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KevinTrudeau
08-06-2012, 09:49 AM
Though I've never even played a hand of Vintage Dredge, it was slightly irritating to me that one of the better decks in the format (so I hear) was absent from the awesome new Vintage section on the Source, so I thought I'd make a thread. I cannot offer much advice concerning the nuances of the Vintage archetype, though I can provide winning lists from fairly recent tournaments. Lastly, before I get to posting those lists, a tip from an expert (myself) regarding proper play: apparently, you're supposed to mulligan/Powder away all hands without Bazaar of Baghdad.

Bazaar of Moxen 2012 winning list, Dredge (without Dread Return), by Erik Hegemann
Link to Eric Hegemann's Report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?23872-20-05-12-BoM-6-Vintage-Mainevent-and-bonus-First-place-in-Vintage-with-Dredge)

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder

4 City of Brass
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Petrified Field

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
2 Darkblast

4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
3 Ichorid

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Ingot Chewer
1 Ancient Grudge

SB: 4 Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Wispmare
SB: 4 Unmask

Gen Con 2011 Vintage Champs winning list, Dredge (with Dread Return), by Mark Hornung

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder

4 Undiscovered Paradise
3 City of Brass

1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lotus Petal

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
2 Dakmor Salvage

4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
3 Fatestitcher
2 Ichorid

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return

3 Sun Titan
1 Flame-kin Zealot

1 Ancestral Recall

SB: 4 Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Darkblast
SB: 2 Firestorm
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

[Koby's Edit: Added link to Eric's report]

aahz
08-06-2012, 12:29 PM
Based on the idea by Solaran_X of putting forward the MUD Box, I'm going to outline the core engines in Dredge and examine some of the customizable packages that can be integrated into the deck. As I see it, the core of the deck is as follows:

The Bazaar/Dredge Engine
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2-3 Golgari Thug
1-3 Darkblast
0-2 Dakmor Salvage

Not much to say. The single most efficient way to dredge is with Bazaar of Baghdad. Period. It must be found at all costs. And you can't dredge very well without dredgers. Most decks run 11-13 dredgers in the main deck. Details of Thug/Blast/Salvage combinations are mostly due to either personal preference or metagame considerations. Each of the 3 subsidiary dredgers has its own quirks. Darkblast is good at dealing with Yixlid Jailer or clearing the way before dumping Bridges in the yard. Thug has a trigger when it hits the yard from play and feeds Ichorid. Salvage can be used to hit landfall and cast black spells if necessary. It is also nice to be able to dredge carefully in smaller amounts while slow rolling around hate or to avoid decking.


The "Free" Creature Engine
4 Bridge from Below
3-4 Cabal Therapy
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
2-3 Ichorid

These are the true engine that makes dredge go because they actually do something besides fill your graveyard. The whole Bazaar/Dredge engine is really just to enable this. Therapy acts as both disruption and cog in the machine. I've seen lists that run only 3 maindeck, but I'm nearly certain that it is wrong to not have the full playset somewhere in the 75. The number of Ichorids is based on metagame and which packages you're running.


Mana/Landfall
4 Undiscovered Paradise
3-4 City of Brass

Even if you don't plan to cast any spells, land drops trigger Bloodghast, so lands besides Bazaar are necessary. Pretty much any spell you're actually going to cast only costs one, but the colors vary so rainbow lands are essential. If only 3 Cities are in the main, the 4th is in the side. Some builds include more land (see below).

This typically works out to be 44-48 non-negotiable cards leaving 12-16 flex slots for metagaming/customization. Below are outlines of the general types of packages that can be included in the maindeck. It is possible to play multiple minimal packages, though most decks seem to choose 1 or 2 to include. Often only some of the cards listed below in each category are played at the same time as part of the package; my goal is to list the cards you'd want to have around for deck building, so I'm being overly inclusive. Usually the final decisions involve weighing the trade offs between being consistent, resilient, disruptive, or fast. Since you generally can't have all of these at the same time, choosing the correct medium for your particular meta and playstyle is the key.

Customizable Dredge Packages:

Reanimation
1-3 Dread Return
1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Angel of Despair
1 Terastodon
1 Griselbrand
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths
1-3 Sun Titan

Some consider Dread Return as part of the main engine, but many recent lists have dropped DR completely. While there are many variations on this package, it basically consists of using Dread Return as an additional sacrifice outlet to reanimate either a Golgari Grave-Troll, a combo finisher, or a utility creature. The simplest version just crams 1-2 DR in the maindeck with Grave-Troll as the usual target. Combo finishes usually require at least 2 DR along with either Zealot or Flayer. DR also allows for shenanigans with Sun Titan to return Bazaars from the graveyard for turn 2 kills (in conjunction with a combo finish). Utility creatures (Elesh Norn, Angel, Terastodon) for the DR package are typically in the sideboard, though often the entire DR package is sided out after game 1. Older versions used card draw such as Sphinx of Lost Truths to keep the dredging going, but this has largely been supplanted by the use of Sun Titan and Fatestitcher if speed is important. However, Griselbrand provides a potentially powerful option, though the consensus is far from clear on this one (leaning currently toward "don't run Griselbrand").


Speed
2-4 Fatestitcher
x Restricted cards (Black Lotus, Lion's Eye Diamond, Mox Sapphire, Lotus Petal, Ancestral Recall, Brainstorm)

The point here is to be fast in game 1. And by that I mean Really Fast! I've goldfished many turn 2 kills after mulling to 2 or 3 with this package and turn 1 kills are possible. This is pretty much always played alongside the DR combo package with Sun Titan and Zealot/Flayer. The amount of restricted cards varies. The idea is that unearthing Fatestitchers and/or DRing Sun Titans gives you more Bazaar activations to keep dredging until you can win on the spot. Fast mana to play either broken draw spells or unearth Fatestitcher while still playing Bazaar as your land drop make the turn 1 kills possible, but a turn 2 kill is doable without them.


Extra Draw/Dredging
2-4 Street Wraith
2-4 Gitaxian Probe

These are extra "Draw a card" effects to speed up the dredging process by allowing dredging on turn 1. They aren't quite in the same league as the Speed package, but they still show up in deckists from time to time. Street Wraith has the advantage of not being a spell and being a black creature for Ichorids, while Probe provides information about the opponents gameplan/hate and enhances Cabal Therapy.


Extra Mana
1-2 Gemstone Mine
1 Riftstone Portal

Even though you can win without playing any spells at all, sometimes you need more mana. 1-2x Gemstone Mine is usually sufficient, but there are lists that run a Riftstone Portal to make Bazaar produce mana for Nature's Claim, Wispmare, or flashing back Ancient Grudge (though admittedly this is rare).


Disruption
4 Leyline of the Void
3-4 Unmask
4 Chalice of the Void
1-4 Mental Misstep

Disruption is pretty straightforward: Move slower, but stop your opponent on the way. This is frequently played instead of the full fast combo (Fatestitcher/Titan/Zealot), though it can still work along with a simpler DR package with Zealot. Leyline of the Void deserves special mention because it does several things for the dredge deck: breaks the mirror, stops other decks' graveyard plays (Will, Snappy, Welder, Crucible), and also protects your Bridges against creature decks.


Anti-hate
2-4 Ingot Chewer
1-4 Nature's Claim
1-4 Mental Misstep
1-2 Ancient Grudge
1-4 Petrified Field

When you expect hate in Game 1, it is usually correct to run some anti-hate in the maindeck. What you run depends on what you might face. I've include Mental Misstep here also because it counters Grafdigger's Cage and Relic of Progentitus (and also protects your other anti-hate from being misstepped). Current "Cagebreaker" versions run Chewer/Grudge to deal with Grafdigger's Cage, but many people also run Field to protect Bazaar in Wasteland heavy metas (as well as get more landfall for Bloodghasts).


Sideboarding consists mostly of having versatile anti-hate and swapping packages. Siding for Games 2 and 3 is often quite different based on what your opponent is doing and what hate cards you see. Anti-hate and disruption overlap with the corresponding maindeck packages. Commonly seen sideboard choices include the following (though there are certainly many others):

4 Chain of Vapor
4 Nature's Claim
2-4 Ingot Chewer
2-3 Wispmare
1-2 Ancient Grudge
1-3 Darkblast
2-4 Petrified Field
1-4 Mental Misstep
1-3 Firestorm
1-2 Serenity
4 Leyline of the Void
3-4 Unmask
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Cabal Therapy (if not 4x main)
1 City of Brass (if not 4x main)
1-3 Gemstone Mine

While far from exhaustive, this is hopefully a useful starting point for deck building and/or discussion, especially for those new to the Dredge archetype in Vintage. Let me know if I missed something or you have any comments. I'm no dredge expert, but I have been playing the deck recently and wrote this up to help me think through deck building options.

Klazam
08-06-2012, 03:16 PM
Awesome. This is gonna be my thread. I'll be posting the list I have now (I have no vintage experience- but I'm trying to get in the format) i'd like to see if there is anything I'm doing wrong with the deck.

Brot_Ohne_Kruste
08-06-2012, 04:52 PM
Awesome. This is gonna be my thread. I'll be posting the list I have now (I have no vintage experience- but I'm trying to get in the format) i'd like to see if there is anything I'm doing wrong with the deck.

Hi there,

the only thing you can do wrong with the deck - speaking of the non-DR-version - is to fear the Powder activation. This deck is build to be consistent, therefore it is likely that'll win even if you exiled a good amount of your deck. It doesn't normally matter, if you removed all Narcomoebas or all Bridges from Below, even though it's pretty unlikely ;-). The point is: Use it.

Another thing is that I don't really like the Dread Return version. They tend to be faster, but haven't got so much space to play Sideboard cards in the Maindeck, which are, in my eyes, needed; especially with the printing of Cage.

The other point is to not forget the triggers, but this one you should learned by playing the Legacy build, I guess ;-).

Koby
08-06-2012, 05:14 PM
I think this is an important thread in this forum for particularly the reason that Adam mentioned above - it's very necessary to test with and against this deck to have a complete understanding of Vintage. I myself ran a Bazaar list before New Phyrexia was printed, so my knowledge with the deck was prior to Cage and Mental Misstep, both of which radically change the look of the deck.

Maybe those in the know can help to fill in some details. How does the recent cards (Misstep, Cage) affect the way the deck plays? I've noticed more hate-cards being played maindeck now.

aahz
08-06-2012, 09:55 PM
I was actually going to start this thread today anyway (I had most of my first post already typed up), but KevinTrudeau beat me to it by a few hours. The two lists he provides are actually a great preface to what I was getting at as they show two very different directions the deck can go.

I'm starting to get this sinking feeling that deep down I'm really a dredge player at heart and am only now coming to realize it. :confused:

I'm not sure how I feel about this development. Of course, it's probably too early to rule out other hypotheses. Maybe I just got sick of Bobs and Snapcasters since they have been so prevalent at the last few tournaments I've been to. Maybe it's just that there are so many creatures around that the only sensible solution is Zombies! Could this just be a phase? All I know is that I just can't seem to get excited about playing Big Blue these days, but suddenly dredge is really fascinating. What's wrong with me?

Klazam
08-07-2012, 03:04 AM
What I have built in front of me is this list. Keep in mind I have 0 vintage experience, and I built this from scratch, using my knowledge of what usual dredge lists has. What I can't understand is why my deck is so different from the lists posted above. I know that the plan is to A) drop Bazaar in the first turn of the game, and start dredging. I do not understand why the above lists run so many rainbow lands.

Please show me what is not effective in vintage. (I like force of will out of the side, is it a workable thing, or is it bad? why? )

Maindeck:

Mulliganers:
4 Serum Powder

Draw Spells/Lands:
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
2 Breakthrough

Lands/fast mana:
4 Underground Sea
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lion's Eye Diamond

Dredgers:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
2 Darkblast

Graveyard "Spells":
3 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Fatestitcher
4 Bridge from Below

Recursive Creatures:
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast

Dread Targets:
2 Sun Titan
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Force of Will
3 Mindbreak Trap
----------------------------------------------------------
A note: Is it possible to keep hands without Bazaar? Should I?

hellhound
08-07-2012, 06:03 AM
hi everybody, i've been playing this deck in last 2 years in 10 -card proxy tournaments and online. finally admins added a vintage section to this wonderful forum!!

btw, @klazam:
you should never, never, never keep a hand without bazaar in g1; also in 2 years i think i kept 3/4 hands without bazaar in g2/3...
first of all non-Dreturn list are more consistent than DReturn lists (you can serum powder without any kind of worries); secondly, you just don't need it. if they won't keep a hand with 3-4 hate cards they just won't win because of your consistency and also DReturn is overkill 90% of times.
It s like legacy quadlazer: "why winning on turn 2 with an unstable deck when i can compromise strongly your board & hand on turn 2, win on turn 3 playing one of the most consistent deck in the format?"
please don't misunderstand me, also more-comboish versions work, they're just less resilient to hate.

list i'm actually playing:

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
2 Petrified Field
4 City of Brass
4 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Dakmor Salvage
4 Serum Powder
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Darkblast
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Ichorid
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ingot Chewer
SB: 3 Wispmare
SB: 4 Unmask
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 4 Chain of Vapor



my 2cents

ps: sorry for my english, it isn't my 1st language

aahz
08-07-2012, 09:20 PM
What I have built in front of me is this list. Keep in mind I have 0 vintage experience, and I built this from scratch, using my knowledge of what usual dredge lists has. What I can't understand is why my deck is so different from the lists posted above. I know that the plan is to A) drop Bazaar in the first turn of the game, and start dredging. I do not understand why the above lists run so many rainbow lands.

Please show me what is not effective in vintage. (I like force of will out of the side, is it a workable thing, or is it bad? why? )

-snip decklist-

A note: Is it possible to keep hands without Bazaar? Should I?
In reverse order:
As noted previously, you NEED Bazaar. Do not keep hands without Bazaar (unless you are on the draw and KNOW that your topdeck is Bazaar, which is impossible if you are not cheating). If we could keep non-Bazaar hands, we wouldn't need Serum Powder. The only way to change this is build a deck more akin to the Legacy version, but then you'd have to actually cast spells and open yourself up to getting blown out by Force of Will, Mental Misstep and spheres. Even if this was viable in Vintage, it would be a effectively different deck as a result.

Undiscovered Paradise is also a landfall engine for Bloodghast. You definitely want it even if all you do is float mana on opponent's end step so you have another land drop to recur 'ghast(s). Theoretically, you can skimp on the Cities in the maindeck, but then they take up space in your sideboard. You can also cast Therapy or a Narcomoeba/Thug stranded in your hand (or pay for a flashbacked spell under a sphere, and the list goes on for corner case scenarios that could come up in Game 1). Probably more importantly, Rainbow lands cast anti-hate cards. The last tournament I played in, I was wishing I had EVEN MORE land often enough that I think I'm going to try to cram a Gemstone Mine or two into my list.

Based on your list, I'm guessing that you haven't tested much with an actual opponent who boards for dredge. Games 2 and 3 are miserable if you can't deal with the hate. 4x Chain of Vapor and a few Forces are just not enough (IMHO your deck cannot consistently support FoW well enough to be worth running, try Unmask in it's place). What specific anti-hate to actually run is obviously very context dependent and an open question, but I'm confident that anyone who does well with dredge is playing a minimum of 15 such cards in the 75 (and quite possibly even more). It took me a while for this to really sink in for me as well. The flashy stuff is amazing when goldfishing (and I LOVE playing it myself), but with all the diversified hate now and people learning to play against dredge, it usually just isn't worth the space it takes up. I had to get annihilated in playtesting sideboarded games to understand the situation. It's not an accident that many top lists these days play with some anti-hate main and forgo Dread Return completely. (as an aside, if you like the DR shenanigans, check out the older Sharuum/Altar/Portal lists; those are hilarious).

A couple of questions you should ask yourself about your list:
1) Can you deal with Grafdigger's Cage in Game 1? Many decks have multiples main.
2) Do you always mull to Chain of Vapor+Mana in sideboarded games? 'cause that's your only out to turn 0 Leyline and seems pretty unreliable.

Klazam
08-08-2012, 02:13 AM
Bingo. Thank you. That was exactly what I needed.

So basically, hate in vintage is even worse than legacy. All right. I'll change around stuff, but I don't know how I can play test sideboarded games... Any suggestions?

Koby
08-08-2012, 02:27 AM
Bingo. Thank you. That was exactly what I needed.

So basically, hate in vintage is even worse than legacy. All right. I'll change around stuff, but I don't know how I can play test sideboarded games... Any suggestions?

The hate is varied (much like Legacy), but people go into tournaments prepared NOT to lose to Dredge. Much like in Legacy, you'll still be able to outplay most opponents based on triggers assuming you can free yourself out of hate.

I've ran a combination of permanent based removal (Nature's Claim / Ingot Chewer / Wispmare) and bounce in the past. Yixlid Jailer is played more in Vintage than Legacy, likewise with Leyline of the Void, and now Grafdigger's Cage. Fighting through countermagic is also a problem. For that reason, Unmask seems to be getting more popular to strip counters, then clean up the hate, activate Bazaar and fire off a few zombies. I've also seen some interesting tech with Serenity to completely muck Shop's hate packages.

I could be dead wrong too, but that's my impression from before Dark Ascension.

aahz
08-08-2012, 03:22 AM
Bingo. Thank you. That was exactly what I needed.

So basically, hate in vintage is even worse than legacy. All right. I'll change around stuff, but I don't know how I can play test sideboarded games... Any suggestions?
Every once in a while I can talk B.C. into playing a match vs. Dredge, but it can be hard to find people who are willing to test it (though it might help if you suggest only playing sideboarded games so they don't have to suffer through Game 1 if they have nothing maindeck). Another idea that I use occasionally is to make a list of hate cards you expect to see in a tournament and number them (e.g. 1-Cage, 2-Leyline, 3-Crypt/Spellbomb, 4-Relic, 5-Jailer). Get a die that has a couple more sides than you've got numbers (like, say, a d8 in this example). Sideboard for game 2 (when you usually don't know exactly what type(s) of hate you're going to face yet) and get ready to goldfish, but roll the die at the start of each game to determine what type of hate your goldfish opponent mulled to and plays on turn 0/1 (if you roll a higher number, then reroll twice for the 2 pieces of hate to play around). This basic idea can be adjusted as needed (such as 6 = 2 more rolls; 7 = reroll + counterspell; 8 = reroll twice + counterspell). There are problems with this approach (it's hard to simulate playing versus Ravenous Traps, for example), but I think it's a reasonable starting place to get your bearings with regard to how various hate cards affect your game. Don't forget to think about hate that isn't obviously directed at the graveyard (we need Bazaar, remember) such as Wasteland and Pithing Needle. I also usually change my sideboarding for Game 3's because you should hopefully have either won the match or have some idea of what specific hate to expect.

Another thing that can be important is what to name with Cabal Therapy. Unfortunately, I'm really bad with that (this is why I like Unmask) so I can't help you there (but maybe others have some suggestions).


The hate is varied (much like Legacy), but people go into tournaments prepared NOT to lose to Dredge. Much like in Legacy, you'll still be able to outplay most opponents based on triggers assuming you can free yourself out of hate.

I've ran a combination of permanent based removal (Nature's Claim / Ingot Chewer / Wispmare) and bounce in the past. Yixlid Jailer is played more in Vintage than Legacy, likewise with Leyline of the Void, and now Grafdigger's Cage. Fighting through countermagic is also a problem. For that reason, Unmask seems to be getting more popular to strip counters, then clean up the hate, activate Bazaar and fire off a few zombies. I've also seen some interesting tech with Serenity to completely muck Shop's hate packages.

I could be dead wrong too, but that's my impression from before Dark Ascension.
Sounds reasonable. You can't really go wrong with Chain/Claim/Chewer/Wispmare. Darkblast takes care of Jailers, as can Firestorm. The more recent trend of lots of Grafdigger's Cage is beneficial for us because it means less Leyline and is easier to play around than much of the other hate. Don't forget that you CAN keeping dredging through a Cage to set up an alpha strike. Besides Unmask (and Therapy naming counters) running your own Mental Missteps can also be useful vs. some counterspells. I like the idea of Serenity, but I suspect it's less good in practice because it costs AT LEAST 2 mana and they will have Wastelands and possibly spheres. Claim/Chewer seem like they are less likely to get shut out and help in other matchups, too. I haven't tested much versus Shops though, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

Dresden
08-14-2012, 02:33 PM
No Griselbrand lists? I'm looking to play a bit more Vintage and looking to start with Dredge. Is there a consensus on DR/No-DR esp with Griselbrand?

aahz
08-14-2012, 06:39 PM
No Griselbrand lists? I'm looking to play a bit more Vintage and looking to start with Dredge. Is there a consensus on DR/No-DR esp with Griselbrand?
We have just been through a period where removing the Dread Return package to make room for more disruption and artifact hate maindeck has been in vogue. However, recent lists are starting to dial back disruption/hate a touch and slip a small DR package back in (usually 2xDR and 1-2 targets other than Grave-troll; see here (http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1625&highlight=Dread_Return) and here (http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1620&highlight=Dread_Return)). There are still many recent top 8's with DRless lists though (see here (http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1623&highlight=Bazaar_of_Baghdad) and many instances of the popular "cagebreaker" list such as this one (http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1626&highlight=Bazaar_of_Baghdad)). Note that current (until Friday) Vintage Champ Mark Hornung's list above is the cagebreaker version with a DR package squeezed back in.

As for Griselbrand, I think I remember seeing one dredge deck top 8 with a single copy though I can't seem to find it now (maybe it was a Legacy list?). I don't like Grizzly in dredge for several reasons (which has kept me from testing it, so what I'm about to say is more theory than actual results). First, if you are in a position to DR, you are usually in decent shape making a huge amount of additional dredging win more and frequently you'll just go for the Zealot combo kill (this is, however, not always going to be the case; see below). Note that to have 3 creatures to sac, a DR in the yard, and Grizzly in the yard you probably already had to dredge more than half your deck, so dredging 7 more times is just overkill (and you'll probably need to be counting your cards, have multiple small dredgers ala Salvage/Darkblast, and worry about losing to an opponent's Ancestral). Second, you must have 8 or more life for Grizzly to dredge right away (unless you can DR a Zealot, too, but if that's the case I guarantee Grizzly is win more). Third, for the times when you DO want a DR target that enables more dredging, Sun Titan is just better because he provides more options and does not require life to work. Sunny can return a Bazaar to dredge (or Field to get Bazaar if you want more even more landfall triggers), a rainbow land to cast disruption/anti-hate, or even just an Imp or Narcomoeba to block/sac for more zombies.

The point is that Sunny has more tricks and enables additional dredging adequately enough. The only situation where I think I'd rather have Grizzly is if I needed to feed an Ichorid. Even in a corner case scenario where I need to block and kill a flyer, Titan into Stinkweed should generally be good enough.

Koby
08-14-2012, 06:54 PM
The point is that Sunny has more tricks and enables additional dredging adequately enough. The only situation where I think I'd rather have Grizzly is if I needed to feed an Ichorid. Even in a corner case scenario where I need to block and kill a flyer, Titan into Stinkweed should generally be good enough.

Sun Titan is a better target when Bazaar of Baghdad is concerned. It has more synergy with the rest of the deck by triggering Landfall, being able to recover after a g/y nuke by returning flyers or other lands. An example: you can beat Ghostly Prison with Sun Titan, but not Griselbrand. Bonus points for flawless victory - attacking with Bridge from Below on the battlefield. :tongue:

aahz
08-14-2012, 07:26 PM
Bonus points for flawless victory - attacking with Bridge from Below on the battlefield. :tongue:
OMG! That is best idea EVAR! My Russian Bridges are now demanding that I go back to the DR version. I cannot rest until I complete this important mission.

You know what would be even better though? Running Leyline of Anticipation, so you can DR in response to a graveyard nuke/opponent's creature hitting the bin to save a Bridge only to Nature's Claim/Wispmare it back down to keep on trolling. If only that were actually viable...

John Cox
09-28-2012, 01:11 AM
So dredge is awesome.

My current list is

4 bazaar of baghdad
4 serum powder
4 golgari grave-troll
4 stinkweed imp
2 golgari thug
1 darkblast
4 leyline of the void
4 cabal therapy
3 ingot chewer
1 ancient grudge
1 bojuka bog
4 bridge from below
4 narcomoeba
4 bloodghast
3 ichorid
4 petrified field
4 city of brass
1 undiscovered paradise
1 dakmor salvage
3 Fatestitcher

//sideboard
4 wispmare
4 nauture's claim
4 contagion
2 ancient grudge
1 ingot chewer

The real tech is Bojuka Bog, I fetch it out with Petrified Field in the Ichorid mirror, giving me virtually 9 pieces of grave hate + the three Ingot Chewers, and Fatestitchers.
My sideboarding is pretty simple. Against everything but Ichorid I take out 4 Leyline and 3 Fatestitchers and bring in 4 Nature's Claims and 3 Contagions, game three I adjust as necessary.
Against Ichorid I take out the Fatestitchers, Ingot chewers, Dakmor Salvage and Ancient Grudges and bring in 4 Wipsmares and 4 Nature's Claims.

thoughts?

aahz
09-28-2012, 02:28 AM
Bojuka Bog is interesting. It seems a little slow, but I'm all for trying new things. I wish I saw enough Jailers as hate to justify playing Contagion (I love that card!).

How has the Ancient Grudge been working out for you? I've seen that in a few lists, but I can't figure out exactly what it's useful against. You can't cast it against Cage from the yard, and two mana to cast from hand is tough with this deck (especially your mana configuration). Is it just to force Crypt/Relic/Spellbomb activations when you'd prefer them?

Fatestitcher is fun, but do you feel like you have enough mana for it? I guess Field gets you back Cities/Paradise, but I'm skeptical because sometimes even with 4xCity and 4xParadise plus some Fields I still want a random Gemstone Mine (or something like Lotus/Petal) to consistently have enough mana for hate/Fatestitchers. Some combination of Street Wraith/Mental Misstep or 2xDR and a Sun Titan might serve you better with your mana set up (or just more mana?).

Speaking of which, Really only 1 Undiscovered Paradise? They work so well with Bloodghasts that it seems like skimping on Cities might be better if you're going to go that route. Although, if you are intending to cast Ancient Grudge from hand, I can see the thinking here (but I'd still rather have have Paradise and swap Grudge for something else). I think you need more land because Field into City/Paradise is unreliable in the face of hate in games 2/3 (and also takes 2 non-bazaar land drops in any case).

Finally, do you feel like there is sufficient disruption with just Cabal Therapy? Some combination of Mental Misstep and Unmask seems good, especially in a slower versions without Dread Return (it appears to me that your mana isn't consistent enough to have Fatestitcher speed you up enough to skip on additional disruption).

I hope I'm not coming across as overly critical; those are just the questions that pop up as looked at your list. I always like checking out lists that are different from mine. I've been playing around with Noxious Revival recently as a fun (and unexpected card) for Dredge.

John Cox
09-28-2012, 05:02 AM
Bojuka Bog is interesting. It seems a little slow, but I'm all for trying new things. I wish I saw enough Jailers as hate to justify playing Contagion (I love that card!).

How has the Ancient Grudge been working out for you? I've seen that in a few lists, but I can't figure out exactly what it's useful against. You can't cast it against Cage from the yard, and two mana to cast from hand is tough with this deck (especially your mana configuration). Is it just to force Crypt/Relic/Spellbomb activations when you'd prefer them?

Fatestitcher is fun, but do you feel like you have enough mana for it? I guess Field gets you back Cities/Paradise, but I'm skeptical because sometimes even with 4xCity and 4xParadise plus some Fields I still want a random Gemstone Mine (or something like Lotus/Petal) to consistently have enough mana for hate/Fatestitchers. Some combination of Street Wraith/Mental Misstep or 2xDR and a Sun Titan might serve you better with your mana set up (or just more mana?).

Speaking of which, Really only 1 Undiscovered Paradise? They work so well with Bloodghasts that it seems like skimping on Cities might be better if you're going to go that route. Although, if you are intending to cast Ancient Grudge from hand, I can see the thinking here (but I'd still rather have have Paradise and swap Grudge for something else). I think you need more land because Field into City/Paradise is unreliable in the face of hate in games 2/3 (and also takes 2 non-bazaar land drops in any case).

Finally, do you feel like there is sufficient disruption with just Cabal Therapy? Some combination of Mental Misstep and Unmask seems good, especially in a slower versions without Dread Return (it appears to me that your mana isn't consistent enough to have Fatestitcher speed you up enough to skip on additional disruption).

I hope I'm not coming across as overly critical; those are just the questions that pop up as looked at your list. I always like checking out lists that are different from mine. I've been playing around with Noxious Revival recently as a fun (and unexpected card) for Dredge.

The contagion is a thing because of scavenging ooze too.

I really like Ancient grudge it's great for forcing the main deck spell bomb everyone has, pithing needle also see's some play, so it deals with that too. It's realistic to just hit time vault or key too. Forcing crypt, relic and spellbomb is common too. I basically I like artifact hate that I know I can cast, and I see the singleton grudge most games.

The idea with the petrified field is that they're never dead, I can return a bog, a bazaar or a city depending on what I need. I see it as superior to all those cards because it essentially is all those cards.

I have just one paradise because I'm low on lands. I can't ramp lands with multiple undiscovered paradise. if I went up to four I could recur bloodghasts but without dread return I don't really need to. I guess I could play gemstone mines or something, but I'm not sure if that would be better than the fatestichers.

The fatestichers may seem weird but I really just wanted to make all my lands into extra bazaars, they do that. I have 13 bazaars if you look at it that way. Most blue vintage decks run 14-16 lands and usually get 1-3 in their opening hand. so I think I'm good.

I'm meta'ing this against workshops and dredge, so the disruption I have is keyed to that. If I was afraid of blue I would play a completely different version of the deck.

aahz
09-29-2012, 01:51 PM
I really like Ancient grudge it's great for forcing the main deck spell bomb everyone has, pithing needle also see's some play, so it deals with that too. It's realistic to just hit time vault or key too. Forcing crypt, relic and spellbomb is common too. I basically I like artifact hate that I know I can cast, and I see the singleton grudge most games.
Seems reasonable. I hadn't really considered nuking Vault/Key (it's easy to get tunnel vision and only focus on hate). I guess I should try a singleton in the Main.


The idea with the petrified field is that they're never dead, I can return a bog, a bazaar or a city depending on what I need. I see it as superior to all those cards because it essentially is all those cards.

I have just one paradise because I'm low on lands. I can't ramp lands with multiple undiscovered paradise. if I went up to four I could recur bloodghasts but without dread return I don't really need to. I guess I could play gemstone mines or something, but I'm not sure if that would be better than the fatestichers.
You seem REALLY low on lands. It looks to me like you can't really ramp lands anyway just because you have so few. I understand why you like Fields (they're awesome in this deck), but it is still slow because it needs 2 land drops (itself, the land you get) before you can get colored mana or a Bazaar activation out of it. You can't play it turn 1 (no bazaar=loss), so turn 3 is the earliest you'll ever see a benefit (other than the landfall trigger for 'ghasts). I'd be really worried about consistently casting anti-hate cards in G2/3. As I've said, I feel like I'm short on mana sometimes when I have 8 rainbow lands in sideboarded games. You can't rely on Field to get you colored mana in the face of hate (what if they've got Leyline?). Also, have you ever had to remove most of your mana sources with Serum Powder to find Bazaar? That seems like a definite possibility with your list.


The fatestichers may seem weird but I really just wanted to make all my lands into extra bazaars, they do that. I have 13 bazaars if you look at it that way. Most blue vintage decks run 14-16 lands and usually get 1-3 in their opening hand. so I think I'm good.
Don't get me wrong, I love playing with Fatestitcher. My questioning of him comes directly from the "but he costs colored mana to activate" and my concerns about your manabase. I've never seen Fatestitcher run in a deck that didn't have 8+ direct sources of U. People usually run stitcher for the extra speed (turn 1-2 kills), but in your deck the extra speed will often not show up until turn 3 because of your manabase. Also, most decks run 7-8 artifact mana in addition to the 14-16 land, so they sometimes keep no land hands (with artifact mana).

John Cox
09-29-2012, 07:31 PM
You seem REALLY low on lands. It looks to me like you can't really ramp lands anyway just because you have so few. I understand why you like Fields (they're awesome in this deck), but it is still slow because it needs 2 land drops (itself, the land you get) before you can get colored mana or a Bazaar activation out of it. You can't play it turn 1 (no bazaar=loss), so turn 3 is the earliest you'll ever see a benefit (other than the landfall trigger for 'ghasts). I'd be really worried about consistently casting anti-hate cards in G2/3. As I've said, I feel like I'm short on mana sometimes when I have 8 rainbow lands in sideboarded games. You can't rely on Field to get you colored mana in the face of hate (what if they've got Leyline?). Also, have you ever had to remove most of your mana sources with Serum Powder to find Bazaar? That seems like a definite possibility with your list.

I also dredge the dakmor salvage to ramp mana but point taken.


Don't get me wrong, I love playing with Fatestitcher. My questioning of him comes directly from the "but he costs colored mana to activate" and my concerns about your manabase. I've never seen Fatestitcher run in a deck that didn't have 8+ direct sources of U. People usually run stitcher for the extra speed (turn 1-2 kills), but in your deck the extra speed will often not show up until turn 3 because of your manabase. Also, most decks run 7-8 artifact mana in addition to the 14-16 land, so they sometimes keep no land hands (with artifact mana).

I assume you would cut the 3 Fatestitcher for lands then? I'd like to keep 2 Fatestitcher in so I would probably go -1 petrified field, -1 salvage -1 Fatestitcher + 3 Gemstone mine.
Unless you see something better to cut.