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catmint
11-09-2011, 08:01 AM
Primer
By catmint

Overview

BUG Control is an aggro-control deck built around Hymn to Tourach, Snapcaster Mage, Tarmogoyf and Jace, the Mind Sculptor which often utilizes the own life total aggressively to get an advantage/survive the early game and to stabilize with Jace and Goyf in the late game. The primary form or disruption is discard and efficient counter magic.

History:

The traditional control deck of BUG was deedstill, which is a more dedicated control deck without a fast clock but more board control with maindeck pernicious deed. The tempo version of BUG is Team America, which utilizes Stifle, Daze, Wasteland and a greedy manabase to get an early game advantage and to end the game quickly with Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker. After the banning of Mental misstep and the release of Snapcaster Mage BUG control (often mislabeled as Team America) had great results in the SCG circuit as well as in Europe.

Decklists:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7050&iddeck=51154
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7042&iddeck=51081
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7075&iddeck=51357
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7050&iddeck=51164

Card Choices:

Besides the obvious 4 Brainstorm and 4 Force of Will I would describe the core as:

4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hymn to Tourach
2-4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3-4 pointed discard such as Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek

Hymn to Tourach
Of course the power Level of Hymn is very high and needs no further explanation, but there are some design constraints which need to be considered to make it effective. First, in BUG it does not allow us to play basic lands and second it is only good if followed up by pressure like Jace or Tarmogoyf. Snapcaster Mage increases the power of Hymn to Tourach in control matchups significantly.

Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek
After the banning of mental misstep and the release of Snapcaster mage pointed discard got a lot better. A turn 1 Thoughtseize is again a feared play and “snapping back” a Thoughtseize is a real two for one and can be game breaking.

Spell Snare
It is always powerful to counter a turn 2 play, but with Snapcaster mage being a mid to late game card the overall utility of Spell Snare is increased.

Snapcaster Mage
A lot already written about this card. Just 1 remark for the power in BUG. BUG consists of counter spells, discard, removal, filter and win conditions. Snapcaster is all of that and increases the redundancy and consistency significantly.

Tarmogoyf
Still the best defensive and offensive creature in legacy. Especially when paired with [Thoughtseize] and Hymn he is usually a 4/5 when he comes down.

Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Decent Planeswalker…

Removal Suite:
4 Maindeck Removal Spells is very common. Snapcaster mage makes 1 mana removal significantly better than 2 mana removal. Snapping back Dismember hurts, but since it is sometimes possible to regulate the damage Dismember is still the best option. Ghastly Demise is the best removal spell versus non-black decks and since black creatures are not that common 1-2 in the maindeck and 4 in the 75 is probably correct. The other typical options Go for the throat, Diabolic Edict or Smother are of course also viable.

Flexible Slots

Sylvan Library
You have the feeling that a control deck is doing something wrong not running Sylvan Library. Since the deck gets trouble keeping up the blue count for Force of Will, often 1-2 Ponder are played instead.

Vendilion Clique
A beloved card of every control player, however it is yet another 3+ mana slot. The very aggressive and evasive body is useful, but the opponents hand can be much better controlled by snapping back discard spells.

Liliana of the Veil
Often found as a 1 of in maindeck and/or sideboard. She cannot replace a removal slot since a lot of creatures have to be killed early, but has the chance to take over the game versus creature based decks.

Unearth
With snapcasters and Tarmogoyfs (+ Vendilion Clique) it can be a real late game bomb. Unearth for snapcaster for unearth for Goyf/snapcaster for xxx,... For that to work a lot has to happen and also Swords to Plowshares spoils the party. So very often Unearth will be just cycled and very often sided out. Since it is not good against creature based decks, aggro and tempo, I do not consider it anymore.

Dark Confidant
In a vacuum probably the most powerful creature. The problem in BUG is that aggressive decks are already a difficult matchup and the self-inflicted damage of (snapped back) Thoughtseize and Dismember result in suicide. I prefer Thoughtseize and Dismember over Bob, because
- these cards are very powerful in a vacuum and important to survive the early game.
- card advantage can be achieved by Hymn to Tourach, Snapcaster mage and Jace
- Since BUG has trouble with aggressive decks, I prefer to play cards which helps against that matchup.

There are however many successful builds out there running Bob. They usually play only 2 Jace, less lands & some amount of Daze. Bob becomes then the primary gameplan and other card choices are influenced by it.

Ancestral Visions
I never tested it, but also did not see it in a build that showed up a good result. Probably too slow, not necessary and no synergy with Snapcaster mage.

Cards that do not have a good synergy with the deck.

Tombstalker
Some tried it and claim that it works as a 2-3 of, however there is not friendship with Snapcaster Mage and the deck does not lack of good finishers.

Daze
Snapcaster Mage needs all the lands in play and you cannot snap it back for alternative costs.

Stifle
Very often a bad top deck in the late game and only really good with Daze in a tempo oriented build.

Manabase
As every good control deck BUG wants to consistently make land drops. Therefore 23-24 lands is optimal. Because of Hymn it is not possible to play basics, which forces us to play through Wastelands. Snapcaster Mage is mana intensive and therefore wastelands are often not played as aggressive as in tempo decks. However Wasteland is so powerful that 3-4 is correct. Riptide Laboratory has a good synergy with Snapcaster mage providing “infinite” utility and blocks and is therefore often included. Since this synergy is very heavy on the mana, the question if it is worth to run this over the 4th Wasteland. Sunken Ruins can help to support 4 colorless lands. For builds low on creatures Creeping tar pit is a very useful addition.

The manabase forces you to consider hate in many matchups and make sure you don’t lose to Back to Basics, Blood Moon or a Wasteland lock with Crucible of Worlds or Life from the Loam


Sideboard
It is important to spend a lot of sideboard space to aggro and creature based matchups. So board control with additional removal and 3-4 pernicious deed is obligatory. Since Dredge is a bad matchup 4 Leyline of the Void is played commonly, however there are other decks that utilize the graveyard, where 4 Leyline would be weak. Therefore a mix of 3-4 extirpate and surgical extraction and of course the standard GY hate is the alternative. surgical extraction has obviously a good synergy with Snapcaster mage.

Other popular choices are Life from the Loam for the mirror or every deck that can be hurt with wastelands and of course Spell Pierce to have sideboard options versus combo and control.
I don’t want to go into detailed SB planning, but there is one important concept when it comes to the aggro or creature based matchups:

The plan is to make sure you can consistently trade 1 for 1 (or 2 for 1 with Snapcaster) to survive and to kill critical creatures such as Goblin Lackey, Mother of Runes, Lord of Atlantis, Knight of the Reliquary, Phyrexian Revoker, Goblin Piledriver, Quasali Pridemage,... until you can blow them out with a deed and take over with Jace, Liliana or Goyf.

To make sure this plan works you also need pointed discard and counter magic such as Thoughtseize and spell pierce to make sure you are not blown out by choke, back to basics, goblin ringleader, or a spell to kill your deed…
Hymn to Tourach is not very good against aggro since:

1) we often need to kill the creature that is on-board in order to survive and execute our Gameplan (i.e.: playing Hymn while Cursecatcher, mother of runes, goblin lackey, knight of the reliquary,... is on board has little value.)

2) we don't need card advantage in the early game, because we just need to survive to gain a huge advantage later on from Snapcaster, jace and Deed.

2) pointed discard and counter spells are more important to ensure deed works and we are not blown out by Back to Basics, Choke, Pridemage or whatever.

Matchup analysis

Good Matchups:

Most Combo Decks
A lot of (black) disruption followed by a clock is what provides basically a good matchup.
Storm combo variants are weak to BUG.

Entchantress is in a fact a prison deck, but since it needs some special enablers to work, it can be disrupted like a combo deck.

Show & Tell variants or other 2 card combo decks like Aluren, Cephalid Breakfast are a little harder since they often run more disruption of their own and also have the option of splashing red, which helps against Snapcaster and counter magic, because of Pyroblast from the sideboard.

Elves is tough game1, but deed and more removal makes the matchup favorable. If the build is using Vengevine, I would label the matchup only slightly favorable.


Even to Slightly Favorable Matchups

Painted Stone
This combo deck is on the tougher side, since discard is only good if there is no Goblin Welder on the table and they also have some hate in the form of Blood Moon and Pyroblast.

Reanimator
Altough this is a combo deck I find it to be a tough fight. They are fast, have Daze and black disruption. Also our discard is weaker, since they want stuff in their graveyard.

Blade Control
I find this matchup to be very draw and skill dependent. A lot of black disruption in the early rounds can often bring enough advantage. I would not try to be the aggro deck because they can so easily trade with Goyf or even take him with Vedalken Shackles, but rather just win the Jace war. However, then you have to bring in removal and make sure that they don’t play the aggro deck and beat you down with cliques.

Counterbalance variants
The lock definitely hurts, however it should be possible to stop that from happening often enough. With Krosan Grip there is also a very good SB option on curve available.

Stax
The deck has many locks that can win the game, but discard, counter magic, Goyf and Jace turn the matchup slightly in favor I think.

Team America
We run a ton of lands and have a better plan for the late game, but close by nature. ?

Chalice based Stompy decks
Chalice hurts a lot and dragon Stompy has a ton of moon effects. Nevertheless discard, counter magic and deed help and these decks are much less consistent than BUG.

Eva Green
Blue makes the difference…

RUG Control
I think black discard brings the advantage for the control matchup. Punishing Fire can be real pain in the ass though.

RUG Tempo
I think this matchup is also very skill and draw dependant. Key is not to walk into their stifles and to get some lands down. G2 and G3 we need to bring in more removal and deed, where Spell Snare and Force of Will are not good. A lot of removal and deed help to kill the threats and the black disruption works wonders. Thanks to Jace, Snapcaster their odds for the late game are very low.

Slightly unfavorable matchups

Non blue Stoneforge decks like Junk, Deadguy Ale and Team Italia
There are some powerful creatures like Mother, Bob, KoR, Mirran Cruisader,… which give them the edge.
This matchup is all about deed in g2 and 3.

Goblins
Deed and Discard is very reliable against Goblins, which makes the matchup not as unfavorable as it seems.

Affinity
G1 is very hard, but post board deed kills everything plus lands on their side, so the matchup is overall only slightly unfavorable.

Bant aggro
Stoneforge mystic and of course KoR represent serious threats. Their Jace also comes down pretty fast is can be protected with their creatures. This gives a huge advantage on board which has to be matched with discard, deed and removal.
I haven't really tested a lot, but my estimation is that Bant has an advantage.

Maverick
KoR win’s the game alone and BUG can’t beat a Mother in g1. The other hate bears do not make it easier. G2 and 3 is much better with deed and a ton of removal, but they have plenty of stuff to fight that plus choke and sylvan library.


Bad matchups

Basically BUG has problems against every match where Force of Will AND Hymn to Tourach is bad. The following decks have a lot of redundancy and do not care so much about discard, because they beat BUG with what is on the board already.

Merfolk
Well, Lord of Atlantis, Silvergill Adept &Cursecatcher are really strong. They have counter magic and a fast clock to fight deed and of course back to basics to blow us out.

Zoo
Haven’t played a single time against Zoo post MM banning, but by nature the matchup is weak.

Burn
The cheapest deck in the format just beats one of the most expensive ones, because of too much self-inflected damage and cards like Price of Progress. Nothing you can do about that.


Dredge (even worse Manaless Dredge)
G1 is almost unwinnable. Having Leylines is good, but most people try to win with Extirpate effects + Snapcaster Mage to reuse them. This has proven to be winnable g2/g3, but it is still very tough.



http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh58/pokemonuserbarsproject/bugbanner-1.png

BUG Planeswalkers - Primer

by death

BUG Planeswalkers is a control deck similar to its predecessor UBg Landstill except the Standstill and Mishra's Factory are dropped in favor of Liliana of the Veil and Snapcaster Mage. The printing of decent "Flash" creatures has made Standstill in legacy a less reliable card advantage engine. A major strength of this deck are the maindeck Pernicious Deeds, a card that is not normally seen in Team America-style control decks as it blows up their own Goyfs and Dark Confidants. But, not having a fast clock in the form of Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker may also present as a weakness.

This deck has made a handful of top finishes to brag, not surprisingly it had been mislabeled as Team America:
http://starcitygames.com/scgdc/ (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&feedin=44&start=1&finish=16&event_ID=20&city=Washington) Nicholas Spagnolo - 8th Place SCG Open Washington
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/ (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7894) Marco Cammilluzzi - First Place D-Day V in Italy
http://www.wizards.com/gpind12/ (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpind12/day2#9) Lewis Laskin - 20th Place GP Indianapolis 2012

Feature Articles:
Analyzing Dark Ascension & the Future Legacy Metagame (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=10376)
Deck Tech: BUG Control with Nicholas Spagnolo (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_bug_control_with_nic.html)
Deck Tech: BUG Control with Lewis Laskin (http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpind12/day2#9)

Sample decklist
// Lands
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

// Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

// Spells
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
1 Duress
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Darkblast
2 Ghastly Demise
3 Innocent Blood
1 Life from the Loam
3 Pernicious Deed

// Sideboard
1 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Perish
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Leyline of the Void
4 Blue Elemental Blast


Reason to play the deck
Playing pure control elements puts you on a favorable position against aggro and combo. Against aggro, you should not have any problems if they overextend and you stabilize with Deed and Liliana. Against combo, your pointed discard and counter suite combined with Liliana (or Jace) should be enough to stop them dead in their tracks.

Matchup Analysis
Favorable - Affinity, Elves, Goblins, Merfolk
You play with tons of answers in the form of discard, removal spells and a sweeper (Pernicious Deed). If they don't overextend into your mass removal, Liliana of the Veil would take care of their remaining threats. Affinity is an extremely fast deck but I have never lost to it in testing. Draw enablers in Elves are must-counters, same goes for Aether Vial in tribal decks. Goblins and Merfolk are reduced to playing fair if you take Lackey and Lord effects out of the equation.

Favorable - Reanimator, Show and Tell, Enchantress, Painter
Again your pinpoint discard spells paired with countermagic should prevent them from resolving key spells. Since the success of those decks hinges on resolving a single creature and riding it to victory, your non-targeted removal (Innocent Blood) creates a problem for them as you take out creatures with Shroud/protection ability. Ghastly Demise shouldn't have any difficulty in dealing with Painter's Servant.

Variable - UWx Stoneblade, RUG Tempo, Maverick
Results against these decks are varied. Mainly because these are what pros (and poor players as well) play. These decks run Wastelands which could spell disaster if you're stuck on a hand with no Brainstorm since control decks for a fact rely on a number of lands to effectively play the control role. Playing around Stifle is not only crucial in establishing your mana resource but also in stabilizing the board. Pernicious Deed is an important tool here, it's value becomes clearer after you are able to get rid of multiple Nimble Mongoose and Delver of Secrets. Engineered Explosives set at 0 can deal with germ tokens and Insectile Aberrations. In Maverick, if there's a card to fear coming from their sideboard, it's Choke. Be prepared to save Spell Pierces for this card even if you draw your discard spells and cast an early Deed on the table to prevent a potential mishap.

Unfavorable - Burn, Dredge
Burn can put your lights out very quickly. I've managed to win against Burn once by fatesealing him after he blew off his lands for Fireblasts. Post sideboarding, they can bring in REBs or worse Sulfuric Vortex. There's nothing you can do aside from making them discard and counter their burn spells. They can simply win by topdecking and hitting your dome. Against Goblin Guides, let the triggers resolve first to draw extra cards before doing any Snapcaster Mage tricks with Ghastly Demise during combat. While dying Snapcaster Mages would remove Bridges from Below, your discard spells and Lilianas are basically helping Dredge in this matchup.

Card selection
Manabase - 22,23 lands
The deck may play manlands, but generally 22 lands is the minimum for a control deck without them. With only Brainstorm and no Ponder means that land count below this number is dangerously low. Basics aren't mandatory but you may run a singleton Island since this deck has no turn 2 Hymn to Tourach play. Be ready to fetch an Underground Sea so you can cast all your 1-mana blue and black spells. Likewise, tapping your Tropical Island/Bayous first and leaving an Underground Sea open is ideal since all your Instants are of this color.

Wasteland - It is wiser to save this land and use it in protecting your Planeswalkers rather than use it to try to color screw an opponent, especially when you know your opponent is on Tempo. You cannot win if you don't have enough lands in play and they will always have the cheaper threats than you. It is better to save this land and use it only to destroy manlands or Grove of the Burnwillows.

2 Mishra's Factory/1 Creeping Tar Pit - the more common configuration to beef up on offense. It is advisable to cut a Wasteland to accommodate this package in a 23-land build. The more non-colored mana sources there are, the lesser odds you have in actually casting spells. If removal is not part of your opponent's arsenal or if you have already depleted their hand, Creeping Tar Pit is likely enough to win the game or at least take down an opposing Planeswalker.

Enchantments
Pernicious Deed - As previously mentioned, the strength of the deck is due in part to this card. What makes it better than Damnation is that is blows up pesky enchantments and artifacts, like Pithing Needle naming a Planeswalker. It's downside is that it takes a turn to activate and it doesn't remove recurring and regenerating creatures from the game. It's still better than Maelstrom Pulse because it can wipe the board clean to pave the way for your Snapcaster Mages and Vendilion Clique.

Night of Souls' Betrayal - Single-handedly takes down Delvers, Mothers, Hierarchs and tokens. A Stoneforge Mystic equipped with a Jitte will do nothing. This enchantment comes down a little too late against Goblins and Elves. However, Night of Souls' Betrayal stays after a Deed destroys all creatures, artifacts and enchantments with converted mana cost 3 or less, unlike Engineered Plague and Dread of Night.

Creatures
0-2,3 Snapcaster Mage/1 Vendilion Clique - Snapcaster Mage adds dimension to a control deck. All of a sudden full sets of Standstill and Factories have become out-of-date. Prior to this card's printing you only run 3-4 of each instant and sorcery, now there's virtually 6 or 8 of each. Vendilion Clique is pseudo-Snapcaster + instant speed disruption, packing more punch and evasion. Flash can be in response to spells on the stack (Standstill, Show and Tell, Orim's Chant or Silence) or activation (Aether Vial, Stoneforge Mystic, Jace Brainstorm).

Scavenging Ooze - a Reanimator or Dredge player would not expect to see this card coming from the sideboard against them therefore facing a Firestorm is unlikely. But using Ooze's ability would entail early fetching of mostly green mana sources.

Filter, Discard and Countermagic
Brainstorm - there's an article first published on 7/29/2010 and it has been well-received: SCG Classic - Pondering Brainstorm by AJ Sacher. (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/fundamentals/23152_SCG_Classic_Pondering_Brainstorm.html)

Ponder - arguable in a deck full of redundant spells that doesn't involve flipping Delvers, if it could be made better by adding 2 of this card.

Inquisition of Kozilek - hits the majority of threats in legacy except—Jace and Elspeth, Thrun, the Last Troll, Force of Will, Batterskull, Ad Nauseam. A 2/2 split with Thoughtseize is the norm nowadays since the latter will hit those mentioned in exchange for 2 life. A singleton Duress is reasonable because it supplements the creature removal and golden when facing combo or control.

Force of Will, Spell Snare, Counterspell - 4/3/2 split. It's not rare to take out FoWs against decks splashing red to avoid the risk of getting 2-for-1'd by REBs/Pyroblasts. Against RUG Tempo it's also not unusual for Spell Snares to go out in favor of more creature removal.

Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm - a mix of both spells replaces creature removal against decks with 0 creatures. In control matchups, Spell Pierce has added value in denying an opponent from having his own Planeswalker enter the field.

Miscellaneous
Life from the Loam - breaks parity on Liliana of the Veil and a break out card against control mirrors, on the flipside it unnecessarily exposes your library to gy hate.

Planeswalkers


June 20 2011 DCI Bannings Explained
How Did Jace, the Mind Sculptor Get Through Development?
...
Of course, we didn't fully understand Jace's power. His first ability underwent a significant late change, going from milling two cards to "fatesealing" one. That ability was playtested very little, and we didn't recognize just how easy it was to put away games with it.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor - your primary win condition. You may use his 3rd ability to return your own Snapcaster Mage or Vendilion Clique post combat to get extra value. Aggressive fatesealing after the board has stabilized should end matters quickly.

Liliana of the Veil - Perma-discard and creature removal engine, the Mistress of Death (http://steveargyle.deviantart.com/gallery/#/d41sbgi) does an excellent job at protecting Jace, the Mind Sculptor from the likes of Geist of Saint Traft, Thrun, the Last Troll and Nimble Mongooses.

Spot Removal

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSkINaUCZXef3yXWXcK7i393EskOn8MECVyQzV0c6JfzHGHgPzT, http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQWQOP5DVLpuZlxl8hpSdqIH2fWq5SKZdPsruXBkuAwzSvxihct, http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS_abProNQN-cB0rWdOv9f8OI8GI-lknNrOki6uoJyC9RkQLLOWlA, http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT-suxrEUJh10bOPBf-kwQJWgUdg-mkxowRAkRN6jNhzbvB6LVn2w.

Choose your weapons and split them into 3/2/1. Darkblast is bonkers even without Night of Souls' Betrayal online. Dismember is the alternative to kill Goyfs and KotRs.

Cards that didn't make the cut
Smother, Go for the Throat, Diabolic Edict - Spell Snare is being played left and right, so think twice before running any substitutes. At the cost of 2, these spells are too expensive to get the job done with Snapcaster Mage recursion.

Snuff Out - The cost of 4 life is not justifiable by its conditionality. A bad version of Dismember and Ghastly Demise, hefty flashback cost when paired with Snapcaster Mages.


Feature Matches
SCGAL - Rnd 7 - Tony Chu vs Chris Mahaffey (UW Blade) (http://blip.tv/scglive/scgal-lgc-round-7b-chris-mahaffey-vs-tony-chu-6110913)
SCGAL - Round 4 - Tony Chu vs Adam Cai (GW Maverick) (http://blip.tv/scglive/scgal-lgc-round-4b-adam-cai-vs-tony-chu-6109964)
SCGInvi - Finals - Nicholas Spagnolo vs Maxwell Tietze (GWr Maverick) (http://blip.tv/scglive/scginvitational-finals-maxwell-tietz-vs-nicholas-spagnolo-6056234)
SCGDC - Rnd8 - Nicholas Spagnolo vs David McDarby (UR Sneak Attack) (http://blip.tv/scglive/scgdc-lgc-rnd8-david-mcdarby-vs-nicholas-spagnolo-2-5911698)


Top 8 Placings (most recent)
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/59594 (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8173&iddeck=59594) Tony Chu - 4th Place SCG Birmingham 22/04/2012
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/59264 (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8128&iddeck=59264) Sam Roukas - 2nd Place JGNELC 14/04/2012
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/59381 (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8049&iddeck=59381) David Rocher - 11th Place LCL 31/03/2012
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/58714 (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8054&iddeck=58714) Alession Bergamaschi - 1st Place PCLL 25/03/2012
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/58233 (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7992&iddeck=58233) Nick Spagnolo - 2nd Place SCG Invitational 25/03/2012
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/58156 (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7985&iddeck=58156) Causser Gianluca - 5th Place DL 18/03/2012
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/57787 (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7932&iddeck=57787) Lerro Lorenzo - 8th Place GBLL 18/03/2012
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/58047 (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7971&iddeck=58047) Sergio Matesanz - 4th Place LML 17/03/2012
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/57802 (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7934&iddeck=57802) Oscar Marín - 7th Place LIL 17/03/2012

kiwi
11-09-2011, 08:48 AM
I have been testing this deck during the last weeks, including I did top 4 in a little tournament (24 players) losing vs ant :(, just back luck.

I think that this deck is very powerfull because in g1 we have good chances vs control and combo because we have discard and counters, and in g2 we can improve a lot our chances againts aggro sideboarding more removals + Pernicius Deed.

For example I think that bant is a good match up post sideboard.

In other hand I think that rug tempo is one of the our worst match ups, we are full of duals and fetchlands perfect vs theirs stifles and wastelands.

I would advice to play creeping tar pit, this land is very good. and take some games.

catmint
11-09-2011, 11:12 AM
I don't think the RUG tempo matchup is that bad. I played a couple of them and it was always pretty close.

Since we play a lot of lands, they should not be able to completely manascrew us. In g1 where we are removal light, it is dangerous if they have an early threat and can counter a removal spell or defense in the form of Goyf.

xfxf
11-09-2011, 05:54 PM
Very good primer catmind. Team America thread was full of BUG control discussion, this should serve well to make the distinction clearer.

I'm trying to convince myself to stick to playing BUG (because I like the deck :smile: ) but it's mathcups are not really suited towards the current metagame in my opinion. Aggro decks are really hard to deal with, straight control decks like UW Stoneforge are a little worse than slightly-unfavorable and combo isn't that dominant for BUG to be a predator.

catmint
11-10-2011, 02:27 AM
You think the UW Stoneforge matchup is unfavorable? I had good expierences playing versus UW control.

What makes the matchup problematic for you?

kiwi
11-10-2011, 08:13 AM
I think that UW stoneblade is favorable, our disruption and especially hymn to tourach makes the difference

bfeingersh
11-10-2011, 12:20 PM
So what is this deck exactly? Is it just a BUG deck that falls in between Team America and BUG Landstill? TA without Stifles, or Landstill with creatures?

xfxf
11-10-2011, 03:03 PM
When BUG gets a good start the game becomes favorable but when UW gets a smooth hand and is able to race out a SoFaF card disadvantage starts building up pretty fast.

catmint
11-10-2011, 04:48 PM
So what is this deck exactly? Is it just a BUG deck that falls in between Team America and BUG Landstill? TA without Stifles, or Landstill with creatures?

Somehow yes, however I think that distinction is too simplified. TA without stifle can still be a deck with 20 lands and a tempo plan (there are such builds as you can see in the TA thread.

I would say prepoard the deck is closer to TA and postboard versus creature decks more like landstill. However this comparison does not really fit, because the deck is totally built around snapcaster... Snapcaster does just not fit into TA or Landstill. TA does not have the manabase/curve/gameplan for it + it relies on Tombstalker which is not snapcasters friend. And in Landstill a 2/1 body has very little value.

So maybe the deck could be called snapcaster BUG. :laugh:

Parax
11-11-2011, 03:33 AM
Black
3 x Dismember
4 x Hymn to Tourach
2 x Liliana of the Veil
Blue
4 x Ancestral Vision
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Force of Will
3 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 x Spell Snare
2 x Vendilion Clique
Gold
3 x Maelstrom Pulse
4 x Pernicious Deed
Land
2 x Bayou
1 x Creeping Tar Pit
2 x Marsh Flats
3 x Mishra's Factory
3 x Misty Rainforest
2 x Tropical Island
4 x Underground Sea
3 x Verdant Catacombs
4 x Wasteland

This is a rough list that i have of a jace control list that i've been tinkering with. I've really liked the idea of Jace Control with MM befor its banning, and not sure if Ancestral Vision is doable post the banning, but it does refill your hand. Basically control the board with Deed and get there with the Manlands/Cliques or Jace can get you there also.

kiwi
11-11-2011, 08:52 AM
Black
3 x Dismember
4 x Hymn to Tourach
2 x Liliana of the Veil
Blue
4 x Ancestral Vision
4 x Brainstorm
4 x Force of Will
3 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 x Spell Snare
2 x Vendilion Clique
Gold
3 x Maelstrom Pulse
4 x Pernicious Deed
Land
2 x Bayou
1 x Creeping Tar Pit
2 x Marsh Flats
3 x Mishra's Factory
3 x Misty Rainforest
2 x Tropical Island
4 x Underground Sea
3 x Verdant Catacombs
4 x Wasteland

This is a rough list that i have of a jace control list that i've been tinkering with. I've really liked the idea of Jace Control with MM befor its banning, and not sure if Ancestral Vision is doable post the banning, but it does refill your hand. Basically control the board with Deed and get there with the Manlands/Cliques or Jace can get you there also.

I think that this isnt the correct way for this deck.

Bug control has to play Snapcasters, Tarmogoyfs and hymns in main deck.

One list for reference

Marijn Lybaert 12 ant GP Amsterdam

Creatures [8]
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf


Instants [15]
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Go for the Throat
2 Dismember
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will


Sorceries [9]
1 Ponder
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach


Planeswalkers [4]
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor


Lands [24]
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Sunken Ruins
2 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Darkblast
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Life from the Loam
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Liliana of the Veil

DragoFireheart
11-11-2011, 10:05 AM
It's about time someone put Liliana of the Veil and Jace, the Mind Sculptor in the same deck.

Whats the best number of each to run? We're going for three colors so the double color cost of each makes casting either hard against tempo decks like RUG Tempo.

catmint
11-13-2011, 04:21 AM
It's about time someone put Liliana of the Veil and Jace, the Mind Sculptor in the same deck.

Whats the best number of each to run? We're going for three colors so the double color cost of each makes casting either hard against tempo decks like RUG Tempo.

In general 3 Jace and 1 Liliana SB and/or MD is very common.

The double BB is not a consideration since we need that anyway because of Hymn.

Concerning RUG:
I played yesterday on MWS 2 matches versus competent RUG Tempo Players and won both very close 2:1.
Not to get manascrewed is very important, so the starting hand should contain some lands obviously. Also you can play around stifle by just not fetching. If you don't fetch and keep making land drops they fall behind automatically. Of course if they have a lot of early pressure that plan has to be adapted.

1 Jace goes out for sure, but I am not sure if I rather have Lilianas or Deeds (If they play nimble mongoose). Liliana is often the only edict effect, but dies very easily. Deed gives extra late game value to their stifles.

concerning Liliana in general:
I play currently 1 main and 1 SB. I have 1 slot maindeck which is flexible where I tested Liliana, Sylvan Library and Unearth. Since creatuers are a problem I opted for Liliana at the moment. I am also considering putting 1 deed in the maindeck instead of her since that's even better against creature decks. :smile:

The problem with lialiana is that is not that good against blue decks, because they have all the flash creatures. (Rug has additional burn obv.). Also since we are not Team America, which only has "crap" cards in the late game it is generally harder to +1 her. Nevertheless I feel she deserves her place, because of the possibility to take over games.

ThoSha
11-13-2011, 05:36 AM
Very good deck, and very nice primer. :)

Seeya today @corner?

Parax
11-13-2011, 05:40 AM
Just because snapcaster is the flavor of the month does not mean that we need to be playing him in every control deck out there.

I know that everyone likes him but i really am not on the boat with him at this time.

catmint
11-13-2011, 06:28 AM
Just because snapcaster is the flavor of the month does not mean that we need to be playing him in every control deck out there.

I know that everyone likes him but i really am not on the boat with him at this time.

Did you test snapcaster?
..and specifically in Snapcaster BUG?

Parax
11-13-2011, 06:54 AM
I honestly feel if you want to go the snapcaster route, you might as well drop the green and run a ub list much like that is posted above with Delver and V.Cliques as creatures also.

kues
11-13-2011, 06:54 AM
Actually, this is one of the best decks to play him. My eyes bleed when i see people playing it on Canadian threshold (even if they win SCGs)

About Liliana, i didnt like her at all. Seriously, i wish it were another card 80% of times.

catmint
11-13-2011, 10:35 AM
I agree. RUG Tempo is the best Stifle/Delver Deck, but does not really have a home for snapcaster.

catmint
11-13-2011, 10:40 AM
I honestly feel if you want to go the snapcaster route, you might as well drop the green and run a ub list much like that is posted above with Delver and V.Cliques as creatures also.

Yes, this deck wants to go the snapcaster route, but it was not invented by me. You can check SCG and TC decks and see how many people choose BUG with 4 Snapcaster Mage.

Concerning Green:
Goyf is still the moste efficient creature for it's purpose. But green is even more important there for deed.

catmint
11-13-2011, 12:10 PM
I would like to talk about the RUG Tempo matchup since it is very popular at the moment.

I just beat it again in MWS 2:0. The draw somehow went my way, but with my recent experiecnes, maybe the matchup is not slightly unfavorable as I thought, but more even.

The following specific situation got me thinking about the general strategy:
The following situation came up in g2 after I grinded him out in g1.
My opening hand:
Fetch, Fetch, Fetch, Thoughtseize, Hymn, Ghastly Demise, Snapcaster Mage

I am on the play and for 4 turns it goes "land go" except for him casting a Ponder in turn 4. I did not want to crack my fetches to get stifled and I feel my Thoughtseize and Hymn do not loose value.

After his Turn 4 his board is: Tropical, Volcanic, Wasteland, Wasteland.
Since he does not do anything I feel he has at least 1 stifle and I am afraid I loose the game getting totally mana screwed. Fortunately I draw an Underground sea:
I play thoughtseize and he reveals: Wasteland, Goyf, Pyroblast, Spell Snare, Spell Snare, Lightning Bolt

Since I had drawn another Inquision I also cast it to get rid of all his spell snares, so I can follow up with a hymn. Luckily I hit a wasteland so I keep 2 of my lands.

From there I trade easily with his threats and finish him off with Jace.

So my question is:
What do you think about the plan not to fetch unless you are under a lot of pressure?
I mean it is more likely that he really has a stifle as the game goes long, but I feel the longer it goes "land - go" it is an advantage for us. Especially post board, where we have Spell Pierce and if he misses land drops (which is very common). Also if they want to play threats, make lands drops and have mana open for Stifle AND Spell Snare/Pierce they need to brainstorm end of turn and make suboptimal plays.

Do you have experience with this line? It is somehow awkward not to kick off with Thoughtseize and Hymn if we have it. But I feel like so many time I walk into Stifle or trade with Spell Pierce/Spell Snare/Daze.


Concerning Sideboarding against RUG Tempo
I feel that I have to side out Force of Will. RUG has a lot of virtual card advantage running only 18 lands and we cannot afford to exile any of the blue cards we run. RUG does also not have something we need to force, so we need to make sure that we can protect our fundamental spells with black disruption and spell pierce.

I like to play a lot of removal to make sure I don't loose to delver or Goyf. I think nimble mongoose is the scariest threat, so I also like to play 2 deed and 1 liliana so I have 3 removals for Mongoose, which can also be game winning. In general I like to bring out blue cards versus good black and green cards to weaken their pyroblasts.

So how I side at the moment
-4 Force
-1 Jace (need to lower the curve)
-2 Dismember (Don't want to hurt myself and ghastly demise is better)
-1 Spell Snare (Seems loose to run it for Goyf, Fire-Ice, but some do run Snapcaster)
-1 Go for the throat (too expensive)

+2 Spell Pierce (I also play 1 Maindeck)
+3 Ghastly Demise (+1 maindeck)
+1 Darkblast
+1 Liliana
+1 Life from the Loam (can win the game)
+1 Deed (so 2 overall, because now I run 1 maindeck)

Thoughts? What is your strategy versus RUG Tempo?

juppal
11-13-2011, 12:18 PM
Why board in darkblast? I play the matchup all the time on MODO and your matchup plan is solid but darkblast is almost never useful.

catmint
11-13-2011, 12:37 PM
Why board in darkblast? I play the matchup all the time on MODO and your matchup plan is solid but darkblast is almost never useful.

True. It's new that I use it. It kills delver before he flips and also brings the advantage Goyf versus Goyf. Replacing it with a Dismember or a Go for the throat seems right.

kiwi
11-13-2011, 01:13 PM
Againts rug Out -4 Force of will -3 spell snare and -1 Jace

In +3 removals + 2 spell pierce + 1 life from the loam, +1 Dark Blast, db is good againts threshold (delver, lamancers or goyfs wars ) moreover if they play nimble mongoose I would sideboard pernicious deed rather than spell pierce.

catmint
11-13-2011, 04:10 PM
Againts rug Out -4 Force of will -3 spell snare and -1 Jace

In +3 removals + 2 spell pierce + 1 life from the loam, +1 Dark Blast, db is good againts threshold (delver, lamancers or goyfs wars ) moreover if they play nimble mongoose I would sideboard pernicious deed rather than spell pierce.

seems correct.
Spell Snare seems very weak. Good point about darkblast for Lavamancer.

Koplinchen
11-13-2011, 04:29 PM
I played Canadian ***** myself a lot and the key for rug player is NOT to reach lategame.
When bug player stabilize its probably over. I think it is mistake to side out Force. I used to be doing that and it is wrong. You need to make sure your (kill) spells will resolve. Card advantage is nothing if you are dead. They have no way how to draw cards so fow on their goyf is perfectly fine.
I love Ghastly Demise. Since its rugs biggest enemy. He has 11 creatures and we need to focus on killing them.
Spell Snare hits 4-5 his spells so that goes. (depends if he runs snapcasters - I dont thing thats very good version honestly; mongoose rocks)
Dismember stays. It helps early and it kills anything later. (unlike rug you can pay bb)
You dont really need spell pierce. Focus on killing creatures - thats the key.
I wouldnt keep Thoughtseize because of the lifeloss.
Keep Inquisitions and like three hymns stay.
One less jace is fine.
Life from the loam of course - deed is problematic since he keeps all stifles and I would strongly suggest considering Surgical Extractions since it can be round one win - him - tropico, ponder me - waste, extraction (happended to me in rug mirror)
Liliana is fantastic!

catmint
11-13-2011, 04:51 PM
I played Canadian ***** myself a lot and the key for rug player is NOT to reach lategame.
When bug player stabilize its probably over. I think it is mistake to side out Force. I used to be doing that and it is wrong. You need to make sure your (kill) spells will resolve. Card advantage is nothing if you are dead. They have no way how to draw cards so fow on their goyf is perfectly fine.
I love Ghastly Demise. Since its rugs biggest enemy. He has 11 creatures and we need to focus on killing them.
Spell Snare hits 4-5 his spells so that goes. (depends if he runs snapcasters - I dont thing thats very good version honestly; mongoose rocks)
Dismember stays. It helps early and it kills anything later. (unlike rug you can pay bb)
You dont really need spell pierce. Focus on killing creatures - thats the key.
I wouldnt keep Thoughtseize because of the lifeloss.
Keep Inquisitions and like three hymns stay.
One less jace is fine.
Life from the loam of course - deed is problematic since he keeps all stifles and I would strongly suggest considering Surgical Extractions since it can be round one win - him - tropico, ponder me - waste, extraction (happended to me in rug mirror)
Liliana is fantastic!

Thanks for you input but I disagree for most points.

1) FoW cant stay. We can make sure the removal works by
- redundancy &
- playing around daze

True they have no way to draw cards, but they draw a lot more spells than we do and have 4 more filter spells. So their overall card quality (and therefore virutal card advantage) will be higher.

2) If Spell Snare hits just 4-5 spells it can't stay way to narrow. Especially if its goyf which we can hanlde with every removal spell and our own goyfs.

3) Thoughtseize on the other hand is very important. If you want to play that crucal goyf/removal/snapcaster for removal you need to clear the way from Red blasts and Spell Snares.

4)Wasting/Extirpating sounds like fun. However for that to work we need a "2 card combo" in hand and need to make sure they do not have 2 tropicals in play already. I would only considering bringing in 2 extirpate if they run loam and snapcaster. If not I would rather use the slots for solid removal.

5)Liliana is ok, but after 1 edict she can so easily die. Also the +1 hurts us more then them.

I found deed to be very useful. Think 2-3 is good versus mongoose builds post-board.

By the way: Just won another game 2:1.
G1 I walked into 2 Stifle and he had 3 mongoose.
G2 we both had reasonable draws. I could stick a jace and could protect it for 4 brainstomrs into lands. After he killed Jace, I drew 3 goyf in a row though. :)
G3 he mulliganed and was empty handed with 2 mongoose on board very soon. He conceded to my deed and 3 cards in hand.

Since I won now the last 5 games (3 times 2:1 and 2 times 2:0) I am going to change the matchup in the primer to even/slightly favorable.

Koplinchen
11-13-2011, 07:21 PM
Well my english is far from perfect - spell snares are obviously bad and they are sided out.
It is easy to say - play around Daze, but thats why rug is one of the best decks - its really fast. Wasteland has always target, spell snare, stifle... That deck is designed to beat decks like bug. I would even say - perfect rug hand -> perfect bug hand.

I said 4. But its probably correct to keep two Forces in. I would like to hear someones else opinion. Tempo is more than card advantage here.

Surgical is not just good to remove lands - it gives you info about your opp. hand, you can remove goyf, spell snare. I like it.

Thoughtseize - volcanic into delver; fetch sea thoughtseize; flip waste attack to 14 play delver; whatever - daze... gg.

but...

This is what Marijn suggests (since I guess we are talking about his build):

Vs. RUG Tempo
- 4 Force of Will
- 3 Spell Snare
+ 2 Diabolic Edict
+ 1 Darkblast
+ 1 Life from the Loam
+ 1 Liliana of the Veil
+ 2 Pernicious Deed
Liliana is your girl. Play her on an empty board, and there is no way you are losing the game. Try to wait till you are sure you can resolve her (don't run into Daze).

I am completely wrong then. :smile:

catmint
11-15-2011, 02:30 AM
I also like Liliana, but unfortunately there are plenty of ways to loose with playing her on an empty board.

Especially versus RUG. They can easily have Bolt+creature or playing 2 cratures in the same turn or 2 bolts.

Does anyone have good experience playing against Maverick?
I would be interested to hear what you think the matchup is pre- postboard.
My guess is 25:75 preboard and 60:40 postboard

jandax
11-18-2011, 07:27 AM
Assigning arbitrary percentages to matchups doesn't get any where, but you're right in your assessment. Game one is pretty much in their favor. On average, one can squeek out more wins if their opponent isn't that good or the draw favors them. Game two/three get better because of Perish. That's the card you need for this match up. If you expect to see it even once at a touranment, just run two. They are at least a two for one against zoo, another very popular green beatdown deck.

They'll be bringing in things like Choke and maybe an Enlightened Tutor package that might feature some GY hate for snapcaster, maybe bring in Elspeth if she's not already maindeck (soo good maindeck). Anyways, they'll be shedding dead cards against you like Stoneforge packages (in anticipation of Deed/etc), and maybe shaving a StP or two, as there's no goyf war with Maverick. They just Exalted you to death.

If you can just go land-go for the post board games, you have a good chance at stabilizing. I'd leave in discard for their sideboard cards and strategies and side out countermagic. Your blue count is going down with all the sideboard cards coming in, so seems right, but I could be misjudging it.

The matchup is favorable for them overall because they have lots of big beats, so naturally one-for-one is exhausting, and they still have all these beats going into topdeck mode.

Tight play is key in this matchup, you gotta get them to walk into your Perish/Deed. I happen to think that Jace is a house in this match. But as a one of, he can probably go for more Lilianas. I play three maindeck, love her. Trade the first one for creatures, the second one for their hand and board. At the GP I ultimated her twice. In one game.

Like a boss.

Anyhoo. I'll say the tl'dr version of this post is to practice the matchup. Discard>counters, Perish/Deed = awesome, you're the control so make your land drops.

catmint
11-18-2011, 07:55 AM
Very solid analysis jandax.
Sounds like you have a good grasp how to have a game versus Maverick. I do not only keep discard in but also spell pierce for their sideboard cards but also for Elspeth, Equipments, GSZ,...

I do not play Perish, because if they sneak in a surviving mother or a jitte it will still be very hard to beat them after Perishing the board, since every creature they play represents another serious threat. Deed takes care of everything. Deed is also good versus goblins, merfolk, affinity, entchantress, Team Italia, Boros,... where Perish is not, so I like to maximize the value of my SB slots.

Of course deed is harder to play versus maverick, because it is slower and they can find answers.

I would really like to test more Liliana MD, but I so far do not have space. What did you cut: removal? Discard? Blue cards?
Also arent there some matchups where she is only mediocre?

jandax
11-19-2011, 04:40 AM
Very solid analysis jandax.
Sounds like you have a good grasp how to have a game versus Maverick. I do not only keep discard in but also spell pierce for their sideboard cards but also for Elspeth, Equipments, GSZ,...

I do not play Perish, because if they sneak in a surviving mother or a jitte it will still be very hard to beat them after Perishing the board, since every creature they play represents another serious threat. Deed takes care of everything. Deed is also good versus goblins, merfolk, affinity, entchantress, Team Italia, Boros,... where Perish is not, so I like to maximize the value of my SB slots.

Of course deed is harder to play versus maverick, because it is slower and they can find answers.

I would really like to test more Liliana MD, but I so far do not have space. What did you cut: removal? Discard? Blue cards?
Also arent there some matchups where she is only mediocre?

Deed is indeed better than Perish, but what Perish does for the green beatdown matchups is subtle. They're bringing in Choke and likely Grip against BUG control. Choke shuts down a vast portioin of BUG's mana base, save Bayou/Creeping Tar Pit/Sunken Ruins/Wasteland/etc. That said, I feel comfortable running 3 deed/2 perish in the side, where Perish is simply there for the beatdown decks. It throws a wrench in their game plan, and landing a Liliana to follow up, for example, usually means you're in the driver's seat. And leaving Spell Pierce in/siding it in is a great move. Save it for their SB cards, and handle the rest with yours and I expect the game to usually end post board in BUG's favor.

I cut blue cards for three MD Liliana, and in Vial matchups she's not so good. They deploy lots of threats and a three mana edict isn't a big game. I don't count her as a removal spell, only in game one where the deck is already light.

Here's my list for reference, I played something different at the GP but this list reflects a couple T32 BUG lists.

4 Force
3 Snare
4 Hymn
2 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition
2 Go for the Throat (over Dismember)
2 Ghastly Demise
3 Liliana
2 JTMS
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster
1 Clique
4 Brainstorm
2 LftL

9 fetch
4 Seas
2 Trop
1 Bayou
4 Waste
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Riptide Lab
1 Island

I generally run the Trop into the first stifle/wasteland. Black is more important early on, so preserving that Bayou will go a long way. The sideboard is in flux but there's definitely Deeds and Grips. Extra Spell Pierce, sure, I still like Surgical Extraction, but see merrit for Extirpate and Leyline. An extra Clique and Snappy are in the board too.

Razorwynd
11-20-2011, 12:12 AM
I feel like the deck is slowly shifting towards GBu good stuff. As a result a lot of blue cards are being cut (understandably so). As it currently stands, there are only 17 blue cards in the deck including FoW. Is it worth considering moving these to the SB for match ups where the are completely necessary or the blue card count is higher than 20?

jandax
11-20-2011, 06:45 AM
Made a mistake with that deck list. But you're right, it's becoming less of a cohesive control deck and more of a goodstuff late-game deck, a BUG Rock deck. I just really like the archetype but have problems being objective enough to create real synergy between cards, and keep the blue count higher.

ivanpei
11-20-2011, 08:28 AM
I think cutting cliques and unearth is a bad idea. I really feel that unearth is an extremely strong card and absolutely bonkers with snapcaster. I'm playing the standard list and it's been performing well so far. I don't think the deck needs so much discard though. 2 Seize, 1 inquisition and 4 hymm seems enough.

catmint
11-20-2011, 09:05 AM
The blue count is a challenge, because it is really just a much better Rock deck. I am more conservative, so I do not go lower than 19. Post-board FoW comes always out to transform the deck for board control.

The list I play currently:


4 Underground Sea
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Sunken Ruins
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster Mage

2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Pernicious Deed

SB
2 Spell Pierce
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Darkblast
1 Life from the Loam
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate


I played Unearth and 2 Vendilion Clique in the Grand Prix instead of the deed in a 23 land build. The problem was that I had too many "clunk hands" which did not survive the eraly game (i.e: Snapcaster Mage, Jace, Vendilion Clique, unearth,...).

Yes, Unearth and Clique are very good, but I felt I have to cut it for stuff that helps in the early game.

I also figured that playing 4 mana discard spells is not bad, especially if you want to reliably snap them back in turn 3. The clique effect is not that important then...

Unearth competes with the deed (or Sylvan Library) in the maindeck and... well I think deed serves a much better purpose in "hopeless" situations and is often an out in game1.

Because there are so many good green and black cards that I would like to play, the maindeck Life from the Loam does not have a chance for me, altough it is so good in some matchups that I consider a second one in the sideboard.

I never tested the 1 Ponder instead of the 1 Spell Pierce. In the GP there where 2 random g1 situation where this spell pierce won the game for me. However I did not count the times where I whished it was a Ponder. :laugh: So, also not set on this.

I feel 4 Wasteland are a must if I play Loam in the SB and Creeping Tar Pit has also proven to be very good.

jandax
11-20-2011, 04:37 PM
I play/am testing two MD LftL only because I rock three Liliana main. Liliana turns all those late game dead draws like extra discard/lands/LtfL....

Typing that out really kind of stings. "all those late game dead draws" like a quarter of the deck.....Seems like a bigger problem exists, ya know?

I dunno. Probably best to stick with a "stock" list like ivanpei's. Not that I'm trying to innovate out of desperation, you know, add things laying around at home to make the deck feel more accomplished.

Look at the T32 from the GP, there's a BUG list in the mid 20's that I really liked. Same sort of idea that I want to build around.

ivanpei
11-20-2011, 06:51 PM
I have to admit that this deck does feel somewhat clunky. I don't know how this deck wins without a reasonable clock. Basically -2 clique, -2 unearth means -4 threats. If these cards were to go, they should be replaced with threats. I would have to say that this is not a very good pure control deck because discard stinks in the late game. This should be more of a mid range aggro control deck ala rock.

I know that cliques and unearths are clunky, but replacing them with more snares/lftl/liliana doesn't seem too hot. You want to knock them off their groove with discard and kill them before they recover. Once you start bricking on late game discard, you've lost. Also maybe im slightly biased towards unearth because I pulled off a snap> unearth> snap> unearth> goyf chain once. Totally swung the whole game for me. I would say 30% of the time I'd have to cycle unearth because my dudes get plowed or I simply did not have a threat to being back. 30% of the time it's absolutely bonkers with snapcaster and the other 40% it's just a cheap goyf/clique which is also fine.

catmint
11-21-2011, 02:39 AM
True, with cliques the unearth is better. Not a question for me though, since I cut the cliques.

My logic was not to replace 2-4 threats with other threats, because I felt often to be overloaded with threats, but without the ability to stabalize. I added 1 threat in the form of creeping tar pit. So my winconditions are 4 snapcaster mage, 4 goyf, 1 creeping tar pit and of course the best one: 3 Jace.
So technically the winconditions are more than in many classic TA lists. Of course snapcaster mage cannot win the game alone, but since she comes with a hymn, thoughtseize, spell snare, removal spell or brainstorm, he does a lot for the game.

I tested my build since 1 week after the GP in countless matches, but I never felt that I don't have enough win-conditions. Against many decks even 2+ Goyf come out and I still have a very positive matchup. :smile:

Concerning Discard to be dead in the late game. That is true versus many decks where we have to transform into a deed / removal heave deck and board out the hymns. Versus many decks which keep counters/removal in their hand the late discard is very useful. Of course in general less useful than in the beginning, but I think the advantage of playing heavy discard early is much bigger than the disadvantage of having some bad draws.

jparula
11-21-2011, 06:46 AM
Just won a foil judge maze of ith (in a small tournament) with this deck. My list was the following:

[8 Creatures]
4 Goyf
4 Snapcaster Mage

[28 Spells]
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Brainstorm
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
2 Ponder
3 Jace, the Mind sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Dismember
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Ghastly Demise

[24 Lands]

4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
1 Riptide laboratory
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Creeping Tar Pit

Sideboard:
4 Thoughtseize
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Extirpate
3 Ghastly Demise
2 Spell Pierce

G1 - NO RUG (1-2)
G2 - Canadian Thresh (0-2)
G3 - Bye
G4 - Goblins (2-0)

Top 8:

QF - Merfolk (2-1)
SF - NO RUG (2-1) (same opp as G1)
Final - Canadian Thresh (2-0) (same opp as G2)

Still haven't figured out how good this deck is. I used to play BUG landstill, but the meta is not too good for it now (flash creatures and tempo decks are all over the place) so i am trying this now. I don't really like discard in the main deck (thoughtseize and inquistion) as you seem to fall behind pretty quickly against aggro decks so i added additional removal. Hymn is the exception cause it is such a ridiculous card and it is worth falling behind on board a bit. In addition i wanted to use flusterstorms in the sideboard but i couldn't get them fast enought for the tournament so the SB was mostly experimental and probably incorrect.

Regards

Patrunkenphat7
11-21-2011, 11:44 AM
Hmmm... My group has been playing some version of "BUG control" (Team Amaerica without Stifle and with Jace) ever since JTMS was printed, and there are some glaring issues on this thread.

A few things I see that I disagree with:

-No Dark Confidant in everyone's list. I seriously don't understand this. Bob is my primary gameplan with this deck, and it is better than Snapcaster and Goyf. It complements Snapcaster nicely, especially if you are running Unearth. It makes me wonder how people are actually winning with this deck against a varried field. This must be a side effect of people porting their Stifle/Tombstalker Team America decks to control and forgetting that Bob exists. Anyways, please play Bob.

-Liliana. Liliana is great, but she is bad against certain decks, most notably, RUG Tempo. I see in multiple posts that people run up to THREE Lilianas against RUG Tempo, and that is absolutely terrible. Liliana is used in grindy, rock-style matchups.

-Dismember. What is everyone killing with this that makes it better than the other options? Especially if you add Bob to your deck, you cannot play this. Snapcaster + Dismember is actually very bad against aggro decks. Testing against a variety of decks (that include Merfolk...) should show quickly that this usually needs to be Ghastly Demise.

-No Daze and some lists with no Wasteland. This again leads me to believe that people aren't testing every matchup. Is Daze the greatest card in the deck? Not really, but it is very important. I understand that the nature of a deck primer containing the word "control" will cause people to not even consider Daze, but this deck will get demolished by Fish and other aggro decks (and even Jace) if you don't play the tempo game a little bit.

I think generally paying more attention to aggro matchups will lead to more success with deckbuilding and in turn lead to higher finishes. There is still a strong package for grindy Jace matchups in our list, but things like 2 Loam maindeck are never going to win you a big tournament with a diverse field (unless you are extremely lucky and have no variance in your matchups).

For reference this deck has only been played by our group in three tournaments since Snapcaster was printed, and it got 1st at a SCG IQ in Durham, 12th at SCG Nashville, and 13th at SCG Nashville. Since the rise of RUG, we have changed the list to include Unearth.

Here is the current list:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Unearth
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to tourach
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Smother
1 Go for the Throat
2 Spell Snare
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Creeping Tar-pit
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacomb
4 Wasteland

SB
2 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Darkblast
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Life from the Loam
2 Unearth
1 Spell Snare

Kanti
11-21-2011, 12:04 PM
If aggro is a problem you can try out Tangle. It is a double-fog that works really well with Snapcaster. It might work even better considering you run Confidant, which can sometimes force you to look for an alpha-strike before getting hit by one. It's not the most elegant solution though.

Edit: Since you are running Daze and Wasteland I can't help but want to fit Stifle in your list. Stifle+Waste will just lock people up, but when you add Daze into the equation things get especially scary.

Patrunkenphat7
11-21-2011, 12:16 PM
If aggro is a problem you can try out Tangle. It is a double-fog that works really well with Snapcaster. It might work even better considering you run Confidant, which can sometimes force you to look for an alpha-strike before getting hit by one.

I am actually not having trouble with aggro at all, which is my point. Dismember (with a Snapcaster control deck running black) and Liliana are pretty bad against aggro, and Dark Confidant is actually amazing against aggro decks like fish, as you keep gettting more removal that you can play twice with Snapcasters. I built my list with a strong emphasis on beating aggro-style decks, because it is very good naturally against everything else. Regardless, I still have the nice Loam, 3rd Jace, Lily package in the SB for grindy matchups, plus Unearth against non-Tundra decks.

As a sidenote, I think the Inquistions are much better than Thoughtseize maindeck, but I would certainly run Thoughtseize in the SB if I wanted more of that effect. Snapping back Inquistions is very good against Merfolk and friends, but Thoughtseize gets signifacantly worse there.

I promise I'm not always know-it-all about decks :smile:; we've just been playing this deck for a very long time with good success. I have super strong opinions about like 3 or 4 decks that I have spent a couple hundred hours playtesting in group of 4 people that boasts of Legacy GP top 8, multiple SCG top 8's, IQ wins, GPT wins, ect. This is just one of the favorite decks that has been played to death in our playgroup.

jparula
11-21-2011, 12:28 PM
Hmmm... My group has been playing some version of "BUG control" (Team Amaerica without Stifle and with Jace) ever since JTMS was printed, and there are some glaring issues on this thread.

A few things I see that I disagree with:

-No Dark Confidant in everyone's list. I seriously don't understand this. Bob is my primary gameplan with this deck, and it is better than Snapcaster and Goyf. It complements Snapcaster nicely, especially if you are running Unearth. It makes me wonder how people are actually winning with this deck against a varried field. This must be a side effect of people porting their Stifle/Tombstalker Team America decks to control and forgetting that Bob exists. Anyways, please play Bob.

-Liliana. Liliana is great, but she is bad against certain decks, most notably, RUG Tempo. I see in multiple posts that people run up to THREE Lilianas against RUG Tempo, and that is absolutely terrible. Liliana is used in grindy, rock-style matchups.

-Dismember. What is everyone killing with this that makes it better than the other options? Especially if you add Bob to your deck, you cannot play this. Snapcaster + Dismember is actually very bad against aggro decks. Testing against a variety of decks (that include Merfolk...) should show quickly that this usually needs to be Ghastly Demise.

-No Daze and some lists with no Wasteland. This again leads me to believe that people aren't testing every matchup. Is Daze the greatest card in the deck? Not really, but it is very important. I understand that the nature of a deck primer containing the word "control" will cause people to not even consider Daze, but this deck will get demolished by Fish and other aggro decks (and even Jace) if you don't play the tempo game a little bit.

I think generally paying more attention to aggro matchups will lead to more success with deckbuilding and in turn lead to higher finishes. There is still a strong package for grindy Jace matchups in our list, but things like 2 Loam maindeck are never going to win you a big tournament with a diverse field (unless you are extremely lucky and have no variance in your matchups).

For reference this deck has only been played by our group in three tournaments since Snapcaster was printed, and it got 1st at a SCG IQ in Durham, 12th at SCG Nashville, and 13th at SCG Nashville. Since the rise of RUG, we have changed the list to include Unearth.

Here is the current list:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Unearth
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to tourach
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Smother
1 Go for the Throat
2 Spell Snare
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Creeping Tar-pit
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacomb
4 Wasteland

SB
2 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Darkblast
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Life from the Loam
2 Unearth
1 Spell Snare

On the draw, you cannot ghastly demise T2 Stoneforge Mystic, Jin Gitaxias, T1 wild nacatl, etc... I like Bob, though i don't think this deck needs anymore card advantage, you have jace, hymn and Snapcaster already. The deck doesn't usually lose because it runs out of cards, it loses to faster and more aggressive decks. Plus, snapcaster + riptide allows even more card advantage.

I agree with your point about liliana, she sucks against creatures with flash, people are overrating her indeed. I disagree on daze, you can't be returning lands to hand if you want to take full advantage of snapcaster Mage. T2 Hymn, T4 Snap Hymn is too powerful against combo.

"I think generally paying more attention to aggro matchups will lead to more success with deckbuilding and in turn lead to higher finishes" Agree, this deck already has a pretty good match-up against combo, you should try to balance them out (combo and aggro).

Kanti
11-21-2011, 12:29 PM
I don't play the deck and thought you wanted suggestions as to what to run vs aggro in the side.

As for the Thoughtseize comment I really don't know what you are talking about since I made no mention of discard spells ;o...

Patrunkenphat7
11-21-2011, 12:49 PM
On the draw, you cannot ghastly demise T2 Stoneforge Mystic, Jin Gitaxias, T1 wild nacatl, etc... I like Bob, though i don't think this deck needs anymore card advantage, you have jace, hymn and Snapcaster already. The deck doesn't usually lose because it runs out of cards, it loses to faster and more aggressive decks. Plus, snapcaster + riptide allows even more card advantage.

I agree with your point about liliana, she sucks against creatures with flash, people are overrating her indeed. I disagree on daze, you can't be returning lands to hand if you want to take full advantage of snapcaster Mage. T2 Hymn, T4 Snap Hymn is too powerful against combo.

"I think generally paying more attention to aggro matchups will lead to more success with deckbuilding and in turn lead to higher finishes" Agree, this deck already has a pretty good match-up against combo, you should try to balance them out (combo and aggro).

I gotta run to work, but real quick -

It's true that you cannot kill a turn 2 Stoneforge on the draw with Ghastly *on their turn*. Dismember purely to eot kill Stoneforge is not a good enough interaction to warrant a slot when you can Spell Snare, Force, Daze (if you have to), or mainphase kill it with 4 removal spells on your turn 2. Not to mention you can Inquisiton it away on your turn 1. I'm not concerned about Stoneforge at all; I am much more concerned with cards like Crucible in UW which win the game and there are much less answers to. The positives of Ghastly in addition to Snapcaster outweigh not being able to eot kill a Stoneforge on the draw, which is pretty narrow considering your other options. My plan against creature heavy decks is the straight-forward line of Ghastly turn 1 and 3 or discard early with efficient Ghastly's and other removal in the midgame. The 3rd in the board is also really important.

Turn 2, turn 4 Hymn is certainly amazing against combo, but I would never cut Daze simply to try to set up this sequence of plays against a highly favorable matchup. You are going to win this matchup regardless, and Daze is an average card against them anyways that you don't have to use if you need the turn 4 Hymn to insure victory. Bob and Hymn warrant a Daze inclusion, as does the fact that opposing Jaces are good against this deck. The Ghastly Demises and Inquistions with Snapcaster really don't care about returning a land. I can see only 2 Daze in a list being fine, but that threat of Daze is just really helpful. It's a card that I board out in certain matchups, and I like to board it out against non-Jace decks when I'm on the draw quite a bit.

And yeah Kanti, the Thoughtseize comment wasn't directed at you, just a general comment that I didn't mention in my previous post.

catmint
11-21-2011, 02:30 PM
Congratulations jparula
Good to have a former deedstill player on-board to have your experience coming in. The fact that you cut 1 mana discard for removal and 1 more spell snare is interesting.

I feel the discard trades well and makes sure to take away "blowout cards" and important creatures. The information of course also helps to implement agood gameplan. Did you never miss the discard versus combo & control?


Thank you Patrunkenphat7. I guess if you would have written the primer it would look quite different. The results from you and your group and the playtesting you guys put in prove that your build is very powerful.

I obviously came to different conclusions, but will definetly test your build.
My question is: Did you ever test a build close to mine for a longer period? ..and if so what were the problems you had?

I do agree about wastelands & liliana, so the only open question is confidant I think.
I think all the differences in the decklist come down to Bob:

1) You cut Thoughtseize and Dismember as a concequence, which is surely correct. (I also wrote in the primer that these cards cannot be played with confidant). I like your removal suite and the self inflicted damage is an issue, so I am open for new ways.

2) Another consequence is that you tap out turn 2 a lot mor often (confident & hymn) and therefore reduced spell snare to 2.

3) Because your primary gameplan is goyf, Daze makes a lot more sense to potentially protect him when you tap out turn 2 versus a counter or removal. The missing land drop hurts for the snapcaster plan though.

4) Only 2 Jace... well obviously less important with confidant (also 1 expensive spell less)

5) Unearth ... obv. a lot of value earlier.

6) 21 Lands instead of 24: You run Daze and confidant.
This gives me also a bit of a headache, but obviously works for you...

I cannot agree to the statment that confidant is good versus aggro, because you can draw into more removal. He is very often just killed and you only play 4 removal maindeck. If confidant is killed eot and they follow up with a threat, we are very far beind. What would you rather do turn 2 versus aggro: Bob or Play thoughtseize and trade very likely profitably + have Snare/Pierce/Ghastly Demise open?

I would really like to playtest Merfolk, Maverick and RUG Tempo with "my" build and your build. This decks are very popular and we have to build BUG with these decks in mind. I think "my" build has a better matchup versus them, because one of their biggest weapon is to disrupt our manabase and Thoughtseize is important versus them!

So, looking forward to get some testing done and to hear your comments.

Patrunkenphat7
11-21-2011, 04:55 PM
@catmint:

You obviously know what you are talking about, and you did a great job on the OP. We can agree that Dark Confidant is the reason for many of the other changes in the list.

As far as Dark Confidant being good against aggro, we need to raise the question of "what are the aggro decks in the current format?" Merfolk and Maverick come to mind as the most popular decks winning with creatures, followed by Bant creature-heavy variants and your occassional Goblins and Affinity deck. The fact of the matter is - Lightning Bolt aggro decks like Zoo aren't seeing play, and those players are playing Maverick. Bob is never going to get much work done against Zoo, sure, but it is the main wincon against every deck on this list (minus Affinity).

With only Goyfs to provide pressure against Fish, for example, this deck just gets blown out by Silvergills and Dismembers. I really don't see how BUG without Bob fights these two cards in Fish. Snapcaster is at best going 1 for 1 with Silvergill, which can't be the case when you don't have nearly enough removal to deal with the rest of the creatures in Fish.

Against Maverick, you really just need to deal with Mother of Runes and then Jace and Bob just take over the game. Daze eats them alive whereas Spell Snare is actually pretty awful in this matchup.

RUG - I would say that using targeted discard on the Stifles in the RUG matchup is not what you want to be doing, but it is sometimes necessary. If they aren't tapping out for their 1 and 2 drops, the game slowing down is too much in our favor and their line of play becomes pretty obvious. Bob is excellent against RUG, but it is ONLY excellent because I have 3 Unearths in my 75. Unearth is the best card in this matchup, and Unearthing Bobs is usually how I win.

I have not playtested Snapcaster/Goyf only, but I have playtested UB Snapcaster/Tombstalker. I have played against BUG with no Bob, as a guy in our playgroup put it together for a few days. I would just crush him in the 'sort of' mirror, and he felt like he could never beat Fish. UW became more of a pain for him, and he pretty much became the disruptive bad aggro deck in that matchup, whereas Bob is just absurd.

It's really hard for me to answer your bolded question, beacause it depends on so many things, number 1 being what aggro deck you are playing against. You are definitely not always slamming down turn 2 Confidant, and I commit to the 2nd line of play in your question quite often. If it is against Fish and I am on the play, then I will try to strip their hand of the Silvergill or keep Spell Snare up usually (but it also depends on if I have Daze, ect.). If I am on the draw, your 2nd line of play gets a whole lot worse for several reasons (plus you hopefully already used your discard or Spell Snare), but the Daze backup for Bob isn't as good as it is on the play. So again, everything just depends.

I would just say to playtest these matchups a lot with both decks, like you said. I would like to see the exact list that you are running; I wasn't sure exactly by the opening page (maybe I overlooked it...). By your comments, it sounds like you are running more targeted discard and another Jace, but I am running 2 maindeck so idk. I should also note that I have a lot of experience with Deedstill, but gave it up immediately when Misstep was banned. That deck could be a little similar to some of the lists people are trying to play. PV killing me in the top 8 at Providence really turned me onto that deck, but alas, it feels very unplayable without 8 free counterspells to shore uo its bad matchups.

catmint
11-22-2011, 03:41 AM
I took my list from the guy finishing 12th in the GP amsterdam:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7050&iddeck=51154

I played around a little bit and ended up changing the Liliana for a deed and the Ponder for a Spell Pierce:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22551-DECK-BUG-Control-%28Primer%29&p=602954&viewfull=1#post602954

I can imagine bob can really make a difference in the mirror or control matchups in general!

Concerning the aggro creature matchup - you can see that postboard my list overloads on removal. Also Spell Snare and Discard can trade 1:1 with problematic creatures such as silvergill adapt. So the plan is pretty easy:
1)Trade with them to survive
2)don't get blown out by KoR, choke, Back to basics, Kira...
3)make land drops for deed/snapcaster/jace to get control of the game.

For this simple, effective and most important consitent plan, bob is not needed, because snapcaster, jace and deed provide enough card advantge. Natural land drops without Brainstorming/Pondering for it are however crucial.

catmint
11-25-2011, 05:23 AM
TCDecks still lists BUG Control as Team America.

So far in November:
Marco Camilluzzi Placed 2nd in a 61 players tournament in Rome.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7163&iddeck=52010

Óscar Martín placed 5h in a 45 players tournament.
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7151&iddeck=51938
Interesting that he runs 4 Liliana and a "slow" removal suite.

There are not a lot of finishes in November...mainly because most of the good players just picked up RUG Tempo...

However BUG Control is a real contender in the current meta as it can adapt to beat creature and tempo based strategies with a core that has a favorable matchup versus combo and control as opposed to the immature little brother Team America wich is incorrectly listed as a DTB.

jandax
11-25-2011, 08:44 AM
Have a yearly Championships this sunday, going to play the following list. Lots was inspired by the talk in this thread, and finally after toying with the colors for months now I feel like this list [always +/- something] is solid, and it gives me confidence.


2 Ponder
2 Spell Snare
2 Thoughtseize
3 Daze
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
1 Go for the Throat
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
1 Unearth
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Smother
2 Ghastly Demize

2 Trop
1 Bayou
4 Seas
4 Delta
2 Misty
2 Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Sunken Ruins

SB-
2 Unearth
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pernicious Deed
1 LftL
1 Demise
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Spell Pierce
1 Darkblast

Either way the deck is a lot of fun thanks to all the goodstuff it's playing. Come good result or bad, I feel good about Sunday.

catmint
11-25-2011, 09:17 AM
Good luck to you!
I would be afraid to run only 21 lands though... but if you went through the thread you already know what I think about that and running Daze. :)

jandax
11-25-2011, 09:28 AM
Good luck to you!
I would be afraid to run only 21 lands though... but if you went through the thread you already know what I think about that and running Daze. :)

It hasn't been that bad, really. And I do want to find place for another land. I'm thinking Daze is doing more for the deck than it probably is.

catmint
11-25-2011, 04:29 PM
Having a free counterspell even if conditional is tempting. The problem I have is the antisynergy with snapcaster mage and the manaintensive control plan in general. Missing a land drop for TA is not that bad, altough i can remember a couple of times where it did hurt. For the good RUG tempo lists which basically curve out at 1 Daze has a perfect synergy. But if you rely on snapcaster, deed, jace,...to win the game daze is not good.
However, if you look at Patrunkenphat7's list... he runs 21 lands with daze, but his primary gameplan is confidant...

jandax
11-25-2011, 05:22 PM
I tried his list out. Bob is just great to play, no matter what deck. But it just didn't dowhat was necessary to win the game. Drawing an extra card does help towards that, but over all I felt a dissynergy with the deck. I dropped bob for three cliques and an extra ponder. After playing with that, it feels like the whole deck comes together better to provide card advantage and therefore is less fragile than having a 2/1 do it for you.

I also took your advice into consideration and just cut the Daze all together. One basic island, another threat and an extra removal came in place of those three cards. For a deck wanting to cast Jace, Deed, Clique, and Snappy + X getting to four lands seems manditory. Twenty two lands feels just fine, even with four of them being wastelands.

catmint
11-26-2011, 07:20 AM
How do you beat dredge (not manaless):0: with extirpate effects?

Post SB versus dredge I play 4 deed, 2 surgical and 2 extirpate.

So far I thought it is best to extract Ichorid, Bridge, Cabal, ...
but I lost more often than I won postboard against bloodghasts, nacromoebas,.. which made the matchup overall pretty bad.

Now I just won a match where he put Golgari and a Bridge in the yard in the first turn and I extirpated the Golgari, because I had a second extirpate in hand. After a Firestorm he had a very potent GY with an Ichorid, 2 Bridges and another dredger, which I of course extirpated. Like this it was easy to win with my goyf.

So is it mostly better to go for the dredgers in your experience?

jandax
11-27-2011, 03:02 AM
I play Leyline instead of extirpate effects. The arguements for and against the card are known by all, but I'm more willing to give up four slots for a card that completely blows GY decks out of the water than to go the instant speed removal route. I also played the instants, so I know where you're coming from.

By the way, the following changes were made to the above list; -3 daze, +1 Tombstalker (threat), +1 Island (crazy about basics), +1 Darkblast (from the side, for a fourth Deed in the side)

Sideboard is the following:

4 Deed
4 Leyline
2 Unearth
2 Spell Pierce
1 Liliana
1 LftL
1 Demise

Michael Keller
11-27-2011, 04:01 AM
I play Leyline instead of extirpate effects. The arguements for and against the card are known by all, but I'm more willing to give up four slots for a card that completely blows GY decks out of the water than to go the instant speed removal route.

Leyline of the Void is incredibly narrow and forces you to be overly aggressive when mulliganing your hands. If you're giving Leyline priority as an in-hand option to start the game, you're going to warp your strategy (especially when starting the game) and in essence putting yourself at risk by putting too much weight on the card itself.

The card only beats one deck (Manaless Dredge) 100% of the time, and the other decks you'd bring it in against just laugh at such an attempt. Mana-based Dredge variants run Nature's Claim, Ray of Revelation, and/or Chain of Vapor, and Reanimator obviously goes with Show and Tell in addition to other bounce effects. It's not a card you can sandbag like a Crypt or Relic, and it hardly blows those decks out of the water when any competent player who understands the intricacies of how their matchup is played will board in against you accordingly.

Leyline is just an overall bad card that players cling to for life support when they feel like they can "trump" with it in their opening hand, only to find the risks far outweigh the rewards for a card that any competent player can play around easily. Leyline is just bad unless you start with it at full commitment, which in Legacy is a severe price to pay with so many counter-measures readily available.

As a Manaless player, there is nothing more rewarding than watching my opponent mulligan into oblivion to find the card, only to miss out on three cards in hand and kill themselves in the process. I also have no problem losing to it as I know that it gives a completely false sense of security to my opponent that it's the optimal choice for their sideboard. Against any other deck, targeted, situational removal is undoubtedly the way to go and is far more crippling than a card which presents itself to be answered generously before the game even begins - with the said player running on typically four to six cards on average to start depending on how much stock they put into it.

catmint
11-27-2011, 04:22 AM
Thanks for the input to Leyline, but my question was rather specific on what is the best way to beat mana-dredge (or manaless) using extirpate effects.

I know it is situational (i.e. 2 differerent dredgers + a bridge, you will take the bridge,...)
but I would be interested to hear about how often players try to cribble by taking dredgers and how successful this approach has been.

Michael Keller
11-27-2011, 04:30 AM
Thanks for the input to Leyline, but my question was rather specific on what is the best way to beat mana-dredge (or manaless) using extirpate effects.


Against any other deck, targeted, situational removal is undoubtedly the way to go and is far more crippling than a card which presents itself to be answered generously before the game even begins - with the said player running on typically four to six cards on average to start depending on how much stock they put into it.

Manaless Dredge sees much less play than traditional Dredge variants, which is where targeted removal shines. If you can neuter their engine by hitting Narcomoeba triggers, Ichorids, Bridges, etc., you put yourself in an excellent position to slow them down enough where the Dredge player must refocus their strategy by trying to win unconventionally.

Mana Dredge suffers a bit harder to "Extirpate" effects due in large part to its lack of consistency versus its Manaless counterpart. Any targeted removal suite can due enough damage where hitting key cards at the right moment can be game-breaking. If the Manaless player slow-plays a potentially quick start, you'll see it right off the bat. This is where allowing them to slow-Dredge becomes fine and you've already won half the battle because now they're playing around your 'hate' and allowing you to do work in the process.

Extirpate is better here because Manaless runs Street Wraith, which can bring back targeted dredgers in response to Surgical Extraction, although S.E. obviously has its benefits as well.

jandax
11-27-2011, 07:52 PM
@Hollywood

I have experienced and appreciate what you're saying. Leyline hasn't been so narrow for me however. It has repeatedly won games it shouldn't have. And all you're saying is less narrow cards do the same. Definitely something to consider in the future. So are you saying that as an experienced dredge player you'd be more affraid of a slow rolled Crypt or a free Leyline? Just want to see the matchup from another angle


Also, fun game today:
Boarded out Discard for Leylines, Deeds.
Mull to 5 on the play against dredge.

Hard cast the Leyline after drawing the right amount of lands on turn four. Got beat down by ichorid, for the last time, and dropped to 7 on the next attack with two zombie tokens.

Cast one of the two Deeds in my hand and rode a Goyf with all these

True story.

catmint
11-28-2011, 02:27 AM
Wow.. the dredge player must have had a slow start...

The reason I don't run leyline is because I want to be able to play 1-2 surgical or extirpate against some combo decks or against decks utilizing the graveyard likepunishing fire. Also I don' like to mulligan aggressively versus reanimator, but still want to be able to brainstorm into easily castable hate...

jandax
11-28-2011, 05:53 AM
Well, I did kind of nut draw into stuff to trade with his board (wasteland, smother, spell pierce, etc) and then landed the Leyline to shut off his GY. It was elementary from there because at that point I had counter backup for any removal he could draw. I lost the third game because I didn't have protection for the Leyline, free after a mulligan this time, but did also have lands and a Deed. So when he EoT bounced the thing and went off reasonably, I had some time after popping Deed to basically gain life. Never got to recast it after a savage punt. So in a situation like that I can see how slow rolling a Crypt/Extirpate/Extraction could blow them out when they over extend. Makes since.

berry
11-29-2011, 07:47 AM
Point is the Leyline-plan is not even half as good vs other decks such as Reanimator, RUG Tempo, Loam, and other graveyard based shenanigans.

It's simply better to versify your answers. (And if a dredge-deck hasn't gone off by turn 4 it had one crappy start, yeah.)

Patrunkenphat7
11-29-2011, 10:30 PM
@Berry:
I very much agree. This deck is so reactive and needs to diversify answers as much as possible. Extirpate is great against lots of different combo decks and is the best card against Loam. I will never play 4 Leylines in a deck like this simply for 2 decks: Dredge and Reanimator (and some Loam decks). There are twice as many combo decks out there that I bring in Extirpate against than all Dredge and Reanimator decks combined.

catmint
11-30-2011, 03:46 PM
I totally agree to your conclusions about extirpate effects being a lot more useful versus other decks. We just have to accept that our match versus dredge is bad, but winnable with a good draw.

kiwi
12-04-2011, 04:44 PM
how do you sideboard against maverick ?
I usually sideboard out 4- fow - 3 spell snare (counters out) -1 Jaces +(3 pernicius deed +4 removal +1 life from the loam )

Against maverick my sideboard plan is playing without counters and with tons of removal, but I dont know if this is correct because if they play a choke , the game will be a headache, I play with 2 creeping tar pit and 2 bayou but also choke is very broken when they play one against me.

May be would be better to keep in fows against mavericks post sideboard ?

jandax
12-04-2011, 06:04 PM
how do you sideboard against maverick ?
I usually sideboard out 4- fow - 3 spell snare (counters out) -1 Jaces +(3 pernicius deed +4 removal +1 life from the loam )

Against maverick my sideboard plan is playing without counters and with tons of removal, but I dont know if this is correct because if they play a choke , the game will be a headache, I play with 2 creeping tar pit and 2 bayou but also choke is very broken when they play one against me.

May be would be better to keep in fows against mavericks post sideboard ?

It's best to let them have it. You're boarding out blue cards for FoW. If you want to play to an out, have Nature's Claim or Krosan Grip in your board. Your deck will be much more consistent and painful to their over all game than playing around a Choke will. Plus, from talking to various people who've played with and against Maverick, having Deed plus Perish is rarely stopable. I'd say just keep them off Mom or a Hierarch Turn one, use your discard to hit their spells and mop up with sweepers. Tight play is going to win this match more than any single card will.

catmint
12-05-2011, 02:39 AM
Playing a ton of removal, deed is surely correct. However, I board out 2 Tarmogoyf, since I want to deed and he does not win anyway. Jace is the best win-condition therefore I would not cut one. I am boarding out Hymn, because often you cannot play it, since you have to play a removal instead and card advantage can be achieved with deed, snapcaster and jace.

Versus Choke: I play 4 pointed discard maindeck and board in Spell Pierce so I have 3 overall. Spell Pierce is very strong versus: Equipments, Elspeht, Choke, Sylvan Library and Green Sun's Zenith! Still choke will hit you sometimes, but having in force won't help a lot versus that and is a worse choice overall.

My current boarding plan
-4 FoW
-2 Hymn
-2 Tarmogoyf
-2 Spell Snare

+ 3 Pernicous Deed (1 in Maindeck)
+ 3 Ghastly Demise
+ 1 Darkblast
+ 2 Spell Pierce
+ 1 Liliana of the Veil

Loam is interesting... I think wastelanding them out is difficult, but could happen if you also kill the mana creatures...If they have KoR and waste 2+ times, I think the loam won't save us...

jandax
12-05-2011, 07:08 AM
Interesting....

I'd leave Snare in because all of their two drops are relevant. One mana counters are better than Force, so some combo of Pierce and Snare feels good as far as permission is concerned. It's not like the deck is constantly tapping out.

I agree with taking the forces out, Goyf's not so much because I always felt the deck lacked enough business. With only two Jaces, I'm not comfortable banking on him to win the game, but will adapt to play for that situation.

I've also dropped the single Liliana from my side, period. Awesome card, but I don't think she has a home in this deck. Miser cards are sweet but I'd rather have playsets of something for consistency's sake. Here's my current list, the only thing I want to change but am forcing myself not to is the addition of basics, and finding some Flusterstorms. That card is pretty nuts for storm matchups

2 Tombstalker
1 Ponder
2 Spell Snare
2 Thoughtseize
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
1 Go for the Throat
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
1 Unearth
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Smother
2 Ghastly Demize
1 Darkblast

1 Trop
2 Bayou
4 Seas
1 Island
4 Delta
2 Misty
2 Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Sunken Ruins

SB-
2 Unearth
2 Extraction
2 Crypt
4 Pernicious Deed
1 LftL
4 Spell Pierce

catmint
12-05-2011, 08:50 AM
It is interesting that you find it troublesome not having enough business spells. It also reflects in your list which has a very high creature threat density, but only 2 Jace.

The way I play the deck, the issue of not having enough business spells does not come up, since the main focus is to have answers and not threats. Answers in the form of discard, counterspells and removal to have the opponent either:
- empty handed (and no significant board position) so a Goyf can take over or
- empty board, so jace can take over the game.
So, I usually do not play out my winconditions (jace/goyf), before I am not sure that they will resolve/survive.

With snapcaster mage increasing the number of answers (reactive or proactive) it is much easier to implement that gameplan. Too many winconditions are problematic for this plan, since it forces you to play out your threats and somehow ride them to victory. If that would be my strategy, I would prefer to play a tempo deck.

What I would really encourage you to try is to run additional 2 Inquisition of Kozilek. Pointed discard is such a powerful Turn 1 play and very often my turn 3 play with snapcaster mage.

ivanpei
12-05-2011, 09:00 AM
So is bob good in this deck? A build with bobs instead of Cliques just T8ed. I like this build because the previous one had quite alot of 3 drops (Cliques, Snapcasters) and Bob is such a bomb. Of course this limits his Dismembers and Thoughtseizes, but I think it's pretty worth it. Sylvan/Top seems like it should help assist in staying alive.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=42528

I don't agree with Sylvan though, now they are too many 2 drops. 3 Jace + 1 Top should be plenty and the life loss from Sylvan + Bob + other spells add up. Deck needs a 2nd unearth now that they are more targets. Looks interesting.

catmint
12-05-2011, 09:52 AM
We already had a very good and detailed discussion about Bob on page 3. Patrunkenphat7 and his group developed a Bob version that performs well on the SCG. I only played the build a little bit and it is strong... For now I stick to a build close to the one which finished Top16 in Amsterdam, because I feel less vulnerable with it (especially versus RUG Tempo) http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7050&iddeck=51154

What's very interesting is how many other card choices and the general gamplan is affected by adding Bob (a lot of this discussion on Page 3).

TheRedBaron
12-05-2011, 10:59 AM
I piloted this, this past weekend to a 4-0... I'm not sure where this goes, guess it could be TA, BUG, or dreadstalker, minus stalker...

Bottom Line
Manabase was a little awkward, and 4 Dreadnoughts were too much at times. post board, DeeD + noughts were awkward too.

Breakdown
2-0 vs Infect Stompy
2-1 vs. Dreadstalker
2-0 vs RUG Tempo
2-1 vs. Dredge

Top 4
1-2 vs. same Dredge deck (didn't draw any Deeds, game 3)

List
4 Phyrexian dreadnought
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Ghastly Demise
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind

4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn To Tourach
2 Ponder

Land:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
3 Wasteland

board
4 Pernicious DeeD
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Krosan Grip
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Tormod'S Crypt

ivanpei
12-05-2011, 11:21 AM
Since Zoo sees very little play, bob is only really bad against Merfolk. I think bob is perfectly fine against GW Maverick. GW's plan is to drop as many disruptive creatures and slowly outgrind you in the midgame. It's not very aggressive on your life total at all. In that case I would say running bob in this meta is perfectly fine IMO.

catmint
12-05-2011, 11:24 AM
I piloted this, this past weekend to a 4-0... I'm not sure where this goes, guess it could be TA, BUG, or dreadstalker, minus stalker...

Bottom Line
Manabase was a little awkward, and 4 Dreadnoughts were too much at times. post board, DeeD + noughts were awkward too.

Breakdown
2-0 vs Infect Stompy
2-1 vs. Dreadstalker
2-0 vs RUG Tempo
2-1 vs. Dredge

Top 4
1-2 vs. same Dredge deck (didn't draw any Deeds, game 3)

List
4 Phyrexian dreadnought
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Ghastly Demise
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind

4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn To Tourach
2 Ponder

Land:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
3 Wasteland

board
4 Pernicious DeeD
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Krosan Grip
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Tormod'S Crypt

Congratulations. Looks like an interesting approach to me.

Unfortunately it is a totally different direction than what this thread is about. Your deck is a tempo stifle nought build in BUG and this thread is about a full blown control build abusing snapcaster mage to the maximum. I suggest you post your list in Team America or some UB(x) Stiflenought thread...

catmint
12-05-2011, 11:39 AM
Since Zoo sees very little play, bob is only really bad against Merfolk. I think bob is perfectly fine against GW Maverick. GW's plan is to drop as many disruptive creatures and slowly outgrind you in the midgame. It's not very aggressive on your life total at all. In that case I would say running bob in this meta is perfectly fine IMO.

I agree bob would be fine against Maverick... but not insane... Since I want to deed, I rather have no creature on my side of the board. I also love to see Mavericks removal spells dead in their hand...

Also, Merfolk is a good reason for me not to run Bob, since it is a difficult matchup for BUG and you can always expect to play against Merfolk in any tournament.

But my major consideration was RUG Tempo. The confidant build from Patrunkenphat7 had a more fragile manabase and with RUG's daze, spell snare, bolt and dismember I can't see getting a lot of value out of Bob versus them (even with 3 unearth postboard). Fetching early and tapping out for something they can handle plays exactly into their gameplan. Also a card that I really want versus RUG (& any other matchup) is thoughtseize, which would not be available with confidant.

I don't know about the confidant builds matchup versus Merfolk/RUG Tempo in detail, but I think "my" build is stronger versus those decks.

TheRedBaron
12-05-2011, 11:54 AM
Congratulations. Looks like an interesting approach to me.

Unfortunately it is a totally different direction than what this thread is about. Your deck is a tempo stifle nought build in BUG and this thread is about a full blown control build abusing snapcaster mage to the maximum. I suggest you post your list in Team America or some UB(x) Stiflenought thread...

Ahh, ok. Thanks. It felt really controlly to me, what about a variant with Drednought + snapcaster :D?

This is what I was thinking:
3 Noughts
4 Snapcaster
4 Goyfs

2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell snare
4 Force
4 Brainstorm
2 Go for the Throat
2 Dismember
4 Stifle

4 thoughtseize
3 Ponder

1 Deed
1 Jace

ivanpei
12-05-2011, 12:27 PM
I agree bob would be fine against Maverick... but not insane... Since I want to deed, I rather have no creature on my side of the board. I also love to see Mavericks removal spells dead in their hand...

Also, Merfolk is a good reason for me not to run Bob, since it is a difficult matchup for BUG and you can always expect to play against Merfolk in any tournament.

But my major consideration was RUG Tempo. The confidant build from Patrunkenphat7 had a more fragile manabase and with RUG's daze, spell snare, bolt and dismember I can't see getting a lot of value out of Bob versus them (even with 3 unearth postboard). Fetching early and tapping out for something they can handle plays exactly into their gameplan. Also a card that I really want versus RUG (& any other matchup) is thoughtseize, which would not be available with confidant.

I don't know about the confidant builds matchup versus Merfolk/RUG Tempo in detail, but I think "my" build is stronger versus those decks.

Bob is not too hot against Delver RUG as well as Snare, Bolt or Dismember kills him. In general I dislike RUG delver, the deck is pretty fragile, but it preys on weak manabases like BUG control. It's pretty important to play more coloured sources. Still I'm not sold on either build. I like bobs because you can play aggressive and try to steal the game with quick beats and bob's crushing card advantage. Of course Tempo decks like merfolk and RUG will make quick work of the deck, but everything has a downside.

@ Stifle nought in general: It's cute but usually better in a deck that plays 1 off Nought with Trinket mages to search for it. That way when you have dead Stifles late game, you can search a nought up and turn your stifles into a humoungous threat (usually this is run in countertop builds). In a deck like this you will be using your stifles quite often, leaving nought dead. I recommend + 1 stifle effect. I have a nought + 2 rule. So if you play 3 Noughts, you should play 4 Stifles and 1 Trickbind. If you play 4 noughts, 4 Stifles and 2 trickbinds. Cheers.

TheRedBaron
12-05-2011, 01:51 PM
@ Stifle nought in general: It's cute but usually better in a deck that plays 1 off Nought with Trinket mages to search for it. That way when you have dead Stifles late game, you can search a nought up and turn your stifles into a humoungous threat (usually this is run in countertop builds). In a deck like this you will be using your stifles quite often, leaving nought dead. I recommend + 1 stifle effect. I have a nought + 2 rule. So if you play 3 Noughts, you should play 4 Stifles and 1 Trickbind. If you play 4 noughts, 4 Stifles and 2 trickbinds. Cheers.

I agree here. 4 noughts, 5 stifle effects was really awkward at times. I felt 2-3 noughts would be correct number. Especially with ponders/brainstorms + snapcaster, I would see no issues with 4 stifle 2 nought main. Nought may not even be the best in that slot, just wanted to share what I ran :), it sucess to a degree.

Here is my dilemma, I love Hymn to tourach, I just feel like it would be tough running snapcaster + hymn as you would need BBU1 mana to cast properly flashback, and throw in real game factors like your opponents wastelands (as well as your own) and you have trouble.

catmint
12-05-2011, 04:31 PM
I don't think the 24 land manabase is unstable. You make your land drops (miss less than your opponents) and play through wastelands...Wasteland only hurts if the opponents deck has a lot of low curve business going and is accellerating or applying pressure.

Also as written in the primer your own Wastelands are often not used aggressively, but that really depends on the situation. Still playing 4 Wastelands is correct I think... especially if running Loam in the SB.

Concerning snapping back a hymn. Really not that hard to get to and a common play for me. 1BBU sounds tough, but if you look at the manabase it is usually just 4 lands. Getting to 4 lands is also important for Jace, so not an extra stretch for that play...

jandax
12-05-2011, 04:44 PM
I agree here. 4 noughts, 5 stifle effects was really awkward at times. I felt 2-3 noughts would be correct number. Especially with ponders/brainstorms + snapcaster, I would see no issues with 4 stifle 2 nought main. Nought may not even be the best in that slot, just wanted to share what I ran :), it sucess to a degree.

Here is my dilemma, I love Hymn to tourach, I just feel like it would be tough running snapcaster + hymn as you would need BBU1 mana to cast properly flashback, and throw in real game factors like your opponents wastelands (as well as your own) and you have trouble.

Then it's probably wrong to keep them in after sideboarding with this style deck. But as mentioned this is less a tempo and more a control oriented deck. About Snapping back a Hymn, if one can then their mana base isn't under any duress. get it

All the hypothetical aside, to me it seems you've pointed out a weakness, but with different style of play it's not the liability it would be.

Edit:

catmint- I play my build either tempo or control in the early game, then after a pivotal turn that I play to (generaly the right play given experience) several spells in the deck begin to end the game. I've added two Tombstalkers because one as a mise was nuts. During that Open tournament I spoke of a little while ago, every game I drew it (three in seven rounds) it won. Two seems to make sure I see one, as a black 5/5 flier for cheap is too much of a tempo swing for many a deck.

I must say I've played with Stifle/Naught, Delver, and Bob in this build over the past few months and think what I have now is the best list for me. It's a pile I know how to play, and it's always interesting to hear how others work their lines out

bowvamp
12-05-2011, 04:46 PM
Except that most decks that run wasteland DO apply early pressure. This deck needs its mana (you've said so before), yet comparing early wasteland vs. an early daze, it's easy to see that the daze is better for guaranteeing you that mana at the end game. Wasteland would only be justified if there were lands that need to be hit no matter what. For this deck, those lands aren't that bothersome and the Hymn to Tourachs need double black which wasteland can't provide.

catmint
12-05-2011, 06:17 PM
You don't think the deck should run wasteland bowvamp?

I don't think you can compare a daze with a wasteland. When dazing the the drawback causes you to have 1 land less than your opponent. That is very bad for BUG control but not bad for a tempo deck curving out at 2 or a deck with noble hierarch.

Concerning the "must kill" lands. What comes to my mind is Manlands, Karaks, Maze of Ith, Sol lands, Riptide Lab,... But this utility lands are not the reason why wasteland should be played (altough even that might be reason enough to run 3+)

The real reason to play wasteland is the ability to manascrew your opponent when the gamestate suggests it is the best play... There is no need to do so if you need the 4th mana for Jace... with 20 color lands including sunken ruins helping out you hardly have trouble casting hymn. So just the color requirement is not an argument not to run wasteland.

sumbahdy
12-08-2011, 11:33 PM
I've been following this thread for sometime now and mostly agree with what Catmint's arguments. Before asking anything, would like to post my list for reference:
Spells: 37
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Spell Snare
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor
3 Hymn To Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozielek
1 Unearth
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Dismember
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Diabolic Edict

Lands: 23
1 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

Some issues:
No Riptide Lab - Do we really need it? It is cute with the combat tricks and of course reusable Snaps but it seems clunky. It does not produce colored mana and the deck itself is already having a hard time maintaining lands in a field of wastelands and stifles. I think riptide is best suited in a two color build with Snaps.

Unearth - I see this a win more card. It isn't everyday that you get to do Unearth --> Snap --> FB Unearth --> Goyf or Clique. Am testing this in the slot of another land. If I would be cutting this, probably another land will take its place or maybe MD GY hate instead.

Maestrom Pulse - I always feel safer with a catch all card in a deck. Its primarily used to hit Walkers and other stuff that could slip past counters and removal.

Six Discard Effects and Four Removal - I've seen plenty of lists posted using 7 discard spells. Isn't that too much considering you would be flashing back at least one of them on the 3rd (Seize/Inqui) or 4th turn (Hymns)? If they do top deck a bomb then your screwed. Also with 7 discard effects, do you keep on firing at your opponents hands leaving them in top deck mode or wait for at least 2 cards and fire Seize or Hymn(obviously)? I ran 6 with only 3 Hymns to lessen the dependency on black mana.

In my build, if I were to run Bob, what should I be cutting?

Looking forward to your responses. Thanks!

ivanpei
12-09-2011, 02:37 AM
I can't really comment on the other questions but I feel strongly on these two points:

In snapcaster decks, I only play 1 lab ever. It is absolutely slow ass. If you are activating it in the first 5 turns, there's something wrong. It's one of those ultra late game cards that give you a slight edge. I'll only ever run 1 or none at all.

Unearth is not win more. The card is sexy and should be run as a 1-2 off. It can really turn games around. If you are only playing 8 creatures, I don't recommend it but if you play 10 or more, this card is really good. The crazy snapcaster chain with unearth can create an army out of nowhere. The card cycles too if you really have no targets.

jandax
12-09-2011, 07:21 AM
Plus, no one sees Unearth coming. I want to avoid hypothetical talking points, so obviously playing against someone who knows the deck is an exception etc. Unearth lets you trade your Goyf/Clique/designated beatstick for their counter/removal in the early game. Playing into their strategy and then quickly turning the tables by one-uping them on creatures thanks to Unearth is a line your opponent is not ready for. You want to see that card once you start taking control of the game state, at the very least it fits my play style and I embrace the effects it brings to the deck.

Cute interaction:

Cycle Unearth, dredge back Darkblast, win Goyf stand off after combat. But you gotta kind of slow roll it. Snap attacking might lead a good player on.

jedi_gof
12-10-2011, 05:07 AM
Why do people keep on insisting playing unearth over reanimate?

Reanimate is, unless you are playing Bob himself, infinately better.

With all your dicards+removal you have acces to all opposing creature, while all your own critters will cost you 2 lives only to bring back.
In my eyes that's a small price to pay for the improved versatility of reanimates over unearth - not to mention the couple of times i have screwed over a reanimator player by countering his reanimation spell and reanimating his target myself.

-jedi_gof

catmint
12-10-2011, 09:21 AM
I like the reanimate idea...
however I think unearth is mostly used in confidant builds, because it is a more "creature pro-active" strategy. So the lifeloss does matter...

Concerning too many discard effects sumbahdy.
I play (of course) 4 hymn and the full 2 thoughtseize, 2 inquistion. Yes it can happen that you have some useless discard later on, but I want to start with T1 thoughtseize, T2 hymn, as much as possible. The situation that I dont want more discard because I would rather flash it back is not very common, since there are also other targets to flash back. Since we are a control deck the late game hand where discard is not needed should be able to be controlled with brainstorm (snapstorm) & Jace. If we are in topdeck mode, something went wrong anyway....

I think the confidant build might be slightly different here, but I see the non-confidant build as discard based. Reasons are:
1) Force is often sided out, leaving spell snare and spell pierce as the only counterspells which are very situational. Pointed discard plays a major role in controlling the gameflow by handelding critical spells, which are hard to counter.
2) In g1 the deck plays not a lot of removal, so beeing able to trade versus creatures is important.

sumbahdy
12-10-2011, 09:40 AM
I like the reanimate idea...
however I think unearth is mostly used in confidant builds, because it is a more "creature pro-active" strategy. So the lifeloss does matter...

Concerning too many discard effects sumbahdy.
I play (of course) 4 hymn and the full 2 thoughtseize, 2 inquistion. Yes it can happen that you have some useless discard later on, but I want to start with T1 thoughtseize, T2 hymn, as much as possible. The situation that I dont want more discard because I would rather flash it back is not very common, since there are also other targets to flash back. Since we are a control deck the late game hand where discard is not needed should be able to be controlled with brainstorm (snapstorm) & Jace. If we are in topdeck mode, something went wrong anyway....

I think the confidant build might be slightly different here, but I see the non-confidant build as discard based. Reasons are:
1) Force is often sided out, leaving spell snare and spell pierce as the only counterspells which are very situational. Pointed discard plays a major role in controlling the gameflow by handelding critical spells, which are hard to counter.
2) In g1 the deck plays not a lot of removal, so beeing able to trade versus creatures is important.

Thanks for the response. When do you sideout Fow's? With spell snare being rampant do you think hymn is still an option?

I also like the reanimate idea. Downside is that it can't cycle but over all is a nice option given the discards. Will comment on the rug and uw match-ups more after testing. Lost to uw and rug preboarding and would like to see what would the matchlook like with variationsin discard effects.

catmint
12-10-2011, 09:56 AM
Thanks for the response. When do you sideout Fow's? With spell snare being rampant do you think hymn is still an option?

I also like the reanimate idea. Downside is that it can't cycle but over all is a nice option given the discards. Will comment on the rug and uw match-ups more after testing. Lost to uw and rug preboarding and would like to see what would the matchlook like with variationsin discard effects.

I side out FoW
- versus almost all creature based deck (not elves) where DeeD and a ton of removal plays a major role (also blue count issue): Merfolk, Goblins, Maverick
- versus every deck running Hymn to Tourach for obvious reasons (also the mirror)
- versus RUG Tempo, because they have a lot of virtual card advantage running only 18 lands and I want to beat them with removal and late game trump!

I side it out pretty often, so I already considered running the same 75, but changing FoW versus more removal and deed in the maindeck and putting them to the sideboard.

A lot of spell snare around is not an argument not to run Hymn, rather an argument for Hymn. Yes, they can counter it in some situations, but Hymn is in general a very very good card versus decks running spell snare. By the way... another good point why 1 mana discard is very important -> makes Hymn much stronger!

The matchup versus UW and RUG is very skill and draw dependent so it is definitely close, but since I figured it out how to play against them I feel to have a slight edge. Mostly because discard is so strong versus them.!

Arcadia
12-11-2011, 03:29 PM
I have tested a bit the old TA and this one and I see quite a lot of standard stuff, so maybe it's better to focus on how to play than in lists.

The only think I think people should do is play 2-3 liliana. I only had 1 in the past few events, but it destroyed Maverick, and I think it helps a lot vs bant. And it kills mother of runes, thrun and progenitus.

Saying this, because in the two tournaments I played (not too competitive, 20-30 persons) I only lost to loam (0-1, understandable) and bant. I played 3 times against bant, but I didn't had a good feeling even if I won, but I think that this would change with liliana.

Usually I can kill/discard the small guys at the beginning, but then comes stoneforge or KoTR, so you cannot always kill noble. Liliana avoids this, as you can kill/discard the firsts guys, and then play liliana to keep doing the same.

I played 3 discards, but I felt I wanted the fourth. On the play it is better obviously, on the draw, if you don't have what to do on first or second turn, it's also nice.

About side, do you side in pernicious deed against bant? I always feel it's slow, specially with qasali on the other side. And you cannot leave a KoTR in play as it will bring wastelands, but it also gives you games. Perish and pernicious seems overkill also.

Plague Sliver
12-11-2011, 05:16 PM
My new favorite archetype. I'm glad you guys are calling it BUG Control instead of TA, 2 completely different decks.

I started with catmint's list and made a few changes to account for my meta. There are Goblins and Maverick decks every week, hence some of my maindeck decisions.

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Snapcaster Mage

4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
2 Dismember
2 Go for the Throat
1 Ghastly Demise

4 Tarmogoyf

2 Pernicious Deed

2 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:

1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Life from the Loam
2 Krosan Grip
2 Spell Pierce
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Ghastly Demise
3 Extirpate

Because I wanted to run 24 lands (23 I was not-quite-getting-there in a few test games), I had to make a difficult cut of 2 Inquisition from the main. I started with catmint's list of 2 Thoughtseize, 2 Inquisition, and I think that's the right decision in general, but for my meta I much prefer to load up on extra removal. I also found these effects to be surgical in nature - it's not always the right play to play T1 if you can leave up mana for counters / not expose yourself to T1 Wasteland.

Granted, my test sample size is incredibly small and I was a complete lucksack vs. sdematt in testing, but the miser's copy of Loam really helped in the long game. Better than Crucible in this deck.

Thrun was a recent addition vs. mirror type of matchups. Edicts are for the opponent's Thruns :)

I've been reading about how great Lilliana is, I haven't tested her yet but I might make room for 1 in the board. If I were to run her main I'd probably also main Loam.

catmint
12-11-2011, 10:19 PM
Good Point Arcadia...discussing how to play the deck correctly versus certain strategies is key..

I did not play that much versus Bant hence my SB & gameplan is not that set. I think my gamplean would be similar to playing versus Maverick, with the difference that we do not have to be afraid of Choke, but of Jace. Since they also have counterbackup I would not like to go full blown board control with just 3 spell pierce and 2 thoughtseize to handle jace, therefore some amout of FoW should stay in. Also Hymn is more powerful versus Bant than versus Maverick, since they do not have that much redundancy/high threat density (no GSZ) and run Force of Will.

My current postboard list versus bant looks like this:

-3 Spell Snare
-2 Tarmogoyf
-2 Force of Will

+2 Spell Pierce (3 Total with 1 MD)
+1 Pernicious Deed (2 Total with 1 MD)
+1 Liliana of the Veil
+3 Ghastly Demise (4 Total with 1 MD)

I think I want 2-3 deed to be able to kill equipments or have a 2 for 1. The reason I don't want it as often as versus Maverick or Goblins is not because of pridemage (since they usually do not run GSZ, but rahter a SFM package), but because of Jace. Versus other creature based decks it is not that tricky....

Concerning Liliana. Love that card... problem is she is not that good with ton's of burn, snapcaster,... around. Also versus Maverick she is not that good, since they can often fetch for Dryad Arbor EOT or flash in Aven Mindcensor. Versus Bant I reckon she is a lot more useful...

_________

Good to have you Plague Sliver!

I like your metagame adaptions. Did you consider cutting force instead of discard? I mean versus Goblins Force is useful because of ringleader/matron, but I still side it out and rely on deed/discard. Versus Maverick Force just sucks and I love the discard in general because of the snapcaster synergy.

Plague Sliver
12-12-2011, 07:51 PM
Good to have you Plague Sliver!

I like your metagame adaptions. Did you consider cutting force instead of discard? I mean versus Goblins Force is useful because of ringleader/matron, but I still side it out and rely on deed/discard. Versus Maverick Force just sucks and I love the discard in general because of the snapcaster synergy.

That's a good point, but I think the deck needs to have enough game in G1 against other blue decks and that's why 4x FoW main is the right call. I can always cut 1x or 2x after sideboarding. I'm definitely not one of those "play 4x FoW in every deck" players, but I think in this deck it's warranted.

As for going down to 2x Thoughtseize, that's going to be a gametime decision more than anything else. There's a 50% chance I'll just cut a Go for the Throat from the maindeck again to make room for 3x 1cc discard effects. They are VERY good, and help win the counter-war, so I don't disagree with your philosophy.

Right now I'd like to make room for a Sylvan Library and Loam in the maindeck too, but I think that's too many slots. What's already in there is a solid core and I wouldn't want to tinker with it too much without more testing/tournament experience.

One of the best compliments I got while playing the deck was from sdematt, when he said the deck felt like Deedstill during the Misstep era. Similiar to Deedstill, it takes its time to win, but the feeling of inevitability is great. We also talked about how powerful SCM was, to the point where blue decks could now out-attrition Rock decks.

sdematt
12-12-2011, 08:38 PM
Snapcaster was the tits for you in our testing. I hate that guy. Flashing back stuff late-game was horrendous for me.

-Matt

catmint
12-12-2011, 09:33 PM
I agree, not running Sylvan Library just hurts somehow. Maybe cutting 1 Goyf, since the situations where I want Goyf in multiples are pretty rare and I often side out 2 if the deck becomes a better "deedstill".

2sided3angle
12-13-2011, 12:11 PM
@Catmint:
Very good primer! Been looking at Marijn Lybaert's list from GP Amsterdam and plan on running something really similar to this for an event in January.

Agree with running a 1-of Deed MD but not too sure what to cut for it.

Been trying to get a lot of testing with it under my belt between now and then.

catmint
12-14-2011, 09:58 PM
Thanks 2sided!

The only MD changes I did to Marijn's list was to

- replace the POnder with a Spell Pierce (I probably have a selective memory to it beeing useful in a lot of g1 situations - I do not know if this is optimal)

- replace Liliana with deed, because they have a similar role with deed beeing more powerful IMO. Also Lightning Bolt, drayad arbor, aven mindcensor & snapcaster mage are big enemys of Liliana and many decks which are popular and need to be considered run those cards.

Vuuyi
12-15-2011, 08:28 AM
Hi all,

This is my first post on this forum even though I've been checking it for quite a while now. Last Saturday(10/12/11) I've played at a small(about 20 people) tournament. I ended somewhere around the 10th place because I made a big mistake. Else I would have gone Top-4.

This is the list:

3#Tropical Island
3#Underground Sea
2#Bayou
2#Island
1#Forest
1#Swamp
1#Riptide Laboratory
4#Polluted Delta
2#Verdant Catacombs
1#Flooded Strand
4#Brainstorm
3#Spell Snare
1#Spell Pierce
4#Force of Will
3#Counterbalance
3#Sensei’s Divining Top
3#Standstill
3#Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2#Smother
1#Dismember
1#Diabolic Edict
3#Snapcaster Mage
2#Vedalken Shackles
1#Liliana of the Veil
3#Maelstrom Pulse
3#Mishra’s Factory

// sideboard
3#Pernicious Deed
2#Extirpate
2#Surgical Extraction
3#Spell Pierce
3#Duress
2#Krosan Grip

Out of the 6 rounds we've played I won three(TES, Raffinity and Hivemind/SnT + Emrakul).

I've lost 3 games to 2 Thresh decks(Nimble Mongoose is a pain in the ass) and 1 to Sneaky Show.

In general the deck ran pretty smooth. I had enough removal spells to eventually win by using Jace or I had an early Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top to lock my opponent.

There were some cards that kind of disappointed me; Maelstrom Pulse and Vedalken Shackles. I boarded the last one out almost every game.

Maybe you guys have some ideas to replace at least the 2 Vedalken Shackles?

Any suggestions or remarks in general are nice too.

Thanks,

Vuuyi

catmint
12-15-2011, 11:08 PM
Hi Vuuyi,

well as you can read in the primer and in all the other decklists posted the main difference to your list is that we play BUG to play discard and you chose to play counter top. Standstill is also never used in BUG control, since there are better sources for card advantage and there is no space for manlands.

I suggest you try out one of the lists from the thread, because I think it is a more consistant gameplan overall or you try to find (or open) some sort of countertop thread.

jandax
12-17-2011, 02:15 AM
Hi Vuuyi,

well as you can read in the primer and in all the other decklists posted the main difference to your list is that we play BUG to play discard and you chose to play counter top. Standstill is also never used in BUG control, since there are better sources for card advantage and there is no space for manlands.

I suggest you try out one of the lists from the thread, because I think it is a more consistant gameplan overall or you try to find (or open) some sort of countertop thread.

None of the lists play like Deed/Still, though. If you're going to pick up a list from the thread, Vuuyi, consider that by large this deck wants to curve out with discard/counters and stick a threat that it rides all the way. That is the premise of the deck, so playing to that out should always be a part of the game plan.

BUG control is a helluva deck. Not something one just picks up and crushes the competition. It's going to take months of tournaments and testing to get a real feel for it. Thanks to the printing of Snapcaster, there are just soooo many lines of play from turn one on. Experience is your only guide.

jparula
12-18-2011, 07:09 PM
Just won a playset of lion's eye diamond at the end of a "league" in my local store, playing this deck. I Expected a lot of aggro'ish deck so the deck was built envisioning an aggro metagame. Here's what i played:

Name Qty Sideboard

Underground Sea 4
Polluted Delta 4
Verdant Catacombs 1
Wasteland 3
Bayou 2
Tropical Island 2
Misty Rainforest 4
Drowned Catacomb 1
Riptide Laboratory 1
Creeping Tar Pit 1
Snapcaster Mage 4
Tarmogoyf 4
Force of Will 4
Spell Snare 3
Brainstorm 4
Hymn to Tourach 4
Ghastly Demise 4
Jace, the Mind Sculptor 4
Diabolic Edict 2
Dismember 2
Ponder 2
Vendilion Clique 0 3
Leyline of the Void 0 4
Thoughtseize 0 4
Pernicious Deed 0 4

Rounds (no particular order it was a swiss tournament where everyone played between against each other):
Elves (2-0)
Bant (2-0)
Affinity (2-0)
Reanimator (2-0)
Bant (1-2)
Helm-Line Combo (1-2)
Merfolk (2-0)

My Loss against the combo player came from a mull to 5 and a T2 kill from him, and against Bant he got Loam + wasteland lock the turn before i played Jace. The rest was pretty much smooth sailing. This deck is the real deal...

Regards

2sided3angle
12-19-2011, 09:29 AM
Thanks 2sided!

The only MD changes I did to Marijn's list was to

- replace the POnder with a Spell Pierce (I probably have a selective memory to it beeing useful in a lot of g1 situations - I do not know if this is optimal)

- replace Liliana with deed, because they have a similar role with deed beeing more powerful IMO. Also Lightning Bolt, drayad arbor, aven mindcensor & snapcaster mage are big enemys of Liliana and many decks which are popular and need to be considered run those cards.
I can definitely get behind those changes. Will need to try those out and test the heck out of it.

Sorry I can't spew any knowledge into this thread; I am slowly learning the deck from everyone's views and comments to better myself with this deck.

wizard_of_gore
12-20-2011, 10:24 AM
Helo guys!

I notice this deck:
http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7312&iddeck=53188

I know it isn't "classic" BUG control list, but this is the closest topic/deck to post it.

I really like idea about adding NO package into BUG shell, since the deck can play similar strategy like bant or RUG. Since i play decks like rock, bant, landstill, team america, i own all cards for this deck. So, i what do you think about this natural order build? The thing that most atracts me to NO Bug is additional discard and mass destruction plan alongside the classic UGx shell (filters, countermagic, removal, efficient creatures, mana ramp etc). The downside of the deck is spot removal which is not good like swords to plowshares (like any BUG deck list)

So, what's your opinion?

catmint
12-20-2011, 12:20 PM
Hi,

it is basically NO RUG switching the RED for black. It is a new idea, so definitely worth opening a new thread in new and development decks or posting it in NO RUG. The deck is surely strong running only powerful cards, but I don't like it in a meta full of tempo decks, since the manabase is vulnerable.

I played NO Rug when MM was legal, but moved away from it since there is no good way to abuse snapcaster mage in that shell.

wizard_of_gore
12-20-2011, 01:49 PM
UGw and UGr decks has it's own versions for natural order, and i think that BUG decks deserve same atention. I will test deck theese days and i'll post results here.

catmint
12-23-2011, 12:37 AM
Here an interesting tournament win of BUG in a 50 person tournament.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7344&iddeck=53448

It is going more in the direction of deedstill with no goyfs maindeck, but much more board control: 2 deed, 3 liliana + 1 Innocent Blood.

Playing only 3 hymn and 4 pointed discard is also kind of interesting.
He does not have the other 2 deeds in the SB which is just totally weird to me...

The 3 goyfs and 1 V-clique in the SB to help versus the combo matchup where a fast clock is important,

In general I do like the idea of having more board control maindeck (especially because Maverick HAS to be considered in Europe), but not having goyf is kind of strange. The snapcaster body seems pretty irrelevant...Also I would be afraid to run into timeouts too often. Does anyone like to test this or has experience with this approach?

__________________

Aside from that

What I do not like about BUG control is that it is very vulnerable to burn. If I go to my local tournament I am aware that I can have a loss in the early round versus some kid with a 50 dollar burn deck, however the recently successful U/R delver burn strategy has a much better matchup versus us than RUG Tempo and is a viable option for the experienced blue players.

Goblin Guide cannot be killed with ghastly demise eraly enough. Thoughtseize/Dismember is stupid. Price of progress ridicolous. Besides the nut draw including hymn/goyf/snare I don't see us having a shot versus burn strategies. Does anyone already have a good plan versus U/R burn or experience versus that deck?

Since I do not see any good answers in BUG I tested a bit implementing the same gamplean in BUW, where a SFM package replaces goyf. While this looks interesting in theory there is 1 BIG problem, which is the reason I think why none of the Esper builds showing up is running Hymn to tourach. In BUG green is a splash and you do everything in UB. In BUW black and white are equally important in the early game making you much more vulnerable to a single wasteland if you fetch Underground sea + Scrubland. It is a different story fetching Underground sea and Tundra (altough still 1 wasteland can cut 1 color), but then Hymn can't be supported.

What makes BUG's manabase more consistant and easy to play through wastelands is because as a default you go for Underground Sea's and only in desperate/bad situations for early green.

So no Esper for Hymn lovers I am afraid...Also in my testing I played incidentally a lot versus Affinity, Entchantress and Maverick making me miss deed so much that I dropped the idea of BUW control. :laugh:

jandax
01-09-2012, 11:03 AM
I can atest to the burn MU results you've found, catmint. Sure, we can load the board up and play garbage like Chill or other color hosers. But what I've found is that tight play and winning the die roll goes a longer way towards helping the matchup than having a certain card or two in the 75. This accounts for straight Mono R burn, U/R delver burn, and one-drop Zoo/Sligh with their 12+ burn spells and Lavamen. The key to them beatung BUG control is to get in early damage with lil dudes and reach from the top deck with burn or more dudes. Deed always seemed a turn too late, even mroe so on the draw. We're just going to have to chalk this one up as an unfavorable MU, one of the few IMHO.

Samara
01-14-2012, 09:58 PM
Removed. See down there \/

catmint
01-16-2012, 07:18 AM
I did not play the bob build a lot, so I can't really contribute to this (there has been a very good discussion on the previous pages though). The biggest reason why I chose not to play bob is because I don't want to be proactive except for discard and become vulnerable to removal.

Some comments to your decklist:

- Daze is perfectly viable if confidant is the primary gameplan

- I would rather play wasteland than mishra in a deck that has access to life from the loam

- IMO: if you want to support hymn (MD or SB), you don't have the option to run basic lands. I also don't want to cut Hymn from the maindeck since this card is the main reason i play that deck.

- Snapcaster is the 2nd big reason i play the deck, so not cuttable IMO. Maybe you dont want to play 4 because of the antisynergy with daze.

- I like to test phantasmal image myself. 3 seems a lot though.

- 3 Ponder are not necessary IMO

- Unearth is very strong with confidant and snapcaster!

check out other successful confidant builds:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7395&iddeck=53811
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7268&iddeck=52889
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7268&iddeck=52889


Looking forward to your results!

jandax
01-16-2012, 07:30 AM
Unearth is just nuts for matchups without Swords/Path. No one plays around it or with it in the back of their mind. It's purely a reset button, and something to abuse with ETB critters like Clique and Snappy. Even getting your Goyf back after a Deed is enough of a game plan to follow. Plus, in the tempo matchups it's a house. For one card it turns on all your threats and blanks their removal/counters. Run Reanimate if there's a lot of reanimator in your area for obvious reasons, otherwise, test out three between the sideboard and main to get a good feel for the card. Then decide if it's for your deck or not. Either way, you'll gain some nice perspective and probably pick up a new tool to help in lots of sticky situations.

Samara
01-16-2012, 04:21 PM
First of all, thank a lot, I was waiting for the aswers ^^.

So... I've been playing against UR delver a LOT, because I think that if I can handle UR delver and UW-Blade, then I probabily can handle a large portion of the meta, since the strongest control and strongest tempo seens to be then both. I plan having a combo/grave hate sideboard, but I still didn't think enought about it.

And learned a few things.

Daze IS insane. Being able to cast a bob in turn 2 and keep him alive.... while (on the play) not having to force a first turn delver/lackey/vial or a 2nd turn stoneforger is just so important.

Also having daze holds down the opponents playing around it....that is just perfect for us... (a turn 3 stoneforger/goyf will easily be snared.) ...makes the game a lot easier.

Yes,sometimes I wish a had wastelands, but the mishra's are there for a some reasons. (Its helps in matchups when I need to go "agro" just countering and atacking... It also helps me in goyf wars (thats very important))... Still, sometimes I think that wastes and a loam in the sideboard could be better. But wastes without stifles doesn't look very awsome for me.

About Hymn... Was undoubtly one of the strongest cards of the deck, but, cause of mana intensiveness and tempo loss and my 2CMC slot being overload, I endup cuting it off. I also like having basics, for budgetary reasons, and for "being wasted" reasons.

Other reason is because of the tempo decks that I face... I fell that I can't "spend" my turn 2 casting a hymn (of course catmint, in your build (much more controlish, you have a lot of tools to regain control of the game, kinda a pure control BUG, mine is much more of a hybrid build) so, If I had hymns, would be 2, for when the opponent has only 3-4 cards in hand. Don't know if worth it. Also can't find room for it.

3 Images ARE a lot. I cuted for 2, With snapcasters and Unearth It gets even more insane... I won a game making "Unearth targeting Snapcaster .... Flashbacked Uneath targeting Image coping the snapcaster....Flashbacked Demise his delver"

Gametesting a lot I also realize that 3 ponders are to much (amazing as you guys kinda predict my changes)...

As I said, I realy think maybe wastes would be better, but with this build I often win by hiting with goyf+mishra while countering his aswers, so, by now, I rather mishra's... (still thinking about it)

So I changed. And that's what I've playing now.

//Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Phantasmal Image
2 Snapcaster Mage

//Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
2 Ponder
1 Go for the Throat
1 Unearth

//Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
3 Island
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou


-----

What I like more about this build is how images and a lot of counters help you to uses opossite gameplans depending on the match.

Sometimes I will just Bob+(maybe image bob)+Protect bob+Aswer everything+Jace=Win.

Then the goyf turns a goyf staller, the discard hits stoneforgers and reliquarys, snares also help in board control, while bob gives me aswers to every single card... then comes jace, stoping my life loss and eventualy milling then for death.

And sometimes I will just Goyf+Image+Mishra+Suport atacks=Win.

Than my removal cleans path, discard hits his removals, snares hits his goyfs and casters, snap give more removal/unearth, jace bounces creatures and etc.

It can be agressive enoght to beat to death or race with creature+removals, but it can very easily assume a controlish position protecting jaces and bobs to win.

So... what are your opinions about it? :eyebrow: (And sorry for the english errors that might have o.o... I edited a hundred times to clean as much as i could xD)

Samara
01-16-2012, 04:29 PM
Since I use daze, maybe I could cut snares for 2 hymns and +1 Inquistion/toughtsieze... but snares are SO good. I would hate cuting it. That 1 unearth is very important, think of it as a 4th goyf than can be snapcaster+removal.

Note: Images are VERY strong, cause it can copy not only goyfs/delvers/bobs but also legendary creatures to kill then. And I'had one day copied a mishra to gain one more land that can also beat or pump the another...It also can't be plowed, so it will always be a target for unearth/reanimate (however you won't gain life, I think).

But be careful on landing one with only one creature on the board without force for backup, because u can easily get two-for-oned

catmint
01-16-2012, 05:52 PM
wasteland is very powerful even without stifle. It still can randomly decide games and there are very often some utility lands we need to get rid off.

lol @ snapcaster/unearth/image interaction. :)
it just sucks that there is so much swords out there.... makes unearth much worse... (still awesome though)

Samara
01-16-2012, 06:28 PM
wasteland is very powerful even without stifle. It still can randomly decide games and there are very often some utility lands we need to get rid off.

lol @ snapcaster/unearth/image interaction. :)
it just sucks that there is so much swords out there.... makes unearth much worse... (still awesome though)

That's why (besides the room problems) that I just use one. I much like already lost at least one creature by combat when I draw unearth, even so, I can always cycle it and still gain value "snapcastering" it...

You find worth using 4 wastes for that random ocasions? Worth taking out mishras?

(not taking merit from it, the power of win a game by mana screw just cause you have a waste there is something desirable... also I can destroy his waste if tapped"...)

Samara
01-16-2012, 09:04 PM
So Catmint, I only now saw your post about UR Burn Delver.

My best friend has it... the build with more burn actualy, and I get like 40/60 on pre-side (we play friendly and trying to improve each other plays so we almost never sideboarded)...

Besides that...my build its far from yours.

You are right when you say that demise don't kill guide the turn it lands, but guide also helps you neting lands. This may seens stupid, but realy helps, with a top or ponder, it is almost a bob for me. Anyway, the guide its not so much to worry, you can cast goyf soon in time, also you can protect him... the real problem is the delver in first turn.

I realize that my 40/60 are nothing more than the odds of him having delver in starter hand on the play. Its almost impossible to recover.

So? How to do it?

I assure you that deed helps a lot... All times that I won are something like: goyf to stop guide... or demise to stop delver... rarely both...

Then... you don't counter his goyfs... save snare for price of progress, it will worth it...

a couple turns latter you deed all the board.... Then lands a jace and keep "leveling him up" using fateseal (in him) garanting he never draws nothing that you can't handle... screwing his draws (yes, he fetches a lot to prevent this)...

Then win with jace.

I played with him A LOT when I used to have 2 deed MB and a much more controling build (like yours catmint)

The only gameplan that worked for beat him... and rug... was literary to trade everything you have for everything he has... again, save snare for price of progress... its kinda easy after you get stifled with a 3 or 4 land hand.

After both of you are in topdeck with a goyf each... most likely you will draw into jace to win the match... the same way I told before... fateseal him to screw his drawsand then mill him.

Its a very hard match, thats why I like to play it xD... also that's why I got into "tempo hybrid" build. For RUG and UR Delver.

Samara
01-16-2012, 09:17 PM
Pos side I figure that the best you can do is to Extract his main threats. Mostly goyf and delver. He surprisely is almost unable to win without these.

(board out force)

catmint
01-17-2012, 03:47 AM
Concerning wasteland:
I think the occasion where wastelands have a significant impact on the game happens quite regular. That and the fact that it wins you some games where the opponent has a bad draw is enough reason for me to run 4. I used to run 3 and 1 Riptide Laboratory, but I found the situation that you draw Riptide and keep using a snapcaster mage is very very rare, where just gettting good value from a wasteland is common.

The 1-2 Loam/4 Wasteland package is a really powerful thing to have in the mirror, against RUG Tempo, Punishing Fire decks, Esper, Junk,.... basically every deck that is attacking your resources and/or runs a 3 color manabase.

I never played with Mishra's and I can imagin they do some very good defensive and offensive work. However land drops are very important and I would not like to open the opponents lightning bolt up to become a stone rain just to block some creature. With wasteland you have the choice.. do you want a colorless land or trade with the opponent land (not with a cheap removal spell). Without standstill or Spellstutter for Mutuavault I don't see a reason to run manlands except for the random creeping tar pit, which is a UB dual and the ultra late game decided because of beeing unblockableö.


Concerning the U/R Burn Matchup.
If they run the Stifle Package odds go up!
As i posted in some previous posts I developed a game/boarding plan that is very successful versus RUG Tempo except they start like zoo in the first 1-3 turns (which is rarely the case). Versus monored burn the matchup is very bad.. Burn having blue cards makes the matchup better for us IMO but it is all about price of progress for me.

The optimal hand verus burn I would like to see is:
Land, Land, Inquisition, Goyf, Goyf, Hymn, Spell Snare

Without the early Goyf I find the matchup very hard to win, since they keep drawing business (also in the form of 1RR - 2 damage in your upkeep) and you don't have time for the Jace win.

gamegeek2
01-18-2012, 12:23 AM
Is it possible to play something of a "moderate" version of this deck style, between Stifle-Waste tempo and Jace control? I feel exactly that sort of deck would be excellent for my local metagame, which features numerous regulars but also many low-budget decks and/or monocolor decks. As far as blue decks go, tempo decks aren't seen often where I play, with Bant and Stoneblade being far more common.

Hence, I've come up with this list:

9 Fetches
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Go for the Throat
2 Smother
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Unearth

--- Sideboard ---
3 Spell Pierce
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Ghastly Demise
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Life from the Loam

I think this list strikes a good compromise in a few ways:

1. It plays 4 Delver of Secrets, which is one of the most efficient creatures I've had the pleasure of playing with in ages. This guy just gets there so often, I find it hard to not justify playing him in a blue deck with an instant/sorcery count above 24 or so.
2. It has 21 lands, which is what the old Team America decks played.
3. It has a strong suite of removal and discard that is capable of dealing with any threat, supported by 4 Wasteland for mana disruption and destroying key lands.
4. It has 22 blue cards for Force of Will.
5. It is capable of entering board-control mode after sideboard.

My main idea for changing the deck is driven out of concern that 21 lands might not be sufficient for this style of deck, given the sort of mana commitment that Snapcaster demands, and (out of the sideboard) Pernicious deed. Hence, I'm considering:

-1 Ponder
-2 Unearth
+1 Fetch/Bayou/Trop/Tar Pit
+2 Jace

In this case, I would have 2 Jace in place of the Unearths, and 1 Ponder would be gone in favor of another land. This would make the deck more controlling, and would diminish the effectiveness of Delver somewhat; however, 24 "hits" is still a good 40% chance of flipping, even larger when you factor in BS/Ponder setups and fetches. If this is too significant I could see putting the 4th Ponder or another Unearth back in for a Jace.

catmint
01-18-2012, 02:06 AM
Interesting approach gamegeek.

what comes to my mind:

Without Jace your chances of winning matches in "board control mode" go way down, because when you bring in deed you have to dake out delver and therefore loose the ability to race. So after you traded a lot with maverick and played deed for a 2 or 3 for 1 you need something to win.... Goyf won't get the job done, so without Jace these games are very very hard to win.

21 lands seems just a little low... there are plenty of BUG control lists running confidant... Some of them seem to get away with 21-22 lands because they play confidant as a primary gameplan and have daze. As you said to support the "board control" mode, you need snapcaster, deed and jace which hall require a lot of land drops!

So I like the changes that you want to make. Unearth without confidant does also not seem good. I also think you can easily go down to 1 Ponder and play 3 Jace and 23 lands. You have so much else to do in the early turns that Ponder might prefer to sit in hand and you want to jace and snapcaster in the later turns... I think having the advantage of not needing to Ponder for Lands is a bigger upside than the ability to look for something with Ponder. 1 blue mana is just a lot in Legacy and "all we need to do" is not make sure we don't fall behind before we can play our superior spells.

THe maindeck removal is all 2 cmc which has not a good synergy with snapcaster. These days many people play 1-2 ghastly demise and/or 1-2 dismember. I use 1 GFTT ,2 ghastly demise and 1 dismember.

Against "low-budget decks and/or monocolor decks" (except for dredge and burn, which are tough) I think deed and jace are the most reliable weapons!

aznepyon7
01-18-2012, 09:55 AM
Is it possible to play something of a "moderate" version of this deck style, between Stifle-Waste tempo and Jace control? I feel exactly that sort of deck would be excellent for my local metagame, which features numerous regulars but also many low-budget decks and/or monocolor decks. As far as blue decks go, tempo decks aren't seen often where I play, with Bant and Stoneblade being far more common.

Hence, I've come up with this list:

9 Fetches
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Go for the Throat
2 Smother
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Unearth

--- Sideboard ---
3 Spell Pierce
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Ghastly Demise
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Life from the Loam

I think this list strikes a good compromise in a few ways:

1. It plays 4 Delver of Secrets, which is one of the most efficient creatures I've had the pleasure of playing with in ages. This guy just gets there so often, I find it hard to not justify playing him in a blue deck with an instant/sorcery count above 24 or so.
2. It has 21 lands, which is what the old Team America decks played.
3. It has a strong suite of removal and discard that is capable of dealing with any threat, supported by 4 Wasteland for mana disruption and destroying key lands.
4. It has 22 blue cards for Force of Will.
5. It is capable of entering board-control mode after sideboard.

My main idea for changing the deck is driven out of concern that 21 lands might not be sufficient for this style of deck, given the sort of mana commitment that Snapcaster demands, and (out of the sideboard) Pernicious deed. Hence, I'm considering:

-1 Ponder
-2 Unearth
+1 Fetch/Bayou/Trop/Tar Pit
+2 Jace

In this case, I would have 2 Jace in place of the Unearths, and 1 Ponder would be gone in favor of another land. This would make the deck more controlling, and would diminish the effectiveness of Delver somewhat; however, 24 "hits" is still a good 40% chance of flipping, even larger when you factor in BS/Ponder setups and fetches. If this is too significant I could see putting the 4th Ponder or another Unearth back in for a Jace.

Stifle-wasteland is more of a Tempo TA that isn't as effective as it used to be. I find it just better to go discard/ up the counter power with Snares/Pierces.

Try using 1 Ghastly Demise MD. Still think in tempo, without Tombstalker, it's quite playable.

Smother seems to be doing quite well. I would probably consider that over GftT. Perhaps a 3:1? Alternatively, you could change one GftT for a Dismember (highly recommend) which makes it a bit more tempoish but seems to be very effective to speed the deck up when you want to leave mana open for counter/discard.

I dislike BUG control's lack of punch against faster decks. That has always been my biggest criticism with the deck. I would like more if possible, but I'm not sure Delver is the answer. It lacks punch in the later game which it is important to make every card count.

I think Jace should be MD. It really helps against Maverick and other decks that TA tempo has an issue with. It really is core in BUG control and I don't think adding 2 will really hurt the deck.

Also consider Liliana. It's quite good but I don't think more than 1 is necessary if you run 2 Jace. Liliana really prevents combo from ever gaining back ground. It crushes both creature-based and storm-based combo f you can get it going.

Alternatively, 2 Lilianas and 1 Jace might work. Haven't tested that though.

Good luck with playtesting. Let us know the results!

EDIT:

So the changes I recommend makes it a bit more controllish than what you originally had but I think it will be more effective. I think it really hinges on how effective Delver will be. I hope it works.

Summary:

+ 1 Dismember/Ghastly Demise; -1 2 CC removal
+2 Jace (maybe Liliana?)


Also I don't think you even need 3 Ponders. Try 2? I also think 20-21 Blue count still makes it quite consistent. I'm quite adamant on never letting the blue count drop below 19 despite the common belief that 18 is sufficient.

TonyRo
01-18-2012, 03:44 PM
What are everyone's thoughts on Levin list posted yesterday (EDIT: Today but I'm a night-owl) on SCG?

atropos
01-18-2012, 03:55 PM
What are everyone's thoughts on Levin list posted yesterday (EDIT: Today but I'm a night-owl) on SCG?

Can you link us with the list, please?

Samara
01-18-2012, 04:14 PM
I was looking at the decklists and saw that, often, people run cards just for their power, while ignoring the specific role that the card would offer in a gameplan.

people sometimes missunderstand the way that the cards affect the gameplan, that leads to confusions about costs and tempo/control cards been used in suboptimal ways

So, to help these people, also for organize my own ideas about the cards I would like to use that I write that.

If someone has found something WRONG or something to complement, be free to write some as well. It's just that I learned a bunch of stuff about BUG these times, and would like to share with all you o/

I'm not trying to look the master of BUG o.o... I still have a lot that I just don't understand.

(forgive the english errors, I still learning english ^^)

Also, for those who don't like it, forgive the Team America talk, but understanding how team america works is very important for BUG on what NOT TO DO.

Bug/TA Deck Tech and Explanations:

--- Must have cards for TA, BUG or Hybrid.

4 Force of will - No one likes geting 2-1, but you need it, or you will lose for combo, or a first turn vial, goblin lackey, sometimes even a first turn stifle can lock you out of the game.

4 Brainstorm - If you running TEMPO use 4, If you are running Hybrid use 4... If you are running control, use [5-6], ohh..you can't, so use 4.


* < That means "Recomendation".

TA AMERICA [Full TEMPO build] Only In TA.

Stifle [0or4] - Inconsistency in mana denial is not your solution for room problems, run always 0 or 4, and don't even think about being a dead card in lategame, if you are thinking about lategame, then you are doing it wrong, go to BUG Hybrid or Bug control.

Wasteland [4] - No, you have no option here, if you are playing a Tempo build, you will play 4. Don't you dare to run Basics in team america!

Daze [3-4*] - Daze its very important in TA since it alows you to always tap out for playing e every disruption or threat that you can while interacting with the aswers that opponent will try to provide. It's very strong in TA because the fast clock and fast disrupt and mana denial "calls" your opponent into your daze, and if he knows you have it, he will play around it, that's also is great for TA.

----------------------------------

BUG control - [Full CONTROL build] Only in BUG.

Pernicious Deed/Enginnered Explosives [0-2] - If you are going full control, you need someway to swap the board or a way to actualy reach late game.

Ancestral Vision - If you are not running confidants. You NEED something <o>... ANYTHING that gives you card advantage (and snapcaster), how do you expect to aswer the cards of a deck that runs fewer lands (that means more things) than you if you are not neting cards?...hum!? How?! Tell me! O.o

3th Jace- Probabily your strongest win condition, if you don't trust me, trust jace, he knows what he's talking about.

---------------------------------

Hand Disruption Package

Tempo Packages
1CMC - Thoughtsieze - You don't care about your life totals, if you are running stifles and dazes, you care about maximum card quality, because you have fewer lands (so more cards) and you have the fastest clock. If you are running 1CMC Disruption run 4*

2CMC - Hymn to Tourach - It's realy important that people doesn't build their deck with "what if i get hymned?" in theirs heads, use this in your advantage, if you hit 2 lands, you can go full land disruption for the win, If you hit 2 Nom-lands you know that probabily his gameplan will not be acomplished this time, use all information in your favor, delay their aswers can be vital to beat fast.

BUG Control Packages

1CMC - Thoughtsieze/IofK/Duress- You CARE about your life total, removing a early threat is very important to stabilish control at time. If you run Thoughtsiezes, Run 2 and 2 Inquisition of Kozilek. This will help you to diminish your self inflicted damage that could be important in a long matchup. I use 3 Inquisitions. (Cause it hits almost everything that matters) Also rememeber here that you have more lands and more time to abuse snapcastering, so 1CMC may not be so much of a 1 for 1. Also Information is even more critical for you, knowing what to counter and what to pinch to FoW can most times make you win a game by snaring that stoneforger istead of taping out.

2CMC - Hymn to Tourach - This time you don't want to ruin their early plan, istead, you may use to steal that last piece of resistence of the player, using when he has 4 cards in hand, starting to get back in the game can be very strong. Also using with snapcaster is more of "real value" if you are going control.

------------------------------------

Removal Package

I often see people confused about this. Actualy a strong removal package for a TA or BUG is simple, but using 4 Go for the Throat in your FULL tempo build or running 4 dismembers in your BUG is not the way to get there. (but also kills)

A important thing is that if you are running control, and decided by run 4 toughtsiezes, you can't use 3 dismembers. You will just die... and if you use bob! Are u insane?

I will show what would be a optimal removal suite for every archetype.

Tempo Removal Suite:
[2-3] Ghastly Demise - Stifles, wastelands, ponders, fecthes, I can't see you not dealing with a goyf here. Remember that people also cast Knight of the Reliquary or Terravore, BUT You have a counterspell suite for this, Also, they are 3CMC, So smother wouldn't hit then too. (Sometimes demise does)
[1-3] Dismember - Dismember is a snuff out for people how use 4 Snapcasters or for people how wish they could cast snuff out without losing 4 life EVERYTIME.
[0-2] Snuff Out - Snuff out is GREAT for FULL tempo build, obvious reasons, but I would rather use always with Dismember, for dealing with black creatures in some way. Also If you plan to abuse snapcaster, don't run this. (you shouldn't abuse snapcaster so much in a full tempo build, you don't have 23 lands!)
[0-1] Go for the Throat/Smother - You just can't pay 2CMC for a removal, also with fewer lands, using this with snapcaster would be hell.

Control Removal Suite:
[1-3] Ghastly Demise - You are not so good in filling grave, also you could have a lot other ways to dealing with creatures, like spell snare. Still, killing for 1CMC, being able to snapcaster easily is always good. In full control, I only expect this in mid-late game. Also wanna be able to shuffle back if I lack cards in grave to kill a big creature.
[1-4] Go for the Throat - If you are facing lategame, expect a lot of KotR.
[0-1] Smother - If you has deed in MB, I don't see that being so necessary, Also It shares the same target as Snare.

------------------------------

Creatures Package

I also see people using wrong creatures for their own gameplan.

Tempo Creature Suite:
4 Tarmogoyf (no, there is no option here, you will run 4.)
[0-4] Tombstalker - Tombstalker is evasive and kills in 4 turns, TA realy needs a fast clock, because if the game goes long, he won't (suppose to not) be able to handle a control matchup
[0-2] Terravore - Its a earth tombstalker, has trample, kills fast, Same as above. Also, if you are gonna run bobs (you shouldn't in tempo build) you should avoid using tombstalker.
[2-4] Snapcaster Mage - Some would say "auto 4" but I think being a 3CMC "do anything" is still a 3CMC, if you are going TA, you probabily should run [3*-4] of these.
[0-2] Vendillion Clique - Again, helps to disrupt the opponent game plan while being evasive and hiting 3. Still, is 3CMC, I rather using more Snapcasters.

Control Creature Suite:
[If you are running not creatures: Sometimes only snapcasters with deed MD and 3 jaces may be very strong, If you chose to only run snapcasters, consider using 3 sower of temptation or vedalken shackles in SB for after they sideout their removal]

[3-4*] Tarmagoyf - Even if you are not in strong clock plan, people use Goyf, and the best aswer to goyf is a goyf. Use 3 only if you use at least 2 of another big creature. You still need him to go down.
[0-2] Terravore/Tombstalker - This would work here as a finisher, diferently from TA, here you need only 2.
[3-4*] Snapcaster Mage - Think of it as a 3CMC spell that does anything that you need. Also blocks.

----------------------------

Random Cards comments.

If you wanna go Hybrid, you have to be fast, what's the point of go hybrid and not being fast enoght? So you would just go control right? So be Hybrid looks very much with a tempo build, but without the "suicide" cards and with a 3th jace.

Have some way of drawing cards, and some way of protecting that. You can't just use Bob and no daze and no 1CMC disruption, bob is gonna die, so if you are gonna use bobs, Use anything that protects him (besides force of will, or course)

If you are gonna use Delver of Secrets, You can't do it in a more Controlish build!, If you are taping a delver, you want at least tap a goyf also, could be a mishra, anything. But using delver in a deck that lack the ability to abuse of it's TEMPO gain, its at least suboptimal.

If you expect late game... Watch for late-dead cards, like daze or stifle. (please don't run stifle in hybrid)

If you are going to use stifle, wasteland and daze. You can't use DEED! or even the 3th jace. If your deck has the ability of geting a tempo advantage, it should as well, be able to win the game BEFORE the opponent stabilishes, So a strong clock like Goyf or Tombstalker is realy necessary.

o.o... that's it... now I notice that I did not talk about the counterspell suite. If someone else wanna do it, that's ok by me... If no one does, I do it someday.

So, what u guys think?

jandax
01-18-2012, 04:18 PM
Congrats, Catmint at getting this thread in the DTB!

@ Levin's list questions:

It's probably a step in the right direction. I really like the deck but for the life of me I just can't win with it. Maybe it's my play style (not control), maybe it's all the play mistakes I make, but I just don't feel a list that we/the thread have been discussing can win in the hands of multiple people like UWx Stoneblade/GWr Maverick can. Through experience and a bit of research I conclude that at least for myself BUG control isn't a deck to be playing right now.

Levin's list on the other hand does things that are adapting to the proper metagame, I like the ideas behind it. With any deck it's going to need some testing.

fdiv_bug
01-18-2012, 04:25 PM
Can you link us with the list, please?

His list is:

3 Pernicious Deed
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Go for the Throat
1 Repeal
4 Spell Snare
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Ancestral Vision
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thoughtseize
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

He leaves the sideboard as an exercise to the reader, pretty much. I like the look of it, but I used to run BUG Landstill back in the day, so I like the slow "where are your win-cons?" kind of decks. I'd probably replace the Sunken Ruins with a Creeping Tar Pit, but that might just be my preference. I was also thinking of replacing the 1 Ghastly Demise/1 Go for the Throat/1 Repeal with 3 Dismember (or maybe leaving the Repeal and just going with 2 Dismember).

catmint
01-18-2012, 06:35 PM
Thanks for the good overview Samara...


Levins approach is quite different and I surely want to test and think about it.
Concerning adapting to beat maverick I posted the following result/list earlier in the thread.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7344&iddeck=53448

biggest question is if the 2/1 body really matters in game 1 (postboard surely with goyf).

The reason why i still like goyf is because there are some matchups like dredge, burn u/r burn, combo where an early goyf increases your chances of winning significantly. Feels easier to side him out than siding him in.

I like my postboard matchup versus maverick so i can see myself running a different configuration of "the same" 75 to have more board control maindeck. Giving up Hymn and snapcaster like levin is kind of weird, but he obviously relies on visions to get ahead.

Concerning the removal I would surely include some amout of innocent blood in levins deck.

Koby
01-18-2012, 06:45 PM
I like the approach (and have been thinking along the same lines, Deed > Maverick), but I can't get behind the heavy lean on Liliana during a stale board presence without also including Life from the Loam. I tried to theorize a list during my boring meeting this morning and I stumbled on what I usually remember the BUG-still lists looking like.

I second the idea of Creeping Tarpit for the more Landstill version. It also seems like a few manlands are missing from the deck in general.

wcm8
01-18-2012, 06:47 PM
Herp derp, let's take Deedstill, add Liliana, call it a new deck and write an article about it.

Plenty of decks only run 4-5 removal spells in the main anyways, so the value you gain from not giving them targets needs to exceed the value of running good creatures. In this metagame and with the options available in BUG I don't think the value's there. A 'pure control' deck is going to have difficulty in an open meta without Mental Misstep.

I also think his build would get rocked hard by UR/URG delver.

Koby
01-18-2012, 07:05 PM
I also think his build would get rocked hard by UR/URG delver.

Lightning Bolt in general.

wcm8
01-18-2012, 07:18 PM
^Add to that REB and Pyroblast.

And not only is Ancestral Visions terribly slow, but it's yet another Stifle target.

xfxf
01-18-2012, 07:29 PM
Herp derp, let's take Deedstill, add Liliana, call it a new deck and write an article about it.

Plenty of decks only run 4-5 removal spells in the main anyways, so the value you gain from not giving them targets needs to exceed the value of running good creatures. In this metagame and with the options available in BUG I don't think the value's there. A 'pure control' deck is going to have difficulty in an open meta without Mental Misstep.

I also think his build would get rocked hard by UR/URG delver.

This.

Prior to MM ban some BUG Deedstill lists already started replacing the Standstills with Ancestral Visions, his list is like a rehash of some of the ideas BUG Deedstill players tried out after the ban. As control players we like to be able to play classic control decks with few win conditions, board sweepers and counterspells but this is not it.

In Legacy you have to control the board, the stack and the graveyard. Such classic control lists are aiming to control only the board. But even with the board control strategy these decks are still weak to fast aggro decks and red decks. There is an abundance of those currently. Also you don't have enough non-conditional, strong counterspells to play a purely defensive game against combo decks, you don't have discard effects to preemptively disrupt combo decks, you don't have efficient ways to deal with graveyard strategies other than straight-up hate. So if you can't beat combo and you can't beat aggro what good is a control deck? I'm afraid blue control "has to" include the "aggro" element in this meta.

Samara
01-18-2012, 08:03 PM
biggest question is if the 2/1 body really matters in game 1 (postboard surely with goyf).

The reason why i still like goyf is because there are some matchups like dredge, burn u/r burn, combo where an early goyf increases your chances of winning significantly. Feels easier to side him out than siding him in.

Concerning the removal I would surely include some amout of innocent blood in levins deck.

I don't think the body matters at all. I think it may be used to block but isn't a win con... He only relies on jace to that.

The aproach of "full control, no creatures" (the snapcaster is there only for recuring spells), plays much more like a standstill running black (deedstill) than a BUG at, the "no hymn" in a control deck surely make this clear. Even so. In a meta so full os tempo archetype I won't see it as a good choice.

Using no Goyf surely is a atempt to "blank" the removal spells... The engine of the deck is deed+liliana for board control and jace+ancestral vision for card advantage, so I can see why Hymn it's not such a good ideia, You are gaining from "useless" cards in his hand, so you rather have counters instead of discard.

CookedChestnuts
01-18-2012, 09:49 PM
Drew Levin is an idiot. Why would he recommend this pile when one of the most played decks (UR Delver), plays 3-4 Price of Progress main, RUG Tempo is a deck that eats this alive, Liliana isn't that great, Maverick is a tier 1 deck, especially Punishing Maverick to remove his Planeswalkers.

Herr derr, typical Drew Levin article. It's like a bad BUGStill.

sdematt
01-19-2012, 12:01 AM
I like where his article is going in this sense: you should try playing BUG colours since Deed is great. That's a pretty cool point, so I'm all ears for that.

I don't REALLY agree with his list, since I've been running Counterspells in Thopters for a while now, and I've been unimpressed (especially in a 2-3 colour deck, ugh). I'd actually suggest Mana Leak (please, read before throwing bottles at me). A friend of mine has been testing it in Stoneblade, and it's quite good. It's way easier on the mana, and most of the time, it's a hard counter anyway. Might be worth a shot as a 2-of.

I think Snapcaster adds lots of value, but I also agree with the fact that if you're running BUG and Liliana, run some Loams.

Again, I wrote a little bit about this in the Rock thread, but when building a deck now, you have to see what decks are good and why, and use common cards from that pool. Deed right now is really good, hands down. I'm not saying Maverick can't reboot after a good Deeding, but it's plenty good. I think this deck could run at least 1 Creeping Tar Pit, and possibly run 24 lands instead of 23.

BUG has access to many tools against many of the good decks: Deed, Counterspells, removal, Perish, etc.

I'm thinking something like:

3 Pernicious Deed
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Ghastly Demise
1 Innocent Blood
2 Deathmark
1 Life from the Loam
1 Perish


4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Mana Leak
2 Spell Pierce


4 Snapcaster Mage


1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Wasteland
Several Fetches
Correct Dual Lands
3-4 Basic Lands
24ish total

And then 1-2 Other cards for the maindeck. Sideboard options:

Extirpate
Perish
Loam
Tarmogoyf
Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm
Hand disruption
Krosan Grip
Gilded Drake

Point being, this list could and probably is garbage, but we need to keep in mind that Maverick is super good, so why not go with that? Nothing wrong with juicing the crap out of a popular deck. I'm just brainstorming, so thoughts?

-Matt

routlaw
01-19-2012, 01:15 AM
I've had some experience-not much-with this kind of BUG list and I see where Drew (disclaimer, not saying my own ideas are all that good, I am a bonafide baddie at this game) is coming from, it's just that his list lacks a bit of real world understanding about how things play out and what kind of deck characteristics a bonafide Legacy stack-based (not dedicated board control ala Nic Fit) control deck has to have.

Ancestral Visions is the poster child of variance in a deck that is very vulnerable to variance and tries for redundancy in most of its key parts (high land count, redundant countermagic and removal). AV in particular is very soft to REB and is really unimpressive after turn 3 or so. At that point you'd rather have almost any other ways to draw cards EOT (I've played Fact or Fiction in the recent past to good success) at instant speed and there's plenty of that in the format.

Maindeck discard is also really not where you want to be in this deck. Right now you can safely assume that most matchups are going to be against fair decks that are looking to play out their hands. Discard just trades one mana on your turn for one of their plays, leaving them capable of just playing out another different threat later on. The compressed curve of Legacy and the abundance of cheap answers makes grabbing things out of most fair deck's hands pretty miserable. Instead, it's better to just let them spend their mana playing out their threats, and you either answer them on the stack, kill them with undercosted removal effects, or let them build up and then nuke the world with Deed. Thoughtseize in particular is very scary, the lifeless is not negligible and this deck already has issues with anything playing Lightning Bolt. Targeted discard is something you bring in out of the board against combo to slow them down while you work towards getting to final phase of your anti combo game plan.

Personally I think the best backup (the main way to kill is always Jace unanswered) way for this deck to close out games is some kind of Intuition scheme with something like Loam and Worm Harvest. It's already a good idea to play Loam with Liliana to break the symmetry on the +1 and you're running Wastelands and manlands already, and Crucible and Deed just don't work out well together.

This also allows a compact sideboard package of Iona/Gigapede/Unburial Rites or some kind of savage turbo Raven's Crime turn against combo decks.

Hanni had a cool deck in development pre-Innistrad with Intuition as a glue card in the deck here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21620-U-B-g-The-Mind-Harvester) and it's a good read for what I think the way for people who aren't comfortable playing Standstill (and I am in that camp myself) in a format with Delvers, Goblin Guides, and sixty billion green dudes running around.

catmint
01-19-2012, 03:46 AM
I also thinnk Levins list might have trouble against tempo strategies, because his removal is slow, he does not have discard and is much more vulnerable to red-blast than the more common BUG control lists.

Burn (monored or U/R) will always suck for BUG. I know for sure that the wins that I get against these kind of decks all include an early goyfs and hymns.


Maindeck discard is also really not where you want to be in this deck. Right now you can safely assume that most matchups are going to be against fair decks that are looking to play out their hands. Discard just trades one mana on your turn for one of their plays, leaving them capable of just playing out another different threat later on. The compressed curve of Legacy and the abundance of cheap answers makes grabbing things out of most fair deck's hands pretty miserable. Instead, it's better to just let them spend their mana playing out their threats, and you either answer them on the stack, kill them with undercosted removal effects, or let them build up and then nuke the world with Deed. Thoughtseize in particular is very scary, the lifeless is not negligible and this deck already has issues with anything playing Lightning Bolt. Targeted discard is something you bring in out of the board against combo to slow them down while you work towards getting to final phase of your anti combo game plan.

I disagree on that. Thoughtseize/Inquistion is very powerful versus RUG and UW and also very welcome against maverick. Pointed discard and Spell pierce are there to make sure that you are able to implement the gameplan of deed/jace without beeing blown out by Choke, Pridemage (+GSZ), Krosan Grip (Sylvan Libary, KoR (Wastelands)).




Personally I think the best backup (the main way to kill is always Jace unanswered) way for this deck to close out games is some kind of Intuition scheme with something like Loam and Worm Harvest. It's already a good idea to play Loam with Liliana to break the symmetry on the +1 and you're running Wastelands and manlands already, and Crucible and Deed just don't work out well together.

This also allows a compact sideboard package of Iona/Gigapede/Unburial Rites or some kind of savage turbo Raven's Crime turn against combo decks.

Hanni had a cool deck in development pre-Innistrad with Intuition as a glue card in the deck here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21620-U-B-g-The-Mind-Harvester) and it's a good read for what I think the way for people who aren't comfortable playing Standstill (and I am in that camp myself) in a format with Delvers, Goblin Guides, and sixty billion green dudes running around.
I played that deck and let me tell you it is such a grind. You really really have to be ready and well trained to run such a deck in a tournament. Playing the commmon build with hymn and goyf gives you just a lot of faster and easier wins.

wcm8
01-19-2012, 09:26 AM
So the only really worthwhile suggestion being made in this article is 'hey, Deed is a really good card!*'

* except against combo. And most control decks. And most graveyard based decks. And aggro decks that are too fast and aren't piloted by idiots that go all in. And decks that run stifle

Yes Drew, we BUG players knew that Deed was a good card (mostly for SB except in a known meta), hence why just about every list is already running 2-4 in their 75.

Koby
01-19-2012, 03:37 PM
I don't think that the audience for Levin's article is people who frequent The Source; but rather people who casually observe Legacy from the other formats and wish to dabble here and there with last week's T16 decks. In that sense, I don't take too much from Levin's articles because it's usually a rehash of last week's discussion points already made here on The Source.

I do appreciate the approach, and getting players to think outside the box. Yes, Deed is bonkers against Maverick - that much is obvious. The question then becomes: how do we best build a deck that wraps around Deed while still having the necessary tools to win effectively in the wide-open metagame that is Legacy?

catmint
01-20-2012, 06:35 AM
I do appreciate the approach, and getting players to think outside the box. Yes, Deed is bonkers against Maverick - that much is obvious. The question then becomes: how do we best build a deck that wraps around Deed while still having the necessary tools to win effectively in the wide-open metagame that is Legacy?

That is the question and in order to be able to beat Maverick the G1 has to be better than what the most common BUG control lists ran. I am totally happy with my post-board results (altough it is still a fight and not a walk in the park), but with bad G1 odds it is still an uphill battle overall. My approach would be not to change the hole deck neglecting hymn, goyf and snapcaster mage because that's what made the deck successful in the first place, but to rather change the configuration of the 75 to make it more board control in G1... many players in decembers tcdecks did that.

For reference my next post-board list versus maverick:

24 lands including creeping tar pit & 4 Wasteland


2 Tarmogoyf
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Snapcaster Mage

4 ghastly demise
1 Darkblast
1 Go for the throat
1 Dismember
4 pernicious deed
2 Liliana of the Veil

3 Spell Pierce
2 thoughtseize
2 Inquisition
2 Surgical Extraction (Punishing) or 2 Hymn to Tourach

4 Brainstorm
1 Life from the Loam


To have more board control in G1 without giving too much away against the field I will test:
24 lands including creeping tar pit & 4 Wasteland

4 brainstorm
3 Jace
2 Liliana

3 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster Mage

2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce

2 Ghastly Demise
1 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat
2 Pernicious Deed

SB:
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Darkblast
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
1 Life from the Loam

aznepyon7
01-20-2012, 11:30 AM
That is the question and in order to be able to beat Maverick the G1 has to be better than what the most common BUG control lists ran. I am totally happy with my post-board results (altough it is still a fight and not a walk in the park), but with bad G1 odds it is still an uphill battle overall. My approach would be not to change the hole deck neglecting hymn, goyf and snapcaster mage because that's what made the deck successful in the first place, but to rather change the configuration of the 75 to make it more board control in G1... many players in decembers tcdecks did that.

For reference my next post-board list versus maverick:

24 lands including creeping tar pit & 4 Wasteland


2 Tarmogoyf
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Snapcaster Mage

4 ghastly demise
1 Darkblast
1 Go for the throat
1 Dismember
4 pernicious deed
2 Liliana of the Veil

3 Spell Pierce
2 thoughtseize
2 Inquisition
2 Surgical Extraction (Punishing) or 2 Hymn to Tourach

4 Brainstorm
1 Life from the Loam


To have more board control in G1 without giving too much away against the field I will test:
24 lands including creeping tar pit & 4 Wasteland

4 brainstorm
3 Jace
2 Liliana

3 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster Mage

2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce

2 Ghastly Demise
1 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat
2 Pernicious Deed

SB:
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Darkblast
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
1 Life from the Loam


Are you not ever concerned by BUG control's slow win condition? I feel like dragging out the game in this legacy environment isn't the best option and dropping a Goyf doesn't seem like something you would want to do. As you said before, this deck has issues with Burn. Perhaps there could be modifications MD that would make the MU less horrendous?

BTW, I've tried Massacre recently and it has been just insane not only against Maverick but Death and Taxes, Dead Ale variants, even against tribals like Gobbies and Elves though they don't have Plains. I haven't tried it against faster zoo but I would imagine it would be pretty good. BTW I don't think you've mentioned the matchup against zoo very much.

catmint
01-20-2012, 04:46 PM
I am worried about a slow wincondition...thats why you play Goyf... why wouldnt I want to drop him? after the deck did its work he is at least a 4/5, but usually more and kills quite fast.

Of course you don't want to start by dropping a goyf just like that without having disrupted the opponents hand most of the time. The matchups where you need him early is when you are in a hurry: dredge, burn, combo,...

I never played with Massacre but it honestly looks sick against Maverick. I am just very much in love with deed though, because it also takes knights, sylvan libraries, jittes,... Also I tend to bump into entchantress, affinity or some other randomness quite regulary where deed provides a huge edge. I also dont want to lower my instant spot removal count because it makes me nervous, so the first thing to cut would 1-2 Liliana. Playing Massacre in TA is a much easier decision IMO.

Concerning Zoo:
I honeslty never played against zoo since snapcaster was printed. In theory they have an edge g1, but in g2 and 3 you only have to worry about the nutdraw, since 8 removal + 4 snapcaster should prevent the early damage that brings you into bolt range.

Samara
01-20-2012, 05:36 PM
For reference my next post-board list versus maverick:

24 lands including creeping tar pit & 4 Wasteland


2 Tarmogoyf
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Snapcaster Mage

4 ghastly demise
1 Darkblast
1 Go for the throat
1 Dismember
4 pernicious deed
2 Liliana of the Veil

3 Spell Pierce
2 thoughtseize
2 Inquisition
2 Surgical Extraction (Punishing) or 2 Hymn to Tourach

4 Brainstorm
1 Life from the Loam


To have more board control in G1 without giving too much away against the field I will test:
24 lands including creeping tar pit & 4 Wasteland

4 brainstorm
3 Jace
2 Liliana

3 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster Mage

2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce

2 Ghastly Demise
1 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat
2 Pernicious Deed

SB:
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Darkblast
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
1 Life from the Loam


I think you should run 4 goyfs MD and 4 pos-side against maverick. I know you plan to disrupt they hole hand first, still, running 4 goyfs would help in a lot of matches. Pos-side you could cut one spot removal, cuz you have 4 deeds. Unearth could help you in a much more agressive pos-deed gameplan (with 4 casters, they should be a must have, try using 1)

(MD -1 Pierce +1 Goyf.) ... Still, you probabily want 4 pierce in 75
Don't worry, maverick is not a so hard matchup, with 2 deed MD you should be able to do just fine (I do), but, my build is much more tempo oriented.

(MD -1 Snare +1 Unearth)

With this changes you will notice a drastic change on your board presence... you should also be able to put opponents in a clock much faster.

gamegeek2
01-21-2012, 07:26 PM
On the maverick issue,

Deed is an excellent answer, but wouldn't Dystopia also be a good option vs. Maverick after sideboard? Also, Dystopia is far better against decks that play Natural Order, if that ever comes up, and is faster (it Edicts the opponent the first turn it hits play).

Other comments:

I'm still very unsure about what to do. I haven't gotten to test the Delver list (spent last Friday night cubing instead) but I want to post a general idea of the sort of control deck I'm looking for and the meta I'm looking to tackle, and see what you guys can come up with:

--- The Meta ---
-I always need to be prepared for random stuff, often involving artifacts or enchantments. I've played against Affinity, Imperial Painter, Enchantress, or random artifact-aggro decks numerous times
-There's always a good amount of Reanimator, Dredge, and Storm. I've seen Elves a few times, too.
-There's always some amount of Burn and UW StoneBlade
-The rest of the decks are mainly green decks of various incarnations, mainly Maverick and Zoo but occasionally Junk as well.

--- Personal Stuff/Playstyle ---
-The Legacy decks I've been most comfortable playing in the past are four-color CounterTop and New Horizons/Canadian Thresh (stifle tempo decks). I've never had success playing the latter in small local 'casual' tournaments, though I've done fine with them when taking them to good sized events (5-6 rounds).
-Outside of Legacy, I prefer to play blue-based control when I play Standard, but I'm not averse to playing midrange
-Card availability is not an issue.

sdematt
01-21-2012, 10:19 PM
Dystopia is super slow, though. It does slow them down, don't get me wrong, but while you're paying upkeep costs, they're beating with Knight. Plus, you can't keep it up forever.

-Matt

jandax
01-22-2012, 06:06 AM
Question: Why would one keep or board in Liliana vs Maverick? It seems through my own testing that Maverick dulls all Liliana's abilities (ie they can discard PF, they have Mom/NH/KotR out together)

TonyRo
01-25-2012, 01:52 PM
Nick Snagnolo just Top 8'd an SCG open with the following BUG list. Looks fairly sweet:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=43393

wcm8
01-25-2012, 01:57 PM
The best card against Maverick right now is Massacre.

For free, it kills:
Mother of Runes
Noble Heirarch
Scryb Ranger
Dryad Arbor
Aven Mindcensor
Quasali Pridemage
Scavenging Ooze (assuming it has not yet grown)

...which often results in a 2+-for-one blowout in your favor.

Then you just use your targeted removal to pick off the scragglers/bigger dudes.

Play 2-3 Massacre in your SB, possibly even 4 in a heavy Maverick meta, and you shouldn't have as much of a problem with this matchup aside from games where they can land an early Choke.

Massacre also isn't too shabby vs UW Blade decks.

JimmyC27
01-25-2012, 06:44 PM
Nick Snagnolo just Top 8'd an SCG open with the following BUG list. Looks fairly sweet:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=43393


Does anybody have thoughts on what the sideboarded 2x Tombstalker and 4x Dark Confidant come in against?

sdematt
01-25-2012, 08:26 PM
Deathmark was nuts for me all of yesterday.

-Matt

catmint
01-26-2012, 02:40 AM
Massacre looks sick versus maverick. However deed is much more powerful versus many decks where massacre is not/barely playable (Merfolk, Affinity, Entchantress, Dredge, Chalice Decks, Metalworker, Belcher, Counterbalance, Painted Stone, random stuff).

Also Deathmark does nothing versus the other tribals or random non green/white stuff.

Because I can beat Maverick already with my current configuration and i do not want to give away anything against the field, I prefer the traditional tools: deed/ghastly demise. If Maverick is too dominant in a meta, there is of course merit to fit some Massacre in. The first thing I would cut is Liliana though...In TA I would definitely prefer Massacre over deed!

Liliana is bad against Punishing Maverick obviously... but also against traditional maverick you have to be careful when to play her in order to get full value because of mindcensor & dryad arbor.

aznepyon7
01-27-2012, 04:09 PM
Liliana is bad against Punishing Maverick obviously... but also against traditional maverick you have to be careful when to play her in order to get full value because of mindcensor & dryad arbor.

Why would you consider Liliana as a bad play against traditional Maverick? At worst, it's a chainer's edict + 1 less creature dealing damage to you for one turn. Not great, but not bad.

I'm sure you can get plenty of mileage from her if you play her correctly.

catmint
01-27-2012, 06:38 PM
I don't consider her bad against non punishing maverick.. just saying you have to be careful how to play her, so you do not endup paying 1BB (1 turn) to have an edict effect and mostly irrelevant damage prevention.

But also deed is not a "straight forward play". Good Maverick players will not run all their dudes blindly into a deed without having pridemage/krosan grip backup. That brings some very favourable situations for liliana.

kiwi
01-28-2012, 04:27 AM
From my point of view the best sideboard card against maverick that we can play in this deck is Virtue's Ruin

Massacre some times isn't very good, because if they play a Gaddock Teeg and we have a Massacre it will be a death card in our hand moreover Massacre usually doesn't kill Knight of the reliquary, on other hand is easier to play Virtue's Ruin with Snapcaster Mage

catmint
01-28-2012, 07:24 AM
I dont think Virtues Ruin is an option. Its not better than Perish.
IMO these narrow cards do not deserve a slot, because there are many other decks out there and deed is good against a lot....

JimmyC27
01-31-2012, 11:02 AM
This list popped up on TC Decks, taking 8th at an 84 person tournament. The Scavenging Ooze over the 4th Tarmogoyf is interesting. Tarmogoyf seems to be a nice "Moat" and Ooze may not be big enough off the bat to get the same Moat effect. Ooze would help with the GY hate though. Is this good enough to make the switch?



Creatures [8]
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster Mage

Instants [14]
2 Dismember
2 Ghastly Demise
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm

Sorceries [7]
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

Enchantments [2]
2 Pernicious Deed

Planeswalkers [6]
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil

Lands [23]
1 Riptide Laboratory
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
3 Bayou
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard [15]
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Spell Pierce
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Force of Will
2 Extirpate
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Nature's Claim

Einherjer
02-01-2012, 12:57 AM
Hey, im a passionate Legacyplayer and yesterday I invested into the whole (90%) BUG pool. My first impression was Ill play TeamAmerica, which I tested on Cockatrice and yeah its a nice deck - but it has a few problems versus Maverick, so I thought Deed would be a nice option, on the other hand its a lil weaker versus Combo as far as Im concerned. So yeah, I ended up with the following list:

3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
//22 Lands

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
//7 Creatures

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
//9 Counterspells

4 Brainstorm
//4 Cantrips

3 Ghastly Demise
1 Go for the Throat
//4 Removal

3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Hymn to Tourach
//7 Discard

3 Pernicious Deed
//3 Sweeper

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
//4 Planeswalker


So please remember im new to this archetype and give ma any criticism - im appreciate every single idea and answer I get.

Thank you very much.

catmint
02-01-2012, 03:25 AM
@Jimmy.
I never played with ooze, but there are surely a lot of situations where you want him.
Having no GSZ makes the 1 of not that attractive...As you said the goyfs are there to block or to beat down and there is nothing else doing it that effecient...I'll test 1 ooze and see how it does...

Welcome Phillip!
What comes to my mind when i see your list:

22 lands is on the low side. You really want to make all your land drops for snapcaster and jace without wasting your brainstorms to find them. Also we have to play through wastelands... I've got a lof of value playing sunken ruins and creeping tar pit as my lands #23 and #24.

Speaking of jace and snapcaster... they are the lategame backbone... so without using a confidant plan I would play more of both. Usually people play 4 snapcaster, 3 Jace...

If I would cut a creature it is Goyf (i put 1 in the board in my current configuration), since he functions as a beatdwon card, which is usually needed later on (early on only in specific matches like combo, dredge, burn,...). Especially if you run 3 deed which is antisynergistic with an early goyf... Another option is to put 1 FoW into the SB since we have a lot of discard and spell snare (sometimes pierce) maindeck.

I prefer the full 8 discard spells, since it plays a big role in my "early game surviving" plan and is backbreaking with snapcaster...

Counterspell is not a good option since it is significantly harder to cast, to brainstorm for it, and to use with snapcaster mage. Typical plays that I love on the draw is to wait until turn 2 with my thoughtseize/inquisition so i have always spell snare or pierce up (I play 1 pierce maindeck and 2 in the SB). Also, counterspell is not really necessary since you have a lot of "hand-" and board control besides the conditional counterspells....

Einherjer
02-01-2012, 04:21 AM
How would a Bob-List look like? Im pretty unexperienced yet as told :(

Greetings

catmint
02-01-2012, 07:14 AM
I think the best is if you look at some of the last pages...
The topic of playing Bob has been brought up on page 3 and was then discussed intensively.

sdematt
02-01-2012, 12:13 PM
I was wondering, what about playing more Oozes? I don't play the deck often, but you're running all non-RFG removal (Innocent Blood, Demise, Deathmark, Edict, Damnation, Deed, etc.), so why not suck up all the dead creatures?

I was going to say something else, but I totally forgot.

-Matt

Einherjer
02-01-2012, 03:06 PM
Ok i built my own BUG Control-Deck and was toying around with it on Cockatrice, the list is:

23 lands (1 Sunken Ruins, 4 Wastelands)

4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
3 Ghastly Demise
1 Go for the Throat
1 Diabolic Edict

1 Pernicious Deed
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition

Sideboard:
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Extirpate
3 Surgical Extracion
2 Krosan Grip
2 Duress
4 Perish


And it is a good deck - no doubt - but how the hell do you beat UR Delver or Burn?^^

JimmyC27
02-01-2012, 03:07 PM
In thinking about Ooze a little more, if you run multiple copies of him this will in some way effect the manabase, as you'll need more green sources. Does the deck really want to stretch for a 3rd non-splash color?

catmint
02-03-2012, 09:58 AM
The green factor of Ooze is true! However 1-2 times per turn should be fine to gain value or hate on snapcaster, dredge, reanimator, Goyf, Knight,..

Not beeing able to tutor ooze or have a super effecient wall/attacker when needed is more of a concern for me.

Interesting Approach Jimmy. Cutting Discard/countermagic for a proactive "confidant proactive" gameplan sounds reasonable.

My questions concerning sideboad?
Why do you run Krosan Grip when having deed? Meta choice?
4 Perish seems a lot to run along deed..

What I am missing in the SB (considering your MD) is what is essential to win versus Burn decks (spell pierce, spell snare & hymn to tourach) ... along an early goyf to end the game quickly of course.

sdematt
02-03-2012, 12:10 PM
Deed doesn't kill Batterskull, Grip does.

I agree 4 Perish seems super hateful, Jimmy. I'd say 2-3 is enough, especially if you're running Snappy.

-Matt

Einherjer
02-03-2012, 12:37 PM
Jimmy? You comment on my decklist - no Jimmies^^

Krosan Grip is just a more flexible Deed in order to deal with more artefacts, 4 perish seem to be needed with this Maverick-Madness going on.

Ive been playing this list on cockatrice ALOT the last few days and I had an medicore experience.

I was winning versus Bant, Rock, Deadguy, Stoneblade
I was winning mostly versus Maverick and RUG Tempo, Goblins, Zoo
I was hardly winning versus Show and Tell Decks (mostly due to BAD draws)
I was never able to steal a match versus UR Burn or MonoR Burn

So yeah, Im pretty open to all of your advices and stuff. So please, is Confidant the wrong way? As my freshly bought pool is pretty big, as my budget is, you can propose all kinds of changes to it. Only thing I would like to play is Goyf and Jace and maybe Snapcaster.

All the other Aggro-Control Decks are just swept out by the enourmos card-advantage of this deck, the Aggro-Decks are just getting smashed by 5 Removal into 4 Snapcaster paired with Goyfs, but Im never fast enough with Goyf to slash a Burnmage, are your MUs better?

Even though Confidant is a great card Im not too sure if its the right card - I mean all of you guys are achieving great results I heard and Im just playing fine... I dont think its due to me, cause im a decent player normally.

So is the way to go Deedstill? Or Team America? Has there been any recent succesful list?

Thanks

Koby
02-03-2012, 01:25 PM
I think a combination of Virtue's Ruin and Perish are warranted. The White creature are now as much annoying as the Green creatures. Being able to kill Mom, SFM, Knights, Pridemage, and the possible Mindcensor seems much better than killing the support staff (OoZe, Hierarch, Goyf).

Thrun is the special case however.

Anusien
02-03-2012, 05:15 PM
Knight of the Reliquary and Qasali Pridemage are great incentives to run Virture's Ruin instead of Perish!

Koby
02-03-2012, 07:27 PM
This might be more cute than good:

Intuition piles:

1)
Academy Ruins
Life from the Loam
EE

2)
Snapcaster Mage
Unearth
<Instant/Sorcery>

Einherjer
02-04-2012, 05:10 AM
EE doesnt seem bad, but we´d need a fourth color (!) in order to get rid of damn permanents, BUG Control is hardly able to kill things like Jace and Elspeth.

We could play Malestrom Pulse in order to smash this planeswalkers, but EE doesnt seem bad either. What looks bad is the 4th color which might be hardly manageable. You dont really need EE when having Deed, and there are rarely planeswalker <cc4. The only relevant one I can think of is Liliana so I dont know.

Im still not sure about Confidant, its such a great CA machine, which often catches the swords instead of our mr. Tarmogoyf. I think Ill just have to test more than I did.

useL
02-04-2012, 11:24 AM
2)
Snapcaster Mage
Unearth
Snapcaster Mage

Fixed it for ya

sdematt
02-04-2012, 06:34 PM
The main difference in what you're hitting with Perish vs. Virtue's Ruin is Mother of Runes + Mindcensor vs. Noble Hierarch + Thrun. One is taking out mana development and Thrun, the other is manipulation and protection. Also works if you're running mostly green stuff yourself.

-Matt

Mark Sun
02-04-2012, 08:08 PM
I think a combination of Virtue's Ruin and Perish are warranted. The White creature are now as much annoying as the Green creatures. Being able to kill Mom, SFM, Knights, Pridemage, and the possible Mindcensor seems much better than killing the support staff (OoZe, Hierarch, Goyf).

Thrun is the special case however.

I agree here. People are going to push a little towards white, which is already the (more) threatening part of Maverick, but especially because they want to try out Thalia. I'm thinking about playing BUG next weekend, but I want to see what happens tomorrow first.

Einherjer
02-05-2012, 03:35 AM
Tomorrow? Whats tomorrow? (sorry if I missed anything)

What list would you take?
Tempo?
ConfidantBUG?
DeedBUG?
Or something different?

I finally found a Confidant-list that brought me some decent results on Cockatrice, but I got another question.

Why is no1 here playing any SylvanLibrary or DiviningTops?
Wouldnt they be good? Especially with Bob.

Greetings

EDIT:Okay heres the list I got lucky with :

21 Lands

4 Goyf
4 Snappy
4 Bob

4 Force
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
3 Ghastly Demise
1 Go for the Throat

4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Unearth

3 Jace

//SIDE

2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Extirpate
1 Krosan Grip
1 Nature's Grip
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Life from the Loam
2 Virtue's Ruin

What do you guys think?

EDIT2: Even with this list I tend to lose... Im getting pissed already - Is Confidant too bad?

rancOr_
02-05-2012, 05:49 PM
I still think the best list for TA(control version) is with 4goyf 4snap 24 land. Its the most consistent and u get to play like 3Jace and a liliana. Backed up with removal/discard/counters its really solid against most decks except Imperial Painter/burn.

catmint
02-06-2012, 05:45 AM
EDIT2: Even with this list I tend to lose... Im getting pissed already - Is Confidant too bad?

It is always difficult to take a new list or a list someone else was successful and expect to have an edge over the field... If that would be possible a deck would break a format...

When you have a deck you need to know exactly what your gameplan is and what the optimal decision is in a given situation. Trust me it does make a big difference if you have a lot of experience or not. (i.e. I feel I have an edge over the random goblins I face, but I have a buddy playing goblins since 5 years and he has a small edge over me).

So looking at your list your primary gameplan is Confidant. You try to land a Confidant as early as possible and defend him with Daze, Spell Pierce and Force of Will. If that works you will likely win. The problem is that this gameplan is fragile:

- If you do not draw a confidant you are in bad shape to implement the alternative "traditional BUG" gameplan, because you do not run enough lands for your curve, Daze is antisynergetic with Snapcaster/Jace and you are lacking the early game interaction of Pointed Discard and Spell Snare to disrupt the opponent until you can take over.

-Even if you do draw confidant the gamplan is easy to discrupt. There is so much removal, spell snare and discard in legacy that your decend 2 land hand + confidant can become pretty terrible. Concerning the defense of your confidant, Spell Pierce needs a mana open, so is probably not the optimal choice to, so you are left with Daze and Force of Will which are good options because you need to tap out with confidant. Other confidant lists I saw run Inquisition to protect confidant, which is a very good turn 1 play (btw... you do not have a turn 1 play).

Another easy way to disrupt your gameplan is to have a wasteland...

So the first things I would change sticking to the confidant plan is:
- Replace spell pierce with Snare (pierce is not good defending confidant and snare much stronger overall)

- Replace 4 hymn with 4 pointed discard. -> you try to win by being ahead on board + cards (always drawing into answers with confidant while starting to develop your snapcaster/Jace) -> hymn does not support that plan in an optimal way.
..also gives you a nicec curce since hands with hymns, confidants, goyfs can be really slow.

- Decrease the number "late game bombs" with more consitency in the form of lands and/or ponder: your late game bombs are 3 jace, 4 snapcster and 2 unearth... Unearth is the nuts versus Bolt decks but weak to swords decks... Many people run only 2 jace because it is not synergistic with daze and hurts the confidant curve.

Also the goyfs will very often sit in your hand for a while...

Since this is all "fragile" and complicated to me I totally agree to rancor

I still think the best list for TA(control version) is with 4goyf 4snap 24 land. Its the most consistent and u get to play like 3Jace and a liliana. Backed up with removal/discard/counters its really solid against most decks except Imperial Painter/burn.

Imperial Painter is favorable for us I think. Treat it like any other combo deck except for it can be disrupted with creature removal as well... needs 4 extirpate effects and an early goyf to get the beats going...They side in ugly Blood Moons, but loose speed.


Concerning Top and Sylvan Library:

1 random SD.top seems ok (never tried it TBH), however it is very manaintensive and most BUG lists are discard based, which means often tapping out earyl. Having 8 Discard spells and 4 Snapcaster (as mana people do), you are pretty busy in your early turns doing that.

Sylvan Library is obviously the nuts. However so far I havent been able to fit it in, because I need the slots MD/SB versus bad matchups, which are usually the matchups where Library is horrible!

1) If BUG control needs to achieve something it is not falling behind. Discard, Snare, Removal seems to be more important in the early turns and wasting a turn to setup library hurts in many matchups.

2)you can often not easily trade life for cards like an aggressive deck can...

3)it is antisynergistic with deed (which I run 2 maindeck atm)

Maybe 1-2 in the sideboard to bring something versus UW is not a bad idea.

Iron Buddha
02-06-2012, 06:52 AM
I personally believe the control variant (the one that runs 24 lands and no Hymn, no Daze) is better than the aggro-control variant (probably a low cc version with Dark Confidant?),..), because control is intrinsically stronger and the only thing that keeps control in check is that it's too slow, which is certainly not the case anymore with SCM.

// 24
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bayou

// 4
4 Brainstorm

// 18
4 Ghastly Demise
2 Smother
1 Go for the Throat
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare

// 14
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Jace the Mind Sculptor
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Life from the Loam
1 Fact or Fiction


With 24 lands, 4 JTMS > 4 SCM, the same applies to Tarmogoyf.

I prefer FoF to Intuition in that single slot, but it actually doesn't matter. With Intuition you probably want to change -1 Mishra's Factory, +1 Academy Ruins. However, that slot should definitely be filled with a CA-source.

1x LftL is an auto-include.

catmint
02-06-2012, 09:18 AM
The disadvantage going your route iron buddha is that you loose a lot against the decks where discard/hymn (& goyf) are really strong.

Control being intrinsically stronger is an interesting claim which is not true I think. IMO it is the strength of blue decks unning SFM or Goyf to be flexible in what they are doing - (i.e.: also beeing a bit aggro).

Anyway what you see as control is BOARD control + counterspells. Black discard is also "control", but much stronger versus opposing combo or control while still beeing decent versus aggro. Whereas removal is dead versus combo and often bad versus control.

Iron Buddha
02-06-2012, 12:44 PM
Classic creatureless control is not very popular right now. The most controllish decks are those with SFM, SCM, Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, Clique: That means that board control is quite important in the control matchup. Removal is not as bad in the control-matchup as it used to be.

In regards to fighting control/combo I don't quite see a difference between blue counterspells and black discard.

The problem with Thoughtseize is the life-loss. While this is mostly irrelevant for combo / aggro decks, it's an extreme disadvantage for the control-player.

The third or even the fourth Spell Snare can easily come in to strengthen the control/combo matchup.

What's the benefit of being a bit aggro?

The reason why I think control is naturally favored, is because control automatically makes use of the resource life.

JimmyC27
02-06-2012, 01:53 PM
I still think the best list for TA(control version) is with 4goyf 4snap 24 land. Its the most consistent and u get to play like 3Jace and a liliana. Backed up with removal/discard/counters its really solid against most decks except Imperial Painter/burn.

Yo,

I definitely agree with this statement. I've been able to improve my Imperial and my Burn match up by switching up some non-basics for basic lands. Imperial seemed entirely unwinnable to me, based largely on their 6-7 Blood Moon effects that can easily come down on turn 1 or 2. I generally do well against burn decks, but the basic lands have also worked to nerf Price to Progress. The basic lands have also improved my match up for people who side in Back to Basics/Choke or some sort of Wasteland lock using Crucible or Loam.

My maindeck 23 land base is:

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Wasteland

I added the 1 Forest recently so I'd have access to Pernicious Deed, Tarmogoyf, and Nature's Claim. This still gives you adequate sources for every color:

17 Black
16 Blue
13 Green

Einherjer
02-06-2012, 01:59 PM
Thank you for all this input!
I finally dropped Dark Confidant after seeing that hes medicore in this deck, and I switched something new, or more old, the classic BUG Control, or what I think of what this is. First the list:

22 Lands including 4 Waste 1 Riptide 0 Basics

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster Mage

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell

3 Ghastly Demise
1 Go for the Throat

2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize

3 Pernicious Deed

4 Brainstorm

1 Unearth
1 Life from the Loam

Sideboard:

1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Unearth
1 Life from the Loam
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Virtue's Ruin
1 Krosan's Grip
1 Nature' Claim
2 Duress


So yeah its a pretty basic BUG Control-List with 3 Deeds mainboard. In my 75 I play 2 Unearth and 2 Life from the Loam - both very very strong cards - each in a 1-1 split between each other and the sideboard - to adjust it the best way to the MUs.
3 Jaces seemed enough, and the Liliana is gold sometimes. The rest is pretty normal I think.

I had some great results on Cockatrice already (9-2) and the first cards are arriving irl :)
So yeah, what do you guys think? Looks like a solid list doesnt it? Time to get used to this deck!

Greetings

JimmyC27
02-06-2012, 09:28 PM
@Phillip

My first thought is to cut the 4th Wasteland, the 4th FOW, or the 1 Counterspell for another mana producing land. With control decks, you don't really want to keep hands with less than 2 lands, and you want to hit every land drop you can (which is a reason to suggest 23 lands instead 22). That just might be my personal preference though.

Einherjer
02-07-2012, 01:10 AM
23 lands may be good yes, especially with Life from the Loam. But should I add Basics? One of the Sources who posted his list shortly before was playing 3 Basics... Sweet? I mean this wont win you the Burn-MU and you certainly CANT play off Swamp+Island+Forest - you can hardly play anything the correct way. So youll fetch for Duals in any way, making yourself vulernable to Wasteland once again and only reducing the damage taken from Price of Progress. If you ask me, playing that few Basics isnt really useful - the only argument that might be valid is sitting on 3 Bascis, the enemy has the Crucible+Wastelock and you wait for your out, Natures Claim or Grip. But this will take you quite a while. So the only Basic I would add would be 1 Island, even though Id prefer a Dual/Fetchland here aswell. Or some Creeping Tar Pit.

What do you guys think? 100% Nonbasic Manabase or 95%?

Greetings

catmint
02-07-2012, 03:11 AM
Basics hurt the deck a lot.
You have to go for duals anyway and if they have a wasteland they will waste the first dual you fetch anyway...
Also as Philip said starting with basics does not work... besides the obvious hymn to touarch there are many other situations.... i.e.: you start with swamp for thoughtseize... then you have another fetch, a brainstorm and a spell snare... youcannot counter his spell without cracking the fetch for an island loosing your shuffle effect...

or what if you do not have the spell snare but NEED to counter his spell. If you fetch was underground sea instead for swamp.. you can brainstorm still having the shuffle effect and play snare if you find it...

__________

Concerning your current build now Philip.
I agree a little more colored mana would be better. Unearth without confidant is not strong enough!

4 Goyf and 3 deed are a little antisynergistic (you either dont want to play goyf because you are going to blow up the world or you dont want to blow up the world because there are goyf ins play...);I play currently 3 goyf, 2 deed maindeck.


Classic creatureless control is not very popular right now. The most controllish decks are those with SFM, SCM, Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, Clique: That means that board control is quite important in the control matchup. Removal is not as bad in the control-matchup as it used to be.

In regards to fighting control/combo I don't quite see a difference between blue counterspells and black discard.

The problem with Thoughtseize is the life-loss. While this is mostly irrelevant for combo / aggro decks, it's an extreme disadvantage for the control-player.

The third or even the fourth Spell Snare can easily come in to strengthen the control/combo matchup.

What's the benefit of being a bit aggro?

The reason why I think control is naturally favored, is because control automatically makes use of the resource life.

Just relying on counterspells versus combo is not enough. Discard and a fast glock help against almost any combo matchup. The lifeloss of thoughtseize hurts, but the idea is that you trade with a card that hurts you a lot more. Many people including me also play a 2/2 split with inquisition because of that reason.

You are right that removal/deed has applications versus sonteblade control builds, but you can't deny it hurts them much more if you inquision/hymn them as oppose to deed them

Another matchup that we unfortunately might have to face more often is burn. The only way i see me winning against burn is a hand with Goyf/Hymn and some counterspells. Just having counterspells and removal but giving them a lot of time to draw to 20 damage has much less of a chance.

Einherjer
02-07-2012, 09:56 AM
Ill add one more land.

But concerning the play Goyf+Deed: I think its not too bad when playing both of them - because sometimes a Goyf is win cause you need a fast clock or a blocker and you simply dont have Deed. In other Situations you can just deed and play the Goyf later on - so I dont see the problem here.

I was thinking about playing something that would remove an Elspeth or an Jace. We have 2 options as far as I know. a) add a Volcanic or something in order to cast Explosives at 4 (hard to accompliesh though) or we play some Malestrom Pulse, which would be fine to be honest.

Even though Unearth might not seem to be that hot without Dark Confidant it actually is. I play the MB-SB 1-1 split because its pretty bad against W/x decks with their damn exiling. But having more Goyfs is always good. Ill keep it in 1-1.

Life from the Loam (in 1-1 split aswell) was the nuts everytime I drew it. Once it worked as CA in symbiosis with Liliana the other time it provided me with the right amount of Wastelands to push my opponent out of the game.

There is another card a friend brought me to think about. Its Eternal Witness. Dont we wish to bring back Deed or Jace sometimes? What do you think about this one? Casting GG isnt too hard for me as I dont play any basics (only girlies do so^^), and it could mean some critical advantage - even though it is a little slow indeed.

Thanks for your good advice. Greetings

JimmyC27
02-07-2012, 10:53 AM
Have either of you actually tested a basic list, or are you just making theoretical assumptions? :)

I run 3 basics, and it works just fine. I've played the deck for 4-5 months.

Einherjer
02-07-2012, 11:21 AM
Sorry for the sidekick.

No I did not test it - but how do you cast Hymn and Goyf and Liliana and Jace and and and at the same time of basics. What if your Lands in hand are Waste, Fetch and Forest and your spells are Lilly and Hymn? Good fight or what? I hardly see an advantage in playing 3 bascis. this wont save you from getting Priced of progress - honestly.

So any thoughts on Witness?

JimmyC27
02-07-2012, 11:51 AM
Waste - Fetch - Forest - Liliana - Hymn - x - y

What are X and Y? What are you playing against?

Einherjer
02-07-2012, 12:09 PM
Self invented scenarios help nobody. This was only meant to clarify that it is NOT possible to use the maximum of the spells when playing Basics - or even fetching for basics. But I do not want our argument to take place in this thread - so lets stop it and lets do it in PM if you want.

Greetings and sorry for the "spam".

JimmyC27
02-07-2012, 12:25 PM
Didn't you self-invent that scenario? I think you have to consider the full hand and what deck you're playing against whenever deciding to keep/mulligan. You'll have that exact 5 you conjured up less than 0.xxx% of the time--of which one other card may make that hand keepable, pending your opponent's deck choice. I don't understand your untested fear of a basic land. You're only going to have 1 Forest in your opening hand roughly 10% of the time. If this 1 Forest were suddenly your 4th Wasteland, would it make any difference on you keeping the hand?

Additionally, playing the 1 Forest comes down to how much you have silver bullets like Blood Moon in your metagame. I think 1 Swamp and 1 Island are definitely correct, but the 1 Forest comes from needing outs to strong nonbasic hate that I frequently see.

This individual seems to perform quite well using 1 Swamp, 1 Island:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/busqueda.php?nombre=Ignasi%20Villagrasa

Finally, this isn't an argument. We're just discussing mechanics of the deck. That's what you do on the thread. If you disagree with the use of basics in this deck, tell us why--based on what you've tested, hopefully.

sumbahdy
02-07-2012, 11:15 PM
Regarding the basics, have tried running all 3 right now (B,U,G) but am not really sold on the Forest. I think it would be better if it was another dual land. Running basics doesn't mean that would be the 1st thing you'd fetch in every match-up. There will be scenarios that basics would help and sometimes you'll get screwed because of them. The basic lists hardly uses Green mana (with the rise of MD deeds I think this would merit inclusion) but with only Goyf (now I see them as 2-3 MD) and possibly 3 deeds, wouldn't Bayou or Trops be more practical?

@JimmyC27
Did you post your most recent decklist?

Here's what I am testing:
4 Force of Will
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace TMS
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Go For The Throat
1 Life From The Loam
4 Thoughtseize
3 Spell Snare
2 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
1 Raven's Crime
24 lands (3 basics w/o Riptide Lab - Never was a fan)

Raven's Crime - This was supposedly the slot for Creeping Tarpit as the 25th land or Pulse as a catch all option. It is nuts with Loam once it goes online and would complement Liliana's discard ability also. Certainly good for control match-ups but I think will suck against aggro.

Only 3 Targeted removal - Between the 3 deeds and 2 Liliana and sometimes Jace, creatures are hardly a problem.The only thing that I am concerned about are opposing Walkers that cannot be hit by deed.

I am torn on using this list rather than the 4 Snaps + 4 Goyf build that also uses Deeds MD. I strongly believe it is anti synergistic as you will blow-up everything eventually and have no way of getting back the crits. The old one w/o deeds and Liliana I will be testing next.

@Philipp802
I won't recommend adding a 4th color just to make explosives playable. The manabase itself is already fragile that adding more duals will make you more prone to hate. Go with Pulse instead as it can hit almost any permanent especiallt Walkers.

JimmyC27
02-07-2012, 11:48 PM
@sumbahdy

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island
3 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster Mage

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

3 Ghastly Demise
1 Go for the Throat
2 Pernicious Deed

3 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder

1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

Sideboard:

2 Pernicious Deed
2 Nature's Claim
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Spell Pierce
1 Force of Will
1 Ghastly Demise
2 Diabolic Edict


My list on modo is a little different
-1 Tarmogoyf, +1 Inquisition of Kozilek maindeck
-1 Pernicious Deed, +1 Nature's Claim sideboard

However slight, these differences haven't really been noticeable.

sumbahdy
02-07-2012, 11:57 PM
@JimmyC27
Thanks for the list. Did the 4th Force got replaced with 7th Discard spell? I know if Aggro match-ups (Maverick to be exact) you will take out all the FOW in place of other removal but using 3 FOW MD will it matter? Also, how impressive has Creeping Tarpit been for you?

JimmyC27
02-08-2012, 01:04 AM
@sumbahdy

I cut the 4th FOW for a number of reasons. Ultimately, I was trying to make room for Pernicious Deed--I wanted a board sweeper to improve match ups like Maverick and Goblins (meta decision). I also have a love-hate relationship with FOW. I like preventing my opponent from dropping major cards; I hate hymning myself to do it. My blue count isn't terribly high (18), so cutting one FOW seemed okay. I also saw some other BUG lists popping up on the internet having success with only 3 FOW.

Against Maverick, I normally go something like -2 Liliana, -1 Jace, +2 Deed, +1 Ghastly Demise. I tend to leave FOW in to keep Choke off the board. I could see an argument going either way though, since I have Nature's Claims in the board I could bring in over FOW.

Creeping Tar Pit has been pretty good or at least I'm a fan. Essentially, he's an unblockable Underground Sea. There have been a couple of times where its unblockable effect has allowed me to get lethal through. He can also block stuff to protect Jace--since you're somewhat short on blockers. His downfalls would probably be that on his own though he's not enough to get you there. Sometimes he eats Wasteland or removal, but I think that's to be expected. Overall, he adds an extra body to your deck and that seems to give you a little more flexibility throughout the game. I think 1 seems about right.

catmint
02-08-2012, 05:53 AM
my 2c to the basics discussion:
I think it hurts much more on a regular basis than giving value in some specific rare occasions.

Against Maverick Liliana is decent (except if its punishing maverick)
FoW has to come out IMO. Choke is a pain, but just for that it is too narrow and I still play 4 discard and 3 Spell Pierce to protect myself.

Spell Pierce is very good against Maverick!
Hymn is decend but cutable.
Darkblast is nuts!
I do not play with more than 2 goyf in a "4 deed matchup"

The 1 Creeping tar pit is very good! Good against plainswalkers and a decent colored mana wincondition that you can "loam" for.

sumbahdy
02-08-2012, 09:57 AM
How about the mana base? With tarpit and wastes should you be running 23 lands? I run 2 basics and 24 in a deck with lftl. At 1st I tried 25 but tended to be flooded most of the time. I think 24 is ideal to keep getting consistent land drops and land the double mana requirement of your bombs.

JimmyC27
02-08-2012, 12:41 PM
@catmint

I have really liked having the 1 Swamp and 1 Island. You can fetch for these early and still hit your normal mana requirements of BB, UU, or BG later. If I was seeing more UW Stoneblade or RUG Tempo, and less Choke/Back to Basics, I would most likely cut the 1 Forest for another dual or fetchland. However, I have not run into problems where using 3 basics hoses me for these requirements either.

@sumbahdy

23 lands seems find to me--4 Brainstorm and 1 Ponder also help fix mana. Just don't keep any 1 land hands.

JimmyC27
02-08-2012, 12:49 PM
@catmint

How would you sideboard with my list for Maverick and UW Stoneblade?

catmint
02-08-2012, 06:10 PM
i'll probably give the basics some test run and keep count of good/bad situations.

Jimmy:
my sb plan with your list:

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island
3 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster Mage

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

3 Ghastly Demise
1 Go for the Throat
2 Pernicious Deed

3 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder

1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

Sideboard:
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Nature's Claim
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Spell Pierce
1 Force of Will
1 Ghastly Demise
2 Diabolic Edict

______________

vs GW Maverick
-3 FoW
-3 Spell Snare
-3 Tarmogoyf (...you have clique)
-1 Hymn to Tourach

+ 1 ghastly demise
+ 2 Spell Pierce
+ 2 Edict
+ 2 deed
+ 1 Natures claim (more answers to sylvan libary, choke or equipment)
+ 2 Vendilion Clique

_______________

vs GWR Maverick
-3 FoW
-3 Spell Snare
-2 Tarmogoyf
-1 Hymn to Tourach
-1 Liliana of the Veil

+ 1 ghastly demise
+ 2 Spell Pierce
+ 2 Edict
+ 2 deed
+ 1 Natures claim
+ 2 surgical extraction

..not sure if Liliana or hymn is better in the GWR matchup but spell snare is always too narrow

________________

versus UW Stoneblade i guess something like this:

- 3 Tarmogoyf
- 2 Liliana
- 1 Go for the Throat
- 1 Deed

+ 2 Spell Pierce
+ 2 Vendilion Clique
+ 1 Natures Claim
+ 2 surgical extraction

Einherjer
02-09-2012, 01:00 AM
I cant understand why you board out Lilianas out in this MUs.

When playing UW a Liliana single handed pwns a Stoneforge - either by discarding their equip(later) or just letting them sacrifice their only creature. Kind of same for Maverick - want Maverick to lose creatures? Sure. Why board out Liliana? At worst shes a 1BB Edict - at best shes a game winning planeswalker - when dropped onto an empty board after a deedbooby.

So, anyone has some thoughts about Witness? She really seems very powerful for the lategame - because buying back any of your wasted cards(!) is powerful - no doubt. And the 1GG isnt too hard for me - as I play 1 Bayou and 3 Tropicals...

Greetings and have a good day.

catmint
02-09-2012, 10:03 AM
I think Liliana is not that strong versus UW because the creatures they play are little "2 for 1 dudes" like Stoneforge, Spellstutter, Snapcaster where it is often a way to fall behind if you waste a turn+edict effect playing liliana. They already got value from stoneforge, spellstutter, snapcaster when you edict them which will pay off in the long term for them. Since UW plays many creatures & equipments I started playing 1-2 deed versus them. Taking hits from small creatures until I wipe the board instead of wasting cards on removal spells.

Also Snapcaster/Vendilion clique make up ~6-7 flash creatures in their deck which are very good "liliana killers".
She is still not garbage versus UW, but there are better options IMO.

Versus GW Maverick Liliana is good, but if they have 1 creature + 1 fetch (for dryad arbor) it is also hard to get the full value of "owning the game". Mindcensor is a factor but not a deciding one...

Versus Punishing Maverick Liilana is much weaker and not worth the slot I think. I rather play Surgical extraction to make sure they can't grind out my Jace.

Concerning witness:
a powerful card that could be tested/played as a 1 off instead of Goyf. But I feel the same as for ooze. Without green sun's zenit you do not get the full strength out of these slots, so I would rather play my "rock solid efficient stupid beater/wall".

JimmyC27
02-09-2012, 02:53 PM
@catmint

Why do you side out Tarmogoyfs in the UW match? Because of Sword of Feast and Famine?

Also, I think your assessment there about Liliana is pretty accurate.

Einherjer
02-09-2012, 03:02 PM
Another afternoon of winning with BUG Control has gone to an end. I hardly lost to anything if not because of my misplays.
BUT
I didnt even win a single game versus Burn/UR Burn - the best that was possible was 1-2... So better ignore this MU or just board some goddamn Chills? Am I just lacking up experience? Dont think so as this MU really seems that hard - and its not only Price of Progress that is ripping my ass off:(

Ye im pretty curious about the boarding of Goyfs in Stoneblade aswell.

Greetings

sdematt
02-09-2012, 03:08 PM
I was recently brewing this:

1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Cabal Pit
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
24

3 Jace the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
5

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
2 Intuition
15

2 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Snapcaster Mage
5

1 Virtue's Ruin
3 Ghastly Demise
1 Smother
1 Damnation
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Life from the Loam
1 Worm Harvest
11

Use Intuition to grab Loam/Worm Harvest, or dump something you need into the bin for Snapcaster. Thrun goes all the way when you constantly clear the board, and they can't remove it (plus, you can Deed the board and he survives).

I know it's not what everyone's doing at the moment, but thoughts? Sideboard would probably include Spell Pierces, another sweeper, grave-hate, hand disruption, etc.

Thoughts?

-Matt

The Treefolk Master
02-09-2012, 04:48 PM
I was recently brewing this:

1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Cabal Pit
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
24

3 Jace the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
5

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
2 Intuition
15

2 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Snapcaster Mage
5

1 Virtue's Ruin
3 Ghastly Demise
1 Smother
1 Damnation
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Life from the Loam
1 Worm Harvest
11

Use Intuition to grab Loam/Worm Harvest, or dump something you need into the bin for Snapcaster. Thrun goes all the way when you constantly clear the board, and they can't remove it (plus, you can Deed the board and he survives).

I know it's not what everyone's doing at the moment, but thoughts? Sideboard would probably include Spell Pierces, another sweeper, grave-hate, hand disruption, etc.

Thoughts?

-Matt

No love for Raven's Crime? Shriekmaw?

Koby
02-09-2012, 05:25 PM
I think EE and Academy Ruins would both be very good additions. EE really reams Maverick and most Tempo builds right now. Having the recursion also helps to reload in the mid-game, and opens up Nihil Spellbomb as a recurring removal.

sdematt
02-09-2012, 05:35 PM
Interesting thoughts. I'm definitely running EE in the board, so I could easily add Ruins in the main.

-Matt

catmint
02-09-2012, 06:18 PM
The reason why Tarmogoyfs go out in the UW matchup is that the matchup can hardly every won by dropping a goyf and riding it too victory. It is more like trade/discard,... too oblivion and you hopefully have just 1 snapcaster + brainstorm, Jace, Goyf more and hope the opponent does not topdeck much better than you. 4 Goyfs are not useful to implement this gameplan. Some people even side out all 4 goyfs versus UW. The sword is not the reason though because if the equip a creature chances are low anyway...

Looking at your list jimmy I reconsider Vendilion clique because she is a better card in the matchup overall (-> Elspeth, Jace) + is a decent wincon + also a removal spell for opposing cliques.

_____________________

Concerning your take on BUG sdmatt.
I find it very interseting altough it goes quite in a different direction. (It would fit more the mind harvester thread, but I like to discuss it here as well)

Basically Intution/Loam engine & more counterspells instead of Discard.

It allows to run a totally different manabase and not tapping out for discard is of course a different gameplan which enables counterspell.

My thoughts:

Is there enough protection for the early game?
I would like to make a comparison to UW because it is the best "not discard" based control deck. If you look at UW Blade: Early they play counter/removal. Since they have SFM, Espeth to build up a better board position they get away with less removal, but in general I think your list has too much removal and not enough counterspells.

Not having SFM (which is equal to a fast wincondition + a way to turnaround life totals), the deck has to have more to through against threats and a better grinding game.


Concerning the wincondition

UW has Jace, Elspeth, SFM and Clique
your list has Jace, Thrun, Intuition (Stronghold/Thrun, Jace, Loam/Harvest,...)

Now your wincon is more versatile and harder to get rid off, but it is more expensive a and slower (or it is much easier to get straight value out of the UW package... I really envy their lifelink! :)

The comparison between Batterskull (5 mana "dead card") and worm harvest (5 mana "dead card") is funny, because resolving SFM or Intuition gives a 2:1 (altough not really with worm harvest). I am not sure if this is good enough...

I did not play nearly enough with worm harvest to make a good call however Ali Aintrazis article was irritating to me, because he is doubting if a singleton worm-harvest is good enough for his SB (not MD) altough he plays 4 loam and 4 entomb in his BU Pox deck. (totally different deck with different issues, but still I thought if worm harvest at his best in his deck)

check out.
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/23504_Rise_Of_Aintrazi_Poxing_DC.html

If you think that most of the time you rather win with Jace or Thrun, we could just replace the mind harvest with an eternal witness.

What you should also think about is how you can gain life to have a chance against the burn matchup (there should be some options with intuition... altough probably bad ones)

So enough brain-masturbation here is what I am going to play a couple of games with:

Your list SDmatt with the following changes:

-1 Swamp
+ 1 Misty Rainforest
btw: I am concerned about the blue and fetch count. Volraths stronghold and Cabal Pit might have to go?... Also wastelands have more value playing Loam/Intuition.

-1 Virtues Ruin
-1 Damnation
-1 Counterspell
+ 2 Spell Pierce
+ 1 Spell Snare

-1 Worm Harvest
+ 1 Eternal Witness

___________
concerning the SB:
I just checked my worm harvest list:
Academy ruins + Crypt/Zuran orb/EE (and loam of course) looks so slow and playing only 2 Intuition I can't imagine this is good enough.

I would for sure like to play 3 Vendilion Clique versus combo & control

DKK
02-10-2012, 02:39 PM
One of the issues I envision with this deck is it's 'vulnerability' to GY hate. Both Snapcaster and Goyf (and possibly Tombstalker) are affected by it, as well as Ghastly Demise. What is the deck's main plan against opposing Relics? Using a Deed to get rid of a single Relic does not look that profitable to me.

JimmyC27
02-10-2012, 10:03 PM
Has anyone tried bringing Kitchen Finks off the SB as an improvement to aggro matches?




@DKK

I would focus on winning through Jace, and ignore the relic.. use the Deed to keep the board clean.

Einherjer
02-11-2012, 05:40 AM
Ive done some changes to my list and Id like to hear your opinion on it,
This was the list I ran before:

22 Lands including 4 Waste 1 Riptide 0 Basics

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster Mage

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell

3 Ghastly Demise
1 Go for the Throat

2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize

3 Pernicious Deed

4 Brainstorm

1 Unearth
1 Life from the Loam

Sideboard:

1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Unearth
1 Life from the Loam
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Virtue's Ruin
1 Krosan's Grip
1 Nature' Claim
2 Duress

Now I run:

24 Lands ( 10 Fetchies, 7 Duals, 1 Sunken Ruins, 1 Creeping Tar Pit, 4 Wastelands)

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster Mage

3 Jace, the MInd Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell

3 Ghastly Demise
1 Go for the Throat

4 Thoughtseize ( I cut 2 Hymns here to add 1 Thoughtseize + 1 extraslot)

3 Pernicious Deed

4 Brainstorm

2 Life from the Loam (I switched the SB-LftL to mainboard, cause its so good against Canadian and alot of other decks=

Sideboard:
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Unearth
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Virtue's Ruin
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Krosan's Grip
2 Duress
Not too many changes in the Sideboard.

So I still got 1 extra-Slot in the maindeck to be filled. Why did I cut Hymns? Cause I didnt like to be completly tapped out T2 and enable my opponent to play what he likes too. So I was thinking of putting in a second Counterspell or the fourth Spell Snare...
Or a 5th cc1 Discard?
And I was thinking of putting even more LftL into the sideboard in order to crush tempodecks - they can hardly beat a Control-Deck that just has resolved an LftL

What do you think of this updated version? It looks pretty strong if you ask me - but that might be pretty subjective :P

Greetings

JimmyC27
02-11-2012, 09:16 PM
Couple of questions:

1) What's the right combination of Jace and Liliana? I've seen everything from 3-3, 3-2, 3-1, and 2-2.


2) What's the right combination of Deeds between main and sideboard? How do you break them up? Lately, I've been feeling like 4 Deeds is too many. Perhaps 2 main, 1 side?


3) Does Clique belong in the maindeck at all? He's an extra beater, and has some come into play effects that help the deck out. If he's not maindeck material, why not?


4) Any suggestions on a way to add life gain to this deck? I was considering Kitchen Finks...



Thanks for your thoughts.

Jimmy

Razorwynd
02-12-2012, 02:03 AM
I feel like GG on the finks might be to taxing... I mean you want U for brainstorm and spell snare, B for ghastly demise, and GG for kitchen finks all with in the first three turns. I wonder how often that actually occurs and it leaves you no room to combat PoP with basics.

What about dark heart sliver? you can even side it in against dredge to remove bridges!

Just a thought.

JimmyC27
02-12-2012, 02:17 AM
Darkheart Sliver is pretty clever. Thanks for the suggestion.

Plague Sliver
02-12-2012, 04:36 AM
I was recently brewing this:

<<Sweet list>>



Nice build, I like the virtual CA with Thrun. No love for Gigapede? :laugh:

How does it fare against Stoneblade G1? And have you thought about playing Goyfs out of the board to handle Burn / Aggro?

catmint
02-12-2012, 01:05 PM
Couple of questions:

1) What's the right combination of Jace and Liliana? I've seen everything from 3-3, 3-2, 3-1, and 2-2.


2) What's the right combination of Deeds between main and sideboard? How do you break them up? Lately, I've been feeling like 4 Deeds is too many. Perhaps 2 main, 1 side?


3) Does Clique belong in the maindeck at all? He's an extra beater, and has some come into play effects that help the deck out. If he's not maindeck material, why not?


4) Any suggestions on a way to add life gain to this deck? I was considering Kitchen Finks...



Thanks for your thoughts.

Jimmy

1) I would not go less than 3 jace except for in confidant builds
Liliana is a meta decision as well as matter of taste. I play 1 main + 1 side

2) Deed: 3-4, but I just love them and play them very well (I think) so I play 2 main 2side

3) I played clique in Amsterdam and it was bad. SO many clunky hadns with jace/snapcaster/clique... We have much better options for handcontrol with snapcaster + discard and the beater is not the biggest consideration for me since I hardly win tempobased (bringing enough beats in before opponent develops his game). She is awesome versus combo/control but I use most SB slots for bad matchups and not favourable ones...

4) Any life gain option for us just sucks. Imagine spending a 2 mana + a card for 3 life where burn spends 1 mana and a card for 3 damage, where burn has a 66% chance to draw 3 more damage and you don't.

The optimal hands versus burn has 2 Lands, Goyf, Hymn, Removal, Spell Snare , Force of Will. If you have something like this + brainstorm it also has a shot.

Btw: the best life-gain option is batterskull IMO (even casting it)

JimmyC27
02-12-2012, 03:51 PM
Good point on the life gain. This is why I often consider playing Esper Control.. which has better removal (Swords + Path), and also picks up the life gain from Batterskull/Jitte. However, I don't like giving up Deed--plus Tarmogoyf is a "set and forget" type card that doesn't tie up a lot of mana like SFM.

Einherjer
02-13-2012, 12:19 AM
Why dont we just play 2 Jittes in the sideboard to equip our Tarmogoyf - which cannot be killed by burn easily - and then bump into infinite life?

catmint
02-13-2012, 04:35 AM
Having 2 Jitte versus burn brings you 4 life earliest turn 4 but also requires Tarmogoyf.
Having 2 Batterskull brings you 4 life earliest turn 6 without needing tarmogoyf but needing a lot of lands.

Hmm...Jitte sounds like the better options. The problem is we cannot use it against creature decks, because they wreck us if we play creatures to get jitte counters. So it would be a very narrow sideboard card, which is ok if the it's a metagame call.

Someone going to test jitte if that plan really works out?

For now I am ok loosing 65%+ of the time versus burn. What makes me feel good is that we also can have some draws which they have a hard time beating and that (no offense to all good burn players) a lot of them make horrible play mistakes + SB choices.

Einherjer
02-13-2012, 09:21 AM
We could aswell play 1-2 Divining Tops mainboard to enable 3 Counterblanaces + 1-2 Tops coming from the Sideboard - these wreck Burn totally aswell.


EDIT: What outs do we have vs Elspeth? I fold to this friggen card - Maybe we should play Maelstrom pulse?

Greetings

catmint
02-13-2012, 02:21 PM
Same for me with elspeth. I killed some having a huge goyf + deed or removal, but she is like blood moon... has to be discarded or countered.

Cards i do not play currently which could deal with her:
- Vendilion Clique
- bitterblossom

Einherjer
02-13-2012, 03:40 PM
What does your list look like Catmint? Still the one you posted a few pages ago? I think its really a good move to include 2-3 Vendilion Cliques since theyre really epic. Maybe Ill be playing something like this:

EDIT:Nevermind - this list is bad ^^ Ill stay with my old one

catmint
02-13-2012, 04:52 PM
i am currently playing around but if I would go to a tournament now I would play the list I posted, because I had very good results.

i dont get the list you posted. you play no removal/64 cards?

test clique in this configuration and see if you come to different results than me (clunky and not supporting the bad matchups)...If so i would only run her in the SB I think

sdematt
02-13-2012, 10:23 PM
A friend of mine and I gauntleted my BUG list against RUG Tempo, Reanimator, Stoneblade, and Maverick. It was pretty sweet. The matchups were all at least even pre-board, and we didn't get to do postboard yet.

-Matt

Einherjer
02-14-2012, 02:03 PM
I got a new list I wanted to share, its pretty nice

23 Lands (1 TarPit 1 Sunken Ruins 4 Wastelands)

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster Mage

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell

3 Thoughtseize
3 Ghastly Demise
1 Go for the Throat

4 Brainstorm

3 Perniciuos Deed
1 Life from the Loam

I added the 3 Spell Pierces to have a better preboard-game versus Combo and Stoneblade while still fucking Maverick with 3 Deeds. The 1 Loam is still for the Canadian MU or just for the opportunity when I want to manascrew an opponent. It plays very smoothly and good. What do you think?

Greetings

Koby
02-14-2012, 02:13 PM
I think this deck needs 1-2 Ponder/Preordain, both for consistency, and to pump Goyf. Getting Goyf to become 4/5 is a big concern to be able to win races. I'd also try to fit in another Liliana in the 75, if she's not already in the SB.

Einherjer
02-14-2012, 02:29 PM
I play 2 Liliana in my 75 - 1 Main 1 Side

Where would you make space for Ponders in the list I posted up there? Counterspell? Spell Pierce? And to be honest - getting a Sorcery down is not that much of a problem due to following reasons:
We have discard - TS/IoK/Hymn
We have opponents who may play Sorceries
We dont have to drop a 4/5 Goyf T2, and when were in the race to the win its typically later than T2 so Goyf should be 4/5+ then

Greetings

catmint
02-15-2012, 04:21 AM
Drew Levin wrote an article talking about colors in legacy. He evaluates every card in the current meta, but IMO has a too narrow minded view. It seems that all SCG writers think their tournament series is the only legacy "reality"...

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/23605_How_To_Think_About_Legacy_As_A_Format_Black_Red_And_Green.html


Anyway he made a lot of comments about BUG.

His evaluation of the black removal spells is pretty bad I think. He does not value Ghastly Demise enough altough giving the explanation why it is excellect right now (kills everything and confidant is not played a lot). He is overvaluing edict and liliana because the SCG series finally realized that they have to play mongoose and not 4 snapcaster in their RUG decks...:laugh: however, mongoose is a much less potent clock early which can be outclassed with Goyf on the ground...

"Ghastly Demise

Currently mediocre: Ghastly Demise is a fine card. It's nothing to write home about, but it usually does what you want it to do: kill a Delver early, kill a Goyf in the midgame, kill a Knight in the late game. Since Dark Confidant doesn't see a ton of play, it's getting better. Still, I wouldn't play more than one or two in whatever black deck you're sleeving up."

Then he calls Dark Confidant the only reason to play black *sigh* This comments from people who say things like "I love the diversity of the format" is painful. Not that I care about him, but I care about all the people believing him...
The funny thing is that again in his explanation he contradicts his judgement naming very popular cards which all answers confidant easily. His suggestions to play him along 6 discard spells is just embarrasing...

Dark Confidant

Just about the only reason to play black anymore: Dark Confidant is a great card. Unfortunately, a lot of what sees play right now is one-mana ways to trump Bob: Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares, Chain Lightning, Spell Snare, and Darkblast all answer The Great One while gaining value. If he lives, he's great. It's very possible that the answer is to bump up the discard element of a Dark Confidant deck and play something like 4 Inquisition of Kozilek and 2 Thoughtseize, since Bob is a game-winner if you get to untap with him and any sort of reasonable hand.

And then about Hymn...

Hymn to Tourach

Mediocre, could be good: For several months early last year, Hymn to Tourach was the premier card advantage spell. Nowadays, it's pretty rotten. What changed? Innistrad, as usual.

Delver of Secrets made the format even faster. Doing nothing on turn two after doing nothing on turn one is a recipe for disaster. It's very possible that there's a BUG deck out there that wants to cast Hymn to Tourach, but it has to defend its (always sketchy) mana from a ton of Wastelands, it has to play catch-up on the board a lot, and it probably won't get to flashback its Hymn to Tourachs for value that often. People aren't sitting around with a ton of cards in their hands, waiting for something to happen. The game happens on the board now, which doesn't really benefit someone who wants to cast Hymn to Tourach.

If you want to play a board control deck, you have a ton of better card advantage spells. If you want to disrupt an opponent, you can flip your Delver with your Inquisition, cast it, then flash it back a turn later with your Snapcaster Mage. Snapcaster Mage has made it harder for card advantage spells to justify themselves. Decks have to be faster to the board and more aggressive, so hand death has gotten a lot worse.

If you're looking to make this work, I would start by playing four to six one-mana removal spells. You can't afford to cast a Hymn to Tourach against Mongoose or Delver, get it Dazed or Spell Pierced or Spell Snared, and then get Wastelanded. Your deck isn't going to survive sequences like that. If you keep the opposition off of the board early, though, Hymn to Tourach gets a lot more value.

First: He is evaluating Hymn onlyversus Delver decks saying that the card is bad, because these decks are so fast and the action is on the board and people are not sitting around with their cards in hand. RUG Delver ALWAYS has a ton of cards in hand and of course if they start with a delver you should probably play removal first...Btw. The best removal spell in this situation is of course ghastly demise... RUG tempo often sits around doing nothing wanting to stifle or play a mongoose (which is almost like doing nothing in the first 4-5 turns)

However he correcly outlines how to use Hymn versus RUG (keep the board clear first) and play patient (playing land-go if they don't apply pressure) so you dont run into stifle/wasteland/counter.

More reference conderning the RUG Tempo matchup:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22630-Article-.....-Constructed-Criticism.....-quot-look-at-Legacy-RUG-quot&highlight=RUG

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22551-Deck-BUG-Control-Team-America-control-style/page2

My personal comments to Hymn. Hymn and Deed are the reasons I don't play UW control. I get a lot of value from Snapcaster + Hymn regulary...

From the current DTB Hymn is great against RUG Tempo, UW Control, Storm and decent against the rest except for dredge. Against Burn decks which got a lot of attention lately Hymn reads usually "prevent 6+ damage".

wcm8
02-15-2012, 05:40 AM
I agree with the above sentiment, his dismissal of several cards is confusing/short-sighted. For example, Thoughtseize is better than IoK in lots of decks precisely because it hits any card. He said that the 'only' cards with cmc of 4 or more that gets played in Legacy are Jace, Elspeth, and FoW. Obviously he wasn't considering Batterskull, Ad Nauseam, Hive Mind, Emrakul/Progenitus, etc.. Now obviously some of these are more niche than others, but Batterskull and Jace alone should be enough to justify seize over iok in plenty of decks.

Dark Confidant is good, but he is hardly the only reason to splash black. In plenty of matchups he is mediocre at best.

Whatever, just another useless SCG article.

sdematt
02-15-2012, 10:00 PM
I'm just wondering people's thoughts on the threat debate. I know most/some people are running Tarmogoyf, but aren't y'all worried about removal?

Personally, for me, I'm running the deck in a much more controlling fashion. I want threats that'll either stay onboard, or can be recurred for extra advantage.

I'm also just putting it out there that Worm Harvest is VERY good. I'm winning most of my games by grinding out the early game with infinite removal, then winning off the back of Jace, Thrun, or Worm Harvest.

We're trying an Intuition build at the moment (similar to Hanni's list from infinite ago) and it's been pretty stellar.

-Matt

catmint
02-16-2012, 04:03 AM
I played the intuition build for a couple of games (not nearly enough to play it well/to its full potential), but I felt if I do not play discard I can just play UW Stoneblade...I also felt that not having pointed discard I rely too much on counterspells to survive the early/mid game in a fashion that I can turn it around...

concerning "worrying about removal".
I run the deck also in a very controlling fashion which means early goyfs are an exception (I play only 3 maindeck and in many matchups go to 2 postboard). So the gameplan is to land a jace (blanking a lot of removal spells) or a goyf when the opponent does not have removal in hand relying on top decks.

Einherjer
02-16-2012, 03:13 PM
Id just like to hear some opinions about this list I posted a little above
23 Lands (1 TarPit 1 Sunken Ruins 4 Wastelands)

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster Mage

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell

3 Thoughtseize
3 Ghastly Demise
1 Go for the Throat

4 Brainstorm

3 Perniciuos Deed
1 Life from the Loam

Maybe Ill just describe a lil more in order to get more feedback.
This list is designed to stand its ground preboard. None of the other strategies (ok maybe Storm) is really easy - but there isnt a signel one thats really negative ( I dont count Dredge and Burn - as theyre death for us by nature). Deeds should keep all Aggro+Maverick under Control, whereas the Loam is here to give us a lil edge over Canadian. Considering the removal I might cut the GftT in order to add an edict. The Countersuite is built to be useful against every single deck and is doing fine.

What do you think guys?

JimmyC27
02-16-2012, 03:32 PM
Is that 1 Counterspell ever awkward? Also, are the Spell Pierces ever just worthless in some match ups?

I find the Dredge and Burn matches to not be bad. Dredge seems pretty good post-board with Surgical Extraction + Snapcaster -- have you tried mulling for this? BUT, I have definitely had noticeable trouble against Manaless Dredge decks.

I've been using Kitchen Finks against Zoo/Burn decks (things that don't operate on Wasteland)... and that has tested pretty well. Before that even, the proper use of Hymn, Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, and FOW coupled with some sort of clock was getting me there.

sdematt
02-16-2012, 11:44 PM
I've been liking this list:

4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Cabal Pit
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Wasteland

2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Shriekmaw

3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Mana Leak
3 Spell Snare
3 Intuition

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Worm Harvest
1 Life from the Loam
1 Darkblast
1 Noxious Revival --> the tits

3 Ghastly Demise
2 Damnation
3 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard:

2 Virtue's Ruin
1 Life from the Loam
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
3 Krosan Grip
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Gigapede

Thoughts?

-Matt

Einherjer
02-17-2012, 12:50 AM
I added Spell Pierces to fight Elspeth while I was only testing vs Maverick but oviously they are more than that and helpful in alot of games. I couldnt imagine winning a Reanimator G1 without Pierces. So I wouldnt cut them. The 1 Counterspel is just sweet in the later game - I might up it to 2 Counterspells as an additional card - because i got flooded yesterday 5/10 games - which is very annoying.
Pierces are not really bad in any MU - vs Zoo you can counter a PtE which targets your Goofie or things like that. But it has really MU where it shines: combo, blue decks

Greetings

Seems Good
02-17-2012, 01:42 AM
I sleeved up this build for the first time tonight and I had a great time playing it. Here are some thoughts on specific cards and card types:

Spot removal - I started off testing Dismember and Go for the Throat at 2 of each. GFFT was excellent; Dismember was great at CMC:1, especially when flashed back with Snap, but the -4 life really seemed to hurt, and was even prohibitive in close matches once life totals dwindled down close to 0. I think the deck really wants a 1 drop kill spell at 2-3 slots...I haven't tested Ghastly Demise yet but it seems like it could be a great fit. I'm thinking something like 3 Ghastly, 3 GFFT? Testing against 3 different aggro control/tempo style decks, the deck definitely wanted to keep drawing and using spot removal.

Sweepers - Started with two Pernicious Deed. I love this card. However, not once was I in a situation where it seemed extremely useful. May have been due to the fact that it wasn't optimal for my matchups, or I may not have been making right play choices. I feel like this card definitely deserved MD slots though. Also, seeing lists here with Damnation makes me want to test it. How has it been for everyone?

Counterspells - Force of Will at 4 of seemed really solid. With that being said, I really like Spell Pierce at 2 of. I also tested Spell Snare at 2 of, which I wasn't as impressed with. It was like I was always tapped out when they were playing two drops and I had it in hand. Again could be play error. Interested to hear other peoples opinions on counter suites.

Creatures - Tested 4 Tarmogoyf and 4 Snapcaster Mage. Both seemed right at 4 of. I may even want to test 2-3 Vendilion Clique as well. The only prohibiting factor IMO is the 1UU cost. Anyone test this guy extensively?

Land - As I'm a big fan, I tested 3 Mishra's Factory in the MD and I have to say I was extremely impressed with this guy. It seemed like most games came down to this guy sticking around after removal/trades/sweepers etc and getting in for the win. Also added resiliency with a 1of Life from the Loam really helped. That card is also a boss. There were games where I just waste-locked my opponent into oblivion. Other games it was just a card advantage machine in general between factories, fetches and wastes. What is the thought on this vs. Crucible of Worlds?

Any thoughts, experiences, and opinions would be greatly appreciated.

sdematt
02-17-2012, 03:36 AM
Ghastly is great since most of the time your grave is choke-full pretty quick.

Deed is great, but maybe you're just running into matchups where it's not the greatest.

Damnation has saved my butt more times than you can count. Snapcaster-->Damnation is also the tits.

-Matt

catmint
02-17-2012, 04:11 AM
How can you support mishra and wasteland with loam?
Do you run a typical build with hymn?

I run 24 lands with 4 non color producing +1 semi non color: Sunken Ruins (most of the time a fixer and very rarely a liability). For the 4 non color producing I think wasteland is the best in terms of power level and utility with Loam.

flounce
02-17-2012, 06:05 AM
Hi All,

First time poster, Long time fan.

My question is; Is it worth playing a basic samp over the sunken ruins? As it still allows for T1 IoK, T2 Hymn, T3 Snap Flash IoK. It also allows us to play a basic land. Plus is seems we dont need our Green and Blue mana early. Apart from Spell Snare.

catmint
02-17-2012, 06:54 AM
What is the value of 1 basic swamp?

Also brainstorm into spell snare/pierce might be an important thing to do in turn 2.

flounce
02-17-2012, 07:16 AM
Good Point, That's a line of play I hadn't thought of.

You are probably right about Ruins over Swamp, Swamp doesn't add enough value. I know Gerry T loves ruins.

My next question is: what hands (besides the obvious ones) do you mulligan Game 1, against an unknown opponent? This was a problem I had when I played Tempo TA.

JimmyC27
02-17-2012, 09:45 AM
@flounce

I'm probably the dissenting opinion on basic lands, but I run 1 swamp, 1 forest, 1 island. The 1 swamp lets you play into Hymn turn2 without having to worry about Wasteland. If you have a metagame void of Wasteland and Choke/Back to Basics/Blood Moon, I would just max out on nonbasics.


@sdematt

Is Thrun good enough to cut Tarmogoyf for? I currently run 4 Goof, 4 Snap.

Seems Good
02-17-2012, 10:13 AM
How can you support mishra and wasteland with loam?
Do you run a typical build with hymn?

I run 24 lands with 4 non color producing +1 semi non color: Sunken Ruins (most of the time a fixer and very rarely a liability). For the 4 non color producing I think wasteland is the best in terms of power level and utility with Loam.

I was running 4 hymn, and I don't think I had issues resolving it all at. However, I did find that I wished it was a different card (spot removal or counter) at times. I'm not 100% sold on it as a 4of and I might cut one.

With that being said my manabase had 3 factory and 4 waste, and I was even considering upping the factory count to 4. They were just an absolute champ in games I played.

Einherjer
02-17-2012, 11:26 AM
I cut Hymns quite a while ago and now im playing Thoughtseize as you see on my list above.
I do not miss them at all - targeted discard is just so much better than random - even though hitting the right things with Hymn is and will always be one of the strongest moves in Legacy - but you can aswell hit 2 unnessecary cards.

Greetings

sdematt
02-17-2012, 04:08 PM
In my build, games go longer so I'm fine with Thrun. I can Deed away the board and just regenerate him. No removal in the land hits him, and sitting there chumping for Jace is still pretty good, and if not, he's swinging for 4 :)

4 damage is enough when they have nothing in play.

-Matt

catmint
02-22-2012, 09:43 AM
Did anyone ever play against Nic Fit before?

I think the matchup is pretty bad:

- Veteran Explorer/Cabal Therapy is sooo good versus us (neither basics or swords to plowshares)

- So is SD.top

- Discard is mediorce versus them (witness/cabal/SD.top/recurring nightmare)

- Spell Snare is pretty bad, because their only 2 drops are GSZ tutor targets..

- They have a lot versus jace (Thrun, deranged hermit, maelstrom pulse)

- Spot Removal is pretty bad - they get a lot of value and later drops have protection or are titans. (Witness, Veteran Explorer, Kitchen Finks, Thrun, Wall of Blossoms)

- Deed is not really good. Still killls a lot but does nothing versus a late game GSZ for witness to recast a sun titan).

- They have a much better late game including 6 drops, GSZ toolbox / witness, Recurring Nightmare, Gifts, Punishing Fire or some other ugly stuff...

In general it is a deck that wins with creatures, but the usual tools/gameplan we have to fight creature decks are not very effective since they are the better control deck in the sense of having a better late game and of course a very good acceleration with veteran explorer.

Therefore the probably most successful strategy is the tempo plan: dropping goyf and pray to bring it home with discard, counterspells & removal. I only played 1 game so far and did not really know what i was up against ... getting my ass kicked pretty hard.

Does anyone hava experience?

My SB plan at the moment:
- 3 Spell Snare
- 2 Pernicous Deed
- 1 Wasteland
- 1 Dismember

+ 1 Tarmogoyf
+ 1 Force of Will
+ 2 Spell Pierce
+ 1 Ghastly Demise
+ 2 Surgical Extraction
+ 1 Liliana of the Veil

wcm8
02-22-2012, 10:25 AM
Nic Fit isn't as much of a problem for Team America, particular with a build running Cliques and/or Delver to supplement Goyf and Stalker. The plan is to not let them get to the late game, and in this matchup Stifle is really good. Depending on the particular build of Nic Fit, they can have a pretty rough time dealing with an early Tarmogoyf as well.

I'd hate to say it, but a slower, more controlling BUG deck is going to have problems in this matchup because it's precisely the type of deck that Nic Fit is built to beat. Unless you start warping your strategy/card selection around significantly, I would just chalk this up to being a bad matchup and move on.

I would add that Liliana is pretty good in this matchup, and is an easy fit into BUG control, particularly if you have a Loam or two as well. Perhaps BUG could add a Terravore or two to end the games quickly once board dominance is established?

catmint
02-22-2012, 11:20 AM
That sounds reasonable.. Pretty annyoing though...Matching versus other "blue based" control decks is fun, but versus Nic Fit is just ugly...

Hope it won't become too popular... we need more combo guys!! :laugh:

JimmyC27
02-22-2012, 12:00 PM
Nic Fit... a match up where having basics has value... :)

Have you tried using Surgical Extraction in this match up? I generally find that Nic Fit ends up in topdeck mode rather often. I'd hit them with discard, and keep relevant bombs off the board with your counterspells. I'd also focus on protecting Jace in this match up more than normal.

Why is this deck called "Nic Fit"?