[Deck] Dredge

[badjuju]

The Spanish have been doing pretty well with a consistent looking dredge list in these mid-sized tournaments (see Adria Romero from March).

http://manainfinito.com/articulos/legacy/listas-top8-lcl-2012-abril

The list is basically 1 DR while maxing out on consistency and upping to 13 lands. It's kind of like the evolution of quadlazer, so to speak. They still keep packing Gravecrawlers, along with 2 rainbow lands in the board. I suspect that they like Gravecrawler because the guy is consistently hard-castable and can be called back at will. For all other recurring threats (besides Bloodghast), you need to wait another turn, but not for Gravecrawler, which can be the difference between getting Crypted and at least having a few zombies to show for it. I personally am on the fence about it, but I guess it's been working for them. They also all still run the DR targets in the board even with only 1 DR. As I've stated before, it becomes a fallback plan and doesn't affect your consistency as much. Digging it.

[jares]

I prefer Griselbrand to Sun Titan because,

1) Griselbrand is black instead of white
2) Griselbrand is a superior threat to Sun Titan considering he's bigger, evasive and has lifelink to stabilize.
3) Griselbrand's draw effect isn't reliant on Lion's Eye Diamond being in the main deck
4) Griselbrand's draw effect is more powerful
5) Griselbrand's draw effect can be triggered twice on the same turn.

Seems kind of straight forward in theory and playtesting IMO, being life dependent is kind of annoying but so is being graveyard dependent on LED/Looting, Coliseum etc.
This looks like a pretty good summary to me, as I have noted the same for myself. I have forgone running Dread Return in my configuration, and I expect to go back to running DR because I find it difficult to say no to what Griselbrand has to offer (though I haven't really had the chance to test the card thoroughly).

Kind Regards,
jares

[jares]

Yes, actually I regularly keep hands without Dredgers. As long as you have at least two Study effects, enough Land and the potential to go nuts once you find a Dredger, you're perfectly fine.

If your hand contains at least two Lands, at least two Study effects plus an LED or Breakthrough, I always keep. Except if I have like double Narco in it as well.

Keeping hands w/o Dredgers is much easier than people think in a deck with so many Study effects. I fare very well with this strategy.
Same here - in fact, I have found that keeping such hands has been surprisingly reliable, though that might have just been luck all along. Caution and careful consideration should always be applied for any hand without a dredger.

Kind Regards,
jares

[jares]

The Spanish have been doing pretty well with a consistent looking dredge list in these mid-sized tournaments (see Adria Romero from March).

http://manainfinito.com/articulos/legacy/listas-top8-lcl-2012-abril

The list is basically 1 DR while maxing out on consistency and upping to 13 lands. It's kind of like the evolution of quadlazer, so to speak. They still keep packing Gravecrawlers, along with 2 rainbow lands in the board. I suspect that they like Gravecrawler because the guy is consistently hard-castable and can be called back at will. For all other recurring threats (besides Bloodghast), you need to wait another turn, but not for Gravecrawler, which can be the difference between getting Crypted and at least having a few zombies to show for it. I personally am on the fence about it, but I guess it's been working for them. They also all still run the DR targets in the board even with only 1 DR. As I've stated before, it becomes a fallback plan and doesn't affect your consistency as much. Digging it.
I have also been considering adapting the 1-DR configuration, but so far I haven't been comfortable with it. I haven't tested it rigorously, so it's still up in the air for now. Anyone else that might have done their homework on this configuration?

Cheers,
jares

[badjuju]

I have also been considering adapting the 1-DR configuration, but so far I haven't been comfortable with it. I haven't tested it rigorously, so it's still up in the air for now. Anyone else that might have done their homework on this configuration?

Cheers,
jares

I haven't tested it yet, but it makes a ton of sense to me in theory. A single DR adds dynamism and threat diversity to the deck at the cost of a single slot. It doesn't beg to shave from consistency like a lot of the DR-heavy lists are struggling with. The sideboard also suggests that they favor grindier games over going for the throat. Again, another list that's up for interpretation, but a good one for those who are still looking for consistency while maintaining the ability to play DR.

The singleton Darkblast in that list was a Breakthrough for Adria. It can also be another land or another Dread Return imo. This is the flex spot based on your preference. It's a bit odd to me still that you'd have DR targets in the board with only 1 DR main, but I've explained that already, even if I myself am weary about it lol. Also, Gravecrawler deserves another look again for all naysayers. Possibly.

[Izor]

1 DR is very good. You just have to get rid of the assumption that the point in casting DR is bringing a huge monster into play that will win the game on its own. Running one DR is only about ine thing: creating tokens if you fail to find as many Therapies as you have Narcomoebas. And one DR does that job very well.

DR targets are unnecessary for our game plan. Creating tokens is not. Therefore the 1 DR.


Back to the keepable hand discussion.

It should be clear that Land-Dredger-Discard outlet-draw effect is what we want and no matter what, if you have those 4 components you always keep.

The real question is when you can keep if you're lacking one of those pieces.

You can keep LED+Dredger+Looting if you have to.
You can also keep multiple Careful Study effects without Dredgers if the rest of your hand is good.
You can keep Land+dredger+Putrid Imp if you've mulled already.

Among all of those things, the Dredger-less version is the best hand imho.

You can't keep a no-lander, you can't keep without discard outlets unless you know you're otD against CounterTop.

[Parcher]

This advice applies to the women at the bar scene by some strange coincidence.

I think Griselbrand is going to find a home in Dredge. The ability to draw cards and be able to race decks ala life link seems too good to pass up as a back-up-plan. If someone were going to run the Griselbargin, what cards would we take out?

Nothing main deck. He seems needed there at the moment about as much as any other target. That is to say, not at all.

I'm running two in the SB, to go with my two DR main. He just replaces any other targets. Against RUG, basically any resolved DR wins unless you are in a straight race, and they have both Burn, and Delver. Griselbrand just does that a bit better since you win any race when you have 6+ life and he hits play. For the most part, the same holds true against Stoneblade. Though you do have to play it differently. I bring in Grudge against the U/W versions, so he's not spectacular there. Against Esper though, I often bring in Firestorms. Both as an additional discard outlet to replace LED, since many of these run Leyline, and as an answer to Lingering Souls. He pretty much ends the game there too. I'll probably board in one against these decks.

Against Combo decks, he replaces Iona+Sphinx/Sun Titan. Since they don't affect your life total until they win, the ability to draw 7-10, while dredging the rest of your library should win almost any scenario. Especially if you have multiple lands or LED in play, since you can actually cast what you draw. The only deck this may not happen against is Burn. Iona actually seals the game there, where with GB you have to pass the turn and hope that you either had several Therapies, or they just don't have it(draw it) before you get to swing. Not high enough odds there to worry about in my opinion.

He also replaces what I call the "Oh Shit Button", in cards like Terastodon, and AoD. Since you can use him to draw your SB cards. This is assuming of course that we are using those cards for things like Ensnaring Bridge et al. Since if they have actual Hate, you won't get him into play anyway.

Against creature-based/Aggro/Tribal strategies, he replaces Elesh Norn if you have Firestorms. Being able to use his ability, and sweep basically anything away, all at instant speed (if you have access to R) is to me one of the main reasons to run Griselbrand. Hell, if you have enough life, you can live the dream and use his ability twice, then Firestorm for 7+ in response to your first Firestorm to do huge amounts of direct damage. In testing I've even done things like make my turn two land drop, go off, DR Griselbrand, draw 7, play LED, draw 7 while saccing LED for R, then Firestorm for the win. The only concern in these cases is if they play Cage, since you can't play around it with PImp and Firestorm like Crypt/Relic, or just overpower it like Surgical. Since most of these decks don't/can't use Cage well, it's not a huge concern. You'll just need to play carefully Game Two, and get all of the information that you can. Or hope they just don't drop Cage turn one.

[badjuju]

Nothing main deck. He seems needed there at the moment about as much as any other target. That is to say, not at all.

I'm running two in the SB, to go with my two DR main. He just replaces any other targets. Against RUG, basically any resolved DR wins unless you are in a straight race, and they have both Burn, and Delver. Griselbrand just does that a bit better since you win any race when you have 6+ life and he hits play. For the most part, the same holds true against Stoneblade. Though you do have to play it differently. I bring in Grudge against the U/W versions, so he's not spectacular there. Against Esper though, I often bring in Firestorms. Both as an additional discard outlet to replace LED, since many of these run Leyline, and as an answer to Lingering Souls. He pretty much ends the game there too. I'll probably board in one against these decks.

Against Combo decks, he replaces Iona+Sphinx/Sun Titan. Since they don't affect your life total until they win, the ability to draw 7-10, while dredging the rest of your library should win almost any scenario. Especially if you have multiple lands or LED in play, since you can actually cast what you draw. The only deck this may not happen against is Burn. Iona actually seals the game there, where with GB you have to pass the turn and hope that you either had several Therapies, or they just don't have it(draw it) before you get to swing. Not high enough odds there to worry about in my opinion.

He also replaces what I call the "Oh Shit Button", in cards like Terastodon, and AoD. Since you can use him to draw your SB cards. This is assuming of course that we are using those cards for things like Ensnaring Bridge et al. Since if they have actual Hate, you won't get him into play anyway.

Against creature-based/Aggro/Tribal strategies, he replaces Elesh Norn if you have Firestorms. Being able to use his ability, and sweep basically anything away, all at instant speed (if you have access to R) is to me one of the main reasons to run Griselbrand. Hell, if you have enough life, you can live the dream and use his ability twice, then Firestorm for 7+ in response to your first Firestorm to do huge amounts of direct damage. In testing I've even done things like make my turn two land drop, go off, DR Griselbrand, draw 7, play LED, draw 7 while saccing LED for R, then Firestorm for the win. The only concern in these cases is if they play Cage, since you can't play around it with PImp and Firestorm like Crypt/Relic, or just overpower it like Surgical. Since most of these decks don't/can't use Cage well, it's not a huge concern. You'll just need to play carefully Game Two, and get all of the information that you can. Or hope they just don't drop Cage turn one.

Awesome.

Have you changed anything since your finish at NELC? Still running Ashen Ghouls?

[Parcher]

I dunno for sure. I'm definitely cutting the Purge/Journeys for Firestorms. This version is consistant enough against Reanimator with it's current decline. And whoever goes busted first wins the mirror, all other things being equal. With GB, Firestorm just has a higher value. The Land, Grudge, Claim, and the 4th Bthrough are all staying, with the 3rd DR target becoming Firestorm as well.

I might switch back to Shadow over Ghoul. Against Extraction, with Bridge being a primary target, and Ichorid being secondary, Dread Return is your next line of attack. To take full advantage of this in conjunction with Griselbrand, I not only don't want to miss a turn of being able to DR him due to mana constrictions, I also want to have access to mana if I do have a land to best take advantage of his drawing power. Neither of these scenarios lend well toward playing Ghoul. And his extra power only makes a difference in maybe a third of the games he actually comes in , and hits play. I'm not certain either way yet, but these are my thoughts currently.

[Final Fortune]

+1,

Parcher has the right idea, I don't MD Dread Return and Dread Return targets but I do SB 2xDread Return and 1xGriselbrand because it provides a second angle of attack vs Surgical Extraction and it's important to have a game plan for when either Bridge from Below and to a lesser extent Golgari Grave Troll are RFGed.

Regarding additional SB threats vs Surgical Extractions, I think you should play 1xAhen Ghoul and XxNether Shadows where you can SB out X of your Ichorids (in the case of Quadlazer, -2 Ichorid) and diversify your threat base to minimize the impact of Surgical Extraction.

If you're looking for SB space, I think the space you should look for is the 2xTarnished Citadel and Firestorms to replace, because the 2xTarnished Citadels are only relevant when you're trying to cast Nature's Claim, Ancient Grudge or Ray of Revelation in some match ups (RUG) and even in those match ups you should consider keeping your Lion's Eye Diamonds MD because they're funtionally mana sources for Faithless Looting and Cephalid Coliseum, a draw spell, an accelerant and a come back mechanism. Firestorm is only good, and when I say good I mean it actually addresses a problem and plays a necessary role you need, vs Maverick if they are MDing more than 1xScavenging Ooze and, which makes Scavenging Ooze a 2G lock piece they can't immediately activate and that you can race regardless.

I really dislike seeing the number of Ancient Grudges at +2x in SBs, I think a lot of people need to stop playing the second Ancient Grudge in favor of playing Tireless Tribes because it's better to make the deck more resistant vs Tormod's Crypt than it is to dry and address a hate card they may or may not draw and just hold onto a card that can't prevent Tormod's Crypt from activating later when they do draw it instead of just playing Tireless Tribe and accelerating your game plan.

Nature's Claim is also a card I'm hating more and more, mainly because the only hate I SB Nature's Claim in against is Leyline of the Void and Grafdigger's Cage, both of which can be addressed by Chain of Vapor and you have 4 more mana sources to cast it than Nature's Claim and don't need to SB in any more lands to support it at that rate. Chain of Vapor actually does useful shit in otherwise close match ups as well, like bounce Reanimator targets.

As far as the whole "let's all play Dread Return MD again" band wagon, I really think this really fucking sucks and it's not a question of preference any more. I've been playing a lot of games on Cockatrice with the quadlazer list and the Flayer list, and I think the Flayer list is litterally the "idiots guide to Dredge" because it over emphasizes Dredge as a combo deck. The deck is threat dense enough to let you get away with it to an extent, but it literally has no ability to judiciously "DDD" those games where you lose the coin flip and see "Island, go." You just straight up don't need to "kill" the turn you go off or circumvent the combat step vs any deck that matters game 1, so you're giving up your strategic and tactical plan of DDD in favor of some flashy shit that actually retards your play skill from eliminating decision trees when you start the game on the draw and you're cold vs STP way too often.

I'll leave the list I'm playing after those thoughts, I think it's probably where other people want to go once the whole "illusion of preference" goes out the window.

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Putrid Imp

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweep Imp
4 Golgari Thug

4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting

4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below

4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy

SB

1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Tireless Tribe
2 Dread Return
1 Griselbrand
2 Nether Shadow
1 Ashen Ghoul

I SB out Breakthrough more than any other card.

I may consider cutting both Ancient Grudge and Ray of Revelation for 2xTarnished Citadel to better support Tireless Tribes when they come in, I have that feeling that we shouldn't give a damn about any permanent that doesn't stop us from Dredge and that they're really a wet blanket. We race most of that crap anyway and you could probably consolidate space with a Terrastadon etc.

Edit: Actually screw Terrastadon, I think Parcher is right about Griselbrand just being able to draw ~14 cards and find Chain of Vapor + Land.

[badjuju]

My only gripe with quadlazer is that it runs 12 lands. I've actually just bumped my MD list up to 14 lands and I don't think I'm looking back.

[Final Fortune]

My only gripe with quadlazer is that it runs 12 lands. I've actually just bumped my MD list up to 14 lands and I don't think I'm looking back.

I think the Spanish list with 1 Dread Return and the 9th Gold Land instead of the 4th Ichorid and 4th Golgari Thug is a compromise, opening up two slots in the SB is really appealing.

Grave Crawler is a mixed bag, relying on a land and either a Putrid Imp or activated Bridge makes it really conditional and I'm not certain scoring a Savanah Lion every once and awhile is worth it. Maybe if you play 4 and you can get them to chain off each other by casting one and then using it as an anchor to bring the others back over time, but you've still got a 1 per turn bottle neck most likely.

[HokusSchmokus]

I am testing an updated list from one of our dredging group's members, sporting 14 lands(+2 tarnished) and 1 DR for -3 PImps.

[badjuju]

I think the Spanish list with 1 Dread Return and the 9th Gold Land instead of the 4th Ichorid and 4th Golgari Grave Troll is a compromise, opening up two slots in the SB is really appealing.

Grave Crawler is a mixed bag, relying on a land and either a Putrid Imp or activated Bridge makes it really conditional and I'm not certain scoring a Savanah Lion every once and awhile is worth it. Maybe if you play 4 and you can get them to chain off each other by casting one and then using it as an anchor to bring the others back over time, but you've still got a 1 per turn bottle neck most likely.

I think the German group on here has been testing Nether Shadow to great success. I've played a few boarded games vs RUG and they were surprisingly good. One glaring issue with Gravecrawler is that he can't block, and that's where Nether Shadow really takes the cake.

[HokusSchmokus]

In a RUG and BUG heavy meta Shadow in your board is perfectly fine. Should run at least 3 PImps and 1-2 DR though- the Shadows will not do the work, just enable.

[K1w1]

I'm the one, who tested the Shadows in the board and first of all i thought it was great. But all in all i cut them again.
The main reason why i did this is that our opponents are playing Leyline + artifact hate more often than surgical atm. Like my 5-1 in the local tourney. As i said, i played against Mav,Nicfit,Nicfit,Mav,Reanimator,EsperStoneblade. I boarded them against NicFit and Stoneblade, but they were good in the Stoneblade matchup.

I'm actually playing the Quadlazer -1Thug +1DR.

Btw, played in a local tourney 3-1 for the 2nd finish. There were only 10 players.
2:1 Past in Flames Storm
2:0 Reanimator ( perfect hand game 2, therapy/gemstone/coliseum/nature's claim/study/gravetroll/leyline )
1:2 MUD
2:0 Sneak Attack with Show and Tell ( He gave me the wins due to he had to go and we splitted the price )

K1w1

[blindspotxxx]

Yikes... it might have been better if your teammate had just given you the win. :frown:

Cheers,
jares

It was round 1 and I firmly believed that the burn deck had great matchups since Maverick and Rug are on the rise. To my surprise he fought 2 more dredge decks lol Philippine Meta is not changing most people still play their trusty old decks so I think Burn didn't make it.

How many nether shadows can we fit in the sb? I only have 2 slots at the moment and I think gravecrawler seems to be good.

[jares]

1 DR is very good. You just have to get rid of the assumption that the point in casting DR is bringing a huge monster into play that will win the game on its own. Running one DR is only about ine thing: creating tokens if you fail to find as many Therapies as you have Narcomoebas. And one DR does that job very well.

Agreed. I believe that the concern, though, is that these "Spanish Lists" (for lack of a better term) might not be running enough DRs in their 75-card lists to reliably support their game plan of getting meta-specific DR targets into play. In the past, I did successfully pilot a build that had one Dread Return in the main deck (with no DR targets; this is in reference to the point that DR's main purpose is not to get the DR targets into play), but I did have another DR in the SB for when I would board-in DR targets for specific match-ups (this is to ensure that I could minimize the probability of encountering the need to get a DR target in play while also not having a DR available).

At the end of the day, it seems to me that these considerations may just boil down to how a player would like to use that 1 slot to support one (or more) of the many factors that contribute to how Dredge's engine works (add a DR to increase the probability of getting a DR in the GY, add a DR target, add another Dredger, add a land, add a Firestorm/Tireless Tribe, etc.).

Cheers,
jares

[jares]

Regarding additional SB threats vs Surgical Extractions, I think you should play 1xAhen Ghoul and XxNether Shadows where you can SB out X of your Ichorids (in the case of Quadlazer, -2 Ichorid) and diversify your threat base to minimize the impact of Surgical Extraction.
I also currently like this suggestion over running a few Gravecrawlers. I'll need to continue testing Ashen Ghoul, though - in fact, it might be worth testing it alongside a Gravecrawler or two, or maybe even one of each (which would seem like the best way to minimize the effect of Surgical Extraction). Come to think about it, has anyone ever tested the following post-board configuration?

[1x] Ichorid (possibly more)
[1x] Ashen Ghoul
[1x] Nether Shadow
[1x] Gravecrawler


The deck is threat dense enough to let you get away with it to an extent
With this I most certainly agree. In fact, this is also one of the major considerations that I build my configuration around.

Kind Regards,
jares

[Final Fortune]

Gravecrawler isn't the same kind of threat as Nether Shadow and Ashen Ghoul, because Gravecrawler's consistency is baded on the number of Gravecrawlers in the deck, where each can be hard cast to recur others, and where Nether Shadow and Ashen Ghoul are fine as just 2xetc.

I don't think I'd bother to reduce my deck to 1xIchorid, there's a line between reducing the impact of Surgical Extraction and increasing the impact of Swords to Plowshares and the effectiveness of the aggro beat down plan.

[jares]

Gravecrawler isn't the same kind of threat as Nether Shadow and Ashen Ghoul, because Gravecrawler's consistency is baded on the number of Gravecrawlers in the deck, where each can be hard cast to recur others, and where Nether Shadow and Ashen Ghoul are fine as just 2xetc.
I agree. I'm thinking, though, that the main reason for why the "Spanish Lists" have been using Gravecrawlers is because we can easily hard-cast them whenever necessary - especially in the cases where we're forced to take the long route by trying to win via a clunky group of 1/1, 1/2, and 2/2 creatures. In those cases, Nether Shadow's :b::b: casting-cost may not look so bad too.

From what I can gather so far, it's difficult for me to justify running [3x] Gravecrawlers over [1x] Ashen Ghoul and [2x] Nether Shadow. Is there anything that we might have been missing here?

Kind Regards,
jares

[Final Fortune]

I agree. I'm thinking, though, that the main reason for why the "Spanish Lists" have been using Gravecrawlers is because we can easily hard-cast them whenever necessary - especially in the cases where we're forced to take the long route by trying to win via a clunky group of 1/1, 1/2, and 2/2 creatures. In those cases, Nether Shadow's :b::b: casting-cost may not look so bad too.

From what I can gather so far, it's difficult for me to justify running [3x] Gravecrawlers over [1x] Ashen Ghoul and [2x] Nether Shadow. Is there anything that we might have been missing here?

Kind Regards,
jares

Obviously you can't run that many additional creatures, nor would you want to. I think you just have to decide what mix of creatures you want in your SB if any, and it's probably going to be either an Ashen Ghoul and Nether Shadow(s) or Gravecrawlers at like 3x

[Parcher]

+1,

I really dislike seeing the number of Ancient Grudges at +2x in SBs, I think a lot of people need to stop playing the second Ancient Grudge in favor of playing Tireless Tribes because it's better to make the deck more resistant vs Tormod's Crypt than it is to dry and address a hate card they may or may not draw and just hold onto a card that can't prevent Tormod's Crypt from activating later when they do draw it instead of just playing Tireless Tribe and accelerating your game plan.

Nature's Claim is also a card I'm hating more and more, mainly because the only hate I SB Nature's Claim in against is Leyline of the Void and Grafdigger's Cage, both of which can be addressed by Chain of Vapor and you have 4 more mana sources to cast it than Nature's Claim and don't need to SB in any more lands to support it at that rate. Chain of Vapor actually does useful shit in otherwise close match ups as well, like bounce Reanimator targets.

I actually disagree on both of these points. First, regarding Grudge. You are correct that two Tribes would fight Crypt better than two Grudge. That's not why they are there. Most decks now are running some split like two Grudge, two Extraction. There's no point in running Grudge there, as they will be foreced to drop it, and use it almost immediately. Especially if they are a slower deck. And the only ones running 4X Crypt are some RUG versions. With those deck's speed, disruption, and reach, if they draw more than one, you're not likely to win anyway. Grudge is there for control, and for Artifact based decks. The latter should need no explanation. Against Control, they are running Stoneforge. And both Jitte and Batterskull are serious considerations. They also tend to run Relic and/or Nihil. Grudge is better against both of those than Crypt. The fact that some have Mishra's as well is just a bonus. Grudge also lets you hedge your bets against Blade Control by only boarding in two anti-Extraction men, and the two Grudge. Since the only way for them to beat you is remove your Bridges, and then race with either Jiite or Batterskull.

I'm also not in favor of Chain, though that may be more meta-dependant. My issue is, the decks running Cage, and to a lesser degree, Crypt/Relic, are decks that aren't highly favorable to begin with. That is; Burn, Zoo, Affinity, Goblins/Merfolk, and to a smaller extent, Sneak and Show. Now none of these decks are popular right now, but alll of them have game against Dredge even without sideboarding. And at any 8+ round tournament, the first four rounds give you a decent shot at seeing one. Against these decks, you board out some number of Breakthrough and LEDs. This is, of course, to cut the chances of overextending into a blowout, and because you know that they have virtually no way of disrupting what you do cast.

The problem with this, that there is no real way around, is that they all represent a legitimate clock. A lot of times, losing that explosiveness can lose you games. But the inherent inconsistancy, especially in the face of hate is usually not worth the risk. The problem with this when it comes to Chain vs. Claim though, is that with Chain, you need to "win" the turn you attempt to after bouncing the hate. However, post-board you lack to tools to guarantee this is accomplished. You EOT bounce their Cage, Dredge, and then cast Study. If you don't get enough on-board to win from that turn, you are likely in big trouble. Even with drawing 4 with Breakthrough can sometimes just shit on you; we've all been there. And it's the worst when you know that they are holding the hate in hand, and you don't hit that Narco/Therapy. Claim doesn't have that liability. And none of these decks have a draw/filter engine to get them multiple hate pieces.

I do agree that Chain is better against Reanimator, and if you see more of that locally than the aforementioned decks, then that could easily sway a decision in a different direction.

[Michael Keller]

I think right now it's actually fundamentally wrong to board out LED's in the aforementioned scenarios. Winning as fast and as early as possible should always be your priority, because this is a combo deck at heart. You can't afford to let your opponent mulligan into hate and give them more time to find answers. The only exception to this would be against a deck sporting Leyline in the board, which a base knowledge of the format helps when sideboarding. Otherwise, they stay in and punish opponents for bad keeps, spotty mulligans, and just blows the game out of reach.

Additionally, I think Firestorm is on a rapid decline in LED Dredge. The card can be a blowout, but against most decks you can out-aggro them anyways. Hate-bears are minimal in basically Ooze, which you can laugh at by blowing the game wide open against early enough. Ancient Grudge is an incredibly good utility spell and very important at that, and if anything I'd boost mine up to three. Cage is seeing minimal play, and to be honest I am more concerned with cards like Crypt, Relic, Jitte, and Batterskull on board against me. Grudge gives me a definitive answer and is incredibly good against those cards.

Chain is also good against Reanimator, but meh. I just prefer to win before my opponents do which is why I keep the Claims in the board for cards like Cage, Leyline, etc. Coffin Purge hasn't seen play from my board in a while, and I generally bring it in against Lands or decks sporting Intuition packages abusing Life from the Loam - tagging cards like Bog, Chasm, etc. (those cards do exist). I don't even bother with a transformational board at this point. I'm not fixing something that isn't broken, and honestly being up a game just gives me great leverage. Therapy is key, and that should be good enough against Extraction (it always has been for me). Diversifying is fine, but it's not 100% necessary.

[joemauer]

I have brought back 3x Ancient Grudges to my sideboard. It is a stronger card at the moment. Surgical Extraction is in decline while crypt is on the rise. This could be he fact that dredge is currently more scary than Reanimator. Also, nasty equipment is everywhere at the moment, and blowing something up from out of your graveyard is pure card/board advantage.

[jares]

What do you guys use as sideboard cards against Sneak Show other than possibly Angel of Despair? Using Cabal Therapy wisely is always there, but I can't think of anything else I have on my SB that will be useful against this match-up.

Cheers,
jares

[Michael Keller]

What do you guys use as sideboard cards against Sneak Show other than possibly Angel of Despair? Using Cabal Therapy wisely is always there, but I can't think of anything else I have on my SB that will be useful against this match-up.

Cheers,
jares

Just crush them before they can do anything relevant against you. You're incredibly fast, and assuming they actually do manage to cast a Show and Tell, you just drop something into play and kill them as soon as possible by dredging through your deck.

I just think the deck is so incredibly strong pre-board that playing artsy-fartsy sideboarding strategies and dicking around with the main-deck by subbing out useful cards that shouldn't be tampered with is a mistake more often than not. Sure, a Ray of Revelation will help when it's dredged and an opponent plays a Sneak Attack tapped out, but really - by the time that hits play you should have either won, ripped their hand apart, or created a virtually non-winnable scenario for them to battle out of.

[funyun45]

Regarding additional SB threats vs Surgical Extractions, I think you should play 1xAhen Ghoul and XxNether Shadows where you can SB out X of your Ichorids (in the case of Quadlazer, -2 Ichorid) and diversify your threat base to minimize the impact of Surgical Extraction.

Do people really go after Ichorid with Surgical Extraction? It seems like the kind of decks that want to use that card are either aggressive (ANT, RUG) or can easily recur it (ie run Snapcaster, like UW Stoneblade) and therefore should first and foremost be hitting Bridge with Extraction. If they hit Bridges first the game instantly becomes more grindy, but the aformentioned archetypes can deal with that. If they hit Ichorid, however, we can still build a small army off Narcos and sac triggers. That too will make the game more grindy, but far less so than without Bridges.

[jares]

Just crush them before they can do anything relevant against you. You're incredibly fast, and assuming they actually do manage to cast a Show and Tell, you just drop something into play and kill them as soon as possible by dredging through your deck.

I just think the deck is so incredibly strong pre-board that playing artsy-fartsy sideboarding strategies and dicking around with the main-deck by subbing out useful cards that shouldn't be tampered with is a mistake more often than not. Sure, a Ray of Revelation will help when it's dredged and an opponent plays a Sneak Attack tapped out, but really - by the time that hits play you should have either won, ripped their hand apart, or created a virtually non-winnable scenario for them to battle out of.
I guess that always works. :tongue:

It's always a point of caution for Dredge players to not go over-board (pun intended). I was just wondering if there might be something specific that would be worth mentioning for the Sneaky Show match-up, though it seems that you've already indirectly validated my observation that there really isn't much reason to board stuff in other than what has already been mentioned.

Cheers,
jares

[Tacosnape]

People will go for almost anything with Surgical Extraction, smart or not. The correct target is almost always Narcomoeba, however, given that decks with low Ichorid counts are reduced to much slower tactics without Narcomoeba's cheatyface abilities. Piloting UW Control, I literally win or lose based on how fast I can Surgical a Narcomoeba.

Sneak Show and other Show and Tell variants are best dealt with through Cabal Therapy.

As for Show and Tell, you can always run Griselbrand as a DR target once Avacyn comes out. Chances are, if your opponent Show and Tells an Emrakul and you drop a Griselbrand, you're going to win this race. Even without a haste-enabler to finish them before they get a swing, you can roll through most of your deck with Griselbrand's ability, make a bunch of tokens and/or Narcomoebas, sacrifice your Narcomoebas to Annihilator to make more tokens, chump Emrakul with Griselbrand, and swing for the win next turn.

EDIT: Obviously, this is terrible against Hive Mind, but in this matchup, just savage them with Cabal Therapy.

[Parcher]

Sneak and Show should not be a difficult matchup. The only draw that they have that is fast enough to race is a turn two(three on the play, maybe) Show and Tell dropping Progenitus/Griselbrand. And even that won't do it if they weren't able to use their minimal counter-suite to stop your opening. Or if you can use their SnT for something decent. Sneak Attack is a joke, and Emrakul is often easily blocked, with a lethal counter-attack in return.

The problem is, that most of the decent players know this. That is why they run a set of either Leylines, or Cages. You really need to bring in Claim/Chain against them, and force them to play protect the queen, while using Therapy in that case to clear the way. The good part about this is that they can't mulligan to hate. They need so much to complete their combo that even a seven-card hand with hate might not be keepable. Especially if you can hard-cast Therapy for whichever of their bombs they seem to be aiming for. They've found out that Extraction won't slow us down enough to win, considering the life loss, and the loss of a piece they need in their opener.

I don't even bring in DR targets against them. Only bringing in the 4 Claims for 3 Breathrough and an Ichorid. And unless you have it in your hand when they SnT, or it's a FKZ or Ancestor's Chosen, the vast majority of the time, you will win(or lose) regardless of target. I have had times when I did lose the race, only because I didn't have access to either of those targets. But I'm not adding them just for this matchup. There is a chance that Griselbrand could change this, but only because some might now replace Progenitus with GB. You'll have to legend rule him, swing, and hope either that they are low enough on life from his ability, or didn't get enough to kill you on their next turn. Therapy for Sneak Attack should take care of this.

If they have Progenitus, you just DR an Ichorid to get more tokens, or a Troll if you can force through lethal. Against Emrakul, assuming you will have at least 6 other permanents, you DR Stinkweed. This is assuming that you have access to, and need to use DR at all.

[joemauer]

People will go for almost anything with Surgical Extraction, smart or not. The correct target is almost always Narcomoeba, however, given that decks with low Ichorid counts are reduced to much slower tactics without Narcomoeba's cheatyface abilities. Piloting UW Control, I literally win or lose based on how fast I can Surgical a Narcomoeba.


This is pretty true.

People tend to use surgical extraction on your first dredgers, ichorid, or bridge from below. Typically which ever they see first. Sometimes Cabal Therapy or Narcomoeba is the better extraction target and my opponent doesn't realize this and I win. Not to say I haven't been blow out by having my only dredger extracted, but just saying people tend to be trigger happy with it.

[Gui]

I guess people tend to extract whatever they see first, but the smart-or-not part differs on whether the guy will try to extract your dredger or your business.

Also, extracting whatever they see first is not necessarily wrong. Some decks use extraction just to gain some time, and extracting at will like this will get them time, at least most of the time (time, time, time...). And this time can be used to get what really ends the game when using extraction: the second extraction.

[Norm]

How do you guys feel about playing through Trinisphere from the Sneak Attack player's sideboard? This ups the number of turn 1-3 power plays quite a bit and seems pretty difficult for dredge to fight through.

[Final Fortune]

Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void at 1 are irritating, but they aren't necessarily an automatic win because Dredge just moves straight into DDD and in the case of Chalice of the Void you can still resolve Lion's Eye Diamond to discard your hand and activate Cephalid Coliseum and use Cabal Therapy to kill off your creatures and trigger Bridge from Below. I doubt Trinisphere is a serious consideration because you can't resolve it turn 1 consistently, while Chalice of the Void gets royally butt fucked by Ancient Grudge.

@Parcher, I disagree with the need to win after resolving Chain of Vapor vs Grafdigger's Cage, you can still develop your graveyard state by discarding Dredgers and resolving your draw spells with Grafdigger's Cage on the board so it's not particularly difficult to bounce it and Cabal Theray it away.

Also boarding out Lion's Eye Diamond is a terrible idea, even against decks where Lion's Eye Diamond risks a blow out because it's a mana source for 8 of your business spells, a 0 mana Time Walk and a sand bagged draw spell all in one card. I honestly think Breakthrough is the worst card in the deck as far as business spells are concerned and I'm totally cool with people only MDing 3 of them considering how often I SB them out for situationally specific cards.

I don't dislike Ancient Grudge, but I'd just rather play a card that's always useful as opposed to a card that's conditionally useful i.e. Tireless Tribe, because it's still reasonably effective vs Tormod's Crypt regardless and it actually does something the times they either don't draw hate they're hate is diversifed between a Crypt, Relic, Nihil, Surgical Extraction, Black Trap etc. to circument Cabal Therapy. The only reason I play Chain of Vapor is because I don't like being completely dead vs Leyline of the Void or Grafdigger's Cage, and if you're not playing an answer to either of those then why not just play Manaless Dredge?

I think I'm just going to play Quad Lazer with -1 Breakthrough, -1 Golgari Thug for +2 Tarnished Citadel and clear up my SB space. Not being able to land Putrid Imp and hard casted Cabal Therapy consistently off 8 gold lands is really pissing me off and I think people are horribly over emphasizing the combo aspect of the deck over the more reliable DDD grind vs U.dec. The number of people who just walk into Daze and Wasteland on Cockatrice makes me want to vommit.

[jares]

I think people are horribly over emphasizing the combo aspect of the deck over the more reliable DDD grind vs U.dec.
I'm not sure about the "over-emphasizing" part, but I've noticed that I've also been leaning more and more towards the play-style of grinding games out (especially post-board) rather than on the combo plan. This inclination has caused me to value Cabal Therapy even more (especially the blind therapies), and have prompted me to be more critical of the sideboard cards that I need to include, as I've noticed that the margin of error for the grind-out games are much slimmer.

I agree that Dredge is a combo deck at heart (which makes me think twice about the game plan that I'm leaning towards), but I've always felt that the deck has been more reliable when run with as few of its optional "packages" as possible. That might just be me though.

Kind Regards,
jares

[Final Fortune]

I'm not sure about the "over-emphasizing" part, but I've noticed that I've also been leaning more and more towards the play-style of grinding games out (especially post-board) rather than on the combo plan. This inclination has caused me to value Cabal Therapy even more (especially the blind therapies), and have prompted me to be more critical of the sideboard cards that I need to include, as I've noticed that the margin of error for the grind-out games are much slimmer.

I agree that Dredge is a combo deck at heart (which makes me think twice about the game plan that I'm leaning towards), but I've always felt that the deck has been more reliable when run with as few of its optional "packages" as possible. That might just be me though.

Kind Regards,
jares

The thing is, Dredge is not a combo deck at heart and it never was a combo deck at heart if you had played all of the iterations of Dredge in the history of Legacy, people just don't understand how Dredge works without the explosive openings and combo finishes as well as they do with them. I've always emphasized the DDD approach to Dredge, and while I've opened up my play to include the combo approach as well, the fact of the matter is that any moron can "go off" with Dredge so it's not really where you should be spending your energy learning how to play the deck.

[jares]

The thing is, Dredge is not a combo deck at heart and it never was a combo deck at heart if you had played all of the iterations of Dredge in the history of Legacy
I won't be able to claim to have been able to play all the iterations of Dredge, but based on what I've been able to learn so far, this is where we would disagree. I do understand what you're trying to say, though, and it seems to me that it's really just a matter of how we look at the core mechanism that makes Dredge what it is.

the fact of the matter is that any moron can "go off" with Dredge so it's not really where you should be spending your energy learning how to play the deck.
More importantly, this is where we agree, and I expect most to eventually discover this for themselves too.

Cheers,
jares

[Gui]

I agree that Dredge is not a Combo deck at heart. It's an aggro-combo deck at heart. Whenever you win without casting a draw spell, or going DDD route, you are just going aggro instead of combo, imo.

LED dredge, however, tries to maximize the combo route, and since everyone plays LED these days, this is probably why everyone call Dredge a combo deck.

[Michael Keller]

I agree that Dredge is not a Combo deck at heart. It's an aggro-combo deck at heart. Whenever you win without casting a draw spell, or going DDD route, you are just going aggro instead of combo, imo.

LED dredge, however, tries to maximize the combo route, and since everyone plays LED these days, this is probably why everyone call Dredge a combo deck.

Dredge most definitely is a combo deck at its very core. The fundamentals that the deck is largely predicated on are a blueprint that mirrors every other type of combo-oriented deck in the format; it just happens to use creatures to win the game instead of the Storm mechanic (I'm referring to LED Dredge here, btw).

LED is LED in the deck; there is no discrimination there. Your draw spells, however, act like tutors because they allow you to plow through your library, thus placing the cards you need into your graveyard - which is virtually an extension of your hand. This fetches up win-conditions and allows you to use accelerates like Cabal Therapy into a massive amount of tokens. There really is no difference in how you're proceeding to win the game except that you're not playing Ritual effects but Therapies and you're not playing tutors you're playing draw spells. It's idealistically the same premise.

Dread Return is basically like your Tendrils (in a generic Storm comparison): it wins you the game when you cast it.

[Bright Light Bringer]

I'm a Reanimator player and I've been looking into dredge lately because I like the cemetery mechanic these two decks use. However, I've played dredge for a couple days and I found it extremely hard to deal with hate, much harder than with Reanimator. Since I'm not used to playing dredge, I assume its my fault, but I'd like to know what do you guys usually plan for game 2 and 3 sibeboard wise. Is there a general plan, an auto-include or something of sort? Cards such as graffdigger's cage simply blew me out and obviously I couldn't rely on Ancient Grudge to kill it, but even tormod's crypt/relic usually hold me enough for the opponent to beat me since there is no tutoring or hand sculpting in this deck, so you either draw it or you lose. Thus, I'm really curious, especially after this deck achieved the DtB position, so please enlighten me.

[joemauer]

It is a combo-aggro-control deck. If you were forced to only use one description then yes it is a combo deck.

[Anusien]

Post-board don't go all-in. It takes 2 or more Crypts to beat you post-board if you're cautious.

[jares]

This talk about whether or not Dredge is a combo deck reminds me of the "Combo Mode vs. Beatdown Mode" section in The Dark Art of Dredge Fu (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21777_The_Dark_Art_Of_Dredge_Fu.html). In fact, I find this versatility of being able to change modes to be one the best and most fun reasons for playing Dredge.

Cheers,
jares

[Michael Keller]

Post-board don't go all-in. It takes 2 or more Crypts to beat you post-board if you're cautious.

Why not? Why would you wait and let your opponent prepare for the blowout? With limited resources the first turn or two, you're better off just going for the throat instead of waiting two to three more turns while they not only accumulate answers but threats as well. Most players post-board don't know when to even activate the hate, let alone beat you with it on the spot. You're more than likely on the draw, so sure it makes sense not to go all in if an opponent drops a Crypt - potentially after mulling for it. Still, I would go right for the throat if they don't.

I understand the rhetoric behind trying to "pull back" game two so you don't open yourself up to losing straight-up to something like Crypt, but if an opponent just passes the turn, you have the chance to do something real. And it also takes some good mulling in order to set yourself up with a good or acceptable hand - one you can win with relatively fast with.

What good is something extra like Tireless Tribe going to do but sit back and control the rate at which you are discarding cards? That strategy is playing to lose, not win. It isn't going to solve anything when you dredge and open yourself up to something like Extraction or Extirpate; you still have to dredge in order to win. The more and more I think about that strategy, the more it just unravels and doesn't make sense. Improving consistency is fine, but when you strip the deck of its primary fundamental set of acceleration, you're not really gaining anything in the process except some discarding that makes the deck slower. In that respect, my philosophy is simply to blow out an opponent and punish them for poor mulligans.

Remember, you'd have to brick hard against an opponent sandbagging something like Crypt, Nihil Spellbomb, or Relic against this deck, otherwise that shit is getting stripped from multiple Therapy's early. As I had previously mentioned, the only scenario where this logic fails is against Leyline (or in some instances with a Crypt), and in that case I agree with the idea that dumping your hand is suboptimal because you'll obviously straight-up lose. Against anything else I'm drawing/ discarding or I'm just winning. You don't have to have LED on the table to accelerate into a win quickly. This is where anti-hate helps and just allows you to win.

In the hands of a competent Dredge player the deck simply beats itself far more often than any hate card could or ever would.

[Final Fortune]

Dredge most definitely is a combo deck at its very core. The fundamentals that the deck is largely predicated on are a blueprint that mirrors every other type of combo-oriented deck in the format; it just happens to use creatures to win the game instead of the Storm mechanic (I'm referring to LED Dredge here, btw).

LED is LED in the deck; there is no discrimination there. Your draw spells, however, act like tutors because they allow you to plow through your library, thus placing the cards you need into your graveyard - which is virtually an extension of your hand. This fetches up win-conditions and allows you to use accelerates like Cabal Therapy into a massive amount of tokens. There really is no difference in how you're proceeding to win the game except that you're not playing Ritual effects but Therapies and you're not playing tutors you're playing draw spells. It's idealistically the same premise.

Dread Return is basically like your Tendrils (in a generic Storm comparison): it wins you the game when you cast it.

This is such an ugly description of Dredge, if you're not going to take advantage of Dredge's non-interactivity vs U.dec by using DDD a non 0% of the time then you're just better off playing Storm and avoiding graveyard hate. I understand the advantage of Dredge compared to Storm is that it can play its threats individually without over extending into game ending disruption, but over emphasizing that aspect in favor of cute combo finishes that you absolutely do not need to play with in order to win game 1 in favor of eliminating any ability to slow roll your deck just removes an entire angle of attack the deck can use vs. numerous archetypes and it totally makes you more mulligan dependent (which I'm shocked nobody bothers talking about).

Obviously you don't SB in Tireless Tribe vs decks that play Surgical Extraction, but the thing is Tireless Tribe compared to Ancient Grudge, and to a certain extent Breakthrough, gives you some resiliency when Tormod's Crypt does land while giving you way more keepable hands off a mulligan than anti-hate.

I can understand the "slowness" argument of Putrid Imp/Tireless Tribe, frankly it's why I played Phantasmagorian for as long as I did, and if there was any way to cut Putrid Imp, maintain the black creature count for Ichorid and still give the deck forward motion on the play I'd totally go for it but you really do need enablers for Cephalid Coliseum. IDK, I'd be real interesting in trying to play the deck with Tireless Tribe and Lion's Eye Diamond and just tell Breakthrough to fuck off, nobody seems to have gone that route fwiw.

All I know is LED is way too good to cut game 2, I'm always debating Breakthrough tho' because our threat density is already pretty robust and it does not play nicely with Cephalid Coliseum.

[Michael Keller]

This is such an ugly description of Dredge, if you're not going to take advantage of Dredge's non-interactivity vs U.dec by using DDD a non 0% of the time then you're just better off playing Storm and avoiding graveyard hate.

It's well documented that you're an advocate of the "DDD" plan in Dredge. However, you're also a part of the minority on this. LED Dredge is not like any other variation of Dredge, and there is no reason to use the DDD plan when you have a stacked hand, in turn giving your opponent a turn to draw into something relevant. It makes no sense, because you're playing to lose instead of to win.

Storm doesn't say, "Draw, discard, go," so that comparison is moot.

Dredge has plenty of ways to circumvent interaction with Blue-based control decks - winning quick is one of them.


I understand the advantage of Dredge compared to Storm is that it can play its threats individually without over extending into game ending disruption, but over emphasizing that aspect in favor of cute combo finishes that you absolutely do not need to play with in order to win game 1 in favor of eliminating any ability to slow roll your deck just removes an entire angle of attack the deck can use vs. numerous archetypes and it totally makes you more mulligan dependent (which I'm shocked nobody bothers talking about).

This sounds contradictory. First, you're stating that Dread Return is a "cute," unnecessary combo finish, yet on the flip side of your argument you state that slow-rolling your deck is an angle of attack that should not be ignored because of how effective it is. If I'm not mistaken, Dread Return is an incredibly powerful angle of attack the deck can take to victory, arguably the most important alternative. Even if it gets stopped (which is highly unlikely as you've probably torn apart an opponent's hand by the time you've cast it), you still get Zombies out of the deal.

If we're talking about being more mulligan dependent, look no further than the strategy you advocate. The DDD plan opens you up to susceptibility on the draw, in addition to having to have a dredger in your opening hand (or your first draw). Assuming you're on the play and pass the turn - or even if you play first - you still pass the turn and give your opponent one more card. That to me seems infinitely worse when I can just cast one of fifteen to twenty cards and virtually win the game on the spot.


Obviously you don't SB in Tireless Tribe vs decks that play Surgical Extraction, but the thing is Tireless Tribe compared to Ancient Grudge, and to a certain extent Breakthrough, gives you some resiliency when Tormod's Crypt does land while giving you way more keepable hands off a mulligan than anti-hate.

Sure it gives you resiliency. Putrid Imp already fills that role to a lesser extent, so there's no needs to push the issue when your opponent is going to be searching more aggressively for a hand that has something that hates on you while you have exponentially more outs to mirror the events of game one.

Also, Tireless Tribe doesn't necessarily mean you have a more keepable hand than one without one. I'd much rather open the game up with a filter spell to find and dump a dredger into my graveyard rather than opening on a Tribe and no other action - including a dredger. That would in turn force you to mulligan more aggressively. At the very least those filter spells give you opportunities to improve mulliganed hands where you don't have a dredger, as several filter spells searching for anti-hate or dredgers is vastly better than Tireless Tribe and nothing else.


I can understand the "slowness" argument of Putrid Imp/Tireless Tribe, frankly it's why I played Phantasmagorian for as long as I did, and if there was any way to cut Putrid Imp, maintain the black creature count for Ichorid and still give the deck forward motion on the play I'd totally go for it but you really do need enablers for Cephalid Coliseum. IDK, I'd be real interesting in trying to play the deck with Tireless Tribe and Lion's Eye Diamond and just tell Breakthrough to fuck off, nobody seems to have gone that route fwiw.

There's a reason why the deck is performing as well as it has with Breakthrough and it's due in large part because it doesn't use its seven card hand as a crutch for consistency. Breakthrough is a combo card that virtually wins you the game when cast and hitting a dredger and is far more effective off a depleted hand than a Tireless Tribe paired with LED. There is really no synergy there (one is controlled and the other is conditional), which his why people run Breakthrough with LED. It's just retarded.


All I know is LED is way too good to cut game 2, I'm always debating Breakthrough tho' because our threat density is already pretty robust and it does not play nicely with Cephalid Coliseum.

Coliseum is blue mana at its very worst, which is still infinitely awesome. If I open a five or six card hand with a Coliseum, Breakthrough, LED and a dredger, I'm going that route all day. And if an opponent counters it, then I can draw into a plethora of outs - including another land to blow the Coliseum and go off with the following turn. And that can also be padded in the event you have a Looting in your hand to go off with from the LED mana at your disposal. All of that aside, Breakthrough is still pretty busted when you have a dredger in the graveyard.

I agree it doesn't "play nicely" with Coliseum in that you have to dump your hand, but you'd keep them in against the positive match-ups anyhow. Breakthrough curb-stomps opponents who mulligan poorly. I crush Blue decks all the time without the DDD plan, and I really don't like passing the turn with no other plays.

It's obviously two highly contrasting styles of play we have, nothing more.

[Final Fortune]

It's well documented that you're an advocate of the "DDD" plan in Dredge. However, you're also a part of the minority on this. LED Dredge is not like any other variation of Dredge, and there is no reason to use the DDD plan when you have a stacked hand, in turn giving your opponent a turn to draw into something relevant. It makes no sense, because you're playing to lose instead of to win.

Storm doesn't say, "Draw, discard, go," so that comparison is moot.

Dredge has plenty of ways to circumvent interaction with Blue-based control decks - winning quick is one of them.



This sounds contradictory. First, you're stating that Dread Return is a "cute," unnecessary combo finish, yet on the flip side of your argument you state that slow-rolling your deck is an angle of attack that should not be ignored because of how effective it is. If I'm not mistaken, Dread Return is an incredibly powerful angle of attack the deck can take to victory, arguably the most important alternative. Even if it gets stopped (which is highly unlikely as you've probably torn apart an opponent's hand by the time you've cast it), you still get Zombies out of the deal.

If we're talking about being more mulligan dependent, look no further than the strategy you advocate. The DDD plan opens you up to susceptibility on the draw, in addition to having to have a dredger in your opening hand (or your first draw). Assuming you're on the play and pass the turn - or even if you play first - you still pass the turn and give your opponent one more card. That to me seems infinitely worse when I can just cast one of fifteen to twenty cards and virtually win the game on the spot.



Sure it gives you resiliency. Putrid Imp already fills that role to a lesser extent, so there's no needs to push the issue when your opponent is going to be searching more aggressively for a hand that has something that hates on you while you have exponentially more outs to mirror the events of game one.

Also, Tireless Tribe doesn't necessarily mean you have a more keepable hand than one without one. I'd much rather open the game up with a filter spell to find and dump a dredger into my graveyard rather than opening on a Tribe and no other action - including a dredger. That would in turn force you to mulligan more aggressively. At the very least those filter spells give you opportunities to improve mulliganed hands where you don't have a dredger, as several filter spells searching for anti-hate or dredgers is vastly better than Tireless Tribe and nothing else.



There's a reason why the deck is performing as well as it has with Breakthrough and it's due in large part because it doesn't use its seven card hand as a crutch for consistency. Breakthrough is a combo card that virtually wins you the game when cast and hitting a dredger and is far more effective off a depleted hand than a Tireless Tribe paired with LED. There is really no synergy there (one is controlled and the other is conditional), which his why people run Breakthrough with LED. It's just retarded.



Coliseum is blue mana at its very worst, which is still infinitely awesome. If I open a five or six card hand with a Coliseum, Breakthrough, LED and a dredger, I'm going that route all day. And if an opponent counters it, then I can draw into a plethora of outs - including another land to blow the Coliseum and go off with the following turn. And that can also be padded in the event you have a Looting in your hand to go off with from the LED mana at your disposal. All of that aside, Breakthrough is still pretty busted when you have a dredger in the graveyard.

I agree it doesn't "play nicely" with Coliseum in that you have to dump your hand, but you'd keep them in against the positive match-ups anyhow. Breakthrough curb-stomps opponents who mulligan poorly. I crush Blue decks all the time without the DDD plan, and I really don't like passing the turn with no other plays.

It's obviously two highly contrasting styles of play we have, nothing more.

1) There's a difference between playing to win and playing to lose (whatever that means) and playing to win and playing to not lose, either we maximize our chances of winning uncontested and force our opponents to draw/mulligan into hate or we decrease the chances of winning uncontested in favor of increasing the chances of winning contested depending on the opportunity cost of facing said hate. In the case of Surgical Extraction, maximizing our chances of winning uncontested is best, because the contest has minimal impact in our ability to Dredge or deliver the kill compared to other forms of hate (diversifying recurring threats and playing Dread Return and targets is a tangential consideration). In the case of Tormod's Crypt, it's arguable whether or not Tireless Tribe, Ancient Grudge or Breakthrough is the best option, one allows the deck to move forward regardless of whether or not Tormod's Crypt is drawn and conserves resources in the case that it is, the second answers Tormod's Crypt by forcing its activation but is otherwise useless and the third is either allows the deck to move froward regardless of whether or not Tormod's Crypt is drawn, recover from a Tormod's Crypt after its activation but at the cost of exposing the deck to a game ending Tormod's Crypt at any point. Lastly in the case of Leyline of the Void and Grafdigger's Cage, or to a lesser extent Planar Void and Wheel of Sun and Moon, we either address the issue with anti-hate or lose. We have to weigh the value of playing to win and playing not to lose based on the necessity of playing not to lose, neither is better than the other inherently because it's a function of the hate we're facing.

Edit: I suppose Scavenging Ooze and Firestorm are a consideration as well, but frankly Scavenging Ooze is the least of our worries and thus Firestorm is the least necessary SB card we could bring in.

2) I don't choose to DDD when I have a stacked hand nor do I choose to give my opponent a card when I'm on the play, altho' I may choose to draw instead of play given the choice vs. an unknown opponent, so your argument is fallacious. However, by having the ability to play DDD based on the composition of my win conditions, i.e. 4xIchorid vs 3xDread Return, 1xFlayer of the Hatebound and 2xIchorid, I have more flexibility in choosing which hands I can keep and which hands I have to mulligan because I can consistently recur Ichorids as opposed to praying for a board state and window of opportunity to resolve Dread Return. By increasing my ability to DDD, I double my paths to victory and I know when to follow and when not to follow that second path to victory where others don't.

Edit: I don't know where you're comming from when you say that I'm relying on 7 card hands for consistency, I'm not playing Hybrid or Manaless Dredge I'm comparing non Dread Return vs Dread Return based Dredge lists in the two extremes of Quad Lazer and Flayer based lists.

As far as contradictory statements regarding DDD and Dread Return, it's not contradictory statements because Dread Return, at the cost of Ichords, isn't good for the DDD strategy at all. The Dread Return and Flayer of the Hatebound list will mulligan hands where Quadlazer wouldn't have to, and I'm not convinced it'll win any games where Quadlazer wouldn't realistically game 1.

I hope that clears up some of the confusion, because a number of your arguments are just puzzlingly misplaced.

[Michael Keller]

1) There's a difference between playing to win and playing to lose (whatever that means) and playing to win and playing to not lose, either we maximize our chances of winning uncontested and force our opponents to draw/mulligan into hate or we decrease the chances of winning uncontested in favor of increasing the chances of winning contested depending on the opportunity cost of facing said hate. In the case of Surgical Extraction, maximizing our chances of winning uncontested is best, because the contest has minimal impact in our ability to Dredge or deliver the kill compared to other forms of hate (diversifying recurring threats and playing Dread Return and targets is a tangential consideration). In the case of Tormod's Crypt, it's arguable whether or not Tireless Tribe, Ancient Grudge or Breakthrough is the best option, one allows the deck to move forward regardless of whether or not Tormod's Crypt is drawn and conserves resources in the case that it is, the second answers Tormod's Crypt by forcing its activation but is otherwise useless and the third is either allows the deck to move froward regardless of whether or not Tormod's Crypt is drawn, recover from a Tormod's Crypt after its activation but at the cost of exposing the deck to a game ending Tormod's Crypt at any point. Lastly in the case of Leyline of the Void and Grafdigger's Cage, or to a lesser extent Planar Void and Wheel of Sun and Moon, we either address the issue with anti-hate or lose. We have to weigh the value of playing to win and playing not to lose based on the necessity of playing not to lose, neither is better than the other inherently because it's a function of the hate we're facing.

Edit: I suppose Scavenging Ooze and Firestorm are a consideration as well, but frankly Scavenging Ooze is the least of our worries and thus Firestorm is the least necessary SB card we could bring in.

2) I don't choose to DDD when I have a stacked hand nor do I choose to give my opponent a card when I'm on the play, altho' I may choose to draw instead of play given the choice vs. an unknown opponent, so your argument is fallacious.

Not really.

You're predicating your argument on the entire DDD plan, so for the majority of reasoning it is relatively true. The fact that there are a set of variables that allow any player the option of deciding to draw doesn't mean that it necessarily the right line of play, so we can move on assuming that you're pretty much in the minority when it comes to this strategy.

I am not sure how that has worked out for you, but I suppose it depends on your build. You're running Phantasmagorian (a card that is effectively suboptimal in LED Dredge - assuming that's your plan), which is a card that realistically was made to benefit from DDD'ing. That strategy is dated in a deck that is meant to win games on the first turn - games two and three included - because of how explosive it can be and how quickly it can bounce back from something like Extraction or other relegated forms of hate.


However, by having the ability to play DDD based on the composition of my win conditions, i.e. 4xIchorid vs 3xDread Return, 1xFlayer of the Hatebound and 2xIchorid, I have more flexibility in choosing which hands I can keep and which hands I have to mulligan because I can consistently recur Ichorids as opposed to praying for a board state and window of opportunity to resolve Dread Return. By increasing my ability to DDD, I double my paths to victory and I know when to follow and when not to follow that second path to victory where others don't.

You're predicating your starts in large part using this strategy, so the only time it becomes reliable is the first turn, which is a terrible idea. You're just begging for an opponent to gain an advantage on you in so many ways as you become completely naked to to their (effectively) free turn. You're not doing anything but discarding a card, and assuming they have something like Relic, you've basically just given them the win unless you draw into something relevant.

Additionally, I am not certain how you plan to recur Ichorids in such dramatic fashion when you're opening this supposed "path to victory" by becoming susceptible to hate even more than any other strategy. The DDD route is dictated by your seven card hand, and if it doesn't have anything relevant - including a dredger - it basically just boned you out of a turn where you could have played business. Against a competent player this is by far the weakest strategy because they know exactly what you're trying to accomplish on your turn two.

This gives a prepared opponent two turns to set themselves up and create what could be a precarious situation for you and a lost turn with no action. Not very good. Also, you're speaking about mulligans benefiting you when your opponent has to find hate; assuming you opt to take the DDD route, you're additionally predicating your ace start by having to have:

a.) A dredger.
b.) A draw spell.
c.) A land.
d.) An anti-hate spell.

Unless you have exactly all four of these, there is no reason to force that strategy because you can't realistically believe you're just going to dredge naturally and win a game. Actually, in all honesty, Scavenging Ooze becomes incredibly relevant when you opt to go that route.


dit: I don't know where you're comming from when you say that I'm relying on 7 card hands for consistency, I'm not playing Hybrid or Manaless Dredge I'm comparing non Dread Return vs Dread Return based Dredge lists in the two extremes of Quad Lazer and Flayer based lists.

I'm basing my argument on your theory that opting to DDD in a deck using LED is a mistake virtually every single time. Realistically, an opponent is going to find some form of hate in hand or on the table by their turn two. If you're saying that just drawing and discarding is the way to go in this particular archetype, well then I think you're wrong.


As far as contradictory statements regarding DDD and Dread Return, it's not contradictory statements because Dread Return, at the cost of Ichords, isn't good for the DDD strategy at all. The Dread Return and Flayer of the Hatebound list will mulligan hands where Quadlazer wouldn't have to, and I'm not convinced it'll win any games where Quadlazer wouldn't realistically game 1.

Dredge no matter which incarnation you opt to play will mulligan until it has something to work with. In your previous statement, you made it clear that Dread Return is an unnecessary "cute" combo finish, which in turn is pretty much relegating that strategy to the den. However, you then went on to say that other angles of attack, including "slow-rolling" an opponent is generally a very potent strategy because you're not forcing yourself to dump your hand at the cost of losing the game.

I agree with that to an extent at the point where the first turn barrier is breached. If by then you haven't found a way to proactively decimate your opponent based on what type of hand you have and what type of deck they're playing, then there the DDD route becomes simply moot. There is absolutely no reason to sit on gas when you can simply take a risk and try to win the game on the spot.

To put it blindly: I like taking risks in the second game because I always want to close the game out and not prolong it to the point where my opponent can find hate to blow me out completely. I would rather it happen on turn one than turn two, but again, I'm not saying I would just run head-first into a Crypt because that's not how I play. When I say I "play to win" it means that - depending on my opponent's deck - I will aim to put the game out of reach turn one or at the latest turn two so I can make their potentially weak five to seven card hand useless.

Getting hit by a top-decked Crypt is fine when my opponent is staring down six to ten Zombies and maybe a giant Troll in play preparing for the winning strike. Otherwise, I am not going to wait or slow-roll them so they can find answers. Simple.


I hope that clears up some of the confusion, because a number of your arguments are just puzzlingly misplaced.

I think that's probably due to the fact I am nit-picking a portion of your argument that makes no sense to me from a competitive standpoint. Your ideology is fine, it's just that if by now you haven't noticed you're in the minority about the strategy you opt to take and because you are you haven't provided any data or results from any major tournaments you've personally played in to justify why you feel as though your ideas are optimal from that competitive standpoint. I just can't get on board with that plan at all.

EDIT: I'm not trying to be rude, I am simply stating I do not agree with your philosophy, that's all.

[Final Fortune]

Judging on your assumption that I'm playing Phantasmagorian and your inability to differentiate between arguments I've made regarding DDD as the central strategy of Dredge instead of DDD as a branch of a tactical decision tree based on what land I see my opponent play and what hand I've chosen to keep, I think you're totally missing my point and need to re-read what I've written in this thread thoroughly while disregarding what I wrote in the previous thread entirely.

Also, I think you're cherry picking your arguments in order to argue with yourself and not me, I said I more often than not choose to DDD game 1 vs unknown opponents regardless of whether or not I win the coin flip. At no point did I say, or have I ever said, that DDD addresses SB hate - it simply mitigates my exposure to Force of Will and Wasteland. Secondly, I don't think you actually know how I played my Phantasmagorian based lists game 2, I counted on them putting me on the play so that I could have a chance to win the game before they could play their hate and the deck never "relied" on 7 card hands in order to function, it could still discard Dredgers and Phantasmagorian with Careful Study just fine. I don't want to get into a protracted argument about Phantasmagorian because that's not what I'm advocating in this thread at all, but you're making a lot of assumptions about things I've already explored and addressed and you're taking things completely out of context.

I get you like to gamble and go off blind into an unknown opponent game 1 hoping it'll increase your overall win percentage, not everybody feels the same as you do and I'm not alone on this. Furthermore my argument is still entirely valid regarding the game where your don't win the die roll, don't play first and you're stuck in a position where playing the Flayer list is weaker than playing the Quad Lazer list - and that is not disputable and it's the actual crux of my argument regarding DDD when it's theoretically 1 in every 6 games you play in a match vs U.dec, you don't give a shit about fair decks and Storm isn't a relevant % of the metagame -

[Tammit67]

2) I don't choose to DDD when I have a stacked hand nor do I choose to give my opponent a card when I'm on the play,


Must be nice to see your hand before you choose to play/draw

[Michael Keller]

I get you like to gamble and go off blind into an unknown opponent game 1 hoping it'll increase your overall win percentage, not everybody feels the same as you do and I'm not alone on this.

No offense, but you really must be thick if you think I actually "gamble" my game one's in an unknown meta. I play the deck straight-forward and to the point. In case you haven't noticed, I can back up my performances with the LED archetype with a history and win percentage that is incredibly high because I know exactly how the deck works, how to play it, how to sideboard, and what hands to keep. I have the factual data to back up my points. You, however, continue to masquerade and hide behind rhetoric with no proof what so ever or any personal testimony with a high placing mirroring the usage of your ideology.

I am really not taking things out of context; I'm being pretty straight-forward here. You're in a minority of players who feel as though DDD'ing is still a viable line of play using a specific variation of an existing archetype, and I believe you're wrong. No sugar-coating there. Tammit said it best:


Must be nice to see your hand before you choose to play/draw.

It seems like opting to draw first means you're the one gambling on whether or not your seven is keepable in an unknown meta, don't you think?


Furthermore my argument is still entirely valid regarding the game where your don't win the die roll, don't play first and you're stuck in a position where playing the Flayer list is weaker than playing the Quad Lazer list - and that is not disputable and it's the actual crux of my argument regarding DDD when it's theoretically 1 in every 6 games you play in a match vs U.dec, you don't give a shit about fair decks and Storm isn't a relevant % of the metagame -

I don't play the Quadlazer or the Flayer lists, so that doesn't matter to me at all. Again, you're comparing apples to oranges (Quad/Flayer). You have no proof your strategy is successful to the degree that you have won an incredibly high percentage of your games because of it. You also continue to try and justify altering your strategy against "U" decks, when in reality, you already crush them to begin with. And what is this "1 in 6" theory you're talking about? Can you actually prove that with numbers or are we just taking your word for it?

If your hand sucks, it doesn't matter what variation of Dredge you're playing - you mulligan. You don't opt to draw first because you think it will somehow confuse your opponent or give you a leg up with some measure of consistency, because it won't. Putting yourself in a position where you're already giving the opponent knowledge, an extra turn, and an extra card is a mistake first and foremost game one. Once the cat's out of the bag, they're mulling to beat your start. And if they do, you're already at a disadvantage because not only do they know what you're on, they can find an acceptable way to beat it or slow it down.

That is catastrophically bad game one.

Of course Storm isn't a relevant percentage of the metagame. What difference does it make? You continue to ramble ideas without actually proving they work to a degree of success where it would be necessary to deploy them deep in a large, sanctioned event. Until then, all it is is incoherent rambling until you can prove otherwise.

I'm all on board if you can.

[Final Fortune]

Must be nice to see your hand before you choose to play/draw

What is it that you do not understand, if your opponent chooses to play game 1, or you choose to draw game 1, then you have more playable hands and more tactical choices by being able to DDD than if you had chosen to play because you can either use your end step as your discard outlet or mulligan accordingly? It doesn't matter at which point you choose to draw, before or after, because either you choose to keep or mulligan and then choose to play or draw based on your remaining hand or you choose to draw and keep or mulligan based on whether or not you have a hand that can DDD, combo out or can do neither and needs to mulligan into a hand that can combo out. Obviously the first would be superior if it were possible, but it's not necessary because it doesn't matter when you choose to draw if you always choose to draw and the deck can still play "normally" with or without DDD on the draw.

@Hollywood

I'm not going to get into an argument regarding tournament history and play skill, it'd be impossible to know whether or not a Dredge player always chose to draw game 1 based on his win percentage and placing regardless. Given the horrible decks, horrible pilots and unprepared metagames we've seen in recent history, I'm convinced a trained monkey could play the deck proficiently even if he couldn't play it optimally. I prefer to make my judgements based on my own experiences and playtesting and not some one else's attempt to pass off SCG tournaments as empircal data despite the hidden variables.

Obvioulsy if your hand sucks, then you mulligan it but it's not as simple as hands that suck and hands that don't suck because there are hands that are playable and hands that are not playable based on the context. My argument is that there's a range of hands that are playable with DDD that are better than mulliganing to six cards that you can keep while you're on the draw but you can't keep while you're on the play because you either have no way to discard the Dredger or you need to cast your acceleration in order to do so and then you no longer have any gas the following turn.

I don't understand what you're talking about when you say that I'm giving my opponent an extra card or that I'm giving my opponent a chance to mulligan into a hand that can beat me, I'm not winning the coin flip, choosing to play and passing my turn in order to give my opponent the initiative and a free card - this isn't game 2 with Manaless Dredge and I'm not trying to DDD no matter what because it's my only discard outlet - I'm either choosing to draw when I win the coin flip, or my opponent is playing when he wins the coin flip, and there's no way my opponent can punish me for drawing because he doesn't play hate game 1, the draw step lets me circumvent interaction with counter spells and Wasteland and the only risk is allowing Storm to race me game 1 without a chance to disrupt them first - which is why I said it's irrelevant because Storm is such a small representation of the metagame and therefore it's only a minor risk -

The drawback of always choosing to draw before you see your hand game 1 is very low, and I said you play ~ 1/6 games in potential DDD mode as a default because at the beginning of a match, which lasts 3 games, your opponent wins the coin flip and chooses to play game 1 50% of the time. At which point, you always have to consider whether or not you can keep a 7 card hand based on the usefulness of your discard step as a discard outlet or whether or not you should use DDD if you see your opponent play an Island and can disrupt your combo gameplan after you've chosen to keep.

I think there's something very wrong with this discussion, because you keep bringing up points that seems to me like you're just assumming I'm talking about Hybrid or Manaless Dredge when I'm not or that assumes that I'm always DDDing Game 1 when I choose to draw and that's not the case. Or maybe I'm misreading and you're saying that you think it's more important to play and try to go off with LED and a draw spell before your opponent can play a land and draw a card instead of being certain you can always discard your Dredger with your end step if need be game 1? I understand and agree with the argument in post-board games, but I don't think the need to win that fast or win undisrupted (in terms of dedicated hate and not discard or counter spells) is that important as long as you consistently win game 1 and that's my approach. I just try to be as cosnistent and uninteractive as possible game 1 vs Islands, and everything else I'll probably beat regardless by drawing an 8th card and playing the game out normally vs Goblin Lackey, go etc.

I illustrated Quadlazer and Flayer lists because it shows the trade off between Ichorids and Dread Returns in DDD better than any other lists, where 3xIchorid and 2xDread Return or any other middling combinatoric is much murkier. I tried to address two issues here, why the Flayer list was bad because it fucked up your alternative strategy game 1 a non 0% of the time and my approach towards SBing and the necessity of it, then you just started talking about Phantasmagorian and DDD as if it were the center of my argument - which it's not - I'm arguing that it's better to choose to draw game 1 if you're given the choice, because you gain another branch in your tactical decision tree by being able to use the end step as your discard outlet if you need to at a low opportunity cost that you'd have to accept at least 50% of the time anyway, nothing more as you seem to keep implying.

[Final Fortune]

I am really not taking things out of context; I'm being pretty straight-forward here. You're in a minority of players who feel as though DDD'ing is still a viable line of play using a specific variation of an existing archetype, and I believe you're wrong. No sugar-coating there. Tammit said it best:



Here's the problem, I'm not talking about Phantasmagorian, DDD as a primary strategy, Hybrid Dredge, Manaless Dredge or any variant of Dredge not included in the opening post and you've completely misinterprted what I've written for multiple pages of responses.

Re-read what I'm saying, carefully, I'm only discussing the merrits of choosing to draw game 1 and how the composition of your win conditions affects the consistency of your deck in DDD, not whether or not you should build your deck specifically in order to DDD every game with Phantasmagorian. I only mentioned Phantasmagorian because I agreed with your concerns about Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe being slow and wanting to circumvent the process of playing them in order to discard my Dredger altogether, the problem being that I haven't found an effective way to do that other than always choosing to draw game 1 and always being able to DDD when it makes sense to do so. This is also why I think more people complain about only having 8 Golden Lands in the MD more than I do, because they're on the play game 1 50% of the time and have to cast Putrid Imp as an outlet more often.

I play Quadlazer and I always choose to draw game 1 because I prefer to have the option to DDD when necessary, that's it.

[Tammit67]

What is it that you do not understand, if your opponent chooses to play game 1, or you choose to draw game 1, then you have more playable hands and more tactical choices by being able to DDD than if you had chosen to play because you can either use your end step as your discard outlet or mulligan accordingly? It doesn't matter at which point you choose to draw, before or after, because either you choose to keep or mulligan and then choose to play or draw based on your remaining hand or you choose to draw and keep or mulligan based on whether or not you have a hand that can DDD, combo out or can do neither and needs to mulligan into a hand that can combo out. Obviously the first would be superior if it were possible, but it's not necessary because it doesn't matter when you choose to draw if you always choose to draw and the deck can still play "normally" with or without DDD on the draw.


In the part I quoted above, you made it seem like the choice to play or draw was made after you are able to view a hand, which is wrong.

I still very much want to be on the play game 1 against everything in this meta. Either my opponent:

A) Is combo, in which case I am going to want the added speed to find a good number of cabal therapies to turn this in my favor. Getting to use my hand before it gets hit by discard or daze or even silence is crucial. Or before show and tell resolves.
OR
B) Is not combo, in which case they have very real ways of interacting with us game one (either wasteland/manland or wasteland alone, stoneforge/batterskull/jitte, or ooze or non force of will counterspells) that all are limited in terms of speed by mana development and or turn cycles. If you announce your desire to draw, your opponent gets to mulligan aggressively to one of these lines of play, and gets to execute it first. Not only do you tell him how to beat you, you give him a head start!

Dredge post faithless looting has enough redundancy with a normal hand to power through most anything game one just by overloading the opponent's resources and surprise. I see little reason to have some more flexibility when you can just kill them and move on to game 2.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Final Fortune, what are your gains from drawing?

-> Yarding a Dredger 100% of the time.
-> "tactical choices" how you call it, which is unnecessary IMO because your opponent is A) a unknown deck, or B) you have so many ways to yard a dregder or overwhelm them on turn 1, anyways.

Regarding to A) You don't alway know what your opponent ist playing, if they open with let's say Delta -> Go. What is your strategical choice now? You DDD because they are U [could be Esperblade or RUG or whatever the fuck plays counterspells] for yarding a dredger? Turns out it is Reanimator or Combo, they killed you because they had that extraturn.


What are your losses from drawing?

-> Your opponent knows you are playing dredge, and can adapt his playstyle / mulligan / brainstorm / whatever decisions very well
-> First turn Hierarch into 2nd turn Ooze, ouch.
-> Not being able to explode and tear the game open turn 1 due to Spell Pierce, Daze...
-> lesser chances against Combo, They have 2 landdrops and can kill you undisrupted.
-> You can lose against hyperaggresive decks like UR-Delver or the mirror.

There aren't any relevant pros for always choosing to draw g1.

[jares]

Final Fortune, what are your gains from drawing?

-> Yarding a Dredger 100% of the time.

Just a quick response to the bullet point above: a Thoughtseize/Duress can keep you from being able to discard a card during your discard phase, which shows that the probability of discarding a Dredger via the discard phase is less than %100.

Having recently leaned towards the more "grindy" play style (for lack of a better word), I've also been considering running Phantasmagorian and go with the DDD route on purpose (and potentially saving some main-deck space). So far, It's been challenging to justify this exploration, though I haven't really gone through it in-depth (probably not as thoroughly as Final Fortune). I might even need to go through the old thread to learn a bit more. :tongue:

Kind Regards,
jares

[Gui]

Final Fortune, what are your gains from drawing?

-> Yarding a Dredger 100% of the time.
-> "tactical choices" how you call it, which is unnecessary IMO because your opponent is A) a unknown deck, or B) you have so many ways to yard a dregder or overwhelm them on turn 1, anyways.

Regarding to A) You don't alway know what your opponent ist playing, if they open with let's say Delta -> Go. What is your strategical choice now? You DDD because they are U [could be Esperblade or RUG or whatever the fuck plays counterspells] for yarding a dredger? Turns out it is Reanimator or Combo, they killed you because they had that extraturn.


What are your losses from drawing?

-> Your opponent knows you are playing dredge, and can adapt his playstyle / mulligan / brainstorm / whatever decisions very well
-> First turn Hierarch into 2nd turn Ooze, ouch.
-> Not being able to explode and tear the game open turn 1 due to Spell Pierce, Daze...
-> lesser chances against Combo, They have 2 landdrops and can kill you undisrupted.
-> You can lose against hyperaggresive decks like UR-Delver or the mirror.

There aren't any relevant pros for always choosing to draw g1.

I agree with this, QFT.

[4eak]

I've recently picked up dredge again. After a good bit of playtesting, this is the list I have so far. FWIW, this is the list I have so far:

// Lands - 14
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel

// Dredgers - 12
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp

// GY Goodies -- 17
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
2 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below

// Acceleration - 16
4 Breakthrough
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study

// Lonely & Sad - 1
1 Putrid Imp

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Ray of Revelation
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge

SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

SB: 3 Putrid Imp
SB: 2 Tireless Tribe

I had 4x PImps in the main, but frankly, I've liked Careful Study, Dredgers, and land more. I'm not even sold on the singleton in the main. I can't seem to find what I want for that spot though. If I really want the ability to grind, I can side in the permanent outlets. Most of the time, I just want my draw spells to do most all of my dirty work.

Ray is looking worse and worse. I think Leyline/Wheel looks worse and worse, and Cage better and better. I may eventually lose them (a surprise to me), but they stay for now.

Also, thank you for your argument about DDDing, Final Fortune. The argument is not new to me, I've just been a bit dogmatic in always wanting to be on the play with LED/Faithless Looting variants. I haven't actually spent much time actually trying out DDD, and I should have (*the argument for a such a practice was much stronger before Faithless Looting, both for LED and LEDless). You might be right. I'm going to have to at least try it.


peace,
4eak

[Izor]

@ 4eak:

The list I've been playing the last few weeks/months is practically the same, just -1 DR +1 Putrid Imp main.


Cutting back on Putrid Imps is the way to go in LED Dredge for the future. Everything else in the deck is just way more important or just more powerful. I'd not cut any of the draw spells (especially not Breakthrough, guys. Really, why would you not play a 1 mana spell that just wins the game alone?) before cutting Imps.


Also, I play some number of discard dorks in the sideboard as well, because they are absolutely necessary to win against RUG Delver or other fast decks with an active Crypt/Relic/Spellbomb.

[lordofthepit]

I've recently picked up dredge again. After a good bit of playtesting, this is the list I have so far. FWIW, after a good bit of playtesting, this is the list I have so far:

// Lands - 14
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel

// Dredgers - 12
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp

// GY Goodies -- 17
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
2 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below

// Acceleration - 16
4 Breakthrough
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study

// Lonely & Sad - 1
1 Putrid Imp

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Ray of Revelation
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge

SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

SB: 3 Putrid Imp
SB: 2 Tireless Tribe

I had 4x PImps in the main, but frankly, I've liked Careful Study, Dredgers, and land more. I'm not even sold on the singleton in the main. I can't seem to find what I want for that spot though. If I really want the ability to grind, I can side in the permanent outlets. Most of the time, I just want my draw spells to do most all of my dirty work.

Ray is looking worse and worse. I think Leyline/Wheel looks worse and worse, and Cage better and better. I may eventually lose them (a surprise to me), but they stay for now.

Also, thank you for your argument about DDDing, Final Fortune. The argument is not new to me, I've just been a bit dogmatic in always wanting to be on the play with LED/Faithless Looting variants. I haven't actually spent much time actually trying out DDD, and I should have (*the argument for a such a practice was much stronger before Faithless Looting, both for LED and LEDless). You might be right. I'm going to have to at least try it.


peace,
4eak

Is the plan against Green Sun's Zenith decks (with access to Scavenging Ooze and/or Knight of the Reliquary) simply to try to go off really fast before their hate gets online? Those matchups seem a bit shaky without Firestorm, which can serve as another "slow" discard outlet (albeit not a repeatable one).

[Izor]

Is the plan against Green Sun's Zenith decks (with access to Scavenging Ooze and/or Knight of the Reliquary) simply to try to go off really fast before their hate gets online? Those matchups seem a bit shaky without Firestorm, which can serve as another "slow" discard outlet (albeit not a repeatable one).

The earliest both Knight and Ooze get active in those decks is turn 3. We have a fundamental breakout turn 2 (with LED Dredge). On average, we simply race Scavenging Ooze. Sometimes you can buy time with hardcast Therapy. The games when they have the Surgical or Crypt to buy time are the games you usually lose, though. But in those games, Firestorm usually doesn't help you out either.

Firestorm just gets pushed out in LED lists. It's not needed as much because of the extra speed and it is pretty antisynergistic with LED as such as well.

[joemauer]

Cutting back on Putrid Imps is the way to go in LED Dredge for the future. Everything else in the deck is just way more important or just more powerful. I'd not cut any of the draw spells (especially not Breakthrough, guys. Really, why would you not play a 1 mana spell that just wins the game alone?) before cutting Imps.


This is a fallacy. Breakthrough more often than not does not win the game on it's own. Usually it wins the game in conjuction with LED, Pimp, or study.

I have been playing three breakthroughs lately. It is the worst draw spell to have as multiples in your hand. Does almost nothing as your only draw & discard spell in hand. Isn't that great at filtering. Generally gets sided out games 2/3, and if we are already winning game one then why are all these breakthroughs so important?

It is the most explosive draw spell, but it is also the most situational draw spell to abuse. Study effects are always good even without dredgers in hand. Hand sculpting is awesome in Magic.


@4eak: I usually use chain of vapor as nature's claim 5 & 6, instead of the usual rays. They are easier to cast and good in other matchups.

[4eak]

Is the plan against Green Sun's Zenith decks (with access to Scavenging Ooze and/or Knight of the Reliquary) simply to try to go off really fast before their hate gets online? Those matchups seem a bit shaky without Firestorm, which can serve as another "slow" discard outlet (albeit not a repeatable one).

Yeah, I race Maverick. Firestorm is good against it, no doubt. I don't have room for them. I think they are weaker than you imply as well. You only have at most 4 firestorm, and you have to open with it, 1 of 8-9 rainbow lands, and otherwise a keepable hand (much less than 40% chance). You won't be consistently seeing & using Firestorm. This isn't a reason not to play it against Maverick if you have it in the sideboard, but if your matchup was shaky before, Firestorm isn't going to consistently make it not shaky.

Maverick with an e-tutor board is also a nightmare. Therapy does a lot of work against GSZ, but E-tutor is turn 1.


@4eak: I usually use chain of vapor as nature's claim 5 & 6, instead of the usual rays. They are easier to cast and good in other matchups.

I'm just not a fan of Chain of Vapor. Against GY hate, if you can't Therapy or win on the same turn, it isn't a great option. Besides enchantment GY hate and the very rare prison deck, where you do you bring in CoV's?


peace,
4eak

[badjuju]

I suppose it isn't coincidence that I started cutting Pimps as well. I know people were already talking about doing so in the thread, but I didn't believe it till I started caring for him less and less. Even the Ichorid food argument doesn't really count anymore; the 8 studies goes far enough that we don't even need the dork (at least game 1). I was actually looking for more looting effects to replace the Pimp slot, but there really isn't much else. Tried Burning Inquiry - did not like.

I too have been sitting at 14 lands for a while. The more I add, the happier I am.

I just realized that this post doesn't really offer any significant insight lol. Just confirming that we're arriving at similar conclusions. Also, Izor is right about 4 Breakthroughs. This is the deck's ultimate knockout punch. Even if they're sided out games 2 and 3, the card allows you to race vs combo and ooze g1. It's irreplaceable.

[joemauer]

I'm just not a fan of Chain of Vapor. Against GY hate, if you can't Therapy or win on the same turn, it isn't a great option. Besides enchantment GY hate and the very rare prison deck, where you do you bring in CoV's?


Reanimator is the obvious.

I also like chain of vapor against Maverick. When you don't know if you will be battling an ooze, knight, or e. Tutor, chain becomes a good catch all. With Maverick it is easier to sculpt your hand and go off in one turn because of their lack of counter magic/discard.

[feline]

If it helps the couple of above posts, I too when faithless looting was spoiled, was already looking at cutting putrid imp, because faithless looting draws & discards, while putrid imp only gives you discard, it is less ichorid food, but latley ichorid is looking like a 2 of anymore -vs- a 3 of before looting >^,^< I have toyed around with 2 things, either cut 4 putrid imp -or- cut 1 cabal therapy, 1 breakthrough, 1 tarnished citadel, & 1 dread return, and though i really like having 4 cabal therapy, i have settled for 3 to keep putrid imp for now based on the fact that out of the starcity open series dredge decks that performed and placed in the top 16, they all kept imp and cut 1 of this and that and etc.

[laststepdown]

Therapy is usually fine as a 3 of g1. If that's the plan though, the safe call is leaving the 4th in board-it's really tough for me personally to not have a playset of our best sac outlet/best spell somewhere in the 75.

Edit: Regarding chain vs a card like firestorm against maverick post board; if you've tested the matchup, you know that firestorm is miles ahead here in value, especially vs the fauna shaman versions seeing play at scg opens.

[funyun45]

The earliest both Knight and Ooze get active in those decks is turn 3. We have a fundamental breakout turn 2 (with LED Dredge). On average, we simply race Scavenging Ooze. Sometimes you can buy time with hardcast Therapy. The games when they have the Surgical or Crypt to buy time are the games you usually lose, though. But in those games, Firestorm usually doesn't help you out either.

Firestorm just gets pushed out in LED lists. It's not needed as much because of the extra speed and it is pretty antisynergistic with LED as such as well.

No, the earliest Ooze is active is turn 2, which is an enormous difference. Nevertheless, I agree, LED Dredge does typically race Maverick with Ooze. That, however, is because Maverick will not, on average, get a hand capable of stabilizing against us games 2 and 3 as often as we will get a hand that can beat them before they can do so. It has nothing to do with Ooze's power once it comes down; if Ooze resolves on turn 2 with a green open and, further, they are allowed to untap, then that spells imminent doom. Those games, while not frequent, are really quite decisive, and so I don't think Firestorm should be dismissed so easily. I'm very open to a statistical story about why Firestorm SB is not optimal (ie, it isn't relevant in enough matches to merit the SB slots), but I'm thoroughly convinced, sans such an argument, that it's good enough against a resolved Ooze to merit consideration.

[joemauer]

No, the earliest Ooze is active is turn 2, which is an enormous difference. Nevertheless, I agree, LED Dredge does typically race Maverick with Ooze. That, however, is because Maverick will not, on average, get a hand capable of stabilizing against us games 2 and 3 as often as we will get a hand that can beat them before they can do so. It has nothing to do with Ooze's power once it comes down; if Ooze resolves on turn 2 with a green open and, further, they are allowed to untap, then that spells imminent doom. Those games, while not frequent, are really quite decisive, and so I don't think Firestorm should be dismissed so easily. I'm very open to a statistical story about why Firestorm SB is not optimal (ie, it isn't relevant in enough matches to merit the SB slots), but I'm thoroughly convinced, sans such an argument, that it's good enough against a resolved Ooze to merit consideration.

Izor is right about firestorm not meshing well with LED dredge.

Against Maverick, sitting around with one land untapped is a sure fire way to attract a wasteland(which really sucks for one land hands). Firestorm isn't quite as awesome when a MoM shows up either. And then you got to figure, what do I discard? LEDless usually can pitch some extra lands+goodies, but LED dredge will have to pitch LEDs/studies+goodies. What if you are waiting to firestorm the maverick opponent and he lands a wheel of sun and moon? There are only so many sideboard cards you should/could sideboard in before you dilute the deck. So do you really want to bring in 4 Nature's Claim and 4 Firestorm?

Look firestorm isn't a bad card against Maverick. It is just much easier(or perhaps better) to just win on turn 1 or 2 with some bounce back up.

[Digital Devil]

So do you really want to bring in 4 Nature's Claim and 4 Firestorm?
It seems difficult to bring in 8 sideboard cards in a LED build, but I play non-LED Dredge and my plan against Maverick is exactly boarding in 4x Firestorm and 4x Chain of Vapor: I usually side out Breakthrough if I'm on the draw (don't wanna be nuked by Bojuka Bog) and Careful Study if I'm on the play to make room for Chains (as an answer to Scavenging Ooze/Knight of the Reliquary/Wheel of Sun and Moon), taking out 4x Tireless Tribe for 4x Firestorm. This way I still have almost the same number of discard outlets while I can deal with everything they can throw at me. I also play a singleton Darkblast in my maindeck, so I find myself pretty comfortable against Maverick, except when they stick that turn 2 Thalia =(

[Izor]

Well, I will admit that Ooze can get active on turn two if they have a mana accelerator turn 1, a third mana source and an actual Ooze in their hand turn two. Then they can exile one card from your graveyard, which might not even be enough against your potential big turn. It's when they untap and have at least three activations per turn that it literally eats you up and wins the game. And, of course, it's irrelevant if you went off earlier than their turn two anyway.


On the Breakthrough debate. Breakthrough is the single most powerful spell you can possibly have in a Dredge deck. Dredging twice as much as a Study effect, or just as much as a Study effect plus LED cracked in resp plus Flashback Looting. It can even be used as a discard outlet, and it's even a very fine one. If you resolve BT for X=1 on turn two, chances are the game is over on your next turn.

Breakthrough being twice as powerful as a draw effect than Study/Looting is much more often relevant than many people want to admit. I've had crucial turns where the Study plus LED just didn't Dredge into a Faithless Looting, or didn't find enough Narcomoebas or Bridges or anything else to take the game home right away. And my opponent Tendril'd, Nive Minded, High Tided, KotR'ed (Bojuka Bog'ed), Ooze'd or even just lucksacked me out during his next turn. Resolving a Breakthrough with Dredgers in your yard is certainly among the most powerful plays you can possible generate in this whole game. Stronger than turn 1 Tinker for Blightsteel Colossus. Stronger than Ad Nauseam with lots of mana floating. It's that strong. If I get to Therapy my opponent in the mirror, I name Breakthrough. If my opponent fears one card that might be in my hand after I discarded a Dredger, it's going to be Breakthrough. I hear everyone talk about the completely busted cast Looting, crack LED in response play. That's not the strongest play you have. Breakthrough instead of Looting is 50% stronger. If Breakthroug didn't exist and I was allowed to design a new card for this deck, it would probably be a draw spell that Dredges more than any other draw spell we have for one mana. And I would make it blue and make it a backup discard outlet.

[jares]

I suppose it isn't coincidence that I started cutting Pimps as well. I know people were already talking about doing so in the thread, but I didn't believe it till I started caring for him less and less. Even the Ichorid food argument doesn't really count anymore; the 8 studies goes far enough that we don't even need the dork (at least game 1). I was actually looking for more looting effects to replace the Pimp slot, but there really isn't much else. Tried Burning Inquiry - did not like.

I too have been sitting at 14 lands for a while. The more I add, the happier I am.

I just realized that this post doesn't really offer any significant insight lol. Just confirming that we're arriving at similar conclusions. Also, Izor is right about 4 Breakthroughs. This is the deck's ultimate knockout punch. Even if they're sided out games 2 and 3, the card allows you to race vs combo and ooze g1. It's irreplaceable.
Same here. I haven't really gone and cut the Putrid Imps altogether, but at this point they're also the first ones that I'd cut among the enablers available.

I also agree with Breakthrough being the best enabling play that we can possibly do. We may have gotten too used to the explosive power of resolving a Breakthrough with a dredger in play, and may have also taken that for granted because of the recent re-emergence of LED as the character-defining enabler for Dredge. I personally would want to maximize the probability of getting a Breakthrough in my opening hand as often as I can, so I would surely run the full set in situations where I don't expect any/much graveyard hate to be present (e.g. game 1, occasionally against other combo decks).

Kind Regards,
jares

[Artlee]

Being new to dredge I am not certain when I should "go for it". With this I mean having 1 Stinkweed Imp in grave and some draw spell in hand, lets just say breakthrough.

What experience do you folks have with casting breakthrough in these situations and hoping for more dredgers to hit grave and keep dredging?

[jares]

Being new to dredge I am not certain when I should "go for it". With this I mean having 1 Stinkweed Imp in grave and some draw spell in hand, lets just say breakthrough.

What experience do you folks have with casting breakthrough in these situations and hoping for more dredgers to hit grave and keep dredging?
In this case, I would most definitely go for it! Of course, it would also depend on what the rest of my hand looks like, but assuming that all the other cards I have are blanks, going for it would surely be a good idea.

It's worth noting that one of the major considerations I have for this response is that I try to fit in at least 12 Dredgers as often as I can, as I believe that "Dredge loses if it fails to Dredge" (at least most of the time). Given that the best Dredgers (Dredge 6, 5, and 4) are able to Dredge at an average of 5 cards at a time, and given that your opening hand will usually have 7 cards (and also assuming that you got your Dredger in the graveyard via some means, probably LED), you can expect to chain into at least one Dredger (in the 12-Dredger configuration) 70.36% of the time.

I hope that helps.

Cheers,
jares

[Izor]

Being new to dredge I am not certain when I should "go for it". With this I mean having 1 Stinkweed Imp in grave and some draw spell in hand, lets just say breakthrough.

What experience do you folks have with casting breakthrough in these situations and hoping for more dredgers to hit grave and keep dredging?

There are too many factors that would have to be taken into account, so I can't give you a real answer. You just have to weigh the risk of fizzling against your possible rewards for going for it right now.

Reasons to go for it:
- You play against Combo and don't know your opponent's hand or you know that they're almost ready to go off.
- You have only one land and don't want to get wastelanded.
- You know that your opponent doesn't have any countermagic right now (from Therapy), but you fear that they could draw into some next turn.
- You can cast it for X>=1, so even if you fizzle, you'll have another draw spell left in your hand for next turn.

Reasons not to go for it:
- You have multiple Dredgers in your hand and can't discard them right now
- The Dredger in your yard is a Thug
- You have something else to do this turn and you know you'll get the chance to cast your BT later anyway because you are under no pressure right now.


In general, I would usually go for it. I would certainly go for it if you don't have any other Dredger in your hand in the scenario your described. Also, this was all about BT as your draw effect. If it's something that just discards 2 or 3 instead of your whole hand (Coliseum, Looting, Study), you always go for it.

[Artlee]

.. you can expect to chain into at least one Dredger (in the 12-Dredger configuration) 70.36% of the time.



In general, I would usually go for it.

I agree this was kind of a vague example. I am trying to get the feel of the deck and wanted to hear from some more experienced folks. I have been hesitant as I am afraid to not hit another dredger.

From now on I will try taking the jump more often and get my own feeling of how often it works or not.

Great and valuable info. Thanks Izor and Jares

[claudio.r]

I've been reading the last couple of pages and it seems the LED version is considered the strongest.

As of now i only own 2 LED's, and i've been of magic for some time, i have almost all the pieces for a Ledless list (i used to play before i took some time). Coming friday i will participate in a small tournament here in my town, so i would like to ask you guys how foes a good Ledless list looks like nowdays. Or, a LED list that only plays 2 LED's (which should not be that viable, but since it will be a small tournament, ou never know).

Also, i'm expecting to see the mirror, is playing 4 leylines (of the void) in the sideboard a reasonable choice)?

[Rekk]

I've been reading the last couple of pages and it seems the LED version is considered the strongest.

As of now i only own 3 LED's, and i've been of magic for some time, i have almost all the pieces for a Ledless list (i used to play before i took some time). Coming friday i will participate in a small tournament here in my town, so i would like to ask you guys how foes a good Ledless list looks like nowdays. Or, a LED list that only plays 2 LED's (which should not be that viable, but since it will be a small tournament, ou never know).

Also, i'm expecting to see the mirror, is playing 4 leylines (of the void) in the sideboard a reasonable choice)?

four leylines is great choice for the mirror also if you own 3 led's why would you only play 2?? as for an led less list play the led list but instead of one led use a tireless tribe or put in the last thug

[Final Fortune]

I've recently picked up dredge again. After a good bit of playtesting, this is the list I have so far. FWIW, this is the list I have so far:

// Lands - 14
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel

// Dredgers - 12
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp

// GY Goodies -- 17
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
2 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below

// Acceleration - 16
4 Breakthrough
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study

// Lonely & Sad - 1
1 Putrid Imp

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Ray of Revelation
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge

SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

SB: 3 Putrid Imp
SB: 2 Tireless Tribe

I had 4x PImps in the main, but frankly, I've liked Careful Study, Dredgers, and land more. I'm not even sold on the singleton in the main. I can't seem to find what I want for that spot though. If I really want the ability to grind, I can side in the permanent outlets. Most of the time, I just want my draw spells to do most all of my dirty work.

Ray is looking worse and worse. I think Leyline/Wheel looks worse and worse, and Cage better and better. I may eventually lose them (a surprise to me), but they stay for now.

Also, thank you for your argument about DDDing, Final Fortune. The argument is not new to me, I've just been a bit dogmatic in always wanting to be on the play with LED/Faithless Looting variants. I haven't actually spent much time actually trying out DDD, and I should have (*the argument for a such a practice was much stronger before Faithless Looting, both for LED and LEDless). You might be right. I'm going to have to at least try it.


peace,
4eak

I really like this idea, I've been trying to cut Putrid Imp from this deck game 1 for awhile, but I always replaced it with some kind of functional equivalent. I never thought of just using my DDD strategy to replace Putrid Imp altogether and keep Cephalid Coliseum in the deck regardless to be a turn 3 draw spell. It could be well worth tinkering with.

Edit: That Putrid Imp seems kind of out of place, you may as well up the land count or soemthing to 11.

It kinda makes me wonder what we could effectively use the Putrid Imp slots for, a set of Darkblasts for an uncounterable, discarded Dredge is kind of appealing also because it doesn't set you back nearly as far if it's countered and picks off random targets.

[claudio.r]

four leylines is great choice for the mirror also if you own 3 led's why would you only play 2?? as for an led less list play the led list but instead of one led use a tireless tribe or put in the last thug

Sorry, it was a typo, i only own 2 LED's...

[jares]

I've been reading the last couple of pages and it seems the LED version is considered the strongest.

As of now i only own 2 LED's, and i've been of magic for some time, i have almost all the pieces for a Ledless list (i used to play before i took some time). Coming friday i will participate in a small tournament here in my town, so i would like to ask you guys how foes a good Ledless list looks like nowdays. Or, a LED list that only plays 2 LED's (which should not be that viable, but since it will be a small tournament, ou never know).

Also, i'm expecting to see the mirror, is playing 4 leylines (of the void) in the sideboard a reasonable choice)?
You may want to play around with this LEDless list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13767-Deck-Dredge&p=620282&viewfull=1#post620282) for reference (even if it might be a bit unconventional in subtle ways).

I hope that helps. :smile:

Cheers,
jares

[jares]

I really like this idea, I've been trying to cut Putrid Imp from this deck game 1 for awhile, but I always replaced it with some kind of functional equivalent. I never thought of just using my DDD strategy to replace Putrid Imp altogether and keep Cephalid Coliseum in the deck regardless to be a turn 3 draw spell. It could be well worth tinkering with.

Edit: That Putrid Imp seems kind of out of place, you may as well up the land count or soemthing to 11.

It kinda makes me wonder what we could effectively use the Putrid Imp slots for, a set of Darkblasts for an uncounterable, discarded Dredge is kind of appealing also because it doesn't set you back nearly as far if it's countered and picks off random targets.
I also feel that, even if Putrid Imp has generally been underwhelming in its contributions to the current versions of the deck, we should still try to replace it with something that's functionally equivalent. LED lists may have that added luxury because LED by itself is also a discard outlet, and also because of the reduced dependence on Ichorid, and thus, on black creatures. I like the Darkblast idea, though my initial thought about that is that it's not as reliable as a turn-1 Putrid Imp or even a DDD (and may arguably just be as reliable as, say, a Burning Inquiry).

I hope that they print another Careful Study soon. :tongue:

Cheers,
jares

[claudio.r]

You may want to play around with this LEDless list (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13767-Deck-Dredge&p=620282&viewfull=1#post620282) for reference (even if it might be a bit unconventional in subtle ways).

I hope that helps. :smile:

Cheers,
jares

I dig your list, but i think it's a little too unconventional for me. I always played a minimum of 3 Ichorids, so its a little bit strange to see a list with no ichorids. Have you felt the need of ichorid while playiong that list? Or did you felt it's not needed?

[Izor]

Just play this:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

2 LED
4 Putrid Imp
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

3 Ichorid
4 Bridge From Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return

If you want the 15th Land, cut the DR. If you want a DR package, add a DR target, 1 DR and cut a Putrid Imp and something else.

[Artlee]

I was reading Ando Ferguson's tournament report, and I saw he played flayer of the hatebound. Is there a reason no one in here is using it?

[jares]

I dig your list, but i think it's a little too unconventional for me. I always played a minimum of 3 Ichorids, so its a little bit strange to see a list with no ichorids. Have you felt the need of ichorid while playiong that list? Or did you felt it's not needed?
Oh, you might have overlooked the Ichorids, as I run the full set in the main deck! :tongue:

The list I run is actually VERY dependent on Ichorids, even during game 1. The most current LEDless list that I run forgoes the use of Dread Return, but in the list I showed you, the DRs are there for specific match-ups where the DR targets would be most needed. I would surely help you to play around with the lists that run Tireless Tribe too, and there are even others that use Firestorm in the main deck (which has been much less effective in LED lists, even from the sideboard). Also, the meta that you'll be playing against will be a major consideration, especially since it won't be a very diverse meta (if I understood correctly).

Kind Regards,
jares

[jares]

I was reading Ando Ferguson's tournament report, and I saw he played flayer of the hatebound. Is there a reason no one in here is using it?
Actually, many of the players here have already been using Flayer of the Hatebound. You'll have to do some back-reading to find the references to the lists that use the card as the combo-finisher. The main discussion-point about that list is the use of three Dread Returns in the main deck to increase the likelihood of pulling-off the combo-finish.

Cheers,
jares

[claudio.r]

Just play this:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

2 LED
4 Putrid Imp
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

3 Ichorid
4 Bridge From Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return

If you want the 15th Land, cut the DR. If you want a DR package, add a DR target, 1 DR and cut a Putrid Imp and something else.

I will test a list very close to this one, i'm not convinced that 2 LEDs will be enough, buit nothing like testing to see.

@Jares sorry about that, i overlooked the Ichorids :tongue:

[NecroYawgmoth]

I was reading Ando Ferguson's tournament report, and I saw he played flayer of the hatebound. Is there a reason no one in here is using it?

The only annoying thing is that you need 4! slots to play that Flayer-package, which is many players too much. Flayer is really strong IMO, but the problem for those people not running him is not the creature itself, it's the 3 needed DRs. It's no problem to get that 4 slots if you cut the PImps. My curent Flayer-list looks like that:

//Dredgers
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

//Graveyard Goodies
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid

//other stuff
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

//Lands
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Tarnished Citadel

[jares]

The only annoying thing is that you need 4! slots to play that Flayer-package, which is many players too much. Flayer is really strong IMO, but the problem for those people not running him is not the creature itself, it's the 3 needed DRs.
Discussions about the number of DRs necessary in a build always remind me of the "Spanish Lists" that use only 1 Dread Return in the entire 75-card list, as I've found that configuration to be very interesting. I look at it as a means of saving as much space as possible, somewhat like penny-pinching on the number of slots required for a DR package. :tongue:

In comparison, the "Flayer Package" requires 3 DRs! That's quite a difference in the "cost" of these investments. Maybe we can go with a "Spanish Flayer Package" running only 2 DRs. :tongue:

Cheers,
jares

[badjuju]

Discussions about the number of DRs necessary in a build always remind me of the "Spanish Lists" that use only 1 Dread Return in the entire 75-card list, as I've found that configuration to be very interesting. I look at it as a means of saving as much space as possible, somewhat like penny-pinching on the number of slots required for a DR package. :tongue:

In comparison, the "Flayer Package" requires 3 DRs! That's quite a difference in the "cost" of these investments. Maybe we can go with a "Spanish Flayer Package" running only 2 DRs. :tongue:

Cheers,
jares

I think the idea of running only 2 DRs in a Flayer list has been discussed to death already haha. We've tried it, and it just doesn't feel comfortable.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Discussions about the number of DRs necessary in a build always remind me of the "Spanish Lists" that use only 1 Dread Return in the entire 75-card list, as I've found that configuration to be very interesting. I look at it as a means of saving as much space as possible, somewhat like penny-pinching on the number of slots required for a DR package. :tongue:

In comparison, the "Flayer Package" requires 3 DRs! That's quite a difference in the "cost" of these investments. Maybe we can go with a "Spanish Flayer Package" running only 2 DRs. :tongue:

Cheers,
jares

The problem is, that you need the 2 DRs in the turn you want to kill the opponent. [The first for the Flayer, and the 2nd for the GGT], this doesn't happen very often when you play 2 because you need both :rolleyes:. With only 2DRs I'd play Angel over Flayer [or alternatively 0 targets with Ichorid & Thug nr.4].

[jares]

I think the idea of running only 2 DRs in a Flayer list has been discussed to death already haha. We've tried it, and it just doesn't feel comfortable.
Yeah, I guess so, as I also have that "uncomfortable feeling", the same one I get when running only 1 Dread Return while having a DR target buried somewhere in the deck.

Cheers,
jares

[badjuju]

@Necro

How has cutting Pimps entirely been for you? I have a feeling that you probably don't miss him :P

[NecroYawgmoth]

@Necro

How has cutting Pimps entirely been for you? I have a feeling that you probably don't miss him :P

I board him out nearly everytime anyways, so my only problem now is it to find other cards to board out =P

I like him, and for some reason I think he will be needed as a 4-off in ~2 month, because people are starting to play Crypts again. Still, as long as I don't get overwhelmed by these things, I'm not going to play him. =P

[ZebraSleeves]

Hey y'all. I've been playing around with the idea of using 2 Deadly Allure in the SB as a Firestorm substitute against ooze. It doesn't dilute your deck as much and its not as dependent on your opening hand. The sorcery speed kinda sucks though.

Also, Last week I top 4'd at a local tourney with the Fearless Feldman list. I played a mirror against a Flayer build and he just couldn't seem to go off. It seems very inconsistent. I'll concede that discard dorks make you a turn slower, but I seem to have very few consistency issues with the old LEDless build. Is it really worth it to invest in the LED's?

[Izor]

Is it really worth it to invest in the LED's?

It makes the deck twice as expensive and maybe 5% better. So I guess in that sense the answer is No? I don't know. If you're interested in the most optimal build, I'd try to get LEDs, though. Not that it's always the strictly better build, but sometimes it's better to run them.

deadly Allure is really really bad, sorry. Run Firestorm or nothing and just race them.

[Mojeh]

I played a small local tournament this weekend with LEDless (pretty standard, 15 lands, 12 dredgers, 2 DR, 3 Ichorid, Faithless over TTribes) and I've found the increased speed offered by LED is really, really important.
I lost the mirror miserably, and lost to Maverick due to the lack of speed.

Maverick can come with almost any kind of hate, and sometimes the best thing you can do is just ignore them and race for the win.
Also, I won against Reanimator due to the lack of skill from my opponent, otherwise I would've be crushed.
Really guys, unless everybody returns to play artifact-form hate, I don't think LEDless will ever be as good as LED Dredge.

[Michael Keller]

I believe cutting Putrid Imp is a mistake. It is the really the only permanent-controlled discard effect you have in all three potential games, which in turn makes permanent-based hate strategies less effective against you. Running Tribe and Imp is probably overkill in LED Dredge, but I firmly believe cutting Putrid Imp all together is not the optimal strategy. The card is too multifaceted to cut.

I never board them out game's two and three, ever.

[Izor]

I believe cutting Putrid Imp is a mistake. It is the really the only permanent-controlled discard effect you have in all three potential games, which in turn makes permanent-based hate strategies less effective against you. Running Tribe and Imp is probably overkill in LED Dredge, but I firmly believe cutting Putrid Imp all together is not the optimal strategy. The card is too multifaceted to cut.

I never board them out game's two and three, ever.

I would say that those permanent discard dorks are unnecessary as long as your opponent doesn't meaningfully interact with you. that means as long as it's game one or if they simply don't have any grave hate.

And that leads me to where I fully agree with you. I'd never board them out. In fact, I'm currently running some in my sideboard and I'll bring them in against artifact based graveyard hate over some Breakthroughs/LEDs. I can currently afford those sb slots and it works pretty well.


EDIT: I haven't cut all of them from the md, though. They're still good pre board and I think we should run as many as we can. But they are the first cards for me to cut from the extremely tight main deck, so I'm currently on two (and pretty happy with it). Two more imps and two Tribes currently in the sb.

[Final Fortune]

I'm not particularly keen on cutting Pimps just for some unnecessary Dread Return package, but it's interesting to see whether or not the slots they're replaced with can add to the consistency of the deck - mainly lands IMO.

[jares]

Hey y'all. I've been playing around with the idea of using 2 Deadly Allure in the SB as a Firestorm substitute against ooze. It doesn't dilute your deck as much and its not as dependent on your opening hand. The sorcery speed kinda sucks though.

Also, Last week I top 4'd at a local tourney with the Fearless Feldman list. I played a mirror against a Flayer build and he just couldn't seem to go off. It seems very inconsistent. I'll concede that discard dorks make you a turn slower, but I seem to have very few consistency issues with the old LEDless build. Is it really worth it to invest in the LED's?
It's worth noting that the mere fact that Firestorm is an uncounterable discard outlet makes it that much more of a superior card choice than Deadly Allure.

Regarding LEDless vs. LED, I believe that the difference boils down to the main dependency of the deck - Gold Lands. LED often takes the slots of some of the Gold Lands, and when this happens, the main dependency of your enablers becomes that much weaker - in other words, it's going to be less likely for you to draw a Gold Land to cast a Putrid Imp, Faithless Looting (hard cast), etc. This is also the reason why most of the players here have been trying to find ways and means to fit 14 lands in the main deck (which usually consists of 10 Gold Lands).

If your game plan in playing Dredge is to win as quickly as possible, then Lion's Eye Diamond should surely be an auto-include in your deck. If not, you still need a good reason not to run it, and an understanding of how those reasons will benefit your build.

I hope that helps.

Kind Regards,
jares

[jares]

Have any of you been able to conclude your testing of Griselbrand?

Cheers,
jares

[Izor]

Have any of you been able to conclude your testing of Griselbrand?

Cheers,
jares

I'm staying with my argument that DR targets have to solve a problem for me in order to warrant inclusion. Iona does that, Terastodon and the like do that, even Flayer (vs Propaganda) or Elesh Norn do that. Griselbrand doesn't.

I don't have to spend an overpriced 10 dollars to test him if I already know for sure that I won't run it.

[Calado]

Hi guys! Have someone already lost because of the starting hand? I mean, is a hand without a land keepable?
I'm changing from the Manaless to LEDless Dredge, and was testing the deck (the Konkurs) in Magic Workstation, and I had:
-(7) Hand without lands. I could DDD but I was on the play, so I mulligan'd;
-(6) Hand with land and dredger but no draw neither discard, so mulligan again;
-(5) Hand with a draw and 4 lands (should keep this one?), mulligan;
-(4) Lands and dredger (no draw neither discard outlet).
After that I lost the match. Of course the chance to this happen is low, but did it happen to you guys? What would be the correct play in that case?

[Izor]

You definitely keep Draw effect plus lands at 5

[Felidae]

After almost one month of playing actual magic ( Canadian Thresh, Burn and Hulk Combo) I decided that it was time to play Dredge again, in order to remind my opponents why they usually end up insulting me/ the deck I'm playing.

Round 1: Supreme Blue
G1.: Somehow I fail to find Bridges in my top 30 cards and therefor lose the damage race against Delver and Bolts.

G2.: Turn 2 Breakthrough, gg.

G3.: We end up playing actual magic for a couple of turns, until he eventually runs out of hate and I grind him out.

Round 2: Reanimator
G1.: He got the Daze for my discardoutled and turn 2 Elesh Norn wins the game.

G2.: He's dead before he finds hate for my Leyline.

G3.: Around turn 4 or so the boards looks like this: Me - 1 million token, allmost the entire deck in my grave, 3 Moebas. Him - 0 cards in hand, 4 life, 3 Useas and 1 Delta in play.
The 1 billion dollar question: How can he still win?
He draws, plays Brainstorm, fetches, plays Caresfull Study, discards Blazing Archon and follows this with an Exhume....

Round 3: MUD

G1.: He's dead on turn 2.

G2.: He mulligans into oblivion, I can answer his hate and he dies without any resistance.

Round 4: Burn

G1.: He's dead on turn 2 ( damn those LEDs sure like me).

G2.: He's dead on turn 3.

I end up taking 2nd place, while the reanimator player took 1st.


On a side note:

Good luck to all those people running Grinselbrand this weekend, may the winmore button be with you.

[4eak]

G3.: Around turn 4 or so the boards looks like this: Me - 1 million token, allmost the entire deck in my grave, 3 Moebas. Him - 0 cards in hand, 4 life, 3 Useas and 1 Delta in play.
The 1 billion dollar question: How can he still win?
He draws, plays Brainstorm, fetches, plays Caresfull Study, discards Blazing Archon and follows this with an Exhume....

I don't understand how he Exhumed in this scenario. He had 0 cards, top decks a brainstorm, casts it, finds a Careful Study, puts the remaining 2 cards back, shuffles his library, Careful Study's, presumably finding Blazing Archon and something else, discarding both (having Zero cards after discarding both), and then somehow has Exhume in his hand.


peace,
4eak

[Calado]

That damn Reanimator! It looks that it's always a tough matchup!
My friend stopped playing his Reanimator to make a Sneak/Show deck. I used to side in Faerie Macabre and Leylines against it...

[blindspotxxx]

I don't understand how he Exhumed in this scenario. He had 0 cards, top decks a brainstorm, casts it, finds a Careful Study, puts the remaining 2 cards back, shuffles his library, Careful Study's, presumably finding Blazing Archon and something else, discarding both (having Zero cards after discarding both), and then somehow has Exhume in his hand.


peace,
4eak

I certainly agree with this gentleman. :) You were cheated?

[ZebraSleeves]

I hope that helps.

Yes, Thank you.

[jares]

You definitely keep Draw effect plus lands at 5
I agree, especially if the draw effect is a Careful Study, or better yet, a Faithless Looting. I also look at 3 lands in hand as a near equivalent to a Faithless Looting, as I'll eventually be able to activate its Flashback cost the old-fashioned way. If the draw effect was a Breakthrough, then I would wait until I could do X=1 or even X=2, depending on how the next few turns play out.

Hi guys! Have someone already lost because of the starting hand? I mean, is a hand without a land keepable?

You surely can lose by keeping or taking a mulligan at the wrong time. This is, in fact, one of the less-frequently discussed skills (probably because the people that frequent this forum have already gained much experience on this) that's required of a Dredge player - knowing when to mulligan. Keep in mind, though, that the only other way to influence the decision of when and when not to mulligan is to construct your deck to have the probabilities be in your favor - and this is where it becomes subjectively tricky. :tongue:

I hope that helps.

Cheers,
jares

[jares]

I certainly agree with this gentleman. :) You were cheated?
Cheatyface :really:

[jares]

I'm staying with my argument that DR targets have to solve a problem for me in order to warrant inclusion. Iona does that, Terastodon and the like do that, even Flayer (vs Propaganda) or Elesh Norn do that. Griselbrand doesn't.

At some point, I actually took this thought further by thinking that "I want my DR targets to (virtually) win me the game when they come into play", and it that same way, Iona, Shield of Emeria and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite are both able to satisfy that requirement - and so does Griselbrand. I like the "problem solving" criteria better though, as it addresses the resiliency of the deck.

Cheers,
jares

[Felidae]

I don't understand how he Exhumed in this scenario. He had 0 cards, top decks a brainstorm, casts it, finds a Careful Study, puts the remaining 2 cards back, shuffles his library, Careful Study's, presumably finding Blazing Archon and something else, discarding both (having Zero cards after discarding both), and then somehow has Exhume in his hand.


peace,
4eak

Hhm this really bothers me right now, I'll have to talk with him the next time we meet ( however I don't think that he cheatet, it's more likely that I missed one card in his hand (maybe a land that I didn't wrote down)). Yet somehow my memory tells me that he had zero cards...

[Final Fortune]

At some point, I actually took this thought further by thinking that "I want my DR targets to (virtually) win me the game when they come into play", and it that same way, Iona, Shield of Emeria and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite are both able to satisfy that requirement - and so does Griselbrand. I like the "problem solving" criteria better though, as it addresses the resiliency of the deck.

Cheers,
jares

Griselbrand qualifies as a card that solves problems IMO, drawing 14 cards into a Chain of Vapor and a Land is quite common.

[funyun45]

Griselbrand qualifies as a card that solves problems IMO, drawing 14 cards into a Chain of Vapor and a Land is quite common.

Why do you need to draw into a Chain of Vapor if you can already manipulate your graveyard enough to DR him in the first place?

[Adan]

The 1 billion dollar question: How can he still win?
He draws, plays Brainstorm, fetches, plays Caresfull Study, discards Blazing Archon and follows this with an Exhume...

This should definitely be the reason to run Flayer of the Hatebound and/or an Angel of Despair and Chain of Vapors in the board.

[Calado]

This should definitely be the reason to run Flayer of the Hatebound and/or an Angel of Despair and Chain of Vapors in the board.

I like Angel of Despair (Flayer doesn't help against Platinum Angel/Colossus). But Reanimator runs counters, and Faerie Macabre and Leyline are very successful. I'm not liking the DRs that much anymore...

[K1w1]

I like Angel of Despair (Flayer doesn't help against Platinum Angel/Colossus). But Reanimator runs counters, and Faerie Macabre and Leyline are very successful. I'm not liking the DRs that much anymore...

Flayer doesn't what?
Flayer comes into play = Platinum Angel dead.
I think you mean Platin Emperion, so how about, Flayer comes into play => Emperion 4 dmg -> Therapy/Dread Return with Flayer -> Emperion dead. Afterwards just kill with DR into GGT.

I think i give it a try again to play the Flayer at sunday. With some changes, due to some cards which could be great. I'll reveal the cards, if i have good results.

K1w1

[Felidae]

This should definitely be the reason to run Flayer of the Hatebound and/or an Angel of Despair and Chain of Vapors in the board.

I tend to disagree with you here, at least when I look at the current meta game in NRW ( mostly with an eye on the "big" tournaments in Iserlohn and Dülmen), where reanimator is allmost no meta factor anymore.
Chain wouldn't have helped in the above mentioned scenario anyway, as my hole hand was dumped in the yard thanks to good old Breakthrough.

As far as Flayer / any other DRs go:
Usually I'm not a fan of DR targets, however I understand why people run Flayer, as he's not just winmore but an actuall thread and able to win trough stuff like Archon, Elephent Grass ,etc.
Yet I don't want to waste sideboard place for him / 3 DRs, as long as reanimator and enchantress don't take over the meta.

For reference I'm currently running this board:
1 Tarnish Citadell
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Natures Claim
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Ingot Chewer
2 Coffin Purge / Memory's Journey

[HokusSchmokus]

I am not playing this deck atm as I appear to have slept with lady luck's daughter and she punishes me everytime I use the deck.
Anybody else having huge trouble with variance?

[badjuju]

I am not playing this deck atm as I appear to have slept with lady luck's daughter and she punishes me everytime I use the deck.
Anybody else having huge trouble with variance?

Comes and goes. Like I've said before, a lot of people are turned off by this deck cause it has a tendency to lose to itself off of poor dredges.

If you're talking about mulligans, upping my land count helps immensely.

[HokusSchmokus]

Comes and goes. Like I've said before, a lot of people are turned off by this deck cause it has a tendency to lose to itself off of poor dredges.

If you're talking about mulligans, upping my land count helps immensely.

Not the land count. 12 lands are fine with me, I play 14 atm just because Coliseum only tapping for U. 12 lands worked out quite good though.

The thing is, of all decks I know, Dredge draws the most cards each turn, by quite a bit. So in my world, if you draw 6-12 a turn and you don't see useful cards, there is something inheritly wrong with the deck OR it's statistic holocaust. Every time.

[Izor]

Not the land count. 12 lands are fine with me, I play 14 atm just because Coliseum only tapping for U. 12 lands worked out quite good though.

The thing is, of all decks I know, Dredge draws the most cards each turn, by quite a bit. So in my world, if you draw 6-12 a turn and you don't see useful cards, there is something inheritly wrong with the deck OR it's statistic holocaust. Every time.

Well, you can't just say that Dredge virtually draws X whenever it Dredges for X. Over half of the cards in your deck are literally dead in the graveyard (32 in my list). And after you have enough Dredgers in the bin, each additional Dredger is yet another dead card. The only real business you want to find is 4 Narcs, 3 Ichys, 4 Bridge, 4 Therapy (maybe some DR). In the 6 cards you Dredge with a Troll, you only get 1.5 of those on average. Drawing 1.5 cards per draw is still awesome, though.


As of your consistency issues. Do you mean with the quad list? Doesn't surprise me then. One day after the quad list was first posted on MTGForum I said that 12 lands won't ever be enough in this deck and that people will at some point notice that 14 is the minimum number. In the German forums, of course I got flamed for that. But I'm still holding my point and I would strongly advise everyone to run more than 12 lands in this deck as well.

Remember when I said I still prefer LED Dredge because I couldn't find a LED list I liked. Basically, I wasn't able to add lands. Now I've found the right cuts and I'm playing LED since then. Adding those two lands makes the deck twice as consistent. Try cutting PImps. Never thought I'd ever do that myself, but it's the right call.

[Mindlash]

Not the land count. 12 lands are fine with me, I play 14 atm just because Coliseum only tapping for U. 12 lands worked out quite good though.

The thing is, of all decks I know, Dredge draws the most cards each turn, by quite a bit. So in my world, if you draw 6-12 a turn and you don't see useful cards, there is something inheritly wrong with the deck OR it's statistic holocaust. Every time.

It lies in the nature of the deck itself.
In the Example of Quadlaser we have 12 Lands, 12 Drawspells, 4 LED, 4 Pimps = 32 essential cards for our first 7. You cannot make great cuts here without lowering the chance of drawing them.

After Turn 1 or 2 we turn from "normal" Magic into our Dredge Mode. Now the rest of these 32 cards is useless to us.

Our Deck now relies on the other half of our cards: 12 Dredger, 4 Ichorids, 4 Moebas, 4 Cabal, 4 Bridge from Below.

The 4 Thugs are crappy in terms of dredging but serve as Ichorid fodder and can be hardcast/sacced to reload Moebas.

Ichrorid, Moeba, Bridge are not good in our first 7 but essential dredges. Cabal serves both sides of the deck.

The 12 Dredgers are also only all needed while in grindy games. While Comboing out you only need 4 because you discard them after all of our Drawspells although you need to get them in chains. We dredge for 5 in average. In a sixty cards deck it should be best to have 60/5=12 Dredgers.

Manaless Dredge on the other hand has less explosive starts but better dredges. You replace your Lands by more Threats and Dredgers. To start with Manaless you need only a Dredger and can go into Dredge-Mode. I played 16 Dredgers...so we have more stable (but most of the time slower) hands here.

You also have 4 Dread Return, 4 Nether Shadow and some Targets (maybe 3 Sphinx and 1 Finisher) now.

This maybe the reason why Manaless felt more consistent to me and the reason why LED/LEDless Dredge feels like dredging shit in the Yard half of the time. But i cannot reasonably see a way to fix this.

TLDR: Taken from Kiwis Sig: At good days, you destroy everything. At bad days,
you draw Narcomoebas.

Edit: Izor was faster here :-)

I also have days dredging all but 15 Cards...hitting one Bridge and getting totally destroyed...and on other days I crush people Turn1/Turn2 all day long. Murphys Law says: You will mostly remember the first kind of days :-P

[K1w1]

TLDR: Taken from Kiwis Sig: At good days, you destroy everything. At bad days,
you draw Narcomoebas.

Edit: Izor was faster here :-)

I also have days dredging all but 15 Cards...hitting one Bridge and getting totally destroyed...and on other days I crush people Turn1/Turn2 all day long. Murphys Law says: You will mostly remember the first kind of days :-P

It's really disappointing to have these days. Your day is f***ed up after a tourney you lost due to your own deck.
I also could have the option to play Reanimator, but i said to myself: NO! Be with your deck and destroy Reanimator!
As i said in the post above i wanna try some other (new) cards in the deck, but i think it was a mistake. Goldfished so many times last week and my final decision ( or not, because i change it again at sunday morning :laugh: ) is to play the
Quadlazer -1 Pimp, -1 Breakthough, -1 Thug, -1 Ichorid +3 DR, +1 Flayer like i did the last tourneys.

Or is there anyone who wants me to test a list for someone?

K1w1

Cool signature, eh?

[Michael Keller]

I am not playing this deck atm as I appear to have slept with lady luck's daughter and she punishes me everytime I use the deck.
Anybody else having huge trouble with variance?

None. Not sure if you're doing something wrong or playing in a meta infested with bad match-ups for the deck, but really if you're not mulliganing properly or sideboarding correctly, you're going to falter.

[HokusSchmokus]

I normally take notes on how my starting hands are in tournaments.
Now in my last tournaments playing dredge I drew the ludicrous amount of 17 Narcomoebas in my starting hand, not counting mulligans, in 12 rounds(30 games).
I just give the deck a pause I think, this has to be variance. I mean, I don't play the deck without making mistakes, as I am sure nobody does, but I am fairly certain that I am at least competent with the deck.
Maybe though, post AVR meta will draw me back. If people are right and Blue decks are on the rise, Ichorid seems like the deck to go to.

[Felidae]

Or is there anyone who wants me to test a list for someone?

Go and test Manaless ( with 4 LED / Looting as you suggested last time) for me in Bochum, as I won't bring Canadian to this Meta ever again ( when your best matchup the entire day is loampox then something seriously went wrong...).

[Calado]

Manaless Dredge on the other hand has less explosive starts but better dredges. You replace your Lands by more Threats and Dredgers. To start with Manaless you need only a Dredger and can go into Dredge-Mode. I played 16 Dredgers...so we have more stable (but most of the time slower) hands here.

That's what I'm feeling right now, changing from Manaless to LEDless. Manaless looks so consistent (and is nice with Street Wraith) that I'm not convinced yet that we don't need the 12th dredger.
4 ichorids, 12 dredgers and 14 lands looks more consistent, but trading one of each for 2 DR's+target is so versatile (like Iona on 2nd or 3rd turn)...

[jares]

Based on the flow of your conversations, I was thinking that maybe the Hybrid variant would be worth exploring as a compromise between the strengths/weaknesses of the Manaless and Mainstream variants.

Cheers,
jares

[jares]

Comes and goes. Like I've said before, a lot of people are turned off by this deck cause it has a tendency to lose to itself off of poor dredges.

If you're talking about mulligans, upping my land count helps immensely.
It surely sounds like I'm in the minority here, but I've rarely had the experience of having the deck "lose to itself" - in fact, I don't remember if this has ever happen to me, at least competitively.

One factor might be because I usually choose to play a somewhat unconventional LEDless build, though it's really not too different from the mainstream configurations being used recently. It might also be the play style and game plan when using that particular build, as I'm more used to grinding-out games and winning via a well-aimed Cabal Therapy rather than by combo-finishing the opponent. I guess that the possibility of "losing to one's self" comes with the territory of being a combo deck, which might also explain why I have recently been leaning towards the non-combo oriented game plan.

Kind Regards,
jares

[Mindlash]

It surely sounds like I'm in the minority here, but I've rarely had the experience of having the deck "lose to itself" - in fact, I don't remember if this has ever happen to me, at least competitively.

One factor might be because I usually choose to play a somewhat unconventional LEDless build, though it's really not too different from the mainstream configurations being used recently. It might also be the play style and game plan when using that particular build, as I'm more used to grinding-out games and winning via a well-aimed Cabal Therapy rather than by combo-finishing the opponent. I guess that the possibility of "losing to one's self" comes with the territory of being a combo deck, which might also explain why I have recently been leaning towards the non-combo oriented game plan.

Kind Regards,
jares

I don't think it's entirely based on the combo / non-combo oriented game plan.
After one tournament I even considered learning other (better?) shuffle techniques because some of the losses came due to bad hands.

Going from no dredger and 3 Moeba starting 7 to a 3 Ichorid 6 into a 4 Bridges (hell what?) 5 just sucks. That was the first weekend of Looting with Quadlaser and I played Burn the next 3 weeks because I wanted some consistent hands :-)

This was my worst experience with Dredge and thank God it never got this bad again for a while now...but it doesn't have anything to do with combolist or grindlist, because this hands can be drawn by both versions :-/

At the moment I'm playing Dredge on Magic Workstation, Cockatrice and our weekly torunaments and it works fine. Still using either Quadlaser or Flayerlists. Maybe I was just extremly unlucky at this one tournament (though I also have to mull at least 1-2 times a match).

My greatest Problems now are some matchups though. I seem to be unable to beat Painter. Any tips here? Cabaling Painter and he comes back with Welder. I just cannot get enough Cabals due to his Ele-Blasts countering most of my drawspells. His Deck also features limitless Tormod's...

The other Matchups are Belcher and Sneak and Show which favors the one who won the dice roll it seems.

Most other Matchups are ok for me. Despite this one friend of mine who plays Maverick and consistently can go into Mull 4 with Land, Fetchland, Zenith and Ooze -_- (he should be playing Spanish Inquisition with his mull skills I think :-P)

[jares]

I don't think it's entirely based on the combo / non-combo oriented game plan.
After one tournament I even considered learning other (better?) shuffle techniques because some of the losses came due to bad hands.

Going from no dredger and 3 Moeba starting 7 to a 3 Ichorid 6 into a 4 Bridges (hell what?) 5 just sucks. That was the first weekend of Looting with Quadlaser and I played Burn the next 3 weeks because I wanted some consistent hands :-)

This was my worst experience with Dredge and thank God it never got this bad again for a while now...but it doesn't have anything to do with combolist or grindlist, because this hands can be drawn by both versions :-/

At the moment I'm playing Dredge on Magic Workstation, Cockatrice and our weekly torunaments and it works fine. Still using either Quadlaser or Flayerlists. Maybe I was just extremly unlucky at this one tournament (though I also have to mull at least 1-2 times a match).

Shuffling well really helps! I really put a lot of effort into shuffling my deck as well as I can after every match (and even after every mulligan) so that I can be sure that my draws are as random as possible. If we're not careful, we could potentially draw into a deck that still has "clumps" of cards that are still influenced by the way the previous match played out (e.g. lands clumped together, Narcomoebas and Ichorids having a party, etc.).

This is how I generally do my shuffling sequence:

[2x] Pile Shuffle (15 piles, with varying placements of cards after every 15 cards)
[4x] Riffle Shuffle

Regarding the combo/non-combo game plan, I mentioned this observation because of the following premises (and I believe that these considerations were meant to relate to both the Opening Hand and In-game Dredging):

The combo game plan, by definition, requires a definite set of cards to pull-off the combo (e.g. [2x] Dread Return and Flayer of the Hatebound to pull off the Flayer Kill, etc.). Anything less than the defined minimum requirements would prompt the player to adjust using an alternate game plan, which may or may not be available (it's worth noting that Dredge is one of the few, if not the only combo deck that can also seamlessly shift to being an aggro deck).
The non-combo game plan is much less dependent on specific cards being accessible, and instead works with the available lines of play presented by the cards that a player has access to.

As was mentioned, the possibility of "losing to one's self" (i.e. not "drawing" into the combo, if I understood it correctly) is inherent to the nature of all combo decks - Dredge is just such a versatile deck that we usually have the option to shift gears whenever necessary.

This may not be the case for all the experiences that have been noted here, but I just thought that this might help with some of the considerations being presented, and may explain why I have rarely encountered the scenario of "losing to one's self". It might just be a matter of shuffling though. :tongue:

Cheers,
jares

[Claymore-One]

Hey fellow sourcers, finally got a little r&r, still on dpeloyment though, but I at least got some time to relax. I haven't been in a tournament environment since December, but I have been trying to keep up with reading the forums whenever I can.

I see that Dredge is on the DTB, but this usually fluctuates anyways. There's actually a small group of people on the aircraft carrier that plays magic as well, while most of them are casual there's actually several people who's fairly competitive. I tend to face grave hate, but that doesn't discourage me at all, as I like facing grave hate anyways. I feel like I learn better facing them and learning to play against them than simply retiring the deck until hate disappears, and not wanting to get some experience playing against them.

But at the moment, since I've been out of the environment for a while, what decks, or cards are giving the deck a problem? Oh I also play the 15 land build, with tireless, and 1 MD DR target.

Anyways, good to speak with you all again. I don't know if I can respond to any posts but I can definitely see them while I am out to see. Anyways, take care everyone, and happy gaming.

[jares]

I tend to face grave hate, but that doesn't discourage me at all, as I like facing grave hate anyways. I feel like I learn better facing them and learning to play against them than simply retiring the deck until hate disappears, and not wanting to get some experience playing against them.
That's the spirit! :cool:

But at the moment, since I've been out of the environment for a while, what decks, or cards are giving the deck a problem?
I personally find the following decks/cards to be the ones that I'm usually concerned about (may not be a complete list):

Reanimator: Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Maverick: Scavenging Ooze, particularly when it has the capacity to be online by Turn-2. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben has also been mildly irritating
Stoneblade: Surgical Extraction, particularly when it gets reused by a Snapcaster Mage
Decks that randomly use Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus
Decks that randomly use Leyline of the Void and Grafdigger's Cage
I also worry about the mirror, given that I'm also running LEDless. :tongue:

I hope that helps.

Cheers,
jares

[K1w1]

What a day...went 3-3 in a tourney...i won't write a report, due to this matchups:
2:0 NicFit
1:2 NicFit
0:2 Affinity
2:0 Affinity
2:1 RedDeath?
1:2 NicFit

Srsly?
Played Griselbrand btw..
He was really nice to have!! Maybe not to draw, but to get 7 life due to flayer!


K1w1

Edit: The 3rd round, we got our pairings and i knew against what im playing: NicFit
And what happens? New Pairings

[esqulax]

I am a pretty big noob at dredge so pardon me if this question seems rather stupid, but could somebody please explain to me the benefits of running flayer over flamekin zealot? I really have trouble understanding it.

[HokusSchmokus]

Both Flayer need about the same amount of cards to be set up(Zealot needs more Bridges, Flayer more DRs) and Zealot can be blocked/ there can be Moat or Elephant Grass-ish things.
Also Flayer kills Ooze like a boss.
Your maindeck will be a bit less stable when you run Flayer though, due to the extra DR.

[kombatkiwi]

I am a pretty big noob at dredge so pardon me if this question seems rather stupid, but could somebody please explain to me the benefits of running flayer over flamekin zealot? I really have trouble understanding it.

I guess you win without an attack step so you don't have to worry about moat or elephant grass or whatever.
Edit: Yeah above explains it better than I did

[esqulax]

Yeah I can see some benefits, but isn't it rather easy to distrupt with a single Swords to Plowshares? I mean if they plow your Zealot you still have a bunch of hasty 3/3 zombies.

and do you run 3 Dread Returns with flayer?

[HokusSchmokus]

Yeah I can see some benefits, but isn't it rather easy to distrupt with a single Swords to Plowshares? I mean if they plow your Zealot you still have a bunch of hasty 3/3 zombies.

and do you run 3 Dread Returns with flayer?

It's crucial to run 3 DR with Flayer, yes.
If Flayer gets STP'd it still deal dmg afaik, also you get Zombies with him too, just without the haste.

[NecroYawgmoth]

I guess he means something like: You have a Flayer, and announce the DR targetting your GGT. In response, your opponents Swords/Pathes the Flayer. No damage from the GGT.

You need 3 DRs with Flayer. You get a trickier mainboard by not losing to stupid permanents and you can win on the spot in some situations where FKZ can't. This gives you also a different attack-angle with the deck, cuz you play DRs [which some lists doesn't do anymore]. The downside is that you really need to run 3 DR which makes the deck a bit more inconstant.

The choice is yours. :laugh:

[esqulax]

I guess he means something like: You have a Flayer, and announce the DR targetting your GGT. In response, your opponents Swords/Pathes the Flayer. No damage from the GGT.



Exactly, this just seems like a pretty big downside compared to Flamekin Zealot.

But then again, I have never played the deck at a tournament, only casually.

[say no to scurvy]

So what happened with the dredge players at SCG prov? There were supposedly quite a few playing the deck, including a group of people I knew running a brew of +hapless +fetches + bloodghasts -ichorids -thugs which sounded terrible in theory.

[Izor]

So what happened with the dredge players at SCG prov? There were supposedly quite a few playing the deck, including a group of people I knew running a brew of +hapless +fetches + bloodghasts -ichorids -thugs which sounded terrible in theory.

Hapless, Fetches and Ghast, no Thugs? I hope they all went 0-X and learned how to build a Dredge deck now. Not trying to offend anyone, but seriously...

I'm not surprised that no Dredge deck placed well. The average Dredge player on SCG isn't quite the master with the deck. Only now and then someone lucks himself into the top 16 with horrible lists, and only rarely we have someone who can actually play the deck and places well (like Hollywood, 4eak, etc).

[Calado]

So about the DR targets, does anyone still use Iona? I bought the Flayer, but I'm facing Sneak Show so much and Emrakul makes me crazy! I play Iona+2 DR and the 4th thug.

I'm still thinking about Gisela too, since I can take 7 damage from Emrakul and cause 18 with three Ichorids.

[Mojeh]

Hapless, Fetches and Ghast, no Thugs? I hope they all went 0-X and learned how to build a Dredge deck now. Not trying to offend anyone, but seriously...

I'm not surprised that no Dredge deck placed well. The average Dredge player on SCG isn't quite the master with the deck. Only now and then someone lucks himself into the top 16 with horrible lists, and only rarely we have someone who can actually play the deck and places well (like Hollywood, 4eak, etc).

Sometimes I miss the "like" button in this forum. Totally agreed.

[Digital Devil]

So about the DR targets, does anyone still use Iona? I play Iona+2 DR and the 4th thug.
I like Iona as an emergency button against certain decks, as well as a mean to ensure victory without fearing an opponent's lucky topdeck: she comes in handy against Spiral Tide, U/R Delver, the mirror and to a lesser extent Nic Fit (build-related consideration), while providing a non-Bridge reliant finisher. I play your same exact setup (Iona + 2x Dread Return) in my non-LED build, except I play 3x Golgari Thug + 1 Darkblast. I think the broad applications the creature offers outweigh the loss of consistency given by its sole presence.

[AEnesidem]

Exactly, this just seems like a pretty big downside compared to Flamekin Zealot.

But then again, I have never played the deck at a tournament, only casually.

the chance of a swords to plowshares on your flayer is relatively small since you will at least have some cabal therapies in your graveyard and can easily eliminate them before you DR him, which is what you should always do before casting your game winning spells.

[Gui]

I like Iona as an emergency button against certain decks, as well as a mean to ensure victory without fearing an opponent's lucky topdeck: she comes in handy against Spiral Tide, U/R Delver, the mirror and to a lesser extent Nic Fit (build-related consideration), while providing a non-Bridge reliant finisher. I play your same exact setup (Iona + 2x Dread Return) in my non-LED build, except I play 3x Golgari Thug + 1 Darkblast. I think the broad applications the creature offers outweigh the loss of consistency given by its sole presence.
I also think Iona has wider range than other DR targets in this deck, with close second being Angel of Despair, and then Elesh Norn. Since I'm probably the only person in the world who has lack of space for targets in maindeck, and tend to use them in SB only, these are the 3 I like the most. Currently I only use Iona as target, and from SB.

[ZebraSleeves]

I'm not surprised that no Dredge deck placed well. The average Dredge player on SCG isn't quite the master with the deck. Only now and then someone lucks himself into the top 16 with horrible lists, and only rarely we have someone who can actually play the deck and places well (like Hollywood, 4eak, etc).

I got 75th place at Providence! I used the old LEDless list with lootings instead of tribes.
Okay, okay! I'll do a tournament report, geez. Calm down, guys.

Round 1-Storm

I was paired against this dude Adam who goes to the same weekly Legacy tourneys as me at DieHardGames. He was chill. Tendrils killed me game 1. Grave-trolls killed him game 2. Game 3 on the second turn I dredge into lethal for the next turn and hit his hand with a couple therapies. He brainstorms into a tutor and gets his rituals working, almost kills himself with Ad Nauseum, but gets the storm count high enough take the cake.

0-0-1

Round 2-Affinity

I messed up my decklist because I got to registration late so I had a game loss for this match. game 2 I crush him quick. Game 3 he opens with tormod's crypt and an explosive master of etherium. I have a grudge but waste it on a lethal cranial plating, losing the game on the next turn.

0-0-2

Round 3-BG Pox/Loam

Game 1 he drops a tabernacle but I have enough Ichorids to kill him quickly. Game 2 I start off putting two of my Leylines of the Void onto the board. I reanimate a grave troll and therapy him naming Innocent Blood hitting two of them. The other cards in his hand? Two entombs! He is toast in a couple of turns.

1-0-2

Round 4-RUG Delver

This dude was sitting next to me for the last game and audibly moans when he sees that we are paired up. he tells me he doesn't have any grave hate and thought that Maverick was going to hate dredge out for him. He thought wrong. Games 1 and 2 went by quick.

2-0-2

Round 5-Maverick

I guess this matchup was karmic justice. I was pretty lucky though. He was able to make a board pretty quickly as maverick usually does, but couldn't find anything that interacted with the graveyard. I spent a couple turns returning and sacing ichorids and made about 20 zombies that eventually get lethal past his mom's, knights, and pridemages. Game 2 I am very fearful but decide to just trust my deck and the only change is to board in Elesh Norn for a darkblast. he has a slow start but ends up e-tutoring for a crypt and wipes out a 'yard that i just breakthrough'd into. Luckily, I had six Zombies on the board already and I eventually get the dredge into the Elesh, sealing the deal.

3-0-2

Round 6- UR Burn

I got game 1 with little trouble. Game 2 his thunderous wrath's and flipped delvers coupled with a surgical extraction on my first dredger spelled out my doom. Game 3 he didn't draw into hate and I won the race.

4-0-2

Round 7-Goblins

So apparently this guy is very good at playing this deck since I heard people talking about his list. Anyway, he puts up a pretty good fight in Game 1, exiling my bridges with proficiency. However, its not enough and I get there with ichorids. Game 2 he opens with lackey and I don't have an answer. He lackeys in a Sharpshooter and then gets out a prospector and locks me out with his pinger. Game 3 I was extremely lucky. We both mulligained to 6 and I opened with City---> Imp. He wastelands my city. On my next upkeep I discard grave troll and dredge into 2 narcomoebas. He removes a Matron for his Pyrokinesis and kills all 3 of my guys. In response, i discard 2 Bridges and he just scooped right there.

5-0-2

Round 8-UR Delver

I believe I get the first game in a predictable manner. Game 2 we race and he wins. Game 3 his opening hand has 2 Surgical Extractions and a snapcaster. GG.

5-0-3

Round 9-Sneak Attack/Show and Tell

It has been a long day and my last match kind of put me on a tilt. Game 1 I see a scalding tarn and a divining top and place him on Delver for some reason. I'm taking my time slow-dredging and then he sneaks in a Griselbrand and draws into his Kill.
Game 2 I make army quickly before he drops a Grafdigger's Cage. I kill him with what I've got. Game 3 he opens with the cage and I'm stuck waiting on a breakthrough to take advantage when i bounce the Cage with Chain of Vapor. It doesn't come however, and he drops a Shows and Tells a Griselbrand and I match him with the mightiest one of my golgari thugs. As a last ditch effort I try to bounce his Griselbrand when he draws himself to 4 life, hoping to take the match in Thug beats but his spellpierce sadly ended my magic playing for the day.

5-0-4


Observations:
*I missed having the Tribes in every single match. Maybe its just my playstyle, but I feel lost without the recurring discard outlet that doubles as an impenetrable blocker.
*My sideboard was not where i wanted it to be. i was using a lot of anti-hate cards like chain and grudge, but I'm used to just playing through hate and don't bother siding for it. Without the tribes I kind of fumbled with managing my graveyard effectively.
*Leyline of the Void and Elesh Norn are sick though.

[Gui]

5-0-4

This notation actually states: "5 wins, 0 loses, 4 draws", but I believe it should be "5 wins, 4 loses, 0 draws", right? :tongue:

[ZebraSleeves]

This notation actually states: "5 wins, 0 loses, 4 draws", but I believe it should be "5 wins, 4 loses, 0 draws", right? :tongue:

Yes that is what I meant to write. I guess in my head I was thinking, "a win is the best so it goes first, then a draw is not as good as a win but not as bad as a loss so I'll put it in the middle, and a loss will be the number on the opposite side of the number of wins". Thanks for clearing that up, though. I will learn from my mistake.

[Gui]

Yes that is what I meant to write. I guess in my head I was thinking, "a win is the best so it goes first, then a draw is not as good as a win but not as bad as a loss so I'll put it in the middle, and a loss will be the number on the opposite side of the number of wins". Thanks for clearing that up, though. I will learn from my mistake.
Yeah, not a big deal, sory for bothering you with that...

Anyways, I will use LEDless list too, I've been doing some testing (although less than I'd like to), and I believe we should go with at least 2 Tireless Tribes. I've cut 2 Breakthoughts and 2 Tireless instead of removing all the perma discard. I also believe one of the strengths of LEDless is facing hate, so my config try to abuse the perma discards by using some Grudges from sb for a eventual fight against tormods/relics @ g3. I'll see if this can get me somewhere.

[Calado]

I've cut one breakthrough and one Ichorid instead of two breakthroughs.

[Izor]

@Zebra:

Nice tournament and nice report, thanks for sharing.

I'm glad to see that LEDless still performs reasonably well. I've always claimed that the printing of Lootings doesn't invalidate LEDless Dredge, so I'm glad to see it doing work for you.

I agree with you and Gui that we should run at least some number of Tireless Tribes in LEdless Dredge, because as you said, having permanent discard outlets is LEDless' biggest selling point and it makes post board games a lot easier.


What list did you run exactly? in my own list I've cut down Dread Return to 1 copy in the main deck, so I have room for 15 Lands as well as the full set of Breakthrouhs and a 3/3 split of Faithless Looting and Tireless Tribes. 3 Ichorids is more than enough imho and with more permanent discard outlets I think one can cut the 12th Dredger as well.

[dredgekid]

Thanks for the quick feedback!

About the 4th therapy maindeck, I think with this build's explosiveness, I can win fast enough without having to use therapy much. As for the 3rd ichorid, well same reason for not having the 4th therapy maindeck. I board the extra therapy and ichorids in matchups where I think I should win via beatdown than combo (with the chance of having to combo of course).

As for the sideboard, I've been thinking about firestorm too. I think it's good against maverick and delver. I'll test it out. For now, I have just been reading about its effectiveness in LED dredge sideboards.

This.

Faerie macabre is for reanimator and mirror match not to mention decks that run snapcaster mage. This was supposed to be Leyline of the Void but after some time I realized that I don't want it in my sideboard anymore. It's already a dead card if don't have it in my opening hand. Having to mulligan for it is not worth it. I'd rather mulligan for a keepable hand that could win.

And as for my previous post, I'll edit it. Thanks for the heads up! :)

I can agree with your logic on ichorid, but you are looking at therapy the wrong way. It does EVERYTHING! Its a win con, an enabler, and disruption. This card is the best card in the deck if used properly and should be an auto 4 of. Usually, if you can land 2 therapies you almost can't lose.

[Calado]

I can agree with your logic on ichorid, but you are looking at therapy the wrong way. It does EVERYTHING! Its a win con, an enabler, and disruption. This card is the best card in the deck if used properly and should be an auto 4 of. Usually, if you can land 2 therapies you almost can't lose.

I think that too, especially in LEDless where I get slow games often.
I love when the Therapy turn 2 grabs the counter, letting me to cast the draw spell and flashback Therapy right after. Or when they just don't have the counter and I can hit a strong card flashbacking it!

[Gui]

@Zebra:

Nice tournament and nice report, thanks for sharing.

I'm glad to see that LEDless still performs reasonably well. I've always claimed that the printing of Lootings doesn't invalidate LEDless Dredge, so I'm glad to see it doing work for you.

I agree with you and Gui that we should run at least some number of Tireless Tribes in LEdless Dredge, because as you said, having permanent discard outlets is LEDless' biggest selling point and it makes post board games a lot easier.


What list did you run exactly? in my own list I've cut down Dread Return to 1 copy in the main deck, so I have room for 15 Lands as well as the full set of Breakthrouhs and a 3/3 split of Faithless Looting and Tireless Tribes. 3 Ichorids is more than enough imho and with more permanent discard outlets I think one can cut the 12th Dredger as well.

Actually, Faithless Looting is more important than Breakthrough, but other than that, I could see myself playing your list as well. I don't agree that one can cut the 12th dredger, IMHO it's the highest impact card in the deck and one should always run 12 at least.

[jares]

I don't agree that one can cut the 12th dredger, IMHO it's the highest impact card in the deck and one should always run 12 at least.
I also consider the 12th Dredger to be a flex slot, but it's the last flex slot that I would ever use. In fact, I don't remember having used it at all! :tongue:

Now that I think about it, if I can find a way to include the 13th Dredger, I would. :laugh:

Cheers,
jares

[jares]

I'm glad to see that LEDless still performs reasonably well. I've always claimed that the printing of Lootings doesn't invalidate LEDless Dredge, so I'm glad to see it doing work for you.

I agree with you and Gui that we should run at least some number of Tireless Tribes in LEdless Dredge, because as you said, having permanent discard outlets is LEDless' biggest selling point and it makes post board games a lot easier.
I find it strange that I'm not missing the Tireless Tribes at all, especially given that my preferred LEDless configuration and play style is purposefully geared towards grinding games out (of course, the less grinding, the better).

I'll have to get reacquainted with my Tireless Tribes to revisit the testing that I did when Faithless Looting first came into the scene. I'm thinking that Tireless Tribe would at least be worth considering for some sideboard slots.

Cheers,
jares

[jares]

I love when the Therapy turn 2 grabs the counter, letting me to cast the draw spell and flashback Therapy right after. Or when they just don't have the counter and I can hit a strong card flashbacking it!
Hitting a blind Therapy has increasingly become my favorite play for this deck! :tongue:

Cheers,
jares

[Viridia]

I don't think it is any better then Flamekin Zealot, if not worse, considering that FKZ also gives al your zombies +1/+1 which usually results in a lethal blow.

[ZebraSleeves]

@Izor

I believe I used the following list at the tourney:

4 Golgari thug
4 Stinkweed imp
4 golgari grave troll
4 narcomoeba
4 putrid imp
3 ichorid

4 Bridges
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Therapy
4 faithless looting
2 dread return
1 darkblast

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadels

SB

4 Leyline of the Void
1 Elesh Norn
1 Angel of Depair
3 Firestorm
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Ancient Grudge

Changes I would make to the maindeck for next time would be -4 Lootings, +4 Tireless Tribes. In the Sideboard I would probably do -2 Chain of Vapor, -2 Ancient Grudge, +4 Street Wraith. This probably seem like an unusual choice, but let me list the reasons I want to have access to the Wraiths:

-They can come in on the draw to make the DDD plan more viable, if need be.
-The instant speed allows for more flexibility in managing your graveyard. Additionally it allows you to save dredger from being extracted or (to a lesser extent) oozed.
-Good as Breakthrough replacements in Grindy games because that don't cause you to over-commit but still offer you some acceleration and they can be pitched to Ichorid.

[K1w1]

Hey,
short question to you...i'm at a tourney at sunday and i think i just play the Painter sideboard just for fun but there is one thing:
How the hell did Jason Bulkowski board out?
HOW?

K1w1

[Que]

Hey,
short question to you...i'm at a tourney at sunday and i think i just play the Painter sideboard just for fun but there is one thing:
How the hell did Jason Bulkowski board out?
HOW?

K1w1

- 4x Troll
- 1x FKZ
- 1x Sun Titan
- 3x Breaktrough
- 4x Narcomoeba
- 2x Bridge

Not really sure on the Bridges at as the last 2 slots. Anyway since you want to maximize the use of Unmask you also want to keep your black card count up! Thats the idea

[Anusien]

Yeah, not a big deal, sory for bothering you with that...

Anyways, I will use LEDless list too, I've been doing some testing (although less than I'd like to), and I believe we should go with at least 2 Tireless Tribes. I've cut 2 Breakthoughts and 2 Tireless instead of removing all the perma discard. I also believe one of the strengths of LEDless is facing hate, so my config try to abuse the perma discards by using some Grudges from sb for a eventual fight against tormods/relics @ g3. I'll see if this can get me somewhere.
I would rather have Tribe than Grudge against Crypt and Relic game 2/3.

[Gui]

I would rather have Tribe than Grudge against Crypt and Relic game 2/3.
Hmmm.... I have 4 PImps and 2 Tribes MD right now. You suggest I should have 2 Tribes and 2 Grudges instead of 4 Grudges from SB, or even a 1 Tirbe 3 Grudges, maybe?
Could you further explain?

[Koby]

Hmmm.... I have 4 PImps and 2 Tribes MD right now. You suggest I should have 2 Tribes and 2 Grudges instead of 4 Grudges from SB, or even a 1 Tirbe 3 Grudges, maybe?
Could you further explain?

Against Crypt/Relic you have to coax them to break it. Having a consistent discard outlet allows you to force them to pop it eventually.

[K1w1]

- 4x Troll
- 1x FKZ
- 1x Sun Titan
- 3x Breaktrough
- 4x Narcomoeba
- 2x Bridge

Not really sure on the Bridges at as the last 2 slots. Anyway since you want to maximize the use of Unmask you also want to keep your black card count up! Thats the idea

Thx, i will test it

[joemauer]

I would rather have Tribe than Grudge against Crypt and Relic game 2/3.

I feel like a frozen caveman from the year 2007 who just got awakened in 2012.
What happened to the economy?!
A black president?!
Grudge is bad against tormod's crypt?!?!
What is going on?!?

[Anusien]

Hmmm.... I have 4 PImps and 2 Tribes MD right now. You suggest I should have 2 Tribes and 2 Grudges instead of 4 Grudges from SB, or even a 1 Tirbe 3 Grudges, maybe?
Could you further explain?
I am saying I would board in extra Tribes against Tormod's Crypt before I would board in Ancient Grudge.

I feel like a frozen caveman from the year 2007 who just got awakened in 2012. *
What happened to the economy?! *
A black president?!
Grudge is bad against tormod's crypt?!?!
What is going on?!?
You're definitely a caveman, then. Grudge was never good against Tormod's Crypt.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13767-Deck-Dredge&p=616374&viewfull=1#post616374How to beat Tormod's Crypt with Dredge

I've turned a corner on some things, like whether Tireless Tribe or Faithless Looting is better against the field, but against Tormod's Crypt, I'd rather have 4x of each before I run the first Ancient Grudge.

Ancient Grudge forces them to blow Crypt now. (This happens inevitably when dredging anyway). Even if you can get them to blow Crypt, you still need to Dredge again and overwhelm them. So you need a discard outlet AND a draw effect post-Crypt to get back into the game. Tireless Tribe provides a discard outlet to let you start dredging; if you can keep it on the board, each draw effect counters a Crypt.

[Final Fortune]

I am saying I would board in extra Tribes against Tormod's Crypt before I would board in Ancient Grudge.

You're definitely a caveman, then. Grudge was never good against Tormod's Crypt.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13767-Deck-Dredge&p=616374&viewfull=1#post616374How to beat Tormod's Crypt with Dredge

I've turned a corner on some things, like whether Tireless Tribe or Faithless Looting is better against the field, but against Tormod's Crypt, I'd rather have 4x of each before I run the first Ancient Grudge.

Ancient Grudge forces them to blow Crypt now. (This happens inevitably when dredging anyway). Even if you can get them to blow Crypt, you still need to Dredge again and overwhelm them. So you need a discard outlet AND a draw effect post-Crypt to get back into the game. Tireless Tribe provides a discard outlet to let you start dredging; if you can keep it on the board, each draw effect counters a Crypt.

It's not that Ancient Grudge is bad against Tormod's Crypt, it's that Ancient Grudge is only good against Tormod's Crypt and spending MD slots in order to address a hate card they may or may not draw isn't as good as spending MD slots in order to play around hate when they do draw it or advance your game plan when they don't draw it.

I feel like Tireless Tribe, and to a certain extent Chain of Vapor, are the kind of cards Dredge wants because they address the hate cards you need them to respectively while not being dead cards otherwise.

[joemauer]

You're definitely a caveman, then. Grudge was never good against Tormod's Crypt.


We must have different definitions of 'good against'.

Me: A card is good against another card if it can destroy opposing card with ease.

You: A card is good against another card if it can force your opponent to sacrifice opposing card and wipe out your graveyard(which is dredge's lifeline).

[NecroYawgmoth]

The thing is that Grudge still doesn't save your graveyard.

If you have like ~20 cards in your Graveyard, and they have a Crypt, you don't need that Grudge. They are forced to use the Crypt or lose. Than you need to rebuild your grave asap. This is were PImp and Tribe [and Studies]are better than Grudge.

Grudge is also IMO not only good against Crypt. It's better against Relic than it is against Crypt. Also, Grudge can kill Batterskulls and Jittes which is sometimes relevant. I see myself boarding Grudges more against Equipment than against hate.

[joemauer]

The thing is that Grudge still doesn't save your graveyard.

If you have like ~20 cards in your Graveyard, and they have a Crypt, you don't need that Grudge. They are forced to use the Crypt or lose. Than you need to rebuild your grave asap. This is were PImp and Tribe [and Studies]are better than Grudge.

Grudge is also IMO not only good against Crypt. It's better against Relic than it is against Crypt. Also, Grudge can kill Batterskulls and Jittes which is sometimes relevant. I see myself boarding Grudges more against Equipment than against hate.

I usually use Grudge before I build up my graveyard. Most players will drop crypt into play as soon as they have it in hand, even mutliples. So blowing up crypt prior is a common occurence.

Being able to dredge into grudge forces the opponent to blow up your yard at that moment and not when you get something saucy in there like DR, ichorid, or bridge.

With all that being said you are 100% right as to why grudge is so awesome. There is a reason it stayed in people's sideboard(as a two or three of) even when crypt/relic got replaced with surgical extraction.

[Anusien]

Grudge has some utility against Crypt. But because a Faithless Looting counters Crypt as easily as a Grudge, I'd rather just max out on the draw spells. That way they don't Crypt you and you topdeck Ancient Grudge instead of a discard outlet or a dredger or a draw spell.

[Michael Keller]

Grudge's utility goes beyond simply Relic and Crypt; it is far more multilateral against problematic equipment (Jitte, Batterskull, and Plating), in addition to creating a diffusion for opponents who would then have to play around it. The whole point of the card is to initiate interaction and reaction from your opponent by forcing them to activate said artifact, which is fine.

Dredge (depending on which variant you're gearing yourself towards) has a variety of ways rebounding through hate, in addition to having tools to fight it. The argument for or against something like Grudge is interchangeable because of how subjective it is. Additionally, Dredge is an incredibly situational archetype, so what might be good in one set of circumstances might not be the best in another.

[Isaac]

Went 1-2 playing today. I can do the blame game but you know I should realize to trust my gut. Round 1 I faced burn and won game 1 games two and three he had double cage to start off :(. Game three in that series I was on the play had rainbow land therapy narc and some irellivant cards. No dredgers and no drawl spells so I decited to mull. I dunno if that was the right play considering I could have cabaled named cage got two and brought him to five cards. However I would have had to rely on luck for the rest of the game. Round 2 I was against a white red aggro modern deck and game one blew him out of the watter game two my opening had was good I thought at one land two careful studys one loot two led's and one narc. I looted into a dredger and then proceeded to rip into my deck never finding anything but two ichorids. Game three was much like game 2 without as much as a powerful opener I dredge 3 trolls one thug and one stink and I got an active ichorid :(. Round 3 was against canadian thresh and I blew him away game 1 almost a turn 1 kill with break led looting I dredged 33 first turn. Second game proceeded along with the first he extracted my bridges I brought in a huge troll and had three ichorids mean mugging at him and he scoops. I saw one break and it makes me wonder if its really nessasary to have it. With 8 drawl 2 pitch 2 cards and coliseum im not convinced its nessasary.

[Vandalize]

Went 1-2 playing today. I can do the blame game but you know I should realize to trust my gut. Round 1 I faced burn and won game 1 games two and three he had double cage to start off :(. Game three in that series I was on the play had rainbow land therapy narc and some irellivant cards. No dredgers and no drawl spells so I decited to mull. I dunno if that was the right play considering I could have cabaled named cage got two and brought him to five cards. However I would have had to rely on luck for the rest of the game. Round 2 I was against a white red aggro modern deck and game one blew him out of the watter game two my opening had was good I thought at one land two careful studys one loot two led's and one narc. I looted into a dredger and then proceeded to rip into my deck never finding anything but two ichorids. Game three was much like game 2 without as much as a powerful opener I dredge 3 trolls one thug and one stink and I got an active ichorid :(. Round 3 was against canadian thresh and I blew him away game 1 almost a turn 1 kill with break led looting I dredged 33 first turn. Second game proceeded along with the first he extracted my bridges I brought in a huge troll and had three ichorids mean mugging at him and he scoops. I saw one break and it makes me wonder if its really nessasary to have it. With 8 drawl 2 pitch 2 cards and coliseum im not convinced its nessasary.

Took like 15 minutes to understand what you've written. Lol.

@thread

Finally I could get my hands in a playset of Lion's Eye Diamond again. My friend finally sold his Belcher.dec, and I could buy the LEDs.

I've been toying arround with a pretty standard list:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
2 Tarnished Citadel

3 Ichorid
3 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting

SB: 4 Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 Nether Shadow
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Dread Return
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Putrid Imp

Main deck seems fine, and sideboard is a little experimental. Nether Shadows have been awesome, and the DR package, as well. But everything else seemd unnecessary or useless. Any comments or criticism?

[Final Fortune]

You're better off cutting Faerie Macabre for Tireless Tribes IMO, it's not enough hate to matter.

[joemauer]

@vandalize: Tell me more about nether shadow. I assume it comes in versus surgical extraction. What have you been siding out for them? Have they certainly won you some games?

[4eak]

I can see 1-2 Nether Shadow, but 3-4 seems a bit much to me.

They seem good in any match where you can't rely upon having bridge in your graveyard. Surgical extraction, ofc, seems to be the most reliable avenue for preventing bridges from being active. Beyond Surgical Extraction (and the rare Extirpate), there aren't many matches where this is common though (a well-played Sligh deck with certain creatures would be only of the only example decks which have reliable ways to prevent bridges from being active -- getting Iona online is important in this matchup, making Nether Shadow exceptional).

Nether Shadow also seems not awful in any match that is going to be plain grindy, but often enough, I find that I grind until I've exhausted their resources (e.g. eating/answering/forcing 2 crypts), and then I try to explode out, which is not a place for Nether Shadow.


peace,
4eak

[jares]

I saw the list that had Bloodghasts, Dryad Arbor and Fetches - it was depressing. I really like thinking out of the box, but doing so just for the sake of doing so is even more counter-productive. Did I see that right? The list was running just 8 Dredgers? :eek:

I'm honestly not against any specific card that was in the list, as I try my best to keep an open mind about new ideas. What was mildly concerning, though, was the following statement, which might mislead others into believing claims that are made without sound reasoning:

"This is a weird design in that it goes against current Dredge theory, and I believe that is exactly what we should be doing, revising in the face of new information and new technology."

I hope that what was meant by that is that "we should be revising in the face of new information and new technology", not that we should all take on the "weird design that goes against current Dredge theory".

Kind Regards,
jares

[Final Fortune]

I saw the list that had Bloodghasts, Dryad Arbor and Fetches - it was depressing. I really like thinking out of the box, but doing so just for the sake of doing so is even more counter-productive. Did I see that right? The list was running just 8 Dredgers? :eek:

I'm honestly not against any specific card that was in the list, as I try my best to keep an open mind about new ideas. What was mildly concerning, though, was the following statement, which might mislead others into believing claims that are made without sound reasoning:

"This is a weird design in that it goes against current Dredge theory, and I believe that is exactly what we should be doing, revising in the face of new information and new technology."

I hope that what was meant by that is that "we should be revising in the face of new information and new technology", not that we should all take on the "weird design that goes against current Dredge theory".

Kind Regards,
jares

I don't think what you do with your MD matters that much, and that's the problem that leads so many Dredge players astray. Dredge is just so unfair vs. everything game 1 that you can win with almost whatever configuration you want to win with, it's really how your MD works with your SB vs. specific hate that matters more than anything else.

[Anusien]

I saw the list that had Bloodghasts, Dryad Arbor and Fetches - it was depressing. I really like thinking out of the box, but doing so just for the sake of doing so is even more counter-productive. Did I see that right? The list was running just 8 Dredgers? :eek:

I'm honestly not against any specific card that was in the list, as I try my best to keep an open mind about new ideas. What was mildly concerning, though, was the following statement, which might mislead others into believing claims that are made without sound reasoning:

"This is a weird design in that it goes against current Dredge theory, and I believe that is exactly what we should be doing, revising in the face of new information and new technology."

I hope that what was meant by that is that "we should be revising in the face of new information and new technology", not that we should all take on the "weird design that goes against current Dredge theory".

Kind Regards,
jares
I have concerns with that specific list, but there are some interesting and thought provoking ideas in the concept.

[jares]

I don't think what you do with your MD matters that much, and that's the problem that leads so many Dredge players astray. Dredge is just so unfair vs. everything game 1 that you can win with almost whatever configuration you want to win with, it's really how your MD works with your SB vs. specific hate that matters more than anything else.
I generally agree, and your statements put things into perspective.

Cheers,
jares

[Michael Keller]

I generally agree, and your statements put things into perspective.

Cheers,
jares

I think it's true to the extent based on the strength of the pilot who is capable of remembering triggers and stacking things appropriately. Mulligans are obviously also huge. I think the risks between balancing wins and losses derives a bit more from experience or lack there of.

Dredge might have an incredible game one win percentage, but that can be all for nothing if someone doesn't know what in God's name they're doing.

[chags]

I think it's true to the extent based on the strength of the pilot who is capable of remembering triggers and stacking things appropriately. Mulligans are obviously also huge. I think the risks between balancing wins and losses derives a bit more from experience or lack there of.

Dredge might have an incredible game one win percentage, but that can be all for nothing if someone doesn't know what in God's name they're doing.

+1 for truth value, being a long time dredge player I love playing against people who don't know what they are doing piloting this deck. I've been given so many free wins at scg events by dredge pilots who miss plays.

[rxavage]

I'm one of those players that when goldfishing or testing I never miss anything but when I play at a large tourney I get nervous/anxious for some reason and make alot of errors and miss Ichorid triggers most often. That's why I stopped playing dredge.

[jares]

I'm one of those players that when goldfishing or testing I never miss anything but when I play at a large tourney I get nervous/anxious for some reason and make alot of errors and miss Ichorid triggers most often. That's why I stopped playing dredge.
In my experience, it does take a lot of practice to have these functions be second nature. I've mentioned before that I talk a lot when playing Dredge, announcing each phase, each trigger, etc. That helps me remind myself (and my opponent) of the things that I need to be aware of.

Cheers,
jares

[HokusSchmokus]

I'll be actually playing dredge again on Saturday at BoM Legacy Main Event...Normal Quadlazer -4 Claims +4 Chains as I expect a lot of RUG, Maverick, Nic Fit and Reanimator´, also some people with some Pimped out Rogue-ish decks, or oldschool Decks, so I figured Chain is more like a catch-all. Wish me luck!

[jares]

I'll be actually playing dredge again on Saturday at BoM Legacy Main Event...Normal Quadlazer -4 Claims +4 Chains as I expect a lot of RUG, Maverick, Nic Fit and Reanimator´, also some people with some Pimped out Rogue-ish decks, or oldschool Decks, so I figured Chain is more like a catch-all. Wish me luck!
Looking forward to your results! :smile:

Cheers,
jares

[Tombstalker]

Greetings dredge players. I have a friend who is considering picking up this deck and I am helping him build a list. It has been a few years since I played dredge and some things have changed so I would like your help with a few simple questions:

In a smaller meta where you can expect certain decks all the time is LEDless the better choice due to the guarantee of certain hate? i.e. it seems like LED gets hated out easier unless im mistaken. From what ive seen lately dredge is now very consistant with the printing of looting so maybe LEDs combo element is superior in all respects? Budget is a consideration but if LED is outright better, especially in the face of hate then we will go this route.

I couldnt find the answer to this browsing this thread but has griselbrand been considered as a DR target? Seems powerful as a wincon and dredge enabler but maybe its just not fast enough or 'win more' idk. I suppose it would also have the benefit of being a weak form of hate against sneak and show due to the legend rule.

Is 3-4 ichorid still correct? Ive seen many lists that only run 2.

Ive read hollywoods primer which rocks btw, but it still leaves some doubt as to which variation is preferred/better (as it should be).

Thanks in advance.

[FullMetal824]

Hey there dredgers, Just wanted to share a nifty lil tourney report from the GP Minneapolis Legacy side event:

Deck:
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Colisseum
1 undiscovered paradise

4 golgari grave troll
4 stinkweed imp
2 golgari thug
3 ichorid
4 narcomoeba
4 putrid imp
1 flame-kin zealot

4 careful study
4 faithless looting
3 breakthrough
3 dread return
3 cabal therapy

4 lions eye diamond
4 bridge from below

SB:
1 Iona
1 Flayer of the Hatebound (awesome suprise card, btw)
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Elesh Norn
1 ancient grudge
1 ray of revelation
2 nature's claim
3 chain of vapor
4 Leyline of Sanctity (MVP)

I know this list was a little messy, but I felt the most comfortable with this as-is. Now that I don't have to worry about borrowing LED, I can finally mess around with it to see what sticks. Any way heres the tourney:

Round 1- Elf Aggro
This was my good friend that came along with me to the GP, and since he scrubbed the main tourney, he decided to play some legacy with me, and lo and behold he was paired against me R1. Anyway, he basically lawnmowed me G1, since he was pumping out elves faster then hell, and my dredges turned up absolutely no help
G2- Sided in Iona, Elesh Norn, and 4 Leylines since i know he runs tormod's crypt. I started with 1 leyline in play, but he was able to land 1 crypt on me after gripping my leyline, but his deck slowed down on him, as I was able to dredge with 2 careful studies and a break through, and I was able to return an elesh norn, which cleaned up his board
G3- No leyline off the bat, but he saw no crypt, so all was well. Game progressed much like the first, except my draw engine was on a coliseum. I was able to elesh and make my dudes very large, FTW

1-0

R2- vs Burn Deck 1
G1- He was whittling me down with some lava spikes and swings from a 1/1 figure of destiny, locked on 2 mountain. the turn after he tapped down I cast cabal therapy naming lightning bolt, and trashed 2, and left him with 2 fireblasts. Dredge got me turn 4 with 8 tokens, and a zealot to seal the deal
G2- I side in the Iona with 4 leyline, and land 1 from turn zero after 1 mulligan. He attempted to flame rift and price of progress me til I was down to 4 life, and then did the exact same thing to him G1

2-0
R3- RUG (no delver/mongoose)
G1- I ran my turn 1 and turn 2 putrid imps into FoW, and he wasted both my lands. I spent the rest of the game attempting to DDD, but to no avail, as he maintained control with goyfs and consecutive Mindsculptors
G2- I side in 2 natures claim and a flayer of the hatebound. His FoW once again met a turn 1 imp. Thankfully he didn't have answers to turn 2 breakthrough on 1, and a turn 3 breathrough on 0 to dredge up a huge abundance of creatures. I killed him with Flayer/Grave troll damage
G3- since I wanted to approach siding against his deck a little differently, I replacied the claims with chain of vapors, so he couldn't lay into me with goyf like game 1. Incidently the rest of his side showed its ugly face when he crypted a troll and 2 bridges away, and then crypted on turn 4 for 3 therapys and a looting. we maintain a stand still in later turns when i'm finally able to sort of stablize with 2 narcos facing a 3/4 goyf, although his clock was significantly faster. A pyroblast for a saving chain of vapor and a surgical extraction on my dread returns sealed the deal for him

2-1

R4- Burn Deck 2
I'm just gonna pass this one, since it turned out exactly like the first burn match, except for goblin guide giving me a winning coliseum game 2. Afterwards he told me he forgot to side in chaos warp and anarchy for my leylines. Oh well...

R5- ID
3-1-1

TOP4
R1- NO Bant
G1-A weak keep against something I had completely forgotten about, and I was staring down a Scavenging Ooze that slowly chomped away at my grave.
G2- I tried a grudge and 3 chain of vapors from my SB. I mulled to 6, and kept 1 land with a therapy, and no better support. I figured it I could possibly get to DDD a little bit faster keeping this mull. the therapy on Knight of the Reliquary nabbed one, but a natural order on a hierarch grabbed another, and then found a tabernacle (?!). My taxing on my hardcasted narco was pinning me for 1 each turn, and then a natural order on an arbor found progenitis.

All and all, this was a very positive experience. Thanks for reading! :D

[Calado]

Guys, I'm having trouble against Sneak Attack (my friend run a lot of counters and Pimp and Studies are always countered).
I usually win DDDing, trying to get 6 permanents on board and putting the Imp to block Emrakul (Progenitus is slower and easier to win).
What's the overall strategy against this deck? Is SBing Sudden Spoiling worth it?

[K1w1]

Went to a 41-man tourney and played the following list:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy

3 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Putrid Imp

3 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass


4 Leyline of the Void
3 Tarnished Citadel
1 Memory's Journey
1 Ray of Revelation
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Nature's Claim


Game 1 against EsperStoneBlade:

R1: Turn 2 kill
R2: He finds no hate and loses against two 11 Trolls :D

1-0

Game 2 against High Tide ( Holy shit!! )

R1: Have some Tokens and attack him all the time and he thinks a bit and decided to wish into extraction to my Ichorids. He has two life and draws his fourth land to go off...

R2: i dredge and dredge and have 22 cards left in my library...he said: "nice, i need storm 7... he played some stormspells and countered his own preordain twice...( i had a city of brass untapped ).. Memory's Journey wins!
btw, 3 times extracted..

R3: I have the following hand: land, land, land, coliseum, looting, looting, thug ... i kept this and play looting into land and thug and i discard the two thugs..he extracted them and saw my hand with lands and looting... he thought about it and extracted my looting. In the end i have five land in play ( two are coliseums ) and i drew a golgari grave troll ... HARDCAST!! And what happens? He extracted him ( zero creatures in my grave).. After some rounds i play therapy and the therapy got extracted after naming high tide... ( 4th extraction... ) End of turn he played wish into high tide... he drew and played two meditate and fizzled.. i have three turns now and i FINALLY got it... what a game...

2-0


Game 3 against Burn

R1: I luckily win with Flayer with one life left..
R2: I kept land, looting, looting, GGT, therapy, bridge, LED. He played Goblin guide and he reveals a gemstone mine. I drew a LED. Turn 2 kill, due to no Dread Returns in my grave :( otherwise turn 1 kill...

3-0

Game 4 against Sneak and Show

R1: Lost against Griselbrand + Emrakul
R2: I dredged some cards and he played Intuition end of turn into 3x Sneak Attack (wtf?).. I had 2 coliseums in play and a putrid imp in hand and he said, with show and tell i could play putrid imp. I won with this: Dredge 6: Moeba, Moeba, Moeba, Bridge, Dread Return, Flayer!!!

R3: Turn 2 kill

At the end, i said to him, that he had won with 3x Grafdigger's Cage with Intuition. I had no out for it and i need two cards to destroy it.

4-0

Game 5 against Miracle Whip

R1: Lost against CounterTop. He countered all my spells and i only had 1cc cards in hand. Top wins..
R2: He didn't find hate and said lets go game 3
R3: He removed my some dredgers, sworded my creatures and played CounterTop... After 20 minutes there is the first Entreat the Angels.. I said in response to top activation, memory's journey and he looked at the top 3 cards and found a snapcaster to counter it with counterbalance..

4-1

Game 6 against RUG Delver

R1: He had nothing and after naming a card with therapy: Game 2
R2: He mulled to 5 and got nothing.. I had double LED + looting/land/dredger. GG

5-1


2. out of 41

If you have any questions left or something just ask me..

K1w1

[Felidae]

Nice one Ben :). Do I know the High Tide player ( that's a story I'd like to bring up a couple of times to annoy him)?

Also shoutout to Brot_ohne_Kruste for his performance at the BoM Vintage event :D.

[paeng4983]

This is the 2nd time that I used this deck. The 1st was during the summer of 2008 during Borex tournament where I landed 9th. I participated in the WCQ's side event (20 May 2012) and I landed 9th again. My powers are weak with dredge. But anyway, here's what I can still recall.

RD1 Dredge
Both games, the deck did not do its job. While on his side, he kept on dredging after dredging. His Elesh sealed our fate. 0-2

RD 2 UR delver
I won both games. G1 Iona on RED, and G2 elesh with 8 zombie tokens. 2-0

RD 3 GW mavs
The guy had 4 ooze main deck. Nothing to do here sir. :-) I lose 0-2

RD 4 UR delver
I won both games. G1 dread returning ancestral chosen twice, gaining 10 life pts gave me enough distance for me to recover before Elesh finished him-off. G2, Iona on RED.

RD 5 RUG
G3, Iona on RED and Elesh with 2 zombie tokens and 2 ichorid were to much for his nimble and tarmo to handle. :-)

[Izor]

Wow, I feel literally insulted by that SCG Open finalist's skill.


Having the whole deck foiled out and making the finals of such a big tournament, all while having no idea how to play this deck properly. Not flashbacking multiple Cabal Therapies against the combo player, why would he?

He already punted horribly during the swiss, but lucked himself into 8th place because his opponent mulligans to 2 (a game the Dredge player almost still loses due to his unlimited playskill).


It is so insane. I'm impressed. I can't watch this any more. It hurts even more that not even the commentators see those mistakes and everything is once again the deck's fault.

[Tammit67]

Wow, I feel literally insulted by that SCG Open finalist's skill.


Having the whole deck foiled out and making the finals of such a big tournament, all while having no idea how to play this deck properly. Not flashbacking multiple Cabal Therapies against the combo player, why would he?

He already punted horribly during the swiss, but lucked himself into 8th place because his opponent mulligans to 2 (a game the Dredge player almost still loses due to his unlimited playskill).


It is so insane. I'm impressed. I can't watch this any more. It hurts even more that not even the commentators see those mistakes and everything is once again the deck's fault.

It saddens me the opens have become this. At least when they had the player rewards system up and running, you had a bunch of high skilled players showing up to them every weekend and you saw decent play.

[ScatmanX]

It is so insane. I'm impressed. I can't watch this any more. It hurts even more that not even the commentators see those mistakes and everything is once again the deck's fault.
This time the commentators did see lots of mistakes, but I guess they simply can't say stuff like "omg, that guy is soo bad, and got soo lucky!", so they simply say it once like "I wonder why hasn't he flashbacked that Therapy", and move on.

[jrw1985]

Forgive me if I'm entirely talking outta my butt, but isn't being terrible kinda an awesome strategy sometimes? Like, how can your opponent possibly make the right decision against you when you're playing batshit crazy? And with a deck like Dredge, where you can dredge yourself outta just about anything, making terrible plays doesn't even matter. You got your Bridge Ichorid engine going so who the fuck cares? The deck will just play itself. It doesn't matter that you're not playing optimally because your opponent has to play as though you were, and when he's playing a different game than you He's not playing optimally either.

[K1w1]

Nice one Ben :). Do I know the High Tide player ( that's a story I'd like to bring up a couple of times to annoy him)?

Also shoutout to Brot_ohne_Kruste for his performance at the BoM Vintage event :D.

Christian Heinecke was the player. Do it, it will be funny ;)

[Felidae]

Guess this will replace my other "drive you nuts story" I constantly bring up when I see him ( playing Landstill against his UW Ninjafish in Iserlohn and somehow got 3 Preachers into play, I should have made a photo of his face after the 1st one hit the board, priceless).

@jrw1985:
I hope this was a joke...

[jares]

@jrw1985:
I hope this was a joke...
That makes two of us...

Kind Regards,
jares

[Pltnmngl]

It's hard to be convinced by Gristlebrand. Is anyone taking him seriously?

[militiaman89]

well here is the thing, the therapy's would Not of mattered because it response to dread return he just draws cards with griselbrand and forces anyway then swing with griselbrand and emrakul next turn and wins he played it correctly its just the show and tell player could have won if he played the emrakul through sneak attack let it die ( removing brdiges) and then passed

[Vandalize]

well here is the thing, the therapy's would Not of mattered because it response to dread return he just draws cards with griselbrand and forces anyway then swing with griselbrand and emrakul next turn and wins he played it correctly its just the show and tell player could have won if he played the emrakul through sneak attack let it die ( removing brdiges) and then passed

Man, you really should spend some time improving your writing.

@thread SCG Dredge players always suck, you guys should know that by now. They always play like a moron, and the deck is just broken enough to give them some wins.

[Izor]

Forgive me if I'm entirely talking outta my butt, but isn't being terrible kinda an awesome strategy sometimes? Like, how can your opponent possibly make the right decision against you when you're playing batshit crazy? And with a deck like Dredge, where you can dredge yourself outta just about anything, making terrible plays doesn't even matter. You got your Bridge Ichorid engine going so who the fuck cares? The deck will just play itself. It doesn't matter that you're not playing optimally because your opponent has to play as though you were, and when he's playing a different game than you He's not playing optimally either.

Oh right. It's just some huge next level play to ignore 2-3 CT in your graveyard and lose because your opponent can easily combo off. I'm sorry that I didn't see that. I will start playing Burn and target myself only, maybe my opponent will punt so that I win the match.


@ militiaman:

You're right, but I was referring to some turns earlier. He had two CT much earlier that game and should just have therapied for Sneak Attack/Show and Tell (it's a Sneak Show deck after all). He'll have all the time in the world if he just does that.

[jrw1985]

@jrw1985:
I hope this was a joke...


That makes two of us...

Kind Regards,
jares


Oh right. It's just some huge next level play to ignore 2-3 CT in your graveyard and lose because your opponent can easily combo off. I'm sorry that I didn't see that. I will start playing Burn and target myself only, maybe my opponent will punt so that I win the match.

I wasn't joking, just pointing out that Magic is a game of incredible variance. We might pride ourselves on making the right play, but sometimes your deck can bash through the right plays an win regardless. It ain't pretty, but a win is a win.

[JDK]

I wasn't joking, just pointing out that Magic is a game of incredible variance. We might pride ourselves on making the right play, but sometimes your deck can bash through the right plays an win regardless. It ain't pretty, but a win is a win.

You are right in one point only: McDarby was obviously really confused by his opponent's plays.

Did he really Therapy for Misdirection before using Dread Return? What's the point of this?

[Izor]

You are right in one point only: McDarby was obviously really confused by his opponent's plays.

Did he really Therapy for Misdirection before using Dread Return? What's the point of this?

Obviously he was afraid of his opponent doing the same thing as last game again; misdirect DR to a different creature. He just didn't realize that CT is the game-winning spell against a combo deck already, which is just ridiculous seeing that he made the finals. I'm wondering if he'd also Therapy for Thoughtseize against TES decks, probably he would. I don't even want to know how many CTs were in his deck in the finals after sideboarding. I bet he left the 4th one in the side.

[Felidae]

I wasn't joking, just pointing out that Magic is a game of incredible variance. We might pride ourselves on making the right play, but sometimes your deck can bash through the right plays an win regardless. It ain't pretty, but a win is a win.

Sorry but there is a difference between " winning regardless of bad plays" and:
terrible plays doesn't even matter

Of course there will allways be games where you win, even if you made horribile mistakes, thus there will be games where you lose, even if you played perfect.

However playing bad in order to confuse your opponent sounds like the worst idea ever suggested in this thread.

[JDK]

Obviously he was afraid of his opponent doing the same thing as last game again; misdirect DR to a different creature.
So what? I'd take a bad creature anytime over no creature at all (if he has Force, which I'd therefor name anytime over Misdirection).

[HokusSchmokus]

So I'm back now from BoM and it was a blast. Too bad I didn't get any sleep Friday night, due to not having a hotel room. I could have made some better decisions with keeping/mulliganing and naming for Cabal Therapy. Went 2-3 drop as a result.

Round 1 I played against Enchantress.
G1 I keep the combohand and just put lethal on board first turn after he cast a Wild Growth.
G2 He surprises me with Troll Ascetic, some +2/+2 for every other Enchantments stuff and soon had a 19/18 Troll. I make a load of Zombies and get him to six until he tries to stabilize with Island Sanctuary. I draw cards until I draw a Putrid Imp, making Zombies with Ichorid to chump the Troll and attack him with PImp for the win.

Round 2 against UW Miracle
G1 He is on the play and has the almighty Island, go. I go off and he scoops in response to my first therapy.
I put him on UW Miracle because I think he doesn't know that the deck is superhyped in Europe right now(that's why he scooped, he thought his deck is rogue).
G2 I have a slow hand and start to DDD, but don't hit a lot of stuff. He then plays Terminus when I attack him with my only 2 Ichorids, next turn Entreat the Angels for 3 and I just lose.
G3 I realize I have two options to fight the deck best. First is making some Zombies and then attack with one Ichorid at a time so Terminus has less impact, or second, I can try to put lethal on the table on the first two turns and make sure he doesn't have a chance to set up Terminus. I go for the second plan and play LED+Looting first turn, dredging 12. I hit 3 Bridges, 3 Ichorids, 1 Moeba, 1 Therapy. That's where I make my mistake: I therapy him for Force, thinking that if he has somthing I will be able to hit another Therapy and take it away. I see a hand of Crypt and EE,fail to find another Therapy but all Bridges and Ichorids instead and terribly lose to Crypt.
BTW I got ultimated by Jace this game...

Round 3 against Spiral Tide(with candles)
G1 He plays Island, go, I cast a PImp. He plays another Island, tanks, taps two, tanks, untaps, taps,untaps, says go. I discard Therapy and Troll, hitting some Bridges and a Moeba and Therapy for Merchant Scroll...and I hit 3 of them!!!
He scoops soon after.
G2 I keep a hand with 3 lands, 2 Leylines of the Void and 2 Faithless Looting.
He forces my first Looting, second one finds a Study, Study finds Breakthrough and GGT
and I combo out with him having only a Candelabra in play.

Round 4 against UBr Ad Nauseam
My favourite match of the day.
G1 I have a quick start and get him to 3 quite quick. Due to my Therapies, he has only 2 cards in hand, PiF and Ponder+1 Brainstorm in Grave with LED, Petal, Three lands in play. He goes off and manages to actually kill me Oo
G2 I keep a hand without Leylines, but able to pull of LED+ Breakthrough turn 1.
I only have one dredger and me and my opponent both sigh in disbelief as I dredge the following cards: Leyline o the Void, Leyline of the Void, Gemstone Mine, Leyline of the Void, City of Brass, Leyline of the Void. I draw 3 cards and he shakes his head as I discard Narcomoeba, Coliseum, Narcomoeba.
I try to battle away anyway, getting him to 3 again, but without having any Therapies, I just lose horribly to PiF Infernal Chain.

Round 5 against UW Miracle
G1 I keep a good hand and try to stick double LED but he Forces twice. I say go. He goes Tundra-> Top. I play land, Looting, Discard GGT, Thug, go. He does some stuff, I dredge into Ichorids, but he has double STP by now. At some time he resolved Terminus and Entreat the Angels for 5 in the same turn and I scoop.
G2 I try to check he hand with first turn Therapy for Extraction and see Brainstorm double Terminus, Force, Jace, 2 Lands. He handily draws Top and I don't get in the game at any point due to Terminus and again Entreat the Angels.

I dropped at this point because I was out of competition for top 64, it was ultra-hot and I was tired as hell. Spent the rest of the day smoking weed, playing some magic and hanging out with some friends.
It was a great trip, but the UW Miracle deck is something I am a bit worried about(seeing that K1w1 also lost)

[Izor]

So what? I'd take a bad creature anytime over no creature at all (if he has Force, which I'd therefor name anytime over Misdirection).

I was being sarcastic, sorry. Of course you're right, that's what I wanted to say. Therapying for Misdirection in order to keep your favorite DR target is utterly terrible.

A 3-year-old would understand that one should Therapy for Sneak or Show against a Sneak and Show deck.


@ Brot:

Cool story. I'm still a sad panda for not makimg it to the BoM myself this year :/

[jares]

You are right in one point only: McDarby was obviously really confused by his opponent's plays.

Did he really Therapy for Misdirection before using Dread Return? What's the point of this?
Confusion technique! Make the wrong plays to cause your opponent to make some wrong plays of his own! :tongue:

Cheers,
jares

[jares]

It was a great trip, but the UW Miracle deck is something I am a bit worried about(seeing that K1w1 also lost)
I'm actually also interested in the development of the Miracle Whip archetype. Besides, the deck name is so much fun, I'd play it myself just for kicks. :tongue:

Cheers,
jares

[HokusSchmokus]

@Brot
Who was responsible for Erik"The Maggot" Hegeman?
:D:D:D
I couldn't stop laughing.(I still am)

[NecroYawgmoth]

@Brot
Who was responsible for Erik"The Maggot" Hegeman?
:D:D:D
I couldn't stop laughing.(I still am)

Read his blog in Mtg-Forum. Very funny. :laugh:

[HokusSchmokus]

I'd like to point out that even with Matignon being a total pain in my ear, the BoM Vintage final was a pleasure to watch after all that SCG Dredging. Also, the list was perfection.

[Einherjer]

Hey guys im pretty new to Dredge and would like to present to you my list:

//Dredger
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
//Buisness
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Putrid Imp
//Dread Return
3 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
//Lands
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass

Still I am not set on the sideboard yet at all! Could somebody give me a decent one for an open meta?
+ Criticism is appreciated on my list.

Thank you and Greetings

[K1w1]

I'm actually also interested in the development of the Miracle Whip archetype. Besides, the deck name is so much fun, I'd play it myself just for kicks. :tongue:

Cheers,
jares

It's a nice deck, but it is an easy matchup normally.
They have nothing. I think they only can win, if they counter all your spells until they get CounterTop online.

K1w1

[NecroYawgmoth]

It's a nice deck, but it is an easy matchup normally.
They have nothing. I think they only can win, if they counter all your spells until they get CounterTop online.

K1w1

Also reccur only 1 Ichorid each turn, or none at all if you have 4+ Zombies. Makes Terminus very weak. They also have a very "slow" fundamental turn so it's nP to DDD here.

[joemauer]

Still I am not set on the sideboard yet at all! Could somebody give me a decent one for an open meta?
+ Criticism is appreciated on my list.

Thank you and Greetings

Your decklist is pretty standard, the only change I would advise is try to squeeze in one more land if you could.

Here is a standard sideboard:

Elesh Norn x1
Angel of Despair x1
Iona, Shield of Emeria x1
Ancient Grudge x3
Chain of Vapor x4
Nature's Claim x4
Memory's Journey x1

[HokusSchmokus]

To run both Chains AND Claims makes me wonder how this is considered standard Oo

[joemauer]

To run both Chains AND Claims makes me wonder how this is considered standard Oo

Makes you ready for anything!

[HokusSchmokus]

Oh, so better waste 4 slots on a card that does what the other does 99% of the time?

[joemauer]

Oh, so better waste 4 slots on a card that does what the other does 99% of the time?

Oh, you are looking at them incorrectly.

Chain of Vapor is better against Reanimator and Maverick. Reanimator for the obvious. It is strong against Maverick because they use Ooze, Knight, Wheel of Sun and Moon, and/or Tormod's Crypt.

Nature's Claim is stronger versus weirdness like Mud, Enchantress, and counter top thopters. MUD seems to be making a comeback.

Also, you can use chain along side claim. Nature's Claim number 5 and 6.

I am not saying it is the best sideboard ever, but it is a pretty standard one. It is a good starting point. You can trim up on the Chains and/or Claims to fit in more Meta Specific hate like Leyline of the Void/Sanctity.

Furthermore, it is a really good idea for a new player to try both and see which works best for them. People that have played the deck for a while seem to favor one or the other. Starting with both isn't a bad idea.

[Einherjer]

What I am not sure with is the 3 BT / 2 PT split - how do the experienced players feel about it?

[HokusSchmokus]

You normally want a playset of Breakthrough on the play imo.

@Chain vs Claim: Still, most of the time they have the same role. 8 slots for the same role is too much imo.

[joemauer]

What I am not sure with is the 3 BT / 2 PT split - how do the experienced players feel about it?

I think three breakthrough is perfect. It is generally bad in multiples and we have enough cards that draw cards with looting, careful study, and Cephalid Coliseum. Also, breakthrough is usually the first card to get sided out.

I would personally play more Putrid Imps, but it would involve cutting something else: 4th thug, dread return & flayer, a careful study, a cabal therapy, or an ichorid. It kind of depends on what you want your deck to do.

@HokusSchmokus: What would you advise for a generic/standard sideboard for a new player?

[HokusSchmokus]

There is no generic Sideboard. It all depends on your maindeck and what the metagame will look like. But again, I feel like I have different views than most on this thread.
By that I mean that for example, the best sideboard is more important than the maindeck. BUT to incorperate your sideboard cards in your maindeck the main has to be build well in order to avoid performing less stellar in g2/3.
For that to achieve, I believe to run the quadlaser list is the best. But even then, there is no generic sideboard.

[lordofthepit]

Probably time for me to ask after sitting befuddled for months and not finding anything in the older thread. What does "quadlaser" refer to?

[Michael Keller]

Chain of Vapor isn't stopping Griselbrand in Reanimator, which is the most likely Entomb target - even before Elesh Norn. Nature's Claim permanently stops Leyline of the Void, Wheel, Animate Dead, Sneak Attack, etc. and forces the player with a Crypt or Relic out to use it immediately. Chain of Vapor only delays the inevitable except against maybe Leyline. It doesn't stop Scavenging Ooze because all an opponent needs is an open mana to do some damage - only to replay it the next turn with potentially one more mana to add to the hurt.

Not very good.

Also, I am still loving Ancient Grudge. No one is running Cage and in that respect it seems incredibly good right now in the match-ups that warrant its inclusion.

Sneak and Show is also rising right now, so consider changing those boards. Just something to think about.

[HokusSchmokus]

Probably time for me to ask after sitting befuddled for months and not finding anything in the older thread. What does "quadlaser" refer to?

Check the opening post. Basicly the german way of playing dredge:P
Well, it's at least very popular around here. MD is 4 off everything that is not a DR(which isn't played at all), running 12 lands.

Also, Hollywood has it right. Though I doubt Reanimator will be using Griselbrand much, Chain does almost nothing in this matchup. Even against Elesh and the like, it does less than just using actual hate cards like Leyline. Against all other relevant matchups, Claim is better.

[Calado]

I don't know, but what happened to Charbelcher combo? Any card banned or is just not competitive anymore due to stronger decks in the format? It was so funny...

@Thread:
Against Reanimator Leyline of the Void and Faerie Macabre are better, since Chain of Vapor is easily counterable.
Against Maverick we can use Firestorm (still polemic), but Chain isn't stopping the damage as it should, so I'm still trying to rush DR into Iona when Ooze isn't active.

I'm still confused about the strategy against Sneak and Show... any help?

[HokusSchmokus]

I don't know, but what happened to Charbelcher combo? Any card banned or is just not competitive anymore due to stronger decks in the format? It was so funny...

@Thread:
Against Reanimator Leyline of the Void and Faerie Macabre are better, since Chain of Vapor is easily counterable.
Against Maverick we can use Firestorm (still polemic), but Chain isn't stopping the damage as it should, so I'm still trying to rush DR into Iona when Ooze isn't active.

I'm still confused about the strategy against Sneak and Show... any help?

Charbelcher just never was good, and continues to be bad.Also, why are you mentioning the deck?Oo

Against Sneak Show, what is your problem?Therapy for Sneak or Show(you are running 4 Therapies, are you not?)and laugh at the turn 2 Emrakul as you can just race that.:)

If you are in a meta that has like 90% Sneak Show you could still run Pithing Needles and Sharuum as DR target I guess:P

[NecroYawgmoth]

...or be as lucky as I am and always have the Angel of Despair when they S&T their Emrakul. =P

[jares]

It's a nice deck, but it is an easy matchup normally.
They have nothing. I think they only can win, if they counter all your spells until they get CounterTop online.

K1w1
Yeah, that's also what I was thinking when I saw the general lists. It probably would affect the rest of the meta somewhat, but it won't really matter much to Dredge (well, anything that doesn't take out our graveyard really doesn't matter too much anyway).

Cheers,
jares

[joemauer]

I don't know, but what happened to Charbelcher combo? Any card banned or is just not competitive anymore due to stronger decks in the format? It was so funny...


I miss playing 16 bit nintendo games. Those were fun too.

[Calado]

Against Sneak Show, what is your problem?Therapy for Sneak or Show(you are running 4 Therapies, are you not?)and laugh at the turn 2 Emrakul as you can just race that.:)

Free counters, that's my problem. I play LEDless and I'm used to DDD to not having my discard outlet countered, so I can't outrace a turn 2/3 Emrakul.
Ofc when he counters the Study I can Therapy right after, but I'm not getting lucky against my friend.
Maybe my problem is only that I'm a newbie. Ty for the tips.

[Shimster]

[...] and I'm used to DDD to not having my discard outlet countered, so I can't outrace a turn 2/3 Emrakul.
imo, you cannot DDD against decks with a solid clock, even if they've got (free) protection. Their fundamental turn is like 3 - 4 (depending on the build), as is yours if you rely on DDD.

With Careful Study and Faithless Looting, is playing 4 Breakthrough still the right number (at least in the maindeck)?

[HokusSchmokus]

Depends on what your md looks like, but more often then not it is. Breakthrough in your sb is an utter waste of space imo

[Gui]

What people fail to realise when analysing the DDD plan is that you won't DDD forever. Once you have your stuff on graveyard, you start trying to cast spells. If one of them go through the opposing protection, all the best. If not, you are still in the game.

This is obviously not the right call against combo, and obviously a weak choice against decks with no counterspells, but against tempo-like decks, it's really worth it.

On the other hand, against Show and Tell, we can't afford to wait many turns, such a consistent combo with counter protection, it's part of our nightmare matches whenever they can stall us long enough. To fight this kind of strategy, we need to be extremely redundant, cutting every single piece of crap from the deck that isn't a Discard, Draw, Manasource or Dredger. At least this is my point of view.

[Calado]

Speaking about the sneak show matchup, I just noticed that was the finals at the SCG Orlando, both decks running Griselbrand:
www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/finals_mark_eilers_vs_david_mc.html

It looks like I'll end buying a set of LEDs... Discarding and dredging turn 1 is so good (even in manaless I have the wraith to accelerate).