Purpose of Modern

[KobeBryan]

Wasn't modern the format where we were supposed to have equal access to all the cards?

And the price barrier was supposed to be eliminated?

What happened to this purpose?

[(nameless one)]

Wasn't modern the format where we were supposed to have equal access to all the cards?

And the price barrier was supposed to be eliminated?

What happened to this purpose?

Players happen. Everyone speculated, dried up the market and because theres a 'demand' with the same supply, the value goes up.

Best example in Legacy: Scroll Rack

Best example in Modern: Prismatic Omen

[KobeBryan]

Players happen. Everyone speculated, dried up the market and because theres a 'demand' with the same supply, the value goes up.

Best example in Legacy: Scroll Rack

Best example in Modern: Prismatic Omen

Shouldn't they start reprinting these cards like they promised?

No wonder this is a dying format.

[xfxf]

Have patience young padawan, they're going to reprint stuff. At the last comiccon panel about RtR I think they made it clear enough that they don't see a future for Legacy long term and will wait 'till it dies due to the price inflation. Meanwhile they are going to support Modern to the best of their abilities. They are just trying to figure out how to approach this as I see it.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Wasn't modern the format where we were supposed to have equal access to all the cards?
No? The business model of all trading card games is to sell cards at varying degrees of quality with the good ones being harder to find (or, "rare") and the bad ones being easy to find (or, "common"). This makes the price of the rare ones to go up compared to the less rare ones. Price is a barrier people need to go through to play any format of any card game.



And the price barrier was supposed to be eliminated?
Have you seen the price it costs to play standard??? How is price barrier going to magically go away just because it's a less old format than legacy?


What happened to this purpose?

It never existed in the first place.

[KobeBryan]

Have patience young padawan, they're going to reprint stuff. At the last comiccon panel about RtR I think they made it clear enough that they don't see a future for Legacy long term and will wait 'till it dies due to the price inflation. Meanwhile they are going to support Modern to the best of their abilities. They are just trying to figure out how to approach this as I see it.


Tell that to star city games who puts on legacy tournaments every weekend.

[Sims]

Tell that to star city games who puts on legacy tournaments every weekend.

Haters gunna hate.

[rxavage]

Haters gunna hate.

Why are modern fans so jealous of legacy and hope for it's demise? I can't afford vintage atm but I don't constantly put the format down or wish for it to be dead.

[xfxf]

If Vintage is the milf who is way out of your league you're still doing pretty well with Legacy which is kind of like the hot sophomore chick full of surprises. Modern is really the fat friend of that hot chick.

Having said that even though I still think Wizards really created Modern with the hopes of making it THE eternal format in which they have control over the secondary market and getting their share of revenue from eternal players, I don't see how Legacy would die out with the current supply of cards. Even if its growth would be capped at its current point it would still take years for the format to really die out and get overwhelmed by the number of Modern players.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Why are modern fans so jealous of legacy and hope for it's demise? I can't afford vintage atm but I don't constantly put the format down or wish for it to be dead.

You got that from "Haters gunna hate"? Why does everything have to be Us vs. Them mentality?

I enjoy both formats. Do I have to pick which of the two I want to see die? How is this a logical statement at all?

I swear, the easiest way to tell which people on this forum aren't ever worth listening to is to look at which people go into threads with the intent to post shit like "why would I play this, it's terrible..." or "LEGACY RULEZZ MODERN DRULESZZ" Thank you for making yourselves so easily identifiable.

[rxavage]

You got that from "Haters gunna hate"? Why does everything have to be Us vs. Them mentality?

I enjoy both formats. Do I have to pick which of the two I want to see die? How is this a logical statement at all?

I swear, the easiest way to tell which people on this forum aren't ever worth listening to is to look at which people go into threads with the intent to post shit like "why would I play this, it's terrible..." or "LEGACY RULEZZ MODERN DRULESZZ" Thank you for making yourselves so easily identifiable.

Hypocrite much? I didn't think it was that hard to see that my response was an addendum to the "haterz gonna hate" comment. I used vintage as my example instead of modern because it seemed too repetitive. Anyways, thank you for not really saying anything I didn't and exposing yourself.

I play all formats btw. And who said anything about picking a format to die? Did you even read what I wrote?


Also, my previous post was a general observation of attitude on other forums. I may have misunderstood the tone and direction of the discussion which lead to a hasty and irrelevant comment but you definitely took it out of context.

[kwis]

The real purpose of Modern is wizards trying to get rid of Ichorid. =(

Prices will always be a supply and demand game, even if wizards keeps reprinting certain cards. You'd honestly be better off playing 75 proxy Vintage/Legacy and having a far healthier format than playing modern just because you think the prices might stay down. Of course this is highly unlikely because then wizards and store owners couldn't make money.

[(nameless one)]

Outside of Duals and Fringe archetypes (such as Lands and Candelabra-powdered decks), I don't think Legacy will die. Why? WotC will always make mistakes that will translate into a new broken decks in Legacy.

When I first started playing Legacy, AnT didn't exist, Merfolk was just a casual deck, green was the weakest color, Tarmogoyf was $2, Standstill was the control card, Goblin Lackey needs to be banned and people laughed at you when your 75 had Show and Tell.

For all we know, Rats.dec might be the next tribal deck, Food Chain.dec is a DtB in the making or Trade Route gets banned in the near future.

Nothing against Modern but one of the reason that makes Legacy Legacy is because of the intricate interaction between the old and the new. Fine example would be Rest in Peace and Helm of Obedience. Those cards are 16 years apart.

[Lord Seth]

Have you seen the price it costs to play standard???To play a competitive deck? Less than buying one set of one dual land.

[chags]

To play a competitive deck? Less than buying one set of one dual land.


Obviously legacy is significantly more expensive then modern or standard, I believe his comment was meant to be a comparison of modern and standard prices. People complain that modern still costs too much yet willingly shill out for standard decks (most of which contain modern staples) at the same prices if not higher.

[xfxf]

I did a rough calculation today. I initially had FoWs and Wastelands when I started shelling out for Legacy and it took around $2000 to complete a set of U. Seas, a set of Tundras, 3 Volcanics, 3 Trops, 3 Jaces, a set of Goyfs, and a set of all blue fetches. So it means with around $2k you can basically get the foundation for all the most expensive decks. This foundation will enable you to play multiple top-tier decks over multiple years. As far as I understand Standard decks cost around $300-$500 at most. If Modern is going to be a financially viable alternative as an eternal format I think you should be able to complete a similar foundation for about $1k. I don't know if it's currently possible, but can someone chime in?

[Phoenix Ignition]

If Modern is going to be a financially viable alternative as an eternal format I think you should be able to complete a similar foundation for about $1k. I don't know if it's currently possible, but can someone chime in?

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1044341

Average of $923 for Yasooka's Player's Championship winning deck. And you can definitely find these cards cheaper than tcgplayer's prices if you go to ebay.

[xfxf]

Cool, so I think Modern is serving its purpose then. What's the big deal?

Look, Magic is a hobby. A game. You spend how much money on a PC/PS3/Xbox + games a year? Think about how long that investment will take you in MtG in an eternal format. Plus the collector's satisfaction and the trips and the personalization etc. etc. I don't think spending around $2k for an eternal format initially and then just updating it for around $50-$100 in 3-12 months is too much. Only thing I know is that I don't play Fallout 2 anymore but I still play MtG and those duals are x10 what they cost back then. I know I spent around $2k back then to build my computer and it's weaker than my mobile phone today. If you are getting into Modern just for the finances buy duals instead, Legacy won't die. If you like Modern, let its purpose be fun for you.

[Lord Seth]

Cool, so I think Modern is serving its purpose then. What's the big deal?Tarmogoyf still costs about as much as a dual land. If they want Modern to be Legacy without the accessibility issues, that card desperately needs a reprint. And yes, Tarmogoyf is nowhere near as essential to playing in the format as a dual land is, but it just sticks out like a sore thumb.

Though it does look like they're finally starting on the reason it was created, a format in which they could reprint cards that have accessibility issues, as shown by the shockland reprints (which actually may slightly help out Legacy as it means they function better as budget alternatives to the duals). But until Tarmogoyf's price is at least cut in half, Modern really isn't fulfilling its purpose.

It is true that Modern is cheaper than Legacy. But I think an issue is that it isn't cheaper enough to justify really getting into it.

[xfxf]

Patience young padawan (another one). They'll reprint it. You see, a year when you're 23 isn't the same as a year when you're 30. You'll be playing Magic when you're 30, secret from your wife or fiance I promise. Don't worry and just get the cards as cheap as possible. Cheers!

[Phoenix Ignition]

But until Tarmogoyf's price is at least cut in half, Modern really isn't fulfilling its purpose.

Really? You said it yourself it isn't even necessary to play the format. The deck I linked had it in there so it would be one of the more expensive Modern decks, but honestly the UWR delver deck is just as good and only ~700. Basically any Tron deck can beat any Tarmogoyf deck (except I think Jund), and combo decks are still pretty good. I'm not sure how the new set is going to affect the metagame, but certainly the non Tarmogoyf decks aren't going to all be destroyed.

I am all for reprinting of all cards (including legacy money sinks, but Modern seems pretty easily accessible.

[Lord Seth]

Really? You said it yourself it isn't even necessary to play the format.And then I said some other things to qualify that which you seem to have ignored.

The card is still $100 where the second most expensive card is about $40 (which is probably too much also). And the purpose of Modern was stated that they wanted to make a non-rotating format where they could reprint staples to avoid accessibility issues. Thus, my statement holds true: Until we have a Tarmogoyf reprint (or alternatively, they print something even better), that purpose isn't being fulfilled. You can't say the format's purpose is being fulfilled when a card like Tarmogoyf exists in it.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I read the rest of what you said, but I don't follow your point. That's like saying "Legacy isn't an accessible format because Candelabra of Tawnos costs $250." Sure, there are expensive cards in either format, but it being accessible, and cheap enough for most people to get into, shouldn't depend on the most expensive card that is used in less than 50% of decks.

[Lord Seth]

I read the rest of what you said, but I don't follow your point. That's like saying "Legacy isn't an accessible format because Candelabra of Tawnos costs $250."Legacy isn't a particularly accessible format, so your point is moot. Also, High Tide is a fairly fringe deck, whereas decks like Jund or RUG Delver are tier 1 in Modern.


Sure, there are expensive cards in either format, but it being accessible, and cheap enough for most people to get into, shouldn't depend on the most expensive card that is used in less than 50% of decks.It does if they're interested in playing one of the decks that uses it.

The shocklands being reprinted is doing a good job at making decks across the board more accessible (and thus has brought Modern closer to its purpose), but until the obvious accessibility problems with Tarmogoyf (and Dark Confidant, really) are fixed, the format still isn't fulfilling the role it's supposed to.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I must have missed the press release where Wizards touted Modern as "the new format that is accessible for everyone!"

I thought they just wanted to replace Extended with a format that was easier to follow (nothing rotates), was eternal (no rebuy costs for land bases like Standard and deck archtypes are more stagnant from not rotating), and due mainly to these previous points, would attract more attention and excitement since you can play the decks for PTQ season every year with fairly stable deck types.

Did they actually say they wanted a format that was cheap to play? I never saw that, but don't read all of their press releases. Also, are we arbitrarily saying that $900 for the most expensive deck possible is something that is prohibitive? What price isn't? Why does Dark Confidant also fit the "too expensive for people to play" category (keeping in mind these cards are heavily playable in Legacy)?

[Lord Seth]

Did they actually say they wanted a format that was cheap to play? I never saw that, but don't read all of their press releases.Well you must have missed what I believe was the very first Modern press release ever, found here:
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/144

Let's take a look at a rather relevant quote.

"A long time ago, we promised not to reprint a certain list of cards. Some of those cards have become important parts of tournament Legacy. Although we regret that promise now, it is a promise that we made, and we intend to keep it.

Much of the appeal of Legacy is that the format does not rotate. However, as Legacy becomes more and more popular, the relative supply of these cards as compared to the size of the audience that wants to play with them is only going down. This makes the format less and less accessible to new entrants over time.

Many of you have recognized this, and called for a non-rotating format that does not contain these cards."

Mark Rosewater states this more directly on his tumblr:
"One of the driving forces behind creating the modern format is that we are allowed to reprint all of the cards in it."

And from Aaron Forsythe:
"The Extended format was flagging. On the flipside, the Legacy format was booming, but growth of it is constrained by our reprint policy, which was making card availability a bear."

So as you can see, the purpose of Modern was to be a Legacy-esque format that doesn't have Reserved List cards, so they can be reprinted to avoid the accessibility problems of Legacy. Which means that if those cards AREN'T being reprinted, then Modern isn't fulfilling that purpose.

[Phoenix Ignition]

So as you can see, the purpose of Modern was to be a Legacy-esque format that doesn't have Reserved List cards, so they can be reprinted to avoid the accessibility problems of Legacy. Which means that if those cards AREN'T being reprinted, then Modern isn't fulfilling that purpose.

The first sentence is correct, but it does not necessarily imply the second. It is fulfilling its passive purpose of being a format where all the cards can be reprinted. There do not have to be reprints, however, to make the first sentence true.

[hyperchord24]

I appreciate playing in a format without Force of Will and Wasteland. But that's just me. I might dabble in standard, but I like a bigger card pool. Cost isn't too surprising. There will always be the "best decks" in a format and the chace rares will always cost money. If accesibility was an issue, wouldn't wizards just print more cards? Or is that a subject of a whole other disscision?

[ahg113]

As an off-again, on-again player who had Legacy turn me into a more consistent player, I appreciate and like Modern too. I kinda wish they went a tad further back (Apocalypse anyone?) but understand what Wizards decided to do as they did.

For me, Modern is Legacy-light. Price of cards be damned, there's always going to be chase/expensive/elusive cards for all the stated purposes, no matter the format.

I have a lot of fun in Modern due to the lack of cheap/free counterspells, as blue is often my least favorite color.

The restricted card pool is also fun. In a top-down view, the decks are more restricted in Modern than Legacy, although much more wide-open than Standard. The types of decks that a player with my disposition gravitates towards are much more viable in Modern, than Legacy (Mono B Discard, Necrotic Ooze Combo.) The lack of much attention to it by Pro players is also great atm because there isn't as much net decking.

I don't think they have to reprint Goyf, or other chase cards. RIP is a brand new nerf card for Goyf, as well as Deadbore or Abrubt Decay. Old answers like Path to Smother/Doomblade/Go For the Throat/Victimize, Spell Snare, or Vapor Snag are all Modern legal too. Red get's shafted, but Green has Beast Within so...

It's still a new format, think out the box and get creative with answers to problems, or find some new way to make problems yourself. The reprint/no-print isn't always the answer.

Modern was created because Extended was the lame. It gave older players a reason to get back into the game- an age segment that would've started around 8th, and quit near Kawigama. Not old enough to get the sweet Urza era cards, but played a bit longer than current standard. Your cards (aside from blips like Glimpse of Nature) are no longer dead! Yay! They have trade value again, yay!

[alderon666]

I really think they should be a little more trigger happy on the repring thing. I mean, what do they lose by sneaking a modern staple into a set?

It doesn't even need to be completely into flavor. I could easily have seen Dark Confidant snuck into RtR and made perfect sense. I could easily have seen Goyf snuck into Innistrad or Dark Ascension, with the whole grave thing.

I think Magic should be less the collector's game and more the player's game. Just reprint any card that hits a ridiculous price and be done with it. People that actually play the game, attend to tournaments, buy acessories, go to stores will be very happy.

[ahg113]

People that actually play the game, attend to tournaments, buy acessories, go to stores will be very happy.

While there may be many people who don't participate in these activities regularly, there are still a lot of folks that do.

[suddo]

Patience young padawan (another one). They'll reprint it. You see, a year when you're 23 isn't the same as a year when you're 30. You'll be playing Magic when you're 30, secret from your wife or fiance I promise. Don't worry and just get the cards as cheap as possible. Cheers!

Didn't they state once that they would never reprint tarmagoyf is this one of those grapevine things that isn't actually true.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I really think they should be a little more trigger happy on the repring thing. I mean, what do they lose by sneaking a modern staple into a set?

You mean like how they are reprinting literally every shock land in the same set? How about we all just cool down for a few sets, they don't need to reprint every single good modern card in every set.

[alderon666]

You mean like how they are reprinting literally every shock land in the same set? How about we all just cool down for a few sets, they don't need to reprint every single good modern card in every set.

The promise of reprints was made a long time ago. The dual lands are long overdue.

[ahg113]

The promise of reprints was made a long time ago. The dual lands are long overdue.

Goyf and Bob are not staples, lands are. I agree with you on the lands being overdue, but that's not to say every good spell needs to be reprinted post-haste.

[TeenieBopper]

The promise of reprints was made a long time ago. The dual lands are long overdue.

Modern has only been a format for what, a year and a half? They reprinted the shocklands at the earliest possible time (save, possibly, M13).

[Phoenix Ignition]

As someone who also never plays Standard, I commend your total disregard for it, but if they reprint all of the Modern good cards in a cycle, Standard will just be Modern without fetchlands (or should those also be reprinted?).

[xfxf]

I think Magic should be less the collector's game and more the player's game. Just reprint any card that hits a ridiculous price and be done with it. People that actually play the game, attend to tournaments, buy acessories, go to stores will be very happy.

I agree with this. I have all the expensive Legacy stuff I'd need (and a single piece of P9, proud owner hehe) but still I wouldn't mind the reprints of the old stuff (never gonna happen, I know) because I'm sick of people playing Merfolks for budget reasons (just kidding). But really, in my hometown nobody plays Legacy because it's too expensive. Also Vintage, a dead format which can't get its monthly tournaments of the ground in a lot of cities because of availability.. Yes my cards are wort a lot of money but I also want them to be worth a lot of play value as well (in the future too, don't die Legacy). On another note, why don't people play Classic format in paper? (ok, don't answer that).

[Lord Seth]

Didn't they state once that they would never reprint tarmagoyf is this one of those grapevine things that isn't actually true.From Mark Rosewater:
"We have never promised that we wouldn’t reprint Tarmogoyf. The only thing we’ve ever promised never to reprint is the Reserved List."
The promise of reprints was made a long time ago. The dual lands are long overdue.I feel I should be fair to Wizards of the Coast here. They begin designing sets years in advance (the 2014-2015 block apparently entered pre-design a few months ago), so they knew this set would be Return to Ravnica years ago. I don't know if they were planning to bring back the shocklands anyway or if they decided to bring them back because of Modern, but at the time of the Modern announcement (2011) they certainly knew this was Return to Ravnica, and what better time than this to reprint them? It makes a lot of sense to save them for Return to Ravnica than to try to awkwardly force them into the Innistrad block at the last minute.


As someone who also never plays Standard, I commend your total disregard for it, but if they reprint all of the Modern good cards in a cycle, Standard will just be Modern without fetchlands (or should those also be reprinted?).Fetchlands are an interesting question. The issue is that the original batch--the allied fetchlands--aren't legal in Modern, meaning reprinting them would be adding them to the format rather than just bringing back cards that are already legal. I personally think that would be a great idea to reprint the allied fetchlands (both because it makes them easier to get and also because I wouldn't mind having more fetchland options in Modern), but maybe Wizards of the Coast sees it differently.

One thing is pretty certain though. Fetchland reprints will likely not be occurring as long as the shocklands are Standard legal.

[LeaPlath]

If they were to reprint Tarmy, with people knowing what an amazing card it is, wouldn't standard just end up Goyf.dec?

If they were to reprint Goyf, it would surely be as a seperate product. One in a $30-40 dollars box like the premium deck series and WoTC will be adding an extention to its pool made of money.

[TeenieBopper]

If they were to reprint Tarmy, with people knowing what an amazing card it is, wouldn't standard just end up Goyf.dec?
.

Without fetches and cheap cantrips? Doubtful. In current standard, it'd most often be a 2/3 or 3/4 (creature, instant, sorcery). Granted, it's above the curve, but it isn't game breaking. Every green deck would probably play it, but not every deck would be splashing green just for Tarmagoyf.

[Esper3k]

Evolving Wilds and Ghost Quarter let you get lands into the yard as well, so I could see Goyf being a 4/5 in Standard. Lack of 1-2 CMC removal that can really deal with him would make it rough to fight against too.

[TeenieBopper]

Abrupt Decay. Final Price. Sorcery Terminate. Oblivion Pulse.

[Lord Seth]

If they were to reprint Tarmy, with people knowing what an amazing card it is, wouldn't standard just end up Goyf.dec?Standard wasn't Goyf.dec when Tarmogoyf was originally printed, and the overall power creep in creatures since then makes it less likely to this time around.
Abrupt Decay. Final Price. Sorcery Terminate. Oblivion Pulse.While Abrupt Decay and Dreadbore (the "sorcery Terminate") do exist, what are Oblivion Pulse and Final Price?

[ahg113]

what are Oblivion Pulse and Final Price?

Guessing it's Detention Sphere and Ultimate Price...

[Esper3k]

Fair enough, there's still solid removal in Standard, but I still think if Tarmogoyf were reprinted, it'd be pretty prevalent in the format and fairly easy to splash especially given how good Standard manabases are going to be.

[TeenieBopper]

There's also Victim of Night and Tragic Slip.

If it were reprinted, it'd definitely see play. But would it be any more prevalent than Delver has been over the past year? I doubt it.

It's also worth pointing out that Evolving Wilds doesn't get the shocklands, so any deck playing those is probably only two colors; three tops. With the plethora of removal in the format, and no way to really abuse it, I'd bet money that Tarmagoyf wouldn't be nearly as ubiquitous as it was in Legacy, say, four years ago.

[Esper3k]

There's also Victim of Night and Tragic Slip.

If it were reprinted, it'd definitely see play. But would it be any more prevalent than Delver has been over the past year? I doubt it.

It's also worth pointing out that Evolving Wilds doesn't get the shocklands, so any deck playing those is probably only two colors; three tops. With the plethora of removal in the format, and no way to really abuse it, I'd bet money that Tarmagoyf wouldn't be nearly as ubiquitous as it was in Legacy, say, four years ago.

I think it'd see as much play as Delver (probably alongside Delver). Stuff like Victim of Night doesn't see play now in Standard anyways and Tragic Slip is only strong because it kills preflipped Delvers.

Again sure there's removal out there, but given that it sees a bunch of play in Legacy where our removal is significantly better, I think Tarmogoyf would be seen all over the place in Standard.

[joemauer]

It is very doubtful Tarmogofy would run rampant in standard if he was reprinted.

Last time he was in standard he didn't dominate. That was a standard that had less quick creature removal, less graveyard removal, and more burn & cheap creatures like Kird Ape to fit Tarmogofy in a zoo deck.

@this thread: Wizards could reprint Wasteland or Force of Will(in a set or promotional reprint), but they don't. Why is that? They don't care about Legacy or just don't care about the secondary market, perhaps. Have you noticed how new cards being printed invalidate old cards completely. This is not an accident. Wizards is trying to sell new cards. If there market research people are telling them that printing a new situational Time Walk is going to sell more packs than reprinting Force of Will then guess what happens. As for the reprinting of the shocklands, this is an exception rather than a rule. It is the back bone of Modern(Wizards pet format, 2nd only to standard) and well loved land cycle that is very much missed by most players.

I believe wizards was hoping the power that they could reprint any cards in Modern would cause less speculative buying of cards making them overall cheaper.
They said they could reprint these cards not that they would reprint these cards that are Modern legal.

[Lord Seth]

@this thread: Wizards could reprint Wasteland or Force of Will(in a set or promotional reprint), but they don't.They did reprint Wasteland in a promotional reprint.
Why is that?In a regular set? Well, they might be fine in Legacy, but they're too powerful for Standard or Modern, and putting them in a Standard set would introduce them into both formats. As for the promotional question? Well, as pointed out, Wasteland has been reprinted for promotional purposes (twice, for that matter), though I am a little surprised after all this time they haven't put Force of Will in anything.

[joemauer]

They did reprint Wasteland in a promotional reprint.
I meant a promo more accessible that might affect the price of wasteland such as From the whatever or a duel deck.


In a regular set? Well, they might be fine in Legacy, but they're too powerful for Standard or Modern, and putting them in a Standard set would introduce them into both formats. As for the promotional question? Well, as pointed out, Wasteland has been reprinted for promotional purposes (twice, for that matter), though I am a little surprised after all this time they haven't put Force of Will in anything.
I don't know if you remember but Wasteland and Force of Will were in standard at one point and neither were tearing up the format.

Irregardless, of their previous lackluster runs in Standard both cards could be reprinted right now.

Wasteland could keep greedy mana bases in check and give some kind of reward to mono-colored strategies in Standard. Also, no land destruction exists in Standard, so some crazy and unfair ponzo style deck is very unlikely to emerge.

As for Force of Will, now is a great time for that to come back too. There is currently a lot of good can't be countered cards in Standard: Cavern, Abrupt Decay, and a couple others. Futhermore, Force of Will is bad in formats that are creatures focused rather than spell focused. There are a lot of graveyard cards with recurring or flashback which is also bad for counterspells. Finally, not a lot of permission exists in Standard at the moment so a Force of Will reprint won't cause some overly dominant control deck.

As for either card's affect on the Modern format, I honestly don't know. I admittedly don't have any kind of idea what is going on in that format, but the DCI could just ban either if they wanted to. Why not, right.

[Lord Seth]

I don't know if you remember but Wasteland and Force of Will were in standard at one point and neither were tearing up the format.I'll take your word on that because it's hard to find decklists from back then, though I do wonder how different the Standard environment was way back when you had cards like Necropotence or Dream Halls in the environment.


Wasteland could keep greedy mana bases in checkThey're already "in check." Standard doesn't have the original duals or fetchlands (Evolving Wilds does not count and you know it) to help streamline their manabase, so you have to try for some rather awkward manabases if you want to go more than 2 colors.


and give some kind of reward to mono-colored strategies in Standard.There already is a reward, there's the fact that you don't have to deal with the drawbacks of the various multi-color lands (such as them coming into play tapped under some circumstances) and don't have to worry about drawing the wrong colors. That isn't a factor in Legacy because the dual lands have no drawback in and of themselves and the fetchlands provide even more insurance that you get the colors you need. Wasteland creates an actual drawback to playing with dual lands. The dual lands in Standard already have their drawbacks.

Also, it seems counterintuitive to try to punish going multi-color when the current block is all about being multi-colored.

[TeenieBopper]

Uh... What? There were three and four color decks this past season, and that was before shocklands. Every pro and their mother is talking about four/five color control. Without something like Ponder to smooth out draws and Vivid lands, it might be tough, but I wouldn't for a second doubt that some dude like Sam Black is going to come up with a rock solid manabase. And if I remember correctly, there wasn't as single mono or dual colored modern deck played at the Players Championship, or that made top 8 at the last modern GP.

Also, Force would see very little play in Standard.

[xfxf]

In regards to Wasteland and FoW being legal in Standard. I don't think they were both legal in Standard at the same time ever. I only caught FoW when it was legal in Extended but played with Wasteland in Standard. It wasn't tearing up the meta because people were playing things like Mono black Necropotance, Mono Blue Draw-Go, Mono Green Stompy, Sligh etc. etc. There was the Survival decks with multi color mana bases and some Slivers decks but it was nothing like today with a million gold/split mana cards. I was using Wasteland to blow up things like Treetop Village, not to punish greedy splashy mana bases. They were also legal in Extended at the same time and I believe all the blue control decks (Bant Oath, Counterslivers, Forbiddian etc.) were using 4-ofs of both cards just like today. Color fixing in Standard back then was terrible, Reflecting Pool was the card and City of Brass was basically the best option to get unconditional multi-color mana. Other cards included things like Caldera Lake which comes into play tapped and burns you for 1 for each colored mana it produces.

[Asthereal]

I always thought that the purpose of Modern was to fill the gap that Extended left when they messed it up. They used to have a nice set of formats:

-Type 1 for the rich and famous
-Type 1.5 for those who wanted to play type 1 but couldn't afford power or didn't like to play highlander (all good cards restricted, that sucks!)
-Extended for those who wanted a format with mostly new cards, but that was still pretty stable
-Type 2 for those who wanted to play new toys only

Ever since they changed Extended to become sort of a Standard+, they suddenly had an ENORMEOUS gap between Legacy/Vintage and Standard/Standard+. Modern fills that gap, and does so really nicely. If they reprint some more, I will actually consider playing it.

[xfxf]

Stemming from this discussion I also feel like pushing an argument for MTGO's classic format (Vintage without P9) in paper Magic as a constructed format, which for some reason doesn't get any discussion at all, but I'm hesitant if it would hold any water.. :)

[Jenni]

Stemming from this discussion I also feel like pushing an argument for MTGO's classic format (Vintage without P9) in paper Magic as a constructed format, which for some reason doesn't get any discussion at all, but I'm hesitant if it would hold any water.. :)

I've never played the "Classic" Format, but it honestly sounds like fun, even if it's decks lean a bit too on the broken side of magic.

anyway, Asthereal covers my thoughts on this fairly well, Modern just seems like a way to fill the void left by the changes to the extended format.
Legacy and Vintage cover cards from the dawn of magic, where the newest take on the extended format only covered the past 4 years. Players who don't have cards from unlimited or earlier are hard-pressed to make much of an impact in vintage, in legacy you normally need to go back at least as far as tempest, though often as far back as revised, for a solid deck if you play a budgeted deck. Standard you're restricted to just 2 blocks and a core set, and extended is twice what standard offers. That leaves a huge gap, between the old-card formats, and the new-card formats where a lot of good cards that are too old for the new, and not as strong as the old, fall.
Modern, at least in theory, brings some life to these otherwise unplayable cards, revives some old standard decks, brings new life to long-dead strategies and allows players to keep using cards in their collections that just aren't good enough in legacy/vintage.

Personally, I have some problems with the way modern is being handled so far, but the concept at least I think is good.

[ahg113]

@ Jenni: Can you please expand and describe the problems you hinted at. I liked your synopsis and agree with you and Asthereal as for the purpose of Modern.

[Lord Seth]

Uh... What? There were three and four color decks this past season, and that was before shocklands. Every pro and their mother is talking about four/five color control. Without something like Ponder to smooth out draws and Vivid lands, it might be tough, but I wouldn't for a second doubt that some dude like Sam Black is going to come up with a rock solid manabase.I never said it was impossible to go more than 2 colors in Standard, nor should it be. What I said was that you don't need Wasteland to "punish" it when the disadvantages already exist.


And if I remember correctly, there wasn't as single mono or dual colored modern deck played at the Players Championship, or that made top 8 at the last modern GP.The winner of the last Modern Grand Prix (Affinity) was Red/White (unless you honestly want to argue that Ancient Grudge's flashback cost by itself puts it into three colors) and had a Red/Green Urzatron deck in its top 8 also. As for the championship, Jon Finkel (top 4) had a U/W deck, and so did Brian Kibler. There was also a R/W Affinity deck there (again, unless you want to argue that Ancient Grudge puts it into three colors).

Mono-Blue Faeries also took 2nd place at the second most recent Modern Grand Prix.

[joemauer]

I never said it was impossible to go more than 2 colors in Standard, nor should it be. What I said was that you don't need Wasteland to "punish" it when the disadvantages already exist.


With the shocklands rotating in, I fail to see the disadvantages of dual colored decks. Last time the shocklands were in standard mono colored decks didn't exist. This time you have the improved duals(glacial fortress, sulfur falls, etc,) instead of painlands.

So what exactly are the disadvantages of dual and tri colored decks in Standard?
Keep in mind most of the cards being printed in RtR block are and will be multi colored causing even less incentive to play mono colored decks in Standard.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I fail to see why mono-colored decks should be encouraged. Why is that an incentive (especially considering multi-color decks mean people need to buy more packs to get the best lands to play multi-colors, and how interesting that they are all rares) even for Wizards?

Maybe that's the whole idea behind not punishing multi-colored deck players.

[Lord Seth]

With the shocklands rotating in, I fail to see the disadvantages of dual colored decks.The fact you might not get the right color mana? The fact that a not insubstantial amount of the time, you'll have to deal with lands coming into play tapped?

It is not unreasonable to say that the advantages given by playing two colors outweighs the disadvantages. But there are disadvantages.


So what exactly are the disadvantages of dual and tri colored decks in Standard?First, you're changing things. You didn't say 2+ colors, you said "greedy manabases." Maybe we differ on our definition of that, but to me, to get "greedy" you have to go 3+ colors. And when you go past 2 colors, those disadvantages do get pretty noticeable and the manabase gets pretty unwieldy and can far more easily cause you trouble. It's not like Legacy where you get dual colored lands with no drawback and the fetchlands to make things go even more smoothly.

Wasteland is fine for Legacy, and in fact important for it, because it has nonbasic lands so powerful that it needs Wasteland to keep them in check. That is not true for Standard.


Keep in mind most of the cards being printed in RtR block are and will be multi colored causing even less incentive to play mono colored decks in Standard.And that's a problem because...?

I mean that seriously. Return to Ravnica's whole shtick is being multicolored. That's the theme of the set. And it's a theme that's apparently really popular, if the original Ravnica (and for that matter, Invasion) is anything to go by. It makes no sense to take a set that encourages you into going multicolor and then put in what's one of the most anti-multicolor cards ever.

It feels like we've drifted off topic...

[joemauer]

It feels like we've drifted off topic...

Actually the title of this thread is intentionally misleading and is really just asking,"Why aren't you reprinting cards to make my game more affordable, WotC?"

But I think this is probably the best guess as to why Wasteland in specific is not being reprinted:

I fail to see why mono-colored decks should be encouraged. Why is that an incentive (especially considering multi-color decks mean people need to buy more packs to get the best lands to play multi-colors, and how interesting that they are all rares) even for Wizards?

Maybe that's the whole idea behind not punishing multi-colored deck players.

Either this or because Standard players find land destruction unfun.

[TeenieBopper]

I never said it was impossible to go more than 2 colors in Standard, nor should it be. What I said was that you don't need Wasteland to "punish" it when the disadvantages already exist.

I suppose I'm expressing myself wrong: I don't think it's a mono(dual) colored vs. three plus colored decks dichotomy. Rather, I think it's a basics vs. non-basics dichotomy that I have a problem with.

I'll concede that with the lack of fetches and "smoothing" spells (Brainstorm, Ponder) making mana bases somewhat inconsistent, standard probably doesn't need wasteland (though that could possibly change after Gatecrash when the format is going to have three full sets of dual lands, plus stuff). But Modern with the fetches? You have no reason not to run a non-basic deck. I put Tron decks in this category because of the reliance on non-basics to execute its strategy; 4c Zoo relies on non-basics for color purposes, Tron for ramping. Finkels deck, for the record, had a grand total of four basics, only one more than CFB's 4 color zoo list and Watanabe's three color Jund, Only Hayne and Estratti had more basics.



I fail to see why mono-colored decks should be encouraged.

It's not about encouraging mono-colored (or basic) decks, or punishing multi-colored (or non basic decks). Magic is supposed to be a game of trade offs and compromises. With a mono-colored deck you get consistency, but you sacrifice power and versatility. With multi-colored decks, you get a wider range of spells (and in the case of gold cards, generally more powerful spells because of them being harder to cast). In theory, multi-colored decks are supposed to give up consistency. In Modern, they don't, so there's no reason not to play them.

[boneclub24]

If they were to reprint Tarmy, with people knowing what an amazing card it is, wouldn't standard just end up Goyf.dec?

If they were to reprint Goyf, it would surely be as a seperate product. One in a $30-40 dollars box like the premium deck series and WoTC will be adding an extention to its pool made of money.

Goyf is okay, but not great in standard. There aren't any fetches, and much fewer cheap spells to load the grave with early.

[Phoenix Ignition]

It's not about encouraging mono-colored (or basic) decks, or punishing multi-colored (or non basic decks). Magic is supposed to be a game of trade offs and compromises. With a mono-colored deck you get consistency, but you sacrifice power and versatility. With multi-colored decks, you get a wider range of spells (and in the case of gold cards, generally more powerful spells because of them being harder to cast). In theory, multi-colored decks are supposed to give up consistency. In Modern, they don't, so there's no reason not to play them.

I could see this, but maybe it is time to start thinking about it of "which multicolor combination should I run to use the powerful spells" vs. "should I use multiple guilds-worth of colors to get the maximum power spells from all the colors"? Then you still get your trade off of powerful more consistent decks and more powerful cards with less consistency.

I really would like to see more mono-color rewarding spells, but it seems like they just don't want to print a lot of those. Phyrexian Obliterator is a great example of them trying, and is probably even modern playable if you can find the right deck, but I'd love to see more cards along this line.

[ahg113]

I really would like to see more mono-color rewarding spells, but it seems like they just don't want to print a lot of those. Phyrexian Obliterator is a great example of them trying, and is probably even modern playable if you can find the right deck, but I'd love to see more cards along this line.

It's more about what can the colors do unique unto themselves (with the help of brown artifacts.) There isn't much advantage to running mono-color, and for whatever reason, folks don't seem to like playing Tectonic Edge (of which I'm a big fan.)

In a vacuum a mono-colored deck has to be highly efficient at something the other colors can't do that progresses toward winning the game. And for the heck of it, be greedy with colored mana symbols (to reward the predominant use of basics.) The spells should be easy to cast through all points in the game, and impactful.

For the heck of it in Modern, less tribal swarm decks (which are still valid)-
white - life gain, tax
blue - filter, draw, counter
black - discard, draw
red - burn
green - ramp, fatties

How many of those strategies (please add others) are doable early, mid, late? Will you die before you're range comes into focus?

Anyway to the OP, my perception of Modern - format where are cards are able to be reprinted. It's akin to DC comics rebooting their entire line-up starting from zero. The DC universe was so convoluted it was nigh impossible to just pick up a mag and get on board with the story. So they whitewashed it and started over.
Legacy was getting to that convoluted point- price of cards, scarcity of cards, reserved list, etc. Modern should alleviate/address some issues, while the intent of Magic isn't to solve all issues (hence the collectible portion of CCG.)

[DragoFireheart]

Until all Modern legal non-legal Standard cards are $20.00 or less, then Modern has failed its purpose.

[TeenieBopper]

Admittedly a small sample size, but I used the latest Modern DE and what I thought to be the most expensive cards in Modern, and the only ones that are non-standard legal and above $20 (according to StarCity, even) are Umezawa's Jitte, Tarmagoyf, and Dark Confidant. Given than every other invitational card has been reprinted, I would not be surprised in the slightest if Dark Confidant was reprinted in Gatecrash or the third block of this set. I dunno if they'll ever reprint Jitte; it was always very good in standard, but it was never close to ban worthy. Perhaps WotC will reprint it if they find a Standard environment where it won't be overpowered. And given that one of the purposes of Modern (from WotC's point of view) was to be able to reprint cards without affecting the reserve list, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Tarmagoyf was reprinted within two years.

Apparently Sword of Fire and Ice and Vendilion Clique are on that list too. I don't care enough to write about those cards specifically other than to say I wouldn't be surprised if they were reprinted at some point.

So, long story short (tl;dr), Modern is still better than Legacy in terms of accessibility.

[AlmostGrown]

Jitte is banned in Modern, keep doing your research...

[DragoFireheart]

Admittedly a small sample size, but I used the latest Modern DE and what I thought to be the most expensive cards in Modern, and the only ones that are non-standard legal and above $20 (according to StarCity, even) are Umezawa's Jitte, Tarmagoyf, and Dark Confidant. Given than every other invitational card has been reprinted, I would not be surprised in the slightest if Dark Confidant was reprinted in Gatecrash or the third block of this set. I dunno if they'll ever reprint Jitte; it was always very good in standard, but it was never close to ban worthy. Perhaps WotC will reprint it if they find a Standard environment where it won't be overpowered. And given that one of the purposes of Modern (from WotC's point of view) was to be able to reprint cards without affecting the reserve list, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Tarmagoyf was reprinted within two years.

Apparently Sword of Fire and Ice and Vendilion Clique are on that list too. I don't care enough to write about those cards specifically other than to say I wouldn't be surprised if they were reprinted at some point.

So, long story short (tl;dr), Modern is still better than Legacy in terms of accessibility.

Jitte is banned in Modern. This calls into question if you fully understand what you are saying.

Modern still isn't as accessible as it should be. Don't let your hatred of Legacy skew your opinion. However, after seeing the decks that have sprung from Modern, I can say that I am pleasantly surprised. I plan to make try and play a more active role as I see a bright future for this format. In a couple years it's going to get big.

[ahg113]

Until all Modern legal non-legal Standard cards are $20.00 or less, then Modern has failed its purpose.


Are you saying that Modern cards that are Standard legal should be $20 or less?

That doesn't make sense, as there are Standard cards more than $20 (which is ok.)

[TeenieBopper]

Right, because I accidently included one card out of thirty from the Modern banned list, everything I said is completely invalidated. Fuck that.

Is Modern as accessible as, say, Standard? No. And could it be a little more accessible? Yeah; the price of Tarmagoyf, despite it being played in a fairly limited number of modern decks, is testiment to that. But that doesn't change the fact that Modern is still light years ahead of Legacy in terms of accessibility. One can probably build entire competitive Modern decks for what it costs to build competitive Legacy deck mana bases.

[DragoFireheart]

Right, because I accidently included one card out of thirty from the Modern banned list, everything I said is completely invalidated. Fuck that.

- Because that was what I said. Yup, I said that because of one mistake, you are COMPLETELY and UTTERLY wrong in every aspect. Nothing you said was right because of that one mistake. I never once said "you could be wrong because of this small mistake, but you could still understand most of what you are saying but just not entirely".

Nope, I never implied that.

/sarcasm

Relax. I wasn't accusing you of being entirely wrong. I was only suggesting that you might be partially wrong because of that small mistake, with you being wrong in proportion to the size of the mistake. I think you might be a bit too optimistic about how accessible Modern is compared to what it clearly should be/



Is Modern as accessible as, say, Standard? No. And could it be a little more accessible? Yeah; the price of Tarmagoyf, despite it being played in a fairly limited number of modern decks, is testiment to that. But that doesn't change the fact that Modern is still light years ahead of Legacy in terms of accessibility. One can probably build entire competitive Modern decks for what it costs to build competitive Legacy deck mana bases.

- I agree with you, especially the bold part.

Dual lands only costing, what? $10? Right now Modern is small but it will become much more popular in a couple years. My only complaint is that, after a year, it's not doing as good of a job as it should be for some of the more popular cards. That still limits some of the accessibly for people that want to play the color green since Tarmogoyfs cost far too much. The reason I set the arbitrary $20.00 point is because no one should be spending $100 or more on a playset of a card.

[Timber]

Jumping into a year-old thread:

Shock lands were reprinted in RTR block. Thoughtseize, a $90 Modern staple, is being reprinted in Theros. If you give WoTC some time, they'll reprint Modern staples, but they won't sacrifice the Block's design intent to do so.

I'm cool with that.

[HammafistRoob]

Is it just me, or did Modern Masters completely fail its purpose? Goyf, clique, bob annd shit are still ridiculously expensive.

[YamiJoey]

Is it just me, or did Modern Masters completely fail its purpose? Goyf, clique, bob annd shit are still ridiculously expensive.

Spell Snare dropped, and you can get plenty of the rares at a lower price now. The Mythics may not have changed much, but that's because they're Mythics.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Is it just me, or did Modern Masters completely fail its purpose? Goyf, clique, bob annd shit are still ridiculously expensive.

It's not like the printed cards didn't go somewhere. The fact that they're still quite expensive means that it A)Gave more of these staples out to people but not so many that it crashed the market (ala Chronicles scare), and B)Demand is still quite high. From B, we might assume that the staples went to people who wanted them for their decks, thus increasing interest and availability in the format.

The goal of Modern Masters wasn't to tank the market and turn Goyf into a 5 dollar card.

[apple713]

I did a rough calculation today. I initially had FoWs and Wastelands when I started shelling out for Legacy and it took around $2000 to complete a set of U. Seas, a set of Tundras, 3 Volcanics, 3 Trops, 3 Jaces, a set of Goyfs, and a set of all blue fetches. So it means with around $2k you can basically get the foundation for all the most expensive decks. This foundation will enable you to play multiple top-tier decks over multiple years. As far as I understand Standard decks cost around $300-$500 at most. If Modern is going to be a financially viable alternative as an eternal format I think you should be able to complete a similar foundation for about $1k. I don't know if it's currently possible, but can someone chime in?

There are several decks under 500 that are playable in legacy. Some of them are even on the DTB list. I think the cheapest and best performing deck is combo elves. cradles have had a recent jump but the deck can still be played without them.

A playset of duals is $3000. FOW and Wastes are like $200 each (last time i checked), LED's $400, playset of fetch lands about $1800-$2000.

Investing in legacy is a one time event. In 50 years when there is a legacy GP, the average age of players will be 70-80 years old. Legacy players are in it for life!


I read the rest of what you said, but I don't follow your point. That's like saying "Legacy isn't an accessible format because Candelabra of Tawnos costs $250." Sure, there are expensive cards in either format, but it being accessible, and cheap enough for most people to get into, shouldn't depend on the most expensive card that is used in less than 50% of decks.

Caldelabra is played in like 1% of decks being brought to competitive formats...


Legacy isn't a particularly accessible format, so your point is moot. Also, High Tide is a fairly fringe deck, whereas decks like Jund or RUG Delver are tier 1 in Modern.

It does if they're interested in playing one of the decks that uses it.

The shocklands being reprinted is doing a good job at making decks across the board more accessible (and thus has brought Modern closer to its purpose), but until the obvious accessibility problems with Tarmogoyf (and Dark Confidant, really) are fixed, the format still isn't fulfilling the role it's supposed to.

Tarmogoyf is played in less than a third of legacy decks. combo doesnt play it, control doesnt play it, and only half of the aggro decks play it.




Let's take a look at a rather relevant quote.

"A long time ago, we promised not to reprint a certain list of cards. Some of those cards have become important parts of tournament Legacy. Although we regret that promise now, it is a promise that we made, and we intend to keep it.

Many of you have recognized this, and called for a non-rotating format that does not contain these cards."

Mark Rosewater states this more directly on his tumblr:
"One of the driving forces behind creating the modern format is that we are allowed to reprint all of the cards in it."


So it sounds like when the people who made these promises leave the company for one reason or another the RL will be tossed out because its bad for business. Last time I checked WOTC was part of a public company and public companies are required to act in a manner the benefits their shareholders. While many legacy players would like to believe that they are "shareholders" many of them wouldn't even know what company owns WOTC. (its Hasbro BTW and WOTC is one of their most profitable holdings)


As someone who also never plays Standard, I commend your total disregard for it, but if they reprint all of the Modern good cards in a cycle, Standard will just be Modern without fetchlands (or should those also be reprinted?).

I expect ONS fetchlands to be reprinted in standard after shocklands rotate.


Is it just me, or did Modern Masters completely fail its purpose? Goyf, clique, bob annd shit are still ridiculously expensive.

The purpose was to make cards more accessible and increase supply, not to crash the prices.

[HammafistRoob]

Obviously. But he's still over the 100 mark. I think Joey hit it, fuck mythics.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I read the rest of what you said, but I don't follow your point. That's like saying "Legacy isn't an accessible format because Candelabra of Tawnos costs $250." Sure, there are expensive cards in either format, but it being accessible, and cheap enough for most people to get into, shouldn't depend on the most expensive card that is used in less than 50% of decks.
Caldelabra is played in like 1% of decks being brought to competitive formats...


I don't remember what we were talking about, as you're responding to things a year ago, but your response isn't a rebuttal. "Card that is used in less than 50% of decks." includes, "card that is used in like 1% of decks."

There exists an X such that:
X < 50%
X < 1%

[force_of_phil]

The purpose of modern is to give Legacy players a good chuckle every time they update B&R lists.

[Phoenix Ignition]

The purpose of modern is to give Legacy players a good chuckle every time they update B&R lists.

Where's your Survival, now?!

[JDK]

The purpose of modern is to give Legacy players a good chuckle every time they update B&R lists.

Like you chuckle when you look at the GP & PTQ schedule?

[DragoFireheart]

I thought the purpose of Modern was to be an alternative to Legacy and Vintage?

[Davran]

I thought the purpose of Modern was to be an alternative to Legacy and Vintage?

Essentially, yes. The idea is that the Reserve List is here to stay, and WotC recognizes that as a problem for the future growth of legacy and vintage. Maybe not right now, but certainly eventually. Modern is intended to be an eternal format that's not bound by the reserve list...for better or worse.

So far, it's essentially a format where you can turn some guys sideways a few times for a win. There isn't much "play" to a lot of the top tier decks - you fan your opening 7 and either win or lose from there - which I think is why a lot of legacy and vintage players dislike the format. This is partly to do with the ban list and partly to do with the somewhat arbitrary "turn 4" restriction they put on the format. Apparently 4 turns of magic makes games more fun than 3 turns or something. The other problem with the format is that there's really no control or combo to keep things in check, just a lot of midrange grindfests fueled by greedy mana bases.

The format really needs Wasteland to keep things in check...but apparently land destruction is about as fun as a turn 3 kill...so here we are.

[DragoFireheart]

The format really needs Wasteland to keep things in check...but apparently land destruction is about as fun as a turn 3 kill...so here we are.

Just make another moon effect so we can have 12 moon effects.

[Allenthar]

Essentially, yes. The idea is that the Reserve List is here to stay, and WotC recognizes that as a problem for the future growth of legacy and vintage. Maybe not right now, but certainly eventually. Modern is intended to be an eternal format that's not bound by the reserve list...for better or worse.

So far, it's essentially a format where you can turn some guys sideways a few times for a win. There isn't much "play" to a lot of the top tier decks - you fan your opening 7 and either win or lose from there - which I think is why a lot of legacy and vintage players dislike the format. This is partly to do with the ban list and partly to do with the somewhat arbitrary "turn 4" restriction they put on the format. Apparently 4 turns of magic makes games more fun than 3 turns or something. The other problem with the format is that there's really no control or combo to keep things in check, just a lot of midrange grindfests fueled by greedy mana bases.

The format really needs Wasteland to keep things in check...but apparently land destruction is about as fun as a turn 3 kill...so here we are.

Have you actually played Modern recently? Just look at this metagame: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/modern. The only decks that could be considered "midrange" are the Jund, Pod, and Rock decks. And the Pod decks are really more combo anyway.

Until they reprint something like Force of Will into Modern, I'm fine with the "turn 4" rule, as without it combo decks would beat everything else every day of the week. Right now the combo decks can't actually go off consistently before the opponent actually has the mana to counter them. The lack of Wasteland is definitely obvious, but Blood Moon and Tec Edge do a good job of punishing greedy mana bases.

[Timber]

Here's a pretty good take on Legacy, Modern and Standard:

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27736_The-Complexity-Climb.html

I like the way that Carsten divides up the formats by complexity. It makes sense why Legacy players trash Modern for its lack of stack interaction and why Modern and Legacy players trash Standard for its straight-forward simplicity.

What do you all think?

[Arsenal]

Before I started to play Modern, I didn't like it. Once I started to play Modern though, I liked it very much. It's different from Legacy, which is welcomed. I don't want all formats to be Legacy-lite, I want them to be distinct and to stand on their own with as little overlap as possible. I play Legacy when I want to play with cards like Force of Will, Brainstorm, etc. I play Modern when I want to Cryptic Command and Sphinx's Revelation.

I think a lot of Legacy players that hate on Modern don't play Modern at all or don't play it enough to understand that Modern is no better or worse than Legacy, it's simply a different format trying to do different things than Legacy is trying to do.

[rockout]

Tell that to star city games who puts on legacy tournaments every weekend.

These will eventually become modern on Sunday and Standard on Saturday. Once that happens legacy will go back to where it was before scg which was few and far between driving always over an hour to play in a 20 man event for store credit.

[apple713]

These will eventually become modern on Sunday and Standard on Saturday. Once that happens legacy will go back to where it was before scg which was few and far between driving always over an hour to play in a 20 man event for store credit.

they tried to do standard on both days and that didn't work out, so i highly doubt modern will ...

[JanoschEausH]

These will eventually become modern on Sunday and Standard on Saturday. Once that happens legacy will go back to where it was before scg which was few and far between driving always over an hour to play in a 20 man event for store credit.

I don't think this will happen anytime soon. If you listen to the commentators, players and most authors of SCG - everybody is telling you the same thing: That Legacy is their favorite format. People want to play Legacy and they like it. They gonna play Modern only on GPs or PTs, because there is much at stake and they wanna win. They do it for they moneys not for the fun.

[Arsenal]

If SCG Opens exist forever, then I think eventually Modern will overtake Legacy. Modern is run as a supported FNM event, meaning the player base is still building and will eventually surpass Legacy's grassroots playerbase. Legacy is a fairly old format (older if you count Type 1.5) with an established playerbase, Modern has been around for a blink of an eye comparatively.

Also, Modern is comparatively cheaper to play competitively. The fact that the cardpool is available for theoretical reprint also may factor in.

[Davran]

If SCG Opens exist forever, then I think eventually Modern will overtake Legacy. Modern is run as a supported FNM event, meaning the player base is still building and will eventually surpass Legacy's grassroots playerbase. Legacy is a fairly old format (older if you count Type 1.5) with an established playerbase, Modern has been around for a blink of an eye comparatively.

Also, Modern is comparatively cheaper to play competitively. The fact that the cardpool is available for theoretical reprint also may factor in.

To add a little evidence to this - my LGS replaced its legacy events with modern, which caused a noticeable increase in attendance. This is likely due to the fact that most of the local players are newer to the game, and as such don't have incredibly deep collections to build legacy decks from. Also, they can sanction modern as an FNM, which helps them out with their product allocations and such.

[Megadeus]

To add a little evidence to this - my LGS replaced its legacy events with modern, which caused a noticeable increase in attendance. This is likely due to the fact that most of the local players are newer to the game, and as such don't have incredibly deep collections to build legacy decks from. Also, they can sanction modern as an FNM, which helps them out with their product allocations and such.

Alternatively, our local Wednesday Legacy event has actually grown in the past month or so, while the weekly Modern is around the same if not smaller than it was. Even one of the newer stores in our area, a lot of people have/are built decks for legacy. I personally have played played modern on a handful of occasions and it is fine. I disagree with the ban list and hate how they just ban cards so often, but overall the format is alright.

[Arsenal]

A bigger draw is that there will be some Standard players with old Standard decks that they can conceivably run in Modern and be somewhat competitive whereas they have zero chance of being competitive in Legacy with their old UW Reveillark deck. At my Modern FNMs, there is a fair amount of legit, tier 1 Modern decks, but also a fair amount of old Standard decks that can still win matches.

[Megadeus]

A bigger draw is that there will be some Standard players with old Standard decks that they can conceivably run in Modern and be somewhat competitive whereas they have zero chance of being competitive in Legacy with their old UW Reveillark deck. At my Modern FNMs, there is a fair amount of legit, tier 1 Modern decks, but also a fair amount of old Standard decks that can still win matches.

Meh someone top 4'd one of our legacy Weeklies with standard RB Zombies. I mean sure it takes a bit more innovation usually, but if people took the time to put something together they could be competitive.

[Arsenal]

Meh someone top 4'd one of our legacy Weeklies with standard RB Zombies. I mean sure it takes a bit more innovation usually, but if people took the time to put something together they could be competitive.

With a card pool as large as Legacy, this is often not going to be the case. You'll have your Sam Black Walking Dead decks, sure, but for every one of those rogue decks, they'll be a dozen tiered Legacy decks that just laughs in the face of homebrews and proceeds to win.

With Modern, the difference in power levels between Sower of Temptation + Reveillark (old Standard UW Reveillark staple) isn't that pronounced from Tarmogoyf + Lingering Souls (found in White Jund that is about 50% of the meta).

Modern is basically Super-Standard as opposed to being Legacy-Lite. I'm okay with this as Legacy-Lite would lack many of the format's policemen (Force and Wasteland). Super-Standard allows for playing with moderately powerful cards (Cryptic Command, Ajani Vengeant, Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, etc) while not needing policemen as the overall power level of the format isn't high enough to warrant them.

[Timber]

I think a lot of newer players' fear of both Modern and Legacy is this mentallity: "I don't have fetches/duals/FoW/Goyf therefore, I can't ever win. If I want to win, I need to drop $600+ which I don't have." The problem with that thinking is that not everyone at a Modern or Legacy event (no one in the case of my LGS) has all of those powerful cards.

It's super frustrating that I can't get the players in my area, that started around the same time I did (Innistrad) and have a good quantity of cards that rotated out of Standard, to try Modern. My local store gets about 16 people for Standard FNMs. Last week's Modern had 3....:cry:

I like Standard and draft, but man, don't they ever want to play something different once in a while!

[Arsenal]

Many old Standard decks can be modified for Modern and at least be competitive. They won't be winning every FNM and crushing the tiered Modern decks like Jund, Tron, etc, but they'll be winning games and matches because the disparity between old Standard decks and current Modern decks isn't that large.

A semi-recent Standard deck was UW Tempo featuring Geist, Delver, Snapcaster, Mana Leak, Moorland Haunt, Ponder, etc. Now, the deck would need to be modified (Ponder is banned, etc), but the majority of the deck and strategy would remain intact enough to be competitive (worse without Ponder, but competitive all the same).

Honestly, people who don't play Modern should just sleeve up their old Standard deck they weren't able to sell-off in time to make a profit and just enter a FNM Modern tourney. I think they'd be surprised at how well they'd do.

Also, Modern has very distinct archetypes that people can explore. If you want to go the hard control route, there's always UWR Control. Can't afford it? Play your old Standard 5-Color Control deck from 2009 and see how well you do (I suspect you'll be winning games). If you want to go full-aggro, Affinity is in the top tier and really inexpensive to build, especially if you played Standard/Extended Affinity in years past. If you can't afford it still, there's still aggressive Burn/RDW strategies that I'm sure people still have cards for. Want to grind and play value creatures? Pod, Jund, Junk are for you. Can't afford it? Bust out your old Boat Brew and/or UW Lark decks and start terrorizing your opponent with nothing but ETB creatures for value.

Seriously, people need to understand that casting Sower of Temptation + Reveillark (UW Lark), or Figure of Destiny + Ajani Vengeant (Boat Brew), or Volcanic Fallout + Cruel Ultimatum (5 Color Control), etc is perfectly acceptable in a FNM Modern setting.

EDIT: Shocklands are like $6-8ea. If players are whining about that, then they should reevaluate what it costs to play Magic. Many, many Standard cards are far more than $6-8ea and drafting is typically $12-15 each time. I don't understand how people are unable to afford Shocklands, but are drafting every FNM.

[Timber]

Honestly, people who don't play Modern should just sleeve up their old Standard deck they weren't able to sell-off in time to make a profit and just enter a FNM Modern tourney. I think they'd be surprised at how well they'd do.

The players at the store I go to, and my friends that play, didn't want to spend the money on the top tier standard cards from 2012/2013, or if they did, those cards were all midrange strategy cards that are too slow for Modern. If you dumped all your money into Titan Ramp or Thragtusk midrange decks, it's more difficult to do well in modern than if you put all your money into blue (Spirits, Hexproof or Flash) decks.


Shocklands are like $6-8ea. If players are whining about that, then they should reevaluate what it costs to play Magic. Many, many Standard cards are far more than $6-8ea and drafting is typically $12-15 each time. I don't understand how people are unable to afford Shocklands, but are drafting every FNM.

I'm always amazed at the number of people that don't use ebay to get cards cheaper. Most of the people I play with think that Shock lands are all ~$12 because that's the BS Star City price their LGS charges. There seem to be a lot of FNM crowd people that won't just buy singles either...weird. Perhaps they don't have/can't get a credit or debit card. By no means am I a good competitive player, and my local store is super casual, but there are a lot of Magic players that waste tons of money on non-draft boosters, deck boxes, "cool" sleeves and Fat Packs, when they could just buy the cards they need to brew better decks.

[Arsenal]

Thragtusk will do far, far better in a Modern environment than in a Legacy one. Will you sometimes die to "lol, Twin my Pestermite, take a 1,000,000,000"? Sure. But I suspect there will also be games when you land a turn 3-4 Thragtusk (due to mana ramp) and your Jund opponent starts frowning as he eyes the Abrupt Decay in his hand.

[Megadeus]

Tusk is real good in modern and legacy. Just gotta have a decent way to get there. Shocks can be had like 25-30 for a set on ebay and such. Hell if nothing else the pain lands are cheap. You dont need fetches like you do in legacy because there is no Brainstorm/Jace/Top to shuffle chaff away. I build just straight RG LD with Molten Rains, Stone Rains, Birds of Paradise and Plow Unders, Avalanche Riders, Deus of Calamity and went like 3-1. People just need to learn how to brew or something. Alternatively another really cheap but probably powerful strategy would be some sort of Master TRansmuter deck. I think people underestimate how busted that card is.

[FTW]

WTF when did blue fetches become FIFTY DOLLARS? and Remand at uncommon is 12.50??? How many people are playing Delver and Twin? I remember picking up each of those cards at 1/4 the current price and thinking I was getting ripped off. Remember when Misty Rainforest was the Legacy budget fetch for newer players?

We need another Modern Masters with cards like Delver, Remand, Spell Pierce, Prismatic Omen, Valakut, Bob, etc.

[DragoFireheart]

Looks like the purpose of modern is to play Jund/Rock and turn those $100+ Gofys sideways.

[Megadeus]

WTF when did blue fetches become FIFTY DOLLARS? and Remand at uncommon is 12.50??? How many people are playing Delver and Twin? I remember picking up each of those cards at 1/4 the current price and thinking I was getting ripped off. Remember when Misty Rainforest was the Legacy budget fetch for newer players?

We need another Modern Masters with cards like Delver, Remand, Spell Pierce, Prismatic Omen, Valakut, Bob, etc.

Last year Modern cards all skyrocketed. Serum Visions (AKA bad Preordain) is like 4 bucks. Blue fetches are heavily played in Legacy as well though.

[Davran]

WTF when did blue fetches become FIFTY DOLLARS? and Remand at uncommon is 12.50??? How many people are playing Delver and Twin? I remember picking up each of those cards at 1/4 the current price and thinking I was getting ripped off. Remember when Misty Rainforest was the Legacy budget fetch for newer players?

We need another Modern Masters with cards like Delver, Remand, Spell Pierce, Prismatic Omen, Valakut, Bob, etc.

Someone somewhere decided fetches were undervalued. They've been pegged at $50-55 for at least 6 months now. Hell, the non-blue fetches are at least $40.

Another Modern Masters would be great...except the supply will be limited, the rarity of the cards in the greatest need of a fresh supply will be increased (i.e. Goyf at mythic), and there will be no overall effect on price. Just like last time. I get that magic is a collectible card game...but the prices of cards are starting to get a little ridiculous...and that's coming from an adult with a stable income. I can't imagine how difficult it is for the younger players to amass enough allowance to build a competitive deck. WotC really needs to put more stock in the needs of the players and less in the needs of the collectors. As long as sites like mtgstocks.com exist we all suffer at the hands of speculators and "investors".

[Timber]

Balancing the barrier to entry created by the secondary market while developing new sets must be tough, especially when sets are designed years in advance. Even if you ban cards like Goyf or Fetches in Modern, basic supply and demand means that other cards will skyrocket in value. On the other hand, if you flood the market with reprints of the most popular cards, you start to limit the variety of the formats.

I've only been playing Modern card frame MTG since Gatecrash's release, so I'm not familiar with hoser success, or lack there of. Anyone have an opinion on how successful hoser cards have been in reducing the use of the most powerful cards?

[YamiJoey]

Could you provide examples of said hoser cards?

Deathrite Shaman and RiP have basically finished off all of the Graveyard strategies that aren't Living End, so that's a thing. Scooze came in and swept up the pieces.

Also Living End isn't actually a deck.

[Lord Seth]

Another Modern Masters would be great...except the supply will be limited, the rarity of the cards in the greatest need of a fresh supply will be increased (i.e. Goyf at mythic), and there will be no overall effect on price. Just like last time. I get that magic is a collectible card game...but the prices of cards are starting to get a little ridiculous...and that's coming from an adult with a stable income.
It isn't a collectible card game. The only time I ever see it referred to as such is when people bring this sort of thing up. Wizards never refers to it as such. A few cards in it are collectible, but by that logic Chess is a collectible game because I'm sure there are vintage Chess sets that cost thousands of dollars.

Now you might bring up the high price of cards. Here's the thing: Outside of cards from the earliest sets, they're not expensive because they're collectible. They're expensive because people want to use them. People don't buy a Juzam Djinn because they want to use it (it's not even a particularly good card anymore), they buy it because it's a collectible. In contrast, people buy Revised duals and Tarmogoyfs and Dark Confidants because they want to actually use them in decks.

A high price doesn't mean something is a collectible. Collectibles are collectible because people will purchase them to collect them, whereas Magic cards in general, especially in Modern, are purchased because people want to use them.

If a big reprint crashes something's value, it means it was never an actual collectible. How many reprints have Shakespeare's plays gotten? Original copies of the The First Folio is still worth millions of dollars, because no amount of different versions are going to make there be more copies of those.

Wizards of the Coast's reluctance to reprint cards to adequately meet demand has never been about keep things collectible, because it doesn't make the collectible cards any less collectible than the twenty zillion Shakespeare reprints have made The First Folio not collectible. It's about keeping the cards expensive because then investors or speculators whine about it. That, or they're still paranoid about Chronicles, which means that they're basically trying to serve the consumers from 18 years ago rather than the consumers in the present day.

It would be nice if Modern Masters 2 has an actually reasonable print run size. As in, something that a store won't sell out of in less than an hour.

Also Living End isn't actually a deck.
Huh? It's most certainly a deck. I assume you're not being literal, because obviously the deck exists, but even figuratively (the claim it's not playable) doesn't make sense because it is. It's a bit like Dredge or Reanimator in that the meta is fairly important for it, but to claim it's "not a deck" on that basis seems quite silly.

[DragoFireheart]

That, or they're still paranoid about Chronicles, which means that they're basically trying to serve the consumers from 18 years ago rather than the consumers in the present day.


Why not this reason? It's not like magic cards of old will become outdated in terms of value.

[Megadeus]

I'm pretty sure that my store still has MM packs. They are just really expensive

[DragoFireheart]

I'm pretty sure that my store still has MM packs. They are just really expensive

Which sorta defeats the purpose of a print run for the purpose of making core cards cheaper.

[Davran]

It isn't a collectible card game. The only time I ever see it referred to as such is when people bring this sort of thing up. Wizards never refers to it as such. A few cards in it are collectible, but by that logic Chess is a collectible game because I'm sure there are vintage Chess sets that cost thousands of dollars.

Now you might bring up the high price of cards. Here's the thing: Outside of cards from the earliest sets, they're not expensive because they're collectible. They're expensive because people want to use them. People don't buy a Juzam Djinn because they want to use it (it's not even a particularly good card anymore), they buy it because it's a collectible. In contrast, people buy Revised duals and Tarmogoyfs and Dark Confidants because they want to actually use them in decks.

A high price doesn't mean something is a collectible. Collectibles are collectible because people will purchase them to collect them, whereas Magic cards in general, especially in Modern, are purchased because people want to use them.

If a big reprint crashes something's value, it means it was never an actual collectible. How many reprints have Shakespeare's plays gotten? Original copies of the The First Folio is still worth millions of dollars, because no amount of different versions are going to make there be more copies of those.

Wizards of the Coast's reluctance to reprint cards to adequately meet demand has never been about keep things collectible, because it doesn't make the collectible cards any less collectible than the twenty zillion Shakespeare reprints have made The First Folio not collectible. It's about keeping the cards expensive because then investors or speculators whine about it. That, or they're still paranoid about Chronicles, which means that they're basically trying to serve the consumers from 18 years ago rather than the consumers in the present day.

It would be nice if Modern Masters 2 has an actually reasonable print run size. As in, something that a store won't sell out of in less than an hour.

Whether or not someone came out on record and said "M:tG is a collectible card game" is largely irrelevant. There are people out there that treat it as such. How many sealed boxes of Modern Masters do you suppose exist in some closet somewhere as speculation on their future value? This happens because some believe that the "value" of the card(s) will only increase over time, which is supported directly by WotC's current business model. They're afraid that if they anger the "collectors" like they did with Chronicles, the game will tank like it did then. Maybe they know something I don't...but somehow I think things will move along just fine with format staples at half their current price.

[Arsenal]

Whether or not someone came out on record and said "M:tG is a collectible card game" is largely irrelevant. There are people out there that treat it as such. How many sealed boxes of Modern Masters do you suppose exist in some closet somewhere as speculation on their future value? This happens because some believe that the "value" of the card(s) will only increase over time, which is supported directly by WotC's current business model. They're afraid that if they anger the "collectors" like they did with Chronicles, the game will tank like it did then. Maybe they know something I don't...but somehow I think things will move along just fine with format staples at half their current price.

It isn't "largely irrelevant" if Wizards initially branded Magic as a collectible card game, because it sets an expectation of the consumer. Also, the game itself didn't tank with Chronicles (back then, those cards were decent-ish), the value of players' cards did. Players weren't upset that they now had greater access to cards to play Magic with, they were mad that their Legendary Swamp King was no longer worth $20, but $7.

[Timber]

It isn't "largely irrelevant" if Wizards initially branded Magic as a collectible card game, because it sets an expectation of the consumer. Also, the game itself didn't tank with Chronicles (back then, those cards were decent-ish), the value of players' cards did. Players weren't upset that they now had greater access to cards to play Magic with, they were mad that their Legendary Swamp King was no longer worth $20, but $7.

I'm completely with Lord Seth here.

You're talking about a totally different environment. In 1996, weekly tournaments where you could win $20-$50 store credit didn't exist. Neither did internet retailers, ebay, and online trading. Magic cards pre-MaRo were collectible, meaning that rarity drove demand and therefore, price. Today, cards are not worth money because their demand comes from rarity. Rather, it comes from their usefulness in the competitive scene that didn't exist back in the day.

Mirror-Mad Phantasm, Tibalt, the fiend-blooded and all the other bulk mythics prove this.

EDIT: That's not to say that playable rares weren't worth way more back then; they obviously were. However, the game was newer, and I don't think that anyone imagined that the game would last 20 years and would have new products produced with such frequency, making collecting significantly more difficult.

[Timber]

Whether or not someone came out on record and said "M:tG is a collectible card game" is largely irrelevant. There are people out there that treat it as such. How many sealed boxes of Modern Masters do you suppose exist in some closet somewhere as speculation on their future value? This happens because some believe that the "value" of the card(s) will only increase over time, which is supported directly by WotC's current business model.

People speculate on boxes of sets that contain GOOD cards. Modern Masters contains a lot of good cards. Fallen Empires is worth nothing because there's nothing in that set that is playable. If this was a collectible game, Fallen Empires would be worth something purely based on its age. People that hang onto seal products are not collectors; they're investing in MTG "stock".


They're afraid that if they anger the "collectors" like they did with Chronicles, the game will tank like it did then. Maybe they know something I don't...but somehow I think things will move along just fine with format staples at half their current price.

If WoTC thinks that Chronicles reprints was the reason the game started losing popularity, and not that it, and the subsequent 4 sets, was full of unplayable cards, then this game is being run by the incompetent.

[DragoFireheart]

If WoTC thinks that Chronicles reprints was the reason the game started losing popularity, and not that it, and the subsequent 4 sets, was full of unplayable cards, then this game is being run by the incompetent.

It's funny you say that...

[Blair Phoenix]

People speculate on boxes of sets that contain GOOD cards. Modern Masters contains a lot of good cards. Fallen Empires is worth nothing because there's nothing in that set that is playable. If this was a collectible game, Fallen Empires would be worth something purely based on its age. People that hang onto seal products are not collectors; they're investing in MTG "stock".



If WoTC thinks that Chronicles reprints was the reason the game started losing popularity, and not that it, and the subsequent 4 sets, was full of unplayable cards, then this game is being run by the incompetent.

Fallen Empires had Hymn to Tourach, arguably one of the best discard spells ever printed. Yeah, it's not a money card because it's a common, but Fallen Empires had at least one good card >.>

[Megadeus]

And High Tide. At common. All of the Value.

[Timber]

So with Pod winning GP Detroit and taking 2nd at Pro Tour Born of the Gods, UWR Control dominating Worlds and winning PT Born of the Gods, and Splinter Twin variants all over the place at PT Born of the Gods, can we put the "Modern sucks because Control and Combo aren't viable" argument to bed?

[Arsenal]

Control has always been good in Modern. You have your tradititonal draw-go permission control and you even have your nontraditional control in the form of Tron. If you enjoy control, Modern has it all.

[JDK]

People don't grasp the control nature of Tron.dec and other decks like Scapeshift and when they try UWR Draw Go, they just suck, so the natural thing for them is to say "Modern has no viable control deck".

The PT showed some amazing play skill (Wilson was a delight to watch, Dickmann is one of the best Modern players there is and McLaren - despite drawing extremely lucky in the finals - played Draw Go like a champ...a PT champ).

Combo was and still is a major part of the metagame: Twin, Pod, Storm, Living End and even low-% decks like Vigor and Ad Nauseam.

[FoolofaTook]

Pod is the scariest list in Modern at the moment. I live in fear of the day that people put the time and effort into developing a great Bant Pod list. It's like when Survival of the Fittest was strong in Legacy and it was just a matter of time until people worked strong blue in to put it over the top.

[Arsenal]

I really like the meta of Modern. Very diverse in form and function, very little card overlap, very distinct strategies, etc. The format isn't homogenized due to an imbalance in color power or card power. Healthy stuff.

[FoolofaTook]

I really like the meta of Modern. Very diverse in form and function, very little card overlap, very distinct strategies, etc. The format isn't homogenized due to an imbalance in color power or card power. Healthy stuff.

We're kind of on the edge of homogenization with Cryptic Command, Snapcaster Mage and Serum Visions. We're not quite there yet because the engine that goes with those cards hasn't been assembled yet but we're on the edge of that with every set that is printed. All it would take is a JtMS level mistake and we'd wind up with a new round of bannings.

[Arsenal]

Although quite powerful, Cryptic and Snapcaster have hard restrictions that limit their usage to specific decks. I'm fine with blue-based decks having powerful cards, but I'm not okay with blue having ALL of the powerful cards like you currently see in Legacy. Due to Modern's cardpool, many non-blue decks can compete with blue quite well.

[JDK]

Pod is the scariest list in Modern at the moment. I live in fear of the day that people put the time and effort into developing a great Bant Pod list. It's like when Survival of the Fittest was strong in Legacy and it was just a matter of time until people worked strong blue in to put it over the top.

Pod had quite horrible win-percentages for being the "scariest list in Modern". Sure, it's extremely powerful, but people packed Anger of the Gods in their SB in preparation for this event and the deck is weak against combo.

[Arsenal]

That's exactly why I like Modern. There's a pretty even game of rock-paper-scissors going on with no deck acting as the boogeyman to which all other decks exclusively gameplan for.

[JDK]

I don't know if people just didn't bother extensively testing Faeries or if it's really not that good, but so far I love the Post-DRS-Ban metagame (despite Nacatl worsening my Tron).

[Phoenix Ignition]

I don't know if people just didn't bother extensively testing Faeries or if it's really not that good, but so far I love the Post-DRS-Ban metagame (despite Nacatl worsening my Tron).

It's the pro tour, no one really tries to innovate. The Blue Moon deck has been around for a while and the announcers were wetting themselves over how innovative that was. Every other deck was pretty normal, with maybe just a couple tweaks. I'm not surprised at all that we didn't see a new zoo or Faeries deck come out.

[Arsenal]

But didn't Zoo show up in full force at PT Valencia? I thought I read something like Zoo accounted for a gigantic portion of the Modern decks.

[Phoenix Ignition]

But didn't Zoo show up in full force at PT Valencia? I thought I read something like Zoo accounted for a gigantic portion of the Modern decks.

You are right, just read that myself. We never saw coverage because I guess it fell flat on its face.

[FoolofaTook]

Although quite powerful, Cryptic and Snapcaster have hard restrictions that limit their usage to specific decks. I'm fine with blue-based decks having powerful cards, but I'm not okay with blue having ALL of the powerful cards like you currently see in Legacy. Due to Modern's cardpool, many non-blue decks can compete with blue quite well.

We're definitely not to the point where blue is dominant, however it has better core cards than any other color at the moment. The reason is the same in Modern as in any other format, card advantage and quality-filtering are just very powerful effects in the game and permission is back-breaking in the mid-game if played well.

Birthing Pod doesn't play well with Snapcaster Mage, since BP wants a creature toolbox and combo generator available and SCM wants instant and sorcery spells in the graveyard. So that's one potentially horrid combo that is effectively neutralized.

[FoolofaTook]

Pod had quite horrible win-percentages for being the "scariest list in Modern". Sure, it's extremely powerful, but people packed Anger of the Gods in their SB in preparation for this event and the deck is weak against combo.

Anger of the Gods, like Firespout, is a sorcery and for me the scary part of Birthing Pod is the combos it produces at a point where opposing sorcery spells are not castable. It's in the nature of the list to have already naturally exhausted my instant creature removal by the time the key turn happens on turn 5 or 6 at the outside. I can't let the first couple of activations go just because I'm going to need 2 instant speed removal options on the turn it goes off in 2 turns. If I do that then I've incrementally lost too much advantage by the time they get to the key turn. I wind up getting leveraged over the edge and they don't even have to go off at that point.

That's why I hate the card. It forces you to make decisions that are not in your best interest because doing nothing is worse.

[Psyqo]

That's exactly why I like Modern. There's a pretty even game of rock-paper-scissors going on with no deck acting as the boogeyman to which all other decks exclusively gameplan for.

I feel the same way. It seems like if you know your decklist inside and out, you can show up to a tournament with 1 of 10 different decks and have a solid shot of winning.

[Timber]

But didn't Zoo show up in full force at PT Valencia? I thought I read something like Zoo accounted for a gigantic portion of the Modern decks.

There was discussion about how a lot of the Zoo lists went "Big Zoo". Perhaps that build avoided Anger of the Gods, but was too slow to be effective?

I'd like to see Kibler's list. He tweeted that he won all his Zoo mirrors.

[JDK]

That's why I hate the card. It forces you to make decisions that are not in your best interest because doing nothing is worse.
Welcome to Magic.

Guess what, a single card is often not enough to win a specific match(up).


@Phoenix Ignition
Not to mention Ad Nauseam and Vigor. God I hate coverage by Hill, Sutcliff and to some extent Hagon and BDM. Randy + LSV all the way, please.

@Timber
It doesn't avoid Anger, but it has the edge in the Mirror match (vs. Fast Zoo). It's weaker to (control and) combo though, since you give them more time to set up.

[Timber]

@Timber
It doesn't avoid Anger, but it has the edge in the Mirror match (vs. Fast Zoo). It's weaker to (control and) combo though, since you give them more time to set up.

That's what I figured.

[Mr. Safety]

I love modern right now. I can play aggro, control, OR combo. Currently, aggro is at its lowest point but it will take some time and innovation before zoo becomes a top player again. I have u/w control, death cloud, and loam/assault built for control. I have zoo and jund built for aggro. I have ad nauseam and tooth&nail built for combo. Much fun and profit to be had in the format right now.

[Phoenix Ignition]

I love modern right now. I can play aggro, control, OR combo. Currently, aggro is at its lowest point but it will take some time and innovation before zoo becomes a top player again. I have u/w control, death cloud, and loam/assault built for control. I have zoo and jund built for aggro. I have ad nauseam and tooth&nail built for combo. Much fun and profit to be had in the format right now.

Also, I don't even think that aggro is in that bad a place. It got stomped on at the PT (I think) because it got a bit blindsided by Anger of the Gods everywhere. Now that people see it coming they can adapt their decks to it, and not the kind of adaptation that you need to "adapt" to True Name Nemesis and that shit.

[Mr. Safety]

I agree. Prep for Valencia was tight. Affinity still did well, but that's normal.