[Deck] Dredge

[dredgekid]

I think he top 16ed so his list should be up a bit later. I think JVL said he had 16 lands main.

Literally did a double take when the announcers said that. Was rolling when he EOT enlightened tutored for the stone. his opponent had to be on permatilt.

[dredgekid]

Here's Daniel Rude's list from SCGDM

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=45371

[dredgekid]

Right, understood.

The only reason I bring up the two is because most lists I see on here aren't willing to give the deck more than one MD DR target - so do you go for more busted enabling or do you go for the throat? Does that part come down to preference?

Thanks for the tidbit on Sun Titan. That was exactly the reason I was asking - LED is still a prime target for both, but Witness gives you access to Breakthrough. You might not always have the mana to play it, but at least she gives you that option. And both lands/LED, the two things you will be returning with Sun Titan, can also be grabbed by her and played for free. She's also hard-castable (not really a true selling point, but you know how weird those G2s and G3s can get).

The problem with witness is it is forcing us to cast things rather than giving us free things. there's no guarantee we can actually cast the breakthrough (and at that point, we really won't need to) Titan can also be a finisher in a pinch.

I think it depends on whether you are playing quad or combo. obviously in quad you don't play any targets (if you are even playing DR). Combo, I firmly believe, should be playing a draw-enabling DR target. I prefer sphinx, simply because it digs deeper than titan does and if I'm playing combo, I'm going for that combo kill. Titan is probably a bit better with zealot because you need so many more resources to win with zealot, and titan can act as another kill card as well as an enabler. I think, however, sphinx is 100% superior to titan in the flayer build, since you can afford to exhaust more resources to flip your deck over and still be able to combo out and win.

[K1w1]

Griselbrand

Legendary Creature - Demon
Flying, lifelink
Pay 7 life: Draw seven cards.
7/7

What do you think about this?
I think draw 7 cards is a bit too much, like win more. But sounds interesting.

[SHABOOGS]

Griselbrand

Legendary Creature - Demon
Flying, lifelink
Pay 7 life: Draw seven cards.
7/7

What do you think about this?
I think draw 7 cards is a bit too much, like win more. But sounds interesting.It's a Sphinx of Lost Truths on steroids for your FKZ package but I think the draw 7 is too much. Especially after a resolved draw spell or two (c/o Faithless Looting).

[Izor]

Well, it's another big dude we don't need.

[Final Fortune]

That's pretty solid, the effect may be overkill but you're getting a 7/7 evasive threat out of the deal compared to Cephalid Sage etc.

[jares]

It looks to me that after getting Griselbrand in play, you'll pretty much have your entire deck in the graveyard, and you'll have access to ALL the possible plays that can be done with whatever is in your deck. It seems to me that this is the first Dread Return target that can pretty much guarantee that we'll have access to our entire deck (minus a few cards left in the deck that should keep you alive) as soon as it gets into play (in comparison, Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur required us to reach the End Step to be able to access the entire deck).

Having said that, given the presence of Cabal Therapy in our deck and everything else that we use to win, it will be very unlikely for our opponents to be able to recover from this projected board and hand position.

Is this creature a win-more card? Is it a better/worse creature than the ones that we've already been using? These arguments can go either way for now. I do know, though, that Griselbrand has the distinction that I've noted above, and it's a very powerful distinction.

Cheers,
jares

[Final Fortune]

Uh, holy fuck, you can resolve the draw trigger twice on the same turn ... I'd say that's definitely your deck in the yard.

[K1w1]

Yes, that's why i posted it.
I saw it today in the morning at facebook and said: awesome!
7 life is a bit much in some match-ups, but you just win the game with it. ( if you dont fizzle in finding a Dredger)
So, here is the picture in addition to the written stuff above:
http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Griselbrand-Avacyn-Restored-Spoiler.jpg

[HokusSchmokus]

R&D fucked it up badly. This guy should have cmc 7. Seriously, symmetry anyone?
Still, I don't think this is a playable. Seems intruiging, but I already see myself being dead because of it.
On a side not, I Top4ed a tournament in my area with Flayer. I am very happy with my list as it is. Going to write a report this evening or tomorrow.
If you are bored, you can ask K1w1 how:
a) I lucked out heavily in our mirror match (G1 that is)
b) I punted the quarterfinals in a almost epic fashion. Countless misplays on both sides and as I looked to K1w1, he seemed to be banging his head against the table:P

PS: Nic Fit seems to be a more favourable matchup for Flayer lists.

Edit:Never mind, I thought you had to tap him...AWMAHGAWD I'm gonna have some fun with this guy

[K1w1]

On a side not, I Top4ed a tournament in my area with Flayer. I am very happy with my list as it is. Going to write a report this evening or tomorrow.
If you are bored, you can ask K1w1 how:
a) I lucked out heavily in our mirror match (G1 that is)
b) I punted the quarterfinals in a almost epic fashion. Countless misplays on both sides and as I looked to K1w1, he seemed to be banging his head against the table:P

PS: Nic Fit seems to be a more favourable matchup for Flayer lists.

Yes, thanks for pointing out, that i lost against you :D ( I went 2-3 -.- )
This was the scenario:
I'm on the draw with Coliseum,LED,some Dredgers and he plays a land into looting, go.
I draw a coliseum and think a bit.I came to the conclusion, if he can't kill me next turn, i win with double coliseum + LED, i play coliseum, go. He wins with flayer in this turn...

And to the Top 8: He is right. "he seemed to be banging his head against the table:P"

Congratz to Top 4, but how did you lose against High Tide in the quarterfinals? :mad:

I had nothing important in my matches:
2:0 Burn
0:2 Dredge ( 72 cards mirror HokusSchmokus )
2:0 Dredge.... ( Felidae without DR + Flayer )
1:2 Canadian
1:2 Canadian ( 3. Game lose against TOPDECK Crypt!! )

[HokusSchmokus]

He was topdecking a meditate with lethal on my board.and no draw spells ,just tides and a turnabout in hand( he extracted my therapies). But to be fair the start was quite a fight and we both were pretry crippled as a result,so if I have just two moebas he has way too much time for me to win.
Also wasn,t it a 74 card mirror?:p But what I meant with having "lucked out" was that I killed you while having almost nothing in my yard and two Narcomoebas in my hand)

Btw guys, I am quite psyched because there will be a return to ravnica! I hope for some Golgari Goodies:)

[I am the brainwasher]

Btw guys, I am quite psyched because there will be a return to ravnica!
... till then you might consider terrorizing people with that brand new demon-douche.
Gsus I need to dust off this deck.

[K1w1]

Ah the Moebas...
I would insult you, but they are shown in stars :wink:
Joking..
I thought 74, too. But you played 1 more citadel, i played 1 more journey.
But i think we should get back to the topic.

[HokusSchmokus]

Okay then:
How awesome will be Griselband-Guy in a Combo infested Meta! If you are careful about Chants, you win against almost any combo deck on the spot when you DR him. Good Stuff!
Note that Sadistic Hypnotist is quite good in this slot, too.
ATM though I would consider Griselbrand superiour because it is way much fun to do, does effectively the same and disheartens opponents like there's no tomorrow!

[K1w1]

The thing is, there are so many big dudes which you can reanimate with dread return. For example:
elesh against mirror/elves/goblins
iona against combo/mono-decks
etc..

Flayer is actually the best, IMO! You have to find a big dude who wins for you without that you need other targets from your sideboard for some matchups.
You know i had Sadistic Hypnotist in my board. Never boarded him in. I thought for a while and came to the conclusion, " hey, flayer is better ".

That's why you actually don't need a target in your sideboard, imo.
And in addition i think Griselbrand can be the same like Flayer ( But i prefer Flayer, atm )

[Gui]

I believe Griselbrand is one of the best DR targets printed for this deck in a long time. The only thing I'm not sure is about the 7 life cost, because you could be under pressure for some reason, but other than that, it will win the game on the spot most of the time. And with the benefit of being huge, flying, gaining life, and feeding Ichorids. And it even gives Moat some O.K. out.

Also, it's less situational than Flayer, although Flayer can win on some situations where Griselbrand can't, Grisel will only require you to pop a single DR to win the game, pretty much no drawback. Oh, and I think Griselbrand + Flayer is the new Sphinx + Flamekin.

[Digital Devil]

Well, it's another big dude we don't need.
When I first saw the card, I instantly thought about it kicking Iona out of the equation: she is auto win against Burn, but Griselbrand has lifelink, and is not easy to kill; Iona is good against Spiral Tide, but Griselbrand can mill my deck and find all 4x Therapies to rape my opponent's hand; same with ANT, except I don't lock my opponent, I literally make it impossible for him to recover; it also acts as a semi-Angel of Despair (except it doesn't nuke Emrakul), since you can regularly draw your Nature's Claim to destroy Moat, or your Firestorm to kill Peacekeeper, not to mention you can get additional lands to hardcast Thugs and Narcomoebas. It is fine against aggro and it also pitches to Ichorid. Why wouldn't we want to play it?

[jares]

I prefer to look at Griselband in the simplest way possible: he's a creature that can be an imposing presence in the board while also being able to further our dredging capability. I don't believe that any of our more popular DR targets can be attributed to both capabilities. In fact, if you look at it (not to overdo the hype or anything), Griselband could be the new FKZ+Sphinx by himself!

Cheers,
jares

[Michael Keller]

Unless the card gets preemptively banned (which it won't), Griselbrand is indefinitely finding its way into my deck. There is absolutely no excuse not to run this card - none what so ever.

Well, maybe the seven life could be relevant. Sun Titan basically plows through your deck anyhow and wins the game just like he does. Is the seven life going to be worth it? I'm not sure; it still is slightly situational and can be a hefty price to pay against the wrong deck game one. Seven life is still seven life; I just think the card is still going to be incredibly good.

The issue I see with Griselbrand is how good he is going to make other archetypes. This is going to put Reanimator really back on the radar, which is going to be incredibly bad for Dredge.

[Vandalize]

Lol, this Griselbrand dude is so awesome (except against Burn and RUG, possibly). I'd say 2DR main + Griselband?

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
2 Dread Return

3 Ichorid
3 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
1 Griselbrand

SB 4 Nature's Claim
SB 3 Firestorm
SB 2 Ancient Grudge
SB 2 Tarnished Citadel
SB 1 Ray of Revelation
SB 1 Dread Return
SB 1 Flayer of the Hatebound
SB 1 Ichorid

[K1w1]

Griselband could be the new FKZ+Sphinx by himself

I agree. When you dredge your entire deck, you therapy away all the things which could stop you. ( pulse/deed etc..)
You opponent has no cards in his hand, you have a lot of tokens and if he finds a topdeck gravehate, no problem because you have tokens to win. If he finds anything to destroy your tokens ( wrath of god/damnation etc.. ) you still have ichorids in your graveyard.

So you could be right, that Griselbrand could be the the new FKZ+Sphinx be himself!
Sounds great on paper, but we can't be sure as long as we didn't test it.

K1w1

My list would be the same like i actually play, with 1 change: -1 Breakthrough + Griselbrand

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
2 Breakthrough

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Ichorid

3 Putrid Imp
3 Dread Return
1 Griselbrand
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

[jares]

Well, maybe the seven life could be relevant. Is the seven life going to be worth it? I'm not sure; it still is slightly situational and can be a hefty price to pay against the wrong deck game one. Seven life is still seven life; I just think the card is still going to be incredibly good.
I also see this to be the only significant drawback, given that Burn has also become fairly rampant, and that we also use lands that have recoil.

The issue I see with Griselbrand is how good he is going to make other archetypes. This is going to put Reanimator really back on the radar, which is going to be incredibly bad for Dredge.
I've also thought about this for a moment, and realized that Reanimator already has its draw (and discard) enabler - Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur. The difference between Jin and Griselbrand is that the former requires the end step to be activated - something that Reanimator can afford, but Dredge cannot. I don't expect Reanimator to benefit from Griselbrand as much as Dredge potentially can, though some improvements will surely be made. Unfortunately for us, improvements for Reanimator will mean more hate for them, and will also mean more hate for us. :frown:

Regards,
jares

[jares]

Lol, this Griselbrand dude is so awesome (except against Burn and RUG, possibly). I'd say 2DR main + Griselband?


So you could be right, that Griselbrand could be the the new FKZ+Sphinx by himself!
Sounds great on paper, but we can't be sure as long as we didn't test it.

Agreed. It'll be another exciting time for us to go through the testing of this new toy. I'm actually not running any Dread Returns in my current list, but I'll really need to reconsider things when this dude becomes legal.

Cheers,
jares

[K1w1]

Agreed. It'll be another exciting time for us to go through the testing of this new toy. I'm actually not running any Dread Returns in my current list, but I'll really need to reconsider things when this dude becomes legal.

Cheers,
jares

If you want, we can play at cockatrice next week or something in this time to test it.

[Mindlash]

I can see me at one point of the Future combining Griselbrand with Laboratory Maniac just for the lulz :D May be a bit to much Deckspace required though.

But pretty exciting card. Will test it in my Sun Titan slot. We will see if the 7 Life are worth it :-)

[jares]

If you want, we can play at cockatrice next week or something in this time to test it.
Sounds good. I doubt if the patches for the new set will be available by then, though, but we can always play around with a proxy (like Reiver Demon or something). :tongue:

Cheers,
jares

[K1w1]

I'm actually using a Demon Token :tongue:

[KobeBryan]

Wow that new demon will be my main dredge return target now.

If i need to draw an answer to hate, I can just draw 7 instead of dredging.

This card is broken in dredge.

[HokusSchmokus]

On second thought, I am not convinced. If you have a flying 7/7 you are likely to win anyway. This card is also absurdly bad against ravenous trap,which will be the hate of choice once people start playing it

[Izor]

Guys, guys... You're really getting a little too excited about Mr Griselbrand.


This guy is just as much a win more card as Sphinx, except the Sphinx actually does the same thing without costing you any life points. If you dredge three more times with Sphinx, you are going to find another CT and DR anyway, so you really dredge the same amount.

Not to speak of the fact that Griselbrand only dredges like 4-5 times for 7 life max, because your deck will be gone by then.

Griselbrand is entirely useless against hate. This argument is pretty ridiculous... If you're able to DR your opponent obviously didn't have any hate, so it's once again very unnecessary.



This card is 100% unnecessary in Dredge. I mean, of course people will see results with it if everyone started running it right now, because you can basically win tournaments with Vizzerdrix as your target (which again shows how irrelevant DR targets are in general). But in fact this card does not improve this deck by any means and it will definitely not be banned right after the release. Quote me on that.

[igri_is_a_bk]

He won't provide you an answer to hate. If you're casting DR, and they have hate, and they let it resolve/not fizzle, something is wrong with them. He's the most nut-busting enabler I've ever seen though. He's more than [2x] Sphinx of Lost Truths in one card, that's scary.

Check out the text on Flayer:

Whenever Flayer of the Hatebound or another creature enters the battlefield from your graveyard, that creature deals damage equal to its power to target creature or player.

So if we have Flayer in play before you bring back the Demon, he pings them for 7 lifelink'd damage. It'll largely be irrelevant actually, since you'd just bring back GGT in that scenario and kill them. Although, if you don't have enough creatures or the Troll in the yard, that's an excellent way to avoid getting burned out against RUG or Burn and still mill your deck.

Going Demon before Flayer is also just as good, cuz then Flayer is going to be a guaranteed kill. That's obviously much better than Sphinx + FKZ, which usually needed the bird first.

http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/015/e21/b38/resized/borat-approves-meme-generator-i-am-very-excite-8d6743.jpg?1312443012.jpg

[Final Fortune]

Guys, guys... You're really getting a little too excited about Mr Griselbrand.


This guy is just as much a win more card as Sphinx, except the Sphinx actually does the same thing without costing you any life points. If you dredge three more times with Sphinx, you are going to find another CT and DR anyway, so you really dredge the same amount.

Not to speak of the fact that Griselbrand only dredges like 4-5 times for 7 life max, because your deck will be gone by then.

Griselbrand is entirely useless against hate. This argument is pretty ridiculous... If you're able to DR your opponent obviously didn't have any hate, so it's once again very unnecessary.



This card is 100% unnecessary in Dredge. I mean, of course people will see results with it if everyone started running it right now, because you can basically win tournaments with Vizzerdrix as your target (which again shows how irrelevant DR targets are in general). But in fact this card does not improve this deck by any means and it will definitely not be banned right after the release. Quote me on that.

Obviously it's "just another Dread Return target," but even in that context it's exciting.

[jares]

Wow that new demon will be my main dredge return target now.

If i need to draw an answer to hate, I can just draw 7 instead of dredging.

This card is broken in dredge.
I don't think that you'll be able to Dredge Return anything. :tongue:

Also, I agree with Izor here - if you were able to bring Griselbrand into play, you probably don't need your anti-hate anyway (except maybe in the far-off change that you're against Ensnaring Bridge and the like).

I wouldn't say that Griselbrand is broken - I would say that, at the very least, it's very interesting.

Cheers,
jares

[joemauer]

Griselbrand is kind of win more. Sphinx of the Lost Truths always got a sufficient amount of cards in my graveyard to win with FKZ. Rare occasions I would have to sac him to cabal therapy and dread return him again.

I don't think the draw seven is biggest allure of him, but the fact he is 7/7 flier with life link bad ass is what makes him special. He is kind of like the Fonzie from Happy Days, fixing jukeboxes and girls drooling over him.

[Gui]

Guys, guys... You're really getting a little too excited about Mr Griselbrand.


This guy is just as much a win more card as Sphinx, except the Sphinx actually does the same thing without costing you any life points. If you dredge three more times with Sphinx, you are going to find another CT and DR anyway, so you really dredge the same amount.

Not to speak of the fact that Griselbrand only dredges like 4-5 times for 7 life max, because your deck will be gone by then.

Griselbrand is entirely useless against hate. This argument is pretty ridiculous... If you're able to DR your opponent obviously didn't have any hate, so it's once again very unnecessary.



This card is 100% unnecessary in Dredge. I mean, of course people will see results with it if everyone started running it right now, because you can basically win tournaments with Vizzerdrix as your target (which again shows how irrelevant DR targets are in general). But in fact this card does not improve this deck by any means and it will definitely not be banned right after the release. Quote me on that.

With this I agree, but I'm not talking about how much this deck will evolve because of the DR target, but rather, how much the guy can make other DR target options to be subpar. The guy is pretty much a win button, better than most options that are used in the same way. But maybe the deck doesn't even need DR targets, to begin with.

[Digital Devil]

The draw 7 is indeed win-more, but the thing that amazed me was the resemblance to Iona, Sphinx and Angel of Despair, all in one card. I never played Cephalid Sage nor Sphinx, but playing Griselbrand gives me a free slot as I can play both creatures at the same time. I can screw my opponent with the other three Therapies, while setting up for the alpha strike. Ok, it eats Swords to Plowshares, but with my whole deck in my graveyard I can just DR a huge GGT or trigger a bunch of Ichorids, and even a topdecked Wrath of God can't deal with the 3/1s. Your opponent has a Peacekeeper? Just dredge until you find that Darkblast, return it to your hand, and if you don't have a rainbow land to cast it you might even get the chance to draw one. Same with Ensnaring Bridge etc. Rhox War Monk is considered a good anti-burn card? This one is bigger, and it flies, too. So it's basically RWM + Iona (to a certain degree) + Angel of Despair + Sphinx that gives our opponent a 3-turn clock and it's also synergistic with our secondary winning condition? Not to mention it doesn't depend on Bridge from Below and can be brought into play as soon as DR conditions are met.

[Michael Keller]

The draw 7 is indeed win-more, but the thing that amazed me was the resemblance to Iona, Sphinx and Angel of Despair, all in one card. I never played Cephalid Sage nor Sphinx, but playing Griselbrand gives me a free slot as I can play both creatures at the same time. I can screw my opponent with the other three Therapies, while setting up for the alpha strike. Ok, it eats Swords to Plowshares, but with my whole deck in my graveyard I can just DR a huge GGT or trigger a bunch of Ichorids, and even a topdecked Wrath of God can't deal with the 3/1s. Your opponent has a Peacekeeper? Just dredge until you find that Darkblast, return it to your hand, and if you don't have a rainbow land to cast it you might even get the chance to draw one. Same with Ensnaring Bridge etc. Rhox War Monk is considered a good anti-burn card? This one is bigger, and it flies, too. So it's basically RWM + Iona (to a certain degree) + Angel of Despair + Sphinx that gives our opponent a 3-turn clock and it's also synergistic with our secondary winning condition? Not to mention it doesn't depend on Bridge from Below and can be brought into play as soon as DR conditions are met.

^ .

[Mindlash]

The draw 7 is indeed win-more, but the thing that amazed me was the resemblance to Iona, Sphinx and Angel of Despair, all in one card. I never played Cephalid Sage nor Sphinx, but playing Griselbrand gives me a free slot as I can play both creatures at the same time. I can screw my opponent with the other three Therapies, while setting up for the alpha strike. Ok, it eats Swords to Plowshares, but with my whole deck in my graveyard I can just DR a huge GGT or trigger a bunch of Ichorids, and even a topdecked Wrath of God can't deal with the 3/1s. Your opponent has a Peacekeeper? Just dredge until you find that Darkblast, return it to your hand, and if you don't have a rainbow land to cast it you might even get the chance to draw one. Same with Ensnaring Bridge etc. Rhox War Monk is considered a good anti-burn card? This one is bigger, and it flies, too. So it's basically RWM + Iona (to a certain degree) + Angel of Despair + Sphinx that gives our opponent a 3-turn clock and it's also synergistic with our secondary winning condition? Not to mention it doesn't depend on Bridge from Below and can be brought into play as soon as DR conditions are met.

I agree with you in almost every way.

But from the Games I played, I have to say: Sphinx or Titan dredged (nearly) the rest of my deck to the grave most of the time the moment they hit the table.

I played Titan Maindeck after Lootings became legal. Titan was Game Over for my Opponents everytime it hits the table. You just flipped the Deck with his help, raped your Opp's hand and sent your Zombies to lunch the turn after.

I tested Flayer after Andos win for a long time and it was the same most of the time but 1 turn faster. Flayer on table was GG for my Opp's in the turn I returned him or the turn after. But I nearly never had to pass after the Devil arrives on the battlefield.

Sphinx was used by me as a SB card against Combo. Flips the Deck to find the Devil who ends the game.

Now for Griselbrand: I like the card pretty much, but I fail to see, how he is THAT much better as a DR-Target. It just wins the Game by hitting the table. A resolved DR pretty much is GG despite the creature. There are some Utilitycreatures like Angel, Iona, Elesh, Terastodon and some straight Game-Winners. This one is the latter.

I will get one and test it nontheless. But I just don't see his superiority to other choices :-/ He will just be the last card my Opp's see, like many DR-Target before...

[badjuju]

I agree with you in almost every way.

But from the Games I played, I have to say: Sphinx or Titan dredged (nearly) the rest of my deck to the grave most of the time the moment they hit the table.

I played Titan Maindeck after Lootings became legal. Titan was Game Over for my Opponents everytime it hits the table. You just flipped the Deck with his help, raped your Opp's hand and sent your Zombies to lunch the turn after.

I tested Flayer after Andos win for a long time and it was the same most of the time but 1 turn faster. Flayer on table was GG for my Opp's in the turn I returned him or the turn after. But I nearly never had to pass after the Devil arrives on the battlefield.

Sphinx was used by me as a SB card against Combo. Flips the Deck to find the Devil who ends the game.

Now for Griselbrand: I like the card pretty much, but I fail to see, how he is THAT much better as a DR-Target. It just wins the Game by hitting the table. A resolved DR pretty much is GG despite the creature. There are some Utilitycreatures like Angel, Iona, Elesh, Terastodon and some straight Game-Winners. This one is the latter.

I will get one and test it nontheless. But I just don't see his superiority to other choices :-/ He will just be the last card my Opp's see, like many DR-Target before...

There are sticky games that don't always fall into place like you're describing above. In those games, you often have poor dredges, or your bridges get removed somehow. In such a scenario, other dredge targets are much worse than Griselbrand. By himself he can help you stabilize, help you dredge more (or draw into answers), and ultimately win the game as a 7/7 flier. I think people are misunderstanding why he's impressive. It's not because he blows the other choices out of the water - it's because he does all of these other well-rounded things that the other MD DR targets don't. Now, I haven't played with Griselbrand yet, and I can't say for sure that he's straight up superior, but he's looking pretty decent on paper.

[jares]

There are sticky games that don't always fall into place like you're describing above. In those games, you often have poor dredges, or your bridges get removed somehow. In such a scenario, other dredge targets are much worse than Griselbrand. By himself he can help you stabilize, help you dredge more (or draw into answers), and ultimately win the game as a 7/7 flier. I think people are misunderstanding why he's impressive. It's not because he blows the other choices out of the water - it's because he does all of these other well-rounded things that the other MD DR targets don't. Now, I haven't played with Griselbrand yet, and I can't say for sure that he's straight up superior, but he's looking pretty decent on paper.
In agreement to your statements, I would like to quote myself. :tongue:

I prefer to look at Griselband in the simplest way possible: he's a creature that can be an imposing presence in the board while also being able to further our dredging capability. I don't believe that any of our more popular DR targets can be attributed to both capabilities. In fact, if you look at it (not to overdo the hype or anything), Griselband could be the new FKZ+Sphinx by himself!

Looking forward to more previews. :smile:

Cheers,
jares

[K1w1]

Hmmm..

http://www.planeswalkerslibrary.com/images/avr/172.jpg?6599

He should give other creatures haste in addition to the other ability.

[jares]

Hmmm..

http://www.planeswalkerslibrary.com/images/avr/172.jpg?6599

He should give other creatures haste in addition to the other ability.
If only we could be that lucky... :tongue:

In other not-so-important news, Temporal Mastery is fast becoming the latest craze of the new set. I expect this new card to shape the landscape of the meta game for a few months, much like how Mental Misstep did, and then get banned because of the abuse it will get alongside Brainstorm (much like how Mental Misstep also got banned). During this time period, the Hybrid Dredge builds will likely be in fashion again, and I expect Griselbrand to be featured in those builds. I might just be reading too much into it though.

Cheers,
jares

[Que]

Craterhoof Behemoth 5ggg
Creature - Beast Mythic Rare
Haste
When Craterhoof Behemoth enters the battlefield, creatures you control gain trample and get +X/+X until end of turn, where X is the number of creatures you control.


hah here is your new FKZ. ;p

EDIT: Scratch that. lol shit doesn't give your dudes haste. IT only has haste. bleh..

[jares]

hah here is your new FKZ. ;p

EDIT: Scratch that. lol shit doesn't give your dudes haste. IT only has haste. bleh..
Yeah, I re-read the whole text looking for the "your creatures have Haste", but the +X/+X was all I got. At least it also gives Trample :tongue:

Better luck for us next time. :laugh:

Cheers,
jares

[HokusSchmokus]

If only we could be that lucky... :tongue:

In other not-so-important news, Temporal Mastery is fast becoming the latest craze of the new set. I expect this new card to shape the landscape of the meta game for a few months, much like how Mental Misstep did, and then get banned because of the abuse it will get alongside Brainstorm (much like how Mental Misstep also got banned). During this time period, the Hybrid Dredge builds will likely be in fashion again, and I expect Griselbrand to be featured in those builds. I might just be reading too much into it though.

Cheers,
jares

I don't think we will see the new time walk outside of UR Delver. I would consider it barely even playable. Everybody's just being chicken little.

[jares]

I don't think we will see the new time walk outside of UR Delver. I would consider it barely even playable. Everybody's just being chicken little.
I see a lot of people scampering to get hold of it, though, so it'll probably be used in more than just U/R Delver (and it now costs $40 a pop even before it's legal, so they might as well play it to get their money's worth :tongue:).

I hope you're right.

Cheers,
jares

[Gui]

I find the fact that 7/7 flying lifelink demands 3 regular bolt spells to be killed and will almost certainly give you life pretty sexy against U/R or UGr, what do you guys think? It's not as good against :w: but :w: isn't as fast as :r: anyways...

[HokusSchmokus]

I see a lot of people scampering to get hold of it, though, so it'll probably be used in more than just U/R Delver (and it now costs $40 a pop even before it's legal, so they might as well play it to get their money's worth :tongue:).

I hope you're right.

Cheers,
jares

Oh, I hope everybody will play it. It is just such a bad card most of the times imo.


@Gui

I think so too. I also seem to change my opinion about this guy like every 5 minutes:D
But I can definately see it being very good in a RUG/UR Delver meta.

[jares]

Oh, I hope everybody will play it. It is just such a bad card most of the times imo.

Actually, even if a deck were to run the full set, players would still be more likely to draw into a Temporal Mastery (60.05%) than have it in their opening hand - and that's not considering that a full set of Brainstorm is also at their disposal.

Honestly, I've never been able to play with any of the Power Nine, but I'm assuming that there's a reason for why they're called that - and Temporal Mastery seems like a very good approximation of Time Walk (hopefully, it would also be a fair approximation). We'll just have to wait and see how it works out.

Cheers,
jares

[badjuju]

This question is directed at Hollywood, but it goes for anyone who is playing combo-LED dredge.

Can you recall the games, if any, where you lost after resolving a DR on Sun Titan? Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of Flayer, but for a person who had played a ton more LEDless dredge back in the day, it's tough for me personally to dedicate 4 MB slots towards making this guy work when I can just run Sun Titan + 2 DR to go for triple Therapy into a next turn kill. The Flayer list really doesn't work smoothly with less than 3 DRs, I've tried.

Here is a list of other itchies I found while playing the deck:

- 2 Ichorids is barely enough. Honestly, the blowout games these guys do absolutely nothing. I can understand the logic behind running only two, but when games go awry, these guys will be your savior. I think I'm going to pack 3 MB.
- 13 lands is also barely enough. I really want to add a 14th land, but I have no idea what to cut. This is partially why I'm asking about Sun Titan, because if I run him, I can just forgo the 3rd DR and put in another land.
- 11 dredgers is fine. I've never really had a problem, although some people swear they'd never go less than 12. I tend to be a bit more liberal with my keeps that involve CS and FL, especially if there's two in my hand.
- I've fished games with a proxied Griselbrand. It's tough to say how good he is because I don't think his value shows until you are in a rut and need him to pull you out of it. In a vacuum, he's just straight up better than Sphinx or Sun Titan (duh) because it'll pretty much be impossible to whiff. But if I were to run him, I'd swap out Tarnished Citadel with Undiscovered Paradise (an obvious deduction).

[Mindlash]

This question is directed at Hollywood, but it goes for anyone who is playing combo-LED dredge.

Can you recall the games, if any, where you lost after resolving a DR on Sun Titan? Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of Flayer, but for a person who had played a ton more LEDless dredge back in the day, it's tough for me personally to dedicate 4 MB slots towards making this guy work when I can just run Sun Titan + 2 DR to go for triple Therapy into a next turn kill. The Flayer list really doesn't work smoothly with less than 3 DRs, I've tried.

Here is a list of other itchies I found while playing the deck:

- 2 Ichorids is barely enough. Honestly, the blowout games these guys do absolutely nothing. I can understand the logic behind running only two, but when games go awry, these guys will be your savior. I think I'm going to pack 3 MB.
- 13 lands is also barely enough. I really want to add a 14th land, but I have no idea what to cut. This is partially why I'm asking about Sun Titan, because if I run him, I can just forgo the 3rd DR and put in another land.
- 11 dredgers is fine. I've never really had a problem, although some people swear they'd never go less than 12. I tend to be a bit more liberal with my keeps that involve CS and FL, especially if there's two in my hand.
- I've fished games with a proxied Griselbrand. It's tough to say how good he is because I don't think his value shows until you are in a rut and need him to pull you out of it. In a vacuum, he's just straight up better than Sphinx or Sun Titan (duh) because it'll pretty much be impossible to whiff. But if I were to run him, I'd swap out Tarnished Citadel with Undiscovered Paradise (an obvious deduction).

As I wrote earlier, a resolved DR will end the Game in your favor most of the times despite the creature you are ressurecting. I put some thought into my Griselbrand-List and came to the same Ideas as you did. I will probably do the following changes to my deck:

- 1 Tarnished Citadel
- 1 Dread Return
- 1 Flayer
+ 2 Undiscovered Paradise (ordered them 10 minutes ago :-P)
+ 1 Griselbrand

As for the 3rd Ichorid...I am not sure what to cut. Depending on my Matchups I use the full set in postboard games. But there were certain G1 where I missed the 3rd and 4th Ichorid a lot. Most of the games went in my favor anyways...but they were pretty close and a 3rd Ichorid would have helped to seal the deal earlier.

I am on 3 Thugs, 3 Careful Study and 3 Cabal and 2 Ichorids now to get in the 2 extra lands and the DR-Package coming from a Quadlaser-List.
Maybe I switch 1 PImp / Ichorid Maindeck/Sideboardwise.

As for Flayer vs Titan: The Flayer won me some Games in certain Matchups, where I was not able to explode fast enough. One of my Friends plays Enchantress and an early Elephant Grass can cause major headaches. Flayer just burns through the Grass, while Titan/Troll have to take the long walk :-/

But aside from some prison decks there should not be that much of a difference, which one gets ressurected. Titan has to pass the turn. But your Opp should now be in topdeckmode anyways.

Edit: Another thing worthy to mention is the case when your Bridges got extracted or you have not enough to build an overwhelming army of zombies.. In my experience Flayer has a slight edge here over Titan.

[badjuju]

As I wrote earlier, a resolved DR will end the Game in your favor most of the times despite the creature you are ressurecting. I put some thought into my Griselbrand-List and came to the same Ideas as you did. I will probably do the following changes to my deck:

- 1 Tarnished Citadel
- 1 Dread Return
- 1 Flayer
+ 2 Undiscovered Paradise (ordered them 10 minutes ago :-P)
+ 1 Griselbrand

As for the 3rd Ichorid...I am not sure what to cut. Depending on my Matchups I use the full set in postboard games. But there were certain G1 where I missed the 3rd and 4th Ichorid a lot. Most of the games went in my favor anyways...but they were pretty close and a 3rd Ichorid would have helped to seal the deal earlier.

I am on 3 Thugs, 3 Careful Study and 3 Cabal and 2 Ichorids now to get in the 2 extra lands and the DR-Package coming from a Quadlaser-List.
Maybe I switch 1 PImp / Ichorid Maindeck/Sideboardwise.

As for Flayer vs Titan: The Flayer won me some Games in certain Matchups, where I was not able to explode fast enough. One of my Friends plays Enchantress and an early Elephant Grass can cause major headaches. Flayer just burns through the Grass, while Titan/Troll have to take the long walk :-/

But aside from some prison decks there should not be that much of a difference, which one gets ressurected. Titan has to pass the turn. But your Opp should now be in topdeckmode anyways.

Thanks for the insight; glad we're thinking in the same direction.

Just a little thing on Sun Titan - he's been good for me in weird games where I lose my bridges and depend on a DR to pull me out of it. Bringing back Stinkweed Imp is actually not bad when you're both in topdeck mode, and the fact that he has vigilance allows me to play both offense and defense. It might just be me, but I find myself in awkward spots with this deck sometimes. Back in the day Iona was the go to target for me, but now that decks have diversified there's no other DR target that just 'wins you the game' without the help of bridges. So there's my logic behind building a case for DR targets: if resolving a DR in a vacuum usually means the game is over regardless, which DR targets allow you to come back from shaky games where you can't get your bridges going? I think both Sun Titan and Griselbrand can perform that role to some extent, where Iona is no longer formidable enough. And I guess Flayer too, requires a bit more resources.

Edit: lol woah read my mind on your edit.

[Mindlash]

Thanks for the insight; glad we're thinking in the same direction.

Just a little thing on Sun Titan - he's been good for me in weird games where I lose my bridges and depend on a DR to pull me out of it. Bringing back Stinkweed Imp is actually not bad when you're both in topdeck mode, and the fact that he has vigilance allows me to play both offense and defense. It might just be me, but I find myself in awkward spots with this deck sometimes. Back in the day Iona was the go to target for me, but now that decks have diversified there's no other DR target that just 'wins you the game' without the help of bridges. So there's my logic behind building a case for DR targets: if resolving a DR in a vacuum usually means the game is over regardless, which DR targets allow you to come back from shaky games where you can't get your bridges going? I think both Sun Titan and Griselbrand can perform that role to some extent, where Iona is no longer formidable enough. And I guess Flayer too, requires a bit more resources.

Edit: lol woah read my mind on your edit.

Haha yeah the Bridges came to my mind while I was smoking. But you are right. Most of the DR Targets just devastate your Opp in combination with Bridges. Flayer can also win games without them. Revive Flayer, pass turn, get Ichorids, sac Ichorids and Flayer for Troll an Burn ;-)

With Titan you can go more grindy I think. Flip your deck, control their handcards und get some Thugs, Moebas and Stinkweeds online.

Grisel on the other hand gives you access to more options, wether your choose to dredge or draw and is a menace by himself. Evasion, Lifelink and a 3 Turn clock (maybe 2 Turn clock at this state of the game) is just awesome.

The 3rd Ichorid is also favorable in games where you lost the Bridges. At least you can attack now without fear of losing the bridges and start to overwhelm them slowly in combination with your DR-Target und Cabals.

The one thing I never liked about FKZ and to a certain degree Elesh is the fact that they get worse the less Bridges you have. I would rather DR a Moeba than FKZ without Bridges :-P Elesh at least gets rid of some of the GW Maverick Critters and wrecks Elfball/oppsing Dredgedecks :-)

Iona may not find her way into my Maindeck ever again, but I like her as an additonal Target against Spiral Tide, Elfball in my Board.

Edit: The more I think about Griselbrand, the more I like him alone from a Roleplaying point of view. While Zombies have been the Storm Troopers of Dredge for a long time, this might be their new Darth Vader. Tall, black, menacing and ready to call in more reinforcements just to get burned down by some Emperors Lightning in the end :-P

[K1w1]

If I had to chose wether to play griselbrand or not, I vote for .not. and take gisela due to double flayer damage.

[Mindlash]

If I had to chose wether to play griselbrand or not, I vote for .not. and take gisela due to double flayer damage.

Which would require yet another dedicated DR-Target. Flayer already demands a 3rd DR. What do you cut for Gisela?

But she makes your Zombies go frenzy, doubles your life for the time she is on the field and turns Flayer into a killingmachine.

Its just to much DR + DR-Target action for my taste. Flayer into Troll is already enough for the killshot.

She would probably end up in my Manaless Dredge, where I have more slots to spare and more recurring critters to take benefits out of her.

[jares]

If I had to chose wether to play griselbrand or not, I vote for .not. and take gisela due to double flayer damage.
I'm not so sure about Gisela... wouldn't two Flayer of the Hatebound be able to do much more alongside each other?

These considerations sound to me like they're in the win-more category though. :tongue:

Regards,
jares

[Mindlash]

I'm not so sure about Gisela... wouldn't two Flayer of the Hatebound be able to do much more alongside each other?

These considerations sound to me like they're in the win-more category though. :tongue:

Regards,
jares

Right :-) And two Flayers have a higher chance for you to dredge Flayer (duh -.-) :-)
Gisela on her own isn't as impressing as other DR-Targets I think.

[Final Fortune]

Before we get off track, do any of these targets actually make you want to play with Dread Return? Ofcourse they're kind of nifty, but I don't think they do anything more necessary or relevant than what's already out there (altho' they may do it better in some cases)

[Mindlash]

Before we get off track, do any of these targets actually make you want to play with Dread Return? Ofcourse they're kind of nifty, but I don't think they do anything more necessary or relevant than what's already out there (altho' they may do it better in some cases)

Some builds already use DR with Flayer/Titan mostly I think. Iona and Elesh are often found in Sideboards. The question is, if some of those new targets are better than some of the targets already in use.

Do these targets make me want to play with Dread Return? Well Flayer and Titan already did and they work well. Do the new targets fit better in the current Dredgelists? We'll have to see.

Dread Return vs Dread Returnless is a whole new story. From a logical point of view the Quadlaserlist should be better. I played it a lot. But the DR-package just works better for me. I get more stable hands (which makes me wonder myself a bit). Perhaps I'm just to dumb to play Quodlaser right and the DR-Targets help me to compensate my lack of skill :-P

[Dead_Style]

LCL winner in March, 131 players:

1º Adria Romero- LED-Dredge

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8049


3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Dread Return
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

Side:

1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Nature's Claim
1 Darkblast
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Angel of Despair
2 Gravecrawler
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

[K1w1]

Which would require yet another dedicated DR-Target. Flayer already demands a 3rd DR. What do you cut for Gisela?

But she makes your Zombies go frenzy, doubles your life for the time she is on the field and turns Flayer into a killingmachine.

Its just to much DR + DR-Target action for my taste. Flayer into Troll is already enough for the killshot.

She would probably end up in my Manaless Dredge, where I have more slots to spare and more recurring critters to take benefits out of her.


I'm not so sure about Gisela... wouldn't two Flayer of the Hatebound be able to do much more alongside each other?

These considerations sound to me like they're in the win-more category though.

Regards,
jares

??? Isn't it right, that my Zombies attack for 4? And Ichorids for 6?
In addition, you are save against burn, imo.

[Mindlash]

??? Isn't it right, that my Zombies attack for 4? And Ichorids for 6?
In addition, you are save against burn, imo.

Thats true. But since you told before you will use Gisela to make Flayer go nuts I believed you will play them both.

She is totally playable as the only DR-Target in your Deck, but way to dependant from other stuff (Bridges, Ichorids) to be effective, while other targets may be good on their own.

Ok...Flayer also needs a Troll to finish instantly. But there will be always a Troll in your Grave by that time (and also a DR since the Flayerlist plays 3).

She is not bad but doesn't make the cut for me. Or I just fail to see the benefit from her over others.

[K1w1]

Thats true. But since you told before you will use Gisela to make Flayer go nuts I believed you will play them both.

She is totally playable as the only DR-Target in your Deck, but way to dependant from other stuff (Bridges, Ichorids) to be effective, while other targets may be good on their own.

Ok...Flayer also needs a Troll to finish instantly. But there will be always a Troll in your Grave by that time (and also a DR since the Flayerlist plays 3).

She is not bad but doesn't make the cut for me. Or I just fail to see the benefit from her over others.


When i play the Quadlazer -1 Pimp, -1 Thug, -1 Ichorid, -1 Breakthrough +3 Dread Return, +1 Flayer, i can also play two (2) Breakthrough and play an additional target. Ofc you have a Troll, which is mostly 12-14, imo. Gisela deals 10 and you tokens or Ichorids atk for more. Sometimes you need it, if you have no DR or therapies. ( with online flayer/gisela)

K1w1

[Gui]

LCL winner in March, 131 players:

1º Adria Romero- LED-Dredge

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8049


3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Dread Return
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

Side:

1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Nature's Claim
1 Darkblast
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Angel of Despair
2 Gravecrawler
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Neat list. ^^

[joemauer]

@the Titan versus flayer thing:
I think there are situations where flayer will win when sun Titan could not, very fringe situations. However, to play the full set of 3 dread returns and flayer people have been cutting down to two ichorids and three cabal therapies. I believe this could cost just as many games as the flayer package wins you. While it is much more subtle, Cabal Therapy and ichorids are time walks and pressure when you can't mill enough of your library to get your DR target.


Random Side Note, I may be going to SCG birmingham next week. Not sure if I want to play dredge or elves. If anyone has any clue what the meta is over there let me know. I don't know if the meta will be more like Memphis or Atlanta.

Anywho, here is my current sideboard:

Chain of Vapor x4
Nature's Claim x2
Ancient Grudge x2
Ignot Chewer x1
Fairie Macabre x2 <---would rather coffin purge here, but apparently I don't own any!
Sadistic Hippie x1
Elesh Norn x1
Angel of Despair x1
Darkblast x1

My concerns with my SB are the number of chains/claims/ancient grudge. Also, I will almost certainly cut darkblast, just don't know what to put there. Some nice options are Dread Return #3, Ichorid #4, Ray of Revelations, or another Nature's Claim.

[Michael Keller]

This question is directed at Hollywood, but it goes for anyone who is playing combo-LED dredge.

Can you recall the games, if any, where you lost after resolving a DR on Sun Titan? Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of Flayer, but for a person who had played a ton more LEDless dredge back in the day, it's tough for me personally to dedicate 4 MB slots towards making this guy work when I can just run Sun Titan + 2 DR to go for triple Therapy into a next turn kill. The Flayer list really doesn't work smoothly with less than 3 DRs, I've tried.

Here is a list of other itchies I found while playing the deck:

- 2 Ichorids is barely enough. Honestly, the blowout games these guys do absolutely nothing. I can understand the logic behind running only two, but when games go awry, these guys will be your savior. I think I'm going to pack 3 MB.
- 13 lands is also barely enough. I really want to add a 14th land, but I have no idea what to cut. This is partially why I'm asking about Sun Titan, because if I run him, I can just forgo the 3rd DR and put in another land.
- 11 dredgers is fine. I've never really had a problem, although some people swear they'd never go less than 12. I tend to be a bit more liberal with my keeps that involve CS and FL, especially if there's two in my hand.
- I've fished games with a proxied Griselbrand. It's tough to say how good he is because I don't think his value shows until you are in a rut and need him to pull you out of it. In a vacuum, he's just straight up better than Sphinx or Sun Titan (duh) because it'll pretty much be impossible to whiff. But if I were to run him, I'd swap out Tarnished Citadel with Undiscovered Paradise (an obvious deduction).

I have never lost a game in which Dread Return targeting Sun Titan has resolved. The card is ludicrous in LED Dredge, and it just facilitates a virtual win on the the spot. I've also (as indicated by my last report) begun running three Ichorids again. The card has just been so good that I have also found two to be just narrowly acceptable.

The deal with Griselbrand is two-fold. On one hand, you have an extremely powerful engine (by itself, no less) that basically puts Sun Titan to shame in regards to card advantage. Think of it like this: How often are you really going to sustain more than thirteen damage game one with LED Dredge before turn three? Not too often. This makes his ability unmatched in power because of how many cards you're drawing. Even if you're drawing naturally, you're still drawing seven cards. And in a deck that abuses Lion's Eye Diamond with draw effects, that's incredibly powerful.

On the other hand, Sun Titan gives you flexibility whenever you need it by recurring creatures or accelerating into draws. I just think if you have to match the two cards for what their primary intention is to do in this deck (which is to say blow the game open as early and as fast as possible), then Griselbrand is just a stronger choice overall. No matter what happens you can always bring back a massive Troll after creating a horde of Zombie tokens, and that plan is usually the one people fall back on anyhow because you run four Troll and not four Griselbrand/Titan. Also, I still don't like Tarnished Citadel. Undiscovered Paradise does virtually the same thing, yet some people don't run it because of the corner-case dis-synergy with Coliseum. I understand that, but making an opponent's job that much easier isn't worth it, and when playing with Griselbrand it definitely isn't worth it.

I will almost certainly be running Griselbrand in my new list. And yes, because I hate to reiterate the obvious, it is always nice having another Black creature on tap to exile in the event Ichorid threatens the following turn.

[Tammit67]

Been playing dredge for about a week now, playing pretty much postboard only. I have 0 DR targets main since I can't decide on one currently that I like. Anyhow...

How the hell do you sideboard with this deck? I know what to bring in every matchup, but can never decide what is best to take out. My boarding plan is quite unplanned and often goes well of the back of therapies, but I always feel it isn't good.

Usually, LED comes out in some number... then maybe the 4th therapy or a few careful study/faithless looting... I have no idea. All the recent reports in the primer don't account for sideboarding plans, and the primer mentions only what cards are found often.

[K1w1]

I came to the conclusion, that it is better to keep LED in your deck against the most decks and board out breakthrough, imo!

[badjuju]

I came to the conclusion, that it is better to keep LED in your deck against the most decks and board out breakthrough, imo!

After reading Hollywood's tournament report and the rest of this thread, I am inclined to agree. A lot of times, racing is the answer. And many people also have the misconception that you need to use LED asap and go all in with it. Holding onto it or leaving it uncracked leads to situations that allow you to come back from games that LEDless would most likely not have.

[AEnesidem]

I came to the conclusion, that it is better to keep LED in your deck against the most decks and board out breakthrough, imo!

I agree with K1w1, the first card to come out in most matchups with me is breakthrough. Otherwise i guess i side out one of several cards.

[Mindlash]

I agree with K1w1, the first card to come out in most matchups with me is breakthrough. Otherwise i guess i side out one of several cards.

I have to agree. LED stays in my Deck more and more. At first I boarded them out for antihate and could not finish the game before I encountered the next hatecard.

Played against GW Maverick last weekend and was to lazy to board anything after I won G1. I scooped against Turn 1 Cage. Choose to go (still didn't board anything...it was late and I was lazy and it was no tournament...just fun game with BBQ Sideevent :-P) and raped his hand including Cage and Ooze :-P

LED can just do awesome things in this deck an can almost always bring you to your Cabals before the hate hit the table on the go.

Most of the time I tend to do some -1 on a few cards to bring my answers in. Breakthrough is also a good card to board out if you don't need its speed and want a more grindy game 2. Never ever board Breakthrough out on Combo matchups though.

On another Topic: I am torn between 4 Study or 4 Imp (instead of 3 of one of them). Have 4 Breakthrough and 4 Lootings put I don't like the idea of cutting 1 Breakthrough Maindeck. Other option is 3 Study / 3 PImp for a 10th Rainbowland. And I cannot decide between Memory's Journey and Purify the Grave in my Sideboard :-/

[Final Fortune]

Neat list. ^^

I play pretty much the same deck - Dread Return + a Land, it's pretty damn consistent fwiw.

[GoldenCid]

I came to the conclusion, that it is better to keep LED in your deck against the most decks and board out breakthrough, imo!



me too!!! :)

[badjuju]

What do you guys think of the Gravecrawler board strat that Adria has adopted? Also, in regards to that list, he only runs 1 DR, yet he runs 3 DR targets in the board. The odds of flipping both DR and the target is much tougher than lists running 2-3 DR. I suppose his targets aren't really made for "comboing" out, but rather utility creatures that come into play should beating down with Ichorids / zombies fail. It's more a convenience and plan B more than it is the focus, like with Flayer lists.

Personally, I have an odd gut feeling about passing the turn when the win is locked up. For that reason alone, I might be leaning towards a Flayer build. It's interesting to see the quad build do well though.

And while I'm on the discussion of lists, I remember a few people mentioning (Necro in particular) that Bloodghast would work well in a Flayer list. While Daniel Rude's 9th place list does not opt to run Flayer (FKZ instead), he adopts the ghast plan. Any thoughts on that list?

[Final Fortune]

I think Gravecrawler is just worse than Nether Shadow most of the time, having activated a Bridge and having a land on board is a bit much to ask for sometimes.

[jares]

I think Gravecrawler is just worse than Nether Shadow most of the time, having activated a Bridge and having a land on board is a bit much to ask for sometimes.
I agree. I believe that the use of Gravecrawler for Dredge has been discussed ever since it was spoiled, and the consensus was that the requirements for it to be effective don't fit very well with the current configuration of the deck. It was also mentioned that Ashen Ghoul might be worth considering (note that its creature type is "Zombie", not "Ghoul" :tongue:) in a deck with Gravecrawler (as Putrid Imp is really the only Zombie we have other than the ones that come out of Bridge from Below), but that would really look like a different deck altogether.

Come to think about it, that deck sounds like fun. :laugh:

What do you guys think of the Gravecrawler board strat that Adria has adopted? Also, in regards to that list, he only runs 1 DR, yet he runs 3 DR targets in the board. The odds of flipping both DR and the target is much tougher than lists running 2-3 DR. I suppose his targets aren't really made for "comboing" out, but rather utility creatures that come into play should beating down with Ichorids / zombies fail. It's more a convenience and plan B more than it is the focus, like with Flayer lists.

May we request for a link for that list? Thanks in advance. :smile:

Kind Regards,
jares

[Mindlash]

I agree. I believe that the use of Gravecrawler for Dredge has been discussed ever since it was spoiled, and the consensus was that the requirements for it to be effective don't fit very well with the current configuration of the deck. It was also mentioned that Ashen Ghoul might be worth considering (note that its creature type is "Zombie", not "Ghoul" :tongue:) in a deck with Gravecrawler (as Putrid Imp is really the only Zombie we have other than the ones that come out of Bridge from Below), but that would really look like a different deck altogether.

Come to think about it, that deck sounds like fun. :laugh:

May we request for a link for that list? Thanks in advance. :smile:

Kind Regards,
jares


LCL winner in March, 131 players:

1º Adria Romero- LED-Dredge

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8049


3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Dread Return
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

Side:

1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Nature's Claim
1 Darkblast
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Angel of Despair
2 Gravecrawler
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

:-)

[joemauer]

The one Dread Return and the numerous dread return targets,in the SB, does not make any sense to me either. That guy got first place in the tourney though. Either he got uber lucky or he knows something we don't.

[Final Fortune]

The one Dread Return and the numerous dread return targets,in the SB, does not make any sense to me either. That guy got first place in the tourney though. Either he got uber lucky or he knows something we don't.

Eh, as much as I push the "your average dredge player is an unskilled lucksack" argument, I don't think wasting SB space on Dredge Return targets you'll never use is as bad as the other atrocities we've seen.

[badjuju]

Eh, as much as I push the "your average dredge player is an unskilled lucksack" argument, I don't think wasting SB space on Dredge Return targets you'll never use is as bad as the other atrocities we've seen.

To completely debunk the 'unskilled lucksack' argument for this particular case, the pilot of that list has placed many times in Europe with several variants of dredge over the years. I can find two instances in the past month where he piloted LED/Looting, both great finishes in decent-sized tournaments (53 and 131 players respectively).

[jares]

To completely debunk the 'unskilled lucksack' argument for this particular case, the pilot of that list has placed many times in Europe with several variants of dredge over the years. I can find two instances in the past month where he piloted LED/Looting, both great finishes in decent-sized tournaments (53 and 131 players respectively).
Given that it seems like this Adria person seems to know what he's doing, the question I would like to ask is this: is one Dread Return enough to support one DR target in the deck? I guess that the answer to that "yes", but I always assumed that it would be somewhat unsafe given that you're less likely to get the Dread Return when you need it. I would certainly like to look into the figures that would support/disprove that conclusion.

I'd be interested to know if anyone might disagree, and why.

Cheers,
jares

[Michael Keller]

Hypothetical question time: With a generally overall solid list and sideboard, a working knowledge of how to mulligan, a little luck and some good draws, do you think this deck is near unbeatable?

[feline]

Hypothetical question time: With a generally overall solid list and sideboard, a working knowledge of how to mulligan, a little luck and some good draws, do you think this deck is near unbeatable?

Technically in some environments, yes, but that's sorta obvious (Basically metagames unprepared with no GY hate)

But as far as Real legacy environments go, unbeatable is too strong of a word to say, even game 1's are not 100% whether people have main deck scavenging ooze & other tricks or not, but game ones are definitely in our favor.

I can say that if you want to play a deck that forces your opponent to answer you or you'll blast them out of the water, this is one of those decks to push with.

[joemauer]

Hypothetical question time: With a generally overall solid list and sideboard, a working knowledge of how to mulligan, a little luck and some good draws, do you think this deck is near unbeatable?

You having played in the most recent Starcitygames tourney, you are asking the rest of us this question!

I think the deck is well positioned right now in the meta. When half of your opponents use surgical extraction as the go to hate card it makes cabal therapy better.

The only matchup I feel I could lose no matter what I do right is Reanimator and of course belcher. Not saying Reanimator is an auto loss, just if they get a good enough draw there is nothing we can do.

So all you need is a little luck. You know, avoid that kid packing the playset of Leylines and surgical extractions during a tourney. Also, hope your deck doesn't poop on itself.

The biggest reason I think dredge hasn't been a DTB lately is the difficultly of playing the deck.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Hypothetical question time: With a generally overall solid list and sideboard, a working knowledge of how to mulligan, a little luck and some good draws, do you think this deck is near unbeatable?

It's really strong right now. The only dangerous hatecard around atm imo is a very early Ooze [in worst case with mana open] on turn 2. Other than that, with very tight plays, and a little bit of luck... Yeah it is really really strong. I wouldn't say unbeatable but above-average strong.

[badjuju]

Given that it seems like this Adria person seems to know what he's doing, the question I would like to ask is this: is one Dread Return enough to support one DR target in the deck? I guess that the answer to that "yes", but I always assumed that it would be somewhat unsafe given that you're less likely to get the Dread Return when you need it. I would certainly like to look into the figures that would support/disprove that conclusion.

I'd be interested to know if anyone might disagree, and why.

Cheers,
jares

From what I've seen of Adria's older lists, he's always favored more consistent dredge lists over FKZ / LED lists, which would explain why his 75 leans more towards a grindier quadlazer. The DR isn't meant to be a "focus", and definitely not something he cares to hit every game. See it as more of a "fallback" plan. The difference in having 1 instead of 0 DRs though adds that dynamism to the deck that quadlazer is lacking. I think he recognized this fact and has found a way to incorporate a singleton into his list without giving up too much consistency.


Hypothetical question time: With a generally overall solid list and sideboard, a working knowledge of how to mulligan, a little luck and some good draws, do you think this deck is near unbeatable?

I've always been a proponent of the notion that the only thing holding dredge back from being a true elite deck is itself. More often than not, the luck involved with your dredges will dictate your wins and losses. Yes, there are other factors: format, hate, playskill, etc, but not many other decks in the format can actually lose to itself. I think the idea of not having absolute control of your deck also drives top players who strive for consistency away from this archetype as well. When the deck works, it's pretty much unbeatable. When it doesn't, it's very much dead in the water.

[jares]

From what I've seen of Adria's older lists, he's always favored more consistent dredge lists over FKZ / LED lists, which would explain why his 75 leans more towards a grindier quadlazer. The DR isn't meant to be a "focus", and definitely not something he cares to hit every game. See it as more of a "fallback" plan. The difference in having 1 instead of 0 DRs though adds that dynamism to the deck that quadlazer is lacking. I think he recognized this fact and has found a way to incorporate a singleton into his list without giving up too much consistency.

I like how you put it, as I also went through a phase where I used only one Dread Return with no DR targets in the main deck, and this build also successfully had me perform as well as my other builds. The difference, though, is that I packed an extra DR in the SB for whenever I would insert a DR target, fearing that having only one DR in the deck would induce situations where I would have the DR target without having a DR.

This (playing only 1 DR amidst several possible DR targets in my 75-card list) is something that I honestly haven't tested/calculated too thoroughly, and I'll surely be looking into it.

Kind Regards,
jares

[Gui]

Basically, either parts you add to the deck increase the chance of DRing a DR target, whether you add a DR or a target, by the same amount. Since that's the case, I would advice adding DRs instead of targets when you already have the target you want, because, at least, DR can work without a DR target.

[jares]

Basically, either parts you add to the deck increase the chance of DRing a DR target, whether you add a DR or a target, by the same amount. Since that's the case, I would advice adding DRs instead of targets when you already have the target you want, because, at least, DR can work without a DR target.
I agree. In fact, some would argue that Dread Return isn't there for the DR target at all! :tongue:

My concern, though, is how well/badly the deck is affected by the different "DR to DR-Target ratios" being used. This might just be nit-picking, though, and it might not even be worth bothering about; it's just a matter of curiosity for now, but I could be proven otherwise given that we're dealing with around 4-7 (or maybe higher?) cards in our 75-card builds.

Cheers,
jares

[Michael Keller]

The reason I asked the question I did was to purposely insinuate that perhaps the person piloting the list with only one Dread Return befell a series of good matchups, played tight, and had good draws. If you can sustain that with this deck, you're going to have a good run.

Perhaps the strength of the player overshadows the strength of the list in this instance.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Perhaps the strength of the player overshadows the strength of the list in this instance.

This is how I've felt about Dredge for a while. I'm certain the core of Dredge is strong enough to topple any opponent with tight play. That's why I'm not a big fan of DR-targets. My list is 59/60 the same as his, fwiw.

[Mindlash]

The reason I asked the question I did was to purposely insinuate that perhaps the person piloting the list with only one Dread Return befell a series of good matchups, played tight, and had good draws. If you can sustain that with this deck, you're going to have a good run.

Perhaps the strength of the player overshadows the strength of the list in this instance.

That's true. The Dredge Core by itself is pretty strong already. All the hate is irrelevant if your Opp does not draw into it even by mulliganing and you have god draws all day long.

Of course there are lists with maximized chances on good hands. But even these lists may fail you in critical moments.

For me the Flayerlist works best at the moment. I get a lot better hands with it then with the Quodlaserlist which seems a bit weird by analyzing the lists in a mathmatical matter :-)

Recently a Manaless List Top3'ed which also states what Hollywood said. Lucky matchups (in this case no Leylines/Cages/perhaps Combo) may alter the outcome. The Manaless list is also not as good at mulliganing as the LEDlists are. In fact its pretty much unable to mulligan at all. All the pilot could do is play tight and prey for no Leylines/bad hand.

I encountert 3 zero turn Leylines lately in G3 while I was double-extracted G2 right off the bat and there was not much I could do against it despite PImp/Moeba/Thugh beatdown which was a bit to slow against Hive Mind (although I had some time because a could have paid at least two pacts with my Lands/LEDs :-P). And I had potential 1 Turnkill hands in both games (kept LED in cuz I didn't set him on Leylines).

Sometimes Dredge just dies to massive hate. Sometimes it dies to itself. And then there are those days where you play tight, draw good, dredge better and are unstoppable :-)

[jares]

Perhaps the strength of the player overshadows the strength of the list in this instance.
Could it be that this statement is true more often than we realize? In fact, with the variety of configurations available (LED/less, DR/less, DR-target/less, etc.) that have subtle differences and are all able to place well, I won't be surprised if this statement will actually able to explain why all these lists are doing well.

Someone mentioned this a while back (in the old thread I think): "We should all choose the configuration that works for us and do our best to understand how to pilot our chosen build to victory" (or something like that).

Cheers,
jares

[Klazam]

I think that if the pilot is good, and the deck doesnt crap all over itself, it will win. The reason is that the deck offers a variety of ways to attack other decks. It can shift roles in matchups like no other deck can- It can play combo v. aggro, aggro v. control, and even control v. combo. Name any other deck that can do that.

Also- the extra benefit: nearly nobody will test aganist dredge because it's a unenjoyable experience for 98% of people, so often they are left at a loss at how to play the matchup. These people think that if you jam in 4 graveyard hate cards in the side, you will win v. Dredge. This isn't true, to our benefit.

I've had many people misplay horribly because they didnt know what my cards did- ex: people not knowing how to deal with Bridges, Surgical Extraction on the wrong card, popping a crypt early.

[badjuju]

The reason I asked the question I did was to purposely insinuate that perhaps the person piloting the list with only one Dread Return befell a series of good matchups, played tight, and had good draws. If you can sustain that with this deck, you're going to have a good run.

Perhaps the strength of the player overshadows the strength of the list in this instance.

I agree with all your statements (although the same could be said for any deck I think haha), but I don't feel like his list is suboptimal in any way. His first placement in March led to a few changes to his sideboard for the LCL tournament. Seems to me that this list was born from experience and testing. But then again, Dredge is an archetype that is completely open to interpretation. While we are here discussing the difference of +/- 5 cards and the dynamism added by DR, we forget that that the core of the deck is fundamentally the same. Regardless of the list, tight play and good draws/dredges will bring you out on top.

[Koby]

@ Yesmilord
I've changed my mind, I want to test against Dredge for a good 20-30 matches to get a better understanding of the its matchups. Sign me up for the Masochist Express. *Choo choo, All aboard!*

From a Maverick perspective, what cards does this deck fear the most? How does it best address them?

[badjuju]

@ Yesmilord
I've changed my mind, I want to test against Dredge for a good 20-30 matches to get a better understanding of the its matchups. Sign me up for the Masochist Express. *Choo choo, All aboard!*

From a Maverick perspective, what cards does this deck fear the most? How does it best address them?

@Koby
Totally down :) I'll see you at the shop sometime and we'll grind this one out.


As for the Maverick perspective, there are a few things that we're afraid of, but it's mostly Scavenging Ooze. Thalia can be rough if you back it with Wasteland, Teeg shuts down Breakthrough and Dread Return, and you can always GSZ for Dryad Arbor, then pop a Wasteland on it to nuke our bridges.

People who expect to run into a lot of Maverick opt to run 1 Darkblast MB to deal with Ooze G1. I personally have not tested against Maverick, but from what I've read, people are starting to opt a strategy that keeps in LEDs to maintain the chance of a more explosive start. Because Ooze is constrained by mana, you can actually just outrace it sometimes, especially if you have a Dread Return plan. The Maverick player will have to exile too many cards and won't be able to keep up.

That's how I've seen it. But anyone else please feel free to correct me or add ontop of this.

[jares]

People who expect to run into a lot of Maverick opt to run 1 Darkblast MB to deal with Ooze G1.
Unless I'm missing something here, I don't find this to be very reliable, as playing Darkblast this way will still require 2 lands. I believe that Firestorm is that card that you would want for this job.

I hope that helps.

Regards,
jares

[joemauer]

From a Maverick perspective, what cards does this deck fear the most? How does it best address them?

Game one, the biggest worries are a quick jitte or scavenging ooze. The best way to address that is to overwhelm as quick as possible with as many zombies as possible. Dread Returning a big troll doesn't usually work in this matchup because of MoM.

Game Two, the enlightened tutor into crypt/wheel usually causes problems. Again, speed is the best way to address this, backuped with chains/claims.

Oh and wasteland can randomly put us out the game if we are not careful. At the same time I have seen wasteland as a time walk for me when I have multiple lands.

[HokusSchmokus]

Also, Knight can be devastating if dropped turn 2 on the play.

[Vandalize]

LED lists + Flayer just poop on Maverick like there's no tomorrow. Just mulligan into some average-good hand, and the make a shit load of zombies before they can interact. They usually mulligan into some form of hate (mostly Enlightened Tutor), so they usually keep a slow hand + hate. If they draw godlike, bad for you, good for them.

The latest Maverick lists are strict GW (for that Thalia motherf***er), and dropping Stoneforge Mystic package and upping Umezawa's Jitte count. Play tight, and you won't struggle. Beware of Wasteland.

Firestorm is just a house against this deck, as well. Firestorm EOT hitting 1~2 creatures, followed by Breakthrough (or some kind of draw spell) is probably the best play you can make.

On another note: I've been proxying Griselbrand, and it's just awesome. Pretty much like Flayer, that bud just wins the game as soon as DR resolves. You just dredge what's left from your deck, and win. I've been in a funny situation, where I resolved Griselbrand, and my foe ate it with Swords to Plowshares... Drawing 7 cards for 0 life was something to remember.

[Mindlash]

LED lists + Flayer just poop on Maverick like there's no tomorrow. Just mulligan into some average-good hand, and the make a shit load of zombies before they can interact. They usually mulligan into some form of hate (mostly Enlightened Tutor), so they usually keep a slow hand + hate. If they draw godlike, bad for you, good for them.

The latest Maverick lists are strict GW (for that Thalia motherf***er), and dropping Stoneforge Mystic package and upping Umezawa's Jitte count. Play tight, and you won't struggle. Beware of Wasteland.

Firestorm is just a house against this deck, as well. Firestorm EOT hitting 1~2 creatures, followed by Breakthrough (or some kind of draw spell) is probably the best play you can make.

On another note: I've been proxying Griselbrand, and it's just awesome. Pretty much like Flayer, that bud just wins the game as soon as DR resolves. You just dredge what's left from your deck, and win. I've been in a funny situation, where I resolved Griselbrand, and my foe ate it with Swords to Plowshares... Drawing 7 cards for 0 life was something to remember.

Did you still use Tarnished Citadel with Griselbrand? I think I will switch to Undiscovered Paradise but I don't like getting it to my hand again and again.

How did the lifeloss from Griselbrands ability affect your games? Were there moments you DR'ed him but could not pay for his draw effect? How often does this occure?

I remember some games against Burn, where I never struggle at winnig cuz I'm one turn faster in general. It seems to me that Griselbrand would demand to much in such situations although I am eager to use him once he becomes legal.

Edit: I played Firestorms in my Maindeck / Sideboard with the old Konkurs-List (LEDless) and they where just bonkers against Maverick and of course other creature decks too. I stopped using it since the LED lists because there seem to be not much synergy at all :-/ Never testet them in LED Dredge though. Flayer seemed just sufficient to me with his build in Firestorm.

[264505]

Did you still use Tarnished Citadel with Griselbrand? I think I will switch to Undiscovered Paradise but I don't like getting it to my hand again and again.

How did the lifeloss from Griselbrands ability affect your games? Were there moments you DR'ed him but could not pay for his draw effect? How often does this occure?

I remember some games against Burn, where I never struggle at winnig cuz I'm one turn faster in general. It seems to me that Griselbrand would demand to much in such situations although I am eager to use him once he becomes legal.

Edit: I played Firestorms in my Maindeck / Sideboard with the old Konkurs-List (LEDless) and they where just bonkers against Maverick and of course other creature decks too. I stopped using it since the LED lists because there seem to be not much synergy at all :-/ Never testet them in LED Dredge though. Flayer seemed just sufficient to me with his build in Firestorm.

Wouldn't the fact you just reanimated a 7/7 with flying and lifelink be enough against burn if you are a turn faster?

[Mindlash]

Wouldn't the fact you just reanimated a 7/7 with flying and lifelink be enough against burn if you are a turn faster?

Haha his awesome ability just blinded me so I did oversee the obvious...you are right. Touché :D

Edit: But there are still some games in which I reanimated Flayer at about 3 life and could win instantly this turn, while Griselbrand demands me to wait one more round :-/ Not that I care much about burn...but it was something that came to my mind while reading the 7 lifeloss. Its totally possible to win against Burn without a DR-Target at all with some good Cabals though.

[Mojeh]

Hey guys, I am going to play a small local tournament next weekend, but I don't have access to LED just yet, can you help me out here?
I am expecting Maverick, Elves, Burn, High Tide, Pox and maybe some sort of Tendrils.deck.

Due to Mavericks and Elves, I thought maybe main decked Firestorms would help.

15 Lands (3 Tarnished Citadel)

12 Dredgers (1 Darkblast)

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Firestorm
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
3 Ichorid
2 Dread Return
4 Putrid Imp

SB:
4 Nature's Claim
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Tireless Tribe
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Ichorid
1 Memory Journey

The TTribes are there in the place of Firestorms, since they can help fighting grave-sweepers, and it's also quite better than Firestorm against non-creature combo.
I used to play 4 Ichorid MD, but I am afraid DR is better at racing Maverick... I even thought about playing 1 target MD.

Thanks in advance.

[joemauer]

@Mojeh:
Firestorm maindecked is the best thing you can do to fight Maverick without LED.

Since you are fighting a lot of combo decks, you may want to fit a Sphinx of Lost Truths and Dread Return #3 in the Sideboard.

[HokusSchmokus]

@Mojeh:
Firestorm maindecked is the best thing you can do to fight Maverick without LED.

Since you are fighting a lot of combo decks, you may want to fit a Sphinx of Lost Truths and Dread Return #3 in the Sideboard.
I think Sadistic Hypnotist is the target of choice here.Without a 3rd Return.

[Vandalize]

Actually, the best target would be Iona #2. Sadistic Hypnotist is too situational, and Iona is a turn 2 clock (backed up with Ichorids).

[Michael Keller]

For those interested, it appears as though Damon Whitby (Parcher) has won the NELC event at Jupiter Games playing LED Dredge.

[badjuju]

For those interested, Damon Whitby (Parcher) won the NELC event at Jupiter Games. I was unable to attend.

List? :tongue:

[Michael Keller]

List? :tongue:

That's all Jupiter. I'm not sure I just turned it on and saw it.

I'm also attending a big event in Baltimore tomorrow. I'll be sure to write up a report for you guys.

[HokusSchmokus]

Hypothetical question time: With a generally overall solid list and sideboard, a working knowledge of how to mulligan, a little luck and some good draws, do you think this deck is near unbeatable?

Without question. As it has been shown several times before, there is a perfect 75 for every meta, if you find it with dredge you are only.beatable by lady luck

[Mojeh]

Thank you guys for the feedback.
Well, actually it does make sense DR #3 and some other target, but do you think it's worth bringing them against Elves?
I mean, in this matchup they can come with some sort of hate (Cage), and I don't want to dilute my deck bringing 7 cards from the side board. So, I would just side in more DR and Iona/Hypnotist against Storm.

[GoldenCid]

So, I would just side in more DR and Iona/Hypnotist against Storm.

It's a good start.

On the other hand, why the hell one would want to run less than 4 ichorid? It's give us creatures for DR and CT...i know that sometime one want to see a dredger or a moeba instead of ichorid but it's so good...

[Mojeh]

@Goldencid: Yeah, Ichorid is really good, I used to run the full set main deck. The thing is, in this metagame I described, I believe the speed of 2nd DR is better than try to grind my opponent with Ichorids. I even thought about placing a DR target in my 60.

[GoldenCid]

@Goldencid: Yeah, Ichorid is really good, I used to run the full set main deck. The thing is, in this metagame I described, I believe the speed of 2nd DR is better than try to grind my opponent with Ichorids. I even thought about placing a DR target in my 60.

But a do run a second DR target. In fact, FKZ, Woodfall primus and ETW are my DR targets...

[Mojeh]

But a do run a second DR target. In fact, FKZ, Woodfall primus and ETW are my DR targets...

Yeah, but I guess we don't have enough slots to play 4 Ichorid, 2 DR and a target MD.
I really don't want to cut any dredgers or lands.

[badjuju]

People are beginning to shave Ichorids because the drawing power of LED + Looting often renders the Ichorids useless. I'm not saying the Ichorids are unimportant, they're actually extremely important, but the DR-heavy lists eschew running more than 2 because they don't really come into effect till games 2 and 3. And even in those games, looting decks have been banking on just going for raw speed game 3 sometimes.

On another note, I've been playing Adria's quadlazer + 1 DR list recently. I actually do miss having a DR target MD. Have my hands been more consistent? Probably, but it's hard to tell. I actually think LED mulligans just as well as LEDless, because if mull into a 5 card hand with LED, you're still good to go. LED is the most broken enabler in the deck, and I am always giddy to have it in my hand. I might move back to 2DR + 1 enabler target (Witness/Sun Ttan/Griselbrand/Sphinx). I find that I mainly just want to flip my deck G1 so that I can at least triple Therapy my opponent into oblivion. I really, really wish I had 14 lands MD along with 4 Therapy MD. There's really just not enough room :(

[Mindlash]

People are beginning to shave Ichorids because the drawing power of LED + Looting often renders the Ichorids useless. I'm not saying the Ichorids are unimportant, they're actually extremely important, but the DR-heavy lists eschew running more than 2 because they don't really come into effect till games 2 and 3. And even in those games, looting decks have been banking on just going for raw speed game 3 sometimes.

On another note, I've been playing Adria's quadlazer + 1 DR list recently. I actually do miss having a DR target MD. Have my hands been more consistent? Probably, but it's hard to tell. I actually think LED mulligans just as well as LEDless, because if mull into a 5 card hand with LED, you're still good to go. LED is the most broken enabler in the deck, and I am always giddy to have it in my hand. I might move back to 2DR + 1 enabler target (Witness/Sun Ttan/Griselbrand/Sphinx). I find that I mainly just want to flip my deck G1 so that I can at least triple Therapy my opponent into oblivion. I really, really wish I had 14 lands MD along with 4 Therapy MD. There's really just not enough room :(

I am going back and forth between Quadlaser and DR Targets. Just cannot decide which list to play. I like Quadlaser alot, but I am also missing the DR Targets from time to time.

Played a small tournament yesterday with a DR-List and half of my wins were due to my DR Target (this time Flayer). I might have won from this position with the Quadlaser-list because of the multiple Cabals that came hand in hand with the Deckflip and a bunch of zombies. But there are some matches I just want to win right of the bat, which is impossible with Quadlaser (although 2-3 resolved Cabals, 1-2 Bridges and 2-3 Ichorids in the graveyard equal a win most of the time even without DR+Target).

[Tammit67]

Gravetroll is a great DR target, and the only real one I have preboard. Still running 2 DR main though, since getting Iona or what have you is often key after board.

[badjuju]

I am going back and forth between Quadlaser and DR Targets. Just cannot decide which list to play. I like Quadlaser alot, but I am also missing the DR Targets from time to time.

Played a small tournament yesterday with a DR-List and half of my wins were due to my DR Target (this time Flayer). I might have won from this position with the Quadlaser-list because of the multiple Cabals that came hand in hand with the Deckflip and a bunch of zombies. But there are some matches I just want to win right of the bat, which is impossible with Quadlaser (although 2-3 resolved Cabals, 1-2 Bridges and 2-3 Ichorids in the graveyard equal a win most of the time even without DR+Target).

I've been going back and forth between a list that's similar to Hollywood's and Adria's quadlazer. I personally think that this deck DOES need to run Dread Return, even if it's a 1-of. No other card in the archetype can create so much instantaneous pressure. The reason why I like an enabler over Flayer is two-fold:

1. 3DR vs 2DR: freeing up one slot may not be THAT big of a deal in the long run, but it is to me. This allows me to run the 3rd Ichorid, which is instrumental in grindy games. I could probably get away with 2, but between having an extra Therapy, land, or Ichorid, I chose Ichorid.

2. 3 Therapies is OK G1: an enabler allows you to dig real deep, and you'll virtually hit all 3 of your therapies. If you don't, you'll at least hit two. With a Flayer list, you either have the Flayer kill or you don't. Not taking anything away from Flayer, just saying that I'd rather be able to dump my whole deck more consistently and reach my Therapies while not running a third DR. It's preference.

Lastly, quadlazer in its purest form runs no DRs. I think this is a mistake in the general metagame right now. There are plenty of matchups that you can just destroy by flipping your deck the first turn with an enabler, or killing them outright with Flayer/FKZ. Some decks opt to run both enabler and kill. By having 2+ DRs MD, you also boost the consistency of reanimating your two board all-stars: Iona and Elesh Norn. For these reasons, I'm stick with a 2 DR package for now a la Hollywood.

Next up is the board. From what I see, Tormod's Crypt and Surgical Extraction are the current most common hate cards across all archetypes.


People have been forgoing adding extra lands in their boards. I feel like I really want to have at least one more in there (to be @ 14 post-board). Necessary?

Is it necessary to diversify your angles of attack by adding Bloodghast / Nether Shadow / Gravecrawler against Snapcaster / Extraction decks?

What's better against Reanimator: Faerie Macabre or Coffin Purge?

How many Ancient Grudges is the right number?

[K1w1]

Reporting time.

Played:

Maindeck:

4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Golgari Thug
3x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Bridge from Below
3x Putrid Imp
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Careful Study
4x Faithless Looting
3x Breakthrough
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Cephalid Coliseum
4x City of Brass
3x Dread Return
1x Flayer of the Hatebound


Sideboard:

4x Leyline of the Void
4x Chain of Vapor
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Ray of Revelation
3x Nether Shadow
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite


Round 1 against Maverick /r

G1: Just win with Breakthrough + LED + Looting
G2: He has an early Ooze and i can't handle it.
G3: This was funny. I'm on the play and start with looting. Throw two dredgers in my graveyard and found with a troll this: 2x Moeba, 2x Therapy, 1 Bridge, +1.
therapied away an Ooze and two Knights. He played Dryad Arbor and Jitte. I dredged and dredged and he decided to attack with an equipped Arbor and i'm so lucky and have a Chain of Vapor to bounce the Jitte and therapy the jitte. Hit two of them !

2:1 (1:0)

Round 2 against NicFit

G1: I start with LED + breakthrough + looting. After the first dredge, he conceded.
G2: He has a Leyline of the Void and i only have one Ray of Revelation to handle this. I lost, because he also had Engineered Explosives + Ooze ( wtf )
G3: I boarded Chains against the Leylines, but didn't find one. This was a bit unlucky. I played therapy and said Veteran Explorer. I hit. He has 2x Therapy and a Birds of Paradise in his hand. I have Putrid Imp and Ray of Revelation. But i only have one land. Topdecked a Looting and found therapy + land. Too bad, because i couldn't therapy his therapies to save my ray of revelation.

1:2 (1:1)

Round 3 against NicFit...

G1: After losing my three bridges, due to flashback therapy with dryad arbor, i had enough ichorids to win the game + Flayer. He had 5 lands in his hand + Grave Titan.
G2: Again Leyline + Ooze + Jace.
G3: I had a nice start again and win, due to Chain of Vapor the explorer. He was at 10 life and had a arbor + explorer. I had 5 tokens + one ichorid in the grave. So i think this was the best choice.

2:1 (2:1)

Round 4 against Maverick ( cmon... )
G1: Turn 2 kill
G2: Turn 2 kill

2:0 (3:1)

Round 5 against Reanimator ( was paired down to one who had 7 points )

G1: I win the game, because he forgot which deck i play (we know each other ). So he kept a bad hand and i win with therapies.
G2: I have Chain of Vapor, but he countered it. ( Elesh Norn wins )
G3: I have Leyline of the Void and start with a non-lander and win due to LED + looting in my hand and the right therapy : Show and Tell!

2:1 (4:1)

Round 6 against Esper Stonblade

G1: I play LED and he countered it with Spell Pierce ( was on the play ), i play looting and found what i need afterwards.
G2: I boarded the Nether Shadows, because this was the only game i played against Surgical Extraction. I boarded out one of three Ichorids and i had to laugh after seeing, that he extracted the Ichorid in my grave. I dredged into Moeba, Moeba, Shadow, Bridge, Dread Return. GG, because i flashbacked the DR into flayer into 9 dmg. He was at 3 life and i thought a bit. I have one Shadow who would come back next turn, so i decided to therapy myself. Two trolls entering the grave into three dmg due to flayer xD

2:0 ( 5:1 )

Went 2. out of 38 and won a Scrubland <3

But seriously.. 2 Maverick, 2 NicFit, 1 Reanimator?? -.-

If you have any questions, just ask.

K1w1

[badjuju]

snip

Nice finish :D

Digging your list, especially since you managed to fit in 3 Ichorids and 4 Therapy MB haha. Has land count ever been a problem for you? Also, how has Nether Shadow been for you in the Surgical Extraction matchups? (I know you only used it once in the tourney, but how is it in testing?)

[Gui]

http://jupitergamesonline.com/2012/4185/jupiter-games-northeast-legacy-championship-april-2012-top-8-legacy-decks

[badjuju]

http://jupitergamesonline.com/2012/4185/jupiter-games-northeast-legacy-championship-april-2012-top-8-legacy-decks

Cool list. Again, props for running 2 DR and 4 Therapies main :P A lot of Parcher's deck choices make sense, including the 10 rainbow lands. 2 DR MD still allows you to make sure that your post-board reanimation targets is more consistent.

[jares]

I actually think LED mulligans just as well as LEDless, because if mull into a 5 card hand with LED, you're still good to go.
As much as Dredge is one of the best (if not the best) in absorbing the drawback of having to mulligan, I believe that having to mulligan is, by itself, an effect of inconsistency.

As much as Dredge is also one of the decks with a very minimal dependency on land, the majority of the non-land cards that we want to see in our opening hand are still dependent on us having at least one land. Having said that, it's important to note that, if our LEDs are taking the place of our Gold Lands, then it will be evident in the figures that additional inconsistencies in our mulligans will be observable. Of course, these figures do not take in-game inconsistencies into consideration (e.g. bricking on chain-dredges, not getting a Dread Return when you already have your DR target, etc.), as these inconsistencies have their own set of behaviors and dependencies that have to be placed into the equation.

I hope that helps.

Kind Regards,
jares

[264505]

Dredge is on camera over at scg right now.

[NecroYawgmoth]

...and he plays badly.

Seriously, how is it possible that all the SCG T8 Dredgers are so terrible. :rolleyes:

[264505]

...and he plays badly.

Seriously, how is it possible that all the SCG T8 Dredgers are so terrible. :rolleyes:

According to the twitter feed, he borrowed the deck from a friend before the tourney. It is his first time playing the deck.

[dredgekid]

this dredge player..... on scg.... makes... me... want... to... vomit...

[dredgekid]

According to the twitter feed, he borrowed the deck from a friend before the tourney. It is his first time playing the deck.

this is what makes me want to cry. people who don't know what they are doing top 8ing events. Oh well, just shows dredge is so powerful that even someone who has no clue what they are doing can top 8 if they get lucky.

[badjuju]

Well that was excruciating to watch.

[Godmode]

Dredge carrying another dude to Top8...

[K1w1]

Nice finish :D

Digging your list, especially since you managed to fit in 3 Ichorids and 4 Therapy MB haha. Has land count ever been a problem for you? Also, how has Nether Shadow been for you in the Surgical Extraction matchups? (I know you only used it once in the tourney, but how is it in testing?)

Thanks.
Due to the fact, that i used the Nether Shadows once, i can't really say it. I think i will test it more.


And again Dredge with a Grindstone + Painter sideboard...

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

Hi there. I just went 5-0-2 in a tournament with 127 people in swiss with the standard german quadlaser list. So, after round 7 I was fifth. In the Top 8 I lost 1-2 to Solidarity with Leylines postboard. Here are the pairings:

Round 1: LED Dredge (2-1)
Round 2: Mono G Combo Elves (2-1; he was able to win with Ooze, but he used it wrong)
Round 3: GW Maverick (2-1)
Round 4: BW Tokens (2-0)
Round 5: Punishing Maverick (2-1)
Round 6: Uwr Control: Draw (I could have won, but after the standing of 1-1 I was able to win game three, but I didn't want to take the risk. So I offered hin, again, the draw [I was paired down, that's why he wanted to play] and he accepted)
Round 7: ID

Top 8: A friend of mine with Solidarity. As soon as we sat down, it was clear for us to split. Then I lost game 2-3 to Leyline and his counters and fast kill.

So, I won the half of an signed Mox Pearl and another half of an signed Ancestral. That was quite okay.

Maybe I'll write a report later this week.

[jares]

Hi there. I just went 5-0-2 in a tournament with 127 people in swiss with the standard german quadlaser list. So, after round 7 I was fifth. In the Top 8 I lost 1-2 to Solidarity with Leylines postboard. Here are the pairings:

Round 1: LED Dredge (2-1)
Round 2: Mono G Combo Elves (2-1; he was able to win with Ooze, but he used it wrong)
Round 3: GW Maverick (2-1)
Round 4: BW Tokens (2-0)
Round 5: Punishing Maverick (2-1)
Round 6: Draw (I could have won, but after the standing of 1-1 I was able to win game three, but I didn't want to take the risk. So I offered hin, again, the draw [I was paired down, that's why he wanted to play] and he accepted)
Round 7: ID

Top 8: A friend of mine with Solidarity. As soon as we sat down, it was clear for us to split. Then I lost game 2-3 to Leyline and his counters and fast kill.

So, I won the half of an signed Mox Pearl and another half of an signed Ancestral. That was quite okay.

Maybe I'll write a report later this week.
Congratulations on the finish. :cool:

It never surprises me whenever a quadlaser list wins - in fact, it never surprises me whenever a Dredge deck wins. Dredge wasn't in the DTB section for a few months, but I was never in doubt that that was going to change soon enough.

I have a few inquiries regarding the details that you posted:

What was your opponent for Round 6?
What did your sideboard look like?

Kind Regards,
jares

[jares]

Thanks.
Due to the fact, that i used the Nether Shadows once, i can't really say it. I think i will test it more.


And again Dredge with a Grindstone + Painter sideboard...
I'm not sure if I like the transformational sideboard for Dredge. It might be that I'm jsut not used to that kind of... flavor. :confused:

Regards,
jares

[jares]

http://jupitergamesonline.com/2012/4185/jupiter-games-northeast-legacy-championship-april-2012-top-8-legacy-decks
I'm thinking about whether or not the singleton Forsaken City in the sideboard was worth running over another Tarnished Citadel or Undiscovered Paradise. The choice is interesting though.

Cheers,
jares

[Mindlash]

Congratulations on the finish. :cool:

It never surprises me whenever a quadlaser list wins - in fact, it never surprises me whenever a Dredge deck wins. Dredge wasn't in the DTB section for a few months, but I was never in doubt that that was going to change soon enough.

I have a few inquiries regarding the details that you posted:

What was your opponent for Round 6?
What did your sideboard look like?

Kind Regards,
jares

The Sideboard was the "normal" Quadlaser Sideboard which can be seen in the in Hollywoods first post.

http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=6133

Edit: Metabreakdown: http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=6121

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

Congratulations on the finish. :cool:

It never surprises me whenever a quadlaser list wins - in fact, it never surprises me whenever a Dredge deck wins. Dredge wasn't in the DTB section for a few months, but I was never in doubt that that was going to change soon enough.

I have a few inquiries regarding the details that you posted:

What was your opponent for Round 6?
What did your sideboard look like?

Kind Regards,
jares

Thank you :-).

In round 6 I played against Uwr Control.

For the complete decklist see the link Mindlash posted :-).

[Mindlash]

Thank you :-).

In round 6 I played against Uwr Control.

For the complete decklist see the link Mindlash posted :-).

Forgot my manners...:-/ Congratz to your finish :-)

And gratz to Kiwi and Parcher as well. :-)

Combined with the two Dredgers in SCG Top 16 it seems like a good weekend for Dredge!

Looking forward to Hollywoods results in Baltimore :-)

[K1w1]

I'm not sure if I like the transformational sideboard for Dredge. It might be that I'm jsut not used to that kind of... flavor. :confused:

Regards,
jares

Yes, i was greedy this day. And i thought...hey, it isn't a big tourney, let's test!

[Mojeh]

@K1w1:
Congratz on your finish. May I ask how did you fit 8 cards against Reanimator post-board? I am having a little trouble in this matchup.
Thanks.

[K1w1]

@K1w1:
Congratz on your finish. May I ask how did you fit 8 cards against Reanimator post-board? I am having a little trouble in this matchup.
Thanks.

Thanks.

Like you said, i boarded 8 cards:

+4 Leyline of the Void
+4 Chain of Vapor

-3 Breakthrough
-1 Putrid Imp
-1 Ichorid
-1 Golgari Thug
-1 Dread Return
-1 Flayer of the Hatebound

I think it isn't worth to let breakthrough in the deck, because you still have eight (8) studies.

And Ichorid + Putrid Imp + Golgari Thug is called the Shave Tech :tongue::tongue: ( go back some pages and you know what i mean )

In addition, you don't want to give your opponent a Dread Return target, so you board out the Flayer. And this is the reason why i cut the Dread Return, you don't need three (3).

Hope i could help.

K1w1

[GnuHouse]

So I'm relatively new to Dredge and I'm preparing for my first tournament with it next weekend. I think I've settled on playing Quadlazer but I've got pretty much everything to build the different variants. That being said, just a few questions for the experts

1) Of all the Dredge variants is there any consensus on which one is the strongest against the current top tier decks (Esperblade, Maverick, RUG Delver, etc)?
2) In Quadlazer there is no maindeck DR. Any thoughts on adding a DR package to the SB? Good idea or bad?
3) Thoughts on Leyline of Sanctity? I saw the guy who top 8'd the SCG open was running them and was wondering the value of them to stop graveyard hate.

Thanks!

[joemauer]

So I'm relatively new to Dredge and I'm preparing for my first tournament with it next weekend. I think I've settled on playing Quadlazer but I've got pretty much everything to build the different variants. That being said, just a few questions for the experts

1) Of all the Dredge variants is there any consensus on which one is the strongest against the current top tier decks (Esperblade, Maverick, RUG Delver, etc)?
2) In Quadlazer there is no maindeck DR. Any thoughts on adding a DR package to the SB? Good idea or bad?
3) Thoughts on Leyline of Sanctity? I saw the guy who top 8'd the SCG open was running them and was wondering the value of them to stop graveyard hate.

Thanks!

1) Resounding no.

2) Check a page or two back. There is a list you described that got first place out of 131 people.

3) I have been considering adding Leyline back to my sideboard. Some reasons why:

Maverick likes to use one bog/crypt/wheel, but leyline can't stop the OOZE.

Canadian Thresh has been using tormod's crypt as the hate card of choice lately and that deck uses burn. Also, thresh is popular. I would just hate to get blown out by a Canadian Thresh player using Surgical or Leylines of the Void while Leylines of Sanctity do squat against those cards.

The card itself leads to some weird/bad hand keeps. Anyone else been using it lately?

[Mojeh]

Thanks.

Like you said, i boarded 8 cards:

+4 Leyline of the Void
+4 Chain of Vapor

-3 Breakthrough
-1 Putrid Imp
-1 Ichorid
-1 Golgari Thug
-1 Dread Return
-1 Flayer of the Hatebound

I think it isn't worth to let breakthrough in the deck, because you still have eight (8) studies.

And Ichorid + Putrid Imp + Golgari Thug is called the Shave Tech :tongue::tongue: ( go back some pages and you know what i mean )

In addition, you don't want to give your opponent a Dread Return target, so you board out the Flayer. And this is the reason why i cut the Dread Return, you don't need three (3).

Hope i could help.

K1w1

Yeah, you helped a lot.
Thank you very much ^^

[Que]

Thanks.
Due to the fact, that i used the Nether Shadows once, i can't really say it. I think i will test it more.


And again Dredge with a Grindstone + Painter sideboard...

Jason is a more than competent player... http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?p_first=Jason&p_last=Bulkowski

As you can see from his previous finishes he likes the ghast plan. While in AZ I got to see his feature match against Zach (Dream Halls) and ghasts more than carried their wait. G1 turn 2 Jason was able to mill 3 ghasts after a resolved Breakthrough (iirc) along with a couple of bridges recurring them and DRing FKZ ftw. Had Jason passed the turn back Zach would have S&T'ld the Dream Halls into play and gone off. FKZ wins on the spot and it is sometimes relevant as it was in this case. Passing the turn in Legacy can cost you the game and I'm sure thats why FKZ is still favored by some.

The ability to mill into 2 to 3 ghasts and simply return them via Undiscovered Paradise is less of a commitment than having to remove 2 to 3 black creatures to recur Ichorid. Sometimes it doesn't matter but over a couple of turns you will run out of black creatures. Ghasts recursive ability is a lot easier to accomplish. Especially when you have a Dakmor salvage to recur in the case your Und paradise gets nuked.

Thats not to say ghasts doesn't have its own vulnerabilities. It doesn't sacrifice itself at EOT and it can't block to net you zombies.

In his particular build, he had to accommodate his sideboard by having more mainboard lands and having to completely cut out Ichorid. I spoke to Jason and he told me he was giving the sideboard a shot. He won a couple of matches off of it iirc. At the end of the day he wasn't sure if he was going to stick with it. But it definitely throws a curveball for those people completely overloading on graveyard hate Game 2.

Ultimately what I'm saying is don't dismiss different builds and try them for yourselves. Jason missed top 8 by mere fractions in the Tiebreakers (quite lame).

[K1w1]

Ultimately what I'm saying is don't dismiss different builds and try them for yourselves. Jason missed top 8 by mere fractions in the Tiebreakers (quite lame).

I'm sorry.

[joemauer]

As you can see from his previous finishes he likes the ghast plan. While in AZ I got to see his feature match against Zach (Dream Halls) and ghasts more than carried their wait. G1 turn 2 Jason was able to mill 3 ghasts after a resolved Breakthrough (iirc) along with a couple of bridges recurring them and DRing FKZ ftw. Had Jason passed the turn back Zach would have S&T'ld the Dream Halls into play and gone off. FKZ wins on the spot and it is sometimes relevant as it was in this case. Passing the turn in Legacy can cost you the game and I'm sure thats why FKZ is still favored by some.



I did not see this feature match, but it sounds like a couple of Cabal Therapies would have allowed him to safely pass the turn. Am I correct?

[Koby]

I can speak for Jason since we finalized his list the nite before in the hotel room. We saw the plan for last week's 9th place finish and it seemed good enough to do a transformational sideboard against a wide swath of the hate. Jason has already been 100% on the Bloodghast plan since it allows more flexibility and "grinding" version. Sun Titan has more synergy with the Bloodghast plan too.

Jason did draw in the final round, being in 8th place with the next placing 2 less points and lower breakers. Chris Higashi gained 5!! tiebreaker points in the final round knocking Jason out by 0.058% points. It was heartbreaking :(

[feline]

I can speak for Jason since we finalized his list the nite before in the hotel room. We saw the plan for last week's 9th place finish and it seemed good enough to do a transformational sideboard against a wide swath of the hate. Jason has already been 100% on the Bloodghast plan since it allows more flexibility and "grinding" version. Sun Titan has more synergy with the Bloodghast plan too.

Jason did draw in the final round, being in 8th place with the next placing 2 less points and lower breakers. Chris Higashi gained 5!! tiebreaker points in the final round knocking Jason out by 0.058% points. It was heartbreaking :(

Ok, the first time when that guy did the painter's grindstone sideboard, that was pretty cool, but now that it has been successfully pulled off again, that's just downright awesome, now i have to seriously consider this strategy, when they don't see it coming, or even do but don't know if you're sideboarding it in or what, that's just awesome, it makes dredge even that much more fun to pull off wins with, grats to the top 16 finish there!

[Que]

I did not see this feature match, but it sounds like a couple of Cabal Therapies would have allowed him to safely pass the turn. Am I correct?

Presumably yes. I don't recall if he had hit any though.

[Gui]

Free-Article-The-Best-Combo-Deck-in-Legacy-(hint-it-s-Dredge) (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23627-Free-Article-The-Best-Combo-Deck-in-Legacy-(hint-it-s-Dredge)) by voltron00x

[Michael Keller]

Updated the primer with the new article. Very nice!

[Tammit67]

Updated the primer with the new article. Very nice!

That's because he mentioned your primer.

[Michael Keller]

Very cool!

[badjuju]

@Hollywood

In the article thread you were talking about Bloodghast and Ashen Ghoul. I guess this question can apply to anyone here too, but if you want to diversify your threats and slow down games 2 and 3 especially against Surgical Extraction decks, what has been working best for you?

I know Parcher ran Ashen Ghouls and Adria ran Gravecrawlers. It might be reflective of tendencies and playstyles, but it'd be cool to have some more discussion on it.

[Michael Keller]

@Hollywood

In the article thread you were talking about Bloodghast and Ashen Ghoul. I guess this question can apply to anyone here too, but if you want to diversify your threats and slow down games 2 and 3 especially against Surgical Extraction decks, what has been working best for you?

I know Parcher ran Ashen Ghouls and Adria ran Gravecrawlers. It might be reflective of tendencies and playstyles, but it'd be cool to have some more discussion on it.

My sideboard currently doesn't attempt to stray from the main deck plan as far as base-threats go. I have tried interchanging Ashen Ghoul and Gravecrawler in my board before, but the strategy was relatively weak, tbh.

I think the best strategy at fighting S.E. is to go at it head on with a set of Therapies.

[Final Fortune]

Bloodghast is restrictive, unless you're DDDing you're not going to have a land in your hand by the time you want to recur Bloodghast compared to having a land on the board by the time you want to recur Ashen Ghoul and Grave Crawler is completely conditional trash.

I think you'd all be better of with Nether Shadow and maybe an Ashen Ghoul, you need to be able to consistently recur something instead of relying on your deck to just be totally busted.

[NewDredgePlayer]

Do you guys think something similiar to below would work?

The goal is to have a consistent game 1 and use the 16 draw effects to combo out with painted stone game 2 when they bring in hate.

Lands 13
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Undiscovered Paradise

Spells 47
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 LED
4 Narcoemoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Ichorid
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
1 Dread Return

SB: 15
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
3 Unmask

Postboard 60
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Golgari Thug
4 LED
4 Putrid Imp
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Ichorid
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
3 Unmask

[COBBLER]

What do you guys think about entomb in dredge.

[Mindlash]

What do you guys think about entomb in dredge.

This reminds me of the fact that Hollywood has to implement a "no go" section into this Primer with Entomb on the top of it :-) Why is it that every month there is one guy putting entomb on topic again?

To answer the question in short form: Entomb has been discussed several times in the old Primer and was not deemed worthy. Though it seems good in theory at first it doensn't work out very well in Dredge.

Dredge has already problems fitting in all the good cards. You have to cut other cards to implement Entomb and all cards used by Dredge now do a much better job than Entomb does.

[NecroYawgmoth]

I like that we can count on someone to bring up entomb every 3 months, though;)

Well... He is right. =P

So sad that people don't even bother to read the first page of the new primer.

[Mindlash]

Well... He is right. =P

So sad that people don't even bother to read the first page of the new primer.

Perhaps Hokus has some Smurf-Accounts, bringing them up every 3 month in rotation to creep the hell out of us with some Entomb-Discussions :-P

[HokusSchmokus]

Damn, busted.
Also what's up with that "Grindstone-tech", seriously guys?And people PLAY it and think it's GOOD?

[(nameless one)]

Damn, busted.
Also what's up with that "Grindstone-tech", seriously guys?And people PLAY it and think it's GOOD?

I know how the PainterStone combo works but how exactly can you pull it off?

[HokusSchmokus]

I know how the PainterStone combo works but how exactly can you pull it off?

Well you board out relevant cards and board in 4 Grindstone. 4 Painter, 4 E-Tutor, 3 Unmask. Then you play your combo andtry to win.




O________o

[jares]

Damn, busted.
Also what's up with that "Grindstone-tech", seriously guys?And people PLAY it and think it's GOOD?
At the very least, subjectively speaking, the Grindstone flavor doesn't seem to be too... flavorful. It doesn't seem to be too "Dredg-y" at all. :tongue:

Cheers,
jares

[Gui]

Which secondary (well, tertiary) undead do you guys think is the best to use against extraction?
- Bloodghast
- Nether Shadow
- Gravecrawler
- Ashen Ghoul

Analysing the disadvantages of each:
Bloodghast needs a land in hand, but can possibly use Darkmor Salvage to recur it
Nether Shadow is probably the easiest to unearth, but 1/1 is kinda lame.
Gravecrawler demands a zombie token, and has to be cast = counterable.
Ashen Ghoul need both 3 creatures and the mana, but it's the most powerful, at 3/1.

What do you guys think?

[Izor]

Ashen Ghoul is by far the worst.

I personally don't like Gravecrawler as well, though I know that Adria Romero won a pretty big tournament in Spain lately and he was running them in his board.

Bloodghast is probably the best choice if you're running some Undiscovered Paradise anyway and if you're not afraid of running a Dakmor Salvage, which you'll have to.

I personally like Nether Shadow best, mainly because it can block and because it's pretty much guaranteed to come back each second turn. Being a 1/1 is not actually a big issue, because you basically just want it to die anyway and often you're even glad that they don't trade but just chump.

[Gui]

I personally don't like Gravecrawler as well, though I know that Adria Romero won a pretty big tournament in Spain lately and he was running them in his board.

I don't like Gravecrawler either


Ashen Ghoul is by far the worst.
I'm not that sure, I mean, it requires almost as much as nether shadow, and you usually have 1 land in play, so I'd say it's not that unusual to be able to unearth it, and it has power 3, being better than the options when bridge has been extracted


Bloodghast is probably the best choice if you're running some Undiscovered Paradise anyway and if you're not afraid of running a Dakmor Salvage, which you'll have to.
Yeah, I think so, although I don't think you need undiscovereds for that to work, just a couple of Darkmors seems ok.

Did you try Nether Shadow vs Extraction already? How did it go for you?

[Izor]

Well, I might be too harsh to AG, idk. But I really don't like those recurring threats that tie up mana each turn. I want to be able to bring back more than just one of them each turn and that seems nearly impossible if they cost B.

I have tested Shadow and Bloodghast against Extraction. Honestly, it didn't do a lot more than the whole Purify the Grave/Memory's Journey stuff, which was never really a good solution to the problem either. It takes up more slots from your deck, so I sometimes had to cut my other recurring threats down to make room (being left with say 3 Narcs, 2 Ichorids, 2 other). If your opponent has double Extraction, this might indeed do something.

I hate Dakmor Salvage too much to play Bloodghast tbh, so Nether Shadow would probably be my choice. In my testing, it worked kind of. But too often it doesn't save you anyway to have more diverse threats, and in other games they don't draw extraction and you would be glad you hadn't boarded out your main threats for them. What I can say is that recurring NS isn't a huge problem. You sually won't recur them every turn due to the absence of Phantasmagorian, but it's actually okay in most cases if he returns every second turn.

[EddieO]

Curious, what was actually sideboarded out for the painter package to come in. 15 cards in is a lot. I would assume bridge and most of the dredgers.

LMK...

Later EddieO

[Gui]

@Izor

Yeah, the thing about ashen ghoul is true, so using like ~3 ashen ghoul isn't very effective, since you'll recur only one each turn.

I feel like Nether Shadow is a less effective threat because it's not that great without Bridges, and thus it kind of rely on Dread Return. Maybe that's the deal, add NS in place of something other than Ichorid/Moeba and add some DR up to 2 or 3.

[Gui]

After seeing a lot of people say that Faithless Looting made the deck stable in conjunction to LED, I made this analysis on the "Brokeness" of some Dredge lists. It's not to be taken as last indicator of how good they are, but it at least proves that things are not -exactly- as people say.
I simulated (using Java) 500000 (arbitrarily high number (brute force, babe.)) opening hands for each list, and mulliganed until 4 whenever I didn't have the broken hand.


//Chance of Being Broken*:
Konkurs DRless**: 75,634%
Quadlaser: 75,392%
LED/LCL: 75,042%
Konkurs 1DR: 74,098%
LED/2DR: 72,835%
Konkurs 2DR: 71,752%
LED/voltron00x: 71,639%
LED/Flayer: 71,42%

*opening hands with either Land+Draw+Discard+Dredger or LED+Looting/Cephalid+Dredger.
**Konkurs 2DR, but with -2DR +1Thug +1Tireless

I think these are pretty known lists, some from winnings, and Konkurs w/ 2DR is just the plain old LEDless list with Faithless Looting instead of Tireless Tribe. The difference is marginal in chance to have a "broken" hand, and a lot of LED lists out there are currently worse than Konkurs with 2DR.

Indeed, Looting rised the chance of being broken, but LED doesn't have that much to do with it.


P.S.: I took into account that Cephalid Coliseum is only a land when you have CC + careful + draw + dredger as well, the method is kinda complex.
P.S.2: For those who doesn't know, Konkurs is LEDless

[jares]

After seeing a lot of people say that Faithless Looting made the deck stable in conjunction to LED, I made this analysis on the "Brokeness" of some Dredge lists. It's not to be taken as last indicator of how good they are, but it at least proves that things are not -exactly- as people say.
I simulated (using Java) 500000 (arbitrarily high number (brute force, babe.)) opening hands for each list, and mulliganed until 4 whenever I didn't have the broken hand.


//Chance of Being Broken*:
Konkurs DRless**: 75,634%
Quadlaser: 75,392%
LED/LCL: 75,042%
Konkurs 1DR: 74,098%
LED/2DR: 72,835%
Konkurs 2DR: 71,752%
LED/voltron00x: 71,639%
LED/Flayer: 71,42%

*opening hands with either Land+Draw+Discard+Dredger or LED+Looting/Cephalid+Dredger.
**Quadlazer list -4 LED +3 Tarnished Citadel +1 Darkblast

I think these are pretty known lists, some from winnings, and Konkurs w/ 2DR is just the plain old LEDless list with Faithless Looting instead of Tireless Tribe. The difference is marginal in change to have a "broken" hand, and a lot of LED lists out there are currently worse than Konkurs with 2DR.

Indeed, Looting rised the chance of being broken, but LED doesn't have that much to do with it.


P.S.: I took into account that Cephalid Coliseum is only a land when you have CC + careful + draw + dredger as well, the method is kinda complex.
Interesting results. I'd like to inquire about whether or not these figures were based on the premise that LED is already in your opening hand, and that the remaining 6 cards could possibly allow for a "broken" opening play.

My apologies if I missed something here, but I'm a little unsure about how you were able to observe that "LED doesn't have that much to do with it". Were any LEDless lists also simulated?

Kind Regards,
jares

[Gui]

Interesting results. I'd like to inquire about whether or not these figures were based on the premise that LED is already in your opening hand, and that the remaining 6 cards could possibly allow for a "broken" opening play.

My apologies if I missed something here, but I'm a little unsure about how you were able to observe that "LED doesn't have that much to do with it". Were any LEDless lists also simulated?

Kind Regards,
jares

Nope, LED was not in the opening hand, as I posted in bold:
*opening hands with either Land+Draw+Discard+Dredger or LED+Looting/Cephalid+Dredger.

All "Konkurs" lists didn't have LED.

[jares]

Which secondary (well, tertiary) undead do you guys think is the best to use against extraction?
- Bloodghast
- Nether Shadow
- Gravecrawler
- Ashen Ghoul

Analysing the disadvantages of each:
Bloodghast needs a land in hand, but can possibly use Darkmor Salvage to recur it
Nether Shadow is probably the easiest to unearth, but 1/1 is kinda lame.
Gravecrawler demands a zombie token, and has to be cast = counterable.
Ashen Ghoul need both 3 creatures and the mana, but it's the most powerful, at 3/1.

What do you guys think?
I believe that Nether Shadow gets the nod because its requirements for being able to come into play is the least conditional when compared to the other options.

Bloodghast has the benefit of being the easiest to put into play in multiples, but is also the most demanding in terms of how you'll need to construct the rest of the deck (which I personally dislike).

Ashen Ghoul and Gravecrawler have the most undesirable drawback of requiring mana to be able to get into play, but between the two, I would prefer Ashen Ghoul because it's less dependent on the other cards in the deck, it has greater power, it can block when necessary, and its ability evades non-Stifle counterspells (though I wouldn't also play more than [2x] of it in the deck).

Cheers,
jares

[jares]

Nope, LED was not in the opening hand, as I posted in bold:
*opening hands with either Land+Draw+Discard+Dredger or LED+Looting/Cephalid+Dredger.

All "Konkurs" lists didn't have LED.
Noted. My apologies for having missed the obvious points (I really need to get some sleep). :cry:

After seeing a lot of people say that Faithless Looting made the deck stable in conjunction to LED, I made this analysis on the "Brokeness" of some Dredge lists.
It seems to me that it might be more accurate to say that Faithless Looting, as a major upgrade to Deep Analysis or even Desperate Ravings, allowed LED to be stable enough to warrant inclusion again, as it no longer needs to depend on cards that aren't easily "cast-able" even without it. Your results also seem to suggest the same (unless I've badly misunderstood again :confused:).

Cheers,
jares

[Gui]

It seems to me that it might be more accurate to say that Faithless Looting, as a major upgrade to Deep Analysis or even Desperate Ravings, allowed LED to be stable enough to warrant inclusion again, as it no longer needs to depend on cards that aren't easily "cast-able" even without it. Your results also seem to suggest the same (unless I've badly misunderstood again :confused:).

Thing is, LEDless DRless is technically the same (actually a marginally better) than LED DRless, which is why I said LED doesn't have that much to do with the increased stability.

[Mojeh]

@Gui: Good job on the numbers, thank you for sharing your results with us. Correct me if I am wrong, but your analysis has to do with consistency, not speed, right?
The main edge LED Dredge has, in my point of view, is speed, in order to race Ooze, and other combo decks, so the fact LEDless is as consistent as/more consistent still doesn't help you against a turn 2 Ooze.

[Michael Keller]

Updated the OP with some videos and additional information. Still a work in progress.

[Izor]

I appreciate the work, Gui. It's some good piece of information.

However, after trying to objectively and validly compare LED and LEDless builds I think that there are just way too many factors that would have to be taken into account.

I did some testing a few weeks ago, when I goldfished 50 hands with Quadlaser and DRless/LEDless. LEDless appeared to be way better on all accounts. Today I know that one thing that made LED look worse than it would actually have been in a real game scenario was that I always tried to go off as fast as possible when I had the LED in my hand. But in a real game, you can very often wait one more turn and 'go off' in a much more threatening way. What I want to say with this is that it is imho impossible to take everything into account, thus it's impossible to say which build is better.

It's well possible that your way of doing it is better and more representative for the actual power level of the deck variants. In that case, it does not surprise me that much that LEDless seemed so strong. I have always said that LEDless is not invalidated by the printing of Looting and I still think that LEDless has a whole lot going for it in the current metagame. People are slowly moving away from the Snapcaster-Extraction hate again (RUG Delver often doesn't play it at all now), and the more artifact based hate we see ou there, the better LEDless is due to the discard dorks. LED folds to a Crypt plus pressure, Tireless Tribe often laughs at it. That's a fact.


Mojeh brings up a good point as well. Your results factor in the 'going off' potential of every opening hand, but they don't quite show how often LED is one turn faster because it's discard outlet is actually a draw spell at the same time and costs 0 mana on top of it. Likewise, you don't see what happens when the opening hands are bad. Land+LED+Dredger is horrible, while Tribe instead of LED is an easy keep after some mulligans. As I said, it's impossible to take everything into account.


Still, thanks for doing this. When I do another testing like this, I'll post it here as well.

[Gui]

@Mojeh and @Izor

Thanks for the replies.

Yes, indeed, as I said, it's not all about this analysis, but it's better than the regular "This is better, this is not" we usually have here. Most of the things, if not all, that Izor pointed I have already thought about. I just wanted to point out why saying "The interaction between Looting and LED put the deck to where it is" is not necessarily right.

About the speed, LED can go off on turn 1, while LEDless in these configuration shown would go off only @ turn 2. But against a turn 2 Ooze, it's almost the same, because they will only activate it at turn 3. I know there are corner cases (a lot of them), but going off turn 2 is usually just as good.

Some other example of things that can be considered is how Konkurs can more easily fight Grafdiggers and LotV (although still hard) and how can LED + flayer, even tho less consistant, can turn1 kill a TES player (although way less often than people say so).

Also, just a sidenote, speed and consistancy go along together. If you can race as fast as T1 in one game and have to go T10 in other 9 games, your deck is not really fast. This is an exageration to show that more consistancy can mean more speed.

Lastly, and probably most important, Quadlazer list with -1 ichorid +1 dredger probably has the most amazing Brokeness chance, but I don't have the code I used to simulate right now to tell for sure. Just thought about it later.

[Mojeh]

I've been playing LEDless for a very long time, and I always play lists focusing on consistency. However, a DRless-LEDless list can't actually fight a turn 2 Ooze.
Let's say you make about 6 zombies and use a couple os therapies (and also entomb some Ichorids, of course) and your opponent has a Ooze and 2 tapped lands (or even 1 untapped), do you think your victory is really ensured? I guess not.
If your opponent play one ore more threats, while keep reaping your GY, you'll probably lose.
If you can actually go off turn 2, which we know is not that easy.

This is what I've learned by my own experience, playing 15 lands, 4 Ichorid, 1 DR and 13 Dredgers, i don't know about yours. So, I am testing with +1 DR/-1 Dredger, and maybe a target MD, alongside 4 Firestorms (meta call).
The point is, LED Dredge does solve this issue, even being a little less consistent, and also, is better against any combo.

[badjuju]

What is your guys' usual board plan against RUG Tempo or any deck packing Snapcaster / Surgical? For reference, I'm currently playing Adria's list with a slightly modified sideboard (with Coffin Purges and an extra Dread Return in the board).

My gut reaction is to bring out all Breakthroughs and go with the 'shave' technique to bring in 6 cards. Something like this:

-4 Breakthrough
-1 Golgari Thug
-1 Dread Return

+3 Ancient Grudge
+2 Gravecrawler / Ashen Ghoul / Nether Shadow
+1 Undiscovered Paradise

My reasoning behind this is that you usually don't want to go for an all-in card like Dread Return, which isn't really effective unless you have bridges, and if you have bridges and they aren't removed, you're in a good spot anyways. Breakthrough is also another "all-in" card that can get you in trouble if they bring in Crypt along with Surgical Extraction. I don't want to cut a Careful Study, Cabal Therapy, or Ichorid, so I opt to take out a Golgari Thug. Yes it hurts my dredging, so maybe I should be taking a Study out instead. I'm of the mindset that you SHOULDN'T take out LEDs, because the card allows you to put pressure on your opponent. A lot of times it comes down to overwhelming your opponent before they can muster up an answer.

I'm still not sure what I like better between Ashen Ghoul, Nether Shadow, and Gravecrawler. I think it might be a preference call in the end, as each has a significant advantage and a significant drawback.

Also, against Crypt / Cage / et all, do you usually bring in extra Claims to supplement the Ancient Grudge count? Or do you think bringing in 3 Grudges is sufficient?

Thanks!!

[Michael Keller]

Got 1st at the Altar of Alters Legacy tournament in Northern Virginia. Report is up here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23655-Report-1st-Place-Curio-Cavern-Legacy-Altar-of-Alters-Event!&p=637507#post637507)!

[badjuju]

Got 1st at the Altar of Alters Legacy tournament in Northern Virginia. Report is up here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23655-Report-1st-Place-Curio-Cavern-Legacy-Altar-of-Alters-Event!&p=637507#post637507)!

Grats dude!

How do you usually board vs RUG and Stoneblade?

[Michael Keller]

Against RUG and (stock) StoneBlade I generally board identically:

-2 Breakthrough
-1 Ichorid

+1 Cabal Therapy
+2 Ancient Grudge

Now, I am not going to purport this is always correct, because it isn't sometimes. I usually leave just one Breakthrough in for game two. Remember, Dredge is very subjective, and what works for one player might not for another.

For a *potential* game three, the Breakthroughs generally come back in and I just go with the main deck. I sometimes don't even concern myself with boarding aggressively, as there are several factors involved in my decision making like:

How well does my opponent know this match-up? What hate do I care about when my deck is already explosive as is? Do I even care? Is my opponent competent enough to mulligan correctly? Are they running Leyline? Do I just feel like rolling them quick and not even care about their hand?

The list goes on and on. I just think it depends on so many variables. Sometimes I will just shuffle fifteen cards into my deck and take all fifteen of them out after the fact - in the very good match-ups. Most people don't know how to play against Dredge, and sometimes the best strategy is to board in as little as possible - if anything.

Therapy is key for information, too. When you rip their hand apart, it doesn't matter anyway.

[Izor]

I personally wouldn't cut Ichorids when my opponent could have Surgicals in his deck (which both Stoneblade and RUG often have), but as you said it's also matter of preference.

Congratz on the finish, though. And a very nice report!

[Michael Keller]

I personally wouldn't cut Ichorids when my opponent could have Surgicals in his deck (which both Stoneblade and RUG often have), but as you said it's also matter of preference.

Congratz on the finish, though. And a very nice report!

Thanks!

That's the reason I decided to cut an Ichorid in that scenario. Ichorid by itself as a two-of is more than sufficient when an opponent has shifted cards to their sideboard while watering themselves down looking for some form of hate. A Surgical hitting Ichorid is only going to max out at two, and sometimes an opponent will gun for it when they see it. This can mislead a prepared opponent into thinking you're purposefully altering your primary angle of attack with the deck by trying to grind out the win with Ichorids.

Hitting two Ichorids with Surgical Extraction isn't really optimal, but two Ichorids can fuel both Dread Return and tokens off Bridge. Either way, if an opponent Surgical Extraction's Bridge - which they should - you still have two Ichorids/Dread Return to fall back on. Three is probably fine, but in most instances people diversify their threats post-board when they care about Surgical Extraction. I really don't care about it and just run at the opponent head-on, which I why I beat it.

Another thing to note: RUG really doesn't run Surgical over Crypt right now, as S.E. is seeing primarily more play in StoneBlade, BUG and U/r Delver variants. Most people here run Crypts and Relic in their sideboard, sans Extraction, which is why I tend to prepare accordingly. But in the vast majority of games I've played against RUG, Extraction has been virtually non-existent or a non-factor. I suppose this is just a compressed impression on my take of the current meta, but in my particular meta such is not the case.

[blindspotxxx]

With regards to stoneblade the correct play is to DRAW, DREDGE and DISCARD Right? My problem is if they got surgical extraction in hand they just shoot your golgaris and you're basically dead. Especially if they turn 2 stoneforge into Batterskull then Jitte.

If you don't DDD, you run the risk of walking into counters and your dredgers will be stuck in hand. It's also very hard to mull because you can't DDD if you mull. I'm kinda having a hard time deciding on how to really play against stoneblade or esper.

What do you guys generally do against this deck? I've beaten some with DDD but if they get some of the nuts it's no longer a battle. What about boarding? Are ancient grudges the best thing we can bring?

Quad Ichorids or keep the combo against Stoneblade in Game 2? To the veteran dredgers I need your mighty wisdom!

Played at a major tournament last sunday. Went 4-2-1, 1 Win shy of the Top 8 and Round 1 being paired against a teammate who lucky top decked me with a Surgical on Game 3.

[Sedris]

With regards to stoneblade the correct play is to DRAW, DREDGE and DISCARD Right? My problem is if they got surgical extraction in hand they just shoot your golgaris and you're basically dead. Especially if they turn 2 stoneforge into Batterskull then Jitte.

If you don't DDD, you run the risk of walking into counters and your dredgers will be stuck in hand. It's also very hard to mull because you can't DDD if you mull. I'm kinda having a hard time deciding on how to really play against stoneblade or esper.

What do you guys generally do against this deck? I've beaten some with DDD but if they get some of the nuts it's no longer a battle. What about boarding? Are ancient grudges the best thing we can bring?

Quad Ichorids or keep the combo against Stoneblade in Game 2? To the veteran dredgers I need your mighty wisdom!

Played at a major tournament last sunday. Went 4-2-1, 1 Win shy of the Top 8 and Round 1 being paired against a teammate who lucky top decked me with a Surgical on Game 3.

I think DDD is the right way most time, but often, you can keep hands which have enough stuff to get through counters (e.g.: 2 Lands, 1 Dredger, 1 Therapy, 2 Study Effects, 1 random), but most times even here I would DDD only for getting the first Dredger into the grave.

Usually, I run a quodlazer or quodlazer -2+2 Citadel List, but sometimes I test the combo list with DR, and when I board g2, I feel like:

The greatest/only problem against UWx Blade is (Snapcaster+)extraction >>> Extraction only wents good, if your opponent was able to cast 2 of them, and then only if they hit Ichorid AND Narcomoeba. So the only thing we can do against this draw is, that we Cabal Therapy Extractions away, before relevant cards are in the Grave, or to hate it with 1 off Memory's Journey (what shouldn't be the plan).

This says, that we nearly can't do anything against nutsdraw or multiple extractions, so my plan is to NOT to board out the Dread Returns and the Targets, because it could win you the game, if Ichorid and Moeba are extracted. I had this scenario multiple times, and in many of these games I just had 1 or 2 zombie token(s), and was able to cast a thug, a pimp or a stinkweed from hand to DR into a big Troll (or another winmore fattie) protected by therapy.


In conclusion, I mean that the Plan for combolists should be to board all LED's out in the UWx-Blade + Extraction/Extirpate-Matchup, and some Breakthroughs if necessary. Then you board in all grudges and journeys/purges/puryfies you have + claims/firestorms if you have enough space and would not destroy the decks consistancy too much and obviously only if you run them.

(Maybe there is another Plan like don't board speed out at all and ignore hate. If you do that, you have to fight against counters and need good hands because you won't DDD more than one or 2 turns, if you use this strategy.)

[joemauer]

If you know stoneblade is playing surgical extraction and not Leylines or artifact hate then this matchup is usually in our favor.

Esperblade is easier because they run less countermagic in exchange for more irreverent threats against us. It is easy to strip their hate with therapy. Or go all in with LED and two different dredgers. Esper version tends to use Leylines more often however which need to be dealt with differently.

U/W stoneblade is tougher though. They are more likely to use extraction making them more predictable. I wouldn't DDD unless you have two different dredgers because extraction will blow you out. Cabal Therapy is crucial in this matchup.

In either match up I would not board out LED. Breakthrough is most likely to go first especially against U\W versions.

[Sedris]

If you know stoneblade is playing surgical extraction and not Leylines or artifact hate then this matchup is usually in our favor.

Esperblade is easier because they run less countermagic in exchange for more irreverent threats against us. It is easy to strip their hate with therapy. Or go all in with LED and two different dredgers. Esper version tends to use Leylines more often however which need to be dealt with differently.

U/W stoneblade is tougher though. They are more likely to use extraction making them more predictable. I wouldn't DDD unless you have two different dredgers because extraction will blow you out. Cabal Therapy is crucial in this matchup.

In either match up I would not board out LED. Breakthrough is most likely to go first especially against U\W versions.

Agree, but I would board out LED first, because it does not draw cards (i mean e.g.: After struggling with a leyline and some hate, you wan't more a breakthrough to kill your opponent fast, than a LED for discard your hand, because you always have enough outlets, even if you board all 4 LEDs out, you have at least 16-20 cards for discarding, so I see Breakthrough > LED).

DDDing against UWx-extraction-blade does obviously only make sense, if you don't have another choice (because you have only 1 outlet for example, caused from a mulligan), or if you have 2 Dredgers against extraction. But i think it isn't false if you have only 1 dredger or 2 trolls/thugs/imps and then go DDD because good opponents wouldn't be so stupid and extract a ddded Dredger blind. If they realize, that this isn't the safest way and the best target, then extraction is only relevant if you are already/constantly dredging.

[badjuju]

I agree with not boarding out the LEDs. The card is great for forcing your opponent to make a play mistake or to pressure him into wasting countermagic. Remember that LED is also a massive enabler where Breakthrough requires you to already have a Dredger in the yard. I get that you can use Breakthrough as a weak enabler as well, but then you lose the overall potential for punching through a countermagic wall with Faithless Looting. Maybe it's preference, but I've been keeping the LEDs in for almost every matchup.

[joemauer]

Agree, but I would board out LED first, because it does not draw cards (i mean e.g.: After struggling with a leyline and some hate, you wan't more a breakthrough to kill your opponent fastly, than a LED for discard your hand, because you always have enough outlets, even if you board all 4 LEDs out, you have at least 16-20 cards for discarding, so I see Breakthrough > LED).


I agree that after fighting Leyline or whatever hate you want to try and make the board as much in your favor as possible. This is why I leave in LED and board out most or all my breakthroughs. Breakthrough is bad in multiples in long drawn out matches.

Picture these two hand:
Hand One: LED,LED, careful study, and some number of dredgers.
Hand Two: Breakthrough, Breakthrough, careful study, and some number of dredgers.

For these two hands let's assume we have two or three lands in play. After battleling hate this seems like a fair number of lands right? You just finished dealing with your opponent's hate and want to go off.

Let's assume best case scenario for both hands. Hand one can potentially dredge 36 cards in one turn, assuming all grave trolls and faithless looting showing up when needed. Hand two can potentially dredge 24 cards, assuming you see all four trolls.

Now picture same hands but this time you have three lands in play with one being Cephalid Coliseum. Hand one can dredge up to 54 cards(assuming we are the topdeck king)! Hand two can still only dredge up to 24 cards in one turn.

Lion's Eye Diamond dredge build's strength over LEDless dredge is that it can win in one turn, not just turn one which happens on occasion.

Since the printing of Faithless Looting, I am more confidant in boarding out breakthrough. After boarding out all your breakthroughs you will still have 11 or 12 draw effects counting Cephalid Coliseum and you can still flashback Faithless Looting.

LEDs are also better at drawing out countermagic than breakthrough. First or second turn you can play out LED in hopes it will get countered to push a Pimp or careful study through. If LED doesn't get countered it still helps in the late game. If breakthrough doesn't get countered you might be setting yourself up to a blow out by a crypt next turn. I believe despite it's function LED as a card is actually better at playing cautiously than Breakthrough.

[Sedris]

I agree that after fighting Leyline or whatever hate you LEDs are also better at drawing out countermagic than breakthrough. First or second turn you can play out LED in hopes it will get countered to push a Pimp or careful study through. If LED doesn't get countered it still helps in the late game. If breakthrough doesn't get countered you might be setting yourself up to a blow out by a crypt next turn. I believe despite it's function LED as a card is actually better at playing cautiously than Breakthrough.

Sure, LED is a very good card and enables some tricks with it. Sure, You MAY Dredge more times with a single LED + Study + dredger than Breakthrough + Study + dredger, but you always have to hit a looting, and with 2 times dredging i don't see much consistancy in this move postboard. Study resp crack LED looks more like Loosing against topdeck crypt or massgy-removal than Study, Breakthrough, because hitting some dredgers (9-10 at this moment) in 2 dredges is a greater chance than hitting a Looting (4off) in 2 dredges.

Note that LED AND Breakthrough lose against crypt, you just don't cast Breakthrough against Crypt/Trap/Relic and you don't crack LED against Crypt/Trap/Relic, the result is the same. The only contrast is, that Breakthrough can be played for x>0, so that you may use it as a drawspell without a totally all-in move.

Then, if we recapitulate your 2 scenarios, in the LED, LED, Study, some Dredgers and 2-3 Lands version, you might have a problem against a counter for study, so that you only can slowdredge, or topdeck lucky.

In the Breakthrough, Breakthrough, Study, some Dredgers and 2-3 Lands version, your Study might be countered, and then you may cast Breakthrough for x=1 (so that it costs 1U, not that Spell Snare is irrelevant in postboard games) this turn or the following, if you only have 2 lands and then, if it resolves, you can keep the other Breakthrough for "going off" again.

So Hand 1 loses against 1 counter, and Hand 2 only against 2. Maybe that is irrelevant, because of that Slowdredging started with LED might kill the control opponent too, but in conclusion LED needs a dredger (in hand or in grave) and another card to be good, where Breakthrough needs only a dredger in grave. If you would have only 1 Land in these scenarios, LED would be better for sure.

In the end:

LED and Breakthrough are both cards you might board out in the Blade matchup but i think it depends on the opponents SB and your personal preferences, which you are going to board out at first. I just like the usage of Breakthrough as a NOT-all-in card but yes, it's slower in being an outlet than LED.

[joemauer]

Then, if we recapitulate your 2 scenarios, in the LED, LED, Study, some Dredgers and 2-3 Lands version, you might have a problem against a counter for study, so that you only can slowdredge, or topdeck lucky.

In the Breakthrough, Breakthrough, Study, some Dredgers and 2-3 Lands version, your Study might be countered, and then you may cast Breakthrough for x=1 (so that it costs 1U, not that Spell Snare is irrelevant in postboard games) this turn or the following, if you only have 2 lands and then, if it resolves, you can keep the other Breakthrough for "going off" again.



This situation would never happen. The counterspell would be used to stop your chain/claim aimed at their hate.

[Vandalize]

Sure, LED is a very good card and enables some tricks with it. Sure, You MAY Dredge more times with a single LED + Study + dredger than Breakthrough + Study + dredger, but you always have to hit a looting, and with 2 times dredging i don't see much consistancy in this move postboard. Study resp crack LED looks more like Loosing against topdeck crypt or massgy-removal than Study, Breakthrough, because hitting some dredgers (9-10 at this moment) in 2 dredges is a greater chance than hitting a Looting (4off) in 2 dredges.

Note that LED AND Breakthrough lose against crypt, you just don't cast Breakthrough against Crypt/Trap/Relic and you don't crack LED against Crypt/Trap/Relic, the result is the same. The only contrast is, that Breakthrough can be played for x>0, so that you may use it as a drawspell without a totally all-in move.

Then, if we recapitulate your 2 scenarios, in the LED, LED, Study, some Dredgers and 2-3 Lands version, you might have a problem against a counter for study, so that you only can slowdredge, or topdeck lucky.

In the Breakthrough, Breakthrough, Study, some Dredgers and 2-3 Lands version, your Study might be countered, and then you may cast Breakthrough for x=1 (so that it costs 1U, not that Spell Snare is irrelevant in postboard games) this turn or the following, if you only have 2 lands and then, if it resolves, you can keep the other Breakthrough for "going off" again.

So Hand 1 loses against 1 counter, and Hand 2 only against 2. Maybe that is irrelevant, because of that Slowdredging started with LED might kill the control opponent too, but in conclusion LED needs a dredger (in hand or in grave) and another card to be good, where Breakthrough needs only a dredger in grave. If you would have only 1 Land in these scenarios, LED would be better for sure.

In the end:

LED and Breakthrough are both cards you might board out in the Blade matchup but i think it depends on the opponents SB and your personal preferences, which you are going to board out at first. I just like the usage of Breakthrough as a NOT-all-in card but yes, it's slower in being an outlet than LED.

The point is: UW Stoneblade doesn't use Crypt/Relic/Trap. You'll face Surgical Extraction 95% of time, because of its beautiful synergy with Snapcaster Mage. Siding out LED is wrong in the majority of situations.

Unless you're talking about Esper Blade, that can bring some random Leyline of the Void form times to times. But they don't usually bring artifact-formed hate.

The boarding for Ancient Grudge is to deal with fast Batterskull and Jitte. You won't really hit a Relic of Progenitus with it.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Alright short report from me.

Finished 15th in a 89 man-event on sunday [5-2] with the following list:


Dredgers
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

Graveyard Goodies
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid

other stuff
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Putrid Imp
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
2 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

Lands
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

Sideboard
4 Nature's Claim
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Memory's Journey
1 Angel of Despair
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria


Round 1: Dredge

G1: We both know each other and we both know what we play. I won the dieroll and I started. I opened with Double LED, land -> CS -> sacced 1 LED in response for triple red and failed to find a Looting. He did an exorbitant start with LED, land, BT, Lootings ending his turn with 9 Zombies and a 18/18 Troll [3 Ichorids yarded]. 1 turn later I was dead, okay G2.

G2: We talked like 5 minutes how stupid the mirror and the boardings are, then we get started. I mulled to 5 due to bad opening hands, He also mulled to 5. My opening hand was Looting, Study, GGT, Land, Coliseum which should be good enough. He opened with Leyline. >.< I never found hate for the Leyline and died 2 turns after. He told me that his opening hand was: Leyline, Claim, Stinkweed, Lootings & Rainbow and he found a Coliseum in his Lootings. Massively exaggerated, what should I say? Well, the dredge-god wasn't on my side in that game.


Round 2: Pox

G1: I just wanted to check the pairings when a mate called me and said. Sit down here, and I thought "Oh no, another mate". I knew he was on Pox and I knew he played 3 Extirpates main, so I did not like that MU. He won the dieroll kept his 7 and started to laugh out loud. I started with a rainbowland and said "Bad pokerface" to him playing a Cabal Therapy naming Extirpate. I hit 2. 1 Turn later I flayerkilled him.

G2: He mulled to 5 and I knew he also has Leyline in the board. He had no Leyline, but extirpated my Moebas on turn 2. I created 2 Zombies the next turn with 1 Ichorid. 1 turn later 2 Zombies & 1 Ichorid sarificed themself to summon Iona. GG


Round 3: Sneak and Show

G1: I mulled to 5 due to superbad hands with lots of lands and no draw / dredgers. I still couldn't do anything and needed to hope to find a single discardspell. He kept his hand. Turn 4 Sneak Attack into Emrakul & Progenitus -> GG

G2: Just a turn 2 Progenitus which I couldn't race.


Round 4: Hivemind

G1: I Flayerkilled him on turn 2 and know what he was playing due to seeing his hand thanks to Cabal Therapy.

G2: He did a 2nd turn Show and Tell into Emrakul. I had my Angel of Despair in hand. Awesome! Finished the game 2 turns later with Angel & Ichorids.


Round 5: Hivemind

Basically the same as Round 4. The only exceptions were that G1 lasts a bit longer and Show and Tell was cast in turn 3 at game 2.


Round 6: Pox

G1: He started with Swamp -> Go. I opened with Rainbowland, LED, Looting, response LEDcrack, Looting again and a full graveyard. He did EoT -> Entomb. I thought: "Fuck, reanimator, Elesh -> GG". Luckily he yarded a Nether Spirit and I was sure he is on Pox. I flayerkilled him turn 2.

G2: I kept a strange opening hand with 2 Rainbowlands, 3 Coliseums a Thug and a Study. He opened with Swamp -> Pithing Needle. I thought: "Oh man... don't call Coliseum". He was thinking a few seconds and named Dread Return. I played Gemstone Mine -> Study, yarding a Flayer and a Thug because I didn't find any other Dredgers. He drew for his turn and played Extirpate, targeting my Flayer [SCG-Niveau anyone?]. 2 turns later I showed him that Dread Return isn't an activated abillity and brought a Iona into play. :tongue:


Round 7: Hivemind [seriously wtf]

G1: I therapied him turn 2 and knew he was on Hivemind, 1 turn later I killed him with Ichorids and Flayer.

G2: He mulliganed to 6 and opened with Leyline, Land, Top. I played a Study which found me 2 other Studies/Lootings. He played another land doing nothing. I played my 2 Studies, still finding no out to that stupid Leyline. EoT he Lim-Dûl's Vaulted. In his turn he did Ancient Tomb -> Show and Tell into Emrakul. Guess what? I had the Angel again. 2 turns later he was dead.


Nothing to add here from the tourney. My thougts are the same like before. Grudge does nothing these days. So does Putrid Imp which always gets boarded out. [except for the mirror] My next list will probably cut some Imps for Rainbowlands and more Breakthrough again.

Also, here is a picture of my MVP this weekend: Angel of Eldrazi-slaying.

http://img7.imagebanana.com/img/vital0vw/AngelofDespair.JPG

See you guys, and keep on dredging.

[blindspotxxx]

Thank You gentlemen for your replies. Really depends on the draw huh? Would you guys keep a 7 card hand for DDD with no Draw Effects? Assuming against stoneblade. I guess it's safe to conclude that as long as they play Snapcaster Surgical is the form of hate and DDD route ain't good for it. Maybe just Mull normally and don't fear counters is the best move? Ok now i know what the ancient grudges are for, their not really there for the hate but rather for the Equipment.

[badjuju]

/snip

Nice report :) A very odd set of matchups though haha. No wonder Angel of Despair was your MVP this whole weekend. :eek:

[joemauer]

Good job NecroYawgmoth. Really three Hive Minds!

In regards to your first game, I have been blind naming LED with any Cabal Therapies on the play for my first turn. My thought process is that only dredge, belcher , TES, or Reanimator can blow me out after ten or fifteen cards have entered my graveyard. Don't know if the opportunity was there for you or not, but it is a good strategy to adopt. Especially in the current meta.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Alright short report from me.

Finished 15th in a 89 man-event on sunday [5-2] with the following list:

Dredgers
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

Graveyard Goodies
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid

other stuff
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Putrid Imp
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
2 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

Lands
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

Sideboard
4 Nature's Claim
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Memory's Journey
1 Angel of Despair
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria



This list looks absolutely savage.

4 Claim out of the board is about the best thing I've seen. I might change:

-1 Flayer
-1 Dread Return
+1 Flame Kin Zealot
+1 Breakthrough


I've played just about every combo deck except for dredge. I'll put this beast together and start testing. Congrats on your finish.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Good job NecroYawgmoth. Really three Hive Minds!

In regards to your first game, I have been blind naming LED with any Cabal Therapies on the play for my first turn. My thought process is that only dredge, belcher , TES, or Reanimator can blow me out after ten or fifteen cards have entered my graveyard. Don't know if the opportunity was there for you or not, but it is a good strategy to adopt. Especially in the current meta.

I know about this strategy and I follow the same logic. Unfortunately there was no Moeba for me to flashback a Therapy.



This list looks absolutely savage.

4 Claim out of the board is about the best thing I've seen. I might change:

-1 Flayer
-1 Dread Return
+1 Flame Kin Zealot
+1 Breakthrough


I've played just about every combo deck except for dredge. I'll put this beast together and start testing. Congrats on your finish.

I just dislike FKZ. It doesn't do anything except winning now. In ~90% of the time tha 1 turn doesn't even matter because you Therapied their hand away and created a shitload of Zombies anyway. I think Flayer is better because it also helps against akward cards instead of just winning now. [He is like a combination of Angel & FKZ]. If I'd play only 2 DRs main, my target of choice would be Angel of Despair.

[Michael Keller]

I just dislike FKZ. It doesn't do anything except winning now.

That's essentially what most of the available Dread Return targets are meant for - combo finishes. Whether it's Flayer or FKZ, it really doesn't matter as long as they ultimately win you the game.

I agree on the principle that Cabal Therapies can be enough when creating tokens and stripping an opponent's hand apart, which is why I opt to run Sun Titan. It doesn't necessarily create a "win more" scenario for the deck, but either ensures you will win the game the following turn by blasting through your deck, or it will throw you back into a winning position when the game is effectively out of reach. FKZ and Flayer really don't do this optimally, but Titan can.

Also, congrats on the finish. I am, however, not a fan of running only twelve lands - four of which that do not produce Red mana for Looting or Black mana for Putrid Imp. That can create some incredibly awkward scenarios with off-colored land-spell hands to start the game.

Additionally, two Breakthrough main seems a bit light. Game one you're going straight combo and you ideally want to be able to blow the game wide open as soon as possible. By trimming back on the number of Breakthroughs, you're essentially putting more weight on your basic filter spells to do most of the work for you, thus making you mulligan even more aggressively to find a land to fit the color cost of the spell intended to be cast (because you're only running twelve lands, this makes it even harder).

[Anusien]

Which is better, Cephalid Coliseum or Breakthrough/Careful Study?

Does the answer change if you have LED in your deck or not?

[NecroYawgmoth]

Also, congrats on the finish. I am, however, not a fan of running only twelve lands - four of which that do not produce Red mana for Looting or Black mana for Putrid Imp. That can create some incredibly awkward scenarios with off-colored land-spell hands to start the game.

Additionally, two Breakthrough main seems a bit light. Game one you're going straight combo and you ideally want to be able to blow the game wide open as soon as possible. By trimming back on the number of Breakthroughs, you're essentially putting more weight on your basic filter spells to do most of the work for you, thus making you mulligan even more aggressively to find a land to fit the color cost of the spell intended to be cast (because you're only running twelve lands, this makes it even harder).

This is the same I felt. That's the reason why I want more Rainbowlands & Breakthroughs in the main. I'll try cutting 2,3,4 PImps the next days and let you know how it worked out.

[blindspotxxx]

Does 12 lands really work? I personally run 13 and if I could fit in a 14th land I would. I'm using Ando's exact list. Quad Lazer aims for consistency but it only runs 12 lands which makes it ironically less consistent. Recently Adria Romero is using 13 lands now, In my opinion 13 lands is the way to go.

I see a lot of lists cutting out Firestorm completely, I'm starting to realize this and I hardly side in Firestorm. Aggro seems to be a dead deck now. Any thoughts on 2 Ancient Grudge for 2 Firestorms?

I'm also running 3 Chain of Vapors which used to be Nature's Claim. The reason is reanimator is big in the Philippines and Chain of Vapor can bounce Scavenging Ooze while Nature's Claim can only hit artifacts and enchantments.



Which is better, Cephalid Coliseum or Breakthrough/Careful Study?

Does the answer change if you have LED in your deck or not?

Cephalid is a must in the deck :) Really depends on your composition and intention. You need to run all 3 actually, are you asking because you want to cut a one of the sets of these cards? If you're a Flayer or an all in combo type 4 Breakthroughs are really needed to increase the chances of your broken draw.

[jares]

Does 12 lands really work? I personally run 13 and if I could fit in a 14th land I would. I'm using Ando's exact list. Quad Lazer aims for consistency but it only runs 12 lands which makes it ironically less consistent. Recently Adria Romero is using 13 lands now, In my opinion 13 lands is the way to go.

I see a lot of lists cutting out Firestorm completely, I'm starting to realize this and I hardly side in Firestorm. Aggro seems to be a dead deck now. Any thoughts on 2 Ancient Grudge for 2 Firestorms?

I'm also running 3 Chain of Vapors which used to be Nature's Claim. The reason is reanimator is big in the Philippines and Chain of Vapor can bounce Scavenging Ooze while Nature's Claim can only hit artifacts and enchantments.




Cephalid is a must in the deck :) Really depends on your composition and intention. You need to run all 3 actually, are you asking because you want to cut a one of the sets of these cards? If you're a Flayer or an all in combo type 4 Breakthroughs are really needed to increase the chances of your broken draw.
To add to that, it's worth noting that Cephalid Coliseum (land/Draw/discard) and Careful Study (draw/discard) are both able to facilitate at least two important functions for Dredge. Breakthrough can also sometimes serve as a discard outlet (while being our main draw spell), but it's significantly much less reliable in that function (which is probably also why it's the card that gets boarded-out most of the time). I really like these cards that are able to serve multiple purposes (Faithless Looting and Putrid Imp can be added to that list), as these components significantly increase the reliability and consistency of the deck.

Cheers,
jares

[Gui]

To add to that, it's worth noting that Cephalid Coliseum (land/Draw/discard) and Careful Study (draw/discard) are both able to facilitate at least two important functions for Dredge.

Cephalid Coliseum is not a reliable discard outlet, although being a land and a draw spell makes it worth running already.

[Anusien]

Let's get specific. Here is Ando's Top8 decklist from GP Indy:

1 Flayer of the Hatebound
2 Ichorid
3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp

3 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
4 Breakthrough
4 Faithless Looting
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
Is Careful Study #4 or Cephalid Coliseum #4 better? Why?

[Klazam]

I can answer that. The Coliseum is better due to the land amount. The extra Careful Study is nice, but not so nice if you cant cast it.

Cephalid Coliseum is both a land and a spell. Its good in more situations than the Careful Study.


BTW, how's my list performing for you so far, Blindspotxxx?

[joemauer]

Let's get specific. Here is Ando's Top8 decklist from GP Indy:

Is Careful Study #4 or Cephalid Coliseum #4 better? Why?

Cephalid Coliseum is better just because this deck could use as many lands as possible. While being a land, it still let's us go off(usually uncounterable) with any other discard outlet. So it is a land that doesn't lower our spell count.

Edit: klazam beat me to it.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Am I the only one who thinks that
a 1 Mana discard OR draw [depending on situation]which can be cast with every land is better than
a land that can't cast all the spells in the deck, and is a 2nd turn drawspell... :eyebrow:

IMO Study > Coliseum

Play 8.

[Michael Keller]

You really want to max out on Careful Study and Cephalid Coliseum. There really is nothing more to it in regards to that. Those cards have incredible synergy with the rest of the deck, which is actually quite scary.

[jares]

Cephalid Coliseum is not a reliable discard outlet, although being a land and a draw spell makes it worth running already.
Most certainly agreed! I got carried away there. :tongue:

Cheers,
jares

[jares]

I can answer that. The Coliseum is better due to the land amount. The extra Careful Study is nice, but not so nice if you cant cast it.

Cephalid Coliseum is both a land and a spell. Its good in more situations than the Careful Study.


BTW, how's my list performing for you so far, Blindspotxxx?

Cephalid Coliseum is better just because this deck could use as many lands as possible. While being a land, it still let's us go off(usually uncounterable) with any other discard outlet. So it is a land that doesn't lower our spell count.

Edit: klazam beat me to it.
I also agree, for the reasons that I've stated above. Also, I would prefer running the 4th Careful Study over the 4th Breakthrough for the same reasons.

I hope that helps.

Cheers,
jares

[Digital Devil]

So I just bought 4x Firestorm and wanted to sneak 'em into my non-LED build. Main problem is I cannot decide whether I want to play 4x Ichorid or maindeck Iona + 1x Ichorid in my sideboard. List is as follows:

LANDS

4x Cephalid Coliseum
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
2x Tarnished Citadel

CREATURES

4x Tireless Tribe
4x Putrid Imp
4x Narcomoeba
4x Ichorid
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Golgari Thug

SPELLS

4x Bridge from Below
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Breakthrough
4x Careful Study
2x Dread Return
1x Darkblast

SIDEBOARD

4x Chain of Vapor
4x Ancient Grudge
4x Firestorm
1x Ray of Revelation
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Angel of Despair

[jares]

Am I the only one who thinks that
a 1 Mana discard OR draw [depending on situation]which can be cast with every land is better than
a land that can't cast all the spells in the deck, and is a 2nd turn drawspell... :eyebrow:

IMO Study > Coliseum

Play 8.
I would tend to generally agree with your points, but given the land-light configuration in question, it's difficult for me to be comfortable with running as few as 12 lands (or even 13 for that matter! :tongue:).

Hollywood probably said it best - we would surely benefit the most from running the full set of both of these cards.

Cheers,
jares

[NecroYawgmoth]

@Digital Devil: I think you should exchange Tireless Tribe for Faithless Looting. Other than that the list looks good.

Study was always the swiss army knife of dredge, there is no reason not to play 8.

I dislike the Sideboard, but sideboards are always meta-dependant, so it's ok I guess.



I would tend to generally agree with your points, but given the land-light configuration in question, it's difficult for me to be comfortable with running as few as 12 lands (or even 13 for that matter! :tongue:).

Hollywood probably said it best - we would surely benefit the most from running the full set of both of these cards.

Cheers,
jares

Cut Imps, play Lands. =D

[blindspotxxx]

I can answer that. The Coliseum is better due to the land amount. The extra Careful Study is nice, but not so nice if you cant cast it.

Cephalid Coliseum is both a land and a spell. Its good in more situations than the Careful Study.


BTW, how's my list performing for you so far, Blindspotxxx?

It has been performing great but lately I can't seem to get the God Draw turn 1 Goldfish for the past 2 Events I've been to, it was wild on it's debut having 4 turn 1 kills i think lol

1st debut in a small tournament it made me get 1st place. 4 Rounds went 3-0-1. Beat Ant, Mono Red Sneak Attack with Through the Breach and Sneak/Show. Tied with Maverick

2nd event got a 2-2 Record. Won against Mono Red Sneak Attack, White Weenie with Equipments and Artifacts, Lost against Thopter Sword Counter Top and Lost against Rug Delver.

3rd event went 3-1-0 got to 3rd place Beat White Weenie with Vials and Equipment, Beat Pox, Beat Mono Red Sneak Attack and lost to UW Stoneblade national player.

3rd event went 2-2 due to being late for the tournament. Lost to UW stoneblade the national player here in our country, Beat Maverick, Got a Bye and Lost to Maverick for not showing up lol

4th event went 3-0-1 at the qualifier for a bye for the major tournament here in the Philippines held last April 22, 2012. Didn't get the bye due to matchups but was the same score with 1st place. Beat RUG Delver (Dice roll due to draw and he gave me the match), UW Stoneblade, BW Stoneblade and draw with Maverick.

5th event went 2-2-1 Beat Sneak Show, Lost the Mirror at the rubber match (LEDless), Draw with ANT, Lost to Combo Elves Team mate, and beat another deck I can't remember.

6th event Major Legacy last April 22, 2012, 7 rounds. Went 4-2-1. 1 win shy of top 8. Lost to burn (team mate with lucky top deck on game 3), Draw with Slivers, Lost to Esper Stoneblade, Beat Nic Fit, Beat Mud Variant, Beat Reanimator, Beat Dead Guy Ale.

Overall I'm satisfied but I'm retweaking the sideboard. I think I'll make a mini-report soon.

[Final Fortune]

Why are you guys comparing Careful Study to Cephalid Coliseum when you could compare Careful Study to Breakthrough, it really doesn't make sense to cut either Careful Study or Cephalid Coliseum because Careful Study is an enabler for Cephalid Coliseum in a number of situations where Breakthrough is not.

[Izor]

Why even talk about any of the draw effects. Play all 16 and cut some of the unnecessary DRs and DR targets, if you really need room. Period.

All explosiveness of this deck is based on cards that fulfil more than just one of the four roles (mana production, dredger, discard outlet, draw effect). This is why for LED lists, I'll start with 4 Study, 4 LED, 4 Looting, 4 BT, 4 Coliseum, 4 CT and go from there. In LED Dredge, I'd certainly start cutting the Putrid Imps before cutting any of the cards I just mentioned.

[GoldenCid]

Got 1st at the Altar of Alters Legacy tournament in Northern Virginia. Report is up here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23655-Report-1st-Place-Curio-Cavern-Legacy-Altar-of-Alters-Event!&p=637507#post637507)!

Very Congrats!! Good job!
I have some questions for you because looking at your list there are some things that remains in darkness to me:

-Why do you invest so many "study effects" if you have not FKZ as autowin? I mean, you can go all in with leds, coliseum and breakthough plus study and loothing why wait?
Personally i like running eternal witness to warrant going off in the turn i crack led.

-Coffin purge is you double surgical plan?

-In what cases do you side the 4th breakthrough in?

-supposing that ichorid beatdown is your main way to win, why just 3?

If you think that answering this questions is redundant for the topic please pm me.

[blindspotxxx]

Very Congrats!! Good job!
I have some questions for you because looking at your list there are some things that remains in darkness to me:

-Why do you invest so many "study effects" if you have not FKZ as autowin? I mean, you can go all in with leds, coliseum and breakthough plus study and loothing why wait?
Personally i like running eternal witness to warrant going off in the turn i crack led.

-Coffin purge is you double surgical plan?

-In what cases do you side the 4th breakthrough in?

-supposing that ichorid beatdown is your main way to win, why just 3?

If you think that answering this questions is redundant for the topic please pm me.

Run Sun Titan over Eternal Witness :) I think we can safely say that Sun Titan > Eternal Witness anyway. Flamekin and Flayer needs a very very healthy Graveyard and Dredge. There are times when you don't hit narcos or bridges while you get the combo of 3 Dread Returns and the DR target. To each his own I guess, I personally run Flayer. And Flayer > Flamekin Honestly. You can still win even if your opponent has a lot of blockers already. The 4th Ichorid was cut in Quad for the 13th land or the single DR.


Why even talk about any of the draw effects. Play all 16 and cut some of the unnecessary DRs and DR targets, if you really need room. Period.

All explosiveness of this deck is based on cards that fulfil more than just one of the four roles (mana production, dredger, discard outlet, draw effect). This is why for LED lists, I'll start with 4 Study, 4 LED, 4 Looting, 4 BT, 4 Coliseum, 4 CT and go from there. In LED Dredge, I'd certainly start cutting the Putrid Imps before cutting any of the cards I just mentioned.


Why are you guys comparing Careful Study to Cephalid Coliseum when you could compare Careful Study to Breakthrough, it really doesn't make sense to cut either Careful Study or Cephalid Coliseum because Careful Study is an enabler for Cephalid Coliseum in a number of situations where Breakthrough is not.

Yep I agree with all the above, It's a choice between Breakthrough and Careful Study. And Cephalid Coliseums should not even be a choice. The only thing that can replace Cephalid is a rainbow land. If only I can fit 16 lands and all of the goodies I would do it. Funny thing was last February 19 a Dredge Player made it on one of our majors. His list is LEDless and he uses 16 Lands.

Here is the List:

DREGE (Daniel Saracin)

Creatures
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp


4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 faithless looting

4 Bridge from Below

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 tarnished citadel

Sideboard:
2 chain of vapor
3 firestorm
2 dread return
1 flame kin zealot
1 iona shield of emeria
4 faerie macabre
2 nature’s claim

The List I think goes for the most overall consistency with no LED. What do you guys think? When I simulate this in Cockatrice it seems to keep a lot of it's hands.

[jares]

If only I can fit 16 lands and all of the goodies I would do it. Funny thing was last February 19 a Dredge Player made it on one of our majors. His list is LEDless and he uses 16 Lands.

Here is the List:

DREGE (Daniel Saracin)

Creatures
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp


4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 faithless looting

4 Bridge from Below

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 tarnished citadel

Sideboard:
2 chain of vapor
3 firestorm
2 dread return
1 flame kin zealot
1 iona shield of emeria
4 faerie macabre
2 nature’s claim

The List I think goes for the most overall consistency with no LED. What do you guys think? When I simulate this in Cockatrice it seems to keep a lot of it's hands.
Hehe, that's my list. :tongue:

For reference, the tourney report for that is in the old thread (here) (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13767-Deck-Dredge&p=620282&viewfull=1#post620282). Looking back at this list, I would now surely reconsider my sideboard (as always). That instance was also the first time that Faithless Looting was legal, and I have been unable to follow-up on that ever since. :frown:

I have been considering playing LED Dredge in one of the upcoming major tourneys here, but it intrigues me to test whether or not I would still be able to keep-up with the competition using LEDless, which is still actually my preferred configuration.

I wasn't able to join-in on the fun last 22-Apr-2012 due to unforeseen circumstances (and I was looking forward to this so much :cry:), and I was wondering about the results of that tourney that I missed:

How was your match versus Reanimator?
How was your match versus Stoneblade?
What did the Top 8 look like?
How many players were there?
Did you notice the number of players using Dredge (LEDless in particular)?
Any additional notes on the meta? I'm particularly interested in whether or not there were a lot of Maverick, Stoneblade, and Storm-based decks.

It's good to see that you placed well, though it's unfortunate that you had to lose to a teammate - on the bright side, at least one of you reached the Top 8. I hope that luck will also be on your side next time. :smile:

Cheers,
jares

[badjuju]

Very Congrats!! Good job!
I have some questions for you because looking at your list there are some things that remains in darkness to me:

-Why do you invest so many "study effects" if you have not FKZ as autowin? I mean, you can go all in with leds, coliseum and breakthough plus study and loothing why wait?
Personally i like running eternal witness to warrant going off in the turn i crack led.

-Coffin purge is you double surgical plan?

-In what cases do you side the 4th breakthrough in?

-supposing that ichorid beatdown is your main way to win, why just 3?

If you think that answering this questions is redundant for the topic please pm me.

To add to what blindspotxxx wrote, here's a direct quote from Hollywood regarding his choice to run a sole Sun Titan:


I agree on the principle that Cabal Therapies can be enough when creating tokens and stripping an opponent's hand apart, which is why I opt to run Sun Titan. It doesn't necessarily create a "win more" scenario for the deck, but either ensures you will win the game the following turn by blasting through your deck, or it will throw you back into a winning position when the game is effectively out of reach. FKZ and Flayer really don't do this optimally, but Titan can.

[Anusien]

Would anyone keep LED, Faithless Looting, one dredge card, 4 blanks? Does it matter what the dredge card is?

[Klazam]

Would anyone keep LED, Faithless Looting, one dredge card, 4 blanks? Does it matter what the dredge card is?

Play: no. Draw: Game one, probably.

That hand really needs a land to be good.

I would not keep if i had 2 narcos in my hand, and/or if the dredger was just a thug or anything smaller. Troll and Imp would be ideal.

[Koby]

Funny video of Joseph Moreno (Que) vs John Harduvel (Harduvel) in the last round of MTGDeal's Cash tourney on 4/22/12.

Linky (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23486-MTG-Deals-Legacy-Tournament-Sunday-4.22.12&p=638536)

[jares]

I agree on the principle that Cabal Therapies can be enough when creating tokens and stripping an opponent's hand apart, which is why I opt to run Sun Titan. It doesn't necessarily create a "win more" scenario for the deck, but either ensures you will win the game the following turn by blasting through your deck, or it will throw you back into a winning position when the game is effectively out of reach. FKZ and Flayer really don't do this optimally, but Titan can.

Regarding the ability to "blast through the deck", I was wondering if some of you have already had their conclusions regarding how reliable Griselbrand would be in that function (maybe in comparison to Sun Titan and others that are also able to facilitate the same line of play).

Kind Regards,
jares

[jares]

Would anyone keep LED, Faithless Looting, one dredge card, 4 blanks? Does it matter what the dredge card is?
If what you mean by "blanks" is "any card that you don't want to see in your opening hand" (e.g. Ichorid, Dread Return, Narcomoeba etc.), then I generally wouldn't keep that hand. In the worst case, you could possibly hit a brick with the second draw and not be able to replace it with a dredger. :eek: Thinking about it further, though, I could see some scenarios where keeping that hand would still be wise, though these scenarios seem too difficult to be discussed briefly.

I hope that helps.

Kind Regards,
jares

[blindspotxxx]

Hehe, that's my list. :tongue:

For reference, the tourney report for that is in the old thread (here) (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13767-Deck-Dredge&p=620282&viewfull=1#post620282). Looking back at this list, I would now surely reconsider my sideboard (as always). That instance was also the first time that Faithless Looting was legal, and I have been unable to follow-up on that ever since. :frown:

I have been considering playing LED Dredge in one of the upcoming major tourneys here, but it intrigues me to test whether or not I would still be able to keep-up with the competition using LEDless, which is still actually my preferred configuration.

I wasn't able to join-in on the fun last 22-Apr-2012 due to unforeseen circumstances (and I was looking forward to this so much :cry:), and I was wondering about the results of that tourney that I missed:

How was your match versus Reanimator?
How was your match versus Stoneblade?
What did the Top 8 look like?
How many players were there?
Did you notice the number of players using Dredge (LEDless in particular)?
Any additional notes on the meta? I'm particularly interested in whether or not there were a lot of Maverick, Stoneblade, and Storm-based decks.

It's good to see that you placed well, though it's unfortunate that you had to lose to a teammate - on the bright side, at least one of you reached the Top 8. I hope that luck will also be on your side next time. :smile:

Cheers,
jares

Hahaha Kabayan! lol Didn't expect you're Daniel Saracin. None of us reached Top 8, I had the best record, my High Tide team mate got stressed out and misplayed on his mirror match that loss made him drop out of the tourney because he's out of top 8 because of this as well. How unfortunate you didn't join, there were 7 Dredge players and 5 Reanimators?

May matchup versus reanimator went like this:

Game 1:

He kept a hand that lacked the combo and kept on digging for the combo. I wasn't able to Flayer combo him when I went off turn 2 but I had 2 Zombie tokens 1 8/8 Gravetroll, 2 Bridges and 1-2 Ichorids in the Gy. He entombs Sheoldred? that black creature and exhumes it. Fortunate for me I guess, if he went for Elesh Norn that's GG right there.

Game 2:

I open with Leyline of the Void. He doesn't draw another blue source for his Boomerang until I killed him. Was just lucky or I should have lost 2 games.

vs. Stoneblade

Game 1: Don't remember but I won turn 2 with Flayer and him having Force of will with no Blue cards.

Game 2: I went DDD and he surgical extracted my Golgari Gravetroll. He slapped down a turn 2 Stoneforge, Turn 3 Batterskull, Turn 4 Jitte on the Batterskulled Germ. GG Couldn't recover from that anymore because couldn't find my Dredger or I was Dredging slow.

Game 3: I kept a rather not so explosive hand and I get beat by the same Stoneforge, Batterskull and Jitte. He kills his Stoneforge which kills my 3 Bridges and I was slow dredging. He countered my only draw spell also.

Top 8 Looked like this:

Sneak Show
Maverick
RUG Delver
Stoneblade
Death and Taxes
TES
Nic Fit
Affinity

[jares]

Hahaha Kabayan! lol Didn't expect you're Daniel Saracin. None of us reached Top 8, I had the best record, my High Tide team mate got stressed out and misplayed on his mirror match that loss made him drop out of the tourney because he's out of top 8 because of this as well. How unfortunate you didn't join, there were 7 Dredge players and 5 Reanimators?
Yikes... it might have been better if your teammate had just given you the win. :frown:


May matchup versus reanimator went like this:

Game 1:

He kept a hand that lacked the combo and kept on digging for the combo. I wasn't able to Flayer combo him when I went off turn 2 but I had 2 Zombie tokens 1 8/8 Gravetroll, 2 Bridges and 1-2 Ichorids in the Gy. He entombs Sheoldred? that black creature and exhumes it. Fortunate for me I guess, if he went for Elesh Norn that's GG right there.

Game 2:

I open with Leyline of the Void. He doesn't draw another blue source for his Boomerang until I killed him. Was just lucky or I should have lost 2 games.
Seriously, he was playing Boomerang? It seems to me that you really deserved to win that match-up, given that the Reanimator player's card choices seem sub-par based on what I can gather.


vs. Stoneblade

Game 1: Don't remember but I won turn 2 with Flayer and him having Force of will with no Blue cards.

Game 2: I went DDD and he surgical extracted my Golgari Gravetroll. He slapped down a turn 2 Stoneforge, Turn 3 Batterskull, Turn 4 Jitte on the Batterskulled Germ. GG Couldn't recover from that anymore because couldn't find my Dredger or I was Dredging slow.

Game 3: I kept a rather not so explosive hand and I get beat by the same Stoneforge, Batterskull and Jitte. He kills his Stoneforge which kills my 3 Bridges and I was slow dredging. He countered my only draw spell also.
The Stoneblade match-up is one that I worry about a bit, simply because, for some reason, I've had little experience against it in the competitive environment.


Top 8 Looked like this:

Sneak Show
Maverick
RUG Delver
Stoneblade
Death and Taxes
TES
Nic Fit
Affinity
That sucks - I find it sad whenever the graveyard-centric decks are not represented in the Top 8. :frown:

Oh well, better luck for us next time. Thanks for the notes kabayan. :smile:

Cheers,
jares

[Que]

Funny video of Joseph Moreno (Que) vs John Harduvel (Harduvel) in the last round of MTGDeal's Cash tourney on 4/22/12.

Linky (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23486-MTG-Deals-Legacy-Tournament-Sunday-4.22.12&p=638536)

I'll take this as a chance to polish up my play and stop missing Thug triggers. ;pp

[K1w1]

I saw the video and i was crying after seeing that you forgot the triggers :D You can NOT forget the triggers. ;(

[Final Fortune]

Regarding the ability to "blast through the deck", I was wondering if some of you have already had their conclusions regarding how reliable Griselbrand would be in that function (maybe in comparison to Sun Titan and others that are also able to facilitate the same line of play).

Kind Regards,
jares

I prefer Griselbrand to Sun Titan because,

1) Griselbrand is black instead of white
2) Griselbrand is a superior threat to Sun Titan considering he's bigger, evasive and has lifelink to stabilize.
3) Griselbrand's draw effect isn't reliant on Lion's Eye Diamond being in the main deck
4) Griselbrand's draw effect is more powerful
5) Griselbrand's draw effect can be triggered twice on the same turn.

Seems kind of straight forward in theory and playtesting IMO, being life dependent is kind of annoying but so is being graveyard dependent on LED/Looting, Coliseum etc.

[Godmode]

Griselbrand vs. Flayer

Wich one do you guys think it's better playing MD?

Flayer seems to be insta win (against any deck/or threat) when he hits the board, although he requires another DR to resolve and a total of 3 DR maindeck. This beeing said, when in play you can grind out games with him just based on the damage by the creatures hitting the board.


Grisel is technically one turn slower, but it only requires 2 DR maindeck and is also game over when he enters in play, although he can't get around prison cards like moat, etc. It's a more prolific creature, since he has lifelink, flying, puts a 3 turn clock on your oponent and has the amazing draw ability wich can turn the tables and get you out of deep holes or lost games.


Seems to me that it all comes down to 3 DR vs 2 DR (if you don't have a prison cards loaded meta-game). They might be both win-more cards, but that will depend alot on the meta aswell.

[Anusien]

Griselbrand is like Sun Titan and Sphinx of Lost Truths and Eternal Witness in that it helps you draw through your deck. It does not actually let you win the turn you Dread Return it unless you also have FKZ or Flayer or whatever magical happiness machine you have. They don't fulfill the same roles.

[Final Fortune]

I'd prefer 2xDread Return and 1xGriselbrand because it's 1) Space efficient 2) Black creature count 3) Not as reliant on your board state and graveyard state in order to be able to Dread Return twice for the combo finish immediately 4) reduces the impact of Surgical Extraction because it's 1 less Dread Return removed and Griselbrand doesn't care if Golgari Grave Troll was removed previously to a Surgical Extraction to incidentally have weakened the combo kill.

That 1 MD card makes a huge difference IMO, because it's the difference between the 4th Cabal Therapy, 3rd Ichorid or an extra land.

Edit: Mind Twisting the opponent with a 7/7 Flying, Lifelinker who'll draw again on the same turn or on the following turn is more often than not just as good as winning via Flayer or FKZ, the emphasis doesn't have to be on you winning immediately if you can prevent your opponent from winning on his following turn and put yourself in an overwhelming board position. Griselbrand is pretty ridiculous at doing that and people need to get it thru' their thick skulls that Cabal Therapy(s) > wasting space on Flame Kin Zealot

[Michael Keller]

I prefer Griselbrand to Sun Titan because,

1) Griselbrand is black instead of white
2) Griselbrand is a superior threat to Sun Titan considering he's bigger, evasive and has lifelink to stabilize.
3) Griselbrand's draw effect isn't reliant on Lion's Eye Diamond being in the main deck
4) Griselbrand's draw effect is more powerful
5) Griselbrand's draw effect can be triggered twice on the same turn.

Seems kind of straight forward in theory and playtesting IMO, being life dependent is kind of annoying but so is being graveyard dependent on LED/Looting, Coliseum etc.

+1.

The thing people need to ask themselves realistically is how much damage or loss of life on average they receive involuntarily by turn three. If they're losing more than thirteen, they're probably doing something wrong or have already lost. Griselbrand is just disgusting in LED Dredge. However, he is not necessarily the end all, be all of the archetype, and Sun Titan is still a perfectly viable option if people choose to play him.

Even River Kelpie can be broken in some instances. It really all depends on peoples' list.

[Anusien]

Are there any keepable dredge hands that aren't of one of these forms? Talking only about the hands you want to keep, not "Guess I keep Land + Imp + Troll + 2x blank because I don't want to go to 4."

Dredger + Faithless Looting + LED + Dredger
Dredger + LED/Putrid Imp + Faithless Looting/Careful Study/Breakthrough/Cephalid Coliseum + Rainbow land
Dredger + Faithless Looting + Rainbow land + Faithless Looting/Careful Study/Breakthrough/Cephalid Coliseum
Dredger + Careful Study + Rainbow land + Faithless Looting/Careful Study/Breakthrough/Cephalid Coliseum
Dredger + Careful Study + Cephalid Coliseum + Cephalid Coliseum/Careful Study/Breakthrough

[Izor]

Yes, actually I regularly keep hands without Dredgers. As long as you have at least two Study effects, enough Land and the potential to go nuts once you find a Dredger, you're perfectly fine.

If your hand contains at least two Lands, at least two Study effects plus an LED or Breakthrough, I always keep. Except if I have like double Narco in it as well.

Keeping hands w/o Dredgers is much easier than people think in a deck with so many Study effects. I fare very well with this strategy.

[Anusien]

Sure you can. But you don't feel amazing about it, and it's inherently a risky keep. I am looking for good, solid keeps.

[DragoFireheart]

Sure you can. But you don't feel amazing about it, and it's inherently a risky keep. I am looking for good, solid keeps.

This advice applies to the women at the bar scene by some strange coincidence.

I think Griselbrand is going to find a home in Dredge. The ability to draw cards and be able to race decks ala life link seems too good to pass up as a back-up-plan. If someone were going to run the Griselbargin, what cards would we take out?