[Deck] Dredge

[Dice_Box]

It is being talked about, just not in this thread.

I personally don't run Angel, so I do not see myself running this new card. That said, it still is viable and I can see it making its way into all the legacy decks that currently run Angel. This one included.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[Final Fortune]

Hey Fellow Golgari's players,

I'm quite shocked that nobody is talking about the new spoiler from Theros : Ashen Rider

Ashen Rider
Creature - Archon
Flying
When Ashen Rider enters the battlefield or dies, exile target permanent. 5/5

I was thinking all day long about this and i think it can become a good target (if you play one in g1) for the main deck cause it offers some stupid plays with a fast deck like LED dredge where T2 reanimation isn't a dream. This guy can also target lands and synergyse massively with cabal therapy => our opponents got no ressource left and faces a large army of undead. Even if it is a small chance (cause you need it in your opening hand) he is a great outlet against S&T decks. Exile effect is a way better than a permanent destruction because you can kill a dude without exiling your bridges.

What do you think about it? I'm pretty interested by your thoughts.

Don't think we should bother with Dread Return or Targets MD, and SB I think you're better off with either Grudge or Ray. Seems like the best possible card to MD as a 1x for Manaless Dredge tho'.

That aside, how are people dealing with Deathrite Shaman on the draw?

[igri_is_a_bk]

I'm playing four Firestorm mb since I'm not on LED anymore. Otherwise, nothing. Two rainbow lands plus Darkblast is too unreliable and it's obviously vulnerable to the DRS itself. On the other hand, maybe the answer is overloading on dredgers to discard two or more with higher frequency.

[Juicy Karaage]

That aside, how are people dealing with Deathrite Shaman on the draw?

If my hand isn't explosive enough, play land, go. Draw a couple of draw spells, land, dredgers and maybe LED then go off

[raikenxy]

you deal with deathrite shaman by running dread return main... x.0

[DarkJester]

If my hand isn't explosive enough, play land, go. Draw a couple of draw spells, land, dredgers and maybe LED then go off

This!

Postboard my plan is usually speed and in addition two (max. three) Firestorms in my Deck to have more good openers versus Shaman (LED/BT or Firestorm).

[HammafistRoob]

That's not quite accurate, being able to chain dredgers allows you to discard non-dredgers from your hand, there are situations where I'd forego discarding a Stinkweed Imp over a Cabal Therapy if I could dredge a Golgari Thug and have a guaranteed Cabal Therapy on my next turn, you have to think very carefully about how chain dredging allows you to discard other cards in your hand for better value propositions.

I'm not sure how this pertains to anything I said. We were strictly speaking about LED, Troll, Looting, 4 blanks hands. I understand that there are situations where you want to discard other gy pieces, but this isn't one of them because you'd have no other dredgers in the 'yard.

About the turn1 DRS while on the draw; I like to try and keep as much of my explosive spells in after 'boarding as possible in an attempt to overwhelm him. Once the window opens you jump right through it. Therefore, I think Igri is on to something about running more dredgers, probably in the side. Having two available is optimal when staring down Shaman. Putrid Imp is also an all-star in this scenario because controlled discard outlets are so valuable here. I'm not the biggest fan of firestorm but it does help against DRS.

[birdbrains]

What are people's thoughts on the new Dispel?

Swan Song
U
Instant
Counter target enchantment, instant or sorcery spell. It's controller puts a 2/2 Blue bird creature token with flying onto the battlefield.

My initial assessment is that it's flexible. Surgical can hit us pretty hard, and this is an out to that. More importantly, this hits Rest in Peace before it resolves and triggers. I know there was discussion about playing a copy of Stifle for the ETB trigger, and Swan Song seems strictly better in that situation.

Being flexible also means we don't have as much guesswork to do going into game 2. Because there's such varied hate for dredge, sometimes we can get surprised by someone's board plan. Swan Song can lower our chances of getting blown out game 2 in those situations.

[HammafistRoob]

Seems like it should be tested fosho. It does hit the two most heavily played hate cards. This card is better than people think.

[Dice_Box]

I like it. It is a one mana Counter that does not hit Art, or critter. Art is a pain but as long as its not card, you can flash back Grudge. Its in colour too for all our lands. Looks ok.

[birdbrains]

I'll be straight with you, I didn't understand a word you wrote about artifacts. But the only artifact we don't beat by slow dredging, we can beat with claim or grudge (or my new favorite tech - ingot chewer). RiP is a Complete blowout most of the time, and Surgical can really fuck up our game if the opponent is smart. I'd consider them much higher priority targets than Relic/Crypt.

[Dice_Box]

I meant to say cage. Have no idea how I typed card. Need to Reread my shit.

As long as the artifact in question is not Cage, I think we can use Grudge to force it to be cracked or otherwise delt with.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[birdbrains]

Nature's Claim hits cage as well as enchantment hate. We also shouldn't cut anti-hate for it.

Like right now my board is

4 Pithing Needle
3 Nature's Claim
2 Ashen Ghoul
2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Wispmare
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Coffin Purge/Cremate

I'll probably go +2 Swan Song -1 Needle -1 land for testing.

[Que]

@birdbrains.
I don't believe Swan Song offers us what we want. For almost the same reason we play Tarnished Citadel over say Forbidden Orchard is the fact that it gives your opponent a creature. A 2/2 is still able to trade with a considerable amount of your threats which forces you into a precarious situation (You don't want to attack into it for fear of losing bridges). With the amount of creature removal available (Lightning Bolt, Forked Bolt, Dismember, Liliana, Punishing Fire, Lavamancer.. etc.. ) in the format its not outrageous to think they can simply kill off their own creature at an opportune time and wreck your zombie plan.

If you really wanted a way to counter an enchantment on the stack then I would look to Annul which not only takes care of RIP, but has the added benefit of handling artifacts as well which encompasses a good amount of existing grave yard hate. This is all assuming you don't care about countering Sorceries or Instants.

In my experience Surgical Extraction isn't really an issue unless its seen in multiples (or Snapcaster). I know it can depend on a case by case basis and how effectively they choose to time it, however, plucking 4 cards out of your deck does not completely stop the engine. They want to hit various cards that impact the game - Bridges, Ichorid, Narcomoebas, Dredgers, Cabal Therapy - which they cannot do with a single source. If you really dislike the card you can always try Noxious Revival to fizzle the Surgical or even worse cards like Purify the Grave/Coffin Purge to exile your own copy and fizzle the Surgical before he/she hits all your copies. I wouldn't really recommend that strategy though.

Btw how is that SB treating you? ;)

[birdbrains]

I think I'm going to cut a needle for the Deals Open. I frequently find myself only boarding in 3 or fewer. I'm not sure if I want to squeeze in the last Claim or use it as a flex slot yet.

Ingot Chewer and Wispmare are sweet. They're very synergystic with the deck. Killing hate + getting a bridge trigger is really nice. Recycling them with Thug is so much value as well.


As far as Swan Song goes, I think it's at least worth testing. I think enough Game 2s start with the opponent dropping T1 Crypt/Relic in those matchups, so we wouldn't even have a mana open for Annul. We can slow dredge around them and have Needle as an additional out. Depending on the game state and matchup, a 2/2 flier isn't going to be as detrimental as getting the graveyard reset. We can just block it with Narcos and net zombies, or do something like return a couple Ichorids and pass the turn to develop our board. If Bridges are irrelevant and things get really desperate, Putrid Imp also trades with the bird.

[Ziilot]

As far as Swan Song goes, I think it's at least worth testing. I think enough Game 2s start with the opponent dropping T1 Crypt/Relic in those matchups, so we wouldn't even have a mana open for Annul. We can slow dredge around them and have Needle as an additional out. Depending on the game state and matchup, a 2/2 flier isn't going to be as detrimental as getting the graveyard reset. We can just block it with Narcos and net zombies, or do something like return a couple Ichorids and pass the turn to develop our board. If Bridges are irrelevant and things get really desperate, Putrid Imp also trades with the bird.

If we would not have mana for Annul why would we have mana open for Swan Song? Or what am I missing here?

Also, Putrid Imp isn't trading with Bird, since it can't block.

[igri_is_a_bk]

No, but the Swan can block meaning you miss out on damage every turn they leave their new token untapped. Spells that are reactive to the stack are so bad in dredge, just the same as all the other decks that don't want to leave mana open. Think about the window of opportunity that Swan Song is good compared to our typical answers - Nature's Claim, Chain of Vapor, Ancient Grudge, Wispare, Pithing Needle, etc. which can hit their target any time after it is in play.

The last time we tried to play a reactive spell was Coffin Purge when Surgical Extraction was released. That plan didn't work and we didn't even have to draw the Purge! I have very little faith in the new Swan Song here.

[Anusien]

birdbrains: What are you siding Pithing Needle in against? Are people not diversifying their Crypts against you? I assume you're not bringing in Crypts and Claims against Tormod's Crypts.

[birdbrains]

I'm not playing any Firestorms or Darkblast, so it serves as anti-hate for Deathrite Shaman, as well as incidental hate on any other troublesome permanents (whether they're hate cards or not.)

[raikenxy]

went 4-2 at a local gaming store's tournament the other day. there was 30 plus people and I missed out on top 8 on breakers (finished 10th, shout out to my crew as 3 of us got top 16 and one of us was top 8) my match ups were

1: American Delver (0-2): I walk into counterspells game one and just can't get anything going, game two he drops a rest in peace :/
2: Scape Fit (2-1) He gets a game loss game one, has the perfect hand to beat me game two, and game three i draw the nut hand and flayer him.
3. AD Nauseum (0-2) He's simply just faster then me both games
4: Reanimator: (2-1) Game one he's at three life with elesh norn on board and a griselbrand... i attack him for seven with my golgari grave troll (which is a 9/9) he blocks it with elesh. He exhumes it on his turn not realizing that by exhuming i get Flayer and kill him lol. Game two he gets elesh norn on turn two. Game three I flayer him on turn two before he can get get elesh on the field.
5: U/R Delver: (2-0) I slow roll him both games playing around stifle/daze/spell pierce. His goblin guide eventually gets me to 8 but has revealed enough lands for me to hard cast an ichorid to dread return a flayer and begin bolting him every turn. Game two stick to DDD and therapy him before im about to go off and flayer him to see a hand full of useless counterspells. Therapy them away and zombies are too much for him.
6: Junk Depths: (2-1): He suprisingly gets marit lage on the field turn three after wasting my city of brass which would have allowed me to kill him quickly. Narcomeaba's chump block until i can flayer him. Game two he bogs me early (misplay) and gets two deathrite shamans going. Game three i draw the nuts, and flayer kill him turn two.

notes on the day

- Nether shadows were a boss. The only games i didnt bring them in for were against the combo match ups. Looking back they were the only cards i really sideboarded in throughout the day
- hate was relatively nonexistent, as there was combo everywhere in the room

[tyriion]

I went to a BoM8 trial last weekend and took dredge. There were 21 people, but as it was an evening tournament there would be no cut to a top 4.

Playing quadlazer with -1 Ichorid and +1 Dread Return. Brought the following sideboard;

4x Firestorm (elves is really popular here)
3x Nether Shadow
2x Dread Return
2x Flayer of the Hatebound
1x Elesh Norn
1x Iona
1x Blazing Archon
1x Ichorid

Decided not to bring anti-hate as a test. I haven't really won any games after trying to claim a RiP, so I'd rather win before they get it down. Also I'll just dodge Leyline of the Void :)

R1 vs 4c Deathblade
Game 1 went perfectly according to plan (win die roll). Opening 7 were 2x Study, 1x LED, 2 Dredgers a Coliseum and an Ichorid or something. He FoWs LED and Study on T1, I proceed to topdeck a Gemstone Mine on T2 and win from there.
Game 2 He has good counters again and this time manages to extract the Ichorids. I get a Flayer into play (with one in the yard), but I manage to not find a DR or even a Therapy on 5 turns to get the last 9 lives off him. Jace returns the demon to my hand and I scoop. (All narcs in the yard as well)
Game 3 the deck tells me I'll not get any byes tonight. I have to mull to 4 and a FoW and Wasteland are enough to keep me down. A quick Geist finishes the job for him.

0-1 (1-2)

R2 vs Affinity
He tells me he's new to Legacy, it's his first tournament in fact. He complains about losing to Tendrils (Doomsday) in the first round really fast both games.
So game 1 goes like this; Land ---> LED ---> Breakthrough ---> Sac LED ---> Looting. I get 50 power on the table to swing turn 2 by reanimating a 17/17 troll a bunch of zombies and returning 3 Ichorids.
Game 2 I have a good hand again and he scoops to T3 Archon.

1-1 (3-2)

R3 vs Ant
Game 1 is tense, but he has a T3 kill staring at a host of zombies as his preordain shows double tutor.
Game 2 I rip up his hand and a quick Iona seals the deal.
Game 3 he kept a risky hand and doesn't find the land needed. I had a very solid hand, completely immune to his discard. I wanted to go DDD, but I topdeck a PImp to make the hand completely nuts and finish it quickly.

2-1 (5-3)

R4 vs Shardless BUG
Again a very nice guy to play against, he hopes I play something fair.
Game 1 is over by T3 (what's with the nuts hands?)
Game 2 he scoops to Elesh Norn

3-1 (7-3)

This is enough to get me 4th, but as there is no cutoff it's just some store credit for me. The Doomsday player won the 2 byes as the 4c Deathblade player didn't want to go to Paris and left them for him.

Very nice opponents all evening, the tournament being in a bar and no elves make this a nice evening anyway.

[HammafistRoob]

Is it just me, or is the whole anti-hate package kinda a crap shoot? The way to play this deck is to be the aggressive player, not the reactive player. We already need ~4 specific types of cards in our opener, and adding anti-hate into the equation, we need ~5 specific card types post board.

To me, this stands out as terrible strategic gaming. I'm really not too sure what the answer is, but we all know dredge only does well when people are skimping on their gy hate big time. What does this tell us? It tells us that when there's gy hate everywhere, this deck suffers. It also tells us that the anti-hate plan people apply simply doesn't work, or at least not as much as we would hope.

It makes me feel like we are wasting our sideboard. Maybe there is an answer somewhere in this giant cardpool that just hasn't been dug up yet. I just know the idea of dredge is to be the least bit of interactive as possible, and playing reactive cards simply doesn't help reach that goal. It may be that we need free reactive cards so were not spending our whole turn trying to remove their hate. Idk, is anyone else having similar thoughts?

[igri_is_a_bk]

Is it just me, or is the whole anti-hate package kinda a crap shoot? The way to play this deck is to be the aggressive player, not the reactive player. We already need ~4 specific types of cards in our opener, and adding anti-hate into the equation, we need ~5 specific card types post board.

To me, this stands out as terrible strategic gaming. I'm really not too sure what the answer is, but we all know dredge only does well when people are skimping on their gy hate big time. What does this tell us? It tells us that when there's gy hate everywhere, this deck suffers. It also tells us that the anti-hate plan people apply simply doesn't work, or at least not as much as we would hope.

It makes me feel like we are wasting our sideboard. Maybe there is an answer somewhere in this giant cardpool that just hasn't been dug up yet. I just know the idea of dredge is to be the least bit of interactive as possible, and playing reactive cards simply doesn't help reach that goal. It may be that we need free reactive cards so were not spending our whole turn trying to remove their hate. Idk, is anyone else having similar thoughts?

Yeah, the requirements for a hand are pretty strict for sb games, but you don't have to see all the pieces in your opener. A majority of the time I don't have all of them. Perhaps you ran into a string of bad luck because there are only a few hate cards that really require us to sideboard answers. Basically if they don't have Grafdigger's or RiP, I don't bring in the reactive cards. Leyline of the Void is gone from what I have seen. Toss it in that list if you see it normally. I've found it's easier to think about keepers for post-board games with anti-hate in your deck if you prioritize the cards you want, like (1) land, (2) anti-hate, (3) dredger, (4) discard, (5) draw.

I wish there were free answers we could build around, but afaik the only ones are Pulverize and Reverent Silence.

[HammafistRoob]

I know what you mean, and it does suck to be cold to RiP, Cage, and the like. I'm thinking of really focusing on games 1&3, basically conceding the fact if they land hate in game 2, I probably have no board presence or answers to said hate.

When it comes time for game 3 though, I'm hoping to just outspeed their hate. Mainly by exploding on turn1 and stripping their hand. I think it's doable, just not quite sure how at the moment. I'm gonna try boarding 3 DR and 3 Grizz', and go from there. I have a big tourney coming on 10/12 so I've got a little less than a month to prepare. It'll be my first "real" tournament in a long time since my last SCG doesn't really count. I played an untested, untuned pile of crap that was handed to me the day before the event and I still managed a winning record(it wasn't Dredge).

Another idea I've been thinking of trying is to side in FoW and a few supplemental blue spells ala Gitaxian Probe, which speeds us up quite a bit. I've been rereading Feldman's article "The Dark Art of Dredge Fu" an incredible amount of times. I really think he could have the right idea, even though it's a bit dated I think the principle behind his thoughts stands true as far as I've noticed. Anti-hate just sucks imo, and FoW is unlikely to change my perception on that but I wanna test it regardless. I do, however, have high hopes on the triple DR, triple Grizz plan. Any other innovative ideas I should try?

EDIT- This is the board I'm gonna start testing soon. It is very strange, but the current configuration isn't impressing me and I'm trying to shake things up. Bear with me, please.

3 Dread Return
3 Griselbrand
3 Winds of Change
3 Firestorm
2 Ashen Rider
1 Cabal Therapy

[raikenxy]

i used to run griselbrand in my deck, the ability to flip your deck is nice, but if you want to explode out and establish board presence i'd reccommend a 1/2 split of griselbrand and flayer, once you mill your whole deck with flayer you simply win. i've always found it better and have gotten pretty good results even just running 1 flayer maindeck.

[HammafistRoob]

I'm not running any targets maindeck since I'm aiming for maximum consistency. If I flip my deck with Griz there is absolutely no reason to win that turn since I will be destroying their hand immediately. Flayer is winmore, he always was and he always will be. If my opponent topdecks an out on the last turn, so be it. But the odds of that happening are practically nonexistent. How would they ever win against three Ichorids in the grave and Griz in play with a horde of zombies by his side? It has never happened to me, nor will it EVER happen, therefore Flayer sucks and I will never play that crap.

[raikenxy]

I'm not running any targets maindeck since I'm aiming for maximum consistency. If I flip my deck with Griz there is absolutely no reason to win that turn since I will be destroying their hand immediately. Flayer is winmore, he always was and he always will be. If my opponent topdecks an out on the last turn, so be it. But the odds of that happening are practically nonexistent. How would they ever win against three Ichorids in the grave and Griz in play with a horde of zombies by his side? It has never happened to me, nor will it EVER happen, therefore Flayer sucks and I will never play that crap.

lol, im sorry your so offended by the suggestion. however flayer isn't winmore... he's more like "win now". I don't see any reason to let your opponent even have a turn if you could kill them there and then. Griselbrand is more win more then flayer is. If your playing in legacy I don't think you can ever say no situation will ever occur where the difference between the two is irrelevant. if your gonna run dread return flayer is your best bet, especially if your aiming for more consistency. you only need one flayer to kill them, likewise you only need one griselbrand to flip your deck. you asked for forum advice and im just giving you some, three dread return targets in the board all coming in is unnecessary. if your gonna run griselbrand just run one.

if you turn one someone it doesnt matter what your running, you have so much card advantage at that point they can't do anything. but you don't turn one all the time, dredge isn't a deck that can consistently turn one because we have no form of library manipulation outside the initial shuffle. We are at the mercy of how the cards get stacked, and if you don't turn one them even with griselbrand in the deck your still left off fighting against sideboard grave hate like before.

[HammafistRoob]

I'm not offended at all, just saying that Flayer is terrible and every list with him is not optimal. My post did kinda come off as harsh and I apologize, as that was not my intent.

The point of having 3 DR and 3 Griz to side in is to give me a much higher percentage to flip them both over with my first draw spell cast with a dredger in the yard. Flayer is winmore, and so are DR targets in general in game one. Hence why they are in the sideboard, Flayer being able to kill them in one turn DOESN'T INCREASE CONSISTENCY, it decreases it because you have less enablers in the deck. Please read the entire thread if you disagree.

[raikenxy]

I'm not offended at all, just saying that Flayer is terrible and every list with him is not optimal. My post did kinda come off as harsh and I apologize, as that was not my intent.

The point of having 3 DR and 3 Griz to side in is to give me a much higher percentage to flip them both over with my first draw spell cast with a dredger in the yard. Flayer is winmore, and so are DR targets in general in game one. Hence why they are in the sideboard, Flayer being able to kill them in one turn DOESN'T INCREASE CONSISTENCY, it decreases it because you have less enablers in the deck. Please read the entire thread if you disagree.

It's all good dude no worries. I have read the entire thread, i've been playing dredge for several years lol. I have tested quadlazer, and I'm just not in agreement with the thread lol. I don't/nor have i ever noticed a consistency difference between quadlazer and main deck dread return at all. But that's neither here nor there.

If your gonna go with 3 grizz/3 dread return your banking hard on that initial flip. I think you'd find more success just running one griselbrand and two dread return, its half the space and requires less sideboard slots that you can devote to diff draw spells if your hoping to maximize your chances turn one.

[Final Fortune]

Is it just me, or is the whole anti-hate package kinda a crap shoot? The way to play this deck is to be the aggressive player, not the reactive player. We already need ~4 specific types of cards in our opener, and adding anti-hate into the equation, we need ~5 specific card types post board.

To me, this stands out as terrible strategic gaming. I'm really not too sure what the answer is, but we all know dredge only does well when people are skimping on their gy hate big time. What does this tell us? It tells us that when there's gy hate everywhere, this deck suffers. It also tells us that the anti-hate plan people apply simply doesn't work, or at least not as much as we would hope.

It makes me feel like we are wasting our sideboard. Maybe there is an answer somewhere in this giant cardpool that just hasn't been dug up yet. I just know the idea of dredge is to be the least bit of interactive as possible, and playing reactive cards simply doesn't help reach that goal. It may be that we need free reactive cards so were not spending our whole turn trying to remove their hate. Idk, is anyone else having similar thoughts?

Regarding hate, in the case of Surgical Extraction, Relic of Progenitus or Deathrite Shaman, I think the deck should avoid playing "answers" and should instead be playing cards that give the deck more resiliency i.e. Ashen Ghouls, Nether Shadows and Dread Returns vs Surgicial Extraction, Tireless Tribes vs Relic of Progenitus and Firestorm vs Deathrite Shaman etc. But if you're talking about Rest in Peace, and to a lesser extent Grafdigger's Cage, I think you should instead be playing cards that let you disrupt your opponent so you can deal with the hate pre-emptively while doubling down on combo, I usually just play 3xThoughtseize vs Miracles, Death&Taxes or Goblins/w and either take their Rest in Peace, their Brainstorm or their one drop and play pro-actively.

[Minosse]

I know what you mean, and it does suck to be cold to RiP, Cage, and the like. I'm thinking of really focusing on games 1&3, basically conceding the fact if they land hate in game 2, I probably have no board presence or answers to said hate.

When it comes time for game 3 though, I'm hoping to just outspeed their hate. Mainly by exploding on turn1 and stripping their hand. I think it's doable, just not quite sure how at the moment. I'm gonna try boarding 3 DR and 3 Grizz', and go from there. I have a big tourney coming on 10/12 so I've got a little less than a month to prepare. It'll be my first "real" tournament in a long time since my last SCG doesn't really count. I played an untested, untuned pile of crap that was handed to me the day before the event and I still managed a winning record(it wasn't Dredge).

Another idea I've been thinking of trying is to side in FoW and a few supplemental blue spells ala Gitaxian Probe, which speeds us up quite a bit. I've been rereading Feldman's article "The Dark Art of Dredge Fu" an incredible amount of times. I really think he could have the right idea, even though it's a bit dated I think the principle behind his thoughts stands true as far as I've noticed. Anti-hate just sucks imo, and FoW is unlikely to change my perception on that but I wanna test it regardless. I do, however, have high hopes on the triple DR, triple Grizz plan. Any other innovative ideas I should try?

EDIT- This is the board I'm gonna start testing soon. It is very strange, but the current configuration isn't impressing me and I'm trying to shake things up. Bear with me, please.

3 Dread Return
3 Griselbrand
3 Winds of Change
3 Firestorm
2 Ashen Rider
1 Cabal Therapy


I agree completely.
I play a (LED) quadlaser list with -1 ichorid +1 DR, which I really think is the perfect list at the moment.

My doubt is how to play G2.
I think that we have 2 choices:

We side-in DR + reanimation targets (+ lotus petal?): my doubt is that if they find "RiP or RoP" and we scoop they will mulligan aggressively on game 3 (on the draw) to find them again, and without 4 Claims to side-in this could be a problem.
We side-in nature's claim / firestorm / ichorid+ashen ghoul on g2: I prefer this option. G2 will probably be a longer game, I will DDD or firestorm against blue decks while trying to see as much hate as possible to avoid traps. Then on g3 I will probably switch sideboard and try to explode with DR + reanimation target (+ lotus petal?). On G3 cabals will be better because I will know what to name.

My current sb:
4 nature's claim
3 firestorm
4 lotus petal
1 dread return
2 FKZ / Griz / Flayer / Ashen Rider
1 Ichorid

My doubts:

Which is the better between option for G2? I personally prefer option 2 atm but it requires more sb slots than just going for DR on G2 and G3, but I really hate to have an "auto scoop" vs random hate.
I'm thinking about lotus petal or Street Wrath to further explode on G3. Petal let you avoid daze, while SW is very good against DRS activation on dredger. Do you think they are worth it?
Which reanimation target is generally the best? I'm thinking about using 2 different targets, unless I will find Ashen Rider + cabal totally awesome.


Thanks,
ML

[Anusien]

3 Dread Return
3 Griselbrand
3 Winds of Change
3 Firestorm
2 Ashen Rider
1 Cabal Therapy

Winds of Change is kind of embarrassing with Lion's Eye Diamond.


I think that we have 2 choices:

We side-in DR + reanimation targets (+ lotus petal?): my doubt is that if they find "RiP or RoP" and we scoop they will mulligan aggressively on game 3 (on the draw) to find them again, and without 4 Claims to side-in this could be a problem.
We side-in nature's claim / firestorm / ichorid+ashen ghoul on g2: I prefer this option. G2 will probably be a longer game, I will DDD or firestorm against blue decks while trying to see as much hate as possible to avoid traps. Then on g3 I will probably switch sideboard and try to explode with DR + reanimation target (+ lotus petal?). On G3 cabals will be better because I will know what to name.

My current sb:
4 nature's claim
3 firestorm
4 lotus petal
1 dread return
2 FKZ / Griz / Flayer / Ashen Rider
1 Ichorid

My doubts:

Which is the better between option for G2? I personally prefer option 2 atm but it requires more sb slots than just going for DR on G2 and G3, but I really hate to have an "auto scoop" vs random hate.
I'm thinking about lotus petal or Street Wrath to further explode on G3. Petal let you avoid daze, while SW is very good against DRS activation on dredger. Do you think they are worth it?
Which reanimation target is generally the best? I'm thinking about using 2 different targets, unless I will find Ashen Rider + cabal totally awesome.

A couple of things here. The first is that you don't lose to just a single Relic of Progenitus or Tormod's Crypt. And Nature's Claim/Ancient Grudge aren't really effective at fighting this card anyway. Rest in Peace, sure, it's hard to fight.

Anyway, I don't think sideboarding is as structured and as rigid as you think. Vintage Dredge occasionally did this thing where they would win game 1, not sideboard game 2 and see what hate the opponent brought in, because bringing in the wrong tools is worse than not sideboarding at all.
Sometimes I don't bring in Elesh Norn at all. When I bring Elesh Norn in, I don't bring the second Dread Return in. I would only board in FKZ/Flayer against combo decks, where I would bring the second DR in. I would only bring in Ashen Rider against prison style decks, where I would usually bring in the Griselbrand as well. But I actually cut Angel of Despair from my sideboard because I believe Griselbrand + Nature's Claim does effectively the same thing.
I can't imagine a matchup where I both want to bring in the Ichorid and have room for the second one.

Against aggro decks I bring in some Firestorms and maybe an Elesh Norn. Against combo decks I bring in the Griselbrand, the FKZ, and the second DR. Against prison decks I bring in the bounce/removal, the Griselbrand and sometimes the second DR. I only bring in bounce/removal against other decks if I suspect something in particular.

[HammafistRoob]

1) Winds of Change is kind of embarrassing with Lion's Eye Diamond.

2) Rest in Peace, sure, it's hard to fight.

3) Vintage Dredge occasionally did this thing where they would win game 1, not sideboard game 2 and see what hate the opponent brought in, because bringing in the wrong tools is worse than not sideboarding at all.

1) Yeah I know, I've been boarding the LEDs out when the Winds come in. Still no conclusive results with the testing though.

2) Rest in Peace is pretty easy to overcome unless the have the nuts hand. Like "counter your first two spells, RiP" type crap. Miracles doesn't usually pack that much early countermagic so this scenario has been pretty rare for me. Sometimes though, an early Terminus followed by RiP is just as painful.

3) This is true, I played Dredge in Vintage back in like '06-'07 and I literally never sideboarded for game two. I won a lot of them anyway do to the sheer power of the deck.


1) I agree completely.
I play a (LED) quadlaser list with -1 ichorid +1 DR, which I really think is the perfect list at the moment.

2) My doubt is how to play G2.
I think that we have 2 choices:

We side-in DR + reanimation targets (+ lotus petal?): my doubt is that if they find "RiP or RoP" and we scoop they will mulligan aggressively on game 3 (on the draw) to find them again, and without 4 Claims to side-in this could be a problem.

3) We side-in nature's claim / firestorm / ichorid+ashen ghoul on g2: I prefer this option. G2 will probably be a longer game, I will DDD or firestorm against blue decks while trying to see as much hate as possible to avoid traps.

4) Then on g3 I will probably switch sideboard and try to explode with DR + reanimation target (+ lotus petal?). On G3 cabals will be better because I will know what to name.

My current sb:
4 nature's claim
3 firestorm
4 lotus petal
1 dread return
2 FKZ / Griz / Flayer / Ashen Rider
1 Ichorid


5) Which is the better between option for G2? I personally prefer option 2 atm but it requires more sb slots than just going for DR on G2 and G3, but I really hate to have an "auto scoop" vs random hate.

6) I'm thinking about lotus petal or Street Wraith to further explode on G3. Petal let you avoid daze, while SW is very good against DRS activation on dredger. Do you think they are worth it?

7) Which reanimation target is generally the best? I'm thinking about using 2 different targets, unless I will find Ashen Rider + cabal totally awesome.
[/LIST]

Thanks,
ML

1) My only gripe with quadlazer is that they clearly don't run enough lands. Right now I'm at 14 lands and am thinking about moving up to 15, bu I'm still unsure at this point.

2) Like Anusien said, we don't scoop to any hate -even if we didn't sideboard at all- except RiP. Playing through hate is more likely than one might think. If they mulligan aggressively to try and find it, chances are that the rest of their hand is crap. OR, if they do find it and have a good hand(quite unlikely) the chances of us having Natures Claim for it are very low. Thinking back on all the times I mulled a perfectly fine hand because it didn't have anti-hate, and ended up not being able to do anything, I'm about 100% positive that I've lost more games because of my own siding plan(the one everyone uses) than I won because of it. It's a pipe dream to beat blue decks postboard if they have a god hand, because your NClaim is going to be countered anyway.

3) It really comes down to knowing the metagame, and what hate each deck brings to the table. I've found Ashen Ghoul to be bad and unneeded, but maybe that's just me.

4) The problem with Lotus Petal is what you are taking out for it, is probably better. I would prefer Street Wraith over it, but I haven't played him in a long time so I can't be sure if he's worth it.

5) Like I said, you almost never auto scoop to random hate. I've been running my exact maindeck against a few Decks to Beat with their sideboards, and I have a pretty good record so far. They need to have ALL the things in their hand to stand a chance.

6) See 4)

7) It really depends on what your goal is, and what you think you'll be playing against. Iona for combo, Ashen Rider for Enchantress & Ensnaring Bridge type nonsense, Griselbrand to try and speed you up against certain shenanigans. I don't like Flayer, FKZ, or Elesh Norn because I think they are completely unnecessary. The only matchups where they can help is Elves and the mirror, but even then Iona or Griz can accomplish the same thing.

[JPoJohnson]

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
3 Unmask

Still my favourite sideboard for Dredge.

Edit: It was run by Jason Bulkowski for about a year+ and he also had Sun Titan in the main board for recursion of the combo pieces and 2 Dread Returns. It was a tight little package that catches many unaware. (http://mtgtop8.com/compare?l=_226071_224384_218115_)

[Anusien]

1) Yeah I know, I've been boarding the LEDs out when the Winds come in. Still no conclusive results with the testing though.
I've only ever considered bringing in Winds of Change against combo decks. And I'd rather have Lion's Eye Diamond than Winds of Change there. If you want an extra draw effect, the next best one is probably something awful like Hapless Researcher.

[P-E]

i think street wraith is good in winds of change role
good against combo as it speeds up more and good against DRS saving a dredger

[Smea.gol.lum]

Sideboarding:
In my limited testing sessions I didn't like Ashen Ghoul too much either, because it happened far too often that I didn't have a land to pay B (either because my land got wasted in most cases or I only had a Coliseum, I'm playing 14 lands atm for reference).
I like Nether Shadow more because it's free and can easily be sacrificed for Dread Return post board.

I'm currently testing 4 Unmask in my sideboard in order to bring it in against decks g2 where I don't know what hate is coming, but I haven't made enough games yet to be able to evaluate it.

Another possibility is to board in Ingot Chewer blindly g2 against decks that don't run Rest in Peace.
It has the big advantage of not being susceptible to Spell Pierce, anwers Cage, other artifact hate and equipment and can generate tokens at least in combination with Bridge from Below if it turns out to be unneeded.

What I also haven't tested yet is boarding in Abrupt Decay as an uncounterable catch-all answer (except for Leyline which is pretty much nonexistent), however it would require us to run at least 16 lands postboard. I fear that it's too unreliable regarding the fact that there are only 12 coloured sources available.

[Minosse]

...

1) My only gripe with quadlazer is that they clearly don't run enough lands. Right now I'm at 14 lands and am thinking about moving up to 15, bu I'm still unsure at this point.

...


2) Like Anusien said, we don't scoop to any hate -even if we didn't sideboard at all- except RiP. Playing through hate is more likely than one might think. If they mulligan aggressively to try and find it, chances are that the rest of their hand is crap. OR, if they do find it and have a good hand(quite unlikely) the chances of us having Natures Claim for it are very low. Thinking back on all the times I mulled a perfectly fine hand because it didn't have anti-hate, and ended up not being able to do anything, I'm about 100% positive that I've lost more games because of my own siding plan(the one everyone uses) than I won because of it. It's a pipe dream to beat blue decks postboard if they have a god hand, because your NClaim is going to be countered anyway.
..

Thanks for your answer.

Can I ask which is your maindeck and how do you generally sideboard on G2 depending on the opponent's deck?


Thanks,
ML

[Anusien]

Sideboarding:
In my limited testing sessions I didn't like Ashen Ghoul too much either, because it happened far too often that I didn't have a land to pay B (either because my land got wasted in most cases or I only had a Coliseum, I'm playing 14 lands atm for reference).
I like Nether Shadow more because it's free and can easily be sacrificed for Dread Return post board.

I'm currently testing 4 Unmask in my sideboard in order to bring it in against decks g2 where I don't know what hate is coming, but I haven't made enough games yet to be able to evaluate it.

Another possibility is to board in Ingot Chewer blindly g2 against decks that don't run Rest in Peace.
It has the big advantage of not being susceptible to Spell Pierce, anwers Cage, other artifact hate and equipment and can generate tokens at least in combination with Bridge from Below if it turns out to be unneeded.

What I also haven't tested yet is boarding in Abrupt Decay as an uncounterable catch-all answer (except for Leyline which is pretty much nonexistent), however it would require us to run at least 16 lands postboard. I fear that it's too unreliable regarding the fact that there are only 12 coloured sources available.
I would only bring Nether Shadow in against multiple Extraction decks. Those decks don't really run Wasteland.

Won't you be on the draw game 2 and not be able to Unmask their Crypt/Relic?

Ingot Chewer is a fine card against Cage. It made my short list of "cards that might eventually get side boarded in." But I can't imagine wanting an answer to Crypt/Relic.

Abrupt Decay is interesting. It's probably worse than Serenity, which is generally too slow and conditional to see sideboard play.

Anyway, you seem to feel this need to bring in answers to all hate cards. What terrible cards do you have in the main deck that you can sideboard without disrupting the deck? The easiest way to beat Crypt and such is to just sandbag draw spells. The easiest way to beat Cage/RiP is to be fast enough to overwhelm them before they find it.

[Smea.gol.lum]

I'm playing the 14 land version with 3 Ichorids and no Dread Return maindeck.

I wouldn't bring in Nether Shadow's neither if I knew that they only boarded in Crypts/Relics, but the problem is: How shall I know?

It would be nice if we could collect some telling cards of the opponents, which give a hint at what they could board in against us.
For example: If I see Snapcaster Mage or Young Pyromancer, I will board in the Shadows and Dread Returns because it is likely that they play Extractions as their graveyard hate of choice.
I always board in the Claims against decks with white, because Rest in Piece is THE hate card you can run when you play white.
Feel free to add some more points to the list ;)

Perhaps I'm just overboarding and my fear of hate cards is unreasonably big :P

The problem I see with the plan of exploding in the face of Rest in Piece is that you don't always have the nuts and can go off before turn 2, at least that 's the case in my testing. Once they land Rest in Peace it isn't likely to come back from that.

[tyriion]

I'm playing the 14 land version with 3 Ichorids and no Dread Return maindeck.
The problem I see with the plan of exploding in the face of Rest in Piece is that you don't always have the nuts and can go off before turn 2, at least that 's the case in my testing. Once they land Rest in Peace it isn't likely to come back from that.

But if they drop a RiP you are unlikely to recover anyway, unless you drew into a nice hand and they have nothing backing up that RiP. I for one haven't successfully closed out a game after destroying a RiP (Usually claim gets countered or they drop a faster clock right after it). I have won games with tokens generated before RiP came down however.

If you win game 1 you have 1 turn to go off game 2, that's pretty bad yes. But the only way you beat a RiP on T2 is having a claim and open mana, so you have to skip your T1 on that plan. And they might not even drop RiP right away. The other plan is just do your best game 2 and else you have at least two turns in game 3. And they would need a fast RiP again. While it happens it won't happen all the time. I like my chances without claim better than with it, as I won't have to board in extra lands just on the off chance I might need them. That makes the deck unstable and you might just lose to a solitary Gheist.

[Anusien]

I don't think "not casting any spells so you don't get beat by the Crypt aspect" is how you beat Rest in Peace.

[Final Fortune]

I'm playing the 14 land version with 3 Ichorids and no Dread Return maindeck.

I wouldn't bring in Nether Shadow's neither if I knew that they only boarded in Crypts/Relics, but the problem is: How shall I know?

It would be nice if we could collect some telling cards of the opponents, which give a hint at what they could board in against us.
For example: If I see Snapcaster Mage or Young Pyromancer, I will board in the Shadows and Dread Returns because it is likely that they play Extractions as their graveyard hate of choice.
I always board in the Claims against decks with white, because Rest in Piece is THE hate card you can run when you play white.
Feel free to add some more points to the list ;)

Perhaps I'm just overboarding and my fear of hate cards is unreasonably big :P

The problem I see with the plan of exploding in the face of Rest in Piece is that you don't always have the nuts and can go off before turn 2, at least that 's the case in my testing. Once they land Rest in Peace it isn't likely to come back from that.

I'm pretty sure boarding Nature's Claim is just worse than boarding Thoughtseize vs any deck playing White, mainly because if they don't draw Rest in Peace then Nature's Claim is worthless while Thoughtseize is going to either strip their Thalia, Zenith, Ooze, Shaman, counter or cantrip etc, any "answer" that doesn't inherently accelerate the deck (shit like Firestorm or Darkblast that kill a creature and discard a dredger or dredge) or deccelerate your opponent is going to be pretty suspect fwiw.

RIPs main problem is that it costs 2, the only card you actually need a direct answer for is Cage, and nobody really plays that and even if they did they don't play it in sizeable numbers.

[HammafistRoob]

Thanks for your answer.

Can I ask which is your maindeck and how do you generally sideboard on G2 depending on the opponent's deck?


Thanks,
ML

//LANDS-14
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

//CREATURES-22
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp

//SPELLS-24
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamon

//SIDEBOARD-15
2 Dread Return
2 Iona Shield of Emeria
2 Ashen Ghoul
2 Chain of Vapor
4 Nature's Claim
1 Putrid Imp
2 Ancient Grudge


This is where I'm at right now, the only thing set in stone for me is the main deck. If you read a page or so back I brought up how I really feel like the sideboard is a giant waste of effort. In my opinion there is no effective antihate really available, and I've hit a brick wall as far as innovations go. I can't really give you sideboarding advice as of now because I'm still trying to figure out what I like best, and I have extremely minimal time for testing at the moment.

The cards in bold are the ones I hate to bring in, because the only card they can even answer efficiently is Leyline of the Void, which nobody plays. Against Crypt/Cage/Spellbomb I found the best way to beat it is by simply not bringing in answers. I do usually bring in the Dread Returns and the Grudges, that's it. The Ionas have proven to be pretty versatile against a lot of decks I expect to face like Elves, TES, ANT, High Tide, and even Reanimator. The Ghouls and Dread Returns come in against Extraction. Against decks that aren't very fast I usually take out Breakthroughs first, maybe an Ichorid, then LEDs. It's important to not dilute the deck.

I've been having decent results with NO sideboarding at all. I won a lot of games on the draw, post board, against Shardless BUG. Out of 20 games I won 13, which is pretty good considering the BUG list had 4 FoW, 4 Thoughtseize, 2 Flusterstorm, 4 Deathrite, 3 Nihil Spellbomb, and a Maelstrom Pulse. So against those decks, I'm pretty comfortable just not bringing anything in.

[Que]

Its a concept tried and true. GO FEARLESS!!

[HammafistRoob]

Yah that's the option that I'm seriously leaning towards, goin to a GPT to try and pick up some duals and 3 byes on the 12th. Wish me luck, I'm gonna need it because I'm very rusty when it comes to Legacy seeing as there's no decent Legacy scene here anymore. It died off along with half my team lol.

[Final Fortune]

Do you have any thoughts on Iona vs Griselbrand + Ray of Revelation for the Show&Tell + Leyline of Sanctity match up? I usually find Iona is a little lackluster vs RUG and Blade compared to Griselbrand, where boarding Ray of Revelation by itself vs Show&Tell isn't that big of a commitment and it's fairly useful vs random shit like Ghostly Prison.

I think 4 Breakthrough is too many, that card is really "gold fishy," and I don't think you should ever SB in draw spells unless you're on the draw and can use your DDD strategy.

Trying to answer Rest in Peace is a losing battle, unlike Grafdigger's Cage, the problem with removing Rest in Peace from the board is that more often than not it's damage has already been done - you've lost your graveyard regardless.

[Juicy Karaage]

Its a concept tried and true. GO FEARLESS!!

Seeing that i almost never board in my 3 Chain of Vapor, yes, I do agree that it's time to go fearless

[HammafistRoob]

Do you have any thoughts on Iona vs Griselbrand + Ray of Revelation for the Show&Tell + Leyline of Sanctity match up? I usually find Iona is a little lackluster vs RUG and Blade compared to Griselbrand, where boarding Ray of Revelation by itself vs Show&Tell isn't that big of a commitment and it's fairly useful vs random shit like Ghostly Prison.

I think 4 Breakthrough is too many, that card is really "gold fishy," and I don't think you should ever SB in draw spells unless you're on the draw and can use your DDD strategy.

Trying to answer Rest in Peace is a losing battle, unlike Grafdigger's Cage, the problem with removing Rest in Peace from the board is that more often than not it's damage has already been done - you've lost your graveyard regardless.

I only want Iona because I'm positive there is going to be Goblins, Elves, AnT, TES, Omnitell and probably even High Tide & Reanimator at this event. To me, her versatility is pretty astounding just considering the matchups where she is super strong. I probably wouldn't bring in any DR targets against RUG or Blade, because I think Grave Troll does a good enough job there and I want to side out the least amount of cards possible. In every matchup.

It's funny you bring up the Breakthrough count, because I've been thinking about going to 3 in favor of the 4th Imp, which would also free up a board slot. I'm not sure if I like Ray of Revelation much, it can kill random stuff like Moat, Humility, Ghostly Prison, Sneak Attack, and even Rest in Peace (although your gy still gets exiled) but it seems to low impact to really be justifiable.

I've also been doing a lot of brainstorming on Thoughtseize as a preemptive answer against not only RiP, but other combo decks(elves included). Just slowing them down for a turn or two could prove to be very beneficial. With 8 or maybe even 9 discard effects, this should be quite possible. Against RiP decks, I'd probably board the discard out if we go to game 3 and I happen to be on the play (most likely). It seems like it's our best chance game two because even if we explode on turn 1, we still have to hit at least a Narcomoeba and a Therapy.

I think going Fearless has some pretty big benefits in this meta. Trying to play reactive against Deathrite decks that pack countermagic an additional hate in their sideboards only slows us down. Which in turn makes Deathrite a VERY relevant threat. I think it's pretty hard to hold back draw spells and such just hoping for the right cards to come together off the top of our deck, because it just gives our opponent time to sculpt a better hand with their superior cantrips and draw power. Testing against BUG has taught me beating a Shaman has to come quick, sitting back simply gives them time to get countermagic up. Or worse, a Crypt effect.

EDIT- 600th post WOOT!!!

[indefinite.soul]

If I were to go fearless, I'd do something like this:

Main: I agree here: Quadlazer -1 Ichorid +1 Dread Return.

Sideboard:
4 Firestorm (Deathrite Shaman, Scavenging Ooze, Mid range, Beatdown)
4 Lotus Petal (Race combo)
1 Ancient Grudge (Umezawa's Jitte, Batterskull, etc)
1 Legacy Weapon (Or whatever with the same hability. Painter-Stone, High Tide, etc)
1 Ichorid (Mid range, Beatdown)
1 Dread Return (Targets)
1 Ashen Rider (New and improved Bald Angel. Lands, Blazing Archon, Enchantments, well, pretty much anything)
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite (Elves, Goblins, Merfolks, etc)
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria (High Tide, Burn, Combo, etc)

Still debating on Firestorm, though. If I'd remove them, I'd probably replace for something against Mid range as well: +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Tarnished Citadel +2 Ashen Ghoul.

[Minosse]

I also want to go fearless in G2, and eventually board Claim in G3, but only in case I lost G2 due to RiP or something similar.
But I think that in case the opponent does not have counters, it is better to become faster to explode on turn 1.
For example, on a recent tournament I won a G2 vs maverick with turn 1 breakthrough + led, cabal for RiP...
I'm thinking about something like:
-4 gemstone mine + 4 lotus petal
-1 golgari thug, -1 careful study -1 putrid imp +1 dread return +2 reanimation targets

My fear is that every turn that passes on G2 it becomes riskier that they will find hate, so probably the better bet is just trying to explode.

If they have counters it's stupid to try to use led or breakthrough and just lose, so I will probably try the "safer route":
-4 LED
-4 breakthrough
+1 ichorid
(+ ashen ghoul + paradise?)
+4 firestorm

and maybe DDD on turn 1.

[indefinite.soul]

-4 gemstone mine + 4 lotus petal

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree here. There is no reason for trading 4 Lotus Petal for 4 Gemstone Mine. Ultimately you want to be able to have 2 manas on turn 1, so what you just did is placing a worst version of Gemstone Mine in (only one counter).

[Minosse]

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree here. There is no reason for trading 4 Lotus Petal for 4 Gemstone Mine. Ultimately you want to be able to have 2 manas on turn 1, so what you just did is placing a worst version of Gemstone Mine in (only one counter).

Yeah, I'm unsure what to sb-out for petals and I've a tourney this saturday! Suggestions?

I'm also thinking about this sb:
3 firestorm
3 thoughtseize
3 petal
1 dread return
2 ashen rider
2 nether shadow
1 ancient grudge

g2 I can board:
-4 led
-4 break
+3 thought
+2 nether
+2/3 firestorm
+0/1 grudge

While g3:
-1 putrid
-1 careful
-1 thug
-3 X???
+1 dread
+2 ashen
+3 petal

I want to try with ashen rider as single reanimation target because it seems to be the one working best on average, and 2 give me a "decent" possibility to have an answer vs turn 3 omniscience.

[HammafistRoob]

If I were to go fearless, I'd do something like this:

Main: I agree here: Quadlazer -1 Ichorid +1 Dread Return.

Sideboard:
4 Firestorm (Deathrite Shaman, Scavenging Ooze, Mid range, Beatdown)
4 Lotus Petal (Race combo)
1 Ancient Grudge (Umezawa's Jitte, Batterskull, etc)
1 Legacy Weapon (Or whatever with the same hability. Painter-Stone, High Tide, etc)
1 Ichorid (Mid range, Beatdown)
1 Dread Return (Targets)
1 Ashen Rider (New and improved Bald Angel. Lands, Blazing Archon, Enchantments, well, pretty much anything)
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite (Elves, Goblins, Merfolks, etc)
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria (High Tide, Burn, Combo, etc)

Still debating on Firestorm, though. If I'd remove them, I'd probably replace for something against Mid range as well: +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Tarnished Citadel +2 Ashen Ghoul.

I would play Memory's Journey instead of Legacy Weapon, although neither of them are good against Tide because they just make you draw your deck nowadays.

I've decided against Firestorm for the time being. I just think it requires you to side out to many cards. Also, notice how Iona is just as good, if not better, than Elesh in the matchups where you want the Cenobite.

[indefinite.soul]

I would play Memory's Journey instead of Legacy Weapon, although neither of them are good against Tide because they just make you draw your deck nowadays.

But then there is Painter-Stone and rogues. But yeah, the card is arguable.


I've decided against Firestorm for the time being. I just think it requires you to side out to many cards.

The problem about not running Firestorm is that there are many Tier 1 decks in the format right now that exploit DRS. BUG, JUND, Stoneblade...
We can always consider Running a 2-2 Split of Darkblast and Thug, though (and forgeting about Ooze).


Also, notice how Iona is just as good, if not better, than Elesh in the matchups where you want the Cenobite.

Iona may note save you if your opponent has a lot of elves or goblin at the table. But I can't say Elesh is a MUST have.

[tyriion]

Firestorm is for putting stuff in the GY against blue decks or wiping out tribal board presence. It's not to combat DRS. A lone DRS won't stop you unless you have kept a sketchy hand or are just very unlucky. Just don't run DR if you are facing too many DRS.

[HammafistRoob]

But then there is Painter-Stone and rogues. But yeah, the card is arguable.

The problem about not running Firestorm is that there are many Tier 1 decks in the format right now that exploit DRS. BUG, JUND, Stoneblade...
We can always consider Running a 2-2 Split of Darkblast and Thug, though (and forgeting about Ooze).

Iona may note save you if your opponent has a lot of elves or goblin at the table. But I can't say Elesh is a MUST have.

Memory's Journey is pretty nuts against Painter as well because it gives you one more turn to bring back all your Ichorids and hopefully finish them off. Their fundamental turn is a little later than ours so this should usually be enough.

I agree Iona might not stop goblins every time, especially if they have a Vial, but she stops Elves dead in their tracks. All they have is mana producers, the only threats they could possibly have are Deathrites, which we can easily outrace at that point.

I agree with the above that Firestorm isn't really that great of an answer to Shaman and Scooze. It can work, yeah, but those cards are too slow more often than not. Or they can be overwhelmed if we have a good hand.

I really don't like Darkblast in Dredge, dredge 3 is a lot worse than dredge 4. It's also a very weak answer to Shaman, I find it's easiest to just have two dredgers go to your gy at the same time and hopefully dredge into more gas.

[Final Fortune]

Firestorm is for putting stuff in the GY against blue decks or wiping out tribal board presence. It's not to combat DRS. A lone DRS won't stop you unless you have kept a sketchy hand or are just very unlucky. Just don't run DR if you are facing too many DRS.

Yeah that's kind of BS considering no one ever played Firestorm MD before Deathrite Shaman was printed, I think the purpose of the card is pretty clear.

[indefinite.soul]

Firestorm is for putting stuff in the GY against blue decks or wiping out tribal board presence. It's not to combat DRS. A lone DRS won't stop you unless you have kept a sketchy hand or are just very unlucky. Just don't run DR if you are facing too many DRS.

So any hand that you won't go nuts you call sketchy and unlucky? I must be very unluck, because the way I see it, any hand without LED (or petal) to enable discarding and drawing at T1 (therefore placing lots of cards in graveyard), would require 2 dredgers for you to be able to dredge the following turn against a T1 DRS.


Memory's Journey is pretty nuts against Painter as well.

For me the problem about Memory's Journey is that it's not static, you have to have the rainbow land untapped to save you, and holding yourself back to keep it that way, may result in your graveyard not being able to swing for the win the next turn. But as I said, it IS a viable option.


I really don't like Darkblast in Dredge, dredge 3 is a lot worse than dredge 4. It's also a very weak answer to Shaman, I find it's easiest to just have two dredgers go to your gy at the same time and hopefully dredge into more gas.

I agree it's worse than dredge 4. Besides, that was me trying not to disagree completely with you...=p Of course it's weak, since DRS can remove it before you dredge to your hand and cast on it. I forgot that while trying not to sound like a douche.

[Kap'n Cook]

For me the problem about Memory's Journey is that it's not static, you have to have the rainbow land untapped to save you, and holding yourself back to keep it that way, may result in your graveyard not being able to swing for the win the next turn. But as I said, it IS a viable option.



You cast it during your upkeep after getting milled.

[HammafistRoob]

I agree it's worse than dredge 4. Besides, that was me trying not to disagree completely with you...=p Of course it's weak, since DRS can remove it before you dredge to your hand and cast on it. I forgot that while trying not to sound like a douche.

Haha don't worry about sounding like a dbag. As long as you're not flamming anyone, it's all gravy.

I said earlier that my main gripe with Firestorm is that it forces you to side out too many cards in my opinion. It's a fine answer against Shaman if that's what you're most worried about. I'm of the opinion that we don't need specific answers to him because he hasn't really been that scary for me. Or at least not as scary as RiP when I'm on the draw.

[tyriion]

So any hand that you won't go nuts you call sketchy and unlucky? I must be very unluck, because the way I see it, any hand without LED (or petal) to enable discarding and drawing at T1 (therefore placing lots of cards in graveyard), would require 2 dredgers for you to be able to dredge the following turn against a T1 DRS.

If we're talking specifically about Firestorm, you will still need to either put 2 dredgers in the GY while casting it against DRS, or keep stuff back. Else they'll just respond to the damage on the stack by removing your single dredger.

If you were just talking about hands in general consider this; if there's a single DRS opposite you and you don't have 2 dredgers there has to be other stuff in your hand. That other stuff better be draw spells to find your answers (in this case dredgers as I won't board in firestorm specifically to combat DRS). If you've got a hand full of land and Narcs or maybe even just some Ichorids and Therapies I call that hand sketchy yes.

And of course I know you can get unlucky. DRS can stop you if you just can't find a good enough hand in mulligans or even if you brick your draws. DRS is better than Squire after all. But DRS just doesn't need a specific sideboard card as the deck is able to beat it on it's own most of the time. So you are better off not diluting your deck if the only thing you face is DRS. Of course DRS decks often play Scooze or extract effects, so you will sideboard anyway. But not Firestorm specifically for DRS.

[Final Fortune]

So any hand that you won't go nuts you call sketchy and unlucky? I must be very unluck, because the way I see it, any hand without LED (or petal) to enable discarding and drawing at T1 (therefore placing lots of cards in graveyard), would require 2 dredgers for you to be able to dredge the following turn against a T1 DRS.



For me the problem about Memory's Journey is that it's not static, you have to have the rainbow land untapped to save you, and holding yourself back to keep it that way, may result in your graveyard not being able to swing for the win the next turn. But as I said, it IS a viable option.



I agree it's worse than dredge 4. Besides, that was me trying not to disagree completely with you...=p Of course it's weak, since DRS can remove it before you dredge to your hand and cast on it. I forgot that while trying not to sound like a douche.

I agree, people in this thread are talking like they've never seen a Deathrite Shaman backed up by a Force of Will - no way you go into a large tournament without Firestorm in your 75 if you want to top 8, and recent results for Dredge bare that out.

Darkblast isn't for Deathrite Shaman, it's for Peacekeeper.

[Anusien]

I agree, people in this thread are talking like they've never seen a Deathrite Shaman backed up by a Force of Will - no way you go into a large tournament without Firestorm in your 75 if you want to top 8, and recent results for Dredge bare that out.
I'm not actually sure the data show that in the way you think. Do we know for a fact that people with comparable lists and comparable skill are attempting to do so without Firestorm? In other words, we may have correlation, but I don't think we have causation.


Darkblast isn't for Deathrite Shaman, it's for Peacekeeper.
I don't really expect to see Peacekeeper in an SCG Open. I think part of playing Dredge is the necessity to be able to say, "Okay buddy, you got it." when your opponent pulls out Peacekeeper or Leyline/Helm in game 1 or whatever.

[Final Fortune]

I'm not actually sure the data show that in the way you think. Do we know for a fact that people with comparable lists and comparable skill are attempting to do so without Firestorm? In other words, we may have correlation, but I don't think we have causation.


I don't really expect to see Peacekeeper in an SCG Open. I think part of playing Dredge is the necessity to be able to say, "Okay buddy, you got it." when your opponent pulls out Peacekeeper or Leyline/Helm in game 1 or whatever.

Maybe, maybe not; all I know is Firestorm was never a MD card in Dredge before Deathrite Shaman, so Deathrite Shaman is clearly the point of Firestorm in the MD as well as in the SB as far as I'm concerned. Judging from my own play testing, I wouldn't go to a tournament without it because it's generically good vs every fair, non blue deck post-board and barring Goblins and Affinity they all pretty much play Deathrite Shaman ironically.

I don't think you should compare Peacekeeper and Leyline, mainly because Peacekeeper is a card that you don't have to scoop to for an invest of 1 card in your deck that you can essentially draw 6 for while not being dead whenever you actually draw it. I usually play the 3/1 Thug/Blast split as a default because the card is just generally useful.

[DarkJester]

Maybe, maybe not; all I know is Firestorm was never a MD card in Dredge before Deathrite Shaman, so Deathrite Shaman is clearly the point of Firestorm in the MD as well as in the SB as far as I'm concerned. Judging from my own play testing, I wouldn't go to a tournament without it because it's generically good vs every fair, non blue deck post-board and barring Goblins and Affinity they all pretty much play Deathrite Shaman ironically.

I don't think you should compare Peacekeeper and Leyline, mainly because Peacekeeper is a card that you don't have to scoop to for an invest of 1 card in your deck that you can essentially draw 6 for while not being dead whenever you actually draw it. I usually play the 3/1 Thug/Blast split as a default because the card is just generally useful.

Im with you here, but Firestorm saw MD-play in successfull lists during the Mental-Misstep-Ära (for other reasons obviously). I would MD 2 Firestorms nowadays if I expect a meta full of Shamans to have more outs against them. If your hand is fast, race the little elf, if not, firestorm it away and grind the Matchup out.

[Que]

No one is running MD Firestorm. And if they are I hope its not to actually combat Deathrite. I've not had issues with this card. The deck churns through itself at a pace in which the shaman cannot keep up (they can't even hit bridges). Firestorm I would say essentially eats up your Putrid Imp slot I would think which I don't like. You need the black creature for Ichorid as well as being a generally useful discard outlet in that you get to keep pitching your cards; helps a lot postboard games when you want to slow roll the cards in your hand.

I don't care that its decent against fair non blue decks because guess what the deck as whole is great against fair non blue decks without it. If anything it puts you into some kind of control deck position where you want to get the most value out of your firestorm before you wait a bit to doll it out. This is contradictory to our game plan of wanting to dredge cards as soon as possible. Not to mention the obvious nonbo with our bridges. And as someone mentioned earlier because Firestorm forces you to discard as an additional cost to play it the deathrite shaman becomes live. I still have my reservations about the card.

As for Darkblast I've tried it and its Dredge 3 has been completely lack luster. I always want the 4th Thug over it. What problematic creatures are you worried about? I would only really care about cards like Thalia because she makes the deck a bit difficult to operate without going into slow dredge mode. But you most likely wont even be able to hit that. So cards like Bob? Lackey? Elves? I just again think it puts you in a control situation. You can't make the game go long by just shooting their dudes eventually they'll find their hate cards or you'll become apprehensive in using it once you've dredge into your bridges (nonbo again).

[Anusien]

I've played a Darkblast before, but never because I actually wanted to kill things (although I've wrecked some slower Elves builds with it). Darkblast is useful at fighting through counter walls. In years past I sideboarded it against Threshold because no number of counters could stop you from Dredging if you draw it. I think that dredging that way is probably too slow to be useful against modern Delver speed Threshold decks.

[HammafistRoob]

No one is running MD Firestorm. And if they are I hope its not to actually combat Deathrite. I've not had issues with this card. The deck churns through itself at a pace in which the shaman cannot keep up (they can't even hit bridges). Firestorm I would say essentially eats up your Putrid Imp slot I would think which I don't like. You need the black creature for Ichorid as well as being a generally useful discard outlet in that you get to keep pitching your cards; helps a lot postboard games when you want to slow roll the cards in your hand.

I don't care that its decent against fair non blue decks because guess what the deck as whole is great against fair non blue decks without it. If anything it puts you into some kind of control deck position where you want to get the most value out of your firestorm before you wait a bit to doll it out. This is contradictory to our game plan of wanting to dredge cards as soon as possible. Not to mention the obvious nonbo with our bridges. And as someone mentioned earlier because Firestorm forces you to discard as an additional cost to play it the deathrite shaman becomes live. I still have my reservations about the card.

As for Darkblast I've tried it and its Dredge 3 has been completely lack luster. I always want the 4th Thug over it. What problematic creatures are you worried about? I would only really care about cards like Thalia because she makes the deck a bit difficult to operate without going into slow dredge mode. But you most likely wont even be able to hit that. So cards like Bob? Lackey? Elves? I just again think it puts you in a control situation. You can't make the game go long by just shooting their dudes eventually they'll find their hate cards or you'll become apprehensive in using it once you've dredge into your bridges (nonbo again).

I owe you a beer sir, couldn't have said it better myself(I tried a page back).

[Vlad Teppes]

Hi! it's my first post here in the source! I hope I can learn a lot from you guys!
I've seen many dredge lists and I've been playtesting it for a while, but a question allways comes to my mind...
is it worth running a single darkblast over the fourth putrid imp? I mean, it's better than replacing it over the fourth thug and it raises or dredges to 13
sorry for my bad english! It's not my native language XD

[HammafistRoob]

Welcome to The Source! Your English is good, just remember capitalization.

Having a 13th Dredger isn't necessarily bad, but it isn't very good either. It could help against Deathrite Shaman by giving you a better chance of having two dredgers to get by him. Or you could even kill a Shaman that is still sick with it, although that isn't likely to come up too often. Anusien brought up a good point a few posts up about it being an easy way to get a Dredger in your grave against blue midrange and tempo decks (as long as they have a guy out).

Having said that, what do you have against Imp? Do you feel like you could do without a stable discard outlet? In my opinion, the deck is fine with 12 Dredgers, but I wouldn't argue against someone who wanted to run a 13th. Some people have had success with only 11, or even 10, but I don't have the cajones to go that low.

[Vandalize]

Firestorm was played maindeck in the Mental Misstep era, just to let you know :d

But I feel it's really lackluster. If you're worried about Deathrite Shaman, you can always play Pithing Needle in your sideboard, which is WAY easier on the casting cost (Cephalid Coliseum can't cast Firestorm) and solves other problems like artifact hate and Scavenging Ooze.

I agree that Rest in Peace is the most difficult hate to recover, and going fearless without Nature's Claim/Wispmare can work if you mulligan well enough to either hit a fast hand or a Cabal Therapy one. You usually cut gas or draw spells for those anti-hate cards, and they force you to mulligan to really bad hands that might still lose after the hate is dealt with. Dredge by its nature is the aggressor and playing reactive anti-hate is forcing you to change your objective. That's why old-school Pithing Needles are staying in my board for now.

My list:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
3 Ichorid
3 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 Nether Shadow
SB: 2 Dread Return
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

It's been working fine in the past week, Pithing Needle is working overtime.

[Vlad Teppes]

Welcome to The Source! Your English is good, just remember capitalization.

Having a 13th Dredger isn't necessarily bad, but it isn't very good either. It could help against Deathrite Shaman by giving you a better chance of having two dredgers to get by him. Or you could even kill a Shaman that is still sick with it, although that isn't likely to come up too often. Anusien brought up a good point a few posts up about it being an easy way to get a Dredger in your grave against blue midrange and tempo decks (as long as they have a guy out).

Having said that, what do you have against Imp? Do you feel like you could do without a stable discard outlet? In my opinion, the deck is fine with 12 Dredgers, but I wouldn't argue against someone who wanted to run a 13th. Some people have had success with only 11, or even 10, but I don't have the cajones to go that low.

Thz! for the tips about darblast!
I think I like darkblast because of my local meta, it's heavily creature based (mostly tribal and delver variations), and darkblast really comes in handy against them.
I have nothing against Pimp, but as a 4 of, he's just ichorid food most of the time and I really preffer when I see something like Careful study or Faithless looting as a discard outlet in my oppening 7, I mean he's good, but I like to have something to use as an out to a troublesome creature even if it is a one of.

[Final Fortune]

No one is running MD Firestorm. And if they are I hope its not to actually combat Deathrite. I've not had issues with this card. The deck churns through itself at a pace in which the shaman cannot keep up (they can't even hit bridges). Firestorm I would say essentially eats up your Putrid Imp slot I would think which I don't like. You need the black creature for Ichorid as well as being a generally useful discard outlet in that you get to keep pitching your cards; helps a lot postboard games when you want to slow roll the cards in your hand.

I don't care that its decent against fair non blue decks because guess what the deck as whole is great against fair non blue decks without it. If anything it puts you into some kind of control deck position where you want to get the most value out of your firestorm before you wait a bit to doll it out. This is contradictory to our game plan of wanting to dredge cards as soon as possible. Not to mention the obvious nonbo with our bridges. And as someone mentioned earlier because Firestorm forces you to discard as an additional cost to play it the deathrite shaman becomes live. I still have my reservations about the card.

As for Darkblast I've tried it and its Dredge 3 has been completely lack luster. I always want the 4th Thug over it. What problematic creatures are you worried about? I would only really care about cards like Thalia because she makes the deck a bit difficult to operate without going into slow dredge mode. But you most likely wont even be able to hit that. So cards like Bob? Lackey? Elves? I just again think it puts you in a control situation. You can't make the game go long by just shooting their dudes eventually they'll find their hate cards or you'll become apprehensive in using it once you've dredge into your bridges (nonbo again).

1) Yes, people are MDing Firestorm in Dredge - see recent Top 8s
2) No, Firestorm doesn't turn Dredge into a control deck, nor would turning Dredge into a control deck be bad even if it did - you can Lightning Bolt your opponent, remove a one drop and reach Threshold with any Dredger in the deck on turn one or just DDD and clear the board next turn etc. It's no more a "nonbo" with your Bridge from Belows than it is a combo with them, you can choose to destroy your own creatures in order to create Zombie tokens or judiciously trade your Bridge from Belows for their army, - it's no more a "nonbo" with your Bridge from Belows than attacking with any creature on the board is.
3) Deathrite Shaman becomes live vs any discard effect after it loses summoning sickness, the point is to kill the Deathrite Shaman before it loses summoning sickness without sacrificing any tempo by simultaneously discarding as a cost.
4) I already said Peacekeeper, regardless it's an uncounterable discard outlet and Dredger in one card that kills a variety of annoying creatures, from unflipped Delver of Secrets to Green Suns Zenith Dryad Arbors to Grim Lavamancers to Mogg Fanatics to your own Narcomoebas and it's the best feeling in the world whenever your opponent targets it with Surgical Extraction in response to one of your draw spells. I wont fault anyone for not playing it, but it's pretty damn useful fwiw.

This deck actually uses the combat phase to win the game and has to deal with the opponent's board one way or the other. Sometimes you can deal with said board by insurmountable card advantage via draw spells and other times you can deal with it thru' a Wrath of God, neither is necessarily any better than the other. Furthermore I don't know how you can say that this deck doesn't have any problem vs Deathrite Shaman when it does, because you don't always win the coin flip vs Deathrite Shaman and you don't always draw Lion's Eye Diamond vs Deathrite Shaman, and while I don't think Deathrite Shaman is an insurmountable problem without Firestorm it's rather daft to not recognize Firestorm doesn't make Deathrite Shaman any easier to deal with in the course of a three game match.

If you want to play the "all in" game with LED games 2-3 then be my guest, try outracing Deathrite Shaman by discarding your whole hand and walk right into Surgical Extraction for the loss. I really don't know what else to say to convince you, I've been playing Dredge in Legacy for too long in real games to take the whole "ubiquitous game winning hate card has never caused me any problems" argument seriously. If you aren't making any concenssions in your MD or your SB for Deathrite Shaman, then you seriously have the wrong priorities with Dredge.

[DarkJester]

1) Yes, people are MDing Firestorm in Dredge - see recent Top 8s ... plus useful stuff...


+1 for this, Sir!

[Vlad Teppes]

Had anyone tested disruption in the sideboard? (Duress, thoughtseize, inquisition of kozilek or even Unmask)
if yes, is it good? it gives us more info about their hand and might even strip some hate or counterspell for their hand
Perhaps it's worth a shot...

[HammafistRoob]

My list:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
3 Ichorid
3 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 Nether Shadow
SB: 2 Dread Return
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

It's been working fine in the past week, Pithing Needle is working overtime.

That's the exact maindeck that I'm currently on, and it feels very strong. I've been debating on how to squeeze in the 4th Imp, possibly moving a Breakthrough or Therapy to the sideboard. Which do you all think is stronger for game 1, the 4th Therapy, 4th Breakthrough, or the 4th Imp? Please try and make a case for your reasoning instead of just saying which you prefer.

Vandalize- What's your reasoning for running Chain of Vapor over Nature's Claim? Is it the Reanimator matchup?

I'm not sold on the one of Dread Return targets in the sideboard though. If you flip half your deck over, you only have a 50% chance to hit your sided in target. That doesn't take into account the Dread Return or 3 guys you need either. I prefer to try and run 2 of the one I think will be the best in the meta, or overall more flexible, which I believe is Iona by far.

[Vlad Teppes]

That's the exact maindeck that I'm currently on, and it feels very strong. I've been debating on how to squeeze in the 4th Imp, possibly moving a Breakthrough or Therapy to the sideboard. Which do you all think is stronger for game 1, the 4th Therapy, 4th Breakthrough, or the 4th Imp? Please try and make a case for your reasoning instead of just saying which you prefer.

Vandalize- What's your reasoning for running Chain of Vapor over Nature's Claim? Is it the Reanimator matchup?

I'm not sold on the one of Dread Return targets in the sideboard though. If you flip half your deck over, you only have a 50% chance to hit your sided in target. That doesn't take into account the Dread Return or 3 guys you need either. I prefer to try and run 2 of the one I think will be the best in the meta, or overall more flexible, which I believe is Iona by far.

IMO I'd rather have the 4th imp vs the 4th breakthrough, the main reason is that the deck already has 8 other drawing effects and most of them do nothing when they are in the gy, imp on the other hand give us a beater, a reliable outlet, and is ichorid food when in the gy, the 4th therapy really shines when you are not running DR in the main deck and is our main line of defense against most decks ( not to mention, it gives us more beaters)
All in all I belive that a card that has some value in our hand and in our graveyard is better a card that has value only in our hand. (most of the time)

[igri_is_a_bk]

I'm considering Dredge for this weekend if I can make it, but I haven't practiced with it for a few months. I'm looking for you who play this on the reg. Is the fearless plan better than playing Claim or Chain? I saw somebody was playing Thoughtseize, which sounds really good to be honest. It hits everything we care about proactively in a more absolute-fashion than Chain of Vapor, which seems like the closest card for comparison. Firestorm has been great for me when I didn't play with LED, so I at least want them in the SB. DRS or not, the card is good against most non combo.


// Lands
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
1 [OD] Tarnished Citadel
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum

// Creatures
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
3 [TO] Ichorid

// Spells
4 [OD] Careful Study
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [DKA] Faithless Looting
3 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
1 [TSP] Dread Return

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [OD] Tarnished Citadel
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 4 [WL] Firestorm
SB: 3 [IA] Ashen Ghoul
SB: 1 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 [JU] Ray of Revelation

Anyone have some gems of advice for the list?

[BigMana]

So is there still a reason not to run LED?

[Vlad Teppes]

So is there still a reason not to run LED?

LED is just plain better, it gives us the speed we need to compete against the fastest decks in the format

[BigMana]

LED is just plain better, it gives us the speed we need to compete against the fastest decks in the format

Guess I'll just grind it out until I can afford them

[Vandalize]

That's the exact maindeck that I'm currently on, and it feels very strong. I've been debating on how to squeeze in the 4th Imp, possibly moving a Breakthrough or Therapy to the sideboard. Which do you all think is stronger for game 1, the 4th Therapy, 4th Breakthrough, or the 4th Imp? Please try and make a case for your reasoning instead of just saying which you prefer.

Vandalize- What's your reasoning for running Chain of Vapor over Nature's Claim? Is it the Reanimator matchup?

I'm not sold on the one of Dread Return targets in the sideboard though. If you flip half your deck over, you only have a 50% chance to hit your sided in target. That doesn't take into account the Dread Return or 3 guys you need either. I prefer to try and run 2 of the one I think will be the best in the meta, or overall more flexible, which I believe is Iona by far.

The 4th Breakthrough and the 4th PImp are the weakest slots. I prefer Breakthrough to maximize my chances to combo out early enough. The 4th Therapy should never leave maindeck in the DRless version. It's the proactive way to get rid of your Narcomoebas, relying solely on Ichorids could be trouble.

My Reasoning for Chain of Vapor is that's castable with all the 14 lands I play. Nature's Claim is only castable with 10 of maindeck lands, and the chances to get Discard Outlet, Draw Spell, Dredger, Gold Land and Nature's Claim is REALLY low. Chain of Vapor is really effective if you can time well in the end of your opponent's turn, then combo out safely and use Cabal Therapy to discard whatever you bounced.

Well, those DR targets are really specific, and they come in against hate-light decks, such as Elves and Combo in general.

[Vlad Teppes]

The 4th Breakthrough and the 4th PImp are the weakest slots. I prefer Breakthrough to maximize my chances to combo out early enough. The 4th Therapy should never leave maindeck in the DRless version. It's the proactive way to get rid of your Narcomoebas, relying solely on Ichorids could be trouble.

My Reasoning for Chain of Vapor is that's castable with all the 14 lands I play. Nature's Claim is only castable with 10 of maindeck lands, and the chances to get Discard Outlet, Draw Spell, Dredger, Gold Land and Nature's Claim is REALLY low. Chain of Vapor is really effective if you can time well in the end of your opponent's turn, then combo out safely and use Cabal Therapy to discard whatever you bounced.

Well, those DR targets are really specific, and they come in against hate-light decks, such as Elves and Combo in general.

Well, that's pretty much it, I really like both nature's claim and chain of vapor in my SB, but that' just me.
I really like breakthrough, but as a 4 of, it's a little overkill IMO, I mean, even if we draw 2 or more of them, we can only cast one anyway (but if one of them gets countered, the second one really comes in handy!), I can understand using both of them as a 4 of, but Pimp is more usefull, it provides us a discard outlet, a body to cast cabal therapy and ichorid food, and is less prone to get countered/duressed

again, sorry for my bad english, I'm in the first few months of english classes...

[Stone]

Was getting into Dredge again and saw people asking about sideboarding advice & main deck composition

Thought i'd repost a few valuable articles:

Dredge-Fu (Feldman)
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21777_The_Dark_Art_Of_Dredge_Fu.html

Joining the Dark Side (Kotter)
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/23739_Legacy_Week_Eternal_EuropeJoining_The_Dark_Side.html

Haven't checked the opening page so hoping this isn't a big facepalm.

Also i'm particularly interested in the Jonathon Morris Flayer of the hatebound list that went 6th in Cincinnati - anyone able to share a few video links or pros/cons with that guy?

Cheers,
Stone

[Final Fortune]

The 4th Breakthrough and the 4th PImp are the weakest slots. I prefer Breakthrough to maximize my chances to combo out early enough. The 4th Therapy should never leave maindeck in the DRless version. It's the proactive way to get rid of your Narcomoebas, relying solely on Ichorids could be trouble.

My Reasoning for Chain of Vapor is that's castable with all the 14 lands I play. Nature's Claim is only castable with 10 of maindeck lands, and the chances to get Discard Outlet, Draw Spell, Dredger, Gold Land and Nature's Claim is REALLY low. Chain of Vapor is really effective if you can time well in the end of your opponent's turn, then combo out safely and use Cabal Therapy to discard whatever you bounced.

Well, those DR targets are really specific, and they come in against hate-light decks, such as Elves and Combo in general.

I generally prefer the 4th Putrid Imp to the 4th Breakthrough, because Breakthrough is one of the worst cards post-SB vs hate. I've said it once before, but it merrits repeating, that the best way to build your MD in Dredge is to actually build your post-SB deck first and work backwards. Because all of your energy should be invested in games 2 and 3, and seemingly powerful cards like Lion's Eye Diamond and Breakthrough lose a lot of value compared to Putrid Imp/Tireless Tribe, Firestorm and Careful Study etc.

Honestly, if they re-printed an equivalent of Careful Study 5 thru' 8 then I would play it over Breakthrough just because of the post-SB utility.

[Vlad Teppes]

I generally prefer the 4th Putrid Imp to the 4th Breakthrough, because Breakthrough is one of the worst cards post-SB vs hate. I've said it once before, but it merrits repeating, that the best way to build your MD in Dredge is to actually build your post-SB deck first and work backwards. Because all of your energy should be invested in games 2 and 3, and seemingly powerful cards like Lion's Eye Diamond and Breakthrough lose a lot of value compared to Putrid Imp/Tireless Tribe, Firestorm and Careful Study etc.

Honestly, if they re-printed an equivalent of Careful Study 5 thru' 8 then I would play it over Breakthrough just because of the post-SB utility.

I agree with you, the 4th PImp is better than the 4th breakthrough most of the time, but I won't blame him if he wants to increase his chances of comboing out early or have something in case his first breakthrough is countered.

Is it just me or duress is just as good as thoughtseize in the sideboard?
I did my playtesting with both of these cards and duress did just as well, it hits almost everything we need to hit (counterspells, Batterskull, Jittle, Jace, combo pieces, and most hate) and doesn't need two life to get going.
Casting a thoughtseize out of a Tarnished citadel really hurts us and we didn't even cast a single business spell yet! in fact, most of our lands deal damage to us, why are we making it worse?

[Juicy Karaage]

I agree with you, the 4th PImp is better than the 4th breakthrough most of the time, but I won't blame him if he wants to increase his chances of comboing out early or have something in case his first breakthrough is countered.

Is it just me or duress is just as good as thoughtseize in the sideboard?
I did my playtesting with both of these cards and duress did just as well, it hits almost everything we need to hit (counterspells, Batterskull, Jittle, Jace, combo pieces, and most hate) and doesn't need two life to get going.
Casting a thoughtseize out of a Tarnished citadel really hurts us and we didn't even cast a single business spell yet! in fact, most of our lands deal damage to us, why are we making it worse?


Because we want to take out their Scavenging Ooze, Deathrite Shaman, Juton Grunt, Thalia etc as soon as possible. Duress won't do enough

[Vlad Teppes]

Because we want to take out their Scavenging Ooze, Deathrite Shaman, Juton Grunt, Thalia etc as soon as possible. Duress won't do enough

I used to think just like you...
' why bothering with a paltry - 2 life if I can take the best card of his hand!"

and then I draw the following hand:

"Toughtseize, Toughtseize, Tarnished citadel, careful study, faithless looting, golgari thug, golgari grave troll"

sweet hand, not so sweet 8 life loss in the first 2 turns

I got your point, seize is allways going to be better than duress, it can take any card of their hand, but sometimes the lifeloss it's just too much if your meta is full of delvers and aggro everywhere.

[Final Fortune]

I used to think just like you...
' why bothering with a paltry - 2 life if I can take the best card of his hand!"

and then I draw the following hand:

"Toughtseize, Toughtseize, Tarnished citadel, careful study, faithless looting, golgari thug, golgari grave troll"

sweet hand, not so sweet 8 life loss in the first 2 turns

I got your point, seize is allways going to be better than duress, it can take any card of their hand, but sometimes the lifeloss it's just too much if your meta is full of delvers and aggro everywhere.

The decks you board Thoughtseize in against don't usually have a clock, but they do usually have a creature that's a pain in the ass; for instance you'll Thoughtseize a Meddling Mage vs Miracles a lot.

[Stone]

That's the exact maindeck that I'm currently on, and it feels very strong. I've been debating on how to squeeze in the 4th Imp, possibly moving a Breakthrough or Therapy to the sideboard. Which do you all think is stronger for game 1, the 4th Therapy, 4th Breakthrough, or the 4th Imp? Please try and make a case for your reasoning instead of just saying which you prefer.



Pure theory but having just read the articles posted above i'd suggest cutting the 4th breakthrough for the 4th imp.
Imp fuels DR & therapy flashbacks as well as being the best outlet in the game for slow dredge grinding;
Breakthrough is a combo style peice with big reward v combo but is worse post board otherwise due to the ditch hand drawback which makes it the last draw spell you want to cast;
Therapy is incredibly important as the decks only disruption and as a sac outlet for bridge enabling.

So I say -1 breakthrough, +1 Imp and leave therapy at 4 :)


Has anyone used Flayer of the Hatebound? It sounds like it grants a pseudo haste via the comes into play...
Assuming 1 bridge and 3 dudes to sac to DR flayer: 4 damage for flayer + 6 for 3 zombies, therapy sac flayer for 5 damage from flayer and an additional 6 from zombies.... is that correct? 21 damage?
In a grinding scenario with 1 bridge and flayer 1 ichorid recursion is 3 for ichorid, 2 for EOT zombie...

Might also make blocking better on defense.

Am just a little reluctant after reading Feldman's article where he talks about the danger of cool things:

But remember: a win is a win. No matter how ugly it looks to spectators getting there with the cleanup step discard plan into a janky assortment of Zombies and lumbering Grave-Trolls backed up by Therapies earns you just as many points as does grandiosely smiting your foes with Lion's Eye Diamond into Iona or a furious Flame-Kin Zealot horde.

In return for eschewing these concessions to The Fear (or to Johnny perhaps) what the deck gains is consistency—and in turn more of those aforementioned point things.

Very tempted to just run the thugs as he indicates, though the article being pre faithless looting i'm wondering about the with/without LED option.
I have both available - obv LED gives more combo speed via looting flashback while the citadels do what? Improve consistency by reducing mulligans and enable you to play magic??? Have a better long game with the grind-mode of the deck and v hate post board?
Thoughts anyone? Advice appreciated from regular players either on my questions or thoughts on the articles linked above?

[raikenxy]

Pure theory but having just read the articles posted above i'd suggest cutting the 4th breakthrough for the 4th imp.
Imp fuels DR & therapy flashbacks as well as being the best outlet in the game for slow dredge grinding;
Breakthrough is a combo style peice with big reward v combo but is worse post board otherwise due to the ditch hand drawback which makes it the last draw spell you want to cast;
Therapy is incredibly important as the decks only disruption and as a sac outlet for bridge enabling.

So I say -1 breakthrough, +1 Imp and leave therapy at 4 :)


Has anyone used Flayer of the Hatebound? It sounds like it grants a pseudo haste via the comes into play...
Assuming 1 bridge and 3 dudes to sac to DR flayer: 4 damage for flayer + 6 for 3 zombies, therapy sac flayer for 5 damage from flayer and an additional 6 from zombies.... is that correct? 21 damage?
In a grinding scenario with 1 bridge and flayer 1 ichorid recursion is 3 for ichorid, 2 for EOT zombie...

Might also make blocking better on defense.

Am just a little reluctant after reading Feldman's article where he talks about the danger of cool things:

But remember: a win is a win. No matter how ugly it looks to spectators getting there with the cleanup step discard plan into a janky assortment of Zombies and lumbering Grave-Trolls backed up by Therapies earns you just as many points as does grandiosely smiting your foes with Lion's Eye Diamond into Iona or a furious Flame-Kin Zealot horde.

In return for eschewing these concessions to The Fear (or to Johnny perhaps) what the deck gains is consistency—and in turn more of those aforementioned point things.

Very tempted to just run the thugs as he indicates, though the article being pre faithless looting i'm wondering about the with/without LED option.
I have both available - obv LED gives more combo speed via looting flashback while the citadels do what? Improve consistency by reducing mulligans and enable you to play magic??? Have a better long game with the grind-mode of the deck and v hate post board?
Thoughts anyone? Advice appreciated from regular players either on my questions or thoughts on the articles linked above?

i've been running flayer in my build ever since he came out. I've found he's really great in grind games and great against deathrite shaman. a lot of people won't agree with me on that as quadlazer has a lot of popularity amongst dredge players. i've had great success with flayer, he makes your reanimator match up a lot easier and being able to one shot someone is just so valuable since the meta has become a lot more grindy

[Vlad Teppes]

i've been running flayer in my build ever since he came out. I've found he's really great in grind games and great against deathrite shaman. a lot of people won't agree with me on that as quadlazer has a lot of popularity amongst dredge players. i've had great success with flayer, he makes your reanimator match up a lot easier and being able to one shot someone is just so valuable since the meta has become a lot more grindy

Quadlazer is the best build IMO, tough I can see the point using DR as a backup win condition.
the point is that DR really slows the deck down, it gets stuck in your hand and those DR targets are just as lame in situations were you are either:

A) facing GY hate in the maindeck ( DR shaman, Scooze or the rare MD rest in peace)
B) facing combo matchups were you need to be faster to win

It's tiresome to mullingan good hands because we didn't draw a land or draw spell instead of a dread return, so why dilude the deck if we can add more business spells like breaktrough and cabal therapys and leave those Dread returns /targets in the sideboard against matchups that we need to grind?

[raikenxy]

Quadlazer is the best build IMO, tough I can see the point using DR as a backup win condition.
the point is that DR really slows the deck down, it gets stuck in your hand and those DR targets are just as lame in situations were you are either:

A) facing GY hate in the maindeck ( DR shaman, Scooze or the rare MD rest in peace)
B) facing combo matchups were you need to be faster to win

It's tiresome to mullingan good hands because we didn't draw a land or draw spell instead of a dread return, so why dilude the deck if we can add more business spells like breaktrough and cabal therapys and leave those Dread returns /targets in the sideboard against matchups that we need to grind?

I run 2 dread returns main and one flayer, and the deck i will openly just say is one of the most powerfully consistent "mulliganing" (if thats a word) decks in legacy. if i have to mulligan i mulligan, winning on a mull to 4 is not that uncommon with this deck.

a) DR is actually great against deathrite shaman, as they must either choose to eat your DR or your ichorid/narcomoeba, and i can honestly say if they make the wrong choice, they die. at starcity games sommerset i remember playing against jund twice where they ate one ichorid on my upkeep, where by i jsut dredged into narcomoeba's and killed them with flayer. on top of that even if you can't kill them with flayer as you only have one dread return in the yard, flayer of the hatebound can also kill their deathrite shaman, scavenging ooze, w.e creature hate bear they have. it's main deck removal, which can also be relevant.
b) i'd say it's great in the combo matchup, as it enables a turn one kill with your god hand, as opposed to hoping you get enough therapies in your yard that cabal therapy gets there.
c) simply put i dont lose once my bridges are exiled, as i can still win. I don't lose when i have to rely on attacking through a board stall when i know attacking means i die, and it also means i win the second i mill my graveyard and have everything i need, as i don't need to pass the turn back and give my oppenent any chance.
d) i run thirteen land, which is more then a traditional quad build


i understand it's a preference, and those are the reasons why i prefer it. i'm not saying quadlazer is a bad deck at all, its a great deck, i just think the arguement of being more "optimal" is wrong. but ocne again just my preference.

[Vlad Teppes]

I run 2 dread returns main and one flayer, and the deck i will openly just say is one of the most powerfully consistent "mulliganing" (if thats a word) decks in legacy. if i have to mulligan i mulligan, winning on a mull to 4 is not that uncommon with this deck.

a) DR is actually great against deathrite shaman, as they must either choose to eat your DR or your ichorid/narcomoeba, and i can honestly say if they make the wrong choice, they die. at starcity games sommerset i remember playing against jund twice where they ate one ichorid on my upkeep, where by i jsut dredged into narcomoeba's and killed them with flayer. on top of that even if you can't kill them with flayer as you only have one dread return in the yard, flayer of the hatebound can also kill their deathrite shaman, scavenging ooze, w.e creature hate bear they have. it's main deck removal, which can also be relevant.
b) i'd say it's great in the combo matchup, as it enables a turn one kill with your god hand, as opposed to hoping you get enough therapies in your yard that cabal therapy gets there.
c) simply put i dont lose once my bridges are exiled, as i can still win. I don't lose when i have to rely on attacking through a board stall when i know attacking means i die, and it also means i win the second i mill my graveyard and have everything i need, as i don't need to pass the turn back and give my oppenent any chance.
d) i run thirteen land, which is more then a traditional quad build


i understand it's a preference, and those are the reasons why i prefer it. i'm not saying quadlazer is a bad deck at all, its a great deck, i just think the arguement of being more "optimal" is wrong. but ocne again just my preference.

You just exactly hit what I meant!
With dread return and targets, the "god hand" you mentioned is less likely to happen, if it happens at all!
and also, not allways quadlazer have to follow the EXACT same list, I for example, preffer to use more lands, and a darkblast (metagame call, lot's of cheap aggro decks where I play) in exchange for some Ichorids and Breaktroughs
here's the list I've been playtesting with:


4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
3 Putrid Imp
3 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
1 Darkblast
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 Thoughtseize OR 3 Duress not decided yet
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 2 Dread Return
SB: 1 Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

So far It's working just like it should, and it gives just what I need postboard, and I don't miss MD Dread Return at all, so long I can race deathrite shaman with my draw spells I can do just as fine
Dread Return really comes in handy against decks that are light on hate such as elves and goblins but even on those matchups, we can outspeed them without dread return anyways, so why even bother? but it's a great card whatsoever, it can save games should we go for the grinding route and it's very forgiving!

[Mindlash]

Has anyone used Flayer of the Hatebound? It sounds like it grants a pseudo haste via the comes into play...
Assuming 1 bridge and 3 dudes to sac to DR flayer: 4 damage for flayer + 6 for 3 zombies, therapy sac flayer for 5 damage from flayer and an additional 6 from zombies.... is that correct? 21 damage?
In a grinding scenario with 1 bridge and flayer 1 ichorid recursion is 3 for ichorid, 2 for EOT zombie...


Flayer of the Hatebound:

"Whenever Flayer of the Hatebound or another creature enters the battlefield from your graveyard, that creature deals damage equal to its power to target creature or player."

Zombiestoken don't return to the battlefield from your graveyard...therefore they deal no damage via Flayer.
Typically you kill through the direct damage from a returned GGT. You should run 3 DR if you want to kill you opponent with the Flayer/GGT kill regulary because you will need at least 2 DR for it.

The rest works like you described it. Flayer comes in for 4 dmg. You sac Flayer and 2 other creatures for DR on GGT. Flayer returns for another 5 and GGT hopefully for 11+ ;-)

Greetings Chris

[Stone]

Flayer of the Hatebound:

"Whenever Flayer of the Hatebound or another creature enters the battlefield from your graveyard, that creature deals damage equal to its power to target creature or player."

Zombiestoken don't return to the battlefield from your graveyard...therefore they deal no damage via Flayer.
Typically you kill through the direct damage from a returned GGT. You should run 3 DR if you want to kill you opponent with the Flayer/GGT kill regulary because you will need at least 2 DR for it.

The rest works like you described it. Flayer comes in for 4 dmg. You sac Flayer and 2 other creatures for DR on GGT. Flayer returns for another 5 and GGT hopefully for 11+ ;-)

Greetings Chris

Looks like I suffered a case of 'Read The Fre@k!ng card!!'
Thanks for setting me straight Chris - am now going through the opening post links. You guys have consolidated a lot of great resources there....
Thanks for responses all.

[Vlad Teppes]

Hey guys! I was playtesting today in a small local tour! it was a very quick tour but there was some delvers, stoneblades and tribals ( I won the tour with little trouble aside for a maverick player)
I gonna ask you, what is more usefull against elves in the sideboard?
Is it even worth boarding something against them in the first place? I mean, they can interact with our bridges with NO (but that's usually too slow) and pack some grave hate in the form of ooze and DR shaman, they can even GSZ for them in a pinch!
I tried using the DR + elesh norn package but that quickly failed as my opponent had a ooze and crpyt staring at me.
I managed to win game 3 by reseting the deck and racing FTW

by the way this is my sideboard:

SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 2 Dread Return
SB: 1 Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

Using my sideboard, what would be your boarding plan (if you wanted to board anything) against elves , UR delver and stoneblade? (just checking in case I did something "wrong")
also do you guys have any advices on my sideboard? (I'm using the regular quadlazer list but: -1 ichorid, - 1 breaktrough -1 Putrid imp, +1 Darkblast, +2 Tarnished Citadel)

thanks in advance!

[rw1347]

Hey guys, was wondering if you guys know any good tech to deal with a resolves elesh norn. Been playing in a heavy reanimator meta lately.

[raikenxy]

Hey guys, was wondering if you guys know any good tech to deal with a resolves elesh norn. Been playing in a heavy reanimator meta lately.

elesh norn on turn one/two is just an auto loss foryou. their's nothing you can do if they'reon the play and they go entomb reanimate. Chain of vapor is your best call, i used to have the same problem but i simply dealt with elesh norn by boarding to be faster and establishing a flayer/ichorid burn clock to the point where they couldn't use reanimate anymore. once they're under 8 life the can't actually cast reanimate or they die. meaning they're either on show and tell or exhume, and most often it's exhume which you dont care about, because then you just go get a big fat grave troll or a DR target (if your running one) and win anyway

your main goal in this game is simply to race them and nail them with therapy, since most reanimator decks have essentially cut animate dead the reanimate spells you name are exhume/reanimate... . if your not runing DR as most dredge players aren't you board to be faster and race them before they combo off which is still effective, we arent favored in this match, but it's not as overwhelming as it seems. id say you unfavored 60/40 at worst.

[rw1347]

Thanks for the reply, I figured it was mostly an auto loss. Just wanted to see if I might have been missing a small thing

[Vlad Teppes]

While definitely not a favorable matchup, the reanimator isn't that hard, I mean they can blow us out with a quick entomb/ reanimate elesh norn (or most fatties really) and we can't to nothing, but Storm can blow us out with equally ease if they got a good draw, IMO it all comes down to cabal therapy, naming the right cards can slow then down several turns, while they reasemble we can beat them, or we can just outspeed if they can't counter us right of the bat (another reason that cabal therapy shines), I would say that is a closer matchup than it looks on paper and they also pack only light hate (coffin purge/ surgical at best) 60/40 for reanimator, and 50/50 if using no DR in the main deck, for it gives us more speed or using DR but with the right targets ( Flayer can put then in a clock and ashen rider is boss).

[HammafistRoob]

So there was only ~38 players in the GPT I went to in Rhode Island :(. I ended up playing a really weird sideboard because I had to make due with what I had access to. Here's what I played followed by a baby report:
//Lands-14
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

//Creatures-22
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp

-//Spells-24
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

//Sideboard-15
2 Dread Return
1 Putrid Imp
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Ashen Ghoul
3 Pithing Needle
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Thoughtseize

Round 1 vs. BURG-
G1- I win the roll and go off turn one with LED+Study+Troll+Looting. When I therapy him he asks to see my graveyard, and I'm surprised he doesn't immediately scoop 'em up. Since I'm blind here I only really fear a possible combo deck so I nane LED and whiff, seeing 2 Delvers, Ooze, Daze and some Lands including a Wasteland. My second Therapy takes the Delvers so I can swing next turn without losing my Bridges, and I pass. He plays land go. I bring back Ichorid and crack him for 7, pass turn making 2 more zombies. He lays Ooze and ships, 2 Ichorids join my 5 zombies and that's game.

G2- I mull to five and see a decent hand. He leads with Delver go. I tank for a bit and play a Therapy off a City and name Tormod's Crypt, only to see a hand of 3 Wastes, a Daze, and a Stifle. His Delvers flips off another Stifle, he wastes City and cracks in for 3. Now I'm definitely boned since he has a Daze for my discard outlet and a Waste for my last land. I hindsight this was a misplay since I should've just respected the Wasteland+Daze combination and went for my discard outlet on turn one. I feared gravehate to much and it cost me dearly here.

G3- I forget the details in this one, but it involved me keeping a nice hand and doing a lot of dredging. But before that happened, I was forced to take two natural draw steps, I drew Narcomoeba's both times. So upon dredging through a little more than half my deck I couldn't find a creature. I lost to the Delver beats plus 6 damage from my own lands(Citadel&City). 0-1 (1-2)

Round 2 vs. Omnitell-
G1- He wins the roll and is able to combo off after my 2 Therapies(1st one blind ripped a S&T).

G2- I get the nuts draw on a mull to four, LED, LED, Study, Troll. I didn't even have to use the 2nd LED and Therapy just destroyed him.

G3- I forget my hand here, but I remember I kept my 7 and he mulled to 6. I go crazy turn 2, and when I therapy him he Brainstorms in response hiding 2 combo pieces. He shows me 2Ponder, 2Preordain and non Sol land. I rip the cantrips with two more therapies and pass with tons of zombies, he packs it up. 1-1 (3-3)

Round 3 vs. Uw Miracles(md 2 RiP and 3 E Tutors)
G1- We both kniw what each other is on. I win the roll and we both go back for a new 6. I rip his hand apart with Therapies but I make a misplay, which I noticed immediately, of bringing back all three Ichorids against his active Top. Luckily I dodge a bullet and he didn't have the Terminus.

G2- I get crushed by turn 1 Top, turn 2 RiP, turn 3 EoT Tutor for Helm, turn 5 gg.

G3- He slows me down with a FoW and a Spell Pierce, then lands a RiP against my 1 card in hand, LED, City and Coliseum. I pop the Coliseum in response to the RiP and find a Chain of Vapor to hold on to. After 3 turns my hand is good enough to EoT bounce thhe RiP and attempt to go off. I figure I have to go all in here, I dredge all my deck except 16 cards at this point and when I sac my only Narcomoeba for a Therapy to take the RiP, he shows me E Tutor, Helm, and a blank. In response to my second Therapy he wipes my board with Terminus and I now have no tokens so I have to pass. He spins his his Top after replaying it, taps it to draw and slams another RiP. He kills me with the Helm 2 turns later. 1-2 (4-5)

Round 4 vs. Werewolf Stompy
G1- We don't kniw what the other is on this time. This was a very awkward and lucky game for me. I have to mull to 4 and my hand is trash, I lead with Citadel pass and he has no idea what I'm on. He plays turn one 3sphere, ouch. I draw and say go. He lands turn 2 Blood Moon, say go. I draw and pass, he lands Revoker and names Mother of Runes(LOL!) and ships back to me. I take beats from Revoker and draw up to 8 cards and dump a Troll on my cleanup step to star slow dredging. I eventually hit Ichorids and Bridges and take the game over after I did nothing on my first 6(!) turns. He kept drawing Moon, Moxen, and the like and had no real clock, I got lucky there.

G2- I played like a idiot, his Moon and Faerie Macabre slowed me down enough and I died to Revoker and Thundermaw. Yikes.

G3- I went nuts on turn two and he couldn't do much after using his Macabre to hit a Dredger on his first turn. Ashen Ghoul put in some damage! 2-2(6-6)

Round 5 vs. Jund-
G1- I win the die roll and he has no real business against me, I easily get there.

G2- I mull to five after he keeps 7. He leads with Deathrite, I play a land. He wastes my land and plays Bob. I proceed to get steam rolled from this point on as my only other land was Coliseum and I had no blue spells for it.

G3- We both mull to 6. I play Study and dump two Thugs, he plays a Shaman. I needle the Shaman and Dredge a Thug back on turn 2. He plays a Goyf and ships back to me. I blow the game open with Breakthrough and he had nothing to stop me from winning two turns later. 3-2 (8-7)

Round 6 vs. Belcher-
G1- We know this will be a race and I win the roll. I play land, Imp, go. He plays a Mox and ships back. I go nuts with Breakthrough, therapy him a few times (blind named Belcher and whiffed) and win two turns later.

G2- He plays nothing and passes the turn, sweet. I blind Therapy turn one, again naming Belcher and whiff, which is fine obviously. He plays a mox and nothing else. I make some zombies, destroy his hand and swing in for a few points of damage. He can't do anything except draw and pass. I swing him down to 2 and end my turn with 18 zombies in play, he draws and scoops.
4-2 (10-7)
I ended up in 11th missing top8 due to bad breakers from losing two early rounds.

I was very happy with the maindeck and winning die rolls. My sideboard didn't do me much good at all even though I did cast a Thoughtseize against Miracles which he Forced. I Needled a Shaman which helped, and I landed a winmore Iona against Omnitell. I really want to iron out a working sideboard strategy and then get the cards, I just have no way of testing at the moment and did VERY minimal testing before this event.

[Vlad Teppes]

So there was only ~38 players in the GPT I went to in Rhode Island :(. I ended up playing a really weird sideboard because I had to make due with what I had access to. Here's what I played followed by a baby report:
//Lands-14
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

//Creatures-22
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp

-//Spells-24
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

//Sideboard-15
2 Dread Return
1 Putrid Imp
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Ashen Ghoul
3 Pithing Needle
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Thoughtseize

Round 1 vs. BURG-
G1- I win the roll and go off turn one with LED+Study+Troll+Looting. When I therapy him he asks to see my graveyard, and I'm surprised he doesn't immediately scoop 'em up. Since I'm blind here I only really fear a possible combo deck so I nane LED and whiff, seeing 2 Delvers, Ooze, Daze and some Lands including a Wasteland. My second Therapy takes the Delvers so I can swing next turn without losing my Bridges, and I pass. He plays land go. I bring back Ichorid and crack him for 7, pass turn making 2 more zombies. He lays Ooze and ships, 2 Ichorids join my 5 zombies and that's game.

G2- I mull to five and see a decent hand. He leads with Delver go. I tank for a bit and play a Therapy off a City and name Tormod's Crypt, only to see a hand of 3 Wastes, a Daze, and a Stifle. His Delvers flips off another Stifle, he wastes City and cracks in for 3. Now I'm definitely boned since he has a Daze for my discard outlet and a Waste for my last land. I hindsight this was a misplay since I should've just respected the Wasteland+Daze combination and went for my discard outlet on turn one. I feared gravehate to much and it cost me dearly here.

G3- I forget the details in this one, but it involved me keeping a nice hand and doing a lot of dredging. But before that happened, I was forced to take two natural draw steps, I drew Narcomoeba's both times. So upon dredging through a little more than half my deck I couldn't find a creature. I lost to the Delver beats plus 6 damage from my own lands(Citadel&City). 0-1 (1-2)

Round 2 vs. Omnitell-
G1- He wins the roll and is able to combo off after my 2 Therapies(1st one blind ripped a S&T).

G2- I get the nuts draw on a mull to four, LED, LED, Study, Troll. I didn't even have to use the 2nd LED and Therapy just destroyed him.

G3- I forget my hand here, but I remember I kept my 7 and he mulled to 6. I go crazy turn 2, and when I therapy him he Brainstorms in response hiding 2 combo pieces. He shows me 2Ponder, 2Preordain and non Sol land. I rip the cantrips with two more therapies and pass with tons of zombies, he packs it up. 1-1 (3-3)

Round 3 vs. Uw Miracles(md 2 RiP and 3 E Tutors)
G1- We both kniw what each other is on. I win the roll and we both go back for a new 6. I rip his hand apart with Therapies but I make a misplay, which I noticed immediately, of bringing back all three Ichorids against his active Top. Luckily I dodge a bullet and he didn't have the Terminus.

G2- I get crushed by turn 1 Top, turn 2 RiP, turn 3 EoT Tutor for Helm, turn 5 gg.

G3- He slows me down with a FoW and a Spell Pierce, then lands a RiP against my 1 card in hand, LED, City and Coliseum. I pop the Coliseum in response to the RiP and find a Chain of Vapor to hold on to. After 3 turns my hand is good enough to EoT bounce thhe RiP and attempt to go off. I figure I have to go all in here, I dredge all my deck except 16 cards at this point and when I sac my only Narcomoeba for a Therapy to take the RiP, he shows me E Tutor, Helm, and a blank. In response to my second Therapy he wipes my board with Terminus and I now have no tokens so I have to pass. He spins his his Top after replaying it, taps it to draw and slams another RiP. He kills me with the Helm 2 turns later. 1-2 (4-5)

Round 4 vs. Werewolf Stompy
G1- We don't kniw what the other is on this time. This was a very awkward and lucky game for me. I have to mull to 4 and my hand is trash, I lead with Citadel pass and he has no idea what I'm on. He plays turn one 3sphere, ouch. I draw and say go. He lands turn 2 Blood Moon, say go. I draw and pass, he lands Revoker and names Mother of Runes(LOL!) and ships back to me. I take beats from Revoker and draw up to 8 cards and dump a Troll on my cleanup step to star slow dredging. I eventually hit Ichorids and Bridges and take the game over after I did nothing on my first 6(!) turns. He kept drawing Moon, Moxen, and the like and had no real clock, I got lucky there.

G2- I played like a idiot, his Moon and Faerie Macabre slowed me down enough and I died to Revoker and Thundermaw. Yikes.

G3- I went nuts on turn two and he couldn't do much after using his Macabre to hit a Dredger on his first turn. Ashen Ghoul put in some damage! 2-2(6-6)

Round 5 vs. Jund-
G1- I win the die roll and he has no real business against me, I easily get there.

G2- I mull to five after he keeps 7. He leads with Deathrite, I play a land. He wastes my land and plays Bob. I proceed to get steam rolled from this point on as my only other land was Coliseum and I had no blue spells for it.

G3- We both mull to 6. I play Study and dump two Thugs, he plays a Shaman. I needle the Shaman and Dredge a Thug back on turn 2. He plays a Goyf and ships back to me. I blow the game open with Breakthrough and he had nothing to stop me from winning two turns later. 3-2 (8-7)

Round 6 vs. Belcher-
G1- We know this will be a race and I win the roll. I play land, Imp, go. He plays a Mox and ships back. I go nuts with Breakthrough, therapy him a few times (blind named Belcher and whiffed) and win two turns later.

G2- He plays nothing and passes the turn, sweet. I blind Therapy turn one, again naming Belcher and whiff, which is fine obviously. He plays a mox and nothing else. I make some zombies, destroy his hand and swing in for a few points of damage. He can't do anything except draw and pass. I swing him down to 2 and end my turn with 18 zombies in play, he draws and scoops.
4-2 (10-7)
I ended up in 11th missing top8 due to bad breakers from losing two early rounds.

I was very happy with the maindeck and winning die rolls. My sideboard didn't do me much good at all even though I did cast a Thoughtseize against Miracles which he Forced. I Needled a Shaman which helped, and I landed a winmore Iona against Omnitell. I really want to iron out a working sideboard strategy and then get the cards, I just have no way of testing at the moment and did VERY minimal testing before this event.

Your main deck is really sweet, but you wiffed a lot of therapys, most of the games you lost could easily be wins if you named the right card.
then again, therapy is the hardest card on the deck to master, and practice is a good way to get good with the deck, you did a lot of misplays but you won a good percentage of your games with skill, so congratulations mate!

[HammafistRoob]

I whiffed Therapies because I name cards that will beat me. Like against Belcher the whiffs made no difference and I named the right card. I'm pretty sure I've yet to meet anyone as good with Therapy as myself, not to sound uber conceded or anything. I used to play mono black A LOT about five years ago, everyone thought it wasn't a real deck but it didn't stop me from winning a crazy percentage of my games off the back of Therapy. Thanks dude, but 11th clearly deserves no kudos :).

[Vlad Teppes]

I whiffed Therapies because I name cards that will beat me. Like against Belcher the whiffs made no difference and I named the right card. I'm pretty sure I've yet to meet anyone as good with Therapy as myself, not to sound uber conceded or anything. I used to play mono black A LOT about five years ago, everyone thought it wasn't a real deck but it didn't stop me from winning a crazy percentage of my games off the back of Therapy. Thanks dude, but 11th clearly deserves no kudos :).

The placings are irrelevant, the games you won, you did with skill, so that deserves kudos

about the therapys, while i'm no specialist, I can't say I suck with them, against belcher name goblin charbelcher ( like you did), but on the other games you could have done diferently ( not to say that you did anything '"wrong" as Cabal therapy is a dificult card to master and you are clearly experienced with the card), but it did cost you some games.

[Timber]

Andrew Dziedzic got 4th place this weekend at SGC Legacy Open Milwaukee with a DR Flayer build. Interesting to see Wispmare in his sideboard.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=59866

[JPoJohnson]

That vintage tech.

[Vlad Teppes]

cool sideboard, but what's the advantage of Ingot chewer and wispmare over say, ancient grudge/ ray of revelation? can somebody explaim why the cute tech is better? I get that they sometimes nets BFB tokens, but does it make up for the loss of instant speed and flashback? what am I missing?

And while I loved Andrew list, I personally don't like that low land/dredger count, it makes the deck way too unreliable.

[tyriion]

Wispmare/Chewer will give you a creature in the yard after evoking them. I don't really see it as so great however, as the GY will be empty when evoking/after evoking. If you evoke Wispmare to kill a RiP it will find an empty GY. If you evoke Chewer they will probably activate crypt/relic in response. The only time it could net you zombies is Chewer on Cage and Wispmare on a hardcast Leyline. But maybe I'm missing something as I have only thought about this plan, never tried it for real.

[Anusien]

If you don't need them, you can evoke them for tokens. They are also extra creatures for Troll. They also don't cost 2 mana like Grudge/Ray.

[Parcher]

Wispmare/Chewer will give you a creature in the yard after evoking them. I don't really see it as so great however, as the GY will be empty when evoking/after evoking. If you evoke Wispmare to kill a RiP it will find an empty GY. If you evoke Chewer they will probably activate crypt/relic in response. The only time it could net you zombies is Chewer on Cage and Wispmare on a hardcast Leyline. But maybe I'm missing something as I have only thought about this plan, never tried it for real.

I dislike Chewer and Mare for those reasons. Additionally, the Sorcery-speed hurts in a deck that has little available mana on it's own turn. The main reason I eschew them, is that being single-mode destruction spells, they halve your SB slots for Artifact and Enchantment removal.

That said, there are many reasons to run them that besides their use as anti-hate, for which I don't think they are optimal.

Dodge Pierce
Beat Chalice
Dodge Thalia
Dodge Thorn
Are better against Counterbalance
Can be recurred with Dread Return
Can be recurred with Thug
Get Bridge tokens
Have no "drawbacks", such as the life gain from Claim, or the redirect bounce of Chain

[Vlad Teppes]

I dislike Chewer and Mare for those reasons. Additionally, the Sorcery-speed hurts in a deck that has little available mana on it's own turn. The main reason I eschew them, is that being single-mode destruction spells, they halve your SB slots for Artifact and Enchantment removal.

That said, there are many reasons to run them that besides their use as anti-hate, for which I don't think they are optimal.

Dodge Pierce
Beat Chalice
Dodge Thalia
Dodge Thorn
Are better against Counterbalance
Can be recurred with Dread Return
Can be recurred with Thug
Get Bridge tokens
Have no "drawbacks", such as the life gain from Claim, or the redirect bounce of Chain


I belive you got it right, I will try ingot chewer in my sideboard on my next tour, just to see how well it does, he has have some advantages over ancient grudge that I didn't know about ( such as dodge pierce and thalia, not to mention the cute trick with thug). IMO it's worth a shot.

thanks for the info!

[JPoJohnson]

I personally like it a lot more than spells. One note to the list above is that it also dodges Chalice of the Void.

People are going to protect their hate, make their protection even more worthless.:wink:

[Parcher]

I personally like it a lot more than spells. One note to the list above is that it also dodges Chalice of the Void.

People are going to protect their hate, make their protection even more worthless.:wink:




Beat Chalice

[raikenxy]

Hey everyone took dredge to a local last week. We had a huge turnout oddly and I ended up going 5-1 with my list losing in the finals to a friend: /

my list

Creatures
4 grave-troll
4 stinkweed imp
3 thug
4 putrid imp
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

Business
4 LED
4 Careful Study
3 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
2 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below

Lands
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Tarnished Citadel

Sideboard
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Nether shadow
1 Ancient Grudge
3 nature’s claim
3 pithing needle
2 firestorm
1 Iona
1 Elesh




Round 1 vs Goblins

I’ve never seen the dude before and have no idea what he’s playing. He wins the die roll and chooses to go first. He fetches into a taiga then plays aether vial. My opening 7 is gemstone, gemstone, led, breakthrough, troll, troll, narcomoeba. I draw a looting, play the mine, led, then go nuts, flayering him that turn. On to game 2.

Sideboarding
-1 Tarnished Citadel
-1 Putrid Imp
+2 Gitaxian Probes

Game two I mull to six and keep a putrid imp, city of brass, probe, careful study, troll. He Leads off again, fetching then playing a goblin lackey (yikes)… I draw a cephalid coliseum, play land then Putrid Imp, I dump the grave troll into the yard then pay 2 life for gitaxian probe. I dredge six, getting one bridge and a therapy and he reveals a hand with both a skirk prospector, two matrons , and two lands. I swing for two in the air, then flashback therapy naming prospector to get a zombie to block his lackey and pass. On his turn he draws, play’s a land then passes. On my turn I dredge, cast careful study find a narco therapy and bridge. I take the two matrons out of his hand to see he had drawn a siege gang commander. I swing with one of my zombies leaving the other two back. I win this game with zombie ichorid beatdown.

Round 2 vs Manaless 0.o

This guy I played was really cool, always nice playing against a fun player as we were joking the whole time. He wins the die roll and chooses to be on the play and asks if I know what he’s on yet lol. I respond by saying I do and that he won’t like this game as he realizes I’m on LED dredge. I turn one flayer him game one then game two dread return elesh norn on turn three. Quick game so I was able to get food while everyone was playing.

Round 3 vs Omni-tell

I’m always surprised at how easy this match up is. With the number of counterspells they pack I would Imagine they would be a tougher game but it’s never the case lol. The guy I’m playing is a regular at the store the tourni took place at like me so I know what he’s on. I win the die roll and keep a hand with putrid Imp, led, breakthrough, city, city, stinkweed imp, looting. I lead off by playing a putrid Imp, he responds by forcing it pitching a preordain. On his turn he plays an island then ponders… doesn’t like any of the three so he ships them back shuffles and draws a card then passes. On my turn I draw another stinkweed imp, play my second land play the LED, cast breakthrough and crack the LED after maintaining priority, I ask if the spell resolves and he says it does.. at which point I do my dredge shenanigans and flayer him after taking show and tell and enter the infinite out of his hand wit therapies.

Sideboarding
-1 Flayer
+1 Iona

This game was honestly hilarious… as I started out mulling into oblivion. My seven was aweful, my six worse, my five was garbage, and my four cards were study, thug, land, land. He plays an Island and ponders then passes. I draw an Iona off the top… laugh a lil on the inside play my land and careful study, he forces the study pitching a brainstorm. His turn he drops a sol land and play’s show and tell … I put my card face down and say I die to an emrakul and he asks why. We flip our cards and he has revealed omniscience where I reveal Iona… lol I beat him down with her to win the game.

Round 4 vs Junk

I’ve never seen this dude and don’t know what he’s on. Lot of new people came in to play apparently. I win the die roll and elect to go first, I mull to six and my hand was putrid led, troll, gemstone, gemstone, breakthrough, breakthrough. I play the gemstone, the led, go through the dredging motions and reveal some narcos and therapies with some bridges. I flashback therapy on him and he just scoops… he stated he was already behind at the point and would rather just conceal info for game two… so just like that were on to game two lol.

I go fearless for this game as I have no idea what he’s on. I was tempted to bring it natures claim’s as a catch all but figured there was always game three. I mull to six again with putrid imp, thug , bridge, ichorid, city of brass. He plays a deathrite shaman and passes -_ -… I draw a troll off the top, play my putrid imp then pass. On his turn he fetches into a swamp, then thoughtseizes me… He takes my bridge and puts it into the yard of all things which I thought was weird and passes. At the end of his turn I dump a thug into the yard. He eats it, in response to the deathrite I dump the troll. He surgically extracts it - _ -… so I’m left to draw a card. On his turn he surgically extracts my bridges and drops another deathrite so I’m never in this game at all.

Game three
-1 tarnished citadel
-1 Putrid Imp
+2 Nether Shadow

I mull to six again and keep, was careful study, looting, two stinkweeds, cephalid coliseum, LED. My opponent had mulled to five so I felt pretty good. I play LED, land, study crack the LED… I dredge about twenty cards revealing two narco’s a bridge, an ichorid and two therapies… He let’s the narco’s resolve and they hit the battlefield. I flashback a therapy naming deathrite shaman and get one out of his hand, the rest of the cards were two fetches, knight of the reliquary, and goyf. He plays a land and passes. I dredge more getting another bridge and two ichorids. Therapy away his goyf seeing he had drawn another knight. I attack for two and have two summoning sick zombies and pass.He draws, plays a deathrite and passes. I bring back an ichorid, dredge another stinkweed imp getting a flayer. I attack then dread return flayer for the kill. I ask if his five was worth it and he said if given a chance he could have bogged me with kotr turn three and that was about it.

Round 5 vs RIP Miracles

This was against my friend and this matchup is nigh impossible. He has counterspells for my combo, terminus for my zombie hordes, and maindeck rest in peace. Game one he goes first and plays RIP turn two… nothing I could do. Game I draw a nut hand but it dies to his force of will, and he proceeds to play RIP lol.

Overall I was pretty happy with the day. Got paired against a lot of favorable match-ups outside of the finals and the sideboard was decent. Not sure how I feel about probes… was testing them this day to see if they made the deck faster and outside of the goblins game I didn’t use them. Deck was hot all day though. Beat decks I was supposed to beat and lost to what I was supposed to. Fav moment was dropping iona off of omnitells show and tell lol.

[Que]

Glad people are looking into Wispmare and Ingot Chewer again.


I dislike Chewer and Mare for those reasons. Additionally, the Sorcery-speed hurts in a deck that has little available mana on it's own turn. The main reason I eschew them, is that being single-mode destruction spells, they halve your SB slots for Artifact and Enchantment removal.

That said, there are many reasons to run them that besides their use as anti-hate, for which I don't think they are optimal.

Dodge Pierce
Beat Chalice
Dodge Thalia
Dodge Thorn
Are better against Counterbalance
Can be recurred with Dread Return
Can be recurred with Thug
Get Bridge tokens
Have no "drawbacks", such as the life gain from Claim, or the redirect bounce of Chain

These are the exact reasons why I WOULD run them. I think the benefits outweigh the fact that you have to eat up a couple more slots in your sb.

[Vlad Teppes]

Hey everyone took dredge to a local last week. We had a huge turnout oddly and I ended up going 5-1 with my list losing in the finals to a friend: /

my list

Creatures
4 grave-troll
4 stinkweed imp
3 thug
4 putrid imp
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

Business
4 LED
4 Careful Study
3 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
2 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below

Lands
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Tarnished Citadel

Sideboard
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Nether shadow
1 Ancient Grudge
3 nature’s claim
3 pithing needle
2 firestorm
1 Iona
1 Elesh




Round 1 vs Goblins

I’ve never seen the dude before and have no idea what he’s playing. He wins the die roll and chooses to go first. He fetches into a taiga then plays aether vial. My opening 7 is gemstone, gemstone, led, breakthrough, troll, troll, narcomoeba. I draw a looting, play the mine, led, then go nuts, flayering him that turn. On to game 2.

Sideboarding
-1 Tarnished Citadel
-1 Putrid Imp
+2 Gitaxian Probes

Game two I mull to six and keep a putrid imp, city of brass, probe, careful study, troll. He Leads off again, fetching then playing a goblin lackey (yikes)… I draw a cephalid coliseum, play land then Putrid Imp, I dump the grave troll into the yard then pay 2 life for gitaxian probe. I dredge six, getting one bridge and a therapy and he reveals a hand with both a skirk prospector, two matrons , and two lands. I swing for two in the air, then flashback therapy naming prospector to get a zombie to block his lackey and pass. On his turn he draws, play’s a land then passes. On my turn I dredge, cast careful study find a narco therapy and bridge. I take the two matrons out of his hand to see he had drawn a siege gang commander. I swing with one of my zombies leaving the other two back. I win this game with zombie ichorid beatdown.

Round 2 vs Manaless 0.o

This guy I played was really cool, always nice playing against a fun player as we were joking the whole time. He wins the die roll and chooses to be on the play and asks if I know what he’s on yet lol. I respond by saying I do and that he won’t like this game as he realizes I’m on LED dredge. I turn one flayer him game one then game two dread return elesh norn on turn three. Quick game so I was able to get food while everyone was playing.

Round 3 vs Omni-tell

I’m always surprised at how easy this match up is. With the number of counterspells they pack I would Imagine they would be a tougher game but it’s never the case lol. The guy I’m playing is a regular at the store the tourni took place at like me so I know what he’s on. I win the die roll and keep a hand with putrid Imp, led, breakthrough, city, city, stinkweed imp, looting. I lead off by playing a putrid Imp, he responds by forcing it pitching a preordain. On his turn he plays an island then ponders… doesn’t like any of the three so he ships them back shuffles and draws a card then passes. On my turn I draw another stinkweed imp, play my second land play the LED, cast breakthrough and crack the LED after maintaining priority, I ask if the spell resolves and he says it does.. at which point I do my dredge shenanigans and flayer him after taking show and tell and enter the infinite out of his hand wit therapies.

Sideboarding
-1 Flayer
+1 Iona

This game was honestly hilarious… as I started out mulling into oblivion. My seven was aweful, my six worse, my five was garbage, and my four cards were study, thug, land, land. He plays an Island and ponders then passes. I draw an Iona off the top… laugh a lil on the inside play my land and careful study, he forces the study pitching a brainstorm. His turn he drops a sol land and play’s show and tell … I put my card face down and say I die to an emrakul and he asks why. We flip our cards and he has revealed omniscience where I reveal Iona… lol I beat him down with her to win the game.

Round 4 vs Junk

I’ve never seen this dude and don’t know what he’s on. Lot of new people came in to play apparently. I win the die roll and elect to go first, I mull to six and my hand was putrid led, troll, gemstone, gemstone, breakthrough, breakthrough. I play the gemstone, the led, go through the dredging motions and reveal some narcos and therapies with some bridges. I flashback therapy on him and he just scoops… he stated he was already behind at the point and would rather just conceal info for game two… so just like that were on to game two lol.

I go fearless for this game as I have no idea what he’s on. I was tempted to bring it natures claim’s as a catch all but figured there was always game three. I mull to six again with putrid imp, thug , bridge, ichorid, city of brass. He plays a deathrite shaman and passes -_ -… I draw a troll off the top, play my putrid imp then pass. On his turn he fetches into a swamp, then thoughtseizes me… He takes my bridge and puts it into the yard of all things which I thought was weird and passes. At the end of his turn I dump a thug into the yard. He eats it, in response to the deathrite I dump the troll. He surgically extracts it - _ -… so I’m left to draw a card. On his turn he surgically extracts my bridges and drops another deathrite so I’m never in this game at all.

Game three
-1 tarnished citadel
-1 Putrid Imp
+2 Nether Shadow

I mull to six again and keep, was careful study, looting, two stinkweeds, cephalid coliseum, LED. My opponent had mulled to five so I felt pretty good. I play LED, land, study crack the LED… I dredge about twenty cards revealing two narco’s a bridge, an ichorid and two therapies… He let’s the narco’s resolve and they hit the battlefield. I flashback a therapy naming deathrite shaman and get one out of his hand, the rest of the cards were two fetches, knight of the reliquary, and goyf. He plays a land and passes. I dredge more getting another bridge and two ichorids. Therapy away his goyf seeing he had drawn another knight. I attack for two and have two summoning sick zombies and pass.He draws, plays a deathrite and passes. I bring back an ichorid, dredge another stinkweed imp getting a flayer. I attack then dread return flayer for the kill. I ask if his five was worth it and he said if given a chance he could have bogged me with kotr turn three and that was about it.

Round 5 vs RIP Miracles

This was against my friend and this matchup is nigh impossible. He has counterspells for my combo, terminus for my zombie hordes, and maindeck rest in peace. Game one he goes first and plays RIP turn two… nothing I could do. Game I draw a nut hand but it dies to his force of will, and he proceeds to play RIP lol.

Overall I was pretty happy with the day. Got paired against a lot of favorable match-ups outside of the finals and the sideboard was decent. Not sure how I feel about probes… was testing them this day to see if they made the deck faster and outside of the goblins game I didn’t use them. Deck was hot all day though. Beat decks I was supposed to beat and lost to what I was supposed to. Fav moment was dropping iona off of omnitells show and tell lol.


Congrats on the finish!
how is this sideboard doing for you?

[raikenxy]

Congrats on the finish!
how is this sideboard doing for you?

Thank you, and the sideboard is iffy. I don't normally run the probes and wanted to put them in to see how they would work in testing. I added them in a rather easy match up against goblins and the one I saw did what it was supposed to do in providing me a free dredge and cabal therapy info. Nether shadows are occasional mvps as they allow me the flexibility to play my ichorids or narco's against surgical's. The rest of the board is pretty standard stuff, ancient grudge might find it's way out as I haven't played against deathblade in my area in a long time. I'm going to test out ingot chewer and whispmare as my buddy does play RIP miracles, and more and more chalice decks are beginning to pop up. I didn't play any of them but i know there was at least one stompy deck, two MUDs and and a tezz control at the local.

currently i've been trying to think of ways to make my deck faster against deathrite shaman decks when on the draw game two. The only thing i've come up with is being to cycle street wraith and i don't wanna pull the trigger on adding four of those to the sideboard just yet so if anyone has idea's on this though I'd love to hear them.

Pithing needles are great somedays and horrible others. But i would say they are pretty good at what their supposed to do, either naming deathrite or nihil spellbomb or any artifact based hate. However I could easily see cutting them in favor of something more geared to making the deck faster.

Iona and Elesh are just too good. They both just answer so many decks I feel running them both in the side is respectable.

[Vlad Teppes]

Thank you, and the sideboard is iffy. I don't normally run the probes and wanted to put them in to see how they would work in testing. I added them in a rather easy match up against goblins and the one I saw did what it was supposed to do in providing me a free dredge and cabal therapy info. Nether shadows are occasional mvps as they allow me the flexibility to play my ichorids or narco's against surgical's. The rest of the board is pretty standard stuff, ancient grudge might find it's way out as I haven't played against deathblade in my area in a long time. I'm going to test out ingot chewer and whispmare as my buddy does play RIP miracles, and more and more chalice decks are beginning to pop up. I didn't play any of them but i know there was at least one stompy deck, two MUDs and and a tezz control at the local.

currently i've been trying to think of ways to make my deck faster against deathrite shaman decks when on the draw game two. The only thing i've come up with is being to cycle street wraith and i don't wanna pull the trigger on adding four of those to the sideboard just yet so if anyone has idea's on this though I'd love to hear them.

Pithing needles are great somedays and horrible others. But i would say they are pretty good at what their supposed to do, either naming deathrite or nihil spellbomb or any artifact based hate. However I could easily see cutting them in favor of something more geared to making the deck faster.

Iona and Elesh are just too good. They both just answer so many decks I feel running them both in the side is respectable.


I like chain of vapor when I'm blind boarding, even tough it's situational, it can bounce a DR shaman and any other permanent hate, and any explosive hand can take down a DR shaman before it does too much damage to us, but he's clearly a problem to the deck, but IDK if we must have a card in our SB to deal with him...

[Pandemic21]

I'm looking to buy a Dredge deck; however, I don't have $400 to drop of LEDs at the moment. (Yes, I realize that the resulting deck will be suboptimal - however, things like bills and car payments need to come first.)

After playing a bit on Cockatrice my opinion is that the 60 should contain 0 Dread Returns and (obviously) 0 reanimation targets. The SB should have 2-3 Dread Returns, 2 Ionas, and 2 Elesh Norns. If either of those opinions are incorrect, please let me know.

Does anybody have any suggestions on a 75 that *could* perform decently, and easily switch over to a standard LED build after I have the disposable income?

[Vlad Teppes]

I'm looking to buy a Dredge deck; however, I don't have $400 to drop of LEDs at the moment. (Yes, I realize that the resulting deck will be suboptimal - however, things like bills and car payments need to come first.)

After playing a bit on Cockatrice my opinion is that the 60 should contain 0 Dread Returns and (obviously) 0 reanimation targets. The SB should have 2-3 Dread Returns, 2 Ionas, and 2 Elesh Norns. If either of those opinions are incorrect, please let me know.

Does anybody have any suggestions on a 75 that *could* perform decently, and easily switch over to a standard LED build after I have the disposable income?

when I didin't had the LEDs I used 3 firestorm and an fourth breaktrough instead, and my sideboard was:

1- elesh norn grand cenobite
1- Iona shield of Emeria
1- ray of revelation
2- ancient grudge
2- Dread return
2- Ashen ghoul
3- thoughtseize
3- chain of vapor

It was decent at the time but I will admit that firestorm is a SB card and not a main deck one, and can be a dead draw sometimes (mainly against decks that run no creatures at all such as storm or belcher) but IMO it's the best repleacement for LED at the time, try it out! and good luck with the deck mate!

[Rook1e]

So i finally caved in and got some LED's

Can someone tell me how this should effect my sideboard? My current sideboard looks like this (without LED's):


Sideboard (15)
1x Ashen Rider
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4x Firestorm
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
4x Nature's Claim
2x Pithing Needle

Also, if possible, please explain why and when the cards are needed

Another thing also. What is the reason for Flayer as DR target instead of Zealot/Griselbrand (My current 'package')?

Thanks in advance! :)

[chlb]

Another thing also. What is the reason for Flayer as DR target instead of Zealot/Griselbrand (My current 'package')?

Flayer + 2 DR + Troll (or 2nd Flayer if you are playing two) allows you to kill your opponent on the spot without having to rely on attacking with your horde of zombies. You reanimate Flayer (dome opponent for 4), then reanimate Troll (you can sac Flayer for DR, doming opponent for additional 5). Troll enters the battefield, dome opponent for millions and win.

[Rook1e]

Flayer + 2 DR + Troll (or 2nd Flayer if you are playing two) allows you to kill your opponent on the spot without having to rely on attacking with your horde of zombies. You reanimate Flayer (dome opponent for 4), then reanimate Troll (you can sac Flayer for DR, doming opponent for additional 5). Troll enters the battefield, dome opponent for millions and win.

I got that part :) But i'm just not sure if it is better (i.e. faster) than Zealot/Griselbrand? Which situations is it that hinders our attack?

Also, do you have any recommendations for my sideboard?

[chlb]

You need to get enough zombies for the zealot rush to be lethal, with flayer you can kill with only one bridge in the graveyard. Flayer also works if opponent has something like Elephant Grass or Peacekeeper in play.

As for the sideboard, if you want extra help with the reanimation plan and battling against Surgical Extractions, I recommend trying out either Nether Shadow or Ashen Ghoul. I am at work so cannot write long posts, might write more in the evening if I have time. HammafistRoob had a good looking sideboard posted with commentary a couple of pages back.

[Rook1e]

Okay.. I'm convinced ^^

How does this look then (both Main and SB):

Creature (23)
2x Flayer of the Hatebound
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
3x Golgari Thug
3x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
3x Putrid Imp
4x Stinkweed Imp

Enchantment (4)
4x Bridge from Below

Artifact (4)
4x Lion's Eye Diamond

Sorcery (17)
3x Breakthrough
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Careful Study
2x Dread Return
4x Faithless Looting

Land (12)
4x Cephalid Coliseum
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine

Sideboard (15)
1x Ancient Grudge
3x Chain of Vapor
1x Dread Return
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3x Firestorm
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
2x Nether Shadow
3x Thoughtseize

[Vlad Teppes]

Okay.. I'm convinced ^^

How does this look then (both Main and SB):

Creature (23)
2x Flayer of the Hatebound
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
3x Golgari Thug
3x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
3x Putrid Imp
4x Stinkweed Imp

Enchantment (4)
4x Bridge from Below

Artifact (4)
4x Lion's Eye Diamond

Sorcery (17)
3x Breakthrough
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Careful Study
2x Dread Return
4x Faithless Looting

Land (12)
4x Cephalid Coliseum
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine

Sideboard (15)
1x Ancient Grudge
3x Chain of Vapor
1x Dread Return
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3x Firestorm
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
2x Nether Shadow
3x Thoughtseize

If you like the Dread return package the deck is really good,, but I would go - 1 flayer of the hatebound and + 1 rainbow land (tarnished citadel or undiscovered paradise) for added consistency (less mulligans), your sideboard is really good, I like it a lot

[HammafistRoob]

Has anyone here tried Forsaken City recently? The only person I know of that has tried them is Parcher and that was over a year ago. It has the same awkward drawback of undiscovered paradise in that it sometimes can't be used for a turn 2 Coliseum activation. My first thought is that it's probably bad, but Citadel hurts a lot when you're trying to race Delver+ disruption.

About sideboarding, I don't believe I've seen an optimal sideboard yet. Every card at our disposal either slows us down or is to narrow for my liking. Where's my Leyline of the Grave wizards?

[JPoJohnson]

Sitting there not being a Leyline it appears: Ground Seal

[HammafistRoob]

It's painfully slow though, and having two lands after a mull or two is pretty hard. If it was one mana, it'd be borderline broken in this deck.

[raikenxy]

If you like the Dread return package the deck is really good,, but I would go - 1 flayer of the hatebound and + 1 rainbow land (tarnished citadel or undiscovered paradise) for added consistency (less mulligans), your sideboard is really good, I like it a lot

I'd agree with this advice for your list, you only actually need one dread return target in your main if you run it at all, the deck is still a a walking dead overrunning machine. 1 flayer and 2 dread returns keep the consistency at a level where both plans are viable and provides you a mide game moment where you say "oh, i win now"

the only diff between your main and mine is that i run three lootings instead of four and four putrid imps instead of three, i do that only since i'd rather dredge into looting then have it in my hand with a cephalid coliseum as my only land but this choice is stirctly personal preference.

i think you can cut the thir dread return in your board and ad the fourth breakthrough for your combo matchups, i've only ever wanted two and your deck is fast enough to get to one if your boading into either elesh or iona. i've never tested thoughtseize in the baord so i can't comment on that, but i love nether shadow in the board

[Rook1e]

I'd agree with this advice for your list, you only actually need one dread return target in your main if you run it at all, the deck is still a a walking dead overrunning machine. 1 flayer and 2 dread returns keep the consistency at a level where both plans are viable and provides you a mide game moment where you say "oh, i win now"

the only diff between your main and mine is that i run three lootings instead of four and four putrid imps instead of three, i do that only since i'd rather dredge into looting then have it in my hand with a cephalid coliseum as my only land but this choice is stirctly personal preference.

i think you can cut the thir dread return in your board and ad the fourth breakthrough for your combo matchups, i've only ever wanted two and your deck is fast enough to get to one if your boading into either elesh or iona. i've never tested thoughtseize in the baord so i can't comment on that, but i love nether shadow in the board

I will definitely cut the third DR in the SB. On Nether Shadow, i've actually not tried them yet, just put them in there on a friends advice. But i've yet to figure out which MU's they are going in against :D

[Vlad Teppes]

Has anyone here tried Forsaken City recently? The only person I know of that has tried them is Parcher and that was over a year ago. It has the same awkward drawback of undiscovered paradise in that it sometimes can't be used for a turn 2 Coliseum activation. My first thought is that it's probably bad, but Citadel hurts a lot when you're trying to race Delver+ disruption.

About sideboarding, I don't believe I've seen an optimal sideboard yet. Every card at our disposal either slows us down or is to narrow for my liking. Where's my Leyline of the Grave wizards?

Dredge's sideboard is a hard matter to discuss as we don't build our sideboards like any other deck in the format does.
I've seen some crazy stuff like Stiffle and ground seal in some sideboards and the ppl who used them could swear they worked fine, I've never tested them myself but I don't think they will be any good in dredge, normaly dredge sideboard is composed of:

Extra parts of the deck: It's normal to find the fourth or third piece of breaktrough, Ichorid or cabal therapy sitting in the board for especifc matchups

Dread return/ DR targets: Ppl who don't use dread return main can use then as a plan B in the sideboard and those who use it main deck often have some extra targets in the board

Anti hate: This varies from player to player, many don't even use anti hate at all, and others like me likes to have some anti hate to combat the increasing "dredge hosers", normal pieces of anti hate are:

Pithing needle (permanent)
Nature's claim (artifacts and enchantments)
Ancient grudge (Artifacts, has flashback)
Ray of revelation ( Enchantments, has flashback)
Ingot Chewer ( Artifacts, dodges chalice and spell pierce among others)
Wispmare ( enchantments, dodges chalice and spell pierce among others)
Chain of Vapor ( any nonland permanent,but it can be chained back)

Disruption Thoughtseize, duress and unmask can make some appearances should the player need a proative answer to hate or combo

Removal to take out scaveging ooze and DR shaman, normally firestorm fills the slot but darkblast can show up too to destroy a sick shaman or X/1 creatures

extra creatures Ashen ghoul and nether shadow can fill the slot should surgical extraction/ extirpate threatens to take all your recursive creatures away from you, they also compliment the Dread return plan.

grave hate It's normal to dredge players to dedicate some slots in the sb for grave hate, it normally varies from light hate ( purify the grave, memory's journey) to Leyline of the void


The post was long but it's normally the pattern I see when searching for dredge lists from recent top 8s.

[HammafistRoob]

I'm well aware of what pieces people have used, I just question the effectiveness of them is all. Diluting the deck by siding in a bunch of anti-hate has never really worked out for me, and siding in only 4 pieces doesn't really get you anywhere consistently.

Also, somebody said they play 3 Lootings? That is definitely not correct, having 8 cards that draw and discard is undoubtedly the way to go. Pimp is fine, but the only thing he does is discard, and feed Ichorids, but I've never had a problem feeding them with 3 or 2 Pimps. Even when I had no Imps main, very rarely did I have trouble bringing back Ichorids. Your focus shouldn't be on bringing stuff back, it should be on getting to that point in the first place, i.e dredging a fuckton of cards.

[raikenxy]

I'm well aware of what pieces people have used, I just question the effectiveness of them is all. Diluting the deck by siding in a bunch of anti-hate has never really worked out for me, and siding in only 4 pieces doesn't really get you anywhere consistently.

Also, somebody said they play 3 Lootings? That is definitely not correct, having 8 cards that draw and discard is undoubtedly the way to go. Pimp is fine, but the only thing he does is discard, and feed Ichorids, but I've never had a problem feeding them with 3 or 2 Pimps. Even when I had no Imps main, very rarely did I have trouble bringing back Ichorids. Your focus shouldn't be on bringing stuff back, it should be on getting to that point in the first place, i.e dredging a fuckton of cards.

putrid imp does that by putting dredgers in your graveyard, acting as a body to sac to cabal therapy, and allows you to play around gravehate... so saying his only focus in the deck is to bring back ichorid is wrong. and saying his only use is to discard is kinda redundant ... being able to discard our hand is actually a pretty relevant ability ... i'd rather use ichorid to set up a careful study or breakthrough then use a careful study to put my dredgers in the yard... especially when the goal is to dredge a fuckton of cards since you've effectively saved your draw spell to dredge.

[Vlad Teppes]

putrid imp does that by putting dredgers in your graveyard, acting as a body to sac to cabal therapy, and allows you to play around gravehate... so saying his only focus in the deck is to bring back ichorid is wrong. and saying his only use is to discard is kinda redundant ... being able to discard our hand is actually a pretty relevant ability ... i'd rather use ichorid to set up a careful study or breakthrough then use a careful study to put my dredgers in the yard... especially when the goal is to dredge a fuckton of cards since you've effectively saved your draw spell to dredge.

got your point, but draw spells are the premier targets for discard and counterspells,and Pimp is horrible in multiples (draw spells on the other hand are awsome), but you definitely got a good point, Pimp can work well in the graveyard (ichorid food) is cabal therapy food and is a repetitive discard outlet and beater, I wouldn't run any less than 3.

[Tombstalker]

We interrupt this regularly scheduled program to bring you..

Pandemic21 please check your private messages.

Sorry bout that folks we now return you to the thread at hand. :-)

[slave]

I'm looking to buy a Dredge deck; however, I don't have $400 to drop of LEDs at the moment. (Yes, I realize that the resulting deck will be suboptimal - however, things like bills and car payments need to come first.)

After playing a bit on Cockatrice my opinion is that the 60 should contain 0 Dread Returns and (obviously) 0 reanimation targets. The SB should have 2-3 Dread Returns, 2 Ionas, and 2 Elesh Norns. If either of those opinions are incorrect, please let me know.

Does anybody have any suggestions on a 75 that *could* perform decently, and easily switch over to a standard LED build after I have the disposable income?

I agree about Dread Return being a matter of opinion > Quadlaser works fine without them after all.
For me, before I got the LED's, I tested a few different options, including Tirless Tribe, Street Wraith & Gitaxian Probe.
All three had merit, although Street Wraith being an uncounterable cycle/Dredge had a slight edge I think, considering it works well with Ichorid also.

Regarding fighting hate;
I find this is very opinionated, and since we're all facing a variety of different hate depending on where you are, player preference and of course what decks are popular around you;
I don't think there will ever be an *optimal* jack-of-all-trades sideboard. Ever.

[Vlad Teppes]

I agree about Dread Return being a matter of opinion > Quadlaser works fine without them after all.
For me, before I got the LED's, I tested a few different options, including Tirless Tribe, Street Wraith & Gitaxian Probe.
All three had merit, although Street Wraith being an uncounterable cycle/Dredge had a slight edge I think, considering it works well with Ichorid also.

Regarding fighting hate;
I find this is very opinionated, and since we're all facing a variety of different hate depending on where you are, player preference and of course what decks are popular around you;
I don't think there will ever be an *optimal* jack-of-all-trades sideboard. Ever.

While this is true, when you compare the recent results of the deck ( the one using the same list, or similar list) it's visible that we are getting somewhere of a pattern in our sideboards. I still belive that there's a card in this enormous pool that will solve some of our problems but we didn't found it yet

BTW we are back in DTB! I don't know if this is good for us tough, but it's a sign that all this hate isn't pushing the deck back!

[Final Fortune]

got your point, but draw spells are the premier targets for discard and counterspells,and Pimp is horrible in multiples (draw spells on the other hand are awsome), but you definitely got a good point, Pimp can work well in the graveyard (ichorid food) is cabal therapy food and is a repetitive discard outlet and beater, I wouldn't run any less than 3.

Putrid Imp and to a lesser extent Tireless Tribe aren't critical engines in Dredge, I think it was Breathweapon who advocated removing Putrid Imps entirely and relying completely on your opponent to always choose to play first in order to move directly into the DDD strategy with +4 cards in the deck? Given the success of Manaless Dredge, It would stand to reason there is still some kind of hybrid out there that would obviate the need for Putrid Imp altogether.

I'd still rather not be cold to a Relic of Progenitus tho' and think Imp and Tribe get a bad rap IMO.

[Dice_Box]

I have been thinking about this deck on and off for a while, want to take a break from what I normally play and pull this put of its box, but I want to get some views on something first.

I run a Quad list, with one less Imp and Thug for 2 Lands. This means I have my Dread Returns in the side with some targets. But there for lies the rub. I think, if I am going to be honest, I only have space in the deck for either the combo or Hate. So what do people rate higher, hate or Dread?

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[Vlad Teppes]

I have been thinking about this deck on and off for a while, want to take a break from what I normally play and pull this put of its box, but I want to get some views on something first.

I run a Quad list, with one less Imp and Thug for 2 Lands. This means I have my Dread Returns in the side with some targets. But there for lies the rub. I think, if I am going to be honest, I only have space in the deck for either the combo or Hate. So what do people rate higher, hate or Dread?

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

I say it depends on what kind of hate you are going to face, if you only face surgical extraction, relic of progenitus and tormod's crypt I say that a dread return package can be excelent

on the other hand, if graffdiger cage is a problem I say go for the anti hate.

Have in mind that anti hate can also be used against common cards in legacy ( Batterskull, jittle, etc) while dread return requires some set up to be used

[Vandalize]

Sup guys, I've taken Dredge to a local tournament. After a LONG time playing Canadian Thresh, I still have my mojo with Ichorid, and went 4-0.

List:
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 Nether Shadow
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Dread Return
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

It went as it follows:

Shardless BUG (2-0)

G1: I mulligan to 6 on the play, and had a pretty reasonable turn 2 Coliseum. Started with Gemstone into Looting and dumped Troll and Narcomoeba. He starts with Thoughtseize, taking my Cabal Therapy (pretty much the only card he could take). I dredge the troll into two Stinkweed Imps, and Cephalid Coliseum for the goodies. I make 6 zombies after 3 Therapies, first misses on Maelstrom Pulse, but hit Brainstorm and Shardless Agent. He draws for the turn and concedes.

-4 Lion's Eye Diamond +4 Pithing Needle

G2: I keep my 7 with PImp, Careful Study and Needle but no Dredger. He starts with Deathrite Shaman. I needle it. Then he Brainstorm and fetches, playing another Deathrite, and attacking for 1. I draw a land for the turn and my Careful Study gives me Thug and a Breakthrough. Play PImp and pass. He plays another Brainstorm into fetch, digging for that Abrupt Decay, but isn't able to find it. I dump Thug EOT, and dredge into nothing. Dump him again and Breakthrough for X=0, and chain dredge into every possible Bridge and Narcomoeba in my deck as well as the Dread Return, but only 1 Therapy. I name Maelstrom Pulse again (pretty much the only card that could beat me) and miss again, and make a LOT of zombies, as well as a 11/11 Troll. He concedes.

UWR Delver (2-1)

G1: This match was really Canadian Thresh style. I'm on the draw with a pretty good hand, Careful Study, Troll, LED and Land. He plays fetch -> Volcanic Island -> Ponder. I play City of Brass into LED and it takes a Force of Will. Then my Careful Study meets a Daze and I'm out of the game.

I didn't SB (wasn't sure what to board against, RiP or Surgical)

G2: I start with Citadel into Therapy naming Delver, hitting two of them and I see a RiP in his hand and no permission. He goes for fetch, pass. I play Cephalid Coliseum, hardcast Narcomoeba and nail the RiP. He plays another land and passes. I draw PImp for the turn, and pass. He bolts my PImp, but I discard Bridge and Stinkweed Imp in response, getting a Zombie. He plays Stoneforge into Batterskull and pass. I dredge Stinkweed into two Trolls, and Cephalid Coliseum into another Narcomoeba, 2 Bridges, 1 Therapy and 1 Ichorid. I Therapy the skull, and pass. He plays Brainstorm, fetches and pass. I return Ichorid, and and attack with 3 tokens + Ichorid. He blocks Ichorid (misplay) and puts Sword of Fire and Ice into play with Mystic's ability, and I get 3 zombies from that attack step. He draws and plays Geist of the Saint Traft, but he's too far behind at that point, with 11 life and no mana to equip Geist on the same turn.

-4 Lion's Eye Diamond +4 Chain of Vapor

G3: He mulligans to five and I mulligan to a REALLY good six, with 2 Lands, 1 Troll, 1 Bridge, 1 Looting and 1 Breakthrough. He goes land -> Delver. I go land -> Looting, resolves. He Brainstorms to flip his Delver, and attacks me for 3, then plays another land. I dredge into Stinkweed Imp and 2 Ichorids. Play another land, and cast Breakthrough for X=0, resolves. I dredge 2/3 of my deck, and hit 3 Therapies (1 for RiP, 1 for Lightning Bolt and 1 for Umezawa's Jitte). He has his lonesome Delver against 8 tokens and 2 Ichorids on standby. He draws for the turn and concedes.

ANT (2-1) (all three games took us 5 minutes, and 15 minutes shuffling).

G1: I'm on the play, and he kills me on his turn 1 with Land -> 2x Dark Ritual -> Ad Nauseam.

-1 Ichorid -1 PImp +1 Dread Return +1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

G2: I turn 1 him on the play with, bringing Iona for Black, and he concedes.

G3: He plays Preordain on his T1. I turn 1 him again, with a GODLY hand (Gemstone Mine, LED, LED, Looting, Breakthrough, Golgari Grave-Troll, Golgari Grave-Troll). I dredge 50 cards in 1 turn, and leave him with a lonesome Polluted Delta after 4 Therapies, and Iona on Blue.

Shardless BUG (2-0)

G1: He mulls to five, and start with a weak fetch -> Ancestral Vision. I start with Careful Study, and set up a T2 Coliseum. He draws and plays Deathrite Shaman, pass. I go nuts with Coliseum, cast 3 Therapies leaving him with Liliana and lands, making 6 zombies. He draws for the turn, and Abrupt Decay one token. I return 1 Ichorid (he exiles another in my upkeep, going to 21 life), attack for 13. He draws, but can't find his 1-of Maelstrom Pulse and concedes.

-4 Lion's Eye Diamond +4 Pithing Needle

G2: I keep a one lander with Needle, Breakthrough and Thug. He goes for T1 Nihil Spellbomb, I needle it. He plays Baleful Strix, pass. I draw Looting and cast it, dumping Narcomoeba and Thug. He plays Shardless Agent and cascades into another Spellbomb (lol). I cross my fingers, hoping to dredge another dredger, and I do. I play Breakthrough for X=0, and that's game.



Maindeck was really good, I mulligan only one no-lander. I didn't board Nether Shadow in all games, because I saw 0 Surgical Extracion. Still, they're very good, and I won't replace them for a while. Ancient Grudges has been really useless (for the past two months, at least). I might trim it down to 1. Maybe fit Elesh Norn, or something like that.

[Michael Keller]

Seems like Pithing Needle has been working wonders out of the sideboard against a lot of decks unprepared for it coming in.

Nice work.

[Dice_Box]

Yes, I am noticing that too. I think it's because it can hit all the most common Art hate (save Cage) and hit the two most common Creature hate. Since these days prople are starting to think DRS is their saving grace with Ooze as backup if needed, Needle may just be the best answer right now. I am going to side it up this week.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[HammafistRoob]

Nice job dude. A few comments for you to think about.
°Round 1 game 1, if you have access to multiple Therapies, I wouldn't name Pulse with the first because it's usually only a one of. Since he's tapped out I would name Brainstorm first here.
°Round 2 Game 2, that was a ballsy attack and he should have blocked a zombie with the Mystic and plopped in the sword, exiling your Bridges. It worked out for you though. For sideboard games against UWR Tempo I would expect either Tormod's or RiP. Surgical has been slightly on the decline, it is still the most played gravehate though.

You said that Shadows were useless, but you have Ghouls in the board, which do you play? I'm also really liking Needle right now, the only way they can really kill it is Decay, and they would most likely be tapping out to do so which means no Shaman or Scooze activations for at least a turn. For that reason I would say it's a tiny bit less effective against things that need no mana to activate, it is a rare situation though since most decks play only 3 artifact hate and 3 Decay.

[Vandalize]

You said that Shadows were useless, but you have Ghouls in the board, which do you play? I'm also really liking Needle right now, the only way they can really kill it is Decay, and they would most likely be tapping out to do so which means no Shaman or Scooze activations for at least a turn. For that reason I would say it's a tiny bit less effective against things that need no mana to activate, it is a rare situation though since most decks play only 3 artifact hate and 3 Decay.

That was a typo. I'm playing Nether Shadow.

Yeah, and they usually board out Abrupt Decay (pretty useless against Dredge).

[HammafistRoob]

Well, it's probably better than Jace and Lili against us. I'm not sure of their boarding plan though.

[meffeo]

Hi guys, first topic on this forum.

I play dredge since six months, nothing but a couple of tournaments.
Here's my list:

Creatures:23
4 Putrid Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

Spells:23
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
1 Darkblast
3 Winds of Change
4 Bridge from Below
3 Dread Return

Lands:14
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise

Sideboard:15
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Wispmare
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Angel of Despair
1 Blazing Archon
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

My meta is really combo-ish, that's why I've decided to put the three Winds of Change in mb. It's really a great tech, it could ruin Ant and Tes's plans.
Instead of the angel of despair sb I could probably insert the new theros creature which exiles a permanent as it etb and ltb.

I was wondering also about 3 pithing needle for the sb. DRS is seen everywhere and it could be painful if played too early (not to mention tormod/relic/ooze...).

It's the right sb in your opinion, thinking at the combo-ish and u-based meta? The last tournament went 2-3, lost against goblins, canadian, ant and won against ur delver and maverick.

Thanks in advance and keep dredging

[Vlad Teppes]

Hi guys, first topic on this forum.

I play dredge since six months, nothing but a couple of tournaments.
Here's my list:

Creatures:23
4 Putrid Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

Spells:23
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
1 Darkblast
3 Winds of Change
4 Bridge from Below
3 Dread Return

Lands:14
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise

Sideboard:15
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Wispmare
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Angel of Despair
1 Blazing Archon
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

My meta is really combo-ish, that's why I've decided to put the three Winds of Change in mb. It's really a great tech, it could ruin Ant and Tes's plans.
Instead of the angel of despair sb I could probably insert the new theros creature which exiles a permanent as it etb and ltb.

I was wondering also about 3 pithing needle for the sb. DRS is seen everywhere and it could be painful if played too early (not to mention tormod/relic/ooze...).

It's the right sb in your opinion, thinking at the combo-ish and u-based meta? The last tournament went 2-3, lost against goblins, canadian, ant and won against ur delver and maverick.

Thanks in advance and keep dredging

Ok, where do I begin, while you have a good LEDless list it has some flaws, no faithless looting is a error (even in LEDless), as it is a discard outlet and a draw spell ( and situational flashback), also darkblast is not a great card in a combo filled metagame (dredge 3 is pretty lackluster)

I would go -3 winds of change, - 1 darkblast for +4 faithless looting fo the main board

for the sideboard I would - 1 blazing archon, - 3 nature's claim and - 1 angel of despair for + 3 winds of change (combo matchups), + 1 ancient grudge and + 1 ashen rider

some firestorm and elesh norn are great against creature combo (elves and belcher using empty the warens)

[meffeo]

Ok, where do I begin, while you have a good LEDless list it has some flaws, no faithless looting is a error (even in LEDless), as it is a discard outlet and a draw spell ( and situational flashback), also darkblast is not a great card in a combo filled metagame (dredge 3 is pretty lackluster)

I would go -3 winds of change, - 1 darkblast for +4 faithless looting fo the main board

for the sideboard I would - 1 blazing archon, - 3 nature's claim and - 1 angel of despair for + 3 winds of change (combo matchups), + 1 ancient grudge and + 1 ashen rider

some firestorm and elesh norn are great against creature combo (elves and belcher using empty the warens)

Actually I tried a list with +4 faithless looting, -3 winds, -1 darkblast and I was very disappointed. I've tried also a version with -1 dread return +1 griselbrand / +1 fkz but at the end I prefered the one with the Flayer because he could get over the combat phase.

Still no space for pithing needle?

[Vlad Teppes]

Actually I tried a list with +4 faithless looting, -3 winds, -1 darkblast and I was very disappointed. I've tried also a version with -1 dread return +1 griselbrand / +1 fkz but at the end I prefered the one with the Flayer because he could get over the combat phase.

Still no space for pithing needle?

Playing dredge in a combo meta without LED is going to be disappointing to some degree.
building a good sideboard is a very difficult task, but if you want Phitting needle, try cutting some of the DR targets (except Iona), or some anti hate, but I doubt it will help against storm and show and tell ( you can lock sneak attack tough), also, faithless looting is better against DR shaman than those 3 dread returns that you use, having a different wincon is nice but you are sacrificing too many slots to do it when draw spells would kill your opponent much faster and make you better racing said combo decks

[meffeo]

Playing dredge in a combo meta without LED is going to be disappointing to some degree.
building a good sideboard is a very difficult task, but if you want Phitting needle, try cutting some of the DR targets (except Iona), or some anti hate, but I doubt it will help against storm and show and tell ( you can lock sneak attack tough), also, faithless looting is better against DR shaman than those 3 dread returns that you use, having a different wincon is nice but you are sacrificing too many slots to do it when draw spells would kill your opponent much faster and make you better racing said combo decks

Atm I can't afford the Leds, that's why I've decided to cut the lootings.

My decision to add another dredger (darkblast but it could be also a lftl) was drived by the willing to add more "endurance" to the deck, and the winds of change played in turn 2 could also let me dredge some cards, just as a looting, but with the addition of:
1- discombobulate opponent's hand
2- shuffle dead cards in my hand

Do you guys think that the looting are better than the winds? Flashbacking without led is almost impossible

[HardBrain]

hi, this is my current build:

1 Griselbrand
1 flame-Kin Zealot
2 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Dread Return
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting

4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

SIDE still testing.

In main i put two other buddy than most of players in this time. Flame Kin Zealot ;) old friend who gives us chance to Win in 1st Turn. Socond guy is Griselbrand - all games when i put him onto battlefield was on my side and simpely WIN. Any suggestions about this main?

About side: im thinking sth like this?:
3 Leyline of Sancity -countermagic
4 Leyline of the Void - mirror
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria -elves for example.
2 Elesh Norn
2 Ancient Grudge
3 firestorm

[Vlad Teppes]

hi, this is my current build:

1 Griselbrand
1 flame-Kin Zealot
2 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Dread Return
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting

4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

SIDE still testing.

In main i put two other buddy than most of players in this time. Flame Kin Zealot ;) old friend who gives us chance to Win in 1st Turn. Socond guy is Griselbrand - all games when i put him onto battlefield was on my side and simpely WIN. Any suggestions about this main?

About side: im thinking sth like this?:
3 Leyline of Sancity -countermagic
4 Leyline of the Void - mirror
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria -elves for example.
2 Elesh Norn
2 Ancient Grudge
3 firestorm

I recomend only one DR target and only 2 or even 1 Dread Return, I'm not really a fan of the card, but that's just me.

[DarkJester]

About side: im thinking sth like this?:
3 Leyline of Sancity -countermagic



Sorry, but I do not understand this part of your post. Would you explain it further, please?

[Vlad Teppes]

Leyline of sancity doesn't protect you against countermagic, it protects against disruption '-'

[HardBrain]

Leyline of sancity doesn't protect you against countermagic, it protects against disruption '-'

lololo sorrrrry obv mistake, not countermagic - i mean Combos :D sorry for that.

Ok so what you Think about return WinCon to Flamekin Zealot?
and anyone test 1 Griselbrand?

[Vlad Teppes]

lololo sorrrrry obv mistake, not countermagic - i mean Combos :D sorry for that.

Ok so what you Think about return WinCon to Flamekin Zealot?
and anyone test 1 Griselbrand?

I used 2 dread return and 1 griselbrand when I first got the deck, after my first tour I swaped griselbrand for 1 more rainbow land, then I cut one of the dread returns for more business spell, after a while I cut DR entirely.

Griselbrand is better than flamekin zealot IMO, it's an auto win vs some decks ( not to mention that flamekin can be nuked should your bridges be exiled), but if I would run a DR target main deck I would go for Flayer of the hatebound, its the better one there is now

[HardBrain]

Ok so build with Flayer are best now?...only 1 dread and 1 flayer? anyone have list preapred for next BOM?

[Dice_Box]

I personally feel like the most Dread Returns that's should be main is one. It should only be there if you run out of sideboard space. This is because your going to win 7 out of 10 first games with a blowout anyway. Why dilute the consistency of the deck for a cool combo out.

Combo outs are a game two thing. Where if your against someone that is majorly limiting your options and you just need to race, you run it. Like if your against Miracles, you want Iona down as fast as you can get her down. (That is if your going to DR over bringing in your hare combat.)

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[Vlad Teppes]

I personally feel like the most Dread Returns that's should be main is one. It should only be there if you run out of sideboard space. This is because your going to win 7 out of 10 first games with a blowout anyway. Why dilute the consistency of the deck for a cool combo out.

Combo outs are a game two thing. Where if your against someone that is majorly limiting your options and you just need to race, you run it. Like if your against Miracles, you want Iona down as fast as you can get her down. (That is if your going to DR over bringing in your hare combat.)

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

You said everything, when ppl scoop when you cast the first breaktrough with a LED on the field, why handicaping yourself with 3 winmore cards (2 DR and a target), run just 1 if you feel that u REALLY need it and put 1 or 2 more in the sideboard when you know that a match will go longer or that you need the DR target to win ( Iona, Elesh and ashen rider)

[JPoJohnson]

What's the reasoning of running Putrid Imp over Tireless Tribe? I feel like Tribe has more resilience and long game value, but no one runs it. I'm missing something.

[Dice_Box]

Ichorid flashback cost calls for a black creature. Imp fits the bill.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[Vlad Teppes]

What's the reasoning of running Putrid Imp over Tireless Tribe? I feel like Tribe has more resilience and long game value, but no one runs it. I'm missing something.

Imp is a black creature, so it counts for Ichorid ressurection, plus he's harder to block than tribe

[Juicy Karaage]

Just played in a 42 people event for 6 rounds and went to Top 4

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast
1 Dread Return
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Cabal Therapy

Sideboard
1 Dread Return
1 Elesh Norn
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Ashen Rider
4 Nature's Claim
4 Firestorm
3 Nether Shadow

Round 1 vs RUG 2-0
I won the dice roll and casted too many draw spells for him to handle, boarded in the Nether Shadows, Firestorm, a Dread Return and Ashen Rider for G2. Draw, Discard, Dredge into 4 Bridges and an Ichorid.

Round 2 vs RUG 2-0
My opponent was a friend who planned on leaving later, so he gave me the win. He still handed me my ass in that practice game.

Round 3 vs Elves 0-2
We both mulled to 6, i had a shitty hand with Gemstone Mine, Cephalid Coliseum and a Dark Blast. I kept Darkblasting everything till the mine ran out of counters, not surprisingly, i got stomped. I kept a Firestorm, City of Brass, Cephalid, and a Golgari Gravetroll. I Firestorm'd a bunch of Elves and Deathrite Shaman, throwing away the Troll which he Surgical Extraction'd that costed me the match.

Round 4 vs Elves 2-1
Well, you can pretty much guess that the Meta here is filled with Green. T1 Putrid Imp, T2 Discard 2 Stinkweed Imp the Breakthrough. In G2, i kept a slow hand for no logical reason. He GSZ for Scavenging Ooze and i scooped. G3 i kept a hand with Firestorm, Looting, Breakthrough, LED and no Dredgers. Looting into more draw spells with still no Dredger in sight. Drew into a Bridge, Narcomoeba and Cabal Therapy while my opponent builds his Elf army slowly. He finally lands a Deathrite Shaman which warranted me to use Firestorm. Still no Dredgers. Since i practically had no land and was bound to lose anyway, i casted the Breakthrough for 1 hoping to hit a Dredger and another draw spell. I did. Discarded Troll and casted another Breakthrough to dig out Elesh Norn and the remaining Narcomoebas

Round 5 vs TES 2-0
T1 Looting, T2 Breakthrough. G2, i had mulled to 5 with a hand of City of Brass, Putrid Imp, Putrid Imp, Stinkweed Imp, Stinkweed Imp, Breakthrough. He T1 Duress'd my draw spell. Top deck'd a Cephalid and dredged out Iona with 3 Narcomoeba.

Round 6 vs Maverick ID

Quarter Finals vs Elves 2-0
Yeah, my 3rd Elves opponent for the day. I mull to 5 with Cephalid, 2 Dredgers and a LED. Since i though i was losing anyway, i decided to play risky by just hoping to draw into a blue draw spell. Breakthrough saved the day. G2 i drew my Godhand. 2 LED, Breakthrough, City of Brass, Stinkweed Imp. Elesh Norn on T1

We split the Top 4 prizes since the weather did a number on most of the attendees' health, including my own:laugh:

[Vlad Teppes]

I'm going to be in a big tour this weekend, it's the bigger I've ever been, and I'm asking you guys who do you think is the better DR target in a neutral meta? Iona, elesh norn or Ashen rider? I don't know what I gonna face there and I need a reliable target in my sideboard

[raikenxy]

I'm going to be in a big tour this weekend, it's the bigger I've ever been, and I'm asking you guys who do you think is the better DR target in a neutral meta? Iona, elesh norn or Ashen rider? I don't know what I gonna face there and I need a reliable target in my sideboard

Elesh Norn has greater application as it can be used in many of the same games you'd bring in iona. Iona shines against omnitell and burn mostly, but other monocolored decks in the format rely on aether vial to cheat creatures into play so elesh norn is simply better in my opinion from that standpoint. you already are pretty much guaranteed a win versus omnitell as you're one of they're worst matchups even without iona. ashen rider is cute but honestly i see it's main use in taking out problem permanents that prevent you from attacking for the win, and honestly if that was the case i would say run flayer in the side instead as he eschews the combat step. nuetral meta i would prolly run flayer and elesh in the side. my personal preference is flayer, but elesh would be my second choice

[Que]

I'm going to be in a big tour this weekend, it's the bigger I've ever been, and I'm asking you guys who do you think is the better DR target in a neutral meta? Iona, elesh norn or Ashen rider? I don't know what I gonna face there and I need a reliable target in my sideboard

I would suggest Iona 1st before either of the other 2. SBing in Iona gives you an extra win con against decks like Storm, Elves, and Mono U Show & Tell among others. I believe it to be the most well rounded DR target in an unknown meta. I like Ashen Rider as well as it takes care of any problematic permanents such as Elephant Grass (and other propaganda type effects), Ensnaring Bridge, Dueling Grounds, Peackeeper, and a slew of other cards. Regardless if the aforementioned don't see as much play having the ability to have an out to such cards is a nice feeling.

EDIT: Or Flayer Lol. However, I don't like the idea of having to need 2 DR to have the kill.

[HammafistRoob]

The only matchups where I would want Elesh are the mirror and elves. Iona is just about as good against elves, and as Que mentioned, gives you another 'wincon' against other combo decks.

Tl;dr- Iona is the only target imo.

[Vlad Teppes]

Im my local meta, Elesh pretty much wins all by herself, I don't face too much combo decks unless I play online (MWS)
I think I gonna put Iona, as you guys said it is the most well rounded target.
thz for the feedback!

[ragamuffinvb]

Elesh Norn is an auto win versus every creature deck, monocolored or not. Merfolk, elves, deadguy ale, temp decks, goblins, death and taxes, affinity, maverick, and even has some use against BUG. the only creature that doesn't die to her is goyf, buy one, two, or three goyfs arent going to do anything when you have 9 4/4 chump blockers. If the meta is unknown i would expect it to be more creatured base then combo based as the legacy meta has been shifting more and more toward creature decks since RTR.

Iona has her moments against combo decks, but T.E.S can win around her, ANT and and OMNITELL have their issues with her. But your actually faster then hoth of those decks, cabal therapy does the work for you here and the zombies you get should just be able to clock them before they kill you.

I personally run Flayer. Not needing to rely on the combat step is pretty useful, and you really only need one DR to keep him going. Even if you only return him once, they're hand is prolly going to be empty as you've used cabal therapy to clear it of creature removal or anything business like, your ichorids when they come back attack for six. 9 damage from flayer himself off the initial return and sac, and bringing two ichorids back and attacking with them is another 12 damage, outside of blocks lol. very situational and obviously depending on board states, but i think flayer is the best.

[Dice_Box]

I don't know about you, but I tend to have more creatures than the other guy does, much faster than he does. Cutting off a colour is a great way to attack what can be played and the 2/2's can mop up after.

[HammafistRoob]

That's exactly what I meant. If you're having trouble with creatures strategies then perhaps you should revisit your mulligan strategy. Sure there are a few times where Elesh is useful, but in those matchups you need to be bringing in anti-hate as well. Iona is great because the matches where you want her, you don't need to bring in anti-hate. Over sideboarding is very dangerous with this deck as you can just ruin your own deck.

[Vlad Teppes]

I imagine I'm going to face a good portion of aggro and control there, but I don't know for sure, I only board Elesh against tribal and sometimes BUG or shardless (very rare) and I still have 3 firestorms im my SB should I need something against creatures.

I will give Iona a try this time.

[Bardu]

What is better off of the sideboard, Ashen Ghoul or Nether Shadow?

[meffeo]

Ashen ghoul needs mana, something that usually lacks in dredge.

Nether shadow needs at least 3 creatures above it, but since the dredged cards go in the gy at the same time, you decide the order so it's possible that he has something above it.

[Holly]

In my opinion it depends on your deck.
If you play with minimal lands, you might give the edge to Nether Shadow.
Another point pro Shadow would be if you're playing a DR paket and only really need the bodies to sacrifie.

On the other hand if you're playing Quadlaser-like (maybe even some lands more mainboard) you might want to give the edge to the power 3 beater in case your Ichorids get extracted.

[Dice_Box]

Thing is, what happens if the only mana you have is a Gemstone? Then you need it to fire off a draw spell, maybe a Coliseum and then you have one shot left with it. If you draw a Coliseum and use it to fire off a draw spell then your just a boned. That's 8 of our 12-14 mana so its not like these are unlikely situations when we are talking about more than half our mana base.

[Vlad Teppes]

Thing is, what happens if the only mana you have is a Gemstone? Then you need it to fire off a draw spell, maybe a Coliseum and then you have one shot left with it. If you draw a Coliseum and use it to fire off a draw spell then your just a boned. That's 8 of our 12-14 mana so its not like these are unlikely situations when we are talking about more than half our mana base.

I like Nether shadow more than ashen ghoul, but when you are going DR less the ghoul offers more damage, but it cost mana, so...
also, I allways go for the draw spell rather than the creature, the choice is obvious, but it makes ashen ghoul a dead meat in our gy

[HammafistRoob]

Rockin' Dredge at another GPT tommorow, hopefully I can manage better than 4-2(11th) this time. Wish me luck fellow Zombies.

[Que]

Good Luck!

Played at MTG Deals this past weekend. There were 49 Players at the tournament which meant 6 rounds of swiss with a cut to top 8.

I played the traditional Quadlazer Dredge list (+1 Dread Return, -1 Breakthrough)

Round 1: Shardless BUG
Games: 2-0 Match: 1-0
Round 2: RUG Delver
Games: 2-0 Match: 2-0
Round 3: Maverick
Games: 2-0 Match: 3-0
Round 4: Omniscience
Games: 2-0 Match: 4-0
Round 5: Reanimator (ID)
Games: Drw Match: 4-0-1
Round 6: Elves (ID)
Games: Drw Match: 4-0-2

So with that I make top 8. Ultimately I end up in 4th which pairs me against the Reanimator deck in the 1st round (=__=) of top 8.

Game 1: We both don't really have much. I kept a hand with Cabal Therapy, land, couple of draw spells, LED, Imp, Ichorid but no dredger. I figure since I was on the play I can cast Cabal Therapy and get a chance to nab Entomb (This is what I normally call against reanimator as its there only realiable way to get to their Elesh Norn.) Fortunately for me he doesn't have too much action outside a pair of cantrips. Eventually I draw an LED and a Dredger which allowed me to flashback a faithless looting to start to pull ahead while his brainstorms find him nothing.

Game 2: My opening hand has the coffin purge which is amazing, however, he had the turn 1 Entomb, lotus petal, reanimate into.. Griselbrand (he wanted the safer choice to recur as he was fearing a chain of vapor). Despite giving me a small opening Grisel eventually allows him to draw into a ton
more action until he eventually reanimates an Elesh to close the door.

Game 3: My opponent mulligans to 5 (Iona, Shield of Emeria, verdant Catacombs, 2x Exhume, and Entomb). My opening hand contains a land, coffin purge, draw spell, Cabal Therapy, Dredger, and some other cards. On the play I cast the Cabal Therapy naming Entomb once again and hit. He just lays the verdant and passes back. I cast my careful study to begin the fun which allowed me to draw into an LED. I wanted to remove the exhume from his hand asap before he draws into another entomb which signals me to flashback my cabal therapy off a Putrid Imp. What ended up happening was he drew additional exhume over the last two turns and I take all 4 of them leaving him with the lone Iona. I was then able to clean up from that point.

So with that victory I make Top 4 which would mean I play the same Omni player from the swiss. He admits its not the best matchup as Omni tends to be a turn or so slower, however, at this point its pretty late and we all just wanted to go home. So we split $145 a piece and call it a night. :D

If anyone has a specific question regarding any of my matches I will try to recall as best I can and answer questions. But what I wanted to talk mainly about was my SB.

The most recent incarnation of my SB:

2x Nether Shadow (Might replace these, I don't really worry too much about surgical and I haven't seen them played in my meta recently).
1x Ingot Chewer (Corner out to Cage & General artifact hoser)
1x Ancient Grudge
2x Pithing Needle
1x Dread Return
1x Ashen Rider
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Tarnished Citadel
1x Undiscovered Paradise
1x Coffin Purge (My only grave hate. Doesn't disurpt my gameplan. If I happen to open a hand with it its a nice surprise)
3x Wispmare (straight up concession to the Miracle matchup. I deem them absolutely necessary as my meta has a good number of Miracle players roaming about, also application against Maverick, UWR Delver, aka other decks with RIP out of the board)

I know I'm not playing any Nature's Claim. Let me explain. The idea is to board into a plan that doesn't stop what you're naturally wanting to do i.e.. being proactive instead of reactive. Against faster combo like Storm or Belcher I want to board in the extra DR and the Iona usually cutting an Ichorid and a Putrid Imp. It gives me an additional angle of attack.. because sometimes you have to be degenerate as well its why you play this deck. As a side note in the Storm matchup its not completely questionable to board in that Ancient Grudge as marginal as it may be sometimes they lay down an LED then cast another which allows you to cast the Grudge in response and nuke the one already in play; this should throw off their math.

Against most fair decks the idea is still to board minimally even though it seems counter intuitive with my build seeing as how I board in lands. I normally board out an ichorid and Putrid Imp for them which is usually the cut players make to their MD anyway. So with this in mind I usually board out the 3x Breakthrough and 2x LED which allows you to bring in some combination of 5 cards. Note none of this is set in stone and I'm just giving insight on the boarding strategy given my current selections. Moving on. I like to keeep in a couple of LEDs because against fair decks I still want the chance for a strong opening play and other times it acts as a means to pay for taxing counters like Spell Pierce out of RUG.

Artifacts got you down? Board in 2x Pithing Needle, Ancient Grudge, and Ingot Chewer. Echantments causing you grief? Board in those nasty little Wispmares. Surgical Extraction/Extirpate running a muck? Make life more difficult for your opponents by bringing in extra recurable creatures in Nether Shadows. Occasionally I board in the extra DR to put additional pressure on these types of effects; they cannot hit every meaningful card (Bridge From Below, Ichorid, Cabal Therapy, Dread Return, Dredgers, etc..) so usually 1 surgical will not be enough. To me it seems surgical was more annoying when it was paired with Snapcaster Mage, but thanks to DRS snappy has lost some of its allure.

Or bring up a scenario and I can give some notions as to the plan I would consider. Overall just trying to be helpful even if my decisions may not be 100% correct. This is what I've ended up with and I will provide more background as to why I've chosen these specific cards if prompted.

[HammafistRoob]

@Que- Nice job, 8-0 through swiss is very impressive! How often do you find yourself actually blowing up or nullifying opposing hate? I'm asking because it has only happened once for me in the past 2 tourneys, where I needled a Shaman, but it was irrelevant anyways as I had multiple dredgers and won with ease.

I made top8 of the gpt. There were only ~26 players or something, which was good because the store was small and prizes were guaranteed.

In the swiss I went up against Burn 2-0, SneakShow 2-0, UG12post 0-2, RUG 2-0, and ID'd with ShardlessBUG. Got paired against UBTezz in the top8 and he was 4th seed so he got the play. We both go back for 6 and he gets the nuts of turn1 Chalice turn 2 Tezz and it's soon over. Game2 I mull all the way down to 3 and never cast a spell :(. My 5 card hand was 3 Narco, 2 Ichorid lol. I probably should have played out my last match to snag 1st seed but I wasn't thinking of it at the time. The top 8 had five really favorable matchups for me with BUG, 3 RUG(1punishing) and Burn, then Tezz as a slightly unfavorable and TurboDrazi as unfavorable. The chick I beat round1 playing burn went on to the finals after taking down RUG and the Tezz player, where her and Shardless split with her taking the byes(congratz!).

I still had a good time, the tournament went smoothly and the judge was cool. With my credit and a few trades I walked out with a Bayou. Not bad considering I got only an hour of sleep for this thing.

[Vlad Teppes]

I couldn't go to my tour this weekend =/ had to visit my grandfather in the hosptial
congrats on you both on the finish!

[tyriion]

I went to BoM 8 this weekend, taking dredge for 1 trial and the main event.

My list was Quadlaser, -1 Ichorid and +1 Tarnished Citadel. In the sideboard I put no anti-hate in the trial, but swapped out the Firestorms for Needles at the main event. Also cut the Flayers for Ancient Grudge.

Results were horrid I'm sad to say.

I played the morning trial with delver after playing that deck for the first time the night before. I drop out in time for the 2nd trial, grabbing dredge.

Trial

Round 1
I get paired against an Esperblade player. I destroy him game 1 when he scoops turn 2 after I won the die roll. Game 2 he slows my hand with counters, getting a Batterskull active with a SFM removing all my bridges. Game 3 I get there, blind therapying SFM. Afterwards he tells me he has RiP, but he never mulled for them.

Round 2
Against Junk it's a grindy game 1. I kept a hand that wasn't really explosive, but had quite some redundancy. I proceed to grind him out with Ichorids and zombies. Game 2 he gets 2 Tidehollow Scullers on my drawspells after I whiff Therapy on a RiP he didn't have. So game 3 I safely let lose and kill him quickly with Elesh active.

Round 3
I meet my first ever Charbelcher match, and they're faster. He kills me turn 1 and 2, not much I could have done differently I believe.

Round 4
PainterStone and this guy gets nutty draws games 1 and 3. Two Grindstone activations on turn 3 leave me out of contention for a bye. Game 1 should have played my therapy on Servant after he dropped a turn 1 Grindstone.

I dropped the last round as it was already 10 o'clock or something and me and my mates went for dinner (both went 6-1 in the main trial playing ANT)
Will report on the main event later on.

[Que]

@Que- Nice job, 8-0 through swiss is very impressive! How often do you find yourself actually blowing up or nullifying opposing hate? I'm asking because it has only happened once for me in the past 2 tourneys, where I needled a Shaman, but it was irrelevant anyways as I had multiple dredgers and won with ease.


Yeah I would say most of my game 2 wins were on the back of them keeping a decent 7, however, it didn't come with any piece of grave hate and eventually they succumbed to the zombie horde. This is why I like the idea of using cards like Ingot Chewer and Ancient Grudge which aren't really necessary in your opening hand game 2, but you have access to them in some vain; we aren't playing with brainstorm afterall.

I did terribly at SCG LA. I didn't realize numerous graveyard based decks were actually going to be played this day. I went in there with my traditional board, however, I ran into the likes of Tin Fins as well as the mirror during the day. <__<;

Round 1 was against Jund. My opener included no land but it did have LED and Faithless looting. After his opening play was Badlands pass I went for it on my turn and overloaded the graveyard. Eventually I generated a far enough advantage to obtain the concession. Game 2 dragged on a bit with me trying to avoid committing dredgers to my yard in the face of two deathrite shaman. I was ultimately looking for any of the 2 pithing needles I had boarded in for the matchup before I could start to claw back into it. Unfortunately this does not happen and he eventually kills me with the DRs, Tarmogyf, and some Liliana disruption. Game 3 don't remember too well. I just remember a slew of zombies on the back of a generous dredge which allowed me to DR a Giant Troll.

Round 2 was the Mirror. I know I didn't have much in my sb outside of the lone Coffin Purge and the DR package with Iona shutting off black. I guess this is one of those matchups were you would rather have Elesh Norn *shrugs. The problem here was he won the die roll. Game 1 he rolls me. Game 2 I roll him with an early DR into Iona and Game 3 he gets me with the nuts. This matchup left a bitter taste. I definitely did not expect the Dredge mirror especially recently with the local decline. I really should be more mindful at bigger tournaments though.

Round 3 was BUG Tempo (Denis Ulanov Top 8 Competitor)
I knew this was a decent matchup, however, Denis is a tight player and I was still a little salty about the last loss. I take the play and lead with a faithless looting, however, it meets a FOW and then my land meets a wasteland. Denis' early disruption coupled with early pressure really made it difficult for me. Eventually he gets down a Tombstalker along with a Delver to put me on a two turn clock. I realize that if I make a big enough Troll he would have to leave the stalker or Delver home so I do just that. However that move was made on the assumption he didn't have an additional blocker in his hand. I had already seen his hand from cabal therapy earlier and knew he had a Tarmogoyf. I screwed up here and didn't Flashback Therapy to take it which throws off my math. Bone head play eventually costs me game 1 *punt. Game 2 he has some early disruption again and I never really get off the ground. I had awkward hardcast Thug wanting to Flashback Therapy, but with that trigger would be terrible. I think I try to forget the rest lol.

Round 4 Was Tin Fins. Faster combo and I again boast no grave yard hate. Not to mention he brought in Surgical Extraction which slowed me down a game where it mattered.

I decided to call it after the 1-4 showing. I still have a couple of tournaments before the legacy open in Vegas (I thought I was qualified for the Invi this season, however, my points from my SCG Top 8 didn't carry over) which should get me the preparation I need. Though admittedly I don't practice enough. ^_^;;

[Mindlash]

If anyone has a specific question regarding any of my matches I will try to recall as best I can and answer questions. But what I wanted to talk mainly about was my SB.

The most recent incarnation of my SB:

2x Nether Shadow (Might replace these, I don't really worry too much about surgical and I haven't seen them played in my meta recently).
1x Ingot Chewer (Corner out to Cage & General artifact hoser)
1x Ancient Grudge
2x Pithing Needle
1x Dread Return
1x Ashen Rider
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Tarnished Citadel
1x Undiscovered Paradise
1x Coffin Purge (My only grave hate. Doesn't disurpt my gameplan. If I happen to open a hand with it its a nice surprise)
3x Wispmare (straight up concession to the Miracle matchup. I deem them absolutely necessary as my meta has a good number of Miracle players roaming about, also application against Maverick, UWR Delver, aka other decks with RIP out of the board)

I know I'm not playing any Nature's Claim. Let me explain. The idea is to board into a plan that doesn't stop what you're naturally wanting to do i.e.. being proactive instead of reactive. Against faster combo like Storm or Belcher I want to board in the extra DR and the Iona usually cutting an Ichorid and a Putrid Imp. It gives me an additional angle of attack.. because sometimes you have to be degenerate as well its why you play this deck. As a side note in the Storm matchup its not completely questionable to board in that Ancient Grudge as marginal as it may be sometimes they lay down an LED then cast another which allows you to cast the Grudge in response and nuke the one already in play; this should throw off their math.

Against most fair decks the idea is still to board minimally even though it seems counter intuitive with my build seeing as how I board in lands. I normally board out an ichorid and Putrid Imp for them which is usually the cut players make to their MD anyway. So with this in mind I usually board out the 3x Breakthrough and 2x LED which allows you to bring in some combination of 5 cards. Note none of this is set in stone and I'm just giving insight on the boarding strategy given my current selections. Moving on. I like to keeep in a couple of LEDs because against fair decks I still want the chance for a strong opening play and other times it acts as a means to pay for taxing counters like Spell Pierce out of RUG.

Artifacts got you down? Board in 2x Pithing Needle, Ancient Grudge, and Ingot Chewer. Echantments causing you grief? Board in those nasty little Wispmares. Surgical Extraction/Extirpate running a muck? Make life more difficult for your opponents by bringing in extra recurable creatures in Nether Shadows. Occasionally I board in the extra DR to put additional pressure on these types of effects; they cannot hit every meaningful card (Bridge From Below, Ichorid, Cabal Therapy, Dread Return, Dredgers, etc..) so usually 1 surgical will not be enough. To me it seems surgical was more annoying when it was paired with Snapcaster Mage, but thanks to DRS snappy has lost some of its allure.

Or bring up a scenario and I can give some notions as to the plan I would consider. Overall just trying to be helpful even if my decisions may not be 100% correct. This is what I've ended up with and I will provide more background as to why I've chosen these specific cards if prompted.

Congrats :)

We are testing a bit with the Quadlaser maindeck and sideboard. While the maindeck performed well the sideboard was quite disappointing lately. We took the proactive route same as you.

Our first set of cards we tested was a playset of Pithing Needle. They performed good against artifact hate, DRS and Scavanging Ooze while on the starting seven but I more and more dislike that they weaken the dinsity of threats in your grave while not in hand. Right now they are still in the board but I would like to have a solution that has not to be drawn naturally :/

Next set were two different Dread Return packages consisting of 2 Dread Return, Griselbrand and either Iona or Elesh Norn (depending on the matchup). Dread Return was a great card both pre- and postboard (we moved it to the main later, because we need two more SB slots cutting 1 Ichorid and 1 Breakthrough).

Iona and Elesh did well though the greatest boost came through Dread Return itself. Griselbrand served as a second copy of the used target because he will easily search for it when found first. Although the targets were good we are not completly sold on them...most oft the time Dread Return on Golgari Thug (with a followed up Cabal Therapy and Narcomoeba put on top) / Stinkweed Imp (to scare flyers away) / Ichorid (for even more token) / Golgari Grave-Troll (to put on pressure) was more then enough.

Next comes up a playset of Chain of Vapor. We didn't want to be completly cold to Leyline of the Void and Grafdigger's Cage, both of which can be handled reasonably well by Chain of Vapor. Nature's Claim was no option without the extra lands in the sideboard and even if Chain of Vapor is a lot worse against Rest in Peace both doesn't help you here most of the time.

Last but not least we kept Leyline of the Void in the sideboard because the combined numbers of Dredge, Tin Fins, Reanimator and Oops all spells were reason enough for us to keep it.

We did not miss any additional lands in the maindeck und are pretty satisfied with the Dread Returns. The sideboard however is still a work in progress.

Nevertheless, this is what it looks like right now:

Deck: Dredge (http://deckstats.net/deck-3137866-25e9e434ba0fb2480ec5ec9ae80e9064-de.html) http://deckstats.net/mana/m/u.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/b.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/r.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/g.gif

//Dredger
4 Golgari Thug (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Golgari+Thug)
4 Stinkweed Imp (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Stinkweed+Imp)
4 Golgari Grave-Troll (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Golgari+Grave-Troll)

//Lands
4 City of Brass (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=City+of+Brass)
4 Gemstone Mine (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Gemstone+Mine)
4 Cephalid Coliseum (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Cephalid+Coliseum)

//Discard & Enabler
4 Lion's Eye Diamond (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Lion%27s+Eye+Diamond)
4 Putrid Imp (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Putrid+Imp)
4 Careful Study (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Careful+Study)
4 Faithless Looting (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Faithless+Looting)
3 Breakthrough (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Breakthrough)

//Business
4 Cabal Therapy (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Cabal+Therapy)
4 Bridge from Below (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Bridge+from+Below)
4 Narcomoeba (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Narcomoeba)
3 Ichorid (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Ichorid)
2 Dread Return (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Dread+Return)

//Sideboard
4 Pithing Needle (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Pithing+Needle)
4 Chain of Vapor (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Chain+of+Vapor)
4 Leyline of the Void (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Leyline+of+the+Void)
1 Griselbrand (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Griselbrand)
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Iona%2C+Shield+of+Emeria)
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Elesh+Norn%2C+Grand+Cenobite)

http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Show Deckstats (http://deckstats.net/deck-3137866-25e9e434ba0fb2480ec5ec9ae80e9064.html)

Our boardingplans were basically to reduce Ichorid, Breakthrough, Putrid Imp and Golgari Thug down to 3.
Since we already did this to bring in the maindeck Dread Returns, we only board out Putrid Imp and Golgari Thug when bringing in Griselbrand + the specific target.
In the Matchups we bring...say Leyline of the Void we boardet out the 2 Dread Return, Putrid Imp and Golgari Thug and so on.
We wanted to keep the deck as intact as we can after boarding.

Just some of our current ideas to LED-Dredge and its sideboard.
I thought it might be interesting because you seem to follow a similar philosophy with boarding and leaving the maindeck as intact as possible.
Perhaps someone has an idea for tweeks as we are not really sure about the Pithing Needles and the targets right now.
Nevertheless it feels good to let Elesh Porn deliver the grand genocide again ;)

Greetings Mindlash

[ween]

Nature's Claim was no option without the extra lands in the sideboard and even if Chain of Vapor is a lot worse against Rest in Peace both doesn't help you here most of the time.


I'm not sure I follow. How is Chain of Vapor better than Nature's Claim, when both cost one, but you specify that Claim is not an option without the land? Is it solely that Cephalid Coliseum produces blue?

[Dice_Box]

Chain of Vapour is easier to cast but is a worse effect. Still it is handy to have when you need it.

[ween]

Chain of Vapour is easier to cast but is a worse effect. Still it is handy to have when you need it.

I like my Nature's Claims more, if only because they are Russian :cool:

[Dice_Box]

Well that's a personal choice I guess. Personally I find if you are going balls to the wall on Hate in your sideboard you need 14 lands Min. That is my land count with two Undiscovered as 13/14. In my view it is the great weakness of Quad, it has only 12 lands and only 8 of them are Rainbow. For this reason I would always suggest adapting it if your going to run it because you really do need that land.

[ween]

Well that's a personal choice I guess. Personally I find if you are going balls to the wall on Hate in your sideboard you need 14 lands Min. That is my land count with two Undiscovered as 13/14. In my view it is the great weakness of Quad, it has only 12 lands and only 8 of them are Rainbow. For this reason I would always suggest adapting it if your going to run it because you really do need that land.

I have 3 Undiscovered Paradise in my sideboard to support the Nature's Claims. I was thinking of trying Pithing Needle, but finding the space is the issue because my Dread Returns are in the sideboard.

[Dice_Box]

Land is no help in the side. You need the extra land to make for a more smooth running of the draw and discard spells. Game one you want to make sure you get that right mix every time.

Yes the deck can Mull to 4 and win turn 2, but that's rare and its better to just make smoothness a priority.

[Mindlash]

I'm not sure I follow. How is Chain of Vapor better than Nature's Claim, when both cost one, but you specify that Claim is not an option without the land? Is it solely that Cephalid Coliseum produces blue?

Yes this is the sole reason of my statement. 12 lands are able to cast Chain of Vapor while only 8 are able to cast Nature's Claim. I agree that Nature's Claim is a better option overall, but once you bounce Leyline of the Void it should not be recasted anyways. You could also use Cabal Therapy on it.

Against Grafdigger's Cage you could dredge on and bounce it eot before your critical turn. Cabal Therapy works here as well.

But I have to admit Chain of Vapor was only an emergency solution because I could not support the extra lands for Nature's Claim and did not want to be cold to hate.

I wanted to play the extra mana as well at first but I couldn't find more slots to cut after boarding. 1 Putrid Imp and 1 Golgari Thug come to mind coming from our maindeck. I would play 1 Undiscovered Paradise and 1 Tarnished Citadel because 2 Undiscovered Paradise do not support turn 2 Cephalid Coliseum well.

Have to look for two additional cuts after boarding then. Any suggestions?

Another question regarding Quadlaser: Do you often have to mulligan for lands? I nearly never found me mulliganing with Quadlaser and I was not light of lands either...only critique on Quadlaser was the sideboard to me...

Greetings Mindlash

[ween]

My mulligans are more often for a discard outlet or a dredge creature, very rarely do i need to go back for lands.

[Dice_Box]

I have before yes. Because you really need to start off the special D,D,D set alongside your mana. Now you only have 8 mana on the base build to fire off a Faithless, cast an Imp or cast Therapy. Yes, I have been hurting for mana before on the quad, that's why I say run 14.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[lnmloner]

hello, I am relatively new to dredge. I have the deck built and am not really sure what the sideboard is...I plan on playing at the gp and this is my only real competive deck so I want to play this. Can any recommend a final list and a sideboard?

[tyriion]

hello, I am relatively new to dredge. I have the deck built and am not really sure what the sideboard is...I plan on playing at the gp and this is my only real competive deck so I want to play this. Can any recommend a final list and a sideboard?

Last few pages have loads of list+sideboards+discussion. Pick what you like best.

My question for quadlazer with 14 lands is, what do you leave out? You can drop Putrid imp, but he's one of 12 discard outlets (16 if you count LED). You can cut a Breakthrough (one of 16 drawspells, counting Coliseum), but they're awesome in game 1. You can cut a dredger (one of 12, and why would you do that to get lands over 12?) Or you can cut utility like Cabal Therapy (always a bad choice imo) or Ichorid. So I guess it's tick down one ichorid and one breakthrough for you?

I have played quadlazer dredge for almost a year now, with 3 ichorids and 1 flexspot. This spot has been the 13th dredger (darkblast), the 13th land (Tarnished Citadel) and Dread Return. Out of all of those I like the DR best, as it gives you an explosive turn. I have never been that happy with playing a 13th land, let alone number 14. Then again I have played without anti-hate for a good time now. The meta seems to be getting more hostile nowadays, but then it might be just time to shelve the deck for a while.

Could you explain a bit more on the 14 lands? Maybe someone has some math to back it up, as I just have gut feeling :P.

[Vlad Teppes]

Run 14 lands and not look back IMO, I'd rather run more lands than DRs
About the guy who asked for a sideboard, Dredge unlike other tier decks, does not have a fix sideboard because the deck is meta dependant, so it's natural that the deck has no fix sideboard.

[Fortunae]

I've been playing a fairly stock LED Dredge deck the past few years, tweaking it here and there for tournaments and to adapt to my local meta. I've done a lot of reading since I picked up the deck, and one question that I would like to put to more experienced pilots is why it doesn't run Bloodghast.

Undiscovered Paradise + Bloodghast looks on paper to be more than good enough to squeeze into the deck, but I can't find any literature on why that would not be the case. The only thing I can think of as to why it would be sub-optimal is that Undiscovered Paradise prevents you from activating Cephalid Coliseum on turn 2.

Any thoughts? Sorry if this is a discussion that has already been hashed out and shelved.

[Anusien]

Last few pages have loads of list+sideboards+discussion. Pick what you like best.

My question for quadlazer with 14 lands is, what do you leave out? You can drop Putrid imp, but he's one of 12 discard outlets (16 if you count LED). You can cut a Breakthrough (one of 16 drawspells, counting Coliseum), but they're awesome in game 1. You can cut a dredger (one of 12, and why would you do that to get lands over 12?) Or you can cut utility like Cabal Therapy (always a bad choice imo) or Ichorid. So I guess it's tick down one ichorid and one breakthrough for you?

I have played quadlazer dredge for almost a year now, with 3 ichorids and 1 flexspot. This spot has been the 13th dredger (darkblast), the 13th land (Tarnished Citadel) and Dread Return. Out of all of those I like the DR best, as it gives you an explosive turn. I have never been that happy with playing a 13th land, let alone number 14. Then again I have played without anti-hate for a good time now. The meta seems to be getting more hostile nowadays, but then it might be just time to shelve the deck for a while.

Could you explain a bit more on the 14 lands? Maybe someone has some math to back it up, as I just have gut feeling :P.
Cabal Therapy can target yourself.

[Que]

I've been playing a fairly stock LED Dredge deck the past few years, tweaking it here and there for tournaments and to adapt to my local meta. I've done a lot of reading since I picked up the deck, and one question that I would like to put to more experienced pilots is why it doesn't run Bloodghast.

Undiscovered Paradise + Bloodghast looks on paper to be more than good enough to squeeze into the deck, but I can't find any literature on why that would not be the case. The only thing I can think of as to why it would be sub-optimal is that Undiscovered Paradise prevents you from activating Cephalid Coliseum on turn 2.

Any thoughts? Sorry if this is a discussion that has already been hashed out and shelved.

Slightly tweaked build, but Jason B. has always had success with his bloodghast build (Its all preference in the end): http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?p_first=Jason&p_last=Bulkowski

He also prefers the robust Painter Grindstone combo in the sb.

[HammafistRoob]

I've been playing a fairly stock LED Dredge deck the past few years, tweaking it here and there for tournaments and to adapt to my local meta. I've done a lot of reading since I picked up the deck, and one question that I would like to put to more experienced pilots is why it doesn't run Bloodghast.

Undiscovered Paradise + Bloodghast looks on paper to be more than good enough to squeeze into the deck, but I can't find any literature on why that would not be the case. The only thing I can think of as to why it would be sub-optimal is that Undiscovered Paradise prevents you from activating Cephalid Coliseum on turn 2.

Any thoughts? Sorry if this is a discussion that has already been hashed out and shelved.

Paradise has quite a few drawbacks, not only the poor Coliseum interaction. It hinders your ability to play around Daze, and it slows hands down if you have like 3 Study effects or 2 and an Imp in hand. Having two lands in play on turn two can be huge, and Paradise is bad at doing that.

Sure Bloodghast is good with Paradise. But without it, you'll often find yourself unable to recur them. You have less than a 40% chance to have a Paradise if you play 4 of them.

[Kap'n Cook]

Damon is at 9-1 for you guys

[DarkJester]

Oh, Parcher is dredging? Is there a stream?

[P-E]

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpwas13/welcome#12

he just lost against shahar at 10-1

[Que]

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpwas13/welcome#12

he just lost against shahar at 10-1

Was Shahar on D & T? How did the games ultimately play out? Did anyone catch it?

[DarkJester]

Top8 starts in fifteen minutes. Dredge is in the tops. Hope it'll get a feature match. Pretty diverse Top8 btw.

[P-E]

dredge top8 go go unleash the zombies !!

[Lt. Quattro]

Looks like its in the top 4, keep the dream alive.

[HammafistRoob]

That list is pretty subpar in my opinion, I wish he'd pop in here and shed some light on half of his choices. 5 extra "dead" cards in the opening hand makes me scratch my head, and what's up with the 4 Probe sideboard? I think I would prefer Street Wraith if I was taking that approach.

Congrats Parcher, nice showing. What was your final record and what took you down?

[JPoJohnson]

Based on what was said on stream, Cage took him down. Probe over wraith means you can know if you should play conservative or go for it. I would play probe instead of it as well.

[Parcher]

That list is pretty subpar in my opinion, I wish he'd pop in here and shed some light on half of his choices. 5 extra "dead" cards in the opening hand makes me scratch my head, and what's up with the 4 Probe sideboard? I think I would prefer Street Wraith if I was taking that approach.

Congrats Parcher, nice showing. What was your final record and what took you down?

Went 12-3. Lost to RUG, D&T, and Esperblade.

[HammafistRoob]

Based on what was said on stream, Cage took him down. Probe over wraith means you can know if you should play conservative or go for it. I would play probe instead of it as well.

So it's basically a crutch then. Street Wraith just has more advantages, it can save a dredger from being nuked from your yard and it's a black creature for Ichorid to feed on. I don't think I'll be playing either, I'm just trying to figure out how it's good.

The thing I don't get with your argument is that I'm assuming he brings them in to speed the deck up a little bit. In that case, you're probably up against a combo deck and you should always go for it as soon as possible. I guess it could also help racing RiP, but what do you side out for it? I'm not really seeing it be a thing, except against combo.

[tyriion]

So it's basically a crutch then. Street Wraith just has more advantages, it can save a dredger from being nuked from your yard and it's a black creature for Ichorid to feed on. I don't think I'll be playing either, I'm just trying to figure out how it's good.

The thing I don't get with your argument is that I'm assuming he brings them in to speed the deck up a little bit. In that case, you're probably up against a combo deck and you should always go for it as soon as possible. I guess it could also help racing RiP, but what do you side out for it? I'm not really seeing it be a thing, except against combo.

Info on the opponents hand is the thing you have to keep in mind here I guess. You don't have to save a dredger if you know he has no Extract.

Awesome to see Dredge do so well, gives me hope again :P

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

I want to know his sideboarding, it's not clear to me what cards he plays against some decks.
I think gitaxian is good against combo like TES, to give the sprint to the deck and cut the pieces of combo with therapy, but I don't know the sideboarding of that guy.
Someone know Drew Tunison?

[turbo]

I would be very happy to know Drew Tunison's sideboarding strategies. Why did he play gitaxian probe? Why did he not play putrid imps? Is leyline a smart anti-grave solution? there is tormods crpyt, fearie macabre and other solutions that can be drawn with faithless lootings, breakthroughs and careful studie, no need to mulligan to find it. Also, what is Ancestor chosen good against?
Cheers

[tyriion]

I would be very happy to know Drew Tunison's sideboarding strategies. Why did he play gitaxian probe? Why did he not play putrid imps? Is leyline a smart anti-grave solution? there is tormods crpyt, fearie macabre and other solutions that can be drawn with faithless lootings, breakthroughs and careful studie, no need to mulligan to find it. Also, what is Ancestor chosen good against?
Cheers

Burn decks hate lifegain. Also after a big enough dredge it puts the game quite out of reach for storm decks.

[Koby]

I would like to state for the record, that when you shuffle an opponent's Quadlazer deck and give them two Lion's Eye Diamond, there is zero chance in hell you're going to win.

That is all.

cc: Que

[Julian23]

Ancestor's Chosen is old tech that was used like 5(?) years ago to combat Storm and Aggro with a single card.

[Parcher]

Just to elaborate; ran the Quad list -1 Ichorid, -1 Study, -1 Coliseum, +1 Fstorm, +1 Citadel, +1 Paradise. The Study change was purely for SB space, as I wanted the 4th Fstorm for that meta, and felt that it would have more use maindeck as at least a discard outlet than the 4thIchorid. SB was:

4 Unmask
3 Firestorm
1 Ichorid
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Wear/Tear
2 Ancient Grudge

Can't speak too much to my wins. Sort of a jumble. Losses were, in order:

Rd 8: Craig Wescoe/D&T: G1: Won turn one.

G2: Mull to 5. Still hit two Narco and all four Bridges to end turn two one the draw with 8 Zombies in play. Wescoe topdecks a Ratchet Bomb to add to his board of Mom. I bring back two Ichorids, who don't swing into Mom, and swing out with Zombies. He activates Bomb, amd I end my third turn again with 8 Zombies. He plays his fourth land, his second Ratchet Bomb, and RiP.

G3: I mull to four on the play, and he has turn two RiP.

Rd12: Shahar Shenhar/Esper Trueblade:G1: I mull to a no-land, 2 LED, 2 Troll, Looting, blanks on the draw. He allows both LEDs, and the first Looting to resolve, and Dazes the Flashback on the one I dredge into. Absolutely correct since once he allowed the first LED and I hit no Narcos, it was his only chance to stop me. He ends up getting two active Deathrites, an active Jitte, and the four lands to use both, and switch Jitte. I saw no mistakes from either of us, but I was still able to race him by one turn.

G2: I misboard, thinking White=RiP, bringing in Wear over Grudge. Combined with a sub par hand, that allows his Relic and Deathrite to shut me down.

G3: Another close one. I Fstorm his first Deathrite, and Grudge his Relic. His second Deathrite slows me down long enough to land a Mystic, I miss on hitting a Therapy or Grudge for the Bskull that he gets, which lets him live long enough to draw Jitte and close out the match. Best match of the tournament.

Rd 13: Kyle Miller/RUG:G1: I mull to six on the draw, and can't DDD even though I know what he is playing. This plays directly into his Dazing my first play, Wasting me, and Forcing my next play. I essentially do nothing.

G2: I resolve a turn one Looting, drawing my fourth land. He hits his one of Cage on his turn one. I resolve a turn two PImp. He Wastes. I then begin playing Stinkweed Imp, and using it on D while swinging with PImp. Once he gets three guys, I block with PImp to get three Zombies. He Bolts my Stinkweed, then we spend three consecutive turns on him Forcing my recasting Stinkweed, while I block with Zombies to live. By the time I can resolve Stinkweed to mow down his team, I have lost my Bridges, am dead if I don't allow him to swing me down to two so I can kill him on the backswing. He has the Bolt. Worst match of the tournament.

[(nameless one)]

Why not just use a universal artifact/enchantment hate like Nature's Claim. I'm sure the 4 life they gain won't matter.

[Parcher]

Why not just use a universal artifact/enchantment hate like Nature's Claim. I'm sure the 4 life they gain won't matter.

Wear is universal, it just costs one more. The life is relevant against any Aggro deck with any Artifact based hate. It's also far better against any deck with Chalice, Blood Moon, or Counterbalance. The reason the switch mattered against Shahar is that you play completely differently with stuff you have to have in hand vs stuff you can dredge into.

I might get into some other results later, but I now need to give a huge thanks to Mike Noble "Fish", who gave me a gigantic compliment. He played Goblins, and while one of our games was close, the other I blew him out. After the match, we discussed plays for a bit, asking questions and such, like anyone might do with an intelligent, friendly guy such as Mike. He told me then that he had been around a while, and that I was the best Dredge player he had ever seen. When I sort of blew him off, he insisted that I had done everything technically perfect during our match. He then pulled out a picture of him, and a guy he said won Vintage Champs with Dredge, who he said was a friend, and still said I was way better than he. Not posting this to brag. I had never met Mike before, and I am confident with my ability with the deck. Just wanted to put the gratitude out there, since that confidence boost really carried me throughout the rest of Day One.

[Lyle Hopkins]

Just to elaborate; ran the Quad list -1 Ichorid, -1 Study, -1 Coliseum, +1 Fstorm, +1 Citadel, +1 Paradise. The Study change was purely for SB space, as I wanted the 4th Fstorm for that meta, and felt that it would have more use maindeck as at least a discard outlet than the 4thIchorid. SB was:

4 Unmask
3 Firestorm
1 Ichorid
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Wear/Tear
2 Ancient Grudge

How did Unmask work out for you? I've been testing with it recently and really diggin' the card. Also, are there any changes to your 75 that you would make in retrospect?

[Parcher]

How did Unmask work out for you? I've been testing with it recently and really diggin' the card. Also, are there any changes to your 75 that you would make in retrospect?

I make changes for every tournament. As always, Dredge is a deck of 75 cards. Not 60 and 15. You always build the SB first, then make your adjustments to the main accordingly. For this tourney, I had zero complaints. Though I do think that Wear would have been just as good being Claim. Local influence had me too afraid of Chalice decks. No big deal there.

Unmask was excellent. It makes most all Combo matchups in our favor. And even if a Show deck boards Leyline, you can use it as a free discard outlet. What put it over the top was the combination of it and the Wears and Grudges. I have 6 ways to remove Artifacts, but only 4 for Enchantments. Which are usually far more damaging. Fortunately, RiP costs two, and is usually telegraphed. Unmask gives you four more ways, along with Wear, and Therapy, to remove it. You need to be especially careful with this plan though, as your Black count post-board becomes paramount.

[Lyle Hopkins]

I make changes for every tournament. As always, Dredge is a deck of 75 cards. Not 60 and 15. You always build the SB first, then make your adjustments to the main accordingly. For this tourney, I had zero complaints. Though I do think that Wear would have been just as good being Claim. Local influence had me too afraid of Chalice decks. No big deal there.

Unmask was excellent. It makes most all Combo matchups in our favor. And even if a Show deck boards Leyline, you can use it as a free discard outlet. What put it over the top was the combination of it and the Wears and Grudges. I have 6 ways to remove Artifacts, but only 4 for Enchantments. Which are usually far more damaging. Fortunately, RiP costs two, and is usually telegraphed. Unmask gives you four more ways, along with Wear, and Therapy, to remove it. You need to be especially careful with this plan though, as your Black count post-board becomes paramount.

Thanks for sharing. I'm curious though, do you ever board in more than four cards, and if so, what do you typically take out? I'm always reluctant to bring in more than four, but maybe I'm just not doing it right.

[Que]

I would like to state for the record, that when you shuffle an opponent's Quadlazer deck and give them two Lion's Eye Diamond, there is zero chance in hell you're going to win.

That is all.

cc: Que

You do have a knack for that don't ya ;]

Played another local tournament at MTG Deals this past weekend. There were 30 or so players with 5 rounds of action and a cut to Top 8.

Round 1: Maverick
Games: 1-1 Match: Draw

Game 1 was rather long and grindy which is why we ultimately went to time. Not really the conventional start to the day, however, I didn't mind the draw as much considering it would most likely mean a slew of slow blue decks I would be facing. Course this wasn't exactly correct as there were no other individuals with any draws in the tournament outside of my 1st round opponent. This meant I would be essentially dream crushing all day. *_*

Round 2: Jund
Games: 2-0 Match: 1-0-1

Round 3: U/R Delver (with Young Pyromancer)
Games: 2-1 Match: 2-0-1

Round 4: BUG Tempo/Team America (only undefeated player left at 3-0, has to play. Felt bad again Dx) All ends well with Cody eventually making Top 8 as well!
Games: 2-0 Match: 3-0-1

Round 5: Sneak & Show
Games: ID Match: 3-0-2

Top 8
Quarter Finals: Elves (Jacob Koby Kory)
Game 1: Double LED hand compliments of Koby :U
Game 2: Koby opens with Llanowar elf and I dispatch the playables out of his hand on my turn which essentially puts him out of the game.
Games: 2-0

Semi Finals: ANT
Notes: I therapy the Infernal Tutor out of his hand both games to stop his development and move my game along.
Games: 2-0

Finals: BUG Tempo/Team America (Cody Johnston same opponent from swiss)
Games: 2-0
Notes: Cody makes a mistake turn 1 by fetching up his U. Sea instead of his Trop. No access to green makes me a happy camper ;p

I end up scooping up the U. Sea and Polluted Delta as 1st place prize! It was a pretty good day I have to say.

Also I had the same maindeck. The only difference this time around was -2 Nether Shadow and -1 Coffin Purge to include 3x Mindbreak Trap in my sb. I did indeed have one for my ANT Opponent in the Top 8 which could not be ignored. I believe it bought me the turns necessary to place the game in my favor. The reasoning for this latest change is fear of faster combo which I see a lot more often in my local meta in the form of STORM combo (ANT, TES, Belcher etc. ) While the matchups can at times go either way I'm not going to fool myself by thinking dredge is the faster deck.

[Parcher]

Thanks for sharing. I'm curious though, do you ever board in more than four cards, and if so, what do you typically take out? I'm always reluctant to bring in more than four, but maybe I'm just not doing it right.

This is my SB guide for GPDC. Keep in mind that it is only a guideline, and that many factors change these decisions.

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
3 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
1 Firestorm
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
3 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Tarnished Citadel

4 Unmask
3 Firestorm
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Ichorid
4 Wear/Tear
2 Ancient Grudge

DBlade:+2 Grudge,+3 Unmask,+1 Ichorid,+2 Fstorm/-4 Bthrough,-4 LED
Patriot:+3 Fstor,+1 Parad,+4 Wear/-4 LED,-1 Bthro,-1 Loot,-1 Thug,-1 Stud
Show:+4 Unmask/-1 Fstorm,-1 Ichorid,-1 Paradise,-1 Study
Miracles:+4 Wear,+4 Unmask/-4 LED,-1 Fstorm,-1 Bthrough,-2 Study
AdN:+4 Unmask/-1 Fstorm,-1 PImp,-1 Citadel,-1 Ichorid
BUG:+2 Grudge,+1 Parad,+3 Fstorm,+1 Ichorid/-4 LED,-3 Bthrough
RUG:+1 Paradise,+3 Fstorm,+1 Ichorid/-4 LED,-1 Bthrough
Post:+4 Unmask/-1 Fstorm,-1 Paradise,-2 Study(-1 Pimp OD)
Elves:+3 Fstorm/-3 PImp
Merfolk:+2 Grudge,+1 Paradise,+3 Fstorm/-4 LED,-1 Bthrough,-1 Loot
Goblins:+4 Wear,+3 Fstorm,+1 Paradise/-3 BThrough,-4 LED,-1 Thug
U/Burn:+3 Fstorm,+1 Paradise,+3 Unmask,+1 Ichorid/-4 Bthrough,-4 LED
Dredg:+4 Unmask/-1 Fstor,-1 Therap,-1 Citad,-1 PImp(D)/Ich(P)
Tide:+4 Unmask/-1 Fstorm,-1 Thug,-1 Paradise,-1 Study
MUD:+4 Wear,+2 Grudge,+1 Paradise/-1 Therapy,-4 LED,-2 Study
D&T:+4 Unmask/-1 PImp,-1 Paradise,-1 Study,-1 Fstorm
Maverick:+3 Fstorm,+1 Paradise,+1 Ichorid/-3 PImp,-2 Study
Reanimator:+4 Unmask/-1 PImp,-1 Paradise,-1 Fstorm,-1 Ichorid
Bant:+3 Fstorm,+2 Grudge,+1 Paradise/-4 LED,-1 Breakthrough,-1 Study
Burn:+3 Unmask,+2 Fstorm,+1 Paradise/-4 LED,-1 Citadel,-1 Study
Affin::+4 Wear,+2 Grudge,+1 Para,+3 Fsto/-4 BThro,-4 LED,-1 Therp,-1 Thg
Paint:+4 Wear,+2 Grudg,+1 Parad,+3 Fstor/-4 BThro,-4 LED,-1 Thg,-1 Stdy
Loam:(OD)+2 Grudge,+1 Paradise,+3 Fstorm/-4 LED,-1 Therapy,-1 PImp
Loam:(OP)+4 Unmask/-1 Therapy,-1 Ichorid,-1 Fstorm,-1 Citadel
Jund:+4 Unmask/-1 Fstorm,-1 PImp,-1 Citadel,-1 Study

[Final Fortune]

Cutting Careful Study over Breakthrough just feels dirty, Breakthrough is a significantly worse card post-board than Careful Study and that is 50 to 66% of your games.

Is Unmask any better than Thoughtseize? I've always found it incredibly resource intensive, altho' I agree with the philosophy that Dredge should use pro-active as opposed to reactive cards vs hate - generally I stick to cards like Firestorm, Tireless Tribe and Thoughtseize wherever possible.

[Parcher]

Cutting Careful Study over Breakthrough just feels dirty, Breakthrough is a significantly worse card post-board than Careful Study and that is 50 to 66% of your games.

Is Unmask any better than Thoughtseize? I've always found it incredibly resource intensive, altho' I agree with the philosophy that Dredge should use pro-active as opposed to reactive cards vs hate - generally I stick to cards like Firestorm, Tireless Tribe and Thoughtseize wherever possible.

This is not correct. Careful Study is the worst draw effect in the deck, and the second-worst discard effect. I went for three years winning tournaments with the deck while running zero. More directly, Breakthrough is always better against Combo, even post-board. Period. And Breakthrough is better against decks running GY sweepers post-board, since it plus any discard allows you to win immediately after getting Crypt'ed etc. Against Tempo, you don't want Breakthrough. Nor do you want it against fast Aggro with hate, since you need to bring in both antt-hate, and Fstorm. But to make a blanket statement that Study is always better than Breakthrough, even with the post-board caveat, is both misleading, and mostly just wrong.

As far as Unmask, mana is the most constrictive resource in Dredge. Being able to cast Unmask AND another spell is what makes it a good choice. The two life for Thoughtseize isn't irrelevant, but isn't important. The one mana is. You are far more likely to have a superfluous Black card in hand, than an extra turn/second land drop+no Wasteland from your opponent.

[Cipher]

This is not correct. Careful Study is the worst draw effect in the deck, and the second-worst discard effect. I went for three years winning tournaments with the deck while running zero. More directly, Breakthrough is always better against Combo, even post-board. Period. And Breakthrough is better against decks running GY sweepers post-board, since it plus any discard allows you to win immediately after getting Crypt'ed etc. Against Tempo, you don't want Breakthrough. Nor do you want it against fast Aggro with hate, since you need to bring in both antt-hate, and Fstorm. But to make a blanket statement that Study is always better than Breakthrough, even with the post-board caveat, is both misleading, and mostly just wrong.

As far as Unmask, mana is the most constrictive resource in Dredge. Being able to cast Unmask AND another spell is what makes it a good choice. The two life for Thoughtseize isn't irrelevant, but isn't important. The one mana is. You are far more likely to have a superfluous Black card in hand, than an extra turn/second land drop+no Wasteland from your opponent.

First off, it's great to actually see someone put up their sideboard choices for dredge; I appreciate you taking the time and having the guts to lay it all out.

I do have a few questions, though:


Breakthrough is better against decks running GY sweepers post-board, since it plus any discard allows you to win immediately after getting Crypt'ed etc.

I love Breakthrough vs. Combo, and just now cut the Winds of Change out of my board after seeing you running Unmask. But against Graveyard Sweepers, post board, you like Breakthrough? Given the example you used (Tormod's Crypt), I'm assuming you're referring to cards that are not Rest in Peace or Grafdigger's Cage? I've been boarding out Breakthrough in most matchups where Nature's Claim comes in. I feel like being on the draw, you never want to go all-in vs. sweepers.


Against Tempo, you don't want Breakthrough. Care to elaborate? I think of Daze/Stifle decks when you say Tempo. I saw you only took out a single Breakthrough against those decks. I leave in mine against RUG Delver, but pull them out against UWR Delver, on account of Nature's Claim staying in, whereas with RUG, only Ancient Grudge comes in. Maybe our definition of Tempo is different.

Definitely looking forward to trying Unmask out. I'm just coming back to Dredge after a hiatus and I'm also trying out the 4 Careful Study, 0 Putrid Imp build. Any thoughts on the validity? Putrid Imp is a very stable card, but perhaps with Deathrite Shaman decks dominating the format the anemic nature of it was lowering win %? I know the consensus before was that Dredge just wins game 1 every time, but it doesn't feel like the 2 sideboard graveyard hate cards are the end-all-be-all. Getting choked off of Bridge from Below was one of the primary reasons I managed to lose game 1. I'm thinking that going all-in and pressing advantage game 1 may be better than building for consistency and assuming that Bridge from Below can inevitably beat Batterskulls, or is fast enough to race Combo. Maybe the GP top 8 list wasn't a fluke.


//Threats
2 Griselbrand
3 Dread Return
3 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy

//Engine
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

//Lands
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

//Sideboard
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Street Wraith
4 Unmask
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Nature's Claim


I'm going to give this a shot at my next tournament. Lot of changes from the conventional lists, let me know what you think.

[Parcher]

I love Breakthrough vs. Combo, and just now cut the Winds of Change out of my board after seeing you running Unmask. But against Graveyard Sweepers, post board, you like Breakthrough? Given the example you used (Tormod's Crypt), I'm assuming you're referring to cards that are not Rest in Peace or Grafdigger's Cage? I've been boarding out Breakthrough in most matchups where Nature's Claim comes in. I feel like being on the draw, you never want to go all-in vs. sweepers..

This is correct, sort of. Against Crypt or Relic, you want Breakthrough. You are usually slow dredging, waiting to hit Grudge, and/or a critical mass of threats in the GY to force them to blow. Against Aggro this puts you in a position where you need the strongest draw spell to go off after they do. With 4 Firestorms coming in, I don't have the room to keep in Breakthrough along with anti-hate, since it doesn't count as a discard outlet in these cases. But that doesn't mean I don't want it. However, against RiP from a non-Blue deck, I always want Breakthrough, since you can totally invalidate it if you go off before they can cast it. And I keep some number against Blue RiP decks since you will easily resolve it by the time you can resolve something to remove RiP.


Care to elaborate? I think of Daze/Stifle decks when you say Tempo. I saw you only took out a single Breakthrough against those decks. I leave in mine against RUG Delver, but pull them out against UWR Delver, on account of Nature's Claim staying in, whereas with RUG, only Ancient Grudge comes in. Maybe our definition of Tempo is different..

I don't bring in anti-hate against RUG, since it's not worth the slots against 1-2 Cages. So I have room to keep in Breakthrough. It's also because I bring in Fstorm as an uncounterable discard outlet. Most often, they will counter it anyway if it means saving their Delver and three life. That gives you free reign to untap, and resolve Breakthrough.

Against BUG, I bring in Grudge, since it works against Nihil. Plus, having Deathrite as well makes it so you need to answer at least one of their GY hate cards. So with the addition of Fstorm to Grudge, I only have room for one Bthrough. The reason I cut Bthrough over the Study, that I said was worse, it because you can't count on anything resolving against these decks. So if you need to sandbag spells in hand, and don't have an initial discard outlet, you don't want to have to throw stuff away to to start your GY against a deck that can have Nihil and sandbag Deathrite, or vice versa.

However, against Patriot, you are more forced to go all-in due to RiP. So usually cantrips are worse than Breakthrough, since you get no value. Ours are card disadvantage, and almost everything you pitch has some value in the GY since you keep most lands and spells. Losing all that while trying to dig for an answer to RiP, is as bad if not worse than just drawing cards. Their clock is slower than most, and you can further slow it down by discarding their Equipment, and using Firestorm to kill every threat they have other than Geist/TNN.


Definitely looking forward to trying Unmask out. I'm just coming back to Dredge after a hiatus and I'm also trying out the 4 Careful Study, 0 Putrid Imp build. Any thoughts on the validity? Putrid Imp is a very stable card, but perhaps with Deathrite Shaman decks dominating the format the anemic nature of it was lowering win %? I know the consensus before was that Dredge just wins game 1 every time, but it doesn't feel like the 2 sideboard graveyard hate cards are the end-all-be-all. Getting choked off of Bridge from Below was one of the primary reasons I managed to lose game 1. I'm thinking that going all-in and pressing advantage game 1 may be better than building for consistency and assuming that Bridge from Below can inevitably beat Batterskulls, or is fast enough to race Combo. Maybe the GP top 8 list wasn't a fluke.


//Threats
2 Griselbrand
3 Dread Return
3 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy

//Engine
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

//Lands
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

//Sideboard
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Street Wraith
4 Unmask
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Nature's Claim


I'm going to give this a shot at my next tournament. Lot of changes from the conventional lists, let me know what you think.

I don't consider that the same deck. It's totally built differently. That list is totally dependant on the combo. That it will hit enough Narcomoebas to go off. Mine is far more incremental, both in function, and design. Neither is right or wrong, they are just set up to play out differently. I could be convinced in certain metas to run a DR package over Unmask. You'll never see me run less than three PImp, though.

[Cipher]

Yeah, I haven't tested it at all, but I am worried about playing with so few creatures to sacrifice. It definitely looks like the list needs to flip most the deck to win. I cut a Flame-Kin from what he was running, since the third target just felt like total overkill, but maybe -1 Dread Return, -1 Griselbrand for +2 Putrid Imp. I want to try the list with the full 16 draw spells and the rest of the deck as just gas, so I'm not going to cut draw spells for Imp just yet.

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

I don't know the sideboarding of Drew Tunison, but I like to know it! What do you think about probably sideboarding? I think his decklist is amazing.

1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
2 Griselbrand
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
Creatures [21]
4 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
Spells [27]
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
Lands [12]

SIDEBOARD
1 Ancestor's Chosen
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Darkblast
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Nature's Claim

Some suggestions?

[Anusien]

This is not correct. Careful Study is the worst draw effect in the deck, and the second-worst discard effect. I went for three years winning tournaments with the deck while running zero. More directly, Breakthrough is always better against Combo, even post-board. Period. And Breakthrough is better against decks running GY sweepers post-board, since it plus any discard allows you to win immediately after getting Crypt'ed etc. Against Tempo, you don't want Breakthrough. Nor do you want it against fast Aggro with hate, since you need to bring in both antt-hate, and Fstorm. But to make a blanket statement that Study is always better than Breakthrough, even with the post-board caveat, is both misleading, and mostly just wrong.

As far as Unmask, mana is the most constrictive resource in Dredge. Being able to cast Unmask AND another spell is what makes it a good choice. The two life for Thoughtseize isn't irrelevant, but isn't important. The one mana is. You are far more likely to have a superfluous Black card in hand, than an extra turn/second land drop+no Wasteland from your opponent.
Being able to cast Careful Study off blue makes it better than worst and second-worst. I would also point out that the Breakthrough + any discard lets you win immediately is kind of an awkward requirement to meet if you're trimming discard outlets.

I agree 100% about not wanting to cut Breakthroughs against Tormod's Crypt because it's awesome to refuel with post-Crypt. The risk, especially if you don't have Imp, is that you'll have Breakthrough + draw spell and no good discard outlets.

[Parcher]

Being able to cast Careful Study off blue makes it better than worst and second-worst. I would also point out that the Breakthrough + any discard lets you win immediately is kind of an awkward requirement to meet if you're trimming discard outlets.

I agree 100% about not wanting to cut Breakthroughs against Tormod's Crypt because it's awesome to refuel with post-Crypt. The risk, especially if you don't have Imp, is that you'll have Breakthrough + draw spell and no good discard outlets.

I run 11 Rainbow Lands. So this is less relevant than the lists that run 8 by a fair margin.

And not only do I not cut PImp, I add Firestorms. So not only do I run more discard outlets, they are instant speed. Which both allows you to better play around Hate, and gives greater mana efficiency.

[Lyle Hopkins]

As far as Unmask, mana is the most constrictive resource in Dredge. Being able to cast Unmask AND another spell is what makes it a good choice. The two life for Thoughtseize isn't irrelevant, but isn't important. The one mana is. You are far more likely to have a superfluous Black card in hand, than an extra turn/second land drop+no Wasteland from your opponent.

I completely agree with you. The card doesn't force you to change your game plan, and if they don't have the hate in hand, then it still functions as effective disruption. My only complaint is that Enlightened Tutor/Brainstorm shenanigans can pose a bit of a problem at times.

[Parcher]

I completely agree with you. The card doesn't force you to change your game plan, and if they don't have the hate in hand, then it still functions as effective disruption. My only complaint is that Enlightened Tutor/Brainstorm shenanigans can pose a bit of a problem at times.

Fair enough. Unfortunately, the only way to deal with that is either double up on disenchants, or run Needle. Which still doesn't deal with RiP. Your SB suffers with the former, and Needle has always proven weak. Counterable, easily removed, and too difficult to name the right target against the sort of decks that run Deathrite with Spellbomb. Especially when you have to hide it in ha d.

Pick your poison.

[rw1347]

I played Dredge this past weekend at the Grand Prix, making day 2 . I ended up finishing with an 8-4 record, giving me 215th place. Just wanted to share the list I played

3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomeba
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Putrid Imp

4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge From Below
1 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Undiscovered Paradise

SB
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
3 Natures Claim
2 Firestorm
1 Iona Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn Grand Cenobite
1 Ashen Rider
1 Dread Return
2 Nether Shadow

Matches:
Day 1
12 post 2-1
Sneak and Show 1-2
ANT 2-0
Sneak and show 2-0
Punishing Jund 2-1
Omnitell 2-1
Elves 2-0
Bant Blade 1-2
Shardless Bug 2-0

Day 2
Ant 1-2
Infect 2-0
Rug 0-2

Day one was crazy played Josh Utter Leyton round 7 on elves and then played Sam Black the following round two of the most demanding games of competitive magic in my life. Day two had some bad luck with mulligans and didn't play as well as I did day one. Going to change a few cards in the SB but I need to do more testing with what I am going to do. Was overall a great weekend!

[HardBrain]

Like Alex_UNLIMITED i want to know what was the Drew Tunison side plan. Anyone of you could write SB plan for his List?

[GoldenCid]

This is my SB guide for GPDC. Keep in mind that it is only a guideline, and that many factors change these decisions.

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
3 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
1 Firestorm
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
3 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Tarnished Citadel

4 Unmask
3 Firestorm
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Ichorid
4 Wear/Tear
2 Ancient Grudge

DBlade:+2 Grudge,+3 Unmask,+1 Ichorid,+2 Fstorm/-4 Bthrough,-4 LED
Patriot:+3 Fstor,+1 Parad,+4 Wear/-4 LED,-1 Bthro,-1 Loot,-1 Thug,-1 Stud
Show:+4 Unmask/-1 Fstorm,-1 Ichorid,-1 Paradise,-1 Study
Miracles:+4 Wear,+4 Unmask/-4 LED,-1 Fstorm,-1 Bthrough,-2 Study
AdN:+4 Unmask/-1 Fstorm,-1 PImp,-1 Citadel,-1 Ichorid
BUG:+2 Grudge,+1 Parad,+3 Fstorm,+1 Ichorid/-4 LED,-3 Bthrough
RUG:+1 Paradise,+3 Fstorm,+1 Ichorid/-4 LED,-1 Bthrough
Post:+4 Unmask/-1 Fstorm,-1 Paradise,-2 Study(-1 Pimp OD)
Elves:+3 Fstorm/-3 PImp
Merfolk:+2 Grudge,+1 Paradise,+3 Fstorm/-4 LED,-1 Bthrough,-1 Loot
Goblins:+4 Wear,+3 Fstorm,+1 Paradise/-3 BThrough,-4 LED,-1 Thug
U/Burn:+3 Fstorm,+1 Paradise,+3 Unmask,+1 Ichorid/-4 Bthrough,-4 LED
Dredg:+4 Unmask/-1 Fstor,-1 Therap,-1 Citad,-1 PImp(D)/Ich(P)
Tide:+4 Unmask/-1 Fstorm,-1 Thug,-1 Paradise,-1 Study
MUD:+4 Wear,+2 Grudge,+1 Paradise/-1 Therapy,-4 LED,-2 Study
D&T:+4 Unmask/-1 PImp,-1 Paradise,-1 Study,-1 Fstorm
Maverick:+3 Fstorm,+1 Paradise,+1 Ichorid/-3 PImp,-2 Study
Reanimator:+4 Unmask/-1 PImp,-1 Paradise,-1 Fstorm,-1 Ichorid
Bant:+3 Fstorm,+2 Grudge,+1 Paradise/-4 LED,-1 Breakthrough,-1 Study
Burn:+3 Unmask,+2 Fstorm,+1 Paradise/-4 LED,-1 Citadel,-1 Study
Affin::+4 Wear,+2 Grudge,+1 Para,+3 Fsto/-4 BThro,-4 LED,-1 Therp,-1 Thg
Paint:+4 Wear,+2 Grudg,+1 Parad,+3 Fstor/-4 BThro,-4 LED,-1 Thg,-1 Stdy
Loam:(OD)+2 Grudge,+1 Paradise,+3 Fstorm/-4 LED,-1 Therapy,-1 PImp
Loam:(OP)+4 Unmask/-1 Therapy,-1 Ichorid,-1 Fstorm,-1 Citadel
Jund:+4 Unmask/-1 Fstorm,-1 PImp,-1 Citadel,-1 Study

Thx you so much parcher! Youare the best dredger i ever read! Take note f this.

[Parcher]

Thx you so much parcher! Youare the best dredger i ever read! Take note f this.

You're welcome. Remember though, that guide is more for me, to show me how to build my SB and deck, by showing which cards come in where. It gives me a good idea of importance and value in each matchup, and allows me to make decisions like "X instead of Y because of Z" when considering say, Unmask vs Dread Return. Against Combo, they were equal, but against Miracles, where you need more that four ways to get rid of RiP, or against Surgical, where I don't have the room to add Shadow or Ghoul, Unmask became a needed addition. Actually sideboarding rarely is ever exactly like stated there.


Just because I'm bored at work, and there's no activity on this forum; I'll put up some of the interesting plays I had at GPDC.

Rnd 6: Dredge mirror: G1: My opponent wins the roll, and mulls to four. I suspect Combo, and keep a Land, LED, Breakthrough hand that loses to Force. He opens with Land, Breakthrough, go. Happy to see this, I go off. I hit no Bridges, no Ichorids, and one Narcomoeba. He returns Ichorid, dredges a Narco, and attacks, which I block since he has a Bridge. My turn, I dredge into no Narco or Ichorids again, but this time I hit three Bridges. Hooray!!. He now brings back two Ichorids to swing with, and by the time I hit any dudes of my own, I'm already dead since I can never block.

Funny side part. After dredging for my last turn, I concede. My opponent asks to see my dredge, to which I refuse, since I already conceded. He calls a judge, who agrees with me. He then appeals. Keep in mind, we've kept those five cards seperate, and in view the whole time. The head judge informs me that part of dredgind is revealing the cards. Even though it happens at once, and in any order I choose when they hit the GY, the act itself reveals them. Since it's open information, I have to show him. I didn't actually know this, but it makes sense. Learn something new, etc. When I ask what the big fucking deal was, the judge takes me away from the table, and explains to me that my opponent was concerned I waS cheating. Hiding cards that shouldn't be in my deck. The judge saw the five cards before my opponent, immediately determined that wasn't the case, and just gave me a warning for concealing public info since everyone agreed on the five hidden cards. Karma is a bitch, though.....

G2: I open with land, PImp, Therapy for LED(hit). He Loots. I Breakthrough, and win effectively on the spot.

G3: He opens with Land, LED, Breakthrough, but doesn't hit much action. I have LED, Loot, and Study, and he can only hit two, so I get to discard on my turn. He swings for a couple turns, getting further ahead on board to the point that no one dredge will save me. I draw, and topdeck Breakthrough, which puts us close to parity. I pass the next turn with a Narco, and three Zombies in play. Three Ichorids with plenty of food in the yard, no Bridges left, and one card in my library at six life. My opponent ends his draw with three Ichorids in play, three Narcos in play, no Bridges(one left in library), about 15 cards left, and is at 11 life. He thinks for a few minutes, sacs his Ichorids to DR his FKZ, and swings with it and the three Narcos. I block a Narco with the same, and FKZ with a Zombie.

"Uh....ok. Take 4, I'm at two?" Opponent realized at the same time that I had a blocker for his Narco and FKZ, that he has no Bridges.

"Did I just lose?", he asks.

"Um....."

"Could you have even won if I didn't attack?"

"Ummmm....upkeep, trigger three Ichorids, swing with them and Zombies?" is my reply.

The worst part is, due to the aforementioned judge call, there are probably 60 people watching. I guess it's like they say. You need a few of these to go your way in any large tournament.


Round 11: Elves:G1: I go off turn two, and Therapy two NOrders. Game ends quickly

G2: When God Hands Collide: He opens with Fetch, Deathrite. I open with Gemstone, go. He taps Forest and Deathrite to cast Ooze, plays Cradle(?!), and says go. I EOT cast Firestorm for four, discarding FOUR DREDGERS! He asks about the resolution... yes, you can target two dudes before the spell resolves, yes your Ooze is a 4/4, yes you gain two life before losing four. Unfortunately, I still have this Breakthrough..........:tongue:

[GoldenCid]

And did you feel confortable with no dr main? I think that card is key for the deck.

[Parcher]

And did you feel confortable with no dr main? I think that card is key for the deck.

No. I think I would feel more comfortable running one DR main. I just didn't(and still don't) think it was better than the options I chose for this particular tournament. But I will likely add one back to the main. At the very least, it's better than the fourth Therapy post-board in a lot of matchups, and allows me to board out one and still have enough sac outlets.

[Bardu]

Thanks for you hard work Parcher!

I have been testing:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
1 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
1 Dread Return

Sideboard
4 Nature's Claim
4 Unmask
3 Pithing Needle
4 Other

I'm still working on the sideboard. I could play Chain of Vapor, Firestorm or something else. Sideboarding is tough with this deck, and I feel that the only thing we need to sideboard for is hate. And since by definition hate hampers our GY plan, we must address it before "going off." As such it must cost one to free.

I'm not sold on the 4th Ichorid in the main, but not sure I'd want the 4th Thug or Breakthrough either. I'm really happy with the rest of the mainboard.

This deck is so resilient. I was happy to see it Top 8 and GPDC. Also, it helps us considerably to be able to look at our opponent's decklist and see his sideboard plan.

[GoldenCid]

Thanks for you hard work Parcher!

I have been testing:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
1 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
1 Dread Return

Sideboard
4 Nature's Claim
4 Unmask
3 Pithing Needle
4 Other

.

This is the list i began to test when loothing saw the light. 4 ichorid 11 dredgers with -1 CC + 1 DR target. :wink:

[tyriion]

Hi guys, took dredge to another tournament after the big let down at BoM at the beginning of the month. Played my usual quadlazer -1 Ichorid +1 Dread Return.

My sideboard was
4x Chain of Vapor
3x Firestorm
3x Nether Shadow
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Ichorid
1x Dread Return
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria

This was a new group of players for me, I had only seen some decklists from T4s earlier in the year. So I had no idea what to expect.

R1 against Zoo
Game 1 I get to dredging nicely, while keeping him from bolting his Nacatl.

In come the Firestorms and the Grudges, out 1 PImp, 1 Study, 1 Looting, 1 LED and 1 Breakthrough. (I boarded more or less like that all day long and I pretty much liked the shaving thing)

Game 2 he surprises me with KotR into Bog and StP for my Ichorids, he manages to kill me with the KotR, a Nacatl and Gaddock Teeg. Bad mistake here as I crack LED for red instead of blue while I have an open Coliseum.
Game 3 I board out the Grudges and bring an extra DR+ Iona. Iona comes T3 after I ripped his hand and left him with double PuFi, Iona on red and 7 odd zombies.
1-0 (2-1)

R2 against BUG delver (not shardless)
Game 1 I get a rock solid hand (1 dredger, 2 lands, 2 study and 2 breakthrough) and I'm able to play through various counters.

In come Chain of Vapors and Firestorm (debatable this one) for an extra Breakthrough and Thug out.

Game 2 he has extract on Bridge and it slows me down enough that I scoop up with 6 minutes left in the round.
Game 3 he mulls to 2! I win it easily from there, even before time is called.
2-0 (4-2)

R3 against Junk
He played some kind of homebrew mix in the Junk colors, saw KotR, Cabal Therapy, Life from the Loam and Dark Depths. No lingering souls, but didn't look through his list afterwards. Game 1 I get a nutty 7 and he scoops up after I dredge for my 2nd turn.

In come Chain of Vapor and Nether Shadow.

Game 2 I manage to screw up pretty bad again. I get off to a decent start, but KotR into Bog slows me down, especially after a Deed for 2 kills my board. Then I have a CoV in hand, a Mine and Coliseum, when he goes for Thespian Stage and Dark Depths. I fail and activate coliseum without dredgers in the yard, instead of keeping mana open for the token.
Game 3 I don't have a superb hand, but I keep. I topdeck some nice stuff, but he gets a Bog lock going, quickly after I lose the round.
2-1 (5-4)

Until now I have been playing pretty badly, making numerous mistakes so I decide to man up.

R4 against UWR delver
Game 1 has a very good hand again and he quickly scoops them up.

In CoV and Firestorm (should have been grudge really)
Game 2 I get a very nice opener, but as I'm on the draw LED gets pierced. Then I have to wait a few turns as I can't cast my Looting from Coliseum. Natural discarded GGT and 1 ichorid that keeps returning together with some Moebas slowly nibble at his life total, as he manages to find nothing after an initial Lavamancer, SFM and Jitte. By the time he can equip the Jitte he had to shoot his SFM to exile two Bridges. I manage to swing for the win with a second Ichorid, without making more than 2 zombie tokens in a 10+ turn long game.
3-1 (7-4)

R5 against mono-B reanimator
It's this guys 2nd legacy tournament, so he tells me has never seen dredge before. I show him how it works game 1, after winning the die roll I rip his hand apart, DR an Ichorid and leave 12 zombies on the table.

In CoV and DR+Iona

He starts game 2 by Therapying himself, discarding Jin Gitaxias and showing me 2x exhume, 1x Reanimate, 1x Animate Dead and no additional land. So my hand with Coliseum and CoV stop him in his tracks as he fails to find another land. After I topdeck a LED for my turn (lucky bastard) I breakthrough for the win as he has no outs to Iona.

I end up 3rd and as I can get a ride home and the other guys didn't want to play either we split, netting me a Dark Confidant. The deck was a lot of fun again (dredge decks are bitches sometimes) and I had a blast with my sideboard. Didn't get to actually cast Firestorm, but I still think it's a good choice with all the delver decks running around. Will probably play the 4th in the SB next time instead of the last Ichorid as I never bring it in.

[Captain Hammer]

Hi guys,

Below is the list that I'm currently running, I would really appreciate your feedback or any needed changes or problems that you see. Thank you.

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Bridge from Below
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

[Parcher]

The Feature Matches from GPDC are up now. Regarding the commentary in my match against Shahar, I did NOT lose to Cuneo on Day One. I lost to Wescoe. While I have infinitely more respect for Cuneo than Wescoe, I have lost to Elves once ever, in what has to be over 25 matches. And that wasn't at GPDC. Losing to D&T when I mull five times, and Game Two he hits running Ratchet Bombs to sweep the board when the RiP he had was virtually dead before that doesn't bother me. Losing to a deck with no true hate, that I'm faster than, that also straight up loses to a 4-of Red Instant I run, would. After watching Game Three against Shahar again, I suppose I got a little greedy. He had no real clock, and the top card of my library turned out to be the third land, so I could have waited. I just honestly did not think he'd have two Deathrites, two counters, and the Relic all in hand on turn two/three.