[Deck] Dredge

[Michael Keller]

Updated the opening post with the videos from Jupiter.

Also, if any of you guys have any new videos or ideas you want to contribute to adjusting the OP, let me know and I'll take care of it!

[Mindlash]

Updated the opening post with the videos from Jupiter.

Also, if any of you guys have any new videos or ideas you want to contribute to adjusting the OP, let me know and I'll take care of it!

Some guidelines on how to use Cabal Therapy might be helpful to the newer players. It is one of the things you need to master to be good with the deck and many people are really clueless on what to pick. I have no idea on how something this complex and situational like the use of Cabal Therapy can be put into simple guidelines, but maybe someone has an idea how to make it work :-) Perhaps with an example or two.

Another thing I often see in question is how and when to slow dredge and / or DDD.

We have a lot of theory which cards to use and why, but no manual how to pilot this deck correctly :-)

I think this might help some of the people who intend to pick up Dredge.

[sherko7]

Some guidelines on how to use Cabal Therapy might be helpful to the newer players. It is one of the things you need to master to be good with the deck and many people are really clueless on what to pick. I have no idea on how something this complex and situational like the use of Cabal Therapy can be put into simple guidelines, but maybe someone has an idea how to make it work :-) Perhaps with an example or two.

Another thing I often see in question is how and when to slow dredge and / or DDD.

We have a lot of theory which cards to use and why, but no manual how to pilot this deck correctly :-)

I think this might help some of the people who intend to pick up Dredge.

Whenever I combo out on turn one, getting ready for a turn 2 kill and getting ready for Cabal Therapy while not knowing my opponent's deck I usually base the card/s I name to what land/s he has in play:

Islands: Brainstorm if they're tapped out, Ponder if they're untapped. Some say you should always name FoW first. Problem with naming FoW is that if they have it, they'd counter your 2nd Therapy anyway and if you have more than 2 in your GY (after a Breakthrough, LED, Looting turn 1 that would almost always happen) you wouldn't care about that FoW much and you still get zombies. I'd rather name their cantrip and prevent them from getting the answer they need, get all the info I need and then base my next Therapies on those info.

Mountains: Differs a lot. If I know they're playing burn I'll name Keldon Marauders or Price of Progress.

Swamp: Hymn to Tourach on the draw if I'm holding draw spells.

Plains: Swords to Plowshares. This is the only card I consistently name on a first Cabal Therapy if I see they're packing Plains.

Forest: GSZ

Fetches: Fetches with white I usually name StP. Fetches with blue I almost always name cantrips. If I'm feeling lucky I'd name Show and Tell. The rest would really depend on how I'm feeling.


~

Rest in Peace, please do not kill us :(

[Narluin]

What do u guy think of Unmask post-board?
I think it is a solid card that gives us an edge against hate. Not only does it take away threats but it gives us so much information about what our opponent is playing and greatest of all how we should proceed with our gameplan. What is our strongest play against what our opponent is having.

Why we should not play it I guess is because it weakens our chance to find all comboparts. Draw+dredger+discardoutlet+land+unmask+unknownblackcard=6 cards out of 7.

I guess I am answering my own question here but still it is worthy thought.

[Felidae]

Islands: Brainstorm if they're tapped out, Ponder if they're untapped. Some say you should always name FoW first. Problem with naming FoW is that if they have it, they'd counter your 2nd Therapy anyway and if you have more than 2 in your GY (after a Breakthrough, LED, Looting turn 1 that would almost always happen) you wouldn't care about that FoW much and you still get zombies. I'd rather name their cantrip and prevent them from getting the answer they need, get all the info I need and then base my next Therapies on those info.

I can ensure you: If you get to resolve Breakthrough + LED + Looting there is no chance in hell that any opponent with more than one braincell is keeping a Force, just to counter your Therapies ;).


The best guidline for playing blind Therapies is immo:
Allways name the card that would mess up your gameplan the most, not the card they are likely to have ( allthough those can sometimes be the same).
Some examples:
- do you want to resolve a DR this turn ? aim for a counter
- do you want to DR a creature without shroud against a non-blue opponent ? aim for removal
- do you want to strip their hand via multiple Therapies while they have one blue untapped? aim for Brainstorm
- do you have to pass the turn with a large army of zombies ? aim for mass removal
- does your opponent run stuff ( even as a 1off) that you absolutly don't want to see ( lets say Moat, Humility, Ensnaring Bridge, etc.) ? aim for that

etc. etc.

[Lt. Quattro]

Take note too of the fact that when you discard a Bridge from Below to Firestorm, it can potentially be exiled if you can't kill any of your own creatures upon resolution. However, sometimes it's a small price to pay if you need to wipe their board in a hurry. The card is a blowout and very hard to play around.

I had a question about this part from the first post. How would killing one of your own creatures prevent bridge from below from being exiled using firestorm? Won't bridge already be in the graveyard since it was discarded as part of the cost of firestorm? Then killing your opponents creatures would cause it to be exiled right?

[TraxDaMax]

I had a question about this part from the first post. How would killing one of your own creatures prevent bridge from below from being exiled using firestorm? Won't bridge already be in the graveyard since it was discarded as part of the cost of firestorm? Then killing your opponents creatures would cause it to be exiled right?

I'm guessing they mean blowing up your bridges without any profit from it. Aka no zombies.
Ofcourse if you have non token creatures you can put the triggers on the stack so you do get tokens.

[joemauer]

The best guidline for playing blind Therapies is immo:
Allways name the card that would mess up your gameplan the most, not the card they are likely to have ( allthough those can sometimes be the same).

This is indeed the way to play Cabal Therapy.

This is also probably why inexperienced players misplay their Therapies. The card your opponent has more copies of or is more likely to have, is not the card(s) we are most worried about. I believe new players may think hitting more cards might equal more win because of what we are taught in card advantage 101 sessions when we start playing the game.

Using Cabal Therapy against a player using mountains(but not goblins) for instance: I always name Lightning Bolt, sometimes Fireblast depending on gamestate and deck, because it is the card that hurts us the most. It destroys are Bridges at the opponent's leisure. Cards like Price of Progress don't cause much of a problem for us because we can function on one or two lands when we want to and are able to sac lands when we want as well. Price can't stop our bridges and can be stripped the next turn if need be.

[heathen]

Some guidelines on how to use Cabal Therapy might be helpful to the newer players.
Caleb Durward wrote a good article on this very subject recently. It's on ChannelFireball's site.

[Mindlash]

Caleb Durward wrote a good article on this very subject recently. It's on ChannelFireball's site.

It was ment as an addition to the OP. Not for me. I am just not smart enough to teach the art of Cabal Therapy in short words. But I think it would do well in the OP for the Dredge-Newcomers, making this Primers initial post a "Dredge compendium" with alot of information. The article of Durward can be linked for additional more in-depth information though.

[sherko7]

Quick question. When I sac an Ichorid to a Cabal Therapy with Bridges in the yard, and then an opponents shoots me with a Mogg Fanatic while the Bridge triggers are on the stack, do I really not get Zombies? :rolleyes:

[Esper3k]

Quick question. When I sac an Ichorid to a Cabal Therapy with Bridges in the yard, and then an opponents shoots me with a Mogg Fanatic while the Bridge triggers are on the stack, do I really not get Zombies? :rolleyes:

This is correct. If you read Bridge from Below, the triggered ability that makes you zombies specifically states that Bridge has to be in your yard at the time.

Since they are exiling your bridges with their Mogg Fanatic with your Bridge zombie triggers on the stack, your triggers do nothing upon resolution.

[sherko7]

Got it! Thanks. Just reread that part... Hmmmm, for the longest time I've been "cheating" on a few opponents then :tongue:

[TerribleTim68]

So, some thoughts on the discussions on this page:

Cabal Therapy -
I'm gonna go with what I was told, "Think really hard about the one card you DON'T want your opponent to have at this exact moment in time. Say that card in your mind a couple of times. Then, while casting Cabal Therapy, say that card out loud." Seems easy enough, until you're facing Maverick and you don't know if they are holding the Green Sun's Zenith or the Scavenging Ooze. I got bit on that one pretty good. I named the Ooze only to have them reveal a Zenith. So, next game I named the Zenith only to have them reveal the Ooze. :facepalm:

Slow Dredging -
This one is the one we REALLY need added to the front page primer!!!! I can't stress this enough! This is the topic I need help with, so I'm guessing others do too. It's not just when, but HOW! You guys who play this deck to top finishes, THIS is what seperates you from those of us who barely play this deck to a 2-2 finish. I beg you to expand on this topic! Please!

DDD -
Yea, this one much like the above topic. But I think it may be more understood than the above topic, so maybe not as critical.

That's my thought from a new Dredge player who shelved it due to not fully understanding how to play this deck through hate. I love the deck, but I just can't pilot it the way I need to right now. And spending 4 rounds getting your teeth kicked in just isn't fun. Once people know you're playing Dredge, the meta game changes as sideboards adapt pretty fast. These topics are what seperates the Dredge players from the guys who own Dredge decks.

[joemauer]

Slow Dredging -
This one is the one we REALLY need added to the front page primer!!!! I can't stress this enough! This is the topic I need help with, so I'm guessing others do too. It's not just when, but HOW! You guys who play this deck to top finishes, THIS is what seperates you from those of us who barely play this deck to a 2-2 finish. I beg you to expand on this topic! Please!


Slow dredging is kind of difficult to teach because it is so situational. In order to know when to slow dredge, you need a good understanding of what your deck should be able to do as well as what your opponent's deck can do. You basically need to ration your Bridges and Ichorids while at the same time applying enough pressure on your opponent.

Also, it is not a good idea to play dredge at a small local metagame. When you only have a dozen decks to play against then it is easy to find room for graveyard hate if one or two of those decks may be dredge.

[Fizzeler]

Slow Dredging is entirely dependent on the situation, it is very hard as Joe said to teach takes time before you learn when to slow dredge and when to go nuts

[HokusSchmokus]

Why do people have problems with slowdredging?

Seriously, I don't get it :eyebrow:

What do you mean, "how to slowdredge"?
You dredge without acceleration until you reach point x. I thought that comes with the word.

Edit: If you mean when to use which Dredger to reach your goal, that depends on your graveyard and on what you are trying to accomplish. It also requires full knowledge of your Graveyard and the rest of your deck(how many copies of card x are left, how many cards in library, how likely is it to mill card x when using "insert dredger")

[sherko7]

Why do people have problems with slowdredging?

Seriously, I don't get it :eyebrow:

What do you mean, "how to slowdredge"?
You dredge without acceleration until you reach point x. I thought that comes with the word.

Edit: If you mean when to use which Dredger to reach your goal, that depends on your graveyard and on what you are trying to accomplish. It also requires full knowledge of your Graveyard and the rest of your deck(how many copies of card x are left, how many cards in library, how likely is it to mill card x when using "insert dredger")

During certain situations, especially post board, it is better to draw than to dredge when you have enough tools in your graveyard to already apply some pressure or need to bait the hate (Relic, Crypt). I believe that was what he meant by "slowdredging". I too am having issues with this.

~

Guys, I have a medium sized tournament coming up (60-80 people) this weekend and my Ashen Ghouls haven't arrived in the mail. I'm playing the Quad Laser list, any substitute I can use for the board?:confused:

[Final Fortune]

During certain situations, especially post board, it is better to draw than to dredge when you have enough tools in your graveyard to already apply some pressure or need to bait the hate (Relic, Crypt). I believe that was what he meant by "slowdredging". I too am having issues with this.

~

Guys, I have a medium sized tournament coming up (60-80 people) this weekend and my Ashen Ghouls haven't arrived in the mail. I'm playing the Quad Laser list, any substitute I can use for the board?:confused:

The 4th Ichorid is worse than the 9th Land MD, just SB 2 Dread Return in place of Ashen Ghoul, Tormod's Crypt isn't a real card anymore.

[HokusSchmokus]

During certain situations, especially post board, it is better to draw than to dredge when you have enough tools in your graveyard to already apply some pressure or need to bait the hate (Relic, Crypt). I believe that was what he meant by "slowdredging". I too am having issues with this.

~

Guys, I have a medium sized tournament coming up (60-80 people) this weekend and my Ashen Ghouls haven't arrived in the mail. I'm playing the Quad Laser list, any substitute I can use for the board?:confused:

Are you really trying to explain to me what slowdredging means? I know it. I was only wondering how people can not know how to do it, because explanation is the word itself. You dredge slowly.
I also tried to give an answer to when to do it bc I feel like that is the only thing one could not know.
Maybe I misunderstood him.
To your second Question: Don't cut an Ichorid main,otherwise do what Mr. Fortune said. Even though he thinks he knows the absolute truth, he actually gives reasonable advise most of the time.

[HokusSchmokus]

During certain situations, especially post board, it is better to draw than to dredge when you have enough tools in your graveyard to already apply some pressure or need to bait the hate (Relic, Crypt). I believe that was what he meant by "slowdredging". I too am having issues with this.

~

Guys, I have a medium sized tournament coming up (60-80 people) this weekend and my Ashen Ghouls haven't arrived in the mail. I'm playing the Quad Laser list, any substitute I can use for the board?:confused:

Are you really trying to explain to me what slowdredging means? I know it. I was only wondering how people can not know how to do it, because explanation is the word itself. You dredge slowly. Apart from that, I think you have the wrong idea about what it is. Drawing a card should always be the last thing you want to do. You might need to, but more often than not it's wrong. You cannot bait out hate this way. This is where slow dredging actually shines: against crypt/relic you just use your drawstep to dredge until they have to react. You do that so you can reach this point rather quickly while not losing too much.
I also tried to give an answer to when to do it bc I feel like that is the only thing one could not know.
Maybe I misunderstood him.
To your second Question: I wouldn't cut an Ichorid main,otherwise do what Mr. Fortune said. Even though he thinks he knows the absolute truth, he actually gives reasonable advise most of the time.

[Final Fortune]

Are you really trying to explain to me what slowdredging means? I know it. I was only wondering how people can not know how to do it, because explanation is the word itself. You dredge slowly. Apart from that, I think you have the wrong idea about what it is. Drawing a card should always be the last thing you want to do. You might need to, but more often than not it's wrong. You cannot bait out hate this way. This is where slow dredging actually shines: against crypt/relic you just use your drawstep to dredge until they have to react. You do that so you can reach this point rather quickly while not losing too much.
I also tried to give an answer to when to do it bc I feel like that is the only thing one could not know.
Maybe I misunderstood him.
To your second Question: I wouldn't cut an Ichorid main,otherwise do what Mr. Fortune said. Even though he thinks he knows the absolute truth, he actually gives reasonable advise most of the time.

Well it's a question of MD and SB space, if you don't need the 4th Ichorid to end your game 1s in your MD and you do need ~11 golden lands post-board then saving SB space by cutting a MD Ichorid from Quadlazer and adding a MD Tarnished Citadel instead makes a lot of sense. You also tend to cut an Ichorid to reduce the effectiveness of Surgical Extraction regardless, so if you're playing 2/3 of your games with only 3 Ichorid anyway and it's working then why are 4 Ichorid necessary game 1?

Think of it like Keeper, the other 58 cards in the deck were what won you the game, the 2 Morphlings were just there to force your opponent to scoop. Dredge is really similar, in the sense it wants to spend all of its MD space on cards that win the game and as few cards as possible actually killing its opponent. It's the same reasoning for why Dread Return targets are usually bad choices, altho' God is Dread Returning Grislebrand, Flayer of the Hatebound and Golgari Grave Troll all in the same turn so damn cool.

[TerribleTim68]

...Also, it is not a good idea to play dredge at a small local metagame. When you only have a dozen decks to play against then it is easy to find room for graveyard hate if one or two of those decks may be dredge.

Hmm, this part seems like a real deal. So then my question becomes, when will I ever get to play this deck? I don't go to anything more than the weekly Legacy tourney at the local store. I'm not an Open Series grinder. Is this a deck that will just sit on my shelf then?

[Final Fortune]

Hmm, this part seems like a real deal. So then my question becomes, when will I ever get to play this deck? I don't go to anything more than the weekly Legacy tourney at the local store. I'm not an Open Series grinder. Is this a deck that will just sit on my shelf then?

No, it's completely irrelevant, because any good Dredge player already expects graveyard hate, it's only a question of how much graveyard hate and which graveyard hate you have to expect. If everybody is playing in 4 Surgical Extraction in their SBs, that's par for the course, so you may as well get use to it now.

[sherko7]

I am thinking of a proper substitute for the Ashen Ghouls in Quad Laser's SB... I'm thinking 2-3 Tireless Tribe (to help my slowdredging) or 2-3 Shambling Shell (to help against Surgical Extraction). Am I better off just adding 2-3 DR and 1-2 Flayer/Griselbrand in the SB? Currently my SB (because Ashen Ghoul still hasn't come in the mail) looks like this:

2 Tarnished Citadel
3 Tireless Tribe - yes, looks stupid
4 Nature's Claim
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancient Grudge

Need your criticism, no matter how harsh :tongue:

[TerribleTim68]

...it's only a question of how much graveyard hate and which graveyard hate you have to expect. If everybody is playing in 4 Surgical Extraction in their SBs, that's par for the course, so you may as well get use to it now.

What I have typically seen is a fairly standard sb of 3 Surgical Extraction & 1 or 2 Tormod's Crypt. Then there is the random deck that sb Faerie Macabre (usually ElfCombo) and on real rare occasion the sb Leyline of the Voids.

What kills me is how they draw the hate opening hand EVERY FREAKING TIME!!!! How can you be that good? :eyebrow: :eek: :cry: Like, literally I mean every freaking time. For example, I have one opponent who I've played every week for the past 5 months. No matter what deck I play he ALWAYS draws his sideboard cards against me, every time, for 5 months now. And I mean every time, like clockwork. :eyebrow: :cry:

Anyway, that being the case, can you suggest a sb strategy and line of play to deal with it for a typical local weekly 4rounder? I mean, we are suppose to be here to help and support each other, right?

[joemauer]

Hmm, this part seems like a real deal. So then my question becomes, when will I ever get to play this deck? I don't go to anything more than the weekly Legacy tourney at the local store. I'm not an Open Series grinder. Is this a deck that will just sit on my shelf then?

I would get a second deck that is powerful that doesn't abuse the graveyard: MUD, TES, Maverick, or some kind of blue deck. Save your dredge deck for every so often. Your local meta probably won't load up on grave hate if you are only playing dredge once every month or so.


No, it's completely irrelevant, because any good Dredge player already expects graveyard hate, it's only a question of how much graveyard hate and which graveyard hate you have to expect. If everybody is playing in 4 Surgical Extraction in their SBs, that's par for the course, so you may as well get use to it now.

Dredge at a small local meta is such a bad idea.
What do you when you have to play against MaryMcMonoBlackTheDredgeHater or HarryLovesHelmComboDecks?
Those are auto losses.
It is easy for local metas to load up on graveyard hate when there are only a handful of decks to have to combat.

[Mindlash]

I am thinking of a proper substitute for the Ashen Ghouls in Quad Laser's SB... I'm thinking 2-3 Tireless Tribe (to help my slowdredging) or 2-3 Shambling Shell (to help against Surgical Extraction). Am I better off just adding 2-3 DR and 1-2 Flayer/Griselbrand in the SB? Currently my SB (because Ashen Ghoul still hasn't come in the mail) looks like this:

2 Tarnished Citadel
3 Tireless Tribe - yes, looks stupid
4 Nature's Claim
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancient Grudge

Need your criticism, no matter how harsh :tongue:

Are you playing Quadlaser or do you play 1 Tarnished in your main? If you play the original quadlaser you would want 3 lands in your sideboard.

The Ashen Ghouls are mainly there to fight cards like Surgical. Neither Tireless Tribe nor Shambling Shell helps you here (smart players do not extract you dredgers but aim for your Ichorids/Moebas/Bridges).

You could use Nether Shadow and Bloodghast as a substitute. Bloodghast beeing the weaker choice in this deck. And Nether Shadows are really weak. You will need the extra power from Ashen Ghoul. So I would go for 2 Dread Return and perhaps 1 target in the 3 free slots like Final Fortune said.

Ray of revelation is a card I haven't missed in years. What do you use it for?

[Anusien]

If everyone expects Surgical Extraction to hit creatures and all the Dredge players pack extra creatures, soon the smart players will use Surgical Extraction on Golgari Grave-Troll :)

[TerribleTim68]

Main targets I've had extracted would be my Grave Trolls, Bridges, Ichorids, Narcomoebas. Probably in that order too.

[Vandalize]

Actually, for an Agressive deck, like RUG Delver or Zoo, extracting Golgari Grave-Troll from a 1 dredger hand (average hand) is the best play.

They can buy 3~4 turns that are enough to kill you. If you overextend, Surgical is irrelevant, and targeting a Dredger doesn't let that happen 75% of time.

If one's playing UW Landstill, if they extract Troll, they're just shitting on theirselves.

[Mindlash]

If everyone expects Surgical Extraction to hit creatures and all the Dredge players pack extra creatures, soon the smart players will use Surgical Extraction on Golgari Grave-Troll :)

Of course it hurts to get Troll extracted...but Shambling Shell will never solve this problems. Troll 5-8 would do it...but there is no alternative troll :-/

It is just my opinion...but when I am playing against dredge I generally let them dredge if I have SE in my hand until they reveal the serious business. People here tend to play quadlaser and you can just let them dredge until Ichorid or Bridge shows up.

Of course you can take troll and with some pressure it may be enough. But if an opponent starts with PImp and discards Troll in their next upkeep which gets extracted and they dump Stinky into dredge into dump Stinky into breakthrough I am sure you better save your SE's for bridges or Ichorids next time.

Same goes for more comboish dredge lists...but Moeba might be a better target to extract here. While Ichorid looses on worth.

Extracting 4 Ichorids hurts, extracting 4 Bridges hurts...taking away 4/12 Dredger is okay for me most of the times.

[sherko7]

Are you playing Quadlaser or do you play 1 Tarnished in your main? If you play the original quadlaser you would want 3 lands in your sideboard.

The Ashen Ghouls are mainly there to fight cards like Surgical. Neither Tireless Tribe nor Shambling Shell helps you here (smart players do not extract you dredgers but aim for your Ichorids/Moebas/Bridges).

You could use Nether Shadow and Bloodghast as a substitute. Bloodghast beeing the weaker choice in this deck. And Nether Shadows are really weak. You will need the extra power from Ashen Ghoul. So I would go for 2 Dread Return and perhaps 1 target in the 3 free slots like Final Fortune said.

Ray of revelation is a card I haven't missed in years. What do you use it for?

RoR is just a filler, but ideally its gonna be used for Moat :laugh:

Problem is Nether Shadow and Bloodghast are both coming together with Ashen Ghoul in the mail.

I'm thinking something like this:

2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Nature's Claim
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Dread Return
2 Flayer of the Hatebound

I am really not a fan of the 15th land, especially Tarnished Citadel. My meta plays a lot of UR Delver, RUG and Burn so reach is pretty much an issue for me and Tarnished Citadel gets to help them a lot if I use it more than once. Sometimes I'd use an Undiscovered Paradise as my 15th land, but that card has its own demerits. I've tried playing LEDless with 14 lands and it sure seems to do well. Quad Laser with 14 lands post board would probably work the same, no?:smile:

[kwis]

If everyone expects Surgical Extraction to hit creatures and all the Dredge players pack extra creatures, soon the smart players will use Surgical Extraction on Golgari Grave-Troll :)

A RUG delver extracted my trolls after my T1 discard a few weeks ago. The deck still dredged itself out fine and beat him down with Ichorid, Shadow, Cabal, and Bridge.

However a troll extract is definitely more painful when the Flayer combo kill is a big part of your game.


On an unrelated note, I think there was a bad judge call at the tournament.
(Playing hollywoods manaless 3x Grissel, 1x Flayer, 1x STitan list)

I attacked into Mongoose, Delver with 2x Ichorid
The player wanted to know if he blocked could he stop the bridges from making tokens
The judge ruled that I couldn't get zombie tokens for the Ichorids because the goose would exile the bridge first
I responded Active player Non-Active player (I think I should be correct here and able to stack the triggers)

Because of that ruling the player traded Mongoose for my Ichorid and left me with a significantly weaker board than I would have liked. I was planning on killing the goose/ichorid, getting 2 tokens, responding to the removal trigger and using contagion on my other ichord and his delver for a total of 4 tokens. Thankfully he didn't top deck anything relevant enough and I still won the game and the match.

[sclabman]

It has nothing to do with APNAP. You control both triggers. The judge made a poor ruling.

[Mindlash]

RoR is just a filler, but ideally its gonna be used for Moat :laugh:

Problem is Nether Shadow and Bloodghast are both coming together with Ashen Ghoul in the mail.

I'm thinking something like this:

2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Nature's Claim
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Dread Return
2 Flayer of the Hatebound

I am really not a fan of the 15th land, especially Tarnished Citadel. My meta plays a lot of UR Delver, RUG and Burn so reach is pretty much an issue for me and Tarnished Citadel gets to help them a lot if I use it more than once. Sometimes I'd use an Undiscovered Paradise as my 15th land, but that card has its own demerits. I've tried playing LEDless with 14 lands and it sure seems to do well. Quad Laser with 14 lands post board would probably work the same, no?:smile:

Someone better in math then me posted somewhere that 11 Lands is the best chance of getting 1 in your starting 7. 10 rainbowlands like you said might work well, but you really want those lands reliably after boarding to either reccur your ashen ghouls or use your claims to fight the hate.

If life is a problem in your meta due to burn, ur delver or rug you can try 2 paradise and 1 citadel as your sideboardlands. Citadel and Paradise both have their downsides, but recurring ashen ghouls with citadels on a regular basis might be really taxing.

Paradise might slow down your gameplay a bit because you cannot play turn 1 paradise into turn 2 coliseum, but the matchups where the extra lands come are mostly versus slower decks anyway (e.g. Ashen Ghoul vs Extractions in Esperblade or UW Miracle).

As I already said 10 rainbowlands might be enough, but I am feeling more comfortable with 11 rainbowlands. But this might be as debatable as the question of +1/+2 lands in the Quadlaserlist or not.

Greetings Mindlash

Edit: Your Sideboard might work this way well. You could also use 1 Grisel / 1 Flayer as targets. Flayer ends the game on the spot. Grisel dredges your deck, reveals Flayer and wins on the spot. Grisel might work out well if burn is a problem in your meta.

[sherko7]

Someone better in math then me posted somewhere that 11 Lands is the best chance of getting 1 in your starting 7. 10 rainbowlands like you said might work well, but you really want those lands reliably after boarding to either reccur your ashen ghouls or use your claims to fight the hate.

If life is a problem in your meta due to burn, ur delver or rug you can try 2 paradise and 1 citadel as your sideboardlands. Citadel and Paradise both have their downsides, but recurring ashen ghouls with citadels on a regular basis might be really taxing.

Paradise might slow down your gameplay a bit because you cannot play turn 1 paradise into turn 2 coliseum, but the matchups where the extra lands come are mostly versus slower decks anyway (e.g. Ashen Ghoul vs Extractions in Esperblade or UW Miracle).

As I already said 10 rainbowlands might be enough, but I am feeling more comfortable with 11 rainbowlands. But this might be as debatable as the question of +1/+2 lands in the Quadlaserlist or not.

Greetings Mindlash

Edit: Your Sideboard might work this way well. You could also use 1 Grisel / 1 Flayer as targets. Flayer ends the game on the spot. Grisel dredges your deck, reveals Flayer and wins on the spot. Grisel might work out well if burn is a problem in your meta.


Went 4-2 for a rank 14 finish at a 60-70ish player tournament just now.

Match 1: Belcher (2-1)
I went LED, Breakthrough, Looting and Cabal Therapy'd his hand to nothing. T2/3 win for Game 1. Game 2 I didn't board anything and he went turn 2 Belcher and I let him flip his whole deck to see his hate. Saw Crypt and Relic. G3 boarded in Nature's Claim, he went EtW for 10 Goblins, I went crazy T2 and we had a stalled board for 2 turns while I amassed zombies until I finally won.

Match 2: Aggro Loam (1-2)
G1 I exploded on turn 2 and won turn 3. Not much happened here. G2 he played first turn Explosives for 0, Nihil Spellbomb. T2 Ooze and that was that. G3 he double Surgical'd my Bridge and Grave-troll, I couldn't recover and got killed by Tarmo and Bob.

Match 3: UW Delver (2-0)
G1 I exploded turn 1. G2 I didn't board anything and exploded turn 2.

Match 4: (0-2) Maverick
G1 I had a triple cantrip hand with 1 dredger. Dredged badly for a bit but I Cabal Therapy'd a GSZ T2. He played T2 Library and this was probably the turning point as he was able to filter out into Maze of Ith, Jitte and finally Ooze to seal the deal. Not to mention he Wasted his Arbor to remove the 3 Bridges I had. G2 I boarded in the DR's and targets but it didn't matter as I mull'd to 4 and had a Cabal Therapy, cantrip, Coliseum, land hand and didn't draw a dredger. GG.

Match 5: Dredge (2-1)
I knew his deck and board. G1 he blew me in turn 3. G2 he knew I had Leyline and I knew he had 5 hate against that so I didn't bother boarding it in. We both mull'd to 5 and I had LED, Study, Looting, Land, dredger and won from there. G3 he dredge'd quite badly while I had a great T1 and won by T4. Still didn't board in Leyline. He had a faster clock (he had DR and FKZ, I was playing Quad Laser) and forcing him to play 4-5 dead cards was the key.

Match 6: Reanimator (2-1)
G1 I exploded with 14 zombies and 4 Bridges on turn 1 with a mull to 6 hand of Careful Study, LED x 2, Land, dredger and Looting. I saw his hand of 4 lands, Platinum Empyrion, Thoughtseize and Brainstorm and noob as it may seem I didn't know what his deck was at first so I didn't bother boarding in for the next game. G2 he Reanimated Iona and Elesh and I scoop'd. G3 I played turn 0 Leyline and won from there.

I didn't face as much hate as expected. But I guess it never hurts to be prepared. I'm thinking of removing the 4x Leyline (even though that was pretty much the only card that I used from my SB the whole tourney) and siding in Firestorm once it arrives in the mail. My final SB would be:

4 x Nature's Claim
2 x Tarnished Citadel
3 x Ashen Ghoul
4 x Firestorm
1 x Undiscovered Paradise
1 x Ancient Grudge

Mav is a huge problem for me, I think I've never won a match against the deck. I need a T2 win to seal them, a turn slower and it gets more difficult.

Thoughts?:smile:

[ZebraSleeves]

This is what I'm planning to run in SCG: Providence.

Maindeck: Quadlaser +1 darkblast, -1 golgari thug

Sideboard: 4 Nature's claim, 4 Leyline of the Void, 2 Tarnished citadel, 2 Nether Shadow, 2 Dread Return, 1 Ancient Grudge

Explanation for not going full Quadlaser: darkblast is sick utility. Kills delver, Kills Goblin lackey, Kills Peace Keeper, saves Ichorid/Narcomoeba from StP, etc.

Reason for not using Ashen Ghouls: Ashen Ghoul is great in against dedicated control (Miracles, BUG), but I feel that those matchups are pretty good anyway. I wanted that space for Dread Return.

Dread Return thoughts: Dread Return is such a ridiculous value card. Its like a 7-for-1 most of the time. I also believe there to be a distinct psychological advantage to having one in your graveyard; your opponent is under a lot of pressure to make sure you don't reanimate an Ultra-Grave Titan. However, they do dilute the deck and make it less streamlined which is not good against Maverick, Storm, Belcher, or Reanimator where game 1's are really important (especially against Maverick).

Please give me some feedback. I want to make sure my dredge deck is properly striking fear into the hearts of the living. Thank you.

[sherko7]

This is what I'm planning to run in SCG: Providence.

Maindeck: Quadlaser +1 darkblast, -1 golgari thug

Sideboard: 4 Nature's claim, 4 Leyline of the Void, 2 Tarnished citadel, 2 Nether Shadow, 2 Dread Return, 1 Ancient Grudge

Explanation for not going full Quadlaser: darkblast is sick utility. Kills delver, Kills Goblin lackey, Kills Peace Keeper, saves Ichorid/Narcomoeba from StP, etc.

Reason for not using Ashen Ghouls: Ashen Ghoul is great in against dedicated control (Miracles, BUG), but I feel that those matchups are pretty good anyway. I wanted that space for Dread Return.

Dread Return thoughts: Dread Return is such a ridiculous value card. Its like a 7-for-1 most of the time. I also believe there to be a distinct psychological advantage to having one in your graveyard; your opponent is under a lot of pressure to make sure you don't reanimate an Ultra-Grave Titan. However, they do dilute the deck and make it less streamlined which is not good against Maverick, Storm, Belcher, or Reanimator where game 1's are really important (especially against Maverick).

Please give me some feedback. I want to make sure my dredge deck is properly striking fear into the hearts of the living. Thank you.

First of all, good luck! It feels like every tourney gets harder for us Dredge players especially now with more GY hate available yet again.:laugh:

Ashen Ghoul is great against decks that run Surgical Extraction AND Snapcaster Mages. It just beats the living crap out of them. The only issues I have with it is whenever I draw Gemstone Mine only lands.

DR is probably the most powerful tool we have in our arsenal (next only to LED perhaps). Unfortunately I really don't like how inconsistent it makes the deck. Quadlaser is quadlaser, it is (for me) the most consistent form of LED/Mana Dredge. Not to mention 2 slots in the SB really hurts. Against which matchups do you plan to board it in? I think if you're planning to run it you can try adding it to the main as a 1-off.

As for Leyline of the Void, if you're expecting tons of Reanimator go ahead. But I suggest you run Firestorms instead. Ooze, at least in my meta, has run rampant. G1, when it catches me off guard, its almost GG. We can race Reanimator anyways with explosive T1's and Cabal Therapy spam.:laugh:

I just went 2-2-1 in a tourney with my Quad list last week. I'll post the report when I'm less busy. :laugh:

[Mindlash]

This is what I'm planning to run in SCG: Providence.

Maindeck: Quadlaser +1 darkblast, -1 golgari thug

Sideboard: 4 Nature's claim, 4 Leyline of the Void, 2 Tarnished citadel, 2 Nether Shadow, 2 Dread Return, 1 Ancient Grudge

Explanation for not going full Quadlaser: darkblast is sick utility. Kills delver, Kills Goblin lackey, Kills Peace Keeper, saves Ichorid/Narcomoeba from StP, etc.

Reason for not using Ashen Ghouls: Ashen Ghoul is great in against dedicated control (Miracles, BUG), but I feel that those matchups are pretty good anyway. I wanted that space for Dread Return.

Dread Return thoughts: Dread Return is such a ridiculous value card. Its like a 7-for-1 most of the time. I also believe there to be a distinct psychological advantage to having one in your graveyard; your opponent is under a lot of pressure to make sure you don't reanimate an Ultra-Grave Titan. However, they do dilute the deck and make it less streamlined which is not good against Maverick, Storm, Belcher, or Reanimator where game 1's are really important (especially against Maverick).

Please give me some feedback. I want to make sure my dredge deck is properly striking fear into the hearts of the living. Thank you.

First of all, good luck! It feels like every tourney gets harder for us Dredge players especially now with more GY hate available yet again.:laugh:

Ashen Ghoul is great against decks that run Surgical Extraction AND Snapcaster Mages. It just beats the living crap out of them. The only issues I have with it is whenever I draw Gemstone Mine only lands.

DR is probably the most powerful tool we have in our arsenal (next only to LED perhaps). Unfortunately I really don't like how inconsistent it makes the deck. Quadlaser is quadlaser, it is (for me) the most consistent form of LED/Mana Dredge. Not to mention 2 slots in the SB really hurts. Against which matchups do you plan to board it in? I think if you're planning to run it you can try adding it to the main as a 1-off.

As for Leyline of the Void, if you're expecting tons of Reanimator go ahead. But I suggest you run Firestorms instead. Ooze, at least in my meta, has run rampant. G1, when it catches me off guard, its almost GG. We can race Reanimator anyways with explosive T1's and Cabal Therapy spam.:laugh:

I just went 2-2-1 in a tourney with my Quad list last week. I'll post the report when I'm less busy. :laugh:

Ghouls were added to diversify your threats against cards like Surgical Extraction like you said in which case you board in your 3 Ghouls and the 3 lands to cast Ghouls more reliable while not beeing screwed when your Bridges/Ichorids get extracted. It might be totally ok to board in 2 Lands, 2 Ghouls and 2 DR instead. What I do not like about DR in this case is that it gets worse if the aformentioned cards got extracted in contrary to the plan with 3 Ghouls and 3 lands.
Once your Ichorids are exiled it gets harder to cast DR and once your Bridges got extracted you get no real benefit out of DR (read: Zombies), while Ashen Ghoul would still hit for 3. Of course a giant Troll might help, but especially in the decks which run Extractions and Snapcasters your Troll might just get hit by StP. It might also be neccessary sometimes to eat a Ghoul with Ichorid. I also like to have the third land in other matchups where I have to reliably cast my Claims.

Thug vs Darkblast might be ok. It is something you might consider if there are lots of UW Miracles with Peacekeepers around (or other decks which play them). It also can kill early Oozes with no mana open, if you Darkblast them upkeep, dredge Darkblast und recast it, if you can get enough Mana early enough which might be a bit situational. I would not switch Darkblast for Thug if there are no Peacekeepers around. Lackey does not keep you from winning in contrary to Peacekeeper. Against Lackey you need the 1of Darkblast in your starting seven to be effective, while against Peacekeeper you can just dredge into it an build some Zombies over the course. Lackey is only good in this one turn where you cannot block on his turn 2 (which should not happen that often) and where you cannot Darkblast him on your first turn (which may happen often with a 1of on turn 1). I also like to eat Thugs :-)

Leyline vs Firestorms might also be a meta call. I see Dredge and Reanimator often enough to give me an edge with Leylines in these matchups and although I got lucky against the last few reanimator decks I still consider it a bad matchup. They can counter your fast starts or slow us down with discard on turn 1 taking away discard outlets or acceleration or just have a fast start themselves with an early Elesh to stop us for good.

Firestorms on the other hand might work well against all these new Hatebears from Ravnica in addition to the already known Hatebears. Just be careful not to burn you own Bridges :-) If there were less Dredge/Reanimator Decks around here I might consider this, but as I said its a meta-dependend choice and I am using Leylines in my board at the moment.

As of all the new hatecards like Rest in Peace...people still have only 15 cards in their sideboards. Going all out against graveyard decks might not be wise as it weakens other (more important?) matchups. You might still meet those people in tournaments but it is ok for me. Dredge was not hated out in the past and will not get hated out in the future. People just have more choices in which cards they use to hate us and RiP is just to slow. Enlightened Tutor into RiP might be a problem though. The sky was falling when Cage was spoiled. We are still here (two quadlaser in top 16 at Ovino 7 as a recent example).

Best regards,

Chris

Edit: If you use two lands in your board, I would make a split with Undiscovered Paradise. You do not want to either draw 2 Paradise nor 2 Citadels.

[ZebraSleeves]

Thanks guys. I think I will be sticking to the ashen ghoul sideboard. I know in my head that they make more sense than dread return, I just felt like if I'm spending 10 hours playing magic it might be a good idea to go "autopilot" for certain matchups in order to avoid mental fatigue. But I think coffee might be able to help me out in that area instead.

As for the firestorms vs. leylines I am strongly in favor of leylines. They are just so good in the mirror and can sometimes help against reanimator and certain loam decks. In my experience firestorms are very ineffective. Its probably just a preference thing, but I hate playing cards that you can't dredge into (although certain concessions must be made for nature's claim and leyline of the void since their effects can be neccessary).

[Final Fortune]

Thanks guys. I think I will be sticking to the ashen ghoul sideboard. I know in my head that they make more sense than dread return, I just felt like if I'm spending 10 hours playing magic it might be a good idea to go "autopilot" for certain matchups in order to avoid mental fatigue. But I think coffee might be able to help me out in that area instead.

As for the firestorms vs. leylines I am strongly in favor of leylines. They are just so good in the mirror and can sometimes help against reanimator and certain loam decks. In my experience firestorms are very ineffective. Its probably just a preference thing, but I hate playing cards that you can't dredge into (although certain concessions must be made for nature's claim and leyline of the void since their effects can be neccessary).

I actually like Dread Returns more than I like Ashen Ghouls in a metagame where the graveyard hate is defined by Surgical Extraction, because even tho' Dread Return gets weaker vs Surgical Extraction eliminating terrtiary targets like Ichorid, Bridge from Below or Golgari Grave Troll, they can only eliminate 1 of the 3 and any 2 combinations of the 3 still make Dread Return a threat, regardless of whether or not it's Ichorid beats and a board of Zombies, a board of Zombies and a Golgari Grave Troll or Ichorid beats and a Golgari Grave Troll it's usually enough to get there and you're never really cold to a Wasteland, which is a huge problem with Ashen Ghoul fwiw.

Even if they remove Golgari Grave Troll, the deck has a lot of surprisingly good Dread Return targets, from Stinkweed Imp to Putrid Imp to Golgari Thug to Ichorid you can always set yourself to trade with their biggest creatures on the board, discard any remaining cards in your hand, stack a Narcomoeba on top of your deck or get another Bridge from Below activation.

I think Ashen Ghoul really shined vs Tormod's Crypt, but Tormod's Crypt just really insn't an actual card anymore post Surgical Extraction because it's not particularly good vs Reanimator or synergistic with the ubiquitous Snapcaster mage or playable before the Dredge player blows you out on the play game 3.

I'm not saying Ashen Ghoul is necessarily bad, but when you have the choice of Ashen Ghoul vs Dread Return when you're not facing your opponent's hate, which happens a lot, because they dont always draw it, you want the inherently more powerful card.

[dredgekid]

Some guidelines on how to use Cabal Therapy might be helpful to the newer players. It is one of the things you need to master to be good with the deck and many people are really clueless on what to pick. I have no idea on how something this complex and situational like the use of Cabal Therapy can be put into simple guidelines, but maybe someone has an idea how to make it work :-) Perhaps with an example or two.

Another thing I often see in question is how and when to slow dredge and / or DDD.

We have a lot of theory which cards to use and why, but no manual how to pilot this deck correctly :-)

I think this might help some of the people who intend to pick up Dredge.



Well, it's kinda hard to write guidelines to. It will come with playing the deck more and more. But here are some suggestions.

blind therapy names G1: Lion's Eye Diamond is a good name since we're only really afraid of faster combo decks game one for the most part. GSZ is also a good name if you have a slower hand to try and stop Ooze.

Against Maverick: G1: you name either GSZ or Ooze, usually GSZ since they run 4x that and like 1-2 Ooze. G2-3: I usually name E. Tutor on T1 and GSZ any time after that. Occasionally, I name Ooze off a gut feeling, but GSZ is usually the better choice.

Against BG/X: Deed is something you have to worry about here. Again, watch out for ooze in the nic-fit match up. GSZ/Ooze is probably the #1 name in that match up. Deed would be #2. BUG I usually name deed on the blind therapy.

U/W/x Stoneblade: Whatever stoneforge grabs lol. This match up is usually a gimmie if you can competently pilot the deck. Just watch out for extraction + snappy G2-3

Epic Storm/AnT: Turn 1 on the play, LED. Any time after that Infernal Tutor. A good storm player will play out his artifact mana right away against a therapy deck.

Belcher: on the play, belcher. on the draw, belcher. G1 - belcher G2-3 - still belcher! If they empty the warrens you can usually stabilize. Their guys are 1/1's your guys are 2/2's.

RUG: This match up is very situational. Sometimes, you wanna name bolt to keep them from being able to remove your bridges by killing their delver. Sometimes, the name is Force to get your breakthrough through. It just depends.

[HokusSchmokus]

Well, it's kinda hard to write guidelines to.

No. Not at all. It's like this: You name the card you will lose to in a certain cituation. If there are multiple cards, count graveyards and hand size in with your decision, as well as your remaining deck and it's power( by the way, if you don't know at any point in the game what cards are left in your deck, you should learn your decklists better, this information is important)
if you want guidelines for matchups, you could do what dredgekid says, but if you are not too lazy and actually want to improve your play you need to learn CT skills all by yourself. YOU are the one piloting the deck and because of that YOU should be able to tell which card in their hand would fuck you up the most.

[joemauer]

I did pretty good at the SCG tourney yesterday. I even went and made a report.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24926-SCG-N-O-dredging-in-the-bayou

[Que]

I did pretty good at the SCG tourney yesterday. I even went and made a report.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24926-SCG-N-O-dredging-in-the-bayou

Congrats on your result! Way to rep.

on a side note.
I can't help but think Unmask needs to find its way into the sb. will see.

[Fizzeler]

Congrats on your result! Way to rep.

on a side note.
I can't help but think Unmask needs to find its way into the sb. will see.

Oddly enough I agree, being able to strip hate game 2 and 3 is pretty good even of it costs you a PImp to do so

[joemauer]

A shameless copy and paste from the old dredge thread:

The combination of having the perfect hand with Unmask is tough. Ideally you want discard outlet+dredger+draw spell+one or two lands+Unmask+something to chunk to unmask.

Unmask itself doesn't always turn the tide either when having it in the perfect hand.

The card sucks further when you are on the draw which is half the games you would side it in.


We need to add a "Cards that didn't make the cut" section to the primer like the TES thread.

It gets old explaining why Unmask and Entomb don't belong in Dredge.

[Dudewelp]

In the original primer, Hollywood has a memory's journey in the board for quads. What does that do for dredge?

[ScatmanX]

In the original primer, Hollywood has a memory's journey in the board for quads. What does that do for dredge?
I'd guess to Surgical Extraction.

[Gui]

We need to add a "Cards that didn't make the cut" section to the primer like the TES thread.

It gets old explaining why Unmask and Entomb don't belong in Dredge.

OTOH, I imagine what cards like Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek could do for the deck, anti-hate wise while still discarding.
Also, with Gitaxian Probe, Therapy could be a granted hit on turn 1 against hate.

Hard to figure if these would dilute the deck too much, but giving it a thought, one could use G. Probe as a accelerator, and Thoughtseize as a discard, and effectively have 8 targeted anti-hate without diluting too much.

[HokusSchmokus]

Are you serious Gui? Oo

With Probe, okay you can argue that. I still think it's bad but yeah you can argue that. Other than that, spells we need to cast for mana can't really be good in Dredge, because we'd rather do other things with the mana(going off e.b.)Also we need to cut at least 4 slots that should be action imo.

[Michael Keller]

If you guys think that's a good idea, I'll do it.

[Gui]

Are you serious Gui? Oo

With Probe, okay you can argue that. I still think it's bad but yeah you can argue that. Other than that, spells we need to cast for mana can't really be good in Dredge, because we'd rather do other things with the mana(going off e.b.)Also we need to cut at least 4 slots that should be action imo.

Thing is, G2/G3, it doesn't matter how good you are at going off if you can't handle their hate properly. I'm not saying it will be good, I'm just wondering if it could be good. I never tested, really.

It fits, tho. We are used to go with anti-hate that costs :1: of any color anyway, we would be going proactive instead of reactive, but with the added bonus of handling a larger array of hate, and a turn before we try to go off.

Well, I wouldn't mind if you do, Hollywood xD

[Final Fortune]

Thing is, G2/G3, it doesn't matter how good you are at going off if you can't handle their hate properly. I'm not saying it will be good, I'm just wondering if it could be good. I never tested, really.

It fits, tho. We are used to go with anti-hate that costs :1: of any color anyway, we would be going proactive instead of reactive, but with the added bonus of handling a larger array of hate, and a turn before we try to go off.

Well, I wouldn't mind if you do, Hollywood xD

It'd be effective against Surgical Extraction or other hate cards the opponent has to hold in his hand, but then there's the issue of what are you going to take out of your SB and your MD in order to play it.

Other than Leyline of the Void, I don't SB in answers for anything.

[Que]

A shameless copy and paste from the old dredge thread:

The combination of having the perfect hand with Unmask is tough. Ideally you want discard outlet+dredger+draw spell+one or two lands+Unmask+something to chunk to unmask.

Unmask itself doesn't always turn the tide either when having it in the perfect hand.

The card sucks further when you are on the draw which is half the games you would side it in.


We need to add a "Cards that didn't make the cut" section to the primer like the TES thread.

It gets old explaining why Unmask and Entomb don't belong in Dredge.

You're right I suck at Dredge. Invalidate my opinion with an old quote.

I'm just saying that there may be other applications to Unmask. Its free! Thats what I care most about. You guys can pretend its not a problem, but when the deck is only running 12-13 lands actually playing your sb cards becomes an issue. Especially when you don't want to completely go all in. You want some kind of information in the form of therapy usually so see if the coast is clear. In this regard playing Unmask does not open you up to Wasteland. and of course as already mentioned it acts as a supplement to cards like Cabal Therapy. Its thoughtseize so it takes problematic creatures and the deck has plenty of gas in the black creature department. bleh. I'll bother to test it whenever free time opens up.

In any case I'll probably play Manaless at the next credit event again just to troll people. :U

[Michael Keller]

I was going to update the opening post with some new or other information, perhaps some links or videos and such. If anyone has anything to contribute, let me know and I'll be happy to do that.

[iPhael]

Selling my dredge for anyone interested:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24979-Saying-goodbye-to-MtG-Selling-my-foiled-out-Dredge&p=684231#post684231

[4zureSky]

Hey guys, I am planning to join a local tourney and I have a very diverse metagame. Would you guys think this sideboard would suffice?

Sideboard:
2 Tireless tribes
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Iona
1 Elesh
1 Dread return
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Nature's Claim
2 Ashen Ghoul
1 Memory's Journey

My deck is pretty much a mixture between quad and combo..? I can never tell the difference. :frown:
I have 13 lands in the main, in case you guys want to know.
Thanks!~

[Michael Keller]

I think the sideboard is pretty diverse, but that is not necessarily a "bad" thing. If you're opting to play a sideboard that is built to deal with hate, then I would suggest upping the count of Claims and or Chains. However, in its current state, consider your meta and ask yourself:

Is Iona necessary?

Is the single Ingot Chewer's variance helping you, or would you rather eschew it for more of the aforementioned choices?

Is one Memory's Journey total good enough to beat other graveyard-based decks?

Keep in mind your meta and adapt your sideboard to deal with it. These are just basic questions you can ask yourself when deciding what works best for you in your particular meta. Consider what people are playing and plug and play accordingly.

[sherko7]

I have finally convinced myself to let the Firestorms go from my SB. Although I am still pretty unconvinced to use Leyline of the Void as the only real threat it stops for me is Reanimator (most mirrors are a coin flip, and I'd rather have it at that than use up 4 slots risking mulling to oblivion). With a very diverse metagame and with Surgical Extraction and Gafdigger's Cage being the most used hate card, I am thinking of something like this:

A)

2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise
3 Ashen Ghoul
4 Nature's Claim
2 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Ancient Grudge

The DR and Flayer package, albeit a bit too shallow (as you'd want 2 DR's in the yard together with Flayer for the kill) is simply to up the threat density and to win those long grindy games against Snapcaster + Surgical Extraction decks. I would cut the singleton Ancient Grudge, unfortunately there's just too much Jitte in our meta and I'd rather cut a land.

Alternatively, I could use something like this:

B)

1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise
3 Ashen Ghoul
4 Nature's Claim
2 Chain of Vapor
4 Firestorm

Now, the gameplan of this version of my board VS the first one is quite different. This one decides to not die to LotV, Gafdigger's etc... while still packing enough threats to beat Surgical Extraction. Firestorm is there as Nic Fit, Maverick (both with Ooze) and Goblins were the 3 decks that beat me during my last tourney. Sometimes I find beating Surgical Extraction quite easy even without boarding in the Ashen Ghouls, but it could get a bit grindy.

Lastly, I want to try an experimental board like that of below:

C)

1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Nature's Claim
4 Street Wraith
3 Ashen Ghoul
2 Brainstorm

Brainstorm can be boarded in any game 2. Whether it be searching for your Nature Claims, instant speed cantrip to protect your dredger, or simply to put back drawn Narcomoebas. The sad thing is, you do not have any shuffle effects, but it could still be quite a tool. Street Wraith will protect you from Surgical Extractions as well. The problem with this board is that it gets a bit redundant. You will want to board most of the cards (aside from Nature's Claim) against a deck you are sure plays Surgical Extraction. Given it isn't THAT hard playing around Surgical Extraction, this seems like a waste of space. Still, I wanna try it out though.

What do you think? A, B or C? :)

[Parcher]

Excellent post, btw.

I think option two is best.

First, I don't like cutting Firestorm right now. In addition to Nic Fit, Maverick, and of course, the Tribal(Elves, Goblins, Merfolk) decks, I've also seem quite a few BUG decks with MD Deathrite, and SB Hate. As well as some new Junk decks popping up with MD Deathrite, as well as MD Knight and Ooze. It's also surprisingly effective against RUG, since their primary plan is to counter all of your discard outlets. And Delver is very hard to block for Dredge.

6 permanent removal seems plenty. Especially considering you have the extra colored sources to support both them, and the additional spells you will need to resolve after removing LED post-board.

I'm not 100% on the Ashen Ghoul plan any longer. The decks running Extraction are wise to it. And the Blade decks really don't have much trouble dealing with them. The only way I've found it effective is in conjunction with a DR package. Which, of course, no deck has room to run in conjunction with all of the aforementioned cards. They still beat U/R, and the idiots running Surgical in RUG, so they are fine to keep. But if you are seeing a bunch of decks with Snap+Surgical as indicated, you might want to switch a Chain or two over to Grudge. This will allow full use of your Ghouls through Equipment, or stuff like Ensnaring Bridge(Burn,Tezz, and Miracles). You'll only have four cards for RIP and/or Leyline, but I assume like in most metas, that they are not widely seen right now.

I assume you're running no DR main? In that case, I really wouldn't bother with the Flayer package. It's really only viable maindeck. The only way I would bother with DR in the SB is if you expect Combo. Then, running something like Iona or FKZ allows you to prevent them from topdecking a win. Which is also a viable plan aganst decks with Top, but more difficult to implement since they have direct hate that Combo won't. But having 2-3 slots against Storm, or the mirror is a pretty good reward for the investment. And you can also use them very effectively against something like Miracles, where you will usually have one free turn after you remove their hate, in which to do as much "damage" as possible before they Terminus or Top for another answer that you never get the chance to discard. Iona shuts their whole deck down, as it does against most Combo, and to a lesser extent, Tribal. But considering the proposed SB, you'd have to trim a Breakthrough, Thug, or PImp to fit it. Just depends on what you expect to see.

[sadakiyo]

Hi guys, Is memory's journey a card to consider in the SB? What other usage does it have other than saving yourself from extraction?

[4zureSky]

Hi guys, Is memory's journey a card to consider in the SB? What other usage does it have other than saving yourself from extraction?

I haven't found too much of a use for it. It also helps you put the narcos back in the deck and dredge it out for cabal or dread.

[HokusSchmokus]

Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.
Play manaless. It really is THAT good.

[Fizzeler]

I'll be taking Dredge to SCG Baltimore, my current sideboard:
1 Elesh-Norn
1 Griselbrand
3 Leyline Of The Void
4 Nature's Claim
3 Nether Shadow
1 Ichorid
1 Breakthrough
1 Careful Study

Is Iona better than Elesh-Norn? I feel the meta has adapted in a way that Iona just crushes to many decks, Miracles name White and they can't win, Maverick Green, Goblins Red, etc

[Valtrix]

Iona and Elesh Norn fill completely different roles for when you want them, so you can't really compare them straight up.

[Fizzeler]

Iona and Elesh Norn fill completely different roles for when you want them, so you can't really compare them straight up.

It is mainly in that I don't feel I need Elesh-Norn in the matches she comes in, I may decide to just cut the Careful Study for Iona

[EpicLevelCommoner]

http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/345829

Any suggestions? Based off of the manaless dredge list, except using former extended finisher Flame-kin Zealot for the win-con and Sphinx of Lost Truths to accelerate into the win.

[joemauer]

http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/345829

Any suggestions? Based off of the manaless dredge list, except using former extended finisher Flame-kin Zealot for the win-con and Sphinx of Lost Truths to accelerate into the win.

I would ask for advice in the Manaless dredge thread.

I no longer know how to play dredge without my Lion's Eye Diamonds.

[Michael Keller]

http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/345829

Any suggestions? Based off of the manaless dredge list, except using former extended finisher Flame-kin Zealot for the win-con and Sphinx of Lost Truths to accelerate into the win.

For all intents and purposes, Sphinx of Lost Truths has been obsoleted by the more powerful Griselbrand. The list itself appears to be an older variation of Manaless in and of itself. For more information on Manaless, check out this thread out here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21544-Deck-Manaless-Ichorid).

[sherko7]

Excellent post, btw.

I think option two is best.

First, I don't like cutting Firestorm right now. In addition to Nic Fit, Maverick, and of course, the Tribal(Elves, Goblins, Merfolk) decks, I've also seem quite a few BUG decks with MD Deathrite, and SB Hate. As well as some new Junk decks popping up with MD Deathrite, as well as MD Knight and Ooze. It's also surprisingly effective against RUG, since their primary plan is to counter all of your discard outlets. And Delver is very hard to block for Dredge.

6 permanent removal seems plenty. Especially considering you have the extra colored sources to support both them, and the additional spells you will need to resolve after removing LED post-board.

I'm not 100% on the Ashen Ghoul plan any longer. The decks running Extraction are wise to it. And the Blade decks really don't have much trouble dealing with them. The only way I've found it effective is in conjunction with a DR package. Which, of course, no deck has room to run in conjunction with all of the aforementioned cards. They still beat U/R, and the idiots running Surgical in RUG, so they are fine to keep. But if you are seeing a bunch of decks with Snap+Surgical as indicated, you might want to switch a Chain or two over to Grudge. This will allow full use of your Ghouls through Equipment, or stuff like Ensnaring Bridge(Burn,Tezz, and Miracles). You'll only have four cards for RIP and/or Leyline, but I assume like in most metas, that they are not widely seen right now.

I assume you're running no DR main? In that case, I really wouldn't bother with the Flayer package. It's really only viable maindeck. The only way I would bother with DR in the SB is if you expect Combo. Then, running something like Iona or FKZ allows you to prevent them from topdecking a win. Which is also a viable plan aganst decks with Top, but more difficult to implement since they have direct hate that Combo won't. But having 2-3 slots against Storm, or the mirror is a pretty good reward for the investment. And you can also use them very effectively against something like Miracles, where you will usually have one free turn after you remove their hate, in which to do as much "damage" as possible before they Terminus or Top for another answer that you never get the chance to discard. Iona shuts their whole deck down, as it does against most Combo, and to a lesser extent, Tribal. But considering the proposed SB, you'd have to trim a Breakthrough, Thug, or PImp to fit it. Just depends on what you expect to see.

First, you are absolutely right. Deathrite Shaman is definitely the last straw to justify playing Firestorm over Leyline of the Void in your 75. I can't believe I didn't think of that sooner. :eek:

Managed to go 4-2 playing Quadlaser with the 2nd option SB as suggested. Went 3-1 before finally losing to DnT with RiP in round 5 :frown: That match really hurt. I won Game 1 on turn 1 (Had approx. 16 Zombies and he conceded).

I actually almost never used any of my SB. The only game I played (or rather, casted) Nature's Claim was against Esper Stoneblade G3. He had FoW so it didn't matter. That was my other loss.

I came to the tourney planning to never SB on Game 2's when I won Game 1's. Well, I won all Game 1's and had only one 2-0, so I guess I'd really need SB'ing tips lol. I feel like that's the only remaining flaw in my Dredge game. I could really use much advice on how to board against certain matchups especially since the reason I don't like SB'ing on G2 is that I do not (or rather, am not sure) what hate they're packing. I'd rather be dead to a certain card than have dead cards really.

Further, I played 3 RUGs during the course of the tournament and I must say I found the matchup much easier now. I found that slowing yourself down by playing the Cabal Therapy in your opening hand on your first turn is worth the delay every time. I found UR Delver a much tougher matchup due to the additional reach it packs especially during the grindy games, but that's just me.

I am reconsidering the Ashen Ghoul plan. I have played around Surgical Extraction a few times this tourney and I am getting comfortable at it. Putrid Imp is the key, although any other discard outlet works fine. Problem is, it feels like I would really need something else to play the role of Surgical Extraction defense. By cutting Ashen Ghouls, I'd free up 4 spaces up in my board (3 Ashen Ghoul, 1 Land) and I'm thinking Street Wraith actually. More permanent removal would help but the only option I can think of at the moment is Chain of Vapor, which blows against RiP (which is the main reason why I want more permanent removal).

Probably my sickest hand during the course of the tourney was a mull to 5 hand of LED, LED, LED, Faithless Looting, GGT. I had kept it on the play, drew a land, and that was GG from there. Just goes to show much Faithless Looting improved the deck (by making no-land hands playable as long as you had FL and LED).

I love this deck. :smile:

P.S. Someone please ship me a playset of Reverent Silence for Manaless list, its the only thing left I don't have. I can't find them anywhere locally. Shipping costs > the cards themselves and I really do not need any other cards. :cry:

[joemauer]

I actually almost never used any of my SB. The only game I played (or rather, casted) Nature's Claim was against Esper Stoneblade G3. He had FoW so it didn't matter. That was my other loss.

I came to the tourney planning to never SB on Game 2's when I won Game 1's. Well, I won all Game 1's and had only one 2-0, so I guess I'd really need SB'ing tips lol. I feel like that's the only remaining flaw in my Dredge game. I could really use much advice on how to board against certain matchups especially since the reason I don't like SB'ing on G2 is that I do not (or rather, am not sure) what hate they're packing. I'd rather be dead to a certain card than have dead cards really.


Sideboarding with Quadlazer is pretty easy and straight forward.

Against Esperblade:
-4 LEDs, an Ichorid, a Thug, a Pimp
Add lands, Ashen Ghouls, and Ancient Grudge

Miracles:
Same as Esperblade except don't side in Ancient Grudge

Delver Rug:
Same as Esperblade except keep LEDs in exchange for Breakthroughs(maybe keep one Breakthrough in)

The aforementioned decks use some combination of Surgicals and Tormord's. If they use Cage you want to adjust accordingly for game 3.

Maverick:
Nothing race them.

Those are some of the more popular decks you may play against.

Leyline of the Void is only good for the mirror and Reanimator, however very good against them. If you don't anticipate on playing either of those decks then by all means cut the Leylines. If you expect to play either matchup one or twice in a tournament then I would say they are worth the four slots.

[4zureSky]

Hey guys I have a quick nooby ruling question with cabal therapy..

If the guy has nether void out and I try to sacrifice a narcomoeba to flash cabal therapy and not pay the 3 extra, I can still sacrifice the narco right? Because I sac to "try" and flash it back?

[Holly]

Correct, it's simply get countered, you still have to pay the cost (sacrificing a creature).

[sherko7]

Sideboarding with Quadlazer is pretty easy and straight forward.

Against Esperblade:
-4 LEDs, an Ichorid, a Thug, a Pimp
Add lands, Ashen Ghouls, and Ancient Grudge

Miracles:
Same as Esperblade except don't side in Ancient Grudge

Delver Rug:
Same as Esperblade except keep LEDs in exchange for Breakthroughs(maybe keep one Breakthrough in)

The aforementioned decks use some combination of Surgicals and Tormord's. If they use Cage you want to adjust accordingly for game 3.

Maverick:
Nothing race them.

Those are some of the more popular decks you may play against.

Leyline of the Void is only good for the mirror and Reanimator, however very good against them. If you don't anticipate on playing either of those decks then by all means cut the Leylines. If you expect to play either matchup one or twice in a tournament then I would say they are worth the four slots.

Thank you very much for the advice! I guess this would probably be much better than trying to outright race everybody game 2. Your boarding plan against RUG is genius by the way, not sure if its common knowledge haha :laugh:

Will definitely try the tips above next tourney, thanks.

Also, I guess its worth mentioning I have near zero time to playtest. I hate playing the deck on Cockatrice, and I really have no time for playing at the local shop/s due to A) the nearest shop here has a scarce amount of Legacy players, B) Work. :cry:

[Parcher]

I need some help with a decision I am having difficulty resolving.

Assume I am running a standard Quad list, removing the fourth Thug for a land, and the fourth Breakthrough for a DR.

I am certain now that I want to add a 12th Dredger in. However, I can't reconcile how.

The only card I am comfortable removing considering MD and SB requirements, is the fourth PImp. PImp is indivudually a stronger card than any of it's considered replacements, but isn't as paramount to the actual functions of the deck, since too often I am without a dredger, rendering PImp fairly useless in that case.

Thug replaces PImp as what I consider a needed Black creature to feed Ichorid. But not as a discard outlet.

Darkblast dredges almost as well as Thug, has a bit more utility, and almost acts as a discard outlet if only considering gettting a dredger into the yard. But it won't get you an Ichorid into play.

My issue is; if PImp is the only option for removal, and Thug or Darkblast are the only two options as a replacement, which is more important? Having a Dredge 4 that you can often hardcast for value, and facilitates Ichorid, or a mediocre removal spell that can Dredge 3, often save Ichorids or Bridges, and most often counts as an instant-speed discard outlet?

[Beatusnox]

My Current 75:

Dredgers: 12
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast

Gas Spells: 10
4 Careful Study
3 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough

Goodstuffs:24
4 Bridge From Below
3 Ichorid
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Dread Return
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Putrid Imp

Lands: 14
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise

Sideboard: 15
3 Coffin Purge
4 Nature's Claim
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Breakthrough
1 Ichorid


So, some reasoning for sideboard choices:
Coffin Purge. There are quite a few decks in my area that game 2 and 3 bring in Surgicals and Extirpates, but no other hate, Purge gives me a little resilience to that, and helps against the random Graveyard decks that pop-up randomly.
Nature's Claim. Self Explanatory.
Ancient Grudge. Again Self Explanatory.
Ray of Revelations. Enchantress is a deck in my meta so having extra post board hate is extremely helpful.
Flame-kin Zealot. For games where I need the extra aggression I drop Iona for another I Win Button.
Ancestor's Chosen. Apparently the majority of my meta is still developing so everyone and their brother is making Burn or other fast decks that become crippled by the insane lifegain Chosen provides, this is also why the maindeck Iona.

Breakthrough and Ichorid, Just so I can still have my four sets AKA space filler for now, I am working on getting new cards for the slots, I actually did pick up Contagion's and am working on Grieselbrands as well.

So yeah, that is what I am currently working with. I do not own LEDs at the moment or they would probably be in the list already. I still am a fan of the more "combo-y" finish with Dread Return in the Main board.

[sherko7]

My Current 75:

Dredgers: 12
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast

Gas Spells: 10
4 Careful Study
3 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough

Goodstuffs:24
4 Bridge From Below
3 Ichorid
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Dread Return
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Putrid Imp

Lands: 14
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise

Sideboard: 15
3 Coffin Purge
4 Nature's Claim
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Breakthrough
1 Ichorid


So, some reasoning for sideboard choices:
Coffin Purge. There are quite a few decks in my area that game 2 and 3 bring in Surgicals and Extirpates, but no other hate, Purge gives me a little resilience to that, and helps against the random Graveyard decks that pop-up randomly.
Nature's Claim. Self Explanatory.
Ancient Grudge. Again Self Explanatory.
Ray of Revelations. Enchantress is a deck in my meta so having extra post board hate is extremely helpful.
Flame-kin Zealot. For games where I need the extra aggression I drop Iona for another I Win Button.
Ancestor's Chosen. Apparently the majority of my meta is still developing so everyone and their brother is making Burn or other fast decks that become crippled by the insane lifegain Chosen provides, this is also why the maindeck Iona.

Breakthrough and Ichorid, Just so I can still have my four sets AKA space filler for now, I am working on getting new cards for the slots, I actually did pick up Contagion's and am working on Grieselbrands as well.

So yeah, that is what I am currently working with. I do not own LEDs at the moment or they would probably be in the list already. I still am a fan of the more "combo-y" finish with Dread Return in the Main board.

Without LED's I would suggest you try and run Tireless Tribe. It blocks Goyfs, plays around Surgical Extraction, and is a warm body for Dread Return. Also, I'd suggest you take out the MD Iona and instead add a 2nd Flayer. Board could use Firestorms as well, just my 2 cents :laugh:

[Michael Keller]

My Current 75:

Dredgers: 12
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast

Gas Spells: 10
4 Careful Study
3 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough

Goodstuffs:24
4 Bridge From Below
3 Ichorid
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Dread Return
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Putrid Imp

Lands: 14
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise

Sideboard: 15
3 Coffin Purge
4 Nature's Claim
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Breakthrough
1 Ichorid


So, some reasoning for sideboard choices:
Coffin Purge. There are quite a few decks in my area that game 2 and 3 bring in Surgicals and Extirpates, but no other hate, Purge gives me a little resilience to that, and helps against the random Graveyard decks that pop-up randomly.
Nature's Claim. Self Explanatory.
Ancient Grudge. Again Self Explanatory.
Ray of Revelations. Enchantress is a deck in my meta so having extra post board hate is extremely helpful.
Flame-kin Zealot. For games where I need the extra aggression I drop Iona for another I Win Button.
Ancestor's Chosen. Apparently the majority of my meta is still developing so everyone and their brother is making Burn or other fast decks that become crippled by the insane lifegain Chosen provides, this is also why the maindeck Iona.

Breakthrough and Ichorid, Just so I can still have my four sets AKA space filler for now, I am working on getting new cards for the slots, I actually did pick up Contagion's and am working on Grieselbrands as well.

So yeah, that is what I am currently working with. I do not own LEDs at the moment or they would probably be in the list already. I still am a fan of the more "combo-y" finish with Dread Return in the Main board.

Without LEDs, what are your thoughts on the exclusion of Tireless Tribe? It's incredibly good in non-LED lists.

EDIT: Damn you Sherko and your ninja post!

[joemauer]

I need some help with a decision I am having difficulty resolving.

Assume I am running a standard Quad list, removing the fourth Thug for a land, and the fourth Breakthrough for a DR.

I am certain now that I want to add a 12th Dredger in. However, I can't reconcile how.

The only card I am comfortable removing considering MD and SB requirements, is the fourth PImp. PImp is indivudually a stronger card than any of it's considered replacements, but isn't as paramount to the actual functions of the deck, since too often I am without a dredger, rendering PImp fairly useless in that case.

Thug replaces PImp as what I consider a needed Black creature to feed Ichorid. But not as a discard outlet.

Darkblast dredges almost as well as Thug, has a bit more utility, and almost acts as a discard outlet if only considering gettting a dredger into the yard. But it won't get you an Ichorid into play.

My issue is; if PImp is the only option for removal, and Thug or Darkblast are the only two options as a replacement, which is more important? Having a Dredge 4 that you can often hardcast for value, and facilitates Ichorid, or a mediocre removal spell that can Dredge 3, often save Ichorids or Bridges, and most often counts as an instant-speed discard outlet?

I would stick with the Pimp.

The biggest strength of twelve dredgers is being able to chain dredge with the first turn Breakthrough. And since you are down to three Breakthroughs then that chain dredging doesn't seem as important in your deck.

People keep saying Peackeeper is still a SB but I haven't seen it for the longest time. Darkblast, for me, only shows up when I am playing against combo or control. Oh and it does show up after I have had all my lands wastelanded.

[Mindlash]

Without LED's I would suggest you try and run Tireless Tribe. It blocks Goyfs, plays around Surgical Extraction, and is a warm body for Dread Return. Also, I'd suggest you take out the MD Iona and instead add a 2nd Flayer. Board could use Firestorms as well, just my 2 cents :laugh:

How do you play around SE with Tribes?

Another idea for LEDless Dredge might be something like Quadlaser - 1 Ichorid - 4 LED - 1 Breakthrough + 1 Undiscovered Paradise + 1 Tarnished Citadel + 4 Firestorms.
This would be something without Dread Return of course. Firestorms might be helpful right now. The cards reads something like this in Dredge "Wrath of God - as an additional cost to cast Firestorm you win the game" It also serves as uncounterable discard outlet in addition to the destruction it delivers.

Konkurs may be also something to consider if you do not have LEDs.

My suggestion to anyone without LEDs and the intention to play Dredge would be Manaless though.

Greetings Mindlash

[Parcher]

I would stick with the Pimp.

The biggest strength of twelve dredgers is being able to chain dredge with the first turn Breakthrough. And since you are down to three Breakthroughs then that chain dredging doesn't seem as important in your deck.

People keep saying Peackeeper is still a SB but I haven't seen it for the longest time. Darkblast, for me, only shows up when I am playing against combo or control. Oh and it does show up after I have had all my lands wastelanded.

What I think I'm doing, is cutting one of two DR I had main, for the Breakthrough. Then cutting a Careful Study for the dredger(still undecided on which). Breakthrough is so much better main, than in the SB. And this version has enough discard outlets already(especially with four PImp). Also, in conjunction with any other discard outlet, Study is the worst draw effect in the deck. I want to open on PImp over Study against every deck on the play, even with an LED. And also against any non-Combo or Control deck on the draw. Essentially being Quad with +1 land, +1 DR, -1 Ichorid, -1 Study. With an extra land MD, I can afford to put the DR in a land slot in the SB.

I might want to add it to the SB, but I'll have to see if I can get a correct SB plan across the board first. If I have everything I want to bring in for the meta, and for hate, it's probably better just having access to an additional SB card, than having the cantrip. If I need more generic SB options, or have to bring in additional land for off-color spells, or even just need additional draw/discard against decks that both Bthrough and LED come out, then I'll probably run the Study as a filler slot in the SB.

[klaus]

Not a Dredge player anymore, but I assume LEDs have become mandatory since the printing of Rest in Peace.
You just need to be able to combo off before it resolves..

[Beatusnox]

Honestly I haven't missed tireless tribes yet, though they are in the binder of goodstuffs, I tend to win before 'Goyf is an issue for me. As I said earlier the list is very much so tuned to my area meta, which does not have a lot of Ooze and no Rest In Peace that I am aware of. I still very much like LEDless(until I get them), and I've tried manaless and for some reason the deck and myself don't get along lol.

I cannot order online at the moment, and firestorms are rare at the LGS in my area, I have one currently lol.

If I were to go to a larger Scale event, I would probably change it, put Iona in the Board, bring in FKZ to the maindeck, and trim 1 Paradise for the other Ichorid. I am unsure what to cut for Tireless Tribes, as I really like the DR package. Trade across for Putrid Imp?

As Far as LED becoming Mandatory, I do not believe so, while many decks Do run them, some do not attempt to stick the combo as quick as possible, while in Game 2-3 it is weak to the same hate the rest of the enchantment based hate is.

[sherko7]

How do you play around SE with Tribes?

Another idea for LEDless Dredge might be something like Quadlaser - 1 Ichorid - 4 LED - 1 Breakthrough + 1 Undiscovered Paradise + 1 Tarnished Citadel + 4 Firestorms.
This would be something without Dread Return of course. Firestorms might be helpful right now. The cards reads something like this in Dredge "Wrath of God - as an additional cost to cast Firestorm you win the game" It also serves as uncounterable discard outlet in addition to the destruction it delivers.

Konkurs may be also something to consider if you do not have LEDs.

My suggestion to anyone without LEDs and the intention to play Dredge would be Manaless though.

Greetings Mindlash

Well, you get to play around those who SE your lone Dredger in the early game. Simply keep a different Dredger in hand and discard it in response to their SE. Of course, this is assuming your opponent decides to SE your Dredger instead of Ichorid or Bridge from Below. :laugh:

[4zureSky]

I've read through this whole thread.. but have you guys ever thought of bringing back Deathmark? This works against Tarmo, ooze, stone, rhox, and jotun! These are the really annoying creatures against dredge IMO. :mad:

[Michael Keller]

I've read through this whole thread.. but have you guys ever thought of bringing back Deathmark? This works against Tarmo, ooze, stone, rhox, and jotun! These are the really annoying creatures against dredge IMO. :mad:

The absolute worst cards you're going to have to deal with realistically are Grafdigger's Cage, Leyline of the Void and Rest in Peace. You really don't care much about opposing creatures as you're able to blast through your entire deck at warp speed - with the right hand.

In order to combat those cards, you need to stick to versatile anti-hate cards such as Claim, Chain, Ray or Grudge. If you're looking for the blowout on those creatures you mentioned, stick with Firestorm. It can be a blowout.

[4zureSky]

The absolute worst cards you're going to have to deal with realistically are Grafdigger's Cage, Leyline of the Void and Rest in Peace. You really don't care much about opposing creatures as you're able to blast through your entire deck at warp speed - with the right hand.

In order to combat those cards, you need to stick to versatile anti-hate cards such as Claim, Chain, Ray or Grudge. If you're looking for the blowout on those creatures you mentioned, stick with Firestorm. It can be a blowout.

This is my current sb:

1 Dread Return
1 Elesh Norn
3 Nature's Claim
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Ashen Ghoul
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Memory's Journey
3 Deathmark (maybe)

I've played against all those hate cards through testing and they're definitely hard to deal with if we do not have the right cards. However, because of the 3 claims and 2 ancient grudges, its fairly doable. That also depends on the starting hand and how we deal with things later in the game, of course. Hate-cards I seem to have no trouble with, but when creatures with hate such as Deathrite shaman and jotun start coming into play, its a lot harder to deal with IMHO. Yes, those creatures can be slow compared to our explosive deck, but when we start out with a bad hand and mulligan down to a few, chances are.. we won't get what we want. That's why I choose to stay with an "alright" hand and try to grind it out. Firestorm is nice because it can target multiple creatures and/or players, but most of the time I used firestorm is when I also have other anti-hate cards in my hand :cry: I get into the situation where it is "All or Nothing".. I even have darkblast mainboard to deal with this critters. :frown:

[Michael Keller]

This is my current sb:

1 Dread Return
1 Elesh Norn
3 Nature's Claim
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Ashen Ghoul
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Memory's Journey
3 Deathmark (maybe)

I've played against all those hate cards through testing and they're definitely hard to deal with if we do not have the right cards. However, because of the 3 claims and 2 ancient grudges, its fairly doable. That also depends on the starting hand and how we deal with things later in the game, of course. Hate-cards I seem to have no trouble with, but when creatures with hate such as Deathrite shaman and jotun start coming into play, its a lot harder to deal with IMHO. Yes, those creatures can be slow compared to our explosive deck, but when we start out with a bad hand and mulligan down to a few, chances are.. we won't get what we want. That's why I choose to stay with an "alright" hand and try to grind it out. Firestorm is nice because it can target multiple creatures and/or players, but most of the time I used firestorm is when I also have other anti-hate cards in my hand :cry: I get into the situation where it is "All or Nothing".. I even have darkblast mainboard to deal with this critters. :frown:

Deathmark is overkill and unnecessary in a deck that will simply overrun its opponents with an arbitrarily large number of threats. Additionally, you don't want spot removal like that which will knock off your Bridges in the process. At least with Firestorm, you're gaining value with what you're doing (killing their threats, doming them and discarding). LED and Non-LED variants lean more heavily on Bridge from Below to amass tokens in a hurry. The last thing you want to do is worry about some relatively innocuous creatures when you can make ten to twenty times as much - and faster.

It's just not necessary.

[ykpon]

I recommend testing Abrupt Decays. It's two rainbow mana but it's worth it even if you have to cut Coliseums or add some lands to sb to make it work. It deals with everything but Leyline, but what makes it awesome is that unlike Chain/Claim it really works against blue decks.

[4zureSky]

Deathmark is overkill and unnecessary in a deck that will simply overrun its opponents with an arbitrarily large number of threats. Additionally, you don't want spot removal like that which will knock off your Bridges in the process. At least with Firestorm, you're gaining value with what you're doing (killing their threats, doming them and discarding). LED and Non-LED variants lean more heavily on Bridge from Below to amass tokens in a hurry. The last thing you want to do is worry about some relatively innocuous creatures when you can make ten to twenty times as much - and faster.

It's just not necessary.

I've went through that same train of thought too. I agree with everything you say especially with removing my own bridges. I just feel like I dont always get a bridge even though I would dredge about 20 or less cards many of the times. I guess I'll just keep testing and see which one I would prefer. Don't get me wrong, I totally understand where you're coming from :wink: Thanks for the input!

[Mr. Froggy]

I play LEDless Dredge (budget concerns, my friend my lend me his LEDs though, so I might try LED Dredge), and I was having difficulty getting the combo to run. I run pretty much the same LEDless list as in the OP, maybe with a few tweaks here and there, but the almost the same.

To go off, what is the minimum needed? A Dredger (hopefully GGT), PImp, Break, Land (Rainbow), Coliseum, and other things. Am I really unlucky if the past couple of games I played I only flipped 1 Bridge in roughly 30-40 cards, lol?

Also, I know LED Dredge is blisteringly much faster than LEDless, but what's the fastest I can go off (regularly) with LEDless? I would assume T2, and that's if all stars and planets are aligned (not really a lucky guy).

Any insight into this would be greatly appreciated! :D

[joemauer]

Also, I know LED Dredge is blisteringly much faster than LEDless, but what's the fastest I can go off (regularly) with LEDless? I would assume T2, and that's if all stars and planets are aligned (not really a lucky guy).

Any insight into this would be greatly appreciated! :D

LED dredge is only a half a turn to a whole turn faster than it's counterpart. LEDless can, and quite often does, go off on turn two.

Mulligans will help you find that perfect hand.

The best combination to go off with is LED+LED+Land+Breakthrough+Grave Troll(x2). But in all seriousness check out the primer, it is quite informative in regards to ideal hands to keep.

And goldfish practice hands to know what can get there and what can't.

[Mr. Froggy]

I read the Primer in its entirety, and I found outstanding. It opened my eyes and it helped a lot with how to play the deck. I'm gonna practice with it because I think it's just because I suck that I can't make it work. My thought is that if its good enough to be in te DTB section on and off, it must mean its quite the beast. I probably just can't handle it right now, lol.

I read that hands need to consist of at least a Dredger and a discard outlet (and draw) at the bare minimum. I assume its the same regardless of which Dredge deck I'm playing, right?

Also, for reference, my SB:

4 Nature's Claim
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn
1 Ichorid
And other things I can't remember for some reason.

My question is, are Ray of Revelations as useful as they were before? I'm seeing a bunch of artifact-based hate, but enchantment-based hate has seemed to have disappeared.

And I hate asking for this, but what would people generally side in and out for specific match-ups? My list is pretty standard LEDless, if that helps.

Thanks!

[Beatusnox]

I read the Primer in its entirety, and I found outstanding. It opened my eyes and it helped a lot with how to play the deck. I'm gonna practice with it because I think it's just because I suck that I can't make it work. My thought is that if its good enough to be in te DTB section on and off, it must mean its quite the beast. I probably just can't handle it right now, lol.

I read that hands need to consist of at least a Dredger and a discard outlet (and draw) at the bare minimum. I assume its the same regardless of which Dredge deck I'm playing, right?

Also, for reference, my SB:

4 Nature's Claim
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn
1 Ichorid
And other things I can't remember for some reason.

My question is, are Ray of Revelations as useful as they were before? I'm seeing a bunch of artifact-based hate, but enchantment-based hate has seemed to have disappeared.

And I hate asking for this, but what would people generally side in and out for specific match-ups? My list is pretty standard LEDless, if that helps.

Thanks!

I am unsure for what to side, but with Rest in Peace being an actual deck, yes I would keep enchantment hate.

[Mr. Froggy]

LED dredge is only a half a turn to a whole turn faster than it's counterpart. LEDless can, and quite often does, go off on turn two.

Mulligans will help you find that perfect hand.

The best combination to go off with is LED+LED+Land+Breakthrough+Grave Troll(x2). But in all seriousness check out the primer, it is quite informative in regards to ideal hands to keep.

And goldfish practice hands to know what can get there and what can't.

I saw what you mean, I went off Turn 2 a couple of times. Maybe I just need some practice, lol.

[Fizzeler]

Taking Dredge to Baltimore (second Open with Dredge hopefully I don't face another Propaganda from Fish :mad:)

My list
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Putrid Imp
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Ichorid
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
3 Breakthrough
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Flayer Of The Hatebound
4 Narcomoeba
1 Tarnished Citadel
3 Careful Study

SB: 3 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Memory's Journey
SB: 3 Leyline Of The Void
SB: 3 Nether Shadow
SB: 1 Careful Study (this slot is open as of now thinking Darkblast or Firestorm)
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Griselbrand
SB: 1 Ichorid

Considering cutting a Thug for a maindeck Darkblast as well

[4zureSky]

Taking Dredge to Baltimore (second Open with Dredge hopefully I don't face another Propaganda from Fish :mad:)

My list
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Putrid Imp
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Ichorid
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
3 Breakthrough
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Flayer Of The Hatebound
4 Narcomoeba
1 Tarnished Citadel
3 Careful Study

SB: 3 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Memory's Journey
SB: 3 Leyline Of The Void
SB: 3 Nether Shadow
SB: 1 Careful Study (this slot is open as of now thinking Darkblast or Firestorm)
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Griselbrand
SB: 1 Ichorid

Considering cutting a Thug for a maindeck Darkblast as well

Good luck! I've already cut 2 thugs for 2 darkblasts and I'll tell ya.. those utilities saved my ass a bunch of times!

[Fizzeler]

Good luck! I've already cut 2 thugs for 2 darkblasts and I'll tell ya.. those utilities saved my ass a bunch of times!

Thanks!

I have been doing very well with Dredge recently (it seems no one has hate anymore outside Surgical? I added in Journeys over cards I never board in because of that and to screw with Enlightened Tutor) at the LGS I goto the last times I took it I went undefeated (comparatively I take any other deck and go like 2-2 or something), the main thing the local meta has taught me is Combo match-ups and Control, how to win games 2 and 3 in those cases

I still need more testing against Maverick and RUG (okay mainly Maverick), I am fortunate Maverick players haven't caught on to playing Militant and Deathrite Shaman when they are on the draw is a turn to slow

I also finally got the hand of siding out LEDs, I have been winning game 2 by not playing into hate while still exploding turn 2 or 3

EDIT: and if I hardcast another Grave-Troll I am taking a snapshot, seriously still surprised I did that :laugh:

[Michael Keller]

Expect a touch-up to the O.P. Looking to get more videos, information and other good stuff in there.

[Mr. Froggy]

If I understand Dredge correctly, I reveal all 6 cards from GGT, then I put them in the graveyard? I used to reveal them one by one to make things easier for me and my opponent.

[teonsw]

If I understand Dredge correctly, I reveal all 6 cards from GGT, then I put them in the graveyard? I used to reveal them one by one to make things easier for me and my opponent.

I'm not as sure that it an issue to normal dredge, but the dredge all happens at once so te cards all enter the graveyard at the same time. I know in manaless order is important for creatures like nether shadow, and since they all enter at the same time it gives you the option of changing the order of the 6 revealed cards when they enter the yard.

[Michael Keller]

Looking to go to Baltimore. Will most likely be piloting Dredge.

[teonsw]

Looking to go to Baltimore. Will most likely be piloting Dredge.

Not Manaless?!?

[Fizzeler]

If I understand Dredge correctly, I reveal all 6 cards from GGT, then I put them in the graveyard? I used to reveal them one by one to make things easier for me and my opponent.


I'm not as sure that it an issue to normal dredge, but the dredge all happens at once so te cards all enter the graveyard at the same time. I know in manaless order is important for creatures like nether shadow, and since they all enter at the same time it gives you the option of changing the order of the 6 revealed cards when they enter the yard.

After boarding many Dredge decks bring in Ashen Ghoul or Nether Shadow for Surgical so GY order is relevant, but yes since all cards hit the GY at the same time you choose the order they hit the GY

[4zureSky]

I'd say ALWAYS expect grafdigger and surgicals. That way, you'll be more prepared than to be totally surprised and get shut down by 1 or 2 cards. I just worry about Mongoose for RUG and Ooze for Maverick. Both of those can be handled by Firestorm :laugh: But hopefully, you can combo out before any of those gets annoying. :frown:

[Fizzeler]

I'd say ALWAYS expect grafdigger and surgicals. That way, you'll be more prepared than to be totally surprised and get shut down by 1 or 2 cards. I just worry about Mongoose for RUG and Ooze for Maverick. Both of those can be handled by Firestorm :laugh: But hopefully, you can combo out before any of those gets annoying. :frown:

Cage I expect out of decks like RUG (never expect it from Maverick as it shuts down GSZ), D&T, and almost any control deck

Surgical I expect in any deck that can afford 2 life

[Michael Keller]

Not Manaless?!?

Not sure yet. Right now I'm 50/50.

[Mindlash]

I just worry about Mongoose for RUG and [...]. Both of those can be handled by Firestorm :laugh:

Shroud wants to have a word with you...
Honey badger don't care. Honey badger don't give a shit. :-/

Greetings Chris

[4zureSky]

Shroud wants to have a word with you...
Honey badger don't care. Honey badger don't give a shit. :-/

Greetings Chris

Aw man, I wasn't thinking. Good call :(

[Mindlash]

Aw man, I wasn't thinking. Good call :(

No Problem :-) But I think Mongoose and Tarmogoyf are no problem in this Matchup. You can generally ignore them or chumpblock them with Zombies once they are strong enough so you do not loose your bridges. Canadian is pretty easy to beat with Dredge to be fair. Game 2 you can DDD to avoid counters and wait for an extra landdrop to play through their daze'.

Early Delvers can be problematic though. Only your Moebas can block them (ok and Stinkweed...but this is rather seldom). You should also take be cautious because their Lightning Bolts can deal with your Bridges (mostly by shooting at Delver).

Most RUG Delvers use Surgicals and Tormod's here. This is why I use Ghouls after Boarding. It increases your threat density and helps you against both cards. When they suprise you with Cages in G2 just switch to Claims in G3. You could also board nothing in G3 and try to race them while cabaling their cages, but I like the safe way and grind games out in G2/G3.

Against Maverick I board nothing and just race them. Seems like an 50/50 Matchup. Perhaps slightly in our favor. Marverick seems to be on the decline here though...

This was written from a LED Quadlaser Dredge (with Ghoulboard) perspective.

Greetings Chris

[sherko7]

No Problem :-) But I think Mongoose and Tarmogoyf are no problem in this Matchup. You can generally ignore them or chumpblock them with Zombies once they are strong enough so you do not loose your bridges. Canadian is pretty easy to beat with Dredge to be fair. Game 2 you can DDD to avoid counters and wait for an extra landdrop to play through their daze'.

Early Delvers can be problematic though. Only your Moebas can block them (ok and Stinkweed...but this is rather seldom). You should also take be cautious because their Lightning Bolts can deal with your Bridges (mostly by shooting at Delver).

Most RUG Delvers use Surgicals and Tormod's here. This is why I use Ghouls after Boarding. It increases your threat density and helps you against both cards. When they suprise you with Cages in G2 just switch to Claims in G3. You could also board nothing in G3 and try to race them while cabaling their cages, but I like the safe way and grind games out in G2/G3.

Against Maverick I board nothing and just race them. Seems like an 50/50 Matchup. Perhaps slightly in our favor. Marverick seems to be on the decline here though...

This was written from a LED Quadlaser Dredge (with Ghoulboard) perspective.

Greetings Chris

RUG is not an issue with this deck at all. I've played against 3 RUG players during my last tourney and managed to beat them all (6-2). U/R is much more of a threat for me (but still favorable) due to the speed. The extra amount of burn it packs adds to the pressure as it can easily burn down its own GG's, Delvers to exile your Bridges or simply aim everything straight to your face while you're slow dredging. Still, like I said, still favorable.

My official archenemy right now is Stoneblade. :mad:

[Mindlash]

RUG is not an issue with this deck at all. I've played against 3 RUG players during my last tourney and managed to beat them all (6-2). U/R is much more of a threat for me (but still favorable) due to the speed. The extra amount of burn it packs adds to the pressure as it can easily burn down its own GG's, Delvers to exile your Bridges or simply aim everything straight to your face while you're slow dredging. Still, like I said, still favorable.

My official archenemy right now is Stoneblade. :mad:

I would board Ghouls here too. Most of the times Stoneblades are on Surgicals. If needed you can bring your Claims G3 here. I would board similar to what I board against RUG Delver.

Most of the time they have no pressure, but can be pretty annoying with StP on your Ichorids.
Battlerskull can be problematic with counterbackup but normally you can just strip it from their hand after they tutored it with Mystic. I have a 1off Grudge which can be helpful too.

I am not very good in fighting Zombardement though. I just cannot decide if it is better to board nothing at all and race them, which should be pretty easy due to their creatures inability to block or if I should bring Ghouls for a more diverse threatbase and to counter Surgicals. But then again they sometimes surprise me with Leyline which sucks. It is not that its an unbeatable matchup but I feel pretty unconfortable with it. Thank god you do not meet those very often :-/

And I thankfully never met RiP/Helm Combo yet :> This will be not very funny to play against I guess...

Greetings Chris

[Fizzeler]

I would board Ghouls here too. Most of the times Stoneblades are on Surgicals. If needed you can bring your Claims G3 here. I would board similar to what I board against RUG Delver.

Most of the time they have no pressure, but can be pretty annoying with StP on your Ichorids.
Battlerskull can be problematic with counterbackup but normally you can just strip it from their hand after they tutored it with Mystic. I have a 1off Grudge which can be helpful too.

I am not very good in fighting Zombardement though. I just cannot decide if it is better to board nothing at all and race them, which should be pretty easy due to their creatures inability to block or if I should bring Ghouls for a more diverse threatbase and to counter Surgicals. But then again they sometimes surprise me with Leyline which sucks. It is not that its an unbeatable matchup but I feel pretty unconfortable with it. Thank god you do not meet those very often :-/

And I thankfully never met RiP/Helm Combo yet :> This will be not very funny to play against I guess...

Greetings Chris
Stoneblade can be quite annoying mainly due to surgical, Therapy is a must vs them I usually hit Surgical followed my Snappy, if for some reason I expect they aren't on surgical I'll hit StP

Zombardment board in something to outrace them

RiP/Helm is easier than expected just kill them turn 1 or 2 :laugh:

EDIT: Hollywood (Mike) if you are heading to Baltimore, let me know if you need to borrow anything spicy for your sideboard :wink:

[Michael Keller]

Stoneblade can be quite annoying mainly due to surgical, Therapy is a must vs them I usually hit Surgical followed my Snappy, if for some reason I expect they aren't on surgical I'll hit StP

Zombardment board in something to outrace them

RiP/Helm is easier than expected just kill them turn 1 or 2 :laugh:

EDIT: Hollywood (Mike) if you are heading to Baltimore, let me know if you need to borrow anything spicy for your sideboard :wink:

Thanks, man. I appreciate the offer. I have every conceivable Dredge sideboard card pimped, so I should be good.

[joemauer]

I would board Ghouls here too. Most of the times Stoneblades are on Surgicals. If needed you can bring your Claims G3 here. I would board similar to what I board against RUG Delver.

Most of the time they have no pressure, but can be pretty annoying with StP on your Ichorids.
Battlerskull can be problematic with counterbackup but normally you can just strip it from their hand after they tutored it with Mystic. I have a 1off Grudge which can be helpful too.

I am not very good in fighting Zombardement though. I just cannot decide if it is better to board nothing at all and race them, which should be pretty easy due to their creatures inability to block or if I should bring Ghouls for a more diverse threatbase and to counter Surgicals. But then again they sometimes surprise me with Leyline which sucks. It is not that its an unbeatable matchup but I feel pretty unconfortable with it. Thank god you do not meet those very often :-/

And I thankfully never met RiP/Helm Combo yet :> This will be not very funny to play against I guess...

Greetings Chris

Leyline is actually quite good here. It cuts off Zombardment's tricks that they use to keep us off zombie tokens. Also, destroys a lot of their synergy. Turns most of their creatures into boring Savannah Lions, that can't block. Oh and they have usually have very few ways(if any) to destroy enchantments.

I would not like to get paired against RiP combo either, ever in a tourney. Good thing that deck isn't popular/good.

[Mr. Froggy]

My LEDs are in the mail, I should receive them shortly.

I was wondering though, against Elves am I better off just siding in Iona and naming green or siding in Elesh? I assume either way, Elves is gonna have one hell of a time (if I can find them, that is). Or here comes another question, do we even need to side in something against Elves? A guy at my LGS plays Elves, so I was wondering.

Also, against the mirror, do I side in both grave hate AND anti-grave hate?

[joemauer]

My LEDs are in the mail, I should receive them shortly.

I was wondering though, against Elves am I better off just siding in Iona and naming green or siding in Elesh? I assume either way, Elves is gonna have one hell of a time (if I can find them, that is). Or here comes another question, do we even need to side in something against Elves? A guy at my LGS plays Elves, so I was wondering.



If you have both, might as well side both in. If you land either it is probably gg versus elves.



Also, against the mirror, do I side in both grave hate AND anti-grave hate?

Sometimes.

[sherko7]

I would board Ghouls here too. Most of the times Stoneblades are on Surgicals. If needed you can bring your Claims G3 here. I would board similar to what I board against RUG Delver.

Most of the time they have no pressure, but can be pretty annoying with StP on your Ichorids.
Battlerskull can be problematic with counterbackup but normally you can just strip it from their hand after they tutored it with Mystic. I have a 1off Grudge which can be helpful too.

I am not very good in fighting Zombardement though. I just cannot decide if it is better to board nothing at all and race them, which should be pretty easy due to their creatures inability to block or if I should bring Ghouls for a more diverse threatbase and to counter Surgicals. But then again they sometimes surprise me with Leyline which sucks. It is not that its an unbeatable matchup but I feel pretty unconfortable with it. Thank god you do not meet those very often :-/

And I thankfully never met RiP/Helm Combo yet :> This will be not very funny to play against I guess...

Greetings Chris

I hate StP! And since I'm running quad laser Ichorid is there only target. Batterskull is not much of an issue for me if I have 3-4 Bridges in the yard (I'll just give birth to enough tokens to win in 1 attack).

I haven't played Zombardment so I cannot really comment, but it seems Leyline should be great against them.

There are already a couple of RiP/Helm and RiP Enchantress players in our meta, I'm getting a feeling that I might be paired against one of them next tourney :cry:


Mr. Froggy
My LEDs are in the mail, I should receive them shortly.

I was wondering though, against Elves am I better off just siding in Iona and naming green or siding in Elesh? I assume either way, Elves is gonna have one hell of a time (if I can find them, that is). Or here comes another question, do we even need to side in something against Elves? A guy at my LGS plays Elves, so I was wondering.

Also, against the mirror, do I side in both grave hate AND anti-grave hate?

I find its better off to simply outrace Elves. They're pretty easy to outrace (I know this for a fact as my brother is an Elf Combo player and we spar a lot). Therapy for Glimpse and GSZ and you should be fine. If you have the lone Darkblast MD, then you have the nuts right there as well.

If the Elves players is going the Ezuri / Mirror Entity aggro mode though, that could probably spell trouble if you're slow dredging.

[Michael Keller]

There are already a couple of RiP/Helm and RiP Enchantress players in our meta, I'm getting a feeling that I might be paired against one of them next tourney :cry:

You should go into every tournament and every match with the mindset you expect to win, regardless of what they're playing.

[HokusSchmokus]

There are already a couple of RiP/Helm and RiP Enchantress players in our meta, I'm getting a feeling that I might be paired against one of them next tourney :cry:



You need to be prepared against this matchup either way. Good thing to do is play a few test games as Dredge against RiP decks and then do a few test games where you pilot the RiP decks against Dredge.
Also, be smart about Therapies. I witnessed a player last tournament losing with 8 Zombies on board because he Therapied for Rest in Piece, when something like Confinement or Elephant Grass would have been the correct choice. Don't make mistakes like that. The matchup is by no means unwinnable but you have to do a lot of work to win.

[Mindlash]

You need to be prepared against this matchup either way. Good thing to do is play a few test games as Dredge against RiP decks and then do a few test games where you pilot the RiP decks against Dredge.
Also, be smart about Therapies. I witnessed a player last tournament losing with 8 Zombies on board because he Therapied for Rest in Piece, when something like Confinement or Elephant Grass would have been the correct choice. Don't make mistakes like that. The matchup is by no means unwinnable but you have to do a lot of work to win.

You are right on this one. It is not always the right choice to go against grave hate. With 8 Zombies on the Board I would probably Therapy on Energy Field against Helm Combo Decks especially if their wihite mana sources are tapped out. E-Tutor might be another choice since they can go E-Tutor into Energy Field end of your turn if they have white mana open. Against RiP Enchantress its the same choice I think, but Energy Field is now Confinement/Grass like you mention.

How do you choose while playing against these decks between the actual card or the tutor when they have the mana to tutor and you have just one Therapy? Two Therapies I would go Tutor first and then the actual card (if they have them...but now you can see it ^^). Similar thing that breaks my head is GSZ vs Ooze/Knight. But thats another story :-)

Greetings Chris

[Felidae]

Why would you even bother to name Energy Field if you can simply destroy it via discard against them ?

Naming the actual card or the Tutor is allways depending on the situation and can't be breaken down to a simple right or wrong question. As Hokus said: play a couple of times against the deck and you'll get a feeling for it.

On a side note: Went 4-0 at my local tourney with my old LEDless list, after playing other archetyps for two months straight. As soemone in this thread once said: If you are going to play Dredge on a weekly basis you sometimes need to play something else until everyone has forgotten that they need gravehate and then you strike again.
UW Thopter Control 2:1 (lost g2 due to Ensnaring Bridge and recurring Crypts, damn you Academy Ruins...)
Canadian 2:0 ( won G1 after a mulligan to 4, won G2 against a Cage with the good old meat plan)
Canadian 2:1 ( lost g2 due to Cage and Delver beats)
Affinity 2:0

[HokusSchmokus]

On a side note: Went 4-0 at my local tourney with my old LEDless list, after playing other archetyps for two months straight. As soemone in this thread once said: If you are going to play Dredge on a weekly basis you sometimes need to play something else until everyone has forgotten that they need gravehate and then you strike again.


Nice! Keep on playing Dredge for a while please, as then I might be able to actually win the next tournament in Bottrop and not lose 0:2 against your RiP deck in the quarters :P

[Fizzeler]

Why would you even bother to name Energy Field if you can simply destroy it via discard against them ?

Naming the actual card or the Tutor is allways depending on the situation and can't be breaken down to a simple right or wrong question. As Hokus said: play a couple of times against the deck and you'll get a feeling for it.

On a side note: Went 4-0 at my local tourney with my old LEDless list, after playing other archetyps for two months straight. As soemone in this thread once said: If you are going to play Dredge on a weekly basis you sometimes need to play something else until everyone has forgotten that they need gravehate and then you strike again.

I agree with this 100% I switch up decks every week, whenever I have brought Dredge in the past month I went 4-0 as well :smile:

I'll be taking Dredge again this week though as Baltimore is nearing and I need to shape up my game vs a varied meta! (the guys at the shop like to switch decks up as well it is nice not having the same meta every week)

[Mr. Froggy]

With my LEDless on MTGO (no budget for both in real life and online), I went

T1: (hand: GGT, GGT, Break, PImp, Citadel, Break, Something else)
Land, PImp
Pass

OPP has Enchantress in play
OPP EOT discard GGT

T2:
Dredge 6 (reveal irrelevant things)
Land, Discard both GGTs
Breakthrough for 1

OPP Scoop, fastest win I ever got with LEDless Dredge lol

[sherko7]

You should go into every tournament and every match with the mindset you expect to win, regardless of what they're playing.

Advice noted. ;)

Problem with my current situation is that after playing Dredge for a while I have totally given up on trying to play other decks. :laugh:
The deck is just too fun/insane/unfair/crazy/challenging all at once!

I'd probably try out Storm but I still have a lot to save up for. Belcher would be nice too.:laugh:

[Fizzeler]

Advice noted. ;)

Problem with my current situation is that after playing Dredge for a while I have totally given up on trying to play other decks. :laugh:
The deck is just too fun/insane/unfair/crazy/challenging all at once!

I'd probably try out Storm but I still have a lot to save up for. Belcher would be nice too.:laugh:

Well I am still shy a few tutors and rits of TES and Belcher, but I agree with this 100% it is why I also play High Tide and might try Cephalid Breakfast as well

:smile::smile::smile: Combo decks/Engine Decks

[sherko7]

Well I am still shy a few tutors and rits of TES and Belcher, but I agree with this 100% it is why I also play High Tide and might try Cephalid Breakfast as well

:smile::smile::smile: Combo decks/Engine Decks

+1000000. No to FoW decks!:laugh:

I used to be a control/tempo player. But when I tried my hand at combo everything else just seemed too damn slow. I'd love to play High Tide too but I do not want to get FoWs, its too damned overpriced for what it does.:laugh:

[igri_is_a_bk]

I went

T1: (hand: GGT, GGT, Break, PImp, Citadel, Break, Something else)
Land, PImp
Pass

OPP has Enchantress in play
OPP EOT discard GGT

T2:
Dredge 6 (reveal irrelevant things)
Land, Discard both GGTs
Breakthrough for 1


You should discard dredgers and the occasional black creature for Ichorid triggers during your upkeep, just to develop a strong habit. It was irrelevant here because you discarded before the Bt, but that won't always be the case.

[Fizzeler]

So curious what is the plan vs Elves? I just realized that besides Elesh-Norn I have no idea what to board in vs them? Do I just want to go off faster or do I board in anti-hate?

[Mr. Froggy]

You should discard dredgers and the occasional black creature for Ichorid triggers during your upkeep, just to develop a strong habit. It was irrelevant here because you discarded before the Bt, but that won't always be the case.

Also, I've been thinking about this, is it a good plan to Breakthrough with no Dredgers in your grave but in your hand? Or should Breakthrough always be used as an enabler?

@Fizzeler I would board in Elesh and/or Iona against Elves, just to be safe.

[Felidae]

Also, I've been thinking about this, is it a good plan to Breakthrough with no Dredgers in your grave but in your hand? Or should Breakthrough always be used as an enabler?

Always is a word that shouldn't be used at all in a game where you can instantly make up an infinite number of different board states.

It always depends on different factors, like:
- can I cast it for x=1/4 ( i.e. do I have a chance to draw another draw spell that I don't have to discard?)
- how many cards do I have in my hand / how long till I can discard on my own?)
- How much preassure does my opponent apply?
- Do I need to steamroll him in one turn or can I savely win via slowdredging ?
etc.

[Fizzeler]

Also, I've been thinking about this, is it a good plan to Breakthrough with no Dredgers in your grave but in your hand? Or should Breakthrough always be used as an enabler?

@Fizzeler I would board in Elesh and/or Iona against Elves, just to be safe.

That was my thought as well, I was just unsure if I should expect Faerie Macabre from Elves or Relic (I know not to expect Cage as it really hurts their deck)

Omni-Tell I have found to be actually one of my best match-ups (then again about 3 people at my LGS play it) they durdle for a few turns and lose before they can combo off and are very vulnerable to Therapy, after board I usually put them on Cage in Sneak, if Omni I put them on nothing except maybe Pyroclasm

[raikenxy]

Hey all...

I've been playing dredge for a while now. And I love my build as it works for me. currently the list im running is ...

4 colisseum
4 mine
4 city of brass
1 tarnished citadel

4 imps
4 trolls
3 thugs
4 putrid imps
4 narcomoeba
1 griselbrand
1 iona
3 ichorid

4 careful study
4 LEDs
3 breakthrough
4 lootings
4 bridge frombelow
3 dread return
4 cabal therapy

I never have a problem game one. im posting cuz i need help with my sideboard. I havent updated it in a while and i'm finding my lack of an efficient sideboard is hurting my ability to play against other tier one decks. currently this is my sideboard

4 natures claim
4 leyline of the void
2 firestorms
1 blightsteel colossus
1 elesh norn
2 flayer of the hatebound
1 ancient grudge

my sideboard is horrible lol. any help would be muhc appreciated. the hate im used to seeing in my metagame is a lot of surgical extraction, as i playa lot against stoneblade and miracle decks. i also see a lot crop rotation and maverick typical hate like ooze and bog. but my main worry so far has been surgical extraction. i wanted to know if maybe what i should do is instead of including the extra dread return targets in the board maybe i should include nether shadows or ashen ghouls instead for a higher threat density ? what do you all think ?

[Mr. Froggy]

Hey all...

I've been playing dredge for a while now. And I love my build as it works for me. currently the list im running is ...

4 colisseum
4 mine
4 city of brass
1 tarnished citadel

4 imps
4 trolls
3 thugs
4 putrid imps
4 narcomoeba
1 griselbrand
1 iona
3 ichorid

4 careful study
3 breakthrough
4 lootings
4 bridge frombelow
3 dread return
4 cabal therapy

I never have a problem game one. im posting cuz i need help with my sideboard. I havent updated it in a while and i'm finding my lack of an efficient sideboard is hurting my ability to play against other tier one decks. currently this is my sideboard

4 natures claim
4 leyline of the void
2 firestorms
1 blightsteel colossus
1 elesh norn
2 flayer of the hatebound
1 ancient grudge

my sideboard is horrible lol. any help would be muhc appreciated. the hate im used to seeing in my metagame is a lot of surgical extraction, as i playa lot against stoneblade and miracle decks. i also see a lot crop rotation and maverick typical hate like ooze and bog. but my main worry so far has been surgical extraction. i wanted to know if maybe what i should do is instead of including the extra dread return targets in the board maybe i should include nether shadows or ashen ghouls instead for a higher threat density ? what do you all think ?

Does not having permanent-based discard (Tribe) hinder you at all? Or because of the Lootings and Careful Studies its fine?

[raikenxy]

Does not having permanent-based discard (Tribe) hinder you at all? Or because of the Lootings and Careful Studies its fine?

sorry i forgot to include the LED's in my original list. i run LED dredge, the only permanent discard i have is putrid imp

[TerribleTim68]

Took Dredge to my LGS yesterday.Mixed results, I think I suck. :frown:

List:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
1 Darkblast
4 Bridge From Below
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Dread Return
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tarnished Citadel
SB:
3 Firestorm
3 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Ashen Ghoul
1 Ichorid
2 Memory's Journey
1 card I can't recall :tongue:

Report:
Round 1 vs. Feline playing Zoo (recent SCGSeattle winner)
Game 1 I couldn't seem to get much going and an early Scavenging Ooze kinda wrecked me.
Side out some random stuff and bring in them Firestorms along with the Memory's Journeys. I typically side out singletons of stuff like Putrid Imp, Faithless Looting & Breakthrough. But I honestly don't recall what I sided out. This is probably the one thing I suck the most at.
Game 2 I managed to Cabal Therapy that Scavenging Ooze on turn 1 and it was pretty much a wrecking ball from there.
Game 3 the Scavenging Ooze hit the table, but not before I had established a pretty good position. I was somehow able to just keep moving forward through that Ooze and take my first win while staring down that little green bitch. I do recall at one point the Ooze targeted my Bridge From Below and I flashed back the Memory's Journey to shuffle all 3 of them that were in my yard back into my deck. Not sure it was the right play to choose all 3 of them but it seemed better than losing them to the Ooze and I think I dredged one or two right back out anyway.
Win 2-1
1-0

Round 2 vs Charles playing BUG Control:
Game 1 I didn't seem to get much going before staring down a Deathrite Shaman who quickly became problematic. Once his twin brother joined along with a Dark Confidant things got beyond all hope in a hurry.
Again siding out some random singletons for those Firestorms and Memory's Journeys.
Game 2 wasn't much different than Game 1. At one point I recall having to draw cards for several turns because my Bridge From Belows had been Extirpated and all my dredgers had been eaten by the Shaman. Even the Firestorm I tried to regain position with was met with a Flusterstorm I couldn't pay.
Loss 0-2
1-1

Round 3 vs Kade playing RiP/Helm (I'm guessing, I never actually saw the Helm):
Game 1, at this point I'm basically just not in the mood to even continue playing Magic since everyone seems ot be packing mad amounts of maindeck hate and clearly I didn't get the memo. I remember having a decent yard of about half my deck and some Zombies out when Kade slams down the Rest In Peace and I just scooped. I think I probably shouldn't have scooped because I did have the Zombie horde on the narch and might have gotten there before he found his win-con. But I had told myself "There really isn't any fun to be had here, if the RiP comes down I'm bouncing." And I did.
Game 2 I tried an early Cabal Therapy naming Rest In Peace only to find it wasn't in his hand, which told me that it would be coming later, once he drew into it and before I can Therapy for it. And wouldn't you know, I was right. About 2 turns later it landed and I scooped 'em up again.
Loss 0-2
1-2

At this point I debated bouncing early but several of the players talked me into staying one more round to finish out the tourney.
Round 3 vs random dude playing strange U/B deck. I still have no idea what he was trying to do.
Game 1 I did what dredge does on turn 2, ripped his hand apart and swung with a huge horde of hasted Zombies and my best friend Flame-Kin Zealot. This after he joked that he was about to get decimated by Dredge, he was right.
Game 2 was about to be basically the same thing, only looking at my hand it would take until turn 3. But on his turn 2 he noticed he had shuffled his sideboard in and not sided anything out so he scooped.
Win 2-0
2-2

Anyway, it wasn't my best outing but it is basically the way it goes every time I play Dredge at my LGS. I think I've gone 2-2 every time, I can't seem to get past that point with it. But honestly, I've been stuck at 2-2 for months now no matter what I play. I think I just suck at Magic. :frown: The only shining spot in the evening was beating Feline. Sorry, but you are the SCGSeattle winner so I'll take that as something.

[Michael Keller]

I'm curious, did you mulligan your hands at all? And if so, do you feel they were appropriate?

Deathrite Shaman should be the least of your worries when you just explode all over an opponent with LED and such. I mean, that situation doesn't always happen, but LED Dredge has a lot of raw power and I just can't tell for certain what you did without knowing if you mulliganed correctly.

That or your line of play to start the game off with in each of your match ups.

[TerribleTim68]

I'm curious, did you mulligan your hands at all? And if so, do you feel they were appropriate?
. . .

I did mull quite a few times. I will mull pretty agressively with this deck, I have no problem with that. If I don't have a dredger, a discard outlet OTHER than LeD and the land to play that out, I mull. I also do what I can to set up a Looting or a Breakthrough after the dredger is in the yard. Some times I have to use a Study or Looting to get them there, but I do what I can to set it up for after the dredger is there for the most value and quickest speed. But for what ever reason I just wasn't very fast this time. Outside of the games where I just erupted like a volcano, it felt very sluggish for some reason. There was really no in between.

I've tried to watch some of your video matches Hollywood. But it's hard to really get a sense of what you're doing without commentary. Maybe you can post some links to the good ones that might help me see the lines of play you're taking a bit better. I'm looking to try Manaless soon but I don't know that it'll be any better if I can't figure out this one first. I love this deck, it's a lot of fun to play. I just don't seem to be getting the results others are getting out of it.

[joemauer]

I just don't seem to be getting the results others are getting out of it.

I went 0-3 drop with Dredge at the some what recent Grand Prix in Atlanta.

Timo, one of the creators of Quadlazer(I believe?), seemed to have ditched Dredge in favor of ANT.

Dredge hasn't made any Starcitygames top eights recently despite being played by a lot of players.

It isn't even a Deck to Beat at the moment.

Dredge is not an easy deck to play. The deck punishes you when you don't mulligan enough and sometimes punishes you when mulligan too much. It can sometimes lose to a topdecked Scavenging Ooze or Tormod's Crypt despite perfect play. It can poop on you when all you need to dredge is a Narcomoeba or Bridge from Below. Sometimes it mulls to oblivion no matter how you have built the deck.

Being 2-2 while having to play a RiP deck isn't that bad. You will only get better with deck the more you play it. I have been playing dredge since it was a deck in Standard and I still make mistakes with it. I always learn something new about the deck everytime I play it.

[TerribleTim68]

Well, I appreciate that. Thanks for the comment Joe. The RiP deck plus the Ooze deck was a bit of a challenge. I was happy to win through Ooze, but then facing Shaman and RiP in the next two rounds was a bit taxing on my mental state and abilities with the deck.

[Isaac]

I might make a couple last minuet changes but as of right now I'm gonna stick to my guns and play this Saturday for some duals.

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 undiscovered paradise

4 Lion's Eye Diamond

3 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough

4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichoird
3 Cabal Therapy

3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp

4 Putrid Imp
2 Dread Return
1 flame kin zelot
1 Gristlebane

sb

4 leyline of the void
3 firestorm
3 natures claim
2 ancient grudge
1 elesh norn
1 iona
1 ichori

[sherko7]

I went 0-3 drop with Dredge at the some what recent Grand Prix in Atlanta.

Timo, one of the creators of Quadlazer(I believe?), seemed to have ditched Dredge in favor of ANT.

Dredge hasn't made any Starcitygames top eights recently despite being played by a lot of players.

It isn't even a Deck to Beat at the moment.

Dredge is not an easy deck to play. The deck punishes you when you don't mulligan enough and sometimes punishes you when mulligan too much. It can sometimes lose to a topdecked Scavenging Ooze or Tormod's Crypt despite perfect play. It can poop on you when all you need to dredge is a Narcomoeba or Bridge from Below. Sometimes it mulls to oblivion no matter how you have built the deck.

Being 2-2 while having to play a RiP deck isn't that bad. You will only get better with deck the more you play it. I have been playing dredge since it was a deck in Standard and I still make mistakes with it. I always learn something new about the deck everytime I play it.

+1000 to this! Sure, the deck can go autopilot at times and win in the hands of even the beginners. But it takes a certain amount of skill and knowledge of the format to start top 8-ing with it consistently. Sure, you can luck out and get the best matchups. But relying on that can only take you so far. Post board play with the deck takes some time to really get the hang of. Decisions made post board (not during boarding, as I now find it pretty straight forward) is very crucial. The deck may not be the hardest deck to play in the format, but it definitely isn't an easy one.

[Mr. Froggy]

Finally my LED list is done!

Dredgers:
4x GGT
4x Thug
4x Imp

Draw:
4x Looting
3x Study
4x Breakthrough

Free:
4x Narcomoeba
2x Ichorid (might bump to 3)
4x Bridge

Return Package:
2x Return
1x FKZ

Discard:
4x PImp
4x Therapy
4x LED

Land:
4x Coliseum
4x Mine
4x City

SB:
1x Ichorid
1x Elesh
1x Iona
2x Revelation
4x Nature's Claim
4x Grudge
2x Darkblast

Let me know what you guys think! :)

I'm all for criticism. :)

[Vandalize]

Finally my LED list is done!

Dredgers:
4x GGT
4x Thug
4x Imp

Draw:
4x Looting
3x Study
4x Breakthrough

Free:
4x Narcomoeba
2x Ichorid (might bump to 3)
4x Bridge

Return Package:
2x Return
1x FKZ

Discard:
4x PImp
4x Therapy
4x LED

Land:
4x Coliseum
4x Mine
4x City

SB:
1x Ichorid
1x Elesh
1x Iona
2x Revelation
4x Nature's Claim
4x Grudge
2x Darkblast

Let me know what you guys think! :)

I'm all for criticism. :)

Definetely needs more lands in the sideboard. You'll be able to cast Grudge and Nature's Claim with 8-gold lands once in a lifetime. Add 3 Tarnished Citadels in the place of 1 Ray of Revelation and 2 Ancient Grudge.

[Mr. Froggy]

I was wondering if I should play my own grave-hate in the SB? I have a bunch of anti-hate, but should I run my own? Funny aside, I just got rid of most of my own Citadels lol...

[Mindlash]

Finally my LED list is done!

Dredgers:
4x GGT
4x Thug
4x Imp

Draw:
4x Looting
3x Study
4x Breakthrough

Free:
4x Narcomoeba
2x Ichorid (might bump to 3)
4x Bridge

Return Package:
2x Return
1x FKZ

Discard:
4x PImp
4x Therapy
4x LED

Land:
4x Coliseum
4x Mine
4x City

SB:
1x Ichorid
1x Elesh
1x Iona
2x Revelation
4x Nature's Claim
4x Grudge
2x Darkblast

Let me know what you guys think! :)

I'm all for criticism. :)

I would never cut a study effect. You may cut a breakthrough here because dredge wins g1 most of the time and you will sideout out the breakthrough in boarding games. Study is a card I never side out because it can dig for antihate and does something on its own. Breakthrough is a very powerful card but it might be to all-in for some boarding games (e.g. It does nothing against leyline while study digs for claim).

I would also never go below 3 ichorids. You have 3 after boarding which is a good thing but you might switch it with fkz or get rid of fkz at all. Might be personal taste but I do not like fkz. If I was ever to maindeck targets it would be grisel if I use 1 target. If I need an additional maindeck targdt I may think about fkz but would probably take flayer instead cuz he bypasses prisons or opposing zombies while being less dependant on bridges. My suggestion would be DR-less though but I do not want to force you into my preferences :-)

What are the darkblasts, grudges and rays for in your meta? Darkblast may be used 1 main instead of 1 thug to save some sb space for additional lands. I dont like drawing 2 citadels here. Same goes for paradise. You might want to go with a split here. Mine is 2 paradise 1 citadels right now. Ray have not been needed in a long time now.

4 grudges seem a bit to much. If you also use them to force a tormods crypt use by your opponent you might also get another threats in like ghouls or shadows which can force a crypt too in addition to be helpful against extractions.

Hope that helps
Mindlash

[Mindlash]

Finally my LED list is done!

Dredgers:
4x GGT
4x Thug
4x Imp

Draw:
4x Looting
3x Study
4x Breakthrough

Free:
4x Narcomoeba
2x Ichorid (might bump to 3)
4x Bridge

Return Package:
2x Return
1x FKZ

Discard:
4x PImp
4x Therapy
4x LED

Land:
4x Coliseum
4x Mine
4x City

SB:
1x Ichorid
1x Elesh
1x Iona
2x Revelation
4x Nature's Claim
4x Grudge
2x Darkblast

Let me know what you guys think! :)

I'm all for criticism. :)

I would never cut a study effect. You may cut a breakthrough here because dredge wins g1 most of the time and you will sideout out the breakthrough in boarding games. Study is a card I never side out because it can dig for antihate and does something on its own. Breakthrough is a very powerful card but it might be to all-in for some boarding games (e.g. It does nothing against leyline while study digs for claim).

I would also never go below 3 ichorids. You have 3 after boarding which is a good thing but you might switch it with fkz or get rid of fkz at all. Might be personal taste but I do not like fkz. If I was ever to maindeck targets it would be grisel if I use 1 target. If I need an additional maindeck targdt I may think about fkz but would probably take flayer instead cuz he bypasses prisons or opposing zombies while being less dependant on bridges. My suggestion would be DR-less though but I do not want to force you into my preferences :-)

What are the darkblasts, grudges and rays for in your meta? Darkblast may be used 1 main instead of 1 thug to save some sb space for additional lands. I dont like drawing 2 citadels here. Same goes for paradise. You might want to go with a split here. Mine is 2 paradise 1 citadels right now. Ray have not been needed in a long time now.

4 grudges seem a bit to much. If you also use them to force a tormods crypt use by your opponent you might also get another threats in like ghouls or shadows which can force a crypt too in addition to be helpful against extractions.

Hope that helps
Mindlash

[Mr. Froggy]

In all honesty, my SB is a mish-mash of what I've seen online, I just added more than normal, lol. It's just because I haven't tested post-board games as much as I should, so I told myself if I add a lot of cards, I can just chip away and sculpt the SB how I want it.

I was actually thinking about putting the 4th Study back in, but I love Breakthrough... Might need to try it out though.

[Anusien]

I would run the 4th Careful Study before I run the 4th Breakthrough. You can keep Careful Study + Careful Study hands but you can't keep Breakthrough + Breakthrough hands; the ones with 4 Careful Study 4 Breakthrough will mulligan less.

[Mr. Froggy]

Dumb question, how does one win using Flayer? Return it the return a huge GGT? Am I missing something?

[Mindlash]

Dumb question, how does one win using Flayer? Return it the return a huge GGT? Am I missing something?

Yep thats it. You return Flayer for 4 damage, sac him and two other dudes to return a GGT. Flayer returns due to undying and deals another 5. GGT enters the battlefield and does hopefully 11 :-)

Flayer turns all your Ichorids into Lightning Bolts which can be very nice sometimes :-)

Thing is...you should have one more DR as needed. For a Flayerkill it would be optimal to have 3 DR. In your case with FKZ two are enough cuz you need only 1 DR to win. I've seen people with flayer and just 2 DR but it seems a bit unreliable to me...especially to kill your opponent the turn you try to return flayer with just 2 DR in deck.



I would run the 4th Careful Study before I run the 4th Breakthrough. You can keep Careful Study + Careful Study hands but you can't keep Breakthrough + Breakthrough hands; the ones with 4 Careful Study 4 Breakthrough will mulligan less.

What he says. I would run 12 studies if I were allowed to do so. I would never play less then the 8 allowed studies.



SB:
1x Ichorid
1x Elesh
1x Iona
2x Revelation
4x Nature's Claim
4x Grudge
2x Darkblast


If you stick to DR I think Elesh and Iona are good targets to use. You can cover most needs with them.

Darkblast might me something for you if you encounter Peacekeeper often. But then again I would run him main over the 4th thug as I mentioned above. I don't see other uses for it as of now...at least not in my meta.

Revelation might me something against moat, propaganda, elefant grass and the like. I used it in the past because we had two regular enchantress players running around and one of my friends played it too. Other then that I never used it. It does not help against leylines obviously.

1 or 2 Grudges might also be enough. I mainly board it against Belcher, ANT and the like to kill their Cannon and LED's which they usually play to safe them from my therapies. It can also help against Batterskull, Ensnaring Bridge and so on.

Greetings Mindlash

[Mr. Froggy]

I got myself a Flayer and an extra Dread Return because I want to try out the Flayer kill.

Also, I have 3 Coffin Purges so -2 Ancient Grudge -1 Ray +3 Coffin Purges? It's just I think I might need my own graveyard hate. :)

[joemauer]

I got myself a Flayer and an extra Dread Return because I want to try out the Flayer kill.

Also, I have 3 Coffin Purges so -2 Ancient Grudge -1 Ray +3 Coffin Purges? It's just I think I might need my own graveyard hate. :)

If you feel as if you need graveyard hate then run the playset of Leylines. Any other graveyard hate is usually just Sideboard filler.

[Mr. Froggy]

I'm trying to find a way to fit in my Flayer... The list seems so tight, its hard to remove and add cards...

I'm trying to fit in both a Dread Return AND a Flayer, and all I can think of is moving the FKZ, but after that... Maybe a Therapy..?

Didn't think it was going to be THIS complicated. :P

[Mindlash]

I'm trying to find a way to fit in my Flayer... The list seems so tight, its hard to remove and add cards...

I'm trying to fit in both a Dread Return AND a Flayer, and all I can think of is moving the FKZ, but after that... Maybe a Therapy..?

Didn't think it was going to be THIS complicated. :P

You might want to try Andos flayer list from the starting post. He finished top8 at gp indy with it. After the tournament he cut the firestorms for 1 fairy, 1 vapor and a sphinx of lost truth.

Its better to make your own board and probably maindeck but I think this one might be a good point to start :-)

Greetings Chris

[Mr. Froggy]

You might want to try Andos flayer list from the starting post. He finished top8 at gp indy with it. After the tournament he cut the firestorms for 1 fairy, 1 vapor and a sphinx of lost truth.

Its better to make your own board and probably maindeck but I think this one might be a good point to start :-)

Greetings Chris

I did just that. :P

After I told myself I'd cut a Therapy, I checked the Primer, and the numbers match up pretty good.

I goldfished the deck, and I'm liking what I'm seeing. Winning without needing the combat phase is pretty awesome. I also noticed that one can sac the Flayer to Return a GGT, and here comes a question, can I stack the CIP triggers in my favour to deal damage with the GGT AND the Undying Flayer?

[joemauer]

I did just that. :P

After I told myself I'd cut a Therapy, I checked the Primer, and the numbers match up pretty good.

I goldfished the deck, and I'm liking what I'm seeing. Winning without needing the combat phase is pretty awesome. I also noticed that one can sac the Flayer to Return a GGT, and here comes a question, can I stack the CIP triggers in my favour to deal damage with the GGT AND the Undying Flayer?

I just rechecked out Ando's list. It does seem like a good starting point for Dredge with Dread Return in it. I personally would swap the Tarnished Citadel for a Grisselbrand but that's just me.

Also, don't use Ando's sideboard as it is quite outdated.


@Hollywood: Just skimmed through the primer and noticed the Quadlazer list needs a small update. It now runs three Ashen Ghouls and -1 Ancient Grudge, -1 Memory's Journey, and -1 Ray of Revelation. I believe.
Edit: -1 Tarnished Citadel and +1 Undiscovered Paradise.

Speaking of the Quadlazer list, I haven't heard much from the Germans that used to frequent these forums. Has there been little success with Dredge over there lately? Any new tech being tested over there?

[Mr. Froggy]

What's the correct number of Dredgers a list should have? I run 12, and I have been having trouble chaining my Dredges...

[CabalTherapy]

Speaking of the Quadlazer list, I haven't heard much from the Germans that used to frequent these forums. Has there been little success with Dredge over there lately? Any new tech being tested over there?

Not in my area. I did not play Dredge for about 1,5 years but I will play it next Saturday in a bigger event. My list will be:

4 LED
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
2 Careful Study
4 GG Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 FK Zealot
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Undiscovered Paradise

I'm not shure about the amount of draw spells needed (Looting, Study, Breakthrough). Last time I' ve played this deck was before Looting was printed.

[Fizzeler]

I'll be playing Dredge at the Open tomorrow, should be fun expecting a lot of RUG and Stoneblade

[Isaac]

What's the correct number of Dredgers a list should have? I run 12, and I have been having trouble chaining my Dredges... Most list I've ran across has 11 dredgers. 4 stink 4 troll and 3 thug

[Isaac]

Went 3/2 at a local tournament today. lost to a mono black rogue deck and stifle naught.

[Michael Keller]

I'll be playing Dredge at the Open tomorrow, should be fun expecting a lot of RUG and Stoneblade

Good luck! Unfortunately I won't be able to make it.

[Michael Keller]

Massive update to the primer including information, videos, articles and how to fight hate! (More to come soon.)

My next week's article is going to be an all-out Dredge piece!

[sconnell]

Massive update to the primer including information, videos, articles and how to fight hate! (More to come soon.)

Great! Perhaps the primer should briefly mention the "fearless" strategy in the "dredge hit men" section, as a part of the deck's history. Something like:

"Fearless" Dredge
For a time, some players (for example Richard Feldman) advocated playing no anti-hate cards in the sideboard, on the basis that (i) bringing in anti-hate dilutes the deck and you can generally win through hate and (ii) the chance of actually running into Leyline of the Void, which you can't win through, is low. This approach has lost support since (i) the printing of Faithless Looting, which makes it more feasible to draw into anti-hate cards and (ii) the printing of Grafdigger's Cage and Rest in Peace, which makes the chance of running into Leyline-level hate much higher.

This makes it a bit easier to understand the lack of anti-hate in some of the older decklists linked at the start of the article.

Maybe there's a bit more room for Cabal Therapy usage discussion. I don't recall where I read it first, but I think a reasonable rule of thumb is "name the worst possible thing that the opponent could feasibly have in their hand and do something with next turn." This tries to avoid the worst possible outcome, and probably means you get another turn, where you might dredge into another therapy, or more brokenness.

That said, these are just suggestions and the primer's looking great.

[ESG]

Maybe there's a bit more room for Cabal Therapy usage discussion. I don't recall where I read it first, but I think a reasonable rule of thumb is "name the worst possible thing that the opponent could feasibly have in their hand and do something with next turn."

I believe this was 4eak's advice.

[Isaac]

I've been running 3 therapies as of late and I don't miss the 4th ever. I also wanna say that in my current meta I need to switch up the two artifact hate cards for two ray's.

[Vandalize]

HAHAHA, I love the way people are arguing that Rest in Peace is the best graveyard hate ever printed. That Dredge is hosed big time, as well as Maverick and other graveyard dependant archtypes.

I've been playing Quadlaser for some months now, and every time I've faced Rest in Peace, either it came down when I had a strong board position (a.k.a 4+ Zombies), or it didn't show up at all. Hopefully people will not stop playing it, since a turn 2 hate isn't going to harm Dredge (maybe on the play).

My latest list:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
3 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Faithless Looting

SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Ashen Ghoul
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Putrid Imp
SB: 1 Undiscovered Paradise
SB: 1 Ray of Revelation (haven't casted in 3 months, maybe switching for the Firestorm#4)

Seems fine. Haven't fizzeled chain dredging in a good while, and Surgical is my dog. Tormod's and Bojuka Bog gives me a little struggle when I keep slow hands, but they're managable.

[sconnell]

HAHAHA, I love the way people are arguing that Rest in Peace is the best graveyard hate ever printed. That Dredge is hosed big time, as well as Maverick and other graveyard dependant archtypes.

I've been playing Quadlaser for some months now, and every time I've faced Rest in Peace, either it came down when I had a strong board position (a.k.a 4+ Zombies), or it didn't show up at all. Hopefully people will not stop playing it, since a turn 2 hate isn't going to harm Dredge (maybe on the play).

People do tend to assume that the sky is falling every time a good new anti-graveyard hate gets printed. I can't imagine they would print a piece of graveyard hate so powerful that nobody would ever play dredge again.

Really good dredge hate would need to:
(i) be cheap - so you have a chance at actually using it before dredge can kill you or therapy it away
(ii) affect the whole graveyard
(iii) affect future dredges and not just the current GY - otherwise dredge can just recover and start dredging again
(iic) affect other decks - because sideboard slots are a limited resource. Ideally, it would be maindeckable.
(v) be accessible - ie the card is tutorable or has some mechanism for accessing it early
(vi) affect stuff in play - to deal with the "4 zombies already in play" type situation
(vii) be resilient - and not easily removed by cards dredge plays or can board in

I don't think (vi) or (vii) will ever actually happen with a card that does many of those other things, so it's probably not realistic to expect a cheap anti-GY card with (v) or (vi).

All anti-GY hate cards are missing some of the above. For example, Leyline of the Void is arguably the cheapest and most accessible piece of hate, but it's very narrow. Tormod's/Bog are wraths, which you can often play around and recover from quickly.

I think you're underrating RiP in u/w, which can be a difficult matchup for dredge. RiP main means you don't have the usual game 1 advantage. Between Enlightening Tutor, Top, Brainstorm and fetches, they have a number of ways to get to RiP early. Force of Will means they have a chance at disrupting your early plays. They also probably have Terminus, which can clean up any stuff you do have in play, locking up the game if they do have RiP. That said, this is just one deck - and it looks like the more miracle-focused u/w decks are becoming more popular than the ones that play RiP.

[CabalTherapy]

4 LED
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
2 Careful Study
4 GG Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast
4 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
1 FK Zealot
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Nature's Claim
4 Ancient Grudge
1 Rey of Revelation
1 Contagion
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Terestadon
1 Ancestor's Chosen
2 Tarnished Citadel

I went 5-1-1 with this list in a 74 players-tournament yesterday.
1. Round: BG goodstuff 2:0
2. Round: Bant 2:1
3. Round: Reanimator 2:1
4. Round: Canadian 2:1
5. Round: 4c goodstuff 0:2
6. Round: Nic Fit 2:1
7. Round: ID

Quarterfinals: Storm 2:1
Semi-finals: Canadian 1:2

List was very stable, only thing I would change the FKZ with the Iona. She is mightier than FKZ.
Got a Revised Tropical Island.

[Michael Keller]

New article about Dredge (http://jupitergames.info/articles/2012/52467/the-cutting-room-floor-he-brand-and-the-masters-of-the-dredgeverse) is up!

[Gocho]

Thanks!

[joretapo]

Nice one

I m a control player at heart but have been eager to try some sort of combo deck for a while. your first article on manaless dredge pushed me over the edge : cheap combo deck with a totally weird mechanic i love it ;)
Thkx m8

[Mr. Froggy]

Awesome article Hollywood! Great read!

[Michael Keller]

Awesome article Hollywood! Great read!

Thanks, man.

It really was just a refresher and more like an introduction for newer players that want to try it out.

[Anusien]

What's the correct number of Dredgers a list should have? I run 12, and I have been having trouble chaining my Dredges...
Right now, 12. If they print another good one, pretty sure it becomes 16.

[Tammit67]

Right now, 12. If they print another good one, pretty sure it becomes 16.

My 12th right now is Darkblast, and its been pretty sweet. No you won't swords my ichorid, I'm getting tokens dammit. (Among other things)

[TerribleTim68]

. . . No you won't swords my ichorid, I'm getting tokens dammit. (Among other things)

LOL! Awesome play! Mental note time! :cool:

[sconnell]

New article about Dredge (http://jupitergames.info/articles/2012/52467/the-cutting-room-floor-he-brand-and-the-masters-of-the-dredgeverse) is up!

I'm looking forward to the Cabal Therapy article - as you say, it's one of the most potent but also most hard to play cards in the deck.

[Mr. Froggy]

I played Dredge at my LGS, finished 4th.. out of 5...
Burn, ANT, StoneBlade, Turbo Eldrazi, Dredge

Round 1
Burn: 1-2 (was about to win in our 3rd game)

Round 2
BYE

Round 3
ANT: 1-2
One of THE weirdest matches ever in the history of me playing..

Game 1: Ichorid beats into Flayer win.
Game 2: He draws a billion cards, nothing. And wins shortly.
Game 3: Nothing important.

[Michael Keller]

I'm looking forward to the Cabal Therapy article - as you say, it's one of the most potent but also most hard to play cards in the deck.

Article (http://jupitergames.info/articles/2012/52501/the-cutting-room-floor-group-therapy) is up.

[CabalTherapy]

Article (http://jupitergames.info/articles/2012/52501/the-cutting-room-floor-group-therapy) is up.

Nice one.
I am a fan of this card (just look at my nickname here). In my last tournament I won against Storm in the Quarterfinals naming "Cabal Ritual" and hitting two of them.
If someone is interested, I can write a report of this tournament in detail. (Lost in the Semifinals in the Top8 after 7 Rounds, 74 players.)

[teonsw]

I just recently switched from Manaless Dredge and i am currently running the LED list in the primer. I am curious if anyone knows what cards are now in Ando's sideboard. In addition, is Leyline in our sideboard a good or bad thing? If anyone could give me some sample boards they are running i would really appreciate it!

[Mr. Froggy]

I just recently switched from Manaless Dredge and i am currently running the LED list in the primer. I am curious if anyone knows what cards are now in Ando's sideboard. In addition, is Leyline in our sideboard a good or bad thing? If anyone could give me some sample boards they are running i would really appreciate it!

I run Ando's list also, a bit different on the numbers though.

My SB:
4x Nature's Claim
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Ray of Revelation
3x Coffin Purge
1x Darkblast
1x Elesh
1x Iona
1x Ichorid

Its not the best sb, but it works for me.

[raikenxy]

I just recently switched from Manaless Dredge and i am currently running the LED list in the primer. I am curious if anyone knows what cards are now in Ando's sideboard. In addition, is Leyline in our sideboard a good or bad thing? If anyone could give me some sample boards they are running i would really appreciate it!

The sideboard i use is

4 natures claims
2 firestorms
4 leyline of the void
1 elesh norn
1 flayer of the hatebound
1 ichorid
1 cabal therapy
1 ancient grudge


generally after i win game one, if they are ANY deck that is not maverick or running maindeck deathrite shaman, i board in 4 claims and an ichorid, removing 3 breakthroughs 1 thug and one putrid imp. i've won a lot fo game two's doing this jsut because the most common hate i've ever come in contact with is a tormod's crypt, relic, or leyline of the void. personally these are in my opinion the easiest but LAZIEST forms of hate we see as dredge players and are easily just played around. bringing the extra ichorid ( i run two preboard ) helps set u up for what will be grind games.

against maverick, i really just bring in the two firestorm, elesh norn, and the xtra cabal therapy. you can pretty much just race them based on my experience. outside of surgical extraction they can't interact with you on your turn until they get a hate monster on the field like ooze deathrite or militant. just abusing this knowledge should help you get the win. remember that cabal therapy is a GREAT weapon for fighting hate. especially against maverick, you'd be surprised how often you'll hit green sun's zenith with a blind therapy.

leyline has saved me many times. a lot of the time reanimator players just don''t expect you to have it. i find it fits our mulligan heavy strategy perfectly and i dont have any problem running four in my sideboard. they're great in the mirrior match too obviously haha

[teonsw]

The sideboard i use is

4 natures claims
2 firestorms
4 leyline of the void
1 elesh norn
1 flayer of the hatebound
1 ichorid
1 cabal therapy
1 ancient grudge


Raikenxy could you post your list, I see that your running 1 ichorid side board. Is that because you run 3 main

[raikenxy]

Raikenxy could you post your list, I see that your running 1 ichorid side board. Is that because you run 3 main

sure no problem.

creatures

4 golgari thug
4 golgari grave troll
4 stinkweed imp
2 ichorid
4 narcomoeba
1 griselbrand
1 flame-kin zealot
4 putrid imp

instants/sorcery/enchantment

3 faithless looting
4 careful study
3 breakthrough
3 cabal therapy
2 dread return
4 bridge from below

artifacts

4 LED

lands

4 collisseum
4 gemstone mine
4 city of brass
1 tarnished citadel

i used to run 3 ichorid's main deck, but after a while i started noticing i would draw ichorid in my opening hand often... and honestly i hate seeing it in my first 7 -_-... i'd much rather just mill into it. game 1 never lasts long enough for ichorid to mean much of anything, it's a recurring beater yeah... but if i mill the first thirty cards of my library it rally doesnt matter that much. ichorid is prlly the slowest factor of the deck game one, not saying it is not usefu, god no. ichorid for me jsut always seem's much more important in games two and three then it does game one. such the reason i only run two maindeck

[feline]

In honor of the Dredge deck & fellow Dredgers.

For myself I have turned my dredge deck in, even though it's alot of fun and such a different perspective on the game with what it does, & doesn't do. Out of all my decks dredge is one of the ones I have not been playing lately even at the local store / weekly level. The hate is just a pain on top of the stuff people are already maindecking now like Scavenging ooze's / Deathrite shamans, etc. The deck is still explosive though and on the play can still go off through even that when it's fast, but my local metagames always have people packing graveyard hate. I did manage about a year ago to get a couple wins with dredge but it came with about half a dozen failed attempts at 1st, netting 3-1 & 2-2 records.

In defense of dredge, especially with environments unprepared, the deck is awesome, and in a place where people haven't seen it before, some are almost awestruck the first time they see it, asking questions and watching games because "it is just a crazy deck" there are also some decks that dredge just eats, any deck that has no main deck interaction, has to dedicate sideboard slots & even then, there's no guarantee on their end, they will likely have to win 2 sideboard games & they might even have to mulligan aggressively to get to what they sideboarded in.

So for those of you still dredging, keep fighting through the hate, & keep on dredging!

[KobeBryan]

Anyone have a recent decklist i can copy to playtest against?

[joemauer]

Anyone have a recent decklist i can copy to playtest against?

Why?

Dredge isn't a deck to beat right now. No need to test against it.

And you can free up some of your sideboard space by removing that graveyard hate.:smile:

[KobeBryan]

Why?

Dredge isn't a deck to beat right now. No need to test against it.

And you can free up some of your sideboard space by removing that graveyard hate.:smile:

True, but in so cal, there are always gy strategies. One tournament I went to when 3 months ago had 4 dredge decks out of 20 people

And i faced dredge three times that day.

[feline]

This might help.
4th palce - Dan Walton - StarCityGames.com Legacy Open 2012-12-02 Baltimore:
Creatures (22)
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
Lands (14)
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise
Spells (24)
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below
1 Darkblast
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
3 Nether Shadow
1 Terastodon
2 Firestorm
3 Nature's Claim
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
2 Dread Return

[Mr. Froggy]

Why are people panicking over Dredge? Has it always been that way? It might not be a DTB atm, but even with all the gy-hate running around, I believe in the hands of a competent player (a la Hollywood) its still an awesome choice.

[Michael Keller]

Why are people panicking over Dredge? Has it always been that way? It might not be a DTB atm, but even with all the gy-hate running around, I believe in the hands of a competent player (a la Hollywood) its still an awesome choice.

If people just sat down with the damn thing, sorted a stock list out and gold-fished a few hundred pre and post-board hands they would be fine.

The hardest games to win with Dredge are obviously games two and three. This is where you have to have experience in tournament play to make playing it worth your while. Yeah, the deck gets stupid hands and wins games without interaction sometimes. But when you're in round six or seven of an eight or nine-round tournament and need a "win and in," you had better believe your opponent is (probably) competent enough to at least give you trouble if you put the deck on autopilot and think you're going to cruise to the elimination rounds. Not gonna happen.

Every time I pick up Manaless Dredge and play it I go into each match assuming my opponent is prepared and capable enough of beating me flat out. I play each hand tight - super tight. I stay humble in the face of my opponents and give each and every one of them the benefit of the doubt. But you have to fucking practice. Longevity is what makes you a better player with any deck, and while it appears on paper to be easy to play, it just really isn't. Graveyard hate has shit to do with keeping the deck down; it's poor piloting. And until people start realizing that they will continue to under-perform with it in large events.

If you're new to playing it and want to master it, test it in three phases like I did:

Phase One: Play a few hundred hands pre-board by yourself until you get comfortable with making decisions and how the deck works. Have a metagamed sideboard prepared for later.
Phase Two: Find a friend and test a gauntlet through each competitive deck in the format pre-board. Do this until you're comfortable playing against those decks.
Phase Three: Assess each match-up's strengths and weaknesses and build a list of what to bring in and what to take out. Then test against the same gauntlet post-board until you've got a feel for what to sub in and out and make adjustments as needed.

Remember: in a tournament, you have to win two games to win a match. This might mean having to play three games, which means that there's a reasonable chance that 66.7% of your individual rounds in a tournament will include sideboard cards (games two and three).

Think of playing Dredge like playing a guitar. It's not that hard to play Major (easier | game one) chords once you get them down, but in order to get better you have to combine those chords to ultimately make an entire song (harder | games two and three). If you want to make your song good, you need to decide what chords work well together. This necessitates practice, something you have to have if you want to succeed at this game - and Dredge in particular.

[Que]

Phase Two: Find a friend and test a gauntlet through each competitive deck in the format pre-board.
Phase Three: Assess each match-up's strengths and weaknesses and build a list of what to bring in and what to take out. Then test against the same gauntlet post-board until you've got a feel for what to sub in and out and make adjustments as needed.


Seems to me these phases are most difficult. No one wants to sit through any of this. xD

[KobeBryan]

Seems to me these phases are most difficult. No one wants to sit through any of this. xD

This is what separates men from boys.

[Que]

This is what separates men from boys.

Are you volunteering? >:]

[raikenxy]

If people just sat down with the damn thing, sorted a stock list out and gold-fished a few hundred pre and post-board hands they would be fine.

The hardest games to win with Dredge are obviously games two and three. This is where you have to have experience in tournament play to make playing it worth your while. Yeah, the deck gets stupid hands and wins games without interaction sometimes. But when you're in round six or seven of an eight or nine-round tournament and need a "win and in," you had better believe your opponent is (probably) competent enough to at least give you trouble if you put the deck on autopilot and think you're going to cruise to the elimination rounds. Not gonna happen.

Every time I pick up Manaless Dredge and play it I go into each match assuming my opponent is prepared and capable enough of beating me flat out. I play each hand tight - super tight. I stay humble in the face of my opponents and give each and every one of them the benefit of the doubt. But you have to fucking practice. Longevity is what makes you a better player with any deck, and while it appears on paper to be easy to play, it just really isn't. Graveyard hate has shit to do with keeping the deck down; it's poor piloting. And until people start realizing that they will continue to under-perform with it in large events.

If you're new to playing it and want to master it, test it in three phases like I did:

Phase One: Play a few hundred hands pre-board by yourself until you get comfortable with making decisions and how the deck works. Have a metagamed sideboard prepared for later.
Phase Two: Find a friend and test a gauntlet through each competitive deck in the format pre-board. Do this until you're comfortable playing against those decks.
Phase Three: Assess each match-up's strengths and weaknesses and build a list of what to bring in and what to take out. Then test against the same gauntlet post-board until you've got a feel for what to sub in and out and make adjustments as needed.

Remember: in a tournament, you have to win two games to win a match. This might mean having to play three games, which means that there's a reasonable chance that 66.7% of your individual rounds in a tournament will include sideboard cards (games two and three).

Think of playing Dredge like playing a guitar. It's not that hard to play Major (easier | game one) chords once you get them down, but in order to get better you have to combine those chords to ultimately make an entire song (harder | games two and three). If you want to make your song good, you need to decide what chords work well together. This necessitates practice, something you have to have if you want to succeed at this game - and Dredge in particular.


i agree with you completely about poor piloting being the primary obstacle to deck. When I first put dredge together i thought the most fun and best way to play was just simply blowing people out turn by turn by making the most explosive plays possible. I used to get killed by people playing relative gy hate such as crypt and relic and leyline. i just had no diea how to bet these hate pieces. but honestly over time, and practice, it becomes so much easier. graveyard hate is really more of a nuisance then anthing. the level ofpatience required to play dredge is underrated, and the new flavors of the month of the month in RIP and Deathrite shaman are not dredge killers. deathrite shaman is too slow against us to do anything meaningful game one anyway, and rest in peace come down on turn TWO. both irrelevent game one. and we already have answers to both of these threats in our sideboards anyway. Firestorm is pretty damn good against any hate thats creature based, and rest in peace still dies to nature's claim. dredge wont be going anywhere, if anything these new pieces will just be another false sense of security non dredge players can hide behind

[Godmode]

Looks like Nicholas Rausch is back with a neat Manaless Dredge decklist for the StarCityGames.com Legacy Open in Columbus.

Deck Tech: Manaless Dredge with Nick Rausch (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_manaless_dredge_with.html) from StarCityGames.com


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxNvIaiN22A&feature=player_embedded


2 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
3 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
3 Griselbrand
4 Dryad Arbor

4 Bridge from Below
3 Contagion
1 Sickening Shoal
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return

Sideboard:
3 Nature's Claim
3 Noxious Revival
2 Sickening Shoal
4 Reverent Silence
1 Forest
2 Verdant Catacomb

Source: StarCityGames.com

[Godmode]

More good news...

Also, with a rather standard LED Dredge list, Timothy Froehlig made it through day 1 undefeated at the Grand Prix Denver (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpden13/welcome).


Froehlig's Decklist:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp

3 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Careful Study
1 Darkblast
2 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Tormod's Crypt

Sideboard:
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Angel of Despair
1 Dread Return
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Firestorm
1 Ichorid
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Nature's Claim
1 Ray of Revelation



http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/events/gpden13/Dredge.jpg

Source: Wizards.com

[TerribleTim68]

Looks like Nicholas Rausch is back with a neat Manaless Dredge decklist...

Fwiw - That list is actually Hollywood's list that he's been developing for a very long time now.

[Godmode]

Fwiw - That list is actually Hollywood's list that he's been developing for a very long time now.

Thanks for pointing that. I actually realized that and found weird that Nick didn't mention Michael Keller (a.k.a. Hollywood) at all, but it didn't bother me much because Nick never mentioned that he "created" the list.

[DarkJester]

More good news...

Also, with a rather standard LED Dredge list, Timothy Froehlig made it through day 1 undefeated at the Grand Prix Denver (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpden13/welcome).


Froehlig's Decklist:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp

3 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Careful Study
1 Darkblast
2 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Tormod's Crypt

Sideboard:
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Angel of Despair
1 Dread Return
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Firestorm
1 Ichorid
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Nature's Claim
1 Ray of Revelation



http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/events/gpden13/Dredge.jpg

Source: Wizards.com

I don't understand this list. Why does he play 2 Tormods MAIN?

[Mr. Froggy]

And people were worried Dredge was dead? :) I'm happy about this :)

[joemauer]

I don't understand this list. Why does he play 2 Tormods MAIN?

Tech against Bug?

[igri_is_a_bk]

The picture is not the same as that list. I'm unsure if that is intentional or not. I see Paradise in the picture, but that's not anywhere in the 75. Maybe those Crypts were a typo, and are supposed to be lands?

[MRmtg]

Thanks for pointing that. I actually realized that and found weird that Nick didn't mention Michael Keller (a.k.a. Hollywood) at all, but it didn't bother me much because Nick never mentioned that he "created" the list.

i actually talked to nick about that at columbus..he said he got the deck off of the source...

[KobeBryan]

i actually talked to nick about that at columbus..he said he got the deck off of the source...

He really doesn't wanna give hollywood credit.

Anyways.

Looks like no one even bothers against dredge anymore. You see those sideboards, people don't even run 1 graveyard hate.

[Ramanas]

He really doesn't wanna give hollywood credit.

From the manaless thread.


Sorry hollywood. During the deck tech it completely slipped my mind to give u credit where its due and as soon it was over i remebered i wanted to do it and beat myself up over it. I do appreciate the pm and advice. Don't ever stop improving the deck.

As far as the tournament goes i did get a little unlucky in a matchup vs jund with him topdecking a case bolt to kill me the turn before he dies as well as having to play against 2 other combo decks. Ended up 3-4 drop but i would definatly play the deck again as its great for the current metagame.

It's not that he didn't want to give him credit. He simply forgot. Can we stop jumping down his throat for it?


Looks like no one even bothers against dredge anymore. You see those sideboards, people don't even run 1 graveyard hate.

I completely agree. The amount of GY hate in SBs from what I've seen has been on the decline for a while now. I don't know if it will get low enough for dredge to steal a tourny win, but we might be getting close.

[Godmode]

The picture is not the same as that list. I'm unsure if that is intentional or not. I see Paradise in the picture, but that's not anywhere in the 75. Maybe those Crypts were a typo, and are supposed to be lands?

Thanks for pointing that. I didn't even notice it. I picked up the picture from the GP coverage, maybe it's not his list. This list (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9908&iddeck=72243) shows the 2 Tormod's aswell, so the picture might be not his deck

[Godmode]

Btw, can anyone get Tim to post some sort of look back/mini report of the event here?

[GerryT]

The Crypts are Tarnished Citadels.

[Vandalize]

Why is this Thread so quiet? Everybody has been having trouble with Deathrites and stuff?

Ok, a little report from my locals might help, Went 3-1 with the following:

4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
1 Griselbrand
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 Tarnished Citadel
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Woodfall Primus
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge

1) Jund (2-0)
G1: I win the die roll, and keep a powerful seven: Gemstone Mine, Cephalid Coliseum, Breakthrough, Lion's Eye Diamond, Faithless Looting, Bridge from Below, Griselbrand. It does lack a Dredger, but my turn 1 Looting finds a Stinkweed Imp, which I promptly dump with Bridge, cast LED and flashback Therapy, dredging 1 Narcomoeba and another Bridge, pass. He starts with Thoughtseize, taking away my Breakthrough. I untap for turn 2, dredge a little further, and cast Breakthrough into Griselbrand to seal the deal.

Sideboarding: nothing, I wasn't expecting Leyline of the Void.

G2: He starts with Deathrite Shaman, off a fetchland. That would be pretty scary if I hadn't drawn the following: City of Brass, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Faithless Looting, Golgari Grave-Troll, Golgari Thug, Ichorid. I procede to cast Faithless Looting, flashback it, and cast another one that is dredged up, and build 16 Zombies on first turn. He concedes.

2) Esperblade (2-1)
G1: I keep a good seven on the draw, that has only Faithless Looting as business. He starts with Inquisition of Kozilek, immediately taking my Faithless Looting. I draw Lion's Eye Diamond for the turn and smile, casting it. It resolves. I dredge 11 cards deep, dumping some Ichorids and food in my graveyard. He plays Stoneforge Mystic into Batterskull, which is kinda silly, as I have a Therapy in my graveyard as well. I recur two Ichorids, dredge with GGT (hitting 1 bridge), I sacrifice my Ichorid to Cabal Therapy taking Batterskull, and attack with the other one. He decides not to block it and takes 3. Next turn, he cast a Brainstorm, fetches up, and pass. I retreive only one Ichorid this time, lacking food, and Dredge into another bridge. I attack with Ichorid + 2 tokens, and he blocks the token, and puts Jitte into play before combat phase, and I pass. He brainstorm again, and is unable to find Lingering Souls, so he ships back the turn. I retreive Ichorid once again, and now I dredge into Griselbrand. I Therapy for Swords to Plowshares and he shows me some Jace and discard, path is clear. I Return Griselbrand, dredge almost my whole deck, and make a 14/14 Golgari Grave-Troll. He draws for the turn, and concedes.

Sideboarding: -4 Lion's Eye Diamond, +3 Tarnished Citadel, +1 Cabal Therapy

G2: I mulligan into a weak six, and keep it. He starts with Thoughtseize, taking my Grave-Troll, and targets Surgical Extraction on it. I draw for the turn, play a Faithless Looting with can't find another dredger. He plays Stoneforge Mystic into Batterskull. I try to Therapy it, but he Forces it. Batterskull ends the game in 5 turns, as I draw blanks.

Sideboarding: -2 Dread Return, -1 Griselbrand, -1 Tarnished Citadel +4 Lion's Eye Diamond

G3: I keep a fast seven: City of Brass, Cephalid Coliseum, Stinkweed Imp, Golgari Grave-Troll, Careful Study, Careful Study, Narcomoeba. He mulligans to 5, and I can combo off turn 2 unmolested. He only plays a fetchland, Brainstorms into blanks and die to 8 Zombie tokens + Ichorids.

3) T.E.S (0-2)
G1: I start with Careful Study, preparing my turn 2 Coliseum. He starts with double Dark Ritual, double Lion's Eye Diamond, Infernal Tutor, break LEDs, Ad Nauseam, and Tendrils for 24. Sigh.

Sideboarding: -1 Griselbrand, -1 Ichorid +1 Cabal Therapy +1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

G2: I start with a blind Therapy on Lion's Eye Diamond, and I miss. He plays Ponder and pass. I play Faithless Looting, setting a Breakthrough next turn. He plays Brainstorm, finds what he needed, and procede to combo me out via Burning Wish to Diminishing Returns, and kills me with Tendrils for exact storm.

4) Team America BUG (2-0)
G1: He won the roll, and starts with Deathrite Shaman from an Underground Sea. I play Careful Study and drop two dredgers, setting up a Breakthrough. He Ponders and can't find a fetch or a green source and shuffle. He plays another Underground Sea, and Hymn to Tourach. Hymn takes two irrelevant cards from my hand. I cast Breakthrough dredge half my deck, and return Griselbrand to dredge the other half. He manages to blow my Zombies with Pernicious Deed, but Griselbrand is too much for him.

Sideboarding: nothing

G2: He starts with Ponder, shuffle and pass. I start with Putrid Imp. I have GGT and Coliseum in my hand, so I feel rather confident. He plays a land, and cast Delver of Secrets, and keeps a fetch untapped. I discard GGT in my upkeep, dredge 6, discard it again and blow up the Coliseum. He sighs and shows me double Spell Pierce plus Daze in his hand. I dredge into a lot of zombies, and try to Therapy him twice. He pierces the first, Dazes the second. He draws for the turn, and complains that Daze is an awful card, replay the land, cast Tarmogoyf and pass. I retreive Ichorids and beat him to 5 life (blocks with Tarmogoyf and Delver). He finally manages to Deed away my Tokens, but I have enough Ichorids to keep hitting, and two turns after, he's dead.




It was a side event for a Standard tournament that was happening in my local store, so we didn't get any prizes. Just playing for fun. I've really enjoyed the maindeck, and my deck didn't shit on me. Putrid Imp was almost never drawn, and Griselbrand is REALLY good as a Dread Return target. I might try some Bloodghast stuff in my next event, just for the lulz.

[ween]

I've always liked combo, but was feeling like playing more interactive lately so put together UR Delver, BUG and a Stax deck. However more recently Dredge has been calling to me and I put together a nonLED version to mess around with. Looks very fun, waiting on the cards. Thanks for all the many many pages I've trawled the last few days and keep it up!

[Juicy Karaage]

Played in my LGS and went 4-0

4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Nature's Claim
4 Ingot Chewer
3 Firestorm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ashen Ghoul

Round 1: Jund 2-1

I was on the play and kept a seemingly good hand with 2 Draw spells, dredgers and a rainbow land. Faithless Looting, discard dredgers, go. He plays Thoughtsieze and takes away my Careful Study. Dredged into junk while he plays Death Rite Shaman. The game went uphill after that while i dredged into nothing useful.

+3 Firestorm +2 Pithing Needle -4 Breakthrough -1 LED

I started with a Cabal Therapy naming DRS, he revealed a hand with DRS and Nihil Spellbomb. He plays the spellbomb and passes. Played the Needle naming Nihil Spellbomb then proceeded to go off. Well, not much. 2 Zombies, Stinkweed Imp and a Narcomoeba later, he blows the needle with an Abrupt Decay and removes my Graveyard then played a Goyf and Grim Lavamancer with his life at 5. I swung for 4, killing him with a Firestorm for 1. Game 3 starts off with 4 Bridges 2 Ichorid being dredged out in T2, 8 Zombies and an Ichorid was too much for a lone DRS to handle.

Round 2: U/W/r Stoneblade 2-1
I lost a race against 2 flipped Delvers and Lightning Bolt.

+4 Ingot Chewer -4 Breakthrough

Chewer on Batterskull, created zombies, dredged out Golgari Thug, play thug, Therapy sac'd Thug naming STP, returned Chewer on the top of the deck, rinse and repeat. Game 3 pretty much played like Game 2. Gotta love his reaction when he realized that he's facing an infinite number of Chewers.

Round 3: U/W Stoneblade 2-1
He FoW'd my Faithless Looting, leaving me with a hand with 4 Lands, a Troll and a LED. Play land go, play land and LED which he Spell Pierced, forcing me to ping myself to pay for the 2 mana. Play land go. The game went on like that until he finally played SFM fetching Jitte. Cracked the LED in my upkeep to discard the Troll then dredged. Nothing notable came out, i then cracked all 3 Cephalid Coliseum. 4 Bridges 4 Narcomoebas 4 Cabal Therapy into 16 Zombies. He scoops

+4 Ingot Chewer +4 Nature's Claim -4 LED -4 Breakthrough

2 Surgical Extractions coupled with 2 Wastelands slowed me enough for Batterskull to kill me. Game 3 he kept an 1 land hand with 3 removals which all 3 Narcomoeba ate. Hard casted Thug and Ichorid did some beats until a Bridged finally came out then i Therapy'd his hand away

Round 4: BUG 2-0
He muligans to 5 with no land, FoW'd my Opening Looting, then FoW'd my Top Deck'd Putrid Imp. Played a Careful Study, LED, LED, Breakthrough

+3 Firestorm +2 Pithing Needle

Typical Dredge hand, he has no answers. He nuked my Graveyard with a Tormod's Crypt though but it was too late with 4 Zombies and an Ichorid



Yes, i'm playing with a SB of excessive hate :laugh:

[ween]

As someone who just picked this up, perhaps you can explain something to me.

Why do you take out the Breakthrough in almost (not sure what you took out in the fourth) every match you described?

[joemauer]

As someone who just picked this up, perhaps you can explain something to me.

Why do you take out the Breakthrough in almost (not sure what you took out in the fourth) every match you described?

Games 2/3 are much more grindy than game 1. Breakthrough is too much of an all in card for grindy games.

Also, breakthrough is bad against decks that play discard on turn one since it is generally a card played on turn two.

[sherko7]

With the current metagame (DRS everywhere), I'm starting to think Firestorm main would be the way to go. I'll play Manaless but mulling to Contagion (or simply mulling for that matter) just isn't right for that deck.

Probably a standard quad laser list -1 Breakthrough, -1 Careful Study, -1 Golgari Thug, -1 Putrid Imp, for +3 Firestorm, +1 Darkblast?

[Que]

With the current metagame (DRS everywhere), I'm starting to think Firestorm main would be the way to go. I'll play Manaless but mulling to Contagion (or simply mulling for that matter) just isn't right for that deck.

Probably a standard quad laser list -1 Breakthrough, -1 Careful Study, -1 Golgari Thug, -1 Putrid Imp, for +3 Firestorm, +1 Darkblast?

As far as troublesome creatures what are we talking here? DRS is too slow for LED Dredge it can't keep up and theyr'e forced to leave mana up; DRS is usually in decks that are already running greedy manabeses and it strains them further when they need to keep the green up for DRS. Its also not too bad when they can't pull enchantments from the yard.

tbh the only creature I care about (other than Scavenging Ooze) would be Dark Confidant as it finds them additional hate, but if you're planning on running DB I guess that takes care of him.

Also I wouldn't cut Careful Study..

[SquirtMcGirt]

Hey Guys! New to the forums here but Ive been a lurker for a while. This is my dredge list but I am having a little trouble with a side board. I know they are meta dependant, but if I wanted to run a sort of catch all (or at least catch most lol) sb What would you suggest i run? Here is my md
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of brass
4 Cephillid Coliseum

4 L E D
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Careful study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from below
3 Dread Return

4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomeaba
3 Ichorid
1 Flayer of the hatebound
1 Griselbrand
3 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave troll

I am just not sure what would be good as I dont really have a legacy meta in my area to prepare for so I was just wondering what your opinions were for a good Catch all sideboard.

[ween]

Hi and welcome.

I think msot people would advocate for dropping to 2 Dread Return and maxing out on the full 4 Careful Study. Possibly cutting a Breakthrough to achieve this?

As far as sideboard goes, the popular option seems to be something like this:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Nature's Claim
3 Undiscovered paradise or Tarnished Citadel
3 Ashen Ghoul
1 Ancient Grudge or Ray of Revelation

That should cover you from other peoples graveyard strategies (Leyline), targetted removal (Ghouls) or Artifact\Enchantment hate (claims\grudges\rays)

The additional land come in to support the repeated bringing back of Ghouls and casting Nature's claims

The other option since you're playing DR, is to go for one of creatures like Iona, Shield of Emeria, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite and Angel of Despair.

I'm by no means an expert, but i hope any of this is helpful.

[SquirtMcGirt]

Hi and welcome.

I think msot people would advocate for dropping to 2 Dread Return and maxing out on the full 4 Careful Study. Possibly cutting a Breakthrough to achieve this?

As far as sideboard goes, the popular option seems to be something like this:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Nature's Claim
3 Undiscovered paradise or Tarnished Citadel
3 Ashen Ghoul
1 Ancient Grudge or Ray of Revelation

That should cover you from other peoples graveyard strategies (Leyline), targetted removal (Ghouls) or Artifact\Enchantment hate (claims\grudges\rays)

The additional land come in to support the repeated bringing back of Ghouls and casting Nature's claims

The other option since you're playing DR, is to go for one of creatures like Iona, Shield of Emeria, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite and Angel of Despair.

I'm by no means an expert, but i hope any of this is helpful.

Very helpful. I was running four studies and three breakthough, But I was kinda trying to go for balls out combo with the deck. The extra studies do add alot of consistency, but I like having the extra ichorid to ensure i can cast dread return and the 3 dr are there to make sure i get to cast it twice (to win with flayer) But thank you for the sb buddy I appriciate it very much. I was thinking about ghouls so I could side out the combo and go for a grindy kinda match so thats def worth consideration. Is ley line the best call there? The claims I get and that cards good, but the leylines would mainly be for the mirror? or decks that run tarmgoyf? or just try to recur anything? What are dredges worst match ups in your opinion? Cause thats what I want to worry about.


Edit: ANother concern of mine with leyline is that the deck already has to mulligan alot, is it worth the extra mulls to run it?

[ween]

Is ley line the best call there? The claims I get and that cards good, but the leylines would mainly be for the mirror? or decks that run tarmgoyf? or just try to recur anything? What are dredges worst match ups in your opinion? Cause thats what I want to worry about.
Edit: ANother concern of mine with leyline is that the deck already has to mulligan alot, is it worth the extra mulls to run it?

Leyline is for the mirror, and Reanimator.

Tarmogoyf isn't such a huge problem, you'll want to be winning before he's an issue. Especially with your Dread Return package.

I'm still pretty new to Dredge myself, but the bad matchups seem to be other fast combo decks, Show & Tell, UW with Rest in Peace main.

Maverick, BUG, etc that have Ooze and DRS maindeck aren't as big a problem unless you go all in on a single Dredger that gets removed.

As far as Leyline and mulligans, i can't speak to that sorry, hopefully someone else can.

[SquirtMcGirt]

Leyline is for the mirror, and Reanimator.

Tarmogoyf isn't such a huge problem, you'll want to be winning before he's an issue. Especially with your Dread Return package.

I'm still pretty new to Dredge myself, but the bad matchups seem to be other fast combo decks, Show & Tell, UW with Rest in Peace main.

Maverick, BUG, etc that have Ooze and DRS maindeck aren't as big a problem unless you go all in on a single Dredger that gets removed.

As far as Leyline and mulligans, i can't speak to that sorry, hopefully someone else can.
Thank you very much for the reply that makes things a bit more clear. I'll wait till somebody clears up the ley line deal, but but I was thinking maybe coffin purge, scene it really wouldn't interfere with "the plan" and I would be siding in lands anyway. But if that's not enough, what about farie macabre or whatever. It certainly seems like she ain't no hoe and Ichoroid can eat her. I don't know I guess that's why I'm Askin lol.

[Vandalize]

Leyline is for the mirror, and Reanimator.

Tarmogoyf isn't such a huge problem, you'll want to be winning before he's an issue. Especially with your Dread Return package.

I'm still pretty new to Dredge myself, but the bad matchups seem to be other fast combo decks, Show & Tell, UW with Rest in Peace main.

Maverick, BUG, etc that have Ooze and DRS maindeck aren't as big a problem unless you go all in on a single Dredger that gets removed.

As far as Leyline and mulligans, i can't speak to that sorry, hopefully someone else can.

Actually, Show & Tell is a really good matchup. They offer no disruption other than permission (which this deck really ignores), and they pretty much die to Cabal Therapy.

Another point: People are really not playing that much Graveyard Hate in their sideboard, due to Deathrite Shaman dominance. I think Dredge can be well positioned in the current meta, if one knows how to pilot it.

@SquirtMcGirt

My list:
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Dread Return
1 Griselbrand
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 4 Firestorm
SB: 2 Tarnished Citadel
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

I can't play Dredge without 4 Cabal Therapies main. This card is what makes the deck win, actually.

[SquirtMcGirt]

Actually, Show & Tell is a really good matchup. They offer no disruption other than permission (which this deck really ignores), and they pretty much die to Cabal Therapy.

Another point: People are really not playing that much Graveyard Hate in their sideboard, due to Deathrite Shaman dominance. I think Dredge can be well positioned in the current meta, if one knows how to pilot it.

@SquirtMcGirt

My list:
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Dread Return
1 Griselbrand
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 4 Firestorm
SB: 2 Tarnished Citadel
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

I can't play Dredge without 4 Cabal Therapies main. This card is what makes the deck win, actually.

You know, I was playing with just 1 Dr main and no target other than troll. I didn't have a win now card, but it really felt like it didn't need it. I just had a buddy who nabbed me a flayer and a gristle brand and was like sweet. It is nice winning the turn you go nuts. Maybe sideboard insta kill? For matches where winning now matters? Like combo and such. Firestorm looks sexy though.

[Mindlash]

ANother concern of mine with leyline is that the deck already has to mulligan alot, is it worth the extra mulls to run it?

The problem with Dredge is that most cards behave to Dredge like Leylines. You need them in your starting seven because you will not "draw" cards normally in general.


Thank you very much for the reply that makes things a bit more clear. I'll wait till somebody clears up the ley line deal, but but I was thinking maybe coffin purge, scene it really wouldn't interfere with "the plan" and I would be siding in lands anyway. But if that's not enough, what about farie macabre or whatever. It certainly seems like she ain't no hoe and Ichoroid can eat her. I don't know I guess that's why I'm Askin lol.

Some people used Faerie Macabre. But you also need to mull for them like you mull for Leylines.
Coffin Purge may be cast from the graveyard, but is likely to get countered by Reanimator and unlikely to stop opposing Dredge decks, while Leyline must be answered by them.

In my meta however Dredge and Reanimator are on the decline. We have Jund, Junk, Stoneblade, BUG, Canadian and Storm here. So the Leyline slot would most likely go to Firestorm I think. The slot would be wasted by improving the Storm matchup I think.


I can't play Dredge without 4 Cabal Therapies main. This card is what makes the deck win, actually.

I have to agree here. Therapy is one of the single best cards in Dredge and I would never cut one of them. If you really need to go down to 3 in your MD you should consider 1 slot in your sideboard for the 4th Therapy...but then again I would board it in every matchup :-)


I think msot people would advocate for dropping to 2 Dread Return and maxing out on the full 4 Careful Study. Possibly cutting a Breakthrough to achieve this?

Study and Looting should be maxed out. They help you in games 2/3 to dig for antihate against cards like Cage oder Leyline. They also do something on their own, while Breakthrough needs a discard outlet to be really useful. Breakthrough also gets boardet out in grindgames, while Looting and Study stays if I remember my boarding plans correctly.

I am playing the Quadlazer Dredge from the OP for reference -1 Citadel +1 Paradise. I switched to Dread Return and Targets from time to time because I liked the comboish feeling. But I haven't done so for about a 3/4 year.

Another Dredge deck that top8'ed a bigger event here was this (if you don't want to give up DR entirely):


Deck: 5. Andreas Müller, LED-Dredge (http://deckstats.net/deck-1863973-c41f86403e38d45660e0c64da0e5e079-de.html) http://deckstats.net/mana/m/u.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/b.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/r.gif http://deckstats.net/mana/m/g.gif

//Artifacts
4 Lion's Eye Diamond (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Lion%27s+Eye+Diamond)

//Creatures
4 Golgari Grave-Troll (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Golgari+Grave-Troll)
4 Golgari Thug (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Golgari+Thug)
4 Ichorid (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Ichorid)
4 Narcomoeba (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Narcomoeba)
4 Putrid Imp (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Putrid+Imp)
4 Stinkweed Imp (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Stinkweed+Imp)

//Enchantments
4 Bridge from Below (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Bridge+from+Below)

//Sorceries
4 Cabal Therapy (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Cabal+Therapy)
4 Careful Study (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Careful+Study)
4 Faithless Looting (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Faithless+Looting)
3 Breakthrough (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Breakthrough)
1 Dread Return (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Dread+Return)

//Lands
4 Cephalid Coliseum (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Cephalid+Coliseum)
4 City of Brass (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=City+of+Brass)
4 Gemstone Mine (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Gemstone+Mine)

//Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Leyline+of+the+Void)
4 Nature's Claim (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Nature%27s+Claim)
2 Ashen Ghoul (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Ashen+Ghoul)
2 Undiscovered Paradise (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Undiscovered+Paradise)
1 Ancient Grudge (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Ancient+Grudge)
1 Tarnished Citadel (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Tarnished+Citadel)
1 Breakthrough (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Breakthrough)

http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Show Deckstats (http://deckstats.net/deck-1863973-c41f86403e38d45660e0c64da0e5e079.html)


Greetings Chris

[Ghiwo]

Hi everyone!
I'm preparing for a quite big tournament (60-70 people) with my favourite deck: dredge, of course!
Now I'm running a quadlazer list, but I would really like to win with a comboish version with Flayer + DR. The problem is that DRS is the card right now, and I really fear an activation in response to DR. And, main problem, I don't like at all mulliganing caused by lack of nuts in the opening seven. I don't want any DR o Flayer in my opening hand. So, that's why I'm still into the Quadlazer list, even if it can finish the match slower that DR-Flayer lists.
What I would like to ask you is only about sideboard composition and how to play some match-ups.

That's my sideboard:
4 firestorm
4 nature's claim
2 dread return
1 griselbrand
2 tarnished citadel
2 memory's journey

My meta is composed mainly by BUG, Esper/UWr Stoneblade, Miracles (rip-helm and classic), Maverick (classic and with black), Canadian and some Goblins.
By now I went better with DRs + Griselbrand than Ashen Ghoul, because, even if I can find them in my opening hand, the big Demon is way too better than Ghouls, he is big, gains life, lets me flip my deck and can do something in response to swords to plowshares. Also, Griselbrand can help me abuse Firestorm in some match-ups like Goblins or Elves. First question, do you think is [-2 DR -1 Grisel--> +2 ashen ghoul + 1 ray of revelation/a.grudge/ingot chewer] a better way? Do you think that with the presence of DRS having a target in grave could be a mistake? Let me know!

I think I don't need to explain Journey: it's simply too good vs Miracles to shuffle away Terminus and other stuff! It also can be useful in mirror, or against Surgical.
Then, I would like to ask you how to efficiently combat Rest in Peace. I tried exploding trying to strip their hand, but they still have brainstorms and sensei's top to find RIP. Anyway if I can make a solid board position I am quite safe of RIP too, but Terminus is still a card.. So I can board in Nature's Claim, and try to slow play until they show RIP, but their few counters are perfect to get rid of my Claims. Then I thought to Wispmare, but I think it could be effective only as a 3-of in the board, and I don't have that space. Let me know how do you beat Miracles, because I found it a very though MU.
That's all for now, thanks to everyone!

[joemauer]

In my meta however Dredge and Reanimator are on the decline. We have Jund, Junk, Stoneblade, BUG, Canadian and Storm here. So the Leyline slot would most likely go to Firestorm I think. The slot would be wasted by improving the Storm matchup I think.



Reanimator is pretty much non existent right now. So, Leylines are kind of a waste for only one matchup, the mirror.

I sort of hate Firestorm, but I can't really think of a better sideboard card either. Those last four slots could probably be anything at the moment. Maybe a couple Dread Returns and a couple targets to reanimate? I am not sure what those cards should be but Leylines do seem like a waste at the moment.

[Mindlash]

Reanimator is pretty much non existent right now. So, Leylines are kind of a waste for only one matchup, the mirror.

I sort of hate Firestorm, but I can't really think of a better sideboard card either. Those last four slots could probably be anything at the moment. Maybe a couple Dread Returns and a couple targets to reanimate? I am not sure what those cards should be but Leylines do seem like a waste at the moment.

Firestorm is not that bad. It reads "Wrath of God + you win the game" :-) But I do not think it is needed. It was nice against Merfolk and in times of Mental Misstep as uncouterable discard outlet...but thats it. I just can't imagine other cards for the Dredge sideboard that would be useful today.

I do not think targets would be useful with everyone playing Deathrite Shaman. You can easily remove the one and only target with DRS while removing one Ichorid does not hurt that much. Elesh Norn might be a wreckining ball to the top decks though ^^


Let me know how do you beat Miracles, because I found it a very though MU.

I didn't play Dredge on bigger tournaments for a while now...I think GP Gent was the last time. Back there most UW Miracle decks used Surgical Extraction if I remember correctly. I probably boardet something like this:

-4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
-1 Ichorid
-1 Breakthrough
+3 lands
+3 Ashen Ghoul

You could slowroll them pretty easy back then by holding back your threats. Good targets for Cabal Therapy were Brainstorm, Surgical Extraction and Swords to Plowshares or Top on the play turn 1, though this depends highly on boardstates etc...

I have no idea if they use RiP over Surgical Extraction now. If they do you might want boarding something like this:

-4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
-1 Ichorid
-1 Golgari Thug
-1 Breakthrough
+4 Nature’s Claim
+3 lands

This is the same way I would board against Helm Combo I think. Our Matchup versus Helm Combo might be much worse though.


First question, do you think is [-2 DR -1 Grisel--> +2 ashen ghoul + 1 ray of revelation/a.grudge/ingot chewer] a better way? Do you think that with the presence of DRS having a target in grave could be a mistake? Let me know!

As I stated above I would not use targets because DRS can remove them easily. One removed Griselbrand might be one removed Ichorid less...but I think Ghouls are just better to diversify your threats against Surgical Extractions. When using Ghouls I would run the third rainbowland. The additional mana is helpful in using your Claims too.


So, that's why I'm still into the Quadlazer list, even if it can finish the match slower that DR-Flayer lists.

It is not that much slower I think. I played with and without DR. To play DR + targets you need to cut really good cards which is wrong in my opinion. And for the speed advantage: To kill someone with Flayer you generally need to flip a good chunk of you deck. In this situation you can rip their most relevant cards of their hands while generating zombies in the process with Ichorid already lurking in the grave. In most cases it is not relevant if you pass the turn at this point or not, because you have virtually won.

I like Flayer for giving you reach against prison cards though. But in my opinion Quadlaser is just more consistant and has the better grinding game.

Greetings Chris

[SquirtMcGirt]

do I have too announce who I am targeting with cabal therapy as I cast it or as its resolving?

[Vandalize]

do I have too announce who I am targeting with cabal therapy as I cast it or as its resolving?

You choose which player is going to be targeted on casting, and you only name the card you want them to discard after it resolves.

[SquirtMcGirt]

You choose which player is going to be targeted on casting, and you only name the card you want them to discard after it resolves.

Thank you, Thank you very much.

[SquirtMcGirt]

Hey guys! After proxying up some decks with death rite shaman and some other decks and testing them with a friend, I've settled on this list.
4 coliseum
4 city
4 gemstone

4 led
4 therapy
4 careful study
4 faithless looting
3 breakthrough
1 dread return
4 bridge

4 putrid imp
4 narco
4 ichorid
1 gristlebrand/sun titan
3 thug
4 stinky
4 troll

But I'm having trouble deciding which dude to run. Titan or gristlebrand? The latter can be eaten by ichorid but the former is really good too. To me it seems gristlebrand can be a bit too much sometimes but the life link is nice. The titan brings back led or critters. What do you guys think?

Oh for my sb
4 leyline
4 claim
1 ancient grudge
1 dakmor salvage
1 sun titan/undiscovered paradise
1 elesh norn grand cenobite
1 dread return

If I run titan main I will run the extra land in the sb. Any thoughts? I got the main jist of my list from the posts above (I see now why therapy is so important) and I really like this "almost quad lazer" list (that's what I decided it's called lol) I didn't get a chance to test firestorm out but that could be good in a few match ups I think. I'll have to check it out.

[Vandalize]

Hey guys! After proxying up some decks with death rite shaman and some other decks and testing them with a friend, I've settled on this list.
4 coliseum
4 city
4 gemstone

4 led
4 therapy
4 careful study
4 faithless looting
3 breakthrough
1 dread return
4 bridge

4 putrid imp
4 narco
4 ichorid
1 gristlebrand/sun titan
3 thug
4 stinky
4 troll

But I'm having trouble deciding which dude to run. Titan or gristlebrand? The latter can be eaten by ichorid but the former is really good too. To me it seems gristlebrand can be a bit too much sometimes but the life link is nice. The titan brings back led or critters. What do you guys think?

Oh for my sb
4 leyline
4 claim
1 ancient grudge
1 dakmor salvage
1 sun titan/undiscovered paradise
1 elesh norn grand cenobite
1 dread return

If I run titan main I will run the extra land in the sb. Any thoughts? I got the main jist of my list from the posts above (I see now why therapy is so important) and I really like this "almost quad lazer" list (that's what I decided it's called lol) I didn't get a chance to test firestorm out but that could be good in a few match ups I think. I'll have to check it out.

Griselbrand is better than Sun Titan. The ability to flip your deck and win is awesome. But if you're running only 1 Dread Return, you shouldn't run a target. I think 2 is the mininum number for Dread Returns before adding targets for it.

@Thread

Since Reanimator and Lands.dec are struggling against Deathrite Shaman (more than we are), I think Sideboard Leylines are not necessary in today's meta. Firestorm is a nice replacement for it and it kills the god damned creature, and can ping in for damage. Iona is not at it's best, because every deck now has three colors. But she's still fine against combo (well, better than Hypnotist).

My list is the same as the one I posted before, with a little change:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Dread Return
1 Griselbrand
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
SB: 4 Firestorm
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Tarnished Citadel
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Woodfall Primus (flex-slot)

I took out Ray of Revelation because I just haven't cast it in years. Woodfall Primus reminds me of the good old LED Dredge times (without Faithless Looting), where he was my beloved target to screw Survival of the Fittest & Co.

Took out Undiscovered Paradise from maindeck because I've had enough awkward situations with Cephalid Coliseum. I knew that would happen eventually.

Deck has been running smoothly, you should give it a try.

[SquirtMcGirt]

Griselbrand is better than Sun Titan. The ability to flip your deck and win is awesome. But if you're running only 1 Dread Return, you shouldn't run a target. I think 2 is the mininum number for Dread Returns before adding targets for it.

@Thread

Since Reanimator and Lands.dec are struggling against Deathrite Shaman (more than we are), I think Sideboard Leylines are not necessary in today's meta. Firestorm is a nice replacement for it and it kills the god damned creature, and can ping in for damage. Iona is not at it's best, because every deck now has three colors. But she's still fine against combo (well, better than Hypnotist).

My list is the same as the one I posted before, with a little change:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Dread Return
1 Griselbrand
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
SB: 4 Firestorm
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Tarnished Citadel
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Woodfall Primus (flex-slot)

I took out Ray of Revelation because I just haven't cast it in years. Woodfall Primus reminds me of the good old LED Dredge times (without Faithless Looting), where he was my beloved target to screw Survival of the Fittest & Co.

Took out Undiscovered Paradise from maindeck because I've had enough awkward situations with Cephalid Coliseum. I knew that would happen eventually.

Deck has been running smoothly, you should give it a try.

Yeah I was thinking about another dr main but honestly I like 4 ichorid too much, 4 putrid imp is epic as well. ive tried running just 2 thug but it doesnt feel like enough. I like my misers dr package. If i get brand with out the dr, he feeds ichorid, If i get the dr without brand, I get troll, Ive even brought back an ichorid just to make more zombies as well. I have noticed an astonishing lack of graveyard hate in top eight decklists places so maybe losing the leylines is a good call. firestorms good for alot of reasons. I really havent had alot of trouble with land, so the extra 1s I have put in the sb for ensuring I can cast claim. What about memorys journey? That card seems really good. could save bridges and narcos or dredgers...

[Vandalize]

Yeah I was thinking about another dr main but honestly I like 4 ichorid too much, 4 putrid imp is epic as well. ive tried running just 2 thug but it doesnt feel like enough. I like my misers dr package. If i get brand with out the dr, he feeds ichorid, If i get the dr without brand, I get troll, Ive even brought back an ichorid just to make more zombies as well. I have noticed an astonishing lack of graveyard hate in top eight decklists places so maybe losing the leylines is a good call. firestorms good for alot of reasons. I really havent had alot of trouble with land, so the extra 1s I have put in the sb for ensuring I can cast claim. What about memorys journey? That card seems really good. could save bridges and narcos or dredgers...

I simply hate Memory's Journey and Coffin Purge. 95% of the time you combo out with draw spells you're tapped out. And people just won't wait a turn before using their Surgical Extraction, they'll just exile the hell out of your business and you won't be able to do anything. Dredge has a really tight mana, and can't afford to leave mana open to do those tricks.

Another utility for those cards is against Reanimator, but this deck is already pretty much dead on the field. It's really lackluster in the mirror, and has no other applications than "sometimes" saving you from Extraction.

If you want to play arround Surgical Extraction, play proactive with Nether Shadows or Ashen Ghouls, or even a broad Dread Return option.

[Beatusnox]

I simply hate Memory's Journey and Coffin Purge. 95% of the time you combo out with draw spells you're tapped out. And people just won't wait a turn before using their Surgical Extraction, they'll just exile the hell out of your business and you won't be able to do anything. Dredge has a really tight mana, and can't afford to leave mana open to do those tricks.

Another utility for those cards is against Reanimator, but this deck is already pretty much dead on the field. It's really lackluster in the mirror, and has no other applications than "sometimes" saving you from Extraction.

If you want to play arround Surgical Extraction, play proactive with Nether Shadows or Ashen Ghouls, or even a broad Dread Return option.


I disagree here, sometimes against some of the faster combo decks or even reanimator(which is more popular after tinfins did well), using purge can slow them down immensely and allow you to win on your own terms. I know myself when I started playing this deck I always wanted the Combo win, to pop out a bunch of tokens, and win with FKZ or Flayer. Through playing the deck more and more, I am realizing that(I know vets of the deck know this) grinding games works just as well. Using Therapies and Purges, while on a slow dredge plan can many times just grind out a game. I know a few weeks ago I played against MUD, and they dropped turn 1 Trinisphere, and we both durdled around, long story short, I ended up recurring Ichorids and pass turning with them to just generate a ridiculous amount of Tokens and out aggro them, winning through two active Wurmcoil Engine and them at 30 Life with several blockers up. While I understand the desire to go nuts and just tap out for everything sometimes that is not the right call to make.

[Vandalize]

I disagree here, sometimes against some of the faster combo decks or even reanimator(which is more popular after tinfins did well), using purge can slow them down immensely and allow you to win on your own terms. I know myself when I started playing this deck I always wanted the Combo win, to pop out a bunch of tokens, and win with FKZ or Flayer. Through playing the deck more and more, I am realizing that(I know vets of the deck know this) grinding games works just as well. Using Therapies and Purges, while on a slow dredge plan can many times just grind out a game. I know a few weeks ago I played against MUD, and they dropped turn 1 Trinisphere, and we both durdled around, long story short, I ended up recurring Ichorids and pass turning with them to just generate a ridiculous amount of Tokens and out aggro them, winning through two active Wurmcoil Engine and them at 30 Life with several blockers up. While I understand the desire to go nuts and just tap out for everything sometimes that is not the right call to make.

By comboing out I don't mean Dread Return into some finisher. Combo out means playing a Draw spell after dumping a dredger in the yard. This usually happens turns 1 and 2, and is mostly when we tap out. Your best bet against reanimator is trying to get as many cards in the graveyard before their turn 2 (critical turn) and overwhelm them with Therapies. If you don't develop in the early game against such a fast deck, he'll just go for Exhume or counter your Coffin Purge/Journey.

Slow dredging and tight playing is another story. Against MUD and Control decks in general, we do have time to setup, DDD, and things like that. But these are not matchups where Coffin Purge/Journey is relevant, anyways. You can usually grind out Surgical Extraction if you lead them to misfire it. Or even add more threats (Ashen Ghoul), which get the job done.

Dredge's sideboard is just reacting against something that is really dangerous (e.g Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void). Against other decks, we don't need much hate because we're usually the beatdown deck (except Reanimator and T.E.S.). There are several matchups where I just don't board game 2, just to keep my deck as consistent as it can be, and sideboard correctly in game 3 against the given hate.

[Ghiwo]

My list:
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Dread Return
1 Griselbrand
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 4 Firestorm
SB: 2 Tarnished Citadel
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

I can't play Dredge without 4 Cabal Therapies main. This card is what makes the deck win, actually.

Hi Vandalize!
I like your list very much, but I would like to ask you something about it.
How do you feel with DRs + targets in a field of deathrite shamans? How often do you get your target removed by shaman? Anyway we can just use DR as a sac outlet and to reanimate a fatty troll.

How do you feel with "only" 3 breakthroughs and 3 Pimps? Do you miss the fullset? Is 3 and 3 a sufficient number for them?

Is the 13th land really required?

When do you board in the single ray of revelation? Vs rest in peace?

Thanks a lot!

[Vandalize]

Hi Vandalize!
I like your list very much, but I would like to ask you something about it.
How do you feel with DRs + targets in a field of deathrite shamans? How often do you get your target removed by shaman? Anyway we can just use DR as a sac outlet and to reanimate a fatty troll.

How do you feel with "only" 3 breakthroughs and 3 Pimps? Do you miss the fullset? Is 3 and 3 a sufficient number for them?

Is the 13th land really required?

When do you board in the single ray of revelation? Vs rest in peace?

Thanks a lot!


This is not my latest list, my sideboard has changed a bit. I'll post it here.

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tarnished Citadel

1 Griselbrand
3 Ichorid
3 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Dread Return

4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough

SB: 4 Firestorm
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Tarnished Citadel
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Woodfall Primus

I don't really miss my 4th Breakthrough. It enables a lot of explosive options, but it's usually the first card to be sideboarded out in a lot of matchups. 3 Putrid Imp is fine, as well, as we have a lot of discard enables maindeck. Griselbrand is the best target avaliable for Dread Return, and I win 95% of times I could return him.

As for Deathrite Shaman, they will usually have a hard time deciding what to take. If they can't stop you from chaindredging with a Draw spell, they'll have 1 possible activation, that won't really harm us. If they take Griselbrand, we still have a lot of zombies for them to deal with. If this match goes to the late game, you'll lose, of course. But here I'm talking about turn 2 or 3.

If they have Deathrite Shaman plus another kind of hate, things start to get difficult. But that should be post-board, when you bring your Firestorms. And makes things a little easier.

I usually board nothing against Jund in game 2, and if they bring Leylines or Tormod's Crypt, I usually do it like this: -3 Breakthrough, -1 Griselbrand +4 Firestorm. Jund usually have a hard time against us, because their Discard is really ineffective (unless it's a turn 1 Thoughtseize), and they don't have Swords to Plowshares, to exile our stuff.

As for other Deathrite Shaman decks (like BUG), I usually board the firestorms in game 2: -3 Breakthrough, -1 Griselbrand, +4 Firestorm. They can counter Breakthrough easily, and LED usually plays arround Daze. If you expect a lot of hate, you can go -4 Lion's Eye Diamond +4 Firestorm, or -4 Lion's Eye Diamond +2 Tarnished Citadel +1 Elesh Norn +1 Iona.

[Beatusnox]

So I made the mistake of watching Dredge videos on youtube. Some of the players of this deck are so bad it makes me want to tear my hair out... People who don't maintain GY order, or sacrifice Ichorid to Cabal Therapy when they have Narcomoeba they can sacrifice, and those are some of the more simple stupidities I have seen.

[igri_is_a_bk]

So I made the mistake of watching Dredge videos on youtube. Some of the players of this deck are so bad it makes me want to tear my hair out... People who don't maintain GY order, or sacrifice Ichorid to Cabal Therapy when they have Narcomoeba they can sacrifice, and those are some of the more simple stupidities I have seen.

It's not always wrong to sac Ichorid for Therapy. Haven't you ever had to block flyers?

I went 5-0 today on my way to 1st playing quadlazer (-1 Thug, +1 Darkblast) with this sideboard:

4 Nature's Claim
2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Dread Return
1 Iona
1 Elesh Norn
3 Ashen Ghoul

My rounds were UW Miracles, Burn, Deathrite Ale, Affinity, and Elves. I'm doing this from memory, but I'll try to highlight anything important. There were 17 people that showed up for this tournament.

Rd 1 - UW Miracles
I get paired against one of my friends round one and we know what each other play. I also know his hate is RiP, so I could board with 100% confidence. Game one, I keep a hand with all land and dredgers, but I have the luxury of knowing that I have all the time in the world. I just DDD until I overwhelm him. He goes for Enreat to stem the bleeding, but can only make two Angels. I accumulate zombies while smashing into his angels for a turn, then win on the following one.

SB: +4 Nature's Claim, -1 Darkblast, -1 PImp, -1 Breakthrough, -1 LED

Game two, he's on the play and drops a SDT. I start with Mine and PImp. Then he drops the RiP, but I have Claim in hand. I blow it up on my main phase, discard to my Pimp and cast Looting. I slow dredge for a couple turns and chip away at his life. He drops a Snapcaster for an ambush block hitting my Bridges, but I've made too many zombies at that point. I take it down a couple turns later with Ichorid.

Rd 2 - Burn
Before game one, I see he's playing sleeves with a giant red mana symbol on them. I put him on Goblins or Burn immediately. My suspicions are validated when he goes first turn "Chain Lightning you". Unfortunately for him, I draw the nuts. First turn LED, Breakthrough, and GGT with a land. I flashback my first Therapy on Lightning Bolt and hit three copies. It was pretty brutal.

SB: +2 Dread Return, +1 Iona, -1 Ichorid, -1 Darkblast, -1 PImp

Game two, he goes first turn Tormod's Crypt and Lava Spike. I still haven't seen any creatures from his deck, which is why I boarded out the Darkblast. I cast Study and dump an Ichorid and dredger in the yard. I find out next turn that he is playing an unconventional burn with Keldon Marauders among other interesting choices. He starts to apply pressure while I slow dredge, attempting to force him into using the Crypt. That eventually happens with an Ichorid trigger on the stack, and I have another Study in my hand that I've been saving all game. Unfortunately, I don't hit any Therapies and I die to Spark Elemental + Reckless Abandon. That's quite a bit of damage I didn't see coming.

SB: +1 Grudge, -1 Study

Game three, we both keep our seven and I play Study first turn, dumping two dredgers. He plays Crypt again and a burn spell. I have Breakthrough to explode on turn two, but I can't go for it yet. I slow dredge and take a lot of damage in the process. He uses the Crypt once I flip the Grudge. He also removed one of my Dread Returns incidentally. I fall down to three life and finally can use my Breakthrough, which I do. I flip over the Iona, but the last Dread Return is in my final 10 or less cards. I have to cross my fingers, pass the turn, and hope he doesn't topdeck a burn spell. He draws.... land. I Dredge 6, find the DR, and turn his deck completely off. Phew.

Rd 3 - Deathrite Ale
I saw this guy playing before the tournament started and I knew he had Deathrite Shaman. What he didn't realize is that DRS is terrible against any quick start from me. Game one, we both keep our seven and he goes first. His first turn is land, go. I'm thinking "hmmm, you have at least six discard and four DRS, but no first turn play? Why did you keep? You know I'm on Dredge." I play solitaire for the first game. First turn, I cast Looting. He plays Bitterblossom. Second turn, I activate Coliseum and leave him with two Bob and a Liliana. I only hit one Therapy, which took out StP blind while he was tapped out. His really powerful cards in hand are completely irrelevant to the matchup and I win with zombie and Ichorid beats.

SB: Nothing

Game two, I keep the nuts. I can remember this hand exactly: City, City, LED, PImp, PImp, Breakthrough, GGT. He casts Inquisition first turn and takes the Breakthrough. That's when I decide to prove to him I'm really good at Magic and top deck the second Breakthrough. It happens. I chain dredge four times, flashback a Looting, dredge a couple more times, strip his hand, and he scoops. Sorry bro. You're a nice guy though.

Rd 4 - Affinity
At this point, there are three of us with 3-0 records. One of them had a bye, so I get a little frustrated when I'm the one who gets paired down because I heard some guys saying this was the last round. Oh well, I can't change it. Game one, the only important thing that happens is I find out he's playing affinity. He tries to be hyper aggressive, as Affinity has to, but I flip some Narcos to block his Ornithopter wielding a Plating each turn, netting zombies in the process. I bring back Ichorids only to let them die for more tokens until I can build a lethal alpha strike. I swing for 28 damage once it happens.

SB: +1 Grudge, -1 Breakthrough

Game two, he opens with land, Relic, Ornithopter, and Memnite. I cast PImp and pass back. He drops a Plating, Mox Opal, equips and swings for a lot. This was a pretty good draw from him. Seeing I'm under duress, I decide I have to cast some draw spells to force that Relic and hope for some amazing dredges afterwards. I use my Looting to get some Ichorids and Bridges in the yard, but no Narco to block. I fall under five life and he still hasn't activated the Relic. I can't win so I pack it up before he sees the Grudge.

SB: Nothing

Game three, I start with a good hand: Breakthough, Looting, Stinkweed, GGT, Therapy and two lands. He keeps his seven. I start with Therapy naming Relic. It hits two copies, and I take a sigh of relief. He takes his turn and draws a Crypt. Not the end of the world, but not what I wanted to see. At that point, he admits that he brought in three hate cards and saw them all. He also plays an Ornithopter and Signal Pest before passing back. I draw a Study and cast the Looting in my hand, finding another dredger and LED. I discard a couple dredgers and pass back. On his turn, he casts Ethersworn Canonist so I can't Therapy his hand apart once I deal with the Crypt. I dredge and cast the Study I drew last turn. It finds normal graveyard goodies, but not any Narcomoebas, which I'm actually happy about since he has a Crypt. He plays a Plating on his turn and swings in for seven. On my turn, I bring back an Ichorid, flip over the Grudge, and swing in for three. I tank for a minute and decide to use my Grudge now since Ichorid is in play, rather than the gy. In response, he activates the Crypt and I'm ready for my next turn to save me. I'm still holding the Breakthrough from the beginning of the game, as well as an LED and several dredgers. He plays another creature and attacks me really low. I think I'm at four life now, if my memory is correct. I go for LED (thankfully that's an artifact or Canonist would've won him the game) and cast Breakthrough, cracking the LED in response. I dredge 23 cards deep and hit all four Narcos and two more Ichorids. I can't flashback Looting though, but that's okay. It would have only been icing on the cake. Now I can block his attacks and net four zombies each time, plus gain 12 on mine. I bring back the three Ichorids and let them die for zombies. If I attacked, he could block one, I'd lose my Bridges and I wouldn't have enough for a lethal alpha strike. My plan works and I win next turn when I attack for 30ish damage. Once again, phew.

There are two of us with 4-0 records now and I'm elated when I hear there's another round, because the other deck is Elves. Zombies eat elves for breakfast and don't ask to be excused from the table.

Rd 5 - Elves
Game one, I draw the nuts for the third time. LED + GGT + Breakthrough = GG before it started. I hit three Therapy and leave him with a Glimpse and lands but no creatures. He scoops on his third turn.

SB: +2 Dread Return, +1 Elesh Norn, -1 Ichorid, -1 PImp, -1 Study

Game two, he starts with a mana elf and passes. I have Breakthrough, Stinkweed, GGT Looting with one land and two blanks. I start with Looting drawing LED and blank. Play the LED and pass. He needs to combo this turn or I have a feeling I'm going to Therapy him out of the game. He plays a Priest and passes back. I dredge and cast Breakthrough, but he responds with Surgical on my Looting when he could have hit Therapy. Oops. Breakthrough resolves. I hit two Narco and two Bridges, plus the DR and Elesh Norn. I sac the first Narco to Therapy him naming Glimpse, then I bring Elesh Norn. That's GG.

I probably can't play Dredge next week as everyone will be ready, but it was a good day. I had some nail biters, but managed to get there.

[Beatusnox]

It's not always wrong to sac Ichorid for Therapy. Haven't you ever had to block flyers?


I should amend my post, they were playing against burn. Or another player who did the same thing against elves. Or the player who didn't cabal therapy the cranial plating out of the affinity players hand etc. I kind of wish I had either a camera that didn't suck or a good screen capture program. I am by no means an expert but god some people who 'play' this deck just have no idea... lol.

[tw0as]

Hi everyone! I want to share my take on Dredge. I'm kinda new in the forum, but not in the format but i think that constructed criticism is the best way to improve so here they are, my 75s:


4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tarnished Citadel

1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgrai Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp

3 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

SIDEBOARD
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Angel of Despair
3 Firestorm
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Memory's Journey
3 Nether Shadow
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Unmask




Some cards may seem awful in the sideboard, specifically Memory's Journey and Unmask. The first one is against Reanimator because i really dont know how to succesfully approach this matchup games 2 and 3. The other one is Unmask. I included it originally because i played Street Wraith over Careful Study because of the high DRS decks in my metagame, i ended up cutting the Wraiths, but Unmask keeps in. Why is that? Because i like to answer to threats before they hit the battlefield, i think that the better way to deal a Rest in Peace is throwing it to the graveyard; this forces me to mull agressively g2 and g3, but even mullin' to 5 to keep a hand with unmask i can pull wins far too easy without having to worry of the hate.

I expect your opinions, best regards, tw0as .

[Ghiwo]

Rd 1 - UW Miracles
I get paired against one of my friends round one and we know what each other play. I also know his hate is RiP, so I could board with 100% confidence. Game one, I keep a hand with all land and dredgers, but I have the luxury of knowing that I have all the time in the world. I just DDD until I overwhelm him. He goes for Enreat to stem the bleeding, but can only make two Angels. I accumulate zombies while smashing into his angels for a turn, then win on the following one.

SB: +4 Nature's Claim, -1 Darkblast, -1 PImp, -1 Breakthrough, -1 LED

Game two, he's on the play and drops a SDT. I start with Mine and PImp. Then he drops the RiP, but I have Claim in hand. I blow it up on my main phase, discard to my Pimp and cast Looting. I slow dredge for a couple turns and chip away at his life. He drops a Snapcaster for an ambush block hitting my Bridges, but I've made too many zombies at that point. I take it down a couple turns later with Ichorid.


Hi! I would like to ask you something about that game, because I think that Miracles is one of the thoughest match ups for me. How do you feel boarding 4 claims with only 8 lands that can cast them? I saw that you didn't board any land. Do you think that keeping in the LEDs and breakthroughs would help to have a better game due to a probably faster start?

@all: from my tests I found out that Dredge can be really well positioned in the meta as far as you can open fast hands. Now that the counters are heavily reduced there are a lot of times that you can start without any answer from the opponent. But if you don't open a fast hand, you'll lose pretty much always! Decks with DRShaman can grind you out very easily if you don't start as fast as you can, and also fast aggro decks can race you.. It seems incredible, but I lost a G1 vs Goblins because i had 2 LED in play, but I wasn't able to find looting to go for the all-in, I had 2 ichorids and 2 bridges.. I lost to a Sharpshooter killing my Narcomoebas and himself exiling my bridges, and some goblins put up some race, and that race was better than the one of my ichorids. I really hated this game, so my program now is to mulligan very very aggressive into faster hands, even at 5 or 4.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Hi! I would like to ask you something about that game, because I think that Miracles is one of the thoughest match ups for me. How do you feel boarding 4 claims with only 8 lands that can cast them? I saw that you didn't board any land. Do you think that keeping in the LEDs and breakthroughs would help to have a better game due to a probably faster start?

It's the same odds as you playing Looting or PImp in the first game. I only bring in the lands if I'm playing against Wasteland. Basically, I wanted one of two hands: a fast start with LED or a hand that can both dredge and cast Claim.