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Michael Keller
03-26-2012, 01:24 AM
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"Ichorid is as much a Combo deck as anything, so every single card choice should be scrutinized. Keep in mind that switching one card can mess up the entire workings of some versions."
- Parcher


Introduction to Dredge.

Magic is a complex game that is primarily focused on interacting with an opponent(s) and involves critical thinking and important decisions in order to establish an advantage in order to ultimately achieve victory. There are so many different types of decks - especially in Legacy - where the card pool is incredibly vast and so many different viable combinations of cards and colors exist. Magic also has numerous mechanics - abilities and terms indicated on specific cards (sometimes generalized within a block of sets) that usually encapsulate a theme of some sort.

One of the more notorious mechanics loved (and hated) by Magic players around the world is "Dredge," an ability attributed to the Golgari in the Ravnica block. In short, the Dredge mechanic is a Replacement Effect (a type of 'continuous' effect that watches for one event to happen and replaces it entirely with another event) that occurs when the owner of a card in a graveyard with Dredge opts to replace a single draw by putting a set number of cards - as indicated by the actual card with Dredge - from his or her library into their graveyard. This event occurs for every individual draw, and the card with said ability will then go directly into its owner's hand.

Here's a basic example of how it works:

Consider we have a Stinkweed Imp, a long-time Dredge staple. The Imp dredges for a set amount of five (5). What this means is assuming the Imp is in your graveyard, for every individual card you would draw you may replace one of those draws by placing the top five cards of your library into your graveyard - in any order you choose - and taking the Imp and returning it to your hand.

(Also understand that replacement effects offer no window for priority to be passed. According to the Comprehensive Rules 419.6e: Skipping an action, step, phase, or turn is a replacement effect. "Skip [something]" is the same as "Instead of doing [something], do nothing." You're simply replacing one action with another.)


Historical Influence of Dredge.

Historically speaking, the Dredge mechanic has provided an incredible amount of controversy to competitive players around the world because of how degenerate it can truly be. Dredge is a deck that bases its core strengths on having the advantage of not interacting with its opponents and overwhelming them with an incredibly large horde of the undead. The archetype deploys a variety of angles of attack and primarily uses its graveyard as a virtual "toolbox" - an incredibly potent strategy when you consider most cards that are being placed into your graveyard at an accelerated rate systematically provide you card advantage in so many different ways anyhow.

Dredge has certainly made its presence felt over the years since its debut in the Ravnica block years back in just about every competitive format - and has changed that much more. In Vintage, the archetype gains an incredible amount of degeneracy and consistency with the powerful Bazaar of Baghdad. In Legacy, however, there are other ways to make the deck degenerate with the current card pool using cards such as Lion's Eye Diamond and Breakthrough to dredge basically through a massive chunk of your deck.

For reference, here is a list of some Legacy Dredge articles detailing its intricacies and chronicling its evolution over the years (there are obviously varying types of Dredge lists; these articles are provided on the basis of understanding the archetype):

The Dark Art of Dredge Fu, by Richard Feldman (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21777_The_Dark_Art_Of_Dredge_Fu.html).
Recurring Nightmares: Dredge Returns (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/recurring-nightmares-dredge-returns/).
Idea's Unbound - Legacy Dredge by Max McCall (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/18948_Ideas_Unbound_Legacy_Dredge.html).
Not-Quite-Manaless Dredge With Nicholas Rausch (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/22324_Deck_Tech_NotQuiteManaless_Dredge_With_Nicholas_Rausch.html).
Legacy Dredge Deck Tech with Adam Prosak (http://www.gatheringmagic.com/richcastle-02242012-legacy-dredge-deck-tech/).
A New Take on Legacy Dredge by Andrew Weinberger (http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=918).
1st Place - SCG Open: Atlanta - Dredge by 4eak (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?22114-1st-Place-SCG-Open-Atlanta-Dredge).
Dawn of the Deaf: Grand Prix Indy Top Eight Report (http://www.gatheringmagic.com/andoferguson-031612-dawn-of-the-deaf-a-top-8-report/).
Dredging to Glory - 13th at SCG: Baltimore by Michael Keller (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23436-Report-Dredging-to-Glory-13th-Place-at-SCG-Baltimore.&p=628643#post628643).
Legacy's Best Combo Deck by Matt Elias (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/23945_Legacys_Best_Combo_Deck.html).
1st Place @ Curio Cavern: Legacy Altar of Alters Event by Michael Keller (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23655-Report-1st-Place-Curio-Cavern-Legacy-Altar-of-Alters-Event!&p=637507#post637507).
Dredge: SCG Columbus with Gerry Thompson (Premium) (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/24224_Demonstrating_My_Range.html).
It's a Dredgedy - The Legacy Takeover by Erik Hegemann (http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=2890).
Breaking it Down by Jason Abong (http://www.azmagicplayers.com/articles/breaking-it-down-legacy-october-14th-october-21st/).
The Cutting Room Floor: Manaless Dredge in Legacy (http://jupitergames.info/articles/2012/52180/the-cutting-room-floor-manaless-dredge-in-legacy).
The Cutting Room Floor: Group Therapy (http://jupitergames.info/articles/2012/52501/the-cutting-room-floor-group-therapy).

As time goes on, more and more links will be provided to include some really great writing on the archetype. If there is something you'd like to add, please let me know.


Video Library.

Nicholas Rausch (Manaless Dredge) vs. Caleb Durward (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hC07RjSSas).
Bryan Gottlieb (LED Dredge) vs. Adam Cai (http://blip.tv/scglive/scginvitational-legacy-open-rnd-9-adam-cai-vs-bryan-gottlieb-6058401).
Joseph Pinkley (LED Dredge) vs. Kurt Samson (http://blip.tv/scglive/scgaz-leg-top8-joseph-pinkley-vs-kurt-samson-6097097).
Damon Whitby (LED Dredge) vs. Sam Roukas (http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/21852161).
"Hollywood" Michael Keller (Manaless Dredge) vs. James Higginbottom (http://www.twitch.tv/jupitergames/b/331492879).
Erik Hegeman (Vintage Dredge) vs. Stéphane Roumanille (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95tmzW6cw4A).
Erik Hegeman (Vintage Dredge) vs. Daniel Majano (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHVjaZSB5ng).
SCG: Deck Tech - Legacy Dredge (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6-E976A470).
Playoteket @ Lund Sweden: LED Dredge vs. Bant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyT-5UXY7FM).
Deck Tech: Dredge (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRbrMvFIdGA).
Manaless in Action: MTG Deals (http://www.twitch.tv/mtgdeals/b/426829677).




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The Basic Core of Dredge.

For as long as Dredge has existed as an archetype, so too have a core set of staples that have made up the basic foundation for which the deck exists. While Dredge can be an incredibly subjective archetype, there are some inclusions that will always give it the fuel it needs to do what it does best.

Golgari Grave-Troll

Both iconic and powerful, the Grave-Troll is the flagship card for any competitive Dredge deck. It is currently the card which dredges for the most amount at a total of six (6) cards. Generally speaking, Golgari Grave-Troll optimizes most starts in that it allows you to dig farther into your library than any of its counterparts and additionally gives you the luxury of being able to accelerate your engine at a faster rate. Most, if not all Dredge variants max out at a full set of these - as it truly is the most optimal card that dredges in existence.

Additionally, GGT is a high-value target when considering running Dread Return, as it can be a massive creature when it enters the battlefield (counting itself), but more on that shortly.


Stinkweed Imp

The Imp as we've already seen maxes out at a Dredge count of five (5). It is currently the second largest dredger and is also optimal at maxing out with a full set of four. While not the most orthodox line of play, the Imp does fly, can be reasonably hard-cast, and has a built-in ability mirroring Deathtouch (a mechanic that according to rule 702.2c. indicates that a creature that's been dealt damage by a source with Deathtouch since the last time state-based actions were checked is immediately destroyed as a state-based action). While the Imp doesn't have exactly Deathtouch, its utility can certainly be of assistance in troublesome circumstances.


Golgari Thug

Golgari Thug is third on the list as arguably the most controversial dredger currently in existence, with a dredge count of four (4). One of the reasons the card remains controversial isn't necessarily because of its basic inclusion in Dredge, but rather due in large part to its ineffectiveness in being able to facilitate dredges at a max dredge of four. Most lists that run Golgari Thug parallel its count with Ichorid, another card that takes advantage of the Dredge mechanic and lack of interactivity.

The Thug's built-in triggered ability has some corner-case merit, but it's usually moot in most circumstances. However, it's a rather nifty ability to utilize in instances where returning Narcomoeba's or other anti-hate measures becomes the only line of play that can bail you out of troublesome circumstances. Remember, if the Thug is placed into the graveyard from the battlefield and is the only creature card in the graveyard when that happens, he will trigger targeting himself and will be placed on top of your library. Just something to consider in the event he is cast and subsequently killed.


Bridge from Below

Ever since its printing in Future Sight, Bridge from Below has become the very backbone of Dredge. Being as how Dredge uses its graveyard advantageously, the ability to create a massive horde of Zombie tokens in a hurry can be just overwhelming to an unprepared opponent. This is one of the more confusing cards in the deck to understand, so let's look at it like this.

Here's the Oracle wording:

Whenever a non-token creature is put into your graveyard from the battlefield, if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard, put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield.
When a creature is put into an opponent's graveyard from the battlefield, if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard, exile Bridge from Below.

So, we need to understand a few things here about the card, because as some of us have seen, it is a card that requires undivided attention to detail and the ability to use the triggers to your advantage.

Let me repeat that one more time, because it is imperative to remember: attention to detail...and use the triggers to your advantage. You must not forget that not only should you make tokens when your non-token creatures die, but also remember to strategically dump Bridges from your hand whenever possible - depending on the match-up.

The most important thing to consider when an opponent's creature dies simultaneously with your non-token creature(s) is to stack the triggers. Again: Whenever a non-token creature is put into your graveyard from the battlefield, if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard, put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield. When a creature is put into an opponent's graveyard from the battlefield, if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard, exile Bridge from Below.

This means understand that you may stack the triggers in your favor so you may get Zombie token(s) when the Bridge(s) trigger from the graveyard. It's happened before on the big stage and I still don't understand why people consider the deck easy to play. This is an intricate part of understanding the way the deck works, and this is the most important card to pay explicit attention to. Take a few minutes to read up on the Stack (http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Stack); don't be embarrassed - it's not only critical to make you a better player, but more importantly a better Dredge player!

This is an archetype that thrives on remembering triggers, so you have to know how and when to stack them appropriately and advantageously. Always run four - always.


Cabal Therapy

As previously mentioned, Dredge has the ability to overwhelm an opponent with a horde of Zombie tokens extremely fast. One of the primary ways the deck is able to achieve this is by being able to sacrifice its creatures to Cabal Therapy - an incredibly powerful discard spell that requires distinct skill and a solid working knowledge of the format to master.

Being able to discard cards from your own hand in order to get cards into your graveyard is fine, but the card's primary use should ultimately be to shred an opponent's hand and create Zombies in the process. This is a card that has been most efficient at running a full set of. Whether or not you opt to run three main or one in the sideboard is fine - at least IMO - but just understand like the opening quotation indicates that swapping out a single card for something that acts functionally different can change the entire course of game-play. This has never been more true than of a deck like Dredge where getting maximum value out of your graveyard means the difference between winning and losing games.


Narcomoeba

Because a very large percentage of your library is going to be finding its way into your graveyard, Dredge needs to continue finding avenues of being able to "cheat" creatures into play from the graveyard. Narcomoeba is a card that, while incredibly good when dredged off the top of your library, can be somewhat of a liability when opened in your starting hand. You never want to ideally hard-cast anything but draw spells or discard outlets, and if you find yourself in a position where you're hard-casting Narcomoeba, you're usually in trouble.

Being able to fuel Cabal Therapy and Bridge from Below is incredibly important in Dredge, arguably most important, so consider when choosing how many Narcomoeba's you want to run you take into consideration what you're doing. Narcomoeba is purely fuel and a semi-evasive attacker, really nothing more here. However, its utility is paramount and running anything less than four can in some instances be an incorrect number.


Ichorid

The single most powerful recurring threat in Dredge that refuses to die. Ichorid on its own is a relatively innocuous Black creature that really does nothing more than bait removal or suck up blockers, but when you truly look at why Ichorid is included in Dredge, you'll see why it's as powerful as it should be.

First off, Ichorid is an efficient, recurring beater that does not interact with your opponent as far as being a spell goes (assuming you don't hard-cast it, which would be relatively rare), so counter-magic is generally out the window. The card wreaks havoc on Control decks because of their inability to stop it from returning turn in and turn out, which makes it incredibly resilient and an intricate part of the deck's strategy of avoiding interactivity.

Additionally, in conjunction with Cabal Therapy & Bridge from Below, the card can be a menace. Sometimes it is not always correct to straight-up attack with Ichorid on the basis you do not want your Bridges exiled, so simply recurring one by exiling a Black creature and naturally letting it die at the end of your turn is ideal in amassing an army of tokens. Cabal Therapy optimizes this approach as you're able to make tokens and rip an opponent's hand apart in the process. The card speeds games up in a hurry when it has fuel, which is why sometimes only running two or three is the correct number.

These cards make up the core foundation of the Dredge archetype. There are other considerations when deciding what to run besides these staples, so let's take a look at their utility.


The Supporting Cast of Dredge.

Being as how there are a multitude of varying sub-archetypes of Dredge such as Manaless, Hybrid, Lion's Eye Diamond, etc., we can look at some of the cards that help facilitate the aforementioned archetypes and what makes them successful. We'll also look at some cons, as sometimes cards that are deemed "suboptimal" in one build could have tremendous value in another. Again, to reiterate: Dredge is an incredibly subjective archetype, so we need to keep an open mind as to what is deemed optimal to one player and suboptimal to others.

Putrid Imp

This is right at the top of the list due in large part that it is included in a vast majority of builds currently in existence. It is an intricate part in Dredge today because of the powerful amount of draw spells and the choice to eschew what is known as the "DDD" plan, or "Draw, Discard, Dredge" plan. Understand that not everyone feels as though Putrid Imp is optimal as far as giving your opponent an opportunity to interact with you goes. However, at one mana and being a Black creature it provides an incredible amount of resiliency in being able to repeatedly fuel your graveyard with the most effective dredger available, feeds to a hungry Ichorid, and gives you access to dredged Therapies in your graveyard.

For these reasons, Putrid Imp is all but considered a staple in Dredge these days, however it isn't necessary in all variants.


Dread Return

Dread Return is one of those cards that gives the deck a straight-up combo finish in being able to create a massive amount of Zombies and the ability to recur a creature that either facilitates an instant win, provides incredible defensive resistance, or is absolutely huge (or any combination of these). Some people have begun shifting Dread Return to the sideboard as it has become somewhat of a "win more" card that can be situational at times and unnecessary given that the deck already has an very solid game one win percentage among most of the format.

The sideboard where you would ideally place a specialty creature like Iona, Shield of Emeria, which can oftentimes shut an opponent off entirely. Iona is usually the most common sideboard choice for Dredge as a Dread Return target, but there are other popular choices as well.

Here are some other of the most popular Dread Return targets used either main-deck or sideboard over the years:

Flame-Kin Zealot
Griselbrand
Angel of Despair
Sun Titan
River Kelpie
Sphinx of Lost Truths
Flayer of the Hatebound
Eternal Witness
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Inkwell Leviathan
Woodfall Primus
Akroma, Angel of Wrath
Ancestor's Chosen
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Terastodon
Stalking Vengeance
Sadistic Hypnotist
Realm Razer

There have been other choices as far as targets go, and I'm sure I've missed some others as far as utility goes. These however have been the more popular options over the last several years, with Flayer currently the newest addition as a primary target in the build that most recently Top 8'ed Grand Prix: Indianapolis.

Some Dredge enthusiasts believe Dread Return to be the "weakest link" in the overall makeup of the archetype, however in a very specific configuration the card can be incredibly powerful, as in Manaless Dredge - a variation of the archetype comprised of a high threat-density and eschewing draw spells to go the DDD line of play.


Lion's Eye Diamond

While Lion's Eye Diamond requires very careful consideration when including it in your list, it also necessitates some thought as to what spells you'll opt to run with it. The Diamond is a card that is purely combo and enables some incredibly broken starts with just about any draw spell. However, the card can force you to go "all in" at times as you're discarding your entire hand in the hopes your draw spell resolves. Even if it doesn't, you still should have a dredger in your graveyard - but that doesn't mean that will be ultimately effective in how the game turns out should your draw spell be negated.

Lion's Eye Diamond is a card that, while not very price-friendly, can be essential depending on which variation of Dredge you're opting to run. Obviously a deck that incorporates LED to its overall strategy is going to want the best draw/discard spells the format has to offer in order to complete broken opening hands. Also keep in mind that when using Lion's Eye Diamond, you know when to maintain priority so you can fuel your graveyard before maxing out with a draw spell.

The Diamond is a card that also gets shifted sometimes to the sideboard, which can be a mistake against some match-ups. Keep in mind that LED is a very powerful spell that requires a proper setup and opening hand to go along with it. Being able to discard your hand at will is nice, but know that sometimes that is not always the best line of play - especially in a format filled with varying kinds of hate.


Breakthrough

If you're looking to run LED in your deck, look no further than Breakthrough - an incredibly potent accelerate that in conjunction with LED can blast through a massive portion of your deck in a hurry. However, it is not always necessary to run LED and Breakthrough together. You can always opt to eschew running LED in favor of more conventional discard outlets such as Putrid Imp and or Tireless Tribe (which has since fallen in favor of just Imp), and that can work still just as fine. Also take note that you can choose to keep a card or more in your hand depending on the amount of "X" you want to pay, although you really want the card to resolve and to dump as many cards into your graveyard as soon as possible (in most circumstances) so you don't want to open yourself to more conditional counter-magic or hold off until something like Gaddock Teeg hits the table - a very realistic possibility in Legacy today.

You don't necessarily have to run a full set of Breakthrough, as some winning lists (like that of recent Open Champion Adam Prosak) run only two or three main and keep a third or fourth in the board for Combo. This is, however, usually not the right line of play, as Breakthrough is just incredibly powerful when it resolves. However, let it be known though that LED does in fact produce mana when your hand is discarded, which is key when you want to run the next draw spell on the list...


Faithless Looting

The newest and brightest star in the Dredge galaxy. This card not only draws you and allows you to discard two cards, it lets you be able to do it...again! That's right, for 2R (wink wink, LED) you can flash this card back and repeat said process. That is incredibly powerful when you consider that for all intents and purposes your primary objective is to plow through your deck as fast as you can and turn your graveyard into a smorgasbord of answers and win-conditions. Looting gets the job done very well and is seeing a very high percentage of play in Dredge currently.

While not necessarily a staple, Looting does in fact cost a single Red mana to cast. While this might be moot to some players, it really isn't when you consider the way you set your land configuration up. A deck for instance with twelve (12) land - eight (8) Gold including four (4) Cephalid Coliseum - can have awkward starts with a Coliseum and Looting attached to it. Be aware that if you're going to run Looting, you need to be able to hard-cast it and not necessarily believe that it only works discarded and flash-backed with LED.


Careful Study

Careful Study might as well be a staple in Dredge at this point because of just how good it is and always has been. It costs one Blue mana, which is very good because of the aforementioned reasons in regards to Looting. It's important to consider that Study does what Looting does, except without the bonus of Flashback. Study is a very potent accelerate and hand-filterer that can help facilitate the dredging process in addition to being a mana-friendly spell.

Incredibly good for what it does, I wouldn't run anything less than four - which I already do.


Nether Shadow

Nether Shadow is by far one of my favorite cards to hit the Dredge scene in recent years. Understandably, it gets around counter-magic beautifully and fuels those big Dread Return turns (say that five times fast) so you can win the game on the spot. At first it seems relatively innocuous, but any unsuspecting opponent who underestimates Nether Shadow's primary utility will certainly fall if these go unanswered.

The Shadow's greatest strength is also its greatest weakness in that Dredge builds that want to run him generally require running Phantasmagorian. During the days of Mental Misstep, Phantasmagorian off the DDD was incredibly powerful, and still can be if played correctly today. However, Phantasmagorian-Dredge builds generally are a turn slower, and while that can be beneficial in dodging interaction with an opponent and guaranteeing a solid start, it also generally puts you a turn behind and at risk to other factors including discard and decks that are simply faster.


Cephalid Coliseum

Most people confuse Cephalid Coliseum as a land instead of a virtual draw spell, and while there have been many debates regarding this issue over time, I still feel as though the Coliseum is a draw spell first and a land second. You're never really going to be using it as a land more than twice in a game, and if you're playing a faster combo variation of Dredge using LED, you're probably going to be wanting to use it to draw as fast as possible, but also strategically. You don't necessarily want to just activate it if you're not ready to, although generally speaking if you have a dredger in your graveyard with Threshold (seven or more cards) then it's probably a good idea to activate it.

Coliseum is incredibly good, but keep in mind that you want enough land with it to activate it when you need to, meaning consider how many lands you want to run if you're running Coliseum - generally somewhere in the area of thirteen or fourteen mana sources. LED mana is generally used for Looting, but it can be used for Coliseum in the event you really feel as though it is optimal to "go off."


Ashen Ghoul

While certainly a long-forgotten force of early Dredge incarnations - especially that of Vintage "Friggorid" - the Ghoul was at one time a very serious threat within this archetype. It still sees occasional play in varying sideboards where diversification of threats is acceptable, as the card can basically mirror the strategy of recurring threats like Ichorid and Nether Shadow. It does however require an investment of one Black mana, which can create awkward situations when attempting to bring him back. He's generally played at no more than a two-of in most sideboards and is still a relatively solid choice if you have a sideboard plan that can support his substitution.


Firestorm

Recently, a card was printed that completely changed the dynamic of how we as Dredge players build our sideboards. It's a card called Scavenging Ooze, and it's a bitch to deal with. Basically at this point in Legacy it is the bane of Dredge's existence as Maverick decks running Green Sun's Zenith can fetch it up in a pinch. It is imperative to have an answer to this creature at the ready, and no other card does it better than Firestorm.

The thing about Firestorm that completely separates it from other discard outlets is that it is able to do a massive amount of damage to your opponents' creatures - and your opponents - and the fact is the discard part of the card is an additional cost, so no matter what happens the cards you selected to discard are headed to the graveyard no matter what. At one mana, this is an incredibly good answer in dealing with Ooze and clearing the way against fast decks like Affinity and Elves, where creatures can swarm the board in a hurry.

Take note too of the fact that when you discard a Bridge from Below to Firestorm, it can potentially be exiled if you can't kill any of your own creatures upon resolution. However, sometimes it's a small price to pay if you need to wipe their board in a hurry. The card is a blowout and very hard to play around.


Nature's Claim, Ancient Grudge, Ray of Revelation, Chain of Vapor

Understandably, Dredge is going to have to fight through other kinds of varied hate in cards such as Tormod's Crypt, Surgical Extraction, and Leyline of the Void. While it is not uncommon at all to run into these forms of hate, it is very important that one learns how to play around them by supplementing their primary strategy with some measure of anti-hate. There have been some arguments as to what to run and how many of each you should run, but the fact is that the Dredge sideboard is even more subjective than the Dredge main-deck and therefore grants the deck-builder a bit of flexibility as far as configurations go.

Good hate in the hands of an inexperienced opponent can allow you to capitalize on play mistakes, such as blowing a Crypt too early or 'Extracting incorrect cards. If you play around this hate with at least some level of distinct aggression, you can win the game at hand. Remember, your opponents are generally the ones that are at the mercy of an aggressive mulligan post-board in the dire hopes of trying to stay alive via hate, and that alone somewhat offsets the effectiveness of the hate in the sense that sometimes a clock is substituted immediately for hate, thus giving you a turn or two to recover.

If your opponent cannot find a threat to nail down quickly, the game can swing back in your favor abruptly. Here is a slightly edited excerpt from the original primer where Parcher discusses his views on Grudge/Ray versus said hate:

"In this deck, costing two is reason enough to discount a card. Ray is specifically in this category since one of it's main purposes is removing Leyline of the Void. So the Flashback often will be irrelevant. Grudge is a bit more useful since while there are a smaller number of problematic artifacts, you need to deal with the few that are played immediately. Grudge can also force the early use of a Relic or Crypt.

The most difficult obstacle to overcome when learning to play this deck is the situations and frequency with which you must mulligan (a key point here; mulligan strategy is critical in Dredge no matter what game you're on). Not only are there specific needs for your opening hand, but they may change depending on your opponent, what game it is, and who is on the play. As a very general rule, there are four things you are looking for in your opening hand: lands, a discard outlet, a dredger, or a draw effect. Some cards count as both, but only in conjunction with others. I've found that in most cases if you don't have at least three of these four requirements then you must mulligan. If you have multiple draw spells, or are playing what you know is a good match/slow deck, this can vary a little. I can't stress enough how important it is to force yourself to mulligan hands without these needs, and to then learn when you can risk breaking that rule."

He is one-hundred percent correct here. Knowing when to mulligan a hand that doesn't have a good enough shot at powering through hate or being able to strictly do what the deck is supposed to do should be shipped back at a moment's notice. Take into consideration though the other factors involved here that Parcher touched on, namely what you're playing against. Stock lists are bit easier to identify as far as hate goes, but it also depends on the style of the player.

Think as long as you're realistically allowed to, goldfish and test as much as you can and you'll be just fine. It takes time to learn how to play the deck like with anything. Again, subjectivity is key here and a Dredge sideboard can consist of any number of anti-hate cards, but a good number to start with is generally eight (8). This gives you at least some flexibility to answer various archetypes and allows you some other slots to work with. Consider what is popular in your meta and what sort of hate is being used against you and adjust accordingly. Always keep your sideboard open to change; that's what makes a good deck-builder and someone who knows the ins and outs of their deck.

Remember, Dredge is a deck people love to hate and you'll be typecast as the kind of player who thrives on running a deck like it in tournaments. You might even do well with it. If you do, expect to make plenty of mistakes with it even in victory and understand that even though the raw power of the deck can sometimes push you to wins, it is important to understand what you did right as well as wrong and what you can do to correct it.


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Dredge Variations.

The evolution of Dredge since its debut has certainly been both prosperous and tumultuous. Some variations of Dredge in Legacy have experienced more success than others, and now that we have a better understanding as to the cards that make up the core of the archetype we can look at the various types of Dredge decks that exist.


Manaless Dredge

Manaless Dredge is easily one of the greatest anomalies the format has ever witnessed. Basically, Manaless Dredge eschews running lands and focuses primarily on moving straight to the Cleanup Step where it will have discarded a dredger into its graveyard and creating little (if any) interaction with an opponent. From there, the Manaless player can proceed to accelerate a dredger using cards like Street Wraith in order to fuel its graveyard faster.

Ideally, a Manaless deck wants to max out on the number of Ichorids and Nether Shadows in order to create a very threat-dense list that can be incredibly hard to stop. Additionally, Dread Return fills a huge role in the deck as it is fully capable of being able to not only recur its threats and make Zombies, it can bring back a serious threat in the form of a specialized Dread Return target that can win the game for said player immediately.

Manaless Dredge has certainly evolved since the summer of 2011 when Mental Misstep was still flourishing in the format. I have personally taken the deck and attempted to transcend into the current age of Legacy where decks like RUG and BUG have become more and more predominant. My personal variation of Manaless Dredge has been quite successful, having secured multiple NELC Top 4s/8s in addition to scoring big at numerous other Invitational Qualifiers. Understand that Manaless Dredge always wants to draw first, which can be a red flag for some players fully aware of what to expect. The surprise factor is relinquished if you win the die roll, and sometimes that can be enough if your start is slow enough. Manaless Dredge has fallen out of the spotlight in recent months as people began to realize that sometimes necessitating lands can be incredibly important in not only being aggressive with your accelerates but for defense as well.

For reference, here is my current list:


4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Street Wraith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Phantasmagorian
3 Contagion
1 Sickening Shoal
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Dread Return
3 Griselbrand
2 Flayer of the Hatebound

4 Dryad Arbor

//Sideboard
4 Reverent Silence
3 Noxious Revival
2 Nature's Claim
2 Sickening Shoal
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Contagion

The list has performed very well in recent months. If you're looking to try something unique and different, look no further than Manaless Dredge.


LED Dredge

As the title indicates, this is a Dredge variant that goes straight-up combo and abuses the degeneracy of Lion's Eye Diamond in conjunction with the draw spells we had already talked about. While LED Dredge can certainly be incredibly fast, it can also be inconsistent at times. Most Dredge decks already mulligan very aggressively in search of the cards Parcher mentioned, so you have to understand that sometimes your opening hand will not always have the "goods."

Since the printing of Faithless Looting, LED has become incredibly popular as far as playability in Dredge goes. Here is the list that recently Top 8'ed Grand Prix: Indianapolis by Ando Ferguson:

1 Flayer of the Hatebound
2 Ichorid
3Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
4 Breakthrough
4 Faithless Looting
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

//Sideboard
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Firestorm
2 Ichorid
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Angel of Despair

As you can see, the Flayer of the Hatebound finish is incredibly instrumental in how the deck wins its games. It runs the traditional components of any LED list but goes with the combo finish. A lot of folks right now are on the fence still about Dread Return, but Ando Ferguson certainly proved at least some people wrong here. The raw power of Lion's Eye Diamond can just be too much sometimes for opponents to handle, no matter how good or how prepared they might be.


Quadlazer LED Dredge

As the title indicates, the "Quadlazer" LED Dredge deck employs a very straight-forward strategy: max out on every single spell and land to add some raw consistency to the deck's plan. This list is unique in that it has the ability to basically find whatever it needs more often, running a very flat and standard number of draw spells and dredgers. This strategy has worked relatively well in the European meta-game and is seldom seen in U.S. lists (for whatever reason). It's primary strengths lie in its consistency, but it can also make sideboarding a little difficult.

When you max out on four-ofs throughout your entire deck, it can be a little awkward when deciding on what cards to bring in post-board because you have to trim down on cards that were potentially of great use in stabilizing the deck to begin with. Removing dredgers can be a mistake, and sometimes folks tend to remove the LED's in match-ups they shouldn't, which is where cheap game losses come into play.

For reference, here is a basic Quadlazer LED Dredge list:

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Bridge from Below
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

//Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Nature's Claim
3 Ashen Ghoul
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Tarnished Citadel

While the sideboard is completely up for interpretation, the first sixty appear to be pretty standard. However, with this balance comes a slight degree of understanding how the deck mulligans. A list running all four-ofs can also dredge into more dead weight early on, which is generally not good. That is alleviated in knowing though that the threat density has been maxed-out with four Ichorids, which can be powerful under the right set of circumstances.

Also one thing to note here is that a list maxing out on its cards can also be hurt more frequently from Surgical Extraction, one of the most prevalent hate spells in the format. It's a card that yearns to get the most value out of its target, and by running four of everything you open the door to some serious trouble.

Still, success is success and it is still arguably the most popular form of Dredge in Europe today - quite standard.


Non-LED Dredge

Whether cost is a barrier or someone just wants to skip it over, eschewing LED's can be a decision based on a variety of reasons. Some people feel as though trading the raw speed of the card with something more permanent-based like Tireless Tribe is a better method overall and allows you warm bodies for Dread Return and Therapy. However in doing so you are slowly draining the "combo" feel out of the deck by removing its most broken accelerate in the process. This can be a factor, but those who have purposely decided to skip playing it in favor of older, more traditional lists obviously have a better grasp of understanding the intricacies as far as what to play in its stead.

It should be noted that Lion's Eye Diamond is an irreplaceable card and as such should be heavily considered given the power that a card like Faithless Looting provides with it. (Not to sell a point on it, or anything.)

Here is a list that decided not to run LED back in 2011 that, while without Faithless Looting, still proved effective in a large field of players - the Bazaar of Moxen V (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20880-Bazaar-of-Moxen-5-Top-4-with-LEDless-Dredge):

3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Narcomoeba

2 Dread Return
4 Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Tarnished Citadel

//Sideboard
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Realm Razer
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Hypnotist
4 Nature's Claim
4 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Darkblast

As you can see, this list was obviously tailored without Lion's Eye Diamond and uses the outlet of Tireless Tribe to create broken draw spells turn two. While not nearly as fast as LED Dredge, Non-LED Dredge has the capability of completely blowing the doors off someone ill-prepared to deal with it, in addition to having a bit more consistency as far as controlling its dredges games two and three. That can actually be quite relevant when you consider that in today's Legacy cards like Surgical Extraction exist far more than they did before.


_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Dredge 'Hitmen.'

When you choose to play Dredge, you have to accept the fact that there are cards in the respective format you're playing in that will cause you problems. You need to learn to accept this and understand that Legacy and Vintage are formats where graveyard hate is plentiful, and even played main deck in some instances. Once you learn to accept this reality you can then focus on assimilating the more common enemies that you will likely encounter in a competitive tournament.

Let me be very frank here: people do not like Dredge. At all. With that being said, let's take a look at some of the most prolific cards we as Dredge players will have to face at some time or another.

Scavenging Ooze

Ah yes, Scavenging Ooze. It's one of the most annoying creatures any Dredge player will have to deal with. At the cost of two mana, your opponent will subsequently use this grave-eating machine to deplete your graveyard of useful creatures and spells. Make no mistake, Scavenging Ooze is a pain for Dredge to deal with. However, it's not so much a problem for LED Dredge variants as they are capable of exploding before the player using Scavenging Ooze has time to activate it.

Additionally, few players run more than two which means they must open with it in hand or use something like Green Sun's Zenith to retrieve it. It's one of the most common cards used to combat graveyard strategies main deck in Legacy today.

How To Beat It: If you want to beat Ooze, you should run some sort of removal in either your sideboard or main deck in the form of Firestorm, Contagion or Sickening Shoal. These cards will generally blow an opponent out if they are predicating a shady keep with an Ooze in hand, which works in your favor. You can also just win before they have the opportunity to use it, which is usually the best course of action.


Deathrite Shaman

One of the most powerful one-drops ever printed. Legacy right now is thriving with this creature at the ready in most decks that go the BUG or Rock-route. Either way, it's strictly speaking a nuisance for Dredge players because of how quickly it can get online and how versatile it is main deck. You're more than likely going to encounter this creature at a competitive event right now, so be forewarned you have to anticipate a strategy to beat it one way or another.

Shaman also has its disadvantages to said player, too. LED Dredge has the ability to plow through your deck before this card becomes relevant and Manaless variants run Contagion, Shoal and Street Wraith. Opening with a good hand generally takes Shaman by the balls.

How To Beat It: Understand that Shaman costs one mana - so to beat it you need to have enough removal in your sideboard or an explosive start to combat it before it becomes relevant. Removal as mentioned will be able to slow the player using it down, and Street Wraith (and even Phantasmagorian) is especially brutal as it's able to just go off without worrying about the card that is targeted. Dredge has the ability to start and finish fast, so Shaman in that respect can simply be outgunned when you compare explosive capabilities from the Dredge player and their opponent.


Rest in Peace

I hate this card. A lot. Not because I lose to it necessarily, but because it is yet another "flavor of the month" card that is seeing lots of play - especially in Europe (having just won the title there). Rest in Peace is used in a combo deck with Helm of Obedience, an innocuous combination that for some reason people are getting their panties all up in a bunch over. That aside, you're still going to have to accept its relevance in the format today, although that could change relatively fast.

Rest in Peace decks also use Enlightened Tutor, which is even more of a problem.

How To Beat It: You'll ideally have to race this card if you're on the Manaless plan. That or use Noxious Revival, Claim and Reverent Silence to try and combat it. Those cards can be sufficient as most RiP decks use other enchantments like Counterbalance and Energy Field, so Silence has major application there.

As for other Dredge variants, there are more than enough ways to stop RiP: Claim, Chain and Ray of Revelation (with the trigger on the stack). LED Dredge should have little trouble stopping this strategy, however because there is a chance you can whiff off a quick start - you're opening yourself to getting blown out faster. Thankfully, we have draw and filter which can find us ways to remove this annoying card from our eyesight.


Relic of Progenitus and Tormod's Crypt

Relic and Crypt are cards that see play and should also be considered when playing Dredge. They can eradicate a player's graveyard, all graveyards and draw a card in the process. Both are relatively fair cards that don't see a whole lot of play these days, but are still threats and should be treated as such.

How To Beat It: You can't really do much about either when they hit the table because their activation cost is free - aside from Relic's secondary ability. However, you can force a player to use them with anti-hate or entice them to pull the trigger on it sooner than they'd like. This necessitates some Jedi mind-tricks (seriously) and in some instances stacking your graveyard (which you can legally do when you dredge) to make your graveyard look more aesthetically attractive for them to remove immediately.

It's also important to "slow dredge" in the event an opponent has either of these out. This means you should be dredging at a minimal amount to soften the blow of an activation attempt. After an opponent does this you can then pull the trigger on whatever explosive capability you have in hand.


Leyline of the Void

Leyline is similar to Rest in Peace, yet a bit different. You see, Leyline of the Void is a card that forces the player running it to mulligan aggressively for it if they don't think their deck can support itself without the help of Leyline early in the game. This strategy works to your advantage because it is entirely possible your opponent will mulligan low enough to find it with a terrible hand.

On the flip side of things, an opponent could possibly nail one in their opening seven. This would necessitate an immediate response from the Dredge player as an unanswered Leyline normally spells doom if unprepared.

How To Beat It: Reverent Silence, Claim, Chain, Ray of Revelation (with mana) and any other form of enchantment removal will do the trick. Leyline is actually quite easy to beat, as typically you're running more anti-hate for it (five to six slots) than they are running normally with their hate - just the four Leylines. This typically means that your chances of opening with any one of six anti-hate spells is about 54.14% to their 39.95% (and dwindling depending on mulligans). Granted, this percentage doesn't take into account lands enabling you to knock out a Leyline - but it should be encouraging to know you have a statistically good chance of fighting one early on.


Grafdigger's Cage

Someone asked me recently what the one card I never wanted to see played against me was, to which I hesitantly responded: "Grafdigger's Cage." I honestly never like seeing this card hit play against me because it's really that good. That doesn't mean we can't beat it, but it certainly is annoying (especially if you're not playing many lands).

How To Beat It: Artifact removal is the only way, really. That or hoping and crossing your fingers that an opponent doesn't draw into one before you win - which is entirely possible.


Extirpate and Surgical Extraction

Again, more common hate - with the former less as much. At one point, Surgical Extraction in conjunction with Snapcaster Mage was at an all-time high but has since died down. These cards still see competitive play but are still less viable against most Dredge variants. If your deck is as threat dense as Manaless is, the last thing you care about is an opponent targeting one of close to a half-dozen relevant cards.

How To Beat It: Really the only thing besides stripping them blindly from an opponent's hand with Therapy (if they allow it) is to man up and accept their choice. However, cards like Street Wraith (against Extraction) and conditioning your sideboard with cards like Ashen Ghoul will help soften the damage of their target.

A skilled opponent will generally target the most relevant choices at a particular moment in the game. In most instances, it really doesn't matter if your draw spells or discard effects contain more dredgers or attackers that weren't hit.


Faerie Macabre

Faerie is another card you kind of just have to expect some decks to have. It's more of an uncommon form of hate, but decks like Elves seem to like running them as a few-of. It's probably the hardest of all graveyard-hate cards to stop because it's impossible to expect and stop at the same time. It's also a card that has application in Dredge sideboards itself, which is also worth noting.

How To Beat It: Faerie Macabre is a card that can only be stripped from an opponent's hand with Therapy, really. That or cycling a Street Wraith to counter an early one on your single dredger in Manaless. LED Dredge has to accept a potential blowout when discarding their hand, but you still have lots of draw to find other dredgers. Additionally, some rare sideboards contain Pithing Needle; a cute sideboard option that has some application against more popular hate cards in the format today.



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I would just like to close by saying that I believe Dredge to be by far the most personal archetype in all of Magic currently in existence. I say that because while the deck has endured through years of hate and managed to stick to the basic core group of cards that make up the general foundation of the deck, people tend to like putting their own stamp on their own unique builds. Understand that Dredge is a completely subjective archetype, but it takes an incredibly knowledgeable player who understands the intricacies of the interactions with the cards in the deck as well as playing the best situational Magic they possibly can.

Having said all of that, I can say for certain that in order to play Dredge successfully, you should follow these three simple rules:

1. Know When To Mulligan and How To Mulligan Properly.

I can't stress it enough. I learned through hundreds - if not thousands - of goldfishes and games that you have to be okay with dropping a hand if you don't think it's acceptable. Going back to a quote by Parcher:

"The most difficult obstacle to overcome when learning to play this deck is the situations and frequency with which you must mulligan. Not only are there specific needs for your opening hand, but they may change depending on your opponent, what game it is, and who is on the play. As a very general rule, there are four things you are looking for in your opening hand; Mana, Discard, Dredger, and Draw. Some cards count as both, but only in conjunction with others. I've found that in most cases if you don't have at least three of these four requirements that you must mulligan. If you have multiple draw spells, or are playing what you know is a good match/slow deck, this can vary a little. Some combinations such as LED+Coliseum, or LED+DA allow you to break this since Lion's Eye Diamond acts as Mana and Discard, but this is an exception. I can't stress enough how important it is to force yourself to mulligan hands without these needs, and to then learn when you can risk breaking that rule."

This is completely true. I brought this up before, and I'm doing it again: this is the single biggest factor that separates good Dredge players from the novice ones. Don't be afraid to ship; I've seen more busted three and four card hands with this deck than seven card hands. While not necessarily the ideal strategy, that is what this deck is capable of - notably the LED variants.

2. Don't Forget to Stack and Remember Your Triggers Properly.

Speaks for itself. You have to remember your triggers - it's what makes the deck work. Do not forget your Narcomoebas. Do not forget to stack the Bridge triggers in your favor whenever applicable. Do not forget your Ichorids; they're in there for a reason (this also means try not to hide cards or pile cards in your graveyard. You'll likely forget the Ichorids are in there for a turn and it will cost you dearly). And do not forget that Cabal Therapy and Dread Return facilitate tokens - that's what makes them great here.

3. Know When To Pull the Trigger.

Sometimes, when you're on the play, it's okay to go all-in on a single line of play. Remember that a lot of decks weak to Dredge have brought in some amount of hate, and for good reason. If they can't find it, they'll mulligan for it - putting them right on par with your aggressive mulligan strategy. That is alleviated, however, knowing that your starts are generally more broken than theirs at any given time. Sometimes a little "psyche-out" tactic like an enthusiastic 'snap-keep' can throw an opponent down a tail-spin of bad mulligans. I've done it many times.

There is nothing more powerful than knowing you dictate the pace and mulligan strategy of your opponents' starts. Establishing an advantage like that before the game begins is incredibly potent, and I've even done it myself in numerous circumstances, mostly sealing victories in the process. If you follow these simple rules (and I'm sure there are others; these happen to be mine), you can play Dredge with the best of them. It will take time to get good with the deck, but that's okay if you're dedicated to playing one of the most degenerate and hated strategies in all of competitive Legacy.


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NecroYawgmoth
03-26-2012, 01:50 AM
<3 the new primer.

Big thank you. Keep on the good work. =D

K1w1
03-26-2012, 03:02 AM
Nice Primer!

And congratz to your finish.

Lusian
03-26-2012, 04:58 AM
Can we have links to videos of people playing Dredge, just like in the TES thread?
Pritty please =)
Also give some love to Terastodon =)

Sedris
03-26-2012, 05:48 AM
Maybe there should be a Quodlazer List (or a List without Dread Return, because it's not absolute necessary).

Good Primer though.

Blitzbold
03-26-2012, 08:35 AM
Thank you very much! Will there be another part about other important aspects, e.g. sideboarding? There was a lot of discussion going on in the old thread about boarding out LED an so on.

Michael Keller
03-26-2012, 09:36 AM
Thank you.

Yes, all of those things are going to be added to the primer. Sideboarding, etc.

HokusSchmokus
03-26-2012, 09:52 AM
Looks really good so far!

Wereodile
03-26-2012, 11:25 AM
Your Effort is Greatly Appreciated! Solid primer and gave me a major refresher.

Vandalize
03-26-2012, 11:55 AM
Nice primer Hollywood! That was some really good reading. Although it's a bit too formal for my taste.

When you get a chance, add some Matchups Analysis on the most common decks in the current metagame (Maverick, Stoneblade, Nic Fit/Rock, RUG, Storm, Burn/Sligh, etc...).

It would also be very helpful to new players if you could go a little deeper in Cabal Therapy, I mean... Some guide of when to play it, what to name (against given decks), etc...

I also agree that Quadlaser List should be there somewhere, as the common sense agreed that's the most resilient list.

jares
03-26-2012, 02:38 PM
The primer looks great. I'll be looking forward to the sideboarding sections.

Cheers,
jares

Godmode
03-26-2012, 06:28 PM
Looks really good so far!

NewDredgePlayer
03-26-2012, 06:37 PM
Thanks for the awesome primer Hollywood. Could you explain stacking bridge triggers for maximum benefit? An example would be great.

Vandalize
03-26-2012, 08:25 PM
Thanks for the awesome primer Hollywood. Could you explain stacking bridge triggers for maximum benefit? An example would be great.

Fairly simple examples:

1) You attack with 2 Ichorids (having 1 bridge in the graveyard). Your opponent blocks one Ichorid with a Noble Hierarch. In combat phase, they all receive damage at the same time, and they go to graveyard at the same time. Both triggered abilities from Bridge from Below are put in the stack in the order YOU CHOOSE (you get priority because it's your turn). So the correct stack order should be: Get tokens first, and exile Bridge after. If you do the opposite, you won't get tokens in the process, because Bridge won't be in your graveyard anymore when the second trigger is about to resolve.

2) You Firestorm with X=4, hitting your Opponent, 2 of his creatures and 1 Narcomoeba of your own (with bridge in graveyard, ofc). The same happens: All the damage is done at the same time once when the spell resolves, and all creatures are supposed to die at the same time. Both triggered abilities are put on the stack, and you can also choose the order of the stack because you can maintain priority after resolving a spell. That being said, you can put your Narcomoeba dying trigger first, and the exile trigger after.

AEnesidem
03-26-2012, 08:38 PM
Fairly simple examples:

1) You attack with 2 Ichorids (having 1 bridge in the graveyard). Your opponent blocks one Ichorid with a Noble Hierarch. In combat phase, they all receive damage at the same time, and they go to graveyard at the same time. Both triggered abilities from Bridge from Below are put in the stack in the order YOU CHOOSE (you get priority because it's your turn). So the correct stack order should be: Get tokens first, and exile Bridge after. If you do the opposite, you won't get tokens in the process, because Bridge won't be in your graveyard anymore when the second trigger is about to resolve.

2) You Firestorm with X=4, hitting your Opponent, 2 of his creatures and 1 Narcomoeba of your own (with bridge in graveyard, ofc). The same happens: All the damage is done at the same time once when the spell resolves, and all creatures are supposed to die at the same time. Both triggered abilities are put on the stack, and you can also choose the order of the stack because you can maintain priority after resolving a spell. That being said, you can put your Narcomoeba dying trigger first, and the exile trigger after.

a quick question. Can You only choose the trigger order on your turn ?
for example the opponent attacks with a 1/1 and you block with a thug. both die at the same time and you have 2 bridges in the grave. Do you get to choose the trigger order or your opponent?

Vandalize
03-26-2012, 08:46 PM
a quick question. Can You only choose the trigger order on your turn ?
for example the opponent attacks with a 1/1 and you block with a thug. both die at the same time and you have 2 bridges in the grave. Do you get to choose the trigger order or your opponent?

Yes, you can. The only way for you to lose your triggers is when there's some other event other than normal combat (Mogg Fanatic sacrifice in combat phase, for example).

In the case you described, you will get the tokens, and bridge is exiled after.

Mojeh
03-26-2012, 09:16 PM
If Ichorid becomes blocked by a Noble Hierarch, just the Hierarch dies, and you don't put tokens, but I got your point... just to clarify.
And about the triggers, actually you have to put "exile Bridge" into the stack first, so "put a token" resolves first.

joemauer
03-26-2012, 09:28 PM
Thanks for the new primer Hollywood.

I agree with everyone else about the German dredge list being in there somewhere, despite the fact I don't like any list lacking Dread Return.

I believe sideboarding strategies are probably too subjective to put in this primer.

Cabal Therapy tips would be a nice add on.

Also, talk about why cards like entomb and unmask are bad and should not be run, please.

Vandalize
03-26-2012, 11:41 PM
If Ichorid becomes blocked by a Noble Hierarch, just the Hierarch dies, and you don't put tokens, but I got your point... just to clarify.
And about the triggers, actually you have to put "exile Bridge" into the stack first, so "put a token" resolves first.

Yeah, Noble Hierarch was a really poor example. But about the triggers on the stack, you can just choose what's resolving first, you don't really have to make a 'resolving pile'.

jares
03-27-2012, 12:45 AM
Thanks for the new primer Hollywood.

I agree with everyone else about the German dredge list being in there somewhere, despite the fact I don't like any list lacking Dread Return.
I might be mistaken, but I think that the lists that are usually being noted in primers are the ones that have achieved significant success, if any. I'm unsure of whether or not the quadlazer list fits that description (it probably does).

Also, talk about why cards like entomb and unmask are bad and should not be run, please.
The occasional use of Darkslick Shores and its repercussions might also be worth mentioning somewhere.

Cheers,
jares

jares
03-27-2012, 12:51 AM
Yeah, Noble Hierarch was a really poor example. But about the triggers on the stack, you can just choose what's resolving first, you don't really have to make a 'resolving pile'.
I might be mistaken, but strictly speaking, I do think that a "resolving pile" needs to be properly sorted to avoid any technicalities that could complicate things. These triggers all happen simultaneously, and we do need to order all of them before resolving any - and I believe that Mojeh is correct in that we do need to put the "exile triggers" on the stack first so that these triggers are "pushed" to the bottom of the stack by the "token triggers", thus allowing the token triggers to resolve first.

Do let us know if we're mistaken.

Cheers,
jares

Mojeh
03-27-2012, 12:56 AM
Yeah, Noble Hierarch was a really poor example. But about the triggers on the stack, you can just choose what's resolving first, you don't really have to make a 'resolving pile'.

Usually yes, I am just saying because I had trouble explaining the stacking once.
It's always good to let your opponent know that you are aware of what you're doing exactly.
On a related topic, it might be useful to declare every relevant phase beginning, triggers, stacking and etc. I've seen many times the opponent saying "before entering that phase", or "before triggers", and so on. That will help yourself to remember every step, as it becomes spontaneous.

jares
03-27-2012, 01:13 AM
Usually yes, I am just saying because I had trouble explaining the stacking once.
It's always good to let your opponent know that you are aware of what you're doing exactly.
On a related topic, it might be useful to declare every relevant phase beginning, triggers, stacking and etc. I've seen many times the opponent saying "before entering that phase", or "before triggers", and so on. That will help yourself to remember every step, as it becomes spontaneous.
I actually do this on purpose, announcing every phase, trigger, and response out loud just to make sure that everything is properly played-out, even when nothing really happens in a certain phase for that turn. Doing this also helps remind me of these triggers too, minimizing the likelihood that I'll do a misplay by forgetting a trigger (and we do work with a lot of triggers).

Cheers,
jares

Michael Keller
03-27-2012, 01:15 AM
Report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23436-Report-Dredging-to-Glory-13th-Place-at-SCG-Baltimore.&p=628643#post628643) is up!

Mojeh
03-27-2012, 01:33 AM
@Jares: I do that too, really works as a mnemonic solution ^^

@Hollywood: Congratz on your finish! =D
Would you play a different list if you could?
I guess the Firestorms were underused, I am right?
Maybe -3 Firestorm, +1 Nature's Claim, +1 Elesh +1 something.

Michael Keller
03-27-2012, 01:47 AM
Firestorm is one of those cards that, while incredibly useful for what it does, still is only used in those match-ups where it can truly shine - like Affinity and Elves. Those decks are fast, but this deck can be just as fast if not faster.

I am not so sure cutting Firestorm is a good idea just yet, but to be honest its primary use was against Maverick and even then if you're staring down a turn one Mother of Runes, you either have to kill it (using Firestorm) or go all-in with LED, which is a much better plan.

I would actually consider going with another Darkblast into the sideboard, making it a 1/1 split. That card is just awesome. Additionally, if you're running against Elves or Affinity, sometimes just straight up Combo to kill them is the best course of action, of course bringing in Grudge and Claim for those problematic artifacts like Plating. Firestorm still is incredibly good in those match-ups, so cutting it would be hard.

At this point, I don't know if I would cut it. Probably not. I like three Claims and one Ray; that seems fine against decks running bad cards like Leyline, which we can dig for with our filter spells if we already don't have it or mulligan for it. Ray gives you additional inevitability in the event it is dredged and gives you that two for one against decks like Enchantress.

As for Elesh, you can run it, but I never do because Reanimator is kind of a lost cause. If you're running LED, you can race the Reanimator player game one. Game two you can adjust accordingly, but I don't see a lot of it in my meta which is why I didn't overload on grave-hate in my sideboard for the Open. I played two Purge, which can act as a four-of in the event they're dredged, and that's good enough. They wound up being great in the mirror, hitting the key cards at key times.

Faerie Macabre is fine, but I don't like having to mulligan to find it - not in this build.

jares
03-27-2012, 04:15 AM
I am not so sure cutting Firestorm is a good idea just yet, but to be honest its primary use was against Maverick and even then if you're staring down a turn one Mother of Runes, you either have to kill it (using Firestorm) or go all-in with LED, which is a much better plan.

I find that Firestorm helps in the situations where the opponent already has the advantage - something that LED doesn't seem to be very good at. Being able to go all-in with LED without being disrupted is definitely a good thing, but it seems to me that this scenario is still within the bounds of what I would treat as a favorable situation.

It isn't that LED is a win-more card (because there definitely are match-ups and scenarios that you would otherwise be unable to win without LED) - it's just that I feel that LED isn't very helpful in the direst of situations, which is probably why a lot of people do board it out in games 2 and 3 (which might not always be wise).

Kind Regards,
jares

Sedris
03-27-2012, 04:56 AM
I might be mistaken, but I think that the lists that are usually being noted in primers are the ones that have achieved significant success, if any. I'm unsure of whether or not the quadlazer list fits that description (it probably does).

Quodlazer only achieved success in germany, but i think, if some guys would have played it on gp indy, there would have been more dredge in the t8, because the facts are, that the quodlazer lists, or the quodlazer -1 ichorid -1 pimp +2 citadel -lists are more consistent, than the Lists which run DR. But nobody can prove that, unfortunally.

jares
03-27-2012, 05:51 AM
Quodlazer only achieved success in germany, but i think, if some guys would have played it on gp indy, there would have been more dredge in the t8, because the facts are, that the quodlazer lists, or the quodlazer -1 ichorid -1 pimp +2 citadel -lists are more consistent, than the Lists which run DR. But nobody can prove that, unfortunally.
Honestly, as I have previously noted in the now old thread, I believe that "consistency" can be quantified into a numerical value that defines the likelihood of an event ever happening. It will be wildly complicated to summarize everything into one number (I don't even want to think about trying that), but I try to simplify things by evaluating the probabilities concerning the following:

Opening Hand
In-game lines of play (probability of top-decking a card, dredging into one of the graveyard-relevant pieces, etc.).
Specific scenarios that are tagged as major concerns (sideboard-related issues, addressing anti-hate, etc.)

I might be missing some things in this list, but this is what I could think of at the moment.

Having said all that, I think that these differences in configuration are really based on what we want the deck to do "consistently" (e.g. DR to combo-off, LED to win in the first few turns, Phantasmagorian to avoid interaction, etc.) rather than on the contrast of which "plan" is able to win more often.

I hope that helps.

Cheers,
jares

HokusSchmokus
03-27-2012, 07:38 AM
@Hollywood: Maybe move the 4th Therapy back in the main? That would clear one board spot for darkblast.


@Sedris

Actually Quadlaser is at least of what I know the best performing list in Europe "officially"
with Julian Top4ing Eternal Weekend Mol

Also, I think our group has quite some power in store for BoM, we have to continue the trend Erik(Brot_ohne_Kruste) started:P

I call it now: One of us 5 or 6 people fromn germany repping the dredge at BoM will at least top16, likely top8

Sedris
03-27-2012, 07:43 AM
Opening Hand
In-game lines of play (probability of top-decking a card, dredging into one of the graveyard-relevant pieces, etc.).
Specific scenarios that are tagged as major concerns (sideboard-related issues, addressing anti-hate, etc.)

I might be missing some things in this list, but this is what I could think of at the moment.

Having said all that, I think that these differences in configuration are really based on what we want the deck to do "consistently" (e.g. DR to combo-off, LED to win in the first few turns, Phantasmagorian to avoid interaction, etc.) rather than on the contrast of which "plan" is able to win more often.

I hope that helps.

Cheers,
jares

I just think that the DR plan is weaker than playing 8 Study effects +4 Breakthrough and +4 Therapy for fast gaining of zombies/ichorids and moebas. Not playing DR and its targets leaves more slots open for outlets & drawspells >>> less mulligans.

e.g.: A Flayer List wants these cards to Dredge in: 2-3 Dread Return, 1 Flayer/target xy, 4 Narcomoeba, 2-3 Ichorid, 3-4 Cabal Therapy, 4 Bridge from Below (Black Creatures for Ichorids aren't counted). Ignoring Therapy, because it isn't a dead card in your hand often, you want 11-14 Cards in your Grave, so you play 11-14 potentially candidates for being dead cards in your hand. Usually, you play 12-14 from these dead cards, as i expected in Hollywoods list.

A Quodlazer List (or Quodlazer -2+2citadel) wants these cards to Dredge in: 4 Moebas, 3-4 Ichorid, 4 Bridge from Below and 4 Cabal Therapy (Black Creatures for Ichorids aren't counted). Ignoring Threrapy, because it isn't a dead card in your hand often, you want 11-12 Cards in you Grave, so you play 11-12 potentially candidates for being dead cards in your hand.

Yes, this says nothing until now.

The DR list has 3-4 Putrid Imp, 3-4 Careful Study, 3-4 Breakthrough, 3-4 Cabal Therapy, 4 Faithless Looting, 4 Lion's Eye Diamond as discard outlets, so in conclusion you have 22-24 discardoutlets, because you won't play only 3 Pimp, 3 study, 3 Bthrough and 3 Cabal, you just cut 1-2 from these down to 3 (otherwhise it would be 20-24). But normally, you won't go over 22.

The DR list only plays 11 Dredgers (just taking Hollywoods list in the primer as an example).

The Quodlazer list (or Quodlazer-2+2tarnished citadel) has 3-4 Putrid imp, 4 Careful Study, 4 Breakthrough, 4 Faithless Looting, 4 Cabal Therapy and 4 Lion's Eye Diamond as discardoutlets, which means you have potentially 23-24 Discard outlets, normally 24.

The Quodlazer plays 12 Dredgers, sometimes only 3 Thugs and 1 Darkblast, but 12, ever.

The normal Quodlazer list plays 12 Lands (the quodlazer-2+2 citadel plays 14, sometimes they play 13).

The DR List plays 13 lands (taking the one from the primer as an example again)

So in conclusion the DR List looks like this:

13 Lands (here cephalid coliseum is counted as a land, but i know, its more the good draweffect, than a blue mana source)
22 outlets
11 Dredgers
14 cards to dredge-in (means 14 potentially dead cards in your opening hand)

And the quodlazer like this:

12 Lands
24 outlets
12 Dredgers
12 cards to dredge-in (means 12 potentially dead cards in your opening hand)

Or, with -2+2 like this:

14 Lands
23 outlets
12 dredgers
11 cards to dredge-in (means 11 potentially dead cards in your opening hand)

Comparing the normal quodlazer with the DR-list...

...Dr plays +1 land >> less mulligans for lands
...Dr plays cirka +2 cards to dredge in >> more mulligans for potentially dead cards in hand, but if you dredge, you have a higher chance to hit relevant cards. Also, here you must calculate in, that dredging only flayer/drtargetxy, its a dead card in grave until you dredge dread return.

...Quodlazer plays +1 dredger >> less mulligans for hands without dredgers (yes, there are hands, you can keep without them)
...Quodlazer plays +2 outlets >> less mulligans for no outlet

Yes, the contrast is only marginally noticeable, but there is one.

So I can say, quodlazer is more consistent in doing their plan as fast as possible, than the DR list is consistent in doing their plan as fast as possible. ;)

Sedris
03-27-2012, 07:49 AM
@Hollywood: Maybe move the 4th Therapy back in the main? That would clear one board spot for darkblast.


@Sedris

Actually Quadlaser is at least of what I know the best performing list in Europe "officially"
with Julian Top4ing Eternal Weekend Mol

Also, I think our group has quite some power in store for BoM, we have to continue the trend Erik(Brot_ohne_Kruste) started:P

I call it now: One of us 5 or 6 people fromn germany repping the dredge at BoM will at least top16, likely top8

I wanted to go to BoM too, but i missed the train to the trial, and don't want to go there without byes.

But i'll be in ghent for sure ;)

HokusSchmokus
03-27-2012, 07:51 AM
I wanted to go to BoM too, but i missed the train to the trial, and don't want to go there without byes.

But i'll be in ghent for sure ;)

We didn't even have a trial near us yet...

Still, you should go there. Less byes= more dredgung!

Sedris
03-27-2012, 08:06 AM
We didn't even have a trial near us yet...

Still, you should go there. Less byes= more dredgung!

I live in austria, not in germany, and there was a trial in slovenjia, just mentioned.

But ure right, i should just go there for annihilating some more guys.

K1w1
03-27-2012, 10:14 AM
Please give me your results for BoM.
unfortunately i can't go to it, due to the date. Writing my final examination (21.5 - 25.5)
It isn't easy to travel from France to Germany at sunday night and write the examination. :mad::mad:
@Sedris: I don't think it has much to do with consistency. Moreover, you just don't need them. And what is consistent with LED in Dredge? Hmm, i sacrificed my LED : "ok, crypt! Remove it pls"
But you're right by saying that you will have more studies in your hand. (or breakthrough)

K1w1

Izor
03-27-2012, 10:15 AM
Awesome Primer and report, Hollywood. I fully appreciate the work, well done!


I'll agree that the German Quad list could be mentioned in the OP, it's arguably the most consistent LED lists in existence and it did show some good results over here in Germany and in Europe in general. Europe often sets the trends for the American Metagame (see Maverick or Pre-Lootings LEDless Dredge), so I'd at least expect it to be played more in the US in the future as well.



Different topic: I'm currently doing some extensive testing of the Quad list and my own LEDless list. I'm focusing on actual speed of the decks, because the only real way to collect empirical data for speed is to actually just goldfish both lists. I'm doing 50 goldfishes with both decks, collecting all the relevant information, and I hope to come to a valid conclusion that shows how much faster LED Dredge currently is, which list is more consistent and which list has to mulligan more, etc. It's something I'm doing for myseld, but I'll put it up here for everyone who's interested.

Fr_Apo
03-27-2012, 10:34 AM
Hey guys,

First of, I do love the new half of primer you did there.

I m french and had been running the old german list (the 8 dorks one) for years before misstep came in (played LED dredge previously but this time seems too far away to even be remembered).
Switched to LED dredge since Amsterdam (where I missed day two-ing thanks to being paired last round against Storm that were obviously faster and more resilient than me...), then faithless came out and the deck started to wreck out people again. I have been playing dredge for many years, just love to play magic the other way around.

I missed byes for the BoM last saturday (finished 3/87) but a friend of mine took 2 running 70/75 cards of the same dredge deck =) - Yeah 2 dredges top 3 in a 90ish people event, felt good.
I was running the GP Indy list with -1 dread return main +1 cabal therapy.
And this sb : 4 chain of vapor, 1 nature's claim, 2 nether shadow, 2 ichorid, 1 dread return, 1 iona, 1 elesh, 2 ancient grudge, 1 careful study.

Went :
2-0 vs enchantress that opened twice wheel of sun and moon in hand (winning the dice roll was key^^)
2-0 vs esperblade
2-0 vs cawcartell (mon goblin,chief's list)
2-0 vs TES (felt gooooooood)
2-0 vs elfball (flayer has stolen game one in a pretty manner in front of 12 elves ^^)
id
id
Quarterfinal : 2-0 vs esperblade
Semifinal : 1-2 vs dredge (my mate who finally won the tournament, I won g1 easily but he opened two faery macabre g2 and one g3 that sealed the deal :( )

The list felt really good all day.
I don't know how can you play with no DR main against deck like esperblade. Sure when they can't stop you from going off and lost dice roll you will just crush them but during testing and tournaments I won numerous game where I would have just been dead to batterskull nor jitte, my first esperblade opponent did stack 4 counters on his jitte but could'nt steal g1 where a simple aggro plan would have missed (he goes t1 thoughtseize + fow on my turn1, then wasteland t2...).
Also, DR is really mvp in MU where the opponent can remove your bridges pretty easily.

I definitely got to do more testing with your quadlaser to figure out good it is but I felt like you are trying to maximise the chance you have to get a perfect hand via chosing to lose to any complicate situation you can face.
What does your metagame look like?
In France, most people are running stoneblade(esper or not) / maverick and rug, and being sure to be faster than a turn two ooze on the draw seems really key to me while getting answers to fast batterskull snapped into play, rug MU in g1 seems not to change drastically no matter which list you run.

I wish you good luck on top8ing the BoM, hopping you won't be the only dredge deck getting in : )

Some questions to seal this post :
- Can we get your last quadlaser brew? The sideboard particularly.
- How are you feeling in the maverick match up?
- How are you siding in against esperblade? The match up feels pretty good but I am not quite sure about my sideboard tech.

Michael Keller
03-27-2012, 10:38 AM
At this point, in some match-ups I'm not so sure boarding out LED is the correct line of play. I kept it in against Maverick and blew the game open. It's seriously such a ridiculous enabler in this deck.

I'll be sure to update the O.P. with the Q. list.

jares
03-27-2012, 11:09 AM
Different topic: I'm currently doing some extensive testing of the Quad list and my own LEDless list. I'm focusing on actual speed of the decks, because the only real way to collect empirical data for speed is to actually just goldfish both lists. I'm doing 50 goldfishes with both decks, collecting all the relevant information, and I hope to come to a valid conclusion that shows how much faster LED Dredge currently is, which list is more consistent and which list has to mulligan more, etc. It's something I'm doing for myseld, but I'll put it up here for everyone who's interested.
I'll be looking forward to the results of this study. Given the number of possible combinations for the opening hand, I would suggest that you increase the sample size for the number of goldfishes as much as you can, as the reliability of your findings will really be dependent on the sample size. I'll be especially interested in the statistics for the mulligans, as I haven't personally looked into these figures under a microscope.

Cheers,
jares

jares
03-27-2012, 11:35 AM
Comparing the normal quodlazer with the DR-list...

...Dr plays +1 land >> less mulligans for lands
...Dr plays cirka +2 cards to dredge in >> more mulligans for potentially dead cards in hand, but if you dredge, you have a higher chance to hit relevant cards. Also, here you must calculate in, that dredging only flayer/drtargetxy, its a dead card in grave until you dredge dread return.

...Quodlazer plays +1 dredger >> less mulligans for hands without dredgers (yes, there are hands, you can keep without them)
...Quodlazer plays +2 outlets >> less mulligans for no outlet

Yes, the contrast is only marginally noticeable, but there is one.

So I can say, quodlazer is more consistent in doing their plan as fast as possible, than the DR list is consistent in doing their plan as fast as possible. ;)
I was thinking that you might want to do the same analysis for LEDless when compared to LED, much like what Izor is planning to do. That way, you guys can compare notes. :tongue:

Cheers,
jares

HokusSchmokus
03-27-2012, 12:22 PM
Please give me your results for BoM.
unfortunately i can't go to it, due to the date. Writing my final examination (21.5 - 25.5)
It isn't easy to travel from France to Germany at sunday night and write the examination. :mad::mad:
@Sedris: I don't think it has much to do with consistency. Moreover, you just don't need them. And what is consistent with LED in Dredge? Hmm, i sacrificed my LED : "ok, crypt! Remove it pls"
But you're right by saying that you will have more studies in your hand. (or breakthrough)

K1w1

Since I cannot get enough Bazaars for the sunday event, and Falk doesn't want to play vintage, too, we drive there saturday morning and leave the same day. I think there might still be a slot in the car.

igri_is_a_bk
03-27-2012, 12:27 PM
Thanks for the update, Hollywood. I just read through it and am looking forward to the more in-depth material.

One typo you could fix if you wanted. Golgari Thug is misspelled in the non-LED build listed. Also, you could add Iona, Terastadon, and Stalking Vengeance to the list of DR-targets.

jares
03-27-2012, 12:39 PM
Also, you could add Iona, Terastadon, and Stalking Vengeance to the list of DR-targets.
Sadistic Hypnotist and Realm Razer might also be worth mentioning.

Cheers,
jares

joemauer
03-27-2012, 12:40 PM
I might be mistaken, but I think that the lists that are usually being noted in primers are the ones that have achieved significant success, if any. I'm unsure of whether or not the quadlazer list fits that description (it probably does).

The occasional use of Darkslick Shores and its repercussions might also be worth mentioning somewhere.

Cheers,
jares

I would not run the German list just because of the lack of dread return. However, the Quadlaser list is the standard dredge deck over there. For that fact alone it should be at least mentioned. It is also an interesting take on the new faithless looting, a new and different perspective. This helps new dredge players(and old).

As Darkslick Shores goes, I used it in my LED list a year ago and won first/second place in a GP trial.:laugh: Faithless looting has made the black/blue dredge lists obsolete.

Felidae
03-27-2012, 12:42 PM
We didn't even have a trial near us yet...

Liar :P.

Out of curiosity: How many of you guys have experience with Vintage Dredge ( as I currently need some help with it)?
If someone is familiar with it and would be willing to share some tipps with me please send me a PN ( as I don't want to mess this fresh thread up so soon).

Thanks in advance.

Felidae_

HokusSchmokus
03-27-2012, 01:01 PM
Liar :P.

Out of curiosity: How many of you guys have experience with Vintage Dredge ( as I currently need some help with it)?
If someone is familiar with it and would be willing to share some tipps with me please send me a PN ( as I don't want to mess this fresh thread up so soon).

Thanks in advance.

Felidae_
Hm did I miss one? Well I'll be attenting Saturday in DDorf thanks to Necro:)
If I don't scrub out horribly expect a report.

jares
03-27-2012, 01:03 PM
As Darkslick Shores goes, I used it in my LED list a year ago and won first/second place in a GP trial.:laugh: Faithless looting has made the black/blue dredge lists obsolete.
Also, the emergence of a plethora of non-blue/non-black sideboard options has increased the importance of having access to gold lands. Maybe even Tireless Tribe might have a say regarding the use of Darkslick Shores. :tongue:

Cheers,
jares

Michael Keller
03-27-2012, 02:02 PM
Primer has been updated a bit with a few suggestions. I'll work on it some more later.

Felidae
03-27-2012, 03:36 PM
Hm did I miss one? Well I'll be attenting Saturday in DDorf thanks to Necro:)
If I don't scrub out horribly expect a report.

The last tourney in Bottrop was also a trial for BoM. Anyway good luck for saturday :D.

joemauer
03-27-2012, 03:59 PM
Also, the emergence of a plethora of non-blue/non-black sideboard options has increased the importance of having access to gold lands. Maybe even Tireless Tribe might have a say regarding the use of Darkslick Shores. :tongue:

Cheers,
jares

Faithless Looting is the only reason I run rainbow lands in my LED list.

Tireless Tribe has never been a staple in LED dredge.

As the sideboard goes, chain of vapor is the only card I feel is must have card(for LED builds).

Izor
03-27-2012, 04:16 PM
So as I’ve mentioned several times already, I haven’t been able to find a LED build that I liked over traditional LEDless up to now, even after Lootings. Compiling lists of advantages and disadvantages is one option to find one’s preferred version, but in the end, those lists had several more or less marginal points on LEDless’ side and actually 1 huge point on the LED side. The LED advantage is obviously raw speed, which includes all different kinds of aspects like racing Combo, racing Hate and so on and so forth. The LEDless side contained the following:

- More main board space (for DR, etc) and more sb space (no need for gold lands in the board)
- Better at playing around artifact-based hate

I deliberately excluded all kinds of consistency issues and mulligans, because there is no proof that either list is better than the other at this.

The points on the LEDless side of my list are pretty much obvious and definite, but the ‘Faster’ argument of LED is actually a bit problematic to evaluate. And that’s what I tried to do. I wanted to test the speed of both lists against each other. I figured that the only way to do this reliably was to goldfish both lists a certain number of times and writing down everything that’s relevant. That way I would be able to compare the average speed and consistency of both builds. Interaction by your opponent and post board games don’t change anything about those two main factors, so simply goldfishing should provide valid empirical results.

I did 50 test runs with each list, 25 on the Play and 25 on the Draw. The things I focused at were:
- Mulligans
- Average number of Cabal Therapies that I had access to until turn X
- The actual kill turn (attacking my opponent’s life points for at least 20 damage total, assuming no blockers)

The two lists that I tested are the LED list that I personally consider to be the best right now (German Quad list) as well as my own LEDless lists that looks like this:

4 City of Brass, 4 Gemstone Mine, 4 Cephalid Coliseum, 3 Tarnished Citadel
4 Golgari Grave-Troll, 4 Stinkweed Imp, 3 Golgari Thug
4 Careful Study, 4 Breakthrough, 3 Faithless Looting
4 Putrid Imp, 3 Tireless Tribe
4 Bridge From Below, 4 Narcomoeba, 4 Cabal Therapy, 3 Ichorid, 1 Dread Return



Here are the results:

I’ll always give the LED number plus the LEDless number directly afterwards and in (brackets): I promise you’ll be just as surprised as I was…


Mulligans:

Keep at 7: 33/50 = 66% (37/50 = 74%)
Keep at 6: 8/50 = 16% (10/50 = 20%)
Keep at 5: 5/50 = 10% (3/50 = 6%)
Keep at 4: 2/50 = 4% (0/50 = 0%)
Keep at 3: 1/50 = 2% (0/50 = 0%)
Keep at 2: 1/50 = 2% (0/50 = 0%)

Percentage hands mulliganed: 39,7% (24%)


Average number of Cabal Therapies that I had access to until turn X:

I didn’t count those that I got access to the very turn I attacked for lethal anyway and I also didn't count the games that were over already. So for instance, if I had access to 2 CT on turn 2 and killed turn three, the 2 CTs won’t be included in the Turn 3+ numbers.

Turn 1: 0,46 (0,06)
Turn 2: 1,56 (1,76)
Turn 3: 1,97 (2,56)
Turn 4: 2,36 (3,0)
Turn 5: 2,17 (4,5)


The actual Kill turn:

Turn 1 kill: Impossible for both variants
Turn 2 Kill: 0% of games in LED, impossible for LEDless
Turn 3 kill: 36% (32%)
Turn 4 kill: 36% (50%)
Turn 5 kill: 16% (14%)
Turn 6+: 12% (4%)

Average kill turn: 4,04 (3,9)



I’ve calculated it three times, because I was sure these numbers could never be correct, but there’s no error in it. You might argument that I’m not playing perfectly or took the wrong milligan decisions, but those are both things that would have to apply to my playing both lists, so even if that’s an argument, it should even out. Also, what do you do if you draw zero lands at 7,6 and 5, have Double-Narco, Bridge, GGT at 4 and Narco, Bridge, Ichorid at 3?


I can’t explain why LED was so much worse in this testing, other than that it’s simply the way the games went. I tried my best in every game and I’ve done 50 games, which is a pretty big number already. If I have time, I might test some more, but right now I’m not sure if it’s even necessary. I expected LED to be at least 0.5 turn faster and I also thought that it would have access to more Therapies faster. If these numbers are anywhere near the actual truth, I can’t see any argument to run LED at all, which is somewhat unexpected.


If I did any fundamental errors or if any of my observations aren’t representative or if I’m missing anything important, please tell me. As I said, I don't want to convince anyone of anything, this is just some testing I did for myself and I thought it might be interesting to some of you.


Cheers

joemauer
03-27-2012, 04:27 PM
@Izor: the Quad list may be the wrong one, I would try again with Hollywood's latest list.

Also, one thing you could not find out from goldfishing is disruption from the other side. LED lists are generally better at fighting through a counterwall.

jjjoness'
03-27-2012, 04:48 PM
I’ve calculated it three times, because I was sure these numbers could never be correct, but there’s no error in it. You might argument that I’m not playing perfectly or took the wrong milligan decisions, but those are both things that would have to apply to my playing both lists, so even if that’s an argument, it should even out. Also, what do you do if you draw zero lands at 7,6 and 5, have Double-Narco, Bridge, GGT at 4 and Narco, Bridge, Ichorid at 3?


Drawing zero lands on your first 7 may not be that bad, if your on the draw and have a decent hand to play DDD.
Also goldfished 50 times with each version, which does not even remotely allow you to make any statistical statement. (I'm way to annoyed with statistics and error theory right now to do the actual math)

Mojeh
03-27-2012, 06:33 PM
@Hollywood: Thanks for your feedback. But as you said, maybe it's just better to just ignore your enemy's swarm and rush them out.

@Izor: Thank you very much, you've done and excellent work with the play tests and the statistics. Actually, it's kinda expected that Quadlaser Dredge it's not THAT faster than LEDless (they don't use any targets, and reduce the land count, which can be a problem sometimes), at least this is my point of view. The real vantage (I believe) in Quadlaser, is the fact that you can get more consistently abuse your draw spells.
I believe if you could compare a combo-oriented LED build to a LEDless version, the analysis would be more solid.
The main problem from LEDless, is the trouble to fight Maverick, I wonder if Firestorm would fit better in TTribe's slots in you build. Here in Brazil, Merfolk is still a very common deck, so Firestorm would fit like a glove.
Also, 11 dredgers are usually enough? I play 13 in my LEDless, because sometimes I don't feel comfortable with 12 =O

Izor
03-27-2012, 07:32 PM
@Izor: the Quad list may be the wrong one, I would try again with Hollywood's latest list.

Also, one thing you could not find out from goldfishing is disruption from the other side. LED lists are generally better at fighting through a counterwall.

Actually, after doing those test runs I think it might be better to play a DR package in LED Dredge, so I agree there.

However, why does LED fight countermagic better? Just because they could find their counter spell with a turn 1 cantrip? Or because it can't be Dazed as easily? Those are fringe cases at most. There are lots of such corner cases where the one or the other list is better. For example, LED lists are screwed hard if their Breakthrough is countered with LED on the stack. LEDless doesn't care that much about it. I tested raw speed and consistency only and deliberately excluded all kinds of external factors. Factoring in those as well is impossible.


Drawing zero lands on your first 7 may not be that bad, if your on the draw and have a decent hand to play DDD.
Also goldfished 50 times with each version, which does not even remotely allow you to make any statistical statement. (I'm way to annoyed with statistics and error theory right now to do the actual math)

You never ever keep a 7 card hand without Lands with LED Dredge. Never. At 6 and 5 it's no different. I think going down to 2 in this example is what would have heppened to everyone.
In this case, goldfishing is (maybe the only) method to collect empirical data. Many scientific fields are solely based on empirical studies, so it is definitely a viable strategy to make statistical statements. Actual maths isn't everything when it comes to playing Magic. I can calculate the exact probabilities for each list to have a god opening hand, but what would that prove?


@Izor: Thank you very much, you've done and excellent work with the play tests and the statistics. Actually, it's kinda expected that Quadlaser Dredge it's not THAT faster than LEDless (they don't use any targets, and reduce the land count, which can be a problem sometimes), at least this is my point of view. The real vantage (I believe) in Quadlaser, is the fact that you can get more consistently abuse your draw spells.
I believe if you could compare a combo-oriented LED build to a LEDless version, the analysis would be more solid.
The main problem from LEDless, is the trouble to fight Maverick, I wonder if Firestorm would fit better in TTribe's slots in you build. Here in Brazil, Merfolk is still a very common deck, so Firestorm would fit like a glove.
Also, 11 dredgers are usually enough? I play 13 in my LEDless, because sometimes I don't feel comfortable with 12 =O

Thanks for the feedback.

I had put a lot of thought into what lists I would be testing against each other. I figured that the lists should be as similar as possible (aside from the LED package of course) in order to get a reliable comparison. I could have tested Hollywood's build, but then I think I should play a DR package in LEDless as well. If LEDless is really as fast as LED at casting Therapies and killing my opponent, then it is also just as fast at casting DR.

Firestorm is fine in the main if your metagame demands it. I know how good it is and I always keep 3-4 in my SB for certain matchups. It's just that I really really hate them pre board in combo matchups, so I like to go with the 'allrounder' card, which is imo Tireless Tribe.

I can certainly see arguments for more than 11 dredgers. In LED Dredge I'd never play less than 12. Having access to permanent discard dorks actually makes you less dependent on hitting more Dredgers after the first Dredge, which is why I'm fine with 11 in a list that runs 7-8 discard dorks. If you run Firestorm, you once again have more one-shot discard and less permanent discard outlets, which makes 12 dredgers a very good idea indeed.

Mojeh
03-27-2012, 08:03 PM
@Izor: Well, LEDless being just as fast as Quadlaser, doesn't mean DR-LEDless can be as fast as combo-LED. Your data states that LED Dredge can flip the deck faster (although does not necessary wins first), so it can find DR package earlier, and therefore, reanimate a FKZ/Flayer earlier.
I strongly believe it makes no sense playing LED, if your goal is not to be faster. LEDless seems still much more resilient.

I agree with the addition of the 12th dredger when playing Firestorm over TTribe, but what do I cut? I wouldn't cut DR without the whole playlet of Ichorid... maybe -1 Breakthrough?

Izor
03-27-2012, 08:14 PM
Hm, you might be right. I haven't played DR plus targets for a while and I don't think I will in the near future. In my testing, I surprisingly found out that LEDless finds its Cabal Therapies at least as fast as LED outside of turn 1, that's why I thought it would be similar with DR.

Do you play Faithless Looting in your LEDless? If you do, those are probably the first cards to cut. If I was to play Firestorms main, I would probably go -2 Looting, -2 Tribe, +3 Firestorm, +1 Darkblast with the list I tested with, the 4th Firestorm in the sideboard. 1 Looting and 1 Tribe seems odd, but I like to keep a balanced number of combo pieces in my lists, that's why.

Mojeh
03-27-2012, 08:24 PM
I used to play Firestorms main, but recently I chose to play Faithless Looting over them. Not certain if that's the right call, though.

I play the following.

15 lands (3 Tarnished)
13 Dredgers (1 Darkblast)
4 everything, no DR.

I liked your LEDless, I just wish I could replace Tribes for Firestorms, and fit the 12th dredger.
Maybe I'll just cut a Breakthrough for a Darkblast.

joemauer
03-27-2012, 08:42 PM
LED dredge is better at fighting through a counterwall than LEDless.

Game one, your opponent will almost never counter LED. Countering the first draw spell or pimp is fairly common. So if you plan on going all in and your breakthrough gets FoW'd you still get your dredger(s) in your graveyard and your opponent will be down two cards.
If you have LED + faithless looting your opponent will have to counter Faithless Looting twice to set you back.
If you have LED + Pimp, your opponent typically can't counter both on your first turn.
In LEDless your opponent can FoW your first spell and then Daze your second one.
Also, if you have LED + Cephalid Coliseum typically only stifle can stop you.

LED gets to play more discard outlets in one turn. Making counterwalls less effective.

Daze in general is a worst card against the card Lion's Eye Diamond.


I tried naming all the common stuff that you could run into on the play and not the draw because both decks will just DDD until the coast is cleared with Cabal Therapies. I suspect LED is better against counter magic on the draw too though.

Michael Keller
03-27-2012, 09:32 PM
LED is just insane in Dredge. I had an opponent Force my LED in round nine, game one, but dropped a second one and went balls-crazy with Breakthrough into Looting. LED creates confusion with opponents because they don't know what your intentions are with it immediately. It's very discombobulating when you play it, because they don't know if you have a draw spell with it. Either way, it blows the game wide open no matter what they have.

That's the kind of dynamic the card adds to the archetype. It's incredible.

Fr_Apo
03-28-2012, 06:19 AM
Hey guys,

[...]
The list felt really good all day.
I don't know how can you play with no DR main against deck like esperblade. Sure when they can't stop you from going off and lost dice roll you will just crush them but during testing and tournaments I won numerous game where I would have just been dead to batterskull nor jitte, my first esperblade opponent did stack 4 counters on his jitte but could'nt steal g1 where a simple aggro plan would have missed (he goes t1 thoughtseize + fow on my turn1, then wasteland t2...).
Also, DR is really mvp in MU where the opponent can remove your bridges pretty easily.

I definitely got to do more testing with your quadlaser to figure out how good it is but I felt like you are trying to maximise the chance you have to get a perfect hand via chosing to lose to any complicate situation you can face.
What does your metagame look like?
In France, most people are running stoneblade(esper or not) / maverick and rug, and being sure to be faster than a turn two ooze on the draw seems really key to me while getting answers to fast batterskull snapped into play, rug MU in g1 seems not to change drastically no matter which list you run.

I wish you good luck on top8ing the BoM, hopping you won't be the only dredge deck getting in : )

Some questions to seal this post :
- Can we get your last quadlaser brew? The sideboard particularly.
- How are you feeling in the maverick match up?
- How are you siding in against esperblade? The match up feels pretty good but I am not quite sure about my sideboard tech.

Up.

Is it the fact that i'm new (as a poster) to the thread that made you disregard it or is it THAT bad? =)
I quoted without the introduction and report to get straight to the point.

PS : In order not to get fowed on my LED, I usually count storm out loud G1 when I cast it.
Worked fine so far... Even allow you to get coliseum t1 on the draw sometimes.

HokusSchmokus
03-28-2012, 06:34 AM
What does your metagame look like?

Some questions to seal this post :
- Can we get your last quadlaser brew? The sideboard particularly.
- How are you feeling in the maverick match up?
- How are you siding in against esperblade? The match up feels pretty good but I am not quite sure about my sideboard tech.

I am guessing the majority of your post is directed to me, next time just quote me so I actually know I should answer:P

The idea behind quadlaser is that g1, no deck in the format can do relevant stuff that actually makes you lose, as long as you don't whiff.There is an awful lot of canadian and nic fit in our meta. Game 1 against nic fit is still perfectly winnable. what kind of complicated situations do you mean btw?
1.My newest list runs -1 thug +1 blast main, 4 leylines, 4 claims, 3 citadels, 2 ancient grudge, 1 memory's journey in the board.
2. Maverick is better than it used to be before. Though e-tutor boards are a pain in the ass.
I board -4 breakthrough, -1 Ichorid, -1 PImp, -1 Study for 3 lands and claims.
3. Esper stuff(I assume you mean something along the lines of Martell's list) is not really that common here, as it loses horribly against nic fit and the canadian matchup is not that great, either.
Hope I could help.

AEnesidem
03-28-2012, 07:24 AM
I am guessing the majority of your post is directed to me, next time just quote me so I actually know I should answer:P

The idea behind quadlaser is that g1, no deck in the format can do relevant stuff that actually makes you lose, as long as you don't whiff.There is an awful lot of canadian and nic fit in our meta. Game 1 against nic fit is still perfectly winnable. what kind of complicated situations do you mean btw?
1.My newest list runs -1 thug +1 blast main, 4 leylines, 4 claims, 3 citadels, 2 ancient grudge, 1 memory's journey in the board.
2. Maverick is better than it used to be before. Though e-tutor boards are a pain in the ass.
I board -4 breakthrough, -1 Ichorid, -1 PImp, -1 Study for 3 lands and claims.
3. Esper stuff(I assume you mean something along the lines of Martell's list) is not really that common here, as it loses horribly against nic fit and the canadian matchup is not that great, either.
Hope I could help.

I think he means complicated situations like: When your opponent kills his own creature with jitte/bolt, bounces batterskull to remove bridges etc...
then you are stuck with only ichorids to win you the game, and once they drop batterskull, or have enough removal for ichorids, you are left without threats.
this is a situation i'm familiar with when i have slower draws.

HokusSchmokus
03-28-2012, 07:33 AM
Normally a therapy is enough to deal with batterskull. Also it seldom happens that I remove all my bridges at once Oo

Edit: I will actually play flayer on saturday, I am very curious already as to how it will turn out.
Too bad the Düsseldorf meta seems to ve very hostile...thanks necro:p

Fr_Apo
03-28-2012, 09:26 AM
I am guessing the majority of your post is directed to me, next time just quote me so I actually know I should answer:P

Will do :).



The idea behind quadlaser is that g1, no deck in the format can do relevant stuff that actually makes you lose, as long as you don't whiff.There is an awful lot of canadian and nic fit in our meta. Game 1 against nic fit is still perfectly winnable. what kind of complicated situations do you mean btw?
1.My newest list runs -1 thug +1 blast main, 4 leylines, 4 claims, 3 citadels, 2 ancient grudge, 1 memory's journey in the board.
2. Maverick is better than it used to be before. Though e-tutor boards are a pain in the ass.
I board -4 breakthrough, -1 Ichorid, -1 PImp, -1 Study for 3 lands and claims.
3. Esper stuff(I assume you mean something along the lines of Martell's list) is not really that common here, as it loses horribly against nic fit and the canadian matchup is not that great, either.
I can't really understand why people play nic fit, but in your rug infested metagame, it seems to be legit. Here many people are playing GW aggro, keeping rug played but not ubiquitous.
1. Thanks for the list. I will give it a try.
2. Maverick is better since you stopped playing dread return? I really like to have answers to a turn 2 scavenging ooze on the play for maverick. Comboing out and returning a flayer ftw or to burn scavenging ooze is really cool. Even 6 2/2 + 3 ichorid in the yard aren't enough to run against mav that resolved a turn 2 ooze :s
3. "esper stuff" are build inspired from tom martell's list, it shows many plays here, and will be there at the BoM too. You'd better get prepared IMO. The 1 mana targeted discard associated with snapcaster + surgical can be a real pain. Did many testing g2 on the draw and it wen't poorly for me. Trying to run few thoughtseize in the board to adress it since it is quite good against storm too.

According to your post, you are putting nic fit deck to beat? Not prepared at all for this deck at the moment. I should better test this out...

Looking forward to seeing your impressions on flayer. I used to play sun titan but most definitely switched to it and didn't regret it so far.

K1w1
03-28-2012, 09:57 AM
Edit: I will actually play flayer on saturday, I am very curious already as to how it will turn out.
Too bad the Düsseldorf meta seems to ve very hostile...thanks necro:p

Yeah...Thanks Necro :D
But hey, let's dredge them away Hokus

NecroYawgmoth
03-28-2012, 11:01 AM
Too bad the Düsseldorf meta seems to ve very hostile...thanks necro:p


Yeah...Thanks Necro :D

WOOTWOOT!!!!!! I am sorry guys. :cry:

HokusSchmokus
03-28-2012, 11:10 AM
Will do :).


I can't really understand why people play nic fit, but in your rug infested metagame, it seems to be legit. Here many people are playing GW aggro, keeping rug played but not ubiquitous.
1. Thanks for the list. I will give it a try.
2. Maverick is better since you stopped playing dread return? I really like to have answers to a turn 2 scavenging ooze on the play for maverick. Comboing out and returning a flayer ftw or to burn scavenging ooze is really cool. Even 6 2/2 + 3 ichorid in the yard aren't enough to run against mav that resolved a turn 2 ooze :s
3. "esper stuff" are build inspired from tom martell's list, it shows many plays here, and will be there at the BoM too. You'd better get prepared IMO. The 1 mana targeted discard associated with snapcaster + surgical can be a real pain. Did many testing g2 on the draw and it wen't poorly for me. Trying to run few thoughtseize in the board to adress it since it is quite good against storm too.

According to your post, you are putting nic fit deck to beat? Not prepared at all for this deck at the moment. I should better test this out...

Looking forward to seeing your impressions on flayer. I used to play sun titan but most definitely switched to it and didn't regret it so far.

Against nic Fit and Esper, t0 leyline is enough. And you can race ooze just fine imo 0o
But we'll see, I don't have a list for BoM yet.

Darklingske
03-28-2012, 02:45 PM
For the moment the Belgium meta is incredibly hostile for us. A lot of Maverick with Ooze & E. Tutor, Nic Fit and decks with Jailer, Extraction & Jitte on the side. I really like Ichorid, but for the moment I'm shelving the deck. :frown:

HokusSchmokus
03-28-2012, 02:52 PM
You do realise that you learn most in a hostile meta?

Michael Keller
03-28-2012, 02:56 PM
Does anyone have links or lists they'd like me to post for Quadlazer Dredge?

igri_is_a_bk
03-28-2012, 03:38 PM
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Putrid Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy

NecroYawgmoth
03-28-2012, 03:50 PM
Does anyone have links or lists they'd like me to post for Quadlazer Dredge?


4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Bridge from Below
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
//////
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Nature's Claim
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Memory's Journey
3 Tarnished Citadel

HokusSchmokus
03-28-2012, 04:18 PM
I am not able to find the link as I am on my mobile now, but I posted a link somewhere in the old thread maybe a month ago. Belgian Eternal Weekend Mol Top4

Michael Keller
03-28-2012, 04:20 PM
Updated.

Que
03-28-2012, 04:38 PM
Another Dredge Variant that can also be included as part of the Primer includes Bloodghast.

The list:

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=2480&d=216112

NecroYawgmoth
03-28-2012, 04:43 PM
Another Dredge Variant that can also be included as part of the Primer includes Bloodghast.

The list:

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=2480&d=216112

I have to agree with HokusSchmokus that Bloodghast-Dredge is the ideal place for Flayer of the Hatebound. Kick Primus for Flayer and we have a good starting point for building such a deck.


Oh, and btw, regarding that Bloodghast variant and Dredge variants in general:

Should this one thread discuss LED, LED-less AND special variants all at once? Wouldn't it be better if we seperate the Dredge thread in LED & LEDless? :eyebrow:

MadManMax
03-28-2012, 05:54 PM
I'm pretty confused and can't decide what should I bring to local tourney this Saturday: currently I'm playing LEDless version(new to Dredge and still unable to get the playset of LEDs).
Do you think that Faithless Looting is worth md space in LEDless version or should I got for Tireless Tribe in that place?
The list is: 14 lands, 3 ichs, 4 cabal therapies, 4 breakthroughs, 4 imps, 12 dredgers, 4 studies, bridges, narcos, 2 dr's, one spot for dr target(Flamekin,Iona, Titan- haven't decided yet, may go for Sphinx as well).

Thx in advance

Michael Keller
03-28-2012, 05:55 PM
1st Off. Congrats on the performance.

I think your list looks fine as far as opting to actually play DR and its targets. Sun Titan seems really good on paper with regards to recurring things like LED into a looting. I haven't tested it yet myself.

Would you mind going over what the boarding looked like for each of these matchups? I'm intersted in what you boarded in/out. I think a lot of dredge players have varying opinions as to what gets brought in and against what. Being able to compare would be a great benefit. If you dont' remember then don't worry about it.

Do you also have general boarding strategies? I'm just trying to find out what cards are getting the shaft in Games 2 & 3. To me the maindeck is so packed in that I have difficulty deciding what to cut during those games.

Thanks

Remember, game two's can be a little confusing because you don't really know what kind of hate your opponent is on, so sometimes it's best not to shut yourself down for a few tacky anti-hate cards. Generally speaking, the siding strategies went like this in most of my games (all game three's we'll go back to using the main list; it's easier that way - so assume game three you're starting fresh):

Game Two Against EsperBlade

-4 Lion's Eye Diamond
-1 Narcomoeba

+2 Ancient Grudge
+2 Coffin Purge
+1 Cabal Therapy

Game Three

-1 Darkblast
-1 Careful Study

+1 Ancient Grudge
+1 Breakthrough

Here's I generally go all-in against my opponents. There is no need to water what can be a complete blowout when you have all the pieces to already do so. I only bring out one Study so I can get some something with Ancient Grudge. Otherwise, it's a "hit a home run" game. Don't water the plan down too much; this is where the deck's strength lies - it's running LED for a reason, stick with it.

Also, while it might seem that removing a Narcomoeba might be a mistake, it's actually a card you don't want to open hand in those games and you really don't want your opponent to get maximum value out of Extraction. You're testing their hate here, and I did that and it worked relatively well in those games. Narcomoeba actually becomes more of a liability in those games because open-handing it...sucks.

Game Two Against Maverick

-1 Breakthrough
+1 Ray of Revelation

I only bring this in to help with Wheel. Other than that, I could care less about Crypt and I just went balls to the walls. Now, I could have and probably should have brought in Firestorm, but again I am finding it to be somewhat kind of blah against Maverick. Wasteland can already hurt you bad sometimes, and with Thalia, Firestorm really isn't all that great in this matchup. You're better off sealing the win and blowing out their hand turn one or two with Therapies.

Again, it depends.


Game Three

Again, it depends. If you lose game two, just keep it all in like the Esper matchup. Maverick runs no Extractions typically so you can always name Crypt, Tutor (on the play) or Wheel, and that's generally enough.

Game Two Against Pox

Assuming Leyline is coming in against you:

-4 Lion's Eye Diamond
-1 Darkblast
-1 Breakthrough

+3 Nature's Claim
+2 Coffin Purge
+1 Ray of Revelation

Game Three

Basically the same. This is again on the basis your opponent is running Leyline. That makes LED a huge liability, and Breakthrough can be really bad when you're digging for answers.

Game Two Against Elves

-1 Careful Study
-1 Faithless Looting
-1 Breakthrough
+3 Firestorm

Here, I keep the LED's in because they can still enable Coliseum and Looting if need be, but Firestorm also helps act as a discard outlet/blowout spell. LED's don't have to be immediately used unless an opponent has a slow start, but it's a card you really want to be able to race the Elves player.

Game Three

Basically the same. You need to "out-combo" the Elves player fast enough to where you can just win on the spot. They might have something techy against you, but it's a risk in this match-up you have to be willing to take.

Hope this helps some. Sideboarding for Dredge is not easy, and this is what worked out for me. Take from that what you will.

Mindlash
03-28-2012, 06:25 PM
I have to agree with HokusSchmokus that Bloodghast-Dredge is the ideal place for Flayer of the Hatebound. Kick Primus for Flayer and we have a good starting point for building such a deck.


Oh, and btw, regarding that Bloodghast variant and Dredge variants in general:

Should this one thread discuss LED, LED-less AND special variants all at once? Wouldn't it be better if we seperate the Dredge thread in LED & LEDless? :eyebrow:

I am testing a similar "Combo" against Friends and in MWS. Startet playing Dredge with Konkurs and Manaless Dredge, my Idea was to merge the latest GP Dredge Brew with the old Manaless Dredge out of the following reasons:

- in my meta, there are nearly no Leylines/Cages
- Surgical/Extirpate is the most played hate
- Game 1 is winnable with nearly every Dredgelists most of the time

The most probs I had in the times of Manaless Dredge were Prisons (like Enchantress) despite of the permanent hate cards like LotV (which I never run into the last few weeks).

Now Flayer brings a fast finish to the table (like FKZ) and is able to go through those "Prisons". It's a lot slower than LED Dredge with DR Targets but more resilient to the most played hate cards (Surgical).

The question is: Is it worth beeing more resilient by sacrificing the speed in the current meta?

Here is my actual Manaless List (Sideboard still in Dev.):

Deck: Manaless Devil Dredge (http://deckstats.net/deck-1136767-e35b816ac72c8590d74805ea83cd13b0-de.html) http://www.deckstats.net/mana/m/w.gif http://www.deckstats.net/mana/m/u.gif http://www.deckstats.net/mana/m/b.gif http://www.deckstats.net/mana/m/r.gif http://www.deckstats.net/mana/m/g.gif

//Dredger
4 Golgari Grave-Troll (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Golgari+Grave-Troll)
4 Stinkweed Imp (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Stinkweed+Imp)
4 Golgari Thug (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Golgari+Thug)
3 Dakmor Salvage (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Dakmor+Salvage)

//Dread Return Targets
1 Flayer of the Hatebound (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Flayer+of+the+Hatebound)
1 Angel of Despair (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Angel+of+Despair)
3 Sphinx of Lost Truths (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Sphinx+of+Lost+Truths)

//Draw & Discard
4 Phantasmagorian (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Phantasmagorian)
4 Gitaxian Probe (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Gitaxian+Probe)
4 Street Wraith (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Street+Wraith)

//Beatsticks
4 Ichorid (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Ichorid)
4 Nether Shadow (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Nether+Shadow)
4 Narcomoeba (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Narcomoeba)
4 Bloodghast (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Bloodghast)

//Spells
4 Bridge from Below (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Bridge+from+Below)
4 Cabal Therapy (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Cabal+Therapy)
4 Dread Return (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Dread+Return)

http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Deckstatistik anzeigen (http://deckstats.net/deck-1136767-e35b816ac72c8590d74805ea83cd13b0-de.html)

As of the other Dredge Variations: I think that both, the Devil Dredge from Ando and the German Quodlazer List are pretty good at what they want to do! :cool:

NecroYawgmoth
03-28-2012, 06:39 PM
Here is my actual Manaless List (Sideboard still in Dev.):

Deck: Manaless Devil Dredge (http://deckstats.net/deck-1136767-e35b816ac72c8590d74805ea83cd13b0-de.html) http://www.deckstats.net/mana/m/w.gif http://www.deckstats.net/mana/m/u.gif http://www.deckstats.net/mana/m/b.gif http://www.deckstats.net/mana/m/r.gif http://www.deckstats.net/mana/m/g.gif

//Dredger
4 Golgari Grave-Troll (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Golgari+Grave-Troll)
4 Stinkweed Imp (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Stinkweed+Imp)
4 Golgari Thug (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Golgari+Thug)
3 Dakmor Salvage (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Dakmor+Salvage)

//Dread Return Targets
1 Flayer of the Hatebound (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Flayer+of+the+Hatebound)
1 Angel of Despair (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Angel+of+Despair)
3 Sphinx of Lost Truths (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Sphinx+of+Lost+Truths)

//Draw & Discard
4 Phantasmagorian (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Phantasmagorian)
4 Gitaxian Probe (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Gitaxian+Probe)
4 Street Wraith (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Street+Wraith)

//Beatsticks
4 Ichorid (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Ichorid)
4 Nether Shadow (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Nether+Shadow)
4 Narcomoeba (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Narcomoeba)
4 Bloodghast (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Bloodghast)

//Spells
4 Bridge from Below (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Bridge+from+Below)
4 Cabal Therapy (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Cabal+Therapy)
4 Dread Return (http://www.mtg-forum.de/db/magiccard.php?lng=de&card=Dread+Return)

http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Deckstatistik anzeigen (http://deckstats.net/deck-1136767-e35b816ac72c8590d74805ea83cd13b0-de.html)



This is Timo's old Manaless-list -1 Elesh Norn, -1 Woodfall Primus, +1 Angel +1 Flayer. Quite innovative. :tongue:


I think it's a very bad idea to lose spped for constance nowadays. Combo wrecks you, Ooze wrecks you, Enlightened Tutor for Wheel wrecks you [at least in Manaless]. It's by no way a good idea to be slow and constant these days. Hell, even UR Delver can pull out 18 damage on turn 3 without doing unfair things, these days.

Nevertheless... I think Wizards killed Manaless with the printing of Grafdigger's Cage, which is so sad, because it was my favorite deck. :cry: I wouldn't run it because you basically lose against anyone who brings it in against you. It's still meta-dependant, but it's impossible in my meta. =(

Anusien
03-28-2012, 07:13 PM
I'm pretty confused and can't decide what should I bring to local tourney this Saturday: currently I'm playing LEDless version(new to Dredge and still unable to get the playset of LEDs).
Do you think that Faithless Looting is worth md space in LEDless version or should I got for Tireless Tribe in that place?
The list is: 14 lands, 3 ichs, 4 cabal therapies, 4 breakthroughs, 4 imps, 12 dredgers, 4 studies, bridges, narcos, 2 dr's, one spot for dr target(Flamekin,Iona, Titan- haven't decided yet, may go for Sphinx as well).

Thx in advance
Faithless Looting is not worth it.

As best as I can tell, you run LED Dredge if the hate you're concerned about is Scavenging Ooze and Surgical Extraction: you simply need to overwhelm these cards. They are constrained by mana and time so you just want to win ASAP.

You run LEDless Dredge is you have to fight Crypts and Relics. These cards you want to fight slowly by being careful.

I would not run Faithless Looting in LEDless Dredge because I would rather have Tireless Tribe because it is so incredibly valuable at fighting Crypt.

Your suggested list looks fine except -1 DR target +1 land.

The real question: which is better at fighting Leyline, Cage and Wheel? My instinct is that LEDless is better at fighting these cards because it has more mana and therefore more likely to have a playable hand that can also beat these cards. I am not 100% on that. LEDless is certainly better at being able to Therapy away Leyline if they don't have it in their opening hand, but most of the time Wheel is going to be set up with a topdeck tutor, and I'm not sure about Cage.

Mindlash
03-28-2012, 07:41 PM
This is Timo's old Manaless-list -1 Elesh Norn, -1 Woodfall Primus, +1 Angel +1 Flayer. Quite innovative. :tongue:


I think it's a very bad idea to lose spped for constance nowadays. Combo wrecks you, Ooze wrecks you, Enlightened Tutor for Wheel wrecks you [at least in Manaless]. It's by no way a good idea to be slow and constant these days. Hell, even UR Delver can pull out 18 damage on turn 3 without doing unfair things, these days.

Nevertheless... I think Wizards killed Manaless with the printing of Grafdigger's Cage, which is so sad, because it was my favorite deck. :cry: I wouldn't run it because you basically lose against anyone who brings it in against you. It's still meta-dependant, but it's impossible in my meta. =(

I've had some nice skirmishes with Ooze due to Phantasmo and Sw :-) So its possible. But I dunno know how reliable it actually is :-(

Cage was equally a reason to undust my LEDs as Looting was at first...but then....I've never seen the Grafdigger ^^

I don't know who this Timo is. I build my List with Youmelia Gay's Manaless (GP Amsterdam) and Ando's Devil List (GP Indy) in mind.

Whats your Meta for it to be impossible?

My Problem is: I like Manaless a lot (like you it seems), even if I play LED Dredge at bigger Events :-/ I've tried to think about a solution....and less perma-hate + Flayer may be a chance...I just won't give up on this Incarnation of Dredge ;)

But you maybe right...maybe its not the time for Manaless now.

Anyways...I am pretty interested in a Dredge Version with Bloodghasts.
In Vintage it's an easy thing to happen due to Bazaar in combination with Serum and Titan.

There has to be a way in Legacy too. :-)

Felidae
03-28-2012, 08:09 PM
Faithless Looting is not worth it.

As best as I can tell, you run LED Dredge if the hate you're concerned about is Scavenging Ooze and Surgical Extraction: you simply need to overwhelm these cards. They are constrained by mana and time so you just want to win ASAP.

You run LEDless Dredge is you have to fight Crypts and Relics. These cards you want to fight slowly by being careful.

I would not run Faithless Looting in LEDless Dredge because I would rather have Tireless Tribe because it is so incredibly valuable at fighting Crypt.


I'd disagree with you here, as MadManMax has cleary stated that he has no acces to a playset of LED's, so the question is not which version is better at fighting what kind of hate, but rather which card is better in the last remaining slots of his LEDless deck ( i.e. Tribe or Looting).

In the current meta I'd allways play Looting over Tribe because Relic or Crypt don't see much play anymore thus a permanent discardoutled loses much of its value, compared to a one shot discard outled / drawspell.


Placed 2nd in my local tourney today with LED Dredge:
R1: TES (2-0)
R2: Combo ELves ( 2-1)
R3: Punishing Maverick ( 2-0)
R4: Canadian Thresh ( I.D. / 1-2 due to one of the best Brainstorms I've ever witnessed)

joemauer
03-28-2012, 11:50 PM
The real question: which is better at fighting Leyline, Cage and Wheel? My instinct is that LEDless is better at fighting these cards because it has more mana and therefore more likely to have a playable hand that can also beat these cards. I am not 100% on that. LEDless is certainly better at being able to Therapy away Leyline if they don't have it in their opening hand, but most of the time Wheel is going to be set up with a topdeck tutor, and I'm not sure about Cage.

How is LEDless better at cabal therapy?

Also, LED dredge can win before a player gets a wheel of sun and moon down.

jares
03-29-2012, 12:02 AM
How is LEDless better at cabal therapy?

Also, LED dredge can win before a player gets a wheel of sun and moon down.
I think that LEDless could possibly be better at hard-casting Cabal Therapy because of the presence of more Gold Lands, but I got confused by the part saying "if they done have it in their opening hand". I think that what was meant by this is "if they don't have Leyline of the Void in their opening hand".

Cheers,
jares

jares
03-29-2012, 01:27 AM
Faithless Looting is not worth it.

As best as I can tell, you run LED Dredge if the hate you're concerned about is Scavenging Ooze and Surgical Extraction: you simply need to overwhelm these cards. They are constrained by mana and time so you just want to win ASAP.

You run LEDless Dredge is you have to fight Crypts and Relics. These cards you want to fight slowly by being careful.

I would not run Faithless Looting in LEDless Dredge because I would rather have Tireless Tribe because it is so incredibly valuable at fighting Crypt.

In my experience, I've found that I have been able to successfully play around Crypts and Relics without using Tireless Tribe. I would say that it was a bit more difficult without it, but it was certainly doable. Having said that, I personally don't find it necessary to use Tireless Tribes to combat Crypts and/or Relics, so I find that the choice between Faithless Looting and Tireless Tribe isn't a question of whether or not you want to combat these cards, but rather, a question of which card gives more value to what you're trying to achieve in the deck.

With the primary necessities of the deck being Draw, Discard, and Dredge, I feel that having access to a card that is able to provide two of these three necessities is much more valuable than having a reliable and recurring discard outlet (addressing one of the three necessities) via a 1/1 creature that can have varied uses while in play (DR and Cabal Therapy fodder, blocker, attacker, etc).

You may refer to the following link for reference:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13767-DTB-Dredge&p=620282&viewfull=1#post620282

Kindly note that the following cards are in the list of hate cards that are referenced in the link above:

Tormod's Crypt
Relic of Progenitus
Nihil Spellbomb

I hope that helps.

Cheers,
jares

TraxDaMax
03-29-2012, 01:54 AM
The list felt really good all day.
I don't know how can you play with no DR main against deck like esperblade. Sure when they can't stop you from going off and lost dice roll you will just crush them but during testing and tournaments I won numerous game where I would have just been dead to batterskull nor jitte, my first esperblade opponent did stack 4 counters on his jitte but could'nt steal g1 where a simple aggro plan would have missed (he goes t1 thoughtseize + fow on my turn1, then wasteland t2...).
Also, DR is really mvp in MU where the opponent can remove your bridges pretty easily.

I definitely got to do more testing with your quadlaser to figure out good it is but I felt like you are trying to maximise the chance you have to get a perfect hand via chosing to lose to any complicate situation you can face.
What does your metagame look like?
In France, most people are running stoneblade(esper or not) / maverick and rug, and being sure to be faster than a turn two ooze on the draw seems really key to me while getting answers to fast batterskull snapped into play, rug MU in g1 seems not to change drastically no matter which list you run.

I wish you good luck on top8ing the BoM, hopping you won't be the only dredge deck getting in : )

Some questions to seal this post :
- Can we get your last quadlaser brew? The sideboard particularly.
- How are you feeling in the maverick match up?
- How are you siding in against esperblade? The match up feels pretty good but I am not quite sure about my sideboard tech.


This is my exact same experience with the deck. Some games I would NEVER have won if I didn't play Dread Return.
This game vs Enchantress for instance. I get a sloppy start after mull to 5, but am still able to Terastadon their (Enchanted)lands and Moat.
I will agree though that often it is winmore, but there really are a ton of situations you are happy you can dig up an answer to whatever your opponent is trying to take the game with.
I know you should be faster to begin with, but "should be" is nothing to lean on.

jares
03-29-2012, 02:08 AM
Should this one thread discuss LED, LED-less AND special variants all at once? Wouldn't it be better if we seperate the Dredge thread in LED & LEDless? :eyebrow:
I believe that these variants of Dredge are all essentially the same deck, but vary in the "packages" that are being used. Kindly refer to the following link for a short discussion on "packages":

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13767-Deck-Dredge&p=626916&viewfull=1#post626916

As a side note, Manaless Dredge is a variant that is distinctly different because it does not run one of the basic necessities (Land, Draw, Discard, Dredge) of the other dredge variants. I believe, though, that it's still under the "Dredge Family", but requires a separate thread for discussion because of the distinct difference in how it is played.

Cheers,
jares

p.s. Would it be beneficial for us to have a section for "Packages" in the primer? This might save us some time in going through this again in the future.

Michael Keller
03-29-2012, 02:24 AM
Manaless just isn't very good right now. It's just too taxing to pass the turn DDD'ing, forcing you game two to basically start the game off Time Walking your opponent and giving them a free mulligan basically if they choose so.

The deck can't fight hate and is cold to fast Combo. It's just not good right now.

jares
03-29-2012, 03:52 AM
Manaless just isn't very good right now. It's just too taxing to pass the turn DDD'ing, forcing you game two to basically start the game off Time Walking your opponent and giving them a free mulligan basically if they choose so.

The deck can't fight hate and is cold to fast Combo. It's just not good right now.
I think that the only meta where Manaless Dredge will be able to compete in is a control-heavy meta. Otherwise, its drawbacks become too exposed. I'm happy that Mental Misstep got printed, though, because this variant wouldn't otherwise have been discovered.

Cheers,
jares

NewDredgePlayer
03-29-2012, 04:29 AM
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Bridge from Below
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
//////
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Nature's Claim
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Memory's Journey
3 Tarnished Citadel


Sweet looking list. I'm going to have to goldfish some hands!

NecroYawgmoth
03-29-2012, 05:25 AM
I don't know who this Timo is. I build my List with Youmelia Gay's Manaless (GP Amsterdam) and Ando's Devil List (GP Indy) in mind.

Whats your Meta for it to be impossible?


Timo is the german refernce for dredge. If you want to know anything about the deck, ask him. =P

My Meta is much gravehate. :tongue: Additionally I hate it to be cold against combo.



Faithless Looting is not worth it.

How can you say this? Like... seriously... Careful Study was THE swiss army-knife in Dredge. I was a nay-sayer for a long time, but CS is what the deck wants. It's carddraw & discardoutlet in one card. If you use it as a discardoutlet it also helps you to find more draw. Study also helps you to recover after a Crypt. Now we have 8!!! Studies and you say it isn't worth it? Sry man, but I highly disagree with you here.



This is my exact same experience with the deck. Some games I would NEVER have won if I didn't play Dread Return.

The real question here is: How many games do you win because you play DR? The amount of games you win with DR & targets, discounting these where you would win anyways without it, has to be higher than the amount of games you would win for having the extra card in your hand.



Sweet looking list. I'm going to have to goldfish some hands!

It's the latest Quadlazerlist & Board afaik.

jares
03-29-2012, 05:45 AM
Careful Study was THE swiss army-knife in Dredge. I was a nay-sayer for a long time, but CS is what the deck wants. It's carddraw & discardoutlet in one card. If you use it as a discardoutlet it also helps you to find more draw.
I keep on forgetting to mention this whenever applicable, but I do like that playing Careful Study/Faithless Looting on Turn-1, with the intention to use it as a discard outlet, essentially puts you in a situation where you had a 9-card opening hand!

I get confused whenever people say that playing Careful Study/Faithless Looting on Turn-1 is not a good play, when in my experience, it has always been very rewarding: draw two extra cards, discard 2 cards that I want in the graveyard, all for one mana. In comparison, while Tireless Tribe is able to provide unlimited discard capability on Turn-1, having a 1/1 Creature seems less desirable when compared to having 2 extra cards that can potentially be extra enablers.

Cheers,
jares

NecroYawgmoth
03-29-2012, 06:15 AM
having 2 extra cards that can potentially be extra enablers.


this!

HokusSchmokus
03-29-2012, 06:30 AM
This is my exact same experience with the deck. Some games I would NEVER have won if I didn't play Dread Return.
This game vs Enchantress for instance. I get a sloppy start after mull to 5, but am still able to Terastadon their (Enchanted)lands and Moat.
I will agree though that often it is winmore, but there really are a ton of situations you are happy you can dig up an answer to whatever your opponent is trying to take the game with.
I know you should be faster to begin with, but "should be" is nothing to lean on.

You also have to ask yourself how many games you lose because of DR. It is a very underwhelming feeling to lose because that DR you dredged wasn't an Ichorid.

jares
03-29-2012, 07:02 AM
You also have to ask yourself how many games you lose because of DR. It is a very underwhelming feeling to lose because that DR you dredged wasn't an Ichorid.
... or if the DR that you drew in your opening hand was an enabler instead. :tongue:

Generally speaking, are there more games that can only be won using Dread Return when compared to the games that can be won without it? I expect the answer to this to be 'No'. I believe that, because of this, Dread Return does not fit the qualification of being a "core" card. This is not to say that it's not a good card, because it has proven time and again that it truly is very powerful.

Cheers,
jares

joemauer
03-29-2012, 11:00 AM
I still like dread return. It is a minimal investment of cards for a powerful payoff. It also adds diversity to the deck.

Michael Keller
03-29-2012, 11:07 AM
Dread Return is staying in my build. Im also looking at Flayer over Sun Titan at this point, too.

Blitzbold
03-29-2012, 11:16 AM
Dread Return is staying in my build. Im also looking at Flayer over Sun Titan at this point, too.

This.

Although it seems that we have to run a 4-card package of 3 DR + Flayer for a higher probability of dredging the two of them needed into the yard.

Ando said so as well in his report (http://www.gatheringmagic.com/andoferguson-031612-dawn-of-the-deaf-a-top-8-report/):


Originally by Ando Ferguson
To make maximal use of the Flayer of the Hatebound, you must have two Dread Returns in the graveyard. Running only two Dread Returns decreases your chances of finding the second in a timely manner.

I goldfished a variation of his list (4 Careful Study, 2 DR) quite a bit during the last week and it occured more often than not that I only found one of the DRs after going through about half the deck and therefore switched back to 3 DR.

jares
03-29-2012, 02:05 PM
Dread Return is staying in my build. Im also looking at Flayer over Sun Titan at this point, too.
Didn't Sun Titan perform well during the last time that you used him?

Regarding the number of Dread Returns in the deck, I think that a good balance for it is to use [X+1] Dread Returns in the deck, where X is the number of times that you expect to cast it.

Cheers,
jares

Michael Keller
03-29-2012, 03:35 PM
Even though Sun Titan was incredibly good, I think having that definitive source of damage without passing the turn is also very good, too. Sun Titan is very good in LED Dredge, but I think passing the turn even though you have a virtual win locked up can be quite unnerving at times.

Final Fortune
03-29-2012, 06:09 PM
I keep on forgetting to mention this whenever applicable, but I do like that playing Careful Study/Faithless Looting on Turn-1, with the intention to use it as a discard outlet, essentially puts you in a situation where you had a 9-card opening hand!

I get confused whenever people say that playing Careful Study/Faithless Looting on Turn-1 is not a good play, when in my experience, it has always been very rewarding: draw two extra cards, discard 2 cards that I want in the graveyard, all for one mana. In comparison, while Tireless Tribe is able to provide unlimited discard capability on Turn-1, having a 1/1 Creature seems less desirable when compared to having 2 extra cards that can potentially be extra enablers.

Cheers,
jares

It's not that the play is inherently bad, it's that the play is often sub-optimal compared to T1 DDD, T2 Careful Study where you can use it to go off instead of set up. If they put you on the play G2, then obviously it's a good play.

In all fairness my Dredge "style" is heavily influenced by Phantasmagorian, but durring my time playing Phantasmagorian based lists that was the lesson I learned.

jares
03-29-2012, 06:33 PM
It's not that the play is inherently bad, it's that the play is often sub-optimal compared to T1 DDD, T2 Careful Study where you can use it to go off instead of set up. If they put you on the play G2, then obviously it's a good play.

In all fairness my Dredge "style" is heavily influenced by Phantasmagorian, but durring my time playing Phantasmagorian based lists that was the lesson I learned.
Agreed. Having Free Discard is always a good thing, especially against blue-based decks.

Actually, my comment was thought-of in the context of "Tireless Tribe VS Faithless Looting" (any comments on this?), but it sounds like it's also applicable to the comparison you noted.

Cheers,
jares

jares
03-29-2012, 06:40 PM
Even though Sun Titan was incredibly good, I think having that definitive source of damage without passing the turn is also very good, too. Sun Titan is very good in LED Dredge, but I think passing the turn even though you have a virtual win locked up can be quite unnerving at times.
I personally am not too worried about passing the turn after I've played Cabal Therapy several times while creating an army, but it's always a good thing to add more certainty to each scenario. I'm thinking about whether or not there's still an argument between Flayer of the Hatebound VS Flame-Kin Zealot, and it seems to me that the only advantage Flame-Kin Zealot might have is that it does not demand extra Dread Returns as much. Otherwise, FotH seems to be the new FKZ. :tongue:

Cheers,
jares

Anusien
03-30-2012, 01:17 AM
How is LEDless better at cabal therapy?

Also, LED dredge can win before a player gets a wheel of sun and moon down.
Typo. LED is of course better at Therapying away hate cards like Leyline and Wheel of Sun and Moon, but worse at fighting once they come down.

LED is a little bit faster and more explosive, so it has better access to early Therapy (we will ignore the extra creatures LEDless can hardcast). LEDless is Therapying by turn 3 almost guaranteed and turn if lucky; the numbers for LED seem about a half turn faster. However the extra 2+ lands in LEDless plus the wider range of keepable hands and the extra creatures to cast make me more confidant with LEDless's ability to evoke Ingot Chewer to kill a cage and keep going.

Michael Keller
03-30-2012, 01:25 AM
Typo. LED is of course better at Therapying away hate cards like Leyline and Wheel of Sun and Moon, but worse at fighting once they come down.

LED Dredge plays just as many anti-hate spells in its sideboard than any other non-LED variant, so I'm not sure what difference it makes. Anyone leaving in LED against a deck running Leyline should not be doing that to begin with, and if you're running against Wheel, you should have Ray of Revelation at the ready early on (acceptable to have LED versus Maverick) so you can just flash it back if it goes to your graveyard for whatever reason - be it from a Study effect, LED discard, etc. This puts the Wheel player on notice early and changes the dynamic of the game.

Non-LED Dredge often eschews Faithless Looting, which is actually worth mentioning because the draw-discard spells that are more prevalent in LED Dredge can find you anti-hate in the event you need them. The sideboards between both archetypes are close enough with the anti-hate package that they're both basically interchangeable in that respect.

I just think people give LED Dredge a bad wrap when it comes to consistency issues, and I think that's a fallacy to a certain degree. I am not insinuating it doesn't have issues, but they certainly aren't as big as people make them out to be.

Final Fortune
03-30-2012, 01:56 AM
Agreed. Having Free Discard is always a good thing, especially against blue-based decks.

Actually, my comment was thought-of in the context of "Tireless Tribe VS Faithless Looting" (any comments on this?), but it sounds like it's also applicable to the comparison you noted.

Cheers,
jares

Faithless Looting > Tireless Tribe, Dredge wants a card that accelerates its fundamental turn and not a card that is redundant to its discard phase, if Putrid Imp wasn't black I wouldn't even play it. It's not that Tirleless Tribe and Putrid Imp are effectively bad cards, it's just that their utility today is nowhere near what their utility was 2 years ago vs diversified SBs.

@People

I disagree LED Dredge is less consistent than LEDless Dredge, LED is essentially a manasource for both Faithless Looting and Cephalid Coliseum with Putrid Imp rarely needing to be cast game 1 (you should always choose to draw game 1 IMO) and Cabal Therapy usually relying on its alternate casting cost. As long as you're willing to sacrifice 2 to 3 SB slots for lands, you'll be playing the exact same deck post-board.

@Cabal Therapy

I actually do think LEDless Dredge may be able to resolve more Cabal Therapies than LED Dredge and faster, you have 8 discard dorks to either double Cabal Therapy the opponent on turn 2 or Cabal Therapy the opponent on turn 1 by discarding Cabal Therapy and sacrificing the discard dork compared to 4.

Anusien
03-30-2012, 03:18 AM
LED Dredge plays just as many anti-hate spells in its sideboard than any other non-LED variant, so I'm not sure what difference it makes. Anyone leaving in LED against a deck running Leyline should not be doing that to begin with, and if you're running against Wheel, you should have Ray of Revelation at the ready early on (acceptable to have LED versus Maverick) so you can just flash it back if it goes to your graveyard for whatever reason - be it from a Study effect, LED discard, etc. This puts the Wheel player on notice early and changes the dynamic of the game.
The fact that LED usually positions itself to take out LED and bring in lands (i.e., transforming into LEDless) should indicate why LEDless is superior at fighting Wheel.

Specifically, the range of keepable hands is superior with Tireless Tribe than Faithless Looting (you can't keep Faithless Looting as your only discard outlet in the same way that you can with Tireless Tribe). Even post-board, LEDless rarely has the full 15 lands (shortening again the range of keepable hands).

I do wonder whether Winds of Change or Faithless Looting is better post-board in LEDless as a draw spell against combo.

Blitzbold
03-30-2012, 03:43 AM
LED Dredge plays just as many anti-hate spells in its sideboard than any other non-LED variant, so I'm not sure what difference it makes. Anyone leaving in LED against a deck running Leyline should not be doing that to begin with, and if you're running against Wheel, you should have Ray of Revelation at the ready early on (acceptable to have LED versus Maverick) so you can just flash it back if it goes to your graveyard for whatever reason - be it from a Study effect, LED discard, etc. This puts the Wheel player on notice early and changes the dynamic of the game.


So how are sideboards looking at the moment? I myself am a bit torn between Hollywood's and Ando's choices (and reasoning). After re-reading Feldman's great Dark Art (www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21777_The_Dark_Art_Of_Dredge_Fu.html) article again I am quite unsure what to bring in an unknown meta (read: bigger tournament out of your city).


For reference, this is my current list, which is quite close to Ando's list from Indy:

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
2 Ichorid
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

4 Bridge from Below
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
3 Dread Return
3 Cabal Therapy


It's the board where it getting interesting (see above):

SB 3 Firestorm
SB 1 Ancient Grudge
SB 2 Nature's Claim
SB 1 Chain of Vapor
SB 2 Coffin Purge
SB 1 Cabal Therapy
SB 1 Faerie Macabre
SB 2 Ichorid
SB 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB 1 Angel of Despair


My concerns about the list:
- 2 or 3 Ichorids main? While 2 might be typically enough, I'd love to board to the full 4 in certain matchups. As SB space is scarce, maybe the 3rd could find it's way back in?
- Even more important: I'd love to fit the 4. Therapy into my maindeck.

Again: How is you board looking and what's your reasoning for doing so? I saw that Hollywood ran anti-hate despite Feldman's findings, and I am with him that some form of anti-hate might be needed. On the other hand anti-hate might indeed mean drawing / dredging blanks.

jares
03-30-2012, 05:13 AM
I disagree LED Dredge is less consistent than LEDless Dredge, LED is essentially a manasource for both Faithless Looting and Cephalid Coliseum with Putrid Imp rarely needing to be cast game 1 (you should always choose to draw game 1 IMO) and Cabal Therapy usually relying on its alternate casting cost. As long as you're willing to sacrifice 2 to 3 SB slots for lands, you'll be playing the exact same deck post-board.

I believe that the main source of the said "consistency issues" with LED is exactly what you have implied - LED usually takes the land slots. Because lands are still the main dependencies of the enablers that we play, it's just natural that having less of these would cause some issues. Of course, the sideboard will always be there to provide lands post-board, but unfortunately, this also means that we still need to "sacrifice" slots for these lands, which, by definition, will cause some degree of loss.

Having said that, I believe that Hollywood is correct in noting that this loss of "consistency" should not be blown out of proportion. The issues that LED had before Faithless Looting was printed are still very much there, except that the gravity of these issues have been greatly lessened because of what Faithless Looting, not LED, is able to provide as a draw/discard medium that you can hard-cast (which is its main difference from Deep Analysis). For reference, these are the figures that we're dealing with when we refer to the LED-Land trade-off:

Quadlazer Build ([8x] Gold Lands, [4x] Cephalid Coliseum; [12x] Lands Total)

Probability to get a land in the opening hand: 80.94%
Probability to get a Gold Land in the opening hand: 65.36%

Full set of each of the usual "Dredge Lands" ([12x] Gold Lands, [4x] Cephalid Coliseum; [16x] Lands Total)

Probability to get a land in the opening hand: 90.08%
Probability to get a Gold Land in the opening hand: 80.94%


At the end of the day, these numbers are there for us to consider, and it will be up to us to evaluate the probabilities that are acceptable to what we're trying to achieve in building a deck. It's worth noting, though, that the LED-Land trade-off isn't the only consideration that we have when considering the inclusion of LED, as LED has many more interactions with the deck in being a discard outlet while also being a draw/discard medium.

I hope that this helps put things into perspective.

Cheers,
jares

jares
03-30-2012, 05:43 AM
Specifically, the range of keepable hands is superior with Tireless Tribe than Faithless Looting (you can't keep Faithless Looting as your only discard outlet in the same way that you can with Tireless Tribe).

I find this to be false, as you can certainly keep Faithless Looting as your only discard outlet in your opening hand, not to mention that it also allows you to draw 2 extra cards that are likely to be additional enablers. In fact, the opposite is true because Faithless Looting is able to cover two of the four types of cards (Land, Discarder, Draw, Dredger) that you want to see in your opening hand: the range of "keepable" hands is superior with Faithless Looting than Tireless Tribe.

Even post-board, LEDless rarely has the full 15 lands (shortening again the range of keepable hands).

I guess that you might be right in noting that a build running more than 14 lands is rare. I'm personally running 16 lands, but that might just be me. :tongue:

Kindly refer to my previous comment (above) regarding the "keepability" of hands in the context of getting lands in the opening hand.

Cheers,
jares

Dravus Mallinard
03-30-2012, 11:17 AM
I had a funny ilustrative hand this week in a casual match...

1x putrid imp
1x Faithless looting
2x Golgari thugs
1x bridge from below
1x cabal therapy
1x Lion eye`s Diamond

In a tournament I would mullingan this hand, however, I was on the draw and decided to keep... I drew another LED

Played both LEDs, activated one to play Looting ... I found a GGT and another Looting in the process ... then activated another LED ... and that is it !!!

Funny hand that makes me love the combination of LED with Looting, apart of probability issues...

Michael Keller
03-30-2012, 11:33 AM
So how are sideboards looking at the moment? I myself am a bit torn between Hollywood's and Ando's choices (and reasoning). After re-reading Feldman's great Dark Art (www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21777_The_Dark_Art_Of_Dredge_Fu.html) article again I am quite unsure what to bring in an unknown meta (read: bigger tournament out of your city).


For reference, this is my current list, which is quite close to Ando's list from Indy:

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
2 Ichorid
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

4 Bridge from Below
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
3 Dread Return
3 Cabal Therapy


It's the board where it getting interesting (see above):

SB 3 Firestorm
SB 1 Ancient Grudge
SB 2 Nature's Claim
SB 1 Chain of Vapor
SB 2 Coffin Purge
SB 1 Cabal Therapy
SB 1 Faerie Macabre
SB 2 Ichorid
SB 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB 1 Angel of Despair


My concerns about the list:
- 2 or 3 Ichorids main? While 2 might be typically enough, I'd love to board to the full 4 in certain matchups. As SB space is scarce, maybe the 3rd could find it's way back in?
- Even more important: I'd love to fit the 4. Therapy into my maindeck.

Again: How is you board looking and what's your reasoning for doing so? I saw that Hollywood ran anti-hate despite Feldman's findings, and I am with him that some form of anti-hate might be needed. On the other hand anti-hate might indeed mean drawing / dredging blanks.

I think as time has progressed people have begun to understand that Feldman's article was seriously and deeply flawed. Dredge has become more intricate as time has gone by, in addition to a general meta plagued by plenty more graveyard hate than had existed at that article's inception.

With that being said, the reason I opted to run Coffin Purge in my sideboard was because I wanted to have a solid card that didn't increase my mulligan aggressiveness at the start of the game in search of anti-hate spells. With something like Faerie Macabre here exclusively, you'd have to open-hand one to use it, and that really isn't all that necessary when you dilute your own strategy down a bit in the process.

Against an opponent running Leyline, that's a whole other story. You don't want to straight-up lose to that card, which is why you want to have a fighting chance.

Against Reanimator, I just basically go with the Purges and make attempts to strip my opponent's hands in the process of conditional counter-magic. Once that is done, mana-up with Purge becomes insanely good, because it puts you a step ahead. Faerie Macabre is obviously better at fighting that, but again - you're better off just going off with LED at the ready and try to (virtually) win the game on the spot. Reanimator has to actually be able to start with an Entomb, reanimation spell, and hate spell for them to have a good chance at beating you. Otherwise, the deck cannot afford to reanimate sub-optimal targets while you smash their face in - and make the card Reanimate really bad for them in the process, and making Exhume relatively funny - bringing back a huge Troll.

My sideboard hasn't changed and probably won't until I continue seeing a reason to try other things out due to a meta shift, but that hasn't happened yet so I'm still where I was at before. Ando's list is fine, but he is going for the Flayer kill and another Dread Return main. I personally feel the deck is fast enough where two Dread Returns are more than enough as an alternative kill mechanic, but I don't know if three is worth it.

Remember, if you're blasting through a huge portion of your deck game one, then two Dread Return is really all you'll need to gain a massive advantage over an opponent quickly, Three can be good, but it's really a matter of taste.

If anything, I'm thinking about upping the count of Grudges to three at this point. Also, Firestorm again is a card that I just cannot cut to tighten up those games against Affinity and Elves where you can just blow them out early.

Additionally, I'd be careful about running two more Ichorid in your sideboard. Ichorid requires a certain amount of Black creatures to feed it, so just keep that in mind. I personally love the card, but I think three might just be the right number at this point.

Michael Keller
03-30-2012, 11:45 AM
I had a funny ilustrative hand this week in a casual match...

1x putrid imp
1x Faithless looting
2x Golgari thugs
1x bridge from below
1x cabal therapy
1x Lion eye`s Diamond

In a tournament I would mullingan this hand, however, I was on the draw and decided to keep... I drew another LED

Played both LEDs, activated one to play Looting ... I found a GGT and another Looting in the process ... then activated another LED ... and that is it !!!

Funny hand that makes me love the combination of LED with Looting, apart of probability issues...

I played against Alix Hatfield this week (who was running Maverick) in the local event and game two I hand some dredgers and other good stuff in my graveyard after a mulligan that left me with only a Cephalid Coliseum in play (after just playing Breakthrough to dump my hand the previous turn).

After checking out my graveyard, I generally calculated what the odds were of me drawing into something that could be virtually game-winning in that scenario. Alix also mulled, and had a relatively decent start accelerating into Hierarch, and I felt as though I had a good chance of drawing into a ton of cards that could help me.

Here was my graveyard (to the best of my memory):

Looting
Troll
Imp
Imp
Thug
Dread Return
Breakthrough
Etc.

There were no lands, no LED's, and no Studies. I also had a few more Breakthrough left and every other land in my deck. Here were the cards I could have drawn to explode on him:

4 Careful Study
2 Breakthrough
12 Lands
4 LED

That's 22 cards I could have drawn into to virtually win me the game on the spot, after already going through 11 of them (mulligan, draw for turn, then four off Breakthrough, too). Those leave you tremendous odds drawing into business over just a basic dredge.

So, I felt as though "slow-dredging" him and simply dredging an Imp would be suboptimal at that point because I had so many cards I could actually draw into to basically explode all over him, and sure enough, I drew another Breakthrough.

Game over.

LED Dredge actually top-decks better than people give it credit for, which is illustrated in this circumstance and the one you mentioned drawing an LED. You just have to calculate the risks in regards to what your graveyard has in it in conjunction with what is left in your deck. If you feel you want to draw a card, by all means under the circumstances go for it.

K1w1
04-01-2012, 11:48 AM
Ok,
after failing at the trial for bazaar of moxen(2-3) with Necro (3-2) and Hokus(2-3) ( :D ) i decided to try a bloodghast/led/flayer list.
First of all, i thought, how can i build this deck without losing at speed, because i tried it sometimes to build a bloodghast/flayer list but i failed.
While i was in my bed and tried to sleep, i had an idea.
How about changing the quadlazer in triple?
Of course you need some cards as a 4-off but that's all.

So this is my list:

3 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Breakthrough
3 Putrid Imp
3 Careful Study
3 Faithless Looting
3 Ichorid
3 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Undiscovered Paradise
3 City of Brass
3 Bloodghast
3 Dread Return
3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

Maybe i can change something for the 4th LED, but i think it's fine atm.

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Memory's Journey
1 Ray of Revelation
4 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Firestorm ( f***ing Maverick ) ( and Ooze )

Any comments?

K1w1

joemauer
04-01-2012, 12:18 PM
I would play four LEDs or none.

Also, sun Titan plays well with bloodghast.

Izor
04-01-2012, 05:58 PM
Ok,
after failing at the trial for bazaar of moxen(2-3) with Necro (3-2) and Hokus(2-3) ( :D ) i decided to try a bloodghast/led/flayer list.

Did you all run the Quad list? If so, add lands!


After not being able ro make it to any major tournaments/trials this weekend, I played in a small local tournament. After pondering for a while, I decided to give LED Dredge a shot, even though I feel more comfortable with LEDless.

This was the list:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Tarnished Citadel

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Putrid Imp
2 Ichorid
4 Bridge From Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
1 Dread Return

4 Nature's Claim
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Coffin Purge
1 Dread Return
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Firestorm
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 don't remember


Round 1 vs Team America:

Game 1 I easily win. He has no interaction.
Game 2 he finds an Extirpate and has two early Goyfs while I don't dredge into anything.
Game 3 I Therapy away one Extirpate and proceed to win pretty easily.

Round 2 vs Storm Combo

Game 1 I'm on the play, he mulls to 6. I open on Therapy on LED and he shows me Land, 3xLotus Petal, Cabal Ritual, Infernal Tutor. Awesome... He casts his Petals, lays a land and passes. Turn two I hardcast a Narcomoeba and Flashback Therapy for the Tutor (seeing that he drew a land last turn). He doesn't do anything on his next turn. Turn three I go off with LED and several draw effects. I dredge over 40 cards and find 3 Bridge and 3 Therapies, but no more Narcos... He topdecks Burning Wish and wins via fast mana into Wish for PiF.

Game 2 I go off turn two, but I can't find a second Dredger in the top 20 cards of my library. He kills me on turn 2.

Round 3 vs Burn

I blow him out game 1

I blow him out game two again. I know his hate is only some Macabres, so I therapy for it before going off.

Round 4 vs RUG Delver

Game 1 is a blowout. I easily kill him.

Game two he has turn 1 Delver, turn 2 Delver, turn 3 Goyf backed up by double Daze and Surgical Extraction on my Bridges.

Game 3: I know he has both Surgical and Crypts. I keep a good hand with two Lands, Therapy and Ancient Grudge. Guess what happens. I Therapy for Extraction, seeing a hand with Crypt, Delver, Goyf and other stuff. He keeps the Crypt in his hand and starts applying pressure early. When I have to commit to my bin, he lays and immediately activates the Crypt. He easily wins.

Losing the last match knocked me out of contention, so I went home. Some thoughts:

- LED was good in the Storm and Burn matchup. Except in one game, though, Tireless Tribe would have done exactly the same.

- I drew the two additional maindeck Lands all the time. Without them, I would have had to mull a lot of hands. This way I only mulled once to 6 I think. I would never play only 8 gold lands, 10 is the minimum imho.

- I really really missed Tireless Tribe in the RUG Tempo matchup. Both LED and Breakthrough are cards that don't do anything in that matchup post board, while Tribe is the exact card that lets you play around Crypts and stall Goyfs / Mongooses until you can generate board presence. I won't claim that Tribes would have won that games for me, but LED and BT were such a liability, my deck felt very vulnerable.


In general, I do think that 7-8 discard dorks hugely improve your post board matchups, no matter against what type of graveyard hate you're up against. I think I'm going to play LEDless again next time.

Final Fortune
04-01-2012, 06:23 PM
Random question, which do you guys feel is definitevely better if you had to play either, Winds of Change or Burning Inquiry?

NecroYawgmoth
04-01-2012, 06:57 PM
Did you all run the Quad list? If so, add lands!


I ran a list which was basically a mix from the Flayer-GP-Dredge and Quadlazer [with 14 lands for the record].

The thing that annoyed me the most that day was that Coliseum can't produce :r:. Seriously!!! rageface.jpg

Anyways... I played like a complete idiot this day, so don't mind my result... [well, at least I wasn't the only one *looking to Hokus* :laugh::laugh::laugh:]. Btw, our mirror was definitely the best match this day. ;P



Random question, which do you guys feel is definitevely better if you had to play either, Winds of Change or Burning Inquiry?

Winds of Change, because it flips your deck. Burning Inquiry doesn't yard you a dredger 100% if you need it, so I go for the raw draw-power out of these 2.

igri_is_a_bk
04-01-2012, 09:12 PM
With LED, isn't Burning Inquiry better since it'll actually dredge with the artifact in play? Where WoC would do nothing if you needed to activate LED for discard.

HokusSchmokus
04-01-2012, 09:49 PM
As Kiwi said, I failed said trial. Tried the GP list -1 citadel +1 therapy main. I would find room for another Ichorid and possibly a 4 th study, but to be fair, I only played with 3 lootings (deck registration said 4, had to add a basic island that won a game :D)
so maybe that's why. Ichorid needs to be in there for sure. My board was the quadlazerboard with 2 ichorids in it.
I played like shit the entire day, but that was basicly the only reason I didn't do well. 12 lands where enough.

Izor
04-01-2012, 10:23 PM
had to add a basic island that won a game :D)
so maybe that's why.

12 lands where enough.

Isn't that somewhat contradictory?

I'm going to hold my point. Playing decks with 12 spells that can only be cast off of 8 Lands in it isn't my way to play this game. I'll try to squeeze in as many lands as I can. But to everyone his own I guess.



I think Winds is better than Inquiry, though I don't see any reason to play any of those. We have Looting, Study, Breakthrough and Coliseum, why would you want another draw spell?

jares
04-02-2012, 12:26 AM
Isn't that somewhat contradictory?

I'm going to hold my point. Playing decks with 12 spells that can only be cast off of 8 Lands in it isn't my way to play this game. I'll try to squeeze in as many lands as I can. But to everyone his own I guess.



I think Winds is better than Inquiry, though I don't see any reason to play any of those. We have Looting, Study, Breakthrough and Coliseum, why would you want another draw spell?
Taking the risk of running fewer Gold Lands is indeed a considerable risk, but it has paid-off for others, while others (like NecroYawgmoth) have experienced the drawbacks first-hand - even while running 14 lands. I'm probably the only one that has taken the extra mile to minimize that risk by running more than 14, but to each his own. :tongue:

I personally like Burning Inquiry over Winds of Change for the following reasons:

Burning Inquiry ensures that you'll draw 3 cards. In comparison, Winds of Change does not allow you to conveniently discard cards from your hand (before playing it; e.g. Dredgers) without affecting the potential draw power.
Burning Inquiry is at least able to put cards into your graveyard instead of throwing it back in - Narcomoeba is the only card that benefits from shuffling cards back in.
Because you're able to force your opponent to discard three cards, you're also able to give yourself three more clues for what to name when you play Cabal Therapy.
Although largely unreliable, it can still serve as an emergency discard outlet in dire situations.
I find that the potential draw power of Winds of Change can rarely be maximized - it will require you at least 5 cards in hand to draw at least 4 cards. Given that the opening hand consists of 7 cards, and that you will need a land to cast it (down to 6 in hand), and assuming that you'll want at least 1 dredger in the graveyard (down to 5 in hand) and a discard outlet to get it there (down to 4 in hand, which will result in drawing 3 cards), the odds are simply not in the card's favor - or at least, that's how I tested it.
Burning Inquiry has the better illustration. :tongue:
In terms of disrupting your opponent, I personally like the mulligan effect of Winds of Change better (with Cabal Therapy aside), but this advantage isn't enough to have me choose it over Burning Inquiry.

I hope this helps.

Cheers,
jares

Vandalize
04-02-2012, 09:12 AM
Report time! Played in my local store today, 5 rounds + cut for top 8.

I wanted to try my LED build, but my friend convinced me to go for LEDless. This was the list:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Tarnished Citadel

4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
1 Firestorm

4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast

4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return

SB: 4 Chain of Vapor (expecting tons of reanimator)
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Purify the Grave

Round 1: TES
G1: I win the roll and start with my shiny PImp. He goes Volcanic Island into Ponder, drops a Lotus Petal and pass. I discard Stinkweed Imp in my upkeep, and he pops his Petal into Silence. My face goes poker, as I have 1 Careful Study and 1 Breakthough in my hand. I dump 7 to reach Threshold, attack for 2 and pass. He Ponders again and goes off via Ad Nauseam.

SB: +1 Iona -1 Firestorm

G2: I blind Therapy for LED, and he shows 2 Dark Ritual, Ad Nauseam and a fetchland. Ops.

0-1

Round 2: Death and Taxes
G1: Nothing new, I stomp his AEther Vial opening.

SB: +2 Firestorm +1 Ingot Chewer -1 PImp -1 Tribe -1 Dread Return

G2: I Firestorm his Mom, but my Stinkweed fails to find another Dredger. Double Wasteland followed by Thalia sealed the deal.

G3: Fast opening with T1 Tribe into Breakthrough. I make fast zombies after some Therapies. He was never into this game, despite topdecking a Relic of Progenitus

1-1

Round 3: Reanimator
G1: I build my board slowly after he FoWs my Careful Study in turn 2. Still, he has no Entomb, and his Careful Study bins nothing. At some point, he manages to bin Jin, but I already have lots of Zombies and Exhume brings a 8/8 Troll to the party. Lucky me.

SB: +4 Chain of Vapor +3 Faerie Macabre -4 Breakthrough -1 Ichorid -1 PImp -1 Firestorm

G2: He goes T1 Entomb for Elesh but my Chain of Vapor gets it. I'm able to build 4 Tokens and a Tribe. He bins Elesh + Sphinx with Careful Study, but my Faerie Macabre hits it responding Exhume. I bring back an Ichorid and beat his face.

2-1

Round 4: Reanimator
G1: kept a slow hand, but wouldn't matter, he knows I'm on dredge and Entombs Elesh.

SB: +4 Chain of Vapor +3 Faerie Macabre -4 Breakthrough -1 Ichorid -1 PImp -1 Firestorm

G2: See G1

2-2

Round 5: Mono-B Pox
G1: This matchup is such a bye. Discard + Land Destruction is nothing against this deck. And his Liliana of the Veil is pretty dead, as well. I stomp him easily.

SB: +1 Ancient Grudge -1 Firestorm

G2: He opens with double Leyline of the Void. Ops.

SB: +4 Chain of Vapor -1 Ancient Grudge -1 PImp -1 Breakthrough -1 Darkblast

G3: He mulls to 4 and opens with no Leyline. I stomp him, despite having a slow hand

3-2

Top 8 breaks and I'm the 8th player on the ranking. Didn't matter tho. I had to drop to go to my angry GF house, damn she was raging.

Pros: Got my set of Putrid Imp, Tireless Tribe and Careful Study foil, and 1 foil Ichorid. And LEDless is awesome. Didn't face any Surgical Extraction, but there were 2 Stoneblade in Top8, as well.
Cons: Couldn't play Top8 and food was damn expensive there.

That was pretty much it.

GoldenCid
04-02-2012, 12:00 PM
Fascinated of reading such a good primer!!
Dredge, LED Dredge, was the deck that, 2 years ago, put me in the 2nd national place of Legacy players ranking and i love it! In old threads i had variated friendly discussions with parcher about the deck and it sideboarding plans. It was another metagame and there was less hate cards. After that i focused on other tipes of decks and now i'm reconsidering my LED Dredge again. In my opinion one of the best deckin the format ever!
So, i'd like to add some comments or notes to the topic:
Faithless loothing is certainly an upgrade to dredge. It allows you to make pressure since turn 1 at the time you can flashback it with LED. This is cute. Moreover, FL allows you to dig for sideboard cards in games 2 and 3 which make your mulligans less commons in those games, this even more valuable. However the card has a BUT. Colour incompatibility is a real problem here. We run coliseum and breakthrough as bomb cards, formerly combined with deep analysis. All cards require blue for casting them. What happen when we have coliseum and LED on line? Consider that dredge is almost a “one land in play” deck. So you will crack LED for UUU, crack coliseum go for 3 cards and then what? No Deep Analysis will appear. This traumatized me for a while and arrived to the conclusion that running eternal witness is a good “trick” for exploding both cards depending on the circumstances. This is explained for the retrieve ability of this girl that allows you to get back breakthrough, LED, coliseum or whatever you need to go off using the UU remaining from the first LED. ;)
Off course if you have a rainbow land and LED on line and FL in hand you won’t hesitate about it, cast it and crack LED for RRR and go for it.
This is the list is achieved after this reasoning:

// Lands
4 [AN] City of Brass
3 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
1 [OD] Tarnished Citadel

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
1 [SHM] Woodfall Primus
1 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
3 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [DKA] Faithless Looting

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 [WL] Firestorm
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 [NPH] Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 [10E] Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 1 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 [ISD] Memory's Journey


It took out 1 Breakthrough because you can get it via FL in contrast with the FL less version which indeed needs to run a full set.
Memory’s Journey in the SB deserves testing in my opinion to get rid from that annoying double surgical extraction via snapcaster mage.
Finally, one question for you: Does Elesh Norn still worth in the side? I included him but in which games do you think he’s crucial.

Thanks you all,

GC.

HokusSchmokus
04-02-2012, 12:16 PM
Fascinated of reading such a good primer!!
Dredge, LED Dredge, was the deck that, 2 years ago, put me in the 2nd national place of Legacy players ranking and i love it! In old threads i had variated friendly discussions with parcher about the deck and it sideboarding plans. It was another metagame and there was less hate cards. After that i focused on other tipes of decks and now i'm reconsidering my LED Dredge again. In my opinion one of the best deckin the format ever!
So, i'd like to add some comments or notes to the topic:
Faithless loothing is certainly an upgrade to dredge. It allows you to make pressure since turn 1 at the time you can flashback it with LED. This is cute. Moreover, FL allows you to dig for sideboard cards in games 2 and 3 which make your mulligans less commons in those games, this even more valuable. However the card has a BUT. Colour incompatibility is a real problem here. We run coliseum and breakthrough as bomb cards, formerly combined with deep analysis. All cards require blue for casting them. What happen when we have coliseum and LED on line? Consider that dredge is almost a “one land in play” deck. So you will crack LED for UUU, crack coliseum go for 3 cards and then what? No Deep Analysis will appear. This traumatized me for a while and arrived to the conclusion that running eternal witness is a good “trick” for exploding both cards depending on the circumstances. This is explained for the retrieve ability of this girl that allows you to get back breakthrough, LED, coliseum or whatever you need to go off using the UU remaining from the first LED. ;)
Off course if you have a rainbow land and LED on line and FL in hand you won’t hesitate about it, cast it and crack LED for RRR and go for it.
This is the list is achieved after this reasoning:

// Lands
4 [AN] City of Brass
3 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
1 [OD] Tarnished Citadel

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
1 [SHM] Woodfall Primus
1 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
3 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [DKA] Faithless Looting

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 [WL] Firestorm
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 [NPH] Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 [10E] Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 1 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 [ISD] Memory's Journey


It took out 1 Breakthrough because you can get it via FL in contrast with the FL less version which indeed needs to run a full set.
Memory’s Journey in the SB deserves testing in my opinion to get rid from that annoying double surgical extraction via snapcaster mage.
Finally, one question for you: Does Elesh Norn still worth in the side? I included him but in which games do you think he’s crucial.

Thanks you all,

GC.

Well, Elesh Norn still completely demolishes the mirror.
I am curious why you chose FKZ and exspecially Eternal Witness as targets. Do you really think the cute "trick" you described is worth running it over cards like Careful Study, which isn't in your list at all.

GoldenCid
04-02-2012, 12:43 PM
Well, i never liked the put all togheter list...CS demands cutting PImp or the DR targert...dont know if it worth....

joemauer
04-02-2012, 01:34 PM
So faithless looting is great and careful study is bad?

GoldenCid
04-02-2012, 02:02 PM
So faithless looting is great and careful study is bad?

No way.
It's true that FL > CS but CS is still good. WhaT i'm saying that Havig:

4 P Imp + 4 FL + Witness + 3 Breakthrough is better than

4 CS + 4 FL + 4 Breakthrough

jares
04-02-2012, 02:43 PM
No way.
It's true that FL > CS but CS is still good. WhaT i'm saying that Havig:

4 P Imp + 4 FL + Witness + 3 Breakthrough is better than

4 CS + 4 FL + 4 Breakthrough
I'm curious. What are your considerations for saying that one combination is better than the other?

Kind Regards,
jares

jares
04-02-2012, 02:51 PM
Report time! Played in my local store today, 5 rounds + cut for top 8.

I wanted to try my LED build, but my friend convinced me to go for LEDless. This was the list:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Tarnished Citadel

4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
1 Firestorm

4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast

4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return

SB: 4 Chain of Vapor (expecting tons of reanimator)
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Purify the Grave

It's great to see someone running 15 lands in LEDless. :tongue:

I have a few inquiries for you:

Was the damage from Tarnished Citadel ever an issue for you?
How did it feel to run that many lands?
How often did the singleton Darkblast become useful?

Cheers,
jares

GoldenCid
04-02-2012, 02:57 PM
I'm curious. What are your considerations for saying that one combination is better than the other?

Kind Regards,
jares

With "my" combination you have a permanent discard effect turn after turn.
Imagine having CS instead of P Imp in hand: you draw 2, then discard 2 or 1 dredger depending on the situation. Next turn you'll dredge and if you have no additional discard outlet in hand that dredger will never go back to the yard. Off course you could dredged another one but not always happen. The difference is marginal but sometimes relevant. With FL is a bit different due to its flashback.

jares
04-02-2012, 03:04 PM
With "my" combination you have a permanent discard effect turn after turn.
Imagine having CS instead of P Imp in hand: you draw 2, then discard 2 or 1 dredger depending on the situation. Next turn you'll dredge and if you have no additional discard outlet in hand that dredger will never go back to the yard. Off course you could dredged another one but not always happen. The difference is marginal but sometimes relevant. With FL is a bit different due to its flashback.
Is the inclusion of Eternal Witness absolutely necessary?

Cheers,
jares

GoldenCid
04-02-2012, 03:14 PM
It's healthy but no, you can run sun titan.

Michael Keller
04-02-2012, 03:31 PM
You really, really want to run Faithless Looting and Lion's Eye Diamond. I am not insinuating it is absolutely necessary, but the raw power it provides the deck is unparalleled in Legacy right now. Even Faithless Looting by itself is incredibly good as another Study effect. With LED, it's just pushed over the edge. You can skip running them by placing controlled discard outlets in your deck, which is fine, but really I'd much rather have more explosiveness to close the gap on those match-ups that were questionable to begin with, like Storm Combo. You close the gap big time with LED, which is actually really important.

Faithless Looting is the key spell here because it adds explosiveness and consistency to the deck at the same time, but LED is just incredibly attractive with it. If you guys are having difficulty running LED or are afraid to run it for varying reasons, let everyone know.

claudio.r
04-02-2012, 03:44 PM
I currently only own 2 LEDs, is LED a 4 or none kind of card?

Michael Keller
04-02-2012, 04:02 PM
I currently only own 2 LEDs, is LED a 4 or none kind of card?

Because LED is a straight-up combo card with raw power, you should either max out at four or none at all. It's a card you build your deck around, so playing anything less than four really can be a little awkward. You really want to open-hand it too, so falling back on diminished percentages isn't really the way you want to go.

Mojeh
04-02-2012, 05:07 PM
@Vandalize: Congratz on your finish.
I have a couple of questions to you.

- In Brazilian metagame, I usually prefer Firestorm over TTribe on the main deck. How was your impression of the 3-1 split? Would you change it?

-I am not sold to LED Dredge yet, do you think LEDless still has an edge? I mean, everybody is playing LED right now, but I really like playing 15 lands... what made you play LEDless over LED Dredge?

-In my last build, I played only 1 DR main deck, and add the 13 dredger. Do you think the second DR is worth main deck?

KevinTrudeau
04-02-2012, 05:34 PM
Are the Flayer-backers (over FKZ) wanting a third Dread Return in the maindeck or sideboard?

Izor
04-02-2012, 06:43 PM
You really, really want to run Faithless Looting and Lion's Eye Diamond. I am not insinuating it is absolutely necessary, but the raw power it provides the deck is unparalleled in Legacy right now. Even Faithless Looting by itself is incredibly good as another Study effect. With LED, it's just pushed over the edge. You can skip running them by placing controlled discard outlets in your deck, which is fine, but really I'd much rather have more explosiveness to close the gap on those match-ups that were questionable to begin with, like Storm Combo. You close the gap big time with LED, which is actually really important.

Faithless Looting is the key spell here because it adds explosiveness and consistency to the deck at the same time, but LED is just incredibly attractive with it. If you guys are having difficulty running LED or are afraid to run it for varying reasons, let everyone know.

You're 100% right when it comes to pre board games, or games where there is no interaction at all. As soon as you face hate, Tireless Tribe is suddenly a million times better than LED and I'm not exaggerating. Having LEDs in your deck when your opponent has active hate pieces is a huge liability. I know that you can just 'race' some conditional hate every now and then.

I'm not afraid of being half a turn slower against Combo decks. Especially not after I figured out that the speed discrepancy is much smaller than I thought. I'm afraid of losing games to graveyard hate. And this is where LED sucks hard.

The question people have to ask themselves is whether they'd rather have an improved post board game when facing any sorts of graveyard hate or if they want to be half a turn faster in games that you usually win anyway.

Vandalize
04-02-2012, 08:37 PM
@Vandalize: Congratz on your finish.
I have a couple of questions to you.

- In Brazilian metagame, I usually prefer Firestorm over TTribe on the main deck. How was your impression of the 3-1 split? Would you change it?

-I am not sold to LED Dredge yet, do you think LEDless still has an edge? I mean, everybody is playing LED right now, but I really like playing 15 lands... what made you play LEDless over LED Dredge?

-In my last build, I played only 1 DR main deck, and add the 13 dredger. Do you think the second DR is worth main deck?

Tribe is better maindeck I think. They are bodies for Therapy, and blocks like a champ. Firestorm would be better if I was expecting more GW Maverick, but there were just 1 in the tournament.

LEDless uses Cabal Therapy better, simply because it can cast it off Lands and have more bodies for Flashback (another reason to choose Tribe), while LED usually flashbacks it after comboing.

The 3-1 split was mainly due to having 3 Foil Tireless Tribes only, lol.

As for Dread Return, I've been happy with it everytime I saw it. I think that the small chance to get it in the opening hand is overcome by it's ability to make lots of Zombies and a huge Troll in the process. I was about to try a Flame-kin Zealot in MD Firestorm slot, but changed it in the last minute.

Perhaps I'm going to fit that FKZ somewhere in the main deck again. My friend said something I couldn't agree more: In Legacy, you can't afford to pass the turn, you lose if you pass the turn.

@jares: Tarnished Citadel sucks (mostly against burn). But until they print a gold land with a better drawback, I'm sticking with it.

Michael Keller
04-02-2012, 09:10 PM
You're 100% right when it comes to pre board games, or games where there is no interaction at all. As soon as you face hate, Tireless Tribe is suddenly a million times better than LED and I'm not exaggerating. Having LEDs in your deck when your opponent has active hate pieces is a huge liability. I know that you can just 'race' some conditional hate every now and then.

I'm not afraid of being half a turn slower against Combo decks. Especially not after I figured out that the speed discrepancy is much smaller than I thought. I'm afraid of losing games to graveyard hate. And this is where LED sucks hard.

The question people have to ask themselves is whether they'd rather have an improved post board game when facing any sorts of graveyard hate or if they want to be half a turn faster in games that you usually win anyway.

But see that's just the thing: you can't be afraid of graveyard hate, even with LED in the mix. LED is not a liability, it's a broken enabler that plants your library into your graveyard fast enough where all you'll really need (especially against slower combo decks or decks ill-equipped to deal with Dredge) is a solid discard spell to shake things up. Practice with Therapy is critical. I cannot understate this.

I've had so many people - including real life - rage-quit on me because of blind Therapies crushing their hands. Therapy is incredibly important in sideboard games.

The problem people are having is that they are just resigning themselves to fearing and losing to Extraction when they should just blow the card out. An opponent isn't going to always have one, and the deck is equipped to fight Crypt and Leyline as-is post-board. Surgical Extraction is only decent in the hands of a player who knows how to use it, and with someone who has the nut-high with Snapcaster Mage.

Otherwise, I am not wasting my time and I'm going for the blowout win. Sure, I've walked into Extraction before. But that's a card I only care about in distinct circumstances, where I cannot and should not play around it because all it will do is give the player playing it - who doesn't have it in their hand - more time to find one as turns progress.

The best way to beat Surgical Extraction is to take it on full steam ahead and not fear it. You'll win more games than you'll lose against it, trust me.

Leyline is a different story. I think the card is garbage, and if an opponent is that hard-up on trying to find one to slow me down, I have some free mulligans and plenty of draw spells to get me removal when I need it. If my opponent is running both Extraction and Leyline (overloading on hate), then good for them. Play tight and play around it.

Klazam
04-02-2012, 09:48 PM
KevinTrudeau
Are the Flayer-backers (over FKZ) wanting a third Dread Return in the maindeck or sideboard?

You need the third maindeck, because you need to dredge into two to win the game on the spot.
-----

Also, the people who are saying that LED is always boarded out in favor of more lands are suffering from the misconception that LED is a turn one combo card. You ALWAYS have the ability to cast it, but not crack it immediately if that's what the situation calls for. I found myself rarely siding out LEDs, because they are a really good enabler that supercharges Faithless Lootings. And I can see that the players who are winning with LED builds do not have lands in their side, also.

Izor
04-02-2012, 10:33 PM
Also, the people who are saying that LED is always boarded out in favor of more lands are suffering from the misconception that LED is a turn one combo card. You ALWAYS have the ability to cast it, but not crack it immediately if that's what the situation calls for. I found myself rarely siding out LEDs, because they are a really good enabler that supercharges Faithless Lootings. And I can see that the players who are winning with LED builds do not have lands in their side, also.

That's not what I meant. I'm well aware of what LED can do if noone interacts with me. It doesn't get us anywhere if every time someone points at a disadvantage of LED, the counter argument is always the same: 'But LED is so fast. And so broken. Just run it!'


But what if your opponent has a Tormod's Crypt on the board? Say you have Land+Breakthrough+Dredger+LED. You can't do anything. Literally nothing. You have to overcommit and use your BT to draw some random cards and try to hit another Dredger. And even if you find one, you might not find another one.

Now, if that LED was a Tireless Tribe, it looks a zillion times better. Slowdredge until they're forced to crack the Crypt, bin the Dredger again and go off via Breakthrough. End of story. And in the process, you take X less damage each turn because your 1/X guy blocks their guys to no end.



I know that people seem to be winning with LED Dredge. But do you also know how many people get crushed horribly in tournaments? No, you don't, because you usually only see the top 16, not the bottom 16.

And let's be honest: After Dredge was hyped like nothing after DKA became legal, where are the results? Dredge doesn't perform any better than before Looting, not in the slightest. A top 8 here, two top 16 there - nothing special. And it's not only because of the graveyard hate. Look at how much grave hate people had in their sbs at the SCG Invitational. Immediately after Lootings became legal, all you heard was that the tournament rooms were full of LED Dredge lists. Yet, apart from Prosaks luck-sack win and your top 8, I didn't see any extraordinary results. LEDless Dredge performed just as well before.

Mojeh
04-02-2012, 10:42 PM
@Vandalize: Thanks for your feedback ^^
Well, I play Firestorm over Tribe exactly because of the increasing number of Maverick (and some Merfolk too, this deck is still very present in my metagame), but I can see tribe's merit.
I just can't agree with the addition of FKZ. It does help racing once in a while, but it's too conditional, I'd rather run a more solid target, maybe Iona. Iona doesn't win right away, but can block a considerable number of plays and is evasive (this can be incredibly useful against Aggro, blocking their removals and swinging while your zombies can block).

K1w1
04-03-2012, 01:23 AM
Avacyn, Angel of Hope 5WWW

Flying, Vigilance

Avacyn, Angel of Hope and other permanents you control are indestructable. 8/8

joemauer
04-03-2012, 02:16 AM
Avacyn, Angel of Hope 5WWW

Flying, Vigilance

Avacyn, Angel of Hope and other permanents you control are indestructable. 8/8

Swords to Plowshares:cry:

NewDredgePlayer
04-03-2012, 03:00 AM
The best way to beat Surgical Extraction is to take it on full steam ahead and not fear it. You'll win more games than you'll lose against it, trust me.


How about a tortured existence/street wraith sideboard?

jares
04-03-2012, 03:02 AM
@jares: Tarnished Citadel sucks (mostly against burn). But until they print a gold land with a better drawback, I'm sticking with it.
I agree. I find that, at this point in time, we'll really just need to make do with what we have. Have you considered running Undiscovered Paradise in the place of some Tarnished Citadels?

Cheers,
jares

jares
04-03-2012, 03:12 AM
How about a tortured existence/street wraith sideboard?
While there's every chance that that might work, it looks to me like investing several slots in the sideboard for the purpose of combating Surgical Extraction might do more harm than good.

Kind Regards,
jares

K1w1
04-03-2012, 04:10 AM
Swords to Plowshares:cry:

That happens with each creature without shroud. But if she stays one turn, it should be good game. Your lands can't be destroyed and your zombies are save.But Hey just in theory.

Final Fortune
04-03-2012, 05:24 AM
Isn't that somewhat contradictory?

I'm going to hold my point. Playing decks with 12 spells that can only be cast off of 8 Lands in it isn't my way to play this game. I'll try to squeeze in as many lands as I can. But to everyone his own I guess.



I think Winds is better than Inquiry, though I don't see any reason to play any of those. We have Looting, Study, Breakthrough and Coliseum, why would you want another draw spell?

I'm testing sans Putrid Imp, LED and Coliseum in favor of Phantasmagorian, Undiscovered Paradise and X draw spell

@Vandalize

I don't think it's a question of Tireless Tribe vs Faithless Looting, if you're willing to cut a Land, the Firestorm and the Darkblast from the deck you can play 3xFaithless Looting as sub-par Careful Studies and still keep your 2xDread Return.

Are you SBing out Dread Return vs Surgical Extraction or SBing in Dread Return targets vs Surgical Extraction? I find Surgical Extraction on Golgari Grave Troll neuters its usefulness post-board

useL
04-03-2012, 06:28 AM
Hi,

I just have a quick and easy question for you probably. Why is it that the deck running Flayer most oftenly only have 2 Ichorids? Wouldn't it be better to have more to be able to do more direct damage?

Izor
04-03-2012, 08:37 AM
Hi,

I just have a quick and easy question for you probably. Why is it that the deck running Flayer most oftenly only have 2 Ichorids? Wouldn't it be better to have more to be able to do more direct damage?

You say it. Doesn't really have to do wth the Flayer, though...

Of course it would be better to have more Ichys. But those Flayer lists also run LED and running LED forces you to cut back on some of the best cards of the deck, namely Ichorid and sometimes Breakthrough, Careful Study, Cabal Therapy and most importantly Lands.

Gui
04-03-2012, 09:19 AM
-I am not sold to LED Dredge yet, do you think LEDless still has an edge? I mean, everybody is playing LED right now, but I really like playing 15 lands... what made you play LEDless over LED Dredge?

I think LEDless still has an edge, but it's tunned to fight the wrong set of hates. The reason why LEDless is chosen over LED is the options we used to get from Chain of Vapor, Nature's Claim, Ancient Grudge and Ray of Revelation out of the side, with the ability to cast them way more often, since running a high amount of lands.

This configuration fights through Tormod's and Relics, but isn't amazing at fighting Extraction or the current deck to beat we see everywhere - Maverick. IMHO, if you want to play LEDless, you need to choose the cards and sideboards to tune the deck against these.

Since LED can fight Maverick with raw speed, and can fight extraction pretty much the same as LEDless, as of right now, out of the two common builds, LED is better. LEDless needs to evolve.

Final Fortune
04-03-2012, 09:45 AM
I think LEDless still has an edge, but it's tunned to fight the wrong set of hates. The reason why LEDless is chosen over LED is the options we used to get from Chain of Vapor, Nature's Claim, Ancient Grudge and Ray of Revelation out of the side, with the ability to cast them way more often, since running a high amount of lands.

This configuration fights through Tormod's and Relics, but isn't amazing at fighting Extraction or the current deck to beat we see everywhere - Maverick. IMHO, if you want to play LEDless, you need to choose the cards and sideboards to tune the deck against these.

Since LED can fight Maverick with raw speed, and can fight extraction pretty much the same as LEDless, as of right now, out of the two common builds, LED is better. LEDless needs to evolve.

SB 4xFirestorm, problem solved.

Gui
04-03-2012, 09:52 AM
SB 4xFirestorm, problem solved.

This doesn't fight Extraction, and you have 40% chance of fighting Maverick... doesn't impress me much...
Also doesn't fight Cage.

NecroYawgmoth
04-03-2012, 10:02 AM
SB 4xFirestorm, problem solved.

It isn't that easy dude...

What do you board out for Firestorms? You can't boar out LED because then you lose speed against Maverick. Even with Firestorm in the Main you don't constantly beat Maverick [or even worse] Bant.

Also, it doesn't fight Extraction, like Gui said.

MadManMax
04-03-2012, 10:45 AM
Played in a local tourney with my LEDless list(it's posted somewhere before the discussion "tribe or looting"). It turned out that my meta is infested with Crypt's and Relic's- so I'll have to stick with Tribe for a while. Got 4-1(loosing to Doomsday combo 1-2 because I forgot about their other combo plan in sb and missed blind Cabal Therapy there).
In the top 8 I lost to RUG Delver(1-2, won in rounds before 2-1 against him btw:cool:) because of the sb cards not comming into hand at 2nd game and all of them comming to hand and grave the 3rd game.
My qs for YOU:
1) What would be the right sb plan for this matchup? 4th Ichorid+ some artifact hate 2, 3 or 4?(he was playing relics)+ Firestorms(how many?)+ Elesh? What should I take out from LEDless?
2) When should I go for DDD plan playing against RUG Delver? Always?

joemauer
04-03-2012, 11:38 AM
Hi,

I just have a quick and easy question for you probably. Why is it that the deck running Flayer most oftenly only have 2 Ichorids? Wouldn't it be better to have more to be able to do more direct damage?

It is the nature of the flayer list. It acts more like a combo deck and less like an aggro control deck. For game one you try and deck dump then pray you have flayer and a couple dread returns ready. Ichorids and Cabal Therapy are kind of a back up plan here in case you don't deck dump.

You may also notice a lot of the flayer lists use 1-2 ichorids and 1 cabal therapy in the SB to switch gears to more of the aggro control type deck.

NewDredgePlayer
04-03-2012, 01:09 PM
Hi,

I just have a quick and easy question for you probably. Why is it that the deck running Flayer most oftenly only have 2 Ichorids? Wouldn't it be better to have more to be able to do more direct damage?

Plan A for flayer lists is to animate flayer then animate a golgari grave troll and win that turn which is why these lists usually run 3 dread returns because it wants to animate 2 creatures. Flayer isn't in there to lightning bolt people once a turn via Ichorid.

Ichorid is actually lackluster. I wonder if its actually better to cut them down to 1 and put in something else.

HokusSchmokus
04-03-2012, 02:23 PM
Plan A for flayer lists is to animate flayer then animate a golgari grave troll and win that turn which is why these lists usually run 3 dread returns because it wants to animate 2 creatures. Flayer isn't in there to lightning bolt people once a turn via Ichorid.

Ichorid is actually lackluster. I wonder if its actually better to cut them down to 1 and put in something else.

Ichorid is the single most powerful creature we have. Nothing I play in my deck gets extracted more often, nothing enters the battlefield as often and it generally makes about 5 tokens. this is not lackluster! I strongly recommend to run at least 2, 3 in any non combo list.

joemauer
04-03-2012, 02:53 PM
Ichorid is actually lackluster. I wonder if its actually better to cut them down to 1 and put in something else.

I think dredge and ichorid were interchangeable names for this deck at one point.

Sedris
04-03-2012, 03:07 PM
Ichorid is the single most powerful creature we have. Nothing I play in my deck gets extracted more often, nothing enters the battlefield as often and it generally makes about 5 tokens. this is not lackluster! I strongly recommend to run at least 2, 3 in any non combo list.

Totally agreement here. Cutting the best synergic card in the deck down to 1 does not make any sense. If you cut down Ichorid to 1, your opponent needs only 1 Swords to Plowshares for 1 Ichorid and 1 Extraction for Moeba, so that you can't reanimate anything.

Also, the Ichorid genereates tokens without Cabal Therapy and DR, what is much more important, than the most ones would think.

Vandalize
04-03-2012, 04:59 PM
I agree. I find that, at this point in time, we'll really just need to make do with what we have. Have you considered running Undiscovered Paradise in the place of some Tarnished Citadels?

Cheers,
jares

LEDless uses Cephalid Coliseum like a champ, and Undiscovered Paradise might struggle in a few moments.

@Final Fortune: That might work, except I wouldn't go below 12 Dredgers, so I could fit 2 Faithless Lootings in the place of land #15 and Firestorm.

I usually board additional targets to fight Surgical Extraction, and usually removing some sort of draw spells (usually Surgical comes along with permission).

@People in this Forum: I don't know why are you guys struggling so much with Maverick. G1 is usually very easy if you keep a average hand. And post-board, Firestorms are just insane, and they slow their clock and make card disadvantage with Enlightned Tutor. Just board some combination of Nature's Claim and Chain of Vapor, along with Firestorms in place of Tribes and you should be fine.

dropsaway
04-03-2012, 06:27 PM
Hello

I would like your help to create a favorable side to my field.



My opponents use these decks:

Affinity
Blade Control
Dragon Stompy
Enchantress
Maverick
Punishing Fire with Maverick
Nic fit (BG and BGW)
Mono Green Infect
Kithkin White Weenie

My opponents use these hates graveyard:
Surgical Extraction
Wheel of Sun and Moon
Knight of the Reliquary for bojuka bog
scavenging Ooze
Tormod's Crypt
Relic of Progenitus
Nihil Spellbomb

My list of the deck and side:

1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp

2 Dread Return
3 Firestorm
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Bridge from Below

Undiscovered Paradise 1
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

My Sideboard
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Angel of Despair
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Ichorid
4 Pithing Needle
4 Memory's Journey

Thank You
Att,
Dropsaway

NewDredgePlayer
04-03-2012, 07:42 PM
Hello

I would like your help to create a favorable side to my field.



My opponents use these decks:

Affinity
Blade Control
Dragon Stompy
Enchantress
Maverick
Punishing Fire with Maverick
Nic fit (BG and BGW)
Mono Green Infect
Kithkin White Weenie

My opoenentes use these hates graveyard:
Surgical Extraction
Wheel of Sun and Moon
Knight of the Reliquary for bojuka bog
scavenging Ooze
Tormod's Crypt
Relic of Progenitus
Nihil Spellbomb

My list of the deck and side:

1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp

2 Dread Return
3 Firestorm
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Bridge from Below

Undiscovered Paradise 1
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

My Sideboard
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Angel of Despair
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Ichorid
4 Pithing Needle
4 Memory's Journey

Thank You
Att,
Dropsaway

The first change I would make is to put Iona in the sb and put in Elesh Norn. Elesh is better in almost all the matchups you mentioned.

Michael Keller
04-03-2012, 08:00 PM
The first change I would make is to put Iona in the sb and put in Elesh Norn. Elesh is better in almost all the matchups you mentioned.

Iona is much better than Elesh Norn main-deck. Its application is broader and doesn't concern itself with shoring up aggressive strategies that you should be beating anyways. I understand it's a meta choice, but in that instance I wouldn't play either main-deck; Zealot or Flayer is probably just as good, if not better.

dropsaway
04-03-2012, 09:21 PM
Iona is much better than Elesh Norn main-deck. Its application is broader and doesn't concern itself with shoring up aggressive strategies that you should be beating anyways. I understand its a meta choice, but in that instance I wouldn't play either main-deck; Zealot or Flayer is probably just as good, if not better.

Hello Hollywood

I will replace the fkz and put flayer, and on my graveyard hates what I could change my sideaboard, sometimes I'm not sure what to remove from the deck to put the side.

Thanks again

Michael Keller
04-03-2012, 09:27 PM
Hello Hollywood

I will replace the fkz and put flayer, and on my graveyard hates what I could change my sideaboard, sometimes I'm not sure what to remove from the deck to put the side.

Thanks again

You're welcome.

However, I would consider running an additional Dread Return if you're opting to go the Flayer route. A lot of folks seem to think that is the best way to go.

dropsaway
04-03-2012, 09:36 PM
You're welcome.

However, I would consider running an additional Dread Return if you're opting to go the Flayer route. A lot of folks seem to think that is the best way to go.

You're right, I'll make some adjustments in my deck ... however its look at what could change in my sideboard to escape from my hates? if possible to help me demonstrate what to put on and off the deck against my opponents, they still have difficulty at this stage usually win the game and lose by a mistake in sideboarding...

Att,
Dropsaway

joemauer
04-04-2012, 12:21 AM
@dropsaway: If your meta is as narrow as you mentioned, then I would add nature's claim and perhaps consider Leyline of Sanctity.

Digital Devil
04-04-2012, 09:36 AM
First post in the new thread, hope I'm not flooding it. I'm playing non-LED with maindeck Iona atm and I'm having some issues, mainly against Reanimator and Sneak/Show - also Maverick after the printing of Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. Main concern with Reanimator is that they know I play Chain of Vapor so they keep bringing back Inkwell Leviathan instead of Elesh Norn, and CoV suddenly becomes useless. Not to mention Reanimator also packs Surgical Extraction, here. I usually bring in 4x Chains by siding out Careful Study. Against Sneak/Show... well, if they go the SnT route and drop Emrakul and I have my singleton Angel of Despair in hand, it's fine; otherwise, I'm dead. Maverick also became a difficult matchup, as the Wasteland + Thalia interaction completely crushes my hope of answering Knight of the Reliquary/Scavenging Ooze. My sideboard is as follows:

4x Chain of Vapor
3x Ancient Grudge
2x Ingot Chewer
2x Purify the Grave (not sure about these, though)
2x Darkblast
1x Ray of Revelation
1x Angel of Despair

There are lots of Nic Fit, Canadian Thresh and various combo decks (Hive Mind/ANT/Spiral Tide) here - any help would be appreciated.

jares
04-04-2012, 11:09 AM
First post in the new thread, hope I'm not flooding it. I'm playing non-LED with maindeck Iona atm and I'm having some issues, mainly against Reanimator and Sneak/Show - also Maverick after the printing of Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. Main concern with Reanimator is that they know I play Chain of Vapor so they keep bringing back Inkwell Leviathan instead of Elesh Norn, and CoV suddenly becomes useless. Not to mention Reanimator also packs Surgical Extraction, here. I usually bring in 4x Chains by siding out Careful Study. Against Sneak/Show... well, if they go the SnT route and drop Emrakul and I have my singleton Angel of Despair in hand, it's fine; otherwise, I'm dead. Maverick also became a difficult matchup, as the Wasteland + Thalia interaction completely crushes my hope of answering Knight of the Reliquary/Scavenging Ooze. My sideboard is as follows:

4x Chain of Vapor
3x Ancient Grudge
2x Ingot Chewer
2x Purify the Grave (not sure about these, though)
2x Darkblast
1x Ray of Revelation
1x Angel of Despair

There are lots of Nic Fit, Canadian Thresh and various combo decks (Hive Mind/ANT/Spiral Tide) here - any help would be appreciated.
I personally rely on Faerie Macabre to help with the Reanimator match-up, and I certainly like it better than Chain of Vapor because Reanimator (normally) does not have the means to counter it. I've also been considering running a singleton Purify the Grave, though I haven't had the time (or the sideboard space) to test it - I expect it to be very helpful, though, even in the match-ups where you can expect Surgical Extractions.

I would also be interested in some ideas for our sideboard options against the Sneaky Show match-up.

Kind Regards,
jares

Michael Keller
04-04-2012, 11:29 AM
First post in the new thread, hope I'm not flooding it. I'm playing non-LED with maindeck Iona atm and I'm having some issues, mainly against Reanimator and Sneak/Show - also Maverick after the printing of Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. Main concern with Reanimator is that they know I play Chain of Vapor so they keep bringing back Inkwell Leviathan instead of Elesh Norn, and CoV suddenly becomes useless. Not to mention Reanimator also packs Surgical Extraction, here. I usually bring in 4x Chains by siding out Careful Study. Against Sneak/Show... well, if they go the SnT route and drop Emrakul and I have my singleton Angel of Despair in hand, it's fine; otherwise, I'm dead. Maverick also became a difficult matchup, as the Wasteland + Thalia interaction completely crushes my hope of answering Knight of the Reliquary/Scavenging Ooze. My sideboard is as follows:

4x Chain of Vapor
3x Ancient Grudge
2x Ingot Chewer
2x Purify the Grave (not sure about these, though)
2x Darkblast
1x Ray of Revelation
1x Angel of Despair

There are lots of Nic Fit, Canadian Thresh and various combo decks (Hive Mind/ANT/Spiral Tide) here - any help would be appreciated.

Assuming you are facing combo decks like the aforementioned, the inclusion of Lion's Eye Diamond dramatically increases your win percentages against those decks due to its raw, sheer speed. Additionally, decks like Nic Fit and Canadian Thresh you should just crush no matter what variation of Dredge you're running game one, and you should sideboard appropriately game two and or three. Because you are opting not to run Lion's Eye Diamond (for whatever reason), understand that your match-up with Maverick diminishes a bit because you have more difficulty racing Ooze with Thalia and Wasteland - it's just the nature of the beast.

Firestorm is good, but if they're keeping you off mana and sticking a Thalia first, that could spell trouble.

Reanimator is a different story. It is an incredibly hard deck for Dredge to beat without Lion's Eye Diamond as you generally cannot race a turn one Entomb in time (it is possible, however). This is against where Lion's Eye Diamond lets you explode all over an opponent who keeps a mediocre to slightly above average hand (with a potential mulligan): you have the ability to just simply outrace them before they can do anything relevant. Your best bet is to try and mulligan into something worthwhile and try to race it as best as you can.

Your second game should always be a "test" game so you can get a better feel as what sort of hate your opponent is running. This is where identifying applicable hate cards becomes incredibly important, like assuming an opponent would be running Leyline in a Mono Black deck. I am not so sure Chain of Vapor is any good in the sideboard anymore, as the deck needs definitive answers to mitigate more widespread problems like Leyline of the Void and other artifact/enchantment-based hate. Chain of Vapor is fine, but it only really shores up the Reanimator match, which is a realtively narrow answer as you can just simply run graveyard hate instead.

Chain of Vapor is not a definitive solution to more widespread hate cards, but that's a matter of taste I suppose.

Anusien
04-04-2012, 11:34 AM
I find this to be false, as you can certainly keep Faithless Looting as your only discard outlet in your opening hand, not to mention that it also allows you to draw 2 extra cards that are likely to be additional enablers. In fact, the opposite is true because Faithless Looting is able to cover two of the four types of cards (Land, Discarder, Draw, Dredger) that you want to see in your opening hand: the range of "keepable" hands is superior with Faithless Looting than Tireless Tribe.
Keeping mono-Faithless Looting is an insane mistake.

jares
04-04-2012, 12:56 PM
Keeping mono-Faithless Looting is an insane mistake.
I definitely agree with your statement if what you meant by "mono-Faithless Looting" is that "Faithless Looting is the only enabler in your hand".

If you want to state your opinion that </whateverScenario> is an "insane mistake" (without sharing your basis for it), then I will respect your opinion.

-jares

lolosoon
04-04-2012, 01:39 PM
Keeping mono-Faithless Looting is an insane mistake.
Lion's Eye Diamond disagrees...

...

that, or you're counting LED as another enabler.
(well, it is, but such an horrendous one)

jares
04-04-2012, 02:24 PM
Lion's Eye Diamond disagrees...

...

that, or you're counting LED as another enabler.
(well, it is, but such an horrendous one)
I believe that LED is also essentially an enabler, though it's highly dependent on Faithless Looting on being able to behave like one.

Cheers,
jares

Anusien
04-04-2012, 02:27 PM
I would not keep "Land, Dredger, Faithless Looting, 4 cards that only are useful in your graveyard."
I might keep "LED, Dredger, Faithless Looting, 4 cards that are only useful in your graveyard."

I wouldn't really keep the first hand even if I had a Tireless Tribe instead of Faithless Looting, but I think it's a better keep.

jares
04-04-2012, 02:50 PM
I would not keep "Land, Dredger, Faithless Looting, 4 cards that only are useful in your graveyard."
I might keep "LED, Dredger, Faithless Looting, 4 cards that are only useful in your graveyard."

I wouldn't really keep the first hand even if I had a Tireless Tribe instead of Faithless Looting, but I think it's a better keep.
I probably wouldn't keep the first one, regardless of whether or not Tireless Tribe or Faithless Looting is in the designated slot; a lot also depends on the match-up I'm against.

Regards,
jares

HokusSchmokus
04-04-2012, 03:11 PM
On a side note, who is going to attend BoM next month? Maybe it would be nice to do sth like a meet-up. I have the feeling that only the usual suspects are there though:/

joemauer
04-04-2012, 03:27 PM
I would not keep "Land, Dredger, Faithless Looting, 4 cards that only are useful in your graveyard."


Depending on the match up and if I am on the play or draw would determine if I keep this hand.

For instance, being on the draw against a slower controlish deck makes this hand sound great.

HokusSchmokus
04-04-2012, 04:14 PM
So after failing REALLY hard at the BoM trial and playing like shit the entire time (also getting a bit tilted after R1G1 deck registration error-> only 3 looting, I had to play 1 Island main) but still having fun with the list(GP Flayer list -1 Citadel +1 Cabal Therapy)
I tested the shit out of the list the days after.
Here's what I came up with so far( I opted for a kind of hybrid between quadlaser and flayer)
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3-4 Cephalid Coliseum
1-0 Tarnished Citadel
3 Putrid Imp
3 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
1 Schinder der Hassgebundenen
3 Dread Return
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave- Troll
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

So while I am quite satisfied on the Maindeck, I struggle with my Sideboard.
So far it's.
4 Nature's Claim
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Memory's Journey
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Elesh Norn, Great Genocide
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
The main problem I have is now, that I have Elesh, I don't really need the Leylines anymore. Firestorms are better against almost every deck, and also do quite the damage in the mirror. But around here we also got some Reanimator players left and really a lot of Dredge players.
What do you guys think?

Ps: also, before there are questions about it: No, I won't play Chain of Vapor in favour of Nature's Claim, you don't need more then 1 Grudge, 1 Journey, and 4 Cabal Therepy maindeck is the only sane thing to do, EXSPECIALLY if you only wanna see 3 each game.

Edit: Also, I almost completed making my deck all german! yay me!

jares
04-04-2012, 05:39 PM
The main problem I have is now, that I have Elesh, I don't really need the Leylines anymore. Firestorms are better against almost every deck, and also do quite the damage in the mirror. But around here we also got some Reanimator players left and really a lot of Dredge players.
What do you guys think?

Ps: also, before there are questions about it: No, I won't play Chain of Vapor in favour of Nature's Claim, you don't need more then 1 Grudge, 1 Journey, and 4 Cabal Therepy maindeck is the only sane thing to do, EXSPECIALLY if you only wanna see 3 each game.

Edit: Also, I almost completed making my deck all german! yay me!
I have a few inquiries/suggestions regarding your list:

Maybe Purify the Grave over Memory's Journey?
Maybe Faerie Macabre over Leyline of the Void to favor the Reanimator match-up a bit (given that you're already packing Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite)?
May I ask about why you strongly prefer Nature's Claim over Chain of Vapor even though you have a lot of Reanimators going around? Maybe a 2-2 split might be a good balance?
Will Ray of Revelation and Iona, Shield of Emeria be absolutely necessary?

Kind Regards,
jares

Michael Keller
04-04-2012, 05:42 PM
<3 one Ray. Remember, it gives you inevitability and takes pressure off your mulligans if you can dredge into it.

HokusSchmokus
04-04-2012, 05:56 PM
I have a few inquiries/suggestions regarding your list:

Maybe Purify the Grave over Memory's Journey?
Maybe Faerie Macabre over Leyline of the Void to favor the Reanimator match-up a bit (given that you're already packing Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite)?
May I ask about why you strongly prefer Nature's Claim over Chain of Vapor even though you have a lot of Reanimators going around? Maybe a 2-2 split might be a good balance?
Will Ray of Revelation and Iona, Shield of Emeria be absolutely necessary?

Kind Regards,
jares

-Purify or Journey doesn't really make a difference imo. You generally don't want to cast more than 1 since you are losing anyways if you have to and both can get countered. Journey's effect is way better than Coffin Purge/ Purify and the cmc seldom is an issue because most people leave out snares after boarding. I chose Journey because it is nice to EOT shuffle in 3 Moebas

- I thought about Macabre, too. It would open a slot for the 15th land in my board, which is nice, but I don't think the effect is good enough. You can't tutor for it, you have to have it in your hand and that makes it bad for the Reanimator Matchup imo. They still pack Thoughtseize and Show and Tell, and Macabres in the hand make LED a lot worse. And you need that LED in the Reanimator Matchup imo. LotV is flat put better in this matchup(as in any other matchup where I bring in GY hate) I don't understand your point with Elesh, though, Legend ruling the opponent's Elesh can't be the plan.

- Chain of Vapor is the most overrated card in Dredge EVER. It doesn't solve anything except a Leyline, is still weak to countermagic and the tricks you can pull of with it to save Ichorids/Bridges are not worthwhile imo. I like my problematic permanents to be destroyed, not just bounced. In a heavy Reanimator meta maybe. Just maybe.Otherwise, having to go off and kill right away before the card you bounced comes back down is not the way I wanna play, exspecially with the hate as it is.

-Ray and Iona. To be fair, Iona is the spot I have been cutting back and forth in favor of land numer 15. Still, it is nice that the card autowins against Elves, High Tide and Burn. That is about all the card autowins against, though, so I am not quite sure if it is worthwhile.
As to Ray, it is an out to enchantments you don't have to draw, and since we are playing Legacy, I would never leave the house without it. I'd rather cut the last Grudge. I just hate losing to moat.

Edit: BTW, boarding with the Flayerlists is a bitch.

jares
04-04-2012, 06:11 PM
I don't understand your point with Elesh, though, Legend ruling the opponent's Elesh can't be the plan.

This isn't too important. I was just thinking that switching from Leyline of the Void to Faerie Macabre lessens the effectiveness of your hate against the mirror, and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is there to bridge the gap.

Noted on all other points. I'm a bit surprised that I've never felt the need to run Ray of Revelation, though that might just be a meta thing (Ancient Grudge is much more relevant in my meta amidst the various artifacts that are running around in both the main deck and sideboard).

Cheers,
jares

HokusSchmokus
04-04-2012, 06:21 PM
There are relevant artifacts?Oo

jares
04-04-2012, 06:47 PM
There are relevant artifacts?Oo
Yes, a few.

Regards,
jares

HokusSchmokus
04-04-2012, 06:50 PM
Yes, a few.

Regards,
jares

I don't know any aside from Batterskull.
Even if my meta was full of stoneblade packing relics, I think 2 or 3 maximum Grudges is more than enough to deal with anything.Nature's Claim does the job quite good tho.

Felidae
04-04-2012, 06:54 PM
Short report for my local tourney today ( 20 player):

R1: UB Snapcaster Control
G1. I'm on the play and lead with City, LED, Study, resp crack LED, Loothing, dumping a good chunk of my deck in the yard and then proceed to steamroll him with Therapy.

Side: ( I put him on Esper Blade, as I saw Snapcaster, Fetchlands, Brainstorm and Inquisition in his hand) -1 Thug, -1 Study +2 Coffin Purge

G2: He opens with a Leyline, doh! At least I was able to take a look at his deck now and there it turned out that he wasn't on Esper Blade but on a UB Snapcaster homebrew.

Side: +4 Natures Claim +1 Tarnish Citadell +1 Study -4 LED, -1 Looting, -1 Breakthrough

G3: We both have to mulligan down to 5 cards and due to him missing his Leyline in those 5 cards I'm once again able to stemroll him with a turn 2 Breakthrough.

R2: Canadian Thresh

G1: I start with a City, LED ( he forces) and Study, dumping Troll and Imp in my yard. On my 2nd turn I'm able to resolve a Looting and then proceed to slowly kill him via Ichorids and zombie token.

Side: +2 Coffin Purge, -1 Study -1 Thug

G2: He leads with a Fetchland, while I start by discarding a Troll. He then goes for a turn 2 Goyf, while I go for City, LED, Breakthrough ( force), go. He attacks once and drops a Delver. On my 3rd turn I play my 2nd Land and go for Looting, crack LED, more Loothing into enough buisness to kill him.

R3: Pox

G1: He does nothing relevant ( well his deck doesn'T have any relevant spell G1 against us :S) and dies on turn 3.

Side: ( I got to peek at his sideboard during round 1, so I knew that he was playing 3 Cages and 2 Crypts)

-4 LED , 1 Thug, -1 Looting +2 Grudge, +2 Chewer +1 Claim +1 Citadell

G2: He starts with an Inquisition, taking away my Looting, while I lead with a Coliseum and a Study, dumping Imp and Ichorid. He then goes for another Inquisiotn, taking my Breakthrough, wastes my Coliseum and then he drops a Crypt. I dredge once, find another Imp, a Bridge and a Thug, sweet. On his turn he simply goes for land, go. In my upkeep I return an Ichorid, he ponders for a second but then he let it resolve. I go for my normal draw ( keeping the Imp as fooder for the Ichorid, in order to force him to crack his Crypt), swing for 3 and then he crpyts me in response on my Bridge trigger. On his turn he plays a Lilliana, ponders for a bit and then passes the turn without using her. I draw a Coliseum, look at the Putrid Imp in my hand and then at the Urborg on my opponents side, smile and slam the PImp on the table, gotta love my basic Swamp. On his turn he goes for a Smallpox, while I discard and Imp and Bridge, forcing him do use Lillianas 2nd ability in order to blow up the token.
The rest of the game was very onesided, as I found all the good stuff and he kept on drawing useless shit ( but then again thats Pox for you).

R4: Combo Elves

G1: He leads with a Bichelor Ranger and I lead with a City, LED, 2x Looting, 2 Therapies ( taking away his Glimse and his Ooze) and a bunch of zombies...

Side:
-4 LED +1 Citadell +3 Firestorm

G2: On his 2nd turn I blow up his entire board with Firestorm, however I fail to find an Ichorid or a Moeba in my next 4 turns while was able to reestablish his board via Symbiot and 2 Elvish Visionary.

Side: +4 LED -1 Citadell -3 Firestorm

G3: I mulligan down to 4, fail to find a dredger with my Looting and die on turn 2.

KevinTrudeau
04-04-2012, 07:18 PM
Main concern with Reanimator is that they know I play Chain of Vapor so they keep bringing back Inkwell Leviathan instead of Elesh Norn, and CoV suddenly becomes useless.

CoV is not useless in the scenario you're describing, as its mere presence caused an opponent to misplay by reanimating an irrelevant 7/11 (it's marginally effective in tandem with two Extirpate effects, but what isn't?) instead of a card Dredge can't actually beat if it sticks.

I would definitely play LED in the metagame you're describing.

Michael Keller
04-05-2012, 03:09 AM
A small report from the local event here at Curio Cavern in Northern Virginia; wound up cleaning house with twenty-three players (23) going a perfect 4-0.

Round One versus James (w/ B/w Tokens).

Game One: James mulligans down to six cards, while I keep my starting seven. He plays a fetch and passes. I draw naturally into an LED, play City of Brass into Faithless Looting, hold priority cracking LED and proceed to go ballistic. He scoops after seeing two Narcomoeba's, Therapies, four Bridges, and two Ichorids.

Game Two: James takes the play again and mulligans down to six again. I keep my hand. James plays a fetch and passes. I drop two LED's, a Cephalid Coliseum, and Breakthrough with a Troll and Imp in the graveyard with RRR floating - with the other LED chilling for the kill-shot. That was all she wrote.

[2-0-0] 1-0.

Round Two versus Tim (w/ Affinity).

Game One: Tim is a pretty cool guy and wins the roll. He starts off relatively slow, dropping a Pest and Memnite. I keep a loose hand with LED, lands and some dredgers. I hope to draw into a draw spell, but such was not the case. I discard Troll and hope to hit some business. I don't really, and by the time Tim shows lethal on board I have to take a natural draw and hope to nail any draw spell in my deck (counting Coliseum). No dice, and it's on to the second game.

Game Two: I actually decide I don't even care to bring in Firestorms here. I just wanted to see if it really mattered in the end, which it wound up not. I am really more and more not wanting to board out LED's, so I keep them in. I proceed to completely blow Tim out on my turn two by accruing eighteen Zombies, in addition to keeping mana up for a flashed back Ancient Grudge on his Plating. That sealed the deal.

Game Three: Exactly the same. Tim goes with a risky keep on a mull to six of Mox Opal and Ornithopter, precariously with no lands. I proceed to do the same thing I did in game two on my turn three this time, but not before Tim put up a valiant effort plucking some land and getting business going.

One thing to note, him forgetting Ravager being good against Bridge from Below assisted in the game three win, too. That wouldn't have been entirely relevant as I had Grudge early anyhow.

[4-1-0] 2-0.

Round Three versus Jeff (w/ Team America Homebrew).

Game One: Jeff is on the play and drops a Ponder. I play a land and cast Careful Study, binning two trolls. Jeff takes his turn and drops Bob. I go to my turn, dredge for six, and proceed to cast Breakthrough at x=0. I blow the game open, crucify his hand, and as I'm going off Jeff surveys my graveyard and scoops.

Game Two: I kind of worked around this match keeping my LED's in, and just brought in Grudges for whatever other hate he might have aside from Surgical - which I know he's on as I've seen his board in action before in addition to running Cunning Wishes to get them in a pinch. At any rate, I put myself in a position where I have two Bridges in the graveyard, a Dread Return, an Iona, two Zombies and a Narcomoeba in play. I know Jeff has been bricking on lands with his Bob in play, as I had tokens made by flashing back a Therapy - sacrificing Thug getting tokens and putting Narcomoeba back on top of my deck.

I keep a tally of his hand, which is now down to a mystery card. I go for Dread Return on Iona. He drew the Surgical for turn, and it saved him not only the game but turned the tide in his favor as he stabilized and won the game on the back of Delver(s) and massive card advantage from an unanswered Bob.

Game Three: I say fuck it and I'm all in here. Jeff mulligans to six, and I keep a disgusting hand of Coliseum, City, Study, Troll, Therapy, Imp, Looting. I draw an LED for turn and Jeff has nothing. I play it safe and hard-cast Therapy, naming "Surgical Extraction." It hits and I bin one (seeing nothing else relevant) and you can guess what happened from there with a hand like that.

[6-2-0] 3-0.

Round Four versus Dan Signorini [nitewolf] (w/ Modified EsperBlade).

Game One: Dan and I are currently the only unbeaten players and decide to play it out for the prize. We roll it up and Dan wins and elects to play first - no mulligans here. He leads off with a land and Ponder. I cast Faithless Looting, drawing Lion's Eye Diamond and binning some dredgers. Dan has the Force for a Breakthrough that followed, but the Looting resolved. After a few Ichorids were sent farming and Dan stuck a Stoneforge, I go crazy with a Breakthrough and win the game shortly thereafter on the back of multiple tokens just overwhelming him.

Game Two: This one was rather anti-climactic, as I know Dan's sideboard is heavily equipped and prepared to handle Dredge. Dan decides to play, and keeps his hand. He plays a land and passes. I drop a City of Brass and play a Putrid Imp, which eats a Force of Will. Dan Wastes my City, and passes. I drop a Cephalid Coliseum and play Careful Study with LED. It resolves, and I bin some dredgers and make some mana. It all resolves, and Dan has no responses. I dredge away and wind up hitting a Looting and some gas. I proceed to nuke his hand and hit Engineered Explosives, leaving him with nothing but lands. I then Dread Return a 14/14 Troll with a Zombie and Narcomoeba by its side - in addition to three Ichorids in the graveyard.

It proved to be too much as Dan bricked on his draw and I took the match home.

[8-2-0] 4-0.

The only changes I made to my main list was experimenting running a third Ichorid over the Darkblast main. It wound up being really decent and gave me fuel when I needed it. Darkblast is still good in a Maverick-infested environment, which this is not. I kept the LED's in for just about every match, as I just keep wanting it more and more all the time. Unless my opponent is on Leyline, I am generally keeping them in.

Aside from that, Coffin Purge has been kind of meh, but I feel like my list is solid enough and I'm comfortable enough with it where the lack of its use has been relatively moot up until this point - surprisingly the same with Firestorm. Firestorm is a card you use against Aggro, but you crush that anyhow so I'm really on the fence about it. LED is just so fast against the decks where it would be necessary that one has to wonder if the utility is worth stunting your speed.

At any rate, good showing.

jares
04-05-2012, 09:51 AM
I don't know any aside from Batterskull.
Even if my meta was full of stoneblade packing relics, I think 2 or 3 maximum Grudges is more than enough to deal with anything.Nature's Claim does the job quite good tho.
Nature's Claim has also always done its job well for me, which is why I'm also rarely happy about my Ancient Grudges - I would probably just run [1x] too, much like how you run just [1x] Ray of Revelation.

Cheers,
jares

HokusSchmokus
04-05-2012, 09:55 AM
1 is surely enough, I run the same amount.

I will probably not cut leylines,Firestorm lacks synergy with LED which I feel I need g2 against Maverick

jares
04-05-2012, 11:16 AM
Aside from that, Coffin Purge has been kind of meh, but I feel like my list is solid enough and I'm comfortable enough with it where the lack of its use has been relatively moot up until this point.
I have been considering running a singleton Coffin Purge in my sideboard after observing the sideboards that have been going around, simply so that I could add to the cards that will allow my graveyard to give me access to my sideboard during the game. I'm still unconvinced of whether or not I really want it at this point, but I continue to observe other people's experiences so that these could help me with mine.

I have also been playing around with Offalsnout, and have found that it works best against the mirror, as outlined below:

It's able to remove your opponents Bridges at instant speed.
It's able to trigger your own bridges at instant speed.
It removes a targeted card in a graveyard, which seems to work best in response to Dread Return.
Other stuff:

It's able to feed Ichorid
It's inferior to Faerie Macabre because it removes one less card, and can be countered.
It's inferior to Coffin Purge because you can't cast it from the graveyard.


Just adding some notes that might be useful.

Cheers,
jares

K1w1
04-05-2012, 12:02 PM
Round Two versus Tim (w/ Affinity).

Game One: Tim is a pretty cool guy and wins the roll. He starts off relatively slow, dropping a Pest and Memnite. I keep a loose hand with LED, lands and some dredgers. I hope to draw into a draw spell, but such was not the case. I discard Troll and hope to hit some business. I don't really, and by the time Tim shows lethal on board I have to take a natural draw and hope to nail any draw spell in my deck (counting Coliseum). No dice, and it's on to the second game.


Well done with 4-0!

Did you have to take a natural draw because you had no dredgers in your graveyard or did you try to find drawspells?

You had a LED. If you had found a looting, maybe you had won.
Or not?

Michael Keller
04-05-2012, 12:54 PM
There were two instances I had my hand on the top of my library fully prepared to draw a card to bail me out of tight scenarios. I decided to dredge instead in those instances, and while I won the games in question, the top card off each dredge was, in fact, a draw spell. I always made sure I had a dredger in the yard whether it was by mulliganing appropriately or draw-discarding. Hell, I even Therapied myself one time - binning a Troll and casting a draw spell.

People need to not be afraid to take draws based on the summation of what has already been dredged and drawn from the inception of said game. You're actually apt to hit business more often than you think.

Again, the deck is highly situational, but can explode at a moment's notice.

Izor
04-05-2012, 02:57 PM
Congratz on the finish Hollywood!


I agree that Coffin Purge/whatever Extraction hate people play are somewhat underwhelming and I more often than not just fare better ignoring such hate.

I also like the 3rd Ichorid back in the main, that's the way to go. Darkblast seems very good on paper but I gave up running it because it was mostly disappointing.



I would be happy to play a 4 round tournament and see only 2 Surgicals througout the whole tournament. The 4 round event I played lately rewarded me with 2 Extirpate, 2 Surgical and 1 Tormods. The only opponent who had nothing was Storm, which lucksacked me 2-0 :/

GoldenCid
04-05-2012, 03:17 PM
Maybe a little late on the suggestion but Hollywood, could you write the sideboarding plan for the different match ups as a complement for the primer?

jares
04-05-2012, 03:27 PM
I agree that Coffin Purge/whatever Extraction hate people play are somewhat underwhelming and I more often than not just fare better ignoring such hate.

I also like the 3rd Ichorid back in the main, that's the way to go. Darkblast seems very good on paper but I gave up running it because it was mostly disappointing.

I have been doing the same against Surgical Extraction etc., and have been rewarded with some hard-earned wins so far.

Regarding Darkblast, it seems that people have had mixed results about it, though at this point I feel that having an extra Dredger (13th?) in the sideboard would most certainly help in the games where things aren't too favorable.

Cheers,
jares

joemauer
04-05-2012, 03:36 PM
Maybe a little late on the suggestion but Hollywood, could you write the sideboarding plan for the different match ups as a complement for the primer?

Dredge has no hard and fast rules when it comes to sideboarding. It is a case by case situation. Furthermore it is very subjective.

I think it ignited a two page argument on the last dredge thread when someone asked about sideboarding for merfolk.

Other combo decks have very obvious SBing plans. Storm needs to bring in disruption/counterspells against blue decks and bounce against maverick. With dredge, you never have any idea what kinda of hate(or how much) the top decks to beat are going to bring against you because despite the maindecks being similar their SBs vary dramatically.

Personally my preferred sideboarding is some number of breakthroughs and/or dread return and it's target(s). Or I will do the shave technique: -1 thug/Pimp/ichorid.

jares
04-05-2012, 03:46 PM
Or I will do the shave technique: -1 thug/Pimp/ichorid.
I like that, the "Shave Tech". :laugh:

Game 2 is usually the best time to do the Shave Tech, given that you don't have certainty over what you'll be going against. I'm also careful about needlessly diluting the deck, as being "over-prepared" would usually do you more harm than good.

Cheers,
jares

iPhael
04-05-2012, 08:42 PM
So, it's spoiler season again, and yet again we get a new toy right off the bat. This time in the form of an 8/8 Flying Vigilant Indestructible Angel. Oh, and she makes your Zombies invulnerable as well. I know it's slightly counter-intuitive to have perma-Thugs and such, and that Flayer/FKZ is still a faster kill, but I'm having a hard time thinking of how you could lose if she resolves. Sure there's some bounce and burn to the dome to worry about, but seriously now, this is pretty ridiculous.

Clicky for Pic (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=129642&stc=1&d=1333415410)

jares
04-05-2012, 09:10 PM
So, it's spoiler season again, and yet again we get a new toy right off the bat. This time in the form of an 8/8 Flying Vigilant Indestructible Angel. Oh, and she makes your Zombies invulnerable as well. I know it's slightly counter-intuitive to have perma-Thugs and such, and that Flayer/FKZ is still a faster kill, but I'm having a hard time thinking of how you could lose if she resolves. Sure there's some bounce and burn to the dome to worry about, but seriously now, this is pretty ridiculous.

Clicky for Pic (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=129642&stc=1&d=1333415410)
I feel that the Dread Return targets that we already have contribute more to Dredge's game plan when compared to a creature that, while visibly imposing, is really just a big body that's difficult to get rid of - and I believe that we already have that in Golgari Grave-Troll.

Even Reanimator might not even use this card at all.

Regards,
jares

joemauer
04-06-2012, 12:34 AM
So, it's spoiler season again, and yet again we get a new toy right off the bat. This time in the form of an 8/8 Flying Vigilant Indestructible Angel. Oh, and she makes your Zombies invulnerable as well. I know it's slightly counter-intuitive to have perma-Thugs and such, and that Flayer/FKZ is still a faster kill, but I'm having a hard time thinking of how you could lose if she resolves. Sure there's some bounce and burn to the dome to worry about, but seriously now, this is pretty ridiculous.


Think harder. There is a common one mana spell played in a lot of decks that removes creatures from the game for the small trade off of life gain.

TheKingslayer
04-06-2012, 12:53 AM
Think harder. There is a common one mana spell played in a lot of decks that removes creatures from the game for the small trade off of life gain.

I wish that I could just ominously like posts(like on facebook.)

HokusSchmokus
04-06-2012, 05:03 AM
I feel that the Dread Return targets that we already have contribute more to Dredge's game plan when compared to a creature that, while visibly imposing, is really just a big body that's difficult to get rid of - and I believe that we already have that in Golgari Grave-Troll.

Even Reanimator might not even use this card at all.

Regards,
jares
What he really meant is the Angel sucks major ass for every competitive deck. Kitchen Table stuff.

chibi
04-06-2012, 05:37 AM
Hi I'm new to legacy. I just shifted from standard because I recently completed my dream deck lol. Anyway, I've already played dredge in a couple of tourneys (which were my first tourneys btw) and went well (3-0, 2-1) for a newcomer. I'm starting to get hooked with the format and I'm preparing for a big tournament here.

Here's my list:

lands: 13
4 cephalid coliseum
4 city of brass
4 gemstone mine
1 undiscovered paradise

creatures: 22
4 putrid imp
4 narcomoeba
4 golgari grave troll
4 stinkweed imp
3 golgari thug
2 ichorid
1 flayer of the hatebound

spells: 25
4 lion's eye diamond
4 faithless looting
4 careful study
4 bridge from below
3 cabal therapy
3 breakthrough
3 dread return

sideboard:
2 firestorm
1 ancient grudge
3 nature's claim
3 faerie macabre
1 cabal therapy
2 ichorid
1 iona, shield of emeria
1 angel of despair
1 elesh norn grand cenobite

I'm currently working on a generic sideboard since I really don't know what the meta is. :P Can you help me tweak this? Also I'm preparing the sideboard against maverick so any sideboard tips for that matchup?

Thanks!

-smallguy (chibi)

HokusSchmokus
04-06-2012, 06:06 AM
hi i'm new to legacy. just shifted from standard because i recently completed my dream deck lol. anyway, i've already played dredge in a couple of tourneys (which were my first tourneys btw) and went well (3-0, 2-1) for a newcomer. i'm starting to get hooked to the format and i'm preparing for a big local tournament here.

here's my list:

lands: 13
4 cephalid coliseum
4 city of brass
4 gemstone mine
1 undiscovered paradise

creatures: 22
4 putrid imp
4 narcomoeba
4 golgari grave troll
4 stinkweed imp
3 golgari thug
2 ichorid
1 flayer of the hatebound

spells: 25
4 lion's eye diamond
4 faithless looting
4 careful study
4 bridge from below
3 cabal therapy
3 breakthrough
3 dread return

sideboard:
2 firestorm
1 ancient grudge
3 nature's claim
3 faerie macabre
1 cabal therapy
2 ichorid
1 iona, shield of emeria
1 angel of despair
1 elesh norn grand cenobite

i'm currently working on a generic sideboard since i really don't know what the meta is. :P can you help me tweak this? also i'm preparing the sideboard against maverick so any sideboard tips for that matchup?

thanks!

-smallguy (chibi)

Hi!
First things first, the mods and users in this forum value punctuation relatively high, you might want to check out the forum rules. Also check out the hyperlink function: Ichorid[/cards.] without the . = [cards]Ichorid, you just have to put [cards] at the beginning and [/cards.] without the . at the end of your decklist e.g.
Regarding your list:
I strongly recommend the 4th Therapy maindeck. I would also use a third Ichorid, but that's more a matter of taste( Though having 3 Ichorids maindeck makes room in the sideboard since you don't have to run 1-2 Ichorids in your board anymore)I would cut a Land+x for it if you want to make this change, it's better to test it first ofc.

Regarding your board:
2 Firestorm and 3 Nature's Claims do almost nothing, I'm sorry. Exspecially Nature's Claim, you really cannot afford not to have it if your opponent slams a Leyline or such things, so a 4th Claim might be good.
2 Firestorms is a bit random, too I think, also Firestorm is a bit worse in LED builds, since you don't want to board them out against Maverick, still you want to bring in Firestorms and seriously, having a hand of Firestorm, LED,LED, Thug, Troll, Land, Looting or so makes Firestorm less good. Still it CAN be good,though.

I'm curious why you chose to run Faerie Macabre in your board, care to elaborate?

Final Fortune
04-06-2012, 06:19 AM
I have 0 problems with Firestorm and LED post-board, you guys are either doing something wrong or you aren't recognizing when the disynergy doesn't matter because you've already won the game.

Firestorm is ridiculous, play it.

chibi
04-06-2012, 06:28 AM
Hi!
First things first, the mods and users in this forum value punctuation relatively high, you might want to check out the forum rules. Also check out the hyperlink function: Ichorid[/cards.] without the . = [cards]Ichorid, you just have to put [cards] at the beginning and [/cards.] without the . at the end of your decklist e.g.
Regarding your list:
I strongly recommend the 4th Therapy maindeck. I would also use a third Ichorid, but that's more a matter of taste( Though having 3 Ichorids maindeck makes room in the sideboard since you don't have to run 1-2 Ichorids in your board anymore)I would cut a Land+x for it if you want to make this change, it's better to test it first ofc.

Regarding your board:
2 Firestorm and 3 Nature's Claims do almost nothing, I'm sorry. Exspecially Nature's Claim, you really cannot afford not to have it if your opponent slams a Leyline or such things, so a 4th Claim might be good.
2 Firestorms is a bit random, too I think, also Firestorm is a bit worse in LED builds, since you don't want to board them out against Maverick, still you want to bring in Firestorms and seriously, having a hand of Firestorm, LED,LED, Thug, Troll, Land, Looting or so makes Firestorm less good. Still it CAN be good,though.

I'm curious why you chose to run Faerie Macabre in your board, care to elaborate?


Thanks for the quick feedback!

About the 4th therapy maindeck, I think with this build's explosiveness, I can win fast enough without having to use therapy much. As for the 3rd ichorid, well same reason for not having the 4th therapy maindeck. I board the extra therapy and ichorids in matchups where I think I should win via beatdown than combo (with the chance of having to combo of course).

As for the sideboard, I've been thinking about firestorm too. I think it's good against maverick and delver. I'll test it out. For now, I have just been reading about its effectiveness in LED dredge sideboards.


I have 0 problems with Firestorm and LED post-board, you guys are either doing something wrong or you aren't recognizing when the disynergy doesn't matter because you've already won the game.

Firestorm is ridiculous, play it. This.

Faerie macabre is for reanimator and mirror match not to mention decks that run snapcaster mage. This was supposed to be Leyline of the Void but after some time I realized that I don't want it in my sideboard anymore. It's already a dead card if don't have it in my opening hand. Having to mulligan for it is not worth it. I'd rather mulligan for a keepable hand that could win.

And as for my previous post, I'll edit it. Thanks for the heads up! :)

HokusSchmokus
04-06-2012, 06:53 AM
I have 0 problems with Firestorm and LED post-board, you guys are either doing something wrong or you aren't recognizing when the disynergy doesn't matter because you've already won the game.

Firestorm is ridiculous, play it.

That's exactly what I mean. I have more "oh, guess I won the game" situations than "ha, Firestorm got ya" situations.

chibi
04-06-2012, 07:25 AM
So, should I up the firestorm count? How about faerie macabre? Do I take them out?

HokusSchmokus
04-06-2012, 07:31 AM
Macabre is fine if you face a heavy dredge and Reanimator meta. I guess it's quite good against stoneblade stuff too, since you can respond to Extraction with an uncounterable effect, but again there is a huge antisynergy with LED, which you might take out though, I guess. It's certainly worth considering running it though.

Yes, if you want to run Firestorm, I would certainly run 4.

chibi
04-06-2012, 07:48 AM
Macabre is fine if you face a heavy dredge and Reanimator meta. I guess it's quite good against stoneblade stuff too, since you can respond to Extraction with an uncounterable effect, but again there is a huge antisynergy with LED, which you might take out though, I guess. It's certainly worth considering running it though.

Yes, if you want to run Firestorm, I would certainly run 4.

I see. Thanks so much for the thoughts! I'm still waiting for Hollywood or Klazam and other experienced dredge players for their thoughts and ideas. I will try and test the firestorm count to 3 and cut one macabre. Also, I don't know if I should be running chain of vapor instead of nature's claim.

Michael Keller
04-06-2012, 10:52 AM
Firestorm is a card as I had previously mentioned that is really only necessary against super-mega-fast aggro decks. It's both necessary and unnecessary in that you can overwhelm an opponent ridiculously fast before they even start assembling creatures and it looks attractive for its ability.

It's honestly starting to collect dust in my board, but that doesn't mean it's "bad."

jares
04-06-2012, 10:59 AM
I see. Thanks so much for the thoughts! I'm still waiting for Hollywood or Klazam and other experienced dredge players for their thoughts and ideas. I will try and test the firestorm count to 3 and cut one macabre. Also, I don't know if I should be running chain of vapor instead of nature's claim.
I've also been using Faerie Macabre in my sideboard, and I've found it to be the best utility card to address Reanimator, so I would suggest running the full set if you're concerned with Reanimator in your meta. I also run [3x] Firestorm in my sideboard, and I would certainly go up to a full set if I had the room for it - for now, [3x] seems like a good balance. Having said that, I would suggest that you consider shaving off on the Dread Return targets - run only the ones that are absolutely necessary in your meta.

Good luck. :smile:

Kind Regards,
jares

igri_is_a_bk
04-06-2012, 12:21 PM
I don't see this mentioned very often, but, besides aggro, Firestorm is a strong card to bring in against ANT/TES. If you read those threads at all, they are nervous about a potenial Firestorm ruining their AdN plan. As a 3-of in my board, it conveniently matches the number of Ichorids I want to side out against combo. Basically, I'm saying Firestorm is worth the space because it hits more matchups than just the creature ones.

Michael Keller
04-06-2012, 12:59 PM
I don't see this mentioned very often, but, besides aggro, Firestorm is a strong card to bring in against ANT/TES. If you read those threads at all, they are nervous about a potenial Firestorm ruining their AdN plan. As a 3-of in my board, it conveniently matches the number of Ichorids I want to side out against combo. Basically, I'm saying Firestorm is worth the space because it hits more matchups than just the creature ones.

I'm trying to understand the rationale behind this utility. Your Ad Nauseam opponent will rarely, if ever, have a creature on the table. Additionally, if you have a creature on the table, it is representing a clock, which is exactly what you need in this match-up. So in order to legitimately be able to cast Firestorm and do at least four damage to an opponent - and more than likely yourself in the process - you will require two creatures in play at minimum.

Now, if you're looking to Firestorm for only three (which seems relatively useless when you can just out-combo them and tear their hand apart in the process), you're both taking three damage and your creature is eating it in the process.

That seems terrible. Against Storm, I sideboard like this:

-1 Careful Study
-1 Sun Titan
-1 Ichorid

+1 Breakthrough
+1 Cabal Therapy
+1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

You don't care to hit their artifact-based mana sources, because all it does is dilute you from exploding on them first. Also, while Sun Titan has its merits in this match-up, it is not as good as Iona as after a well-timed Therapy, the card is generally game over if it hits the table. And by taking out the Study and adding the Breakthrough, you gain a measure of explosiveness that will allow you to chain deep and hit a Narcomoeba or two and perhaps strip their hand of anything relevant in the process with a full set of Therapies.

The only reason you'd cut the third Ichorid is because all you're seeking is a Dread Return on the back of a few Zombies and some Therapies to protect you. It's very elementary from there.

igri_is_a_bk
04-06-2012, 01:29 PM
I don't play the GP list. I play 4 Breakthrough and 4 Therapy main, so no, I don't sideboard like that. Anyways, the combination of us attacking, if only for 2 a turn, and Firestorm, plus their fetches and City taps do add up to the point that you'll make them fizzle on AdN. Firestorm doesn't have to be the killing blow. I know it works from experience. You can try it or not.

I truly can't understand how the mentality of dredge players went from "Dread Return is a liability and casting it is the least likely event to happen" to "I want to cast two DR in the same turn." I'm just going to say it because I tried it and hated it: Flayer sucks. It's a cool way to finish the game, but is completely unnecessary - just like most DR-targets.

Michael Keller
04-06-2012, 01:52 PM
I don't play the GP list. I play 4 Breakthrough and 4 Therapy main, so no, I don't sideboard like that. Anyways, the combination of us attacking, if only for 2 a turn, and Firestorm, plus their fetches and City taps do add up to the point that you'll make them fizzle on AdN. Firestorm doesn't have to be the killing blow. I know it works from experience. You can try it or not.

I don't play the GP list either, I play my own list and use my own strategy. I have considered it - and it's an awful approach. It might have worked for you once or twice in random corner-cases, but the simple fact is that LED Dredge is fast enough to race any Storm deck outright. Firestorm is specifically used to shore up aggressive strategies and not random isolated utility against a deck which could care less about getting Shocked. You care more about stripping their hand and comboing out yourself outright; the least of your worries should be trying to "sandbag" a card like Firestorm when your first and foremost priority should be getting as much business into your graveyard as quickly as possible and cast a draw spell to virtually - or literally - win you the game. Firestorm requires you to basically sit there and say, "Go" (not a tell or anything). That's a terrible approach in LED Dredge - unless you've been forced to mulligan into oblivion.

Firestorm used against Storm is just a bad application, I'm sorry.

By keeping a hand with Firestorm, a land, and that' s about it - you're crippled outright to a Duress or Chant. A good Storm player won't falter to such narrow utility, and will more than likely strip your hand of any prevalence turn one or two - if they don't Chant you first. Additionally, whatever it is that you're cutting to bring those cards in probably is better than Firestorm anyways, so I don't see the relevance here. How many turns are we talking about you passing here, ideally having to have a Firestorm, land, draw spell, dredger, and a few Zombies in play? In a perfect world, perhaps. Not ideally, though. Basically what you're insinuating is that you're using a very narrow strategy to catch the Storm player off guard after they've pinged themselves once or twice using pain-lands into Ad Nauseam.

Here's something you might not have known: I beat Bryant in a Jupiter Games match one time by Soul Spiking him when he least expected it off Ad Nauseam, so I understand where you're coming from (why I ever chose to play that card still baffles me to this day). However, that strategy was really no good and I was basically backed into a corner when it came to my Storm match-up with that particular deck. In LED Dredge, you don't have to worry about narrow shit like that and can just win just as fast yourself.


I truly can't understand how the mentality of dredge players went from "Dread Return is a liability and casting it is the least likely event to happen" to "I want to cast two DR in the same turn." I'm just going to say it because I tried it and hated it: Flayer sucks.

Again, you're generalizing. You're clustering all Dredge players to fit your one ideal. Flayer does not suck, nor do any other relevant Dread Return targets that people decide they want to try. Dredge is strong enough on its own merit that it can win outright game one, but Dread Return targets become important to cement victories and are that much more important games two and potentially three. Believe it or not, putting all the effort into winning a game one isn't as easy as you'd think; Dredge can lose game one under varying circumstances, which is why dedicating an incredibly attractive slot or two can ensure you will not lose the game by passing the turn.


It's a cool way to finish the game...

It's a quick way to finish a game. I don't play it, but I respect its use.


...but is completely unnecessary - just like most DR-targets.

So, you're basically telling me that using a card that can create a massive amount of tokens and bring a creature with special utility - like Iona - into play against something like High Tide is unnecessary?

Yeah...not so much.

Dread Return is - and always was - actually very good in Dredge. The problem people had with it (which is in reference to what you're saying, that people "flipped a switch on the card") is that once Faithless Looting became legal people tried stuffing tight lists together and couldn't find a proper configuration to fit the card in to their deck. The card itself is one of the most important parts to this archetype and helps not only facilitate fast combo-kills, it gives you the option as an alternative to bring in something specialized to cripple other archetypes that can match you in speed or just leave you behind in the race.

This is why when you look at the only successful variations since Faithless Looting has become legal, all of them have used Dread Return in some capacity as a critical means of success. Dread Return is a card that indicates pressure on an opponent. Even if they can by some miracle deal with the target immediately, then they are just going to get busted by a plethora of Zombies or Ichorids. The varied angles of attack are important, something you obviously fail to see in Dread Return's critical application.

igri_is_a_bk
04-06-2012, 02:32 PM
I'm typing from my phone so I'm not being as articulate as I'd like to be. My whole point is that Firestorm is better than Ichorid against TES. It is not my priority to mull to find it, in any way. Firestorm is unquestionably more important for Mav. I know that as well. You may not know this, but I've been playing dredge longer than you, so please be less condescending.

Flayer is fast, but so is FKZ, which requires only one DR and players don't even use him. Flayer isn't even best at what you said he's in there to do.

You're taking these observations a little too personally. I know what DR is for, and use two of them. I use DR-targets in my board for the matches they are applicable because they're game-breaking.

HokusSchmokus
04-06-2012, 02:58 PM
I'm typing from my phone so I'm not being as articulate as I'd like to be. My whole point is that Firestorm is better than Ichorid against TES. It is not my priority to mull to find it, in any way. Firestorm is unquestionably more important for Mav. I know that as well. You may not know this, but I've been playing dredge longer than you, so please be less condescending.

Flayer is fast, but so is FKZ, which requires only one DR and players don't even use him. Flayer isn't even best at what you said he's in there to do.

You're taking these observations a little too personally. I know what DR is for, and use two of them. I use DR-targets in my board for the matches they are applicable because they're game-breaking.
FKZ still needs two bridges in the yard and can be blocked.

igri_is_a_bk
04-06-2012, 03:15 PM
Thanks for that gem. Two Brdges are more likely to be flipped than two DR. I'm not advocating FKZ, because he is bad, just like Flayer.

The amount of nitpicking and arguing of semantics rather than legitimate points is overwhelming in this thread.

Michael Keller
04-06-2012, 03:38 PM
Thanks for that gem. Two Brdges are more likely to be flipped than two DR. I'm not advocating FKZ, because he is bad, just like Flayer.

The amount of nitpicking and arguing of semantics rather than legitimate points is overwhelming in this thread.

I know, right?

It's especially helpful to others when people make baseless opinions with no factual evidence or numbers to support their theories. Cramming your opinions down peoples' throats on card choices and what you think is considered "optimal" with no reasoning - especially using innocuous statements - isn't going to win you points in a discussion, pal.

First off, what does your list look like, and second, what have you done with it successfully to support your claims?

Otherwise, your arguments have little weight on a topic that generally requires input other than "Card X Sucks Because I Said So."

jares
04-06-2012, 03:42 PM
Thanks for that gem. Two Brdges are more likely to be flipped than two DR. I'm not advocating FKZ, because he is bad, just like Flayer.

The amount of nitpicking and arguing of semantics rather than legitimate points is overwhelming in this thread.
Between Flayer of the Hatebound and Flame-Kin Zealot, I would probably choose Flayer of the Hatebound, because one extra Dread Return is easier to get when compared to two Bridge from Below. Also, Bridge from Below is much easier to deal with than an extra Dread Return. Even with Bridges gone, Flayer of the Hatebound can still win you the game - that won't be true with FKZ (In comparison, if Dread Return was missing, Cabal Therapy can still fill-in to some degree).

Just my two-cents.

Cheers,
jares

jares
04-06-2012, 03:49 PM
Otherwise, your arguments have little weight on a topic that generally requires input other than "Card X Sucks Because I Said So."
Unfortunately, the "Card X Sucks Because I Said So" technique happens here way too often. :frown:

Whenever that happens, I just instead choose to state that certain statements are baseless, and move on to respect other people's opinion - Circular Logic ain't too useful. :tongue:

Regards,
jares

Michael Keller
04-06-2012, 04:11 PM
Unfortunately, the "Card X Sucks Because I Said So" technique happens here way too often. :frown:

Whenever that happens, I just instead choose to state that certain statements are baseless, and move on to respect other people's opinion - Circular Logic ain't too useful. :tongue:

Regards,
jares

Unfortunately jares, things like this need to be called out when they occur. Otherwise, we get cluttered with flammable material and that just isn't happening here. I'm not afraid to call people out when they state empty opinions because frankly it's just annoying and it demerits peoples' hard work, time, and energy.

I would expect the same criticism if I did the same thing. This is a brand new thread, so let's use numbers to support theories here.

While we're on the topic of Firestorm, I think I am going to cut mine out of the board on a trial basis. I've been on fire with my current list, and Firestorm has been generally out of the equation the whole time.

jares
04-06-2012, 04:21 PM
Unfortunately jares, things like this need to be called out when they occur. Otherwise, we get cluttered with flammable material and that just isn't happening here. I'm not afraid to call people out when they state empty opinions because frankly it's just annoying and it demerits peoples' hard work, time, and energy.
I would suggest that we all do this collectively, as this would be much more effective in enlightening people - in contrast, calling people out after heated 1-on-1 exchange might just seem like bickering, and might also defeat the purpose of trying to improve the general culture of this new thread.

I would expect the same criticism if I did the same thing. This is a brand new thread, so let's use numbers to support theories here.
I second the motion! :tongue:

While we're on the topic of Firestorm, I think I am going to cut mine out of the board on a trial basis. I've been on fire with my current list, and Firestorm has been generally out of the equation the whole time.
I'll be looking forward to how this experiment turns out.

Kind Regards,
jares

joemauer
04-06-2012, 05:04 PM
I'm typing from my phone so I'm not being as articulate as I'd like to be. My whole point is that Firestorm is better than Ichorid against TES. It is not my priority to mull to find it, in any way. Firestorm is unquestionably more important for Mav. I know that as well. You may not know this, but I've been playing dredge longer than you, so please be less condescending.

Flayer is fast, but so is FKZ, which requires only one DR and players don't even use him. Flayer isn't even best at what you said he's in there to do.

You're taking these observations a little too personally. I know what DR is for, and use two of them. I use DR-targets in my board for the matches they are applicable because they're game-breaking.

Pretty much everything Hollywood said about battling TES/ANT is correct.

Ichorid is actually better than Firestorm. You want to be casting multiple draw effects and LEDs against storm decks. You do not want to be waiting around with a land untapped waiting to catch them going too low with adn. Ichorid applies quick pressure if you do not go off turn 1 or 2. In fact an ichorid will generally do as much damage as a firestorm.

@Hollywood: When sideboarding against storm decks I would take out a bridge from below instead of Sun Titan. You won't always have Iona with a dread return available quick enough. Sun Titan will likely dig 10 cards deeper, possibly hitting a critical cabal therapy.

igri_is_a_bk
04-06-2012, 08:05 PM
This is my list, since you asked.

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below

//Sideboard
4 Nature's Claim
3 Firestorm
3 Tarnished Citadel
1 Ichorid
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

Look, the comment about Firestorm for Ichorid against TES is what I do. I also bring in the Iona, so our approaches really aren't much different. I don't take out enablers or explosive cards for it. It's usually -1 Pimp, -3 Ichorid, +1 Iona, +3 Firestorm. I'm comfortable and confident with my approach. I don't even bring in the Citadels, because, again, Firestorm isn't necessary to win, but helps.

chibi
04-07-2012, 08:02 AM
While we're on the topic of Firestorm, I think I am going to cut mine out of the board on a trial basis. I've been on fire with my current list, and Firestorm has been generally out of the equation the whole time.

Nice! I'll be waiting for your results! :) And thanks for the feedback by the way!

Final Fortune
04-07-2012, 09:17 AM
Disagreeing with 3xDread Return and Flayer of the Hatebound is only logical, if you play the 3xDread Return and Flayer of the Hatebound list Game 1 then it's obviously better than the Quad Lazer list in terms of speed, but obviously worse in terms of flexibility because reducing Ichorid from 4x to 2x and Cabal Therapy from 3x to 2x means DDDing is no longer an option. The speed vs flexibility issue aside, you also need to consider what your post-board liabilities are. Post-board Dread Return vs Tormod's Crypt effects is dead weight more often than not, so you'll have to SB out the Dread Return and Flayer of the Hatebound package a non-zero amount of the time, presumably for +2 Ichorid, +1 Cabal Therapy in addition to SBing out Lion's Eye Diamond for Lands. You are going to concede SB space, and a lot of SB space, just for a combo-kill that only increase the speed of the kill sequence and not the speed at which you win, which should really be measured in terms of Cabal Therapy eliminating the opponent's outs and forcing him into top deck mode and not in reducing him to 0 life.

Flayer of the Hatebound is "danger of cool things," because it relies on the deck resolving it's draw spells in order to facilitate the combo kill and disregards DDD as an effective means of attack. It's a deck that's based on wishful thinking and reducing your avenues to out play your opponent thru' play skill because 1 Swords to Plowshares turns of your most important engine of Ichorid/Bridge in DDD mode.

HokusSchmokus
04-07-2012, 09:49 AM
You still fail to recognise a few things:
I've never seen a list with 3 Therapies to start with. I've seen more with 4 Therapies, than with 3 Therapies though.
3 Ichorids main is the way to go in Flayer lists, for the reasons you mentioned. You don't have to play Ichorid in your board then, too.
Tormod's Crypt was imo never a relevant card against us and should not be used for reasoning, because a toddler can defeat a double crypt board with dredge.


Edit: I agree though, that it seems very danger of cool things-ish.
Still, it is a way safer and easier to assemble combo kill than FKZ, which in about 30 times I cast DR for it failed to kill 17 times. Not optimal. With Flayer my results are a bit better, fizzling the kill exactly zero times. Note both situations are when the DR SHOULD be lethal.

Michael Keller
04-07-2012, 11:55 AM
Pretty much everything Hollywood said about battling TES/ANT is correct.

Ichorid is actually better than Firestorm. You want to be casting multiple draw effects and LEDs against storm decks. You do not want to be waiting around with a land untapped waiting to catch them going too low with adn. Ichorid applies quick pressure if you do not go off turn 1 or 2. In fact an ichorid will generally do as much damage as a firestorm.

@Hollywood: When sideboarding against storm decks I would take out a bridge from below instead of Sun Titan. You won't always have Iona with a Dread Return available quick enough. Sun Titan will likely dig 10 cards deeper, possibly hitting a critical cabal therapy.

Bridge from Below is the engine that generates tokens for you so you can setup a lethal alpha-strike or just have tokens in general to attack with. I would advise against that, as you want to be able to get as many creatures in play as possible and Bridge is what makes that possible.

Sun Titan is fine to keep in, but it really doesn't make a whole bit of difference if you resolve this, an Iona, or a huge Troll into play. You're probably going to win the game the following turn regardless. I can see the merits of keeping him in, but it shouldn't matter all that much.

I wouldn't touch the Bridges, though.

joemauer
04-07-2012, 04:46 PM
Bridge from Below is the engine that generates tokens for you so you can setup a lethal alpha-strike or just have tokens in general to attack with. I would advise against that, as you want to be able to get as many creatures in play as possible and Bridge is what makes that possible.

Sun Titan is fine to keep in, but it really doesn't make a whole bit of difference if you resolve this, an Iona, or a huge Troll into play. You're probably going to win the game the following turn regardless. I can see the merits of keeping him in, but it shouldn't matter all that much.

I wouldn't touch the Bridges, though.

Bridge does not help too much. Unless you are going for the FKZ kill, having 4 zombies in play rather than 6 zombies or 6 rather than 9 does not matter too much. The reason is because if you are passing the turn then you can alpha strike with ichorid and some dread return goodie. If you feel bridge is some sort of sacred cow then cut one Pimp.

Do not cut Sun Titan in this match! Generally you will have something like half your deck milled on turn two, against storm.decks. I am not a math wizard or anything, but this means Iona will be in your graveyard 50% of the time on your critical turn against storm.decks. Having a second dread return target increases your chance of having a revenant dread return on your critical turn by something like 25%?(somebody better at math than me please confirm this). So having Sun Titan available will you dig 8-12 cards deeper when you don't hit Iona quick enough. Those extra 10 cards on average can hit another crucial cabal therapy or Iona herself.

When I say keep Sun Titan, it is not preference. It is an outright mistake taking him out in this matchup.

Michael Keller
04-07-2012, 08:07 PM
Bridge does not help too much. Unless you are going for the FKZ kill, having 4 zombies in play rather than 6 zombies or 6 rather than 9 does not matter too much. The reason is because if you are passing the turn then you can alpha strike with ichorid and some dread return goodie. If you feel bridge is some sort of sacred cow then cut one Pimp.

Do not cut Sun Titan in this match! Generally you will have something like half your deck milled on turn two, against storm.decks. I am not a math wizard or anything, but this means Iona will be in your graveyard 50% of the time on your critical turn against storm.decks. Having a second dread return target increases your chance of having a revenant dread return on your critical turn by something like 25%?(somebody better at math than me please confirm this). So having Sun Titan available will you dig 8-12 cards deeper when you don't hit Iona quick enough. Those extra 10 cards on average can hit another crucial cabal therapy or Iona herself.

When I say keep Sun Titan, it is not preference. It is an outright mistake taking him out in this matchup.

You're right.

Final Fortune
04-08-2012, 11:32 AM
You still fail to recognise a few things:
I've never seen a list with 3 Therapies to start with. I've seen more with 4 Therapies, than with 3 Therapies though.
3 Ichorids main is the way to go in Flayer lists, for the reasons you mentioned. You don't have to play Ichorid in your board then, too.
Tormod's Crypt was imo never a relevant card against us and should not be used for reasoning, because a toddler can defeat a double crypt board with dredge.


Edit: I agree though, that it seems very danger of cool things-ish.
Still, it is a way safer and easier to assemble combo kill than FKZ, which in about 30 times I cast DR for it failed to kill 17 times. Not optimal. With Flayer my results are a bit better, fizzling the kill exactly zero times. Note both situations are when the DR SHOULD be lethal.

I'm not failing to recognize the number of Ichorids and Cabal Therapies in Dread Return/Flayer of the Hatebound lists, they are exactly 2xIchorids and 3xCabal Therapies in tournament decklists. Even if we aren't discussing tournament decklists, if you're playing with 3xDread Return and 1xFlayer of the Hatebound then you're playing without 4x relevant cards in their stead. Whether it's an Ichorid, a Cabal Therapy, a Golgari Thug, a Careful Study etc. you are losing redundancy for DDD in favor of "flashy" combo kills.

I don't think you can dismiss Tormod's Crypt as an argument against Dread Return, saying a "Toddler" can beat a Tormod's Crypt isn't a justification. Tormod's Crypt disrupts Dread Return more than it disrupts Ichorids and the utility of the Dread Return package decreases more than any other package post-board vs specific hate cards.

joemauer
04-08-2012, 11:53 AM
Having less ichorids does weaken the DDD plan. Especially against a deck like RUG tempo(or is it Canadian thresh again?). Racing them with the DDD plan is tough when you have to waste a lot of turns finding ichorids.

The LED lists with the added bonus of faithless looting are particulary good at fighting through a counterwall. This might explain the success of these 'flashy' kill lists with flayer.

Digital Devil
04-08-2012, 02:36 PM
Having less ichorids does weaken the DDD plan
This. Ichorid can also overturn the race in our favor: if they swing, you swing back with Ichorid and block with tokens; otherwise, you store up a bunch of zombies and prepare for the alpha strike.

P.S. - Many guys are packing 2x Grafdigger's Cage + 3x Surgical Extraction as their main hate choice, here: do you consider boarding in 6 answers just for two Cages (4x Chain of Vapor/4x Nature's Claim + 2x Ingot Chewer) a bad plan? It seems a bit excessive.

Final Fortune
04-08-2012, 06:31 PM
This. Ichorid can also overturn the race in our favor: if they swing, you swing back with Ichorid and block with tokens; otherwise, you store up a bunch of zombies and prepare for the alpha strike.

P.S. - Many guys are packing 2x Grafdigger's Cage + 3x Surgical Extraction as their main hate choice, here: do you consider boarding in 6 answers just for two Cages (4x Chain of Vapor/4x Nature's Claim + 2x Ingot Chewer) a bad plan? It seems a bit excessive.

Provided I knew the number of Cages in advance as 2x, I wouldn't bother SBing against it. If they showed me a Cage while they were SBing, I'd probably bring in 4xNature's Claim and maybe 1xAncient Grudge.

badjuju
04-08-2012, 07:20 PM
Is there any consensus yet on Flayer vs Sun Titan? The former makes for a guaranteed kill, but is more taxing; the latter virtually flips your deck over. Is it always a matchup call? Is it worth it to give your opponents' an extra turn?

Also, this might be a dumb question, but why Sun Titan over Eternal Witness? edit: is it for the possibility of double Coliseum activations when you already played a land for the turn?

dredgekid
04-08-2012, 07:30 PM
Is there any consensus yet on Flayer vs Sun Titan? The former makes for a guaranteed kill, but is more taxing; the latter virtually flips your deck over. Is it always a matchup call? Is it worth it to give your opponents' an extra turn?

Also, this might be a dumb question, but why Sun Titan over Eternal Witness?

You're talking about cards that are playing two different roles. The better comparison is Flayer or FKZ and Sun Titan or Sphinx of lost truths.

Titan and Sphinx are enablers, allowing you to flip your deck over more consistently. Sphinx lets you draw more, Titan lets you do more. The choice is basically, am I all in on combo, or do I want more versatility?

As far as Flayer vs FKZ, I'm leaning Flayer. He allows you to win with less resources. One bridge and 3 narcs? Win w/flayer, lose w/FKZ. 2 narc 2 bridge? same results. The downside of flayer is you have to play more DR with him, and you need 2 DR in the yard to win. However, I'm thinking this is a small price to pay for the reach he can give you.

The Titan is played over witness because you'd rather bring back permanents to play than spells to hand. there is no guarantee you will have the land to cast breakthrough when you DR witness.


Side note, thanks for the updated primer Hollywood! It was severely needed.

badjuju
04-08-2012, 07:40 PM
You're talking about cards that are playing two different roles. The better comparison is Flayer or FKZ and Sun Titan or Sphinx of lost truths.

Titan and Sphinx are enablers, allowing you to flip your deck over more consistently. Sphinx lets you draw more, Titan lets you do more. The choice is basically, am I all in on combo, or do I want more versatility?

As far as Flayer vs FKZ, I'm leaning Flayer. He allows you to win with less resources. One bridge and 3 narcs? Win w/flayer, lose w/FKZ. 2 narc 2 bridge? same results. The downside of flayer is you have to play more DR with him, and you need 2 DR in the yard to win. However, I'm thinking this is a small price to pay for the reach he can give you.

The Titan is played over witness because you'd rather bring back permanents to play than spells to hand. there is no guarantee you will have the land to cast breakthrough when you DR witness.


Side note, thanks for the updated primer Hollywood! It was severely needed.

Right, understood.

The only reason I bring up the two is because most lists I see on here aren't willing to give the deck more than one MD DR target - so do you go for more busted enabling or do you go for the throat? Does that part come down to preference?

Thanks for the tidbit on Sun Titan. That was exactly the reason I was asking - LED is still a prime target for both, but Witness gives you access to Breakthrough. You might not always have the mana to play it, but at least she gives you that option. And both lands/LED, the two things you will be returning with Sun Titan, can also be grabbed by her and played for free. She's also hard-castable (not really a true selling point, but you know how weird those G2s and G3s can get).

264505
04-08-2012, 08:29 PM
Anyone see the Dredge player on camera board into Painter's Stone and combo out? It was pretty funny.

woremak
04-08-2012, 08:34 PM
Anyone see the Dredge player on camera board into Painter's Stone and combo out? It was pretty funny.

Yeah, that was pretty hilarious. I'm interested in seeing that guy's list, it seemed like he was running a lot of land.

264505
04-08-2012, 08:50 PM
Yeah, that was pretty hilarious. I'm interested in seeing that guy's list, it seemed like he was running a lot of land.

I think he top 16ed so his list should be up a bit later. I think JVL said he had 16 lands main.