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Barbed Blightning
09-25-2012, 01:26 AM
BIG RED

1. What is it?

Big Red is a mono-red sneak attack deck focused around mana-ramp, bomb-enablers and elements of a stompy deck. Where Big Red lacks the counterspells and flexibility of cards like Intuition and Show & Tell found in its cousins, it makes up for with the resilience of its manabase, the speed at which it can churn out a win and the one-sided-ness of its enablers.

2. Core Cards & Decklist

The List:


7 Mountain
2 Karakas
4 Sandstone Needle
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors

1 Lotus Petal
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Seething Song

4 Sneak Attack
3 Through the Breach
3 Pyromancy

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Blightsteel Colossus
2 Griselbrand
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

4 Inferno Titan
1 Reforge the Soul

4 Chalice of the Void
1 Blood Moon

Sideboard:

1 Through the Breach
1 Pyromancy
1 Pulverize
3 Defense Grid
3 Chaos Warp
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Faerie Macabre



Sneak Attack: is, as seen in SneakShow, a very efficient means of hurling huge monsters at your opponent.

Through the Breach: same as above, but it's splice ability can also be relevant, as you can also splice it onto another Through the Breach.

Pyromancy: turns your titantic creatures into direct damage, to either finish off an opponent when a breach has been used, a Sneak Attack disabled, or combat inhibited (Peacekeeper, Ensnaring Bridge).

Reforge the Soul: either as a Miracle or hardcast, RtS provides Big Red som mid-to-late game gas to finish off an opponent left at 5, or even as a means of disrupting an opponent's hand. It's flexibility and power warrant at least one slot.

Ramp (Sandstone Needle, Seething Song, Shimian Spirit Guide): All get around Chalice 0-2. Spirit Guide (and Petal, which serves as the "fifth copy") help create explosive starts with the Sol lands (City and Tomb), or help mountain hands get a Chalice @ 1 out.



Stompy: Chalice is almost always set at 1, so Mr. Blightsteel can do his thing through a Swords to Plowshares. Chalice also provides the fringe benefit of making the deck's Storm matchup better. Trinisphere and Blood Moon are other obvious choices, and can be added/subtracted/rearranged to suit the metagame.

Karakas: It hates naturally against other S&T decks, but also takes out Gaddock Teeg/Thalia long enough to break into a win. Karakas also allows us to save a creature before they're sacrificed to the delayed trigger of Sneak Attack and Through the Breach

"Titans": While there are multiple possible "bombs" to sneak into play, those who made this list have a reason behind them.

-Blightsteel gives an automatic kill if he connects, and Emrakul provides his suite of pluses.

-Griselbrand similarly offers raw card advantage which, without cantrips, the deck needs.

-Inferno Titan is hard cast, usually as a deterrent against tribal and weenie decks like Goblins, Death & Taxes and Maverick.

-Ulamog is the awkward child of the lot, but his cost actually makes him castable in the deck, and he can blow up a Humility or other problematic permanent on his way in.

In fact, aside from Griselbrand, each creature in Big Red can be cast of rituals and the ramp lands, making it more sustainable into the long game, even after its enablers are gone.


Sideboard

Leyline/Faerie Macabre: Though six hate pieces seems excessive, Iona, Shield of Emeria is the bane of this deck. Six yard hate pieces also makes the dredge matchup stellar.

Defense Grid: brought in against blue decks, it makes counterspells essentially impossible against you, and provides decent insurance against an inconvenient Terminus.

Chaos Warp: Acts a pseudo-vindicate, and can be used to "save" your Titan from exile (and has the potential to bring in another huge creature).

Pulverize: Used in random matchups, such as MUD or Affinity.

The extra Pyromancy and Through the Breach come in against control decks (where uncounterable threats are needed) and aggro decks (where more enablers are required) respectively.

3. & 4. Matchups/Tournaments Results

To be added at a later date


Thanks for reading!

Zirath
09-25-2012, 01:49 PM
Wurmcoil has popped up in the list a number of times. It competes with Inferno Titan since the two cards play different roles but fulfill a similar position.

igri_is_a_bk
09-26-2012, 12:25 PM
Blightsteel Colossus is not very good, from my experience. Any blocker at all means you have to draw two to win. And for a two-card combo, that would be pretty bad if all you get is one creature destroyed on their side (like when they block). Wouldn't...

4 Emrakul
3 Ulamog
4 Griselbrand

...be a better creature package? I think so.

And the one Blood Moon looks like it should be TtB to me, especially game one.

xdavisx
11-30-2012, 01:22 AM
oh wow, i just found this thread. i saw this/you're(?) list earlier this year from one of the jupiter events and i thought it was dope. i sleeved up a similar version, but never got a chance to play it. so it stayed on the shelf for months until about 2 months ago. i wanted a different deck to play at some scg events and said "fuck it" I'm gonna roll with it. i top'd 64 a couple events and almost nabbed a top 32.

if anyone replies/interested i'll post more.

i'll add that this deck has led to some of the funnest games of legacy i've ever played

-Spooky-
11-30-2012, 06:21 PM
I feel like Inferno Titan is sub par. This is my list. I feel like Hellcarver Demon can do a lot more for you than the titan. A lot of this feeling is probably just preference though.



http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=985849

xdavisx
11-30-2012, 07:53 PM
have you resolved inferno titan in legacy? there is no better feeling. being able to hard cast the titan i think makes it a better choice over the demon.

hdeck12
12-16-2012, 05:35 PM
I am the one who has had some success with this deck and been tuning it since ROE was released.

Yesterday I played a 65 person event at Jupiter games. I lost my first round and after 6 more rounds of swiss mountain climbing, I finished 6-1-1 IDing my last match into top 8. I lost in game three of the finals to T.E.S piloted by a jupiter regular.

This is my updated list. A few notes on card changes to follow.

The List:


7 Mountain
2 Karakas
3 Sandstone Needle
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors

1 Lotus Petal
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Seething Song
1 Grim Monolith

4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach
2 Pyromancy

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Blightsteel Colossus
3 Griselbrand
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2 Worldspine Wurm

3 Inferno Titan

4 defense grid
4 faithless looting

Sideboard:

1 inferno titan
1 aether flash
1 blood moon
3 Chaos Warp
4 Leyline of the Void
2 volcanic fallout
1 meekstone
1 pyroblast
1 grafdiggers cage

Changes:
Spells
Disruption switch from chalice of the void to defense grid. A turn one defense grid makes an opponent playout what they can turn one and two and then have to hold up 3+ mana in order to disrupt a hasty fatty. No aggro deck is going to swiftly kill me from their first two plays. This also gives me time to faithlessly loot away the duplicate combo pieces in my hand. In order to play faithless looting I had to eliminate the nombo of setting Chalices at 1. I want my turn one to be kill you, defense grid or faithless looting. This is what led me to eliminate a sandstone needle, and city of traitors. CIT and being sacrificed were both worse plays in the decks new shape. Trying to go off earlier also meant out one pyromancy, in one through the breach.

Creatures:
Blightsteel is no longer pulling his weight. He is cold to deathrite shamen, stoneforge, two tribal creatures, kotr, or goyf. All of which are happening before the end of turn 2 in those matchups. So in comes some new tech. Worldspine worm. He is almost impossible to deal with if he resolves all the way through. Multiple times opponents have been able to deal with either 2 of the tokens, or most of the damage, but three tramplers when you're at 5 overwhelms just about everyone. They're not legendary, but I really don't want more than 1 ever. So there are 2 and one griselbrand came in because lets face it, I always want 1. I don't play 4 because I never want two in my opening hand. Lastly one inferno titan moved to the board. He was mainly there to deal with gaddock teeg in and GSZ list. Without a chalice set on 1, he becomes very easily removable and a 6 mana investment in 3 damage is too much in legacy. And for anyone else working on this list. Infero titan is here because he's a CASTABLE creature. All their counter magic for your non creatures can't hit him.

Sideboard:
Mostly the same, down one grave hate because those decks aren't huge in the local meta. Grafdiggers cage helps against GSZ as well. Aetherflash is a bomb against any aggro/token deck. Unfortunately people side in enchantment hate against me, I'd like to find another house against goblins that cant be krosan gripped for this spot. The meekstone is great against RUG, and will keep KOTR from finding multiple wastelands.

On to the tournament. I didn't take any notes so this is all from memory and I apologize if I got some details wrong.

R1 goblins
G1 on the draw: mull to five, port into vile followed by wasteland while goblins pound my face. LOSE
G2 on the play: mull to five. Turn 1 aether flash. Double port keeps me from doing anything for maybe 4 turns. If I rip land or through the breach I win. Krosan grip is cast. Instant speed through the breach is on the top of my deck when I die. LOSE
0-1-0

Sad panda.

R2 goblins (yay or OMFG I QUIT DECK BUILDING)
G1 on the draw: Turn 2 your end step through the breach griselbrand, draw 14 and untap? WIN
G2 on the draw: Something really similar WIN

1-1-0

Ok, you can play another round before dropping

R3 Burn (could be worse, too bad I cut my 4 leyline of the sanctity this morning)
G1 on the draw: Goblin guide and faithless looting help me draw into a turn 2 sneak attack into griselbrand into something else fat. WIN
G2 on the draw: I manage to tap ancient tomb 3 times in order to turn 4 through the breach emrakul his board leaving me at 6 life. He rips mountain, bolt bolt. LOSE. I think I made a mistake here. I had worldspine wurm at the time of the breach. If I had put that in, It wouldn't have necessarily been better (I remember what was in his hand) cause him untapping mighta meant my death, but it woulda put him on a one turn clock to have the cards in hand.
G3: I sneak attack emrakul his board at three life. It's a race of me drawing a fatty or him drawing a mountain, WIN

2-1-0

Round three and nothing but mountains...weird day.

R4Cloudpost
G1 dont remember: I land a defense grid and he can't answer my turn 4 emrakul. Something follows it and I get there. WIN
G2 on the draw: I play a pyromancy and he has to spend some resources finding and preserving glacial chasm so I don't just kill him. A few turns go by and I make it to 7 land and play defense grid that he lets resolve and I cast through the breach for emrakul which he again can't answer because of defense grid. I finish him off before he can rebuild. WIN

3-1-0

First islands of the day, good thing you brought those defense grids.

R5Cloudpost (again? good thing the guy last round told me they're playing no counter magic main and only flusterstorm post board)
G1 on the draw: I know he has no counter magic game one so I'm feeling good knowing he'll probably start to set up on 3 and go for it on turn 4. He Show and tells on turn 2...crap! Forgot they switched to the show and tell plan, is he really going to put in emrakul against me? I put in pyromancy (knowing he's a good enough player that he wouldn't show and tell without an answer to whatever I put in, so I tried to take the back road) he puts in primeval titan. Wow, I feel dumb, shoulda seen that coming but I made the right choice. He grabs clacial chasm to prevent my direct damage and karakas to deal with my legends. He actually doesn't attack for two turns because he can't figure out why I put pyromancy into play and is playing safe. So two turns of this go by as he sets up his kill on top of his library. Probably around turn 5 he stops paying for glacial chasm. He's got the kill on top of his library set up by sesei's top. He needs to draw with top and attack with prime time fetching 2 lands. Instead, he attacks with prime time and as he's searching up his lands goes into super tilt realizing he just shuffled away his top deck. I need this because I can't actually kill him the following turn. He's at 9, has a karakas, an untapped land, and a 2/2 in play. I go 'main phase activate sneak attack, maintain priority activate sneak attack.' Confidently wait to see his tilting response. He lets them resolve one at a time. I put in worldspine wurm and emrakul. He knows he's fine with karakas and probably the crop rotation for maze or something in his hand. 'Move to combat phase?' wait. he tilts a little. 'Activate sneak attack?' wait. He tilts some more. Drop blightsteel, turn my board sideways and announce, "swing way more than lethal?' He angrily scoops us his cards forgetting that blightsteel is poison damage and his 2/2 blocker would put him at 9 poison, not 0 life...to kill me the following turn. Pretty much I gwt lucky that he threw the game away twice. WIN
G2 on the draw: Turn one he plays top. I know he has no force and is tapped out. A turn one worldspine wurm was too much to answer. WIN

4-1-0

Theres hope!

R6 MUD
G1 on the draw: His turn one is: Ancient Tomb, Grim Monolith, Voltaic Key, Top, Untap Grim Monolith, Pass. I respond with, 'Mountain, Go'. He cast wurmcoil engine. Wurmcoil attacks while a port and wasteland keep me short on mana. LOSE
G2 on the play: He does a lot fast but it only ends up being mana stones and a grindstone. PaintersServant/Grindstone is REALLY bad against me. I over hear his friends talking about it being a transformation from his sideboard. I'm really confused. My emrakul is faster than his...plan. WIN
G3 on the draw: He didn't do much, made lots of mana and played a pair of grindstones...I'm still really confused. WIN

5-1-0

Sweet, don't get the pair down and draw in!

R7 Don't get paired down, get paired against one of my friends and we both ID into the top 8.
He was on esperblade, and we played for fun. Game one his one discard spell and one FOW weren't enough for my 3 sneak effects. The second game he let a blood moon resolve expecting to fetch a basic the following turn. Oops. A resolved blood moon is too much for esperblade.

Top 8 (I'm the 8...yay)

Quarter final Junk
G1 on the draw: His 2 thgouthsiezes are good but he has no pressure and I faithlessly loot out of it. WIN
G2 on the draw: His discard is followed by bob this time and he gets to draw cards. LOSE
G3 on the play: His discard again does a lot work. I stick a pyromancy. From fetching and thoughtsiezing he's down to 15 and knows I have worldspine wurm in my hand, Its a 15/15. He assumes it costs 15 so after I activate pyromancy he plows his bob to stay alive and then only receives 11 damage...the CMC of worlspine. He tilts a little but pyromancy finishes the job the following turn. WIN

Semi final: Helm Combo
G1 on the draw: At some point he catches me off guard by flipping a force of will to counterbalance to counter my through the breach. I end up getting there through the FOW he then draws. WIN
G2 on the draw: Defense grid keeps him from casting force when I go off a turn before he thought I could. WIN

Yay, I made it to the finals after losing round 1

Finals: T.E.S. (We both know the other has minimal disruption, its going to be a race)
G1 on the Draw: Turn 1 he ponders, I play a mountain, turn two he ponders twice. my turn 2 I play a sol land, cast 3 seething songs, into a through the breach for griselbrand floating 4 red. Draw 14 cards, hit 1 sneak attack, 1 spirit guide, and 1 15/15. WIN
G2 on he draw: My 7 kills him by turn 4, not good enough. I start mulliganing and it gets bad. I stop at 3 with 3 of the 5 combo pieces. He kills me turn two...I still would have killed him turn 4, don't think I mulliganed incorrectly.
G3 on the play: I mulligan to 6 and keep the nuts minus a fatty. He kills me on his turn 1. Griselbrand is on top of my deck. LOSE

Things to keep in mind while playing this deck:
Do some math. Faithless looting is card disadvantage. Mana rituals are card disadvantage. If you're not careful you will have no cards in hand and not enough lands in play to do anything.
This deck does broken things, don't be afraid to mulligan. It takes 5 cards to combo off. There are at least 5 of each.
Through the breach is an instant. It can be cast to put in a blocker and when cast on the opponents end step leaves the creature in play until your endstep. Drawing off griselbrand is SO much better when you get to untap before discarding.

Hope to see you all playing legacy in the upstate NY area sometime.

-Ithaca is Gorges

(nameless one)
12-16-2012, 09:48 PM
Holy shit this deck is awesome!

Would you consider running Wild Guess over Faithless Looting? This way, you can run Chalice either on the main or on the side.

xdavisx
12-17-2012, 12:25 AM
siq report! defense grid and faithless looting fix a lot of the problems i encountered with the deck.

are 18 lands enough? how good/necessary are karakas?

lets try to keep this thread alive

Barbed Blightning
12-17-2012, 11:28 AM
Yes, let's! I was concerned for a while that no one would pick up on this idea.

@deck: I was there obviously, but congrats again! Have you considered Kozilek as another castable creature (over, say, one worldspine/Bsteel)? I figured the draw-four aspect would be the best part of that.

@Spooky: I feel like Hellcarver's too all or nothing. Sure, you might cast Emrakul and win, or they might just STP him in response to his trigger, milling you for six and hitting you with a one-side Apocalypse.

@all: hdeck12 is the real creator of this deck. I only posted this thread so that word could get out (and, in the preemptive hope that Show & Tell would be banned; thus far, no such luck.) Figured I should just add that disclaimer.

hdeck12
12-18-2012, 07:26 PM
@Barbed, thanks for the props. Not sure how this was supposed to get s&t banned, but maybe it's best friend Sneak Attack.

@xdavisx, Maindecking defense grid fixes the swords to plowshares problem nearly as well as chalice. one might be better off in the board because they get pretty useless after the 2nd. Most of the time even the second is unnecessary.
I'd love to hear any fun stories you've had with this deck. I like to play decks that people are unprepared for, and thats where a lot of the fun in this deck come from. Doing ridiculous things when people don't even smell it coming.
So far through the breaching a griselbrand to block a lacky, drawing 21 and untapping has been one of my favorite moves.

Lands:
Yes, that is plenty. With five spirit guides and 5 seething song you will have plenty. I've considered cutting a karakas for a real card, they barely count as lands in this deck. My real reason for karakas is I refuse to play a deck that is hands down dead to a single card. Without karakas, that card is Iona. And with no disruption she is a real potential turn 2 slam in that matchup. It was necessary when Sneak/Show was running around and playing their own. Iona, Teag, Thalia, Karakas are the reasons for it. If you don't expect any of those cards, or them in low numbers then cut it. The ability to bounce your own legends is pretty sweet for on lookers but complete overkill in most situations.

Cards: (SUGGESTION PLEASE)
Someone else in the NY meta has been piloting this deck from what the grapevine tells me. I heard hes trying out chaos warp in the main. I like that idea and might have to rework some numbers to try those lines. Chaos warping my own extra lands in an emergency for the win sounds like FUN!
Wild guess.....This solves problems and creates new ones. Yes it solves the setting chalice at one problem. Yes it solves the Faithless looting being a POS draw spell because it's card disadvantage at best. The problems that arise are worse than the problems it solves. Double red is impossible to hit turn 1 without blowing a spirit guide, at which point your back into card disadvantage. Double red is hard enough as it is. Using a sandstone counter will probably not be worth it (if it hasn't been wasted, they don't live long, trust me). The real problem it raises is that is eliminates options. Discarding a card before seeing the new cards means you have to commit to a line of play before receiving the new information. It might be ok as a one of for a faithless. I would never want more than 1, but one might be good in the late game when you end up with duplicate combo pieces.

Happy Smashing
-Ithaca is Gorges

Michael Keller
12-18-2012, 07:30 PM
Cards: (SUGGESTION PLEASE)
Someone else in the NY meta has been piloting this deck from what the grapevine tells me. I heard hes trying out chaos warp in the main. I like that idea and might have to rework some numbers to try those lines. Chaos warping my own extra lands in an emergency for the win sounds like FUN!
Wild guess.....This solves problems and creates new ones. Yes it solves the setting chalice at one problem. Yes it solves the Faithless looting being a POS draw spell because it's card disadvantage at best. The problems that arise are worse than the problems it solves. Double red is impossible to hit turn 1 without blowing a spirit guide, at which point your back into card disadvantage. Double red is hard enough as it is. Using a sandstone counter will probably not be worth it (if it hasn't been wasted, they don't live long, trust me). The real problem it raises is that is eliminates options. Discarding a card before seeing the new cards means you have to commit to a line of play before receiving the new information. It might be ok as a one of for a faithless. I would never want more than 1, but one might be good in the late game when you end up with duplicate combo pieces.

Happy Smashing
-Ithaca is Gorges

This would (probably) be me.

I ran a R/b variant I call "Gambit Attack" that runs Stronghold Gambit, Sneak Attack and targeted discard, in addition to Chaos Warp. I managed to Chaos Warp into some crazy shit this past weekend. I didn't feel like finishing the event after my second loss, but the deck was loads of fun to play and with a few tweaks could be a major contender.

xdavisx
12-19-2012, 01:17 AM
all this deck does is create amazing stories! here's a poorly done summary from some scg legacy event i did for a local play group.

ocotober-8
through a field of blue decks, i ended up 40th something. done told ya'll that i'd money with monored shitters.

4 Emrakul the Aeons Torn
3 Ulamog the Infinite Gyre
4 Blightsteel Colossus
3 Inferno Titan
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Sneak Attack
3 Through the Breach
2 Pyromancy
4 Seething Song
2 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the void
1 Lotus Petal

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Sandstone Needle
10 Mountain

Sideboard
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Through the Breach
1 Jaya Ballard Task Mage
1 Ravenous Trap
2 Blood Moon
3 Trinisphere
2 Pyroclasm

Playing this deck in a tournament setting, has been the most fun I've had playing legacy. Notable moments throughout the day.
- Hardcasting an Emakrul against a Miracles opponent.
- Blightsteeling for the win on turn 1/2 in multiple matches.
- Hardcasting Inferno Titan against U/R delver twice to kills his 2 flipped delvers, all while going to 1 life off ancient tomb.
-Tilting 3 opponents because our matches were done in less than 9 minutes.
- Smashing blue decks all day. Fuck your permission.

another fun story i like to tell is against goblins, my opponent goes...
turn 1- lackey.
turn 2- i play a mountain
turn 3- he attacks and drops siege gang commander
turn 4- i hard cast inferno titan nuking his lackey and siege-gang
turn 5- scoop

not much has changed from the list since i last played it but i found that i had the damnedest time against miracles and merfolk. i like the direction where you've taken it.

i'm not quite sold on the cutting of blightsteel. the dude is the real deal and won me many matches where i should have lost. i definitely like the reach griselbrand and worldspine can give > ulamog

about the "monored shitters" name, my friends gave me a lot of shit with this deck until i began smashing with it. they dubbed it "monored shitters" and the nickname stuck for us.

hdeck12
12-19-2012, 08:19 PM
@Hollywood: Yes, you are the one someone mentioned. I'm pretty new to the source and wasn't sure how anonymous people chose to stay. Did you play it at jupiter this month? A turn one thoughtseize taking their answer to gambit sounds like a strong line more often than not. I've tried to figure out how to splash black so that I can hardcast griselbro. The look on peoples faces when I cast inferno titan is priceless. I can only imagine its about the same if you manage to tap BBBB. I'm interested in your list if you wanna share.

@xdavisx:hahahahaha, the miracles match was a F***ING nightmare before the change. However, when you let this deck go into the super late game (which miracles always did), weird things start to happen. One time A humility let me get to infinite land. I cast blightsteel, then chaos warped his humility...and then he terminused....and then I untapped and hardcast emrakul, WIN. Chaos warping a Jace at 13 loyalty in a game three once was friggin sweet. WIN.

Not having blightsteel or chalice has helped me win the control matches, but has taken a lot of my game against storm combo away. Not really sure how I feel about this. I don't really wanna be a combo deck that loses to other combo decks so I think the next step in mono red is to try and fit some 'stompy' pieces back in.

Dinner time
-Ithaca is Gorges

Barbed Blightning
12-20-2012, 11:16 AM
Any thoughts been giving to Stranglehold? It's probably one of my favorite cards in red, but obviously a bit slow.

xdavisx
12-20-2012, 08:57 PM
blood moon in the main was really good for me, at worst it just baited out counters.

baghdadbob
12-20-2012, 10:08 PM
Any thoughts been giving to Stranglehold? It's probably one of my favorite cards in red, but obviously a bit slow.

It's a decent s/b card, but there are other cards I would rather have instead in my 15. It's really a meta call I think. Stranglehold stomps a few decks... but only a few. I think r.e.b. is just a much better option for the side.

hdeck12
12-21-2012, 09:59 AM
Stranglehold...no. The only deck it REALLY punishes is cloudpost, which I I'm 4-0 against in matches over all. I think they can just swords him too. Bad players will side out their removal, but the good players keep it in as it's not dead at all against us, just the 4 emrakuls in our deck. It can hurt fetchlands, but thats what we have moons for. One mana less, and much harder to remove.

Stupid commander cards showing up out of nowhere....I really gotta start reading those set lists.

xdavisx
12-24-2012, 06:48 PM
i attended GP indy this past weekend. i scrubbed out of the main event and on sunday signed up for some big 'super standard' event, i ALSO scrubbed out of that. there was another biggish legacy event at the same time as the standard one so i signed up late and took a first round loss. i tried out hdeck12's most current list with little changes due to card availability. i went 4-2 and like always had a blast playing it. here's a quick summary before i go into work.


7 Mountain
4 Sandstone Needle
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

1 Lotus Petal
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Seething Song
1 Grim Monolith

4 Sneak Attack
3 Through the Breach
2 Pyromancy

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Blightsteel Colossus
3 Griselbrand
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2 Worldspine Wurm

3 Inferno Titan

4 defense grid
4 faithless looting

Sideboard:

2 blightsteel colossus
1 through the breach
1 blood moon
1 Chaos Warp
4 Leyline of the Void
2 pyroclasm
2 pyroblast
2 red elemental blast

round 1 - loss

round 2 -STORM
game 1
turn 1 - he's on the play and sticks a delta into a underground sea and ponders.
turn 2- stick a blightsteel and crush

game 2
turn 1- he mulls to 6 and ponders again.
turn 2- i play a sandstone needle and pass.
turn 3- he plays cabal therapy and names sneak attack and whiffs.
turn 4- i draw the extra red source i need and connect with a blightsteel again.

round 3- enchantress
turn 1 - i play city of traitors into grim monolith and pass. i have only 1 red source in the form of simian spirit guide.
turn 2- he plays forest then utopia sprawl and passes
turn 3 - i draw a mountain cast sneak attack and drop emrakul then i flash him inferno titan and scoops.

game 2
turn 1- he plays forest into utopia sprawl and passes.
turn 2 - i play some sol land and pass.
turn 3 - he plays a land and enchantress presence and passes.
turn 4- i cast faithless looting and find a seething song and simian spirit guide. i then drop emrakul and he scoops.

round 4 goblins
game 1
turn 1 - he goes land into aether vial
turn 2 - i play a mountain and pass.
turn 3 - he ticks up vial, plays a land and passes.
turn 4- i drop emrakul and scoops.

game 2
i get waste landed out of the game and die.

game 3
turn 1 - i play a mountain and pass.
turn 2 - he plays mountain into vial.
turn 3 - i drop a blightsteel and win.

round 5 - RUG
wasnt much of game, i mulled both games with some bad draws and he had the force of wills and clutch krosan grip on a defense grid. i die.

round 6 - affinity
at this point everyone draws into top 8 and it's a bummer.

turn 1 - he pours his hand out and passes.
turn 2 - i drop emrakul and he scoops.

game 2
turn 1 - drops his hand out and passes.
turn 2 - i play a land and pass.
turn 3 - he draws 4 cards off thoughtcast pours more dudes on the board and hits for like 4.
turn 4 - i play another land and pass.
turn 5 - he attack me to single digits and passes.
turn 6 - he's tapped out and i drop a blightsteel and he dies.

i could have made top 8 if everyone didn't draw in, but dems the breaks. the top 8 had some solid players like ari lax, matt hoey, andrew shrout and gerry thompson. i woulda loved the opportunity to smash through em...except hoey. hoey would've crushed me, he helped playtest the shit out of this deck with me. i forgot to mention andrew was the RUG player i dropped a match to.

the deck was fine, idk how i feel about defense grid, it's good but i think REBs are fine out of the board, the deck usually has extra mana floating around to use. faithless looting was siq for me all day and in the testing i did against various other decks throughout the day. blood moon, chalice of the void should be considered again and i think ravenous trap is better than leyline and blightsteel should be at least a 3 of in the main IMO.

another card i feel deserves some talk is koth of the hammer out of the board against miracles, seeeems pretty dope in that matchup.

hdeck12
12-26-2012, 08:25 PM
Sounds like a blast. I would have loved to hear about you crushing some pros. Jupiter has taught me they're people too but it's still a feather in the cap.

Things about card selection:
If I were to run this deck outside my local meta I would play at least three blightsteel. Good call. I can't play him anymore because hes done to much local damage...I mean poison.

I tried the defense grids because I seemed to only lose to couterspells. I think cutting one or two for maindeck moons is a good idea. It solves the port/wasteland problem. Helps against most combo and can win a game turn one on the play.

I disagree with you on ravenous trap as effective grave hate. Iona against reanimator is your biggest weakness. Ravenous trap is pretty bad against a good reanimator opponent, and still bad against a force of will or a turn two reanimation. Dredge players can get caught off guard but can also slow dredge you out if therapy gets going. By all means run what you think is best and report your results but I think I'll be sticking to leylines/faerie macabres/tormads crypt/relic of progenitus/ or grafdiggers cage.

Red blasts are great. If you want to go that route it's worked for me in the past. I just got sick of siding them in so often because of a heavy blue meta. Defense grid is more effective main deck. I suggest Pyroblasts though. One fun moment I had with this deck. SCG Buffalo against RUG. Dont remember the game but It ended with me pyroblasting his goyf (man I got a funny look for this play) so I could pyromancy him for the win.

Koth. I've been rolling this idea in my head for a week. Then I read the card today. It deserves a spot somewhere. Not sure if its main or side, but his acceleration is good, and in a long game your mountains can take over. Definitely worth a look. I've also been thinking about some big permanent sweeper. Maybe even "obliterate" to help with long games.

I'm not sure when the next event I'll play in is, but my tunes for now are along the lines of, -1 defense grid main, +1 moon main, 3 blightsteel, maybe down a wurm and....?, -1 faithless looting + 1 wild guess, - grim monolith +1 rite of flame. -something + 1 koth.

Koby
12-27-2012, 04:16 PM
I am extremely fascinated by this deck.

What challenges does this deck face in matchups?
Does the deck lose to itself more than to its opponents?

hdeck12
12-27-2012, 06:34 PM
Lost to itself....very rarely. Mana denial is a good line of attack against us. Seething song is one of the best casrd in your opener against anyone. Beats the soft counters from blue, and accelerates you past anything else. There are some 5th copies of things to ensure consistency. The lotus petal (free red), the monolith (2 mana ritual), and the ulamog (anihilator). There certainly have been times when I've mulliganed myself out of a game, but almost never game one. Usually if I know I need a certain card or sequence I will mulligan until I see it and variance exists.

@Koby (or anyone listening): If you're headed to GP denver and are thinking about this deck let me know and I can walk you through the matchups with more detail.

Your challenges are control. Any tribal matchup is pretty much a joke. Merfolk can sometimes get there with blue blast out of the board but its rare. Titan is a fish fry.

This deck is a turn three combo deck. If you're not the aggressor in nearly all your games, then you're playing it wrong. TES (storm combo) is the only match that you're on defense. There are enough mana sources that you can play around soft counters pretty easily and then you just have too many threats for there set of force of wills. And you straight up blank cards like spell snare and abrupt decay. Another sweet point is that you don't catch other combo hate. Most of it is for storm or graveyard strategies.

Tough matchups:
Reanimator: against a good opponent will be nearly impossible unless he draws bad. Luckily their numbers are super low thanks to dredge hate and deathrite shaman. I choose leyline of the void as my hate because is doesn't interact with either thoughtseize or force of will.
Sneak show: I tested against an extremely high level player and won about 15% of games (didn't really do matches). In sanctioned events I'm something like 20-2 against sneak show players (my losses being to that guy I tested against)....wtf for now.
Miracles: was pretty tough, but since the addition of maindeck defense grids it's gotten way easier. Deep dark little secret...your spirit guides get cast and start attacking asap in this matchup.
RUG: Game one is tough if they know what you're doing, but after board you look a lot better.

If they're not playing blue or black, you win. If they're playing black, you probably win. Pyromancy is really good against discard spells and if they don't have you on a clock you'll quickly draw out of any situation. You have things in slightly higher numbers than most other decks are prepared for. If they're playing blue then you usually cast titan and ride him to the win while they counter your sneak spells.

Goblins seem to be everywhere right now. This is an easy matchup but is over fast no matter who wins. I think some more maindeck moons is the correct meta choice right now which helps this matchup a lot. Through the breach is the star of this one being able to be cast through a port lock.

Give it a whirl in your local meta or an SCG. If you like attacking with big things, you'll have a blast, and very few will have any clue what you're doing. "FOW your sneak attack" "ok" "daze your through the breach" "ok" "spell pierce your inferno titan, wait, huh...WHA!?!"

-Hdeck12

xdavisx
12-27-2012, 09:09 PM
i'm playing this in denver. lets hammer out a siq list

adamliniscus
12-28-2012, 01:10 AM
This is a great thread; mono-red sneak attack is a blast. The decklists you guys have posted are essentially state of the art Legacy-legal builds of Fujita's 2005 Extended Sneak Attack deck (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=9671), and as such I think the decklist deserves discussion in this thread:

Creatures (14)
2 Crater Hellion
4 Dragon Tyrant
1 Serra Avatar
3 Symbiotic Wurm
4 Rorix Bladewing
Lands (18)
4 Mountain
3 City of Traitors
3 Crystal Vein
4 Dwarven Ruins
4 Sandstone Needle
Spells (28)
4 Chrome Mox
4 Sneak Attack
4 Blazing Shoal
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Through the Breach
4 Gamble
Sideboard
4 Defense Grid
1 Duplicant
3 Serra Avatar
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Final Fortune
1 Cave-In


----

Fujita's creatures are dated but the fundamental technology and disruption hasn't changed much. The 2012 Legacy manabase is on the whole much better than the 2005 Extended manabase.

I think Pyromancy is a brilliant inclusion and a very strong reason to play this version of Sneak Attack. Especially with the huge mana costs on the guys we'd like to cheat in. Blazing Shoal is clearly no good when the best Sneak Attack creatures aren't red.

A question for those of you playing the deck: have you tried Chrome Mox or Gamble? Those stand out as the strongest cards from Fujita's list that nobody is talking about. If they're bad, then why are they bad?

xdavisx
12-28-2012, 02:56 AM
i don't think the deck runs enough red cards to pitch to chrome mox. i wouldn't want to pitch pieces of the combo like seething song, sneak attack or through the breach. simian spirit guide does the same job but you know... can lay some beats if he really has to.

gamble seems dope but the random discard might keep us from going off the current/following turn. i feel faithless looting is just better in that slot.

Esper3k
12-28-2012, 05:22 AM
This deck seems awesome to me - almost like a combo version of Dragon Stompy!

hdeck12
12-28-2012, 07:47 PM
@adamliniscus: xdavis x is right on. In legacy you really can't be doing random things. The reason we get away with it with pyromancy is because A)we cast our rituals to activate pyromancy ensuring what is discarded is a nuke, or B)it doesn't matter whats discarded because any card in your hand kills Bob. I've seen some lists with gamble. It really is a gamble, and I don't want to tap a mountain, use up a card and then potentially discard the the card I just tutored up. This deck is too good for that. We don't have the red cards to pitch for chrome mox. Mox diaomond or mox opal (with a chalice/trinishphere build) would probably be more useful if useful at all.

Blazing shoal introduces an interesting play. I'm not opposed to considering it as a one of. I've been looking for a 1CC arcane spell to splice through the breach on. This one actually works being able to pitch spirit guide (=1CC) or even titan if really necessary. Downside is there needs to be a legal target in play to use it. Some other options for this are desperate ritual or glacial ray. The ritual being the weaker of the two because we can't actually use the mana to splice with.

@xdavisx: what are your thoughts on Agent of Stromgald or Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth? You thought casting inferno titan was fun, this could be a whole new ball game.

-Hdeck

xdavisx
12-29-2012, 02:11 PM
Agent of Stromgald and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth would be sweet but i think the inclusion of them would slow the deck down and make it a bit more inconsistent. i also don't like the idea of adding another wasteland target. i think it would be a whole new deck to build around along the lines of what hollywood was doing with discard and stronghold gambit.

xdavisx
01-02-2013, 02:47 PM
@hdeck12 i'm heading out to denver this weekend and i'm looking for some pointers. here's a list i thought up with some of the card choices you've suggested.


4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 inferno titan
2 worldspine warm
2 griselbrand
3 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 simian spirit guide

4 seething song
4 sneak attack
4 through the breach
3 faithless looting
1 lotus petal
2 pyromancy
3 defense grid
1 grim monolith
1 bloodmoon

4 ancient tomb
4 sandstone needle
3 city of traitors
7 mountain

sideboard

3 koth of the hammer
2 pyroblast
1 bloodmoon
2 pyroclasm
4 leyline of the void
2 chaos warp
? obliterate or 3rd chaos warp


about the sideboard, koth is there for the easy swap out for inferno titans against miracles. i really like the idea of obliterate but is it better than another blood moon, chaos warp or a 4th blightsteel. i would like to squeeze the 4th blightsteel in the main but do you think it would make it to threat heavy?

hdeck12
01-02-2013, 09:22 PM
@xdavisx: I've been working on a match ups write up for you. I should finish it tonight, don't really wanna post the whole thing on here since surprise is our best weapon, but check your notifications tomorrow, or tonight depending on your sleep habbits.

crovax86
01-03-2013, 09:02 AM
I love this deck. I played a similar list a few weeks ago making a 3-3 in a meta plenty of Jund/BUG/Team America. I have to say that IMHO the deck requires at least 2-3 blood moon main deck (or 2 main 1 side) and 4 Leyline of Sanctity ready to side in to stop the discard effects.
Other considerations:

- Why don't we cut 1xGrim Monolith for a basic Mountain to stabilize a little more the manabase?
- Aren't 15 beasts excessive? I think 12-13 are perfect for our purpose. We could use 2 slots for the second blood moon and the third pyromancy.
- Isn't Blightsteel Colossus a "risky creature"? In our dream it's very easy: song - breach/sneak - colussus - win. But in reality a single deathrite shaman with a 2 toughness it's enough to stop the infection. So, I'd prefer more copy of Worldspine Wurm at this rate..


@ xdavisx: Good luck and don't forget to report us!! We need to improve this beautiful deck!!

igri_is_a_bk
01-03-2013, 10:46 AM
Other considerations:

- Aren't 15 beasts excessive? I think 12-13 are perfect for our purpose. We could use 2 slots for the second blood moon and the third pyromancy.
- Isn't Blightsteel Colossus a "risky creature"? In our dream it's very easy: song - breach/sneak - colussus - win. But in reality a single deathrite shaman with a 2 toughness it's enough to stop the infection. So, I'd prefer more copy of Worldspine Wurm at this rate..



Excluding SSG & Titan, I think 11-12 creatures is the right call. That's a generally accepted area among combo players for finding at least one of a certain card-type.
Yes, and I said this a while ago, but everyone ignored it. My point was exactly the same as yours: if they have two or greater toughness untapped, you have to draw two Colossi to win, and your first one traded with only one creature. I'd rather have Emrakul, Grislebrand, Worldspine, Titan, Ulamog, and/or Woodfall Primus before the Colossus.

hdeck12
01-03-2013, 09:14 PM
@Crovax Your meta is begging for moons. Sorry you showed up with the wrong plan. Titan is not a piece of the combo. He's our back up plan. Two turn clock (3 damage on cast, swing for 9 twice, firebreathing if you have to) off a solo creature that we don't even need to cheat in is too sweet. He's usually cast against tempo decks to beat spell pierce, Aggro decks to beat 3 x/1s and Maverick to kill Green Suns Zenith x=2.

This list very easily can cut Defense grid X3, Blightsteel X3 In order to add Blood Moon X2 and Magus of the moon X4. Thats the disruption package I was using the first time I took this competitive. You literally go turn one or two moon effect every game. I found myself drawing too many blanks and I just couldn't figure out how to mulligan. I bet there's a good number between 1 and 7 (3 blood 4 magus), but I have yet to make a plan for it. The reason I play one, is because two are literally useless if the first isn't dealt with, and I (almost) never have to decide if keeping a weak turn one moon hand will be good enough. Its not game over if they crack one fetch, if you're relying on moon, it can be. In a combo deck like this we just can't afford too many more dead cards. Main deck Moons was one of the inspirations for actually trying this as a real deck. Unfortunately I've managed to tune most of them out since their effect is much like stifle...always in the back of your opponents mind. Its real easy to sell that you're playing a moon effect to someone. They will bite and fetch basics like their life depends on it, cause it does, lets face it, a moon makes tundra pretty dumb.

@igri I agree. Blightsteel got a lot worse with the printing of the last set. The problem is we have no real way to interact with storm combo, Ad nauseum specifically. With Silence out of TES, Probe/Therapy out of ANT and infinite cantrips in each, we're just a turn slower every time. Yes, emrakul is great, yes griselbrand is great. Problem is, thats only 7 slots for one combo piece which you clearly know is not enough. Without a tutor like intuition or x-wish we go for a smooth blend of pieces. In comes Blightsteel for speed, and Worldspine for Depth. The numbers on both are a meta choice. Ulamog (annihilator #5): enough power for pyromancy, not enough game ending skills for a consistent target. In a combo match they still have enough life to ad nauseum after losing a land or two. In a control match, the annihilator 4 just isn't enough to clear the board after a few turns. Grisel: We just don't want 4. He's a means to an end, not an end. Having two in your opener is really like having 6 cards. Two emrakuls means game over in two sneak activations, two grisels means more than the 14 cards we already drew from the first? If they didn't do it, I wouldn't bet on the next 7. I play 3 titans main, 1 board. I never really want more than 1, and against most aggro decks, all we need is one. Primus. This one was considered upon initial construction. He's a sweet creature, but not by himself. He's not a fast enough clock, he's not castable (I know you don't think blightsteel is either, but legacy is all about options and being dynamic, sometimes it happens), he doesn't fit the "we only need two pyromancy activations to win" plan, and well, destroying two lands just hasn't been good enough in testing. Most decks can recover in 4 turns and without any real evasion he doesn't survive. If his ability was destroy target permanent, I'd play him. But everytime I find him, I'd rather destroy a creature. He could serve the same purpose as chaos warp out of the board. 3 mana instant speed vs comboing off in order to get rid of hate though. I'll take the 3 mana 1 card option, not 5 mana 2 card option. I think they're all fine targets but deserve their own builds with different support cards. Maybe gatecrash will make us happy...

hdeck12
01-03-2013, 09:22 PM
And Grim Monolith is actually seething song number 5. That spot has gone back and fourth between City of traitors and Sandstone needle. For now I've settled on the monolith. It most likely won't be in the next iteration.

bruizar
01-04-2013, 12:50 AM
Board in Stronghold Gambit if you want to race storm/time spiral

http://www.black-lotus.nl/mtg/lg/Nemesis/Stronghold_Gambit.jpg

civet five
01-04-2013, 02:45 AM
Board in Stronghold Gambit if you want to race storn/time spiral

basically a free Show and Tell. nice

bruizar
01-04-2013, 04:46 AM
T1 land, spirit guide, stronghold gambit emrakul is quiet powerful =] You can even board it against SNT decks as long as you reveal a cheaper creature than they have. Stronghold Gambit is asymmetric.

crovax86
01-04-2013, 11:09 AM
@hdeck12: Thank U for the hint, my fear in playing 7 moon effects is, as you said, see them more than necessary. But maybe lootings will help to "cycle" the unnecessary. Anyway I'll test this configuration in my Jund/Bug/TA meta and I'll let you know!

For what concerns creatures nowadays (excluding SSG and Titan) the best configuration IMHO is: 4x Emrakul, 4x Worldspine Wurm and 3x Griselbrand.
Ulamog's annihilator is not so effective, plus it can be easily blocked (it doesn't fly, it doesn't trample..) - ok, if we "ramp" 11 we can cast it but..how many times it can happen? Worldspine with a single attack gives us more assurances.

@bruizar: Stronghold Gambit could be a nice "side-in" vs some matchups - Miracle Control (usually they play only 2x Vendilion, and vs us side out the snares), ANT/TES, Spiral Tide, Enchantress..vs show and tell if U "gambit" inferno titan or Griselbrand (at worst we've both lost a creature with the difference that the opponent loss will be unplanned)..
I think that card deserves a test.

bruizar
01-04-2013, 11:55 AM
I'd even try them main if I could squeeze in gitaxian probes. If they are keeping creatures in hand to keep you from using stronghold gambit, you aren't getting much pressure most of the time. So you can build your mana and go for Sneak Attack or Through the Breach . If they don't keep it in hand, you steal the game.

hessenbob
01-04-2013, 03:47 PM
I've been playing this recently with good luck.

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Inferno Titan
4 Worldspine Wurm
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Griselbrand

4 Seething Song
4 Through the Breach
3 Faithless Looting
3 Pyromancy

4 Sneak Attack

1 Lotus Petal
1 Grim Monolith
3 Defense Grid
8 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Sandstone Needle

I played this recently and went 2-1 with it in our local tournament. Here were my thoughts (I didn't take any notes, so sorry they are slim).
- Won vs Maverick, Affinity, and lost to Dredge. Had to leave before the tournament was over.

Pyromancy- at 2 Pyromancy I was not drawing it. I was drawing it at 3.

Worldspine over Ulamog- I like having 4 Worldspine to turn into trampler tolkens over a sole Ulamog.

Why 2 Griselbrand instead of 3- I rarely wanted more than one in hand at any point. 2 in opening hand effectively acted as a mulligan for me.

Defense Grid at 3- I did not need to use them at all out of the 4 rounds in our local tournament. I previously was running 4, but found I'd rather have 3 Pyromancy.

Inferno Titan at 4- I was surprised that I hard casted him twice in one game, and hard casted him a total of 4 times over the night. One time it was a beautiful turn 2.

Last Note
- 3x Volcanic Fallout was unbelievable in killing Noble Hierarchs, Deathrite Shamans, miscellaneous aggro guys, and goblins. I ended up siding them in for Defense Grids almost all night, and would have run them Mainboard if I could have guessed the extent of the absence of Blue decks.


edited- I think I forgot to put Worldspine at 4 in my first post.

hdeck12
01-05-2013, 12:29 AM
@hessenbob- I'm STOKED! But a little disappointed you think you had good 'luck' with Big_Red.dec. Your mainboard wasn't set up for the meta and you still crushed! Against maverick you didn't have karakas or a moon, against affinity you didn't have the moon, and against both you had defense grids. I agree with all your numbers other than 4 titan, I like 3 titan main, 1 side, 1 moon main. He may come back with the rise of deathrite and goblins, this weekend will tell. Its nice to hear someone advocate for 2 grisels. Thats what I want to play but the peanut gallery thinks I'm nuts.

Gambit-Great card, deserves a whole different build. See Hollywood's 'The Shining'. VS Spiral tide...SWEET. VS Ad Nauseum...no where near as sweet. Playlines: On the Play, Turn 1 "S&T Emrakul, pass." "Land, LED, Petal...Kill you?" "Darn" Line 2 Turn 1 "S&T Emrakul, pass." "Land, Ponder Pass" Smash 15 kill your land, pass" "Land, LED, Petal...Kill you?" "Double darn" On the Draw, Exact same scenario except your opponent gets an extra turn. What you need for this combo vs blightsteel isn't worth it in my head. I'm not a mathematician but the heart of the cards wants blightsteel. Turn 1 4 card combo (5 if you need probe) to let the game continue two more turns or 5 card combo to end the game. The 5th card needing to be seething song or 2 of 5 single source rituals. Definitely worth a look, but I think its a side board card at best in this model. But I'm not even sure for what matchups. Even Enchantress has tiny creatures. Its dead in most games without information. And I have no idea where to fit probe in.

Ulamog-I've often thought about cutting this rogue eldrazi. Actually being able to cast him is a pretty bad defense I'll admit. The real defense is that we are a turn 2-3 combo deck. On the play thats your opponents 1-2. Very few decks have >4 permanents on the board by this time. He essentially is an emrakul in our game 1 plan A. I see the other side of the argument too. I get way more joy out of crashing in with worldspine than I ever expected I would when I added him to the deck.

Volcanic Fallout-YES. Just YES.

Question. Do we really want to be playing 1 blightsteel? I was using one because its a nice surprise and 'unkarakasable'. But is he just sitting in your hand too often? Without a second he's pretty dead against a couple decks and really dead against a lot of decks if they see your hand. I don't want 4 worldspine, but if anyone out there has an idea for a SWEET out of the box 1 of....I'm looking.

Darkenslight
01-05-2013, 04:52 AM
The cards that really stick out for me are Maelstrom Archangel and Mindleech Mass. I'd say Hellcarver Demon, but that's very much an all-in plan even beyond the normal all-in plan of the deck.

hessenbob
01-06-2013, 12:28 PM
Couple other notes.

I think I may make a few changes if I play in next weeks tournament:

I will probably run Volcanic Fallout mainboard, based on my experience last tournament.

4x Leyline of Sanctity in the Sideboard. I was very prone to lots of discard spells.

3x Faithless Looting- I'm unsure of whether I would rather run Wild Guess. The problem I see with Wild Guess is that I potentially use up Sandstone Needle too early. On the other hand, going to 6 after a mulligan and getting a Faithless looting wasn't usually helpful.

Maelstrom Archangel- I like this card's interaction, and may consider him. Drawing him and Worldspine/Emrakul in your opener looks great. You get the benefit of casting Emrakul, or the benefit of a biggie that you don't have to sac at your endstep. However, I could see him being in my hand with no good targets.

igri_is_a_bk
01-06-2013, 02:20 PM
Why run Volcanic Fallout in the main over Blood Moon? The only creature that really stops us is Gaddock Teeg, and he's not in many decks. We also have Inferno Titan in there for a reason. I'd spread out my support cards, instead of focusing on creatures only. Blood Moon destroys RUG and BUG, and slows down every other deck in some way. Besides, you want to be aggressive, even when you're not casting win conditions. Fallout doesn't fit that bill. Cards like Blood Moon and Chalice of the Void do. Although, Fallout looks like an excellent sideboard card.

Here's something else I've wanted to touch on after seeing a rather poor trend start. Defense Grid is a sideboard card. It's narrow, because it hardly affects non-blue decks. Put it back where it belongs, fellas.

@hdeck. I agree with your position on Colossus being a necessary evil for combo. I wouldn't want to sacrifice every game one in those matches, so I'll stick with three of him for now.

And my final random thought is that Maelstrom Angel turns your two card combo into a three card combo. Based on intuition, I wouldn't play it.

hdeck12
01-09-2013, 03:44 PM
@xdavisx...how'd it go?

xdavisx
01-10-2013, 04:07 PM
@hdeck12 unfortunately i was unable to play. i feel terrible for not being able to have a report for you guys. i did enlighten some new friends on the deck and they look forward to playing it at some big events in the near future, so keep an eye out for that.

hdeck12
01-10-2013, 05:30 PM
@xdavisx: No worries bro. Sometimes life gets in the way, thats why Magic is a 'hobby.'

I'll be slinging this list at SCG Edison on 2/10 if anyone wants to stop by and see it in action. Well, unless gatecrash has something even more fun that lets me play simian spirit guides.

I'm not really sure exactly what the tune will be. Pat Cox kinda screwed us on maindecking defense grid. I have to re-think that one. Hope to hear some more reports from anyone trying this out. Theres a ton of potential in it and we haven't even perfected a list yet.

TheStallion0192
01-11-2013, 09:21 PM
I'm testing this deck online and am wondering what exactly comes out for what cards in certain match ups?

hdeck12
01-13-2013, 01:23 AM
Tournament Report from Mythic Games Elmira NY 01/12/13 6 rounds

To my opponents, If I remember anything incorrectly, I apologize.
This morning I was planning on playing a KOTR bant brew I’ve been working on at local FNMs for quite some time. After writing out my decklist and scanning the room I saw more deathrite shamans and lilianas than I wanted to deal with. So I audibled to Big Red with 15 minutes before tournament time and this is the list I slammed together according the meta I scouted…

4 seething song
1 desperate ritual
1 wild guess
3 Faithless Looting
4 sneak attack
2 pyromancy
4 through the breach
3 inferno titan
2 blood moon
1 defense grid
2 chaos warp
2 griselbrand
4 emrakul, the aeons torn
1 ulamog, the infinite gyre
2 blightsteel
2 worldspine wurm
3 sandstone needle
1 lotus petal
4 simian spirit guide
6 mountain
2 city of traitors
2 karakas
4 ancient tomb


Sideboard
1 aether flash
1 meekstone
1 blood moon
2 volcanic fallout
2 defense grid
4 leyline of sanctity
4 leyline of the void

Major changes being out one grim monolith in one desperate ritual and a side board/main deck shuffle of Blood moon, defense grid and chaos warp.

Roud 1 Anthony (Tony?) with B/W dead guy
Game 1
I’m on play and mul to 6. I keep double sandstone needle, double sneak effect, double fathless looting. Thinking he’s on some B/X deadguy brew I like all the doubles. He’s probably putting me on Sneak/X so he wouldn’t keep 7 without discard. So of course I lead sandstone…pass. He answers with wasteland. Turn two, draw faithless looting, not terrible but I’m only playing three, tough variance. Play sandstone…pass. He answers with wasteland. I don’t see another red source for 6 turns as a protection black/green stoneforge kills me.
Board in some 4 leylines 1 moon and 2 fallouts
Out defense grid, 1 blightsteel, 2 inferno titan 3 seething song
Game2
I mul to 6 and keep a turn one blood moon with 3 sol lands a guide emrakul . Play the moon on turn one. Play out my lands and draw sneak attack and pyromancy. A few faithless turns later I have 4 “mountains” in play. He has a plains he’s made sure not to tap the whole game and a lotttta mountains. I play out a pyromancy and he immediately disenchants it before I can untap and throw my hand at him. A lot of players would have disenchanted the moon as soon as they drew the plains. This is why I hate playing against Anthony. Had he done that, I would have gotten access to all my sol lands and just blown him out 5 turns earlier…he’s patient. I eventually draw a fifth red source before he could find a swamp, chaos warped his plains on his next end step, which revealed a thoughtseize and blightsteel sealed the game.
Game 3
my 7 has a sandstone and a city of traitors for sources. Can’t keep based on last game. My 6 has zero mana sources. My 5 has two city of traitors. I keep 4 with City, a leyline, a breach and emrakul. He slowly builds up his board making sure not to tap out. Better for me because I need to draw some lands. Just before he crosses the 6 permanent threshold, I am in the frustrating position that had desperate ritual been a grim monolith (and he wasn’t holding disenchant, possible since he had a full grip of probable discard kept at bay by my leyline.) I would have been able to steal the game. But alas, I was then not too slowly beaten down by a protection from red/blue, and black/green stoneforge.

0-1 drat, but I can come back.

Round 2 Royce with T.E.S.
Game 1
On the draw. Never met him, no idea what he’s on. My 6 gets kept with lands ritual emrakul defense grid. On the play I get two draw steps and miss a sneak effect on both. I die on his turn three to a tendrils for 20.
Board in Moon, 2 Fallout, 4 Sanctity
Out 2 pyromancy, 1 wild guess, 1 faithless looting, 1 sandstone needle, 2 karakas
Game two, I keep 6 with t turn 1 faithless turn three emrakul. If I hit seething song on the faithless, emrakul is turn 2. Turn one faithless into not seething song, Pass. Lots of mana, infernal tutor for infernal tutor for burning wish, tendrils for 20.
0-2 Double drat, probably can’t top 8 on tie breakers but can still top 16.

Round 3 Scott with Elves
Game 1 I know scott likes to play elves, my spaghetti monsters have ruined his forest production before. I keep a strong 6 (man, lots of mulligans today) on the draw and I get attacked by one nettle sentinel. Then another nettle sentinel, and then emrakul. Ouch, so that’s how that feels.
Side board in 2 fallout, 1 moon, 1 aether flash
Out 1 defense grid, 2 pyromancy, 1 wild guess
Game 2 I keep 7, finally! He attacks with a nettle sentinel. He attacks with a nettle sentinel and an elf. He attacks with 3 elfs, I through the breach and block with griselbrand. Then draw 14 cards and untap. I manage to cast a desperate ritual, with through the breach spliced on it, and then the through the breach itself (ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED!!), droping emrakul, and worldspine. I had enough mana to fallout this turn as well, but Scott’s a nice guy so no reason to showoff.
Game 3
I get to keep 7 again. I do a little looting to set up. He managed to green suns zenith for two at some point. I freak out inside thinking he just might have boarded in teeg. Nope, just the elf that taps for all other elves. I need one more red source to alpha strike with sneak attack. He starts to tap a lotta mana and I get sad because it feels like combo time. He then drops Joraga kicked 4 times and has <6 permanents. I don’t wait for my 3rd red source to alpha strike, I just emrakul the board and finish off with titan the following turn.

1-2 ok, we’re not a failure today, but playing more for research than prizes at this point.

Round 4 ??? (I’m sorry I didn’t write your name down, if you’re reading this remind me, you were a nice guy and it’s cool meeting people that play vintage) with B/G Rock?
Game 1
He flips a bob while shuffling so I figure he’s on B/G/X since that seems to be the trend today. I get to keep 7, so does he. Turn 3 emrakul wraps up the board and turn 4 titan finishes it.
Board In 4 leyline, 1 moon
Out 1 defense grid, 2 seething song, 2 faithless looting
Game 2
I keep 7, He keeps 6. Turn one thoughtseize keeps me from emrakul-ing turn 2. I draw a griselbrand and decide to through the breach it on his end step (or in response to the next discard spell if I have to) which works. I draw a bunch, untap, and get emrakul into play for 22 damage.
2-2 ok, we got a shot

Round 5 Doug McKay with Shardless control
Game 1
I enjoy playing against doug and really hate it at the same time. He’s a really nice guy and a fun brain to pick, but he’s really good at reading the game state and knowing what your options are. You might be seeing a trend in that I’m only playing nice guys, but that’s what’s sweet about mythic games. It’s a competitive environment full of nice guys, come check it out if you’re ever in upstate NY. Back to Doug, I know he’s on shardless but not sure of the exact build. I keep a sweet 7, he goes to 6. A thoughseize gets my sneak attack. A force of will gets my pyromancy And a clique leaves me with my hand and beats me down before I can assemble anything significant.
Board In 2 volcanic fallout, 1 moon, 2 defense grid 1 aether flash 4 leyline sanctity (I’ve never tested this and may have over boarded but it all seemed right)
Out 3 seething song, 2 blightsteel, 3 faithless looting 1 wild guess 1 karakas
Game 2
I I keep 6 to his 7. He doesn’t want the 7 on the draw but after I go to 6 he decides to keep the 7. So I’lm guessing he doesn’t have the Force. I keep 6 missing a spirit guide for turn 1 kill if there’s no force. Turn two if there’s no thoughtsieze. Turn 1 I play tomb defense grid. Turn two needle, turn three hardcast inferno titan while he has two lands and a top. Turn 4. I have a decision to make. I have enough land that if I use the faithless looting in my hand and hit a through the breach I can emrakul kill or the one seething song left to fire breath him to death. In order to do this I would have to use my last sandstone counter with no other access to red until I draw one. Doug has been topping and shuffling and much as possible so I figure he can’t answer inferno titan yet and it might just kill him. So I play it safe and just attack him down to 5. Being the McKay Magician he is, he manages to dig just far enough to bolt, snapcaster bolt my titan. I land a second defense grid and he keeps tapping out so I know no counters are looming. If I draw a sneak effect it’s over. Jace hits the board and fateseals one away. Snapcaster beats me down to 6. At this point I think I have two turns left. I should have used my last red to loot this turn and I would have hit the sneak and won. Instead I wait a turn and he digs as deep as possible and finds another bolt to kill me a turn before I can finish the game. Well played doug, not sure how many cards you saw this game but it must have been a lot. I also should have faithlessly looted the first time I had the decision, I forgot that with the red floating from the last sandstone counter I could have flashed it back and gone four cards deep. I would have hit the breach before jace could seal it away. I wasn’t playing my best magic today. All week I thought about a different deck and it showed today.
2-3 not completely outta top 16 but probably.

Round 6 Rob 4 color living wish control?
Game 1
I run my blood moon right into a spell pierce on turn two. Really Henry…really!? Turn 3 I run my chaos warp right into a spell pierce. Really Henry…REALLY!?!? Liliana hits the board. I discard. I loot. I discard. If I remember the faithless looting in my graveyard then I hit what I need and win (if he doesn’t have another spell pierce) Instead I do nothing and pass. Liliana makes me discard just enough that I can’t do anything constructive the rest of the game. I die to ancient tomb damage and deathrite shocks.
Side board In 1 moon 1 aether flash 2 defense grid
Out 2 blightsteel, 1 faithless looting, 1 seething song
Game 2 Man I love variance. Draw 7, no land, Draw 6, no land, draw 5 everything in including a moon but land, wtf looking like the last game of the day, I don’t feel like shuffling again, today was rough. I don’t draw a land for 5 for 6 turns while I get beat down by something, my head wasn’t in it at this point, sorry rob.


"It is at this juncture that the old man tries autosuggestion talking to himself aloud, that man is not made for defeat and a man can be destroyed but not defeated."
-Earnest Hemingway

A few over all points from the day.
In shuffling cards this morning I cut a karakas for a moon, then decided to play the second karakas and cut a mountain for it. Bad idea. 7 Mountains is the minimum I’m going to play from here on out.
Desperate ritual over grim monolith, I like it, I’ll keep trying it. 6 land to have a 5th through the breach and then floating more mana was nice in that matchup. Lots of people had dead “destroy target nonland permanent with CC<4” in their hands.
Wild Guess: I forced this in because of the flavor text. Fun. Not competitive.
In playing bant all week I had a big tool box. I got greedy in my Big Red tool belt and played too many 2 ofs. Faithless looting + flashback is NOT brainstorm + shuffle. I don’t think the two non essential monster split is correct. I think it should be 3/1 or 3/0 for a 3rd griselbrand, whichever you think will be better in your meta. I choose worms 3/1 for now.
Ulamog…you guys were right. I think I’ve decided to let this guy go. He’s done a lot of work for me in the past but I don’t think we have a future.
I still stand by my statements that this is an awesome deck. The deck didn’t lose matches to itself. It lost a game here or there, but I tended to throw games away by my actions which cost me matches. I also felt very unprepared boarding today. Our local shop closed in November so I haven’t been testing nearly as much. I don’t know these new B/G/X lists 100%.

Hows your testing going?
-HDeck

crovax86
01-13-2013, 10:17 AM
Hi man, thank U for the report, U're always very accurate. You drew just terrible first hands, so take it just for a day of bad luck... Now, I have some good news: last weekend I finished first in a 48 people local league tournament here in Italy; just today I found some time to write here about that. Here's my list:


4 Sandstone Needle
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
8 Mountain

4 Emrakul
4 Worldspine Wurm
3 Griselbrand
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Magus of the Moon

3 Blood Moon
3 Pyromancy
4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach
4 Seething Song
4 Faithless Looting

1 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox


Side:

4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Defense Grid
3 Pyroclasm
3 Koth of the Hammer
1 Woodfall Primus



My meta is plenty of BUG/Jund/Rock deck tipology; that's the reason for the five "moon effects". I think that's the right compromise between 1 and 7 whom hdeck12 wrote about a few posts ago.

Then I just cut Inferno Titans for more "moon stability" with the Magus. 4 Worldspine Wurm beacuse it wins alone and 3 Pyromancy, IMHO one of the best and unexpected solution that this deck can offer. The Mana Base is very stable with 8 Mountains and 11 "double land". I have no fear 'bout karakas..moon effects, pyromancy, non-legendary wurms and double sneak-emrakul activation prevent you from any karakas-inconvenience.

For what concern the side I just say that I'll easily replace Koths with Chaos warps. Woodfall Primus is just a "fantasy slot", maybe next time I'll try 2x Stronghold Gambit.

Quick report of the day:


Round 1 - Goblins

G1 - He starts land-vial, go. I rush a Tomb-Simian-Song-Sneak-Emrakul certain to find another red mana source (I had another Emrakul in hand). Next turns he plays land-land-piledriver-piledriver-lackey + attacks and wins. The turn after I would've drew a Mountain. :mad:

G2 - Side in 3 Pyroclasm, side out 3 blood moon. Turn three win with sneak-worldspine.

G3 - He Krosan Grips me twice on sneak and pyromancy. At my third attempt i cast sneak. He tries to Krosan Grip me for the third time but this time he must fetch first, so I double red for emrakul/wurm gg.

1-0


Round 2 - Jund Destructive Flow

Jund version with more basics and the annoying enchantment.

G1 - I'm in a very bad position, he tseizes me twice in the first turns, he plays shaman and two bloodbraids. I'm like 6 life, he attacks me with the elves, I istant through the breaches for Griselbrand and block one of them, goin' to 10, eot draw 7, Griselbrand dies. My turn sneak + wurm/emrakul gg.

G2 - Side in Leylines for the moon effects cause he plays too much basics. Keep 7 without Leyline but with a good hand, unfortunately he has a very good hand with tseize and extirpate. So turn 2 I have no more sneaks in the deck. Then I resolve pyromancy, he resolves destructive flow, I begin to sacrifice my lands but first I succeed to 11 pyro him discarding the wurm. He sacrifices lands too, cause he has in play two of the few nonbasic in his deck, he fetches, play shaman, my turn shoot the shaman with a discarded song to slow him down. So it happens and pass, I have two mountains in play and a Leyline in hand, I pass, he fetches again and pass. I draw a SSG, potentially 4 damages, but he's 5, I pass, he fetches again, I answer him removing SSG, tapping 2, discarding Leyline gg :smile: He's not very happy....

2-0


Round 3 - Burn

G1 - On the play, sandstone needle, pass, he plays a mountain and suspends a Rift Bolt, I play another needle pass, he shoots me 3 than plays a Devil, ok, passes, Tomb-Sneak-emrakul/wurm gg.

G2 - Side in 4 Leyline and a Primus (just to have one more beast), side out 5 moon effects. Keep 7 with Leyline, (basically game over for him) I play lands with no rush and turn 3 resolve a TTB for Worldspine who let his little brothers to finish the match.

3-0 (unexpected, I begin to believe in top)


Round 4 - Nic Fit

G1 - He succeed to sacrifice the explorer only at turn 3, he plays Thragtusk and since he also donates 2 mountains to me, in my turn I play sneak Emrakul/Wurm gg.

G2 - Same Burn side in/side out (Nic Fit like the previous version of Jund plays a lot of basics). I keep an awesome 7 without Leyline. He plays swamp (no discard, no discard, no discard), passes :smile: and I honestly tomb/simian/song/breach/wurm him gg. (The "dies ability" of wurm is simply amazing!! Wins alone!)

4-0

Round 5 (Jund) and Round 6 (ANT) I.D.


I'm first in Top 8 with the highest rating. (!!!)


Quarterfinals - Esper Stoneblade

G1 - Here's a very though match. He mull to 6, me too, but in 2 turns he tseizes me twice :frown: letting me without sneak and moon, he resolves a mystic, I try a pyromancy but he forces it, then he close the match with batterskull+mystic+vendilion.

G2 - I'm not so optimistic, but I wanna fight!! Side in 4 Leyline and 2 Defense Grid, side out 1 wurm, 1 pyromacy, 1 TTB, 1 Blood Moon, 1 Song, 1 Looting. I keep 7 with leyline, then I play tomb and defense grid. Total defense!! :wink: He plays land and pass, I remove SSG and play Magus of the Moon, he's a bit in trouble, cause he's slowed down with mana (although he plays a few of basics), turns of "land - attack - go", he goes to 11, then he plays Jace and bounce the magus, my turn I try to re-cast but he forces it; well, cause my next turn I play sneak and next turn despite 4 Lingering souls and karakas I finish the match with griselbrand and emrakul double-activating sneak.

G3 - I can do this! I side out Leylines cause I decide to be more aggressive and think that after he saw Leylines maybe he'd add some counter taking out some discard effect. So I side in 1 Wurm, 1 Pyromancy, 1 Defense Grid and 1 Song. He thinks a lot but in the end we both keep 7. He starts land kozilek, (not seize, I'm lucky!) discarding a moon. He pass and I draw SSG, so I can go turn 1 for pyromancy or sneak/emrakul. I chose sneak cause he thought a lot before keeping and I think it's beacuse he's in mana screw. He forces the sneak removing counterspell :mad: After a few turns I resolve a chrome mox, play a sneak and finish him with Emrakul despite two mystics and karakas.

Can't believe it but I made it! A very very though game anyway!!


Semifinals - Jund

G1 - I resolve a quick moon, but the shaman is already in play, he tourach me two lands, so he succeed to cast two bloobraid and when I play Sneak/Emrakul, he sacrifices everything except them, he goes to 4, I pass, he attacks, I go to 5, need a topdeck but...is an ancient tomb :frown:

G2 - Side in 4 Leyline, side out 1 looting, 1 magus, 1 griselbrand, 1 pyromancy. Keep 7 with Leyline :smile: but a slow hand, he plays shaman, goyf and liliana but turn 4 I through the breach a wurm and, already said that, wins alone.

G3 - Keep 7 with..Leyline :laugh: he's really unhappy..I resolve a turn 3 sneak-emrakul, he sacrifices everything, next turn I play Pyromancy and even if I had a sneakkable wurm, I preferred tap 6 discarding him and a Leyline, 15 damages gg.


Final - ANT

He's very tired (me too) and asks me if I'm ok with split the prices. "Sure" I said, also considering that ANT is not a great MU for us. He also let me the first place cause he usually doesn't play at our leauge so he's not interested at the points.


I hope you liked this little report!! Let's keep this deck alive!

hdeck12
01-13-2013, 12:01 PM
@ Crovax: Awesome! I'm glad that my bad drawing so poorly meant someone else was drawing incredible. The world works in equilibriums.

I'm glad you cut karakas in the moon build. They're pretty terrible when you've got a better way to deal with others. Also without white decks around they're very unnecessary. Glad you want some chaos warps. They play realllly nice with moons being able to hit basic lands. An interaction I didn't even consider until getting to do it in the tournament for a win. Woofall can be good for this to if you know they have a limited number.

I think going back up to 3 pyromancy is the right call. the 4 CC is great to eat a counter and it plays well against discard effects.

Questions:
!. How did crome mox work out for you and what are some of your reasons for playing it? I never thought there would be enough red cards to use it, especially without inferno titans. I've thought about mox diamond more.
2. What happened in round 1 game 3. Once your second sneak attack resolved you have priority before he can grip. You can put as many activations on the stack as you want before he can grip it. Unless removing a sandstone counter isn't considered a mana ability and can be responded to. I always thought it was, am I wrong?

Darkenslight
01-13-2013, 06:30 PM
!. How did crome mox work out for you and what are some of your reasons for playing it? I never thought there would be enough red cards to use it, especially without inferno titans. I've thought about mox diamond more.
2. What happened in round 1 game 3. Once your second sneak attack resolved you have priority before he can grip. You can put as many activations on the stack as you want before he can grip it. Unless removing a sandstone counter isn't considered a mana ability and can be responded to. I always thought it was, am I wrong?

The answer to (2) is that no, you're not wrong. It's part of the reason why Chromatic Sphere is so weird: it's a mana ability that draws a card.

crovax86
01-14-2013, 03:24 PM
@hdeck12:

For what concerns Chrome Mox..useless to say that it would be the perfect card for this deck..it would give us the mana stability that we can't have with petals..but as you say there's not enough red pitches for a set, neither for 3 of them. I would try to play 2 of them, but the impression I had playing this deck is that 1 is the right, bearable, "lucky" call for now. Mox Diamond imho it's even more risky, we've only 18-19 lands and we usually don't see much of them..I think it would be most of the time a dead card.

For the Krosan Grip U're right, I had Sandstone for activation and I wasn't sure if I'd pass him priority removing counters... to avoid any misunderstanding, I've activated sneak responding his fetch..


P.S. How's annoying for this deck the new white enchantment "Blind Obedience" from Gatecrash? :mad:

Koby
01-14-2013, 03:49 PM
@hdeck12:
P.S. How's annoying for this deck the new white enchantment "Blind Obedience" from Gatecrash? :mad:

You can still play around it by activating Sneak at you're opponent's EOT, then untap with them to attack. It loses some surprise, but achieves effectively the same thing.

hessenbob
01-17-2013, 04:40 PM
Played round robin yesterday, went 3-2, with a loss to Sneak and Show and Affinity. I like the Blood Moon main deck, as it shut down a few games quickly.

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Inferno Titan
4 Worldspine Wurm
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Griselbrand

4 Seething Song
4 Through the Breach
3 Faithless Looting
3 Pyromancy

4 Sneak Attack

1 Lotus Petal
1 Grim Monolith
3 Blood Moon
8 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Sandstone Needle

hdeck12
01-20-2013, 12:28 AM
Today was a tournament at Jupiter Games' tournament center in Vestal, NY. 84 people if I remember right, I finished top 16 after making a few misplays, some pure stupid play (sorry, opponents, I normally play crisp), getting a few bad hands, and almost everyone in the room knowing what I was on.

Deck List


7 mountain
3 sandstone needle
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors

4 simian spirit guide
1 chrome mox
1 lotus petal
4 seething song
1 desperate ritual

4 sneak attack
4through the breach
3 pyromancy

4 emrakul, the aeons torn
3 griselbrand
3 worldspine wurm

4 faithless looting
2 inferno titan
3 blood moon
2 magus of the moon

//SB
4 leyline of sanctity
4 leyline of the void
3 defense grid
2 volcanic fallout
1 inferno titan
1 blood moon



Round 1 Josh Stringer WUb Blade
Everytime I've seen Josh try his hand at legacy he's jamming merfolk. Thats a good deck right now....so I figured he was at least on FOW but probably not the fish.
I'm on the play and keep 7. It's an all in turn 1 blood moon off chrome mox (yeah new cards that immediately earn their keep) with a faithless looting. He thinks about his seven, looks at me, and decides not to keep knowing it kills me if I'm on combo but gets destroyed by anything else. He doesn't gamble on reading me and draws 6. Doesn't love them but doesn't want to try again. So Turn 1 I drop the blood moon and his heart hits the floor. We both then play expensive mountains for a few turns. He finds a plains and doesn't tap it. Finally he decides to play stoneforge. I make my first dummy play of the day. I have a chrome mox and 3 mountains, seething song, sneak attack, griselbrand, worldspine. I should seething song, drop the sneak attack and double activate for the win. I tap my four lands and put sneak attack on the board. Oops. Doesn't matter, next turn I activate it twice for the win.

Side board
In 3 defense grid, 2 volcanic fallout (I saw lingering souls at some point game 1)
Out 2 song 3 looting (not really sure if hes more discard or counters cause I didn't see any of either)
Game two. I mull to 6, and he snap keeps 6 so I put him on FOW. But I can beat 1. Turn 1 wurm runs into FOW. Turn two I topdeck Defense Grid...shoulda been patient. Turn 4 worm runs into FOW #2. Then a protection black/green stoneforge kept me from assembling enough cards in my hand to try again.
Game three. We both keep 6. Inquisition gets a crucial spirit guide. I run into FOW and then am quickly beaten down by the same stoneforge from game 2 + a snapcaster + 2 souls.

Drat, 1 big misplay, didn't cost me the game, but still 0-1

Round 2 Aaron Miller with MUD
I've played Aaron, and MUD a lot with this deck. It's a pretty good matchup for me. Feeling a little better.
Game one. I'm on the Draw and keep a strong 5. He keeps 6. He plays some mana stones, I play my sandstone, He plays a loadstone golem. Now I'm one mana short to go off. He plays another loadstone golem. I get a land, but not before the two robots chop down my life total.

Side board
In Inferno titan
Out Moon

Game 2. I keep 7 on the play, he goes to 6. He plays a lot of mana and looks to be ramping up to something. On his second turn I through the breach Grisel, draw 7 untap and get there.
Game3 we both keep 7. His first turn is a man stone. I drop a needle. He plays a spellskite. I play more land. He plays a batterskull, I turn 3 emrakul. Turn 4 inferno titan cleans up.

1-1 Not bad, but don't really wanna drop another one.

Round 3 Phillip with UBg Landstill (ugh...)
I saw him playing earlier and knew he was on a BUG variant. This one was brand new to me. Had to figure it out on the fly.
Game one. On the play I keep 6 to his 7. I run a pyromancy into a...spell pierce thats not the FOW I was expecting. Weird, no goyf or delver on the board but I'm getting spell pierced, not sure where this ones goin, lets have some fun. I loot. He casts Standstill...OK, now I know where this is headed. I get a sneak attack through and Team Emrakul/Grisel get there.

Side board
In 2 volcanic fallouts, 3 defense grid, 1 moon
Out 2 seething song 2 faithless 1 desperate ritual, 1 titan

Game 2. I keep 7. I play around Spell Pierce and my turn 2 blood moon gets Counterspelled. My turn three blood moon has BG floated and abrupt decayed after resolution. This is where I made a mistake. Well, in hindsight it was a mistake. He kept leaving three land up. So I expected clique +/- spell pierce. I could have gone off this turn through either of those but not both and not multiple spell pierces. I opt to wait and draw a land to play around both options since theres literally NO pressure on the board. He then plays 2 mishras factories and beats me down while hardcasted mindbreak traps kept me from going off. (the only thing he had in hand back when he was leaving three up)
Game 3. Aburpt decay gets my defense grid, and wasteland keeps me from going off with the fear of spell pierce. He plays standstill. I try to go off, he draws three, counters, plays standstill. I try to go off again, he draws three, counters, plays standstill. Really, three in a row, I'm out of gas. Jace goes Ultimate...fun.

1-2, oh man, do I go home now or keep playing on the side chance I sneak in to top 8...

Round 4 David With Bant/Junk
I've seen david around and he's usually on Bant so thats what I put him on.
Game 1. We both keep 7. I'm on the play and drop a turn 1 moon. He proceeds to play really expensive mountains until I do big things.

Side board
In Moon (still not sure what his plan is, I saw a lotta colors and not a lotta cards)
Out Seething song

Game 2. I keep 7, he keeps 6. On turn two I play blood moon. His brainstorm off tundra finds no counter, and his misty grabs a forest. I quickly wrap the game up. Sorry David, not much fun had in this match, my fault.

2-2, OK, I'll stick it out

Round 5 Rob with 4 color Deathrite
Game 1 I'm on the draw. His deathrite eats a faithless looting that I forget about in the graveyard for a turn. Shoot, dummy play number 2. Counterspell and then snapcaster counterspell is enough to dimish my resources while snapcaster and souls chip my life down.

Side board
See round 3. In game 3 on the draw the leyline of sanctities come in for moons since he knows to play around it.

Game 2. We both keep 7 and I'm on the play. I have a fragile no land turn 1 moon. I assume he's not playing FOW due to the mix of colors. So I go chrome mox, SSG, lotus petal, Moon.... Mindbreak Trap. WHAT, ARE YOU EFFING KIDDING ME. WHEN IS THAT SPELL GOOD AGAINST THIS DECK. 1/100. Sorry for the quick rant, this just really shocked me because it was actually awesome for him. So I rip an ancient tomb like a boss and lay defense grid after he tapped out for top. Then turn three I got the magus out with defense grid protection and he scooped.
Game 3. We both play lands and trade spells. At some point Jace is at 5 fate sealing me with two lingering souls. I have a defense grid in play and he's tapped out. I have 2 sandstones with 1 counter and an ancient tomb with through the breach, inferno titan and some irrelevant stuff in hand. I'm supposed to through the breach the titan so I can kill jace. I tap 6, put my two sandstones in the graveyard and somewhere my brain shortcuts and puts titan into play instead of through the breach. UGH, Dummy play number, what are we up to 3 now? If he Jace bounces on his turn then my solo ancient tomb isn't looking so great against the whole team. His turn...flashback lingering souls...fateseal you? YES, YES, YES, Thank you rob for paying as much attention to the game state as I. So the next turn Inferno manages to kill jace and all the few souls still lingering. I think the titan just might get there and then liliana hits the board and sends him packing. I draw some red and play out a pyromancy. I have through the breach and second pyromancy in my hand and hes at 16. I decide to wait since he's not pressuring me, other than me tapping ancient tomb, (thinkning I can always respond to him destroying pyromancy if I have to) to try and draw some big creatures, lands or a faithless. I have sandstone, Ancient tomb x2, City so I don't have unlimited activations. I rip 2 defense grids and a leyline of sanctity. I decide not to kill lilly because she's going to let me discard the cheap spells. So I draw and discard every turn, until she's at 6, by then I've drawn enough to alpha discard strike.

3-2 Ok, we're confident again

Round 6 Sam Higgins with BG Nic Fit
Game one I'm on the play. I have Needle, Tomb as my lands. I decide to play out pyromancy since hes not really pressuring me and if he has enchantment removal I'd rather have it hit that than sneak attack. He doesn't kill it. I draw more land and sneak attack grisel/worldspine.

Side board
In Moon, 4 leyline sanctity
Out 2 moon 2 faithless 1 song

Game 2. His ooze eats a faithless looting that I AGAIN forgot about in my graveyard. I worked really hard today NOT to discard emrakul shuffles to my lootings JUST so I could flash them back, and then I forgot about them. I get to 4 land and cast sneak attack thinking his enchantment removal is abrupt decay and I am safe to kill him the next turn. Nope...Golgari Charm keeps me from doing that. His ooze and some other Nic Fitty creatures beat me down.
Game3. On the play I have the option of turn 1 moon or pyromancy. I know turn zero moons are sweet to stop fetches but I've been punished by two color decks for that before. I lead with the pyro. At the end of the game I learn the moon would have been just as good that game. I throw emrakul at him and then cast inferno titan after he'd fetched twice. I like getting two free lands from veteran explorer.

4-2 Win one more, maybe top 8, probably top 16

Round 7 Nick Patnode with Goblins.

Game 1. I mul to 4 on the play to get a decent keep. His port and wasteland keep me one mana short of doing RIDICULOUS things.

Side board
In Moon, titan, 2 fallout (on the draw in game three 4 leylines came in for 2 magus and two moon)
Out 2 faithless, 2 pyromancy

Game 2. We both blow this game. Turn two I cast desperate ritual thinking it's seething song and show him my through the breach. Wait, thats only 4 mana...oops. In knowing this is a horrible matchup for Nick I don't make him be a jerk calling a judge on me and just accept the fact I made yet ANOTHER stupid play. Down one sandstone counter and 1 desperate ritual. By the time I get to 5 mana after his waste and port he has a powerful 6 permanent team. He gains nothing by porting me on my "last" upkeep, he should have cast a matron to cross the 6 permanent threshold but instead ports me and I instant speed trough the breach for emrakul. Untap and inferno.
Game 3. I keep a 1 lander with SSG, SSG volcanic, knowing this buys me 6-7 turns alone. Instead I rip straight sol land sneak attack, Grisel and manage to through the breach a griselbrand to block 1 of 3 lackeys crashing in, draw 14 and untap...you know how that ends.

5-2 Top 16...feels much better after not doing so well the weekend before. And I am now the proud owner of a SP Plateau

Final thoughts on the day. 2 city of traitors, there was a one time when I had three in my hand....useless. They're better with the moon build, but still, I don't want 3, ever. Will go up to 8 mountains. Was looking for a mountain just a little too often.

I HAVE to remember faithless lootings in my graveyard. Both not discarding eldrazi on the first cast, and then actually flashing it back.

Maindeck moon is ok. It's powerful, but turn zero moons aren't much fun for me. I'll probably go back to the defense grid or chalice build. The look on my opponents face when turn three emrakul hits is fun, the look on their face when turn 1 blood moon sticks is not fun. It makes choosing whether or not to keep opening hands much harder for me. Taking one more card to land turn one moon than a turn one defense grid was anooying. I was running out of resources because the moon wouldn't stick and I kept an all in hand or it would and all my sol lands were now mountains. This usually gave my opponent too many turns to draw out of it. Granted few of them did today, its happened often in the past.

Not a bad day, got some tunes to do. The voids were useless today. But without karakas I'm not sure if I wanna completely give up the reanimator match no matter how low the numbers. Hope all your playing is going well!

-HDeck

igri_is_a_bk
01-22-2013, 10:08 AM
After months of playing this here and there online, I've finally decided to buy it IRL. Here's what I'm building. It's going heavy win conditions and disruption, light acceleration.

4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [MM] Sandstone Needle
9 [AN] Mountain
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [MR] Chrome Mox

4 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [RTR] Worldspine Wurm
2 [AVR] Griselbrand
1 [MBS] Blightsteel Colossus

4 [US] Sneak Attack
4 [CHK] Through the Breach
3 [UL] Pyromancy

4 [M11] Inferno Titan
4 [DK] Blood Moon
3 [MR] Chalice of the Void

SB: 1 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 3 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 3 [CMD] Chaos Warp
SB: 3 [M10] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

There are a couple of big differences in there. First, I'm dropping Seething Song completely, and going with Chrome Mox and SSG for accel. I've wanted a lower curve for a while, and Song, while very explosive, is a risky luxury: one that puts your mana at risk to counterspells.

Second, I'm not playing Faithless Looting. I think the card is bad in this deck. It is a mana sink, and encourages you to keep poor hands as you put a crutch on the Looting sitting there. We can assume if you're casting Looting, it is because you either don't have a fatty or kill card. In those instances that you're digging, you could just be casting spells that have the potential to win you the game (Moon, Chalice, Titan), or disrupt your opponent enough that they have an obligation to answer it. Any of those will buy you the same time Looting does, while putting your opponent on their heels. And the real kicker for me is that you can't play Chalice if you play Looting.

Sideboard has three slots for combo, three for counter-heavy decks, three answers to randomness, three answers to hate bears, and three answers to degenerate strategies. Pretty straightforward.

igri_is_a_bk
01-22-2013, 11:52 AM
I was browsing through the red creatures and saw Cragganwick Cremator. Has anybody tried this? If you hit a creature, it is like Pyro only it costs 3 less and sticks around as a 5/4. Maybe it's a 1-of?

hdeck12
01-23-2013, 09:29 PM
@igri: The cremator has not been tried by me. He might be ok, but I definitely wouldn't play more than 1 of. I think of him as a finisher after a through the breach. Seems too circumstantial/narrow though. With toughness 4 he won't end many games on his own. Might give your opponents something to blow their STP on before wurm or titan hit? With chalices though thats not as big of a concern. I was playing a one of Riddle of Lightning for a while. I liked it because either it worked as a finisher or if I wasn't there yet, it was a useful tool for set up.

@the world: How do you guys feel about a one of Incendiary Command?

igri_is_a_bk
01-24-2013, 11:14 AM
@Cremator
I thought he'd be a ninth finisher (in my list) with a more reasonable cc rather than a clean up card. I mean, maybe there is a different list that could build around Sneak, Through, and Cremator with Looting, Chrome Mox, and other cards that reduce your number in-hand down to only creatures. Could be worse. Just thinking out loud.

@Command
It's versatile, that's for sure. Let's take a closer look. The first ability is a nice "sting" card if they didn't scoop to your first attack, but the odds we win that game are high anyways. The second ability is nice. Pyroclasm is a good card, and is useful for us in against hate bears or to slow down their clock. Unfortunately, Command sucks at killing Teeg and Thalia, the two bears that hurt us the most. The third ability is severely outclassed by Blood Moon. The last ability is good as well, and it looks like the best reason to play it. But if that's the case, is it better than Reforge the Soul?

crovax86
01-24-2013, 12:36 PM
Hi guys!! First of all, Congrats to HDeck, always great reports and good results!! For what concerns Command I totally quote igri_is_a_bk.

@ igri_is_a_bk: If you want to play moxes, I think you should keep the songs. In your 4 Inferno Titan list particullary, 4 songs are just great, plus as red cards, U can pitch them in your moxes...For what concerns Faithless Looting I just say that's a great card, our only "manipulation"; trust me that if I see a bad hand with looting I just don't keep it because of looting. It's a risky card to use wisely, but it'also a great card that turns dead draws in useful cards, the flashback option is just insane for this deck...
I only suggest you to think twice before cutting them, my opinion is that without them the deck get worse...


Last weekend I went to a tournament (60 people), finished 4-2 (12th, there was just one place in top for a 4-2 but I had a low rating).

Same list of the tournament that I won a few weeks ago except for the side: -3 koth - 3 Pyroclasm +1 Woodfall Primus +2 Stronghold Gambit + 3 Chaos Warp.
I just wanted to try that Gambit trick guys..but I have to say that I side them only twice and I didn't see them..so I don't know what to say about it..I just tell you that I've missed the Pyroclasm very much at the match point for the top 8 vs maverick.

Quick report:

Round 1 - Team America

G1 - This is always a though MU for the deck, he discards, counters and races with a flipped delver. This is the sad summary.

G2 - In 4 leylines and 3 Defense Grid..Out 1 Looting 1 Pyromancy 1 TTB 1 Griselbrand 1 Song 1 Magus 1 Sandstone Needle. I keep a hand with a turn 1 moon or grid, just a tomb and a mountain as land. I think: if he forces the grid, next turn I play the moon, if he doesn't I play the moon..Moon vs Bugs = win. So I play grid, he says ok, pass, he thinks a while, then..wasteland on tomb. Ouch. I pray to see another double land..instead mountain..:frown:..the match goes on, with me resolving a sneak attack creatureless and a moon (so he can't play nothing) and he that makes me a tourach discarding Emrakul and something else and plays 3 delvers in 3 turns with only one flipped..I'm 2 life and draw a Griselbrand (Emrakul was gg)..I think that if I attack and draw 7 I could easily lose the game cause only another Griselbrand could help me but I side out one of them, or I should draw Emrakul and Worldspine hoping delvers won't flips again..I had to risk but I wasn't brave enough..so I pass..delver didn't flips (!!!), he attacks, I sneak Griselbrand and block the flipped delver, goin' to 9, then back to 7..he passes, I draw land, go, pass, delvers flips, he attacks bringing me to 1, passes, topdeck. Simian Spirit Guide :tongue: not enough.

0-1 (Hate this matchup..)


Round 2 - Spanish Inquisition

Nothing to say 'bout this round, I'm faster than him both the matches and that's all. The first I made a turn 2 Worldspine, the second I TTB a turn 2 Primus destroying a Bayou and a Belcher. (Side: -3 Blood Moon -2 Magus -3 Pyromancy +4 Leyline +2Woodfall +2Stronghold Gambit).

1-1


Round 3 - Jund

G1 - He starts, Tseize discarding sneak attack, passes, Sandstone, pass, he land Tseize again discarding an Emrakul (I had also a Wurm), I shuffle, he passes, I draw a TTB, play another sandstone and pass, he plays a goyf, passes, I play mountain, double sandstones activation, TTB, wurm, he should survive blocking with tarmo but decides to pass to the next.

G2 - Side in 4 Leyline, Side out 1 Magus 1 Pyromancy 1 Song 1 Looting. I keep a pro hand with Leyline :wink: that vs Jund is basically gg. So it is, with a relaxing turn 4 emrakul-griselbrand sneak attack.

2-1 Still hope!


Round 4 - 12 Post Mono G

G1 - A turn 4 breached Emrakul destroys all his lands, then I slowly assemble a pyromancy for the 5 lasts damages.

G2 - Side in: +3 Chaos Warp -1 Mountain -1 Sneak Attack (I wisely expected Needles) -1 Looting. He starts land needle on sneak :eek:..but I have a strongest plan against him: blood moon. So, a few turns passes land go, land go..I don't see anything bout sneak attacks (2 in hand and no warps), then he resolves a Titan, I finally draw a Pyromancy but too late, cause he grips me the moon EoT and then resolves an Emrakul. Damn.

G3 - Side in: 2 Woodfall Primus, side out 1 Pyromancy and 1 City of Traitors. I want to play hard! I resolve a turn 2 magus, then he neddle me the sneak, but turn 4 I TTB Primus, destroying his basic forest and his needle..he'll lose with primus+magus attacks.

3-1 and now it'up to me!


Round 5 - Maverick

G1 - Theorically a good matchup. And my turn 3 sneak-emrakul for the win seems to confirm that. But..

G2 - I side in just 2 Chaos Warp, in case of Gaddock/Thalia; understimating the MU, I keep a turn 3 breach-worldspine hand, but he swords him (I thought since he hasn't seen the wurm game 1 he sided out the swords, bad playing this, I tell myself), then he plays zenith for gaddock and I don't see warps in time to finish him despite my 33 life.

G3- Side in the 3rd Warp and a primus. Keep wrong a slow hand with sneak-primus-Emrakul-warp-mountain-needle-petal. After a few turns I resolve the sneak without mana activation and he plays a qasali and break the sneak, then another two empty turns in which I play lands and he plays Jitte, I faithless looting seeing a TTB, I have enough mana to cast it so I have to discard a land and one beast, he has karakas in play so I sadly decide to discard Emrakul and TTB primus, I pass beacause've only 4 mana after looting, he zeniths gaddock, I warp it EoT then reveals..Thalia :mad: he passes, Land, there is a justice, TTB primus that destroys karakas and Jitte. Pass and he plays Mother of runes, passes, I attack him, he goes to 7..then in 6 turns I draw Nothing (Songs, Emrakul, Griselbrand without Pyro, Sneaks, or Breaches) and he draws everything (Mystic, Knights ecc.).

3-2 Very Sad, I've could play it really better and in the last game I had to mulligan...


Round 6 - UW Miracle

G1 - I have a bad rating so I know it's almost impossible to reach the top. Let's play it anyway. He counters a TTB, then resolves a Sneak attack-Emrakul, he switch Sensei's to Terminus but I have another Emrakul ready for him.

G2 - Side in: 4 Defense Grid, 2 Chaos Warp 2 Gambit Stronghold, side out: 5 moon effects, 1 TTB, 1 Looting, 1 Mountain. The plan is: first the sneaks effect, then the pyromancy (the real strong card vs this MU), so it goes, he counters me a sneak, He disenchant a grid, then I play Pyromancy, looting 2 discard cheap costs to tap 6 and made him 26 damages of Emrakul-Wurm costs.

4-2 A good score after all..


Final thoughts -

- The deck remains very strong and difficult to defeat. I think I'll back to Pyroclasms, the Stronghold trick is interesting but frankly unnecessary.
- I don't have to be afraid to mulligan, this deck can win with 5 cards :cool:
- I need to learn to play against Team America and BUG types..I noticed that everytime it's very though to play against it..moon effects if they don't comes down quickly are not efficients and delver guarantees a very fast race.


I'll end this post quoting Jaya Ballard: "Some have said there is no subtlety to destruction. You know what? They're dead." :tongue:

hdeck12
01-25-2013, 07:42 PM
Thanks for the heads up on command. I was thinking it'd be nice to have a maindeck answer to teeg now that karakas has fallen. Oh wait, teeg's in play, can't tap more than 3....great plan :rolleyes:

As for the seething songs. It's a call. I haven't tried it without yet. Maybe a slower more controlling version is even more powerful. You can let us know! When I first put the deck together I had a solid idea of what I wanted the manabase to be. After a year of casually flipping lands and numbers I really have no clue of what I want my EXACT base to be anymore. I will say that, against non-FOW decks, seething song is the card I want most in my opener. And even against FOW it's still just a 2 for 2. Powering out a titan before KOTR can trade with him is important. Getting him down to take out a stoneforge so batterskull can't hit the board will keep esper on the backfoot. I've thought about cutting to 3 since I don't really want 2 in my opener. They're not even bad in multiples though, plenty of times I've seething songed into seething song to cast mulitple spells, get ahead of spell pierce, or crank titan up to crash in like a truck. Also provides the line for a turn 3 pyromancy kill. Anyways, I agree with Crovax that a 4 titan build would benefit from some fiery music. I'm certainly curious to hear how it goes!

Glad to hear stronghold wasn't too interesting. People have been suggesting this to me for a long time, but there just seems to be better options for that function. I've been tossing the idea around of adding a couple sensei's divining tops. Maybe a 2/2 split with faithless. I agree that you never keep a hand based on having a faithless alone. Its no brainstorm. Turn 1 tomb, top, spin, is SO strong. Seeing 10 cards is better than seeing 9 cards and being down 1. If the tops came in I'm not sure if a few fetchlands would come in or not. They don't lose much to moon, but open the deck to stifle and aven mindcensor and inadvertently add deathrite fodder to the yard . Any thoughts?

whienot
01-25-2013, 11:41 PM
I've been tossing the idea around of adding a couple Sensei's Divining Tops. Maybe a 2/2 split with faithless. I agree that you never keep a hand based on having a faithless alone. Its no brainstorm. Turn 1 tomb, top, spin, is SO strong. Seeing 10 cards is better than seeing 9 cards and being down 1. If the tops came in I'm not sure if a few fetchlands would come in or not. They don't lose much to moon, but open the deck to stifle and aven mindcensor and inadvertently add deathrite fodder to the yard . Any thoughts?

I've been playing with the deck and always find Faithless Looting lacking. Aside from Inferno Titan, we're dealing in 2 card combinations that don't interact with the graveyard. Not that card advantage is important while playing combo, but Looting can be too disadvantageous at times.

4 Tops with 5 fetches have been working much better for me. Divining Top helps recover from a barrage of discard, or even find the correct combo piece(s) to try to go off again after a counterspell. There's Emrakul/Worldspine shuffle tricks, also. Most importantly, combined with your draw step, SDT can get you the enabler + fatty in a single turn, even from an empty hand.

hdeck12
01-29-2013, 08:10 PM
@whienot: Great advice!

@theworld: So there's a star city event coming up in my area soon. I'm hoping for some advice on card choices or alternate SB plans. Testing starts this week. Here's the list I've got right now, a few explanations below:

2 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
3 sandstone needle
2 scalding tarn
1 wooded foothills
2 arid mesa
4 mountain
4 seething song
4 simian spirit guide

4 through the breach
4 sneak attack
3 pyromancy

3 griselbrand
3 worldspine wurm
4 emrakul, the aeons torn
2 inferno titan

4 sensei's divining top
2 chalice of the void
3 defense grid

1 lotus petal
1 chrome mox
1 desperate ritual


//SB
4 blood moon
1 inferno titan
4 leyline of the void
4 leyline of sanctity
2 volcanic fallout


There are a few cards I'm thinking about replacing
1 Pyromancy. Positives: They're really good in the grind. Great against discard. 1 more threat that's a must counter. Negatives: Slow. Slow, slow, slow! Yes, can be fast, but is usually slow. Without being answered, they're dead in multiples. At an SCG I'm thinking I'll need to face more combo than in my local meta. Thoughts?
1 Griselbrand. Lets be honest, this cards wins if it hits the board turn 1 or 2. However, he to is dead in multiples in our deck. He is a completely different tool than in sneak show, reanimator, or even dredge. We're not planning on dropping this guy into play and having him stick around to draw 7 every turn while he attacks or blocks. He's strictly a 'pay 7, draw 7,' did we get there? no, ok 'pay 7, draw 7,' again, either we win on the spot or we lose. The never wanting more than 1 is whats sticking out in my brain about this one.. Thoughts?


1 chrome mox
1 desperate ritual
1 lotus petal

Without the moons it's much less crucial to hit 3 mana on turn 1. Also with the defense grids back to the main I don't know if I need the desperate ritual as another must counter through the breach. 8 mana, the ritual and a breach means two breaches. Usually overkill. If the ritual gets countered though, it's all of a sudden 11 mana for double through the breach. Not so cool. Useful as a ritual, and at drawing out a counter in the right circumstance, but it seems too 'cute'. I want to make room for a third chalice and a third titan. He gets a lot better when swords to plowshares can be turned off completely.

SB: This is just a starting point. All suggestions welcome. I'm thinking about cutting the leyline of the voids. Reanimator seems to be nearly dead at the moment, and I think we can handle dredge without them. Are they still a necessary evil? Maybe bringing in some REBs, Chaos Warps and/or magus of the moons. Thoughts?

-HDeck

crovax86
01-30-2013, 09:30 AM
I like this build..it seems very "safe" with Tops and Fetches..I know they're slow but I won't replace pyromancies..maybe you can take off 1 of them goin' to 2..in some MU (miracles, control deck) they're just too good.

Chapter Griselbrand...I don't know if there's something better, but a good card can be Rune-Scarred Demon..there are some situation for ex. when you have sneak on the board, griselbrand on hand, you can't pay 7, you need a match-ball (like emrakul and worldspine)..so..Rune-Scarred could be the solution..sometimes you can also pay 7 but you don't find the solution, with Rune-Scarred you are sure to find it. I don't know..it's just an idea..

1x mana slots: If I'd replace them..I'd give the deck more stability..+1 red fetch +1 Mountain +1 "2 mana land"..21 lands with senseis' - fetches manipulation..it seems a control-combo :laugh: but maybe...and talkin 'bout sensei..maybe in this build Reforge the Soul could make some sense...

SB: IMHO -4 Leyline of the Void +3 Chaos Warp +1 Pyroclasm/Fallout

hdeck12
01-30-2013, 08:32 PM
Thanks for the input crovax! I was thinking about cutting a pyromancy. But maindecking the defense grids mean I don't want to lose to blue game 1. They'll help.

I like the idea of a woodfall primus or two. I was thinking about what he'd be good against other than storm, and it hit me...omniscience/Dreamhalls/Hivemind. These are all pretty popular heavy blue combo decks that can be piloted with or without accuracy. Omniscience being the choice of late. I imagine Enter The Infinite could make an appearance with Omni or HighTide. Anyway, all still backing my original thought of seeing more combo than I'm used to. Will shuffle them around the board in testing.

Lands
-1 desperate ritual +1 Sandstone Needle
-1 lotus petal +1 mountain? OR red fetch?
-1 chrome mox +1 chalice of the void

I like the idea of coming back to Reforge the Soul. Wheel of fortune was my favorite card as a 10 year old. Which is NOT a good enough reason to play any card BUT reforge really fits in this deck. If anyone out there disagrees, please speak up with some evidence or situations, I'm trying to win more than appease the kid in me at this tournament. It wasn't good enough with the faithless lootings, but switching to top gives it a lot of utility.
-1 Griselbrand +1 Reforge the soul

I really want one more titan. It's hard to cut a chalice when they make each other better, but the only cards I can really think of cutting or moving to the board are....1 chalice, 1 through the breach, 1 grid or 1 top. The top is what I'm looking at. I've actually never played a deck that ran more than 1 top before. Is 4 too many? I did just add reforge BECAUSE of the top interaction. Is it good enough that I want one every time? My gut says yes, but my math brain says I'll see them too often. Anyone with top experience out there?

teonsw
01-30-2013, 09:31 PM
Thanks for the input crovax! I was thinking about cutting a pyromancy. Then I read the gatecrash spoiler. Rapid Hybridization is going to warp legacy. I'm not sure exactly how yet but it will be played. Pyromancy rocks against blue so I think they're going to stay.



That card already exists.... isn't it just a reprint of pongify.

hdeck12
01-30-2013, 09:47 PM
That card already exists.... isn't it just a reprint of pongify.

You're so right, clearly I'm no blue mage. Why don't people play that?

nonja
01-31-2013, 04:25 AM
You're so right, clearly I'm no blue mage. Why don't people play that?

Because it's better to splash white and play STP? Pongify leaves 3/3 token, who can bash pretty hard.

hdeck12
02-03-2013, 10:55 AM
Tournament Report

Today was Jupiter Game's (http://jupitergames.info/store/) monthly NELC. I had a great day. It was a 7 round, cut to top 8, 74 man event. I finished first. BOO YA! I'll post the deck list, a briefer report than usual, as I tried to take less notes today and concentrate more on playing, finished up with some reflections. This deck is the real deal...get used to it.


4 sandstone needle
4 ancient tomb
4 scalding tarn
1 wooded foothills
2 city of traitors
4 mountain

4 seething song
4 simian spirit guide
1 lotus petal

3 worldspine wurm
2 griselbrand
4 emrakul, the aeons torn
2 inferno titan

4 sneak attack
3 through the breach
3 pyromancy

3 sensei's divining top
1 reforge the soul
4 defense grid
3 blood moon

//SB

4 leyline of sanctity
1 through the breach
2 volcanic fallout
2 chaos warp
1 blood moon
2 woodfall primus
3 chalice of the void



Round 1 Dean with Burn

Game 1 I keep 6 on the draw in the dark with double top, double tomb, fetch, wurm. Goblin guide smacks me for 2. I open with tomb top trying to get some value off goblin guide...no such luck. I spend my remaining turns digging for business and hit nothing but reforge the soul. I manage to miracle it on my last turn, whiff and lose to all the bolts he drew.

SB In Leylines, Through the breach, Chalice
Out defense grids, Moons, a pyromancy

Game 2 I keep 6 to his 7. Once again all I see are ancient tombs. That plus his burn puts me to 5. I'm at the point where he's tapped out with one in hand. If I fetch for a mountain I can crash in with emrakul but will be in fireblast range. I go for it. He doesn't have fireblast but topdecks a land and a bolt hits my face.

0-1, Gunna be a short day

Round 2 Cory with Elves

Game 1 I keep 6 to his 7. He flipped a gaea's cradle while shuffling so once again I felt good. I cast sneak attack turn 2 without mana to activate it knowing I can follow it the next turn with through the breach if he uses all his resources to kill it rather then elfplode on my face. He decides To try and combo without perfect circumstances. Ends with Ezuri and enough elves and mana to deal LOTS of damage the following turn. I untap my sandstone needle and end the game.

In 3 chalice, 3 fallout
Out 4 defense grid, 2 pyromancy

Game 2 I mull to five with an opening chalice x=1. I keep, drop it in play and take chip damage from a his turn 1 llanowar, and two priests he was allowed to play for a few turns. With a gaea's cradle he had enough land to GSZ for regal force. That gave him enough cards to find an answer to chalice. He then deals with the chalice the turn before I can do anything constructive, and begins to combo off. He has two glimpse of natures going and draws his deck down to 5 cards. Casts Emrakul and forgets to announce the extra turn trigger. He continues to play useless elves. Then he tries to untap for his second turn and I stop him. I'm holding reforge the soul in hand and all I have to do is untap and cast it for the win. Too bad I'm a nice guy. I explain to him that these days you have to announce every trigger and someone else will definitely stick it to him with that. Then pick my cards up.

Game 3
I keep a hand with good stuff and a volcanic fallout. My turn 2 emrakul slows his game down. I respond to his third fetch with volcanic fallout for the win.

1-1 Good, at least you didn't lose ALL of your good matchups

Round 3 John with Junk

I don't remember this well, I must have been in a Chinese food stupor after the lunch break. Game 1 I keep 6 to his 7 on the play. He taps out on turn 2 for an Ooze and I turn 3 Worldpsine. The tokens quickly clean up.

Only saw GW lands so smell GSZ into Teeg. In Fallouts, Warps, Breach
Out Grids 1 pyromancy

Game 2 I think He landed a Teeg, then I landed a Moon, and cast a spirit guide to keep teeg from killing me. We both sit there and top deck for what felt like 10 turns. At some point I find a top, manage to find a titan and then a worldspine quickly follows.

2-1 Sure, we'll take it

Round 4 Ross with Dredge
Game 1 I keep a double pyromancy hand and he is way to fast for it. This was the first time anyone ever actually used griselbrand's ability to dredge a whole deck against me. Flayer and a large troll finished me off.

In DANG IT, I cut the hate and run into dredge. Moon(not seeing any mana game 1 but expceting dryad arbors) Breach, 2 fallout 2 chaos warps
Out Defense Grid 2 pyromancy

Game 2 Emrakul does some early work and a pyromancy finishes the job.

Game 3 My only notes on this are life totals. Mine goes from 20 to 16 and his doesn't change. Probably turn 2 double ancient tomb into through the breach a worldspine?

3-1 Ok, top 16 is in sight

Round 5 Devin with Scapeshift Nic Fit
Game 1 Devin was a little loose with his shuffling and flashed me enough cards to know what he was on. I keep a strong 7 even against discard. He has none and my turn 3 worldspine wraps up the game.

In Moon, Breach, 2 chaos warps
Out 4 Grids

Game 2 Bad notes again, I think he mulled to 5 or so and had 1 thoughseize as disruption. I think a turn 3 emrakul followed by a pyromancy finished the game.

4-1 Sweet, win one more and I can draw into top 8, my tiebreakers are average

Round 6 Joe with Mono Red Painters Stone
Game 1 We both know what the other are on and I'm pretty sure I can't lose. Not like, it's a good matchup, but like his cards can't actually win the game against mine. Ya know, unless I let a painter servant attack me 20 times. So he plays an early moon which does little to, or for, either of us. I don't do much until I can alpha swing and I think around turn 5 he goes for grindstone, I pick up my deck and hand it to him saying, you wanna look through it? cause there are 6 shuffle triggers about to hit the stack. He looks through it and offers to shuffle like a gentlemen (even though he knows he can't win game 1 and has a sad panda face) since we're having a fun mountain mirror. I untap and sneak titan plus emrakul for the win.

In 2 chaos warps, 1 breach, 3 chalice, 1 woodfall?
Out 4 grid 3 moon (In retrospect the grids would have been useful as I fought through 3-4 REB/Pyroblasts the following game)

Game 2 This was a crazy game. I don't have a lot of notes so it's from memory. He misses a land drop and pops his top to play a land. I decide to chaos warp his land (to shuffle away his top, and put him on 1 land for a few turns) Not the best use of chaos warp. Shoulda saved it. These games tend to get weird and long and I was being too aggressive. He doesn't miss enough land drops to make it useful. He lands two thorn of amethysts and a metal worker. I manage to go off with worldspine putting myself to 1. He crashed in for 15 and made 3 5/5s. Then Joe untaps and topdecks ensnaring bridge. We both have tops and dig as hard as we can for a win condition. Mine being Chaos warp, reforge the soul, 3 x pyromancy, his being...? Theres now about 5 minutes left in the round. I hit pyromancy first. Somehow I am low on mana with ancient tombs and being at 1 (he's at 3). I cast pyromancy, he top decks laboratory maniac and I pop my top (to get one more casting cost >3 card in my hand) and have a 6/7 chance of killing him with the pyromancy activation. It hits, I'm king of the mountains.


Round 7 Joey Manner with Miracle Helm Combo
I get the pair down and don't get to draw in...:-( Joey and I have played against each other a lot, he's a nice guy and we always have fun games. We talk about standings and he scoops me into top 8...at top seed! What a great guy!. He thinks it's a horrible matchup for him, I think it's more like 60/40 but in no way a "throw away game up in rochester". We play for fun, I smash him game 1, he counters me out of threats game 2, we both play really loose game three and I have no idea who would've won had we both been concentrating.

Top 8 1st seed...couldn't be much better right now.

Quarterfinals I stopped taking notes at this point so I don't have much on these matches, but they were all feature.
Hypergensis (RUG) On Camera
I keep a hand with more fatties than he can answer, knowing he can't put his in without letting me put mine in. It works out.

IN 3 chalice 2 chaos warp
Out 3 Moon, 2 pyromancy

Game 2
Pretty sure he kept at 5 cards not too happy. I think I have a turn 1 through the breach, he forces and a turn 2 or 3 sneak attack for emrakul while he was missing land drops.

Semi Finals
Louis with Junk On Camera
Game 1 I take some chip damage until emrakul and titan clean house.

In moon, breach, 2 fallout, 2 warp
out 4 grid 2 song

Game 2 Every turn he seemed to just be able to keep me from going off via wasteland or discard. I lose

Game 3
I hit a really early sneak attack, and have the choice of emrakul wipe your board, wurm follow up next turn or worldspine now kill you next turn. even if you answer sneak attack. I went with the emrakul, wrong play. It left him more outs. He had a decent handsize and had he been holding land he could draw into discard, stp, or pithing needle. Had I gone with the wurm his out was land into triple swords to plowshares. I hit with the emrakul and showed him the wurm and he extended his hand without drawing that last card, not sure if he even looked at it or not. I already gave one guy a free win today, couldn't take any chances in top 8 as I shuffled my cards together before he realizes there were outs.

Finals
Janene with Maverick on camera
Game 1 I do what we do against maverick. The life total says 20, 19, 0.

In breach, 2 warp, 3 chalice 2 fallout
Out 4 grid, 2 pyromancy, 1 Reforge 1 moon

Game 2 Teeg lands the turn before I can through the breach emrakul and then a jitte is equipped and charged the turn before I can inferno the little kithkin. Chaos warp is my only out, I don't find it before the equipment carrying 2/2 beats me down.

Game 3 I'm so tired and so frustrated I might lose to maverick in the finals. I don't remember the details but I had to deal with TWO gaddock Teeg's. I do and on the last turn I manage to sneak attack Worlspine, Emrakul AND Griselbrand, I could have drawn 7 to try and hit a titan to swing with
"The Team" but I didn't wanna take any chances. Game, Set, MATCH.

Seconds after my opponent and I shook hands my phone started buzzing off the hook from all the guys on my team who were watching my success at home. Shout out to Larry&theDoolittles from Ithaca, NY for helping me hatch this egg into a viscous beast, and Timur Babakol for finding me a shell to start with.

I am now the proud owner of 4 Underground Seas and a really big ego!

Reflections:
Top totally changes the way this deck is played. I liked it. Stays in. With three I was seeing
them in multiples. I think 4 would be too many.

Blood Moon/Dryad Arbor: Today I learned that Under a blood moon, a Dryad Arbor is a 1/1 Mountain that is still affected by summoning sickness.

Woodfall: Out, threw him in the last minute because I spotted some omniscience...didn't run into any. Gotta find something better.

I packed 4 defense grids main deck and didn't see islands until round 7. I know everyone thinks its a sideboard card, but for now I like a few main if I can still beat non blue decks. And they're the nuts against counterspells, which has been most of my losses.

Chaos Warp: This card deserves 2 slots minimum. It has way more applications than I expected. I'm still finding new ones.

Worldspine Finishes games against non white decks PERIOD. Half of him being so sweet is he leaves behind 3 huge blockers to keep you from taking that back swing. Emrakul is good early to hit lands, this guy is fantastic late to throw up blockers.

Grislbrand. I didn't activate him once today, he swung a few times alongside emrakul. I think 2 or 3 is good, but he's no 4 of, and good enough not to be a 1 of. Still not sure if 2 or three is right.

Reforgre: Cast it against burn in an emergency and it got me nowhere. I used it one other time and it didn't get there. It's a back up plan, but I'm not sure if it's the best one, casting it was way fun, but if I was winning it was over kill, and if I'm losiing the % still isnt' high it'll get me out. Maybe good to dig for an answer to a hate bear. I mean had I been a jerk, it actually would have won me a game today. Not sure, deserves some more matchups.

I'm overboarding against Junk. Help. I wanna bring in leyline for discard, fallout for teeg, moon for waste, chalce for swords, warp for liliana, and even woodfall for karakas. Any suggestions?

Leyline of Sanctity. I'm getting sick of not seeing a leyline, starting the game with 5 cards, then top decking one. It happens to me too much. They're so good agaisnt discard, but with the tops the deck might be able to handle discard better. I think those four slots desserve some more thoughts. They are really good for storm, but still have the same problem. Drawing them sucks.

Objective Complete.
-Hdeck

xdavisx
02-03-2013, 08:09 PM
congrats!

igri_is_a_bk
02-04-2013, 12:20 AM
Nice job hdeck!

Top was a great addition. I wish it didn't mean the Chalices had to be relegated to the sideboard, but that's how it goes.

I still don't like the Grids in there. You sided them out almost every game two, and counterspells aren't the most of our worries. I don't want to sit across from faster combo and that's about it. We can play enough win conditions to exhaust the counters from their hand. Then Grid can come in game two, and that's fine. We get three games even if you do get countered into oblivion game one. But I just don't see that happening often enough to warrant Grid.

I was so wrong to try the deck without Seething Song. So nobody else has to worry about testing that one.

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [MM] Sandstone Needle
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
5 [UNH] Mountain

// Creatures
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 [AVR] Griselbrand
3 [M12] Inferno Titan
4 [RTR] Worldspine Wurm

// Spells
4 [US] Sneak Attack
4 [CHK] Through the Breach
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MR] Seething Song
1 [AVR] Reforge the Soul
3 [DK] Blood Moon
3 [SOM] Koth of the Hammer

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [CMD] Chaos Warp
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap

Here's what I'm playing now. I'm sick of Pyromancy. It's too slow, and doesn't win in one shot most of the time. It also makes my future Sneak and TtBs worse by pitching all my fatties. I'm done with it. Koth is good by himself, unlike Pyro, and is strong against blue just like we need in that slot. I've won on the back of Koth + Titan beat down enough times that I want to keep it there. I've been impressed how he functions as mana and an aggressor. Blood Moon is vital for this version as it shuts off their Wasteland for Koth's +1, while also stacking his -2. You have to play Moon with Koth. I'm pretty sure of that.

Reforge the Soul seems fine to me. I've used it before and it worked. I've also had it when I didn't need it, but I wasn't upset it was there for plan B.

crovax86
02-04-2013, 12:57 PM
Congrats Hdeck!!! So happy for Ur result!! Maybe the "Reforge the Soul" idea hasn't been a great suggestion :rolleyes: U can replace it with the 4th TTB instead..and add the 3rd Warp in your side..

I'm waiting to test Your build against some Ubased (Team America, BUG, RUG, Esper Stoneblade, Miracle) but it seems very cool!!

Question: How's different the style of play of this Top version compared with the Looting version? Have you ever think in some game situations "I miss them" or not at all?



@ igri_is_a_bk: Ok, You don'like Pyromacies and there's nothing we can do to change your mind :smile: but adding Koths in a 5 mountains - 3 moons effects it could be not so effective..otherwise adding more moons effect in a "fetch-sensei" build is not a good move. IMHO if U don't want to play pyromancies -3 Koth +1 Titan +1Chrome mox/Lotus Petal +1 Wurmcoil (a very good "castable" creature in this deck).

hdeck12
02-04-2013, 10:42 PM
I never missed the Faithless Lootings at all. All day long I was turn 1 casting top and spinning it for 2 damage. It made the combo much more reliable. I did have to make the decision of turn 1 top or sandstone quite a bit. Not a big deal, but one new line.

It changes mulligans. I was able to keep many more hands. I only went to 5 once all day, and never below. And I have no fear mulliganing, I'll go right down to 3 if I'm not satisfied. It also just gives more options. You don't have to commit to lines of play as early. Seeing your next three cards means you can set up your "best" line and then adjust depending on your opponents play. Before I felt like I was taking whatever line was possible, not the best since I couldn't see my next two draws.

The deck becomes less vulnerable to discard as well. you can leave the two combo pieces (or whichever one you want to hide) on the top of your library and just leave them there until you're ready to go off. Then if they thoughtseize emrakul or wurm, you just have to decide if you pop the top and win next turn, or just start spinning again after the shuffle.

Playing Fetches was fun too. Got to keep my opponents guessing whether or not I had counterspells.

Top is a winner.

As for reforge....still undecided.

So wait, you can wasteland Koth's mountain creature? That's...awkward. The only non wasteable land is now a target? And then Koth's ramp ability gets worse? I think a Koth build desserves more moon effects. At three I wasn't seeing them all the time. I've never played with him though so keep us updated! Glad the seething song train is boarding again. I mean, it's banned in modern, must be good! :cool:

Anyone wanting more castable threats....crovax is right on with wurmcoil engine. Some decks just can't answer him without like 5 cards. He turned into inferno titan for me with the rise of maverick. Now that its numbers are dwindling I may reconsider the lifelinking deathtoucher.

igri_is_a_bk
02-08-2013, 11:58 AM
I assumed if a Mountain becomes a Land Creature then it is nonbasic. I'm not entirely familiar with the interaction. If anyone could clear that up, that'd be great.

You don't need as many Mountains for Koth to work as you guys think. Mainly, he gets used for his +1 which requires only one Mountain. Between five fetches, five Mountains, and four Blood Moons (dropped Reforge for the fourth), I have a basic in play each game. If Koth's +1 is the mashed potatoes, then his -2 is the gravy. Once you do have Blood Moon in play, your mana can be tight unless you have a Song in hand. That's when his -2 shines most. And tbh, I haven't used his -5 yet.

Do you guys think Pyromancy is a sacred cow to the deck? I really don't, as you all know. But I have a hard time believing that I'm the only one who has a problem with it.

Koby
02-08-2013, 12:16 PM
I assumed if a Mountain becomes a Land Creature then it is nonbasic. I'm not entirely familiar with the interaction. If anyone could clear that up, that'd be great.

You don't need as many Mountains for Koth to work as you guys think. Mainly, he gets used for his +1 which requires only one Mountain. Between five fetches, five Mountains, and four Blood Moons (dropped Reforge for the fourth), I have a basic in play each game. If Koth's +1 is the mashed potatoes, then his -2 is the gravy. Once you do have Blood Moon in play, your mana can be tight unless you have a Song in hand. That's when his -2 shines most. And tbh, I haven't used his -5 yet.

Do you guys think Pyromancy is a sacred cow to the deck? I really don't, as you all know. But I have a hard time believing that I'm the only one who has a problem with it.

Koth does not modify the existing supertype (Basic), just the subtypes.
Thus, "Basic Land - Mountain" now becomes - "Basic Land Creature - Mountain Elemental"

Kich867
02-08-2013, 12:28 PM
Game 2 I mull to five with an opening chalice x=1. I keep, drop it in play and take chip damage from a his turn 1 llanowar, and two priests he was allowed to play for a few turns. With a gaea's cradle he had enough land to GSZ for regal force. That gave him enough cards to find an answer to chalice. He then deals with the chalice the turn before I can do anything constructive, and begins to combo off. He has two glimpse of natures going and draws his deck down to 5 cards. Casts Emrakul and forgets to announce the extra turn trigger. He continues to play useless elves. Then he tries to untap for his second turn and I stop him. I'm holding reforge the soul in hand and all I have to do is untap and cast it for the win. Too bad I'm a nice guy. I explain to him that these days you have to announce every trigger and someone else will definitely stick it to him with that. Then pick my cards up.

Objective Complete.
-Hdeck

Just as a heads up, this isn't actually the case and wasn't the case at the time of the tournament. In the future, your opponent in no way has to announce the Emrakul extra turn trigger--it's implied that the trigger resolves correctly unless your opponent takes an action or announces something that would imply that it was forgotten. This was changed in the recent missed triggers policy change. Him untapping to take his next turn is all that is required to resolve the trigger. It is implied that the trigger is forgotten if he passes and you take your turn, and that's the only way it can be missed now.

He'll never get knocked for it anymore, as it really should be, the whole "Gotcha!" era of magic where people could dick people over for obviously implied trigger resolution was silly. Similarly if someone had 3 exalted creatures out, I don't think you'd tell them they didn't resolve their triggers properly if they said "swing for 5" with a 2/2 instead of saying, "First exalted trigger, second exalted trigger, third exalted trigger, swing for 5."

hdeck12
02-08-2013, 06:15 PM
@Kich: Thats great to hear, I can't stand the arguing over triggers that are implied but not always explicitly stated. A little while ago I was at a tournament and people were getting nailed for not announcing the annihilator trigger. Was that fixed with the new rules changed too? What if I say "attack with emrakul" and my opponent says "no blocks", and goes to adjust his life total without sacrificing the two lands that are in play. Do they stay or go?

@Koby: glad you're still checkin in on us.

@Igri: Ok. I'll buy it. Probably won't try it, but understand it. I agree with reforge for moon. I'm not sure what mine will become yet but moons a strong contender.

I was hoping to give this a whirl at SCG Edison but with all the snow on the east coast everything's still up in the air :-(. Only other time I was at an SCG Open was in Buffalo and I got a game loss to stone blade for misregistering (writing 'Chalice' instead of 'Chalice of the void') my deck. Didn't get a game 3 and lost the match. And got a game loss to rug in round 5 to be out of prizes for presenting an illegal deck. The judge asked me to hurry up shuffling (even though we had only used 5 minutes of the round for game 1) since I took a few minutes boarding. In my nervous hurry I counted out my sideboard and it was 15 so I just shoved my deck together and presented. Deck check time, oh yeah and a warning for slow playing cause you took too long to board and shuffle. Thanks judge, I like most of you but this one's bummin me out. He comes back and a through the breach is missing from the 75. Two judges and myself can't find it, I accept a game loss into a match loss. I walk outside look through my pile and find it stuck between two wurm tokens...FML. Hoping to redeem my poor performance, in what I think is a pretty good field.

Koby
02-08-2013, 06:25 PM
@Kich: Thats great to hear, I can't stand the arguing over triggers that are implied but not always explicitly stated. A little while ago I was at a tournament and people were getting nailed for not announcing the annihilator trigger. Was that fixed with the new rules changed too? What if I say "attack with emrakul" and my opponent says "no blocks", and goes to adjust his life total without sacrificing the two lands that are in play. Do they stay or go?


The new trigger rules assume all triggers will happen, as long as no other meaningful game actions have occurred. Life-total changes or declaring blockers is a meaningful game action. If awareness of the trigger was not demonstrated prior to taking damage or declaring blockers, then the trigger is missed. The attacking player would have to have missed the annihilator and acknowledge a blocker for it to have been missed.

Koby
02-08-2013, 06:30 PM
// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [MM] Sandstone Needle
2 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
5 [UNH] Mountain

// Creatures
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 [AVR] Griselbrand
3 [M12] Inferno Titan
4 [RTR] Worldspine Wurm

// Spells
4 [US] Sneak Attack
4 [CHK] Through the Breach
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MR] Seething Song
1 [AVR] Reforge the Soul
3 [DK] Blood Moon
3 [SOM] Koth of the Hammer

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [UL] Defense Grid
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [CMD] Chaos Warp
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap



This is more or less what I had envisioned when I heard of the mono-red Sneak deck. List looks solid, and time for me to sleeve it up :D

EDIT: OK finally built this list. Played it in a local 10 man tourney with a lot of Storm, so I packed 4 Chalice and 3 MBT to help fight.

Round 1 - Show & Tell (2-0), his Show & Tell is symmetrical, my TtB is asymmetrical. Easy win.
Round 2 - 4c Storm (0-2), can't do much Game 1, then I keep a good hand w/o Storm hate, but get discarded out of the game. Too fast and disruptive.
Round 3 - UW Miracles (2-0), I have all the time in the world. I cast 2 Inferno Titans and they both get countered, clearing the room for TtB to put in a Worldspine Wurm. Take 15 then 3 5/5s seal it up.
Round 4 - RUG Delver - he scoops to me so we can split the prizes.

I also tested vs Maverick, and Inferno Titan is ridiculous at dispatching Gaddock Teeg.
I had a blast with this deck, even if it does depend on its opening hand more than other decks.

4 Tops are definitely good in this deck, and I could see playing 1 Faithless Looting just to increase the amount of filtering effects too. I don't know what I would cut.

igri_is_a_bk
02-11-2013, 02:29 AM
Cool stuff, Koby. Faster combo is Big Red's primary concern and Blood Moon isn't always great there, unfortunately. Did you get a chance to cast Koth or Reforge during the day? And if so, was your opponent able to answer Koth?

Cabs
02-11-2013, 06:07 AM
Hi all

Been keeping tabs on this thread for a while now.

My friend borrowed the deck from me for a local win-a-FoW tournament and took it down. I don't know the details as I wasn't able to attend but know the field had EsperBalde, Dredge, Jund, Enchantress, Zombardment etc.

I played the following list at a legacy side-event this weekend at GP London:

4 Sneak
4 Through the Breach
2 Pyromancy
4 Emrakul
4 Worldspine Wurm
3 Griselbrand
3 Inferno Titan
4 Defense Grid
4 Faithless Looting
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Seething Song
1 Lotus Petal
1 Grim Monolith
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Sandstone Needle
2 City of Traitors
1 Karakas
8 Mountain

We played 5 rounds of swiss with no cut to top 8. Unfortunatley I didn't take any notes so cannot give you a full report but I did manage to beat Junk, Jund, Maverick and Goblins going 4-0 into the final round. I then lost a close 1-2 against EsperBlade and finished in 2nd.

I had a good amount of turn 2 Emrakuls and Wurms! I hard cast Titan against Maverick taking out his Thalia, Hierarch and Dryad Arbor making his Cradle useless - that was sweet! I will definately consider the SDT and 5 fetches switch for the Lootings, 4 Mountains and the Karakas. As Koby says, it would be good to play 1 Looting as well but I'm not sure what to cut...

The event was £10 entry and I walked away with 8 packs of Gatecrash and a French FBB Plateau. Not a bad day!

Cheers,
Ben

Koby
02-11-2013, 09:20 AM
I played the 3rd Griselbrand over Reforge the Soul. Maybe I should try Reforge instead

hdeck12
02-11-2013, 09:35 PM
@Cabs:...Awesome! Can't wait to see how many others have "been keeping tabs" on the thread and start crushing events now that we have some finer tuned lists.

@Koby: YAY! Killing teeg with Titan is one of my favorite plays with this deck. I wouldn't enjoy playing this deck half as much online. The look on people's faces when titan hits the board and does ridiculous things is priceless.

I have mixed feelings about a singleton faithless. As soon as I cut them, I thought about how often I would still end up with extra combo pieces in my hand and would still want one. But I looked at every card and wanted it more than a faithless, no clue what to cut...so I guess we're all in the same boat on that idea.

SCG Edison Report (Only notes are life totals and memories, skip to bottom for reflections)
Legacy Challenge (4 rounds, prizes based on record): 3-0-1
Main Event (9 rounds, cut to top 8) 4-4 drop

This was my second SCG event. I managed to avoid any game losses for being dumb, or even any warnings for being, anything. YAY. I wasn't sure what to expect other than a wide open field. There were 60? people in the legacy challenge and 250+ for the main event.

List

4 sandstone needle
4 ancient tomb
4 scalding tarn
1 wooded foothills
2 city of traitors
4 mountain

4 seething song
4 simian spirit guide
1 lotus petal

3 worldspine wurm
2 griselbrand
4 emrakul, the aeons torn
2 inferno titan

4 sneak attack
4 through the breach
3 pyromancy

3 sensei's divining top
1 increasing vengeance
3 defense grid
3 blood moon

//SB
4 leyline of sanctity
1 defense grid
2 volcanic fallout
2 chaos warp
1 blood moon
2 trinisphere
3 chalice of the void


Legacy Challenge
R1 Elves.
Game 1 I take 4 damage from ancient tomb and his life goes 20-15-3-1-X I did a lot of turn one play ancient tomb, cast top, spin top all day. It's awesome.
Game 2 I get attacked for 3 points of damage, his life doesn't change, win. I like playing elves, I think it's our best matchup.
1-0

R2 Burn.
Game 1 I take two swings from a goblin guide and he dies.
Game 2. This was a really tough game to lose. I open with a leyline and a chalice on 1. I lose the game. He dropped an ensnaring bridge on turn three, I would have won on my turn 3. Couldn't find the pyromancy or warp before he sulfiric vortex, flame rift, flame rift, POP. If I had been smart and played around Price of Progress I would have won this game. It didn't even cross my mind that I could lose with all my defenses up.
Game 3. I draw the nuts. Thank you planeswalker in the sky, you must have seen that last game.
2-0

R3. Esperblade.
Game 1 When he taps out for stoneforge he's forced to pitch spell pierce to FOW my moon. His inquisition of kozilek only lets him save time and move to game 3.
Game 2. I keep a really strong 7 but vendillion clique is a better clock then Stoneforge. FOW can still be cast for free. And thoughtseize is better discard than inquisition. He gets there.
Game 3. This is a real close game, Pyromancy throws Wurm->Grisel->Emrakul with two turns before a clique finishes me off.
3-0

R4 Sneak Show.
This guy was sitting next to me a round earlier and was fascinated by my deck. He seemed real nice, and I was real hungry. So I offered a draw, I think I woulda got there but 25 credit, 3 Gatecrash, and someone to talk with tomorrow sounded better than 50 credit and someone to avoid eye contact with tomorrow.
3-0-1

Get some food and go crash for the night. Don't get much sleep because people are up testing late and loud.

Main event.

R1 BUG Control
Game 1 He never draws any business. Creeping tarpit and FOW are all I see so I'm thinking some sort of landstill, wrong.
Game 2 Goyf beats me down to 6. I run him out of disruption and get there.
1-0

R2 ANT
Game 1. I die turn 2 before I get to untap my sandstone and double stone rain him.
Game 2. I mull once or twice, keep a decent hand with leyline. Turn 1 he chain of vapors it. Turn 2 he kills me
1-1

R3 RUG (I had a 15 minutes of fame moment here. I sat down and my opponent said "I don't play legacy but I know who you are" I think he saw my picture on the jupiter website. it was cool)
Game 1. I get there.
Game 2. I blow this game. I have the chance to drop an early trinisphere. It gets double dazed. I had a guide in hand and one on top of my library with a top in play. I was so caught off guard by the second daze that I forgot to draw the guide and pitch it to sure up the game. I resolve titan. He gets one swing in. A lot of brainstorms and ponders later a mongoose shows up. That and a lightning bolt get my titan. He grinds me out with a really big goyf.
Game 3. I get there.
2-1

R4 Belcher
Game 1 I keep 7 that has everything but seething song. I spin my top off an ancient tomb turn 1. He makes 18 goblins. I am a spirit guide short of getting there with wurm.
Game 2. I have to go to 4 to see a single board card after bringing in 13. my 4 is leyline, wurm, wurm, fallout. In hindsight that was the keeper. I go down to 2 and see chalice land. I play chalice at 0 and pass. He casts belcher through a chalice at 0. I draw a chaos warp. He draws and activates belcher with a chalice on zero still. Oh well. Was hoping to avoid this one.
2-2

R5 Jund
Game 1 One Thoughtseize is not enough to stop me.
Game 2. Now I understand why Jund is a deck. I Sensei's top my way past Thoughtsieze, Hymn and Duress. And for the first time, I resolve wurm and he does not end the game. It's a little fuzzy here. He's at 14 with liliana, Goyf, Deathrite, Bob and an x/2, I swing, he blocks with the x/2. Going to 1, He removes wurm in response to the shuffle trigger, going to 3. Liliana makes me sac a token. Abrupt Decay gets another one, and a now 3/4 goyf and bob are ready to block the last one. By the end of this turn he's at 2. so I choose not to attack since it puts my board state at nothing and his with an active lilliana and cards in hand. I am banking on bob killing him. Bob flips a 1 drop and I die while hes at one life. This was the closet game I played all day. Well done Dave Ride, well done.
Game 3. He knocks me down to 11 and I get there.

3-2
R6 MUD
Game 1 all I see are a welder and metal worker. I get there
Game 2 I get there through a loadstone.
4-2

R7 R/U Burn
Game 1 Emrakul gets through the breached. I get pretty light on land thanks to ancient tomb and having to needle my way through pierce and daze. He finds two lands and we're both at 1. I'm spiinning my top and hes brainstorming. He wins by casting price of progress, maintaining priority,dazing his POP, and Dazing his Daze, returning his two Volcs to his hand. Nice play Doug McKay...Nice play.
Game 2. Favorite opening hand alert. I Turn 2 cast seething song into Defense grid with 3 mana up to pay for pierce daze, he can't do anything but let it resolve, (if he forces, he knows I'll just resolve someting else, he plans to get to three mana before I can go off) and with three floating and his counters turned off I dropped trinisphere. Game over quickly follows.
Game 3 He gets there. Tomb doesn't help me and I'm either a mana or two life (depending on how you look at it) short of getting there. Actually I think I would have won this game if one of my tops had been a faithless. I knew the second card down, but didn't have enough to spin my top and cast it. If I could have faithlessed, I woulda been able to do it.
4-3

R8 Bant
I don't remember this one at all. I was so tired and all my teammates were ready to leave as soon as I got my next loss. An exalted Geist makes pretty good work of me. It goes to 3 games and I think I"m going to win, I pop my top, set the card aside and cast through the breach, it resolves, and I flip over the emrakul that I pulled from the top of my deck. It's a sandstone needle. What, really? Wheres the emrakul? I lose. Must be hallucinating from lack of sleep. Drop and go home.
4-4 Drop.


Reflections
Leylines are out. It messes up how I mulligan and its SUCH a dead draw. Pyromancy isn't even in the deck for those matchups. I want some combination of Mindbreak Trap, and Pyrostatic Pillar.

In a little over a year playing in upstate NY I haven't run into Belcher or ANT. I have met TES a few times, but it was limited. These decks are FAR more common in huge open tournaments. Our game against them sucks. Not sure how I want to approach that one. It makes me understand why you guys are running pyroclasm over fallout. Having to ship hands to see board cards means less land, and hitting double red/3CC before zounds of goblins trample you isn't always possible. I think the clasms are coming in. Fallout is far more important in a lot of situations. Clasm is almost as good in all of them and this situation is far more important.

It was a pretty good weekend. Didn't get a lot of good matchups but still ended up doing ok. Never felt completely out of any match but the Belcher and I just drew some terrible hands, what are you gunna do. Back to the drawing board.

Keep Sneakin
-HDeck

hessenbob
02-14-2013, 11:42 AM
I've been playing the deck a lot more and had a lot of success. I agree with the discussion on using Leylines and think I'll be using Grafdiggers instead. When playing Dredge I found that I often was drawing into the Leyline without the ability to cast it, or in a situation where I was pondering whether to mulligan an otherwise good hand.

Other changes I made, was swapping out Bloodstained Mire for Scalding Tarns, which seemed to keep people on their feet as to whether I had counters. Went two and two overall, with 0-2 vs Dredge and, 1-2 vs Maverick.

Without delving the topic off course too much, I found that the Scalding Tarn lead to a game 1 Cabal Therapy for Show and Tell, with Sneak Attack the second game (when he figured out I wasn't running Show and Tell. Keeping the deck effectively the same, has anyone considered running 2x Volcanic Islands and and 4x Show and Tells?

Koby
02-15-2013, 01:10 PM
I've been playing the deck a lot more and had a lot of success. I agree with the discussion on using Leylines and think I'll be using Grafdiggers instead. When playing Dredge I found that I often was drawing into the Leyline without the ability to cast it, or in a situation where I was pondering whether to mulligan an otherwise good hand.

Other changes I made, was swapping out Bloodstained Mire for Scalding Tarns, which seemed to keep people on their feet as to whether I had counters. Went two and two overall, with 0-2 vs Dredge and, 1-2 vs Maverick.

Without delving the topic off course too much, I found that the Scalding Tarn lead to a game 1 Cabal Therapy for Show and Tell, with Sneak Attack the second game (when he figured out I wasn't running Show and Tell. Keeping the deck effectively the same, has anyone considered running 2x Volcanic Islands and and 4x Show and Tells?

At that point, you're just better off playing Sneak Show. The difference here is that Through the Breach replaces Show & Tell in the Mono-red version; with an adjusted manabase to enable both Sneak Attack & TtB.

hdeck12
02-18-2013, 06:34 PM
I played in a 34 person tournament this weekend. Didn't play Big Red but saw someone else that I didn't know playing what looked like my Jupiter list (http://jupitergames.info/articles/2013/52837/decklists-february-nelc). That felt pretty cool. Just wanna say thanks to everyone for helping me tweak this list to something much more powerful than what I started with. Probably takin a break from the mountains for a bit, but I plan on taking GP DC down with Big Red in 9 months so keep tuning!

@guy playing Big Red at Mythic Games (http://www.mythicgameselmira.com/Forum/news.php) 2/16/13: If you read this thread, say Hi. I didn't really have a chance to thank you for having faith in the deck. I was too busy trying to remember how to play islands :-(. If you take it to Jupiter in two weeks, cut the leylines for 2 pyrosatic pillar, 1 mindbreak trap, 1 trinisphere, and switch 2 maindeck defense grid for 2 sideboard trinispheres. If I play it, that'll probably be my update.

Kid
02-19-2013, 03:13 AM
I played in a 34 person tournament this weekend. Didn't play Big Red but saw someone else that I didn't know playing what looked like my Jupiter list (http://jupitergames.info/articles/2013/52837/decklists-february-nelc). That felt pretty cool. Just wanna say thanks to everyone for helping me tweak this list to something much more powerful than what I started with. Probably takin a break from the mountains for a bit, but I plan on taking GP DC down with Big Red in 9 months so keep tuning!

@guy playing Big Red at Mythic Games (http://www.mythicgameselmira.com/Forum/news.php) 2/16/13: If you read this thread, say Hi. I didn't really have a chance to thank you for having faith in the deck. I was too busy trying to remember how to play islands :-(. If you take it to Jupiter in two weeks, cut the leylines for 2 pyrosatic pillar, 1 mindbreak trap, 1 trinisphere, and switch 2 maindeck defense grid for 2 sideboard trinispheres. If I play it, that'll probably be my update.

Hi,

I'm kinda new here.
I've been playtesting the deck on cockatrice & irl for a while now. Very happy with how it turns out :)

I have a question. Don't you think that trinisphere just screws up SDT?
I mean if you board in 2 other Trinisphere against combo & stuff, you have to side out your SDT because this is not synergetic enough? don't you think?
It's like Chalice + SDT. If you side in Chalice, 80% of the time you do it @ 1. And when you topdeck your SDT with a Chalice on play it just makes me want to cry :)

Seriously, I used to play Chalice MD because I think it's just awesome and so powerful. But when you made this version with SDT it was just non synergetic, found myself several times with the situation above... it just killed me.

What's your opinion?

I really appreciate what you did with the deck, really, great job :)

hdeck12
02-19-2013, 10:42 PM
Let me start by saying casting a SDT behind a trinisphere is WAY less face palming than behind a chalice at x=1. It's a little counter intuitive, but lets look at the play lines and you'll (hopefully) see why there's not much wrong with playing trinisphere in the main deck along with top.

There are two important differences between Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere.
The first is that we actually can still cast a Sensei's Divining Top through a trinisphere. Yes it cost 3, but lets be honest, mana is sort of our thing. The second is in the casting cost. Casting a chalice at x=1 means two mana. We can do this with an ancient tomb, a mountain and Simian Spirit Guide or two guides. With trinishpere you need a tomb and a guide, a mountain and 2 guides or 3 guides. The number of keepable hands that cast a turn one 3 drop are dramatically lower than the number of hands that cast a turn one 2 drop. So you will still have most of your turn ones to cast top. I don't recommend keeping an all in turn 1 trinisphere hand. It's no blood moon.

Things trinishpere does for us.

1. Turns off counterspells, swords to plowshares and discard until opponents third land drop. This is mostly what defense grid was doing, but defense grid does it better. Cost one less to play, and adds three to the casting cost, not just >= 3. It's for reason two that I want the Trinispheres.

2. Keeps ANT/TES/HighTide/Elves from winning unil they remove it. This is why its time for trinishpere over grid. Combo is on the rise. We have no counterspells. In red, the best we can do is REB. Which DOESN'T counter Tendrils of Agony, Empty the warrens, Dread Return, or Goblin Charbelcher. It doesn't even counter the rituals that people are using to power out these bombs. Being able to slow down the cantrips/mana accelerants is where I want to be right now.

3. Makes Blue/X decks decide if they want to cantrip or counter until the 6th land drop (cause then they can do both). This is for people playing Pierce/Daze/FOW/Brainstorm/Ponder plus X. If they don't open on some free counterspells then they have to start cantripping. If they do that, their land is tapped down and they can't cast counters.

On to lines of play.

In order to cast a turn 1 trinishpere we need three cards minimum. A free mana, an ancient tomb and the trinishpere. Lets say that is our standard for keeping a turn 1 or 2 trinishpere. (Trinishperes in the late game can be useful but usually aren't. This is the same case with grid. So we aren't losing anything on that front.) Also you never want to play a turn 1 city of traitors unless you're 100% sure you can win on or before your next land drop. Your sphere can get countered, your next spell can get countered, Thalia can hit the board. It's terrible, trust me. So the assumptions I'm making are that you have an ancient tomb or sandstone needle, A trinisphere, a top and a mountain or a guide

Turn 1, play tomb, play top, spin top, turn 2 play mountain cast trinisphere, turn 3, 3 land up plus whatever you play.

Turn 1 play tomb, pitch guide cast trinisphere, turn 2 play land cast top, turn 3 spin top, have 2 land us plus whatever you play.

Turn 1 play sandstone, pass. Turn 2 play tomb, cast Top then Trinishpere, Turn 3 spin top with 3 land up plus whatever you play.

Turn 1 play sandstone, pass. Turn 2 play mountain. This is the only line that you need to think for. If they played a ponder, brainstorm or 5 color land, on turn 1, you cast trinishpere. If they played a mana dork or discard spell NOT named Duress then you play top and start looking for business

If you just go three mountains then you have plenty of time to play top. If top isn't in your opener and Trinishpere IS, then you must have a good enough hand to just win. If the game turns into a grind and you're in top deck mode...paying three for sensei's is WAY worth it.

So anyways, playing top and 3sphere seems pretty bad but our sol lands keep it in our favor. And it's nothing like chalice. Early game, you just have to sequence correctly and late game there should be no problem tapping three colorless to cast a sensei's top if necessary. If you want to avoid all this, just pile in some Magus of the Moons. I'm currently using those slots to improve the storm match and try to catch some counterspells too. If you really wanna make people cry, add more 3spheres, and a set of Chrome Moxen and Seismic Mages. Hope this helped. Good Luck!

lost_ronin_soul
02-19-2013, 11:53 PM
seeing magnus of the moon makes me think of blastminer, and dwarven blastminer lol, Hey Hdeck, what's yourthoughts on pyrostatic pillars versus storm and elves?

Kid
02-20-2013, 04:56 AM
Let me start by saying casting a SDT behind a trinisphere is WAY less face palming than behind a chalice at x=1. It's a little counter intuitive, but lets look at the play lines and you'll (hopefully) see why there's not much wrong with playing trinisphere in the main deck along with top.

There are two important differences between Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere.
The first is that we actually can still cast a Sensei's Divining Top through a trinisphere. Yes it cost 3, but lets be honest, mana is sort of our thing. The second is in the casting cost. Casting a chalice at x=1 means two mana. We can do this with an ancient tomb, a mountain and Simian Spirit Guide or two guides. With trinishpere you need a tomb and a guide, a mountain and 2 guides or 3 guides. The number of keepable hands that cast a turn one 3 drop are dramatically lower than the number of hands that cast a turn one 2 drop. So you will still have most of your turn ones to cast top. I don't recommend keeping an all in turn 1 trinisphere hand. It's no blood moon.

Things trinishpere does for us.

1. Turns off counterspells, swords to plowshares and discard until opponents third land drop. This is mostly what defense grid was doing, but defense grid does it better. Cost one less to play, and adds three to the casting cost, not just >= 3. It's for reason two that I want the Trinispheres.

2. Keeps ANT/TES/HighTide/Elves from winning unil they remove it. This is why its time for trinishpere over grid. Combo is on the rise. We have no counterspells. In red, the best we can do is REB. Which DOESN'T counter Tendrils of Agony, Empty the warrens, Dread Return, or Goblin Charbelcher. It doesn't even counter the rituals that people are using to power out these bombs. Being able to slow down the cantrips/mana accelerants is where I want to be right now.

3. Makes Blue/X decks decide if they want to cantrip or counter until the 6th land drop (cause then they can do both). This is for people playing Pierce/Daze/FOW/Brainstorm/Ponder plus X. If they don't open on some free counterspells then they have to start cantripping. If they do that, their land is tapped down and they can't cast counters.

On to lines of play.

In order to cast a turn 1 trinishpere we need three cards minimum. A free mana, an ancient tomb and the trinishpere. Lets say that is our standard for keeping a turn 1 or 2 trinishpere. (Trinishperes in the late game can be useful but usually aren't. This is the same case with grid. So we aren't losing anything on that front.) Also you never want to play a turn 1 city of traitors unless you're 100% sure you can win on or before your next land drop. Your sphere can get countered, your next spell can get countered, Thalia can hit the board. It's terrible, trust me. So the assumptions I'm making are that you have an ancient tomb or sandstone needle, A trinisphere, a top and a mountain or a guide

Turn 1, play tomb, play top, spin top, turn 2 play mountain cast trinisphere, turn 3, 3 land up plus whatever you play.

Turn 1 play tomb, pitch guide cast trinisphere, turn 2 play land cast top, turn 3 spin top, have 2 land us plus whatever you play.

Turn 1 play sandstone, pass. Turn 2 play tomb, cast Top then Trinishpere, Turn 3 spin top with 3 land up plus whatever you play.

Turn 1 play sandstone, pass. Turn 2 play mountain. This is the only line that you need to think for. If they played a ponder, brainstorm or 5 color land, on turn 1, you cast trinishpere. If they played a mana dork or discard spell NOT named Duress then you play top and start looking for business

If you just go three mountains then you have plenty of time to play top. If top isn't in your opener and Trinishpere IS, then you must have a good enough hand to just win. If the game turns into a grind and you're in top deck mode...paying three for sensei's is WAY worth it.

So anyways, playing top and 3sphere seems pretty bad but our sol lands keep it in our favor. And it's nothing like chalice. Early game, you just have to sequence correctly and late game there should be no problem tapping three colorless to cast a sensei's top if necessary. If you want to avoid all this, just pile in some Magus of the Moons. I'm currently using those slots to improve the storm match and try to catch some counterspells too. If you really wanna make people cry, add more 3spheres, and a set of Chrome Moxen and Seismic Mages. Hope this helped. Good Luck!


Ok, I see.
Makes sense...
Thank you for your insights and tips. Very helpful.

So the deck would be something like that :

4 Sandstone Needle
2 City of Traitors
4 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Lotus Petal

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Griselbrand
3 Worldspine Wurm
2 Inferno Titan

4 Sneak Attack
3 Pyromancy
3 Through the Breach

4 Blood Moon
4 Seething Song
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Defense Grid
2 Trinisphere

SB : 1 Trinisphere
SB : 2 Defense Grid
SB: 3 Pyroclasm
SB: 3 Chaos Warp
SB: 1 Through the Breach
SB: 1 Woodfall Primus
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void

I wonder why don't you put a 4th TTB directly in the maindeck?
Is there a reason? Afraid of Extirpate? Surgical Extraction?

Kid

hdeck12
02-20-2013, 08:24 PM
@Kid: Looks solid for the most part. 2 things. Cut the woodfall from the board. I don't think he's good enough in any matchup.I went with grafdiggers cage. Since the main is a little stronger against combo I switched that spot to GSZ/graveyard hate. Second, 4 moons main is a lot. I think you should either go three moons and one Magus or just three moons and send one to the board (for the 4th through the breach). I've found having double moon gets clunky when we have no chrome mox or faithless looting. As for TTB...I go back and fourth between the 4th one in the board and the main. Its in the main right now, but thats also because I need as many targets for increasing vengeance as possible. Sometimes I leave it in the board because if you have sneak attack, and can resolve it, then they are dead cards. It's hard to cast them against blue decks, and sometimes one swing isn't even enough. So yeah, you play it where you want, but it probably belongs main.

goblinsplayer
02-26-2013, 10:52 PM
um, has anyone tried gitaxian probe? It seems interesting and gives you information about the opponent's hand. It also gives you a free card.

hdeck12
03-02-2013, 05:12 PM
@goblins: I haven't tried Gitaxian Probe in this deck. I've thought about it but never wanted it over any of the other cards. The core being the sneak effects, the fatties, the guides and songs. The 'cut-able' cards include titan, moon, grid, top, 3sphere, pyromancy. They would speed the deck up. But they would also change how you mulligan. You couldn't reliably keep a hand with multiple probes expecting to draw what you need. They're no ponder. With cards that impact the board (or dig like top) you can at least develop a plan from your opening hand. I don't think there's anything wrong with playing probe, but I see having to mulligan even more which I don't want to be doing. We also don't interact with the stack a whole lot so information helps us less than other decks. Seeing soft counters is about the only thing that would change our game plan. And seeing an island means we play around counterspells and dig for multiple threats over creatures anyways. If you try probe give us some reflections

@Everyone: So in practicing with islands I've been doing a lot of "brainstorming' and have come up with an idea. We want chalice in the main deck right? What if we turn the tops into scroll racks? First off I tried it out this weekend and the card is WAY above my head. But I saw a lot of potential.
Upsides. We usually have cards in hand. Being able to draw 3-4 cards is way better than just looking at them. Being able to see the new cards before arranging the top of your library is awesome. You can plan so far ahead. % chance that griselbrand will brick drops to almost 0.
Downsides. Cards in hand are a bit of a resource early in the game. It was hard to keep half my hand while activating scroll rack. I just wasn't drawing enough cards. When activating it for my entire hand, I would find what I wanted but was forced to wait another turn to go off. WAYYY more mental work. I made a lot of mistakes in ordering the cards I put back on top. I didn't really plan for disruption when arranging them, then ended up shuffling away things I needed, but thats fixable.

TheArchitect
03-02-2013, 06:30 PM
Top is immune traditional removal while scroll rack is going to get hit with decays.

Its like comparing Top vs Sylvan library I think. Top is obviously better if you have more mana, but some decks just cant afford that. This one can however.

Henry's presence has been a constant terror to the decks Ive played for the past few years but Ive actually been thinking about making this deck for a while, and more so lately. I was just wondering, what are this decks bad matchups are? This is Evan btw.

hdeck12
03-03-2013, 01:46 PM
Top is immune traditional removal while scroll rack is going to get hit with decays.

Its like comparing Top vs Sylvan library I think. Top is obviously better if you have more mana, but some decks just cant afford that. This one can however.

Henry's presence has been a constant terror to the decks Ive played for the past few years but Ive actually been thinking about making this deck for a while, and more so lately. I was just wondering, what are this decks bad matchups are? This is Evan btw.

Evan, you should make it and crush face with it. I never even thought about how top was harder to deal with. In playing top no ones ever tried to destroy it so I almost forgot its because its hard to kill, not because its irrelevant.

Problem Cards
Iona, Shield of Emeria means count your land, if it's less than 9, scoop and go to the next game.
Gaddock Teeg means you can no longer cast any sneak/pyromancy effects in your deck.
Matchups (Cards that influence them)
Bad Matchups (Number of 'stompy' artifacts): Absolute worst matchup is reanimator. As long as they're playing an Iona that is, I would never play reanimator without an iona so I just expect all my opponents to have one. Mono blue fringe decks are pretty troublesome too. Something like Hivemind, Dreamhalls, Omniscience. Anything that can kill the turn it goes off AND use counterspells/discard is our hard matchup. Sneak/Show isn't as bad because they have to attack and we're just as prepared to block as we are attack. I hate sitting down across from TES, Spy, Belcher, and High Tide. Those are the decks I expect to run into in the current meta.
Neutral Matchups (Number of 'moon' effects): 3 color tempo/control. RUg, BUg, Junk, Esper, Jund. The ones playing delver and the full suite of soft counters are the hardest. If they flip a turn 1 delver with protection you're in trouble. If they can't pressure you then their one FOW and/or Discard spell is never enough. The Blade control decks are much easier than the delver tempo ones. KOTR into wastes isn't as bad as a lot of counters since we have the guides and rituals to supplement mana.
Good Matchups (number of rituals and draw effects): Burn, Elves,, Goblins, D&T. When it comes to monocolor we're the fastest. Decks that try to grind out the opponent or go over the top in the long game are pretty easy too. Anything with punishing fire, veteran explorer or goblin bombardment, usually don't last long enough to get get their engine running.

igri_is_a_bk
03-03-2013, 01:59 PM
I don't think Top is an optional card anymore. You can't expect to draw or mulligan into the combo every hand. I want one in every single hand, unless I'm sitting across from combo. While combo is more prominent now, the fairer decks make up a larger portion of any meta and Top gives us the selection we need. It was probably just incorrect to not have them and some fetches since the beginning.

TheArchitect
03-03-2013, 04:38 PM
Ya I could see how iona would be pretty bad.

I can take comfort in the fact that even the bad matchups can be improved if you think they will be more present in your meta. GY for reanimtor, pyroblast for blue fringe decks, mindbreak traps/stompy cards for storm decks.

I cockatrised the deck a bit and BUG and RUG seem to be maybe slightly unfavorable, while junk/jund were much easier.

I cant play legacy decks without tops in them anymore haha. Its so nice to have removal proof card selection every turn. Krosan grip, and an abrupt deck in response to cracking a fetch are all you really need to worry about with top.

Kid
03-18-2013, 06:22 AM
Tempo t resh & Maverick are 2 of the worst mashups for Big Red...
Did a tourney yesterday..
Won vs Sneak & Show (2-0)
Won vs Junk (2-0)

I was @ 2-0 (5rounds)

Lost 0-2 vs t resh (shitty hands + mulligan hard + mass counters for him = gg)
Lost 0-2 vs Maverick (Thalia MD + GT MD = gg. He topdecked the two GT...)

I dropped. I was so dman pissed because the tourney began very nicely and just turned into a nightmare with horrible hands, mulligans everygame...
Jeez...
I sincerly don't know what to do about the t resh mashup...
my meta is fucked up, some guys just still play Maverick even if the deckis dead for months now...
I nightmare I tell you...

hdeck12
03-18-2013, 11:49 PM
@Kid: sorry to hear that. Sometimes you just get bad hands, it's a magic thing. I recommend running some pyroclasms main deck over moon or grid. They're really good early game against maverick. If you run leyline of the void in your board, you can actually bring it in against thresh to keep yourself off a clock. It's an awkward line but works when you open one in your 7. Pyroclasm is pretty good early game (late game too if you're using the void trick) against them too. And if they fail to pressure you, then it's usually a win anyways. We have a lot of weapons against them. You really just have to decide which direction you want to attack from....and then hope you draw some board cards.

PollePotDK
03-24-2013, 03:50 PM
Hi all,

Long time lurker.

Been having a great time with Big Red at my local game store and thought I would bring it to the Annual unofficial danish championship tournament in Copenhagen, Denmark this saturday. The tournament are open for all and attracts participants from Sweden and Germany also, which is great, since it means more participants and greater prizes. This also means that the winner of the unofficial danish championship could be one outside Denmark, but that life and fine with me - here's the report from the Danish Legacy Masters 2013 (DLM 2013) with 85 participants and 7 rounds of magic plus Top 8. Annoter reason to pilot Big Red was that I didn't want to play 7 rounds of 50 minutes and not getting to eat or drink and eat and drink I did get to with this deck :smile:

DECKLIST:
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Inferno Titan
3 Worldspine Wurm
3 Griselbrand
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

2 Lotus Petal
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Blood Moon
3 Defense Grid
4 Seething Song
3 Pyromancy
4 Through the Breach
4 Sneak Attack

4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Mountains
4 Sandstone Needle
4 Woodfoot Hills

SB:
3 Pyroclasm
4 Faerie Macabre
2 Chaos Warp
3 Trinisphere
4 Leyline of Sanctity

I went 5-2 and placed 12th out of 85, so I'm pleased, but round 6 which was win-and-in, was an eventfull match, where I was extremely unlucky in game 3. But on to the report:

Round 1 - Bug Delver
Game 1 and 2: sadly very much alike, where I get countered, Stifled and wastelanded my ass of.

0-1 (0-2)

Bad start and I thought that this was the start to a very very long day with a lot of defeats, since the room was looted with Bug and Esper. But somehow I dodged them for the rest of the day.

Round 2: Food Chain Combo
Game 1: he starts and fetich Island and says GO. I play Sandstone and pass. He brainstorm EOT and play land GO. I go all in and drop land, Seething song, Sneak Attack and put Griselbrand into play. Draw 7 into fast mana and drop Emmy -> swing for win. Turn 2 kill!!
Game 2: he starts with Cabal Theraphy and fizzles ón Sneak Attack. I got everything, except an enabler which I draw two off the next two turns and make turn 2 kill again with Sneak Attack into Griselbrand and Worldspine World.

1-1 (2-2)

Round 3: Imperial Painter
Game 1: I start with fetchland GO. He drops Magus of the Moon. Its okay, since I got turn 4 Emrakul IF I can find an enabler and just need to last that long. On his turn 3 I got Sensei's Divining Top in play and he drop Phyrexian Revoker. With that ón the stack I spin the top and look into Petal, Land and Sneak. I spin again and tap to draw a card, so I can rearrange afterwards. I drop Sneak (he named Top with Revoker) and put Emmy into play and scoop.

Game 2: he start with Magus of the Moon again. I drop land and pass. He hit with Magus and play Grind Stone and pass. I Pyroclasm and pass. He drop imperial recruiter for Painter servant. I do something not eventfull and pass. He drop Painter BUT can't activite the same turn, which give mé the turn to put Emmy into play and he scoop.

2-1 (4-2)

Round 4: TinFins
Game 1: We get deckchecked and get 9 extra minutes (yeah right - like I need it). We get ordered decks back and we shuffles a lot to randomize the decks, still I muligan to 5 and him to 4. I drop Sandstone and pass. He drop Lotus Petal (crap storm I think) and he brainstorm into land and Ponders. Pass. I drop Blood Moon (he got Sea in play) and locks him out of the game until I find Emmy.

Game 2: he duresses me and see the Faerie Macabre I got in hand (kept 1 lander Ancient Tomb because of Faerie Macabre since I need I was the Underdog ón the draw). He goes of to my surprise and it turns out that he thought that I needed to cast it before it could be used and he got one card in hand and a swamp in play. Pass. Over the next two turns, I drop Blood Moon and Triniphere and I get there eventually.

3-1 (6-2)

Round 5: ANT
Game 1: I knew, I was up against Storm. He Thoughtseize me 3 times over two turns and leaves me with Pyromancy in hand, which I found weird, since Seething Song (which he toke) would be irrelevant with no enabler and fatty. I play Pyromancy and over somme turns I drop Blood Moon to lock him and eventually find Emrakul with Top to Pyromancy my opponent for the last 13 points.

Game 2: he turn 2 kills me.

Game 3: i got turn 2 Blood Moon or Through the Breach Emmy. I choose Emmy, since he got the presumably one of Island in play to swipe his board and drop Blood Moon next turn. Trinisphere joins the party and I get there with Sneak Attacked Emrakul.

4-1 (8-3)

At this point I'm pretty excited to turn a 0-1 into 4-1. Next one would be win-and-in.

Round 5: Death and Taxes (the winner of the tournament)
Game 1: I turn 2 hardcast Inferno Titan to kill Mother and hope he doesn't have swords to plowshare. He doesn't and Worldspine Wurm join Inferno Titan the next turn and we are off to game 2.

Game 2: despite getting Emmy through once he recovers and pull this one. My last play to try and survive, was Chaos Warp on one of two Sneak Attacks and I flip Land. Next card was Griselbrand. Sad face.

Game 3: i get Emmy Through again and leave him with an Aether Vial at 1. We both rebuilds since I had to use Sandstones for the last counters and had one land in play. I eventually get a Pyromancy into play and went I activate it I got Inferno Titan and Griselbrand in hand. He's at 4 life and he swords his Flickerwisp to hain life. He Rolls the dice and its Inferno Titan. Crap. He's at 1 life!!! From here he got answer on answer for everything I try. He drops Stoneforge for Batterskull and I'm suddenly far from and loose. It was so depressive, since I should had had this one, but Someone smiled at my opponent this time.

4-2 (9-5)

Round 7: BG something (Eva Green maybe)
Game 1: I Pyromancy him for the reminding 15 points with Emrakul without troubles after Toughtseize and fetchlands. No biggie.

Game 2: i turn 3 Through the Breach Worldspine Wurm and has 3 5/5 trample Wurms in play. He doesn't find his Maelstrom Pulse and I win.

5-2 (11-5)

Great tournament and happy with result despite the painfull round 6 defeat.

Some thoughts:
Every time I had Top I felt more comfortable and went I didn't have It, I wanted to trade any card in my hand for it. I might bump it to 4 - but don't know what to cut
Pyromancy gave me a lot of wins to my surprise. Gotten to like the card a little bit more :tongue:
Through the Breach is meeh, if it didn't give me the win except if the drop was Worldspine Wurm
Else loving the deck

Hope you enjoyed the read :smile: looking forward to play it again.

/PollePotDK

hdeck12
03-26-2013, 09:42 PM
@pollepot: Awesome! I knew some "long time lurker"s would start putting up numbers and want to share their stories soon. I've lost to monowhite decks twice in big matches so I know how much is sucks. Congrats on the Tin Fins match. Sounds like your board plan was right on. I haven't tested that one at all but assume it's not great. Blood moon seems to be a key to success right now. One question, how was Inferno Titan for you? I've gone down to one, and I might cut him all together since one of, untutorable targets are not what we want in a combo deck. I'm glad you support pyromancy, it's sweet and turns topdeck mode into a nightmare for your opponent. Again, CONGRATS!

lithiux
03-26-2013, 10:28 PM
What did you cut down the Inferno Titans for? I know there was some discussion about Wurmcoil Engines earlier in the thread. Did you do that or just go up to 4 each on the fatties?

hdeck12
03-26-2013, 11:56 PM
Titan was mostly for Gaddock Teeg removal when Maverick was topping the charts. Against white, he gets Swords to Plowsharesed. With maindeck Defense Grid we don't necessarily have to get the swords out of their hand before Worldspining. In the right circumstance it could help, but it's too much of a corner case. Against the black decks, Liliana makes quick work of him. She either instantly kills him or becomes a 4 loyalty if he's not in play. Using him as a sneak attack target to kill liliana isn't good enough in those matches. He's terrible against any storm or show and tell combo. I guess I just don't want him against any of the new popular decks. He's really good against RUg, but those numbers aren't where they used to be. In this list I'd cut him for a reforge the soul or the 4th Top. I've been working on a list with a lot of differences actually. My testing buddy has been busy lately though so I'm not sure if it's good enough...will spill the beans if it is.

nonja
03-27-2013, 09:14 AM
Took this deck to GPT Strasbourgh, 5 rounds, top8. Made top4, lost in semis 1-2 (got very unlucky) to UW Miracles.
Deck is real deal, I'll put a report and decklist later.

igri_is_a_bk
03-27-2013, 09:39 AM
Titan was mostly for Gaddock Teeg removal when Maverick was topping the charts. Against white, he gets Swords to Plowsharesed. With maindeck Defense Grid we don't necessarily have to get the swords out of their hand before Worldspining. In the right circumstance it could help, but it's too much of a corner case. Against the black decks, Liliana makes quick work of him. She either instantly kills him or becomes a 4 loyalty if he's not in play. Using him as a sneak attack target to kill liliana isn't good enough in those matches. He's terrible against any storm or show and tell combo. I guess I just don't want him against any of the new popular decks. He's really good against RUg, but those numbers aren't where they used to be. In this list I'd cut him for a reforge the soul or the 4th Top. I've been working on a list with a lot of differences actually. My testing buddy has been busy lately though so I'm not sure if it's good enough...will spill the beans if it is.

I appreciate the fact that Big Red can go aggro when the combo gets hated out. That's why I added Koth who works with Titan as the beat down crew. Seeing as SnT is a deck, we get incidentally hated out by a lot of the same cards. That's the major reason I want a secondary win condition. Perhaps it could be sideboard material, but I think it's necessary within the 75.

And I reiterate what I said a page or two ago: Top is a four-of. Unless you're up against combo, you want one. That would be a majority of your matches in a typical tournament. Even against combo it could be helpful with a turn one sol land to play and spin it because there's no loss of tempo with that line.

nonja
03-28-2013, 04:00 AM
And I reiterate what I said a page or two ago: Top is a four-of.

Tested both Tops and Faithless Looting. Currently I'm playing Looting, but I'm trying to seek third option.
Sensei's Diving Top: need to play fetchlands to increase effciency, sometimes it hurts to use Ancient Tomb or Sandstone Needle to acticate Top, if you reaveal 3 crap cards - not good.
Faithless Looting: Cheap, helps to dig through library when you need a fatty, has a flashback.

Megadeus
03-31-2013, 12:29 PM
Why is there no Trinisphere here?

xdavisx
03-31-2013, 03:41 PM
I've been out of the loop for sometime but I'm super stoked to see people jocking the deck nowadays. Keep it up

hdeck12
04-01-2013, 03:44 PM
@xdavisx: Stop in anytime! Things are going well on the mountain.

@megadeus: I have a love/hate relationship with trinisphere. Every time I think about the deck, or write stuff out on paper, trinishpere seems like one of the best options. Every time its actually in the deck and I draw it, I pretty much want to shoot myself (unless I'm playing storm combo) in the foot. I have yet to figure this conundrum out. We're sort of playing trinisphere with main deck defense grid. It's half a trinisphere because it does the same thing on our turn. Just doesn't do much on the opponents turn. We're really never trying to lock the opponent out, OR play defense. This deck is more about proactively crushing your opponent and disrupting your opponents disruption. Trinisphere is its own disruption. The more combo grows the better trinisphere will be. I just think it deserves a different build, maybe one with 56 other colorless cards. Though, this deck is pretty 'stompy' at heart so it has a home here, just needs the right set of circumstances to make an appearance.

Darkenslight
04-02-2013, 03:49 AM
If 3ball is such a problem, have you tried the other Resistor effects in the deck, such as Sphere of Resistance?

AnthroInt
04-17-2013, 06:53 PM
Hi there!

First off: Excuse my English, please. It’s not my first language.

I play Dragon Stompy for years now, but since Sneak Attack was always one of my favorite cards, I really love this deck´s incarnation, obviously.
Actually I plan to take this deck to the Bazaar of Moxen in a few weeks and therefore I want to share my thoughts with you.

The deck list I work on is as follows:

Mainboard:
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Magus of the Moon
3 Inferno Titan
2 Griselbrand
4 Worldspine Wurm
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Blood Moon
4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach
4 Seething Song
4 Sensei´s Divining Top
4 Mountain
2 Arid Mesa
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Sandstone Needle
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors

Sideboard: Work in progress…

A few comments on my list:
I think that Moon-effects are very powerful right now, so I’m running the full package. Either they win you the game immediately, or they buy you enough time to get the “combo”, or they draw counters.
I’m not quite sure, whether I need more protection in the mainboard, especially Defense Grid comes to mind. At least in the Sideboard I would like to run either those or Vexing Shusher. But since Defense Grid also has the potential to stop them from swords to plowshares our creatures, I’m leaning more towards the Grid.

Like PollePotDK above and some others here, I’m very happy with Tops and I always want to have one per game, although not always being able to shuffle with fetchlands because of moon-effects. They just make me feel more comfortable.

One of my big concerns is whether or not to keep Inferno Titan in the mainboard. In that regard, I think of replacing them with Pyromancy and/or Koth to have an alternative win-condition. I know that my suggested replacements make the list more vulnerable to Gaddock Teeg. Anyway, do you have any experiences with Koth in the Mainboard?

As already mentioned by hdeck12, Inferno Titan seems to be kind of a niche card nowadays. But it is good against RUG and as you might have noticed, RUG decks were somewhat representative at GP Strasbourg, at least at day 2 (https://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpstr13/day2#2) (“only” 13%, but hey, we are talking about Legacy).
And since I run 8 moon-effects, I like the possibility of killing Deathrite Shamans, which can help them to play around or even answer Moons, if you don´t have them early.
Their weakness against Combo and Sneak and Show is sadly quite obvious.
On the other hand, the Elves-Deck seem to have a comeback, at least in Europe, and I can imagine, that Titans can be useful in that matchup, even if you sneak-effect them in.

All in all, maybe we should focus the mainboard on our “combo” and move Titans to the board, since Legacy is so diverse and I can hardly anticipate what the meta at the bazaar will look like. All I can think of is that moon-effects are good right now.

Another question for me is how many fatties do we want? As you see, I run 10 at the moment (2 Grisel, 4 Wurm, 4 Emrakul) and that number or even less seems to have established for the most of you. I could also see adding some faithless looting in addition to SDT, to get more consistency.

Man, I really don’t know. So many questions, but I really want the deck to be good, at least to unfold its whole potential!
Therefore and for now, I would like to thank you all for working on this deck.

Greetings, AnthroInt

Koby
04-17-2013, 07:00 PM
I found the matchup against Sneak Show is quite good on the contrary. They cannot profitably cast Show & Tell (we run the same fatties and Sneak Attack).

xinque
04-17-2013, 11:12 PM
Haven't tried Magus in my build yet, but Inferno Titan is the only creature I can actually hardcast and in some matchups Titan alone is enough.

I guess running 8 Moon effects is a meta call. I've stalled out on quite a few games with a Top and early Blood Moon in play, only to have no action since my fetches are shut off and can't shuffle.

I've been running 3 Koth and still on the fence about him. He's not great but not terrible either. Usually end up siding some combination of him, Blood Moon, or Griselbrand out depending on the matchup.

hdeck12
04-17-2013, 11:18 PM
@AnthroInt: I can 't wait to hear how the bazaar goes!

A few responses to your questions...

Moon Effects ROCK in this deck, not taking damage off tomb, not losing sandstone needles or City of traitors means you rarely have to conserve resources. Something to remember, EVEN under a moon, sandstone needle still comes into play tapped...:-( With such a heavy moon build I strongly recommend chrome mox. You want to be casting it turn 1 as much as possible to turn off their opening fetch, if you lead with Tomb or City (more risky) then you need more than the 4 simian spirit guides to reliably have a red source. It also gives you an outlet to use your excess moons since one resolved is usually enough. 8 Moons, I'd probably run 3 chrome mox and one faithless looting. If you're trying to power out early moons then you can let go of a seething song. I think Igris tested the deck without seething song and said it didn't work out, but I think by adding crome moxes you could get away with only 2 or 3 songs.

Sensei's Divining Top (SDT)....You all are right, 4 is the best number. Lately I've been working on a 2 drop list with main deck chalice of the void and scroll racks as my draw engine. Bad. Scroll Rack is awesome, just not in this deck.

Cut Titan. He was a boss for a while. The format has sped up a turn over the last year, and Liliana of the veil has taken a solid hold. In corner cases he IS the best card, but too often he gives the opponent a removal target or sits in your hand while you die to a Delver. At this point, I'd rather have a lightning bolt. Something creative would be to replace him with Chaos Warps. This way you can still answer gaddock teeg, and you can warp away the one basic land they manage to find under your moon. With 4 tops you will end up with 2 quite a bit. If you have an extra top (or three bad cards on library and few turns to live) you can activate SDT's draw ability, hold priority, activate the rearrange ability, hold priority, cast chaos warp targeting top. You will warp away the extra top into a permanent (>75%), shuffle your library, rearrange the top 3, then draw a card, all at instant speed on your opponents end step. I think warp, would be a better choice, but lightning bolt/Pyroclasm would work too. Killing Teeg, Deathrite, and Delver are all important plays. Since you're trying to hit 3 mana turn 1 anyway the mana cost isn't restrictive. Warp is better against the storm decks too since high probability they won't flip a permanent. Warping a Lion's Eye Diamond in response to the first ritual is awesome!

Defense Grid...necessary in the 75. With a faster format, and more swamps beating down the islands, I have moved these to the board. I still believe in the full package of 4, but the SB is more appropriate now. At worst it'll draw out a Force of Will and blue card, at best it'll turn off your opponents entire hand.

Fatties...10 is a fine number, I think 9 with all the tops is fine too. I run 3 wurms, that number is up for debate, I wouldn't mess with the others. Many people tell me more griselbrands is better but they aren't. Without being able to draw into counterspells he gets worse. If you don't win after getting one of them in play and drawing 7-14 cards, the second one isn't going to get you there either.

From your list the changes I would make are -1 Magus (easier to answer than moon, and 8 is too many for me), -1 worldspine, -1 seething song, -1 city of traitors, -3 inferno titan, +3 chrome mox, +3chaos warp (2warp/ 1pyroclasm?) +1 Faithless looting. Unsure on 3 city of traitors, they get better with moons, I just never want more than 2. Leading with a city and getting your moon FOWed is bad :-/

SB, 4 defense Grid + 5 Graveyard hate is a good place to start. I've given up on leylines. Leyline of Sanctity is good against discard, but with all the tops, discard isn't much of a problem. If you're only using it to combat storm, 20 goblins can still attack you and there are better answers. Trinisphere to be precise, which also does a lot of work against Enter the infinite, Omniscience, and Dream Halls. Leyline of the Void is good because it's a free win against dredge, and doesn't interact with Thoughtseize or FOW against Reanimator, BUT still causes bad mulligans and dead draws. Reanimator is still the worst matchup, bring some grave hate or at least Karakas because Iona, shield of emeria will make you cry. Grafdigger's Cage is cool because it also keeps Green Sun's Zenith from finding Teeg or anything in Elves. Keep us updated on your thoughts and plans. Stompy for life!

AnthroInt
04-18-2013, 04:22 PM
Thank you all for your replies!

@Koby: I agree with you, the Sneak and Show matchup is not bad. My concern was that Inferno Titan is really not great in this matchup. I’d rather have more Pyromancy or even Looting for the possibility of finding more fatties for their Show and Tell.

@xinque: I agree that having a hardcastable threat in the mainboard is nice, but I don’t know if it’s really that necessary. Especially with more moons to buy time or even win on the spot anyway. Also more moons make Koth better. With a list with less moon-effects I had the problem, of not having a mountain in play, but a Koth. I really like the option of having a turn 2 Koth in certain matchups (especially BUG and UW Miracles). But then you have to have at least one mountain in play to make him work, right? I want at least one in my sideboard.

@hdeck12: I am aware of S. Needle comes into play tapped under a Moon. As I said, I play Dragon Stompy for many years and know about layer- and other interactions between Moon and nonbasic lands. But nonetheless thanks for the advice!

Chrome Mox: I agree, Chrome Mox would be a nice addition, for the reasons you mentioned. I would then replace 3 Inferno Titans with them. But that leads me to another concern: If you are running Chrome Mox, especially to have a turn one action, you don’t want to have too many non red cards. As I’m counting I have 14 non red cards (with no Inferno Titans: 10 (9) fatties plus 4 STD). From my experience with Dragon Stompy that’s really borderline. But I will definitely try out this configuration.

Seething Song: I’m not really sold on the cutting of any of them. Even with Chrome Mox, I think that Songs are necessary to keep up a certain tempo. Especially under a Moon, your sol-lands do not generate tempo advantage anymore. May be I cut one, as suggested, but definitely not more.

That brings me to adding Faithless Looting: With Seething Song, Chrome Mox and several moon-effects, Looting seems really good to filter and avoid redundancy. So yeah, I think I cut a Magus (although it hurts me kind of) and a Wurm and add 2 of them.

About cutting a land: I thought about this too. With SDT plus Looting and Chrome Mox I think I can afford it. But adding Chrome Mox by arguing, that it helps to play a turn one moon I find it more coherent to cut a Needle rather than a City. What do you think?

Chaos Warp: As you said, it is a creative approach and I see the upsides. I never tested it, but you convinced me somehow.

So let’s take a look at my new list:

4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Magus of the Moon
2 Griselbrand
3 Worldspine Wurm
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

2 Chaos Warp
4 Blood Moon
4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach
3 Seething Song
2 Faithless Looting
4 Sensei´s Divining Top
3 Chrome Mox

4 Mountain
2 Arid Mesa
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Sandstone Needle
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
(Now that´s 13 non red cards except of the Moxen. I think that is ok)

Sideboard:
4 defense Grid
1 Koth of the Hammer
4 Trinisphere
2 Pyroclasm
2 Grafdigger´s Cage
2 Faerie Macabre

Well, that’s it for now.
Again, thanks for your replies and keep up the good work! And yeah, Stompy for life ;)

Greetings AnthroInt

hdeck12
04-18-2013, 07:08 PM
I think cutting down a sandstone needle since you're shooting for turn one plays is a good idea. I've tried to run lists with three because in a perfect world you never want two. However sometimes I would just run out of red sources after a few counterspells. So many moons will keep that from happening.

Zeisse
04-20-2013, 08:09 PM
Sorry for my English

Today a friend and I have played a tournament of 35 players with this deck. Here are the lists of the top 8. My friend and I are of the sneak attack decks.

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10710

My pairings:

GW 2-0
UWr Miracles 2-0
Punishing zoo 2-0
Big Red (My teammate) ID
Pox 2-0
Shardless BUG 2-0

QuarterFinals
Pox 0-2


The deck is incredible and possibly I play in the big trial of the BOM.

AnthroInt
04-20-2013, 09:14 PM
Congrats Zeisse! Great to hear you did well!

A few qousetions: How was Inferno Titan for you and/or your friend? I can imagine that Titan was good vs. GW and Zoo, right? Maybe against BUG too.
Did you miss any artifact removal in the board (despite Chaos Warp, of course)?
How did Pyromancy work for you?

I would appreciate a short report!

Maybe we'll see at BOM?!

Greetings AnthroInt

Zeisse
04-21-2013, 04:03 PM
@AnthroInt

Thanks.


How was Inferno Titan for you and/or your friend? I can imagine that Titan was good vs. GW and Zoo, right? Maybe against BUG too.

The Infernal titan was fenomenal in the games against the decks you mention. LLG (Liga Legacy Gipuzkoa) is a league where Gaddock teeg are very common, so we had no doubts about playing the titans. I use it two times in the tournament and both against the zoo. My teammate also confronted the same zoo and won thanks to the titans. We decided to use the main deck of hdeck12, me cutting the petal for the 4th top and my friend for the 3rd Infernal titan.



Did you miss any artifact removal in the board (despite Chaos Warp, of course)?

I think not. There are more important things to combat with the sideboard cards. The only artifacts that bother us are Pithing needle, Pyrexian revoker and Snearing bridge. The bridges are a bit slower and you can kill the revokers with pyroclasm. I think that is enough with two Chaos warp.



How did Pyromancy work for you?

I do not use the card all day, but my friend won a game against miracles with it.


Maybe we'll see at BOM?!

Maybe. But will not be able to communicate in English. I understand everything written, but I can't speak to communicate. Right now I'm writing with a translator :tongue:



I would appreciate a short report!

Honestly always had incredible hands to win in second or third turn without much problems. Against Miracles I start with turn one and two Defense grid in both games. Vs GW I win after a pyroclasm killing Gaddock teeg.

Zupponn
04-21-2013, 06:06 PM
I remember seeing a list a while back that ran Sneak Attack along with Zirilan of the Claw and a sweet dragon package that featured Nicol Bolas. It would be interesting to try the Elder Dragon out in this deck.

xdavisx
04-22-2013, 07:02 PM
Yo hdeck12
Seems like aggro is creeping up again. Think it's time to stick titans back in?

hdeck12
04-24-2013, 03:31 PM
It would make my day to put titan back in. Unfortunately I've come to the decision he's a sideboard card. UNLESS RUg/Zoo is dominating your meta. I hate spending so many resources to get him STP-ed or Liliana-ed. And against any combo deck he's pretty useless. My meta is gross and filled with storm combo right now, so I'm barely even playing him in the board these days. Chaos Warp gets closer and closer to being my favorite red card (other than sneak attack of course) every time I cast it. Maindecking pyroclasm or volcanic fallout is feeling better to me than titan right now. The fallout is nice because it doesn't get spell pierced and can be cast through a Rishadan Port lock , but pyroclasm is sweet because a lotta storm decks slam goblins on the play and you can just sweep em up before before they kill you. For funsies sake, 3 titans is the perfect number. For competitive-sies sake, I think a miser one of in the board is about all we can afford right now :-(

He's a pretty strict metagame call and probably not perfect in a large environment. As for the SCG circuit I haven't really been following lately, but it seems like the guys in Europe are crushing with him? I find the SCG tends to be about a month or two behind these guys so hey, maybe it is time....

hdeck12
04-27-2013, 10:49 PM
@everyone: So leyline of sanctity has been in and out of SideBoards for the life of this deck. I'm trying really hard to get away from leylines. I was using it mainly to combat discard. It catches three other things that I find relevant (tendrils of agony, Jace fateseal/ultimate, lightningbolt.dec) but not as detrimental. What do you all think about Ignorant Bliss as a castable spell to fight discard?

igri_is_a_bk
04-27-2013, 11:56 PM
@everyone: So leyline of sanctity has been in and out of SideBoards for the life of this deck. I'm trying really hard to get away from leylines. I was using it mainly to combat discard. It catches three other things that I find relevant (tendrils of agony, Jace fateseal/ultimate, lightningbolt.dec) but not as detrimental. What do you all think about Ignorant Bliss as a castable spell to fight discard?

It's not good against the critical first turn discard spell, nor the second if you're on the draw. Leyline is the clear winner here.

goblinsplayer
04-29-2013, 09:20 PM
It's not good against the critical first turn discard spell, nor the second if you're on the draw. Leyline is the clear winner here.

The one drawback of leyline is that you have to have it in your hand otherwise it's uncastable

hdeck12
05-02-2013, 11:14 PM
Didn't get too much feedback on that last question. (@igri thanks for a response!, agreed, Leyline is clearly the winner given you rip one in your opening 7 and don't top deck any others. I'm trying to weigh the opportunity costs to figure out if I I can still win regularly by avoiding the turn 3/4 discard and cantriping over drawing a dead card and still being hit by that follow up discard spell)

Last question before I'm comfortable with a current list. I'm on the 4 Sensei's divining top plan and have one spot left. I'm torn between one Reforge the Soul or one Faithless Looting. Any arguments for one over the other?

whienot
05-03-2013, 12:02 AM
Last question before I'm comfortable with a current list. I'm on the 4 Sensei's divining top plan and have one spot left. I'm torn between one Reforge the Soul or one Faithless Looting. Any arguments for one over the other?

Between those choices, I'd give the nod to Faithless Looting. I've tried a singleton Reforge the Soul before, but it was never useful. Looting is relevant at more points in a game.

Depending on the rest of the deck, an additional fetchland may be better than either. Extra shuffles for SDT are always welcome and it's a buffer against landscrew.

AnthroInt
05-04-2013, 10:46 AM
Hello everyone,

I've been busy lately with work and university-stuff, so had not much time left to write here.

@Zeisse: Thanks for your replies!
@hdeck: I agree with igri_is_a_bk, Leyline seems better than Ignorant Bliss, especially against first turn or OTD second turn discard action.
Looting vs Reforge: I have not played with Reforge yet. But I really do like Lootings in this deck alongside SDT. As you know, or at least see at the last page, I've added Looting to my list. And this was mainly because of the 7-8 moon-effects I run, to support SDT under moon, when I can not fetch/shuffle anymore. Lately I've tested without Magus, but left 3 Looting in the deck and I was still very(!) happy with them. It helps to draw the combo piece you need. And it lets you shuffle by discarding Emrakul and therefore makes SDT better. Pretty obvious, but it worked really well for me. And yes, Reforge also lets you discard and shuffle, but in my experience I'm usually searching for one combo piece, either sneak-effect or fatty, sometimes but rarely fast mana in forms of Seething Song. And let my opponent draw cards with Reforge as well, does not make me feel very happy. Well, I hope that helps your considerations.

Here is the list, I've played with lately:

4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Griselbrand
3 Worldspine Wurm
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Koth of the Hammer

2 Chaos Warp
4 Blood Moon
4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach
2 Pyromancy
4 Seething Song
3 Faithless Looting
4 Sensei´s Divining Top
1 Lotus Petal

4 Mountain
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Sandstone Needle
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors

Sideboard:
4 defense Grid
3 Trinisphere
2 Pyroclasm
2 Grafdigger´s Cage
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Inferno Titan

Only a few days to BOM! I'm very curious about how the deck will perform. I welcome any suggestions!
Greetings AnthroInt

joylusa
05-05-2013, 07:58 AM
Hi every one,

This is my first post here in the source but is the first one of many of them ....XD

Firstly i have to said that i love this deck.2 month ago zeisse and me start testing a list and like he said few post before we play a nice tournament in our legacy league.

When i have more time i ll do a longer report but im just preparing our trip (zeisse me and more friends) trip to ANNECY BOOOOOOOOM!!! here we goo!!!

Well here are my paring on the last LLG tournament:

1-UW miracle -- 2-0 he was so bad player and defense grids destroy him
2-goblins ----- 2-0 i starded winning the first match. on the second game i was a bit fucked and when i have only 2 turns to do something i topdeck a wurm to hit him to 7 (after some blocks) and after that end the game with the tokens.
3-bug control---- 2-0 bloodmoons defense grids and trinispheres did a perfect job XD
4-big red (zeisse) ID we have prepare this deck together. XD
5-UWR rest in pieces 1-1 I have won first game too easy(with pyromancy.amazing card vs control). second game he played him detection sphere to my defense grid. enought time to play him humillity (fucked) and after that some pitting needle to pyromancy y try to kill him with my guides. i thought i was playing with him but i was so mistaked. the only one that was playing with the other was him. he was looking for the draw and he got it. XDXD
6-big zoo 2-1 i started with mull to 5 and he player land noble land noble quasali land eslpeth +3+3 attack for 8 attack for 8. after that i had started
getting afraid but i played a turn 1 moon and the only basic he had on hand was a mountain..XDXD montains everywhere montains everywhere....having enought time to destroy him
on last game he started with land noble land gaddok nacal 2/2 .... surpriseeeee pyroclasm!!!!!!! booooooom!!! and one turn latter sneak into emy+ wurm

TOP 8 we wanted to arrive to finals to ID and both happy(zeisse and me... anyone else.... XD

Quarter finals vs cascade bug
2-1 i dind t remeber very well this game. the only important thing on this game is that zeisse had lost vs pox (the winner)
semifinals
2-0 vs BURN on turn 2 or 3 played and sneak into emy +wurm
second game was strange. he stated bolting me for few turns. on my last turn i played an TDB to put one emy and i had destroyed all his permants. and play one trinisphere. after 5 or 7 turns he was with 2 manas and i was on 2 life. i was looking for a land because i could not use my ancientes tombs. i had found a guide and end the game.
FINAL
VS POX

1 game
end him ond turn 3
2 game
2 leylines after some smallpox and things like those he plays a liliana and started destroying my hand with a pyromancy on the board. i did an small missplay that cost me the game after some turns. we go to 1 with grislel top deck on my last turn.
3 game
leyline on the board. I had played to fast and thast why a lose the tournament. i could play sneak on turn one with out any creature apart of one titan and i prefer to play it and "LATER" that try to play the sneak... but there wasnt any after "LATER".

congratulations to the pox player

Thank you for reading and have fun

JOY

hdeck12
05-05-2013, 04:05 PM
Great job Joylusa! Magic is tough.

So I think I've decided on a singleton faithless looting over a singelton reforge the soul. I originally started working on this archetype while playing Sneak/Show. I got really sick of losing to whatever my opponent put in with Show and Tell. Reforge could have the same consequences. Faithless is also better for digging to find a gaddock teeg answer.

When I first played looting I wasn't using sensei's divining top and never wanted to pitch an emrakul because I'd lose the flashback ability of faithless. With a top in play, thats not as bad. 1 mana, cast faithless, see two cards, pitch emrakul, with the shuffle on the stack, 1 mana spin top (potentially draw a card and shuffle away an extra top if needed too) see 3 cards, let the shuffle resolve, 1 mana spin top see 3 new cards. You do lose the flashback, but for 3 mana we're still seeing 8 cards. Much better than 4 mana draw 4 discard 4.

hdeck12
05-13-2013, 02:30 PM
I'm giving up on the chrome mox build. Is anyone out there having success with them? If so whats your list. I find roughly 90% of the time, I'm pitching a spirit guide to it and then I lose the acceleration I was hoping to gain with the mox anyways. :-(

aluisiocsantos
05-13-2013, 04:09 PM
Hi there!
I just recently saw this thread.
I've been playing Sneak Attack for ages, and never the UR version, mostly because of lack of money to buy a blue suite.
I've been playing Jund right now, but until recently I used to play a RW Sneak Attack, which I call Sneak in Peace. It mostly goes like this:


//Artifacts
1x Engineered Explosives
3x Grim Monolith
2x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Trinisphere
4x Lotus Petal
2x Helm of Obedience

//Creatures
4x Griselbrand
1x Blightsteel Colossus
4x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

//Enchantments
4x Sneak Attack
4x Rest in Peace
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Blood Moon

//Instants
4x Enlightened Tutor

//Sorceries
2x Show and Tell

//Lands
1x Karakas
2x Scalding Tarn
1x Volcanic Island
4x Plateau
2x Arid Mesa
1x Plains
1x Mountain
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors

//Sideboard
4x Leyline of Santity
2x Blood Moon
1x Seal of Cleansing
4x Silence
2x Chalice of the Void
1x Volcanic Fallout
1x Ancient Grudge


It basically consists of playing as many threats as possible, being it Blood Moon or Trinisphere, or the ncombo pieces. If you have a hand with Sneak Attack and Tutor, you get Blightsteel. If you have RIP, you tutor for a helm. And so on. It has a lot of ways of comboing, and then lock pieces in the MD/SB in case you need them. Silence works better than REB most of time, and can give you extra turns vs the occasional ANT/TES player.

It's fun and I've had a little bit of success in a version without the RIP/Helm combo. This new version is a new one. Previouly I'd run it like this:

//Artifacts
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Grim Monolith
2x Chalice of the Void
2x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Trinisphere
4x Lotus Petal

//Creatures
3x Lodestone Golem
4x Griselbrand
1x Blightsteel Colossus
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

//Enchantments
4x Sneak Attack

//Instants
4x Enlightened Tutor

//Sorceries
2x Show and Tell

//Lands
1x Island
2x Scalding Tarn
1x Volcanic Island
4x Plateau
2x Arid Mesa
1x Plains
1x Mountain
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors

//Sideboard
2x Defense Grid
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Grim Monolith
1x Woodfall Primus
1x Sundering Titan
1x Blood Moon
1x Oblivion Ring
2x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
1x Volcanic Fallout


Hope you dig!

joylusa
05-15-2013, 11:39 PM
Hello guys,

Im back from BOM .. i had played both days(TRIAL and MAIN EVENT) Big red having nice results.
Im gonna do a short report because after 10-12 hours both days my brain was broken...
Trial 10 round of suize. Prizes top 32

normaly people didnt know against what they were playing exactly. Lot of people side on REB and things against S&T and that was nice.
The meta was basic: BUG (team america, agent, tempo...) Dregde, Sneak and show and Threshold
TRIAL
i arrived to the last round with a 7-2-0. If i had won that round i would win the inscription for the main event, but one guy destroyed me with a 4 colour threshold..... fuckeeeeeed!"!!!! (DRS mangoose stifle daze tarmo fow waste.....) everythiiiiiing!!! he starts with taiga DRS i played a turn one Sneak... FORCEEEEE OF WILL ........ owned and after that both games went same. nothing to do and keeping me out of prizes.

MAIN EVENT

I had 1 bye. second round i had draw aginst miracles and then i starde having good game until round 5. i was 4-0-1. On this round i was playing against TES i won the first game. On the second game i was nearly death and my oponent started with the storm. 2 spell and he played dark ritu dark ritu and third ritual with 2 more card in and. he said 7 mana in pool. i said ok and he had notice he do a mistake and he tryed to do everything again. he tryed to convice me he only had played 2 rituals and i called the judge. He started feinging a lie and afters 20 minutes the head judge gave him a DQ and a possibility of got banned.

Next round i lost against BUG...on the next round i played again with the guy who destroyed me on trial with 4 color ******** and he had done it again. Same guy throw me of both tournaments.... holly shit!!! XD

i played 1 more round and won and after that i dropped....... ending with a nice 5-2-1(place 135 more less)

regards and sorry for my english..XD i know i have to improved it

Joy

joylusa
05-15-2013, 11:44 PM
Hello everyone,

I've been busy lately with work and university-stuff, so had not much time left to write here.

@Zeisse: Thanks for your replies!
@hdeck: I agree with igri_is_a_bk, Leyline seems better than Ignorant Bliss, especially against first turn or OTD second turn discard action.
Looting vs Reforge: I have not played with Reforge yet. But I really do like Lootings in this deck alongside SDT. As you know, or at least see at the last page, I've added Looting to my list. And this was mainly because of the 7-8 moon-effects I run, to support SDT under moon, when I can not fetch/shuffle anymore. Lately I've tested without Magus, but left 3 Looting in the deck and I was still very(!) happy with them. It helps to draw the combo piece you need. And it lets you shuffle by discarding Emrakul and therefore makes SDT better. Pretty obvious, but it worked really well for me. And yes, Reforge also lets you discard and shuffle, but in my experience I'm usually searching for one combo piece, either sneak-effect or fatty, sometimes but rarely fast mana in forms of Seething Song. And let my opponent draw cards with Reforge as well, does not make me feel very happy. Well, I hope that helps your considerations.

Here is the list, I've played with lately:

4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Griselbrand
3 Worldspine Wurm
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Koth of the Hammer

2 Chaos Warp
4 Blood Moon
4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach
2 Pyromancy
4 Seething Song
3 Faithless Looting
4 Sensei´s Divining Top
1 Lotus Petal

4 Mountain
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Sandstone Needle
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors

Sideboard:
4 defense Grid
3 Trinisphere
2 Pyroclasm
2 Grafdigger´s Cage
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Inferno Titan

Only a few days to BOM! I'm very curious about how the deck will perform. I welcome any suggestions!
Greetings AnthroInt

I have forget to tell you about the list i played.

On the trail i played AnthroInt´s list and it was fine but i was not sure about 3 Faithless Looting and next day i had change the list playing main defense grids.
regards

phoenix4
05-28-2013, 07:44 AM
Seems like you guys aren't going for the biggest swing :D

A friend of mine played this deck for a couple of months back in 2 regular tourneys and went 4-2 and 5-1 in a 6 rounds swiss...
Later i traded the cards, since i'm being a red player by heart :D

We brainstormed a little, and we've come up with this:

Creatures:
4x Worldspine Wurm
4x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2x Griselbrand
4x Simian Spirit Guide

Enchantments:
4x Sneak Attack
3x Pyromancy

Instants:
4x Seething Song
4x Through the Breach

Sorceries:
1x Gamble

Artifacts:
3x Lotus Petal
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere

Lands:
4x Mountains
4x Arid Mesa
4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
3x Sandstone Needle

Sideboard:
4x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Stronghold Gambit
3x Pithing Needle
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Defense Grid

I'm either going for the BIG swing turn 1 or 2 or playing lockdown :D
This deck is AWESOME!! :D

Last friday, i hit my OP for 37 on turn 1.. Ancient Tomb, SSG, Seething Song, Sneak Attack, Griselbrand into play, draw 14, Lotus Petal and SSG for double W-Wurm, SMÅKAGE :D

I'd have to say, that my local meta is full of combo these days, and if there's a SB card, that makes up for this... Then it's Stronghold Gambit! It's an insane motherfucker vs. Storm :D

Regarding the Leyline discussion.. Mulligan for it, 'cause you always have more gas on hand :D At least in my case :)

And again... Trinisphere or Chalice @1.... If you have it on your starting hand and can play it, do it... It draws a FoW and that can win you games! :D

Just my 2 cents, throw me a bone on what i can do to improve the deck? ;)

hdeck12
05-30-2013, 09:24 PM
@Phoenix: Glad we found another supporter! As for your list, a couple things....

Gamble: I struggle with this card. I've seen a lot of players try to jam it. In theory its a great tutor, in practice it's usually a coin flip or slightly better that you get to keep what you need. Faithless looting does a lot of work, but gets stuffed by chalice too. Neither net you any cards but with faithless you at least get to choose what you pitch. If you're looking for a late game hail mary, reforge will find you whatever you're looking for. I guess I'm just never holding a large enough grip to "gamble" on a random discard. You might keep what you tutored for, but losing a different combo piece happens too :-/.

Trinisphere X4: Thats a lotta trinishperes. They get really bad in multiples. If you're fighting through storm all day, I'm sure it's great. In an open meta, it seems like a lot, especially with 8 other nombo cards. Let me know how they do for you against non storm decks. I've gone back and fourth on playing this card more than any other in the iterations of lists.

Arid Mesa: Without Sensei's Top you have no use for a shuffle effect. Might as well be basics. Sure you can thin your deck by a card for a life, but then you open yourself to stifle and some other things. Not a good enough trade.

Pithing Needle: What do you need to shut off?




@Everyone else: glad to hear the Bazaar of Moxen didn't go terribly, I was really hoping to see you in top 8. I took some time off from Big Red and am way outta practice. Hopin to make it to SCG Philly with my mountains.

kingtk3
05-31-2013, 05:50 AM
Hi to all,
yesterday I split the finals of a small tournament (10 person) playing this list:

4 sensei's divining top
4 simian spirit guide
3 griselbrand
3 worldspine wurm
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 inferno titan
4 blood moon
4 sneak attack
3 chaos warp
4 seething song
4 through the breach
2 koth of the hammer

5 mountain
4 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
3 sandstone needle
4 wooded foothills
1 arid mesa

SIDE
3 trinisphere
3 defense grid
2 red elemental blast
3 pyroclasm
2 grafdigger's cage
1 faerie macabre
1 dismember


Round 1 vs elf
Game 1 I through the breach a Wurm on second turn and he scoops after asking me if the tokens have trample
Game 2 we both mull to 5 and I keep a landless hand because I have double simian, seething song, sneak attack and wurm. He has a slow hand too and cannot do much before I find a land.
1-0

Round 2 vs RUG
I'm too slow for his delver+mongoose+fow+double bolt. He fowed my threat and I couldn't find something relevant
Game 2 I tried to drop a defense grid, a blood moon and a sneak attack: all gets countered and I lose to a fast clock
1-1

Round 3 vs Omnihalls
Game 1 he's forced to fow a SA and a TtB, losing his combo in the process. Inferno Titan finishes him before he could go off
Game 2 I drop double defense grid (one gets countered) and a trinisphere, but i'm left with only top and 2 lands with chaos warp, griselbrand and wurm on top of the deck. He's fearing that I'm about to go off so plays S&T, which I use to drop the Wurm. His omniscence is stopped by trinisphere and the wurm is faster
2-1

Round 4 vs Jund
I won the die roll: tomb, simian, seething, TtB, Wurm, GG
Game 2 I'm sculpting my hand with top but a topdecked hymn + liliana kill my game despite having played blood moon (after those 2)
Game 3 he plays DRS + Bob, I pyroclasm, he plays another Bob, I play 2 Inferno Titan in the next 2 turns

Semifinals vs RUG (same opponent of round2)
He's very unlucky since he mulls to 4 and concedes when I drop blood moon on my first turn
Game 2 he wins thanks to a fast clock + spell pierce and fow
Game 3 I mull to 5 (no lands before) to keep a simian, reb, seething, mountain, blood moon hand. I play mountain, go. He plays volcanic island, go. I top deck another mountain, drop it and go (I want my reb to by live). In his turn, before playing land, he brainstorms, which I reb; he plays a land and passes. I draw a wurm and decide to play bllod moon: he brainstorms again and fow it. He drops delver and mongoose. I draw sneak attack and pass. He attacks me for 6 plus a bolt. I draw a simian and try to go off with seething but he stifles my activation. He attacks me for 6 leaving me at 5. I draw emrakul and drop both him and wurm for 30 damage. That was close.

Finals vs Jund (same player of round 4)
We agree to split because it's already late.

I didn't test very much but I think faithless looting isn't good in this deck because it's card disadvantage and we need almost all of our resources to make our plays, especially against counter-decks.
Koth didn't show so I cannot say if he's good, but I want to play it so he'll stay.
Chaos warp will stay because it may be another shuffle effect when I have a top and it's a catch all that deals with teeg too

Comments are appreciated.

hdeck12
05-31-2013, 02:56 PM
@kingtk: Sweeeeeeeet! Nothing like 30 damage out of two mountains to close out a match! Can't wait to get more info on Koth, haven't tried him yet. I agree about faithless, it's a terrible digger, especially when you have a top in play. Unfortunately in red, our shovels are limited. Whats your argument for dismember? I'm assuming an answer to teeg/thalia/delver/bob? But if your argument for dismember over bolt is using colorless, chances are you're taking 2 from tomb as well, and 6 points seems like a lot to give up in the aggro match. Seems like one red would be more affordable than 6 life?

@All: When I first started playing this, my favorite opponent reaction was when I played sandstone needle "wait, what, I need to to read that?" It has very quickly become "wait...the tokens have trample too? ::opponent scoops up board::"!

kingtk3
05-31-2013, 10:03 PM
@kingtk: Sweeeeeeeet! Nothing like 30 damage out of two mountains to close out a match! Can't wait to get more info on Koth, haven't tried him yet. I agree about faithless, it's a terrible digger, especially when you have a top in play. Unfortunately in red, our shovels are limited. Whats your argument for dismember? I'm assuming an answer to teeg/thalia/delver/bob? But if your argument for dismember over bolt is using colorless, chances are you're taking 2 from tomb as well, and 6 points seems like a lot to give up in the aggro match. Seems like one red would be more affordable than 6 life?

@All: When I first started playing this, my favorite opponent reaction was when I played sandstone needle "wait, what, I need to to read that?" It has very quickly become "wait...the tokens have trample too? ::opponent scoops up board::"!

About faithless: I agree that in red we cannot find a good way to manipulate the deck or a decent draw engine, but I think the answer is to maximize the numbers of the cards we play (or their equivalent, like simian and lotus petal) in order to add consistency. If I were to I would try reforge the soul or crystal ball before faithless.

About Koth: I like that it's a win condition by himself rather than pyromancy which needs a fatty in hand much like Sneak Attack. Moreover if you reach 8 mountain you can hardcast Emrakul using Koth second ability: sometimes the game goes for long (especially with 4 blood moon) and it's possible to reach 8 mountain.

About Dismember: I had one empty slot in side and didn't want to think about it a lot, so I opted for dismember: certanly bolt or pyroclasm are better in this deck... ^_^'''

One thing I forgot to say before but that is very important is that the deck is a blast to play!!!!! Few things left you more satisfied than beating people with 15/15 and playing blood moon!

Darkenslight
06-01-2013, 02:50 AM
How useful is a singleton Sundering Titan in the deck? I get the sneaking suspicion that it's an absolute beating against RUG and BUG, and it doesn't even have to be main.

kingtk3
06-01-2013, 02:53 PM
How useful is a singleton Sundering Titan in the deck? I get the sneaking suspicion that it's an absolute beating against RUG and BUG, and it doesn't even have to be main.

I like the card too, but I don't think it belongs here because:

it's not synergic with blood moon (which is one of the best cards against RUG and BUG)
you can only play it via SA or TtB, but if you are able to resolve one of those against RUG or BUG it means you have a chance at winning and you should drop something bigger

hdeck12
06-06-2013, 12:44 AM
Agree with KingTk: great idea, bad execution. The RUg and BUg matchups are about resolving a sneak effect, any of the current targets will win the game if you manage to resolve one. If you want to add threats for either matchup, wurmcoil is your best bet. Lifelink vs RUg, 3 cards to deal with it vs BUg. If you wanna blow people out with turn 2/3 sundering titan, play Birthing Pod + artifacts + Myr Enforcer...props Doug McKay.

joylusa
06-07-2013, 05:30 PM
@kingtk: Sweeeeeeeet! Nothing like 30 damage out of two mountains to close out a match! Can't wait to get more info on Koth, haven't tried him yet. I agree about faithless, it's a terrible digger, especially when you have a top in play. Unfortunately in red, our shovels are limited. Whats your argument for dismember? I'm assuming an answer to teeg/thalia/delver/bob? But if your argument for dismember over bolt is using colorless, chances are you're taking 2 from tomb as well, and 6 points seems like a lot to give up in the aggro match. Seems like one red would be more affordable than 6 life?

@All: When I first started playing this, my favorite opponent reaction was when I played sandstone needle "wait, what, I need to to read that?" It has very quickly become "wait...the tokens have trample too? ::opponent scoops up board::"!


XDXDXD i love that reaction !!! when the opponet see the sandstone and says but it enter tapped?¿?¿? yes sure!!! be carefull on your next turn bro!!!
and then happens what @hdeck12 says.... 15/15 trample..OK! 3 tokens with trample aggre¿? WITH TRAMPLE!!!!! XDXDXD

On the BOM trial i had played the list with 1 koth and faithless. in my opinion koth could be dangerous against sword to plowshares and removal liko those that can let you with out lands, and looting i think is difficult to play. drawing 2 cards is so fun the problems comes when you have to discard. if you have crap in hand its nice card so i think the deck is better with out any of two cards. im just preparing a new big red list changing few cards getting better the paring against control decks.
I ll post it to see what you think about my little monster!! XD

have fun

hdeck12
06-10-2013, 09:01 PM
Has anyone done any serious testing against the Omni-Hall deck that won BOM? I imagine it's a pretty terrible matchup but I haven't been able to find time with my teammates to figure it out yet. I've been back and fourth on trinisphere for a while but if that deck wins over a bunch of sneak show players I think a set will be necessary. Any other ideas on beating this monstrosity with Mountains? What does everyone think about Word of Seizing? It could steal Laboratory Maniac for an instant win or omniscience to buy a turn if they go with the Release the Ants play. It could also steal a Jace or Liliana to ultimate their owner, how much fun would THAT be! In a long game it it could help deal with hate cards? Thoughts, other ideas?
-H

hdeck12
06-10-2013, 09:22 PM
I guess that wouldn't be an instant win or an extra turn, taking lab man they could just counter their own brainstorm and taking omniscience they could just wait and brainstorm on our upkeep :-(. I don't see sudden shock being good enough in any other match up. Maybe its just time to fill the board with REBs?

kingtk3
06-11-2013, 04:44 AM
Has anyone done any serious testing against the Omni-Hall deck that won BOM? I imagine it's a pretty terrible matchup but I haven't been able to find time with my teammates to figure it out yet. I've been back and fourth on trinisphere for a while but if that deck wins over a bunch of sneak show players I think a set will be necessary. Any other ideas on beating this monstrosity with Mountains? What does everyone think about Word of Seizing? It could steal Laboratory Maniac for an instant win or omniscience to buy a turn if they go with the Release the Ants play. It could also steal a Jace or Liliana to ultimate their owner, how much fun would THAT be! In a long game it it could help deal with hate cards? Thoughts, other ideas?
-H

I haven't tested very much but this are my conclusions based on my esperience with both decks

BE FASTER
Omnihall is very consistent but it's not the fastest combo out there. We can occasionally win a turn before them tanks to our acceleration. Omnihalls being basically a 3-card combo deck works in our favor because if they want/need to stop us the will use FoW, pitching cards they probably need to go off: Omnihalls is a very card hungry deck.

PLAY SOME RESISTOR
Trinisphere literally stops this deck from winning with release the ants; even winning through maniac is much slower and gives us time to kill them. Moreover, if they cannot win on the spot show and tell become OUR best card because we will cheat into play something they probably cannot handle.

PLAY SOME DEFENSE, BUT SOME OFFENSE TOO
Defense grid is wonderful because it blanks their counters, but it's only relevant if we play something that they can't ingnore. So I feel it's correct to side in some REBs too because they could disrupt their plan AND can be used to protect our threats too.

My last tournament I sided in 3 defense grid, 3 trinisphere and 2 REBs for 4 blood moon, 2 koth and 2 chaos warp and won because after I landed a trinisphere my opponent played a Show and Tell allowing me to cheat a wurm on the field and he hadn't enough mana to play all the spells he needed before I killed him. I was lucky too, because I drew defense grid and trinisphere.

If I were to play this deck in a omnihalls field I would up the trinisphere to 4 and include something like chalice of the void or thorn of amethist or more rebs

Darkenslight
06-11-2013, 03:45 PM
Isn't Pyrostatic Pillar an autowin against the Release killcon from Onmitell?

-Spooky-
06-11-2013, 03:51 PM
Isn't Pyrostatic Pillar an autowin against the Release killcon from Onmitell?

Nope, they have multiple answers to it that they can pull off after the initial combo (drawing their whole deck). Bounces are the most common, but when youc an play any spell for free you just need to take your pick as far as what wish targets you want to grab.

joylusa
06-16-2013, 07:21 AM
Has anyone done any serious testing against the Omni-Hall deck that won BOM? I imagine it's a pretty terrible matchup but I haven't been able to find time with my teammates to figure it out yet. I've been back and fourth on trinisphere for a while but if that deck wins over a bunch of sneak show players I think a set will be necessary. Any other ideas on beating this monstrosity with Mountains? What does everyone think about Word of Seizing? It could steal Laboratory Maniac for an instant win or omniscience to buy a turn if they go with the Release the Ants play. It could also steal a Jace or Liliana to ultimate their owner, how much fun would THAT be! In a long game it it could help deal with hate cards? Thoughts, other ideas?
-H

Hello every one

in my opinion we have vantage against omnidreams... they only has 4 fow to protect to our turn 1,2,3 combo. of course they can win fast too, but is not normal in this version.
besides im just playing a new list with a 4 REB side removing triniespheres, otherwise i have thought about playing word of seizing and seems that is a good slot against lot of cards so i will test it and i will post my inpressions.

Here is my last list, i have not played any tournament yet with this list but testing friends with different decks looks nice.

4 top
4 sneak attack
4 trhought the breach
4 siminan spirit guide
4 emrakul
3 griselbrand
3 wurm
2 chaos warp
4 seething song
2 pyromancy
1 lotus petal
4 blood moon
3 defense grid
5 fetch
4 mountain
3 sandstone needle
4 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors

side

4 leyline of sanctity
2 pyroclasm
1 volcanic fallout
2 pyroblast
2 REB
2 fairy macabre
2 grafsdigger cage

i wanna try to play -1 volvanic fallout -1 REB +

glad to take your views

joy

joylusa
06-16-2013, 07:29 AM
Has anyone done any serious testing against the Omni-Hall deck that won BOM? I imagine it's a pretty terrible matchup but I haven't been able to find time with my teammates to figure it out yet. I've been back and fourth on trinisphere for a while but if that deck wins over a bunch of sneak show players I think a set will be necessary. Any other ideas on beating this monstrosity with Mountains? What does everyone think about Word of Seizing? It could steal Laboratory Maniac for an instant win or omniscience to buy a turn if they go with the Release the Ants play. It could also steal a Jace or Liliana to ultimate their owner, how much fun would THAT be! In a long game it it could help deal with hate cards? Thoughts, other ideas?
-H

Hello every one

in my opinion we have vantage against omnidreams... they only has 4 fow to protect to our turn 1,2,3 combo. of course they can win fast too, but is not normal in this version.
besides im just playing a new list with a 4 REB side removing triniespheres, otherwise i have thought about playing word of seizing and seems that is a good slot against lot of cards so i will test it and i will post my inpressions.

Here is my last list, i have not played any tournament yet with this list but testing friends with different decks looks nice.

4 top
4 sneak attack
4 trhought the breach
4 siminan spirit guide
4 emrakul
3 griselbrand
3 wurm
2 chaos warp
4 seething song
2 pyromancy
1 lotus petal
4 blood moon
3 defense grid
5 fetch
4 mountain
3 sandstone needle
4 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors

side

4 leyline of sanctity
2 pyroclasm
1 volcanic fallout
2 pyroblast
2 REB
2 fairy macabre
2 grafsdigger cage

i wanna try to play -1 volvanic fallout -1 REB + 2 word of seizing

glad to take your views

joy

xdavisx
06-16-2013, 09:08 PM
I participated in a TCG player bronze event today. It's been awhile since I've played, so my list might be a bit outdated. I made top 4 and we decided to chop the prizes. Here's a quick summary from what I can recall.


4 emakrul eons torn
4 blightsteel colossus
3 griselbrand
2 worldspine wurm
1 inferno titan
4 simian spirit guide

4 sneak attack
4 through the breach
4 seething song
3 defense grid
2 sensei's divining top
3 blood moon
2 pyromancy
1 lotus petal

4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
4 sandstone needle
2 bloodstained mire
1 wooded foothills
5 mountain

Sideboard
2 koth of the hammer
1 defense grid
1 chaos warp
2 volcanic fallout
1 blood moon
3 trinisphere
1 chalice of the void
2 pyroblast
2 other cards I can't remember


Round 1 - b/w deadguy

This match went by pretty quick. I resolved a turn 2 blood moon both games and he conceded almost on the spot.
2-0

Round 2 - u/w countertop

He starts out game 1 with a mulligan into turn one top. I start with a sandstone needle. My opponent plays a counterbalance and passes. On my turn, I seething song into a pyromancy to play around a daze (it's been awhile but I recall some lists packing it). He lets pyromancy resolve. He lays a land and passes the turn. He cliques me in my draw step and I reveal ancient tomb, griselbrand, blightsteel and worldspine wurm and sneak attack. He tucks the sneak attack. I kill him off with pyromancy the next two turns.
Game two, I bring in pyromancy, blood moon and koth. He starts off with another mulligan into two basic land drops and a top. While he was tapped out, I turn 2 through the breach an emakrul to knock him to off his basics. He misses land drops and I resolve another through the breach a couple of turns later and emakrul finishes him off.
2-0

Round 3 - dredge

Not much to say here. I mulligan both games and die promptly on turn 2, games 1 and 2.
0-2

Round 4 - storm
This match went kinda quick. He starts off with a volcanic island into ponder. I play a sandstone needle. He plays another ponder and drops underground sea. I resolve blood moon, we play draw go til I resolve a through the breach with a blightsteel.
Game 2 he leads with a land into ponder. I resolve a turn 1 trinisphere followed by a blood moon. We proceed to play draw go again until I hit 5 mana for through the breach into worldspine wurm.
2-0

We decided to chop the prize so we could leave early but the top 4 consisted of all combo. It was made up of dredge, belcher, tin fins and ME with shitters.

Lemme know whats good.

kingtk3
06-17-2013, 04:22 AM
I participated in a TCG player bronze event today. It's been awhile since I've played, so my list might be a bit outdated. I made top 4 and we decided to chop the prizes. Here's a quick summary from what I can recall.


4 emakrul eons torn
4 blightsteel colossus
3 griselbrand
2 worldspine wurm
1 inferno titan
4 simian spirit guide

4 sneak attack
4 through the breach
4 seething song
3 defense grid
2 sensei's divining top
3 blood moon
2 pyromancy
1 lotus petal

4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
4 sandstone needle
2 bloodstained mire
1 wooded foothills
5 mountain

Sideboard
2 koth of the hammer
1 defense grid
1 chaos warp
2 volcanic fallout
1 blood moon
3 trinisphere
1 chalice of the void
2 pyroblast
2 other cards I can't remember
...

Lemme know whats good.

'Gratz on your finish!
I like the way you add more threats to the deck while lowering the top's count: after all if you have more business is easier to draw one.

What I don't like are the blightsteels because they are not synergic with the rest of the deck: it's your only source of infect and if the opponent would manage to drop a x/2 creature you'll need another colossus or the first one would have been ineffective.

I would try to fit more wurms because I think they are almost ever the best thing you can drop off a TtB because of it's die ability.

Koby
06-17-2013, 08:51 AM
I built a version of Big Red for my friend to play while he does a casual tour of Legacy tournaments. He casually goes 4-0 in a weekly event, then top 8s a larger event aat 3-1-1 with barely knowing what the cards do! Haha

I will post the deck later as I'm on my phone. Trinisphere in the SB is very very good and needs to be a 4 of

kingtk3
06-17-2013, 09:31 AM
I built a version of Big Red for my friend to play while he does a casual tour of Legacy tournaments. He casually goes 4-0 in a weekly event, then top 8s a larger event aat 3-1-1 with barely knowing what the cards do! Haha

I will post the deck later as I'm on my phone. Trinisphere in the SB is very very good and needs to be a 4 of

Agree on trinisphere: it just wrecks any combo deck except Big Red, whose only spell under 3 is top.

I'd love to see your list.

This deck is one of the funniest I've played in the last months: smashing people faces with 15/15 while being able of turn 1 powerful play like Blood Moon or trinisphere? It's like playing the monster deck I had when I was fourteen but not scrubbing against optimized meta decks.

xdavisx
06-17-2013, 11:50 AM
@kingtk3
I know the general consensus over past 6 months or so is that blightsteel doesn't belong in the deck. While I agree on some of the arguments, I'm also a firm believer that you can't underestimate the deck's possibility of free wins. It helps race combo while giving some extra beef for pyromancy. The blightsteel has always been good to me.

hdeck12
06-17-2013, 12:58 PM
Congrats to everyone stomping face with just mountains!

Anyone else heading to SCG open in Philly this weekend?

Updates on deck construction (I haven't settled on a list but these are the thoughts I'm processing this week and hoping to evaluate before friday)
1. Griselbrand, 3/60.
2. Trinisphere, 4/75
3. Inferno Titan or Sudden Shock, 1/75.
4. Chalice/Defense Grid, Awesome because they cost 2, Moon/Trinishpere, way better in the current meta, but cost 3 :-/....math is hard!
5. 4th sandstone vs 3rd city of traitors, depends on where numbers 4 and 6 land.
6. Karakas still seems good, new rules will change that, also depends on the moon count.
7. No one has convinced me Koth is good enough yet. Has anyone actually won a game with him?
8. REBS/Pyroblasts will most likely take the place of All chalices and X Defense grids.
9. I want to fit in a Word of Seizing but it might be too greedy or "too cute"
10. Some combination of top/faithless probably 5/60, maybe 6/60.

Happy smashing
-H

xdavisx
06-17-2013, 02:00 PM
I have yet to resolve a koth but I like it in theory against u/w/x decks. The more I think about it, the more i like words of seizing. I can see scenarios where it can just steal games against the problem match ups.

Koby
06-17-2013, 04:12 PM
OK, now that I'm at a desktop, here's the list I built for my friend:


Mana [27]
5 Mountain
5 fetchland
4 Sandstone Needle
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Seething Song
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Fatties [14]
4 Emrakul the Aeons Torn
4 Worldspine Wurm
3 Griselbrand
3 Inferno Titan

Digging [5]
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Faithless Looting

Etc [6]
4 Blood Moon
2 Koth of the Hammer

Being Sneaky [8]
4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach

Sideboard [15]
3 Trinisphere
3 Chalice of the Void
3 REB/Pyro
2 Pyroclasm
4 Grafdigger's Cage

One change I would make going forward is -1 Chalice +1 Trinisphere; possibly less Cages and more Pyroclasm.

joylusa
06-18-2013, 05:18 AM
OK, now that I'm at a desktop, here's the list I built for my friend:


Mana [27]
5 Mountain
5 fetchland
4 Sandstone Needle
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Seething Song
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Fatties [14]
4 Emrakul the Aeons Torn
4 Worldspine Wurm
3 Griselbrand
3 Inferno Titan

Digging [5]
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Faithless Looting

Etc [6]
4 Blood Moon
2 Koth of the Hammer

Being Sneaky [8]
4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach

Sideboard [15]
3 Trinisphere
3 Chalice of the Void
3 REB/Pyro
2 Pyroclasm
4 Grafdigger's Cage

One change I would make going forward is -1 Chalice +1 Trinisphere; possibly less Cages and more Pyroclasm.


hello
i had played one list looks very similar to this on Bom 7 and also i saw you playing first day sneky and tin fins on main even.
i played with 4 leylines of sanctity. they are fantastic if you draw one in your first hand, if not those are 4 dead cards in your deck. i have an small tournament this weekend, i know im going to play big red but dont know what list, so im open to your opinions.

i think 2 pyroclasm and 3 titan is enought agains creatures. i play 2 grafddiger and 2 macabres agains grave and in my opinion this deck have to play alwais at least 2 chaos warp. im agree with @hdeck12 i like better pyromancy than koth. against control decks your mountans can eat some sword to plow that leave you with out of lands.
i want to test word of seazing, could be fine stealing a jace with 13 counters or a creature to end the game. Desfense grid is quite good card against control decks, one time you played the grid you can cast everything or attack with a wurm fearless to sword to plow.

sorry for my spelling errors i know i have to inprove my english...XDXD that happens when you live in spain..XDXD

joy

xdavisx
06-18-2013, 10:58 PM
@Hdeck12 Best of luck this weekend. You gonna be at the legacy gp this fall in D.C.? The eternal weekend in Philly? We need a big red takeover.

hdeck12
06-18-2013, 11:12 PM
@xdavisx: Thanks! And yep, 100% on GP DC...like 90% on Philly. If 4 hours is short enough to catch an SCG though, I can't imagine why I'd skip championships.

Koby
06-18-2013, 11:16 PM
I wasn't sure when the discussion happened, but are we on Koth or Pyromancy right now? I understand the former is better vs Control for inevitability, but the immediateness of discarding a fattie to Pyromancy is great against a lot of decks. The only issue I have with Pyromancy is the mana cost to activate.

hdeck12
06-19-2013, 09:25 AM
I'm on pyromancy maindeck. Against control, losing mountains to removal seems bad, a 4/5 goyf still shuts down koth. If he's is in the 75, he's gotta be in the board for when their enchantment removal comes in and their creature removal goes out. I see potential in the board though. I usually take out seething song vs FOW so having the ability to ramp after burning through some sandstone counters late game would help. He combos well with blood moon but I feel like if we resolve a moon against the decks we want to, the game is over anyways?

hdeck12
06-19-2013, 11:28 AM
Rough draft going into this weekend...

4 Sneak Attack
4 Through The Breach
2 Pyromancy

4 Emrakul, The Aeons Torn
3 Griselbrand
3 Worldspine Wurm
1 Inferno Titan

4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Faithless Looting

2 Blood Moon
3 Trinisphere

4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Sandstone Needle
4 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Karakas
1 lotus petal
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Seething Song

//SB
3 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Pyroclasm
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroblast
1 Trinisphere
1 Koth of The Hammer
1 Word of Seizing
1 Inferno Titan


Things I may change depending on how my board plan works out
Main Deck
-1 Top or -1 Faithless / +1 ???
-2 Moon (to board) / +2 ???
-1 Petal / +1 Fetch or Karakas
SB
-1 Titan / +1 ???
-1 Word / +1 ???
+1 Karakas / -1 ???
+ 2 Moon / - 2 ???
All thoughts and opinions welcome. I'm trusting you guys on the Koth Shenanigans since I haven't tested it, but crowd sourcing seems to be a money maker these days.
-H

Countertoplol
06-19-2013, 10:04 PM
I wasn't sure when the discussion happened, but are we on Koth or Pyromancy right now? I understand the former is better vs Control for inevitability, but the immediateness of discarding a fattie to Pyromancy is great against a lot of decks. The only issue I have with Pyromancy is the mana cost to activate.

I personally have won a lot more games off of pyromancy than I have with Koth, so I run pyromancy.

kingtk3
06-21-2013, 07:20 AM
OK, now that I'm at a desktop, here's the list I built for my friend:


Mana [27]
5 Mountain
5 fetchland
4 Sandstone Needle
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Seething Song
4 Simian Spirit Guide

Fatties [14]
4 Emrakul the Aeons Torn
4 Worldspine Wurm
3 Griselbrand
3 Inferno Titan

Digging [5]
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Faithless Looting

Etc [6]
4 Blood Moon
2 Koth of the Hammer

Being Sneaky [8]
4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach

Sideboard [15]
3 Trinisphere
3 Chalice of the Void
3 REB/Pyro
2 Pyroclasm
4 Grafdigger's Cage

One change I would make going forward is -1 Chalice +1 Trinisphere; possibly less Cages and more Pyroclasm.

I play a basically same maindeck: only changes are -1 faithless looting, -1 inferno titan, +2 chaos warp.
I agree that trinisphere has to be a 4 of. If you want to keep CoVs in side you could switch the cages with faerie macabre in order to bring both against reanimator. Moreover faerie is good because it can only be stifled.
However Cage is good against NO and GSZ too, so I can see it in a meta full of elves and mavericks.

Regarding Koth vs Pyromancy
I've played only with Koth till now so I may luck experience with Pyromancy: I like koth because it's an alternative win condition on its own while pyromancy is yet but another enable for the fatties, likewise SA and TtB, but with a major activation cost.
I think that Pyromancy adds redundancy to the deck while Koth gives another angle of attack; I don't know which is overall better but there are certainly situations where one is better that the other.

@hdeck12: good luck for your tournament!!!

hdeck12
06-24-2013, 09:23 PM
Didn’t do as well as I was hoping. Had tons of fun, won my entry fee back, and got to watch a few legacy experts make the “UGH, why can’t I figure out what he’s doing” face until it was too late for them. So I’ve really got nothing to complain about.
Finished 51 out of 200 something. Went 5-3 over 8 rounds. Tried to take as good notes as possible, Sorry to my opponents if I got anything wrong. I feel like I misplayed twice on the day and in combo legacy the room for error is so small it could be blamed for two of my match losses. The third I had a winning position on the board, and my opponent had about a 20% chance of topdecking his out and he did. Despite my poor finish I still believe in the deck and have lost no faith in it whatsoever. Ok, onto decklist I settled on the night before

4 mountain
4 scalding tarn
4 ancient tomb
4 sandstone needle
2 city of traitors
1 karakas

4 simian spirit guide
4 seething song
1 lotus petal

2 faithless looting
3 sensei’s divining top

4 sneak attack
4 through the breach
2 pyromancy

4 emrakul, the aeons torn
3 worldspine wurm
3 griselbrand
1 inferno titan

3 trinisphere
2 blood moon
1 chaos warp

//SB
1 trinisphere
1 karakas
2 grafdigger's cage
3 pyroblast
2 red elemental blast
3 pyroclasm
1 inferno titan
1 koth of the hammer
1 chaos warp


On to the report, I will try to keep it to relevant information. If you have any questions about decisions or scenarios feel free to ask and I’ll do my best to recall my reasoning.

Round 1 Drew Levin (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/archive.php?Article=Drew%20Levin) with OmniHalls
This match didn’t seem as bad as I originally thought it was. Packed Trinishperes main deck and was paired against Omni first round of the tournament, looking to be a good day. Unfortunately I didn’t see any.
Game 1 I mul to 5 on the play. He force of wills my turn 2 or 3 through the breach. His turn three is show & tellomniEnter the Infinite. This is where it got fun. He wishes for release the ants, I have a chance depending on his list. He casts Release and I WIN THE CLASH (https://twitter.com/drewlevin/status/348813800956383232)! Emrakul on top. Unfortunately he has emrakul on top too, casts another enter the infinite, casts emrakul. I have karakas in play but bouncing it just gives him a third turn in a row
Game 2 His turn one 1 probe reveals my super sweet hand. My turn 3 song runs into a FOW…good thing my spirit guide pitchs to REB it. I resolve TTB emrakul and dome him for 15 and two lands. I have 2 turns to draw another sneak effect. I don’t get there before he casts show and tell, but I have lots of outs. I put in griselbrand. Draw 14, hope for multiple red blasts, see nothing but a chaos warp. I warp his Omni in response to his enter the infinite. It resolves, he shuffles up, presents for me to cut, in good fashion I smile and tap the top without cutting. He flips the top card, and it’s none other than….Omni.
Record 0-1
Maybe playing the Griselbrand with the first through the breach was more correct here, cause I woulda had 7 more cards after swinging. However, I would have been tapped out when he went for turn 3 show and tell. Choice was 21 cards to hit 2 Blasts and 2 Guides (expecting he had a Pact) or 14 cards to hit 2 blasts. Without protection its 21 cards to hit Blast AND Guide, or 14 cards to hit blast OR warp. Well I hit warp, but he hit his approximately 8/40 out. Do the math if you disagree.

Round 2 Damon with Dredge
Game 1 I’m on the play and he muls to 4, does nothing on his first turn, I kill him on my second turn.
Game 2 I see nothing game one, sideboard for combo. He dredges 2/3 of his deck turn 1 and can do little more than DreadReturn a Giant troll and therapy me for sneak attack. I play a land and die on his turn 2.
Game 3 I sneak in emrakul turn 2. I have 2 turns to draw a second fatty/top/looting. I whiff on both, and die to zombies plus ichorids.
0-2
Don’t think I did anything wrong here. We’re usually faster than dredge. Not figuring out what he was playing before ending game one might have been a mistake. Waiting until he had 8 cards and watching him just kill me would have been a bigger mistake though. Not sure.

Round 3 Vern with Death and Taxes
Game 1 I’m on the play and he taps out turn 2 for thalia. I worldspine while his swords to plowshares are inactive.
Game 2 I’m on the draw and turn 1 emrakul, He scoops up his cards and leaves a bit salty.
1-2

Round 4 Matt with Jund
Game 1 I’m on the draw and keep a solid 7. He goes deathrite into Hymn and hits my sneak attack AND through the breach. Balls! Like a boss I top deck a through the breach. Griselbrand is the only bro I’m holding. I decide it’s better to TTB on his next end step or in combat if he comes at me with deathrite since I’m not being pressured at all. It doesn’t work, he thoughtseizes me and I have to cast it in his main phase. That’s ok, I draw 7 and don’t hit much. Drawing 7 more puts me at 4 (took two off tomb) and forces me to emrakul or kill him before deathrite can drain, untap, drain me. I’m greedy and go for it. Don’t get there. Untap with 20 some cards in my hand and not able to use my tomb. My available mana is tighter than I want. I felt a little like Goku going SSJ for the first time during this turn, digging deeper than I ever thought at the start of the turn. This was my line. Tap out for Seething song, cast top, spin top, pop top, Seething song, cast second top, faithless looting, pitch a shuffler, spin top with shuffle trigger on stack, pop second top, resolve shuffle, recast first top, spin top, pop top, pitch 2 Spirit guides and a petal into seething song TTB (last card I saw on the last top activation) with every last mana I had access to, for emrakul and get there two turns later while he replays lands.
Game 2 I land turn 2 Koth (YAY) off needle into tomb. Damn, that was useless, I can’t even plus 1 him. Wait a second, I see a taiga and badlands on my opponents board…plus 1 koth, pass. Pyroclasm his bob with a spirit guide and tomb, plus 1 koth, pass. The following turn I have some tough decisions. Do I play Titan into an empty board off Needle Tomb Tomb and lose my only remaning red source? Do I ultimate Koth with no mountains in play? Well if he plays liliana then I lose my titan and my red source. If I don’t find a mountain then I lose my koth for nothing. Pass on both, I’ll plus 1 until I find a mountain or he finds a creature to titan away, pass turn. Bloodbraid into Thoughtseize…Balls! Well there go all my big plans, Koth goes to 3, titan goes to the yard. Koth goes to 4 while I find a mountain. He casts bob and puts koth down to 1. I Rip titan off the top, slam him to kill bloodbraid, a second bob, and my opponent shortly after.
2-2
I don’t know if this is a match for Koth to come in, but I wanted to give it a try, and it worked out. Kept some damage off me, and almost turned my mountains into foreverclasm. Felt nice to use a planeswalker to do something other than brainstorm.

Round 5 Kyle with Blue NicFit
Game 1 On the draw an early emrakul wipes his board, a second quickly follows.
Game 2 On turn 4 he attacks me with an eternal witness. I through the breach Griselbrand and block. Draw 21 cards and miss on sneak attack AND through the breach. Spin top, crack fetch, spin top, crack fetch. Nothing. (Really? whiffed twice now, 3 times if you count the omni match, variance is NOT on my team today) Pyroblast something (venser?) instead of spinning top one last time. Untap and raw draw sneak attack. Swing with the entire team, literally.
3-2
This matchup is pretty easy. Especially when they run light on disruption.

Round 6 Bob with Shardless BUg
Game 1 on the draw I mul to 6, a griselbrand plus emrakul wrap up the game real early. No force of wills in sight.
Game 2 I draw the nuts against him. My 7 is sneak, sneak, tomb, fetch, pyroclasm, griselbrand, moon. His turn 1 thoughtseize takes my moon. A few turns go by and I’ve drawn a third sneak attack. I pyroclasm his board of shardless, double deathrite. He hymns me and hits 2 of my 3 sneak attacks. Wow, nice hymn, good thing he doesn’t know I ripped a third. Another thoughtseize gets my griselbrand and he leaves the sneak so I know he has force. Good thing they call me Henry TopDecker….cause I then draw the 4th sneak attack. Run my 3rd into his force, and then land the 4th and let worldspine clean up.
4-2
Too sweet, seriously, too sweet.

Round 7 John with what looked like Jund but was splashing white for stoneforge?…not really sure what to call it.
Game 1, On the play 7 cards, no mana sources, 6 cards no mana sources, 5 cards all mana sources. Keep (In my defense I’d seen him playing earlier and knew he was on discard for disruption, figured I could blank his discard spells and draw out of it) Biggest mistake of the weekend. Punished for it HARD.
Game 2 Thoughtseize takes the seething song I need to get ahead. Thoughtseize takes the titan I need to dispatch of teeg. Bloodbraids stomp all over my face.
4-3
A little tilted from this match but can still win my entry fee back if I win my next match, and I’m having fun so I’m still feelin alright.

Round 8 Carlos with doomsday
Game 1 on the draw my turn 2 moon cuts him off the black mana he desperately needs. Silence slows my seething song down, but Emrakul and griselbrand have enough time to clean up.
Game 2 My Turn 1 worldspine forces him to kill me turn 2, he’s a mana short.
5-3
Collect my $50 and watch my teammate Timur Babakol play in top 8. Not a bad day, not a bad day at all.

Keep sneakin!
-HDeck

kingtk3
06-25-2013, 03:58 AM
Congratz on the finish hdeck12!!!
On game 2 against Omnihall I think you should have put griselbrand with TTB for two reasons: the first is, as you already stated, to draw some blast or trinisphere, the second because playing Emrakul off their S&T is more frightening than griselbrand.
Basically I would have try to draw REB/Trini, when they'll play S&T let it resolve in order to play Emrakul then counter their EtI. If he didn't play S&T the turn after TTB I would play trinispere in order to prevent him to going off.

How felt the trinisphere over the blood moon number 3 and 4? They are far superior against combo but blood moon is often GG against canadian and some mid range decks.

hdeck12
06-25-2013, 05:03 PM
@Koby....I think I've seen this somewhere before :-)
http://www.eternalcentral.com/?p=4054

Koby
06-25-2013, 05:09 PM
My love for Blood Moon and Mountains knows no bounds!

xdavisx
06-25-2013, 09:23 PM
@hdeck12
Congrats! Any tips or changes walking away from the event?

joylusa
06-25-2013, 11:02 PM
hello guys

firstly congratz @hdeck12 for your good result on SCG Philly

Last saturday a won a 12 players tournament with our lovely deck.
we had played 4 round of swiss where i played against :
Round 1 jund 2-1
Round 2 POX 2-0
Round 3 Infect stompy 2-1
Round 4 Deathrite BUG 2-1 (3 games blood moon turn 1 XD)

Main deck

4 sneak attack
4 thrugh the breach
4 emrakul
3 worldspine wurm
3 griselbrand
2 inferno titan
4 senseis divining top
4 blood moon
2 pyromancy
2 chaos warp
4 simian spirit guide
4 seething song
1 lotus petal
4 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
3 sandstone needle
5 mountains
4 arid mesa
1 bloodstained mire

Side

2 red elemental blast
2 pyroblas
2 pyroclasm
1 volcanic fallout
4 trisnisphere
4 graffdigger cage

I dont remenber too much about the games sorry for this.

This weekend problably i ll play a bit bigger tournament and im gonna play Big Red so im opened to your suggestions about the deck list.

sneak sneak sneak... Xd

Joy

hdeck12
06-26-2013, 01:29 PM
@Joy, SWEEEET, keep it rockin!


@hdeck12
Congrats! Any tips or changes walking away from the event?

I really liked the Titans. They take over the fair matchups.
I never really drew trinisphere but wanted it in 2/3 matches I lost.
I really liked the 3 top 2 faithless split.

Moving forward, I'd switch the Maindeck Chaos Warp and Sideboard Titan. For 2 Titan Main, 2 Warp Board
I'd Cut the SB Karakas for a Moon
I want 2 chalice of the voids in the board, maybe over the third pyroclasm and 3rd Pyroblast
Might be time to cut the petal for a third maindeck moon. 4 Tspheres and 4 moons in the 75 should be solid.
I really like chaos warp, but there might be something better out there, always keeping my eyes open.
Moving Koth To mainboard for a pyromancy might be good since 2 pyromancys in your hand is pretty worthless.
The Moons and 3spheres are the meta call. If you expect combo, play the spheres, if you expect greedy mana "fair" decks, play the moons. Everytime I go to an SCG I get comboed out which is why I went with spheres.

warfordium
06-27-2013, 12:06 AM
is this deck fun and does it often die to itself? i'm looking for something fun and different to proxy up.

kingtk3
06-27-2013, 03:19 AM
is this deck fun and does it often die to itself? i'm looking for something fun and different to proxy up.

There are times when you win fast and other times when you have to play tight and almost control the field, but I don't recall the deck dying to itself because it's very redundant in what it does.

And most of all, This deck is fun as hell!

Darkenslight
06-27-2013, 10:03 AM
A comical addition to the sideboard could be Omen of Fire. You may need to read it for full hilarity.

[SLAYER]chaos
06-27-2013, 06:06 PM
I just picked up some Sneak Attacks so I'm going to be building this deck soon. How necessary are chaos warps? I was thinking about running something closer to the list Koby posted with a higher count of creatures. I especially like the 3 Inferno Titan in that list.

kingtk3
06-27-2013, 06:24 PM
chaos;733982']I just picked up some Sneak Attacks so I'm going to be building this deck soon. How necessary are chaos warps? I was thinking about running something closer to the list Koby posted with a higher count of creatures. I especially like the 3 Inferno Titan in that list.

I use 2-3 Chaos warp in my list mainly as a catch-all answer to permanents (first of all Gaddock) and as a shuffle effect in case of emergency. It's fun but by no mean necessary for this deck.

[SLAYER]chaos
06-27-2013, 07:53 PM
So I guess it'll depend on how much Maverick I expect to face, but if that's the case I like Inferno Titan more anyway. It will be harder to hit 6 mana but being able to cast him off of a seething song is pretty nice and if you attack with him once than you'll probably win against any deck that's running teeg.

hdeck12
06-27-2013, 08:07 PM
chaos;733982']I just picked up some Sneak Attacks so I'm going to be building this deck soon. How necessary are chaos warps? I was thinking about running something closer to the list Koby posted with a higher count of creatures. I especially like the 3 Inferno Titan in that list.

Koby's put his time in, I wouldn't worry about running that list card for card. As for Chaos Warp, I agree with King. It can always re-flip whatever it shuffled away so it's never 100%. Gaddock Teeg is the most common real threat you need to deal with. Post board you can run into things like ensnaring bridge. Just the fact warp hits both of these AND Jace TMS, is pretty sweet. Another fun piece of chaos warp is that in a moon heavy deck it can take out the one basic they managed to get in play before dropping your moon.

[SLAYER]chaos
06-28-2013, 04:11 PM
Why grafdigger's cage over tormod's crypt or relic of progenitus?

Koby
06-28-2013, 04:20 PM
chaos;734138']Why grafdigger's cage over tormod's crypt or relic of progenitus?

It stops Snapcaster Mage and Reanimator and GSZ alike. At least, that's what I want it for. Relic might be a bit better for cantripping. Tormod's Crypt is likely the weakest option. We definitely don't want to lose to Reanimator/Iona on Red.

hdeck12
06-28-2013, 11:30 PM
Agreed. And its a permanent answer to dredge. Relic and Crypt can both be detrimental when cracked, but a turn one cage literally turns off their deck until it's dealt with.

hessenbob
07-13-2013, 01:54 PM
Any new updates to the deck list?

Koby
07-15-2013, 07:11 PM
Any new updates to the deck list?

Trinisphere is better maindeck than Blood Moon right now. My friend 5-0, 10-0'd a room filled with S&T and Elf decks to win first place. Seems legit.

hdeck12
07-15-2013, 11:22 PM
I'm pretty happy with the most recent list I posted. The few updates I made are...
Koth into the main in place of 1 pyromancy, they're both good against control but are also both worthless in multiples.
Titan from the board into the main for Warp. Warp is best used as an answer to hate cards, shouldn't be necessary game 1.
Karakas in the main out for a red fetch, not being able to legend rule others makes it worse.
1 pyroclasm and the hole from koth in the board both became chalice of the voids.
Karakas in the board will become either a moon, titan, or some spicy tech (like word of seizing, which is not optimal, but so much fun)...still not sure. Might even try new Chandra.

Darkenslight
07-16-2013, 02:45 AM
I'm pretty happy with the most recent list I posted. The few updates I made are...
Koth into the main in place of 1 pyromancy, they're both good against control but are also both worthless in multiples.
Titan from the board into the main for Warp. Warp is best used as an answer to hate cards, shouldn't be necessary game 1.
Karakas in the main out for a red fetch, not being able to legend rule others makes it worse.
1 pyroclasm and the hole from koth in the board both became chalice of the voids.
Karakas in the board will become either a moon, titan, or some spicy tech (like word of seizing, which is not optimal, but so much fun)...still not sure. Might even try new Chandra.

I'd argue for Cryoclasm if you had more draw.

Koby
07-16-2013, 03:33 PM
This is what I'm currently rocking:

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Worldspine Worm
3 Griselbrand
3 Inferno Titan
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach
2 Pyromancy
1 Chaos Warp

4 Sensei’s Divining Top

3 Trinisphere
4 Seething Song
1 Lotus Petal

5 Mountain
5 fetchland
4 Sandstone Needle
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors

Changed from my past list:
-4 Blood Moon (to the sideboard)
+3 Trinisphere (from the sideboard)
-1 Faithless Looting (hardly been used or relevant, too low impact)
+1 Chaos Warp (experimenting with it, let's see how this will work out)
+1 Lotus Petal

Sideboard is full on Chalice mode, with some added Pyroclasm to deal with DRS. Blood Moon seems to me like a catch all, and REB/Pyro to deal with SNT decks.

xdavisx
07-17-2013, 02:51 AM
i back these updates. i'm still a fan of word of seizing

Tseng
07-17-2013, 02:52 PM
i back these updates. i'm still a fan of word of seizing

What uses does word of seizing have that you would really want though? The cases I would see using it would be against other Sneak/Show decks and trying to take their creatures, to protect yourself from dying. Even then, it isn't target Emrakul which is the the fatty you're most afraid of.

I could see maybe stealing opponent's Griselbrand to draw a bunch of cards and combo off on your own turn?

Take somebody's Clique/Goyf or something to deal the vital post-Emrakul 5?

The card just seems a little too narrow for the purposes of this deck.

hdeck12
07-17-2013, 05:15 PM
What uses does word of seizing have that you would really want though? The cases I would see using it would be against other Sneak/Show decks and trying to take their creatures, to protect yourself from dying. Even then, it isn't target Emrakul which is the the fatty you're most afraid of.

I could see maybe stealing opponent's Griselbrand to draw a bunch of cards and combo off on your own turn?

Take somebody's Clique/Goyf or something to deal the vital post-Emrakul 5?

The card just seems a little too narrow for the purposes of this deck.

Think bigger...
Ever seen a jace staring at you with 13 counters on it?
Or a Lilly about to ultimate your board?

Yes griselbrand is a sweet steal, but going ultimate with an opponents planeswalker is really what its for.

philo4079
07-23-2013, 05:48 PM
Hi all!
I've just created an account to share my Big Red experience..
I've finished 3rd /128 in a big legacy tournament in France recently.. :smile:

As you'll see, my list is a bit different compared to lists discussed here, as I chose to reinforce the "stompy" side of the deck with 4 chalice, 6 blood/magus and trinisphere main deck..
Chalice and Blood are so powerfull in France meta that it easily and constantly provides free win.

- G1 : 2-0 vs storm
- G2: 1-2 vs sneak show ..
- G3 2-0 vs jund
- G4: 2-1 vs 5 color cascad ??
- G5: 2-1 vs deathblade
- G6: 2-1 vs jund
- G7 : 2-0 big blue

Top 8 :
- Quarters : 2-0 vs T *****
With impressive hands, I locked my opponent on G1 with chalice and blood, and will go God-mod on G2 for a T2 win :-)

- 1/2 Finals: lost vs Omni-Show.. A match full of missplays from my side...

The List :

8 sol land ( city / ancient tomb)
12 mountain
4 simian spirit guide
4 seething song
4 chalice
2 trinisphere
4 blood moon
2 magus of the moon
4 sneak attack
4 through the breach
2 griselbrand
4 emrakul
4 worldspine wurm
3 inferno titan => This guy is awesome... I really stole games with him...


SB :
4 leyline of sanctify
2 trinisphere
1 pyromancy
2 defense grid
2 chaos warp
2 pyroclasm
2 Grafdigger cage

hdeck12
07-25-2013, 07:42 PM
Congrats Philo! Thats a good sized tournament. Nice to see another sleeper smashing with monstars. The most success I've ever had with the deck was a more stompy build featuring chalices and moons. Maybe it is just better then the Senseis top version. You must be very good at deciding which mulligans to keep. Keep it up!

xdavisx
07-28-2013, 11:16 PM
@hdeck12

LOL, i get this message from my friend today.

"Your friend, Hdeck from the Source, Shiiiiit all over me in the 10th Round of the Legacy Open."

it made my night, looking forward to a report

hessenbob
07-29-2013, 01:15 PM
So what are the thoughts on the manabase at this point in time? I like running 4 Tops with 5 fetches, so I've been going more toward the manabase that Koby is running.


I've been enjoying the following list, at 61 cards (an extra Trinisphere). I cut the pyromancies, as I've only won probably 1 game out of an estimated 40-50 games with it.

5 Mountain
5 fetchland
4 Sandstone Needle
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Worldspine Worm
3 Griselbrand
3 Inferno Titan
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach
1 Grim Monolith
2 Chaos Warp

4 Sensei’s Divining Top

4 Trinisphere
4 Seething Song
1 Lotus Petal

kingtk3
07-29-2013, 02:21 PM
I would max the ancient tomb before the sandstone needles, since they allow you for broken starts like tomb + simian + song + SA/TtB + Wurm

hdeck12
07-29-2013, 11:05 PM
I played in the Legacy open at SCG Somerset this past sunday. It was the largest one they've ever had. 500 something people. 10 rounds, and full of all the ringers who were in town for the invitational...Brutal!

I didn't take to many notes so this should be pretty short and sweet. List-->Round by Round-->Reflections

List

4 sneak attack
4 through the breach
2 pyromancy

4 emrakul, the aeons torn
4 worldspine wurm
3 griselbrand
3 inferno titan

3 sensei's divining top
2 faithless looting
3 trinisphere

4 seething song
4 simian spirit guide
1 lotus petal
4 ancient tomb
4 sandstone needle
2 city of traitors
4 mountain
1 arid mesa
4 scalding tarn

//SB
2 grafdigger's cage
2 red elemental blast
2 pyroblast
3 chalice of the void
3 blood moon
2 pyroclasm
1 chaos warp


Round by Round

Round 1 Reid Duke with B/G Pox
I've seen Reid play at other SCG's. I was a little star struck sitting down across from one of the pros I admire. I rarely get intimidated, but I saw this guy crushing a tournament with scroll rack the weekend after land tax was unbanned...it impressed me. I played like a total noob this game, it was embarrassing. I don't know if it was playing a ringer round 1, or the 11 rounds of standard the day before, but I was off my game.
Game 1 I'm on the play and keep 6 with turn 2 wurm. He keeps 7 and leads off with a bojuka bog. WTF? What deck keeps 7 and leads off with a bojuka bog? I was confused, but it's Reid Duke (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/archive.php?Article=Reid%20Duke) so he clearly knows what he's doing. I untap and slam the wurm. It's too much to handle.
SB I have no idea what he's on but I'm guessing its not combo. Out 3spheres and in Moons
Game 2 I keep 7 with a turn 1 moon. He leads with some black land that comes into play tapped. I draw and play moon. We play draw go for about 10 turns while he discards sinkholes, hymns and poxes. I'm still not entirely sure what he was playing, but I'm pretty sure it had 0-2 basics in the 75. Not a very fun match for either of us but I walk away with a win.

1-0 Crank some Eminem through my headphones and try to get in the zone.

Round 2 Greg with OmniShow
We sit down and have a short conversation about how much we both hate show and tell. I'm being perfectly honest, s&t is a trap.
Game 1 Greg casts show and tell on turn 2. I lose as he brainstorms with 2 cards in his library.
I'm pretty mad at this point. Not cause he lied to me, but because it didn't even cross my mind. Definitely still off my game.
SB in 4 blasts, 1 warp, 1 chalice out 3 song 2 faithless 1 pyromancy
Game 2 I keep a 7 with 3sphere, Reb and Titan. I rip a spirit guide and can play my 3sphere on turn 2 with Blast backup. It resolves anyways. I get to 6 mana and cast titan. I untap and swing. On his end step he wishes, and I blast...on to game 3.
Game 3 I keep Blast, Sneak, Warp, lands. He turn one thoughtseizes me. Well, guess he's not mono blue, thats not good. He takes my blast. I rip an emrakul. I'm in an awkward position because if I play my sneak attack I won't have mana up to activate it or for warp and am totally defenseless if he goes off on his turn 3. So I pass the turn and hope he doesn't go off with backup. He doesn't. I decide that doing nothing puts me in the same position again so I decided to end step warp one of his lands putting him to two so that he can't wish or intuition when I cast sneak attack. It works better than I could have ever imagined. On his end step, the underground sea turns into a dream halls. I rip a spirit guide, discard it to cast sneak attack, and emrakul away the game.
Turns out even though he's a dirty liar, Greg is a real nice guy. We talked after the match and throughout the day, hope to see him again sometime.

2-0 Feelin good cause I actually had to make decisions, but still heading back to the hood up headphones on.

Round 3 Evan with Esper/Death-blade
Evan goes to college where I live so we know each other well. It sucks playing friends so early in the day.
Game 1 I'm on the draw. I keep my 7. I know his list isn't traditional esperblade or deathblade, it's some 4 color hybrid. He leaves up flooded strand for two turns so I do nothing expecting spell pierce or swords to plowshares. He taps out on turn 3 for geist of st traft. I slam wurm and hear "and of course the tokens have trample too."
SB Out 3 spheres, 3 songs, 2 pyromancy, in 3 Moons 3 blasts 2 pyroclasm.
Game 2 I draw a sweet 7. He wastes my needle. Wastes my tomb, vindicates my mountain. I don't see another land until I'm beaten down by a batterskull.
Game 3 He plays turn 1 deathrite, turn 2 meddling mage on sneak attack, turn 3 stoneforge fetching batterskull. I sandbag a pyroclasm until turn 4. He counters my through the breach. He counters my through the breach. I resolve a sneak attack and wipe his board with emrakul. I sneak attack a spirit guide the following turn to finish the match.

3-0 Well, at least one of us was going to end up 3-0, feelin the zone now.

Round 4 Scott with elves.
Game 1 I'm on the draw. I sneak attack a titan to wipe his board and finish up with an emrakul.
SB In 3 chalice, 2 pyroclasm 2 cage Out 2 pyromancy, 4 wurm 1 faithless
Game 2 He plays llanowar. I play Chalice off tomb. He plays greensuns x=1 for dryad arbor and cradle into visionary. I play trinishpere off tomb going to 16. He casts natural order and Hoofs me for 16 exactly. I'm impressed. I thought I had the game on lockdown.
Game 3. I can't believe I just lost that game. My deck agrees with me delivers an unbeatable 7. Turn one on the play vs elves. Tomb->Guide->Song->Song->Cast Titan, Pass turn.

4-0 Halfway there.

Round 5 Dustin with BUG
Game 1 He maelstrom pulses my hardcast titan and FOWs my next two threats. I lose
SB Out 3 spheres, 3 songs, 1 faithless, In 3 moons, 4 blasts
Game 2 I resolve a turn 4 sneak attack and griselbrand gives me 14 chances to hit a 15/15. I win
Game 3 I keep an average 7. Unfortunately my opponent is smart enough to FOW my turn 1 top. I manage to rip a second a bit later but a pair of goyfs are pressuring me. I set two threats up on top of my deack but unfortunately he thoughtseizes a Wurm out of my hand so I'm forced to shuffle. I find one more threat but he's holding FOW blue card. I lose.

4-1 Super disappointed but felt like my opponent played super tight.

Round 6 Andrew with Jund
Game 1 He gets me down to 7 before I can annihilate his board and put him to 2. For the second time of the day a simian spirit guide with haste closes out the game.
SB Out 3 spheres, 2 pyromancys, 1 faithless, In 3 moons, 2 pyroclams, 1 warp
Game 2 I keep a sweet 7. Thoughseize hits me turn 1 but I have double everything so I'm still good to go on turn 3. Turn 2 Hymn takes my land AND spirit guide. Turn 3 Hymn gets my song and something irrelevant. I can't build enough mana or rebuild my hand before my face gets junded on.
Game 3 I mull to 5 and keep a hand with turn two moon and pray he doesn't thoughtseize me turn 1. It works out, I slam the moon on turn 2 and a wurm on turn 4.

5-1 Take a deep breath and tell myself I've still got a shot.

Round 7 Bill with ANT
I sit down and look to my left, he's playing lands, I look to my right, he's playing lands. PLEASE tell me i'm playing against lands....
Game 1 I'm on the play. Turn 1 duress takes my sneak attack. F***! the two guys next to me are playing lands and I get paired with storm. I cast a titan turn 2 with a song. Turn 3 use a song to make him a super titan and attack my opponent down to 1. Go ahead try to adnauseum! Cabal Ritual, Cabal Ritual, LED, LED, Infernal Tutor, Break-LEDs, Cabal ritual, Flashback Past in Flame, Tutor, Tendrils. Ouch.
SB 3 chalice, 3 moon Out 2 pyromany, 1 Wurm 3 titan
Game 2 I don't know the ANT list very well (I blame you Bryant Cook) and thought setting my chalice at 2 would be better than 1 because then I could still cast top, and turn off his tutors. In retrospect I should have just set it at 0. It's ok though, at the end of this game my opponent is trying to go off through double blood moon, double trinisphere. He gets surprisingly close.
Game 3 I mull to 4 before seeing anything resembling a winning hand. He kills me the turn before I can emrakul his board.

5-2 Out of the top 8 but still in contention for top 16 or 32.

Round 8 Daniel with UW Landstill.
I'm so tired and dejected at this point I don't even wanna play magic anymore.
Game 1 3 mishras factories beat me down while FOWs and spell pierces keep me off anything relevant.
SB in 3 moons 4 blasts out 4 songs 2 faithless looting 1 sphere.
Game 2 I kinda give up this game cause I'm frustrated. All I remember is on the crucial turn he cast Clique, I REBed it, He misdirected it, I REBed it again, he pierced or forced or both.

5-3 Come this far, might as well play it out for top 64.

Round 9 Eric Vogt with ????
Game 1 The judge comes by and says, if your opponent shows up or ten minutes goes by call me.
Game 2 The judge says ok ten minutes is up, which of these two names is you.

6-3 If I lose my last round and waited all this time I'm not going to be a happy camper.

Round 10 Erik with RUG
Game 1 I'm on the draw. I wait until I can play around soft counters and land a sneak attack. No FOW in sight. I tap two mountains to give emrakul and Titan haste.
SB In 3 moons, 4 Blasts Out 3 song, 2 sphere, 2 pyromancy
Game 2 Turn 1 delver puts me under pressure. Turn 2 waste keeps me there. I walk into a daze, and turn 3 waste seals his win.
Game 3 He mulls to the near perfect 4. I drop a turn 1 moon and he doesn't have force.

7-3 good fro 42nd place out of a ton of people and $50. Call it a day and start the 4 hour drive back to my house.

Reflections
Inferno titan was the nuts all day long.
Pyromancy didn't do anything for me all day. I'm thinking about cutting it for another lock piece and a land or a miser defense grid.
10 rounds playing against 9 different decks (10 potentially if my opponent had shown up) tells me that we have a super healthy format.
I need to work on the BUG matchup. It used to be a joke, but I struggled with it this weekend. I didn't remember Goyf being in that deck.
Faithless looting is literally terrible when you have a top in play. I think I'm going back to 4 tops 1 faithless
I might want a misers mindbreak trap in the board. The storm matchup is so hard. Especially when you lose the die roll.

I didn't get to sleep until 3 am last night and had to be up for work this morning so remember I was super tired when I wrote this, ignore any typos.
-H

kingtk3
07-30-2013, 07:24 AM
Very nice report hdeck12!!!

I see you have boarded in blood moons seven time out of nine played rounds, and boarded out trinisphere 5 times: wouldn't it be better if you played BM main deck? I'm referring to a big tournament obviously, since in local meta you adjust to what you know your opponents are playing (basically more combo -> 3sphere MD, more fair -> blood moon MD).

That said I think your consideration about pyromancy is right, as the deck needs more threats that are castable and don't depend on the fatties.

Kid
07-30-2013, 11:49 AM
Congratz hdeck12!
Very good report!

I'm a little bit startled about not having Blood Moon MD.
Was is a meta choice? Because in my experience a Blood Moon T1 or T2 is 80% of the time a win.
Or is it like a "bluff" like "i cheat phat motherfuckerz, you'll maybe board hate against trinisphere but i'm going to board in BM that you wont expect"
Asking that because in the end like kingtk3 said you sided-in those BM 7 times of 9 rounds.
Blood Moon would have maybe saved you there, don't you think?

Again report and grtz for your 42th place ;)

Kid

Koby
07-30-2013, 12:00 PM
I can lend some thoughts on BM vs 3sphere. Against fair decks that play 3c duals, we're highly favored anyway. Adding more disruption with Blood Moon tends to be win-more than Trinisphere. However, against the unfair combo decks, Blood Moon may not affect them at all; whereas Trinisphere is flat out the best card to have early. Thus, we're putting the conditional disruption (Blood Moon) in the sideboard when we need it and staying with the better disruption in the main.

xdavisx
07-30-2013, 12:14 PM
glad to see titans back in the main.

FTW
07-30-2013, 12:30 PM
I'm replying to a post from a while ago, but why don't you want 2 Griselbrands in the opener? Or rather, why would you want a different creature in place of it?

There are 3 reasons it would be unfavorable:
1) both are stuck in hand with no way to drop them, but the same would be true for any other expensive/uncastable creature

2) S n T/Reanimator/TinFins opponent already has a Griselbees on the field. Yours gets legend ruled. BUT WAIT. New m14 rules. Not a problem. Bi-lander: There can only be two.

3) 1 Griselbrand is already on the battlefield so the second would get "legend ruled" and is a dead card. BUT WAIT. You have a Griselbrand on the battlefield. Where is the problem? Oh, sadface, I guess I have to draw 14 cards instead of cheating out a 2nd creature. No chance there will be another creature in those 14 cards, not at all.

So basically I don't see why an extra Griselbrand is a bad thing. If you're ever in a position where you have one on the board already that is preventing you from playing a 2nd, you should already be winning. If you have an extra R open and want a second creature to swing with, just draw 7 and find one.

Kid
07-30-2013, 12:43 PM
I can lend some thoughts on BM vs 3sphere. Against fair decks that play 3c duals, we're highly favored anyway. Adding more disruption with Blood Moon tends to be win-more than Trinisphere. However, against the unfair combo decks, Blood Moon may not affect them at all; whereas Trinisphere is flat out the best card to have early. Thus, we're putting the conditional disruption (Blood Moon) in the sideboard when we need it and staying with the better disruption in the main.

Ye, I understand.
But why not both in this case?
Maybe side out 2 faithless looting for 2 BM main?
I've been playing the faithless looting as well. In my experience it's not really that good. Dunno, I might need more testing...

kingtk3
07-30-2013, 02:53 PM
3nisphere is indeed a strong card, I know that very well from my MUD days. It's also an aswer to show and tell that cannot be stiffled.

However I think it would play better with chalice than with blood moon, since chalice can come down a turn earlier which is relevant against combo. Moreover is an answer to Sword to plowshares (no StP for my wurm? Too bad...) and discard.

It seems that no matter how long I try I cannot run away from my love for prison decks... ;)

Koby
07-30-2013, 03:02 PM
Ye, I understand.
But why not both in this case?
Maybe side out 2 faithless looting for 2 BM main?
I've been playing the faithless looting as well. In my experience it's not really that good. Dunno, I might need more testing...

As for the disruption package, we've tested 4 Blood Moon, then 3 Trinisphere, and 2 Moon 2 Sphere. I'm not confident we've found the right mix yet. I'm going mostly by intuition here, since Stompy decks in general are hard to grok/mulligan. I like the suggestion for Trinisphere and Chalice. I may have to test it out.

Faithless Looting is lousy. It can be cut. Are there other ways to filter/loot after the first 4 Tops? Would playing disruption instead just be better? Testing will tell.

kingtk3
07-30-2013, 03:43 PM
As for the disruption package, we've tested 4 Blood Moon, then 3 Trinisphere, and 2 Moon 2 Sphere. I'm not confident we've found the right mix yet. I'm going mostly by intuition here, since Stompy decks in general are hard to grok/mulligan. I like the suggestion for Trinisphere and Chalice. I may have to test it out.

Faithless Looting is lousy. It can be cut. Are there other ways to filter/loot after the first 4 Tops? Would playing disruption instead just be better? Testing will tell.

I don't think of any good card in red for manipulating the deck. Moreover with the inclusion of chalice Sensei's divining top may become an issue and lead to akward situations where you play the top before the chalice and then lose because of that. Top also would become a dead top deck which is quite the opposite from the actual situation.

If a more disruptive path is chosen two paths come to my mind

play more threats: manipulation is cut entirely from the deck in favor of extra disruption and the strenght and density of our threats makes up for the loss of manipulation
play other types of manipulation: first two cards I can think of are scroll rack and crystal ball which are, in my opinion, quite underrated and suffer from the comparison with top. I push myself to say that in a deck which search for a card to close the game (SA in play and in need of a fatty) they can be better than top.


Man, I wish I could have more time to test :/

phazonmutant
07-30-2013, 04:24 PM
Turns out even though he's a dirty liar, Greg is a real nice guy. We talked after the match and throughout the day, hope to see him again sometime.

Haha, not a liar, just a hypocrite. I do hate Show and Tell, and that's probably the last (and first!) Open I'll ever play it.

Congrats on top64! Good meeting you!

hdeck12
07-30-2013, 10:01 PM
@ Hessenbob: Cut a card, play the best 60 to increase your odds of getting what you want. As for the manabase... I like 2 cities because it's never a turn 1 play in the dark. And even when you know what they're on, it still doesn't come out until your last land drop. I usually don't play it until I can win, even if it means missing a land drop. Playing a city and getting another necessary land wasted gets you way behind. Sandstone needle is pretty necessary. It gives you the turn 2 sneak attack or the turn 3 titan line. I've played 3, and was unhappy. Honestly my ideal 7 card hand contains 2 of these. They always get wasted, but if they don't, you end up way ahead. I've lost plenty of games because I took too much damage off tomb. I think 3 tombs is more acceptable than three needles. However, if you end up on the chalice or defense grid plan, then the tombs are probably better than the needles. I like 5 fetches with tops, I only run the 4 mountains. If I dropped a sandstone, I'd add a mountain. Running out of red mana is no good for this deck.

@Kingtk/Kid: My thoughts on the main deck 3spheres were summed up nicely by Koby. It wasn't a specific meta call. I had no clue what I was going to be facing. The rumors were that there would be a lot of lands and shardless, both of which moon is way better against. We generally win game 1 against the 3 color aggro decks. The moons are less necessary and in the board to swap out as a catch-all when sphere is no good. Moon is no hard lock against the storm decks with all their artifact mana, while 3 sphere generally is game 1. I can't afford to burn resources (like a guide or turn 1 city of traitors) to play a turn 1 moon unless I KNOW it's going to be game breaking.

@FTW: I don't want two griselbrands, ever. 1. True, cards in hand are cards in hand, doesn't matter what their text is. 2. Tin Fins doesn't count because it's part of their infinite combo. As for S&T and Reanimator, they are entirely different monsters. Their plan is to get griselbrand in play and keep him there. They have the ability to slowly wear down the opponent by bashing with him and drawing 7 cards a turn thanks to lifelink. They also have the ability draw into counterspells in order to protect him. Our game plan is to resolve 1 sneak effect in order to win the game. Emrakul does it by clearing their full board. Wurm does it by leaving pieces of himself. All griselbrand does is gives us a reload and chance to try again. Most of the time when you resolve a sneak effect and put grisel into play, you instantly draw 14 cards (before attacking) and try to finish the game on the spot. If they couldn't stop your first effect, they won't stop your second. You pass the turn and no matter how many cards you've drawn they can either untap and storm you out (wurm leaves you open to this as well), or draw that one more card that lets them stop you. Having two griselbrands doesn't help you with this plan. 3. Exactly, when we draw 14 cards, a different creature is precisely what we want, not 3 more griselbrands. OVERALL I guess it boils down to the fact the other creatures win the game. Griselbrand can only get you to the creatures that win you the game, not actually impact the board himself.

@Koby/King:Figuring out the disruption package has been the tough part of this deck. I've tried all combinations of moon/sphere. Nothing has felt perfect yet, but I also don't have the patience to jam games and crunch statistics. Top is SWEET. But I want chalices back. I have yet to let a wurm get STPed but the more we all crush with worldspine, the less people will tap out their plains. If chalice does come back in, I'd feel comfortable playing wurmcoil which could take the pyromancy spot as a castable threat that can also be sneaked with some value. If crystal ball cost 2 I'd try that. At3 I'll still give it a look, but it feels weak. I tried scroll rack once. It's a much tougher card to play than top. Maybe I just needed to practice with it more but I struggled, it IS super powerful. I'm open to suggestions at this point. I think chalice is just too good in this archetype not to maindeck.

S1N1STER
07-30-2013, 10:17 PM
I love the good ol' T1 chalice on 1, so I was wondering how something like wild guess might be since I wouldn't have to worry about chalice on 1.

hdeck12
07-30-2013, 10:25 PM
I love the good ol' T1 chalice on 1, so I was wondering how something like wild guess might be since I wouldn't have to worry about chalice on 1.

Wild Guess is what I was using before I switched to top. It's a bit like faithless. Not the worst, but not really great either. The double red can be frustrating.

whienot
07-30-2013, 10:55 PM
Wild Guess is what I was using before I switched to top. It's a bit like faithless. Not the worst, but not really great either. The double red can be frustrating.

And is absolutely miserable if countered.

I'm borrowing old tech from Imperial Painter and trying out Magma Jet. It's another means to filter the top of your deck while giving you a little reach (think post Emrakul). It also hits Gaddock Teeg when there's no Mother of Runes.

xdavisx
07-30-2013, 11:12 PM
i can relate to what hdeck12 said, "most success I've ever had with the deck was a more stompy build featuring chalices and moons".
i like top a lot but i think i'd rather play more threats and lock pieces. as much as pyromancy pulled me out of some tight spots, thoughts on cutting it or moving it to the board?

Darkenslight
07-31-2013, 08:30 AM
i can relate to what hdeck12 said, "most success I've ever had with the deck was a more stompy build featuring chalices and moons".
i like top a lot but i think i'd rather play more threats and lock pieces. as much as pyromancy pulled me out of some tight spots, thoughts on cutting it or moving it to the board?

I'd consider moving it to the board, and adding in either Pyrostatic Pillar (in a combo-heavy metagame) or Mindsparker (in a tempo/control meta).

kingtk3
07-31-2013, 08:59 AM
Here's a list that focuses more on disruption

4 chalice of the void
2 scroll rack
3 trinisphere
4 simian spirit guide
3 inferno titan
3 griselbrand
4 worldspine wurm
4 emrakul, the aeons torn
4 sneak attack
4 seething song
4 through the breach
2 koth of the hammer

5 mountain
4 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
3 sandstone needle
4 wooded foothills
1 arid mesa

SIDE
3 pyroclasm
3 blood moon
2 defense grid
3 faerie macabre
2 red elemental blast
2 chaos warp


I've always been a fan of Chalice in legacy, in fact I think that chalice owns legacy decks pretty well considering the number of CC 1 spells that are used. Moreover Big Red has even more chance than MUD of playing a cov on turn 1 thanks to simian, and even if we are on the draw we can easily turn the tables since it's what this deck is designed to do.

Scroll rack is the card I would like to test the most: its CC 2 let us play it with CoV and it's ability has synergy with fetchlands, emrakul and wurm shuffle effects and griselbrand and helps against discard too. It also gets rid of extra 3spheres and blood moons and mana when we don't need it anymore.

I upped the count of wurm and titan from my previous list too in order to add consistency to the deck.

I still like koth, but I wouldn't mind replacing it with something else provided its CC is under 5, possibly 4: I don't want my hands to be clogged by uncastable cards. flametongue kavu can find a spot here, if your meta request for it.

Keep in mind that I haven't tested this list at all and I'm merely speculating about the cards (although I have solid experience with them). The only card I really would need to test is scroll rack since it's been ages since the last time that I played it: maybe some of you will try it and gives us its thoughts on the matter.

Any criticism is welcomed!!!

PollePotDK
08-01-2013, 07:20 AM
Took down a local 20-man tournament yesterday (5-0 / 10-1), only loosing a single game to my own deck (Junk), which I borrowed to a fellow player.

I played the list below and am very happy with the control/disruption suite in trinisphere and blood moon. There's a lot of Storm/Combo and greedy mana bases at my LGS, so that works for me.

just took in the Inferno titan again after having dismissed him for some time, because of meta issues, and are happy with him. Became a key creature in some matches.

When it comes to the discussion regarding Koth of the Hammer and Pyromancy, I'm extremely happy with Pyromancy. Though I would not play more than the 2 at the moment, it has won me several games and even though I haven't testet with Koth (he's in the mail), I think Pyromancy will still be better than Koth, since Koth opens up for removal of our mountains and takes 2-3 turns before Ultimate are active. But I might be surprised when testing him - more to that later.

The List:

4 sneak attack
4 through the breach
2 pyromancy

4 emrakul, the aeons torn
3 worldspine wurm
3 griselbrand
2 inferno titan

3 sensei's divining top
3 blood moon
4 trinisphere

4 seething song
4 simian spirit guide
2 lotus petal

4 ancient tomb
4 sandstone needle
2 city of traitors
4 mountain
4 wooded foothills

//SB
4 pyroblast
2 chalice of the void
3 pyroclasm
2 chaos warp
4 leyline of sanctity

Tournament report (out of memory):

Round one (Aleksander, UR Delver)
Game 1: I got beaten down for two or three turns by a Goblin Guide and nets some lands in the process, before Worldspine Wurm seals the game through the breach. He had no hardcounters in hand.

Game 2: Delver of Secrets beats me down for a while and he counters my Through the Breach and I destroys his Delver with Pyroblast to get some spaces. Pyromancy wins the game for me, since I had to much mana and he had only Daze/Spell Pierce.

1-0 / 2-0

Round two (Steffen, 4c-Deathrite)
Game 1: I play down Sandstone Needle and ships the turn. He tanks for a while and plays down Deathrite Shaman and Go. My opener had turn two Gieselbrand through Sneak Attack, IF my Needle survived (I had only that land in hand). It did and I draw 14 into land and Emrakul for the win. He reveals that he thought of wasteland my Needle, but waited a turn - lucky for me.

Game 2: He gets a Liliana down, but that is not enough. I Gieselbrand her, Blood Moon his board (only duals on his side) and Through the Breach a Worldspine Wurm with Pyroblast backup with him having only Force of Will a turn or two later.

2-0 / 4-0

Round three (Ditlev, RW Goblins)
Game 1: Turn two Worldspine Wurm and he scoops.

Game 2: Pyroclasm his board on turn two and Inferno Titan joins in, but get bounced a turn later. Emrakul, however, joins in a turn later and that's all she wrote.

3-0 / 6-0

Round four (Jeppe, Junk - my own deck)
Game 1: I cast Blood Moon on turn two, after him casting Inquisition of Kozilek on his turn. He somehow fails to understand the impact on his mana base when he takes my Seething Song. GG

Game 2: He disrupts me and lays pressure fast, after me mulliganing to 5 cards. On to game 3.

Game 3: I don't remember this game that well, but win was Sneak Attack into Emrakul to get him to 2 life. I top deck a Simian Spirit Guide a turn later to seal the game.

4-0 / 8-1

Round five (Simon, OmniTell)
Game 1: He's manascrewed since his two Preordains doesn't find him any lands and I take the game after the first threat was countered.

Game 2: This game was pretty tight. We play land-Go for 4-5 turns. I try Throught the Breach into Worldspine Wurm, but he counters it. I resolve top and Trinisphere and try 1 Sneak Attack and 1 Pyromancy before the second Pyromancy sticks with me having two Emrakul and 1 Worldspine Wurm in hand and lots of mana.

5-0 / 10-1

Afterthoughs:
I have had this Deck on the shevels for a while, playing 12 Post instead, but really enjoy playing it again. Think it's the deck for now :-)

Trinisphere are the nuts
Blood Moon are the nuts
Inferno Titan are good again

Thinking about adding the fourth Worldspine Wurm. Many times I sit with a Through the Breach in hand and Gieselbrand og Emrakul and nothing else, where Worldspine Wurm would be Godlike. Does anyone else think that Through the Breach can at times be meeh? most of the times it's not GG!

/PollePotDK

kingtk3
08-01-2013, 09:36 AM
...
Thinking about adding the fourth Worldspine Wurm. Many times I sit with a Through the Breach in hand and Gieselbrand og Emrakul and nothing else, where Worldspine Wurm would be Godlike. Does anyone else think that Through the Breach can at times be meeh? most of the times it's not GG!

/PollePotDK

First of all congratz for the finish!

I agree with you: especially against non white decks Wurm is the best you can cheat into play because of its "dies" ability, not to mention that it's not karakas-ble.

I think that 4 is the right number.

hessenbob
08-15-2013, 12:53 AM
I played tonight in a 12man to a 3-1 finish. I won most of the games, didn't encounter much countermagic, so I can't comment too much on the benefit of Defense Grid coming out of the sideboard. Grafdigger's Cage was clutch several times.


First Match was against Burn, which was one of those crazy ones you don't expect. Game 1- I was on the play, and hit a turn one Trinisphere, but was ultimately killed by his turn 1 Goblin Guide and his combination of burn spells. I figured he was playing burn and kept a hand with a T1 Trinisphere, Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, SSG, Sneak Attack, Worldspine. I didn't draw the remainder of my red mana to get the Sneak Attack going.

Game 2 to 3- not as much problem. Game 2, I set up a Sneak Attack w Griselbrand, Emrakul and Worldspine.

Match 2- No Mana- Lab Maniac & Undercity Informer Combo Deck- He won first game, 1 turn before I could combo. Second Game I won without issue. G3- He won Turn 0 (before I drew).

Match 3 and 4 were budget brews without any problems.


Forgot decklist!

4 sneak attack
4 through the breach

4 emrakul, the aeons torn
4 worldspine wurm
2 griselbrand
3 inferno titan

4 sensei's divining top
3 blood moon
4 trinisphere

4 seething song
4 simian spirit guide
1 lotus petal

4 ancient tomb
4 sandstone needle
3 city of traitors
4 mountain
4 bloodstained mire

hdeck12
08-17-2013, 10:27 PM
Just played my way to the top 8 of 36 man tournament at Mythic Games (http://www.mythicgameselmira.com/Forum/news.php) in Elmira, NY.


4 sandstone needle
4 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
4 arid mesa
1 scalding tarn
4 mountain

1 lotus petal
4 simian spirit guide
4 seething song

4 sneak attack
4 through the breach
1 pyromancy

4 worldspine wurm
4 emrakul, the aeons torn
3 griselbrand

3 inferno titan

4 chalice of the void
2 trinisphere

1 scroll rack
1 crystal ball
1 chaos warp

//SB
2 pyroclasm
2 trinisphere
4 blood moon
3 grafdigger's cage
4 defense grid


Round 1 Lost to BRw aggro attrition (finished 2nd over all) in 3. It was the guy I rode with to the tournament, his cabal therapies were really good game one since he knew what I was on. Pretty much got discarded out of games 1 and 3.

Round 2 Won over Elves in 2, Chalice followed by titan ended both games quickly.

Round 3 Won over Elves in 3, I kept a turn 3 on the draw hand game two and was punished for it, Trinisphere and titan sealed up games 1 and 3.

Round 4 Lost to TES (finished 5-8 over all) in 3. Game 1 turn 1 chalice gets there. Game 2 he goes off turn 0. Game 3 my turn 1 blood moon doesn't do enough to stop his turn 2 kill.

Round 5 Won over Thalia Goblins in 3.

Round 6 won over UR burn in 3. The deck was very kind to me this match, it was super close, and on game three it delivered crucial cards at crucial moments.

8th seed going into Top 8
Quarterfinal I'm on the draw against Reanimator...balls!
Game 1 he entombs in response to my turn 1 chalice, turn 2 exhumes.
Game 2 I have the win in my hand and totally blow it. Turn 1 I play chalice at 1. He draws and gives up his land drop to discard. On my turn two I have double seething song, Grid and Chalice in hand. I'm supposed to double song, and play grid into chalice at 2 to lock him out of the game. When he lets my first song resolve I have a mental lapse and wonder why I don't have enough mane to cast both (forgetting I had another song, or thinking I had already made my planned play, who knows, it was dumb) and just drop the chalice at 2 and he forces (which wouldn't have happened if I had done what I was supposed to). Granted if he had double force my play wouldn't have worked, but I don't think he did, I didn't even ask cause I was so mad at myself. So then he reanimates his bro that makes me discard my hand on every end step and I die a few turns later.

Notes on the day:
I sided out crystal ball and Scroll rack every single game. I think for digging, it's Top or more lock pieces. Granted I didn't get to cast ball ever so the jury's still out, but I never had enough cards in hand to effectively use scroll rack.

With more lock pieces, there needs to be one less sandstone and one more petal or ctiy.

Against reanimator I ran into not being able to cast my cage while a chalice was in play. I really just wanted karakas.

I think chaos warp is a board card, I should of had the third trinisphere or a moon main.

Hope you all had a good weekend.
-H

xdavisx
08-18-2013, 01:23 AM
nice @hessenbob and @hdeck12! i definitely approve the titans being back in the main. would you ever run just 3 chalice in the mainboard, or do you always want the 4?

hdeck12
08-18-2013, 06:51 AM
@Davis: You might be able to get away with 3 maindeck. I wasn't sure what I wanted my list to be since its the first time I've played without top for a while. I figured if I'm cutting top, then I really want to be playing chalice on turn 1 every single game (against non stax decks) and 100% want 4 in the 75. Also chalice is the only one of our lock pieces that actually works in multiples so I'd play 4 of those over 4 of anything else. That said, with a full set of chalices, shaving the fourth 3 sphere might be profitable. Before it was the only real answer to storm, and just happened to be the best card against the most recent iteration of show and tell (omni). Having the chalices for storm, and omni not dominating the meta game, I think 3 trinispheres would have been a better call. Still not sure on the numbers, hopefully we'll find a correct set before DC. As for titan, dude is a baller! Casting him against elves is too much fun.

kingtk3
08-18-2013, 11:01 AM
@hdeck12: I've done some testing with scroll rack and I agree with you, I've seldom had enough cards in hand to make it count. Next I'm going to test 2 crystal ball main deck, although its CC 3 kind of scares me...
I agree that with lock pieces 4 sandstone needle are too much, but I would replace one of them with a basic mountain.

In the end, however, I think that Chalices are stronger than Tops, especially with only 5 fetches in the deck: they lose much potential with so few shuffle effects. So I'm planning to develop a solid "prison" version of the deck.

Keep posting your results and thoughts!!!

HansonWK
08-19-2013, 12:06 PM
Been playing MUD (Forgemaster combo) for a while and fancied a bit of a change. About half of my decklist is actually the same, but this is what I will be rocking up to legacy with next weekend:

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Blood Moon

4 Emrakul
4 Griselbrand
2 Worldspine Wurm
2 Inferno Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach

2 Koth

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Seething Song

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Sandstone Needles
9 Mountains

SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Bloodmoon
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Pyromancy
SB: 2 Chaos Warp
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroclasm

Notes: The single wurmcoil has been pretty good in testing, helps vs agro if you have a slow hand, and its good to sneak in if you have to, while being easy to cast as well. There is an argument to be made that its not better than a 3rd Titan, but I love the card so I want to keep it in.
10 Maindeck lock pieces might be too much, but I'm going to test it. The 3 3sphere/blood moon are because they are bad in multiples, while Chalice is still okay because you can easily Chalice for 0/1/2 in some matchups.
No Faithless Looting or Sensei's Top because of the chalice/3sphere. The sb bloodmoon might change to a sb 3sphere.
I don't like Pyromancy much, but I've been told to run it for against control so I'm trying it out in the side.

xdavisx
08-19-2013, 02:28 PM
I'm doing GP Oakland this weekend and I'll have all day to kill on Friday. I plan on doing a lot of win a boxes and the legacy challenge. I'm still on the blightsteel plan, I like the free wins too much. :cool:

metelhead
08-20-2013, 01:19 PM
1st- heck of a fun deck!

I haven't yet played the deck in competition, but have playtested and noticed a couple things....finding the right combo on 'lock' pieces seem critical, but at the same time choosing those pieces that don't hose yourself at the same time is a bit of a challenge.... for instants; 'Top' almost seems essential to gathering and filtering, but playing CoV @ 1 is pretty key on alot of MU's too....Blood Moon is a hoser, but I have found it hoses me just as much as my opponent...nothing like turning my Tomb/Sandstone into basics when Seething song in hand.. (and if I bring it down later, then it just really negates the point of using it to begin with...maybe I'm not using it correctly?).... So this brings me to putting BM and CoV into the Board and running Defense Grid and 3sphere main....is that enough, IDK...

Another thought- pyromancy just isn't doing it for me...but I was thinking about testing out 2 Fury of the Horde in its place (you can play it with Sneak and TTB, correct?)

***** I decided to cut 3 of the 'Tops' and put gitaxian probes in their place- quite an improvement!!! Not only do I see what I'm up against, but draw is great! I may actually cut the last top for anoth probe depending on testing.

Josh

hdeck12
08-21-2013, 11:59 PM
Currently running 4 CoV, 3 Moon, 1 3sphere, 0 SDT MB; 3 3sphere, 1 moon 1 SDT SB.

@metalhead: Don't waste your time with Fury of the horde. It'd be a sweet play, I'll give you that, but it's overkill. If you resolve one sneak effect, you should win the game. Emrakul wipes their board, Wurm deals ~30 damage, griselbrand gives you one or both of the other two. You're turning a 5 card (3 lands/2 lands + song/land + guide or petal + song, Sneak effect, Creature) combo into an 8 card (all of those 5 carders plus Fury and 2 red cards) combo without speeding the combo up, slowing the opponent down, OR adding library manipulation. As for moon, play it ASAP. If you have other options AND they have access to colored mana (fetch, basic, or deathrite + lands in the graveyard) then don't waste your resources and cast your real spells. It's main purposes are; 1.lock your opponent out of the game, 2.disable their Karakas or Wasteland/ Rishadan Port. After that, it doesn't do much. I haven't tried Gitaxian Probe yet. It seems great but I can't convince myself to cut a real card for it. It really messes up the way I mulligan which is hard enough for "stompy" as it is. But I'll try anything twice, so soon I'll try a list with a set of them. Keep us updated on how it works out! As for pyromancy, it's pretty terrible against most decks. As a one of, I can usually convince someone to blow a Force of Will on it after pointing out how many cards are in my hand and what the probability their CMC is 'a lot' is. And sometimes for 10 mana(4, 3, 3) it deals lethal. I side it out 90% of the time, but until I find a 'must counter' 4 drop, it'll probably stay as a 1 of. This spot could easily be a titan or wurmcoil. Whatever you choose, it should be a castable threat that can race a delver, and preferably 4CMC or less. There's a lot of love for Koth of the Hammer out there, but I don't think he does enough in the starting 60.

@HansonWK: There's nothing wrong with playing Wurmcoil Engine in one of these lists. Coil helps make up for the Ancient Tomb damage, is an 'almost' acceptable sneak target, and gives you another out to Reanimator/Iona, Shield of Emeria(worst matchup). I prefer Titan because he impacts the board when you play him, deals with two of our problem cards Spell Pierce and Gaddock Teeg, is a two turn faster clock than coil, and is the stone cold nuts against one of the more popular decks: elves.

xdavisx
08-22-2013, 01:10 AM
i'm on the all dudes plan this weekend

4 sandstone needle
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
8 mountain

1 lotus petal
4 simian spirit guide
4 seething song

4 sneak attack
4 through the breach
2 pyromancy

1 worldspine wurm
4 emrakul, the aeons torn
3 griselbrand
4 blightsteel colossus

3 inferno titan

4 chalice of the void
3 blood moon

sideboard
1 grafdigger's care
2 pyroblast
1 koth of the hammer
3 trinisphere
2 volcanic fallout
3 defense grid
1 word of seizing
2 chaos warp

kingtk3
08-22-2013, 12:07 PM
Good luck and tell us how it'll go!

hdeck12
08-22-2013, 01:06 PM
Good Luck Davis...I wanna hear a sweet Word of Seizing story (and of course results) when you get back!

xdavisx
08-22-2013, 03:25 PM
mos def i'll post some results. quick thought, is defense grid and trinisphere overkill in the sideboard? trinisphere does pretty much the same thing as defense grid. any suggestions for a replacement?

hdeck12
08-22-2013, 03:54 PM
Not off the top of my head, but even though they do sorta the same thing, I use them for different matchups. Spheres for Unfair Decks, Grids for Fair decks. Sphere is more about stopping the opponent from killing us, Grid is about stopping the opponent from stopping us. REB is a good sub for grid. You just have to side out your chalices when they come in.

metelhead
08-22-2013, 06:17 PM
Currently running 4 CoV, 3 Moon, 1 3sphere, 0 SDT MB; 3 3sphere, 1 moon 1 SDT SB.

@metalhead: Don't waste your time with Fury of the horde. It'd be a sweet play, I'll give you that, but it's overkill. If you resolve one sneak effect, you should win the game. Emrakul wipes their board, Wurm deals ~30 damage, griselbrand gives you one or both of the other two. You're turning a 5 card (3 lands/2 lands + song/land + guide or petal + song, Sneak effect, Creature) combo into an 8 card (all of those 5 carders plus Fury and 2 red cards) combo without speeding the combo up, slowing the opponent down, OR adding library manipulation. As for moon, play it ASAP. If you have other options AND they have access to colored mana (fetch, basic, or deathrite + lands in the graveyard) then don't waste your resources and cast your real spells. It's main purposes are; 1.lock your opponent out of the game, 2.disable their Karakas or Wasteland/ Rishadan Port. After that, it doesn't do much. I haven't tried Gitaxian Probe yet. It seems great but I can't convince myself to cut a real card for it. It really messes up the way I mulligan which is hard enough for "stompy" as it is. But I'll try anything twice, so soon I'll try a list with a set of them. Keep us updated on how it works out! As for pyromancy, it's pretty terrible against most decks. As a one of, I can usually convince someone to blow a Force of Will on it after pointing out how many cards are in my hand and what the probability their CMC is 'a lot' is. And sometimes for 10 mana(4, 3, 3) it deals lethal. I side it out 90% of the time, but until I find a 'must counter' 4 drop, it'll probably stay as a 1 of. This spot could easily be a titan or wurmcoil. Whatever you choose, it should be a castable threat that can race a delver, and preferably 4CMC or less. There's a lot of love for Koth of the Hammer out there, but I don't think he does enough in the starting 60.

@HansonWK: There's nothing wrong with playing Wurmcoil Engine in one of these lists. Coil helps make up for the Ancient Tomb damage, is an 'almost' acceptable sneak target, and gives you another out to Reanimator/Iona, Shield of Emeria(worst matchup). I prefer Titan because he impacts the board when you play him, deals with two of our problem cards Spell Pierce and Gaddock Teeg, is a two turn faster clock than coil, and is the stone cold nuts against one of the more popular decks: elves.


Thanks for the response.....Yeah I knew Fury was just more of a Magic Xmasland, but worth a mention I guess. I need to experiment more with Blood Moon match ups- and give it a fair shake....but for now its in my Board. thx

CML
08-24-2013, 05:10 AM
YO so I'm playing this deck at a big tournament on Sunday because Fish hates it when the Delver players are smart enough to play equipment, Plow, and Lavamancer. Also it can't beat that dumb mono-U deck, I hate it when you can't waste combo decks

I'm expecting the typical Pacific-Northwest mishmash of blue players who are aggressive, blue players who are controlling, and blue players who like combo.

Bearing in mind this Blue meta please help me make my list not suck

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Worldspine Wurm
3 Griselbrand
3 Inferno Titan
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach
2 Pyromancy
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Blood Moon
4 Seething Song
1 Lotus Petal
-
5 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Sandstone Needle
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors

--
BORED
--
2 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Trinisphere
2 Defense Grid
2 Pyroclasm
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Grafdigger’s Cage
3 Red Elemental Blast

---

Questions:

-manabase OK?
-so I'd think MD trini would be better than MD blood moon in such a meta, but mono-red combo hero just won the Canadian event with Imperial Painter, a Blood Moon combo deck with an incidental instakill finish. He said he just mooned people and they died. he's kind of an exhibitionist? anyway i was told to do Moon instead and Moon indeed seems right to me
-should we be Kothing instead of Pyromancy in such a meta? I think Koth has gotta be better when we're facing down control, but who knows
-with the 4 tops i want a 6th fetch but who knows if that's right (going down to 4 mountains obv)
-discard seemed like a problem (we need resources to go off), are leylines worth it? (we can usually top em away)
-i passionately hate grafdigger's cage and would jump on a card with decent VORP
-i wanna play some non-zero amount of chaos warps because there's this smug balding man who is probably reading this right now and getting wet at the idea of GSZing for Teeg and laughing as i rip Cage off the top

THANK YOU ALL

Megadeus
08-24-2013, 07:51 AM
Why does no one splash white? Guy at my local runs through our local weekly with a white splash for orims and he gets to play karakas to bounce teeg. It's a hell of a beating

kingtk3
08-24-2013, 09:30 AM
I've never splashed white but I tell you that leyline should be 4 or 0: better to maximize the chalice, which protect against discards too.
Then I'll swap one sandstone for one ancient tomb in order to maximize the opportunity of having 2 mana on turn one (which is good for defense grid too).

As hdeck explains, blood moon is for the fair matchups while trinisphere is for the unfair decks: choose what to main accordingly to your meta but keep at least 3 of each between your 75.

HansonWK
08-24-2013, 09:48 AM
If you are expecting lots of blue, cut the tops and fetches, a stifled fetch can lose games, but more importantly you want to up your hate cards. 4 chalice, 3 trinisphere, 3 blood moon. Blue will have a control will have a hard time if the last 2 resolve, combo will have a hard time if any resolve.

xdavisx
08-24-2013, 12:14 PM
I didn't do so how in the legacy challenge. I went 3-3 then dropped cause it was like 11pm and there still were 2 rounds left. Matches I lost were to mulligans to oblivion and game loss for misregistering my deck :frown: and to fish.

Bright side is there was another big red player doing well! MiniReport will come soon.

hdeck12
08-24-2013, 01:38 PM
@Davis: Weak sauce! Maybe next time you shouldn't mulligan and should just draw good cards from the start ;-)

@Megadeus: Well I guess it wouldn't be "Big Red" then would it. It's definitely an option. I guess the major difference is we're using early mana to lay lock pieces and go of early. The chant version wouldn't be doing anything with its early mana. If you play moon, it'll be difficult to get white, and even if you can afford a basic plains then you still shut off your sol lands while trying to reach an even higher threshold of 6 mana instead of 5. If you play 3 sphere, now you have to get to 8 mana in order to use chant. If you play chalice, then forget about chant. A splash reduces most of the synergy of the deck. I believe there could be some R/W version of sneak attack with E.Tutor/Silence/Blightsteel/STP, but it's an entirely different build than what we've been working on.

@CML: For starters kingtk is correct. IF you play leylines, it's 4 or 0.
1. Your manabase: Looks good, if you stick with tops and want the 6th fetch, you can drop the 4th sandstone. You could also cut the lotus petal for a fetch. However, that gives you one less chance to play your T1 moon which it sounds like you want to be doing as much as possible.
2. Maindeck Moon. Yeah it's sweet. However it's only 50/50 in stopping storm players and does pretty much nothing against "that dumb mono-U deck". If you're trying to beat the blue decks AND want to play top, defense grid will help. 4 maindeck moons is a lot when it can do nothing in some matchups. I recommend 3 in the main, and either a defense grid or a 3sphere.
3. I've given up on Koth. However if you end up with a 4 moon maindeck, he might be ok. I think 1 pyromancy/1 koth is a good split since they both fulfill the role of beating control and are both actually worthless in multiples. Without any way to protect him though he dies to almost any resolved creature.
4. I think 4 mountains is enough, but when you're trying to slam moon as many times as possible, cutting a sandstone might be better as it still comes in tapped under moon, and on the draw giving the opponent two uninterrupted turns is usually enough for them to stick a threat that can race a moon.
5. Discard. I never found discard to be too much of a problem with top in the deck. You have to go easy on mulligans against discard. If you know they're going to open on discard, you can keep worse hands because they'll be trying to disrupt you instead of pressure you. And given time, you can draw right out of it. If you are worried about it though, 4 leylines is a better plan than 2. Just don't expect them to stop storm. Too many times I've brought them in, and mulliganed to them only to see chain of vapors put it right back in my hand and have no way to cast it or brainstorm it away.
6. Grafdiggers cage. Pretty good card no matter how much you hate it. The fact that it covers two bases (grave/GSZ) as one card is hard to let go of. Karakas can do this too a little differently. The two real problems are Iona (grave) and Teeg (GSZ), both of which karakas can bounce. The cage keeps Craterhoof Behomoth from coming out turn two as well. If you cut the leylines for Warps then between warp/pyroclam/inferno titan you can handle teeg. The cage's could become more dedicated grave hate as tormods crypt(preferred) or relic of progenitus(acceptable).
7. Chaos warp: Could take the place of the two leylines.
GOOD LUCK and bring us back a report!
Bonus Advice: You can beat "that dumb mono-U" deck. Just be patient and mulligan to the necessary cards, you're NOT the aggressor in the matchup.

CML
08-25-2013, 03:00 AM
A MILLION THANKS. Time to wake up and murder the world

do you get a game loss for offensive deck names

lordofthepit
08-25-2013, 08:47 PM
-i wanna play some non-zero amount of chaos warps because there's this smug balding man who is probably reading this right now and getting wet at the idea of GSZing for Teeg and laughing as i rip Cage off the top

THANK YOU ALL

Hey CML, how did you do?

I heard that smug, balding guy is 4-0.

whienot
08-26-2013, 12:34 AM
Regarding the white splash:

The white splash isn't really a different deck. Same goals, different means, different perspectives.

I began testing with Chant/Silence as a means of fighting both counterspells and combo. Moons/3sphere are both excellent, but function differently and are dependent on having the correct piece early in the game. Orim's Chant and Silence are redundant disruption/protection, are quite good at what they do and open up more lines of play. For instance: Chant during the upkeep and end step Through the Breach; floating a Silence on the top of the library with SDT against storm; or just Chanting to prevent a potential StP from hitting a Worldspine Wurm. Orim's Chant with Kicker in response to a Goryo's Vengeance targetting Emrakul (Tin Fins) has actually happened. Yay, Legacy.

Chants and Moon/Trinisphere play similar roles (stopping your opponents from playing spells) and fight for the same deck space. Aside from potential sideboard Moons, Chants and Moon/3sphere are mutually exclusive.

Yes, Wasteland is a concern. I make no reservations there. Extra accelerants in the form of Lotus Petal help a little here, in addition to making white mana.

White opens you up to playing Rest in Peace, Oblivion Ring or Wear // Tear out of the board. Wear // Tear is the only one I would still play. I ran Rest in Peace for a while, but Grafdigger's Cage has the benefit of stopping Green Sun's Zenith.


My latest white splash for reference.

Ginger Bomb:


4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Worldspine Wurm
3 Griselbrand

4 Seething Song
4 Lotus Petal
2 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Magma Jet

3 Orim's Chant
3 Silence

4 Ancient Tomb
3 Sandstone Needle
1 City of Traitors
6 Red Fetch
2 Plateau
2 Mountain
1 Karakas


Ultimately, playing white is meta call, but it is a viable option.


Also, try out Magma Jet. It's been nothing but stellar for me.

Koby
08-26-2013, 12:52 AM
Worldspine Wurm + RIP is a sad puppy; but the benefits that RIP gives vs Graveyard decks might be more than enough to warrant it.

Still not sure if playing white is necessary. Blood Moon is a really big draw for running this kind of deck to begin with. Cutting both Moon and Trinisphere to play Silence is a radical enough change that will effect the way matchups go. I like playing Karakas to provide utility (and the herpy derpy Karakas my Emrakul, attack against next turn too plan) however.

whienot
08-26-2013, 10:40 AM
I can't say that playing white is necessary. It is an experiment that has served me well, pushing through counters and Mind Twisting storm players.

There used to be more combo present in my local scene, but lately has turned more mid-rangy. So, I'm currently on a mono red 6 Moon plan main (still playing Karakas). I actually ran into a near mirror match last week and wished I had the chants. He was faster and was my only loss that day.

CML
08-26-2013, 07:53 PM
The tournament was an unadulterated success. Not only did I scrub out with maximum speed, but the smug bald man was dreamcrushed in the semis.

If we're looking to buy up all the Plateaus in circulation and then shoot their price through the roof, is this an OK place to start?

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Worldspine Wurm
2 Griselbrand
2 Inferno Titan
1 Sundering Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine

4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Seething Song
1 Lotus Petal

1 Through the Breach
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Blood Moon
4 Sneak Attack
1 Pyromancy
1 Rest in Peace
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Grim Monolith

3 Sandstone Needle
4 Plateau
4 Arid Mesa
1 Great Furnace
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 City of Traitors
3 Ancient Tomb

---

1 Trinisphere
1 Defense Grid
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Wear // Tear
2 Pyroclasm
2 Red Elemental Blast

danyul
08-26-2013, 09:58 PM
LOL smug bald man. I love it.

Kid
08-27-2013, 12:19 PM
Oy oy!

Got a big tourney in one month.

I was playing the SDT version. But I'm willing to try one version with more locks.
The meta will be mostly RUG Delver / Tempo ***** / Esper / BUG / Team America & a bit of storm.

Any advices? I'm not satified with the SB.
Should I stick to SDT ?

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Griselbrand
4 Worldspine Wurm
3 Inferno Titan

3 Trinisphere
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Seething Song
1 Lotus Petal

4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach
1 Pyromancy

3 Sandstone Needle
3 City of Traitors
5 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Arid Mesa

SB: 3 Pyroclasm
SB: 4 Defense Grid
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 4 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Chaos Warp
SB: 1 Pyromancy

Cheers :)

xdavisx
08-28-2013, 09:34 PM
I'm gonna take the deck for another spin this weekend. Is anarchy worth sideboard consideration, with the added increase in popularity of death and taxes?

CML
08-29-2013, 05:43 AM
SHOOTING THE MOON
A tournament report by: CML



There are many reasons Seattle is a great place to live — great food; the opportunity to hear WotC employees cry like overachieving schoolchildren when you beat them at unsanctioned events; a gender ratio that’s slightly better than a Yukon mining town; beautiful bodies (of water, views of which you can enjoy from your car while stuck in traffic) — but Mirkwood is my favorite time of year. For three months, I hole up at Card Kingdom like some library-bound bore and practice Legacy. I used to do this at another LGS, existing on Doritos, sleeping on sell-through Chronicles commons, defecating out the window, and sweating into the dehumidifier, but when Card Kingdom opened, I became classy. Now I eat grilled cheese at Café Mox, which offers every kind of pleasure except hard alcohol, televised sports, a discotheque, and another gender. Now I sleep on beds of digitized love-letters from OKCupid. Now I defecate on myself when I play Legacy. Now I sweat my friends when they’re in the top 8. Just kidding! After I lost round two, I drove back home. I hope the rest of my car found rides.

But I’m getting ahead of myself. We have an active Eternal scene here. The Legacy players look down upon the Modern players, and the Modern players look down upon themselves. Every Monday a group of grizzled regulars gathers in the windowless dungeon of Card Kingdom to play the format where winning a GP won’t buy you a deck. It’s a cesspit of mediocrity, but I mean this as a high compliment. Legacy is hard, and if you’re mediocre at it, you’ll have a huge edge on the field. “Winning the battle of mistakes” is a phrase that comes to mind.

That Monday I sleeved up a little something different than usual. Merfolk is often a good choice at Card Kingdom, since the field is full of people who think they’re smarter than everyone else and therefore can’t “spot the fish.” The UWR Delver list was giving me fits, though, so rather than be negative about it I decided to praise the gods for making tempo players too stupid to not include fringe playables like Swords to Plowshares, Stoneforge Mystic, and Grim Lavamancer, while relying on Green graveyard-based creatures that do nothing against cards nobody plays like Rest in Peace, instead. My sunny disposition wasn’t going to turn my fish into a playable deck, though, so I ordered something a little different. “Batman” is a new addition to our Legacy group who just graduated high school and somehow has all the Legacy staples ever. He’s sassy, he’s 18, and he’s rich. In other words, he’s perfect — except it’s a he. I like to listen to Caleb Durward’s CFB videos because I no longer have to imagine what it’s like to sound like a Muppet on helium, and “Fish With Shroud” sounded like a good way to stop getting Plowed, so I sleeved up this:



MEATHOOKS

3 Wasteland
3 Mutavault
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
8 Blue fetches / Windswept Heaths

4 Muscle Sliver
4 Sinew Sliver
4 Predatory Silver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Galerider Sliver

2 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial

1 Force of Will
1 Cursed Totem
2 Spell Pierce
2 Harmonic Sliver
1 Life from the Loam
2 Rest in Peace
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Meddling Mage
2 Gaddock Teeg



The tournament started auspiciously, with a win against a balding loudmouth who uses Magic like Joyce used literature — as an escape from his failed medical studies. Between that and his choice of the stone-unplayable Miracles, this round was basically a bye. Meanwhile, a pudgy Asian man with a pretentious wrist brace was rubbing his nose like a Rick James whose dealer had run out of Claritin, and a suburbanite with a goatee was trying to convince himself Progenitus was good against a field of Terminus and Liliana. I lost a round to whatever, beat a Tezzerator deck, then lost another round to whatever. On Tuesday we tested at my house with Batman and a sleazy cable salesman, and though I won one game against Punishing Jund with a lone Galerider Sliver on the board, the deck sucked. It turns out basic Islands and abusing Standstill are a nice upside to certain Vial aggro strategies. Who knew? I tried UWR myself, but cantripping turned out to be too hard, because I am an imbecile.

We Pondered our options and Brainstormed easy deck ideas, but it wasn’t until Batman said “mono-Red” that the choice seemed Preordained:



MONO-RED COMBO (“Shooting the Moon”)

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Worldspine Worm
3 Griselbrand
3 Inferno Titan
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Sneak Attack
4 Through the Breach
2 Pyromancy
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Blood Moon
4 Seething Song
1 Lotus Petal
-
5 Mountain
4 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Sandstone Needle
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
-

3 Trinisphere
2 Defense Grid
3 Pyroclasm
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Grafdigger’s Cage
3 Red Elemental Blast



I brought the deck to Card Kingdom FNM, the best place to not play FNM and feel superior for playing Legacy and drinking seven-dollar craft pear ciders. My friend Aaron was there. I squashed his Shardless like a BUG, with Sneak Attack playing the part of Impromptu RAID. The next two days I pilloried Punishing Jund and tied with Miracles (again, unplayable, but if people didn’t play unplayable decks there would be no Legacy).

The morning of Mirkwood I woke up early — 10:40 — and drove my van-load of three up to Arlington. Arlington is a small town halfway to Canada; at least when I usually drive in that direction, there is the promise of frat parties or, past that, a new, barbarian country that feels like America in the nineties. The tournament site (“Mirkwood,” presumably after the title tournament — not sure where they came up with that one) was nice: with its ramshackle podium, heirloom instruments, delicious food, in-cel nerds, etc. it felt like the Seattle of my adolescence. I must give unironic props to Joe Bono and some other people for running a great event.

In round 1 I was paired against a random playing Death and Taxes. I’d seen him somewhere before, but I didn’t remember where — my best guess is Round 8 of April’s Legacy Open. His eyes were bloodshot from fatigue, and they turned even redder as I ruined Karakas with more annihilator triggers than Chavez. Death and Taxes: a socialist paradise indeed! Then some other stuff happened. Maybe I’ll splash Black for Dread of Night next time.

In round 2 I played Tim “OMGClayAkhen” Aten. After I showed in Sneak Attack and squished his Demon with a couple of Worldspine Wurms, he morosely remarked it was “the second game in a row [he]’d had turn-two Show and Tell and lost.” In game two I kept an opener of some spells and some lands that were Ancient Tombs. I spun the dreidel over and over again, but no Ararat would spring forth from my library. Meanwhile, Tim was discarding. There is nothing quite like going to four life off your dreidels and not finding the promised land, just another Tomb. It was in that moment that I understood the ordeal of Anne Frank. In game three I had the death wish, so I just lost to countermagic and Jace. Who the hell boards in Jace against mono-red? He can’t even survive after bouncing a Goblin Guide.

On the drive home, there was traffic near Everett, which pissed me off because nobody should live there. I then went to the soccer game, watched the Sounders win, and got called a racist by a joyless White cow — it was nearly a perfect tournament; the only thing missing was a Portland Timbers career-starting injury. (Ha! Just a little Portland-unemployment joke for you.) It must have been weird to be a Portland fan at the Clink, it’s not like poetry slams attract crowds of 65,000. After that, I got kinda drunk with Aaron and his girlfriend and lamented my perpetual misfortune. Someone texted me that three of the Card-Kingdom suburbanites had made Top 4 (including the insufferable former med student), so I drank some more and forgot about it, until I was assured they hadn’t won, so I remembered it and typed it here. I would play Shooting the Moon again in a heartbeat, but Batman has already promised to build me Waterfalls. Cascade is a nice mountain range, and cataracts are clouding my Ancestral Vision. I predict it’ll be a good choice after Theros, too, since the last big set had only a marginal impact on Legacy. You might even be able to splash White for a pointless Enlightened Tutor package. If you do, play four Plateaus — they’re not gonna get any cheaper, though they might just rise for a bit, then level off.

Keep it dusty,
CML

hdeck12
08-30-2013, 10:26 AM
I'm gonna take the deck for another spin this weekend. Is anarchy worth sideboard consideration, with the added increase in popularity of death and taxes?

No. Go with sulfur elemental if you're worried about D&T. It's at least decent in some other matchups. Anarchy is way too narrow. You'll mindf*** a lot of people flashing in a 3/x dude to kill attackers. I've never really had a problem with the D&T match, just pack your moons and songs. They win by controlling your manabase early. Thalia does much less against us then it does against other combos.

xdavisx
08-30-2013, 03:10 PM
No. Go with sulfur elemental if you're worried about D&T. It's at least decent in some other matchups. Anarchy is way too narrow. You'll mindf*** a lot of people flashing in a 3/x dude to kill attackers. I've never really had a problem with the D&T match, just pack your moons and songs. They win by controlling your manabase early. Thalia does much less against us then it does against other combos.

cool, i like that more. my friend sent me this, which one of you clowns is this? :laugh:

in reid dukes last article: "I even faced a deck at the last Legacy tournament I entered that was Mono-Red Sneak Attack. This player found it fun to kill me by Sneak Attacking Worldspine Wurm and then making three 5/5 trampling tokens. While certainly not as consistent as its U/R cousin, this beast of a deck has a lot more leisure to play with its food when it can lock its opponents out of the game with a turn 1 Blood Moon."