[Deck] Dredge

[Ronald Deuce]

R3 - Oops all Spells

It's no wonder people like to dump on that deck when people play it the way your opponent did. Good job, though!

[KaiSchafroth]

It's no wonder people like to dump on that deck when people play it the way your opponent did. Good job, though!

Agreed - worked to my benefit lol but certainly less than optimal plays happening from across the table. Thanks!

[Que]

Regarding Leyline of the Void:

I don't particularly plan to fight Leyline of the Void. I do not see it often enough in my meta. Reason being there aren't a bevy of graveyard decks here except for myself and usually 1 other Reanimator player maybe 2. If the tournament is 40+ people and you know only a couple of people are playing graveyard decks what is the rationale behind playing 4 LotV when the odds are you're not going to play me or that 1 other guy. That coupled with the fact that some players might not even know what the Meta is at that particular LGS they may not want to straight up commit 4 SB slots for something tier 1.5 and instead worry about covering more options against the expected field of tier 1 decks. I'm not saying my opponents aren't packing gravehate its just more of the common ones we face.. DRS, Surgical, RIP, Containment Priest, Graffdiggers Cage, Relic, Tormond's Crypt, Nihil Spellbomb, etc.. which we all have experience playing against already. These options seem way more reasonable than LotV which some decks can't even cast; this makes them worse when you draw them off the top. There is also that whole thing where they sometimes force you into bad mulligans.

If it was the opposite and our meta was infested with other graveyard strategies I would definitely feel different. As it stands I've been fortunate enough for that not to be the case so I traverse the gravehate that is more "expected" than trying to fight LotV. If I ran into LotV every other round I would reconsider my deck choice...

[Parcher]

Regarding Leyline of the Void:

I don't particularly plan to fight Leyline of the Void. I do not see it often enough in my meta. Reason being there aren't a bevy of graveyard decks here except for myself and usually 1 other Reanimator player maybe 2. If the tournament is 40+ people and you know only a couple of people are playing graveyard decks what is the rationale behind playing 4 LotV when the odds are you're not going to play me or that 1 other guy. That coupled with the fact that some players might not even know what the Meta is at that particular LGS they may not want to straight up commit 4 SB slots for something tier 1.5 and instead worry about covering more options against the expected field of tier 1 decks. I'm not saying my opponents aren't packing gravehate its just more of the common ones we face.. DRS, Surgical, RIP, Containment Priest, Graffdiggers Cage, Relic, Tormond's Crypt, Nihil Spellbomb, etc.. which we all have experience playing against already. These options seem way more reasonable than LotV which some decks can't even cast; this makes them worse when you draw them off the top. There is also that whole thing where they sometimes force you into bad mulligans.

If it was the opposite and our meta was infested with other graveyard strategies I would definitely feel different. As it stands I've been fortunate enough for that not to be the case so I traverse the gravehate that is more "expected" than trying to fight LotV. If I ran into LotV every other round I would reconsider my deck choice...

The odds of you facing Leyline has nothing to do with the amount of GY decks in the expected meta. It only has to do with what decks are able, and/or required to run Leyline. Tezz runs it as part of it's primary strategy. While both 4C Loam and Eldrazi run it because they both have abysmal matchups against GY decks. Loam can hardcast it. Before turn 4. And Eldrazi can mull to it and still present a fast clock. Neither has virtually any relevant interaction with decks like Reanimator and Dredge beyond sometimes Chalice. So not only is all the 1-mana GY hate a poor choice for these, their lack of disruption means that if they aren't able to pre-game their hate, they might not ever get a chance to play it. With the knowledge that these decks are most often going to opt for Leyline, I would make my decision on how to deal with it according to how many of these I expect to face. I've already seen multiple 100+ man tournaments where Eldrazi is 10% of the field(12), with Loam being 4%(5) and 1 Tezz deck. Even with only 7 rounds, your odds are you'll face one.

[Que]

The odds of you facing Leyline has nothing to do with the amount of GY decks in the expected meta. It only has to do with what decks are able, and/or required to run Leyline. Tezz runs it as part of it's primary strategy. While both 4C Loam and Eldrazi run it because they both have abysmal matchups against GY decks. Loam can hardcast it. Before turn 4. And Eldrazi can mull to it and still present a fast clock. Neither has virtually any relevant interaction with decks like Reanimator and Dredge beyond sometimes Chalice. So not only is all the 1-mana GY hate a poor choice for these, their lack of disruption means that if they aren't able to pre-game their hate, they might not ever get a chance to play it. With the knowledge that these decks are most often going to opt for Leyline, I would make my decision on how to deal with it according to how many of these I expect to face. I've already seen multiple 100+ man tournaments where Eldrazi is 10% of the field(12), with Loam being 4%(5) and 1 Tezz deck. Even with only 7 rounds, your odds are you'll face one.

I'm going to ignore the Tezz thing. Sorry, but I'm not considering that deck when making my SB choices other than what I already have.

I'm going to argue that the lands matchup can already be bad without them having LotV. They have Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog which you cannot play around and once they can recur it every turn its over. Then they have Tabernacle, Glacial Chasm, and Maze of Ith.. Although maybe were speaking of different decks. 4C loam seems to only have LotV or bust which is kind of funny.

but to your own point if we cannot use 1 CMC cards to answer LotV because of Chalice like you mentioned (which I think would still be super lucky for them to have both) and Abrupt doesnt' stop it then what are you suggesting? Wispmare which is super narrow? or perhaps Serenity? or Wear/Tear all 3 of which can't even answer creatures like DRS, Containment Priest, or Thalia..etc.

EDIT: Against Lands I tend to go Lotus Petal + Dread Return Package with Iona trying to shut down their Green (loam). Ichorid beatdown which avoid the Tabernacle trigger at upkeep or Dread Return a Fat Troll and as long as you have a City of Brass/Mana Confluence just pay for that 1 creature and beat them down with that assuming they don't have maze either. if they only have Maze then beat them down with a ton of zombies. Not all games go down the same way and you need to try to find those angles which aren't very clear or intuitive.

[Parcher]

I'm going to ignore the Tezz thing. Sorry, but I'm not considering that deck when making my SB choices other than what I already have.

I'm going to argue that the lands matchup can already be bad without them having LotV. They have Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog which you cannot play around and once they can recur it every turn its over. Then they have Tabernacle, Glacial Chasm, and Maze of Ith.. Although maybe were speaking of different decks. 4C loam seems to only have LotV or bust which is kind of funny.

but to your own point if we cannot use 1 CMC cards to answer LotV because of Chalice like you mentioned (which I think would still be super lucky for them to have both) and Abrupt doesnt' stop it then what are you suggesting? Wispmare which is super narrow? or perhaps Serenity? or Wear/Tear all 3 of which can't even answer creatures like DRS, Containment Priest, or Thalia..etc.

EDIT: Against Lands I tend to go Lotus Petal + Dread Return Package with Iona trying to shut down their Green (loam). Ichorid beatdown which avoid the Tabernacle trigger at upkeep or Dread Return a Fat Troll and as long as you have a City of Brass/Mana Confluence just pay for that 1 creature and beat them down with that assuming they don't have maze either. if they only have Maze then beat them down with a ton of zombies. Not all games go down the same way and you need to try to find those angles which aren't very clear or intuitive.

I never mentioned Lands. Lands doesn't run Leyline. Ever. I don't know why you brought it up. That said, I play with both the highest concentration of Lands players, and the best Lands players regularly. I also beat them regularly. Its not a difficult matchup. Nor is it difficult to play around Crop Rotation.

You can ignore all the matchups and cards you like. It doesn't change the facts of what they run.

I do agree that both Eldrazi and 4C Loam have to have Leyline, or Chalice and some luck to win. That's why they run it. That's what I said. And both decks are a definite part of the meta.

And I wasn't suggesting anything. I was stating a fact. You are making a mistake in assuming that the amount of Leylines you will see has anything to do with the penetration of GY decks in the meta. It has to do with the decks that run Leyline as a matter of course. As we both said, they have to do so to have a chance of winning, so always do. If your meta is 20% Reanimator, but no one runs Eldrazi or Loam, I'd expect few if any Leylines.

[Que]

I never mentioned Lands. Lands doesn't run Leyline. Ever. I don't know why you brought it up. That said, I play with both the highest concentration of Lands players, and the best Lands players regularly. I also beat them regularly. Its not a difficult matchup. Nor is it difficult to play around Crop Rotation.

You can ignore all the matchups and cards you like. It doesn't change the facts of what they run.

I do agree that both Eldrazi and 4C Loam have to have Leyline, or Chalice and some luck to win. That's why they run it. That's what I said. And both decks are a definite part of the meta.

And I wasn't suggesting anything. I was stating a fact. You are making a mistake in assuming that the amount of Leylines you will see has anything to do with the penetration of GY decks in the meta. It has to do with the decks that run Leyline as a matter of course. As we both said, they have to do so to have a chance of winning, so always do. If your meta is 20% Reanimator, but no one runs Eldrazi or Loam, I'd expect few if any Leylines.

Mybad 4C loam =/= Lands.

4C loam should be an easier matchup then. In which case they only really have LotV to rely on. I'll take my chances I guess. Its just such a bad sb card.. ugh. Tbh if I was a 4C loam player or an Eldrazi player I would opt for better choices. Its really LotV or bust

EDIT: Jesus just looked up top 8 4C loam decks packing Lotv. Are they seriously only running 3 LotV really?

[Parcher]

With Eldrazi it is Leyline or bust. I've never lost to that deck if the don't open with Leyline. I'm 1-3 in my last 4 Loam matchups. Post board it's difficult. Even without Leyline, Mox can open them with Chalice. Chalice gets them to Knight. Knight gets Bog. Etc. There was a lot of luck involved. Running 3 Leyline and opening with two. Blind ripping Bog on zero cards and the like. But it happens. The deck is set up to be all bombs, even vs Dredge.

[Que]

With Eldrazi it is Leyline or bust. I've never lost to that deck if the don't open with Leyline. I'm 1-3 in my last 4 Loam matchups. Post board it's difficult. Even without Leyline, Mox can open them with Chalice. Chalice gets them to Knight. Knight gets Bog. Etc. There was a lot of luck involved. Running 3 Leyline and opening with two. Blind ripping Bog on zero cards and the like. But it happens. The deck is set up to be all bombs, even vs Dredge.

But 4C loam can't have everything. It seems like they're either in the Bojuka Bog camp or in the LotV camp; just strictly speaking from the latest TC Deck results. But yeah I can see losing to a Mox Diamond into a Chalice, 2 LotV, or KotR into Bog for sure.

Either way they have to get pretty "lucky". In the example with 2 LotV hitting the field I mean even having an answer will not save anyone from that unless they were running echoing truth. xD

[slave]

It's no wonder people like to dump on that deck when people play it the way your opponent did. Good job, though!
Ha ha, yeah I've played Oops a few times. It's a bit like playing Pact SI. Neither are great decks.

[Que]

Going to try to implement some number of Prized Amalgam. I only ran 1 in my main this past weekend with another in the sb replacing the singleton Memory's Journey. The idea being to create diversification of threats if they happen to surgical Ichorid which Parcher already mentioned. And since I used Memory's Journey exclusively for Surgical it seemed like an easy swap.

I replaced an Ichorid main deck, but sometimes Amalgam was worse because I couldn't recur it if I didn't already have another Ichorid to recur or if I didn't hit a Narcomoeba that turn. For this reason I think I'm going to stick with 4 Ichorid, but still run a single Amalgam main cutting 1 of the 3 Street Wraith I normally run; this will essentially be Ichorid #5. This is probably the best cut to make considering that it still allows you to put some amount of pressure on DRS without depleting your resources (i.e. your black creatures). Plus I will say that Wraith is prob one of the more underwhelming cards in my version (PImp probably the case for the traditional builds).

So I'll try to jam a few more games and let you guys know how it turns out. I only play on tournament days though so hang tight. xD

[Parcher]

Open question;

Playing this weekend, sat down vs someone I didn't recognize, who I put on Delver. He wins the roll and leads with Strand pass. This puts him on Pierce, so I go to my discard. He plays Tundra Ponder, draws, pass. I had a good dredge, so I run Study into Pierce, which happens, and I pass. He plays Strand, Stoneforge for Skull. I untap with Ichorid, Amalgam, Therapy, and a couple dredgers in my yard. I return Ichorid, pause, dredge, pause, and move to main. At this point, I'm sure he was just posturing, and swing with Ichorid since what I had should have been obvious. He fetches and Plows my Ichorid, and I proceed to lose. Obviously the safest play was to immediately Therapy. But I couldn't wrap my mind around anyone allowing that play with what was visible. I certainly don't think from what I saw the rest of the match, that he was crafty enough to run such a dangerous gambit. Any reason I'm missing where I should expect that line?

[mistercakes]

parcher, i've ran into that several times on modo. it's very strange, given that they don't plow on the upkeep or at latest the draw step. my understanding is that they are usually very afraid of something else so they are holding up countermagic mana for something....or they simply just overlooked the therapy....or don't understand the concept of priority.

i think generally since StP is so strong vs ichorid, it's worth it just to not deal the 3 damage.

[Parcher]

parcher, i've ran into that several times on modo. it's very strange, given that they don't plow on the upkeep or at latest the draw step. my understanding is that they are usually very afraid of something else so they are holding up countermagic mana for something....or they simply just overlooked the therapy....or don't understand the concept of priority.

i think generally since StP is so strong vs ichorid, it's worth it just to not deal the 3 damage.

I cant argue with the last line. Though playing safe is a very slippery slope with this deck. But I know from the way the rest of the game fell out that he had no other counters. The rest of the other possible reasoning doesn't really make sense to me.

[Ronald Deuce]

Parcher, I have a feeling your opponent wasn't really sure what he was doing there, or he was working with imperfect information or forgot that Therapy's a thing.

I have a related question regarding sequencing. I've been considering slotting in Amalgams in either my main or sideboard the next time I take Dredge out for a spin (I've been on a Storm bender for several months, and there's no end in sight, but I miss Dredge). I was considering replacing my sideboard Street Wraiths with the Amalgams. Which do you all think is a better card to keep around? How often does the varied sequencing between Icky and PAm come up, and do you all think three or four PAms are better than 0-2?

[Parcher]

Parcher, I have a feeling your opponent wasn't really sure what he was doing there, or he was working with imperfect information or forgot that Therapy's a thing.

I have a related question regarding sequencing. I've been considering slotting in Amalgams in either my main or sideboard the next time I take Dredge out for a spin (I've been on a Storm bender for several months, and there's no end in sight, but I miss Dredge). I was considering replacing my sideboard Street Wraiths with the Amalgams. Which do you all think is a better card to keep around? How often does the varied sequencing between Icky and PAm come up, and do you all think three or four PAms are better than 0-2?

Amalgam is still worse than Ichorid. Regardless of what configuration you run. I think if Deathrite is your biggest concern that I would stick with Wraith. If you don't have other slots to devote to speeding your deck vs fast Combo, I would stick with Wraith. Vs Extraction, I think Amalgam is better. I've found a lot of Miracles players are now running Extraction, so he becomes better not only due to this, but also to the timing between he and Ichorid to avoid Terminus. I can't see fitting more than two at most main, with possibly a third in the side. More just has diminishing returns since they require an Ichorid, Narco, or DR to do anything.

[slave]

Amalgam is still worse than Ichorid. Regardless of what configuration you run. I think if Deathrite is your biggest concern that I would stick with Wraith. If you don't have other slots to devote to speeding your deck vs fast Combo, I would stick with Wraith. Vs Extraction, I think Amalgam is better. I've found a lot of Miracles players are now running Extraction, so he becomes better not only due to this, but also to the timing between he and Ichorid to avoid Terminus. I can't see fitting more than two at most main, with possibly a third in the side. More just has diminishing returns since they require an Ichorid, Narco, or DR to do anything.
Icky is still king, no doubt.
I agree with pretty much all of this, although my experience of Miracles is that around me they're still running RiP mainly.
I've taken out LED-dredge twice so far, with 3 and 2 PA's respectively.
2 PA's feels like the most I would want, as more than that will dilute the deck. I still feel like the deck is missing something without some Wraiths or Pimps in there, and PA is kinda competing for the same space. The first time I took out the deck with 3 PA's, I simply took out the Pimps (with no Wraiths). It rolled Miracles with ease, but I didn't really like rumbling without Pimps or Wraiths.

[Parcher]

Icky is still king, no doubt.
I agree with pretty much all of this, although my experience of Miracles is that around me they're still running RiP mainly.
I've taken out LED-dredge twice so far, with 3 and 2 PA's respectively.
2 PA's feels like the most I would want, as more than that will dilute the deck. I still feel like the deck is missing something without some Wraiths or Pimps in there, and PA is kinda competing for the same space. The first time I took out the deck with 3 PA's, I simply took out the Pimps (with no Wraiths). It rolled Miracles with ease, but I didn't really like rumbling without Pimps or Wraiths.

I still run 2 PImp zero Wraith. I think having the additional discard outlet is even more important with Amalgam because you can't afford to have them get stuck in hand.

[Que]

I still run 2 PImp zero Wraith. I think having the additional discard outlet is even more important with Amalgam because you can't afford to have them get stuck in hand.

Maybe run a singleton Phantasmagorian. :U I'm only half serious.

Also yeah that guy you played didn't really know what was going on if he didn't STP your Icky before your main phase. Your play was reasonable considering that knowledge, but you gave him too much credit I guess? Assuming Ichorid was your only creature it might have just been the safer bet to Flashback Cabal Therapy. Its not uncommon that people misplay against this deck or that the opponent messes up their sequencing. At that point the idea of them having a sandbagged STP becomes a little more real.

Its the different levels you put your opponent on.

EDIT: I've predicated some lines of play during a game based off the lack of experience on my opponents part when it came to playing against Dredge. If they didn't counter something obvious or if they glaringly missed a basic interaction then I'm going to put them on a lower level and I might be more liberal with some of my plays because I know that he/she will not see what I'm actually trying to accomplish. I find this last part to be hilarious considering we play with our "hand" revealed the whole time (yay one sided Telepathy). Assuming our opponents actually knew how to play the deck they would have a very good idea of your lines of play.

[slave]

Took out the BLUE version again this week at the local.
Maindeck: 13 Lands, 4 Icky, 1 Prized Amalgam, 2 Pimps.
Sideboard: 1 Ashen Rider, 1 Iona, 2 Dread Return, 3 Firestorm, 4 Force of Will, 2 Lotus Petal, 2 Chain of Vapor.
Went 4-1
Beating Burn 2-0, Combo-Elves 2-1, Grixis 2-1, Hypergenesis 2-0
Lost to Death & Taxes (running maindeck RiP/Helm combo) 0-2

Force/Vapor came in for Grixis, HG + D&T. Firestorm, DR w Iona for Elves. DR, Iona & Petals for Burn.
Saw a lot of Force! I lucked out with a flacid Force (no other blue to pitch) twice during the night, but I countered 3 (Ensnaring Bridge, G-Cage, Shardless Agent), with another Force getting Dazed. D&T just ruined me with STP & RiP, and I didn't see Vapor....

==============================================================================================

Now I can say I've run 3, 2 and 1 PA in the main respectively, each over a single meet (4-5 matches each).
With both 3 and 2 PA's, I ran 3 Icky.

3 PA's felt like too many.
2 was good without feeling like it was impacting the deck too much, with one PA I barely noticed it as I didn't actually see it very often.
I think either 1 or 2 is about right for PA, in future I may lean towards 1 as lately I'm preferring all 4 Icky.
I really don't want to drop my numbers of Icky, or any Studies/B-thru's for it.
I think it's a good card, but if I wasn't trying to make Force work (which I'm still not 100% sold on either) I would probably drop it entirely.

[Parcher]

Took out the BLUE version again this week at the local.
Maindeck: 13 Lands, 4 Icky, 1 Prized Amalgam, 2 Pimps.
Sideboard: 1 Ashen Rider, 1 Iona, 2 Dread Return, 3 Firestorm, 4 Force of Will, 2 Lotus Petal, 2 Chain of Vapor.
Went 4-1
Beating Burn 2-0, Combo-Elves 2-1, Grixis 2-1, Hypergenesis 2-0
Lost to Death & Taxes (running maindeck RiP/Helm combo) 0-2

Force/Vapor came in for Grixis, HG + D&T. Firestorm, DR w Iona for Elves. DR, Iona & Petals for Burn.
Saw a lot of Force! I lucked out with a flacid Force (no other blue to pitch) twice during the night, but I countered 3 (Ensnaring Bridge, G-Cage, Shardless Agent), with another Force getting Dazed. D&T just ruined me with STP & RiP, and I didn't see Vapor....

==============================================================================================

Now I can say I've run 3, 2 and 1 PA in the main respectively, each over a single meet (4-5 matches each).
With both 3 and 2 PA's, I ran 3 Icky.

3 PA's felt like too many.
2 was good without feeling like it was impacting the deck too much, with one PA I barely noticed it as I didn't actually see it very often.
I think either 1 or 2 is about right for PA, in future I may lean towards 1 as lately I'm preferring all 4 Icky.
I really don't want to drop my numbers of Icky, or any Studies/B-thru's for it.
I think it's a good card, but if I wasn't trying to make Force work (which I'm still not 100% sold on either) I would probably drop it entirely.

My experiences pretty my place me in agreement with all of this. Unfortunately, the deck is at the point where small margins matter. So it's that awful stage where you need to continually test switching only one card at a time.

[Ronald Deuce]

Thanks for the feedback regarding Amalgam and Street Wraith! I might start testing again with Amalgam instead of Wraith. I used to run zero Wraith, zero PImp, so I don't feel like I'll be missing it too much, but time will tell.

[Parcher]

I was just recently watching the movie Knuckleball!, about Wakefield and Dickey. And throughout, the correlation between knuckleballers and Dredge players just kept slamming me in the face.

Nobody starts out playing Dredge. It's never an introductory deck to Magic, no matter the format. And even those who have the knowledge to run it initially never choose to. Everybody wants the 96 mph fastball, sort of like Storm. Or wants to paint the corners and eke out every little advantage like Delver. Or even force other players to swing at curveballs and sliders they know they'll never hit, sort of like Miracles. They certainly don't think they'll gain fame and fortune being a junk baller.

Most knuckle ballers are forced to it by injury, or lack of pure talent. Just like most Dredge players choose it initially as a budget deck. But for the great ones. Hough, Wake, the Niekro brothers, it was a calling. Once they start, going back was never really an option. It becomes part of you. Your identity. In some ways, in life, as well as Magic

Knuckle ballers do everything backwards. Their grip, wind up, delivery. All range from slightly different, to completely opposite of what other pitchers do. Obviously it's the same with Dredge. To the point, some don't even consider it playing Magic. Your graveyard is your hand. Your library is just a depleting asset. Your hand is usually irrelevant. No one respects what you do. Though most fear it.

Dredge players rely on the power of their deck, and the fact that it attacks on an axis the most are unprepared for. Also, it preys on Blue based decks specifically, since their primary interactions, which are the most consistent and powerful, don't often line up against what Dredge is trying to do. Knuckle ballers traditionally do best against the better contact hitters. Your Jeter, Olerud, Williams. The smart ones with the great batting average lose all advantage when neither they, nor the pitcher knows exactly where the ball is going. And, in a similar vein, the power hitters can light up a junk baller by just swinging for the fences and getting lucky. Just how a Storm or Sneak just can just blow Dredge out before it even gets going.

In both cases, the player, and/or the manager has to have real intestinal fortitude. Because the fact is, you don't have any guaranteed consistency. You can throw back to back shutouts, or finish X-0 in running tournaments, then give up 5 runs in the 1st inning. With your performing the exact way each time. Throwing a dead ball it just like dredging into your graveyard. You can be mechanically perfect, and the wind can still carry a slow ball dead into the strike zone. It takes a special kind of person to accept this. And to know that if you just stick with it, the averages will even out. Especially with as much on the line as it is in the Majors or a big Magic tournament.

Both Dredge and knuckleballers are linear in strategy and paths to victory. But in both cases, you have to know when to switch up tempo within that strategy. To vary tactics. You can push a Knuckleball close to 90, losing a bit of the dead ball effect to shorten the time the enemy has to react. But if you don't drop some of them under 70mph, the batter will catch on. And most likely take you yard. Same with Dredge. The whole LED into Breakthrough is your most powerful play. And one of the main draws to the deck. But if you don't choose to manage your resources carefully and pick your spots, a Crop Rotation into Bog, or a well-timed Terminus is going to end your tournament in a hurry.

I don't have a conclusion, and I'm sure there's more that I missed. But I just felt like sharing.

[Michael Keller]

It's also important that Dredge players have patience and can accept losing to resolved hate (without answer) over a stretch of bad losses. It's okay, it's just going to happen. It's part of being a Dredge player and comes with the territory.

[Final Fortune]

More so you should just stop carring about losing games to hate altogether, you didn't make a mistake that resulted in your own loss and you can immediately move on to the next game. It's basically the same zen you need in poker whenever you get coolered, oh my KK ran into your AA ... whatever. You basically take turns making the other feel completely helpless to whatever you're doing, tit for tat.

[slave]

======SPOILER ALERT========
So they've just leaked the new white Recruiter of the Guard. A toolbox card for 3cmc that can fetch up Faerie Macabre, Containment Priest etc etc.
A card like this makes a mainboard toolbox approach (think Goblins etc.) completely possible in some (already) strong white decks.
Bugger me backwards. This could hurt us

[Ronald Deuce]

======SPOILER ALERT========
So they've just leaked the new white Recruiter of the Guard. A toolbox card for 3cmc that can fetch up Faerie Macabre, Containment Priest etc etc.
A card like this makes a mainboard toolbox approach (think Goblins etc.) completely possible in some (already) strong white decks.
Bugger me backwards. This could hurt us

FFFFFFFFF-

Storm is gonna take a hit, too...

[Michael Keller]

FFFFFFFFF-

Storm is gonna take a hit, too...

I don't think you have anything to worry about.

[Parcher]

======SPOILER ALERT========
So they've just leaked the new white Recruiter of the Guard. A toolbox card for 3cmc that can fetch up Faerie Macabre, Containment Priest etc etc.
A card like this makes a mainboard toolbox approach (think Goblins etc.) completely possible in some (already) strong white decks.
Bugger me backwards. This could hurt us

It's just too slow. The game should be effectively over by turn three. And if you're running FoW, it's definitely too slow. If they start running a bullet Macabre to go with Recruiter, AND they open with it, you could get blown out. I'll take my chances every time. I've yet to drop a game to DnT while running Force.

Coincidentally, not only will the uptick in DnT be a welcome change, the resulting uptick in Combo should also be good with the Force SB.

[Que]

I've yet to drop a game to DnT while running Force.


You have a list with FOW? What does that look like if I may ask?

[Parcher]

You have a list with FOW? What does that look like if I may ask?


I've been noticing a trend away from permanent based hate lately. RiP, Cage, Priest. Surgical is everywhere. And I've been disappointed in running anti hate for things they don't have and potentially losing to what they do. So, for the last little while I've been working on a new plan. Took it to my first tournament today and went 5-2. Lost to Miracles due to him blind ripping his 2nd Top with Top, Mentor, and 3 lands, and zero cards in hand. Then to my having all 4 Narcomoeba in the last 8 cards of my library. Then lost to Aggro Loam. G2 he had Leyline and I couldn't answer it. G3 my opener on the play was LED, LED, Bthrough, Mine, Coliseum, Troll, Chain. He opened with 2 Leylines. My other matches weren't even close.

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
2 Prized Amalgam
2 Putrid Imp

4 Bridge from Below
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough

4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 City of Brass

2 Lotus Petal
2 Dread Return
1 Griselbrand
2 Firestorm
1 Ashen Rider
4 Force of Will
1 Memory's Journey
2 Chain of Vapor

Amalgam is a fine addition. Not as good as Ichorid, but he does have some other advantages. Better vs Miracles. Makes it really hard to get value from Terminus since Ichorid dies before they return. Really good vs Surgical simply through diversification of threat. Especially vs decks like Grixis, which only has Surgical, and now I have a threat they can't trade tokens with. And obviously makes Dread better. Main thing is, well, he's Blue.

He's the first time the LED version has have enough Blue cards they actually wanted to run to make Force viable. The plan is pretty simple. You don't really need much vs Surgical now. If they run Deathrite you bring Fstorm. Otherwise the Journey plus Dread should be enough. Vs non interactive decks you just go for the Petal plan on the play. On the draw, or vs interactive decks you bring in Force and Chain. It's a bit weak vs Cage, but that's not much of an issue right now. Best part is stuff like Reanimator and Belcher you now have a whole new life against. And much like in Manalaless you have plenty of cards you don't care about pitching. Main thing is, I've found you really don't have a problem keeping LED with Force since you can pretty much sit on one or the other if there's danger. And you don't need to worry about having the wrong answer to hate, unless it's Macabre or Leyline. And Macabre is pretty easy to play around.

If you don't expect other GY decks, the Journey can probably be the 3rd Amalgam. And I'm going to find room for the 3rd Chain. 8 of the top 16 decks were running Leyline for some God forsaken reason. But I was very happy otherwise. Beat 2 Eldrazi today even so. Had a DnT player drop T2 RiP, T3 Priest, and died on turn 3. Forced both of them. I've found Force is at its best on the draw. When you can Loot into it, or the card you want to pitch. Which again goes back to the Cage problem. You can always Chain with Force backup later. And, of course, you can always just protect your draw spells with it if needs be.

I don't have another tournament for a month, or I probably wouldn't post this. But I figured what the hell. Have fun with it. It takes a while to learn how to reevaluate your openers but it's worth it. To bring in just Force, I usually cut 2 PIMP and 2 Ichorid. Cut 2 LED if bringing in Chain as well. Usually on the draw. Rest is pretty standard.

Though the list now is -1 PImp, +1 Fstorm main/-2 Petal,-1 Journey,+1 Unmask,+2 Etruth SB

[slave]

SPOILER = Sanctum Prelate Looks like we'll have a Chalice on legs to contend with, like the format needed it.
I think we might need to consider removal we can cast through Chalice effects even more so now, maybe even maindeck.

[Ronald Deuce]

SPOILER = Sanctum Prelate Looks like we'll have a Chalice on legs to contend with, like the format needed it.
I think we might need to consider removal we can cast through Chalice effects even more so now, maybe even maindeck.

It's actually even worse than that. "Can't cast" is worse than "counter that spell," especially for anyone still banking on Abrupt Decay.

[Que]

If playing against RIP, Containment Priest and Cage still hasn't deterred you then idk how this new card will...

#justundeadthings

[Ronald Deuce]

If playing against RIP, Containment Priest and Cage still hasn't deterred you then idk how this new card will...

#justundeadthings

Yep. "Graveyard Hate: Free since 1994."

[slave]

You're a hard man Que.


It's actually even worse than that. "Can't cast" is worse than "counter that spell," especially for anyone still banking on Abrupt Decay.
Exactly.
Chalice of the Void - "Whenever a player casts a spell with converted mana cost equal to the number of charge counters on Chalice of the Void, counter that spell."
Sanctum Prelate - "Noncreature spells with converted mana cost equal to the chosen number can't be cast."

I agree that Prelate isn't going to matter all that much if we can go off quickly, assuming they're not running maindeck RiP/Helm.
White is going to have Plowshares, Thalia, Containment & Prelate, not to mention Terminus. That's a minefield.

[mistercakes]

anyone here the guy that won the starcity classic? if so, any report? how was amalgam, how were the forces? how was the maindeck firestorm?

[SHABOOGS]

anyone here the guy that won the starcity classic? if so, any report? how was amalgam, how were the forces? how was the maindeck firestorm?
I believe Damon Whitby is Parcher here. Congrats!

[sampi]

anyone here the guy that won the starcity classic? if so, any report? how was amalgam, how were the forces? how was the maindeck firestorm?

I'm assuming good after the result.

Well done parcher!

[snorlaxcom]

Forces were nice on the draw for him g3 vs me at least in rnd 6. Won him the game off my mul to five for t2 trinisphere. His shirt in the victor's photo is legendary. Congrats!

[Parcher]

I'm assuming good after the result.

Well done parcher!


I believe Damon Whitby is Parcher here. Congrats!

Thanks!



Forces were nice on the draw for him g3 vs me at least in rnd 6. Won him the game off my mul to five for t2 trinisphere. His shirt in the victor's photo is legendary. Congrats!

Sorry about the dagger Phil. Tight match as always. And Billy Ray is just unloseable.

[Que]

Good shit Parcher! Congratulations bro.

Do want to know though. How significant was FOW? Would you say you did in fact need it to win multiple games and matches throughout the day? Or was the dredge engine doing its thing for the most part?

[Parcher]

Good shit Parcher! Congratulations bro.

Do want to know though. How significant was FOW? Would you say you did in fact need it to win multiple games and matches throughout the day? Or was the dredge engine doing its thing for the most part?

I can't say I needed it. I can say it performed well. I did not, for the most part, face that many match-ups where it shines most. No Storm, Reanimator, DnT, Stompy/MUD, etc. Decks that can either out-combo me, or rely on hate as their primary interaction. I did play the mirror, but never drew a Force. I had one game against both Blade and Miracles where I led with discarding only one dredger, they both Extracted it in response to a draw, and I Forced their Surgical. I can't say I NEEDED Force there since I can still win. And to be honest, Unmask would have done just as well. But it basically locked the win right then and there. Forcing a 3Sphere from Lands won another game. He opened with Chalice at zero, which I allowed since it was irrelevant vs my hand. Then dropped 3 Sphere, which would have stopped my Bthrough. More importantly, it tapped him out, denying Crop if he had it(he didn't). I mean, it would have shut off Crop as well, but I didn't have another land. That's the primary advantage of Force vs anything but Extraction. Making your opponent waste a turn they can't afford vs me to do nothing. And they have to keep hands that bank on that hate landing since, even if they know about Force, what are they going to do? Not play their hate? It allows Dredge to play a tempo game, while remaining a combo deck. With the card I lose always being far less important, sometimes completely irrelevant, than what Force or Unmask stops. And Amalgam both facilitates Force, helps against Surgical, and feeds Unmask as well. Which is what I supplement Therapy with against Surgical. 4 Serenity was overkill, but that was my fault. After the past two weeks playing in the Aggro Loam and infinite Elzrazi variation infested Baltimore area, I forgot how Blue heavy SCG is.

[alaska]

Well done, Parcher. This FoW list is inspiring me to dust off my dredge cards.


Would you (or anybody) mind briefly outlining some sideboard strategies?


Ive never felt fully confident with my dredge sideboarding skill. Too much can dilute us terribly, too little can leave us cold to hate.


Do you ever side out dredgers? How about LEDs? Obviously they are a nonbo with FoW, but are they explosive enough to keep in?


What's the absolute top number of sideboard anti hate we should bring in?

6 cards? 7?

[Parcher]

I can't give a SB guide this time. I'm still figuring it all out myself. There are a few things I'm pretty set on. Force does not at all come in against Tempo decks. That's what Unmask and Fstorm are for. If they start to run permanent based hate again, then the SB will need to be revised. Generally, Force comes in vs non Tempo, meaning mostly Delver, decks with non-Leyline permanent based hate. If they don't run countermagic I generally just board in the Forces for 1 each Pimp, Ichorid, Firestorm and City. Your goal is to fill the board as quickly as possible vs these decks. And Force is just an insurance policy in case you can't before they land hate. If it's something more like Miracles, I'll board in both the Forces and 1 Unmask, removing LEDs since while they do have counters, not many are for turn one. Also, it's a hedge since some run Surgical and others run RiP. I think that's the only deck I bring both in. Main thing to remember is there's no downside to running Force with LED if they don't have counters or instant speed hate. You always know what you're going to get. To be honest, Force is still fine if they start running Surgical. That's a mistake to begin with, running Surgical in a deck with no other stack interactions. But I'd just swap out LED in that case. Since if Bthrough resolves, you don't care if like DnT has one Surgical you can't now counter.

EDIT: Also, I'd be lying if I didn't mention how irked I am that I posted all this over two months ago, and no one had any belief or even interest until they see my lists on TCdecks or the like. I'd have thought I've earned the benefit of the doubt by now.

[alaska]

Cheers, that's good food for thought.


As for lack of belief, it's more lack of knowledge on my part. Real life has prevented me from paying too much attention to Legacy for several months. I tune back in to see Dredge with FoW smashing face, only natural that interest gets piqued.


Besides, you have documented evidence to back up your I told you So's.


Best feeling there is!

[slave]

EDIT: Also, I'd be lying if I didn't mention how irked I am that I posted all this over two months ago, and no one had any belief or even interest until they see my lists on TCdecks or the like. I'd have thought I've earned the benefit of the doubt by now.
LOL - I was paying attention. :wink: Well done Parcher, good work!

Yeah I've found that boarding in Force isn't the ducks nuts for everything.
I've taken a break from Dredge lately, but having run the Force-side 3 times (see previous), I wanted to test it out against everything meaningful for testings sake, so I wasn't trying to be focussed. Next time I'll focus less on testing and more on winning.
I think you're right about not using Force for tempo like Grixis, using FOW for Miracles and for any deck not running counter. There's obviously exceptions.
I would suggest running Force against any deck running white for RiP.
Given Eldrazi usually run LotV, Force is little help there, and Claims usually aren't much help through Chalice either - I really hate that deck.

I've run the blue side in Manaless dredge for quite a while, so whilst I have some experience there about what/how/when in that context, using Force here is fairly different as we can actually mulligan - shock horror! - so there has been quite a few slow hands I've kept simply because I've had a force & blue ready to fire against the impending RiP/Cage whatever.
What about you Parcher?
Have you been keeping slow, but playable hands with an active Force, that you would normally shuffle back in?

RE: the blue side (SPOILER ALERT)
Ceremonious Rejection. Stops Chalice, Eldrazi, Vials, Charbelcher, Grafdigger's Cage just to name a few.
I'll probably do some testing with this card, but I'm looking at this card as *a little narrow*.
I've not seen any of the other spoiled cards being useful for us yet.

[Parcher]

LOL - I was paying attention. :wink: Well done Parcher, good work!

Yeah I've found that boarding in Force isn't the ducks nuts for everything.
I've taken a break from Dredge lately, but having run the Force-side 3 times (see previous), I wanted to test it out against everything meaningful for testings sake, so I wasn't trying to be focussed. Next time I'll focus less on testing and more on winning.
I think you're right about not using Force for tempo like Grixis, using FOW for Miracles and for any deck not running counter. There's obviously exceptions.
I would suggest running Force against any deck running white for RiP.
Given Eldrazi usually run LotV, Force is little help there, and Claims usually aren't much help through Chalice either - I really hate that deck.

I've run the blue side in Manaless dredge for quite a while, so whilst I have some experience there about what/how/when in that context, using Force here is fairly different as we can actually mulligan - shock horror! - so there has been quite a few slow hands I've kept simply because I've had a force & blue ready to fire against the impending RiP/Cage whatever.
What about you Parcher?
Have you been keeping slow, but playable hands with an active Force, that you would normally shuffle back in?

RE: the blue side (SPOILER ALERT)
Ceremonious Rejection. Stops Chalice, Eldrazi, Vials, Charbelcher, Grafdigger's Cage just to name a few.
I'll probably do some testing with this card, but I'm looking at this card as *a little narrow*.
I've not seen any of the other spoiled cards being useful for us yet.

I agree that Force is the best card vs RiP. And vs decks running it, or Priest, I will keep slower hands with Force. The extra draw step or two often feeds you the draw spell while waiting on their hate. Conversely, you can freely go all in on those decks without Force since their only way to punish you is a single draw step. Aggro Loam and Eldrazi with Leyline are a bitch, hence the 4 Serenity, which ignores Chalice or multiples. Also, with big Thalia, Recruiter, and Prelate, a lot or the Eldrazi are now splashing Wnite. Which means RiP. Which means we have a much easier time with Force.

[Ronald Deuce]

I agree that Force is the best card vs RiP. And vs decks running it, or Priest, I will keep slower hands with Force. The extra draw step or two often feeds you the draw spell while waiting on their hate. Conversely, you can freely go all in on those decks without Force since their only way to punish you is a single draw step. Aggro Loam and Eldrazi with Leyline are a bitch, hence the 4 Serenity, which ignores Chalice or multiples. Also, with big Thalia, Recruiter, and Prelate, a lot or the Eldrazi are now splashing Wnite. Which means RiP. Which means we have a much easier time with Force.

First of all, congratulations!

I still have some trouble against Eldrazi when I'm Dredging, though it's a lot better a matchup than it is for Storm, which is what I've been playing primarily for some time now. I'm curious as to how you side for the Eldrazi matchup. My strategy for game 2 (or when on the draw) was to 'board in more Dread Returns and targets for it, because a resolved Rider, Archon, or Elesh Norn ranges from pretty good to excellent in the matchup (Archon is almost an auto-win), and because there's a good chance Chalice would lock up our looting effects (except for Breakthrough) pretty much immediately. I'm not happy with the speedbump a Chalice on 1 presents, though, and I hate running mana-dredge without much looting. So I'm wondering what you've tried, what has worked, what hasn't, etc.

How do you feel about the number of Amalgams? I started testing it as a double in my maindeck last week, and it feels pretty sweet. Slow to attack but fast to power up a Dread Return. Would you consider going to 3-4 maindeck?

Again, well done on rocking everybody!

[Parcher]

First of all, congratulations!

I still have some trouble against Eldrazi when I'm Dredging, though it's a lot better a matchup than it is for Storm, which is what I've been playing primarily for some time now. I'm curious as to how you side for the Eldrazi matchup. My strategy for game 2 (or when on the draw) was to 'board in more Dread Returns and targets for it, because a resolved Rider, Archon, or Elesh Norn ranges from pretty good to excellent in the matchup (Archon is almost an auto-win), and because there's a good chance Chalice would lock up our looting effects (except for Breakthrough) pretty much immediately. I'm not happy with the speedbump a Chalice on 1 presents, though, and I hate running mana-dredge without much looting. So I'm wondering what you've tried, what has worked, what hasn't, etc.

How do you feel about the number of Amalgams? I started testing it as a double in my maindeck last week, and it feels pretty sweet. Slow to attack but fast to power up a Dread Return. Would you consider going to 3-4 maindeck?

Again, well done on rocking everybody!

Again. The 4 Serenity are for Eldrazi and Loam(Chalice/Leyline). Won't go into detail on it again. I would add more mana to ensure casting them, but have no room, and it's more important just to draw one. I never bring Dread against hard hate like Eldrazi. Everything else has to already be going right for it to be anything but a dead card. And just swarming the board beats them easily. 2 Amalgams seems right. They're not great in game one, though they do allay the removal of MD Dread. And since they require Narco or Ichorid to do anything, there's a definite point of diminishing returns.

[Ronald Deuce]

Again. The 4 Serenity are for Eldrazi and Loam(Chalice/Leyline). Won't go into detail on it again. I would add more mana to ensure casting them, but have no room, and it's more important just to draw one. I never bring Dread against hard hate like Eldrazi. Everything else has to already be going right for it to be anything but a dead card. And just swarming the board beats them easily. 2 Amalgams seems right. They're not great in game one, though they do allay the removal of MD Dread. And since they require Narco or Ichorid to do anything, there's a definite point of diminishing returns.

Thanks for the feedback! I heard you about Serenity; was wondering whether you did anything else. If you've gone over other things you do for the matchup, I'll go digging in the thread.

[Plague Sliver]

For Parcher fans...

Damon Whitby, a.k.a. Parcher. One of the original proponents of the Legacy, or 1.5, format.

https://soundcloud.com/humansofmagic/episode-017-damon-whitby

http://i.imgur.com/WwVx1AQl.jpg

“The most important lesson I’ve learned is letting that which truly does not matter, go.”

Damon Whitby has been advancing the Legacy format for over a decade. These days he can usually be found terrorizing opponents with his Dredge deck, although he has played a wide range of archetypes over the years.

This episode is filled with Damon’s experiences and musings on life. Never one to hold back, he talks about his rough childhood and what lies beneath his gruff exterior. Damon also talks about the mid-Atlantic Magic scene and some of the best players he’s interacted with. In many instances, the discussions verged into personal and life-related observations. The honesty really came through in this conversation.

As someone who grew up with The Source, I hope that I have done Damon justice in representing his views and that you will enjoy this recording.

Time stamps:

[4:33] Introduction
[7:01] Early childhood // family history // Seattle memories
[12:00] Hanging out with the punks
[14:57] Hooked on wargames
[19:58] Joining the army
[20:40] Games Workshop in Maryland
[22:47] Magic first impressions
[27:24] Breaking out of casual play with Pros-Bloom
[30:59] Meeting top local players and pros: Matt Linde, Kyle Rose, Brock Parker
[36:10] How “Huey” Jensen got his nickname
[38:06] Building the White Weenie deck that Linde won Nationals with
[39:47] Mike Long and Tongo Nation
[41:22] The greatest match ever played in Rochester draft
[43:50] Success at ’98 Regionals
[45:59] Transitioning to Extended and Legacy // First contact with The Source
[48:32] The Virginia crew: Anwar Ahmad, The Hatfields, David Gearhart, Dan Signorini, Dave Price, and Jesse Krieger
[53:25] Virgnia vs. Syracuse rivalry
[54:27] Perceptions of Legacy and its legitimacy
[58:06] Alix Hatfield: the best deck builder
[1:02:20] Mental preparation and honing one’s deck over time
[1:05:31] The importance of format knowledge
[1:08:43] The luckiest man in the world with Cabal Therapy?
[1 : 10 : 39] “Where other people have decision trees, I see my job as pruning the trees.”
[1 : 14 : 32] Dredge puts the fear into opponents // Letting opponents beat themselves
[1:20:12] Team Dredge goes on a tear // Keeping things fresh
[1:25:39] “I am my [tournament] record” — a fallacy
[1:27:53] Learning to let go of things that don’t matter
[1:29:23] On being direct
[1:31:47] Perceptions people have of Damon
[1:24:16] On legitimately disliking some people
[1:36:22] “You don’t break somebody else’s rice bowl to refill your own.”
[1:38:04] Origins of the name Parcher
[1:39:22] Dan Signorini
[1:45:32] Helping Dan prepare for PT Honolulu // Shaheen Soorani // Alex Majlaton
[1:47:32] From one generation to the next
[1:48:54] Ben Friedman’s rapid growth as a person
[1:52:10] Jarvis Yu
[1:55:14] “At his heart, Dan is a gigantic nerd” // judging a book by its cover
[1:59:44] Why BBD is a great player
[2:04:50] The power of listening // Signal to noise in the online community
[2:07:10] Generalizing Magic lessons to life
[2 : 12 : 50] How has the game been detrimental to Damon?
[2:17:03] Shoutout to the mid-Atlantic area

[jimmythegreek]

Opening hand: mana confluence, led, pimp, breakthrough, grave-troll, thug and careful study. I would like to preface the discussion based on the unknown information of the opponent and being on the play. This hand is an obvious keep and can play a bit more controlling ( running out imp) or crazy fast casting breakthrough/led shenanigans. If I were to cast imp and then get wastelanded (good players know how deadly our lands are especially in the first couple turns and will waste us even though it sets them back) our hand know becomes a bit anaemic. Casting careful study draws us answers to facilitate the potential to negate wasteland, hopefully drawing lands and making for an insane second turn. I think hands that look this good can influence too quick a play without a true understanding of what potential plays can come from our opponent. " I really don't wanna get blown out by force, I better play pimp!" Even if my careful study gets countered I can still run out imp turn two or go ballistic. In my experience finding the most explosive turn two and threes are where dredge becomes a juggernaut, of course game two sometimes we have to "go for it." It's important to realize our first looting will often be countered and our potentially only land may not be available on turn two. Learning to sculpt a RESILIENT hand against the possibilities of two extremely prevalent (and sometimes backbreaking) cards of the format. Turn one we can be as devastating as almost any deck in the game but turn two (either with known information or running out a counter spell) we can be nearly unstoppable.

[hellhound]

Opening hand: mana confluence, led, pimp, breakthrough, grave-troll, thug and careful study. I would like to preface the discussion based on the unknown information of the opponent and being on the play. This hand is an obvious keep and can play a bit more controlling ( running out imp) or crazy fast casting breakthrough/led shenanigans. If I were to cast imp and then get wastelanded (good players know how deadly our lands are especially in the first couple turns and will waste us even though it sets them back) our hand know becomes a bit anaemic. Casting careful study draws us answers to facilitate the potential to negate wasteland, hopefully drawing lands and making for an insane second turn. I think hands that look this good can influence too quick a play without a true understanding of what potential plays can come from our opponent. " I really don't wanna get blown out by force, I better play pimp!" Even if my careful study gets countered I can still run out imp turn two or go ballistic. In my experience finding the most explosive turn two and threes are where dredge becomes a juggernaut, of course game two sometimes we have to "go for it." It's important to realize our first looting will often be countered and our potentially only land may not be available on turn two. Learning to sculpt a RESILIENT hand against the possibilities of two extremely prevalent (and sometimes backbreaking) cards of the format. Turn one we can be as devastating as almost any deck in the game but turn two (either with known information or running out a counter spell) we can be nearly unstoppable.

@jimmythegreek:
On the play, Unknown Opponent, Preside, Opening Hand:
Land
Breakthrough
Pimp
GGT
Thug
LED
Careful

Quick answer:
Land, LED : [no FOW], Breakthrough OR [FOW], Careful

Long answer:
obiouvsly goldfishing the best start is land, led, breakthrough so let's see how many times we can do this. According to mtggoldfish about 44% of the meta plays FOW:
13.10% miracles
10.30% grixis delver
4.72% BUG
4.72% UR delver
3.43% Canadian thr.
3.43% 4c Delver
2.15% Sneak&show
tot 41.85% -> rounded to 44% due to rogue decks with FOW
this means that 56% of the times we are goldfishing on turn one so land, led, breakthrough is the best start.
then also if they play FOW they have the 40% to have it in starting 7 so the actual probability to met a turn 1 FOW isn't 44% but it becomes 17.60%.

and if we find ourselves in that 17.60%?

we have 2 scenarios, they FOW LED or they don't
-if they don't FOW LED, we can proceed to breakthrough and crack and they will obv FOW ur spell -> we still have 2 dredgers in GY and can slowroll anyway during following turns.

-if they do FOW LED, what's the better play?
pimp and careful are the contenders here and cards that matters on this play are daze and wasteland.

- Pimp blanks none of these cards, having just one land means we can't cast another spell if they have one of those cards above (waste on our only land or daze our next spell), committing us to slowroll.
- careful instead can search for a second land blanking both wasteland and daze, if we're unlucky and will see no lands still we can slowrolling with 2 dredgers in gy

my2cents

[SHABOOGS]

I'd go with LED, Land, Study pitching the 2 dredgers in the yard as my opening play against an unknown opponent. I play LED first as an attempt to delay my opponent in identifying my deck because if I play the land first, they would already know I'm on Dredge and would increase the chance of LED being countered by FoW. Worst case, if they Force either of those two, I can still go for PImp on turn 2 then BT the next turn. If they don't, the I start dredging next turn and get more information before I attempt to go off. Going all in with Land, LED, BT, hold prio, crack LED is too risky in my opinion against an unknown opponent. If they force BT then I'm just left with slow dredge for the remainder of the game. My 0.02

[hellhound]

I'd go with LED, Land, Study pitching the 2 dredgers in the yard as my opening play against an unknown opponent. I play LED first as an attempt to delay my opponent in identifying my deck because if I play the land first, they would already know I'm on Dredge and would increase the chance of LED being countered by FoW. Worst case, if they Force either of those two, I can still go for PImp on turn 2 then BT the next turn. If they don't, the I start dredging next turn and get more information before I attempt to go off. Going all in with Land, LED, BT, hold prio, crack LED is too risky in my opinion against an unknown opponent. If they force BT then I'm just left with slow dredge for the remainder of the game. My 0.02

sorry but i miss why you should play around something when 8/10 you can bust them and 2/10 you have the same results...

[SHABOOGS]

It's not the same results for 2/10 since you still have BT and PImp in your hand that you can cast next turn as supposed to going all in with LED+BT and getting BT countered on turn 1 since study and PImp will be discarded as part of LED's cost and would have to slow dredge for the rest of the game which isn't ideal. If I only had LED, BT, Land, and Dredger in my opening hand I would consider going off on turn 1 but given the opening hand provided as an example, I would make use of the other enablers as bait to ensure that I can go off successfully.

[Ronald Deuce]

Against an unknown opponent, I'd go land, LED, Careful Study. On the other hand, if we know we're up against countermagic and with the fact I personally don't run PImp notwithstanding, I actually think it's a better play T1 than either Careful or Breakthrough (the reason I don't run PImp is that I don't think it's a good play after that compared with the looters).

I'd go Land, LED, PImp. They're most likely to Force the LED, and this way, even if they do, we get two Loots on the two subsequent turns with the opponent at -2 cards, and we've got a discard outlet to bin a Dredger right away. If they don't, and they Force the PImp (which I wouldn't recommend), we still get double-Loots with an LED that's live. Even if we get Wasted, we can still start Dredging if we land the PImp.

Postboard, I think PImp is likely too slow to be good, but one advantage is that it doesn't commit our starting Dredger right into a fast Extraction or Crypt.

[EDIT: Whoops! On the play, leading with LED is probably a good idea. On the draw, I'd think opening with a land is safer in case of Daze.]

[slave]

I like these theory posts. :smile:


I play LED first as an attempt to delay my opponent in identifying my deck .....
This is how I would play a Land & LED opener against an unknown opponent.
If they don't force the LED in anticipation of what you're holding, I would drop the land and proceed with Pimp.
If they do force LED, I usually assume they're not holding two active force and would drop the Land > B-thru.

[Oestrus]

Happy Hump Day!

http://mythicspoiler.com/kld/cards/catharticreunion.jpg

[slave]

Happy Hump Day!
http://mythicspoiler.com/kld/cards/catharticreunion.jpg
LOL, I came here to post about this too!

Honestly, I highly doubt I'll ever play this here in dredge given our other options and lack of mana sources, but I'm happy there's something to talk about.
That said, draw 3 isn't something to sneeze at.
The multiplayer/casual player in me is loving this new set (and the last one), lots of fun cards so far, even if there isn't anything I'd consider a *lock* for Dredge.

[Francisco Pires]

I have been watching some led dredge decklists and some of them play with 3 or 4 abrupt decay in sideboard.
Is it worth to play abrupt decay in sideboard? I love the card but it's a quite hard to get 2 lands in play consistently.
Btw, why some decklists run lotus petal in sideboard?

PS: sorry for my english

[jimmythegreek]

I have been watching some led dredge decklists and some of them play with 3 or 4 abrupt decay in sideboard.
Is it worth to play abrupt decay in sideboard? I love the card but it's a quite hard to get 2 lands in play consistently.
Btw, why some decklists run lotus petal in sideboard?

PS: sorry for my english
My best advice is to read the entire thread. Not only will you find the answers your looking for but many other questions you may have. I know personally i've read this thread twice through and its helped me immensely. Please take the time to acknowledge the history and hard work of others that goes into the led dredge archetype thread.

[Ronald Deuce]

I have been watching some led dredge decklists and some of them play with 3 or 4 abrupt decay in sideboard.
Is it worth to play abrupt decay in sideboard? I love the card but it's a quite hard to get 2 lands in play consistently.
Btw, why some decklists run lotus petal in sideboard?

PS: sorry for my english

In large part, it depends on whom you ask.

Personally, I don't like Abrupt Decay in the deck. It gets around countermagic, which is big, but it's got a lot of downsides. We need to hit two painlands, Gemstone Mines, and/or Lotus Petals to make it work (out of 8-14 in a deck with no manipulation to speak of), and it does nothing once it's in our graveyard. Cephalid Coliseum does nothing here. Decay also doesn't target Leyline. If you look at, e.g., Serenity, it's vulnerable to countermagic but it doesn't require that we hit two colored sources (neither of which is blue), which Decay needs.

It appears that people run Lotus Petal to boost speed, allowing, e.g., Putrid Imp and a Loot spell in the first turn or to allow a quick Decay if they feel like it's necessary. I'm not sure how important it is—I tend to run anti-hate and Dread Return targets, and the last time I tested Lotus Petal I simply never found it—but it's worth a shot. I'm thinking about putting it in my 'board again.

[SHABOOGS]

New card from Kaladesh might be worth looking at:

Fragmentize - W
Sorcery
Destroy target artifact of enchantment with cmc 4 or less.

It's similar to Nature's Claim since it can hit leyline. And it doesn't have life gain. Only drawback is it's sorcery speed.

[slave]

Fragmentize

Good catch shaboog's - that's the first card in the set that looks halfway useful.
Compare to Nature's Claim & Natural State.
I'm not sure how much the sorcery speed matters yet....

[slave]

Well the whole set has been spoiled now - I don't see anything interesting for us besides those already mentioned.

[GoldenCid]

Woooooww, i have been a couple of months out of the game and... .zassss fow in dredge!
I thought that it only worth in the manaless version.
Do we have enought blue source??

[Ronald Deuce]

Woooooww, i have been a couple of months out of the game and... .zassss fow in dredge!
I thought that it only worth in the manaless version.
Do we have enought blue source??

Well, I'm going to try to run a quad when I get my hands on two more Forces. Postboard, that'd be 2 PAms, 3 Breakthroughs, 4 Studies, 4 Narcos, and 4 Forces, so 16 pitchable blue cards (17 if people run a fourth Breakthrough). I'm running 14 pitchables postboard right now with two Forces. Also gets around—and answers—Chalice, RiP, and Cage, and it only gets better against Painter. Haven't had much opportunity to test it, but preliminarily I'm sold.

[Parcher]

Had my best Force story today. G3 vs Miracles. He leads with Top. I Therapy his RiP. Semi go off, discarding his castables, and have 8 power. He tops, fetches, tops into RiP. I draw a 3rd land, swing him to 10. He plays land, tops, passes. I draw Narcomoeba, swing him to 2. He casts Terminus. I draw Stinkweed, cast Narcomoeba. He plays land 4 and passes. I draw Force, swing with Narco, he bounces it with Venser, I cast Imp, pass. He fetches to 1 and windmill slams Baneslayer, which I Force with the Narco he bounced. Swing for 1 with Imp. :)

[Michael Keller]

Had my best Force story today. G3 vs Miracles. He leads with Top. I Therapy his RiP. Semi go off, discarding his castables, and have 8 power. He tops, fetches, tops into RiP. I draw a 3rd land, swing him to 10. He plays land, tops, passes. I draw Narcomoeba, swing him to 2. He casts Terminus. I draw Stinkweed, cast Narcomoeba. He plays land 4 and passes. I draw Force, swing with Narco, he bounces it with Venser, I cast Imp, pass. He fetches to 1 and windmill slams Baneslayer, which I Force with the Narco he bounced. Swing for 1 with Imp. :)

https://media.giphy.com/media/a0Lgc1JvbfS4o/giphy.gif

[Parcher]

To elaborate a bit; I've played in 5 tournaments over the past two months with the Force list, finishing 9th on tiebreakers, 1st, 2nd, 1st, and 10th(deserved). My only losses were to huge amounts of luck; A Shardless empty-hand blind ripping a one-of Spellbomb when it was the only card to save them. A Lands player empty-hand blind ripping a Crop for Bog, then my drawing 12 cards off one each Bthrough, Study, Looting, then Coliseum, without seeing a single dredger. And the like. To one egregious mistake; having two Narcomoebas to deal with Pfire and a represented Marit Lage, and not keeping them back. And, by far the most losses(which still isn't a lot, but...)were to Leyline. Twice I lost to multiple Leylines when I had Chain in hand, and they didn't have Chalice or I had Force for it. So I switched to Serenity, which my testing showed I needed one more mana source for, so I cut the 3rd Fstorm for a Petal. Could have cast it 3 times over, but even with 3 loots and a Bthrough for 3(!), never found one. Lost a 3rd time to that fucking card.

I'm sort of at a loss. I have the slots to devote. Haven't had too many problems with this configuration against other decks. Delver has become a battle due to having little to directly SB for. But it's such a favorable matchup, I'm fine with that. And I've had no mana problems. Could always cast Serenity. Which is worth to cost due to multiple Leylines or Chalice. But I can't resign myself to tossing back a T1-2 win, to mull to anti-hate that they HAVE to open with. Also, I think some of the locals know this, and will mull to Leyline no matter what. It's here where the downside of Serenity shows. Since it's very difficult to mull to it, and find a hand that can both cast it, and fulfill the deck's primary strategy. And Colorless Eldrazi and 4C Loam are a good 10% of the Mid-Atlantic meta right now, so I can't just ignore Leyline. :rolleyes:

[Ronald Deuce]

Fragmentize

Good catch shaboog's - that's the first card in the set that looks halfway useful.
Compare to Nature's Claim & Natural State.
I'm not sure how much the sorcery speed matters yet....

I don't know how often it comes up, but Ray of Revelation's major strength is that we can snipe Rest in Peace with its exile trigger on the stack. Sorceries can't do that; then again, Ray's flashback plays a pretty important part there, too.

[Michael Keller]

To elaborate a bit; I've played in 5 tournaments over the past two months with the Force list, finishing 9th on tiebreakers, 1st, 2nd, 1st, and 10th(deserved). My only losses were to huge amounts of luck; A Shardless empty-hand blind ripping a one-of Spellbomb when it was the only card to save them. A Lands player empty-hand blind ripping a Crop for Bog, then my drawing 12 cards off one each Bthrough, Study, Looting, then Coliseum, without seeing a single dredger. And the like. To one egregious mistake; having two Narcomoebas to deal with Pfire and a represented Marit Lage, and not keeping them back. And, by far the most losses(which still isn't a lot, but...)were to Leyline. Twice I lost to multiple Leylines when I had Chain in hand, and they didn't have Chalice or I had Force for it. So I switched to Serenity, which my testing showed I needed one more mana source for, so I cut the 3rd Fstorm for a Petal. Could have cast it 3 times over, but even with 3 loots and a Bthrough for 3(!), never found one. Lost a 3rd time to that fucking card.

I'm sort of at a loss. I have the slots to devote. Haven't had too many problems with this configuration against other decks. Delver has become a battle due to having little to directly SB for. But it's such a favorable matchup, I'm fine with that. And I've had no mana problems. Could always cast Serenity. Which is worth to cost due to multiple Leylines or Chalice. But I can't resign myself to tossing back a T1-2 win, to mull to anti-hate that they HAVE to open with. Also, I think some of the locals know this, and will mull to Leyline no matter what. It's here where the downside of Serenity shows. Since it's very difficult to mull to it, and find a hand that can both cast it, and fulfill the deck's primary strategy. And Colorless Eldrazi and 4C Loam are a good 10% of the Mid-Atlantic meta right now, so I can't just ignore Leyline. :rolleyes:

Have you considered Tranquil Domain at all, Damon? I mean, if you're seeing Leyline enough in droves where it's a problem - including cards like Rest in Peace - would something like that be a viable option? It's also easier to cast when you run Cephalid Coliseum (which is the opposite with Abrupt Decay), so perhaps it's worth at least considering as an instant-speed answer to Leyline and RiP if they're becoming an issue.

[Parcher]

Have you considered Tranquil Domain at all, Damon? I mean, if you're seeing Leyline enough in droves where it's a problem - including cards like Rest in Peace - would something like that be a viable option? It's also easier to cast when you run Cephalid Coliseum (which is the opposite with Abrupt Decay), so perhaps it's worth at least considering as an instant-speed answer to Leyline and RiP if they're becoming an issue.

The vast majority of the Leyline decks run Chalice, which is it's own issue. Instant speed isn't worth the trade off of removing Chalice as well as Leyline with Serenity.

[Michael Keller]

So the idea would then be conceding to the fact that Leyline decks (which run Chalice) also shuts down Chain of Vapor. It's also worth noting that these decks that run Chalice with Leyline also tend to run Wasteland, so getting to Decay mana could be tricky if you're trying to wipe that out. Honestly, Serenity seems like it's the most viable option regardless if it's an enchantment that sits around a turn. Those decks also really don't have answers to it, so it seems like the best way to eliminate those problem cards in one fell swoop.

[Parcher]

Not to mention the Chain doesn't hit multiple Leylines.

But, yes. I am pretty certain that Serenity is the call. And that my current configuration can support them. Basically just bitching that I've had several big runs spoiled because my opponents mull to Leyline, and I can never find a Serenity. :cry:

[Que]

I once thought we completely ignored 2CMC sb options or cards in general as the consensus was that we wouldn't be able to reliably cast these cards. I'm only bringing it up because if we determine that this is not the case then get a slew of options at 2CMC regardless of whether they're the most optimal or not. I believe you mentioned yourself Damon that you had to add an additional Lotus Petal (total mana sources?) Is its effect just that good? Do you ever have problems casting it? or do the games go long enough where its not a problem.

Perhaps its just matchup dependent. Like I can't see boarding in Serenity against D & T. I just don't see how I would even resolve that in the face of Wasteland, Port, and Thalia, given the limited number of mana sources we have.


EDIT: I personally play Abrupt Decay at the moment, but I do bring in the Lotus Petal out of the board to supplement them. I have gotten mana naturally to cast these at times without the petals, but its much rarer and unreliable to make me consider running Decay without them.

[Parcher]

I once thought we completely ignored 2CMC sb options or cards in general as the consensus was that we wouldn't be able to reliably cast these cards. I'm only bringing it up because if we determine that this is not the case then get a slew of options at 2CMC regardless of whether they're the most optimal or not. I believe you mentioned yourself Damon that you had to add an additional Lotus Petal (total mana sources?) Is its effect just that good? Do you ever have problems casting it? or do the games go long enough where its not a problem.

Perhaps its just matchup dependent. Like I can't see boarding in Serenity against D & T. I just don't see how I would even resolve that in the face of Wasteland, Port, and Thalia, given the limited number of mana sources we have.


EDIT: I personally play Abrupt Decay at the moment, but I do bring in the Lotus Petal out of the board to supplement them. I have gotten mana naturally to cast these at times without the petals, but its much rarer and unreliable to make me consider running Decay without them.

I think it's obvious that I don't have an issue running 2CMC cards out of the SB. Since I started running Decay with Petals over two years ago. And Wear/Tear before that. And it does open up other SB options, but I don't believe the trade off in consistency is worth it.

That said, I ONLY bring in the Serenities vs Leyline/Chalice decks. Or random outliers like MUD. 14 mana sources is enough to reliably cast them. The issue is that it's not enough to mull to them. That is to say, I don't believe it's worth it to mull a hand that is likely to win if they don't have Leyline, to try and find an answer to Leyline. The odds of hitting the Serenity, the mana to cast it, and action, are too slim. There's the issue. I could run something like Wispmare, much easier to cast. But then you run into the multiple Leyline problem. Or the they still have Chalice problem, because you can't get started through it. And you've devoted the same amount of slots to the problem, diluting your deck just as much. I don't believe that the latter is a better option. Though it does give at least the possibility to play through Chalice, I don't believe the odds of winning there are significantly better.

And for at least the third time; I bring in only Force vs. DnT. I haven't come anywhere close to losing to that deck since this change. It's incredibly easy to either put enough on board to win before their hate, or just counter their hate and do as you please. The White Stompy decks running the full 4 RiP have been almost as easy. I think I've dropped one game.

[Smea.gol.lum]

Have you considered Energy Field against Leyline? After dropping it you could beat your opponent with Narcomoebas and Stinkweed Imps to death.

One problem is that most opponents don't necessarily mull to Leyline. Decks that also run Deathrite Shaman probably mull to either Leyline or Shaman and Eldrazi pilots to either Chalice or Leyline.
Another problem is that decks that run Leylines could also run Decays or in case of Eldrazi Ratchet Bombs, so dropping Energy Field isn't a guaranteed win.

All in all, this could be one of my many silly ideas :P Just some food for thoughts, you have the experience!

[slave]

We can't support it of course, but if we could, Standstill would be hilarious in Dredge.
I'm just daydreaming with Force in mind.... :tongue:


Well, I'm going to try to run a quad when I get my hands on two more Forces.
Postboard, that'd be 2 PAms, 3 Breakthroughs, 4 Studies, 4 Narcos, and 4 Forces, so 16 pitchable blue cards (17 if people run a fourth Breakthrough).
I've been running the same as above, but with 4 Bthru - it's feels blue enough, I've had a few whiffs but not a lot surprisingly


I am pretty certain that Serenity is the call.
I like Serenity. I think you're right on this one, although;
The more I play Legacy, the more common Chalice seems to get - we definitely need a way to answer RiP & Cage thru X=1.
Abrupt Decay is good too, but Serenity essentially being able to kill anything that Bridges doesn't care about, even if it is vulnerable to both removal and counter, is pretty handy.

[Ronald Deuce]

Have you considered Energy Field against Leyline? After dropping it you could beat your opponent with Narcomoebas and Stinkweed Imps to death.

One problem is that most opponents don't necessarily mull to Leyline. Decks that also run Deathrite Shaman probably mull to either Leyline or Shaman and Eldrazi pilots to either Chalice or Leyline.
Another problem is that decks that run Leylines could also run Decays or in case of Eldrazi Ratchet Bombs, so dropping Energy Field isn't a guaranteed win.

All in all, this could be one of my many silly ideas :P Just some food for thoughts, you have the experience!

That feels like a super-slow plan to me. Gut says you'd end up burning yourself out with Confluences, Coliseums, and Cities of Brass in order to keep pressure on the opponent, and any of your creatures that died would disappear forever. And all that is assuming they don't just shoot the Energy Field with something and counterattack with six 2/1s for the kill.

[Que]

I think it's obvious that I don't have an issue running 2CMC cards out of the SB. Since I started running Decay with Petals over two years ago. And Wear/Tear before that. And it does open up other SB options, but I don't believe the trade off in consistency is worth it.

That said, I ONLY bring in the Serenities vs Leyline/Chalice decks. Or random outliers like MUD. 14 mana sources is enough to reliably cast them. The issue is that it's not enough to mull to them. That is to say, I don't believe it's worth it to mull a hand that is likely to win if they don't have Leyline, to try and find an answer to Leyline. The odds of hitting the Serenity, the mana to cast it, and action, are too slim. There's the issue. I could run something like Wispmare, much easier to cast. But then you run into the multiple Leyline problem. Or the they still have Chalice problem, because you can't get started through it. And you've devoted the same amount of slots to the problem, diluting your deck just as much. I don't believe that the latter is a better option. Though it does give at least the possibility to play through Chalice, I don't believe the odds of winning there are significantly better.

And for at least the third time; I bring in only Force vs. DnT. I haven't come anywhere close to losing to that deck since this change. It's incredibly easy to either put enough on board to win before their hate, or just counter their hate and do as you please. The White Stompy decks running the full 4 RiP have been almost as easy. I think I've dropped one game.

That makes sense. If the meta calls for it then I can definitely see needing Serenity. As it stands my current meta only involves a couple if not just 1 competitive deck that actually plays Leyline of the Void. I do, however, see chalice more often but generally speaking there are still some ways to get around that effect whether it be via Cephalid Coliseum, Breakthrough, Street Wraith, and/or still being able to cabal therapy. It is not ideal of course, but at least I don't flat out lose the game like I would against a free Leyline.

Maybe against decks packing Leyline/Chalice there can be a world where we still board in FOW but perhaps bring in additional blue cards that are still able to aid against both these cards I'm thinking something like Echoing Truth. This doesn't destroy their permanents though so I'm not sure how effective it would be.

As for your analysis regarding Serenity I completely agree I'm never going to throw a hand away that can kill my opponent on turn 1 just because it doesn't have my anti hate in it. I still like my odds of winning because assuming they don't have that 1 piece of interaction they will probably just lose the game in the same fashion they did game 1. If they do drop a hate piece then I will start to dig for an answer with Careful Study, Faithless Looting, Breakthrough, Cephalid Coliseum, the idea being that on the road to finding your anti hate piece you're also picking up more gas that will allow you to recover quickly after you've dispatched their hate. That or they drop another hate piece and then I just scoop lol.

EDIT: Also it sounds like you don't feel appreciated in this thread and or that you don't get the recognition you deserve? I mean if people really care about the archetype and are actually trying to learn from the best then there is no way they don't come accross something of yours so idk; maybe they don't know Parcher = Whitby. What I'm getting at is that you don't need validation from us really. Obviously the results speak for themselves. I did give you a shout out on the Legacy allure thing though that was cut out. xD

[Parcher]

Maybe against decks packing Leyline/Chalice there can be a world where we still board in FOW but perhaps bring in additional blue cards that are still able to aid against both these cards I'm thinking something like Echoing Truth. This doesn't destroy their permanents though so I'm not sure how effective it would be.

Tried it. It's too many slots to SB to begin with. And all of the options are less effective than Serenity. Especially when they have two different things you want to remove.


EDIT: Also it sounds like you don't feel appreciated in this thread and or that you don't get the recognition you deserve? I mean if people really care about the archetype and are actually trying to learn from the best then there is no way they don't come accross something of yours so idk; maybe they don't know Parcher = Whitby. What I'm getting at is that you don't need validation from us really. Obviously the results speak for themselves. I did give you a shout out on the Legacy allure thing though that was cut out. xD

Who cares about recognition or appreciation? I just hate repeating myself. That's why I post what changes I make, and why, once I've tested them. I'd rather people have more successes with this deck than conceal information for my potential benefit. And I don't want to leave people's legitimate questions unanswered. But I hate posting something in detail once, and then once people see the results elsewhere, they start lining up questions about the same stuff I posted months ago.


EDIT: I am still considering going to a 1-mana solution to Leyline. Possibly Wispmare, since I agree that there are many ways to get around Chalice. But testing hasn't proven to me that the mana cost of Serenity makes it worse. Its mostly that I can't rationalize running more than 4 slots for Leyline, and have been unable effectively draw those answers. I won't run something like Claim, since if they do have Leyline and Chalice you cannot win. Wear/Tear is more likely. Since you can either have two of them, or have the 3 mana to get rid of both. Or just get one or the other in those cases.

[Que]

Tried it. It's too many slots to SB to begin with. And all of the options are less effective than Serenity. Especially when they have two different things you want to remove.

Thats fair. Its like you mentioned you're only really bringing in Serenity against Leyline/Chalice decks. And these decks are usually not packing permission.



And I don't want to leave people's legitimate questions unanswered. But I hate posting something in detail once, and then once people see the results elsewhere, they start lining up questions about the same stuff I posted months ago.

Haha well yeah that is true I lost count as to the number of times I've repeated myself in this thread and/or just quoted myself in reply to a posed question. I don't think that will ever really go away as we usually have new dredge pilots coming in the thread as not everyone reads the entire thread. I myself have done it too; honest mistake I swear!! lol.

But all in all I normally let the other members fill them in or refer them to the 1st page, unless of course I have some piece of information that may be specific to their case.

[AsteroidBlues]

In a land's heavy meta, what do you guys think about including Realm Razer in the Sideboard?

I struggle against The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and I can't decide whether Realm Razer is a possible solution, or rather just going all in on the Ichorid beatdown.

[Parcher]

In a land's heavy meta, what do you guys think about including Realm Razer in the Sideboard?

I struggle against The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and I can't decide whether Realm Razer is a possible solution, or rather just going all in on the Ichorid beatdown.


Iona would be my third choice, so you're on the right track. Griz makes it unnecessary vs stuff like Storm though. And it doesn't do enough vs colorless stuff. Lands, Bridge, Platinum, etc. It does blow out Miracles and DnT. Unless they hit Karakas. But if it's early enough they probably can't Karakas AND RiP the same turn. Again, the inability to discard or destroy lands is the main reason. Terastodon is a close second. But I've had them have Exploration and/or Mox hands where they can Loam back Chasm and fight their way back. Also on the rare occasion you need to remove a creature. Not only can't the Don do it, you don't lose Bridges from Rider removing one.



The only reason I run a Rider as a target is for Lands/Post. Since lands are the only thing I have no other way to interact with. Maze+Tabernacle is a big problem, and Chasm is unbeatable if they have anything to back it up. Even the FStorm hail mary doesn't work since Stage was printed. Having only one of each is rarely a problem, since you have to pick your spot and go all-in against these decks anyway. If one of the two ends up in the last few cards, and they have an unbeatable board state without me hitting Rider, it's a trade-off I'm fine with. Not worth losing more slots for such fringe decks anyway.

I bring Rider in against Show for obvious reasons, and against Miracles when I'm not running additional discard in the SB. That's it. Though there are a few more attrition-focused matchups where I will bring in the DR solo.


I guess I'll field this one. I run Griz mainly just to act as a far, far better Sphinx of Lost Truths. It's for any match where I just need to combo as quickly as possible. His stats are just a bonus. His secondary use is against some decks like Miracles. Where they might threaten Terminus and you want to use his ability to just draw and refill your hand in case they can follow up the sweeper with GY hate. Technically, you can also do some absurd, win-more stuff with Firestorm. I've had six+ zombies trapped under an Ensnaring Bridge vs Painter. Dread Griz, draw 14(up to 19), play a second land, Firestorm for 8, in response Firestorm for 8.

Rider is primarily there for Lands. They have so many different ways to mess with us that we can't interact with that Rider just blows through. They can have both Tabernacle and Chasm set up, and you can remove Chasm, and even let Tabernacle remove itself during your next upkeep. And since it exiles, they can't get either of those singletons back. It's also there for decks where you might not worry about direct hate, but need to deal with other permanents. Painter for instance might have only 1 RiP and 1 Crypt, which you might deal with, and then they drop Bridge. Rider is great against Sneak for obvious reasons. But they sometimes run Leyline of Sanctity. Your plan is to rip apart their hand to stop their combo primarily. So you can Show in Rider, or you can go off, Rider away their Leyline, and rip their hand apart. It's also immune to Karakas vs Miracles or DnT. I often use it vs Miracles just to hit lands. To guarantee they can't Terminus, or play RiP. It's also the safest target vs. Reanimator since you don't care about them getting it much. The life loss from Reanimate hurts them far more than a 5/5 hurts you, and the exile trigger is poor. He only comes in about 5-6 matchups. But if you Griselbrand into Rider by turn two, there is no realistic combination of cards any deck could put together to beat that.

[AsteroidBlues]

Thanks for this! I know you hate repeating yourself, but this was super helpful

[Vandalize]

If Leyline of the Void is the problem, Chain of Vapor is really good against it. Castable off every single land this deck runs. Still, you might need to make your next turn play count. Wear/Tear is a great catch-all solution, as well.

But I don't see those cards being played that often. 90% of the hate I face are Deathrite Shaman, Surgical Extraction and Rest in Peace. I guess these are too diverse to have a catch-all answer. I focus mainly on beating Deathrite Shaman and Rest in Peace, because a single Surgical Extraction is manageable if your opponent doesn't know what he's targeting.

I've been toying with this sideboard for a while, Ashen Ghouls have saved my sorry ass against Surgical Extraction decks.

Deck:
4 Mana Confluence
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
2 City of Brass
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
3 Putrid Imp
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Dread Return

Sideboard:
3 Lotus Petal
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Serenity
2 Nature's Claim
2 Ashen Ghoul
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Dread Return
1 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

I've benched the Firestorms for a while. I can't draw them if I don't run 4. Variance is a bitch. Still, I haven't lost to Deathrite Shaman on the play for as long as I can remember. On the draw, things get a little trickier.

[Chronatog]

In a land's heavy meta, what do you guys think about including Realm Razer in the Sideboard?
I struggle against The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and I can't decide whether Realm Razer is a possible solution, or rather just going all in on the Ichorid beatdown.

Have you considered Flayer of the Hatebound?

[AsteroidBlues]

Have you considered Flayer of the Hatebound?

Totally. Im leaning more towards Flayer because it can get around the Maze's.

[Ronald Deuce]

Totally. Im leaning more towards Flayer because it can get around the Maze's.

I still feel like Ashen Rider's the go-to for this stuff. Flayer necessitates multiple Dread Returns, which is fine if you're running a bunch, but isn't so good if you're only on 1-2 in total.

Ichorid beats are surprisingly good, especially if you're running a full quad. It took me a long time to come around to moving FKZ to the sideboard, but I haven't missed it in the maindeck. There aren't that many decks we need to T1, and even if we feel that need, we don't need as many Dread Returns to use the FKZ as we do to use Flayer.

The principal strength I've noticed with Dread Return is that we can get zombies from it even if it gets countered. The payload matters surprisingly little unless there's a specific threat/set of threats we need to answer or the game's really come down to the wire. Running several Dread Returns doesn't have as great an impact as you'd think unless you're on the slow-dredging plan, which most people with more experience than I have don't recommend (N.B.: I've still found slow-dredging to be workable against Chalices, though I haven't practiced it as much as I'd like to).

[EDIT: Is Maze really that big a problem? We shouldn't have trouble against something that only stops one attacker. Chasm might be a bit of a doozy, but that's something Rider can solve, too.]

[SHABOOGS]

I have a main deck Flayer and have played against Lands quite a few times and it doesn't help the match up at all. Maze of Ith isn't a problem since we can overrun them with zombies. For me, once they tutor for Glacial Chasm and they can recycle it with Life from the Loam, it's off to sideboarding. That's the most problematic card in my opinion. Next to Chasm would have to be Tabernacle. I agree that Ashen Rider is one of the better ways to improve our chances against Lands but it is still a very unfavorable match up based on experience.

[slave]

I have a main deck Flayer and have played against Lands quite a few times and it doesn't help the match up at all. Maze of Ith isn't a problem since we can overrun them with zombies. For me, once they tutor for Glacial Chasm and they can recycle it with Life from the Loam, it's off to sideboarding. That's the most problematic card in my opinion. Next to Chasm would have to be Tabernacle. I agree that Ashen Rider is one of the better ways to improve our chances against Lands but it is still a very unfavorable match up based on experience.
I've not faced Lands very often, so I'm not the best guy to suggest how to beat them. Your experience above is how I think about the deck too.

I like Flayer as alt-win, but I think Ashen Rider is generally a better use of space in the sideboard considering how adaptable it can be. I haven't run Flayer for a while in LED-dredge, but I maindeck it in Manaless Dredge.

And another night at the local. Went with the Force-Vapor-Serenity side, 13 Lands, 2 Prized Amalgam main.
I dropped Firestorm as I hadn't seen many tribal opponents for a while, and BAM! game one I cop Elves. (sigh)
Side = 4 Serenity, 4 Force of Will, 2 Chain of Vapor, 2 Lotus Petal, 1 Dread Return (1 in the main), 1 Ashen Rider, 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Went 4-0 with a bye. 2-1 in all games, except Grixis, which was 2-0. Mono-G Elves, TES-Storm, Bw-Pox & Grixis.
Opponents were light-on for hate, apart from Pox with LotV, otherwise everyone else was on Surgical Extraction.
Pox was surprisingly tough for some reason, serenity saved me. DR & Iona made a mess of Elves. Therapy killed TES.

Overall I liked Serenity a lot when I played it, I brought it in more than I used Force.
Force didn't make a difference for the times I brought it in this time around, which was only against TES.
The more I think about Serenity and Force in the same sideboard, the more I'm favouring Force against stuff that nuke the yard or race us, whereas I'm favouring Serenity against Grafdigger, LotV, Chalice/Jitte type opponents.

What's your thoughts Parcher? (or anyone else who uses Serenity)
Do you find Serenity is more a catch-all than Force, with Force getting the gig against decks that can just race us or do things we can't really answer? (eg Reanimator, Storm, Rest in Peace etc.)

[Parcher]

What's your thoughts Parcher? (or anyone else who uses Serenity)
Do you find Serenity is more a catch-all than Force, with Force getting the gig against decks that can just race us or do things we can't really answer? (eg Reanimator, Storm, Rest in Peace etc.)



That said, I ONLY bring in the Serenities vs Leyline/Chalice decks. Or random outliers like MUD. 14 mana sources is enough to reliably cast them. The issue is that it's not enough to mull to them. That is to say, I don't believe it's worth it to mull a hand that is likely to win if they don't have Leyline, to try and find an answer to Leyline. The odds of hitting the Serenity, the mana to cast it, and action, are too slim. There's the issue. I could run something like Wispmare, much easier to cast. But then you run into the multiple Leyline problem. Or the they still have Chalice problem, because you can't get started through it. And you've devoted the same amount of slots to the problem, diluting your deck just as much. I don't believe that the latter is a better option. Though it does give at least the possibility to play through Chalice, I don't believe the odds of winning there are significantly better.

And for at least the third time; I bring in only Force vs. DnT. I haven't come anywhere close to losing to that deck since this change. It's incredibly easy to either put enough on board to win before their hate, or just counter their hate and do as you please. The White Stompy decks running the full 4 RiP have been almost as easy. I think I've dropped one game.

[Que]

for what its worth I still don't believe 14 mana sources are enough for anything CMC 2. I say that because the plan of bringing in Serenity against Chalice decks doesn't seem viable when these decks play prison type cards whether they be Wasteland, Thorn, Trinisphere. I think it being sorcery speed also hurts it since your resources will be under attack the whole time and you can't just hold onto Serenity. Obviously in my build I have to run Lotus Petals for Decay which alleviates this problem somewhat. Maybe its just my own experiences. *shrugs.

[Ronald Deuce]

for what its worth I still don't believe 14 mana sources are enough for anything CMC 2. I say that because the plan of bringing in Serenity against Chalice decks doesn't seem viable when these decks play prison type cards whether they be Wasteland, Thorn, Trinisphere. I think it being sorcery speed also hurts it since your resources will be under attack the whole time and you can't just hold onto Serenity. Obviously in my build I have to run Lotus Petals for Decay which alleviates this problem somewhat. Maybe its just my own experiences. *shrugs.

I'm no expert, but I think you're right about needing more than 14. I actually cut Decay because I'd been running two Petals (and 12 lands) and I still couldn't fire it. Obviously Decay's a taller order than Serenity (double colored mana, neither of which is attainable using Coliseum), but I just felt like I had to jam so much extra mana into the deck to make it work that it wasn't worth it.

[jimmythegreek]

Talking in the third person makes one look like a total dick, no matter how appropriate. @Parcher

[SHABOOGS]

I've seen Vintage Dredge lists use Riftstone Portal and Serenity to fight hate. Might be worth something to look at since they have around the same number of rainbow lands. Think of Coliseum producing G/W like Bazaar does in Vintage. Portal obv doesn't work against Leyline and RIP but it works against everything else (I think).

[Ronald Deuce]

I've seen Vintage Dredge lists use Riftstone Portal and Serenity to fight hate. Might be worth something to look at since they have around the same number of rainbow lands. Think of Coliseum producing G/W like Bazaar does in Vintage. Portal obv doesn't work against Leyline and RIP but it works against everything else (I think).

I think that if we're willing to run 13+ lands, that sounds reasonable, though I haven't tested it. (It's worth pointing out that Riftstone pays for the in-hand cost and the flashback cost of Ray of Revelation and that it facilitates Abrupt Decay.) I just have trouble with the idea that we should up our land count beyond 13, and I don't like running even that many. Too many things I want in quads, and adding lands is adding cards that don't do anything once we dredge them out.

I'll defer to other people's Judgment (LOLOLOLO!), but I don't really feel interested in running it.

[slave]

If it's our only land in hand we have to mulligan. Riftstone Portal doesn't do enough for me.
I tested this card a while back (competitively) and whilst it wasn't completely bad, I think it's in the same category as Dakmor Salvage, as it's a card that could be useful given it's niche use comes up, but otherwise it's average at best.
FWIW, I tested Dakmor a lot more than Riftstone, as I was running Abrupt Decay in the side at the time.

[Ronald Deuce]

If it's our only land in hand we have to mulligan.

Yeah, but that's assuming we're putting in Riftstone in place of a different land. I don't think it'd be worth it to cut a rainbow-land for Riftstone. We need to mulligan a lot of hands anyway, so I feel like the bigger problem is that it would be taking up slots in which we'd rather have a fourth Thug, a redundant Looter, or some sideboard card. Assuming we're keeping the standard 12 lands (quad Coliseum and a mix of Cities, Confluences, and Mines), Riftstone is competing with nonlands.

[slave]

Agreed. And given we're playing with rainbows to start with, it's not really adding much.
I mean Undiscovered Paradise is a better T1 choice than Riftstone, and no one talks about the card.

[Chronatog]

Agreed. And given we're playing with rainbows to start with, it's not really adding much.
I mean Undiscovered Paradise is a better T1 choice than Riftstone, and no one talks about the card.

Undiscovered Paradise works well together with Bloodghast. Bloodghast also works well with Petrified Field. And Petrified Field is must have to rescue wasted/stripped Bazaar of Baghdad. So, perhaps, Undiscovered Paradise is better in Vintage than in Legacy.

And in Legacy, other than triggering Bloodghast, Undiscovered Paradise can be potentially useful if you already have it in play and want to have more cards in hand to go to discard sooner. But I don't think such situations are often.

I personally wouldn't use Undiscovered Paradise without Bloodghast and this would be very different build (and, perhaps Dakmor Salvage would be another land to include into this build). I may be wrong, though.

[Que]

I personally wouldn't use Undiscovered Paradise without Bloodghast and this would be very different build (and, perhaps Dakmor Salvage would be another land to include into this build). I may be wrong, though.

Nah thats about right. Here is what that looks like:

http://tcdecks.net/results.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=&nhigh=&from=&to=&player=jason+bulkowski&aname=&dname=&format=Legacy+Archive&main=&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on

[SHABOOGS]

@Que: Congrats on another Top 8 (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13694&d=280676&f=LE)! Looks like you also had success with the FOW sideboard plan that Parcher started. Any scenarios in that tournament where FOW shined?

[Que]

@Que: Congrats on another Top 8 (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13694&d=280676&f=LE)! Looks like you also had success with the FOW sideboard plan that Parcher started. Any scenarios in that tournament where FOW shined?

Thanks bruh.

This was the first time trying FOW in the board. As such I had to cut the Petals to make space, but by doing so I knew I would weaken my ability to cast Abrupt Decay so I cut it too; that and I still wanted to find an out to Chalice/Leyline of the void. This is the reason I brought Wear/Tear to the tournament, but I did not run into any Eldrazi that day so they went unused. The inclusion of Chain of Vapor was to increase my total blue count to 20 along with also being a soft out to Leyline. I figured I would be boarding in 4x FOW alongside 2x Chain in certain matchups. The remainder of the board is a Dread Return package.

I brought in FOW against Grixis Delver Round 1 game 2 to try it out (I'm not saying this is correct). I FOW'd his turn 1 DRS and he was taken a back. He paused for a moment and then Forced back. I believe he then dazed my 1st spell and wasted my land couple turns after. I couldn't really get off the ground this game anyway. I think it was fine to bring in, but he just had a lot more disruption to go along with the DRS.

I didn't get a chance to play DnT to try them. According to Parcher he hasn't lost to DnT since hes made the change over to FOW. I'm hoping to have similar results as I don't enjoy that matchup too much. xD

It was great against ANT. He had the kill in his hand, but couldn't go for it after probing me and seeing that I had the FOW for the Ad Naseum he was about to cast. He lets me know that he shuffled away Duress in favor of the kill since he wasn't expecting any permission. I dredge into some goodies and strip the ad naseum and some other cards out of his hand via cabal therapy and seal the match.

Additional thoughts:
I think there are also some mind game benefits. If they see it game 2 it gives them something to think about game 3 even if you just decide to board them back out in favor of a more explosive game on the play. I will probably continue to give them a whirl to see how effective they are over the course of a few tournaments.

[lagueur]

Hi everyone,

Long time viewer here to gather information to help me play the legacy and the deck I love more in legacy: Dredge, but never post something.

I'll start by presenting myself: I'm an old magic player. I started when i was young with unslaught and ended with timespiral. A friend get me back in magic 8 month ago. I started with modern, witch is 'nice' but I think legacy is more interesting.
I'm french but I live in malta. Here nobody play legacy, just me and my friend :cry:

Here is my deck list:
Deck:

13 lands

4 Mana Confluence
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 City of Brass


22 Creatures

4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
2 Prized amalgam
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria


25 Spells

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Dread Return


Sideboard:

3 Lotus Petal
3 Nature's Claim
3 Firestorm
2 Chain of vapor
1 Elesh norn
1 Ashen rider
1 Memory's journey
1 Ancient grudge

I went to my first tournament in Paris : eternal weekend (https://www.bazaar-of-moxen.com/en/news,31.html?event=23&evt=23) and I went to the feature table playing dredge.
You could find the video here : https://www.twitch.tv/bazaar_of_moxen/v/96437952
I started at 1:25:00, at 1:39:00 (the friend that put me back in legacy. We went at the feature match at the same time \o/)
1:46:00 Me again.

I really sorry for the bad play on this video. I was stressed, I kept hand I shouldn't have kept and I was not lucky on my dredge. It was the less interesting match I had this day (And of course it's the one on twitch :frown:).
I've done a lot of mistakes. Like, on this video, on game 3, I keep Iona instead of Ashen rider, that cost me the game.

I really enjoyed playing this tournament with dredge. I ended with 5 win and 4 loss for a rank of 101/294. I could have been better without some misplay, but now more than ever I wanted to master this deck and do others tournament.

So I'll post here time to time to ask for some help or give you report on tests and play I could do with dredge. If you want a full report on this tournament ask and I'll make one.

Like Parcher said on a previous post, there were no permanent hate but everyone has surgical extraction. (Just 1 player had side a unique gravedigger's cage and he never draw it). So every game2 my sideboard slow me more than it help me.

I'm thinking about changing my sideboard to:


4 Force of will
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Chain of vapor
2 Prized amalgam
1 Elesh norn
1 Ashen rider
1 Memory's journey
1 Ancient grudge

A 'fearless' version where I just have chain of vapor for a game 3 in case of some leyline (But with no help other than cabal and FOW for something like RIP).

With a sideboard like this I'm thinking doing something like : I remove 2 ichorid to get 2 prized in that could be used for fow and also probe to replace breakthrough, and FOW replacing led. For example against storm (OTD).

What do you think about probe to help dredging, cabal and be used for FOW ?

Did someone also try something like:
4 Dark Depths
1 Riftstone Portal
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Vampire Hexmage
To absolutely change the deck game 2 ?

[Parcher]

4 Force of will
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Chain of vapor
2 Prized amalgam
1 Elesh norn
1 Ashen rider
1 Memory's journey
1 Ancient grudge

A 'fearless' version where I just have chain of vapor for a game 3 in case of some leyline (But with no help other than cabal and FOW for something like RIP).

With a sideboard like this I'm thinking doing something like : I remove 2 ichorid to get 2 prized in that could be used for fow and also probe to replace breakthrough, and FOW replacing led. For example against storm (OTD).

What do you think about probe to help dredging, cabal and be used for FOW ?

I don't like Probe for one main reason. By itself, it does nothing the deck needs. Blue count for Force is irrelevant. You could use anything for that, and should not need to board in more U to make FoW viable. Brainstorm is infinitely better at drawing cards. And it doesn't even draw cards that Dredge wants without a discard outlet. Even Wraith is better for that, since it's uncounterable, and feeds Ichorid. For a new player, I can see the appeal of the peek. But it's not needed once you learn your matchups. You

For a SB vs Extraction, I prefer Unmask. Adding more Amalgams doesn't do much. They already require an activation, which Extraction can stop. And if an issue, they can still hit the Amalgams. And a one-of Journey rarely gets there. The odds of it showing when you need it, can cast it, and they can't stop it, are too slim. Unmask is obviously good at stopping Extraction before it has use. Especially in conjunction with Therapy. But since most of those decks also have countermagic, I've found Unmask also shines when they play protect the queen. That is, when you cast discard, they counter it to save their Extraction, and you Breakthrough, allow their Extraction to resolve(it has to be on Narcomoeba or occasionally Bridge), and dredge enough to smash them anyway.

And running two Chain is pointless. The odds of you getting it in a keepable hand, when your opponent has Leyline, just one, and doesn't have Chalice, are miniscule.

[lagueur]

Thank you Parcher, it's really helpful.

I have some comments below to explain my ideas behind this sideboard:


You could use anything for that, and should not need to board in more U to make FoW viable.
For now I didn't test dredge with FOW, and I'm thinking there is not so much blue, and If I have I may want use it to draw and discard instead of a FOW. But I didn't test it yet to make my opinion.



For a new player, I can see the appeal of the peek. But it's not needed once you learn your matchups.
Yes that a main reason for me thinking using probe instead of wraith. For me it's not really for the draw but more to reveal my opponent hand without paying mana (and maybe used it for fow).
I still don't know well the meta and there is a lot of decks I never saw. On game 1, I always says brainstorm to have a chance to hit something and see his hand. Like this he can't hide things for the second cabal that usually come right after :wink:.
I was thinking about probe also because before playing anything it could give me advice on his potential hate (on game 2) and give me clues if I could dredge like hell or if on my first turn I should cabal to get rid of a hate card and then start dredging on turn 2. In this case the 'free' draw is more to not loose a card than dredging (like wraith could make me more efficiently).



For a SB vs Extraction, I prefer Unmask.

Unmask is obviously good at stopping Extraction before it has use. Especially in conjunction with Therapy. But since most of those decks also have countermagic, I've found Unmask also shines when they play protect the queen. That is, when you cast discard, they counter it to save their Extraction, and you Breakthrough, allow their Extraction to resolve(it has to be on Narcomoeba or occasionally Bridge), and dredge enough to smash them anyway.
Unmask will work also see my opponent hands (and discard at the same time), but same as FOW, I'm still afraid to not have a black card I want to get rid of in my hand and I finish with a dead card. I assumed it's because It's a common fear for beginner (If I remember well, long time ago FoW was not used because of that).

Against surgical I really like memory's journey because it could stop the extraction, save my bridge or help me to removed some card from opponent's graveyard. So it's never a dead card.



Adding more Amalgams doesn't do much. They already require an activation, which Extraction can stop. And if an issue, they can still hit the Amalgams. And a one-of Journey rarely gets there. The odds of it showing when you need it, can cast it, and they can't stop it, are too slim.
Make sense.



And running two Chain is pointless. The odds of you getting it in a keepable hand, when your opponent has Leyline, just one, and doesn't have Chalice, are miniscule.
Make sense also but for me it was more to still have an answer in the deck for a T0 leyline even if I had to used all my draw spell to get it instead of concede without event trying.


Again, thanks for these comments. I think I'll try something like this:
4 Force of will
3 nature's claim
2 Unmask
1 Elesh norn
1 Ashen rider
2 Memory's journey
2 Ancient grudge


Did you also have an opinion on the Marit Lage combo sideboard ?

[Parcher]

For now I didn't test dredge with FOW, and I'm thinking there is not so much blue, and If I have I may want use it to draw and discard instead of a FOW. But I didn't test it yet to make my opinion.

This is true, but adding more cards you don't want to facilitate FoW is bad as well. You may have hands where your only draw spell is needed for FoW. In those cases, you have to evaluate whether the hate you expect is worth saving the ability to Force. And, whether it's a match where you can lose the turn or two by waiting.



Yes that a main reason for me thinking using probe instead of wraith. For me it's not really for the draw but more to reveal my opponent hand without paying mana (and maybe used it for fow).
I still don't know well the meta and there is a lot of decks I never saw. On game 1, I always says brainstorm to have a chance to hit something and see his hand. Like this he can't hide things for the second cabal that usually come right after :wink:.
I was thinking about probe also because before playing anything it could give me advice on his potential hate (on game 2) and give me clues if I could dredge like hell or if on my first turn I should cabal to get rid of a hate card and then start dredging on turn 2. In this case the 'free' draw is more to not loose a card than dredging (like wraith could make me more efficiently).

Unmask will work also see my opponent hands (and discard at the same time), but same as FOW, I'm still afraid to not have a black card I want to get rid of in my hand and I finish with a dead card. I assumed it's because It's a common fear for beginner (If I remember well, long time ago FoW was not used because of that).

Right. Unmask is simply more of what we want in a single card. Seeing their hand is not terribly important if you have nothing to affect it. And remember, in a pinch, Unmask can act as a manaless discard outlet for you. Pitching seems bad, since unlike for FoW, we always "want" the Black card. But also unlike FoW, we have tons of redundancy in all the Black cards but Bridge. But I've found that losing one Bridge, when you are guaranteeing that you can go off, is usually irrelelvant.



Against surgical I really like memory's journey because it could stop the extraction, save my bridge or help me to removed some card from opponent's graveyard. So it's never a dead card.

I disagree. It's dead if they don't have extraction. It's dead if you have no mana. It's dead if they use Extraction before you find one. I ran it when it had additional use against Storm and Reanimator. With FoW and Unmask in the SB now, the need for such has been greatly reduced.



Make sense also but for me it was more to still have an answer in the deck for a T0 leyline even if I had to used all my draw spell to get it instead of concede without event trying.

Remember you complaining about boarding in dead cards? You're doing the same thing here. In addition to the other qualifications I mentioned above, remember that you also can search and search and find Chain, only to die anyway. Since you've expended so many resources to just try and get a 2-of to remove Leyline. And unlike Cage, Leyline undoes all the work you did to find an answer as you discard.



Did you also have an opinion on the Marit Lage combo sideboard ?

No. I don't like transformational sideboards. I like them less in Dredge. And I think in that one, running less than 4 Hexmage seems wrong.

[slave]

I tried to make the Dark Depths sideboard work here in Dredge - it's not where I wanna be, felt awful without running a deck dedicated to the combo.


So far, I don't see any C16 cards that are a consideration for us.
Chain of Vapor getting a reprint and new art doesn't count.

[gibbousm]

I'm curious to try out the FoW sideboard plan my next tournament.

Right now main deck is 3 Ichorids, 2 Amalgams, 2 Putrid Imps, 3 Breakthrough, 1 DR, 1 Iona, 12 lands.
Given the decline in Combo due to Miracles and Eldrazi I can probably move Iona to the Sideboard and add the 13th land to the Main.

That gives me:
4 Force of Will
2 Unmask
1 Dread Return
1 Iona
1 Elesh Norn
1 Ashen Rider
5 Others (probably more anti-hate or Firestorms)

People who have been testing out FoW such as Parcher and Que what conclusions have you made about the Pitchboard? What match ups do you bring them in for/leave them out? I've read through your older postings about the plan, but want to know if anything has changed with further testing.

[Que]

I'm curious to try out the FoW sideboard plan my next tournament.

Right now main deck is 3 Ichorids, 2 Amalgams, 2 Putrid Imps, 3 Breakthrough, 1 DR, 1 Iona, 12 lands.
Given the decline in Combo due to Miracles and Eldrazi I can probably move Iona to the Sideboard and add the 13th land to the Main.

That gives me:
4 Force of Will
2 Unmask
1 Dread Return
1 Iona
1 Elesh Norn
1 Ashen Rider
5 Others (probably more anti-hate or Firestorms)

People who have been testing out FoW such as Parcher and Que what conclusions have you made about the Pitchboard? What match ups do you bring them in for/leave them out? I've read through your older postings about the plan, but want to know if anything has changed with further testing.

I might try them again. I don't think they've particularly shined in any matchup, but thats because I'm not seeing it usually. I tend to keep postboard hands that have most of the elements if not all that I want (Dredgers, Draw Spell, and land) regardless of whether I see a FOW. So after turn 1 there is a chance I'm just dredging them away. Such is the case for other sb cards we usually bring in. One thing I have noticed about cards like Firestorm, Lotus Petal, FOW, and Unsmask etc.. is that they become way worse the more we have to mulligan. We can't really mulligan down to say 5 cards and still have enough gas to Firestorm, FOW, or unmask anyone effectively as you're already down a good number of resources.

The fact that we're mentioning combo is on the decline might be a reason to not include FOW. One of the reasons you would run this card is to give you something against faster combo like Ad Naseum, Belcher, Reanimator, Omni, but if those decks aren't being played or do not represent a majority of the current metagame then it would make sense to shore up the more traditional matchups like Miracles, Grixis & 4C delver, Shardless BUG, as well as other matchups like Eldrazi, Infect,. I did particularly enjoy casting Wear/Tear as I was able to destroy a Chalice on 1 and a Leyline of the Void game 2 in one of my most recent tournaments. I'm convinced Nature's claim is not the answer to a prison like meta. at least in my meta as I've also had to play against Lands and MUD on top of Eldrazi. And I don't want FOW in either of those matchups.

[contra]

I've been playing LED Dredge for the last 5 years, but this is my first post in this thread. I've playtested force of will out of the side, but I was very unimpressed. I've since gone back to my standard build. My sideboard is catered to fighting three modes of hate: surgical w/ additional ichorid, amalgrams, and memories journey; enchantments/artifacts w/ ancient grudge and serenity; and combo decks ala fearless dredge w/ additional breakthrough, winds of change (breakthrough 5&6), iona, and lotus petal for explosive hands.

against eldrazi I side in serenity, lotus petals, and breakthrough while taking out imps, 1 land, 1 cabal, 1 ichorid, and 1 golgari thug and tend to have a 50/50 shot of winning even w/ a leyline and chalice.



4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
2 Putrid Imp

1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Ichorid
1 Breakthrough
2 Prized Amalgam
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Memory's Journey
3 Serenity
2 Lotus Petal
2 Winds of Change

[Que]

I've been playing LED Dredge for the last 5 years, but this is my first post in this thread. I've playtested force of will out of the side, but I was very unimpressed. I've since gone back to my standard build. My sideboard is catered to fighting three modes of hate: surgical w/ additional ichorid, amalgrams, and memories journey; enchantments/artifacts w/ ancient grudge and serenity; and combo decks ala fearless dredge w/ additional breakthrough, winds of change (breakthrough 5&6), iona, and lotus petal for explosive hands.

against eldrazi I side in serenity, lotus petals, and breakthrough while taking out imps, 1 land, 1 cabal, 1 ichorid, and 1 golgari thug and tend to have a 50/50 shot of winning even w/ a leyline and chalice.



4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
2 Putrid Imp

1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Ichorid
1 Breakthrough
2 Prized Amalgam
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Memory's Journey
3 Serenity
2 Lotus Petal
2 Winds of Change


This list seems fine. The only knock I would have against it is the fact that you're only running three Cabal Therapy which I think is wrong. Perhaps plop the last one in the SB because against other combo decks you're going to want them. I think you can afford to cut a winds of change. Sure more of the same type of effects are great, but in all honesty what are you taking out to bring in 2x Lotus Petal, 1x Iona, 1x Breakthrough, 2x Winds of Change. My guess would be something like -2 Putrid Imp, -1 Thug, -1 Ichorid, and -2 Careful Study?? O.o Winds of Change and Breakthrough are only good when paired with LED on Turn 1 otherwise they will almost always exclusively be played on Turn 2 after you've done your initial setup. If you do take out PIMPs which would make sense since they're a bit slower then I don't recommend cutting Careful Studies as those will be your only way to discard your dredgers outside of LED. I'm just making assumptions though.lol It still seems like a reasonable list.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also shout out from NA to Borja Villada who is putting up results in Spain with one of the only successful LEDless lists I've personally seen:

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21536&iddeck=165192

[mistercakes]

played in a weekly on tuesday with lotus petal dredge. beat 4c delver twice, ant, and lost to an esper deck b/c of rest in peace twice.

list:

4 golgari grave-troll
4 stinkweed imp
4 golgari thug
4 careful study
4 faithless looting
4 breakthrough
4 lion's eye diamond
4 lotus petal
4 bridge from below
4 cabal therapy
4 narcomoeba
3 ichorid
2 dread return
1 flame-kin zealot
1 firestorm
1 mana confluence
4 gemstone mine
4 cephalid coliseum


sb:

1 darkblast
4 abrupt decay
3 mana confluence
1 iona
1 elesh norn
1 blazing archon
2 surgical extraction
2 unmask

blazing archon won a game vs grixis delver. would recommend more unmasks instead of abrupt decay or wear/tear. probably gemstome caverns over the mana confluences as well. it's likely not the best version of dredge, but i enjoy the turn 1 kills, and this version tends to do this the most. i like the maindeck firestorm (thanks to parcher for running that) and might even consider a 2nd.

-rob

[mistercakes]

played another weekly. 3-1. beat elves, grixis delver, grixis delver. lost to RB reanimator.

same maindeck.

sb different:

sb:

1 nature's claim
3 wear/tear
1 memory's journey
1 iona
1 elesh norn
1 blazing archon
1 firestorm
2 unmask
4 gemstone caverns

still not sure what to cut from sb. i think wear/tear will be cut to 2 and will run 1 more firestorm.

[mistercakes]

Saw someone went 5-0 with a very similar list except not running lotus petals main and running a griselbrand over the 4th thug. Have you tried the petals maindeck yet? If so what was the turnoff for you?

How was the griselbrand and was it better than thug?

Edit: it actually looks like - 1 firestorm +1 griselbrand and then - 1 thug for the 4th ichorid. I do feel like 4 ichorid s is probably best in a deck without putrid imp.

Also what we're your matchups?

[slave]

I prefer Unmask.
Obviously I've taken this out of context.

I've run Unmask on and off, over the last 5 years in every type of Dredge deck I've played, but only ever from the side.
.....And every time I've suggested or listed it here on Source or on Salvation for LED-Dredge, I've been criticized.

Typically, when I've run it, I've used 2 in the side, but I've not run it for a while now due to using FoW instead.
I think the popularity of Infect & D&T around me, and other non-brainstorm decks really does demand Unmask gets a little attention.

(Force of Will) I think there are also some mind game benefits.
That's been my experience too.

I've been playing LED Dredge for the last 5 years, but this is my first post in this thread. I've playtested force of will out of the side, but I was very unimpressed. I've since gone back to my standard build.
I've been considering going back to a more regular build also. I kinda feel that Force is only in my deck because of Chalice-taxing-types that stop Claims cold.
I want my anti-hate to work, even though the chances of drawing it in g2 and g3 are always going to be low, I don't want it to be a dead card all the same.

FWIW, I've been playing on/off with Force both from the side, and in the main, in some form of Dredge (both here and manaless) as a reaction to Grafdigger's Cage and Rest in Peace being printed back in 2012. When I've played Manaless I've almost exclusively played Manaless with FoW since then, but more recently in LED-Dredge. So yeah, you could say I've given the old blue a fair try.
I've not done any major tournaments like SCG Opens etc. for quite a few years, as my town doesn't have them and I'm some 3500km's+ from the closest city that does.

I'm not giving up on Force, but it seems to me that Force is one of the most marginal choices in my deck, given it demands so much in terms of deck construction even though the effect is marginal.

And yeah, I took my Blue LED-Dredge deck along last night (I've been playing other decks lately) and went 4-1.
Side: 2 Dread Return (1 main), 2 Iona, 4 FoW, 1 Prized Amalgam (1 main), 3 Firestorm, 3 Petals.
I beat UG-Infect 2-1, UW-Miracles 2-1, another UW-Miracles 2-0, UWg-Stoneblade 2-1
Lost to Aggro Eldrazi 0-2 (he locked me out early in both games)
Iona locking out opponents was the order of the day. Naming green vs Infect, blue vs blade, white vs Miracles won me a few games.
Leovold, Emissary of Trest made an appearance with Stoneblade. Prized Amalgam did a lot of heavy lifting in grindy games vs Miracles too.

[contra]

You're absolutely right - fitting FOW in LED dredge requires you to warp the deck too much, but it ports nicely into manaless especially with amalgram.

[Ronald Deuce]

I've actually had some success with 3x Force in the sideboard (just picked up a fourth today). With a quad-heavy list, I don't think it stresses the deck much to yank singletons (maybe 2x LED because it clashes). I might take the deck out for a spin at the local tomorrow.

It doesn't stop T0 Leyline, but there are a few big advantages I've noticed:
—Hands that otherwise look like an automatic mulligan to 6 or 5 sometimes get a lot better with a Force in them, especially when a pesky Narcomoeba is there and/or where speed isn't really a big concern. (N.B.: I can't say the same about Firestorm, which I've never run and haven't been tempted to do in months.)
—Answers any (ANY) hate-card except Extirpate or Bog.
—Sandbagging a Force will take people by surprise. It's won me games that way.

Not saying it's perfect, but I think it's great here.

[GoldenCid]

p
4 gemstone caverns



This looks at leat interesting.
What is the rationale over por example lotus petal?

[mistercakes]

this was something suggested by vieko, it's used in addition to lotus petal on the draw. i tend to play a 9 land + 4 petal list over the traditional 13 land list. this makes the deck a little more explosive and helps around daze, but you are in a bit of trouble if you want to cast sb cards or cabal therapy. i've had a lot of fun with this deck and have a generally positive record overall, even through decks with a lot of hate. (non leyline)

the rational for bringing in 4 is to just outrace slower forms of hate like rest in peace and containment priest.

i have been playing around with some sb's though in case cards like leyline and grafdiggers become popular. (hard to say as dredge and reanimator will never be tier 1)

has anyone tried negator sb's?

i was thinking something like

spells (30)

4 lion's eye diamond
4 lotus petal
4 faithless looting
4 careful study
4 bridge from below
4 cabal therapy
3 breakthrough
2 dread return

creatures (21)

4 narcomoeba
4 ichorid
4 golgari-grave troll
4 stinkweed imp
3 golgari thug
1 flame-kin zealot
1 griselbrand

lands (9)

4 cephalid coliseum
4 gemstone mine
2 mana confluence

-------
this list being what i normally play for the maindeck, although i usually run +1 thug, -1 griselbrand. -1 mana confluence + 1 breakthrough. -1 ichorid +1 firestorm. (trying this list out though as i saw the list that went 5-0 twice on mtggoldfish has 4 ichorid and a griselbrand, so i'm willing try that.)

i normally run a pretty safe sideboard (see my prior posts) but have been considering some transformative sideboards for fun. has anyone tried this approach?


sb (15)

4 unmask
4 dark ritual
4 phyrexian negator
3 gemstone caverns

sb cuts:
4 lion's eye diamond
2 faithless looting
3 breakthrough
2 dread return
1 golgari-grave troll
1 ichorid
1 flame-kin zealot
1 griselbrand

would you sb differently? (let's just play along and go with the negator plan)

i also had another version that was for fun with this sb, although it works a lot better because it already has 4 lotus petals in the maindeck.


4 doomsday
4 dark ritual
4 infernal tutor
1 shelldock isle
1 emrakul
1 unmask/chrome mox

-rob

[Oestrus]

Dredge finished 52nd at Grand Prix Chiba: http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpchi16/33rd-64th-decklists-2016-11-27

Some interesting choices - particularly the 2 main deck DR targets, and much of the SB. Undiscovered Paradise, Noxious Revival, and Pithing Needle.

Represent!

[Plaek]

Hey all,
been playing LED-Dredge quite irregularly for half a year now (still new to legacy) and usually with quite a generic list including 2 main DR+1 FKZ since it always felt the safest route for me. After this list from KMC-JPN really raised my interest http://mtgpulse.com/event/26371#347776 I've been trying it and now struggle to understand its purpose.

What would be the other reasons to play Flayer of the Hatebound than for example Ensnaring Bridge? It seems to be a bit slower than FKZ and possibly still needs another DR (of which the deck only has two). The list also has only 3 City of Brasses and one Undiscovered Paradise SB. What would be the reason to play Undisc. since I've understood that it was usually most beneficial to the lists that used Bloodghasts. Apparently Petals are to increase speed and evade Wastelands, but if you want speed for example against ANT or Burn, wouldn't FKZ be more reliable? Also wouldn't only 2 Golgari Thugs lower your consistency too much?

Greater Gargadon? Quite an unique choice. This seems to be intended to be suspended, since it's only one red mana and sometimes DR:ed against some decks probably, but when would you guys think the ability would be relevant? Against point-removal control decks?
I haven't tried Griselbrand myself, since I haven't really figured out when would I want it actually. I see the Griz in many lists and have read some comments that it's a win-more but are there any decks that we would want it against more than the other DR-targets?

Is this list inconsistent or cleverly meta-tweaked? What could be the secret of getting eighth in the tournament? Answers most appreciated! Still trying to learn the intricacies behind different Dredge builds and sideboardings. :)

[Ronald Deuce]

Hey all,
been playing LED-Dredge quite irregularly for half a year now (still new to legacy) and usually with quite a generic list including 2 main DR+1 FKZ since it always felt the safest route for me. After this list from KMC-JPN really raised my interest http://mtgpulse.com/event/26371#347776 I've been trying it and now struggle to understand its purpose. . . . Is this list inconsistent or cleverly meta-tweaked? What could be the secret of getting eighth in the tournament? Answers most appreciated! Still trying to learn the intricacies behind different Dredge builds and sideboardings. :)

Hey, Plaek!

Seems to me the main reason behind using Flayer is that you can shoot someone past Bridge/Blazing Archon, but I think there are other reasons, like that you can use it to avoid losing Bridges to combat on a clogged board. I don't think Flayer is that great (to KO, we need at least two—probably more—Dread Returns to pull it off with any consistency), but I think it might be a metagame call. Essential in Manaless, but not so great in this deck.

I think Gargadon is there to allow for instant-speed token generation, especially in the face of a number of problematic (though perhaps fringey) decks that can afford to throw away creatures to knock out Bridges. I guess it also makes it possible to get something more out of Ichorids if Bridges either get nuked or aren't forthcoming, though I don't know that it's worth it. Also makes a good last-ditch Dread Return target if the 'yard has been thoroughly burned out.

Feels like a build that leans rather strongly on Bridge, but maybe I'm wrong. I don't really understand the other choices you mentioned (Undiscovered Paradise to hedge against Back to Basics? No idea); only two Thugs seems really suboptimal, and I can't make sense of the land setup (or THREE PImps) [EDIT: The low land-count makes sense with the included Petals; I'm talking about the specific choices of which lands/how many of each kind]. Anyone with more play experience have any input on this one?

Regarding the player's getting eighth, all I can say is that oftentimes something unorthodox doesn't have to be great; it just has to take people by surprise and/or put them off balance. I've seen weird brews beat pretty good players just because they came out of nowhere.

Personally, I've come around to playing an FKZ-less mainboard with only one Dread Return for consistency's sake; more on that in a sec.

Went 2-1 today with my first Dredging at the local in several months. Had some hideous draws and dredges (lost to D&T because I just couldn't find anything in the top two-thirds of my deck), but got some interesting information out of the experience. My first opponent was the store's proprietor, who jumped in with Modern Dredge just because we couldn't make an even number, and he really dumped on me in game 1 by opening with Insolent Neonate to junk two Bridges. It's pretty fringey, but if you know a whole load of Dredge players in your meta, it seems like a possible sideboard card for a mirror-match.

Funnily enough, a friend had borrowed my deck a few days ago and hadn't unboarded it, so I was rolling in with double-Dread Return and FKZ in the maindeck. I had terrible problems with consistency all day. Ever since I'd switched over to 2x PAm, 1x Dread and G-Brand, I'd felt like things were going much more smoothly. I'd hoped to take that build out for its trial by fire today, and I'm feeling like today's tournament was a rather unscientific lesson in why I'd prefer that build to the all-in Zealot strategy.

I got to test quad-Force for the first time at a tournament. I liked it, and rather wish I'd used it more than I did. It won me a game against Shardless in which I kept a terrible hand. DDD'd a Troll on my first turn, Forced his Extraction, then just goldfished for the win.

[SHABOOGS]

I like Flayer over FKZ these days because FKZ relies on a lethal zombie army to win via multiple bridges and 3 nontoken creatures while flayer can pull off a win with 2 bridges, a therapy, and 2 nontoken creatures (or 1 bridge and 3 nontoken creatures). Flayer provides another angle of attack in cases when generating a lethal zombie army isn't enough to win the game.

[Ronald Deuce]

I like Flayer over FKZ these days because FKZ relies on a lethal zombie army to win via multiple bridges and 3 nontoken creatures while flayer can pull off a win with 2 bridges, a therapy, and 2 nontoken creatures (or 1 bridge and 3 nontoken creatures). Flayer provides another angle of attack in cases when generating a lethal zombie army isn't enough to win the game.

Yeah, that's a good point. I actually ran Flayer in my sideboard for a while in order to get around Ensnaring Bridge, etc. I've just been running light on Dread Return lately and had to deal with Eldrazi, so I rotated it out for Blazing Archon.

How many Ichorids/PAms are you running? I've found quad-Ichorid, double-PAm to reduce my reliance on Bridge from Below quite a bit.

[SHABOOGS]

I only run 4 narcos and 3 ichorids in my list. The downside of Flayer is that you need 3 DR to have a better chance of pulling off the kill with Flayer+GGT.

[laststepdown]

I went 5-0 at FNM last week with the following list. Matchups were:

2-0 UR delver, t1 g1 ashen'd his first land
2-0 Burn, g2 he conceded to me dredging iona and looking him straight in the eye
2-0 Esper Blade i think?
2-1 BR Reanimator, lost g2 to leyline
2-0 Sneak & Show, Ashen Rider stole both games imo


4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass (this would be 1 and 4 confluence but I only own 3 confluence)
3 Mana Confluence

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Breakthrough
4 Faithless Looting
1 Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge From Below
1 Dread Return

4 Putrid Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Ashen Rider

Sideboard
3 Lotus Petal
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Firestorm
1 Ashen Rider
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Dread Return
2 Prized Almagam

Haven't played magic since the last time I played dredge to a day 2 at SCG STL over a year ago, and this was my first time using Prized Almagam at all, as well as not running any reactive answer cards to stuff like Leyline/Cage/RiP/Wheelofsunandmoon/Crypt/Relic/Everyhatecardever/etc. I only brought Almagam in for g2 & g3 vs reanimator to help nullify his Reanimates, taking out Rider and Return, and vs Blade to diversify threats in case of Surgical Extraction. The reanimator pilot told me afterwards he took his Exhumes out after his experience with Ashen Rider g1, so the board plan apparently worked better than I was hoping. As for the Blade match, I had enough therapies g2 that I'm not sure my sideboard mattered. Anyway, even after winning the event and feeling very happy about getting 12 packs for $5 entry, I'm not sure I would play this deck at a large event like Louisville. Especially with as many Chalice@1 that are expected to be there. Like I said, I haven't played in over a year, Dredge is the only deck/cards I own anymore. It's not like the players there are expecting me to be there week after week, so they might have diminished their grave hate to 4 cards or so at the most, then this week it might be 6-7, taking out the stuff they didn't need vs the players that weren't a threat. That's how meta games work.

I hate this deck.

[jimmythegreek]

I get it, as I have cursed this deck many times myself. Don't get me wrong though; dredge will always have a place in my heart as its a deck that fits my personality. The key to being successful with Dredge is not letting your meta be prepared week after week for it. Having multiple decks will keep your meta always guessing. Obviously being a competent pilot is necessary but one our greatest weapons is surprise, we are the REAL boogeyman of the format.

[Ronald Deuce]

It's not like the players there are expecting me to be there week after week, so they might have diminished their grave hate to 4 cards or so at the most, then this week it might be 6-7, taking out the stuff they didn't need vs the players that weren't a threat. That's how meta games work.

It's worth pointing out that a number of decks don't really benefit from having graveyard hate anyway, though I don't think you faced any of those in that field.

[GoldenCid]

I went 5-0 at FNM last week with the following list. Matchups were:

2-0 UR delver, t1 g1 ashen'd his first land
2-0 Burn, g2 he conceded to me dredging iona and looking him straight in the eye
2-0 Esper Blade i think?
2-1 BR Reanimator, lost g2 to leyline
2-0 Sneak & Show, Ashen Rider stole both games imo


4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass (this would be 1 and 4 confluence but I only own 3 confluence)
3 Mana Confluence

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Breakthrough
4 Faithless Looting
1 Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge From Below
1 Dread Return

4 Putrid Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Ashen Rider

Sideboard
3 Lotus Petal
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Firestorm
1 Ashen Rider
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Dread Return
2 Prized Almagam

Haven't played magic since the last time I played dredge to a day 2 at SCG STL over a year ago, and this was my first time using Prized Almagam at all, as well as not running any reactive answer cards to stuff like Leyline/Cage/RiP/Wheelofsunandmoon/Crypt/Relic/Everyhatecardever/etc. I only brought Almagam in for g2 & g3 vs reanimator to help nullify his Reanimates, taking out Rider and Return, and vs Blade to diversify threats in case of Surgical Extraction. The reanimator pilot told me afterwards he took his Exhumes out after his experience with Ashen Rider g1, so the board plan apparently worked better than I was hoping. As for the Blade match, I had enough therapies g2 that I'm not sure my sideboard mattered. Anyway, even after winning the event and feeling very happy about getting 12 packs for $5 entry, I'm not sure I would play this deck at a large event like Louisville. Especially with as many Chalice@1 that are expected to be there. Like I said, I haven't played in over a year, Dredge is the only deck/cards I own anymore. It's not like the players there are expecting me to be there week after week, so they might have diminished their grave hate to 4 cards or so at the most, then this week it might be 6-7, taking out the stuff they didn't need vs the players that weren't a threat. That's how meta games work.

I hate this deck.

This is incredible. I havent seen a "Core list" like this in a couple of years. 4 ichorid + 4 therapy, nice. I thought i would never see it again.

Congrats. The old school deck still works...

I would include some anti-permanent hate...i recommned it. But your list looks fine.

1 more thing...how do you nullify reanimates with amalgalm?

[laststepdown]

This is incredible. I havent seen a "Core list" like this in a couple of years. 4 ichorid + 4 therapy, nice. I thought i would never see it again.

Congrats. The old school deck still works...

I would include some anti-permanent hate...i recommned it. But your list looks fine.

1 more thing...how do you nullify reanimates with amalgalm?

Putrid Imp for life. More resilient, more ichorids, more therapy targets.

The best target they can get vs me with reanimate is gone by boarding almagam in and boarding out the ashen rider and return. Make sense? Last thing you want them to do is take your Ashen Rider. You could take any card out besides the Dread Return and get the same result, but it's easier mentally to just remove the whole package.

Anti hate is a crutch in my humble opinion after piloting the archetype for the past decade. Read my good friend Richard Feldman's article for more insight on the debate. I'd consider Ancient Grudge or Nature's Claim though if it was really becoming an issue.

I've considered Petals main, I've run them before (2008-ish?) but it really makes the deck more loose to chalice.
Sorry for my short script, I'm terrible at posting on forums with my phone.

[GoldenCid]

Putrid Imp for life. More resilient, more ichorids, more therapy targets.

The best target they can get vs me with reanimate is gone by boarding almagam in and boarding out the ashen rider and return. Make sense? Last thing you want them to do is take your Ashen Rider. You could take any card out besides the Dread Return and get the same result, but it's easier mentally to just remove the whole package.

Anti hate is a crutch in my humble opinion after piloting the archetype for the past decade. Read my good friend Richard Feldman's article for more insight on the debate. I'd consider Ancient Grudge or Nature's Claim though if it was really becoming an issue.

I've considered Petals main, I've run them before (2008-ish?) but it really makes the deck more loose to chalice.
Sorry for my short script, I'm terrible at posting on forums with my phone.

4 pimp
4 ichorid
4 therapy

was a "must" for me in that time. Maybe they deserve a new call.

Indeed i never runned petals for speed the deck was pretty good with led, BT and Study. I always wanted permanent anti hate caRDS. Once upon a time was chain of vapor and pithing needle. Now nature's claim and/or grudge are good calls. For those match like combo unmask always did the thing.

[Ronald Deuce]

1 Careful Study . . . 4 Putrid Imp

That's an interesting setup. Why so few Careful Studies? Also wondering why a full quad of Imp, as I've not been running Imps for a while. Felt like it helped consistency a bit when I got it, but it reduced explosivity substantially. Interested to hear what you think!

[laststepdown]

That's an interesting setup. Why so few Careful Studies? Also wondering why a full quad of Imp, as I've not been running Imps for a while. Felt like it helped consistency a bit when I got it, but it reduced explosivity substantially. Interested to hear what you think!

I think I really answered this just a few posts above. Careful Study doesn't exile to Ichorid, and is much less resilient against hate. Imp gives you that naturally. Maybe I've had one too many Careful Studies get Spell Pierced in my day, but I've never been unhappy about dredging more Ichorid food. However, I actually have lost the game to starving Ichorids. Sure, it's less explosive than Study by a small margin. I'm just from a time where 4 Study/4 Breakthrough/2 Deep Analysis was what we had, and we ran 4 Imp and we fed our children. I'm doing this to feed the starving kids. Hell, there was a time when people ran Tireless Tribe. Have you ever tried to eat a white card? Don't do it. Take Ichorid's word for it. They taste terrible. The deck has been around a LONG time, and I've played enough versions to know what I'm personally comfortable with for my discard enablers. I choose Putrid Imp like you may choose a favorite Pokemon of the first 3 when you started the video game. The synergy is enough for me. I've got starving horrors. Putrid Imp is delicious. Careful Study has historically been very hit or miss. Breakthrough is the most powerful choice for an enabler obviously, that and Faithless Looting are auto 4x, but I don't feel Careful Study has been necessary in this deck ever since the printing of Looting, really. Optional, yes. Required? No.

The last time I touched this deck I was playing 2-3 Street Wraith to counter Deathrite Shaman (while still feeding), with the 3rd slot being a miser (do you kids still say that? sorry) Ashen Rider vs all the Omni/Sneak/Exhumes in my area. With less Deathrites around, I pulled the Wraiths out and looked at putting more land in so I could cast stuff a bit more reliably, no longer just folding to turn 1 Wasteland half the time. I wanted to keep the Rider main because it's an excellent removal spell with the Dread Return (sometimes it's just an optional subpar bridge activation), and it's as much Ichorid food as a Street Wraith. The least Ichorids I've ever ran main was 3, and I hated it. You want these cute lil fellas in play all the time, doing work. I'm not saying it's end-all, and you should put 1 Ashen Rider 1 Dread Return in your list no matter what, rather quite the opposite-if you like Careful Study, you could easily run up to 4, and you should run what you're comfortable with. The list I'm running just did the job at my local store, at one event, right? And you should adjust to what you're planning to do, be it local, online, or a large event. The Rider/Return is sort of a package. The core of the deck is just fine without either card. It is your decision whether you need it or not, and you can choose appropriately when you need to.

The x1 slot really could have been utility, like a Darkblast, or another Dread Return or something for a player that doesn't like Study. It is probably better as a Firestorm right now on a competitive level. When it comes down to it, the flex slots (imo of course based on the local meta) were the 'playset' of a) the 13th land, b) the Careful study, c) Dread Return d) Ashen Rider. If I was going to play Almagam x2 or x3 in main, I'd cut the Rider first, the Return, and then I would cut 1 Study before I cut the extra land or something as reliable as Putrid Imp or as powerful as Breakthrough or Faithless Looting.

I think the real questions should be pointed at the sideboard. I do think that including something more proactive like Unmask or Thoughtseize (even more something reactive like Nature's Claim, some Ingot Chewer/Wispmare combination, or Wear/Tear) would be better at a larger tournament than a 4 to 5 round FNM or weekly LGS event. I know my local meta enough to know (over two decades of experience with the game) when I can afford to run a fearless sideboard. Sideboards are usually full of interesting stuff to catch the opponent off guard. There isn't always a definite 15. The proper sideboard for an event or metagame can change by the hour. I had Aura Thief in my board at one point (in like 06 or 07?) since our Enchantress matchup is so bad. Return it, sac it to Therapy or another Return, cast Control Magic on their side of the table. It wasn't *good* by any means, but I was playing to one of my only outs. Depending on how en masse Eldrazi & Death and Taxes are going to be at Louisville, I wouldn't even play this deck. Most Eldrazi players will blind Chalice @1 no matter what, so if any of you have some insight on this matchup, I would love to hear it. I haven't had the time to test it, and like I said, I've been mostly away from the game for a number of years, but the format looks pretty bad to swim in right now for this deck.

Sorry for getting off topic, I hope this answers your inquiry a little more aptly along with my previous post. When you reap all the benefits enough times with Putrid Imp, you really miss him when he's not there. You're never going to sacrifice Careful Study to Therapy for your opponent's win condition. You're never going to be forced to discard your answer, be it a Macabre or Abrupt Decay or whatnot, by Putrid Imp. Putrid Imp wouldn't do that to you. Sometimes, on rare occasions, Putrid Imp will even go into combat for you-that's something Careful Study will only ever dream of. And after he's discarded all the stuff you wanted him to, went into battle for you, and died for you, he feeds your recurring horrors with his rotted corpse. Careful Study can be explosive, sure! It can also be a wet firework. Careful Study will never bait a Swords to Plowshares from the scared opponent. Careful Study wouldn't take that one for the team. That's not quality that I want to blindly rely on. When buffalo start rampaging towards your car on the way home from a tournament, Careful Study can't provide you with the insurance backup to get you the coverage you need. Putrid Imp cares about you and your deck, and Putrid Imp is here to help. Putrid Imp is the low cost coverage you can count on, and the quality you deserve. Like a good neighbor, Putrid Imp is there.

[Que]

@laststepdown.

If your opener has 1 land, Putrid Imp, Careful Study, Dredger, dredger, and idk Bridge, Ichorid what would you cast on turn 1? The Imp or the Draw spell?

[laststepdown]

@laststepdown.

If your opener has 1 land, Putrid Imp, Careful Study, Dredger, dredger, and idk Bridge, Ichorid what would you cast on turn 1? The Imp or the Draw spell?

This feels like a trick question. There's too many variables. Am I on the play or draw? On the play g1 t1 vs an unknown opponent (which is what I'm assuming you're asking) I'll cast Putrid Imp. On the draw, it depends what you drew as much as what you saw from the opponent. Say you draw (best case scenario) LED. You can go all in vs t1 Forest -> Elf card (i.e. cast the Careful Study+hold priority LED), or Mountain -> Goblin Guide, and should-you're running a race at this point and need to start sprinting. On the draw vs say, an uncracked Flooded Strand, you could be setting yourself up for disaster just trying to resolve your first Study and should adjust your plays appropriately. What if this opponent is Miracles? Imp could possibly do 6-10 points of damage unanswered, dual functioning as your discard outlet while they look for interaction. What if they're on Storm, and you didn't topdeck the LED (we're not all perfect)? Careful Study without LED t1 (dredge 4-6 t2) is never going to be as explosive as Imp t1 into Study t2 (dredge anywhere from 12-18). It's not like Careful Study has flashback. So, usually Putrid Imp.

[Que]

This feels like a trick question. There's too many variables. Am I on the play or draw? On the play g1 t1 vs an unknown opponent (which is what I'm assuming you're asking) I'll cast Putrid Imp. On the draw, it depends what you drew as much as what you saw from the opponent. Say you draw (best case scenario) LED. You can go all in vs t1 Forest -> Elf card (i.e. cast the Careful Study+hold priority LED), or Mountain -> Goblin Guide, and should-you're running a race at this point and need to start sprinting. On the draw vs say, an uncracked Flooded Strand, you could be setting yourself up for disaster just trying to resolve your first Study and should adjust your plays appropriately. What if this opponent is Miracles? Imp could possibly do 6-10 points of damage unanswered, dual functioning as your discard outlet while they look for interaction. What if they're on Storm, and you didn't topdeck the LED (we're not all perfect)? Careful Study without LED t1 (dredge 4-6 t2) is never going to be as explosive as Imp t1 into Study t2 (dredge anywhere from 12-18). It's not like Careful Study has flashback. So, usually Putrid Imp.

Not a trick question. And I'm sorry yeah I meant you're on the play T1 against an unknown opponent. It makes sense that you would want to cast Putrid Imp T1 especially with the limitation I gave which was you only have 1 land and like you said you will usually dredge more if you wait to cast your draw spell on turn 2 assuming it resolves.


Now onto the reason I asked that in the first place. And i'm sure there are math wizzes out there that can determine the odds of the following happening, but in my experience leading with Putrid Imp has left me dredging less (the opposite of what you're saying) because my opponent's turn 1 was either a Wasteland or a Duress/Thoughtseize to take said Draw Spell. After that you're left slow dredging every turn which in today's meta is not good enough. The reason I cast the draw spell first is to either draw more Careful Study/Faithless Looting, an LED, a Cephalid Coliseum, or another land in the chance the existing one does get wasted. I feel like you get more options that way rather than just sulking after the realization that the only land/draw spell you had going for you just got wrenched. Also if you did only have that one land then I would still want to fire off the draw spell because if you go turn 1 Putrid Imp with the hopes of casting a careful study on your turn 2 you also now leave yourself open to soft permission like Daze as well as Spell Pierce.

With all that in mind I just decided to not really run it. I do have Street Wraith's in my build which provides that extra food for Ichorid as well as having Prized Amalgams added to the count. Just my little opinion on our friend PImp.

[GoldenCid]

Ok this is what ill try. Any suggestions is welcomed. I was inspired by the core ichorid imp therapy

4 Ichorid
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Putrid Imp
3 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
3 Breakthrough
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Dread Return
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Mana Confluence
1 City of Brass
4 Bridge from Below
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Ashen Rider
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 1 Dread Return
SB: 1 City of Brass

[laststepdown]

Just got home from a Tuesday night Legacy LGS event, went 4-0 first place undefeated again with Dredge. I changed a few things & tested some stuff out different from last time I posted. Got excellent results again, so figured I would share.

Games:Opponent
2-0 RUG Delver
2-1 Shardless BUG (loss to Leyline turn 0, happens)
2-0 Abzan KotR (g2 won through surgical on GGT and a Bojuka Bog)
2-0 Death & Taxes

4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Mana Confluence
2 City of Brass (still don't own a 4th confluence, sorry)
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
2 Prized Amalgam
2 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Ashen Rider
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below

Sideboard
3 Lotus Petal
3 Unmask
3 Firestorm
3 Wear // Tear
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Saw alot of DRS today. Did not care once at all, just overwhelmed the little 1/2 out of relevance. If I see him more I may go back to 2-3 Street Wraith in main. Also, this was the first time I used Prized Amalgam in sanctioned play. I'm going to keep this super short and just say he over-performed. He's the reason I put the 2nd Dread Return from the board to the main.

[HansoRaptor]

Just got home from a Tuesday night Legacy LGS event, went 4-0 first place undefeated again with Dredge. I changed a few things & tested some stuff out different from last time I posted. Got excellent results again, so figured I would share.

Games:Opponent
2-0 RUG Delver
2-1 Shardless BUG (loss to Leyline turn 0, happens)
2-0 Abzan KotR (g2 won through surgical on GGT and a Bojuka Bog)
2-0 Death & Taxes

4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Mana Confluence
2 City of Brass (still don't own a 4th confluence, sorry)
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
2 Prized Amalgam
2 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Ashen Rider
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below

Sideboard
3 Lotus Petal
3 Unmask
3 Firestorm
3 Wear // Tear
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Saw alot of DRS today. Did not care once at all, just overwhelmed the little 1/2 out of relevance. If I see him more I may go back to 2-3 Street Wraith in main. Also, this was the first time I used Prized Amalgam in sanctioned play. I'm going to keep this super short and just say he over-performed. He's the reason I put the 2nd Dread Return from the board to the main.

First of all congratulations on doing so well even after a long pause of not playing!
I'm about to build LED Dredge and I have some questions regarding your build, I hope I can get some insight.

1. You "only" play 10 dredge creatures. Is that really enough to consistently hit them?
2. I see some list with 4 Amalgam, some with 0, and yours with 2. How often should I play it and why do you think it is worth playing over another dredger.
3. Why do you play Ashen Rider? Are you playing against a lot of Show and Tell or is there another reason?
4. I see in a lot of lists extra finisher, such as Flame-Kin Zealot and Flayer of the Hatebound. You play none of them. Any particular reasons?
5. Finally, could you give me some input on your Sideboard? I have no idea where you would prefer to board in Lotus Petal and Unmask.

[laststepdown]

First of all congratulations on doing so well even after a long pause of not playing!
I'm about to build LED Dredge and I have some questions regarding your build, I hope I can get some insight.

1. You "only" play 10 dredge creatures. Is that really enough to consistently hit them?
2. I see some list with 4 Amalgam, some with 0, and yours with 2. How often should I play it and why do you think it is worth playing over another dredger.
3. Why do you play Ashen Rider? Are you playing against a lot of Show and Tell or is there another reason?
4. I see in a lot of lists extra finisher, such as Flame-Kin Zealot and Flayer of the Hatebound. You play none of them. Any particular reasons?
5. Finally, could you give me some input on your Sideboard? I have no idea where you would prefer to board in Lotus Petal and Unmask.

Hey thanks. I love questions. Look at the build you quoted as more of a test run to see how Amalgam performs by my own personal play experience than my actual list.

1. Check my usual (maindeck-sideboard can change event to event, it's good to have some read on the field) list a page or so back. I would recommend starting from there and working with what you're comfortable with. This is actually the first tournament I've ever cut to less than 11 dredgers, I'm actually happy that you noticed. That's a good thing to spot, especially for someone new to the archetype. I normally run 12. Although, I do run 4 Putrid Imp which lets you reuse dredgers much more than the normal 4 Careful Study builds, so the smaller number hasn't been very noticeable at all.

2. I own 2 japanese foil Golgari Thugs, and 2 english foil Golgari Thugs. I'd been keeping a mental note of when the english Thugs made an actual difference in scenarios like mulligans and going off. I don't actually think this list is 100% correct, it's just what I was comfortable with that day after goldfishing the changes. Like I said, the initial process was to test Amalgam in a sanctioned environment, 500 goldfishes of using it as flashback fuel won't do anything to help interacting vs actual players. So I bought the hype and took out my english Thugs for 2 zombies. Amalgam was a house, even MVP at that tournament for me. He's the largest free threat we have been introduced to in our combat arsenal since actual Ichorid. Unless we start running Life from the Loam or something trying to hard cast Grave-Trolls. That was good when dredge was in standard, not now. Amalgam though, he's efficient. 3 seemed like it would be overkill and might show up too much in openers. As for running zero, I've played without them for the past decade. That being said, I don't know the right number yet, but it's most likely more than zero.

3. Ashen Rider is amazing. I'm not sure how well I can explain this, but to preemptively answer your next question, I do run a finisher, Ashen Rider is my finisher. If it strip mines their first and/or second land drop (if we're lucky after we sacrificed it to therapy,) we're pretty set to win that game. If someone tries to cast Exhume while you have a Putrid Imp or LED out, it's obviously good for you. It's not terrible in your opener vs a blind opponent-it obviously beats the card Show and Tell. It exiles to Ichorid (and Unmask,) while Flame-Kin and Flayer don't. That 3 haste damage can matter more than you think, especially vs a deck with a clock. All of these things are good. I could give you a decade of scenarios with the deck where I just-don't-see one of my 1-4 dread returns I am running that given year and my random silver bullet Flayers/Flame-kins didn't do anything but force mulligans and chunk up vital cards in that first dredge of the game. Ashen Rider is surprisingly interactive with the current meta in both your hand and graveyard, and a maindeck answer to MOST things we could actually possibly lose to game 1. On a good day with Ashen Rider, Dread Return-Therapy-Dread Return-Therapy you've exiled 4 permanents and Mind Warped them. Or it randomly won because your opponent went "Petal Tomb SNT" before you took a turn. On a bad day, an Ichorid had lunch. (I still remember the days when we had to use Angel of Despair. She didn't care about us or our Bridge from Below. Dark times.) It's my toy and you can't take it away from me.

4. The copies of both cards that I own are english foil and I actually just can't stand them. If you notice, I actually do run my ugly english foil Flayer in my sideboard.

5. Lotus Petal lets you go faster. 10 years ago, when we ran Deep Analysis and Faithless Looting wasn't a card yet, some dredge players rocked 4 Petal main. I was one of those players. It was win-more in most cases, but what it really did was showcase the power of the mechanic. They still have their uses and there are times when the matchup requires you to be a turn faster than you are capable of going off with the game 1 setup. For instance, I want to speed up vs a deck like DNT. I'd rather establish a dominant board presence as fast as possible before they can hope to get any 2 mana hatebears on the board. Lotus Petal lets you get to your silver bullet Iona/Elesh/Flayer/Rider or just to all of your therapies to dismantle their hand. If you think you need more discard, or you want perfect information & missing on a Therapy could be the loss but your opponent can easily sandbag their hate/answer to you, bring in Unmask. I prefer it to Thoughtseize because of a few reasons, besides just the life loss. You can go off the same turn you cast it alot easier than Thoughtseize. If it ever comes up, Unmask gets around Chalice @ 1. There's no harm in tweaking my numbers. My friends and I have gone deep enough to play Homarid Spawning Bed in the sideboard at points in the deck's existence. That choice is admittedly hard to justify to people at times. Anyway. Sideboards should contain interesting cards to keep your opponents off balance, regardless of the archetype you brought to the tournament. "Unmask you" can do that pretty well. There's a ton of other cards that would do just as fine of a job in your personal board, and you should have a sideboard you're comfortable and fluid with.

[HansoRaptor]

Thanks a lot! That was more insight than I was expecting, you really helped me a lot.
Guess I have to start playing and see what I feel most comfortable with.

[slave]

Well, Aether Revolt doesn't seem to have anything for Dredge that catches my eye.
And it's surprisingly thin on large creatures too..... :confused:

[Eretoryi]

Hey Slave, good to see you on here too! I just joined this site and it seems far more active than the other.

But yeah, once again Dredge gets no love.

[SHABOOGS]

I just joined this site and it seems far more active than the other.Nah man. It's pretty much dead here too since there isn't that much to talk about these days.

[Eretoryi]

Oh hey, SHABOOGS! Good to see you on here as well :D

Yeah, I understand. Maybe we should have a moment of silence for Modern. The poor format is once again without Dredge.

[Ronald Deuce]

Maybe we should have a moment of silence for Modern.

That's what we were doing until YOU guys showed up! GOD!

:D

[Eretoryi]

Oh dear. Forgive us!

I'm just excited to finally be on these forums because there is a lot more activity for Legacy as a whole here than elsewhere.

[Ronald Deuce]

Oh dear. Forgive us!

I'm just excited to finally be on these forums because there is a lot more activity for Legacy as a whole here than elsewhere.

It's all good! I was just joshing you guys. Glad there are more people reading/posting!

Laststepdown, belated congratulations! Good shooting.

I agree with you about Amalgam. When it was spoiled, I didn't think much of it, but I've been liking it a lot as a double. Powers up our Therapies and Bridges, enables Force of Will out of the sideboard very well, can dodge Terminus, and weathers more stuff than any of our other creatures that aren't dedicated Dread Return targets. With that said, when I tested a third, it didn't do much for me.

Haven't played a ton of Dredge lately, but when I have, I've been on a list with quad-Ichorid and quad-Thug, and I've found quads to work a lot better for me than triples did. Interested to hear if you're still tinkering with the mix.

I'm starting to consider taking out Griselbrand and adding a maindeck Petal (and maybe switching one of my rainbow-lands for a Petal, too). I keep finding G-Brand either overkills people or does very little (esp. with only one Dread Return in the main), but I'm curious as to whether people still like having him around.

I'm probably going to start playing Dredge more than I have been for a while. I think being "that Storm guy" has been working against me at the local, so I'm going to start mixing it up.

[Eretoryi]

Hehe, I had to play Dredge less because I was becoming the "Dredge guy," and people were bringing Leyline of the Void every week.

I always play four Golgari Thug and four Ichorid. I still haven't tested Prized Amalgam yet though, so I could see cutting an Ichorid for one, or even playing more with Force of Will in the sideboard.

I don't like Griselbrand as a Dread Return target. I prefer Flame-Kin Zealot or Dragonlord Kolaghan because they lead to a same turn combo win unless the opponent disrupts it. Griselbrand, on the other hand, requires us to pay life we may not have, and could still fail to win us the game (though that is unlikely). It just feels like adding an unnecessary step that costs life to the combo turn.

I have considered adding a Lotus Petal or two to the main deck, but I can never find room for them. Too many Putrid Imp (and one Tireless Tribe) in my deck because I love them so much :P

[Ronald Deuce]

Hehe, I had to play Dredge less because I was becoming the "Dredge guy," and people were bringing Leyline of the Void every week.

I always play four Golgari Thug and four Ichorid. I still haven't tested Prized Amalgam yet though, so I could see cutting an Ichorid for one, or even playing more with Force of Will in the sideboard.

I wouldn't cut Ichorid for PAm; Ichorid is just so perfect for everything the deck's trying to do, and it's really fast. (N.B.: It also enables PAm.)


I don't like Griselbrand as a Dread Return target. I prefer Flame-Kin Zealot or Dragonlord Kolaghan because they lead to a same turn combo win unless the opponent disrupts it. Griselbrand, on the other hand, requires us to pay life we may not have, and could still fail to win us the game (though that is unlikely). It just feels like adding an unnecessary step that costs life to the combo turn.

Flame-Kin is excellent, but I just find that it's rarely something I need to have. I keep it in my sideboard for matchups like Storm, where hasting and pumping our dudes is more important than building up a lot of zombies.

The thing that makes G-Brand handy is that he's also a black creature. At this point my real debate is over whether an extra black creature or another mana source would be better for my consistency. Kolaghan would fill that role as well, but I don't like that he neither boosts our other dudes nor draws us cards (nor, for that matter, gains us life). If we've got six zombies and a Zealot, we can swing for 21; we need more guys for lethal with Kolaghan, though I don't know how often that really matters (especially with fetches, etc.).


I have considered adding a Lotus Petal or two to the main deck, but I can never find room for them. Too many Putrid Imp (and one Tireless Tribe) in my deck because I love them so much :P

I personally don't run either PImp or Tribe, though occasionally I've found that a discard outlet would be good to have. Sounds like we have different approaches, which is fine; PImp is about half a step from being an inclusion for me, too. I'm on singletons Dread Return and G-Brand, with two Amalgams and quads of everything else (except 3x Gemstone and 1x black-bordered Italian City of Brass).

[Eretoryi]

I actually agree with you. Ichorid is the bomb, so I guess Prized Amalgam is best in addition to the four Ichorids in a less combo-oriented list.

Since I play four Putrid Imp I don't find myself lacking black creatures. You're right though, our styles are a bit different, which is totally fine. Now that I think about it, Prized Amalgam might actually be a nice addition to my list since I tend not to emphasize the combo finish. I think I have just grown to like PImp and Tribe because they're good against hate.

I add a 13th land usually, playing four Gemstone Mine, four Mana Confluence, and one City of Brass.

Man, thinking about my list makes me want to play it more! Maybe I'll take it to the next Legacy night I'm able to attend. I miss turning my deck upside down.

[Que]

Just wanted to say hey! and welcome new members!


Also on Tuesday I'm going to be streaming with Dredge Queen Erin Campbell herself. We will be jamming legacy with my current Dredge list. 7 PM PST. Check it out! :)

https://twitter.com/OriginalOestrus/status/820821736585383938

Twitch:

https://www.twitch.tv/originaloestrus

[SHABOOGS]

Nice. It's been a while since she played Legacy Dredge in her stream. Will def drop by to watch.

[potatodavid]

Just wanted to say hey! and welcome new members!


Also on Tuesday I'm going to be streaming with Dredge Queen Erin Campbell herself. We will be jamming legacy with my current Dredge list. 7 PM PST. Check it out! :)

https://twitter.com/OriginalOestrus/status/820821736585383938

Twitch:

https://www.twitch.tv/originaloestrus

You gonna post the list?

[Que]

You gonna post the list?

Oh sorry yeah its pretty much the same as before, however, because DRS has declined somewhat in the meta I have shifted back towards the inclusion of Putrid Imp over the Street Wraiths I had. In either case I don't feel such a change makes or breaks the deck tbh and you can beat DRS with either list convincingly.

Main Deck
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
2 Prized Amalgam
3 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
Creature ( 23)

4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 City Of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
Land ( 13)

3 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
1 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
Other ( 24)
qty: 60

Sideboard
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Ashen Rider
1 Breakthrough
1 City Of Brass
1 Dread Return
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Lotus Petal
2 Unmask
3 Wear // Tear
Sideboard ( 15)

[potatodavid]

Oh sorry yeah its pretty much the same as before, however, because DRS has declined somewhat in the meta I have shifted back towards the inclusion of Putrid Imp over the Street Wraiths I had. In either case I don't feel such a change makes or breaks the deck tbh and you can beat DRS with either list convincingly.

Main Deck
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
2 Prized Amalgam
3 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
Creature ( 23)

4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 City Of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
Land ( 13)

3 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
1 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
Other ( 24)
qty: 60

Sideboard
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Ashen Rider
1 Breakthrough
1 City Of Brass
1 Dread Return
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Lotus Petal
2 Unmask
3 Wear // Tear
Sideboard ( 15)

Whenever get the dredge urge. I typically refer to you and your list for the best practices//tech at the time. I'm liking ashen rider. Seems funny to dread return, sac and dread return again.

[jimmythegreek]

Oh sorry yeah its pretty much the same as before, however, because DRS has declined somewhat in the meta I have shifted back towards the inclusion of Putrid Imp over the Street Wraiths I had. In either case I don't feel such a change makes or breaks the deck tbh and you can beat DRS with either list convincingly.

Main Deck
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
2 Prized Amalgam
3 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
Creature ( 23)

4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 City Of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
Land ( 13)

3 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
1 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
Other ( 24)
qty: 60

Sideboard
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Ashen Rider
1 Breakthrough
1 City Of Brass
1 Dread Return
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Lotus Petal
2 Unmask
3 Wear // Tear
Sideboard ( 15)

Can't wait to see Prized Amalgam in action as I'm currently on the fence with the card. Question for Potato David: is that you with the radically-bodacious moustache for an avatar?

[Que]

Well we were crushed all night. xD 4 Matches total

We had to play against the same BUG Delver guy twice in which he scooped Turn 1 both game 1s. But he had enough disruption to stop us all other games in the form of counterspells, DRS, and wasteland with Surgicals. Mulligans to 5 and 4s did not help throughout the night either. Then we had to play against some BUG lands deck? I've never even seen such a thing, but he was able to disrupt our combo with FOW and then blow us out with Crop rotation? 2nd game he drew 3 crop rotations... Last game against Miracles. I directed an incorrect sideboard plan as I prepped for RIP and instead faced Surgical Snap Caster surgical. I do believe GP Louisville had something to do with the amount of Surgicals we saw tonight.

All in all I think it was a great experience streaming with Erin, And I would definitely run it back. Some tighter play, better draws, and less tanking on my part (trying to interact with the chat was an experience) would have served us well. Sorry if I was being dismissive to the chat at times. Part of why I wanted to stream alongside Erin was to give my input, but I think I was overthinking it and reading what lines the chat wanted to take. xD

Thanks for anyone that stopped by. I might go back and watch the vod too to offer notes on the matches.

Peace

[potatodavid]

Well we were crushed all night. xD 4 Matches total

We had to play against the same BUG Delver guy twice in which he scooped Turn 1 both game 1s. But he had enough disruption to stop us all other games in the form of counterspells, DRS, and wasteland with Surgicals. Mulligans to 5 and 4s did not help throughout the night either. Then we had to play against some BUG lands deck? I've never even seen such a thing, but he was able to disrupt our combo with FOW and then blow us out with Crop rotation? 2nd game he drew 3 crop rotations... Last game against Miracles. I directed an incorrect sideboard plan as I prepped for RIP and instead faced Surgical Snap Caster surgical. I do believe GP Louisville had something to do with the amount of Surgicals we saw tonight.

All in all I think it was a great experience streaming with Erin, And I would definitely run it back. Some tighter play, better draws, and less tanking on my part (trying to interact with the chat was an experience) would have served us well. Sorry if I was being dismissive to the chat at times. Part of why I wanted to stream alongside Erin was to give my input, but I think I was overthinking it and reading what lines the chat wanted to take. xD

Thanks for anyone that stopped by. I might go back and watch the vod too to offer notes on the matches.

Peace


https://www.twitch.tv/originaloestrus/v/115513444

Bug crushes. I've been told that MODO is a bad place to test dredge because all the yard hate is extremely cheap.

[YungPyr0]

Hey guys, long time lurker, been playing dredge on and off for about 3 years now and am looking to dive into it again. Unfortunately, i no longer have LEDs and won't be able to afford them in the near future, so my primary question is should i just stick to Manaless or can an LED-less version work? Hand disruption is a lot more common now between Grixis Delver being the popular flavor of delver, BR Reanimator, and BG Depths. I played at GP Lousiville and just got completely wrecked so I've been thinking about trying out a "budget" mana-version. For the record, I'm currently on the Blue version with mainboard FoW and whirlpool riders but will more than likely switch over to the all-in Balustrade Spy list if the budget list can't compete. Any thoughts are much appreciated!

[Ronald Deuce]

Well we were crushed all night. xD 4 Matches total

We had to play against the same BUG Delver guy twice in which he scooped Turn 1 both game 1s. But he had enough disruption to stop us all other games in the form of counterspells, DRS, and wasteland with Surgicals. Mulligans to 5 and 4s did not help throughout the night either. Then we had to play against some BUG lands deck? I've never even seen such a thing, but he was able to disrupt our combo with FOW and then blow us out with Crop rotation? 2nd game he drew 3 crop rotations... Last game against Miracles. I directed an incorrect sideboard plan as I prepped for RIP and instead faced Surgical Snap Caster surgical. I do believe GP Louisville had something to do with the amount of Surgicals we saw tonight.

All in all I think it was a great experience streaming with Erin, And I would definitely run it back. Some tighter play, better draws, and less tanking on my part (trying to interact with the chat was an experience) would have served us well. Sorry if I was being dismissive to the chat at times. Part of why I wanted to stream alongside Erin was to give my input, but I think I was overthinking it and reading what lines the chat wanted to take. xD

Thanks for anyone that stopped by. I might go back and watch the vod too to offer notes on the matches.

Peace

Ouch! Sorry to hear it, man.

Don't despair, though; from your report, it sounds like at least one of those people was determined not to lose to Dredge if they were hitting Surgicals that consistently (you got to play him/her twice!), and the metagame seems saturated with sideboard grave-hate for Reanimator right now.

Out of curiosity, do you think Force of Will would've helped in the matches you played? From my limited experience, Forcing a Surgical feels good, man.


Hey guys, long time lurker, been playing dredge on and off for about 3 years now and am looking to dive into it again.

Hey, YungPyr0!

LEDs are ideal, but I don't see any reason you couldn't run without them. More often than not LED doesn't make an appearance. And often, when it does, it's gumming up dredges because it doesn't do anything if we don't have it in hand. It's exceedingly powerful (especially here and in Storm), but it's not without flaws.

You're going to be running a lot less explosively, and you won't be able to capitalize on Faithless Looting, so I think if you want to try dredging without the Diamonds, you'll need to find a way to get more out of your dredges or to make your dredges more consistent. You might try running extra recursive creatures, cantrips, or discard outlets (e.g., Nether Shadow, Bloodghast, PAm, Street Wraith, PImp, or Firestorm), or maybe you could try maindeck disruption like Unmask.

Anybody else have ideas? I've never had the stones to try eschewing LED.

[laststepdown]

Cutting LED is really, and I mean REALLY counterproductive from a competitive standpoint. You would basically be playing a modern deck. It's effectively the same as removing the ammunition from a gun and expecting it to still shoot. Like dropping food crates on an enemy country instead of bombs. I don't recommend it.

[Ronald Deuce]

Cutting LED is really, and I mean REALLY counterproductive from a competitive standpoint. You would basically be playing a modern deck. It's effectively the same as removing the ammunition from a gun and expecting it to still shoot. Like dropping food crates on an enemy country instead of bombs. I don't recommend it.

Don't get me wrong: I don't think it's a good idea to run without it unless a) you don't have the cards, or b) you're 'boarding in Force of Will (even then, I don't think it's good to cut all of them). I was just saying that, if one were to build LED-less, the priority is to find a way to get better dredges because without LED you won't be getting god-hands that just blow through the deck on T1–2.

In answer to the original question, I guess I'd err on the side of playing manaless if you don't have Diamonds, though I can't say I'd recommend manaless either outside of very specific metagames.

[meffeo]

the same BUG Delver guy twice

Man, who could beat anyway 2x DRS + Waste + Surgical + Fow? Nevertheless, it was pretty entertaining watching the stream and I'm definitely gonna try out your sideboard, three Wear // Tear are really spicy.

[Asthereal]

Man, who could beat anyway 2x DRS + Waste + Surgical + Fow? Nevertheless, it was pretty entertaining watching the stream and I'm definitely gonna try out your sideboard, three Wear // Tear are really spicy.
Finally people joining me on the Wear//Tear plan. :smile:
One mana to destroy RiP/Leyline and two mana to destroy Chalice@1 or Cage.
And no additional life points go to the opponent, helping us grind the game out.

[SHABOOGS]

I've been testing the Serenity plan by Parcher as an answer to chalice and multiple leylines and I have been happy with the results. Might just drop the other anti hate and free up some sideboard slots by running a full playset of Serenity as an answer to artifact/enchantment based graveyard hate but I want to jam in more games with it first just to be sure.

[laststepdown]

Finally people joining me on the Wear//Tear plan

I've had them in and out for years, they're top tier. Some of the best plays with Wear//Tear were hitting Aether Vial & Rest in Peace at the same time vs Death & Taxes. The downside to Wear//Tear vs Serenity is that you pay 3 and only hit 2 things, when Serenity clears everything. This doesn't seem like a big swinger in Serenity's favor on paper, but Parcher is correct-it does something no other card can do for us. The upsides with Wear//Tear are great and I'm a huge advocate for it: you can sandbag it in your hand, it can't be Abrupt Decayed on the vital turn, can be cast for 1 if you just need to kill a Leyline effect, and you can 2 for 1 on a good day. All that said, both are proven better options than Nature's Claim and I'm glad the community as a whole is finally taking notice, even if it is 4 years late. If you're seeing a lot of Enchantress (which by the way was an actual abysmal unwinnable matchup in 2012-I was cursed by Brandon Large "what's your worst matchup? enchantress? that's what you're playing after your byes." at the legacy GP that year while we were getting lunch during our 2 byes. I panic and find an Aura Thief at a dealer table. Write it into my sideboard. Sit across from my round 3 opponent, what are the odds...he's Enchantress and he slaughters me. Miss that day 2 by 1 match loss. Looking back, I should have just brought Serenity instead of Wispmare.) then definitely pack 4 Serenity.

This actually reminded me I only own 3 Serenity. Good work team!

Edit: I was thinking about using a 1 of Sun Titan again in the main just for the lols while I was in the shower today, somewhere my brain was thinking about Thug recursions in modern and how Macabre/Wispmare/Ingot Chewer is a good package and whether or not Bojuka Bog/Loam was better than Thug/Macabre since you can kill the Thug when you want with Darkblast or Conflagrate-DIFFERENT FORMAT I KNOW-but back in 2012 we used Sun Titan to get back anything from LED or Cephalid Coliseum to put the entire deck in the graveyard, recur Therapy fodder or blockers, and we could cast Gnaw to the Bone out of sideboard vs burn and storm. Sun Titan would also be able to recur Serenity. The downside vs most Dread Return options is that it doesn't remove to Ichorid. Idle thought, sorry.

[Parcher]

All that said, both are proven better options than Nature's Claim and I'm glad the community as a whole is finally taking notice, even if it is 4 years late.

I got 25th at 2013 GPDC with 4 Wear/Tear. Caleb Neufeld copied the list and topped SCG Jersey a couple of months later. Sooo.....yeah.



If you're seeing a lot of Enchantress (which by the way was an actual abysmal unwinnable matchup in 2012-I was cursed by Brandon Large "what's your worst matchup? enchantress? that's what you're playing after your byes." at the legacy GP that year while we were getting lunch during our 2 byes. I panic and find an Aura Thief at a dealer table. Write it into my sideboard. Sit across from my round 3 opponent, what are the odds...he's Enchantress and he slaughters me. Miss that day 2 by 1 match loss. Looking back, I should have just brought Serenity instead of Wispmare.) then definitely pack 4 Serenity.

2012 GP Atlanta. Only went 11-4, that was GP Reanimator. Beat 2 Enchantress players on day one alone. One being Melissa De Tora. Without Wear/Tear, or Serenity. Sooo.....yeah.

[laststepdown]

2012 GP Atlanta. Only went 11-4, that was GP Reanimator. Beat 2 Enchantress players on day one alone. One being Melissa De Tora. Without Wear/Tear, or Serenity. Sooo.....yeah.

Was 2012 a reanimator year? I came back to magic that year after a small break from 2009-2011 and had no metagame analysis when I entered the tournament beyond scouting grinders on Friday night. I'm pretty sure I was working at a LGS at the time of Atlanta, and couldn't get the time off to make the 16 hour drive. I forgot we used to get more than 1 legacy GP a year...heartbreaking. Every enchantress player in the world vs me still today gets a natural t1 ramp+Elephant Grass, t2 SoCo or whatever they need. This guy in particular was running maindeck Ground Seal too, so I couldn't even Dread Return. I'm not even joking, it was the most humiliating game of magic for me of all time-oh you're on dredge? Here, let me E tutor for every card you can't win against. I need 8 Serenity to win that matchup personally. This was before RtR and RiP too, you know. I still remember an Esper Stoneblade player having maindeck Surgical+Snap in his opener (turns out he knew a friend of mine and found out I was on dredge so kept accordingly) and a Merfolk player having maindeck Relic of Progenitus at that tournament too. I ended at x-3, just short of day 2.

[Que]

Hi all,

Just some notes from my last couple of tournaments.

I played in a 43 man credit tournament so it was 6 rounds. I went 4-2 and with some good breakers ended up in 8th. We all split the credit and called it a day. I don't remember much details about this tournament, but the decklist was the same as the one Erin played on her stream.

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21778&iddeck=167485

Most recent played a Legacy Staples tournament with Volcanic as the top Prize. It was 6 rounds and I went 4-0, Id, Id into top 8.

My matchups:

Round 1: Lowell H. with Elves
1-0
Round 2: John H. with Elves
2-0
Round 3: Christopher G. with Manaless Dredge
3-0
Round 4: Travis B. with B/R Reanimator
4-0
Round 5: ID
Round 6: ID

Top 8

Quarterfinals: Greg Borish with Aggro Loam

You can watch the Quarterfinals on twitch here:https://www.twitch.tv/videos/118069223
The match starts around 5:07, Also I apologize in advance for the amount of shuffling that happens lol skip ahead appropriately xD

Semi Finals: Patrick with Lands (off stream)

Game 1 notes: I had a zombie, 2 Amalgams, and an LED in play and no lands after an early setup. Patrick draws a crop rotation on his turn and grabs a Tabernacle. He didn't want to grab a Bojuka Bog as I already had 8 power on the board and he had nothing really going. On my turn I crack my LED to keep my 3 creatures around. I crash in for 8 putting Patrick down to 12. Patrick plays some land don't remember. On my turn I stack the tabernacle trigger and return an Ichorid back from my graveyard even though I lose the 2 Amalgams and the zombie. At this point I also have 3 Bridge from Below, but tabernacle is making them somewhat irrelevant since i can't pay to keep the zombies around anymore. On my turn I dredge into a Narcomoeba and Cabal Therapy. I cabal therapy'd myself to generate 3 zombies. I Dread Returned another Ichorid to crash in for 6 putting Patrick down to 6. Next turn I stacked the triggers again and brought both Ichorid back to finish the game.

Game 2: Patrick made a turn 3 20/20 and killed me swiftly.

Game 3: Patrick has an early tabernacle, but I'm able to combo and Dread Return into the Ashen Rider I boarded in to Exile the pesky land. Ashen Rider plus Ichorid and zombies finish the game and the match for me.

Finals on stream: Same link match starts around 6:54

Decklist is the same as the one I posted above, however, I replaced the Putrid Imps and favored Street Wraiths again. After seeing the amount of Surgical that was being played it felt absolutely right. That and the fact that BUG decks are starting to rise.

I'll edit the post later to fill in anymore details about the swiss matchups tomorrow. gnight. :)

[potatodavid]

Hi all,

Just some notes from my last couple of tournaments.

I played in a 43 man credit tournament so it was 6 rounds. I went 4-2 and with some good breakers ended up in 8th. We all split the credit and called it a day. I don't remember much details about this tournament, but the decklist was the same as the one Erin played on her stream.

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=21778&iddeck=167485

Most recent played a Legacy Staples tournament with Volcanic as the top Prize. It was 6 rounds and I went 4-0, Id, Id into top 8.

My matchups:

Round 1: Lowell H. with Elves
1-0
Round 2: John H. with Elves
2-0
Round 3: Christopher G. with Manaless Dredge
3-0
Round 4: Travis B. with B/R Reanimator
4-0
Round 5: ID
Round 6: ID

Top 8

Quarterfinals: Greg Borish with Aggro Loam

You can watch the Quarterfinals on twitch here:https://www.twitch.tv/videos/118069223
The match starts around 5:07, Also I apologize in advance for the amount of shuffling that happens lol skip ahead appropriately xD

Semi Finals: Patrick with Lands (off stream)

Game 1 notes: I had a zombie, 2 Amalgams, and an LED in play and no lands after an early setup. Patrick draws a crop rotation on his turn and grabs a Tabernacle. He didn't want to grab a Bojuka Bog as I already had 8 power on the board and he had nothing really going. On my turn I crack my LED to keep my 3 creatures around. I crash in for 8 putting Patrick down to 12. Patrick plays some land don't remember. On my turn I stack the tabernacle trigger and return an Ichorid back from my graveyard even though I lose the 2 Amalgams and the zombie. At this point I also have 3 Bridge from Below, but tabernacle is making them somewhat irrelevant since i can't pay to keep the zombies around anymore. On my turn I dredge into a Narcomoeba and Cabal Therapy. I cabal therapy'd myself to generate 3 zombies. I Dread Returned another Ichorid to crash in for 6 putting Patrick down to 6. Next turn I stacked the triggers again and brought both Ichorid back to finish the game.

Game 2: Patrick made a turn 3 20/20 and killed me swiftly.

Game 3: Patrick has an early tabernacle, but I'm able to combo and Dread Return into the Ashen Rider I boarded in to Exile the pesky land. Ashen Rider plus Ichorid and zombies finish the game and the match for me.

Finals on stream: Same link match starts around 6:54

Decklist is the same as the one I posted above, however, I replaced the Putrid Imps and favored Street Wraiths again. After seeing the amount of Surgical that was being played it felt absolutely right. That and the fact that BUG decks are starting to rise.

I'll edit the post later to fill in anymore details about the swiss matchups tomorrow. gnight. :)

*watching your matches now*

[potatodavid]

Well done!

[Plaek]

Que, did you replace all the Putrid Imps with Wraiths or just some?

Against which matchups would you side in Ashen Rider other than Sneak and Show and is there a matchup you would absolutely need the two Ashen Riders rather than 1 Rider and 1 fast-attacker (Flayer or Flame-Kin) in the sideboard?
And when do Unmasks come in? Against counter-heavy matchups?

[Que]

Que, did you replace all the Putrid Imps with Wraiths or just some?

Against which matchups would you side in Ashen Rider other than Sneak and Show and is there a matchup you would absolutely need the two Ashen Riders rather than 1 Rider and 1 fast-attacker (Flayer or Flame-Kin) in the sideboard?
And when do Unmasks come in? Against counter-heavy matchups?

Yo Plaek. I did in fact replace all the Putrid Imp with Street Wraiths for the tournament reason being more BUG and Surgical and Chalice. Plus the extra Dredges are always welcome.

Other than boarding them in against Sneak & Show Ashen Rider is a catch all answer to any troublesome permanent. My matchup against lands is a perfect example as the Ashen Rider allows me to beat cards like Tabernacle, Glacial Chasm, etc. I've brought it in against decks that play Ensnaring Bridge or other types of soft lock permanents. I had two because my current meta sees a lot of Sneak & Show and I consider that a volatile matchup which I wanted to shore up. You can alternatively pick something else like Elesh Norn or open up that slot for something else. I don't bring it in against "Fair" decks though as the dread return package is not the primary plan. If you've seen my lists I don't play any dedicated DR targets. In my experience they're not needed, but its preference. If I did run any one target it would probably be flame kin for the sheer fact that you don't need anything else to make him work other than reanimating it. I guess Griselbrand would be a close 2nd.

The Unmasks I haven't used too often and I've only recently added them. They're mainly there to take hate pieces from DnT and presumably strip a Surgical before you commit anything to the graveyard against the Delver decks. I still have to do more testing with it. Originally I thought I would bring it in against other combo decks to break their combo, but I don't like that plan now and I'm sticking to being faster by bringing in lotus petals and just combing them harder. It usually works out.

@PotatoDavid. Thanks bro! :D

[SHABOOGS]

Congrats on another win, Que! Can you share your sideboard plan against Lands? Is it just Ashen Rider? Sad to say that I haven't won an official match against it.

[Que]

Congrats on another win, Que! Can you share your sideboard plan against Lands? Is it just Ashen Rider? Sad to say that I haven't won an official match against it.

Thanks brotha.

And against Lands I'm trying to straight up combo them and land an Iona on Green to cut them off of Loam. Its not game over necessarily, but its very strong and you're usually putting a bunch of zombies into play alongside a 7/7 so they shouldn't have any time to actually answer that. Other times you're dread returning Ashen Rider to ensure your zombies are able to come across stopping dumb lands like Tabernacle, Maze of ith, and Glacial Chasm. Side note even stops Bojuka bog if they were foolish enough to drop it early to eat your graveyard while you were sandbagging additional gas. Its important that you can exile it because once they start recurring Bog its clearly over. The plan:

+ 2 Lotus Petal
+ 1 Dread Return
+ 1 Iona,
+ 1 Ashen Rider
+ 1 Breakthrough

- 1 City of Brass
- 2 Amalgam
- 1 Street Wraith
- 1 Careful Study
- 1 Cabal Therapy (you're only going to be naming 1 card primarily with it and your opponent will use it the first chance they get anyway so this is fine, all others will be used to generate zombies to ensure you're still able to apply pressure if you don't happen to land a Dread Return)

In Game:
If you happen to be fortunate enough to have a Narco and a Cabal Therapy early against them then Cabal Therapy would name in this order Crop Rotation, Exploration, Gamble. You can't play around Crop Rotation and it almost always grabs Bog which can be a huge blowout if they time it right. Exploration allows them to pull to fair ahead with the loam engine. Gamble can find them Glacial Chasm, Tabernacle, Bog, and loam obviously. Remember also you can stack the Tabernacle trigger so that you can have Ichorid enter the battlefield without paying the 1. This will allow you to push through damage and even close out games if you have multiple unanswered Ichorids. You're just trying to overwhelm them ultimately.

[Ronald Deuce]

Remember also you can stack the Tabernacle trigger so that you can have Ichorid enter the battlefield without paying the 1. This will allow you to push through damage and even close out games if you have multiple unanswered Ichorids. You're just trying to overwhelm them ultimately.

Just now realizing how good Flame-Kin Zealot is against Tabernac.

I'm an amateur.

[SHABOOGS]

Thanks, Que. I'll keep that in mind the next time I play against Lands.

[Que]

@Ronald. Be mindful they can still have Glacial Chasm which this deck can only beat via Ashen Rider. And Also if they can't keep recurring it/pay for the cumulative upkeep which is rare xD


Thanks, Que. I'll keep that in mind the next time I play against Lands.

No worries. I still consider this a bad matchup, but I have found windows to beat that deck if they don't assemble the right pieces in time. Which is why to me its important that you try to combo them out as soon as you can while being cognizant of the fact that you can't really play around Crop Rotation.

[Ronald Deuce]

@Ronald. Be mindful they can still have Glacial Chasm which this deck can only beat via Ashen Rider. And Also if they can't keep recurring it/pay for the cumulative upkeep which is rare xD

Oh, definitely. I've learned the hard way to watch out for the Chasm.

Funny story I told in the Storm thread a while back: was playing against 12-Post and knew the opponent didn't have a Tabernacle. He played a Tropical Island and passed. I played rituals (incl. Rain of Filth) and Empty the Warrens for 16–18. He Rotated into Chasm, so I was thinking that would be game. He proceeded to bleed out without finding a follow-up while I was sitting there with a barrel of Goblins and no other permanents and couldn't attack.

That whole tournament was a carnival of bad plays and worse luck for everybody.

[SHABOOGS]

Played a GPT yesterday and went 3-2 finishing 12th out of 32 players. Both my losses were due to misplays involving Cabal Therapy. Probably rusty? Still wanted to share my match ups:

Rd1 1-2 loss vs BUG Leovold/TNN
Rd2 1-0 win vs Infect
Rd3 2-0 win vs Burn w/ DRS
Rd4 0-2 loss vs Mentor Miracles
Rd5 2-0 win vs Legend Miracles

Rd1 Game 3 opponent had a TNN, DRS, and EE while I had Narcomoebas and Zombies. I top decked LED and wanted him to pop his EE by attacking for lethal (which happened and made him tap out), then I flashbacked Faithless Looting to look for Therapy (which I found), then flashback Therapy to get more zombies and win the race against TNN (which I for the life of me forgot to do even though I was digging for it with Looting!). When I passed the turn my opponent immediately exiled Therapy with DRS and lost the race soon after.

Rd4 Game 1 against Mentor Miracles I got to go off and look at his hand which had no countermagic. I had the Flayer kill in my GY and I thought I had another Therapy to generate enough zombies for the second DR (Troll). I went for it and had Flayer in play but didn't have enough dudes for Troll because I didn't have another Therapy to trigger Undying and Bridge from Below. Got it StPed at EoT and lost the game against Monk tokens. Game 2 I had a turn 1 Therapy and I always named RIP but for some strange reason I named SDT and saw RIP in his hand. Got to draw and cast Serenity a few turns later but it got FoWed and died to Monk tokens again.

[Que]

Played a GPT yesterday and went 3-2 finishing 12th out of 32 players. Both my losses were due to misplays involving Cabal Therapy. Probably rusty? Still wanted to share my match ups:

Rd1 1-2 loss vs BUG Leovold/TNN
Rd2 1-0 win vs Infect
Rd3 2-0 win vs Burn w/ DRS
Rd4 0-2 loss vs Mentor Miracles
Rd5 2-0 win vs Legend Miracles

Rd1 Game 3 opponent had a TNN, DRS, and EE while I had Narcomoebas and Zombies. I top decked LED and wanted him to pop his EE by attacking for lethal (which happened and made him tap out), then I flashbacked Faithless Looting to look for Therapy (which I found), then flashback Therapy to get more zombies and win the race against TNN (which I for the life of me forgot to do even though I was digging for it with Looting!). When I passed the turn my opponent immediately exiled Therapy with DRS and lost the race soon after.

Rd4 Game 1 against Mentor Miracles I got to go off and look at his hand which had no countermagic. I had the Flayer kill in my GY and I thought I had another Therapy to generate enough zombies for the second DR (Troll). I went for it and had Flayer in play but didn't have enough dudes for Troll because I didn't have another Therapy to trigger Undying and Bridge from Below. Got it StPed at EoT and lost the game against Monk tokens. Game 2 I had a turn 1 Therapy and I always named RIP but for some strange reason I named SDT and saw RIP in his hand. Got to draw and cast Serenity a few turns later but it got FoWed and died to Monk tokens again.

Hey dude not a bad outing at all and it sounds like you knew how to approach the games you were in/knew what you needed to hit to take the game. If its just simply miscounting or forgetting stuff then at least you know its something within your own power to control. With tighter plays and some good flips its difficult for any deck to stop you on a given day. I've been having an ok time against BUG unless they have a couple of DRS backed up with disruption. otherwise its really easy to get far ahead against the deck. They potentially have a lot of dead cards like Abrupt Decay, Hymn, Liliana, to weaker cards like TNN (cause its slow), Leovold, Strix. etc. so they rely heavily on disruption and deathrite to steal games.

[SHABOOGS]

Thanks, Que. In hindsight, I also laid out my GY in front of my opponent (probably to show off? lol) during that tournament instead of usually having it in one stacked pile and grabbing it everytime I plan my next move. That might be why I missed those Therapies that day. Just another lesson learned haha.

[Que]

Hey everyone! So this Saturday myself and my other legacy cohorts will be doing a Legacy gauntlet stream. We will have quite a few decks to work with so hopefully will get to bring you some exciting matches. Of course I will be running Dredge for the most part, but we will have some rotations throughout the day. There is no official start time, however, most likely around 3 PM PST (6 EST). I will probably post once more before the event to provide a clearer time in the chance that we start to deviate too much from our original start time. We will be BBQing before hand and while not certain I believe my buddy whose hosting wanted to incorporate that into the stream somehow (including the audience). Will see. :)

I hope you see you all there and please share with anyone else that may be remotely interested in Legacy. Here is the link to his channel:

https://www.twitch.tv/railbirdgaming

You can also hit that follow button to get notified whenever we go live.

Thanks guys,

[slave]

I took the Dredge to the local, went 4-1. My side had a total of 4 Serenity and I killed it, otherwise the normal suspects like Iona.
I beat Elves, U-Merfolk, UWb-Stoneblade & Miracles, got beaten by Eldrazi c/o Crop Rotation for Bojuka Bog. I just had no answers to them.

I've dropped FoW and Prized Amalgam for now, I'm finding DRS and Sc-Ooze aren't as omnipresent anymore, so despite running the blue side for freakin ages I think I'll give it a rest.

RE: Eldrazi. I feel I'm still learning how to play against them, but I'm often getting smashed 0-2.
They have ways to tax us, kill our bridges, exile our biz and exile our yard. I've tried going fearless with petals for speed, but it's not worked well so far.
So how do you guys beat them? Anyone beat them consistently?

[Oestrus]

I'm gonna be streaming Dredge in today's Legacy Challenge.

Come say hello!

twitch.tv/OriginalOestrus (http://twitch.tv/OriginalOestrus)

[Que]

Hey everyone! So this Saturday myself and my other legacy cohorts will be doing a Legacy gauntlet stream. We will have quite a few decks to work with so hopefully will get to bring you some exciting matches. Of course I will be running Dredge for the most part, but we will have some rotations throughout the day. There is no official start time, however, most likely around 3 PM PST (6 EST). I will probably post once more before the event to provide a clearer time in the chance that we start to deviate too much from our original start time. We will be BBQing before hand and while not certain I believe my buddy whose hosting wanted to incorporate that into the stream somehow (including the audience). Will see. :)

I hope you see you all there and please share with anyone else that may be remotely interested in Legacy. Here is the link to his channel:

https://www.twitch.tv/railbirdgaming

You can also hit that follow button to get notified whenever we go live.

Thanks guys,

We're live now! :)

[SHABOOGS]

Dropped by the stream earlier and was able to catch Que against Shardless but I fell asleep after the match (woke up early and it was around 7am here when I watched). Will watch the recording and look for your other match ups.

[Que]

Dropped by the stream earlier and was able to catch Que against Shardless but I fell asleep after the match (woke up early and it was around 7am here when I watched). Will watch the recording and look for your other match ups.

Hey thanks for stopping by. Not sure what it is about streams, but the deck tends to have a mind of its own. In the matches where I didn't lose to a combination of hate and disruption I lost to my own variance mulling down to 3-4 on several occasions. Which is unfortunate when I'm trying to showcase the strengths of the deck. We all know having to mulligan quite a few times is one of the drawbacks of this deck as you really do need to see specific cards that start and facilitate your engine. But I'm hoping some glimmer of what the deck is capable of was shown.

In any case we streamed several games of Legacy with different archtypes represented throughout the day. It became more of a Legacy shindig rather than a turn style of decks Vs. Dredge. Going forward were probably hoping to be more structured and not have everyone talk over one another, but we were also less formal about it this time around as it was more laid back with drinks and food etc.

Again thanks for anyone that stopped by and hopefully I can join twitch.tv/railbirdgaming once again at some point to do it again. If you haven't given them a follow I would recommend it as they're now usually trying to stream at least a couple times a week. Get notified when they go live!

Peace,

[HansoRaptor]

Is it just me or is everyone and their mother playing Surgical Extraction?
I know that BR Reanimator was a major factor in causing this increase in Surgical Extraction, but even now I feel like people just smash it into every sideboard.

What are your opinions on Ground Seal? It could enable a much slower but safer route to dredging.
Pros and Cons of Ground Seal:

+ Stops Surgical Extraction
+ Stops Deathrite Shaman
+ Stops Scavenging Ooze
+ Stops Faerie Macabre
+ Stops Snapcaster Mage
+ Stops Life from the Loam
+ Stops Reanimate
+ Stops Animate Dead
+ Draws a card for dredging (or replaces itself)

- Doesn't stop Leyline of the Void
- Doesn't stop Rest in Piece
- Doesn't stop Tormods Crypt
- Doesn't stop Nihil Spellbomb
- (kinda) expensive to cast
- Can be destroyed by Abrupt Decay

So what's obvious is that Ground Seal stops basically any creature based hate, while also stopping two popular hate cards (Surgical and Faerie Macabre).
Interesting to note is that it also stops Life from the Loam and Reanimation Spells, such as Reanimate and Animate dead, but I wouldn't really consider these advantages, as I feel that Ground Seal is way too slow for the Reanimator match-up.

In my sideboard Ground Seal would replace Fire Storm and would come in in match-ups where Leyline and RiP is absent. For match-ups with Leyline and RiP I would board in additional Wear // Tear. Going this route would probably require playing additional Lotus Petals, so that the deck does not loose its speed.
But is it really better than Fire Storm though?
And does Pithing Needle not cover a lot of its advantages already?

What are you opinions on this? Do you think it is worth trying or should I scrap this idea for things I hadn't thought about yet. I'm interested in your insight on this.

[Parcher]

Is it just me or is everyone and their mother playing Surgical Extraction?
I know that BR Reanimator was a major factor in causing this increase in Surgical Extraction, but even now I feel like people just smash it into every sideboard.

What are your opinions on Ground Seal? It could enable a much slower but safer route to dredging.
Pros and Cons of Ground Seal:

+ Stops Surgical Extraction
+ Stops Deathrite Shaman
+ Stops Scavenging Ooze
+ Stops Faerie Macabre
+ Stops Snapcaster Mage
+ Stops Life from the Loam
+ Stops Reanimate
+ Stops Animate Dead
+ Draws a card for dredging (or replaces itself)

- Doesn't stop Leyline of the Void
- Doesn't stop Rest in Piece
- Doesn't stop Tormods Crypt
- Doesn't stop Nihil Spellbomb
- (kinda) expensive to cast
- Can be destroyed by Abrupt Decay

So what's obvious is that Ground Seal stops basically any creature based hate, while also stopping two popular hate cards (Surgical and Faerie Macabre).
Interesting to note is that it also stops Life from the Loam and Reanimation Spells, such as Reanimate and Animate dead, but I wouldn't really consider these advantages, as I feel that Ground Seal is way too slow for the Reanimator match-up.

In my sideboard Ground Seal would replace Fire Storm and would come in in match-ups where Leyline and RiP is absent. For match-ups with Leyline and RiP I would board in additional Wear // Tear. Going this route would probably require playing additional Lotus Petals, so that the deck does not loose its speed.
But is it really better than Fire Storm though?
And does Pithing Needle not cover a lot of its advantages already?

What are you opinions on this? Do you think it is worth trying or should I scrap this idea for things I hadn't thought about yet. I'm interested in your insight on this.

Everything you wrote seems accurate. The reason I wouldn't run Seal is that the main deck it seems to target is BUG. Of whatever version. Since they all run Deathrite and Surgical. The problems are twofold. One, you would need to run Petal in conjunction to reliably resolve Seal. This means you would need to cut any other slots you might need for those matchups. With a typical deck running some permanent remove for Leylines and Cages, and some form of Dread package in the side, you wont have any other slots. Which mean you are all-in on Seal vs those decks. Two, Delver will never let Seal resolve. And even if they do, they will have Decays still, since they don't have enough cards to SB in against us. Same goes for Shardless. Only they are less likely to be able to counter it, and more likely to discard it, or have some other hate that Seal does nothing against. You don't feel its fast enough vs Reanimator. Loam is not how Lands beats us. You cant board it in vs MUD or Eldrazi. Since while they do sometimes run Macabre, they are at least as likely to run Crypt or Leyline respectively. Not sure where the benefits lay.

[laststepdown]

It shuts off your own Dread Returns as well. I wouldn't run it over Firestorm.

[HansoRaptor]

So I have been testing 3 Ground Seal right now by removing 2 Dread Return and 1 Ashen Rider and I had some mediocre success with it.

What I'm wondering though is how you guys manage to win against Surgical Extraction? Everyone I'm playing online against has them in their sideboard. I even moved from Putrid Imp to Street Wraith just to fight these Surgicals, but even then my opponent responses to my Cycling with a second Surgical :rolleyes: Perhaps I'm just having some bad luck and my opponents just happen to draw the right cards :frown:

[Parcher]

So I have been testing 3 Ground Seal right now by removing 2 Dread Return and 1 Ashen Rider and I had some mediocre success with it.

What I'm wondering though is how you guys manage to win against Surgical Extraction? Everyone I'm playing online against has them in their sideboard. I even moved from Putrid Imp to Street Wraith just to fight these Surgicals, but even then my opponent responses to my Cycling with a second Surgical :rolleyes: Perhaps I'm just having some bad luck and my opponents just happen to draw the right cards :frown:

To start, how are you having issues with Surgical if you're successful with Seal?

[HansoRaptor]

To start, how are you having issues with Surgical if you're successful with Seal?

Mediocre success. Just because I have it in the sideboard does not mean that I get to draw it and it does also not mean that I get to win while having it out. Sometimes dredging just does not work out.
What I would like to know is if there are other angles you try to attack when you know the opponent has boarded in some number of surgicals. Do you just go for it as soon as possible or do you try to play the slow game with unmask and the likes?

[Parcher]

Mediocre success. Just because I have it in the sideboard does not mean that I get to draw it and it does also not mean that I get to win while having it out. Sometimes dredging just does not work out.
What I would like to know is if there are other angles you try to attack when you know the opponent has boarded in some number of surgicals. Do you just go for it as soon as possible or do you try to play the slow game with unmask and the likes?

Traditionally, yes. I play the slow game. So to speak. That's simply not how things are any longer though. Until recently, only decks that had stack or hand interaction played Surgical. You'd never see a deck that has neither, like DnT, do so since they odds of their hitting what they desire were far too low. That mean counters, and/or discard. Typically those are slower decks, so playing around Surgical was fine. More directly towards your question, I don't feel it's necessary to board directly for Surgical. Diversification seems to work best. Adding a couple of Amalgams to supplement your Ichorids. Running PImp, so that intelligent players seriously have to pause before trying to Surgical a dredger. Running Dread, no targets, vs decks we typically wouldn't. So if we go off fast they have to Surgical Narco. And if more grindy, Bridge. With either single case, it's pretty easy to still get 3 creatures to Dread. And most of the decks running Surgical don't run White. And, yes, Unmask. With the decks that ran Surgical, hitting counters was often as good as Surgical since a Breakthrough could often power you through one. And waiting until you had a Therapy, or just needing a superfluous Black card wasn't much of an issue due to their slower clock. That said, this is no longer the case. Most of the format, at an exceedingly high level when filtering down towards the lesser skilled players, now have the fear of B/R Reanimator. And they're running tons of Surgical and Macabre since, as I mentioned, they have no interaction off the board. Which wouldn't be an issue, except it's not universal. You can see a DnT player running 2 Macabre, 2 Surgical, and right next to them another running 2 Priest, 3 RiP. I don't have a conclusion for you here. This is why I switched to Force. Its certainly not the most consistant, nor resource-light measure. But it does allow me a universal answer to hate from non-interactive decks that doesn't force me to diverge from the deck's primary gameplan.

[HansoRaptor]

Thanks, that is a lot of insight. Do you have a decklist perhaps? I'm interested in checking it out. Could't find something the last 3-4 pages.

[Parcher]

Thanks, that is a lot of insight. Do you have a decklist perhaps? I'm interested in checking it out. Could't find something the last 3-4 pages.

Just for a generic meta. Rider not needed if Lands and Show or the like aren't relevant;

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
2 Prized Amalgam
2 Putrid Imp

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting

4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Mana Confluence
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
1 City of Brass

2 Firestorm
2 Unmask
1 Lotus Petal
3 Wear/Tear
1 Ashen Rider
2 Dread Return
4 Force of Will

[Oestrus]

Just for a generic meta. Rider not needed if Lands and Show or the like aren't relevant;

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
2 Prized Amalgam
2 Putrid Imp

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting

4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Mana Confluence
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
1 City of Brass

2 Firestorm
2 Unmask
1 Lotus Petal
3 Wear/Tear
1 Ashen Rider
2 Dread Return
4 Force of Will

I see that you've shifted away from Serenity, and moved on to Wear/Tear. What led to that decision? Do you bring in Wear/Tear for the same match ups that you did Serenity? Or is it more flexible, and therefore it can be used against more decks.

Thanks in advance - always love hearing your thoughts on Dredge!

[Parcher]

I see that you've shifted away from Serenity, and moved on to Wear/Tear. What led to that decision? Do you bring in Wear/Tear for the same match ups that you did Serenity? Or is it more flexible, and therefore it can be used against more decks.

Thanks in advance - always love hearing your thoughts on Dredge!

I honestly haven't been playing much. So that list has not been changed to what it probably should be. That said, yes, Wear is more flexible in general. But the switch was mainly due to Aggro Loam, and to a lesser degree Shardless, keep in Decay post board. When you're boarding Serenity against them, the odds of you getting it, being able to cast, then resolve it, and it lasting to your following upkeep are too poor.

[Oestrus]

I honestly haven't been playing much. So that list has not been changed to what it probably should be. That said, yes, Wear is more flexible in general. But the switch was mainly due to Aggro Loam, and to a lesser degree Shardless, keep in Decay post board. When you're boarding Serenity against them, the odds of you getting it, being able to cast, then resolve it, and it lasting to your following upkeep are too poor.

That's too bad. I was going to ask you to come on my stream, and teach me your ways. :laugh:

[Parcher]

That's too bad. I was going to ask you to come on my stream, and teach me your ways. :laugh:

Sorry to say, I don't even have a MODO account.

[laststepdown]

I've been on 3 fragmentize in board (until my 4th foil shows up in the mail) for a few weeks now and I have been liking it more and more. No life gain, great cmc, and hits near every hate card.

[HansoRaptor]

I've been on 3 fragmentize in board (until my 4th foil shows up in the mail) for a few weeks now and I have been liking it more and more. No life gain, great cmc, and hits near every hate card.

What's the advantage over Wear//Tear? The only thing I can see is that you only have to pay one mana to destroy an artifact, but Wear//Tear is instant speed, not stopped by chalice on one, and has fuse, which can sometimes destroy two permanents at once. Is there something I'm missing?

[laststepdown]

What's the advantage over Wear//Tear? The only thing I can see is that you only have to pay one mana to destroy an artifact, but Wear//Tear is instant speed, not stopped by chalice on one, and has fuse, which can sometimes destroy two permanents at once. Is there something I'm missing?

Dredge can't always wait around to get to 3 mana, and I don't want them to gain 4 life from natures claim. It's not like I sold my foil wear // tears. After I play a deck for a decade +, I like to try new stuff. So spending one mana and hitting the one hate card that matters without anyone gaining life seems like something worth trying out. So far, it hasn't mattered that it wasn't instant at all.

[meffeo]

Rider not needed if Lands and Show or the like aren't relevant

What would be a replacement, in case as you said Lands or Show aren't relevant? You believe another DR target might be a fine choice?

[Parcher]

What would be a replacement, in case as you said Lands or Show aren't relevant? You believe another DR target might be a fine choice?

Sure. There's a bunch. All well known. Take your pick. I just don't feel that one is needed to beat decks other than Lands.

[slave]

I like Iona or Ashen Rider myself, but then I don't even maindeck a DR anymore.


This is why I switched to Force. Its certainly not the most consistant, nor resource-light measure. But it does allow me a universal answer to hate from non-interactive decks that doesn't force me to diverge from the deck's primary gameplan.
Yeah... me too. I thought I was out, and then it pulls me back in.....
After I almost exclusively ran the blue FoW plan with Manaless Dredge about 4-5 years back and testing it thoroughly for almost a year, and since then using the blue plan with LED-Dredge both maindecking and sideboarding FoW and other blue stuff, and testing that a mind-numbing amount of times against real humans, I recently gave it a break. I went back to playing simple sides for LED-Dredge for 3 legacy meets, optimal maindeck.

And, well, the blue is something I instantly missed.
My win/lose ratio has taken a big hit, this week I went down 1-3 like a cup of cold vomit, to white hate.
FoW potentially answers a whole lot of problems, and I even had one player (who knows my preference for FoW) mention that because I had no counter it was easier to beat me (he'd just landed a RiP at the time - smug mode engaged).

My point is, I guess I just prefer the blue approach to Dredge these days, given that hate is both widespread and potent.
I'm running two amalgam currently, I find 3 is too many.

[Echonance]

Hey all!

As this is my first post in the thread - let this be both a brief self-introduction as well as a tournament report from yesterday. I've been playing Dredge religiously for a bit over a month now, caught the early end of the railbirdgaming stream with Que before playing in a 1k the day after where I finished with a pretty mediocre 3-3 record. I was surprised, however, to find that the deck actually feels very resilient to hate depending on play style and sideboard choices, and that I was very much enjoying the playstyle. Previously I did not enjoy the "dredge for 4 turns into a combo" gameplay feeling with manaless dredge but LED Dredge felt like a completely different 75. I've played legacy for a couple of years now and spend a good deal of time reading the vast majority of Established Deck threads here on thesource, so I mostly enjoy playing decks involving Cabal Therapy before or while killing opponents with some form of combo or graveyard effects.
Yesterday was a slightly smaller 6 round tournament at the same location (35 players), and the practice and familiarity that I had gained with the deck had certainly paid off in the month since the 3-3 finish.



My matchups and tournament report:
Round 1 against Urs on Affinity (1-2). Game 1 goes longer than expected, as my opponent stalls out the game by buffing a Vault Skirge to 5/5 with a Tezzeret. Ichorid and Zombie beats get the game 1 concession. Game 2 I keep a semi-strong hand, but Urs' hand was stronger with a t0 Leyline of the Void and quick aerial beats. Game 3 went similarly, with me keeping a strong turn 1 hand but again faltering to a t0 Leyline followed by a t2-t3 hardcast leyline. After he kills me with Skirges, he shows me that he had yet another Leyline in hand. Ouch.
0-1

Round 2 against Aren on B/R Reanimator (2-0). Game 1 my opponent gets an early Chancellor of the Annex into play, but I get multiple Narcomoebas into play with multiple Bridges in the grave. He soon concedes with little left in hand. Game 2 I get slowed down by multiple Faerie Macabres, but I manage to slow-dredge towards a victory while he struggles to find a suitable reanimation spell for his Elesh Norn in the graveyard. We play a third game for fun where he bounces all of my permanants with a Tidespout Tyrant.
1-1

Round 3 against Raphael on U/B/R Reanimator (2-0). Game 1 my opponent leads off with a Volcanic Island into a Ponder shuffle, then Unmasking me pitching Dismember to take my Lion's Eye Diamond. I draw a Lion's Eye Diamond and quickly beat him down while he fails to find what he needs to get an Elesh Norn into play. Game 2 my opponent keeps a stronger 7 and manages to get a Griselbrand out. I dredge a Thug instead of a Stinkweed Imp on my turn to keep the Stinkweed in the graveyard in case of an Exhume, which proves to be helpful as the next turn he draws 7 dropping himself to 4 life, before thoughtseizing himself to 2 to discard a Jin Gitaxias, and casts an Exhume precombat before swinging with Griselbrand. I offer the trade and stack my Bridge triggers, netting 2 zombies while he goes to 9. He passes turn, I swing with the zombies letting one get eaten by Jin so that he falls to 7 and cannot reanimate his Griselbrand or a potential Elesh Norn, hardcast a Golgari Thug that I use to Therapy him naming Exhume which hits while netting me a second zombie from a new Bridge from Below, and kill him the next turn when he lets himself get dropped to 1 for a Reanimate on Grave Titan. I bring back just enough creatures to hit him for lethal.
2-1

Round 4 against Oliver on Junk Aggro-Loam (1-1 went to time). Game 1 lasts a long time as my opponent kills his own Dryad Arbor repeatedly to exile Bridges and stalls out the game. I eventually manage to beat him down while holding a Marit Lage back with a single Narcomoeba. Game 2 is relatively uneventful - I get slowed badly by a Tabernacle, he quickly puts together a Marit Lage. We only have 2 minutes on the clock at the beginning of g3, I keep an aggressive 7 with no protection but he gets a Bojuka Bog into play, game goes to time.
2-1-1

Round 5 against Nico on U/W/r Miracles (2-1). Deck doesn't cooperate game 1 as I mulligan to 4 and up dredging 6 each turn without finding any real pressure in Ichorids, Narcomoebas, or Bridges. He assembles a fleet of Angels while fatesealing me with Jace, and I die. Game 2 I hit him hard when he forces my opening Careful Study, as I force back and hit an unmask, putting a Dredger in the graveyard and Unmasking him before casting a Breakthrough the next turn. He dies quickly. Game 3 he mulligans to oblivion while I get in with the 3-1 hasty horrors.
3-1-1
Round 6 win-and-in against Sebastian on Shardless Bug (2-0). I mulligan to 3. I originally thought my opponent was on D&T, which was proven false when my opponent started with a Swamp and the next turn a Wasteland + Jitte, however he draws no more lands for the next 5 or so turns while I manage to hit pressure on my first few dredges. Game 2 I force a t1 Deathrite and get a turn ahead of his followup Deathrite, he eventually has to beat in with a Shardless Agent equipped with Jitte to kill his own Agent for the Bridge exile trigger, but it isn't enough to slow me down.
4-1-1

Top 8 against Pascal on Miracles (2-1). We fight a hard game 1 where my board is repeatedly ravaged by Terminuses thanks to an early Top, but I play conservatively enough to maintain a modicum of pressure. We get into a situation where his last remaining card in hand is a Predict which he uses to Terminus me during combat, but second mainphase I play out a Thug which I use to Therapy him blind-naming Monastery Mentor which HITS, and also gets me a Narcomoeba back on top. He doesn't manage to climb back into the game after having lost the Mentor. Game 2 I rip all relevant interaction out of his hand, and my he goes to 17 life before I return all 3 Ichorids and my Ashen Ghoul into play to swing for 18 while he only has a tundra and a untapped top with no known cards on top, but he rips the blind Terminus to steal the game back. He apologizes multiple times for the blind Terminus. Game 3 I manage to crawl to a victory by returning 1 Ichorid at a time.

Top 4 against Gabriel on BUG Midrange (2-1). Game 1 is rough, I manage to get 30 cards in the graveyard off of a single Stinkweed Imp but I find no 2nd dredger and no narcomoebas to get Bridge triggers going before he starts exiling my relevant cards with a DRS. Game 2 I get there with a single Ichorid and Bridge. Game 3 I mull to 5, but keep a solid hand. He plays a t1 Deathrite, and I careful study and offer him a Golgari Grave-Troll, which he attempts to eat with DRS on his turn but I quickly cycle a Street Wraith to take the firm advantage, which I then leverage on my turn with a Lion's Eye Diamond into Faithless Looting. I quickly vomit a few zombies into play, which his deathrites are barely too slow to stall.

Finals against Nicolas on Academy Rector Nic-Fit (0-2). My luck runs out and I manage to make 0 zombies over the two games as Game 1 I get dropped by a quick Omniscience into Mentor + Lingering Souls, and Game 2 I have a rough opener while he gets a Deathrite active on me and surgicals my Narcomoebas. I dredge for a few turns for fun and lose to having 0 cards left in deck.

My decklist is shown second here:
http://blog.gameplace.ch/legacy-12-03-17/

Overall I was very happy with the 2nd place finish, especially having crawled back from the round 1 loss. I had a lot of unlucky and lucky games over the course of the day which seemed to balance out pretty well in the end. I have little else to say other than that I'll definitely continue playing the deck, as it seems to be performing for me and most importantly is a lot of fun for me to play.

May your dredges keep hitting gas and hope to chat with you all more in the thread over the coming months! Thanks especially to Que whose decklist I mostly copied before making my own touches, and whose advice greatly helped me learn to pilot the deck.

[meffeo]

Ashen Ghoul

Nice report and congratz man, really liked that Old school techy. Did they perform well? What about the Forces? You think that two copies is a fine choice?

I got a pretty big tournament in the next days and am tempted to run a list similar to yours, but I already miss the Firestorms...

[Echonance]

Nice report and congratz man, really liked that Old school techy. Did they perform well? What about the Forces? You think that two copies is a fine choice?

I got a pretty big tournament in the next days and am tempted to run a list similar to yours, but I already miss the Firestorms...

Thanks a lot! Ashen Ghoul neither over- nor underperformed during the day, but I'm inclined to say that I would cut the one from the mainboard as the real use is for threat diversification against potential Surgical -> Snap Surgical out of the board. Would probably just go up to 4 Thugs. Amalgam constantly overperformed but I believe 2 is the proper number.

Sideboard Force of Will constantly overperformed, and I'd like to go up to 3 in the board for the next time. Both makes me feel as though I'm advantaged in combo matchups and feels great when playing on the draw. Countering a deathrite got me to the Finals - countering a Force got me to the win and in.

[meffeo]

Thanks a lot! Ashen Ghoul neither over- nor underperformed during the day, but I'm inclined to say that I would cut the one from the mainboard as the real use is for threat diversification against potential Surgical -> Snap Surgical out of the board. Would probably just go up to 4 Thugs. Amalgam constantly overperformed but I believe 2 is the proper number.

Sideboard Force of Will constantly overperformed, and I'd like to go up to 3 in the board for the next time. Both makes me feel as though I'm advantaged in combo matchups and feels great when playing on the draw. Countering a deathrite got me to the Finals - countering a Force got me to the win and in.

I exacly thought the same. I will probably even add the 4th Force and shave some numbers of Petals.

Some impressions will follow.

[slave]

Amalgam constantly overperformed but I believe 2 is the proper number.
I agree - 2 Prized Amalgam feels like the right number to me if you're on the FoW plan. That single card has serious game against miracles.

[Echonance]

My list from the past weekend was featured on MTGGoldfish's weekly legacy article along with shoutouts/acknowledgement to Parcher and Que:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-march-legacy-challenge-and-other-tournaments
Still missing the 4x Bridge from Below from the list but that should be pretty self-explanatory.

I liked the author's list at the end but I'm reluctant to go all the way up to 4 FoW despite being happy with moving up to 3.

Have any of you had some good results recently? :)

[owerbart]

Hi. I've never played Dredge before in my life but since I have a playset of LEDs and Therapies without being used at all I got Echonance list and started to playtest some games online. Dredge looks fun to play :)

My main concern, is, I still don't own the Rainbow Lands in paper, so would it be possible to have a Dual-Lands based manabase? I have Underground Seas, Volcs and Tundras to build it with. Could it be possible to build a manabase with them until I acquire the Rainbows?

Thanks for the help.

[Echonance]

Hi. I've never played Dredge before in my life but since I have a playset of LEDs and Therapies without being used at all I got Echonance list and started to playtest some games online. Dredge looks fun to play :)

My main concern, is, I still don't own the Rainbow Lands in paper, so would it be possible to have a Dual-Lands based manabase? I have Underground Seas, Volcs and Tundras to build it with. Could it be possible to build a manabase with them until I acquire the Rainbows?

Thanks for the help.

One of the older/more experienced dredge players in this thread can probably answer this better than I could - But in my view the rainbow land manabase is strictly better no matter the way the deck is built. I do think that it would still be playable and in many cases work just fine, but there WILL be situations where the deck will suffer without the access to the 3 main colors (4 if boarding Wear//Tear or serenity). Any chance that you own any copies of Undiscovered Paradise however? Can even brew around it with Bloodghast (and maybe a couple Dakmor Salvages) but I haven't had any real success figuring out how to put that together yet. But I'll play some games with some attempts at a dualland manabase and see if I can figure out a playable method in the meantime.
Also, luckily for us Dredge players, Rainbows are very very cheap at least compared to any other real manabase in Legacy. So hopefully you wouldn't be on the duals for long :)

[gibbousm]

One of the older/more experienced dredge players in this thread can probably answer this better than I could - But in my view the rainbow land manabase is strictly better no matter the way the deck is built. I do think that it would still be playable and in many cases work just fine, but there WILL be situations where the deck will suffer without the access to the 3 main colors (4 if boarding Wear//Tear or serenity). Any chance that you own any copies of Undiscovered Paradise however? Can even brew around it with Bloodghast (and maybe a couple Dakmor Salvages) but I haven't had any real success figuring out how to put that together yet. But I'll play some games with some attempts at a dualland manabase and see if I can figure out a playable method in the meantime.
Also, luckily for us Dredge players, Rainbows are very very cheap at least compared to any other real manabase in Legacy. So hopefully you wouldn't be on the duals for long :)

So in the Maindeck you have 3 different colors of spells to cast, postboard that frequently goes up to 4 or 5 colors. Because once you start Dredging most additional spells cast from your hand beside the initial discard outlet will accelerate you, but typically aren't necessary to win. Dredge is a land light deck because so much of the deck is devoted to the Dredge engine and how you really only need to get a Dredger in the yard once. Because of this you want your lands to cast as many of your spells as possible, increasing your odds of having Dredger + Castable discard outlet in your opening hand. Cephalid Coliseum, while it can only cast Blue spells, is more of an additional loot spell than a land.

If you're running a Fetch/Dual manabases you run the risk of dredging over all your fetchable lands and because Duals can only make 2 colors instead of 5, the chances of having an opening hand unable to cast any discard outlets increases. There are plenty of great looking hands I've had to send back because my only land was a Coliseum, but my discard outlets were not Blue. This problem would be compounded by not running Rainbow lands.

If you really want to run Duals until you get Rainbows, you're probably better off cutting Faithless Lootings and LEDS for Hapless Researchers and a bigger Dread Return package and going straight Blue/Black. There's an old decklist by Alexander Shearer from a few years ago you might want to look at.


TL;DR: You get a bunch of consistency issues and have more opening hands you need to mulligan when you run Duals instead of Rainbows.

[owerbart]

@Echonance and @gibbousm thanks for the quick answers :)

I guess I can spend a few bucks on the rainbows. Looking forward to play some dredge :)

[Que]

My decklist is shown second here:
http://blog.gameplace.ch/legacy-12-03-17/

Overall I was very happy with the 2nd place finish, especially having crawled back from the round 1 loss. I had a lot of unlucky and lucky games over the course of the day which seemed to balance out pretty well in the end. I have little else to say other than that I'll definitely continue playing the deck, as it seems to be performing for me and most importantly is a lot of fun for me to play.

May your dredges keep hitting gas and hope to chat with you all more in the thread over the coming months! Thanks especially to Que whose decklist I mostly copied before making my own touches, and whose advice greatly helped me learn to pilot the deck.

Yo great report and congrats on the finish! And thanks for the kind words dude. I'm more glad others are having success with a similar list more than anything.

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Questions for all.
So what do you guys board out for Unmask?
Do you board in Unmask alongside FOW or alongside Petals? These cards are lost card advantage and require some 2 for 1s. If you have to mulligan at all these feel incredibly bad.
Do you board in Unmask both games 2 and 3? Idk how much I like them on the draw.
Against what decks are you boarding in Unmask?
Against what decks are you boarding in FOW?

[HansoRaptor]

Questions for all.
1 So what do you guys take out for Unmask?
2 Do you board in Unmask alongside FOW or alongside Petals? These cards are lost card advantage and require some 2 for 1s. If you have to mulligan at all these feel incredibly bad.
3 Do you board in Unmask both games 2 and 3? Idk how much I like them on the draw.
4 Against what decks are you boarding in Unmask?
5 Against what decks are you boarding in FOW?

1 I board in Unmask mostly against combo decks that I believe to be faster than me and D&T. If it is a combo deck, I board out 1x Dread Return and 1-2x Prized Amalgam.
2 If I board in Unmask I don't board them alongside Petals. Petals and Unmask is too much card disadvantage, while also reducing the number of black cards I can exile. I don't play FoW in my 75.
3 If I board them in g2, I will also board them in g3 (if they were useful to begin with).
4 See 1
5 See 2, don't have it in my 75.

Regarding Unmask, I would also like to know against which decks you guys bring it in. Card feels sometimes amazing and sometimes utter trash.

[mexico]

new to the forum and thought id see what suggestions were out there

4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
1 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below
2 Cephalid Coliseum
2 City of Brass
4 Mana Confluence
4 Gemstone Mine

Sideboard:

1 Dread Return
1 Darkblast
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Firestorm
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Nature's Claim
2 Serenity

current list I am running but hasn't been as effective since I took out putrid imps, similar to list i ran at gp Columbus to 31st, probably adding the imps back in and considering adding a memory's journey to side board

[Que]

1 I board in Unmask mostly against combo decks that I believe to be faster than me and D&T. If it is a combo deck, I board out 1x Dread Return and 1-2x Prized Amalgam.
2 If I board in Unmask I don't board them alongside Petals. Petals and Unmask is too much card disadvantage, while also reducing the number of black cards I can exile. I don't play FoW in my 75.
3 If I board them in g2, I will also board them in g3 (if they were useful to begin with).
4 See 1
5 See 2, don't have it in my 75.

Regarding Unmask, I would also like to know against which decks you guys bring it in. Card feels sometimes amazing and sometimes utter trash.

That makes sense. Against combo I normally board in the Petals alongside my extra DR and target for the situation. But as you've mentioned its not very beneficial running both Unmask and Petals due to the sheer amount of card disadvantage. For that reason I tend not to board in the Unmasks as I generally speed up my deck with petals and extra breakthrough. Not to mention they can still Brainstorm in response if you're on the draw.

Ultimately I'm trying to determine whether I should continue to run petals or swap them for FOW. The notion being that I'm boarding in FOW against the other combo decks where I would have boarded in the petals. If we can agree that having the FOW makes the deck more versatile in the general meta then I'll maybe run them again.


@Mexico. The main deck looks fine. I would consider ditching 1 street wraith and adding an extra Coliseum with the current configuration you have. Its a free draw 3 that will almost never get countered unless they have stifle. Its one of the better cards in the deck imo.

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Played in a GPT last Saturday. Went 4-2 in 6 rounds of swiss 50 players. My matchups were as follows:

Round 1: 4c Loam, 1-0

G1: I dredge him out.
G2: He double Leylines me
G3: He opens with Mox Diamond, Mox Diamond Scavenging Ooze. I Ancient Grudge one of his Diamonds away and he never picked up extra green sources before dying to my steady stream of Ichorids, Amalgams, Narcos and friends.

Round 2: Enchantress, 1-1

G1: I dredge him out
G2: RIP
G3: Opens with Leyline of Sanctity. Drops a Solitary Confinement with Sterling Grove to protect it and I lose.

Round 3: Esperblade, 2-1
G1: I dredge him out
G2: He doesn't have much in the form of grave hate and meets a similar demise game 2.

Round 4: Grixis Delver, 3-1
Don't remember much games 1 and 2, but game 3 I'm on the play and I unmask a Nihil Spellbomb out of his hand and therapy away his brainstorm leaving his hand pretty anemic. I'm able to start my engine and "draw" more gas than he does.

Round 5: B/R Reanimator, 3-2 What I consider the worst matchup that isn't Enchantress lol.
G1: Reveals Chancellor and reanimates a Griselbrand on turn 1...
G2: I don't have a particularly strong hand, but I'm able to drop him to 1 life before he goes nuts and drops sneak attack dropping a G daddy and getting back in the game.
They were prizing to top 10 so I decided to play out the last round and see what happens.

Round 6: Sneak & Show, 4-2
G1: Dredge him out.
G2: My hand is Coliseum, LED, Breakthrough, Bridge, Bridge, Ashen Rider. I my turn I draw a land. I drop a land and LED and pass it back. Next turn I draw another bridge. I cast Breakthrough were X=1 to keep the Ashen rider in my hand. He FOWs my Breakthrough. On his turn he casts show and tell. He drops Emrakul and I drop my Ashen Rider exiling his Emmy. I beat him down for a few turns and keep my life total above 15. He manages to assemble the combo again via Sneak attack and swings with emmy. In response to the Annihilator trigger I Sac'd my LED binned my Bridges then sac'd my Ashen rider and swung on my turn to kill him while I was at 1 life.

I ended up in 12th out of a field of 50. I felt pretty good throughout the day outside of those rough matchups. I'm definitely feeling a lot of the splash damage from B/R Reanimator though which is concerning, but understandable. Its definitely a deck to fear and for good reason. I'm not sure what that means for Dredge atm. I don't particularly enjoy jamming Leylines, but will see..

[wsurugby10]

I noticed that some Vintage Dredge decks are playing this as their sideboard.

Sideboard (15)
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Vampire Hexmage


Is there any value in doing this in Legacy? It does get around graveyard hate. Thoughts?

[HansoRaptor]

I noticed that some Vintage Dredge decks are playing this as their sideboard.

Sideboard (15)
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Vampire Hexmage


Is there any value in doing this in Legacy? It does get around graveyard hate. Thoughts?

Some time ago, I was thinking why Vintage was playing Dark Depths in the Sideboard and Legacy not. My conclusion as a non-Vintage player (so take what I say with a grain of salt) was the following:
As you know, Vintage Dredge plays Bazaar of Baghdad and Petrified Field as its only mana source. By doing so they have only used 8 of their deck-slots for their mana sources and draw spells (see Bazaar of Baghdad), while Legacy Dredge plays 13 lands and about 10 Draw spells (taking them together 23 deck-slots).
Now if Vintage Dredge boards in their 15 card Sideboard, they have naturally Petrified Field in the mainboard, which can be quite handy when it comes to return a destroyed (or milled) Dark Depths and Thespian's Stage. Since I have zero experience playing Vintage, I have no idea how strong Petrified Field is in the Dark Depths Sideboard plan, but I can imagine it being really strong. And if this is true, we have the obvious problem of it missing in the Legacy version (and it does not make any sense to play it in Legacy since it can not be used to cast any of our ~10 draw spells).
Another thing to mention is the inclusion of Serum Powder in the Vintage version. It makes taking a mulligan easier, which can also help when it comes to playing Dark Depths game 2. At least that's what I'm expecting.
Having said all that, I'm not even sure if sideboarding Dark Depths in Vintage is even worth to begin with. I can't imagine it being fast enough, but perhaps some Vintage players can give some insight on this one.

Do I think it is worth trying out in Legacy? Sure why not, perhaps I will try some matches online later on. Other input on this topic would be welcome, there are probably many things I have not considered yet.

[mistercakes]

i've tried it before. it's not very good. i would recommend if you are hellbent on trying it to try with something like 3 loam and 4 crop rotation over the hexmage plan, although hexmage is kind of cool with bridge. at least this will give you some more consistency.

the other thing is that dredge is pretty good even through graveyard hate, you don't always have to find an alternative strategy.

[slave]

I tried the Dark Depths alternate side idea a while back. I couldn't get any consistency out of it, and even when I did get it to work, Terminus.

[ChemicalBurns]

Ever since Embalm was mentioned as a mechanic I was expecting something possibly playable to pop up... An Ashen Ghoul-ish card could be be interesting. And so we have a cat:

http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/sacredcat.jpg

The fact the Embalm makes tokens is a sad thing thing due to them not synergising with Bridge.

Nonetheless, thoughts? On this card, or what we'd like to see from Embalm?

[HansoRaptor]

Ever since Embalm was mentioned as a mechanic I was expecting something possibly playable to pop up... An Ashen Ghoul-ish card could be be interesting. And so we have a cat:

The fact the Embalm makes tokens is a sad thing thing due to them not synergising with Bridge.

Nonetheless, thoughts? On this card, or what we'd like to see from Embalm?

The card is cute but it's no where near the level of Ashen Ghoul.

Dredge wants a creature that has an Embalm cost of 0 (in addition of being not a weak card), which I'm pretty sure won't happen.

[Elpresidente]

@Que

Looks like you got what you wanted in Insult // Injury

Back half is 2r deal to damage to target creature and 2 to its controller

[slave]

Ever since Embalm was mentioned as a mechanic I was expecting something possibly playable to pop up... An Ashen Ghoul-ish card could be be interesting. And so we have a cat:
http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/sacredcat.jpg
I don't think I'll be playing this one, but I'm curious to see what else the block turns up.
A graveyard-themed set has me paying attention, but so far all I'm seeing is luke-warm gravehate, rather than graveyard abusing cards.

[mistercakes]

i think embalm is almost always going to be worse than unearth as they don't trigger narcomoeba or prized amalgam, but let's see what else shows up.

[Oestrus]

This person has gone 5-0 three times in the last two weeks.

I'm fascinated by some of their card choices.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/602159#online

[mistercakes]

I think his list just goes to show how powerful dredge is game one and he must have some good runs with his sb cards.

[jimmythegreek]

Holy shit, the creature on Dread Return is Mindslicer?! Anybody going to Worcester tomorrow?

[ChemicalBurns]

Speaking of interesting lists... There's been a guy in Japan running a Breakthrough-less list here:

http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD26017S/

[Oestrus]

Speaking of interesting lists... There's been a guy in Japan running a Breakthrough-less list here:

http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD26017S/

I don't hate it. I've gone as low as 2 Breakthrough before, with 2 in the SB.

I think if you play Dredge more like a combo deck, then Probe + Therapy is where it's at.

I approve!

[Que]

@Que

Looks like you got what you wanted in Insult // Injury

Back half is 2r deal to damage to target creature and 2 to its controller

Its just not good enough. 3 mana is a tall order to ask out of this deck. At that point I would rather play Conflagrate, its a shame it costs 2 Red. That or Crippling Fatigue, but I'm not even sure thats good enough either. I doubt there will ever be a burn spell with a cheap flashback cost.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I went to 3 tournaments recently all GPTs. I managed to top 8 two of them, but unfortunately I got knocked out in the first round of top 8 each time, once losing to Infect (along with poor play from yours truly) and the other to a bad matchup in Sneak & Show. The list I'm sure is the same, but just for reference here it is:http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15140&d=291743&f=LE

I was trying out a different type of sideboard and its been ok. I have not used FOW as much as I should probably be using it so I still have to playlets some more with it.

Small recaps of my top 8 matches;

Against Infect game 1 I was able to do my thing, however, he landed a turn 2 Blighted Agent and I failed to hit any Cabal Therapies which would have allowed me to name Invigorate and stop him from ending me the following turn. Game 2 I completely have a brain meltdown. This game he's already surgical'd away my Golgari Grave Trolls leaving me with lonely Thug. I have an LED in play and I have a breakthrough. I cast the breakthrough, retain priority and sacrifice LED to float red mana, he then casts Spell Pierce confidently on the breakthrough and I actually thought at the time that he was so sure he was countering it that it was FOW when it really wasn't. I could have paid for the Pierce with the mana I had floating and gone on my way to bringing that game back.. but I punted really bad.

Against Sneak and Show he's able to counter most of my gas via FOW, Pierce, Pierce, and then a single S&T made it elementary from there. Game 2 I mull down to 5. I have combo in the form of LED, Breakthrough, and Golgari Grave Troll, however, I get completely punished when I try to dredge and get hit with a timely Fearie Macabre which essentially blows me out as the troll was my only dredger.

[jimmythegreek]

What has been the consensus on Prized Amalgam without forces in the side? In other words, how have peoples experiences been with amalgam in general? I run four ichorids at the moment with four breakthrough ( no side-board force ). I have been considering swapping out an ichorid and breakthrough for two amalgam, i have yet to test this configuration and would like to hear others experiences with the card.

[HansoRaptor]

What has been the consensus on Prized Amalgam without forces in the side? In other words, how have peoples experiences been with amalgam in general? I run four ichorids at the moment with four breakthrough ( no side-board force ). I have been considering swapping out an ichorid and breakthrough for two amalgam, i have yet to test this configuration and would like to hear others experiences with the card.

I really love two Prized Amalgams in the mainboard. If you hit them early it just feels like an amazing start into an easy win. I tried them for some time and never went back.
I don't quite like playing a playset of Ichorid and Breakthrough. I always felt that I did not have enough black creature cards in my graveyard to bring all Ichorids onto the battlefield. And getting them extracted felt even more bad. Having Breakthrough as your only draw/discard spell without LED felt really awkward so I trimmed them to three copies.

[jimmythegreek]

I really love two Prized Amalgams in the mainboard. If you hit them early it just feels like an amazing start into an easy win. I tried them for some time and never went back.
I don't quite like playing a playset of Ichorid and Breakthrough. I always felt that I did not have enough black creature cards in my graveyard to bring all Ichorids onto the battlefield. And getting them extracted felt even more bad. Having Breakthrough as your only draw/discard spell without LED felt really awkward so I trimmed them to three copies.
Thankk you for the reply. I can get behind three ichorid, having a looting effect with breakthrough in your opener is usually just bananas though. Breakthrough for 1 to draw a card is often really good too. Maybe i'll swap an ichorid for amalgam, thanks again.

[Oestrus]

What has been the consensus on Prized Amalgam without forces in the side? In other words, how have peoples experiences been with amalgam in general? I run four ichorids at the moment with four breakthrough ( no side-board force ). I have been considering swapping out an ichorid and breakthrough for two amalgam, i have yet to test this configuration and would like to hear others experiences with the card.

With Surgical Extraction being the most popular GY hate right now, I think diversifying our threats is not a bad idea. I'm currently on a Quadlaser build with 3 Amalgam in the SB, and have considered replacing one of the Ichorid in the main with an Amalgam.

[HansoRaptor]

With Surgical Extraction being the most popular GY hate right now, I think diversifying our threats is not a bad idea. I'm currently on a Quadlaser build with 3 Amalgam in the SB, and have considered replacing one of the Ichorid in the main with an Amalgam.

If you're scared of Surgical Extraction, perhaps playing something entirely different from Ichorid could help. If you get your Ichorids and Narcos extracted, you need another way to trigger the Amalgams. So perhaps playing some number of Ashen Ghoul or Bloodghast in the Sideboard could help diversifying the threats, but I would instead just play some number of Street Wraiths (and or Ground Seal).

[Oestrus]

If you're scared of Surgical Extraction, perhaps playing something entirely different from Ichorid could help. If you get your Ichorids and Narcos extracted, you need another way to trigger the Amalgams. So perhaps playing some number of Ashen Ghoul or Bloodghast in the Sideboard could help diversifying the threats, but I would instead just play some number of Street Wraiths (and or Ground Seal).

To be fair, if I'm taking a Surgical on the chin twice, I've probably already peaced out.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Parcher]

Beat Storm twice. Once, in a match that literally was four turns. Game one, I won the roll, and he scooped after I went off with Therapy on the stack. Game two, he won turn one on the play. Game three, I went off turn one, and he passed back with an empty hand, as I didn't hit the Iona until my turn two.

The second Storm match I will just post from another thread:

I won game one by turn three. Nothing special. Game two, he thought a really long time about his keep, and went land, go. I had the ever popular Land, LED, Breakthrough, and Flashback Looting, which all resolved. Narco triggers on the stack, he Extracted them. Sigh. He then goes, land, go again. Hmm...

My upkeep, triggers on the stack, Extirpate your Ichorids. Oh, that's what you were thinking about keeping. He looks through my now 8 card library, and says, "is that it, dude? Do you even have a way to win now?(I had sided out PImps)" Yes. Yes I do.

I use the one Journey I sided in against IGG and Cabal Rit on my upkeep to return three lands. I draw for the turn, play the land I drew(I had four left already,which I guess looked bad to him), and pass. He Brainstorms and says go.

I say, "I'll Dredge". Whaaaaa?

I dredge Thug, and play it. Sac Thug to Therapy you, get four Bridge triggers. Trigger Thug, put it back on top of my library. Name Cabal Ritual. Sac zombies to DR Iona. Name Black. Go. He does some irrelevant stuff with Blue spells. Next turn, draw Thug. Repeat. Swing. Repeat.

GG. Nice Extractions, brah.

Never quit.

[ChemicalBurns]

Hello everyone, just came off a League 5-0 with an interesting list I was toying with. It takes inspiration from the Japanese lists featuring Probe over Breakthrough; seems heinous, but I've really appreciated Probe boosting up percentages against combo by making Therapies so precise - I've kept some interesting hands featuring things like Probe/Therapy/Narcomoeba, just because I can shred apart my opponent's hand. It also, of course, helps with accelerating Dredges, but not as much as Breakthrough.

Not saying this is particularly better and I certainly ran well, fighting five non-blue decks.

Lands: (12)
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Mana Confluence
4 Gemstone Mine

Dredgers: (12)
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

Discard: (13)
1 Putrid Imp
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study

Disruption: (8)
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy

Free Creatures: (13)
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
2 Prized Amalgam
4 Bridge from Below

DR Package: (2)
1 Dread Return
1 Dragonlord Kolaghan

Sideboard: (15)
3 Firestorm
3 Wear/Tear
4 Lotus Petal
1 Ashen Rider
1 Dread Return
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

Quick summaries:

Burn (2-0)
- g1 keep a zero lander with a Probe, Guide feeds me one and then we stall the board until we lethal him with the crew.
- g2 I have 2x LED and no land, ready to slow Dredge. Draw Looting and I'm off to the races. My opponent Faeries wrong and then I can Dread Return a big Grave-Troll, which stalls the board until I win.

Nic Fit (2-1)
- g1 Don't crack LED in response to my Probe because I'm dumb. End up slow Dredging off a LED, eventually hit enough gas to get there and massacre his hand.
- g2 Have on the draw LED + Coliseum. End up thinking I don't have enough cards for Thresh after a Thoughtseize and miss an extra Dredging off a Looting as a result. I'm dumb. End up whiffing on creatures a fair bit and then get Scoozed.
- g3 Kept Probe/Therapy/Narco with no Dredger. Ballsy. End up shredding his weak hand with a Bridge in yard too, beating him down with a single Zombie while I flood and my opponent does not much.

Big Eldrazi (2-1)
- It's Joe Lossett!
- g1 I Probe + Therapy away his Dynamos, TKS and then blind hit an Ulamog. Nice.
- g2 I get Leylined and can't find Wear // Tear.
- g3 he mulls into oblivion.

Maverick (2-1)
- g1 Mull into zero lander, hoping to hit land and start on Pimp. Don't and die. DDD is too slow.
- g2 Have a crazy one with Study, Therapy, Petal and LED. Start first turn with a blind Therapy, and then next turn get the ball rolling and kill him.
- And then game three, make a turn one Elesh Norn with LED + Looting. Well.

4c Loam (2-1)
- g1 He has nothing relevant and we Dragonlord him.
- g2 we could've beaten the turn two Scooze. We'd mulled to five and had to dig with Loot spells for a Dredger. At one stage I end up pitching a Petal in hand, but if I didn't, I would've had exactly Threshold to crack Coliseum and go nuts while my opponent was tapped out from Scooze, as my second Looting spell cast after Scooze hit play found Thug and Stinky. Very good lesson learnt.
- g3 My opponent has no Leyline, I have study into pitching my Dredgers. He has turn one Scooze. I break Coliseum and ruin his life. Ashen Rider eats Scooze and we 5-0.

Most of these matchups I just sideboarded for speed (add LEDs, trim some Ickies, Amalgam, Pimp etc.), but I often trimmed Probes post-board when I needed to add Wear // Tear or Firestorm (especially since these were often Chalice/Thalia MUs). Interested to hear people's opinions of the sideboarding, I'm definitely still very much a student of the deck and have lots and lots to learn.

Thanks!