for counter oriented matchups. I think that the MD Dimir Charm is a better choice if you're looking to hit sorceries because it also gives you the ability to kill lots of relevant creatures or stop Top shenanigans.

I'm interested in your thoughts on the three matchups you singled out as not particularly good. In my testing Miracles is somewhere between favorable and very favorable, Storm is favorable, and Show and Tell strategies are around even.

On Misdirection, it's basically never a 2-for-1. At worst it's Force #5, sometimes it's a 1-for-1 that keeps you in control or puts you ahead (when you Misdirect Abrupt Decay to kill an opposing DRS or Delver), and sometimes it's a blowout (when you Misdirect Hymn).

[anwei]

Also - I see that both of you (wwoning and danpo) are running Envelop. How was that? I'm thinking about trying to find some SB space for Misdirection or Divert specifically for the BUG mirror (both Shardless and Delver), and Envelop seems like it's very narrow compared to both MisD and Dimir Charm, yet serves a sort-of similar role. Anwei, you've been right about a lot of suggestions so far. What do you think?

Like 2 years ago I used to jam Envelop all the time. So many of the "this is the card you need to counter in this matchup" cards were Sorceries, and Spell Pierce was so prevalent and routinely-played-around, that a hard counter for their combo-business was the best play and often caught them off-guard. If it was a match to board in counters, Envelop would probably get the job done.
Some things are different now. I additionally fear non-Sorceries (especially Moon/Challice, especially in my meta, Planeswalkers) a lot more, the diversity of the Delver decks and UWxx Blade decks have considerably reduced the play that Spell Pierce sees (mostly for discard: compare BUG Delver and Deathblade vs. RUG Delver and Esper blade), and consequently the playing-around it gets. I'm probably more inclined to run Pierce (or, as you say, Counterspell) again in those slots, especially since all my logic seems to come back to "how do I build everything around the hope that I have a Liliana in play?", so they hopefully can't land-drop through it :)

I certainly wouldn't sideboard Dimir Charm. I probably wouldn't want Misdirection or Divert, since I'm already skeptical of the circumstanciality of counters in the mid-game. I basically want Force as a tempo-play to stabilize, want other counters against combo, and want to grind through all their other resources.

I also basically think Misdirection is a garbage card. Saving Liliana from Decay can only happen in a narrow window, since I probably don't have 2 cards or another good target if she's active. Saving most other permanents in a 2-for-2 is okay, but not the most exciting. Misdirecting Hymn and getting Dazed is heartbreaking. Obviously BUG Delver probably has enough actual targets, and I'm being a little hard on it, but seriously, I hate that card, like, on an emotional level. "3UU: Tilt, stare at this garbage wondering whether your opponent has a single legal target anywhere in his 75, and ponder over how exactly you confused this for Force of Will."

I cannot figure out what EtA is. This is making me question whether I know anything about Legacy. Help.

[btm10]

Some things are different now. I additionally fear non-Sorceries (especially Moon/Challice, especially in my meta, Planeswalkers) a lot more, the diversity of the Delver decks and UWxx Blade decks have considerably reduced the play that Spell Pierce sees (mostly for discard: compare BUG Delver and Deathblade vs. RUG Delver and Esper blade), and consequently the playing-around it gets. I'm probably more inclined to run Pierce (or, as you say, Counterspell) again in those slots, especially since all my logic seems to come back to "how do I build everything around the hope that I have a Liliana in play?", so they hopefully can't land-drop through it :)

I certainly wouldn't sideboard Dimir Charm. I probably wouldn't want Misdirection or Divert, since I'm already skeptical of the circumstanciality of counters in the mid-game. I basically want Force as a tempo-play to stabilize, want other counters against combo, and want to grind through all their other resources.

I also basically think Misdirection is a garbage card. Saving Liliana from Decay can only happen in a narrow window, since I probably don't have 2 cards or another good target if she's active. Saving most other permanents in a 2-for-2 is okay, but not the most exciting. Misdirecting Hymn and getting Dazed is heartbreaking. Obviously BUG Delver probably has enough actual targets, and I'm being a little hard on it, but seriously, I hate that card, like, on an emotional level. "3UU: Tilt, stare at this garbage wondering whether your opponent has a single legal target anywhere in his 75, and ponder over how exactly you confused this for Force of Will."

I cannot figure out what EtA is. This is making me question whether I know anything about Legacy. Help.

I'm guessing EtA is Entreat the Angels and wrote my post with that assumption, but I could be wrong. I don't think Dimir Charm is sideboard material either. I meant that if wwoning wanted to counter sorceries, it was better to just maindeck the Charm so it could also kill creatures.

I guess you and I just see Misdirection very differently. And potentially the BUG Delver matchup as well. Both decks are trying to deplete the opponent's resources, but Delver tries to deny development, whereas we trying to undo it. And in my testing, these matches frequently turn into slugfests where they knock me down to like 10 life, but then I answer their threats and we're both in topdeck mode, so it becomes me trying to find Sylvan or Jace or double TNN before they get a Goyf or play a Delver and get it to flip and then be able to race me. Misdirection is key early to stop Hymn from hitting lands or gas and to stop Decay from killing DRS, which might be its single biggest application - I think that DRS is key to the matchup. Against Shardless Misdirection is nice to have for Vision, Decay, and Hymn, but that match seems to turn on other issues like whether or not they resolve Ancestral Vision and who hits a Planeswalker first. Misdirection is good in the first case and sort of relevant in the second, but that might not be enough to bring it in against them. I do think I'll test it though.

[anwei]

Yea, I was intentionally being a bit hyperbolic (but only a bit). It's clearly fine as the 5th combo-protecting force, against countermagic, from something like Show and Tell, and (my main gripe) clearly not very good as the 5th combo-disrupting force in a disruption-lite fair deck.

The decks you mention both have enough quite-good targets that it is a quite strong play, when it comes up. I don't love the idea of leaving 2 cards sitting dead in my hand waiting for one of the relevant spells to be cast. It's certainly strong enough to play in those matches, if it were in your 75 for another reason, but I don't think a circumstancially-powerful 2-for-X play is something I want to give a sideboard slot to, even if those are reasonably common match-ups.

I guess I think like this: The card is dead in many match-ups (it might come in for 20-30% of the format). Those match-ups are probably generally favorable (I'd rather be my BUG against Agent/Delver; Jund is trickier). In those match-ups, there are many game states where the card isn't viable against the spells you want - either player has Liliana, you don't both have permanents (Decay), you have enough board advantage to ignore discard or don't have anything in hand (Hymn). Even if the game state is ripe for it, they might not have the right card - you might be sitting around with an earmarked Brainstorm to pitch and Misdirection and wait around for nothing. And then, if you make it through that whole circumstance tree, you have a powerful play (though it might amount to a 2-for-2 tempo gain/board stabilization).
So the EV calculation ends up with something that can be awesome, but you have to multiply that by the odds of things unfolding that way, and balance the power of the card with topdecking it into either player's Liliana, or holding it as you die to Goyf, or leaving it in your board because you played Elves all day. Or, of using it to kill their DRS instead of yours, then you Deluge 2 turns later and it didn't matter anyway. I don't think the upside is as high as you make it, and it has a lot of qualifications before you get to the full upside.
That said, I'll run a few test games starting with it in my opener and see how I like it. It definitely has much higher upside than a whole bunch of grindy cards - I don't know how anyone comes back from Visioning their opponent in an attrition match...

I haven't spent much time with this deck in the last couple weeks, but have been thinking through dropping Strix and going to a 2nd MD Deluge and (I assume) another 1-2 counters to keep the blue count up. Your list on the last page is also a little tight - 17 blue cards with 4 Force, I think, and you mentioned cutting FoF, and obviously have the tension of 5 md 3/1s with 2 Deluge. What are the next blue things you'd be maindecking?

[btm10]

You're definitely right that the list I posted is blue-light. It's just barely making my minimum blue count for 4 Force, so it's probably just too low to support the Misdirection. Tentatively, I think that dropping a Trop or a Bayou (probably the Trop), one of the Inquisitions, and the Fact or Fiction for two copies of Ponder and a Spell Pierce or Negate. If I drop the Bayou instead of the Trop, I might be able to support a straight-up Counterspell, but that's getting greedy. I've been testing the singleton Ponder over FoF and it's been good, especially late.

I'm toying with an additional threat over either the remaining MD Inquisition or one of the Deluges and I'm not sure if I'd rather have Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker. The tension between Deluge and all of the X/1s is real, but usually not awful. Deluge is better than Strix against D&T, Elves, Shardless, Deathblade and is marginally better against Miracles (not that either is particularly good, and it's not like the Miracles matchup needs to be improved), while being worse against basically all Delver strategies and Sneak and Show.

[wwoning]

Anwei and btm, have you been playing with the deck recently? Could you share your latest lists?

I am now trying out 1 Swamp and 1 Island as basics, but I do not like it to much. I have been reading the discussion here again and I agree that it just feels too clunky with Gx needed on turn 2 and UU or BB needed on turn 3. Two basics also dont help against D&T or other Wasteland strategies since they just get the other other lands, that you also need.

I wanted to replace 1 or 2 Diabolic Edicts, but this also does not seem like a good idea. I was thinking about Go for the Throat or Dismember, but I want to be able to hit Marit Lage, TNN and Emrakul, so I guess Edict should stay.

[btm10]

I've been testing MD countermatic over the Inquisitions again. It helps in the BUG Delver matchup because it can stop their bombs (Jace, Liliana, Sylvan Library) once you're both in topdeck mode, and makes very little difference elsewhere, though in a couple of matchups I did want to draw my Thoughtseizes for extra information, so there is a sacrifice to be made when dropping Inquisition. I think I need to test it more to be sure. I've also ended up trimming the 22nd land and the Fact or Fiction for a Ponder and a maindeck Jitte. Jitte isn't a conventional threat, but it's game ending against so many decks in conjunction with TNN that it's been good, and it greatly speeds up your clock in matches where TNN feels slow.

Finally, after bouncing back and forth between Strix and Deluge multiple times, I've finally committed to 2 MD Deluge. In doing this, I've found that I agree with Philipp Schönegger's (Einherjer) approach - we want to get all of our matches as close to 50% as possible and make up the balance through playskill. This means committing several maindeck slots to interacting favorably preboard with our hardest matchups rather than having cards that are generically good and winning that way. If you're convinced that you're going to be able to Dodge Elves and Death and Taxes all day, then Strix is optimal - it's card neutral when cast, it forces Delver players to burn removal on it rather than DRS or they end up making awkward attacks to avoid trading their major threats with it, it pitches to Force, it's stronger against strategies that seek to cheat Griselbrand or Emrakul into play, and on and on. But without MD Deluge, D&T and Elves are tremendous uphill battles because Elves simply has too many dorks too fast to trade 1-for-1 with, and D&T becomes completely about finding Jitte and getting it equipped before you're overwhelmed. Deluge isn't dead against Delver, whereas Strix just isn't enough against Elves or Death and Taxes to move the needle appreciably. I may end up trimming one of the two Deluges for another Ponder if Jitte continues to be as good as it has been, but the sweeper is very important for the two most problematic creature matchups. Similarly, Inquisition is more flexible than Pierce, it gives you information about their hand without costing life, and can preemptively stop problems so you can tap out and develop your board. Despite that, beating BUG Delver usually requires winning a topdeck war against a deck with slightly better library manipulation and a higher threat density. The two best ways of doing that are making sure that they run out of cards before you do and making sure you can connect with your answers when they drop a threat in the midgame. Of these scenarios, Pierce and Inquisition are equally good at the first, but Pierce is much better at the second because it can stop any topdecked noncreature threat while still being live vs. most decks in game 1, and our deck is brimming with answers to creatures anyway.

[anwei]

Anwei and btm, have you been playing with the deck recently? Could you share your latest lists?

I am now trying out 1 Swamp and 1 Island as basics, but I do not like it to much. I have been reading the discussion here again and I agree that it just feels too clunky with Gx needed on turn 2 and UU or BB needed on turn 3. Two basics also dont help against D&T or other Wasteland strategies since they just get the other other lands, that you also need.

I wanted to replace 1 or 2 Diabolic Edicts, but this also does not seem like a good idea. I was thinking about Go for the Throat or Dismember, but I want to be able to hit Marit Lage, TNN and Emrakul, so I guess Edict should stay.

I haven't been playing much at all lately, and have been messing around with a handful of other decks, though there's an Open coming here in a few weeks, so I'm about to return to considering this in earnest as it's the style of deck I most prefer (I've been testing Miracles lists and hate playing that deck) and might be my favorite of the options (I have a very love/hate relationship with cascade).

I am currently inclined to play another Snapcaster over a Strix (and consider the 3rd), as it feels less bad to throw away to Deluge, is a faster clock if it comes to that, and plays much more nicely (/cutely) with Liliana (yours or theirs - responding to their +1 by flashing in and giving your brainstorm flashback seems awesome).

I'm also inclined to steal Lejay's Shardless manabase and play Swamp and Forest with primarily green fetches. You're certainly correct that you cannot fetch a Wasteland-proof manabase, but it would be nice to have some ability to contest Moon and Price of Progress, and have a little more color resilience to Wasteland. Fetching Forest, your worst color, in a deck with 4 U Sea and 2 Tar Pit means you're set-for-life on Green and can just fetch Seas. Fetching T1 Swamp for DRS into T2 Lily, through Wasteland, is nice as well. Not sure I'll actually land there, but that sort of setup does a better job with basics matching the requirements of this deck than (as in, say, Esperblade's UUWB) trying to work for a manabase that lets you cast everything off basics.

[btm10]

I am currently inclined to play another Snapcaster over a Strix (and consider the 3rd), as it feels less bad to throw away to Deluge, is a faster clock if it comes to that, and plays much more nicely (/cutely) with Liliana (yours or theirs - responding to their +1 by flashing in and giving your brainstorm flashback seems awesome).

I'm also inclined to steal Lejay's Shardless manabase and play Swamp and Forest with primarily green fetches. You're certainly correct that you cannot fetch a Wasteland-proof manabase, but it would be nice to have some ability to contest Moon and Price of Progress, and have a little more color resilience to Wasteland. Fetching Forest, your worst color, in a deck with 4 U Sea and 2 Tar Pit means you're set-for-life on Green and can just fetch Seas. Fetching T1 Swamp for DRS into T2 Lily, through Wasteland, is nice as well. Not sure I'll actually land there, but that sort of setup does a better job with basics matching the requirements of this deck than (as in, say, Esperblade's UUWB) trying to work for a manabase that lets you cast everything off basics.

I 'm still back and forth on some number of basics too. If you're only running one, I think that just Swamp might be right, but I'm not totally sure of that. I briefly tried using Lejay's manabase and frequently wanted basic Island over the Forest, though as you say it's nice to be able to fetch the Forest once and be done with it.

Are you still running Goyfs, or is it just Snaps and TNN?

[anwei]

Yea, I went to 1 Swamp. Not much against Price, and nearly worthless against Blood Moon, but it lets you play T1 DRS and have 3 mana on T2 even through Wasteland, and that's pretty significant in a deck with huge 3-drops. Wanting to ensure that line is open puts you on Swamp or Forest, and Forest is too bad to draw alongside Wasteland/Tar Pit, even though I play Goyfs (so Forest is a lot more reasonable for me).
With more threats (so less need for >1 Tar Pit) and still wanting to make lots of land drops in grindy matches (so less desire for Wasteland), I might try to trim those numbers to fit more, but I think I'm going to have 1 Swamp for a while.

I've been juggling around 4 DRS, 3 Goyf (or 2 Goyf // 1 Tombstalker), 5-6 blue guys from: TNN, Strix, SCM, Clique. This has been 2-3 TNN and all over on the other 2-4 slots. I still kinda like the versatility of this list (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13709&iddeck=100720) (4 DRS, 3 Goyf, 2 TNN, 2 Strix, 2 SCM), but I think those other 3 blue guys just add a little more redundancy and flexibility, while TNN is too unique at its role, so I want to stick to 3.
At the moment, I'm back at 4 DRS, 3 Goyf, 3 TNN, 2 Strix, 1 SCM. (I did go up to 4 Force for now: a nice side effect of powerful, versatile blue creatures is that they don't feel too bad to pitch to Force. It does make sideboarding tough though, bc against (e.g.) Storm, you end up with lots of awkward creature to cut - sideboard Clique seems mandatory.)

Here's another interesting list (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14267&iddeck=105168) that looks like half a tempo list spliced in: 10 guys - 4 DRS, 3 Goyf, 3 TNN, 3+3 Walkers, Daze, Pierce, 3 Ponder. Possibly made with budget constraints - 0 md FoW (2 sb), only 7 fetches, 4(!) basics, Urborg. I'm partially in this thread because I think Delver is a bad card in the Bug Delver lists, and don't like Confidant either, but I'm not sure what the best alternative(s) is/are; I don't think this is it (with that counter suite and manabase in particular), but it's a stab at a Midrange-Control list with less of an identity crisis than Bug Delver.

[btm10]

I'm on 1 Swamp, too. I think it's right. If you can keep DRS around and a land in the graveyard, it even gives you a way to destroy Blood Moon.

As much as I don't like doing it, I think I'm going to play BUG Delver at GPNJ and at Opens for the foreseeable future. This deck is a ton of fun and very much my style, but you have to pick either Delver or Death and Taxes/Elves to have a good game against, and I don't like having to choose. My most recent build has Jitte, Deluge, and 2 Disfigures (over the Edicts in earlier lists), and I still can't get BUG Delver to 50/50, and I don't want my one strongly unfavorable matchup to be one of the best decks in the format, no matter how good my Miracles, combo, and other Delver matchups are.

[anwei]

What's your current list?

[btm10]

Land (22)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Misty Rainforest

Planeswalkers (5)
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Disruption/Removal (17)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Disfigure
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Toxic Deluge

Creatures (9)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique

Draw/Manipulation(7)
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

Sideboard (15)
1 Sylvan Library
2 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Golgari Charm
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Force of Will


The MD Pierces and SB Inquisitions are "soft" locations and switch places a lot. The 9th fetch might be better as the third Ponder or as the first of two Snaps (moving the 4th Decay to the board, probably in one of the SB discard slots, for the second).

[anwei]

I haven't changed much lately, but for reference:

Here's my current list:
22 Lands
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest

18 "Guys"
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Baleful Strix
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Jace, the Mind-Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil

20 Spells
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
1 Dimir Charm
3 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge

Board
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Disfigure
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Notes and parts that need work:
-I *generally* play a more controlling role than most decks running Goyf, and use them against fair decks accordingly. I would way more likely play a T2 Strix/Library, or pass with mana up, than rush out a Goyf.
-Manabase: Haven't thought much about this after switching over to 1 basic. Will probably cut Bayou and possibly the 10th fetch for a 3rd Wasteland and/or 4th U Sea (as always, on the fence about basics). A big question, on the Wasteland, is how often I'm sliding into a more aggressive role, vs. how often I want to just keep making land drops. (Going still more aggressive could spark a series of changes toward 3rd Waste, dropping 2nd Tar Pit, dropping 3rd Lily, increasing Goyf count, etc.)
-I'm really mixed on Ponders, and want to try to fit 1-2 in, though spots are tight (I'm at 13 creatures). Having high-impact cards makes finding the right one even better, though having lots of good answers means already having them comes up more often (and the more the list tends toward a controlling, "Step One: Neutralize the Board, Step Two: Stabilize, Step Three: Win" plan, the more you don't want to have to Ponder in Step One).
-Maindeck flex slots: 4th Decay, 4th Force, Snapcaster, 3rd Goyf. Would like: 1-2 Ponder, 2nd Hymn, 2nd Snapcaster, Maelstrom Pulse, 2nd Pierce.
-Board: I basically have 5 general blue combo slots, 5 specific hate-ish cards, and 5 fair cards. The first 10 are basically locked (adjusting for maindeck changes like cutting Force) with one Spellbomb on the fence, the last 5 are all over - I want a 2nd Jitte, want a 2nd Disfigure, want 1-2 E Plauge, etc.

I'll be testing this more this week, and will update on Bug Delver in particular, but I have found it slightly favored, and was surprised to hear you find it that bad. I can only imagine that Goyfs and Robot Birds help a good amount.

[btm10]

I think that the birds completely turn that matchup around. I found it even as well when I was running Strix, so maybe that's the whole issue. On the other hand, I found Death and Taxes and Elves nightmarish without Deluge. You're right that space is tight, so maybe I should just go back to Strix MD over...something. (Deluge and a Ponder?)

[anwei]

I played this today to a sad 5-4 at the Open. Beat BG midrange, RUG Delver, Rogue Hermit, UR Delver, and Junk Depths; lost to ANT, Death and Taxes, Reanimator, and Deathblade. I probably boarded poorly for DnT and Deathblade - with respect to Force of Will in particular - but played okay. A series of 2-landers that never found a 3rd, or 1-landers on a mull to 5/6 were not too fun. I still like this deck a lot, and still think it's worth playing. Specifically, I still think it has an appropriately more resilient creature suite than BUG Delver (though I certainly missed Daze), and with mostly 2-drops to affect the board, more ability to interact more relevantly, more quickly than Shardless BUG.
The biggest problem I had today was the large number of 2-drops with relatively few 1-drops and 3-drops that I want on turn 3, leading to a clunky curve as I try to power through my slew of 2-drops in hand. Thalia does some serious work against that plan as well. I'd probably cut Library for Ponder, Dimir Charm for maindeck Disfigure (Dismember?), Hymn for IoK, and 2nd Tar Pit for 4th U Sea, to help resolve that.

Lands (22)
3 U Sea
2 Trop
2 Bayou
2 Tar Pit
2 Wasteland
1 Swamp
10 Fetch

Dudes (18)
4 DRS
3 Goyf
3 TNN
2 Strix
1 SCM
2 JTMS
3 LotV

Spells (20)
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

3 FoW
1 Spell Pierce
1 Dimir Charm

3 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach

3 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Toxic Deluge

Board (15)
2 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstom Pulse
1 Disfigure
1 Dismember
1 Jitte
2 V Clique
2 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Null Rod

[btm10]

I played this today to a sad 5-4 at the Open. Beat BG midrange, RUG Delver, Rogue Hermit, UR Delver, and Junk Depths; lost to ANT, Death and Taxes, Reanimator, and Deathblade. I probably boarded poorly for DnT and Deathblade - with respect to Force of Will in particular - but played okay. A series of 2-landers that never found a 3rd, or 1-landers on a mull to 5/6 were not too fun. I still like this deck a lot, and still think it's worth playing. Specifically, I still think it has an appropriately more resilient creature suite than BUG Delver (though I certainly missed Daze), and with mostly 2-drops to affect the board, more ability to interact more relevantly, more quickly than Shardless BUG.
The biggest problem I had today was the large number of 2-drops with relatively few 1-drops and 3-drops that I want on turn 3, leading to a clunky curve as I try to power through my slew of 2-drops in hand. Thalia does some serious work against that plan as well. I'd probably cut Library for Ponder, Dimir Charm for maindeck Disfigure (Dismember?), Hymn for IoK, and 2nd Tar Pit for 4th U Sea, to help resolve that.

Lands (22)
3 U Sea
2 Trop
2 Bayou
2 Tar Pit
2 Wasteland
1 Swamp
10 Fetch

Dudes (18)
4 DRS
3 Goyf
3 TNN
2 Strix
1 SCM
2 JTMS
3 LotV

Spells (20)
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

3 FoW
1 Spell Pierce
1 Dimir Charm

3 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach

3 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Toxic Deluge

Board (15)
2 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstom Pulse
1 Disfigure
1 Dismember
1 Jitte
2 V Clique
2 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Null Rod

Sorry it didn't go well for you. I definitely get the curve issue where 3 lands + DRS is our magic number, and maybe we've all tried to get a little too cute with our curve and answers/threats. I think the way you're configured you want the third Wasteland because as you've said, you slide pretty readily into a tempo/midrange role like BUG Delver, but aren't always equipped to fight on that basis without things like Daze. If you do go up to the more aggressive route, do you think Spell Pierce might be an option since the alternate cost for Daze is sort of inappropriate?

I've been playing a lot of Shardless and a little of several Delver variants recently (I've tested RUG, BUG, BUrG, and UR at various points in the past few weeks), but the Shardless experience has reminded me of how lukewarm I am on cascade, but made me think of two things for this deck:

1. We're probably the better deck overall - Shardless would be king of the format if you could run counterspells at 1 and 2 mana, but you can't, and sometimes your opponent is going to just topdeck the nuts and you won't be able to out-value them.

2. Strix vs. Deluge has a lot of implications, and I think that Strix is still the better maindeck choice in the broader US meta right now. I really like the idea of shoring up the Delver matchups and honestly of just having another value threat, even if it's small. Strix + Jitte is comically effective. I'll lose more game 1s to D&T and Elves, but Deluge and Charm out of the board should make up for that.

As I come back to Control, I'll probably play something like this:


Land (22)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island or Forest

Planeswalkers (5)
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Disruption/Removal (16)
4 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Disfigure or Diabolic Edict
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

Creatures (11)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Baleful Strix
1 Vendilion Clique

Draw/Manipulation(7)
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

Sideboard (15)
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Sylvan Library
1 Krosan Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Golgari Charm
1 Force of Will
1 Abrupt Decay

It's 61 cards, which means I'd likely cut the 2nd Ponder, the MD Inquisition, or one of the Counterspells, but it's a starting point. Edict vs. Disfigure is probably meta dependent but I do like the ability to kill creatures like Griselbrand and Nimble Mongoose at instant speed even if it's more expensive, and being able to kill things bigger than X/2 is relevant, while Jitte probably has most dorks covered. I'm not sure what the second basic should be (or if it should be), but I did like Accart's Swamp + Forest manabase in Shardless. I haven't counted up colored mana symbols yet, but the above list is probably similarly colored-mana hungry, but needs BU rather than BG. As I write this, I think maybe Mana Leak or Negate could work over Counterspell, and I'll test those.

[btm10]

Sorry to double post, but I'm wondering what people's thoughts on Dig Through Time are. I'm not totally sure what slots I'm going to test it in, but I'm going to test it somewhere. It seems like exactly the card I want in the midgame.

[FoolofaTook]

On Liliana, the more I play this deck, the more I've come to think of her as one of the most difficult cards in the deck to use correctly. When I first started playing Shardless and BUG Delver, I'd be extremely aggressive with her +1 to make sure I had the -2 up as much as possible, and could angle for her ultimate. Lili + Sylvan or Lili + Jace is obviously great, but sometimes I've found that you really just want to do nothing. If you have her at 4 or 5 with 1 card in hand, it's very likely correct to just pass if you aren't being pressured by creatures or have a TNN or Tar Pit offense going. Under most circumstances, I only go hellbent if my opponent is also hellbent and I'm not threatened by a single topdeck (against Storm, for instance) or if any threat they do topdeck is answered by either her -2 or my board (for example, if my opponent can topdeck a Jace and I have a TNN or Tar Pit out, +1 is probably a fine line). Early on, before you're hellbent, being able to look at your opponent's hand with Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek can be invaluable in knowing which ability (if any) to use.

Two cards you can consider that make Liliana much less of a double-edged sword are Crucible of Worlds and Volrath's Stronghold. A singleton of either of these makes the +1 choice easier in the early game and if you have both in the list you'll draw one eventually. This assuming that you're really set on grinding, which is what the list does anyway, and that you're playing 2+ Ponders which the list really should do.

[btm10]

Two cards you can consider that make Liliana much less of a double-edged sword are Crucible of Worlds and Volrath's Stronghold. A singleton of either of these makes the +1 choice easier in the early game and if you have both in the list you'll draw one eventually. This assuming that you're really set on grinding, which is what the list does anyway, and that you're playing 2+ Ponders which the list really should do.

Space in this deck is ludicrously tight as it is without an additional nonbasic that doesn't make colored mana or an expensive artifact with limited utility. I could see Loam being fine out of the board in the grindier matchups (Lands, Jund, Shardless, etc.), but the frequency with which I don't want to +1 Liliana and feel like I'm significantly worse off for it is pretty low. I'd love to run additional Ponders, but it's now competing with Dig Through Time for the midgame draw/manipulation slot(s), and it may get cut entirely if Dig turns out to be better than I expect.

[anwei]

I would for sure test Dig Through Time, and I think I also like Loam in the board for grindy matches. I wouldn't hate trying a Stronghold over the 2nd Tar Pit, which I'm iffy on (bc CIP tapped) anyway.

[btm10]

I like Stronghold if we move to a more Landstill-like build or we end up with some sort of creature (more Strixes or Snaps, I guess) that we want to recur. For Strix recursion I prefer to just use Golgari Charm's regenerate ability, even though you don't get to draw off of it again. Loam + Snapcaster + Stronghold seems strong in long games, but it does make your spells 1-shot and more expensive. I'm a big fan of Tar Pit, though CIPT is admittedly a bit clunky if you don't make it your first or fourth (or later) land drop. I feel like BUG Delve/LoamStill might be a good enough deck on its own?

[FoolofaTook]

Volrath's Stronghold is a decent card in the control mirror. It's not a great card in any circumstances but it can make a big difference in the mid to late game against the right opponent. When I play it I also play a singleton Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and often no basic swamp. Some metas it is very good and others it is not. It's not good against Miracles for obvious reasons and I won't play it in a meta where Miracles is a big deal.

[btm10]

Volrath's Stronghold is a decent card in the control mirror. It's not a great card in any circumstances but it can make a big difference in the mid to late game against the right opponent. When I play it I also play a singleton Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and often no basic swamp. Some metas it is very good and others it is not. It's not good against Miracles for obvious reasons and I won't play it in a meta where Miracles is a big deal.

I think this is probably it - I don't like the idea (or the reality) of dropping basics, I'm far more likely to need to get a TNN or Tar Pit off of the bottom of my library than I am to be getting anything but a Strix out of my graveyard, and the matches where I really want to recur Deathrite or Strix are the ones where the extra colorless source is likely to be a burden.

As promised, here's where I'm working from:

Land (22)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest

Planeswalkers (5)
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Disruption/Removal (15)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Negate

Creatures (12)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Baleful Strix
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Tombstalker

Draw/Manipulation(6)
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

Sideboard (15)
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Sylvan Library
1 Krosan Grip
1 Diabolic Edict OR 1 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Golgari Charm
1 Spell Pierce

I think I'll trim the Ponder and either a Force or the Negate (probably the former) for 2 Dig Through Time once I get them. I really don't like losing the 4th Force, but I feel a little safer with the Negate giving me a full 4 MD counters. I'm extremely torn on basic Forest vs. basic Island, and will likely change -1 Trop, -1 Forest, +1 Bayou, +1 Island if I go to 2 Digs; I think there would be too many UU spells with no basic Island otherwise.

[btm10]

So Tombstalker is great as an additional threat, but Dig Through Time is straight-up amazing. I need to test Treasure Cruise in the same slots.

In other news - has everyone just switched to Delver and Treasure Cruise? I'm very divided between the two decks right now. Unlike anwei, I think that Daze is the worst card in Delver, and the thing I like about Delver is well, Delver. The handful of games you just get to lay down a 3/2 on turn 1 and force your opponent to deal with it are very helpful. They aren't quite free wins because the Delver shell runs the risk of drawing too many or not enough threats in a way we don't, but there's something to be said for speed.

[anwei]

Yea, I still like this deck, and I think I like it even more in the new scramble-to-figure-out-delve world. I like DRS, and like 3 colors, and like Decay for removal. Dimir Charm - as the Team America thread has been discussing - has gotten better as a mid-late game counter for Treasure Cruise.
Treasure Cruise or Dig Through Time (2/2 split?) fill part of the niche I had sought with Goyf in having better topdecks with Lily active, and they keep a good balance on reasonable-but-not-extreme GY usage.
During the school year, I have almost no time to play, but I still think this deck is very reasonable.

[FoolofaTook]

Yea, I still like this deck, and I think I like it even more in the new scramble-to-figure-out-delve world. I like DRS, and like 3 colors, and like Decay for removal. Dimir Charm - as the Team America thread has been discussing - has gotten better as a mid-late game counter for Treasure Cruise.
Treasure Cruise or Dig Through Time (2/2 split?) fill part of the niche I had sought with Goyf in having better topdecks with Lily active, and they keep a good balance on reasonable-but-not-extreme GY usage.
During the school year, I have almost no time to play, but I still think this deck is very reasonable.

2 TC and 1 DTT is a really good split in a list playing 4 Ponder. You get some crazy late game sequences doing that where a DTT on opponent's EoT leads to a TC or 2 on your turn with Ponders interspersed to get the GY full for delving again.

I had a game where I looked at 25 cards from opponent's EoT to the end of my first main. Didn't happen to save me but that was bad luck more than anything else.

2 TC and 2 DTT might lead to consistency issues early. I have mulled a hand that had DTT and TC in it at the start with 3 land because I knew I wouldn't live to play either of them.

[FoolofaTook]

This is the list I'm testing right now. As usual for my tests in this meta it is light on discard and Liliana is absent. More counters and removal are the trade-off.

Lands (21)

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Soldevi Excavations
3 Wasteland

Dudes (12)

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


Dig (11)

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Dig Through Time
1 Sylvan Library

Counters/Removal (16)

4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
2 Dimir Charm
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Disfigure

SB is up in the air at the moment and one of the options is a transform to CB/Top with half of it.

[Einherjer]

I've started a Twitter (@Miracle_Dude) series called #FridayLegacyDecklists, where I post new Legacy decklists every Friday. Additionally I'll post these lists in the respective deckthreads here on TheSource as well, with the hashtag #FLD. I will not have the time to go into detail in advance, but if you have any questions just let me know :)

#FLD

4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Wasteland
1 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Life from the Loam
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Scavenging Ooze
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Disfigure
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Night of Souls' Betrayal
3 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Dig Through Time
1 Verdant Catacombs
SB: 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
SB: 4 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Hydroblast
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll


Greetings

[jedi_gof]

Cool idea mate.
Will you be elaborating on the decks on twitter or are these just take it or leave it lists? Of course would be much more interesting read with some explantion on how you settled on your specific 75.

-jedi

[Einherjer]

Hey,
thanks, what I will not do (right now) is writing up a primer for everything. But as soon as ideas pop up I'd gladly answer them. :)

EDIT: But I could see myself writing more about the lists, to be honest. Just not today. :)

Greetings

[jedi_gof]

Ok, yeah thats was what i was thinking. No primer needed, those exists here already and would be an enourmous task, for which there would be only a very small return!

But some explanations as to why you chose something that differs from the concensus builds would make it a much more interesting read than list xx. :D

Look forward to it
-jedi

[Einherjer]

Ah fuck it, why not now.

Quick version:

This deck tries to (ab)use cards that break the symmetry of the tierdecks = Counterbalance+Night of Souls Betrayal. These cards can't be left unattended by most decks and provide enourmos advantage one way or another. The creature suite was chosen to suppress TC/DTT while being off the radar in regards to removal and being immune to Night of Souls Betrayal. Combo isn't really prevelant right now and this deck is better vs Token than vs Combo. The board, on the other hand focuses on shoring up these MUs. Only 2 DTT as I want to minimize the impact of other dedicated hatedecks vs TC. Additionally, there is Life from the Loam that works just as good as TC while being way easier to cast and adaptable. Wasteland is a card thats pretty good now. Casting them every turn is nothing that modern decks can deal with. Cephalid Colliseum is a pretty spicey and unknown loam target and allows you to do pretty nice moves.

This deck preys on decks that prefer to rely on Delver and Token (like Pyromancer/Mentor) while also having access to Counterbalance, which is literally good in every MU. postboard it thrives to rip Miracles and Combo apart.

So, but now back to work. :O

Greetings

[blackdiamonds]

I Played my version of Gfabz Sultai control deck at an 8 man legacy tournament over the weekend and made the finals going 3-1-1 my draw was into top 4 my loss was in finals.

List:61

Creatures:10
4 deathrite
4 goyf
2 true-name

spells: 31
2 top
1 sylvan library
4 abrupt decay
1 golgari charm (so cash vs UR delver)
2 lilly
1 disfigure
4 thoughtsieze
1 inquisition
4 brainstrom
2 jace
3 cruise
2 daze
1 ponder
1 counterspell
2 counterbalance

Lands;20
1 swamp
1 island
1 tar pit
2 delta
4 misty
4 verdant
2 bayou
2 trop
3 u sea

SB:15
1 needle
2 spell bomb
3 spell pierce
1 pulse
1 golgari charm
1 blue blast
1 darkblast
1 submerge
1click
1thrun
1 ooze
1 deed

r1 BUG Pod Fit 2-1
game one: discard back n forth till i stick a gotf and counter his GSZ and pod, kill him
g2: super grindy, Jace does work until he drops deed into grave titan
g3: super grindy again I get jace n lilly going and tarpit him to death

g2 UR delver 2-1
G1: I win die roll he chokes on a 2nd and 3rd land drop double goyf does work
g2: he goes really aggro until im at about 8 then rips a price off the top to kill me
g3: t2 sylvan library gets me so far ahead while my goyf holds off a delver he cant flip n a swiftspear, i have abrupt decay after he goes HAM on pumping two swift spear and go deed.

r3: drew with maverick

top 4: same UR delver player 2-0
game one i get counter top
game 2 he gets 2 young pyro with like 12 tokes i cast charm and attack with 2 goyf 1 truename

I now can split 30 cash or 40 credit or play for a force of will or nothing
I say fuck it and play vs maverick both games i get stuck on 2 lands and spend most of the game topping to try and hit a 3rd. I lost 2-0

deck was great i would cut the counter top package (2 top, 2 counterbalance) for maybe more free or 1 mana spells as i felt i couldn't always hit my cruise for 1.

[tons of fun]

Creature:
2 true name
4 shardless agents
4 strix
4 deathrite

Spells:
2 thopter foundry
1 sword of meek
3 thoughtseize
2 liliana of the veil
2 jace the mind sculptor
2 dig through time
4 force of will
4 abrupt decay
4 brainstorm
2 ancestral vision

Lands:
1 creeping tar pit
4 under seas
3 tropical
2 bayou
2 verdant
2 misty rain forest
4 polluted delta
1 forest*
1 island
1 swamp

Sideboard:
3 chills
2 brain freeze
3 flusterstorm
2 leyline of the void
1 toxic deluge
1 maelstrom pulse
2 golgari charm.
1 jitte

this is the list i swept a tourny with i kno it falls under more a sharldless list buts its a midrange version

[Madmankevinx]

Now that Treasure Cruise is gone (good riddance) I definitely think this is where I want to be for a while now. BUG has so many great cards that work in a control type shell in a pre-cruise meta that I'm excited about Legacy again. I've been testing a list that I know looks strange perhaps, but has been quite powerful against the gauntlet we've been running it through. The sideboard is ridiculous at the moment though due to some maindeck inadequacies that I've run into against a few decks. The list I have right now is a 61 card list.

4 polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Thespian's Stage
2 Wasteland

4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
2 Crop Rotation
3 Force of Will

3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sylvan Library

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique

3 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Touch

2 Dark Depths

SB:

1 Force of Will
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Envelop
2 Flusterstorm
1 Golgari Charm

A lot of the games end rather quickly with a 20/20 flying indestructible guy just killing your opponent on turn 5. Pernicious Deed is insane in most matches, and where it's dead the discard/countermagic shines. Tombstalker is always easy to cast and against non white decks is usually GG. Dredge is terrifying to face as is really fast combo. Burn is almost unwinnable so the Leylines were added to the board. Jace has been in and out in favor of a third Sylvan Library and a Maelstrom Pulse, but Jace is just too good. Thoughts?

[btm10]

I'd like to get some opinions on a general question: is CounterTop worth running (outside of a Landstill/Loamstill shell)?

From my brief testing, I don't think it is. Fabiano has had success running it, and while he's obviously a better player than I am, I feel like having CB/Top takes up slots that can go to other countermagic (or just other interaction) and is both decision and mana-intensive in ways that make matches take longer than they would without all the spinning. In a deck that this deck can be almost as slow as Miracles, that's not a trivial cost.

The other big reasons I think the CB/Top package doesn't belong is that we're already a highly decision intensive deck without adding Top spins and CB triggers to the mix (unlike UWx, we have more Sorcery speed interaction, Sylvan Library, Jace, and Liliana to contend with, and these are all interacting with each other in the mid-to-late game), and the fact that Counterbalance has become palpably weaker now that BGx decks packing Abrupt Decay are regaining popularity and chaining cantrips into Treasure Cruise isn't a thing anymore.

[jnosrati]

Gentelmen (Ladies?) Tasigur is like Goyf 5-8 in this deck. Wake up and smell the dunkin donuts, it's time to deckbuild! This is not a new tombstalker, its a 4/5 for 1 that's made for a control deck. Has it just not hit everyone yet? Decklists, decklists. Bring it on.

heres what I envision at this point...bug delver that can switch to countertop or vice versa. Althoughim not sure when id want to make the switch and when not to. here's a list, lets talk about it. critique please! lets make this work

Creatures (14)
• 3 Deathrite Shaman
• 4 Tarmogoyf
• 3 tasigur
• 4 delver

Lands (18)
• 1 Misty Rainforest
• 4 Polluted Delta
• 2 Tropical Island
• 3 Underground Sea
• 4 wasteland
• 4 strand
Spells (28)
• 4 force of will
• 1 Sylvan Library
• 3 Abrupt Decay
• 4 Brainstorm
• 4 Daze
• 1 spell pierce
• 1 flusterstorm
• 1 liliana
• 3 ponder
• 2 Disfigure
• 4 stifle


Sideboard
• 1 abrupt decay (hits RIP)
• 2 needle (Merfolk, DNT, fetches …better with thoughteize, +watch for vial)
• 2 graffdiggers cage (dredge, reanimator, elves)
• 2 Golgari Charm (Maverick, miracles, RUG, DNT Watch for RIP , CB, TNN)
• 1 liliana ( Maverick, rug,bug, DNT show and tell)
• 2 toxic deluge (Maverick, RUG, DNT watch for TNN)
• 3 cb 2 top (burn, miracles, SNT… not against vial) or 4 thoughtseize 1 flusterstorm

Other options: hymn, Nihil Spellbomb (reanimator), true name

[Sturtzilla]

Greetings All,

btm10, Dragonslayer_90, and I did some testing over the weekend. Here is the list that I was running:

Maindeck:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
1 Disfigure
4 Thoughtseize
1 Sylvan Library
2 Counterspell
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
3 Dig Through Time
1 Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs


Sideboard:
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Disfigure
1 Pithing Needle
2 Golgari Charm
1 Zur's Weirding
1 Null Rod
1 Echoing Truth
1 Krosan Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Flusterstorm
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver

Admittedly my sample size is small and only against one deck. Of 7 games against UWr Miracles, the above list won 5. The 2 that were lost were do to Ruination being resolved. This or Blood Moon would be pretty devastating. It is possible another basic or two could be added to the mana base. The deck felt very powerful. I think that there is some tinkering to be done with it yet. My first impression is to cut a Dig Through Time for a second copy of Ponder. I think this will smooth out the draws a little bit and make the list more consistent. I was not that impressed with the Snapcaster Mage... I am not sure if he will get cut but my eye is certainly on him. Additionally, I think that in this shell I could get behind 2-3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang to act as additional threats and to possibly generate some card advantage in the mid to late game. Here he may compete with the DTTs but could potentially help to fuel them and/or give SCMs food for flashback. This might be getting a little toward the "Magical-Christmas-Land" end of the spectrum. I think the sideboard is pretty stock except for the Ashiok. I think it could be a real thing... exiling cards with the possibility of making Delvers and Goyfs for free? Sounds pretty solid. Unfortunately I was not able to generate any data on this yet. Please let me know what you guys think of the above list and thanks for reading!

[Holiday]

Sturtzilla, I like your list. I've noticed you were running 20 lands and 1 Ponder. Did you find yourself getting mana screwed much?

[Sturtzilla]

Sturtzilla, I like your list. I've noticed you were running 20 lands and 1 Ponder. Did you find yourself getting mana screwed much?

Well I only played 7 games. I will probably be tuning this over the next few weeks and trying out some other match ups. Of the 7 games mana was only an issue in one where I kept a 2 land hand and a Brainstorm. I managed to Brainstorm-lock myself without finding a third land. I ended up drawing out of it and winning the game, but had I been playing against a more aggressive deck, I likely would have been dead. I think 20 lands is a decent starting place, especially as one is a Creeping Tar Pit and the whole "It comes into play tapped" thing. It is possible that a land could be cut or added... 18-22 is probably the right range for the lands depending on how high your average CMC is.

[Holiday]

Thanks for the reply. I'm asking because I think this deck is well positioned right now and I have most of the cards. It's nice to hear it has a good matchup against Miracles because, with U/R Delver fading away, I think this will be the deck to beat.

I'm wondering how well it handles against Canadian Thresh (aka Temur Delver or whatever the fuck the kids are calling it nowadays)? What do you SB in against it?

[Sturtzilla]

Thanks for the reply. I'm asking because I think this deck is well positioned right now and I have most of the cards. It's nice to hear it has a good matchup against Miracles because, with U/R Delver fading away, I think this will be the deck to beat.

I'm wondering how well it handles against Canadian Thresh (aka Temur Delver or whatever the fuck the kids are calling it nowadays)? What do you SB in against it?

Well I haven't put other decks to the test yet. RUG traditionally struggles to beat through opposing Tarmogoyfs. That coupled with solid disruption and 20 lands should make it a reasonable match up. I think Disfigures could come in from the board to help with Delvers, Golgari Charm might be worth trying as it give another way besides Goyf and Lili to take out Nimble Mongeese. We could go after their graveyard with Spellbombs to slow them down but I am not sure about that plan. Finally this is a place where I would want to test Ashiok. Milling them out and stealing their win-cons to slow them down seems great. Every time you mill three and hit a creature, that is one less removal spell or counterspell that you will need. Furthermore, supposing that you get to use his second ability, that is one more removal spell your opponent will need. It is rather variance based, but when you hit it is super great value. This is all while working towards a win on a non-traditional axis.

[Juice11]

I've been working on a list since the Cruise banning, because I feel that BUG has the most raw power out of any shard. I feel like it was meant for control.

Maindeck:
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 TNN
1 Tasigur

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Counterbalance
2 Tops
1 Golgari Charm
1 Empty the Pits
2 Toxic Deluge

1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
3 Bayou
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs


Sideboard: A complete work in progress
1 Golgari Charm
4 Thoughtseize
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Flusterstorm
1 Counterbalance
2 Gravehate cards
1 Toxic Deluge


Empty has been great in testing. A black entreat the angels, just wish they came into play untapped. I also feel like I need to make space for a second tasigur. I feel like Lili would also be good. I like the counterbalance and tops so far, but if I had to cut them, I would replace them with lili and tasigur.

[Sturtzilla]

List that I was running for reference:

Maindeck:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
1 Disfigure
3 Thoughtseize
1 Sylvan Library
2 Counterspell
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
2 Dig Through Time
1 Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs


Sideboard:
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Disfigure
1 Pithing Needle
2 Golgari Charm
1 Zur's Weirding
1 Null Rod
1 Echoing Truth
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver

So I ran the above list at my local shop's weekly Legacy event last night. We played 5 rounds and I was able to get some games in between rounds. I ended a less than impressive 2-3. I think some bad luck both in terms of match ups and in terms of draws led to this record. Also there are some considerations that would likely make the deck stronger in an open field. I played against Lands round 1 (1-2), 5-Color Birthing Pod round 2 (2-1), Sneak and Show round 3 (0-2), Moggcatcher round 4 (0-2) and was awarded the Bye in round 5. So not a particuarlly exciting set of results. I did play against UWR Delver in between rounds. In a total of three games in that matchup I was 3-0.

To break down the above results further, I think the Lands match up is going to be rough unless you have early Deathrite Shamans and counterspells to stop their engine. Otherwise your countermagic and discard are really only delaying the inevitable. The Birthing Pod deck was just a value good stuff deck and I think the BUG Control deck's good stuff is likely just better. The game that I lost here could have easily been a win if I had hit a timely piece of removal. The Sneak and Show match up didn't feel terrible. I put him on Belcher game 1 due to a shaky start on his side of the table. This led to me playing more reactively than likely was optimal. I think this match up was very winable but I misidentified what I was playing against. I recovered from Emrakul hits in both games to be finished off both times by a top decked creature the turn before my lethal combats. The Moggcatcher match up seems poor. I fought through 3 Blood Moon effects in game 1 only to die to a Goblin Rabblemaster.... yea that actually happened. Game two was very similar. The matches versus UWR Delver felt favorable. I was able to establish control in all of the games and then win with either Goyf or Tasigur beats.

Areas to improve: I think the deck wants access to at least one of each basic land. On top of that, Wasteland would have been great in all of these match ups. So finding room for 2-4 of these would be nice, as would a Life from the Loam in the maindeck or sideboard. I felt that the Tasigurs overpreformed. I found myself activating him a few times and gaining some value there. The Thoughtseizes; however, felt very weak. I think bolstering the counter/removal packages would be a better fit to how I intend to play the deck. Anyway I am interested to hear what you guys think. Thanks for reading.

[btm10]

A super (excessively?) redundant version of this just Top 8'd the SCG IQ in Chicago. The big thing I've noticed playing this deck was that as you added 3rd and 4th Digs Liliana got progressively worse, and the guy who won clearly took your notes on Thoughtseize. I think I'm going to make some changes to the IQ list and pick it up for some testing.

[Bobmans]

The following list placed 15th at last SCG. Is BUG Control on a rebound? Recently i have made the switch to BUG Delver (playing mostly non-blue GBx variants), but i actually don't like to play Delver of Secrets in a deck and see that card as a necessary evil. Playing Jace MD is awsome. On the other hand the high velocity and tap-out style play of BUG Tempo has serious appeal. In that sense this deck lacks Daze/Delver, but offers DTT and Baleful Strix in return. Also the inclusion of Umezawa's Jitte is really nice, since it is a more "permanent" removal then Disfigure. It offers lifegain to, in which BUG has a shortage of. In this list Wasteland is not included. Wasteland can be backbreaking in combination with Hymn, Deathrite Shaman and Liliana. But is a 20 land manabase able to support 2/3x Wasteland? And why no MD Tasigur, the Golden Fang? And TNN over Clique?
Any thoughts on the deck?

BUG Control, Matthew Scott, 15th SCG Richmond:

Creatures (13)

3 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis

Planeswalkers (3)

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

Lands (20)

1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs

Spells (24)

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
2 Dig Through Time
4 Force of Will
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize

Sideboard (15)

1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Chill
2 Disfigure
3 Flusterstorm
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Umezawa's Jitte

[btm10]

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
3 Tarmogoyf
1 True-Name Nemesis


1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Daze
1 Thoughtseize
1 Counterspell

4 Brainstorm
3 Dig Through Time
2 Ponder
2 Preordain


4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest


Sideboard
1 Sylvan Library
2 Disfigure
2 Flusterstorm
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Thoughtseize
2 Null Rod
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Maelstrom Pulse

This is what I'm working with. There was another one of these decks in the Top 8 at SCG Chicago. I'm not sure which build is best yet, but I like that TNN has evasion and isn't as vulnerable to removal as Goyf. Night of Souls' Betrayal should probably be Dread of Night or Marah Casualties.

[DudeItsCorey]

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
3 Dig Through Time
1 Toxic Deluge

4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard
2 Arcane Laboratory
2 Chill
2 Disfigure
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Flusterstorm
1 Life from the Loam
1 Null Rod
1 Spell Pierce
1 Toxic Deluge


So I sold my soul to the devil and did what I thought I would never do. I sold my Maverick, Jund and Dead Guy Ale stuff and bought Legacy Bug. This last weekend I played at an SCG IQ and lost to the semi finals of top 8 to Joe Losset and his Mentor/Legendary Miracles list. Overall the deck is really strong and I feel its extremely well positioned. I can't be bummed about losing to one of the best pilots of miracles in the world. Also, I've only played blue for a week prior to the event so I am extremely satisfied. My matchups were Storm, D&T, Omni, I.D, I.D., Omni again round 1 of top 8 and then a loss to Joe. It's interesting as Joe mentioned, On paper this deck doesn't seem like it does anything, no Delver, no Shardless, but it's actually really hard.

[Cellar Door]

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
3 Dig Through Time
1 Toxic Deluge

4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard
2 Arcane Laboratory
2 Chill
2 Disfigure
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Flusterstorm
1 Life from the Loam
1 Null Rod
1 Spell Pierce
1 Toxic Deluge

Played in a GPT with 24 players over the weekend running almost the same 60 as Corey, I was playing a singleton Swamp and Forest in my list. My Sideboard was also mostly similar, I opted for 2x Flusterstorm instead of the single pierce. I can't provide a play by play, but as far as my mu's:

R1: Bye
R2: Merfolk (2-1)
R3: Bant Stoneblade (0-2)
R4: Elves (2-0)
R5: Draw

Top 8
Bant TNN (1-2) - I'm pretty sure I just punted the last game of our set by making a suboptimal decision to decay his Sylvan Library on my turn instead of just waiting until his turn to see if he drew an answer to my strix (he did). It wasn't guaranteed I'd win from there, but I think my chances at that point were pretty good.


Toxic Deluge was great for me most of the day. I second the opinion of Joe Losset though. The deck just doesn't really seem like it does anything, but it has a pretty good game against most of the decks out there. I think 3x DTT is 1 too many. I'm not sure what I'd play in its place though. Maybe an Umezawa's Jitte? Or possibly a Sylvan Library? There were times when I would dig into another dig and I wouldn't take it because I had emptied my gy playing the first one, or other times where I'd have a dig in hand and then top deck a 2nd copy. Brainstorm helps in those situations, but it's not really optimal. With 2x TNN, running a Jitte seems like a great addition, or maybe even just another TNN altogether lol.

I'm also unsure about Arcane Laboratory as an answer to a lot of combo decks due to the rising prevalence of Red Blast/Pyroblast. I have similar concerns regarding Chill. I'm not sure of a great replacement for Arcane Laboratory, but for Chill you could consider something like Feed the Clans for the burn match up.

Anyway, just wanted to share my experience and my ideas on the list. It's great for my local meta because everyone plays a bunch of chalice/creature decks, so having more cmc 2 and 3 cards is much better than say BUG Delver, which relies much more heavily on cmc 1 cards.

[danpo]

Hi all -- just realized there is a thread for BUG decks that aren't Delver and also aren't Shardless.

Last week I went 5-2 at a GPT with a build playing 4x Robert Maher, list and report here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29910-5-2-with-BUG-Value-friends-at-a-GPT-in-California

Last night I went 3-1 with basically the same list, -2 Divining Top, +2 Dimir Charm. Lost to Stoneblade, then beat Sinkhole.dec, Storm and S&T.

The deck feels solid. And fun.

[btm10]

I think the deck will end up being very strong in a post-Dig world. I'd rather have Thoughtseize (or a Thoughtseize/Inquisition split) than Hymn since you're trying to be more controlling and Thoughtseize lets you address specific threats rather than generating CA with Hymn. Thoughtseize costing one is also relevant for Dig.

[KobeBryan]

Instead of dimir charm, maybe you could maindeck 2 dispels

That card has always been good to stop removal, digs, counters. The list doesn't end.

Also, i think the toxics should be something else since you have lots of issues with x/1 creatures

[danpo]

3-1 with the same list as last time; it's solid.

Lost 0-2 to my meta's one BWg Deadguy per usual, then beat Merfolk 2-0, narrowly beat Rw Painter (three active copies of Robert 10'd me over two turns, but I got there), then ID'd with Jund but played anyway and beat him in a swingy, fun three.

Dimir Charm has been swell, killing dudes like Deathrite and Goblin Welder. Against Jund, Toxic Deluge killed a Deathrite and a Tasigur, turning around a pretty rough scene in the first game. I still suck at drawing E.Plague against Deadguy stuff like spirit tokens but eh I think that's Magic.

I'm not certain it's correct but I believe Hymning myself with FOW sucks against the handhate of B/W and Jund (and also Merfolk's Cavern/Vial) so I've been boarding it out.

It'll be interesting to see how things morph going forward, given the bannings. I'm not excited about Sneak/Show becoming a deck again, as Meddling Mage will be more of a guessing game, and paint a target for Pyroblast.

I imagine the Pyromancers and Mentors in my meta will quiet down a bit too, in the absence of DTT. We'll see, I guess...

[theMonster]

I'm exhuming this thread because I wanted to run a list by BUG players and hopefully get some advice:


4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
1 Vendilion Clique
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Tombstalker

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Sylvan Library

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Painful Truths
4 Force of Will

-- sideboard --

1 Dread of Night
3 Thoughtseize
2 Disfigure
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
1 Null Rod
1 Life from the Loam
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Krosan Grip


I have a bunch of questions, but two major ones:

(1) The mana base. I don't wanna be drawing dead to Blood Moon, but the deck's mana requirements are intense - Hymn to Tourach AND True-Name Nemesis in the same list, plus plays like T1 Ponder into T2 Abrupt Decay. I think the Swamp is needed to be able to cast Deathrite Shaman, but what about the Island? My reason for its inclusion is that, with an active Deathrite, you'd be able to cast every spell in the list off those two basics. Is a Forest necessary in the 75? I see the Shardless lists running Swamp + Forest main, but I'm queasy about that.
(2) Daze. I see lots of midrange BUG lists running it, but is that how the deck works? It doesn't strike me as too tempo-y (except when things like T2 Hymn + Wasteland come up - savage). Since I'd like to run two Jace, the Mind Sculptors, I don't want to set myself back too far on mana. Am I better off with Spell Pierce and Spell Snare, or should they be Daze?

Other questions:

- Maindeck Toxic Deluge despite all these low-toughness guys, or should it be some other piece of removal?
- Singleton Painful Truths - what's everyone's experience with this card?
- I feel like this list would have game against most everything, but any glaring weaknesses? Curve too high?

Thanks!

[btm10]

I've really been liking this list lately:

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Baleful Strix

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Diabolic Edict

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk Relentless

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Bayou


Sideboard
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Golgari Charm
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Flusterstorm
1 Counterspell
3 Disfigure
1 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Pithing Needle

To your questions:

1. I can see justifying up to 5 basics, but it's either 2, 4, 5, or 0, and it's hard to support TNN AND Hymn or Liliana main with more than 2. 1/1/1 isn't as good as either lots of basics or more than 2 basics.
2. I wouldn't call a miser's Daze wrong. I'd give it a shot.

I like Deluge even with TNN. It's too good to pass up. I'll test Truths, maybe cutting the third Liliana.

[Ricardio]

If you aren't playing any delve, why not play bob? One or the other needs to be done.

[Ricardio]

Double post

4 Drs
4 goyf
3 bob
1 snap
2 Strix

2 jtms
2 lily

2 ponder
3 decay
4 brainstorm
1 pulse
2 seize
4 force of will
1 deluge
2 pierce
1 counterspell

4 waste
4 catacomb
4 delta
1 tar pit
3 sea
2 bayou
1 trop
1 island
1 swamp
1 forest

Sb
1 loam
2 surgical
2 engineered plague
1 relentless
1 golgari charm
2 disfigure
1 library
1 deed
1 null rod
1 needle
2 duress

My first attempt at a modernized list

Went 4-0

2-1 bug delver
2-0 MUD
2-1 reanimator
2-1 elves

Moved Loam to mb cutting snap. pierce was not great, gonna look into new blue cards.

comments and criticisms.

[anwei]

(1) The mana base. I don't wanna be drawing dead to Blood Moon, but the deck's mana requirements are intense - Hymn to Tourach AND True-Name Nemesis in the same list, plus plays like T1 Ponder into T2 Abrupt Decay. I think the Swamp is needed to be able to cast Deathrite Shaman, but what about the Island? My reason for its inclusion is that, with an active Deathrite, you'd be able to cast every spell in the list off those two basics. Is a Forest necessary in the 75? I see the Shardless lists running Swamp + Forest main, but I'm queasy about that.
(2) Daze. I see lots of midrange BUG lists running it, but is that how the deck works? It doesn't strike me as too tempo-y (except when things like T2 Hymn + Wasteland come up - savage). Since I'd like to run two Jace, the Mind Sculptors, I don't want to set myself back too far on mana. Am I better off with Spell Pierce and Spell Snare, or should they be Daze?

Other questions:

- Maindeck Toxic Deluge despite all these low-toughness guys, or should it be some other piece of removal?
- Singleton Painful Truths - what's everyone's experience with this card?
- I feel like this list would have game against most everything, but any glaring weaknesses? Curve too high?

Thanks!


My experience with these decks (which I tested/played a lot pre-delve) was that deck-buildling had several notable things to look out for:
1. Always check your 2-drop count, since the clog really easily, especially with the dual-heavy manabase that you mention. Being stuck on 3 mana with a hand of Decay, Hymn, Library, Strix is miserable.
2. Removal is slow, with a weaker ability for lategame refuelling than Shardless in Grindy matches, so I often consider maindeck disfigure (or be ready to lean on stuff like Deluge to get back), though the meta might leave you okay without it right now.
3. Decide how strongly you want to play toward Lily mid-game, which I think is part of the deck's big strengths, since it makes your threats real good (you can play more aggressive attrition than Shardless). She warps a lot of choices, making things like Snapcaster/TNN better, encouraging earlier discard spells, but making Spell Pierce worse.

On your questions, the mana is bad, I wouldn't run Forest (or hymn - which is where you ended up). I hate Daze, for the reasons you say, and like more Thoughtseize - trading away for their good cards into a Lily is very difficult to come back from. Deluge/Disfigure both play well to different scenarios; since Delver is less common at the moment, and the variants often slower, I'd lean Deluge.
If Painful Truths is good anywhere, I bet its very good here. I think Lily (not Mentor) is the card made to go with that, since filling back up breaks parity.

[Ricardio]

So I play modern jund in paper and Abzan nic fit on mtgo and I wanted to build a deck irl to go with my play style.
I hate delver, as a card, as well as daze. I feel that shard less bug is too "all this value and nothing cool" but everyone loves drawing cards so why not. I feel that bug is likely the most stable shard and offers the best cards quality wise.
I am looking to make this my primary and play it at gp Columbus next year. I understand that many people feel this is the least powerful of the current bug archetype and I would say according to all empirical data, you are correct but I believe in dark horse decks and this is one I plan on riding.

I'm working on a different building, taking into account the idea that painful truth and lily work today well so I cut two Bob and added a tombstalker and an angler. I am not sure if flying is worth the potential extra black needed, I would appreciate opinions. As for main deck blue counts for 3 forces, I'm trying to stick around 16ish with the 4th force in the board. I kind of want an ashiok somewhere but I also understand it dies to abrupt decay and does not immediate affect the board unless you are playing against alluren and you hit their combo cards. I have found great success with 4 waste and a loam mainboard, so much so I believe I want another loam in the board. I am playing two jtms at this monent and I've seen many lists with 3 but I feel that is too many, I may be wrong since I haven't been on the deck more than a week.

Hopefully the thread will be revived and flourish through a combination of people not knowing what to expect from something that looks like the other, more popular bug decks and the ability to answer most anything and keep up if not get ahead through sheer power.

I look forward to working with you gentlemen and ladies.

[Ricardio]

I played in a 17 man this weekend and took 2nd at 4-1.

2-0 Tron bad deck - not close
2-0 rug delver - he kept a one volcanic and waste, I got to loam him out both games
0-2 lands - he had strong draws and this is not a good matchup
2-0 Omnitell - discard, counters and a clock. Ooh baby
2-1 DnT - feels like a good matchup. Game one I got to Loam him out and game 2 I got to painful truths for 4 cards

List

4 goyf
4 Drs
2 Strix
1 snap
1 tombstalker

3 lily
2 jtms

4 brainstorm
3 force
2 pierce
3 decay
2 ponder
2 painful truth
1 pulse
1 deluge
1 loam
2 seize

4 verdant
4 delta
3 sea
2 bayou
1 trop
1 island/swamp/forest
4 waste
1 tar pit

Sb
2 surgical
2 disfigure
1 garruk relentless
1 force
1 spell snare
1 notion thief
1 cage
1 nihil spellbomb
1 null rod
1 golgari charm
1 needle
1 loam
1 envelop

Main deck felt incredibly strong. Sb needs some work. The more I play this deck, the better it feels. Lands is winnable but seems awful regardless.

[Ricardio]

I played in a 13 man last night.
1-2 shard less - I drew a lot of air game 1/3 and he hit for multiple turns.
2-0 shard less - I wasted him out both games with loam and got to notion thief a Jace 0.
2-0 bug delver - I stabilize and waste him out of the game then kill him at my leisure.
2-0 reanimator - Drs is strong and surgical helps out.

List

4 goyf
4 Drs
2 Strix
1 snap
1 tombstalker

3 lily
2 jtms

4 brainstorm
3 force
2 pierce
3 decay
2 ponder
2 painful truth
1 pulse
1 deluge
1 loam
2 seize

4 verdant
4 delta
3 sea
2 bayou
1 trop
1 island/swamp/forest
4 waste
1 tar pit

Sb
2 surgical
2 disfigure
1 garruk relentless
1 force
1 tnn
1 notion thief
1 cage
1 nihil spellbomb
1 null rod
1 golgari charm
1 needle
1 loam
1 mindbreak trap

The shard less matchup is very winnable and I would argue 50/50 or so but sometimes variance gets you.
I am loving this deck more and more. I believe it to be the superior bug deck and hope to continue crushing the other decks.

[Tom4ik]

I have been running a shardless-less Bug deck at my weeklies for about a month.

4 Deathrite shaman
3 tarmogoyf
3 snapcaster mage
2 baleful strix
2 true-name nemesis

4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 abrupt decay
2 hymn to tourach
2 thoughtseize
2 ponder
2 liliana of the veil
2 painful truths
1 umezawa's jitte
2 spell pierce

3 wasteland
2 bayou
2 underground sea
2 tropical islan
1 forest
1 swamp
1 island
4 polluted delta
2 misty rainforest
2 verdant catacombs
1 creeping tarpit

[Ricardio]

I have been running a shardless-less Bug deck at my weeklies for about a month.

4 Deathrite shaman
3 tarmogoyf
3 snapcaster mage
2 baleful strix
2 true-name nemesis

4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 abrupt decay
2 hymn to tourach
2 thoughtseize
2 ponder
2 liliana of the veil
2 painful truths
1 umezawa's jitte
2 spell pierce

3 wasteland
2 bayou
2 underground sea
2 tropical islan
1 forest
1 swamp
1 island
4 polluted delta
2 misty rainforest
2 verdant catacombs
1 creeping tarpit


I always feel that snap is meh and often times very mana intensive. How has he been?
Why only 3 goyf?
How do you like tnn?
Does the full set of force and decay ever feel less than optimal?
How are you liking the jitte? Tnn seems to be at full strength with equipment.
Only 3 waste? I love how many free wins the card will just hand to you.
What's your sb look like?

[btm10]

The shard less matchup is very winnable and I would argue 50/50 or so but sometimes variance gets you.
I am loving this deck more and more. I believe it to be the superior bug deck and hope to continue crushing the other decks.

I agree with this (though I think there are situations where Shardless has a stronger matchup, so it's not a strictly worse deck). I've started testing the Tombstalker and really like it, but I'm less high on the MD Loam without anything other than Wasteland, a singleton Snapcaster, and Tar Pit to benefit from filling the graveyard or be good value Loam targets. I did steal a page from Aggro Loam and test two matches (Miracles and UWr Stoneblade) with a Lonely Sandbar over a basic Island and that interaction was quite strong, though adding a monocolor CIPT nonbasic sucks in a lot of matchups too. I could see Worm Harvest being excellent with it, though. Jace, Vryn's Prodigy also has great synergy with Loam.

I'm working on finding a slot for Painful Truths; probably over the third Liliana.


I have been running a shardless-less Bug deck at my weeklies for about a month.


How is the 3x Snap? It seems strong, but I have to say I'm pretty surprised by 0 Jace, either JtMS or JVP and MD Jitte, though you do have a ton of guys to carry it. Can you talk a little more about how your list has played out? Also, I know the Meadery used to stream its Legacy weeklies. Do you still do that? Is there video of you playing the deck? Thanks.

[Ricardio]

I agree with this (though I think there are situations where Shardless has a stronger matchup, so it's not a strictly worse deck). I've started testing the Tombstalker and really like it, but I'm less high on the MD Loam without anything other than Wasteland, a singleton Snapcaster, and Tar Pit to benefit from filling the graveyard or be good value Loam targets. I did steal a page from Aggro Loam and test two matches (Miracles and UWr Stoneblade) with a Lonely Sandbar over a basic Island and that interaction was quite strong, though adding a monocolor CIPT nonbasic sucks in a lot of matchups too. I could see Worm Harvest being excellent with it, though. Jace, Vryn's Prodigy also has great synergy with Loam.

I'm working on finding a slot for Painful Truths; probably over the third Liliana.


The Loam is wasteland insurance as well as the lock against nonbasic decks.
Snap has been not amazing. I haven't tried jvp yet so I'm not sure how good he is. I fear abrupt decay is too much of a thing to try him.
Sandbar seems almost too cute. I thought about trying a ghost quarter in the side but it seems too dream world.
To be completely honest, stalker and Drs eat up so much graveyard that I think adding to the gy angle is too much. Worm harvest is not something I am willing to try. Way too much mana.
The third lily is great with loam. So many times I get infinite value off those two.
Painful truths has been fairly insane.

[Tom4ik]

@Ricardio-
-3 Snaps because I am looking for additional bodies to carry a jitte/apply pressure but it doubles as a spell. This is also why I have been on a lot of 2 of spells. Having a lot of options for the snap.
-3 goyf is tied to the Tnn. I only have so many slots for 'dumb beaters'. If I go to 4 goyfs (which I am probably going to do) then I think I have to lose a Tnn. I do not play a main deck sweeper so setting up Tnn Jitte is my way of breaking creature mirrors.
- 4 fow is for sure fine with me. They provide a lot of flexibility in the early game. The hands where you get early jitte or multiple goyfs force can be used to keep pressure. Plus with 2 truths I feel the CA can be negated. They also can be dumped with lily or bs. I also have a fair amount of combo in the meta.
- I am loving the jitte. Gives a real game 1 plus to so many matchups. Pairs really well with things like strix and Tnn. Also I wanted some life gain besides drs as truth can be a real cost to life esp with TS already as well.
- 3 waste is strictly because of my basic situation. I run 1 forest/swamp/island and have hymn, lily, strix, tnn, decay so in some situations the basics count as colorless. I could maybe drop a basic or the CTP for waste, not sure. I have only been on this a couple weeks.
- SB is smth like-

2 surgical extraction
1 scavenging ooze
1 thoughtseize
1 krosan grip
1 maelstrom pulse
1 hymn to tourach
1 baleful strix
1 pithing needle
1 toxic deluge
1 pernicious deed
2 jace, the mind sculptor
1 notion thief
1 life from the loam


Btm10- The meadery hasnt been streaming the legacy weekly for a bit. I was on camera a bunch when I was playing bug but I cannot remember if it has been since the Dig ban or not. I know for a bit after dig I was on a tombstalker, 5 planeswalker build. I'd have to rewatch their legacies to see what exactly I was running.

I like the snap casters over jace basically because I want a body for jitte and because the incremental damage adds up. If I was on a more controlling build that was looking to attack or be less agressive I think flip jace would be good. I have 2 JTMS in the side. I had 1/1 but I am just such a painful truth fan right now. I think that card is just faster to play, better CA and works well with snap in grindy games (grindy games like miracles are also the games where life total is more of a resource).

I find this deck to play similar to shardless but MUCH more flexible (at the cost of the raw CA/power shardless agent and AV have). This deck sees a lot of cards because of running a lot of 2 ofs you should see a little of everything. The upshot of shardless is combo is actually pretty good. Tnn Jitte provide a real avenue to wreck things like elves and dnt game 1. Its a pretty close game against them in the mirror. Basically this has to get tnn or jitte to break the game or they will eventually out draw.. Plus drs on their side shutting off snap could be an issue. Like I said I have only been on this build a few weeks so still testing things.

[Ricardio]

Thanks for the insight. I have less combo in my meta, basically elves and ant, so force is less necessary.
I never thought of ooze in the sb.
I play one more land than you I believe. 22 feels comfy to me for some reason.

[Ricardio]

Ran back the same list at a 20 man.

2-0 esper mill.
The guy was nice and advocated his desire to make mill competitive. It's great to see that kind of hope.

2-0 lands
I had double goyf on t3 and they were 6/7 each. Fastest clock I could have had.
Game 2 I sat on surgicals and he had a slow hand. Surgical on loam and dark depths is the lock.

2-1 mud
He had chalice on 1 t1 every game. Lucky I don't lean as hard on them.
Never saw a waste all 3 games. Lily won me this match. Always make your opponent remember their chalice trigger.
Also decay was great but lodestone wrecks legacy.

Two ID
3-0-2 first going into top 8.

1-0 shardless.
He resolves all 4 visions. 3 off agents. I still out resource and win.
We sideboard and he decides the marathon game one was enough to show him the matchup and concedes to me.

The deck plays likes a dream. I would like to find room for the 4th decay. Other than that mainboard felt great and the sb can mold with the meta. Surgical is great against lands. Specifically dark depths.

[Tom4ik]

I played a 20 man 4 rounder saturday. Replaced a MD TS with a Goyf to go up to 4.

2-0'd Junk. Game 1 he got threat light so back to back force once I had goyf + tnn was enough tempo. Game 2 my hand was bayou, 2 waste, 2 deathrite, 2 goyf. next 2 drawsteps were goyf/waste. That game was easy mode.

2-0'd Shardless. Game 1 was the exact reason I am on truths over agent/AV. He top decked visions..ok suspend, I draw truths, gas up and kill him before the turn before he gets 3 cards.

1-2 Big red This was the guy on SCG a bit ago on the big red. Turn 1 moon gets game one as I have 3 fetches in hand. Game 2 He is on the chalice plan but I just beat face with goyf. Game 2 I pierce turn 2 moon but misplay and do not brainstorm main phase and play needle on sneak. I get hit with a grisel, wurmcoil and a 15/15... and he would have had 2 3/3s and 3 5/5s after the sac haha. oh well. lesson learned.

2-0'd belcher.... it was belcher. I had a chill in my board so game 2 I force smth turn 1 and play chill then lily.

Deck felt very smooth.

[Ricardio]

I played a 20 man 4 rounder saturday. Replaced a MD TS with a Goyf to go up to 4.

2-0'd Junk. Game 1 he got threat light so back to back force once I had goyf + tnn was enough tempo. Game 2 my hand was bayou, 2 waste, 2 deathrite, 2 goyf. next 2 drawsteps were goyf/waste. That game was easy mode.

2-0'd Shardless. Game 1 was the exact reason I am on truths over agent/AV. He top decked visions..ok suspend, I draw truths, gas up and kill him before the turn before he gets 3 cards.

1-2 Big red This was the guy on SCG a bit ago on the big red. Turn 1 moon gets game one as I have 3 fetches in hand. Game 2 He is on the chalice plan but I just beat face with goyf. Game 2 I pierce turn 2 moon but misplay and do not brainstorm main phase and play needle on sneak. I get hit with a grisel, wurmcoil and a 15/15... and he would have had 2 3/3s and 3 5/5s after the sac haha. oh well. lesson learned.

2-0'd belcher.... it was belcher. I had a chill in my board so game 2 I force smth turn 1 and play chill then lily.

Deck felt very smooth.

Big red seems like a sketchy matchup. Otherwise solid report and great finish.
Truths is really good.

[Tom4ik]

I think Big red is an Ok matchup. Dangerous in the same way keeping a non fow hand is dangerous against belcher. We have basics to fetch for if we have a couple turns, we have decay for chalices to go along with discard so a lot of early game interaction. I def think it was a mistake to not put the needle in play but I wanted to hold up pierce instead. Sol lands and petals made that a no go.

I was pleased with truths. That card was amazing. 3 mana is in the perfect spot of playing it after the first few turns once you need to gas up.

[Manipulato]

Why do you guys play 2 Painful Truths over 2 Sylvan Library?

[Ricardio]

Why do you guys play 2 Painful Truths over 2 Sylvan Library?

Library can be removed without any value gained. Truths is immediate. Library is more often selection and not advantage. I just want raw and advantage because I feel my cards are better than my opponents.

[fluuu]

Can u post ur list plz?

[Tom4ik]

Library is slower, and 4 life a card is a lot more than 1 life per card. I also play snapcaster so countered or discarded truths can be flashbacked. I honestly dont like library in blue decks. In things like jund or junk or elves where you have limited card draw/selection it is a great card to have, but its doesnt fulfill the role of refilling a hand as easily as truth. I have 4 bs/2 ponder for selection and so truths is filling the need for raw card count. 3 cards for 3 mana and 3 life and getting them immediately which is big in matchups where you are looking to continue to develop or hunt for certain cards (like force) the difference is huge.

@fluu- Both Ricardio and I have our lists 1 page back. (+/- a few cards)

[Ricardio]

Library is slower, and 4 life a card is a lot more than 1 life per card. I also play snapcaster so countered or discarded truths can be flashbacked. I honestly dont like library in blue decks. In things like jund or junk or elves where you have limited card draw/selection it is a great card to have, but its doesnt fulfill the role of refilling a hand as easily as truth. I have 4 bs/2 ponder for selection and so truths is filling the need for raw card count. 3 cards for 3 mana and 3 life and getting them immediately which is big in matchups where you are looking to continue to develop or hunt for certain cards (like force) the difference is huge.

@fluu- Both Ricardio and I have our lists 1 page back. (+/- a few cards)

I 100% agree. I'm not as high on snap but I see how it can be amazing. Tombstalker has been pretty good. I need to find room for a 4th decay. May be in the side though.

[btm10]

I haven't had a chance to take this to a real event in a bit, but 4-1 in practice matches (beat Miracles, Grixis Delver, TES, and MUD, lost to D&T) with this list tonight.

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 True-Name Nemesis

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk Relentless

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Painful Truths

4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Murderous Cut

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Bayou

Sideboard

2 Flusterstorm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Disfigure
2 Duress
1 Golgari Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Sylvan Library
1 Envelop

I really like the Sylvan Library in grindy matchups like Shardless and Miracles where card quality is going to matter simply because the games will go long, or in matchups where I want to be maximally mana efficient while still hitting my land drops, like Delver or Death and Taxes. I'd love to find room for a Loam in the 75, but there just isn't enough recursion in the deck to maximize it, so it's mostly to hit land drops and occasionally Wasteland lock people. We're worse at the Wasteland game than Delver is, and more and more people are just running some number of basics anyway, so the latter plan is pretty weak. Snapcaster is great, and I couldn't dream of cutting him. It may even take the second (or third) Snapcaster Mage to push me toward Loam. I'm basically conceding the Lands matchup with this configuration, but short of hurting other matchups to get it to maybe 40% postboard I don't think there's a reasonable path forward there.

EDIT: Sideboard only had 13 cards listed. Added Duress.

[Ricardio]

I haven't had a chance to take this to a real event in a bit, but 4-1 in practice matches (beat Miracles, Grixis Delver, TES, and MUD, lost to D&T) with this list tonight.

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 True-Name Nemesis

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk Relentless

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Painful Truths

4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Murderous Cut

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Bayou

Sideboard

2 Flusterstorm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Disfigure
1 Golgari Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Sylvan Library
1 Envelop

I really like the Sylvan Library in grindy matchups like Shardless and Miracles where card quality is going to matter simply because the games will go long, or in matchups where I want to be maximally mana efficient while still hitting my land drops, like Delver or Death and Taxes. I'd love to find room for a Loam in the 75, but there just isn't enough recursion in the deck to maximize it, so it's mostly to hit land drops and occasionally Wasteland lock people. We're worse at the Wasteland game than Delver is, and more and more people are just running some number of basics anyway, so the latter plan is pretty weak. Snapcaster is great, and I couldn't dream of cutting him. It may even take the second (or third) Snapcaster Mage to push me toward Loam. I'm basically conceding the Lands matchup with this configuration, but short of hurting other matchups to get it to maybe 40% postboard I don't think there's a reasonable path forward there.

I didn't think of cut but tom stalker fills the delve slot. I hate pierce so I cut it. I added two stifle to the board, they seem perfect for the matchups we are weak to such as lands and combo. I added the 4th decay.
As for library, I adhere to the if it's blue what the point school of thought. There are just better cards.
As for loam, this card has been an absolute house. 1 main and 1 side. It beats wasteland decks and crushes delver. I would never go below 2. It has won me so many games. I have waste locked death and taxes as well as lands.
I will try to post an updated list soon.


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 goyf
1 tombstalker
2 Baleful Strix
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 True-Name Nemesis

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Painful Truths

3 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Thought Seize
1 pulse
1 loam
1 Toxic Deluge

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Bayou

Sideboard

2 stifle
1 nihil Spellbomb
2 Disfigure
1 Golgari Charm
1 garruk relentless
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 force
2 surgical
1 cage
1 loam
1 notion thief

[btm10]

If we're talking about what slots are different in our lists, I'd actually say that my Murderous Cut is either your Maelstrom Pulse or third Liliana and my MD Garruk in the Tombstalker slot. I'm not sure which configuration is optimal, though Pulse + Garruk is certainly the most flexible way to split those cards over 2 slots, although I do like Murderous Cut's ability to kill manlands. The list can totally support 3-4 Delve spells (especially with Loam), I just don't have room in the list for anything else right now. My issue with Loam in my current list (other than space) is that it fills much the same role that Sylvan Library does in many matchups (i.e., hitting land drops, giving you cards to pitch to Liliana) but can only achieve that through Lands, requires a continuous input of mana, and makes us more vulnerable to graveyard hate. In short, there are few if any better cards than Sylvan, and it's the sideboard card I'm most likely to move back into the main. I'd be interested in seeing a list that runs Cabal Pit, Cephalid Colesium, Onslaught cycling lands, Retrace spells,Tasigur, or more Snapcaster Mages to give us more to dredge into, but as it stands Loam just isn't finding enough business for my liking, and if you can afford to spend 2 mana on your main phase without affecting the board against Delver or D&T you're probably winning anyway. Not running Loam does weaken my Lands matchup, so I'd like to find space in the board for it.

Finally, you mentioned finding combo matchups difficult. I think that's just a result of how you've built the maindeck to be stronger against 'fair' decks, whereas I have to work a bit harder against 'fair' strategies but end up about 50/50 against combo preboard and favored postboard since I have more generic interaction with counters and discard where you're running additional removal and creatures. Stifle just seems worse than discard to me, and I absolutely love Pierce. I could be persuaded to go to 4 Thoughtseize/1 Pierce, but one of the biggest draws to this deck over Shardless is the ability to run reactive spells like countermagic.

[Ricardio]

If we're talking about what slots are different in our lists, I'd actually say that my Murderous Cut is either your Maelstrom Pulse or third Liliana and my MD Garruk in the Tombstalker slot. I'm not sure which configuration is optimal, though Pulse + Garruk is certainly the most flexible way to split those cards over 2 slots, although I do like Murderous Cut's ability to kill manlands. The list can totally support 3-4 Delve spells (especially with Loam), I just don't have room in the list for anything else right now. My issue with Loam in my current list (other than space) is that it fills much the same role that Sylvan Library does in many matchups (i.e., hitting land drops, giving you cards to pitch to Liliana) but can only achieve that through Lands, requires a continuous input of mana, and makes us more vulnerable to graveyard hate. In short, there are few if any better cards than Sylvan, and it's the sideboard card I'm most likely to move back into the main. I'd be interested in seeing a list that runs Cabal Pit, Cephalid Colesium, Onslaught cycling lands, Retrace spells,Tasigur, or more Snapcaster Mages to give us more to dredge into, but as it stands Loam just isn't finding enough business for my liking, and if you can afford to spend 2 mana on your main phase without affecting the board against Delver or D&T you're probably winning anyway. Not running Loam does weaken my Lands matchup, so I'd like to find space in the board for it.

Finally, you mentioned finding combo matchups difficult. I think that's just a result of how you've built the maindeck to be stronger against 'fair' decks, whereas I have to work a bit harder against 'fair' strategies but end up about 50/50 against combo preboard and favored postboard since I have more generic interaction with counters and discard where you're running additional removal and creatures. Stifle just seems worse than discard to me, and I absolutely love Pierce. I could be persuaded to go to 4 Thoughtseize/1 Pierce, but one of the biggest draws to this deck over Shardless is the ability to run reactive spells like countermagic.

With Drs I find my gy to be too heavily taxed. I do like library but I adore loam. I don't feel the need to run utility lands because wasteland does a lot of work. I don't need cut bc I run the 4 and loam to deal with man lands.
It's been absurd for me. I agree the flex configuration is arguable and that's why it's flex.
As for combo, there is little to none in my meta so when I come up against it, I find it an issue. I played a lot of delver and stifle seems oddly versatile so I will try it for the duration until it does show itself to be a poor choice.
I gold fished the deck last night for only 16 games and the deck just works so smoothly, I love it.
Thanks for all the input. I want this thread to live and this deck to become a contender once again.
I truly believe this deck is stronger than shardless.

[btm10]

No problem. I like working on this deck too since I feel like it's less solved and lower variance than Shardless. I'm less convinced that it's strictly better, since Shardless is just a higher velocity deck and seems to have more polarized matchups overall.

As for flex slots and whatnot, we do seem to have converged on a core of the deck, and can fill the rest in as we test more.

[Ricardio]

I'm going to go back to pierce. It's very necessary. I'm loving the 4th decay.

Merry Christmas to you all.

[Tom4ik]

Played in a 35 man tourny on saturday. I went 4-1 into the top 8 but lost round 1.

2-1 Elves- Game 1 did not see any removal. got hoofed after countering NO next turn he hardcast the second. Game 2 I forced DRS and then played goyf into 2 wastelands and he was stuck on only cradle. Game 3 I blew up 2 chokes and landed jitte.

2-1 Rug- Kept a 1 land drs plus bs hand. Got wasted plus bolt and never drew another land. Game 2/3 I had normal lands so just ground him out.

1-2 shardless. Beat him with truths game 1. Game 2 was close but 2 visions went off on turn 5 and 7. Game 3 went to turns, I had him at 1 but never found another creature and his goyfs got me.

2-1 burn- Got burned game 1, game 2 jitte on goyf and game 3 snapcaster chumps on guides and eidelons made for a large ooze.

2-1 bug delver- Very close games but I was slightly more power with Tnn and truths and lilys.

3rd seed- 1-2 infect- Game 1 he got me on regular damage due to 4 nobles plus invigorate beserk got over my strix as a blocker. never saw a decay all match. Game 2 had some disruption with ts and waste. Game 3 he killed me on turn 3 with force back up. I played turn 2 strix and he animted inky invigorate berserk for the trample.

[fluuu]

Played in a 35 man tourny on saturday. I went 4-1 into the top 8 but lost round 1.

2-1 Elves- Game 1 did not see any removal. got hoofed after countering NO next turn he hardcast the second. Game 2 I forced DRS and then played goyf into 2 wastelands and he was stuck on only cradle. Game 3 I blew up 2 chokes and landed jitte.

2-1 Rug- Kept a 1 land drs plus bs hand. Got wasted plus bolt and never drew another land. Game 2/3 I had normal lands so just ground him out.

1-2 shardless. Beat him with truths game 1. Game 2 was close but 2 visions went off on turn 5 and 7. Game 3 went to turns, I had him at 1 but never found another creature and his goyfs got me.

2-1 burn- Got burned game 1, game 2 jitte on goyf and game 3 snapcaster chumps on guides and eidelons made for a large ooze.

2-1 bug delver- Very close games but I was slightly more power with Tnn and truths and lilys.

3rd seed- 1-2 infect- Game 1 he got me on regular damage due to 4 nobles plus invigorate beserk got over my strix as a blocker. never saw a decay all match. Game 2 had some disruption with ts and waste. Game 3 he killed me on turn 3 with force back up. I played turn 2 strix and he animted inky invigorate berserk for the trample.


List plz?

[Ricardio]

I did poorly Sunday so I'm revamping things. I can't seem to beat taxes. I will post updated list when I get a chance.

[Tom4ik]

My list from sunday:

2 bayou
2 underground sea
2 tropical island
1 island
1 forest
1 swamp
1 creeping tar pit
3 wastland
4 polluted delta
2 misty rainforest
2 verdant catacombs

4 deathrite shaman
4 tarmogoyf
2 baleful strix
3 snapcaster mage
2 true-name nemesis

4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 abrupt decay
2 hymn to tourach
2 spell pierce
1 thoughtseize
2 ponder
2 liliana, of the veil
2 painful truth
1 umezawa's jitte

Sb
1 notion thief
1 life from the loam
1 thoughseize
1 hymn to tourach
1 maelstrom pulse
2 surgical extraction
2 jace, the mind sculptor
1 toxic deluge
1 pithing needle
1 scavenging ooze
1 pernicious deed
1 krosan grip
1 chill


The sb could be tighter. The extra hymn could be smth else, it is just a card that I like to bring into control and combo matches. The chill is easily replaced as it is not even that great against burn. Notion thief is kind of a terrible card but I have fun having it in my deck when playing against shardless (as post board they do not have fow and have just disfigure to hit it besides deluge). At 4 mana its a bit much hitting a brainstorm is a lot of fun so there is that.

[btm10]

I've done a small bit of testing with a 2/1 split of Jace, Vryn's Prodigy and Jace, the Mind Sculptor and been impressed so far. Against D&T specifically, he's blue board interaction, making his +1 great against Mother of Runes (since they're incentivized to let it the ability resolve so you don't get to Decay something), and flashing back Deluge, Decay, Golgari Charm, and Maelstrom Pulse without having to pay 1U for Snapcaster is fantastic in that matchup. It's also great with Truths in grindy matchups like Miracles or Shardless, and thd Merfolk Looter half of him is relevant a lot of the time.

[Ricardio]

I will definitely try him. Seems strong enough.

Probably drop a Strix for him. That card has under performed.
Clique seems good too.
I'm gonna try a Revoker in the side with needle.

[Tom4ik]

I run snap not only to help flashback spell pierce but also the 2/1. I run a jitte and as you mentioned having issues with dnt jitte is one of the ways of breaking the game open. On saturday jitte won me a game against elves and burn. Its a card that is powerful enough on its own to win certain matchups. However, it does require certain concessions, mainly enough creatures. If not on jitte/tnn I think the new jace is probably better in this deck, esp as we could just drop the counters and keep the TS, Hymn count high.

Strix actually over preformed for me this weekend. Granted I played against 2 delver decks and shardless so matchups where it would shine but still. I am on 2 and used to have a 3rd in the board. May go back to that.

[Ricardio]

Played in a legacy 21 man. Ran back mostly the same list with a similiar sideboard.

4 goyf
4 DRS
2 TNN
1 Snap
1 V Clique

2 JTMS
2 LotV

4 Decay
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
3 Force
1 pulse
1 Deluge
1 Loam
2 Seize
2 Painful truth

Same 22 lands (4 waste/1 CTP

Sideboard

2 disfigure
2 surgical
2 marsh casualties
1 Force
1 Envelop
1 needle
1 revoker
1 null rod
1 Duress
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library

Mud

Game 1: He floods and i get a turn 3 jtms to lock him out.
Game 2: He has the t1 trinisphere and we do nothing for a long time. then he lands wurmcoil and i draw TNN. We do nothing for a while longer and then i hit loam and wasteland him out after clocking him with Vclique and eventually CTP
2-0

D&T

Game 1: We go back and forth but I land TNN early and have removal for most everything.
Game 2: He mulls to 4 and my starting hand is 2 goyf, 1 deed, 1 garruk, 2 verdant, 1 pulse. Sadly not much magic gets played even though his opening 4 was fairly insane: 2 plains, MOM and mirran crusader.
2-0

ANT
Game 1: I know hes on storm but my 7 is TNN, pulse, Seize, delta, verdant, 2 waste. i hope that i can seize and waste for time and then clock with a tnn. I seize and he has infinite mana but only a preordain so i take it. Every draw step is more lands. he probes me and sees it safe but fails to count his mana and double dark petitions into only 3 mana left so i TNN and waste him, eventually killing him with CTP and TNN.
Game 2: He draws mostly disruption and i get him with vclique and goyf on curve backed up by force.
2-0

UB Tezzerator
Game 1: he has what seems like it all: t2 strix, t3 jace, t4 Tezz AoB, Abyss. I somehow navigate most of it with 2 TNN and find the decays i need for his recurring bridges.
Game 2: He has t3 Tezz AoB and animates his only blue, SotS, to dodge decay so i hunt down a waste with loam (<3) and then jace him while putting the TNN/DRS clock on him.
2-0

Uwr Stasis (DODGE!)
ID and thank him for agreeing.

top 8: MUD
Game 1: I am highest on the totem pole so i have the play. He has t3 ugin and thats all i have to say about that.
Game 2: I get DRS out and start casting spells into trinisphere but above CotV-2 and then i play this weird jtms bounce game with his wurmcoil and then metalworker but i take a lot from lodestone because hes stuck on 8 mana and i need to resolve the revoker in my hand but cant kill his lodestone before hand. Finally I EOT decay COTV and land revoker. he gets jacesealed and i win.
Game 3: He has t1 COTV-1. I open with drs, lands, force, jtms, spell pierce. I let the cotv resolve and then draw a DRS (rekt m8). I end up forcing a lodestone and then waste my opp off lands and goyfs do it quick.

Lost a single game in 6 rounds, feels good. Sb is always under construction. I can explain boarding in certain matchups but most of its obvious.
(wrote in notepad so grammar and spelling are not on point.)

[Ricardio]

I'm going to scg open in Charlotte this weekend so no legacy unless I scrub out. I will be on Abzan midrange.

Hope you all had a happy new year

[Manipulato]

I'm going to scg open in Charlotte this weekend so no legacy unless I scrub out. I will be on Abzan midrange.

Hope you all had a happy new year

Why do you plaw Abzan now?? Thought BUG Midrange is your baby?

[H]

Why do you plaw Abzan now?? Thought BUG Midrange is your baby?

SCG Charlotte is Modern.

[Ricardio]

Why do you plaw Abzan now?? Thought BUG Midrange is your baby?

In legacy. This is a modern event, buddy. I love this bug control though.

[Manipulato]

In legacy. This is a modern event, buddy. I love this bug control though.

Ah, ok. Was wondering...

[Ricardio]

15th at Charlotte legacy classic

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=97585

R1 0-2 dnt

R2 2-1 grixis delver - Hunter nance

R3 2-0 ant

R4 2-0 esper death blade - Billy Jacques (looks like Zack Braff)

R5 0-2 miracles - Shawn French

R6 2-1 sneak and show

R7 2-0 red painters

Deck felt great against. Strix was insane. They didn't have seas there under $300 so I manned up with watery grave. Effected me one game against grixis.
The miracles mu makes me want to slit my wrists so I've decided to try a badlands and 2 slaughter games in sb.

[btm10]

Congrats on the finish! I'm surprised that you went down 0-2 to Miracles since I think it's a pretty good matchup. Was it mostly a variance thing? And if you've only got 2 Seas I think Sunken Hollow might be a better replacement than Watery Grave. It probably means a bigger overall change to the manabase that just the 1-for-1 swap, but fetching or drawing it eventually becomes the same as fetching Sea, whereas Watery Grave is always going to shock yoi if you need it untapped.

[Ricardio]

Congrats on the finish! I'm surprised that you went down 0-2 to Miracles since I think it's a pretty good matchup. Was it mostly a variance thing? And if you've only got 2 Seas I think Sunken Hollow might be a better replacement than Watery Grave. It probably means a bigger overall change to the manabase that just the 1-for-1 swap, but fetching or drawing it eventually becomes the same as fetching Sea, whereas Watery Grave is always going to shock yoi if you need it untapped.

Thanks! I get very depressed when I play them for some reason. He miracle 5 terminus in both games and each time it was for a goyf and drs. Im gonna try a badland and 2 games in the sideboard ideally naming terminus to prevent 2+ plus for 1s and maybe change my sideboarding plan.
I chose Watery Grave after considering Sunken Hollow because I only play 3 basics and the 2 life sometimes is worth always coming into play untapped. It only came up once on a mull to 6 that the hand was insane minus the watery grave so I explained to hunter nance and played my shock sea. I didn't think about changing the manabase because I was set on playing the grave or buying a reasonably priced sea.

[H]

Well, not having Sylvan Library certainly hurts you versus Miracles. I'm not saying the following is correct, however it has won me more matches versus Miracles than I've lost, but I only ever play one creature versus them at a time. This lets you have a steady stream of threats that can eventually grind them out. This does make you softer to Entreat, but I hate being blown out by Terminus.

[Ricardio]

Well, not having Sylvan Library certainly hurts you versus Miracles. I'm not saying the following is correct, however it has won me more matches versus Miracles than I've lost, but I only ever play one creature versus them at a time. This lets you have a steady stream of threats that can eventually grind them out. This does make you softer to Entreat, but I hate being blown out by Terminus.

Maybe a library is right. Game 1 the clock wasn't fast enough so I over committed. then g2 I tried to do one at a time and then he played jtms and started fatesealing me so I had to play more than one. I am not sure about garruk. He won me a game against esperblade but anything could have at that point.

[btm10]

Well, not having Sylvan Library certainly hurts you versus Miracles. I'm not saying the following is correct, however it has won me more matches versus Miracles than I've lost, but I only ever play one creature versus them at a time. This lets you have a steady stream of threats that can eventually grind them out. This does make you softer to Entreat, but I hate being blown out by Terminus.

I'm the absolute greediest when it comes to playing against Miracles, so as long as I'm up on cards my goal is to kill them as quickly as possible without letting Terminus put them back to parity. This is slightly risky because we aren't as resilient in the face of Terminus as Shardless, but I think it's usually worth it to make them have it since they have inevitability unless they're running Mentor.

[Ricardio]

I'm the absolute greediest when it comes to playing against Miracles, so as long as I'm up on cards my goal is to kill them as quickly as possible without letting Terminus put them back to parity. This is slightly risky because we aren't as resilient in the face of Terminus as Shardless, but I think it's usually worth it to make them have it since they have inevitability unless they're running Mentor.

I agree with speed. My mental game plan is just very poor against miracles. It's abysmal to play against especially since I play legacy to have fun.
I'm gonna try the badlands and games for now. The dnt matchup is fine.

[H]

I agree with speed. My mental game plan is just very poor against miracles. It's abysmal to play against especially since I play legacy to have fun.
I'm gonna try the badlands and games for now. The dnt matchup is fine.

Well, I don't think the Badlands plan is bad, I just feel like maybe just slightly unnecessary.

I really can't say my plan is the best, but the patient approach will really separate the better Miracles players from the poor ones. I can generally beat any poor Miracles players with a never ending stream of threats. The better players can navigate it to a greater degree, but it certainly puts a great deal of pressure on them. I feel like their deck is always looking to get value, so I look to deny it at all costs. This means I don't let them 2-1 off Terminus, I lock out Top as soon as possible, and always run a Sylvan Library so when they do Swords, it gets me more cards. I will also sometimes board in a Surgical to hit Swords, so that Snapcaster isn't a real answer for them.

[Ricardio]

Well, I don't think the Badlands plan is bad, I just feel like maybe just slightly unnecessary.

I really can't say my plan is the best, but the patient approach will really separate the better Miracles players from the poor ones. I can generally beat any poor Miracles players with a never ending stream of threats. The better players can navigate it to a greater degree, but it certainly puts a great deal of pressure on them. I feel like their deck is always looking to get value, so I look to deny it at all costs. This means I don't let them 2-1 off Terminus, I lock out Top as soon as possible, and always run a Sylvan Library so when they do Swords, it gets me more cards. I will also sometimes board in a Surgical to hit Swords, so that Snapcaster isn't a real answer for them.

That sounds like a good plan. I just know that games can lock things up tight and I hate miracles so hopefully I can bend them over and show them where the Angels don't entreat.

[H]

That sounds like a good plan. I just know that games can lock things up tight and I hate miracles so hopefully I can bend them over and show them where the Angels don't entreat.

What is your usual sideboard plan versus them?

[Tom4ik]

I remove jitte, lilys, and strix and bring in Jaces, my thief, pulse, needle, grip.