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Arianrhod
08-03-2012, 02:09 PM
I'll throw my list up here alongside everyone else's decks as we establish this area of the forum

Bomberman has a fairly long history, but has been largely gone from Vintage (in the States, anyway) for some time. Previously, I played Oath....going from Elephant, to Sun Titan, to Rune-Scarred Demon. But I grew frustrated after two and a half years of drawing my creatures constantly, so I looked for something better. Trinket Mage has always been one of my absolute favorite creatures, so I started there, and found Bomberman shortly thereafter.

Justin Kohler has been having success with Bomberman in the Northeast for a few months now. Here's his latest list: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8751&iddeck=63868

It's worth noting that his list is straight U/W. When I was originally researching the deck, I found some versions that had splashed black for additional tutors and sideboard options, and I decided to go with that approach. Thus, Esper Bomberman:


3x Jace TMS
1x Tezz the Seeker

3x Trinket Mage
3x Auriok Salvagers
3x Snapcaster Mage

3x Mana Drain
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Snare
2x Mental Misstep
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Vamp Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Brainstorm
1x Merchant Scroll
1x Time Walk
1x Tinker
1x Repeal

1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Emerald
1x Black Lotus
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Crypt
1x Time Vault
1x Voltaic Key
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Aether Spellbomb
1x Sensei's Divining Top

2x Island
1x Plains
2x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
2x Underground Sea
2x Tundra
2x Cavern of Souls
1x Tolarian Academy
1x Library of Alexandria

//Sb
2x Devout Witness
3x Energy Flux
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Yixlid Jailer
2x Massacre
2x Flusterstorm


Tinker->Robot did nothing but disappoint me in this deck, so I trimmed out the robot in favor of Repeal, which has already done more for me than the stupid critter ever did. I left Tinker in as a tutor for Vault/Key or for pieces of the bomber combo, depending on my board state....but it has been underperforming in that role, so I'm thinking about trimming out Tinker and Crypt....probably in favor of a 3rd Spell Snare and something that I don't know yet. Maybe a maindeck Flusterstorm -- it seems like it has a bit of trouble against Gush Storm, but I'm not sure that a 1-of Fluster is the solution for that. The 3rd Snare might not be necessary, but as vintage gets more popular, I expect to see more and more Fish decks, and Stony Silence, while beatable, is obnoxious -- thus the Witnesses in the sideboard. Kind of a strange answer for Stony Silence, I know, but it does work quite nicely...and it has a good effect vs Shops as well.

I do love some AK, but I kind of feel that trying to squeeze AK in would be pretty greedy and would probably just be too clunky to actually work. Bob would probably be better, if anything.

But yeah -- there's my baby =)

Solaran_X
08-07-2012, 08:23 PM
I'm not too familiar with.Bomberman. I know it used to win with Pyrite Spellbomb - how does it win now after it does it's thing?

aahz
08-07-2012, 09:29 PM
From this list, it looks like draw with a spellbomb to get Vault/Key then either Jace/Tezz ultimate or just poke opponent to death with creatures. I could be missing something though. Is decking yourself ever an issue or does the tutor density usually give you enough cards after finding Vault/Key to win?

Solaran_X
08-08-2012, 12:34 AM
From this list, it looks like draw with a spellbomb to get Vault/Key then either Jace/Tezz ultimate or just poke opponent to death with creatures. I could be missing something though. Is decking yourself ever an issue or does the tutor density usually give you enough cards after finding Vault/Key to win?
Seems like it would be better to win on the spot with Pyrite Spellbomb, unless you're really worried about Leyline of Sanctity or Witchbane Orb. Vault/Key and either Planeswalker are fine win conditions, don't get me wrong. But I could just feel better winning that turn. And if a Leyline of the Void is out, then your entire combo is borked anyway - not just that particular win condition.

Perhaps the OP or someone else familiar with the deck can enlighten me as to why Pyrite Spellbomb isn't used anymore.

Arianrhod
08-08-2012, 10:57 AM
I'm not going to pretend that I know a massive amount about the deck either, lol. As I noted in the OP, I've only been playing it for upwards of half a year or so. So far, there have been a few games where I've missed having the Pyrite, but at the same time, I'm having a hard time justifying the slot when I should usually be able to win after having gone infinite. That said, people usually scoop to infinite, and if I actually had to play out my games more, I might come closer to milling out. Pyrite's one of those cards that I would like to be in the deck, but until I go infinite, it just doesn't do anything. I'm almost never going to have the red for it, so it's just a 2-mana cantrip, and space is tight enough as is....I have a lot of things I would like to put in the deck, and I just don't know where to shave space. I could trim a Salvagers, but 3 has actually been the perfect number for me. Part of that might be my local meta, which is infested with fish decks that have an abnormally high amount of removal maindeck, so having redundant copies is good for me beyond just comboing out sooner. Also, 4 toughness is massive in vintage.

I have made a few changes to my list since posted -- Shawn Griffiths talked me into putting in 3 Bobs. I was originally planning on cutting Tinker and Crypt anyway, and he agreed. I'm left with a much more fishy deck that I really wanted, but I do appreciate the card advantage from Bob. I'll update the OP when I get home.

Another option RE Spellbomb is that I have seen some old, old Bomberman lists that ran a 1-of Cunning Wish in the maindeck as a "immediate" win condition -- the Bomberman combo generates infinite storm as a natural result of the combo, and then as you draw your deck you draw into Cunning Wish, wish for Brain Freeze, and win. I'm assuming this fell out of favor due to Oath's surge in popularity. I feel like running Death Wish and grabbing Tendrils would be better, honestly....still feels kind of janky to me, but it's that kind of janky that might be partially decent. I dunno.

socialite
08-08-2012, 12:28 PM
I'm not too familiar with.Bomberman. I know it used to win with Pyrite Spellbomb - how does it win now after it does it's thing?

Historically Bomberman is an aggro control deck that in my experience excels in meta games predominately made up of other aggro decks and workshops.

Pyrite Spellbomb has been run in the past but is considered to be inferior to Aether Spellbomb.

The deck wins by playing the long game and grinding victories much like Landstill. The combo route typically revolves around using infinite mana from Auriok Salvagers to clear the board and alpha strike with a Time Walk after playing out a number of creatures. The Brain Freeze and Pyrite Spellbomb versions are inferior and at the time considered fringe.

I've never liked the black splash and Time Vault plus supporting cards really should be cut. I'd argue straight U/W Bomberman is one of, if not the best shell for Jace, the Mind Sculptor in modern Vintage.

Anusien
08-08-2012, 01:04 PM
Aether Spellbomb can go out. Deck needs more Yawgmoth's Will and Gifts Ungiven. Also get a Blightsteel Colossus in there. You are actually going to have trouble getting enough damage in without a robot.

Pyrite Spellbomb was never correct. The way the deck used to win was to to make infinite mana with Salvagers/Lotus, then bounce their board with Aether Spellbomb/Engineered Explosives, then play all your creatures, cast Time Walk and win. Because the individual cards in Vintage are so powerful, you can't afford to waste even a single slot. Pyrite Spellbomb was basically a complete blank except for when you go off (it could kill Welders, but that's not something you were really needed to do). Aether Spellbomb had the most utility of all the spellbombs. Nowadays you don't even need that because Nihil Spellbomb is actually not a blank. More often than not I just cycled Aether Spellbomb.
The reason you don't want Cunning Wish is twofold. The first is that there's a serious opportunity cost on using it. The second is that being a Trinket is not insignificant. Basically any time you can generate infinite mana you win, even if you don't have NIhil Spellbomb. Your win condition being fetched by Trinket Mage is a big part of that though.

I don't remember my last list, but it was probably something like this:

4 Trinket Mage
2 Auriok Salvagers
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Mana Drain
1 Hurkyl's Recall

4 Gush
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm

1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault

1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Fastbond

1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta

It is actually incorrect that Bomberman was good against straight aggro decks. It is an aggro-control deck, and so it tends to do well against straight control and combo and struggle against aggro and workshops. Null Rod is a huge pain, and it has an inability to deal with large creatures. I've played Wrath and various Angels in the sideboard to compensate.

For what it's worth:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=22078
My T8 the last weekend Gifts was a 4x.

socialite
08-08-2012, 01:26 PM
It is actually incorrect that Bomberman was good against straight aggro decks. It is an aggro-control deck, and so it tends to do well against straight control and combo and struggle against aggro and workshops. Null Rod is a huge pain, and it has an inability to deal with large creatures. I've played Wrath and various Angels in the sideboard to compensate.

Perhaps it's because I'm friends with GI but I have a different experience with the deck. I never thought the workshop/fish matches were very difficult and the control match was decent except for the Grey Ogre Drain sink that made those pairings difficult (Cavern of Souls seems like an interesting way around this). It's always been a dog to Oath and I never felt favored versus a competent combo player.

Anusien
08-08-2012, 01:34 PM
Perhaps it's because I'm friends with GI but I have a different experience with the deck. I never thought the workshop/fish matches were very difficult and the control match was decent except for the Grey Ogre Drain sink that made those pairings difficult (Cavern of Souls seems like an interesting way around this). It's always been a dog to Oath and I never felt favored versus a competent combo player.
Yeah, Oath was historically a big issue if they were prepared. You had a variety of ways to beat them, but they had inevitability and strategic superiority.

Workshop was pretty good when they were all on Wasteland and Thorn of Amethyst and no Null Rod because you could just play Trinket Mage and make land drops, then you could just Hurkyl's them and win. I haven't faced the newer versions.

In terms of straight-up Dark Ritual combo decks, you're as much as a dog as any other control deck and have access to all the same tools. You can run all these chants and everything, but you're still basically a Drain deck. That said, in both aggro and combo matchups, I'd rather err on being a more controlling/comboish deck than an aggro deck. Having Will, Gush, Gifts, etc makes you more of a combo deck which makes you more vulnerable to control, but better against other combo decks and control decks. I personally have a very good win rate against beatdown decks, but that's largely the result of running SB Wraths.

Bill Copes
08-08-2012, 01:37 PM
As a long time workshop player, I've got a mostly losing record against Bomberman: lots of basics and permanents that create card advantage are some of the best tools against shops. Post-board, U/W has a ton of options to utilize against you. Granted, the majority of these matches took place before the printing of Lodestone Golem, so my experience/opinion may be a tad skewed. Shops became a LOT more aggro than they used to be.

Anusien
08-08-2012, 01:39 PM
It also depended on whether they can beat Colossus. DSC was my principle win route against them.

Arianrhod
08-08-2012, 03:44 PM
I honestly feel like Tinker (esp. into Blightsteel) is opening yourself up unnecessarily in modern vintage. Maze of Ith, Phyrexian Metamorph/Sculpting Steel, Swords/Path, Hurkyl/Rebuild/Chain of Vapor/Jace are literally everywhere. Time Walk is obviously good against almost all of that, but I don't like that Tinker almost necessitates Walk. Maybe I have a dim view of things, but I really see Tinker/Robot as more of a liability because you can sink a lot of resources into that plan, only to have it backfire horribly. Tinker is good against Null Rods, I'll grant, but I like Anusien's plan of sideboard fat dudes more in that matchup (although, again, the prevalence of removal seems to suggest that such a plan wouldn't work as well today as it did then).

I also intensely dislike Yawg Will in this deck. Obviously it's better with the Gush engine, but I'd really rather not chance exiling something that I'm going to need. The fundamental inability to combo off during your Will turn is pretty miserable [again, Time Walk, but again, you -have- to have Walk available at that particular moment for this to work].

I actually still like Aether Spellbomb, since having a second bomb allows me to combo off sooner without unnecessarily durdling while my opponent has a chance to pull something out of his ass, and bouncing Lodestone Golems feels pretty good. Lodestone isn't really that dangerous of a Sphere because it doesn't shut down infinite mana, unlike Sphere and Thorn, but not taking 5 every turn and forcing them to re-use their mana to recast him feels like a second Time Walk sometimes. Ditto Tarmogoyf, bouncing Scavenging Ooze before going off, a flipped Delver, Tinker, an Oath dude, rebuying a Trinket Mage or Snapcaster, etc. It feels like Aether still has a lot of utility.

I've read a lot of conflicting views on black splash vs U/W (from the past, obviously). After trying both versions locally and on Cockatrice, I definitely prefer the black splash. U/W is certainly a fine choice as well, but the black splash feels like it fits my general playstyle more.

E_F, can you elaborate on why you don't like Vault/Key? It seems like a deck that's already running so many Trinket Mages (/Salvagers can get back a countered or destroyed Key) would love Vault/Key.

Anusien
08-09-2012, 11:02 AM
The last few times I took Bomberman to a tournament, I won with Tinker->Colossus, beats and combo in roughly equal proportions. The only single card that contributes so much to winning is Lotus.

Yawgmoth's Will is actually insane. Who cares if you exile your Black Lotus and can't combo that game? You don't HAVE to do it, but if you do it, you win. Basically, you never resolve that card and lose. And it's trivially easy to set up Time Vault/Key and take infinite turns if you Will. Honestly, you have it backward; I'm not worried about Will exiling my value cards. I'm more worried about having to burn Time Walk or something early and not being able to cast it later when I need it. It was not uncommon to cast an early Time Walk then combo off and then eventually cast Will to rebuy Time Walk (this was pre-Time Vault).

If you want the second way to combo off, the correct card is Engineered Explosives, not Aether Spellbomb. I activated Aether Spellbomb to bounce probably 1/10 games I got it out (and wasn't comboing; obviously if you combo you win no matter what it is).

If you don't run Vault/Key, it's because you want other ways to beat Null Rod decks. Adding it makes the deck even softer to Null Rod.

socialite
08-09-2012, 11:56 AM
E_F, can you elaborate on why you don't like Vault/Key? It seems like a deck that's already running so many Trinket Mages (/Salvagers can get back a countered or destroyed Key) would love Vault/Key.

There are a few things I do not like about your current build; I will do my best to elaborate during coffee break.

From my perspective Bomberman has been most successful in fish, workshop, and dredge environments. While technically it is classified as combo control its success is deeply rooted in the silver bullet tutor package and its ability to play the aggro control game.

Traditionally Bomberman has had issues dealing with opposing combo control lists because the majority of its business revolves around sorcery speed interaction. Running a Trinket Mage/Salvagers into an opposing counter magic can be a death knell. If you succeed at landing afore mentioned card/s you are often left in a position of non interaction during your opponents turn. This concept can be applied to all high investment high reward plays i.e. Tinker -> Blightsteel, Time Vault -> Key.

Long story short, if you want to play the combo control there are far superior shells in modern Vintage in which to house Time Vault.

@black splash:

Bomberman built correctly contains a lot of redundancy. Weakening the mana base (which has always been a strategic strongpoint) to include Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor, and Yawgmoth’s Will is fool hardy and hits some major diminishing returns as the tutor package is superfluous/Bomberman has difficulty leveraging Yawgmoth’s Will.

I love Dark Confidant in a straight combo control however, I found Bomberman unable to capitalize on the card advantage to a point where the game could be won before the life loss turned into a liability.

I’m not a huge fan of Nihil Spellbomb being the primary combination piece either. I can get behind the concept of moving graveyard hate main to save space and give some value against dredge game one. Unfortunatly Graffdigger’s Cage seems to be the correct target in almost every game one scenario. The relevance of a single crypt effect against dredge, combo, and control is overrated as well. Aether Spellbomb has a far greater number of applications, many of which you have listed.

If I were to play Bomberman today I would most likely run something similar to the following.

1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
3 Island
1 Plains
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
2 Auriok Salvagers
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Trinket Mage
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm/Mental Misstep/Spell Pierce/Spell Snare
2 Flusterstorm/Mental Misstep/Spell Pierce/Spell Snare
2 Flusterstorm/Mental Misstep/Spell Pierce/Spell Snare
4 Mana Drain
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Time Walk

1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Seal of Cleansing
3 Serenity
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 xxx

I apologize if this comes off as a little scatter brained and I would be willing to delve further into discussion.

Anusien
08-09-2012, 12:15 PM
Disagree. I've had a ton of success in heads up play against other Drain decks. For one thing, you have more ready access to Black Lotus, and so are more able to jam a powerful spell down their throat with Drain backup. For another, you can put pressure on them and force them to go first. Historically, Bomberman had such success because it stomped Control Slaver (and later Gifts).

Ideally things should play out like this: turn 2 or 3 you cast Trinket Mage, fetching Black Lotus. You play it and pass. You now have Drain backup, and you can play two back-breaking spells in one turn.


It is kind of funny that you cut cheap cards and instants and then complain that it's sorcery speed only. Sure, if you run 3 Jace, you're going to run into Mana Drain a lot more than if you had Gush or 1 and 2 mana tutors in those slots.

Like I said, I activated Aether Spellbomb in less than one in ten games I played and not comboed. I was happy to cut it.

socialite
08-09-2012, 01:09 PM
Disagree. I've had a ton of success in heads up play against other Drain decks. For one thing, you have more ready access to Black Lotus, and so are more able to jam a powerful spell down their throat with Drain backup. For another, you can put pressure on them and force them to go first. Historically, Bomberman had such success because it stomped Control Slaver (and later Gifts).

Ideally things should play out like this: turn 2 or 3 you cast Trinket Mage, fetching Black Lotus. You play it and pass. You now have Drain backup, and you can play two back-breaking spells in one turn.

I’d argue on the back of Aven Mindcensor and liberal access to Tormod's Crypt. It’s worth noting that the format was intrinsically different due to the availability of Thirst of Knowledge and Brainstorm.

This is also a best case scenario for Bomberman, requiring being on the play and with a Mox even then you’re netting a Grey Ogre for zero mana. A single Grey Ogre is not much of a clock and I imagine even the weakest of pilots could execute their game plan in the face of a 2/2. More often than not that Grey Ogre is a juicy target that fuels a game win for the opponent.


It is kind of funny that you cut cheap cards and instants and then complain that it's sorcery speed only. Sure, if you run 3 Jace, you're going to run into Mana Drain a lot more than if you had Gush or 1 and 2 mana tutors in those slots.
I’m playing to strengths, whereas you opt to run Gush which oddly enough is significantly more powerful when played at Sorcery speed. It is worth noting that end of turn Gush is not a spell that breaks blue mirrors. The only instants I cut from your list are Mystical Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, and Hurkyl's Recall - color me unimpressed.


Like I said, I activated Aether Spellbomb in less than one in ten games I played and not comboed. I was happy to cut it.
I’ve tested the deck within the past three months and I found Aether Spellbomb relevant across many matches and at worse cycles for 2 colorless.

It's pretty obvious you and I play the deck on a fundamentally different level. It seems as though you’re stuck in the Gift’s era combo control mentality in an age where better shells exist and Bomberman is down three Thirst for Knowledge/Brainstorm.

FuturePerfect
08-09-2012, 01:51 PM
Disagree. I've had a ton of success in heads up play against other Drain decks.

Individuals may have different results, and Bomberman does have some strong tools against control (esp now that they're heavy on JTMS and there're better counters like flusterstorm). However, strategically Bomberman is a dog to combo control. This is even more stark when up against opposing mana drain decks. The reasons are pretty intuitive:

(1) It has a higher mana curve, it runs more 3 & 4 drops, making it slower to hit critical turns
(2) Most of its threats are sorcery speed, this means that especially in a stack-fight with other mana drain decks that Bomberman has fewer strategic options
(3) Its win conditions are slower or more interdependent (re: multiple card combos)
(4) It has a weak draw engine

The thing that most characterizes Bomberman (Salvager & Trinket Mage) are what are its biggest liabilities here.

This doesn't mean you can't compete with other blue decks. It does mean it'll be your play skill (and meta cards, if you pack extra flusterstorms, etc) that get you through. Another angle here is to go heavy on Aven Mindcensor or to splash black for duress/thoughtseize.

Right now is an excellent time to play Bomberman exactly because mana drain control is at a relative low.

Anusien
08-10-2012, 02:53 PM
I am honestly not that worried about getting a Trinket Mage drained into some massive thing.

A) The number of Mana Drains are down. They're kind of slow against Shops, especially on the draw. A lot of people are cutting them for cheaper hate.
B) The things they can drain into aren't scary. It's not like they're casting Thirst for Knowledge and making a Mindslaver. The scariest things around right now are probably Planeswalkers, and you're better equipped than most decks to fight Planeswalkers. Especially since a lot of Mana Drain decks are cutting Time Vault, so it's just Jace.
C) If they are draining our Trinket Mage, they're not draining our Jace or Gifts or Salvagers. If the opponent is considering Trinket Mage a threat to Mana Drain, then we have significantly higher threat density than other blue decks.

FuturePerfect
08-12-2012, 09:33 PM
I am honestly not that worried about getting a Trinket Mage drained into some massive thing.

That seems like a rather cavalier position in a format with the most degenerate cards in magic.


C) If they are draining our Trinket Mage, they're not draining our Jace or Gifts or Salvagers.

Actually these scenarios are not mutually exclusive.


then we have significantly higher threat density than other blue decks.

It really depends on what lists you're referring to (for each side), but the Bomber lists I've seen in T8's are the most reactive (and threat light) lists outside of Landstill.

Arianrhod
08-13-2012, 10:18 AM
It really depends on what lists you're referring to (for each side), but the Bomber lists I've seen in T8's are the most reactive (and threat light) lists outside of Landstill.

/Agree. This is one reason I prefer the Esper lists -- they've got a much higher threat density. I've got a local tomorrow night...will be trying the list with the Bobs squeezed into it and see how I like them.

I do feel like Spell Pierce might be a good decision again, due to the prevalence of Shops (especially Martello). The format seems to like to oscillate between Flusterstorm and Spell Pierce, at least in my general meta.

socialite
08-13-2012, 12:31 PM
The threat light - high reactive lists seem to perform better in comparison.

Spell Pierce may be viable again but it is not because of Martello's presence. In fact it's rather terrible against Martello.

Jblaze4lif
08-23-2012, 11:00 AM
Im interested in Building a Bomberman list UWB build I like the Dark Confidant to help vs the Workshop heavy meta. I see it is common to include 2 snapcaster and 2 swords to help vs Golems and RUG Delver.

Thoughts on running Baleful strix vs snap this way we can keep the 1 of grafdiggers cage.


2 Salvagers
3 trinket Mage
4 Dark confidant
2 Baleful Strix
2 Jace

Beware
08-23-2012, 01:41 PM
Also for the sake of completion, Vintage Champs 2012 quarter-finalist, Michael Gouthro's Esper Bomberman list:

2 Cavern of Souls
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea

2 Auriok Salvagers
4 Dark Confidant
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Trinket Mage

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Black Lotus
1 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
2 Mental Misstep
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Time Vault
1 Time Walk
1 Voltaic Key
1 Yawgmoth's Will

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Sideboard
2 Energy Flux
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Plains
1 Spell Pierce
1 Steel Sabotage
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Yixlid Jailer

Beware
08-25-2012, 02:30 PM
To spark discussion, how does this deck not scoop to Stony Silence? Gouthro has no answers in his 75. Did he manage to dodge Fish all day? In theory, we just beat down with our Bobs and Magi, but Fish simply plays more dudes. I'd like to improve this matchup, but don't want to splash green. Maybe Wispmare? But then what comes out? I'm looking for an answer to a resolved one, not more counter magic.

Jblaze4lif
08-25-2012, 02:35 PM
I like the common sideboard of 3 Disenchant 3 Steel Sabotage/Hurkyl recall better than Kataki and Energy flux.

Jblaze4lif
08-27-2012, 03:56 PM
Michael Gouthro's Esper Bomberman list:

Was mox Emereld not played bc he doesn't own it or bc the deck is maxed out for colorless mana sources.

The deck could def abuse Library but having the extra mox can lead to quicker combos and little faster trinket.

Arianrhod
08-28-2012, 01:23 PM
The off-color Mox also makes Explosives better. I suspect it was an availability concern. Not everyone can always find full power. I would definitely add the Emerald, probably at the expense of the 5th fetch. He's running pretty land-heavy, at 17.

voltron00x
09-02-2012, 10:19 PM
Pretty sure the four Mox thing is intentional, see Mike Egan's 1st place build in a proxy event: http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1615&highlight=1#place1

Deck should definitely play Disenchant in the SB, though bringing it in vs. Fish seems borderline miserable.

By the way, great discussion in this thread. I really like this deck.

Anusien
09-04-2012, 01:21 AM
Did Mike Egan also really play 61 cards?

His deck is missing many of the traditional blue bombs (Tinker, Gifts), but still.

The lists without Blightsteel Colossus, I really wonder if they run the risk of not being able to do enough damage post-combo. Maybe everyone just scoops to Spellbombs though.

socialite
09-04-2012, 10:16 AM
The lists without Blightsteel Colossus, I really wonder if they run the risk of not being able to do enough damage post-combo. Maybe everyone just scoops to Spellbombs though.


Is it necessary? Both UWb and UW lists run a sufficient number of creatures to win pre or post combo. Tinker/Blightsteel continues to be a trap for blue pilots in a prepared meta. From my perspective Tinker as a line of play has lost a great deal of value against many of the archetypes it was once successful at combating.

Anusien
09-04-2012, 11:23 AM
Bomberman is the only Vintage blue deck with enough artifacts to support Tinker that doesn't run it. It helps deal with our weakness to Null Rod/Stony Silence. It deals with opposing Tinkers. It provides a quick clock in the window you get from resolving Hurkyl's Recall against Workshop decks. It's one of the easiest ways to race Dredge. It provides a pretty thorough answer to randomness and random aggro (some of the deck's biggest weakness).

Jblaze4lif
09-04-2012, 12:35 PM
Which bot would you run? Blightsteel or Myr Battleshpere with Bobs. Myr can be easily casted with a drain.

Koby
09-04-2012, 01:14 PM
Which bot would you run? Blightsteel or Myr Battleshpere with Bobs. Myr can be easily casted with a drain.

I typically prefer Battlesphere as the Tinker-bot. Mostly because I like having ways to killing an active Jace in case I get in that situation. It's still a good clock, even though just a bit slower. It's much better against Stax (... like anyone plays that) and against W/x aggro (STP). Much more versatile and can be used in more situations than the mere BSC.

Anusien
09-04-2012, 05:50 PM
Which bot would you run? Blightsteel or Myr Battleshpere with Bobs. Myr can be easily casted with a drain.
Without the extensive testing to prove that Battlesphyr is correct, I would just run Blightsteel.

voltron00x
09-04-2012, 08:53 PM
Without the extensive testing to prove that Battlesphyr is correct, I would just run Blightsteel.

I loved Battlesphere vs Shops, then they printed BSC and Metamorph, and now I'm not so sure. I know why people are anti-BSC and to an extent I agree, many decks are prepared. Still, and I say this w/out testing, I would play Tinker somewhere in this 75, probably with BSC. Its still a source of so many free wins, despite the times where it doesn't win sticking out in people's minds.

aahz
09-05-2012, 01:03 AM
I don't play Bomberman, so take this with a grain of salt. I'd go with with BSC here, IF you need to run Tinker/Bot main. As for siding it, what would you bring it in against other than maybe Dredge? On the other hand, I agree with voltron00x that I'd at least run Tinker somewhere (it does find lotus or spellbomb for your combo anyway even without BSC).

However, as a general discussion of Tinker Bots, I see the merits of running Battlesphere in some decks. It really depends on the support cards. For example, Koby's deck definitely wants Battlesphere over BSC. The thing about that deck though is that he has not just Drains to support hardcasting Battlesphere, but also Welders. Without that kind of propping up, I think you have to, unfortunately :frown:, choose BSC for the "oops, I win" scenarios and stealing games vs. Dredge.

Anusien
09-05-2012, 11:55 AM
I would want Tinker->Robot against Stax, Dredge, Fish and other random aggro decks.

Hitman82
09-06-2012, 01:19 AM
Did Mike Egan also really play 61 cards?

His deck is missing many of the traditional blue bombs (Tinker, Gifts), but still.

The lists without Blightsteel Colossus, I really wonder if they run the risk of not being able to do enough damage post-combo. Maybe everyone just scoops to Spellbombs though.

He doesn't need to attack post-combo. He can take infinite turns with VaultKey and Jace for the win. He may not be playing Blightsteel because of Dark Confidant.

Anusien
09-06-2012, 01:26 AM
You can't always take infinite turns to Jace them out: it depends on how many cards are left in your library after you find a Jace. And then they still have to take turns to draw the rest of their library and deck; so if you're dead on board for some reason that doesn't bite it to EE, that may not help.

Arianrhod
09-06-2012, 10:03 AM
That almost sounds like support for Pyrite Spellbomb, lol. I actually run a Tezz in my list partially for this purpose. He's also good to Drain into, and he's a 2nd Voltaic Key / tutor for Time Vault, which can be important sometimes.

I can't say as I've had any trouble winning via infinite turns...people usually scoop, and when they don't, I can just go beatdown. With 11 creatures in deck, Jaces, and Tezzeret, I don't get why winning is a problem. I could see putting Tinker/Bot in your board for certain matchups, like to board in vs Shops when you take out the Salvagers, but I just don't see it being necessary maindeck.

@Matt Elias: it's a shame you don't have the time to write articles anymore. Would you have the time to draft up a list and share your thought process/card selection choices with us? I'm very curious what your opinions are regarding the archetype.

socialite
09-06-2012, 10:37 AM
@Matt Elias: it's a shame you don't have the time to write articles anymore. Would you have the time to draft up a list and share your thought process/card selection choices with us? I'm very curious what your opinions are regarding the archetype.

I believe he pliots Egan's list.

That being said Tezz is horrible, not sure why you play it.

Anusien
09-06-2012, 01:29 PM
Pyrite Spellbomb was never correct, since all it does is combo. Tinker-robot does something sweet when you're not comboing.

Tezzeret is a fine card if you can find the room and are running Vault-Key. I am not actually sure Vault-Key are correct. I am torn because Trinket Mage can easily tutor up Voltaic Key, but I want to minimize the deck's vulnerability to Stony Silence. Last time I seriously looked, a lot of the top blue decks were actually cutting Vault-Key because of how vulnerable they were to Null Rod.

It is kind of embarrassing how bad the versions without Tinker seem against Fish. You can't beat a resolved Stony Silence (at least you could Hurkyl's a Null Rod, that was a fine card to maindeck), their creatures tend to be bigger than yours, and they can punch out your Jaces fairly easily.

At least they don't have an Islandwalker any more, so they probably can't beat the various Angels.

Jblaze4lif
09-06-2012, 02:27 PM
What matchups do you guys take out the Salvagers? I'm trying to squeeze in the Tinker and Bot in my UWB build but it's so hard. I'm running

2 Salvagers
4 BoB
2 Snap
3 Trinket
2 Jace

I don't want to drop any of those maybe my Thirst for knowledge and 1 of the 2 Swords. Maindeck 3 combos seems fun.

Anusien
09-06-2012, 02:32 PM
I don't take out Salvagers in any matchups.

Arianrhod
09-06-2012, 02:33 PM
What matchups do you guys take out the Salvagers? I'm trying to squeeze in the Tinker and Bot in my UWB build but it's so hard. I'm running

2 Salvagers
4 BoB
2 Snap
3 Trinket
2 Jace

I don't want to drop any of those maybe my Thirst for knowledge and 1 of the 2 Swords. Maindeck 3 combos seems fun.

I take them out vs Shops and nothing else. But then it seems like everything I do is wrong, so...:rolleyes:

Also, that's the same creature configuration I'm running. I want a 3rd Salvagers sometimes, but I dunno where I'd squeeze it in =(

Jblaze4lif
09-06-2012, 02:34 PM
Pyrite Spellbomb was never correct, since all it does is combo. Tinker-robot does something sweet when you're not comboing.

Tezzeret is a fine card if you can find the room and are running Vault-Key. I am not actually sure Vault-Key are correct. I am torn because Trinket Mage can easily tutor up Voltaic Key, but I want to minimize the deck's vulnerability to Stony Silence. Last time I seriously looked, a lot of the top blue decks were actually cutting Vault-Key because of how vulnerable they were to Null Rod.

It is kind of embarrassing how bad the versions without Tinker seem against Fish. You can't beat a resolved Stony Silence (at least you could Hurkyl's a Null Rod, that was a fine card to maindeck), their creatures tend to be bigger than yours, and they can punch out your Jaces fairly easily.

At least they don't have an Islandwalker any more, so they probably can't beat the various Angels.


I would like to keep the vault key combo still I will run some disenchant sideboard if I feel it is needed to combat stony silence.

I like Disenchant + Steel Sabotage better than flux and katak. Has anyone tried both and opinions?

Jblaze4lif
09-06-2012, 02:41 PM
I don't take out Salvagers in any matchups.

End of turn Hurkyls then combo off with salvagers would still work for sure.

kratos
09-13-2012, 09:48 AM
I have played the UW list for a while and have recently been testing a UWB list. It has been far more resilient and combos off more consistently. I enjoy running Key/Vault as it just makes the deck even better. Here is my list so far:

2 Auriok Salvagers
3 Trinket Mage
4 Dark Confidant
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Acenstral Recall
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Brainstorm
2 Path to Exile
1 Flusterstorm
2 Mental Misstep
3 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
1 AEther Spellbomb
1 Sol Ring
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island

I am still working on the sideboard, but I do prefer the Steel Sabotage/Disenchant plan of Kataki and Enery flux as they are better both early and late game whereas the Kataki/Energy Flux isn't as potent late game.
I am running Path over Swords because giving them a bunch of life when I have to attack in with 2 powered creatures for the win is not that great.
Also, the AEther Spellbomb Will probably get swapped for a Nihil Spellbomb. They both have their pros and cons, but I am still not so sure.
Any thoughts?

Arianrhod
09-17-2012, 03:34 PM
Pretty sure that the printing of Rest in Peace mandates the Disenchant plan now.

Anusien
10-16-2012, 04:48 PM
Pretty sure that the printing of Rest in Peace mandates the Disenchant plan now.
I never boarded in removal for graveyard hate in the past (even Leyline of the Void), I don't anticipate starting now.

Tinker->Colossus is a great answer to Rest in Peace :D

Beware
10-17-2012, 12:47 AM
So, I've been testing variants of this deck for a good while. The most consistent thing I find with this deck is that I hate Salvagers. It blocks everything all the time, but Trinket Mage mostly does that on its own. Salvagers never trades with Goyf or even Golem so it just ends up preventing some residual damage from Bobs and a Zombie. This deck plays so many dudes as is, a 2/4 isn't as useful as it used to be. The secondary function of Salvagers is the actual Bomberman bit, but just how useful is a 3 card combo that relies on packing your deck with extra 4 drops? I've passed the turn with infinite mana far more times than i am comfortable. He's nearly uncastable versus Delver and the combo almost never goes off against MUD. Am I the only one hating him more every day?

Anusien
10-17-2012, 10:41 AM
Try attacking with him.

Beware
10-17-2012, 11:21 AM
I do that frequently too. It's still almost never better than a Trinket Mage.

PS: i'm not looking to sway others away from the deck, i'm genuinely interested in sparking discussion about Salvagers place in the meta. I wonder if Trinket Mage control is actually viable or just wishful thinking. At present i'm trying Baleful Strix control as Strix crushes the Tempo and Shops matchup.

Jblaze4lif
10-17-2012, 08:23 PM
I love Salvagers with Cavern of souls. Being uncounterable along with Trinket and Bob is pretty awesome

Beware
10-19-2012, 12:57 AM
The deck as a whole offers a wealth of synergy, but i'm just concerned that the soldier is too low impact right now.

socialite
10-20-2012, 12:05 PM
The deck as a whole offers a wealth of synergy, but i'm just concerned that the soldier is too low impact right now.

Salvagers is 2 slots. It's a wall against aggro, blocks Dark Confidant/Snapcaster Mage, and can take a hit from a Blightsteel Colossus. In conjunction with Black Lotus it will win on the spot. It's a source of permanent and card advantage against mana denial/attrition strategies. Seems fine to me.

Beware
10-20-2012, 07:05 PM
It also costs four mana, makes taking mulligans awkward and frequently gets stranded in your hand. It also doesn't trade with a lot of problem creatures like Lodestone Golem which doesn't help a matchup that is already unfavorable. It also does nothing against tempo. I also fail to see where the card advantage comes in. Occasionally it's good against Smokestack, but that's about it. Recurring EE is awesome, but happens so rarely.

socialite
10-21-2012, 07:33 AM
It also costs four mana, makes taking mulligans awkward and frequently gets stranded in your hand. It also doesn't trade with a lot of problem creatures like Lodestone Golem which doesn't help a matchup that is already unfavorable. It also does nothing against tempo. I also fail to see where the card advantage comes in. Occasionally it's good against Smokestack, but that's about it. Recurring EE is awesome, but happens so rarely.

A two slot four drop creature makes mulligans awkward... this isn't a point of contention and is a pretty weak argument for cutting Auriok Salvagers. Even if you play a god awful sideboard (like the one from Worlds) it's hard to imagine that the Workshop match is unfavorable for Bomberman; it hasn't been for the past 7 years. You complain about tempo disparity against creature decks as a Drain based aggro control list running Dark Confidant. If this is too difficult of a match up for you I hate to tell you it doesn't get any better than running Dark Confidant. There's a rather significant long term tempo gain associated with not committing mana to a draw engine this is especially relevant when the majority of those tempo match ups swing mana denial as one path to victory. You can do much more with Salvagers than recycle Explosives I still board Aether Spellbomb as a sub for Nihil Spellbomb in match ups where its interactivity is low. The number of plays with Aether and Salvagers even outside of a combo turn is staggering.

socialite
12-15-2012, 10:54 AM
Thought it would be prudent to point out that both the UW and UWb versions of this list have been tearing up the northeast meta for quite a while now. It's worth noting that the successful lists have been devoid of Tinker and only the UWb version utilizes Time Vault/Voltaic Key. Bomberman seems like an excellent choice going forward.