[Deck] Dredge

[Parcher]

Just my two cents on Griselbrand, cross-posted from an idiotic foray into MTGSalvation a few weeks ago:

I've been using Griselbrand since he was spoiled, though not in the main deck. I've yet to lose a game when I Returned him, and I've yet to Dredge a single card using his ability. Drawing seven is enough. His power isn't in the life gain, nor the extra Dredge for his ability. His power is in putting life gain, Dredge, and by far the most important, the ability to draw SB cards post-board.

His lifegain wins against any Aggro without Plow. And if they can't immediately access a Plow post-Therapy, it's still irrelevant. So that's one slot in your SB(say, Ancestor's Chosen). His ability to Dredge is a second slot(say, Sphinx). Then you have his ability to draw cards. First, to draw to your cards that affect the board, like Moat or Jitte. And everyone is running a set of Chain or Claim that GB can draw you into easily. That's another DR target slot he replaces(say, Terastodon). Against Combo he can actually draw you into Therapies so that you can cast them before flashing them back. This Sunday I therapied a Doomsday player 5 times on turn two. It's common to have a land open to do so, and if you have an LED, you can even get three black mana in response to the draw, which you can even cast a Thug or the like afterwards. Or just drop the land you drew off GB That's another slot(say, Iona, or Hypnotist). Lastly, he can draw you into Firestorm. Which can not only burn out all of their creatures if you have a full grip after drawing with Griselbrand, it can also take out your opponent. And even without Griselbrand, Firestorm is worth is for the currently rare Aggro/Tribal deck, and against Hate Bears like Thalia and Ooze. Firestorm is actually ridiculous against RUG right now as well, since it kills their biggest threat to Dredge(Delver), discards through countermagic, and plays around Crypt, which most play now over Surgical since they have eschewed Snapcaster. That's another slot(say, Elesh Norn), which should easily free up your SB to add said Firestorms.

Griselbrand is in most situations, individually worse than all of the Dread Return targets that I referred to. The benefit of Griselbrand is the extra slots you get in having a target that can perform all of the needed actions. Flayer is a loss of 2-3 slots maindeck at a minimum. And does nothing without a second Dread Return unless you also pass the turn. And most decks are running one Flayer, and no target to facilitate getting to him. This is to say nothing of the additional slots you gain in your SB by condensing your DR package into two cards(I run two Griselbrand in the side). Especially when you consider that you will still need to bring in whatever anti-hate you normally need regardless of your DR target. Griselbrand also only needs to wait a half turn to gain life against anything but straight Burn. Otherwise, he at the very least will blank an attack step. His vunerability is easily mitigated by discard, and just off of the top of my head, RUG, Dredge, Dream Halls, Sneak and Show, U/R Delver, Burn, Storm, and pretty much all Tribal and Stompy decks have no effective way to deal with him. RUG getting their Delver blocked, you gaining 7, and them having to still double burn him out doesn't really count.

*Currently, I am trying the 1 GB, 1 FKZ configuration in anticipation of the uptick in Sneak and Show, and Storm. It's probably not needed. But I hate to pass the turn against SnT since they can topdeck a lot of outs if they have already landed Sneak Attack.

[HammafistRoob]

I see your point parcher, but I suggest you try the 2nd grislebrand over FKZ. Against SnT if they do stick a sneak attack just dredge out your deck. It doesnt matter if you pass the turn while you have eight 2/2s along with grislebrand in play an a few ichorids in your yard(given your at a decent life total still). Even a topdecked emrakul wont save them.

[Infectious]

I certainly agree. You can even add LED to the list of cards that are "so much more powerful". The thing about Putrid Imp, though, is that it was never meant to be "powerful". While all the cards that we mentioned serve as the "star players" in the deck, I like to think of Putrid Imp as the "glue guy", the role player that rarely gets the credit for doing the little things and never complains about the dirty work. As I've expressed quite a few times in the past, my appreciation of the card stems from the fact that it's able to facilitate several of the deck's functions, while at the same time increasing the deck's resilience and reliability.

While Putrid Imp will never be a piece that will be absolutely necessary for Dredge, but you'll be hard-pressed to look for an alternative for something that makes the other cards in the deck much better.

Cheers,
jares

Entomb used to be a card that would see play on occasion back in the day. If we're talking about potential replacements for Putrid Imp that carry a ton of versatility I think it warrants discussion.

You can use it like a single use discard spell, instead of pitching a dredger it just goes and gets one to put in your yard. The advantage is that you don't need a dredger in your hand to discard, you can get the specific dredger you want, but the disadvantage is it reduces the number of dredgers left in your deck to hit.

You can use it to find a DR or DR target, or a Bridger or Therapy or Ichorid, but doesn't help you discard then if you happened to draw them (fairly minor drawback considering the amount of discard already available in the deck).

If you've got an LED (or a grip of land) it can also function as a draw spell by putting a looting in your yard to flashback.

If you've boarded in cards that do something in your grave (ancient grudge, memory journey, etc etc) entomb can let you go find them instead of having to rely on drawing it. But again p.imp would let you pitch it if you did manage to draw it and wanted it in the yard (much lower probability of having both the card you wanted to get into the yard and pimp in your hand, and even then if you had entomb in the p.imp slot you could still go get another copy of the card as long as you didn't have all of them in your hand).

It can also be played at instant speed, so you can wait until the end of their turn before making your decision of what you want to do.

But those advantages come at the cost of being able to beat down, being a body to sacrifice to therapy or DR (and maybe trigger bridge in the process), being fuel for ichorid, and being more situational against t.crypt (you could get something and force them to blow it, vs having a reliable p.imp to power through).

If you're trying to make a more combo oriented deck, and have cut down on ichorid and therapy (areas where p.imp adds value) it might be a card to consider.

-Infectious

[joemauer]

While burn is an easy matchup most of the time it can become a serious headache if your forced to mulligan to less than 6. They have multiple ways to deal with bridge and they have a decent clock to boot.

While burn may be an easy matchup it doesnt mean that you autowin. With grislebrand though this is as close to an autowin matchup you can hope for.
(this is NOT an arguement to run grislebrand, its meerly an added bonus of running him)

Im about 100% sure grislebrand wont become grislebanned until a certain archetype exploits him well enough. He hasnt shown enough results to be banned in two weeks. My advice is to buy them now before they become 30/40 dollar cards. After wizards makes their money on a card is when they ban it, they wait for the price to skyrocket first.

I was saying burn is indeed an autowin. I can only lose to burn if my deck decides to poop on me, and if my deck is pooping on me then I could be losing to any deck including some U/W delver deck from standard.

Whether or not Grislebrand will be Grislebanned, I don't know. If Show and Tell gets the axe then Grislebrand will become Grislebargainbindollarcard. People anticipating one of the two to get banned is the only reason both have not skyrocketed in value.

[Final Fortune]

I certainly agree. You can even add LED to the list of cards that are "so much more powerful". The thing about Putrid Imp, though, is that it was never meant to be "powerful". While all the cards that we mentioned serve as the "star players" in the deck, I like to think of Putrid Imp as the "glue guy", the role player that rarely gets the credit for doing the little things and never complains about the dirty work. As I've expressed quite a few times in the past, my appreciation of the card stems from the fact that it's able to facilitate several of the deck's functions, while at the same time increasing the deck's resilience and reliability.

While Putrid Imp will never be a piece that will be absolutely necessary for Dredge, but you'll be hard-pressed to look for an alternative for something that makes the other cards in the deck much better.

Cheers,
jares

The good/bad about Putrid Imp is that even tho' it's the worst enabler in Dredge, it's still the best worst enabler we can play in order to add to the consistency of the deck. If I ever cut Putrid Imp, it'll be because I'm adding lands or dredgers or something else entirely to increase the consistency of the deck and not because I'm adding Dread Returns and targets just for more impressive kill sequences. If anything, I think you've discovered that you should be SBing Putrid Imp out in certain match ups more than you were before, especially if you're on the draw for game 2.

One card I've considered in the Putrip Imp slot is Hapless Researcher for being the closest approximation to Careful Study I could find and blue instead of black for the added color consistency, but I got irritated by the card being unable to establish Threshold for Cephalid Coliseum without Golgari Grave Troll. That may be moot tho', because while it's no Careful Study the decrease on the dependence of a gold land in favor of any land made it feel like a pretty consistent, albeit underwhelming enabler that triggered Bridge tokens.

If you don't like Putrid Imp, I think Hapless Researcher deserves some playtesting.

[Calado]

And Pimp can block Vendilion, delver, Griselbrand, Emrakul, etc.

[Moondancerbb]

And Pimp can block Vendilion, delver, Griselbrand, Emrakul, etc.

Not after turn one.

[Tacosnape]

I'm a fan of Griselbrand/FKZ. I like being able to just straight up win turn one if I see my Griselbrand.

Does anyone have a suggestion, in a 1 FKZ/1 Griselbrand package, how not to lose to UW Miracles managing a turn two Top/Terminus combo?

[KobeBryan]

I'm a fan of Griselbrand/FKZ. I like being able to just straight up win turn one if I see my Griselbrand.

Does anyone have a suggestion, in a 1 FKZ/1 Griselbrand package, how not to lose to UW Miracles managing a turn two Top/Terminus combo?

Is grisel really that effective?

I mean by the time you get your grisel in the GY and able to dredge return, you pretty much won the game already.

[Lans89]

Hi all,

I'm also fond of Griselbrand together with FKZ ;)! I currently run this list:

Maindeck
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Golgari Thug

4x Nacrcomoeba
3x Ichorid
3x Putrid Imp
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
1x Griselbrand

4x Bridge from Below
2x Dread Return
3x Cabal Therapy

4x Lion’s Eye Diamond
4x Faithless Looting
4x Careful Study
2x Breaktrough

4x Cephalid Coliseum
4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass
2x Undiscovered Paradise

Sideboard
1x Dread Return
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Flayer of the Hatebound
1x Ichorid
1x Cabal Therapy
2x Chain of Vapor
3x Nature’s Claim
3x Firestorm
1x Ancient Grudge

I made it to top 8 (4-1-1) in a 44 man GPT last weekend, but after I won game one in the quarterfinals I had to mulligan to four cards in both game 2 and 3 and lost =( … Sucks when the deck shits on you after you made it that far! A friend of mine won the 3 byes for the GP in Ghent, so his joy compensated my painfull loss :P…

I’m very happy with the list and don’t think that it needs any improvements (although it’s sad that I can’t find any space for a 4th Therapy main board). However, I found it hard to sideboard because the list is already so tight! I now believe that I should cut Lion’s Eye Diamond whenever I board in Nature’s Claim, Firestorm or Chain of Vapor. When I do so I often side out 2x Faithless Looting as well (and often switch from DR strategy), where I would otherwise side out Breakthrough most often. And sometimes I shave some cards (putrid imp for example)… Still it’s hard!

Could you guys tell me how you would board against most matchups where you can expect some graveyard hate in the form of artifacts/leyline? Or maybe give some common examples.. Thanks =)!

[jares]

Quite a few people have shared their experiences on how Dredge "Shits" or "Poops" on them on their opening hand, causing them to lose even against the auto-win match-ups. From what I've observed, it happens fairly often.

It's worth noting, though, that the frequency of this occurrence happens by design, and not simply because of bad luck (though, of course, no deck is immune to bad draws). It will be healthy to keep in mind that the more enablers we cut (Lands, Draw, Discard, Dredger) in favor of combo pieces that can't help our opening hand (DR, DR-Targets, Excess Free Creatures), the greater the probability of "Pooping" on the opening hand. In same way, if our threat density (Free Creatures, DR) isn't sufficient, we're also likely to "poop" on our dredges (though the rate of dredging is so much more forgiving when compared to just drawing 7 cards to start the game).

Finding the balance between these two competing functions is difficult (as there really is no science for it), but I believe that it's doable. As for me, because dredging is the much more forgiving function with a higher threshold for "error", I try my best to maximize my chances of getting a good hand (while maintaining the deck's threat density).

In other words, when you're deck poops, shits, or craps on you, the composition of your deck should get the blame - bad luck can't take all the credit. :tongue:

Kind Regards,
jares

[Michael Keller]

I still think it's a mistake to cut Putrid Imp entirely from the deck. He provides a controlled discard outlet in addition to feeding Ichorids, which is actually quite important as the game progresses.

Also, I'm really loving Ashen Ghoul and Memory's Journey together. Both have been incredibly effective against Extraction. Against Sneak and Show, I'm considering reformatting my board to deal with the rise of it, but I'm still trying to decide what will work best.

[TraxDaMax]

Quite a few people have shared their experiences on how Dredge "Shits" or "Poops" on them on their opening hand, causing them to lose even against the auto-win match-ups. From what I've observed, it happens fairly often.

It's worth noting, though, that the frequency of this occurrence happens by design, and not simply because of bad luck (though, of course, no deck is immune to bad draws). It will be healthy to keep in mind that the more enablers we cut (Lands, Draw, Discard, Dredger) in favor of combo pieces that can't help our opening hand (DR, DR-Targets, Excess Free Creatures), the greater the probability of "Pooping" on the opening hand. In same way, if our threat density (Free Creatures, DR) isn't sufficient, we're also likely to "poop" on our dredges (though the rate of dredging is so much more forgiving when compared to just drawing 7 cards to start the game).

Finding the balance between these two competing functions is difficult (as there really is no science for it), but I believe that it's doable. As for me, because dredging is the much more forgiving function with a higher threshold for "error", I try my best to maximize my chances of getting a good hand (while maintaining the deck's threat density).

In other words, when you're deck poops, shits, or craps on you, the composition of your deck should get the blame - bad luck can't take all the credit. :tongue:

Kind Regards,
jares


I don't really think any dredge player can deny that the deck can go bouncing off in the wrong direction once in a while. While it has the explosive "here I am nothing you can do about it" starts, it also has the " this was supposed to be good but you know what I don't feel like cheating today so lets give your opponent a chance to recover" starts. :p

Latest example.
I remember playing at GP Malmo in a 8 man single elimination tourny. Took my dredge deck for a run(which is a pretty standard FKZ build), and opened with a hand that in my opinion was pretty strong game 1.

LED, LED, Breakthrough, City of Brass, Faithless Looting, Golgari Grave Troll, Golgari Thug.

My opponent had played Island-> Aether Vial previous turn, so I put him on merfolk.

I go Land -> LED.
LED gets forced. I play another LED, which resolves (obviously playing around daze now)
Then I play my Breakthrough, crack LED in response for 3 Red, dredge half(or more) of my deck in the few next minutes only to hit 0 Narcomoebas and 2 Bridges.
I do hit an Ichorid, Flame-Kin Zealot and a dread return.

Next turn he drops a Jitte (!) and passes the turn with vial on 1.

I get back the ichorid, flip the next 6 and still don't hit a narcomoeba or another bridge.
So I have an ichorid in play, 2 Bridges, 2 cabal therapy and DR in GY. He has a vial on 1 and a jitte, but right now the vial on 1 concerns me most as he can pop out a cursecatcher if he has one, which can block my ichorid, or be sacced to a cabal therapy blowing up my bridges. So I pass the turn, hoping to get 2 zombie tokens and hoping I can get a nice dredge + DR next turn. EOT he throws in the cursecatcher as I assumed..

Next turn he equips it and attacks with it, I don't block (not sure if this was right, but I assumed him having to use jitte counters on his own men to blow up my bridges would be better) so I go to 18 and ofcourse he shoots his own little blue dude sending my bridges off to oblivion.

My next turn in upkeep he pings my ichorid with his other counter? I finally find a narcomoeba. I bash for 4 with the zombies, and consider making a 6/6 Troll. Note that this troll will be the only thing on the field for me if I do so, since I don't have any bridges left. I leave the troll sitting in my graveyard as my best dredger hoping my opponent doesn't toss another 2 drop with his vial and that I can get one more try at dredging another bridge. EOT he tosses in Silvergill Adept which gets equipped and well I assume you can realize I'm not going to win this game anymore.

Game 2 was simular, only this involved a turn 1 relic, me not being able to resolve any spells, and him getting Jitte hooked up again. Hooray.


I hope this story didn't take too much of your time, but this is in my opinion pretty much how the deck can poop on you. Or should I have risked my 2 bridges faster in game 1? I just never thought he would be able to play Jitte, Force, Vial, lands and still be able to keep gas coming in the form of little fish. And if I had hit a moeba in the first 30+ cards I sent to my GY that first turn, I should have just won right there on the spot.
Waiting longer to go off with that hand doesn't seem like the right thing to me either, and especially hadn't been in this case. Only thing I could hope for after dredging as if my deck only consists of sorceries and lands, is that my opponent wouldn't have too many creatures after all those other spells, but he did.



To get back to more deck choices, I have been testing FKZ and Griselbrand main deck, and untill now it's not really amazing me to be honest. Odd though, I kind of thought he would be nuts in this deck.

[jares]

I hope this story didn't take too much of your time, but this is in my opinion pretty much how the deck can poop on you. Or should I have risked my 2 bridges faster in game 1? I just never thought he would be able to play Jitte, Force, Vial, lands and still be able to keep gas coming in the form of little fish. And if I had hit a moeba in the first 30+ cards I sent to my GY that first turn, I should have just won right there on the spot.
Waiting longer to go off with that hand doesn't seem like the right thing to me either, and especially hadn't been in this case. Only thing I could hope for after dredging as if my deck only consists of sorceries and lands, is that my opponent wouldn't have too many creatures after all those other spells, but he did.

Without going through the details of "how" and "why", I sincerely believe that the game you described was winnable, which is why I wouldn't consider this to be a scenario where the deck "pooped". Playing through adversity (countermagic, graveyard hate, hate bears, etc.) is difficult, but it is far from impossible - in fact, we should always expect to go through a lot of turbulence when playing Dredge, because, after all, we would otherwise just win without even trying. :tongue:

To illustrate, these are the scenarios that I would consider to be some of the deck's more popular "pooping moments" (for lack of a better term):

Opening Hand:

Hand without a Land, Dredger, Draw Spell, Discard Outlet (worst case)
Hand without a Land (or even LED)
Hand without a Dredger and Draw Spell

Dredging:

Coming up empty while Chain Dredging (happens more often when we cut dredgers)
Ichorid without a Black Creature (happens more often when we cut Black Creatures like Golgari Thug and Putrid Imp)
Not enough Cabal Therapy in the graveyard (happens more often when we don't run the full set)


I hope that helps.

Kind Regards,
jares

[HokusSchmokus]

Remember that the likelyhood of being pooped on by the deck increases in the comboish lists

[jares]

Remember that the likelyhood of being pooped on by the deck increases in the comboish lists
That is true, at least for the "pooping" in the opening hand. Unfortunately, the combo parts for Dredge are unable to contribute to the opening hand, and the inclusion of these packages increases the likelihood that you'll be pooped-on. DR targets are even worse because, as much as you would want them in the graveyard, these targets can't really do anything by themselves - they would need a solid investment in a Dread Return (which also presents its own layers of dependencies).

I guess that's why it's called "combo" (combination) - these dependencies are part of what defines comboliciousness. :tongue:

Cheers,
jares

[Alex_UNLIMITED]

The Gerry's sideboard is not clear for me.

Sideboard:
1 Blazing Archon
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
2 Nether Shadow
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Firestorm
3 Nature's Claim
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Dread Return
1 Tarnished Citadel

We can't know the g2 hate, then, the first side-in will be:
nether + nature + dread + flayer + tarnished = 8 cards?! :eyebrow:

And vs maverik or bant:
nether + nature + chain + tarnished + firestorm = 11 cards? :confused:

Can you explain me the sideboarding in the LED version, please? :smile:

[joemauer]

This is my deck pooping on me:

Dredging nothing but draw spells and lands for three turns, then being forced to draw a card which ends up being another dredger.

[Calado]

Well, the deck doesn't necessarily need to be full aggro. There are always cards that we don't need to draw, like narcomoeba and bridge. It's just about pondering the chances of being screwed by drawing one Griselbrand versus winning by dredging it.
"if you're able to DR, you'll win anyway" isn't true. Most of times we're able to DR turn 2, and it doesn't put sufficient tokens into play to win next turn because there's not enough bridges, so compensating this by shutting down a color, dredging the entire deck, giving haste to the tokens or being a 11/11 creature is beneficial.
I agree that we mustn't cut dredgers and lands for this. But if trading other cards like Ichorid and some draw spell ruins the deck that much, there's nothing to discuss here until a new stronger card appears to cover this faults (I thought that Griselbrand was like this).

[jares]

"if you're able to DR, you'll win anyway" isn't true.
In my experience, it is - most of the time, at least. :tongue:

Cheers,
jares

[TraxDaMax]

Without going through the details of "how" and "why", I sincerely believe that the game you described was winnable, which is why I wouldn't consider this to be a scenario where the deck "pooped". Playing through adversity (countermagic, graveyard hate, hate bears, etc.) is difficult, but it is far from impossible - in fact, we should always expect to go through a lot of turbulence when playing Dredge, because, after all, we would otherwise just win without even trying. :tongue:

To illustrate, these are the scenarios that I would consider to be some of the deck's more popular "pooping moments" (for lack of a better term):

Opening Hand:

Hand without a Land, Dredger, Draw Spell, Discard Outlet (worst case)
Hand without a Land (or even LED)
Hand without a Dredger and Draw Spell

Dredging:

Coming up empty while Chain Dredging (happens more often when we cut dredgers)
Ichorid without a Black Creature (happens more often when we cut Black Creatures like Golgari Thug and Putrid Imp)
Not enough Cabal Therapy in the graveyard (happens more often when we don't run the full set)


I hope that helps.

Kind Regards,
jares

I actually consider dredging 30+ cards and not hitting a single Narcomoeba the deck pooping on you. It's like casting Ad Nauseum and not seeing a single mana source before you hit 1 life total coming from 15-20 life. :D

[HokusSchmokus]

...there's nothing to discuss here until a new stronger card appears to cover this faults (I thought that Griselbrand was like this). Calling stupid repetitive discussion for a card in m13 now. Also, next month is entomb month if I am not mistaken...my prophecies have come true two times already so I look forward to it:D

But seriously, I don't think Griselbrand is the way to go. If you can use it to your profit everything is good and I don't really know what else we can discuss with this card.

he Gerry's sideboard is not clear for me.

Sideboard:
1 Blazing Archon
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
2 Nether Shadow
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Firestorm
3 Nature's Claim
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Dread Return
1 Tarnished Citadel

We can't know the g2 hate, then, the first side-in will be:
nether + nature + dread + flayer + tarnished = 8 cards?!

And vs maverik or bant:
nether + nature + chain + tarnished + firestorm = 11 cards?

Can you explain me the sideboarding in the LED version, please?
Using this sideboard I belive Dread Return and Flayer only come in against Reanimator(if you are afraid of Archon) and Enchantress-style decks. Moat+Tabernacle effects probably, too.
Chains/Claims are for permanent based hate, Firestorm for aggro.
Nether Shadow is there to fight extraction basicly.
But you are right, it's not unlikely for a Dredge player to be boarding in 8+cards (I board 11-12 cards in the mirror:P)
The boarding is hard to discribe. Basicly, using Gerry's board I'd board out Breakthrough most often/LED if I rely on Firestorm.
So vs Maverick, +1 Citadel, +3 Firestorm, +3 Chain (possible Claim), so that would be 9 cards. I don't know Gerry's main by heart, but something along the lines of -x Breakthrough-x LED, -1 Ichorid or such seems legit.

Also guys, just a thing that popped up during testing: If you are on the play Game 3 against Maverick(which is the usual case for me), it worked wonders to just board out some stuff again and race the shit out of them.(this even worked quite well with the Quadlazer list, so should work wonders for combo variants)

@ Jares(my third edit...maybe you'll learn from me:P)/@anyone
How often do you have Ichorids with no fodder in your yard? I normally only have this when I return 2-3 Ichorids 2-3 turns in a row Oo and that is not a flaw of the deck anymore:P
Also be sure to know useful tricks with Coliseum and Ichorid(if you don't know already, if you know how a stack works you can probably figure out, if not: a little riddle for you all to solve:))

[Izor]

Also be sure to know useful tricks with Coliseum and Ichorid(if you don't know already, if you know how a stack works you can probably figure out, if not: a little riddle for you all to solve:))

Meh, don't tell me about it. I had to explain this to my opponents and noone knew what I was talking about. And it also works the other way; Lately in the mirror, my opponent screamed at me because I didn't let him recur the Ichorids he Dredged into with a Coliseum activation during his upkeep.

By the way, the same trick works with Ashen Ghoul and Nether Shadow as well. Only that the card text on Shadow is even more confusing to people than Ichorid. The Beta Nether Shadow wants you to pay its casting cost if you want to bring it back during your upkeep...

[Tombstalker]

Has conflagrate been discussed before? Cant find any reference in this new thread but it seems noteworthy as a flashback firestorm for one R more, not teeg friendly though.

Regarding sneaky show- blazing archon is/seems ok, IF you draw it or IF you can DR it first. Likewise griselbrand could help give us a chance to legend rule theirs. I would like to submit pithing needle as a SB option. Needle is broad, can be hardcast easily and ultimately against sneak and show gets put into play off SNT naming sneak attack by APNAP dodging counterspells.
I would say chain of vapor/spot removal might of been ok except now griselbrand laughs at these types of answers while drawing into spaghetti + counters FTW. Alternately I suppose prison effects like propaganda or even elephant grass (think castable tempo play) might be decent. Downside is show and tell decks pack tons of countermagic so anything we have to cast will likely be stopped.
Any better ideas here?

[HokusSchmokus]

IF you dedicate slots for Sneak Show, you might as well run Sharuum to complement the needles. But honestly- What makes you fear this matchup this much? They can hardly interact with your plan, pre- and postboard. The most powerful thing they can reliably do is turn 2 Show and Tell Emrakul. That is not nearly enough if you are on the play, likely not enough on the draw.

[Izor]

IF you dedicate slots for Sneak Show, you might as well run Sharuum to complement the needles. But honestly- What makes you fear this matchup this much? They can hardly interact with your plan, pre- and postboard. The most powerful thing they can reliably do is turn 2 Show and Tell Emrakul. That is not nearly enough if you are on the play, likely not enough on the draw.

Well, it's not that easy actually. They usually go off on turn two, so you can expect them to attack for the win on turn 3. Our own critical turn is pretty much turn two as well, and if we don't have FKZ or Flayer, we'll have to wait a turn until we can win as well. So technically speaking, they're almost as fast as we are. True, we have Therapies, but they also have at least 8 counters and some Brainstorms to hide things. And on top of that, 4 Leylines or at least 4 other pieces of graveyard hate seems to be standard in those decks, so it actually becomes even harder after sideboarding.

Blazing Archon seems to be a decent choice for this matchup. I know that you don't play DR at all in your list, so you lack that option entirely. I dare to say that this could turn out to be a disadvantage in a metagame with lots of Griselbrands.

[HokusSchmokus]

Still don't get it. AFAIK they run Force and Daze. Force slows them down usually, as it always does. Daze isn't a counterspell. You can play around Daze even Preboard. If they combo turn 2, they have Show and Tell. So most likely, Emrakul attacks turn 3. So what? Produce enough permanents and you are good. Emrakul CREATES critical mass for dredge.

Also, Leylines aren't hate. I lost to Show and Tell decks before, but I never ever in my career of competitive Dredging(not counting manaless) lost a match against a Leyline of the Void, except for the mirror. Why do you fear this card? Leylines are not a good card in most decks. More like a lazy-man's choice. If Sneak Show started packing serious hate, there'd be a problem.

[Tombstalker]

Some versions use daze I suppose, others run misdirection for 6-7 free counter spells plus spell pierce and maybe flusterstorm. I think the new incarnations are better with Griselbrand. T2-3 SNT drop sneak attack into Griselbrand is hard to beat when they can draw into counter magic and more hasty legends.

[HokusSchmokus]

With misdirection they are even slower.I don't see the problem

[jares]

I actually consider dredging 30+ cards and not hitting a single Narcomoeba the deck pooping on you. It's like casting Ad Nauseum and not seeing a single mana source before you hit 1 life total coming from 15-20 life. :D
Yeah, that situation really sucks, given that it's very unlikely for that to happen (only a 3.02% chance!), and there's really nothing that we can do to prepare for that situation other than run the full set of Narcomoebas.

The only other thing that I can think of is making an effort to shuffle really really well. After every game, you would find that our cards are heavily stacked - especially the ones that matter (like Narcomoeba). I've experienced these situations myself, and ever since I started playing competitively, I made it a point to start every game with a deck that's as randomized as possible (we've actually discussed this a bit in the old thread). Personally, I try to do a 15x4 Pile Shuffle at least twice (with a Riffle Shuffle in between), and Riffle Shuffle again at least twice (or as many times as I can until the opponent is ready).

I hope that helps.

Cheers,
jares

[Que]

Also, Leylines aren't hate. I lost to Show and Tell decks before, but I never ever in my career of competitive Dredging(not counting manaless) lost a match against a Leyline of the Void, except for the mirror. Why do you fear this card? Leylines are not a good card in most decks. More like a lazy-man's choice.

I don't even think I can believe that. :/

[joemauer]

Did some random testing with dredge today.
Some things I learned:

Putrid Imp is awesome. He is some kind of Swiss Army Knife who makes playing around hate so much easier. I will never cut this puppy.

Nether Shadow/Ashen Ghoul sideboard. I am still not sure which is better, leaning towards Ashen Ghoul as having extra lands happens more in game 2 & 3. I like both though. Blindly siding them in game 2 is always good unless you are fighting Leyline of the Void. People have been doing more of the split 2 extractions & 2 relic/tormod's. So just beefing up your threat density with a couple ancient grudges is a solid plan.

Dread Return into Monster never won me games that I would have lost. Granted it was a small sample set, but I don't think Dread Return + monsters are the way to go currently. I still need to test the Show and Tell match some more though. A quickly Dread Returned Monster might be pivotal in this match.

[Izor]

Still don't get it. AFAIK they run Force and Daze. Force slows them down usually, as it always does. Daze isn't a counterspell. You can play around Daze even Preboard. If they combo turn 2, they have Show and Tell. So most likely, Emrakul attacks turn 3. So what? Produce enough permanents and you are good. Emrakul CREATES critical mass for dredge.

Also, Leylines aren't hate. I lost to Show and Tell decks before, but I never ever in my career of competitive Dredging(not counting manaless) lost a match against a Leyline of the Void, except for the mirror. Why do you fear this card? Leylines are not a good card in most decks. More like a lazy-man's choice. If Sneak Show started packing serious hate, there'd be a problem.


I don't even think I can believe that. :/

Agree with Que.

First of all, the average win turn of the quadlaser list is about 4.0 for the goldfish, so you can usually assume that you have an army that survives Emmy's Annihilator on turn 3 on average. You can not possibly assume that you magane this each and every time. The quadlaser list mulligans relatively often and SneakShow is very consistent with 8 cantrips and Intuitions. On top of that, Griselbrand is often much worse for us due to the Lifelink and its ability to drop more Monsters next turn. Thirdly, Sheak Attack is much much worse for us that Show and Tell, because it gets rid of our Bridges. And there you go tryinhg to race Emrakul's Annihilator without having access to all your BfB.

Also, you're claiming that you never lost a game against Leyline? So whenever someone started with Leyline in play against you, it did never occur to you that:

- you hadn't boarded your anti hate, because you really can't know for sure what hate people are packing
- you did board in stuff, but didn't see it
- you did board it in, and even found it, but the rest of your hand couldn't get there?
- your opponent had the counter magic to stop your Leyline removal
- your opponent opened on two Leylines and you only found 1 piece of removal?

(all assuming that you weren't able to go aggro on hardcast dudes and beat them with them, which certainly happens, but you can hardly count on it).


None of those happened to you? To me they all happened, more than once. You're either extremely lucky or you don't face as many Leylines as I do. The point is that leyline is the single worst hate card there is for Dredge. Prove me wrong, but as long as there's a Leyline in play, you can't do anything. Against Crypt/Relic/Spellbomb, Extraction or Extirpate I've won a hundred times without preparing for it.

What am I not seeing?

[HokusSchmokus]

Izor: Those situations did happen. Isaid I never lost a MATCH to it, except in the mirror.
There is no way for me to prove that, I know.
Still: Leyline enforces bad mulligan decisions. Last week at the GPT I won a game against double Leyline with Putrid Imp Beatdown. Also you can win a lot of games because the opponent mulligans to 5 or sth. and you opnen with a therapy and force a mulligan to two.
Believe me or not, but there is a reason I don't consider Leyline a big threat.

[Calado]

The point is that leyline is the single worst hate card there is for Dredge. Prove me wrong, but as long as there's a Leyline in play, you can't do anything. Against Crypt/Relic/Spellbomb, Extraction or Extirpate I've won a hundred times without preparing for it.
Agreed. Even when we're able to destroy it, it still delay us one turn by having to cast claim instead of a discard outlet (unless you start with looting and LED, which is unlikely when mulliganing for removal).
Agreed with the sneak and show matchup being tough, it's my archenemy by these days. It's fine when they cast show and tell and I have the opportunity to put stinkweed imp AND have enough permanents to sac AND enough bridges to get back. Surviving two Emrakul's attacks is not easy if it's early.

[HokusSchmokus]

Agreed. Even when we're able to destroy it, it still delay us one turn by having to cast claim instead of a discard outlet (unless you start with looting and LED, which is unlikely when mulliganing for removal).
Agreed with the sneak and show matchup being tough, it's my archenemy by these days. It's fine when they cast show and tell and I have the opportunity to put stinkweed imp AND have enough permanents to sac AND enough bridges to get back. Surviving two Emrakul's attacks is not easy if it's early.

What is happening? If this is true, why do a lot of Sneak Show pilots I know claim Ichorid is one of their worst matchups? How can a matchup me bad for both sides?^^

[Julian23]

So let's look at it from the other side:
What are the strongest cards that hose Dredge? Everywhere I see HS post, I only read about bad sb cards against Dredge.

[HokusSchmokus]

In my opionion the best single hate cards are Extractions or a way to recur multiple Crypts. If you know what you are doing , 1 Relic or Crypt CAN win the game, but people need to realize that one Crypt activation is normally not enough unless you can back it up. Other than that, the worst thing for me that can happen is if the opponent has several different pieces of hate, that cannot be handled by the same card.
Diverse hate (creature+enchantment+land+artifact, like Maverick can do) is really hard to beat.
My personal record in matches against Maverick with Ooze, Wheel, maybe artifact hate,E-Tutor and Bog is abysmal, for example. Canadian decks that run Crypt+Extraction+Bolt is a pain in the ass, too.
Basicly, what I am saying is that if the hate is diverse enough and people know how to play it, it gets really hard for Dredge to win.
Sure, 4 Leylines and Turn 2 Grisel+Emmy is enough, but that is not somehing that you can expect to happen every game.

Edit:It also depends on what you are planning to do. Koby's Sneak Show list with Cages,for example. He stated that his plan against Ichorid and Reanimator is to delay them for 2-3 Turns. For that, Cage is perfect.

[Calado]

Koby's Sneak Show list with Cages,for example. He stated that his plan against Ichorid and Reanimator is to delay them for 2-3 Turns. For that, Cage is perfect.

That's what came in mind against dredge. Leyline delay as much as cage, with the bonus of being free and allowing them to ponder turn 1. I mean, if you were playing against dredge, why would you prefer running Cage over Leyline?
Against Cage we can discard turn 1, and then claim and dredge on turn 2. Against Leyline, we can only do this if we have permanent discard outlet to bin the dredger after the claim in maintenance phase (one more point for Pimp when dealing with hate).
There's something I'm missing?

[HokusSchmokus]

I think I am misunderstood. Now ofc Leylines effect is powerful,if not perfect against dredge. This is also the reasons why a lot if decks play it (without thinking about it). The reason I consider it bad is that it basocly forces you to mulligan hands without it brcause of the otherwise neigh uncastability of it.
The free aspect is not good enough in most decks imo.

[Holly]

Something little different from the Leyline vs Cage Discussion:
Tommorow I'm going to my second tournament I participate with Dredge and I can't settle for my Sideboard.
There're going to be about 40-50 persons, the Meta consists off (at least the last few times) a lot of Canadian & UW-Control, wether Blade Control or Counterbalance (Probably a lot of Miracle-Control now), also a good portion of Maverick & RU-Delver.
They will be prepared for Dredge, last time there were 3 Dredge-Players and additional 2-3 Reanimators.

My Maindeck looks at the moment like this:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough

4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichoird
3 Cabal Therapy

4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp

2 Putrid Imp
3 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound


Typical Flayer List, but with 2 Imps instead of the 9th and 10th Gold-Lands. I'm playing with Flayer mostly because I like the Combo-Kill as a second approach, but also because I hate loosing vs Ensnaring Bridge, Moat, Elephant Grass etc (there is/are usually 1-2 Enchantress).

I'm not quite sure on the Imps vs Lands, but so far I never had any problems, sometimes I even got flooded..

For my Sideboard I'm thorn, I want to 2 more Goldlands, complete the playsets of Ichorids, Therapies and Imps. I need some graveyard-hate (probably Leyline), something against Leylines, 3 Natures Claim & 1 Chain of Vapor? Maybe 1 Ancient Grudge? Also I want to try Memory's Journey & 2 Ashen Ghouls versus Extractions. Oh and of course Firestorms and Iona..

Right now I'm thinking of this:

4 Leyline of the Void
1 Ichorid
1 Cabal Therapy
3 Natures Claim
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Tarnished Citadel
// Or maybe 1 Citadel, 1 Paradise?
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Memory's Journey
1 Ancient Grudge


But maybe I dont need the Leylines that much, they'd come in in the mirror and vs Reanimator, and I had to mulligan for it, which I kinda hate.. 2 (3?) Memory's Journey could buy me enough time vs Reanimator? In this case I could remove the 4 Leylines, add 2 or 3 Journeys, remove the Ichorid and add 2 Ashen Ghouls?

[jares]

Typical Flayer List, but with 2 Imps instead of the 9th and 10th Gold-Lands.
I would strongly suggest that you reconsider taking out Gold Lands in favor of Putrid Imps. As much as Dredge is one of the decks that has minimal dependence on lands, its main dependency is still hinged on lands - more importantly, Gold Lands.

To be honest, I don't really want to take out the Putrid Imps either, but if I were to choose between the two, I'd prefer to use the cards that most of my other cards depend on.

I hope that helps.

Kind Regards,
jares

[Calado]

I had a doubt about building (yeah, the basis), when calculating the chances of having Land+Draw+Discard+Dredger:
As discard, is easy to consider Pimp, Tribe, Looting and Study (discards for turn 1).
LED works with Looting and Coliseum.
Breakthrough can be considered, since it eliminates the draw spells?
And Cabal Therapy, do you use it as discard outlet turn 1?

[K1w1]

Short tourney report.

I played the Quadlaser with the new SB:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Ashen Ghoul
1 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Tarnished Citadel

First of all, i drunk too much last night and only got 2h sleep.

Game 1 against Goblins:
R1: Turn 3 kill with enough Zombies after dredging through my deck.
R2: He had Tormod's Crypt i had Nature's Claim, but he was faster and won.
R3: He took mulligans into three cards and he had a Bojuka Bog after my Breakthrough without any Moebas to create Zombies..

0-1

Game 2 against Affinity:
R1: Turn 3 kill with enough Zombies after dredging through my deck.
R2: I kept a bad hand, due to mulligan to five and he killed me with double Arcbound Ravager and Cranial Plating.
R3: He played Ancient Tomb and played Springleef Drum, Ornithopter and Grafdigger's Cage, i played Nature's Claim end of turn and won with Zombies and multiple therapies.

1-1

Game 3 against BUG Control:
R1: Dredged some cards and killed him with Zombies + Ichorids.
R2: He extracted Golgari Grave-Troll, Stinkweed Imp, Ichorid and he won with Jace + Wasteland that i couldn't return Ashen Ghoul.
R3: He extracted Narcomoeba, Bridge from Below, Cabal Therapy and Ichorids but i killed him with Ashen Ghouls

2-1

Game 4 against Canadian:
R1: Lost against Double Mongoose, due to mulligan to five again ( i think i never had a hand which i kept without mulligan..)
R2: I won, because he didn't find hate and no instants or sorceries for his double delver.
R3: Again no hate and i kept a hand with multiple studies and i won.

3-1

I was 7th and i had the chance to ID me into Top 8, but i wanted a price, so i played this.

Game 5 against Sneak Attack:
R1: I therapied his win options and won with multiple zombies.
R2: He kept after mulligan to six and i play land into therapy naming surgical extraction. Double hit. He had four lands and i just won.

4-1

Was 2. out of 28 now

Top 8:

Mirror:
R1: I was a turn faster and we went in game 2.
R2: I kept a non-leyline, non-nature's claim hand, because i had three lands, two lootings, a putrid imp. I thought, i will find a Nature's claim.
R3: Mulled to five with Leyline, but i had nothing to win this and he had land, claim, leyline, looting.


Ashen Ghouls -> Really nice to have!

K1w1

[jares]

I had a doubt about building (yeah, the basis), when calculating the chances of having Land+Draw+Discard+Dredger:
As discard, is easy to consider Pimp, Tribe, Looting and Study (discards for turn 1).
LED works with Looting and Coliseum.
Breakthrough can be considered, since it eliminates the draw spells?
And Cabal Therapy, do you use it as discard outlet turn 1?
LED can also be used as a discard outlet in response to a draw spell.

Breakthrough can only reliably function as a discard outlet (assuming that you would want to keep another card in hand) when X > 0.

As for Cabal Therapy, I wouldn't really want to use it as a discard outlet unless I'm desperate.

In other words, in terms of what you would want to consider for the slots for discard outlets, Putrid Imp, Tireless Tribe, Careful Study, and Faithless Looting are pretty much it; LED is probably next in line.

I hope that helps.

Cheers,
jares

[jares]

Ashen Ghouls -> Really nice to have!
A few inquiries:

What is the minimum number of Ashen Ghouls that you would suggest?
How many lands do you add to the deck when siding-in Ashen Ghouls,
if any?
What do you usually side out when siding-in Ashen Ghouls++?

Cheers,
jares

[K1w1]

A few inquiries:

What is the minimum number of Ashen Ghouls that you would suggest?
How many lands do you add to the deck when siding-in Ashen Ghouls,
if any?
What do you usually side out when siding-in Ashen Ghouls++?

Cheers,
jares

1) 3
2) 3
3) 4 LED + 1 Breakthrough +1 Ichorid

K1w1

[Holly]

Short report if anyone is interested:
We were 52 players.
At least:
4x Dredge
5x Enchantress (!)
4x Sneak Show
4x Miracle-Stuff (UW)
..wow..

I played the list I posted above, without the Imps, therefore Goldland Nr. 9 and 10 and..well more about it below.
Anyway:

Match 1 vs Scepter-Chant:
Game 1: My dredges sucked and he stabilizes at 3 life 1 Round before I would have killed him with Scepter + Chant.
Game 2: I'm too fast.
Game 3: Like Game 2 but even faster !

Match 2 vs Stoneblade
Game 1: He's dead on my 2. turn.
Game 2: I made a huge mistake, running frontal into Relic of Progentius and lose, which I deserved.
Game 3: He topdecks 1 of his 2 Relics before I could have killed him (all Bridges, 3 Ichorids..but no Narcomoeba =/ ). I cant recover and got beaten down by an Geist.

Match 3 vs Enchantress
Game 1: I'm to fast, hes dead on turn 3, the wheel couldn't help him anymore since my graveyard was allready full.
Game 2: He starts with an Tutor but not for Wheel of Sun and Moon instead for the Green enchantment "cards in graveyard can't be the target of spells" Oo. I dont know why and asked him after I killed him next round, well he didnt knew either.

Match 4 vs Aggro-Loam
Game 1: He starts.. I kept a really greed hand but thought I could try it.. 2 Looting, 2 LED, 1 Breakthrough, 2 Dredger, I knew what he was playing and since he didnt do anything I waited for my second turn in which I drew a Land. Probably I should have started in my 1. turn.
Game 2: First turn Ooze and when I managed to drop 2 Trolls in my Graveyard (he only had 1 green source and was tapped out) he extracted them =/.
Game 3: I was to fast.

Match 5 vs Dredge
Game 1 he starts, in his second turn he had 1 Land & 1 Narcomoeba in play, 3 Bridges, 1 Dread Return, 1 Therapy and some creatures (including Troll) in his graveyard but passed.
I, who started with t1 Therapy, hardcasted my Thug and removed all his bridges. In my opinion he made a mistake with not casting the Therapy for at least 3 Zombies, he knew what I was playing so..
Anyway, he couldn't recover and was to slow.
Game 2: He mulls to 5, I start with Leyline, he does nothing.

Match 6 vs Canadian (a friend of mine)
We're both 4:1 at the moment, but I was downpaired twice, so I scooped and we split the price (he made the 4th place).

Back to 2 Lands vs Imps.
Everytime I drew them I wished for an Putrid Imp instead, maybe I was just unlucky, but often I had at the end of the game 2-3 Lands in play and more in hand (or discarded). In one game I even hardcasted 2 Ichorids !

Therefore I really liked my Sideboard, consisting off:
4x Leyline
2x Ashen Ghoul
2x Memory's Journey
1x Iona
3x Nature's Claim
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Cabal Therapy

[jares]

1) 3
2) 3
3) 4 LED + 1 Breakthrough +1 Ichorid

K1w1
Wouldn't 1-2 Ashen Ghouls be sufficient?

Kind Regards,
jares

[K1w1]

Nice Holly.

@ jares: The thing is, you play the Ashen Ghouls in the 2x Memory's Journey and 1x Grudge slots. If you just play 1-2 Ashen Ghouls you still lose to Swords to Plowshares. I think 3 is the right number even if you can't return all of them in one turn. In addition, they are black for Ichorids and if they don't have any hate, just imagine you have 3-5 3/1er in one turn.
I'm at a GPT again tomorrow. If i play X-0, X-1 or X-2 + Top 8 i will present you my results.

K1w1

[Final Fortune]

Wouldn't 1-2 Ashen Ghouls be sufficient?

Kind Regards,
jares

1 is worthless unless you're varying your creatures, i.e. playing it in addition to Nether Shadow, I've been happy with 2 myself altho' I could see playing 3 if you're willing to SB out the 4th Ichorid.

As an aside, does any one SB out Faithless Looting(s) whenever they SB out Lion's Eye Diamond vs Tormod's Crypt? I'm honestly starting to think that being able to reliably cast your draw spell is more important than running into a Tormod's Crypt, and Faithless Looting is pretty unreliable when you're anywhere from 2 to 4 mana sources down after SBing out LED for a couple of lands and whatever else you choose to bring in.

[Holly]

Thanks and good luck K1W1, looking forwards to your results ;)

Quadlaser with the new Sideboard or any changes for tomorrow?

[K1w1]

Quadlaser with the Ashen Ghoul board.
Maybe -1 Tarnished Citadel +1 Undiscovered Paradise.

[Michael Keller]

I suppose it depends.

I have been running two Ashen Ghouls in my sideboard, but I'm also not running the Quad list. So far it has been working pretty well for me.

[jares]

In the interest of saving sideboard space, I think that 2x Ashen Ghouls would be sufficient, given also that there's little benefit in having multiples of it in the graveyard when you only usually have one land to play with (of course, we can always bring one into play one at a time). I'll have to test that myself though.

Cheers,
jares

[Tombstalker]

Let's talk sideboard. I've noticed more people have been dropping firestorm and I'm wondering what gives?
The other question, how does antihate beat permanent hate with counter backup? Something as simple as cage + daze shuts down claims/chains for the duration it seems unless we top deck into another antihate before they find more counters, not likely. If this is common then would these slots be better off as proactive cards or at least something more like shattering spree?

[Michael Keller]

Let's talk sideboard. I've noticed more people have been dropping firestorm and I'm wondering what gives?
The other question, how does antihate beat permanent hate with counter backup? Something as simple as cage + daze shuts down claims/chains for the duration it seems unless we top deck into another antihate before they find more counters, not likely. If this is common then would these slots be better off as proactive cards or at least something more like shattering spree?

The format is shifting and to be honest cards like Firestorm (while great on paper), really don't solve any issues post-board. Sure, it kills Ooze and other associated pain in the asses, but really - those cards shouldn't matter and the deck can already race every other aggro deck in existence. It really only shines against Elves and even then I find myself rarely boarding it in. I might take them out on a trial basis.

If an opponent has conditional counter-magic to protect his or her permanent-based hate, then that really sucks for us. The best we can hope for is to try and kill it as quickly and discreetly as possible. But honestly, if they have something to protect it with, then we've either already lost or they have the nuts (basically hate with protection) and we're in a deep hole.

Mulligan right, play tight, and do the best you can.

[TraxDaMax]

I realize Ashen Ghoul has 2 power more, but isn't it ofter just better to have Nether Shadow because it's free to get back?
Actually while typing this I kind of figured out for quadlazer builds that power is relevant I guess, but in the DR lists I think I'd prefer the shadow. Thoughts?

[Holly]

Pretty much yes, if the sole purpose of your creatures is fodder for Therapys & DR then yes Shadows are better. But you cant allways rely on DR specially not in game 2 or 3 (in which you would bring the Ghould/Shadows) and in grindier games you want to deal damage with your creatures so the extra 2 power comes in handy.
Mostly you side your extra creatures in to diverse your threats versus Extraction, which is often used by controll decks (in conjunction with Snapcaster), these games tend to be grindier anyway.
Oh and since you want to diverse your threats you probably side out 1 Ichorid, maybe even 2 (if you play 4 main) and you will miss the power loss.

[Isaac]

So yesterday I went to a 38 man tournament in bloomington IL for a mox. I had some thoughts on some new ideas for the deck but I hadn't been play testing enough so I went with something I thought I was more comfortable with.

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 undiscovered paradise

4 Lion's Eye Diamond

3 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough

4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichoird
3 Cabal Therapy

3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp

4 Putrid Imp
2 Dread Return
1 flame kin zelot
1 Gristlebane

sb

4 leyline of the void
3 firestorm
3 natures claim
2 ancient grudge
1 elesh norn
1 iona
1 ichorid

I am sorry guys but I was way to tired to write down notes to make a decent report and I didn't write down any of my opponents names but I will try my best to recall the evening.

game 1 vs old school high tide

He wins the die roll and I get a mediocre hand. He plays a island and I instantly think high tide so I have a two turn clock. Turn 3 I play cabal naming high tide he lets it ride and I proceed to kill him. Game 2 was even worse for him as he kept a bad hand imo I cabaled him turn for a high tide getting it and then passed. He plays land pass I do my thing and then cabal again he responds with casting cunning wish for mindbreak trap and I name the trap and kill him.

1-0

Round two I won the die roll and played land faithless looting drawling me a led. I play the led and pass. He casts study and drops elesh and I wanna say blazing archon and passes. I dredge play coliseum led dredge my 5 off loot and coliseum and win. He mentions how if I didn't win that turn he would have won and I was like you don't say. I side in the leylines and one ichorid. My hand game 2 was iffy but it had leyline land and a drawl spell so I thought eh I can slow him down a bit. He keeps as do I and he plays misty rainforest I then say turn 0 and drop leyline and his expression is priceless. He counters my drawl and then we proceed to do the drawl go game. Hes casting ponder brainstorm but finding nothing. I'm passing like a champ and casting some drawl spells that get countered. I get two drawl spells in a row and he lets one resolve and I proceed to win.

2-0

Round 3 and I am feeling it my next round opponent complains on how dredge isn't a real magic deck trys to convince me about it and I tell him a story and he doesn't say another word. Basicly I was hard up for money like we all are and sold most of my collection. I do a snap keep and my hand is saucy and I tell him that. He mulls to 4 and keeps. I play land led loot then pass. Next turn I play coliseum and play another looting in my hand and pass. He beats me down with a delver and passes. I drawl and activate the coliseum and then proceed to loot again with led finding a stink. He beats my face in some more and I don't dredge into anything. More beats and I die quick. So I decide hes on surgical and bring in another ichorid and a elesh norn. Game 2 I dont recall but I won and then the epic game three happened. He mulls to 4 and I keep a nice 7. I dredge some he casts surgical on bridge. I dredge some more and he casts surgical on narcomoeba. I sigh and let it ride. He then casts a delver and I dredge trying to find my ichorids. We go to time and I have three in the yard. He stifles one during my upkeep and I bring in the two swing and pass. He swings with delver and passes. I dread return Gristle and pass. He doesn't see an out and folds it.

3-0

Going into 4th round I play a guy I know from town and there's only three undefeated players. We play and I know hes playing nic fit. I win game 1 and loose games 2 and 3. He had wheel of sun and moon game 2 which I destroyed and he played another hate card in nil spellbomb. Game 3 He plays nil first turn and then gets down an ooze and it's all said and done :(

3-1

So round 5 begins and I have a feeling after doing great in the first rounds this is where I shit and not make top. He wins the die and counters most of my spells and plays stoneforge followed up by a battleskull and a jittie. I then win game 2 and proceed to win game 3 with a iffy starting hand. I hand land double troll cabal and 4 other cards. I cabled myself on my turn and he lets it ride. I name the troll and he laughs. He doesn't play anything relevant and I get there.

4-1

So now the pressures off or so it seems and I ask my next round opponent if he wants to id He says yes and my record is good enough to get me into top 8.

4-1-1

top8 I face GW maverick and loose both games. Are first game was close but I didn't get there and then are second game he blew me out of the water with ooze and bog.

I dunno how I feel to come so long but not get there but my friend tries to cheer me up and says at least I got to top 8. I get 8 packs and we call it a day. I met some cool cats in bloomington and I saw 4 other dredge decks that day. If I had to do it all over I don't think I would change anything but maybe the side. The main deck was so insane all day for me and a Gristle bane hitting the table always meant a gg.

[Michael Keller]

I think going down on the number of Careful Study is a mistake. That should always be four, no matter what. All of your lands have the ability to produce Blue mana, where as cards like Faithless Looting and Putrid Imp require an investment of something other than four (4) Coliseum, which in this case leaves you with seven (7) only other options to combine with. That can create awkward circumstances and open hands not having the ability to produce Red or Black mana.

[K1w1]

Here are my results:

49 Players

Played the Quadlazer + Ashen Ghoul SB

I'm too lazy to report the matches. There is nothing important, except the thing, i can't beat Goblins...

2:1 Maverick
0:2 Goblins
6:0 Reanimator ( we played 4 more games for fun )
2:0 Canadian
2:1 Canadian
1:1 Canadian ( I accepted the draw, we both came in the Top 8, we played: 2:0 -.- )
Top 8:
1:2 Maverick

K1w1

[Holly]

If you dont mind, I'd like to hear some more informations in your Matches vs Canadian since I really dont know how to play against them, specially if we're on the draw. The DDD route seems to be to slow against their fast clock and one lands hands can be pretty sketchy if they have daze and/or spell pierce. So how do you play versus them? Mulligan for at least a 2 land-hand to play through daze? Try to overwhelm them as fast as possible?

[K1w1]

If you dont mind, I'd like to hear some more informations in your Matches vs Canadian since I really dont know how to play against them, specially if we're on the draw. The DDD route seems to be to slow against their fast clock and one lands hands can be pretty sketchy if they have daze and/or spell pierce. So how do you play versus them? Mulligan for at least a 2 land-hand to play through daze? Try to overwhelm them as fast as possible?

Even on the play or on the draw, mostly you try to LED first ( they will counter it, don't know why ) and afterwards you play the draw spells. So your graveyard is going bigger and bigger.
I definitely don't mull into two lands.
I also don't board in this matchup, like in maverick in which i don't do it too.
Just therapy right, and you win.
The worst situation is to lose against turn 1 delver, flip turn 2. Followed by Mongoose + Goyf.

K1w1

[joemauer]

Even on the play or on the draw, mostly you try to LED first ( they will counter it, don't know why )
K1w1

All of their counterspells are taxing like Daze and Pierce. If LED resolves your next discard spell will certainly resolve unless they have force of will.

Also, thresh players probably counter LED in hopes of it being our only discard spell.

[jares]

I think going down on the number of Careful Study is a mistake. That should always be four, no matter what. All of your lands have the ability to produce Blue mana, where as cards like Faithless Looting and Putrid Imp require an investment of something other than four (4) Coliseum, which in this case leaves you with seven (7) only other options to combine with. That can create awkward circumstances and open hands not having the ability to produce Red or Black mana.
+1

[jares]

If you dont mind, I'd like to hear some more informations in your Matches vs Canadian since I really dont know how to play against them, specially if we're on the draw. The DDD route seems to be to slow against their fast clock and one lands hands can be pretty sketchy if they have daze and/or spell pierce. So how do you play versus them? Mulligan for at least a 2 land-hand to play through daze? Try to overwhelm them as fast as possible?
With the number of lands that LED Dredge runs (12-14), you've only got a 42.96% chance of getting 2 lands after the first mulligan (at 14 lands). While that probability isn't so bad, I doubt if there exists a intentional strategy in Dredge that requires 2 lands (except, of course, for Cephalid Coliseum). :tongue:

If only I could play Tolarian Winds properly... :frown:

Cheers,
jares

[Isaac]

Hollywood I respect your opinion you know but I felt that day I never missed the one. I went undefeated until round three in matches and in round 3 I had plenty of drawl just no dredgers in the first game. Round 4 the one I lost I never felt an extra drawl spell would help and in top my first game was close he had thalia out and waste my land. I didn't miss the one study at all and my results show cutting one while not being optimal is a choice you can make.

[jares]

Hollywood I respect your opinion you know but I felt that day I never missed the one. I went undefeated until round three in matches and in round 3 I had plenty of drawl just no dredgers in the first game. Round 4 the one I lost I never felt an extra drawl spell would help and in top my first game was close he had thalia out and waste my land. I didn't miss the one study at all and my results show cutting one while not being optimal is a choice you can make.
I believe that I discussed something in the previous pages that might be relevant to what you're saying, as shown below:

The list of areas that have become flexible has grown more and more over time, such that even a Narcomeoba would be cut from time to time. I don't believe that all of this "flexing" is beneficial, though - in fact, I find that most of it is probably harmful (the Narcomeoba example being one of the more obvious ones). As an example, I find cutting a Breakthrough or two from the main deck to be questionable, as my experience has taught me that I would want a Breakthrough in my hand as often as possible. The same goes for Cabal Therapy, especially when considering the possibility of going against tricky match-ups. Of course, it has been proven time and again that running less than a full set of these cards can still produce wins, and that's where things become much more "flexible", at least in terms of perception.

Virtually every card in the deck has been "flexed" at one time or another, except maybe for the following:

Bridge from Below
Golgari Grave-Troll
Stinkweed Imp
Gemstone Mine
City of Brass


I guess Careful Study is one of those cards that falls under the "flex slots" even though some of us feel that it should be in the Core. As noted above, virtually any build has the potential to win, simply because the power level of Dredge seems to have that threshold for empowering decks that may not be optimally built. This threshold makes it that much more difficult for us to determine what is "optimal", as each of our experiences will surely teach us something different about the deck - unfortunately, some of the things that we've learned might not at all be beneficial to the deck.

Kind Regards,
jares

[Calado]

Here are my results:

49 Players

Played the Quadlazer + Ashen Ghoul SB

I'm too lazy to report the matches. There is nothing important, except the thing, i can't beat Goblins.

I never faced goblins...
What was the biggest problem in this match?
And against Maverick, did you miss Firestorm, or was just bad luck?

[K1w1]

I never faced goblins...
What was the biggest problem in this match?
And against Maverick, did you miss Firestorm, or was just bad luck?

My biggest problem is the speed. They are really fast.
The situation preboard was this: She had 12 Goblins, I had 8 Zombies. She removed my Bridges with Mogg War Marshal. And with Ringleader + hasty creatures = GG

I don't play Firestorm and i won't play Firestorm. I think Firestorm is a bad choice in LED Dredge.
Normally you just race them with your speed.

I had bad luck. We went in game 3 and i had to mull three times and i was on the play. And he had everything.

K1w1

[Michael Keller]

Hollywood I respect your opinion you know but I felt that day I never missed the one. I went undefeated until round three in matches and in round 3 I had plenty of drawl just no dredgers in the first game. Round 4 the one I lost I never felt an extra drawl spell would help and in top my first game was close he had thalia out and waste my land. I didn't miss the one study at all and my results show cutting one while not being optimal is a choice you can make.

That's understandable and all, but the small sample of games you played in - while still a moderate success - will be overshadowed over the course of the long-haul in that it will clearly indicate that it is probably a more viable solution to play a full set over three. It will slightly improve your mulligans and opening hands in addition to allowing you to draw into anti-hate post-board while also giving you a chance to recover after you've been hit with said hate.

Putrid Imp is great at slow-rolling the dredges and feeding Ichorids, but it doesn't dig you deeper through your deck which is what you want to be doing. I am not sure what kind of hand you kept against Maverick Round Four, but I would be interested in knowing.

It is a choice you can make on a basic level of thinking, but you really should be running four Study for optimizing just about every aspect of your game.

[Anusien]

I would cut anything but dredgers and lands for Careful Study. I would easily run up to 12 or more of this card if they let me.

[Isaac]

i didn't face maverick until top round 4 was nic fit. From what I recall I had looting land narc study and two other cards. I had plenty of drawl the problem was the waste on my one land plus thalia.

[Tombstalker]

Below is the list I have built and I would like some input on my choices. My thought process is to maximize the most powerful draw cards and win conditions for game 1 without hitting 'diminishing returns' such as the 4th ichorid. Basically I am trying to optimize lands, dredgers, cards that draw and discard, and black creatures (griselbrand fits into both these last two catagories).
Post board in the face of hate the deck can slow its plan with pimps if necessary and diversify with ghouls for beatdown and shadow to further diversify and facilitate bridges/therapy etc. The rest of the board im unsure on since im pretty much just following suite with what you guys have tried and tested but im wanting some yard hate in there somewhere. Anyway here it is:


Lands 13
4 city of brass
4 gemstone mine
4 cephalid Colliseum
1 undiscovered paradise

Dredgers 12
4 golgari grave-troll
4 stinkweed imp
4 golgari thug

Business 13
4 bridge from Below
4 narcomoeba
3 ichorid
2 dread Return

Draw/discard 20
4 LED
4 cabal therapy
4 faithless looting
4 careful study
4 breakthrough

DR Target 2
2 griselbrand

Sideboard 15
4 putrid imp
1 memory’s journey
1 ancient grudge
4 natures claim
2 ashen ghoul
1 nether shadow
1 iona
1 open slot

[rxavage]

Has anyone tested Thought Scour? It seems like a good fit, the only issue is that it isnt better than careful study, faithless looting, or breakthrough.

[Tombstalker]

I haven't tested scour but hapless researcher seems better in most instances, too bad it isn't black.

[Izor]

I haven't tested scour but hapless researcher seems better in most instances, too bad it isn't black.

Both have been tested, although it took only one day to realize they're very lackluster.

A draw-discard effect really has to push it over the top in order to be played over Study, Looting and Breakthrough (plus Coliseum). I can't think of anything they could even print right now that wouldn't be too broken.

[Michael Keller]

So is it safe to say everyone is eschewing the Firestorms in the sideboard?

[igri_is_a_bk]

Absolutely not. Against seven of the top 16 decks from Worcester, I'd want to bring in Firestorm.

Threshold UGr
RUG Delver
Threshold UGr
Maverick
Maverick
Threshold UGr
Elves

I don't understand why people are hating on Firestorm. Especially when somebody posted above about how they can't beat Goblins, yet they won't play the card. o_O

[Michael Keller]

Absolutely not. Against seven of the top 16 decks from Worcester, I'd want to bring in Firestorm.

Threshold UGr
RUG Delver
Threshold UGr
Maverick
Maverick
Threshold UGr
Elves

I don't understand why people are hating on Firestorm. Especially when somebody posted above about how they can't beat Goblins, yet they won't play the card. o_O

Right, but do you think the inability to beat those decks - like Goblins - is a biproduct of play mistakes and poor mulligan strategy rather than tight play? LED Dredge crushes most of those match-ups if played correctly.

Maverick is on the decline and we just race them out anyhow. Elves is the same thing. I like Firestorm, don't get me wrong, but I think right now it's not as good as it was a few months back.

[K1w1]

I don't understand why people are hating on Firestorm. Especially when somebody posted above about how they can't beat Goblins, yet they won't play the card. o_O

I won't waste 4 slots for one deck i normally race. And i more likely wanna have Ashen Ghouls than Firestorm in the RUG matchup.

K1w1

[jares]

So is it safe to say everyone is eschewing the Firestorms in the sideboard?
I've observed that this is more commonly done in LED builds. The same isn't as true for LEDless builds.

Cheers,
jares

[igri_is_a_bk]

I won't waste 4 slots for one deck i normally race. And i more likely wanna have Ashen Ghouls than Firestorm in the RUG matchup.

K1w1

Clearly you aren't playing Firestorm specifically aimed at beating Goblins. The fact its applicable to the matchup is just a little gratuity. And there's no rule that you can't play Firestorm and Ghoul in your board. Ghoul takes up two slots and can be sided alongside three (or even four) Firestorm with ease.

The UGr tempo decks don't play many threats, we all know that. Firestorm buys us more time than anyone seems to want to admit. It'll at least earn you two turns. That's the minimum and assumes they have another threat in hand or on the top three they can cantrip into.

[K1w1]

Clearly you aren't playing Firestorm specifically aimed at beating Goblins. The fact its applicable to the matchup is just a little gratuity. And there's no rule that you can't play Firestorm and Ghoul in your board. Ghoul takes up two slots and can be sided alongside three (or even four) Firestorm with ease.

The UGr tempo decks don't play many threats, we all know that. Firestorm buys us more time than anyone seems to want to admit. It'll at least earn you two turns. That's the minimum and assumes they have another threat in hand or on the top three they can cantrip into.

Wrong. For me, because i'm playing the quadlaser, there is no space for firestorm. The Ghouls are taking six (6) slots in the board! 3 Ghouls, 3 Lands. And this is right. And my results are speaking for itself.

Even if i lose against decks like Goblins, i can give a [...] about it. They are really rare.
Threshold, Maverick, UW Miracle, Dredge, BUG Control, some Storm. These are the decks i have to face and in this matchups i really don't need a [...] firestorm.



K1w1

[Felidae]

And there's no rule that you can't play Firestorm and Ghoul in your board

There is however a certain rule that lets you choose only a limited number of sideboard cards and I'd be curious what you'd cut for them ( bear in mind that in a LED build you'll end up spending 2/3 slots for extra lands, slots that could perfectly been occupied by Firestorm in LEDless builds).


The UGr tempo decks don't play many threats, we all know that. Firestorm buys us more time than anyone seems to want to admit. It'll at least earn you two turns. That's the minimum and assumes they have another threat in hand or on the top three they can cantrip into.

The only critter Firestorm really hits is Delver, as Goyf will usually be to big and Nimble Mongoose doesn't care about Firestorm anyway.
Considering that their counters are most likely cheap taxing spells ( Daze / Pierce, Flusterstorm), combined with Wasteland , will often just turn Firestorm into a 1 mana discard spell that will eventually take a counter from their hand.
Allthough that might not seem like the worst thing that a spell could achieve we don't really need something like this in the matchup.

As Kiwi said: Either side the Ashen Ghouls + Lands or don't sideboard at all against RUG, play tight and you'll win, unless they got the nut draw.

Yet I have to admit that all of the above is just valid if you play the german list and if with RUG we both mean the same Deck. If you are looking for advise with the combo oriented list running Grinselbrand/ etc., or if you are talking about those RUG decks running Snapcaster / Lavamancer / stuff, then I'd love to hear opinions from other players, as allmost no one in germany plays those decks ( well no one who is succesfull with them).

[HokusSchmokus]

I would not be surprised if the RUG igri talks about is the same RUG that Drew Levin used to display to the world his nonexisting knowledge of Legacy.
Spell Pierce over Stifle:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Basicly, Firestorm just has this incredible antisynergy with LED. That's why I wouldn't run it anymore.

I would play maindeck Firestorm in LEDless Dredge lists, though.

[TraxDaMax]

I always figured firestorm was for scaveging ooze. I didn't even consider it against RUG.

[igri_is_a_bk]

See, quad laser isnt a variant I prefer because you have to waste (yes, waste) three slots on lands that should be in your deck anyways. I'm not going to say you have to run Firestorm, but I will as long as I have the space for them. Using 14 lands in your starting 60 gives you this option.

And I'm referring to the lists from Worcester. No need to guess. I already said that and listed them.

And I side out LED when I bring in Firestorm, just like most people.

Against RUG, I can side in four Firestorm and two Ghoul because I have ten gold lands already available.

[Michael Keller]

See, quad laser isnt a variant I prefer because you have to waste (yes, waste) three slots on lands that should be in your deck anyways. I'm not going to say you have to run Firestorm, but I will as long as I have the space for them. Using 14 lands in your starting 60 gives you this option.

And I'm referring to the lists from Worcester. No need to guess. I already said that and listed them.

And I side out LED when I bring in Firestorm, just like most people.

Against RUG, I can side in four Firestorm and two Ghoul because I have ten gold lands already available.

You never side out Lion's Eye Diamond for Firestorm, ever. In the match-ups where Firestorm would be necessary, you can simply roll an opponent in conjunction with LED and blow them out of the water. Firestorm is specifically geared toward trapping turbo-aggressive aggro strategies, something LED Dredge doesn't have a hard time dealing with anyhow.

If you're staring down a Scavenging Ooze and you have your LED's boarded out, that's your first mistake right there. Lion's Eye Diamond is a facilitator with your draw spells and can be played before you even consider discarding cards to Firestorm. For what it does, it really isn't necessary as most tribal decks have either disappeared or pop up in random tournaments here and there. If it's worth playing in your meta, go for it. But you should never board out LED for Firestorm. While both serve different purposes, one has the ability to create a degenerate set of circumstances in your favor while the other can't. And most decks that opt to run hate in the form of creatures really are all-in on them to be the ones to save them the game, like Ooze or a one-of Bog.

If you're sitting back and waiting to use Firestorm, you're essentially losing already by giving an opponent more time to draw into hate or conditional counter-magic. You're better off just going for the win with LED and ending the game as soon as possible. Scavenging Ooze will sit there scratching its head on turn two while half of your deck is in your graveyard. Anti-hate in the form of anything other than creatures can be answered with varying sideboard choices. Hate in the form of creatures, however, can effectively be raced with LED at the ready and basically taking away a top-decked answer from the opponent. Even if you're looking at a board state of six to eight Zombies and a few Narcomoebas, that's still pretty good. I'll take that over a turn three Firestorm into maybe two or three Zombies and walking into a Crypt or Relic the next turn any day.

Remember, LED is the card that can also lift you from the depths of defeat after hate has been applied. For instance, let's say you top-deck a draw spell like Looting and play it, thus drawing into a Thug and a LED. Now you have the opportunity to re-stabilize, something people don't give LED enough credit for.

(And don't forget, pitching your Bridge(s) to Firestorm sometimes is the only way to cast it at a given time. That in turn exiles them in the process.)

[HokusSchmokus]

See, quad laser isnt a variant I prefer because you have to waste (yes, waste) three slots on lands that should be in your deck anyways. I'm not going to say you have to run Firestorm, but I will as long as I have the space for them. Using 14 lands in your starting 60 gives you this option.

This can be said about any style this deck can be build in. I, for example don't like to waste(and I mean it the same way you meant it, I'm not mocking or anything)4-5 Slots in my first 60 for lands I don't need game 1 and the to me almost useless DR+possible target.
I was looking for my NonLED lists before Looting and I almost always used 3 slots for situational DR targets in my board. I think if I were to play DR, I had at least Hypnotist, Iona, Angel of Dispair in my board.

As to siding out LEDs for Firestorms, I don't get why you would be doing that(Edit: should read all posts, Hollywood already spoke on that matter)

Also just out of curiosity: Why is a land in the board a wasted slot? You don't need answers to hate preboard, so you don't need the extra lands. If you side in answers like Chain of Vapor or Nature's Claim, you basicly try to be able to play a more controlling game if need be, so you need the extra lands. Also the plan B of hardcasting stuff to turn it into Gas via Blocks/Therapies/DR is really only coming up game 2/3. If you had the lands in your Maindeck though, you have less cards you actually need game 1(e.g. Cabal Therapy, and I still don't get why people are only playing three of this card)

[chags]

Gerry T's lists from the past few SCG tournaments containe LED with 3 firestorm in the SB. I used to play a lot of dredge and have been away from it for a little bit, why exactly is firestorm such a terrible choice right now? At the very least it is an uncounterable discard outlet. Also could someone post the ashen ghoul list people keep referencing? I haven't seen it. Thanks in advance.

EDIT POST: I found the "quadlaser" list. What decks does ghoul shine against? What is the correct strategy to abuse him? Is he meant to fill the same roll nether shadow does in Gerry T's list?

[Michael Keller]

Gerry T's lists from the past few SCG tournaments containe LED with 3 firestorm in the SB. I used to play a lot of dredge and have been away from it for a little bit, why exactly is firestorm such a terrible choice right now? At the very least it is an uncounterable discard outlet. Also could someone post the ashen ghoul list people keep referencing? I haven't seen it. Thanks in advance.

A lot of folks still run Firestorm in their sideboard, myself included. Even though it is an uncounterable discard outlet, it still doesn't do anything more of in the match-ups where it would matter as opposed to LED - but not nearly as fast. The goal of Firestorm is to trap an opponent into overextending their board state and just blow them out. But the truth is that there really is no point in waiting when you can just beat them straight up with LED anyhow.

Take for instance RUG. Firestorm is unlikely to kill a Tarmogoyf, can't hit Mongoose, and is a waste against a two-of Ooze that can be raced and beaten. The only other target is Delver, and to a lesser extent Snapcaster Mage. You don't board to beat the creatures, you board to beat the hate - something LED Dredge can already do effectively enough. Against Elves, stripping their hand is just as good as wiping out their board, and against Goblins, you just race them and try to blow them out as fast as possible. Firestorm also forces you to hold back and keep open your potentially only land and thus open susceptibility to Wasteland - which could be horrible if you have draw spells in your hand.

[HokusSchmokus]

Gerry T's lists from the past few SCG tournaments containe LED with 3 firestorm in the SB. I used to play a lot of dredge and have been away from it for a little bit, why exactly is firestorm such a terrible choice right now? At the very least it is an uncounterable discard outlet. Also could someone post the ashen ghoul list people keep referencing? I haven't seen it. Thanks in advance.

EDIT POST: I found the "quadlaser" list. What decks does ghoul shine against? What is the correct strategy to abuse him? Is he meant to fill the same roll nether shadow does in Gerry T's list?

Ghoul and Nether Shadow are both representing an alternative strategy to fight extraction effects(the other strategy being responding to Extraction with Coffin Purge/ Memory's Journey). There is an added bonus in being good against Control and Extirpate.
I like Ghoul more because I don't play DR, so 0 mana 1/1 haste guys are pretty bad compared to a B 3/1 haste guy. If you have the additional mass sacrifice outlet in Dread Return, that could be different. You normally play like 2-3 of either of those.

To clarify: Firestorm has never been a bad card to play in Dredge, and I don't think it is bad now. It just isn't good enough vs. Maverick in my experience, compared to boarding in either Claims(that you need anyway if you expect a Enlightened Tutor toolbox) or nothing at all and race them with LED.
In addition, Hollywood pretty much nailed it(twice)

On a completely different note:
To the non-germans: because of a rather influential and really really good Canadian player (Fabian Moyschewitz), who has a huge influence on Canadian lists in Germany, Savenging Ooze is not played in Canadian builds here at all.Well, not at higher tables at least. What is your experience against Savenging Ooze in RUG? I played it today on Cockatrice and completely crushed him because, well, he's playing a mana sink creature in a very greedy deck with only 4-5 green sources. What are your thoughts on it?

[NecroYawgmoth]

I would play maindeck Firestorm in LEDless Dredge lists, though.

<3

[chags]

For those of you running no dread returns has it affected your game at all? I only DR for troll MD but I recall there being times where you just really need the big body. The current list I'm practicing has 1 DR main 1 DR sb, do the majority of LED dredge players find no DR in the 75 to be significantly better?

[igri_is_a_bk]

I don't think putting a single land in your sideboard is a waste. That's only because I think all lists should have at least 10 gold lands in the first place. Putting three in the board? That's when I think you've committed too many slots to something you want game one anyways, no matter the matchup.

I don't side out LED first necessarily. Breakthrough is definitely my most sided out card. I really haven't found a strict formula for sideboarding yet. I change what I take out pretty regularly while I'm deciding what I like best. Keeping in LED could be correct, but that's not the point I was trying to address. My whole point was Firestorm has application against a lot of decks and I can't see myself removing it from my board anytime soon.

[joemauer]

A lot of folks still run Firestorm in their sideboard, myself included.

Your posts made a lot of sense Hollywood, except this. Why do still have firestorm in your sideboard?

[Michael Keller]

Your posts made a lot of sense Hollywood, except this. Why do still have firestorm in your sideboard?

I've been really busy transitioning out of the military that I haven't had a whole lot of time these last few weeks to work on my sideboard. It's leaving, though.

[HokusSchmokus]

I don't think putting a single land in your sideboard is a waste. That's only because I think all lists should have at least 10 gold lands in the first place. Putting three in the board? That's when I think you've committed too many slots to something you want game one anyways, no matter the matchup.


See, that's what I meant. That's just not true for everybody. I don't feel I need 10 gold lands main. I guess this leads to nothing^^

[Mojeh]

<3

@Hokus: May I ask what list would you play, without LED's?
I used to play Firestorm MD, but Faithless Looting seems too good, even without LED.
Maybe cut some Breakthrough?

[HokusSchmokus]

Basicly my list from GP Amsterdam, with a few maindeck changes and totally different board.

http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7049&iddeck=51140

I would test -1 Ichorid, -1 Citadel, -1 Breakthrough-1 PImp +4 Looting at first.

Note that I didn't play LEDless Dredge since December or so. I don't test it anymore either. So the list may be suboptimal, but that's where I would start.

[Mojeh]

Ok, thanks a lot ^^

[feline]

I really need to be pushing this deck again, everytime I do though its just memories of hate hate hate! Plus lately I've completed a few other decks and fell in love with them for a while.

I noticed recently that the top dredge finish at starcitygames, they ran 3 ichorid while only running 1 dread return and no maindeck DR targets, I'm currently toying with that, it's such a tight list and while ichorid isn't a game breaker, it does reanimate itself and keep swinging unless its Removed from game, I have been fine with no main deck DR target, but going from 2 to 1 Dread return before was something I wouldn't have considered, seeing it now though I am more leaning towards it

The other balance is between careful study / breakthrough / faithless looting / cephalid colliseum / putrid imp:

obviously, faithless looting is staying a 4 of, so is cephalid colliseum, and since more ichorids mean more ichorid food, ill keep the putrid imp's as well. So it comes down to careful study/breakthrough, and in a way, breakthrough is like a faithless looting w/ flashback (dredge 4 times total) that doesn't require the lion's eye diamond, where careful study is only half that, and if you don't want to dump too much to the graveyard, don't dredge all your draw's on the breakthrough, just do enough to put enough pressure on them, if the argument is against the speed of breakthrough. Also in the position of discarding your whole hand but wanting to keep a card or 2, and not being able to do that with a turn 1 breakthrough, then just do the other stuff turn 1 (since all the stuff you cast is probably 1 cmc or "free" anyhow) and just wait till the next turn, it all depends on specifics, now that ive typed out my thoughts though i think im going to have a breakthrough push -vs- a careful study push, i wish i could just run 4 / 4 of both though.

[Gui]

Here's a tip to all of you: If you want to hit amazing hands all the time, don't ever cut any Faithless Looting, Cephalid Coliseum and Careful Study. Not even one. Ever. Cut PImp, cut BT, but don't mess with these 12.

[HokusSchmokus]

Exactly. I would rather play more than those 8 Studies but that isn't possible:(

[Tombstalker]

Here's a tip to all of you: If you want to hit amazing hands all the time, don't ever cut any Faithless Looting, Cephalid Coliseum and Careful Study. Not even one. Ever. Cut PImp, cut BT, but don't mess with these 12.
This is what im learning. I say pimp belongs in the board, at least for now. Study spells, coliseum, LED and BT are all power cards. In comparison pimp is obviously the weakest link, more the definition of a SB card, a fallback to the primary plan of exploding on someones face game 1 in the absence of hate.
From my recent experience a pimp in the opener game 1 doesnt make a hand any more keepable without more draw/discard spells anyway and after that hes usually just ichorid fodder.

[jares]

Here's a tip to all of you: If you want to hit amazing hands all the time, don't ever cut any Faithless Looting, Cephalid Coliseum and Careful Study. Not even one. Ever. Cut PImp, cut BT, but don't mess with these 12.
+1

[HokusSchmokus]

This is what im learning. I say pimp belongs in the board, at least for now. Study spells, coliseum, LED and BT are all power cards. In comparison pimp is obviously the weakest link, more the definition of a SB card, a fallback to the primary plan of exploding on someones face game 1 in the absence of hate.
From my recent experience a pimp in the opener game 1 doesnt make a hand any more keepable without more draw/discard spells anyway and after that hes usually just ichorid fodder.

Are you kidding?PImp makes still the most consistent openers. Exspecially in the comboesque builds.

[Michael Keller]

Axing Imp is a terrible idea. That's like playing three Force of Will with eleven Blue cards. Totally not worth it.

[Tombstalker]

Are you kidding?PImp makes still the most consistent openers. Exspecially in the comboesque builds.
But in place of what? Not saying pimp is a bad card just where do I find room for it and all the more broken enablers? I am trying to find a build that I like and that functions well so I am interested in your LED list if you dont mind.

[Gui]

I agree that PImp is a good card, and it's worth more than just "discard outlet". Being repeatable and usable to create zombies, attacking for 2 and pitching for our 3/1 isn't to be forgot. But in fact, discard outlet is the combo piece that usual dredge decks have the most. I can't blame hyper-comboish lists for cutting PImps. It's better than cutting CS anyways.

[Final Fortune]

Cutting Breakthrough, Faithless Looting or Careful Study is always wrong, and I'd say cutting Cabal Therapy is always wrong as well fwiw altho' it's less noticeable because it's only tangible when you're in race situations with Storm, Elves, Sneak Attack, Reanimator etc, so the only flexible slots in lists are usually the 12th Golgari Thug and the 4th Putrid Imp because they battle for the 9th and 10th golden lands and your SB space IMO.

The 3 Ichorid, 1 Dread Return win conditions are my favorite configuration, because it conserves a SB slot by MDing a Dread Return and 3 Ichorid is the sweet spot between having redundancy vs Swords to Plowshares and Tormod's Crypt while reducing the effectiveness of Surgical Extraction.

[HokusSchmokus]

But in place of what? Not saying pimp is a bad card just where do I find room for it and all the more broken enablers? I am trying to find a build that I like and that functions well so I am interested in your LED list if you dont mind.

My LED build is the quad. It's in the OP of the primer.
SB: 3 Ashen Ghoul
2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Chain of Vapor(will be Nature's Claim most likely)
4 Leyline otV
1 Ancient Grudge

The reason I don't have to cut stuff for PImp and the like is that I don't play fancy DR stuff. That's not for everyone,I imagine but works better than any other list so far for me.

I'd play 3 PImps, 3 Thugs 3 Ichorids if I were to play 2 DR and a target.

Edit: I don't really see a point in having more than 12 Lands total maindeck, if you were wondering how I fit all the cards in the MD:P

[iPhael]

My LED build is the quad. It's in the OP of the primer.
SB: 3 Ashen Ghoul
2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Chain of Vapor(will be Nature's Claim most likely)
4 Leyline otV
1 Ancient Grudge

The reason I don't have to cut stuff for PImp and the like is that I don't play fancy DR stuff. That's not for everyone,I imagine but works better than any other list so far for me.

I'd play 3 PImps, 3 Thugs 3 Ichorids if I were to play 2 DR and a target.

Edit: I don't really see a point in having more than 12 Lands total maindeck, if you were wondering how I fit all the cards in the MD:P

I completely agree. 12 lands is more then enough, at 13 I'm routinely able to play around daze/pierce. Maybe I'm lucky with my Sneak n Tell matches, but I always hit blind therapy on Force and play around Daze with ridiculous ease. This makes me want to move the one Paradise to the board (or cut it altogether) in favor of the 4th thug or a Darkblast. It seems kind of crazy, but I've been having issues with 11 dredgers a bit more often then I'd like. It's only ~10% of games or so, and usually completely random, but still.

Also, about the cuts: I play GB/FKZ currently and have tried a ton of variations, but always come back to 3pimp/3thug/3ichorid. This is pretty much set in stone for me unless I add the 12th dredger. I've also rid myself of Firestorm from the board, as I am not scared of Maverick at all. Leyline seems like the obvious shoe-in but I'm still kind of on the fence. The 2 Ghouls / Journey board plan has been FANTASTIC on the other hand, and will be sticking around for a while methinks. Here's what I've been testing for those that care


3 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll

3 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
1 Griselbrand
1 Flame-kin Zealot

2 Dread Return
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Undiscovered Paradise

SB:
4 Nature's Claim
2 Memory's Journey
2 Ashen Ghoul
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Leyline of the Void (used to be 3x Firestorm/1xDarkblast)

[HokusSchmokus]

Note that by siding in cards like Ashen Ghoul, you really are running tight on mana. I'd recommend any Dredge player to have at least 14 lands between maindeck and sideboard.

[iPhael]

Note that by siding in cards like Ashen Ghoul, you really are running tight on mana. I'd recommend any Dredge player to have at least 14 lands between maindeck and sideboard.

Yeah, it's the main reason I haven't cut the 13th land. If I opt for 3x Firestorm over the Leyline's for Seattle I'll probably add the 14th in the extra slot if need be.

[jares]

I completely agree. 12 lands is more then enough
It really depends on what you're referring to as "enough".

At 12 lands (with only 8 Gold Lands), you have an 80.94% chance to get a land in your opening hand (7 cards), with only a 65.36% chance of getting a Gold Land. This might seem "enough" to some, but I doubt that these numbers could be categorized as "more than enough". Of course, there's also LED that also technically serves as a mana source, but it can't be counted-on to cast the majority of our spells.

Kind Regards,
jares

[iPhael]

It really depends on what you're referring to as "enough".

At 12 lands (with only 8 Gold Lands), you have an 80.94% chance to get a land in your opening hand (7 cards), with only a 65.36% chance of getting a Gold Land. This might seem "enough" to some, but I doubt that these numbers could be categorized as "more than enough". Of course, there's also LED that also technically serves as a mana source, but it can't be counted-on to cast the majority of our spells.

Kind Regards,
jares

Oh no doubt. Statistically speaking, 12 is just shy of ideal, but I always seem to flood (3 lands in play) at 14. It happens more rarely at 13 but still enough for me to bring up dropping one. It's just a matter of variance as I seem to be experiencing far more issues with actually dredging then casting spells these days :P That said, I was merely agreeing with the Quadlazer style mana base being rock solid, and at least worth looking at in GB lists :)

Also, If I were to run 12 land, with none in the board, I would certainly advocate Nether Shadow in place of the Ashen Ghoul. Just as food for thought.

[Michael Keller]

I completely agree. 12 lands is more then enough, at 13 I'm routinely able to play around daze/pierce. Maybe I'm lucky with my Sneak n Tell matches, but I always hit blind therapy on Force and play around Daze with ridiculous ease. This makes me want to move the one Paradise to the board (or cut it altogether) in favor of the 4th thug or a Darkblast. It seems kind of crazy, but I've been having issues with 11 dredgers a bit more often then I'd like. It's only ~10% of games or so, and usually completely random, but still.

Also, about the cuts: I play GB/FKZ currently and have tried a ton of variations, but always come back to 3pimp/3thug/3ichorid. This is pretty much set in stone for me unless I add the 12th dredger. I've also rid myself of Firestorm from the board, as I am not scared of Maverick at all. Leyline seems like the obvious shoe-in but I'm still kind of on the fence. The 2 Ghouls / Journey board plan has been FANTASTIC on the other hand, and will be sticking around for a while methinks. Here's what I've been testing for those that care


3 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll

3 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
1 Griselbrand
1 Flame-kin Zealot

2 Dread Return
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Undiscovered Paradise

SB:
4 Nature's Claim
2 Memory's Journey
2 Ashen Ghoul
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Leyline of the Void (used to be 3x Firestorm/1xDarkblast)

That is my exact main-board and sideboard...except I have the Firestorms and another Grudge in there. I'm still debating what to remove and put in their place, though.

[iPhael]

That is my exact main-board and sideboard...except I have the Firestorms and another Grudge in there. I'm still debating what to remove and put in their place, though.

Really? Awesome :laugh:. Yeah, I can't think of anything I'd change other then the Leylines' (and my recent desire for the 12th dredger) either, the list is SO tight and just feels unfair 99% of the time.

I mean yesterday against maverick I DDD'd for giggles on the draw into his t2 GSZ->Ooze. My turn 2; dredged up the imp, LED + Coliseum from hand, DR, swing for lethal... Cutting Firestorm really feels like the right call, like you said, we can outrace anything but nut draws and even then can handle it unless our deck shits on us. The deck leaves me speechless most of my games.

[jares]

Also, If I were to run 12 land, with none in the board, I would certainly advocate Nether Shadow in place of the Ashen Ghoul. Just as food for thought.
I agree. 8 Gold Lands doesn't see to be enough to support additional Ashen Ghouls, not to mention that Wastelands would surely become more effective in the case where these lands would be scarce. In the configurations using Ashen Ghoul, adding more lands to the main deck (e.g. 14 total) would surely save the necessary SB space.

Kind Regards,
jares

[Final Fortune]

My LED build is the quad. It's in the OP of the primer.
SB: 3 Ashen Ghoul
2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Chain of Vapor(will be Nature's Claim most likely)
4 Leyline otV
1 Ancient Grudge

The reason I don't have to cut stuff for PImp and the like is that I don't play fancy DR stuff. That's not for everyone,I imagine but works better than any other list so far for me.

I'd play 3 PImps, 3 Thugs 3 Ichorids if I were to play 2 DR and a target.

Edit: I don't really see a point in having more than 12 Lands total maindeck, if you were wondering how I fit all the cards in the MD:P

12 is definitely not enough, you need to either think about your ability to support your SB cards or how aggressively 12+ lands allows you to mulligan when necessary.

As an aside, I don't know if you guys ever see Peacekeeper, but he's arguably the biggest kick in the balls you'll wish you would have prepared for by playing 2xGolgari Thug and 1xDarkblast. It pays to differentiate those win condition and dredger slots, even ever so slightly.

[Izor]

12 Lands is really careless.

Really, cut two PImps and play two lands main. The PImps can go in the side, if people have the room for 3 Lands side they also have room for 2 PImps if the additional land are main. You'll mull a whole lot less hands. I promise. And judging by the fact that the only way this deck actually loses game 1 is through multiple mulligans or suboptimal hands, how could one argue against it?

In order to get the must busted hands you want Gold Land, discard outlet, Dredger, draw spell. Why would you go for a 8-16-12-16 ratio if you can easily make it 10-14-12-16? Doesn't make sense to me. I'm trying to find room for the 15th Land main right now. Getting flooded with 8 Lands in the deck and having 3 in play everytime is not what you should consider the rule. That should happen in maybe one game out of 20 (only a number I made up).


Ashen Ghoul is performing okay so far. Nonetheless, in a list with multiple Dread Returns and good standalone targets like Iona, Nether Shadow is presumably better. In a list with no DR (or if you don't plan on having a DR package in your deck post board against Extractions), Ashen Ghoul seems stronger.

[Felidae]

12 is definitely not enough, you need to either think about your ability to support your SB cards or how aggressively 12+ lands allows you to mulligan when necessary.

Yeah supporting your SB cards with only 12 lands seems really difficult. If only there would be a way to side in additional lands together with your SB hate, but I guess I'm living in magic christmas land here....


As an aside, I don't know if you guys ever see Peacekeeper, but he's arguably the biggest kick in the balls you'll wish you would have prepared for by playing 2xGolgari Thug and 1xDarkblast. It pays to differentiate those win condition and dredger slots, even ever so slightly.

Haven't seem him since 2010, where I played him in my landstill SB, however there might be a chance that he'll see play in those UW Terminator decks ( though he doesn't look to hot together with Terminus).
But if he sees the daylight once more you are absolutly right.

[HokusSchmokus]

Why would you go for a 8-16-12-16 ratio if you can easily make it 10-14-12-16? Doesn't make sense to me.


As stated above, I don't feel like I need more than 12 preboard. That's why I don't run more. Totally subjective.


Ashen Ghoul is performing okay so far. Nonetheless, in a list with multiple Dread Returns and good standalone targets like Iona, Nether Shadow is presumably better. In a list with no DR (or if you don't plan on having a DR package in your deck post board against Extractions), Ashen Ghoul seems stronger.
This.

[jares]

As stated above, I don't feel like I need more than 12 preboard. That's why I don't run more. Totally subjective.

I guess that preference is subjective, but the probabilities aren't. With only 8 Gold Lands among the 12 that you're running in the main deck (instead of maybe 10 Gold Lands, or even 12 in some builds), you have a significantly weaker chance of being able to hard-cast a Faithless Looting, Putrid Imp, or even a Cabal Therapy. LED surely helps in filling the gaps, but I personally feel that limiting the reliability of a large number of your spells is not a good idea.

As much as we would like to pack as many business spells and threats into the deck, I've always observed and believed that the main dependency of Dredge is on its Gold Lands (of course, Dredgers are a given), and it doesn't seem to be a good idea to weaken the base of our main dependency.

Kind Regards,
jares

[Final Fortune]

Yeah supporting your SB cards with only 12 lands seems really difficult. If only there would be a way to side in additional lands together with your SB hate, but I guess I'm living in magic christmas land here....



Haven't seem him since 2010, where I played him in my landstill SB, however there might be a chance that he'll see play in those UW Terminator decks ( though he doesn't look to hot together with Terminus).
But if he sees the daylight once more you are absolutly right.

SBing your Golden Lands in order to support your SB cards significatly reduces your ability to SB altogether, while cutting your 4th Putrid Imp and 12th Dredger for Golden Lands you expand your SB accordingly by moving your Golden Lands to your MD. That space is relevant when you're trying to fit in Chain of Vapor, additional recurring creatures, a DR package and the odd singletons like Ancient Grudge, Ray of Revelation etc. not to mention the frills of Firestorm or hate vs. other match ups.

Space is a serious concern in Dredge.

Edit: The reason I mentioned Peacekeeper is because I think it's going to make a comeback in response to Sneak Attack, also I think Darkblast is just pretty solid and has some additional utility to it like sending Narcomoebas to the grave etc.

[Gui]

12 Lands is really careless.

Really, cut two PImps and play two lands main. The PImps can go in the side, if people have the room for 3 Lands side they also have room for 2 PImps if the additional land are main. You'll mull a whole lot less hands. I promise. And judging by the fact that the only way this deck actually loses game 1 is through multiple mulligans or suboptimal hands, how could one argue against it?

In order to get the must busted hands you want Gold Land, discard outlet, Dredger, draw spell. Why would you go for a 8-16-12-16 ratio if you can easily make it 10-14-12-16? Doesn't make sense to me. I'm trying to find room for the 15th Land main right now. Getting flooded with 8 Lands in the deck and having 3 in play everytime is not what you should consider the rule. That should happen in maybe one game out of 20 (only a number I made up).


This analysis is correct, and I've came to the same conclusion via a lot of simulations. You will mulligan way less in this case.

Also, the same is valid for Dredger. Why do people insist to cut the 4th Thug before the 4th or 3rd PImp, or even the 4th or 3rd Breakthrough. Really, reducing mulligan nightmare is all this deck should be doing @g1.

[Izor]

Also, the same is valid for Dredger. Why do people insist to cut the 4th Thug before the 4th or 3rd PImp, or even the 4th or 3rd Breakthrough. Really, reducing mulligan nightmare is all this deck should be doing @g1.

This is true. However, the number of Dredgers your build needs also depends on your other card choices.

For example, having more permanent discard outlets lets you play less Dredgers because you're way less dependent on finding a second Dredger with the first one. Also, having more Careful Study effects in the deck might also be an argument for less Dredgers, because they can find you the first one in the top 2 cards of your library if used as a turn 1 discard outlet.

That said, I think LEDless builds with multiple Tireless Tribes as well as Faithless Lootings needs the fewest (I'd say 11 is enough). The usual LED builds should certainly run 12 if they can, because there is nothing more frustrating than losing with the Land-LED-Dredger-Breakthrough-hand because you didn't find a second Dredge card with the first one.

And then again, if you want to be on the safe side, running 13 isn't wrong. Though I feel that cards like additional Gold lands and all 8 Careful Studies are more important for the decks explosiveness.

[Final Fortune]

This analysis is correct, and I've came to the same conclusion via a lot of simulations. You will mulligan way less in this case.

Also, the same is valid for Dredger. Why do people insist to cut the 4th Thug before the 4th or 3rd PImp, or even the 4th or 3rd Breakthrough. Really, reducing mulligan nightmare is all this deck should be doing @g1.

I've tried playing PImpless and 2xPImp lists, the problem is Cephalid Coliseum becomes painfully inconsistent and you'll miss them post-board vs Tormod's Crypt - I usually have 7 permanent discard outlets between PImp and Tribe post-board -

Anybody else tried any number of Hapless Researchers?

Edit: I also think there's a bit of disynergy between removing PImps and adding lands, just because the PImps in your deck become more consistent with every land you add, and that's usually why you see a Dredger cut for a land before you see a PImp cut for one IMO.

[joemauer]

This analysis is correct, and I've came to the same conclusion via a lot of simulations. You will mulligan way less in this case.

Also, the same is valid for Dredger. Why do people insist to cut the 4th Thug before the 4th or 3rd PImp, or even the 4th or 3rd Breakthrough. Really, reducing mulligan nightmare is all this deck should be doing @g1.

I have been running 11 dredgers for awhile now. On rare occassion I do whiff on an all in breakthrough, but it's hard to say if one more dredger would even have mattered. Outside of that I don't miss the 12th dredger.

Putrid Imp is amazing. He is particularly wonderful game 2 & 3, you know the games I tend to be losing. He is functional enough where I won't be cutting him from my maindeck either.

I do agree with cutting breakthrough down to three. It is the worst draw spell to have in multiples and is dependent on having another discard outlet to be maximized.

Still not sure the best number of gold lands maindeck, 9 or 10. I keep going back and forth on this one.

[K1w1]

Haven't seem him since 2010, where I played him in my landstill SB, however there might be a chance that he'll see play in those UW Terminator decks ( though he doesn't look to hot together with Terminus).
But if he sees the daylight once more you are absolutly right.

That's the thing. In Bottrop there were 3 guys playing 2-3 Peacekeeper in the board.

[Felidae]

SBing your Golden Lands in order to support your SB cards significatly reduces your ability to SB altogether, while cutting your 4th Putrid Imp and 12th Dredger for Golden Lands you expand your SB accordingly by moving your Golden Lands to your MD. That space is relevant when you're trying to fit in Chain of Vapor, additional recurring creatures, a DR package and the odd singletons like Ancient Grudge, Ray of Revelation etc. not to mention the frills of Firestorm or hate vs. other match ups.

Space is a serious concern in Dredge.

Can't argue about that, however I don't consider Firestorm / a DR package to be relevant cards to have in my sideboard.

It all comes down to personal preference and the way you build your deck.



That's the thing. In Bottrop there were 3 guys playing 2-3 Peacekeeper in the board.

Really? Damn, guess that means we really have to bring back Darkblast, or simply win by turn 3. Playing Darkblast sounds like the better plan though.

[Michael Keller]

Can't argue about that, however I don't consider Firestorm / a DR package to be relevant cards to have in my sideboard.

It all comes down to personal preference and the way you build your deck.

Really? Damn, guess that means we really have to bring back Darkblast, or simply win by turn 3. Playing Darkblast sounds like the better plan though.

Or, you know, strip their hand and put the game out of reach for them.

Peacekeeper sees minimal play. Least of my worries.

[Kuma]

Also, doesn't Flayer of the Hatebound make a Peacekeeper irrelevant in multiple ways?

[HokusSchmokus]

Obv. it does. So what's your suggestion? Play a Flayer+DR board?Oo

Edit: Damn gotta think of sth new as my title thingy-.-

[Mindlash]

That is my exact main-board and sideboard...except I have the Firestorms and another Grudge in there. I'm still debating what to remove and put in their place, though.

I have a question regarding Hollywoods and iPhaels lists. Though I fully understand the choice of Ashen Ghoul over Nether Shadow in the Quadlaserlists due to their grindy/beatdown structure, I fail to understand why both of you use Ashen Ghoul over Nether Shadow in your more comboish Versions.

Are there Situation where the DR Package is boarded out and the Ashen Ghoul beatdown is needed?

Also your Decklists a light on lands after Boarding. 9 Goldlands and 2 Ghouls vs 11 Goldlands and 3 Ghouls in Quadlaser postboard.

How does it play out for you? And is Nether Shadow a serious consideration for you two?

Greetings and Thx in advance
Mindlash

[Tombstalker]

Edit: Damn gotta think of sth new as my title thingy-.-
How about (HokusSchmokus) "beer goggles wont focus..." haha sorry bro couldnt resist

[Michael Keller]

I have a question regarding Hollywoods and iPhaels lists. Though I fully understand the choice of Ashen Ghoul over Nether Shadow in the Quadlaserlists due to their grindy/beatdown structure, I fail to understand why both of you use Ashen Ghoul over Nether Shadow in your more comboish Versions.

Are there Situation where the DR Package is boarded out and the Ashen Ghoul beatdown is needed?

Also your Decklists a light on lands after Boarding. 9 Goldlands and 2 Ghouls vs 11 Goldlands and 3 Ghouls in Quadlaser postboard.

How does it play out for you? And is Nether Shadow a serious consideration for you two?

Greetings and Thx in advance
Mindlash

The way I figure it is at worst I can always feed Ashen Ghouls to Ichorids. It usually happens in games two and three where in some instances I play a little more conservative - just a little bit - and I'm able to get a few lands into play because I'm giving myself a little more time. In the match-ups where Ghoul would be necessary against Extraction, you can board in to another land.

Remember, my sideboard is shifting so although the Ghouls are in there now, there will probably be another gold land stuffed in there at some point.

Nether Shadow just doesn't do anything except feed Dread Returns. I know it beats for one, but realistically, you're bringing that in to improve access to your Dread Returns. Ashen Ghoul is in there as a faux-Ichorid, which is a completely different utility. I haven't really had any trouble with the thirteen lands as it stands, but I'm sure that at least one more gold land belongs in the board.

[iPhael]

I have a question regarding Hollywoods and iPhaels lists. Though I fully understand the choice of Ashen Ghoul over Nether Shadow in the Quadlaserlists due to their grindy/beatdown structure, I fail to understand why both of you use Ashen Ghoul over Nether Shadow in your more comboish Versions.

Are there Situation where the DR Package is boarded out and the Ashen Ghoul beatdown is needed?

Also your Decklists a light on lands after Boarding. 9 Goldlands and 2 Ghouls vs 11 Goldlands and 3 Ghouls in Quadlaser postboard.

How does it play out for you? And is Nether Shadow a serious consideration for you two?

Greetings and Thx in advance
Mindlash

Hollywood can probably answer this in more detail, but in short: As it was said earlier, the choice boils down to how many lands you play. With 8 gold lands and none in the board (ala Quadlazer), Nether Shadow is the correct choice. For me, 2 Ghoul is perfect because I really don't want to hit multiples as I can really only ever reliably return one a turn. His power is very relevant as well; as against grindy matches like stoneblade, that 3 power can make or break you. He also trades with Delvers, Mongeese, Hatebears, and Mystics, which can be helpful.

Edit: Beaten haha.

[Final Fortune]

Or, you know, strip their hand and put the game out of reach for them.

Peacekeeper sees minimal play. Least of my worries.

No point in being completely unprepared for Peacekeeper when all it requires is -1 Golgari Thug for +1 Darkblast, you can't always blow the opponent out of the game thru' Force of Will, Spell Pierce and Daze on the draw afterall.

@Nether Shadow

The problem with Nether Shadow is that it requires Dread Return, and Dread Return requires specialized targets, in order to be useful where Ashen Ghoul doesn't require Dread Return to beat down vs decks that disrupt you with more attrition based hate ala Tormod's Crypt and differentiates your threats vs Surgical Extraction without ever leaving any part of your deck useless to RFG i.e. Dread Return targets without Dread Returns or maybe Dread Return without Golgari Gravetroll.

[HokusSchmokus]

Hollywood can probably answer this in more detail, but in short: As it was said earlier, the choice boils down to how many lands you play. With 8 gold lands and none in the board (ala Quadlazer), Nether Shadow is the correct choice. For me, 2 Ghoul is perfect because I really don't want to hit multiples as I can really only ever reliably return one a turn. His power is very relevant as well; as against grindy matches like stoneblade, that 3 power can make or break you. He also trades with Delvers, Mongeese, Hatebears, and Mystics, which can be helpful.

Edit: Beaten haha.

Quadlaser has 3 lands in board.

[Michael Keller]

No point in being completely unprepared for Peacekeeper when all it requires is -1 Golgari Thug for +1 Darkblast, you can't always blow the opponent out of the game thru' Force of Will, Spell Pierce and Daze on the draw afterall.

@Nether Shadow

The problem with Nether Shadow is that it requires Dread Return, and Dread Return requires specialized targets, in order to be useful where Ashen Ghoul doesn't require Dread Return to beat down vs decks that disrupt you with more attrition based hate ala Tormod's Crypt and differentiates your threats vs Surgical Extraction without ever leaving any part of your deck useless to RFG i.e. Dread Return targets without Dread Returns or maybe Dread Return without Golgari Gravetroll.

Until I see Peacekeeper pop up in my local meta - which I haven't ever, come to think of it - I'm not wasting a sideboard slot for Darkblast.

[Final Fortune]

Until I see Peacekeeper pop up in my local meta - which I haven't ever, come to think of it - I'm not wasting a sideboard slot for Darkblast.

The difference between the Golgari Thug and the Darkblast is negligible in the MD, you don't have to spend a SB slot on it.

[joemauer]

The difference between the Golgari Thug and the Darkblast is negligible in the MD, you don't have to spend a SB slot on it.

Ichorid says you are wrong.

[chags]

The difference between the Golgari Thug and the Darkblast is negligible in the MD, you don't have to spend a SB slot on it.

Because fueling ichorid, especially in a list that cuts pimp, is never an issue...

@Hollywood: could you give an idea of some of your boarding? For example against rug do you attempt the Dr for fkz or do you bring in ghouls and play a slower game? Do you ever board out all your DR? Is fkz only the plan game one against noncombo decks or are there control or aggro decks that the fkz kill remains your plan a? Do you always board in some nature claims/vapors or are there some decks you don't care what hate they run? Thanks in advance and sorry for lots of Qs, just want to get some good Convo about sb plans going.

[Que]

General question to all:

What does your hand have to look like Game 2 in order for you to decide to keep it?
NOTE: Apply this to whatever Sideboard configuration you have of course.

[joemauer]

General question to all:

What does your hand have to look like Game 2 in order for you to decide to keep it?
NOTE: Apply this to whatever Sideboard configuration you have of course.

Depends on the matchup.

Some hands I would keep game 2/3 and not game 1 are ones that are land and draw effect heavy irregardless if it has dredgers or not.

[Final Fortune]

Ichorid says you are wrong.

Between 3 Ichorids, 4 Putrid Imp, 4 Stinkweed Imp and 2 Golgari Thug I haven't noticed a significant problem, I think you guys are failing to consider Dark Blasts role as a sacrifice outlet on Narcomoeba, creature removal vs Maverick and as a Dredger that can discard itself, the -1 Dredge and one less black creature for Ichorid is a fair trade for the utility and diversifies vs Surgical Extraction.

I don't really understand the impudence, Dark Blast isn't new tech and Peacekeeper is out there. Albeit in marginal numbers, there's no reason not to shore up a potential weakness in the deck with a marginal utility exchange between a 3rd Golgari Thug and 1 Dark Blast.

[Que]

Depends on the matchup.

Some hands I would keep game 2/3 and not game 1 are ones that are land and draw effect heavy irregardless if it has dredgers or not.

1. Maverick
2. Sneak and Show
3. RUG Delver/Canadian Thresh
4. StoneBlade
5. BUG Control/Tempo Variants

[joemauer]

1. Maverick
2. Sneak and Show
3. RUG Delver/Canadian Thresh
4. StoneBlade
5. BUG Control/Tempo Variants

Game 2:

1. Against Maverick you want a blistering fast hand, something with LED in it. This is a particularly nice way to win game 3's.
2. Something disrupt heavy, with Putrid Imp + Cabal Therapy(s). You ideally want a Claim/Chain because of LotV, or lots of card filter. If they don't start with LotV, then their hand is probably loaded with a quick Show and Tell with FoW backup.
3. This is the matchup I would keep a hand with lots of lands and draw effects. They can be fast with delver, but generally aren't. You want to render their wastelands and taxing counterspells useless. Depending on if they use extraction or crypt, affects how I play this one out.
4. Surgical Extraction is almost a given in this matchup. A hand with a Cabal Therapy and more gas than lands is ideal here.
5. I don't get to playtest this one much, but is generally an easier one unless they use Leyline of the Void.

[Michael Keller]

I don't really understand the impudence, Dark Blast isn't new tech and Peacekeeper is out there. Albeit in marginal numbers, there's no reason not to shore up a potential weakness in the deck with a marginal utility exchange between a 3rd Golgari Thug and 1 Dark Blast.

I'm sorry, but that makes no sense what so ever. A "marginal" weakness against Dredge isn't worth the time or critical design space to shore up a one or two of creature that sees little to no play. Dredge can win and should win before such a creature hits the table in even the most precarious situations by stripping it from an opponent's hand.

Either way, it's really a card that, unless you see enough of it, shouldn't be an issue for most Dredge players. I just fail to see what a singular Darkblast is going to realistically do in a match-up you already probably have a favorable win-percentage against anyhow (U/w/x, U/w). Darkblast is fine, but unless you're seeing Peacekeeper on a regular basis, it is not worth the space.


@Hollywood: could you give an idea of some of your boarding? For example against rug do you attempt the Dr for fkz or do you bring in ghouls and play a slower game? Do you ever board out all your DR? Is fkz only the plan game one against noncombo decks or are there control or aggro decks that the fkz kill remains your plan a? Do you always board in some nature claims/vapors or are there some decks you don't care what hate they run? Thanks in advance and sorry for lots of Qs, just want to get some good Convo about sb plans going.

My board right now is in a state of flux, with some configurations being considered (hopefully) for the GP. Against RUG, I bring in Ghouls and play a somewhat "grindier" strategy, but I still try and go for the knockout punch. I also board into Memory's Journey and Grudge in case of Crypt - which should see more play in RUG lists and has been recently. What you board out for those is entirely up to you, but I tend to shift the Breakthroughs and whatever else I feel is unnecessary to the board.

I have been toying with shifting DR to the board, but I'm not sure. I suppose it depends on the match-up.

[chags]

So Chris Anderson and Adam prosak both finished the invi in top 40 with dredge. They were running very similar lists, one difference being chranderson's use of flayer main. I've been testing with fkz but may give flayer a shot to free up the sb slot. Flayer still enables same turn wins but doesn't require the red zone like fkz does. Of course same turn kills with flayer are not nearly as easy I would imagine.

[K1w1]

They see me (t)rolling..

Local tourney, 18 players

4. out of 18

1:2 High Tide ( i missplayed, i had lethal, he had turn about, high tide, cunning wish and five lands, i took the wish and he topdecked time spiral... happens )
2:0 MUD
2:0 4c Goodstuff (paired up )
2:0 U/R Delver
2:0 Merfolk ( paired down )

4-1

I'm 4th due to my High Tide opponent dropped and i had a bad oppscore. Otherwise 2nd -.-

Played again Quadlaser + Ashen Ghoul board.
That's definitely the way i go. ( you should, too )

K1w1

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

Hi guys,

I played a few tournaments the last three weeks and this are the results:

Iserlohn: 7th out of 67 players (5-2-0)
GPT: 1st after swiss out of 28 players, lost in Top 8 (4-0-1/4-1-1)
Dülmen: 7th out of about 50 players (4-1-1)

It was the Quadlaser-list with Ashen Ghoul-SB I used. The overall-record with the deck since I played it first in April is 31-11-4, which is quite okay I think.

Actually I really haven't any issues that the deck pisses on me. Normally it works out really nice. My Mulligan-rate is also really low.

[Digital Devil]

Earned 3 byes by winning a GPT with non-LED Dredge (same list as post #976), went undefeated on the back of Memory's Journey!!! I faced Crypt, Relic, Ooze, Knight of the Reliquary, Surgical Extraction and Faerie Macabre and I'm pretty happy with my sideboard - also having Tireless Tribe rocks!!!

[Gui]

Earned 3 byes by winning a GPT with non-LED Dredge (same list as post #976), went undefeated on the back of Memory's Journey!!! I faced Crypt, Relic, Ooze, Knight of the Reliquary, Surgical Extraction and Faerie Macabre and I'm pretty happy with my sideboard - also having Tireless Tribe rocks!!!

Here. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23432-Deck-Dredge&p=647281&viewfull=1#post647281)

[Calado]

Earned 3 byes by winning a GPT with non-LED Dredge (same list as post #976), went undefeated on the back of Memory's Journey!!! I faced Crypt, Relic, Ooze, Knight of the Reliquary, Surgical Extraction and Faerie Macabre and I'm pretty happy with my sideboard - also having Tireless Tribe rocks!!!
I'm really glad to see this. Cheers!

[Mojeh]

Earned 3 byes by winning a GPT with non-LED Dredge (same list as post #976), went undefeated on the back of Memory's Journey!!! I faced Crypt, Relic, Ooze, Knight of the Reliquary, Surgical Extraction and Faerie Macabre and I'm pretty happy with my sideboard - also having Tireless Tribe rocks!!!

How was Firestorm for you?
Would you change the list?

Congratz!

[chags]

Earned 3 byes by winning a GPT with non-LED Dredge (same list as post #976), went undefeated on the back of Memory's Journey!!! I faced Crypt, Relic, Ooze, Knight of the Reliquary, Surgical Extraction and Faerie Macabre and I'm pretty happy with my sideboard - also having Tireless Tribe rocks!!!

How big was the tourney? What was the meta breakdown? Congrats.

[Digital Devil]

How big was the tourney? What was the meta breakdown.

It was a pretty small event (only 5 swiss rounds + the single elimination stage), so I guess it's nothing worth to be mentioned. The tournament had many different decks, and some of them were kinda weird choices - I saw Aggro Loam, Sneak/Show (with Griselbrand), UW Control, LED Dredge, Maverick, RUG, a couple of UR Delver, MUD (???) and other archetypes I don't remember. BTW, LED Dredge took the 2nd spot ;)


How was Firestorm for you?

I always loathed the card, but it's a nice-to-have answer, especially against Maverick. I faced a GW deck in the quarterfinals (the only time I brought in Firestorm) but in that particular case it wasn't a necessary tool, as I won 2-0 both times via Breakthrough. It is a good card, and I was close-minded while judging its potential. Have to read my posts just to laugh at myself.

P.S. - Thanks to you all, but my result pales when compared to Hollywood/Parcher/*insert username* performances =)

[Mojeh]

It's always nice pointing the quality of different lists, in this case LED x LEDless. Do you think LEDless had an edge against LED Dredge in this metagame, or you could have done the same result with LED?
I mean, you said Tribes were great, but have you missed LED's at any point?

[Calado]

It was a pretty small event (only 5 swiss rounds + the single elimination stage), so I guess it's nothing worth to be mentioned. The tournament had many different decks, and some of them were kinda weird choices - I saw Aggro Loam, Sneak/Show (with Griselbrand), UW Control, LED Dredge, Maverick, RUG, a couple of UR Delver, MUD (???) and other archetypes I don't remember. BTW, LED Dredge took the 2nd spot ;)
...
How was the match against Sneak Show? Did him use Leyline of the Void? Did you won rushing them or just by using Therapies?
Ty for the replies.

[rxavage]

So I dug out my old led-less deck and made the necessary changes and this is what I've put together.


4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
3 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomeoba
1 FKZ
2 Dread Return
4 LED
4 Bridge from Below
3 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Tanished Citadel
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum

SB
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 LotV
4 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Putrid Imp
1 Iona
2 Memories Journey


I'm still unsure about the sideboard but the main is basically the same as I used to play but added LEDs and Lootings.

[Michael Keller]

So I dug out my old led-less deck and made the necessary changes and this is what I've put together.


4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
3 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomeoba
1 FKZ
2 Dread Return
4 LED
4 Bridge from Below
3 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Tanished Citadel
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum

SB
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 LotV
4 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Putrid Imp
1 Iona
2 Memories Journey


I'm still unsure about the sideboard but the main is basically the same as I used to play but added LEDs and Lootings.

You really want to play Griselbrand, man. It's disgusting. (Assuming it survives in two days.)

[Vandalize]

@Hokus and K1W1

After messing arround with combo lists, I decided to once again run Quadlaser. And it's just awesome.

My current sideboard is:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Nature's Claim
3 Tarnished Citadel (this should be 2 Undiscovered Paradise +1 Tarnished)
3 Ashen Ghoul
1 Ancient Grudge

A good friend of mine (who hates Leyline of the Void) suggested this configuration:
4 Nature's Claim
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Ashen Ghoul
2 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation

Are they viable? What's your opinion on LotV at the moment?

[rxavage]

You really want to play Griselbrand, man. It's disgusting. (Assuming it survives in two days.)

Is he nasty in Dredge too? For serious? ATM I play mostly sneakshow, imo the best grislebrand deck, which I switched to from Reanimator which I switched to from Dredge. I'm assuming/hoping Gris will survive. How is he best played in the deck? Does he replace FKZ?




...What's your opinion on LotV at the moment?

Leyline can prevent your BfB from being blown up. And it gives you time to stomp all over Reanimator before they find an answer.

[Vandalize]

Is he nasty in Dredge too? For serious? ATM I play mostly sneakshow, imo the best grislebrand deck, which I switched to from Reanimator which I switched to from Dredge. I'm assuming/hoping Gris will survive. How is he best played in the deck? Does he replace FKZ?





Leyline can prevent your BfB from being blown up. And it gives you time to stomp all over Reanimator before they find an answer.

Eh, I know what Leyline of the Void does. I was asking if it's worth running in today's metagame.

@Griselbrand it won't get the hammer. WotC deslike banning creatures. And Sneak and Show is not dominating the metagame, despite being the Combo of choice for now. In my opinion, it's just like Hive Mind was a little while ago.

As for its use in Dredge, it's kinda fun with Flame-kin Zealot. As fun as Flayer of the Hatebound. But I still vote for Quadlasers for the current best build.

And I hope they unban Earthcraft, which would be really fun :}

[rxavage]

Eh, I know what Leyline of the Void does. I was asking if it's worth running in today's metagame.

@Griselbrand it won't get the hammer. WotC deslike banning creatures. And Sneak and Show is not dominating the metagame, despite being the Combo of choice for now. In my opinion, it's just like Hive Mind was a little while ago.

As for its use in Dredge, it's kinda fun with Flame-kin Zealot. As fun as Flayer of the Hatebound. But I still vote for Quadlasers for the current best build.

And I hope they unban Earthcraft, which would be really fun :}



I think its a good choice for the reasons I mentioned.



It's funny you mention Earthcraft as I just lost to an army of 6/6 squirrel tokens and the person piloting the deck thought the card would be too over-powered.

[iPhael]

I gotta say, I'm having an issue figuring out how to board LotV in the Mirror/Reanimator match. For one, you have to expect them to have it too, thus Nature's Claim. Two; You certainly want your own Leyline out as well.. 8 cards seems like an awful lot. As a general rule of thumb I start by cutting the Breakthroughs and go from there. Is LED the right cut after that? Or should we just try to go for a claim hand and explode out asap. I haven't really gotten an opportunity to test said matches and I'm just curious to see how you guys are boarding. Cutting dredgers never sits well with me, and the 8 studies also seem super necessary.

Mirror: Is Therapy even worth it here? Maybe on the play naming claim or something, but it seems pretty narrow. I know the sacrifice outlet is pretty important though... LED seems like the weakest link as it's really only good in your opening hand and you're already hunting for a claim, land, and leyline. :-/ Also, against non-Quad, is replacing FKZ with Iona viable? Naming black to shut down DR seems pretty clutch, as does flying. Here's what I've been trying while goldfishing:

-3 Breakthrough
-1 Cabal Therapy
-4 LED
+4 Leyline
+4 Claim

Reanimator: I'm sort of lost on this. Again with Iona on black to shut down reanimation spells? I'm assuming they run CoV, so it may be a moot point.

-3 Breakthrough
-4 LED (LED, Thug, or maybe even a Looting since your down a few LEDs?)
-1 Pimp
-1 Ichorid
+4 Leyline
+4 Claim (or 2x Ghoul 2x Journey depending if you suspect Surgical over LotV)
+1 Therapy

Like I said, I'm kind of lost on weather to just dump all 4 LED's or focus on "trimming the fat". The alternative, and something I'm seriously contemplating, is just going back to running singleton bullets for specific matchups. IE:

Iona, Elesh, Hypnotist, AoD, or maybe even Archon for Sneakyshow.

[K1w1]

@Hokus and K1W1

After messing arround with combo lists, I decided to once again run Quadlaser. And it's just awesome.

My current sideboard is:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Nature's Claim
3 Tarnished Citadel (this should be 2 Undiscovered Paradise +1 Tarnished)
3 Ashen Ghoul
1 Ancient Grudge

A good friend of mine (who hates Leyline of the Void) suggested this configuration:
4 Nature's Claim
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Ashen Ghoul
2 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation

Are they viable? What's your opinion on LotV at the moment?

Ofc is it awesome. ;)
Actually we are all playing 1 paradise and 2 citadel. You can also play 2 paradise and 1 citadel. But i think to have the chance to activate your cephalid coliseum turn 2 is better. So I/we decided to play only one paradise.
I'm thinking the same with LotV, but in every tourney i play there are some mirror matches or reanimator matches i have to play.
I recommend the first sideboard.

K1w1

[Digital Devil]

It's always nice pointing the quality of different lists, in this case LED x LEDless. Do you think LEDless had an edge against LED Dredge in this metagame, or you could have done the same result with LED?
I mean, you said Tribes were great, but have you missed LED's at any point?
The only time I ever missed LED was against Hive Mind two weeks ago (I played at a 38-men tournament, placed 3rd) - I had two lands and Tireless Tribe on the battlefield and my opponent played Pact of the Titan: if I had LED instead of Tribe I could've paid my opponent's card cost. I still won 2-1 due to Memory's Journey being awesome. I really like Tireless Tribe 'cause it's like an insurance: you can't whiff, and it's great against almost any kind of hate. You can even sculpt your hand while blocking, and then explode if needed. Against U/R Delver I even cast Dread Return targeting the Nomad (my opponent played Surgical Extraction targeting Golgari Grave-Troll and Bridge from Below and I had to block his Goblin Guide) and it made me win. As for the LED vs. non-LED question, I just like the smooth feeling of piloting the latter: I can't say it is strictly better.


How was the match against Sneak Show? Did him use Leyline of the Void? Did you won rushing them or just by using Therapies?
Ty for the replies.

In my previous post I actually listed the different decks I've seen, not those I won against. I faced (in no particular order) Maverick, Aggro Loam, U/R Delver, UW Control, Burn with Steppe Lynx, LED Dredge (twice) and accepted to intentionally draw a round (I was first so I thought it wouldn't be a problem). The GPT rule of letting the highest-ranked person choose the starting player was a good thing for me, as I always went first and always kept with discard outlet + dredger + Breakthrough/Coliseum. I was very lucky, indeed ;)

[Michael Keller]

You know, I was just trying some different configurations out the other day and I was goldfishing this sixty-card list which, to my surprise, was actually quite good:

// Lands
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
1 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise

// Creatures
3 [TO] Ichorid
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [AVR] Griselbrand
2 [FUT] Street Wraith
3 [TO] Putrid Imp

// Spells
2 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [OD] Careful Study
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [DKA] Faithless Looting
2 [TO] Breakthrough

What I was trying to go for here was the ability to smooth out the flow of being able to recur Ichorids while at the same time replacing a Breakthrough with more card draw. Over time, Breakthrough has kind of proven itself to be a card that works best on turn two (or turn one if you have the LED and want to go all in), which is fine and all but requires a setup to do so. The thing I've been liking about Street Wraith is that it still fills several key roles here without being overly 'cute.'

I've also been noticing a disturbing (and just as annoying) trend where I just can't recur Ichorids on a regular basis without holding my potentially single dredger hostage in my graveyard. I don't like that. I want to be able to have some backup so that in the event I need both an Ichorid and the ability to dredge, I can build that black creature count back up there.

I think this is a seriously overlooked aspect of LED variants right now and one that should be addressed. Three Ichorids in a deck with a minimum eleven to twelve black creatures is really not that great when you think about it and can create some potentially awkward circumstances with hands that do not have LED and a draw spell. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. But this list was doing really well in testing.

Of course, proper use of Street Wraith in conjunction with the stack is important as well. It's also good anti-hate for Extraction on a dredger.

[feline]

I do have to ask, howcome you don't just use 4 breakthrough, replace the 2 street wraith with 2 breakthrough? I myself was toying with how to squeeze in all faithless looting, careful study, cephalid colliseum, and breakthrough, and it came down to breakthrough and careful study on what i couldn't run 4 of, and between the 2, breakthrough is like faithless looting but cheaper, and still dredges for 4 total when everything is done, faithless looting does the same but its 2 and 2 at a total cost of 4 mana, cephalid colliseum obviously stays in because its mana & dredges 3 times, so it came down to going down on careful study, all in the argument on pushing breakthrough anyhow. >^,^<

[Michael Keller]

Because Breakthrough sucks when you don't have anything in the graveyard and you have no outlet to set it up. It's an all-in card that typically always gets shifted to the sideboard anyhow.

Between...

4 Coliseum
4 Looting
4 Flashback Looting (off lands or LED)
4 Study
2 Breakthrough
2 Street Wraith

...You're going to facilitate some broken situations. I don't know about you, but I think opening hands suck with Breakthrough, a land and nothing else to show for it on the play. It's dicey at best against a match-up like RUG where they will just counter the Breakthrough on your turn two once you go DDD, and even then, who's to say you'll hit another dredger?

Point being: Breakthrough is more of a liability in opening hands without an enabler. It usually always gets shipped. Street Wraith, however, fulfills multiple roles and still allows me to dredge at Instant speed. I love that. I also love being able to keep my Ichorid chain going, and the way this list has been going, it's has not been an issue anymore. I've been testing it incessantly for the last few days and I have to say so far it's tits.

Plus, check this out: You can use Street Wraith in a hand with no lands, an LED or two, a Looting, and a dredger. You just play out the LED(s), activate the Street Wraith, holding priority crack the LED for three red. Now you're drawing three as opposed to two in a hand that could potentially get shipped with no other action. And it still lets you dredge in the event you kept the hand and the draw spell gets Forced. The card changes the dynamic of the entire deck and fundamentally makes it, for all intents and purposes, better.

It smooths out the flow of chaining Ichorids (giving you a healthy sixteen black creature count), allows you to dredge whenever you want, helps smooth out hands like the aforementioned, is a solid draw off a natural draw with Looting or Study, can give you Threshold early on without any mana investment, protects your dredgers in your graveyard when a Crypt or Relic activation occurs and you have a draw spell in your hand, avoids interaction with an opponent, and grants you protection against Surgical Extraction on your dredgers.

To me, those are critical benefits this deck needs.

[Final Fortune]

I'm sorry, but that makes no sense what so ever. A "marginal" weakness against Dredge isn't worth the time or critical design space to shore up a one or two of creature that sees little to no play. Dredge can win and should win before such a creature hits the table in even the most precarious situations by stripping it from an opponent's hand.

Either way, it's really a card that, unless you see enough of it, shouldn't be an issue for most Dredge players. I just fail to see what a singular Darkblast is going to realistically do in a match-up you already probably have a favorable win-percentage against anyhow (U/w/x, U/w). Darkblast is fine, but unless you're seeing Peacekeeper on a regular basis, it is not worth the space.



My board right now is in a state of flux, with some configurations being considered (hopefully) for the GP. Against RUG, I bring in Ghouls and play a somewhat "grindier" strategy, but I still try and go for the knockout punch. I also board into Memory's Journey and Grudge in case of Crypt - which should see more play in RUG lists and has been recently. What you board out for those is entirely up to you, but I tend to shift the Breakthroughs and whatever else I feel is unnecessary to the board.

I have been toying with shifting DR to the board, but I'm not sure. I suppose it depends on the match-up.

What doesn't make sense, U/w Terminus is playing Peacekeeper against Sneak Attack and Reanimator and we can't always win before turn 3 or go off immediately thru' their counter suite on the draw. Considering 1 Darkblast and 1 Golgari Thug are functional replacements for each other in the MD, you can prepare for Peacekeeper by playing 1 Darkblast in the MD and save the SB slot. In addition to metagaming, Darkblast is just useful as a self discarding dredger, creature removal and sacrifice outlet which is a fair exchange to -1 black creature and -1 dredge IMO.

IDK about this trend of cutting Breakthrough, Street Wraith is pretty underpowered and you want a reasonable threshold of cards that can discard your entire hand. I don't think it really matters that we SB the card out the most, as long as it makes us broken and fast game 1 it pretty much does its job for the match.

[Michael Keller]

IDK about this trend of cutting Breakthrough, Street Wraith is pretty underpowered and you want a reasonable threshold of cards that can discard your entire hand. I don't think it really matters that we SB the card out the most, as long as it makes us broken and fast game 1 it pretty much does its job for the match.

Right, and the said can be said for the other nine million draw spells in the entire deck. The problem with Breakthrough is that it necessitates having to have either LED and a dredger turn one or a discard outlet turn one or two into casting it turn two. While it has the potential to be incredibly powerful and lets you see up to twelve more cards than any other draw spell in the entire deck, there is a loss of consistency that must be accounted for as you have to mulligan aggressively to find that nutty hand.

In short, Breakthrough really only works best under certain terms. Otherwise, you're looking at a hand with a land, dredger, and a Breakthrough - and that's just awkward against conditional counter-magic when you don't draw into a draw spell and have to go the DDD route - something you really don't want to do with LED Dredge that often.

Street Wraith patches up some serious holes in the deck's fundamental areas like recurring Ichorids, improving opening hands and drawing cards at critical times when you're tapped out. I am not necessarily advocating its use on the whole, but I am saying that from what I've seen after playing this deck for God knows how long is that I am beginning to hate Breakthrough and I blame it for creating even more consistency issues and aggressive mulligans than the deck already has.

I know it's the nature of the beast, and I'll probably shift back to more Breakthrough at some point, but testing this out can't hurt. Nothing is ever set in stone.

[Final Fortune]

Careful Study is the only draw spell that doesn't regularly piss me off for one reason or another, you just have to get over it and play with what you've got, because in combo decks a majority of the cards are conditionally bad by themselves.

[Felidae]

I really appreciate any new imput on the archetyp, but in this case I'm highly suspicious.


Because Breakthrough sucks when you don't have anything in the graveyard and you have no outlet to set it up. It's an all-in card that typically always gets shifted to the sideboard anyhow.

Lets start right here:
Unless you don't have some sort of enabler Street Wraith doesn't help you in this scenario either ( if we discard for a moment that Street Wraith could draw us into an enabler).

Breakthrough is def. the worst spell for G2 and will usually be cut to a certain extend for g2 in a lot of matchups, however there are also a good amount of matchups where you'll need it ( DDft, ANT, TES, Maverick ( considering that we don't sideboard against them and just try to outrace Ooze / KotR / GSZ), etc.).

Oh and guess what card you'll touch once you sided those 2 Breakthroughs and still need room for other stuff. You won't touch any of the good drawspells I can ensure you.


...You're going to facilitate some broken situations. I don't know about you, but I think opening hands suck with Breakthrough, a land and nothing else to show for it on the play. It's dicey at best against a match-up like RUG where they will just counter the Breakthrough on your turn two once you go DDD, and even then, who's to say you'll hit another dredger?

Basicly the same as above:
While you could go for DDD and then draw with Street Wraith at instant speed, but without any other stuff to back this up... yeah doesn't look to hot ( although Street Wraith is certainly better in this scenario, I'll give you that).

And using Breakthrough as a turn 1 discardoutlet isn't the worst thing you can do ( if you mulligan into oblivion).


Plus, check this out:[...]
So you basicly use him like any other drawspell that is paired with LED turn 1? Impressiv.
Yeah I get the point that he can't be counterd and that he can be used with LED even without lands, but how high are the chances that you keep a hand without a land ( 12-14), but with a LED ( 4) and a Street Wraith ( 2) ?

As far as the Ichorid chain goes: I can see the benefits he provides here, however I'd rather try to cut the 4th Breakthrough for the 4th Thug / PImp, giving you a count of 15 black creatures, along with the "better" drawspell and another enabler /dredger.

Street Wraith can be used to fuel an Ichroid, yet a resolved Breakthrough will def. provide you with enough fuel for him for a couple of turns.


[...] protects your dredgers in your graveyard when a Crypt or Relic activation occurs [...]

Unless your opponents don't know how to handle their hate ( and lets face it: we steamroll those people 99% of the time) I don't see many scenarios where Street Wraith really helps ( I mean: how often to we go for DDD and then suddenly get suprised by a Relic from our opponent nowadays).


[...]protection against Surgical Extraction on your dredgers.
Can't argue against that.


So far you have only goldfished the list and I'm really looking forward for actual tournament results to see if they are worth the slots.

Again: Don't get me wrong, I really like new ideas in order to keep the deck fresh and fun ( I'm going to play Manaless Dredge for the first time tomorrow, hope it will be a ton of fun :cool:), but this idea reminds me alot of Tortured Existence.
You brought it up, people discussed a couple of pages about it and now no one plays it anymore.

[Michael Keller]

I would keep a hand that looked like this in a heartbeat:

LED
LED
Street Wraith
Faithless Looting
Golgari Grave-Troll
Golgari Thug
Careful Study

No question. That's an incredibly powerful turn one play that can open the door to some seriously broken shit, especially if you're on the play. It's a far more attractive hand than replacing the Street Wraith with Breakthrough in that scenario.


Breakthrough is def. the worst spell for G2 and will usually be cut to a certain extend for g2 in a lot of matchups, however there are also a good amount of matchups where you'll need it ( DDft, ANT, TES, Maverick ( considering that we don't sideboard against them and just try to outrace Ooze / KotR / GSZ), etc.).

Street Wraith can be used for free at any time. That means if your turn one play is Careful Study, draw a Street Wraith and discard some dredgers, you're getting more action for free immediately - and will be able to feed a potentially dredged Ichorid in the event one is binned off the 'Wraith activation-into-dredge. I'm simply saying that the issue with Ichorid is generally in the slower games being far more relevant when you need to have black creatures other than your dredgers to recur them into play.

I am not totally cutting Breakthrough. I still run two in there.


And using Breakthrough as a turn 1 discardoutlet isn't the worst thing you can do ( if you mulligan into oblivion).

Assuming you absolutely find yourself mulling into oblivion, casting Breakthrough is fine. I even defeated A.J. Sacher under the exact same set of circumstances at the Open in D.C. earlier this year, where I mulled low and just went all-in on a Breakthrough. It paid off, but the fact is under most circumstances you're wanting a draw spell or discard outlet instead of Breakthrough - which should get boarded out in the appropriate match-ups.

I am not running the Quadlazer list, for reference. I think you have that confused with the traditional LED Dredge that I opt to run. The lists are comparable in a general sense but quantity is what the Quadlazer list is highly predicated on, maxing out on four-of's all across the board.

I'll be playing this list tomorrow at the local. Updates then.

[joemauer]

Haters gonna hate.

Breakthrough is the worst draw spell we have. With eight study effects you don't need to max out on it.

Breakthrough is much worst in multiples than any other card we want to hardcast.

I would personally run 3 as that number has been working for me, but the street wraith split seems worth a try.

Here is the biggest advantage of Street Wraith: He is better in games 2 & 3 than breakthrough. Why is that a big deal? Games 2 & 3 are the ones we tend to lose or perhaps it is just me. So improving the maindeck for games 2 & 3 without sacrificing too much explosive power the needs on game 1's seems like a very solid deckbuilding technique.

Everything Hollywood said about Breakthrough is correct as well.

[iPhael]

+1 on the Breakthrough and Street Wraith discussion. Recurring Ichorid has definitely been an issue for me as well, and the fact that Wraith is basically an uncounterable dredge spell helps with 2 serious issues. (Being food and being an out to countermagic)

Breakthrough is generally the first to cut when we board, which should say something all by itself. Sure it can do ridiculously broken shit on t1, but the entire deck itself feels pretty broken enough. So why not take the most conditional spell we have and replace it with something hyper efficient?

I for one will definitely be testing this out tomorrow as well. Great tech.

[Michael Keller]

The only thing I cut for the two Street Wraith was a Breakthrough and FKZ, to improve consistency a tad. There are so many directions the deck can go but to be honest I just got sick and tired of opening hands with Breakthrough and really nothing else and shipping it away. Strategically speaking, SW is better in most circumstances and still offers so much more. It's kind of like a carpenter in the sense that it is able to work around and strengthen the fabric of the deck in a multitude of ways.

I just really think (as I had previously stated) that being able to chain Ichorids is something overlooked and taken for granted. We have been plowing draw spells and all sorts of other cards up the deck's ass but have neglected to take into consideration that one of the primary functions of the entire archetype is to recur Ichorids successively and avoid as much interaction as possible. SW fills that role quite well.

Breakthrough, while still potent, is more conditional and requires a setup to be ultimately effective. With all this said, however, I would still never go below two. That card should always stay in this archetype for the raw power it provides no matter how many you opt to run.

[Vandalize]

So improving the maindeck for games 2 & 3 without sacrificing too much explosive power the needs on game 1's seems like a very solid deckbuilding technique.

Yeah, improving maindeck for games 2 & 3 seems fine when you DON'T HAVE A SIDEBOARD. Improving maindeck is mainly to fight G1. If you have trouble G2 & 3, just sideboard for it.

I'm not advocating against Street Wraith, I just think it's sideboard material at best.

[Mojeh]

The discussion Breakthrough x Street Wraith leads us to that old story about raw power x consistency. I mean, this has always been a dichotomy (LED x LEDless, Quadlazer x Combo-esque builds, or simply Targets main x no targets/ no DR). The Wraith tech seems cute in some corner cases, and also improves consistency, but can we afford losing raw power in G1's?
Sometimes isn't just better to go all-in in the first game, and then work on resiliency and move out the focus from speed in G2/G3's? I don't know about you guys, but I think is a bit risky taking the chance of losing game 1... isn't that one of the main reasons to play LED after all? I don't see any problem with siding out Breakthrough every single game, as I don't see any problem siding in lands too, for example... and this doesn't make me want to play 15 lands MD and 0 Breakthrough.

[Izor]

People are really underrating Breakthrough. I've said that a hundred times, yet I know that people would cut it first from the deck.

It is way more broken than LED in this deck. Seriously. It makes no sense to run LEDs (which are boarded out very often as well), but then cut BTs because you want to have it easier when sideboarding.

A list with 4 LED but zero BT is significantly slower than a list with zero LED, but 4 BT (go ahead and test it if you don't believe it). Breakthrough's potential speed bump is stronger than LED's. Today's metagame is incredibly fast and I would not want to miss out in a single BT in it.


Breakthrough is more of a liability in opening hands without an enabler. It usually always gets shipped. Street Wraith, however, fulfills multiple roles and still allows me to dredge at Instant speed. I love that

Sorry but this logic is flawed. You argument that BT is bad without an enabler. But SW is good then? What do you want to do, turn 1 Street Wraith to draw a card? SW is just as useless as an enabler. In fact, BT is even pretty insane by itself against decks without countermagic. Just X=1 it on turn two and crush people on turn three. I'll keep something like 2 Lands, C.Coliseum, Breakthrough all day long if I know they can't counter anything and that hand is typically pretty busted. What does 2 Lands, CC and SW do for you? BT is not a liability for me, I'm always happy to have it in my opening hand.

[Michael Keller]

People are really underrating Breakthrough. I've said that a hundred times, yet I know that people would cut it first from the deck.

People cut it first from their decks against the appropriate match-ups because they don't want to straight-up lose to decks potentially running Leyline of the Void or Grafdigger's Cage. Sideboarded cards are specifically brought in to fight hate. What good is using anti-hate when you have no hand to use it from? Not so good.

Going all-in with Breakthrough is treacherous at best in game two against a well-prepared, intelligent opponent who has a well-prepared sideboard. Breakthrough forces you to go all-in in almost all circumstances, which is not good when you consider you're just begging for a blowout.


It is way more broken than LED in this deck. Seriously. It makes no sense to run LEDs (which are boarded out very often as well), but then cut BTs because you want to have it easier when sideboarding.

No, it really isn't. LED is the card that enables Breakthrough and the other draw spells to actually be good in the deck. It also acts a discard outlet and turns on your draw spells into the nuts. Breakthrough can't do that on its own unless a series of circumstances allow it to actually occur.

LED is just straight-up better for being multilateral and enabling circumstances doubly in your favor, which is far better than a conditional draw spell that requires setup - especially in game two. And I don't know who you're generalizing as people that board out LED "very often as well," because from where I sit that card never leaves my deck under any circumstances what so ever. The sole case might be against a deck like Pox where they have the ability to run a metric fuck-ton of hate, but that's the least of my worries.


A list with 4 LED but zero BT is significantly slower than a list with zero LED, but 4 BT (go ahead and test it if you don't believe it). Breakthrough's potential speed bump is stronger than LED's. Today's metagame is incredibly fast and I would not want to miss out in a single BT in it.

I have tested it on numerous occasions, but where your logic is flawed is that you're comparing apples to oranges and two completely different versions of Dredge, so that point is moot.


Sorry but this logic is flawed. You argument that BT is bad without an enabler. But SW is good then? What do you want to do, turn 1 Street Wraith to draw a card? SW is just as useless as an enabler. In fact, BT is even pretty insane by itself against decks without countermagic. Just X=1 it on turn two and crush people on turn three. I'll keep something like 2 Lands, C.Coliseum, Breakthrough all day long if I know they can't counter anything and that hand is typically pretty busted. What does 2 Lands, CC and SW do for you? BT is not a liability for me, I'm always happy to have it in my opening hand.

That logic is not flawed, believe me when I tell you. Street Wraith acts in a completely separate manner than Breakthrough, so again - stop comparing the two on a basic, fundamental level. Street Wraith is purposefully included to smooth out situations where you want to dredge immediately without access to lands and allows you to get Ichorid into play in most circumstances a turn faster.

I have already explained why I feel the card is useful, and to be honest I don't feel like doing it again. If you think for one second I purposefully included Street Wraith to cantrip, you're sadly mistaken.

You're pointing out circumstances where Breakthrough would be better than Street Wraith. What you fail to realize is that I do run Breakthrough still in my deck in addition to shoring up some awful opening hands with Street Wraith and giving me the ability to transcend a variety of circumstances - like bringing Ichorids back into play turn two without LED or Imp or dredging as soon as you dump a dredger off Imp or a draw spell turn one - into some really powerful starts.

At their core, they are two completely separate cards used for two completely separate reasons. I choose to run Street Wraith because it smooths out areas in the deck that are inherently flawed - much like my "logic."

[Felidae]

I would keep a hand that looked like this in a heartbeat:

LED
LED
Street Wraith
Faithless Looting
Golgari Grave-Troll
Golgari Thug
Careful Study

Everyone would keep such a hand and if Street Wraith would be a Breakthrough in this instance there would be room to argue whether or not to mulligan this hand.
But as I said earlyer: You are running 13 lands and 2 Street Wraiths: Chances are that your oppening hand contains a land and not a Wraith.


[...] but the fact is under most circumstances you're wanting a draw spell or discard outlet instead of Breakthrough - which should get boarded out in the appropriate match-ups.

Considering your old list: Wouldn't it make more sense to cut the FKZ for the 4th PImp ( being a discard outlet + fuel for Ichorid).
And most likely you also want those spells ( either draw spell or dsicard outled) in any Street Wraith scenario where you don't go for the DDD route.




I am not running the Quadlazer list, for reference.
C'mon you posted the list on the same page, how could I have missed that?


I'll be playing this list tomorrow at the local. Updates then.

Good luck, lets cast the discussion to the side until you get actual tournament results.

[Digital Devil]

A list with 4 LED but zero BT is significantly slower than a list with zero LED, but 4 BT (go ahead and test it if you don't believe it).
This. Last time I won against LED Dredge with my non-LED build was because I had post-board Breakthrough while he didn't.

[Parcher]

I haven't tried Street Wraith in about 5 years, so I don't really know what good it might do. I will say that I won't play less than 3 Breakthrough, and am actively trying to find room for the fourth. For two reasons.

First, Combo. Specifically Storm Combo, but also Reanimator. Both have little to no hate, with maybe a pair of Extractions, and both are faster than Dredge. Reanimator is definitely unfavorable, and Storm goes from slightly unfavorable,(TES) to even, depending on which build. There is no single card that gives the speed that Breakthrough does. And none of these decks have the hate or countermagic to punish you for using it.

The second is Maverick. I think most agree by now that the plan for post-SB games is to "not" board against them. With Maverick now running Knight for Bog, Thalia, Ooze, Plow, Crop Rotation for Bog/Karakas, and sometimes ETutor for hate, or a couple of Crypts or Extractions, trying to SB effectively would be futile. They have no stack disruption, and are far slower, so the plan is to go over the top before they can get their hate online. The chance of them opening their one Crypt is not worth playing around. Again, nothing does this better than Breakthrough. Especially if they have Thalia, and you lose your opportunity to chain multiple draw spells. Dredging three times total on turn two is often not enough against Maverick, especially on the draw. Just like against Combo, I want to have the most chances to hit as hard as I can, as early as I can.

[Michael Keller]

This. Last time I won against LED Dredge with my non-LED build was because I had post-board Breakthrough while he didn't.

I am not sure what LED list you were running against that did not have Breakthrough, but that is a mistake predicated on deck-building anyhow. I run Breakthrough in my list, and I'm sure the person who you were playing against could have potentially had a seriously more broken turn one than you with land, LED, Breakthrough, dredger.

I would like to say again that I am not against cutting Breakthrough from the list, but I feel that four - at least - is a bit much game two when you need to be prepared in certain match-ups for blowout scenarios not in your favor. My list hasn't changed - I am experimenting with new ideas that challenge and push the limits of what is widely considered the accepted "norm" for this archetype so that new configurations can emerge.

[Vandalize]

I think that Street Wraith has really marginal utilities GAME 1. Dredging in your opponent's turn to find some Narcomoeba for blocking, or maybe some Ichorid.

Fuel for Ichorid isn't really a concern if you're playing three copies main deck. Don't forget you can pitch the beloved Griselbrand for it too.

In games 2 and 3, Street Wraith can protect your dredgers from Surgical Extraction. But in games 2 and 3 you might have better answers in your sideboard, as well. I would personally play it in the place of Purify the Grave/Coffin Purge (if anyone still runs that).

[Izor]

People cut it first from their decks against the appropriate match-ups because they don't want to straight-up lose to decks potentially running Leyline of the Void or Grafdigger's Cage. Sideboarded cards are specifically brought in to fight hate. What good is using anti-hate when you have no hand to use it from? Not so good.

Why are you siding out BT against Leyline/cage decks? That's a mistake. You board them out against artifact-based hate, which is exactly when you should board LEDs out as well. LED and BT have EXACTLY the same drawback that make people board them out against that type of hate. Only that LED fulfills a double role while BT just makes you twice as fast, which is why I'll agree that BT is often boarded out before LED. Then again, I never board all BT out against Leyline and stuff, why would I? Your best chance of winning those matchups is if you can hypercombo-finish them after destroying the Leyline.


Going all-in with Breakthrough is treacherous at best in game two against a well-prepared, intelligent opponent who has a well-prepared sideboard. Breakthrough forces you to go all-in in almost all circumstances, which is not good when you consider you're just begging for a blowout.

Replace Breakthrough with LED in your statement and it's just as true. Same argument as above.


No, it really isn't. LED is the card that enables Breakthrough and the other draw spells to actually be good in the deck. It also acts a discard outlet and turns on your draw spells into the nuts. Breakthrough can't do that on its own unless a series of circumstances allow it to actually occur.

I fully agree with the first part, I'd never argue against that. Let me just mention that our whole deck is built to make that series of circumstances work (and LED is an integral part of it), so I don't think why you talk about that as if playing BT to its strength could happen only 1 game out of 10 and only if your opponent screws up.


LED is just straight-up better for being multilateral and enabling circumstances doubly in your favor, which is far better than a conditional draw spell that requires setup - especially in game two. And I don't know who you're generalizing as people that board out LED "very often as well," because from where I sit that card never leaves my deck under any circumstances what so ever. The sole case might be against a deck like Pox where they have the ability to run a metric fuck-ton of hate, but that's the least of my worries.

Although I strongly oppose to the word 'strictly' here (You have two lands, a Dredger and X where X can be LED or BT; What's better?), Iagree that LED fulfills that double-role in the deck. I am the first to say that double roles are what makes the cards in this deck so good. BT also fulfils a double role. It is absolutely insane in one of those functios, and only an emergency solution in the other function. Still very very good.

And sorry, but keeping in 4 LED against RUG Delver with 4 Crypts is just plain wrong.


I have tested it on numerous occasions, but where your logic is flawed is that you're comparing apples to oranges and two completely different versions of Dredge, so that point is moot.

It is not moot. have you ever said something like: Dredge is faster than Lands.dec? If you did, you violated your Apple-Orange rule yourself. We're plaing this game with a million of decks viale. And no matter how different decks are, Speed is a variable on the basis of which we can compare any deck in the game. I don't know why two Dredge lists (where only like 6 cards are different) can't be compared to each other. Dredge IS faster than Lands.dec and although the speed difference is not as huge, LEDless BT Dredge is faster than LED BTless, juding from average win turns.


That logic is not flawed, believe me when I tell you. Street Wraith acts in a completely separate manner than Breakthrough, so again - stop comparing the two on a basic, fundamental level. Street Wraith is purposefully included to smooth out situations where you want to dredge immediately without access to lands and allows you to get Ichorid into play in most circumstances a turn faster.

I fully agree that Breakthrough and SW don't fulfil the very same role in the deck and that it's hard to compare them. I just prefer a spell that outright wins me the game if it resolves over an uncounterable way to get an ichorid into play one turn earlier.

The reason I said your argument was flawed is that you put forward that BT is useless without an enabler. And that argument didn't make any sense there because SW needs the exact same amount of setup. With the only difference that BT can actually do the setup itself in some situations, while SW can't.


I have already explained why I feel the card is useful, and to be honest I don't feel like doing it again. If you think for one second I purposefully included Street Wraith to cantrip, you're sadly mistaken.

You're pointing out circumstances where Breakthrough would be better than Street Wraith. What you fail to realize is that I do run Breakthrough still in my deck in addition to shoring up some awful opening hands with Street Wraith and giving me the ability to transcend a variety of circumstances - like bringing Ichorids back into play turn two without LED or Imp or dredging as soon as you dump a dredger off Imp or a draw spell turn one - into some really powerful starts.

At their core, they are two completely separate cards used for two completely separate reasons. I choose to run Street Wraith because it smooths out areas in the deck that are inherently flawed - much like my "logic."

Okay. We'll just have to respectfully disagree with each other, which is no problem in my eyes. Different people different choices, I just wanted to explain some of my words from above.

And I'll still watch out for your testing results with SW, I'm always willing to be proven wrong.

[Michael Keller]

I didn't have a chance to play the experimental list yesterday. However, I am attending a very large tournament this weekend in Maryland. I'd be interested in seeing what sort of Quadlazer lists people have been running to success.

[joemauer]

I didn't have a chance to play the experimental list yesterday. However, I am attending a very large tournament this weekend in Maryland. I'd be interested in seeing what sort of Quadlazer lists people have been running to success.

Dig up k1w1's posts. He seems to be doing well with the quadlazer.

[Woe]

Ive been following this thread and taking the variations to my playtesting group for about a month. I think Hollywood has really pointed out the strongest version of the deck. Street wraith has taken my game one wins to a significantly higher percentage. From coinflip to about 65% from exactly 100 games tested. Not enough for real statistics but a strong indicator it's a welcome change. I was about to shelve Dredge for the scg legacy open in Seattle because sneak/show and Reanimator felt like a coin flip game one. Playing dredge imo is about taking G1 and fighting through hate with tight play games 2 and 3. Street wraith adds a time walk (immediate dredge) instead of casting pimp or draw effect and passing. I lead with LED (if I have) and draw a counter, either fow or spell pierce if they are on the play, then can go in with pimp/wraith or draw effect into wraith. I don't play Griselbrand main because of handing reanimator g1 wins via reanimate etc. I Just wanted to say thanks to everyone's insight and if someone follows the thread and takes everyone's opinion seriously the deck just begins to reveal itself in another light. I'm playing a close to quadlazer maindeck and DR target sideboard. The thing I love about street wraith is the degenerate T1's it promotes. If it's not in your opening grip it's also so much nicer to flip into the yard. It's always doing it's job. I've gone up to four ichorids as reanimating multiples has been a lot easier as well. I will most likely end up cutting a putrid imp or the fourth ichorid for my 12th Dredger. It feels like a different deck with just a few changes. I love this deck. Thanks again everyone.

Land
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone mine
4 City of Brass
1 Undiscovered paradise

Dredge
4 Golgari Grave-troll
4 stinkweed imp
3 Golgari thug (testing, could be 4th thug -1 ichorid)

Draw
2 street wraith
2 Breakthrough
4 careful study
4 faithless looting

Discard:
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Putrid Imp

Business:
4 Ichorid (as stated above could be -1 for 12th Dredge)
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
4 Narcomoeba

SB: I'm still not sure if I need FKZ/Griselolnotbanned as it's powerful but I feel usually unnecessary.
3 Natures Claim
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Memory's Journey
2 Ashen Ghoul
1 Dread Return
1 Angel of Despair
1 Blazing Archon
1 Elesh Norn, Chancellor of the annex
1 Flayer of the hatebound
1 Tarnished Citadel

[Mindlash]

I didn't have a chance to play the experimental list yesterday. However, I am attending a very large tournament this weekend in Maryland. I'd be interested in seeing what sort of Quadlazer lists people have been running to success.

Kiwi and Brot have postet some tournament results. Both with the Quadlaserlist from the startingpost + Ashen Ghoul Board.

I can also remember Brot posting a Top 8 from a pretty large tournament with the board from the startingpost, which was suceeded by the Ashen Ghoul Board to fight surgical more efficiently.

TLDR: Maindeck is still the same. Board shiftet to:
- 4 LotV
- 4 Claims
- 3 Ghouls
- 2 Citadels
- 1 Paradise
- 1 Grudge

ps: Some squeeze two more lands into the Maindeck, but I have no idea how they are doing tournamentwise.

Greetings Mindlash

[K1w1]

Just play the quadlaser + Ashen Ghoul board and win this tourney.
I'm also at a GPT again tomorrow and i will play the list again.
I will show you my results.

K1w1

[HokusSchmokus]

Kiwi and Brot have postet some tournament results. Both with the Quadlaserlist from the startingpost + Ashen Ghoul Board.

I can also remember Brot posting a Top 8 from a pretty large tournament with the board from the startingpost, which was suceeded by the Ashen Ghoul Board to fight surgical more efficiently.

TLDR: Maindeck is still the same. Board shiftet to:
- 4 LotV
- 4 Claims
- 3 Ghouls
- 2 Citadels
- 1 Paradise
- 1 Grudge

ps: Some squeeze two more lands into the Maindeck, but I have no idea how they are doing tournamentwise.

Greetings Mindlash

I Top4ed a GPT, too with the same list. Adding lands weakens the list imo.

[Mindlash]

I Top4ed a GPT, too with the same list. Adding lands weakens the list imo.

I don't like to cut any of the other Cards either. I tried to cut 1 Ichorid and 1 Thug, but it did not change anything for me.

Went back to 15 Playsets now. I use 1 Ichorid and 1 Thug in another language to keep track of the "what if these two were lands scenario". Can't remember any Starting 7 where it would have mattered. But there where games I won with this Ichorid who is not a land :)

Edit: Anyone else sad, that this baby isn't cmc1?

Wild Guess
RR
Sorcery
As an additional cost to cast Wild Guess, discard a card.
Draw two cards.

Need something like this for cmc1 or Study 9-12 next expansion plz :D

[Izor]

Yeah, make it one less mana and discard two as a cost instead.

Won't ever happen. Thankfully.

[Mojeh]

@Quadlazer + Ashen Ghoul SB:
How are you guys dealing with RUG delver + Tormod?
I've been thinking about adding some TTribes in the sideboard in order to fight artifact-based hate, something like this:

-1 Land (is 15 really needed?)
-1 Ashen Ghoul
-1 Ancient Grudge

+ 3 Tireless Tribe

Thoughts?

[Vandalize]

@Quadlazer + Ashen Ghoul SB:
How are you guys dealing with RUG delver + Tormod?
I've been thinking about adding some TTribes in the sideboard in order to fight artifact-based hate, something like this:

-1 Land (is 15 really needed?)
-1 Ashen Ghoul
-1 Ancient Grudge

+ 3 Tireless Tribe

Thoughts?

If they drop an early Crypt, try to grind out. They tend to mulligan for it (a.k.a keeping slower hands).

If they begin aggresively with no hate, therapy to clear the path and win.

If they drop Delver + Crypt turn 1, you just cry.

[Mojeh]

If they drop an early Crypt, try to grind out. They tend to mulligan for it (a.k.a keeping slower hands).

If they begin aggresively with no hate, therapy to clear the path and win.

If they drop Delver + Crypt turn 1, you just cry.

That's what I usually do, but sometimes they can race me even without Delver... Goyf and Mongoose plus Crypt can be really dangerous. Also, Goyf is a huge blocker for my Ichorids. That's why I was trying to fit Tribes, but I don't know if they are worth the slots.

[Final Fortune]

@Quadlazer + Ashen Ghoul SB:
How are you guys dealing with RUG delver + Tormod?
I've been thinking about adding some TTribes in the sideboard in order to fight artifact-based hate, something like this:

-1 Land (is 15 really needed?)
-1 Ashen Ghoul
-1 Ancient Grudge

+ 3 Tireless Tribe

Thoughts?

You want 11 land post-board, it's better to run 11 Dredgers and 9 Golden Lands MD and 3 Tireless Tribes, 3 Ashen Ghouls and 2 Golden Lands SB fwiw.

If you need a solid "grinder" build,

MD

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tarnished Citadel

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast

4 Breakthrough
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study

4 Putrid Imp
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

3 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below

4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return

SB
2 Tarnished Citadel
3 Tireless Tribe
3 Ashen Ghoul
4 Chain of Vapor
1 Dread Return
1 Griselbrand
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite (other than 4x Leyline of the Void, a Dread Return package that eliminates and locks the other players board position down is the best way to win the Dredge mirror match and still give the deck some more options vs Surgical Extraction).

[K1w1]

@Quadlazer + Ashen Ghoul SB:
How are you guys dealing with RUG delver + Tormod?
I've been thinking about adding some TTribes in the sideboard in order to fight artifact-based hate, something like this:

-1 Land (is 15 really needed?)
-1 Ashen Ghoul
-1 Ancient Grudge

+ 3 Tireless Tribe

Thoughts?

We let it happen.
You still win with activated Crypt.

Btw...
Went to a GPT with quadlaser + Ashen Ghoul board:

2:0 mono black Shadow (?)
1:2 BUG Still
2:0 Infect (?)
2:1 Esper Stoneblade
2:1 Storm
ID into Top 8

Top8:
2:0 Reanimator
Top4:
2:1 BUG Control
Finals:
1:2 Painter

No Byes for me -.-
But again 4-1-1

[Vandalize]

We let it happen.
You still win with activated Crypt.

Btw...
Went to a GPT with quadlaser + Ashen Ghoul board:

2:0 mono black Shadow (?)
1:2 BUG Still
2:0 Infect (?)
2:1 Esper Stoneblade
2:1 Storm
ID into Top 8

Top8:
2:0 Reanimator
Top4:
2:1 BUG Control
Finals:
1:2 Painter

No Byes for me -.-
But again 4-1-1

Seems like 4-1-1 is the ultimate tournament result for K1W1 :D

Geez, Quadlaser is so damn hawt. It's by far the best Dredge list I've played in a LED shell.

[K1w1]

Seems like 4-1-1 is the ultimate tournament result for K1W1 :D

Geez, Quadlaser is so damn hawt. It's by far the best Dredge list I've played in a LED shell.

That's true. :laugh:

Even if i lose a game, i think it's the best list like you said.

As long as i can make it into Top 8 it's fine.

K1w1

[iPhael]

That's true. :laugh:

Even if i lose a game, i think it's the best list like you said.

As long as i can make it into Top 8 it's fine.

K1w1

Out of curiosity, how did you board for reanimator? Also, do ya think -1 Thug +1 Darkblast is reasonable insurance? I've been relying on DR less and less it seems, so I may be testing this for Seattle.

GZ on the finish though, keep up the good work :)

[Mojeh]

We let it happen.
You still win with activated Crypt.

Btw...
Went to a GPT with quadlaser + Ashen Ghoul board:

2:0 mono black Shadow (?)
1:2 BUG Still
2:0 Infect (?)
2:1 Esper Stoneblade
2:1 Storm
ID into Top 8

Top8:
2:0 Reanimator
Top4:
2:1 BUG Control
Finals:
1:2 Painter

No Byes for me -.-
But again 4-1-1

Yeah, I've been testing Quadlazer and it can beat RUG Delver without Tribes, indeed.
I play -1 Ichorid +1 DR main, though. I like to diversify my threats, specially because I play only 2 Ashen Ghouls in my sideboard. Do you think it's a mistake playing 1 DR over the 4th Ichorid?
Congratz for your result =)


@Final Fortune: I really think the 3rd/4th Thug is better than the single Darkblast, unless you've seen a lot of peacekeepers, which we don't here in Brazil. I was playing a very similar list (-1 PImp +1 Thug) before I've turned back to Quadlazer, and I must say the second seems better, at least in my testings. I like having the 13th land in the MD, though... I just prefer the 12th dredger.

[K1w1]

Against Reanimator:
+4 LotV
-1 Breakthrough
-1 Thug
-1 Ichorid
-1 Pimp

Like you said, only if we see more Peacekeeper it's worth playing +1 Darkblast -1 Thug.

And yes, i would cut anything else for the DR if i would play DR.
You can cut a Pimp, Thug, Breakthrough. Anyone from it.

And thx.

K1w1

[Final Fortune]

Yeah, I've been testing Quadlazer and it can beat RUG Delver without Tribes, indeed.
I play -1 Ichorid +1 DR main, though. I like to diversify my threats, specially because I play only 2 Ashen Ghouls in my sideboard. Do you think it's a mistake playing 1 DR over the 4th Ichorid?
Congratz for your result =)


@Final Fortune: I really think the 3rd/4th Thug is better than the single Darkblast, unless you've seen a lot of peacekeepers, which we don't here in Brazil. I was playing a very similar list (-1 PImp +1 Thug) before I've turned back to Quadlazer, and I must say the second seems better, at least in my testings. I like having the 13th land in the MD, though... I just prefer the 12th dredger.

Regarding Dread Return, Darkblast and the 9th Golden Land, one of the things that most Dredge players do not take into consideration when they build their MD is how it converges with their SB for games 2 and 3. With cards that are functionally a win condition, a Dredger and a mana source, "Quadlazer" can increase its SB space by diversifying redundant functions in its MD. By playing that Dread Return, Darkblast and 9th Golden Land, or by only playing 3 Ichorid and 11 Dredgers MD, my entire main deck is closer to the convergeance point of my actual post-board deck thru' the course of a match. You just don't want 4 Ichorid post-board vs Surgical Extraction or to lose SB space to more lands than necessary.

I think looking at Dark Blast as just a metagame card vs. Peacekeeper is a bit closed minded, despite dredging for less and not feeding Ichorid it does provide its own utility thru' the course of a match and doesn't leave you completely cold to the OP's SB if they do ever bring in a Peacekeeper. That said I obviously don't mind the 3rd Golgari Thug at all, I just personally don't want to have to lose a SB slot to deal with Peacekeeper myself and I see a lot of Sneak/Show and U/w Terminus in my Top 8's.

I'm pretty set on 9 Gold Lands and 11 Dredgers, the 1 slot in SB space matters a lot fwiw.

I just think cutting Pimp is wrong, I've tried cutting Pimp more than anyone I know and I always find I'm just adding 1 more slot to my SB for something cute in my MD.

[Mojeh]

@Final Fortune: I understand your choice for Darkblast, but in my metagame I believe Golgari Thug is just best. I really wanted the 9th gold land in my MD, I'll try the list with 11 dredgers.

@K1w1: I wouldn't cut Breakthrough/Dredger/PImp for the single DR, because in my point of view, it's inclusion (like Final Fortune said) is more dedicated to improve games 2 and 3, without wasting SB slots. I mean, the single DR seems better than the 4th Ichorid in most post-board games, but I don't wanna cut anything in my SB in order to fit it. Furthermore, 3 Ichorid is often enough to win games 1, and a DR can add another angle of attack, and also help in some corner cases, bringing a decent blocker.

[Holly]

So.. I played in a little tournament today, 5 rounds, 18 Players.
I decided in the very last moment to play the Quadlazer list, with a board consisting off:

2 Ashen Ghould
1 Memory's Journey
1 Dread Return
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Nature's Claim
2 Chain of Vapor (an other last minute decision for 2 other Nature's Claim (thought there will be a few Show n Tell/Reanimator)
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Tarnished Citadel

Well well well..
Match 1 vs U/W/g Miracle Controll (without Entreat, green splash for.. I dont know, possible Krosan Grip?).
Anyway I thought he'd play his normal controll, without Terminus, thus I ran frontal into it (4 Ichorids and a few Zombies in play), still I manage to barely win (1 or 2 cards left in my library).
Game 2: I boarded in the Ghouls, Citadels, Grudge & Journey and manage to win with 1 Life point left (where he made a mistake in extracting my Ghoul which I couldnt even bring into play (single land was a City of Brass) instead of my single Ichorid, which was enough to kill him.
1-0

Match 2 vs Canadian
A friend of mine.. he wasn't pleased to play versus me (also he allready lost M1).
Anyway, my hand rocks and he has no chance game one.
G2: He mulls to 6, still doesnt find any hate, and Brainstorm, Fetch, Brainstorm reveals him 6 Lands..well..
2-0

Match 3 vs Canadian
I Mull to six since I had no land nor a dredger.
I Mull to 5 since I had no land nor a draw spell.
I keep a 5 consisting off 3 lands, study, 1 Imp. Study gets countered by FOW and I can't find another draw spell before his single Ooze enters the battefield (t2 or 3).
Game 2: He keeps a no lander with a crypt, but draws one.. I blow up his Crypt with my Ancient Grudge (nothing important in my graveyard). We play Draw & Go for a long time, I'm not getting something to discard or draw and when I finally do he can counter it.. I lose 15 life to my Tarnished Citadel and die.
In my last turn I had 6 life, he an active Ooze and 2 green sources, I dump play looting, activate LED, he exiled my dredgers and I did not find a dredger (otherwise I could have activated my coliseum and had a little chance for a comeback).
2-1

M4 vs TES
Game 1, I start, he dies.
Game 2: He starts, T1 kill, mayhe it was T2 I can't remember.
Game 3: I start, he dies.
3-1

M5 vs Dredge
He starts, Im dead on t1 (a list with Griselbrand, FKZ and Street Wraights)
I Keep a land consisting off: 2 Lands, Study, Leyline, Study, Imp, Seems okay.. well he had 1 Leyline and before I could get rid of it he played another. To be honest..I couldnt even get rid of the single on.. I got him to 2 with Imps, Thugs & Ichorid hardcasts (dealing myself a ton of damage..I even played an Troll hardcast for 5 damage to remove 3 Bridges (which wouldnt have mattered since he forgot the triggers a lot). Anyway..I lose.
3-2

Got 5 place, prices were for top 4. =/

So.. Well.. I dont know what to say.. I often had mana problems, so maybe I'm going back to 10 goldlands MD. Never missed the Dread Return for a target (Flayer), but I did not play versus Enchantress this time (if you don't remember..7 Enchantress in 52 man tournament). And the games I lost, I probably woulnd't have won with my other list aswell.
Next time I think I'm going to cut 1-2 PImp's for goldlands and see how it goes.

[K1w1]

So.. I played in a little tournament today, 5 rounds, 18 Players.
I decided in the very last moment to play the Quadlazer list, with a board consisting off:

2 Ashen Ghould
1 Memory's Journey
1 Dread Return
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Nature's Claim
2 Chain of Vapor (an other last minute decision for 2 other Nature's Claim (thought there will be a few Show n Tell/Reanimator)
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Tarnished Citadel

Well well well..
Match 1 vs U/W/g Miracle Controll (without Entreat, green splash for.. I dont know, possible Krosan Grip?).
Anyway I thought he'd play his normal controll, without Terminus, thus I ran frontal into it (4 Ichorids and a few Zombies in play), still I manage to barely win (1 or 2 cards left in my library).
Game 2: I boarded in the Ghouls, Citadels, Grudge & Journey and manage to win with 1 Life point left (where he made a mistake in extracting my Ghoul which I couldnt even bring into play (single land was a City of Brass) instead of my single Ichorid, which was enough to kill him.
1-0

Match 2 vs Canadian
A friend of mine.. he wasn't pleased to play versus me (also he allready lost M1).
Anyway, my hand rocks and he has no chance game one.
G2: He mulls to 6, still doesnt find any hate, and Brainstorm, Fetch, Brainstorm reveals him 6 Lands..well..
2-0

Match 3 vs Canadian
I Mull to six since I had no land nor a dredger.
I Mull to 5 since I had no land nor a draw spell.
I keep a 5 consisting off 3 lands, study, 1 Imp. Study gets countered by FOW and I can't find another draw spell before his single Ooze enters the battefield (t2 or 3).
Game 2: He keeps a no lander with a crypt, but draws one.. I blow up his Crypt with my Ancient Grudge (nothing important in my graveyard). We play Draw & Go for a long time, I'm not getting something to discard or draw and when I finally do he can counter it.. I lose 15 life to my Tarnished Citadel and die.
In my last turn I had 6 life, he an active Ooze and 2 green sources, I dump play looting, activate LED, he exiled my dredgers and I did not find a dredger (otherwise I could have activated my coliseum and had a little chance for a comeback).
2-1

M4 vs TES
Game 1, I start, he dies.
Game 2: He starts, T1 kill, mayhe it was T2 I can't remember.
Game 3: I start, he dies.
3-1

M5 vs Dredge
He starts, Im dead on t1 (a list with Griselbrand, FKZ and Street Wraights)
I Keep a land consisting off: 2 Lands, Study, Leyline, Study, Imp, Seems okay.. well he had 1 Leyline and before I could get rid of it he played another. To be honest..I couldnt even get rid of the single on.. I got him to 2 with Imps, Thugs & Ichorid hardcasts (dealing myself a ton of damage..I even played an Troll hardcast for 5 damage to remove 3 Bridges (which wouldnt have mattered since he forgot the triggers a lot). Anyway..I lose.
3-2

Got 5 place, prices were for top 4. =/

So.. Well.. I dont know what to say.. I often had mana problems, so maybe I'm going back to 10 goldlands MD. Never missed the Dread Return for a target (Flayer), but I did not play versus Enchantress this time (if you don't remember..7 Enchantress in 52 man tournament). And the games I lost, I probably woulnd't have won with my other list aswell.
Next time I think I'm going to cut 1-2 PImp's for goldlands and see how it goes.

I just recommend 3 Ashen Ghouls and 3 Lands in the board. ( 2 Paradise, 1 citadel )
And i also think you should test the list more. I did the same mistake. Everytime it didn't work for me, i just had the feeling to change the deck. And that was a mistake. Play the list at some tourneys, maybe bigger events and you learn to understand it more. ( Note, that i don't wanna say, that you don't know how to play the deck )

Btw, who of you is in Ghent? Maybe we can discuss some things.

K1w1

[Michael Keller]

Just came in 1st and won the Maryland event. Report can be found here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24110-Report-First-with-LED-Dredge-Thanks-For-Playing-%28Maryland%29!&p=653045#post653045)!

[Izor]

Just came in 1st and won the Maryland event. Report can be found here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24110-Report-First-with-LED-Dredge-Thanks-For-Playing-%28Maryland%29!&p=653045#post653045)!

Very nice report and congratz on the finish!


Your new list looks very strong. I told you to run 4 Breakthrough ^^.
Now you're actually at 58 cards the list I'm playing since March. I only have the 10th Gold land over the 3rd PImp main and I have the 4th Thug over Journey (which was a metagame tech for you I suppose).

Did you feel comfortable with only one DR for 2 targets in your 75? I have the 2nd DR in the sideboard. The rest of my board looks very similar to yours, though.

[Mojeh]

@Hollywood: Congratz, in the first place. Now if you don't mind, I would like to ask you some questions:

I understand the utility of the single maindecked Journey, but why do you believe it's better than any other option for that slot (12th dredger, 4th PImp or even 14th land)? Do you think the other options aren't necessary in the main deck?

How was the split of Chain and Claims?

How was Tireless Tribes?

You mentioned the inclusion of Ashen Ghoul against Cage, why is that exactly? o.0

Thank you in advance =)

[Holly]

I just recommend 3 Ashen Ghouls and 3 Lands in the board. ( 2 Paradise, 1 citadel )
And i also think you should test the list more. I did the same mistake. Everytime it didn't work for me, i just had the feeling to change the deck. And that was a mistake. Play the list at some tourneys, maybe bigger events and you learn to understand it more. ( Note, that i don't wanna say, that you don't know how to play the deck )

Btw, who of you is in Ghent? Maybe we can discuss some things.

K1w1

Well you would be right if you'd say that I don't know how to properly play the deck, I'm still learning ;)
Anyway you're right I have to test more with the list before I change things. I only had 2 Ghouls for the tournament, thus I packed the Journey as another method versus Extraction.
I'm still very unsure when it comes to boarding and missboard quite a lot.


Not going to be in Ghent, I'd like to but dunno.. 450km to play Magic is a lot..

[lsho]

@K1w1: I'll be at GP Ghent. Not sure wheter to play Dredge yet. Will decide at the griders. ;) Always up for discussions.

[K1w1]

Nice.

You will definitely see me. I'm wearing a T-Shirt in black: Ever played against a fruit and in the backyard my name "K1w1"

[Michael Keller]

I understand the utility of the single maindecked Journey, but why do you believe it's better than any other option for that slot (12th dredger, 4th PImp or even 14th land)? Do you think the other options aren't necessary in the main deck?

I really feel like having a multilateral tool to improve the consistency of the deck is incredibly important in game one, in addition to shoring up and improving some percentages against graveyard-based strategies, like Reanimator. Memory's Journey was incredibly effective when it came up and I'm quite certain it would have changed the dynamic of certain other match-ups had I run into them.

It is also incredibly effective at recycling Narcomoebas, something I experienced a few times in this event. Sometimes you'll open-hand a Narcomoeba or draw into another on your first draw for the turn (on the draw), and while you might have a nutty start, you're going to be losing access to at least two of your Narcomoebas and making it slightly harder for you to dredge deep enough to hit the other one or two, which in turn negates more Zombies the active turn. It's a nice tool to have and I feel as though having some answers to opposing graveyard strategies right now is incredibly important.


How was the split of Chain and Claims?

Perfect. I like having a good split between these two cards, which are arguably the most important sideboard cards in the entire deck. They were huge when they needed to be.


How was Tireless Tribes?

Tribe was nice when he popped up, but unfortunately I didn't get to play against RUG to try him out, which is one of the decks I have been testing him against to some level of success. He's not only really good against Extraction-based strategies, he blocks and stays alive. I think that's really important to be able to have in game two's when you're trying to grind out wins. RUG has been shifting over to Crypt recently, but Tribe is really good here because it takes more than a Bolt to kill him, in addition to blocking Mongoose and Goyf and giving you a controlled discard outlet. That can be incredibly annoying to a RUG player trying to push in as much damage as possible, as early as possible.


You mentioned the inclusion of Ashen Ghoul against Cage, why is that exactly? o.0

Unless I know for certain my opponent is on the Cage plan I would never intentionally bring in Ashen Ghoul from the sideboard. In my report (where I cleaned up some wording; it was late), I mentioned Cage and Surgical were the primary choices of hate for the day. I would bring in Ghoul obviously against Extraction. Against Cage I prefer Chain of Vapor, Claims and the Chewer.

If an opponent is running both Surgical AND Cage, then I'm going to try and circumvent the hate by bringing in most of my relevant other sideboard options to grind it out and fight through it all.

Hope this helps.

[GnuHouse]

Congrats on the finish! Love reading your tournament reports

Earlier in the thread you were advocating going down to 2 Breakhtroughs and adding 2 Street Wraith. Why did you abandon this idea for the tournament?

[joemauer]

Congrats on the finish! Love reading your tournament reports

Earlier in the thread you were advocating going down to 2 Breakhtroughs and adding 2 Street Wraith. Why did you abandon this idea for the tournament?

He was suggesting not so much advocating. He "abandoned" it because it was experimental and probably wanted something more proven and/or tested for the tourney.

@Hollywood: Using Chains of Vapors and Nature's Claims in your sideboard. Noob move. :tongue:

But seriously your list looks a lot like the Spanish dredge lists that have been winning. My list has been moving in that direction too.
Have you tested enough with the list to determine if the 2nd Dread Return(in the SB) is needed or not?

[Mojeh]

@Hollywood: Thanks a lot, your answers were very helpful.

[madapples]

First post - Hi, I'm John.

I haven't played Legacy seriously since 2005. I sold all my staples 6 months before the first Legacy GP( 4 of every staple + 40 WB duels & 40 FBB) :/

Anyways, I plan on attending GP ATL was going to play dredge(GerryT list) but I really don't want to play games 2 and 3 against all the hate round after round. It seems like games 2 and 3 can be miserable.

Is this a valid concern or is it not as "bad" I'm thinking it will be?

Back up decks being Burn(not much hate atm) and Merfolk.

[KobeBryan]

First post - Hi, I'm John.

I haven't played Legacy seriously since 2005. I sold all my staples 6 months before the first Legacy GP( 4 of every staple + 40 WB duels & 40 FBB) :/

Anyways, I plan on attending GP ATL was going to play dredge(GerryT list) but I really don't want to play games 2 and 3 against all the hate round after round. It seems like games 2 and 3 can be miserable.

Is this a valid concern or is it not as "bad" I'm thinking it will be?

Back up decks being Burn(not much hate atm) and Merfolk.

You don't really need to worry too much about hate. The more you are familiar with dredge, the more you will be able to beat the hate. Most people play surgical extractions right now...so cabal therapy is your best friend.

Merfolk is not a bad choice right now with so many griselbrand decks. Just watch out for maverick.

Dont' play burn.

[Michael Keller]

First post - Hi, I'm John.

I haven't played Legacy seriously since 2005. I sold all my staples 6 months before the first Legacy GP( 4 of every staple + 40 WB duels & 40 FBB) :/

Anyways, I plan on attending GP ATL was going to play dredge(GerryT list) but I really don't want to play games 2 and 3 against all the hate round after round. It seems like games 2 and 3 can be miserable.

Is this a valid concern or is it not as "bad" I'm thinking it will be?

Back up decks being Burn(not much hate atm) and Merfolk.

John,

If you're serious about playing Dredge at an event like the GP, you need to pick up the deck and goldfish it a few hundred times and proxy-test against some of the format's most current, prolific threats like Reanimator and Sneak and Show. Once Griselbrand 'fever' dies down, then we should be okay. This event will test those decks' mettle and will ultimately decide (in a general sense) what direction the format could be taking.

But you need to practice with it. A lot.

[madapples]

John,

If you're serious about playing Dredge at an event like the GP, you need to pick up the deck and goldfish it a few hundred times and proxy-test against some of the format's most current, prolific threats like Reanimator and Sneak and Show. Once Griselbrand 'fever' dies down, then we should be okay. This event will test those decks' mettle and will ultimately decide (in a general sense) what direction the format could be taking.

But you need to practice with it. A lot.


I do have the deck already and goldfish it daily. I do have some pro tour experience so I'm not that bad at this game. I just don't want to play the deck if game 2 and 3's are just to hard. I would play burn because of the hate is at a low and it allows me to turn my brain off some what..

[jares]

Did you feel comfortable with only one DR for 2 targets in your 75?
Hi Hollywood,

I would also like to inquire regarding Izor's question above.

Kind Regards,
jares

[K1w1]

Next GPT:

Too bad -.-

Went 3:2

0:2 Maverick
2:1 Dredge ( NecroYawgmoth )
0:2 Maverick/r
2:1 Deadguy Planeswalker
2:0 Affinity

I did a bad Sideboard choice. Necro was right with Firestorms in the board, due to there were 6 Maverick decks out of 21 Players.

But i lost to Maverick, because they topdecked the Ooze/Zenith .. and i kept bad hands.

Happens. Still have the chance to get 3 Byes at Friday in Ghent.

K1w1

[Michael Keller]

Hi Hollywood,

I would also like to inquire regarding Izor's question above.

Kind Regards,
jares

Yes, I do. I would only bring one of the two in against certain match-ups and at worst one of them can be exiled to Ichorid. Those are nice catch-all slots that give you flexibility post-board. You can run an additional one if you want to, but because there are only two, it might not be necessary.

Dread Return is nice to have, but not entirely necessary. However, giving the deck a combo finish is pretty strong and helps in some circumstances.

[Calado]

Yes, I do. I would only bring one of the two in against certain match-ups and at worst one of them can be exiled to Ichorid. Those are nice catch-all slots that give you flexibility post-board. You can run an additional one if you want to, but because there are only two, it might not be necessary.

Dread Return is nice to have, but not entirely necessary. However, giving the deck a combo finish is pretty strong and helps in some circumstances.

Grabbing the opportunity to talk about DR, did you abandon the FKZ+Griselbrand idea?

[iPhael]

@DR: Anyone else trying not to pull the trigger on Llawan? Merfolk's new toy could put them back on the map for sure. I know DR is kind of a liability against them with 8 counters and Cursecatcher, but it might be a valid response to the assuredly rise in popularity.

[Anusien]

If you're resolving Dread Return against them, you probably don't need a dedicated target. It was always a pretty good matchup. They're weaker to a resolved Troll than Zoo and have a harder time handling Bridge from Below and Firestorm. If you want a dedicated target against them, #1 is probably Elesh Norn, #2 is Griselbrand, and #3 is Thunder Dragon or Crater Hellion.

[Vandalize]

Merfolk is like a bye for Dredge.

They can't landwalk us, they can't block stupid amounts of Zombies and they can't remove our Bridges from Below or Ichorids.

[trivial_matters]

Merfolk can remove Bridges with Cursecatcher.

Or Wasteland on Mutavault but that's slower.

[KobeBryan]

Merfolk is like a bye for Dredge.

They can't landwalk us, they can't block stupid amounts of Zombies and they can't remove our Bridges from Below or Ichorids.

I would not call it a bye.

Cursecatcher can help remove bridges from cabal therapy. It has a good counter package against the draw spells.

It has phantasmal image to get rid of bridges. Then in the board, it brings in tormod's crypt.

Hardly a bye in my opinion.

[Mojeh]

I would not call it a bye.

Cursecatcher can help remove bridges from cabal therapy. It has a good counter package against the draw spells.

It has phantasmal image to get rid of bridges. Then in the board, it brings in tormod's crypt.

Hardly a bye in my opinion.

I agree, they have a decent clock and a can slow us down with counter magic and mana denial, also cursecatcher can be really annoying.
It's not a bad matchup, but definitely it's not a bye either.

[Vandalize]

Erm, just don't throw Cabal Therapies if you're facing a Cursecatcher. Just make Ichorids live and die to produce Tokens, and leave Narcomoebas for blocking. Shouldn't be too hard.

[KobeBryan]

Erm, just don't throw Cabal Therapies if you're facing a Cursecatcher. Just make Ichorids live and die to produce Tokens, and leave Narcomoebas for blocking. Shouldn't be too hard.

You do know merfolk puts up a pretty fast clock with coralhelm commanders.

I dont' think building tokens with Ichorids will be faster than Coralhelm commanders flying at you.

[dredgekid]

You do know merfolk puts up a pretty fast clock with coralhelm commanders.

I dont' think building tokens with Ichorids will be faster than Coralhelm commanders flying at you.

really? cause if you are playing the 3-4 ichorids most people are, you're probably making at least 6 tokens, which is 12 power on board, which is much faster than a coralhelm. They also have to invest 4 mana to level him, which can take some time.

[smoky squirrel]

I am still trying to decide between the quad laser version (K1W1) or the more comboish version, like the one Hollywood played in his tournament.

Is it a trade-off between focus and explosiveness? Or is it much more intricate than that? What would you bring to an unknown metagame?

[Mojeh]

I am still trying to decide between the quad laser version (K1W1) or the more comboish version, like the one Hollywood played in his tournament.

Is it a trade-off between focus and explosiveness? Or is it much more intricate than that? What would you bring to an unknown metagame?

Apparently, Hollywood's list is a mix of grind and combo version, and I like that approach. Maybe it's a good call to an unknown metagame, I'm testing a similar list and it's good so far.

[KobeBryan]

really? cause if you are playing the 3-4 ichorids most people are, you're probably making at least 6 tokens, which is 12 power on board, which is much faster than a coralhelm. They also have to invest 4 mana to level him, which can take some time.

With that presumption, you are almost expecting the merfolk player to stand still and just level up a coralhelm commander each turn.

[Calado]

Not at all. One turn blocking with narcomoebas plus bringing Ichorids just to make tokens and another turn attacking with the Ichorids and the tokens put too much pressure against them (especially if you can bring two Ichorids).

[Izor]

We shouldn't overrate Merfolk's chances against us, but we shouldn't call it a bye either.

Thematchup can be very intriguing and pretty often the person who makes some incorrect play loses the match in the end.

Merfolk is a creature-based deck without any spot removal. The only way they can kill our Bridges is pretty much Wastelanding their Mutavaults, Cursecathing their own spells or doing some tricks with Phantasmal Image, but it's nowhere near as bad as against decks with 8 Lightning Bolts.

They have a few counter spells, which they can use to steal some games against us, especially when paired with Wasteland. Pretty similar to the RUG Delver matchup in this respect. They also have a pretty fast clock and the same disruption package.

The most problematic card in Merfolk decks is undoubtedly Cursecatcher. If your opponent has one of those or a Vial @ 1 and you try to cast a DR or Therapy, you diserve to lose. The question the whole matchup usually evolves around is whether your Return-Ichorids-and-let-them-die-each-turn-to-make-tokens-Plan is faster than their natural clock. Most of the time, it is. But they will regularly win games aagainst us, especially with some sort of graveyard hate to back the fish up with. One crypt activation is enough for them to race us easily.

I'd say 65 % for us pre board, 45% post board (5-10% more with Firestorm)

[Michael Keller]

I get very aggressive when attacking Merfolk's strategy, which is to say, trying to "cheap shot" our Bridges out with Vial tricks and Cursecatcher. You just have to force in as much damage as you can and as early as possible. The longer the game progresses, the harder it is to get those tokens because they're getting turns to find answers. You just have to play aggressive and find a way to take the Merfolk player out of their game. Once you do that, you're able to dictate how the dynamic of the game will change.

I can't really put a finger on it; it's just something you acquire once you've played the deck for a long time. If the situation calls for it, letting your Ichorids die naturally is perfectly acceptable. Other times, you're better off trying to push in as much damage as possible.

[Vandalize]

Mini-tournament report, and GODDAMN YOU K1W1 (4-1-1 again):

List: Quadlaser + this sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Nature's Claim
3 Ashen Ghoul
2 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Ancient Grudge

Round 1: UW Miracle Whip (2-0)

G1: Fast hand, double LED, Land, 2 Stinkweed, Looting, Bridge. Combo'd turn 1, with 2 Narcos, 1 Bridge and 3 Ichorid hanging on. Eh, gg.

SB: +3 Ashen Ghoul, +1 Paradise -1 Ichorid, -2 Breakthrough, -1 Golgari Thug

G2: Another fast hand which I can't remember. He has FoW for LED, but couldn't keep up with Looting + Coliseum actvation on turn 2. Too bad Terminus sucks against Ichorids and Ashen Ghouls lol.

Round 2: UW Miracle Whip (2-0)

G1: This round takes more than 30 minutes. I start with DDD, and slow roll when he counters my lonely Breakthrough. He's able to Terminus twice, but I keep recurring 1 Ichorid at time, instead of those 2~3 that were avaliable. Beat him to death with 3 Zombies +1 Ichorid by turn 9~10.

SB: same as R1

G2: He keeps a hand full of Swords to Plowshares and 1 Extraction, but I combo out turn 2 with double Dredgers, he removes my Bridges, and I Therapy for Swords. Shortly after, hordes of Horrors stomp him.

Round 3: Goblins (2-1)

G1: I explode on turn 1, and laugh at his Lackey opener. Kill on turn 3.

SB: Nothing, wanted to see his board.

G2: Leyline of the Void.

SB: +3 Lands, +4 Nature's Claim, -4 LED, -1 Ichorid, -1 Thug, -1 PImp

G3: He mulls to 3, opens with Leyline, but I have a hand with Nature's Claim + Careful Study. I blow the enchantment, and manage to kill him by turn 5~6.

Round 4: Helm of Obedience + Leyline of the Void combo (0-2)

G1: He opens with Leyline, I make a big "WHAT THE FUCK?" face, and procede to G2.

SB: +3 Lands, +4 Nature's Claim, -4 LED, -1 Ichorid, -1 Thug, -1 PImp

G2: He opens with double Leyline of the Void and drops Tormod's Crypt on turn 1, and I just ask him to jump off a bridge.

Round 5: T.E.S
ID

Round 6: BUG Landstill (2-1)

G1: I just kill him dead by turn 3, after an explosive start on the play, and through Force of Will.

SB: nothing.

G2: I attempt to go off, he extracts my single Dredger. Turn 2 Snapcaster into another Dredger extraction. The I start bashing with PImp, but explodes a Pernicious Deed to kill it (I respond by discarding double Bridge, but he Surgicals my Bridge). He has a lethal double Snapcaster Mage (this is so funny to say, lol), but kills me with Jace 2.0 fatesealing just because he's a douche.

SB: +3 Ashen Ghoul, +2 Undiscovered Paradise, -4 Breakthrough, -1 Ichorid

G3: We start with 5 turns clock. I manage to go off turn 2, and deal exactly lethal on the last turn possible.

4-1-1, I've just been cursed by K1W1's luck.