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Menteith
07-29-2012, 08:21 PM
Originally born out of my desire to find a way to play Night of Soul's Betrayal in the Modern, this deck is fast becoming one of my favorite modern decks. Eventually, the deck morphed into a sordid love affair with Phyrexian Obliterator and a supporting cast. While it's shown promising results, it's still very much a work in progress, and I'd like to hear what everyone has to say. Without further commentary, here is the list;

Instants and Sorceries - 15
3x Slaughter Pact
2x Thoughtseize
1x Duress
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Path to Exile

Creatures - 12
4x Nantuko Shade
4x Tidehollow Sculler
3x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Phyrexian Obliterator
1x Tombstalker

Planeswalkers - 3
3x Liliana of the Veil

Equipment - 4
2x Sword of Feast and Famine
2x Sword of Fire and Ice

Lands - 23
4x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
4x Verdant Catacombs
11x Swamp

Sideboard
3x Zealous Persecution
2x Gatekeeper of Malakir
1x Duress
2x Thoughtseize
4x Deathmark
3x Kataki, War's Wage

Specific Questions

- Liliana of the Veil vs. Gatekeeper of Malakir?
While Liliana is a much stronger card over time, the equipment count and relatively light threat base has kept me coming back to Gatekeeper. They fill a very similar role, and I don't want to overload my 3cc slot. What's your opinions on the split right now, and what would you recommend?

- Equipment situation
Lashwrithe is useful as both a threat and a decent equipment, and I've been reasonably happy with it as Obliterators 5-7, but I'm not sure that it's optimal, especially given the constrains that it puts on the mana base (it requires an awful lot of Swamps to function). Additionally, while Sword of Fire and Ice hasn't disappointed me yet, I'm open to ideas if someone has a better suggestion.

- The removal base
This ties in with the Gatekeeper vs. Liliana question above, but there's a good deal of removal options available to the deck. A card that I've actually had limited success with was Sickening Shoal in the place of Slaughter Pact, but the card disadvantage really turns me off from it. I've been considering starting the Zealous Persecutions, and boarding the Path to Exiles, but I'm unsure of how that would turn out. Does anyone have a better proposal that what I'm using already?

- Nantuko Shade replacements
Simply put, there aren't that many decent 2cc creatures for Black in Modern. Shade is fine for now, but it does require a substantial mana investment in a deck that really wants to be casting a spell every turn. I've considered Dark Confidant (killed me too many times with the high average CC in the deck), Thalia (the deck doesn't have support needed to really use her well), Withered Wretch (situational for the current metagame). Is there a decent creature that I haven't considered here?

Any general pieces of advice about the deck would be most welcome, as well. Thanks to everyone in advance!

Here's a list of the MD changes I've made so far;
Change 1;
-3 Lashwrithe
-1 Sword of Fire and Ice
+2 Liliana of the Veil
+2 Sword of Feast and Famine

Change 2;
-2 Thoughseize
+1 Duress
+1 Gatekeeper of Malakir

Phoenix Ignition
07-29-2012, 08:38 PM
6 pieces of high costing equipment is generally too much for a deck like this, and especially too much when 1/2 of your creatures don't need equipment to function well. I don't really like Lashwrithe since it doesn't add anything to your creatures other than just making them huge. Swords at least give 2 color protection. It turning into a creature is nice but I think it just makes your mana curve too high, especially for "Tempo."

I'd drop the number of equipment to 3-4 so you can fit in extra Lilianas, as card advantage is something you will desperately need with this deck. I would also switch the equipment to being 1-2 Sword of Fire and Ice and 1-2 Sword of Feast and Famine. I really like F&I because card drawing is always relevant, and pinging creatures is very good right now. F&F would be a great fit in here because making them discard fits in with your current discard strategy, and untapping your lands means you can tap out to pump Shade.

As a side note, Tempo is a really overused term and doesn't fit in a deck that runs Path to Exile. Basically this is aggro.

Menteith
07-29-2012, 08:49 PM
6 pieces of high costing equipment is generally too much for a deck like this, and especially too much when 1/2 of your creatures don't need equipment to function well. I don't really like Lashwrithe since it doesn't add anything to your creatures other than just making them huge. Swords at least give 2 color protection. It turning into a creature is nice but I think it just makes your mana curve too high, especially for "Tempo."

I'd drop the number of equipment to 3-4 so you can fit in extra Lilianas, as card advantage is something you will desperately need with this deck. I would also switch the equipment to being 1-2 Sword of Fire and Ice and 1-2 Sword of Feast and Famine. I really like F&I because card drawing is always relevant, and pinging creatures is very good right now. F&F would be a great fit in here because making them discard fits in with your current discard strategy, and untapping your lands means you can tap out to pump Shade.

As a side note, Tempo is a really overused term and doesn't fit in a deck that runs Path to Exile. Basically this is aggro.

Fair enough about the name; I honestly just wanted to get some feedback on the deck, and sort of just grabbed the first things I could use to use to describe it.

Lashwrithe is something I'm very much on the fence about; everything you've said about it as an equipment is absolutely true. I would generally consider it as a creature first, that has an added benefit of sticking around. It's partially a holdover from when I started a full set of Vampire Nighthawks, where the power boost was much stronger - I"ll drop it from my current list and test how it goes tonight.

Testing Changes
-3 Lashwrite
-1 Sword of Fire and Ice
+2 Liliana of the Veil
+2 Sword of Feast and Famine

-1 Liliana of the Veil (SB)
+1 Duress (SB)

Phoenix Ignition
07-29-2012, 08:52 PM
I"ll drop it from my current list and test how it goes tonight.


Cool, let us know how it goes. You might want to edit the original list with the new changes just so other people just reading the thread can see where the deck is currently at.

kwis
07-29-2012, 09:48 PM
Shouldn't the first question be: Why aren't you playing a more Bob friendly build?

Edit: I assume if your initial attempt was to play with NoSB that it would conflict with Bob. However I don't see any NoSB in that list so I'm confused that he didn't manage to find his way back in.

I'd also suggest that cavern of souls might want to find its way into your manabase since it can support B for your threats in a control matchup while still paying the 1 for Lilliana, equipment, and pact. I suppose you might run into some issues with it in the current incarnation because your creatures are heavily color dependent as opposed to being a bit more flexible.

Edit2: Somehow missed the line about Bob.

Menteith
07-29-2012, 10:47 PM
Shouldn't the first question be: Why aren't you playing a more Bob friendly build?

Edit: I assume if your initial attempt was to play with NoSB that it would conflict with Bob. However I don't see any NoSB in that list so I'm confused that he didn't manage to find his way back in.

I'd also suggest that cavern of souls might want to find its way into your manabase since it can support B for your threats in a control matchup while still paying the 1 for Lilliana, equipment, and pact. I suppose you might run into some issues with it in the current incarnation because your creatures are heavily color dependent as opposed to being a bit more flexible.

Edit2: Somehow missed the line about Bob.

Frankly, it's because Dark Confidant is awful in the bad match ups, and good in the strong match ups. The deck has serious problems against Red Aggro (Bump Burn, Red Affinity, Boros/Cat Sligh), and in those instances, Dark Confidant is (at best) a speed bump who chumps a Goblin Guide, and at worst loses you the game. The deck usually does alright against more midrange lists that are around, and the loose scattering of combo and control decks, where Dark Confidant has time to shine. He also is really, really bad with Phyrexian Obliterator (who is fantastic in almost every match up) and Tomb Stalker (ditto).

kwis
07-29-2012, 11:24 PM
How many cards do you typically have in your hand?

Sounds like you're looking for SoWP, SoLS, or maybe even a Basilisk collar to smooth out that matchup.

I personally love nighthawk but unfortunately he still dies to lightning bolt and helix.

Menteith
07-29-2012, 11:35 PM
No, what I really want is Jitte, but alas. :frown:

In general, the issues are in the early game. The deck works fine if I can stabilize around turn 4, but there's no guarantee that I'll make it there and be above ~5 life. I'm strongly considering moving Thoughtseize to the board, but I can't find a decent black early game spell to replace them with that would be useful in most matchups. Oh, Treacherous Pit-Dweller, why couldn't you have been good....

Without any mana acceleration, the earliest I'm getting an active Sword is turn 4, and that means that I'm spending Turn Three doing nothing, instead of casting Liliana/Gatekeeper/Shade Pumping, and I can't use Slaughter Pact before turn 5 if I want to equip ASAP.

Kich867
07-30-2012, 12:42 AM
I feel like those should be flags--you're playing tempo, you shouldn't be running equipment in this package. Gatekeeper's of Malakir are a pretty awesome tempo swing, Tidehollow Sculler is good too.

You should look at creatures like Serra Avenger, Obliterator and Shade seem a little too hard and a little too bad. Drop everything over 3cmc and add Bob's and maybe vial's.

Something like this:

//Creatures:14
3x Serra Avenger
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tidehollow Sculler
3x Gatekeeper of Malakir

//Spells: 17
2x Zealout Persecution
4x Lingering Souls
2x Slaughter Pact
4x Path to Exile
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Thoughtseize

//Planeswalkers: 3
3x Liliana of the Veil

//Artifacts:
4x Aether Vial

//Lands:
~22 lands

I feel like you essentially want to be making a port of Dead-Guy Ale, Serra Avenger will be doing most of the work, but with Aether Vial there on turn 1 you can now focus on doing things with your mana while still being able to present a board. You also get Avenger in a turn earlier which is pretty relevant.

Menteith
07-30-2012, 01:14 AM
Figuring out exactly what the deck wants to be, is something that I still need to do. Most of the time, the build that I've been running has taken on a control role outside of very specific matchups (like Tron). Calling it Tempo was a bad call on my part, and I don't want to shackle myself to card choices based on the random name I through of for this thread - it's probably closer to the FloresBlack lists from Urza Block. With that out of the way, the list you posted is going to have a pretty serious problem against Green/Red/x (Jund and whatnot) and Pod. Phyrexian Obliterator and equipment are slower, sure, but they also actually let you swing into things like Kitchen Finks without cringing. Phyrexian Obliterator specifically has been good for me in almost every matchup - the biggest complaint that I could see leveled against it is that it doesn't play well with a manabase.