[Deck] Dredge

[ottofromorbit]

Great reports guys. Allows us to study the meta without playing. We can learn from each other experience. I like the balls out led crack / looting on turn one hitting narcs into therapy to strip a rip before its played. I'm thinking sb in 2 deep anals and keep LEDs in maybe 2-3 petals to increase the odds of this early opportunity. Unmask is good but, removing ichorid food for it, I didn't like.

[Que]

Great reports guys. Allows us to study the meta without playing. We can learn from each other experience. I like the balls out led crack / looting on turn one hitting narcs into therapy to strip a rip before its played. I'm thinking sb in 2 deep anals and keep LEDs in maybe 2-3 petals to increase the odds of this early opportunity. Unmask is good but, removing ichorid food for it, I didn't like.

I will admit I took a chance, but I figure with decks like Deadguy that you know do not play FOW sometimes you have to mulligan aggressively. Playing slower is only benefiting your opponent.

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

hi guys, i'm playing dredge from about 3 months, so now i want give my contribute to the thread. Last night i went to play in a small local tournament and i presented this list:
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
1 Griselbrand
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 Firestorm
SB: 1 Flame-Kin Zealot

Turn 1 vs Merefolk (2-0). G1 pretty easy. G2 i sided out 1 breakthrought, 1 flayer, 1 dread return 1 thug for 1 FKZ 3claim. he sided in 2 cage 2 relic of progenitus, but didn't see anythin during the game, so another easy victory.
Turn 2 vs Jund (0-2). G1 on draw, i keep and hand with 1city 1careful 1 coliseum 1 troll and other stuff. He started with thougtseize on my study, i waited to have 8 cards for discarging troll, when i play city he waste it and so i go very slowly so he win with tarmogoyf and other stuff. G2 , i mulled to 4 but nothing so easy game for him.
Turn 3 vs WB deck(2-1). G1 win on second turn. G2 out 2 ichorids 1 thug in 3 claims. I started slowly and i played RIP, so i lost. G3, i keep an hand with 1coliseum 4gold lands 1 therapy 1 carefull study. Turn 1, city in therapy, named RIP he got 1. He thougtseized my study, i draw troll and after breaktrought, so i go off using coliseum.
Turn 4 we decided to draw (with 7 points we were in top8).
Top 8 vs MUD (2-1). G1 on the draw. Oppo played chalice of the void with 1 counter on first turn, on my first turn discarded troll to start dredging. On second and third turn oppo played trinisphere and kuldotha forgemaster. I thought that i could never win in this situation, but thanks to ichorids and dredging i get a lot of tokes, so i keep attacking each turn until i win. G2 out flayer, 1 breaktrhougt, 1 dread return 1 carefull study, in 2 grudge 2 claim. He played chalice of the void, i had a slow stard and lost. G3 out 1 grudge 2 claim, in 1dread return 1 breakthrought 1 study for going of on first turn. I take an hand with 2 LED 2 coliseum 1 breakthrought 1 city 1 narco. First turn, i tryed to go off so i played led, led, coliseum in breakthrought, and i draw 1FL 1Throll, so led in Loth i dredged another FL so break the second led for another 12 cards dredges. i get 2 narco 2 therapyes, so i stripped his tormod's crypt. I win again with ichorids and tokens.
In top 4 we splitted the reward.

In my opinion, i felt very comfortable with this build during all the tournament because all my first hand were good enough for going off very quickly. Thanks to all.
I'm the guy that played MUD in top 8 who was defeated by oracl3. I'm a dredge player too. Can anyone tell him that remove dredges from g2 is the worst choice? :tongue:
Now, a sideboarding question: if you have 2 Chain of Vapor, 1 Darkblast and 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite in your sideboard, and a maindeck like oracl3's list except for the Flame-Kin Zealot (instead of Flayer of the Hatebound) and a second Griselbrand (instead of a Golgari Thug), how would you side?

[slave]

....and brought in the 3 Wispmare. They help get around Spell Pierce and Counterbalance.
Forgive me for sounding a little perplexed here, but why Wispmare?
I get that it can take care of RIP, but it's flaccid to Leyline of the Void.
Are you running answers to Cage aswell?

I've been playing around with a 3-of either Annul or Swan Song lately > still not convinced they're all that against decks that can run counter, as I generally don't leave any mana open! Any of the rest of you tested or played it?

[DarkJester]

Forgive me for sounding a little perplexed here, but why Wispmare?
I get that it can take care of RIP, but it's flaccid to Leyline of the Void.




Why is it flaccid to LotV? It takes care of it pretty well. I play with 1 or 2 Wispmares in addition to claims from time to time to overload the RiP-Player with answers. It works especially against Miracles which has a nearly nonexisting clock and the matchup can get a little bit grindier.

[slave]

Why is it flaccid to LotV? It takes care of it pretty well. I play with 1 or 2 Wispmares in addition to claims from time to time to overload the RiP-Player with answers. It works especially against Miracles which has a nearly nonexisting clock and the matchup can get a little bit grindier.
For Wispmare to work against LoTV on Turn-zero, you need 3 mana. Not exactly likely.....
I'm not saying Wispmare is necessarily a bad choice, but I feel since Void almost always hits on T0, you need a 1-mana or 2 mana-at-most option to deal with it, considering our small manabase and vulnerability to Wasteland.
Considering the main 3 threats I usually deal with are Cage, LoTV and RiP > Wispmare seems to only deal with one of them well.

[drude1]

For Wispmare to work against LoTV on Turn-zero, you need 3 mana. Not exactly likely.....
I'm not saying Wispmare is necessarily a bad choice, but I feel since Void almost always hits on T0, you need a 1-mana or 2 mana-at-most option to deal with it, considering our small manabase and vulnerability to Wasteland.
Considering the main 3 threats I usually deal with are Cage, LoTV and RiP > Wispmare seems to only deal with one of them well.

I don't understand this post. Why do you need three mana exactly?

[Que]

^ What he said.


Anyway I got wrenched at my last tournament despite feeling pretty good after last weekend's win. Can't win them all as they say!

Went 1-3 drop..

The losses were as follows:
Round 2 against Imperial Painter. Game 1 I dredged through a good portion of my deck and despite only having hit 1 bridge felt in position to win a couple of turns later as my opponent's only form of action was a single top in play (I had therapied away 2x Imperial Recruiters and only left him with lands). On his turn he draws and activates top to then find an Ensnaring Bridge! He slams it and I'm pretty much boned from this spot as I have no maindeck answers to the bridge. I felt pretty deflated losing that way, but it happens.
Game 2 I keep a "turn 1" kill and proceed to DR into Iona backed by zombies. I tried to get cute with Iona thinking if I dread Return it while Painter was in play I could potentially lock him out of casting anymore spells.
On game 3 I kept a strong hand. This game I decided on not boarding in the Wispmare, the reason being that I can't interact with his combo as it is and I would rather try to blow the game wide open ala game2. Anyway on the play my opponent fetches up a plateau and knowing I don't have my Wispmares and that he most likely has the Enlightened tutor at the ready I decide to just go for it. I'm thinking of trying to establish some type of board position that would not care about the RIP. I actually end up bricking on a dredge and hit no bridges and no narcos. I do however get 3 of my Ichorids with a lot of food only to be blown out by the now confirmed E. Tutor into RIP..

Round 3 against Dark Maverick or might have been JUNK.
Game 1 I dredged a bunch of stuffs.
Game 2. He opens with an Inquisition of Kozilek which takes my LED. On my turn I cast the Careful I was holding and bin two dredgers. On his turn he drops a DRS and a Cage and I just decide to pack it up. That was brutal. ;__;
Game 3. Similar to Game 3 against painter I attempt to go for it and brick on a dredge and hit mediocre stock. He has the E. Tutor for RIP and I try to cast 3 back to back Narcos while he had no creatures and got him down to 10 before he drew a Mirran Crusader and equipped a SoFI to it lol.

Round 4 against Deathblade
Game 1. I dredged a bunch of stuffs.
Game 2. Surgical Extraction Ichorid, Snapcaster Surgical extraction Bridge from below..
Game 3. Surgical Extraction Ichorid, Snapcaster Surgical extraction Bridge from below..

There might have been a DRS in that matchup I don't remember

I didn't hit particularly relevant cards early in the matchups I lost. My dredges were a bit subpar, but that's the variance we face.

[ottofromorbit]

Sometimes they hit their hate sometimes they miss. Just like us.
I've seen abrupt decay in a few sideboards. Is this working?
Do we side extra mana source to help? are we dropping led for petals g2-3?
Just wondering the success of it vs ctrl decks dredge hate

[FrabjousDaze]

For Wispmare to work against LoTV on Turn-zero, you need 3 mana. Not exactly likely.....
I'm not saying Wispmare is necessarily a bad choice, but I feel since Void almost always hits on T0, you need a 1-mana or 2 mana-at-most option to deal with it, considering our small manabase and vulnerability to Wasteland.
Considering the main 3 threats I usually deal with are Cage, LoTV and RiP > Wispmare seems to only deal with one of them well.

Wispmare is 1 mana. It has: "Evoke {W} (You may cast this spell for its evoke cost. If you do, it's sacrificed when it enters the battlefield.)" Evoke means that you still get the destroy target enchantment ability, and additionally trigger any bridges in your graveyard since it sac's itself, if somehow you have them there. Now it still won't deal with Cage, since that is an artifact, but Ingot Chewer can do that.

On that subject, I've got a question for all of you. I've been playing the same main deck that Drew Tunison played at GP DC with 2x Griselbrand and 1x FKZ. I've currently been playing 3x Chain of Vapor in my SB as my anti hate, since I'd rather not dilute the deck anymore than I have to and that card deals with everything short of Surgical. I don't currently play lands or petal in the SB.

So, how do you guys deal with Chalice of the Void on 1?

I can see playing abrupt decay, since that has the additional value of blanking chalice on 2 (I think that is how that works), and I've had Ingot Chewer recommended to me since it is 5 mana on the stack (is that correct?) but is still 1 mana like Wispmare and so it jumps around spell pierce, counterbalance, and chalice, which Chain and Claim do not. Has anyone had success playing abrupt decay + lands/petal in the more combo oriented builds? Or should I look to Ingot Chewer and Wispmare?

[DarkJester]

Wispmare is 1 mana. It has: "Evoke {W} (You may cast this spell for its evoke cost. If you do, it's sacrificed when it enters the battlefield.)" Evoke means that you still get the destroy target enchantment ability, and additionally trigger any bridges in your graveyard since it sac's itself, if somehow you have them there. Now it still won't deal with Cage, since that is an artifact, but Ingot Chewer can do that.

On that subject, I've got a question for all of you. I've been playing the same main deck that Drew Tunison played at GP DC with 2x Griselbrand and 1x FKZ. I've currently been playing 3x Chain of Vapor in my SB as my anti hate, since I'd rather not dilute the deck anymore than I have to and that card deals with everything short of Surgical. I don't currently play lands or petal in the SB.

So, how do you guys deal with Chalice of the Void on 1?

I can see playing abrupt decay, since that has the additional value of blanking chalice on 2 (I think that is how that works), and I've had Ingot Chewer recommended to me since it is 5 mana on the stack (is that correct?) but is still 1 mana like Wispmare and so it jumps around spell pierce, counterbalance, and chalice, which Chain and Claim do not. Has anyone had success playing abrupt decay + lands/petal in the more combo oriented builds? Or should I look to Ingot Chewer and Wispmare?

Tested lots of games against a friend with the BoM-Loam-List (LotV and Chalice). Just playing postboard-matches, but this is a real beating. Luckily, I rarely see Chalices in tournaments (especially combined with LotV). If, then maybe Chewers may do their dirty work. Especially without additional lands from the board or Petals Decay might be to unreliable to cast.
Yes, Chewer will make it's way through a Chalice on 1 and Decay will not get countered by a Chalice on 2.:cool:

Edit: If a slow deck plays Chalice, DDD might also work, but nowadays DDD is rarely an option because most Legacy-Decks aren't "Slow"

[Daize]

Hi guys!

This might sound a bit ignorant, but: why is Careful Study better than Breakthrough? Drawing 2 more, discarding a lot more? I've just been trying this deck out a bit, and I'm sure there's a simple answer.

[ottofromorbit]

Hi guys!

This might sound a bit ignorant, but: why is Careful Study better than Breakthrough? Drawing 2 more, discarding a lot more? I've just been trying this deck out a bit, and I'm sure there's a simple answer.

It seems to be a matter of safe controlled gameplay for less reckless players. I'm a big fan of tolarian winds, winds of change, So 4 breakthrough, balls out, is my style. I rarely get interrupted or brick on dredgers with good mulligans, so T1 T2 wins happen way more for me. The idea is not too blow your hand out into the yard turn 1-2 leaving no options after a crop rotation bojuka bog hits or tormods crypt then *poof it's all gone and left looking like a chump. Since RIP and ooze hit the scene, it's more important to hold back and calculate the moment to pounce. Tolarian is just hard to resist.., like a Griselbrand in the hand. Should prolly run petals for this "turbo" style devil may care" build. But speaking as a proper dredge player; it's very irresponsible ;)

[JPoJohnson]

Based on how often manaless is doing well in opens, I would say DDD does better than you're giving credit, but street wraith i personally think helps smooth those moments.

[DarkJester]

Based on how often manaless is doing well in opens, I would say DDD does better than you're giving credit, but street wraith i personally think helps smooth those moments.
You're absolutely right here. That's one of the reasons why I play Wraiths in LED-Dredge atm.

Btw: It's not an exactly fair comparison between Manaless and LED, cause Manaless has far more gy-interactions and fewer dead weight, aka useless dredges.

[Daize]

Darkjester, that's exactly what I felt when trying out some Cockatrice LED dredge. I honestly felt like so many useless cards hit the graveyard :D. I'm probably not playing it properly.

Ottofromorbit - thanks for the elaborate reaction. So if I get it correctly, the idea is that LED dredge focuses practically solely on Bridge from Below, but can be more explosive than Manaless and can also hold back more without much of a drawback?

Gods I guess I should really see some other people playing it, if there's footage like that around.

[easysantiago]

Darkjester, that's exactly what I felt when trying out some Cockatrice LED dredge. I honestly felt like so many useless cards hit the graveyard :D. I'm probably not playing it properly.

Ottofromorbit - thanks for the elaborate reaction. So if I get it correctly, the idea is that LED dredge focuses practically solely on Bridge from Below, but can be more explosive than Manaless and can also hold back more without much of a drawback?

Gods I guess I should really see some other people playing it, if there's footage like that around.

I am not sure if I follow that either.

[ottofromorbit]

Yeah I've played manaless. I found both are very fast. I've played vs manaless and it's 50-50. I can't seem to be consistent..k sur, mull til you have lotv but where's the fun in that.
Just appreciate the opportunities proper dredge offers when facing specific hate and can't live without my firestorms and colliseums. Fav cards in the deck

[HammafistRoob]

No. Since discarding your hand is part of the activation cost, it only happens once.

I'm also not sure how you flashbacked a Therapy when your opponent had a RiP in play.

[Vandalize]

I dont experience this moment to often but I think it's similar to a belcher casting burning wish and cracking led Situation:
Opp played rip
Wraith in hand
Therapy and wispmare in grave
Golgari thug, led and 2 city of brass in play

Resolve therapy Sac thug.
Topdeck wispmare
Maintain priority
Crack led for 3 white
Maintain priority
Cycle wraith, wispmare in hand..
Led still in stack would have it discarded.
Or no?

You can't respond LED crack by maintaining priority. The discard part, as Hammafist said, is part of activation cost. In this case, you should Cycle Street Wraith and then respond by cracking LED.

The line of play would be this: After your Draw Phase, maintain priority while moving to Main Phase, so you can use the Therapy in your graveyard without fear of Swords to Plowshares (for example). After you Therapy, Golgari Thug triggers, putting Wispmare on top. Therapy resolves, you name a card. Then you cycle Street Wraith, and respond this ability by cracking LED. You discard your hand, add WWW to the mana pool, Street Wraith ability triggers, you draw Wispmare. Then, use the mana to cast Wispmare.

Either way, I don't know how you can Therapy in your opponent's turn main phase (when he plays RiP).

[Darklingske]

I dont experience this moment to often but I think it's similar to a belcher casting burning wish and cracking led Situation:
Opp played rip
Wraith in hand
Therapy and wispmare in grave
Golgari thug, led and 2 city of brass in play

Resolve therapy Sac thug.
Topdeck wispmare
Maintain priority
Crack led for 3 white
Maintain priority
Cycle wraith, wispmare in hand..
Led still in stack would have it discarded.
Or no?
The moment your opponent plays the RiP and it enters the BF, your GY is exiled and thus useless, hence rendering your whole thoughtprocess mute. And since RiP exiles everything that would go to the GY, your Thugtrigger never happens.

[ottofromorbit]

good lord* i thought i cleared that text... i was wondering about triggers but thinking if RIP in grave , nothing doing with that fangled combo. i deleted my texting...but it got posted somehow.:rolleyes:

[Michael Keller]

Definitely looking to be rocking the Dredge again, baby!

[Vandalize]

Definitely looking to be rocking the Dredge again, baby!

Great news! What list will you run?

[Jankwolf]

Great news! What list will you run?


The list that he tries for a month before quitting it again :-p

[Michael Keller]

I'm looking to probably run an LED-based list...

With lands.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Obviously depends on what tournament you're attending, but if it's an SCG, I would recommend manaless. There's so much delver doing well right now and manaless just laughs at those decks.

[Dice_Box]

Or run Firestorm main.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Or run Firestorm main.

Four Firestorm in this deck compared to the overall advantage manaless has isn't comparable. Soft counters are really bad for dredge and there's so many spell pierces and dazes at an SCG open right now. It all depends on where you're taking the deck.

edit - And I mean the overall advantage against delver. Should've specified that.

[HammafistRoob]

I love dredge, but taking it to a huge tournament like an SCG is a brutal mistake.

[KobeBryan]

I love dredge, but taking it to a huge tournament like an SCG is a brutal mistake.



Not necessarily. No one playing in a SCG use graveyard hate, or at least very little

[SHABOOGS]

Hello everyone,

Just got home from a team legacy event with a 93 player turnout (31 teams). My team didn't do too well but I just wanted to share my individual games using LED Dredge. Here's the list I played:

Mainboard (60)

Enchantments (4)
4 Bridge From Below

Artifacts (4)
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

Creatures (21)
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave Troll
3 Ichorid
1 Griselbrand
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

Spells (19)
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
3 Dread Return

Lands (12)
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum

Sideboard (15)
3 Firestorm
3 Pithing Needle
3 Nature's Claim
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Ashen Rider
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

Rd 1 Sneaky Show 2-1 (Team 0-1)
Won game 1 even though I mulled down to 3 with Faithless Looting, Breakthrough, and a Land. Lost game 2 because I kept a slow hand with Nature's Claim for Grafdigger's Cage that didn't show up. Won game 3 even though I misplayed with choosing what to discard via Therapy. Opponent had 2 Griselbrands, 1 Sneak Attack, 1 Intuition, 1 Petal, and Lands but I named Intuition instead of Sneak Attack. Good thing my zombies got there before he could assemble his combo.

Rd 2 Elves 1-1 (Team 0-1-1)
Won game 1 with Flayer and a 10/10 Troll. Lost game 2 because I made a sideboard error boarding in Chain of Vapor (even though I made use of the Vapor/Therapy trick). Game 3 ended in a draw with the last 5 turns and me getting rid of some elves with Firestorm and a stalemate between a 20+/20+ scavenging ooze + some elves and a 15/15 Troll + some zombies.

Rd 3 UWR Delver 2-0 (Team 0-1-2)
No RIP means an easy win for dredge. Easier when your opponent mulls to 5 cards in game 2.

Rd 4 D&T 2-0 (Team 1-1-2)
No RIP means an easy win for dredge. Easier with Iona in game 2.

Rd 5 MUD 0-2 (Team 1-2-2)
Game 1 and 2 were lost due to Trinisphere. I learned that you still need to pay 3 mana even though you use the alternate casting cost of a 4CMC spell (Dread Return). Misplayed on game 2 when I used Therapy on turn 1 and named Trinisphere and opponent reveals 2 Grafdigger's Cage, then he top decks Trinisphere and casts it on his turn. Lesson learned the hard way.

Rd 6 Shardless BUG 2-0 (Team 1-3-2)
My last opponent doesn't know anything about dredge so it was another easy win even though she had a Nihil Spellbomb and Meddling Mage for Dread Return on game 2.

Final standing
Individual 4-1-1
Team 1-3-2

[Daize]

Hey, great that you played dredge! Also, the converted mana cost is still 4, but if there is a cost without mana involved, the mana cost is considered to be 0. Too bad, even if the alt. Cost would be sacrificing all your permanents, the mana cost is still 0. Not really in proportion, right? ;-)

[cronos]

Hi everyone!

I sold my old deck (Goblins) to buy a Dredge deck (I love it :D). I've been testing for a few days with this list...

//Lands
4 Mana Confluence
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum

//Utilities
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
2 Dread Return

//Creatures
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Putrid Imp
3 Golgari Thug

//Sideboard
SB: 4 Lotus Petal
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 2 City of Brass
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

When you want to include Nature's Claim / Firestorm + City of Brass, what do you take away from main deck? I've the same question when I side in Lotus Petal xD. Thanks for your help. Regards.

[Lormador]

One thing you can try, outside of MU-specific plans, is to take out the "all-in" cards (LED and Breakthrough) for the grindier ones that come in. Nature's Claim won't do anything if you LED or Breakthrough your hand away just before a Rest In Peace lands.

Taking out the LED and Breakthrough lets you play with a smaller graveyard, force them to play the Rest In Peace, then you can destroy the Rest In Peace and rebuild with whatever's left.

[cronos]

One thing you can try, outside of MU-specific plans, is to take out the "all-in" cards (LED and Breakthrough) for the grindier ones that come in. Nature's Claim won't do anything if you LED or Breakthrough your hand away just before a Rest In Peace lands.

Taking out the LED and Breakthrough lets you play with a smaller graveyard, force them to play the Rest In Peace, then you can destroy the Rest In Peace and rebuild with whatever's left.

I hadn't thought about that! xD. Thanks for your help!

[DarkJester]

I hadn't thought about that! xD. Thanks for your help!

IMO it's a good plan to grind out a MiraclesOpponent with a more conservative style of playing. They don't have a fast clock, so you can dredge some stuff, hardcast some stuff, force them to RiP, and then explode. Coliseum may be your best friend in this MU.

[Darklingske]

I've always had a hard time against Miracles with dredge. It seems to get a little bit better if I play Ingot Chewer & Wispmare over Nature's Claim. They just save the counters for the claim and then lock me under CB/Top. Anyone else have this problem?

[DarkJester]

I've always had a hard time against Miracles with dredge. It seems to get a little bit better if I play Ingot Chewer & Wispmare over Nature's Claim. They just save the counters for the claim and then lock me under CB/Top. Anyone else have this problem?

Yeah, sometimes they have everything, but how often do they board out CB? I tend to board 1-2 Wispmares in ADDITION to Claims against them to overload their hate.

[snorlaxcom]

I love dredge, but taking it to a huge tournament like an SCG is a brutal mistake.

It just made 11th.

[Vandalize]

Hey guys. Played in a small 12-people 4-rounds tournament in my local store. I was tired of being fair with Canadian, so I thought I could give my LED Dredge a spin.

List:

Lands [13]
4 Mana Confluence
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 City of Brass

Creatures [24]
4 Ichorid
4 Street Wraith
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba

Spells [23]
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Breakthrough

Sideboard [15]
3 Nature's Claim
2 Wispmare
2 Ingot Chewer
1 City of Brass
4 Firestorm
2 Dread Return
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

My list is pretty standard, and my sideboard is a test. I haven't been happy with any DR-targets, aside from Elesh Norn, which can wipe the board even if answered in time.

I went 3-1, and matches as following:

R1: UWr Miracles (2-0)
Dice: him.

G1: Hand (7): Street Wraith, GGT, Bridge, Mana Confluence, Mana Confluence, Breakthrough, Narcomoeba. Not a bad hand, but not an awesome hand. He starts with Fetch -> Go. I just DDD my GGT. He plays another fetch, crack them both and cast Counterbalance. I cycle Street Wraith EOT, which finds me a Stinkweed Imp and Ichorid. I trigger Ichorid, dredge off Stinkweed Imp, finding one more Stinkweed Imp and blanks. I play Mana Confluence into Breakthrough, he flips the Counterbalance and shows Snapcaster Mage. He doesn't have the Force of Will and I just rip his hand apart with Cabal Therapies, leaving him down to 2 lands and one Entreat the Angels, while I have 8 Zombies and 2 Ichorids on standby for next turn.

Sideboarding: -3 Breakthrough -1 Ichorid -1 Golgari Thug +3 Nature's Claim +2 Wispmare

G2: Hand (5): Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Gemstone Mine, Faithless Looting, Ichorid. I had to mulligan twice, and this one is very risky, as I need to find a dredger in three cards (1 for the draw step, 2 from looting). He starts with the famous Fetch -> Tundra -> SDT. I draw Cephalid Coliseum, play Gemstone Mine and cast Faithless Looting. He tanks for a while, but let it resolve, I draw another Lion's Eye Diamond and a Golgari Grave-Troll. Then I play Lion's Eye Diamond and he misplays again by FoWing one. I drop the other two, and flashback my Looting and find 2 Narcomoebas and 2 Bridges from Below, as well as 2 Therapies. I name Rest in Peace and hit, then I name Swords to Plowshares that I saw from the previous Therapy. He durdles for a while with SDT, but can't seem to find Terminus or Rest in Peace. He swords one of my Ichorids, but concedes when he's at 5 life.

R2: Shardless BUG (2-0)
Dice: him.

G1: Hand (7): Gemstone Mine, FL, Breakthrough, Stinkweed, Thug, LED, Bridge. This one was pretty basic. He started with Underground Sea into Deathrite Shaman. I start with 12 tokens in the battlefield, after discarding his Toxic Deluge, Brainstorm and Abrupt Decay from his hand.

Sideboarding: -4 Lion's Eye Diamond +1 City of Brass +2 Dread Return +1 Elesh Norn

G2: Hand (7): M. Confluence, G. Mine, G. Mine, GGT, S. Wraith, Elesh Norn, C. Study. A pretty average hand, but I keep because of Street Wraith. He starts again with Underground -> Deathrite Shaman. I draw another GGT, play Careful Study and draw another C. Study + blank, while bin both GGTs. His turn is Fetch, Brainstorm off Sea, return 2 and crack fetch for Bayou, pass. He tries to eat one GGT in my upkeep, but I Street Wraith in response, finding me one Narcomoeba and one Dread Return. I play Careful Study in my main phase, he doesn't have the FoW, and I manage to find another Narcomoeba and two Bridges, while discarding GGT and Elesh Norn. I sacrifice one with Therapy and name Toxic Deluge (pretty much the only card that could cost me the game) but he doesn't have it. I use the two tokens and the second Moeba to Dread Return Elesh Norn, and he concedes.

R3: Elves (0-2).
Dice: me, but I let him play. This guy usually rocks Miracles, and DDD is fine in that matchup.

G1: Hand (7): Gemstone Mine, Cephalid Coliseum x2, Careful Study, Golgari Thug, Ichorid x2. A really good hand to setup a turn 2 Coliseum. He starts with Fetch -> Forest -> Deathrite Shaman and I sigh. I play Careful Study and find no other dredger. I bin Thug and Ichorid. He plays Quirion Ranger, Gaea's Cradle, tap for 2 mana. He eats Thug, untaps his DRS by bouncing the forest and eat the Ichorid. I draw another non-dredger and concede.

Sideboarding: -3 Breakthrough -4 Lion's Eye Diamond -1 Ichorid +4 Firestorm +2 Dread Return +1 Elesh Norn, +1 City of Brass

G2: Hand (6): Gemstone Mine, Stinkweed Imp x2, GGT, Faithless Looting, Careful Study. This time I'm on the play, and begin with Looting, drawing Dread Return and Cephalid Coliseum, bin Imp and GGT. He starts with Fetch -> Forest -> Deathrite again. I dredge two Narcomoebas, one Ichorid and all four Bridges, after playing Careful Study, but no Cabal Therapy. I can't Dread Return because I only have two creatures in play. I pass. He plays Nettle Sentinel off Forest, Gaea's Cradle, tap for 2 mana. One mana for Hetirage Druid, float one. Use Heritage's ability, getting to 4 mana on pool. Casts GSZ -> Scavenging Ooze, one mana floating. Cast Crop Rotation, sacrificing Gaea's Cradle into another Gaea's Cradle, tap for four mana, eat 3 Bridges and one Ichorid. Christ, what a play. I dredge again, find my third Narcomoeba, but can't find Elesh Norn to Dread Return, so I concede.

I'm a little stunned after this round, that was awesome.

R4: Esper Blade (2-0)
Dice: me.

G1: Hand (7): G. Mine, Cephalid Coliseum, LED, Thug, Ichorid, Breakthrough x2. Awesome hand, but need to chain dredge off my Thug. I'm on the play and start with G. Mine into LED, resolves. Breakthrough, crack LED in response, resolves. I dredge 30 cards deep, finding all my Ichorids, 1 Narcomoeba, 1 Bridge and 1 Cabal Therapy. I blind Therapy into Brainstorm and miss, but he doesn't have much aside from Swords to Plowshares and Stonforge Mystic. His only play is to try StP one of my three Ichorids that I triggered. I dredge another two Bridges off my draw step, attack for 8 (1 Zombie from previous turn +2 Ichorids), and end my turn with 7 tokens + 3 Ichorids to return. He plays Stoneforge Mystic, fetching Batterskull, but does the math and concedes.

Sideboarding: nothing (I usually try to race Esperblade in G2. They use a variety of hate consisting in Rest in Peace, Nihil Spellbomb and Surgical Extraction, making boarding anti-hate difficult).

G2 Hand (7): LED x3, Faithless Looting x3, Stinkweed Imp. As soon as I saw this hand, I started laughing non-stop. This had never happened to me.
He starts with Underground Sea into Brainstorm, and pass. I draw Gemstone Mine, to make the rape even worse, and hardcast everything. He doesn't have a Force of Will, neither a Surgical Extraction. I dredge something like 40 cards, and make more than 10 Zombies. He concedes, and shows the top of his library, a Rest in Peace he had hidden with Brainstorm to cast it next turn.




All in all, a fun tournament. I got 4th place, and won 40$ credit on the store, which is little, but allowed me to buy four foil Street Wraiths that I was looking for, and some cards for my Pauper deck.

Guys, the only hate I've seen lately is Rest in Peace and Deathrite Shaman. Both pretty manageable. I think it's time to play Dredge again to net some wins.

[easysantiago]

Hey guys. Played in a small 12-people 4-rounds tournament in my local store. I was tired of being fair with Canadian, so I thought I could give my LED Dredge a spin.

List:

Lands [13]
4 Mana Confluence
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 City of Brass

Creatures [24]
4 Ichorid
4 Street Wraith
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba

Spells [23]
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Breakthrough

Sideboard [15]
3 Nature's Claim
2 Wispmare
2 Ingot Chewer
1 City of Brass
4 Firestorm
2 Dread Return
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

My list is pretty standard, and my sideboard is a test. I haven't been happy with any DR-targets, aside from Elesh Norn, which can wipe the board even if answered in time.

I went 3-1, and matches as following:

R1: UWr Miracles (2-0)
Dice: him.

G1: Hand (7): Street Wraith, GGT, Bridge, Mana Confluence, Mana Confluence, Breakthrough, Narcomoeba. Not a bad hand, but not an awesome hand. He starts with Fetch -> Go. I just DDD my GGT. He plays another fetch, crack them both and cast Counterbalance. I cycle Street Wraith EOT, which finds me a Stinkweed Imp and Ichorid. I trigger Ichorid, dredge off Stinkweed Imp, finding one more Stinkweed Imp and blanks. I play Mana Confluence into Breakthrough, he flips the Counterbalance and shows Snapcaster Mage. He doesn't have the Force of Will and I just rip his hand apart with Cabal Therapies, leaving him down to 2 lands and one Entreat the Angels, while I have 8 Zombies and 2 Ichorids on standby for next turn.

Sideboarding: -3 Breakthrough -1 Ichorid -1 Golgari Thug +3 Nature's Claim +2 Wispmare

G2: Hand (5): Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Gemstone Mine, Faithless Looting, Ichorid. I had to mulligan twice, and this one is very risky, as I need to find a dredger in three cards (1 for the draw step, 2 from looting). He starts with the famous Fetch -> Tundra -> SDT. I draw Cephalid Coliseum, play Gemstone Mine and cast Faithless Looting. He tanks for a while, but let it resolve, I draw another Lion's Eye Diamond and a Golgari Grave-Troll. Then I play Lion's Eye Diamond and he misplays again by FoWing one. I drop the other two, and flashback my Looting and find 2 Narcomoebas and 2 Bridges from Below, as well as 2 Therapies. I name Rest in Peace and hit, then I name Swords to Plowshares that I saw from the previous Therapy. He durdles for a while with SDT, but can't seem to find Terminus or Rest in Peace. He swords one of my Ichorids, but concedes when he's at 5 life.

R2: Shardless BUG (2-0)
Dice: him.

G1: Hand (7): Gemstone Mine, FL, Breakthrough, Stinkweed, Thug, LED, Bridge. This one was pretty basic. He started with Underground Sea into Deathrite Shaman. I start with 12 tokens in the battlefield, after discarding his Toxic Deluge, Brainstorm and Abrupt Decay from his hand.

Sideboarding: -4 Lion's Eye Diamond +1 City of Brass +2 Dread Return +1 Elesh Norn

G2: Hand (7): M. Confluence, G. Mine, G. Mine, GGT, S. Wraith, Elesh Norn, C. Study. A pretty average hand, but I keep because of Street Wraith. He starts again with Underground -> Deathrite Shaman. I draw another GGT, play Careful Study and draw another C. Study + blank, while bin both GGTs. His turn is Fetch, Brainstorm off Sea, return 2 and crack fetch for Bayou, pass. He tries to eat one GGT in my upkeep, but I Street Wraith in response, finding me one Narcomoeba and one Dread Return. I play Careful Study in my main phase, he doesn't have the FoW, and I manage to find another Narcomoeba and two Bridges, while discarding GGT and Elesh Norn. I sacrifice one with Therapy and name Toxic Deluge (pretty much the only card that could cost me the game) but he doesn't have it. I use the two tokens and the second Moeba to Dread Return Elesh Norn, and he concedes.

R3: Elves (0-2).
Dice: me, but I let him play. This guy usually rocks Miracles, and DDD is fine in that matchup.

G1: Hand (7): Gemstone Mine, Cephalid Coliseum x2, Careful Study, Golgari Thug, Ichorid x2. A really good hand to setup a turn 2 Coliseum. He starts with Fetch -> Forest -> Deathrite Shaman and I sigh. I play Careful Study and find no other dredger. I bin Thug and Ichorid. He plays Quirion Ranger, Gaea's Cradle, tap for 2 mana. He eats Thug, untaps his DRS by bouncing the forest and eat the Ichorid. I draw another non-dredger and concede.

Sideboarding: -3 Breakthrough -4 Lion's Eye Diamond -1 Ichorid +4 Firestorm +2 Dread Return +1 Elesh Norn, +1 City of Brass

G2: Hand (6): Gemstone Mine, Stinkweed Imp x2, GGT, Faithless Looting, Careful Study. This time I'm on the play, and begin with Looting, drawing Dread Return and Cephalid Coliseum, bin Imp and GGT. He starts with Fetch -> Forest -> Deathrite again. I dredge two Narcomoebas, one Ichorid and all four Bridges, after playing Careful Study, but no Cabal Therapy. I can't Dread Return because I only have two creatures in play. I pass. He plays Nettle Sentinel off Forest, Gaea's Cradle, tap for 2 mana. One mana for Hetirage Druid, float one. Use Heritage's ability, getting to 4 mana on pool. Casts GSZ -> Scavenging Ooze, one mana floating. Cast Crop Rotation, sacrificing Gaea's Cradle into another Gaea's Cradle, tap for four mana, eat 3 Bridges and one Ichorid. Christ, what a play. I dredge again, find my third Narcomoeba, but can't find Elesh Norn to Dread Return, so I concede.

I'm a little stunned after this round, that was awesome.

R4: Esper Blade (2-0)
Dice: me.

G1: Hand (7): G. Mine, Cephalid Coliseum, LED, Thug, Ichorid, Breakthrough x2. Awesome hand, but need to chain dredge off my Thug. I'm on the play and start with G. Mine into LED, resolves. Breakthrough, crack LED in response, resolves. I dredge 30 cards deep, finding all my Ichorids, 1 Narcomoeba, 1 Bridge and 1 Cabal Therapy. I blind Therapy into Brainstorm and miss, but he doesn't have much aside from Swords to Plowshares and Stonforge Mystic. His only play is to try StP one of my three Ichorids that I triggered. I dredge another two Bridges off my draw step, attack for 8 (1 Zombie from previous turn +2 Ichorids), and end my turn with 7 tokens + 3 Ichorids to return. He plays Stoneforge Mystic, fetching Batterskull, but does the math and concedes.

Sideboarding: nothing (I usually try to race Esperblade in G2. They use a variety of hate consisting in Rest in Peace, Nihil Spellbomb and Surgical Extraction, making boarding anti-hate difficult).

G2 Hand (7): LED x3, Faithless Looting x3, Stinkweed Imp. As soon as I saw this hand, I started laughing non-stop. This had never happened to me.
He starts with Underground Sea into Brainstorm, and pass. I draw Gemstone Mine, to make the rape even worse, and hardcast everything. He doesn't have a Force of Will, neither a Surgical Extraction. I dredge something like 40 cards, and make more than 10 Zombies. He concedes, and shows the top of his library, a Rest in Peace he had hidden with Brainstorm to cast it next turn.




All in all, a fun tournament. I got 4th place, and won 40$ credit on the store, which is little, but allowed me to buy four foil Street Wraiths that I was looking for, and some cards for my Pauper deck.

Guys, the only hate I've seen lately is Rest in Peace and Deathrite Shaman. Both pretty manageable. I think it's time to play Dredge again to net some wins.

Great report!

[DredgingLoam]

I am kinda new to Dredge and I was curious as to when you board lands in and why. I am playing a fairly stock list, like what Damon Whitby played to get 11th at the SCG event this past weekend. Any help with when to sideboard those in as well as just general sideboard advice would be wonderful.

[Parcher]

I am kinda new to Dredge and I was curious as to when you board lands in and why. I am playing a fairly stock list, like what Damon Whitby played to get 11th at the SCG event this past weekend. Any help with when to sideboard those in as well as just general sideboard advice would be wonderful.

Since when is my list stock? From what I get on these forums, most play things very different from my choices. Mine just has the best results in money tournaments. I posted a guide for it some pages back. You can find it by searching my latest posts. It will hurt you, however, if you regard it as canon. You must find your own adjustment to it when factoring in which game, who is on the play, actual hate vs. predicted hate, etc.

[Que]

This is my current SB:

3x Mindbreak Trap
2x Ancient Grudge
3x Wispmare
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Firestorm
1x Dread Return
1x Ashen Rider
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria

I will admit that the Mindbreak Traps are more metagame dependent, but if you're seeing Storm and Belcher roaming about I always like having it. There is no shame in admitting they're usually a turn faster in general.

The 2 Ancient Grudge I've been liking a lot. They're usually for cards like Batterskull and Jitte which are prevalent in legacy. They're relevant because the Batterskull can be bounced back to destroy our bridges and everyone knows how devastating Jitte can be if it accumulates counters. In this way it alleviates a lot of pressure and buys us more time. Aside from that they're obviously OP against decks like MUD, Affinity, etc.. and take care of other troublesome permanents like Ensnaring Bridge, tormond's cryp, Relic of progenitus, by forcing them to pop them early etc.

My normal boarding plan game 2 is to generally board in the following:
2x Firestorm
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Chain of Vapor

What normally comes out is the 3 Putrid Imp (I believe them to be easiest cut postboard outside of something like Breakthrough or LED), 1 Golgari Thug, and a couple of LEDs as they're most "all in". I generally like to keep all Ichorids as I want the ability to hit them early in the game to start generating any type of board presence with zombies as soon as I can.

The Firestorm will help me start my engine regardless of counter-magic. There is additional value if I get to remove any type of pressure like an early delver, Stoneforge Mystic, and of course using it to destroy the DRS scum! The card has been finally pulling its weight for me. The grudges again serve as an answer to most generic gravehate (still giving you outs to Graffdiggers Cage) and then finally the 2x Chain of Vapor which act more as a catch all type of answer. I liked the idea of having extra outs to Graffdiggers as that card was what hurt most.

I like this setup because I can more accurately attack game 3 by either keeping the Chains of Vapor (more for something like Cage) or removing them and going with the Wispmare (more for something like RIP) and adjust accordingly. This plan covers most angles and I believe it to be the most effective way of minimizing dead dredges. Remember dredging into cards like Firestorm and Chain of vapor get you no where as they have no value there (at least Ancient Grudge is great!).

So if we look at the stats of the cards were taking out game 2:
3x Putrid Imp (Continuous Discard Outlet that cannot get spell Pierced, Black Creature for Ichorid, Flying beater, can be sacrificed to Therapy & Dread Return)
1x Golgari Thug (My version runs 12 Dredgers so going down to 11 in what we expect to be a longer grindier affair is fine especially if we get to flashback Faithless Looting as the game on).
2x LED (1 time Discard Outlet, Generates 3 mana allowing for Faithless Looting Flashback or to pay for soft counters like Daze and spell pierce which is a lot less frequent).

Normally when these cards get dredged the only real dead card would be the LEDs which again makes them a good cut postboard. Depending on the opponent you will most likely go ahead and bench them all, primarily against decks packing RIP as it becomes very easy to get blown out by this card. The Putrid Imp are least impactful as outlets behind Careful Study, Faithless Looting, LED and once they're dredged they only really serve as Ichorid food of which there was plenty so again this was another smart cut, and the 1 Dredger is simply a shave technique. Because I'm already currently running 12 dredgers simply cutting down to 11 is fair and I expect games 2 and 3 to go longer which means I'll have more chances to dredge over the course of the game.

The whole point is to not stray too far away from the game plan. And you only really have 4 "dead" cards postboards as Ancient Grudge is completely fine in the bin. I would keep a hand that was solid even if it doesn't have any of our anti hate as it means that if they kept anything that doesn't interact we will just roll them over once again. It really is game dependent at the end of the day, but you have to be smart about it as well and read your opponents weaknesses. i.e. If he allowed you to resolve a careful study then most likely he has nothing to stop you because that would be the spell to counter given the choice etc..

[SHABOOGS]

For me, my usual sideboard plan is to take out a Dread Return, Griselbrand, and Flayer then put in 3 answers in the form of Chain, Claim, or Firestorm. I don't like to take out LED since it helps in refilling your graveyard by going off as soon as you get rid of the hate or even win before they find hate by dredging through your library and generating a zombie army. I also don't like to board in too many cards (except when I see Leyline of the Void) since it will dilute the deck.

[Parcher]

Quick and dirty from SCGNJ.

Won my first two rounds at the Invi. Round three I get Bertoncini. We have played a hundred times and know exactly what each other is on. Game one, he mulls to nothing, and I win easily. In both games two, and game three, he has three Extractions, and three Deathrites by turn four. Without casting a cantrip, a Snapcaster, or mulliganing in either. I'd love to know the odds on that happening naturally, with 3 total Extractions, and four Deathrites. In a way, it's my fault for not pile shuffling. Even if you crush, and cut, they can easily keep all of their hate together, and hope you just cut if they hit nothing and mull. Regardless, after winning the next round, I get stomped out in Standard.

Saturday I Calosso'd. 6-0, 0-4.

My matchups on Sunday were I believe:

1. Sneak and Show(W)
2. Miracles(L)
3. Shardless(W)
4. Death and Taxes(W)
5. Lands(L)
6. Death and Taxes(W)
7. BUG Delver(W)
8. Sneak and Show(W)
9. Miracles(W)
10. Sneak and Show(W)

Highlights:

Rd 2 against Dan Musser(Winner). Game one, we run over 30 minutes. Me grinding out one creature at a time, against his CB/Top lock. He finally concedes when I start using my four useless Therapies to recur Narcos with Thug, that he can't counter,as I have three dead Ichorids in the yard with no food. Game two I have the best opening hand I have ever had. Land, LED, Petal, Loot, Bthrough, Troll, Stinkweed. He goes turn one Cage on the play, turn two RiP, turn three Counter/Top, turn four Jace.

Hmmm. So that's how that feels.

Game three I mull to nothing. At all.

Rd 4; Game one I blow him out. Game I keep a hand that's pretty safe with PImp, Bthrough, Dredger, and Decay, but only one land. He goes land, Vial, I play Pimp. He goes land, Spirit of the Labyrinth, and gives me that "GOTCHA!" look. Which, during my next upkeep, prompts me to pre-emptively call a Judge. After explaining what I intend to do to both the Judge and my opponent, it is confirmed that all of my dredges will be happening. "That just don't seem right. That a'int right" laments the opponent as he scoops up his cards.

Rd 5; Dave Long(Top8). Game one, we both keep slow hands, and he is unable to find a Bog. He gets Tabernacle, but I am able to grind him out with Ichorids, and having two lands. Game two he leads with Fetch, go. I therapy him for Crop Rotation, and see Crop, Gamble, Exploration, Manabond, lands. He Gambles for Bog on turn two, and I miss the discard. I have to go all-in on LED+Looting, and while I dredge four Trolls, I see no Narcomoebas and lose. Game three is almost exactly the same. Though I do get rid of his Crop, he has Manabond into the DD combo. I have LED+Looting, and not only hit no Narcomoebas, but no Ichorids either. The Ichorids would have done it even without the Narcos, as he had to get an untap to get the combo online, and I would have had both lethal, and a Narco to block after my next turn. We both agreed that we'd never seen anything like that before.

Rd 8; Anthony Lowry. Game one I blow him out. Game two he has the turn two Sneak on the play, turn three Grizz, draw, Emrakul. Game three, I turn one Therapy(with Petal) him for Cage, and see; Cage, Land, Preordain, Petal, Pierce, Pierce, Show. Then play LED, Coliseum. He plays Land, Petal, Petal(drawn), Preordain(bottom both),go. I activate Coliseum, and hit pretty nutty. I Therapy, which he sacs Petal to Pierce. This is then repeated. I then Dread Return Rider to hit his land, and he scoops.

Rd 9; Only interesting thing here is he mulls to four on the play. He goes Plains, go, and I think he's on D&T. He then goes Plains, go, and I KNOW he's on D&T. He scoops in response to a Therapy. Game two, he goes Tundra, Top. Awwwwww. Yooouuu. Turn two he has RiP, but I already have the Decay, and win in short order.

Rd 10; Logan Mize. Game one I blow him out. Game two, he plays land go for three turns. I can't figure out what he's playing at, but I have so much gas in my hand at this point, I'm not concerned about countermagic. I Therapy him, which he Forces. I then dredge with Study, which resolves. "I really hope you are setting me up for something, and not soft in the head", I tell him. But do not have another Therapy. My Breakthrough then resolves, and he Wishes for Rav Trap afterwards. Awwwww. Yoooouuu. Game three I mull to four on the play. Land, Loot, Troll, Bridge. He has Leyline of Sanctity, and and I found out later, no countermagic, and a turn two Grizz. My Loot resolves, which draws me LED(!), which I play, Coliseum(!!). He plays a land, Ponders, and passes. I go nuts, don't even bother to Rider his Leyline(hit his land), and put too much on the board for any draw to get him out.

Can't be too dissappointed. My two losses on Sunday couldn't have been won with play. The Invi, I would be salty about, if I had any chance in Standard.

[ottofromorbit]

Quick and dirty from SCGNJ.

Won my first two rounds at the Invi. Round three I get Bertoncini. We have played a hundred times and know exactly what each other is on. Game one, he mulls to nothing, and I win easily. In both games two, and game three, he has three Extractions, and three Deathrites by turn four. Without casting a cantrip, a Snapcaster, or mulliganing in either. I'd love to know the odds on that happening naturally, with 3 total Extractions, and four Deathrites. In a way, it's my fault for not pile shuffling. Even if you crush, and cut, they can easily keep all of their hate together, and hope you just cut if they hit nothing and mull. Regardless, after winning the next round, I get stomped out in Standard.

Saturday I Calosso'd. 6-0, 0-4.

My matchups on Sunday were I believe:

1. Sneak and Show(W)
2. Miracles(L)
3. Shardless(W)
4. Death and Taxes(W)
5. Lands(L)
6. Death and Taxes(W)
7. BUG Delver(W)
8. Sneak and Show(W)
9. Miracles(W)
10. Sneak and Show(W)

Highlights:

Rd 2 against Dan Musser(Winner). Game one, we run over 30 minutes. Me grinding out one creature at a time, against his CB/Top lock. He finally concedes when I start using my four useless Therapies to recur Narcos with Thug, that he can't counter,as I have three dead Ichorids in the yard with no food. Game two I have the best opening hand I have ever had. Land, LED, Petal, Loot, Bthrough, Troll, Stinkweed. He goes turn one Cage on the play, turn two RiP, turn three Counter/Top, turn four Jace.

Hmmm. So that's how that feels.

Game three I mull to nothing. At all.

Rd 4; Game one I blow him out. Game I keep a hand that's pretty safe with PImp, Bthrough, Dredger, and Decay, but only one land. He goes land, Vial, I play Pimp. He goes land, Spirit of the Labyrinth, and gives me that "GOTCHA!" look. Which, during my next upkeep, prompts me to pre-emptively call a Judge. After explaining what I intend to do to both the Judge and my opponent, it is confirmed that all of my dredges will be happening. "That just don't seem right. That a'int right" laments the opponent as he scoops up his cards.

Rd 5; Dave Long(Top8). Game one, we both keep slow hands, and he is unable to find a Bog. He gets Tabernacle, but I am able to grind him out with Ichorids, and having two lands. Game two he leads with Fetch, go. I therapy him for Crop Rotation, and see Crop, Gamble, Exploration, Manabond, lands. He Gambles for Bog on turn two, and I miss the discard. I have to go all-in on LED+Looting, and while I dredge four Trolls, I see no Narcomoebas and lose. Game three is almost exactly the same. Though I do get rid of his Crop, he has Manabond into the DD combo. I have LED+Looting, and not only hit no Narcomoebas, but no Ichorids either. The Ichorids would have done it even without the Narcos, as he had to get an untap to get the combo online, and I would have had both lethal, and a Narco to block after my next turn. We both agreed that we'd never seen anything like that before.

Rd 8; Anthony Lowry. Game one I blow him out. Game two he has the turn two Sneak on the play, turn three Grizz, draw, Emrakul. Game three, I turn one Therapy(with Petal) him for Cage, and see; Cage, Land, Preordain, Petal, Pierce, Pierce, Show. Then play LED, Coliseum. He plays Land, Petal, Petal(drawn), Preordain(bottom both),go. I activate Coliseum, and hit pretty nutty. I Therapy, which he sacs Petal to Pierce. This is then repeated. I then Dread Return Rider to hit his land, and he scoops.

Rd 9; Only interesting thing here is he mulls to four on the play. He goes Plains, go, and I think he's on D&T. He then goes Plains, go, and I KNOW he's on D&T. He scoops in response to a Therapy. Game two, he goes Tundra, Top. Awwwwww. Yooouuu. Turn two he has RiP, but I already have the Decay, and win in short order.

Rd 10; Logan Mize. Game one I blow him out. Game two, he plays land go for three turns. I can't figure out what he's playing at, but I have so much gas in my hand at this point, I'm not concerned about countermagic. I Therapy him, which he Forces. I then dredge with Study, which resolves. "I really hope you are setting me up for something, and not soft in the head", I tell him. But do not have another Therapy. My Breakthrough then resolves, and he Wishes for Rav Trap afterwards. Awwwww. Yoooouuu. Game three I mull to four on the play. Land, Loot, Troll, Bridge. He has Leyline of Sanctity, and and I found out later, no countermagic, and a turn two Grizz. My Loot resolves, which draws me LED(!), which I play, Coliseum(!!). He plays a land, Ponders, and passes. I go nuts, don't even bother to Rider his Leyline(hit his land), and put too much on the board for any draw to get him out.

Can't be too dissappointed. My two losses on Sunday couldn't have been won with play. The Invi, I would be salty about, if I had any chance in Standard.


can you post that decklist.
nice move winning on recurred narcos with sac thug

[jamie7keller]

Some guidelines on how to use Cabal Therapy might be helpful to the newer players. It is one of the things you need to master to be good with the deck and many people are really clueless on what to pick. I have no idea on how something this complex and situational like the use of Cabal Therapy can be put into simple guidelines, but maybe someone has an idea how to make it work :-) Perhaps with an example or two.

I am no expert, but there is a great guide to cabal therapy.

http://www.channelfireball.com/home/legacy-weapon-therapy-session/

the summary is, FIRST think of what card(s) you NEED them to not have...if you somehow know they have three ponders, you might still name force of will.
SECOND think of what would have convinced them to keep, rather than muligan.

I have amanaless dredge question. Here is my current list (sideboard is a bit of a mess):

Creature (44)
4x Balustrade Spy
4x Chancellor of the Annex
1x Flayer of the Hatebound
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Golgari Thug
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Nether Shadow
4x Phantasmagorian
3x Shambling Shell
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Street Wraith

Sorcery (12)
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Dread Return
4x Gitaxian Probe

Enchantment (4)
4x Bridge from Below

Sideboard (15)
1x Ashen Rider
4x Faerie Macabre
3x Greater Mossdog
2x Mindbreak Trap
4x Noxious Revival
1x Sickening Shoal

I am considering the transformative anti-hate sideboard of Hollywood, linked in the first post, as shown below:

4 Reverent Silence
3 Nature’s Claim
3 Noxious Revival
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Sickening Shoal
1 Forest
(4 dryad arbors in the main)

What do you all think? Also, I have considered a serra avatar or somethign simmilar, so that if i am stoped from winning after a spy combo (which entire library in graveyard) i don't automatically mill myself the next turn. I know cabal theray should keep my win safe, but am I right to worry? Also, having that lets me drop the spy to an opponenet's show and tell and win the next turn.

[birdbrains]

I picked up Dredge after a long break from it, and brought it to my local Saturday legacy. It was 12 people, four rounds, and I went 3-0-1, splitting in the finals.

I was rocking a pretty standard Quadlazor list:

4x Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed
4x Thug
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Street Wraith
3x Pimp

4x LED
4x Faithless Looting
4x Careful Study
4x Therapy
4x Bridge
1x Dread Return

4x Coliseum
4x Gemstone
4x City of Brass

Sideboard:
3x Wispmare
2x Grudge
2x Mana Confluence
1x Dread Return
1x Iona
1x Ashen Rider
2x Firestorm
3x Mindbreak Trap


Round 1 - TES

My opponent wins the roll and opts to go first. He ponders his hand for a minute before going to 6, and I keep a 7 of City, Coliseum, Stinkweed, Putrid Imp and 3 randoms. He starts by playing a turn 1 Bloodstained Mire. I play City of Brass, Putrid Imp, and he groans. On his turn, he plays a Gemstone Mine and I put him on Storm. He passes it back and I dredge into a Stinkweed and Thug. I play LED, Coliseum, break LED for 3 red and use the Coliseum. I dredge an Ichorid, Narcomoeba and Therapy, and cast it to make a zombie. I named Dark Ritual, and he reveals 2x Lotus Petal, 2x LED, Ad Nauseam. On his turn, he plays all his artifact mana and passes. On my turn, I make an Ichorid, dredge into another Bridge and swing for 5. He scoops when I attack next turn with an army of zombies and Ichorids.

Board -3 Putrid Imp, +3 Mindbreak Trap

Game 2 he's on the play again. I mull to 6 and keep Gemstone, LED, Careful Study, Stinkweed, Street Wraith and Thug. He gets things going quick by making 12 goblins on his turn 1, so I have to catch up quickly. I go for land, LED, Careful Study, cracking for 3 red. I hit a looting in my first dredges and go on to hit 3x Bridge and 3x Narcomoeba and make 6 2/2 zombies to hold off his army of 1/1s. He swings for 9 on his turn, and I block 7 of it, netting 3 more zombies before my Bridges are exiled. On my turn, I bring back 4 Ichorids and swing with the gang.

1-0

Round 2 - Reanimator

My notes for game 1 are "Turn 1 11/11 Grave-Troll." A Therapy showed he was on Reanimator, and he can't get anything online before the Troll kills him.

Board: -2 LED, +Iona +Dread Return

Game 2, I keep something like Land, a bunch of dredgers, Iona on a mull to 6, knowing he's playing Show and Tells. He plays a Crypt, and I Therapy on my turn 1 for Entomb, but miss. Revealing Dark Ritual, Ponder, Exhume, Grislebrand, Elesh Norn. On his turn 2, he Show and Tells, putting down the Elesh Norn. Iona and Elesh trade blows for a couple of turns until he draws another Show and Tell for Grislebrand. I die pretty soon after that.

Game 3 he mulls to 6, and I keep Gemstone, Careful Study, Dread Return, Grave-Troll, Thug, Coliseum, Pimp. I play the Imp, and pass. On his turn 1 he plays a Crypt and no land. I discard the Grave-Troll, and he Surgicals it. That sets me back a bit, as I don't hit anything off the Thug. This goes on for a few turns as I'm beating for 2 and he draws no lands. I hit an Ichorid after a couple turns and he cracks his crypt. My hand at that point was Street Wraith, 2x Stinkweed, with a coliseum and Gemstone. I use the Imps and the Wraith to get Threshold for the Coliseum and the game is over pretty quick from there.

2-0

Round 3 - BUG Pod

I lose the roll, and keep a 7 with Grave Troll, Street Wraith and Pimp. On his turn 1 he makes a Deathrite, and passes. I play the Imp, and dredge the Troll in response to his Deathrite. I hit some business, and Therapy on my turn for Birthing Pod, hitting 2 and revealing Deathrite, Eternal Witness, 2 lands. His Deathrite keeps me off my Ichorids for some turns, but zombies get there.

Board: -2 LED -2 Ichorid -Dread Return -Thug, +2 Mana Confluence +2 Ancient Grudge +2 Firestorm

I keep an iffy six of 2x City, Careful Study, Stinkweed, Thug, Narco. He's on the play and leads with a Trop. On my turn, he Force's my Careful study. He Brainstorms on my end step, and looks displeased with his draws. He plays a Therapy for LED and misses, and a land that isn't a fetch, so I'm pretty sure he's brainstorm locked for another turn. I don't draw anything useful and spend the next couple turns playing and beating with the Narcomoeba and Thug. He keeps drawing mana, and I'm able to get some dredging online after taking a lot of damage to playing dudes. I whittle him down to 5, then finally hit some Ichorids to clean up the job.

3-0

The other 3-0 and I decide to prize split, netting us each $45 store credit. But we decide to play it out for fun, and to test our matchups.

Round 4 - Elves!

I win the die roll and know what he's playing, so I'm able to hit with a Therapy on Glimpse of Nature. He reveals a bunch of elf dudes and a Green Sun. He plays a Wirewood Symbiote on his turn 1, and I do some unfair things on my turn 2. Game 1 is over pretty quickly.

Board: -3 Pimp, +3 Mindbreak Trap

Game 2 he isn't able to get an engine going for a couple turns, but I don't have much either. I'm not able to do much besides Mindbreak Trap a Natural Order and get trampled to death by Elves.

Game 3 I kept a hand with Grave-Troll and 2x Street Wraith. I decide to go the DDD route, and pass on the play. He plays a Deathrite on his turn 1, but I figure it's all going to be okay. On my turn, I draw and discard the Troll, passing it back. He goes to remove my Troll on his turn, but I have the tech! He's surprised, but attempts to then Surgical the Troll, only to find I have yet another answer. Things are looking good for me with two draws on the stack. I start to dredge and hit 3 lands, Mindbreak Trap, LED and Faithless Looting. Oh well. I continue to hit bad luck for a couple of turns while he makes an army of little green men. I had a Mindbreak Trap for a Natural Order, but it turns out he didn't need it as he slams down the Hoof next turn and swings in.

I couldn't feel too bad after having a pretty good run of luck with most of my prior dredges during the night. It feels like a super good time to be coming back to the deck. Some people seem to have lost respect for the deck and are skimping on hate. I'm looking forward to putting the fear back in them.


As far as the board goes right now, I'm feeling pretty comfortable with this set up. There's a fair amount of combo in my meta, so having Mindbreak Traps is pretty nice. I've been switching back and forth between Grudges and Ingot Chewers as the artifact hate, but definitely appreciate the flexibility of Grudge. Not sure I want to drop the Confluences as it helps smooth out the amount of games we can hit 2 mana. I might end up tinkering with some ideas over the next couple weeks and come back with updates.

[Bookwizard]

I am a recent dredge convert, and have built the manaless dredge deck. I am reading every article and watching every video I can find on manaless dredge. I read your article in "Cutting Room Floor" as well. Thank you for this primer as well as the former article.

What I would like is a sideboarding guide that tells me what cards to remove when I bring in the sideboard cards. I don't want to ruin the main deck by replacing the wrong cards after game one.

The build I am starting with:

Creature [44]
4 Ichorid
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Shambling Shell
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Nether Shadow
4 Street Wraith
2 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Dryad Arbor
3 Griselbrand

Instant [4]
3 Contagion
1 Sickening Shoal

Sorcery [8]
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy

Enchantment [4]
4 Bridge from Below

Sideboard [15]
1 Forest
3 Nature's Claim
3 Noxious Revival
2 Sickening Shoal
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Reverent Silence

I look forward to your reply.

Thank you,

Bookwizard

[Michael Keller]

Folks,

There is actually a forum designated specifically for Manaless Dredge in the Established Forum. Any questions, feel free to post them there and I can answer them for you.

Thanks!

[Timber]

Nice work on the top 8 Parcher.

[ottofromorbit]

is there any interest in treasure cruise or fatesticher in the main?
i look at fatestitcher and think of synergy with cabal therapy, untapping our lands or tap a hatebear or any pertmanent that threatens our combo,, or when we crack led to activate coliseum with 2 more blue floating. etc...
treasure cruise just seems like a big commitment. anyone playtest it?

[Parcher]

Nice work on the top 8 Parcher.

Thanks!

Not a bad weekend. Beat Infect, Lands, Miracles, 2X Deathblade, Elves, U/R Delver. Lost to Sneak and Manaless, and drew with BUG.

MD Darkblast worked perfectly. Won both Game 2's against U/R and Elves, and Game 1 against Infect because of it. Also beat a Deathblade deck that for some reason ran Cage over Surgical, due to hardcasting Thugs and Narcos, and DBlasting them to trigger Bridges. Against the other Blade deck, it protected my single Ichorid from a game-winning Plow.

Uncertain about the Seizes. If more Delve cards become commonplace, might have to run anti-hate there. Depends on the saturation of Combo in the upcoming metagame.

Not much else in the way of highlights. Lost Game three to Sneak due to a first turn Seize allowing a second turn Breakthrough. He Brainstorms in response, but I then empty his hand, and force hime to shuffle due to discarding Emrakul. He blind rips Cage, and the Therapies had eaten up all my threats. Whatever. Same deal with the Game 2 against Manaless. I saw one total dredger in 27 cards. So I lose to varience. Part of the deck.

Only other interesting thing was my Round Nine match. I'll paraphrase the dialogue.

GFab: Hi, I'm Gerrard.
Me: Hi, I'm Damon. So, draw?
GFab: No.
Me: No? Uhh...we're first and second seed?
GFab: I know.
Me: So.......
GFab: So let's play.
Me(I know he's on BUG, with like two hate pieces): You got it buddy.(proceed to shuffle up)
Judge(grabs slip): I'll take this. Oh. What's going on?
GFab: We're playing it out.
Judge: Really? Well OK then.(sits down to watch)
Friend of Gerrard: Hey. We're going to get food. You coming?
GFab: We're playing it out.
Friend of Gerrard: Uh....you are playing for seeding? You'll still be in second or third with a draw.
GFab: And what if I want to play through the final?
Friend of Gerrard: Uhh......OK.(sits down to watch)
GFab: High Roll?(rolls a 2)(I roll a 16)
GFab: Oh. Never mind then. Want to draw?
Me(fuming, but exhausted): Sure. Fine.
Judge: What a dick move. Sign the slip.(we do) Let me get your decks so we can check before Top8.
GFab: No. I'm going to eat.
Judge: Uhhh, well we can't wait for you to eat. We want them done as soon as possible.
GFab: You gonna be responsible for it when I leave? No? Then too bad.
Judge: Ok. Wait here. I'll get the Head Judge to discuss this with you.
GFab: Get fucked, nerd. (walks out)[I might have editorialized that last line. But that was the intent of his statement.]

[Michael Keller]

TOnly other interesting thing was my Round Nine match. I'll paraphrase the dialogue.

GFab: Hi, I'm Gerrard.
Me: Hi, I'm Damon. So, draw?
GFab: No.
Me: No? Uhh...we're first and second seed?
GFab: I know.
Me: So.......
GFab: So let's play.
Me(I know he's on BUG, with like two hate pieces): You got it buddy.(proceed to shuffle up)
Judge(grabs slip): I'll take this. Oh. What's going on?
GFab: We're playing it out.
Judge: Really? Well OK then.(sits down to watch)
Friend of Gerrard: Hey. We're going to get food. You coming?
GFab: We're playing it out.
Friend of Gerrard: Uh....you are playing for seeding? You'll still be in second or third with a draw.
GFab: And what if I want to play through the final?
Friend of Gerrard: Uhh......OK.(sits down to watch)
GFab: High Roll?(rolls a 2)(I roll a 16)
GFab: Oh. Never mind then. Want to draw?
Me(fuming, but exhausted): Sure. Fine.
Judge: What a dick move. Sign the slip.(we do) Let me get your decks so we can check before Top8.
GFab: No. I'm going to eat.
Judge: Uhhh, well we can't wait for you to eat. We want them done as soon as possible.
GFab: You gonna be responsible for it when I leave? No? Then too bad.
Judge: Ok. Wait here. I'll get the Head Judge to discuss this with you.
GFab: Get fucked, nerd. (walks out)[I might have editorialized that last line. But that was the intent of his statement.]

What a tool.

I wouldn't have accepted his offer after the roll and would have stared him stone-cold in the face after drilling him with a horde of zombies.

[Que]

Grats on the top 8 dude.

I'm going to try the Dark Blast MD. I'm always a fan of having different angles. I still like having a DR main for that reason, but I'm going to try the extra land in its stead.

I noticed you only have a singleton Ashen Rider as a DR target. Do you worry that because you only have 1 DR in the whole 75 that it wont be recurred a good number of times? Also do you not like Iona? I find it a house against a span of common decks like Burn, Elves, storm variants, etc..

[Parcher]

Grats on the top 8 dude.

I'm going to try the Dark Blast MD. I'm always a fan of having different angles. I still like having a DR main for that reason, but I'm going to try the extra land in its stead.

I noticed you only have a singleton Ashen Rider as a DR target. Do you worry that because you only have 1 DR in the whole 75 that it wont be recurred a good number of times? Also do you not like Iona? I find it a house against a span of common decks like Burn, Elves, storm variants, etc..

The only reason I run a Rider as a target is for Lands/Post. Since lands are the only thing I have no other way to interact with. Maze+Tabernacle is a big problem, and Chasm is unbeatable if they have anything to back it up. Even the FStorm hail mary doesn't work since Stage was printed. Having only one of each is rarely a problem, since you have to pick your spot and go all-in against these decks anyway. If one of the two ends up in the last few cards, and they have an unbeatable board state without me hitting Rider, it's a trade-off I'm fine with. Not worth losing more slots for such fringe decks anyway.

I bring Rider in against Show for obvious reasons, and against Miracles when I'm not running additional discard in the SB. That's it. Though there are a few more attrition-focused matchups where I will bring in the DR solo.

[jimmythegreek]

Against an unknown opponent on the play what's the correct line with an opening seven of coliseum, gemstone, led, imp, 2xlooting and stink imp? All in with led looting shenanigans or wait a turn for a coliseum activation? I'm thinking about bringing either led dredge or goblins to gp jersey, is it a mistake bringing led dredge to a seemingly blue infested meta?

[Beatusnox]

Against an unknown opponent on the play what's the correct line with an opening seven of coliseum, gemstone, led, imp, 2xlooting and stink imp? All in with led looting shenanigans or wait a turn for a coliseum activation? I'm thinking about bringing either led dredge or goblins to gp jersey, is it a mistake bringing led dredge to a seemingly blue infested meta?

Part of the problem here is that no two players are identical. For some reason, and I have been wrong a few times. Most control players give off a certain, vibe, much like mono-red players. A very integral part of this deck is being able to pick up tells and develop a sixth sense towards your opponents and trying to put them on a deck while they are shuffling/setting up to play.

Against a totally unknown player that I have absolutely no read on. I slow roll it. Mine into Loot, see what my draw is and continue. Part of the 'x-factor' to your question is we do not know what the two cards off the draw are. They could either vastly change how the hand is played, or be total bricks in which case you only dump one dredger. Going this Route, you also get to dredge/dig one deeper. Assuming you hit nothing of the Faithless for a Second Dredge, you can natural dredge, and see if you hit anything. If you hit something good(more dredgers), I would tap the Gemstone into the second faithless. If for some reason he is a counter player, he may wait to here to counter your spell(I have seen it happen), if that is the case run out the LED and try to go off with the coliseum. If you resolve the faithless, you should be able to just go nuts, and assuming you are running a combo finish, you can end the game on the spot on turn 2 hopefully as long as dredges go your way, and if you cannot factually win the game, typically you can get into such a position were you lock out your opponent or strip anything relevant from their hand.

Other players may greatly differ from my playstyle, but that is one of the things I love about this deck, outside of a few select instances, playstyle can be taken into account and you can play how it feels right to you and not just 'cause reasons'.

~Nox

[Noctalor]

Hi guys, just got top 8 at Ovino 9 (476 players) with this list:
4 Mana Confluence
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
1 City of Brass
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Loothing
3 Breakthrought
3 Street Wraith
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
2 Dread Return
1 Griselbrand
4 Bridge From Below
4 Cabal Therapy

2 City of Brass
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Ingot Chewer
2 Wispmare
2 Nature's Claim
3 Firestorm
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Ashen Rider

I wrote a detailed report on Tipo1.it (in italian), if you have any question im here :)

PS: a big thanks for all of you, this thread helped me so much building my 75 ^^

[Darklingske]

How did the street wraiths work out for you? Since you only run 1 Grisel & 2 DR, I guess you go for the grindy way instead of the combo-route, I presume? And haven't you missed the Probes? I'm asking this because I usually play the quadlaser list.

[Noctalor]

How did the street wraiths work out for you? Since you only run 1 Grisel & 2 DR, I guess you go for the grindy way instead of the combo-route, I presume? And haven't you missed the Probes? I'm asking this because I usually play the quadlaser list.

I never had a chance to fizzle a DRS using SW, but many times felt needed for get ichorid online.

Imho you have to play at least 3 imp/SW in order to play ichorid consistently, and i feel like imp is really not worth at all in LEDWith, is too slow compared to the other 57.

And for the DR, well, imho you dont have to play a second target, if you get a grisel online you can just drop 4 therapy and let them have a single topdeck, most likely you will win anyway.

Probe would have been great, but is just a card you cant play over a card you have in the 75 imho, let's say you have to make good reads on opponent hand by yourself, because SW give you a solution to a problem, GP give you information you can still be able to get.

[Darklingske]

Imho you have to play at least 3 imp/SW in order to play ichorid consistently, and i feel like imp is really not worth at all in LEDWith, is too slow compared to the other 57.

So, if it was up to you, what would you replace Imp with? You can't let the black creature count to low because of Ichorid, so I guess PImp is the least of all evil.

[Noctalor]

So, if it was up to you, what would you replace Imp with? You can't let the black creature count to low because of Ichorid, so I guess PImp is the least of all evil.

You have 3 slot, you can chose between:
- Street Wraith
- Second Griselbrand
- Mono Phantasmagorian
- Four Ichorid
- Maindeck Ashen Rider

And imho 3 SW is the best choice, maybe 2 SW and 2nd Grisel.

[Cipher]

The only reason I run a Rider as a target is for Lands/Post. Since lands are the only thing I have no other way to interact with. Maze+Tabernacle is a big problem, and Chasm is unbeatable if they have anything to back it up. Even the FStorm hail mary doesn't work since Stage was printed. Having only one of each is rarely a problem, since you have to pick your spot and go all-in against these decks anyway. If one of the two ends up in the last few cards, and they have an unbeatable board state without me hitting Rider, it's a trade-off I'm fine with. Not worth losing more slots for such fringe decks anyway.

I bring Rider in against Show for obvious reasons, and against Miracles when I'm not running additional discard in the SB. That's it. Though there are a few more attrition-focused matchups where I will bring in the DR solo.

Any chance of a sideboarding bit on all these Petals and Decays?

[Infectious]

Any chance of a sideboarding bit on all these Petals and Decays?

Scroll back a few pages:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23432-Deck-Dredge/page161

[mario91234]

That gerrard comment was hysterical. I would've bashed his face in after that bullshit. Clearly he has never seen pulp fiction.

[Que]

After trying Parcher's SB I can now say that Lotus Petal is pretty damn sweet. idk about the 2 Thougseizes as I think i would rather them be another DR and an Iona only because my meta has burn and elves in it (although I guess thats what the 3 firestorms are about lol).

Lotus Petal keeps you on parity game 2 and helps you play around Daze. Under better circumstances they can tap out on their turn 1 casting anything and on your turn barring a FOW can drop a land and a petal --> Careful Study/faithless into Breakthrough and close the game out right then before they can really interact. They also speed you up against faster combo decks where Putrid Imp is too slow.

I'm liking the Abrupts as well except for weird spots when Thalia hits play. :/

[Parcher]

After trying Parcher's SB I can now say that Lotus Petal is pretty damn sweet. idk about the 2 Thougseizes as I think i would rather them be another DR and an Iona only because my meta has burn and elves in it (although I guess thats what the 3 firestorms are about lol).

Lotus Petal keeps you on parity game 2 and helps you play around Daze. Under better circumstances they can tap out on their turn 1 casting anything and on your turn barring a FOW can drop a land and a petal --> Careful Study/faithless into Breakthrough and close the game out right then before they can really interact. They also speed you up against faster combo decks where Putrid Imp is too slow.

I'm liking the Abrupts as well except for weird spots when Thalia hits play. :/

This was the first time I tried the Seizes, and they were just OK. My thinking was, I needed something additional against Storm and Reanimator, since DR/Rider does very little. They also should be excellent against Miracles, and they fit the slot for anti-Extraction cards, being another way to pre-emptively deal with it.

Replacing them with another DR package is great against Combo, but almost worthless against Reanimator, since not only does Norn shut all DRs off, they can reanimate your Iona if you can't. Probably a wash against Miracles, since Iona shuts them down, and Rider gives you the turn or two you need to race. Probably a little worse against Extraction. Obviously doesn't stop it, but does force them to reevaluate their targets. A field with a significant Deathblade and Reanimator presence would be bad, but otherwise it seems fine.

[Que]

This was the first time I tried the Seizes, and they were just OK. My thinking was, I needed something additional against Storm and Reanimator, since DR/Rider does very little. They also should be excellent against Miracles, and they fit the slot for anti-Extraction cards, being another way to pre-emptively deal with it.

Replacing them with another DR package is great against Combo, but almost worthless against Reanimator, since not only does Norn shut all DRs off, they can reanimate your Iona if you can't. Probably a wash against Miracles, since Iona shuts them down, and Rider gives you the turn or two you need to race. Probably a little worse against Extraction. Obviously doesn't stop it, but does force them to reevaluate their targets. A field with a significant Deathblade and Reanimator presence would be bad, but otherwise it seems fine.

Yeah I hear you on the reanimator matchup. However, I think its the worst matchup imo and therefore we would require in inordinate amount of our own hate to combat it. In my past experience I've found that if the meta game shifts more towards Reanimator I would definitely shelf dredge for a bit because its that difficult to win. Reanimating Elesh Norn is basically game.

In all honesty I feel like Dredge is only a dog in this matchup and is slightly favored against the rest of the field (if it doesn't already have a glaring advantage).

I think Extraction is only ok against us. There are too many things they need to hit to cut off our legs (Bridge, Ichorid, Narcomoebas, Cabal Therapy, dredgers maybe, DR if its run, etc..). 1 is definitely not game. I would argue they need to see multiples or have the classic Snapcaster Mage flashback to make them relevant. Especially when you can fire off Therapy pre-emptively.

I don't think DR is necessarily weak against Extraction because sometimes they act as a rattlesnake forcing them to extract it or risk letting you reanimate a giant troll or one of your DR bullets. Its yet another card they have to worry about. It gives dredge a different angle.

[gibbousm]

So there's something I've been wondering:

Why do people run Whispmare and Ingot Chewer over something like Demystify or Shatter? You still cast them (and at the same cost) so they can be countered. Is it just to get around Spell Pierce and make them harder to hit with Counterbalance? Is it to be able to Dread Return them after killing the hate? They don't have the most impressive combat stats.

I know a lot of people use Ancient Grudge but I rarely see Ray of Revelation (this I chalk up to artifacts being more prevalent than enchantments in general).

[DarkJester]

So there's something I've been wondering:

Why do people run Whispmare and Ingot Chewer over something like Demystify or Shatter? You still cast them (and at the same cost) so they can be countered. Is it just to get around Spell Pierce and make them harder to hit with Counterbalance? Is it to be able to Dread Return them after killing the hate? They don't have the most impressive combat stats.

I know a lot of people use Ancient Grudge but I rarely see Ray of Revelation (this I chalk up to artifacts being more prevalent than enchantments in general).

Yeah, you basically hit most of the reasons why they are played over your mentioned examples. Furthermore, but in rare scenarios, Mare and Chewer are able to trigger your Bridges when you evoke them. CB shouldn't be the problem at all, but it is indeed a huge upgrade to sidestep Pierce.

[Zombie]

Thalia is also a card.

[Parcher]

So there's something I've been wondering:

Why do people run Whispmare and Ingot Chewer over something like Demystify or Shatter? You still cast them (and at the same cost) so they can be countered. Is it just to get around Spell Pierce and make them harder to hit with Counterbalance? Is it to be able to Dread Return them after killing the hate? They don't have the most impressive combat stats.

I know a lot of people use Ancient Grudge but I rarely see Ray of Revelation (this I chalk up to artifacts being more prevalent than enchantments in general).

Chalice is also a reason. And there is the off-chance you can recur them with Thug triggers. All of these are still pretty marginal. My main deciding factor would be if you have the room in your SB for seperate Artifact, and Enchantment removal cards. Most need to condense those slots.

[gibbousm]

I've noticed that over the past 2 years or so most Dredge pilots have been cutting Dread Return and the combo-kill from the deck instead relying on just Ichorid and Zombie beats. Is there a particular reason for this? Being able to kill out of nowhere is always a good option for a deck to have and cutting the combo-kill from the main deck means no turn 1 kills though turn 2 kills are still possible. Does not including the combo increase the consistency of the deck enough to warrant cutting it? Or is there another reason apart from personal preference?

[laststepdown]

I've noticed that over the past 2 years or so most Dredge pilots have been cutting Dread Return and the combo-kill from the deck instead relying on just Ichorid and Zombie beats. Is there a particular reason for this? Being able to kill out of nowhere is always a good option for a deck to have and cutting the combo-kill from the main deck means no turn 1 kills though turn 2 kills are still possible. Does not including the combo increase the consistency of the deck enough to warrant cutting it? Or is there another reason apart from personal preference?

Mostly to make mulligans more consistently full of enablers. That option is usually in sideboard when you need it. Firing of 2 or 3 Therapies with 16-18 power on the table may not be a 'combo kill', but it's where you want to be game 1.

[Hencules]

Mostly to make mulligans more consistently full of enablers. That option is usually in sideboard when you need it. Firing of 2 or 3 Therapies with 16-18 power on the table may not be a 'combo kill', but it's where you want to be game 1.

I play one dread return main for value, no dedicated targets though. They're in the board like you said.

[gibbousm]

Mostly to make mulligans more consistently full of enablers. That option is usually in sideboard when you need it. Firing of 2 or 3 Therapies with 16-18 power on the table may not be a 'combo kill', but it's where you want to be game 1.

Then for games 2 & 3 if you have DR + Flame-Kin Zealot/Flayer of the Hatebound in the sideboard, what match ups would you bring them in for?
I know which match ups I'd want DR + Ashen Rider/Iona/Elesh Norn in against. But which ones improve by bringing in the classic combo kill?

[DarkJester]

Then for games 2 & 3 if you have DR + Flame-Kin Zealot/Flayer of the Hatebound in the sideboard, what match ups would you bring them in for?
I know which match ups I'd want DR + Ashen Rider/Iona/Elesh Norn in against. But which ones improve by bringing in the classic combo kill?

A little outdated, but you may want to bring Zealot in MU's where you have to race and you will mostly be relatively undisrupted. Storm comes to mind. In my oppinion, it's not needed nowadays, cause you are already fast enough to fire off your mini-mind-twists.

[stokpile]

I picked up dredge a few weeks ago and have been grinding a ton of games with it since to get to know the deck. But in my testing I've come across dozens of openers that I'm not sure if they're keepable or not. So I wanted to post a handful of hands and see what everyone here thinks of them. Assume that you're running the quad lazer style list, you're playing against a completely unknown opponent, and say weather or not you'd keep and if play or draw would influence your decision. Also if they seem to be especially weird explain how you'd play them out over the first couple turns or hope that they would go. Also if there was one cosmetic but impactful change, such as having a looting instead of a careful study, would you keep it then?

Hand #1
2 cabal therapy, putrid imp, 3 gemstone mine, 1 narcomeba


Hand #2
2 gemstone mine, 2 careful study, 1 faithless looting, 1 dread return, 1 coliseum


Hand #3
2 coliseum, 1 LED, 1 bridge, 1 grave troll, 1 narcomeba, 1 ichorid


Hand #4
1 gemstone mine, 1 grave troll, 1 LED, 1 breakthrough, 3 narcomeba


Hand #5
1 gemstone mine, 1 grave troll, 2 careful study, 2 bridge, 1 ichorid


Hand #6
1 LED, 1 grave troll, 1 stinkweed imp, 1 bridge, 1 ichorid, 1 narcomeba, 1 looting


Hand #7
2 cabal therapy, 1 putrid imp, 3 city of brass, 1 narcomeba


Hand #8
1 gemstone mine, 1 careful study, 1 stinkweed imp, 1 dread return, 1 ichorid, 2 bridge


Hand #9
2 LED, 1 gemstone mine, 1 coliseum, 1 careful study, 2 break through


After playing a ton of goldfish games with the deck I'm pretty sure I have a handle on which of those hands are acceptable and which should be sent back as tempting as they might seem. Still I would love to hear what other people have to say on the more interesting hands that we could get.

[tyriion]

Hand #1
2 cabal therapy, putrid imp, 3 gemstone mine, 1 narcomeba

Wouldn't keep against a completely unknown opponent instead hoping for a better six that actually does stuff T1. For game 2 this might be keepable, especially if the oppo had to mull to get hate.


Hand #2
2 gemstone mine, 2 careful study, 1 faithless looting, 1 dread return, 1 coliseum

This is a keep, not the fastest start, but can already be pretty nuts T2. If you hit a LED on your looting it goes insane.



Hand #3
2 coliseum, 1 LED, 1 bridge, 1 grave troll, 1 narcomeba, 1 ichorid

On the draw I'd keep, as DDD can net you 2 a coliseum activation, 2 if you durdle a bit more. On the play try to get something better.


Hand #4
1 gemstone mine, 1 grave troll, 1 LED, 1 breakthrough, 3 narcomeba

Mull, 3 moeba's is too much.


Hand #5
1 gemstone mine, 1 grave troll, 2 careful study, 2 bridge, 1 ichorid

Keep, not really explosive, but it has all you need.



Hand #6
1 LED, 1 grave troll, 1 stinkweed imp, 1 bridge, 1 ichorid, 1 narcomeba, 1 looting

I have won with hands like this and I have lost. If they have FoW you just sit there. Completely unkown I'd try it.



Hand #7
2 cabal therapy, 1 putrid imp, 3 city of brass, 1 narcomeba

Not much for you in there, always a mulligan.



Hand #8
1 gemstone mine, 1 careful study, 1 stinkweed imp, 1 dread return, 1 ichorid, 2 bridge

Tricky one, as there are 2 bridges in your hand. Not really sure, this one can go either way, at least to me.



Hand #9
2 LED, 1 gemstone mine, 1 coliseum, 1 careful study, 2 break through

Keep, T1 study, T2 breaktrhough + likely coliseum is a definite keep.

Hope this helps, this is what I would do.

[ottofromorbit]

I picked up dredge a few weeks ago and have been grinding a ton of games with it since to get to know the deck. But in my testing I've come across dozens of openers that I'm not sure if they're keepable or not. So I wanted to post a handful of hands and see what everyone here thinks of them. Assume that you're running the quad lazer style list, you're playing against a completely unknown opponent, and say weather or not you'd keep and if play or draw would influence your decision. Also if they seem to be especially weird explain how you'd play them out over the first couple turns or hope that they would go. Also if there was one cosmetic but impactful change, such as having a looting instead of a careful study, would you keep it then?

Hand #1
2 cabal therapy, putrid imp, 3 gemstone mine, 1 narcomeba

I'd mull this. need a dredger or cantrip please.

Hand #2
2 gemstone mine, 2 careful study, 1 faithless looting, 1 dread return, 1 coliseum

um..Id keep 3-4 cantrips... it's a gamble but your drawing into alot. you should....should...hit a dredger and some other goodies. thats me tho.

Hand #3
2 coliseum, 1 LED, 1 bridge, 1 grave troll, 1 narcomeba, 1 ichorid

sketchy... mull this if on draw. go for it if on play. if led resolved ok t2 play that 2nd coliseum then crack led for 3 blue and dredge that troll with both coliseums and hopefully chain into other dredgers.

Hand #4
1 gemstone mine, 1 grave troll, 1 LED, 1 breakthrough, 3 narcome

yuck...3 narcs in hand is no good.. mull this immediately. relying solely on ichorids is poor plan with drs and oozes around.


Hand #5
1 gemstone mine, 1 grave troll, 2 careful study, 2 bridge, 1 ichorid

this is a keeper on play but if on draw and gemstone gets wastelanded before you cantrip into an extra land the fun's over

Hand #6
1 LED, 1 grave troll, 1 stinkweed imp, 1 bridge, 1 ichorid, 1 narcomeba, 1 looting

no land...i dont like this. but i like to gamble so,,ok on the play but i wouldn't keep this on draw. t1 led, t2 during upkeep crack led for 3 red to cast looting and dredge that imp and hopefully another,,discard them, ,,,then dredge for draw step and grind it out.

Hand #7
2 cabal therapy, 1 putrid imp, 3 city of brass, 1 narcomeba

yuck... no dredgers or cantrips maybe discarding fun but no balls your out classed by t3.. mull this

Hand #8
1 gemstone mine, 1 careful study, 1 stinkweed imp, 1 dread return, 1 ichorid, 2 bridge

hmph,,, mull this on play maybe try it on draw.. it could roll out ok. t1 draw a card and discard that imp at end turn. t2 draw again, play gemstone. t3 during upkeep careful study into some goodies and discard dredger and bridge then dredge for your draw step and that should get you back into the game quickly. the bridge, ichorid and dr in hand is typically an instant mull.. the study helps but t3 may be too late. and outraced again.

Hand #9
2 LED, 1 gemstone mine, 1 coliseum, 1 careful study, 2 break through

oh man... id keep it. i like drawing into stuff and going all in. with those leds.
t1 led,led, gemstone, careful study. t2 cast breakthrough and dump everything likely dredger in there. then crack other led for 3blu on coliseum then youll likely crack other led for a looting. and grind from there.

After playing a ton of goldfish games with the deck I'm pretty sure I have a handle on which of those hands are acceptable and which should be sent back as tempting as they might seem. Still I would love to hear what other people have to say on the more interesting hands that we could get.

lots of risky moves in dredge but the odds are pretty generous. the odds are in our favor so it usually works out if you keep and resolve cantrips.

[tyriion]

You can not cast faithless looting in your upkeep, it's still a sorcery. Just try playing some of those hands if you can't do the math like me. But dredge rewards risky moves. (sometimes, other times you get kicked in the nuts)

[ottofromorbit]

You can not cast faithless looting in your upkeep, it's still a sorcery. Just try playing some of those hands if you can't do the math like me. But dredge rewards risky moves. (sometimes, other times you get kicked in the nuts)

Hand 6 yes of course, reverse that order. Dredge your draw then main phase try to resolve looting. Thanks for correcting me.
I'd probly just mull that hand. We can win mulling down to 4,
Interesting post Stokpile
Any other input on play vs draw, I'm still not practiced enough?

[caesar]

I picked up dredge a few weeks ago and have been grinding a ton of games with it since to get to know the deck. But in my testing I've come across dozens of openers that I'm not sure if they're keepable or not. So I wanted to post a handful of hands and see what everyone here thinks of them. Assume that you're running the quad lazer style list, you're playing against a completely unknown opponent, and say weather or not you'd keep and if play or draw would influence your decision. Also if they seem to be especially weird explain how you'd play them out over the first couple turns or hope that they would go. Also if there was one cosmetic but impactful change, such as having a looting instead of a careful study, would you keep it then?

Hand #1
2 cabal therapy, putrid imp, 3 gemstone mine, 1 narcomeba


Hand #2
2 gemstone mine, 2 careful study, 1 faithless looting, 1 dread return, 1 coliseum


Hand #3
2 coliseum, 1 LED, 1 bridge, 1 grave troll, 1 narcomeba, 1 ichorid


Hand #4
1 gemstone mine, 1 grave troll, 1 LED, 1 breakthrough, 3 narcomeba


Hand #5
1 gemstone mine, 1 grave troll, 2 careful study, 2 bridge, 1 ichorid


Hand #6
1 LED, 1 grave troll, 1 stinkweed imp, 1 bridge, 1 ichorid, 1 narcomeba, 1 looting


Hand #7
2 cabal therapy, 1 putrid imp, 3 city of brass, 1 narcomeba


Hand #8
1 gemstone mine, 1 careful study, 1 stinkweed imp, 1 dread return, 1 ichorid, 2 bridge


Hand #9
2 LED, 1 gemstone mine, 1 coliseum, 1 careful study, 2 break through


After playing a ton of goldfish games with the deck I'm pretty sure I have a handle on which of those hands are acceptable and which should be sent back as tempting as they might seem. Still I would love to hear what other people have to say on the more interesting hands that we could get.

Hey stokpile, nice questions, I am also new to dredge and may tend to keep more hands as I should. Very short answers:
#1 dont keep no dredger
#2 keep, has many outlets which is favorable if your opponent is playing blue
#3 keep, it has a lot of potential to turn 2-3 tableflip
#4 dont keep, 3 narcomoebas is really bad
#5 your average hand, I tend to keep but can easily see mulliganing here
#6 keep, why is this hand even on the list.
#7 same as hand #1
#8 dont keep, this looks to weak even if careful study doenst get countered
#9 keep, easy keep

[stokpile]

So it seems that keeping hands that are heavy on loot effects but without a dredger are ok depending on how many you have. I've been going with a personal rule of at least 2 loot effects and something that can help me slingshot ahead like a break through if I miss on the first two turns to make up for lost time. The hands that I've been the most worried about are ones like hand 8 and 5. They seem good, but have several cards that we do not want in our hand ever. Like a hand full of birdges or ichorids makes me want to mull because we have to loot away the dredgers and the bridge and still hit another dredger next turn. So if we don't hit a Pimp or a LED the hand is deceptively slow with all the loots spent dumping essential cards. Dredging a ton is pointless if you're not hitting your pay off cards.

I was looking at it the same way that I would look at a opener of affinity in modern. There's a ton of 0-1 mana artifacts, but without a cranial plating the hand is terrible. A dredge hand that can dredge a lot but isn't likely to hit a bridge for a while might not actually accomplish anything. Is this wrong?

I can understand not keeping a hand without much action even though you can cast therapy 4 times right away. I suppose you just end up giving your opponent time to draw out of it if there's no action on your end afterwords. Like hand 1 might be fine if you know what to name on the first one, but the other version of that hand with all pain lands is a bit too much I think.

[Que]

Hand #1
2 cabal therapy, putrid imp, 3 gemstone mine, 1 narcomeba

Hand #2
2 gemstone mine, 2 careful study, 1 faithless looting, 1 dread return, 1 coliseum

Hand #3
2 coliseum, 1 LED, 1 bridge, 1 grave troll, 1 narcomeba, 1 ichorid

Hand #4
1 gemstone mine, 1 grave troll, 1 LED, 1 breakthrough, 3 narcomeba

Hand #5
1 gemstone mine, 1 grave troll, 2 careful study, 2 bridge, 1 ichorid

Hand #6
1 LED, 1 grave troll, 1 stinkweed imp, 1 bridge, 1 ichorid, 1 narcomeba, 1 looting

Hand #7
2 cabal therapy, 1 putrid imp, 3 city of brass, 1 narcomeba

Hand #8
1 gemstone mine, 1 careful study, 1 stinkweed imp, 1 dread return, 1 ichorid, 2 bridge

Hand #9
2 LED, 1 gemstone mine, 1 coliseum, 1 careful study, 2 break through


I haven't read any other comments so as to not change my original line of thought lol. You can ask me about a particular scenario so I can give more insight. I might start to get lazy towards the end. hah.

Comments on Hand #1: (Mull) You have no dredger and no gas (i.e no Careful Study, Faithless Looting, Cephalid, Breakthrough,etc.)

Comments on Hand #2: (Keep) I think I'll take my odds here. You have multiple study effects and an already dead Dread Return you can automatically bin off one of the study effects. (assuming you were on the play) If they don't tap out their first turn you have the ability to wait an additional turn to play around a potential Spell Pierce. You just have soo many live draws that I would definitely just keep this.

Comments on Hand #3: (Keep Tentatively) This is simply relying on the Coliseum with the GraveTroll draw and you already have a guaranteed Ichorid, though the earliest this guy is coming back is turn 3. On the play I would simply drop the LED and pass. On your turn 2 draw up to 7, drop the coliseum and sacrifice the LED for 3 Blue mana reaching threshold and getting to activate the Coliseum and dredging. If you're on the draw go up to 8 on your turn, drop Coliseum, drop LED and crack it to "go off". My reasoning is that if you're not going to actually use the coliseum the same turn then don't drop it unless you know your opponent is definitely not running wasteland. Then I can see a reason for waiting until next turn to get double activations. Its all in context over the first couple of turns...

Comments on Hand #4: (Mull Tentatively) This hand is pretty risky altogether. Not only because you already have 3 Narcos (trust me Ichorids and zombies can still get the job done), but because you really want to hit the Faithless Looting during this sequence. Assuming we don't brick on the first 6 (this is also the assumption in Hand 3) we would ideally like to see some number of Ichorids and bridges.

Comments on Hand #5: (Keep) You have 2 outlets and a dredger.

Comments on Hand #6: (Keep) Drop LED, crack it and here we go. You at least see 11 cards with a bridge and an Ichorid already in the bin. With this you know you'll be able to additionally dredge another 11 cards over the next couple of turns at least. Most decks wont be able to keep up with the value dredge puts out anyway.

Comments on Hand #7: (Mull) Look at reasoning for Hand #1. Your best play is to drop Putrid Imp turn 1. On your turn 2 Draw a card and Cast Therapy based on what he/she is playing and having the ability to cast the 2nd one and even potentially flashing back by saccing the Putrid Imp (seemingly bad unless the card you drew for your turn was a dredger to start the engine) to leave your opponent with no hand. How the rest of the turns play out is anyone's guess, but overall the hand is pretty mediocre as the best your hoping for is a slow dredge.

Comments on Hand #8: (Keep) But I hate these hands because the 1 outlet you have will have to get you there much like Hand #6. But at least you can bin a dredger and an Ichorid assuming we didn't hit another dredger off the draw 2. Bridges in your hand aren't the worst in multiples at least since you can Therapy yourself to get them in the yard. the dread return in hand is not good, but watevs unless you're on the cute combo finish it being stuck in your hand don't matter. It all depends on what your Draw 2 shows off the Careful Study. Dx It just seems weird mulling a hand with an enabler and the dredger, but if you hit no gas off the 2 its going to be rough.

Comments on Hand #9: (Keep) My sentiments mirroring my comments on Hand #2. A lot of live draws and gas.



The hands that I've been the most worried about are ones like hand 8 and 5. They seem good, but have several cards that we do not want in our hand ever. Like a hand full of birdges or ichorids makes me want to mull because we have to loot away the dredgers and the bridge and still hit another dredger next turn. So if we don't hit a Pimp or a LED the hand is deceptively slow with all the loots spent dumping essential cards. Dredging a ton is pointless if you're not hitting your pay off cards.

I get this, however, you do have therapy to get them out of your hand and I've done this multiple times. If your dredges are fortunate you might even get at least a zombie out of the deal, but yeah Saccing an Ichorid to strip yourself of Bridges is not the worst plan. But thats not to say the anecdote you gave is incorrect. And for that reason I can see maindecking at least a miser's Phantasmagorian so that when we have cards stuck in our hand we can still bin them with its ability.

[stokpile]

@ Que
You pretty much echo my concerns for most of the hands. I suppose we can rely on casting therapy on ourselves later on when we have a lot of bridges/ichorids in hand, but it sure is awkward not getting any zombie action for a lot of consecutive turns.

I was curious about your response on hand 3 with the double coliseum and LED. Would you not rather wait an extra turn so that you can LED for blue and double activate the coliseum? It is still a potential 6 dredges in a single turn, the same as break through + looting flash back, which typically leads to a win on the spot if you're playing with a zealot or just a massive army next turn, assuming you don't brick hard. Or is the fear of wasteland strong enough to not want to delay it a turn?

[Que]

@ Que
You pretty much echo my concerns for most of the hands. I suppose we can rely on casting therapy on ourselves later on when we have a lot of bridges/ichorids in hand, but it sure is awkward not getting any zombie action for a lot of consecutive turns.

I was curious about your response on hand 3 with the double coliseum and LED. Would you not rather wait an extra turn so that you can LED for blue and double activate the coliseum? It is still a potential 6 dredges in a single turn, the same as break through + looting flash back, which typically leads to a win on the spot if you're playing with a zealot or just a massive army next turn, assuming you don't brick hard. Or is the fear of wasteland strong enough to not want to delay it a turn?

I think its all dependent on the board state and what deck they're playing. But yeah having the 2nd Coliseum is just game. You can probably wait, I was just imagining a scenario where they might drop a RIP next turn or perhaps peel a Cage off the top etc.. anything that would derail you before you go off so I was thinking that sometimes waiting can be detrimental.

[FrabjousDaze]

"Containment Priest
1W
Creature - Human Cleric
Flash

If a nontoken creature would enter the battlefield and it wasn't cast, exile it instead."

How bad is this for us? I realize it is powerful hate, but how powerful?

[ottofromorbit]

"Containment Priest
1W
Creature - Human Cleric
Flash

If a nontoken creature would enter the battlefield and it wasn't cast, exile it instead."

How bad is this for us? I realize it is powerful hate, but how powerful?

drs, yixlid jailer, ooze . I panicked each time i saw these released and they still havent stopped our game
they all die to firestorm or chain of vapor into therapy.
if he sides it in and wrecks us game 2 then we deal with it game 3.
business as usual.
however... Ive faced an opponent that sided in a cage a rip and ooze. messed up.
It looks like I'm dusting off the chain of vapor while players test the out and realize it doesnt work when they want it to.
Also siding abrupt decays and a few lotus petals can brighten your day.

[mario91234]

split finals of a 1k IQ yesterday. Played the following matchups: stasis, mud, infect (no crop rotates), UR delver, punishing maverick, infect (same guy). Vs infect i brought in the spare cities over mines and firestorms. Not sure if seize shouldve come in. I think cutting a decay might be fine for something to help vs UR.

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
2 City of Brass
4 Bridge from Below
3 Putrid Imp
3 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
SB: 3 Lotus Petal
SB: 1 Dread Return
SB: 1 Ashen Rider
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 City of Brass
SB: 3 Firestorm

[stokpile]

This may have been mentioned before, but since I feel this is the most important any dredge player can ask themselves I feel it's worth repeating. After we flash back dread return to get 12 zombies and then shout out at the top of our lungs "Achievement Unlocked," because after all it's obvious everyone does that, the real question we have to ask is just what zombie tokens are you throwing at your opponent chaos orb style? I've been partial to using as many different zombie tokens with as varied art as possible. It truly captures the essence of the nondiscriminatory zombie horde coming to eat your brains since the undead welcome all into their ranks.

[Holly]

Agreed, as many different Zombies as possible.. Oh and whats even more important:
Do NOT sleeve them.
For the next step please do not use your underpants but regular jeans for this.
Put the whole deck of Zombie-Tokens in your pockets of your pants.
Again, do not put them into your underpants but regular jeans pockets.
Impress everyone with tattered Zombie-Tokens while mumbling and slurping "braaainnsss".

[stokpile]

Agreed, as many different Zombies as possible.. Oh and whats even more important:
Do NOT sleeve them.
For the next step please do not use your underpants but regular jeans for this.
Put the whole deck of Zombie-Tokens in your pockets of your pants.
Again, do not put them into your underpants but regular jeans pockets.
Impress everyone with tattered Zombie-Tokens while mumbling and slurping "braaainnsss".

Heh, I like where your head is at.

Also there is an odd take on dredge playing on SCG live right now with fetch lands, duals, no LED or looting and it's up a game against miracles. Strange stuff.

[gibbousm]

Personally, I use custom zombie tokens made on a thick card stock paper which I keep sleeved. Underneath those slips of card stock, within the sleeves, are Innistrad zombie tokens with Cynthia Sheppard or Lucas Graciano art. This is to allow me to have twice as many zombies as it appears I do and to play more zombies when I run out (I think my record is 36 zombies).
I would like to pick up some Dave Kendall art zombie tokens from Mirrodin Besieged which have pretty sweet art. There are some artists I'd like to get custom zombies from, but I do like the ones I currently have.

[feline]

Grats on the trophy Dredge!

[stokpile]

Grats on the trophy Dredge!

Since I'll be running dredge in NJ I'm inclined to say "Damn you for reminding people that we're around!" The best trick dredge ever pulled was convincing the metagame that it doesn't exist. But in all seriousness, good job indeed.

EDIT: Is there any merit to running a darkblast over a golgari thug? I know that the card is potentially awesome right now, but it seems like we're so unlikely to be able to take advantage of it. By that I mean casting it regularly in such a land light deck. Also, is it even necessary? I'd think that the decks that it's best against (elves, DnT, UR delver) we're already huge favorites to begin with.

[Parcher]

Congratulations Que! Would have mentioned something sooner, but I didn't know that was you taking down the whole thing.

It's a nice boost to see more people do well with my lists. Though I admit, I was a bit taken aback by the Crypts. No matter. Well done. I think I'll be running Chains in those slots now. Ways to deal with Reanimator, Leyline, CPriest, etc. But everything else seemed spot on. Probably add the Fstorm back now with the new gravehatebear.

@stokpile: There are many reasons I went to the Dblast. It's always a discard outlet of sorts, which is nice. It has always been good against stuff like Elves and D&T. It straight beats Infect. And right now, it's sick against Bob's deck. Which is tied for #1 with Miracles.

What most don't realize is that it protects your Ichorids from Plow and Terminus. As well as potentially saving your Bridges. And my favorite use is harcasting Narcos and Thugs against a Cage. If they refuse to kill them when you have Bridges, you wait for the opportune moment and.....Zombies! You can even do the Thug/Narco interaction if you need fliers to block or break tbrough. Though that does cost a lot of life. The one loss of a dredge is made up in utility far more often than not.

[Que]

Thanks Parcher! Yeah I liked the Lotus Petal Abrupt sideboard. Although I didn't cast a single Abrupt Decay that day, the lotus petals were amazing and I think that if you're a dredge player you need to have them.

My maindeck was still my same list from before bringing back Breakthrough over Street Wraith. The only change was the 13th dredger(Darkblast) over one Breakthrough. I included it because I wanted to avoid bricking which was happening an infrequent amount of times the night before when playtesting. I was thinking Shambling Shell at first because not only did it dredge for the same amount, but I could also use it as Ichorid fodder. In the end Darkblast is just more versatile.

Took down SCG Oakland with the following: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=75647

The rounds went as followed:
Round 1. Chung C. with Elves, 1-0
Round 2. Andrew with Nic Fit BUG, 2-0
Round 3. Stephen with Death & Taxes, 3-0
Round 4. Dylan F.(9th) with U/G Post, 3-1
This was my only loss in the swiss. I felt the matchup was pretty good barring Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog. After taking game 1, I was on my way to taking the match when I made a mistake exiling the incorrect permanent with Ashen Rider which cost me the game over the next couple of turns. In game 3 I mulled to 4 and it didn't last that long. In the end I accepted that I basically threw away the match in that game 2 and I had to move on. I just made it harder for myself.
Round 5. John with Burn, 4-1
Round 6. Chang C. with Burn, 5-1
Round 7. Brett with Goblins, 6-1
At this point I thought I had just won my win and in, however, because the rankings were so close I would be forced to play out the last round in order to make the top 8.
Round 8. Max M.(15th) with Tin Fins, 7-1

Top 8.
Jonathan Betts (7th) with Sneak and Show, Win 2-0.
Game 1 He show and tells in an Emrakul and on my turn I dredge all 4 Narcos with 3 bridge from below. On his turn he attacks and annihilates my board giving me 12 zombies to attack him with on my turn. Game 2 I go off turn 1 with the aid of Lotus petal.

Top 4:
Glen Jones (4th) with UR Delver, Win 2-0
Finals
Jimmy De La Cruz (2nd) with BUG Delver, win 2-1

The coverage can be found here: http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/584191404
The game against Jones begins around 33:55

idk about GP Jersey with the containment priest coming out. At this point I feel like I don't have time to be testing anything else though and I probably have the best chance to top with this as its what I feel most comfortable with.

[stokpile]

@stokpile: There are many reasons I went to the Dblast. It's always a discard outlet of sorts, which is nice. It has always been good against stuff like Elves and D&T. It straight beats Infect. And right now, it's sick against Bob's deck. Which is tied for #1 with Miracles.

What most don't realize is that it protects your Ichorids from Plow and Terminus. As well as potentially saving your Bridges. And my favorite use is harcasting Narcos and Thugs against a Cage. If they refuse to kill them when you have Bridges, you wait for the opportune moment and.....Zombies! You can even do the Thug/Narco interaction if you need fliers to block or break tbrough. Though that does cost a lot of life. The one loss of a dredge is made up in utility far more often than not.

Ah ok I didn't think of protecting ichorids with them, that makes a ton more sense. I know that there's a lot of decks that can't beat darkblast, I wasn't sure if it was worth it since those decks are usually pretty easy to begin with. But with the other utility you mentioned they definitely seem super good. I'm really looking forward to GP NJ, just a short 90 minute drive from home, so I want to make sure I ask every question I can since I don't get to jam legacy too much.

[ottofromorbit]

So Oakland had a 1st 10th and 11th placing. Looks like they ran the same record. 2-0 records will def help us place better than 2-1. If we can predict to proper antihate without ruining our flow.
Very dominating since we've been quiet lately.
I would like to hear which antihate they had to run and vs which deck.
The LEDless with fetchlands and hapless researcher looks interesting.

[gibbousm]

well as someone who is fairly new to Dredge, I'm curious to know how you chose to sideboard, especially with regards to the Petals and extra lands.

[ottofromorbit]

well as someone who is fairly new to Dredge, I'm curious to know how you chose to sideboard, especially with regards to the Petals and extra lands.


Personally ...
I'm maindecking 3 petals and the 12 lands.
They help a lot when facing other combo races. And permission decks might misplay and waste a counter on a petal putting me on belcher for game 1 or just cantrip twice turn 1 into the goodies and go off. Or just makes abrupt decay playable turn 1.
play around wastelands.

the best experience is experience. luck will get better when your confidence in your design tech improves.
theres tons of great posts in this forum. troll around the 1300's and 2400's ...parcher posted a decent sb strategy i agree in post #3202.

[Mastikor]

Hi all,
I'm new to dredge, just built it, currently goldfishing and discovering possibilities. I was wondering: has anyone considered Brainstorm as an angine for this deck? It seems decent with the Putrid Imp lists, and while it doesn's fill the grave by itself, it can improve clunky hands with Narcos and Bridges and find the needed pieces postboard. I know some vintage lists run Ancestral, so it might be worth trying. The difficult part is what to take out. I was thinking some number of Breakthrough/Careful Studies. Thoughts?

edit: Congrats on the winning Que, good games!

[Parcher]

Hi all,
I'm new to dredge, just built it, currently goldfishing and discovering possibilities. I was wondering: has anyone considered Brainstorm as an angine for this deck? It seems decent with the Putrid Imp lists, and while it doesn's fill the grave by itself, it can improve clunky hands with Narcos and Bridges and find the needed pieces postboard. I know some vintage lists run Ancestral, so it might be worth trying. The difficult part is what to take out. I was thinking some number of Breakthrough/Careful Studies. Thoughts?

edit: Congrats on the winning Que, good games!

There are many, many reasons why Brianstorm doesn't fit, and/or work in this deck. And I've tried every configuration. The one most definitive reason to me is; if you only have two dredgers, and you use Brainstorm to dredge, you HAVE to put those back on top of your library. Your hand has to be empty(so you can never even try this with LED), and you have to miss on hitting a third dredger(even worse if you only had one to begin). But if this happens, you lose.

[ottofromorbit]

ya . maybe it could get you out of a bad draw but its like winds of change. too many occasions where i needed a discard outlet. even hapless researcher outperforms brainstorm. for 1cc you get another creature for a dread return or therapy
it plays through thalia, chump blocker, can sac instantly for bridge trigger or save a dredger from singleton gravehate with that draw effect, can be topdecked with thug if needed, castable with coliseum.
ultimately i think after 20 games i could see how it will disappoint us more than it save us.
heck im still debating tolarian winds for the turn one win. the meta with permission decks makes it a bad gamble and gut wrenching when it doesn't resolve.
oh boy...but when it goes...
gg's

[alaska]

Welp, played against Containment Priest for the first time today, that wasn't fun. Legacy side event to a PTQ in Seattle, around 60 people.

I went 3-3. Could have been a lot worse, considering I didn't playtest at all, and had only used dredge at one weekly event prior to this.

My matchups:

Mono-Red Sneak & Breach (lost 0-2, he had nuts draws and ended up in T8, but looks like a solid deck).

Sneak & Show (won 2-0, he had no grave hate)

Stage Depths (lost 1-2, nearly went to time, had no bounce answers to Marit Lage tokens)

TES (won 2-0, got incredibly lucky first game as he Ad Naus for about 20 cards, still couldn't win, and just died)

UWR Blade DTT Control (lost 1-2, containment priest is pretty tricky, opponent also ended up in T8 playing against a pro player)

Affinity/Tezzerator/something (won 2-1, ichorid beatdown).



I didn't see a single RIP all day. In terms of hate I saw containment priest once, a relic of progenitus, a surgical extraction, and a leyline of the void.

Dredge seems powerful. I'm going to keep playing it for now, and I've been lurking this thread for awhile.

[gibbousm]

So I've seen for the most part 3 different anti-hate sideboard set ups for Dredge:

Abrupt Decay with extra lands and petals to reliably cast it.
Ingot Chewer + Whispmare
Ancient Grudge + Ray of Revelation
(all 3 tend to have some number of Chain of Vapors and Nature's Claims)

I'm currently trying to decide which one to construct myself.


Decay gives uncounterable which means the hate will always get removed but even with the extra mana sources 2 mana is still hard to hit, it is however very versatile, yet it cannot deal with greater than 3 CMC cards such as Leyline or Moat.
Ingot Chewer + Whispmare while counterable don't get hit with spell pierce and can trigger Bridges, Chewer being more likely to do so. They also are much harder for Counterbalance decks to stop.
Ancient Grudge + Ray of Revelation have flashback meaning they can be cast after being milled which makes them better against non-hate cards, but if we don't have access to our graveyard because of hate, they need to be cast from hand as 2 mana spells, which is relatively hard to do in this deck considering how few mana sources Dredge tends to run.


All 3 have their own strengths, but in the current meta which would be best and why?

[Darklingske]

Since most hate nowadays is Cage & RiP, I'd go for the Decay + Petals SB. I also expect to see Containment Priest pop up in various Sbs, so don't leave your Firestorms at home. And what of Leyline of the Void, you may ask? Well, if someone is playing LotV and plants it T0 on the table, I'm happy (sort of) to take that loss, because you can't Always be winning

[bhsman]

Since most hate nowadays is Cage & RiP, I'd go for the Decay + Petals SB. I also expect to see Containment Priest pop up in various Sbs, so don't leave your Firestorms at home. And what of Leyline of the Void, you may ask? Well, if someone is playing LotV and plants it T0 on the table, I'm happy (sort of) to take that loss, because you can't Always be winning

Dredge newbie here, but at least Containment Priest only cares about nontoken creatures, so overwhelming a Hatebears/D&T deck with Zombie tokens would still be viable, right? Short of their creatures dying triggering the exile of Bridge, right?

[jimmythegreek]

Dredge newbie here, but at least Containment Priest only cares about nontoken creatures, so overwhelming a Hatebears/D&T deck with Zombie tokens would still be viable, right? Short of their creatures dying triggering the exile of Bridge, right?

Problem being that our creatures come into play through triggers, hence not being cast. This card could prove problematic if it sees mass play and definetly pack firestorm.

[Klazam]

How the hell am i supposed to win vs UR delver? Im getting frustated at this matchup. I have like a 0% winrate there

[laststepdown]

This may have been mentioned before, but since I feel this is the most important any dredge player can ask themselves I feel it's worth repeating. After we flash back dread return to get 12 zombies and then shout out at the top of our lungs "Achievement Unlocked," because after all it's obvious everyone does that, the real question we have to ask is just what zombie tokens are you throwing at your opponent chaos orb style? I've been partial to using as many different zombie tokens with as varied art as possible. It truly captures the essence of the nondiscriminatory zombie horde coming to eat your brains since the undead welcome all into their ranks.

I use Unglued zombie tokens. Each one signed by Christopher Rush.

pic.twitter.com/eRU3P5ewVD

[stokpile]

I was wondering just how viable the DDD plan is with a LED version of dredge. I've tried keeping hands where my only action was a putrid imp and some dredgers or a single loot and it has always seemed to be much too slow. Was this just a string of bad luck on my end and this is a legit plan sometimes, or should I be looking to ship those hands that don't have an explosive opening potential?

[ottofromorbit]

How the hell am i supposed to win vs UR delver? Im getting frustated at this matchup. I have like a 0% winrate there

I agree, odds can run in there favor against most decks.
I have limited experience vs UR aswell.
I have a player in my group on stoneblade. I feel like its my kryptonite. 'always seem to be mulling to 4 or he draws like a champ. Just brutal. If I draw the hands I normally draw I'd destroy his hand then his life points with little effort.
Sb strategy tips are nice. Meta gameplay strategy would help.
Should we bin a dredger early and slow dredge into ichorids narcs and therapies for 3 turns then bust out and play 3-4 spells and hope to overwhelm? They run grafdiggers so they counter the antihate peice we have. maybe running petals and decays vs them is our only option for sb. Even firestorms are good.
It's tough.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

I just played in the Columbus Legacy open.
9 rounds, and if I remember correctly 5 of them were against U/R delver. I did lose against one of them, good player, he just drew the nuts every game.
In the four matches that I won against U/R, Twice I had to win game 3 with a Narcomoeba beat down.
Went 6-3 and I have to tell you, death and taxes was almost impossible.
Dredge did what dredge does game one, but that deck just main boards things that make the match horrific.
Then their sideboard isn't even fair. My opponent also simply top decked every single thing he needed in order to win,
U/R delver was never really an issue, and I never thought I was in danger of losing, even the match I lost honestly.
The only time I thought I was in serious danger was against death and taxes.

Also sideboarding in general is a nightmare for me. I can never figure out, what to take out.

[Brentane]

I know this maybe a weird question, but I'm building this deck as a side project because I do not have a deck that focuses on using the whole graveyard as a resource. Any how, I'm wondering what colour best suits the deck. Gold, black, brown, green, blue, etc. because I'm debating what colour sleeves to use to sleeve it up. I was thinking gold as it is 5 colours, but I don't know if that suits its flavour.

[Klazam]

I rock gold dragonshields. It looks real good.

[gibbousm]

Personally I used yellow for the deck and purple for my zombie horde. No reason in particular, just wanted to use sleeves that stand out against my dark playmat.

[bhsman]

Personally I used yellow for the deck and purple for my zombie horde. No reason in particular, just wanted to use sleeves that stand out against my dark playmat.

Speaking as an LSU fan, purple and gold is a great color combination. :cool:

[gibbousm]

So Richard Feldman wrote an article on Dredge for the upcoming GPNJ this weekend. Can be found here (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/29716_Dredge-At-Grand-Prix-New-Jersey.html?fb_comment_id=fbc_746382238763181_746461645421907_746461645421907#f18cc8ec9c)

Some controversial there with cutting the Putrid Imps form the main deck to make room for 14 lands, full sets of draw spells, and Griselbrand + DR.
I'm curious what people think about it.

The card I'm most interested in is the Reveillark to combat board wipes. As most creatures in the deck can be returned by it after a board wipe resolves, this leaves you with some beaters, preferably 2 Trolls after getting Terminused. It can also be saced to Therapy to net 2 creatures + zombies for other DR.

Thoughts on the article?

[Noctalor]

So Richard Feldman wrote an article on Dredge for the upcoming GPNJ this weekend. Can be found here (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/29716_Dredge-At-Grand-Prix-New-Jersey.html?fb_comment_id=fbc_746382238763181_746461645421907_746461645421907#f18cc8ec9c)

Some controversial there with cutting the Putrid Imps form the main deck to make room for 14 lands, full sets of draw spells, and Griselbrand + DR.
I'm curious what people think about it.

The card I'm most interested in is the Reveillark to combat board wipes. As most creatures in the deck can be returned by it after a board wipe resolves, this leaves you with some beaters, preferably 2 Trolls after getting Terminused. It can also be saced to Therapy to net 2 creatures + zombies for other DR.

Thoughts on the article?

His list is very bad imho, you have to run solutions or petals in your 75, play no one is pretty bad, basicly you cant win after hate happens and you dont run the fastest possible version?

Also Iona imho is always worth the slot.

And ofc no fucks were given about european lists :smile:

[Klazam]

Agreed. Im running iona as my sole dr target preboard, and shes a beating.

[Sintheros]

His list is very bad imho, you have to run solutions or petals in your 75, play no one is pretty bad, basicly you cant win after hate happens and you dont run the fastest possible version?

Also Iona imho is always worth the slot.

And ofc no fucks were given about european lists :smile:

Aren't the petals and the abrupts sided in mutally exclusive to eachother? That's what Parcher always appears to do (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23432-Deck-Dredge&p=814446&viewfull=1#post814446) anyway.

[Noctalor]

Aren't the petals and the abrupts sided in mutally exclusive to eachother? That's what Parcher always appears to do (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23432-Deck-Dredge&p=814446&viewfull=1#post814446) anyway.

Petals are in for 2 reasons, one is support Decay if you run it, the other is to go yolo mode in certain MU and just try to outrace the hate, if you think about it you are going to win turn 1/2 most of the times being able to get an extra mana on turn one, also you get some chance to start counterproof using therapy first, and its not bad at all.

Ofc if you go no solution mode you will bring in petals, because you have some decent chance to lose turn1 facing a Cage or a well placed DRS, you need at least to be able to rush as fast as possible.
Uh also that list have a pretty low number of pitch for Ichorid, 8 dredgers + 3 ichorid + 1 grisel is like 2 to 3 cards less than needed in my experience.


Btw choosing to have no solution means that you plan to play 15 turns of swiss and to face hate like 2 times?
I would rather go on All Spell if that's the plan tbh.

[stokpile]

His list is very bad imho, you have to run solutions or petals in your 75, play no one is pretty bad, basicly you cant win after hate happens and you dont run the fastest possible version?

Also Iona imho is always worth the slot.

And ofc no fucks were given about european lists :smile:

I'm not a fan of the proposed list either, but I do however LOVE the idea of reveilark against miracles. I have no idea if it's worth it since miracles isn't the worst match up in existence, but damn is it a clever idea. I'm starting to wonder if a 4th breakthrough is needed or some other form of nitro boost because as fast as the delver decks can jump on top of you I've found myself struggling a lot where I'm only dredging once per turn lately. If they stop either my pimp or my first loot I just feel like I'm way too slow to beat any reasonable draw from them.

[Anusien]

If you cut Putrid Imp from the maindeck, you probably don't want it in the sideboard either, freeing up a few more slots.

[b-durk]

I'm going to be playing Dredge in Legacy for the foreseeable future, and just recently picked up the missing cards that I need.

I've read through some of the posts here and the recent articles pertaining to the deck. My biggest question: how do you determine the amount of dredgers, discards outlets, draw effects, and lands?

I'm seeing varying numbers on all this stuff and could use some guidance. I want to know so I can figure out what I can make room for in other slots, plus improve my mulligans; the recipe for a keepable hand appears to be a draw/discard spell + dredger + a land.

My impression is that you want 13 dredgers and at least 13 lands, but the other categories are a bit tricky. Faithless Looting and Careful Study are everything you want: extra draw for dredging and putting the dredgers back in the yard. As for Putrid Imp, Cephalid Coliseum, and Breakthrough they all serve specific roles but also don't do everything you want all the time.

Like obviously you typically can't keep a hand that only has Coliseum as a discard outlet. If a hand that can only Breakthrough for zero strong enough to slow dredge after that? Can you really just pop off LED as a way to dump all dredgers without extra draw spells on the stack? All of these scenarios seem unsettling slow, which is why the deck mulligans a decent amount; however, where do you draw the line on minimum copies of draw/discard effects and which ones?

[Anusien]

You want as many of each as possible, and you probably want them in roughly equal numbers. It is my experience that dredging one card a turn is not fast enough in most matchups to win. I would not keep a 7 card hand with a dredger, discard outlet (and mana) but no way to draw cards. I also wouldn't keep Land, Land, Troll, Breakthrough, Breakthrough, 2 blanks (although I would keep it if it had a Petal, even in place of one of the lands).

[Klazam]

Working on my sideboard, im not certian about a few things- do i need to run the nature's claims?

(Maindeck iona, no griselbrand, 3 ichorid, 4 cabal therapy, 2 Dread Return, 13 lands)

Sideboard looks like this-
3 abrupt decay
3 lotus petal
2 nature's claim
3 fae macabre
2 firestorm
1 darkblast (will swap for another firestorm, probably)
1 elesh Norn
1 ashen rider

[bhsman]

Traded for my first Lion's Eye Diamond and completed my playset of Therapies, so I'm starting down the road at least. :smile:

I do have a question, though: What was the general reaction to Hallowed Spiritkeeper (http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/hallowed-spiritkeeper/) from Commander 2014? I get the impression it's not a great DR target to begin with, but the fact that the tokens it creates have flying was intriguing for certain matchups.

[tyriion]

Traded for my first Lion's Eye Diamond and completed my playset of Therapies, so I'm starting down the road at least. :smile:

I do have a question, though: What was the general reaction to Hallowed Spiritkeeper (http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/hallowed-spiritkeeper/) from Commander 2014? I get the impression it's not a great DR target to begin with, but the fact that the tokens it creates have flying was intriguing for certain matchups.

Nope, way too small and low impact. Why that if you can return Elesh Norn, Iona, Griselbrand, Grave Troll etc.

[bhsman]

Nope, way too small and low impact. Why that if you can return Elesh Norn, Iona, Griselbrand, Grave Troll etc.

Yeah, like I said it struck me as a bad DR target to begin with, but I started lurking here around the time of GP Oakland and missed out on the discussion (well, I guess I could go back so many pages and trawl the discussion for the specific posts, but... :eek:)

[potatodavid]

Playing some legacy in the near future. I have a few decks but I always seem to come back to the dredge machine. Thinking about piloting this list into a meta that has a few Land's players and a few miracles players and at least 1-2 D&T players. 3 storm players too. Need some board suggestions. Here's what i got so far. I am going for the flayer kill game 1 because avoiding the attack phase seems smart.

Lands/Ramp:16
4x Cephalid Colosseum
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Confluence
4x LED

Creatures:24
3x Putrid Imp
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Grave Troll
4x Narcomeba
4x Ichorid
4x Golgari Thug
1x Flayer of the Hatebound

Spells: 20
3x Careful Study
4x Faithless Looting
2x Dread Return
3x Breakthrough
4x Bridge From Below
4x Cabal Therapy

Board:
2x Firestorm
3x Lotus Petal
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Iona
2x Dark Blast
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Chain Vapor

[Klazam]

Flayer requires 1 more dread return and 1 grisel. You wont get enough creatures in the gy otherwise.

[potatodavid]

Flayer requires 1 more dread return and 1 grisel. You wont get enough creatures in the gy otherwise.

Should I be running flamekin instead? I feel like I've been able to get the kill with flayer relatively easy in my testing by using the second DR on him. So he smacks for 9 over the 2 dread returns, because that's a GGT animation of only 11 in theory. Is that common knowledge to run gris in flayer strategy?

[Noctalor]

If you wanna flayer you wanna run something like 2 flayer 3 dread, so you can easily flayer into golgari into sac flayer for enought burst.

You can also run Grisel instead of a flayer because you should still be able to dredge into it if grisel appears and you get way more burst out of GGT, btw you may need an extra turn in order to setup the board because you will need like 9 creatures in order to fire all your dreads.

Btw i just find better to run grisel as the DR target, ofc if your meta run a good number of prisons you have to play some solutions, but i think 1/2 grisel into ashen rider should work better in general, they are all ichorid pitch if needed and usually you dont have to remove more than 2 pieces in order to win G1, considering you still have a turn 3/4 clock.

[Klazam]

Went 6-3 in the gp, lost the last match because i was a moron and kept a hand of 2 cephalid coliseum, 3 faithless looting, 1 ichorid, 1 cabal therapy.

If theres interest i can write up a tournament report with my sideboarding each match

[easysantiago]

Congrats! I am interested in reading your report.

[gibbousm]

Same, as someone still learning the deck, the more tournament reports, especially those with sideboarding discussion are greatly appreciated.

I really wanted to attend the GP, but I didn't have a ride or a hotel room, so I'm just rooting for my friend Elliot who managed to make day 2.

[Klazam]

Ill write it up when i get home (wednesday or so)

Immfairly certian i made several mistakes in sideboarding.

[stokpile]

I ended up finishing at X-3 as well. Oddly enough I only lost 2 games to sideboard cards, literally every other game/match I lost due to having to mulligan to 4-5, I died on turn 2 to show and tell, or not hitting a narcomoeba after forcing through a massive breakthrough dredge. I'm really glad that I played a flame-kin in the main because of how much show and tell and infect that I ran into, I had to race quite often. Other than that the deck preformed just as one would expect. I even managed to beat D&T when they drew a RIP, two thalia, and a containment priest which I was quite proud of and beat show and tell with the mediocre beats through triple cage thanks to hard cast ichorid giving me a giant army before he assembled a win. Dredge is officially my favorite deck to play since I started the game with necropotence way back in the day.

[Vandalize]

You want as many of each as possible, and you probably want them in roughly equal numbers. It is my experience that dredging one card a turn is not fast enough in most matchups to win. I would not keep a 7 card hand with a dredger, discard outlet (and mana) but no way to draw cards. I also wouldn't keep Land, Land, Troll, Breakthrough, Breakthrough, 2 blanks (although I would keep it if it had a Petal, even in place of one of the lands).

I would keep the first hand against Miracles only, but yeah, pretty sucky hand. The second hand I'd keep if I'm on the draw (DDD into Breakthrough can be good enough).

@thread

So guys, I've also jumped the Petal/Decay sideboard train. It's awesome, thanks for sharing. My latest list:

4 Mana Confluence
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 City of Brass
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 3 Lotus Petal
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Wispmare
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Dread Return
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 City of Brass

As much as I love Darkblast, I don't feel it's strong utility/dredging to justify running over the 13th Land main. Also, Sneak and Show isn't prevalent in my meta, making Ashen Rider not that necessary, so I decided to add Elesh Norn to deal with Elves (and to help the lack of Darkblast).

[ottofromorbit]

Hey guys
wow jersey was bonkers!
never been to anything that size ever.
sorry this is a poor tourney report, as its mostly a blur in my mind. i do remember game changing moments and thoughts on how i wish i ran a different sb.
i run basic maindeck with grisel and fkz 2 dr in main.
sb'd
3x abrupt decay
3x nature's claim
3x firestorms
2x fothb
1x iona
1x elesh

there were only a few instancea where i resolved 1 claim and 1 decay that flipped the game in my favor. The rest of the time just me flipping into half my gy and resolving triggers and zombie hordes crushing my opponents.
went 4-3 lost games were do to lack of experience and my "yolo" mulling. It went ok but bad goldfishing habits where I just kept god hands to combo off t1-t2 when they seemed to hold the hate. I was nervous and a bit reckless I will admit.(rookie mistake)

went 4-3, and most of my matches went 3 games. very experienced players. i got most wins when on play. lotus petals allowed me to bust out turn one like gangbusters. destroyed many dreams of grandeur and got my ass handed to me a few times over rookie mistakes and bad mulls.
dropped out at 7th round
cards that wrecked me:
t2 scavenging ooze.

game 2 an elf deck gets 3 drs's active by t3. we both had a laugh at me looking for narcs and ichorids for my therapies with 20+ cards in gy..wtf?!..dumb luck. i crushed him on the play overwhelming and therapied his hand away

got taken down by grafdiggers cage and no answers to a sneak attack emrakul for games 2 and 3.
It looked like reanimator but turned out to be sneak show as i resolved a couple therapies and missed on calling reanimate.

I just hate, hate, hate chalice of the void...playing vs affinity. crushed him t1, then mulled out of game 2 then faced an unanswered chalice t1 as i kept 4 cards with an ancient grudge but no way to bin it before 2 cranial platings on ornithopters wrecked me.

Faced a good jeskai stoneblade deck. he consistently blew my bridges and cruised into rips g1 and g3.. countered pretty much everything i tried to play. he just drew like a champ.

all in all i had a blast playing dredge. nobody knows what to do or what the hell I'm doing. they just scramble to blow up the grave.
I need practice on the blind calls with therapy.

In the future I'm contemplating 4 petals and 4 decays in for g2 and 3 when facing permission, D&T and affinity decks. 2 ashen riders for pretty much everything else.
i wanted to run fothb incase i faced elephant grass moat, or that turbofog guy or an energy field type permission deck. all of which can easily be handled with ashen rider. ...leave the fothb for style points in local meta but not reliable for tourneys this size.
alot of times i wish i had thoughtseize or unmasks. still hit n miss 50% on blind therapies.
I'm definitely hooked on dredge for life. gonna get more experience with it and hope to perform better next big event.

also on a quick note,, a spectator was watching a good game where a youngster piloting manaless deck botched a nether shadow trigger putting an ichorid in play before triggering the nether shadow into play, dropping the creature count to 2 above his shadow. they both missed it.
the spectator politely reminded him and then apologized for interrupting and introduced himself as "Hollywood."
Thanks Hollywood for watching out for our fellow dredge brethren.

what i learned.. dredge can carry a mediocre player half way but its experience that carries them to tops.

good times

[kombatkiwi]

I played the old Feldman 'dredge-fu' list for quite a long time when that article was newer (The tribe-imp version pre-looting with a sb of Leyline/Firestorm/Winds of Change/A couple of DR targets/No anti hate) and I had a decent amount of success with it.

Siding in answers to hate just feels so wonky and I really like the philosophy of just trying to play through it or avoid it. If you think the meta has too much of it then pick a different deck.

This isn't the same thing as playing oops all spells because dredge is more resilient in other ways.

His logic for playing PImp in the sideboard was that Ichorids are too slow against combo and you need to board in something that speeds you up. I guess he's off the winds of change plan with this version because you still need creatures for therapy/DR to eat but if he's only boarding out the 3 Ichorids I don't know what he's cutting for the 4th imp. I do share some of your concern that with no imp maindeck you might be strained for ichorid food but I haven't played the LED/Looting version so I'm not sure how much of an issue this is.

I like the synergy he mentions with Griselbrand/Firestorm and Reveillark sounds pretty interesting, I'll definitely give this version a try once exams are over.

[Que]

I went 6-3 at GP NJ. I got wrenched by 2 Sneak & Show and DnT. Idk that I could have played any differently at least in the matches that I lost. I pretty much ran the same 75 as my win in Oakland although I think I might want to add a 2nd Ashen Rider to combat Sneak in the future. At least the weekend was not lost as I got to spend a good amount of time in New York City as I only attended the event site on Saturday.

[Boatinater]

I played the old Feldman 'dredge-fu' list for quite a long time when that article was newer (The tribe-imp version pre-looting with a sb of Leyline/Firestorm/Winds of Change/A couple of DR targets/No anti hate) and I had a decent amount of success with it.

Siding in answers to hate just feels so wonky and I really like the philosophy of just trying to play through it or avoid it. If you think the meta has too much of it then pick a different deck.

Yeah, this is the part that confuses me the most. My local meta is apparently really hostile towards graveyards, so I kind of feel like I just need to shelve the deck for a while. I had to play through Leylines in four games, which seems utterly brutal. I agree that I like the idea of not siding in anti-hate - it makes dredges look soooo bad sometimes. :-\

Is the consensus lately for Petals-Decays, or is there still a group saying to not worry about it and try and just play through the hate? I may just not understand how to board or how to play through hate, so that may just be what I'm not getting right. If I board into Decays/Nature's Claims/Chain of Vapors, am I supposed to mull into these, or does it just expand my range of keepable hands past needing a dredger, draw, discard outlet?

I'd like to learn how to play the deck more proficiently, but I'm not sure if I'm supposed to try to adapt to people having 4-8 things that cold me, or if I should just wait a while and try again when people stop boarding to obliterate the Dredge and Tin Fins players in the room.

Sorry that this is kind of ramble-y.

[ottofromorbit]

Yeah, this is the part that confuses me the most. My local meta is apparently really hostile towards graveyards, so I kind of feel like I just need to shelve the deck for a while. I had to play through Leylines in four games, which seems utterly brutal. I agree that I like the idea of not siding in anti-hate - it makes dredges look soooo bad sometimes. :-\

Is the consensus lately for Petals-Decays, or is there still a group saying to not worry about it and try and just play through the hate? I may just not understand how to board or how to play through hate, so that may just be what I'm not getting right. If I board into Decays/Nature's Claims/Chain of Vapors, am I supposed to mull into these, or does it just expand my range of keepable hands past needing a dredger, draw, discard outlet?

I'd like to learn how to play the deck more proficiently, but I'm not sure if I'm supposed to try to adapt to people having 4-8 things that cold me, or if I should just wait a while and try again when people stop boarding to obliterate the Dredge and Tin Fins players in the room.

Sorry that this is kind of ramble-y.

There will be hate. alot of decks cripple to specific brands of hate. bloodmoon vs most decks is basically game over. bummer to have faced that many lotv. I saw it once the whole weekend while playing vs Seth in a mirror match during a grinder. he mulled for it 3 times then dropped it g3 for the win.

if you blow them out g1 then try again g2 try not sbing. if they hate, then game 3 ,def try to add mana options and mull into at least one answer. the sb cards mess up the natural flow so slow dredge will be the plan.
in the tournament, i drew into this hand: looting, golgari troll, stinkweed imp, petal, breakthrough, led, mana confluence.
decided to keep on game 3. flipped half my deck only 2 therapies and no dr but hit 2 bridges. ended turn 1 with a modest 4 zombies and lots of potential. we were both suprised i couldnt finish. It was his day, or i should went for the planned sb strategy and ignored the temptation of the perfect hand.
he casts grafdiggers cage and I do nothing but attack. he plays dark rit and red for sneak attack emrakul.
if i kept a natures claim. maybe i could have blown the sneak attack or been able to ashen rider the emrakul.
can't win em all but its our game to lose.
maybe thought seize or unmask is our answer but sometimes we get caught just like everyone else.
we're still winning at 75%+ for most matches. mulling and sb takes practice.
run sideboarded match practice to get better.
goldfishing isnt good experience. imo
When starting to play legacy I was told that it takes 9 months to a year to know your deck. then experience will win your games.

[gibbousm]

What are people's thoughts on running Iona in the main board as a dedicated Dread Return target?

She's brought out of the sideboard in a lot of different match ups, she's good vs both fair and unfair decks if you know what color to name and wins in 3 hits by herself. Flame-kin zealot, Flayer of the Hatebound, and other dedicated targets can win games on the spot, but you need to have more Bridges or extra DRs for them to be effective.

[Boatinater]

There will be hate. alot of decks cripple to specific brands of hate. bloodmoon vs most decks is basically game over. bummer to have faced that many lotv. I saw it once the whole weekend while playing vs Seth in a mirror match during a grinder. he mulled for it 3 times then dropped it g3 for the win.

if you blow them out g1 then try again g2 try not sbing. if they hate, then game 3 ,def try to add mana options and mull into at least one answer. the sb cards mess up the natural flow so slow dredge will be the plan.
in the tournament, i drew into this hand: looting, golgari troll, stinkweed imp, petal, breakthrough, led, mana confluence.
decided to keep on game 3. flipped half my deck only 2 therapies and no dr but hit 2 bridges. ended turn 1 with a modest 4 zombies and lots of potential. we were both suprised i couldnt finish. It was his day, or i should went for the planned sb strategy and ignored the temptation of the perfect hand.
he casts grafdiggers cage and I do nothing but attack. he plays dark rit and red for sneak attack emrakul.
if i kept a natures claim. maybe i could have blown the sneak attack or been able to ashen rider the emrakul.
can't win em all but its our game to lose.
maybe thought seize or unmask is our answer but sometimes we get caught just like everyone else.
we're still winning at 75%+ for most matches. mulling and sb takes practice.
run sideboarded match practice to get better.
goldfishing isnt good experience. imo
When starting to play legacy I was told that it takes 9 months to a year to know your deck. then experience will win your games.

Thanks for the response. It probably just will take time, and I think I would like to get proficient with the deck. I gravitate towards very fair decks and feel pretty proficient with midrange and tempo decks. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm trying to broaden my range, so I get and agree with the "it jut takes time" thing.

I have a couple things sleeved up for an SCG IQ tomorrow, and I may pull the trigger and try playing Dredge, so I'll try to keep some of your advice on mind if I do it. We'll see how it goes :-)

[ottofromorbit]

What are people's thoughts on running Iona in the main board as a dedicated Dread Return target?

She's brought out of the sideboard in a lot of different match ups, she's good vs both fair and unfair decks if you know what color to name and wins in 3 hits by herself. Flame-kin zealot, Flayer of the Hatebound, and other dedicated targets can win games on the spot, but you need to have more Bridges or extra DRs for them to be effective.

IMO
Iona I keep in side for green and red or decks that's have little or no permission and weak on hate.
It works vs storm calling black and good luck resolving dr vs any permission deck. Ichorids are usually the answer there. That slot is too selective.
Lands and affinity... Permission ...
I realize it shuts down alot but It just seems a gamble when ashen rider is a better choice to get a winning edge.

[Klazam]

RE: main iona

I ran it

it works

[Darklingske]

So, has anyone already played against Containment Priest? And if so, how did you fight it? I'm just curious to know if 3 Firestorms to Sb is enough to beat it.

[gibbousm]

Game 1 against an unknown opponent, if you have a hand of land, LED, draw spell, dredger how do you know if you should break the led and dump your hand in response to the draw spell?
Do you risk the FoW?

[Ziilot]

Game 1 against an unknown opponent, if you have a hand of land, LED, draw spell, dredger how do you know if you should break the led and dump your hand in response to the draw spell?
Do you risk the FoW?

I'd say go for it if you are on play. You get the dredgers to graveyard anyway. If you are on draw you can choose to DDD depending their first play.

[Darklingske]

That would depend on the rest of the hand. Are the remaining 3 cards lands? Or did you mulligan to 4? But in general I would risk it.

[Que]

Make them show you the Force

[Que]

Double Post? They're far enough apart. :U

I was just going to say that I've made another minor tweak to the mainboard that allows us to run some number of Street Wraith. At first I thought it would be Gitaxian Probe as it helps with Cabal Therapy and its a free draw/Dredge. However, I don't think dredge really needs this and instead I opted for SW. It is black which means Ichorid food (I like it more when I'm slow dredging; hitting SW and Putrid Imp to remove to Ichorid sounds better than removing my Thug/Stinkweed), it is uncounterable, and still gives us that free draw. Not to mention you can use it instant speed which allows you to hold it until absolutely necessary i.e. in response to a DRS activation or surigical extraction which are targeting a dredger.

In previous iterations of my list I had completely eschewed playing Breakthrough in place of SW, however, I feel BT is just too powerful not to include especially in my version which runs no DR targets or the fancy Flayer kill. So here is the new list:

4x LED
4x Bridge from Below
4x Careful Study
4x Faithless Looting
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Breakthrough
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Grave Troll
4x Golgari Thug
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
2x Putrid Imp
3x Street Wraith

4x Gemstone Mine
4x Mana Confluence
4x Cephalid Coliseum

The cards I took out to make space were 2 Putrid Imp, the 13th land, and the singleton DR I did have in my original 60. These are preference and anyone wanting to argue about them may just be splitting hairs. I don't think a couple of cards really make a huge difference when comparing lists especially when I'm replacing them with more gas/Live cards. The dread Return is awesome as it is versatile and its the most I might regret getting rid of, however, game 1 I hardly need it and its usually dead if my opener contains it. Because of this the 2 DR I have are in the SB. I've been cutting down on Putrid Imps, but as I've reiterated before I still think its what the deck wants at least as a Plan B so I still have a couple of them. He also allows for some sick setup plays with Cephalid Coliseum or bridges stranded in your hand and lets not forget he is a warm body to sac to Therapy/DR.

I have a couple of legacy tournaments coming up so will see

[Claymore1]

Any advise for a stock LEDless build (packing putrid and tribes), against Mox opal affinity packing main decked Arcbound Ravager, and relic sideboard?
I already run ancient grudge on SB but I was wondering if any tips main deck. Firestorm?

[indefinite.soul]

4x LED
4x Bridge from Below
4x Careful Study
4x Faithless Looting
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Breakthrough
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Grave Troll
4x Golgari Thug
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
2x Putrid Imp
3x Street Wraith

4x Gemstone Mine
4x Mana Confluence
4x Cephalid Coliseum



Running a pretty similar list, not worth "splitting hairs", I would run this SB:

4 firestorm (death and taxes, elves, maverick, etc)
4 abrupt decay (all other decks you are not bringing firestorm)
3 city of brass (anytime I want decay)
2 ashen rider (2 to maximize chance in openning hand vs Show and Tell / Sneak Attack)
2 dread return (return rider)

[drinkard]

Any advise for a stock LEDless build (packing putrid and tribes), against Mox opal affinity packing main decked Arcbound Ravager, and relic sideboard?
I already run ancient grudge on SB but I was wondering if any tips main deck. Firestorm?

Leyline of the Void keeps Ravager from exiling your Bridge from Below. Pithing Needle, Grudge, Cabal Therapy are good for Relic. Alternatively not activating Phantasmagorian is good against Relic, so you can begin to discard and dredge again.

[Michael Keller]

Leyline of the Void keeps Ravager from exiling your Bridge from Below. Pithing Needle, Grudge, Cabal Therapy are good for Relic. Alternatively not activating Phantasmagorian is good against Relic, so you can begin to discard and dredge again.

Leyline of the Void only hits opponents' graveyards, not your own.

[Holly]

Leyline of the Void only hits opponents' graveyards, not your own.

That's why he said LotV helps against the Affinity-player sacrificing creatures to the Ravager to remove Bridges.

[mewanyk]

Double Post? They're far enough apart. :U

I was just going to say that I've made another minor tweak to the mainboard that allows us to run some number of Street Wraith. At first I thought it would be Gitaxian Probe as it helps with Cabal Therapy and its a free draw/Dredge. However, I don't think dredge really needs this and instead I opted for SW. It is black which means Ichorid food (I like it more when I'm slow dredging; hitting SW and Putrid Imp to remove to Ichorid sounds better than removing my Thug/Stinkweed), it is uncounterable, and still gives us that free draw. Not to mention you can use it instant speed which allows you to hold it until absolutely necessary i.e. in response to a DRS activation or surigical extraction which are targeting a dredger.



So I had a question. I completely understand your reasoning for the inclusion of street wraith and I think it's a great addition, and I can see how it could help to get dredgers out of harms way in many situations. Especially post board. However, I was just wondering if you had actually tested Gitaxian Probe in this spot? I would be curious to know how it turned out. I would think the information you would get along with a free draw to potentially dredge would be very strong. Especially after boarding in game 2, you could know their exact hate immediately.

Since everyone runs different hate its hard to Therapy when they could be running, Relic, Cage, Crypt, etc. this could make a clutch turn 1 Therapy. To me that seems more than enough to justify at least trying it out. Even in game 1 it can be really useful when you have an explosive hand capable of dumping most of your deck into the GY, but you're not sure if he has force or daze. This can help you know when would be the best opportunity to pull the trigger. Just a thought, but I'd like to know what you think of this as well.

[Jankwolf]

So I had a question. I completely understand your reasoning for the inclusion of street wraith and I think it's a great addition, and I can see how it could help to get dredgers out of harms way in many situations. Especially post board. However, I was just wondering if you had actually tested Gitaxian Probe in this spot? I would be curious to know how it turned out. I would think the information you would get along with a free draw to potentially dredge would be very strong. Especially after boarding in game 2, you could know their exact hate immediately.

Since everyone runs different hate its hard to Therapy when they could be running, Relic, Cage, Crypt, etc. this could make a clutch turn 1 Therapy. To me that seems more than enough to justify at least trying it out. Even in game 1 it can be really useful when you have an explosive hand capable of dumping most of your deck into the GY, but you're not sure if he has force or daze. This can help you know when would be the best opportunity to pull the trigger. Just a thought, but I'd like to know what you think of this as well.

How much life loss do you find acceptable? I refuse to use SW or GP for the life loss aspect. That and I rarely find a situation where I can't power through a DRS. As far as the Therapy comment, you should roll game 1's really easily and have more than enough information to know what decks bring in different kinds of hate. Abrupt decay handles everything other than LotV which is rarely run. If you keep a proper hand you should be able to recover off of a spell getting countered with no trouble at all.

[mewanyk]

How much life loss do you find acceptable? I refuse to use SW or GP for the life loss aspect. That and I rarely find a situation where I can't power through a DRS. As far as the Therapy comment, you should roll game 1's really easily and have more than enough information to know what decks bring in different kinds of hate. Abrupt decay handles everything other than LotV which is rarely run. If you keep a proper hand you should be able to recover off of a spell getting countered with no trouble at all.

Well game 1 isn't really an issue, I just thought it would help in game 2. Yea you are right that Abrupt Decay deals with everything quite well, I just always saw GP as free information. It lets you know what your opponent kept and what you are up against for that particular game, and how you can play around it if you need to. Maybe I'm overestimating if GP has value here.

[Ozymandias]

I've been having success recently with a playset of Unmasks in the main deck, and I've been wanting to get a DR back in to go along with them--It can actually speed your clock up by a whole turn even in the non-combo builds.

Also, I always found the problem with Street Wraith is that it's just a blank on its own. Even Breakthrough (which I'm down to 3 MD) at least does something cast for X=0.

[Que]

I will admit I have not tested with Probes as much. In your scenario having them main deck wouldn't really let you know what kind of hate you'll be facing Game 2, because things like Relic, Cage, and crypt etc.. are usually not main deck. Now if you wanted to put Probes in your board I can definitely see that argument working out better. And we've seen this done before at GP Washinton D.C. with Drew Tunison running 4 in his sb in the Top 8.

I'm going to have to agree to disagree with Jankwolf's opinion on SW and Probe as far as the life loss issue is concerned. But in any case I'll go ahead and echo the rest of his sentiments, because I feel the same:



I rarely find a situation where I can't power through a DRS. As far as the Therapy comment, you should roll game 1's really easily and have more than enough information to know what decks bring in different kinds of hate. Abrupt decay handles everything other than LotV which is rarely run. If you keep a proper hand you should be able to recover off of a spell getting countered with no trouble at all.


@Ozy. Sup Caleb. Hows it been going?
Actually I would be interested to see what your current maindeck looks like. I don't think I've ever given Unmask a shake in the main. Sounds pretty good if you can fire it off turn 1 and follow it up with a Therapy haha. The only potential problem I see is having to get rid of another useful black card currently in your hand like Bridges, Ichorids, and Therapys, dredgers etc. because those all seem like things we need. And yeah SW on its own isn't the nutter butters (just a cycle), but it excels in all the scenarios I've mentioned in my previous post. Usually the plan is not to simply fire off a SW for a simple card draw, but rather after there has been some kind of setup. Though I guess that's obvious. lol

[Alpalbp]

Alright guys, I was reading this thread today, and decided to make an account so I can start on this great forum. I started playing Dredge about a month ago, and I'm about 3 cards ($7) short of finishing my list (PM me if you have Modern Masters Cities of Brass!) Anyway, I'd like some feedback on my list, because I don't really think it's the normal list:

Mana:
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Mana Confluence
4x City of Brass
4x Cephalid Coliseum
1x Gemstone Mine

Draw:
4x Careful Study
4x Faithless Looting
4x Breakthrough

Dredgers:
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Golgari Thug

Recursion:
4x Bridge From Below
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Narcomoeba
3x Ichorid

DR Package:
3x Dread Return
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
1x Griselbrand

Sideboard:
1x Gemstone Mine
3x Lotus Petal
1x Chain of Vapor
3x Firestorm
1x Memory's Journey
3x Abrubt Decay
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Ashen Rider
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria

I would say it's definitely more on the combo-y side of Dredge, but I really want to hear some suggestions.

EDIT: Only been to 1 local event but I 4-0ed it with a list 1-2 cards away from this.

[Ozymandias]

@Ozy. Sup Caleb. Hows it been going?

Mostly grad school. Occasional MTG

My current list:
1 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
4 Faithless Looting
4 Putrid Imp
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Unmask
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge From Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Mana Confluence
3 Cephalid Coliseum
SB:
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Firestorm
1 Mana Confluence
1 Dread Return
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Ancient Grudge

Leyline isn't exactly popular so I cut all my outs to it. I upped the imp count to feed Unmask, but I want a maindeck DR and the last thug back in. BT is too powerful to ignore, but you never want to see multiples in the opener ( unlike every other card.) Whatever cost you have from unmasking is outweighed by crippling the opponent's ability to interact, and making Theraoy even better. Don't forget you can just cast it turn two after getting back a dredger. You can also unmask yourself in a pinch or to set up a strong T1.

[Jankwolf]

Mostly grad school. Occasional MTG

My current list:
1 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
4 Faithless Looting
4 Putrid Imp
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Unmask
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge From Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Mana Confluence
3 Cephalid Coliseum
SB:
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Firestorm
1 Mana Confluence
1 Dread Return
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Ancient Grudge

Leyline isn't exactly popular so I cut all my outs to it. I upped the imp count to feed Unmask, but I want a maindeck DR and the last thug back in. BT is too powerful to ignore, but you never want to see multiples in the opener ( unlike every other card.) Whatever cost you have from unmasking is outweighed by crippling the opponent's ability to interact, and making Theraoy even better. Don't forget you can just cast it turn two after getting back a dredger. You can also unmask yourself in a pinch or to set up a strong T1.

Removing black cards that feed the Ichorid engine? Sounds REAL legit.

[Vandalize]

Alright guys, I was reading this thread today, and decided to make an account so I can start on this great forum. I started playing Dredge about a month ago, and I'm about 3 cards ($7) short of finishing my list (PM me if you have Modern Masters Cities of Brass!) Anyway, I'd like some feedback on my list, because I don't really think it's the normal list:

Mana:
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Mana Confluence
4x City of Brass
4x Cephalid Coliseum
1x Gemstone Mine

Draw:
4x Careful Study
4x Faithless Looting
4x Breakthrough

Dredgers:
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Golgari Thug

Recursion:
4x Bridge From Below
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Narcomoeba
3x Ichorid

DR Package:
3x Dread Return
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
1x Griselbrand

Sideboard:
1x Gemstone Mine
3x Lotus Petal
1x Chain of Vapor
3x Firestorm
1x Memory's Journey
3x Abrubt Decay
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Ashen Rider
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria

I would say it's definitely more on the combo-y side of Dredge, but I really want to hear some suggestions.

EDIT: Only been to 1 local event but I 4-0ed it with a list 1-2 cards away from this.

The list is pretty comboish, eh. I personally don't like it, since I've been playing quadlaser forever. 11 dredgers is the bare minimum, 12 is the stock. Not playing Putrid Imp nor Street Wraiths might make your Ichorid starve, you'll have to eat Stinkweed Imps and Golgari Thugs, and that can hurt you when slow dredging.

What myself and other players in this forum have concluded is that killing your opponent in fashion with Flame-kin or Flayer is nice and all, but killing with 6+ zombies and Ichoirds the next turn is pretty much the same.

tl;dr: The choice is about playstyle. If you're confortable with the combo list, just go for it. It's as fun as the other lists.

[Alpalbp]

The list is pretty comboish, eh. I personally don't like it, since I've been playing quadlaser forever. 11 dredgers is the bare minimum, 12 is the stock. Not playing Putrid Imp nor Street Wraiths might make your Ichorid starve, you'll have to eat Stinkweed Imps and Golgari Thugs, and that can hurt you when slow dredging.

What myself and other players in this forum have concluded is that killing your opponent in fashion with Flame-kin or Flayer is nice and all, but killing with 6+ zombies and Ichoirds the next turn is pretty much the same.

tl;dr: The choice is about playstyle. If you're confortable with the combo list, just go for it. It's as fun as the other lists.

I'd like to see your list then, because I think I'd rather play an aggro deck rather than a combo deck, although I'd still like to have a DR package. Also, I'm trying to get every single card necessary for every iteration of Dredge so that I can play whatever build I want based on the meta.

[mewanyk]

So I had a conversation with a few people the other day about how dredge is getting kind of getting hated out indirectly because of U/R Delver being so good, and even more recently the success of 3 Storm decks getting into the top 8 of the Legacy Seattle Invitational.

i feel like you can overcome the hate if you play well enough, but I would like to know how some others feel about the current meta game as it applies to Dredge.

[gibbousm]

So with the 2 most prominent forms of graveyard hate being Containment Priest and Grafdigger's Cage, neither of which stop Bridge triggers, would it be a better plan to run the evoke creatures (ingot chewer & wispmare) as your anti-hate over Abrupt Decays? Bridge triggers and lower cost vs Uncounterability and flexibility.

I need to start preparing my sideboard for the Philly Open. I'm expecting plenty of Delver, with Miracles, Elves, Stoneblade, and Storm making up most of the field.

Current list:
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Golgari Thug
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
3x Putrid Imp
4x Stinkweed Imp

3x Breakthrough
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Careful Study
1x Dread Return
4x Faithless Looting
4x LED
4x Bridge from Below

3x Cephalid Coliseum
2x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Mana Confluence

Sideboard:
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Ashen Rider
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Dread Return
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2x Firestorm
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
2x Lotus Petal
2x Surgical Extraction

Any suggestions are welcome.

[Parcher]

So with the 2 most prominent forms of graveyard hate being Containment Priest and Grafdigger's Cage, neither of which stop Bridge triggers, would it be a better plan to run the evoke creatures (ingot chewer & wispmare) as your anti-hate over Abrupt Decays? Bridge triggers and lower cost vs Uncounterability and flexibility.

Yes. I would agree with this. The Evoke creatures have been working out well recently. The reason I made the switch, was that there has not been a better time for Coliseum, as maybe one deck in the Top 7-8 performers runs Wasteland. And you can't run Decay with four Coliseum.

[slave]

.... I've made another minor tweak to the mainboard that allows us to run some number of Street Wraith. At first I thought it would be Gitaxian Probe as it helps with Cabal Therapy and its a free draw/Dredge. However, I don't think dredge really needs this and instead I opted for SW. It is black which means Ichorid food (I like it more when I'm slow dredging; hitting SW and Putrid Imp to remove to Ichorid sounds better than removing my Thug/Stinkweed), it is uncounterable, and still gives us that free draw. Not to mention you can use it instant speed which allows you to hold it until absolutely necessary i.e. in response to a DRS activation or surigical extraction which are targeting a dredger.
I agree regarding Probe > after playing Manaless for ages, I've had Probe countered plenty of times to protect their hands' content.
Should they not be playing counter, I'm sure the question is a bit more tricky, but for me I like SW.

A *mana-free, uncounterable* dredge/draw spell in hand is always good, especially when Icky or Unmask can make use of it.
But I like it for it's surprise factor > opponents aren't used to seeing it in LED-Dredge.
I've been running 3 Pimps & 2 SW's with a single DR in the main.


Yes. I would agree with this. The Evoke creatures have been working out well recently. The reason I made the switch, was that there has not been a better time for Coliseum, as maybe one deck in the Top 7-8 performers runs Wasteland. And you can't run Decay with four Coliseum.
Yeah I made the switch too, but so far I'm a little concerned on sideboard space. They DO allow us to run less mana sources in the side thankfully.
Since Decay can handle almost any hate, and the evoke creatures are focussed on one type of hate, how many of each are you guys running?
And are you still running a small number of Claims for redundancy?

[gibbousm]

how many of each are you guys running?
And are you still running a small number of Claims for redundancy?

Well considering that I was running 3 Abrupt Decays and 2 Petals, I decided to go with 3 Ingot Chewers and 2 Wispmares
I currently have 2 Chain of Vapors in the sideboard as an answer to everything. While I do like Nature's Claim, Chain hits everything AND can be cast off of Colosseum. The downside is, unless I have a cabal therapy to follow up, their hate is just coming right back. I feel Chain is better in the Flamekin/Flayer builds of the deck as you can bounce the stuff during your opponent's end step then combo off your next turn.

Claim = Permanent removal but only artifacts and enchantments (not scooze, drs, or containment priest) gives you more time to assemble critical mass.
Chain = Temporary removal but hits everything except lands. Can be cast off of any land.

I wish I had 20 cards to work with for my sideboard instead of only 15.

[Vandalize]

I'd like to see your list then, because I think I'd rather play an aggro deck rather than a combo deck, although I'd still like to have a DR package. Also, I'm trying to get every single card necessary for every iteration of Dredge so that I can play whatever build I want based on the meta.

My list is the Quadlaser a little tweaked:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Mana Confluence
4 Gemstone Mine
1 City of Brass
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
SB: 3 Lotus Petal
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Wispmare
SB: 2 Ingot Chewer
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre (this is my flex slot, I have a lot of Reanimator in my meta)
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Dread Return
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite/Iona, Shield of Emeria (depends if I expect aggro or combo).

[gibbousm]

So its one week until the Philly Open and I need to nail down my Sideboard and which Maindeck DR target I want.

For the MD DR target its between Iona and Elesh Norn. Both win games. I'm leaning more towards Iona as its the unfair decks I'm worried about rather than the fair decks but when they don't win on the spot, Elesh Norn ends games faster by pumping zombies and ichorids.

My current sideboard is:
1x Ashen Rider
1x Dread Return
1x Elesh Norn/Iona
3x Firestorm
3x Ingot Chewer
2x Nature's Claim
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Wispmare

I also have available Petals and Abrupt Decays but given that Containment Priest and Grafdigger's Cage don't stop Bridge triggers I'm leaning more towards the evoke creatures. I feel my anti-hate numbers are fine, but I'm unsure about the quantities of my other cards.

[iamfrightenedtoo]

Sorry everyone i did Dredge poorly this weekend in Columbus.
I was in line to top 8 the IQ, but punted my last two rounds.
Really i punted the last round. The kid had 3 swift spear's by turn two, and I didn't have any response, in game two.
Game three, I just made every play mistake a dredge player can make. On top of missing every dredge for the whole game.
I placed 26.
No need for a deck list. I run pretty much the standard Dredge list, but I run 3 Dread Return.
By the way 1 Cage, and two priests are pretty impossible to beat.
I lost to Blue/Red delver 8th round.
And some good variation of The Rock, in the 7th.

I still run Chain of Vapor in my sideboard. I just find its the easiest to cast, and I only need the hate to be off the table for one turn, usually anyway, because I'm so combo.
Also, has anyone ever sided in Griselbrand? I can't seem to find why it takes a place in my sideboard.
And my 1 of Dakmor Salvage in the SB was as awesome as I had planned. It's an easy way around Thalia. Because Thalia players love to Waste Land the few lands I have anyway.

[mextremartini]

Can you post the sideboard at least?
I've been playing the straight version of the deck, and the combo in the sideboard with 3 dread return, 2 griselbrand and 1 flame-kin. I've been doing well so far, but I think the rest of the sideboard still some improvements, like your 01-of land to fight thalia.

[Daize]

Sorry everyone i did Dredge poorly this weekend in Columbus.
snip

Awww, you sound like you need a hug. Cheer up, you've learned and will be better next time! :-)

[iamfrightenedtoo]

Can you post the sideboard at least?
I've been playing the straight version of the deck, and the combo in the sideboard with 3 dread return, 2 griselbrand and 1 flame-kin. I've been doing well so far, but I think the rest of the sideboard still some improvements, like your 01-of land to fight thalia.

Side board is pretty straight forward.
3 Firestorm
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Leyline of The Void
1 Ashen Rider
1 ichorid
1 Griselbrand
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Dakmor Salvage

I've been playing Dredge for a while now, I've never once cast a Firestorm.
I was on tilt pretty much all day. Round two, game three i mulled to 5, and kept 1 city of Brass, 1 Faithless looting, 1 Lion's Eye Diamond, 2 Golgari Grave Troll. I almost threw it back because I didn't actually believe it.
My opponent asked if that's what I was presenting. I said yes.
He called a judge, because he thought I only had 59 cards in my deck, because there was a Cabal Therapy laying on my deck box.
My opponent grabbed my deck and my hand and counted my deck by peeling off the top card of my library and laying the next card off on top reversing the order of my deck, then he shuffled.
He counted 60 twice, and counted my side board once with 14 cards, plus my sided out Cabal Therapy.
He couldn't believe i sided out Cabal Therapy.
I did. And I'm not ashamed of it. I personally hate Cabal Therapy, and decided game three to just combo or lose.
So I was then forced to draw a new 5 cards. Which enraged me. The judge was okay with me presenting a 5 card mulligan, and then having my opponent shuffle everything for no reason.
My new 5 was 1 Cephalid colosseum, 1 Putrid imp, and 3 black dredgers.
I rage kept the hand.
On his second turn he flopped 10 goblins on the board, I pulled a city and played an imp, pass. His third turn he attacked and put me to 9,
EOT i discarded Stinkweed Imp.
Untap. Upkeep. Dredge.
Hit a Narcomoeba, And a Golgari Grave Troll.
Discarded the rest of my hand.
Used Colosseum.
Eventually attacked him with 12 zombies that turn.
And even though I won, in pretty hilarious and lucky fashion, I never quite got over the initial stupidness.

[indefinite.soul]

So far Fate Reforged brought nothing for us and nothing against us. I mean, some cards do help other decks, but at least no more hate.

[slylie]

Side board is pretty straight forward.
3 Firestorm
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Leyline of The Void
1 Ashen Rider
1 ichorid
1 Griselbrand
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Dakmor Salvage

I've been playing Dredge for a while now, I've never once cast a Firestorm.
I was on tilt pretty much all day. Round two, game three i mulled to 5, and kept 1 city of Brass, 1 Faithless looting, 1 Lion's Eye Diamond, 2 Golgari Grave Troll. I almost threw it back because I didn't actually believe it.
My opponent asked if that's what I was presenting. I said yes.
He called a judge, because he thought I only had 59 cards in my deck, because there was a Cabal Therapy laying on my deck box.
My opponent grabbed my deck and my hand and counted my deck by peeling off the top card of my library and laying the next card off on top reversing the order of my deck, then he shuffled.
He counted 60 twice, and counted my side board once with 14 cards, plus my sided out Cabal Therapy.
He couldn't believe i sided out Cabal Therapy.
I did. And I'm not ashamed of it. I personally hate Cabal Therapy, and decided game three to just combo or lose.
So I was then forced to draw a new 5 cards. Which enraged me. The judge was okay with me presenting a 5 card mulligan, and then having my opponent shuffle everything for no reason.
My new 5 was 1 Cephalid colosseum, 1 Putrid imp, and 3 black dredgers.
I rage kept the hand.
On his second turn he flopped 10 goblins on the board, I pulled a city and played an imp, pass. His third turn he attacked and put me to 9,
EOT i discarded Stinkweed Imp.
Untap. Upkeep. Dredge.
Hit a Narcomoeba, And a Golgari Grave Troll.
Discarded the rest of my hand.
Used Colosseum.
Eventually attacked him with 12 zombies that turn.
And even though I won, in pretty hilarious and lucky fashion, I never quite got over the initial stupidness.

Nice comeback.

I can't imagine how you can play dredge for so long and have never cast Firestorm. I would always keep at least 2-4 copies in the sideboard for Delver/DnT/Other decks that run creatures we care about killing like DRS, S. Ooze, Thalia etc. It has won me games countless times, most gloriously when an opponent went T1 DRS, I went Gold land, go. He goes sacland, removes it with DRS, casts another DRS and scavenging ooze with a big smile on his face like "DEAL WITH THIS". I eot Tapped my gold land, discarded 4 cards and nuked his board plus charred his face just for fun. He sat looking at the card, reading it over and over, called a judge over to make sure it was real, then scooped. Against delver it cleans up their fast start, and more importantly its an uncounterable discard outlet. Even if they force/daze it the cards still get discarded, and the dredge engine can begin. At one mana it is also very good at removing Thalia on their EOT, Stoneforge before they can cheat in Batterskull and the new mage from the commander deck that I can't remember her name.

[mextremartini]

Side board is pretty straight forward.
3 Firestorm
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Leyline of The Void
1 Ashen Rider
1 ichorid
1 Griselbrand
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Dakmor Salvage



Are 3 Leyline of the Void enough? I've been changing my mind between this and faerie macabre. However, when should I sideboard those 3 cards in? Only against dredge and reanimator?

[slave]

And my 1 of Dakmor Salvage in the SB was as awesome as I had planned. It's an easy way around Thalia. Because Thalia players love to Waste Land the few lands I have anyway.
I run a single Dakmor Salvage from the side too > it's saved my arse on quite a few occasions, but I mainly ran it to support Abrupt Decay.


Are 3 Leyline of the Void enough? I've been changing my mind between this and faerie macabre. However, when should I sideboard those 3 cards in? Only against dredge and reanimator?
Yeah I've been playing with 3 Faerie Macabre in the side for a while given it's synergy with Icky, and the fact that mulling for Leyline can kill our chances of winning on occasion, given we can't actually cast it. That said, Leyline does have the synergy with Bridges....
FYI, I have used Faerie in the past to protect myself from extraction.
I side in Faerie's whenever I fear graveyard shenanigans or combo stuff that can dominate from the grave.

[gibbousm]

So I'm happy to say I went 6-3 day one of the SCG Philly Open just barely sneaking into day 2.
My losses were to Elves, Maverick, and UR Delver.
I beat Shardless BUG, Stiflenaut, Elves, Red MUD, and Miracles.

Highlight game was game 2 against Elves in round 7.
They went t1 DRS.
I went land, LEDx2, Breakthrough, flashback 2 Faithless Looting and ended my turn with 5 zombies an Iona on Green and an Elesh Norn.

EDIT:
After the final 6 rounds on day 2 I finished at 10-5 overall
My losses day 2 were both to UR Delver.
I beat out Elves, Esper Deathblade, UR Delver, and Infect.

Out of 15 Rounds I played UR Delver 4 times and only beat it once, though I feel a lot of my losses against them were mostly due to bad luck, (ie horrible dredges, mulling to 5 or fewer cards, or getting all 4 Bridges exiled off of a single bolt).
Suggestions for this match up? It feels like Burn, just with a whole lot of cantrips and the ability to swarm the board like Elves.

[slave]

So I'm happy to say I went 6-3 ....

Out of 15 Rounds I played UR Delver 4 times and only beat it once, though I feel a lot of my losses against them were mostly due to bad luck, (ie horrible dredges, mulling to 5 or fewer cards, or getting all 4 Bridges exiled off of a single bolt).
Suggestions for this match up? It feels like Burn, just with a whole lot of cantrips and the ability to swarm the board like Elves.
It's a hard matchup for sure > no real pointers I can help with here, as I struggle to win often here too.

Darkblast & Contagion are two I've tested for this previously to try and control their initial pressure, with mixed (and often lack of) results.
I prefer Contagion as an option, but without a larger black input on the deck I fear it's not ideal.

[Final Fortune]

It's a match up where having a full DR package makes a big difference on your game 1 and overall win % because they aren't really good at stopping you from going off but they are really good at holding off your incremental pressure from Ichorid, Bridge from Below and a DRed Golgari Grave Troll, basically you need to trade consistency for power like -1 Golgari Thug, -1 Ichorid, -1 Putrid Imp, -1 Breakthrough for 2 Dread Return, 1 Griselbrand, 1 Flame Kin Zealot to overwhelm the board.

[potatodavid]

Meta is full of Lands (hex depths and thespian stage/ depths). How Do I win?

[P-E]

Ashen rider or terastodon could solve your problem.

[Gui]

Meta is full of Lands (hex depths and thespian stage/ depths). How Do I win?

Realm Razer, maybe?

[slave]

Ashen rider or terastodon could solve your problem.

Realm Razer, maybe?
Another to consider might be Bearer of the Heavens > although I value the black part of the cost of Ashen Rider greatly for Icky, Bearer has the ability to nuke an opponents' board.

[potatodavid]

Another to consider might be Bearer of the Heavens > although I value the black part of the cost of Ashen Rider greatly for Icky, Bearer has the ability to nuke an opponents' board.

I'm just prepping for this coming Sunday. Bearer might be a fun option, Right now I'm trying to figure out the sideboard. I expect to see way more of the same shit at this tournament. Lots of lands, MUD, & 12 Post, UR delver & Burn.

What I have so far for board

3x Lotus Petal
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Firestorm
2x Ashen Rider
1x Dread Return
4x Open spots... <--- Here's the problem.

[Que]

I'm just prepping for this coming Sunday. Bearer might be a fun option, Right now I'm trying to figure out the sideboard. I expect to see way more of the same shit at this tournament. Lots of lands, MUD, & 12 Post, UR delver & Burn.

What I have so far for board

3x Lotus Petal
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Firestorm
2x Ashen Rider
1x Dread Return
4x Open spots... <--- Here's the problem.

You can try Iona which is usually pretty OP against BURN. It also helps the Storm matchup and Elves matchup (both of which are currently popular) among others. If reanimator is big in your meta then I would suggest a couple of copies of Surgical Extraction. Not to mention it can have corner applications against Storm.
If MUD is huge then I would actually roll with either 1 or 2 copies of Ancient Grudge TBH. This card is house and the ability to cast it from hand can be huge giving you essentially 4 destruction effects presumably. They're also great against Stonforge decks by taking out their equipment and leaving them with a lowly squire. Regardless of what anyone thinks, I believe Jitte is a beating for dredge sometimes.

Just my 2 cents.

[potatodavid]

You can try Iona which is usually pretty OP against BURN. It also helps the Storm matchup and Elves matchup (both of which are currently popular) among others. If reanimator is big in your meta then I would suggest a couple of copies of Surgical Extraction. Not to mention it can have corner applications against Storm.
If MUD is huge then I would actually roll with either 1 or 2 copies of Ancient Grudge TBH. This card is house and the ability to cast it from hand can be huge giving you essentially 4 destruction effects presumably. They're also great against Stonforge decks by taking out their equipment and leaving them with a lowly squire. Regardless of what anyone thinks, I believe Jitte is a beating for dredge sometimes.

Just my 2 cents.

I will add in Iona Forgot she's a card. And grab a couple of Ray of Revelations. In I'm going to try 2 faerie macabres for the Reanimator Matchup Just because I don't have any Surgical Extractions or Extirpates.

[CptHaddock]

Hey guys. If you are going into a completely unknown meta is it better to play a quadlazer or non quadlazer build of dredge? I'm thinking about playing dredge at a local tournament at the end of the month. There should be a good turn out (~20ish people), but i'm unsure of what people will be playing. The only decks I know that will probably be there are mud and goblins. I haven't played dredge at a local legacy tournament so it should be a nice surprise too. :P

[potatodavid]

Hey guys. If you are going into a completely unknown meta is it better to play a quadlazer or non quadlazer build of dredge? I'm thinking about playing dredge at a local tournament at the end of the month. There should be a good turn out (~20ish people), but i'm unsure of what people will be playing. The only decks I know that will probably be there are mud and goblins. I haven't played dredge at a local legacy tournament so it should be a nice surprise too. :P

Quad-Laser is fine, or flamekin zealot for victory is also good.

[gibbousm]

I'd say either works.
Quadlazer is better if you expect slower decks as its better at grinding out wins.
Dread Return focus if you expect faster ones because DR for Flamekin Zealot tends to win on the spot.

[Que]

I got a good little chuckle out of this card:

Hammer Mage

[gibbousm]

So I'm trying to decide if I want to go more in on the combo aspect of Dredge or not.
Faster wins vs grinding power. right now I've got Iona as a main deck DR target and while she is powerful, she has only won be a G1 once, though the threat of reanimating her has won me a few more.

What are people's thoughts on Quadlazer vs the more DR focused list? I don't have enough experience to really say which is stronger.

[potatodavid]

So I'm trying to decide if I want to go more in on the combo aspect of Dredge or not.
Faster wins vs grinding power. right now I've got Iona as a main deck DR target and while she is powerful, she has only won be a G1 once, though the threat of reanimating her has won me a few more.

What are people's thoughts on Quadlazer vs the more DR focused list? I don't have enough experience to really say which is stronger.

i prefer to keep a single copy of DR and Flamekin in the main just for the combo. Espeically if you've Therapied and know they have no answer. It doesn't hurt the deck enough to not be running it, IMO.

[Jankwolf]

i prefer to keep a single copy of DR and Flamekin in the main just for the combo. Espeically if you've Therapied and know they have no answer. It doesn't hurt the deck enough to not be running it, IMO.

The combo version mulligans a lot more and is weaker against crypt/relic/spell bomb. Quad laser is better against almost all forms of grave hate and has less mulligans. That's just what I have found out over the years.

[Que]

Most of my success has been with Timo's Quadlazer build. While I may not currently run exactly 4 of everything the core idea remains with no dedicated Dread Return targets main. I do like incorporating a singleton DR though, because while we have no "real" targets there will always be utility in the ability to bring back things like a giant Golgari Grave troll, Ichorid for additional zombies, and even Golgari Thug (if you have a cabal therapy and narco in your yard). You have to look for these spots.

When the deck "combos" it will establish a board presence while eliminating your opponents options via Cabal Therapy and that should be enough to win. You'll realize that the games you won with Griselbrand you probably would have won on your next turn anyway via zombie horde. The understanding is if you have the luxury of flashing back DR without being disrupted then you're already ahead.

[potatodavid]

So with TC out of the format. Does mean there will be a rise in Deathblade & decks running R.I.P. out there?

[Troll Slayer]

Here is a simple Dredge primer for the uninitiated!
http://www.moxboardinghouse.com/media/mtg-101-legacy-dredge/

[potatodavid]

Was going to give a tournament report about winning over the weekend, but on the way to the tournament, hit some ice on the road and wrecked my car. Magic didn't fee l like a priority at that point. Big tournament next month though, hopefully less ice on the road that day.

[GoldenCid]

Anybody could explain the prevalence of. Lotus petal in the side?

Enviado desde mi XT890 mediante Tapatalk

[Que]

@David. That sounds terrible. Take care of yourself and I hope you weren't hurt.

@Golden Cid. Petals can help you play around soft counter magic like Daze and Spell Pierce. This is monumental because on your turn 1 (assuming you're on the draw) you'd normally be susceptible to the Daze, but by playing out a land and then the petal you can give yourself a better opportunity to resolve a turn 1 Careful Study or Faithless Looting. Normally you'd have to wait another turn to play around the Daze or just jam your spell blindly and hope it resolves. It gives you back parity when you're on the draw.

And of course not to mention that if you had sideboard cards like Abrupt Decay then you would want the additional Petal support to aid in casting it. Normally we run answers with converted mana cost 1 to go along the traditional 13 land suite. By bringing in cards like Abrupt or even Wear//Tear it will start to strain your mana.

[GoldenCid]

Thx a lot. I thought that it was to fasten the dck against faster combo decks.

Enviado desde mi XT890 mediante Tapatalk

[potatodavid]

@David. That sounds terrible. Take care of yourself and I hope you weren't hurt.


Only my pride took a beating that day.

[zbrt]

What do you guys think of the list from the SCG 5K in DC last weekend, Erik C.'s list?

I've just got my LEDs and am 3 Ichorids away from finishing Dredge as my first legacy deck. I've been looking for a build to model after and picked his to start, but I'm wondering about the lack of FKZ mainboard. I think I like the idea of the combo being available G1, but then again, I've never played legacy. Anyone run something similar? Or is he on this site?


List here: Washington D.C. Premier IQ 6th Place (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=79219)

[GoldenCid]

I played dredge about 3 or 4 years ago and i was great. Very good time. Now im oxidized but i understand that at least 1 dr target other than ggt is worth in a led version. You choose fkz, iona, ashen or whatever.

Enviado desde mi XT890 mediante Tapatalk

[Cope]

What do you guys think of the list from the SCG 5K in DC last weekend, Erik C.'s list?

I've just got my LEDs and am 3 Ichorids away from finishing Dredge as my first legacy deck. I've been looking for a build to model after and picked his to start, but I'm wondering about the lack of FKZ mainboard. I think I like the idea of the combo being available G1, but then again, I've never played legacy. Anyone run something similar? Or is he on this site?


List here: Washington D.C. Premier IQ 6th Place (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=79219)

yeah that's me, you don't really want/need a DR target main since getting a huge GGT and zombies is almost always enough game 1, and you don't even need to hit the DR to win obv. I actually almost never side in the FKZ, its just there for other fast combo matchups obv but Iona is usually better there (and possibly even Elesh Norn which I used to run). I also top16ed the Philly Open a few weeks ago with the same list, don't think I would change a card but Elesh Norn and Ashen Rider are other DR targets I've run in the past.

FWIW, I'm not a fan of the Lotus Petal and Abrupt Decay package in the SB which I've seen discussed here. To be fair I haven't tried it but it seems incredibly optimistic to think that youre going to hit 2 Rainbow Lands or Land, Petal, Decay in your opener plus the next 1-3 cards you draw (which are probably the only cards youll actually "draw" the whole game). Nature's Claim just seems better to me and has worked in practice as well, sure it can be countered but its way easier to at least try to cast, and you can try to set it up with Cabal Therapy. Sometimes theyre gonna have the hate piece and a counter for your Claim, and you just have to tip your cap when they have the nuts like that.

[potatodavid]

I'm wondering about the lack of FKZ mainboard.


This has come up a couple times. It's all in your preference. The biggest argument against the Flamekin to victory is that if you were going to dread return flamekin back, a lot of times just DR anything like a big troll will still get you there. You are likely already winning at this point.

[laserstone]

Now im oxidized

Hahahaha
Cu+2(aq) + Zn(s) → Cu(s) + Zn+2(aq)

[kombatkiwi]

Played in an event last weekend with the list from most recent Feldman article

2-1 UR Delver
2-1 Reanimator
ID Sneak Show
1-2 Shardless Bant homebrew deck
Place 5th missing the top 4 playoff

Because the event was very small the way the pairings worked out was that the round 3 ID was basically a loss for both of us, but we didn't figure it out properly until we were like halfway through the round. We were mostly IDing for friendship reasons so just had a laugh about it.

Game 3 against Reanimator was decided by Leyline of the Void in my SB, he had no outs. Game 2 was equally short with his turn 2 Elesh Norn.

Game 3 against Shardless Bant I went turn 1 Faithless Looting pitch dredger. His turn 2 was only land, go. On my second turn I have to decide whether I want to try and therapy RIP or cast another faithless looting.

Possible Considerations:
- With a mana open he can protect his hand with a Brainstorm which would make therapy useless
- He has the Thopter Foundry combo in his deck which gets turned off by RIP (I didn't see a RIP in G2 and he kept the Thopter Combo in)
- If I play the Looting and I dredge into action I might be able to cast a therapy anyway and get a zombie or something

In the end I therapied but he just Enlightened Tutored for Cage in response and I was out of the game. Having LED makes the deck much more weak to mulligans but the increase in power level is probably worth it.

The deck will always be a thing on raw power level and there is certainly a level of skill involved in playing it, but every time a dredge list tops a big tournament there will always be those unseen players who couldn't fade graveyard hate for 8+ rounds. I'm not sure if I would ever enter a serious event with the plan of hoping that other people don't have graveyard hate in their sideboards.

*To a similar extent this sentiment also applies to the version with Decay/CoV/Nature's Claim.

[GoldenCid]

Dont get sad. Every player that goes with dredge must know and expect grave hate. In spite of that still wants to run dredge.
You have to know that this deck wins g1 90% of time. The g2 and 3 % decrease notoriously depending on your side choice. Whatever cmc 1/2 card that can manage pernament cards will allow you to deal with unexpected cards, cage i n your case. Chain of vapor, nature claim, decay and wear//tear are good examples. I encourage you to give the deck the chance to reward you. It is one of the powerfullest decks ever created.

Enviado desde mi XT890 mediante Tapatalk

[potatodavid]

Getting the wHip back from the shop Friday. There's a Tournament for a Grim Tutor or playset of Bobs this weekend at the shop. Hoping to bring the dredge milkshake to the yard. It's gonna be FABULOUS.

[Que]

Getting the wHip back from the shop Friday. There's a Tournament for a Grim Tutor or playset of Bobs this weekend at the shop. Hoping to bring the dredge milkshake to the yard. It's gonna be FABULOUS.

Maybe you can give this a try:

2x Putrid Imp
2x Street Wraith
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Thug
4x Narcomoeba
4x Ichorid
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Bridge from Below
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Faithless Looting
4x Careful Study
3x Breakthrough
1x Dread Return

4x Mana Confluence
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Cephalid Coliseum

[potatodavid]

I am intrigued by the wraith / imp split

[Que]

I am intrigued by the wraith / imp split

Extra dredge + they're live vs Deathrite Decks which ARE coming back. The deck already has plenty of outlets, it can afford to cut on the imps for added utility.

[potatodavid]

Extra dredge + they're live vs Deathrite Decks which ARE coming back. The deck already has plenty of outlets, it can afford to cut on the imps for added utility.

I'm going to go ahead and give that a shot. I dropped my flamekin combo from the deck after testing this last weekend with some buds. I am glad I did, I cannot recall how many games I lost because of hitting him instead of a dredger or undead flying jello fish. I agree that Every time I cast him. I was already WAY ahead.

[Que]

I'm going to go ahead and give that a shot. I dropped my flamekin combo from the deck after testing this last weekend with some buds. I am glad I did, I cannot recall how many games I lost because of hitting him instead of a dredger or undead flying jello fish. I agree that Every time I cast him. I was already WAY ahead.

If you're a stickler for the 13th land feel free to make any preference cut to fit it in. Though I would urge to keep all 4 Ichorid as I believe it to be one of the best cards in this version of the deck.

[slave]

I am intrigued by the wraith / imp split
LOL, I've been doing this for the last few weeks. Co-ink-e-dink.
Que, your main looks pretty much same-same with me.
Personally, I don't find I miss the extra Imps > having Wraith around to protect dredgers from DRS & Extraction has saved me a few times already.

Agreed on Icky > this sucker turns the deck on in many situations.
I've learnt over the years that only fielding 2 Icky's in your list is not where you want to be, and although 3 is better, 4 is more consistent and fuels the deck for quicker end-game.

[CptHaddock]

So out of curiosity do you guys normally keep hands with 2 or more of faithless looting and/or careful study without dredgers in hopes that you get there? Also in terms of sequencing are there particular types of decks that you would go putrid over a faithless looting or careful study or does it just depend on your hand?

[HammafistRoob]

I always go putrid first against an unknown opponent. If I'm even playing with the PImp himself.

The other question is a little too vague to answer correctly. It matters a ton if you're in a preboard game, or in g2 or 3. You also have to take into account previous mulligans and if you know what your opponent is playing. If it's game one against an unknown opponent and your opening 7 has 2 study effects but no dredger you should throw it back. On a mull to 5 though those hands become probable keepers. If it's a postboard game things get more complicated since you now need anti hate alongside your outlet, dredger, and land. So if your 7 has a land, 2 Studies, and a Nature's Claim, I would most likely keep. This also depends on my opponents deck and whether they mulliganed or not since they tend to snap mulligan if they have no hate.

[potatodavid]

If you're a stickler for the 13th land feel free to make any preference cut to fit it in. Though I would urge to keep all 4 Ichorid as I believe it to be one of the best cards in this version of the deck.

I never drop any number of Iccy Thump. He's the best non cabal therapy card in the deck.

[Que]

Sup guys. I just missed the top 8 at the SCG IQ Los Angeles. It was a fun event overall seeing as how So Cal repp'd it pretty hard having about 5 locals in the top 8 and about 3 or more in the top 16 including myself in 9th. I did have to fight a lot of my friends throughout the event which was bittersweet. In any case I wrote up a small report. My Mental Notes (no pun intended lol) may not be the most vivid so if I misrepresented anything then I urge my opponents to clear things up if you're on the forums. Here is how the tournament rolled out..

LIST!!!! (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=80330)

R1: Nathan Situ w/ Imperial Painter
- I don't feel super confident since this matchup can be pretty horrid. I have no way to interact with his combo outside of cabal therapy which is only a crutch since he also plays Goblin Welder. Also he has maindeck hate in the form of Ensnaring bridge which I cannot beat game 1. Anyway..

Game 1 I had the elusive turn 1 LED + Breakthrough into Faithless Looting dirtyness. So much for seeing that bridge!
Game 2 He landed a painter with Grindstone, but could not activate it. At that time I believe I had 1 bridge and an Ashen Rider in my GY with 2 BfB and the single DR in my hand. On my turn I activated Cephalid to hit at least 1 Narcomoeba and discarded both bridges and the DR. I sacc'd Narco to cabal Therapy to generate 3 Creatures which allowed me to DR the Ashen Rider back and Exile his Gridstone. He isn't able to reassemble the combo before I kill him with the rider and Ichorids.
2-0, Match Score: 1-0

R2: Koby w/ Tin Fins
- Another matchup which seems unfavorable in that he is definitely faster in being able to assemble his combo.

Game 1 I have LED + Careful Study which allows me to hit at least 1 Narcomoeba and lets me flashback Cabal. Here is where having knowlege of your opponent can become handy. Though considering the makeup of my graveyard I assessed the situation and determined that from my current position the only decks I would lose to were either some kind of S&T deck or Reanimator. I named Entomb and I was paid off. He isn't able to find a way to bin a grisel/emmy and the game concludes a few turns after.
Game 2. My opener has LED and 2 Careful Study along with coliseum. Koby turn 1 Probes and therapies away both of my careful studies which slow me down. I remember he played a chrome mox and imprinted a Grisel to it. He then entombed grisel, however, I was able to faint a couple of draw steps as he did not draw a 2nd land to cast the shallow Grave in his hand. By then I had the chance to DR into an Iona on black. Koby plays on for a bit seeing if he could draw 1 of the Chains of vapor he had boarded in, but to no avail.
2-0, Match Score: 2-0

R3: Jack C. w/ Esper Miracles
Game 1 I mulligan to 4 and pull off the win with about 15 mins left on the clock. Game went so long I don't remember huge specifics. I was just very careful not to overextend my Ichorids into his Terminus.
Game 2 Ended in a draw which awarded me the win overall.
1-0-1, Match Score: 3-0

R4: Mitchell Nguyen Patriot Stoneblade (10th place)
Game 1 I have decent hand and I remember Mitchell fow'd an outlet, however, he pitched Clique instead of TNN it was later revealed. He played Stoneforge and fetched up Batterskull. On my turn I hit a therapy and I aim to hit either the TNN or the Bskull I know about. Either way I wanted to make sure the coast was clear for my Breakthrough which allowed me to generate a zombie horde backed by a giant Troll.
Game 2 Mitchell plays Cage and I spend a couple of turns trying to use my draw spells to find an Abrupt. I end up drawing one and was going to setup a breakthrough Coliseum turn at his end step, however, he decides to cast RIP as well as contaiment Priest to shut me out completely. /Cry
Game 3 I open with Land, Lotus petal, Careful Study, breakthrough and some dredgers. He did not have FOW and that was game.
2-1, Match Score: 4-0

R5: Grant Gutierrez w/ MUD (Top 8 Competitor)
Game 1. I don't remember Grant playing many spells outside of Chalice on 1 after I had already cast a study to start my engine. He also cast an additional Chalice on 0 and eventually a lodstone. By this time though I had recurred Ichorid a few times and continued to build my board which allowed me to overwhelm him before something like wurmcoil hit the board.
Game 2 He plays Tormonds Crypt, but pops it a bit early which allowed me to use the draw spells I was sandbagging to get back into the game. Again Trinisphere shows up a bit late to the party and I'm able to take it without seeing any fat robots.
2-0, Match Score: 5-0

R6: Matthew Chung w/ Grixis Delver (Top 8 Competitor)
Game 1. Matt didn't seem to have much action outside of a Probe, a Young Pyromancer I therapied away, and a delver that would refuse to flip. I eventually build a board of zombies and receive the concession.
Game 2. I mull to 3 and promptly lose
Game 3. I keep a "greedy" hand with all draw spells and 2 coliseums, but no dredgers. I end up seeing 1/3 of my deck before finding one and I die. I don't think I would have mulliganed that either way. That RNG dou.
1-2, Match Score: 5-1

R7: Alex Gellerman w/ Bant Stoneblade (SCG LA Winner)
Game 1. He plays a turn 1 Noble into a turn 2 Scavenging Ooze with a green source up and its all downhill from there. At some point I had 2 LEDs in play and 2 Coliseums. He only had 2 green sources available at the time since he had just cast KOTR and I had 3 Dredgers in the yard (2 Trolls and 1 Thug). What I should have done was Crack the LED add 3 blue and activate Coliseum prompting him to eat a Troll. In response to that I would crack the 2nd LED for an additional 3 Blue to activate the 2nd Coliseum to bring back the Troll hes targetting and make him ooze it again. This would allow me to have about 5 untouched activations of Cephalid Coliseum, but I would have to take my chances with the 1 Troll and 1 Thug. This would presumbly allow me to still dredge a good amount of my deck and still have a 2nd main phase to cast cards and generate zombies. Instead I decided to wait until EOT to get the Coliseum activations on all 3 Dredgers (thats all I was thinking),but that was a completely terrible plan as hes just going to eat everything on his turn. Lesson Learned!!
Game 2 he forces my outlet and it slows me down enough for him to waste me off my lands and find a relic of progenitus.
0-2, Match Score: 5-2

My dreams are now dashed. I know that my breakers are amazing though with only Alex having better ones after the swiss had concluded. I was hoping I could sneak into 8th, however, it was determined that it would be a clean cut to top 8 ;__; Now I just had to play for top 16 to get myself a $100 and a playmat.

R8: Angel Stax
Game 1. He drops a tabernacle early which makes me sigh. My dredges get me Ichorids which allow me to bring them back at the upkeep to avoid the Tabernacle triggers all together. I keep doing this until I reduce his life to zero.
Game 2. He starts the game with 2 white leyline. He eventually drops a sylvan library with an ethersworn, but I'm not really concerned with those cards. Eventually he also lands a Trinisphere, but its a litte late. Eventually I get to DR an Ashen Rider to exile 1 of the only 2 lands he had. I figured this way he can't play something like a STP to rid himself of the Rider seeing has how he can't play it under his own trinisphere. That and I didn't care about his other permanents.
2-0, Match Score: 6-2

Overall Record: 6-2 for 9th Place finish. It was a fun event despite the ending. Also I hate that SCG is completely shafting the westcoast and we wont really have any noteworthy events for a good amount of time. In any case I'm glad I was able to rep the west. Keep the dredging alive! :U

[gibbousm]

I'm really sad to hear about you just missing out on top 8 but you still had a good finish at 6-2.

How did your sideboard work out for you? Personally, I'm not comfortable running only a single Firestorm in the sideboard, especially if I don't have Elesh Norn to sweep away creatures. Its nice in that you can always discard 2 cards to it if needed, and I have won several games due to a Firestorm blowout.

I'm also curious how the Putrid Imp/Street Wraith split has been working out for you. I tested 3 Wraiths over 3 Imps at DC and honestly couldn't really say how good they were as I only ever cycled a Wraith once the entire 8 rounds.

[bhsman]

I'd also be interested to hear about the Street Wraiths, Que. :smile:

[jimmythegreek]

As obvious as it sounds street wraith is good in an opening seven when you got other draw cards in hand. Without draw cards but having dredgers, it seems, imp is the more optimal option. Depending on whether you list puts more or less stock in dread return and targets also may sway your choice. I personally love dredge and am in the process of buying (again) a playset of led's. Street wraith seems great in a vacuum and I'm sure people will have positive results in a deathrite meta, I think it really depends on your opening seven though. I've only goldfished a 2/2 split of imp and wraith and I seem to favor imp, what about 4 wraith and no imp.....I don't know. Que probably has a better answer since he actually played the config competitively.

[potatodavid]

In my testing. 2/2 split is perfect. I keep a 3rd in the board now. Especially when your opponent surgicals. Cycle in response. Raise your middle finger and continue to grow thy friendly graveyard.

[Que]

@gibbousm.

I keep going back and forth with Firestorm. My final postition on it currently is that its only ok. Tbh I don't have too many troubles with creature decks because we normally amass a great number of 2/2s that can simply go over the top.

Obviously you mean to hit creatures like DRS, Containment Priest, or other utility creatures, however, it forces you to play a reactive game which I don't like. Would you use the firestorm as an outlet on the first available creature to start your engine? In my experience if I wait to get value from Firestorm then I feel like I'm in a losing proposition. Your opponent will also be amassing better cards via Brainstorm and Ponder to disrupt your graveyard strategy with a more permanent based form of hate. This includes cards like Cage and RIP which Firestorm does nothing against.

Firestorm is also a wierd nombo with Bridge from Below since discarding is an additional cost to cast Firestorm. You killing a creature is to your detriment. And idk about you but sometimes I don't actually want to discard more than 2 cards or so because those other cards have better utility. Think about it this way You need to have Firestorm in your opener which is also another ordeal, but then you want to pair it with cards like Ichorid, Cabal Therapy, and other cards better served in your graveyard instead of your draw spells. However, those cards are actually a lot more poor in openers considering games 2 and 3.

No really I just use this card as an additional discard outlet that cannot get countered and thats it.

Regarding Street Wraith I'm just going to copy + paste. Side rant: Idk what it is about the Dredge thread, but sometimes I feel like a broken record when I have
to reiterate points on cards we've probably already discussed. but thats my deal haha. I just hope newer dredge players bother to read the thread instead of just the last couple of pages.. /breath ok lol.



I was just going to say that I've made another minor tweak to the mainboard that allows us to run some number of Street Wraith. At first I thought it would be Gitaxian Probe as it helps with Cabal Therapy and its a free draw/Dredge. However, I don't think dredge really needs this and instead I opted for SW. It is black which means Ichorid food (I like it more when I'm slow dredging; hitting SW and Putrid Imp to remove to Ichorid sounds better than removing my Thug/Stinkweed), it is uncounterable, and still gives us that free draw. Not to mention you can use it instant speed which allows you to hold it until absolutely necessary i.e. in response to a DRS activation or surigical extraction which are targeting a dredger.

Extra dredge + they're live vs Deathrite Decks which ARE coming back. The deck already has plenty of outlets, it can afford to cut on the imps for added utility.


Regarding the 2/2 split:
The 2/2 split is because I still want to be able to have a fresh body to sac to a Dread Return if I need to. I did utilize it in tournament saving a dredger after a Tormond's Crypt activation. My hand had Careful Study and Coliseum, but no dredgers outside of the 2 in the bin. It allowed me to return the Troll to my hand and continue on with the game. I've also used the wraith in tournaments to blank DRS activations. The fact that MUD is becoming more prevalent is also another appealing reason to run the Wraith since a Chalice on 1 will blank most of your draw spells. Not to mention they play Trinisphere and wasteland. Having the Wraiths gives you additonal gas without the mana investment. :)

[Encendi]

@gibbousm.

I keep going back and forth with Firestorm. My final postition on it currently is that its only ok. Tbh I don't have too many troubles with creature decks because we normally amass a great number of 2/2s that can simply go over the top.

Obviously you mean to hit creatures like DRS, Containment Priest, or other utility creatures, however, it forces you to play a reactive game which I don't like. Would you use the firestorm as an outlet on the first available creature to start your engine? In my experience if I wait to get value from Firestorm then I feel like I'm in a losing proposition. Your opponent will also be amassing better cards via Brainstorm and Ponder to disrupt your graveyard strategy with a more permanent based form of hate. This includes cards like Cage and RIP which Firestorm does nothing against.

Firestorm is also a wierd nombo with Bridge from Below since discarding is an additional cost to cast Firestorm. You killing a creature is to your detriment. And idk about you but sometimes I don't actually want to discard more than 2 cards or so because those other cards have better utility. Think about it this way You need to have Firestorm in your opener which is also another ordeal, but then you want to pair it with cards like Ichorid, Cabal Therapy, and other cards better served in your graveyard instead of your draw spells. However, those cards are actually a lot more poor in openers considering games 2 and 3.

No really I just use this card as an additional discard outlet that cannot get countered and thats it.

Regarding Street Wraith I'm just going to copy + paste. Side rant: Idk what it is about the Dredge thread, but sometimes I feel like a broken record when I have
to reiterate points on cards we've probably already discussed. but thats my deal haha. I just hope newer dredge players bother to read the thread instead of just the last couple of pages.. /breath ok lol.



Regarding the 2/2 split:
The 2/2 split is because I still want to be able to have a fresh body to sac to a Dread Return if I need to. I did utilize it in tournament saving a dredger after a Tormond's Crypt activation. My hand had Careful Study and Coliseum, but no dredgers outside of the 2 in the bin. It allowed me to return the Troll to my hand and continue on with the game. I've also used the wraith in tournaments to blank DRS activations. The fact that MUD is becoming more prevalent is also another appealing reason to run the Wraith since a Chalice on 1 will blank most of your draw spells. Not to mention they play Trinisphere and wasteland. Having the Wraiths gives you additonal gas without the mana investment. :)

So I don't want to be the new guy who rehashes old things, but I built Dredge a few months back and never had a chance to play it and I have a few questions.

Can you explain the Surgical Extraction and the extra City of Brass in your SB? Also, how often do you find that Mana Confluence vs City of Brass matters? I have every iteration of the deck/sb minus the Confluences because I can't justify paying Standard prices for them, but chances are I'll try out the deck in a tournament sometime soon.

Also, how do you mulligan on games 2 and 3? Is it a toss up of whether to go for speed or anti-hate? I feel like it's hard to get Lotus Petal + Decay along with a good opener.

[CptHaddock]

I always go putrid first against an unknown opponent. If I'm even playing with the PImp himself.

The other question is a little too vague to answer correctly. It matters a ton if you're in a preboard game, or in g2 or 3. You also have to take into account previous mulligans and if you know what your opponent is playing. If it's game one against an unknown opponent and your opening 7 has 2 study effects but no dredger you should throw it back. On a mull to 5 though those hands become probable keepers. If it's a postboard game things get more complicated since you now need anti hate alongside your outlet, dredger, and land. So if your 7 has a land, 2 Studies, and a Nature's Claim, I would most likely keep. This also depends on my opponents deck and whether they mulliganed or not since they tend to snap mulligan if they have no hate.

I will keep this in mind!

Anyways I went to a local legacy win a legacy staple tournament yesterday. Got absolutely crushed (which sucks :cry:) but I learned a lot about sequencing, mulliganing, etc. Also probably should try to not make my sideboard the morning off the tournament, turns out that I forgot to put chain of vapors in my board. I don't know if they would have won me any matchup, but it probably would have been nice to have. Most of the games I played were really close, I sort of mulled myself to oblivion in multiple games but I guess that is the nature of dredge.

These were the matchups I played:

0-2 RG Combo Lands
1-2 BUG Delver
1-2 Dark Maverick
2-1 UR Delver

[Que]

So I don't want to be the new guy who rehashes old things, but I built Dredge a few months back and never had a chance to play it and I have a few questions.

Can you explain the Surgical Extraction and the extra City of Brass in your SB? Also, how often do you find that Mana Confluence vs City of Brass matters? I have every iteration of the deck/sb minus the Confluences because I can't justify paying Standard prices for them, but chances are I'll try out the deck in a tournament sometime soon.

Also, how do you mulligan on games 2 and 3? Is it a toss up of whether to go for speed or anti-hate? I feel like it's hard to get Lotus Petal + Decay along with a good opener.

The Surgical Extraction is so you don't auto lose to Reanimator. If they grab Elesh Norn the game is over. They're also ok against storm decks, but not amazing. You can pair it with Cabal Therapy to take away a potential Infernal Tutor or respond to a dangerous PIF by taking something from their GY.

The reason I run a land in my current sb is because I'm not playing the traditional 13 land variant in my maindeck. I don't mind only having 12 lands with my build. I bring in the extra land when I board in the Abrupt Decays alongside my Lotus Petals.

Confluence vs Brass. It doesn't really matter at all. I mean unless your meta is infested with Death and Taxes.. They have port. but yeah don't worry about it.

The boarding. Yes its pretty much at your discretion when to go for speed or antihate. You don't need to necessarily have the Decay in your opener. If your hand is amazing then keep it! If they turn 1 cage you then so be it. Start digging for your anti hate then. If they didn't have their one of then you would have destroyed them. Play the odds my friend.

[indefinite.soul]

No Dredge top16 in Dallas. :/


Imho we have 3 cards to assess from Dragons of Tarkir (although I don't really see any making the 75):

Help against lands/enchantress
http://media.wizards.com/2015/dftyuvbd564776rvf/en_aItGvd4yqT.png

Help against merfolk
http://media.wizards.com/2015/dftyuvbd564776rvf/en_IwGsp4uP9N.png

DR target vs Nauseam/Tendrils/combo like
http://media.wizards.com/2015/dftyuvbd564776rvf/en_Jqu8AEoXVr.png

[jimmythegreek]

No Dredge top16 in Dallas. :/


Imho we have 3 cards to assess from Dragons of Tarkir (although I don't really see any making the 75):

Help against lands/enchantress
http://media.wizards.com/2015/dftyuvbd564776rvf/en_aItGvd4yqT.png

Help against merfolk
http://media.wizards.com/2015/dftyuvbd564776rvf/en_IwGsp4uP9N.png

DR target vs Nauseam/Tendrils/combo like
http://media.wizards.com/2015/dftyuvbd564776rvf/en_Jqu8AEoXVr.png
I think one has to ask oneself if a card among these posted would at all help when seen in an opening seven considering most of our deck ends up in the graveyard. Unless it's a card that draws, deals with hate or recurs from the grave few cards can be contenders for dredge and I think the first two are just too situational. As far as the dragon goes I think flame kin does a better job at executing our plan. Led dredge is just extremely tight as far as what cards can be considered to replace any of the existing 60, definitely keep your eyes open though. There's lots of big fatties we can dread return to answer different deck strategies.....what's the newer green one that deals with enchantments??

[slave]

DR target vs Nauseam/Tendrils/combo like
http://media.wizards.com/2015/dftyuvbd564776rvf/en_Jqu8AEoXVr.png
Being potential Icky food has me listening.
I'm certain this is a very situation (therefore marginal) card choice, however I think this might be useful against some control to some extent also.
That said, the conditional nature of *creature* & *planeswalker* makes me think this guy will just sit in the sideboard for almost every meet....

Not sure, but at the price they're going for, I might give it a test just because. Maybe.

[Mastikor]

Kolaghan seems a solid choice over FKZ. Maybe just straight better. Lists that run FKZ should definitely test him out. However, he's only good in those lists. Lets see his pros and cons:

+ he is black (= Ichorid food if necesary)
+ he is solid on it's own (nice attacker, marginal ability) whereas FKZ is useless until lethal
+ he's a cool dwagon :P

- doesn't give the +1+1 boost (he is however, a 6 power flyer on it's own)

I think he's worth it. Again, only over the FKZ slot.

[Mindlash]

Kolaghan seems a solid choice over FKZ. Maybe just straight better. Lists that run FKZ should definitely test him out. However, he's only good in those lists. Lets see his pros and cons:

+ he is black (= Ichorid food if necesary)
+ he is solid on it's own (nice attacker, marginal ability) whereas FKZ is useless until lethal
+ he's a cool dwagon :P

- doesn't give the +1+1 boost (he is however, a 6 power flyer on it's own)

I think he's worth it. Again, only over the FKZ slot.

Cons: Creatures don't have haste anymore if he gets removed.

[Mastikor]

Just thought about that too. Eh.

[Gui]

FKZ can kill with one less zombie in play, this should be the most important part, imho.

[Que]

What are we really discussing here? Am I missing something? Where is the knockout punch. This is a 6/5 dragon you're Dread Returning. The target you're getting should flat out win you the game. It shouldn't be a win more card.

[jimmythegreek]

With such tight lists often threads like these seem "dead" at times. Often our enthusiasm may get the best of us which leads to "reaching" for certain cards that are really quite sub-par. We don't get too many tools too often which again can lead to a more quiet thread, that and not everyone is comfortable bringing dredge to tournaments. I think match up analysis (from real experience) and tournament results are the best tools for us to become better dredge pilots, rather than reaching for cards (no offense). To get back on track, some talking points:
When entering an unknown meta is it optimal to run natures claim over abrupt decay?
The split between s.wraith and imp, has it improved the decks functionality and against which decks?
Is the quad laser version still more optimal over other more comboish type lists?

I just received my playset of led's so I'm gonna be running this deck in multiple scg events and at my lgs. Again, I believe tournament results from competent pilots will serve the dredge community best. Don't be afraid to run this deck a few weeks in a row at your lgs, I think there's a common misconception that you can't run this deck on a normal basis. Make them have the hate or die.