[Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

[theMonster]

4-0d FNM last night - after a previous 3-0-1, 3-1, and 2-1 - with this list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Tombstalker

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Sylvan Library

2 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Toxic Deluge

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

2 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Collective Brutality
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland

// sideboard //

1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Darkblast
1 Dread of Night
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Go for the Throat
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Painful Truths
1 Unearth

I beat Miracles (BBD list with three Mentors), Eldrazi, Death and Taxes (with sideboard Orzhov Pontiff that 3-for-1d me in game 2), and Abzan Nic Fit. Normally the Go for the Throat is a Duress, but there was only one combo deck in the room last night.

Highlights:

- Hymning my Eldrazi opponent in all three games and hitting gas each time
- kicking Marsh Casualties to 4-for-1 my DnT opponent
- Leovold --> Clique
- Snap --> Push
- having basics against Nic Fit

Lowlights:
- missing two (maybe three) Leovold triggers

On paper this looks like a bit of a pile, so you can customize it based on what you expect to play against. I like singleton spells with Snapcaster in my deck (and love Unearth, especially with Strix, too), but you can play whichever disruption suite you prefer. Basically I've begun to value Baleful Strix over Noble Hierarch; it's blue, stymies annoying threats, wears Jitte well, helps transition to the mid-game, and provides card advantage. The three basics have been amazing (even the Forest, which helped me beat Blood Moon in game 2 against Miracles). Tombstalker has overperformed, too. The only maindeck cards I'm unsure about are Creeping Tar Pit and Counterspell. Since my games tend to go longer, I love having access to both, especially with Miracles as prominent as it is. But you can certainly play a fourth Sea and something else in the Counterspell slot.

There are some apparent anti-synergies, notably Deluge + X/1.dec and Jitte + Null Rod. The former hardly ever comes up, as I only cast Deluge when I need to (and it generally wins the game). The latter happens more often, but since DnT has started playing two Council's Judgment in the sideboard, I like having both in my deck and rolling with whichever I draw first. (Null Rod won me game 3 against DnT last night, where a second Pithing Needle would not have.)

I've played this list a lot on Cockatrice, too, for whatever that's worth. It's performed better than I expected against BR Reanimator (I'm 4-1 against it so far) and Lands (3-0 plus a game 1 win - my opponent disconnected afterward). Small sample sizes, I know, but initially I thought this deck might roll over to combo. Overall, I've liked what it's been doing and am curious to know what y'all think. Feel free to provide feedback or ask any questions.

Thanks for reading!

[Manipulato]

Hey guys,
after playing the TrueName BUG Version from Reid (You can read a small report here http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31276-Noble-BUG/page5) I´m planning to switch to a more midrangey version without the noble package to get more Aggression and better sweepers in form of Toxic Deluge in it. I´m planning to play the following list:

16 Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

24 Spells
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Thoughtseize

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

20 Lands
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Pithing Needle
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Golgari Charm
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Thoughtseize

FoW Count -> 23

The Noble version was really strong vs DnT & Miracles but I really missed a real clock especially vs decks like burn (A big meta factor in my area), Elves or combo in general.
I had many games where I just stumbled around for a while countered something here and there, destroyed something here and there and just drew manadorks and then I lost after a while.
I think TNN is very important to have in the deck but Goyf is also needed.

Currently I´m not 100% sold on the 2 Leovold in the MD, he was crazy vs Enchantress but other than that he did just draw me a Card for 3 mana because he got bolted right away. How do you guys see him or how happy were you with him in the MD?

Atm I´m playing 6 cc3 spells and 2 cc4 spells with only 20 lands and just 2 Ponder, not sure if that is enough, I played some games here and there and it was ok but I would feel more comfortable with adding a 3rd copie of Ponder and maybe go down to just 6 cc3 spells. I´m not sure if I really Need those 2 Jaces in the MD, I boarded them out alot exept for the Miracles and Shardless MU. How did Jace perform for you guys? I´m afraid of getting to clunky...

I also really like the basic forest and swamp instead of the basic Island in reid´s list just because I never could cast a T2 AD with something like Island+Sea or Trop which was a bit annoying. The Island in reid´s list surely came from the 4 TNN + 3 Jace where blue is way more important than the swamp but in this version we have more black spells and less UU ones, so I think the change is obvious.

[femuca]

4-0d FNM last night - after a previous 3-0-1, 3-1, and 2-1 - with this list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Tombstalker

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Sylvan Library

2 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Toxic Deluge

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

2 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Collective Brutality
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland

// sideboard //

1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Darkblast
1 Dread of Night
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Go for the Throat
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Painful Truths
1 Unearth

I beat Miracles (BBD list with three Mentors), Eldrazi, Death and Taxes (with sideboard Orzhov Pontiff that 3-for-1d me in game 2), and Abzan Nic Fit. Normally the Go for the Throat is a Duress, but there was only one combo deck in the room last night.

Highlights:

- Hymning my Eldrazi opponent in all three games and hitting gas each time
- kicking Marsh Casualties to 4-for-1 my DnT opponent
- Leovold --> Clique
- Snap --> Push
- having basics against Nic Fit

Lowlights:
- missing two (maybe three) Leovold triggers

On paper this looks like a bit of a pile, so you can customize it based on what you expect to play against. I like singleton spells with Snapcaster in my deck (and love Unearth, especially with Strix, too), but you can play whichever disruption suite you prefer. Basically I've begun to value Baleful Strix over Noble Hierarch; it's blue, stymies annoying threats, wears Jitte well, helps transition to the mid-game, and provides card advantage. The three basics have been amazing (even the Forest, which helped me beat Blood Moon in game 2 against Miracles). Tombstalker has overperformed, too. The only maindeck cards I'm unsure about are Creeping Tar Pit and Counterspell. Since my games tend to go longer, I love having access to both, especially with Miracles as prominent as it is. But you can certainly play a fourth Sea and something else in the Counterspell slot.

There are some apparent anti-synergies, notably Deluge + X/1.dec and Jitte + Null Rod. The former hardly ever comes up, as I only cast Deluge when I need to (and it generally wins the game). The latter happens more often, but since DnT has started playing two Council's Judgment in the sideboard, I like having both in my deck and rolling with whichever I draw first. (Null Rod won me game 3 against DnT last night, where a second Pithing Needle would not have.)

I've played this list a lot on Cockatrice, too, for whatever that's worth. It's performed better than I expected against BR Reanimator (I'm 4-1 against it so far) and Lands (3-0 plus a game 1 win - my opponent disconnected afterward). Small sample sizes, I know, but initially I thought this deck might roll over to combo. Overall, I've liked what it's been doing and am curious to know what y'all think. Feel free to provide feedback or ask any questions.

Thanks for reading!

Very Nice list! Tested last night playing casual with friends: elves (1-3) and land disruption (3-1). Some notes:

- The game I won against elves was thanks to hymn on T2 and Snap for Hym on T3 (shaman on play). Maybe -1 Collective +1 Hymn MD.
- I like Counterspell for mid-late game vs Daze.
- Against land disruption, first game he got no colored lands and the one he got I waste it. I tried a tempo style gaming, FOWing his sinkholes on T2-3. And with TNN he has nothing to do.
- TNN vs elves, not much value.
- I forgot sinergies between Jace and Strix/Snap

About elves, and correct me if I'm wrong please, key-cards: removals on early (decay, push) or even counterspell, then recurring them with Snap. It's that ok? Another strategy?

I like the midrange style of the list.

Pdingo, about your list (next lines), how does lili performs on the deck?


4-0d FNM last night - after a previous 3-0-1, 3-1, and 2-1 - with this list:
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Collective Brutality
4 Fatal Push
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Wasteland
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Thoughtseize
2 Life from the Loam
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou





Thanks TheMonster and you all!

[theMonster]

Glad you like it, femuca!


- The game I won against elves was thanks to hymn on T2 and Snap for Hym on T3 (shaman on play). Maybe -1 Collective +1 Hymn MD.

I'm certainly open to that change. I tend to like the versatility of Brutality in game 1, as it can be removal or combo hate. But if you want to focus the disruption for a specific metagame, sure, a second Hymn is totally reasonable. :b::b: isn't always reliable on T2, which is when Hymn is at its best, but with six black sources in the deck (and nine fetches), you can find them fairly often.


About elves, and correct me if I'm wrong please, key-cards: removals on early (decay, push) or even counterspell, then recurring them with Snap. It's that ok? Another strategy?

Removal includes Jitte on an evasive creature and Deluge if you are behind on board (which you should be a lot). Leovold is great against Glimpse of Nature and Symbiote/Visionary recursion, and countermagic cleans up Natural Order (and Glimpse if you don't have Leo). Out of the sideboard you can bring in a two-mana sweeper in Marsh Casualties and a recursive removal spell in Darkblast. The other spot removal in the board is fine, too. I'd also bring in Invasive Surgery against them for Glimpse and Natural Order, Vendilion Clique to fly above the fray and nab a critical business spell in draw step, and sometimes Pithing Needle to stop Symbiote or Quirion Ranger.

Cheers!

[theMonster]

Hey guys,
after playing the TrueName BUG Version from Reid (You can read a small report here http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31276-Noble-BUG/page5) I´m planning to switch to a more midrangey version without the noble package to get more Aggression and better sweepers in form of Toxic Deluge in it. I´m planning to play the following list:

16 Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

24 Spells
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Thoughtseize

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

20 Lands
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
3 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Pithing Needle
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Golgari Charm
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Thoughtseize

FoW Count -> 23

The Noble version was really strong vs DnT & Miracles but I really missed a real clock especially vs decks like burn (A big meta factor in my area), Elves or combo in general.
I had many games where I just stumbled around for a while countered something here and there, destroyed something here and there and just drew manadorks and then I lost after a while.
I think TNN is very important to have in the deck but Goyf is also needed.

Currently I´m not 100% sold on the 2 Leovold in the MD, he was crazy vs Enchantress but other than that he did just draw me a Card for 3 mana because he got bolted right away. How do you guys see him or how happy were you with him in the MD?

Atm I´m playing 6 cc3 spells and 2 cc4 spells with only 20 lands and just 2 Ponder, not sure if that is enough, I played some games here and there and it was ok but I would feel more comfortable with adding a 3rd copie of Ponder and maybe go down to just 6 cc3 spells. I´m not sure if I really Need those 2 Jaces in the MD, I boarded them out alot exept for the Miracles and Shardless MU. How did Jace perform for you guys? I´m afraid of getting to clunky...

I also really like the basic forest and swamp instead of the basic Island in reid´s list just because I never could cast a T2 AD with something like Island+Sea or Trop which was a bit annoying. The Island in reid´s list surely came from the 4 TNN + 3 Jace where blue is way more important than the swamp but in this version we have more black spells and less UU ones, so I think the change is obvious.

I've been considering a beefier Goyf build, too. My meta is infested with DnT, so I've been going with a build heavier on TNN. For monthlies and bigger events, though, I think Goyf's clock, even in the face of Fatal Push, is merited.

Regarding your build, it looks pretty clean and streamlined, though 20 lands (3 of them Wasteland) and 2 Ponder feel light to me, especially if you're gonna be Dazing and trying to cast Jace. I might just cut Daze in favor of some other disruption and play 21 lands. I'm inclined to include something like Tombstalker over the fourth Goyf because it dodges Push and flies, but that's personal preference.

I'm on one Jace for the reasons you mentioned. Sometimes it wins the game, but it's bad a lot more often than it used to be. Leo, though, has been the real deal. And even in my list without Goyfs, Deluge has been insane.

Let us know how it goes!

[Manipulato]

I've been considering a beefier Goyf build, too. My meta is infested with DnT, so I've been going with a build heavier on TNN. For monthlies and bigger events, though, I think Goyf's clock, even in the face of Fatal Push, is merited.

Regarding your build, it looks pretty clean and streamlined, though 20 lands (3 of them Wasteland) and 2 Ponder feel light to me, especially if you're gonna be Dazing and trying to cast Jace. I might just cut Daze in favor of some other disruption and play 21 lands. I'm inclined to include something like Tombstalker over the fourth Goyf because it dodges Push and flies, but that's personal preference.

I'm on one Jace for the reasons you mentioned. Sometimes it wins the game, but it's bad a lot more often than it used to be. Leo, though, has been the real deal. And even in my list without Goyfs, Deluge has been insane.

Let us know how it goes!

How was the Collective Brutality for you? I'm really interested in playing 1-2 copies in the main because they are super flexible & have some blowout potential...

[theMonster]

How was the Collective Brutality for you? I'm really interested in playing 1-2 copies in the main because they are super flexible & have some blowout potential...

Like most modal spells, it's been fine but not OP or anything. The drain life has come in handy more often than I thought it would. I've shaved a turn off my clock by, say, killing a dude and draining. The dream, of course, is killing their Deathrite and taking Decay from their hand, but I've only gotten to do that once. I'd say I like it as a one-of, especially with Snapcaster in the deck to re-buy some of the value you give up by escalating. Personally, I like versatile cards in game 1, and Brutality fits that bill.

[akwing00]

Hi everyone,

So I'm still fairly new to legacy, and am just getting into BUG, having started after seeing Reid Duke's GP win. Anyway I have all the cards online for MTGO and so I've been wanting
to try out a midrange version of the deck without Noble H. I have a list I've based off a similar one online only difference was instead of Baleful Strix it was nimble mongoose in that slot, but yea
just hoping to get some feedback and learn as I go. I'm playing more stock lists as well online to just get used to how it plays as this is my first blue deck in legacy.


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 baleful strix
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 True-name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
2 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce

(18 Lands)
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Wasteland

[wcm8]

I've liked the following:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Gurmage Angler or Tombstalker
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
2 Thoughtsieze
1 Spell Pierce or Counterspell
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Umezawa's Jitte
20 lands*:
3-4 Underground Sea
2-3 Tropical Island
1-2 Bayou
3-4 Wasteland
8-10 UBG Fetches (mix depending on Basic lands)
0-1 Swamp
0-1 Forest (most likely 0)
0-1 Island (most likely 0)

Sideboard:
3 Duress
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction (or 1/1 Grafdigger's Cage)
2 Marsh Casualties
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Darkblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
2 flex slots -- possibly removal, currently 2 Diabolic Edict

*There is reasonable justification for running 1 or 2 Basics in the maindeck, particularly a basic Swamp as it can cast a lot of your other spells in tandem with a Dual land, in addition to safely casting a turn 1 DRS or Discard spell in the face of Wasteland. Not quite sure if this deck needs or wants to include a Forest and/or Island on top of that however, but in a Blood Moon-heavy metagame the Forest is definitely worth considering. 20 Lands seems about right for this deck though, as there is only 1 Jace and the 3-drops are the top of the curve.

Some lists are pretty close to this with minor modifications to the creature mix and spells. I think there is justification to running Tombstalker in the 15th creature slot thanks to its evasion -- which is important in winning ground stalls and holding off flying threats (and often trading favorably).

Due to the lack of Delver and Hymn, this deck is not quite as good at beating combo as Team America (BUG Delver), but it can hold its own elsewhere and is quite well-positioned against the majority of the current Legacy field. I'd also argue that it's favored in the BUG mirror, having played against both Shardless and BUG Delver.

[Manipulato]

Hey guys,
I will play this version on Sunday at a middle sized tournament and wanted to discuss a bit here and there.
I have cut the 3 Dazes from the deck because I think that the quite high number of cc3/cc4 spells works against Daze and now I´m in a position where I can fetch up some basics till T3 without blocking my own Dazes or anything. I´m still not sure if the 4/2 split between Tarmogoyf and TNN is right or if I should play a 3/3 split.
I played the 3/3 split for a couple of matches and it was ok but I want 2 Jaces in the MD and then the number of clunky spells goes up which I dont like so I decided to play the 4th goyf over the 3rd TNN to smooth out the curve a little bit.

I think a list with zero goyfs is not where I want to be just because the clock is a very important element in many MU´s, not just vs combo, especially in this version without 8 manadorks.

One thing I really want to discuss is a boarding plan especially vs Grixis Delver/Team America/4c Friedman Delver.
I´m a Long time delver player on my own but the boarding strategie with this deck is very different from the usual delver decks I play.

My biggest question here is if you guys would board out the FoW´s vs them and if you bring in the Toxic Deluges?

My current theory would look like this:

Grixis Delver (4)
+ 2 Toxic Deluge
+ 2 Flusterstorm

- 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
- 1 Thoughtseize
- 1 Force of Will

Team America (4)
+ 2 Diabolic Edict
+ 2 Spell Pierce

- 4 Force of Will

My fear is that if I board out all 4 FoW´s that I possibly lose to a really fast delver opening backed up with some counterspells so I want to be able to operate on low mana even if they waste me or kill a shaman. The FoW´s help me to survive the early game and later I win just because this deck is more powerful then theres.

I think the only exeption I would make here is vs the Team America Hymn version just because its more grindy than the Grixis MU and getting hymned + losing 2 cards from my own FoW feels bad and kinda wrong to me.
How do you guys see that? Do you board in the Toxic Deluges?



16 Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Baleful Strix

24 Spells
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

4 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

20 Lands
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Maelstrom Pulse

FoW Count -> 21

[theMonster]

Both of your lists look strong and focused. It seems you've both settled on 20 lands and at least three Wastelands, which makes me wonder if I'm playing one land too many. You're also both playing more Ponders than me - I'm only running two - so maybe that's the difference. I'll try a third Ponder over the 21st land. Plays better with Snapcaster in my deck, too.

@wcm8, sweet list. How have you liked the two Dazes? Is it more of a "gotcha" card, forcing them to play around it? Or is it integral to the strategy? I've been running stuff like Hymn and Brutality in those spots, so I'm curious if you find the 0-mana interaction at the expense of higher variance to be worth it. Seems reasonable, just curious how it's played out for you.

Tombstalker, for sure. It's been absolute gasoline, flying over opposing TNNs and making life miserable for Delver, Flickerwisp/Avenger, Clique, etc. It matches up poorly against Strix, of course, but so would Angler, and we have a glut of removal to deal with it.

I also think basics are a big draw to this deck. Being able to deploy your TNNs and Leovolds on time has proven valuable in my experience. The Island has been more relevant than the Forest (which I'm considering cutting), actually. T1 Swamp --> DRS, then T2 Island basically opens up your entire deck (except Jace, of course) while being Waste-proof.

@Manipulato, your list looks great, too. I'm basically unsure of how good 'Goyf is in this Fatal Push meta, which is what leads me away from him for now. But, of course, you're right about the clock in certain matchups, which makes me want to try some number in the 75. I just see how incredible TNN has been of late in this fair-skewed meta, and until people overload on hate (which they might), I want to play many copies.

I think your boarding plan works. You are playing seven spot-removal spells in the main (plus bringing in two more) and have Snapcaster, so I wouldn't worry as much about the fast Delver openings. Even Strix can bail you out. You can now kill 12 of their creatures for :b:, so I think you can stabilize reasonably well and can afford to board out Force. You even have Jace to bounce their Tombstalker and Edict to make them sac their TNN (if they run that instead).

I'm gonna do some work on my list before my monthly on Sunday and will probably end up somewhere between the two of you.

Let us know if you have any other revelations about the deck!

[Manipulato]

Both of your lists look strong and focused. It seems you've both settled on 20 lands and at least three Wastelands, which makes me wonder if I'm playing one land too many. You're also both playing more Ponders than me - I'm only running two - so maybe that's the difference. I'll try a third Ponder over the 21st land. Plays better with Snapcaster in my deck, too.

@wcm8, sweet list. How have you liked the two Dazes? Is it more of a "gotcha" card, forcing them to play around it? Or is it integral to the strategy? I've been running stuff like Hymn and Brutality in those spots, so I'm curious if you find the 0-mana interaction at the expense of higher variance to be worth it. Seems reasonable, just curious how it's played out for you.

Tombstalker, for sure. It's been absolute gasoline, flying over opposing TNNs and making life miserable for Delver, Flickerwisp/Avenger, Clique, etc. It matches up poorly against Strix, of course, but so would Angler, and we have a glut of removal to deal with it.

I also think basics are a big draw to this deck. Being able to deploy your TNNs and Leovolds on time has proven valuable in my experience. The Island has been more relevant than the Forest (which I'm considering cutting), actually. T1 Swamp --> DRS, then T2 Island basically opens up your entire deck (except Jace, of course) while being Waste-proof.

@Manipulato, your list looks great, too. I'm basically unsure of how good 'Goyf is in this Fatal Push meta, which is what leads me away from him for now. But, of course, you're right about the clock in certain matchups, which makes me want to try some number in the 75. I just see how incredible TNN has been of late in this fair-skewed meta, and until people overload on hate (which they might), I want to play many copies.

I think your boarding plan works. You are playing seven spot-removal spells in the main (plus bringing in two more) and have Snapcaster, so I wouldn't worry as much about the fast Delver openings. Even Strix can bail you out. You can now kill 12 of their creatures for :b:, so I think you can stabilize reasonably well and can afford to board out Force. You even have Jace to bounce their Tombstalker and Edict to make them sac their TNN (if they run that instead).

I'm gonna do some work on my list before my monthly on Sunday and will probably end up somewhere between the two of you.

Let us know if you have any other revelations about the deck!

Well it's possible that I end up with a 3/3 split before the tournament just because I'm also in love with TNN, especially because he's great vs DnT & Miracles but the Fatal Push argument is irrelevant in my opinion because the decks who can support Fatal Push already have access to AD anyways. And even decks like Grixis Delver for example dont play FP just because they're prioritize things like Dismember over it. If you look at the tier 1 and the more played tier 2 decks you will see that every deck outside of Grixis Delver already had answers for Goyf, so it's not that those decks now can finally handle him.

20 lands is fine for me especially with 3-4 Ponder but there are also arguements for the 21 lands version, I hate flooding out and it's just my style maybe because I'm a delver player at heart.

I will definitely report you guys how it went, will keep you guys updated. It's quite challenging & interesting when decks or archetypes are still in progress & not set in stone.

[LarsLeif]

Hey guys,
I will play this version on Sunday at a middle sized tournament and wanted to discuss a bit here and there.
I have cut the 3 Dazes from the deck because I think that the quite high number of cc3/cc4 spells works against Daze and now I´m in a position where I can fetch up some basics till T3 without blocking my own Dazes or anything. I´m still not sure if the 4/2 split between Tarmogoyf and TNN is right or if I should play a 3/3 split.
I played the 3/3 split for a couple of matches and it was ok but I want 2 Jaces in the MD and then the number of clunky spells goes up which I dont like so I decided to play the 4th goyf over the 3rd TNN to smooth out the curve a little bit.

I think a list with zero goyfs is not where I want to be just because the clock is a very important element in many MU´s, not just vs combo, especially in this version without 8 manadorks.

One thing I really want to discuss is a boarding plan especially vs Grixis Delver/Team America/4c Friedman Delver.
I´m a Long time delver player on my own but the boarding strategie with this deck is very different from the usual delver decks I play.

My biggest question here is if you guys would board out the FoW´s vs them and if you bring in the Toxic Deluges?

My current theory would look like this:

Grixis Delver (4)
+ 2 Toxic Deluge
+ 2 Flusterstorm

- 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
- 1 Thoughtseize
- 1 Force of Will

Team America (4)
+ 2 Diabolic Edict
+ 2 Spell Pierce

- 4 Force of Will

My fear is that if I board out all 4 FoW´s that I possibly lose to a really fast delver opening backed up with some counterspells so I want to be able to operate on low mana even if they waste me or kill a shaman. The FoW´s help me to survive the early game and later I win just because this deck is more powerful then theres.

I think the only exeption I would make here is vs the Team America Hymn version just because its more grindy than the Grixis MU and getting hymned + losing 2 cards from my own FoW feels bad and kinda wrong to me.
How do you guys see that? Do you board in the Toxic Deluges?



16 Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Baleful Strix

24 Spells
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library

4 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

20 Lands
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Maelstrom Pulse

FoW Count -> 21

If you want goyfs becasue of the fast clock in some matchups I think that's fine, but I'm not sure that you need it all that often to run the full 4. A 3/3 between Strix and Goyf will shore up some percentages against BUG Delver if that is a concern for you to face (not sure that it is :p ). I would cut all forces against that deck btw, they are very set up to roll over opponents that are trying to play too reactive. Better to just topdeck strixes and live cards they struggle to beat.

[Manipulato]

If you want goyfs becasue of the fast clock in some matchups I think that's fine, but I'm not sure that you need it all that often to run the full 4. A 3/3 between Strix and Goyf will shore up some percentages against BUG Delver if that is a concern for you to face (not sure that it is :p ). I would cut all forces against that deck btw, they are very set up to roll over opponents that are trying to play too reactive. Better to just topdeck strixes and live cards they struggle to beat.

It´s not that I think the Delver MU in general is bad, I think it´s quite good but I respect the fast aggro openings they can have and want a really solid boarding plan vs them...I would cut all the 4 FoW vs Team America for sure...

4 copies of Goyf are not set in stone, I played a 3/3 split between Goyf and TNN before and it was quite good...
Atm I dont have many free slots for a 3rd Strix and I dont think that I really need a 3rd one tbh just because they only really good vs Delver and Eldrazi which are already solid MU´s and Eldrazi is not that popular anymore even if it grows the Goyf...

But thx for the input.

[LarsLeif]

It´s not that I think the Delver MU in general is bad, I think it´s quite good but I respect the fast aggro openings they can have and want a really solid boarding plan vs them...I would cut all the 4 FoW vs Team America for sure...

4 copies of Goyf are not set in stone, I played a 3/3 split between Goyf and TNN before and it was quite good...
Atm I dont have many free slots for a 3rd Strix and I dont think that I really need a 3rd one tbh just because they only really good vs Delver and Eldrazi which are already solid MU´s and Eldrazi is not that popular anymore even if it grows the Goyf...

But thx for the input.

You are welcome! I have just begun playtesting this archetype (Delverless delver) so I will likely share my findings if they are relevant. I play 4c right now.

[TheExtraMile]

I've been playing a zero-goyf version of BUG control and it's been performing solidly against the field - played a weekly last night and went 4-0, 8-2 in games. 2-0 ANT, 2-0 grixis delver, 2-1 DnT, 2-1 Shardless.

Cutting goyfs entirely has made the deck extremely resilient against removal, especially abrupt decay. With TNN and snapcasters providing resiliency, this version has enough early interaction and lategame punch to compete with pretty much the whole field. There isn't a great miracles pilot in my area however, so I don't have a lot of experience in that matchup.

4 deathrite
3 strix
2 snapcaster mage
2 true-name
2 leovold
1 vendilion clique

4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 abrupt decay
2 fatal push
2 thoughtseize
2 hymn to tourach
2 spell pierce
2 ponder
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 counterspell

9 fetches
3 underground sea
2 tropical island
2 bayou
2 wasteland
1 forest
1 swamp
1 creeping tar pit

3 surgical extraction
2 marsh casualties
2 thoughtseize
2 flusterstorm
1 null rod
1 pithing needle
1 sylvan library
1 liliana, the last hope
1 diabolic edict
1 garruk relentless

I'll be bringing this to the SCG team constructed tournament in Baltimore - looking forward to testing it against a wider field! Would love to hear any suggestions or comments.

[LarsLeif]

I've been playing a zero-goyf version of BUG control and it's been performing solidly against the field - played a weekly last night and went 4-0, 8-2 in games. 2-0 ANT, 2-0 grixis delver, 2-1 DnT, 2-1 Shardless.

Cutting goyfs entirely has made the deck extremely resilient against removal, especially abrupt decay. With TNN and snapcasters providing resiliency, this version has enough early interaction and lategame punch to compete with pretty much the whole field. There isn't a great miracles pilot in my area however, so I don't have a lot of experience in that matchup.

4 deathrite
3 strix
2 snapcaster mage
2 true-name
2 leovold
1 vendilion clique

4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 abrupt decay
2 fatal push
2 thoughtseize
2 hymn to tourach
2 spell pierce
2 ponder
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 counterspell

9 fetches
3 underground sea
2 tropical island
2 bayou
2 wasteland
1 forest
1 swamp
1 creeping tar pit

3 surgical extraction
2 marsh casualties
2 thoughtseize
2 flusterstorm
1 null rod
1 pithing needle
1 sylvan library
1 liliana, the last hope
1 diabolic edict
1 garruk relentless

I'll be bringing this to the SCG team constructed tournament in Baltimore - looking forward to testing it against a wider field! Would love to hear any suggestions or comments.

Nice deck, pretty similar to what I'm playing. I also play zero goyf.

[hofzge]

I've been playing a zero-goyf version of BUG control and it's been performing solidly against the field - played a weekly last night and went 4-0, 8-2 in games. 2-0 ANT, 2-0 grixis delver, 2-1 DnT, 2-1 Shardless.

Cutting goyfs entirely has made the deck extremely resilient against removal, especially abrupt decay. With TNN and snapcasters providing resiliency, this version has enough early interaction and lategame punch to compete with pretty much the whole field. There isn't a great miracles pilot in my area however, so I don't have a lot of experience in that matchup.

4 deathrite
3 strix
2 snapcaster mage
2 true-name
2 leovold
1 vendilion clique

4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 abrupt decay
2 fatal push
2 thoughtseize
2 hymn to tourach
2 spell pierce
2 ponder
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 counterspell

9 fetches
3 underground sea
2 tropical island
2 bayou
2 wasteland
1 forest
1 swamp
1 creeping tar pit

3 surgical extraction
2 marsh casualties
2 thoughtseize
2 flusterstorm
1 null rod
1 pithing needle
1 sylvan library
1 liliana, the last hope
1 diabolic edict
1 garruk relentless


I like many of your choices including no Goyf and the Snapcasters, enough lands, not too many 3 drops. Great deck!
I will play something similar next week:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Baleful Strix
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3x True-Name Nemesis

4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
2x Fatal Push
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Force of Will
3x Thoughtseize
1x Counterspell
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sylvan Library
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
1x Forest
1x Swamp
2x Misty Rainforest
3x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wasteland

Sideboard
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Marsh Casualties
1x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Duress
1x Flusterstorm
1x Invasive Surgery
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Pithing Needle
1x Null Rod
1x Garruk Relentless

Initially I also had a singleton Tombstalker and I am still unsure if it would fit in.

[btm10]

I've only gotten about 10 matches in so far, but here's my list too:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Fatal Push
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library
1 Counterspell
1 Ponder

4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard
3 Duress
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Golgari Charm
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Fatal Push/Dismember
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Pithing Needle
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Painful Truths
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Dread of Night

I may end up swapping the Forest for an Island, though having access to both BG basics makes Decay a more reliable out to Blood Moon. The main change I'm likely to make is tweaking the creature base away from 3 drops, probably by adding Goyfs to help out against Eldrazi. I have been happy with this slightly 'bigger' configuration overall, especially against Miracles and other BUG decks.

[theMonster]

I like all the lists people have posted - looks like this archetype is doing fairly well. I 3-0d FNM last night, then split the fourth round. Here's what I registered:

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Tombstalker

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Sylvan Library

2 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Wasteland

// sideboard //

1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Darkblast
1 Dread of Night
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Go for the Throat
1 Painful Truths

I beat Jund, Tin Fins, and Grixis Delver. I also tested game 1s against Sneak 'n' Show and won a little over half of them, which was promising.

I wanted to try Spell Snare last night, and it felt pretty good against everything except Sneak 'n' Show (obviously). I only got to cast it on an opposing Hymn last night, but, in theory, it matched up well against two of the decks I faced. With Snapcaster, I assume Snare can be very effective, but I don't have enough info to say that definitively.

My two main questions about this list are the Counterspell and my sideboard. Counterspell, though inherently powerful, feels like a late-game card, and this deck tends to handle the later stages of the game well already. I'm almost never casting Counterspell on T2, which is when I'd need it against combo. It's terrific in topdeck wars and against haymakers like Terminus/Toxic Deluge, but I feel like I'm pitching it to Force more than I'm casting it. How have people felt about Counterspell in their lists, and if you don't like it, what would you play in its place? Spell Pierce? Collective Brutality? Something else? And are ten pieces of disruption too many?

My sideboard could use some tweaking, too. I happened to register that 15 based on what was in the room last night (a couple Jund, a couple DnT, several combo decks, three Delver variants, one Miracles, one Eldrazi), but in a more open meta I should probably make my list more well-rounded. I'm considering these changes:

-1 Darkblast, -1 Go for the Throat // +1 Duress, +1 Toxic Deluge

I think Toxic Deluge is objectively more powerful than Darkblast and can deal better with DnT's threat suite (like Mirran Crusader) and opposing TNNs. Having five dedicated anti-combo cards (excluding Surgical) would feel nice, too, especially since some of my disruption (read: Spell Snare) is bad in certain matchups (read: Sneak 'n' Show). With that configuration, though, I don't have an answer to things like a resolved Gurmag Angler except for Diabolic Edict (which may be enough - I dunno). Maybe with ten pieces of disruption maindeck I can afford to leave out Duress, though.

Playing a monthly tomorrow and would love people's thoughts on Counterspell, sideboarding, and the deck in general before then.

Thanks, y'all!

EDIT: Also, with three :b::b: spells in the maindeck plus the sideboard Marsh Casualties, should I swap out a Trop for a second Bayou?

[Manipulato]

Hey guys,
today I played a tournament in Austria and went Top 8 with the following list:

Round 1: Eldrazi Won 2:0
Both games were won by big 5/6 Tarmogoyfs, TNN and Jitte. Easy going.

Round 2: Miracles Won 2:0
In game 1 he took a Mulligan to 6 and I was OTP and discarded him away his only ponder in Hand, after that he was screwed on 2 lands and I did my Thing and resolved Jace -> GG.

In game 2 I resolved Null Rod with him having a Top in play and tried to explosive away the Rod but no no buddy this doenst work :wink: Later I countered his Wear//Tear, then I cliqued away his Terminus in response to the miracle trigger on the stack so that my TNN could finish the dirty work for me. Jace was also on the battlefield.

Round 3: Noble BUG Draw 1:1
I had a good opening with TS on his 1st TNN and FP for his Shaman but then he was able to land another TNN with a Noble on board and raced my own TNN, Goyf got pushed earlier and my Jitte came to late to the party. He also resolved Leovold 2 or 3 turns before I died which shut down my Brainstorm.

In game 2 I discarded him 2 TNN´s and was able to Jace bounce him a Leovold to get my cantrips going, later in the game I won a super close damagerace with him having a Leovold + Jitte and me a TNN + Shaman, super close. One turn more and I would have been dead...

Both games went long and were grindy so we had not much time left. In game 3 I discarded him a Jace without anything on the board and he immediatly drew another one and resolved him, my Leovold was ready to shut down his Jace but then we realized that we´re in extra turns and no one can win...1:1 draw.

Round 4: Lands Won 2:1
In game 1 I was OTP and discarded him a Mox Diamond because he had nothing else really going, then I decayed another Mox and wasted a grove or Taiga. On T3 I landed a Leovold and was able to equip Jitte right on T4 which sealed the deal for me. He landed a Tabernacle on T3 but I had enough lands to pay the cost.

Game 2 was boring, I kept a 2 lander, fetched up Basics and never ever drew another land while he ported one of my lands, he won on turn 15 or whatever via marit large.
In game 3 I drew a Surgical extraction on T1 off my Brainstorm and extracted him all his Loams. Then I FoW`ed a Gamble and landed Tarmogoyf which reduced his life total until he drew a Maze of Ith, I was able to Waste his 1st Maze and in Response he copied the Maze with stage but luckily for me I drew a Needle off the top and shut down this shit.

Round 5: Sneak & Show Won 2:1
I mulled to 6 in game 1 because I knew against what I was up against and searched for a FoW or TS Hand. I kept a no lander on 6 OTD with FoW and TS hoping to draw 1 land in my next 2 Cards with the free scrying but sadly I never ever drew one and he was able to Force back and resolved his Show and Tell -> GG

I kept this super risky hand because my G1 is bad anyways and a mull to 5 would have not been much better anyways.
In game 2+3 I was able to discard and counter him all relevant spells via Thoughtseize, FoW and Flusterstorm and Goyf + Shaman clocked him nicely. A sweet Situation in game 3 was where my oponent Brainstormed when I had Leovold in play so that instead of drawing 3 cards he had to put back 2 cards from his hand :tongue: He will never do that again!

Round 6: ID
I would have been Top 8 no matter if I lose or draw, I prefered to spy out the other Top 8 competitors.

Top 8 Noble BUG Lost 0:2
I was OTP and made land into shaman, he did the same thing. On T2 I Thoughtseized him and saw TNN, TNN, Leo, Leo, Land -> Great :rolleyes: I decided to take away one TNN and then I pushed away his Shaman and attacked him with my own. He did his landdrop and said go. On my turn I tried to land my own Leovold but he topdecked a FoW and countered him, then he drew his 3rd land and landed his Leovold. I never drew a removal for the Leo and my Goyfs got destroyed and stonewalled by a Strix and AD -> GG.

In game 2 I made land go, he made Land into Shaman, on my T2 I landed a Sylvan Library but he immediatly answered it with a T2 Leovold which shut down my Library. Later I drew a FP but was not able to activate revolt to destroy the Leo which sucked hard. At the end the game got super close and he won the damage race on 2 or 3 life with me having double TNN on board but his early Leovold did to much damage to my lifepoints earlier and he also had Shaman + TNN + Strix active on board.
Earlier I pondered into his Leo just to look at the top 3 cards of my library and saw a TNN which I would have been able to cast if I would be allowed to draw a card, those missing 3 damage was exactly where I lost the game, Leovold is just nuts...

16 Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Baleful Strix

24 Spells
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

3 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawas Jitte

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sylvan Library

20 Lands
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Maelstrom Pulse

FoW Count 22

The last minute changes with -1 Pithing Needle +1 Null Rod -1 Spell Pierce +1 Flusterstorm in the SB were important & won me both a match which otherwise would have been very difficult. Shut down explosives & was able to counter a Show and Tell with him having a FoW in hand.
I liked Tarmogoyf in the Eldrazi & Sneak Show MU and he did his job vs the other decks even if he got decayed or pushed in the BUG mirrors, but well he obviously sucks in those MU´s.

The BUG mirrors were the only matches which I lost or drew and which felt slightly negative...Thoughtseize always discarded TNN's which was great but at the end of the day I got crushed by another one and/or Leovold which is bonkers vs us.
One time I had push in hand and couldnt kill a Leovold because I couldnt activate revolt, maybe I bring in the 4th Decay instead of the 3rd push, we will see. Leovold also owned my Library which felt awful.

I think some Dazes would have been nice here and there, I will work on the list to find the optimal configuration.

I'm also not sure if I boarded correctly in the BUG matches. I boarded out 4 FoW 2 Baleful Strix (Because of no Goyfs on the other side of the table) 1 Goyf (AD/FP) and boarded in 2 Edicts 2 Toxic Deluge 1 Jace 1 Pulse 1 Vendilion Clique.
My top 8 oponent left in the FoW's and said he finds it wrong to take them out just because he wants to hold tnn & Leovold off the board. My strategie was to kill them with Edicts & Deluges and the card disadvantage of the FoW's brought me to take them out but maybe I'm wrong here because the FoW helped him in those matches. Maybe the TNN BUG mirror should not be treaded like the Shardless MU where I think it´s correct to take out all Forces just because the whole game is around landing a TNN or Leovold and not Tarmogoyf which can be killed by anything...

I probably should have boarded like this: +2 Edict +2 Deluge +1 Jace - 2 Strix -2 Tarmogoyf -1 FoW or another Goyf

How do you guys see that?

[btm10]

Our FNM didn't fire this week, but that did let the 7 people who showed up get some testing in. I tried out about 4 different lists for about 2 matches each and can at least offer a few general thoughts:

1. Shardless still seems to have small but real edge in the BUG pseudo-mirror. You can typically overcome this edge with tight play, but their superior card velocity means that you can often find yourself forced a controlling role against a deck that has a very powerful late game.

2. Reid Duke-style Noble BUG lists are prone to flooding, and should probably be running both more cards to leverage Noble Hierarch's body and consider lowering their total number of mana sources. I did some testimg with Nissa, Voice of Zendikar yesterday and was pretty impressed. I was also impressed with MD Counterspell as a 1-of with Leovold. Leo can have a Standstill-like effect on a game, and definitely encourages you to run more interaction. A 2-drop creature wouldn't hurt.

3. The optimal creature/planeswalker numbers for the traditional BUG control deck sort of elude me right now. I think the list I posted earlier wants a Goyf or two probably over a TNN amd a Jace?), or something else to do for 2 mana. It also probably wants Ponder over Sylvan Library so it has more cards to Snap back. The sideboard definitely needs a Pierce or Flusterstorm.

[wcm8]

Extensive testing and tweaking has me with the following list:

20 Lands (4 Sea, 2 Bayou, 1 Tropical, 9 Fetch, 4 Waste)
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library

Sideboard:
2 Jace, TMS
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Invasive Surgery
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Toxic Deluge

Notes on card choices:
20 Lands in tandem with DRS seems more than enough to reliably cast the deck's spells on time. While the number of 3-drops might seem like it'd make the deck want more lands, this hasn't really been the case for me, especially since you can use the Cantrips/Library to help search for additional lands as needed. Generally speaking, this deck only wants to have 1 of each Dual Land out in an end-game state, so any more beyond that isn't needed.

I opted to not play any Basics. Blood Moons decks are just something that you're going to be soft too, and running a couple Basics actually tends to be worse in more matchups than just running all dual lands. Your best hope against those sort of strategies is to keep mana open to cast Abrupt Decay or Golgari Charm.

This list started with a stock Team America list, and the variations started after dropping Delver of Secrets. What I found is that BUG's lack of Lightning Bolt makes it much worse at playing that sort of hyper-aggressive tempo-game in comparison to the Delver decks running the Red splash. However, the trade off in speed is a much, much better mid and late-game while still retaining the necessary elements to function as a powerful aggro-control deck. You lose maybe a little bit of percentage points against fast combo decks with this configuration in comparison to more typical TA lists, but make up for it by having superior bombs that are much, MUCH better against the rest of the field. And anyways, you still have a great sideboard to compensate. The other bonus is not having to play as many Sorceries or Instants, and can instead run more permanents.

I still feel that the mixture of 4 Daze, 4 FoW and 4 Hymn is the strongest and most versatile mixture of disruption available to BUG. The free counterspells enable the deck to play a 'tap-out' mode of sequencing, making it so that the most moves are completed on each turn. I don't think BUG is the type of deck to best utilize situational counterspells in its main 60, particularly because it has access to Hymn to Tourach. Hymn is just savage against basically every archetype aside from a few graveyard-centric decks, and it plays really well with the other cards. I would not exchange it for 1-for-1 discard spells, because besides the card advantage aspect, it being able to hit Lands in the opponent's hand makes it so that your Wastelands and Dazes are much better.

The creature mix previously had the 4th Tarmogoyf instead of the 3rd TNN, but what I've found is that TNN is just so good at beating UWx control and midrange decks. I think Tarmogoyf is still important, as it's still a fantastic under-costed Wall/Finisher and is an important element in beating decks like Eldrazi. It also survives -1/-1 spells (which your opponent will need to bring in if they want to not die to TNN) and isn't countered by Pyroblast. 4 DRS is obvious; 2 Leovold is because the card is BUSTED but as a Legend you don't really want to run more (though perhaps a 3rd copy is warranted..) 1 Tombstalker because the Delve cost is too excessive to run more, but being a flyer and 8-CMC has a ton of advantages against the format. 1 Vendilion Clique is there, taking the spot previously occupied by the 4th copy of Ponder. Since we don't need to run a critical mass of spells for Delver, cutting a few cantrips in favor of Clique and Sylvan Library (taking the slot of the 3rd Ponder) is fine as a method of increasing the threat density while still maintaining a requisite Blue count for Force of Will and sorceries for Goyf and DRS.

4 Fatal Push -- the card just makes TA so much stronger against any deck leaning on creatures. I could see the argument to cutting the 4th copy for the 4th Decay in certain metagames, but being able to kill a T1 DRS is just so important. It's also made it so that previously difficult matchups like Elves or DnT are much easier to handle even before sideboarding.

I run 2 Jace in the sideboard, because the main 60 doesn't really want to run a 4-drop except in certain matchups -- but when he's good, he's great. The sideboard is designed to be versatile against the major archetypes of the format, though some slots could be swapped for more targeted options as needed. The reason I want Golgari Charm instead of Marsh Casualties despite the presence of TNN is because its Instant-speed nature is important against certain decks, it can hit Enchantments (very useful in a fair number of matchups), and generally you can sequence your plays to avoid killing your own creatures. 2 copies of Invasive Surgery as it hits some of the most problematic cards (e.g. Terminus, Ancestral Vision, Show and Tell, Reanimate, Life from the Loam, etc.) with the potential upside of exiling the remaining copies. 1/1 split of Flusterstorm and Spell Pierce because sometimes you want to hit artifacts/enchantments/etc. There's an argument for just running 2 copies of Pierce, but Flusterstorm is still quite nice to have against combo.

I'm hoping to give this list a test run in a major tournament, but in the meantime it's been performing very well at smaller locals and in online testing.

[theMonster]

Thanks for a well-presented list, wcm8. Perhaps I'm wrong and this is too corner-case, but I feel like BR Reanimator is enough of a combo concern to merit some number of Thoughtseize in the 75. Unmask/Collective Brutality just strip our permission from hand, and even if Hymn would be good in certain situations against them, there's a great chance we're staring down at Griselbrand before we can cast it. Perhaps Force + Daze makes it so that we have a critical mass of free countermagic and don't get "got" that often, though. I'll have to jam some games with your configuration and see how it feels.

And do you think there's merit to playing a Snapcaster in the 75? Your list seems like it wants to beat down more, but I look at those oh-so-efficient Fatal Pushes and want to cast a million of 'em. Snap + Hymn is savage, too.

Thanks!

[btm10]

I definitely agree with a lot of your thoughts, wcm8. One of the biggest downsides of the Noble BUG lists is struggling to cast BB spells like Hymn if they don't have Deathrite since it's Tropical Island deck rather than an Underground Sea deck. Have you felt flooded on dead or suboptimal cards in your more polarized matchups without Liliana maindeck? One thing I've struggled with is that while Fatal Push is amazing in creature matchups, I've been hesitant to go above 1-2 maindeck because it's dead against combo and middling at best against Miracles. Has your experience been similar, or is that just something you accept and change your Brainstorm usage accordingly?

[wcm8]

Running 4 Fatal Push and cutting Delvers obviously costs you some points against fast combo and Miracles. But both of those archetypes seem to be overall favorable matchups regardless, especially after sideboarding. The problem that sometimes happens against an unknown opponent is drawing the "wrong half" of your deck, e.g. TNNs and removal against combo, or Force of Will against a creature deck running Cavern of Souls. As you noted, Brainstorm is a potential method of mitigating these circumstances, but it's just a reality of playing an Aggro-Control deck that you have to accept as part of playing the archetype. Aside from combo decks that essentially ignore what their opponent is doing except in how it disrupts their end goal, this is just how it goes for most Legacy decks.

I do like Liliana, but finding room for her in the main 60 is kinda tough. I just want to maximize the most efficient elements that I think are essential against an unknown opponent, and to be honest the planeswalkers aren't neccesary in game 1 if things are working properly.

I outlined previously why I'm not a fan of Thoughtseize, mainly it's because I think Hymn is better, particularly with how it works alongside tapping out on turn 2 with Daze/FoW backup, and how even when you "wiff" by hitting lands, it often means your Wastelands and Daze are powered-up. Often, resolving two Hymns is enough to win the game, and this is regardless of what the opponent is playing. It's also a key component in making Tarmogoyf such a crazy threat. If you aern't sold on running 4 Hymn, I would suggest starting from the ground up with your list, as it's definitely a key card in my main 60.

That all said, Hymn often gets sided out in games 2 and 3 in favor of alternatives. But this depends on the matchup.

Snapcaster seems much better in a control deck playing more reactive counterspells. This version of BUG is constructed to tap out more often in order to fully utilize all of its mana each turn, while retaining the ability to react via FoW and Daze. I also am a bit wary about including even MORE cretaures that rely on the graveyard, as I fully expect to see Rest in Peace grow in popularity as a response to BUG's popularity. But I suppose if you wanted to play 1-2 copies, you could probably fit him in somewhere.

BR Reanimator: it's a legit deck, but not one that I feel is common enough to justify going overboard to address. The BEST card against them is Faerie Macabre, as it gets around Chancellor's resistance. Otherwise just hope and pray that you won the die roll and are able to lead off with a DRS and some counterspells. With my list, there's a decent number of sideboard cards that can help out, but there's really nothing that you can do if they get a God Hand,

[Manipulato]

Yay, we´re deck to beat now :cool: Thx Fatal Push:wink:

[Dice_Box]

Yay, we´re deck to beat now :cool: Thx Fatal Push:wink:I am sure no Elves had anything to do with it.

[Quasim0ff]

Yay, we´re deck to beat now :cool: Thx Fatal Push:wink:

More like, thanks malimujo? :D

[Manipulato]

More like, thanks malimujo? :D

This thread is about the BUG Midrange/Control lists not BUG Delver aka Team America, so no thx to Malimujo :wink:

[Grand Superior]

wcm - how has the traditional heavy black Team America manabase been treating you now that you have lots of UU casting costs? I'm intrigued by your list but I'm wondering how stable the manabase is since you're supporting both BB for Hymn/Tombstalker and UU for True Name/Clique/Postboard Jace. I remember that the point of contention between the old Hymnstalker and TNNSeize lists a few years back was essentially a choice between BB or UU.

[wcm8]

The mana-base has been fine. The deck is mostly geared around reliably casting Hymn on Turn 2, so there's an emphasis on early access to BB. The deck wants to be able to curve out as much as possible, with a perfect sequence being Turn 1 DRS (ideal, but FPush or Ponder are okay too), Turn 2 two-drop, Turn 3 three-drop with a Daze, FoW and/or Wasteland thrown in the first few turns somewhere. The mixture of cards seems to facilitate this tap-out approach pretty well, and if you were able to curve out you're very likely to be winning the game.

I am a *little* iffy on some of the greediness of recent adjustments, e.g. I think that I still want 3 Ponders (thus cutting Sylvan Library for now), and I also am going back-and-forth between the 4th Tarmogoyf vs. the 3rd TNN. It is very matchup (and context) dependent that it's really hard to say which threat would be better for the deck overall.

[Manipulato]

Hey guys,
on Saturday I played our local monthly event and went 3:2 after 5 rounds of swiss, not the result I wished for but I wanted to report you guys how it went even with a result like this.

This was the list I played:

15 Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Baleful Strix
2 Tarmogoyf

25 Spells
4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
1 Umezawas Jitte

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sylvan Library

20 Lands
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Umezawas Jitte
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Maelstrom Pulse

FoW Count -> 22

Round 1: BR Reanimator Won 2:0
Game one he had the perfect opening OTP with Chancellor, Land, Petal, Looting discard Chancellor and then he fizzled because he wasnt able to find a reanimation spell in time and I beat his face with a 5/6 Tarmogoyf + Leovold...
Game two I had all the answers after a mulligan to 6...Surgical, FoW, Shaman etc...

Round 2: Elves Lost 1:2
Those games were more grindy than you would expect it from the Elves MU! 3 long grindy games...I won game one but sadly lost the other two after he topdecked his 2nd or 3rd NO from the top which won him the game. This was really frustrating because I handled all the NO´s before with Thoughtseize and was 1 turn away from landing and equipp Jitte. SCM, TS & FP were great here and did a lot of work. Sadly I was never able to draw one of my two jitte´s.

Round 3: Elves Won 2:0
Yay, another Elves oponent :rolleyes:
This time I shot my oponent to the stone ages and killed every single dude he landed with multiple AD, FP, SCM and while TS away his NO´s. TNN and Leovold clocked him meanwhile. Both games were not really close...No Jitte here either...

Round 4: Burn Lost 0:2
Both games were super close and thrilling. game one I stabilized on 2 life with an active shaman on board and enough dudes in the GY after he fireblasted me. I activated the +2 life ability in my mainphase to play around a burn spell in response to my EOT lifegain, he had no Cards in Hand and I saw a Jitte on top of my library with a ponder. I said go and he topdecked his 2nd fireblast with exactly 2 remaining mountains in play. I snaped in SCM in response to find my 3rd FoW but wasnt able to find it...
In game two I had a super start with T1 Shaman which he bolted and then hymend away 1 goblin guide + a mountain T2. Killed his other guide with FP, FoW´ed his Eidolon and landed a Jitte on 17 or 18 life. Then I had no other dude in hand and joked with my oponent "I´m sure I will die with an jitte on board", man I shouldt have said this :laugh: Exactly this happened...I drew 2 Ponder + 1 Brainstorm after landing the Jitte and never ever drew one fucking creature for the rest of the game and he killed me from 17 or 18 life down to 0 :cry:
This was one of the most shitty games of magic I ever played...The ponders always showed me land, land, land -> shuffle -> land.
Well you cant beat the Magic gods...

Round 5: NicFit Won 2-1
I lost game one to a zenithed Sigarda which killed my Jace and then me...My both 5/6 Tarmogoyfs ans shaman were deeded away.
I won game two and three after I killed two Shamans on his side with maelstrom pulse and wasted him...He missed his Therapys to sac his explorer in game two and three so I could manascrew him. Leovold + Tarmogyof + Strix killed him finally. I also had needle on Sensei´s top and a Jace on the battlefield which were super strong.

After that I played a 3 match game vs a Buddy of mine with 4c Deathblade and won 2:1. The games were always decided by TNN and Leovold which is a house in those MU.

The result was not good but it´s still ok because the games which I lost were not very good MU´s in general and super close. It was still frustrating because I knew the meta before (3 Elves 2 Burn) and changed my Sideboard with -2 Diabolic Edict +1 Jitte +1 Cage and never drew one of them when I really needed it...

I would cut the cage on bigger event for sure because I really want 2 Edicts in the SB for opposing TNN´s, Marit Large Tokens or big dudes like emrakul/Griselbrand and so on...
The 2 Hymns were ok but not super great tbh. The 1 Bayou felt good in the manabase and I think I will keep it for now. I marked the 2 hymn with a edding to see what would have been my 3rd Goyf or my 3rd TS and there were some situations especially vs burn where I would have prefered the Goyf over the Hymn but other games where it didnt really matter...
I drew the Goyfs quite alot even if I only played two.

The MVP´s were definitely Snapcaster Mage, Fatal Push and the TNN´s. Leovold was great vs the 4c Deathblade list but in the other MU´s I did not draw him very much or he was just a 3/3 which drew me one card. I was really happy with Thoughtseize and was able to snag away the NO all the time.

One problematic thing I noticed was that I wanted to bring in 6 cards vs Elves but really just could cut 5 from the MD which sucked a bit. I also recognized that when I cut 2 Goyfs and maybe 1 strix vs Elves I only have 13 creatures left (I bring in 1 Clique) which is not super consistent with the 2 Jitte plan. The same goes for the burn MU where I cut 2 TNN because they´re to clunky and slow in this MU. It´s even worse against burn because I dont bring in Clique which means I only have 12-13 creatures left...

My boarding plan vs Elves was:
+ 2 Toxic Deluge
+ 1 Umezawas Jitte
+ 1 Pithing Needle
+ 1 Grafdiggers Cage
+ 1 Vendilion Clique

- 2 Tarmogoyf
- 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
- 1 Sylvan Library
- 1 Baleful Strix
- xx (Here´s the problem)

I dont want to board out another Strix because then I play really not many creatures for the 2 Jitte and my blue count for FoW goes also in an unconsistent direction which is dangerous because I have to counter the NO.

[Manipulato]

Any results or some feedback you guys want to share? Lots of people threw in there decklists one or two weeks ago. Would be cool to hear what results you guys had.

[centurion911]

I am unsure if this is where I should be posting but I have a question on sideboarding, below are my decklist and sideboard

Land (21)
1x Bayou
1x Forest
1x Island
2x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
2x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wasteland

Sorcery (4)
2x Ponder
2x Thoughtseize

Instant (16)
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
3x Daze
2x Fatal Push
4x Force of Will
Creature (14)
4x Deathrite Shaman
2x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4x Noble Hierarch
4x True-Name Nemesis

Enchantment (1)
1x Sylvan Library

Artifact (1)
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Planeswalker (3)
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard (15)
1x Dread of Night
2x Fatal Push
2x Flusterstorm
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Painful Truths
2x Pithing Needle
2x Submerge
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Thoughtseize
1x Umezawa's Jitte

I am wondering how I sideboard vs the Dredge matchups. For Dredge I am going

+2 Push, +2 Surgical, +1 Nihil, +1 Thoughtseize, -3 Jace, -1 Sylvan, -1 Jitte, -1 Leovold

I'm not too confidant on what I'm siding out, is it right? Also is Pithing Needle worth bringing in to stop Street Wraith/Phantasmogorian? Is there anything else I should be siding out?

[anwei]

I'm not too confidant on what I'm siding out, is it right? Also is Pithing Needle worth bringing in to stop Street Wraith/Phantasmogorian? Is there anything else I should be siding out?

Those are okay cuts, though you have to watch your blue count - FoW is reasonable enough disruption that dropping to 18 blue cards is not great.

Fatal Push is not very good. Occasionally I guess you hit a Narcomoeba with no Bridges in the yard, or kill your own dork to wipe their Bridges, but a 2-card combo to slow one of their lines of attack is not Plan A.

Flusterstorm is better to bring in than 2 Pushes, for Looting / Breakthrough / protect Surgical against early Therapy, and is blue.
I'd consider the 5 maindeck kill-removal spots to be bad, and maybe you want Jace over some number of Decay. (If there are no mediocre cards, probably you cut Decays for Pushes in the board, but again, they're really not very useful.)

[Karhumies]

I am wondering how I sideboard vs the Dredge matchups. For Dredge I am going

+2 Push, +2 Surgical, +1 Nihil, +1 Thoughtseize, -3 Jace, -1 Sylvan, -1 Jitte, -1 Leovold

I'm not too confidant on what I'm siding out, is it right? Also is Pithing Needle worth bringing in ...?

Flusterstorm, Nihil and Surgical are your best sb cards to bring in. Seize is good on the play but risky on the draw because they might use up all of their non-dredgers on T1 on the play, after which your Seize is accelerating them by hitting a dredger.

Combination of 3-4 Push/Decay (leaving 1-2 in to primarily hit your own team), 2 Jace (leaving 1 in) and 1 Leovold/TNN is what I would probably sb out. Leaving in the Library to filter for additional hate cards in mid-game is the right choice IMO. Leaving in 1 Jitte is more controversial, but it's likely to be better than an extra Push/Decay by having the versatility of killing your own guy with counters to get rid of bridges, boosting TNN damage output to outrace them or using life gain to get 1 extra turn in a bind.

Needle usefulness depends on what list they run. Completely useless against some lists, semi-useful against most. Flusterstorm is typically way better than Needle because you want to hit their discard outlets. Needle can shut off e.g. Cephalid Coliseum, but by the time that's relevant something has probably gone wrong already.

[centurion911]

That's good to know, I will definitely be siding out some decays and be playing Flusterstorm in the matchup.

Is Fluster worth playing vs Elves? My biggest fears in that matchup are Glimpse and NO but I don't know if Fluster will be enough to stop it.

[anwei]

That's good to know, I will definitely be siding out some decays and be playing Flusterstorm in the matchup.

Is Fluster worth playing vs Elves? My biggest fears in that matchup are Glimpse and NO but I don't know if Fluster will be enough to stop it.

It's fine against them: Making them pay +2 on Glimpse is often enough to ruin the turn. Many combo-turn Natural Orders are effectively hard-countered. An untap-and-NO might stick them with a non-lethal team if they need to tap guys to pay. Catching a key GSZ can be functional removal and break up their combo. Etc.
Of course it's possible that it's dead, but it's probably better than Abrupt Decay (and it's blue).
It looks like you have a lot to bring in, so they always could be your worst inclusion, but Jace/Daze are among your likely cuts, which sinks the blue count quite a bit (probably to 18 without flusterstorms, 20 with). So, I'd say they come in.

On a related note, you might want consider the removal package out of the board some, and most answers to opposing TNN would also likely help against Elves. You have 12 creature-hate cards in the 75, but no answers to TNN, a Grixis Angler, Reality Smasher, Marit Lage, JTMS etc. Pulse/Edict/Murderous Cut/Dismember or Engineered Explosives/ Marsh Casualties/Toxic Deluge/that new 2B -1/-1 instant could be considerations.

[theMonster]

On a related note, you might want an out to opposing TNN somewhere, and that would likely help against Elves. (Engineered Explosives, Marsh Casualties, Toxic Deluge, or that new 2B -1/-1 instant.)

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=369071&type=card&options=rotate90

This is a strictly better version of Make Obsolete. You get the freeroll of the white side of the card if you have Deathrite out, which could keep your TNNs alive against opposing sweepers.

Of course Zealous Persecution is worlds better than either of these cards. Is it possibly worth splashing for it in the sideboard? Maybe we run a white dual in the sideboard like Shardless used to do when it played Meddling Mage. That could open up cool anti-combo cards like Mage, Containment Priest, Ethersworn Canonist, etc. - cheap threats to bring in when TNN is too clunky. A white splash is easier in the Hierarch builds, of course, but it's something I've been thinking about.

[anwei]

I had no idea that was a card; thanks. I've been seeing Make Obsolete show up and thinking, "did this really not exist at instant at 3 CMC?"

I expect that most metas will be affected deeply enough by Fatal Push (and the upswing TNN was already on) that nimble threats and versatile removal will be table stakes in creature matches for a bit. I get nervous putting together lists with a swarm of Decay/Push that are just cold to the aforementioned threats. Angler seems like a good place to be, and I think BUG should be considering lists that can play Lily as a grindy card that can answer some otherwise difficult threats.

[wcm8]

Do not side out Umezawa's Jitte against Dredge, as it can single-handedly help you win the game against that deck. Repeatable removal and life-gain is key there.

Regarding White splash: I don't think this version of BUG really needs to, since unlike Cascade we are able to play situational counterspells. White does provide some pretty good options, but I think BUG has plenty of tools to cover just about anything without needing to dip into a 4th color.

edit: also, don't cut Leovold against Dredge either. He's relevant against Cabal Therapy, Breakthrough, Faithless Looting, Careful Study, Cephalid Coliseum, etc.

[LarsLeif]

Any results or some feedback you guys want to share? Lots of people threw in there decklists one or two weeks ago. Would be cool to hear what results you guys had.

I'm playing this list right now:

CREATURES (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Tombstalker

SORCERIES (8)
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
1 Painful Truths
1 Marsh Casualties

INSTANTS (16)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Daze
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Kolaghan’s Command

PLANESWALKERS (1)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

LANDS (20)
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands

SIDEBOARD (15)
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Forked Bolt
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Spell Pierce
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Life from the Loam

I think that the red splash actually improves the deck a fair bit. Especially the blasts give it a lot of edge vs miracles and the Leo/TNN mirror.

[kingtk3]

Hey guys,
This was the list I played:

15 Creatures

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Baleful Strix
2 Tarmogoyf

25 Spells
4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sylvan Library

20 Lands
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Spell Pierce
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Umezawas Jitte
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Maelstrom Pulse


One problematic thing I noticed was that I wanted to bring in 6 cards vs Elves but really just could cut 5 from the MD which sucked a bit. I also recognized that when I cut 2 Goyfs and maybe 1 strix vs Elves I only have 13 creatures left (I bring in 1 Clique) which is not super consistent with the 2 Jitte plan. The same goes for the burn MU where I cut 2 TNN because they´re to clunky and slow in this MU. It´s even worse against burn because I dont bring in Clique which means I only have 12-13 creatures left...

My boarding plan vs Elves was:
+ 2 Toxic Deluge
+ 1 Umezawa's Jitte
+ 1 Pithing Needle
+ 1 Grafdiggers Cage
+ 1 Vendilion Clique

- 2 Tarmogoyf
- 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
- 1 Sylvan Library
- 1 Baleful Strix
- xx (Here´s the problem)

I dont want to board out another Strix because then I play really not many creatures for the 2 Jitte and my blue count for FoW goes also in an unconsistent direction which is dangerous because I have to counter the NO.


I don't know if you keep it postside, but I'm pretty sure I don't want Thoughtseize against burn because it's deceively useful: you think that you're spending 2 life to take out a card that will deal you 3 or more damages, but in reality you are hurting yourself and speeding the clock of the burn player.
You are using your mana to deal yourself damage and it's not like you're discarding a key spell (like against a combo deck) because all the spells in burn do the same thing: so in one turn, for instance, you will take 5 damage and take out a card from burn instead of taking 3 and advancing your board, or countering the burn spell itself.
The odds that the burn player will draw another burn spell are in their favor, so the card you took out basically didn't matter for them. Instead of discarding the price of progress tha will deal you 6 damage in the future, you should advance your board and counter it when it'll come.

With your list against burn I would side as follow
-2 Thoughtseize, -1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, -1 Sylvan Library, -1 Abrupt decay, -1 TNN
+2 Spell Pierce, +2 Flusterstorm, +1 Umezawa's Jitte, +1 Vendilion

Against Elves I think that Decay is not as strong as you're other options because it costs too much to take out a single piece, and giving that you are bringing in 2 mass removals plus a Jitte I would take out a decay, maybe even 2 if you want to keep the second strix maindeck.

Just my 2 cents.

[btm10]

I've been playing something very close to Duke's GP maindeck (-1 Hierarch, -1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, +2 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar) with a smattering of sideboard changes (the only noteworthy one is -1 Mindbreak Trap, +1 Spell Pierce). Nissa has been surprisingly good in basically all fair matchups, breaking symmetry in TNN mirrors, giving me additional resistance to sweepers, being a threat in its in right (and making all the extra mana dorks much more threatening). I haven't missed the third Jace at all.

[Karhumies]

Nissa has been surprisingly good in basically all fair matchups, breaking symmetry in TNN mirrors, giving me additional resistance to sweepers, being a threat in its in right (and making all the extra mana dorks much more threatening). I haven't missed the third Jace at all.

In what MUs if any is the Nissa better than 1BB Liliana in that slot? Liliana can also break the TNN symmetry if she gets to make the opponent sacrifice theirs.

[theMonster]

At the end of Ben Friedman's article about group constructed (http://www.gatheringmagic.com/benfriedman-02242017-team-constructed-is-the-future-of-magic/), he talks about his disappointment with Delver as an archetype and the decisions prompting his experimentation with BUG Midrange. He posted a video (http://www.gatheringmagic.com/benfriedman-02242017-60-card-shootout-legacy-sultai-garbage/) of a league with an early iteration of the deck and then 5-0d with this list (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14793&d=289074&f=LE) (pretty sure that's him).

Notable inclusions:

- maindeck Marsh Casualties
- two Liliana, the Last Hope
- four Snapcasters alongside three Anglers (helped by the Lilis and two Thought Scours)
- zero True-Names
- no maindeck discard but five pieces in the sideboard

Anyone have any thoughts? At first glance, this list looks weak against combo in game 1 and very soft to Rest in Peace (and taxing on the graveyard in general), but it's gotta be pretty resilient in fair matchups and brings in a ton of disruption for combo post-sideboard.

[btm10]

In what MUs if any is the Nissa better than 1BB Liliana in that slot? Liliana can also break the TNN symmetry if she gets to make the opponent sacrifice theirs.

You need to be pretty deep on spot removal to make Liliana of the Veil a reliable answer to TNN, which that deck isn't. Noble BUG also doesn't produce BB as reliably as GG or UU, which is a real consideration. She also plays poorly with countermagic, which the deck runs more of than it runs discard. Nissa not only fogs creatures like Gurmag Angler forever, the +1/+1 counters often turn your mediocre lategame mana dorks into real threats, and she's much better at defending herself in Noble BUG than Liliana is since you don't have as many expendable (or awkwardly-sized) bodies to chump with as something like Shardless does, and is MUCH better against Miracles, especially Mentor versions.


At the end of Ben Friedman's article about group constructed (http://www.gatheringmagic.com/benfriedman-02242017-team-constructed-is-the-future-of-magic/), he talks about his disappointment with Delver as an archetype and the decisions prompting his experimentation with BUG Midrange. He posted a video (http://www.gatheringmagic.com/benfriedman-02242017-60-card-shootout-legacy-sultai-garbage/) of a league with an early iteration of the deck and then 5-0d with this list (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14793&d=289074&f=LE) (pretty sure that's him).

Notable inclusions:

- maindeck Marsh Casualties
- two Liliana, the Last Hope
- four Snapcasters alongside three Anglers (helped by the Lilis and two Thought Scours)
- zero True-Names
- no maindeck discard but five pieces in the sideboard

Anyone have any thoughts? At first glance, this list looks weak against combo in game 1 and very soft to Rest in Peace (and taxing on the graveyard in general), but it's gotta be pretty resilient in fair matchups and brings in a ton of disruption for combo post-sideboard.

It seems fine; I tried Liliana, the Last Hope in Shardless when it first came out and it was fine overall and actually better against Miracles and D&T. I'll watch the video, but the deck is very much Friedman's style (Scour, Angler, and Snapcaster Mage are among his favorite cards). I disagree on some of his minor points (there are multiple ways to build the manabase for Hymn/Liliana/Tombstalker BUG Delver lists, and most of those have better mana than 4c Delver over the whole game, though they're subject to similar awkwardness early on) but BUG, Grixis, and 4 colors-not-white seem to form their own province of Legacy deckbuilding at the moment (and arguably constitute their own macro-archetype). There's certainly nothing wrong with his list on spec, though it's not some inspired, we-should-all-run-his-exact-75 feat of deckbuilding genius either.

[Xerlic]

A store about 30 minutes away from me started doing Legacy FNM, so I went there instead of going to the store within walking distance that does draft for FNM.

Here's my list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold
3 Tarmogoyf
3 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
2 Thoughtseize
1 Counterspell

1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Jace the Mindsculptor

3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
9 Fetchlands
1 Forest
1 Swamp

SB:

2 Diabolic Edict
1 Sylvan Library
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Duress
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Pithing Needle
2 Marsh Casualties

R1 vs. RUG Delver

This is a friend of mine who used to play at the store I usually go to. He's been playing RUG Delver for a long time and has a foiled out deck. He also assumed that I was also on RUG Delver since I played it a lot several years ago.

G1: He gets a T1 Delver that flips and he stays ahead via Daze, Force and Stifle. I get RUG'd out and couldn't find a Decay to get rid of the Delver.

SB: -4 FoW, -1 Jace, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 Vendilion Clique, +1 Jitte, +1 Flusterstorm

I made a mistake sideboarding here. I haven't played against RUG in a long time and completely forgot about Nimble Mongoose. With that in mind, Jitte becomes quite a bit worse since I have plenty of removal already for Goyf and Delver. I should have brought in the Edicts for the geese.

G2: This game goes a bit longer. He has the bolt for my T1 Deathrite and eventually gets 2 Mongeese with Threshold. I can't find a fatty to keep them back and die while staring at 2 Abrupt Decays in my hand.

Loss 0-1

R2 vs. Merfolk

G1: He has no Vial on T1 and I stay ahead of his lords with removal. He eventually draws a Cavern and slams down a True-Name. He's already ahead in life, and I can't race it.

SB: -4 Force of Will, -1 JtMS, +1 Jitte, +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Marsh Casualties, +1 Vendilion Clique

G2: He keeps a one lander with a vial. I decay the vial and get kill him with a Tarmogoyf wearing a Jitte.

G3: Similar to G2, he keeps a 1 lander with a Vial except this time I don't have Decay. I have a T1 Deathrite, and use it for mana for the first 3 turns so I'm ahead of him on plays. I TS him and see a bunch of Silvergill Adepts and a Back to Basics, so I fetch my 2 basics to stay play around it. I land an early Jitte and get counters on it with a tiny Goyf against his lord and Cursecatcher. I make a mistake here and instead of just killing his lord, I pass the turn and let him tick his vial up to 2. I then try to kill his lord during the attack step and of course he vials in another lord. I should have just killed the lord on my turn when his vial was on 1. I then grow my goyfs to 4/5s by throwing Ponder into his Chalice on 1 and Wasteland a land. He takes the 8 in an attempt to race, which is hard against a Jitte. I eventually land a True-Name and he concedes since I have an active Jitte.

Win 1-1

Round 3 vs Death and Taxes

G1: I don't have a lot of notes for this round. I know G1 he was choked on mana but has an active vial. I made a huge punt here. My hand has a JtMS in hand and I have 4 lands against his Thalia. For some reason, I decided I need to resolve this JtMS so I abrupt decay his Thalia and he bounces it with Karakas. I then wasteland the Karakas after he does this. I should have decayed his vial and then Wastelanded the Karakas to make the 2 Flickerwisps in his hand uncastable. I eventually lose when he plays Recruiter into Mirran Crusader and can't find a True Name.

Out: -4 Force, -1 Jace, +1 Needle, +2 Marsh Casualties, +1 Jitte, +1 Edict

G2: Not much to say here. I have a Jitte out but he has Swords for 2 of my creatures. He eventually gets 2 Mirran Crusaders. On the turn he has lethal I finally draw a TNN.

Loss 1-2

So, punts were of course made.

I really wish I had an Island instead of a Forest. Jace and FoW came out in every match, and walking around the room I saw a lot of creature decks being played. If I ever go back, I might run Lili instead of a Jace.

[theMonster]

Won FNM last night (3-0-1), beating Turbo Depths, drawing with Bant Blade (lots of Batterskull/TNN stare downs), and beating DnT twice. Here's what I played:

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
1 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Tombstalker

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Wasteland

// sideboard //

2 Pithing Needle
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Dread of Night
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Painful Truths

The singleton Goyf looks weird, of course. I never drew it, so I have no idea if it's better than the third Strix I normally play. I just figured that I wanted access to an efficient beater in combo matchups. I boarded it out against all the Swords to Plowshares decks in favor of the Clique. The maindeck Marsh Casualties was a concession to TNN, Grixis Delver, Belcher, and two DnT pilots in the room, and I was glad I had it. I tried cutting Sylvan Library for this FNM, but I think it was a mistake.

A few things:

- I find myself bringing in Clique in almost every matchup. Should I just play it over the Goyf and free up a sideboard slot? I just worry about the glut of 3-drops with only Deathrite as acceleration.

- How would you sideboard against Turbo Depths with my list? I've played a few matches against it but don't have a set plan. I basically won both my games by racing them/playing a tempo game. I think I boarded something like this - probably wrong:

-1 Jitte, -2 Decay, -2 Push, -1 Casualties, -1 TNN, -2 Leovold, -1 Jace
+2 Needle, +2 Surgical, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Thoughtseize, +1 Clique, +2 Edict, +1 Surgery

Jace seems like it might be a viable out to a resolved Marit Lage if I can block for a turn, so maybe that should stay in. I left in one Decay for their Pithing Needles - don't know if that's worth it or not. I didn't bring in the full three Surgicals because I can't Thoughtseize Dark Depths and then Extract it. Plus they're probably not dropping Depths until they're ready to go off. I could Hymn it and hit it, but that's a corner case. Leovold seems like it doesn't do much, even though all of the opponent's discard targets. Maybe it's better than TNN, but they can't Decay the latter. I left the second Flusterstorm in the 'board 'cuz I didn't know what else to take out. Again, there's probably something I'm missing with this plan, so I'd love to hear y'all's thoughts.

- I've been leaving in one Force of Will against DnT to combat early Vial draws if I don't have a Decay/Needle and (more importantly) Council's Judgment for my TNN. One of my DnT opponents said Spell Pierce (which I've been boarding out) might just be better than Force to fulfill that role. Anyone else agree?

Thanks, everyone!

[Manipulato]

I don't know if you keep it postside, but I'm pretty sure I don't want Thoughtseize against burn because it's deceively useful: you think that you're spending 2 life to take out a card that will deal you 3 or more damages, but in reality you are hurting yourself and speeding the clock of the burn player.
You are using your mana to deal yourself damage and it's not like you're discarding a key spell (like against a combo deck) because all the spells in burn do the same thing: so in one turn, for instance, you will take 5 damage and take out a card from burn instead of taking 3 and advancing your board, or countering the burn spell itself.
The odds that the burn player will draw another burn spell are in their favor, so the card you took out basically didn't matter for them. Instead of discarding the price of progress tha will deal you 6 damage in the future, you should advance your board and counter it when it'll come.

With your list against burn I would side as follow
-2 Thoughtseize, -1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, -1 Sylvan Library, -1 Abrupt decay, -1 TNN
+2 Spell Pierce, +2 Flusterstorm, +1 Umezawa's Jitte, +1 Vendilion

Against Elves I think that Decay is not as strong as you're other options because it costs too much to take out a single piece, and giving that you are bringing in 2 mass removals plus a Jitte I would take out a decay, maybe even 2 if you want to keep the second strix maindeck.

Just my 2 cents.

Hi,
I agree with you totally about Thoughtseize vs burn! TS is really not a good card vs them and I boarded them out with this configuration.
I would board like this:
+2 Spell Pierce
+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Umezawas Jitte

-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-1 Sylvan Library
-1 TNN

I only let 2 TS stay in the sideboard games when I only had 2-3 cards to bring in...Then I cutted only 1 Jace, 1 Library 1 TNN or whatever because I just had nothing else to bring in. But how you said earlier sometimes you can hit PoP or Fireblast and safe 2-4 lifepoints. If I have anything just slightly better I defenetely cut the TS immediatley.

Same goes for the Abrupt Decay vs Elves...I also agree here that it´s by far the most shitty removal in this deck vs Elves and decaying a 1/1 for two mana feels just bad but at the end of the day it gets the Job done.
Most Elves players in my region bring in cards like Jitte (Chaos Elves has it even MD!), Choke or Scavenging Ooze (Also MD).
The Ooze for example gets huge really fast and then two Jitte counters for example dont kill him or I have to pay huge amouns of life to deluge him away. AD is still a flexible answer to all of the problematic cards not just for there creatures and I still think it´s worth keeping in the sideboard games...

What other options do you mean in favor of the 1-2 AD? Maelstrom Pulse, Flusterstorm, Spell Pierce? I know that some people bring in Flusterstorm for potential NO, Zenith or Glimpse but I´m really not a big fan of it because a Cradle opener will shut off those taxing counter really fast and it´s a dead card vs the rest of the deck.
If you had other experiences with Flusterstorm vs the non-creature spells in the deck I would be curious to hear something from you and am open for advices.

[wcm8]

Hi all, some updates with my BUG Aggro-Control list. I have made a few tweaks and am testing some new SB tech:

20 Lands (usual configuration: 9 fetch, 4 waste, 4 sea, 2 bayou, 1 trop)
4 DRS
4 Goyf (necessary to have enough 2-drops and increase the deck's overall aggression -- Goyf simply closes out games better than TNN, and the 3rd TNN was clogging the 3-cmc slot)
2 Leovold (amazing, amazing card. If you are playing BUG, this belongs in your maindeck at 2-3 copies.)
2 TNN
1 Tombstalker (still an amazing bomb against the field)
1 V. Clique (occupying the 4th Ponder slot, which is not as critical due to cutting Delver -- serves as additional disruption and a surprise blocker/finisher/planeswalker assassin)
1 Sylvan Library (fantastic all around card, Goyf food)
1 Liliana of the Veil (ditto)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach (these 12 disruption slots are great all-around against basically everything outside of certain corner-cases)
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push

So the main changes to the main 60 were to cut 2 Push slots in favor of Library and Liliana. Both changes are warranted as they increase the deck's power against Control (and combo, to an extent) and yet I am still finding that the game 1 matchup against Aggro decks tends to be mostly favorable. Library helps with finding additional removal if needed. Really though, the creatures are already functioning as brick Walls against most threats you end up seeing and can typically stall the ground long enough for you to find removal if needed.

Sideboard:
2 Invasive Surgery
2 Thoughtseize (could potentially be a 1/1 split or replaced entirely with Collective Brutality if more removal is warranted)
2 Jace, TMS
2 Golgari Charm (clears out X/1s at Instant speed, and the other modes are frequently relevant -- as I am only playing 2 TNN, I greatly prefer this to Marsh Casualties)
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Darkblast
1 Life from the Loam
1 Cabal Pit

Thoughtseize is primarily there for fast combo, but as I mentioned, Brutality is another consideration if you tend to run into more small creature decks while still being good against Control. It also shares synergy with the SB's Life from the Loam sub-theme since you can justify pitching extra lands to hit more modes.

Cage and Surgical are there as backup for DRS against graveyard shenanigans, but I suppose you can sacrifice these matchups in favor of alternatives if you feel it warranted. I like having at least a *chance* against these sorts of decks, though the card you REALLY want against BRx Reanimator is Faerie Macabre.

Darkblast is just all-around good right now, hitting Elves and DNT equally while also being useful against decks playing a bunch of X/1 dudes. I was playing Jitte previously, and while it's an excellent card, it's often win-more and also has some tension with Null Rod (which I am frequently bringing in against the same decks where I want Jiite). Another problem with Jitte is that it's just not that great at coming back from a losing board position -- besides requiring 4 mana, you also need a creature to make its way into the red zone successfully -- often easier said than done.

Cabal Pit functions as the 21st Land when you are siding into being a midrange Planeswalker strategy, and also serves as a semi-uncounterable form of removal which is repeatable in tandem with Loam. Right now it's perhaps the most questionable sideboard slot, but so far I've been really happy with it in longer games (e.g. BUG pseudo-mirror).

Depending on the frequency that you encounter decks like Reanimator, Show and Tell and/or Dark Depths, some number of Diabolic Edict may warrant consideration, but I've found that these decks are beatable with the rest of the deck's tools and often if you are actually fighting over an on-board Griselbrand, the game is already over.

[btm10]

I like your general plan, wcm, though I'd definitely find a way to work a Counterspell or 2 into the 75, and I've been much happier with the full 4 Thoughtseizes when I'm trying to play with Jace against Miracles. The Snap/Pyroblast problem is too real otherwise. And I'm hesitatnt to play the full 4 Goyfs without them being an easy 5/6 at baseline. Shardless is a phenomenal Tarmogoyf deck, in large part because it usually packs 6-8 Artifacts maindeck alongside a smattering of Planeswalkers and Enchantments so its Tarmogoyfs are reliably bigger than just about any creature people are actually casting. Your deck can theoretically get to 6/7, but it's 4/5 the vast majority of the time. I'm not sure what I'd change, but I think it's worth considering a way to grow the Goyfs more reliably or simply swapping 1-2 out for another Delve threat or a True-Name (which is at its best alongside threats that don't die to Golgari Charm anyway).

Crucible seems better than Loam too, fwiw.

[wcm8]

Mt main 60 is the same as previously noted, but the sideboard has been slightly adjusted:

2 Jace TMS
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Thoughtseize
2 Invasive Surgery
3 Golgari Charm
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Surgical Extraction

I dropped Loam as spending a slot for it didn't really feel justified right now. I'll keep Crucible in mind as an alternative in case I decide to revisit this angle.

Garruk was added mainly for the Miracles matchup, but he's really quite good elsewhere. A steady stream of creatures is difficult for a lot of decks to manage. Bitterblossom was considered, but the life loss can become relevant. That said, I think there is validity in playing a BUG Faeries deck, but that's for discussion on another thread.

I added the third Golgari Charm mainly to address the current popularity of TNN, but Charm finds itself frequently boarded in against a wide variety of decks. With my current configuration, I seem to be incredibly favored against Elves, and fairly well-positioned versus DnT. Jitte was brought back in favor of Darkblast simply to have a more extreme game-ending bomb.

Edit: Tarmo being a 4/5 is still incredible, as it presents a 5 turn clock on its own. Often though, between fetch, FoW, GProbe, and earlier DRS activations, your opponents are already at 16 or less life by the time Goyf starts swinging. I don't think the difference between being a 4/5 or a 5/6+ all that significant in most games. And since I've added sylvan library and Liliana back to my main 60, it has been more common for them to get especially huge.

[Hrothgar]

I up the topic quoting the Talpa's post because this is a very nice list and for improve the thoughts about the side-in / side-out vs Miracle.
Is good for us to have all the post about BUG midrange in a only topic:



Excuse me for the off-topic, but in response to Hrothgar (ciao, www.tipo1.it è ancora online? :P) and Krimson Viper
My latest list of BUG Control WITHOUT Shardless:

10 fetch
1 swamp
1 forest
1 ISLAND
2 wastelands
3 underground sea
2 tropical island
1 bayou

4 deathrite shamans
3 baleful strix
3 tarmogoyfs
3 true-name nemesis
2 leovold
1 snapcaster mage

4 force of will
3 thoughtseize

3 abrupt decay
2 fatal push
1 maelstrom pulse

2 jace
1 garruk relentless

4 brainstorm
2 ponder
1 painful thruths

-------SIDEBOARD-------
2-3 surgical extraction
1 grafdigger's cage
1 vendilion clique
2 invasive surgery
1 flusterstorm
1 pithing needle
1 null rod
2 marsh casualties
1 dread of night
1 to the slaughter
1 misdirection


How I boarded against miracle last sunday:
OUT 3 seize 4 shamans
IN 1 surgical 1 vendilion 2 invasive surgery 1 needle 1 rod 1 dread of night 1 to the slaughter (going to 61 - you can avoid dread of night if you see they don't play mentors)

But all of this is quite off-topic since this Bug Control list plays a bit differently than shardless (especially tempo-wise, it's better at controlling and maybe also at having a resilient threat -nemesis, especially if you manage to surgical or delirium-counter their terminus- but slower).


In this list i see the presence of all the 3 basic lands, this help us vs Moon, Back to Basics and aggressive Waste/Stifle decks. In add to this, make the Nemesi's resolving, more simply then the classic two basics lands.
No Liliana here, but 2 Jace and a Garruk (I play Garruk in Shardless too and is a great card - by the way for now I try 2 Liliana, the Last Hope) and just one Snap.

The mono-Maelstrom resolve some problems like Jace and Batterskull and this is a card great in a midrange/control bug imho.

Other thoughts?

[theMonster]

These lists look good, for sure. What are people's opinions on Jitte in this shell? I've been running it main, and it's definitely won me plenty of games (though there's lots of DnT by me). That said, sometimes it's either too slow or win-more. It also conflicts with Null Rod, which is why I vacillate between 2 Needles and the 1/1 Needle/Rod split (and Needle hits things like Thespian's Stage, Griselbrand, opposing Jaces, etc.).

[btm10]

In this list i see the presence of all the 3 basic lands, this help us vs Moon, Back to Basics and aggressive Waste/Stifle decks. In add to this, make the Nemesi's resolving, more simply then the classic two basics lands.
No Liliana here, but 2 Jace and a Garruk (I play Garruk in Shardless too and is a great card - by the way for now I try 2 Liliana, the Last Hope) and just one Snap.

The mono-Maelstrom resolve some problems like Jace and Batterskull and this is a card great in a midrange/control bug imho.

Other thoughts?

I'm not a fan of the tension between having 3 basics and 5 UU spells, especially since it's important to be casting TNN and Decay on curve. That deck just looks like Shardless where the Agents and Visions got replaced by TNNs and some random midrange cards. Sure, it's better against Death and Taxes, but it's almost assuredly worse against the field. I don't see its preboard combo matchups improving, for example.


Mt main 60 is the same as previously noted, but the sideboard has been slightly adjusted:

I dropped Loam as spending a slot for it didn't really feel justified right now. I'll keep Crucible in mind as an alternative in case I decide to revisit this angle.

Garruk was added mainly for the Miracles matchup, but he's really quite good elsewhere. A steady stream of creatures is difficult for a lot of decks to manage. Bitterblossom was considered, but the life loss can become relevant. That said, I think there is validity in playing a BUG Faeries deck, but that's for discussion on another thread.

I added the third Golgari Charm mainly to address the current popularity of TNN, but Charm finds itself frequently boarded in against a wide variety of decks. With my current configuration, I seem to be incredibly favored against Elves, and fairly well-positioned versus DnT. Jitte was brought back in favor of Darkblast simply to have a more extreme game-ending bomb.

I like Jitte a lot right now so no questions there, and land recursion is always a meta call (I was very high on it last spring and summer when Lands, Loam, Shardless, and Eldrazi were very popular). The big concerns I have with this version of BUG is that it doesn't have enough cards to hang in the late game preboard, and with the increased presence of TNNs amd Delve fatties in the metagame I'm concerned about it getting out-topdecked in a way that traditional BUG Delver didn't have to be.




Edit: Tarmo being a 4/5 is still incredible, as it presents a 5 turn clock on its own. Often though, between fetch, FoW, GProbe, and earlier DRS activations, your opponents are already at 16 or less life by the time Goyf starts swinging. I don't think the difference between being a 4/5 or a 5/6+ all that significant in most games. And since I've added sylvan library and Liliana back to my main 60, it has been more common for them to get especially huge.

This could be differences in local metas, but I'm seeing a lot more Gurmag Anglers than I did pre-AER, and that's the main reason I think 5/6 at baseline is so important. TNN is fine, but it's pretty easy to kill once your opponent knows you've got one.

[talpa]

I'm not a fan of the tension between having 3 basics and 5 UU spells, especially since it's important to be casting TNN and Decay on curve.


You're right at pointing out that UU casting cost can be a trouble, but it's surely easier when you have a basic island instead of a wasteland (which by the way makes harder also to cast decay). But I disagree that you HAVE to play TNN in curve. This is NOT a tempo list. It's a control one. You should drop the nemesis when you are switching from the control plan to the offensive, ie only when you have already accomplished surviving the early game and controlling the board state. OR, if you need to keep the nemesis on block duty


That deck just looks like Shardless where the Agents and Visions got replaced by TNNs and some random midrange cards. Sure, it's better against Death and Taxes, but it's almost assuredly worse against the field. I don't see its preboard combo matchups improving, for example.


Actually, this list plays better than Shardless against the metagame. It can have troubles against Shardless itself, but less troubles against delver based. The combo matchup is difficult for Shardless as much (but what place has combo nowadays in the metagame anyway except BR Reanimator?). Plus, 3 snapcastable seize instead of random tourach off the cascade makes actually the matchup slightly better. And I'm a fan of boarding heavy against combo.

Finally, Agents (who is a pitchable do-nothing 2/2 "and hope that with these 3 mana I hit something relevant off-cascade instead of missing randomly") and Visions (a "spend one mana on turn-1, go 1 card less in hand and hope to not die before it resolves" or "I have to play shaman turn 1, so I can suspend it somewhen between turn 2 and turn 10, going surely off-curve by paying this mana") are not replaced by RANDOM midrange cards. The list is the latest iteration of months (almost a year) of trials and evaluation of each single slot. The cards who made the cut are solving this very problem of yours:


The big concerns I have with this version of BUG is that it doesn't have enough cards to hang in the late game preboard


I think one can play bug in three ways:
- Delver based, tempo, slightly better matchup against combo, worser matchup against controls
- Shardless: more powerful than tempo lists but slower than them, though faster than control list. More clunky than both; and how the game evolves hinges not only on the player choices but is more affected by how lucky a move plays out
- Control(/Midrange): I don't like to randomly cascade something, I want control on what happens to the game. It's harder to play against combo than with a delver list.

[btm10]

You're right at pointing out that UU casting cost can be a trouble, but it's surely easier when you have a basic island instead of a wasteland (which by the way makes harder also to cast decay). But I disagree that you HAVE to play TNN in curve. This is NOT a tempo list. It's a control one. You should drop the nemesis when you are switching from the control plan to the offensive, ie only when you have already accomplished surviving the early game and controlling the board state. OR, if you need to keep the nemesis on block duty.

I don't find this compelling at all. How are you pivoting to a position of inevitability? You don't have any non-Force countermagic in the maindeck, so you're leaning very heavily on Jace's fateseal to stop your opponent from drawing out of a race against TNN, Garruk, or Tarmogoyf. You built a midrange deck, not a control deck. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's important to be clear about what you're trying to do so you're doing it the best way you can.




Actually, this list plays better than Shardless against the metagame. It can have troubles against Shardless itself, but less troubles against delver based. The combo matchup is difficult for Shardless as much (but what place has combo nowadays in the metagame anyway except BR Reanimator?). Plus, 3 snapcastable seize instead of random tourach off the cascade makes actually the matchup slightly better. And I'm a fan of boarding heavy against combo.

I'm pretty skeptical of this whole line of reasoning. BUG pseudo-mirrors are a big chunk of the meta right now and Shardless has edges in all of them. Having not played your exact list against Delver I'll refrain from saying it's better/worse than Shardless, though I've been perfectly content with every BUG midrange and control list I've tried against Delver. They're all solidly positive matchups. As for combo, any improvement you see in your matchups compared Shardless is likely an artifact of your opponents assuming you have non-Force countermagic that you don't have. Those differences are real in the short run but are on diminishing returns the longer you play your deck without actually running those counters.



Finally, Agents (who is a pitchable do-nothing 2/2 "and hope that with these 3 mana I hit something relevant off-cascade instead of missing randomly") and Visions (a "spend one mana on turn-1, go 1 card less in hand and hope to not die before it resolves" or "I have to play shaman turn 1, so I can suspend it somewhen between turn 2 and turn 10, going surely off-curve by paying this mana") are not replaced by RANDOM midrange cards. The list is the latest iteration of months (almost a year) of trials and evaluation of each single slot. The cards who made the cut are solving this very problem of yours:

This really seems to be the crux of the issue. It's all well and good to just not like the Cascade mechanic, and I gather that you're not a fan. It's another to suggest that the deck playing more high CMC spells is somehow clunkier than the deck that actively seeks to use it expensive spells to cast additional spells for free. If Vision is routinely forcing you to play off-curve, I suspect that the list you were working with was poorly designed or you or your testing partner wasn't playing optimally.

[archone]

Shardless doesn't have a position of inevitability either. Sure, you can draw some cards, but not all of your cards will be relevant or line up against the opponent. You can draw half your deck and still lose against a loam/p-fire deck, or even a single endbringer. TNN BUG is not a control deck but playing shardless agent doesn't automatically make you a control deck either. You're sacrificing card advantage for speed and efficiency on a continuous scale, that's the direct trade-off and it's up to you to decide whether that wins you more or fewer games.

The problem with shardless is endemic, the deck is extremely clumsy and loses often to bad draws. Just look at a typical shardless deck, your only good turn 1 play is DRS. Suspending ancestral is weak and slow, while casting brainstorm turn 1 is almost always giving up value. There is almost no other deck in legacy that has so few relevant turn 1 plays because tempo is so important in legacy. Look at any other deck, they're going to have more, stronger 1 mana plays than shardless such as vial, stp, delver, top, chalice, thoughtseize, ponder, therapy, etc etc. All of these cards are very efficient and allow you to curve out with maximal mana efficiency. Shardless has a glut of 3-4 cmc spells, which means that it often loses (or wins) games with spells choked in hand. Wastelands are often time walks against shardless.

Another problem with the deck is the extreme variance in shardless cascades. Shardless into abrupt decay is often dead, while other cards like thalia and chalice can make your other hits dead. You can try to play around these probabilities, but if you're playing optimally you're going to have to roll the dice at least some of the time. Furthermore your deck doesn't board well against combo, you can try to switch out your clunky 3 drops for flusterstorms and surgicals but you just have too many bad cards and not even fast ones.

Shardless is obviously not an unplayable deck but it has glaring weaknesses that BUG midrange attempts to mitigate.

[Manipulato]

Shardless doesn't have a position of inevitability either. Sure, you can draw some cards, but not all of your cards will be relevant or line up against the opponent. You can draw half your deck and still lose against a loam/p-fire deck, or even a single endbringer. TNN BUG is not a control deck but playing shardless agent doesn't automatically make you a control deck either. You're sacrificing card advantage for speed and efficiency on a continuous scale, that's the direct trade-off and it's up to you to decide whether that wins you more or fewer games.

The problem with shardless is endemic, the deck is extremely clumsy and loses often to bad draws. Just look at a typical shardless deck, your only good turn 1 play is DRS. Suspending ancestral is weak and slow, while casting brainstorm turn 1 is almost always giving up value. There is almost no other deck in legacy that has so few relevant turn 1 plays because tempo is so important in legacy. Look at any other deck, they're going to have more, stronger 1 mana plays than shardless such as vial, stp, delver, top, chalice, thoughtseize, ponder, therapy, etc etc. All of these cards are very efficient and allow you to curve out with maximal mana efficiency. Shardless has a glut of 3-4 cmc spells, which means that it often loses (or wins) games with spells choked in hand. Wastelands are often time walks against shardless.

Another problem with the deck is the extreme variance in shardless cascades. Shardless into abrupt decay is often dead, while other cards like thalia and chalice can make your other hits dead. You can try to play around these probabilities, but if you're playing optimally you're going to have to roll the dice at least some of the time. Furthermore your deck doesn't board well against combo, you can try to switch out your clunky 3 drops for flusterstorms and surgicals but you just have too many bad cards and not even fast ones.

Shardless is obviously not an unplayable deck but it has glaring weaknesses that BUG midrange attempts to mitigate.

Yeah I fully agree with your statement. The reason for me to play a BUG Midrange/Control list over the classic Shardless version is that you just have way more efficient one mana spells! In my current list I have 4 Shaman, 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 3 Fatal Push & 2 Thoughtseize where a stock Shardless list has only 4 Shaman 4 Brainstorm (Which sucks T1) and maybe here and there 1-2 Thoughtseize for example. Especially in Legacy it´s super important to have good T1 plays because the format is so fast and manadenial is a thing. Sure most of the BUG midrange lists also have 6-8 clunky cc3 spells in the MD but together with so many cheap cc1 spells it´s by far not "That clunky" like in Shardless. I gave Shardless a shot 2 years ago with a traditional Hymn list and it felt super clunky and slow and I had not a good feeling playing it at all, but yeah those are just personal preferences of course.

I think the biggest advantage of Shardless is that it has a better BUG mirror MU than we have but I´m really more comfortable against the field in general. And even in the BUG mirror it´s not like they stomp us down with one hand on the back or something...We also have a lower land count than them (20 to 22/23) which gives us less dead draws and the risk of getting flooded is not that high.

[btm10]

Yeah I fully agree with your statement. The reason for me to play a BUG Midrange/Control list over the classic Shardless version is that you just have way more efficient one mana spells! In my current list I have 4 Shaman, 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 3 Fatal Push & 2 Thoughtseize where a stock Shardless list has only 4 Shaman 4 Brainstorm (Which sucks T1) and maybe here and there 1-2 Thoughtseize for example. Especially in Legacy it´s super important to have good T1 plays because the format is so fast and manadenial is a thing. Sure most of the BUG midrange lists also have 6-8 clunky cc3 spells in the MD but together with so many cheap cc1 spells it´s by far not "That clunky" like in Shardless. I gave Shardless a shot 2 years ago with a traditional Hymn list and it felt super clunky and slow and I had not a good feeling playing it at all, but yeah those are just personal preferences of course.

I agree with this analysis, which is what I was getting at when I said the lists in question were likely built incorrectly, though most Shardless lists are. My concern is that unless a BUG midrange/control list is doing something to differentiate itself from Shardless beyond running more Ponders, it's likely just a worse deck overall. Duke ran Dazes at GP Louisville, several others (including me) are running Counterspells and/or Spell Pierces. If the goal is to be a control or aggro-control deck, that's differentiation, if your deck can be described as 'Deathblade without the bad cards and Swords to Plowshares', you probably want to reevaluate what you're trying to achieve, because there's already a deck that does that better.

I'm harping on this point because I think it's important: I'm just looking to play the best Deathrite Shaman deck in Legacy, not to adhere to any particular playstyle.

[iostream]

I played a list similar to wcm8's list last weekend at an EE Satellite:

9 fetches (4 Delta, 3 Verdant, 2 Misty)
7 targets (4 Underground Sea, 2 Bayou, 1 Tropical Island)
4 Wasteland

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 True-Name Nemesis

1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push

Sideboard

2 Golgari Charm
2 Invasive Surgery
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Submerge
1 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Vendilion Clique

I started 4-1 and lost the last two rounds of Swiss to end at 4-3. You can see me losing to an Infect player in round 6 here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/125249726

I beat D+T, Lands, Grixis Delver, and Colorless Eldrazi. I lost to Grixis Delver, Four-Color Delver, and Infect.

Things I noticed:

- The 2 Noble Hierarch were quite good. Casting your 3-drops on turn 3 is a lot worse than on turn 2, and the Exalted trigger is relevant surprisingly often. With a lower curve (no MD Jace), I don't think you want 4, but I think you should be playing a few of these. I'm not sure why everyone seems to be on 4 or 0.
- Hymn is a lot worse here than in regular BUG Delver because you don't really have as many threatening turn 1 plays (i.e. no Delver) to force out a card or two. So your turn 2 Hymns often face 7-card hands, and that's not where you want to be. This breaks my heart because Hymn is one of my favorite Magic cards ever. I think running the standard 2 Thoughtseize and spending the extra slots somewhere else is better.
- 3 Fatal Push is too much, even in the matchups where you had decent targets, drawing multiples was awkward. Should be 2.
- My list needs more outs to Gurmag Angler, singlehandedly turned wins into losses in my two Delver losses since I had very few ways to deal with it. I want to run Baleful Strix hoping to block and an extra SB card or two.
- This isn't a very good Tarmogoyf deck, especially now that I want to cut Hymns after this experience. You really need your opponents to provide a card type reliably. e.g. against Colorless Eldrazi, Goyf was stuck at 2/3 or 3/4 a lot just because I didn't happen to draw one of my six sorceries. I really want something like Goyf in here, though, in the sense that I think Reid Duke's original decklist is too durdly for my playstyle. I just want to be able to close out games faster.
- Vendilion Clique got sided in almost every match and I want to just move it into the maindeck.
- Didn't really get punished for having no basics, even against Wasteland-heavy draws. DRS and Hierarch make up for that, and this deck has a lot of diverse casting costs, which makes basics a real liability.
- Probably want that fourth Wasteland to be another dual, multiple Wasteland hands made for some pretty awkward mulligans.
- Sideboard was a trainwreck disaster all day. Submerge is too narrow. Invasive Surgery is too narrow. Golgari Charm backfired a lot and got mainphased a lot, so it should probably just be Marsh Casualties. Deluge doesn't fix any problems since you frequently can't afford the life in the matchups where you really want it.

Thoughts on random cards people have suggested:

- Liliana of the Veil seems suboptimal, you don't run enough removal to make it actually edict TNN reliably. Same deal with Diabolic Edict.
- Delve creatures are obviously good as a threat later in the game, but I doubt the deck actually needs that sort of thing. TNN and Leovold are great at setting up dominating late games in fair matchups. Where the deck kinda sucks is in pressuring combo decks in the early game. Without something like Tarmogoyf, you are not pressuring them for 2-3 turns, and then poking them for 3 each turn, which is not fast enough most of the time.
- Card types for Goyf: For sorceries, the obvious idea is to just play more Ponders, Thoughtseize, etc. But I don't want to! This is not a deck that can usually cast a threat after resolving Ponder/Thoughtseize most of the time. I think I might rather play copies of Gitaxian Probe before adding the third Ponder or Thoughtseize... For artifact, Strix seems sweet.
- Serious question: what is Jace supposed to be good against? Against any deck that tries to disrupt your mana, it feels very hard to cast. That seems like a huge Game 1 liability, and that's why I put it in my board, but even in post-board games, I almost never wanted to bring it in. Part of that was the matchups I faced, but in general it seems clunky except against dedicated control strategies.

[theMonster]

Thanks for the thorough writeup, @iostream. I wanted to ask about a few of your specific points:

- What does your new creature suite look like if you include some number of Strix (which would make Goyf marginally better) and the (now maindeck) Clique? I assume you'd shave on Goyfs but still play some number, right? I've been playing a more grindy version with a couple Snapcasters, which have been good for me in both fair and unfair matchups. But I agree that having access to Goyf better helps clock combo.

- I've been running a 2/2 Thoughtseize/Hymn split, which has been fine. Perhaps playing Thoughtseize alongside countermagic instead of Hymn would be good. Having permission to draw into with Leovold on the board seems solid.

- I've struggled to evaluate Jace, too, finding myself siding it out more often than not. I'm probably more bearish on it than most. I'd really appreciate anyone's input on his place in the current metagame.

Thanks!

[btm10]

I haven't been impressed with Jace either, but I do think that the Duke-style lists want some kind of curve-topping threat, and Jace is very good at that. I've been very happy with my Thoughtseizes rather than Hymns, though.

[iostream]

Thanks for the thorough writeup, @iostream. I wanted to ask about a few of your specific points:

- What does your new creature suite look like if you include some number of Strix (which would make Goyf marginally better) and the (now maindeck) Clique? I assume you'd shave on Goyfs but still play some number, right? I've been playing a more grindy version with a couple Snapcasters, which have been good for me in both fair and unfair matchups. But I agree that having access to Goyf better helps clock combo.

- I've been running a 2/2 Thoughtseize/Hymn split, which has been fine. Perhaps playing Thoughtseize alongside countermagic instead of Hymn would be good. Having permission to draw into with Leovold on the board seems solid.

- I've struggled to evaluate Jace, too, finding myself siding it out more often than not. I'm probably more bearish on it than most. I'd really appreciate anyone's input on his place in the current metagame.

Thanks!I really don't know what the correct creature suite is. I realized that if I'm moving 4 Hymn into 2 Thoughtseize + 2 Strix like I suggested in the previous post, Goyf probably gets a little worse, not better. It's hard to get Strix in the graveyard quickly (and you don't actually want to just have it die immediately since your hope is that it trades with something), and there are just fewer sorceries in the deck. That means artifact isn't really easier, and sorcery is somewhat harder. So Goyf is worse overall.

It's possible that Reid found the correct solution right off the bat, i.e. give up on two-drops and play 4 Hierarch for Exalted triggers so that your TNN's and Leovolds aren't such a crappy clock. I agree that with so much mana, you want something to do with it if your mana isn't disrupted, so I guess Jace is the best thing one can imagine. Every deck has to have a worst card, I suppose. To make the deck slightly more threat-dense, I suppose one can imagine doing something very gentle to Reid's maindeck 60, like -1 land, -1 Jace, +1 Clique, +1 Delve creature to make it:

4 DRS
4 Noble
4 TNN
2 Leovold
1 Clique
1 Tombstalker or Angler
2 Jace

or something close to that, maybe 1 less TNN, maybe 1 more Delve creature.

Or maybe Hierarch itself makes Tarmogoyf a little more reliable without assistance from Strix:

4 DRS
4 Noble
3 TNN
2 Leovold
1 Clique
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Jace

Or maybe you start cutting other spells to make room for a couple Strix. These are all things that need to be tested, and it's not obvious to me what is best.

[talpa]

I suspect that the list you were working with was poorly designed or you or your testing partner wasn't playing optimally.

Forgive me btm10, but It seems to me that you are judging my comprehension of the archetype, while you don't know me and my general ability to play the game, and because of this I find you a bit rude. I played BUG lists since when playing Landeed was an actual option. Before playing these midrange lists, I played Shardless for more than a year, collecting some result, and -I presume- learning a little bit of how that deck works, what are its strong and weak points.
(Side note: aside from the organization of these forum, I find it hard to have under a single name "Team America" and "Bug midrange", since the first should refer only to decks that play the tempo game, which means delvers, plus either tourach or stifles).



How are you pivoting to a position of inevitability? You don't have any non-Force countermagic in the maindeck, so you're leaning very heavily on Jace's fateseal to stop your opponent from drawing out of a race against TNN, Garruk, or Tarmogoyf. You built a midrange deck, not a control deck. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's important to be clear about what you're trying to do so you're doing it the best way you can.

Agreed that I should use Midrange instead of Control, but it's just a matter of words, since an actual BUG control doesn't exist. So your plan (with this kind of lists, not for each BUG) should always be to achieve a clean board state, than switch engines and close the game fast. Countermagic is no more an option to achieve "perfect" control against other aggro, tempo, midrange or control strategies (of course it is if you're playing the tempo plan and you only need to buy time, and of course is always a fail-safe) and even against some kind of combo could turn out to be useless (read: show and tell via boseiju). Enjoy your countermagic when you face a turn 1 aether vial or a cavern of souls or when you draw it after they have deployed their threat. I think nowadays the fight is over the board for most of matchups (except vs combo and in some spot against control, where you have to fight for the stack).
I almost never fateseal with Jace unless I'm afraid it could die if I leave it on three or two counters. Jace is there to provide versatility but most of all value.
I actually don't find hard to conceive a plan for "inevitability": the plan is just to have more bombs in your list than they have in their. I don't try to outrace them as I said, unless I have no other options (and the letter would mean that I'm not in optimal shape). If I am facing an opposing nemesis, for example, and I don't have a way of getting rid of it, I am probably losing. Otherwise, I "just" have to survive the early game, trade one for one each of their threat with one of my answers (or stonewall them with a threat of my own), then I should find myself above based on threats that trade favorably (2 for 1 like strixes, leovold, snapcaster), threats that are more resilient than theirs (nemesis) or threats that give continuous value (planeswalkers). It's a road during which you try too collect as many small advantages as you can, in order to find ahead at a certain point.




I'm pretty skeptical of this whole line of reasoning. BUG pseudo-mirrors are a big chunk of the meta right now
I don't know you or USA metagame and I don't play online. Actually, and I know I say this with some arrogance on my part, I think American metagame evolves slower and after European one (read: how long it took for recognizing the strength of miracle, in comparison on how it was played from day one here).
I don't expect to play a mirror each round. Otherwise, I would simply play an anti-bug list. On the contrary, I think legacy as a format where you can face every deck, from dragon stompy to MUD (there was one where I played yesterday, for example; and I faced Eldrazi, Elves, Miracle, Death and Taxes, and Death and Taxes again. In top8 there were two BUGs only, mine and a teammate with a similar list, a show and tell, a tin-fins, a miracle, a death and taxes, ...).


As for combo, any improvement you see in your matchups compared Shardless is likely an artifact of your opponents assuming you have non-Force countermagic that you don't have. Those differences are real in the short run but are on diminishing returns the longer you play your deck without actually running those counters.
I don't understand where you get your data since you haven't tried the list. I admitted that combo is not favorable game1; I also said that I don't see that many of them as for now.
Getting to the comparison between Shadless and my list:
1) Thoughtseize instead of Tourach you can play before they have an opportunity to brainstorm-hide their main piece
2) You can actually keep thoughtseize against some kind of combo where you would have to board out tourachs, like BR Reanimator which I see as the most feared
3) You are once more switching from the luck side (like with the cascade mechanic) to the player choice side (but I can see this should not be counted strictly as a strength, more like a preference)
4) with shardless you actually can't board in counterspells you could cascade into, while without shardless you can.
5) leovold helps a lot (of course you can play it also in shardless, and in fact they have started to, but then you are filling you 3 mana curve, you can't cascade into it, so what's the whole point of playing shardless)
6) snapcaster for seize, or for a counter they have discarded, improves the matchup

[Manipulato]

@ Talpa: Could you please share your list with us? I'm curious :smile:

[talpa]

@ Talpa: Could you please share your list with us? I'm curious :smile:

A few comments before, by hrothgar http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23429-DTB-Team-America-(Midrange-Control-Thread)&p=993484&viewfull=1#post993484

Can you please link where I can find yours? :P

[Manipulato]

A few comments before, by hrothgar http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23429-DTB-Team-America-(Midrange-Control-Thread)&p=993484&viewfull=1#post993484

Can you please link where I can find yours? :P

Oops, I just read/saw the comment of Marco :laugh:

Well I think you know my last list if you're in contact with Marco, it's quite similar to yours exept for the full 4 Ponder, 20 lands & less big spells like 2 jace/1Garruk.

A short tournament report is also welcome. What did you like about the list? What changes would you make?

[talpa]

To be honest, I don't think Marco and I now each other that well, we simply are from the same country and used to contribute to an Italian legacy forum; and if you could post your list, all the thread could benefit.

I don't have much further advice or tournament experience to report: for now I'd change only something in sideboard.
I'm curious about the performance of 4 ponders (and 20 lands). I'm often afraid that even 21 land is one too few. As for the ponders, I often find that I would want a sorcery in my graveyard for tarmogoyf size (in particular vs Eldrazi); on the other hand, I don't want to cantrip too much without action because I'm afraid of going behind on tempo if I can't play a second spell the same turn.

[Manipulato]

To be honest, I don't think Marco and I now each other that well, we simply are from the same country and used to contribute to an Italian legacy forum; and if you could post your list, all the thread could benefit.

I don't have much further advice or tournament experience to report: for now I'd change only something in sideboard.
I'm curious about the performance of 4 ponders (and 20 lands). I'm often afraid that even 21 land is one too few. As for the ponders, I often find that I would want a sorcery in my graveyard for tarmogoyf size (in particular vs Eldrazi); on the other hand, I don't want to cantrip too much without action because I'm afraid of going behind on tempo if I can't play a second spell the same turn.

You can read my report here http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23429-DTB-Team-America-(Midrange-Control-Thread)/page64

My current list looks like this

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Painful Truths

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach

FoW Count 21

But dont take every slot to serious because I'm changing the lists daily and still work on the perfect 75. Nothing is set in stone.
With a similar list I lost to Elves & burn at my last local event. Won vs BR Reanimator, Elves & NicFit...
I try to replace the 2 Jaces with 2 Painful Truths just because of the clunkyness & the full 4 REB/Pyroblast of current european Miracles lists. I replaced the MD Jitte with the 1off Maelstrom Pulse because Jitte supriceingly had not the impact I was hoping for mostly because of the lower creature count especially in sideboard games. Pulse was great so far and can get rid of things like Batterskull, Jace or Delve creatures game 1.
I really would like to play 3 TNN in this list but I dont want to up the cc3 count more because it's already quite high.
I was really unimpressed with Tarmogoyf outside of true combo MU's. When I lower the TNN count I really want a beater which is not that easy to kill and always has 5/5 even if Ooze or Shamans hit the table afterwards. I give up the clock vs combo here for sure but I have to see how it works out, still in progress.

[talpa]

Thank you for sharing. I saw some similar list online, don't know if someone is yours; I like them, but I prefer to have some more late game bomb like Garruk.
I agree with almost all you said. Tarmogoyf shines mostly in the combo matchup. I am not so sure about Angler, though, considering also jace unsummon effect and the fact that you could be unable to deploy it fast when needed.
I also agree with the fragility of Jace vs REB effects. But he does his work also against non-red decks, and until now I haven't been hit too hard for that. I side in some surgical effect against Miracle, so sometimes I was able to extirpate some copy of REB (which went previously on something like leovold or strix). Some other times, I let them destroy it after some turn of brainstorming, when it already had an impact on the game, only for dropping the second copy soon afterwards. Maybe I was lucky, I don't have so many miracle matches under the belt. For sure, Garruk shines there.

Just one thing on the sideboard: I am really liking Invasive Surgery over Flusterstorm. Even without delirium, it's really useful against Terminus and Entreat. And on the combo matchup, I can't think of a frequent scenario where what I want to counter is not a sorcery or I really need the storm effect.

I'll keep testing, and reading here ;)

[btm10]

@talpa - I'll respond to your other post when I'm not at work and have more time to write.

I've gotten pretty close to Manipulato's list as well. I'm not running Hymn (I'm running a third Thoughtseize and a Counterspell), and I think that Tombstalker is just better than Angler if the BB isn't an issue. Opposing Anglers were actually the biggest problem I had during testing, and as a result I've added a Dismember to the maindeck. I'm still on 2 Jace rather than MD Truths because I'm taking a more controlling approach and want the more powerful late game, and my sideboard strategy against Miracles is different as a result (running a Flusterstorm, which I'm ordinarily not a fan of, and bringing in an extra Snapcaster Mage and the fourth Thoughtseize). My solution to the glut of 3-drops has been to just add a one-of Hierarch; I'm not sure if this is better or worse than just playing Reid Duke's list, but it's the best way to minimize clunky draws without cutting the powerful 3-drops. I'm honestly less impressed with Leovold than I am with any other MD card, but I'm not ready to cut him.

Creature (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Baleful Strix
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tombstalker

Interaction (16)
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
1 Dismember
1 Fatal Push
1 Counterspell
1 Spell Pierce
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Draw/Manipulation (7)
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

Planeswalker (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Land (21)
9 Fetch
3 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
3 Graveyard hate (either 3 Surgical or 3 Leyline, on the fence still)
1 Thoughtseize
1 Flusterstorm
1 Counterspell
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Painful Truths
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Dread of Night
1 Fatal Push
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Spell Pierce(?)
1 Pithing Needle

The Pierce might be better as a Pithing Needle, but other than that I'm pretty set on the sideboard.

[anwei]

The BUG mirrors were the only matches which I lost or drew and which felt slightly negative...Thoughtseize always discarded TNN's which was great but at the end of the day I got crushed by another one and/or Leovold which is bonkers vs us.

...

My top 8 oponent left in the FoW's and said he finds it wrong to take them out just because he wants to hold tnn & Leovold off the board. My strategie was to kill them with Edicts & Deluges and the card disadvantage of the FoW's brought me to take them out but maybe I'm wrong here because the FoW helped him in those matches. Maybe the TNN BUG mirror should not be treaded like the Shardless MU where I think it´s correct to take out all Forces just because the whole game is around landing a TNN or Leovold and not Tarmogoyf which can be killed by anything...


I've had minimal time for testing lately, but have been thinking about these decks a fair amount and am about to start preparing for several upcoming events.

I expected that the rise of BUG, upswing in TNN, and gradual return of Sneak/Show would lead to more midrange BUG decks splashing red (for blast) than I have seen.
Have others tried this and found it wanting? Or am I overestimating the prevalence of BUG, etc. in the meta? Particularly in decks with 0 Goyf and 0 Hierarch, where green is only supporting 2-3 Decay, Leovold, and DRS activations, it doesn't seem too bad to fit 2 R/x duals.

Edit: I saw LarsLeif list here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23429-DTB-Team-America-(Midrange-Control-Thread)&p=992650&viewfull=1#post992650), but no real discussion.

[theMonster]

I've had minimal time for testing lately, but have been thinking about these decks a fair amount and am about to start preparing for several upcoming events.

I expected that the rise of BUG, upswing in TNN, and gradual return of Sneak/Show would lead to more midrange BUG decks splashing red (for blast) than I have seen.
Have others tried this and found it wanting? Or am I overestimating the prevalence of BUG, etc. in the meta? Particularly in decks with 0 Goyf and 0 Hierarch, where green is only supporting 2-3 Decay, Leovold, and DRS activations, it doesn't seem too bad to fit 2 R/x duals.

Edit: I saw LarsLeif list here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23429-DTB-Team-America-(Midrange-Control-Thread)&p=992650&viewfull=1#post992650), but no real discussion.

I played against a Hierarch list splashing red today on Cockatrice that maindecked Bolts. I ended up winning 2-1, but my opponent's list seemed sweet. A part of me wanted to try a red splash even for things like Kolaghan's Command, which could recur deceased TNNs, create valuable Snapcaster loops, destroy Batterskull, and provide all kinds of other utility. Granted it's another 3-drop, but I've played with it when I was running 4C Delver, and it did some powerful things.

Regarding the permission suite discussion, I've been running this:

2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

// sideboard //

3 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique

I wanted to test Snare and have found it lacking. I might just move the Pierce to the maindeck instead and replace the Snare slot with something else (or just move it to the side for things like BR Reanimator).

For a red splash, how many Blast effects would y'all play?

[btm10]

For a red splash, how many Blast effects would y'all play?

Probably 2, but what would you cut for them? Probably Flusterstorm and...?

[Karhumies]

For a red splash, how many Blast effects would y'all play?

Versus a diverse metagame, 2 blasts in SB has been a nice number. Opposing Wastelands, Moon effects, Rishadan Port and Price of Progress are likely to punish a 4 color manabase in a wide open metagame more than you gain by splashing, though.

However, for a small well-known local metagame with loads of blue, I might consider dropping green for red altogether. Gives you options such as Vexing Shusher, Chandra, Torch of Defiance, Young Pyromancer, Kozilek's Command, Keranos, God of Storms and Jaya Ballard, Task Mage. Against greedy manabases in a small local meta, red stompy with 8 md moon effects can also stomp out a 4-0 finish. The recent spike in BUG and 4c popularity has really turned that deck into a ferocious tier1 meta killer IMO.

As for anti TNN cards in a BUG shell without sacrificing too many SB slots: Engineered Plague (also useful vs. D&T), Golgari Charm, To the Slaughter.

[anwei]

I think Decay is probably better than Pyroblast, if forced to pick.
But, Pyroblast has so much value against the most popular fair decks (where addressing their biggest threats on the stack is a big deal, but FoW is not ideal).

I don't think the dual commitment is that significant against the nonbasic hate. If you're not heavy on green, you can probably pick unnecessary green duals, 3+ basics, tar pit, 4th wasteland, or you can splash red: 3 Sea, 2 G/x dual, 2 R/x dual, Island, Swamp, 3 Wasteland, 9 fetches. (Picking the duals is actually kind of tough, depends on whether playing K Command, Hymn, etc.)

[btm10]

I think Decay is probably better than Pyroblast, if forced to pick.
But, Pyroblast has so much value against the most popular fair decks (where addressing their biggest threats on the stack is a big deal, but FoW is not ideal).


I actually think this deck is already pretty robust against the format's key REB-able threats. TNN and Leovold cover Jace, and Thoughtseize, Liliana of the Veil, Diabolic Edict, and a bevy of -1/-1 effects kill True-Name. Beyond that, it's Leovold (who's annoying to kill with a removal spell, but you'll seldom lose because of it) and Ancestral Vision, and being reactive to the point of wanting REBs in that matchup isn't a great plan.

[theMonster]

I actually think this deck is already pretty robust against the format's key REB-able threats. TNN and Leovold cover Jace, and Thoughtseize, Liliana of the Veil, Diabolic Edict, and a bevy of -1/-1 effects kill True-Name. Beyond that, it's Leovold (who's annoying to kill with a removal spell, but you'll seldom lose because of it) and Ancestral Vision, and being reactive to the point of wanting REBs in that matchup isn't a great plan.

This is why I haven't yet tried the red splash. I've been beating builds with and without Hierarch, Delver, even Shardless and Landstill. I'm also playing a maindeck Marsh Casualties and a sideboard Edict and Deluge (which I like better than the second Casualties because something you need to sweep someone's X/2s or are cut off of :b::b:), which make TNN more manageable. Casualties has been great, by the way, though I see a lot of DnT around me. I like that it also helps Elves, T1 Empty the Warrens, and sometimes Grixis.

I'm considering the red splash not only for Blasts but also Bolts. I wonder if, with Snapcaster, Bolts make TNN races easier to win. There are pros and cons to Bolts versus Pushes, of course, but at least Bolt is never actually dead (and kills that pesky Mirran Crusader). I take it they'll be killing Deathrites more than going upstairs, though, which makes me want to keep my mana consistent and just play three colors.

Thoughts?

[btm10]

Yeah, I think the mana considerations outweigh any added utility you'd get from Bolt, and I'd add an MD Dismember before I added Bolt or a second MD Push.

[anwei]

After playing with some different mana configurations, it's clear that it does punish the mana-base more than I'd originally thought. Badlands is not great, and Catacombs can't fetch Volcanic, which pushes you deeper into only U/x duals and away from reliably having Swamp.

It might still be good. I'm hesitant to be confident against "builds with and without Hierarch, Delver, even Shardless and Landstill", since at a certain point, the mirror is the mirror, breaking the mirror is good, and I think pyroblast is a reasonable card for doing that. (Though, I concede that it's not amazing at it, and it's obviously more time-circumstantial than Marsh Casualties, etc.)

[iostream]

For those who play basics: how are you enjoying them? It seems unnecessary to me, especially if you're running Hierarchs, since the mana dorks make Wasteland a little worse against you, and since things like Blood Moon are not so prevalent in the general metagame right now.

[jrsthethird]

Hey guys! I saw some of the discussion on Team America with a red splash and I've been playing with a 4c BUG control build for a while to some decent success. I got 3rd in a 102 person EE Platinum event two weeks ago (good for 1 bye to EE6 an an MP Unlimited Tundra), and narrowly lost a win-and-in for top 8 at a Silver event this weekend (flooded hard -- 5 lands in a row, no cantrips -- against Miracles when we were both topdecking (he didn't have Top either).

I had a really intense 25 min feature match (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/125245075) game against Eldrazi in round 4 of the Platinum event where I had to overcome an Ulamog and a Blinkmoth wearing a Batterskull, resulting in me needing to do nearly 40 damage over the game to win. (I also got blown out by Divert on camera in the semis after aggressively fetching basics against BUG Delver, but we won't talk about that...)

Also doing decently on MTGO; I haven't 5-0'd yet, but I haven't had a losing record either.

Current list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Vendilion Clique
1 True-Name Nemesis

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Thoughtseize
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Murderous Cut
1 Painful Truths
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Spell Snare

1 Sylvan Library
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Taiga
1 Swamp

SB:

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 Forest
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Toxic Deluge

I made some small changes that I've been 3-0 online with since my paper results. I was previously running 3 Volc, 1 Bayou, 1 Trop (due to only owning 1 Trop), but I bought a second one so I can change the manabase to something where all my fetches can always find a basic or a red source (previously, Verdant Catacombs couldn't find red; Scalding Tarn can only find basic Island). I also cut a single Inquisition of Kozilek for a Sylvan Library. Not sure yet if I prefer the third discard spell or the additional filtering, but it seems correct.

I usually like to play a more controlling role, which explains the lighter density of threats as well as the 4x Baleful Strix, 2x Counterspell, Snapcaster package, and no Wasteland. It seems like most of my opponents don't really know what to put me on; by virtue of playing BUG colors, you make them fear Wasteland (and to a lesser extent, Daze/Stifle), without having a single copy of any of them in the deck! I consciously avoided Fatal Push, since there is a movement based on playing around the card. I still can't hit shroud threats like Mongoose or TNN with removal, but Cut can handle any delve threat that comes along. Strix is great against delve creatures and Mongoose too. Edicts in the sideboard come in for any of those hard-to-kill threats; it generally seems like people are very unprepared for that sort of removal.

Basic Forest is in the board so I can cast Abrupt Decay against Blood Moon/B2B decks. I don't really need a basic Mountain in those cases, so I don't have one in the deck. Smart fetching is usually enough to beat Wastelands, so I'm not worried about that either. Liliana has been great so far. It's a great value engine (Brainstorm and then -2 away the bad cards, while getting a Snap or Strix back, feels fantastic) and it's another threat that needs to be answered against a long, grindy deck. The only cards in the sideboard I haven't been impressed with are Deluge and Surgical. The latter is most likely because I haven't played against many graveyard synergy decks, which is just luck, I guess. The Deluge, though, has felt subpar every time I've drawn it, and I think I've cast it maybe once? I still want some sort of effect that kills True-Names, so I'm thinking about swapping it out for a Marsh Casualties.

The other thing I've been considering is swapping a maindeck Force for a Misdirection. Not something I really want to test out online (card is 35 tix still...), but I picked one up in paper to give it a shot. Misdirecting a spell that was originally targeted at Leo seems really dirty.

[btm10]

For those who play basics: how are you enjoying them? It seems unnecessary to me, especially if you're running Hierarchs, since the mana dorks make Wasteland a little worse against you, and since things like Blood Moon are not so prevalent in the general metagame right now.

It's a mostly-free hedge against Blood Moon, though the mix of basics you want is going to vary based on how you're building the deck. The mana dorks go a long way toward making the basics less awkward.


Hey guys! I saw some of the discussion on Team America with a red splash and I've been playing with a 4c BUG control build for a while to some decent success. I got 3rd in a 102 person EE Platinum event two weeks ago (good for 1 bye to EE6 an an MP Unlimited Tundra), and narrowly lost a win-and-in for top 8 at a Silver event this weekend (flooded hard -- 5 lands in a row, no cantrips -- against Miracles when we were both topdecking (he didn't have Top either).

I had a really intense 25 min feature match (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/125245075) game against Eldrazi in round 4 of the Platinum event where I had to overcome an Ulamog and a Blinkmoth wearing a Batterskull, resulting in me needing to do nearly 40 damage over the game to win. (I also got blown out by Divert on camera in the semis after aggressively fetching basics against BUG Delver, but we won't talk about that...)

Also doing decently on MTGO; I haven't 5-0'd yet, but I haven't had a losing record either.

Current list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Vendilion Clique
1 True-Name Nemesis

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
2 Thoughtseize
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Murderous Cut
1 Painful Truths
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Spell Snare

1 Sylvan Library
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Taiga
1 Swamp

SB:

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 Forest
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Toxic Deluge

I made some small changes that I've been 3-0 online with since my paper results. I was previously running 3 Volc, 1 Bayou, 1 Trop (due to only owning 1 Trop), but I bought a second one so I can change the manabase to something where all my fetches can always find a basic or a red source (previously, Verdant Catacombs couldn't find red; Scalding Tarn can only find basic Island). I also cut a single Inquisition of Kozilek for a Sylvan Library. Not sure yet if I prefer the third discard spell or the additional filtering, but it seems correct.

I usually like to play a more controlling role, which explains the lighter density of threats as well as the 4x Baleful Strix, 2x Counterspell, Snapcaster package, and no Wasteland. It seems like most of my opponents don't really know what to put me on; by virtue of playing BUG colors, you make them fear Wasteland (and to a lesser extent, Daze/Stifle), without having a single copy of any of them in the deck! I consciously avoided Fatal Push, since there is a movement based on playing around the card. I still can't hit shroud threats like Mongoose or TNN with removal, but Cut can handle any delve threat that comes along. Strix is great against delve creatures and Mongoose too. Edicts in the sideboard come in for any of those hard-to-kill threats; it generally seems like people are very unprepared for that sort of removal.

Basic Forest is in the board so I can cast Abrupt Decay against Blood Moon/B2B decks. I don't really need a basic Mountain in those cases, so I don't have one in the deck. Smart fetching is usually enough to beat Wastelands, so I'm not worried about that either. Liliana has been great so far. It's a great value engine (Brainstorm and then -2 away the bad cards, while getting a Snap or Strix back, feels fantastic) and it's another threat that needs to be answered against a long, grindy deck. The only cards in the sideboard I haven't been impressed with are Deluge and Surgical. The latter is most likely because I haven't played against many graveyard synergy decks, which is just luck, I guess. The Deluge, though, has felt subpar every time I've drawn it, and I think I've cast it maybe once? I still want some sort of effect that kills True-Names, so I'm thinking about swapping it out for a Marsh Casualties.

The other thing I've been considering is swapping a maindeck Force for a Misdirection. Not something I really want to test out online (card is 35 tix still...), but I picked one up in paper to give it a shot. Misdirecting a spell that was originally targeted at Leo seems really dirty.

Divert is pretty old tech for BUG-heavy metagames, so seeing more Deflection effects doesn't surprise me (though I definitely would've been blown out by it too). The list is interesting, but I'm not sure what your list is trying to do/what it gains from being 4 color. A friend of mine and I were testing a similar list last night and I walked away from our session wondering the same thing.

[KobeBryan]

It's a mostly-free hedge against Blood Moon, though the mix of basics you want is going to vary based on how you're building the deck. The mana dorks go a long way toward making the basics less awkward.



Divert is pretty old tech for BUG-heavy metagames, so seeing more Deflection effects doesn't surprise me (though I definitely would've been blown out by it too). The list is interesting, but I'm not sure what your list is trying to do/what it gains from being 4 color. A friend of mine and I were testing a similar list last night and I walked away from our session wondering the same thing.

I would not even consider divert if i am not runninh 4 stifles 4 wastelands

[btm10]

I would not even consider divert if i am not runninh 4 stifles 4 wastelands

That's fine, but nonetheless, it was (and is) a solid piece of tech for matchups where swingy card advantage spells and uncounterable removal are the defining features.

[Theonlyone]

Hello, I see that this thread is in the dtb section but what actual version of the deck could be considered as THE standard list right now? :smile:

[FZA]

Hello, I see that this thread is in the dtb section but what actual version of the deck could be considered as THE standard list right now? :smile:

I assume this is in DTB because of Reid Duke's "Noble BUG" build with Noble Hierarch and 4 TNN. That's the version that's been putting up the results lately. Although it seems like the meta has adjust a lot to TNN and I personally am a fan of the lists people have been posting recently that aren't so all-in on it.

[Chhaam]

I would love to get some input on my current list. This is basically a Shardless list that has been ported over to team america after playing against almost exclusively combo for the past few weekends. So far I'm pretty happy with the main board I feel like I may need to pick up a 4th sea and the basics might be a little off. My biggest concern is the sideboard right now, I'm pretty happy with most of it, but the Maelstrom Pulse I'm still very unsure of. So far it has been playing very well against other mid range decks and against lands. Need to get reps in against the combo decks this weekend.

Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4 True-Name Nemisis
1 Tombstalker

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, The Mind Sculpter

Lands
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Swamp

Sideboard
1 Bitterblossom
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Jace, the Mind Sculpter
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Marsh Casualties
2 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique

Other things I could really use input on:
Should I run TNN?
More Snapcasters?
Bring back goyf?
Hymn?

[LarsLeif]

I don't have time to quote stuff, but I think that it is a mistake to believe you have to choose between Rebs or Decay - the strength of this deck is that it can run both.

And again - you should really consider the mirror implications of the red splash. If you don't splash you will never beat the mirror consistently unless you hedge towards it in other ways (will probably not improve other matchups), if you don't happen to be a much stronger player than the opposition that is.

Tombstalker is also stronger than Gurmag by quite a lot - flying is very good in the meta right now with all the TNNs and stuff.

Kolaghan's Command is one of the key draws to the red splash. That card, plus rebs and bolts/forked bolts are so strong in a bug shell, it covers almost all weaknesses at quite a low cost if you build the mana base correctly.

Anyway, I think the best version is still out there somewhere. I have been thinking about a more reactive shell similar to my adventures with BUGstill (but with more kolaghans command) and it seems I'm not alone with these notions: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/4-color-control-in-legacy/

[btm10]

Hello, I see that this thread is in the dtb section but what actual version of the deck could be considered as THE standard list right now? :smile:

There really isn't one. Reid Duke-style lists, Delverless Delver lists, BUG and 4c midrange and control all count towards the total for this thread. It's probably best to think of it as "Blue Deathrite Shaman decks (Midrange/Control thread".


I don't have time to quote stuff, but I think that it is a mistake to believe you have to choose between Rebs or Decay - the strength of this deck is that it can run both.

And again - you should really consider the mirror implications of the red splash. If you don't splash you will never beat the mirror consistently unless you hedge towards it in other ways (will probably not improve other matchups), if you don't happen to be a much stronger player than the opposition that is.

Tombstalker is also stronger than Gurmag by quite a lot - flying is very good in the meta right now with all the TNNs and stuff.

Kolaghan's Command is one of the key draws to the red splash. That card, plus rebs and bolts/forked bolts are so strong in a bug shell, it covers almost all weaknesses at quite a low cost if you build the mana base correctly.

Anyway, I think the best version is still out there somewhere. I have been thinking about a more reactive shell similar to my adventures with BUGstill (but with more kolaghans command) and it seems I'm not alone with these notions: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/4-color-control-in-legacy/

The only thing I disagree with here is the relative value of any particular tech for the mirror; just about any way of going over top of your opponent or punishing them for trying to go over the top is functionally a trump, and you're going to look pretty silly with Kolaghan's Command or REB if their tech is a non-blue Planeswalker, Sylvan Library, Bitterblossom, or Tasigur rather than Jitte, Jace, Misdirection, or Crucible. Moat games in the mirror are going to come down to a mixture of luck and skill, and the way Grixis, 4c, and BUG decks are built is going to push that balance closer to tight play and sound deckbuilding rather than who has better tech. I'm not saying Red is definitely wrong. It definitely adds very powerful effects, I juat don't know if that power is worth giving up basically perfect mana.

[Karhumies]

I'm not saying Red is definitely wrong. It definitely adds very powerful effects, I juat don't know if that power is worth giving up basically perfect mana.

T2 Hymn / Decay / Strix, T3 TNN / Leovold / Liliana / Pulse, T4 Jace can already be difficult enough without throwing a 4th color into the mix. If you get rid of the basics to support the 4th color, you will be losing hard vs. T1 Moon decks unless your splash includes Punishing Fire or Lightning Bolt.

There are a lot of niche cards for the mirror mu to tune the decklist with even without running a 4th color: Marsh Casualties, To the Slaughter, Garruk Relentless, Tasigur, Jitte, Engineered Explosives (vs especially TNN, Leovold, Liliana), Painful Truths, Divert/Misdirection (vs. Hymn, Decay, Vision) etc. which have a wider use than only the mirror MU.

[Manipulato]

I think a red splash for REB/Pyroblast or Kolaghans Command/Ancient Grudge would be a reasonable choice but I really dont want to mess up my manabase because I come from the 4c camp and I am really happy that things like PoP, Blood Moon, Back to Basics or whatever are not GG anymore.

Even most Miracle decks have 2 Blood Moon in there SB which was the only card I lost to regularly. Most of the time I died with gas in hand just because I had no acces to basics, I´m done with that topic.

If someone really wants to improve his BGx MU´s which are heavily skill and draw dependant obv. then I would reccommend the usual cards like Jace TMS, Lili, Garruk, Hymn, Gurmag Angler, Toxic Deluge, SCM, TNN´s and so on.

But to be honest I dont think a red splash is super important or needed because the BUG colors already give us great ways to fight most stuff and the worse mana we get from it is not really worth it.

[anwei]

In Mengucci's article (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/4-color-control-in-legacy/), he says:



You aren’t playing any Wastelands, since the current metagame features way fewer decks that are worth Wastelanding, and again, the mana base can be a issue in 4c decks. I want it to be as consistent as possible.


I'm curious, in 3-color lists, about the relative value of playing 3 or so Wastelands over more spells (probably just playing 18 fetch/dual/basic lands). Comparatively few cards are ever cast off Wasteland, and we're in less of a position to use them to meaningfully delay the development of other decks than Delver lists (especially without Goyf).
Obviously, sometimes you just get them, sometimes it hits crucial cards like Depths or Boseiju, and sometimes it's a very meaningful axis of interaction against combo. But for a value-driven grindy deck like this, I'm not sure Wateland is trading one-for-one if the game is going long enough that most decks can comfortably draw through it.

I'm testing:
--18 Lands--
4 Sea
2 Bayou
1 Trop
1 Island
1 Swamp
9 Fetch

--16 Threats--
4 DRS
3 Strix
3 Snapcater
2 TNN
2 Leovold
1 Tombstalker
1 JTMS

--26 Spells--
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Painful Truths
1 Unearth
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn
3 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay

(FoW Count 25)

[Baum]

Regarding basic lands and Blood Moon: Do two basics really help us? Most lists posted here have pretty heavy color requirements, so even with island/swamp in play, they can't cast stuff like TNN, Tombstalker or Jace.

Against decks like Dragon Stompy, having basic swamp at least allows us to cast DRS to get Decay mana. But against Miracles we can't rely on having a mana dork in play all the time, so Blood Moon kills us anyway. Basics are probably fine in a list without many double blue or black spells. Or we up the basic count to 3-4, but that might lead to a lot of awkward draws.

For now, I just cut the basics and run more duals. It makes the mana base much smoother in the early turns.

[btm10]

Regarding basic lands and Blood Moon: Do two basics really help us? Most lists posted here have pretty heavy color requirements, so even with island/swamp in play, they can't cast stuff like TNN, Tombstalker or Jace.

Against decks like Dragon Stompy, having basic swamp at least allows us to cast DRS to get Decay mana. But against Miracles we can't rely on having a mana dork in play all the time, so Blood Moon kills us anyway. Basics are probably fine in a list without many double blue or black spells. Or we up the basic count to 3-4, but that might lead to a lot of awkward draws.

For now, I just cut the basics and run more duals. It makes the mana base much smoother in the early turns.

If you're in BUG, it's no basics or Island, Island, Swamp, Forest. Nothing in between. I don't think 4c can support basics OR Wastelands.

[Baum]

Yeah, I was talking about BUG. I saw a lot of lists that run just Island/Swamp, which doesn't seem right to me.

[anwei]

I agree that 2 basics isn't beating Blood Moon and more duals avoids some awkward land configurations, but 2 basics doesn't contribute nothing. The deck has a higher curve than many other fair decks of the format, in its removal and relevant threats. Against Delver decks, the ability to only let their Wastelands threaten your 3rd land puts the game on board and severely hinders their ability to play the tempo game, when they can't inhibit a Ponder+Decay turn.
(It's possible that a single basic swamp does this as well, with less downside.)

[theMonster]

I agree that 2 basics isn't beating Blood Moon and more duals avoids some awkward land configurations, but 2 basics doesn't contribute nothing. The deck has a higher curve than many other fair decks of the format, in its removal and relevant threats. Against Delver decks, the ability to only let their Wastelands threaten your 3rd land puts the game on board and severely hinders their ability to play the tempo game, when they can't inhibit a Ponder+Decay turn.
(It's possible that a single basic swamp does this as well, with less downside.)

This. I play Island + Swamp not because I think they're gonna help me win against Blood Moon (though they certainly don't hurt); I want to ensure that I have two lands in play so that I can play a third land and slam a powerful 3-drop. Sure, they can Wasteland the third land, but now I've got something like TNN or Leovold in play, and often the damage is done. And since I play 21 lands (3 Wastelands), I make land drops pretty consistently. Does the occasional Island + Abrupt Decay/Hymn draw come up? Sure, but you have cantrips to mitigate against them. If you're worried about Blood Moon and/or it's popular by you, I guess you could run a Hydroblast in the sideboard and three basics.

Regarding the no-Wasteland idea, I'm not sure I would do that because you want ways to trigger Revolt for Fatal Push. Plus Wasteland makes your Deathrites much better because they enable you to play an early tempo game. Sol lands are still in the format, too, and Wastelanding them out of the game is a big way to beat them. And sometimes there are annoying utility lands that just need to go. I'm considering shaving one, going down to 2, but I haven't tested that yet. If I cut one, I'd almost certainly replace it with the third Ponder.

And I 4-0d another FNM last night, beating DnT twice, Storm, and BUG Delver. This is what I played:

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
1 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Tombstalker

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Wasteland

// sideboard //

2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
1 Thoughtseize
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Dread of Night
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Go for the Throat
1 Painful Truths

I hate Creeping Tar Pit, so immediately after the tournament I sucked it up and bought the fourth Sea. I didn't like the second Clique at all. My next list will probably be -1 Tar Pit // -1 Clique; +1 Sea // +1 ??? (considering Garruk Relentless or Unearth for fair matchups or another combo hate piece - thoughts?)

I'm also unsure about the singleton Goyf. I drew it a couple times last night, and it basically kept an opposing Goyf at bay. Guess that's something. I want a beater for combo matchups that can sometimes cheese out a win. Maybe it should just be a second Tombstalker, though - that card has been insane.

[Karhumies]

I hate Creeping Tar Pit, so immediately after the tournament I sucked it up and bought the fourth Sea. I didn't like the second Clique at all. My next list will probably be -1 Tar Pit // -1 Clique; +1 Sea // +1 ??? (considering Garruk Relentless or Unearth for fair matchups or another combo hate piece - thoughts?

Reanimator veteran here.

Garruk is excellent vs Miracles & Abrupt Decay decks, and at least OK against D&T as well (flyers, Mother of Runes + swords means it's relatively easy for them to kill planeswalkers by attacking, they have Phyrexian Revoker to name it, and Thalia jumps the cost into 5 mana which van be difficult vs a Wasteland + port deck). Which is where I like to be in the current paper metagame. Liliana of the Veil is a decent alternative here because it can kill an opposing TNN (or even Griselbrand/Emrakul, esp. against SnT) by forcing to sacrifice, but cmc3 means it can be dealt with by Abrupt Decay and it's not as good vs Miracles.

If you are considering Unearth, you could also consider running a 1of Reanimate in that slot because you have Thoughtseize and Hymn as well in the list to bin opposing creatures (although no Liliana). Not sure what combo deck exactly you want to combat, but Reanimating an opposing Golgari Grave-Troll as 0/0 can get rid of opposing Bridges vs Dredge, and reanimating an opposing Griselbrand vs. Reanimator or Sneaky Show can be devastating as well. Whereas in other MUs, you can just go for Strix or Snapcaster for Value with the life price of a Thoughtseize. 3 life for TNN and Leovold should not be impossible either since it's only 1of, and you have a Jitte in the 60.

If you have lots of Reanimator in local meta, you could also swap that 1of MD Tarmogoyf into a Scavenging Ooze to improve the MU g1.

[btm10]

I split Top 8 at an EE Satellite event at Top Deck games in NJ today. I was going to play Shardless but audibled to 4c this morning because of the discussions we've been having in this thread and I wanted to test it out. The decklist was imperfect (I apparently forgot to move the 4th Deathrite out of Shardless and miscounted my cards before I left home and cut the 4th Ponder thinking I had 61 cards, so I played match 1 with a 58 card deck) and my matches were...not really representative of the broader meta, but such is life. Only 16 people showed up so I benefitted from solid tiebreakers despite catching some truly awful matchups.

Round 1: Burn (0-2). I drew both Thoughtseizes and the Dismember game 1, and can't find Deathrite or countermagic to stabilize. I almost get there game 2 but I die to Flame Rift + Price of Progress before I can untap with double Deathrite.

Round 2: 2-0 in games played (I got a game loss for my deck registration error). This match was great. Game 1 I kill everything he plays and stabilize with Jace. Game 2 was extremely close: he wasted all 3 of my Seas, leaving Liliana rotting in my hand for about a dozen turns, forcing me to repeatedly bounce his Gurmag Angler with Jace while frantically producing chump blockers at 1 life and holding up increasingly narrow removal. Once I find a Deathrite, Liliana stabilizes the board and Jace fateseals for the win.

Round 3: Miracles This was a pure control mirror. Game 1 his draw was long on Counterbalances, but Decay, Snapcaster Mage, and my interaction wall keep that in check while anemic value creatures hemmed his Jace in and protected mine. He scoops after countering a Clique on his own end step and me having Kolaghan's Command to get it back and strip his last card. Game 2 played out similarly, but his draw never really came together after an early Thoughtseize left him with a grip full of nonsense. Command might have even been better than REB in this matchup.

Round 4: Jund Sneak Fit (0-2). Game 1 he peels a Grove to get back a Punishing Fire I Thoughtseized on turn 1 and I never get any offense started. I die to two P.Fires against hand of creature removal. Game 2 I Surgical his Fires early and have him dead over two turns with Clique + double Strix, then he wrecks me with multiple Therapys into Fierce Empath into hardcast Inferno Titan in a single turn.

In short: the blue matchups felt great, but non-interactive/linear decks felt predictably awful. D&T is probably not great but totally winnable. I ran:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Baleful Strix
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Tombstalker

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Ponder
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
2 Counterspell
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Fatal Push
1 Dismember
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Kolaghan's Command

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
1 Island (added to make my deck 60 cards)

Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Thoughtseize
1 Fatal Push
1 Golgari Charm
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Pithing Needle
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Dread of Night

I'm​ probably going to cut the Island again for more generic interaction (Thoughtseize or Spell Pierce?), but the deck felt great. I did miss the idea of having Wasteland, but I never wanted for mana. 3 Ponder seemed right even though it was an accident. I'd also like another piece of interaction for the board, since combo seems like it would be slightly unfavorable for the list as it is currently put together. I don't think this is clearly better or worse than BUG.

[ESG]

I split Top 8 at an EE Satellite event at Top Deck games in NJ today.
...
Only 16 people showed up so I benefitted from solid tiebreakers despite catching some truly awful matchups.

All things considered, 2-2 is a pretty mediocre record and wouldn't give me confidence in a deck. Why was there even a Top 8 in a 16-player event? Wouldn't cutting to Top 4 have made more sense?

Also, what did you face in Round 2? Grixis Delver?

[LarsLeif]

T2 Hymn / Decay / Strix, T3 TNN / Leovold / Liliana / Pulse, T4 Jace can already be difficult enough without throwing a 4th color into the mix. If you get rid of the basics to support the 4th color, you will be losing hard vs. T1 Moon decks unless your splash includes Punishing Fire or Lightning Bolt.

There are a lot of niche cards for the mirror mu to tune the decklist with even without running a 4th color: Marsh Casualties, To the Slaughter, Garruk Relentless, Tasigur, Jitte, Engineered Explosives (vs especially TNN, Leovold, Liliana), Painful Truths, Divert/Misdirection (vs. Hymn, Decay, Vision) etc. which have a wider use than only the mirror MU.

Having two basics still means you lose to all T1 Moons where you don't have them in your opener (about 80% of the time or so).

Yes - you can add cards for the mirror, but REBs are so much better in other matchups too. They are good vs almost all blue decks, be it the mirror, delver, miracles or combo. Very few other cards are as versatile, and all of the cards you mentioned can be played in 4c as well.

[btm10]

All things considered, 2-2 is a pretty mediocre record and wouldn't give me confidence in a deck. Why was there even a Top 8 in a 16-player event? Wouldn't cutting to Top 4 have made more sense?

Also, what did you face in Round 2? Grixis Delver?

I agree on both points, but I'm taking this as more of a proof of concept thing than some ringing endorsement of the deck. Neither Burn nor Nic Fit should be particularly workable matchups for fair blue decks, but neither is a significant chunk of the meta. On the other hand, Miracles and BUG Delver both felt great, and aside from D&T and combo, that's what I care about. I'm not attracted to decks that will reliably beat fringe decks or Burn, so while 2-2 is an awful record, 4-0 in games played against decks I should be competitive with is enough for me to say that I'm reasonably happy with the shell as a starting point.

The event did cut to top 8, which I assume was due to the mandated prize structure.

[ChrisDissent]

Hi !

I know it'll look like industrial espionage but I was wondering what decks are problematic MUs for BUG at the moment, as my meta have been overrun by this deck lately.

Thanks for your answers and sorry for my English.

[LarsLeif]

Hi !

I know it'll look like industrial espionage but I was wondering what decks are problematic MUs for BUG at the moment, as my meta have been overrun by this deck lately.

Thanks for your answers and sorry for my English.

Depends very much on the version of the deck - delver, shardless, control or midrange.

[ChrisDissent]

Hi LarsLeif and thanks for your answer.
I'm new to Legacy so I may not distinguish very well the differents version of the deck, but I would say midrange (not Delver, not Shardless).
What I'm facing usually is a Liliana wrecking the board state and TNNs stalling and go for lethal when the board is clear.

I feel like BUG is good against a lot of decks, especially the ones I usually play (Eldrazi mostly), and to get out of this the only solution is playing Burn, which may be good here, but terrible against others top tiers like Miracles or SneakShow.

[iostream]

Hi LarsLeif and thanks for your answer.
I'm new to Legacy so I may not distinguish very well the differents version of the deck, but I would say midrange (not Delver, not Shardless).
What I'm facing usually is a Liliana wrecking the board state and TNNs stalling and go for lethal when the board is clear.

I feel like BUG is good against a lot of decks, especially the ones I usually play (Eldrazi mostly), and to get out of this the only solution is playing Burn, which may be good here, but terrible against others top tiers like Miracles or SneakShow.Midrange BUG decks in Legacy have the typical property that makes people attracted to midrange decks; they don't have a ton of unwinnable matchups. It's very hard to build a deck that just beats the shit out of BUG without conceding a lot to the rest of the format.

That being said, like many midrange decks that shave early interaction for superior late game cards, fast combo can be an issue. Reanimator (either UB or BR) is not a great matchup, especially given that most BUG pilots are cheating on sideboard graveyard hate a little, and since both of those decks have the tools to get around or underneath Deathrite Shaman. Reanimator also has the nice property that it is solidly favored versus Sneak/Show and has a somewhat unfavorable (i.e. not unwinnable) matchup against Miracles, which you mentioned as key concerns.

[anwei]

I played waste-less this weekend at a small, casual (11) event and lost in T4 (got a Karakas):

4 U Sea
2 Trop
2 Bayou
10 Fetch

4 DRS
3 Strix
3 SCM
2 TNN
2 Leovold
1 Tombstalker
1 JTMS

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Painful Truths
1 Unearth
4 FoW
1 Pierce
1 Counterspell
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn
3 Decay
3 Push

Sideboard
2 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Thoughtseize
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
3 Surgical
1 Marsh Casualities
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Dread of Night
1 Clique

I lost to Eldrazi and Sneak/Show, which line up well to the weaknesses inherent in cutting Goyf and Wasteland. Deck was very strong in other matches (2-0'd all, none very close).
I ended up cutting the basics re: previous discussion, since Delver is typically rare at the expected meta, and it wasn't a problem. I'll probably put the Wastelands back. Unearth rotted in my hand a lot, particularly since it's almost fully dead in combo matches and miracles, etc.; it's probably out. If I played tomorrow, I'd go -1 Trop, -1 Unearth, -1 ??? (Leo, JTMS, Strix, or Ponder) for 3 Wastelands and consider trying to fit a 2nd Truths, Counterspell, and/or Tombstalker (which were all excellent). I don't want to take this too far, but the tapout vs. flash alignment of the threats/disruption is a bit mixed, and streamlining that more isn't a bad idea. Attacking with cheap threats (DRS, Delve guys) and flash threats (SCM, Clique) with a suite of SCM-enhanced counters is pretty compelling, though it makes True-Name, Leovold, Hymn, Jace, Truths harder to play. (Possibly go -2 Hymn, -1 Leo, +1 Counterspell, +1 Clique, +1 Thoughtseize). Would drop Deluge from the board for Garruk or the 2nd Leovold or Go for the Throat or something.

A point that I knew, but was still surprised by, and would re-emphasize, is that it's easy for Source/etc. folks to be Legacy nerds and over-metagame. I only saw 1 other Fatal Push and 0 other Leovolds present. This is a particularly slow-to-change meta, but it's easy to have the mindset of "Push is everywhere, so Goyf/Delver are bad, so Push is bad, so stick to Hooting Mandrils and Dismembers" and next-level your metagaming into obscurity. (On the other hand, bigger events will see an abundance of newer tech.)

[Whitefaces]

at a small, casual (11) event

A point that I knew, but was still surprised by, and would re-emphasize, is that it's easy for Source/etc. folks to be Legacy nerds and over-metagame. I only saw 1 other Fatal Push and 0 other Leovolds present. This is a particularly slow-to-change meta, but it's easy to have the mindset of "Push is everywhere, so Goyf/Delver are bad, so Push is bad, so stick to Hooting Mandrils and Dismembers" and next-level your metagaming into obscurity. (On the other hand, bigger events will see an abundance of newer tech.)

I think these two points correlate together.

[btm10]

Testing​ the 4c list more (and reading the discussion in the Miracles thread), I'm at an interesting spot and I'd like some other opinions. The 4c list seems significantly favored against non-Shardless blue decks, Sneak, and Reanimator, even-ish against D&T and Storm combo, and has an acceptable Elves matchup. On the other hand, there's no universe where it's beating Lands reliably since you're basically relying on their deck being non-functional in 2/3 games, and 4c Loam is even worse. Eldrazi, though it's much less popular than it used to be, probably isn't great. The BUG lists get Wasteland and more and better creatures so they can hang better in those matchups, but their blue matchups are closer. My instinct is that 4c is likely the best choice if you're looking to do well at a major event (where you can just accept the poor matchups since you aren't likely to run into them more than once), but at this point is there a reason to not play Miracles (beyond my person distaste for CounterTop)?

[LarsLeif]

Testing​ the 4c list more (and reading the discussion in the Miracles thread), I'm at an interesting spot and I'd like some other opinions. The 4c list seems significantly favored against non-Shardless blue decks, Sneak, and Reanimator, even-ish against D&T and Storm combo, and has an acceptable Elves matchup. On the other hand, there's no universe where it's beating Lands reliably since you're basically relying on their deck being non-functional in 2/3 games, and 4c Loam is even worse. Eldrazi, though it's much less popular than it used to be, probably isn't great. The BUG lists get Wasteland and more and better creatures so they can hang better in those matchups, but their blue matchups are closer. My instinct is that 4c is likely the best choice if you're looking to do well at a major event (where you can just accept the poor matchups since you aren't likely to run into them more than once), but at this point is there a reason to not play Miracles (beyond my person distaste for CounterTop)?

If you are looking for opinions I think that it is reasonable to also provide some background for the 4c decks. It was more or less created as a stand-alone archetype by Tomas Mar who won one of Europe's largest legacy tournaments last year (Ovino XI) with this deck: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13630&d=280217&f=LE. I wasn't there but this was during the Eldrazi winter, and I think he beat both Angelo Cadei and Tomas Vlcek to ultimately claim the trophy.

The deck was then later picked up by Noah Walker and Oliver Tiu at GP Louisville, who both claimed it to be very good (Noah went 12-3). This is the deck that they played: https://twitter.com/EsperNoah/status/818242670434914305

Recently Noah and Andrea Mengucci have started experimenting with a wasteland-less version that is more controlling and reactive - and I am trying that out as well.

As you can see the deck can definitely play multiple wastelands if you want to do that, and I have done that as well without almost any issues. You are also by no means a dog vs lands even without them. Sure, game 1 is very rough, but post board you have infinite surgicals and good answers to their combo, making you a reasonable favourite to win the match. I would not pick up the wasteland-less version of the deck if I was expecting a heavy presence of Lands.dec though.

Why you should play this over something like miracles is mainly because it beats miracles pretty consistently (which is very good and you don't do that if you play miracles yourself naturally). But you also have pretty good matchups across the board otherwise. Having access to four colors also means that you can play very versatile and powerful spells, really diminishing your truly bad matchups.

This is my opinion about the deck right now, but I am still very unsure about the correct way to build the list - it isn't nearly as chiseled out as the other top decks are. Yet :)

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

If your having problems with Eldrazi, try a couple of Trygon Predators in sideboard. With evasiveness, super annoying and very difficult for Eldrazi to remove.

[MXG]

In a vacuum, I'd advocate keeping 2-3 Wastelands in your deck, for the same reasons that Shardless BUG does. Sniping particularly annoying utility lands is a huge angle that this deck has over other control decks (e.g. Miracles), and it seems counterproductive to not press this as an advantage.

[Qweerios]

Hi fellow buggers!

I used to play Bant Deathblade, moved to BUG midrange and finally settled on a BUG midrange deck with a tiny red splash (Bolt and Blast) instead of double black cards (Hymn, Stalker, Lily). I have my main, manabase (yes I play 4c, Basics, and Wasteland), and sideboard settled except for one small detail. I am calling upon your expertise and creativity to settle on my last SB slot. This is my sideboard:


1 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Pithing Needle
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Garruk Relentless
1 ???


I have all the main matchups covered and I need that last slot to have a high impact against Miracles and BUG (Shardless and Midrange).

I currently have Sylvan Library in that slot but I increasingly dislike the card for those matchups because Miracle brings in Wear // Tear for the Needles, and BUG decks have Decay and Leo... Painful Truths is somewhat similar but a little too low-impact for my taste as I don't get to filter every turn in a long grindy game.

I find Garruk to be perfect in those matchups because producing a 2/2 from a PW every turn is backbreaking for Miracle, and he provides CA and removal against BUG. Ideally I would like to play something just like Garruk. Perhaps a 2nd copy is as good as it gets but maybe there is something similar that can be played in tandem with Garruk?

I immediately thought about other PWs and it led me to Xenagos and Arlinn Kord. Xenagos is amazing against Miracles because the tokens have haste but looks lackluster against BUG. Arlinn is interesting against Miracles as she produces tokens and also offers direct damage and Pump/Haste for creatures. What I dislike about Arlinn is how you get all those powerful abilities but don't really get to choose as she requires to be flipped constantly. Also, this is a minor point but the only way to bring her up is to use her pump abilities (AKA: no CA) otherwise she slowly dies to constant flips. Against Miracle she won't produce a constant stream of tokens but she will provide constant aggression and give Jace a beating (more than Garruk). Against BUG she has relevant abilities but the flip constraint might be too restrictive. I also looked into Sarkan (the RUG one) but costing 5 is a downer and being blue is a big no-no against Miracles. He also isn't so hot against Jace...

What do you think/suggest?
Thanks!

[LarsLeif]

I think you should start by:

1. Listening to the latest brainstorm show podcast where they discuss sideboarding. That will probably help you more than us just listing cards that are good against certain decks.

2. Provide us with your MD - what constraints and opportunities for a well rounded sideboard does that imply? Are you playing snapcasters? Do you have sweepers MD? How is the mana base? All these things are important to know if we are going to be able to provide qualitative advice.

3. Consider if Miracles and Shardless is the only matchups where you want this 15th card to be relevant in. If you also would like another card against delver or combo, maybe a more versatile card like another REB effect is more valuable for example.

Start of there and then let us see what we can do. :)

[wcm8]

I ended 5-3 at the Eternal Extravagaza 6 yesterday. Disappointed, because I seriously felt well-prepared to Top 8, and all of my losses happened in extremely close Game 3 scenarios. First, here's the list I played:

20 Lands (usual mixture)
4 DRS
3 Goyf
2 TNN
2 Leovold
1 Tombstalker
1 Liliana otV
2 Jace TMS
4 FoW
4 Daze
3 Hymn
3 ADecay
3 FPush
1 Sylvan Library
4 Bstorm
3 Ponder

SB:
2 Flusterstorm
1 invasive surgery
1 V. Clique
1 Garruk Relentless
1 E. Explosives
1 G. Cage
1 S. Extraxtion
1 P. Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Golgari Charm
1 Dread of Night
1 U. Jitte
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Darkblast

I lost twice to the 4C Midrange Value Control deck that's been becoming more popular lately (and one of these guy's made top 8 -- Phil Pratt, congrats). It's an extremely difficult matchup, as the deck basically plays a million 2-for-1's like Baleful Strix, Snapcaster Mage, Kolaghan's Command, etc. and then of course they get Red Blasts out of the sideboard and Diabolical Edicts to confound your threat base.

My third loss came against a BUG Delver deck in the final round that was playing a fairly low-to-the-ground mix (Spell Pierce, Tsieze). The worst part for me though, and the real reason I lost games 2 were because of Hooting Mandrills. I watched in abject horror as I continued to flood out turn after turn, while a copy of Abrupt Decay and Fatal Push rotted away in my hand.

Some conclusions about the state of NE USA Legacy from this tournament:UWr Miracles is still king of the format. If you don't have a reliable plan to beat this deck, you shouldn't bother playing a big tournament as you are guaranteed to run into it in the higher X-0 brackets eventually. Also, I have found that it is extremely important to diversify your removal suite now, or at least play removal that lacks any conditions. As good as Fatal Push was most of the day, I would have liked having a Dismember and possibly an Engineereed Explosives in the main 60 to deal with random junk. Maybe even consider Diabolic Edict. People have caught onto the fact that playing creatures that dodge most forms of conventional removal is worthwhile.

If I were to continue to develop this form of BUG midrange deck, I would reconfigure the creature mixture. Tombstalker consistently overperformed, whereas Goyf was fairly bad everywhere except against Eldrazi (but then TS would be good there too). Also, Garruk Relentless over-performed and possibly deserves a main-deck slot.

I would probably start testing with the following mix as a main-deck threat mixture:
4 DRS
4 Baleful strix (maybe cut a few ponders if needed to make room, these would help protect your planeswalkers and life total while you assemble a better position)
2 Tombstalker (trumps Angler and TNN by flying)
1 TNN (I think a singleton would be fine as a 'gotcha')
1 V. Clique
2 Leovold (still an amazing disruptive and must-answer threat)
1 Liliana otV
1 Jace TMS
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Sylvan Library
1 U. Jitte --- thus turning all of your threats into potential game-enders

[btm10]

I went 4-2-2 at EE6 yesterday with a 4c Control list; losses came to Burn in round 4 and the mirror in round 7, drew in round 5 with Miracles (we started g3 with < 5 minutes left so it's hard to draw conclusions about how it would've​played out "naturally"; by turn 6 he had a Jace, a Gideon, and 0-1 cards in hand to my Snap + Jace+ Deathrite with answers to both of his Planeswalkers between my hand and known cards on top of my deck; he was probably slightly ahead, but the short game forced both of us to play quite aggressively) and round 8 in the mirror (I ended pretty far ahead with Jace + Deathrite and REB in hand with Force and Fatal Push on top of my Library to his Deathrite in play and Scalding Tarn in hand). I beat Eldrazi, 4c Loam, Grixis Delver (Stifle), and Dredge. I was the only 4c Control player I saw with major threats in the maindeck, and while they were excellent against Delver, Loam, and Dredge, they were major liabilities in the control mirrors at the top tables.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Baleful Strix
2 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Predict

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
2 Counterspell
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Fatal Push
1 Dismember
1 Kolaghan's Command

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou

Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Fatal Push
1 Golgari Charm
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Thoughtseize

[Qweerios]

I think you should start by:

1. Listening to the latest brainstorm show podcast where they discuss sideboarding. That will probably help you more than us just listing cards that are good against certain decks.

2. Provide us with your MD - what constraints and opportunities for a well rounded sideboard does that imply? Are you playing snapcasters? Do you have sweepers MD? How is the mana base? All these things are important to know if we are going to be able to provide qualitative advice.

3. Consider if Miracles and Shardless is the only matchups where you want this 15th card to be relevant in. If you also would like another card against delver or combo, maybe a more versatile card like another REB effect is more valuable for example.

Start of there and then let us see what we can do. :)

I've downloaded the episode and will listen to it shortly. Thanks!

This is my deck:

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 True-Name Nemesis
3 Snapcaster Mage

4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
1 Counterspell

3 Lightning Bolt
4 Abrupt Decay

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2 Wasteland

4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Island

//SB
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Painful Truths?
2 Pithing Needle
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Garruk Relentless


As I stated in my previous post, this last slot needs to be high impact against Midrange BUG and Miracles as I have all the other important matchups covered in my sideboard mapping. Ideally not a red card as I only have 2 red duals which I am comfortable supporting Bolts with but don't want to go above 5 red cards postboard for matchups with Wastelands (I.E.: BUG plays 2-3 Wastelands and I want both 3 Bolts and 2 Pyro for this matchup). I don't bring in Pyroblast against Delver. All the other matchups where Pyroblast is relevant there are either no Wastelands coming my way or Bolt is irrelevant. Even with this said, perhaps a 3rd Pyroblast would be a good call!

Concerning sweepers I don't have any and don't believe I need them. I tried to squeeze in 1-2 Explosives for Elves, DnT, opposing TNN, and token-flooded boards but EE would compete with main Bolt and Decay, and side Edict, Needle, and Jitte which I all value more than EE. The same reasoning applies to Kolaghan's Command. I am comfortable countering, discarding, or racing TNN and I am confidant I can break through DnT and Elves without a sweeper. If I had a better matchup against Lands or Turbo Depths I would consider EE and Deluge in the board but as it is now, Needles and Edicts deserved a few copies each in my SB that I cannot afford to diversify. Besides, Edicts and Needles have their own respective strengths against Miracle, Sneak, Reanimator, Eldrazi, Infect, and Delver to name a few... Perhaps a I could lose a Jitte for a Deluge, I just haven't needed it so far and if I had to chose one to get, I usually pick the Jitte.

[Asthereal]

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Baleful Strix
2 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Predict

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
2 Counterspell
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Fatal Push
1 Dismember
1 Kolaghan's Command

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou

Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Fatal Push
1 Golgari Charm
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Thoughtseize
Isn't Predict really bad?
You generally need a cantrip to make it work properly, and if you do use cantrip + Predict, you still only net +1 card advantage, losing three mana. That's a huge tempo loss. You can cast a Baleful Strix for a mana less and still go +1 card advantage. Besides, it generally draws you two randoms. Impulse will get you the best card of the top 4, without needing a second card to make it work.

I personally consider Predict highly dubious even in Ponder Miracles, let alone in a deck like this. Am I wrong to think like this?

[btm10]

Isn't Predict really bad?
You generally need a cantrip to make it work properly, and if you do use cantrip + Predict, you still only net +1 card advantage, losing three mana. That's a huge tempo loss. You can cast a Baleful Strix for a mana less and still go +1 card advantage. Besides, it generally draws you two randoms. Impulse will get you the best card of the top 4, without needing a second card to make it work.

I personally consider Predict highly dubious even in Ponder Miracles, let alone in a deck like this. Am I wrong to think like this?

I cast it 3 or 4 times over the course of the event, each time for full value. It's not hard to set up with 7-8 cantrips + Snapcaster Mage, and between Delvers and the occasional blind Counterbalance you occasionally get to hit your opponent's deck. Don't forget that it was a staple in old UG Thresh lists - it's not hard to set up, and 2 mana at Instant speed as way lower risk than 3 mana at Sorcery speed for Painful Truths. I'm not convinced it's optional, but it's far from bad.

[Asthereal]

I cast it 3 or 4 times over the course of the event, each time for full value. It's not hard to set up with 7-8 cantrips + Snapcaster Mage, and between Delvers and the occasional blind Counterbalance you occasionally get to hit your opponent's deck. Don't forget that it was a staple in old UG Thresh lists - it's not hard to set up, and 2 mana at Instant speed as way lower risk than 3 mana at Sorcery speed for Painful Truths. I'm not convinced it's optional, but it's far from bad.
Yeah I played UGx Thresh back in '08. I felt Predict was the weakest card in that deck. :cool:
Maybe it's just personal preference. If you can make it work, and feel it's a solid addition, by all means. I was just wondering.

[btm10]

Yeah I played UGx Thresh back in '08. I felt Predict was the weakest card in that deck. :cool:
Maybe it's just personal preference. If you can make it work, and feel it's a solid addition, by all means. I was just wondering.

I'm going to test other cards in the slot just to see how they work, but I liked Predict a little more than Painful Truths. Fact or Fiction and Night's Whisper are also on the docket.

[Baum]

Recently, I toyed around with Friedman's list (http://www.gatheringmagic.com/benfriedman-02242017-60-card-shootout-legacy-sultai-garbage/) with multiple Snapcaster Mages and delve creatures. The main thing I changed is playing Tombstalker instead of Gurmag Angler. The Stalker is just sooo good right now, flying over TNN and other ground creatures.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Baleful Strix
3 Tombstalker

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 Thought Scour
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push

4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands

Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Thoughtseize
2 Pithing Needle
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm

Liliana, the Last Hope is surprisingly strong. I didn't expect much when I first tried out the card but it really pulled its weight. Besides filling the graveyard, getting back Snapcasters and Strixes is pretty good. The +1 is obviously good against decks like D&T or opposing Strixes, but shrinking down opposing Goyfs and Anglers to make them smaller than Tombstalker has come up more often than I expected. The ultimate comes up from time to time, but I usually just try to get as much value as possible with her +1 and -2. Getting a Lili on 7 loyalty decayed is just bad... Lili fills out a similar role as Kolaghan's Command in the recent 4c Midrange/Control builds.

Right now I'm not playing Leovold. The card is great but I just can't find the slots. The obvious card to cut would be Clique, but I want to have additional flash threats against combo decks, where it's dangerous to tap out for a creature.

I'm not sure if the red splash is worth the weaker mana base. I just wasn't confident about my Miracles matchup without the blasts. If they run a postboard configuration with Counterbalance, Blood Moon and Mentor, Decay and Counterspell are heavily taxed and I'd like to have the Blasts for Counterbalance etc.
Jace is also a beating. I haven't played against the 3-4 Predict builds so far, but you probably need Blasts to counter their card advantage. Red Blast should also give an edge against other BUG Midrange Builds and Sneak Show.
Against Storm, the current SB is rather weak, but the deck is not exactly common in the current meta.

Before the red splash, I played Invasive Surgery, Duress and Maelstrom Pulse in those slots. In this case, I'd probably play basic Island and Swamp intest of the red lands.

The deck is weak to Rest in Peace, but since D&T is the only deck that runs the card, it's a risk I'm willing to take. I also can't beat a resolved Blood Moon but whatever.

[LarsLeif]

I've downloaded the episode and will listen to it shortly. Thanks!

As I stated in my previous post, this last slot needs to be high impact against Midrange BUG and Miracles as I have all the other important matchups covered in my sideboard mapping. Ideally not a red card as I only have 2 red duals which I am comfortable supporting Bolts with but don't want to go above 5 red cards postboard for matchups with Wastelands (I.E.: BUG plays 2-3 Wastelands and I want both 3 Bolts and 2 Pyro for this matchup). I don't bring in Pyroblast against Delver. All the other matchups where Pyroblast is relevant there are either no Wastelands coming my way or Bolt is irrelevant. Even with this said, perhaps a 3rd Pyroblast would be a good call!

Concerning sweepers I don't have any and don't believe I need them. I tried to squeeze in 1-2 Explosives for Elves, DnT, opposing TNN, and token-flooded boards but EE would compete with main Bolt and Decay, and side Edict, Needle, and Jitte which I all value more than EE. The same reasoning applies to Kolaghan's Command. I am comfortable countering, discarding, or racing TNN and I am confidant I can break through DnT and Elves without a sweeper. If I had a better matchup against Lands or Turbo Depths I would consider EE and Deluge in the board but as it is now, Needles and Edicts deserved a few copies each in my SB that I cannot afford to diversify. Besides, Edicts and Needles have their own respective strengths against Miracle, Sneak, Reanimator, Eldrazi, Infect, and Delver to name a few... Perhaps a I could lose a Jitte for a Deluge, I just haven't needed it so far and if I had to chose one to get, I usually pick the Jitte.

Well as you say it's a bit mana-base dependent. If you have to choose between playing bolts or REBs I would prioritize rebs, Push is an acceptable replacement for Bolt. So if you only want 5 red spells I would play less bolts I think. You can also work in another red dual in order to be able to play more red spells. I'm not the biggest fan of garruk in the BUG Midrange mirrors anymore, he isn't as good vs strixes, TNN and leovold etc. Still reasonable I guess. I don't think you need dedicated sweepers either, but it's meta dependent :)

[Qweerios]

Well as you say it's a bit mana-base dependent. If you have to choose between playing bolts or REBs I would prioritize rebs, Push is an acceptable replacement for Bolt. So if you only want 5 red spells I would play less bolts I think. You can also work in another red dual in order to be able to play more red spells. I'm not the biggest fan of garruk in the BUG Midrange mirrors anymore, he isn't as good vs strixes, TNN and leovold etc. Still reasonable I guess. I don't think you need dedicated sweepers either, but it's meta dependent :)

Thanks for the reply!
I came to a similar conclusion as I ended up cutting Bolts entirely for 2 Push and a Jitte mainboard. I really don't see the point of Bolt anymore in this type of deck. Red main was clunky and made my fetching awkward so I opted for a BUG mainboard with a single Volcanic with a Mountain in my SB for 3 Pyroblasts and 2 Grim Lavamancers. The Grims have been putting in serious work against Shardless and Team America and I can only imagine what they will do in Elves and DnT... Also, going down to 20 lands and losing Wasteland entirely is better as I can easily use all my land drops (Jace with Blast backup, Ponder into Snap + Counter/Decay, etc.).

As for Garruk, most of the BUG mirrors I play are against Shardless so Nemesis is not an issue but shitting out enough cards to take over is often a factor (Grim and Garruk solve this). What would you play instead of Garruk? The only card I can think of that could replace him would be Painful Truths with the possibility of Snapcasting it back.

Any thoughts?

[LarsLeif]

I don't exactly play something "instead of Garruk", we have pretty different lists (and I'm brewing new ones constantly :p ). But if you want some input on what you can play instead the list I'm considering right now is this one:

CREATURES (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tombstalker

SORCERIES (4)
4 Ponder

INSTANTS (21)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
2 Thought Scour
2 Kolaghan’s Command

PLANESWALKERS (2)
2 Liliana, the Last Hope

LANDS (19)
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire

SIDEBOARD (15)
3 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Swan Song
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Forked Bolt
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Marsh Casualties

Otherwise you can also take a look a pelleniks list that he's been playing to solid performances online (more UB-control than 4c really):https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/591343#paper It also seems very good.

[theMonster]

Looks like the 4C Control list is all the rage right now. Are people eschewing TNNs and Leos solely because of all the Pyroblasts running around? I understand the merits of playing this against other blue fair decks and Miracles with all the card advantage, but how is it against things like DnT and Eldrazi? K-Command has got to be pretty good against them, yet stack interaction instead of discard must not be ideal in those matchups. Can those who are playing the 4C mega-Snap version talk about the non-blue matchups?

Thanks!

[A21ClownSalute]

Hey all! First time poster! Just wanted to share my 4c List and get some constructive criticism. A buddy of mine and I are planning on playing this at Worcester in a couple weeks. We have tested against many of the "decks to beat" this list feels very good against most of the field and matchups where it struggle become much more manageable after SB. The mana looks rugged but I have had minimal issues. I do think the board is no where from perfect but cards that have been all stars are the Jitte and Ashiok. Anyway, discuss post some criticism. Be hard on it if you need too, just want to read some thoughts.

Cheers all,

Clown

Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 True-Name Nemesis

Sorceries (7)
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
1 Painful Truths

Instants (18)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Daze
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Kolaghan’s Command
1 Murderous Cut
1 Spell Pierce

Planeswalkers (1)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (20)
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Island


Sideboard 15)
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Fatal Push
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Thoughtseize
1 Marsh Causalties
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Life from the Loam
1 Umezawas Jitte

[theMonster]

Just played against someone on Cockatrice who was running what he said was Tomas Mar's latest 4C control iteration with two Wastelands, a Lili, at least one Leovold, Hymn, K-Command, a Bolt/Push/Decay mix, and a smattering of Strix and Snapcasters. I didn't see any Jaces or TNNs. Anyone know any more about this list? It was pretty powerful.

[LarsLeif]

Tomas Mar's latest deck can be found here: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/learning-4c-czech-pile-from-the-master/

I don't think it looks that tuned honestly, but he has a particular deck building style.

Regarding the 4c Mega Snapcaster builds I think that the DnT matchup is fine even without the TNNs. If you play the "true" 4c version your mana base is worse, but you should win almost all games you get to cast your spells in. The "UB" 4c deck has better mana but fewer maindeck answers to Crusader etc. But it has a lot of SB dedicated to the deck so I think it is fine vs DnT overall.

I think the meta game sort of adapted quite rapidly to TNN, so I don't see the appeal in it as much as I did a few weeks ago.

[theMonster]

Tomas Mar's latest deck can be found here: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/learning-4c-czech-pile-from-the-master/

I don't think it looks that tuned honestly, but he has a particular deck building style.

Regarding the 4c Mega Snapcaster builds I think that the DnT matchup is fine even without the TNNs. If you play the "true" 4c version your mana base is worse, but you should win almost all games you get to cast your spells in. The "UB" 4c deck has better mana but fewer maindeck answers to Crusader etc. But it has a lot of SB dedicated to the deck so I think it is fine vs DnT overall.

I think the meta game sort of adapted quite rapidly to TNN, so I don't see the appeal in it as much as I did a few weeks ago.

Thanks for the link. I'd agree that it's an interesting list, and judging from his own words, he's in the process of tuning everything. I'm sure there's a method to the madness and would be curious to hear more from him about his choices and where he sees the metagame.

Regarding TNN, I agree that Pyroblast is omnipresent now, lessening the appeal of a card like TNN (and even Leovold). This makes me want to play non-blue threats like Tombstalker, but they end up being bad against all the Strix running around. I'm considering a white splash for some number of Lingering Souls and sideboard cards like Zealous Persecution, Containment Priest, Disenchant, etc., to both get around the uptick in 1-for-1 removal and Pyroblast. In that case I'd play a Jitte or two somewhere in the 75. Thoughts on that? It's slow and a little weak to Deathrite and doesn't pitch to Force - believe me, I'm aware it's a tough sell - but I've been thinking about it. Pyroblast is strong in the mirror, which is probably the biggest reason not to adopt white if going 4C. But I was wondering if, instead of attacking blue decks on the stack, I could attack them on the board more with white cards.

[LarsLeif]

White has some powerful cards for sure, but it is very hard to turn down REBS with 4 snapcaster mage. They are live against like 75% of the field (all blue decks essentially).

I sometimes miss a good threat to put on pressure in the early game though.

[btm10]

White has some powerful cards for sure, but it is very hard to turn down REBS with 4 snapcaster mage. They are live against like 75% of the field (all blue decks essentially).

I sometimes miss a good threat to put on pressure in the early game though.

I don't hate Tarmogoyf unless you're seeing a lot of the mirror, in which case it's pretty bad.

[LarsLeif]

Yeah I like goyf as well, the thing is though that one of the main draws to this deck is that it doesn't play any "vanilla-esque" creatures that just dies to removal without generating value. You basically don't have to play goyf. But that also means you aren't playing goyf which is worse in a smaller subset of matchups like against Burn, 12p, Eldrazi etc. :p

[btm10]

Yeah I like goyf as well, the thing is though that one of the main draws to this deck is that it doesn't play any "vanilla-esque" creatures that just dies to removal without generating value. You basically don't have to play goyf. But that also means you aren't playing goyf which is worse in a smaller subset of matchups like against Burn, 12p, Eldrazi etc. :p

Yeah, Goyf is definitely medium-to-bad against a lot of stuff right now, but being able to close games quickly (and/or have a threat that doesn't die to Punishing Fire) is also important. Angler and Tombstalker were both fine when I tried them, though they're worse against opposing Anglers and Eldrazi.

[theMonster]

Yeah, Goyf is definitely medium-to-bad against a lot of stuff right now, but being able to close games quickly (and/or have a threat that doesn't die to Punishing Fire) is also important. Angler and Tombstalker were both fine when I tried them, though they're worse against opposing Anglers and Eldrazi.

I've been exploring threat suites, too, and tried this one last night at FNM:

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Tombstalker

1 Bitterblossom

1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// sideboard //

1 Sylvan Library
1 Vendilion Clique

My weekly meta has more DnT and less Pyroblast than average, so I'm still on the TNN/Leo plan. Since I'm already playing maindeck Jitte, I wanted to see how Bitterblossom performed. To my surprise, it was quite good against that room. I boarded it out against MUD and Noble Duke, but it demanded a Flickerwisp and then a Council's Judgment against DnT and ground out my Grixis Control opponent. In a meta that's playing way more Strix and trying to Snap-Push people out of the game, I think using life as a resource and generating some slow value might be decent. Any thoughts on that?

Thanks.

[theMonster]

I have the oddest tournament report ever. I spiked a 20-man GPT today where I had to face Thalia five times en route to victory: three DnT in the Swiss, then double-drew into the #1 seed; Eldrazi-Taxes in the quarters, my round 2 DnT opponent in the semis, and then ... Burn in the finals. I had a feeling I'd be playing against DnT at some point, but almost every round?! Here's what I registered:

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Baleful Strix
1 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Tombstalker

1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Wasteland

// sideboard //

2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
1 Duress
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Collective Brutality
1 Dread of Night
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Sylvan Library

Goyf was actually pretty good today, though I don't expect that to be the case in a normal metagame (or even one with this much Mother of Runes). The basic Forest over the third Wasteland was an experiment, and there were times where it was terrible and others when it made certain starting Deathrite hands keepable. I liked being able to, say, fetch one basic and then get two off-colored duals (Forest + double Sea happened a decent amount). But I flooded out a touch more than I wanted, so I'm considering cutting the Forest for a third Ponder. I think that would both mitigate flood and dig for action/lands when needed. Plus I could use another proactive turn 1 play. I also want to turn one Misty into a Verdant Catacombs. I want to fetch Swamp on turn 1 more than I do Island, and that switch would help.

The Dread of Night and Collective Brutality were all reactions to recent metagame shifts in L.A., and I'm glad I had them. But feel free to turn those slots into whatever you want if you're playing TNNs. The games were pretty interesting, and I'll comment on them if people think it would be helpful. But I just wanted to post this and say that TNN is still pretty good in certain metas ... like my quintuple white weenie gauntlet.

[FZA]

SCG just did a deck tech on Jim Davis's BUG brew. I don't have the full list but it was pretty spicy.


3 Leovolds
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Chrome Mox
1 SB Mongoose (good GSZ target vs Miracles)

[RobNC]

Here it is: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/sultai_control_with_jim_davis.html

[A21ClownSalute]

Hey all! Not much action happening in the threads let's keep it alive. I ended up going to Worcester over the weekend where I ended up with a lowsy record of 5-4. Did make it on camera though(where I played foolishly and lost to Emma Handy) The list I played was the one from a few posts ago with some minor tweaks. I did learn a lot at the tournament After the weekend and talking to some people about the deck I came up with the following version, complete with a SB guide. As always critique and discuss.

Cheers,
Clown

//Creatures (13)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis

//Sorceries (7)
4 Ponder
1 Nights Whisper
2 Thoughtseize

//Instants (17)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Kolaghan’s Command
1 Counterspell
1 Fatal Push
1 Spell Snare

//Artifacts (1)
1 Engineered Explosives

//Planeswalkers (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Lands (20)
1 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp


//Sideboard (15)
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Marsh Causalties
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Fatal Push

Sideboard Guide:

Miracles
IN:
1 Vendilion Clique,
2 Flusterstorm,
1 Invasive Surgery,
1 Grim Lavamancer,
2 Pyroblast,
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest,
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
OUT:
4 Baleful Strix,
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Fatal Push,
2 Lightning Bolt

Grixis Delver
IN:
1 Fatal Push,
1 Grim Lavamancer,
2 Pyroblast,
1 Vendilion Clique,
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest,
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
OUT:
4 Force of Will,
1 Spell Snare,
2 Thoughtseize

Death and Taxes
IN:
1 Fatal Push,
1 Grim Lavamancer,
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Leovold, Emissary of Treast
1 Liliana, The Last Hope
OUT:
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
1 Spell Snare
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sneak and Show
IN:
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Flusterstorm
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Pyroblast
OUT:
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Fatal Push
1 Spell Snare
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 Baleful Strix

Lands
IN:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Vendilion Clique
OUT:
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Fatal Push
2 Thoughtseize
1 Spell Snare
1 Force of Will

Storm
IN:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Grim Lavamancer
OUT:
1 Fatal Push
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Spell Snare
4 Baleful Strix

Eldrazi Stompy
IN:
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Fatal Push
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Surgical Extraction
OUT:
1 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell

Reanimator
IN:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Invasive Surgery
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
OUT:
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Spell Snare
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Fatal Push
2 Baleful Strix
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Engineered Explosives

Elves
IN:
1 Fatal Push
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Leovold Emisaary of Trest
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Vendilion Clique
OUT:
1 Spell Snare
4 Baleful Strix
1 Force of Will

BUG Variants//Mirror
IN:
1 Fatal Push
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Pyroblast
OUT:
1 Baleful Strix
2 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
1 Engineered Explosives

Burn
IN:
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Fatal Push
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
OUT:
2 Thoughtseize
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Baleful Strix

[lavafrogg]

Is anyone working on the Davis list?

[talpa]

Does anyone know if Jim Davis is active on this forum?
Can anyone make a quick presentation of him for the ones who doesn't know who he is? I mean, I made a very quick search on google and I saw some results and some articles written by him, is he a professional? is he a regular of legacy in particular?

I tested two zeniths months ago but I was unsatisfied and let them go after just a couple of nights.
I am very interested in Davis build but I don't know what to think about the moxens. Sure, they are mana accelerator number 8 and 9; sure, they let you solve blood moon problems. But they are also always card disadvantage; also, almost all the other cards in the deck are bombs, which means I don't want to "pitch" them to the mox.

I would be very happy if he could share with us his thoughts...

[Whit3boy316]

Quick question everyone, why isn't tnn being played. I love me some leovold but I feel like tnn is just great also. I would love to find some room for him in the deck

[A21ClownSalute]

Quick question everyone, why isn't tnn being played. I love me some leovold but I feel like tnn is just great also. I would love to find some room for him in the deck

I've been advocating TNN forever. It helps the decks clock a lot and most decks just can't beat a resolved one game one. Leovold is good and in comes in a lot of matchups but the clock matters a little more. You can look at my list I posted above. It's pretty fine tuned so give it a shot. Made the SB guide too. The deck is very good.

[theMonster]

I've been advocating TNN forever. It helps the decks clock a lot and most decks just can't beat a resolved one game one. Leovold is good and in comes in a lot of matchups but the clock matters a little more. You can look at my list I posted above. It's pretty fine tuned so give it a shot. Made the SB guide too. The deck is very good.

+1 this. TNN helps shore up some of the non-blue matchups like Eldrazi and DnT and can pair well with Jitte against the creature decks. I've been on something similar for a while and am still exploring the archetype, though I play Hymns and three TNNs + Jitte maindeck.

[Baum]

I’m somewhat torn between TNN and Tombstalker. Tombstalker has been great in all the BUG “mirrors” against Control, Aluren, Food Chain and Shardless as long as I can keep Jace off the table. It’s also ok against D&T I think, as long as I can discard or counter a possible StP. It’s nice against Delver, because 2 mana are easier than 3 mana and it blocks Delvers all day.

The thing is, it’s really awful against Miracles and basically forces me to run a couple of Thought Scour, which IS a bad card. With 7 creatures that rely on the graveyard, the deck also becomes really soft to Rest in Peace.

TNN is better against StP decks and would open up the Thought Scour slots. I’m just not sure the deck wants even more CMC 3… I also really enjoy the possibility to close the game out fast with a couple of flying 5/5s.

My list for reference: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=22804&iddeck=176384 (I’m still changing around the SB and right now I’m trying out 2 basics)
I managed to get this lone 5:0, one 4:1 and a couple of 3:2s. Most losses came from Burn, Blood Moon decks and various Delver lists with Stifle. The list feels strong but I don’t think it’s quite there yet.

In general I think these kind of decks should play a couple of heavy hitters, be it Tombstalker or TNN. Getting all the value with Leovold, Snapcaster and Strix is nice, but sometimes you just have to get them dead.

Any thoughts?

[A21ClownSalute]

Let's keep this thread alive!

What do we think becomes of 4c variants after the miracles ban?

[H]

Let's keep this thread alive!

What do we think becomes of 4c variants after the miracles ban?

It doesn't invalidate having Red for K. Command and 'Blasts, those are still good cards.

It does possibly mean that some form of Stifle is more popular, a la RUG Delver, so you might get punished for the mana more often.

It probably means that the "goodness" of running 4 colors is even more meta-dependent.

[Thedougler]

Hey guys, having trouble figuring out exactly which BUG thread I should be posting in with my decklist, but hoping I could get some feedback/discussion on my current BUG build, based on the Reid Duke style deck, I live in an area that was a very big miracles meta, so I'm going into a pretty unknown field this week. I haven't built a sideboard yet, looking for suggestions.

Creature: 16

4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Noble Hierarch
2x Scavenging Ooze (Maybe Baleful Strix?)
4x True-Name Nemesis
2x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1x Vendilion Clique

Non-Creature: 24

4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder
2x Stifle
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Sylvan Library
2x Fatal Push
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Land: 20

4x Misty Rainforest
3x Verdant Catacombs
2x Polluted Delta
1x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
4x Wasteland
1x Island
1x Forest

[kkoie]

Hey guys, having trouble figuring out exactly which BUG thread I should be posting in with my decklist, but hoping I could get some feedback/discussion on my current BUG build, based on the Reid Duke style deck, I live in an area that was a very big miracles meta, so I'm going into a pretty unknown field this week. I haven't built a sideboard yet, looking for suggestions.

Well this is the list I will be running this Friday. My local meta has lots of combo decks, and had a couple of miracle players. I expect them to either switch to combo or blade decks, so I'm keeping that in mind.

Creature: 14

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Noble Hierarch
4x True-Name Nemesis
2x Leovold, Emissary of Trest

Non-Creature: 25

4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Brainstorm
2x Ponder
3x Thoughtseize
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Sylvan Library
1x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Murderous Cut (I kept cut over push because some of the aggro decks locally like to run fatties, plus I like that this kills Eidolon without 2 damange)

Land: 21

4x Misty Rainforest
2x Verdant Catacombs
4x Polluted Delta
1x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
3x Wasteland
1x Island
1x Forest

Sideboard: 15
2x Faerie Macabre (there is for a Br Reanimator deck, and each time he had Annex in hand I lost, so I'm trying these this week)
2x Flusterstorm
1x Pithing Needle
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Thoughtseize
1x Chill (there are usually 1-3 burn decks and occasionally mono-red sneak attach, so that's why I'm running chill, otherwise it would be Mindbreak Trap #2)
1x Marsh Casualties (this was Dread of Night, but with Miracles gone all it hits is death and taxes, Casualties will also be good against elves)
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Engineered Plague
1x Krosan Grip (this was abrupt decay #4. I expect an uptick of blood moon locally and blade decks)
1x Mindbreak Trap
2x Submerge (along with elves, there are usually 1-2 land decks locally)

Before the recent changes, I had 1x Nihil Spellbomb, 1x Painful Truths, similar to Reid's list. Both worked well.

[Thedougler]

Do you guys think it is too greedy to try to run 3 basic lands? I run forest/island now, but was thinking of cutting a 4th wasteland for a swamp. My list is 2 posts above, though I removed Stifles and Gurmag Angler for 3x Thoughtsieze.

[kkoie]

Do you guys think it is too greedy to try to run 3 basic lands? I run forest/island now, but was thinking of cutting a 4th wasteland for a swamp. My list is 2 posts above, though I removed Stifles and Gurmag Angler for 3x Thoughtsieze.

Well, I for one am a big proponent of lots of basics. But in the end, while looking at this deck with a friend, we both agreed that 2 basics seemed to be just enough. With the number of fetches and wastelands the deck runs, getting black mana under hate isn't as hard as you would expect, so long as you remember to be patient with when you activate DRS for black, while suffering under blood moon or other land hate. I'm probably pushing it by trying out Marsh Casualties this evening, but most decks I want it for, are not going to be playing anything that turns off my black mana completely.

[useL]

I gotta ask.

If I play 4c control with red splash, where am I supposed to write my posts? Is this the thread? Do we need a new primer? Can anyone point me in the right direction?

[H]

I gotta ask.

If I play 4c control with red splash, where am I supposed to write my posts? Is this the thread? Do we need a new primer? Can anyone point me in the right direction?

I'd say here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?31535-Czech-Pile-(UBGr-Control)/).

[Ezechiel2517]

Just played against someone on Cockatrice who was running what he said was Tomas Mar's latest 4C control iteration with two Wastelands, a Lili, at least one Leovold, Hymn, K-Command, a Bolt/Push/Decay mix, and a smattering of Strix and Snapcasters. I didn't see any Jaces or TNNs. Anyone know any more about this list? It was pretty powerful.


Hi :D

[Drake0525]

Hi all,

I recently acquired a set of Underground Sea, and am now seriously considering BUG as a possible deck. I have previously piloted Canadian Threshold and RG Lands. I have a question for anyone familiar with the archetype.

It looks like the Delver variant of BUG has fallen out of favor, is that accurate?

[tescrin]

Do you guys think it is too greedy to try to run 3 basic lands? I run forest/island now, but was thinking of cutting a 4th wasteland for a swamp. My list is 2 posts above, though I removed Stifles and Gurmag Angler for 3x Thoughtsieze.

Just for my own OCD/sanity/pedantry:

Playing basics is the antithesis of "greedy." Greedy literally means things like splashing the 4th (or even a 3rd) color, having UU next to WW and BB or something. Shardless BUG was exceptionally greedy because it had UB, UG, GB, BB, and UU; meaning it could barely afford a single forest most of the time.

Basics are almost a direct measurement of how not-greedy you are. Being greedy is saying "I know this could totally screw me on colors but if I just cut *one* more basic, I can probably make it work." Delver decks are also notoriously greedy. "How few lands can I run, shaving all of my basics, and maxing wastelands, so that I draw live as often as possible."

"Greedy" decks are punished by Back to Basics, Blood Moon/Magus, Wasteland, Ghost Quarter, Stifle, and similar. The less "greedy" you are, the less those cards will punish you, but the more you have to be conservative on the mana costs of cards you're running.

Greed is a metric of your lands : difficulty-casting-things ratio. Lands, for example, is also greedy to a degree, because with a single basic Forest, it's banking on having Crop or fetches get it in matches that matter; but it will *guaranteed* lose to a T1 blood moon [though it can kill magus..]

[halahel]

I'm also curious about the current state of BUG midrange/control. It doesn't seem to be putting up results. Any thoughts on its place in the current meta?

[anwei]

Greed is a metric of your lands : difficulty-casting-things ratio.

This (fine) definition shows the reason you're wrong: basics make things harder to cast because they give you less versatility and increase the odds that you draw color-screwed.

I'd say it's hard to use "greedy" to describe any manabase:
Running more duals makes it easier to cast your spells if you don't see hate, at the risk of Wasteland/Blood Moon.
Running more basics makes it harder to cast your spells if you don't see hate, for more security against nonbasic hate.
And this doesn't consider Port, which is always surprisingly punishing against basics.

It's more true to say that a spell configuration is more or less greedy in the color requirements involved. And even then, you're making trade-offs. Is cutting Leovold for Eternal Scourge less greedy because Scourge is easier to cast? Sort of, but you're being greedy toward castability at the expense of power.

[tescrin]

This (fine) definition shows the reason you're wrong: basics make things harder to cast because they give you less versatility and increase the odds that you draw color-screwed.

It's more true to say that a spell configuration is more or less greedy in the color requirements involved. And even then, you're making trade-offs. Is cutting Leovold for Eternal Scourge less greedy because Scourge is easier to cast? Sort of, but you're being greedy toward castability at the expense of power.

After posting and driving to work, I *knew* someone would post a response like this. The greed here isn't in the basic land, it's in the spell's inability to be casted.

Yes, Eternal Scourge *is* less greedy than Leo. That's the point. You can make your *mana base more greedy* to compensate the greedy choices in the deck, but you're still playing difficult to cast cards, which is "greed." Greed doesn't mean bad; it just means weak to a certain set of card effects.

Similarly, someone can play 17 lands weak to wasteland and twelve 3-drops and five 4-drops. Probably won't work, but functionally they will occasionally get the exact same draws they would have with 23 lands; except they have 6 more live cards. The majority of the time they will, however, will be lacking the lands to carry their top-heavy deck along. This is greed. Playing powerful cards in place of the manabase that it requires to support them.

You could point out it's possible to make a greedy deck like 19 mountains, 46 red/colorless spells, 4 fatal push, and a swamp; but the greed here is the Fatal Push. The swamp won't screw him unless all of his spells lack colorless symbols (in which those cards are greedy additions if you're mixing colors.) Additionally, some of his draws will see the perfect combination of Push, Swamp, other stuff; and boy it'll feel nice when it does.


______
The reason I'm bringing it up is that confusing that term muddies the waters of what many decks are often claiming to do. A Blood Moon punishes greedy decks. Period. Who dies to it? Decks without basics. This is where the definition comes from. Wasteland punishes decks the more greedy they are. When you waste a shardless player off of Trop and they instead have USea Wasteland with a Strix, Agent, and Lily in hand; what happened? They got greedy.

It's even the term used for "greedy" keeps. Have 1 land but a fist of *really* good synergistic spells? You could get lucky and rip the correct land off the top, or you could brainlock yourself looking for it. That is a greedy keep. Why? Because you can't cast your stuff. It's not the basic land's fault that you chose to have TNN, Liliana, Abrupt Decay, and Strix in a deck. It's the "greed" of all the raw power of mixing those cards, while realizing you will often lose to a well placed Wasteland, or a badly timed Back to Basics.

This isn't a judgement of condemnation for putting the good stuff together, but rather a correction of the term and how it's used.


Reminder: I am well aware that this is utterly pedantic.

[Ghost888]

Hi everyone,

New to The Source and first time post. Just wondering what has happened to this thread.

Are people still playing Sultai Midrange/Control or has everyone now playing 4c Czech Pile?
If you still playing Sultai Midrange/Control,and have you updated your decklists?

Would like to keep this thread going.

[Joe Eigo]

Hi everyone,

New to The Source and first time post. Just wondering what has happened to this thread.

Are people still playing Sultai Midrange/Control or has everyone now playing 4c Czech Pile?
If you still playing Sultai Midrange/Control,and have you updated your decklists?

Would like to keep this thread going.

Patrick Richter took this deck to the recent MKM Hamburg and had some success. Saw some people already copying the deck. (Here you can find it: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=16936&d=304758&f=LE) I played a similar version on the MKM Hamburg and it felt very strong in all matchups i faced. Much removal and TNNs against the fairer decks. And dedicated hate for the unfairer matchups. Nihil Spellbomb and Surgical are also some good help against annoying Snapcaster Mages. Why this over Czech Pile ? Personally i find it to be more stable with just 3 Colors and it tends to be a little bit faster.

I think my lack of practice with the deck (last minute switch from Reanimator) were the main issue of my medicore overall result. I find especially the addition of Strix tend to give the deck a stronger early game against the various delver style decks and help to protect you and your Jaces.

The list i would play now would be something like this:

3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

21

3 Baleful Strix
2 Noble Hierarch
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4 True-Name Nemesis
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Tasigur The Golden Fang

16

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
3 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay

1 Umezawas Jitte

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

24

SB
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Flusterstorm
1 Umezawas Jitte
2 Marsh Casualties
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Engineered Playgue
1 Dread of Night
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sylvan Library

[danyul]

Hi everyone,

New to The Source and first time post. Just wondering what has happened to this thread.

Are people still playing Sultai Midrange/Control or has everyone now playing 4c Czech Pile?
If you still playing Sultai Midrange/Control,and have you updated your decklists?

Would like to keep this thread going.

I've been testing iterations of BUG Control all by my lonesome. I used to come to this thread to check out ideas but it seems like people are mostly playing Noble BUG so lots of those principles didn't apply to what I was doing.

If you want to check out a list, here's something I Top 8'd a 72 player 1k with a few months back. I've been making tweaks and changes to the ideas in that list every week so my current build is very different. I'm not sure if these ideas are close enough to "Team America" for them to be posted here but in these colors, it feels like you can really just smoosh a bunch of good cards together and do okay.

I was mostly trying to build a planeswalker control deck with a varied number of permanent types to play better with an endgame fatty Goyf or SB To The Slaughter/Invasive Surgery. I now have Gurmag Anglers in place of Goyf now since those play better vs Fatal Push + with Pernicious Deed/Toxic Deluge.

4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Forest
3 Wasteland
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Brainstorm
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
4 Ponder
1 Life from the Loam
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

SB: 1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Invasive Surgery
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 To the Slaughter
SB: 1 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge

What kind of lists are y'all messing around with?

[Ghost888]

Thanks Joe Egio and Danyul. I have commented below my decklist.
The list I have been playing was initially the list Reid Duke won with at Louisville but with the fatal push.

Decklist:
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
21 Lands

2 Baleful Strix
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 True-Name Nemesis
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gurmag Angler
15 Creatures

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawas Jitte
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
24 Spells

SB
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
2 Mindbreak trap
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Dread of Night
1 Pithing Needle
1 Thoughtseize
1 Fatal Push
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Painful Truths
1 Umezawas Jitte

Joe Egio, I like Tasigur The Golden Fang but play Gurmag Angler. For the following reason:
1) Tasigur can get bounced by Karakas
2) Wouldn’t think we can activate Tasigur’s ability often enough
3) The extra power can trade with Reality Smasher

I have never tested with it, how has it been for you? I could be convinced to change.

Danyul, I like your thoughts. Before I got my duals and Reid won Louisville. I was thinking of making a Nic Fit. Play planeswalkers and rest with deeds. It is even better with the new legendary rule for planeswalkers.
For some extra ideas check out.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28548-Primer-Deck-Nic-Fit

My thoughts on the deck:
Thinking of cutting more nobles for baleful strix as drawing nobles late game they are not impressive. Also after Reid won, no more miracles and 4C Czech Pile, I find there is more removal and toxic deluge around.
I understand the idea of Reid’s deck get a turn 3 threat out early and attack but right now, I think baleful strix is better as it replaces itself.

Thinking of cutting a Jace to make the deck quicker but not sure what to play.

I do like 4C Czech Pile, but don’t think I will invest in extra the duals yet. I sometimes find Sultai is mana intensive especially when they kill a deathrite or noble then wasteland you, therefore agree that 4C Czech Pile is even more mana greedy which makes Sultai better

Any advice on changes to make on the decklist?
What do you feel are good and bad match ups?
How do we sideboard strategies?
My store has a variety of Decks (Lands, Elves, Death and Taxes, Portent Miracles, 4c loam, 4c czech pile, grixis delver and storm)

[Manipulato]

Hey guys,
so after playing Moon Walker Stompy for several months I'm back in black and gettin back into the goodstuff BUG world.

After seeing Pascal Richter & Marius Hausmann doing good work with this pile I just wanted to bring new life into this thread because the deck is quite popular here in europe and probably the best BUG shell available atm.

Here's Pascal Richter's Top 4 list of mkm Hamburg which has not changed till now.

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=16936&d=304758&f=LE

I played a quite similar list back in February before my five month break but I stoped playing it because Food Chain looked to sweet.

I'm playing a small tournament tomorrow and will let you guys know how it went for me.

This will be the list tomorrow:

Maindeck:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember

4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Swamp


SIDEBOARD
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Marsh Casualties
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Krosan Grip
1 Liliana the last Hope
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Thoughtseize

FoW Count 24

I made two small changes, -1 Push +1 Dismember because I know some Eldrazis will be there and -1 Flusterstorm -1 Hydroblast +2 Vendilion Clique because I know that combo will be a factor as well.

Greetings

[Manipulato]

Hey guys, short report as promised. BUG Midrange placed 1st and 3rd today ^^ 16 guys total.

Round 1: Esper Reanimator 2:0

Round 2: Burn 2:1

Round 3: ID (BUG mirror vs Marius Hausmann, we did not want to play the 70 card mirror)

Round 4: ID (NicFit Would have won 2:1)

Quarterfinals: ANT 2:1

Semifinals: Miracles 0:2 (2 Back to basics & Jace TMS did some work here, it´s super hard to get threw all the counters and Terminus is a solid answer to TNN. The discard is also not that great vs them because they just have a million cantrips + Jace to draw them out of the situations)

3rd place finish and picked up 1 Cavern of Souls & 1 Flooded Strand with 60€ value.

Top 4 list´s can be found here http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=17560&d=308793&f=LE

Decklist:
15 Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

24 Spells
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember

4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

21 Lands
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Swamp

SIDEBOARD
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Marsh Casualties
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Krosan Grip
1 Liliana the last Hope
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Thoughtseize

Clique did not dissapoint me and won me G2 vs ANT and was just a solid card vs NicFit & Miracles.

Dismember was not relevant because I did not face any creature based MU's especially no Eldrazi or Angler deck (Multiple in the room). Fatal Push would have been also irrelevant...

I really want the 3rd Flusterstorm in the SB because its just so good, I have to find room for it somewhere.

Mixing UU & BB spells in the MD can be a bit difficult from time to time but Hymn is just to good at the moment not to play.

[robx13]

Hi all,

Longtime lurker, first-time poster.

Took the following Sultai list to a local event last week. It’s somewhere between Sultai Delver (which I've been playing for the last ~5 months) and Grupp's MKM Barcelona "Sultai Leovold" list:

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Baleful Strix
3x True-Name Nemesis
1x Snapcaster Mage
1x Leovold, Emissary Of Trest
1x Tombstalker
(14)

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Force Of Will
3x Fatal Push
2x Daze
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Hymn To Tourach
2x Thoughtseize
(23)

1x Liliana, The Last Hope
1x Jace, The Mind Sculptor
(2)

1x Sylvan Library
(1)

4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
2x Verdant Catacombs
3x Underground Sea
1x Tropical Island
1x Bayou
1x Island
1x Swamp
3x Wasteland
(20)

SB:

1x Diabolic Edict
1x Far // Away
1x Hydroblast
2x Hymn To Tourach
1x Invasive Surgery
1x Life From The Loam
2x Marsh Casualties
1x Painful Truths
1x Pithing Needle
1x Spell Pierce
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Toxic Deluge
(15)

The main quirk to the list would be the 2 maindeck copies of Daze. It seems that the main reason to play straight Sultai over 4C is in order to access 3+ Wastelands on top of rock-solid mana. The inclusion of Daze is attempt to further leverage Wastelands against greedy midrange decks, and also a way to help shore up matchups against the faster end of the format; Delver, ANT, Reanimator etc. Compared to 4C, you lose out on the absurd grinding capability of Snapcaster Mage + Kommand, but TNN/Tombstalker and the walkers are usually still good enough to go over the top of most of the format. The sideboard is constructed in such a way that it's full of generically useful cards so there are plenty of options for when the Dazes are bad. Thoroughly recommend giving it a spin in this shell over some of the frequently surplus top end such as the second Jace and Snapcasters that most lists play, definitely adds a different dimension to the deck and I can only assume makes it a lot harder to play against.

Anyway, went a thoroughly mediocre 2-2 at the event, with wins against Lands (2-0) and Death & Taxes (2-0), losses to Grixis Delver (0-2) and Turbo Depths (0-2). Despite the result, the deck felt pretty good.

Naturally, some tweaks made to the main deck:

-1x Fatal Push (I’ve generally run 2 in my Sultai lists since this it was printed and been happy with it. It’s a great answer to DRS, Delver and Thalia but beyond that often a liability)
-1x Thoughtseize
+1x Diabolic Edict (sided these in every game, it would have been an out in each of the 4 games lost. Marit Lage in particular is very popular in my meta.)
+1x Inquisition Of Kozilek (I feel it would be very useful to be able to keep a discard spell in against Grixis Delver, where the information assymetry makes the matchup really difficult to play against Dazes and Stifles. Very much open to this being wrong but I notice Tomas Mar was high on this card in his Barcelona 4C list.)

and to the sideboard:

-1x Diabolic Edict (moved to main)
+1x Counterspell (powerful, generic answer whose value goes up in slower post-board games. Alternatively, could be a Vendilion Clique or an extra Snapcaster Mage).

Since the changes, found the time for 6 matches on Xmage and an undefeated 6-0, against UW Stoneblade (2-0), Czech Pile (2-0), Temur Delver (2-1), Burn (2-1), and a couple of other decks I unfortunately don’t remember though I'm certain they were tier strategies. Needless to say very happy with the changes so far, and will be running the deck back at the local tonight with a report to follow.

Any comments or critique on card choices more than welcome.

Cheers!

[robx13]

will be running the deck back at the local tonight with a report to follow.

3-1 tonight, played pretty badly in spots and ran quite lucky, such is life:

R1 2-0 > Bg Pox (splashing Loam & Decay) - easy matchup honestly, can't remember losing a game to a Pox deck in a list with 4x Baleful Strix. Beat a T1 Smallpox to wipe my board of DRS and Sea in G1, quite comfortably.
R2 0-2 < Miracles (Whitefaces, member on here) - Tough matchup, really you're relying on your opponent making mistakes. G1 Liliana TLH gave me a chance but he found an Unexpectedly for it. G2 handily outplayed. We both mulled and I aggressively tried to Force through a T3 Hymn = no Force for the follow-up Jace that remained in his hand.
R3 2-0 > Abzan Deathblade - Baleful Strix > Tarmogoyf.
R4 2-1 > Deathrite Goblins - played the back end of G2 and G3 total shit, mostly down to inexperience, not respecting Warchief and not playing around all possible Matron targets. Pondered into a Marsh Casualties for a somewhat undeserved G3 win however.

The list feels fantastic and no changes to make right now. A few notes:

- Standout cards were Lili TLH which is just fantastic and dominated the Deathblade matchup, Sylvan Library (very few Decays at the moment), and Painful Truths out of the board. Again I think giving up on Kommand to play straight Sultai is fine when there are still these excellent options available for grinding - Painful Truths in particular strikes me as highly underrated and I'd like to try a second copy at some point, so hard to lose after resolving it.
- Daze was notable through its absence in several spots where it would have been game-winning, though of course it helps that nobody plays around it out of a Baleful Strix deck. At no point was i unhappy to have drawn one and there were a number of spots where I wished to have one in hand.
- The removal suite feels good. 5 feels on the low side for this type of deck but I didn't miss the extra Fatal Push even in the relevant matchups, the 3 sweepers post board more than make up for it.

Plan on running it back once more next week.

[btm10]

Any thoughts on Bob atm? I guess he's better in lists with Goyf as well so you have a critical mass of kill-on-sight threats.

[btm10]

I top 8'ed the Quest for Power event in Baltimore yesterday, going 5-0-2 in the Swiss beating Lands, Deathblade, Grixis Delver, BUG Delver, and Food Chain then double-drawing into top 8. I ran afoul of my D&T opponent's four maindeck Mirran Crusaders in games 2 and 3 of my top 8 match, but got an FBB Sea with the credit. Not a bad run.

List was:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 True-Name Nemesis
3 Baleful Strix
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
3 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Ponder

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island

Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Flusterstorm
1 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
1 Sylvan Library
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Countersquall
1 Vendilion Clique

There are a couple of small changes I'd consider (cutting a Goyf for a Tombstalker, changing the Bayou/Trop split, working a Jitte into the 75, moving Hymns to the main, adding a third Decay) but the deck felt great. Unfortunately, I didn't get to test Bob.

[mike1987]

Hey guys, short report as promised. BUG Midrange placed 1st and 3rd today ^^ 16 guys total.

Round 1: Esper Reanimator 2:0

Round 2: Burn 2:1

Round 3: ID (BUG mirror vs Marius Hausmann, we did not want to play the 70 card mirror)

Round 4: ID (NicFit Would have won 2:1)

Quarterfinals: ANT 2:1

Semifinals: Miracles 0:2 (2 Back to basics & Jace TMS did some work here, it´s super hard to get threw all the counters and Terminus is a solid answer to TNN. The discard is also not that great vs them because they just have a million cantrips + Jace to draw them out of the situations)

3rd place finish and picked up 1 Cavern of Souls & 1 Flooded Strand with 60€ value.

Top 4 list´s can be found here http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=17560&d=308793&f=LE

Decklist:
15 Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

24 Spells
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember

4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

21 Lands
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Swamp

SIDEBOARD
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Marsh Casualties
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Krosan Grip
1 Liliana the last Hope
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Thoughtseize

Clique did not dissapoint me and won me G2 vs ANT and was just a solid card vs NicFit & Miracles.

Dismember was not relevant because I did not face any creature based MU's especially no Eldrazi or Angler deck (Multiple in the room). Fatal Push would have been also irrelevant...

I really want the 3rd Flusterstorm in the SB because its just so good, I have to find room for it somewhere.

Mixing UU & BB spells in the MD can be a bit difficult from time to time but Hymn is just to good at the moment not to play.


Anyone pushing or streaming this deck recently? It has been putting up several good finishes in the hands of Pascal and Marius but somehow not a lot of people are picking up on this.

[Manipulato]

Anyone pushing or streaming this deck recently? It has been putting up several good finishes in the hands of Pascal and Marius but somehow not a lot of people are picking up on this.

Hi,
the deck is very popular in the southern area of Germany and Austria/Switzerland.Marius Hausmann, Pascal Richter and also me are playing it up and down and it´s really strong and balanced. You can check out the results here -> http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=86&meta=72&f=LE

I think that most people who want to play a BGx deck just pick up 4c Czech Pile currently over the BUG Midrange version because Kolaghans Command and Pyroblasts are just very strong...I think that TNN+Jitte+Wastelands are the upsides we have if you compare it with 4c Pile.

If you want to know more just ask.

Greeting Franz

[mike1987]

Hi,
the deck is very popular in the southern area of Germany and Austria/Switzerland.Marius Hausmann, Pascal Richter and also me are playing it up and down and it´s really strong and balanced. You can check out the results here -> http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=86&meta=72&f=LE

I think that most people who want to play a BGx deck just pick up 4c Czech Pile currently over the BUG Midrange version because Kolaghans Command and Pyroblasts are just very strong...I think that TNN+Jitte+Wastelands are the upsides we have if you compare it with 4c Pile.

If you want to know more just ask.

Greeting Franz

Hey, thanks for the reply. I have been jamming it a few times and I too find it quite well balanced in most matches (even though i am not that good of a player :tongue:).

Going by Marius list at MKM, what are your general thoughts and approach towards the usual decks like Grixis Delver, Lands and Miracles (have seen many players picking it up as of late).

[Ghost888]

Hi,

Been playing close to Marius list, but haven't been doing well lately. Going 1 - 3. I have been playing.

Decklist:
15 Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest

24 Spells
2 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember

4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Liliana the last Hope
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

21 Lands
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Swamp

I haven't been impressed with the hymn.
I know it is a 2 for 1.
1) early I feel I lose tempo without putting a threat down or digging for treats/answers.
2) late game it is bad
I don't know if I'm playing Hymn that well or when do you play the spell?

Also been contemplating putting in a search for azcanta, don't know if it would be good.
1) It helps a semi scry early
2) The deck is very mana hungry so can be good when it flips
3) helps late game getting a jitte or planeswalker if you have no more threats.
What is everyones thoughts

What do you side in against BUG delver?

Thanks

[meffeo]

I find myself more and more in need for a Forest, even though I know it's an awful but necessary land to play (see Hymn/JTMS/Lili/TNN). Will switch with a fetchland and test it tomorrow night.

Given my local meta, a second Jitte is not needed and therefore I cut a TNN and replaced them with a 3rd Snapcaster and a Liliana otV. The deck is a lot of fun to play and in my opinion has a fine matchup against Czech Pile!

[NegatorITA]

Only I had terrible run with the deck it seems?
I got continusly screwed up by the mana base (like, basic + wastelands cutting off colors I need)
few removals
useless snappy cuz I've no target
marsh casualities not cleaning what I want vs Taxes (hard to achieve 5 mana AND BB vs nut good draws and boardstate from them)
clearly, I'm not saying the deck is bad:
Jitte + Nemesi when assemble is often GG and we have all the good things a bug can have, yet I'm surprize the time I've been playing it I've mostly had bad situations compared to Pile, even If I feel like everyone is prepared for what Pile has to offers, while few are really prepared for the rougue merfolk swordman.

[btm10]

Only I had terrible run with the deck it seems?
I got continusly screwed up by the mana base (like, basic + wastelands cutting off colors I need)
few removals
useless snappy cuz I've no target
marsh casualities not cleaning what I want vs Taxes (hard to achieve 5 mana AND BB vs nut good draws and boardstate from them)
clearly, I'm not saying the deck is bad:
Jitte + Nemesi when assemble is often GG and we have all the good things a bug can have, yet I'm surprize the time I've been playing it I've mostly had bad situations compared to Pile, even If I feel like everyone is prepared for what Pile has to offers, while few are really prepared for the rougue merfolk swordman.

I'm not as high on the TNN/Hymn lists that seem to be popular in Europe as I am on the list I posted above. The 1-mana discard spells both make Snapcaster/JVP better and give a smoother cost distribution for curving out. They also make it easier to cast your spells since you only need BB for Liliana. I also prefer Golgari Charm to Marsh Casualties because it's an instant, it's easier to cast, and the Demystify mode is often relevant.


I find myself more and more in need for a Forest, even though I know it's an awful but necessary land to play (see Hymn/JTMS/Lili/TNN). Will switch with a fetchland and test it tomorrow night.

Given my local meta, a second Jitte is not needed and therefore I cut a TNN and replaced them with a 3rd Snapcaster and a Liliana otV. The deck is a lot of fun to play and in my opinion has a fine matchup against Czech Pile!

I agree that BUG is favored against Czech Pile, and would extend that to Grixis Control, Grixis Delver, and Miracles as well. Even with my easier color requirements, I'm still on the fence about Forest, so I'm interested in seeing how your testing goes. If you've tried my list from above, I'd be interested in your results there too.

[meffeo]

I agree that BUG is favored against Czech Pile, and would extend that to Grixis Control, Grixis Delver, and Miracles as well. Even with my easier color requirements, I'm still on the fence about Forest, so I'm interested in seeing how your testing goes. If you've tried my list from above, I'd be interested in your results there too.

For reference:

4 DRS
4 Strix
3 SCM
2 Leovold
2 TNN

4 BS
2 Push
3 Ponder
2 Tseize
2 AD
1 Edict
2 Hymn
1 Jitte
1 Liliana otV
2 JTMS
4 FoW

1 Bayou
1 Island
4 Misty
4 Delta
1 Swamp
2 Trop
3 Usea
2 Verdant
3 Wasteland

SB
2 Flusterstorm
2 Hydroblast
3 Surgical
1 Edict
2 Hymn
1 Loam
2 Marsh Casualties
1 KGrip
1 Liliana tlH

So far multiples 3-1 (quite a small sample) but I found myself locked out by Blood Moon decks (was not able to cast Decay on Chalice because of Moon and/or Hydroblast on Moon because of Chalice), that is the reason behind the Forest. Still not 100% sure to cut a Fetchland to make room for the basic and consequently to weaken the deck against the field but hey, it's probably a necessary evil.

[apistat_commander]

So far multiples 3-1 (quite a small sample) but I found myself locked out by Blood Moon decks (was not able to cast Decay on Chalice because of Moon and/or Hydroblast on Moon because of Chalice), that is the reason behind the Forest. Still not 100% sure to cut a Fetchland to make room for the basic and consequently to weaken the deck against the field but hey, it's probably a necessary evil.

I think if you are playing BUG/Pile/Delver, you just accept that you are gonna get Blood Mooned some games. In the long run, I think you will lose more games because you have a basic Forest in your opener than win games where you are able to fetch Swamp + Forest before the Moon comes down and then draw into a Decay while it still matters. Green is a super light splash, all of your impact spells are blue or black. I get the temptation to want to make yourself more resilient against Moon decks, but that simply isn't possible in this color combination while also getting to run Wasteland. If Blood Moon is a huge part of your meta then you need to mull to FoW or run a deck that can support basics. Otherwise, I think you just accept that you are gonna get some bad beats occasionally from Moon decks.

[Manipulato]

I think if you are playing BUG/Pile/Delver, you just accept that you are gonna get Blood Mooned some games. In the long run, I think you will lose more games because you have a basic Forest in your opener than win games where you are able to fetch Swamp + Forest before the Moon comes down and then draw into a Decay while it still matters. Green is a super light splash, all of your impact spells are blue or black. I get the temptation to want to make yourself more resilient against Moon decks, but that simply isn't possible in this color combination while also getting to run Wasteland. If Blood Moon is a huge part of your meta then you need to mull to FoW or run a deck that can support basics. Otherwise, I think you just accept that you are gonna get some bad beats occasionally from Moon decks.

100% True words +1

[meffeo]

I think if you are playing BUG/Pile/Delver, you just accept that you are gonna get Blood Mooned some games. In the long run, I think you will lose more games because you have a basic Forest in your opener than win games where you are able to fetch Swamp + Forest before the Moon comes down and then draw into a Decay while it still matters. Green is a super light splash, all of your impact spells are blue or black. I get the temptation to want to make yourself more resilient against Moon decks, but that simply isn't possible in this color combination while also getting to run Wasteland. If Blood Moon is a huge part of your meta then you need to mull to FoW or run a deck that can support basics. Otherwise, I think you just accept that you are gonna get some bad beats occasionally from Moon decks.

Yeah, those are basically my thoughts after a couple hours of thinking. Luckily my meta is not that filled by Moons so I will stick to the original manabase.

@btm10: You sure about GCharm? It kills more than 50% of your threats and you get the Demystify effect from the Grip.

[btm10]

Yeah, those are basically my thoughts after a couple hours of thinking. Luckily my meta is not that filled by Moons so I will stick to the original manabase.

@btm10: You sure about GCharm? It kills more than 50% of your threats and you get the Demystify effect from the Grip.

I’m 100% sure about GCharm. It, like the Forest, is somewhat better in my list since I’m running more green cards and additional threats that survive it, but Instant speed and being easier to cast count for a lot. Killing your own stuff is usually not a real concern in the matchups where -X/-X effects matter. Even I’m lukewarm on the Forest, and my deck is much greener than yours.

[meffeo]

Another small sample, 2-2 at the local, I faced:

Miracles 2-0, Hydroblasted a Moon in G2.
Painter 2-0, Hydroblasted a Moon, Decayed another one (thanks to BG floating) and Pushed a Magus of the Moon and won through JTMS + Lili.
Ant 0-2, he drew the nuts both games.
Miracles 1-2, won through JTMS and lost G3 with the opponent at 1 life into topdecked Terminus and afterward... Moon.

I played the list I posted yesterday, without Forest. Would it have been better with the singleton basic? Probably not, so I will stick to the original 75s.

[mike1987]

Another small sample, 2-2 at the local, I faced:

Miracles 2-0, Hydroblasted a Moon in G2.
Painter 2-0, Hydroblasted a Moon, Decayed another one (thanks to BG floating) and Pushed a Magus of the Moon and won through JTMS + Lili.
Ant 0-2, he drew the nuts both games.
Miracles 1-2, won through JTMS and lost G3 with the opponent at 1 life into topdecked Terminus and afterward... Moon.

I played the list I posted yesterday, without Forest. Would it have been better with the singleton basic? Probably not, so I will stick to the original 75s.

What’s your sb and game plan against miracles. Due to their resurgence of late, I am thinking of upping
the abrupt decay count to 3. Even without top, the soft lock of counterbalance coupled with cantrips seem to be
an uphill battle for us. Not to mention after board, they will bring in mentors

[EJexpresss]

Hey, picked up the deck b/c it looked sweet and rode it to 2nd place at a ~30 person tournament. Had very little time to test matchups, so took one of Hausmann's lists (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18145&d=312500&f=LE) with these changes:
MD:
+1 Sylvan Library, -1 Jitte (moved to SB)
+1 Vendilion Clique, -1 Leovold (didn't have a 2nd Leo)

SB:
-1 blue blast (not much SnS/Moon decks), +1 Jitte (moved from main)
-1 Liliana, the last hope (couldn't find one), +1 Pithing Needle (lots of marit lage, DnT)
-1 Krosan Grip, +1 Abrupt Decay (can anyone explain Kgrip's advantages? seems like AD does everything I'd want and has more applications)

Tournament:
Round 1 (won 2-0): BUG midrange with crop rotation package
This guy had similar cards, but a crop rotation package for DD combo, bojuka bog, cabal pit, and cephalid coliseum (??), plus stifles to protect it.
G1 he taps out t3 for Liliana of the Veil, I decay it end step and untap with Jace.
G2 We both have jace, but mine lands first and I quickly find a TNN and he only has strix. I go face and he tries to fatesteal me out, but I Needle his jace once he gets to 13 and attack for lethal the following turn.

SB: -4 FoW, +2 Hymn, +1 Life from the Loam, +1 Edict (Swapping forces for more hymns was one of my more common boarding strategies)

Round 2 (lost 1-2): Death & Taxes with quad Mirran Crusader
G1: He's feeling pretty good with a board of Mom, Mirran Crusader, and Stoneforge Mystic against my DRS and 2x Strix. But he's tapped out and I have 4 mana with Jitte in hand. One hit with an equipped Strix and I run away with the game.
G2: STP hits my deathrite and he gets out crusader and mom vs. my Leovold+Strix, followed up by Gideon, Avenger of Zendikar. I Needle his Gideon, but have to play carefully to avoid him Flickwisping Needle (his Cavern had named Elemental) and combing with Crusader for lethal. My only out is to get up to 5 mana for kicked marsh casualties and I go into full dig mode to find more mana (deck was not providing lands). I get an another deathrite and have my 4th land on top of my library and need to fade one drawstep, but he rips Thalia and I lose
G3: I had a really interesting scenario here that I believe I misplayed. His board is 4 lands, Batterskull equipped with SoFI, a Stoneforge Mystic, a Flickerwisp, and Vial on 3. My board is triple TNN. My hand is Marsh Casualties + Abrupt Decay, his hand is Jitte + 3 unknowns. Life totals are 10-14. I swing with 2 TNNs to put him to 8 and at the end of my turn, he activates Vial - Do you decay SoFI in response?

- If he has Sanctum Prelate and names "2", I lose on the spot unless I Decay in response.
- If I Decay in response and he has a 5th land, he can move Skull onto Flickerwisp and I have one draw step to get Strix, Push, or Edict (and deal w/ Jitte coming down).

I chose not to decay in response and he had Prelate. I felt bad, then felt like maybe it had been the right play. However, my opponent pointed out that he'd missed his land drop for the turn, to he needed to rip the 5th land to make the Batterskull equip play possible. So I think firing off Decay was correct, but it was interesting for sure.

SB: -4 FoW, -2 Jace, +2 Casualties, +1 Jitte, +1 Neelde, +1 Edict, +1 Hymn (I went 4th Hymn over Library and opted not to bring in Loam, but maybe I should have?)

Round 3 (won 2-0): Food Chain
G1: We trade Decays and Deathrites and I hit him with some discard and land a TNN. He gets Griffin + Food Chain, but can't find a payoff in time and dies with Force and a redundant Food Chain in hand.
G2: We kill each other's Deathrites again. I waste his 3rd land, he never draws another one.

I boarded like an idiot, cutting FoW for Hymn, adding an extra Edict, and leaving Needle in the board (For some reason, I forgot Walking Ballista is the kill of choice rather than Emrakul - I should've realized when after I confirmed w/ him that Food Chain was a mana ability and said: "guess i won't need this needle," and he looked very surprised/happy).

Correct board is probably: -1 Edict, + 1 Needle (for Walking Ballista, not Food Chain), and maybe +2 flusterstorms, -1 Jitte, -1 Strix

Round 4 (won 2-1): Grixis Pyromancer
G1: I play USea, go and so does he. I have the option of tapping out for Library t2 or Wasting him. I have a 2nd Wasteland and take that line, only to get super-punished when he topdecks a Thoughtseize and strips my library. I had assumed he was delver and hoped to just waste him out of the game, but I think jamming Library is 100% correct there, as if he is delver and dazes, the wasteland plan just gets better. He then has removal for everything and lands a Gurmag Angler I can't beat.
G2: He fetches basics, which makes it really easy to cut him off colors with Wastelands. He gets Gurmag again, but I land a jace to bounce it, waste his badlands, and he sits on double-basic-island as I Jace him out of the game.
G3: Another very grindy game that goes back and forth until I land TNN+Jace again and run away with it.

My opponent was a Modern guy jamming Legacy for the fun of it and it showed. I had to remind him to draw off Preordains and Probes multiple times and after G3, he revealed that he had left his Pyroblasts in the board, apparently not realizing they can counter TNN on the stack.

SB: -4 FoW, -2 thoughtseize, -1 jace (since I assumed he had 3 blasts), +2 Hymn, +1 Marsh Casualties, +1 Jitte, +1 AD, +1 Edict, +1 Hydroblast

Round 5 (won 2-0): Death and Taxes
G1: I cast t2 Hymn, t3 Hymn, t4 TNN, which leaves him with a Vial and lands and not much to do. He Recruiters up a Crusader, which he hardcasts into my Force of Will.
G2: I get out DRS into TNN into Jitte. He has a Serra Avenger and a SoFI. He taps out t4 for Cataclysm anyway, leaving the his board as unqeuipped Sword, Avenger, Wasteland (+Plains for turn) vs. my Island, TNN+Jitte (2 counters). He's at 14, so I untap and attack for 7, then do it again for lethal. Not sure what his line was there...

SB: same as rd 2

My car placed 2 in top 8 (and one in 9th on breakers....), so not bad!
Quarterfinals (won 2-1): Aluren
Honestly don't remember these games well, but feel EXTREMELY lucky to have gotten there. The matchup feels v. bad as they can grind so hard and I also played and SB'd like a blind idiot.
G1: Our boards are my DRS, Leovold, Strix vs. his DRS, Levold, 2 Strixes. The extra strix edge lets him whittle my life total far enough and I get overwhelmed by value. At one point I had jitte in hand vs his one card in hand and could cast it but not equip. I chose to pass turn, which allowed him to draw blue card+Force and ruin my day when I tried to resolve it. If he'd been holding decay he likely would've cast it already, so that was a particularly poor choice on my part.
G2: We played 5 deathrites in the first 2 turns and 1 of mine survived the ensuing carnage. It was joined by a TNN, and he couldn't race me fast enough.
G3: I had double deathrite, equipped jitte to one, and started swinging. He hit 3 lands and tried to resolve Glissa, the Traitor, but was foiled by his basic island, instead casting Cavern Harpy. the following turn he went for Parasitic Strix and I used a counter on Harpy in response, forcing him to bounce it and denying him the drain 2. He then blocked my jitte'd deathrite with PStrix, allowing me to kill it. I resolved a baleful strix, moved jitte there and started aggressively pumping for damage, which backfired when he pushed it. Fortunately, he never drew his 4th land and died with Aluren x2, Harpy x2 in hand. If he hadn't traded off PStrix, he would've had the kill, but he probably expected me to save the jitte counters to disrupt him (the correct play) instead of pumping aggressively.

SB: Not sure what to take out? Marsh Casualties and Jitte are the MVPs. I cut Forces for Hymns, but I think you want both. You also want TNN b/c you need the clock. So probably -1 Edict, -2 Thoughtseize, -2 Jace, -1 Snapcaster for +2 Hymn, +2 Marsh Casualties, +1 Jitte, +1 AD?

Semifinals (won 2-1): Death and Taxes opponent from Round 2
G1: Got in w/ Strixes, resolved TNNs, had decay for his equipment.
G2: I fetch basics and he kills my DRS then recruiters for Mirran Crusader. He has vial on 3 and i have clique, so I'm super-excited when he taps it on my end step, only to realize my board of Island+swamp+wasteland does not, in fact, cast Vendilion Clique. Crusader is quickly followed by Prelate on 2 and I'm stuck with a hand of Hymns, Decays, and Strixes (which I NOW realize you can cast through Prelate, but did not at the time).
G3: He mulls to 6 and opens on Cavern naming Kor. I waste it and he doesn't draw another land until after I've hit him with Hymn, Hymn, Snap+Hymn.

Finals (lost 0-2): Miracles
G1: I should have won this, but I forced a counterbalance pitching TNN when my board was DRS, Clique, Strix. I'd survived one Terminus and Clique'd away a 2nd, but he hit my Clique with STP and that gave him enough time to find a 3rd and win from literal 1 life. There was a ton of interesting counterplay in this game but basically my opponent found what he needed when he needed it.
G2: I get rolled as he established Jace early vs. my Sylvan Library. My library finds every fetchland in my deck, but zero threats and his Jace crushes me badly.

SB: I took out Forces and went on a discard + Surgical plan. In the future, I'd leave in all 4 Forces and bring in the flusters to fight on the stack. Maybe -2 Push, -1 Edict, -1 Jitte, and +2 Hymn, +2 fluster? Liliana would be good here as well.


====

Anyway, the deck seemed sweet and I liked the list - didn't need the surgicals and flusters b/c I never hit the fast combo decks, but see why they're necessary. I was lucky with my hands - I think I only mulliganed once all tournament - but the deck has a wide range of playable hands, esp. against fair decks. Having both TNN+Jitte and DRS+wasteland gives you a few easy "I win" angles, which is super-important in Legacy. Loam+wasteland out of the board is great for grindy, greedy matchups as well as for fighting mana denial strategies. I acquired a 2nd leovold with my winnings and am looking forward to running it in the future.

[Manipulato]

Hey, picked up the deck b/c it looked sweet and rode it to 2nd place at a ~30 person tournament. Had very little time to test matchups, so took one of Hausmann's lists (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18145&d=312500&f=LE) with these changes:
MD:
+1 Sylvan Library, -1 Jitte (moved to SB)
+1 Vendilion Clique, -1 Leovold (didn't have a 2nd Leo)

SB:
-1 blue blast (not much SnS/Moon decks), +1 Jitte (moved from main)
-1 Liliana, the last hope (couldn't find one), +1 Pithing Needle (lots of marit lage, DnT)
-1 Krosan Grip, +1 Abrupt Decay (can anyone explain Kgrip's advantages? seems like AD does everything I'd want and has more applications)

Tournament:
Round 1 (won 2-0): BUG midrange with crop rotation package
This guy had similar cards, but a crop rotation package for DD combo, bojuka bog, cabal pit, and cephalid coliseum (??), plus stifles to protect it.
G1 he taps out t3 for Liliana of the Veil, I decay it end step and untap with Jace.
G2 We both have jace, but mine lands first and I quickly find a TNN and he only has strix. I go face and he tries to fatesteal me out, but I Needle his jace once he gets to 13 and attack for lethal the following turn.

SB: -4 FoW, +2 Hymn, +1 Life from the Loam, +1 Edict (Swapping forces for more hymns was one of my more common boarding strategies)

Round 2 (lost 1-2): Death & Taxes with quad Mirran Crusader
G1: He's feeling pretty good with a board of Mom, Mirran Crusader, and Stoneforge Mystic against my DRS and 2x Strix. But he's tapped out and I have 4 mana with Jitte in hand. One hit with an equipped Strix and I run away with the game.
G2: STP hits my deathrite and he gets out crusader and mom vs. my Leovold+Strix, followed up by Gideon, Avenger of Zendikar. I Needle his Gideon, but have to play carefully to avoid him Flickwisping Needle (his Cavern had named Elemental) and combing with Crusader for lethal. My only out is to get up to 5 mana for kicked marsh casualties and I go into full dig mode to find more mana (deck was not providing lands). I get an another deathrite and have my 4th land on top of my library and need to fade one drawstep, but he rips Thalia and I lose
G3: I had a really interesting scenario here that I believe I misplayed. His board is 4 lands, Batterskull equipped with SoFI, a Stoneforge Mystic, a Flickerwisp, and Vial on 3. My board is triple TNN. My hand is Marsh Casualties + Abrupt Decay, his hand is Jitte + 3 unknowns. Life totals are 10-14. I swing with 2 TNNs to put him to 8 and at the end of my turn, he activates Vial - Do you decay SoFI in response?

- If he has Sanctum Prelate and names "2", I lose on the spot unless I Decay in response.
- If I Decay in response and he has a 5th land, he can move Skull onto Flickerwisp and I have one draw step to get Strix, Push, or Edict (and deal w/ Jitte coming down).

I chose not to decay in response and he had Prelate. I felt bad, then felt like maybe it had been the right play. However, my opponent pointed out that he'd missed his land drop for the turn, to he needed to rip the 5th land to make the Batterskull equip play possible. So I think firing off Decay was correct, but it was interesting for sure.

SB: -4 FoW, -2 Jace, +2 Casualties, +1 Jitte, +1 Neelde, +1 Edict, +1 Hymn (I went 4th Hymn over Library and opted not to bring in Loam, but maybe I should have?)

Round 3 (won 2-0): Food Chain
G1: We trade Decays and Deathrites and I hit him with some discard and land a TNN. He gets Griffin + Food Chain, but can't find a payoff in time and dies with Force and a redundant Food Chain in hand.
G2: We kill each other's Deathrites again. I waste his 3rd land, he never draws another one.

I boarded like an idiot, cutting FoW for Hymn, adding an extra Edict, and leaving Needle in the board (For some reason, I forgot Walking Ballista is the kill of choice rather than Emrakul - I should've realized when after I confirmed w/ him that Food Chain was a mana ability and said: "guess i won't need this needle," and he looked very surprised/happy).

Correct board is probably: -1 Edict, + 1 Needle (for Walking Ballista, not Food Chain), and maybe +2 flusterstorms, -1 Jitte, -1 Strix

Round 4 (won 2-1): Grixis Pyromancer
G1: I play USea, go and so does he. I have the option of tapping out for Library t2 or Wasting him. I have a 2nd Wasteland and take that line, only to get super-punished when he topdecks a Thoughtseize and strips my library. I had assumed he was delver and hoped to just waste him out of the game, but I think jamming Library is 100% correct there, as if he is delver and dazes, the wasteland plan just gets better. He then has removal for everything and lands a Gurmag Angler I can't beat.
G2: He fetches basics, which makes it really easy to cut him off colors with Wastelands. He gets Gurmag again, but I land a jace to bounce it, waste his badlands, and he sits on double-basic-island as I Jace him out of the game.
G3: Another very grindy game that goes back and forth until I land TNN+Jace again and run away with it.

My opponent was a Modern guy jamming Legacy for the fun of it and it showed. I had to remind him to draw off Preordains and Probes multiple times and after G3, he revealed that he had left his Pyroblasts in the board, apparently not realizing they can counter TNN on the stack.

SB: -4 FoW, -2 thoughtseize, -1 jace (since I assumed he had 3 blasts), +2 Hymn, +1 Marsh Casualties, +1 Jitte, +1 AD, +1 Edict, +1 Hydroblast

Round 5 (won 2-0): Death and Taxes
G1: I cast t2 Hymn, t3 Hymn, t4 TNN, which leaves him with a Vial and lands and not much to do. He Recruiters up a Crusader, which he hardcasts into my Force of Will.
G2: I get out DRS into TNN into Jitte. He has a Serra Avenger and a SoFI. He taps out t4 for Cataclysm anyway, leaving the his board as unqeuipped Sword, Avenger, Wasteland (+Plains for turn) vs. my Island, TNN+Jitte (2 counters). He's at 14, so I untap and attack for 7, then do it again for lethal. Not sure what his line was there...

SB: same as rd 2

My car placed 2 in top 8 (and one in 9th on breakers....), so not bad!
Quarterfinals (won 2-1): Aluren
Honestly don't remember these games well, but feel EXTREMELY lucky to have gotten there. The matchup feels v. bad as they can grind so hard and I also played and SB'd like a blind idiot.
G1: Our boards are my DRS, Leovold, Strix vs. his DRS, Levold, 2 Strixes. The extra strix edge lets him whittle my life total far enough and I get overwhelmed by value. At one point I had jitte in hand vs his one card in hand and could cast it but not equip. I chose to pass turn, which allowed him to draw blue card+Force and ruin my day when I tried to resolve it. If he'd been holding decay he likely would've cast it already, so that was a particularly poor choice on my part.
G2: We played 5 deathrites in the first 2 turns and 1 of mine survived the ensuing carnage. It was joined by a TNN, and he couldn't race me fast enough.
G3: I had double deathrite, equipped jitte to one, and started swinging. He hit 3 lands and tried to resolve Glissa, the Traitor, but was foiled by his basic island, instead casting Cavern Harpy. the following turn he went for Parasitic Strix and I used a counter on Harpy in response, forcing him to bounce it and denying him the drain 2. He then blocked my jitte'd deathrite with PStrix, allowing me to kill it. I resolved a baleful strix, moved jitte there and started aggressively pumping for damage, which backfired when he pushed it. Fortunately, he never drew his 4th land and died with Aluren x2, Harpy x2 in hand. If he hadn't traded off PStrix, he would've had the kill, but he probably expected me to save the jitte counters to disrupt him (the correct play) instead of pumping aggressively.

SB: Not sure what to take out? Marsh Casualties and Jitte are the MVPs. I cut Forces for Hymns, but I think you want both. You also want TNN b/c you need the clock. So probably -1 Edict, -2 Thoughtseize, -2 Jace, -1 Snapcaster for +2 Hymn, +2 Marsh Casualties, +1 Jitte, +1 AD?

Semifinals (won 2-1): Death and Taxes opponent from Round 2
G1: Got in w/ Strixes, resolved TNNs, had decay for his equipment.
G2: I fetch basics and he kills my DRS then recruiters for Mirran Crusader. He has vial on 3 and i have clique, so I'm super-excited when he taps it on my end step, only to realize my board of Island+swamp+wasteland does not, in fact, cast Vendilion Clique. Crusader is quickly followed by Prelate on 2 and I'm stuck with a hand of Hymns, Decays, and Strixes (which I NOW realize you can cast through Prelate, but did not at the time).
G3: He mulls to 6 and opens on Cavern naming Kor. I waste it and he doesn't draw another land until after I've hit him with Hymn, Hymn, Snap+Hymn.

Finals (lost 0-2): Miracles
G1: I should have won this, but I forced a counterbalance pitching TNN when my board was DRS, Clique, Strix. I'd survived one Terminus and Clique'd away a 2nd, but he hit my Clique with STP and that gave him enough time to find a 3rd and win from literal 1 life. There was a ton of interesting counterplay in this game but basically my opponent found what he needed when he needed it.
G2: I get rolled as he established Jace early vs. my Sylvan Library. My library finds every fetchland in my deck, but zero threats and his Jace crushes me badly.

SB: I took out Forces and went on a discard + Surgical plan. In the future, I'd leave in all 4 Forces and bring in the flusters to fight on the stack. Maybe -2 Push, -1 Edict, -1 Jitte, and +2 Hymn, +2 fluster? Liliana would be good here as well.


====

Anyway, the deck seemed sweet and I liked the list - didn't need the surgicals and flusters b/c I never hit the fast combo decks, but see why they're necessary. I was lucky with my hands - I think I only mulliganed once all tournament - but the deck has a wide range of playable hands, esp. against fair decks. Having both TNN+Jitte and DRS+wasteland gives you a few easy "I win" angles, which is super-important in Legacy. Loam+wasteland out of the board is great for grindy, greedy matchups as well as for fighting mana denial strategies. I acquired a 2nd leovold with my winnings and am looking forward to running it in the future.

Krosan Grip is mainly for Batterskull but its also better at getting rid of Aluren, Sneak Attack, Omniscience and stuff like that.
Its also better vs Blood Moon decks because with only one Shaman we're able to destroy the Moon which wouldnt be able with AD. Another advantage is that the DnT player cannot safe his equipment with a flashed in Flickerwisp or similar things.

[meffeo]

What’s your sb and game plan against miracles. Due to their resurgence of late, I am thinking of upping
the abrupt decay count to 3. Even without top, the soft lock of counterbalance coupled with cantrips seem to be
an uphill battle for us. Not to mention after board, they will bring in mentors

Sorry for the late reply. I tend to board like this:

- -1 Jitte, -2 Push, -1 Edict, -1 SCM, -1 Wasteland
- +2 Flusterstorm, +2 Hydroblast, +1 KGrip, +1 Liliana tlH. If I see Mentors, bring in Casualties for the blowout.

[Tutor]

You did any full sideguide for this deck ?

Ty!

[meffeo]

You did any full sideguide for this deck ?

Ty!

You talking with me? I could provide you with my humble insight later in the day :wink:

[Tutor]

You talking with me? I could provide you with my humble insight later in the day :wink:

haha yeah sorry forgot to quote =D

thanks !! will appreciate.

[meffeo]

haha yeah sorry forgot to quote =D

thanks !! will appreciate.
Assuming you are playing my 75s:

Grixis Delver:
-4 Force of Will, -2 Tseize
+ 2 Flusterstorm, +2 Hydroblast, +1 Loam, +1 LTLH

ANT
-1 Jitte, -2 Push, -2 JTMS, -1 Edict, -2 TNN, -1 Wasteland
+2 Flusterstorm, +3 Surgical, +2 Hymn, +2 Marsh Casualties (depending on ETW)

Miracles
-1 Jitte, -2 Push, -1 Edict, -1 SCM, -1 Wasteland
+2 Flusterstorm, +2 Hydroblast, +1 KGrip, +1 LTLH (Casualties for the Mentor(s)).

Czech Pile
-4 Force of Will
+ 1 LTLH, +1 Loam, +2 Hydroblast

Eldrazi
-2 JTMS, -2 Tseize (keep them OTP)
+1 Edict, +1 KGrip, +2 Hymn (OTP)

D&T
-4 Force of Will, -1 JTMS
+1 LTLH, +1 KGrip, +2 Casualties, +1 Edict

S&S
-2 Push, -1 Jitte, -2 TNN, -2 AD (Defense Grid? Back in), -1 Wasteland
+2 Flusterstorm, +2 Hydroblast, +1 Edict, +2 Hymn, +1 KGrip

ELVES
- 2 JTMS, -2 Strix, -1 Edict
+2 Flusterstorm, +2 Casualties, +1 LTLH


I mostly covered all the DTB but please take those numbers with a grain of salt, I'm no master with the deck but simply enjoy the most powerful combination of colors nowadays (played a lot of bug based decks - from Bug Delver to Food Chain).

Curious to see your insights too, feel free to comment and report incorrect boardings.

EDIT:
A Sultai Control (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=119280) deck made 25th place at the recent SCG Open, sadly it wasn't featured on camera. Nice addition of Sylvan Library in the side (Loam was cut but I like it more vs Czech Pile) in order to control even more the control matchup; I like the more dedicated discard spell in form of 1 Tourach and 1 Tseize. The deck is gas.

[Tutor]

thanks!!!

[meffeo]

4-0ed our local tournament yesterday, the deck felt considerably better postboard compared to preboard, since I lost three times in a row the first game of every match. I faced:

Maverick 2-1

G1 I was short on lands despite fetching twice for basic in order to avoid opponent's Wastelands, then died to a Scooze equipped with a Jitte + KotR without finding a single threat.
G2 I led with DRS, he kept a greedy hand and fetched for non basic + Bop, I wasted him and decayed the bird and he never drew a 2nd land. He told me after the third game that he wasn't expecting any Wasteland at all.
G3 He deployed a lot of mana dorks in form of x/1 creatures + Thalia, I had the T3 Casualties that wiped the board and he couldn't recover anymore.

Ruby Storm (mistercakes the man himself) 2-1

G1 I kept a greedy-ish hand with Leo + FoW + 4 lands, he probed me, I played Leo faking a pitch card for FoW, failed to bait since he probed me again and then I died to ToA on T3.
G2 11 cards came in, discard + clock + counterspells + surgical on BW. Hydroblasts shined like bright stars in the darkest night.
G3 Basically same as G2, I had to FoW a Defense Grid.

ANT 2-1

G1 Died on T2 otd thanks to natural ToA.
G2 Opponent mulled to 5, I Tseize + Tourach. Fair enough.
G3 Opponent mulled to 5 (lucky me) and led with CT naming DRS, found one but saw once again Tseize + Tourach. Surgical on IT and that's it.

Aggro Loam 2-0

G1 Four (!) KotR touched the ground (or tried to) and I was able to kill three of them one after the other (Edict, Decay, Strix equipped with Jitte and 5 counters) and FoWed the 4th one, then the same Strix with the same Jitte brought the game home.
G2 We grinded a bit more but I had the full grip all game long; a timely GCharm killed my Strix + SCM but the almighty Brainstorm found two more threats.


Nothing special to add, the deck did its job.

[Survex]

Im the guy who played the deck at the open. I've played the deck at a few local events clean sweeping them handily. It's the real deal, but I think I could cut the edict for either a decay or another hymn, or some other slot like maelstrom pulse or sylvan library. As for the tournament itself, I cant remember every match, but I did lose to miracles, burn and 4c deathblade. Drew vs lands and miracles (I think the lands matchup was gonna be a win). I think the decks I beat in no particular order were; battle of wits, grixis delver 2-3 times, 4c control, elves, storm, miracles, maverick, eldrazi.

I cut the loam because I wanted consistency on redundant effects to make my matchups more consistent. Loam is a unique card for particular matchups, but I dont think its necessary. I split the discard into 1/1, but if miracles is popular I would keep 2 hymns and go to four postboard.

Something to mention is that snapcasters weren't amazing. They were good, but I wasn't always pleased with them. There are a lot of DRS in the format and most of the time I felt forced to snapcast a ponder to get any value. I was looking at older decks of bug control and I noticed lordofthepit23 had played the deck early in 2017 after gp louisville and instead of two snapcaster mages he played gurmags which I could see being good. I was thinking of playing around and trying Tombstalker in that slot, just to play around with the deck.

[Nola]

Hey, guys!

Long time reading, first time writing in this thread. :)

I've been playing with the deck since November/December. I was a Grixis Delver player, but I decided to move to the BUG side of the Force, since I lost a tons of games just for one card: Chalice of The Void. :/

And I have to say that I'm very happy with the deck. It feels very consitent, and play with Decay is a must. :)

For reference, I play with this list:

Creatures [15]
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman

Instants [14]
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

Sorceries [8]
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder

Planeswalkers [2]
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Artifacts [1]
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands [21]
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs

SB

1 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Flusterstorm
2 Hydroblast
1 Krosan Grip
1 Sylvan Library
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Marsh Casualties
2 Surgical Extraction

I played some 12-16 players tournaments, and always made top 4 in all. The last tournament was a 2 day ago and I finish 2nd with 3-1-0.

My meta is full of DaT, 4C and Grixes Delver. The DaT match up is a really nightmare for me, even playing with Decays.

What do you feel about this match up? I Faced 2 DaT in the last tournament. 1 win, 1 draw. Sometimes I just want 1 Dread of Night in SB, replacing a Hydroblast. But, in a world full of KCommand... :/

Also, I like to know your thoughts on Life from the Loam. I replaced for a Silvan Library... What do you think, guys?

Another question, is about de Snaps... I feel then very mediocres in the most part of time. Every time a drew a Snap, I wish it could be a Tombstalker.

Thanks for your attention.

Greetings from Brazil!

PS: Sorry for the bad english.

[toffee]

Hi mates, I'm new with Team America / BUG Midrange and I'm playing this decklist in Italy, with some top8 in my local tournaments.

4 polluted delta
4 verdant catacombs
1 misty rainforest
4 wasteland
3 underground sea
2 bayou
1 tropical island

4 deathrite shaman
4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf
2 tombstalker

2 liliana of the veil

4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 daze
4 force of will
4 hymn to tourach
3 abrupt decay
2 fatal push

SIDEBOARD
3 bitterblossom
2 thoughtseize
2 diabolic edict
2 surgical extraction
2 flusterstorm
1 liliana, the last hope
1 golgari charm
1 marsh casualties
1 toxic deluge

3x bitterblossom: this is an awesome card...the reason why to play 3of is the best possibility to play it in the early game, and win the game...
2x tombstalker: I want to have an high possibility to play it in the mid-game...1of isn't too much.
2x llveil MD and 1x llhope SB: I think that llveil is better maindeck against a lot of matchups, instead of llhope. But I would ask to you the reasons to split 1/1 maindeck...I've never tested together MD yet.

[meffeo]

4 delver of secrets


Then maybe this thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27874-Deck-Team-America-(BUG-Delver)) is what you are looking for.

[btm10]

Hey, guys!

Long time reading, first time writing in this thread. :)

I've been playing with the deck since November/December. I was a Grixis Delver player, but I decided to move to the BUG side of the Force, since I lost a tons of games just for one card: Chalice of The Void. :/

And I have to say that I'm very happy with the deck. It feels very consitent, and play with Decay is a must. :)

For reference, I play with this list:

Creatures [15]
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman

Instants [14]
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

Sorceries [8]
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder

Planeswalkers [2]
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Artifacts [1]
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands [21]
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs

SB

1 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Flusterstorm
2 Hydroblast
1 Krosan Grip
1 Sylvan Library
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Marsh Casualties
2 Surgical Extraction

I played some 12-16 players tournaments, and always made top 4 in all. The last tournament was a 2 day ago and I finish 2nd with 3-1-0.

My meta is full of DaT, 4C and Grixes Delver. The DaT match up is a really nightmare for me, even playing with Decays.

What do you feel about this match up? I Faced 2 DaT in the last tournament. 1 win, 1 draw. Sometimes I just want 1 Dread of Night in SB, replacing a Hydroblast. But, in a world full of KCommand... :/

Also, I like to know your thoughts on Life from the Loam. I replaced for a Silvan Library... What do you think, guys?

Another question, is about de Snaps... I feel then very mediocres in the most part of time. Every time a drew a Snap, I wish it could be a Tombstalker.

Thanks for your attention.

Greetings from Brazil!

PS: Sorry for the bad english.

The D&T matchup is bad enough that I'd make sure you had something beyond Marsh Casualties to mop up their board. I'm partial to Massacre since it hits almost everything they can put out and gets around their mana denial. I'm not a fan of Sylvan Library outside of the Miracles matchup, nor do I like Krosan Grip much right now. I've been very happy with Goyfs over Snapcaster Mages as well. Sometimes you just need a big body.

[korstructure]

Awesome list from Lukas Blohon at GP Madrid (they placed 15th, not sure how Lukas did)

This list looks pretty stock. Just a few things I noticed and would love to hear your guys' thoughts too:


Snapcaster Mage down to one copy. I love this choice, especially with so many of you reporting that he's been lackluster.
Hydroblast AND Blue Elemental Blast - I LOVE two of these effects. I wonder if you get Therapy'd more often than you need unconditional DRS fuel?
4 Hymn and 2 Abrupt Decay - a move that many of you have thought about making. Awesome choice.
1 Umezawa's Jitte - Mengucci said that he hates the inclusion of this card in the list. What has all of your experience been with it?
No Liliana of the Veil - and only Last Hope in the board; this is fairly common but noteworthy as a data point nonetheless.
Any other thoughts?

Planeswalker (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Creature (13)
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 True-Name Nemesis
Sorcery (9)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
1 Thoughtseize
Instant (14)
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Fatal Push
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
Artifact (1)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Land (21)
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
3 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard (15)
1 Thoughtseize
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Flusterstorm
1 Hydroblast
1 Life from the Loam
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Marsh Casualties
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
1 Toxic Deluge

[EJexpresss]

Awesome list from Lukas Blohon at GP Madrid (they placed 15th, not sure how Lukas did)
MD Changes in Lukas's list:
-1 TNN
-1 Snapcaster
-1 Jitte
-1 Diabolic Edict
-1 Thoughtseize (to SB)
======
+2 Hymn
+2 Push
+1 Ponder

I'm all aboard with 3 Hymn MD, but I'd rather have the 2nd TS over the 4th, just for curve reasons (tho if you're going down on Snapcasters and adding the 4th Ponder, maybe it works out?). 4 Push seems good if you're expecting lots of creature decks, but I'd def prefer to include an Edict, as I have a lot of Marit Lage and Mirran Crusader in my meta.

This list looks tuned specifically for beating up on Grixis Delver. My only quibble is that I really like the proactive TNN+Jitte gameplan, so I'd keep the 3rd TNN (and have the 2nd Jitte in the SB).

SB:
Splitting blasts is a no-brainer IMO, it's not like we're a pyromancer deck (if you play 2, that is - I only run 1). Though I've never missed it in my build, Deluge is a strong card and another Angler answer. Spellbomb over the 3rd Surgical helps with Angler and can be good vs. Pile/Miracles/Grixis/etc. where messing with their graveyard is okay, but not worth a full card. I see R/B Reanimator often enough I'm not sure I'd make that change (tho cutting a Snapcaster makes the 3rd surgical a bit less appealing)

Thanks for posting the list! Overall I really like the direction.

[Tutor]

I know can have countless questions about why BUG instead Czech Pile.
We have pros: Stable manabase, Wasteland, TNN+Jitte.
Czech Pile: Greedy manabase, Kcommand, Red package: Bolt, blasts bolt.


So we are better now ? Turbo Depths, Miracles....

Im not sold to Czech Pile yet. And Delver, well....I love Baleful Strix.

[ironclad8690]

Hey, guys!

Long time reading, first time writing in this thread. :)

I've been playing with the deck since November/December. I was a Grixis Delver player, but I decided to move to the BUG side of the Force, since I lost a tons of games just for one card: Chalice of The Void. :/

And I have to say that I'm very happy with the deck. It feels very consitent, and play with Decay is a must. :)

For reference, I play with this list:

Creatures [15]
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 True-Name Nemesis
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman

Instants [14]
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

Sorceries [8]
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder

Planeswalkers [2]
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Artifacts [1]
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands [21]
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs

SB

1 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Flusterstorm
2 Hydroblast
1 Krosan Grip
1 Sylvan Library
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Marsh Casualties
2 Surgical Extraction

I played some 12-16 players tournaments, and always made top 4 in all. The last tournament was a 2 day ago and I finish 2nd with 3-1-0.

My meta is full of DaT, 4C and Grixes Delver. The DaT match up is a really nightmare for me, even playing with Decays.

What do you feel about this match up? I Faced 2 DaT in the last tournament. 1 win, 1 draw. Sometimes I just want 1 Dread of Night in SB, replacing a Hydroblast. But, in a world full of KCommand... :/

Also, I like to know your thoughts on Life from the Loam. I replaced for a Silvan Library... What do you think, guys?

Another question, is about de Snaps... I feel then very mediocres in the most part of time. Every time a drew a Snap, I wish it could be a Tombstalker.

Thanks for your attention.

Greetings from Brazil!

PS: Sorry for the bad english.

Bro, D&T's worst nightmare is TNN with a Jitte. I'd cut a push for the 2nd Jitte and just go ham on em. Jitte is a nice clean answer to Mirran Crusader. Try not to run it out until you can cast+equip, it makes a big difference with all of their shenanigans.

[beta]

Bug midrange just took down a big tournament in japan 309 players.

http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD43940S/

He cut down the usual number of 3 TNN to 2 TNN and a goyf, 1 leovold for liliana of the veil.

[Kyle]

I'm really surprised this deck isn't putting up more and regular positive results and/or people aren't playing it as much as Czech Pile. Midrange BUG is stabler (manawise), it runs Wasteland, and some of the best cards in the format, like True-name Nemesis and Jitte, with the colors to support Abrupt Decay. The only answer I'll accept is "Pile is more fun." No really, why is this deck not doing better?

More allure and variety over at the Czech Pile table which skews the volume of Pile lists showing up at tournaments? Is Kolaghan's Command and access to REB/Pyroblast really the only big reason?

Here are the recent Top8s of this deck from TCDecks: https://bit.ly/2pMpk0b

And here's Czech Pile, which is nearly FIVE TIMES the number of results: https://bit.ly/2E0APoS

:confused:

[robx13]

Hey all,

Picked up Sultai midrange again and been playing it at my locals at Dark Sphere, London the last few weeks. Here's my (probably wonky-looking) list:

https://i.imgur.com/8nUHaNZ.png

Key feature is 3 Daze, no planeswalkers. In short, just trying to leverage Wastelands against fair decks, more T1 interaction against broken stuff, don't think PWs are necessary to win in a TNN deck, easy to side Dazes out. This is a non-negotiable aspect of the deck for me now. If I want to play a Jace deck I'll play miracles instead (though I could see playing 1 in the 75 somewhere anyway, not two). Currently the Jitte is the 60th card in the deck, could be a Snapcaster, 4th TNN, 2nd Tombstalker, 2nd Library... and I'm currently torn between Abrupt Decay/Pithing Needle/Null Rod (and swapping the Jitte) as the 15th sideboard card. Otherwise I feel very good about the list. I'm 8-3-1 the last three weeks, but it could be better as I'd say at least one of those losses was certainly winnable and the draw too was avoidable as I could/should have won the G1.

Two reasons I'm posting. I'm not looking for feedback or suggestions about the list for now really, but suggesting it as a different take on the deck that people may or may not want to try. Daze without Delver does look wonky but I honestly think its a necessity if you're trying to have game against everything in the format (which I am). Other thing is that I've been on camera a few times the last few weeks (mostly losing as I'm rubbish!) I'm interested to discuss a play if anyone fancies watching it over:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/243562589?t=02h04m47s

Do you Force here to protect the TNN? I've discussed it with a couple of people and I'm still not sure. My reasoning for not Forcing was that I wanted to hold them as long as possible in the hope of never having to use them, or getting to hardcast them. In the meantime I still have a bunch of good draws that answer the Swiftspear, and I want to keep fodder in hand to put back with a Brainstorm should I draw one. I was also worried about him having TNNs of his own, or a flying creature, which TNN does nothing to slow down. At any rate, didn't feel my position was strong enough to attack any time soon with the TNN anyway. Clearly I'm the control deck in the matchup and holding the Forces would seem to prolong the game and give me further options down the line, but a series of subpar draw steps (1 hit from 4 draws and a Ponder if I recall) ended up handing the lategame back to my opponent.

Commentary was split on my decision, I feel OK about it and I think in fact I made a lot of other more costly mistakes elsewhere that added up to a deserved game loss, but I know at least one person I've spoken to felt that not Forcing cost me the game. So, thoughts?

[EJexpresss]

Do you Force here to protect the TNN?
Not having watched the entire game, I would force here. We generally lose this matchup by getting burned or aggro'd out, not by getting out-carded. TNN severely hampers their aggro plan (esp. b/c you have Decay to answer a potential flyer). Even if you get to 5 land before your opponent can draw out of his mana problems and can force his first two plays, without a clock you're not actually getting closer to winning. I think it's a mistake to think "I'm the control, so I want the game to go long" - esp. if my opponent is stuck on colors/lands, I would want to close the game as quickly as possible and I would value TNN very highly for that reason.

Love the idea behind the list btw - i've been jamming 1 "gotcha" Daze and it's been good enough that cutting the walkers for more is very tempting...

[robx13]

Not having watched the entire game, I would force here. We generally lose this matchup by getting burned or aggro'd out, not by getting out-carded. TNN severely hampers their aggro plan (esp. b/c you have Decay to answer a potential flyer). Even if you get to 5 land before your opponent can draw out of his mana problems and can force his first two plays, without a clock you're not actually getting closer to winning. I think it's a mistake to think "I'm the control, so I want the game to go long" - esp. if my opponent is stuck on colors/lands, I would want to close the game as quickly as possible and I would value TNN very highly for that reason.

There's a slight contradiction in your logic in that you're valuing TNN to hamper their aggro plan but also as a clock. The problem is that it can't be both, unless I spend the Decay on the Swiftspear and hope they don't have any other creatures, otherwise if I commit to attacking every turn I was expecting to lose that race. So then, the TNN is just a blocker until you find another one. IDK I could totally be wrong but that was my thinking at the time and having mulled it over I think I'd make the same play again, even though the TNN resolving and attacking every turn I THINK would have won me the game as it played out. (would have to rewatch to confirm). I'm open to the suggestion that despite the fact I prefer to play aggressive decks, my intuition just pushes me so hard towards taking greedy and/or conservative lines, and maybe it's something to be aware of and try and adjust long-term.

I can highly highly recommend adding more Dazes, the card is so clutch and really does a lot to address the weaknesses of a tap-out midrange style deck such as this.

[ironclad8690]

Played this pile in a 72 man tournament at Card Kingdom:

BUG cards I own:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Force of Will

3 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland

Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Thoughtseize
1 Spell Pierce
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Dead Weight
1 Life from the Loam
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Toxic Deluge


Record was:

Patrick on RUG Delver: 2-1
Josh on UWr Miracle/Landstill/Myth Realized: 1-2
Randy on Elves: 0-2
Ryan on Merfolk: 2-1
Richard on Burning Omnishow: 2-1
Gary on Aggro Loam: 2-1
James on Storm: 1-2

4-3 final record.

1) Deck felt solid, but Elves feels extremely tough.

2) TNN was a house

3) Sequencing lands is hard and I totally ruined myself g3 vs Miracles, though my opponent had a good hand that probably could have dealt with what I could have played anyways

4) All matchups were very close (except Elves, that time I just got stomped).

Though this was a fun take, I think I'll switch back to BUG Delver for the GP. Thanks for reading!

[Nola]

Andrea Mengucci playing the Sultai Control for second time.

This is list was the same that Lukas played at GP Madrid.

He made a few missplays, but in the end, who never did?! =P

Anyway, is a good source of info.

https://www.channelfireball.com/videos/sultai-control-legacy-channel-mengucci-2/

[meffeo]

Everything we need to know about Sultai Leovold in Legacy (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=14545&writer=Lukas+Blohon&articledate=4-2-2018), according to Lukas Blohon.

His approach is really BUG Delver-ish with 4 Tourach MB, even though a full playset of Ponders looks a bit too much. I still see a Liliana of the Veil as a fine replacement for the 4th copy of the cantrip.

Talking about the sideboard, the inclusion of a Nihil Spellbomb over the 3rd SE is probably a way to have an answer to Ground Seal decks (see ANT) and even if it's a bit slower than the terrific Phyrexian spell, his decision makes sense to me. What I don't like? Toxic Deluge.

[Nola]

Hey, Guys!

A BUG Midrange pilot and other 3 players split the top 4 at 3k tournament.

(http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=18893&d=318343&f=LE)

It's Nice to see the deck raise in popularity :D

[FlinkerMomonga]

Hey guys I'm new to 'The Source' and I first wanted to play BUG Delver before I found this sweet BUG Control pile.
Unfortunately, I don't have any experience with this list but I played Czech Pile before so I'm a little bit familiar with the playstyle.
I stopped playing Czech because of the greedy manabase and the lack of wastelands. I'm glad that BUG Control manages to do all the things I missed.

Here's my first approach for BUG Control (it's based on the Blohon list):

4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island
3 Wasteland

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 True-Name Nemesis

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will

4 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Thoughtseize

1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Flusterstorm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Life from the Loam
2 Hydroblast
2 Marsh Casualties
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize


I thought of replacing one Hymn for a second Thoughtseize in the Maindeck.
I'm also not sure about the 3 Abrupt Decays. I like the full playset of Fatal Push from Blohon's List but I hate chalice on 1 so much that I decided to play a 3-3 split.
What's your experience with 2 Decay - 4 Push? Are 3 Decays too clunky?

[csanders]

Hi All,

Just wondering how the DnT matchup seems to be for you guys. I playtested about 13 games last night against two different DnT players, and managed to drop every single game. The match seems to just devolve into who sticks Crusader or TrueName first.

Admittedly, I'm still learning the deck... coming from a stint playing BUG Delver instead. Maybe I'm just having a hard time adjusting my play to the different deck.

My list is not quite the "standard", as I don't currently have access to Snapcaster or a second Jace.

Main
15 Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 True-Name Nemesis

4 Planeswalkers
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

20 Spells
4 Brainstorm
2 Fatal Push
3 Ponder
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Force of Will

21 Lands
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Duress
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Dread of Night
1 Golgari Charm
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Tsabo's Web
1 Sylvan Library

I think I should add a couple of Marsh Casualties in SB, possibly in place of Dread or Charm.

Any advice?

[EJexpresss]

Hi All,

Just wondering how the DnT matchup seems to be for you guys. I playtested about 13 games last night against two different DnT players, and managed to drop every single game. The match seems to just devolve into who sticks Crusader or TrueName first....

Any advice?
Play more Jitte. With 3 TNN, I'd want 1 MD and an additional in the board.

I love the 2x Marsh Casualties in my board for DnT/TNN/Pyro/Elves, but Dread is def better vs. DnT specifically. I do think MC is better than Charm (vs. DnT and in general). But the real answer is more Jitte.

[robx13]

Hey all,

Picked up Sultai midrange again and been playing it at my locals at Dark Sphere, London the last few weeks.

Key feature is 3 Daze, no planeswalkers. In short, just trying to leverage Wastelands against fair decks, more T1 interaction against broken stuff, don't think PWs are necessary to win in a TNN deck, easy to side Dazes out. This is a non-negotiable aspect of the deck for me now. If I want to play a Jace deck I'll play miracles instead (though I could see playing 1 in the 75 somewhere anyway, not two). Currently the Jitte is the 60th card in the deck, could be a Snapcaster, 4th TNN, 2nd Tombstalker, 2nd Library... and I'm currently torn between Abrupt Decay/Pithing Needle/Null Rod (and swapping the Jitte) as the 15th sideboard card. Otherwise I feel very good about the list. I'm 8-3-1 the last three weeks, but it could be better as I'd say at least one of those losses was certainly winnable and the draw too was avoidable as I could/should have won the G1.

Two reasons I'm posting. I'm not looking for feedback or suggestions about the list for now really, but suggesting it as a different take on the deck that people may or may not want to try. Daze without Delver does look wonky but I honestly think its a necessity if you're trying to have game against everything in the format (which I am).


4-0 at my local this week with the following list, taking me to 19-4-1 in paper events with the deck the 5 of the last 6 weeks that I've played it:

https://i.imgur.com/vfCS45j.png

R1 vs. Food Chain: 2-1
R2 vs. Miracles: 2-0
R3 vs. Goblins: 2-1
R4 vs. Temur Delver: 2-0

The main deck is more or less locked for EU Eternal Weekend and GP Birmingham, but I don't think the Lili in the board is at all necessary owning to 3 TNNs and 3 sweepers for creature matchups, and I'll go back to either a Decay or a Flustersorm in that slot next time I play.

[Cpt_Lucifer]

4-0 at my local this week with the following list, taking me to 19-4-1 in paper events with the deck the 5 of the last 6 weeks that I've played it:

https://i.imgur.com/vfCS45j.png

R1 vs. Food Chain: 2-1
R2 vs. Miracles: 2-0
R3 vs. Goblins: 2-1
R4 vs. Temur Delver: 2-0

The main deck is more or less locked for EU Eternal Weekend and GP Birmingham, but I don't think the Lili in the board is at all necessary owning to 3 TNNs and 3 sweepers for creature matchups, and I'll go back to either a Decay or a Flustersorm in that slot next time I play.Mostly play BUG Delver but dable with BUG Control cause at some point you get annoyed when Delver doesnt flip...


This list looks interesting, like its leaning towards Delver side of things with Dazes and no Planeswalkers main.

How is your Lands matchup?

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[battousai555]

Hey, y'all. Just got BUG Control and was wondering if you guys knew of anyone who streams it. I know I need to practice with it a bunch, but I feel like I learn a lot quicker by watching other people play. Thanks.

[Amazingxkcd]

is it worth trying to find space for spell pierces? Id really love to have access to that MB if possible

[Cpt_Lucifer]

is it worth trying to find space for spell pierces? Id really love to have access to that MB if possibleAre you not main boarding a Flusterstorm already?

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[meffeo]

Saw a pretty spicy Bug Ctrl deck with the Marit Lage package (Crop Rotations + utility lands) and wasn't able to find the proper thread. Should we discuss it right here?

[Nola]

Saw a pretty spicy Bug Ctrl deck with the Marit Lage package (Crop Rotations + utility lands) and wasn't able to find the proper thread. Should we discuss it right here?

This one? (http://www.buglands.com/)

[Amazingxkcd]

Are you not main boarding a Flusterstorm already?

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

you mainboard flusterstorms?

[meffeo]

This one? (http://www.buglands.com/)

True indeed. It may add another angle of attack to the deck. Moreover, I like the instant-speed tutorable answers in form of Bog/Cabal Pit/combo piece. But why 61 cards :eyebrow:

[battousai555]

Hey, I'm currently on the Dezani list that got 2nd at GP Seattle and was wondering in what match-ups Bitterblossom shines. So far the only ones I can think of are Lands, Miracles, and Czech Pile. Is it worth it vs. Grixis? Losing life every turn sucks, but the fact that I can chump everything but TNN each turn seems decent. Thoughts?

[ReinhardtGao]

4-0 at my local this week with the following list, taking me to 19-4-1 in paper events with the deck the 5 of the last 6 weeks that I've played it:

https://i.imgur.com/vfCS45j.png

R1 vs. Food Chain: 2-1
R2 vs. Miracles: 2-0
R3 vs. Goblins: 2-1
R4 vs. Temur Delver: 2-0

The main deck is more or less locked for EU Eternal Weekend and GP Birmingham, but I don't think the Lili in the board is at all necessary owning to 3 TNNs and 3 sweepers for creature matchups, and I'll go back to either a Decay or a Flustersorm in that slot next time I play.

Hey dude. Congrats.

Could u pls share more about how you defeat food chain? Any card from should be specially taken care of?

[robx13]

Hey dude. Congrats.

Could u pls share more about how you defeat food chain? Any card from should be specially taken care of?

Sure will do, travelling back from EW tomorrow, I'll post about it on Monday when I'm not so tired. Cheers!

[robx13]

Hey dude. Congrats.

Could u pls share more about how you defeat food chain? Any card from should be specially taken care of?

Sorry for the delay in replying.

Along with Aluren, it's a really tough matchup. The BUG Leovold mirrors are already basically a coin flip; one player draws more Deathrites and Leovolds than the other draws removal and then they win. But on top of that, Food Chain has a combo that you have to respect and also the value of Manipulate Fate > cast 3/3 flyers every turn which you basically can't beat. You're leaning on Hymn pretty heavily and trying to stick a TNN, Leo or Tombstalker early to win before they can recover. In addition, your Wastelands are mostly useless as they have access to 3-4 basics usually. Out of the board you want to be able to bring in 1-2x Marsh Casualties, 1x Toxic Deluge, 1x Snapcaster Mage, 1x Liliana the Last Hope and 1x Invasive Surgery as well as potentially the Painful Truths, Thoughtseizes and the Null Rod, which shuts off Walking Ballista but does little else. My last opponent had Relic Of Progenitus as well so I felt it was worth it but not sure overall. To make room, I'm sure I want to cut the Wastelands and a Diabolic Edict, and then some number of Dazes depending on play/draw, True-Names which gets a bit worse post board, and perhaps also the basic Island if you're feeling aggressive. Usually Force Of Will is the first thing I'd board out in a GB mirror, but stopping Manipulate Fate from resolving is too important and countering a Leovold is fine too; maybe 2-3 copies is sufficient however. I'm not entirely sure what's correct and could use more practice at it, but I hope that's helpful to you.

Onto Eternal Weekend... Earned a bye going 4-1 in a trial on the Friday morning. Results:

R1 vs. Grixis Delver: 2-0
R2 vs. ANT: 0-2 (I got totally outplayed by an excellent opponent, unsuprised to see them 5-0 the trial and at the top tables for most of the main event.)
R3 vs. Aluren: 2-1
R4 vs. Infect: 2-0 (I'm 4-0 against our local Infect player, have to believe it's an excellent matchup
R5 vs. Belcher 2-1

Main event ended up a relatively disappointing 6-3 for 38th place overall:

R1 BYE
R2 vs. Elves 1-2 (This is the first time I've ever lost to Elves with a BUG list, particularly frustrating as I fought back from being down 8 permanents vs. my 1 basic Swamp in G2 to put them DOB, only for them to topdeck their 1 remaining Nissa on the final turn. But it was a well-fought match by my opponent too so not to discredit them.)
R3 vs. Tin Fins 2-0
R4 vs. BUG Delver 2-0 (Fairly sure my opponent tried to cheat in G2, they were DOB, played a Tombstalker which I dazed, they tried to exile a card from their GY to pay for it. Judge simply ruled they couldn't do it, no warning even.)
R5 vs. Grixis Delver 1-2 (Played a terrible G3 and deserved to lose despite my opponent making some big mistakes too. Truth told I was feeling a bit off it this round and played a bit scared.)
R6 vs. Esper Deathblade 2-1
R7 vs. Miracles 2-1 (Against a friend who I consider probably one of the best Miracles players in the world, intense match, lots of fun! Got pretty lucky to win it in time!)
R8. vs. Sneak and Show 2-0
R9. vs BUG midrange 1-2 (Leovold mirrors are dumb, none of the games were particularly close)

The list was the same except for a 1-of Stifle in the board over the Liliana, because I was expecting a fair amount of Turbo-Depths and also it's a useful card against Grixis Delver, Storm and Miracles and totally reasonable to just side in anytime you're on the play against a deck with fetchlands. It didn't disappoint. Moving forwards, I really want to find space for a second Tombstalker because it's basically the best card in the deck when you can resolve it and the best realistic mirror-breaker. I've cut the Spell Pierce for now which can be a little too high variance and doesn't mesh with the tap-out style of the rest of the deck. In the sideboard, I'm fine with the Stifle but I'm still looking for other options. If I can get my hands on one in time I'm going to try a Liliana's Defeat for tonight's local event as another card for DRS/Leovold/Gurmag Angler decks where the main way that you lose is due to your opponent sticking one of those cards.

Any further questions about matchups, please ask away!

[robx13]

Mostly play BUG Delver but dable with BUG Control cause at some point you get annoyed when Delver doesnt flip...


This list looks interesting, like its leaning towards Delver side of things with Dazes and no Planeswalkers main.

How is your Lands matchup?

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It's fine, relatively speaking, definitely better than if you're playing Delver with the extra TNNs and basics. Actually the lands (and D&T) matchups are why I switched off of Sultai Delver to start with. You're right, it's basically just a delverless Delver deck.

[ReinhardtGao]

Sorry for the delay in replying.

Along with Aluren, it's a really tough matchup. The BUG Leovold mirrors are already basically a coin flip; one player draws more Deathrites and Leovolds than the other draws removal and then they win. But on top of that, Food Chain has a combo that you have to respect and also the value of Manipulate Fate > cast 3/3 flyers every turn which you basically can't beat. You're leaning on Hymn pretty heavily and trying to stick a TNN, Leo or Tombstalker early to win before they can recover. In addition, your Wastelands are mostly useless as they have access to 3-4 basics usually. Out of the board you want to be able to bring in 1-2x Marsh Casualties, 1x Toxic Deluge, 1x Snapcaster Mage, 1x Liliana the Last Hope and 1x Invasive Surgery as well as potentially the Painful Truths, Thoughtseizes and the Null Rod, which shuts off Walking Ballista but does little else. My last opponent had Relic Of Progenitus as well so I felt it was worth it but not sure overall. To make room, I'm sure I want to cut the Wastelands and a Diabolic Edict, and then some number of Dazes depending on play/draw, True-Names which gets a bit worse post board, and perhaps also the basic Island if you're feeling aggressive. Usually Force Of Will is the first thing I'd board out in a GB mirror, but stopping Manipulate Fate from resolving is too important and countering a Leovold is fine too; maybe 2-3 copies is sufficient however. I'm not entirely sure what's correct and could use more practice at it, but I hope that's helpful to you.

Onto Eternal Weekend... Earned a bye going 4-1 in a trial on the Friday morning. Results:

R1 vs. Grixis Delver: 2-0
R2 vs. ANT: 0-2 (I got totally outplayed by an excellent opponent, unsuprised to see them 5-0 the trial and at the top tables for most of the main event.)
R3 vs. Aluren: 2-1
R4 vs. Infect: 2-0 (I'm 4-0 against our local Infect player, have to believe it's an excellent matchup
R5 vs. Belcher 2-1

Main event ended up a relatively disappointing 6-3 for 38th place overall:

R1 BYE
R2 vs. Elves 1-2 (This is the first time I've ever lost to Elves with a BUG list, particularly frustrating as I fought back from being down 8 permanents vs. my 1 basic Swamp in G2 to put them DOB, only for them to topdeck their 1 remaining Nissa on the final turn. But it was a well-fought match by my opponent too so not to discredit them.)
R3 vs. Tin Fins 2-0
R4 vs. BUG Delver 2-0 (Fairly sure my opponent tried to cheat in G2, they were DOB, played a Tombstalker which I dazed, they tried to exile a card from their GY to pay for it. Judge simply ruled they couldn't do it, no warning even.)
R5 vs. Grixis Delver 1-2 (Played a terrible G3 and deserved to lose despite my opponent making some big mistakes too. Truth told I was feeling a bit off it this round and played a bit scared.)
R6 vs. Esper Deathblade 2-1
R7 vs. Miracles 2-1 (Against a friend who I consider probably one of the best Miracles players in the world, intense match, lots of fun! Got pretty lucky to win it in time!)
R8. vs. Sneak and Show 2-0
R9. vs BUG midrange 1-2 (Leovold mirrors are dumb, none of the games were particularly close)

The list was the same except for a 1-of Stifle in the board over the Liliana, because I was expecting a fair amount of Turbo-Depths and also it's a useful card against Grixis Delver, Storm and Miracles and totally reasonable to just side in anytime you're on the play against a deck with fetchlands. It didn't disappoint. Moving forwards, I really want to find space for a second Tombstalker because it's basically the best card in the deck when you can resolve it and the best realistic mirror-breaker. I've cut the Spell Pierce for now which can be a little too high variance and doesn't mesh with the tap-out style of the rest of the deck. In the sideboard, I'm fine with the Stifle but I'm still looking for other options. If I can get my hands on one in time I'm going to try a Liliana's Defeat for tonight's local event as another card for DRS/Leovold/Gurmag Angler decks where the main way that you lose is due to your opponent sticking one of those cards.

Any further questions about matchups, please ask away!

Thanks for you sharing! It was a tough game against food chain and aluren when I was playing Team America. And I was thinking of how would it goes with BUG control. Now seems it would still be an issue but it should be better than that for TA.

Several question(might a little bit basic but want to discuss w/ this chance:):
1. Which land do you often fetch at the beginning of the game? Will you try to fetch basic first to avoid wasteland/blood moon?
2. I used to have daze in my deck but it looks tricky when the game goes longer. What do you think? Is spell pierce works better than JD's Flusterstorm in main?

Share my current list here:) https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1009027#paper

[robx13]

Thanks for you sharing! It was a tough game against food chain and aluren when I was playing Team America. And I was thinking of how would it goes with BUG control. Now seems it would still be an issue but it should be better than that for TA.

Several question(might a little bit basic but want to discuss w/ this chance:):
1. Which land do you often fetch at the beginning of the game? Will you try to fetch basic first to avoid wasteland/blood moon?
2. I used to have daze in my deck but it looks tricky when the game goes longer. What do you think? Is spell pierce works better than JD's Flusterstorm in main?

Share my current list here:) https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1009027#paper

1) Fetching is tough in any Legacy deck of course. In general, against an unknown opponent I prefer to just fetch my duals, especially if I have a Deathrite Shaman. The basic Island is REALLY bad on turn 1 as it prevents you from casting Hymn on T2 so try not to fetch that if possible. I'm quite happy to just fetch-pass on T1 against an unknown rather than cast something like a Ponder, that way you get more information before you make you fetching decision, and what you're looking for with the Ponder as well.
2) This deck's 'late-game' is True-Name Nemesis, Leovold and Tombstalker, all of which have a nasty habit of making most of the game's subsequent draws obsolete, from both players. Because of this, the late-game Daze is rarely a problem, and is sometimes even actively good when teamed up with Wastelands as well for keeping your opponent off of their catchup spells. Typically, in most BUG lists such as your own, you're running PWs in these slots instead. While that does give you a better lategame, I find it to be uneccessary in these colours because usually, keeping your opponent off what they're doing and following up with one of the big creatures is usually enough, while a card like Jace I find to be sort of win more, because when you're resolving a 4 mana sorcery speed permanent and have the board clear enough to protect it, you're usually winning anyway. Daze on the other hand, helps you to get to the mid game against combo decks and is crucial against Delver strategies where your mana is under pressure. Sure, it can be a terrible topdeck but it's one of the best cards to see in you're opening hand, and with this list many of the games are effectively won or lost by turns 3-5. Now, if you've decided you do definitely want to play with Jace and Lili in your deck, then I wouldn't recommend Daze and prefer more discard such as Thoughtseize, as you've chosen to do. I will however say that at GP Birmingham this past weekend, Daze was a huge overperformer, not only in the work that it did do, but also the number of times where having one in hand would have won me games (and matches) that I ended up losing. I suppose the other side of that is that it's inherently a somewhat high variance card, but so are many of Legacy's most powerful cards.

About Spell Pierce, I think it is better than Fluster yes. You really need answers to Chalice and opposing Blood Moons and Planeswalkers, all of which are huge problems. In this style of deck without much play at instant speed to build storm, Flusterstorm functionally ends up being the same as Spell Pierce against most instants/sorceries anyway, and combo matchups are already quite solid over a 3-game match. Having said that, the Pierce is the 60th card in the main and I could certainly see wanting more discard or removal (but not another Daze, I've tried from 2-4 and 3 feels the perfect number).

A quick report from GP Birmingham, where I had my worst run with this deck to date, going 4-4. The list was again unchanged in the main and I played the 3rd Abrupt Decay as the 15th sideboard card; if I were to register it again tomorrow that's the list I'd go with, I can't see where to improve it further.

R1 vs. Moon Stompy 1-2
R2 vs. Slow Depths 2-1
R3 vs. Death & Taxes 0-2
R4 vs. Lands 2-1
R5 vs. UR Delver 2-1
R6 vs. BUG Delver 2-0
R7 vs. Grixis Delver 1-2
R8 vs. BUG Midrange 1-2

I have a simple rule in Magic not to blame luck for my results so I won't; I lost all 4 of those matches fair and square. Terrible result but that's life. For the time being though, no more Deathrites, True-Names, Leos, Hymns or Wastelands for me. Best of luck to all working on the deck moving forwards!

[ReinhardtGao]

1) Fetching is tough in any Legacy deck of course. In general, against an unknown opponent I prefer to just fetch my duals, especially if I have a Deathrite Shaman. The basic Island is REALLY bad on turn 1 as it prevents you from casting Hymn on T2 so try not to fetch that if possible. I'm quite happy to just fetch-pass on T1 against an unknown rather than cast something like a Ponder, that way you get more information before you make you fetching decision, and what you're looking for with the Ponder as well.
2) This deck's 'late-game' is True-Name Nemesis, Leovold and Tombstalker, all of which have a nasty habit of making most of the game's subsequent draws obsolete, from both players. Because of this, the late-game Daze is rarely a problem, and is sometimes even actively good when teamed up with Wastelands as well for keeping your opponent off of their catchup spells. Typically, in most BUG lists such as your own, you're running PWs in these slots instead. While that does give you a better lategame, I find it to be uneccessary in these colours because usually, keeping your opponent off what they're doing and following up with one of the big creatures is usually enough, while a card like Jace I find to be sort of win more, because when you're resolving a 4 mana sorcery speed permanent and have the board clear enough to protect it, you're usually winning anyway. Daze on the other hand, helps you to get to the mid game against combo decks and is crucial against Delver strategies where your mana is under pressure. Sure, it can be a terrible topdeck but it's one of the best cards to see in you're opening hand, and with this list many of the games are effectively won or lost by turns 3-5. Now, if you've decided you do definitely want to play with Jace and Lili in your deck, then I wouldn't recommend Daze and prefer more discard such as Thoughtseize, as you've chosen to do. I will however say that at GP Birmingham this past weekend, Daze was a huge overperformer, not only in the work that it did do, but also the number of times where having one in hand would have won me games (and matches) that I ended up losing. I suppose the other side of that is that it's inherently a somewhat high variance card, but so are many of Legacy's most powerful cards.

About Spell Pierce, I think it is better than Fluster yes. You really need answers to Chalice and opposing Blood Moons and Planeswalkers, all of which are huge problems. In this style of deck without much play at instant speed to build storm, Flusterstorm functionally ends up being the same as Spell Pierce against most instants/sorceries anyway, and combo matchups are already quite solid over a 3-game match. Having said that, the Pierce is the 60th card in the main and I could certainly see wanting more discard or removal (but not another Daze, I've tried from 2-4 and 3 feels the perfect number).

A quick report from GP Birmingham, where I had my worst run with this deck to date, going 4-4. The list was again unchanged in the main and I played the 3rd Abrupt Decay as the 15th sideboard card; if I were to register it again tomorrow that's the list I'd go with, I can't see where to improve it further.

R1 vs. Moon Stompy 1-2
R2 vs. Slow Depths 2-1
R3 vs. Death & Taxes 0-2
R4 vs. Lands 2-1
R5 vs. UR Delver 2-1
R6 vs. BUG Delver 2-0
R7 vs. Grixis Delver 1-2
R8 vs. BUG Midrange 1-2

I have a simple rule in Magic not to blame luck for my results so I won't; I lost all 4 of those matches fair and square. Terrible result but that's life. For the time being though, no more Deathrites, True-Names, Leos, Hymns or Wastelands for me. Best of luck to all working on the deck moving forwards!

Thanks for your sharing. I haven’t had a chance to bring my deck to a big enough tournament yet, so it is so happy to see other players list and performance then think about the next step for me.

Last weekend I went to a local 10 players game with 5 round Swiss. I won stax, turbo depth and infect, but I lost against Grixis and Eldrazi because of mana stuck. My opening had no fetch but only dual land. As oppo wastelanded my land I got stuck all along. That’s why I’m thinking of which land to fetch first. After reading your post, I agree it is acceptable to fetch-go in T1 and put a pierce in hand as response. Will go more test about it.


从我的 iPhone 发送，使用 Tapatalk

[Rascalyote]

I usually play Maverick but I've been jamming this UB list on and off, it's been a lot of fun and usually gets me 3-1 at my weekly. Just got my first 4-0 with it beating TES, Enchantress (Oh boy), Miracles, ANT. Only green card(s) are the 4 DRS, 1 bayou, and the 1 sb Decay. I know the list is a bit of a brew/different but this seemed like the closest thread for it, sorry if it doesn't belong.



// 60 Maindeck
// 14 Creature
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Baleful Strix
2 True-Name Nemesis

// 13 Instant
3 Fatal Push
1 Diabolic Edict
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Spell Snare

// 20 Land
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
3 Wasteland
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Bloodstained Mire

// 4 Planeswalker
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana, the Last Hope

// 9 Sorcery
3 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Toxic Deluge


// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Artifact
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Pithing Needle

// 8 Instant
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 To the Slaughter
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Invasive Surgery
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay

// 5 Sorcery
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 1 Hymn to Tourach


Liliana I feel is really powerful in this meta (even though my matchups today don't reflect that at all lol) and is kind of the point of the deck- trade down 1for1 with removal/thoughtseize then get slowly ahead with snapcaster/strix and liliana picking those back up will pull you even farther ahead, she also acts as removal/stall and a win condition. 1of Jace because he's solid lategame and it's a nice out to Ensnaring Bridge. I played Tomb Stalker before but I swapped them for TNN because he pitches to force and is harder to kill, importantly he doesn't get mucked by plow, so a lot of the cards that kill him will let Liliana pick him back up.

I have wastelands so I have more of a fight against Dark Depths, and there's a lot of cards to bring in vs combo as there's a lot of cards to take out like the Lilianas, removal spells, etc. Maybe I can jam more hymns and Echoing Truth might be an odd sb card but w/e. Deck is a lot of fun to play, I played the same snapcaster mage 3 times vs ANT game 1 because I had Liliana uptick kill my own snapcaster -> -2 it back next turn. Hey, gotta give her a job in that game before I side her out haha.

[battousai555]

Went 2-1 today at my LGS's weekly with Denazi's list -1 Fluster, +1 Spell Pierce MB.

R1 vs. my friend's Cloudpost brew (with like 3 Candelabras, Ancient Stirrings, Hour of Promise, top end w/ Emrakul and such): 2-0
- G1 was pretty uneventful. Forced relevant things and beat/drained him to death w/ TNN and Deathrite. G2 was won with an early Wasteland on Cloudpost into Surgical.

R2 vs. Jund Depths: 2-0
- G1 was pretty grindy, but went similarly to G1 against Cloudpost. G2 was won quickly by drawing an early Life from the Loam coupled with Wasteland.

R3 vs. BUG Delver: 0-2
- G1 I kept drawing the worst possible hands, and went down to 4 damned cards. Not much to say there, other than I almost recovered somehow. G2 was super grindy and close, but ended up losing to a Golgari Charm off the top which cleared my TNN and 2 Strixes. Doesn't feel like a bad match-up; I just got unlucky.

The list feels quite strong, and I don't think I really want to make any other changes. I didn't think I'd ever play a control shell, but this is my new favorite deck.

[EJexpresss]

Andrea Mengucci featured a Daze version of the deck on CFB: https://www.channelfireball.com/videos/sultai-delverless-legacy-channel-mengucci/ . Some interesting games in there (mirror, Lands, Sneak and Show, Elves, B/G depths). He had access to some more aggressive lines against SnS that I might have considered (at one point he has DRS+Strix against his opponent on 12 with Jace and he chooses to attack down Jace instead of trying to close the game out, in another case his opponent responds to a Hymn with Brainstorm and Andrea can Force the Brainstorm to leave his opponent on 0 cards, but chooses instead to let him hide cards).

2x Jace and 3x Daze seems awkward - an aggressive list like robx13's seems much more appropriate if you want to be Dazing people. No TNN also seems suspect to me, tho he's rocking 2x Liliana the Last Hope MD to beat up on creature decks, so maybe it's fine. Personally, I've felt the TNN+Jitte plan is one of the big draws for this deck, but Liliana is also a major house and seems to fill a similar role.

[Xoila22]

Hi there. im a former Bug Delver player that turn to the dark side of control. My playstyle is more conservetive and grindy so i think it was a good change.
im going to put my list here and explain the reason of this configuration

BUG LEOVOLD

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Leovold Emissary of Trest

4 Brainstorm
4 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
3 Abrupt Decay

4 Ponder
4 Hymn to Tourach

2 Liliana the Last Hope
1 Jace TMS

3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Island
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest

2 Diabolic Edit
2 Golgari Charm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Disfigure
1 Life from the Loam
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hydroblast
2 Surgical Extration
1 Sylvan Library

POINT 1 : why tarmogoyf ? When i play tarmogoyf i fell like a waste of mana. its a defender and attaking machine that does nothing. but like force of will its a necessary evil. this deck need goyf because you need to aply pressure. grixis delver cannot control tarmogoyf . normally a 5/6 its a huge ammount of pressure and puts their true name and Angler on defense.

Point 2 : 4 Fatal Push + 3 Abrup Decay . this deck needs a lot of removal. you have to delay the game and the best way its to kill everything that matters in front of you. one more tome grixis delver have few creatures to deal with all this removal


Point 3 : 4 Hymn to Tourachs . 2 for one its allways good. against Chzek Pille and other Control matchups ( mirror / Miracles / Grixis Control ) its a mvp. the person that uses.their resourses at his best is the favored to win , and Hymn to Tourach dennies your oppponent to do so.

Point 4 : 2 Liliana 1 Jace. Liliana is a beast. its clears the way for your goyfs / brings back your dudes / every turn becomes more and more like a threat. Jace is jace


Point 5 : Sideboard . i Think its well balanced.

Against grixis we have plenty cards to take. 4 forces 2 hymn 1 Jace for 2 golgari 2 edit 1 disfigure 1 Life from the loam and 1 hydroblast.

Last week i've spllited in the finals ( for a challice of the void ) after a 3 -1-1 in the swiss and winning in the semis against ur delver.

Hope you enjoy my resumed explanation
Best Regards
Xoila22 / Ricardo Martins

[Ribo]

Dude wins a 88 player tournament in the Netherlands. Deck looks sweet. Did some test runs with it on xmage and its very promising.

https://www.facebook.com/dutchopenseries/photos/pcb.1363830067093942/1363829587093990/?type=3&theater

[whocansay]

Dude wins a 88 player tournament in the Netherlands. Deck looks sweet. Did some test runs with it on xmage and its very promising.

https://www.facebook.com/dutchopenseries/photos/pcb.1363830067093942/1363829587093990/?type=3&theater

Yeah, same for me - Tarmogoyf adds a much needed clock in my opinion. I don't feel like there are many terrible matchups for the deck so far but I'm fairly new to legacy so I might be wrong.

[battousai555]

Hey, I was wondering if anyone could give me some sideboarding help against Dragon Stompy. I'm playing basically the same list as what Ribo posted, except -1 Edict, +1 Blast. My current plan has been something along the lines of -2 Thoughtseize, -2 Leo, +2 Blast, +1 Deluge, +1 Lili. Not sure if that makes any sense at all, so I'd greatly appreciate any input.

[Manipulato]

Another great finish for the deck. Again with the "new" Tarmogoyf version (Which I personally dont think is good right now tbh but anyway...).

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=19413&d=323718&f=LE

[toffee]

Another great finish for the deck. Again with the "new" Tarmogoyf version (Which I personally dont think is good right now tbh but anyway...).

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=19413&d=323718&f=LE

Hi mates, he is my friend and he was very lucky in that tournament.....
So, the choice of Goyfs instead of Gurmag/3th TNN is because it gains a fast clock against combo/control/prison...It is good right now because of the increase of Red.
In my opinion I prefer to play 3 TNN with Jitte or 2 Gurmag Angler with 5 discard spells...but this is a subjective choice.

PS: he played with 61 cards...another subjective choice. (in a control deck I play also 61 cards eheh).

This is my list right now:


BUG ‘ANGLER’ CONTROL

4 polluted delta
4 verdant catacombs
1 misty rainforest
3 wasteland
3 underground sea
2 bayou
2 tropical island
1 island
1 swamp

4 deathrite shaman
3 baleful strix
2 leovold, emissary of trest
2 gurmag angler
1 snapcaster mage

2 jace, the mind sculptor
1 liliana, the last hope

4 force of will
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
3 hymn to tourach
2 thoughtseize
3 abrupt decay
2 fatal push
1 dismember
1 diabolic edict
1 toxic deluge
1 sylvan library

SIDEBOARD
2 surgical extraction
2 blue elemental blast
2 flusterstorm
1 engineered explosives
1 grafdigger’s cage
1 life from the loam
1 toxic deluge
1 golgari charm
1 leovold, emissary of trest
1 to the slaughter
1 liliana, the last hope
1 pithing needle

And the previous list:


BUG ‘NEMESIS’ CONTROL

4 polluted delta
4 verdant catacombs
1 misty rainforest
3 wasteland
3 underground sea
2 bayou
2 tropical island
1 island
1 swamp

4 deathrite shaman
4 baleful strix
3 true-name nemesis
2 leovold, emissary of trest
1 snapcaster mage

2 jace, the mind sculptor
1 liliana, the last hope

4 force of will
4 brainstorm
3 ponder
4 hymn to tourach
3 abrupt decay
2 fatal push
1 diabolic edict
1 umezawa’s jitte
1 sylvan library

SIDEBOARD
2 surgical extraction
2 blue elemental blast
2 flusterstorm
1 engineered explosives
1 grafdigger’s cage
1 life from the loam
1 toxic deluge
1 marsh casualties
1 leovold, emissary of trest
1 to the slaughter
1 liliana, the last hope
1 pithing needle


There are some differences between them. I don't know if it is better TNN or Gurmag right now...but I think that TNN with Jitte can helps with some aggro-midrange decks...
In addition...do u prefer the playset of Strix right now or only 3x-of?
What do u think about that?

[limbo]

Noble BUG version (http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/121670). Latest version has -2 daze, +2 hymn.

[FlinkerMomonga]

I had a nice 4-1 run in a smaller 27 player tournament in south Germany.

The matchups were:
ANT (0:2)
Nic Fit (2:1)
Maverick (2:1)
Czech Pile (2:0)
Tezzerator (2:1)

This was my list:

Mainboard
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island
3 Wasteland

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
1 Diabolic Edict

2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize

1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Marsh Casualties
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Flusterstorm
2 Hydroblast
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam

[Manipulato]

I had a nice 4-1 run in a smaller 27 player tournament in south Germany.

The matchups were:
ANT (0:2)
Nic Fit (2:1)
Maverick (2:1)
Czech Pile (2:0)
Tezzerator (2:1)

This was my list:

Mainboard
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Island
3 Wasteland

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Baleful Strix
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
3 True-Name Nemesis

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Force of Will

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
1 Diabolic Edict

2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize

1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Marsh Casualties
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Flusterstorm
2 Hydroblast
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam

Ah there he is http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=19447&d=324135&f=LE :wink:

Glad that BUG Midrange top 8ed this event because I talked to Marius Hausmann the day before and he told me that he didnt like the deck right now even if I showed him strong results :tongue: He prefered Moon Stompy which I call a "unconsistent piece of shit" and he went just 3:2, so :tongue:

Your list is really close to mine right now execpt for -1 TNN -1 Jitte for +1 SCM +1 Lili in the MD and -1 Library in the SB for a 4th Wasteland but I´m not sure atm if this is better than your configuration. I have to test and play this list again. My last experiences with the deck are 6 month old...But I totally agree on 3 AD MD right now just because all of those Chalice decks and also B2B, Choke and Blood Moon around.

Have you lost the first Top 8 match or went the other four decks better than 4:1?

Have you any feedback for us to share?

Greetings Franz

[FlinkerMomonga]

Have you lost the first Top 8 match or went the other four decks better than 4:1?

The other four decks just went better than me, we didn't play a Top 8 :tongue:


Have you any feedback for us to share?

Overall, I have to say that I really like my list as it is right now. Before the tournament, I considered adding 2 Goyfs and cut 1 TNN and 1 Jitte.
I did some testings on thursday and in every situation I drew them, Goyfs were extremely bad.

I tested 1 LTLH mainboard a few weeks ago but was never really happy with her.
There were too many situations were there were no creatures in my graveyard to get back or kill anything with +1.
In my opinion, she's a very good SB card for grindy matchups and of course Grixis Delver.
I think running a Jitte in this slot gives us much more flexibility G1. An early Jitte can close out the game very fast and causes some surprising wins.

ANT (0:2)
G1: Mulligan to 6 and no specific hate (I knew what he was playing but I was still too greedy)
G2: Mulligan to 5 and no hate again. But I felt happy to see at least 2 lands. I relied too much on brainstorm which he discarded turn 1. My Baleful Strix didn't draw me anything and he started to storm.

Nic Fit (1:2)
G1: Siege Rhino's trample made my TNN look like the worst card ever and killed me :laugh:
G2: I started with DRS which got exiled in his first turn. I wasted his Savannah, which was his only green source. From this point on, he was just way too slow and I had a lot of backups for whatever might have come.
G3: He got greedy and attacked with 2 Explorers and 1 Siege Rhino. I blocked his board to death with a DRS, Strix and TNN. I knew that Dromoka was his last card in hand, which got immediately handled with Diabolic Edict. After that he was in topdeck mode and I killed him with DRS + TNN.

Maverick (2:1)
G1: A very close game in which he had lethal on board but didn't see it. I took my chance and let TNN do its work.
G2: He was able to flood the board with a ton of creatures I wasn't able to handle.
G3: I started again with a DRS. He fetched for a Savannah and played a Mother of Runes. Turn 2, I destroyed his Savannah with Wasteland and was lucky enough to hit his second land with a Hymn to Tourach. After that he was screwed and I just ran away with the game.

Czech Pile (2:0)
G1: A turn 3 TNN is pretty hard for Czech Pile to deal with. He didn't find his Deluge and TNN easily beat him down.
G2: I played Czech Pile 3 months ago before I switched to BUG Control so I knew what one of the best ways to kill this deck is: get him off his red sources.
Without red, he wasn't able to handle my jace which won me the second game with the ultimate.

Tezzerator (2:1)
G1: An early Strix + Jitte took me far ahead and a TNN + Jace to an almost empty board put the final nail in the coffin.
G2: He started the game with a Leyline of the Void and was able to get his Helm of Obedience through two Transmute Artifact. Unfortunately, I just had one Force of Will.
G3: This game was extremely grindy. The Abyss and Chalice of the Void on 1 prevented me from playing Leovold and TNN. Strix on both sides stalled the game and my Jace's Ultimate finally finished the game for me once again.

[battousai555]

What do you guys think about this (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=19494&d=324554&f=LE) list that top 8'd a fairly large tournament yesterday? It looks like it utilizes Goyf well, but I'm not sure how I feel about losing TNN.

[toffee]

What do you guys think about this (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=19494&d=324554&f=LE) list that top 8'd a fairly large tournament yesterday? It looks like it utilizes Goyf well, but I'm not sure how I feel about losing TNN.


Hi!
I'm Fabio Aliprandi, the owner of this list.
I decided to play this list because of the increase of Red Prison, Delver decks, Combo and others...I prefer to reduce casting cost (only 1 jace and playset of goyf) against aggro/fast decks.
In every matchup GOYF was MVP. I've lost only 2 games(top8 against Mar and another 4c Control with decay)....Only in this game I would have liked to have TNN instead of Goyf.

So, in addition:
- To the slaughter: It is too strong right now (against 4c I played this one against Jace and DRS in Swiss). 2 Edicts maindeck help me to not to play dismember maindeck (4 life can be too much)
- Sylvan Library MD: I don't know the reason why all BUG players don't play this MD...It is one of the best cards ever printed.
- Split 3 (llveil,llhope,jace): the trio of wonders. LLVEIL instead of 4th tourach, llhope against small creatures, jace as engine.
- Tarmogoyf: Every time I played this one, I gave to my opponent a 3-turn clock. It is immense. In addition I can play Toxic Deluge maindeck with its.
- SIDEBOARD: my change will be -1EE +1BBLOSSOM, against lands, bg depths, 4c control. The others are crucial.
- NO SNAPCASTER MAGE: I think that this fantastic spell is too strong in 'RED' decks, not here. I prefered to cut it in order to have all responses maindeck (slaughter, deluge, pws etc.)

Swiss:
white stax 2-0
ur delver 2-1
4c control 1-2
burn 2-0
eldrazi 2-1
ant 2-1
sneak&show I.D.

TOP8
Mar Czech Pile 0-2 (maybe you willsee the feature match in a few days on youtube).

Do u want a small report? As soon as possible I'll do that.

[battousai555]

Hi!
I'm Fabio Aliprandi, the owner of this list.
I decided to play this list because of the increase of Red Prison, Delver decks, Combo and others...I prefer to reduce casting cost (only 1 jace and playset of goyf) against aggro/fast decks.
In every matchup GOYF was MVP. I've lost only 2 games(top8 against Mar and another 4c Control with decay)....Only in this game I would have liked to have TNN instead of Goyf.

So, in addition:
- To the slaughter: It is too strong right now (against 4c I played this one against Jace and DRS in Swiss). 2 Edicts maindeck help me to not to play dismember maindeck (4 life can be too much)
- Sylvan Library MD: I don't know the reason why all BUG players don't play this MD...It is one of the best cards ever printed.
- Split 3 (llveil,llhope,jace): the trio of wonders. LLVEIL instead of 4th tourach, llhope against small creatures, jace as engine.
- Tarmogoyf: Every time I played this one, I gave to my opponent a 3-turn clock. It is immense. In addition I can play Toxic Deluge maindeck with its.
- SIDEBOARD: my change will be -1EE +1BBLOSSOM, against lands, bg depths, 4c control. The others are crucial.
- NO SNAPCASTER MAGE: I think that this fantastic spell is too strong in 'RED' decks, not here. I prefered to cut it in order to have all responses maindeck (slaughter, deluge, pws etc.)

Swiss:
white stax 2-0
ur delver 2-1
4c control 1-2
burn 2-1
eldrazi 2-1
ant 2-1
sneak&show I.D.

TOP8
Mar Czech Pile 0-2 (maybe you willsee the feature match in a few days on youtube).

Do u want a small report? As soon as possible I'll do that.
To the Slaughter is amazing. Having a way to deal with a resolved Jace at instant-speed is just wonderful. Bitterblossom is a fucking house, and it also puts in work against Miracles.

I'd really appreciate a report! I'm particularly interested in how you sideboard. Looks like a fun list that I'm gonna have to take for a spin.