BUG Fish

[bfeingersh]

For lack of a better opening thread, I'd like to continue the discussion we were having in the general discussion board. Here's my current list for BUG Fish (modified from Alexandre Darras's BoM6 top 8 list):

Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Trygon Predator

Disruption:
2 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm
2 Mental Misstep
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Mystic Remora

Draw/Tutor:
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
3 Preordain
1 Gush
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll

Busted:
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Mana:
5 Mox
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Flusterstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Dismember
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Yixlid Jailor
3 Nature's Claim

I'm very happy with this list for facing shops and other blue decks, but I feel unfavored against creature decks, especially noble fish.

[socialite]

I'm going to copy and paste my original response as the points still have merit and no one really responded to it.

Ben,
If I were you I would probably drop Gush for Mystic Remora #3 and Merchant Scroll for JtMS #2. Dark Confidant coupled with Mystic Remora is a solid choice for our local meta (Control, Combo, and Workshops).

Despite a few bigger names running Gush with Remora, I found the synergy between the two more detrimental then beneficial. Gush isn't well positioned enough to run a straight Gro build and to be honest a lot of those builds were super greedy running both Dark Confidant and Gush.

Merchant scroll is clunky with Remora and rather lacking considering your target selection.

If you want to run a miser's Strip Mine OK but cut the Wasteland for a basic Island and adjust the dual to basic ratio. You almost certainly want a basic Forest out of the board as well. The mana base in it's current form is just asking for punishment.

Overall you seem to be taking the list in multiple directions at once, it lacks focus and it will cost you games.

Unfortunately I'm not sure what you can do to improve the Bant match. Noble has a superior clock and removal compared to BUG. You have to pick your battles; traditionally BUG based fish/control shells do well at handling the control and combo matches where Bant rules the fish and workshop kingdom. Fortunately Noble Fish doesn't make up a significant portion of our meta.

[Arianrhod]

I think I would consider cutting the maindeck Hurkyl's as well - trimming Scroll removes a tutor for it, and if it's just floating in the void with only Vampiric and Demonic to grab it, I don't feel that's optimal. I'd look at a 3rd Misstep, a 4th Preordain, or possibly a 4th Goyf.

You could try to run Massacre in your board for Noble, I suppose. It doesn't hurt you as much as them, because Trygon and Goyf will live through it, whereas it will wrath their Qasalis, Hierarchs, Meddling Mages, etc. Knight of the Reliquary is a problem, if they're running him, but I don't know that there's much you can do about him other than not letting him resolve.

[bfeingersh]

I'm going to copy and paste my original response as the points still have merit and no one really responded to it.

Ben,
If I were you I would probably drop Gush for Mystic Remora #3 and Merchant Scroll for JtMS #2. Dark Confidant coupled with Mystic Remora is a solid choice for our local meta (Control, Combo, and Workshops).

Despite a few bigger names running Gush with Remora, I found the synergy between the two more detrimental then beneficial. Gush isn't well positioned enough to run a straight Gro build and to be honest a lot of those builds were super greedy running both Dark Confidant and Gush.

Merchant scroll is clunky with Remora and rather lacking considering your target selection.

If you want to run a miser's Strip Mine OK but cut the Wasteland for a basic Island and adjust the dual to basic ratio. You almost certainly want a basic Forest out of the board as well. The mana base in it's current form is just asking for punishment.

Overall you seem to be taking the list in multiple directions at once, it lacks focus and it will cost you games.

Unfortunately I'm not sure what you can do to improve the Bant match. Noble has a superior clock and removal compared to BUG. You have to pick your battles; traditionally BUG based fish/control shells do well at handling the control and combo matches where Bant rules the fish and workshop kingdom. Fortunately Noble Fish doesn't make up a significant portion of our meta.

I added Scroll with Gush and I've been very happy with them. I could see adding a 3rd Remora or 2nd Jace, but I'd rather cut the Hurkyl's for one or the other rather than cutting the Scroll package.

I cut Academy and the basic Forest for the Strip/Waste. I never really wanted to fetch the forest, and it ended up being more detrimental than useful since I never felt like I was getting wasted off green. If not for Gush I think I'd like a Bayou in the list, but it may have been a few isolated situations recently in which grabbing one would have been nice.

Is Darkblast too slow? As a one-of it sounds neat for breaking the symmetry in Goyf/Trygon mirrors and as well as Noble, Thalia and generic Bob/Snapcaster control matchups.

[socialite]

I added Scroll with Gush and I've been very happy with them. I could see adding a 3rd Remora or 2nd Jace, but I'd rather cut the Hurkyl's for one or the other rather than cutting the Scroll package.

I cut Academy and the basic Forest for the Strip/Waste. I never really wanted to fetch the forest, and it ended up being more detrimental than useful since I never felt like I was getting wasted off green. If not for Gush I think I'd like a Bayou in the list, but it may have been a few isolated situations recently in which grabbing one would have been nice.

Is Darkblast too slow? As a one-of it sounds neat for breaking the symmetry in Goyf/Trygon mirrors and as well as Noble, Thalia and generic Bob/Snapcaster control matchups.

What scenario is Merchant Scroll into Gush a worthwhile line of play within the context of Fish's overall path to victory?

Fish decks seem to win on the back of small tempo plays rather then high investment plays and combo turns.

For reference here is the original list:

Business (37)
4 Force of Will
2 Mental Misstep
2 Flusterstorm
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
3 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Trygon Predator
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Blighsteel Colossus

Mana Sources (23)
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Forest

Sideboard (15)
2 Dismember
2 Trygon Predator
3 Nature’s Claim
2 Flusterstorm
2 Yixlid Jailer
4 Leyline of the Void

To me the most interesting part of this list is that it isn't really a Fish deck at all. It's a combo control deck running a creature package to shore up the Workshop, Landstill, Remora, and Aggro matches. While this list doesn't have an increased number of Merchant Scroll targets compared to your list; Scroll is justified because of the flexibility it provides within different lines of play. Using Merchant Scroll to fetch a Brainstorm when you have two Dark Confidants on the table is within reason as is fetching a Flusterstorm or Force of Will to protect a high investment line of play such as Tinker and Yawgmoth's Will. From my perspective it seems as though you have removed a lot of the power plays that make cards like Merchant Scroll and Yawgmoth's Will relevant.

It's also worth noting that the main deck forest is a concession to matches where mana denial is prevalent (Fish, Landstill, Workshops). It speaks volumes of the necessity of having a solid mana base in Vintage and I think it would be foolhardy to ignore this fact especially when you bank on your tertiary color so hard in the aforementioned matches.

Right now you are halfway between Control and Fish. In my honest opinion I think you need to ask yourself what you are trying to do within the confines of the meta, where you should be, and adjust accordingly.

[Koby]

I agree with Ertai's Familiar. A lot of the elements in the OP look like remnants of a more combo-based list that tries to get a Tinker-bot or Time Vault going with some beatdown to hold down the other Fish decks. Without Tinker, the deck looks like it just durdles around with Gush. Yawgmoth's Will also seems to lose a ton of power in this list.

Adding more Jace, and maybe some other forms of disruption like Thoughtseize might help it get a more Fishy feeling.

[socialite]

Few options...

Go back to combo control/try another control route (Remora) or a more traditional aggro control route (Gro).

Focus on tempo - add resource denial and more threat/offensive redundancy.

[socialite]

Any updates Ben?

[bfeingersh]

Any updates Ben?

Not really, I decided to try RUG this week over BUG and was happy with it.