U/R/B Bob Control

[John Cox]

The holy grail of vintage has always been the draw engine. From Merchant scroll fetching ancestral engine in Meandeck Gifts to the Thirst for Knowledge engine of Tezzeret. The draw engine has been at the top concern for deck builders. When Gush was unrestricted it was immediately assumed that it would supplant any other draw engine available. However the rise of Workshop based strategies has pushed gush out of contention for the time being. Finding a solid draw engine that functions under spheres and still is effective in other matches has led us to...





http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/images/thumb/b/b8/Dark_Confidant.jpg/220px-Dark_Confidant.jpg




Dark Confidant paired with Snapcaster Mage and Jace the Mindsculptor has enabled a draw engine that can also function as a win condition. To utilize these cards a full suite of moxen are run to maximize the chance of a turn one Confidant and early Jace. This makes the deck a welcome home for Tinker and Time Vault .
Another great thing about this configuration is that you will usually have a way of protecting your Jace from slash panthers and many attacking fish/beats creatures. Snapcaster Mage is extra excellent in this role because he can be flashed in and chump and still give you a brainstorm or ancestral from your graveyard. Below are some recent lists

Jace control, gerrard fabiano 12/08/2012 4th of 65


3 Mental Misstep
1 Flusterstorm
3 Mana Drain
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Brainstorm
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Dark Confidant
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Voltaic Key
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
4 Force of Will
1 Repeal
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Time Vault
//sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
1 Flusterstorm
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Mountain
1 Pyroclasm
1 Ravenous Trap
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Ingot Chewer



Here's Marc Langira's winning list from this year's Gen Con Vintage Champs:


1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Dark Confidant
3 Snapcaster Mage

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Black Lotus
1 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Mana Crypt
2 Mana Drain
3 Mental Misstep
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Voltaic Key
1 Yawgmoth's Will

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Sideboard
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Ingot Chewer
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Mountain
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroclasm
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Yixlid Jailer





This is Elvish piper's list which I feel demonstrates the archetype at it's best.


1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Dark Confidant
3 Snapcaster Mage

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Repeal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Flusterstorm
2 Mana Drain
3 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

1 Cavern of Souls
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn

//Sideboard
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Ingot Chewer
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Mountain
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroclasm
2 Yixlid Jailer


You can see the basic skeleton is the same in all three. Both Marc Langira and elvish piper use the same core cards, notable differences are main deck bounce, and Cavern of Souls.

Bob Control is full of broken plays and can easily drop a bomb on turn one and protect it until the game has stabilized in it's favour. However this is not a high variance deck. You will almost always have something dangerous to to on turn one and follow it up on turn two with a tempo play. Bob Control has main deck disruption against the majority of the field.
Besides a rock solid draw engine, a few cards devoted to winning, and lots of control pieces, there's very little room wasted on chaff. even the lightning bolts serve double duty as control cards against opposing creatures and as a way of stopping your dark confidants from getting out of control.
If I was going to a tournament tomorrow this is the deck I would take.

[mmcgeach]

I like the list, it looks pretty strong and maximizes the blue "oops, I win" plays (library, tinker bot, and time vault), which I think has been strangely de-emphasized lately.

I've played bob-jace lists before, although not enough to be really expert with this archetype. My questions from my experience are:

1) without an early bob, I find the draw engine can stall. Is there much way to remedy this? Are there other draw spells worth considering? Gifts, Thirst, Mystic Remora, maybe? or something else?

2) I love ingot chewer against shops, it's the best anti-shop card not named "ancient grudge" for sure. But do you find that boarding in a bunch of 5-cc cards is problematic with bob? Or does bob not stick around long enough in the shops match to really hurt you by flipping chewers?

Speaking of which... is a main-deck anti-artifact card warranted? I found myself wishing for a maindeck rack and ruin in the last local event...

[H]

1) without an early bob, I find the draw engine can stall. Is there much way to remedy this? Are there other draw spells worth considering? Gifts, Thirst, Mystic Remora, maybe? or something else?

2) I love ingot chewer against shops, it's the best anti-shop card not named "ancient grudge" for sure. But do you find that boarding in a bunch of 5-cc cards is problematic with bob? Or does bob not stick around long enough in the shops match to really hurt you by flipping chewers?

Speaking of which... is a main-deck anti-artifact card warranted? I found myself wishing for a maindeck rack and ruin in the last local event...

An early Bob is generally best, even game winning, but it is not essential. You can still Merchant Scroll for Ancestral, land a Library and play for a long Control game, or just go for it my Vamp, DT, of Mystical for Tinker or something else with Flusterstorm backup. I think the greatness of this deck type is its flexibility. It has the ability to play the long games, with Library or Bob, or just go broken and win now.

As for Ingot Chewers with Bob, it really isn't that bad. Force already is a 5 cmc and there have been many a times where decks played 4 Froce and 4 Gush with 4 Bobs. It's not that bad, you just need to be a bit more careful on dropping multiple Bobs in this case, if you don't have a top or a Jace.

As for a maindeck anti-artifact card, I don't know about Rack and Ruin. It's good vs Blue (when you probably don't need it as much) and vs. Shops it simply costs too much with a sphere or two out.

[Jblaze4lif]

I love the list but I keep finding myself drawn to add 2 Baleful Strix and 2 Goblin welders

I Would cut 1 snap, 1 Mystical tutor, 1 Merchant Scroll, and the 4th I'm not sure

I dont know if it's better with the strix and welder but its such fun tech when it gets going.

[Beware]

For the sake of completion, here is Marc Langira's winning list from this year's Gen Con Vintage Champs:


1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Dark Confidant
3 Snapcaster Mage

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Black Lotus
1 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Mana Crypt
2 Mana Drain
3 Mental Misstep
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Voltaic Key
1 Yawgmoth's Will

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Sideboard
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Ingot Chewer
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Mountain
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroclasm
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Yixlid Jailer

[LowBeyonder]

I might give it a spin, because I do love drawing extra cards and doing broken stuff.

Intuitively, these lists look extremely soft to Oath, but it seems like no one's found the right Oath build yet.

[Beware]

I might give it a spin, because I do love drawing extra cards and doing broken stuff.

Intuitively, these lists look extremely soft to Oath, but it seems like no one's found the right Oath build yet.

The deck is pretty soft to Oath, but Oath is generally pretty bad. There's a reason it's one of the only archetypes to never have a showing at the highest tables.

[Basaka]

I was thinking why no one has used smelt yet.

It's a 1cc instant, and can be snapcasted back. It does get missteped, but I don't think Shop even bothers. More concerned w/ chalice@1, so I might do a 2/2 split or something.

[Beware]

Ingot Chewer gets around Thorn and doesn't get shut off by Chalice. Against MUD you'll never have enough mana to Snapcaster Mage anything and, when you do, it should probably be something much more significant than Smelt.

[H]

I was thinking why no one has used smelt yet.

It's a 1cc instant, and can be snapcasted back. It does get missteped, but I don't think Shop even bothers. More concerned w/ chalice@1, so I might do a 2/2 split or something.

It would be good, but nearly all MUD players know full well that a Chalice at 1 vs. a Blue deck is really good. Most pilots will drop Chalice at 1 completely blind once they see a U Sea, at any turn past 2-3, when they know that Chalice 0 isn't very effective any more.

Really, for me, if it's not Ancient Grudge (and running G) it's Ingot Chewer. Chewer is just so much better, with the sole exception of when you flip it to Bob. For me, I would much rather have it lose me a bunch of life rather than just get locked out against Chalice.

[John Cox]

in addition to what's been said, ingot chewer blows up dredge's bridges. The card you probably want to look at over smelt is nature's claim . It dramatically improves the oath match up and is relevant against shops.

[aahz]

in addition to what's been said, ingot chewer blows up dredge's bridges. The card you probably want to look at over smelt is nature's claim . It dramatically improves the oath match up and is relevant against shops.
Needs green though, which strains the manabase. As a long time Bob/Drain player, adding a 4th color isn't really worth it. If you are worried about things like Oath, another option is more pro-active disruption like Thoughtseize to compliment all the permission this deck already plays. I go back and forth on Thoughseize as a 1-of (and have played 2 in the past). I'm not currently running it, but it is definitely a possibility that doesn't suck.

[John Cox]

Needs green though, which strains the manabase. As a long time Bob/Drain player, adding a 4th color isn't really worth it. If you are worried about things like Oath, another option is more pro-active disruption like Thoughtseize to compliment all the permission this deck already plays. I go back and forth on Thoughseize as a 1-of (and have played 2 in the past). I'm not currently running it, but it is definitely a possibility that doesn't suck.

Yeah... thats the big problem. The only artifact hate worth playing besides chewer requires green. I guess you could play viashino heretic too. Thats a whole new topic though.

[TheElvishPiper]

Played Marc's list in Vintage for Vaults, and ran into oath twice. The first match was lost in game 3 to a turn one Tinker/Blightsteel with Force back up. The second match was won by tutoring for a Grafdigger's Cage and protecting it both games. Oath is not an un-winable matchup, just tough. The only change I made from Marc's Winning list was cutting the REB in the sideboard in favor of another Grafdigger's Cage to help the oath matchup.

I tested UBr Bob/Jace/Snapcaster in the weeks leading up to GenCon. I found that the blue matchup is a little rough, but everything else seems solid. As far as smelt goes, there was never a situation that it was better than Ingot Chewer during my testing, and the instant speed was never relevant.

[Koby]

Played Marc's list in Vintage for Vaults, and ran into oath twice. The first match was lost in game 3 to a turn one Tinker/Blightsteel with Force back up. The second match was won by tutoring for a Grafdigger's Cage and protecting it both games. Oath is not an un-winable matchup, just tough. The only change I made from Marc's Winning list was cutting the REB in the sideboard in favor of another Grafdigger's Cage to help the oath matchup.

I tested UBr Bob/Jace/Snapcaster in the weeks leading up to GenCon. I found that the blue matchup is a little rough, but everything else seems solid. As far as smelt goes, there was never a situation that it was better than Ingot Chewer during my testing, and the instant speed was never relevant.

REB/Pyro help to turn around the blue mirrors immensely. Bolt killing Jace also helps too, but less flexible. I'm wondering if some of the g/y hate could be subbed in for local events where Dredge doesn't prowl. I guess it all boils down to the metagame composition.

[John Cox]

REB/Pyro help to turn around the blue mirrors immensely. Bolt killing Jace also helps too, but less flexible. I'm wondering if some of the g/y hate could be subbed in for local events where Dredge doesn't prowl. I guess it all boils down to the metagame composition.

I've been burned in the passed skimping on dredge hate in the passed so I wouldn't recommend that, but I would try moving some things into the main deck that would be more advantageous to what I expect.
I would definitely put Spell pierce over flusterstorms for example as it counters spheres/chalices and oaths.

[Koby]

The strength of Big Blue is its ability to correctly pick metagame slots. I agree that skimping on g/y hate is suspect for large wide-open metagames, it's next to useless here at the home front. There's also the proxy/no-proxy metagames that also influence what gets played. Regardless, there's room to tinker with the deck and a number of not necessary slots that can get shuffled around. I think Spellbomb is one of those and it's really nice maindeck, but not at its peak performance without Welders. Hurkyl's Recall too comes to mind if you're not expecting Shops.

The Suicide Jace lists are ultimately a difference animal than the Welder lists, and should have enough game against non-Oath builds from the CA that Bob provides. Oath itself is a pretty funky matchup against Big Blue, so it just comes down to getting the right cards early and like ElvishPiper said, protecting a Grafdigger's Cage.

[RJM]

The strength of Big Blue is its ability to correctly pick metagame slots. I agree that skimping on g/y hate is suspect for large wide-open metagames, it's next to useless here at the home front. There's also the proxy/no-proxy metagames that also influence what gets played. Regardless, there's room to tinker with the deck and a number of not necessary slots that can get shuffled around. I think Spellbomb is one of those and it's really nice maindeck, but not at its peak performance without Welders. Hurkyl's Recall too comes to mind if you're not expecting Shops.

The Suicide Jace lists are ultimately a difference animal than the Welder lists, and should have enough game against non-Oath builds from the CA that Bob provides. Oath itself is a pretty funky matchup against Big Blue, so it just comes down to getting the right cards early and like ElvishPiper said, protecting a Grafdigger's Cage.

Heh, Koby I think you're the reason I don't post that often on here. Every time I'm ready to write something out, I just read what you said and pretty much just think "yup".

[TheElvishPiper]

REB/Pyro help to turn around the blue mirrors immensely. Bolt killing Jace also helps too, but less flexible. I'm wondering if some of the g/y hate could be subbed in for local events where Dredge doesn't prowl. I guess it all boils down to the metagame composition.

The singleton REB in the sideboard doesn't vastly improve the blue matchup. I cut it to improve other matchups. The sideboard is great for a largely dredge and shops meta, but it is also a great all around sideboard. In a local meta game, without a lot of dredge, I would probably cut the main deck Nihil Spellbomb for the 3rd Mana Drain. It really depends on what the rest of your meta game looks like to say how the sideboard would look.

[RJM]

I would probably cut the main deck Nihil Spellbomb for the 3rd Mana Drain. It really depends on what the rest of your meta game looks like to say how the sideboard would look.

This is what I'm running at the moment. Partly because the lack of Dredge, but also just because I have these 3 Mana Drains, and I wanted to run them all. Nihil main is pretty great almost all the time though.

[TheElvishPiper]

This is what I'm running at the moment. Partly because the lack of Dredge, but also just because I have these 3 Mana Drains, and I wanted to run them all. Nihil main is pretty great almost all the time though.

I had the same thoughts, but decided to run it as is in the vintage for vaults tournament at GenCon. The Nihil Spellbomb was sick the entire tournament, but the Mana Drain would have been better against MUD and Fish.

[RJM]

I've really been feeling like LoA is a complete win-more card lately. It's dead when I really want an extra card. And even when it's live, I'm probably doing fine anyway.

After some moderate amounts of playtesting, I'm certain that I'd rather it be either Tower of the Magistrate, or Riptide Lab.

Having an extra option to either bounce Bob when he's probably going to kill me, or take Snapcaster to value-town USA in the mid-late game with Riptide has been solid. It's the more well-rounded of the choices since it will obviously be useful in any match-up.

I've straight up won at least 3 games now out of about a dozen against Workshop because of Tower of the Magistrate. Chump block for days, or get through blockers for lethal. Blightsteel -> Protection -> Swing. Living the dream? Or legitimately useful enough on more than one occasion? I've done it. And I've had it be a LoA that I wished was a Tower.

It's a more narrow choice, but it does its tricks, and it's not like Workshop decks aren't everywhere anyway.

I guess I'd maybe even rather see something like Dust Bowl. Even though that's not really our game. All I know, is that I think LoA isn't doing it for me, and I'm looking for alternatives. I've even looked at a Basic Swamp.

Thoughts?

[PeAcH]

I would rather play another Island than play LoA nowadays.

If you are playing vs Dredge and MUD all day long it´s not really that good. It´s a bloodbath in which you don´t have time to sit to read and draw you a pair of cards.

And if you are playing vs blue, you'd better not mulligan because LoA gets worse and worse. Having it on the draw in your opening hand is cool. It that does not prevent you from being killed but it does prevent you from casting Mana Drain on turn 2 consistently. You'd better draw a Fluster or Fow.

[TheElvishPiper]

I have been on the fence with Library of Alexandria as well. I feel that it is dead sometimes, and definitely hinders certain lines of play. I was contemplating trying out Cavern of Souls in place of LoA. It would allow for Bobs and Snapcasters to resolve more in the Blue matchup, as well as sneak through a Chalice of the Void set at 2 (which tends to be a problem for this deck at times). At the least, Cavern of Souls still taps for :1: like LoA, and I feel like Cavern would be better in this list. I know that some Bomberman pilots have been having success with Cavern, and I think that this deck would benefit from the card as well.

Here is my current 75:

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Dark Confidant
3 Snapcaster Mage

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Repeal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Flusterstorm
2 Mana Drain
3 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

1 Cavern of Souls
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Ingot Chewer
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Mountain
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroclasm
2 Yixlid Jailer

[RJM]

Cavern, nice. I'm going to have to try that out.

Dust Bowl is on my short list right now too actually. It did good work in some tests earlier this afternoon. It's also nice to have a way to clear an opposing Academy so that I can drop mine. Not having some way to do this also cost me a game in the same session of testing.

Without multiple slots, or ways to recur lands, it's the best LD we can pack in a single card I think.

I really like the generic bounce you have. But I also get all squirmy cutting to just 1 Flusterstorm to do it. I also have been looking at Echoing Truth instead because getting Zombie tokens is a nice side effect. Not sure what else I'd swap it for though.

Flusterstorm & REB are what let me win against other blue decks, which is arguably already a bit of a weaker matchup for us.

I've also been strongly considering the Viashino Heretic getting a slot. Freaking Buried Ruin has been popping up a lot more since BC's list placed so highly with the full playset. Sometimes I run out of Ingot Chewers because I can't close the game out, and they just put their stuff back into play.

[TheElvishPiper]

Cavern, nice. I'm going to have to try that out.

Dust Bowl is on my short list right now too actually. It did good work in some tests earlier this afternoon. It's also nice to have a way to clear an opposing Academy so that I can drop mine. Not having some way to do this also cost me a game in the same session of testing.

Without multiple slots, or ways to recur lands, it's the best LD we can pack in a single card I think.

I really like the generic bounce you have. But I also get all squirmy cutting to just 1 Flusterstorm to do it. I also have been looking at Echoing Truth instead because getting Zombie tokens is a nice side effect. Not sure what else I'd swap it for though.

Flusterstorm & REB are what let me win against other blue decks, which is arguably already a bit of a weaker matchup for us.

I've also been strongly considering the Viashino Heretic getting a slot. Freaking Buried Ruin has been popping up a lot more since BC's list placed so highly with the full playset. Sometimes I run out of Ingot Chewers because I can't close the game out, and they just put their stuff back into play.

If I was to cut the LoA in favor of some sort of land destruction, I would play Strip Mine. It is a lot quicker than Dustbowl, and you dont have to invest mana into it. It easily hits Bazaar, Workshop, or an opposing LoA/Tolarian Academy.

The 2nd copy of Flusterstorm was cut because Flusterstorm is dead against any non blue deck, and it doesnt counter Jace or Time Vault/Key. I know that reasoning sounds a little bit odd, but with 3 Snapcaster's you should be able to get multiple uses out of Flusterstorm. I could see cutting the main deck Nihil Spellbomb in favor of the 3rd Mana Drain to compensate for cutting the other Flusterstorm (but this still depends on your expected meta game.

Echoing Truth is great against a lot of stuff, but gets locked out on Chalice for two. Both Echoing Truth and Repeal can hit Stony Silence, which is my main target with the bounce spell (no green and no nature's claims), but I chose Repeal because I love the card draw and flexibility.

I play a lot of Vintage, but most of it takes place on Cockatrice due to the lack of a Vintage scene in my area. I tend to see a lot of Fish, Workshops, and Dredge online which is why I cut the REB in the sideboard in favor of the 4th Lightning Bolt. If I was to adjust my list for a slightly more blue heavy meta game along with a fair amount of Workshops and Dredge, I would cut the 4th bolt from the sideboard for a Nihil Spellbomb, and cut the spellbomb in the main deck for the 3rd Mana Drain. :smile:

[RJM]

If I was to cut the LoA in favor of some sort of land destruction, I would play Strip Mine. It is a lot quicker than Dustbowl, and you dont have to invest mana into it. It easily hits Bazaar, Workshop, or an opposing LoA/Tolarian Academy.

Yeah, it really is a little greedy to want to get multiple uses out of the Dust Bowl, I suppose. There are long game scenarios where this is theoretically great, which is more of what I had in mind. But I don't know that it's actually worth it.


The 2nd copy of Flusterstorm was cut because Flusterstorm is dead against any non blue deck, and it doesnt counter Jace or Time Vault/Key. I know that reasoning sounds a little bit odd, but with 3 Snapcaster's you should be able to get multiple uses out of Flusterstorm. I could see cutting the main deck Nihil Spellbomb in favor of the 3rd Mana Drain to compensate for cutting the other Flusterstorm (but this still depends on your expected meta game.

All reasonable assessments. You might be convincing me. :) (I just really love winning counter wars though.)


Echoing Truth is great against a lot of stuff, but gets locked out on Chalice for two. Both Echoing Truth and Repeal can hit Stony Silence, which is my main target with the bounce spell (no green and no nature's claims), but I chose Repeal because I love the card draw and flexibility.

Echoing Truth might get locked out at Chalice on two, but the problem with Repeal is that it get's locked out if what you actually want to bounce with it is Chalice @1, which I've had happen and is definitely the more common play; and it sucks.

(Chalice @0 though, feels really nice to Repeal.) :P

However, that and needing 3+ mana to bounce anything bigger than 1cmc stuff gets really difficult against any kind of disruption. Which is usually what the kind of decks that are running Stony Silence/Chalice, etc are packing.


I play a lot of Vintage, but most of it takes place on Cockatrice due to the lack of a Vintage scene in my area. I tend to see a lot of Fish, Workshops, and Dredge online which is why I cut the REB in the sideboard in favor of the 4th Lightning Bolt. If I was to adjust my list for a slightly more blue heavy meta game along with a fair amount of Workshops and Dredge, I would cut the 4th bolt from the sideboard for a Nihil Spellbomb, and cut the spellbomb in the main deck for the 3rd Mana Drain. :smile:

I play a lot online too, and tend to run up against pretty diverse gauntlets of decks. So I've been trying to stay pretty well rounded with options. Which, of course, only makes these kind of tweaks more difficult.

[TheElvishPiper]

Echoing Truth might get locked out at Chalice on two, but the problem with Repeal is that it get's locked out if what you actually want to bounce with it is Chalice @1, which I've had happen and is definitely the more common play; and it sucks.

(Chalice @0 though, feels really nice to Repeal.) :P

However, that and needing 3+ mana to bounce anything bigger than 1cmc stuff gets really difficult against any kind of disruption. Which is usually what the kind of decks that are running Stony Silence/Chalice, etc are packing.


Chalice on one is easily handled by Hurykl's Recall. Repeal is just a nice backup if there is a Chalice on 2.

[RJM]

I've decided I want more Jace. But I'm really struggling with what to cut in order to jam it in. Suggestions?


My current list:

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Dark Confidant
3 Snapcaster Mage

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
5 Moxen

1 Tinker
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor

4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
3 Mental Misstep
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Flusterstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
3 Lightning Bolt

4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Riptide Laboratory (or LoA, or Tower, or another basic)


SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Ingot Chewer
SB: 2 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1 Mountain
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Flusterstorm

[Bill Copes]

You could move one of the lightning bolts to the sideboard to fit it in. Either that or a Mental Misstep.

[RJM]

You could move one of the lightning bolts to the sideboard to fit it in. Either that or a Mental Misstep.

Yeah, I was at 2x MD Blot, 1x SB for a while. But I just kept bringing it in all the time, so I moved the 2nd Flusterstorm to the SB and put all 3 Bolts main. I'd rather have one less dead card against Shops and creatures all the time, than the 1 extra counter for the blue mirror in game 1. Since Bolt also kills Jaces, it's never a waste there either.

I probably lose the Flusterstorm #2, or REB I think. 3x Drain/3x Misstep has just been too good. I'm not sure if I like how weak I feel to other blue decks then though. Does one extra Jace help enough there to make up for it?

[John Cox]

The extra Jace will keep your opponents Jace off the board (similar to lightning bolt in this regard), so it will help against blue. It will also bounce blightsteel which bolt can't do. If I were you I would take out the misstep (It's really only good against blue decks) -Your adding jace who out draws blue, deals with opposing jaces and bounces blightsteel. So your already ahead of the game on the blue side of things (my opinion).

[Bill Copes]

The extra Jace will keep your opponents Jace off the board (similar to lightning bolt in this regard), so it will help against blue. It will also bounce blightsteel which bolt can't do. If I were you I would take out the misstep (It's really only good against blue decks) -Your adding jace who out draws blue, deals with opposing jaces and bounces blightsteel. So your already ahead of the game on the blue side of things (my opinion).

If I owned another one and there was a way to squeeze it in, I'd run a 4th Jace. At this point, the card is just too good to not want to see one in your opening 7. Even if you can only get a brainstorm out of it, your opponent still had to expend some time or resources to deal with it. It's solid in every match (need I go into detail?) . Misstep, not so much. Decks are trending away from it being an effective counter (Does nothing against Shops, Oath, Landstill, not enough against RUG and BUG). Right now my counter package is 4 FOW, 3 Drain, 2 Fluster, 2 Misstep. This has been quite comfortable and versatile.

[TheElvishPiper]

I am still running only 2 copies of Jace in my list. Yes he is absolutely busted and amazing, but I still dont see the need for more copies. This deck is insanely consistent and provides massive amounts of card advantage. I dont want my hand clogged with multiple Jace's, but maybe thats just me. :cool:

[infant_no_1]

I need some input on my current decklist. My metagame has quite a bit of MUD of all varieties, Fish, and dredge. Other things I expect to see as one-ofs: Elves, Minus Six, Hate-Bears, Gushbond.

Here is my current build, please let me know your thoughts.

MAIN DECK (61)
2 Spell Snare
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Force of Will
2 Mental Misstep
3 Flusterstorm
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Goblin Welder
3 Baleful Strix
4 Dark Confidant
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Balance
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

1 Plateau
1 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island

Sideboard
3 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Ingot Chewer
1 Spell Snare
2 Steel Sabotage
1 Viashino Heretic

I'm thinking of cutting Vampiric Tutor for Mystical Tutor, I'd like at least one Sword to Plowshares, and I'm unsure whether Spell Snare or Steel Sabotage should be main.

Thanks for your input. Tournament for Volcanic Islands is Saturday & I am determined to walk out of there with them.

[John Cox]

Firstly would keep the vampiric in, it does way more than mystical.
I would keep the spell snares in they can hit spheres ratchet bomb and a few other workshop threats. You don't have the worst workshop game 1 with the strix and welders so I do't see a strong need for steel sabotage replacing them
I don't know what to cut for swords and you still have 61 cards as is.
Wish I could be of more help, but this brew is something I should probably tests a bit before commenting on more.

[infant_no_1]

I feel it's missing something as well. I'm just not sure what. I'm also worried about my matchup with Dredge, are the Cages & Spellbombs enough?

[socialite]

I feel it's missing something as well. I'm just not sure what. I'm also worried about my matchup with Dredge, are the Cages & Spellbombs enough?

Explosives, Pyroclasm, Needle, Cage, Spellbomb, and two Jailers. Seems like a pretty solid mix of reactive and proactive answers to me. I believe the champs list faced Dredge like 4 times in the swiss and in the top 8.

[John Cox]

I believe the champs list faced Dredge like 4 times in the swiss and in the top 8.

He actually was 3-0 in game ones against dredge with nihil spellbomb main and Tinker -> blightsteel colossus being the MVPs.

[Basaka]

I'm yet to obtain a Library, but before I do - how important/redundant is library in this deck actually? If it's not that important I'd rather save the $150-200 and play another land instead (thinking things like strip mine, another basic or another utility land such as academy ruins...)

[John Cox]

I'm not a fan of it.

[TheElvishPiper]

I'm yet to obtain a Library, but before I do - how important/redundant is library in this deck actually? If it's not that important I'd rather save the $150-200 and play another land instead (thinking things like strip mine, another basic or another utility land such as academy ruins...)

It's pretty sweet in the blue mirror, but other than that, it is still good. If your meta consists of a lot of Workshops or Dredge, I could see replacing it.

[bowvamp]

If you think about the MU's where you get 7 cards in hand, they're landstill and draw7.dec
And considering the nature of the two MU's, I'd say it would really only play a role against landstill. So if you don't expect landstill, don't play library.

[Koby]

There are certainly games where Library of Alexandria is underperforming. Then, there are games where you could not win unless you had Library going.

If you expect a fair amount of Blue mirrors, then play Library.
Otherwise, play more gas.

[aahz]

I like LoA, but Koby's assessment is spot on. You can't really go wrong with a Stripmine in its place (I sometimes run both). Another option is a singleton Riptide Laboratory. Its not spectacular, but it's solid with Bobs/Snappies. I've done well with it in the past, though I'm not running one currently (it makes it fun to run a Clique as well, but not worth it in builds with Welder/Strix).

[bowvamp]

Why strip mine over dust bowl? I realize bowl is more mana intensive but you probably won't nuke their lands if you don't have mana for your spells.

If you do run strip mine at least cut the artifact mana count a little. Sol Ring and Mana Vault only enable jace/tinker out of all the spells in the md.

Is merchant scroll useful now that it's basically got two targets if you don't count counters? Why not just run more countermagic? Also if stax is important, why trade so much consistency for power with flusterstorm over pierce?

[aahz]

Why strip mine over dust bowl? I realize bowl is more mana intensive but you probably won't nuke their lands if you don't have mana for your spells.

If you do run strip mine at least cut the artifact mana count a little. Sol Ring and Mana Vault only enable jace/tinker out of all the spells in the md.

Is merchant scroll useful now that it's basically got two targets if you don't count counters? Why not just run more countermagic? Also if stax is important, why trade so much consistency for power with flusterstorm over pierce?
Strip Mine will help you against Dredge, while Dustbowl is way too slow to be of any use there. Dustbowl would be better for a grinding blue mirror, but I wouldn't run it until you've already got a Strip Mine. Strip Mine can hit basic Island, which is significant.

You probably don't want advice from me about what to cut because I nearly always run 61 cards in this deck. I basically run an extra land (either 16 vs 15, or 17 vs 16, can't recall off the top of my head which is the standard). I like the mana ratio better vs mana denial strategies. I don't run Mana Vault at all (just Sol Ring, Crypt, and Moxes/Lotus).

Merchant Scroll is okay. It usually just gets Ancestral, Hurkyl's, or counters (and I guess the slow tutor chain), though it is really good with Fire/ice (however, Lightning Bolt is better these days so it's kind of a moot point). I cut Scroll sometimes when I'm testing out other cards.

As for Flusterstorm, many metas have more Big Blue decks compared to Shops, so it's more efficient/useful to have Flusterstorm maindeck. When it works, Flusterstorm is WAY better than Pierce. I'd rather have something other than Pierce vs. Shops (Steel Sabotage, Chewer, etc.) and the Blue mirror shows up more so Shop stuff is mostly just out of the side. Obviously, if your meta has tons of Shops, it's a different story. There is also the fact that Pierce can hit Vault/Key/Oath/etc in a pinch, but the blowouts from Flusterstorm protecting your own stuff is just better IMHO. Flusterstorm is better offensively (protecting your stuff), while Spell Pierce is a better defensive card in many cases (because it hits more things, though it is easier to play around).

[bowvamp]

Thanks for the input.

Yeah, I'd agree with your assessment of Strip Mine, dredge totally skipped my mind. Dustbowl is also a good way to kill shops and academies. If you exhaust your resources, at least you can slow them down some was my line of thought.

Yeah, I wasn't saying cut crypts, just sol rings or mana vaults if you run them.

Also I'm running a split of pierce and flusterstorm atm because I agree with the power flusterstorm brings.

[Jblaze4lif]

I'm running 2 Lightning Bolt, 2 Goblin Welder main. Do you guys suggest 3 volcanic or 2 volcanic main.

[aahz]

Even when I'm playing Welders, I usually only run 2 Volcanics and it has never been a huge problem, though it has come up once or twice. The issue is that you probably have to cut a basic Island for it which can be problematic (I like casting Drains with basics). Do you run 4xTarn in your fetch suite and a basic Mountain in the board? It's normally for Shops specifically, but you can board it in against decks with Wasteland to deal with that issue in G2/3.

[Jblaze4lif]

Yea 4 scalding tarn with 1 mountain in the board.

7 Fetchlands
3 Seas
3 Volcanic
2 Islands

Im pretty much running the 3rd Volcanic over library.

[Koby]

I think 2 colc might be fine or this deck. Mox + feteches + Volcs and Lotus give about 16.7% to get 4/60 cards from your deck.

[socialite]

I've been running the same mana base in my Drain Tendrils list for the past few months and I'm positive (assuming you do not want to run Library) that it should be island #3 over Volcanic #3. Frankly, if I were to run a list similar to the Worlds list I would run Library. While it's not the most impressive and mind blowing card to play there’s something to be said about running an extra mana source regardless of being non basic that straight up wins blue mirrors especially when the list is already so well-tuned against mana denial strategies.

[Blizzard96]

Hi, I tested a lot with the following list:

1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
2 Baleful Strix
2 Goblin Welder
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Dark Confidant
1 Myr Battleshphere
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Brainstorm
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Tinker
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
2 Mana Drain
2 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Mental Misstep
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
2 Bloodstained Mire (I am playing a Basic-Mountain in my SB)
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island


The intention of the List ist to have a maximum premium matchup against dredge and MUD.
So I added 2 Baleful Strix und 2 Goblin Welder to improve the matchup.

To improve the dredge Matchup, I decided to play 1 Nhil Spellbomb, because you can get it back with Goblin Welder.

Of Course I could also have added Rakdos Charm, but BR as casting costs ist like a double off-color against Shops.


Shops now feels like 60% and dredge like 50% - My Sideboard looks like:
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Mountain
4 Ingot Chewer
8 Dredgehate

More soon.