URW Delver

[dontbiteitholmes]

Creatures
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage

Sorceries
4 Serum Visions

Instants
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
4 Mana Leak
2 Cryptic Command

Lands
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Glacial Fortress
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Plains
2 Island
1 Mountain
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Moorland Haunt

Sideboard
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Timely Reinforcements
SB: 2 Torpor Orb
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 4 Molten Rain

Looking to go to the Columbus Modern GP. Don't really play Modern and tooled around a lot over the weekend. This was the strongest deck I could come up with so I'm probably looking to put this together in the next week so I can go.

Looking for any input on the deck, especially sideboard.

[dontbiteitholmes]

So I didn't end up going to the GP and instead decided to attend a local PTQ where I almost made it and lost in semis.

At any rate judging from the top 8 it looks like I'm not the only one to have the idea to play something similar to this. So now that this is officially a real deck can we talk about it so I can start prepping for GP Chicago.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Well a good place to start might be discussing the strengths/weaknesses of the sideboard Gifts package that we saw used in one of the 3 decks that was this style in the top 8 at Columbus. You might also want to change the OP to have card names and links to the GP ( http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpcol12/welcome#0 ).

As for my advice I'd have to say all the decks there look good. I haven't tested the subtle variations in them so can't really comment on that.

[Borealis]

Holmes, WUR Delver has been viable in modern since last season, but the recent GP results will certainly establish it as a deck to beat going forward. I would personally advocate trying out something like Max or Chris' lists. The one thing I'd definitely change in your list is adding 4x Steppe Lynx. Yes you need to run 13 or do fetch lands, but the little kitty is almost bettere than Delver. That, and maybe cutting the cryptics, since Snapcaster Mage is really a better command in this build.

As for the Gifts package, I can't speak to that since I haven't tried it out yet. Seems good, but I'm not sure where it really shines or where it doesn't. I'm usually more of a traditionalist with sideboards, but throwing down a fatty backed up with burn and delvers seems kinda like living the dream. . .

[dontbiteitholmes]

I've changed the deck some, the first post was my first working build. I still don't like Steppe Lynx, I could just never get it to activate when I needed it to in testing. I'll be doing more testing in the next couple of weeks after this weekends PTQ.

[SpikeyMikey]

To be honest, I like the version from early in the PTQ season better than the versions from the most recent GP. Why? Isochron Scepter. The deck is slower with stick, obviously, but the format is incredibly light on artifact destruction and against the other "fair" decks, stick is an almost insurmountable problem. You put Lightning Helix on a stick, decks like Affinity and Jund have to pull amazing draws in order to win. Off the top of my head, I'd probably go with something along the lines of:

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
3 Magma Jet
3 Remand

4 Steppe Lynx
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Grim Lavamancer

4 Serum Visions

3 Isochron Scepter

2 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Seachrome Coast

Sideboard
4 Spell Pierce
3 Aven Mindcensor
2 Gideon's Lawkeeper
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Disenchant
2 Vendilion Clique

[Phoenix Ignition]

The deck is slower with stick, obviously, but the format is incredibly light on artifact destruction and against the other "fair" decks, stick is an almost insurmountable problem.

Huh? Literally every deck has some form of targeted artifact removal in its 75. From the most recent GP:

Things to deal with Isochron main (4/8 decks, only UWR itself and Affinity would have troubles, assuming UWR doesn't just counter it):
Cryptic Command (bounce)
Maelstrom Pulse
Qasali Pridemage (with 8 ways to find him)
Karn Liberated

Sideboard:
Ancient Grudge
Smash to Smithereens
Nature's Claim
Oblivion Ring
Disenchant
Krosan Grip

I'm not counting the things like Annul, Spell Snare, Negate, Deprive, Mana Leak, Remand, as those don't answer it once it's landed. All of these things were in the decklists of just the top 8 at the GP, and anyone not packing affinity hate would be crazy.

[Borealis]

I can see the value of scepter as like, a two of, either main or SB. When you only have one target that you can swap in and out for games 2-3, artifact hate becomes potentially dead for them. Not sure it's needed right now, but I've got two foil copies in my binder waiting on deck for when I'm feeling feisty.

[SpikeyMikey]

Huh? Literally every deck has some form of targeted artifact removal in its 75. From the most recent GP:

Things to deal with Isochron main (4/8 decks, only UWR itself and Affinity would have troubles, assuming UWR doesn't just counter it):
Cryptic Command (bounce)
Maelstrom Pulse
Qasali Pridemage (with 8 ways to find him)
Karn Liberated

Sideboard:
Ancient Grudge
Smash to Smithereens
Nature's Claim
Oblivion Ring
Disenchant
Krosan Grip

I'm not counting the things like Annul, Spell Snare, Negate, Deprive, Mana Leak, Remand, as those don't answer it once it's landed. All of these things were in the decklists of just the top 8 at the GP, and anyone not packing affinity hate would be crazy.

In the 60 is what you're concerned about. Post board, stick comes out and creates dead hate. But look, for instance, at the 3rd place Jund from Yokohama. No artifact removal main. The one from Columbus had 2 Pulse main. 2. The Pod decks? 1 Pridemage. So if you drop stick, they fetch up pridemage to kill it and you use it in response, you've created card parity. The pridemage traded for the scepter and your burn spell did what it was supposed to do. But they're down a tutor and some time and since you're the tempo deck in the matchup, that's fine by you. The artifact destruction is light enough that stick is not just viable but a definite upgrade.

[Phoenix Ignition]

In the 60 is what you're concerned about. Post board, stick comes out and creates dead hate. But look, for instance, at the 3rd place Jund from Yokohama. No artifact removal main. The one from Columbus had 2 Pulse main. 2. The Pod decks? 1 Pridemage. So if you drop stick, they fetch up pridemage to kill it and you use it in response, you've created card parity. The pridemage traded for the scepter and your burn spell did what it was supposed to do. But they're down a tutor and some time and since you're the tempo deck in the matchup, that's fine by you. The artifact destruction is light enough that stick is not just viable but a definite upgrade.

Rule #1 in arguing, don't use an example that is very out of the ordinary and try to pass it off as commonplace. Jund uses 2-3 Pulses main, and the only one I've ever seen that doesn't is the example you conveniently used. Also, repeating something for emphasis doesn't change the strength of your argument. Doesn't.

Your definition of card parity is wrong. For a stick you use two cards, the Scepter, and whatever you imprint. For a Chord of Calling or Pod activation, they only use the single card from their hand. This is card disadvantage, and you don't come out even.

This deck doesn't need to try to play a mid-late game strategy. It has extremely efficient beats and can bring people's lives down to within a couple burn spells before they stabilize. There's a reason the non-scepter versions got 3 top 8s at the GP.

[SpikeyMikey]

Rule #1 in arguing, don't use an example that is very out of the ordinary and try to pass it off as commonplace. Jund uses 2-3 Pulses main, and the only one I've ever seen that doesn't is the example you conveniently used. Also, repeating something for emphasis doesn't change the strength of your argument. Doesn't.

Your definition of card parity is wrong. For a stick you use two cards, the Scepter, and whatever you imprint. For a Chord of Calling or Pod activation, they only use the single card from their hand. This is card disadvantage, and you don't come out even.

So the Jund list from the T8 in Yokohama is invalid because it doesn't conform to your expectations of Jund. But the UWR from Columbus are correct because they made T8. I see. Fine, we'll play along. So we take your Jund list with 3 Pulse - I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here - and say we're talking turn 6 when you play your stick. There's a 26% chance that they have Pulse to match up against it (who is on the play only makes a difference of 0.02%). If they're only running 2 Pulse, a la Columbus, that drops to a 19% chance. So anywhere between 3/4 and 4/5 of the time, you get an advantage that blows the game wide open. The rest of the time, you merely trade straight up.

Let me say this again, in small words, so it's easy to digest. They use a hate card to trade for your stick. If you get one use out of it, they have traded their card for your stick and you still used the spell you put on it. Say you put a Path on a stick. They Chord up QPM, sac it to kill your stick. You Path their Finks. You are even on cards. They spent 6 mana, you spent 4. Also, they spent a turn not dealing with your Delver/Lynx/other creature on board and used a tutor that they wanted to use to win on not losing.

There. Almost entirely monosyllabic. Hopefully that'll sink in. I got tired of having this argument with people 7 years ago with Zoo.


This deck doesn't need to try to play a mid-late game strategy. It has extremely efficient beats and can bring people's lives down to within a couple burn spells before they stabilize. There's a reason the non-scepter versions got 3 top 8s at the GP.

This, at least, is a legitimate argument. I would agree that UWR Delver is a very aggressive deck. But the opportunity cost of Scepter is minor and it greatly strengthens your matchup against ~25% of the field. You're not slowing yourself down much by including a few copies of stick and you're potentially creating dead cards in G2/3 because they *have* to answer a resolved stick. That's why I think the Scepter version is a better call right now. If the format were more centered around fast combo, Storm, Tron, even the now defunct Twin, I would go stickless. Then the loss of a fraction of a turn on average is more painful. But that's not the format we're playing in right now.

[dontbiteitholmes]

If you are playing stick you are making a new thread to discuss your Scepter deck that is a completely different deck from what we are talking about here thank you.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Let me say this again, in small words, so it's easy to digest.

There. Almost entirely monosyllabic. Hopefully that'll sink in. I got tired of having this argument with people 7 years ago with Zoo.



What's your problem? Seriously, this is deck discussion, not see how many ways you can insult someone while arguing a card that at best is a decent card for a slow control deck. You get hostile very quickly.

[SpikeyMikey]

What's your problem? Seriously, this is deck discussion, not see how many ways you can insult someone while arguing a card that at best is a decent card for a slow control deck. You get hostile very quickly.


Rule #1 in arguing, don't use an example that is very out of the ordinary and try to pass it off as commonplace.


Your definition of card parity is wrong.

I pulled lists from the most recent 2 Modern GP's - the only ones recent enough to be relevant - and you tell me that I'm cherry picking. I say that if your opponent is trading their card for your card and an activation, you haven't lost anything and you tell me that I'm wrong. If you're going to get hostile, I'm going to get hostile right back. I'm not going to start anything but I'm not going to let someone talk down to me like I don't know the format either.



If you are playing stick you are making a new thread to discuss your Scepter deck that is a completely different deck from what we are talking about here thank you.

So I add 3 cards to a deck and it needs its own thread? I'll keep that in mind. I apologize, Mr. Holmes sir. I won't trouble your thread any more.

[Borealis]

Whoa guys, relax! No need for the cat fight over 1 fucking card!

I'm going to have to back up SpikeyMikey on this. While I dont think I would necessarily run Scepters in WUR at this exact time, I really don't understand why you are all jumping down his throat about it.

First of all, adding 3 cards to a decklist does NOT require another thread. Holmes do we need one for Steppe lynx/ No Steppe lynx? No. It's the same deck. 3 slots does not warrant a different thread. If you want 2 threads, go to mtgsalvation.

Second, while some decks do have maindeck answers to scepter, many do not. The mirror is notable, as are the many other fair decks you can expect to see in a given event. Top 8 decks aren't the only decks you have to fight thru to win. If they do have an answer, you can sometimes counter it. Or you can make sure to get at least one activation, as discussed above. And yes phoenix, one activation brings us back to card parity, even if you are just doming them for 3 damage, you got to use that spell.

Scepter allows you to play mind games with your opponents, similar to Shackles out of RUG. Say they do have hate maindeck, or they see scepter game 1 and lose to it. Now they have to decide whether to try and fight it game 2 or not. Meanwhile, you can board out your 2-3 artifacts and nullify their answers, while bringing in more relevant material from the board. It's another chance to put them on the back foot. Plus, when scepter is good, it's really good. Stealing games for two mana is fine with me.

The reasons not to run scepter are simple. First, Phoenix if you really expect a LOT of artifact hate, than cut it. No big deal. Secondly I do think it can be slow sometimes, and is probably most effective against aggro and control decks. Against certain aggro decks we could probably use the help, but in some cases it is just making a good matchup better. Also, it costs two cards and does look really bad when it's answered immediately. It's a bad top deck. It ties up our mana. These are valid arguments, and the main reasons I haven't tried it yet. Still, it's pretty sexy getting a Helix on a stick.

I think it's time I sleeved up some Isochron Scepters and actually get a feel for them. In the meantime, let's not flame people for valid card suggestions.

[Phoenix Ignition]

First of all, adding 3 cards to a decklist does NOT require another thread. Holmes do we need one for Steppe lynx/ No Steppe lynx? No. It's the same deck. 3 slots does not warrant a different thread. If you want 2 threads, go to mtgsalvation.


Well think about it with slightly different cards. If you added 3 Humility to Nic Fit in Legacy, would that completely change the deck? I would say that kind of deck (which probably is bad) would be a completely different play style. Now, let's say instead of Humility you decide to run 3 Exalted Angel in your Nic Fit list. That deck has almost the exact same playstyle as a normal Nic Fit deck and then wouldn't need a new thread.

Isochron Scepter slows the deck down. Obviously it isn't the equivalent of adding Humility, but it is somewhere in between the two. An Isochron Scepter deck may work in Modern. It might even be the same colors. But I'd argue that that deck isn't this deck. This deck's plan is to run the most efficient creatures and spells to kill the opponent as quickly as possible. Remand is the only thing that sort of goes against that plan, but it really doesn't since you're just buying time for your creatures to kill the opponent.

Now Scepter doesn't go with this plan. It isn't the most cost effective way of dealing damage, and it doesn't slow the opponent down. It slows you down. If you're paying 4 mana to Lightning Helix someone you're going against the general strategy of this deck.

I'm sure there are games where Scepter would have been the difference between winning and losing, and having it would be the best thing ever, but I don't think that will happen more often than not. When I played it in this list right when this deck got popular it just felt clunky and largely unnecessary. This deck does fine without it because you get the opponent down to the red zone before the lasting card advantage of a Scepter actually on the board and usable for 2+ turns mattered.

[Borealis]

Your example makes no sense though. Humility makes no sense in Nic Fit, it is anti-synergistic with the entire deck. And even if you felt the odd desire to run 3 humility in a rock deck, but change nothing else, I'm sure no one would recommend you start a new thread. They would dismiss it, or perhaps slap you on the back for the new tech, and move on. If you came up with an entirely new Junk list that actually strived to gain value from humility as a center piece, by all means you'd be worth a new thread.

Adding scepter is synergistic with the decks main game plan: hit early with dudes and finish the game with burn and removal. It may be slower, possibly inconsistent and unnecessary even, but it doesn't change the game plan at all. It's just another facet if the same plan, it's a way of saturating your instant-based disruption and burn, and it represents inevitability in a deck that can sometimes run out of gas. There is nothing wrong with the suggestion, and it does not require another thread. No one is trying to turn this into a scepter control thread.

[Lord Seth]

So I add 3 cards to a deck and it needs its own thread? I'll keep that in mind. I apologize, Mr. Holmes sir. I won't trouble your thread any more.That was actually a response to my message, which I decided to delete afterwards.

[Borealis]

Holmes made the suggestion as well. Either way, we should be discussing different ideas rather than trying to suppress them.

[chags]

While I do think isochron scepter is a good card finding space for it is a bit difficult. At the moment I definitely prefer the versatility of snapcaster over isochron scepter. I also don't think isochron scepter gives you enough edge to be a card you always want game one and then you side out to dodge artifact hate, if you are only running 3 copies of one artifact in your deck then at best you are probably getting them to side in 1-2 dead cards. I'd prefer to have snapcaster who often only gets better after boarding by giving you additional combusts/hurkyls/counters/extractions/insert instant or sorcery here. The other problem with scepter is that this deck wants to be very aggressive and holding back mana for scepter when your only counter magic (to bluff with) is remand seems meh. I'd rather spend my time snapcasting draw spells to fix my hand and put some added pressure on the opponent. I've only played this deck at a few PTQs so I'm a little out of date with it but last ptq season I was pretty unimpressed by what I saw in scepter.

On an unrelated note in my experience this deck gets steamrolled by wb tokens, I think an echoing truth or two (maybe even a one of cryptic md) could be very worthwhile. Truths also help against UR storm which also seems to be a pretty bad match up.

[bowvamp]

Ratchet Bomb is the best way to deal with Tokens, Hexproof, and whatever your opponent has in the board.

[chags]

Ratchet Bomb is the best way to deal with Tokens, Hexproof, and whatever your opponent has in the board.

echoing truth has the added bonus of working against kiki jiki (although just for one attack phase). ratchet bomb may be better though.

[bowvamp]

Why can't Ratchet Bomb hit Kiki tokens? I think they work the same way in that sense.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Why can't Ratchet Bomb hit Kiki tokens? I think they work the same way in that sense.

It can. What statement are you responding to?

[chags]

It can. What statement are you responding to?

He was responding to my statement, I thought the copies didn't get blown up by bomb. My mistake.

[Borealis]

Chags, I imagine W/B tokens is a fairly real menace on MODO? I obviously haven't encountered it much in paper form yet, but the format is much quieter in cardboard than digital form. Hopefully it's not as common in paper, I hate W/B and Martyr Proc decks.

I think I would run Echoing Truth over Ratchet Bomb in this deck, and only if I felt I was having a lot of trouble with token strategies. Even then, it's possible something like Volcanic Fallout or Pyroclasm is better. Either way, Truth is instant speed, so you can use it as a surprise blowout play, and it synergizes well with Snapcaster. It also can bounce big permanents that are otherwise problematic, such as Karn, Wurmcoil, Griselbrand, etc. Ratchet Bomb is far too slow to answer those types of cards.

Cryptic as a 1-2 of could make sense too, given a meta with more midrangey decks in it. I don't think it fits well into the build I'm currently focusing on, which is close to Max Teitze's list from GP Columbus. Still, it's a card that is constantly in the bullpen with this type of deck.

[chags]

Chags, I imagine W/B tokens is a fairly real menace on MODO? I obviously haven't encountered it much in paper form yet, but the format is much quieter in cardboard than digital form. Hopefully it's not as common in paper, I hate W/B and Martyr Proc decks.

I think I would run Echoing Truth over Ratchet Bomb in this deck, and only if I felt I was having a lot of trouble with token strategies. Even then, it's possible something like Volcanic Fallout or Pyroclasm is better. Either way, Truth is instant speed, so you can use it as a surprise blowout play, and it synergizes well with Snapcaster. It also can bounce big permanents that are otherwise problematic, such as Karn, Wurmcoil, Griselbrand, etc. Ratchet Bomb is far too slow to answer those types of cards.

Cryptic as a 1-2 of could make sense too, given a meta with more midrangey decks in it. I don't think it fits well into the build I'm currently focusing on, which is close to Max Teitze's list from GP Columbus. Still, it's a card that is constantly in the bullpen with this type of deck.

Well WB tokens won a gp so it will be *reasonably* popular in paper, I recall playing against it last PTQ season and it was tough. The problem with fallout and clasm is they run 8 honor the pure effects so often clasm doesn't actually do enough. Cryptic seems too slow for this deck but maybe it could work as a one of, I wouldn't run any more then that. I agree that ratchet bomb is exceptionally slow, personally I like echoing truth a lot better and see it as a more fitting one of then cryptic for a deck of this caliber.

[Borealis]

Hm, good point. I think the Gifts package out if the board might solve a lot of those issues actually. Iona vs empty board, Elesh vs loaded board should go over top most of the time.

After watching mike Jacobs' videos online I'm pretty sold on his version for the time being. Getting reallly excited for paper modern to get back in style! Snapcaster twisted image? Yes please!

[chags]

Hm, good point. I think the Gifts package out if the board might solve a lot of those issues actually. Iona vs empty board, Elesh vs loaded board should go over top most of the time.

After watching mike Jacobs' videos online I'm pretty sold on his version for the time being. Getting reallly excited for paper modern to get back in style! Snapcaster twisted image? Yes please!

They run black and white removal, I wouldn't even bother with iona. Also the 4 mana cost of both gifts and unburial can often be slow enough that they get 2 anthems out. I don't much like the gifts plan in this deck, the more popular the idea gets the worse it is. Transformative sbs tend to only be good if they are a surprise. In top 8s where people get to see your list it seems even worse.

[Lord Seth]

They run black and white removal, I wouldn't even bother with iona. Also the 4 mana cost of both gifts and unburial can often be slow enough that they get 2 anthems out. I don't much like the gifts plan in this deck, the more popular the idea gets the worse it is. Transformative sbs tend to only be good if they are a surprise. In top 8s where people get to see your list it seems even worse.It is still possible to surprise them, though, because they don't necessarily know if they'll be meeting you with the same deck or if you are actually sideboarding. They still have to take a 50/50 shot at which deck you're bringing in.

Though honestly, I think someone should be worrying a lot more about getting to top 8 than what happens after you do.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Though honestly, I think someone should be worrying a lot more about getting to top 8 than what happens after you do.

I agree with this, although honestly we also shouldn't be worrying about things like them hitting 2 anthems either. If the player gets a nuts hand against you, regardless of deck, you're going to lose. You have to consider sideboard choices for the other 95% of the time though.

[bowvamp]

Ok, this is starting to become bothersome. Ratchet Bomb is instant speed. The surprise aspect of Truth has no bearing on what you are saying because you're leaving two mana open anyway. The only reason I'd like truth over bomb is if I felt like Isochron Scepter + Truth would lock them out of the game completely (W(x) Tokens being the only example of that). Currently Ratchet bomb hurts some of your worst matchups (Merfolk being a good example).

What is your plan against Hexproof creatures? Most of your removal targets and Thrun is a common SB card.

[Mr. Safety]

Ratchet Bomb is the best way to deal with Tokens, Hexproof, and whatever your opponent has in the board.

Not even Engineered Explosives? I would think a three color deck would want Explosives over Ratchet Bomb. Curious about your thoughts here.

[chags]

Not even Engineered Explosives? I would think a three color deck would want Explosives over Ratchet Bomb. Curious about your thoughts here.

I'm guessing something about thrun.

[Mr. Safety]

Ahhh...good call. Would Ratchet Bomb be fast enough to deal with Thrun? That's four full turns before you can deal with him.

Bonfire of the Damned?

[Phoenix Ignition]

Ahhh...good call. Would Ratchet Bomb be fast enough to deal with Thrun? That's four full turns before you can deal with him.

No, it definitely wouldn't. They would always see the Ratchet Bomb in time to keep up the regeneration mana. I doubt anyone has ever killed a Thrun with a ratchet bomb ever.

[RhoxWarMonk]

I, too am trying out the URW Delver deck and have had promising results so far. I have the base pretty much figured out (which is usually standard) but Im still tweaking with the last 2-3 card choices overall. Im not sure if I should be playing the 4th Giest (currently running 4 Delver/Lynx/Snapcaster and 3 Giest) or if I should try out 2 Spell Snare or even Vapor Snag. I guess other choices could be considered with Spell Pierce or extra burn, I'm just really not sure what to add as a 2 of. Has anyone tried Electrolyze? Too slow? Which out of the above would you run?

Also, how many land are you guys running? 21 or 22 seems to be the consensus - I'm leaning towards the latter to ensure I don't miss land drops (helps with Lynx's and having mana to fuel Snapcasters).

[chags]

Ahhh...good call. Would Ratchet Bomb be fast enough to deal with Thrun? That's four full turns before you can deal with him.

Bonfire of the Damned?

No I was being sarcastic and making fun of his earlier reasoning for ratchet bomb.

[Borealis]

Ok, this is starting to become bothersome. Ratchet Bomb is instant speed. The surprise aspect of Truth has no bearing on what you are saying because you're leaving two mana open anyway. The only reason I'd like truth over bomb is if I felt like Isochron Scepter + Truth would lock them out of the game completely (W(x) Tokens being the only example of that). Currently Ratchet bomb hurts some of your worst matchups (Merfolk being a good example).

What is your plan against Hexproof creatures? Most of your removal targets and Thrun is a common SB card.

I assume you were responding to me up above there. Anyway, no need to be bothered, that's what discussion is for.

Yes, Ratchet Bomb can blow up at instant speed, but that's not at all the same as being an instant. For starters, it doesn't flip Delver. It also doesn't synergize with Snapcaster Mage. It also happens to KILL your Insectile Abberations on 0. And I do think there is a significant difference between holding up 2 mana and plopping down a Ratchet Bomb. When you hold up 2+ mana, it could mean anything. Half the deck is instant speed. If you represent 3 mana, they will most likely assume Snapcaster Mage. They aren't going to expect a Truth unless you've shown it to them already, or given them some other clues that you have a combat trick. Ratchet Bomb says "Look, here I am. I'm going to kill all your tokens at some point. Plan accordingly." It's much easier to bait them into a bad attack situation when you can blow them out midcombat, without first announcing your plan ahead of time.

This is a tempo deck, and cards like Echoing Truth are quit fitting to our overall plan anyway. There is nothing wrong with Ratchet Bomb, or Engineered Explosives for that matter, but what are you siding it in for besides the token decks? Ratchet Bomb especially seems too slow for anything other than tokens, and I'd much rather have EE against tribal decks like Merfolk.

[bfeingersh]

Is Thrun a problem for RUW delver? Can't you just Flame Javelin Geist suicide and burn them out? Does any deck even play Thrun to begin with?

This isn't a tempo deck. This is 40lightningbolts.dec for grownups.

[Borealis]

Agreed for the most part, Ben. I don't expect Thrun to really be a problem either, nor a very common card we will be fighting.

Also, you are correct, this isn't really a tempo deck, but it's probably the closest thing in modern. Remand is a great tempo play, and Removal-Snapcaster-Removal backed by a threat also does a decent tempo impression. But RUG in Legacy this is not. Aggro-Control? Sort of. 40Bolts.dec? Yes indeed.

[bowvamp]

Thrun is a problem. Bant plays Thrun. Yeah, I guess Ratchet Bomb is closer to EE in functionality and I guess it all comes down to how much mana you're willing to pay for the effect. With bomb it's always 2, with EE it's a minimum of 2.

Has anyone tried playing Wind Zendikon? That card seems like a step up from the situational lynx. I could be wrong though.

[Borealis]

Well Thrun may be a problem for you, but I wouldn't expect to see it very frequently, so I'm not concerned with sideboard slots for him at all. There are plenty of ways to fight through a Thrun without needing a specific hate card for it. And neither Ratchet Bomb or EE is that card anyway.

Wind Zendikon is cool, but it's not better than an actual creature. It means you are basically setting yourself back a land drop every time you play it, and it can't ever swing for more than 2. When they remove it, that's another land drop you just lost. We may not be a tempo deck, but the last thing we want is to give our opponents tempo on us.

Steppe Lynx, unhindered, is very often 4 damage on turn 2, and usually will stay live for enough time to make his mark. By the time they've dealt with it you're setting up mana for a bigger threat and better plays. And you're not losing a turn 2 because you need to attack with your Steam Vents.

[bowvamp]

Except that when they kill Wind Zendikon the land goes back to your hand. Wind Zendikon also has pseudo-haste.

I wasn't saying that Ratchet Bomb was the answer to thrun, I was saying that thrun is a very popular card.

[Borealis]

Except that when they kill Wind Zendikon the land goes back to your hand. Wind Zendikon also has pseudo-haste.

Right, so not only are you sacrificing mana in order to attack with your flying 2/2 land, but when they burn it out, you are set back a land drop. Bouncing the land to your hand isn't really a good thing, since it means you are doing even less with your mana. You're even worse off if it was a Shockland, since you now have to pay 2 life just to make sure you aren't 2 turns behind. And you still lose the Enchantment, which was your actual threat. Meanwhile, it's turn 3, you've done 2-4 damage, and you have 1-2 lands in play. Steppe Lynx is the card that gets us turn 4 wins, not Wind Zendikon.'

I'm not trying to sound harsh, but I really think you need to give the Lynx another try. It's way too good in this deck.

Also, I wouldn't call Thrun "popular". Yes, he will appear in some green sideboards from time to time (NayaPod, Jund), but outside the Bantproof deck he's not really a maindeck staple anywhere. Either way, just burn them out over top, like we do against any deck that clogs the ground. I'd rather see a Thrun than, say, Obstinate Baloth in most cases.

[Mr. Safety]

No I was being sarcastic and making fun of his earlier reasoning for ratchet bomb.

I missed it, lol. Thanks for humoring me.

[Borealis]

So here's where I'm at as of now:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of St. Traft
1 Grim Lavamancer

1 Isochron Scepter

4 Serum Visions
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Remand
1 Magma Jet

4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Marsh Flats
2 Steam Vents
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Moorland Haunt

Sideboard is still being worked on, so I won't bother posting it yet. There isn't yet a local meta anyway. I briefly tried the Gifts/Rites board, and promptly decided to put it on hold after some initial dislike for the awkwardness. Brainstorm we don't have, and Faithless Looting is hard to justify, which makes drawing Iona or Lady Gaga just awful.

It's possible the Grim Lavamancer and another card should become more spells, most likely 2x Spell Pierce or Pillar of Flame. Forked Bolt is another option if enough Pod decks and whatnot are running around. I've also considered adding the 4th Geist, but I think that would actually be better played as a single Vendilion Clique. This gives you access to 2+ Cliques after board, gives you some variety in your Legendary Creatures, and also gives you another actual flyer, which can be relevant when blocking or swinging over a clogged board.

Grim Lavamancer and Isochron Scepter are to mitigate the "running out of gas" scenario, and also to provide more resiliency against decks like Merfolk, Pod, Jund, and other decks that just shit out too many creatures. Scepter in particular has been very satisfying against my Fish-slinging roomate, and it may find a second slot in the board at some point.

However, I'm only running 21 spells, so it's possible I need to cut down on the cuteness a little to just flip Delvers more often. I also don't think Moorland Haunt is going to be relevant very often in this deck, and have yet to actually use Eiganjo Castle, so I'm debating cutting one of those for a spell. 21 lands seems ok, but it's a bit light with how mana-hungry this deck can be. I may also just cut the 13th fetch, since they can sometimes hurt in racing situation.

Still have much testing to do, but wanted to get some more blood flowing on this thread again.

[RhoxWarMonk]

So here's where I'm at as of now:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of St. Traft
1 Grim Lavamancer

1 Isochron Scepter

4 Serum Visions
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Remand
1 Magma Jet

4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Marsh Flats
2 Steam Vents
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Moorland Haunt

Sideboard is still being worked on, so I won't bother posting it yet. There isn't yet a local meta anyway. I briefly tried the Gifts/Rites board, and promptly decided to put it on hold after some initial dislike for the awkwardness. Brainstorm we don't have, and Faithless Looting is hard to justify, which makes drawing Iona or Lady Gaga just awful.

It's possible the Grim Lavamancer and another card should become more spells, most likely 2x Spell Pierce or Pillar of Flame. Forked Bolt is another option if enough Pod decks and whatnot are running around. I've also considered adding the 4th Geist, but I think that would actually be better played as a single Vendilion Clique. This gives you access to 2+ Cliques after board, gives you some variety in your Legendary Creatures, and also gives you another actual flyer, which can be relevant when blocking or swinging over a clogged board.

Grim Lavamancer and Isochron Scepter are to mitigate the "running out of gas" scenario, and also to provide more resiliency against decks like Merfolk, Pod, Jund, and other decks that just shit out too many creatures. Scepter in particular has been very satisfying against my Fish-slinging roomate, and it may find a second slot in the board at some point.

However, I'm only running 21 spells, so it's possible I need to cut down on the cuteness a little to just flip Delvers more often. I also don't think Moorland Haunt is going to be relevant very often in this deck, and have yet to actually use Eiganjo Castle, so I'm debating cutting one of those for a spell. 21 lands seems ok, but it's a bit light with how mana-hungry this deck can be. I may also just cut the 13th fetch, since they can sometimes hurt in racing situation.

Still have much testing to do, but wanted to get some more blood flowing on this thread again.

I'm glad you posted this as I've been following this thread a while without much activity :( It's a fantastic deck, definitely tier 1 that's for sure.

Some comments on your deck list. First off, I really like it - it's very similar to mine. Seems there's 3 or 4 main deck slots you can play with, depending on if you run 21 or 22 land. I've been trying both but I think I'm more comfortable with 22, as you said this deck can be very mana hungry at times and I never find more land to be bad (fuels lynx's, snapcasters, etc).

Speaking of lands - Im not sure I ever got Moorland Haunt into play :) I am considering swapping it with a plain island for fetching. I also only run 12 fetch lands - it seems to be plenty and it's very sneaky to play one, pass EOT, then before your next turn snap it for a shockland (into play tapped) to get a new duel land in play without paying the extra life. You can always snap it for mana if you need to counter a spell or burn some removal. I don't worry about my life total that much, even with all the pain lands. The only one that matters is the last one and Ive rarely had a problem casting something I needed to win because I didn't have enough health.

How are you finding the scepter? This has been brought up a lot - Im going to try them main deck as well to see how they perform. I have very little experience with it so far....

Apart from that - my deck is basically identical to yours. I don't run the lavamancer or magma jet - instead I'm slotting in the second scepter and a spell pierce. Electrolyze might be a nice sub as a 1x too. Once you get the mana it could be 3-1 card advantage.... very under rated card IMO.

I haven't played with Clique in this deck at all - so I can't really comment much on it. I'm sure it's good though... the card itself I've played with a lot and it's fantastic - Im just not sure if it's overkill here. Once you get a Geist on the board it's game over at that point if he's not dealt with.

I'm having troubles with my sideboard too.... I didn't like the gifts package that much (but maybe it is good and Im just not used to it) but it feels too "cute" for me personally. I went with something more traditional.... Kor's, Smash to Smithereens, Meddling Mages, Combusts, Volcanic Fallouts, etc in some combination. I haven't had a chance to playtest it much though.... if I don't end up liking the Scepters I'll probably move them to the SB but I think they might be better in the MD and then move them out games 2-3 to create dead cards for your opponent. Most of the deck is easy to put together (4x of everything good) but the last few slots are killing me. I just can't find the one or two cards that I really want to use there so I've been trying everything I can think of.

I really, REALLY wish they would unban something like Ponder because Serum Visions just feels terrible. Knowing this is the best digger in the format is troublesome to me.

[Achamian]

What do you guys think are the best SB options we have available against Jund? I really have some troubles beating this deck without a really fast start.

[JDK]

Gifts -> Unburial Rites + Iona -> Iona on black?
(unless they have Liliana on the board, but you should be able to burn her)

[Borealis]

^Sphinx of the Steel Wind is another great target against them if you're Unburial Ritesing.

For regular SB plans, I think it depends on how you want to fight them. I like adding in at least a couple Molten Rains, especially on the play. Flashing that back turn 5 can set them back long enough to burn them out. Also, swapping out a couple Steppe Lynxes for Kor Firewalker is a good way to stay in the midgame with them. Vendilion Clique is a helpful addition if it's in your SB too, as a way to fix problematic cards in their hand and also get through any board stalls they create.

Geist is your Best card against them, so protect it well. Like a lot of matchups, an aggressive start is often very helpful, but that doesn't mean we can't grind them out. Point burn at their face as often as possible, save your Paths for Kitchen Finks, and let Bob do some of your dirty work for you!

[DragoFireheart]

Has anyone had success using Vexing Devil? He's pretty big for 1 mana and even if they take the burn, 1 mana for 4 damage to the dome is pretty sweet. Unlike the kitty, he doesn't need fetchlands to power up. Consider we run burn already, he seems like a good fit.

[NecroYawgmoth]

I don't think that Punisher cards are any good for the deck.

Also, most lists I know also ran 1-3 Lavamancers so it isn't that bad to run many fetches.

Steppe Lynx is most of the time a 4/5 without giving the opponent a choice, and is the best first turn drop in the deck, so I don't see why Devil would be any better than him.

[DragoFireheart]

I don't think that Punisher cards are any good for the deck.

Also, most lists I know also ran 1-3 Lavamancers so it isn't that bad to run many fetches.

Steppe Lynx is most of the time a 4/5 without giving the opponent a choice, and is the best first turn drop in the deck, so I don't see why Devil would be any better than him.

- I've also seen a lots of Delver Blade decks running Grim. Doesn't he conflict with Snappy though?

[dunk]

- I've also seen a lots of Delver Blade decks running Grim. Doesn't he conflict with Snappy though?

No. The deck plays enough fetchlands and creatures to have enough non "spell" fuel. And most of the time it doesn't make a big difference whether you flashback bolt one of their crits or burn it down with lavamancer. Except for that activating mancer costs only 1mana to use.
Anyway, mancer is such a beast. Dropping him turn 1 makes affinity a favorable matchup, instantly wins against any pod deck, gives you a chance to win g1 against Lifegain WW; it also is an edge in the mirror, sometimes your opponent is just cold to it, but most of the time he has an answer which costs him some tempo though. In all the other, non attrition based matchups ( Storm, Tron and other kind of combo decks ) he is 1 drop nr 9 and 10 ( sometimes 11 ), which results in more keepable hands as well ( starting with t1 mancer against them is still suboptimal, but better than taking anohter mulligan or having no clock at all ).

[Arsenal]

I'm interested in running the UWr Midrange list, the one not running Delver or Steppe Lynx. Should I make a new thread for UWr Midrange or are the decks similar enough to be discussed here?

[JDK]

It's a different deck, so I'd say yes.

[Mr. Safety]

Anyone toying with Telling Time to flip their delvers? The one-mana cantrips in modern suck ass, so I was trying to figure out a decent 2-mana option. It's instant, puts a card back on top (pretty sexy) nets you a card and gets rid of a piece of chaff. Just throwing it onto the table, maybe it's an overlooked option. Maybe it's been tried and found to be crap, but I haven't heard much about it in modern at all.

[kombatkiwi]

The one-mana cantrips in modern suck ass
This is not a reason to go looking for two-mana cantrips

It's like complaining about a lack of Goyf: "The 2 mana green creatures in standard suck ass, so I'm going to play Kessig Cagebreakers"

Admittedly your line of reasoning isn't that bad but it's the same principle. Paying 2 mana for a cantrip in this deck is too high a price, even if it is an instant and has a little more flexibility than Serum Visions / Sleight of Hand / Thought Scour / Twisted Image.

[cab0747]

Is this deck still viable? I am looking for something to play in modern and I have all the needed cards here. It lookslike this thread hasn't been updated in a while.

[DragoFireheart]

Is this deck still viable? I am looking for something to play in modern and I have all the needed cards here. It lookslike this thread hasn't been updated in a while.

This deck evolved into UWr Control with a butt load of removal.

And then Jund just sorta laughed at it and took over a recent Grand Prix.