[Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

[btm10]

Removing Liliana seems bad unless you have a ton of reactive cards. For reference, here's my list:



4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
2 Painful Truths
1 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library


4 Force of Will
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
1 Daze
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Counterspell

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Bayou

Sideboard
2 Duress
2 Flusterstorm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Disfigure
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Golgari Charm
1 Envelop
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Abrupt Decay

Against Miracles, I'll board:

-2 Wasteland
-3 Tarmogoyf
-1 Daze
-2 Force of Will
+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Null Rod
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Garruk Relentless
+1 Abrupt Decay
+1 Envelop
+1 Vendilion Clique

The idea is to upgrade the Goyfs to Clique and Garruk, attack Top, and be able to fend off Entreat. There's an argument for leaving a Wasteland or a Force in and trimming Deluge instead, but that's only if you're sure they aren't on Mentor postboard. If they ARE on mentor I support leaving Flusterstorm in the board and keeping some Goyfs.

[H]

I don't feel comfortable removing 'Goyfs, because I believe that once we are out of threats, we've lost. I like 'Goyf, because he hits hard and if he is Plowed, it's usually enough life to get an extra card off Library.

I've never boarded in Flusterstorms, since the only thing I really feel is must-counter is Entreat and they will almost always leave up two mana, due to Spell Pierce. To be honest, I don't even like Spell Pierce in the matchup, since the way I play it, it is going to be a long, long game and they will have the mana to pay for it. To me, the fight almost always come down to a top-deck war, the last think I want to draw is a useless soft-counter. In the same sense, I feel like discard is very weak versus them. Last thing I want to draw in a top-deck war would be something like Thoughtseize.

I don't buy Liliana being bad versus Miracles. She has always been great for me. A threat that doesn't get hit by Terminus or Swords, which are the two answers they (usually) run in multiples. A threat that forces them to play to the board, not sit back. While she is weaker versus the Legends build, she is still good there, since she forces the action. You want to be dictating the pace, not allowing them time to durdle around hunting for answers.

While this will sound crazy, I think there is case to be made for actually cut all the counter-magic and bring in all the removal, including Disfigure, if we know that the opponent is on Mentor or Legends. I've done it before, which certainly catches them off-guard, since they are looking to overload Decay with threats.

[Ricardio]

Some number of force need to stay in but I agree to an extent. I'm going to try out 2 hymn mainboard. Seize and pierce seem awful against them but envelop is definitely a good card against them.

[H]

Some number of force need to stay in but I agree to an extent. I'm going to try out 2 hymn mainboard. Seize and pierce seem awful against them but envelop is definitely a good card against them.

While I have a somewhat unhealthy love for Hymn, I'm not sure it makes any of the matchups you have trouble with better.

I think one of the best changes you can make would be to get a Library in the sideboard. I'm not quite sold on Revoker, I'd probably slot it in for that.

[Ricardio]

While I have a somewhat unhealthy love for Hymn, I'm not sure it makes any of the matchups you have trouble with better.

I think one of the best changes you can make would be to get a Library in the sideboard. I'm not quite sold on Revoker, I'd probably slot it in for that.

I cut garruk. he was too cute imho and we play plenty of threats. Mb I am back at 2 ponder, 2 painful truth. hymn was not what I wanted to be doing. I cut pulse, it was too costly and often times just a more expensive/sorcery decay. I did however see a bug list playing a lumbering falls alongside a CTP. what are your thoughts on it in legacy? 2UG is a lot but 3/3 hexproof is no joke. Also how has jitte been for you? I am thinking about trying one somewhere.

[H]

I cut garruk. he was too cute imho and we play plenty of threats. Mb I am back at 2 ponder, 2 painful truth. hymn was not what I wanted to be doing. I cut pulse, it was too costly and often times just a more expensive/sorcery decay. I did however see a bug list playing a lumbering falls alongside a CTP. what are your thoughts on it in legacy? 2UG is a lot but 3/3 hexproof is no joke. Also how has jitte been for you? I am thinking about trying one somewhere.

I don't mind Pulse, but it could be an understandable cut. Deed can do more in cases too. I like the catch-all nature of Pulse, because as a tap-out control deck, sometimes Planeswalkers can slip through and it's a pretty clean answer. Space is space though, so you might be right in cutting it.

I haven't tried a Lumbering Falls but I am skeptical it is really better than Tar Pit. I mean, prima facia, the effect is strong and we'd want a 3/3 hexproof, so the question would then be if the cost is reasonable. While the difference between 3 and 4 seems reasonable, in reality the difference between having 4 lands in play and having 5 is really significant. At the end of day, it's all situational, but considering Lumbering Falls is worse in the face of Wasteland (where havng 5 lands seems a lot less probable), I'd say it's probably not worth it. If you are dead set on two manlands though, a split between Falls and Tar Pit is probably fine.

I'm not really sold on Jitte in BUG decks, for the most part. I don't really know it will make any bad matchup better. I'd probably say that it would be considerably better in Shardless, but it's probably ok here. I'm not really sure what it's there to address, but I'm not pretending that Jitte isn't a hell of a card.

[Ricardio]

I don't mind Pulse, but it could be an understandable cut. Deed can do more in cases too. I like the catch-all nature of Pulse, because as a tap-out control deck, sometimes Planeswalkers can slip through and it's a pretty clean answer. Space is space though, so you might be right in cutting it.

I haven't tried a Lumbering Falls but I am skeptical it is really better than Tar Pit. I mean, prima facia, the effect is strong and we'd want a 3/3 hexproof, so the question would then be if the cost is reasonable. While the difference between 3 and 4 seems reasonable, in reality the difference between having 4 lands in play and having 5 is really significant. At the end of day, it's all situational, but considering Lumbering Falls is worse in the face of Wasteland (where havng 5 lands seems a lot less probable), I'd say it's probably not worth it. If you are dead set on two manlands though, a split between Falls and Tar Pit is probably fine.

I'm not really sold on Jitte in BUG decks, for the most part. I don't really know it will make any bad matchup better. I'd probably say that it would be considerably better in Shardless, but it's probably ok here. I'm not really sure what it's there to address, but I'm not pretending that Jitte isn't a hell of a card.

Deed is great but we aren't a deed deck. Pulse is great I just felt it was a bit too clunky. I originally had deed in the board but it conflicted with bringing in needle, revoker and null rod.

I totally agree on all your points. I flood a lot so I am on 21 lands atm, I cut a sea. Falls seems great though specifically because I run loam.

Jitte is in quite a few lists and coupled with TNN its very strong. I want to try 1 equipment in the main to put on strix and TNN.

[btm10]

Seize is great against Miracles. It lets you push key spells through in the early game or proactively answer things like Counterbalance, Jace, or Mentor while seeing what their hand is like. It's a lousy topdeck in the midgame when you're both hellbent, but that's what Brainstorm, Ponder, Liliana, and Sylvan Library are for. Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm are for fighting Entreat, counterwars, and their Snapcasrlter Mages primarily, with Pierce also pulling double duty against Jace. The logic behind trimming or cutting Goyfs in the non-Mentor matchups is that I want all of my threats to attack from multiple angles. Clique disrupts Miracles and pressures Jace effectively. Snapcaster is almost always +CA and is excellent when they're trying to overload Abrupt Decay. TNN demands a very specific answer - either a 1-for-1 Terminus, Blast on the stack, or Council's Judgement - and taxes both Blasts and CJ which are also their outs to Jace. CJ in particular is pulled in a bunch of directions - it's their only clean answer to Liliana or Garruk, and Wear/Tear alone probably isn't enough to handle all of your relevant Artifacts and Enchantments.

I can't see how Garruk would seem too cute - I've found him to be arguably better than Jace in the matchup. He just makes a 2/2 most turns, which is an excellent clock that doesn't care at all about removal. He's also an incredibly clean answer to the 2/1 body left behind by Snapcaster Mage, and then Garruk, the Veil-Cursed has two relevant abilities.

As for manlands - I tried Lumbering Falls once and found it to just be too expensive, and unblockability is way better than hexproof in most scenarios we find ourselves in. Also note that with Loam you can protect Tar Pit from Swords with your own Wastelands.

[Ricardio]

Well I'm resold on garruk. Haha I appreciate all the feedback. It's incredibly helpful.
I need to get over the overwhelming sadness of miracle matchup. I like to grind but terminus makes me wanna go to sleep.

[Ricardio]

I went garruk-less and played Sunday in a 9 man (stupid prerelease)

R1 RW Prison 2-0 he was new to the deck and didn't get to do much

R2 Elves 1-2 G3 sketchy 7 led to NO hoof ya for infinite.

R3 DNT 2-1 (got to kicker casualties for 2 mirran crusader, 2 mom and 1 sfm)

R4 RUG Lands 2-0 T1 DRS both games and decays for the totems was pretty strong

Played 2 painful truth and they seemed fine. Pierce is not very good so I replaced them with the other 2 ponder but I imagine I will want something else like counterspell or some sort.

I would like to go to 20 lands from 21 but im not sure where to cut, probably a fetch but who knows.

[anwei]

Well I'm resold on garruk. Haha I appreciate all the feedback. It's incredibly helpful.
I need to get over the overwhelming sadness of miracle matchup. I like to grind but terminus makes me wanna go to sleep.

(Re-)Cross-reference Phimus Pan's list from a couple years ago (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=65251), which reignited interest in this thread (page 42 onward) after Shardless was the primary BUG Control list for a bit. He ran 3/3 walkers, 4 TNN, 3 Tar Pit, 0 Tarmogoyf, 4 maindeck Thoughtseize + 2 maindeck IoK + 2 boarded Hymns. Miracles was less-dominant at the time, but this strikes me as a list with threats built to beat Terminus.
I argued a bunch for some number of Goyfs over TNN at the time, and still would but the main improvement I was in search of was a way to recoup card advantage after a discard->Liliana opening ground the game hellbent (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23429-Deck-Team-America-(Midrange-Control-Thread)&p=820107&viewfull=1#post820107) (a scenario where CTP and TNN are excellent threats and Goyf is mediocre). SDT seemed too weak and Sylvan Library was great but costly in a 4xThoughtseize deck. Painful Truths might be excellent in that role, and I mean to come back to this if I put Knight+Retreat down for long enough.

Edit: Oh no! 0 Goyfs, not 3.

[btm10]

(Re-)Cross-reference Phimus Pan's list from a couple years ago (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=65251), which reignited interest in this thread (page 42 onward) after Shardless was the primary BUG Control list for a bit. He ran 3/3 walkers, 4 TNN, 3 Tar Pit, 3 Tarmogoyf, 4 maindeck Thoughtseize + 2 maindeck IoK + 2 boarded Hymns. Miracles was less-dominant at the time, but this strikes me as a list with threats built to beat Terminus.
I argued a bunch for some number of Goyfs over TNN at the time, and still would but the main improvement I was in search of was a way to recoup card advantage after a discard->Liliana opening ground the game hellbent (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23429-Deck-Team-America-(Midrange-Control-Thread)&p=820107&viewfull=1#post820107) (a scenario where CTP and TNN are excellent threats and Goyf is mediocre). SDT seemed too weak and Sylvan Library was great but costly in a 4xThoughtseize deck. Painful Truths might be excellent in that role, and I mean to come back to this if I put Knight+Retreat down for long enough.

I'll second this. I obviously haven't been working with the original discard package, and the life lost to Truths might push you toward a 3/3 Thoughtseize/Inquisition split rather than 4/2, but Truths does solve the main advantage Shardless has over this deck, which is the ability to gas back up.

[Ricardio]

I'll second this. I obviously haven't been working with the original discard package, and the life lost to Truths might push you toward a 3/3 Thoughtseize/Inquisition split rather than 4/2, but Truths does solve the main advantage Shardless has over this deck, which is the ability to gas back up.

I will try 2 ponder/2 IOK/2 Seize too much hand hate can be bad imho and ponder pulls a lot of weight. Loam is still insane, play one.

Side note: what do you guys/gals think will be good in modern post bannings?

[anwei]

6 discard might be fine or high - I was more drawing attention to that threat base: 6 walkers, 3 tar pit, 4 TNN, 0 Goyf (I typod'! 0 Goyfs, not 3).
I like Goyf, and think 4 TNN might be more than I want. (Though, in the old discussion, parallels with Morphling are drawn as a fantastic grind/defense card which becomes your wincon after walkers/removal take over. That's a different role than in Stoneblade decks, a better +Lily combo, and better against Miracles in a Lily game.)

[Ricardio]

6 discard might be fine or high - I was more drawing attention to that threat base: 6 walkers, 3 tar pit, 4 TNN, 0 Goyf (I typod'! 0 Goyfs, not 3).
I like Goyf, and think 4 TNN might be more than I want. (Though, in the old discussion, parallels with Morphling are drawn as a fantastic grind/defense card which becomes your wincon after walkers/removal take over. That's a different role than in Stoneblade decks, a better +Lily combo, and better against Miracles in a Lily game.)

I think 6 is too many, personally. its fine in modern because you have time to do that stuff. I played quite a few games with 4 last night and it felt very good.

I think no goyfs is wrong and 4 is waaay too many TNN. 2 has served me well. The planeswalkers are great at 2/2. I don't get clogged and I find them when I need them. Still haven't lost a game where I have them both out at once.

[Tom4ik]

I am on 4 goyf + 2 tnn. That has felt right to me. Though the Tnn + jitte would be the first cuts if I wanted some amount of jace (TMS or flip) in the main deck. Jitte has been nice for me because it turns snapcasters and Drs into removal spells. It also fixes a few matchups that can be tough like elves or burn. It is also just a one of but that can absolutely steal games.

I run 1/2 TS main with another in the board plus 2-3 Hymn. I also have 2 spell pierce main as well. I try to keep a varied spell selection because I run 3 snapcasters. It is also why I do not run the Jaces main. I think truths is better because cheaper and works well with snap. Jace is brought in for control/midrange mirrors.

[anwei]

I think 6 is too many, personally. its fine in modern because you have time to do that stuff. I played quite a few games with 4 last night and it felt very good.

I think no goyfs is wrong and 4 is waaay too many TNN. 2 has served me well. The planeswalkers are great at 2/2. I don't get clogged and I find them when I need them. Still haven't lost a game where I have them both out at once.

While it obviously could be a fluke, I wouldn't be that quick to dismiss it (though it is a slightly different sort of deck): Phimus did win an Open and thereby put up the best result this sort of deck has had in the current era. One of its obvious strengths (including (especially?) vs. Miracles) is the resilience of its threats, and the discard package (including Liliana) does a lot of work.

@ Hymn, I love this card in the "grind them hellbent" line, but a lot of cards compete for the limited number of 2-drops the deck can sustain, with Decay, Strix, Goyf, etc. (SCM undoubtedly exaggerates this problem, so I guess it makes sense that it takes Jace's place).

[Ricardio]

While it obviously could be a fluke, I'd be quick to dismiss it (though it is a slightly different sort of deck): Phimus did win an Open and thereby put up the best result this sort of deck has had in the current era. One of its obvious strengths (including (especially?) vs. Miracles) is the resilience of its threats, and the discard package (including Liliana) does a lot of work.

@ Hymn, I love this card in the "grind them hellbent" line, but a lot of cards compete for the limited number of 2-drops the deck can sustain, with Decay, Strix, Goyf, etc. (SCM undoubtedly exaggerates this problem, so I guess it makes sense that it takes Jace's place).

I built this deck based on what I wanted to play and I have been making changes to better suit the needs I come across. I understand he won an open with a similar deck in the same archetype but that was 22+ months ago and by thinking 1 win makes a deck, I see your statement as losing a lot of backing due to your only-result-oriented thinking. I have been putting up consistently good numbers and documenting them in this thread. Same with the others who have been graciously collaborating. The meta has shifted a great deal since Phimus won. Take Kennen Haas and his jund depths deck for example, that was doing well, even won an open, and now it is nonexistent. Forgive what comes off as a child like offensive connotation but I have put a lot of work into this deck and I truly enjoy playing it.

Hymn is great but I do not feel it suits my particular game plan. the seizes I play are mostly great except some matchups and 2 more IOK have, thus far, complimented the 2 seizes appropriately. between those 4 and 2 lily, my hand control is at a great point. I am a bit soft counterspell wise mainboard but the 4th fow and 2 envelop sb seem to cover that void. Additionally, I cut the vlique because it was underperforming in its slot. I added back the second painful truth and I have been much happier.

I do feel with my current configuration, I can go down to 20 lands but I fear it will mean cutting a fetch. How many fetches do you want with 4 brainstorms?

[Tom4ik]

@Anwei- I do kind of use snap as the 3/4 drop like a jace. Because of the jitte and slightly more aggressive creature amount I like getting a 2/1 out of the deal. Works well with the large spread of discard, counter, removal plus the bs/ponder digging.

@Ricardio- I like hymn as a discard more than TS only because it allows you to pull ahead on cards. I dont think 1 for 1 discard is wrong but I think the power of hymn works nicely. Of ocurse the turn 1 drs into waste/hymn play is just so fun. I am probably playing in a 4 round tonight so I'll think about cutting them for TS just for testing. Though the 2 life seems relevant when my game plan is also around resolving truths, possibly multiple times via snap.

I run 8 fetches but I think 9 would probably be ideal. The problem is I want 2 of each dual, and with 3 wastes, 1 CTP and 1 of each basic I just ran out of space. I run 21 land I believe, 8 fetch, 6 dual, 3 basic, 3 waste, 1 CTP. Without jace I cap out at 3 mana so I think 21 is fine. I could see going to 20 and in that case I would cut either the basic island or CTP. The fucking basic forest sucks balls in the opening hand soooo much though haha

[Ricardio]

@Anwei- I do kind of use snap as the 3/4 drop like a jace. Because of the jitte and slightly more aggressive creature amount I like getting a 2/1 out of the deal. Works well with the large spread of discard, counter, removal plus the bs/ponder digging.

@Ricardio- I like hymn as a discard more than TS only because it allows you to pull ahead on cards. I dont think 1 for 1 discard is wrong but I think the power of hymn works nicely. Of ocurse the turn 1 drs into waste/hymn play is just so fun. I am probably playing in a 4 round tonight so I'll think about cutting them for TS just for testing. Though the 2 life seems relevant when my game plan is also around resolving truths, possibly multiple times via snap.

I run 8 fetches but I think 9 would probably be ideal. The problem is I want 2 of each dual, and with 3 wastes, 1 CTP and 1 of each basic I just ran out of space. I run 21 land I believe, 8 fetch, 6 dual, 3 basic, 3 waste, 1 CTP. Without jace I cap out at 3 mana so I think 21 is fine. I could see going to 20 and in that case I would cut either the basic island or CTP. The fucking basic forest sucks balls in the opening hand soooo much though haha

I like seize because it hits what I want it too and RNGesus doesn't like to be there with my hymns. Hymn is very strong regardless. Best of luck in your tournament.

I think I would cut a single fetch. I love 6 duals, 3 basics, 4 wastes and 1 CTP. Forest and CTP can be awkward but I believe them to be absolutely necessary.

[Tom4ik]

I also like hymn because it is very busted to hit in multiples even compared to smth like TS. Playing with snapcaster I like having options so having the ability to TS and 1-2 turns later hit them with another or wait and then hymn. I see your point on the randomness though so for sure something to consider.

7 fetches seems low but maybe that would be correct. I am not sure I am looking to cut down to 20 but you are probably right that fetches are the easiest cut.

[Ricardio]

I also like hymn because it is very busted to hit in multiples even compared to smth like TS. Playing with snapcaster I like having options so having the ability to TS and 1-2 turns later hit them with another or wait and then hymn. I see your point on the randomness though so for sure something to consider.

7 fetches seems low but maybe that would be correct. I am not sure I am looking to cut down to 20 but you are probably right that fetches are the easiest cut.

Yes, I may go ahead and cut a fetch and diversity them a bit since im on only verds and deltas right now.

The sb is another thing all together. I love null rod, phyr revoker and needle. they are all great! Surgical has been insane for me, specifically against combo cards like dark depths and show and tell. Duress/envelop can be interchangeable for the meta. marsh casualities to a degree but I feel they are necessary. 2 disfigure should be standard unless your meta is something insane. I threw a library in after the suggestions. I will let you know how it goes if I draw it.

Hymn is good against a lot of decks but when you are playing against combo and the only thing in their hand you want is left behind by a poor RNG'd hymn.

[Tom4ik]

I am on 2 surgical SB but that also has to do with snap. With surgical plus a lot of discard to go along with some 1 mana counters we have quite a bit of early interaction. I usually have 2 additional discard spells in the side.

I also play 1 needle but I havent actually wanted null rod but tht would also be a great card now that I think about it.

I do not like library as I already play truths main and in the side I bring in Jaces in the same spot that I imagine you bring library in. Not that I disagree in the abstract with library but I dont think the card is what we need. I think it works better in non blue decks that lack other/better CA cards.

For additional removal, I bring in a deluge, pulse and a deed from the side depending on matchup. Deed is pretty much for things like Dnt where you really need to sweep up vials/equips as well as infect with manlands. I think its certainly not the star that it is in something like nicfit but nuking the board and dropping a goyf is fine.

Otherwise I have some pretty standard bug colored cards in the side, I have an Ooze, grip, a loam. I think I still have a notion thief but while that is suboptimal probably its always a fun subgame of getting to steal bs or visions with it.

[Ricardio]

I am on 2 surgical SB but that also has to do with snap. With surgical plus a lot of discard to go along with some 1 mana counters we have quite a bit of early interaction. I usually have 2 additional discard spells in the side.

I also play 1 needle but I havent actually wanted null rod but tht would also be a great card now that I think about it.

I do not like library as I already play truths main and in the side I bring in Jaces in the same spot that I imagine you bring library in. Not that I disagree in the abstract with library but I dont think the card is what we need. I think it works better in non blue decks that lack other/better CA cards.

For additional removal, I bring in a deluge, pulse and a deed from the side depending on matchup. Deed is pretty much for things like Dnt where you really need to sweep up vials/equips as well as infect with manlands. I think its certainly not the star that it is in something like nicfit but nuking the board and dropping a goyf is fine.

Otherwise I have some pretty standard bug colored cards in the side, I have an Ooze, grip, a loam. I think I still have a notion thief but while that is suboptimal probably its always a fun subgame of getting to steal bs or visions with it.

surgical/discard/snap WOMBO COMBO

Needle/Revoker/Null Rod do so very much. Try them and remember the differences between Needle and revoker.

Library seems good against slower decks as well as near creatureless decks to draw more and fix whats on top.

I play a deluge main but pulse was not good enough in my experiences. Deed seems great but null rod takes care of vial and equipment without revoker naming deed.
(Needle naming inkmoth nexus :D)

I play 4 decay main so grip seems overkill. scooze is just too ambitious for me, I don't feel I have access to enough G all the time for it to be good enough. Loam is and forever will be mainboard. I cut thief because its only cute. I caught someone with it and cut it that same night. its like playing a 14 card sb. no point.

[anwei]

I built this deck based on what I wanted to play and I have been making changes to better suit the needs I come across. I understand he won an open with a similar deck in the same archetype but that was 22+ months ago and by thinking 1 win makes a deck, I see your statement as losing a lot of backing due to your only-result-oriented thinking. I have been putting up consistently good numbers and documenting them in this thread. Same with the others who have been graciously collaborating. The meta has shifted a great deal since Phimus won. Take Kennen Haas and his jund depths deck for example, that was doing well, even won an open, and now it is nonexistent. Forgive what comes off as a child like offensive connotation but I have put a lot of work into this deck and I truly enjoy playing it.


To hopefully be more clear, I'm not saying that his deck is better than yours or that the individual decisions are right. You were noting frustrations with miracles, and as I said, I think his list is worth cross-referencing, particularly because of so many unorthodox choices. I spent a lot of time tuning my own version of BUG Control and arrived at many different conclusions myself, but he obviously knows what he's doing and landed on some extreme counts of some cards while skipping Tarmogoyf. I find that sort of data point more valuable than comparing other decks that differ in just a few slots. I'd be slower to call the notable choices "wrong" and "waaay too many," even if I ended up disagreeing with them (which, if you feel bored enough to read the pages from 2014, I repeatedly did, in my own testing and reasonable number-putting-up with the deck.

@land-counts, while clearly meta- and preference-dependant, I would lean strongly toward 9+ fetches. I have typically played 3-2-2 duals, 10 fetchs, 2 tar pit, 2 wastes, and 1 swamp. BB is the earliest double color to hit and swamp,DRS lets you play a 3-drop through Wasteland. In general, I've found the color requirements Decay, Strix, Lily, Jace, and Hymn (and a singleton Dimir Charm I occasionally run) so strenuous that I'd rather just power through Wasteland with my colors in tact and lose some to Blood Moon.
I would almost rather cut Wasteland or go to 1 Trop than drop below 8 fetches.

[Ricardio]

I think I am going to switch the 2 envelop in the board for negate. They counter everything we want to deal with.

As for miracles, Zur's Weirding is a weapon but how realistic is it?

Thrun is another card good against most decks but weak to terminus like every other creature.

[btm10]

As for miracles, Zur's Weirding is a weapon but how realistic is it?

I'm a bit behind in the thread but I wanted to respond to this - it's easier to cast than Jace and unless they have a threat in play or a removal spell for it in hand when it's on the stack, they can't remove it, can't Miracle spells, and can't win. So it's very realistic. If you're ahead on life or on board when it resolves (which you usually will be)they won't be able to keep you off of all of your win conditions, and you'll win with whatever you want to win with. It also combos hilariously with Loam since they can't stop you from Dredging into Tar Pit and then Loaming it back.

Negate is great, and even lets you cut some number of Forces postboard.

[Ricardio]

I'm a bit behind in the thread but I wanted to respond to this - it's easier to cast than Jace and unless they have a threat in play or a removal spell for it in hand when it's on the stack, they can't remove it, can't Miracle spells, and can't win. So it's very realistic. If you're ahead on life or on board when it resolves (which you usually will be)they won't be able to keep you off of all of your win conditions, and you'll win with whatever you want to win with. It also combos hilariously with Loam since they can't stop you from Dredging into Tar Pit and then Loaming it back.

Negate is great, and even lets you cut some number of Forces postboard.

I don't have enough miracles to justify the spot but otherwise it seems like a fine sb option.

I cut the envelops for negates in the sb. Hits the same things plus a lot more for only one more. Dodges chalice on 1 and counters jtms.

I beat DnT and the matchup feels a lot closer now for some reason. I will say painful truths continues to impress and goyf is a must play.

[wnorris]

Hey guys,
I have been piloting shardless for about a year now and looking through this thread I am fascinated by BUG control. I have a few questions about the deck:

1. How is the card advantage from painful truths? Do you all think it is reasonable when compared to visions? I know they can't be directly compared as shardless agent certainly makes visions what it is.

2. I see some of you on 3 Goyfs and 1 snapcaster. But I always feel like BUG decks need all their threats, do you not miss the extra 2 mana beater?

3. What matchups does BUG control tend to struggle with? Is it similar to shardless? Or does the more control build have a better time with combo since it can run spell pierce if needed?

Thanks for the help! I am sleeveing up a control build for Monday to try something other than casting some agents :)

[btm10]

I don't have enough miracles to justify the spot but otherwise it seems like a fine sb option.

I cut the envelops for negates in the sb. Hits the same things plus a lot more for only one more. Dodges chalice on 1 and counters jtms.

I beat DnT and the matchup feels a lot closer now for some reason. I will say painful truths continues to impress and goyf is a must play.

I'd never advocate Weirding in the main so your position is fine. It's not bad at all in a couple of other matchups like threat-light non-Delver blue decks and Sneak and Show if they're trying to slow down postboard with cards like Jace but it's not great anywhere else.


Hey guys,
I have been piloting shardless for about a year now and looking through this thread I am fascinated by BUG control. I have a few questions about the deck:

1. How is the card advantage from painful truths? Do you all think it is reasonable when compared to visions? I know they can't be directly compared as shardless agent certainly makes visions what it is.

2. I see some of you on 3 Goyfs and 1 snapcaster. But I always feel like BUG decks need all their threats, do you not miss the extra 2 mana beater?

3. What matchups does BUG control tend to struggle with? Is it similar to shardless? Or does the more control build have a better time with combo since it can run spell pierce if needed?

Thanks for the help! I am sleeveing up a control build for Monday to try something other than casting some agents :)

As someone plays both Shardless and this deck (and basically all other BGx decks), the best ways to think of BUG Control are either as Deathblade that trades Swords for better mana, better creatures, and higher card quality or as Legacy's Planeswalker Control deck. You play game 1s much the same way BUG Delver does - you have to constantly ask "who's the beatdown" and play accordingly - but Force, Pierce,and discard give you some extra play against combo that a deck like Shardless lacks. The approach postboard (at least, the approach I want to take) is to board into either a Jund-like pile of removal and potent standalone threats with an extremely powerful top end of Jace, Liliana, and Garruk against other midrange decks, Delver, D&T, and Elves, or boarding into more of a conventional blue control deck against Miracles. You don't get to have inevitability in that matchup unless they aren't running Entreat at all, but bringing Flusterstorm and/or Negate in while restructuring your discard, creature, and removal packages gives you a lot of play in that matchup.

To answer your questions more specifically:

1. Painful Truths is very good. You make some mana efficiency tradeoffs vs. even suspended Visions, but you also end up less exposed to stuff like Stifle and Counterbalance. It's not an awkward topdeck in the late game, and it has text with both Snapcaster Mage and Jace, Vryn's Prodigy (well, with Jace, Telepath Unbound).

2. This is very much a "win with whatever is left over" deck in the same way that Shardless is. Snapcaster Mage is more expensive than Goyf but lets you pull ahead much more cleanly. I've never felt like the deck was lacking threats.

3. Lands isn't great but it's easier with this deck than Shardless's Lands matchup. I think that BUG Control is just as well positioned as Shardless is but it gets there by leveling out all of the matchups. You aren't as much a dog to combo or Lands as Shardless is, but your Miracles matchup is more likely to be a slog since you aren't as able to just jam threats into a potential Terminus and are a little softer to Mentor as a result. That being said, you've got more and better counters, so you're better at fighting over key spells and have Snapcaster Mage and/or Jace, Vryn's Prodigy, which make the "Overload Abrupt Decay" plan much weaker. Burn is the only matchup that I feel like is bad.

[Ricardio]

Hey guys,
I have been piloting shardless for about a year now and looking through this thread I am fascinated by BUG control. I have a few questions about the deck:

1. How is the card advantage from painful truths? Do you all think it is reasonable when compared to visions? I know they can't be directly compared as shardless agent certainly makes visions what it is.

2. I see some of you on 3 Goyfs and 1 snapcaster. But I always feel like BUG decks need all their threats, do you not miss the extra 2 mana beater?

3. What matchups does BUG control tend to struggle with? Is it similar to shardless? Or does the more control build have a better time with combo since it can run spell pierce if needed?

Thanks for the help! I am sleeveing up a control build for Monday to try something other than casting some agents :)

1. your cards are stronger per card than shardless because they dedicate and construct to fit the shardless visions combo into the deck. Card for card, they lose.

2. i play 4 goyf and 1-2 snap personally. less than 4 goyfs seems wrong tbh.

3. DnT can get pretty awkward with sfm and mirran crusader. Miracles is a nightmare to me. Burn is awful but fk those kids. lol

[btm10]

1. your cards are stronger per card than shardless because they dedicate and construct to fit the shardless visions combo into the deck. Card for card, they lose.

2. i play 4 goyf and 1-2 snap personally. less than 4 goyfs seems wrong tbh.

3. DnT can get pretty awkward with sfm and mirran crusader. Miracles is a nightmare to me. Burn is awful but fk those kids. lol

There's so much overlap with Shardless's cards that it's hard to say that BUG Control's are strictly better. They've got Jace, Liliana, Goyf, DRS, Force, and Decay and that's the core of this deck too. They have higher velocity because of Shardless Agent, but this deck gets better selection and access to some more conditional cards like Loam, Snapcaster Mage, and countermagic. I don't think that fewer than 4 Goyfs is wrong here - TNN is a much more resilient threat and is arguably better at blocking than Goyf. If you lean too heavily on Tarmogoyf you're losing a lot by not playing Shardless because having more artifacts makes them the better Tarmogoyf deck. And finally, D&T isn't a slam dunk but more TNNs and Deluges make it much better, as does Engineered Plague or Dread of Night out of the board. If you're running Loam I can't overemphasize how good Cabal Pit is against them.

[Ricardio]

There's so much overlap with Shardless's cards that it's hard to say that BUG Control's are strictly better. They've got Jace, Liliana, Goyf, DRS, Force, and Decay and that's the core of this deck too. They have higher velocity because of Shardless Agent, but this deck gets better selection and access to some more conditional cards like Loam, Snapcaster Mage, and countermagic. I don't think that fewer than 4 Goyfs is wrong here - TNN is a much more resilient threat and is arguably better at blocking than Goyf. If you lean too heavily on Tarmogoyf you're losing a lot by not playing Shardless because having more artifacts makes them the better Tarmogoyf deck. And finally, D&T isn't a slam dunk but more TNNs and Deluges make it much better, as does Engineered Plague or Dread of Night out of the board. If you're running Loam I can't overemphasize how good Cabal Pit is against them.

the shardless/visions engine are more fancy than strong imho but I agree, there is a lot of overlap.

Cabal pit wouldn't fit in my deck. I want to cut a land as it is and I understand its more of a spell than anything but my gy is taxed as it is.

I played yesterday. 2-0 dredge, 1-2 lands, 0-2 dnt drop. DnT drew insane off his mull to 5 g1 and his draws lined up perfect with mine g2. so many sideboard cards. Lands is just a grindy matchup. It was winnable but we went to time and I felt like he deserved the win.

[Ricardio]

Has anyone thought about thragtusk? just a big, dumb value creature.

I want to play something bigger so I can play it and be done with the game. Closing speed is a need for this deck and I feel that in a lot of games.

Grave titan is another card. maybe something smaller on the cmc chain but hopefully you understand where I am coming from.

[Tom4ik]

Funny you should mention that. I was messaging with a friend playing shardless and we were thinking what card could break the BUG mirror. I was thinking when I played nic-fit occasionally that Tusk was a beating for that deck. Not having the ramp that nic-fit has could be an issue but it is nice in the midrange mirror, it also is good against miracles.

That being said I do not think 5 mana is easy enough to cast that I would want to have that in my board. G-Titan also ends the game in a hurry but I think the deck would need to be redesigned. I think that deck is much more on the control side than the midrange goyf plan most of us are trying right now.

What matchup are you looking to improve with the finisher? That might help. Also is this for MD or SB purpose?

[Ricardio]

Funny you should mention that. I was messaging with a friend playing shardless and we were thinking what card could break the BUG mirror. I was thinking when I played nic-fit occasionally that Tusk was a beating for that deck. Not having the ramp that nic-fit has could be an issue but it is nice in the midrange mirror, it also is good against miracles.

That being said I do not think 5 mana is easy enough to cast that I would want to have that in my board. G-Titan also ends the game in a hurry but I think the deck would need to be redesigned. I think that deck is much more on the control side than the midrange goyf plan most of us are trying right now.

What matchup are you looking to improve with the finisher? That might help. Also is this for MD or SB purpose?

Mostly for turning the corner faster and DnT. That is my kryptonite.

[Tom4ik]

Played a 4-round last night.

Rd1 - Merfolk
Game 1 was the prototypical merfolk start of vial into 4 lords. I didnt see a decay so goyf and Tnn were not near enough defense even after wasting my USea in order to block. I had a CTP for blue.
Game 2 I had Drs into scooze. hymn hit a few creatures so ooze got big and a jitte eventually cleaned up.
Game 3 Tarmo backed by 3 decays. able to just tempo them out.

Rd2 - DnT
Game 1 - Turn 1 Drs turn 2 Tnn Turn 3 Tnn. Tnn is still just a beating for Dnt. The game dragged on but being a bolt a turn while leaving a few blockers back was enough.
Game 2 Turn 1 Drs. They wasted me so I played land and jitte. Now Dnt had to be in the position of killing every creature I had. They vomited guys like crusader so I deluged and the old ambush viper just to pick up jitte finished the game.

Rd3- Shardless Bug
Game 1 I had a 1 dual 2 waste opener. Lead on Drs but being on the draw meant my drs died to lily and I never got out.
Game 2. mulled to 5 before I found a land. Opener was Island (uh) and fetch with decay, snap and lily. I figured this one was over. I play fetch, draw fetch and he had played CTP into turn 2 drs. I play Lily and make him sac. Then I got to decay, snap decay and Lily edicted a few times. That game was stolen.
Game 3 was a slug fest. I got out ahead on board and hand but got wasted off my only blue (with 4 blue cards in hand...) So I have a lily he suspends and plays jace. I lucky get my pulse. Get a 6/7 tarmo. He eventually draws 3 then bs and cascades into another one. I snap decay and kill him with exactly lethal. He ends the game with 6 cards my 0. Boom.

My rd4 miracles oppenent wants to draw as he has to leave which I say is fine. So I end at 3-0-1.

[Ricardio]

Played a 4-round last night.

Rd1 - Merfolk
Game 1 was the prototypical merfolk start of vial into 4 lords. I didnt see a decay so goyf and Tnn were not near enough defense even after wasting my USea in order to block. I had a CTP for blue.
Game 2 I had Drs into scooze. hymn hit a few creatures so ooze got big and a jitte eventually cleaned up.
Game 3 Tarmo backed by 3 decays. able to just tempo them out.

Rd2 - DnT
Game 1 - Turn 1 Drs turn 2 Tnn Turn 3 Tnn. Tnn is still just a beating for Dnt. The game dragged on but being a bolt a turn while leaving a few blockers back was enough.
Game 2 Turn 1 Drs. They wasted me so I played land and jitte. Now Dnt had to be in the position of killing every creature I had. They vomited guys like crusader so I deluged and the old ambush viper just to pick up jitte finished the game.

Rd3- Shardless Bug
Game 1 I had a 1 dual 2 waste opener. Lead on Drs but being on the draw meant my drs died to lily and I never got out.
Game 2. mulled to 5 before I found a land. Opener was Island (uh) and fetch with decay, snap and lily. I figured this one was over. I play fetch, draw fetch and he had played CTP into turn 2 drs. I play Lily and make him sac. Then I got to decay, snap decay and Lily edicted a few times. That game was stolen.
Game 3 was a slug fest. I got out ahead on board and hand but got wasted off my only blue (with 4 blue cards in hand...) So I have a lily he suspends and plays jace. I lucky get my pulse. Get a 6/7 tarmo. He eventually draws 3 then bs and cascades into another one. I snap decay and kill him with exactly lethal. He ends the game with 6 cards my 0. Boom.

My rd4 miracles oppenent wants to draw as he has to leave which I say is fine. So I end at 3-0-1.

Very nicely done. I guess I should look into playing a jitte. I wish I had legacy last night. I had to settle for standard but went 4-0-1 so I guess that's good.

[Tom4ik]

If you are having issues with Dnt then jitte is a breaker. They literally lose if you connect once. Strix/Tnn help that. It is also a way to break other midrange mirrors. I think if you dont have Tnn in the list I wouldnt play it though.

Instead of playing high cost creatures against dnt what about some more sweepers in the board. Smth like golgari charm used to be decent. Not a ton of applicability in other matchups but not dead. Dread of night is also bonkers against them. I would not want to overload on that match up though.

Last night I won game 1 and then game 2 -2 pierce and -4 fow brought in 1 deluge, 1 deed, 1 scooz, 1 kgrip, 1 pulse and 1 needle.

[Ricardio]

If you are having issues with Dnt then jitte is a breaker. They literally lose if you connect once. Strix/Tnn help that. It is also a way to break other midrange mirrors. I think if you dont have Tnn in the list I wouldnt play it though.

Instead of playing high cost creatures against dnt what about some more sweepers in the board. Smth like golgari charm used to be decent. Not a ton of applicability in other matchups but not dead. Dread of night is also bonkers against them. I would not want to overload on that match up though.

Last night I won game 1 and then game 2 -2 pierce and -4 fow brought in 1 deluge, 1 deed, 1 scooz, 1 kgrip, 1 pulse and 1 needle.

I play 2 marsh casualties and 2 disfigure in the board. The DnT player I test with is exceptionally good and tends to draw better than most. deed wasn't great for me and pulse was always a worse decay. You HAVE to leave some number of force in because a lot of lists play some number of cataclysm post board. that card is a 10 foot, spiked Dild0.

[Tom4ik]

Not if you keep a tnn and a jitte on the board :P

Seriously though, I just remove the forces and if they cataclysm me they probably wreck me. Drawing a fow feels like its worse than another removal spell. Pulse is worse decay but its an out to equips and RIP.

With that much in the board I am surpised you are having such a tough time. I have no sweeper main and only 1 1/2 (deed is a sweeper but slow) so maybe the Tnn and jitte are just that good. Having snap for more decays is also a thing. I also do not have 4 drop jaces main deck so i am a little lower to the ground.

Post your latest list or is it the same as a few pages back?

[Ricardio]

Not if you keep a tnn and a jitte on the board :P

Seriously though, I just remove the forces and if they cataclysm me they probably wreck me. Drawing a fow feels like its worse than another removal spell. Pulse is worse decay but its an out to equips and RIP.

With that much in the board I am surpised you are having such a tough time. I have no sweeper main and only 1 1/2 (deed is a sweeper but slow) so maybe the Tnn and jitte are just that good. Having snap for more decays is also a thing. I also do not have 4 drop jaces main deck so i am a little lower to the ground.

Post your latest list or is it the same as a few pages back?

4 goyf
4 drs
2 TNN
1 snap

2 lotv
2 jtms

4 decay
3 fow
4 bstorm
2 ponder
2 iok
2 seize
1 deluge
1 loam
2 painful truth 36
1 sylvan library
(2 I forget atm)

21 lands.

[Tom4ik]

Ricardio-
3 or 4 wastelands? Even with 4 I think loam is not worth a main deck slot. Though I can understand the drive. I maindecked it for a bit too.

Not sure you need that much 1 mana discard. I run 1-2 TS main and 2 hymn. hymn is also at least decent against Dnt as it just strips raw resources which is what they need to accumulate.

Why do you not run any baleful strix? Dont see much delver? I run 2 and its a nice way to have a fow pitchable removal spell. Carries jitte nicely too.

[Ralf]

@loam MD: This reminds me of the old BUG Pernicious Jace.

I feel like the line between pure BUG control and Midrange BUG is very thin here.

I could see switching easily between one or the other.

Do you have tested the old Pernicious Jace lists ?
Getting a good grip of this old archetype seems to be the move to make to advance any further this "in-between" deck.

My two cents.

[Ricardio]

Ricardio-
3 or 4 wastelands? Even with 4 I think loam is not worth a main deck slot. Though I can understand the drive. I maindecked it for a bit too.

Not sure you need that much 1 mana discard. I run 1-2 TS main and 2 hymn. hymn is also at least decent against Dnt as it just strips raw resources which is what they need to accumulate.

Why do you not run any baleful strix? Dont see much delver? I run 2 and its a nice way to have a fow pitchable removal spell. Carries jitte nicely too.

4 wasteland, 1 ctp. 1 loam. it has been too good to me to ever cut.
maybe cut the iok for two hymn
those are the two cards I forgot.


@loam MD: This reminds me of the old BUG Pernicious Jace.

I feel like the line between pure BUG control and Midrange BUG is very thin here.

I could see switching easily between one or the other.

Do you have tested the old Pernicious Jace lists ?
Getting a good grip of this old archetype seems to be the move to make to advance any further this "in-between" deck.

My two cents.

From what I know, the old jace/deed deck was basically bug fit walkers. I do not have any testing with it.

[Tom4ik]

The old BUG control decks were actually more like Deedstill without the standstills. They ran the loam package with factory. They ran Lily and Jace for pws. they would usually play a mix of discard like TS and also counterspells. Innocent blood for removal. It was actually pretty good against the sfm decks at the time. Combo could be pretty misrable though with the slow clock.

I could see trying it again. I did play a Bug Fit deck when DTT was in the format and had a lot of success with that.

[Ricardio]

the multifaceted archetype that is bug makes my head spin with all the possibilities.

[Ralf]

Something like that:

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=2692&d=217396&f=LE

1 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea

2 Snapcaster Mage

2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
3 Pernicious Deed

1 Darkblast
1 Ghastly Demise
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm

1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Life from the Loam
2 Ponder
3 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek

SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 3 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void

[btm10]

Ricardio-
3 or 4 wastelands? Even with 4 I think loam is not worth a main deck slot. Though I can understand the drive. I maindecked it for a bit too.


I think that Loam is worth it if you're committed to Loam, or at least to using your graveyard a lot more than a non-Loam list. I don't think a pure value Loam is optimal. I've been testing a Loam list (that I'm not sure is optimal) and it's below.

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
2 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Bayou
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Cabal Pit

Sideboard
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
2 Negate
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Disfigure
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Duress
1 Engineered Plague

This isn't far off of my non-Loam build, which is:

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Baleful Strix

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Brainstorm
2 Painful Truths
1 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Spell Pierce
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Bayou

Sideboard
2 Negate
2 Flusterstorm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Disfigure
2 Duress
1 Golgari Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Garruk Relentless

Like I said, the "Loam" version might not be going far enough on the Loams - I could probably add a cycling land at the very least, and maybe board in another Pit or Coliseum. The list that took fourth in the most recent SCG event (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=98022) was clearly all in on the Loam plan, and I'd say that it's as much a Lands variant as it is a BUG variant.

[Ricardio]

Loam has been absolutely insane for me in too many matches to count. I will never cut it. you don't need a package to get more value off it so stop suggesting you cant play it without what you perceive as the necessary amount of value. brainstorming back two bad cards on top and dredging on the next draw and then getting back wastelands to cut your opponent off mana is too strong. try 1 and you wont be sad. I have wasted out so many decks, not to mention when you are trying to clock a player with storm, dredging can make it get huge fast.

[btm10]

I have tested Loam and even in my Loam list I've found it to be acceptable but not great. I don't doubt that it's treated you well, but you're also playing the deck more aggressively than I am and trying to Wasteland people out of the game is really bad if you aren't at least at on board parity. If I'm playing the Loam engine I want it to help me consolidate a position of inevitability, not just be a role-player.

[anwei]

I think that Loam is worth it if you're committed to Loam, or at least to using your graveyard a lot more than a non-Loam list. I don't think a pure value Loam is optimal. I've been testing a Loam list (that I'm not sure is optimal) and it's below.


Did you consider Intuition over (or in addition to) a second Loam? Obviously it's slower and open to discard/countermagic, but functions as a Loam tutor that also gets your best lands (or Raven's Crime/Worm Harvest, if you're a psychopath) or pitches to/finds FoW against combo. Small moves like running a single Cabal Therapy in a discard slot grow the tutor/value plays by a lot.

[Whitefaces]

Loam has been absolutely insane for me in too many matches to count. I will never cut it. you don't need a package to get more value off it so stop suggesting you cant play it without what you perceive as the necessary amount of value. brainstorming back two bad cards on top and dredging on the next draw and then getting back wastelands to cut your opponent off mana is too strong. try 1 and you wont be sad. I have wasted out so many decks, not to mention when you are trying to clock a player with storm, dredging can make it get huge fast.

I'll second this. I play a single Loam in Shardless and it's overperformed again and again, it's won so many games on its own. Fetchs, Wasteland, Lili and Brainstorm/Jacestorm is more than enough synergy to warrant its inclusion in these attrition based decks.


I have tested Loam and even in my Loam list I've found it to be acceptable but not great. I don't doubt that it's treated you well, but you're also playing the deck more aggressively than I am and trying to Wasteland people out of the game is really bad if you aren't at least at on board parity. If I'm playing the Loam engine I want it to help me consolidate a position of inevitability, not just be a role-player.

It's not to waste people out aggressively (though that can happen and net a free win) but an inevitability in board stalls.

[Ricardio]

I'll second this. I play a single Loam in Shardless and it's overperformed again and again, it's won so many games on its own. Fetchs, Wasteland, Lili and Brainstorm/Jacestorm is more than enough synergy to warrant its inclusion in these attrition based decks.



It's not to waste people out aggressively (though that can happen and net a free win) but an inevitability in board stalls.

Loam is super versatile and helps in a near infinite number of situations. Easily the most effective 1 of I have ever had.

[Ricardio]

So ponder is absolutely necessary and I tried some cuteness at legacy. Got run over by DnT back to back. 1-1-1 and then 0-2.

I lost games to not drawing lands. Marsh casualties seems unnecessary. Deck should max at 4 cmc with jtms. Jitte was useless. Im trying cabal pit as the 21st cutting a fetch(7 now) to see where it goes from there. Library was great. I am thinking about another way to make the deck more cohesive.

[Tom4ik]

You drew jitte and it was useless? Why? It also helps you get out from under mom if they have to tap to prevent counters.

I do not play Jtms main so my mana curve is very low which helps. I play 21 lands and have not had an issue with getting mana screwed. I might be playing tonight so I can give some additional feedback. I am unsure why you are having such an issue with Dnt.

[Ricardio]

You drew jitte and it was useless? Why? It also helps you get out from under mom if they have to tap to prevent counters.

I do not play Jtms main so my mana curve is very low which helps. I play 21 lands and have not had an issue with getting mana screwed. I might be playing tonight so I can give some additional feedback. I am unsure why you are having such an issue with Dnt.

All the games we multiple ports/wastes, I wasn't drawing lands. it was a shitshow of how lobsided the matchup could go if I draw dild0s and my opponent wins the rngvariance game. I will not try jitte for a while but I imagine its been good for you. My curve is only a little higher and I also play 21 lands.

I am sure I just need more practice against dnt. My buddy is pretty good with the deck and his rng with it is pretty absurd. I will continue to test and see what im doing wrong because that is usually the issue.

[Tom4ik]

Played in the mead hall weekly last night.

Rd 1 Dnt 2-0
Gm1 Get Drs into strix and then goyf. Board stall until I find jitte which eventually cleans up. Lily did some work. He has a sofi that is pretty dangerous.
Gm 2 I flood pretty hard but have 2 wastelands. He has thalia and vial and port/karakas. I am slowed by mana denial. Play deed which gets his vial to put in reevoker. I take bunch of damage then deluge his board away. He tries to rebuild but then I deed taking mom and vial and double waste him. He doesnt do much after that while a Tnn kills him.

Rd 2 Bug delver 0-2
Gm1 - I keep a 6 with trop waste ponder. Never find a black so I die with 2 decays and 2 strix in hand :(
Gm 2 - I keep a 6 with 2 goyf and 2 wasteland. he has a decay and force and I draw all land until the turn I die where I brainstorm and find 2 more land and a pierce.... ouch

Rd 3 UWr Blade 2-0
Gm 1 turn 1 TS into double drs into back to back goyfs. The board is just too flooded and he dies fast. That game was brutal.
Game 2 is pretty normal. A lot of back and forth. He plays jace but has to bounce goyf. I untap into my own. Play out 2 goyfs. He untaps and has a Rip and Tnn, so now he has jace, rip, Tnn and a Bskull with no token. Not looking good. I untap and jacestorm. Play decay. I found my 1 pulse! pulse the bskull so that I dont just die to the suited up tnn. and then swing the goyfs. He is pmuch out of gas. I play another goyf and the Tnn isnt enough. Got very lucky.

Rd 4 the guy is just really wanting to leave so I dont want to be that guy and say fine we can draw for money back.

Only change was in the board. Replaced my 3rd hymm for a 3rd TS. Also the notion thief for a golgari charm. Neither came up.

[Ricardio]

Played in the mead hall weekly last night.

Rd 1 Dnt 2-0
Gm1 Get Drs into strix and then goyf. Board stall until I find jitte which eventually cleans up. Lily did some work. He has a sofi that is pretty dangerous.
Gm 2 I flood pretty hard but have 2 wastelands. He has thalia and vial and port/karakas. I am slowed by mana denial. Play deed which gets his vial to put in reevoker. I take bunch of damage then deluge his board away. He tries to rebuild but then I deed taking mom and vial and double waste him. He doesnt do much after that while a Tnn kills him.

Rd 2 Bug delver 0-2
Gm1 - I keep a 6 with trop waste ponder. Never find a black so I die with 2 decays and 2 strix in hand :(
Gm 2 - I keep a 6 with 2 goyf and 2 wasteland. he has a decay and force and I draw all land until the turn I die where I brainstorm and find 2 more land and a pierce.... ouch

Rd 3 UWr Blade 2-0
Gm 1 turn 1 TS into double drs into back to back goyfs. The board is just too flooded and he dies fast. That game was brutal.
Game 2 is pretty normal. A lot of back and forth. He plays jace but has to bounce goyf. I untap into my own. Play out 2 goyfs. He untaps and has a Rip and Tnn, so now he has jace, rip, Tnn and a Bskull with no token. Not looking good. I untap and jacestorm. Play decay. I found my 1 pulse! pulse the bskull so that I dont just die to the suited up tnn. and then swing the goyfs. He is pmuch out of gas. I play another goyf and the Tnn isnt enough. Got very lucky.

Rd 4 the guy is just really wanting to leave so I dont want to be that guy and say fine we can draw for money back.

Only change was in the board. Replaced my 3rd hymm for a 3rd TS. Also the notion thief for a golgari charm. Neither came up.

Sounds like a lot of odd variance. Have you thought about thrun out of the board? he seems pretty good for the most part. ive been thinking about a more controlling build with multiple deeds mainboard among other things. like a bug pw fit style.

[Ricardio]

I've been very busy lately and haven't played with the deck much.

I hate force. I don't want to play it.

I understand it is necessary but do we need it?

5 cmc cspell that two for ones.

[sdematt]

If I were playing this deck, I'd run my countersuite in the side to crush Storm/SnT, but in the main, just be better at grinding the midrange matchups. My two cents.

I like this deck better than Shardless right now, since your combo matchup can get WAY better than theirs ever can.

[btm10]

I've been very busy lately and haven't played with the deck much.

I hate force. I don't want to play it.

I understand it is necessary but do we need it?

5 cmc cspell that two for ones.

I haven't played this much lately either, but I think at least 3 Force is mandatory. It gives us extra turn 0 interaction, which is especially important if you're expecting lots of people on different flavors of Eldrazi or other Stompy decks, not just combo. Having (hard) counters maindeck is also one of the things that takes our Miracles matchup from good to great - it's insulation against getting punked out by an endstep Entreat or a topdecked Jace.


If I were playing this deck, I'd run my countersuite in the side to crush Storm/SnT, but in the main, just be better at grinding the midrange matchups. My two cents.

I like this deck better than Shardless right now, since your combo matchup can get WAY better than theirs ever can.

I increasingly like my supplemental counters in the board, but I find Force main to be pretty non-negotiable. The part where I'm having trouble is finding enough room for blue spells MD to get to an acceptable range. And I don't think the ceiling on this deck's combo matchup is much higher than Shardless's without extreme measures like boarding in Delvers - and you pay for that in things like your Delver matchup (I feel about 50/50 vs. Grixis compared to 55%+ with Shardless) by being somewhat slower to the board. While counters are definitely bad against midrange, they're never totally dead, whereas additional grinding tools (for me this would likely be a third Painful Truths, a TNN or Tombstalker, a fifth discard spell or planeswalker, and a Loam or a Murderous Cut) range from just ok to completely blank against combo.

[Ricardio]

I want to entirely explore the limits of this deck and optimize it.

Force seems like the rut everyone falls into which is not where I want to be.

My meta is not super combo heavy and it's not a large percent otherwise.

Force so often feels awful because you are intentionally 2-1 yourself to stop something. I understand the need but we may have simply fallen on it like a crutch we don't actually need.

[sdematt]

I'll be trying this to try to be the king of durdle mountain:

3 TNN
4 DRS
3 Goyf
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Scavenging Ooze
13

3 Jace TMS
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Liliana of the Veil
6

3 Painful Truths
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Unearth
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Toxic Deluge
21

8 Fetches (Delta/Catacombs)
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Sea
2 Bayou
2 Trop
1 Forest
1 Swamp
21 lands

//Sideboard

2 Krosan Grip
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Flusterstorm
2 Golgari Charm
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
1 Force of Will
1 Life from the Loam

I love to grind.

[Ricardio]

I'll be trying this to try to be the king of durdle mountain:

3 TNN
4 DRS
3 Goyf
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Scavenging Ooze
13

3 Jace TMS
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Liliana of the Veil
6

3 Painful Truths
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Unearth
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Toxic Deluge
21

8 Fetches (Delta/Catacombs)
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Sea
2 Bayou
2 Trop
1 Forest
1 Swamp
21 lands

//Sideboard

2 Krosan Grip
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Flusterstorm
2 Golgari Charm
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
1 Force of Will
1 Life from the Loam

I love to grind.

Try a familiars ruse? Counterspell, return tnn and deluge on the following turn. Unearth seems awesomely deep! im onboard. you may want to switch a tnn for goyf because of the nonbo with deluge. Also, im a huge fan of loam mb. no seize or duress in the 75 seems loose, bud. I am currently trying a kiora CW and its been pretty good. -1 double waste opp. 5 green sources for the ooze is not ideal. thrun in the board seems subpar since he loses combat to a lot of things. I have been absolutely loving the 1 revoker I play in the board. getting led is big game. No surgicals seems haphazard. OTHERWISE, happy BUG'ing!

[Grizzlybeer]

Hi all, haven't played in a about a year (pretty much since TC/DTT have been banned) but I've got the itch again.

With the surging of Eldrazi I feel that BUG colors can be really strong right now. With that said, I've never really liked Shardless Agent as it's really a grey ogre that casts spell with cc under 3. I understand why it's so powerful specially with Ancestral Vision, but really I think it's so powerful and commonly played because of Visions. So since I've been gone I see that they printed painful truths which I love and I think can fill a lot of the DTT/Visions slots in a regular BUG Midrange/control shell. With that said the following is the list I have been messing with/testing in MTGO.

Creatures: 14
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Snapcaster Mage

Planeswalkers: 4
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

Sorcery: 7
2 Thoughtseize
2 Painful Truths
1 Ponder
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Instants: 13
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce

Artifacts: 1
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands: 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Force of Will
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Golgari Charm
2 Disfigure
2 Flusterstorm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Null Rod
1 Dread of Night
I think the deck has game against Eldrazi with all the wastelands/removal/creatures that can hold them up. Miracles with the planeswalkers/creatures. Combo with the counters/discard.

Really the toughest matchups I see are Burn/DnT.


It's 61 cards (that's just how I like to play), what I am looking for right now is any suggestions on the sideboard. Actually any comments/criticisms at all are welcome.

Thanks

[Ricardio]

Hi all, haven't played in a about a year (pretty much since TC/DTT have been banned) but I've got the itch again.

With the surging of Eldrazi I feel that BUG colors can be really strong right now. With that said, I've never really liked Shardless Agent as it's really a grey ogre that casts spell with cc under 3. I understand why it's so powerful specially with Ancestral Vision, but really I think it's so powerful and commonly played because of Visions. So since I've been gone I see that they printed painful truths which I love and I think can fill a lot of the DTT/Visions slots in a regular BUG Midrange/control shell. With that said the following is the list I have been messing with/testing in MTGO.

Creatures: 14
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Snapcaster Mage

Planeswalkers: 4
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

Sorcery: 7
2 Thoughtseize
2 Painful Truths
1 Ponder
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Instants: 13
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce

Artifacts: 1
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands: 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Force of Will
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Golgari Charm
2 Disfigure
2 Flusterstorm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
1 Null Rod
1 Dread of Night
I think the deck has game against Eldrazi with all the wastelands/removal/creatures that can hold them up. Miracles with the planeswalkers/creatures. Combo with the counters/discard.

Really the toughest matchups I see are Burn/DnT.


It's 61 cards (that's just how I like to play), what I am looking for right now is any suggestions on the sideboard. Actually any comments/criticisms at all are welcome.

Thanks

im not sold on jitte and spell pierce. 1 CTP could be a basic island. SB is most meta dependant but looks good. im not a huge 61 card fan but it doesn't hurt.
Taxes is obnoxious and im not sure what to do about it. Burn is frustrating. chill in the sb is probably good enough.

[Tom4ik]

-I play a jitte main and do not run a deluge or other sweeper. Jitte helps the Dnt matchup and burn so that card does do some work. That being said you do board it out a fair amount vs heavy control decks and combo.
- Do not run chill. I did for a while and while it is amazing when it lands it was fairly narrow. Having a Scooze helps, Drs, Tnn backed with Jitte.
- I used to run the 2 pierce main and am now on 2 hymn in that slot with the 2 pierce in the board.

I played in a 4 rounder saturday
Rd1 - Merfolk
Game 1 Goyf into a couple wastelands on cavern/muta and a decay on vial and a lily bought me enough time to turn goyf into abyss. He did have a neat trick of imaging strix to buy time until I killed it.
Game 2 I keep a speculative hand and he gets out a chalice 1 and then a parade of tnn into image into image. My own tnn doesnt have time to pick up the jitte to race.
Game 3 I slow play into his board of 2cursecatcher and adept. I have a goyf so once he plays his first lord I deluge and he cant recover.

Rd2 - Grixis delver
Game 1 We both mull to 6. I keep Drsx2, TS, fetch waste. 3 turns later he has a lone Drs to my 3 with no lands in play. It took a while but the Drs machine gun got there.
Game 2 He starts with double delver and so pulse takes both of them. He gets angler and I get Tnn. Eventually I get a goyf kill his pyro and the race turns my way.

Rd3 - UWr Stoneblade
Game 1- Keep a land heavy hand and after answering back to back Sfm he lands jace and I am 1 mana short after bs to TS into pulse and I did not find a blue card for force so he forces pulse and pulls away from there.
- I try an interesting board strategy of boarding out a few goyfs knowing he will bring Rip in. With both Drs and snap (3 of them) I think I have too much graveyard reliance and goyf had a few of him cut.
Game 2- He does indeed land an early rip but I have multiple decays for sfm and then a golgari charm for rip. I have a goyf and tnn which keeps his Bskull from doing much. Land a Jace and ride him to victory.
Game 3- Again early rip but I just go turn 3 Tnn into Turn 4 Tnn and with Tar Pit he just cant block and so I take it.

Rd4 Big Red (this is the same deck Hoogland played on camera, this guy lent him the deck)
Game 1 - tomb- guide- seething song- guide- New 6 mana Chandra... I make a game of it with Tnn and strix to buy time but I get overwhelmed by 3/1s that I have nothing for a through the breech emmy
Game 2 - turn 1 songs again which I pierce. I pierce as I have no idea what could come out but pierce could become dead. Turn 2 I hymn which hits breach emmy. I snap pierce on a sneak attack and then land jace fate seal.
Game 3- we both mull. He lands chalice 1 on turn 1 and I just go Goyf into hymn, and then snap hymn. Without a hand he dies to a large goyf.

I dropped my basic island for a 3rd catacombs.

[Ricardio]

Sweet report.

Any changes you would make? Howd the fetch over the island go?

[Tom4ik]

I think the fetch is probably better than an island. opening island could be an issue for the decay/hymn hands. Still debatable.

I had some change ideas BUT they are irrelvant now because this new mini-lage is INSANE! Like legit busted. The grixis probe therapy decks are gonna love it but it will be good against them too by bouncing the pyro and tokens.

Decay is going to be important. Plus, hey, we get to bounce our snaps back to hand and replay all those spells :)

[Ricardio]

new thing still dies to decay though so how good can it be?

[Tom4ik]

So does Drs, Goyf, pyromancer, delver, sfm, etc. That said it comes with a HUGE body that also bounces Dnt, elves, pyromancer, entreat, mentor all back to the hand.

This is def playable and can easily slot in depending on the build. Not that it HAS to be played but I will be trying some brews with it. Seems fun.

[Ricardio]

Sounds good. I anticipate good results from you, Tom. Also, have you ever played BUG still? it might be a good time to revisit.

[Tom4ik]

I think with this new creature you are right that its a more control shell than midrange. You drop the Tnns for sure. You might also drop goyf as well. Running strix and Snap seem great with this as you dont lose any value when you bounce.

Truths is also probably really good with this. Having access to something that refills your hand mid game is important.

If I do not play a deck with this main deck I wouldnt hesitate to jam 3 in my board and play it in place of goyf against thinks like elves or dnt where goyf isnt much of a threat most times.

[Ricardio]

I think with this new creature you are right that its a more control shell than midrange. You drop the Tnns for sure. You might also drop goyf as well. Running strix and Snap seem great with this as you dont lose any value when you bounce.

Truths is also probably really good with this. Having access to something that refills your hand mid game is important.

If I do not play a deck with this main deck I wouldnt hesitate to jam 3 in my board and play it in place of goyf against thinks like elves or dnt where goyf isnt much of a threat most times.

It seems enticing as it has additional text when it flips but I am apprehensive to cut meaningful cards like goyf and tnn who are solid and tested.

[Tom4ik]

It seems enticing as it has additional text when it flips but I am apprehensive to cut meaningful cards like goyf and tnn who are solid and tested.

For sure, but I dont want to discount the power level of this card. Especially in matchups like dnt where they bring in Rip. Having this in play is like having a deed in play where they have to pressure the board but committing themselves gets punished pretty hard.

[Ricardio]

For sure, but I dont want to discount the power level of this card. Especially in matchups like dnt where they bring in Rip. Having this in play is like having a deed in play where they have to pressure the board but committing themselves gets punished pretty hard.

Albeit its entirely susceptible to swords. I don't want to say its bad but I have no idea how good it can be and I don't want your hopes too high. Innistrad was insane last time, I fear it will be more tamed this time around.

[Tom4ik]

Albeit its entirely susceptible to swords. I don't want to say its bad but I have no idea how good it can be and I don't want your hopes too high. Innistrad was insane last time, I fear it will be more tamed this time around.

Actually that is why I think this card would fit better in a midrange deck than a control shell. To be honest Dnt against Bug usually has its swords overloaded on Drs, possibly goyf or strix so especially with discard. swording a 0/4 shouldnt feel to great from them. The fact that it can also hold off smaller creatures before the flip also actually seems relevant in many cases.

[Manipulato]

Could you guys share your current list? Especially Ricardio & Tom4ik :smile:

[Ricardio]

Actually that is why I think this card would fit better in a midrange deck than a control shell. To be honest Dnt against Bug usually has its swords overloaded on Drs, possibly goyf or strix so especially with discard. swording a 0/4 shouldnt feel to great from them. The fact that it can also hold off smaller creatures before the flip also actually seems relevant in many cases.

Well now im excited. hopefully the price isn't ridiculous.

[Ricardio]

Went 2-2 yesterday with what felt like a suboptimal 60 and some holes in the 15.

Lost to merfolk 0-2 (t1 vial both games)
Game 1: multiple lords into TNN felt bad.
G2: she had t1 vial t2 chalice. I hymn double fow and she has the 3rd to stop the deluge that woulda saved me.
Very lobsided draws overall.

Beat LED Dredge 2-0
DRS and wasteland carried super hard. Huge goyf closed it out fast

Lost to Reanimator 1-2 (played immeasurably slow. if he weren't so new and cordial, I woulda called a judge to speed him up)
I win game 1 fairly easily with DRS and goyf
g2: I have drs and tap it to set up goyf for a clock to kill him in a timely manner. he draws careful study to hit exactly reanimate and griselbrand. I try to race and he draws g source and decay for my second goyf to stop the race. I draw 3 fetches in a row to his 3 spells.
g3: he had everything for what I had. quite insane actually

Beat RG post 2-0
G1: a clinic on ripping your opponents spine out through they anus. I had it all.
G2: goyf into lotv into jtms into concede.

definitely need to make changes in the deck. I may have strayed too far from my initial starting point and made the deck too murky.

[sdematt]

Post your list

[Tom4ik]

I have been finding success in my heavier discard list. I am still on 2 Tnn plus the jitte but have 2-3 hymn and 1 TS main with 2 TS side.

I also moved pierce to the SB as well. I have all 4 fow main.

This is the list from last weeks 4-0. I played this a bit this weekend against stoneblade and it seemed just fine.

4 polluted delta
3 verdant catacombs
2 misty rainforest
2 bayou
2 tropical island
2 underground sea
3 wasteland
1 creeping tar pit
1 forest
1 swamp

4 deathrite shaman
4 tarmogoyf
2 baleful strix
2 true-name nemesis
3 snapcaster mage

4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 abrupt decay
1 maelstrom pulse
1 umezawa's jitte
2 hymn to tourach
1 thoughtseize
2 ponder
2 painful truths

2 liliana of the veil
1 jace, the mind sculptor

Sideboard
2 surgical extraction
2 thoughtseize
2 spell pierce
1 toxic deluge
1 golgari charm
1 massacre
1 krosan grip
1 Jace, the mind sculptor
1 Thrun, the last troll
1 pithing needle
1 baleful strix
1 life from the loam

[Ricardio]

I have been finding success in my heavier discard list. I am still on 2 Tnn plus the jitte but have 2-3 hymn and 1 TS main with 2 TS side.

I also moved pierce to the SB as well. I have all 4 fow main.

This is the list from last weeks 4-0. I played this a bit this weekend against stoneblade and it seemed just fine.

4 polluted delta
3 verdant catacombs
2 misty rainforest
2 bayou
2 tropical island
2 underground sea
3 wasteland
1 creeping tar pit

4 deathrite shaman
4 tarmogoyf
2 baleful strix
2 true-name nemesis
3 snapcaster mage

4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 abrupt decay
1 maelstrom pulse
1 umezawa's jitte
2 hymn to tourach
1 thoughtseize
2 ponder
2 painful truths

2 liliana of the veil
1 jace, the mind sculptor

Sideboard
2 surgical extraction
2 thoughtseize
2 spell pierce
1 toxic deluge
1 golgari charm
1 massacre
1 krosan grip
1 Jace, the mind sculptor
1 Thrun, the last troll
1 pithing needle
1 baleful strix
1 life from the loam


I ran something similar
22 land
4 polluted delta
4 verdant catacombs
2 bayou
1 tropical island
3 underground sea
4 wasteland
1 creeping tar pit
1 swamp
1 forest
1 island

4 deathrite shaman
4 tarmogoyf
2 baleful strix
2 true-name nemesis
1 snapcaster mage
1 V Clique

4 brainstorm
3 force of will
3 abrupt decay
1 Deluge
1 Loam
1 maelstrom pulse
1 Garruk Relentless
2 hymn to tourach
2 thoughtseize
2 ponder

2 liliana of the veil
2 jace, the mind sculptor

Sideboard
2 surgical extraction
2 duress
2 negate
1 null rod
1 golgari charm
1 phyr revoker
1 needle
2 disfigure
1 library
1 (IDK)
1 force

I would definitely make some changes. Basics are in actuality too ambitious for 3. probably better off w 2 or so. 21 lands is probably right.

SB is meh. need to fix the mainboard first

[Tom4ik]

I edited my post. I ran 1 forest 1 swamp. I would like to cut a land for a basic island but idk. 3 basics were definitely annoying in the opening hand. I could see just running another dual and 4th wasteland in those spots as well.

How has clique been for you? I never found her that useful in the bug decks. When you dont run things like CS or more snaps the flash seems less useful and I never thought it was worth the spot. thoughts?

How has the Garruk been for you? Is it just there to spam a 2/2 every turn? If so wouldnt something else be better like BB or smth like that.

[Ricardio]

I edited my post. I ran 1 forest 1 swamp. I would like to cut a land for a basic island but idk. 3 basics were definitely annoying in the opening hand. I could see just running another dual and 4th wasteland in those spots as well.

How has clique been for you? I never found her that useful in the bug decks. When you dont run things like CS or more snaps the flash seems less useful and I never thought it was worth the spot. thoughts?

How has the Garruk been for you? Is it just there to spam a 2/2 every turn? If so wouldnt something else be better like BB or smth like that.

The basics can get obnoxious when you want to cast decay/strix/hymn t2

Clique is an instant speak, evasive threat that can help in sticky situations. Like putting an ugin to the bottom, haha. I play it mainly because it doesn't need the gy like drs or goyf and its blue for FOW count.

Garruk is not meant for the mb. He is certainly great when hes good. I would sugest putting him in the sb. I play him over thrun. One is uncounterable, the other is unterminusable.

I love jtms but 2 mb might be wrong. He is just so damn good, especially with loam.

[sdematt]

I ran:

3 TNN
4 DRS
3 Goyf
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Scavenging Ooze
13

3 Jace TMS
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Liliana of the Veil
6

3 Painful Truths
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Unearth
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Toxic Deluge
21

8 Fetches
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Sea
2 Bayou
2 Trop
1 Forest
1 Swamp
21 lands

2 Krosan Grip
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Flusterstorm
2 Golgari Charm
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
1 Force of Will
1 Life from the Loam

But found that I should cut a land and add more discard in. I miss not having information.

[Ricardio]

I would like to try unearth. Sounds cheeky. Chain it with snap too.

You guys should try loam main. It's amazing.

[sdematt]

I would like to try unearth. Sounds cheeky. Chain it with snap too.

You guys should try loam main. It's amazing.

Unearth has been pretty good. Usually, there's a lot of exchange over killing TNN's, so bringing it back is a pretty great use of resources. Or, sometimes you just want to a Snapcaster back to get a Decay/Brainstorm. Plus, if it's junk, cycle it.

[Tom4ik]

SdeMatt-
-How have you liked the pierces main? I am on 3 snap so I liked having access to a counterspell but the games with Bug ended up dragging enough that I ended up moving them to the side. I have hymn and TS main basically in place of those from your list.
-I do like Tnn in this deck but with 2 deluge would it be better to be on the goyf plan? No access to jitte in the main and the side? Tnn with jitte is one of the ways this deck can break creature mirrors. Though I do see you are heavy on the pw plan.
-I think I will try a garruk next time I play this. I just couldnt see the benefit of a 4 mana 2/2 spammer but sacing strix or snap to tutor up tnn or another snap does seem fine if he ever flips.
-I see you have 3 truths and 1 library. How has that been? I am on just 2 truths right now and have been considering the library. Truths is the real deal but I do still wonder if it is actually better than just having more jaces.

[Ricardio]

I've been asking myself this a lot lately and I think you all should too:

What separates us from other BUG decks? What makes us better than those builds? What are our weaknesses?

[sdematt]

Wasting cards to set up a derdly 2/2 into a draw 3 seems like a waste of my time, and limits what you can sideboard ( cascade). Id rather just grind with other spells. TNN > Shardless Dirtmonster.

[Tom4ik]

I would say that a BUG deck not based on cascade is much more versatile in what you can play. You might not flood the board as fast but you get to play cards that are not restricted to proactiveness.

[H]

I would say that a BUG deck not based on cascade is much more versatile in what you can play. You might not flood the board as fast but you get to play cards that are not restricted to proactiveness.

Yeah, I used to play BUG Landstill mainly because I wanted to play Counterspell.

It also allows you to sideboard things like Surgical Extraction which would be terrible in Shardless.

[Ricardio]

Yeah, I used to play BUG Landstill mainly because I wanted to play Counterspell.

It also allows you to sideboard things like Surgical Extraction which would be terrible in Shardless.

BUG Still? List, please?

[H]

BUG Still? List, please?

I'm on my phone, so you can just find it and the tread here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?9413-Deck-UBGx-Landstill&p=809298&viewfull=1#post809298).

Mind you, it was years ago though. In earlier lists I had a Counterspell in place of the Clique.

[Ricardio]

I'm on my phone, so you can just find it and the tread here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?9413-Deck-UBGx-Landstill&p=809298&viewfull=1#post809298).

Mind you, it was years ago though. In earlier lists I had a Counterspell in place of the Clique.

that pretty sweet. but man is that list old. would you play lumbering falls now?

[H]

that pretty sweet. but man is that list old. would you play lumbering falls now?

I don't think so, I can recall times were even the 3 for Tar Pit felt steep. You can grind them out of cards with Liliana, then them having a removal spell for Tar Pit is either impossible or very unlikely.

You should post in the thread or message Nastaboi (whose list I was basically running). I don't know if he is still playing the deck, but he was much better with it than I ever was or will be.

[sdematt]

SdeMatt-
-How have you liked the pierces main? I am on 3 snap so I liked having access to a counterspell but the games with Bug ended up dragging enough that I ended up moving them to the side. I have hymn and TS main basically in place of those from your list.

I found them just fine, but they're also there to get the blue count up to about 18 for 3 Forces. But, I agree, since games do go long, they're kind of ass sometimes. I'm also considering cutting them for action, and Thoughtseize/Hymn seem like good choices.



-I do like Tnn in this deck but with 2 deluge would it be better to be on the goyf plan? No access to jitte in the main and the side? Tnn with jitte is one of the ways this deck can break creature mirrors. Though I do see you are heavy on the pw plan.

I'm also running Goyf, if you see. I really like the fact that TNN is an evasive threat that your opponent has to pour resources into removing. Goyf is fat, and a quick clock, so I like running both. The Ooze is a concession to the fact that sometimes, Ooze beats Goyf when left unchecked and allows the ability to handle opposing Deathrites, etc. Having Deluge doesn't mean it's that much of a non-bo - you want a large sweeper in this kind of midrangy deck, and Deluge is the card to do it. If I have to kill a TNN to 5-for-1 them, which does happen, I'm open to that. TNN makes them try to go wide, which is where Deluge comes in handy.



-I think I will try a garruk next time I play this. I just couldnt see the benefit of a 4 mana 2/2 spammer but sacing strix or snap to tutor up tnn or another snap does seem fine if he ever flips.

Garruk is very good. He's excellent against Miracles, and Deathtouch wolves are hard for some decks to beat. Flipping isn't super hard, Deathrite Shamans do run amok in this metagame.



-I see you have 3 truths and 1 library. How has that been? I am on just 2 truths right now and have been considering the library. Truths is the real deal but I do still wonder if it is actually better than just having more jaces.

Very good. I almost want another Truths, but the lifeloss is relevant enough. I play it in Rhinotime and love it to pieces. Sylvan just wins control matches, hands down. I'm running 3 Jaces, so I don't think running 4 is the answer. Splitting with Garruk is safer.

----

Overall, I really like the list, but I'd likely change it to this next time I run it:

3 TNN
4 DRS
3 Goyf
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Scavenging Ooze
13

3 Jace TMS
1 Garruk Relentless
4

3 Painful Truths
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Unearth
3 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Ancestral Visions
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Toxic Deluge
23

8 Fetches
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Sea
2 Bayou
2 Trop
1 Forest
1 Swamp
21 lands

2 Krosan Grip
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Flusterstorm
2 Golgari Charm
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
1 Force of Will
1 Life from the Loam

What I noticed in playing the Shardless mirror a bunch is that my opponent was just laying out Visions and letting them come off naturally, and saving Brainstorms when it was relevant to actually dig for action. I'm curious to see if this is, in fact, the right call - just playing another draw 3 that slowly comes down. My problem is that I also need to keep the blue count up. At the moment, I'm at 17 with 3 Forces, which is likely just fine. I might cut a Decay and a land for 2 Strixes to up the removal count as well as the blue count, but we'll see. I might also jam 2 Thoughtseize in the board in place of a Needle and a Null Rod, or nug the second Garruk (which replaced Thrun).

[Ricardio]

4 waste and a loam are insane. I'm even playing a gq in the side now tonattack decks like miracles.

[btm10]

I found them just fine, but they're also there to get the blue count up to about 18 for 3 Forces. But, I agree, since games do go long, they're kind of ass sometimes. I'm also considering cutting them for action, and Thoughtseize/Hymn seem like good choices.


What I noticed in playing the Shardless mirror a bunch is that my opponent was just laying out Visions and letting them come off naturally, and saving Brainstorms when it was relevant to actually dig for action. I'm curious to see if this is, in fact, the right call - just playing another draw 3 that slowly comes down. My problem is that I also need to keep the blue count up. At the moment, I'm at 17 with 3 Forces, which is likely just fine. I might cut a Decay and a land for 2 Strixes to up the removal count as well as the blue count, but we'll see. I might also jam 2 Thoughtseize in the board in place of a Needle and a Null Rod, or nug the second Garruk (which replaced Thrun).

That's usually how you want to handle Visions in Shardless - you're likely to be doing well if the game goes on another 4 tuns, and it's just good to be more mana efficient early on. Strapping Ancestral Recall to Grizzly Bears straight-up is great. Spending U and a card to do it is harder to distinguish from Grey Value Ogre, which isn't great.

I'm surprised that you've opted for 0 Liliana in favor of the third Jace and second Garruk but simultaneously cut countermagic. Even if you aren't comfortable running Counterspell, I've got a real soft spot for Negate in the current meta and there's very little cost to running them in the board.

[Ricardio]

Negate has been very good to me. It does feel good to catch people with it because the whole time they are playing around snare or pierce and you just get them with negate.

[rubblekill]

Hello, I am new in this thread so excuse my ignorance. It seems like a pernicious jace/pw build of bug control isn't played anymore here: why is that? Is it not viable anymore? Enlighten me.

E: Probably this isn't the right thread to ask that question.

[Bobmans]

Hello, I am new in this thread so excuse my ignorance. It seems like a pernicious jace/pw build of bug control isn't played anymore here: why is that? Is it not viable anymore? Enlighten me.

E: Probably this isn't the right thread to ask that question.
Well, i guess your referring to Landstill variant of BUG. I played that beautiful deck for a while, but found that it was to slow. Comparing BUG midrange and NicFit to Pernicious Jace/Landstill i'd say that NicFit has a better manabase to support the mana hungry bombs and BUG Midrange is more efficient and has more tempo.

[rubblekill]

Well, i guess your refurring to Landstill variant of BUG. I played that beautiful deck for a while, but found that it was to slow. Comparing BUG midrange and NicFit to Pernicious Jace i'd say that NicFit has a better manabase to support the mana hungry bombs and BUG Midrange is more efficient and has more tempo.

Thanks for answering. I really want to play a BUG planeswalkers deck that relies on discard and deed/decay; no manlands. Is this the correct thread to ask?

[Ricardio]

Thanks for answering. I really want to play a BUG planeswalkers deck that relies on discard and deed/decay; no manlands. Is this the correct thread to ask?

I believe so. The version Tom and I have been playing are fairly close. His is more in on the jitte/tnn plan whereas mine is more control with mb pw.

I like to think of this thread as BUG but not shardless or delver. So basically anything that doesn't fall into the category of the aforementioned.

[Tom4ik]

I have 2 Tnn and a jitte main as a way to break open the midrange fair decks. Jitte is still a fair mirror breaker and gives this deck another angle of attack against the dnt/elves creature based decks. I do not run a md sweeper right now so that is a cost.

I think deed without vet is a losing cause right now aside from a singleton either md or sb blowout potential. Card is very slow and means you are incentivized to not play DRS which is the best card BUG should play imo. Toxic deluge does a good impersination especially as decay can handle the non creatures parts pretty well.

I have also been on 3 snaps which is another difference I believe from Ricardio who is on clique.

I want to test with Titi at some point too. 3-4 snaps and strix. Probe therapy. Some lily and jace to help board control. Seems an interesting place to start.

[Ricardio]

So you are saying basically drop the green for the most part and make it UB? that could be good.

[Tom4ik]

So you are saying basically drop the green for the most part and make it UB? that could be good.

Pretty much. Keep green for decay. possibly drs (I know it would be a nonbo) but that card is still absurd and having access to 3 mana turn 2 allows for Titi plus spell.

I think any deck that tries to use Ice bro is going to want to be UBx. Red gives bolt but pyro-man isnt the best. White gives stp but decay is better than those in this deck imo.

I dont think this deck is any better than some of our current lists but I am going to brew regardless. If the deck fails meh, back to normal.

My other thought is running some number in the board. I board goyf out in certain matchups and this card would be nice against dnt and elves for sure. I dont like that our big guy gets hit by rip in that match-up. Especially with me on 3 snap RIP is super good. Being able to drop this and block thalia and revoker early and having them never know when you just bounce their board and bash with a 7/8 that doesnt rely on the gy is kind of nice. It would take the place of my massacre that I have run as a 1 of and probably the Thrun that I have there as well. Idk I'd have to really take a look again.

[Ricardio]

Pretty much. Keep green for decay. possibly drs (I know it would be a nonbo) but that card is still absurd and having access to 3 mana turn 2 allows for Titi plus spell.

I think any deck that tries to use Ice bro is going to want to be UBx. Red gives bolt but pyro-man isnt the best. White gives stp but decay is better than those in this deck imo.

I dont think this deck is any better than some of our current lists but I am going to brew regardless. If the deck fails meh, back to normal.

My other thought is running some number in the board. I board goyf out in certain matchups and this card would be nice against dnt and elves for sure. I dont like that our big guy gets hit by rip in that match-up. Especially with me on 3 snap RIP is super good. Being able to drop this and block thalia and revoker early and having them never know when you just bounce their board and bash with a 7/8 that doesnt rely on the gy is kind of nice. It would take the place of my massacre that I have run as a 1 of and probably the Thrun that I have there as well. Idk I'd have to really take a look again.

Hows the testing going? I did 2 prereleases and got promo TITIs both times. might be a sign haha

[Tom4ik]

Hows the testing going? I did 2 prereleases and got promo TITIs both times. might be a sign haha

Unfortunately Modern unbannings have renewed my interest so I havent done any Ice bro testing. I did play a 4 round weekly last night for legacy. 4th round opponent wanted to jet so I drew.

rd 1 Infect
Game 1 - Never saw a removal spell aside from Lily which just ate a glistener elf. Double Agent got me. 2 Stp on goyfs slowed my clock.
Game 2 - Turn 2 Lily uptick eventually just sacced to ulted to get rid of a nexus. Deluge got some value and eventually the turn 1 Drs just did enough.
Game 3- Ts -> Hymn ->Lily at his hand real quick. ended at 9 poison but 2 goyfs closed the game quick. Deluge 3 for 1 meant he ended the game with no resources really. Infect can be tricky but realistically this deck should be fine. waste for nexus and lots of interaction. Agent can be a issue without finding decay.

Rd 2 Storm
Game 1 he mulls to 6 and has a slow hand so Drs and goyf whittle away. He ends up playing a led to get ahead of discard but decay just makes goyf close faster.
Game 2 DRS into back to back Hymms. Therapy takes 2 goyfs but I find 2 forces plus 2 blue cards so he never resolves anything big.

Rd 3 Black n Taxes (Dnt plus Bob and Tidehollow sculler)
Game 1 - Drs into double goyf, Tnn. I have a sylvan library but literally never see a spell so the goyfs never get above 1/2. I cant get a creature into the yard either. He eventually lands jitte on a flyer and ends the game. Pretty ridic library draws. all DRS and land each time...
Game 2 - I go Ctp into Hymn. Hit waste which was big. He scullers to see Kgrip, ptruths and jitte. He takes truths. I topdeck Tnn and play that. He plays revoker on jitte. I pass with grip and he plays crusader. Grip revoker and play equip jitte and he scoops to a Tnn with jitte.
Game 3- Ballsy keeps on both sides. I keep a 1 fetch, waste with double Drs. He goes waste vial. I fetch forest drs. he ticks vial and pass. So with the missed land drop I of course just waste him and decay vial. He puts mom in but over the next 2 turns I get a Tnn, Jitte and Lily. He cant catch up.

So a 3-0 against some fairly stock lists. I am actually a fan of the black and taxes deck. Mom into bob is sweet.

[Ricardio]

Unfortunately Modern unbannings have renewed my interest so I havent done any Ice bro testing. I did play a 4 round weekly last night for legacy. 4th round opponent wanted to jet so I drew.

rd 1 Infect
Game 1 - Never saw a removal spell aside from Lily which just ate a glistener elf. Double Agent got me. 2 Stp on goyfs slowed my clock.
Game 2 - Turn 2 Lily uptick eventually just sacced to ulted to get rid of a nexus. Deluge got some value and eventually the turn 1 Drs just did enough.
Game 3- Ts -> Hymn ->Lily at his hand real quick. ended at 9 poison but 2 goyfs closed the game quick. Deluge 3 for 1 meant he ended the game with no resources really. Infect can be tricky but realistically this deck should be fine. waste for nexus and lots of interaction. Agent can be a issue without finding decay.

Rd 2 Storm
Game 1 he mulls to 6 and has a slow hand so Drs and goyf whittle away. He ends up playing a led to get ahead of discard but decay just makes goyf close faster.
Game 2 DRS into back to back Hymms. Therapy takes 2 goyfs but I find 2 forces plus 2 blue cards so he never resolves anything big.

Rd 3 Black n Taxes (Dnt plus Bob and Tidehollow sculler)
Game 1 - Drs into double goyf, Tnn. I have a sylvan library but literally never see a spell so the goyfs never get above 1/2. I cant get a creature into the yard either. He eventually lands jitte on a flyer and ends the game. Pretty ridic library draws. all DRS and land each time...
Game 2 - I go Ctp into Hymn. Hit waste which was big. He scullers to see Kgrip, ptruths and jitte. He takes truths. I topdeck Tnn and play that. He plays revoker on jitte. I pass with grip and he plays crusader. Grip revoker and play equip jitte and he scoops to a Tnn with jitte.
Game 3- Ballsy keeps on both sides. I keep a 1 fetch, waste with double Drs. He goes waste vial. I fetch forest drs. he ticks vial and pass. So with the missed land drop I of course just waste him and decay vial. He puts mom in but over the next 2 turns I get a Tnn, Jitte and Lily. He cant catch up.

So a 3-0 against some fairly stock lists. I am actually a fan of the black and taxes deck. Mom into bob is sweet.

great results. Ya, oddly enough standard was stale and eldrazi modern so legacy became a main focus but with standard rotation Friday as well as modern shaken of the elcancer and new toys released from they cages, attention has once again been shifted.

What are you playing in modern? (since we are the only people who comment here)

[sdematt]

I may actually play Modern since I can play Thopters. BUG Thopters, perhaps? ;)

[Ricardio]

I may actually play Modern since I can play Thopters. BUG Thopters, perhaps? ;)

What would the green be for? Decay is at its weakest in modern albeit I assume it will gain a bit of strength in the coming weeks. DRS isn't legal and loam doesn't seem especially strong. With thopter/sword as your win con, gy hate is going to be brought in so to diversify you will want to stray from goyf and the like.

[Tom4ik]

ohhh, BUg thopters. I like it! I was looking to play a visions control deck but bug thopters seems real. Decay is big game because hitting plating and other foundries is nice. If I was on the thopter plan I would probably not play goyf. I am not sure a bug visions deck is actually any good but that would be ideal! haha

[tescrin]

What would the green be for? Decay is at its weakest in modern albeit I assume it will gain a bit of strength in the coming weeks. DRS isn't legal and loam doesn't seem especially strong. With thopter/sword as your win con, gy hate is going to be brought in so to diversify you will want to stray from goyf and the like.

Hard to say. Grixis certainly seems better in Modern I'd think as you get your Bolts, so you can do the old Bolt, Snap-Bolt over the game to get to the late game. Then you can do Dismembers as a means to deal with Eldrazi, Goyfs, etc.. Maybe Bitterblossoms to help trigger the Sword if it's offline, and a few artifacts like Ichor Wellspring.

The best shell though is probably affinity and just making it have late game. It has the 1/1s already, it has the artifacts, and Foundry allows you to sac them in response to removal. Making your guys more relevant mid-game with Sword may be alright, and Sword with Ravager isn't the worst (Swing, play a 1/1, in response sac the sword for a +1/+1 counter, sword attaches to the other guy for defense.)

EDIT: That above play is actually pretty insane with even two swords. Sac two, get +2/+2, 1/1 comes in and becomes a 3/5 on D while you can sac Ravager to give him all those counters.

[Jaytron]

I'm surprised that there has been little discussion on this deck. It seems that some variation of BUG Control is going 5-0 in leagues each day.

So you lose Visions/Shardless

But gain Ponder and some number of Dazes? Also get to run TNN and a Jitte in the 75?

[ironclad8690]

It plays a little more smoothly in that you have more control over what you do (cascade is random much of the time etc). You can also very easily "get" people who don't play around daze once they see Strix. These lists exist in the space that is left between Hymn Delver and Shardless on the Aggro -> Control scale (which in my opinion starts with Stifle Delver and ends with Lejay Shardless).

[Jaytron]

It plays a little more smoothly in that you have more control over what you do (cascade is random much of the time etc). You can also very easily "get" people who don't play around daze once they see Strix. These lists exist in the space that is left between Hymn Delver and Shardless on the Aggro -> Control scale (which in my opinion starts with Stifle Delver and ends with Lejay Shardless).

What do you think about the deck in terms of power?

Between Hymn Delver and Shardless

I'm sitting on Hymn Delver now, with cards to build this, Shardless, or to just go back to Grixis Delver.

[ironclad8690]

What do you think about the deck in terms of power?

Between Hymn Delver and Shardless

I'm sitting on Hymn Delver now, with cards to build this, Shardless, or to just go back to Grixis Delver.

To me it feels less powerful than Shardless BUG objectively, but there is something to be said about your opponents not really being able to recognize what you are on.

They don't see TNN game 1? They probably wont board in outs, and TNN is one of the most punishing cards to opponents who aren't prepared.

They might see only X/1s, but then Tarmogoyf kills them with Golgari Charm in their hand.

If I were to make 1 direct comparison I would say this: if you like playing to the stack more but want something more controlling than Delver, play BUG Control. If you want to play to the board rather than the stack, play Shardless.

[Tom4ik]

I honestly dont think most ppl play daze in these decks. you are a worse daze deck than stifle bug delver but you pick up things like snapcaster and tnn that shardless doesnt run. here is the list I played wed for reference.

3 wasteland
2 creeping tar pit
2 underground sea
2 bayou
2 tropical island
3 verdant catacombs
3 polluted delta
2 misty rainforest
1 forest
1 swamp

4 deathrite shaman
4 tarmogoyf
3 snapcaster mage
2 baleful strix
2 true-name nemesis

2 liliana of the veil
1 jace, the mind sculptor
1 sylvan library
2 painful truths
2 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
2 hymn to tourach
1 umezawa's jitte
1 maelstrom pulse
4 abrupt decay


sideboard
3 thoughtseize
2 spell pierce
2 surgical extraction
1 thrun, the last troll
1 baleful strix
1 jace, the mind sculptor
1 toxic deluge
1 golgari charm
1 krosan grip
1 disfigure
1 life from the loam


I think this deck is very versatile. More so than either delver or shardless. This deck can go longer than delver by having actual CA spells and things like jitte/tnn to break open stalls. It is also better against combo by having ts and surgical plus snap. Might be less swingy than shardless because you cant blow the games open but hard to find a deck this doesnt have a good shot at. eh.

[Tom4ik]

-Double Post-
Played in a $20 entry tourny today. Used the above list but moved library side and put 1 TS main. Changed disfigure to deed.

Rd 1 - Esper
Gm 1 decay on sfm lets goyf beats in. He floods and gets jitte plus skull. I find my jitte and goyf being bigger lets me stall until I get a tnn and close it out.
Gm 2 Mull to 6 and then Rip shuts off my drs and goyf. Lily buys time and then we get dueling jaces. Meddling mage and sfm pressure couldnt beat the pair of walkers and jace ult ended it after I put some creatures in play to block.

Rd 2 - Burning Reanimator
Gm 1 Drs on the play, turn 2 ts & hymn and he cant recover. Goyf ended the game pretty quick after.
Gm 2 hand was 3 fetches, snap, force,surgical hymn. He unmasks me a few times but surgical plus a pierce keep him from putting anything together.

Rd 3 - Bug delver
Gm 1 He gets delver and goyf but I remove them. He gets a Tnn (didnt realize they play those main) we trade forces but he is ahead in the race. His hand was all dudes with a force. Just ran out of removal too fast.
Gm 2 He keeps a 1 lander. Turn 1 drs into turn 2 waste goyf. He has a delver that eats a decay and he eventually gets a few land but is way behind on the board that he dies to a goyf left standing.
Gm 3 I keep a land heavy opener. He gets a turn 1 drs which I decay after 1 activation. Lily eats a goyf, I get strix + tnn but he eot decays strix and plays a lily of his own. We each tick up a few times but he decays mine. Then I draw a life from the loam with 2 CTP in the yard. 1 hit on lily puts it out of ult range and wear out his waste in play and just tar pit him.

We have a cut after 4 rds to top 8 so at 3-0-1 I draw and skip to top 8.

Qtr- Dnt
Gm 1 I lead on Drs into goyf. He starts of slow with vial into mom. Decay is able take out mom and that lets me get an active jitte. I find a tnn and he loses 2 turns later.
Gm 2 I keep fetch/waste 2 drs hand. Play out both of the drs but waste has no targets and he plays rip. I get wasted/ported out. Cant find any more land and with me stuck on 2 land I do not have anything to do about the skull.
Gm 3 Mull to 6 but land an early library. Got to 10 before he has touched me with some fetches and truths. I have multiple decays to answer early revokers. I save a charm to hit a thalia. I land a deed but he CJ it and it leaves me naked. He gets crusader which puts me to 1. I have 1 turn to draw smth, I hit Tnn 3 down play it. He finds sfm which gets a Sofi. I again need an answer. Find grip. I let him equip and send which blows him out. He loses the rest his board some trades on the attack and now I am leftwith the better board. I close the game out with a tarpit plus Tnn. Very close.

Semi- Uwr Blade
Gm 1 he keeps hand with very little land. I get to Drs into goyf+waste. Keep him off white for 2 turns while I bash. He removes goyf and I untap and land jace with force backup for his. I dig into 2 more goyfs and he cant keep up on 2 land.
Gm 2 Open a good hand but he has a tnn early with force back up. I have useless removal and cannot find lily fast enough. ended the game with like 5-6 cards in hand but just hand disruption,forces and decays. Sometimes the Tnn just goes the distance.
Gm 3 is one of the oddest games I have played. I mull to a 6 of land, land, Drs, pulse, grip,decay. That hand did not seem like a winner but I keep. Drs gets removed and I draw some more land. He just lays land and passes a few turns. I draw and play a jace he forces. I draw and play jace he pitches another to force again. He plays his own jace. I pulse and he forces a 3rd time...uhhh ok? So I have nothing in play and a hand of decay + Grip. I try to tar pit the jace but that gets Stp. He lands Elspeth (hmm, so this game is over). I ptruth into some discard and force to keep him from advancing more. I find another truth. He makes some tokens and bs. He cliques me which I force. hymn hislast card (Reb) and snap pulse his elspeth I then get a Tnn into play then I play Thrun. His next turn he swings into Thrun and then verdicts. I regen thrun. He moons which I use charm on leaving me empty. Find tar pit. Finally take out on turn 15 a turn 5 jace. He is at 11 so 2 turn clock. Finds nothing. I am unsure how I won that game. I shouldnt have and I wish I could go back and watch from his side as he had all the tools but I somehow stole that. Ptruths OP I guess.

I split the finals to get back home after picking up some modern stuff.

[Ricardio]

Stock list
3-0-1

UB Tezz/Foundry (Leyline/Helm postboard)
g1: I lose to thopter sword. Academy ruins to prevent my decay from doing much but slowing him down a turn.
g2: t3 jtms and power through with goyfs and tnn
g3: t3 jtms, waste him out while fatesealing. 6/7 goyfs win

DnT (fk this deck)
g1: he assembles wisp with sword FI and that's that.
g2: I get a timely g charm to kill thalia and then grind him out
g3: I get to hymn double cataclysm (SCHA-WING!) and he has stoneforge/batterskull attacking me. I get tnn and clique down followed by ctp to 3 him out.

RG 12 post
g1: I t1 seize, t2 hymn and t3 lotv. he lives through 2 lily ults and then gets done away by a huge goyf
g2: I seize. he wails my hymn. double wasteland. I hymn and it resolves. he discards emrakul and shuffles back in 2 posts. draws running cloudposts into blightsteel. next stop, frown town.
g3: hymn, fow, waste. t3 tnn that went all the way.

DnT ID

TOP 4 SPLIT.

Didn't see jitte all day so I never got to live the dream. Deck felt immensely strong and I felt like even though I made quite a few mistakes, the deck made up for it.

[Ricardio]

Played in sunday legacy.

2-1 Belcher
g1: t1 empty for 18 goblins. rekt
g2: I double fow him. Negate his second attempt. close out with massive goyfs
g3: he mulls to 5. I keep 7: duress, hymn, strix, fow, 3 lands. I hit goyf and he concedes to lily.

0-2 BUG Delver
g1: t1 drs, t2 hymn and delver and I feel like its over. SPOILER: it was.
g2: I stabilize and then draw 5 lands in a row. #value

0-2 DNT
g1: t1 mom, t2 SFM for Sofi, t3 mirran crusader (cant beat that card)
g2: t1 vial, t2 thalia, t3 Mirran crusader (still cant beat this card)

2-0 UB Tezzafacts
G1: I waste him a few times and hymn once. Pulse tezz. Goyfs bigger than his lodestones.
g2: I mull to 4 but he lets me stay at 6 because the match doesn't matter. I t2 hymn, t3 hymn, apologize after hitting mostly lands and drs carrying jitte wins through bridge. (Thanks Tom)

Variance got the better of me. I understand TNN blocks crusader but SOFI is a major problem and if I don't have both, I lose to MC.

I am going to work on BUG standstill this week, hopefully. I imagine now is a great time so I will see how wrong I am.

[Ricardio]

I built Bugstill and ran it at my local sunday legacy. had around 20 people I think so 5 rounds.

R1 DNT Billy
G1: I get to t1 drs, t2 ponder, standstill. He plays out a bunch of threats and then a revoker naming deed. I lose.
G2: He had to defensively cataclysm but kept a port and I wasted it. then he drew a vial and I decayed it. I drew lands and rebuilt with drs while he did nothing.
G3: 2 standstills and a deed later, im sitting with jtms and a manland going at it. he cant recover.
2-1

R2 Miracles Brendan
G1: t2 I caught his top when he fetches and opts to shuffle it away. t3 lily. One to terminus my lumbering falls(should be CTP) Lily ult him for fetch, cb and top. he keep 2 island and a plains. I play second lily on the same turn and he concedes.
G2:He resolves a blood moon and I just cant even. (now we know its a hole in the deck)
G3: He breaks 2 standstills, reluctantly. I land jtms and garruk relentless. He judgements jtms. I land lotv, he snaps back CJ. I play second lily, he concedes. "Too many planeswalkers." -Brendan
2-1

R3 Esperblade
G1: I t1 seize his brainstorm instead of his seize. he t2 sfm, I force. this game was vague.
G2: I t2 standstill and we play draw go for about 6-7 turns. he breaks with seize and I have 10 nonland cards. he takes brainstorm. I seize and go to planeswalker town after this weird dance with his Gideon, ally of Z. he dies in planeswalker town.
2-0

R4 Know n Tell (Pair down)
G1: He t2 show n tell, I force. He t3 show n tell, I die to emrakul off omniscience.
G2: t3 negate his show and tell, he has double force and im dead to release the ants.
0-2 (this is a bad matchup, we fixed the sideboard later)

R5 Esperdeathblade Andres
We ID to secure our credit.

The list:

4 DRS
1 V Clique

2 JTMS
2 Lotv
1 Garruk Relentless

4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 FoW
4 Standstill
4 Deed
3 Decay
1 Life from the loam
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Thoughtseize

1 island
1 swamp
4 verdant
4 delta
3 sea
2 bayou
1 trop
3 waste
2 factory
1 CTP
1 L Falls

SB
2 duress
2 surgical
2 nihil spellbomb
2 disfugre
2 negate
1 thrun
2 gurmag angler
1 golgari charm
1 Library

The deck felt super strong and I will be making changes to it going forward. I am very excited on how it felt in the meta as I anticipate playing all these decks at gp Columbus.

[ScottW]

You should post in the BUG Landstill thread. It needs revitalization. I'd be interested to hear about the changes you're making.

[Ricardio]

You should post in the BUG Landstill thread. It needs revitalization. I'd be interested to hear about the changes you're making.

Theres a thread?!

[H]

So, I've been kind of bummed out on playing Delver. It just has been very lackluster for me of late, the Tempo-esque nature just not really working in my local meta. Daze has been a cruel, cruel mistress and so I needed to do something different. I didn't want to play Shardless because I don't like what it does to my sideboard (and I wanted to try out Invasive Surgery).

I decided I still wanted to do something BUG, so I looked around until I found a list that basically had what I wanted to play and none of what I didn't.

Using sdematt's list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23429-Deck-Team-America-(Midrange-Control-Thread)&p=938821&viewfull=1#post938821), I changed a few cards (like +1 Liliana, -1 Jace and added a couple Baleful Strix in case I saw Eldrazi) and just 3 Painful Truths and 1 Library as my card draw. Ran it Friday night and it felt very good. Top decks were pretty strong, exactly has I wanted them to be. Went 3-0-1, beating Grixis Delver, Miracles, and TES. Took a draw in the last round versus a BW tokens deck because I was tired and already lock for top 4. Only once did I "have" to cast a Truths for only 2 cards, but I had a second in my hand and I wanted to dig for that next land.

Any one else been trying out Truths lately? It seems pretty decent, if you are in a match up that allows the life-loss. Invasive Surgery never really got used, except once to pitch to a Force that I had to cast to not get Venser-Karakas locked.

[Tom4ik]

I have been playing a 2ptruths/1sylvan library deck right now. I also have 3 snapcasters so that helps recast in the longer games where more CA is needed. I am actually thinking a 3rd truth is better than library. I just have not been as impressed with that card in the main deck. DRS plus I run 2 Tnn and jitte main so I do have some life gain.

[H]

I have been playing a 2ptruths/1sylvan library deck right now. I also have 3 snapcasters so that helps recast in the longer games where more CA is needed. I am actually thinking a 3rd truth is better than library. I just have not been as impressed with that card in the main deck. DRS plus I run 2 Tnn and jitte main so I do have some life gain.

Yeah, 3 might have been too many with Library. Library is slow, but it does afford some advantage when you life-total is a liability. I also like that oppoents are apt to destroy it and that just makes 'Goyf bigger. More testing needed really.

I had thoughts of getting a Jitte in the main, but I actually meant to play 3 Force and fit it, but forgot. Perhaps next time I will try it. Obviously TNN and Jitte are real good, but even having Strix with it can be good, I would think, letting me fly over Elves and other nonsense.

Oh and Deathtouch wolves are hilariously good. One game I ended up with 8 of them. Nice Gurmag Angler bro, :laugh:

[Ricardio]

I played in a challenge at gp charlotte with bug control. list was thrown together with 2 deeds main due to poor decisions and time constraint.

I went 2-2: beating mono red sneak attack and elves, losing to Grixis countertop and this strange abzan midrange tokens with deeds mainboard. The deck felt strong just had some poor variance and a few poor decisions.

I wasn't running pruths and I had a library side. 3 jtms, 3 lily, 1 gar-rel mb. Definitely changes I want to make. I love deed but in conjunction with decay, I just lose to angler and tombstalker. I would like to try like a mcut or something to deal with them. I have an IQ sunday so I will try to draft up a list and bounce ideas off you gentlemen/ladies.

I played a few matches of food chain over the weekend and came to the conclusion that baleful strix is very strong atm and we need some number of them in our 75.
I am not a big fan of tnn or agent in this deck because it causes us to make some decisions for the maindeck that I don't necessarily want to advocate.

[H]

I played a few matches of food chain over the weekend and came to the conclusion that baleful strix is very strong atm and we need some number of them in our 75.
I am not a big fan of tnn or agent in this deck because it causes us to make some decisions for the maindeck that I don't necessarily want to advocate.

Yeah, I am really like Strix, even if he never did do anything in the games I played. Had I faced Eldrazi though, I could see it being very good.

I liked having 1 TNN, he won me a game versus Miracles (opponent drew 3 Swords and a Snapcaster, TNN was all that was left). Definitely a non-bo with Toxic Deluge, but if you have TNN and Strix out, it's doubtful you'll need to Deluge.

[Ricardio]

Yeah, I am really like Strix, even if he never did do anything in the games I played. Had I faced Eldrazi though, I could see it being very good.

I liked having 1 TNN, he won me a game versus Miracles (opponent drew 3 Swords and a Snapcaster, TNN was all that was left). Definitely a non-bo with Toxic Deluge, but if you have TNN and Strix out, it's doubtful you'll need to Deluge.

I can agree with that to a degree. TNN seems best in the bolt/sfm decks where it gets additional reach from the cards around it where as we don't turn the corner as hard and our reach isn't infinite.

[H]

I can agree with that to a degree. TNN seems best in the bolt/sfm decks where it gets additional reach from the cards around it.

I can't argue that, you are right, but he still serves a role here, I think, even if you don't run Jitte (I didn't). There is still a good amount of virtual card advantage to be had by playing a threat that they can't block or target. If there was a better three power, unblockable, hexproof creature, I'd play it, no doubt, but that's what we have...

[Tom4ik]

The other thing to remember is that we do have reach with CTP and DRS. With Tnn and those other cards we do have a fair amount of unblockable damage. I run jitte so that also help suiting up. If your deck runs strix those also help with the incremental damage plan. I have been running a 1 of Thrun in the board as well as having just another big dumb beater has been helpful.

[Ricardio]

My issue is that I don't want to fight them with creatures to give their removal targets. I can understand TNN and strix bc one is near unkillable and the second is basically removal/virtual CA. I love goyf but not in this deck. I want to make them deal with my PWs and attack from a different angle. I also hate how much goyf and drs lean on the gy, especially when my opp slams rip. I am currently at 7 pw and 1 CTP. im fairly certain 4 strix is correct atm seeing as it brickwalls eldrazi and other annoyances. I am going to look into playing more stack action like counterspells so I lean less on decay and lily.

[H]

My issue is that I don't want to fight them with creatures to give their removal targets. I can understand TNN and strix bc one is near unkillable and the second is basically removal/virtual CA. I love goyf but not in this deck. I want to make them deal with my PWs and attack from a different angle. I also hate how much goyf and drs lean on the gy, especially when my opp slams rip. I am currently at 7 pw and 1 CTP. im fairly certain 4 strix is correct atm seeing as it brickwalls eldrazi and other annoyances. I am going to look into playing more stack action like counterspells so I lean less on decay and lily.

Indeed, your approach then is more control than mid-range. There are really two schools of thought here though, even if we put aside the midrange-control duality, in regards to 'Goyf and things like RiP, or 'Goyf and spot removal.

One idea is to run 'Goyf, even when your opponent has RiP, because he is so good, that if they are leaning on it, you can make them have it. If they don't, they are screwed. If they tag you with it, as long as you can get rid of it, you can rebuild the yard pretty reasonably.

Second would be to not run 'Goyf at all. This avoids the issue entirely, gives you an advantage in no having to "play that game" and so no being blown out by a RiP (or similar), however, you are not forcing your opponent into sideboarding and applying no pressure to their mulligan decisions.

Either is valid, they are just very different approaches. Running 'Goyf is a quicker win-con, while being more vulnerable (but applies pressure to your opponent's mulligan decisions). Not running 'Goyf gives you a more "stable" less "answerable" win-con, but at the cost of being slower and less mana-efficient.

On the other side, say, versus spot removal, or even mass removal, the same sort of applies, but in a different way. If you ran 'Goyf, you force them to have removal and to keep it in at all times, or lose. The bonus here as well is that the spot removal only covers a portion of your win-cons. So if they keep in 4 Swords and 3 Terminus, because 'Goyf, well, none of that answers Jace or Liliana.

By not running 'Goyf and just planeswalkers, you don't have the risk of running a creature "heavy" draw in to possibly removal "heavy" draw from you opponent, however, again, your win-conditions are slower and less mana-efficient and you are allowing them to "get away with" not running removal.

Of course this is all super high-level theory, in the sense that it's an abstraction based on possible outcomes. In real life there are more concerns, like "how prevalent is RiP in your meta?" In other words, this is a shit-load of words to say, your approach is valid, but other approaches can be valid too. In reality, it comes down to play-style and meta-expectations.

Personally, I like stretching my opponent in every direction. I want them to have to have all the answers, all the time, so I like diverse threats. I accept the risk and susceptibility that presents, because on the balance it tends to favor me. Of course, there are those days where I go to a tournament and face a deck with multiple RiP every round, but dem' da' breaks.

[Tom4ik]

I run 4 goyf, 4 drs, 3 snap caster. I lean very hard on the GY game 1. Post board against SFM decks that are likely to bring in RIP I board out some number of goyfs. I usually bring in Jace, Thrun and more removal and play a more control game. I can see why you dont want goyf as when he is bad it really feels like a waste of a card slot but the deck is very slow without him. If you fear RiP just board them out. If they board in a card to shut off just Drs and Snap I am ok with that.

[Ricardio]

@h: Very well put. I agree and think there is purpose behind your statement. I like goyf and agree that alongside drs they are strong enough to warrant hate. Maybe I should do as you both said and pull in every direction. Also deed seems strong atm and I want to try it some more.

@Tom: I tend to run 1 snap or none, just seems very mana intensive. I would like to run some number of strix ideally alongside a sword/jitte. not altogether sure. I will work on it at modern tonight in preparation for the IQ sunday.

You two are definitely entertaining to read. Glad others want this deck to succeed.

[sdematt]

@h: Very well put. I agree and think there is purpose behind your statement. I like goyf and agree that alongside drs they are strong enough to warrant hate. Maybe I should do as you both said and pull in every direction. Also deed seems strong atm and I want to try it some more.

@Tom: I tend to run 1 snap or none, just seems very mana intensive. I would like to run some number of strix ideally alongside a sword/jitte. not altogether sure. I will work on it at modern tonight in preparation for the IQ sunday.

You two are definitely entertaining to read. Glad others want this deck to succeed.

What was your exact list, H?

I really could see cutting Goyf to put in Strix and play the control game and up your blue sources, but TNN is very good to blank removal and just play infinite chumps for your walkers.

I dont know if I want Deed in the main, but its an excellent sideboard tool. Deluge in the main has been excellent. Opponents have to overextend to go around TNN or your Goyfs, so you punish them with Deluge and/or Deed out of the side. Even if you friendly fire a TNN, the X-for-2 value can still be very high.

Truths is the hard nut and I love Sylvan. I dont think Visions is necessary in addition, but I wanted hard draw, not Ponder, and blue sources.

[H]

@h: Very well put. I agree and think there is purpose behind your statement. I like goyf and agree that alongside drs they are strong enough to warrant hate. Maybe I should do as you both said and pull in every direction. Also deed seems strong atm and I want to try it some more.

@Tom: I tend to run 1 snap or none, just seems very mana intensive. I would like to run some number of strix ideally alongside a sword/jitte. not altogether sure. I will work on it at modern tonight in preparation for the IQ sunday.

You two are definitely entertaining to read. Glad others want this deck to succeed.

I'm glad it made sense, because as I kept typing, I wasn't sure how lucid I was being.

There is also something to be said about how being able to run 4 Braistorms, as we can in Legacy, allows us the flexibility to "mode-swtich" more aptly than in any other format. If you are just a control deck, you are just a control deck even when that isn't so great in the match-up. However, if you are a half-midrange, half-control deck, while you don't maximize your percentage versus decks that are bad versus Control, you also don't throw away games versus decks that are good versus Control.

I feel this is one of the reasons why Team America, with Delver (and Hymn and Liliana) is so versatile. It can play a tempo game, a midrange game, or a sort of control game. Sure, none of those modes are as good as a dedicated Tempo, or Midrange, or Control deck, but the availability to be whichever is needed means you have some advantage over those decks that are one-dimentional. When the tempo plan fails in RUG Delver, they usually are just dead. When it fails in BUG, you can sometimes still grind them down with Liliana, or still get in shots with Deathrites.

Right now though, I have found the "tempo" mode of BUG Delver to be particularly bad, so I want to push harder on the Midrange and Control aspects.


What was your exact list, H?

I really could see cutting Goyf to put in Strix and play the control game and up your blue sources, but TNN is very good to blank removal and just play infinite chumps for your walkers.

I dont know if I want Deed in the main, but its an excellent sideboard tool. Deluge in the main has been excellent. Opponents have to overextend to go around TNN or your Goyfs, so you punish them with Deluge and/or Deed out of the side. Even if you friendly fire a TNN, the X-for-2 value can still be very high.

Truths is the hard nut and I love Sylvan. I dont think Visions is necessary in addition, but I wanted hard draw, not Ponder, and blue sources.

Well, I started with the list you had, that I linked to, a made some changes that lead me to this:

1 TNN
4 DRS
4 Goyf
2 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Scavenging Ooze
14

2 Jace TMS
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Liliana OTV
4

3 Painful Truths
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Unearth
4 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
21

8 Fetches
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Sea
2 Bayou
2 Trop
1 Forest
1 Swamp
21 lands

I retrospect, I think I'd want the 2nd True-Name. Also, the second Deluge would have been better than the 4th Force (Blue count is low, low). Deluge actually won me a game versus Miracles (Losset-creature heavy style). I played 4 Force by accident really, I was in a bit of a hurry putting the deck together and when I thought I had the list I wanted, I counted 60 and just went with it. I decided to try out the Unearth tech, but I literally never drew it.

This list isn't optimal, but I fit my play style really. I would have liked to see how it did versus Eldrazi, but didn't get the chance. I think Deed is a very good card, but it makes sideboarding sometimes awkward. For example, it is great versus Miracles, but the trouble of keeping your own Pithing Needles and Null Rod on the board is too high a cost to me. This is part of why, even though I love Deed and Landstill, I haven't gone back to BUG Landstill.

I think Deed is best if you are going to switch into more Planeswalker control, so versus decks that you anticipate RiP. In that vein, Miracles who's primary win condition is Entreat is also a great place for Deed, as are SFM decks, and if you can manage to navigate the mana-denial and land it versus a Vial deck. It's also a boat-load of fun if you even catch someone playing Affinity (it's happened). I think Deed is a little slow versus something like Elves, but as long as you don't rely on it, it's generally OK.

[Ricardio]

I put a list together and 4-0'd miracles preboard.

4 drs
2 TNN
3 strix
1 snap(10)

3 jtms
3 lotv
1 garruk-relentless(17)

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 decay
4 fow
1 loam
1 deluge
1 counterspell
1 murd cut
1 painful truth
2 thoughtseize (39)

3 waste
1 CTP
3 sea
2 trop
2 bayou
1 forest
1 swamp
4 verdant
4 polluted (21)

I wanted to emphasize planeswalkers and have 5 spells to interact on the stack.

[H]

I wanted to emphasize planeswalkers and have 5 spells to interact on the stack.

Indeed, here is where Deed would really shine out of the board too, I think.

I would just be worried about this list versus something like RUG. Or even worse, UR Delver. It might be ok, but Loam and the Walkers are slow and I find I am often leaning on 'Goyf as a blocker.

Also Counterspell, http://i.imgur.com/hAJGU9e.gif.

[Ricardio]

Indeed, here is where Deed would really shine out of the board too, I think.

I would just be worried about this list versus something like RUG. Or even worse, UR Delver. It might be ok, but Loam and the Walkers are slow and I find I am often leaning on 'Goyf as a blocker.

Also Counterspell, http://i.imgur.com/hAJGU9e.gif.

I imagine you are correct. Delver has been on the decline as of lately but I should be ready for it. I will think about a few deeds sb, I just know it limits what the other cards can and cant be. Needle, revoker, other low cmc perms cant be played alongside deed imho. Ideally the cards you bring in against different, non-deed needed, matchups are fine to be hit by deed but I want my cards to work cross matchups so it will be weird. Also, I will be trying a GQ in the sb for slower, grindy matchups where I can ghost lock players.

In the 4 games with counterspell, I have been very happy with it.

Also, I got to invasive surgery a natural order, my opponent was super surprised and sad but then I told him I didn't have delirium and he was fairly relieved.

I will look into a 15 for your perusing.

[H]

I imagine you are correct. Delver has been on the decline as of lately but I should be ready for it. I will think about a few deeds sb, I just know it limits what the other cards can and cant be. Needle, revoker, other low cmc perms cant be played alongside deed imho. Ideally the cards you bring in against different, non-deed needed, matchups are fine to be hit by deed but I want my cards to work cross matchups so it will be weird. Also, I will be trying a GQ in the sb for slower, grindy matchups where I can ghost lock players.

In the 4 games with counterspell, I have been very happy with it.

Also, I got to invasive surgery a natural order, my opponent was super surprised and sad but then I told him I didn't have delirium and he was fairly relieved.

I will look into a 15 for your perusing.

I've been running Invasive Surgery for a few weeks now, still have yet to have anyone cast a Sorcery while I had it in hand though. If Envelop was playable though, it has to be too.

The only thing I see that could be awkward about Counterspell is having so many Liliana. She isn't really condusive to keeping cards in hand, but then again, I am thinking about her in a world where I didn't have Painful Truths. That's definitely a difference now.

[sdematt]

I've been running Invasive Surgery for a few weeks now, still have yet to have anyone cast a Sorcery while I had it in hand though. If Envelop was playable though, it has to be too.

The only thing I see that could be awkward about Counterspell is having so many Liliana. She isn't really condusive to keeping cards in hand, but then again, I am thinking about her in a world where I didn't have Painful Truths. That's definitely a difference now.

Id almost want to play Ashiok instead - keep cards, busts up Control matchups as well.

[Ricardio]

I've been running Invasive Surgery for a few weeks now, still have yet to have anyone cast a Sorcery while I had it in hand though. If Envelop was playable though, it has to be too.

The only thing I see that could be awkward about Counterspell is having so many Liliana. She isn't really condusive to keeping cards in hand, but then again, I am thinking about her in a world where I didn't have Painful Truths. That's definitely a difference now.

I feel it hits enough spells we want it (infernal tutor, past in flames, dark petition, show and tell, ...etc)

Loam works great with lily as well, discarding unnecessary lands. I don't think I have lost a game where I had lily and jtms out.


Id almost want to play Ashiok instead - keep cards, busts up Control matchups as well.

dying to decay is kind of huge and not immediately effecting the board is another sad aspect. I could see it in the sideboard but what mu would it be for that we need the help with? Where does it shine? I want to jam it as much as the next person but I have tried it and results were not great.

[H]

I feel it hits enough spells we want it (infernal tutor, past in flames, dark petition, show and tell, ...etc)

Loam works great with lily as well, discarding unnecessary lands. I don't think I have lost a game where I had lily and jtms out.

Indeed, once you have both, it's almost something of a lock. The trouble is getting there sometimes.



dying to decay is kind of huge and not immediately effecting the board is another sad aspect. I could see it in the sideboard but what mu would it be for that we need the help with? Where does it shine? I want to jam it as much as the next person but I have tried it and results were not great.

I really have felt like Ashiok is a terrible card. At least, on paper. Dies to REB, doesn't effect the board the turn it comes down, might not even the turn after, the ultimate could be totally irrelevant since it doesn't play to the board at all. Sure, I've seen it win games, but not in Legacy that I can recall. There will be times where pretty much any Planeswalker gone unchecked will probably win you the game, but I can't see that being a real vote in favor of Ashiok, just in favor of a three mana 'walker. You could probably win some games with an unanswered Tibalt too, but that doesn't mean I want it in my deck.

I just think there are better ways to get a better match-up versus Miracles really.

[Ricardio]

I just think there are better ways to get a better match-up versus Miracles really.

Startled Awake? hahaha Seriously, with my build atleast, the miracles matchup seems decent so we don't need a ton of help from the board.

[H]

Startled Awake? hahaha Seriously, with my build atleast, the miracles matchup seems decent so we don't need a ton of help from the board.

Probably still better than Ashiok. OK, maybe not, but it would probably do about as much.

If the combination of Lili, Jace and Garruk can't get you there though, I doubt if anything can. Heck, I'd rather play Vraska the Unseen or Ob Nixilis Reignited than Ashiok, because at least those can do something the turn they come in. Of course they are 5 mana though, so it's doubtful they are worth playing at all.

[Ricardio]

Probably still better than Ashiok. OK, maybe not, but it would probably do about as much.

If the combination of Lili, Jace and Garruk can't get you there though, I doubt if anything can. Heck, I'd rather play Vraska the Unseen or Ob Nixilis Reignited than Ashiok, because at least those can do something the turn they come in. Of course they are 5 mana though, so it's doubtful they are worth playing at all.

Alright, let's not be too rude. I like Ashiok but here is not the place. I do agree with not necessarily needing more threats. What would you consider our bad matchups? Lands? Burn?

[H]

Alright, let's not be too rude. I like Ashiok but here is not the place. I do agree with not necessarily needing more threats. What would you consider our bad matchups? Lands? Burn?

Yeah, I'd say bad on Burn, UR Delver (if they are heavier on Burn, lighter on counters), probably Sneak and Show (especially if they are packing Blood Moon), Lands if they can combo relatively fast, maybe Turbo Eldrazi but depending on the build. That's what I can think of off the top of my head. Possibly RW Death and Taxes as well, since they can wreck our mana and, if we aren't prepared, wreck us with Magus. Maybe Reanimator, I'm really not sure, but certainly if we don't have DRS and they go fast.

I think most matchups fall in the even, or nearly so, category. I think Storm variants, mono-W Death and Taxes, Grixis Delver, RUG Delver are pretty close, we have the tools to beat them, but depending on the build it can be a real toss up, sometimes coming down to who is on the play, or how many Stifles they can fire off, how many Wastelands they see, etc.

I don't think Miracles is a real problem for this deck, built as I had it, for the most part. Of course, that is if your draw is reasonable. If you get a subpar one, they probably will crush you. You need pressure of some kind, constantly. I would say that even one turn beyond turn 4 or so with no threat, is going to be a loss for you. If you let them durdle around, spinning Top and not having to look for an answer, they will set up and crush you. You have to dictate the pace of the game, not allow them two-for-1's and settle in for a grindy game. I've found that if you try to win fast, they will take advantage and kill you. Since I only play paper Magic, I don't care if game 1 takes 50 minutes, because I know it generally favors me. If they think they can out grind me, we'll find out. I could be horribly wrong, but over time and playing BUG pretty often, I've found that my results say it's at least somewhat true.

[Ricardio]

Yeah, I'd say bad on Burn, UR Delver (if they are heavier on Burn, lighter on counters), probably Sneak and Show (especially if they are packing Blood Moon), Lands if they can combo relatively fast, maybe Turbo Eldrazi but depending on the build. That's what I can think of off the top of my head. Possibly RW Death and Taxes as well, since they can wreck our mana and, if we aren't prepared, wreck us with Magus. Maybe Reanimator, I'm really not sure, but certainly if we don't have DRS and they go fast.

I think most matchups fall in the even, or nearly so, category. I think Storm variants, mono-W Death and Taxes, Grixis Delver, RUG Delver are pretty close, we have the tools to beat them, but depending on the build it can be a real toss up, sometimes coming down to who is on the play, or how many Stifles they can fire off, how many Wastelands they see, etc.

I don't think Miracles is a real problem for this deck, built as I had it, for the most part. Of course, that is if your draw is reasonable. If you get a subpar one, they probably will crush you. You need pressure of some kind, constantly. I would say that even one turn beyond turn 4 or so with no threat, is going to be a loss for you. If you let them durdle around, spinning Top and not having to look for an answer, they will set up and crush you. You have to dictate the pace of the game, not allow them two-for-1's and settle in for a grindy game. I've found that if you try to win fast, they will take advantage and kill you. Since I only play paper Magic, I don't care if game 1 takes 50 minutes, because I know it generally favors me. If they think they can out grind me, we'll find out. I could be horribly wrong, but over time and playing BUG pretty often, I've found that my results say it's at least somewhat true.

first one to resolve a jtms or if you can get a threat going while disrupting them even a little. decay tops when they fetch. anything to knock them off their tempo.
I agree those are more than likely rough matchups.

I still need to work on a sb. what have you been working with?

[H]

first one to resolve a jtms or if you can get a threat going while disrupting them even a little. decay tops when they fetch. anything to knock them off their tempo.
I agree those are more than likely rough matchups.

I still need to work on a sb. what have you been working with?

My sideboard can often be a mish-mosh of crap. What I had thrown together was something like:

2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Krosan Grip
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Invasive Surgery
1 Life from the Loam
2 Golgari Charm
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Flusterstorm

At least, I think that was it. I had the BEBs because I expected some Burn decks, but they weren't there. Surgicals because I hate losing to Dredge. Sowers because I think they are good versus Eldrazi.

In the end, my board was pretty inconsequential. It is almost certainly misbuilt as well.

[Ricardio]

My sideboard can often be a mish-mosh of crap. What I had thrown together was something like:

2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Krosan Grip
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Invasive Surgery
1 Life from the Loam
2 Golgari Charm
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Flusterstorm

At least, I think that was it. I had the BEBs because I expected some Burn decks, but they weren't there. Surgicals because I hate losing to Dredge. Sowers because I think they are good versus Eldrazi.

In the end, my board was pretty inconsequential. It is almost certainly misbuilt as well.

Isnt Chill just a better sb card for burn? BEB just seems super underwhelming against most of the meta. I like sower but isn't control magic better since they cant really interact with enchantments? if they have no removal, then a 2/2 flyer is better. No V Clique? Seems especially good against SnS.
I am a fan of Needle, null rod and revoker in the sb, each hits things you need to deal with. Revoke LED :)
I don't own any flusterstorms so I usually run duress or negate.

SB
2 surgical
2 invasive
2 disfigure
2 duress
1 library
1 null rod
1 revoker
1 needle
1 g charm
1 deluge
1 V clique

Sample sideboard atm. nothing definite

[H]

Isnt Chill just a better sb card for burn? BEB just seems super underwhelming against most of the meta. I like sower but isn't control magic better since they cant really interact with enchantments? if they have no removal, then a 2/2 flyer is better. No V Clique? Seems especially good against SnS.
I am a fan of Needle, null rod and revoker in the sb, each hits things you need to deal with. Revoke LED :)
I don't own any flusterstorms so I usually run duress or negate.

SB
2 surgical
2 invasive
2 disfigure
2 duress
1 library
1 null rod
1 revoker
1 needle
1 g charm
1 deluge
1 V clique

Sample sideboard atm. nothing definite

The issue with Chill is that if it arrives "late" it won't do much, especially if they have played a few 1 drops before the Chill lands. There have been a number of times, especially versus something like UR Delver, where you have to hit a Swiftspear, which is why I mostly favor BEB. I also feel like it should be better versus Price of Progress, because even a 4 mana Price of Progress probably kills you outright, because we are generally pretty slow. I doubt if BEB is literally better than Chill though, even considering those things. There are other corner cases, like Fireblast, where I am fairly sure that BEB is indeed better, or versus something like a turn 2 Eidolon (even if Eidolon isn't really that great against this kind of deck). Basically, it comes down to play-style I think. I am more apt to want cards that are both good in opening hands and good later in the game. Chill looses a lot of value as the game goes on. I have also won games versus something like Sneak and Show due to BEB, along with Mono-Red Sneak Attack, but those are corner cases that really prove nothing at all, except that BEB and Chill are pretty different in that BEB stops something, where Chill only slows it down. There is a chance that if your Burn opponent draws a reasonable amount of lands, Chill doesn't do much.

While you are correct on the Control Magic vs. Sower of Temptation point, in that they are going to be bereft of answers to it, the issue is Reality Smasher, since that is what you will probably be aiming to take and the fact that Control Magic triggers it's ability, where Sower does not.

Clique is just an oversight really, it should have been in my board, had I thought about it more.

[Ricardio]

The issue with Chill is that if it arrives "late" it won't do much, especially if they have played a few 1 drops before the Chill lands. There have been a number of times, especially versus something like UR Delver, where you have to hit a Swiftspear, which is why I mostly favor BEB. I also feel like it should be better versus Price of Progress, because even a 4 mana Price of Progress probably kills you outright, because we are generally pretty slow. I doubt if BEB is literally better than Chill though, even considering those things. There are other corner cases, like Fireblast, where I am fairly sure that BEB is indeed better, or versus something like a turn 2 Eidolon (even if Eidolon isn't really that great against this kind of deck). Basically, it comes down to play-style I think. I am more apt to want cards that are both good in opening hands and good later in the game. Chill looses a lot of value as the game goes on. I have also won games versus something like Sneak and Show due to BEB, along with Mono-Red Sneak Attack, but those are corner cases that really prove nothing at all, except that BEB and Chill are pretty different in that BEB stops something, where Chill only slows it down. There is a chance that if your Burn opponent draws a reasonable amount of lands, Chill doesn't do much.

While you are correct on the Control Magic vs. Sower of Temptation point, in that they are going to be bereft of answers to it, the issue is Reality Smasher, since that is what you will probably be aiming to take and the fact that Control Magic triggers it's ability, where Sower does not.

Clique is just an oversight really, it should have been in my board, had I thought about it more.

Yes, you are correct in your evaluation of BEB vs Chill. Going forward, I will likely go with the former seeing as your argument was spot on.

I believe you are correct. I unfortunately thought control magic was targeting on resolution making it an ability but it needs a target to go on the stack.

Clique is very strong but not overly flashy which makes it easy to forget.

[H]

Yes, you are correct in your evaluation of BEB vs Chill. Going forward, I will likely go with the former seeing as your argument was spot on.

I believe you are correct. I unfortunately thought control magic was targeting on resolution making it an ability but it needs a target to go on the stack.

Clique is very strong but not overly flashy which makes it easy to forget.

BEB is also something that no one ever expects. I've certainly caught an opponent who didn't respect the possibility of BEB and only play around Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm with me having one Blue open. Also, if you ever face TES, you can put BEB in where Chill would probably be terrible, not that I ever tried it. Now, if we were playing Shardless, I could see playing Chill, since then most of the reason to consider BEB is gone.

Yeah, Auras target while they are being cast, which is very unfortunate. There may well be better cards to consider for Eldrazi, but in my haste to get the deck together those were what I had laying on my desk, from the last time I played Goddik-style TA.

In my list, Clique should really have been in there, because you want something to trade out Strix for versus Miracles. Even versus Losset-style Legends builds, I really don't see me wanting many Strix (if any) because the real problem is Venser-lock and Baneslayer. Strix isn't going to stop either.

[Tom4ik]

Here is my sideboard right now. I would probably need to tune it more for the miracles matchup as that has been the seeming weak spot so far with the 75 that I have played for a few weeks.

2 surgical extraction
2 spell pierce
3 thoughtseize
1 baleful strix
1 toxic deluge
1 jace, the mind sculptor
1 thrun, the last troll
1 life from the loam
1 krosan grip
1 golgari charm
1 pernicious deed


I think the deed and possibly strix could be moved to additional anti-miracles hate.

[Ricardio]

BEB is also something that no one ever expects. I've certainly caught an opponent who didn't respect the possibility of BEB and only play around Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm with me having one Blue open. Also, if you ever face TES, you can put BEB in where Chill would probably be terrible, not that I ever tried it. Now, if we were playing Shardless, I could see playing Chill, since then most of the reason to consider BEB is gone.

Yeah, Auras target while they are being cast, which is very unfortunate. There may well be better cards to consider for Eldrazi, but in my haste to get the deck together those were what I had laying on my desk, from the last time I played Goddik-style TA.

In my list, Clique should really have been in there, because you want something to trade out Strix for versus Miracles. Even versus Losset-style Legends builds, I really don't see me wanting many Strix (if any) because the real problem is Venser-lock and Baneslayer. Strix isn't going to stop either.

Surprise factor is a real thing, I will have to look into getting a pair of betas for my binder. Thanks for the suggestion!


Here is my sideboard right now. I would probably need to tune it more for the miracles matchup as that has been the seeming weak spot so far with the 75 that I have played for a few weeks.

2 surgical extraction
2 spell pierce
3 thoughtseize
1 baleful strix
1 toxic deluge
1 jace, the mind sculptor
1 thrun, the last troll
1 life from the loam
1 krosan grip
1 golgari charm
1 pernicious deed


I think the deed and possibly strix could be moved to additional anti-miracles hate.

I am not a fan of pierce out of the board. I suggest invasive: counters anything from infernal tutor to terminus. That or negate, :1: more and cant be played around. I also play seize mainboard so I have duress in the side. Grip seems to underperform and thrun doesn't seem like where I wanna be. More jtms, more better.

[wcm8]

I would like to talk about this list, which got 5th place in a 426-player event: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=20455&iddeck=156015

Maindeck:

1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
3 Baleful Strix
3 Gurmag Angler
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

3 Daze
3 Stubborn Denial
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
4 Preordain
1 Liliana of the Veil

1 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Sylvan Library
1 Null Rod
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Invasive Surgery
2 Golgari Charm
1 Disfigure
2 Dismember
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Surgical Extraction

A few thoughts:
1. The mana base seems solid. In testing, I rarely had issues casting anything.
2. Stubborn Denial is a great card. It's Spell Pierce with an upside, and with 7 creatures it's not that difficult to enable Ferocious.
3. Thoughtseize *does* seem to be the better discard spell in this deck as opposed to Hymn.
4. I'm not sold on Preordain. I still think Ponder is better.
5. Likewise, I think Jace, Vryn's Prodigy could just as well be a Snapcaster Mage or perhaps a TNN or a Vendilion Clique.
6. Some of the numbers could probably be played around with, depending on the metagame expectations. While 3 copies seems random at times, it actually tends to work out quite well.
7. The sideboard seems fine, but probably should be changed for an American metagame.
8. Delver is at its weakest in a deck without Lightning Bolt. So it makes sense for a BUG aggro/control deck to eschew Delver and instead just play bigger threats. I've been messing around with Thing in the Ice lately, but the conclusion I've come to is that I'd rather just play cards that are good on their own, without requiring much setup. I also am just not a fan of the whole Gitaxian Probe/Cabal Therapy thing. It's amazing at times, and yet awful at others. So I think this is probably a better approach towards playing BUG.

[Ricardio]

Wow that's quite a list but it's more along the lines of a delver less tempo deck. Stubby D is spicy but not reliable. I believe this deck gets a lot of power from surprise and shock value.

[H]

Surprise factor is a real thing, I will have to look into getting a pair of betas for my binder. Thanks for the suggestion!


Hydroblast is more than fine as a replacement for now, no one runs Misdirection really. Once you find some BEBs just swap them on the off chance it ever happens to come up.



I am not a fan of pierce out of the board. I suggest invasive: counters anything from infernal tutor to terminus. That or negate, :1: more and cant be played around. I also play seize mainboard so I have duress in the side. Grip seems to underperform and thrun doesn't seem like where I wanna be. More jtms, more better.

Indeed, I really don't like Spell Pierce in decks that don't run 4 Wasteland and aren't faster, tempo style decks. I want my top-decks to be bombs in this deck, not soft counters.

[Tom4ik]

Those are fair points on spell pierce. I run it as I mostly wanted a 1 mana counter to bring in strictly in the combo matchups where I want as much early interaction as possible. Bring in 5 1mana disruption spells plus the surgicals lowers the cost to do that. Flusterstorm could be better I suppose. The difference between a 3 wasteland deck (my number) and 4 is not really that big and this deck when it opens on deathrite shaman leaves the ability to play goyf or strix and still keep up pierce. I have been fine with it but maybe the envelope spell is better as hitting terminus and surgicaling it seems great.

[H]

Those are fair points on spell pierce. I run it as I mostly wanted a 1 mana counter to bring in strictly in the combo matchups where I want as much early interaction as possible. Bring in 5 1mana disruption spells plus the surgicals lowers the cost to do that. Flusterstorm could be better I suppose. The difference between a 3 wasteland deck (my number) and 4 is not really that big and this deck when it opens on deathrite shaman leaves the ability to play goyf or strix and still keep up pierce. I have been fine with it but maybe the envelope spell is better as hitting terminus and surgicaling it seems great.

Fair enough, I am not going to say it's bad, because if your plan is to bring it in versus Combo, that's fine, since against a Storm deck, even making them pay 2 can stop them.

I'd just want something that is harder to play around, but if you feel comfortable with them, I think it's fine. I just personally don't care for them.

[Ricardio]

Those are fair points on spell pierce. I run it as I mostly wanted a 1 mana counter to bring in strictly in the combo matchups where I want as much early interaction as possible. Bring in 5 1mana disruption spells plus the surgicals lowers the cost to do that. Flusterstorm could be better I suppose. The difference between a 3 wasteland deck (my number) and 4 is not really that big and this deck when it opens on deathrite shaman leaves the ability to play goyf or strix and still keep up pierce. I have been fine with it but maybe the envelope spell is better as hitting terminus and surgicaling it seems great.

I just feel that pierce is fine early but as the game progresses you either have to hope they are troubled on mana or hope you can catch them with it if they go for a convoluted line. I would rather have most anything else including negate and flusterstorm. At the IQ this weekend, I imagine there will be more unfair than fair deck as their usually is so I will look into changing some options in my mb in favor of combo hate.

What about a few lodestone golem in the sideboard? We can get it out t3. First few turns are discard and counterspells. It's a great clock and doesn't die to decay.


So I jammed about 8 games last night against shardless, all mb and then 2 sb games. I won about 5-6 of mb and we split the sb games. It came down to whoever flooded because the other would just bury the flooded in CA. I was playing a counterspell but I did not like it so I cut it and the 2 TNN for 2 deeds and the 4th strix. I also went down the forest to get 2nd CTP. I want to grind out my opponent. At this moment, I am swayed toward beating fair decks mb and I have some strong hate in the sb. I would like to stream like it so Sunday. I play this deck in a jund style because its what I enjoy and what im accustomed too. Trading, setting up and tee-ing off.

Garruk Relentless was an absolute house for me and loam was not an ignorable nuisance for my opponent. I have a GQ in the sb for grindy matchups that will attempt to lean on their basics but I want to spice it up with an exploration somewhere to create my own little lands effect.

[Ricardio]

played in a 26 man IQ Sunday

4 drs
4 strix
2 TNN
1 snap

3 lotv
3 jtms
1 garruk Rel

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 force
3 decay
1 pulse
1 loam
2 seize
1 painful truth
1 deluge

8 fetchs
3 sea
2 trop
2 bayou
1 swamp
3 waste
2 CTP


2-0 esper deathblade
The games were grindy and I was much better suited once the game slowed down to the pace I wanted.

2-0 Know and Tell
G1: double force and TNN+2 baleful strix clock.
G2: Opening hand is 2 lands, invasive surgery, duress, clique, negate, force. We find a clock and he cant win through counter wall.

0-2 Esperblade
G1: I keep a 1 lander with brainstorm. I whiff on lands and he wastes. Game ends when he keeps his 3 delver alive and resolves a stoneforge.
G2: I stabilize and he resolves TNN. I look through almost my entire deck but cant find the deluge in time.

1-2 Lands
G1: Manabonds, everything, lage, DED.
G2: He keeps slow hand and I go fast. needle on thespian stage.
G3: He has all the tools and I die to lage.

2-0 UB Tezz
When I am on BUG control, I cant seem to lose to this deck. I feel like im almost built to beat it.

9th place is good enough to win a stay in Frowntown as the mayor.

TNN was good but without equipment I feel he at a loss. Strix was amazing the entire time and I think of it as more of a cantrip/removal spell that can peck some damage away. Garruk was underwhelming. I wanted goyf most of the time except when my opponent brought in RiP. I believe I am driving up to Georgia this weekend for the legacy classic on Sunday so I will be testing and getting ready for that.

[Tom4ik]

Ricardio- I agree with you on the TNN. I think that unless you have an equip like jitte in the main then goyf is better. You wont face RiP in game 1 anyway. I think if you are worried about gravehate you can board TNN into matchups where you are likely to face RiP or just where you want additional hard to remove bodies.

I have actually been looking to remove TNN from either the MD or even the 75. That lets me open the 2 TNN/1 Jitte slot and have a main deck sweeper plus maybe some additional PWs.

[Ricardio]

Ricardio- I agree with you on the TNN. I think that unless you have an equip like jitte in the main then goyf is better. You wont face RiP in game 1 anyway. I think if you are worried about gravehate you can board TNN into matchups where you are likely to face RiP or just where you want additional hard to remove bodies.

I have actually been looking to remove TNN from either the MD or even the 75. That lets me open the 2 TNN/1 Jitte slot and have a main deck sweeper plus maybe some additional PWs.

Yes, as always, spot on.

I made quite a few changes to my mb

4 drs
4 goyf
4 strix

3 jtms
3 lotv

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 force
3 decay
1 pulse
2 hymn
1 loam
2 seize

8 fetches
3 sea
2 trop
2 bayou
4 waste
2 CtP (21 lands seems to be where I want to be)

I feel that being more aggressive in my creatures and discard it will give me the chance to turn corners faster. Thoughts on Edric?

[Tom4ik]

I also tried an Edric in the deck at one point. I thought that with Strix and Tnn/CTP you could refill the hand really well. Usually by the time the unblockables were getting in the game was at the point that you didnt need more cards. What I did like was that on turn 3-4 dropping edric meant that drs, strix and goyf all turned into extra CA spells. I also ran 3 snap casters through so an Edric seemed to make sense. It does open up the draw engine to removal spells though.

[Ricardio]

I also tried an Edric in the deck at one point. I thought that with Strix and Tnn/CTP you could refill the hand really well. Usually by the time the unblockables were getting in the game was at the point that you didnt need more cards. What I did like was that on turn 3-4 dropping edric meant that drs, strix and goyf all turned into extra CA spells. I also ran 3 snap casters through so an Edric seemed to make sense. It does open up the draw engine to removal spells though.

I would be trying it as a value 1 of. if I hit with 2 creatures and then they draw removal to kill him, ive netted a 3 for 1 which is fine for 1GU. In theory it seems fine but I will have to test it out.

[Tom4ik]

In my experience it is one of those cards that seems great and then in the course of playing the games you realize you pitch to force or bs more than you thought. When it works it is amazing as it turns the tide on a stalled game state in your favor. When its weak its weak tho as a 3 mana 2/2. I might actually try to play it again and shift some cards around.

[H]

I don't know about Edric. Seems like he is at his best when you need him least (i.e. if you have a bunch of creatures that are free to attack, you are winning). I would think he would be better in a deck where you had more creatures, of something like tokens/Young Pyromancer.

Thing is, in my thinking, I want my card advantage to be at it's best versus Miracles. Edric doesn't seem very good there. Maybe I'm wrong though, I never tried it.

[Ricardio]

I don't know about Edric. Seems like he is at his best when you need him least (i.e. if you have a bunch of creatures that are free to attack, you are winning). I would think he would be better in a deck where you had more creatures, of something like tokens/Young Pyromancer.

Thing is, in my thinking, I want my card advantage to be at it's best versus Miracles. Edric doesn't seem very good there. Maybe I'm wrong though, I never tried it.

I think you are misunderstanding edrics place. He is good by himself or with others, of course more people, more fun. I know that if they remove him, that's one less at goyf but if they don't get rid of him fast enough I can start drawing cards and outvalue them. too often I have a strix or 2 out, quite literally pecking away at my opponent while they try to find something to deal with them. When I start drawing cards off those 1 dmg pecks, the game becomes all but over. I haven't tested edric but I would like to give him a chance.

I agree but I don't feel like I have a bad miracles matchup. 6 planeswalkers main with a garruk in the side gives me a huge angle they can only react to. I think our bad matchups are eldrazi, burn and nic fit style decks.

[H]

I think you are misunderstanding edrics place. He is good by himself or with others, of course more people, more fun. I know that if they remove him, that's one less at goyf but if they don't get rid of him fast enough I can start drawing cards and outvalue them. too often I have a strix or 2 out, quite literally pecking away at my opponent while they try to find something to deal with them. When I start drawing cards off those 1 dmg pecks, the game becomes all but over. I haven't tested edric but I would like to give him a chance.

I agree but I don't feel like I have a bad miracles matchup. 6 planeswalkers main with a garruk in the side gives me a huge angle they can only react to. I think our bad matchups are eldrazi, burn and nic fit style decks.

Yeah, maybe I am just misunderstanding how he'll end up being used.

Even so, I am not sure he makes any of the bad matchups you listed better, but again, I am off the mind of excluding him, since I feel doubtful about his utility in a deck with only 8 "attacking creatures" (sure you could attack with Deathrite, but that just seems like your opponent isn't doing anything and you are winning).

I'd say try it, I genuinely unsure about it outside of theory, honestly.

[Ricardio]

Yeah, maybe I am just misunderstanding how he'll end up being used.

Even so, I am not sure he makes any of the bad matchups you listed better, but again, I am off the mind of excluding him, since I feel doubtful about his utility in a deck with only 8 "attacking creatures" (sure you could attack with Deathrite, but that just seems like your opponent isn't doing anything and you are winning).

I'd say try it, I genuinely unsure about it outside of theory, honestly.

You are correct. he doesn't really help bad matchups, now that I think of it, he doesn't do much for anything but decks we are favored already. I will test drive him when I get a chance but I feel you may be correct.

Outside of BEB/hydro, we don't have much for burn and eldrazi seems like a real issue since we are a control style deck. I don't know how often we will see nic fit style decks so I would chalk that up to unfortunate pairings. From my experience against eldrazi, attacking their hand is key but you cant go through them and only few decks can go over them. here we lean on huge goyfs and lotv, hope to waste they caverns and catch a few with forces.

[Tom4ik]

For reference, when I played an Edric I had 4 drs, 4 goyf, 2-3 strix, 3 snap and 2 Tnn plus the CtP so that is a fair amount of creatures. To be fair I was also playing him before Truths came out. I think that Painful truths is the reason this deck is comparable to shardless. That card is great and I am running 2 plus 1 sylvan but am strongly considering dropping sylvan and going 3 truths.

I am surprised you lose to nic fit Ricardio. I have always run between 2-3 basics ( either forest/swamp sometimes island) and have never lost to a nic fit deck. Jace is amazing against them. goyf gets huge. They run more long term power but we can tempo them out and with truths and bs/ponder we can find out cards better.

[Ricardio]

For reference, when I played an Edric I had 4 drs, 4 goyf, 2-3 strix, 3 snap and 2 Tnn plus the CtP so that is a fair amount of creatures. To be fair I was also playing him before Truths came out. I think that Painful truths is the reason this deck is comparable to shardless. That card is great and I am running 2 plus 1 sylvan but am strongly considering dropping sylvan and going 3 truths.

I am surprised you lose to nic fit Ricardio. I have always run between 2-3 basics ( either forest/swamp sometimes island) and have never lost to a nic fit deck. Jace is amazing against them. goyf gets huge. They run more long term power but we can tempo them out and with truths and bs/ponder we can find out cards better.

I am playing a comparable amount of creatures as well.

I hadn't lost to nic fit, I just imagine that is a matchup we are weak to. I also run no basics at this moment in time.

[Tom4ik]

Running no basics makes the nic fit deck harder to beat. I know you post in that thread as well so I am sure you know a bit from both sides. By running basics you get Fow turned on as a 1 for 1 and because I run snap caster you just CA them into the ground with snap and truths and bs. BS when your opponent gives you 2 free land drops is something that deck has trouble with. Goyf gets huge so it only takes 2 hits really to but them within tar pit range. It would be a bizarre tournament though if changing your deck to beat Nic fit was what needed to happen. Either way I do think some amount of basics is probably right.

Edric probably makes more sense in a gsz bug style deck. Having mana dorks, arbor and goyf early and gsz to find scooze and things like edric seems interesting. This probably is just a deck that wants Natural Order though honestly so idk where Edric fits.

[Ricardio]

Running no basics makes the nic fit deck harder to beat. I know you post in that thread as well so I am sure you know a bit from both sides. By running basics you get Fow turned on as a 1 for 1 and because I run snap caster you just CA them into the ground with snap and truths and bs. BS when your opponent gives you 2 free land drops is something that deck has trouble with. Goyf gets huge so it only takes 2 hits really to but them within tar pit range. It would be a bizarre tournament though if changing your deck to beat Nic fit was what needed to happen. Either way I do think some amount of basics is probably right.

Edric probably makes more sense in a gsz bug style deck. Having mana dorks, arbor and goyf early and gsz to find scooze and things like edric seems interesting. This probably is just a deck that wants Natural Order though honestly so idk where Edric fits.

I am reluctant to jam snap because he is another gy based component albeit I trust its strong enough and when I foresee gy hate coming, I can shave accordingly.

How many basics do you suggest? 21 lands has been fine for me.

Yes, I have dismissed edric from possibilities for this deck.

The more I think about it, the more I want to play something in between bug delver and shardless. like a delverless, agentless, midrange deck. not tempo, not comb/value.

[Pherion]

Brewing a bit, and wondering if a list like the one here is playable. It's been a while since I've played tempo, so I don't have the feel of the deck. I'd prefer not to just copy someone else's list, so I brewed up this one. It has a much more classic tempo feel to it, with the addition of multiple Painful Truths to kind of mimic the seedy days of Treasure Cruise. I remember doing really well with a BUG delver deck back then, and often spending 3 mana for a cruise - truths can be that far behind?

Lands (20)
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

Spells(26)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Force of Will
3 Hymn To Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Painful Truths
3 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce

Sideboard isn't built yet, but I'm considering cards like:

Flusterstorm
Force of Will
Golgari Charm
Toxic Deluge
Liliana of the Veil
Null Rod
Pithing Needle
Submerge
Thoughtseize
Tormod's Crypt

[H]

Well, like you said, your list is a tempo deck, so it is better placed in the BUG Delver thread. As for the list, well, it seems a bit top heavy for tempo, with that many 3-cmc cards.

I ran the same list as I did about two weeks ago (sorry, on my phone, can't link right now) and was 3-1. I beat a White Stax deck, an Imperial Taxes, and Colorless Eldrazi. I lost to UR Delver.

The White Stax deck was nearly a bye, I have enough removal and a timely Force in game 1, Library and enough threats to beat him game 2.

I wasn't happy about facing a red Death and Taxes and game all the answers he needed, Wastelands, Ports, and an early Vial. Game 2 we have an interesting battle over Jittes, but I have more removal so mine goes active first. Game 3 he mulls to 5 and ends up with only one land when the game ends. Got lucky here.

UR Delver is a terrible matchup, I mull to 6 and he just has enough burn to get me. Game 2 I slow him down with Goyfs, but he ends up having Price of Progress with Force backup.

I finally beat Eldrazi. Game 1 he crushes me with Thought-knots and Smashers. Game 2 I manage to steal off a big Goyf and a Sower stealing a Reality Smasher. Game 3 he has awkward mana and a Baleful Stix slows him down enough for me to get in a Garruk and flip it and with a Goyf, he can't race Deathtouch Wolves.

In the end I was both lucky and unlucky, I only had 2 games all night that I didn't have to mull, but still managed to top 4. I'm starting to think that 3 Truths might be too many, when I can finally play again, I will try just 2. I also had a Dismember in my board this time and I really liked it.

[Ricardio]

A friend of mine is going to gp Columbus and was testing reanimator to find out its awful atm so I offered my bug control deck and he loves it. Hopefully he does well! I can post the list I gave him.

[H]

A friend of mine is going to gp Columbus and was testing reanimator to find out its awful atm so I offered my bug control deck and he loves it. Hopefully he does well! I can post the list I gave him.

I'm curious about the number of Ponders. I know you have been running 4, but I have been pretty pleased with 0, which honestly has been a surprise to me. I thought I really would dislike the inconsistency, but really it does give you more live top-decks and, of course, less need to worry about Chalice on 1. In one of my Eldrazi games, he slammed a Chalice on 1 that literally had no bearing on the game. Less fluff gives me more bombs, in a way, but less ways to find them. I think in this meta, that might be better.

[Ricardio]

I'm curious about the number of Ponders. I know you have been running 4, but I have been pretty pleased with 0, which honestly has been a surprise to me. I thought I really would dislike the inconsistency, but really it does give you more live top-decks and, of course, less need to worry about Chalice on 1. In one of my Eldrazi games, he slammed a Chalice on 1 that literally had no bearing on the game. Less fluff gives me more bombs, in a way, but less ways to find them. I think in this meta, that might be better.

4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 drs
2 seize

that is my 1 cmc suite.

I also play 3 decay and 1 pulse so I can deal with them but the 3 lotv can get rid of fluff from my hand. I also play 4 baleful strix, 4 goyf, 3 wasteland and 1 loam all mb. I would hope the eldrazi matchup isn't awful. I and my friend played a few games against both eldrazi stompy and eldrazi post he only lost games where the draws were severely lobsided. Being totally honest, not many decks can handle t2 tks and t3 uncoutnerable smasher so I wont worry about that. THe sideboard I have set up seems so so.

2 negate
2 invasive
2 surgical
1 clique
1 library
1 null rod
1 needle
1 deluge
1 garruk relentless
1 g charm
1 disfigure
1 cage

[Tom4ik]

I am on 2 Ponder. I run 3 snapcaster so I want to keep the options for snaping high. Snap brainstorm is still the most common but ponder isnt terrible as topdeck. Snap is mostly there to provide a great combo match though with post board pierce, TS and surgical.

I run 4 Decay/1 pulse/2 Lily. I just made a switch of -2 TNN -1 Jitte to +JTMS, +deluge, +Hymn so that I now have 3.

Board is
2 TNN
1 Jitte
1 Thrun
2 TS
2 Surgical
2 Pierce
1 Kgrip
1 GCharm
1 Loam
1 Needle
1 Library

Basically the idea is to have 2 halves. You have the TS, Pierce, Surgicals that come in against the combo and then the fair cards that fow and usually goyf (in response to RIP at least) come in. So you lose goyf but get 3 hexproof guys and a jitte.

[Ricardio]

I am on 2 Ponder. I run 3 snapcaster so I want to keep the options for snaping high. Snap brainstorm is still the most common but ponder isnt terrible as topdeck. Snap is mostly there to provide a great combo match though with post board pierce, TS and surgical.

I run 4 Decay/1 pulse/2 Lily. I just made a switch of -2 TNN -1 Jitte to +JTMS, +deluge, +Hymn so that I now have 3.

Board is
2 TNN
1 Jitte
1 Thrun
2 TS
2 Surgical
2 Pierce
1 Kgrip
1 GCharm
1 Loam
1 Needle
1 Library

Basically the idea is to have 2 halves. You have the TS, Pierce, Surgicals that come in against the combo and then the fair cards that fow and usually goyf (in response to RIP at least) come in. So you lose goyf but get 3 hexproof guys and a jitte.

most of the things they bring in for strix will hit tnn for me so that's not an avenue. I hate pierce as a card. I would rather pay the extra :1: and counter the damn spell. Thrun just seems underpowered, I like relentless more as its not easily dealt with albeit uncounterable is real text. I have mb seize and I will not go below 2. its been so strong and hymn compliments it well.

[Tom4ik]

- I am not sure what cards ppl would bring in for Strix. That seems wrong to SB a card for a 1/1 flyer that cantrips. I am not worried about -1 sweepers. Toxic delgue is the only one and that hits any creature you have.
- I understand why you dislike pierce. In fact that is why I cut the card from the maindeck. The reason I like pierce (and this could probably be flusterstorm honestly) is that it is 1 mana interaction. Against Combo where we have Lily/Hymn to really go to work on their hand I just want additional cheap interaction and 2 mana spells will be harder to leverage.
- I run the 2 TS side. I am not sure where our lists differ though. Do you have MD hymn? I have 3 right now but am not sure I want to stay that high. Without a jitte the only life gain is Drs and with Truths and deluge already looking to use life I am not sure I need the TS main. I am not sold that that is correct yet though so I am still open.
- Your right in that Thrun is basically the same slot as Garruk. I could swap that for Garruk and see how that plays out. I like the fact that Thrun just hits the table. 4/4 isnt overly big but it should be enough that it forces a sweeper itself. Idk, ill test the Garruk in that spot too.

[Ricardio]

- I am not sure what cards ppl would bring in for Strix. That seems wrong to SB a card for a 1/1 flyer that cantrips. I am not worried about -1 sweepers. Toxic delgue is the only one and that hits any creature you have.
- I understand why you dislike pierce. In fact that is why I cut the card from the maindeck. The reason I like pierce (and this could probably be flusterstorm honestly) is that it is 1 mana interaction. Against Combo where we have Lily/Hymn to really go to work on their hand I just want additional cheap interaction and 2 mana spells will be harder to leverage.
- I run the 2 TS side. I am not sure where our lists differ though. Do you have MD hymn? I have 3 right now but am not sure I want to stay that high. Without a jitte the only life gain is Drs and with Truths and deluge already looking to use life I am not sure I need the TS main. I am not sold that that is correct yet though so I am still open.
- Your right in that Thrun is basically the same slot as Garruk. I could swap that for Garruk and see how that plays out. I like the fact that Thrun just hits the table. 4/4 isnt overly big but it should be enough that it forces a sweeper itself. Idk, ill test the Garruk in that spot too.

- golgari charm and marsh casualties come to mind

-there is just so many better cards than pierce, albeit im not a fan of counterspells in the first place. just a green mage with some forces.

-2 hymn, 2 ts. I couldn't justify pruths sadly, I have a lot of CA but not enough life gain to make multiple pruths ok. wish I could.

-I appreciate you giving it a try and I hope he performs well. I just don't like a 4/4 in a world of 5/5s if you know what I mean.

I will discuss with my friend as to whether he has thought of any suggestions and report back.

[Tom4ik]

-Unless someone sees Tnn in game 1 I cant imagine charm or marsh casualties get brought in for strix. Otherwise snap/strix provide value even if they get swept.
-I want to have multiple options for snap against combo post board. Having TS/Pierce let me have that option and make snap a quicker card to play. I also have hymn if I get to 4 mana.
-I am guessing that at least one of your CA spells you have MD is loam which I play in the SB so that is probably 1 spell that 'could' be a truths though I know you are a fan of the loam.
- If I can make it to the 4 round tonight I'll play a garruk in my board instead of the thrun. It does seem that it comes into matches in the same spot.

[Ricardio]

-Unless someone sees Tnn in game 1 I cant imagine charm or marsh casualties get brought in for strix. Otherwise snap/strix provide value even if they get swept.
-I want to have multiple options for snap against combo post board. Having TS/Pierce let me have that option and make snap a quicker card to play. I also have hymn if I get to 4 mana.
-I am guessing that at least one of your CA spells you have MD is loam which I play in the SB so that is probably 1 spell that 'could' be a truths though I know you are a fan of the loam.
- If I can make it to the 4 round tonight I'll play a garruk in my board instead of the thrun. It does seem that it comes into matches in the same spot.

-you are correct, I was just saying it to prove your point

-I just hate that card. I already play force, why cant that be enough? haha

-1 loam mb for life, bud. that card has been the strongest in the 75, consistently.

-I hope you make it and he performs well for you.

[Tom4ik]

I went 1-2 Drop last night.

Lost to Grixis delver. Flooded out game 1. He had angler and I played jace. I bstormed thinking bouncing really doesnt get me anywhere but actually if I bounce and his tokens kill jace I will have a 5 power goyf. Game 2 I just ground him out with removal and double wasteland took him off casting anything for too long. Game 3 He had turn 3 tnn and pyro and I had deluge but played it a turn too early. My next sylvan turn showed me back to back fow that would have pushed the deluge through.

Beat Aluren. Game 1 I had a huge goyf that just clocked him too quick. He landed aluren but nothing to do with it. Game 2 he had discarded the parasitic and the witness and Drs ate them so his combo was off but I was beaten down to low life and his 2 Drs checked mine. Game 3 I landed turn 1 drs, decay his, TS, snap TS and he never really recovered from there.

Lost to Elves. Game 1 was all about the play. He went first and killed me turn 3. I didnt have a force but did have the deluge. Game 2 I ride sylvan library into lily and garruk. Garruk pinged and then spammed wolves but I liked the option to sac a wolve to get a snap. Didnt end up mattering that game but it could have. Game 3 We both went Drs into library. He had lots of mana but nothing to do with it. Garruk pinged and then died. I never found a sweeper or force so he eventually found and cast craterhoof.

The matchups were find. Aluren honestly felt like the worst. I think not seeing many forces vs elves was what did me in. I need to be able to stop the NO or the glimpse and the game I had fow was the game I won. Pierce could be something else maybe. either straight up CS or maybe fluster. Idk.

[sdematt]

I went 1-2 Drop last night.

Lost to Grixis delver. Flooded out game 1. He had angler and I played jace. I bstormed thinking bouncing really doesnt get me anywhere but actually if I bounce and his tokens kill jace I will have a 5 power goyf. Game 2 I just ground him out with removal and double wasteland took him off casting anything for too long. Game 3 He had turn 3 tnn and pyro and I had deluge but played it a turn too early. My next sylvan turn showed me back to back fow that would have pushed the deluge through.

Beat Aluren. Game 1 I had a huge goyf that just clocked him too quick. He landed aluren but nothing to do with it. Game 2 he had discarded the parasitic and the witness and Drs ate them so his combo was off but I was beaten down to low life and his 2 Drs checked mine. Game 3 I landed turn 1 drs, decay his, TS, snap TS and he never really recovered from there.

Lost to Elves. Game 1 was all about the play. He went first and killed me turn 3. I didnt have a force but did have the deluge. Game 2 I ride sylvan library into lily and garruk. Garruk pinged and then spammed wolves but I liked the option to sac a wolve to get a snap. Didnt end up mattering that game but it could have. Game 3 We both went Drs into library. He had lots of mana but nothing to do with it. Garruk pinged and then died. I never found a sweeper or force so he eventually found and cast craterhoof.

The matchups were find. Aluren honestly felt like the worst. I think not seeing many forces vs elves was what did me in. I need to be able to stop the NO or the glimpse and the game I had fow was the game I won. Pierce could be something else maybe. either straight up CS or maybe fluster. Idk.

Your current list?

[Ricardio]

Mine or his?

[Tom4ik]

List I played last night was one without anything changed except moving all the hymns to the board and bring in strix/deluge main.

Current List:
2 underground sea
2 bayou
2 tropical island
2 creeping tarpit
3 wasteland
1 swamp
1 forest
2 misty rainforest
3 polluted delta
3 verdant catacombs


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 tarmogoyf
3 snapcaster mage
2 baleful strix
2 True Name Nemesis

4 brainstorm
4 force of will
2 jace, the mind sculptor
2 liliana of the veil
2 painful truths
2 ponder
4 abrupt decay
1 maelstrom pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SB
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Life from the loam
2 hymn to tourach
1 krosan grip
1 golgari charm
2 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
1 Pithing Needle
2 surgical extraction
1 sylvan library
1 baleful strix


I feel like my deck is a bit too scattered right now though as I look at it. Looks a little awkward but the deck is very versatile. I think more MD discard in either hymn or TS would be good.

[Ricardio]

I aimed somewhere between Bug Delver and Shardless: I think I hit the nail on the head by trimming delver fragility and cutting the durdliness of the shardless engine. Leaning on planeswalkers and the fast clock team of goyf and drs allow my death owls to be removal or peck away at my opponent.

My List Currently:

4 DRS
4 Goyf
4 Strix

3 Lotv
3 JTms

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 force
2 hymn
2 seize
3 decay
1 pulse
1 loam

4 delta
4 verdant
3 sea
2 bayou
2 trop
1 ctp
1 forest
1 swamp
3 wasteland

SB is in flux atm:
2 surgical
2 invasive surgery
2 negate
1 v clique
1 library
1 garruk relentless
1 needle
1 null rod
1 deluge
1 g charm

[Ricardio]

My buddy is currently 5-2 w the deck.

[BigV54]

Sorry for the late report out, but work caught up with me after I neglected it for the GP. I went 5-4 with Ricardio's list, one win off of making day 2 of my very first GP. For reference, the list after a last minute edit was:

Creatures:
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Baleful Strix

Spells:
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Thoughtseize
2x Hymn to Tourach
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Life from the Loam

Planeswalkers:
3x Liliana of the Veil
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands:
4x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wasteland
3x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Swamp
1x Forest

Sideboard:
2x Invasive Surgery
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Negate
1x Sylvan Library
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Pithing Needle
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Golgari Charm
1x Disfigure
1x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Null Rod
1x Grafdigger's Cage

Shout out to Ricardio for saving my bacon after a last minute need to hop off of Reanimator Sunday before the GP. The changes made were adding a forest in place of a tar pit to let us cast abrupt decay under a blood moon. The blue blast in the side over a negate was a nod to playing in a legacy GP with no byes using a deck that's very soft to burn. Plus it can hit Nahiri if you're matched up against a miracles player who hasn't woken up from that dream yet.

My journey in Columbus started with running in a pair of last chance trials on Friday, both being single elim. First one out I get trounced by reanimator nut draws. I quickly throw $25 at the side event desk conveniently located on the other side of the event hall. Second one I stave off tin fins in a close match, followed by a win against dredge. Third match I play against Painter and lose by a landslide when he moons me on turn 2 twice. I also learned that pyroblast with painter out is a one mana stone rain. Fun stuff. After these games I make the two changes I described earlier, one as a reaction to the moon effects and two as a reaction to not having any byes.

Saturday comes and much to my surprise, I don't have the jitters and nervousness I usually get before a tournament. This lasted all day and I was ecstatic, I feel like that helped my play tremendously.

Round 1: Matt on TES (0-0)

Game 1 he wins the roll and I keep a solid 7 with no force as he mulls to 6. He turn one makes 14 goblins and I concede before he gets too much info. I sideboard horribly here. I have never played against TES, only seen lists, and all but one card he played looked to me like belcher. After the match I tell him this and he gives me a quick run down of how to identify TES from belcher.

Game 2 we both keep 7 and I get quick disruption followed by goyf getting in for 4. I misplayed here, preeeety badly. My hand is surgical, force, strix and he's at 5 after goyf gets in. I decide to hold strix because I thought the extra turn I give him is worth having force up. He draws and passes. I draw land, hit him to one and pass. He draws, exhales deeply, and with underground sea as his only permanent, casts dark ritual. I think for a minute and decide to force it, hoping to pinch his mana. He allows that and casts petal. Realizing he's got mana now, I surgical the burning wish I thoughtseized earlier, thinking that's his best chance to kill me. I get one from his hand and then he plays petal, LED, LED, crack both, hold priority infernal tutor for empty and make 18 goblins with me at 17. I smile at the fact that I boarded in deluge and kept pulse, knock on my deck and draw the land. After we talk about it, we came to the conclusion that not playing the strix was fine, but assuming we can pinch his mana when he's got a full grip was foolhardy. I vow to get byes next time and move on.

Round 2: Craig on Lands (0-1)

Game 1 after some opponent switching due to match slip errors, we both keep 7 and I get a quick double goyf opener. He finds combo just before I attack for lethal and Lages me.

Game 2 I thoughtseize away his exploration, counter his crop rotation and gamble attempt, and get there before he draws any gas.

Game 3 he starts off with tabernacle, mox diamond pitching depths, and diamond pitching depths, followed by loam. I play needle naming stage. He sets up a gamble that I force and I follow up with null rod. Goyf crushes face before he draws enough mana to play cards. He seems a bit upset at losing this one, whereas I'm jumping for joy for beating this awful matchup.

Round 3: Igor on Eldrazi (1-1)

Game 1 I wasteland him twice on the play after turn one DRS.

Game 2 I mull to 6 and keep a hand with goyfs, a strix, a thoughtseize and lands. Strix does the trade thing and goyf hits as a 5/6 and dominates the board. He seemed new to the deck and audibly commented how a 5/6 goyf just beats him, as if it was news.

Round 4: Sean on Grixis Delver (2-1)

Game 1 is a total slugfest, the only thing I truly remember is a board of 3 DRS on his side and 2 on mine. He for some reason didn't aggressively activate even though he wins those battles. I come up with a great quote as I ask him what beats 3 deathrites. He says what and I drop two 6/7 tarmogoyfs I got off of a brainstorm.

Game 2 he plays delver turn one, I answer with deathrite. He plays brainstorm on upkeep to flip and plays his own deathrite. I take the 3 and disfigure his delver then decay his deathrite. Liliana comes down after I force her through and cleans up.

Round 5: Will on Infect (3-1)

Game 1. This is, honest to God, the first time I've played against legacy infect. I know, that's just piss poor preparation, especially considering I proxied the deck to add to my playgroups legacy gauntlet only a couple weeks ago. He trounces me when he chooses to (correctly) buff his inkmoth instead of blighted agent when I had abrupt decay up.

Game 2 I play double strix to hold back the nexi while goyfs fat up the ground and roll in for the kill.

Game 3 I think I tilted him, the game goes almost exactly as 2, and as he's ready to give in, he casts probe and sees I've been holding onto golgari charm and deluge even though he has a glistener elf and 2 noble hierarchs in play. He scoops and walks off pretty quickly. He was actually a good opponent, not really a douche I swear. Just obviously tilting and hard.

Round 6: Juan on BUG Delver (4-1)

Game 1 was incredibly close, and came down to who had more deathrites. I had more deathrites.

Game 2 was also very good, and very long and very grindy. WE PLAYED SOME REAL MAGIC! I swear I think this was my favorite game all day. I don't recall all of the exact plays unfortunately, but basically I had Liliana that negged for a goyf then got deacyed. I then played another and put him in topdeck mode. Very fun match and I could really start to tell I was facing better players.

Round 7: Eli on Infect (5-1)

Game 1 I actually mulligan to 4. Decay, ponder, force, forest. Scry see wasteland. See an opportunity to win if he kept a one lander or something dumb like that. That's not what happens and I scoop once I see inkmoth and know what he's on. During boarding I see the true advantage of playing an off-meta deck as he's audibly trying to deduce whether I'm BUG delver, shardless BUG, or something else.

Game 2 he continuously tries to guess what I'm on as we play, and after turn one drs into turn two ponder and goyf, he's sold on BUG delver. Then I force his blighted agent pitching jace and he looks at me puzzled. I cast strix on my turn and he looks nauseous. He swings with inkmoth anyways and then I learn berserk gives trample. After the games he asks me a ton of questions about the deck and we have a great conversation about why Sharted BUG (my name for the deck BTW) is better than shardless. Great guy, he ends up 11-4? Hopes to get silver next GP. Good luck to him.

Round 8: Rich Cali on Miracles (5-2)

Game 1 he straight bodies me with an insane mentor turn after I have to go all out to stop a jace.

Game 2 I get the dream curve :) turn 3 Liliana, turn 4 Garruk, turn 5 Jace. I finish, he scoops.

Game 3 was a heartbreaker. I know he most likely did not mean it literally, but Ricardio told me if you have Jace and Liliana out, you can't lose. Wellll....... He cliques me, uses that to kill Lili that had to neg to kill a snapcaster, and pyroblasts my jace since he knows the coast is clear. It was a bit of a swing turn. He notes that Invasive Surgery doesn't seem great against him, and that the fact that I'm forced to sandbag deluge for mentor makes you play sub optimally if that's your only answer.

Round 9: Matt on Eldrazi (5-3)

Game 1 I mull to six and a turn 2 smasher with double mimic out on the play ends my face.

Game 2 I stave off the early aggression and slam a Jace with him having one relevant card. I immediately fateseal and keep him drawing lands, I have double force double blue card. I absolutely punt the game when I decide to let him keep warping wail, just to force it when he plays it realizing it goes ham with his jitte. I bottom the next card and have to force his endbringer he topdecks, and then the turn before I ult Jace, he plays the All Is Dust he had the whole time. Great patience and my misplay lead to my defeat. 5-4 finish.

Overall, I loved the deck. It felt great and I had a blast at my very first GP. The experience was capped off by Tim Horton's coffee and donuts and the most insane finals I've ever seen.

I'm acquiring the cards to build the deck myself and hope to be active in this thread as I have a lot of ideas that I'm sure I'll be told why they won't work. Of course I have to do a bit of reading to see what's already here. Thank you for reading and thank you again Ricardio for the hook up!

[Ricardio]

Haha good read. I disagree with the miracles player, but not because hes on miracles. Invasive is fine against him and deluge can clean up mentors/angels but sadly at sorcery speed.

[BigV54]

His point was that the surgery really only hits terminus of note and it doesn't go with the board plan i went with of cutting goyfs and going more for walker dominance. And yeah his point with deluge was that i have to wait until he goes ham with mentor and just sandbag it until then. Several times i could not plus liliana because he had 3 cards one of which i know is mentor and i only had deluge. I wanted it to be pernicious deed sooooooooo bad. Btw I'm preeeety sure my board plan was shit, i cut 4 goyf, 4 strix, 4 force and added 2 surgery, 2 surgical, negate, garruk, clique, library, deluge, charm, needle, and null rod

[sdematt]

Tim Hortons is the best. #GoCanada

[Ricardio]

His point was that the surgery really only hits terminus of note and it doesn't go with the board plan i went with of cutting goyfs and going more for walker dominance. And yeah his point with deluge was that i have to wait until he goes ham with mentor and just sandbag it until then. Several times i could not plus liliana because he had 3 cards one of which i know is mentor and i only had deluge. I wanted it to be pernicious deed sooooooooo bad. Btw I'm preeeety sure my board plan was shit, i cut 4 goyf, 4 strix, 4 force and added 2 surgery, 2 surgical, negate, garruk, clique, library, deluge, charm, needle, and null rod

Boarding out goyfs is wrong. surgicals isn't really where you wanna be against miracles. I could see taking out the forest, 4 force, 2 seize, 3 strix for 2 surgery 1 negate, 1 garruk, 1 clique, charm, deluge, needle, null rod, library. Hymn is still good against him and abrupt decay as well so maybe charm and deluge aren't necessary. I board on the fly so its weird. I don't think goyfs come out unless its against a White deck you assume is running more than 1 rip. Thoughts on illness in the ranks?

[Tom4ik]

I have been testing the Garruk maindeck just so I can see how it plays. I was pleasantly surprised. That card is actually very useful and while even just a wolfblossum is good in many cases if it flips and starts morphing strix and snaps into goyfs/Tnns its amazing. Good call on this card.

[Ricardio]

I have been testing the Garruk maindeck just so I can see how it plays. I was pleasantly surprised. That card is actually very useful and while even just a wolfblossum is good in many cases if it flips and starts morphing strix and snaps into goyfs/Tnns its amazing. Good call on this card.

I am glad it has worked out for you. Definitely much stronger since the rules change and just another hard to deal with threat. Wolves transforming into goyfs in pretty great. Like some kind of new age animorphs haha

[BigV54]

Reason i cut goyfs was that i know my opponent will bring in rip and if i don't need to remove it that's more decays for counterbalance and a tapped top. Plus if their rip sticks their snaps are turned off. I basically wanted it to hurt them more without them realizing it. Still probably wrong but that was the thought process.

[Ricardio]

Reason i cut goyfs was that i know my opponent will bring in rip and if i don't need to remove it that's more decays for counterbalance and a tapped top. Plus if their rip sticks their snaps are turned off. I basically wanted it to hurt them more without them realizing it. Still probably wrong but that was the thought process.

Yes. In rip matchups you cut some goyfs but my list has planeswalkers and such to go through. 9 cards my effected means little effect. Good miracle pilots take out counterbalance against bug deck.

[Ricardio]

so the list I plan on trying next:

4 drs
4 strix
4 goyf

3 lotv
3 jtms

4 force
4 bstorm
4 ponder
3 decay
1 pulse
1 loam
3 seize

4 verdant
4 delta
3 sea
2 trop
2 bayou
3 wasteland
1 CTP
1 forest
1 island
1 swamp

SB:

2 surgical
2 disfigure
1 null rod
1 needle
1 vclique
1 g relentless
1 deluge
1 negate
1 invasive S
1 g charm
1 s library
1 G cage
1 massacre

notable mb change is -2 hymn, +1 island +1 seize albeit that may be wrong and I will likely miss hymn.
SB seems more diverse and covers more bases. Felt like I previous had too much storm hate for so little of the meta so that shifted.
Strix continue to be insane even in unfair matchups - pitching to force and clock slowly.
island as the 22nd land may not stay but being able to play basics will always come at a price.
Decay seems fine at 3 with pulse as the pseudo 4th.

[maharis]

Hi, I have been tinkering with a BUG Zenith deck because I find the Shardless deck a little boring but enjoy having access to DRS and Abrupt Decay. I also think Zenith is worth a look with the new Leovold, Emissary of Trest, since one-sided cantrip hate can be very strong. (Also, you draw a card if you are Wastelanded with it out).

The idea is to ramp on turn 1 and leverage the mana advantage with Daze, Zenith, and Jace. A virtual 7 Deathrites and 5 Goyfs helps you find strong finishers. Strix is a great defender and works well with Volrath's Stronghold and Tarmogoyf.

Today I took this 75 to the SCG classic.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Trygon Predator
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Ponder
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sylvan Library
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Volrath's Stronghold

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Life from the Loam
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Engineered Plague
1 Krosan Grip
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Pithing Needle
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Dread of Night

R1: W 2-1 Infect
R2: D 1-1-1 Nic Fit
R3: W 2-1 Miracles (Garruk Relentless was really good here, as was Dread of Night in shutting down his mentor win)
R4: L 1-2 4C Delver (Close. Really needed Wastelands to support Dazes)
R5: L 0-2 Elves
R6: W 2-1 Pox
R7: W 2-1 Reanimator
R8: L 0-2 Death & Taxes (A little fluky. I kept 4 lands + DRS, Zenith, Maelstrom Pulse game 2 and drew 3 lands in a row, then Loam)
R9: L 0-2 Infect

I'd like to continue iterating, any ideas?

[H]

I'd like to continue iterating, any ideas?

My intial reaction is that Daze and Zenith don't seem like a real good combo, since you want your lands in play. GSZ makes this an even more mana-hungry BUG deck, which we already usually are.

[maharis]

My intial reaction is that Daze and Zenith don't seem like a real good combo, since you want your lands in play. GSZ makes this an even more mana-hungry BUG deck, which we already usually are.

Well, with 7 pieces of acceleration and 7 2-drops the curve is lower. GSZ isn't really there to find huge bombs but to serve as additional copies of our most efficient creatures while also being a piece of acceleration itself. With Wasteland backup an early Daze with acceleration in play can be devastating. This is the premise a lot of the successful Bant decks have operated under.

I built this deck to be resilient against Miracles and it has done that -- I beat it at the classic and again last night in a weekly -- but it is a little slow/weak to faster decks, so I am considering tilting the sideboard more to that.

Leovold intrigues me for a few reasons: It's both GSZable and Force-pitchable, it's an asymmetric effect, and it's probably a little better against the combo decks of the format than True-Name Nemesis. TNN is great when it lands, but I have found that I can't dig one up when I want (usually when a RIP is in play) and sometimes it can be played around (either by comboing off or having a counter or -1/-1 effect.)

I can see this card taking some of the slots currently held by Strix, TNN, and Sylvan Library in my deck and being a staple for a non-Shardless BUG archetype. The fact that it's not protection from everything is mitigated by the fact that if it is targeted you get a card back -- and almost any cantrip deck has to nuke this before it can move on. There is nothing commonly played in Legacy that kills Leovold "for free" that doesn't also kill True-Name (and in fact he gets around the -1/-1 effects that come up at times. This includes Terminus, Toxic Deluge, Council's Judgment, EE for 3, Deed for 3, REB on the stack. It should also be noted that "target player sacrifices a creature" effects DO trigger this card thus replacing itself in a situation where TNN would just die. Also this thing triggers off Rishadan Port, how insane is that? Their port becomes your Library of Alexandria. Anyway, the card is sick.

[H]

Well, with 7 pieces of acceleration and 7 2-drops the curve is lower. GSZ isn't really there to find huge bombs but to serve as additional copies of our most efficient creatures while also being a piece of acceleration itself. With Wasteland backup an early Daze with acceleration in play can be devastating. This is the premise a lot of the successful Bant decks have operated under.

I built this deck to be resilient against Miracles and it has done that -- I beat it at the classic and again last night in a weekly -- but it is a little slow/weak to faster decks, so I am considering tilting the sideboard more to that.

Fair points. I'm biased, because I really don't like Daze in BUG lists. Also, it nearly always feels like a total brick versus Miracles. Frankly that is probably more so about how I am approaching the match up rather than anything else. However, one reason I got away from Delver is because I simply did not want to run Daze, because bother Delver and Daze always seemed to cost me more games versus Miracles than they ever win me.

In my mind, GSZ sets you in more the mid to late game, attrition through always having more threats available. Daze really only shines in the early game. I don't know, I know some Bant decks seem to be using it to decent effect, but I simply don't get it. Perhaps they are using Daze to get to the midgame? I really don't know, but I know on turn 6 I'd love to see GSZ and would hate to see Daze.


Leovold intrigues me for a few reasons: It's both GSZable and Force-pitchable, it's an asymmetric effect, and it's probably a little better against the combo decks of the format than True-Name Nemesis. TNN is great when it lands, but I have found that I can't dig one up when I want (usually when a RIP is in play) and sometimes it can be played around (either by comboing off or having a counter or -1/-1 effect.)

I can see this card taking some of the slots currently held by Strix, TNN, and Sylvan Library in my deck and being a staple for a non-Shardless BUG archetype. The fact that it's not protection from everything is mitigated by the fact that if it is targeted you get a card back -- and almost any cantrip deck has to nuke this before it can move on. There is nothing commonly played in Legacy that kills Leovold "for free" that doesn't also kill True-Name (and in fact he gets around the -1/-1 effects that come up at times. This includes Terminus, Toxic Deluge, Council's Judgment, EE for 3, Deed for 3, REB on the stack. It should also be noted that "target player sacrifices a creature" effects DO trigger this card thus replacing itself in a situation where TNN would just die. Also this thing triggers off Rishadan Port, how insane is that? Their port becomes your Library of Alexandria. Anyway, the card is sick.

Indeed, I think he is a great card, the question is how many to try to fit in. One thing I like is that if they don't remove him and aim at your "bigger" threats, he is going to draw you cards. So he basically passively nerfs your opponent's cantrips until they -1 removal spell for him. I preordered two and I'll probably start there and see how he goes.

[maharis]

Fair points. I'm biased, because I really don't like Daze in BUG lists. Also, it nearly always feels like a total brick versus Miracles. Frankly that is probably more so about how I am approaching the match up rather than anything else. However, one reason I got away from Delver is because I simply did not want to run Daze, because bother Delver and Daze always seemed to cost me more games versus Miracles than they ever win me.

In my mind, GSZ sets you in more the mid to late game, attrition through always having more threats available. Daze really only shines in the early game. I don't know, I know some Bant decks seem to be using it to decent effect, but I simply don't get it. Perhaps they are using Daze to get to the midgame? I really don't know, but I know on turn 6 I'd love to see GSZ and would hate to see Daze.

Daze is a mixed bag but it does a few things. One, it pitches to Force, and having extra blue cards in these Uxx midrange decks is always good because so many of your most powerful cards are non-U, but Force is your only line of defense at times. Second, the mana curve of legacy is creeping up a bit. Eldrazi and Show & Tell decks definitely don't want you landing consistent pressure with Daze backup.

Even Miracles can be open to Daze if they try to squeeze in an inopportune Mentor or Jace. Also against Miracles, if you have Abrupt Decay in your deck, you're more open to countering Top since you have a way to nuke CB and don't have to hold your counters for that. So if you are on the play and can daze their Top while holding up Decay and patiently answering their threats, they get put on their back foot, and they hate that. Postboard, I took out almost all the free counterspells anyway -- I may have still had 1-2 Force in there but I prefer to fight them on the board anyway, especially with non-creature permanents.


Indeed, I think he is a great card, the question is how many to try to fit in. One thing I like is that if they don't remove him and aim at your "bigger" threats, he is going to draw you cards. So he basically passively nerfs your opponent's cantrips until they -1 removal spell for him. I preordered two and I'll probably start there and see how he goes.

I think he could be really good in the matchups where I've had trouble (which are the faster Delver decks mostly), since he makes their removal into a 1 for 0 and blanks a decent portion of their deck (including Wasteland!) I'm ordering a few today.

[H]

I think he could be really good in the matchups where I've had trouble (which are the faster Delver decks mostly), since he makes their removal into a 1 for 0 and blanks a decent portion of their deck (including Wasteland!) I'm ordering a few today.

Small possibility I can make FNM this week. Highly experimental build with Leo:

2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4 DRS
4 Goyf
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Scavenging Ooze
13

2 Jace TMS
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Liliana
5

2 Painful Truths
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
3 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Green Sun's Zenith
21

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Wasteland
1 Geier Reach Sanitarium
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
21 lands

Sideboard:
1 Krosan Grip
2 Baleful Strix
2 Dread of Night
1 Virtue's Ruin
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
2 Golgari Charm
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Just a start of brainstorming some updates to my old list. Sideboard is a mess, I want some extra hate versus Death and Taxes, there is often quite a bit of that in our small local group (but this is probably too much). The Strixes were for Eldrazi, but I think people have been moving away from that lately, but still is good versus Angler, if you can dodge Forked Bolts.

Sanitarium is no doubt bad, but I'd like to try it. I don't want too many GSZs though, deck is already mana-hungry as hell. Might try to goldfish this and see how it feels if I get a chance.

[Agrippa91]

Hi guys!

Didn't really know a deck besides BUG Delver and Shardless BUG existed, so I made an own one in the brew portion. I was wrong so here I am now, presenting you the list I've been working on:

It plays a bit like BUG Delver, but without Delvers. The main similarity is the curve that doesn't go over 3, only 20 lands and 4 dazes with 4 wastelands.

Daze offers BUG early game interaction that helps gaining an early advantage. The thing with BUG Delver I fear most are its card advantage cards paired with disruption: A t2 Hymn to Tourach or Dark Confidant that gets paired with a t1 thoughtseize or backed up by a Daze can gain an early lead. Also Liliana helps a lot with a deck that plays her as a top curve and has no problem dumping its hand. But there's a new 3-drop on the block:

The new card Leovold, Emissary of Trest helps a lot with the disruption plan. Here's why:
Against fair decks he's good when your opponent doesn't have removal. We play already creatures at 1 and 2 that are "have to be removed" material. Now Leovold makes finding additional removal extremely difficult. Not does he stop the opponent's cantripping, he also trades 2-for-1, drawing a card as soon as he gets targeted by removal.
Against combo Leovold pitches to FoW, prevents the opponent from cantripping and draws a card every time we get targeted with Discard.
Things he does include:
- preventing Jace from using any ability profitably except fatesealing oneself.
- preventing Griselbrand from drawing cards
- drawing you a card any time the opponent uses targeted abilities like Jitte, Rishadan Port, Wasteland or Maze of Ith, effectively shutting these abilities off most of the time.
- drawing a card every single time a copy of Tendrils of Agony targets you. Note that we have 2 Mindbreak Traps in the sideboard.
- Prevents draws from Glimpse of Nature and Elvish Visionary, shutting down 2 of the 3 avenues from Elf players to win (third being Natural Order)
- draws a card any time a burn player plays a burn spell.


The relatively high 3 toughness offer offensive as well as defensive potential against Thalia, Young Pyromancer, Shardless Agent, Snapcaster Mage and other utility creatures.


So here's the plan: We have 10 "payoff" cards that give us card advantage: 2 Hymn to Tourach, 2 Baleful Strix, 2 Dark Confidant, 2 Liliana of the Veil and 2 Leovold. Sticking one of these early is really important with this deck. We ensure this with Thoughtseize and Daze as early interaction and Ponder to dig for it backed up by FoW.

Of course we can't play a tempo oriented BUG list without 4 DRS, 4 Goyfs (push through damage) and 4 Abrupt Decay (since this deck is more midrange we'd rather play this than Lightning Bolt, even if we had the choice). Note that these goyfs tend to be biggere than "Delver-Goyfs" at 4/5 because we have 2 Artifacts and 2 Planeswalkers in the deck. Getting it up to 5/6 is quite important since this can block the opponent's Angler and Reality Smasher which are pretty big players in the metagame (we have a healthy distribution otherwise and e.g. have enough sorceries in the gy).

I tried out Jace, but having to go up to like 22 lands made Daze very weird (we got stuck with too much lands in hand and had to delayJace because we kept bouncing back lands with Daze). Daze is really at its best when you can use the land drop because you have no other land in hand. I also overestimated the difference between 3 and 4 mana. So I went back to 20 lands and smoothed out the early game.

You don't really want to Daze anything with only 1 land out that doesn't lose you the game. Dazing with 2+ mana sources is fine since then next turn we can just play something for 2 mana again.

This deck plays pretty much like a Delver deck only that it's not damage you're trying to gain early on and leverage to the end game but card advantage. Similar decks would be Stoneblade of any flavor. I have the feeling though that we're better against combo than they are.

Enough talk, here's the list I've been working on:

Lands (20):
4 Underground Sea
3 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

Creatures (14):
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Dark Confidant
2 Baleful Strix
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

Instants and Sorceries (24):
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Planeswalkers (2):
2 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard (15):
2 Pithing Needle
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Invasive Surgery
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Disfigure
2 Marsh Casualties
1 True-Name-Nemesis
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


The matchups should be rather 50/50 across the board, here's some boarding plans for the most common matchups:

Miracles (going full midrange):
-4 Daze
-4 Wasteland
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Nihil Spellbomb
+2 Invasive Surgery
+1 True-Name-Nemesis
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor (though we're cutting Wastelands we also pitch Dazes, getting to 4 mana in time is not that much of a problem, plus he pitches to FoW)

Shardless BUG (grinding, but with more tempo):
-2 Thoughtseize
-4 Force of Will
+2 Invasive Surgery ( against Hymn, Visions and Deluge most importantly)
+2 Disfigure
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Eldrazi:
-2 Thoughtseize otp/-2 Hymn otd
-2 Leovold, Spymaster of Trest (one of the only matchups he's actually bad in)
+2 Disfigure
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 True-Name-Nemesis

Grixis Delver:
-2 Thoughtseize otp/ -2 Hymn otd
-2 Liliana of the Veil
-2 Force of Will
+2 Disfigure
+2 Marsh Casualties
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 True-Name-Nemesis

RUG Delver:
-2 Thoughtseize otp/ -2 Hymn otd
-2 Force of Will
+1 Nihil Spellbomb
+2 Disfigure
+1 True-Name-Nemesis

Death & Taxes:
-2 Hymn to Tourach (Wiltleaf Liege, hard to cast with Thalia out)
-2 Daze
-2 Liliana of the Veil (Wiltleaf Liege, hard to cast with Thalia out)
-2 Force of Will
+2 Pithing Needle
+2 Disfigure
+2 Marsh Casualties
+1 True-Name-Nemesis
+1 Maelstrom Pulse

Lands:
-2 Thoughtseize
-2 Hymn
-2 Abrupt Decay
-2 Baleful Strix
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Nihil Spellbomb
+1 Surgical Extraction
+2 Invasive Surgery
+1 True-Name-Nemesis
+1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Elves:
-2 Baleful Strix
-2 Liliana of the Veil (clunky, just eats a 1/1)
-2 Force of Will (we have 2 Surgeries to counter Glimpse and NO, GSZ if need be)
+2 Invasive Surgery
+2 Disfigure
+2 Marsh Casualties

Infect:
-2 Hymn to Tourach (we'd rather affect the board or pick/see with Thoughtseize)
-2 Liliana of the Veil (too clunky, just runs into Spell Pierce and Daze)
-2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest (too clunky, abilities don't matter that much against aggro)
+2 Pithing Needle (Inkmoth is especially hard to hit with Decay as standard removal)
+2 Disfigure
+2 Marsh Casualties

Burn (thoughtseize for assured t1 interaction needed I think):
-4 Wasteland
-2 Dark Confidant
+2 Disfigure
+2 Invasive Surgery
+1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 True-Name-Nemesis

Matchups in general:
I hope this deck provides an approach to tempo that allows to play more midrange against Miracles (4 Decays help a lot) with having the chance to grind out the games post-sideboard. It also seems rather good against Aggro thanks to the huge goyfs, Lilianas and Strixes, at least as far as I've tested against Delver. Leovold is just insane against lands as I had to witness just the other day.
I think this deck might be bad against other grindy decks that go "bigger" like Esper Deathblade and Shardless BUG, I'm not too sure though because I haven't tested these matchups yet.

I switched to MtGO a while ago and only play casually with Proxies in paper so unfortunately I don't get to test as much with this deck as I'd love to. I'll eventually build this deck online though once Conspiracy is out there. So far (playing paper with a friend) it has really impressed me and is a blast to play.
This deck wrecks lands more than you might think (Daze to protect early Punishing Fires, 4 Wastelands, Leovold is just insane).

I can imagine this deck having problems against super grindy midrange decks, e.g. Shardless, perhaps even the new BIG Eldrazi deck with Oblivion Sowers etc. It should be rather good against Miracles though tbh. It's definitely good against delver and lands as far as I've tested. I also can't imagine the storm matchup to be unfavorable, also because this deck plays rather similar to Shardless BUG.

[H]

Well, I think your list is decent. It's hard for me to evaluate, but it's not far from the 20 Land Delver lists I used to run (complete with 2 Liliana). However, Leovold didn't exist at the time, so I am not sure about now having four 3 drops, which doesn't sound like much, but that is double what I was running. One thing is that I am absolutely biased against Daze in this kind of deck. You have no real Tempo plays once you cut Delver and Daze is pretty poor outside the Tempo plan. Does it have some utility? Sure. But on the balance of things, it just seems at odds with 3 Bayou and all the three drops.

My idea in the post above is to go a very different direction, by cutting Daze and moving to a more tap-out base, to maximize you chances to out-'Goyf your opponent through Green Sun's Zenith. I honestly hate Daze in BUG decks, because I find that we are far more mana hungry than we are built for Tempo.

Again, I haven't been able to test but I look forward to seeing what your results might be.

[H]

Well, I tried out my GSZ-Leovold deck above a couple weeks ago. First off, I totally misbuilt it, had only 59 cards when I went to play, somehow had 3 maindeck Toxic Deluge, and was generally rusty as all hell. Even so, I think the idea has merit, even though the list was misconstrued as could be. I got nut-drawn by UWR Blade, beat Miracles handily (Leovold was a total house) and lost a very close match to Burn (Price of Progress OP). (Only 3 rounds, just 8 of us.)

This is an interesting list that it seems won the 216 person Ovino over the weekend (splashing Red):

Tomáš Már
Deck (60)
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster mage
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Kolaghan’s Command
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Painful Truths
3 Wasteland
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island

Sideboard (15)
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Pyrobalst
1 Thoughtseize
1 Life from the Loam
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Forked Bolt
1 Marsh Casualties
3 Diabolic Edict

[theMonster]

@H, thanks for posting the Már list. I tried something similar last night.

3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Wasteland

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Kolaghan’s Command

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

2 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Collective Brutality
1 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

// sideboard //

2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Duress
1 Unearth
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Darkblast
1 Go for the Throat
1 Fire Covenant
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vendilion Clique

I went 2-2, beating Shardless in a three-game slugfest, losing to Painter (though I almost won game 1 on a mull to 4; drew five lands in a row and ran out of steam), beat Burn (Collective Brutality was insane, especially when I got to flash it back), and got rolled by Lands (having combo in hand when I keep a two-Deathrite hand stung a bit).

Cards that were great:
- Snapcaster Mage. I always wanted to draw it, so I think three felt good. Granted I faced no Rest in Peaces.
- Vendilion Clique. It was nice to add another threat against Shardless that dodged Liliana and have a meaningful, disruptive clock against combo.
- True-Name Nemesis. Pretty self-explanatory.
- Kolaghan's Command. I only saw it once, killing a Deathrite and getting back a Goyf. But even then, it was nuts.

Cards that weren't so hot:
- Baleful Strix. I didn't see Eldrazi, but I felt like it had little impact in my games. Small sample size, certainly, but I almost always wished it were a Delver for a faster clock. Plus with a glut of removal, thanks to Snapcaster, I think I'd rather use spells to kill creatures and put pressure on my opponent.

Cards I'm unsure about:
- Collective Brutality. Man, so good against Burn. And I could see scenarios where I, say, kill a Delver or Deathrite and take a removal spell. Getting it countered hurts a bit, though. But I don't have enough reps with the card to know for sure if it's better than something like Hymn to Tourach, a fourth one-mana discard spell, or removal. I'm gonna leave it in for now, but I'm on the fence.
- Counterspell. Since the games go longer in this build, I think it's better than running taxing countermagic like Spell Pierce. The extra :u: is real concern, as sometimes T1 interaction is necessary. Not sure about this one.
- Swamp. I'm glad I had it in my deck against Painter and Lands, so maybe it's worth it. Not being able to run more fetches that find it isn't great, though; I don't want to play Bloodstained Mire because it doesn't find my two Tropical Islands, but maybe the fifth black fetchland is better than the ninth blue one.

I think a strategy like this has a lot of promise. There wasn't any Miracles in the room, so I didn't play cards like Painful Truths and tried to get my card advantage with stuff like Unearth and the third Snapcaster. Maybe I should skew more towards the Már list for better results next time. I'm open to any and all feedback.

Thanks!

[limbo]

I have been playing Bant stoneblade a ton (including a classic top 2 and top 16). I experimented with Leovold a bit, but bant wasn't the right deck for it. This ports over a lot of the things that were great about the Bant deck into a more stable shell. I am a lover of 7 dorks. Noble is an outstanding magic card. I have often heard Jund and BUG players talk about how much better their deck is and their games are when they have T1 Deathrite. Noble fills that role well, moving all of the overpowered cards in the deck slightly down curve and pushing ahead of your opponent. The Bant deck works because it jumps curve so well, and there is no reason not to do that in BUG. I have worked this deck up and really like it. Delver matchup is playing much better than the Bant deck and mana is far better (Bant has to play a black splash). Curious what others think.
(Of note, the sideboard is a disaster, as is often true of early versions). I like the 1 of Tombstalker I have been testing with but it is probably better as the 4rth TNN, like the bant deck.

Main Deck
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Baleful Strix
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 True-Name Nemesis
1 Tombstalker

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
2 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
1 Murderous Cut
2 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Sylvan Library

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
1 Disfigure
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Dread of Night
1 Hyrdoblast
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor

[limbo]

Updating after a bunch of testing.

Main Deck
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Baleful Strix
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
2 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
2 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Sylvan Library

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Disfigure
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Hyrdoblast
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Krosan Grip
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor

Other cards on my sideboard radar: chill, dread of night.

[Ricardio]

Hierarch is seriously a playable card in bug midrange?

No jtms mb? 8 mana dorks and no real pay off?

[limbo]

Hierarch is seriously a playable card in bug midrange?

No jtms mb? 8 mana dorks and no real pay off?

This is ported over from my Bant stoneblade deck. Most shardless players will tell you that games with deathrite and without are hugely different. Noble fills a similar role, and the fact that it can always generate mana is very powerful. Yes it really is playable, and the jump of 3 drop on T2 is enough payoff. With both noble and Deathrite in hand, noble is normally the better early game play. That they have other value later is a bonus.

JTMS is a card I do like main, but I have mostly wanted it against miracles and other midrange decks. The jittes and jaces were originally swapped, but I have been facing lots of delver, eldrazi, D&T and shardless, so in that environment I like this arrangement. (Yes I bring the Jaces in against shardless but jittes are also strong there).

[Whitefaces]

Just want to chime in and say that I've been on Bant for a little while now and have started experimenting with Hierarch in BUG too. I posted about it a little bit in the Shardless thread but I didn't get a great response and the thread isn't the most active, but I'd advise against passing off the card too fast. With Leovold, three drops have become ridiculously powerful and the payoff is there without even delving into 4cmc PWers imo. Thanks for starting a discussion up on this limob, I'm going to keep trying out different builds, but DRS + Hierarch + Leo will be a package in all of them. This Elf Advisor is the real deal.

[btm10]

My big question here is how is the Eldrazi matchup? When I was playing Stoneblade variants recently I thought that the biggest problem with that matchup was how difficult it was to stabilize without Batterskull, especially if they had an early Chalice. TNN obviously puts in work here, but he isn't eating Eldrazi the way Goyf or Angler can, nor are you able to leverage the lifelink on Batterskull. Is the plan just to go on the Wasteland/TNN offensive and counter anything that threatens a race? Legitimately curious.

[limbo]

My big question here is how is the Eldrazi matchup? When I was playing Stoneblade variants recently I thought that the biggest problem with that matchup was how difficult it was to stabilize without Batterskull, especially if they had an early Chalice. TNN obviously puts in work here, but he isn't eating Eldrazi the way Goyf or Angler can, nor are you able to leverage the lifelink on Batterskull. Is the plan just to go on the Wasteland/TNN offensive and counter anything that threatens a race? Legitimately curious.

I have had good results thus far against Eldrazi but only play a few matches thus far (4-2). The jitte in the main, instead of the jace, and the dismember are a concession to sure up Eldrazi and delver matchups. Smasher is the biggest problem, and what I save my forces for. The ramp allows us to keep up well, and decays give us reasonable outs to chalice and early creatures. 4 wastelands and some dazes are all outstanding with that matchup. I am very comfortable with this build against aggressive decks of all strips. What I want to do now is run more matches against miracles and combo to make sure I haven't swung too far into the anti-aggro realm. For example, it is possible that the dismember should be another daze or a thoughtseize, and that the board should have 2 duress.

[btm10]

That all seems reasonable. The only big change I'd argue for if you want to improve your Miracles matchup is considering a couple of copies of actual factual Counterspell in the main. I played the Miracles matchup a bunch with TNN BUG in 2014 (my lists are probably about 15-20 pages back if you want to see them) and it seemed quite good. I can't imagine Leovold making it any harder.

[theMonster]

After reading about people's success with Hierarch in BUG decks in this thread, I took this brew to a 6-rounder yesterday and finished 3-3. Two of my losses were very close (and one felt hopeless), so it could've easily been a 4-2 or, with some better variance, 5-1 day. So although the record was disappointing, I'm optimistic about the archetype. I wanted to post the list and get feedback.

Here's what I registered:

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

2 Thoughtseize
1 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
3 Wasteland

// sideboard //

3 Surgical Extraction
1 Containment Priest
1 Pithing Needle
2 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Duress
1 Disenchant
1 Dread of Night
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Garruk Relentless

I mulled to five twice and to four once (losing all those games), and I had only one T1 mana dork --> T2 3-drop start. Maybe the deck performed below its capabilities then.

Round 1: Maverick

My opponent was an accomplished player, so I knew this would be a tough one. Mulling to Hierarch + four lands in game 1 certainly didn't help. And in game 2 perhaps I should've been more judicious with my two Decays. I burned one on a Deathrite when he had Plains + Bayou and then Wasted the Bayou, hoping to get him. He followed up with two Moms, a Pridemage and a Jitte. GG.

Round 2: Eldrazi

This was a nailbiter and could've gone either way. Game 1 mull to 5 again, and I couldn't stabilize. Game 2 Leovold drew me at least five cards after being targeted by two Thought-Knot Seers and his Oblivion Sowers. I think he Warping Wailed a dude, too. And I got to Clique in draw step, taking his Jitte and preventing him from drawing a replacement card. I won that game. But in game 3, a Mimic did about 10 damage to me after I dealt with a Seer, Sower, and Smasher. I thought I had stabilized, but a crucial Warping Wail on my Hierarch kept me off the five mana I needed to execute my game-winning plan. I couldn't deploy my threats and equip Jitte in the same turn. He ended the game with no cards in hand, and I had I think three that would've been on the battlefield had I had one more mana. Close one.

Round 3: Bant

Leovold shut off his Brainstorms for a long time and drew me a couple cards. His resolved True-Name didn't end up mattering, as I had all the tempo. Game 2 I somehow beat an active Jitte and Jace by topdecking my own Jitte and connecting with a creature to kill his one-toughness dudes. He couldn't find more threats, and I got the match.

Round 4: Grixis Delver

Leovold was the all-star again, negating my opponent's topdecked Probe and Brainstorm after he Therapied away two of my True-Names - ouch. Equipping Jitte sealed the win. Game 2 I ended up Swordsing his two Deathrites to allow my own to function. I tried to cut him off red by double Wastelanding his Volcanics and then Surgicaling in response to a fetchland; turns out he ran a Badlands. But eventually I found a Wasteland for that one, too. He had a True-Name idling in hand because he knew I held a Zealous Persecution, giving me enough time to Brainstorm into a Hierarch and a Snapcaster to Swords his Angler.

Round 5: RUG Delver

Game 1 I Swordsed his Delver and Wastelanded his only Island. Game 2 came down to a crucial turn, which I probably misplayed. He had a Goyf and True-Name in play. I had four lands, an active Deathrite, and Leovold on the table with a Zealous Persecution, Decay, and Flusterstorm in hand. I Decayed the Goyf to get cheeky with Leovold while his True-Name was tapped. I opted to save my Zealous for his turn, in case he played another one-toughness creature. He attacked with True-Name, I took it, then he deployed a Delver, leaving him with three cards in hand. End of turn, I Zealoused, he cast a Counterspell, I Flusterstormed, and then got blown out by Daze on Zealous. My line was super greedy, but I figured he couldn't Brainstorm into countermagic and could beat one spell with my Flusterstorm. Not playing around Daze there lost me the game, but I don't know if it was correct to do so or not. Game 3 I got both my Leovolds countered despite having counter backup each time, then got triple Wastelanded and my mana dorks destroyed. Tough match, but I thought it was winnable, especially game 2.

Game 6: RB Reanimator

Game 1 I mulled to four and got wrecked. Game 2 I Surgicaled his T1 discarded Chancellor. Then he got a Griselbrand into the graveyard and went for an Exhume with two lands and a fetchland. I Wastelanded the fetch in response, then in response to the fetchland, I Dazed. I could've Surgicaled right then, but I didn't want him to Entomb in response or something. I had all the answers and two active Deathrites after that. Game 3 I just had everything, and he couldn't resolve a threat. I stripped him of two Sneak Attacks, to boot.

Overall the deck did some cool things. Leovold was incredible all day except against BR Reanimator, where 3-drop threats don't really work if they're not Clique. I feel like I won in spite of having Hierarch in my deck, though. Small sample size, but he only got me a T2 True-Name once, which got Forced. I did have T1 mana dork twice against RUG Delver, and in game 1 it got immediately Bolted. But overall, I don't think it was instrumental in any of my wins. It certainly helped pressure Jace when my only threat was a Strix, so there's that. One of the dual lands could most likely become a fetchland - not sure whether to play 3 Seas + Savannah or 3 Trops + Scrubland - but I liked how many land drops the deck made, especially with Snapcaster in the deck (which was great all day). I even Snapped back a Daze on a True-Name against Bant. Perhaps I'd play a hard Counterspell over one of the soft permission spells - probably the third Daze. The deck most likely needs refining, but for a first effort, I was encouraged. I'd probably go down to two Hierarchs and play something else in that slot. If a couple cards fell another way, I might've had a much better day.

Curious about your feedback. Thanks for reading!

[limbo]

Overall the deck did some cool things. Leovold was incredible all day except against BR Reanimator, where 3-drop threats don't really work if they're not Clique. I feel like I won in spite of having Hierarch in my deck, though. Small sample size, but he only got me a T2 True-Name once, which got Forced. I did have T1 mana dork twice against RUG Delver, and in game 1 it got immediately Bolted. But overall, I don't think it was instrumental in any of my wins. It certainly helped pressure Jace when my only threat was a Strix, so there's that. One of the dual lands could most likely become a fetchland - not sure whether to play 3 Seas + Savannah or 3 Trops + Scrubland - but I liked how many land drops the deck made, especially with Snapcaster in the deck (which was great all day). I even Snapped back a Daze on a True-Name against Bant. Perhaps I'd play a hard Counterspell over one of the soft permission spells - probably the third Daze. The deck most likely needs refining, but for a first effort, I was encouraged. I'd probably go down to two Hierarchs and play something else in that slot. If a couple cards fell another way, I might've had a much better day.

Curious about your feedback. Thanks for reading!

This is going to sound like the pot calling the kettle black, since I have played 4c Bant for most of the past year and done well at a few classics with it, but I think at this point the white splash is probably an unnecessary reach. Leovold is a very good card, but he is much worse when you are behind and he is much worse when you have to strain your manabase to play him, which is why I cut him from my Bant deck. I ran into games where one wasteland from the opponent would make me have to choose between casting my white spells or my Leovold. The fourth color will on occasion make it so Leo comes down a turn later, and this can dramatically reduce his effectiveness.

I could see running a white dual and some white cards in your board, much the way shardless did for a time to play meddling mage, but I think you are asking for trouble going straight 4c like this. Especially since you don't have mystic and equipment to dig you out of an early hole.

Edit: it should be noted that I am turning away from the 4c Bant almost exclusively because the mana is a weak stop, despite 7-8 dorks. Turning to BUG but keeping the dorks is an attempt to keep the mana advantage while stabilizing a real weakness.

[limbo]

Updated my list a bit to be less all-in-delver-hateful. This version is much stronger against Miracles, largely because the G1 percentage is much better. Added the 20th land, basic forest, to make land drops a bit more consistent and give the additional coverage against opponent land hate. Ran a bunch of test games against Miracles, Esper Mentor, and Lands yesterday. Positive results on all of them. Lands is a very close matchup (missing the StP from Bant) but winnable and that deck is trending down slightly. Board still isn't right but closing in on proper numbers.

Main Deck
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Baleful Strix
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
1 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Sylvan Library

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Forest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Hyrdoblast
1 Disfigure
1 Marsh Casualties
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Krosan Grip
1 Garruk Relentless

[Manipulato]

Updated my list a bit to be less all-in-delver-hateful. This version is much stronger against Miracles, largely because the G1 percentage is much better. Added the 20th land, basic forest, to make land drops a bit more consistent and give the additional coverage against opponent land hate. Ran a bunch of test games against Miracles, Esper Mentor, and Lands yesterday. Positive results on all of them. Lands is a very close matchup (missing the StP from Bant) but winnable and that deck is trending down slightly. Board still isn't right but closing in on proper numbers.

Main Deck
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Baleful Strix
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
1 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Sylvan Library

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Forest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Hyrdoblast
1 Disfigure
1 Marsh Casualties
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Krosan Grip
1 Garruk Relentless


Hi,
how happy were you with the 2 Leovold in the MD? I'm also thinking about him in my BUG Midrange (Only 4 Shaman version). I'm not 100% sold on them just because they're mediocre in the lategame & just ok in the midgame I think. Tinkering about the 3rd or maybe even the 4th TNN instead (I play 2 Jitte MD).

I'm also not sure if I want to keep 3-4 Tarmogoyf, they're great to pressure the oponent (important vs any combo deck) and strong vs Eldrazi but more TNN's are just way better vs Miracles or DnT. How are your experiences with BUG Midrange?

[limbo]

Hi,
how happy were you with the 2 Leovold in the MD? I'm also thinking about him in my BUG Midrange (Only 4 Shaman version). I'm not 100% sold on them just because they're mediocre in the lategame & just ok in the midgame I think. Tinkering about the 3rd or maybe even the 4th TNN instead (I play 2 Jitte MD).

I'm also not sure if I want to keep 3-4 Tarmogoyf, they're great to pressure the oponent (important vs any combo deck) and strong vs Eldrazi but more TNN's are just way better vs Miracles or DnT. How are your experiences with BUG Midrange?

I am happy with Leo as a 2 of. It is very strong early, part of why I like 7 dorks. You are absolutely right, it loses a lot of value late or when you fall behind. His draw clause plays well against miracles, delver, and combo and his target clause is good against a variety of decks. He is pretty poor against Eldrazi as some versions only have dismembers and jittes that target but against versions with wasteland, removal spells, warping wail, and Endbringer he is fine. The ability to chump, trade, and carry a jitte means I normally keep 1 in post board regardless of what I saw from eldrazi game 1. He is excellent against most combo decks. If you worry about your combo matchups, consider adding (more of) him. Both abilities tend to be relevant and the body is big enough. He is at his worst against BR reanimator, but they still have looting, ColBru, and discard spells that are relevant points of interaction for him, as well as his (not so) secret mode of being a blue card for force. Turning off opposing glimpse, cantrips, on-turn card cycling, on-turn divining top flips often demands a removal spell from your combo opponent, which draws you more chances at disruption.

I think good, fast mana and the ability to play spells is critical to competative magic, and I think a lot of legacy players get too greedy with their mana bases. I play the dorks rather than other threats like delver or goyf, to allow me to play spells more aggressively and consistently (plus they are threats and buffs in a pinch). This preference may largely be a relic of my times playing 4c decks. I like that the dorks allow me to play 4 wastelands and use them aggressively, and play dazes, buying back a lot of the tempo that a more aggressive creature version of BUG might attempt to gain, while having a lower chance of being disrupted by my opponent.

General experience with the deck: Like deathblade decks, it has game against everything, but few overwhelmingly good matchups. There is a plethora of disruption available to you and your opponent rarely has a good idea of what to play around. Like deathblade, I think most matchups get better post board. My build from the previous page was nearly unbeatable for delver in G1 and even better G2, it was however weaker to Miracles. This version of the deck is a compromise. Delver G1 is pretty close now, but favored postboard. I like 7 dorks vs delver as it makes it much harder for them to cut us off of critical resources long enough for them to gain an insurmountable lead, so we have a better chance of getting to relevant midgame spells. Jaces and thoughtseizes in the main improve the game 1 matchups against midrange and control generally over the anti-delver version. I have not run this against the newer (true old school, all cantrip) Sneak and Show decks from GP Chiba onward. It is fine against the Omni-sneak hybrids as they are more dependent on 3 plus mana spells and have slightly less mainboard disruption. I expect that in G1 verses the GP Chiba version this deck would be a substantial dog, but thoughtseize, wasteland, 8 counters, clique, and Leo give it a punchers chance. I could see adding a third Leo, second clique, or a Notion Thief to the board if you expect a lot of S&S as they are excellent to put in on a show and tell and keep your blue count up. The blue blasts in the board are particularly nice here as they will go to REBs and it is also a natural foil to Sneak attack and blood moon. I have chosen to build the deck without a good answer to a resolved large monster (murderous cut, vapor snag, etc) and am willing to concede the T0 reveal chancellor, T1 dark rit, reanimate on the play games. Playing faerie macabre in the board would be a potential out to this but I think I would rather have the power of surgical. I like the maelstrom pulse as I found I wanted a good answer to resolved planeswalkers. That is what comes to mind at the moment. Happy to discuss further.

[Manipulato]

Thx for the detailed answer.

I'm a long time 4c Delver player and wanted to try something else because the current builds are not exactly what I want and last couple results were just ok (4:2 & 3:1:1).

I thought about the 4c Goodstuff version from Tomas Mar but I hate his 4c manabase especially since the red part is just for 2-3 bolts and some Forked Bolts in the SB. I think a straight BUG colored manabase gives me more consistancy and a more easy gameplay. If we cut red we can go deeper into black for 2 Marsh Casualties in the SB (Would add 1 Bayou) which is straight better than FB vs Elves & DnT.

This is the list I'm thinking about:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Thoughtseize

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Umezawas Jitte

3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
3 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Marsh Casualties
2 Dismember
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Thoughtseize

FoW Count 23

Currently it's focused to beat the creature based MU'S like Delver, Eldrazi, DnT & Elves. I think if I want to up the TNN count to 3 I also should add a 20th land because I dont run the hierarchs and the deck is more clunky than the 4c Delver version which also has 19 lands, right?
I'm just afraid that a early Leovold eats a removal and draws me 1 card for 3 mana which strix does for 2 :rolleyes:
I really have to test that dude...
How would you build this deck without the hierarchs (I don't own them and dont want to buy 50€ birds :laugh:).

[limbo]

Currently it's focused to beat the creature based MU'S like Delver, Eldrazi, DnT & Elves. I think if I want to up the TNN count to 3 I also should add a 20th land because I dont run the hierarchs and the deck is more clunky than the 4c Delver version which also has 19 lands, right?
I'm just afraid that a early Leovold eats a removal and draws me 1 card for 3 mana which strix does for 2 :rolleyes:
I really have to test that dude...
How would you build this deck without the hierarchs (I don't own them and dont want to buy 50€ birds :laugh:).

Without hierarchs, I would probably go a bit more controlling. I would go to 20 or 21 lands including 1 basic and down to 2-3 wastelands. I would cut the dazes for one of the lands, a pierce and a hymn. I would cut one strix for 1 dismember/murderous cut, cut one strix for a snapcaster, and cut one ponder for a clique. That gives you slightly better mana and more powerful spells. You will still be strong against delver game 1 and can build your board accordingly. The hierarch builds play more like the slower delver builds, this will play more midrange but I think if you cut the hierarches that is what you want to do.


Edit: Also this posted today: http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-reid-leovold-sultai-legacy/

Edit 2: My list above has a mistake, my current version is 4 USea and 2 Trop, not 3:3.

[Deckerator]

I like your list. I really wanna get into this deck. I am not sure about daze in a deck like this. How good is it for you?

What are the bad and the good matchups?

[limbo]

I like your list. I really wanna get into this deck. I am not sure about daze in a deck like this. How good is it for you?

What are the bad and the good matchups?

With 7 dorks, the daze and wasteland packages are solid. People play around a daze a fair bit but with the wastelands and the many must answer threats, daze do a good job in game 1.

[maharis]

I was happy to see Reid's videos the other day, as I had been experimenting with GSZ BUG based on the Bant decks over the summer (before Leovold was printed). I watched his series, read the comments and saw that someone suggested a Snapcaster/Unearth package, which I thought was better than the TNNs. TNN + Goyf is just too many dummies that don't do anything and TNN without equips is pretty lackluster.

I also thought Collective Brutality seemed to do a lot for Reid, and solved some of the problems I had with the build I played earlier; namely, faster decks that could pressure my mana even with the acceleration because of their less-expensive threats and removal (specifically Lightning Bolt). It's helpful to just think of CoBru as a charm with potential upside, or a terrible (but black) Lightning Bolt. Reid won a game with it and the drain can be relevant when games start to get away from you.

Last night I played this build to a 3-0 finish beating Dredge, Deathblade, and Reanimator. With the Thoughtseizes and Snaps, I didn't feel like having Daze and the mana advantage was as important, so I cut down to two Wastelands and played three basics so I could get my stuff online easily. Dryad Arbor in particular was really unimpressive for Reid. I decided to play a 5th dork in the form of a Hierarch, but it wasn't super relevant as there weren't a ton of times where I really thought, "What I want here is a turn 1 dork." I may cut it to get the third Wasteland in but haven't decided yet. Honestly, DRS is so insanely powerful that T1 thoughtseize, T2 GSZ for DRS makes your T3s pretty awesome without just powering out Leovold.

I never got to cast Painful Truths, and that could be a lot of things: a Life from the Loam, a Spell Pierce, a Sylvan Library, etc. But I think I'll keep it for now. Deck felt really smooth and I felt in control of all my matches.

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Trygon Predator
1 Baleful Strix
1 Noble Hierarch

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Collective Brutality
2 Ponder
1 Painful Truths
1 Dismember
1 Unearth

4 Delta
3 U Sea
2 Misty
2 Verdant
2 Wasteland
2 Trop
2 Bayou
3 basics

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Flusterstorm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Dismember
1 Disfigure
1 Dread of Night
1 Engineered Plague
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Chill
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle

This is the original build I played in August: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23429-Deck-Team-America-(Midrange-Control-Thread)&p=966594&viewfull=1#post966594

[Venomous72]

So after playing BUG Delver a bit and Shardless for quite a while I am thinking BUG Midrange is the right spot to be for an open meta. Shardless was just losing so hard to combo, and BUG Delver made me play Delver, which I think is the worst card in the list.

I put together this to play around with, and so far it feels pretty smooth:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Baleful Strix
3x True-Name Nemesis
1x Leovold, Emissary of Trest

2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
1x Spell Pierce
3x Hymn to Tourach
4x Abrupt Decay
1x Toxic Deluge

4x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Misty Rainforest
3x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
2x Bayou
4x Wasteland

Sideboard

3x Surgical Extraction
1x Spell Pierce
2x Thoughtseize
2x Pithing Needle
1x Null Rod
1x Golgari Charm
1x Toxic Deluge
2x Disfigure
1x Garruk Relentless
1x Vendilion Clique

[maharis]

I was going down the same path as you, Venomous, but found it's really hard to keep up with some of the draws out of Delver without 1-mana removal, especially on the draw. Complicating that was many of the Delver decks playing TNN now, which means you need to play clunky edict or -1/-1 effects into Daze or find a way to kill their DRS before they untap. They are better Daze decks and though cards like Leo and JTMS are better than Delver in a vacuum, they're just so much lower to the ground that they are a better Daze deck. Grixis variants having access to Bolt makes our DRSes unreliable

Since you're not playing any basic lands anyway, I find it hard to rationalize not going into a 4th color for Bolt, which is what I plan on doing for the GP. When Fatal Push is legal, I look forward to playing a true BUG control deck. I truly believe that card is a game-changer for the archetype, particularly due to its interaction with Snapcaster Mage.

[Venomous72]

I was going down the same path as you, Venomous, but found it's really hard to keep up with some of the draws out of Delver without 1-mana removal, especially on the draw. Complicating that was many of the Delver decks playing TNN now, which means you need to play clunky edict or -1/-1 effects into Daze or find a way to kill their DRS before they untap. They are better Daze decks and though cards like Leo and JTMS are better than Delver in a vacuum, they're just so much lower to the ground that they are a better Daze deck. Grixis variants having access to Bolt makes our DRSes unreliable

Since you're not playing any basic lands anyway, I find it hard to rationalize not going into a 4th color for Bolt, which is what I plan on doing for the GP. When Fatal Push is legal, I look forward to playing a true BUG control deck. I truly believe that card is a game-changer for the archetype, particularly due to its interaction with Snapcaster Mage.

Yeah this makes sense. There aren't many Delver decks at my shop (it is a lot of combo or fair grindy stuff) which is why I am considering this build. I did have this set up with a Volcanic Island and a Badlands but wasn't sure if it was worth the weird mana for the bolts. I guess it probably is for now.

But yeah once Push comes out I will be mainboarding probably 2-3 of those and remove some counters most likely. That card looks so great.

[maharis]

Yeah this makes sense. There aren't many Delver decks at my shop (it is a lot of combo or fair grindy stuff) which is why I am considering this build. I did have this set up with a Volcanic Island and a Badlands but wasn't sure if it was worth the weird mana for the bolts. I guess it probably is for now.

But yeah once Push comes out I will be mainboarding probably 2-3 of those and remove some counters most likely. That card looks so great.

Yikes, sorry that my post was so incomprehensible, probably should be paying closer attention to work.

Like you, I went several weeks without seeing a Delver deck and thought I was invincible, but then made a point to playtest against the archetype and got stomped repeatedly. I found that having the bolts was way better vs. delver and D&T, to the point of pushing delver to favorability and getting D&T closer to even (though still tough). I guess the way to look at it is that DRS is 30%+ of the format while Blood Moon is only about 10% and mostly sideboards, so better to play the odds even if a T1 moon will be the feel-baddiest.

Push will allow us to nuke early threats and should be a pretty good Snapcaster target. As long as we aren't under a ton of pressure, we should be able to get to cards like TNN and Jace to beat the cards that Push can't hit, and we of course also have access to bigger removal options like Liliana or Dismember if we need.

Plus, as games go long against fair decks Leovold gets better and better -- I drew three cards off of him last night before my D&T opponent stopped going after my manabase haha.

[Venomous72]

Yikes, sorry that my post was so incomprehensible, probably should be paying closer attention to work.

Like you, I went several weeks without seeing a Delver deck and thought I was invincible, but then made a point to playtest against the archetype and got stomped repeatedly. I found that having the bolts was way better vs. delver and D&T, to the point of pushing delver to favorability and getting D&T closer to even (though still tough). I guess the way to look at it is that DRS is 30%+ of the format while Blood Moon is only about 10% and mostly sideboards, so better to play the odds even if a T1 moon will be the feel-baddiest.

Push will allow us to nuke early threats and should be a pretty good Snapcaster target. As long as we aren't under a ton of pressure, we should be able to get to cards like TNN and Jace to beat the cards that Push can't hit, and we of course also have access to bigger removal options like Liliana or Dismember if we need.

Plus, as games go long against fair decks Leovold gets better and better -- I drew three cards off of him last night before my D&T opponent stopped going after my manabase haha.

I wish Fatal Push went to the face as well haha. I might brew with this 4 color build a bit. It really is hard to get this BUG/Grixis/Delver/Non-delver pile exactly where I want it.

[maharis]

I wish Fatal Push went to the face as well haha. I might brew with this 4 color build a bit. It really is hard to get this BUG/Grixis/Delver/Non-delver pile exactly where I want it.

Here is a list I played last night. 0-2 D&T, 2-0 Jund, 2-1 Elves. Not fully baked yet either, but I think it's just a matter of massaging the manabase and some of the 1-ofs.

The D&T matchup was closer than it looks. She had a cavern on human into mirran crusader in game 1 after I used bolts on Mom & Thalia. I doubt Mirran Crusader is more than a 1-of out of 75.

In game 2 I was about to turn it around when she had exactly SFM -> cast Sword of Fire and Ice -> land drop -> equip to germ token w/batterskull. I had all blue creatures in play of course, including Striges to hold of the Skull in the first place. In playtesting against D&T Monday I won a three-game series. K-command is really good in the matchup.

4 DRS
2 TNN
2 Leovold
2 Strix
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Snapcaster

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Bolt
4 Ponder
3 Decay
2 Spell Pierce
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Jace TMS
1 Painful Truths
1 Dismember

4 Tarn
4 Delta
3 Wasteland
3 Usea
3 Volc
2 Trop
1 Taiga
1 Badlands

2 Flusterstorm
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Far/Away (Marit Lage/reanimator stuff)
1 Dread of Night
1 Engineered Plague
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Krosan Grip

[Venomous72]

Here is a list I played last night. 0-2 D&T, 2-0 Jund, 2-1 Elves. Not fully baked yet either, but I think it's just a matter of massaging the manabase and some of the 1-ofs.

The D&T matchup was closer than it looks. She had a cavern on human into mirran crusader in game 1 after I used bolts on Mom & Thalia. I doubt Mirran Crusader is more than a 1-of out of 75.

In game 2 I was about to turn it around when she had exactly SFM -> cast Sword of Fire and Ice -> land drop -> equip to germ token w/batterskull. I had all blue creatures in play of course, including Striges to hold of the Skull in the first place. In playtesting against D&T Monday I won a three-game series. K-command is really good in the matchup.

4 DRS
2 TNN
2 Leovold
2 Strix
2 Gurmag Angler
1 Snapcaster

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Bolt
4 Ponder
3 Decay
2 Spell Pierce
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Jace TMS
1 Painful Truths
1 Dismember

4 Tarn
4 Delta
3 Wasteland
3 Usea
3 Volc
2 Trop
1 Taiga
1 Badlands

2 Flusterstorm
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Far/Away (Marit Lage/reanimator stuff)
1 Dread of Night
1 Engineered Plague
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Krosan Grip

....Nate?

Deck looks good! I might give it a shot this next Tuesday.

[Venomous72]

So once Fatal Push comes out what are we thinking in terms of numbers for this list?

I am thinking of a creature suite like this:

4x DRS
4x TNN
2x Gurmag Angler
1x Leovold
1x Vendilion Clique

with a spell base starting around here:

4x Brainstorm
4x Fatal Push
4x Force of Will
3x Abrupt Decay


But from there I'm not sure. Do we want Daze in a list like this? I would think not but not sure.

Jace, Spell Pierce, Lilly, Hymn, Thoughtseize, Counterspell, etc. Not sure what the right numbers are on these. I do think without Delver we want 4x Push to help us in the early game (since we won't be applying Delver pressure).

Thoughts?

[theMonster]

Went 3-0-1 at FNM last night with the following (suboptimal) first attempt at a BUG Control list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Tombstalker

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Sylvan Library

1 Disfigure
1 Dismember
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland

// sideboard //

2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Duress
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Darkblast
1 Dread of Night
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Unearth
1 Diabolic Edict

I beat DnT, drew against another DnT, then beat a UB Delver brew with basics and Sneak and Show. The list was fine, but I think there's lots of room for improvement and customization.

Overperformers:

- Tombstalker. It made combat miserable for Flickerwisp, Serra Avenger, and Delver of Secrets. It turned the tide in every game it hit the battlefield. Since the games tend to go longer, I think it's strictly better than Gurmag Angler in this list because you'll have the resources to cast it when you stabilize the board.

- True-Name Nemesis. No surprise there.

- Basic lands. I won through a Blood Moon in game 3 against Sneak and Show and was able to develop my mana against the Wasteland decks. Even if they destroyed a nonbasic or two later in the game or Ported lands in my upkeep, I was able to deploy threats on time.

- Toxic Deluge. Even with all the one-toughness dudes in the deck, I needed this card and good sequencing to win a couple games.

Underperformers:

- Jace, the Mind Sculptor. He literally did nothing. I didn't even pitch him to Force of Will. Granted I boarded him out against DnT, and this is a small sample size, but he didn't prove pivotal in any games. Plus Sylvan Library helped with card selection and card advantage. Perhaps I move one to the sideboard or shave one from the 75. Painful Truths is also a consideration.

- Creeping Tar Pit. This should probably be a fourth Underground Sea, but I don't own one. With all the mana denial running around, this card did a little more harm than good. It's not an Island against Choke, which is something, but I have basic Swamp and Forest to Decay that.

Cards I want to try:

- Liliana, the Last Hope. I think it might be better than O.G. Lili in this list because I have a lot more reactive cards that I want to keep in hand. New Lili kills small creatures, retrieves dead threats, and has an ultimate that many decks can't deal with.

- Yahenni's Expertise. It's almost certainly not as good as Deluge, but I want to at least test it. Sandbagging True-Name and casting it off Expertise seems powerful.

When Fatal Push comes out, this deck should improve. I can swap out at least the Disfigure and probably the Dismember, too. I think in the face of opposing Pushes, the threats here are well-positioned. I didn't miss Goyf at all, as Leovold was both disruptive and a reasonable clock against combo. Plus I have access to Clique, too.

Any and all feedback is appreciated.

Thanks!

[maharis]

Hierarch is seriously a playable card in bug midrange?

Gonna have to put a big yesarooni on this one.

[Venomous72]

Gonna have to put a big yesarooni on this one.

Obviously Reid knows what he is doing but having 8 dorks in this deck just seems weird. But I didn't just take down a GP with a brew so what do I know?

[Venomous72]

Hey guys here is what I will be trying this weekend. I would run 4x Seas but only have 3 at the moment.


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 True-Name Nemesis
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Baleful Strix
1 Tombstalker

2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Spell Pierce
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
3 Thoughtseize


4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
3 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Swamp

What are you guys planning on testing? Snap + Push seems like it's going to be pretty good.

[theMonster]

Hey guys here is what I will be trying this weekend. I would run 4x Seas but only have 3 at the moment.


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 True-Name Nemesis
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Baleful Strix
1 Tombstalker

2 Liliana of the Veil

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Spell Pierce
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
3 Thoughtseize


4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
3 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Swamp

What are you guys planning on testing? Snap + Push seems like it's going to be pretty good.

That's a lot of three-drops alongside Daze, and without the acceleration from Noble Hierarch, I wonder if Daze is gonna set you back too far too often. You don't have an early beater like Tarmogoyf to pressure the opponent either, so you're fighting on a more controlling axis as opposed to tempo-ing them out. The game is gonna go longer with your build, making Daze more of a liability later in the game.

I've been running a similar creature suite but with two Leovold over the fourth TNN and third Snapcaster - he's a big reason to be playing BUG right now. I'm curious as to how good Liliana is. I'm running a miser's Toxic Deluge in that slot, which has over-performed. And I tried Jace, too, but have been a bit underwhelmed by him, especially with the uptick in opposing TNNs and Leovolds. The mana base looks good, and if you had a fourth Sea, I'd play it over the second Bayou.

As far as Push, I'm gonna start with two in my control list and have a sideboard Edict or two for opposing TNNs, Emrakuls, reanimation targets, Marit Lages, etc.

[Venomous72]

That's a lot of three-drops alongside Daze, and without the acceleration from Noble Hierarch, I wonder if Daze is gonna set you back too far too often. You don't have an early beater like Tarmogoyf to pressure the opponent either, so you're fighting on a more controlling axis as opposed to tempo-ing them out. The game is gonna go longer with your build, making Daze more of a liability later in the game.

I've been running a similar creature suite but with two Leovold over the fourth TNN and third Snapcaster - he's a big reason to be playing BUG right now. I'm curious as to how good Liliana is. I'm running a miser's Toxic Deluge in that slot, which has over-performed. And I tried Jace, too, but have been a bit underwhelmed by him, especially with the uptick in opposing TNNs and Leovolds. The mana base looks good, and if you had a fourth Sea, I'd play it over the second Bayou.

As far as Push, I'm gonna start with two in my control list and have a sideboard Edict or two for opposing TNNs, Emrakuls, reanimation targets, Marit Lages, etc.

These are good points, and I completely brain farted with Leovold. I currently have one and will grab another when they drop in price a bit.

I was also unsure about Daze, and I suppose it isn't going to be near as effective without a Delver/Goyf beater and with only 3x Wastelands. Maybe a creature suite like this:

4x DRS
4x Goyf
3x TNN
3x Snap
1x Leovold

What flyers do you have in the main? A flyer (Strix or Clique) along with Lilly is how I beat Lands typically.

Do you think a list with Goyf would merit Daze? That could easily be replaced with a couple Counterspells and Spell Pierce.

EDIT: I am wondering if just Delver list is the best build for Push. Hmmm.

[Pdingo]

Hei People

I always really liked BUG Delver/BUG Controll and after i saw the new Fatal Push, i know Bug getting a nice new Push!
Specially BUGish controll decks getting better now:) It's probably a 3-4off in a BUG Delver or BUG Controll Shell.
The First Deck i always want to beat is Miracle because normally i play Miracle by myself.
With BUG you can do this! Delver/Daze/Hymn is always pretty strong. I tried something different.
If we take all DTB how much impact could Fatal Push have on them? Clearly against Miracle not a lot but against every other Deck that plays creatures.
But if Bug Decks get more played, Miracle will have a harder time.(Depends on the skill of course)

With this list you don't have the Pressure like Delver/Daze/hymn but you have a lot better Midrange Game. Specially when the meta change to a Fatal Push Meta.
Cards Like TS and Snap are pretty nice against Miracle and a lot other decks. Specially TS into Snap into TS. I play 4 Fatal Push to handle every other Creature Decks like other Delver decks.
Sometimes you can just handel a Though-Knot Seer. Probably Best Card in this Shell and still underrated is True-Name Nemesis. He's always good except Combo.
The 4 Ponder/4BS Package of course for more Constants. Life from the Loam is a really underrated Card in my opinion in a Bug Shell. Right Now in the Meta it's pretty good.
Fixing Mana, Wasteland lock against Delver, Eldrazi or lands, BS/Ponder/Jace Tricks. Lili is nice with loam and also the experimental Collective Brutality (Also a underrated Card).

Brutality is right now my 3-4 TS. If you have Useless Cards in Hand you can't use in a situation you can just discard them and use 2 Mods of Brutality. I know it's a 2 for 2 but if it's resolve it will probably have impact.
Alot i can just take a shaman and a Cantrip. Against infect it seems slow but if he don't counter it, you take a agent or a elf and a Pump Spell. If he play the Pump spell you can still Crap a other one:)
If you just 1 Mode it's still a Removal or a Discard:)

Against Combo G1 seems not that great. It really depends on the Combo Deck. Don't forget with TS and Snap you can slow them down. Or even win.
But like i said this Deck have a Main Deck to beat every other Deck. After Boarding you have a good Combo Match up.

Here is my List:

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Collective Brutality
4 Fatal Push
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Wasteland
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Thoughtseize
2 Life from the Loam
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou

SB: 1 True-Name Nemesis (Pretty Strong against Miracle and Creature Decks specially with jitte after boarding)
SB: 1 Pithing Needle (Basically against 70% of Legacy decks)
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction (B/R Reanimator, Storm or even as 1-2 off against Miracle)
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte (Creature Decks)
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker (I like him you can just him through Blood Moon and it can shut down Vial, LED or Sneak attack for example)
SB: 1 Sylvan Library (against Mirror or Miracle)
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse (Probably Fair decks)
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap (Storm or B/R Reanimator)
SB: 2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest (I really tried him main but i always like True-Name Nemesis more, but he's probably a very strong Sideboard card)
SB: 1 Painful Truths (against Controll Decks, I'm not sure about this Card)

If you have any Questions just ask:)

Greets Pascal