[Deck] Dredge

[HammafistRoob]

Also please don't play Leyline when you're playing cantrips.

[drude1]

Also please don't play Leyline when you're playing cantrips.

Wha???


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[HammafistRoob]

I mean it makes more sense to play hate that you can actually draw into and cast.

[JPoJohnson]

I mean it makes more sense to play hate that you can actually draw into and cast.

So you think Witchbane Orb is a better option...?:eyebrow:

[Final Fortune]

What he's saying makes some sense, something like Coffin Purge is a decent option if you were to play against Reanimator but I think Leyline being free, uncounterable and pro-active still makes it probably the better choice.

[HammafistRoob]

Leyline just isn't very good in this deck in my opinion. I never even play graveyard hate in dredge though. If you really want free, uncounterable hate I'd play Faerie Macabre.

[Vandalize]

Leyline just isn't very good in this deck in my opinion. I never even play graveyard hate in dredge though. If you really want free, uncounterable hate I'd play Faerie Macabre.

I agree. They both have to be in your starting hand, and Faerie Macabre can also feed Ichorid.

[Michael Keller]

I agree. They both have to be in your starting hand, and Faerie Macabre can also feed Ichorid.

Big proponent of Faerie, here.

[HammafistRoob]

Faerie doesn't have to be in your opener, you can actually just Study/Looting into it on your furst turn. That's why I think it's miles better because on the draw you get to see 10 cards a majority of the time, or 9 cards on the play.

[Vlad Teppes]

Faerie macabre is awsome, the only problem with her is that our SB space is so narrow, it's hard to have room for more than 1 or at best 2 copies of them =/
If you are really desperate, I recommend coffin purge,it can be hardcast or flashed back for just 1 black mana

[Final Fortune]

Yeah I can't argue with Faerie, it's probably the best card vs Reanimator barring Thoughtseize.

[hellhound]

A second or third cabal therapy and/or lethal damage on the board next turn seem game breaker to me... I m not sold on faerie cause it's not so effective with LED and ichorid feed couldn't care less since I 'll play also the wraiths

[Final Fortune]

Just depends on whether or not Reanimator is a threat in your metagame, it's typically been a deck that has always had a favourable match up vs us so it makes some sense to metagame againt it if you think a graveyard deck is good in your metagame i.e. if you're playing Dredge then somebody is playing Reanimator.

Personally I just try to SB Firestorm, Duress, Ancient Grudge, Ray of Revelation and never end up with dead cards in the event that they don't draw their hate.

As an aside, I've been experimenting with the manabase (I don't know how people can play Quadlazer, it defies basic math for drawing and playing enough lands and DDD is dead as a strategy in post Deathrite Shaman times) and I think Lotus Petal is something we should be considering instead of lands 9 thru' 11. Lotus Petal seems amazing in here, because it increases our fundamental turn and protects us from Daze so I've been MDing and SBing them and bringing them in and out for lands depending on whether or not I'm on the draw or on the play and they make a marked difference in your aggressivity.

[Juicy Karaage]

As an aside, I've been experimenting with the manabase (I don't know how people can play Quadlazer, it defies basic math for drawing and playing enough lands and DDD is dead as a strategy in post Deathrite Shaman times) and I think Lotus Petal is something we should be considering instead of lands 9 thru' 11. Lotus Petal seems amazing in here, because it increases our fundamental turn and protects us from Daze so I've been MDing and SBing them and bringing them in and out for lands depending on whether or not I'm on the draw or on the play and they make a marked difference in your aggressivity.

I've been test playing MB Lotus Petal for months now, as a counter against Daze while increasing the Deck's speed and consistency. I've had great success with it since most opponents can't handle a T1 Careful Study/Faithless Looting -> Lotus Petal -> Study/Looting. Petal enables a whole load of tricks too.

[Final Fortune]

I've been test playing MB Lotus Petal for months now, as a counter against Daze while increasing the Deck's speed and consistency. I've had great success with it since most opponents can't handle a T1 Careful Study/Faithless Looting -> Lotus Petal -> Study/Looting. Petal enables a whole load of tricks too.

I've come to the same conclusion, what did you cut for Lotus Petal and how many Lotus Petals are you playing? I cut 1 Ichorid, 1 Putrid Imp, 1 Golgari Thug and 1 Breakthrough for the set because those are the weakest cards in the deck in my opinion, post-board I usually SB out Lotus Petal and Breakthrough on the draw so I can SB in 3 land and 4 Duress or Firestorm.

I figured that was the most well rounded way of going about it, but maybe you made more aggressive cuts to Putrid Imp or something? I've been thinking about fiddling with the numbers a bit, like only 7 gold lands or only 3 Lotus Petal for the 4th Golgari Thug or the 4th Breakthrough.

[Juicy Karaage]

I've come to the same conclusion, what did you cut for Lotus Petal and how many Lotus Petals are you playing? I cut 1 Ichorid, 1 Putrid Imp, 1 Golgari Thug and 1 Breakthrough for the set because those are the weakest cards in the deck in my opinion, post-board I usually SB out Lotus Petal and Breakthrough on the draw so I can SB in 3 land and 4 Duress or Firestorm.

I figured that was the most well rounded way of going about it, but maybe you made more aggressive cuts to Putrid Imp or something? I've been thinking about fiddling with the numbers a bit, like only 7 gold lands or only 3 Lotus Petal for the 4th Golgari Thug or the 4th Breakthrough.

The core remains pretty much the same for me, 12 Lands, 11 Dredgers, 3 Ichorids, 3 Putrid Imps, 4 Careful Study, 4 Faithless Looting, 3 Breakthrough, 4 Cabal Therapy while adding 4 Lotus Petals. So yeah, we cut the same cards. Recently though, the 4th Petal feels like an excess so i've been experimenting with the 12th Dredger/Singleton DR.

[Final Fortune]

Yeah 16 sources is a bit of a mana glut compared to 15, not sure if I want to cut a Gold Land or a Lotus Petal tho' and I was looking at the 4th Breakthrough.

4th Petal is probably too much, I still really think we need lands between the MD and SB for stability in grindier match ups.

[Technics]

What are your guys thoughts on this board. Currently i run 3 ichorid main, 1 dread return with no targets and 13 lands.

1 Dread Return
1 Iona
1 Elesh
3 Whispmare
2 Natures Claim
2 Igot Chewer
3 Firestorm
2 Nether Shadow

Thinking of cutting the shadows and 1 firestorm for 3 mindbreak trap for SCG this weekend. Thoughts?

[Parcher]

What are your guys thoughts on this board. Currently i run 3 ichorid main, 1 dread return with no targets and 13 lands.

1 Dread Return
1 Iona
1 Elesh
3 Whispmare
2 Natures Claim
2 Igot Chewer
3 Firestorm
2 Nether Shadow

Thinking of cutting the shadows and 1 firestorm for 3 mindbreak trap for SCG this weekend. Thoughts?

I would cut the Norn and the 2 Shadows. If you have 3 Fstorm, you probably don't need the Norn. Fstorm also is better as a 3-of since it has incidental use as a discard outlet against Tempo, which is always good. I don't like Trap as a replacement, though. While Trap is slightly better against Storm, Unmask is far better against Reanimator and Sneak and Show. Both which can be problematic. It also combines better with the 3 Wisp/2 Claim against Miracles, Since nabbing a RiP, Top, or ETutor before they can play or protect it is better than trying to remove it. In most current metas, Storm is less prevelant than any of the aforementioned decks.


EDIT: That reminds me. Unmask is also great in conjuction with your Artifact hate against DeathBlade decks running Surgical.

[raikenxy]

What are your guys thoughts on this board. Currently i run 3 ichorid main, 1 dread return with no targets and 13 lands.

1 Dread Return
1 Iona
1 Elesh
3 Whispmare
2 Natures Claim
2 Igot Chewer
3 Firestorm
2 Nether Shadow

Thinking of cutting the shadows and 1 firestorm for 3 mindbreak trap for SCG this weekend. Thoughts?


Instead cut the 2 nature's claim, surgical extraction is still a thing and nether shadow is great for fighting it.

[JPoJohnson]

Lately I've found that I haven't been running Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite since she just wasn't being sided in all that much... and when she was, it wasn't making a huge impact. Thoughts?

[Technics]

Instead cut the 2 nature's claim, surgical extraction is still a thing and nether shadow is great for fighting it.

I really like having 5 answers to RiP or 4 answers to cage when needed. Also running the claim allows me to board in the whispmare/claims against Death and Taxes, and if I don't see a RiP be able to get rid of a batterskull. That removal suite is really strong, and I don't think I want to touch it.

@Parcher: I like the idea of cutting the Elesh. Really the only match-up i feel Elesh is strictly better than firestorm is against the mirror and elves. But you're probably right, I should be expecting to face WAY more delver than elves/dredge. I'm not really sure about unmask though. Playing in the LA open I'm expecting a good amount of storm, and as a storm player, having to play around mindbreak trap + therapy's is much harder than just playing around discard. Between needing answers to discard (play everything out early) traps (need a discard spell) and the threat of Iona (need bounce/to go off fast) can be much more challenging than just having to beat 1-2 of those angles.

Then other consideration however is surgicals of my own. You can use them to prevent removal of your dredgers, they are decent against ANT, and they help to shore up the reanimator match-up.

[DarkJester]

I really like having 5 answers to RiP or 4 answers to cage when needed. Also running the claim allows me to board in the whispmare/claims against Death and Taxes, and if I don't see a RiP be able to get rid of a batterskull. That removal suite is really strong, and I don't think I want to touch it.

@Parcher: I like the idea of cutting the Elesh. Really the only match-up i feel Elesh is strictly better than firestorm is against the mirror and elves. But you're probably right, I should be expecting to face WAY more delver than elves/dredge. I'm not really sure about unmask though. Playing in the LA open I'm expecting a good amount of storm, and as a storm player, having to play around mindbreak trap + therapy's is much harder than just playing around discard. Between needing answers to discard (play everything out early) traps (need a discard spell) and the threat of Iona (need bounce/to go off fast) can be much more challenging than just having to beat 1-2 of those angles.

Then other consideration however is surgicals of my own. You can use them to prevent removal of your dredgers, they are decent against ANT, and they help to shore up the reanimator match-up.

Firestorm is pretty NUTS against Elves too, because it wipes their board and helps fighting an early Shaman, maybe better than Elesh (which is a lock against them if it EtB, but, you know... IF) ;)

[Technics]

Firestorm is pretty NUTS against Elves too, because it wipes their board and helps fighting an early Shaman, maybe better than Elesh (which is a lock against them if it EtB, but, you know... IF) ;)

Exactly. Elesh is a hardlock, but it's an if, and it's not as good against tempo as a 3rd Firestorm is.

[JPoJohnson]

Exactly. Elesh is a hardlock, but it's an if, and it's not as good against tempo as a 3rd Firestorm is.

I dropped Elesh for a 3rd Firestorm.

[Vlad Teppes]

Elesh is too good IMO
It's nut against all creature decks, and you need only a single copy (2 to max your chance), goblins can't awnser it, Merfolk it's a counter it or die, elves is a hardlock, and it's good against the rest of the field as well.

[Timber]

So I'm confused about something in this manaless list that took 7th at the SCG Open yesterday:

How do you avoid decking yourself when you dread return Balustrade Spy? What am I missing?

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=65253

[Holly]

You don't and you don't need to. You're not going to lose to having no cards available to draw since you won't pass the turn. Instead you DR a flayer and a troll to kill your opponent.

[Timber]

Right, you don't lose to decking until you have to draw a card, but since you don't pass the turn, you never attempt to draw without a library. That's what I was missing.

Thanks!

[JPoJohnson]

So I'm confused about something in this manaless list that took 7th at the SCG Open yesterday:

How do you avoid decking yourself when you dread return Balustrade Spy? What am I missing?

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=65253

Also, Manaless has it's own thread just FYI:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21544-Deck-Manaless-Ichorid

[vikingus666]

Hey guys.

I need a bit of help to bring my SB to the next level for what concerns gravehate, and I've read with interest the sideboards you have posted in the last page. My SB in this period looks like this:

1 DR
1 Elesh
1 Iona
1 Ashen Rider
4 Nature's claim
4 Firestorm
1 Tarnished citadel
2 Unmask

I usually have 4x Nature's claim (plus 1x Tarnished citadel to cast them) as an all-round answer to permanent-based gravehate, and I side them in by pulling out 4x breakthrough and some other card in virtually every G2. 2x Unmask come in against combo, but they have also proven useful to remove RiP and Oozes before they hit the table.

However I've seen that against permanent-based hate you use a combination of Claims, Wispmare and Ingot Chewer for a total number of 6-8 cards. I'm aware that the advantage of using Wispmare and Chewer is that they can dodge Spellpierce and Duress + net some zombies if a bridge is in the grave. But there are several decks (for example Death&Taxes, Maverick, Bant, Esper/Deathblade, Jund, BUG) which have gravehate both in form of enchantments (RiP, LotV) and artifacts (Cage, Relic, Spellbomb, Crypt), and having only 2x Claims or hoping to draw the right answer (wispmare/chewer) to their question doesn't seem enough reliable. So how do you side in wispmare and chewer when you're against a deck packing different kinds of threats? Can you maybe give some indications for the specific matchups?

(I didn't mention Ancient grudge because it seems to be unpopular nowadays, and I never played it myself because it is either too expensive or a dead card against Cage; maybe you have any thoughts about it?)

It seems also that many people in this thread are very fond of Firestorm, to the point of proposing the cut of Elesh norn to pack more copies of it. I've always been told that Firestorm is necessary in each dredge SB, but I have to admit that I have never used it apart from the elves matchup. In g2 and g3 I always end thinking that I'd rather have enchantment/artifact removal to clear the coast and then invade the table with zombies instead of trying to dodge counters and hope to shoot some problem creatures (DRS, ooze) that can be beaten by a fast hand. I have even been tempted to remove Firestorm and add some copies of Nether shadow to fight Surgical extraction. Am I misunderstanding how to play Firestorm? Can you guys please give me some advice and examples about in which matchups you use it?

Thanks in advice for your help!

[Technics]

Firestorm was my most boarded in card yesterday (came in 5/6 match-ups before I dropped to go home). It kills Ooze, DRS, Delver, Bob, Thalia's. Was great against Jund when you kill a Bob and a DRS while using it to pitch your dredger for the next turn. I would never run less than 3.

[Nitrospira]

I'm in the process of finishing up my Dredge deck, and am working on the sideboard. I found this gem while browsing:

//mainboard
Creatures [27]
3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith

Instants [1]
1 Firestorm

Sorceries [12]
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting

Enchantments [4]
4 Bridge from Below

Artifacts [4]
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

Lands [12]
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

//sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
3 Firestorm
2 Dread Return
4 Nature's Claim
1 Griselbrand
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Slash Panther
the link: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13158&iddeck=96544

Can anybody explain this....After considerable thought, I still think it's a random card that's just bringing the board up to 15 cards
Also, I'm still on the fence about Street Wraith vs Careful Study. I've tried both, and my general experience is that Wraith grants more resilience while Study provides more explosive power. Opinions?

[Hencules]

I'm in the process of finishing up my Dredge deck, and am working on the sideboard. I found this gem while browsing:

list
the link: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13158&iddeck=96544

Can anybody explain this....After considerable thought, I still think it's a random card that's just bringing the board up to 15 cards
Also, I'm still on the fence about Street Wraith vs Careful Study. I've tried both, and my general experience is that Wraith grants more resilience while Study provides more explosive power. Opinions?

I think the last card is just dump filler. I see absolutely no application. About wraith vs study: I prefer study, but it seems a meta choice. Wraith is good against DRS, and pitches to Ichorid (which is again good against DRS). However, what I like about study is that it also provides with more consistency. Study actually is both a drawer and a discarder, which makes it a great card in multiple phases of the game. Matter of preference though. I'm not sure if you use the list you posted as well, but I don't think anyone should ever play fewer than 12 dredgers in dredge. It's like playing only 3 brainstorm, while it might be the best card in most decks.

[Nitrospira]

I think the last card is just dump filler. I see absolutely no application. About wraith vs study: I prefer study, but it seems a meta choice. Wraith is good against DRS, and pitches to Ichorid (which is again good against DRS). However, what I like about study is that it also provides with more consistency. Study actually is both a drawer and a discarder, which makes it a great card in multiple phases of the game. Matter of preference though. I'm not sure if you use the list you posted as well, but I don't think anyone should ever play fewer than 12 dredgers in dredge. It's like playing only 3 brainstorm, while it might be the best card in most decks.

Thanks for the input; I'll probably go with Study.

My main is the posted list, except -4 Street Wraith -1 Firestorm +4 Careful Study +1 Golgari Thug
My current board is the following:
3 Firestorm
3 Dread Return
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Nature's Claim
1 Tarnished Citadel
2 ?

[Technics]

Quick Re-cap of SCG LA.

Round 1 - Death and Taxes
G1: LED + Breakthrough + Faithless + Dredgers
G2: 2 LED + Faithless + Dredgers
2-0
1-1

Round 2 - Manaless Dredge
G1: I'm one turn slow, and lose
G2: I'm one turn faster, and win
G3: I'm one turn slow, and lose, top card of the library? Surgical Extraction. *face palm*
1-2
1-1

Round 3 - Red Painter
G1: Blow him out
G2: He gets the turn 3 win with a turn 1 chalice for 1. :-\
G3: I have double Claim + Chewer with 1 land. He plays turn 2 painter, turn 3 painter + grind win. (I skipped playing the land turn 1 to discard). :-\
1-2
1-2

Round 4 - Jund
G1: I own face
G2: He keeps a hand with turn 1 cage, and triple DRS. I am 1 turn short of getting there after multiple firestorms, but no removal for cage.
G3: I eat his brains.
2-1
2-2

Round 5 - Mavrik
G1: I loose!
G2: We go back and forth with him only have 2 green, and a Ooze. Eventually I make enough Horror's to win.
G3: Eat his face super quick!
2-1
3-2

Round 6 - UWr Delver
G1: He drops a delver, and counters everything all game. I die before getting going.
G2: Eat some brains!
G3: I go for it, rip a RIP, and he's madly digging for the second RiP while i eat him.
2-1
4-2

Round 7 - Big Red
G1: Turn 1 blind rip Sneak Attack, he gets down a Trini turn 3 off the top.
G2: Turn 2 blood moon after taking the Sneak Attack again. Turn 4 Trini.
0-2
4-3

[Alessar]

I want to suggest a Dread Return target, the creature Overbeing of Myth. In a dredge deck she's always BIG and she give to you an extra dredge!

220

I play manaless dredge and I love this card! :eek:

[Holly]

And this card has what advantage over Griselbrand, Whirlpool-Rider, Sphinx of Lost Truth, River Kelpie or every other DR-target which draws you 3-7 cards IMMEDIATELY thus winning you the game? (Or even Sun Titan to return LED to flashback looting). You get a 4/4 ? Wow.. beats the 7/7 lifelink and the 3/5 flier or the 6/6 vigilance guy.

Why not Vizzerdrix? It's always 6/6 thats big.. well at little smaller than lets say our beloved Troll but who cares its a rabbit !

[Alessar]

And this card has what advantage over Griselbrand, Whirlpool-Rider, Sphinx of Lost Truth, River Kelpie or every other DR-target which draws you 3-7 cards IMMEDIATELY thus winning you the game? (Or even Sun Titan to return LED to flashback looting). You get a 4/4 ? Wow.. beats the 7/7 lifelink and the 3/5 flier or the 6/6 vigilance guy.

Why not Vizzerdrix? It's always 6/6 thats big.. well at little smaller than lets say our beloved Troll but who cares its a rabbit !


Vizzerdrix is a very good idea indeed! :tongue:

Ok, Sphinx is better, you're right!! :eek:

[Vlad Teppes]

Vizzerdrix is a very good idea indeed! :tongue:

Ok, Sphinx is better, you're right!! :eek:

If it was only for the coolness, let's all run sea monster in our sideboards!
most of the field uses blue to some sort, so it has NO drawbacks!
who cares if it has no evasion? It's a 6/6 giant serpent, All the opponents would scoop anyway !

[JPoJohnson]

It feels very win-more.

[Vlad Teppes]

It feels very win-more.

Well, we ARE talking about impraticable DR targets.
IF we are making a bad choice, at least put a cool creature in it =P

[Final Fortune]

Well, we ARE talking about impraticable DR targets.
IF we are making a bad choice, at least put a cool creature in it =P

Just wait until you Griselbrand into a Nichol Bolas with Dragon's Breath, that's a fucking ultra combo right there.

[Hencules]

So this is my current list:

[Lands]
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

[Dredgers]
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

[Enablers]
4 Putrid Imp
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
2 Dread Return
4 Narcomoeba

[Combo stuff]
3 Breakthrough
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond

[Kill]
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below

[Sideboard]
1 Dread Return
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Griselbrand
4 Nether Shadow
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Breakthrough
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Nature’s Claim


I play DR main, but with no dedicated targets. Resolving it alone is often powerful enough G1.

My current plan is to board as such:

Against DRS/Midrange decks:
-3 breakthrough
-2 Dread return
-4 LED

+ 4 nature's claim
+ 4 nether shadow
+ 1 tarnished citadel

Against decks I want to race (i.e. general faster combo decks):
- 4 ichorid
- slot I don't like in the MU
+ 1 breakthrough
+ 1 Dread Return
+ 1 Griselbrand (to keep the engine going in one turn)
+ 1 Flame-kin Zealot (To get the kill)
+ 1 Iona/Elesh (whichever's better in the respective MU)

However, what I still don't really do well is boarding against Miracles/Permission decks. How would you go about it? Any general comments/tips to my build?

Meta consists of lots of fair decks (Junk/Deathblade/Merfolk/Miracles) and a some conventional unfair decks (Elves, Storm & Reanimator). There's almost no Tempo, Sneak&Show, Omnitell or painted stone going on.

Any suggestions?

[instant EDIT: I also am still very much in debate with myself regarding Dread return. I think it's great against an unknown opponent, but I feel it generally sucks against any permission/DRS deck. What do you think?

[Final Fortune]

Dread Return probably sucks in the MD and in the SB right now, nobody really plays Surgical Extraction over Deathrite Shaman, Rest in Peace, Grafdigger's Cage and Nihil Spellbomb so diversifying your sacrifice cards really isn't necessary.

If the deck is going to evolve at all, I think you have to look at other avenues than Dread Return, like Lotus Petal instead of Lands and Street Wraith or Phantasmagorian instead of Putrid Imp.

[Hencules]

I feel the same way, however with my very limited experience I prefer learning to drive before I try to reinvent the wheel.

Are people currently involved in evolving this deck? New innovations are always awesome!

[raikenxy]

Dread Return probably sucks in the MD and in the SB right now, nobody really plays Surgical Extraction over Deathrite Shaman, Rest in Peace, Grafdigger's Cage and Nihil Spellbomb so diversifying your sacrifice cards really isn't necessary.

If the deck is going to evolve at all, I think you have to look at other avenues than Dread Return, like Lotus Petal instead of Lands and Street Wraith or Phantasmagorian instead of Putrid Imp.

lotus petal, street wraith, and phantasmagorian have all been tried in LED dredge and have been deemed unnecessary. these concepts really aren't new or innovative. the deck is powerful enough to win with these in the list but that just goes back to the intrinsic power of the archetype. Dredge is busted, we all know that. street wraith is a cute trick but when i tested him i've always ended up wishing it was simply a breakthrough. phantasmagorian has the ability to let you keep hands with no enabler but it doesn't allow you the speed to overwhelm decks. Lotus petal i've always seen just being useful in combo match-ups, and would put them in the sideboard just for that purpose over maindeck, but as personal preference i wouldn't run it anyway. It ends up only being useful against decks without force of will, and you'll most likely have to sideboard out lands to bring them in since the list is so tight. Yeah you'll be to play two lands on turn one, and even as i type that it sounds exciting, but i think it falls in the danger of doing cool things that are just unnecessary

[Final Fortune]

lotus petal, street wraith, and phantasmagorian have all been tried in LED dredge and have been deemed unnecessary. these concepts really aren't new or innovative. the deck is powerful enough to win with these in the list but that just goes back to the intrinsic power of the archetype. Dredge is busted, we all know that. street wraith is a cute trick but when i tested him i've always ended up wishing it was simply a breakthrough. phantasmagorian has the ability to let you keep hands with no enabler but it doesn't allow you the speed to overwhelm decks. Lotus petal i've always seen just being useful in combo match-ups, and would put them in the sideboard just for that purpose over maindeck, but as personal preference i wouldn't run it anyway. It ends up only being useful against decks without force of will, and you'll most likely have to sideboard out lands to bring them in since the list is so tight. Yeah you'll be to play two lands on turn one, and even as i type that it sounds exciting, but i think it falls in the danger of doing cool things that are just unnecessary

I don't think you get what's happening in the meta game, it's not about what we have tried before it's about what we should be trying right now. MD Deathrite Shaman is ubiquitous, and SB hate is either Rest in Peace or Grafdigger's Cage instead of Surgical Extraction or Relic of Progenitus. If you take the time to think about it, Putrid Imp is too slow vs Deathrite Shaman on the draw and unnecessary vs SBs because there really are no more Tormod's Crypt effects other than Nihil Spellbomb in the metagame. So you either have to speed the deck up by converting the mana base to Lotus Petals so you can Putrid Imp and then draw on the same turn, or you have to cut Putrid Imp as the way forward.

Of course you'd rather have Breakthrough than Street Wraith, that's not the point because we already have Breakthrough. The point is whether or not we can eliminate the weakest card in the deck in favour of a card that doesn't cost mana, and our options are either Street Wraith, Phantasmagorian or Shambling Shell because we need a X black creature count. That in turn lets us run fewer land, because we have to cast fewer spells and we could speed up the deck by playing Careful Study and then immediately dredging off a Street Wraith or discarding our hand to a Phantasmagorian.

I can't say with any certainty what is right or wrong because all of my previous attempts to cut Putrid Imp have failed, but that was when people were playing Relic of Progenitus which they don't play any more. I find Lotus Petal invaluable vs aggro-control in the same sense that Lion's Eye Diamond is invaluable vs aggro-control, because it allows me to counter Daze and make Putrid Imp relevant on the draw and I like 4 Street Wraith and 2 Phantasmagorian because I have cards that do relevant things for free.

It may be entirely true Putrid Imp is just the best of the worst choices but I think people's tinkering right now has some merit, it could also just be a question of cutting down to like 2 Putrid Imp too I guess but that card is just less than stellar right now.

[raikenxy]

I don't think you get what's happening in the meta game, it's not about what we have tried before it's about what we should be trying right now. MD Deathrite Shaman is ubiquitous, and SB hate is either Rest in Peace or Grafdigger's Cage instead of Surgical Extraction or Relic of Progenitus. If you take the time to think about it, Putrid Imp is too slow vs Deathrite Shaman on the draw and unnecessary vs SBs because there really are no more Tormod's Crypt effects other than Nihil Spellbomb in the metagame. So you either have to speed the deck up by converting the mana base to Lotus Petals so you can Putrid Imp and then draw on the same turn, or you have to cut Putrid Imp as the way forward.

Of course you'd rather have Breakthrough than Street Wraith, that's not the point because we already have Breakthrough. The point is whether or not we can eliminate the weakest card in the deck in favour of a card that doesn't cost mana, and our options are either Street Wraith, Phantasmagorian or Shambling Shell because we need a X black creature count. That in turn lets us run fewer land, because we have to cast fewer spells and we could speed up the deck by playing Careful Study and then immediately dredging off a Street Wraith or discarding our hand to a Phantasmagorian.

I can't say with any certainty what is right or wrong because all of my previous attempts to cut Putrid Imp have failed, but that was when people were playing Relic of Progenitus which they don't play any more. I find Lotus Petal invaluable vs aggro-control in the same sense that Lion's Eye Diamond is invaluable vs aggro-control, because it allows me to counter Daze and make Putrid Imp relevant on the draw and I like 4 Street Wraith and 2 Phantasmagorian because I have cards that do relevant things for free.

It may be entirely true Putrid Imp is just the best of the worst choices but I think people's tinkering right now has some merit, it could also just be a question of cutting down to like 2 Putrid Imp too I guess but that card is just less than stellar right now.


I don't think you can ever reply to a thread without a passive aggressive comment regarding a persons magic knowledge. If you want to waste your time with street wraith, phantasmagorian and lotus petal feel free. I already did and have found them to be nothing special or game changing. Dredge is more then capable of winnning in this metagame, if you want to dismiss the feedback of someone who's already tried these idea's then feel free.

[joemauer]

Final Fortune is right, and this coming from a person who rarely agrees with him.

Cards like Nether Shadow are a waste of space in the sideboard. That is sideboard tech intended for the days of Snapcaster+Surgical, neither of which are played at the moment.

The only staple in the sideboard at the moment should be x4 Nature's Claim.

Deathrite Shaman being in every deck in the Legacy metagame is indeed a hurdle for us right now. I think manaless dredge is better positioned right now because of this fact, but manaless has its own set of problems. But we should borrow from the strengths of manaless. Cards like Street Wraith help. It may also be time to squeeze in a "I win" Dread Return package as Shaman does nothing when you can win in one turn.

Also, Putrid Imp may be better replaced by Firestorm.

IDK, these are just thoughts and ideas. But if dredge wants to be competive again, it needs to adapt to the new metagame. Dismissing someone's ideas of trying something different won't help this become competive again despite how "capable" people may think dredge is at the moment.

[Hencules]

Final Fortune is right, and this coming from a person who rarely agrees with him.

Cards like Nether Shadow are a waste of space in the sideboard. That is sideboard tech intended for the days of Snapcaster+Surgical, neither of which are played at the moment.

The only staple in the sideboard at the moment should be x4 Nature's Claim.

Deathrite Shaman being in every deck in the Legacy metagame is indeed a hurdle for us right now. I think manaless dredge is better positioned right now because of this fact, but manaless has its own set of problems. But we should borrow from the strengths of manaless. Cards like Street Wraith help. It may also be time to squeeze in a "I win" Dread Return package as Shaman does nothing when you can win in one turn.

Also, Putrid Imp may be better replaced by Firestorm.

IDK, these are just thoughts and ideas. But if dredge wants to be competive again, it needs to adapt to the new metagame. Dismissing someone's ideas of trying something different won't help this become competive again despite how "capable" people may think dredge is at the moment.

I can only speak to my own experience, but from what I've found out so far it feels like Nether Spirit is 'good' against DRS while Dread Return isn't. Dread Return is just a single big threat which requires a lot of resources. If they respond by exiling your DR target, you're toast. However, I do like maxing on cheap, smaller threats (i.e. Nether Spirit). If you can overwhelm them, their 'one-card-a-turn' removal doesn't make a big difference anymore.

Other than that, I completely agree regarding innovation. Dredge needs experimenting and, funny enough, more rule-breaking (weren't we doing this enough before?). For instance, in LED dredge it feels like rainbowlands are the 'weakest' thing in the deck right now. Every card in the deck serves multiple purposes (Pimp: discard and ichorid fodder, Study/Looting/Breakthrough: enabler, yard-filler, CA etc). Cephalid coliseum is über-multipurpose. Perhaps cut some of the rainbowlands for Lotus Petal doesn't sound like such a strange idea!

[Vlad Teppes]

I can only speak to my own experience, but from what I've found out so far it feels like Nether Spirit is 'good' against DRS while Dread Return isn't. Dread Return is just a single big threat which requires a lot of resources. If they respond by exiling your DR target, you're toast. However, I do like maxing on cheap, smaller threats (i.e. Nether Spirit). If you can overwhelm them, their 'one-card-a-turn' removal doesn't make a big difference anymore.

Other than that, I completely agree regarding innovation. Dredge needs experimenting and, funny enough, more rule-breaking (weren't we doing this enough before?). For instance, in LED dredge it feels like rainbowlands are the 'weakest' thing in the deck right now. Every card in the deck serves multiple purposes (Pimp: discard and ichorid fodder, Study/Looting/Breakthrough: enabler, yard-filler, CA etc). Cephalid coliseum is über-multipurpose. Perhaps cut some of the rainbowlands for Lotus Petal doesn't sound like such a strange idea!

I'm a fan or replacing PImp for something else, but Ichorid will suffer for not having enough black creatures to eat, we can allways go back to the bloodghast package (meh).

Right now, I'm using Brainstorm instead of breaktrough (yeah, that again) and I'm find a lot of my opponents are frustraded and confused by it and it helps a little against disruption, well that's my 2 cents.



The only staple in the sideboard at the moment should be x4 Nature's Claim.

IMO chain of vapor > Nature's claim, yeah they can bounce back a narcomoeba, Ichorid or zombie token (at the cost of a land, no less) but we are bouncing back their hate/creature/whatever and we can just cast it out of any of our lands!

[Hencules]

I'm a fan or replacing PImp for something else, but Ichorid will suffer for not having enough black creatures to eat, we can allways go back to the bloodghast package (meh).

Right now, I'm using Brainstorm instead of breaktrough (yeah, that again) and I'm find a lot of my opponents are frustraded and confused by it and it helps a little against disruption, well that's my 2 cents.

I don't really like Bloodghast (and from your comment, I gather you don't either). Brainstorm seems interesting. However, it feels like it would 'mess up your draws', which is a very odd sentence.... It draws only three where breakthrough draws four. And it effectively has 'Dredge negative 2', as it causes you to put two cards on top. There are cools things you can do with it, I feel now:

- hide cards from discard
- stack Narcomoeba in your opener on top
- If you already have a dredger in your yard, it functions as a 'discard outlet' (put cards you want in your yard on top and then dredge)
- it saves your dredge spells from DRS (with instant speed draw we only had before in Cephalid Coliseum)
- Brainstorm works best with shuffle effects. However, we play twelve ways to get rid of the top cards of our deck, which is just as good.
- You get to act as if you're TES, making them think Counterbalance is good against you

Main downsides IMO

- You have to invest mana you rarely have
- I think on your first turn, I'd way rather have careful study or any other ACTUAL yard filler.

Other opinions?

[Hencules]

BTW I update my list. Dread Return belongs in the SB right now, IMO. My current list is full Quad Laser with exception of -1 careful study +1 tarnished citadel.

I'm still as green a rookie as can be with this deck. I'll keep on the safe paths (while keeping an open mind ofc).

[Hencules]

How about a staple from years past? Winds of Change in the board. When you sideboard, board out your breakthroughs for winds of change. Performs a (somewhat) similar role, while the hand the opponent keeps (with hate in it, otherwise he wouldn't keep) gets shuffled away. Is this strange reasoning?

[indefinite.soul]

If quadlazer tries to squeeze lotus petal and street wraith, I'd givea try with this:

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Faithless Looting
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Breakthrough
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
3 Lotus Petal
3 Putrid Imp
3 Street Wraith

I don't think this needs firestorm, but since we do have 3 street wraiths for ichorid you can -3 putrid imp +3 firestorm (and then maybe -1 bridge from below +1 cabal therapy, since you don't want to discard a bridge for firestorm or it will get exiled, but if you don't it will just sit there forever).


If we also want dr package:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Breakthrough
3 Bridge from Below
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
3 Faithless Looting
3 Firestorm
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Lotus Petal
3 Street Wraith
2 Dread Return
1 Griselbrand (or whatever)

Here I already changed putrid imp for firestorm, for -1 bridge from below was "necessary". Sideboard gets more space since you already have dr package main deck.


None of this was tested, but i'll.

Personally, I think 2nd option looses too much in consistency.

PS: Yeah, I know there are some cards with only 3 copies that makes us sick just to see...

[Vlad Teppes]

I don't really like Bloodghast (and from your comment, I gather you don't either). Brainstorm seems interesting. However, it feels like it would 'mess up your draws', which is a very odd sentence.... It draws only three where breakthrough draws four. And it effectively has 'Dredge negative 2', as it causes you to put two cards on top. There are cools things you can do with it, I feel now:

- hide cards from discard
- stack Narcomoeba in your opener on top
- If you already have a dredger in your yard, it functions as a 'discard outlet' (put cards you want in your yard on top and then dredge)
- it saves your dredge spells from DRS (with instant speed draw we only had before in Cephalid Coliseum)
- Brainstorm works best with shuffle effects. However, we play twelve ways to get rid of the top cards of our deck, which is just as good.
- You get to act as if you're TES, making them think Counterbalance is good against you

Main downsides IMO

- You have to invest mana you rarely have
- I think on your first turn, I'd way rather have careful study or any other ACTUAL yard filler.

Other opinions?

Yeah, bloodghast is an aswome card, but not in LED dredge (belive me, I tried) and brainstorm is not without it's faults, with less discard outlets I sometimes have to DDD in order to get my first dredger in the GY and it makes me vulnerable to turn 1 DR shaman

And instant speed is sweet bro, dredging in response to DR shaman is a sight to behold

[haole]

i'm gonna drop my LED's and faithless looting for bloodghast, life from the loam, and add in a flayer of the hatebound. Flayer plus bloodghast and ichorid triggers is pretty sick. I played in Charlotte this weekend and LED was only good in my opening hand or on my second turn because by the third turn i'm usually dredging my library away. i think playing a more conservative route is the way to go.

[Vlad Teppes]

i'm gonna drop my LED's and faithless looting for bloodghast, life from the loam, and add in a flayer of the hatebound. Flayer plus bloodghast and ichorid triggers is pretty sick. I played in Charlotte this weekend and LED was only good in my opening hand or on my second turn because by the third turn i'm usually dredging my library away. i think playing a more conservative route is the way to go.

casting Life from the loam with only 14 lands is gonna be tough bro, Playing conservative is indeed a way to go.
I preffer to embrace the combo variation, explosive starts to finish my games quickly, giving them little time to react or counterattack, game 2 I play the grindy matchup removing the LEDs (deppending on the matchup of course) adding some Chain of vapor and grudges to counteract their hate, or the DR package if they are playing tribal, or just Firestorm to wipe the field/ get some tokens in a hurry.

[ottofromorbit]

casting Life from the loam with only 14 lands is gonna be tough bro, Playing conservative is indeed a way to go.
I preffer to embrace the combo variation, explosive starts to finish my games quickly, giving them little time to react or counterattack, game 2 I play the grindy matchup removing the LEDs (deppending on the matchup of course) adding some Chain of vapor and grudges to counteract their hate, or the DR package if they are playing tribal, or just Firestorm to wipe the field/ get some tokens in a hurry.

[ottofromorbit]

If quadlazer tries to squeeze lotus petal and street wraith, I'd givea try with this:

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Faithless Looting
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Breakthrough
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
3 Lotus Petal
3 Putrid Imp
3 Street Wraith

I don't think this needs firestorm, but since we do have 3 street wraiths for ichorid you can -3 putrid imp +3 firestorm (and then maybe -1 bridge from below +1 cabal therapy, since you don't want to discard a bridge for firestorm or it will get exiled, but if you don't it will just sit there forever).


If we also want dr package:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Breakthrough
3 Bridge from Below
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
3 Faithless Looting
3 Firestorm
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Lotus Petal
3 Street Wraith
2 Dread Return
1 Griselbrand (or whatever)

Here I already changed putrid imp for firestorm, for -1 bridge from below was "necessary". Sideboard gets more space since you already have dr package main deck.


None of this was tested, but i'll.

Personally, I think 2nd option looses too much in consistency.

PS: Yeah, I know there are some cards with only 3 copies that makes us sick just to see...

Kk I like where this is going.
With streetwraith and lotus petal back in the our main and the resilient quad laser list ...may offer a faster advantage.
I love resolving breakthroughs. Is there and point to trying out tolarian winds now that the wraith and petal are in?

[indefinite.soul]

The evolution of the quadlazer will be the trilazer.

Mark my words!

HAUHAUHAUHAUHAUHAUAHUAHUAHAUHAUHAUHAU

And no, I don't like any card with cc > 1 in any dredge version (personal note).

[Vlad Teppes]

The evolution of the quadlazer will be the trilazer.

Mark my words!

HAUHAUHAUHAUHAUHAUAHUAHUAHAUHAUHAUHAU

And no, I don't like any card with cc > 1 in any dredge version (personal note).

2 is doable, but it usualy involves in taking too much damage, loosing counters on our gemstone mines, or NOT activating coliseum for the turn =/
and it sucks when you are using Undiscovered paradise

[Holynorth]

Is there a guide somewhere on how to sideboard Quadlazer dredge? I'm new to dredge and have absolutely no idea on what to take out.

[HammafistRoob]

I'm not aware of any existing sideboard guides, but it depends on what you're facing, and what your sideboard looks like. The most commonly boarded out cards are LEDs and Breakthroughs, since they pretty much force you to go all in which can lead to tragedy against grave sweepers. I prefer to take out LEDs more often than not since Breakthrough is better at leading to blowouts and helping you rebuild should the need arise.

[Holynorth]

That makes a lot of sense; thank you.

[HammafistRoob]

No problem. The only time I side out Breakthrough over LED is against decks with Daze and Spell Pierce. I do like to keep one Breakthrough in if I can. As a general rule, try not to over sideboard with Dredge. All of our cards are a vital piece of the game plan, which explains your initial confusion. This becomes much easier, when you know what gy-hate each deck is likely to have, and above all else PRACTICE. This deck is harder to play than many give it credit for, especially in todays meta.

[Vlad Teppes]

Playing quadlazer?
most of the time you're going to do something like this:

-1/2 Ichorid, -4 LED, -2/3 Breakthrough.
+1/2 Tarnished Citadel, + 4 anti hate of choice (if running any), + 2/3 DR package, Firestorm or Disruption or Aditional anti hate (ancient grudge/Pithing needle/ray or revelation)

Try not to SB too much unless absolutely necessary, Dredge is a combo deck, and you are taking out combo pieces to manuever trough their hate, so you are going to get slaughtered if you are not fast enough to assemble your combo.

Your opponent is likely to get slower too, as he's taking out 2 or even 6 cards of his deck (it happened to me one day) but most of the time, you suffer more out of this.

[Vlad Teppes]

Sry for the double post, but I find it hilarious, when I go to MWS to give my dredge deck a spin, people get annoyed XD
Nobody likes to play against dredge, ppl quit when you cast your first careful study to bin a GGT, while I find this funny, it's real hard to test anything online!

[DarkJester]

Sry for the double post, but I find it hilarious, when I go to MWS to give my dredge deck a spin, people get annoyed XD
Nobody likes to play against dredge, ppl quit when you cast your first careful study to bin a GGT, while I find this funny, it's real hard to test anything online!

It's the price for your power! :laugh:

[Vlad Teppes]

ppl in online games keep crying about what strategy you use.
they don't like to face ANY variation of combo, they use caps lock TIER 1 DECKS ONLY! and then quit when you go using burn or infect ( the decks I own)
so i'm down to using my crippled Jund deck (I sold some cards -_-)
Why do they play? do they ever go into real tournments where they have to be prepared to face anything?
This happened today, he said he wanted to face aggro decks, so I swaped my dredge to burn, after a chain lighting and a Lava spike he said that:

<Derp!> idiot i sad aggro not burn
<Derp!> Bye bye stupid noob
<System> Player Lost
<Vlad> but burn is aggro, bro
<Vlad> wtf?!

I know shouldn't expect much for someone nicknamed Derp! at 4 AM but this is just ridiculous

[Basedx]

Hey guys. Im actually really confused about how we actually side post board. I don't exactly know what to take out against most matchups. This is my list and board, if you guys could give me some advice. I also saw a daily a couple of days on MTGO where a 4-0 Dredge player had a stoneforge package in his side..what matchup is this for and is it really that viable?

1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Griselbrand
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
4 Putrid Imp
2 Careful Study

SB: 3 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 4 Firestorm
SB: 1 Ashen Rider
SB: 1 Wispmare
SB: 2 Ingot Chewer
SB: 2 Nature's Claim
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

[JPoJohnson]

People drop gravehate and get potentially blown out by aggro instead. I personally prefer the painter's servant sideboard instead.

[joemauer]

Here is the list I have settled on for now.

Maindeck:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
4 Street Wraith
2 Gitaxian Probe
3 Firestorm
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below

Sideboard:
3 Dread Return
2 Grizzlebrand
1 Flayer
2 Ignot Chewer
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Nature's Claim
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise

A few thoughts about it.

I never missed Putrid Imp. Firestorm is an upgrade in the current meta. Street Wraiths feed the Ichorids fine.

11 dredgers works in the list since there is no Breakthrough for chain dredging.

We want 7 anti-Shaman cards in our maindeck. The cards show up enough to be relevant against that guy.

With the lack of Breakthrough the deck is slightly less explosive making some combo matchups tougher, like the mirror, but the deck has become stronger versus decks with Force of Will and/or Wasteland due to the free draws(probe and wraith) and the uncounterable cards(wraith and firestorm).

The sideboard is designed to do one of two things:
1) Slow down and fight hate with some combination of Claims/Ignots/Ancient Grudge/Lands depending on the matchup and what is sided against you.
2) Speed up versus the combo matchups with the dread return package.

I am still testing the deck, but I believe I have borrowed enough of the strengths of manaless while not compromising the speed and power of dredge.

[Final Fortune]

Gitaxian Probe seems worse than Breakthrough and 4 Ichorid is 1 Ichorid too many, I'd try the 9th gold land MD

[joemauer]

Gitaxian Probe seems worse than Breakthrough and 4 Ichorid is 1 Ichorid too many, I'd try the 9th gold land MD

I want to max out on Ichorids because they are good against Miracles and Deathrite Shaman.

9th gold land is unnecessary in this build. 12 lands worked fine in Quadlazer and my deck has 6 free draw spells making the low land count even more doable.

I suppose the two Probes could be Breakthroughs though. They each have their own perks.

[Final Fortune]

I want to max out on Ichorids because they are good against Miracles and Deathrite Shaman.

9th gold land is unnecessary in this build. 12 lands worked fine in Quadlazer and my deck has 6 free draw spells making the low land count even more doable.

I suppose the two Probes could be Breakthroughs though. They each have their own perks.

Saying 12 lands in Quadlazer worked fine is like saying Impulse worked fine in Keeper, the reason that deck got away with its mana base was because we used to be able to win games without casting spells in a format pre-Deathrite Shaman and even then we had to SB 3 lands in order to SB out Lion's Eye Diamond vs Tormod's Crypt.

I don't think Gitaxian Probe being a free spell actually offsets the number of lands in your deck because casting blue spells was never the problem, if you want to consistently cast Firestorm and Cabal Therapy then you need gold lands. And don't forget you need 2 lands to activate Cephalid Coliseum, counter Daze, offset Wasteland and cast Narcomoeba and Golgari Thug.

It's ugly, but I think I'd play 4 City of Brass, 4 Gemstone Mine, 2 Tarnished Citadel and 3 Cephalid Coliseum if I cut Breakthrough because U mana is less important.

Also there's a fair argument we should just SB Firestorm and Street Wraith for Deathrite Shaman.dec, Dread Return and Nether Shadow are just unnecessary and Duress handles Surgical Extraction and Rest in Peace just fine. Putrid Imp is still viable as long as you win the coin flip, which makes me want to try and salvage it with Lotus Petal more than cutting it but IDK.

Why do all of you guys still SB Nature's Claim? If Rest and Peace resolves you lose anyway.

[HammafistRoob]

Because Rest in Peace isn't the only hate card that gets played.

[Juicy Karaage]

Why do all of you guys still SB Nature's Claim? If Rest and Peace resolves you lose anyway.

Because i don't combo off as soon as possible when i suspect a Rest In Piece in their hands

[Final Fortune]

Because Rest in Peace isn't the only hate card that gets played.

So that's like the 1xGrafdigger's Cage you lose to on the draw or do people play Nihil Spellbomb instead of Surgical Extraction in BUG and Jund? I usually find discard is more effective but to each their own I guess.

[joemauer]

Saying 12 lands in Quadlazer worked fine is like saying Impulse worked fine in Keeper, the reason that deck got away with its mana base was because we used to be able to win games without casting spells in a format pre-Deathrite Shaman and even then we had to SB 3 lands in order to SB out Lion's Eye Diamond vs Tormod's Crypt.

I don't think Gitaxian Probe being a free spell actually offsets the number of lands in your deck because casting blue spells was never the problem, if you want to consistently cast Firestorm and Cabal Therapy then you need gold lands. And don't forget you need 2 lands to activate Cephalid Coliseum, counter Daze, offset Wasteland and cast Narcomoeba and Golgari Thug.

It's ugly, but I think I'd play 4 City of Brass, 4 Gemstone Mine, 2 Tarnished Citadel and 3 Cephalid Coliseum if I cut Breakthrough because U mana is less important.

Also there's a fair argument we should just SB Firestorm and Street Wraith for Deathrite Shaman.dec, Dread Return and Nether Shadow are just unnecessary and Duress handles Surgical Extraction and Rest in Peace just fine. Putrid Imp is still viable as long as you win the coin flip, which makes me want to try and salvage it with Lotus Petal more than cutting it but IDK.

Why do all of you guys still SB Nature's Claim? If Rest and Peace resolves you lose anyway.

12 lands in Quadlazer worked fine. It was able to play around daze and activate Cephalid land fine. My deck has one less non blue card that it wants to hard cast game 1 rather than traditional Quadlazer, 3 firestorm vs 4 Pimp. The free spells(Wraiths, Probes) can cycle for lands if need be or just draw cards and ignore not having a land.

The two Probes may be better as two Breakthroughs, definitely a flex spot there.

Daze is less of a worry for me with Firestorm+Street Wraith. It makes the deck function like manaless without the weaknesses of manaless dredge. Firestorm has been amazing in my testing.

Nature's Claim is still required, I feel. Enlighten Tutor commonly grabs Rest in Peace making discard irrevelant. And lots of decks play some combination of Cages/RiPs. We don't lose to a resolved RiP, this isn't manaless dredge.

Finally, I play a Dread Return package in my sb to speed the deck up versus other fast combo not to fight surgical extraction. Surgical Extraction is such a rarity and very easy to play through without help from the sideboard. Snapcaster+Surgical isn't a thing anymore(ironically because of Deathrite Shaman) and isn't something of concern right now.

[ottofromorbit]

Brainstorm

Pros:
I love 1cc
I love when my opponent looks like o.O when I cast it
I love digging for goodies and anti-hate, 11 cards deep on turn 1
I love hiding key cards in response to hand disruption
I love "top decking" (narcos dredgers and DR targets out of my hand)
I love dredging 3 times (coliseum)
I love announcing "I maintain priority *as I then go all in and crack LED"
I love beating somebody using their favorite card/strategy
I love stalling until I can go off when the coast is clear
I love 4 x Putrid Imps in my main deck.

And I think Lotus petal has now made the maindeck cut aswell.

Cons:
No discarding directly to grave
My dredge friends will tease me
A teary goodbye to careful study

[Parcher]

Brainstorm
I love digging for goodies and anti-hate, 11 cards deep on turn 1

This is one of the major problems with Brainstorm. You're familiar with the term, "Brainstorm-Lock"? Dredge is a deck that can't deal with that. So if you are unable to find your anti-hate in the first three, you essentially have double-timewalked yourself. And considering that you either couldn't discard due to the nature of Brainstorm, and/or don't have the anti-hate to freely use your graveyard, you probably don't have the option to Dredge the chaff away. Against decks with hard hate, like RIP, this is effectively a death sentence.

Study/Looting aren't much better in that case, since you permanently lose the cards you pitch to them, and they only dig twice. But your remaining draws stay live. And if your opponent doesn't have the hate, you are left in a much better position, since you have at least started your graveyard. You can't even use it well against Deathrite, since you'll either have to go to your discard, which will allow him to get active(assuming you won game one), or you give the opponent the oppoertunity to stop you by countering either of your spells. That is to say, if they counter the discard, the Brainstorm dredges nothing. If they counter the Brainstorm, Deathrite becomes live again. Passing on turn one, and waiting to Brainstorm is is equally as bad, since you usually won't have the extra mana to cast multiple spells in one turn. And it opens you up a little more to Wasteland.

[ottofromorbit]

Maybe looking a little like this
Could go careful study in main instead of breakthrough for controlled" dredging.
Side board is just basic "ass coverage" vs tokens weenies monsters and artifact/enchants
I'm hoping to rip hate and permission apart early w therapy.

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass

3 Ichorid
3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba

3 Lotus Petal
3 Breakthrough
4 Brainstorm
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
26 other spells

Sideboard
4 Nature's Claim
4 Firestorm
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Dread Return

[ottofromorbit]

This is one of the major problems with Brainstorm. You're familiar with the term, "Brainstorm-Lock"? Dredge is a deck that can't deal with that. So if you are unable to find your anti-hate in the first three, you essentially have double-timewalked yourself. And considering that you either couldn't discard due to the nature of Brainstorm, and/or don't have the anti-hate to freely use your graveyard, you probably don't have the option to Dredge the chaff away. Against decks with hard hate, like RIP, this is effectively a death sentence.

Study/Looting aren't much better in that case, since you permanently lose the cards you pitch to them, and they only dig twice. But your remaining draws stay live. And if your opponent doesn't have the hate, you are left in a much better position, since you have at least started your graveyard. You can't even use it well against Deathrite, since you'll either have to go to your discard, which will allow him to get active(assuming you won game one), or you give the opponent the oppoertunity to stop you by countering either of your spells. That is to say, if they counter the discard, the Brainstorm dredges nothing. If they counter the Brainstorm, Deathrite becomes live again. Passing on turn one, and waiting to Brainstorm is is equally as bad, since you usually won't have the extra mana to cast multiple spells in one turn. And it opens you up a little more to Wasteland.

We should be clocking like manaless dredge, belcher and TES types. We don't have time to waste in the current meta. Losing consistency with 3-4 more mana with lotus petal seemed like the boost we'd need.
What else can we do to this deck to keep it competetive and not so conditional.
Speed.
Must be faster
Must be faster
It's risk vs reward and it's true brainstorm is probly a better turn 2-3 card right before the big finish.
Still playing it but the meta same
We're facing a lot of hate
That's dredge

[TableTopMagic]

We got a new friend. :)

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/jou/aasd7y23m34co/E9QU2r9nIn_EN.jpg

[Final Fortune]

RIP Tarnished Citadel, are 5+ City of Brass better than Gemstone Mines?

[Vlad Teppes]

I was about to post that sweet new dredge and TES stapple!
Let's just hope it doesn't hurt our pockets too much!

R.I.P tarnished citadel It was good while it lasted!

[indefinite.soul]

RIP Tarnished Citadel, are 5+ City of Brass better than Gemstone Mines?

Tarnished Citadel are gone. OK.

But I don't think Gemstone Mines are also gone. The ones who use 12 lands should keep them.

Our late discussions are on how to boost the deck's explosiveness. Why take damage when you intend to finish the game before GM goes to grave? Times are gone since we had tireless tribe in our sideboard / we wanted to be able to AG and BT the same turn.

IMO Mines are better than City theses days. So they are also better than Mana Confluence, since they are the same card (well, actually the late one is better, no damage from R. Port).

[Alessar]

We got a new friend. :)

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/jou/aasd7y23m34co/E9QU2r9nIn_EN.jpg


Ok, so now "8x "City of Brass" ".

Very well! RIP T. Citadel we won't miss you:cool:

[JPoJohnson]

So I know up until 2013 there were quite a few lists that would run Bloodghast, but recently it has not been nearly as popular as it use to be. I was wondering if anyone would be willing to clarify why this would be?

I see Ichorid being just as fragile or playable as it, but being a bit easier to get into play on a regular basis as well as having an easy sac outlet. Is that the only reason?

[joemauer]

So I know up until 2013 there were quite a few lists that would run Bloodghast, but recently it has not been nearly as popular as it use to be. I was wondering if anyone would be willing to clarify why this would be?

I see Ichorid being just as fragile or playable as it, but being a bit easier to get into play on a regular basis as well as having an easy sac outlet. Is that the only reason?

LEDless used to be more common than LED dredge. When LED dredge became the norm then the land count went down making Bloodghast less played. Also, it is tough to sandbag lands in hand when using LED.

[easysantiago]

we got a new friend. :)

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/jou/aasd7y23m34co/e9qu2r9nin_en.jpg

yes!

[jimmythegreek]

12 lands in Quadlazer worked fine. It was able to play around daze and activate Cephalid land fine. My deck has one less non blue card that it wants to hard cast game 1 rather than traditional Quadlazer, 3 firestorm vs 4 Pimp. The free spells(Wraiths, Probes) can cycle for lands if need be or just draw cards and ignore not having a land.

The two Probes may be better as two Breakthroughs, definitely a flex spot there.

Daze is less of a worry for me with Firestorm+Street Wraith. It makes the deck function like manaless without the weaknesses of manaless dredge. Firestorm has been amazing in my testing.

Nature's Claim is still required, I feel. Enlighten Tutor commonly grabs Rest in Peace making discard irrevelant. And lots of decks play some combination of Cages/RiPs. We don't lose to a resolved RiP, this isn't manaless dredge.

Finally, I play a Dread Return package in my sb to speed the deck up versus other fast combo not to fight surgical extraction. Surgical Extraction is such a rarity and very easy to play through without help from the sideboard. Snapcaster+Surgical isn't a thing anymore(ironically because of Deathrite Shaman) and isn't something of concern right now.

I would argue that the manaless blue version of dredge is much more resilient to rip than led dredge.....care to elaborate?

[joemauer]

I would argue that the manaless blue version of dredge is much more resilient to rip than led dredge.....care to elaborate?

In a situation where RiP is resolved(against either version of dredge) then of course manaless would get hurt the most.

Manaless is dependent on its opening hand. It really shouldn't mulligan to anti-hate. If you don't have Force of Will or Shoal in your opener then fighting RiP becomes very tough. LED dredge can mulligan or dig for answers with Studies and Faithless Looting.

There are a lot of corner cases where counter magic in hand won't save a manaless dredge player. Like Thalia into Rest in Peace or Rest in Peace with Force and/or Daze backup. Manaless player would need x2 counterspell + x2 blue cards in their opening 7+1. Someone better with stats can tell us the exact odds of having those four cards in your opener.

Also, LED dredge can still cast their creatures when a RiP resolves. Some players will keep worthless hands with Rest in Peaces in it. Going aggro with Narcomoebas and Stinkweed Imps is actually a viable path to victory.

[jimmythegreek]

In a situation where RiP is resolved(against either version of dredge) then of course manaless would get hurt the most.

Manaless is dependent on its opening hand. It really shouldn't mulligan to anti-hate. If you don't have Force of Will or Shoal in your opener then fighting RiP becomes very tough. LED dredge can mulligan or dig for answers with Studies and Faithless Looting.

There are a lot of corner cases where counter magic in hand won't save a manaless dredge player. Like Thalia into Rest in Peace or Rest in Peace with Force and/or Daze backup. Manaless player would need x2 counterspell + x2 blue cards in their opening 7+1. Someone better with stats can tell us the exact odds of having those four cards in your opener.

Also, LED dredge can still cast their creatures when a RiP resolves. Some players will keep worthless hands with Rest in Peaces in it. Going aggro with Narcomoebas and Stinkweed Imps is actually a viable path to victory.

Reading is fundamental...... missed the "resolved" part. I agree with most everthing you said here. Even with led dredge a resolved rip can easily spell disaster. As I can see it without another draw spell in hand you may be too low on gas to recover. Im on manaless right now and the main deck forces have been great. The ability to be proactive to rip keeps me ahead instead of reactive once the ability resolves...maybe this could work in led dredge, not sure though. My apologies if this topic has been discussed to death.

[easysantiago]

Reading is fundamental...... missed the "resolved" part. I agree with most everthing you said here. Even with led dredge a resolved rip can easily spell disaster. As I can see it without another draw spell in hand you may be too low on gas to recover. Im on manaless right now and the main deck forces have been great. The ability to be proactive to rip keeps me ahead instead of reactive once the ability resolves...maybe this could work in led dredge, not sure though. My apologies if this topic has been discussed to death.

Could you link me to your deck list? As a manaless player myself, I am always interested in what others are running.

[jimmythegreek]

Could you link me to your deck list? As a manaless player myself, I am always interested in what others are running.

There's a manaless dredge forum with all the proactive decklists featuring force of will. I will post my list there on the manaless forum, thats probably the right place rather than here.

[DarkJester]

Most players play their Rip as soon as possible because they are afraid of therapies, so hardcasting stuff and waiting for the perfect moment to go off is a valid option, more so against Miracles because of the non-existing clock.

[easysantiago]

There's a manaless dredge forum with all the proactive decklists featuring force of will. I will post my list there on the manaless forum, thats probably the right place rather than here.

Sounds good!

[drude1]

So I know up until 2013 there were quite a few lists that would run Bloodghast, but recently it has not been nearly as popular as it use to be. I was wondering if anyone would be willing to clarify why this would be?

I see Ichorid being just as fragile or playable as it, but being a bit easier to get into play on a regular basis as well as having an easy sac outlet. Is that the only reason?

Bloodghast were used more to play a combo heavy version of the deck. They are a turn faster to use in conjunction with undiscovered paradise. These days most people are less about combo and more about grinding games out. Ichorids can reliably swing in for 3 every turn and trigger zombies on their way out every turn.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Que]

Hi all,

Just got top 4 at Knightware in Studio City. There were a total of 66 players with a prize pay out to top 10. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27740-Los-Angeles-CA-Knight-Ware-Sunday-04-13-2014-20-25-dual-fetch-staple-for-prizes

Brief note. It was a complete meta game call to bring street wraiths and leave Breakthroughs at home. I did not miss Breakthrough at all and Streeth Wraith allowed for some broken chain dredging. The fact that its uncounterable is what makes it cream. Its a page taken from manaless dredge yes, but it had been a thing once before. I just wanted to be able to have additional gas without the requirement of mana. Sometimes you get wasted, walk into daze, get pierced, get fow'd etc..This just gives a big middle finger to all of that and allows you to cruise once again.

My rounds went as followed:

Round 1: William Kang with D & T
Match Score: 1-0
Round 2: Nathan Situ with U/W/R Delver
Match Score: 2-0
Round 3: Daniel R. with Jund Lands
Match Score: 3-0
Round 4: Vidianto Wijaya with U/W/R Delver
Match Score: 3-1
Round 5: Stephen Gee with Shardless BUG
Match Score: 3-2
Round 6: ??? with MUD Welder
Match Score: 4-2
Round 7: Danny Batterman with Nic Fit/Food Chain
Match Score: 5-2

At the end of round 6 I was in 9th place, however, my breakers were solid as I had only lost to the 1st (Vidi) & 2nd seed (Stephen G).
Round 7 had me paired against Danny with Food Chain Pod. I won game one in the face of a turn 1 Deahtrite Shaman into a turn 2 Scavenging Ooze with a green up. I was able to accomplish this by fizzling the Ooze's ability with a well timed Street Wraith Cycle. It also helped that I had a 2nd one in my opener. I recurred 3 Ichorids and flooded the board with multiple zombies which left me with enough power on board to close the game out. Game 2 he FOW'd my Faithless looting and then Cabal Therapie'd away the careful study I had in my hand. I still had 1 more outlet in the form of Faithless looting and at this point his hand was pretty bare as it no longer had any meaningful interaction. Eventually the game rolls out in my favor. The win cemented my placement into the top 8 being seded 7th.

Top 8:

Round 8: Stephen Gee with Shardless BUG
2-0

The way the brackets worked out I would get to play Stephen once again. This time I was able to pull out the win and secure a spot in the top 4. Ultimately we ended up splitting the fetches. I took home a Flooded Strand and a Scalding Tarn for my troubles. :)

EDIT: I'm still a proponent of Quadlazer. Although its nice having that Dread Return sometimes as it allows you to amass a zombie army before a cage or RIP comes down assuming they don't drop it turn 2.

[JPoJohnson]

Hi all,

Just got top 4 at Knightware in Studio City. There were a total of 66 players with a prize pay out to top 10. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27740-Los-Angeles-CA-Knight-Ware-Sunday-04-13-2014-20-25-dual-fetch-staple-for-prizes

Brief note. It was a complete meta game call to bring street wraiths and leave Breakthroughs at home. I did not miss Breakthrough at all and Streeth Wraith allowed for some broken chain dredging. The fact that its uncounterable is what makes it cream. Its a page taken from manaless dredge yes, but it had been a thing once before. I just wanted to be able to have additional gas without the requirement of mana. Sometimes you get wasted, walk into daze, get pierced, get fow'd etc..This just gives a big middle finger to all of that and allows you to cruise once again.

My rounds went as followed:

Round 1: William Kang with D & T
Match Score: 1-0
Round 2: Nathan Situ with U/W/R Delver
Match Score: 2-0
Round 3: Daniel R. with Jund Lands
Match Score: 3-0
Round 4: Vidianto Wijaya with U/W/R Delver
Match Score: 3-1
Round 5: Stephen Gee with Shardless BUG
Match Score: 3-2
Round 6: ??? with MUD Welder
Match Score: 4-2
Round 7: Danny Batterman with Nic Fit/Food Chain
Match Score: 5-2

At the end of round 6 I was in 9th place, however, my breakers were solid as I had only lost to the 1st (Vidi) & 2nd seed (Stephen G).
Round 7 had me paired against Danny with Food Chain Pod. I won game one in the face of a turn 1 Deahtrite Shaman into a turn 2 Scavenging Ooze with a green up. I was able to accomplish this by fizzling the Ooze's ability with a well timed Street Wraith Cycle. It also helped that I had a 2nd one in my opener. I recurred 3 Ichorids and flooded the board with multiple zombies which left me with enough power on board to close the game out. Game 2 he FOW'd my Faithless looting and then Cabal Therapie'd away the careful study I had in my hand. I still had 1 more outlet in the form of Faithless looting and at this point his hand was pretty bare as it no longer had any meaningful interaction. Eventually the game rolls out in my favor. The win cemented my placement into the top 8 being seded 7th.

Top 8:

Round 8: Stephen Gee with Shardless BUG
2-0

The way the brackets worked out I would get to play Stephen once again. This time I was able to pull out the win and secure a spot in the top 4. Ultimately we ended up splitting the fetches. I took home a Flooded Strand and a Scalding Tarn for my troubles. :)

EDIT: I'm still a proponent of Quadlazer. Although its nice having that Dread Return sometimes as it allows you to amass a zombie army before a cage or RIP comes down assuming they don't drop it turn 2.

I dropped breakthrough for wraiths a while ago and enjoyed it personally. Glad someone else enjoyed it and had some success with it (:

[TableTopMagic]

Oh bla...
Does anyone have any good list for Turn one Dredge?

[JPoJohnson]

Oh bla...
Does anyone have any good list for Turn one Dredge?

Just to clarify: You're asking for a list that maximizes the consistency of a T1 win/all-in combo?

[TableTopMagic]

Just to clarify: You're asking for a list that maximizes the consistency of a T1 win/all-in combo?

Ya, pretty much. I mostly play Manaless or Quadlazer. Just I want to test with a fast turn one list for if the meta switchs to fast combo. Just looking for good lists to start with. Make sure my head is in the right direction if a meta shift does happen.

[Que]

Ya, pretty much. I mostly play Manaless or Quadlazer. Just I want to test with a fast turn one list for if the meta switchs to fast combo. Just looking for good lists to start with. Make sure my head is in the right direction if a meta shift does happen.

Imo the only time I really want a flamekin Zealot or Flayer of the Hatebound kill is against something like lands where they can tutor up Tabernacle on their turn after you've made a horde of zombies and basically blow you out. From there they just need something like Maze of Ith (you most likely will only have a couple of lands to pay for a couple of zombies) or even Glacial Chasm to stop you.

I think the Quadlazer list is fine against "fast combo". You're essentially "going off" by mind twisting their hand away and stopping them from doing anything relevant. This is where having a knowledge of the matchup becomes key in knowing what to name against those other combo decks and maximizing the efficiency of Therapy. By having the Turn 1 Dredge version you're sacrificing consistency by loading your deck with multiple Dread Returns and creatures (flamekin, flayer) that essentially do nothing unless they're in the graveyard. While storm decks are generally a turn faster you can always shore up the matchup via your sb. You can still have a DR package there bringing in things like Iona, Shield of Emeria against Storm variants, Elesh Norn against the mirror and Elves if you wish, Mindbreak Trap against Belcher and the aforementioned Storm Decks, etc..

Thats my experience anyway.

[KobeBryan]

Imo the only time I really want a flamekin Zealot or Flayer of the Hatebound kill is against something like lands where they can tutor up Tabernacle on their turn after you've made a horde of zombies and basically blow you out. From there they just need something like Maze of Ith (you most likely will only have a couple of lands to pay for a couple of zombies) or even Glacial Chasm to stop you.

I think the Quadlazer list is fine against "fast combo". You're essentially "going off" by mind twisting their hand away and stopping them from doing anything relevant. This is where having a knowledge of the matchup becomes key in knowing what to name against those other combo decks and maximizing the efficiency of Therapy. By having the Turn 1 Dredge version you're sacrificing consistency by loading your deck with multiple Dread Returns and creatures (flamekin, flayer) that essentially do nothing unless they're in the graveyard. While storm decks are generally a turn faster you can always shore up the matchup via your sb. You can still have a DR package there bringing in things like Iona, Shield of Emeria against Storm variants, Elesh Norn against the mirror and Elves if you wish, Mindbreak Trap against Belcher and the aforementioned Storm Decks, etc..

Thats my experience anyway.

Joseph ur a pretty good dredge player...mind twisting people's hands away isn't as easy as you make it sound man.

[Que]

Joseph ur a pretty good dredge player...mind twisting people's hands away isn't as easy as you make it sound man.

Cabal Therapy is my favorite card mein. I'm biased. :P I think one of the strengths of the deck is pulling insane value from that card. Thats why knowing which cards can adversely hurt you is really important. Once you get your engine online there are really only a handful of cards you'd really care about.

[Arksz]

Howdy Everyone!

I am trying to get a Legacy Scene going at my LGS and and trying to build up a few decks I can lend to people. I currently play Elves and Miracles, have most of the cards for non green delver lists. I was very interested in Dredge since it works on a totally different axis than the typical deck.

My main question is can I build the deck without LEDs?
I took a look at the Manaless version and it doesn't seem as interesting or fun. I understand it wouldn't be as explosive, but would it still be competitive? Could someone point me towards a list?

[jimmythegreek]

Howdy Everyone!

I am trying to get a Legacy Scene going at my LGS and and trying to build up a few decks I can lend to people. I currently play Elves and Miracles, have most of the cards for non green delver lists. I was very interested in Dredge since it works on a totally different axis than the typical deck.

My main question is can I build the deck without LEDs?
I took a look at the Manaless version and it doesn't seem as interesting or fun. I understand it wouldn't be as explosive, but would it still be competitive? Could someone point me towards a list?

First off....manaless is my favorite and in my opinion most consistent version of dredge. I have seen alot of lists that dont use leds and instead use tireless tribes in their place. I used to play led dredge but it didnt fit my play style. Leds are very all in and im a little more conservative, so yes you can play dredge without leds.....competitively. Regardless, keep dredging!

[JPoJohnson]

Howdy Everyone!

I am trying to get a Legacy Scene going at my LGS and and trying to build up a few decks I can lend to people. I currently play Elves and Miracles, have most of the cards for non green delver lists. I was very interested in Dredge since it works on a totally different axis than the typical deck.

My main question is can I build the deck without LEDs?
I took a look at the Manaless version and it doesn't seem as interesting or fun. I understand it wouldn't be as explosive, but would it still be competitive? Could someone point me towards a list?

There are two viable versions of dredge:
1. LED Dredge
2. Manaless Dredge

Do yes elf a favor and don't play LEDless dredge.

[Final Fortune]

There are two viable versions of dredge:
1. LED Dredge
2. Manaless Dredge

Do yes elf a favor and don't play LEDless dredge.

LEDless Dredge is absolutely fine or at least competitive as long as the meta doesn't require you to race other combo decks, it's objectively better vs any aggro-control deck with Deathrite Shaman.

[JPoJohnson]

LEDless Dredge is absolutely fine or at least competitive as long as the meta doesn't require you to race other combo decks, it's objectively better vs any aggro-control deck with Deathrite Shaman.

I would say Manaless Dredge is more viable than LEDless so since the costs are quite similar, I'm not sure why you would choose to run LEDless unless you just disliked the playstyle of Manaless.

[Michael Keller]

I would say Manaless Dredge is more viable than LEDless so since the costs are quite similar, I'm not sure why you would choose to run LEDless unless you just disliked the playstyle of Manaless.

Oh boy.

This is a matter of opinion and has a lot of variables associated with it. One may be more viable than another in a given meta.

[JPoJohnson]

Oh boy.

This is a matter of opinion and has a lot of variables associated with it. One may be more viable than another in a given meta.

Honestly curious:
What meta would you play LEDless over mana less or LED?

[Michael Keller]

Metas where Cage and RiP are less prevalent. Even assuming they are, you have options out of the board.

[GoblinZ]

Honestly curious:
What meta would you play LEDless over mana less or LED?

And I think LEDless dredge is less vulnerable to spell pierce or flusterstorm than LED Dredge is

[Arksz]

Thanks for all the replies everyone! Hope I didn't start something haha.

I took another look at the Manaless list. I was also more interested in the LED/Less version since it seems to not completely fold to RIP and get time walked by discard.
But it seems the list have lots of cards that crossover. I guess I could pick them up and down the line maybe get some LEDs.

[Final Fortune]

I would say Manaless Dredge is more viable than LEDless so since the costs are quite similar, I'm not sure why you would choose to run LEDless unless you just disliked the playstyle of Manaless.

Not every one wants to play Manaless Dredge because even tho' it's a good deck it's not a deck that really allows you to leverage your play skill over your opponent, I'd play LEDless Dredge in any meta game where both Deathrite Shaman and Rest in Peace were prevalent which is ironically the case right now because I see UBWg Blade decks every where. I can't say it would be the best choice, but it's definitely better at dealing with varied kinds of hate because it has SB answers and it's certainly viable at the very least. I think it might also technically be better in any meta defined by aggro like Elves or Affinity.

[ottofromorbit]

Ya guys, same old debate. Personally I love the LEDs in the dredge. I started out ledless and would never go back. Just get a set now before they get even more pricey. If you're reading this you're a combo player. They're staples in TES ANT Belcher, all spells... You'll be playing with them forever!
So T1 combo out to win you'll prolly need LED, Breakthrough, dredger (imp/troll preferred) in hand at very least. Then pray that our opponent doesn't interrupt with a counter. You need to call red off the "led crack" then hit, 1 DR, FKZ at least 2 Bridges and god help you, Looting. I'm a gambling man so I go all inand call bluff when ever I can. I've pulled it off many times where I chained into looting and win. Its playing odds..I always hope that DR resolves I rip their hand apart with therapies and finish with zombie horde. Can't be done without LEDs.
The other way to secure a win is a heavy disruption hand turns 1-2.
Quadlazer consistency will win you G1. With the meta now I've been trying the streetwraith/unmask board list.
It stops other combo and pretty much every thing else. If we wreck their kept hand early enough we can coast to the win not worrying about them going off before us. Doing this off a mull to 6-5 cards is dissapointing. This deck is fragile but ive read somewhere "luck is a byproduct of design and practice is the mother of skill. Combined this makes dredge win.
Keep posting reports and ideas fellas! I study the game but may not have the "experience" with certain archetypes. Please share.

[GoblinZ]

A LED dredge player is on the SCG stream. It seems that he does not know he can crack his coliseum in response to ichorid's trigger on the stack.

[DarkJester]

A LED dredge player is on the SCG stream. It seems that he does not know he can crack his coliseum in response to ichorid's trigger on the stack.

There were several misplays. He should have beaten the Esper-Deathblade-Guy with ease. Therapy is your best friend and should be used with a little bit of thinking. Maybe he undervalued an opposing Brainstorm and overvalued a True-Name Nemesis ^^

[ottofromorbit]

A LED dredge player is on the SCG stream. It seems that he does not know he can crack his coliseum in response to ichorid's trigger on the stack.

huh?
so pass turn ,,untap, crack coliseum and dredge a shit ton of cards, then upkeep the ichorid triggers, then dredge again for draw .......
this guy missed this?... dayum. learning to sneak in triggers within the untap phase is tricky when under pressure
I've tapped opponents mana with Mana helix on their untap steps before. this was infuriating for the opponent. played elves with thermokharst and winters grasp.. id win with overrun...very long time ago but fun.

[joemauer]

huh?
so pass turn ,,untap, crack coliseum and dredge a shit ton of cards, then upkeep the ichorid triggers, then dredge again for draw .......
this guy missed this?... dayum. learning to sneak in triggers within the untap phase is tricky when under pressure
I've tapped opponents mana with Mana helix on their untap steps before. this was infuriating for the opponent. played elves with thermokharst and winters grasp.. id win with overrun...very long time ago but fun.

Ichorid trigger(s) go the stack even with no other black creatures in graveyard. You can crack Coliseum while Ichorid has trigger(s) on stack, dredge bunches then remove whatever creature(s) you want( even if they weren't there at beginning of turn) and have Ichorid come into play. Ichorid triggers go on the stack right after you untap.

[ottofromorbit]

Ichorid trigger(s) go the stack even with no other black creatures in graveyard. You can crack Coliseum while Ichorid has trigger(s) on stack, dredge bunches then remove whatever creature(s) you want( even if they weren't there at beginning of turn) and have Ichorid come into play. Ichorid triggers go on the stack right after you untap.

Ah,,,K. During the upkeep triggers stacking. For sure. Make use of those opportunities. Games are won and lost here.
Rarely someone has the patience to wait. It's pro!

[JPettie]

Ichorid trigger(s) go the stack even with no other black creatures in graveyard. You can crack Coliseum while Ichorid has trigger(s) on stack, dredge bunches then remove whatever creature(s) you want( even if they weren't there at beginning of turn) and have Ichorid come into play. Ichorid triggers go on the stack right after you untap.

This is something learned the hard way, and coming from a long time closet Dredge player and Vintage Dredge player, it is easier to understand how to stack triggers when you are taught early on that you should be using Bazaar in response to Ichorid Triggers on the stack. On a lighter note, I've been messing around with a list as of late for Legacy that runs both Bloodghast and Ichorid along with Narco to gain easier dredge returns to hopefully turn 2/3 every game. Bloodghast seems to be put aside because of LED running less lands but the obvious counter-part to that argument is that Dakmor Salvage exists and you can easily run 2-3 and sequence spells/triggers correctly in order to "guarantee" Bloodghast triggers. Maybe the reason I want to go this route in Legacy is because of my Vintage style of play and understanding that the extra four dread return enablers are really useful in fighting off hate and being a faster/more consistent deck. Another thing I noticed watching the coverage (which made me cringe, I really dislike missing triggers and piloting dredge incorrectly) was the lack of cabal before dread returning when it was easily achievable. Even blind Therapies are better than dread returning blindly.

[Holynorth]

This is something learned the hard way, and coming from a long time closet Dredge player and Vintage Dredge player, it is easier to understand how to stack triggers when you are taught early on that you should be using Bazaar in response to Ichorid Triggers on the stack. On a lighter note, I've been messing around with a list as of late for Legacy that runs both Bloodghast and Ichorid along with Narco to gain easier dredge returns to hopefully turn 2/3 every game. Bloodghast seems to be put aside because of LED running less lands but the obvious counter-part to that argument is that Dakmor Salvage exists and you can easily run 2-3 and sequence spells/triggers correctly in order to "guarantee" Bloodghast triggers. Maybe the reason I want to go this route in Legacy is because of my Vintage style of play and understanding that the extra four dread return enablers are really useful in fighting off hate and being a faster/more consistent deck. Another thing I noticed watching the coverage (which made me cringe, I really dislike missing triggers and piloting dredge incorrectly) was the lack of cabal before dread returning when it was easily achievable. Even blind Therapies are better than dread returning blindly.

His games had many misplays. Not attacking before sac'ing to dread return/cabal therapy, poor choices for his cabal therapy, not protecting his dread returns, etc.

However, after watching the manaless earlier in the tournament, I'm glad to be playing LED Dredge.

[Timber]

I realize that he's too slow, can't be cast off LED and will just get FoW'd, but a Faithless Looting every turn is pretty sweet.

http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/dack-fayden/

[DarkJester]

I realize that he's too slow, can't be cast off LED and will just get FoW'd, but a Faithless Looting every turn is pretty sweet.

http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/dack-fayden/

You already mentioned all the points which speak clearly against him (but I like Dack very much, which is the reason for my IDW-Lootings :cool: ). He would require a completely other shell to work, which means a different deck. Maybe he could be something for my Modern Dredge-Brew, but unluckily he won't be legal there. At least I get a second City of Brass...

[easysantiago]

Does anyone else care that JOU is bringing yet more Dredge hate (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Agent+of+Erebos)?

[Juicy Karaage]

Does anyone else care that JOU is bringing a :3::b: unplayable crap card[/URL]?

[Echelon]

Does anyone else care that JOU is bringing yet more Dredge hate (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Agent+of+Erebos)?

As I said in the other dredge board...


It costs 4 mana as opposed to somewhere between 0 and 2...

I think people'll rather go for the graveyard hate already available to them so no, I don't care.

[JPoJohnson]

T4 isn't really that intimidating. That card doesn't look very legacy playable.

[DarkJester]

T4 isn't really that intimidating. That card doesn't look very legacy playable.

Even Crypt Incursion would be better, and this shit doesn't see play at all. So now you may sleep well again. :smile:

[Vandalize]

Sup guys. Have you tried to replace all Putrid Imps maindeck with Street Wraiths? I tried it and I still haven't reached a conclusion. Pretty much Street Wraith keeps our Ichorid resources and we can also fight early Deathrite Shaman activations. The only problem I see is that we might need to play the full Ichorid playset, and rely more on DDD (thus, draw in pretty much every dice-roll). The other problem I see would be the lack of body to flashback Therapy, but Narcomoebas can handle this fine, probably.

Something like this:

Lands [13]
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Mana Confluence
4 Gemstone Mine
1 City of Brass

Creatures [24]
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Street Wraith

Spells [23]
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Breakthrough

Sideboard [15]
4 Nature's Claim
4 Firestorm
2 Wispmare
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Dread Return
1 Griselbrand
1 Flame-kin Zealot

Putrid Imp, as most people agree in this forum, is the weakest card maindeck, and Deathrite Shaman being everywhere makes Street Wraith effect really appealling. Moreover, despite having less Discard Effects (and more important, a continous one) the extra free-draw effect can pull some extra dredging in early turns.

Can someone else try this and share thoughts?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Even Crypt Incursion would be better, and this shit doesn't see play at all. So now you may sleep well again. :smile:

It could be a good DReturn target in the mirror.

[Holly]

It could be a good DReturn target in the mirror.

No.

[Elfkid]

It could be a good DReturn target in the mirror.

Elesh norn is... GG in the mirror I think

And about the street wraigth I like the david thomas decklist

[jimmythegreek]

Elesh norn is... GG in the mirror I think

And about the street wraigth I like the david thomas decklist

I got around elesh norn by having a flayer out and recurring ichorids for a few turns.....super slow but my opponent was at very low life. This obviously can only happen if you get your flayer out first, unless I'm missing something.

[JPoJohnson]

General question:

If you had to post a list that you felt was the most consistent in terms of balancing consistency/explosiveness of a dread return list, what would you feel a 'stock' list would look like?

How different from the following list would it be and what would those changes be?



12 LANDS
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

23 CREATURES
4 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

17 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
2 Dread Return

8 OTHER SPELLS
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below

SIDEBOARD
4 Nature's Claim
3 Firestorm
1 Ashen Rider
4 Faerie Macabre
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Wear / Tear

[raikenxy]

[QUOTE=JPoJohnson;807988]General question:

If you had to post a list that you felt was the most consistent in terms of balancing consistency/explosiveness of a dread return list, what would you feel a 'stock' list would look like?

How different from the following list would it be and what would those changes be?[/

I would run 3 ichorids 4 thugs and 2 breakthroughs as the main differences and change the return target to a Flayer

[easysantiago]

T4 isn't really that intimidating. That card doesn't look very legacy playable.

You're entirely right!

[ottofromorbit]

Even Crypt Incursion would be better, and this shit doesn't see play at all. So now you may sleep well again. :smile:

I've asked every player I know for their crypt incursions.
It's not a card that anyone plays. I'm trying to keep it that way.

[easysantiago]

As I said in the other dredge board...

I agree with you. I didn't think it through before I posted...Oops!

[joemauer]

General question:

If you had to post a list that you felt was the most consistent in terms of balancing consistency/explosiveness of a dread return list, what would you feel a 'stock' list would look like?

How different from the following list would it be and what would those changes be?

I would not try and find a balance. I would either go for the combo kill in deck with 2-3 dread returns+flayer+Grizzlebrand or do just 0-1 dread returns only. The reason being that when you try and compromise in the middle you get both styles weaknesses. You get weaker hands that may have to be mulled and you won't be able to "combo off" fast enough or consistently enough to warrant the inclusion of those three cards.


@Vandalize: I've replaced Breakthrough and Putrid Imp with Street Wraith and Firestorm and have been very happy with the switch so far.

[JPoJohnson]

I would not try and find a balance. I would either go for the combo kill in deck with 2-3 dread returns+flayer+Grizzlebrand or do just 0-1 dread returns only. The reason being that when you try and compromise in the middle you get both styles weaknesses. You get weaker hands that may have to be mulled and you won't be able to "combo off" fast enough or consistently enough to warrant the inclusion of those three cards.


@Vandalize: I've replaced Breakthrough and Putrid Imp with Street Wraith and Firestorm and have been very happy with the switch so far.

So which do you think is overall the better deck? (Ignoring metas in specific areas and just stating overall against legacy decks in general).

You're saying something more like this?


Lands (12)
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum

Creatures (21)
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
1 Griselbrand
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

Spells (23)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
3 Dread Return
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

[joemauer]

If I were to play Dread Return it would be in a similar deck list as you posted.

I think Dread Returnless is the way to go at the moment, but that is just my opinion and wouldn't be shocked to find out I am wrong.

[drude1]

If I were to play Dread Return it would be in a similar deck list as you posted.

I think Dread Returnless is the way to go at the moment, but that is just my opinion and wouldn't be shocked to find out I am wrong.

I personally play a very combo heavy version with 3 dread return, 2 grisel and a flayer for game one which has been great so far. I do tend to cut most of that for post SB games unless I'm playing against other heavy combo decks (ie ANT, show and tell, belcher, OOPS, etc). I like to win the turn I "go off". This is mostly due to the fact I've been seeing a lot of ensnaring bridges lately.


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[JPoJohnson]

I personally play a very combo heavy version with 3 dread return, 2 grisel and a flayer for game one which has been great so far. I do tend to cut most of that for post SB games unless I'm playing against other heavy combo decks (ie ANT, show and tell, belcher, OOPS, etc). I like to win the turn I "go off". This is mostly due to the fact I've been seeing a lot of ensnaring bridges lately.


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And do you run Pimps?

[Que]

I personally play a very combo heavy version with 3 dread return, 2 grisel and a flayer for game one which has been great so far. I do tend to cut most of that for post SB games unless I'm playing against other heavy combo decks (ie ANT, show and tell, belcher, OOPS, etc). I like to win the turn I "go off". This is mostly due to the fact I've been seeing a lot of ensnaring bridges lately.


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Why do you run those cards main if you're just going to side them out post board? Game 1 should be the easiest game to win regardless of whether you're playing the quadlazer list or the "combo heavy" version. If anything you're diminishing your chances Game 1 by introducing cards that are dead (Dread Return, Grisel, Flayer) in your opening 7. The cards don't do anything unless you've already go something going. I would just keep the heavy combo pieces in your board when you encounter faster combo like Belcher, Storm variants, and OOPs,etc.. which are a lot less prevalent in my general experience.

Also if ensnaring bridge is causing you problems I would run Ancient Grudge/s an or an Ashen Rider/Woodfal Primus/Terrastodon in your board which you should have anyways to deal with random things like Elephant Grass, Peacekeeper, Dueling Grounds, and other random junk people like to play in their sb.

The only time I would really want an "I Win" button Dread Return Target would be against something like Lands which can put you under a vice grip with Tabernacle and Maze of Ith making it impossible to grind them out with creatures. Again this is also not an ideal case as there aren't very many dedicated lands players. The deck is expensive I hear.

[Technics]

The only time I would really want an "I Win" button Dread Return Target would be against something like Lands which can put you under a vice grip with Tabernacle and Maze of Ith making it impossible to grind them out with creatures. Again this is also not an ideal case as there aren't very many dedicated lands players. The deck is expensive I hear.

I completely agree. I have cut the "I win" package and have never looked back. Infact I am down to just 1 DR target in the board "Iona" and 2 DR's (1 main, 1 side). You really don't need them. I would rather play more anti hate.

[KobeBryan]

Cabal Therapy is my favorite card mein. I'm biased. :P I think one of the strengths of the deck is pulling insane value from that card. Thats why knowing which cards can adversely hurt you is really important. Once you get your engine online there are really only a handful of cards you'd really care about.

I still kicked ur ass with my bojuka bogs. Name that sucka

[Que]

I still kicked ur ass with my bojuka bogs. Name that sucka

Whose this? xD

And yes I do hate Bojuka Bog for that very reason and the Lands matchup all together. Though it could be you were playing Junk?

[drude1]

I do actually. Although I may ditch them as well as I dropped down to 2 ichorids.


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[Que]

I do actually. Although I may ditch them as well as I dropped down to 2 ichorids.


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I guess cause you're playing the combo version? 2 Ichorids sounds completely wrong. Its the best creature in the deck that isn't Troll.

[drude1]

I guess cause you're playing the combo version? 2 Ichorids sounds completely wrong. Its the best creature in the deck that isn't Troll.

It is indeed because I run a heavy combo version (with 4 lotus petal even). What I've found is that even if your dread returns and therapies get countered, you are still making zombies to beat down with. Thus, the ichorids have been largely irrelevant game one. The biggest reason I would keep the putrid imps in is because they are the easiest creature to drop and sac. Also, post SB the imps work better to slow roll the dredge plan so you don't get blown own by a one time graveyard effect like a bog. In fact I often side out LED and breakthroughs for the same reason. Nothing worse than breakthroughing and then getting bogged or crypted out of the game.
I also play with a semi-transitional SB (I started with the painter combo but have moved on) and am just more of a combo freak than most other dredge players I think. I'm certainly not saying it's the the best, most consistent dredge version ever.


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[KobeBryan]

Whose this? xD

And yes I do hate Bojuka Bog for that very reason and the Lands matchup all together. Though it could be you were playing Junk?

Its been a while...but i played the bant list.

[Que]

It is indeed because I run a heavy combo version (with 4 lotus petal even). What I've found is that even if your dread returns and therapies get countered, you are still making zombies to beat down with. Thus, the ichorids have been largely irrelevant game one. The biggest reason I would keep the putrid imps in is because they are the easiest creature to drop and sac. Also, post SB the imps work better to slow roll the dredge plan so you don't get blown own by a one time graveyard effect like a bog. In fact I often side out LED and breakthroughs for the same reason. Nothing worse than breakthroughing and then getting bogged or crypted out of the game.
I also play with a semi-transitional SB (I started with the painter combo but have moved on) and am just more of a combo freak than most other dredge players I think. I'm certainly not saying it's the the best, most consistent dredge version ever.


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I've never really played with Lotus Petals. I don't think I've seen any list run them competitively anyway. I think having only a couple of Ichorids to generate extra zombies with could lead to serious issues when you do face a DRS game 1. It will most likely eat your Ichorids before you even have the chance to recur them once. This will definitely put a strain on your DR game plan as you would naturally have to drop creatures onto the board with which to sacrifice (remember Narcomoeba can also get eaten when it hits the graveyard before its trigger resolves).

Game 2. There really isn't a way to play around BOG. Most of the time if they're using it like a Tormond's Crypt then yeah sure, but in my experience this card is normally paired with something like Crop Rotation which can blow you out at any moment. If they do use it at sorcery speed then the strategy would be to put as much power onto the board before it comes down. This usually means you have to hedge your bets, the only real way to hit a critical mass would be to keep LEDs in as its still does what we want (it being mana and a discard outlet in one) and is even more busted against the non blue decks. This can vary depending on the matchup obviously.

And yeah we can all play what we went its our prerogative. But I'm just trying to lead pilots to a more consistent avenue to victory rather than the flashier one.

[TableTopMagic]

I personally play a very combo heavy version with 3 dread return, 2 grisel and a flayer for game one which has been great so far. I do tend to cut most of that for post SB games unless I'm playing against other heavy combo decks (ie ANT, show and tell, belcher, OOPS, etc). I like to win the turn I "go off". This is mostly due to the fact I've been seeing a lot of ensnaring bridges lately.


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What does your list look like?

[drude1]

What does your list look like?

4 x ggt
4 x stinky
3 x thug

2 x ichorid
4 x narcomeoba
3 x putrid imp
1 x griselbrand (2 until recently)
1 x flayer

3 x careful study
4 x looting
2 x breakthrough
3 x dread return
4 x cabal therapy
4 x bridge

3 x petal
3 x led

4 x city
4 x gemstone
4 x colosseum

If you really really really want to go combo heavy, cut the putrid imps for a breakthrough, led, and 2nd griselbrand


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[TableTopMagic]

4 x ggt
4 x stinky
3 x thug

2 x ichorid
4 x narcomeoba
3 x putrid imp
1 x griselbrand (2 until recently)
1 x flayer

3 x careful study
4 x looting
2 x breakthrough
3 x dread return
4 x cabal therapy
4 x bridge

3 x petal
3 x led

4 x city
4 x gemstone
4 x colosseum

If you really really really want to go combo heavy, cut the putrid imps for a breakthrough, led, and 2nd griselbrand


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I am surprised to see no Street Wraiths.

[ottofromorbit]

Petals are the best way to build this to be combo
We're not reinventing the wheel here but it is the risky-non-traditional list.
What comes out for side ins?
Let's say we need 5-6 anti hate.
Take out LEDs petals?..
Can it stay consistent?

Will a belcher pkg for games 2-3 work if we cut mana?
I've heard it been tried before.
Maybe going with something like:
x4 chrome mox x1 petal x1 led x4 dark rit x4 cabal rit x4charbelcher.

The lands mess this up but not enough slots unless we maindeck simian spirit guide.
Geeze I'm going diff direction here but if game 2-3 hate is messing with our endgame, ..,
thinking outside the box ...

[JPoJohnson]

Petals are the best way to build this to be combo
We're not reinventing the wheel here but it is the risky-non-traditional list.
What comes out for side ins?
Let's say we need 5-6 anti hate.
Take out LEDs petals?..
Can it stay consistent?

Will a belcher pkg for games 2-3 work if we cut mana?
I've heard it been tried before.
Maybe going with something like:
x4 chrome mox x1 petal x1 led x4 dark rit x4 cabal rit x4charbelcher.

The lands mess this up but not enough slots unless we maindeck simian spirit guide.
Geeze I'm going diff direction here but if game 2-3 hate is messing with our endgame, ..,
thinking outside the box ...
Jason Bulkowski had a painter sideboard:
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
3 Unmask

[drude1]

Jason Bulkowski had a painter sideboard:
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
3 Unmask

Ummm, which he got from me and credits me for (although that makes me sound like the troll king). I got to 9th twice on SCG opens with that board, which I liked a lot, but eventually gave up on because the only thing that was truly conducive to that game plan in the main was the L.E.D.. You also have to have a very land heavy version of the deck as well, which makes game one a little clunkier.
I'm actually trying this board right now:

4 phyrexian dreadnought
3 stifle
3 vision charm
3 firestorm
2 nature's claim.

The cool thing about this board is that it mostly still fits into the dredge plan pretty well. Vision charm will blink the dreadnought, mill four cards from the top instantly, or blink out a hate piece (eg grafdigger's cage, etc) for a turn to let us go off. Stifle obviously aids the dreadnought combo and stops things like bog, crypt, DRT for a turn, etc. And worse case scenario dreadnought without another combo piece makes zombies for us and/or removes bridges in mirrors. In general I have felt less "all in" on the SB with this version. The problem I have with this plan is it's still dead to a swords or other spot removal, so it would be nice to transition into a creature less plan.
I don't think it works to try to transition into belcher with LED dredge because of all the lands, but I guess you could try to side a bunch out. Then your whole SB would have to be dedicated to it and you would probably have 30 dead cards (your dredgers for example). That's what I didn't like about the painter package.
One other thing I was considering was to go with more of a reanimator package with very heavy discard and reanimate spells. Maybe something like this?

4 reanimate
4 animate dead
4 unmask
1 Iona
2 firestorm

or something around show and tell

4 show and tell
3 Goryo's Vengeance
2 griselbrand (adding a second to the main)
3 emrakul (obviously not great synergy with dredge) or 3 x other fatties with reanimate instead of GV
3 unmask

Anyway, always looking for innovative ideas. I certainly know this is getting away from traditional dredge builds, so don't bother flaming about how dredge is supposed to grind people out. This is just another path the deck could go.



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[ottofromorbit]

Ummm, which he got from me and credits me for (although that makes me sound like the troll king). I got to 9th twice on SCG opens with that board, which I liked a lot, but eventually gave up on because the only thing that was truly conducive to that game plan in the main was the L.E.D.. You also have to have a very land heavy version of the deck as well, which makes game one a little clunkier.
I'm actually trying this board right now:

4 phyrexian dreadnought
3 stifle
3 vision charm
3 firestorm
2 nature's claim.

The cool thing about this board is that it mostly still fits into the dredge plan pretty well. Vision charm will blink the dreadnought, mill four cards from the top instantly, or blink out a hate piece (eg grafdigger's cage, etc) for a turn to let us go off. Stifle obviously aids the dreadnought combo and stops things like bog, crypt, DRT for a turn, etc. And worse case scenario dreadnought without another combo piece makes zombies for us and/or removes bridges in mirrors. In general I have felt less "all in" on the SB with this version. The problem I have with this plan is it's still dead to a swords or other spot removal, so it would be nice to transition into a creature less plan.
I don't think it works to try to transition into belcher with LED dredge because of all the lands, but I guess you could try to side a bunch out. Then your whole SB would have to be dedicated to it and you would probably have 30 dead cards (your dredgers for example). That's what I didn't like about the painter package.
One other thing I was considering was to go with more of a reanimator package with very heavy discard and reanimate spells. Maybe something like this?

4 reanimate
4 animate dead
4 unmask
1 Iona
2 firestorm

or something around show and tell

4 show and tell
3 Goryo's Vengeance
2 griselbrand (adding a second to the main)
3 emrakul (obviously not great synergy with dredge) or 3 x other fatties with reanimate instead of GV
3 unmask

Anyway, always looking for innovative ideas. I certainly know this is getting away from traditional dredge builds, so don't bother flaming about how dredge is supposed to grind people out. This is just another path the deck could go.



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painters grindstone ive seen. its good. i havent considered those other options.
thanks for sharing.

[Final Fortune]

I've been putting in the hours with LED Dredge and come to the conclusion that Putrid Imp should be cut for Street Wraith, I subbed Putrid Imp for Street Wraith in Quad-Lazer and was impressed with the results, being able to cyle on your first turn for Threshold off of a Lion's Eye Diamond for Cephalid Coliseum and being able to protect a Dredger from Deathrite Shaman on the draw is just insanely good. Deathrite Shaman is just too much of a threat to Dredge in order to be able to take a turn to play a Putrid Imp, Firestorm can't really deal with decks that play Deathrite Shaman and Rest in Peace and both cards expose the mana base to Wasteland.

[drude1]

I've been putting in the hours with LED Dredge and come to the conclusion that Putrid Imp should be cut for Street Wraith, I subbed Putrid Imp for Street Wraith in Quad-Lazer and was impressed with the results, being able to cyle on your first turn for Threshold off of a Lion's Eye Diamond for Cephalid Coliseum and being able to protect a Dredger from Deathrite Shaman on the draw is just insanely good. Deathrite Shaman is just too much of a threat to Dredge in order to be able to take a turn to play a Putrid Imp, Firestorm can't really deal with decks that play Deathrite Shaman and Rest in Peace and both cards expose the mana base to Wasteland.

I do obviously see where wraiths are good against DRT and can see your argument for that. The advantage of putrid imp though is that it allows you to slow roll your game plan against a lot of hate. I played a game online yesterday where I won against 2 tormods crypts because I was able to hold dredgers and throw them out one at a time. Putrid imp and wraith play very different roles in the deck


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[Final Fortune]

I do obviously see where wraiths are good against DRT and can see your argument for that. The advantage of putrid imp though is that it allows you to slow roll your game plan against a lot of hate. I played a game online yesterday where I won against 2 tormods crypts because I was able to hold dredgers and throw them out one at a time. Putrid imp and wraith play very different roles in the deck


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What deck in the format SBs Tormod's Crypt any more? Even Relic of Progenitus is unusual post Rest in Peace. Sure Putrid Imp has its place vs that kind of hate, but I don't think it really exists in significant numbers.

[indefinite.soul]

I think the primer for both variants should present a "trigger for dummies" section, where it explains even the basic ones and the more advanced ones:
-when your opponent's creature and your creature dies, you need to put in the stack first the "remove the bridge from your graveyard" trigger and then the token generation, so the late resolves first and you gain tokens before removing your bridges
-that you can activate coliseum in response to ichorid's ability going to stack, so you can remove black creatures for ichorid that you didn't even had before that
-that you can sac led in response to draw spells (and that you should remember to choose to generate RRR, unless you have an untapped coliseum)
-that you can respond your own phantasmagorian trigger going to stack so you can discard 6 cards at once instead of only 3
an so on...

[drude1]

What deck in the format SBs Tormod's Crypt any more? Even Relic of Progenitus is unusual post Rest in Peace. Sure Putrid Imp has its place vs that kind of hate, but I don't think it really exists in significant numbers.

First off, you'll have to explain to me how street wraith is better than putrid imp against rest in peace. I don't think we are talking about rest in peace here. And to assume that every deck plays rest in peace is to assume that every deck plays white mana. I'm thinking more about all of the other decks. You have to have a separate plan against RIP, thus transitional sideboards.
Again, I get how wraith is good against a DRT activation, but my point is that imp is good against a lot of other hate, including tormods crypt, relic, Bojuka bog, etc. it also drops for one and sacs to therapy and dread return. Basically, wraith is good against spot removal such as DRT and maybe surgical (if they are targeting a dredger), and imp is good against mass graveyard removal. Pick your poison.


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[Smea.gol.lum]

Another aspect is the reduction of discard outlets when you replace Putrid Imps with Street Wraiths.

With Street Wraiths there are more hands that lose to a single FoW (e.g. compare T1 Imp -->FoW, T2 Looting/Study to T1 Looting/Study-->FoW, Cycle into nothing).

[JPoJohnson]

Ummm, which he got from me and credits me for (although that makes me sound like the troll king).

Didn't realize that Daniel Rude (although now that I see your username it clicks) was on these forums. I simply credited Jason Bulkowski because people know his name from his top 8s. I did know that you were credited.

[Mindlash]

First off, you'll have to explain to me how street wraith is better than putrid imp against rest in peace. I don't think we are talking about rest in peace here. And to assume that every deck plays rest in peace is to assume that every deck plays white mana. I'm thinking more about all of the other decks. You have to have a separate plan against RIP, thus transitional sideboards.
Again, I get how wraith is good against a DRT activation, but my point is that imp is good against a lot of other hate, including tormods crypt, relic, Bojuka bog, etc. it also drops for one and sacs to therapy and dread return. Basically, wraith is good against spot removal such as DRT and maybe surgical (if they are targeting a dredger), and imp is good against mass graveyard removal. Pick your poison.


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I guess what he means is RiP and DRS replace old hatecards like Tormod's Crypt in most decks.

Decks with BG in it use DRS.
Decks with white in it use RiP.
Decks without any of the aforementioned use 1-2 cages.

You will have exeptions to this...true. But most of the time it is really that easy.

Putrid Imp was very strong agains crypt, relic and bog, but these cards went back in numbers.

I only see a few relics out of Merfolks sideboard, but Merfolk shouldn't be a problem anyways and the day I have a bad matchup against merfolk is the day I will quit playing magic ;)

Greetings Mindlash

[drude1]

I guess what he means is RiP and DRS replace old hatecards like Tormod's Crypt in most decks.

Decks with BG in it use DRS.
Decks with white in it use RiP.
Decks without any of the aforementioned use 1-2 cages.

You will have exeptions to this...true. But most of the time it is really that easy.

Putrid Imp was very strong agains crypt, relic and bog, but these cards went back in numbers.

I only see a few relics out of Merfolks sideboard, but Merfolk shouldn't be a problem anyways and the day I have a bad matchup against merfolk is the day I will quit playing magic ;)

Greetings Mindlash

So again, you are saying play wraiths for DRS. I don't argue that. If you see tons of DRS in your meta definitely play wraiths. Where I play I tend to see a descent amount of Ipainter (crypts), lands (bog), and an array of delver decks (usually cages and/or surgical). Again, I'm not saying playing the wraith is wrong, but putrid imp is still very playable as well, especially again because it's a one drop that is a recurring discard outlet and sac-able creature for zombies. My biggest problem with street wraith is that, without imp as a discard outlet, you are relying more on LED or breakthrough as your discard outlet, and then wraith is no longer in your hand anyway. You basically have to have dredger + looting + wraith for wraith to be any good. And if you are talking about manaless dredge, then you are on the wrong forum.


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[Mindlash]

So again, you are saying play wraiths for DRS. I don't argue that. If you see tons of DRS in your meta definitely play wraiths. Where I play I tend to see a descent amount of Ipainter (crypts), lands (bog), and an array of delver decks (usually cages and/or surgical). Again, I'm not saying playing the wraith is wrong, but putrid imp is still very playable as well, especially again because it's a one drop that is a recurring discard outlet and sac-able creature for zombies. My biggest problem with street wraith is that, without imp as a discard outlet, you are relying more on LED or breakthrough as your discard outlet, and then wraith is no longer in your hand anyway. You basically have to have dredger + looting + wraith for wraith to be any good. And if you are talking about manaless dredge, then you are on the wrong forum.


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I still play Pimps. I just tried to clarify what FF said. I find Street Wraith interesting though. Last tournament I played against Painter and 3 Bug Delver decks. Most played decks here are BUG followed long time by nothing. Second is Miracles followed by another whole lot of nothing. Afterwards comes the rest ;)

Sadly I am not able to find room for SW :-/ This deck has not many flex spots i guess. I didn't like Levins Careful Study cut for SW either.

Isn't the Led / Breakthrough hand totally playable with SW? At least combined? Play Led - BT - response Sw - respone crack Led? But yeah sure otherwise you are totally dependant on Careful Study and Faithless Looting.

Greetings Mindlash

PS: And yes FF talks about LED dredge and not Manaless Dredge since he mentions Led and Coliseum in his described plays. I wouldn't have mentioned Putrid Imp neither if I was talking about manaless.

[drude1]

Isn't the Led / Breakthrough hand totally playable with SW? At least combined? Play Led - BT - response Sw - respone crack Led?

Kinda, as you are getting one more draw out of it in this case, but you certainly can't use it in response to a DRS activation. You would be better off slow rolling until you can LED and colosseum in response to DRS.


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[nylarotep]

I tested out cutting PImps Monday at my LGS for SW since I figured there'd be alot of DRS running around ala BUG, Jund, Elves, and other stuff.

Of course, I ended up getting matched up against Mono-B Pox, G/W Enchantress, and Dark Maverick, going 0-3 (scooped game 2 in round 3 since I had to be somewhere).

I'll be adding PImps back in I think and trying to deal with DRS using Firestorm/Chain of Vapor SB and a 1-1 split of Darkblast MB/SB, as it felt like my hands were slower without the additional discard outlet, esp since I'm usually cutting LED/Breakthroughs for anti-hate games 2 and 3.

[DarkJester]

I tested out cutting PImps Monday at my LGS for SW since I figured there'd be alot of DRS running around ala BUG, Jund, Elves, and other stuff.

Of course, I ended up getting matched up against Mono-B Pox, G/W Enchantress, and Dark Maverick, going 0-3 (scooped game 2 in round 3 since I had to be somewhere).

I'll be adding PImps back in I think and trying to deal with DRS using Firestorm/Chain of Vapor SB and a 1-1 split of Darkblast MB/SB, as it felt like my hands were slower without the additional discard outlet, esp since I'm usually cutting LED/Breakthroughs for anti-hate games 2 and 3.

I'm just fine with cutting Breakthroughs for StreetWraith. Breakthrough seems to be a holy cow, but you already have 12 Draw-Effects (Looting, Study, Coliseum). Early versions played Coliseum, Breakthrough and 2 Deep Anal, sometimes with additional Studies. In my testings, Wraith was really bonkers, but not in the Imp-Slots, so Breakthrough seems to be the next-worse card to cut. Imp is a very good turn-1 play, fodder for DR/Ichorid/Therapy and helps beating GY-Holocaust-Effects like Spellbomb,Crypt or Relic.

[Que]

I'm just fine with cutting Breakthroughs for StreetWraith. Breakthrough seems to be a holy cow, but you already have 12 Draw-Effects (Looting, Study, Coliseum). Early versions played Coliseum, Breakthrough and 2 Deep Anal, sometimes with additional Studies. In my testings, Wraith was really bonkers, but not in the Imp-Slots, so Breakthrough seems to be the next-worse card to cut. Imp is a very good turn-1 play, fodder for DR/Ichorid/Therapy and helps beating GY-Holocaust-Effects like Spellbomb,Crypt or Relic.

Was to lazy to post earlier, but yeah this is pretty much the idea.

[JPoJohnson]

So there are some all-in combo lists that cut the Pimps and seem to do alright with it. Would you guys push against doing this? And why?

[Final Fortune]

Generally I just find Putrid Imp too slow and always want to cut Putrid Imp in numbers, I don't think there's a problem with outlets in this deck as you're technically playing a 56 card deck with Street Wraith and able to DDD around Deathrite Shaman but if there is a problem with outlets then I think 2 Phantasmagorian could shore it up by cutting a Golgari Thug and Ichorid.

[raikenxy]

as of round 6 damon whitby's piloting dredge and is currently sitting undefeated with a basic quadlazer list

[indefinite.soul]

as of round 6 damon whitby's piloting dredge and is currently sitting undefeated with a basic quadlazer list

11th with 8-2...=/ (to the fact that he is not on top 8. his performance was outstanding, of course)

Now, anyone got videos?

[raikenxy]

11th with 8-2...=/ (to the fact that he is not on top 8. his performance was outstanding, of course)

Now, anyone got videos?

he did well def,he almost lost to elves round 3 do to not having sac outlets to get past double deathrite but overall i dont think anyone can complain with a top 16 result. the council might have his videos in some weeks

[DarkJester]

he did well def,he almost lost to elves round 3 do to not having sac outlets to get past double deathrite but overall i dont think anyone can complain with a top 16 result. the council might have his videos in some weeks

Gratz to Parcher!

[Parcher]

Can't be too dissapointed. Deck worked pretty much perfectly for Dredge. Beat Cages all day, with various other hate splashed in. Losses were to the RW Painter mess in Top 8 due to RiP, then a mull to three. Then to Bertoncini due to double Surgical, double Snap, Plow, then to a mull to four. That mull was due to my misboarding, though. Not conceptually, mind you. I moved two of the wrong cards for game three, that likely cost me. Everything else went as expected.

I have to say it was swell meeting multiple Dredge players at the tourney who all seemed to know me. Your kind words, and the discussions we had were enjoyable and appreciated.

[Griselpuff]

Did they mix your list up with the other guys? Surprised if he had 4 Unmask and you didn't...:really:

[Parcher]

Did they mix your list up with the other guys? Surprised if he had 4 Unmask and you didn't...:really:

Not exactly. The other list was mine. But from GPDC. My list was posted correctly.

[joemauer]

...Then to Bertoncini due to double Surgical, double Snap, Plow,...

Not surprised that Bertoncini "drew" all the perfect cards against you.

[Parcher]

Not surprised that Bertoncini "drew" all the perfect cards against you.

Cute. But we had at least a dozen people watching our match. He opened with one Surgical and Snap for certain. Then Brainstormed, shuffled, and then Pondered into the second Surgical the turn before he would have died, the turn after Snapping the first Surgical. He just had it.

[slave]

My list was posted correctly.
Could you post a link?

[Ozymandias]

Not exactly. The other list was mine. But from GPDC. My list was posted correctly.

I was the other guy. Deck was aces all day. Didn't have 2x more confluences, so I just yoloed it. Sb was fine. Loss was to unspeakably scummy move that I should have called a judge on. Water under the bridge now. People need more hate if they wanna beat dredge.

[Michael Keller]

I was the other guy. Deck was aces all day. Didn't have 2x more confluences, so I just yoloed it. Sb was fine. Loss was to unspeakably scummy move that I should have called a judge on. Water under the bridge now. People need more hate if they wanna beat dredge.

What happened?

[Parcher]

Could you post a link?

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=05/24/2014&end_date=05/25/2014&start=1&finish=16&state=NJ

[Ozymandias]

What happened?

I'm playing versus infect. He's got hierarch, nexus, forest, pendlehaven, 1 unknwon card in hand. I had 2 narcos in yard, thug, ichy, threshed putrid, and 2x zombies in play, bridge in yard. I DR saccing my real creatures precombat--one Narco to play, one narco from thug tirgger to top of deck. My opponent says I targeted 1 narco with both triggers. Judge watching the game says I did too. I would never do anything intentionally idiotic of that nature. But I am too tired and wired and timid to appeal. Of course his last card is Invigorate and I die. Then Game 3 I run into a force, daze, infector hand with one land plying 90 degrees tilted. Just a second person to add to my Agrajag list of ultimate MTG hatred.

[TableTopMagic]

@Parcher
How was running Abrupt Decay?

[Parcher]

@Parcher
How was running Abrupt Decay?

Not sure that I understand the question. It's a pretty straightforward card, and it's applications should be obvious. I did have to add two lands to the SB, and have access to Mana Confluence(over Paradise, or Citadel) to accommodate the difficult mana requirements for casting Decay. And cut one of my beloved PImps so that I could have access to all 8 cantrips so as to be able to find Decay reasonably. But I had figured that all out some time ago. As I mentioned earlier, everything worked as I expected. I only run 3 Decay, as I believe there are only two or three matchups where I would ever want the fourth. Having access to Chains helps with those, and shores up problems with stuff like Leyline or Reanimator, that Decay wouldn't. Or to board in as a catch-all, in the rare cases where I can't figure out what they'll be bringing for Game Two, and don't want to over-sideboard.

[Ozymandias]

Study was quite good at digging. I am thinking of cutting down a breakthrough or 2 to get more into the deck. The other thing I was thinking was a 4th coliseum for uncounterable dredging, but it doesn't work at all solo.

[slave]

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=05/24/2014&end_date=05/25/2014&start=1&finish=16&state=NJ
Thank you.

No Dread Return package?
I understand D.R. is mainly a zombie generator, but why include just one? IS it to goad an opponent spend their extraction on them (or Griselbrand) potentially?
What matchups were siding in all the land/petals for?

Cheers

[Parcher]

The one DR does come in against Extraction. It is there, however, mainly for Land-based decks that we can't normally interact with. Rider serves the same purpose as Terastodon as far as removing troublesome permanents. Rider has some advantages though. It can remove creatures, which is barely relevant. But against Lands and Post there are two major upgrades. Oftenyou can go off, and they already have the Chasm, Tabernacle, etc. in hand. The Don really wont get full value there, where Rider laughs at both Tabernacle and Chasm even if already in play. Also, Rider exiles said lands so they can't Loam them back. The deck doesn't need any help adding more DR targets for other matchups.

The extra lands are to enable Decay, and/or against Tempo decks. The Petals come against any Combo, and decks without countermagic, or a turn one/zero hate sweeper. With any discard spell, any draw spell, a land and a dredger, and/or drawing any of these missing pieces off a T1 cantrip, Petal effectively is at least a time walk.

[Parcher]

Just because I get so many requests for it:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
4 Ichorid

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 City of Brass

3 Lotus Petal
3 Firestorm
2 City of Brass
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Dread Return
1 Ashen Rider

DBlade:+2 City,+2 Decay,+3 Fstorm,+1 Dread/-4 LED,-4 Bthrough
DBlade:(OP)+3 Petal,+1 Dread,+1 Rider/-1 City,-4 LED
Patriot:+2 City,+2 Fstorm,+3 Decay,+1 Chain/-4 LED,-1 Thug,-2 BThrou,-1 PImp
Miracles:+3 Petal,+1 Dread,+1 Rider/-1 Ichorid,-1 City,-2 PImp,-1 Thug

BUG:+2 City,+3 Fstorm,+3 Decay/-4 LED,-4 Bthrough
RUG:+2 City,+3 Fstorm,+3 Decay/-4 LED,-3 Bthrough,-1 Thug
Merfolk:+2 City,+3 Fstorm,+3 Decay/-4 LED,-1 Thug,-2 Bthrough
U/Burn:+3 Fstorm,+1 Dread/-4 LED
Tide:+3 Petal,+1 Dread,+1 Rider/-1 City,-1 Thug,-1 Ichorid,-2 Study
Post:+3 Petal,+1 Dread,+1 Rider/-1 City,-2 PImp,-1 Thug,-1 Ichorid
Reanimator:+3 Petal,+1 Dread,+2 Chain/-2 PImp,-1 City,-2 Ichorid,-1 Thug
Bant:+3 Fstorm,+3 Decay,+1 City/-4 LED,-3 Bthrough
Show:+3 Petal,+1 Dread,+1 Rider/-2 Ichorid,-1 City,-2 PImp

AdN:+3 Petal/-1 City,-2 Ichorid
Elves:+2 Petal,+3 Fstorm/-1 Ichorid,-1 City,-3 PImp
Gobs:+3 Decay,+3 Fstorm,+1 City/-4 LED,-1 Ichorid,-1 Thug,-1 Bthrou
MUD:+2 Fstor,+1 Dread,+1 Rider,+3 Petal/-1 Therp,-3 PImp,-1 Thug,-1 Ich,-1 Mine
D&T(OP):+3 Petal,+1 Dread,+1 Rider/-2 Ichorid,-1 City,-2 PImp
D&T(OD):+1 City,+2 Decay,+2 Chain/-2 PImp,-1 Therapy,-1 Ichorid,-1 Thug
Maverick:+3 Petal,+1 Dread/-2 Pimp,-1 City,-1 Ichorid
Dredg:+3 Petal,+1 Dread/-1 Ichorid,-1 Therapy,-1 City,-1 PImp
Burn:+3 Petal,+1 Dread/-2 PImp,-1 City,-1 Ichorid
Affin:+3 Decay,+1 City,+3 Fstorm,+2 Chain/-3 BThrou,-4 LED,-1 Thug,-1 Therp
Paint:+3 Decay,+1 City,+3 Fstorm,+1 Chain/-3 Bthrough,-4 LED,-1 Thug
Loam/Lands:+3 Petal,+1 Dread,+1 Rider/-3 PImp,-1 Ichorid,-1 City
Jund:+3 Petal,+1 Dread/-1 City(Ceph OP),-2 PImp,-1 Ichorid

With my usual caveat, that this is ONLY a guideline. And should not be canon in sideboarding. As always, I use it mainly to see how to actually build my SB, than to tell me how to SB in matches.

The one change I will likely make once I've worked through the logic is -1 Chain, +1 Memory's Journey. I almost never want the second Chain, though losing it makes Leyline an auto-win. But the Journey is as good, or better against Reanimator, and it gives me some play against Surgical that I currently don't have access to. Running the Quad list, one Surgical is barely a speedbump. But two are dangerous if they have a clock, and three are probably game.

[laserstone]

Why is lotus petal good in the sideboard? There was a bit of discussion in the thread earlier but I didn't fully understand. And is Decay better than Nature's Claim despite the casting cost?

In general, how would you tailor the board to a meta full of Maverick, Deathblade, BUG Delver, Nic Fit? Lots of creature based strategies.

[Michael Keller]

Why is lotus petal good in the sideboard? There was a bit of discussion in the thread earlier but I didn't fully understand. And is Decay better than Nature's Claim despite the casting cost?

In general, how would you tailor the board to a meta full of Maverick, Deathblade, BUG Delver, Nic Fit? Lots of creature based strategies.

Dredge - especially LED variants - usually roll those strategies. Firestorm is really all you need post-board, and even then that's not even needed in some match-ups.

[Ozymandias]

Why is lotus petal good in the sideboard? There was a bit of discussion in the thread earlier but I didn't fully understand. And is Decay better than Nature's Claim despite the casting cost?

In general, how would you tailor the board to a meta full of Maverick, Deathblade, BUG Delver, Nic Fit? Lots of creature based strategies.

As far as I can tell, the rationale for Petal is that you gain a full tempo if you play it and get to cast two spells turn 1--one to bin dredgers and another to Dredge with it. This will oftentimes be enough resources to overwhelm or race through graveyard hate--especially slow graveyard hate like DRS or Ooze. Similarly, you can race combo better. Decay is better than claim because you will very often only have one opportunity to remove their hate card, owing to your limited number of slots--so it best resolve.

I'm not Parcher, but I feel the best card in the deck versus creature strategies is Firestorm. It often buys one or two turns on its own, besides serving as an uncounterable discard outlet. And it also answers Deathrite pretty well. I boarded it in in every single match but Miracles--we're talking BUG Delver, Elves, Canadian Thresh, Jund, U/R delver, Burn, Shardless BUG, Infect, you name it.

[laserstone]

Dredge - especially LED variants - usually roll those strategies. Firestorm is really all you need post-board, and even then that's not even needed in some match-ups.

Hollywood, what's your current LED Dredge 75?

[Michael Keller]

I've retired from playing Dredge.

However, if I were to play LED Dredge again, I'm sure it would be a Quadlazer variant of some sorts similar to Parcher's list.

[Mindlash]

The one DR does come in against Extraction. It is there, however, mainly for Land-based decks that we can't normally interact with. Rider serves the same purpose as Terastodon as far as removing troublesome permanents. Rider has some advantages though. It can remove creatures, which is barely relevant. But against Lands and Post there are two major upgrades. Oftenyou can go off, and they already have the Chasm, Tabernacle, etc. in hand. The Don really wont get full value there, where Rider laughs at both Tabernacle and Chasm even if already in play. Also, Rider exiles said lands so they can't Loam them back. The deck doesn't need any help adding more DR targets for other matchups.

The extra lands are to enable Decay, and/or against Tempo decks. The Petals come against any Combo, and decks without countermagic, or a turn one/zero hate sweeper. With any discard spell, any draw spell, a land and a dredger, and/or drawing any of these missing pieces off a T1 cantrip, Petal effectively is at least a time walk.

Hi Parcher,

congratz to your results!

May I ask you whats your reasoning on playing the full set of gemstones oder cities? Especially in the grindy games I like to have permanent mana sources. I haven't tested either way yet though. Have still to order the playset of confluences.

Firestorms seem to be a big player in your sideboard (and in Ozymandias' sb too - congratz to you too by the way ^^). How does it fare in the matchups you bring it in? Something that annoys me is the opponent beeing able to eat my discarded dredger in response to his drs getting fried.

My sideboard currently looks like this (maindeck is quadlaser):

4 Nature's Claim (against permanent hate)
2 Goldlands (to cast claim more reliably)
2 Dread Return
1 Elesh (against Elves, Dredge and most creature decks)
1 Iona (against Combo)
1 Griselbrand (as some kind of joker who gets you the needed target (iona/elesh)
4 Nether Shadows (to overload drs/surgical with threats)

I can totally see the Firestorms replace the Nether Shadows in my current sideboard. I really like the card but was never be able to fit it in my sb :/

Thanks in advance and a nice weekend to all of you :)

Regards Chris

[(nameless one)]

Why isnt anyone playing a combo finish? FKZ off of an early turn library mill is always great. It leaves less time for your opponent to react.

[slave]

Why isnt anyone playing a combo finish? FKZ off of an early turn library mill is always great. It leaves less time for your opponent to react.
I am, but I haven't posted good results with LED-dredge for a while.
I seem to repeatedly churn out T1 or T2 zombies to have Grafdiggers/RiP nuke my yard, and then have to rely on finding a Claim or Vapor, or getting there with those few zombies alone.
Hate is pretty thick right now, but I'm not too sure if the Dread Return package is still considered optimal or not?!?

[Parcher]

I agree that Gemstone Mine can be problematic post-board due to it's far more needed multiple uses. Though it is still the best land in the main. However, with me running 15 Lands post, it has yet to prove an issue. In fact, it has worked better as a "permanent" source without running Paradise, since you get better decision trees if you are looking for a second or third land, and need to decide how likely it will be to draw one before you decide to use the "Paradise". Once you have the other lands, needing more than three uses from Gemstone is fairly rare.

Firestorm works well, or I wouldn't run it. If your opponent is sitting on DRS and a mana to respond, you usually have plenty of time to draw into multiple dredgers to mitigate this, since they won't be clocking you. Just use your normal draw step though. Don't fire Therapies and cantrips, as this will significantly increase said clock.

FKZ would be my third choice as a target after Terastodon. Petal makes it not a need against fast Combo, and while it is almost as good against Lands/Post, Chasm is still a thing. If I have room for only one target, it has to be able to deal with Lands.

[drude1]

I find it interesting that you can have 3 pages of talk about combo heavy dredge with transitional sideboards followed by 3 pages of Feldmanesque, "don't bother with a SB" grindy lists. Maybe some dredgers and bridge from below is all you really need. The rest is just filler.


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[Michael Keller]

I find it interesting that you can have 3 pages of talk about combo heavy dredge with transitional sideboards followed by 3 pages of Feldmanesque, "don't bother with a SB" grindy lists. Maybe some dredgers and bridge from below is a you really need. The rest is just filler.


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Exactly. The argument on which version is best will always be dependent on so many factors, but arguably it comes down to personal taste and that will never change.

[slave]

I agree that Gemstone Mine can be problematic post-board due to it's far more needed multiple uses. Though it is still the best land in the main. However, with me running 15 Lands post, it has yet to prove an issue. In fact, it has worked better as a "permanent" source without running Paradise, since you get better decision trees if you are looking for a second or third land, and need to decide how likely it will be to draw one before you decide to use the "Paradise". Once you have the other lands, needing more than three uses from Gemstone is fairly rare.
Yeah I tend to agree here. Not needing to lose life on each land activation does have it's merits.
I have very rarely had to use all 3 Gemstone mine counters to combo off > usually that's against the taxing style matchups.

I find it interesting that you can have 3 pages of talk about combo heavy dredge with transitional sideboards followed by 3 pages of Feldmanesque, "don't bother with a SB" grindy lists. Maybe some dredgers and bridge from below is all you really need. The rest is just filler.
LOL. Good point.

I would argue that these days you need an answer, or at least a strategy, for playing against Cage/RiP.

[Final Fortune]

Generally speaking I think playing a combo finish comes down to whether or not your meta game is prepared for Dredge or not, if it's not prepared for Dredge you can get away with a combo finish and if it is prepared for Dredge then you had better worry about how you're going to win thru' hate instead of how you're going to kill your opponent. You'll win game one regardless, so I usually build Dredge with game 2 in mind and then reverse sideboard to see what luxuries I can fit into the deck.

As a whole, I think it matters less now that everyone is playing RIP and Cage and attrition from Surgical Extraction is really no longer a major consideration, games don't really come down to attrition anymore.

[Que]

@Damon W.
@Caleb N.

1. What where the matchups you guys faced throughout the day?
2. What kind of graveyard hate did you see from your opponent? Was it relevant? And if so how did you navigate your way around it?
3. Did your sb cards do what they intended?
4. What would you change? Or was your 75 reinforced after the tournament's completion.

[Ozymandias]

@Damon W.
@Caleb N.

1. What where the matchups you guys faced throughout the day?
2. What kind of graveyard hate did you see from your opponent? Was it relevant? And if so how did you navigate your way around it?
3. Did your sb cards do what they intended?
4. What would you change? Or was your 75 reinforced after the tournament's completion.

Beat Miracles, Bant (I think), BUG Delver, Elves, Canadian Thresh, Jund, U/R delver, Burn. Lost to Shardless BUG, Infect, no particular order. The most common hate was DRS, so Firestorm did a ton of work--plus the anti-tempo applications. Unmask was great all day. I saw 0 stoneforges, so that's not exactly representative of Grudge's utility. Wear/Tear came in versus Miracles and killed a RIP, so it did what it was supposed to do. I also boarded it blind versus Infect and got a Nexus with it, which brought home its utility (Decay would not have worked there! ). I never lost a game due to Citadel, but it and the Paradise should realistically be more confluences. I could also see shaving an Imp for a Careful study to have slightly more keepable hands.

I saw many different types of hate--DRS, Relic, Extraction, Extirpate, RIP, Ooze, Cage--the only time I got wrecked by it was when I kept a 7 versus Shardless that wrecked a deathrite-dependant hand and had game versus Spellbomb (Bridge, 2x dredger, rainbow, coliseum, firestorm, Narco), but lost hard to the t1 Cage my opponent played. My elves opponent got an ooze-cradle thing going, but I was gonna lose that game anyhow after fizzling on dredges.

[mario91234]

greetings thread!!

my name is mario, im going to the invitational in a couple weeks here and I'd like to pick up dredge for that event. I've played it back when maverick was far more popular, but I honestly havent touched it in awhile. I'm a TES player at heart, but i do love some degererate magic. I'll be reading the primer, but any advice otherwise is much appreciated. The metagame im expecting is Sneak attack, blade-decks, elves, reanimator, and delver variants. If theres any specific metagames calls, I'd like to know about them ^^

Wish me luck and I'll be checking the thread regularly.
Thanks!

[Parcher]

@Damon W.
@Caleb N.

1. What where the matchups you guys faced throughout the day?
2. What kind of graveyard hate did you see from your opponent? Was it relevant? And if so how did you navigate your way around it?
3. Did your sb cards do what they intended?
4. What would you change? Or was your 75 reinforced after the tournament's completion.

I played BUG Delver twice, RUG, Miracles, Painter, Deathblade, D&T, Elves, Dredge, and something else.

I saw Lots of Cages and Deathrites, and a few RiP, Surgical, and Spellbombs. The one RiP was relevant since it was G1, and the Surgicals were only relevant when that opponent had two+Snap. I can't remember details.

I'm still not 100% one way or the other about Decay over Chain/Claim. If Patriot was still a Top5 deck, I would definitely run Decay. Unfortunately, Mana Confluence came out after Patriot's heyday. The slots even out, since you need more answers in case they counter a Claim. Compared to Decay, where I have to run more lands in those slots to facilitate it. But the extra mana to cast Decay slows the deck down anyway. So that would be a possible change, unless you expect a lot of Blue Tempo decks, where extra lands+Decay is worth it. Everything else was pretty much correct with the deck.

[slave]

I know this is probably gonna get laughed at....

Last weekend I took along 2 Carpet of Flowers in the side.
I play this card in Pact S.I. normally, but had a "bugger it" moment, why not?! It was only my local haunt, nothing serious...
Funnily enough, I had the opportunity to side them in 2 match-ups > Merfolk & Reanimator.
My side was;
3 Chains, 1 LotV, 4 Firestorm, 4 Nature's Claim, 1 Ashen Rider, 1 Bearer of the Heavens, 2 Carpets.
(my meta is very hate-filled right now)

The Carpets actually weren't as bad as I thought they would be, despite their niche application.
For Reanimator, I sided in these aswell as my Chains and LotV (usually I have 3 LotV, but wanted to test out carpet), and pretty quickly I was able to get use out of it. Fortunately I got one in a *keep* hand in both game 2 and 3.
Didn't happen to get one in the merfolk matchup, but I imagine it would have been useful.

I'm still not convinced > Lotus Petal seems better here.
....but the fact that Carpet gives us the ability to actually play cards from our hand with an active RiP/Cage in play, means I can't help but keep thinking about it....:eyebrow:

What do you fella's think about it?

[Ozymandias]

I know this is probably gonna get laughed at....

Last weekend I took along 2 Carpet of Flowers in the side.
I play this card in Pact S.I. normally, but had a "bugger it" moment, why not?! It was only my local haunt, nothing serious...
Funnily enough, I had the opportunity to side them in 2 match-ups > Merfolk & Reanimator.
My side was;
3 Chains, 1 LotV, 4 Firestorm, 4 Nature's Claim, 1 Ashen Rider, 1 Bearer of the Heavens, 2 Carpets.
(my meta is very hate-filled right now)

The Carpets actually weren't as bad as I thought they would be, despite their niche application.
For Reanimator, I sided in these aswell as my Chains and LotV (usually I have 3 LotV, but wanted to test out carpet), and pretty quickly I was able to get use out of it. Fortunately I got one in a *keep* hand in both game 2 and 3.
Didn't happen to get one in the merfolk matchup, but I imagine it would have been useful.

I'm still not convinced > Lotus Petal seems better here.
....but the fact that Carpet gives us the ability to actually play cards from our hand with an active RiP/Cage in play, means I can't help but keep thinking about it....:eyebrow:

What do you fella's think about it?

Dislike immensely. What if that carpet was actually a Nature's Claim? Instead of derping around with overcosted 1/1s, you can free yourself and actually win.

[slave]

Dislike immensely. What if that carpet was actually a Nature's Claim? Instead of derping around with overcosted 1/1s, you can free yourself and actually win.
Fair enough, but bear in mind I'd be bringing it in as a mana-source, not an answer. I already have Chains & Claims in the side for that.

Carpets become quite okay after turn 3, when you're routinely getting 2+ mana from them.
Considering we rarely have 3 mana or more on the field, being able to use any Lootings in the yard becomes pretty handy.:wink:

[ottofromorbit]

Fair enough, but bear in mind I'd be bringing it in as a mana-source, not an answer. I already have Chains & Claims in the side for that.

Carpets become quite okay after turn 3, when you're routinely getting 2+ mana from them.
Considering we rarely have 3 mana or more on the field, being able to use any Lootings in the yard becomes pretty handy.:wink:

TES deck is fun .As a combo player were trying to wreck him as soon as possible. Letting our opponent to draw into hate or permission cards is deadly. The carpet of flowers should most definitely be antihate. Then just win. (Dredge isn't too worried about mana.)
Quad laser players have a slightly more patient approach. Game 1 is always a breeze cabal therapy will gain us the edge in pretty much every game but, antihate is still the #1 sb option. We've been tinkering with extra mana sources for flexibility. Even with extra mana options were still playing the same speed and no significant consistent improvements.
I believe most issues are handled with 3x firestorms, 3x unmasks, 4x natures claims maybe a set of nether shadows to get around surgical extraction or style points.
Dredge is juggernaut with an "Achilles heel." mana ramp won't matter if you can't work the graveyard.
Most fun deck to play with. Ever

[slave]

All good points > no argument here.
Carpet is a card I felt like testing out, is all.

So I went to the local night before last with LED-Dredge in hand, a list containing Dread Return / Griselbrand.
Sideboard was the same as last time, with two Carpets. Seems the night was light on hate, I copped a RiP against D&T, but otherwise it was only extraction!! :laugh:
My matchups were R-Goblins, BW-Death and Taxes, UG-Eldrazi, U-delver. Only got in 4, as I had to take a bye and the judge had enough after 5 rounds.
Went 3-1.:wink:, lost against D&T.

Carpets came in for two matches, and whilst it was very good against Delver, it wasn't useful enough elsewhere > I think this will be enough for this little experiment.
A question;
Is Hull Breach considered obsolete now we have Abrupt decay?

[Final Fortune]

I played BUG Delver twice, RUG, Miracles, Painter, Deathblade, D&T, Elves, Dredge, and something else.

I saw Lots of Cages and Deathrites, and a few RiP, Surgical, and Spellbombs. The one RiP was relevant since it was G1, and the Surgicals were only relevant when that opponent had two+Snap. I can't remember details.

I'm still not 100% one way or the other about Decay over Chain/Claim. If Patriot was still a Top5 deck, I would definitely run Decay. Unfortunately, Mana Confluence came out after Patriot's heyday. The slots even out, since you need more answers in case they counter a Claim. Compared to Decay, where I have to run more lands in those slots to facilitate it. But the extra mana to cast Decay slows the deck down anyway. So that would be a possible change, unless you expect a lot of Blue Tempo decks, where extra lands+Decay is worth it. Everything else was pretty much correct with the deck.

Do you SB in removal vs Rest in Peace as opposed to Unmask, I never found removing it to be the better of the strategies?

[JPoJohnson]

All good points > no argument here.
Carpet is a card I felt like testing out, is all.

So I went to the local night before last with LED-Dredge in hand, a list containing Dread Return / Griselbrand.
Sideboard was the same as last time, with two Carpets. Seems the night was light on hate, I copped a RiP against D&T, but otherwise it was only extraction!! :laugh:
My matchups were R-Goblins, BW-Death and Taxes, UG-Eldrazi, U-delver. Only got in 4, as I had to take a bye and the judge had enough after 5 rounds.
Went 3-1.:wink:, lost against D&T.

Carpets came in for two matches, and whilst it was very good against Delver, it wasn't useful enough elsewhere > I think this will be enough for this little experiment.
A question;
Is Hull Breach considered obsolete now we have Abrupt decay?

I'll answer your question with a question: When would you want to run Hull Breach over Abrupt Decay? The only thing that I can think of is if Leyline of the Void is ridiculously abundant. Like, much much Leyline. But... I would just run Wispmare if that were the case so i can't think of a situation where I personally would run Hull breach as my first choice.

[Parcher]

Do you SB in removal vs Rest in Peace as opposed to Unmask, I never found removing it to be the better of the strategies?

Only against Patriot. And only because they also run Cage, Plow, and 12 T1 counterspells, so racing RiP is not a viable plan.

[Ozymandias]

Only against Patriot. And only because they also run Cage, Plow, and 12 T1 counterspells, so racing RiP is not a viable plan.

Over the course of playing versus UWR, I have found myself bringing in Firestorms, Unmask, and whatever RIP removal I have, and cutting LED, breakthrough, DR, and some Imps.

[slave]

When would you want to run Hull Breach over Abrupt Decay?
Sure, I know Decay is a better choice (LotV excepted) > Is the ability to hit more than one target actually relevant?

[SHABOOGS]

Question to those that have tried Abrupt Decay: With 12 gold lands and 3 Abrupt Decays plus cantrips, do you get to cast Abrupt Decay consistent enough during postboard games and win before they get another piece of hate?

[slave]

Question to those that have tried Abrupt Decay: With 12 gold lands and 3 Abrupt Decays plus cantrips, do you get to cast Abrupt Decay consistent enough during postboard games and win before they get another piece of hate?
IME with the deck, it depends on the opponent > if it's hate-filled like D&T, the answer is frequently no for me.
Big reason why I've been packing COnfluence, Brass & Gemstone Mines in the deck with Coliseum.

How do he rest of you fare?

[Que]

So I went 6-2-1 IDing into Top 32 (I got 22th) at SCG Vegas. I was running the same list as before: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13503&iddeck=99201 With the only difference being the sb: Removal of the 1 Firestorm and 1 Pithing Needle and inclusion of 2 Faerie Macabre and replacing the 2 Tarnished Citadels with Mana Confluence. I'm not sure what the most efficient spread of our gold lands is supposed to be atm. lol. After this tournament I'm going to take a different approach to my sb. It really is all preference on how you want to deal with hate so will see.

Anyway I was just going to post brief anecdotes from throughout the day. :)

Round 1. Infect.
Game 1 I feel pretty confident after he dropped a turn 2 Ichorclaw Myr seeing as how I usually cabal therapy their action away and cruise to victory via horde of zombies. Anyway skip to his turn 3. He attacks with the Myr and I decide to block it with my lonely Narcomeoba which triggers its ability and gives its +2/+2, then he decides to cast Groundswell for the +4/+4, Mutagenic Growth, and then Berserk destroying me.... and onto Game 2.
G2: Zombie horde
G3: DR into Iona Naming Green.

1-0
Round 2. Burn
Game 1. I keep a modest hand capable of outgrinding any fair deck, however, I was met with fire (Vegas historically favors burn). My slow dredge plan was not going to go anywhere and I'm quickly dispatched turn 4 before I really get anything going. Side note: I lost quite a number of game 1s an inordinate amount of times this tournament...weird.. anyways.
G2: DR into Iona Naming Red
G3: DR into Iona Naming Red oh my! dat Angel thou!

2-0
Round 3. Death and Taxes
Game 1. I Draw the nuts and I only see a plains after he scoops it up in response to a Cabal Therapy.
(I pretty much put him on D & T anyway as the deck is pretty popular.)

G2: He mulls to 4 and I think I pretty much have it. I had a couple of Careful Study, LED, Coliseum and a Faithless however I didn't find a dredger off the first Study. He then casts a turn 2 Spirit of the Labyrinth which I and the deck normally don't care about - afterall we never really "draw" any cards - however in this case it was troublesome as I could not dig for extra cards with careful study or looting. At that point they were just terrible discard outlets lol. Anyway on my Turn 2 I draw a Troll or it might have been stinkweed. In any case I drop the Coliseum and chain dredges. At this point I have an Ichorid stocked graveyard for next turn, but only a Narcomoeba, 1 bridge, and 1 Therapy for the current turn. I don't Therapy on RIP with my reasoning being if he had the RIP he would have slammed it on his turn 2 instead of SoTL and I didn't want to lose the Narco, the Therapy, and only end up with a 2/2 to show for it (I was being too cautious to not use up too many resources). In the end he went ahead and slammed a Turn 3 RIP which he said he already had in hand the prior turn and didn't play it because I had nothing of interest in my GY. :/ In any case that was a blunder..

G3. I mull to 4 and get rolled after some unexciting dredges for a few turns.

2-1
Round 4: Miracles vs. Joe Lossett.
G1. Joe takes game 1 and He and I chuckle over how terrible my dredges were and how much I was bricking. I kept hitting my action too many turns apart allowing Joe to slowly pick off what I had in the form of Terminus, Plow, etc..
G2. RIP :(

2-2 At this point I'm out of top 8 contention, but the day isn't over yet and I came to make some money!
Round 5: Death and Taxes
G1. I Dredge roll em
G2. I Dredge roll em (He kept a solid 7, but no interaction)

3-2
Round 6: Merfolk
G1. He drops a Chalice of the Void on 1 on turn 2 which shuts off my Putrid Imp and Careful study. Luckily for me I had already dropped a dredger in my yard turn 1 and had a coliseum to follow up dredges with. I'm able to generate zombies to chump block his fish until I hit additional bridges allowing me to generate an absurd amount of them on the back of 4 Ichorids and eventually seal the game.
G2. He drops turn 1 Grafdigger's Cage, Turn 2 Chalice on 1 and its on to game 3.
G3. He doesn't have much interaction and I'm able to eventually DR an Iona on Blue to wrap things up.

4-2
Round 7: Burn (I made a small quip about hoping he'd be playing burn, but I don't think he thought it too funny and as it turns out thats what he was on. xD)
G1. I lose game 1 once again. The consistent turn 4 kill is more than enough to dispatch me. This is actually quite annoying.
G2. DR into Iona naming Red.
G3. DR into Iona naming Red. This game is hard.

5-2
Round 8: Splinter Twin (Yes you're reading that right. Splinter twin combo in legacy)
G1. I dredge roll em and he scoops up his cards before I get to see what hes playing.
G2. He casts Chalice on 1 which slows me down enough for him to hit Pestermite on turn 3 and then using a Sol land and 3 volcanics to cast Kikijiki for the infi attackers...
G3. I dredge roll em.

6-2 I made it!! After 8 rounds I'm sitting in 24th and I and my round 9 opponent decide to ID into Top 32 and prize out $100.
Round 9: U/W Tempo
ID

Final Record: 6-2-1 and I end up in 22nd Place.

The main deck still feels strong and it seems the most consistent, however, I feel the sb is always a work in progress as I try to find more effective means to combat hate.

[ottofromorbit]

Welp... Mull till I get at least one anti-hate hoping they mull into only one.
Side in 3-4 firestorm for elves goblins thalias ...and 3-4 natures claim drop led's n imps.
it's a gamble not knowing if they hit 2 peices of hate.
I would go unmask in place of firestorm vs creatureless.
There is a small measure of luck awarded to an experienced pilot. Tis the nature of magic.
13 lands can help grind out wins... Everyone has their own recipe.
This deck is still winning. Every opponent is flustered if they don't mull to the proper hate they sided which just wrecks their flow.
Don't just play the deck. remember how to side best "on the draw" and "on the play"
Watched this deck evolve since it was called ichorid and I used psychatogs.
FKZ made turn 1 kills doable and hilarious.
Yes, during your upkeep cast your cantrips, maintain priority then crack led floating 3 red with dredgers and faithless looting hitting the yard...pro.

[jake556]

I seen that the OP hasn't been updated in a while, I remember seeing an article somewhere about running Ichorid vs Bloodghast with the pros and cons of both. I didnt actually see mention of Bloodghast at all in the OP. I understand with Ichorid you need food and will need to run more black critters, as well as him being quite a beat stick. With Bloodghast the Dredge Lands/ Unidiscovered Paradise are usually used to make sure you make more lands drops to benefit the most. Bloodghast builds seem to run more lands and Sun Titan as a DR target which is pretty insane at what it can do getting back Lands for Ghast, LEDS for flashback, etc... Curious on peoples thought on theses 2 different builds and why they prefer 1 over the other.

[GingaNinja77]

I seen that the OP hasn't been updated in a while, I remember seeing an article somewhere about running Ichorid vs Bloodghast with the pros and cons of both. I didnt actually see mention of Bloodghast at all in the OP. I understand with Ichorid you need food and will need to run more black critters, as well as him being quite a beat stick. With Bloodghast the Dredge Lands/ Unidiscovered Paradise are usually used to make sure you make more lands drops to benefit the most. Bloodghast builds seem to run more lands and Sun Titan as a DR target which is pretty insane at what it can do getting back Lands for Ghast, LEDS for flashback, etc... Curious on peoples thought on theses 2 different builds and why they prefer 1 over the other.

Joe Lossett just 4-0'ed a MTGO daily with a bloodghast dredge deck on his stream last night.

[Michael Keller]

I seen that the OP hasn't been updated in a while, I remember seeing an article somewhere about running Ichorid vs Bloodghast with the pros and cons of both. I didnt actually see mention of Bloodghast at all in the OP. I understand with Ichorid you need food and will need to run more black critters, as well as him being quite a beat stick. With Bloodghast the Dredge Lands/ Unidiscovered Paradise are usually used to make sure you make more lands drops to benefit the most. Bloodghast builds seem to run more lands and Sun Titan as a DR target which is pretty insane at what it can do getting back Lands for Ghast, LEDS for flashback, etc... Curious on peoples thought on theses 2 different builds and why they prefer 1 over the other.

I can brush up the OP if you guys would like.

[jake556]

I can brush up the OP if you guys would like.

I appreciate you taking the time to do that, I look forward to it.

[jimmythegreek]

I seen that the OP hasn't been updated in a while, I remember seeing an article somewhere about running Ichorid vs Bloodghast with the pros and cons of both. I didnt actually see mention of Bloodghast at all in the OP. I understand with Ichorid you need food and will need to run more black critters, as well as him being quite a beat stick. With Bloodghast the Dredge Lands/ Unidiscovered Paradise are usually used to make sure you make more lands drops to benefit the most. Bloodghast builds seem to run more lands and Sun Titan as a DR target which is pretty insane at what it can do getting back Lands for Ghast, LEDS for flashback, etc... Curious on peoples thought on theses 2 different builds and why they prefer 1 over the other.

One aspect on being pro ichorid is that he dies at the end of every turn hence creating zombies due to bridge from below. The zombies created this way facilitate a better combo and aggro plan imho. Sometimes its totally worth trading an ichorid and some bridges for a bunch of 2/2s and bridges to kill them on the swing back....bloodghast doesnt allow that. I would be interested on hearing some pros of the vampire spirit just for thought, for me personally, ichorid is just too creepy to cut.

[ESG]

I would be interested on hearing some pros of the vampire spirit just for thought, for me personally, ichorid is just too creepy to cut.

I have tried a number of Dredge lists over the years. I find that I often prefer running Bloodghast in addition to Ichorid. Bloodghast is overall inferior but has a few advantages:

* You have more control over when Bloodghast comes into play. With Ichorid, he has to enter play in your upkeep, which commonly results in the first one eating a Swords to Plowshares. With Bloodghast, you can play your land, return Bloodghast to play, hold priority, and sac him to Cabal Therapy to strip all copies of STP.

* Bloodghast can give you two sacrifices on the same turn when you don't have any Bridges. With Ichorid, once he's gone, you have to wait a turn to bring him back out. If you start the turn with a Bloodghast, you can dredge into a Therapy (and potentially another Bloodghast), hit your opponent's Force of Will, then play a land, bring back your one or two (or more) Bloodghasts and often Dread Return right away. When you play more lands, and especially Undiscovered Paradise, you'll be able to exploit Bloodghast's ability more. Having Bloodghast in addition to Ichorid makes flashing back Dread Return a lot easier.

* This isn't a point for Bloodghast being better, but running Bloodghasts diversifies your threats and helps guard against losing to Surgical Extraction. Nether Shadow or Ashen Ghoul perform the same function. I find Bloodghast to be a better fit in Dredge decks with mana than I do Nether Shadow or Ashen Ghoul. There isn't enough space in the list to run more creatures (to turn on Nether Shadow and Ashen Ghoul) and more land (to turn on Bloodghast), so you have to choose one strategy or the other.

Certainly there are different lines of play and different strategies available depending on your maindeck and sideboard construction.

There's still too much graveyard hate in my area for me to play Dredge in any form, but if it ever subsides, I will happily return to making zombies for fun and profit.

[drude1]

I've played both extensively. I always used to play bloodghast in combo heavy versions because he was a turn faster. You never get ichorid until the turn after he hits the yard. With bloodghast you get him the same turn he hits the yard and therefore you can often combo out that turn. Also as mentioned above, you can get him into play multiple times in one turn with sun Titan and/or fetch lands. Having said that, I've been playing ichorids for a while now just because I don't love undiscovered paradise or the dredge lands.


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[Que]

I want to pick your brains.

What kind of Sbs do you guys currently run?
What Dredge configuration are you running?
What sb cards are most effective? Why?


I'm beginning to think the sideboards are pretty much preferential tech.

[Juicy Karaage]

Call me crazy but for months, I've been brewing a beat down plan using Delver AND DRS to negate Grafdigger's Cage and DRS himself. Yeah, fight fire with fire

[Vandalize]

I've been using LED Dredge but replaced PImp with Street Wraiths (mainly to deal with Deathrite Shaman). You just need to respond the first DRS activation, and you'll be fine.

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 City of Brass
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Street Wraith
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough

SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 2 Ingor Chewer
SB: 2 Dread Return
SB: 1 Griselbrand
SB: 1 Flame-kin Zealot
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Ray of Revelation

My plan against Grafdigger's Cage is Ingot Chewer. Pretty bad and slow, but it has been working. You can still Dredge with Cage online, so just find an Ingot Chewer, cast Golgari Thug to block and put Chewer back on top, then you destroy Cage and profit (?).

Against RIP, just pray that you can Cabal Therapy it away before it drops, or have at least 5~6 tokens in the field already.

[slave]

I want to pick your brains.

What kind of Sbs do you guys currently run?
What Dredge configuration are you running?
What sb cards are most effective? Why?


I'm beginning to think the sideboards are pretty much preferential tech.
I've been trying out some transformational sides, like Dark Depths/Hexmage with a few Dakmor Salvage for consistency, or Painted Stone combo.
But really, the only constant cards that have been consistent, and have been in my side for any length of time, has been Firestorm & some ench/art. removal in Claims/Decay's.
For the mirror or other grave decks, I favour Faerie Macabre as it's busy fuckin Icky when you're not looking, it's uncounterable and instant-speed, and you can target multiple graves at the same time to not only protect something from extraction, but also get rid of something elsewhere.

Dredge config currently is 14 mana sources, close to Quad-list except I've been running some 2 Dread Returns with a single Super-G.

Firestorm is an all-star of course.
Abrupt Decay is pretty effective at dealing with problems, and running more mana sources to support it is worth it in my mind.
Other than those two, I've found most other options to be situational.

[Que]

I've been trying out some transformational sides, like Dark Depths/Hexmage with a few Dakmor Salvage for consistency, or Painted Stone combo.
But really, the only constant cards that have been consistent, and have been in my side for any length of time, has been Firestorm & some ench/art. removal in Claims/Decay's.
For the mirror or other grave decks, I favour Faerie Macabre as it's busy fuckin Icky when you're not looking, it's uncounterable and instant-speed, and you can target multiple graves at the same time to not only protect something from extraction, but also get rid of something elsewhere.

Dredge config currently is 14 mana sources, close to Quad-list except I've been running some 2 Dread Returns with a single Super-G.

Firestorm is an all-star of course.
Abrupt Decay is pretty effective at dealing with problems, and running more mana sources to support it is worth it in my mind.
Other than those two, I've found most other options to be situational.

Yeah the painted stone combo has always crossed my mind, however, the necessity of having to run more lands (which means hitting more blanks while dredging) turned me away. Not to mention that some cards like Bolt, Plow, and other types of removal which can be effective in some fashion against dredge would still be relevant against the painter combo.

I normally shy'd away from Firestorm as a SB card, because I was never all too impressed with the card. However, because of decks like BUG Delver and RUG Delver, having the ability to bin Dredgers without fear of countermagic is a plus. Regardless of what people's perception of the deck are we do need to resolve multiple spells i.e. careful study, faithless looting, and LED - all spells that get your engine started. imo slow dredging is playing to lose unless you're on manaless dredge. That is part of the reason I've actually dropped Breakthrough and have replaced it with Street Wraith (great against counter magic, great against Surgical Extraction, and great against DRS activations).

[Vandalize]

That is part of the reason I've actually dropped Breakthrough and have replaced it with Street Wraith (great against counter magic, great against Surgical Extraction, and great against DRS activations).

Try replacing PImps for Street Wraith. Keeps Ichorid fed and keeps Breakthrough for those explosive starts. The only downside is that your DDD rate for turn 1 will increase a bit.

PImp is the weakest slot maindeck, probably. I've only missed it once after the cut, when I bricked on dreding any Narcomoebas in 30 cards, didn't have a body to flashback Therapy and my foe had Rest in Peace waiting for next turn.

[oracL3]

hi guys, i'm playing dredge from about 3 months, so now i want give my contribute to the thread. Last night i went to play in a small local tournament and i presented this list:
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
1 Griselbrand
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 Firestorm
SB: 1 Flame-Kin Zealot

Turn 1 vs Merefolk (2-0). G1 pretty easy. G2 i sided out 1 breakthrought, 1 flayer, 1 dread return 1 thug for 1 FKZ 3claim. he sided in 2 cage 2 relic of progenitus, but didn't see anythin during the game, so another easy victory.
Turn 2 vs Jund (0-2). G1 on draw, i keep and hand with 1city 1careful 1 coliseum 1 troll and other stuff. He started with thougtseize on my study, i waited to have 8 cards for discarging troll, when i play city he waste it and so i go very slowly so he win with tarmogoyf and other stuff. G2 , i mulled to 4 but nothing so easy game for him.
Turn 3 vs WB deck(2-1). G1 win on second turn. G2 out 2 ichorids 1 thug in 3 claims. I started slowly and i played RIP, so i lost. G3, i keep an hand with 1coliseum 4gold lands 1 therapy 1 carefull study. Turn 1, city in therapy, named RIP he got 1. He thougtseized my study, i draw troll and after breaktrought, so i go off using coliseum.
Turn 4 we decided to draw (with 7 points we were in top8).
Top 8 vs MUD (2-1). G1 on the draw. Oppo played chalice of the void with 1 counter on first turn, on my first turn discarded troll to start dredging. On second and third turn oppo played trinisphere and kuldotha forgemaster. I thought that i could never win in this situation, but thanks to ichorids and dredging i get a lot of tokes, so i keep attacking each turn until i win. G2 out flayer, 1 breaktrhougt, 1 dread return 1 carefull study, in 2 grudge 2 claim. He played chalice of the void, i had a slow stard and lost. G3 out 1 grudge 2 claim, in 1dread return 1 breakthrought 1 study for going of on first turn. I take an hand with 2 LED 2 coliseum 1 breakthrought 1 city 1 narco. First turn, i tryed to go off so i played led, led, coliseum in breakthrought, and i draw 1FL 1Throll, so led in Loth i dredged another FL so break the second led for another 12 cards dredges. i get 2 narco 2 therapyes, so i stripped his tormod's crypt. I win again with ichorids and tokens.
In top 4 we splitted the reward.

In my opinion, i felt very comfortable with this build during all the tournament because all my first hand were good enough for going off very quickly. Thanks to all.

[Que]

Hi All, I recently got Top 8 at the MTG Deals Legacy Open (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28373-5000-00-Tournament-Weekend-40-Dual-Land-Legacy-Tournament-MTG-Deals-Los-Angeles) which rounded up around 90-95 players. There were sets of 4 duals to be shelled out to top 8 with more prizes extended to top 16.

I was running the exact same list as before: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13503&iddeck=99201
- The only difference being -1 Pithing Needle, +1 Firestorm bumping it up to 2.

My recollection is a bit fuzzy. Note to self I should jot down some notes. :/

Round 1: Deadguy Ale
G1: Dredge Ball
G2: He played a plains and passed on his turn 1. On my turn I open with LED, Faithless looting cast and without passing priority cracked the LED for 3 Red mana. I bin a couple of stinkweed Imps and proceed to hit Trolls for deeper dredges. I end with a bridge or two alongside a Narcomoeba and a Therapy I ultimately use to strip away the RIP he was waiting to cast on his turn 2. Without the RIP to contend with I'm able to steal the game.
2-0
Round 2: 12 Post
G1: Dredge Ball. He actually scoops in response to a Therapy so I don't actually know what hes on before Game 2.
G2: I don't see any interaction outside of a couple of flusterstorms for a careful study and something else I can't remember. Other than that I'm able to build a board presence on the back of Ichorid recursion and end up taking the game.
2-0
Round 3: Shardless BUG
G1. I see a turn 1 DRS. I actually go to my end step and discard a troll. On his turn he goes to try and eat my only dredger and in response to his activation I cycle street wraith and fizzle it. I cast a couple of draw spells to make the DRS unable to keep up after a few turns.
G2. I don't see any interaction.
2-0
Round 4: RUG Delver
G1: Dredge ball
G2. He mulls to 6 and keeps. Doesn't play a land and passes it back to me to my surprise. At this point I'm thinking he must have Surgical extraction. I actually open with a Therapy but not on him, but on myself as I was holding two Stinkweed Imps and a pair of Street Wraith that would beat his Surgical on any dredgers. He never draws a land. he does surgical away my bridges, but without the ability to cast any spells I pretty much had free reign to cast my own without fear of countermagic and a few Ichorid beats get the job done.
2-0
Round 5: U/R Delver
G1: This is an interesting game. I had to mull to 5 and it consisted of Putrid Imp, 2x Bridge, Ichorid, land. He opens with Delver of secrets which makes me think he has a Daze or FOW. I draw a land on my turn and decide it best to wait a turn to drop the Imp to avoid Daze (I figure I can take a couple of Delver beats). He then drops a Goblin Guide which reveals a Golgari Grave Troll. At least I know a dredger is coming. I take the 5 after his delver is flipped off the back of a cast Brainstorm. On my turn I draw the dredger play my second land and drop the imp which resolves. When he attacks again he reveals a Street Wraith off the top off the GG trigger. I decide to block the Delver with my putrid imp and before damage is dealt I discard the Troll, 2x Bridge, and the Ichorid which nets me 2 2/2s on his turn. On my upkeep I return the Ichorid after exiling my Putrid Imp and decide to draw the Stree Wraith and Cycle it to Dredge the Troll which allows me to hit a Narcomoeba! I bash in for 7 then pass it back, but not before netting another 2 2/2s off my dead ichorid. He decides to attack with Delver (a mistake he mentions later) and I simply block with my Narco to Net me yet another 2 2/2s. Eventually Ichorid recursion and zombie beats get me there! I'm able to steal the game.
G2. I Dredge ball and he doesn't have interaction for my GY shenanigans.
2-0
Round 6: Deathblade ID
Round 7: Aggro Loam ID

Final Record: 5-0-2

Top 8:
We do not come to a consensus with regards to splitting the duals so we have to play an additional round. This meant that I would either end up with 4 blue duals or 4 non blue duals... a pretty big value difference. Anyway we continue on and I'm seeded 7th going up against a matchup I'm never particularly excited to play against. Not the worst, but not a walk in the park either.

Round 1: U/W/R Miracles
G1. Its a bit of a drawn out affair as he hits a couple of Terminus, however, I'm very conservative this game and I only recurred 1 Ichorid at a time to net me zombies. I was just beating down with zombies until he was forced to Terminus. Then I would recur the 1 Ichorid again and generate more zombies that he had to deal with. In this matchup its important to not overextend the Ichorids into a Terminus as they're your best threat cause once its bottom'd your only chances are Narcos...
G2. He gets flooded with Tops and never finds the RIP to adequately interact.
2-0

Top 4: Split a set of 4 blue duals!

Props:
-MTG deals for hosting
-Not dropping a single game
-Mutual friends in the top 8
-4 blue duals

[Lt. Quattro]

Hi All, I recently got Top 8 at the MTG Deals Legacy Open (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28373-5000-00-Tournament-Weekend-40-Dual-Land-Legacy-Tournament-MTG-Deals-Los-Angeles) which rounded up around 90-95 players. There were sets of 4 duals to be shelled out to top 8 with more prizes extended to top 16.

I was running the exact same list as before: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13503&iddeck=99201
- The only difference being -1 Pithing Needle, +1 Firestorm bumping it up to 2.

My recollection is a bit fuzzy. Note to self I should jot down some notes. :/

Round 1: Deadguy Ale
G1: Dredge Ball
G2: He played a plains and passed on his turn 1. On my turn I open with LED, Faithless looting cast and without passing priority cracked the LED for 3 Red mana. I bin a couple of stinkweed Imps and proceed to hit Trolls for deeper dredges. I end with a bridge or two alongside a Narcomoeba and a Therapy I ultimately use to strip away the RIP he was waiting to cast on his turn 2. Without the RIP to contend with I'm able to steal the game.
2-0
Round 2: 12 Post
G1: Dredge Ball. He actually scoops in response to a Therapy so I don't actually know what hes on before Game 2.
G2: I don't see any interaction outside of a couple of flusterstorms for a careful study and something else I can't remember. Other than that I'm able to build a board presence on the back of Ichorid recursion and end up taking the game.
2-0
Round 3: Shardless BUG
G1. I see a turn 1 DRS. I actually go to my end step and discard a troll. On his turn he goes to try and eat my only dredger and in response to his activation I cycle street wraith and fizzle it. I cast a couple of draw spells to make the DRS unable to keep up after a few turns.
G2. I don't see any interaction.
2-0
Round 4: RUG Delver
G1: Dredge ball
G2. He mulls to 6 and keeps. Doesn't play a land and passes it back to me to my surprise. At this point I'm thinking he must have Surgical extraction. I actually open with a Therapy but not on him, but on myself as I was holding two Stinkweed Imps and a pair of Street Wraith that would beat his Surgical on any dredgers. He never draws a land. he does surgical away my bridges, but without the ability to cast any spells I pretty much had free reign to cast my own without fear of countermagic and a few Ichorid beats get the job done.
2-0
Round 5: U/R Delver
G1: This is an interesting game. I had to mull to 5 and it consisted of Putrid Imp, 2x Bridge, Ichorid, land. He opens with Delver of secrets which makes me think he has a Daze or FOW. I draw a land on my turn and decide it best to wait a turn to drop the Imp to avoid Daze (I figure I can take a couple of Delver beats). He then drops a Goblin Guide which reveals a Golgari Grave Troll. At least I know a dredger is coming. I take the 5 after his delver is flipped off the back of a cast Brainstorm. On my turn I draw the dredger play my second land and drop the imp which resolves. When he attacks again he reveals a Street Wraith off the top off the GG trigger. I decide to block the Delver with my putrid imp and before damage is dealt I discard the Troll, 2x Bridge, and the Ichorid which nets me 2 2/2s on his turn. On my upkeep I return the Ichorid after exiling my Putrid Imp and decide to draw the Stree Wraith and Cycle it to Dredge the Troll which allows me to hit a Narcomoeba! I bash in for 7 then pass it back, but not before netting another 2 2/2s off my dead ichorid. He decides to attack with Delver (a mistake he mentions later) and I simply block with my Narco to Net me yet another 2 2/2s. Eventually Ichorid recursion and zombie beats get me there! I'm able to steal the game.
G2. I Dredge ball and he doesn't have interaction for my GY shenanigans.
2-0
Round 6: Deathblade ID
Round 7: Aggro Loam ID

Final Record: 5-0-2

Top 8:
We do not come to a consensus with regards to splitting the duals so we have to play an additional round. This meant that I would either end up with 4 blue duals or 4 non blue duals... a pretty big value difference. Anyway we continue on and I'm seeded 7th going up against a matchup I'm never particularly excited to play against. Not the worst, but not a walk in the park either.

Round 1: U/W/R Miracles
G1. Its a bit of a drawn out affair as he hits a couple of Terminus, however, I'm very conservative this game and I only recurred 1 Ichorid at a time to net me zombies. I was just beating down with zombies until he was forced to Terminus. Then I would recur the 1 Ichorid again and generate more zombies that he had to deal with. In this matchup its important to not overextend the Ichorids into a Terminus as they're your best threat cause once its bottom'd your only chances are Narcos...
G2. He gets flooded with Tops and never finds the RIP to adequately interact.
2-0

Top 4: Split a set of 4 blue duals!

Props:
-MTG deals for hosting
-Not dropping a single game
-Mutual friends in the top 8
-4 blue duals

Do you remember how you sided when you played against miracles?

[Que]

Do you remember how you sided when you played against miracles?

For this matchup I believe I took out the 3 Putrid Imp and brought in the 3 Wispmare. They help get around Spell Pierce and Counterbalance. In this case he never drew the RIP to make it matter, but I always feel better having it as an out.

As a general rule I try to not bring in too many cards. When you think about it most individuals are not boarding in cards to counter their opponents board cards. But that is exactly what were trying to do Game 2 most of the time. I would rather still be able to "go off" with a powerful draw then get flooded with Wispmare when they don't have hate. As a dredge player you're hedging that the chances that they'll see 1 of their 2 RIP will take longer than you building up a relevant board presence to make the card mute. But again because you're boarding in the 3 Wispmare it means you're not completely cold to the card.