[Deck] 12 Post

[Rock Lee]

Turbo Eldrazi

http://casualmagic.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/rise-of-the-eldrazi-image.jpg

Turbo Eldrazi, or 12post as most folks will name it, is a ramp deck with a very narrow core card list. Because of this the potential cards are large and because of the inordinate amount of mana you can generate the cardpool is increasingly magnified.

The core:
4 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

Because this core constitutes a good chunk of your manabase it leaves the remainder of the deck up for considerable variation. The weakness of a deck where you are strongly encouraged to plant one of 4 cards into play, Cloudpost, is when your mana and selection are pressured. Thus increasing land tutors and hand improvement is paramount. That leaves us with an addition of some fixing.

Supplemental spells:
[M11] Primeval Titan
[CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
[5E] Brainstorm
[UL] Crop Rotation
[ZEN] Expedition Map

Finally there is a need for acceleration

[AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
[US] Show and Tell

and removal/protection

[GP] Repeal
[M10] Pithing Needle
[IA] Glacial Chasm
[LG] Karakas
[CMD] Bojuka Bog

It is in this last portion that the most variation is introduced and often the modifications to this will adapt the deck to your particular meta.

Since combo will give you the hardest time and the core of your deck is your mana base, you can afford to side in heavy amounts of cards without diluting your deck's potency, merely its kill's consistency. Since against combo you rarely care about winning before them, this is not a problem.


The concept of the deck is simple enough. You sacrifice early tempo and board control for late game overwhelming advantage through uncounterable win conditions, removal, and damage.

The difficulty of the deck is that your average archetype in legacy involves 2-3 decisions per turn with diminishing choices after the first three turns. Turbo Eldrazi is the exact opposite. You often have 1-2 decisions in the first two turns, and every turn thereafter the number of choices increases exponentially. By your turn 4-5 you often have to make more decisions than a normal deck makes in 3 games of magic. Compounded on this increase in number of choices, your first few choices have incredibly large impact for the remainder of the game. As a teammate Scott Hughes aptly stated, "With this deck you can play the wrong land on turn 1 and lose the game for yourself."

That being said, the most successful variant of the deck is as a Control deck that has the ability to combo finish.

Combo, especially random combo, is Eldrazi's hardest matchup. The reason is that restricting both the timeframe to build up mana and the avenue to interrupt their combo is the best way to counteract the holistic and inevitable defeat that Turbo Eldrazi brings to a matchup. Waiting will always result in a loss against Turbo Eldrazi, there is no competitive deck with a greater endgame.


Hand Keeping and starting concepts
Hand keeping is the most important skill with this deck. I have often said that if you aren't blown out by turn 3, you should win that game, and hand keeping is paramount to achieving that. Manafixing/preserving and a constant flow of land drops are your major early concerns so your starting hand will influence how you enable this flow. It is for this reason that I suggest heavy playtesting for anyone who wants to have success with the deck at competitive events. My best simple guide to hand keeping would best be put as a priority of axioms and some general rules.

Don't keep hands without turn 1-2 plays.
- The deck runs 21 cmc 1 spells on turn 1. Often you are clearing the counter-wall path for a crop rotation to resolve later, so don't be afraid of throwing spells into dazes and pierces early on if you have more relevant spells after them. My priority of willingness-to-get-countered in the early game is from lowest importance to greatest: Candelabra -> Pithing Needle -> Map -> Brainstorm -> Sensei's Divining Top -> Crop Rotation. As the game progresses those priorities shift, but for the purpose of opening hands I keep the more I have of cards on the higher importance group, with a caveat of multiple crop rotations not being strong.

Don't keep hands that require you to be unmolested for several turns in regards to discard/destruction.
- Have faith in the deck. I will often keep hands of 5-6 lands if there are Cloudposts in them or if the remaining 1-2 cards are strong cmc 1 spells like Brainstorm, SDT, or Crop rotation.

Keeping hands with Eldrazis in them are essentially mulligans to X-y, where X is your hand size, and y is the number of Eldrazis in your hand.
- This is not true of Primeval titans, since they are castable on turn 3 with candelabras and normal conditions, or on turn 5-6 under duress.

Don't keep hands on Show & Tell.
- Show & Tell is your plan B, not plan A. Plan A is sit around, not be pressured due to repeal/bog/karakas/Hatecards doing their jobs, and then casting your stuff. Show and Tell can be a supplement to your hand, but it should never be its primary goal and only avenue.

Don't be afraid of having Cloudposts get Wastelanded early.
- I will often play Cloudpost on the blind my first turn if possible if I don't have a needle or crop rotation, since it means that they MUST wasteland it that turn or fear me drawing into more answers. Most importantly, it means they cannot develop delvers/heirarchs/vials/lackeys. Hesitating with this deck can easily cause you to lose matches you would otherwise crush.
- Keep in mind that this logic is turned on itself when on the draw, where they can play their Turn 1 board advancement, and then wasteland your tapped Cloudpost while maintaining pressure.

Keep hands entirely differently based off playing or drawing.
- One of your best cards on the play is Repeal, but it becomes one of the worst on the draw.
- Against a blind opponent Pithing needle is weak on the play, but strong on the draw. The opposite is true against a known opponent.
- SDT is amazing on the play, but weaker on the draw. Despite it being weaker on the draw, it is still one of your strongest turn 1 plays.
- Hate lands, such as Tabernacle, Bog, Karakas, are stronger on the draw after they commit. Obviously Glacial chasm is weaker on the draw due to needing two land drops.

Dangerous and Risky keeps
- Low mana hands are your most dangerous keeps. they MUST have either multiple SDT's and/or brainstorms, with a clear path to additional mana and/or shuffle effects for increasing your odds of drawing mana should you see none.
- All colorless mana source (this includes bog/karakas) hands are dangerous if you have brainstorms and repeals as your only cantrips. Despite this, Vesuva, Expedition Map, SDT, and actual colored sources as outs are an extensive list of outs, so I list this hand as not dangerous.
- All colored mana source hands are not risky at all. Crop rotations can easily convert 4 colored mana sources into a Primeval titan, or 7 mana for eye of Ugin.
- Keeping complex hands are ok. Keeping a hand of Trop, Brainstorm, Brainstorm, Crop Rotation, Crop rotation, X, X is ok if you are on the play, and riskier on the draw, but not the end of the world thalia/Chalice-withstanding. In this situation you brainstorm their eot, keeping Crop rotation up at all times for a response to wasteland, brainstorm eot, if you see nothing you crop rotate in upkeep to shuffle, draw and hope, if you see nothing brainstorm in your turn and now you've looked at 7 additional cards for a land and can still shuffle in your next upkeep should the worst happen.



Matchup Analysis and linchpin suggestions:

RUG:
This matchup is entirely dependant on your build, but comes down to what removal spells you are running and what sideboard options you have against them. Chalice is not a strong choice against them since despite them running massive numbers of 1 CmC spells, you do as well and their threats come down first. Better answered involve hindering their mana, which is often streamlined to be spent every turn. Wasteland hugely hurts them, sphere-type effects are ok, but best are propaganda type effects, which force them to choose between damage or board advancement. Elephant Grass is the best answer at the moment. Repeal hits transformed Delvers for 1 mana and draws a card. Candelabra is a liability since they lose to Show & Tell -> anything, which normally is not the case. If they do not have threats then just play land drops and pass. Never walk into counters with crop rotations if possible.

Maverick:
Show & Tell for Primeval Titan should be your main goal in this matchup. Pithing Needle as usual always names wasteland. Don't try to get cute and name things that aren't wasteland like Knight of the Reliquary or Qasali Pridemage. Wasteland for all needles all day long. In comes
The Tabernacle. If they run Armageddon then put in counters, namely Flusterstorm.

SneakyShow/Omnishow:
This is a brutal matchup as you run Show & Tell as well and can't afford to go for it against them. Game one is horrendously against your favor and comes down to absurd situations like repealing Omnishow or hoping they go for infinite-mana kill and glacial chasm'ing in response. Game two Venser comes in with all your counters. The goal should just become put Venser in your hand, and put karakas in play to bounce it indefinitely. Obviously side out Show & Tells. Be prepared for Blood Moon, Rebs and Overmaster. If they are running Sneak attack always name Sneak Attack first with Pithing needle, Sneak attack Second, Sneak attack third. If omnishow name Griselbrand. You go positive match percentage if you include three games, if two games then you are slightly lower than favorable.

U/W Miracles:
This matchup is vastly in your favor. While counterbalance hits many of your spells, the lack of threats allows you to simply wait and win against any number of counterspells. The only way they can beat you is early clique with counterbalance & top, or counterbalance top and an early Entreat. Humility doesn't stop you, only hinders your Primeval Titan plan.

Goblins/Affinity/Merfolk:
After your life total is in the 10-14 range, you should prioritize glacial chasm. Stabilizing for 3 turns should be plenty to Show & Tell a Titan or achieve Eldrazi love. Post side Tabernacle comes in, Elephant Grass is great. Revoker can come in if you feel you need the blockers, but pithing needle is often the superior choice.

TES/Storm:
Game 1 your only real avenue of play is Bojuka bog to throw off cabal therapy math, gain massive life from a Show & Tell'd Titan, or repeal a chrome mox in response to infernal tutor'ing. Game Two you bring in massive counters, Tabernacle, and an often-changing sideboard hate array. needle is no good, I side out maps often, 2 eldrazis, 1-2 titans. Keep in your brainstorms as on-top counters win games. If you're playing against 5c, realize you will need multiple counters, one for silence and one for their kill.

High Tide:
Your "best" combo matchup. They can't Brain freeze you without incredibly large effort. Still, game one is a nightmare. Needle or stop their candelabras, but Really just go to game 2. Side in Venser (on island), Traps, Chalices, Flusters, the whole shabang. You can safely side out chasm and bog, needles, Show & tell, all is dust. I alternate between if I like Show & Tell in this matchup or not. Still not sure after 100s of tested games.

New Matchups added for recent meta:

Death and Taxes:
This is a taxing control deck so treat it as such. Show & Tell Titan often blows them out, and you very rarely get to Eldrazi-casting mana levels. Titan is your plan 90% of the time. Never ever ever keep low mana hands against these guys. A 7 land hand is a snap-keep hand against anything taxing. Needle naming usually go in this order: AEther Vial, Wasteland, Rishadan Port. If Mangara is lingering about you name it of course, and the same for unequipped equipment. There are only two real threats in the deck, Aven Mindcensor and Cataclysm. You can be prepared for both by siding in Force of will or Swan Song.

Merfolk:
The true remnant of the aggro decks, this deck will lord-kill you on turn 4-5. Again you name AEther Vial first, then Wasteland. Glacial Chasm is often an easy win aveune against them. Don't be afraid to seemingly set yourself back on lands if you know you can vesuva later or have crop rotates. Do the math on how many turns you're saving with cumulative upkeep versus their attacks when you're deciding the turn to chasm. Show & Tell Titan is your main plan here again. Sweepers are awkwardly weak against this archetype, but cards like moment's peace are incredible.

Belcher:
Pithing Needle or chasm are your only plans game 1. This is winnable but mostly requires scouting or luck with their deck pittering out. Very rarely they'll go for a past in flames plan, which lets you crop-bog them. Game two your whole sideboard comes in and at that point the only enemy is the clock.

Nic Fit:
Easiest matchup ever. They don't interact with you. Just plow them over. I think you could roll dice for what card to play each turn and still bulldoze them.

Painter:
So long as you don't get greedy with your land searching this matchup is quite easy. Having innate protection against grindstone combo is great. Needle mucks them up, and they just become a 2/2 aggro deck game 1. Don't fetch out one basic only to get the land reb'd. Vesuva copies supertypes so vesuva'd basics are basic lands under blood moon. Important to remember that you can't use Eye of Ugin with Painter out since the creature isn't colorless. Just play for a slow-grindy match and you'll win. Jaya is the only real threat. Game two you bring in Revokers/Grips/Forces/Planeswalkers and just roll them.

BuG:
One of your harder matchups at the moment, but by no means hard. Needle on Lilly is often the plan, but sometimes you have repeals to infinity and wasteland is the better play. Don't not-name wasteland with a crop rotate in hand because BuG specializes in making your play off the top. One of the reasons why SDT is your best card in this matchup. Ensnaring Bridge, Planeswalkers, Show & Tell Titan are all incredible plays. Assume every Titan is going to be liliana'd.

URW Delver:
Easiest of all the delver decks. THey run STP and Bolt main, and their counters rely on taxed mana which you blast by, but they lack the cantrips or stifles of RuG. Similar to rug they rarely run artifact removal on the main so Needle will stick all of G1 and thus cementing Glacial Chasm. Game two you bring in bridge and grips.

Sneak And Show:
Game 1 you're hoping for them to blind Show & Tell a monster, and you put in a monster that attacks first or that tutors up karakas. Your only name on Pithing needle is Sneak Attack. Revoker comes in and you should expect blood moon. Game 2-3 can go very long so watch your timely play. Expect Jace and Through the Breach.

Reanimator:
Crop Rotation is your go-to responsive answer either for bojuka bog or Karakas. Don't be afraid to Show & Tell a titan against them even though that seems suicidal. Game two you side out titans though and the match becomes truly grindy. Side in counters. The only creatures you have to actually deal with are ashen rider and tidespout tyrant.

Elves:
Main deck you win by getting Glacial Chasm versus their Craterhoof Behemoth plan. Game two you can go a counter plan or chasm+needle and hope they don't get their removal before you win. My preferred method is a mix of both. Moment's Peace is great versus these guys. Pithing needle should name Deathrite Shaman, then Wirewood symbiote. Get two out for the viridian shaman.

3rd Set of new matchups
Food Chain:
This matchup entirely depends on where/if you run Phyrexian Revoker. If you do, your plan is windmill it asap. Dig and windmill. Remember that Ugin can tutor Revokers. so 9 mana is your beakpoint of 7 mana to tutor, 2 to cast. Their secondary plan of aggro with 3/3 flyers doesn't work against Turbo Eldrazi because we have such absurd life gain and chasm.

Big Red:
This deck is blood moon, Chalice @ 1, Storage Counter Red Lands, 2 Tapping Lands, Seething song, Sneak Attack, Through the Breech, and Pyromancy with enormous bricks. Sadly this is easily your worst matchup in all of Legacy. Their explosiveness is extremely difficult to interact with, Show and Tell is dead versus them (unlike every other blood moon deck), they don't slow down with their hate cards, and their speed is impressive. Ensnaring bridge is your best bet versus them, but you need to survive until turn 3-4. Still then Pyromancy can end you. Revokers, needles, Engineered Explosives and all your counterspells should come in. Essentially 15 cards.

Ichorid:
This isn't new but apparently I didn't have the deck listed as matchups. This matchup comes down to show & tells and crop rotates. Crop rotate is your supreme silver bullet. Wait for them to dig deep and then respond to narcomoeba trigger(s) with a crop rotate for bojuka bog. Pithing needle can slow them down on Putrid Imp, or Cephalid Coliseum. And if they are going slowly, Phyrexian revoker on LED is strong. Remember you can also Phyrexian Revoke "Street Wraith." Game 1, pre Ashen Riders, they often have zero outs to Glacial Chasm. Be prepared for them to bring in Leyline of Singularity to stop Bojuka bog. Show & Tell Titan is again your trump play.

Lands:
You would think that recurring wasteland.deck is a bad matchup, but that couldn't be further from the truth. The key to this matchup is tactfully playing your bojuka bog. Not letting them waste your bojuka bog before you're vesuva'ing it. And not forgetting that you need to keep up bounce for their marit liege. If you do 2 of these actions once in one game, they lose all their steam. Pithing needle stops them cold. Simply play safe and passive.

GIANT WARNING!
While the core of this deck is set in stone, the entire sideboard and 5-7 slots main are flex slots. They are adaptable based on meta shifts and/or exploratory builds. I often change my deck weekly and sometimes daily within these shifting slots. I will post my newest lists that are successful, but if you dislike oft-changing lists, this may not be the best deck for you.



Ask for More Matchup breakdowns and I will include them


Current list as of Sept 16:
// Lands
2 [10E] Island (3)
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
2 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [M15] Forest (3)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm

// Creatures
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
2 [SOM] Platinum Emperion

// Spells
4 [TSP] Trickbind
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [TSP] Wipe Away
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [UL] Crop Rotation

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [FNM] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [NPH] Dismember


Card Availability and Choices:

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[Rock Lee]

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[Zirath]

Finally. This deserved a proper thread here.

Any thoughts on the GW and mono Green 12-Post lists that have been showing up recently? I'd cite some lists but it may not be necessary.

[Rock Lee]

Finally. This deserved a proper thread here.

Any thoughts on the GW and mono Green 12-Post lists that have been showing up recently? I'd cite some lists but it may not be necessary.

the GW Euro lists are honestly more Maverick than they are Turbo Eldrazi. Turbo Eldrazi is a control deck through and through. It is defined by its manabase, but not inclusive of other decks because of it. For Example the MUD list that relatively recently top 32'd a SCG with Cloudpost as its manabase isn't Turbo Eldrazi. The Euro lists are often GSZ based and mostly focused on board supremacy over card advantage and late game dominance. I have tested every list of GW that has done well, and while they are ok in their own lights, I feel like Maverick was simply stronger than them.

The mono Green lists I mention several times in the Development thread, but to simplify it, If combo becomes less prevalent and Glacial chasm stops a larger portion of the meta, without Abrupt decay seeing play, then Mono Green could become the wiser play. Running Forest's only real benefit is that it gets around Magus of the Moon, which in an abrupt-decay Deathrite-Shaman enabled meta, seems foolhardy.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

You should ironically use the artwork for Lay Bare as the cover picture in the OP.

[Rock Lee]

You should ironically use the artwork for Lay Bare as the cover picture in the OP.

I love that image of Kozilek. The sheer power and aura of doom they are imbuing to those paltry soldiers is exactly what Turbo Eldrazi does to players. I used to play Control Slaver in Vintage simply because I sadistically loved seeing people want to gouge their own eyes out. Turbo Eldrazi has the same effect.

[Seirei]

Just a quick question, is this thread exclusive for the green/blue list or can other variants like mono-green be discussed aswell?

[Rock Lee]

Just a quick question, is this thread exclusive for the green/blue list or can other variants like mono-green be discussed aswell?

Any variant of Cloudpost-related-control is welcome here. Even non-control variants are open for discussion. I have yet to have any success with other variants, but I have tested them significantly. So yes mono green can be talked about freely. I just warn you that I might give you playtesting and results that you may not like as I believe that the mono-green version is inferior to the U/G version at the moment, and my goal is to create and update the most competitive version of Cloudpost related control.

[TheBoozeCube]

Rock,

I notice you haven't seemed to be playing much with All Is Dust, which seems like the most powerful removal spell the deck has at its disposal. What's your reasoning here?

And again, congrats on the Open finish. That was awesome.

[catmint]

Why do you state that the deck is "control"? To me it looks like like you play ramp & combo elements (Show&Tell, Primeval) where you can ignore everything fair that your opponent does, but will likely have a bad matchup against unfair decks. The control elements you run seem to have the primary purpose to extend the game until you cast emrakul or to protect your manabase.
- Repeal
- Crop rotation toolbox (Karakas, Bojuka Bog, Glacial Chasm)
- Pithing Needle (vs. Wasteland)

For my understanding this is a slow combodeck which cannot be easily disrupted, but does not have the characteristic of a control deck, which primarily stops the opponent from doing whatever he is doing and then (if combo) finishing with a combo.

[menace13]

The Spanish are putting up top 8s with mono Green, and others splashing white, and/or Black for StP/Deed. Check TCdecks under Post Ramp.

I dont agree that they are Maverick, It isnt even the same deck.
How With 4StP, A single Teeg and a few Green Suns?


The earliest record of Cloudposts top 8'ing(on TCdecks search) is 4 months before Rock did, but a different list using Chalice, Trini, and Tangle(notice his strange Spirit Guide split for no apparent reason).
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/busqueda.php?nombre=Jorge%20Rubalcaba

Same search also yielded another player in the same event as you did Rock Lee, top 8'ing with a Miracle based list. Have you tried these as well?

[Rico Suave]

The earliest record of Cloudposts top 8'ing(on TCdecks search) is 4 months before Rock did, but a different list using Chalice, Trini, and Tangle(notice his strange Spirit Guide split for no apparent reason).
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/busqueda.php?nombre=Jorge%20Rubalcaba

I'm positive Rock Lee was playing Cloudpost to success before that point in time. TCdecks search appears to be incomplete in this regard.

[Rock Lee]

The Spanish are putting up top 8s with mono Green, and others splashing white, and/or Black for StP/Deed. Check TCdecks under Post Ramp.

I dont agree that they are Maverick, It isnt even the same deck.
How With 4StP, A single Teeg and a few Green Suns?


The earliest record of Cloudposts top 8'ing(on TCdecks search) is 4 months before Rock did, but a different list using Chalice, Trini, and Tangle(notice his strange Spirit Guide split for no apparent reason).
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/busqueda.php?nombre=Jorge%20Rubalcaba

Same search also yielded another player in the same event as you did Rock Lee, top 8'ing with a Miracle based list. Have you tried these as well?

I'd be extremely impressed if these lists were making top 8's before I did, as my first top 8 with Eldrazi was in 2008. Ego aside though, if you look at the two Post ramp decks that are doing well outside of this deck design in Europe, there is a stronger similarity to the MUD list from SCG Here (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=48940) than there is the build I run with Eldrazi. The deck essentially tries to be a full on combo deck, that is slower than most aggro decks and all combo decks. I applaud his bravery, but if you look at his standings, he is always knocked out by established combo and aggro decks that are simply faster than he is.

[Rock Lee]

Why do you state that the deck is "control"? To me it looks like like you play ramp & combo elements (Show&Tell, Primeval) where you can ignore everything fair that your opponent does, but will likely have a bad matchup against unfair decks. The control elements you run seem to have the primary purpose to extend the game until you cast emrakul or to protect your manabase.
- Repeal
- Crop rotation toolbox (Karakas, Bojuka Bog, Glacial Chasm)
- Pithing Needle (vs. Wasteland)

For my understanding this is a slow combodeck which cannot be easily disrupted, but does not have the characteristic of a control deck, which primarily stops the opponent from doing whatever he is doing and then (if combo) finishing with a combo.

The way I play the deck is entirely a preventative strategy. Needle on accelerants and kill conditions, bog to sweep the leg Cobra Kai style against mongeese, repeals on mana or damage like heirarch or delver. I will play slower with trops first if I can crop rotate in response to a wasteland, which is not a combo play but rather a controlling one.


Rock,

I notice you haven't seemed to be playing much with All Is Dust, which seems like the most powerful removal spell the deck has at its disposal. What's your reasoning here?

And again, congrats on the Open finish. That was awesome.

All is Dust is one of the most powerful removal spells, but it is linear in its function and weak against artifacts. From stoneblade forward where equipment have become a staple of Legacy, killing all the dudes but letting them keep their threats around was good, but not as good as I needed it to be. In my opinion if you are running in a meta where you feel you must answer the board, as I simply ignore it for the most part, a combination of All is Dust and Devastation Tide is the correct choice.

[civet five]

I still periodically dabble with the Miracle U/G TurboEldrazi lists, and I'm not sure that I've ever had a Devastation Tide in hand and said "aww man I wish this was All Is Dust".

[menace13]

I'd be extremely impressed if these lists were making top 8's before I did, as my first top 8 with Eldrazi was in 2008. .
Rico- I figured that would be true, just wanted to see If anyone tried that list. Also good to have you back posting bud.

Rock- That would be impossible since Eldrazi were released in April 2010.

[blindspotxxx]

Finally in the Established Decks! I hope for more Eldrazzi finishes :)

[(nameless one)]

Hey Rock Lee,

Outside of Wasteland, what would be the most common cards named under Pithing Needle?

Also, have you considered running Mindslaver + Academy Ruins? Its really more for the nostalgia reasons ;)

[Rock Lee]

Rock- That would be impossible since Eldrazi were released in April 2010.

You don't even want to know what I was tutoring up with Eye of Ugin when WWK came out, but yes that was still Feb of 2010. what an exaggerator I am.

[Rock Lee]

Hey Rock Lee,

Outside of Wasteland, what would be the most common cards named under Pithing Needle?

Also, have you considered running Mindslaver + Academy Ruins? Its really more for the nostalgia reasons ;)

If they can run any form of removal I name wasteland again. But I usually name off a color coordination and in this priority: Sneak Attack, Griselbrand, Wirewood Symbiote, Quirion Ranger, Liliana of the Veil, Aether Vial, Karn Liberated, Kuldotha Forgemaster, Mangara of Corondor, Man-lands, Rishadan Port, Fetchlands.

I have named all manner of insane things like Gempalm incinerator, Helm of Awakening, Sterling Grove, Basalt Monolith just to name a few. I have yet to find a competitive deck that doesn't have something to hit.

[Michael Keller]

...Helm of Obedience...

Fixed?

[TraxDaMax]

Is Exploration too dead in this deck? Or what is the reasoning behind not running it?

[(nameless one)]

I'm gonna start building up with this deck but will play it as my "casual" deck. If only Frantic Search were unbanned... I wouldn't need tons of cash for Candelabra.

Speaking of Candelabra, why only one Rock Lee? You have a playset. Is SDTop and Brainstorm good enough in finding the miser Candle?

[TraxDaMax]

I'm gonna start building up with this deck but will play it as my "casual" deck. If only Frantic Search were unbanned... I wouldn't need tons of cash for Candelabra.

Speaking of Candelabra, why only one Rock Lee? You have a playset. Is SDTop and Brainstorm good enough in finding the miser Candle?

If you're on a budget there is the tad weaker Magus of the Candelbra. A plus about him though is that he's "fetchable" with Green Sun's Zenith. I think I would definately run him since I don't own the real deal, and even though I am able to make a G/U version, I'd probably try to keep it monogreen with Explorations, Crop Rotations and Green Sun's Zenith as I've learned from Rock's report, it feels that Titan is the best card in the deck. And having virtually 8 of them seems good at first glance.

[(nameless one)]

I feel Rock Lee's build is the optimal one versus mono green and white green versions.

I'm building one sole for entertainment/multiplayer kitchen purpose only (just like I did with Parfait when Land Tax was banned).

[Tonberryx]

I actually played lee it the 5th round of providence with dredge and after losing to him I really want to build this deck. It's so awesome so congrats sir you have converted another to this crazy cool deck.

[HoneyT]

Also, just for the record, Glimmerpost wasn't printed till October of 2010. THAT card is kind of a big deal. It was shortly after that, my friend and I also came up with a really early Mono Green version and started tearing up local tournaments. I also piloted the deck to a Top 32 finish at an SCG open a couple months later.

[Rock Lee]

Fixed?

You can totally name Helm of Awakening with Needle. Then again you can name Island too.

[civet five]

I just snagged the Tabernacle I've been missing. Woohoo

To anyone missing the Tabernacle - DO NOT USE Magus of the Tabernacle. It does not work. I actually found the U/G Miracles version can survive without it, especially with a second Glacial Chasm and some Elephant Grass in the sideboard.

Same thing with Magus of the Candelabra - even with GSZ, it sucks because of Summoning Sickness. It just gets killed too easily before you get value out of it.

@Rock Lee - have you come across any Dragon Stompy or any other decks running Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon? I don't feel like its totally unwinnable, since DS is unstable enough that they often cannot put any pressure on you besides that Turn2 Magus. In about 4 of 10 games I tested pre-sideboard, I was able to Miracle a Devastation Tide EOT and get a threat down before they could actually kill me. I assume that the same would have held true for casting a Repeal for 3 or 4 and getting an explosive turn. Thoughts?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I just snagged the Tabernacle I've been missing. Woohoo

To anyone missing the Tabernacle - DO NOT USE Magus of the Tabernacle. It does not work. I actually found the U/G Miracles version can survive without it, especially with a second Glacial Chasm and some Elephant Grass in the sideboard.

Same thing with Magus of the Candelabra - even with GSZ, it sucks because of Summoning Sickness. It just gets killed too easily before you get value out of it.

@Rock Lee - have you come across any Dragon Stompy or any other decks running Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon? I don't feel like its totally unwinnable, since DS is unstable enough that they often cannot put any pressure on you besides that Turn2 Magus. In about 4 of 10 games I tested pre-sideboard, I was able to Miracle a Devastation Tide EOT and get a threat down before they could actually kill me. I assume that the same would have held true for casting a Repeal for 3 or 4 and getting an explosive turn. Thoughts?

It's not 2009 anymore. Play lands till you can cast something or play an Oblivion Stone if it's that important.

[TheBoozeCube]

Is Exploration too dead in this deck? Or what is the reasoning behind not running it?

It's played in mono green builds.

[HoneyT]

It's not 2009 anymore. Play lands till you can cast something or play an Oblivion Stone if it's that important.

To be fair, Rock Lee's version is hindered a lot more by Moon effects. He doesn't play as many basics and can't just play six lands and cast a Titan with only one basic Forest. And he's not playing Wurmcoil Engine or anything like that. Prioritizing fetching the one basic Island is necessary in those cases. Being able to still cast Show and Tell or Repeal should get you out of it.

[Julian23]

Since we're discussing the deck on a competitive (read: maximizing EV) level, Dragon Stomp can easily be neglected. The amount of effort put into trying to still work under Blood Moon just isn't worth the close-to-zero relevance of Dragon Stompy.

[death]

What made you realize that Show and Tell is a 4-of in this deck and that upping the creature count is the right move? Why did it took 2 years?

[Rock Lee]

@Rock Lee - have you come across any Dragon Stompy or any other decks running Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon? I don't feel like its totally unwinnable, since DS is unstable enough that they often cannot put any pressure on you besides that Turn2 Magus. In about 4 of 10 games I tested pre-sideboard, I was able to Miracle a Devastation Tide EOT and get a threat down before they could actually kill me. I assume that the same would have held true for casting a Repeal for 3 or 4 and getting an explosive turn. Thoughts?

Similar to what HoneyT said. If I were worrying about Moon effects, the Mono Green version is stronger, but not significantly stronger. If Moons are in your meta, run 3 basics islands, 3 Trops, 3 Fetchlands, Devastation Tide instead of Tabernacle & x2 Elephant Grass (In that 3 spot) in your sb.

Dragon Stompy loses to any Show & Tell choice. Bring in your Revokers and name their equipment or pump dude if in play. Stalling out the game wins you this one again, having 8 straight removal spells for moon effects, 15 with Venser + Tide, and being able to fetch out basic lands under magus of the moon is not something they can deal with.


Since we're discussing the deck on a competitive (read: maximizing EV) level, Dragon Stomp can easily be neglected. The amount of effort put into trying to still work under Blood Moon just isn't worth the close-to-zero relevance of Dragon Stompy.

Focusing on EV is an easy way to lose with this deck. Random Combo, which Dragon Stompy belongs to, is THE "archetype" that Turbo Eldrazi loses to. I have been knocked out of several SCG's in the past because I was paired against 3x affinity lists and one of them drew the nuts, or Dragon Stompy 2x and one of them had sauce draws.

Normally the rule with a deck is "playtest your likely top 8 matchups," with this deck the rule is "playtest every random crazy deck you can, because you crush everyone else."



What made you realize that Show and Tell is a 4-of in this deck and that upping the creature count is the right move? Why did it took 2 years?

I still waffle between 3-4 Show & Tell even in this build. The reason it is 4 at the moment is because RuG is against-all-odds still beating abrupt decay. Or possibly abrupt decay has not taken enough of a hold for people to netdeck a winning list. At the SCG I was at recently the BUG control list in Top 4 would have beaten RUG under normal conditions, but Elliott, the RUG player, has the luck of the Gods and ripped several times in a row with no filter exactly his outs. Against hand disruption, Show and Tell is strictly worse than a Ponder or Thirst for Knowledge.

When your mana and lands are being pressured while you are being clocked, which is exactly what RUG does, then Show & Tell is stronger.

If the meta moves more towards control and permission then you will see me completely drop Show & Tell for more card advantage. To answer the question though, Show & Tell isn't a "4 of" in the deck. At the moment it is, but that is entirely metagame dependent.

[Raystar]

Congrats on the finish Rock Lee!

I have tested your SCG build and (meta considerations aside) it seems to flow better than the latest 4 Repeal builds you proposed in the old thread, very good job indeed.

I only have one question on your SB: given the high amount of needle effects you have post board, are the cursed totems really needed? What were the match-ups that were in your mind that had to be managed by the totem instead of needle effects?

[PetesMcskeets]

Congrat's Rock Lee on your SCG finish! I did enjoy your carrot pointing throughout the top 8.
I played a very similar(near identical) list on tuesday at our legacy night.

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Instants + Sorceries (16)
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
4 Repeal
4 Show and Tell
Artifacts (12)
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
Lands (25)
4 Tropical Island
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
4 Vesuva
1 Island

Sideboard (15)
1 Angel of Despair
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Flusterstorm
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

Ran the same maindeck as your scg list, slightly changed sb.
Low turnout tournament, 11 people, got 1st. I did not have another venser so I played an angel of despair, and then I did not have another angel, so I played an oblivion ring lol.

Anyways, first round on camera: http://www.twitch.tv/southfloridamagic/b/335824038

Rd2 vs Ur delver:
G1: He stifle's some of my glimmerpost triggers but doesn't have any pressure, I play a titan to take over the game, he price's me for half my life eot, and I expect to die on his turn, but he doesn't have the other price or a snapcaster, on to g2.
G2: He lands an early delver and then another, but they don't flip right away, then a sulfuric vortex. I'm holding two repeals so on the end of his turn 4 I repeal, he counters. I SNT in titan, he puts a creature in, I bounce his vortex in response to trigger and get chasm+glimmerpost. He passes, I attack and trade my titan with his two delvers and get an eldrazi soon enough.

Rd3 vs TES:
G1: he ad nauseams early and hits chaff to go to 4 life, can't win that turn, I get a snt for p titan, he puts in land, I get double glimmer I believe. He goes for it next turn and fizzles( New player to storm combo) after he concede's the game I show him how he could have gone off.
G2: He mulls to five and I land an early chalice, then drop in titan.

Rd4 vs Death and Taxes(same as finals)
He's paired up, so I concede to not dream crush, he wants to play anyways. I win 2-0 off of early SNT'S into titans, through Thalia one game and Thalia + Judge's familiar the other. Pithing needles were involved.

Semi's vs Omnitell
http://www.twitch.tv/southfloridamagic/b/335834575 at about 2 hours, 7 minutes.

Finals vs Death and Taxes
http://www.twitch.tv/southfloridamagic/b/335834575 at about 2 hours 40 minutes.
Edit: I probably should have mulliganed the first game of finals, I had to bank on alot of things happening my way to win. I also accidently cheated by playing SNT through Thalia, trying to get it past my opponent's Judge's familiars (which he let me) which made me temporarily forget about Thalia.

Enjoy, and congratulations on your finish again.

[mini1337s]

Recordings are up:

Turbo Eldrazi vs Reanimator: http://blip.tv/scglive/scg-prov-lgc-top-8b-jeremiah-rudolph-vs-drew-rosen-6402262
Turbo Eldrazi vs Goblins: http://blip.tv/scglive/scg-prov-lgc-top-4b-jim-davis-vs-jeremiah-rudolph-6402186
Turbo Eldrazi vs RUG: http://blip.tv/scglive/scg-prov-lgc-top-2-elliott-wolchesky-vs-jeremiah-rudolph-6402177


http://creemorefarmersmarket.ca/storage/carrot.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1332953257849

[Philipp2293]

Looking at your current list I wonder why you went down to 1 Emrakul. I've always liked the crutch of 2 Emrakuls when going infinite.

[Rock Lee]

Looking at your current list I wonder why you went down to 1 Emrakul. I've always liked the crutch of 2 Emrakuls when going infinite.

Ultimately it was exactly that. Often I don't have to go Infinite, but Karakas still enables it. It does mean sometimes when I want to go infinite I have to "get there" with Kozilek drawing me 4 bonus cards with one of them being a land tutor. And sometimes I have to get there with Tabernacle + 1 Emrakul for infinite. I squeezed more deck space for density whereas an Emrakul is almost always dead in hand.


I only have one question on your SB: given the high amount of needle effects you have post board, are the cursed totems really needed? What were the match-ups that were in your mind that had to be managed by the totem instead of needle effects?

Yeah the Revoker was a late-addition. My more recent sideboard if you look on the 1st page has the cursed totems dropped for Elephant Grass

[Rock Lee]

Recordings are up:

Turbo Eldrazi vs Reanimator: http://blip.tv/scglive/scg-prov-lgc-top-8b-jeremiah-rudolph-vs-drew-rosen-6402262
Turbo Eldrazi vs Goblins: http://blip.tv/scglive/scg-prov-lgc-top-4b-jim-davis-vs-jeremiah-rudolph-6402186
Turbo Eldrazi vs RUG: http://blip.tv/scglive/scg-prov-lgc-top-2-elliott-wolchesky-vs-jeremiah-rudolph-6402177
[/IMG]


I watched the Reanimator coverage, which was by far my favorite. I love how the 2nd guy calls me out for "taking 3-4 minutes for tutoring" when it has been 40 seconds, and is saying how I have zero plays against Reanimator in my deck when Karakas and Bojuka Bog blow him out, and then finally the guy's mind gets blown when I win it handily.

Commentators. They follow the same logic as cynically stated about teachers, if you can't do, teach.

Also does anyone know what the term "tanking" means? They said it every time I looked with Sensei's Divining Top, no matter how brief.

[menace13]

I love how the 2nd guy calls me out for "taking 3-4 minutes for tutoring" when it has been 40 seconds, and is saying how I have zero plays against Reanimator in my deck when Karakas and Bojuka Bog blow him out, and then finally the guy's mind gets blown when I win it handily.

Commentators. They follow the same logic as cynically stated about teachers, if you can't do, teach.

Also does anyone know what the term "tanking" means? They said it every time I looked with Sensei's Divining Top, no matter how brief.

Tanking is going deep into thought.

Also, are you okay? It was almost 4 minutes of nothing with his Reanimate on the stack, not 40 seconds. More like 40 seconds x5

[Rock Lee]

Tanking is going deep into thought.

Also, are you okay? It was almost 4 minutes of nothing with his Reanimate on the stack, not 40 seconds. More like 40 seconds x5

at 27:50 he announces his targets, I look at sb and fetch at 29:40. Even if you ignore the sideboard check and the over 20 possible plays I had, that's far less than 4 minutes. He calls out "fetching a land" taking 4 minutes after 20 seconds of searching. Hilarious in my opinion.

[menace13]

at 27:50 he announces his targets, I look at sb and fetch at 29:40. Even if you ignore the sideboard check and the over 20 possible plays I had, that's far less than 4 minutes. He calls out "fetching a land" taking 4 minutes after 20 seconds of searching. Hilarious in my opinion.

Umm. it was a 6 minute Reanimate....... on the stack for 6 minutes. It hit the bin after 34:00. You took about 4+ of those minutes had there been a chess clock.

[(nameless one)]

Why is this argument happening?

Where's the "this mono-green list [insert list here] is not only budget friendly but can also do well in a meta dominated with [insert decks here]"?

[Darkenslight]

Umm. it was a 6 minute Reanimate....... on the stack for 6 minutes. It hit the bin after 34:00. You took about 4+ of those minutes had there been a chess clock.

The whole thing took 6 minutes. Now, two of that was taken up by Drew, through the searching, choosing targets etc. I'm pretty sure that Rock could have played slightly faster, but most of the decisions that turn took l;ess than 30 seconds, except the choosing of targets for the first FStorm, which took 45. I get the impression that Rock plays ponderously.

[SBGpinas]

Anyone ever tried Crucible of Worlds in their list, for some recurring Glacial Chasm shenanigans?

Imagine never having to pay 2 life for it's Cumulative Upkeep cost.....

[Rock Lee]

Anyone ever tried Crucible of Worlds in their list, for some recurring Glacial Chasm shenanigans?

Imagine never having to pay 2 life for it's Cumulative Upkeep cost.....

Please refer to the development thread where mono-green lists and crucible are discussed ad nauseum.

[Philipp2293]

Hi, could you maybe give a quick rundown of your SBin plans for the major archetypes? Gonna play this at our Sunday Legacy tomorrow, and honestly, so far I've only boarded with my gut instinct.

[blindspotxxx]

Hey Rock Lee

How do you beat Fish? It seems to be a bad match up. Disruption and fast beats. That's my only loss last Thursday Legacy went 3-1 :) Deck is fun lol

[kavaki]

I watched the Reanimator coverage, which was by far my favorite. I love how the 2nd guy calls me out for "taking 3-4 minutes for tutoring" when it has been 40 seconds, and is saying how I have zero plays against Reanimator in my deck when Karakas and Bojuka Bog blow him out, and then finally the guy's mind gets blown when I win it handily.

Commentators. They follow the same logic as cynically stated about teachers, if you can't do, teach.


For more in depth, here is the time frame we're talking about:

Reanimate hits the board: 27:37
You look at SB (I assume): 28:47- 29:06
Cracks fetch: 29:39
"" fetches trop. island: 30:03
Commentators comment about the "3-4" minute fetching: 30:24

Im sorry, but since when is the difference between 29:39-30:03, 3-4 minutes?


Now, to my point, What made you decide to try this deck originally?

[Rock Lee]

Hey Rock Lee

How do you beat Fish? It seems to be a bad match up. Disruption and fast beats. That's my only loss last Thursday Legacy went 3-1 :) Deck is fun lol

Fish meaning Merfolk? Elephant Grass destroys them and they lose to Primeval Titan.


What made you decide to try this deck originally?

Eye of Ugin intrigued me so I played a build with cloudpost and vesuva with 4x Candelabras that would power out sundering titan. It was super bad, but it meant that when Emrakul got spoiled I immediately jumped on the idea of a combo-control deck that relied on sacrificing early tempo and control for late-game dominance.

I always love playing control in nearly every format and even in other games, but Legacy didn't have a "true" control deck at the time like U/W Miracles. So I tried to make a control deck that controlled by inevitability and ability to ignore most threats.

[Philipp2293]

So, I did pretty well with Rock Lees list yesterday -1 Revoker +1 Elephant Grass. Took 3rd place at my locals and won an artist altered Polluted Delta.

MUs were UW Miracles (2-0), Team America (2-1), Omniscience (0-2), Reanimator (2-0) and Esperblade (2-0). Omniscience is really rough.

I tried to repeal Omniscience with Defense Grid in play, but he had the REB and I couldn't Flusterstorm because of the Grid. Otherwise I'd had taken an Emrakul hit and probably gone infinite/close to infinite on my turn (I showed in Primeval Titan). But it feels like a really rough MU, unfortunately the deck is rather popular in my area.

Rest of the meta was pretty much a cakewalk. My only loss from Team America was from him having Decay for my Needle, Wasteland to slow me down, double Goyf and a counter for my Elephant Grass.

If anyone is interested in a more detailed writeup say so and I'll try to remember what I can.

[Rock Lee]

So, I did pretty well with Rock Lees list yesterday -1 Revoker +1 Elephant Grass. Took 3rd place at my locals and won an artist altered Polluted Delta.

MUs were UW Miracles (2-0), Team America (2-1), Omniscience (0-2), Reanimator (2-0) and Esperblade (2-0). Omniscience is really rough.

I tried to repeal Omniscience with Defense Grid in play, but he had the REB and I couldn't Flusterstorm because of the Grid. Otherwise I'd had taken an Emrakul hit and probably gone infinite/close to infinite on my turn (I showed in Primeval Titan). But it feels like a really rough MU, unfortunately the deck is rather popular in my area.

Rest of the meta was pretty much a cakewalk. My only loss from Team America was from him having Decay for my Needle, Wasteland to slow me down, double Goyf and a counter for my Elephant Grass.

If anyone is interested in a more detailed writeup say so and I'll try to remember what I can.

Sorry about slowness about getting back to you on specifics on sideboarding. I was at a marathon of double-tournaments this weekend and only got back late last night.

Grats on your showing. If Omnishow is popular in your area just increase your venser count to 3-4 and they can't beat you.


I ended up throwing my Top 8 chances at Jupiter, with the deck giving me exactly what I needed and me just fritting it away.

Sunday Oct 22 I went X-1 at Hartsdale in the Swiss and Split the Top 4 when my teammate Scott Hughes who is also playing Turbo Eldrazi was paired with me in Top 4. So Turbo Eldrazi took 50$ of the total prize in that event. A special kind of win!

[blindspotxxx]

Fish meaning Merfolk? Elephant Grass destroys them and they lose to Primeval Titan.



Eye of Ugin intrigued me so I played a build with cloudpost and vesuva with 4x Candelabras that would power out sundering titan. It was super bad, but it meant that when Emrakul got spoiled I immediately jumped on the idea of a combo-control deck that relied on sacrificing early tempo and control for late-game dominance.

I always love playing control in nearly every format and even in other games, but Legacy didn't have a "true" control deck at the time like U/W Miracles. So I tried to make a control deck that controlled by inevitability and ability to ignore most threats.

Yeah but you know they have aether vial for pumpage, islandwalk, wasteland and counter magic. Such a terrible matchup :cry:

[Rock Lee]

Yeah but you know they have aether vial for pumpage, islandwalk, wasteland and counter magic. Such a terrible matchup :cry:

Of all the aggro matchups I would consider Merfolk the worst, but still positive. Yes all the statements you make are true, but they cave to Show & Tell more than any other matchup, elephant grass prevents even more damage than most decks due to mutavault shutdown, and they run zero removal for Pithing Needle unlike all other aggro decks. Their counters are often limited to Daze and Force. If you play to these strengths and keep according hands, the matchup is easily in the positive.

[Philipp2293]

So, short report from yesterday.

Round 1 against UW Miracles:

G1: I sit across an unfamiliar face and ask him where he's from and if he's a longtime player, and he says that it's his first legacy tournament. I'm not too happy that I might face some wacky deck round 1 or burn or something. He opens on Tundra and Top. Nice. I make a top myself too and since it resolves I'm in really good shape. He has counterbalance lock next turn, I do nothing but drop Lands, he does also nothing since its Miracles. I attempt Show and Tell with Titan in hand, top finds him nothing, he forces. Next turn I retry the next Show, with help of fetches he finds the an Entreat for Balance. Next turn I hardcast Ulamog, which blows up balance. He doesn't have removal in hand or in his top 3, so he scoops to Ulamog attack.
do
G2: Again we both open on Top, but this time he stalls on 2 Lands, one of them a Karakas, so I crop rotate for my own to basically take him out of the game. His first brainstorm doesn't find him anything, after he draw-discards two times I flusterstorm his next Brainstorm and have an Emrakul soon afterwards.

Round 2 against Team America:

G1: This guy is a very familiar face and a really nice guy. He's usually on Death and Taxes, but before the event he was asking people for Delvers and since he played Team America in the past I put him on that. He starts with Delver, while I open with Needle on Wasteland. He soon finds an Abrupt Decay for the Needle, but fortunately only one Wasteland before I find my second Needle. I play a Top, Delver gets repealed, but I frown as he sticks a Sylvan Library at pretty high life. Soon enough Delver plus Goyfs pressure me. I map for Chasm, then drop a Titan. Despite the double Glimmposts it found me I'm on pretty low life. As he attacks with double Goyf I have to block with Titan, since I'm dead to a Decay on me Needle since he sits with Wasteland in play. He dismembers my Titan, but has no out for Needle. Next turn I cast Emrakul, to my attack he sacks Lands and blocks with Delver, so he still has double Goyf and Library in play, with 1 card left in Hand. I cast Kozilek which draws me Repeal for the 2nd Goyf and his last Goyf can't punch through for lethal.

G2: I open on coloured mana, some posts, Needle, Brainstorm and Elephant Grass. Sounds good......on paper. He has pretty good hand: Needle gets decayed, lands get wasted, Grass and Brainstorm countered, I'm dead to double Goyf within like 4 minutes.

G3: We have only 7 minutes left on the clock, so I reboard my Show and Tells. I resolve it for Titan while drops Tombstalker and he already has Delver in play. He plays Needle on Eye and double blocks with Stalker and Delver. We enter the extra turn with me at 27 life. Unfortunately I don't draw anything relevant from the top, but convince him to scoop to me since I think I can crush the rest of the decks except for the Omniscience decks.

Round 3 against Omniscience:

G1: I know what he's on and figure I can only win G1 if he is stupid and drops anything that's not Omniscience. Turns out he isn't.

G2: We both durdle around. At one point I have Flusterstorm, Titan, Eye of Ugin and Repeal in hand, while he has Defense Grid in play. If I get another turn I drop the Eye I've been hiding from him and cast Emrakul. He opens with Overmaster which I let resolves into Show and Tell. He makes Omniscience, I make Titan. Unfortunately I'm mana short to Repeal with Titan trigger on the stack, so I have to let the trigger resolves and get moar posts. He casts Emrakul, I try to Repeal in response, he has the REB and I can't Flusterstorm due to the Defense Grid. At this point I was so high on permanents that I could have taken the Emrakul hit and gone infinite on my next turn.

Round 4 against Reanimator:

G1 & G2: Since I get paired down and he can't get into prices anymore he scoops to me. We play it out for fun and I 2-0, opening on Karakas both games, but I played really sloppy as in most just for fun games in between more serious matches, so I'll spare you the details.

Round 5 against Esperblade:

G1: He's a teammate, we both know what each other is on, and we both know he can't possibly win. G1 he durdles with Stoneforge Mystic. I hardcast Emrakul turn 4.
G2: He gets some early Clique beats in, I Show and Tell for Titan and have the Flusterstorm for his Counterspell. Titan enters and it's over soon afterwards.

Looking forward I'm probably gonna replace the Revokers with more Venser's like Rock suggested. Other top tables looked like Cakewalks (Maverick, Nic Fit.....you get the picture).

On a sidenote: Team America seems to be in nice shape with Abrupt Decay.

[Rock Lee]

So, short report from yesterday.



Some ideas Phillipp.

Against U/W Miracles, In game 2 if you use vesuva to legend kill Karakas, you keep your own in library, and against U/W Miracles you don't need the vesuvax4 as much as you would if you needed Glacial Chasms.

Against Team America, In game 1 if you hadn't map'd for Glacial Chasm you could have tutored it up with Primeval titan and not had to block, putting you in a very strong situation.

Against Omnishow, In game 1, if you get Glimmerposts with Primeval Titan, you put another trigger on the stack (the lifegain) that you can then respond to by repealing. Also against Omnishow, I find that if I counter Overmaster they will hold back more often than not. It also puts them down a card and enables you to Fluster their Show & Tell right afterwards if you have it.

Lastly, if you are worried about legend killing shenanigans and weakness against MuD/Mirror, you can go 2x Venser, Shaper Savant and 2x Spine of Ish Sah, which both Trump Omnishow, but have added utility in other matches.

[Philipp2293]

Thanks, those are good points you put regarding both Vesuva and the Glimmerpoint Lifegain trigger, absolutely didn't consider that. As for the game against Team America, I've had the Chasm in play and found the Titan afterwards with top after I've payed twice for chasm already.

[Rock Lee]

Thanks, those are good points you put regarding both Vesuva and the Glimmerpoint Lifegain trigger, absolutely didn't consider that. As for the game against Team America, I've had the Chasm in play and found the Titan afterwards with top after I've payed twice for chasm already.

I gotcha, then no vesuva (Glacial Chasm copy) + Glimmerpost off the titan? I often let my titans sit around for a few turns if I'm in an advantageous position even without attacking. especially if you faced double-blocks, it seems like a stronger position. Lets you build up a larger Locus count and even with a waste he can't swing back.

[Seirei]

By the way, how do you guys determine which starting hand you hold and when to mulligan?

What has to be on your hand to say that it won't work out and are there any cards that MUST be on your starting hand?

[Rock Lee]

By the way, how do you guys determine which starting hand you hold and when to mulligan?

What has to be on your hand to say that it won't work out and are there any cards that MUST be on your starting hand?

Hand keeping is the most important skill with this deck. It is the reason that I suggest heavy playtesting for someone who wants to have success with the deck at competitive events. My best simple guide to hand keeping would best be put as a priority of axioms and some general rules. I'll probably put this on the first page since it is so important to piloting the deck well.

Don't keep hands without turn 1-2 plays.
- The deck runs 21 cmc 1 spells on turn 1. Often you are clearing the counter-wall path for a crop rotation to resolve later, so don't be afraid of throwing spells into dazes and pierces early on if you have more relevant spells after them. My priority of willingness-to-get-countered in the early game is from lowest importance to greatest: Candelabra -> Pithing Needle -> Map -> Brainstorm -> Sensei's Divining Top -> Crop Rotation. As the game progresses those priorities shift, but for the purpose of opening hands I keep the more I have of cards on the higher importance group, with a caveat of multiple crop rotations not being strong.

Don't keep hands that require you to be unmolested for several turns in regards to discard/destruction.
- Have faith in the deck. I will often keep hands of 5-6 lands if there are Cloudposts in them or if the remaining 1-2 cards are strong cmc 1 spells like Brainstorm, SDT, or Crop rotation.

Keeping hands with Eldrazis in them are essentially mulligans to X-y, where X is your hand size, and y is the number of Eldrazis in your hand.
- This is not true of Primeval titans, since they are castable on turn 3 with candelabras and normal conditions, or on turn 5-6 under duress.

Don't keep hands on Show & Tell.
- Show & Tell is your plan B, not plan A. Plan A is sit around, not be pressured due to repeal/bog/karakas/Hatecards doing their jobs, and then casting your stuff. Show and Tell can be a supplement to your hand, but it should never be its primary goal and only avenue.

Don't be afraid of having Cloudposts get wastelanded early.
- I will often play Cloudpost on the blind my first turn if possible if I don't have a needle or crop rotation, since it means that they MUST wasteland it that turn or fear me drawing into more answers. Most importantly, it means they cannot develop delvers/heirarchs/vials/lackeys. Hesitating with this deck can easily cause you to lose matches you would otherwise crush.
- Keep in mind that this logic is turned on itself when on the draw, where they can play their Turn 1 board advancement, and then wasteland your tapped Cloudpost while maintaining pressure.

Keep hands entirely differently based off playing or drawing.
- One of your best cards on the play is Repeal, but it becomes one of the worst on the draw.
- Against a blind opponent Pithing needle is weak on the play, but strong on the draw. The opposite is true against a known opponent.
- SDT is amazing on the play, but weaker on the draw. Despite it being weaker on the draw, it is still one of your strongest turn 1 plays.
- Hate lands, such as Tabernacle, Bog, Karakas, are stronger on the draw after they commit. Obviously Glacial chasm is weaker on the draw due to needing two land drops.

Dangerous and Risky keeps
- Low mana hands are your most dangerous keeps. they MUST have either multiple SDT's and/or brainstorms, with a clear path to additional mana and/or shuffle effects for increasing your odds of drawing mana should you see none.
- All colorless mana source (this includes bog/karakas) hands are dangerous if you have brainstorms and repeals as your only cantrips. Despite this, Vesuva, Expedition Map, SDT, and actual colored sources as outs are an extensive list of outs, so I list this hand as not dangerous.
- All colored mana source hands are not risky at all. Crop rotations can easily convert 4 colored mana sources into a Primeval titan, or 7 mana for eye of Ugin.
- Keeping complex hands are ok. Keeping a hand of Trop, Brainstorm, Brainstorm, Crop Rotation, Crop rotation, X, X is ok if you are on the play, and riskier on the draw, but not the end of the world thalia/Chalice-withstanding. In this situation you brainstorm their eot, keeping Crop rotation up at all times for a response to wasteland, brainstorm eot, if you see nothing you crop rotate in upkeep to shuffle, draw and hope, if you see nothing brainstorm in your turn and now you've looked at 7 additional cards for a land and can still shuffle in your next upkeep should the worst happen.



Knowing your opponent is enormous for what hands to keep as well. If you are at a small tournament scout around for your nightmare matchups where you must keep perfect hands to take game 1 (high tide, elves, weird combo) or non CmC 1 hands (Anything running Chalice @ 1: MUD, Aggro Loam, Dragon Stompy, Faerie Stompy) or situational keeps often on Crop rotation (Belcher, Dredge, Reanimator, Tendrils storm).

Last but not least, confidence is paramount to this deck. Often cards the cards in the deck are highly variant in power level throughout the game, which means the contents of our hand and our random draws often have the ability to alter card values as the game progresses. Use this lack of knowledge and changing power level of cards to your advantage with strong posture and faith in the deck's composition to pull you through even extremely gloomy positions. The deck runs 4-5x the number of choices/searches than any other competitive deck out there right now and often only a small fraction of those choices are the surefire-can't-lose situations, but without knowledge of your hand and often your top 3 cards, your opponent can never know what that plan is since at some point all of the possible plans can be that surefire plan. Abuse this lack of knowledge through confidence and maintained composure.
- An example. A Candelabra may not be useful to us on turn 1 as more than counterbait, but against a deck with no removal like RUG, it is often a must-counter since it shuts off 8 of their counters and accelerates us past the realm of them being able to answer threats. A RuG player can't know what your hand is on turn 1 though when staring down a candelabra. If your hand is two trops then the Candelabra is completely dead. If your hand is two Cloudposts then he will die to that candelabra not resolving. You force the RuG player into an extremely awkward position very early just by playing an innocuous card. If that Candelabra was countered I would be mentally vigilant not to droop my shoulders or change my demeanor to indicate the power of that Candelabra relative to my remaining hand.

[blindspotxxx]

Been having success with this deck at our local Thursday Night Legacy going

4-0 and 3-1 (piloted by a friend)

Aside from being fun it's very competitive!

[Rock Lee]

Been having success with this deck at our local Thursday Night Legacy going

4-0 and 3-1 (piloted by a friend)

Aside from being fun it's very competitive!

Glad to hear!

My local meta is slowly transitioning into ALL combo, which means the few BUG/RUG players are giddy with delight. My last Tuesday weekly event was 8 combo decks out of 12 players.

[blindspotxxx]

Glad to hear!

My local meta is slowly transitioning into ALL combo, which means the few BUG/RUG players are giddy with delight. My last Tuesday weekly event was 8 combo decks out of 12 players.

What sideboard adjustments would you do if the meta swings in that favor? the 8 counter sb? 4 force of will and 4 flusterstorm? :)

[Rock Lee]

What sideboard adjustments would you do if the meta swings in that favor? the 8 counter sb? 4 force of will and 4 flusterstorm? :)

I debated changes I would make, and despite them all running combo decks from belcher to ant to hive mind to storm to high tide, 4 Fluster, 3 chalice, 2 revoker, 1 tabernacle covered all my worries.

The irony is, the deck beats combo as is, even though game 1 is horrid.

If you wanted to get a slight edge you could go to a 4th chalice? But imo it is unnecessary.

[(nameless one)]

What does your list look like blindspotxxx?

[blindspotxxx]

I debated changes I would make, and despite them all running combo decks from belcher to ant to hive mind to storm to high tide, 4 Fluster, 3 chalice, 2 revoker, 1 tabernacle covered all my worries.

The irony is, the deck beats combo as is, even though game 1 is horrid.

If you wanted to get a slight edge you could go to a 4th chalice? But imo it is unnecessary.

Are the Revokers really that good? What combo deck would you side them in? :) I'd rather the 6 counter sb you made with the trinispheres or chalices :)


What does your list look like blindspotxxx?

Exactly like Rock Lee's latest list with GSZs and the 2nd Candelabra :tongue:

[Rock Lee]

Are the Revokers really that good? What combo deck would you side them in? :) I'd rather the 6 counter sb you made with the trinispheres or chalices :)



Exactly like Rock Lee's latest list with GSZs and the 2nd Candelabra :tongue:


I personally really like Revoker because it shores up your absolute nightmare matchups of MUD & Elves, while still being effective against storm & some outlier decks. If you have no-fear against elves/mud, you can absolutely run Trinisphere or Spell Pierce or Envelop in its spot. They all perform the same concept role.

Perhaps the thing I like most about Revoker is that it rewards research and risky/bad situations for opponents, as opposed to counters that are only counters at the end of the day. If you only have 1 blue mana, three counters aren't helping you. Also if they go turn 1 Xantid Swarm/Defense Grid you have your work cut out for ya.

I prefer holistic answers from multiple angles. Also remember Venser is absolutely a counter. I almost always bring him in against anything that isn't trying to combo me out on turn 1-2.

[blindspotxxx]

I personally really like Revoker because it shores up your absolute nightmare matchups of MUD & Elves, while still being effective against storm & some outlier decks. If you have no-fear against elves/mud, you can absolutely run Trinisphere or Spell Pierce or Envelop in its spot. They all perform the same concept role.

Perhaps the thing I like most about Revoker is that it rewards research and risky/bad situations for opponents, as opposed to counters that are only counters at the end of the day. If you only have 1 blue mana, three counters aren't helping you. Also if they go turn 1 Xantid Swarm/Defense Grid you have your work cut out for ya.

I prefer holistic answers from multiple angles. Also remember Venser is absolutely a counter. I almost always bring him in against anything that isn't trying to combo me out on turn 1-2.

What do you need to shutdown for MUD and what do you take out? Although a few people play MUD they always seem to make it to the near top tables or the top tables.

Elves? We revoker what? The wirewoods and the heritage druids? Just curious :)

[Zeisse]

Hi.

Yesterday I win a 63 players tournament with 6 round of swiss plus a cut to TOP 16 (new experiment).

I play the standar list with 1 Karakas, 1 Emrakul, 2 Candelabra, 3 Expedition map and 4 Show & tell main.

Sideboard:

3 FLusterstorm (Combo - Control)
3 Chalice of the void (Storm - elves - burn - RUG? Not tested)
2 Drop of honey (Aggro - RUG)
2 Elephant grass (Aggro - RUG - Dredge)
2 Cursed totem (Elves - MUD - GW)
2 Venser
1 Tabernacle


Short report of the tournament

Round 1
JUNK (Rock) 2-0

Round 2
Geist of Saint Traft Stompy (whit hexproof creatures) 2-0

Round 3
Zombie bombardment 2-1

Round 4
Miracles UW 1-1 (Back to basics and I not found the Candelabras, round time)

Round 5
Esper blade 1-1 (Round time)

Round 6
Mono black 2-0

TOP 16
ANT 2-1 (A little luck)

TOP 8
Esper blade 2-1 (The same player in round 5)

TOP 4
Shardless BUG 2-0

FINAL
Dredge 2-0 (Recorded video)

The video of the final and the all TOP 16 will be on manainfinito.com soon

[Rock Lee]

Hi.

Yesterday I win a 63 players tournament with 6 round of swiss plus a cut to TOP 16 (new experiment).



Congrats!

I can't wait for the coverage to show up!

I am always amazed that people dont' run 4 flusterstorm, and then still beat ANT. In my opinion Drop of Honey is overkill against aggro, how was it in your games? If Back to Basics is showing itself more and more, it is a strong case for Spell pierce back in the board.

[blindspotxxx]

Hi.

Yesterday I win a 63 players tournament with 6 round of swiss plus a cut to TOP 16 (new experiment).

I play the standar list with 1 Karakas, 1 Emrakul, 2 Candelabra, 3 Expedition map and 4 Show & tell main.

Sideboard:

3 FLusterstorm (Combo - Control)
3 Chalice of the void (Storm - elves - burn - RUG? Not tested)
2 Drop of honey (Aggro - RUG)
2 Elephant grass (Aggro - RUG - Dredge)
2 Cursed totem (Elves - MUD - GW)
2 Venser
1 Tabernacle


Short report of the tournament

Round 1
JUNK (Rock) 2-0

Round 2
Geist of Saint Traft Stompy (whit hexproof creatures) 2-0

Round 3
Zombie bombardment 2-1

Round 4
Miracles UW 1-1 (Back to basics and I not found the Candelabras, round time)

Round 5
Esper blade 1-1 (Round time)

Round 6
Mono black 2-0

TOP 16
ANT 2-1 (A little luck)

TOP 8
Esper blade 2-1 (The same player in round 5)

TOP 4
Shardless BUG 2-0

FINAL
Dredge 2-0 (Recorded video)

The video of the final and the all TOP 16 will be on manainfinito.com soon

Congrats! Can't wait for your report as well :)

[Rock Lee]

What do you need to shutdown for MUD and what do you take out? Although a few people play MUD they always seem to make it to the near top tables or the top tables.

Elves? We revoker what? The wirewoods and the heritage druids? Just curious :)

Against MUD you have very little to "shut down." Chalice is a royal beating, so keeping hands that are CmC 1 dependent can ruin you. Show & tell is often your best avenue of play, but still not nearly as strong as it is against the rest of the format. If possible stopping Metalworker is good, but only possible with Revokers. You are able to out-dude them given time, but time is often something they take advantage of. Really there is very little suggestions to give against MUD besides don't get paired against it, and rely on RuG/Bug/Maverick to annihilate it.


Against elves you name Heritage Druid, then Heritage Druid, and then Heritage Druid. never too many heritage druids. Save your pithing needles for Wirewood Symbiote and then Quirion Ranger.

[moseby]

I went 3-2 with a pertty stock U/G list at a local with 25 peps.
R1: RUg 2-1, elephant grass, and glimmerposts were good all day vs rug
R2: Affinity 0-2 I was utterly crushed both games she drops a T3 Tez and ultimates him next turn, then drops another. G2 she vomits her entire hand on the table + plating on t2
R3: 2-0 Esperblade He saw no disruption in either game and was pounded
R4: 0-2 RUg G1 I mull to 5, and he wastes the crap out of me. G2 he go Delver Waste Waste, guess how that game went, I got stifled in there a couple of times also.
R5: 2-1 RUg this time I saw my needles for waste elephant grass + glimmer post allow mes to chain spaghetti monsters, I may have also snuk a SNT in there also.

Repeal was OK, I think I may try devastation tide in its place, as repel was all but useless against affinity, and does squat against geese.

[somethingdotdotdot]

I'm also beginning to think that repeal just doesn't do enough at the moment. It's okay versus rug by delaying them a turn (and perhaps making them use a brainstorm/ponder) and keep card parity, but I really hate that it costs 3U to bounce a kotr.

I tried devastation tide in repeals place in a couple of tests earlier today, but I still end up with the conclusion that it's too clunky by requiring either UU or brainstorm setup. Its also pretty terrible synergy with pithing needle. I think I'm going to test cyclonic rift in the repeal spots as soon as I grab some. You're not able to do quirky candle tricks or save your needle wih it, but I feel like those tend to be corner cases for what repeal does in the deck anyways. On the flip side, you get a 1U bouncer that an become a 1-sided evacuation. It also has synergy with elephant grass because the grass usually lets you develop your mana enough to overload the rift versus aggro decks.

[Rock Lee]

I'm also beginning to think that repeal just doesn't do enough at the moment. It's okay versus rug by delaying them a turn (and perhaps making them use a brainstorm/ponder) and keep card parity, but I really hate that it costs 3U to bounce a kotr.

I tried devastation tide in repeals place in a couple of tests earlier today, but I still end up with the conclusion that it's too clunky by requiring either UU or brainstorm setup. Its also pretty terrible synergy with pithing needle. I think I'm going to test cyclonic rift in the repeal spots as soon as I grab some. You're not able to do quirky candle tricks or save your needle wih it, but I feel like those tend to be corner cases for what repeal does in the deck anyways. On the flip side, you get a 1U bouncer that an become a 1-sided evacuation. It also has synergy with elephant grass because the grass usually lets you develop your mana enough to overload the rift versus aggro decks.

Sounds like you just should run All is Dust, which is fine, just such a larger liability against Rug.

[somethingdotdotdot]

Well the thing with Cyclonic Rift is that it's basically live at every stage of the game. Even versus Rug/Bug tempo, you can cast it at 1U which is only 1 mana more than repeal (but card disadvantage). However, late game versus decks with 2-3 creatures, it basically becomes a less powerful All is Dust (it does have some advantages in that it doesn't kill your own titans and bounces opposing ensnaring bridges) and stalls 1-2 turns rather than the 4-5. Its just a lot more versatile than either All is Dust or Devastation Tide.

[Rock Lee]

Well the thing with Cyclonic Rift is that it's basically live at every stage of the game. Even versus Rug/Bug tempo, you can cast it at 1U which is only 1 mana more than repeal (but card disadvantage). However, late game versus decks with 2-3 creatures, it basically becomes a less powerful All is Dust (it does have some advantages in that it doesn't kill your own titans and bounces opposing ensnaring bridges) and stalls 1-2 turns rather than the 4-5. Its just a lot more versatile than either All is Dust or Devastation Tide.

In my RTR testing, there were no realistic situations where Cyclonic Rift had more utility than Devastation Tide. If you're looking for permanent removal, All is Dust is simply better for 7 mana, sometimes 5. Having no applications to bounce Top or Candelabras is hugely inhibitory, since repeal on SDT is your draw engine and on Candelabra is your best mana accelerant.

[somethingdotdotdot]

From my testing so far, the times when cyclonic rift is better than tide is when its in the starting hand or when you draw it while the board is empty. A tide stuck in hand w/o brainstorm is basically -1 card from the starting hand, while a cyclonic rift can still turn 2/3 bounce a delver. I will concede that once you have enough mana, the tide tends to be better because it is 2 less mana (but the UU is what kills it for me) and All is Dust's permanence is a lot more satisfying.

If Team America takes off more, cyclonic rift bouncing a tombstalker is really good. It'll buy at least 2-3 turns for 1U while repeal would need 8U.

[Rock Lee]

From my testing so far, the times when cyclonic rift is better than tide is when its in the starting hand or when you draw it while the board is empty. A tide stuck in hand w/o brainstorm is basically -1 card from the starting hand, while a cyclonic rift can still turn 2/3 bounce a delver. I will concede that once you have enough mana, the tide tends to be better because it is 2 less mana (but the UU is what kills it for me) and All is Dust's permanence is a lot more satisfying.

If Team America takes off more, cyclonic rift bouncing a tombstalker is really good. It'll buy at least 2-3 turns for 1U while repeal would need 8U.

If Team America starts becoming prominent over BuG Control, then All is Dust would just replace repeal. The ONLY logic that cyclonic rift trumps the other better removal spells is if its instant-ness is relevant. Right now, that isn't the case.

[Rock Lee]

More wins with the deck. Tuesday weekly event net'd me a Wasteland, 3 modified Eldrazi's, and an unanticipated ego stroke.

My 4th round opponent offered an ID to me, with me being the only undefeated in the event. He offered it because he knew he couldn't beat my deck, and I was still guaranteed first and he was 3rd, or 2nd if the other round drew. I was flattered, and of course agreed.

[Rock Lee]

webpage dying, accidental repost and can't delete. fail!

[blindspotxxx]

I hope we get the same success this coming November 10 with another major tournament. Price is a set of Jace, the Mind Sculptor

[Rock Lee]

I hope we get the same success this coming November 10 with another major tournament. Price is a set of Jace, the Mind Sculptor

A few months ago I'd scoff at a playset of Jaces, but now they're over 100$ apiece! I love Modern speculation! =D

[Keupon]

Hi Everybody i m knew here. I come from Paris so first of all, apologize for my english.

I just came to talk about this deck that i play in France since 6 month. This deck is fun competitive and i ve test'd a lot lot of version.
Looking for a good removal i ve tested all is dust and didn t like him, it's too hard to cast against denial decks. Devastation tide is good but sometimes not enough against a goblin warchief so i splashed white to add some terminus. I changed a bit my mana base with a tundra, 2 savannah one more fetch and 2 mox diamond. I m pretty happy about that idea.

I played 3 days ago at GP Lyon legacy side event.
I started 4-0 after burning 2 rock an UW miracle and a dredge deck
Then i lost against MUD (hard match up)
Draw against BUG aggro ( a missplay glimmer/cloudpost on titan)
Then i lost against BUG control ( loam waste jace liana deed......)
4-2-1 drop then back home

[Rock Lee]

Hi Everybody i m knew here. I come from Paris so first of all, apologize for my english.

I just came to talk about this deck that i play in France since 6 month. This deck is fun competitive and i ve test'd a lot lot of version.
Looking for a good removal i ve tested all is dust and didn t like him, it's too hard to cast against denial decks. Devastation tide is good but sometimes not enough against a goblin warchief so i splashed white to add some terminus. I changed a bit my mana base with a tundra, 2 savannah one more fetch and 2 mox diamond. I m pretty happy about that idea.

I played 3 days ago at GP Lyon legacy side event.
I started 4-0 after burning 2 rock an UW miracle and a dredge deck
Then i lost against MUD (hard match up)
Draw against BUG aggro ( a missplay glimmer/cloudpost on titan)
Then i lost against BUG control ( loam waste jace liana deed......)
4-2-1 drop then back home

You dislike Repeal for removal? I have found it to be extremely good at all stages of the game, which is the major lacking in all other removal spells.

Also can you supply a deck list? Perhaps I can give suggestions for the white-splash, which I have done extensive testing with.

If you can't express your response in English, I speak non-fluent French, but enough to answer your questions with some infrequent dictionary usage.

[Davek]

Hi all,

as our french friend above, i'm really new to this forum (even if i've read it for months). I've been a gobbos player for such a long time, but since i discovered this deck I grew more and more interested in it, it sounds really unconventional but still highly competitive. Also, I'd like to play a deck that's all but common to see in tournaments (I'm from Italy and here candelabras are rare to be found). Lee, I've tested what i think it's your latest build (3x repeal, 3x show'n tell, green sun zenith) and found it really good against rising decks like junk, nic-fit and basically every non-blue deck (with the exception of mud) but i'm having trouble in facing correctly decks like RUG tempo or BUG tempo. Stifle always gets me with my pants down (fetches, maps, titan triggers) and i often find myself hiding behind chasm while hoping to draw the right card, that almost always get FoWed. Could you please give me some tips about how i should play these games? Also, could you please tell us what are your sb plans against typical format decks?
Thanks in advance! ( sorry if my english isn't perfect, i'm a bit rusted :-) )

[Rock Lee]

... i'm having trouble in facing correctly decks like RUG tempo or BUG tempo. Stifle always gets me with my pants down (fetches, maps, titan triggers) and i often find myself hiding behind chasm while hoping to draw the right card, that almost always get FoWed. Could you please give me some tips about how i should play these games? Also, could you please tell us what are your sb plans against typical format decks?
Thanks in advance! ( sorry if my english isn't perfect, i'm a bit rusted :-) )

I will tell you you a secret of sorts that applies to Stifle in general, but specifically to the RUG/BuG matchup. When my opponents are playing Stifle, the best possible play, is to do nothing. Simply hold back your stifle targets and make them lose opportunity cost by landing threats later, not being able to EOT brainstorm, whatever the mana sacrifice may be. Turbo Eldrazi wins if it has time, so the way to beat decks that are based around using their mana every turn is to not allow them to use their mana every turn, and thus gain time from it.

I know it might seem small and simple, but my teammate Scott Hughes had the same concern specifically about Stifle, and I told him this. In the same event I told him about this philosophy he employed it against Rug both in the swiss and in the top 8 and crushed it. RuG can't deal with having to hold back. The deck relies on spending its mana every turn and garnering exactly enough advantage to win from it.

Bruce Lee had it right with his discipline Jeet Kune Do, Way of the intercepting fist. By being Defensive you enable yourself to control the movement and tempo of a fight.

[SBGpinas]

Upcoming major event on our end and I'm planning to bring a list identical to yours (save for the SB... we don't have enough Flusterstorms or Venser, so we're going with a 3/3 Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce split). Wish me luck!

A few things though... any tips against the Mono-Black Pox/Aggro Matchup? From the few games I've played against it, it seems it's well-equipped to give Turbo Eldrazzi a bad day - Land-disruption and Hand-disruption right up the wazoo, plus it becomes a down-hill battle when he's got you down to top-deck mode and he has an active Liliana dismantling your hand, or destroying your board presence...

What about burn? From my testing it seems like a coin-toss for the most part, even with the SB... Any pointers here?

[Rock Lee]

Upcoming major event on our end and I'm planning to bring a list identical to yours (save for the SB... we don't have enough Flusterstorms or Venser, so we're going with a 3/3 Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce split). Wish me luck!

A few things though... any tips against the Mono-Black Pox/Aggro Matchup? From the few games I've played against it, it seems it's well-equipped to give Turbo Eldrazzi a bad day - Land-disruption and Hand-disruption right up the wazoo, plus it becomes a down-hill battle when he's got you down to top-deck mode and he has an active Liliana dismantling your hand, or destroying your board presence...

What about burn? From my testing it seems like a coin-toss for the most part, even with the SB... Any pointers here?

Pox is one of your easiest matchups. they get completely shut down by needle. side out things like show & tell, which are bad against hymn and discard. You just out-advantage them, and they have no pressure. The local venues I play at often have 2-3 pox decks in a ~30 man environment, and I haven't lost a game to them in months. Elephant grass also laughs at them hard, but I probably would consider it overkill. side in spell pierce x3 for x3 show & tell and call it a day.

Your best card against decks that try to go 1-for-1 against you on card advantage is Sensei's Divining Top. The card is simply beast considering how many shuffle effects you run. Play off your top 3, not your hand.

I recently added Spellskite to the Side against burn, but keep crop rotate for Glacial chasm in response to price of progress, and prioritize glimmerposts first. NEVER assume they can't kill you when you get primeval titan, always be safe and get chasm early with primeval titan searches. Even when attacking with primeval titans I suggest chasms for safety. If there is lots of burn in your area, you can run 2x Glacial Chasm, 1 main 1 side. This lets you tutor it early and not have to sustain it while holding back a crop for your 2nd one.

[blindspotxxx]

Upcoming major event on our end and I'm planning to bring a list identical to yours (save for the SB... we don't have enough Flusterstorms or Venser, so we're going with a 3/3 Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce split). Wish me luck!

A few things though... any tips against the Mono-Black Pox/Aggro Matchup? From the few games I've played against it, it seems it's well-equipped to give Turbo Eldrazzi a bad day - Land-disruption and Hand-disruption right up the wazoo, plus it becomes a down-hill battle when he's got you down to top-deck mode and he has an active Liliana dismantling your hand, or destroying your board presence...

What about burn? From my testing it seems like a coin-toss for the most part, even with the SB... Any pointers here?

I also ordered Vensers lol and the 4th Flusterstorm will be given to you by Dominic. You also have spare Trinispheres and Revokers lol Good Luck!

I also lost to MBA today, sided like a Pox matchup but then in then on the other hand you just need Elephant Grass against that deck. Went to draw though with that deck, didn't pithing needle Liliana and I named Wasteland then Ratchet Bomb. He was able to Ultimate my Elephant Grass out. Also after a lot of shuffling and Top activation no kill cons come out so I lost game 2 resulting in a draw lol Pithing Needle on Ugin is a pain

[Rock Lee]

I also ordered Vensers lol and the 4th Flusterstorm will be given to you by Dominic. You also have spare Trinispheres and Revokers lol Good Luck!

I also lost to MBA today, sided like a Pox matchup but then in the you just need Elephant Grass against that deck. Went to draw though with that deck, didn't pithing needle Liliana and I named Wasteland then Ratchet Bomb. He was able to Ultimate my Elephant Grass out. Also after a lot of shuffling and Top activation no kill cons come out so I lost game 2 resulting in a draw lol Pithing Needle on Ugin is a pain

I prefer venser over Elephant Grass in the pox matchup for exactly that reason. Bouncing Liliana in resp to her 1+ ability when they have no hand will win a game handily. That and they can't deal with karakas abuse.

It is important to know when the deck transitions from its normal plan. Pox is one of those times where simple advantage-plays will win you the game. Going all-in is significantly riskier and unnecessary. Waiting a turn to keep a SDT in play is almost always the better play. Just playing lands are often stronger plays than casting lots of spells. You move towards mana advancement not necessarily locus advancement. That type of thing.

[thra1l]

So how playable is this deck without Candelabras?

[Rock Lee]

So how playable is this deck without Candelabras?

not

[blindspotxxx]

I prefer venser over Elephant Grass in the pox matchup for exactly that reason. Bouncing Liliana in resp to her 1+ ability when they have no hand will win a game handily. That and they can't deal with karakas abuse.

It is important to know when the deck transitions from its normal plan. Pox is one of those times where simple advantage-plays will win you the game. Going all-in is significantly riskier and unnecessary. Waiting a turn to keep a SDT in play is almost always the better play. Just playing lands are often stronger plays than casting lots of spells. You move towards mana advancement not necessarily locus advancement. That type of thing.

I sided in the spell pierces but failed to counter the Phyrexian Arena and the Liliana. Arena was turn 2 or 1 I guess with Dark ritual and I played turn 1 top. Didn't have a blue source early lol but had a nice ramp. He was able to pay the Spell Pierce I applied to Liliana. Pithing Needle on Liliana would have won me :)

[thra1l]

not

Surely a card that was ran for quite a while as a one-of with no means to search for it isn't essential to the deck. It may not be optimal, but I think a list without it would viable. I would just rather not drop the cash on a Candelabra right now.

[Rock Lee]

It may not be optimal, but I think a list without it would viable.

Read this sentence 10 times. I am only interested in optimal deck construction.

If you want to make a casual deck, this is not the forum or thread for you. I have explained multiple times why my candelabra choices in the past have been such, when 0 would be a viable number, why I chose 1 for a long time, and what the future of it would be. Using the search function is not hard, and a lack of its use only shows laziness or ignorance as I mention on the first page where to search and that I will not be repeating explanations especially those not thought out or tested.

[r3dd09]

Pretty stoked to build this deck. Wish I had the cards for this saturday, it'd blow my meta out of the water.

[thra1l]

Read this sentence 10 times. I am only interested in optimal deck construction.

If you want to make a casual deck, this is not the forum or thread for you. I have explained multiple times why my candelabra choices in the past have been such, when 0 would be a viable number, why I chose 1 for a long time, and what the future of it would be. Using the search function is not hard, and a lack of its use only shows laziness or ignorance as I mention on the first page where to search and that I will not be repeating explanations especially those not thought out or tested.

And a reply like that only shows immaturity; I was not being rude to you, don't be rude to me. I agree that I should have searched the older forum first, my apologies, but it would've been just as easy for you to direct me to it politely rather than rudely demeaning me and calling me a casual player.

[SBGpinas]

And a reply like that only shows immaturity; I was not being rude to you, don't be rude to me. I agree that I should have searched the older forum first, my apologies, but it would've been just as easy for you to direct me to it politely rather than rudely demeaning me and calling me a casual player.

Ok everybody take a chill pill before this gets out of hand...

Back to the topic at hand though, having Candelabra opens up a lot of plays for the deck. Admittedly you will win games without ever drawing that card, but having it together with Repeal is just sick. With Candelabra, Turn 4 Eldrazi plays, and hard-casting Primeval Titan with only 1 green mana source becomes possible, even common, so based on playtesting experience, I would really suggest not skimping out on those.

[Darkenslight]

And a reply like that only shows immaturity; I was not being rude to you, don't be rude to me. I agree that I should have searched the older forum first, my apologies, but it would've been just as easy for you to direct me to it politely rather than rudely demeaning me and calling me a casual player.

Well, to be frank, a list without any Candelabra is only for a very specific metagame of which it is unlikely in the least. This is the Established Deck forum. Moreover:


I was asked this more and more as the day went by. I own a playset, and some of the time a playset is the number you want, some of the times 3, 2, and 1 are the right amount. I've played the deck with zero and it always felt like I wanted some number of them.

In my matches that day, when I had it I never said "this candelabra is holding me down," which I have in the past when running multiples. And in my Goblins matchup I drew the candelabra when I wanted it, which was when I had ~1/3 of my starting deck left, which statistically speaking is where you should be with running only 1.

Long answer: ^

Short answer: 1, for now.

That's from the very last page of the Development thread. And that was from the SCG Providence list, where Rock split the Finals.

[noiseweasel]

I've become a big fan of this deck. However, being the scrubbity-scrub-scrub I am, I was wondering about your latest iteration of it.
Specifically, I was curious as to the inclusion of the singleton GSZ. I realize that it functions as Titan #4 but what brought about the change?

[Rock Lee]

I've become a big fan of this deck. However, being the scrubbity-scrub-scrub I am, I was wondering about your latest iteration of it.
Specifically, I was curious as to the inclusion of the singleton GSZ. I realize that it functions as Titan #4 but what brought about the change?

Short answer. I copied my teammate.

Long answer. I tried a build with multiple GSZ's in it, a green tutor kit, dryad arbor. It did ok, but ultimately I found that it forced you into a static line of play that deviates from the real strength of the deck, its adaptability. I tweaked the number of GSZ's from 2-4 for awhile, and ultimately gave up on the build. My teammate Scott Hughes stuck with it, and did some testing and tuning that I never did, which involved dropping all the non-primeval titan targets, and going down to 3, then 2, then 1 GSZ's. His success with the deck in that iteration brought me back to testing it, and it was extremely solid. It also does allow for possible sideboard options, but for the most part it is just there for Titan #5.

[noiseweasel]

That's about what I figured. I'm still learning the deck's intricacies. This thing is way trickier than it looks to pilot. R/G tron in modern seems similar, which is usually what I play in that format, so that's how I ended up here. But this thing has some hidden depths to it. When are you boarding in the Spellskite?

Also: Love the pink card sleeves you were using in the tourney videos. I personally use Pokemon sleeves. Messing with people's heads is half the fun of playing a control deck.

[Rock Lee]

That's about what I figured. I'm still learning the deck's intricacies. This thing is way trickier than it looks to pilot. R/G tron in modern seems similar, which is usually what I play in that format, so that's how I ended up here. But this thing has some hidden depths to it. When are you boarding in the Spellskite?

Also: Love the pink card sleeves you were using in the tourney videos. I personally use Pokemon sleeves. Messing with people's heads is half the fun of playing a control deck.

Spellskite is the newest addition to the sideboard, so I'm not 100% on what it does and doesn't come in against. Burn is the most obvious choice, but also I bring it in against anything that tries to clock you, especially with 3-1/X's, when blocks matter, and most importantly, when I need my needles, so against all artifact hate, vindicate, or when randomly redirecting an effect that can save my life, such as against Belcher.

Keep in mind though, I often will side out my needles in matchups where the ONLY dangerous target to name is wasteland, and they will be keeping on weaker hands that happen to have wasteland. And if they re-side game 3 I will often bring them back in if they had artifact hate game 2. Mindscrew activate.

[noiseweasel]

Yeah I was originally a bit iffy about maindecking needles but it really does open the door wide for head games having them in there game one.
My utter favorite to date is a game two Meddling Mage on needle. I almost died trying not to laugh.

[Rock Lee]

Yeah I was originally a bit iffy about maindecking needles but it really does open the door wide for head games having them in there game one.
My utter favorite to date is a game two Meddling Mage on needle. I almost died trying not to laugh.

Scott Hughes once won a match entirely on naming Lotus Petal on Pithing needle and winning because of it. My mind was blown.

[Julian23]

I've seen Pithing Needle on Mountain win games. However the best Needle I faced was my MODO opponent naming Force of Will before casting Double Dark Ritual into Ad Nauseam. When I Forced it, he was like: "Well, worth a try." :laugh:

[r3dd09]

I've seen Pithing Needle on Mountain win games. However the best Needle I faced was my MODO opponent naming Force of Will before casting Double Dark Ritual into Ad Nauseam. When I Forced it, he was like: "Well, worth a try." :laugh:

Haha. Awesome. So I'm starting to pick up cards for this deck, basically need a mint candelabra and I got it mostly pimped.

[Rock Lee]

Haha. Awesome. So I'm starting to pick up cards for this deck, basically need a mint candelabra and I got it mostly pimped.

Mint candelabras are spendy as hell now. over 400 USD O.o

[r3dd09]

Mint candelabras are spendy as hell now. over 400 USD O.o

we'll go NM then. ha I also forgot about the tabernacle >.> I might just wait and get that one in Denver in january * who all is attending?

Pimp wise, I'm just ordering none foil german stuff for right now until I know This is a deck that I want to commit on. Luckily I got german foil eldrazis ;)

[Rock Lee]

we'll go NM then. ha I also forgot about the tabernacle >.> I might just wait and get that one in Denver in january * who all is attending?

I should be at Denver, 95% sure.

[r3dd09]

I should be at Denver, 95% sure.

Awesome, I plan on playing this deck. I don't know if I could play 2 days of DDFT * if everything does as planned*. Mental breakdown waiting to happen.

I'll proxy what I'm missing and practice and get ready for the GPT in 2 weeks. Should be rather easy as no one really plays legacy in Utah, and the people that do, only a few are going to the GP.

[Davek]

Yesterday i was having a fun, relaxed game with a friend of mine that was piloting my usual gobbos deck. I felt quite confident about this match but as i said it was nothing really serious. Anyway, i want to underline a situation that happened to me during the game. We were about to start our G2, sb in. I was on the draw and this was my opening hand: 2x misty rainforest, cloudpost, brainstorm, crop rotation, show and tell, elephant grass. "A good hand" i thought. Well, it turned out that it wasn't at all.
My friend landed a mountain and played a little pesky artifact we are running too (aka Pithing needle) naming... MISTY RAINFOREST! My shoulders shrinked, suddenly my hand was worse than ever. 4 turns later i died from a bloodthirsted angry mob of little green men. My friend then showed me his hand, telling me he had 2 pithing needle in his starting hand and that he was keeping the second for any utility artifact i could have landed. Even if i thought it was an odd move, it was definitely the right one.
I know, it was a case that's more unique than rare, but this made me thought: why should i run a whole set of misty rainforests since i have no basic forest to get with them? I switched from 4 rainforests to 1 x every blue fetch. I know that in this way our smartest opponents could understand that we are not running green basics, but i think they should be mostly worried about the huge amount of mana this deck can generate with locuses and try to deal with it. Until new changes to the flexible slots of the deck, i think i'll keep all 4 blue fetches as 1x.

[Rock Lee]

Yesterday i was having a fun, relaxed game with a friend of mine that was piloting my usual gobbos deck. I felt quite confident about this match but as i said it was nothing really serious. Anyway, i want to underline a situation that happened to me during the game. We were about to start our G2, sb in. I was on the draw and this was my opening hand: 2x misty rainforest, cloudpost, brainstorm, crop rotation, show and tell, elephant grass. "A good hand" i thought. Well, it turned out that it wasn't at all.
My friend landed a mountain and played a little pesky artifact we are running too (aka Pithing needle) naming... MISTY RAINFOREST! My shoulders shrinked, suddenly my hand was worse than ever. 4 turns later i died from a bloodthirsted angry mob of little green men. My friend then showed me his hand, telling me he had 2 pithing needle in his starting hand and that he was keeping the second for any utility artifact i could have landed. Even if i thought it was an odd move, it was definitely the right one.
I know, it was a case that's more unique than rare, but this made me thought: why should i run a whole set of misty rainforests since i have no basic forest to get with them? I switched from 4 rainforests to 1 x every blue fetch. I know that in this way our smartest opponents could understand that we are not running green basics, but i think they should be mostly worried about the huge amount of mana this deck can generate with locuses and try to deal with it. Until new changes to the flexible slots of the deck, i think i'll keep all 4 blue fetches as 1x.

No reason not to. I have just done that out of habit since I go in and out of running a basic forest. The original logic was so I could name other fetches, but the vulnerability seems too strong. That being said, I've never had it happen to me. There's just so many good things to name in the deck over it.

[Davek]

Rock, could you please give me some tips against Hive Mind? I had just few occasions to test against it, but i feel that g1 is just terrible, while post sb things could go slightly better (the problem is dealing with an hardcasted Hive Mind..)
Thanks

[Rock Lee]

Rock, could you please give me some tips against Hive Mind? I had just few occasions to test against it, but i feel that g1 is just terrible, while post sb things could go slightly better (the problem is dealing with an hardcasted Hive Mind..)
Thanks

The best play against Hive mind involves Show & Tell on either side, Primeval Titan and then paying for pacts via Vesuva'd Volcs. They can't Show in Emrakul, but make sure you don't walk into show'ing in your own Titan and they just put in a quasi-hasted Emrakul. Candelabras are huge in this match as they enable full payment of pacts. Don't forget that you can respond to the lose-the-game triggers by fixing your mana with crop rotations.

[Raystar]

Hey guys, I topped 4 a tournament yesterday with the following list:


4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Island
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas

4 Expedition Map
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pithing Needle

1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Primeval Titan

4 Crop Rotation
4 Brainstorm
4 Repeal
3 Show and Tell
1 Green Sun's Zenith


Sideboard:

3 Elephant Grass
4 Flusterstorm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Phyrexian Revoker


It was a small tournament with around 30 participants, all good players (legacy veterans) and with a meta full of Tempo/Mid-Range/S&T decks.

I had to make some adjustments to the last list from Rock Lee given the very significant presence of tempo decks in my meta, hence I ran 4 Repeal to try and gain back tempo.

I don't have my notes with me but here you go with a quick report:

T1: D&T with Aven Mindcensor

I loose G1 to too many creatures and a mindcensor that I didn't expect main deck preventing me to get the vesuva that would have saved my life. G2 Tabernacle+Elephant grass together with Emrakul sealed the deal. G3 was a needle fest and even if he had Mindcensor out I managed to get Tabernacle and elephant grass going again ftw.

1-0-0

T2: Tempo UGB with Decay and mongoose/delver/goyf

I win G1 with needle on Wasteland and Glacial Chasm copy galore, repeal also helped against turned delvers reducing clock immensely. G2 he was too fast for me and I couldn't stop the bleeding. G3 he made a terrible mistake by not countering my Crop Rotation EoT with FoW. I grabbed Eye of Ugin that picked Emrakul and proceeded to land the Karakas I had in hand to go infinite.

2-0-0

T3: Maverick GWU with Jace/Geist and no counters

I quickly win G1 on S&T for Emrakul. On G2 he sees 3 Wasteland and a Krosan Grip, it didn't last long :smile:. G3 is a great game (one of those that makes you want to continue to play MtG forever) my life swings from 2 to above 20 three times and I finally go infinite and close the game. At a certain point I had needle on Wasteland, Jace and Qasali...

3-0-0

I ID the following two games to get in Top 8

3-0-2

Quarterfinal: A friend with GUW Waterfalls (Shardless Agents, Stoneforge Mystics and Thopter/Sword)

G1 the deck does what it does and after stalling him with Glacial Chasm and landing Titan I go infinite (again :cool: ). G2 he applies a lot of pressure, gets a Grip for my only needle and proceeds to waste my butt-saving Chasm...not a nice feeling :tongue: G3 I'm in the game very soon and after a Titan lands I roll again.

Semifinal: The same Maverick deck I met in T3

Not much to say here...I was probably low on sugar (that coupled with the fact that I'm becoming too old to play games was probably a killer :wink: ) but I was never in the game both G1 and G2. Well I also had to mull to 5 G1 and 6 G2 and didn't help :D G2 he managed to waste one of my Cloudposts and proceeded to use Surgical Extraction on it, the game didn't last long afterward...

So a good performance for the deck, it ran smoothly all day (except the semis :laugh: ) and was able to get wins out of the blue even when under critical pressure. The more I play the deck, the more I discover interactions and interesting lines of play, it's a lot of fun and extremely powerful.

If I bring the deck out at the next tournament (I generally change deck to offer a moving target) I will probably redo the sideboard to focus less on the storm match-up and raise the number of needle effects and artifact protection (Spellskite seems very good for that, thx for the suggestion).

[Rock Lee]

Hey guys, I topped 4 a tournament yesterday with the following list:

I will probably redo the sideboard to focus less on the storm match-up and raise the number of needle effects and artifact protection (Spellskite seems very good for that, thx for the suggestion).

Congrats on your top 4 showing!

I put in the spellskite for exactly the tempo/protection reasons you're mentioning. It buys you time in so many ways after they've just taken out most of their creature hate.

I agree on the hypoglycemia as well. Most decks can afford to have a haggard and beat player pilot their decks to victory just from muscle memory and extensive testing when they are reaching the bottom of the barrel. Not this deck though. Too much thinking is required. I strongly suggest candy and soluble fiber!

[r3dd09]

I'm buying some of the expensive cards hopefully tonight. Are we still running 1 candelabra or are we bumping it to two?

[Davek]

Have a look at the updated list on the first page of this thread, they're 2 atm

[r3dd09]

Saw that, looks like I need to pick up a 2nd now. shouldn't be hard though. I actually liked the 2nd when I was playing, but not as much when I had both in opening hand unless it was a turn 3 dump hand.

[noiseweasel]

Those turn three dump hands make this deck so much fun. All the joy of a combo win, without the slimy feeling.
Question for you fine folks: Combo Elves and Reanimator are rampant in my meta. Like epidemic level. The event I was at earlier in the month has a total of 34 players, and 14 of them were either Combo Elves or Reanimator. I could use some suggestions on shoring up my game in these match-ups, either in strategy or sideboard choices. I'm currently running the following:

4 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [B] Tropical Island
1 [ZEN] Island (2)
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [FNM] Cloudpost

1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 [M12] Primeval Titan

4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [US] Show and Tell
3 [GP] Repeal
1 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith

SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 2 [VI] Elephant Grass
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 1 [NPH] Spellskite

The rest of my meta is mostly aggro(goblins die so hard to this deck), not much storm, almost zero other combo decks, with a core of dedicated RUG. I dont worry too much about RUG.
Thanks guys.

[Rock Lee]

Those turn three dump hands make this deck so much fun. All the joy of a combo win, without the slimy feeling.
Question for you fine folks: Combo Elves and Reanimator are rampant in my meta. Like epidemic level. The event I was at earlier in the month has a total of 34 players, and 14 of them were either Combo Elves or Reanimator. I could use some suggestions on shoring up my game in these match-ups, either in strategy or sideboard choices. I'm currently running the following:

4 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [B] Tropical Island
1 [ZEN] Island (2)
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [FNM] Cloudpost

1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 [M12] Primeval Titan

4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [US] Show and Tell
3 [GP] Repeal
1 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith

SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 2 [VI] Elephant Grass
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 1 [NPH] Spellskite

The rest of my meta is mostly aggro(goblins die so hard to this deck), not much storm, almost zero other combo decks, with a core of dedicated RUG. I dont worry too much about RUG.
Thanks guys.

Easy fix, if this truly is your meta, and you don't have to worry about heavy-tempo oriented decks, then just swap pithing needles for cursed totems. You can also swap pithing needle for flusterstorms.

[lavafrogg]

I am just full of ideas today, has anyone tried a GB version and played a rockish plan with deeds/decays. You could use coffers/tomb to accelerate mana and you would have black for disruption options.

[Raystar]

I am just full of ideas today, has anyone tried a GB version and played a rockish plan with deeds/decays. You could use coffers/tomb to accelerate mana and you would have black for disruption options.

That would be called "Damn Awesome Deck", there is a primer and a discussion on it in the developmental section that you can take a look at.

[death]

how about a MUD version: 7-8 Sol lands, Kuldotha Forgemaster + Blightsteel Colossus

also,

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=8815&type=card

we can call it Turbo MUDrazi.. anyone?

[Rock Lee]

how about a MUD version: 7-8 Sol lands, Kuldotha Forgemaster + Blightsteel Colossus

also,

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=8815&type=card

we can call it Turbo MUDrazi.. anyone?

The deck already exists and did "ok" at a SCG. it was basically MUD with a Locus manabase. I've tested it extensively and concluded that it is not as explosive as normal MUD, has more longevity, and still loses too often.

About GB cabal coffers the prior poster mentioned already.

My most interesting newer testing has been a RUG version of Eldrazi that ran Bonfire of the Damnedx3. It was hilarious and made the elves matchup laughably easy. Ultimately it made the deck walk into wasteland even harder though, so it required a specific meta.

[Rock Lee]

updated the list to reflect my decisions about the Junk/Abrupt Decay & Sea Stompy meta that is rising up.

I piloted it to 1st at Danvers, MA today, so it works. Still messing with the sideboard to acommodate it.

[noiseweasel]

updated the list to reflect my decisions about the Junk/Abrupt Decay & Sea Stompy meta that is rising up.

I piloted it to 1st at Danvers, MA today, so it works. Still messing with the sideboard to acommodate it.

Tourney report plz. I hope there are carrots.

[Rock Lee]

Tourney report plz. I hope there are carrots.

It would be a pretty pathetic tournament report, only 6 people showed for a 4x Tundra event. So weird.

[noiseweasel]

So, sure enough, Cursed totem fixed just about everything. I ended up cutting the GSZ, a brainstorm and
an expedition map for a extra repeal and a pair of All is Dust. I swapped out the maindeck pithing needles for cursed totems, per your advice. And blammo-kapow. Elves now roll over and whimper.
I'm really starting to see what you mean when you say this deck requires more choices per turn than most. But man, is it ever satisfying to sit behind an Elephant grass in game two and snicker.
*Edit*
After reviewing your latest decklist it seems I was mirroring you. Lol.

[Rock Lee]

So, sure enough, Cursed totem fixed just about everything. I ended up cutting the GSZ, a brainstorm and
an expedition map for a extra repeal and a pair of All is Dust. I swapped out the maindeck pithing needles for cursed totems, per your advice. And blammo-kapow. Elves now roll over and whimper.
I'm really starting to see what you mean when you say this deck requires more choices per turn than most. But man, is it ever satisfying to sit behind an Elephant grass in game two and snicker.

Glad to hear the changes worked out for ya!

I often wonder why others don't play the deck, and the only conclusion I can come to is that Legacy players aren't used to having to think 3, 4, 5 turns ahead. They can do combat math, they can see what the correct order of spells are for this turn, but I've concluded that the vast majority of them just crumple when they have to make game-changing choices on simple decisions like turn 1 land drop, or having the ability to look at 20+ cards off of 3 lands.

I recently had a conversation with some budding Legacy players about what their best deck choices would be and the conversation turned towards what is the "hardest" deck in Legacy to play. When people were debating between Storm combo and U/W Miracles I knew that Legacy simply didn't understand the numbers of permutations that were necessary to win a normal game of magic with this deck, never mind what a complex stack, competent opponent, and facing against an unknown deck does to that number of possibilities. I commend everyone in this thread who pilot this deck successfully, you are the rare players out there.

And yes, I love Elephant Grass.

[Arianrhod]

Glad to hear the changes worked out for ya!

I often wonder why others don't play the deck, and the only conclusion I can come to is that Legacy players aren't used to having to think 3, 4, 5 turns ahead. They can do combat math, they can see what the correct order of spells are for this turn, but I've concluded that the vast majority of them just crumple when they have to make game-changing choices on simple decisions like turn 1 land drop, or having the ability to look at 20+ cards off of 3 lands.

I recently had a conversation with some budding Legacy players about what their best deck choices would be and the conversation turned towards what is the "hardest" deck in Legacy to play. When people were debating between Storm combo and U/W Miracles I knew that Legacy simply didn't understand the numbers of permutations that were necessary to win a normal game of magic with this deck, never mind what a complex stack, competent opponent, and facing against an unknown deck does to that number of possibilities. I commend everyone in this thread who pilot this deck successfully, you are the rare players out there.

And yes, I love Elephant Grass.

Some of it is being willing to put the time into learning a deck, too. Nic Fit suffers the same problems in that regard -- there's a few competent players here and there (most of them seem to congregate around me, for some reason....I guess because they see me make it work on a regular basis), but largely, people don't touch it.

I'm slowly working on assembling the pieces for this deck now, as well, so hopefully I can start terrorizing locals with it soon enough. #RampDecksinLegacy4Life.

[somethingdotdotdot]

I just played a local tournament with this deck with a fairly stock list

4x Glimmerpost
4x Cloudpost
4x Vesuva
4x Tropical Island
4x Flooded Strand (mostly to look like miracles when i go strand->island->top)
1x Island
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Karakas
1x Eye of Ugin

4x Primeval Titan
1x Ulamog
1x Kozilek
1x Emrakul

4x Expedition Map
4x Crop Rotation
3x Pithing Needle
2x Candelabra of Tawnos
3x Show and Tell
3x Cyclonic Rift
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Brainstorm
1x GSZ

SB:
4x Flusterstorm
3x Chalice of the Void
2x Venser, Shaper Savant
3x Elephant Grass
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2x Spellskite

I went 3-1-1 and just missed top 8 due to terrible breakers. My loss and draw were both to Rug. I have to say that the delver, delver, 2x waste, 2x force hands are really hard to beat. I also made 2 play mistakes (at least) that cost me 2 games versus Rug--both times it was me mapping for the wrong land.

As for cyclonic rift--I really liked it throughout the day. I overloaded it a couple of times versus maverick/elves and just cast it for 1U versus delver and turn 2 kotr a couple of times. It's really quite versatile. It really just breaks open board stalemates versus aggro decks that clog up the board--i used it a couple of times to swing in with titan, fetch 2 posts, then rift before blockers. Another time, i hid behind chasm for about 3 turns, eot overloaded rift to buy myself another 2 turns.

I was underwhelmed by both pithing needle and spellskite in my matchups--I never really found a needle early enough to matter; by the time I found it, it was usually after 1-2 wastelands already. Spellskite also didn't seem like it did that much for me: versus Rug it blocked goose, then ate a bolt (which isn't terrible I guess), but it's just useless versus ancient grudge. I think i might substitute cursed totem for the spellskite spots.

[Rock Lee]

I just played a local tournament with this deck with a fairly stock list

I went 3-1-1 and just missed top 8 due to terrible breakers. My loss and draw were both to Rug. I have to say that the delver, delver, 2x waste, 2x force hands are really hard to beat

Not to grind home this point, but you and I have bounced back and forth about repeal/bounce spells in the past, and Repeal is in the deck specifically for RUG and delver more exactly. Sometimes it takes missing top 8 on breakers to realize that though. =D Still good job on a strong showing.

If you dislike that Spellskite protects you in versatile ways against artifact removal, then I suggest Phyrexian Revoker in its spot. It is a stronger card than Cursed totem. I strongly like Spellskite because it can fix problematic situations, but my most current list doesn't run them anyhow.

[somethingdotdotdot]

Well, I'm still not convinced that repeal is better than rift. However, I think I'll try a 3-3 split of them by tweaking some stuff. As for spellskite--maybe I just didn't play enough games with it (which is entirely possible), but the artifact protection was just rarely relevant. I'm basically torn between revoker and totem--totem is better versus maverick/elves/mud while revoker is better vs storm. I suppose storm is a bigger threat than maverick, so I may end up leaning that way.

[Rock Lee]

Well, I'm still not convinced that repeal is better than rift. However, I think I'll try a 3-3 split of them by tweaking some stuff. As for spellskite--maybe I just didn't play enough games with it (which is entirely possible), but the artifact protection was just rarely relevant. I'm basically torn between revoker and totem--totem is better versus maverick/elves/mud while revoker is better vs storm. I suppose storm is a bigger threat than maverick, so I may end up leaning that way.

You also can bring in revoker against griselbrand and gads of random combo decks. I also consider revoker better than totem against mud. I found my most recently happy split between 6 removal spells to be 2 All is Dust, 4 Repeal for fairly logical reasons, but there is a large area of interpretation here.

[somethingdotdotdot]

Yea, I think revoker will probably get the nod over totem since it has broader applications.

Another question: Have you considered replacing brainstorm with ponder lately? I found brainstorm mediocre a lot of the time--it was great when I could put miracles back on top, but as the deck looks now, brainstorm is useful until top comes online. After that, brainstorm basically just becomes U: dig 1 card deeper. I was finding myself in the mid-late game stuck with 1-2 brainstorms in hand and really wishing that they were some kind of shuffle effect instead.

[Julian23]

Another question: Have you considered replacing brainstorm with ponder lately?

Dafuq did I just read?

I appreciate the thought and time you put into your explanation, but Ponder - while a good card - can not compare to Brainstorm, especially in decks that have a certain number of redundant cards built into them. Brainstorm sculpts hands, Ponder can only do so much to fix them. On top of that, Brainstorm is instant, helps a lot against Discard, is insane with shuffle effects and has pretty good odds of one day curing cancer.

tl;dr: It seems you want to play Ponder mainly for the shuffle effect - however, shuffling with Ponder is something you often try to avoid in the first place. I agree that using Top over the course of several turns sometimes leads to desperate need for shuffling but that's what Fetchlands etc. are for. Brainstorm on the other hand, is on a completely different level and undoubtedly the most powerful card in all of Legacy. Play it.

[Koby]

I think Ponder is stronger in decks trying to assemble 2 card combos i.e. Sneak Attack/Show & Tell; however they shouldn't be replacing Brainstorm. They should be working in concert. I don't think it's a good idea to cut Brainstorm altogether. Playing Ponder to supplement Brainstorm is fine in my book. I'm not sure if this fits well with SDT however.

[Rock Lee]

Yea, I think revoker will probably get the nod over totem since it has broader applications.

Another question: Have you considered replacing brainstorm with ponder lately? I found brainstorm mediocre a lot of the time--it was great when I could put miracles back on top, but as the deck looks now, brainstorm is useful until top comes online. After that, brainstorm basically just becomes U: dig 1 card deeper. I was finding myself in the mid-late game stuck with 1-2 brainstorms in hand and really wishing that they were some kind of shuffle effect instead.

Well the latest list does only run 3 brainstorm, but you can keep a hand on Trop-> brainstorm. You can't do that on ponder.



I think Ponder is stronger in decks trying to assemble 2 card combos i.e. Sneak Attack/Show & Tell; however they shouldn't be replacing Brainstorm. They should be working in concert. I don't think it's a good idea to cut Brainstorm altogether. Playing Ponder to supplement Brainstorm is fine in my book. I'm not sure if this fits well with SDT however.

I was about to write exactly what Koby stated as the response to Ponder vs Brainstorm. Older lists ran both Brainstorm and Ponder. Ponder is better when the value of your cards differs relative to the gamestate, specifically when you want to assemble combos and make the decision "I only want 1 of these 3, or none."

The way I play and build Eldrazi, you can often win with whatever you have ontop, thus making ponder weaker. If you were to build a Show & Tell or Crucible-heavy build, I could see ponder's strength greatly increasing.

SDT is this deck's Ponder, and I would not run Ponder over brainstorm in the current meta or build.

[Zeisse]

Yesterday I played and win the November tournament of ELL with a 42 players attendance.

I played the same list as the previous month to win the tournament http://manainfinito.com/coverage/listas-top16-ell-2012-octubre with a small change in the sideboard.




This is the link to the videos of the October final.

http://manainfinito.com/videos/ell-2012-octubre-final-villada-vs-mendibe




1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Flusterstorm
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Phyrexian revoker
2 Elephant Grass
1 Cursed Totem (Not expecting elves)
2 Venser, Shaper Savant


Given the short time I've had to test the last 2 weeks, I could not try the new changes of Rock Lee. I feel very comfortable with the main list.


Round 1 - BUG Landstill 2-1

-1 Bojuka bog -2 Show & tell
+3 FLusterstorm


Round 2 - Esper blade 2-1

-1 Bojuka bog -2 Show & tell
+3 FLusterstorm


Round 3 - RUG delver 2-0 (The player makes TOP 8)

-2 Candelabra of tawnos -1 Bojuka bog
+1 Tabernacle +2 Elephant grass


Round 4 - UW Miracles 2-0 (The player makes TOP 8)

-1 Bojuka bog -2 Show & tell
+3 FLusterstorm


Round 5 - UR Burn ID (The player makes TOP 8)


Round 6 - UW RIP Miracles 1-2 (The player makes top 8)

I played this round to be the first of the tournament and can start in the top

-1 Bojuka bog -2 Show & tell
+3 FLusterstorm


Quarter finals - RUG delver 2-0

-2 Candelabra of tawnos -1 Bojuka bog
+1 Tabernacle +2 Elephant grass


Semifinal - Junk 2-0

-1 Bojuka bog -1 Glacial chasm -1 Candelabra of Tawnos
+3 Flusterstorm


Final - UR burn 2-1 (Recorded in video, in 3 weeks or so in http://manainfinito.com/)

2nd game
-1 Bojuka bog -3 Pithing needle -1 Candelabra of Tawnos
+2 Elephant grass + 3 Flusterstorm

3rd game
-3 Flusterstorm
+3 Chalice of the void

[Rock Lee]

Yesterday I played and win the November tournament of ELL with a 42 players attendance.

I played the same list as the previous month to win the tournament http://manainfinito.com/coverage/listas-top16-ell-2012-octubre with a small change in the sideboard.




Congratulations on your win! I didn't realize that you won the entire event, so I had to read through the whole report to find out how you did, hoping for your success. =D

It appears that you like Flusterstorm even more than I do, which is no crime, the card is incredible. I don't side it in against any of the matchups you did it for, which amuses me. Though Junk-build depending I might, if they run hymn and snapcaster.

Against RIP Combo I'm sure how you can see how Flusterstorm was not effective against RIP Combo, and Beast Within, or if you indeed have that much RIP Combo, Krosan Grip, would be stronger choices. You also could bring in Venser, although I find him somewhat slow against RIP combo, which can have a significant clock build-depending.

I am amazed that you sided out bojuka bog against RUG Delver, since it is the major answer to Nimble Mongoose, and I find that often playing single lands against them is the least-dangerous route. Again the deck shows its resilience against multiple siding strategies though!

Lastly, against UR burn, I often side exactly the same as I do against rug, despite WANTING to side in Flusterstorms. I'm sure you realize that you would have loved Spellskite against that matchup. I think not siding in Chalice game 2, but opting for it game 3 is controversial, but a significantly better choice than in game 2 and keeping it in game 3. I have been testing a chalice-less sideboard recently, so I am intrigued as to how important chalice was for you in your Finals game 3.

[Rock Lee]

Just won a 3 Round bye for GP Denver!

5 Rounds, to a Top 4. I'll post a report in a bit.

Report here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25101-GPT-win-with-Turbo-Eldrazi-Lost-Harbor-Westfield-MA&p=687723#post687723).

[SBGpinas]

Just won a 3 Round bye for GP Denver!

5 Rounds, to a Top 4. I'll post a report in a bit.

Report here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25101-GPT-win-with-Turbo-Eldrazi-Lost-Harbor-Westfield-MA&p=687723#post687723).

grats on the win!

quick question, what exactly prompted the addition of 2 all is dust at the expense of brainstorm?

and how does it fair against the premier aggro decks of legacy in your testing (merfolk, gobs, RUG, zoo, etc.)?

[Rock Lee]

grats on the win!

quick question, what exactly prompted the addition of 2 all is dust at the expense of brainstorm?

and how does it fair against the premier aggro decks of legacy in your testing (merfolk, gobs, RUG, zoo, etc.)?

I love brainstorm. It is great, awesome, super strong. However when you have a strong hand, Brainstorm is weak and often only "draw 1 card for 1 colored mana." For most decks this is an acceptable loss. For this deck, colored mana is at a premium, so I've been testing sub-4 Brainstorm for awhile and finally went through with it. I'm not sold on only 2, but for now it is working for me.

All is Dust has been a card that existed in the deck in the past. It is a meta call. With more combo, more control and less permanents, you can go down to 0 All is Dust, and simply ignore the board. Even with high tempo presence, you can ignore the board, as is seen by my beating goblins in SCG Providence many times. However, this requires more elaborate and specific play, which always opens up possibilities of losing. All is Dust simplifies these games into, ruin your board, buy myself a huge amount of breathing room, and just win.

It proved itself to be extremely strong at the GPT and the event last week at Danvers, MA, which I also won. Another way to think of All is Dust, is the stronger Cavern of Souls, Planeswalkers, and 3 cmc creatures becomes, the better All is Dust is. Considering that the Meta is rich with those three, All is Dust was the obvious choice.

[Zeisse]

Sorry with my English, I am using a translator.



It appears that you like Flusterstorm even more than I do, which is no crime, the card is incredible. I don't side it in against any of the matchups you did it for, which amuses me. Though Junk-build depending I might, if they run hymn and snapcaster.

The truth is that I've found the flustestorm very useful against control decks and discard/GSZ decks. In my metagame, miracles players have learned to play against our deck knowing how important is a fast Entreat the angel and Vendillion clique or adding cards like Humillity and Back to basics to the sideboard. Do not get me wrong, the pairing seems favorable but I like being able to completely protect the Repeals. We do not lose anything by taking out the Bojuka bog and 2 Show & tell a card does not seem better than the flusterstorms in this pairing.




Against RIP Combo I'm sure how you can see how Flusterstorm was not effective against RIP Combo, and Beast Within, or if you indeed have that much RIP Combo, Krosan Grip, would be stronger choices. You also could bring in Venser, although I find him somewhat slow against RIP combo, which can have a significant clock build-depending.

In this pairing I sideboarded wrong. In the second game I did not know that my opponent was playing Rest in peace and Helm of obedience and he beat me in the fifth turn with the combo. In the third game my opponent played a needle naming candelabra, necessary for my game at the time, followed by a Vendillion clique and a Jace the mind sculptor. I was not in the game at any time. I will test the Krosan grips or Beast whitings in the sideboard this weeks.




I am amazed that you sided out bojuka bog against RUG Delver, since it is the major answer to Nimble Mongoose, and I find that often playing single lands against them is the least-dangerous route. Again the deck shows its resilience against multiple siding strategies though!

The truth is that every time I've faced RUG Delver I've never had problems with the Nimble mongooses.




Lastly, against UR burn, I often side exactly the same as I do against rug, despite WANTING to side in Flusterstorms. I'm sure you realize that you would have loved Spellskite against that matchup. I think not siding in Chalice game 2, but opting for it game 3 is controversial, but a significantly better choice than in game 2 and keeping it in game 3. I have been testing a chalice-less sideboard recently, so I am intrigued as to how important chalice was for you in your Finals game 3.

This UR burn did not play Force of will, only Daze and Spell pierce with more burn. I lost the second game by two Price of progress after making a wrong play, and in the third game I decided to change strategy. I made several mistakes again in the third game from exhaustion but I could take the win.


Sorry for not being able to express myself as I would like.

PD: Now I have a little more time I'll try All is dusts.

PD II: Congrants on your win Rock Lee, I hope you get a good result at the GP.

[Rock Lee]

Sorry with my English, I am using a translator.

PD: Now I have a little more time I'll try All is dusts.

PD II: Congrants on your win Rock Lee, I hope you get a good result at the GP.

Your English is better than 99% of native speakers. All is Dust has proven to be wonderful! Thanks, the GP is in 2 Months, so plenty of time to prepare and further tune to a Junk centered metagame.

[xfxf]

Are there any matchups except Storm and High Tide where you are not favorable?

[Julian23]

Are there any matchups except Storm and High Tide where you are not favorable?

I have a theory about Legacy, that whenever someone states this questions, the answer is very likely to be "Dragon Stompy." And in case this is true, you are looking at a pretty damn strong deck.

[Rock Lee]

Are there any matchups except Storm and High Tide where you are not favorable?

Any combo deck that isn't 100% reliant on the graveyard is contingent on winning both of game 2 and 3. Winning both those games is based off of proper sideboard choices before the event relative to the meta. In this sense, nearly all combo is unfavorable, but with proper sideboarding only a small portion of the remaining combo is unfavorable.

Because of this, the unfavorable matchups change with every sideboard choice. Currently, the worst matchups are as follows in this order:

MUD, Elves, Belcher, High Tide, Tendrils-Storm, Dragon Stompy, Sea Stompy, Sneaky/Omni-Show.

The entire sideboard is geared towards beating these matchups with high consistency game 2 and 3, whilst not being entirely dead to other random combo decks at the same time.


The last 3 on that list I have a strong plan against, they all lose to Show & Tell resolution, and Beast Within has a strong role, so I don't fear them nearly as much as the first 4.

[SBGpinas]

This question goes out to all who do testing with this deck.

Imagine an extremely diverse meta, with virtually equal amounts of the following decks:
1. UW Miracles
2. RUG Delver
3. ANT
4. Merfolk
5. Goblins
6. Burn
7. Dredge
8. Mono-Black Aggro/Control
9. SneakyShow/OmniTell
10. Blade Control
11. Other Random Combo (MUD, Elves, High Tide, Belcher)

how would you tweak the main or sb for such a meta?

[Rock Lee]

This question goes out to all who do testing with this deck.

Imagine an extremely diverse meta, with virtually equal amounts of the following decks:
1. UW Miracles
2. RUG Delver
3. ANT
4. Merfolk
5. Goblins
6. Burn
7. Dredge
8. Mono-Black Aggro/Control
9. SneakyShow/OmniTell
10. Blade Control
11. Other Random Combo (MUD, Elves, High Tide, Belcher)

how would you tweak the main or sb for such a meta?

That's a healthy meta, if there truly is an even split among those decks. If you have NO maverick or Bug/Junk decks, which I find unlikely but possible, then you don't actually NEED 2 All is Dust on the main, and those could become stronger anti-combo cards, which you seem to have more than normal amounts of. However I think that the current maindeck/sideboard as of Nov 24 would suit you fine.


// Lands
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [B] Tropical Island
1 [ZEN] Island (2)
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [CMD] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [ZEN] Forest (1a)

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 [M12] Primeval Titan

// Spells
3 [US] Show and Tell
2 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [GP] Repeal
3 [10E] Pithing Needle
2 [ROE] All Is Dust

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 2 [NPH] Beast Within
SB: 2 [VI] Elephant Grass
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [NPH] Spellskite

[SBGpinas]

That's a healthy meta, if there truly is an even split among those decks. If you have NO maverick or Bug/Junk decks, which I find unlikely but possible, then you don't actually NEED 2 All is Dust on the main, and those could become stronger anti-combo cards, which you seem to have more than normal amounts of. However I think that the current maindeck/sideboard as of Nov 24 would suit you fine.


// Lands
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [B] Tropical Island
1 [ZEN] Island (2)
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [CMD] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [ZEN] Forest (1a)

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 [M12] Primeval Titan

// Spells
3 [US] Show and Tell
2 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [GP] Repeal
3 [10E] Pithing Needle
2 [ROE] All Is Dust

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 2 [NPH] Beast Within
SB: 2 [VI] Elephant Grass
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [NPH] Spellskite


Oh right, I knew i forgot something! haha!

Yes, there is plenty of Mav over here too, but varying builds... There are a couple of Traditional GW lists, 1 or 2 Natural Order lists, and 1-2 punishing mav

[Rock Lee]

Oh right, I knew i forgot something! haha!

Yes, there is plenty of Mav over here too, but varying builds... There are a couple of Traditional GW lists, 1 or 2 Natural Order lists, and 1-2 punishing mav

Yeah, sounds like a very healthy meta. The maindeck and sideboard as listed are fine for what you're describing. If you insist on changing it, which some players do despite it being a worst-choice for the deck, you could go upto 4 show & tell. if you do this be sure you go upto 3 venser in the sideboard as your show & tell matchup will be weaker.

[TheBoozeCube]

Haven't posted in a while (been working on Tezzeret Stax as a second Legacy deck), but it looks like I may finally be able to acquire a Tabernacle soon. Does anyone play Tabernacle main, or is it just purely as a silver bullet in the board?

I'm leaning towards playing it main, since I can always sac it to Crop Rotation if I don't need it and it's an easy board-out in those matchups. On the other hand, the main is pretty tight and I'd probably have to cut Sylvan Scrying or Crucible for it, which I'd rather not. It probably comes down to meta. Obviously, Tabernacle's amazing vs Aether Vial decks, Dredge, Affinity, and Zoo. I'd guess it's also probably decent vs Reanimator. And obviously, Tabernacle's terrible vs Storm (unless they whiff and have to Empty the Warrens), Omniscience, Lands, and random combo. Stoneblade and Miracles are auto-wins anyway. So I'm wondering how good Tabernacle is in the Delver and Maverick matchups? Great or just mediocre?

My current list is:

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
9 Forest

2 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Explore
1 Sylvan Scrying
3 All Is Dust
4 Crop Rotation

3 Exploration

4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Expedition Map
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard
3 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Powder Keg
2 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Surgical Extraction

[SBGpinas]

Haven't posted in a while (been working on Tezzeret Stax as a second Legacy deck), but it looks like I may finally be able to acquire a Tabernacle soon. Does anyone play Tabernacle main, or is it just purely as a silver bullet in the board?

I'm leaning towards playing it main, since I can always sac it to Crop Rotation if I don't need it and it's an easy board-out in those matchups. On the other hand, the main is pretty tight and I'd probably have to cut Sylvan Scrying or Crucible for it, which I'd rather not. It probably comes down to meta. Obviously, Tabernacle's amazing vs Aether Vial decks, Dredge, Affinity, and Zoo. I'd guess it's also probably decent vs Reanimator. And obviously, Tabernacle's terrible vs Storm (unless they whiff and have to Empty the Warrens), Omniscience, Lands, and random combo. Stoneblade and Miracles are auto-wins anyway. So I'm wondering how good Tabernacle is in the Delver and Maverick matchups? Great or just mediocre?

My current list is:

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
9 Forest

2 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Explore
1 Sylvan Scrying
3 All Is Dust
4 Crop Rotation

3 Exploration

4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Expedition Map
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard
3 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Powder Keg
2 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Surgical Extraction

Why don't you play Primeval Titan?

Not to sound biased, but it is probably the strongest card in a 12-post deck. It gains you insane amounts of life through Glimmerpost/Vesuva shenanigans and greatly accelerates the deck so you can play threats faster.

You might say that Crop Rotation does all that... what it doesn't do is provide you a tempo advantage because you never gain additional lands with Crop Rot, but you do with Primeval Titan.

[civet five]

I've been playing the Tabernacle main over the 4th Show and Tell.

[r3dd09]

I've been playing the Tabernacle main over the 4th Show and Tell.

I don't think there has been a 4th show and tell mained for awhile.

[Rock Lee]

Why don't you play Primeval Titan?

Not to sound biased, but it is probably the strongest card in a 12-post deck. It gains you insane amounts of life through Glimmerpost/Vesuva shenanigans and greatly accelerates the deck so you can play threats faster.

You might say that Crop Rotation does all that... what it doesn't do is provide you a tempo advantage because you never gain additional lands with Crop Rot, but you do with Primeval Titan.

I've concluded that TheBoozeCube has been trolling this deck for months now. He posts no results, has a Borat Avatar, and insists on the Mono-Green version being superior despite all logic and results to the contrary. See the Development thread for pages and pages of his attention seeking.


I've been playing the Tabernacle main over the 4th Show and Tell.

In my opinion the only time you would run Tabernacle on the main would be if your meta has copious amounts of Dredge, Affinity, and Storm combo. A 4th Show & Tell is for if there are gads of RUG, with minimal Omnishow. These two metas can overlap, but I find it unlikely, since Rug beats two of the prior three.

[r3dd09]

I've had a friend try and talk me out of building this deck * down 1 candelabra*. He would say this as he's playing Spiral Tide :p
This deck is a blast and the interactions with itself is pretty nuts.

[into_play]

Hello,

I've been following this thread and the developmental thread for quite some time and finally decided to sleeve it up and bring it to a local 19 player Legacy event last weekend. I have always liked mana ramp decks (I loved Tooth and Nail when it was legal in Standard) and this deck seemed the closest I could get to a controlling deck that builds mana to hardcast a bomb. I was skeptical of the deck's susceptibility to Wasteland before the event, but afterward I was very reassured with a heavy density of Pithing Needles and smart Crop Rotation play. I went 4-1 in Swiss, beating Elves, Lands, RUG and Goblins and losing to Burn, then losing to Aggro Loam in the top 8. I was running Rock Lee's SCG Providence list, but with a basic Forest in place of the Karakas, and the Karakas and a fourth Pithing Needle in the board in place of the Vensers (because I hadn't received them in the mail yet).

The deck was a blast to play though, and I feel there is a lot of room for improvement in my play. There is so much decision making throughout the game; the deck reminds me a bit of Lands with its expansive decision tree, steady land dropping and necessity of playing tightly. Unlike Lands, it has clear win conditions that are attainable fairly quickly, which I think makes this deck better. Thank you Rock Lee and other developers!

I had a couple of questions:

1. How important is having the ability to take infinite turns (either with two Emrakuls or a Karakas to replay Emrakul)? I ask because each game where I was able to hardcast my single Emrakul, I was able to have the game wrapped up anyways the following turn. Since I was paranoid of Wasteland, I really wanted a basic Forest in the maindeck, and Karakas seemed inferior to Bojuka Bog and Glacial Chasm and was put to the side. After making this change, I see that the most recent lists have both a Karakas and Forest, removing a fourth Tropical Island. Do you have any color issues removing one of your U/G sources? I have agonized over the correct land setup and how necessary it is to loop Emrakuls.

2. Has anyone had success running Drop of Honey? I see it in several listed sideboards, but little discussion of results with it. It seems like a good tempo advantage post-board that could force opponents into making poor decisions, if Repeals and Elephant Grass aren't already enough for aggro.

3. Would running a fourth Pithing Needle in the board be worth it? Every matchup where I was sitting opposite Wastelands I was very happy to see a Needle in my opening hand, as it is the most direct, proactive answer to halting Legacy's most prevalent land destruction card. Even when drawing multiples, there can be different cards to name to buy time. I noticed that older lists used to run four Needles in the 75, so the idea doesn't seem too foreign.

I'm looking forward to playing this build again!

[Rock Lee]

I had a couple of questions:

1. How important is having the ability to take infinite turns (either with two Emrakuls or a Karakas to replay Emrakul)? I ask because each game where I was able to hardcast my single Emrakul, I was able to have the game wrapped up anyways the following turn. Since I was paranoid of Wasteland, I really wanted a basic Forest in the maindeck, and Karakas seemed inferior to Bojuka Bog and Glacial Chasm and was put to the side. After making this change, I see that the most recent lists have both a Karakas and Forest, removing a fourth Tropical Island. Do you have any color issues removing one of your U/G sources? I have agonized over the correct land setup and how necessary it is to loop Emrakuls.

It is not necessary, but Karakas opens up several lines of play, such as safely show & tell'ing Eldrazi's, specifically emrakul against karakas-running decks. My major use of Karakas is abusing the bejesus out of Ulamog in obscure, but frequently present late game losing situations. This happens at least two times per major event I go to. Lastly, your only removal is shut down by Gaddock Teeg, so having a maindeck answer is paramount in important. Lots of outlier reasons justify the infinite turns bonus in my mind. I have sofar found zero color issues. You will see that the most recent list runs 4 trops, 3 misties. Always testing, as everyone should be. Also Karakas gives you serious game against Reanimator and Omnishow, who have to go for the combo instead of eldrazis.


2. Has anyone had success running Drop of Honey? I see it in several listed sideboards, but little discussion of results with it. It seems like a good tempo advantage post-board that could force opponents into making poor decisions, if Repeals and Elephant Grass aren't already enough for aggro.

Drop of Honey is good if your meta is saturated with large monsterous creatures such as MUD, Aggro Loam or Sea Stompy. Unfortunately all these decks run Chalice @ 1, making Drop of Honey a bit of a tragic card in itself. I have tested it, and have a teammate who prefers to run it, but I often find it insufficient of an answer. Beast Within often is better.


3. Would running a fourth Pithing Needle in the board be worth it? Every matchup where I was sitting opposite Wastelands I was very happy to see a Needle in my opening hand, as it is the most direct, proactive answer to halting Legacy's most prevalent land destruction card. Even when drawing multiples, there can be different cards to name to buy time. I noticed that older lists used to run four Needles in the 75, so the idea doesn't seem too foreign.

I generally play extremely brazenly against wasteland-oriented decks. I frequently side OUT my pithing needles against these decks. If you are in a heavy-wasteland meta, then run surgical extractions instead. They are good against many combo decks and change the Reanimator matchup from favorable to laughable. My logic, is people hurt their mana advancement by keeping wasteland heavy hands, and side in artifact removal anyhow. That being said, decks with Knight or Vial I keep needle in, but rarely name wasteland.

[Xtreme]

Hi guys, a while since I posted here.

Went 4-1 at our local shop with ~25 players winning grindstone-combo, junk, maverick and nic-fit. The lost game went to ANT. I have the list in the primer but missed out on 1 flusterstorm and 2 chalice from board. Need these to beat storm. Might be better to just go mindbreak trap over chalice though, as having that on top with STD feels warm and fuzzy

Next weekend nationals with ~100 players. Went 5-2 last year with monogreen, lets hope this version can get me to top 8

[r3dd09]

Hi guys, a while since I posted here.

Went 4-1 at our local shop with ~25 players winning grindstone-combo, junk, maverick and nic-fit. The lost game went to ANT. I have the list in the primer but missed out on 1 flusterstorm and 2 chalice from board. Need these to beat storm. Might be better to just go mindbreak trap over chalice though, as having that on top with STD feels warm and fuzzy

Next weekend nationals with ~100 players. Went 5-2 last year with monogreen, lets hope this version can get me to top 8

While mindbreak is good against ant, not so hot against TES. As a TES player, I'd rather see someone playing mindbreak over chalice. Chalice stops my chants * which would stop your mindbreak traps*, chalice also stops my rituals, discard spells, ponders, brainstorms and my probes. basically stops the same thing in ANT outside of chants.

So why not run something that shuts down almost half the deck?

[r3dd09]

Double post. delete plox.

[Water_Wizard]

Because Chalice is a turn 2 drop, at earliest (unless you drop it on 0, which may be the best bet for this deck).

Turbo Eldrazi runs 21 1-cc cards and does not run Sol-lands. Decks where Chalice shines run few-to-no 1-drops and run 8 Sol-lands. This enables turn 1 Chalice @ 1.

Additionally, I can't cast Chalice on turn 2 and keep mana up for Flusterstorm.

Mindbreak Trap is also better against Belcher (most of their stuff is 2-cc). MBT is arguably better against High Tide because it recycles off of Time Spiral. MBT also has a surprise factor- unlike Chalice, opponent's can't see it sitting on the board. You can also float MBT with SDT (gets around discard, but not chant). It wouldn't surprise me if most TES decks removed chants vs. Eldrazi. I think that would be the first thing to go.

[r3dd09]

Because Chalice is a turn 2 drop, at earliest (unless you drop it on 0, which may be the best bet for this deck).

Turbo Eldrazi runs 21 1-cc cards and does not run Sol-lands. Decks where Chalice shines run few-to-no 1-drops and run 8 Sol-lands. This enables turn 1 Chalice @ 1.

Additionally, I can't cast Chalice on turn 2 and keep mana up for Flusterstorm.

Mindbreak Trap is also better against Belcher (most of their stuff is 2-cc). MBT is arguably better against High Tide because it recycles off of Time Spiral. MBT also has a surprise factor- unlike Chalice, opponent's can't see it sitting on the board. You can also float MBT with SDT (gets around discard, but not chant). It wouldn't surprise me if most TES decks removed chants vs. Eldrazi. I think that would be the first thing to go.

Dropping for 0 would be good. Locking mox, LED and petal.

I do agree that trap is better against belcher and time spiral. As for the TES matchup, it'd be iffy. If the standard list was still running the 7 chants like they use to, I'd easily cut a few for other stuff, but now they're running about 3-4 main. Depends on how greedy the TES player wants to play he could side out all, or keep a few. Granted, TES chants, you play crop and get glacial in response. This forces them to go EtW which Turbo Eldrazi should win.


We should get insight from Cook and Rock. I'll try to talk to Cook about how he'd sideboard and report back. I'm sure Rock will post about the matchup soon.

[SBGpinas]

I played this deck locally at a semi-major event with 70~ players. I went with a list identical to the one in the primer except with a different SB:

4 x Flusterstorm
3 x Mindbreak Trap
2 x Elephant Grass
2 x Venser Shaper Savant
1 x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 x Chalice of the Void

My buddies and I decided on the 3 x Chalice of the Void instead of 2 x Beast Within and 1 x Spellskite because we expected a lot of Storm Combo in our meta.

Went 5-1-1 after 7 Rounds, and I ended up 7th, but unfortunately I lost at the quarterfinals due to a horrible play error on my part.

Here's a short recap of my matchups that day. I don't have notes on any of my matches so, this will be short and taken from memory:

Round 1: vs. Nic Fit 2-0

Game 1 I was able to power out Ulamog pretty early, but by then the opponent played a Sigarda, Host of Herons. I answered by playing Emrakul, but I was at a semi-dangerous life level at that point (since he had Sigarda and Thrun in play on his side), so i decided to keep both boys on the defense. He responded by sacrificing an Academy Rector to fetch Faith's Fetters on Emrakul, which gave Sigarda free reign to attack. i was able to stall for time by dropping Glimmerposts, until I found Karakas to bounce Emrakul, and play him again for infinite turns.

Game 2 My opponent sided in some Helm of Obediences hoping to flip an eldrazi. He also played Humility in the hopes it would stop the boys from wreaking havoc. Fortunately, the trigger on the eldrazi is on cast, not an EtB effect (we had to confirm with the judge), so a hard-casted Kozilek enabled me to draw into Ulamog, and destroy the pesky enchantment. A last-ditch effort moat tried to stop the damage, but I had Karakas available to bounce Ulamog and play him for the win



Round 2: vs. UW Miracles 2-1

Game 1 I had the sheer unluck of not drawing any Cloudposts. All my fetch spells were countered, and JTMS' ultimate finished me off.

Game 2 and 3 went smoothly, with me able to power out the boys even through counterspells and Vendillion Cliques.



Round 3: vs. LED Dredge 2-0

Game 1 I cast Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog just when he had a ton of cards in the GY and no threats on board. It was over soon after as he could not recover.

Game 2 I rode on the back of Elephant Grass and got 2 Expedition Maps in play ready to fetch the Bog and Vesuva if needed. My opponent scooped when I cracked one of them end of his turn for a Bog.



Round 4: vs. ANT 0-2

Game 1 went without a hitch for the opponent.

Game 2 was the same, as I kept a hand with no answers in the hopes that Brainstorm and SDT will provide them. They didn't.



Round 5: vs. BG Rock 2-0

Game 1 A hard-casted Emrakul weakened my opponent's board, but he had enough resources left-over and played a Liliana of the Veil next turn, and used her -2 ability to force me to sac Emrakul. Phyrexian Revoker on my SDT forced me to top-deck for answers. I eventually drew into Emrakul again and sealed the deal.

Game 2 I was able to Show and Tell Ulamog into play turn 3. My opponent had no outs and scooped.



Round 6: vs. RUG Delver 1-1

Game 1 My opponent had a very strong board and applied a ton of pressure before I could stall with a Glacial Chasm. I struggled to ramp up, but with no Cloudposts going my way, I couldn't get enough mana to cast the All is Dust in my hand, and he finished me off with Lightning Bolts when I could no longer pay for Chasm during my upkeep.

Game 2 I was able to prevent my opponent from applying pressure, but at the same time he was disrupting me. 2 Primeval Titans came down on my side, and went on the assault for the kill. Unfortunately, time was called during this round, so we were unable to play the 3rd game and were forced to draw the round.



Round 7: vs. UW Miracles 2-0

Game 1 I resolved a Show and Tell for Primeval Titan. He scooped once he realized what the deck was up to as he had no removal in his hand.

Game 2 We went back and forth for a while, and a resolved Candelabra powered out Primeval Titan, which, again, he had no answer for. He scooped soon afterward.



Quarterfinals: vs. ANT 1-2

Game 1 He had a terrible hand, and I was able to play Emrakul off a Primeval Titan.

Game 2 He killed me on turn 2 on the back of a Silence. I only had 1 counter in hand, so I couldn't stop it.

Game 3 Is a long game, basically with me able to answer his first attempt. I had a Chalice for 1 and Chalice for 0, but I could not ramp up and made a crucial error of not casting Mindbreak Trap on his Ad Nauseam, which is the last card in his hand, thinking I would be fine. Hull breach on Chalice-1 allowed him to play Silence next turn and combo me out.

I won a Revised Plateau for my trouble, and a bye for the next major event. All in all, the deck performed beautifully, and I would definitely play it again next time!

[Water_Wizard]

Dropping for 0 would be good. Locking mox, LED and petal.

I do agree that trap is better against belcher and time spiral. As for the TES matchup, it'd be iffy. If the standard list was still running the 7 chants like they use to, I'd easily cut a few for other stuff, but now they're running about 3-4 main. Depends on how greedy the TES player wants to play he could side out all, or keep a few. Granted, TES chants, you play crop and get glacial in response. This forces them to go EtW which Turbo Eldrazi should win.


We should get insight from Cook and Rock. I'll try to talk to Cook about how he'd sideboard and report back. I'm sure Rock will post about the matchup soon.

I'm looking forward to what you discover from Cook. I imagine if he knew we were running FStorm and MBT, he would leave his Chants and Discard in. However, if he was unfamiliar with the list, Chants would could out (maybe coming back in for g3).

Glacial allows them to Tendrils (it would actually push them away from the EtW plan). Glacial Chasm prevents damage; Tendrils of Agony is loss of life.

[Water_Wizard]

I'm having a lot of difficulty winning the Deadguy Ale match-up. Thoughtseize, IoK, Dark Confidant, SFM, Batterskull, Liliana, Vindicate, Wasteland, and Karakas just prove to be too much disruption and too quick of a clock. I'm never able to get my mana developed, and around turn 5-6, I'm dead.

I'm running Rock Lee's list. I made some minor changes to test some new things and to adjust for my meta (heavy aggro/mid-range). These changes were (starting from RL's 25NOV12 list): MAIN: -2 Brainstorm, -1 Tropical Island, +2 Jace, TMS, +1 Misty Rainforest. SIDEBOARD: -2 Beast Within, -1 Spellskite, +1 Venser, +2 Surgical Extraction

I decided to forgo Brainstorm (I know it's the best card in the format, don't remind me) due to the lack of 'traditional' shuffle effects in the deck. A traditional shuffle effect is a fetchland - RL's list runs 3. I know there are Crop Rotations, and Expedition Maps, Primeval Titans, and Eye of Ugins. However, these methods just weren't cutting it. Usually, when you want to Brainstorm, you are in a bad spot. Using Crop Rotation as a shuffle effect requires that you have 2 colored mana, or BS eot and Crop Rotate on your upkeep. E. Map requires an additional 2 mana. I found the times that I needed to Brainstorm, the shuffle effects were too mana intensive, so I was basically using Brainstorm to draw a card. I decided on JTMS because he is a permanent out, he has some synergy with bouncing dudes or protecting the board, and he can legend-rule other player's Jaces.

The only deck I'm consistently beating is UW - slow clock and they leave our mana-base unmolested. I know this deck takes a great deal of experience to pilot; perhaps I'm just not there yet. I find that I'm always 'stuck in the middle' with my mana base - either not enough colored sources to cast a Primeval Titan or too little mana to cast an Eldrazi. Liliana has been a real beat-stick. When she comes down on turn 2 or 3, it's pretty much GG. Thoughts, suggestions?

Against Aggro, I know the plan -> survive or try to race with an early S&T. Against Control, I know the plan -> Keep hitting your land drops and win through threat density. Against Mid-Range, I'm getting 'stuck in the middle' -> Their early disrupting is crippling me and I end up with a semi-developed board, 3-4 cards in hand, and 0 life.

Perhaps it's best to just play it safe and go for protection first. I've also had some trouble vs. BUG Landstill. The Surgicals help in that match-up, but it's just tough when they land man-lands and an early Standstill. It almost made me want to play Wasteland, even as a sideboard slot. I guess I can Vesuva their manlands and block and just keep making my land drops. But Wasteland with Life from the Loam breaks this deck's back.

[blindspotxxx]

I played this deck locally at a semi-major event with 70~ players. I went with a list identical to the one in the primer except with a different SB:

4 x Flusterstorm
3 x Mindbreak Trap
2 x Elephant Grass
2 x Venser Shaper Savant
1 x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 x Chalice of the Void

My buddies and I decided on the 3 x Chalice of the Void instead of 2 x Beast Within and 1 x Spellskite because we expected a lot of Storm Combo in our meta.

Went 5-1-1 after 7 Rounds, and I ended up 7th, but unfortunately I lost at the quarterfinals due to a horrible play error on my part.

Here's a short recap of my matchups that day. I don't have notes on any of my matches so, this will be short and taken from memory:

Round 1: vs. Nic Fit 2-0

Game 1 I was able to power out Ulamog pretty early, but by then the opponent played a Sigarda, Host of Herons. I answered by playing Emrakul, but I was at a semi-dangerous life level at that point (since he had Sigarda and Thrun in play on his side), so i decided to keep both boys on the defense. He responded by sacrificing an Academy Rector to fetch Faith's Fetters on Emrakul, which gave Sigarda free reign to attack. i was able to stall for time by dropping Glimmerposts, until I found Karakas to bounce Emrakul, and play him again for infinite turns.

Game 2 My opponent sided in some Helm of Obediences hoping to flip an eldrazi. He also played Humility in the hopes it would stop the boys from wreaking havoc. Fortunately, the trigger on the eldrazi is on cast, not an EtB effect (we had to confirm with the judge), so a hard-casted Kozilek enabled me to draw into Ulamog, and destroy the pesky enchantment. A last-ditch effort moat tried to stop the damage, but I had Karakas available to bounce Ulamog and play him for the win



Round 2: vs. UW Miracles 2-1

Game 1 I had the sheer unluck of not drawing any Cloudposts. All my fetch spells were countered, and JTMS' ultimate finished me off.

Game 2 and 3 went smoothly, with me able to power out the boys even through counterspells and Vendillion Cliques.



Round 3: vs. LED Dredge 2-0

Game 1 I cast Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog just when he had a ton of cards in the GY and no threats on board. It was over soon after as he could not recover.

Game 2 I rode on the back of Elephant Grass and got 2 Expedition Maps in play ready to fetch the Bog and Vesuva if needed. My opponent scooped when I cracked one of them end of his turn for a Bog.



Round 4: vs. ANT 0-2

Game 1 went without a hitch for the opponent.

Game 2 was the same, as I kept a hand with no answers in the hopes that Brainstorm and SDT will provide them. They didn't.



Round 5: vs. BG Rock 2-0

Game 1 A hard-casted Emrakul weakened my opponent's board, but he had enough resources left-over and played a Liliana of the Veil next turn, and used her -2 ability to force me to sac Emrakul. Phyrexian Revoker on my SDT forced me to top-deck for answers. I eventually drew into Emrakul again and sealed the deal.

Game 2 I was able to Show and Tell Ulamog into play turn 3. My opponent had no outs and scooped.



Round 6: vs. RUG Delver 1-1

Game 1 My opponent had a very strong board and applied a ton of pressure before I could stall with a Glacial Chasm. I struggled to ramp up, but with no Cloudposts going my way, I couldn't get enough mana to cast the All is Dust in my hand, and he finished me off with Lightning Bolts when I could no longer pay for Chasm during my upkeep.

Game 2 I was able to prevent my opponent from applying pressure, but at the same time he was disrupting me. 2 Primeval Titans came down on my side, and went on the assault for the kill. Unfortunately, time was called during this round, so we were unable to play the 3rd game and were forced to draw the round.



Round 7: vs. UW Miracles 2-0

Game 1 I resolved a Show and Tell for Primeval Titan. He scooped once he realized what the deck was up to as he had no removal in his hand.

Game 2 We went back and forth for a while, and a resolved Candelabra powered out Primeval Titan, which, again, he had no answer for. He scooped soon afterward.



Quarterfinals: vs. ANT 1-2

Game 1 He had a terrible hand, and I was able to play Emrakul off a Primeval Titan.

Game 2 He killed me on turn 2 on the back of a Silence. I only had 1 counter in hand, so I couldn't stop it.

Game 3 Is a long game, basically with me able to answer his first attempt. I had a Chalice for 1 and Chalice for 0, but I could not ramp up and made a crucial error of not casting Mindbreak Trap on his Ad Nauseam, which is the last card in his hand, thinking I would be fine. Hull breach on Chalice-1 allowed him to play Silence next turn and combo me out.

I won a Revised Plateau for my trouble, and a bye for the next major event. All in all, the deck performed beautifully, and I would definitely play it again next time!

Nice report and congratulations to my team mate. We'll be ready on the 80k Legacy tournament :) Ant is a bitch to play against, you have to know and practice beating it even with 12 sideboard cards lol It sucks that they miscomputed for our team prize and we have to return the cards. Booo!

[karaxu]

Congrats! nice to see turbo eldrazi making top 8 here!

@blindspotxxx

what do you mean wrong calculation? We were the team with 41 points, And your team had 43 right? so who won? :D

[Water_Wizard]

I played this deck locally at a semi-major event with 70~ players.

Went 5-1-1 after 7 Rounds, and I ended up 7th, but unfortunately I lost at the quarterfinals due to a horrible play error on my part.

Round 1: vs. Nic Fit 2-0

Round 2: vs. UW Miracles 2-1

Round 3: vs. LED Dredge 2-0

Round 4: vs. ANT 0-2

Round 5: vs. BG Rock 2-0

Round 6: vs. RUG Delver 1-1

Round 7: vs. UW Miracles 2-0

Quarterfinals: vs. ANT 1-2

I won a Revised Plateau for my trouble, and a bye for the next major event. All in all, the deck performed beautifully, and I would definitely play it again next time!

Congrats! A Revised Plateau is better than nothing!

How many Wastelands did you face? How many Liliana's? How much dedicated land destruction?

It looks like 4 Wastelands vs. RUG (draw) and possible Wastelands vs. BG Rock and/or UW Miracles (although Caleb's BG Rock and UW can run less than the full playset of Wastelands).

[SBGpinas]

Congrats! nice to see turbo eldrazi making top 8 here!

@blindspotxxx

what do you mean wrong calculation? We were the team with 41 points, And your team had 43 right? so who won? :D

There was a team with 44 apparently... I was informed by our Judge... They didn't know about it until an hour after Top 8 started, so I dunno if the winning team even knows. Anyway, it's not a big deal to return the prize it's still all on-hand anyway.

[SBGpinas]

Congrats! A Revised Plateau is better than nothing!

How many Wastelands did you face? How many Liliana's? How much dedicated land destruction?

It looks like 4 Wastelands vs. RUG (draw) and possible Wastelands vs. BG Rock and/or UW Miracles (although Caleb's BG Rock and UW can run less than the full playset of Wastelands).

Only the RUG Delver had Wastelands.

The Rock was the only matchup with LotV.

Nic Fit was using Vindicate + Eternal Witness to slow down my lands whenever he can, but i shut off Recurring Nightmare, so that put an end to it after a few turns.

[r3dd09]

I'm looking forward to what you discover from Cook. I imagine if he knew we were running FStorm and MBT, he would leave his Chants and Discard in. However, if he was unfamiliar with the list, Chants would could out (maybe coming back in for g3).

Glacial allows them to Tendrils (it would actually push them away from the EtW plan). Glacial Chasm prevents damage; Tendrils of Agony is loss of life.

Good catch, writing posts at 6 am in the morning isn't the best idea. Go working nights.

[Rock Lee]

I'm having a lot of difficulty winning the Deadguy Ale match-up. Thoughtseize, IoK, Dark Confidant, SFM, Batterskull, Liliana, Vindicate, Wasteland, and Karakas just prove to be too much disruption and too quick of a clock. I'm never able to get my mana developed, and around turn 5-6, I'm dead.

I'm running Rock Lee's list. I made some minor changes to test some new things and to adjust for my meta (heavy aggro/mid-range). These changes were (starting from RL's 25NOV12 list): MAIN: -2 Brainstorm, -1 Tropical Island, +2 Jace, TMS, +1 Misty Rainforest. SIDEBOARD: -2 Beast Within, -1 Spellskite, +1 Venser, +2 Surgical Extraction

No brainstorm is what is killing you against Deadguy ale. you beat Deadguy by making your turn 3-4 significantly better than theirs. They lose to Primeval titan hitting play, but I can respect them having a dangerous threat/clock in Confidant chugging along. I've actually been testing Pongify, as crazy as it sounds exactly for this reason. Crazy testing aside though, All is Dust wipes them out, as does titan. You play for turn 3-4, and brainstorm hides your threats until then.

[Water_Wizard]

Only the RUG Delver had Wastelands.

The Rock was the only matchup with LotV.

Nic Fit was using Vindicate + Eternal Witness to slow down my lands whenever he can, but i shut off Recurring Nightmare, so that put an end to it after a few turns.

Thanks for the response. Liliana of the Viel and Leyline of the Void have the same initials. I spent a good 10 seconds wondering why the hell it mattered that The Rock was running Leyline of the Void and why the heck he would bring it in against Turbo Eldrazi, and then it all made sense...


No brainstorm is what is killing you against Deadguy ale. you beat Deadguy by making your turn 3-4 significantly better than theirs. They lose to Primeval titan hitting play, but I can respect them having a dangerous threat/clock in Confidant chugging along. I've actually been testing Pongify, as crazy as it sounds exactly for this reason. Crazy testing aside though, All is Dust wipes them out, as does titan. You play for turn 3-4, and brainstorm hides your threats until then.

You really think the 2 Brainstorms are going to matter that much? A couple of times, I did draw All is Dust, but it just didn't matter. The turn before I was going to be able to cast it (Cloudpost, Glimmervoid, Eye of Ugin, Cloudpost (coming into play tapped)) he Vindicates one of my Cloudposts. Overall, he drew pretty well. Against Tempo decks (and Combo decks), it's hard not to lose to god draws (i.e. when they've played every card in their hand by turn 4 and have a commanding board state).

Thanks for the advice. Generally, I'm seeing this deck's plan vs:
Aggro/Combo - just try to survive - find Chasm
Midrange - get to turn 3/4 with enough lands to drop your bombs
Control - who cares? the longer the game goes, the more chance you have a winning

[Rock Lee]

You really think the 2 Brainstorms are going to matter that much? A couple of times, I did draw All is Dust, but it just didn't matter. The turn before I was going to be able to cast it (Cloudpost, Glimmervoid, Eye of Ugin, Cloudpost (coming into play tapped)) he Vindicates one of my Cloudposts. Overall, he drew pretty well. Against Tempo decks (and Combo decks), it's hard not to lose to god draws (i.e. when they've played every card in their hand by turn 4 and have a commanding board state).

The 2 Brainstorm choice is very recent, and a theoretical change. I'm all over on it. currently testing a version with 4 brainstorm again. Take it with a grain of salt.

Even with 2 Brainstorm, I think that yes it is worth it. The reason I went down to 2 is that your colored mana requirements can be very harsh early on, but against Deadguy Brainstorm is your best mana use early.

[SBGpinas]

Thanks for the response. Liliana of the Viel and Leyline of the Void have the same initials. I spent a good 10 seconds wondering why the hell it mattered that The Rock was running Leyline of the Void and why the heck he would bring it in against Turbo Eldrazi, and then it all made sense...

Lol sorry I thought LotV was the colloquial term for Liliana :tongue:




You really think the 2 Brainstorms are going to matter that much? A couple of times, I did draw All is Dust, but it just didn't matter. The turn before I was going to be able to cast it (Cloudpost, Glimmervoid, Eye of Ugin, Cloudpost (coming into play tapped)) he Vindicates one of my Cloudposts. Overall, he drew pretty well. Against Tempo decks (and Combo decks), it's hard not to lose to god draws (i.e. when they've played every card in their hand by turn 4 and have a commanding board state).

Thanks for the advice. Generally, I'm seeing this deck's plan vs:
Aggro/Combo - just try to survive - find Chasm
Midrange - get to turn 3/4 with enough lands to drop your bombs
Control - who cares? the longer the game goes, the more chance you have a winning

Don't forget about Repeals. It gave me a lot of breathing room against the RUG matchup.

[MGB]

I wanted to like this deck, and really think that the idea is cool, but after play-testing this against the field, I've come to the conclusion that it's really hard to consistently win while playing combo unless: a.) you're really fast (Belcher, Dredge) or b.) you have lots of protection (Show'n'Tell/Omniscience, old-school Flash) or c.) you're a well-balanced mix of both (ANT, High Tide)

[zathe922]

I wanted to like this deck, and really think that the idea is cool, but after play-testing this against the field, I've come to the conclusion that it's really hard to consistently win while playing combo unless: a.) you're really fast (Belcher, Dredge) or b.) you have lots of protection (Show'n'Tell/Omniscience, old-school Flash) or c.) you're a well-balanced mix of both (ANT, High Tide)

You shouldn't play this deck like a combo deck, try to play it more like a control deck and you might get better results.

Played a small 3 round legacy tournament yesterday (Sadly, there's not a lot of legacy players where i live). Went 2-1, loosing in the last round against high tide because i missread the situation and didn't needle his candelabra.
my 2 wins was against goblins and monoblack contamination.

[MGB]

You shouldn't play this deck like a combo deck, try to play it more like a control deck and you might get better results.


Then the situation with no counterspells and very little board or hand control becomes even more of a problem, because control deck implies even more of a "slow clock".

[Rock Lee]

I wanted to like this deck, and really think that the idea is cool, but after play-testing this against the field, I've come to the conclusion that it's really hard to consistently win while playing combo unless: a.) you're really fast (Belcher, Dredge) or b.) you have lots of protection (Show'n'Tell/Omniscience, old-school Flash) or c.) you're a well-balanced mix of both (ANT, High Tide)

As has been mentioned Ad Nauseam, this is the hardest deck to play in Legacy. I frequently still make play errors that cost me matches. The events where I am well rested, sharp and attentive are the ones I win. The ones where I am slacking, playing sloppy and tired are the ones I do well, but ultimately do not take the top prize. The deck always provides me the tools the win with extremely rare exceptions.

I would be curious as to the math and numbers behind your testing. I have two-fisted tested extensively (20 matches each) and recorded my findings against the major combo archetypes. I post these results often and have in the development thread. So far there are only two combo decks that are not favorable matchups, including post-side games, and those are Elves & MUD. Without those numbers, a statement such as "its really hard to consistently win" is simply anecdotal.

In addition to this, the possibility opens up that a lack of understanding about the deck as was mentioned, such as playing the deck as a combo deck, may be the real reasoning.

[MGB]

As has been mentioned Ad Nauseam, this is the hardest deck to play in Legacy. I frequently still make play errors that cost me matches. The events where I am well rested, sharp and attentive are the ones I win. The ones where I am slacking, playing sloppy and tired are the ones I do well, but ultimately do not take the top prize. The deck always provides me the tools the win with extremely rare exceptions.


From my experience, if a deck is "harder" to play, it means that there is less margin for error within individual matches. The cause for a decreased margin for error can usually be attributed to a lower level of raw power and efficiency. Decks with such a razor thin margin for error are simply ill-suited to be tournament-winning decks. Even the smartest, most seasoned player will have lapses in concentration during matches - therefore, his success in a tournament will then depend on the consistency and power of his deck. Because of this, the top-placing decks are most frequently the most consistent and efficient decks - RUG Delver and Maverick now, Vengevine Survival a while back, and further back CounterTop. Even the best players appreciate a wider margin for error. Only a fool would turn down the opportunity to enjoy a wider margin for error.



I would be curious as to the math and numbers behind your testing. I have two-fisted tested extensively (20 matches each) and recorded my findings against the major combo archetypes. I post these results often and have in the development thread. So far there are only two combo decks that are not favorable matchups, including post-side games, and those are Elves & MUD. Without those numbers, a statement such as "its really hard to consistently win" is simply anecdotal.


I have to admit that my testing has not been exhaustive and mostly does fall under the category of "anecdotal". I have spent the past week playing this deck against the majority of the DTB field (Delver, Goblins, Stoneblade, Miracles, Maverick, Storm) both online and against friends. Clearly my testing has not been as thorough as yours and thus my opinion is not a definitive one. However, as merely an observer from afar, I wanted to add my personal opinion on this creation. I mean not to disrespect the labor involved in tuning and playtesting this deck. I did, though, want to sound a cautionary note about the precarious positioning of this deck, as it currently exists, along historically immutable archetype definitions - based on limited anecdotal experience, of course.

The same type of limited anecdotal testing led me to identify U/B Reanimator as the best deck in the time period right after the unbanning of Entomb before the Pros began to acknowledge the potency of that deck, and prior to the Mystical Tutor banning which neutered the deck's versatility and redundancy which made it a clear Tier-1 choice.

Similarly, when Vengevine began to infiltrate the Survival archetype and explode its level of power beyond even the regular Tier-1 denizens, it was relatlively easy to play that deck or even merely look at a decklist to realize the raw power, consistency, and resultant margin for error in that particular iteration - it not only played a full suite of blue protection, but featured an extremely efficient and low-cost engine with multiple redundancy points and powerful alternative win conditions.

You just get that "feeling" of raw power in your hands when you play-tested those decks due to the combination of speed and protection and resiliency that you don't even approach with this deck, aside from the stellar late-game inevitability. The "feeling" that I get from playing this deck is similar to the feeling that I got playing something like Mono Blue Control - it has all of the tools to win vs. anything in the format, and it even has some "blowout" matchups that completely fold to your specific gameplan, but in most matches vs. the tier decks you have to play almost perfectly, and it takes a great toll on you mentally, and even the slightest error can lead to a close loss after a grinding series of turns.

Consistent winning almost always involves an inherent margin for error. Even if you don't play your tightest game, RUG Delver, in your hands as a pilot, will out-efficient the competition and gift you games you shouldn't have won with a different deck that demands tighter play. That's my reasoning behind the "hard to consistently win" statement. Sure, if you can master the lines of play of this deck and count on yourself to maintain razor-sharp focus throughout several hours of tournament play, then maybe you can top8 with this deck regularly. But why play a deck that demands this when you can play a more consistent, efficient deck with better answers that doesn't necessarily punish you for sub-optimal play?



In addition to this, the possibility opens up that a lack of understanding about the deck as was mentioned, such as playing the deck as a combo deck, may be the real reasoning.

If you play this deck like a control deck, then what are your tools of control? I can use Repeal as a control function rather than a stalling tactic, but in that mode it is still merely a tempo play. I can fetch Glacial Chasm, but that, again, is not a lock as much as it is a stalling tactic for a combo deck, and one that is susceptible to the ubiquitous Wasteland (when you don't have Pithing Needle in every opening hand). This deck doesn't really run any hard card-advantage control tools like board sweepers, unless you play All is Dust.

[Rock Lee]

You just get that "feeling" of raw power in your hands when you play-tested those decks due to the combination of speed and protection and resiliency that you don't even approach with this deck, aside from the stellar late-game inevitability. The "feeling" that I get from playing this deck is similar to the feeling that I got playing something like Mono Blue Control - it has all of the tools to win vs. anything in the format, and it even has some "blowout" matchups that completely fold to your specific gameplan, but in most matches vs. the tier decks you have to play almost perfectly, and it takes a great toll on you mentally, and even the slightest error can lead to a close loss after a grinding series of turns.

Consistent winning almost always involves an inherent margin for error. Even if you don't play your tightest game, RUG Delver, in your hands as a pilot, will out-efficient the competition and gift you games you shouldn't have won with a different deck that demands tighter play. That's my reasoning behind the "hard to consistently win" statement. Sure, if you can master the lines of play of this deck and count on yourself to maintain razor-sharp focus throughout several hours of tournament play, then maybe you can top8 with this deck regularly. But why play a deck that demands this when you can play a more consistent, efficient deck with better answers that doesn't necessarily punish you for sub-optimal play?

I think you're confusing my statement about "needing to play the deck at a higher level than other decks ask" with deck inefficiency or impotency. I'm talking about the 3-4 difficult decisions per-Swiss you'll need to make to ensure a Top-8 placing. If you can't see the power behind the deck in its current form, then I strongly believe you are playing it too aggressively.



If you play this deck like a control deck, then what are your tools of control? I can use Repeal as a control function rather than a stalling tactic, but in that mode it is still merely a tempo play. I can fetch Glacial Chasm, but that, again, is not a lock as much as it is a stalling tactic for a combo deck, and one that is susceptible to the ubiquitous Wasteland (when you don't have Pithing Needle in every opening hand). This deck doesn't really run any hard card-advantage control tools like board sweepers, unless you play All is Dust.

Again, if you can't see how this deck is a control deck, then I either question your definition of a control deck, mine being a deck that sacrifices tempo for implied late game card advantage, or you are missing the incredible advantage that this deck generates through massive mana generation.

[MGB]

I think you're confusing my statement about "needing to play the deck at a higher level than other decks ask" with deck inefficiency or impotency. I'm talking about the 3-4 difficult decisions per-Swiss you'll need to make to ensure a Top-8 placing. If you can't see the power behind the deck in its current form, then I strongly believe you are playing it too aggressively.


The fact that each decision has a greater effect on the outcome of the game, and the fact htat minute decisions can drastically affect the chances of winning or losing a game speak to the reduced level of power of a deck. Think of this as you would a football game: teams that win games 20-17 often are worse than teams that blow out opponents 40-6 on average. Each play of every game has more meaning and heft in the former case and random events such as a blocked punt or a fumble recovery can mean the difference between winning and losing. The latter team prevents individual random events from dramatically affecting the outcome of their game - if a single play doesn't go their way, they can still win convincingly by a score of 40-13. Individual decisions making less impact on the outcome of a game is a good thing and speaks to the power level of a deck (or team).




Again, if you can't see how this deck is a control deck, then I either question your definition of a control deck, mine being a deck that sacrifices tempo for implied late game card advantage, or you are missing the incredible advantage that this deck generates through massive mana generation.

Control decks are all about trading cards, breaking even on card advantage early in the game, and then slowly amassing an insurmountable wall of card advantage through late-game draw engines or something else that generates card advantage (the Eye of Ugin -> Eldrazi engine does indeed qualify) which gives them the ability to 1-for-1 ad infinitum later in the game. I don't see the ability to trade 1-for-1 in the early game. Repeal is a tempo tool but not a really a way to even break even on card advantage in a way that affects the board state permanently like say, a Swords to Plowshares would. You're playing tempo tools - that would fit better in a combo shell - in a control role.

Tutoring for Glacial Chasm or Glimmerpost are similar tempo plays without the ability to permanently affect the board state. Chasm is a source of virtual card advantage similar to Moat (vs. aggro decks) but in a far more temporary vein.

[Megadeus]

You play to survive the first few turns, and then late game you have the biggest bombs you could ever want. It is like a normal control deck, except instead of slamming a 4 mana Jace, you have a 15 mana win the game single card combo.

[LOLaSageOwl]

Hey rock lee I've seen you with this deck at a few events and I play at Ice sometimes. I'm the kid who hangs around with Mike Weiss.

Anyway, I was talking to my friend about this deck and he was under the impression that it's "too cute" because in a fast format like legacy inevitability doesn't matter. He has a lot of experience playing legacy, but he's one of those people who won't play an event unless it's with TES or RUG b/c he's elitist. I don't know where he gets this idea because there are plenty of non-combo decks in legacy that you just steamroll, UW miracles and stoneblade for example are always popular b/c Spikes always love to play them.

I think it would be nice if you included matchup analyses for TES, High Tide, other combo etc.

[Rock Lee]

Hey rock lee I've seen you with this deck at a few events and I play at Ice sometimes. I'm the kid who hangs around with Mike Weiss.

Anyway, I was talking to my friend about this deck and he was under the impression that it's "too cute" because in a fast format like legacy inevitability doesn't matter. He has a lot of experience playing legacy, but he's one of those people who won't play an event unless it's with TES or RUG b/c he's elitist. I don't know where he gets this idea because there are plenty of non-combo decks in legacy that you just steamroll, UW miracles and stoneblade for example are always popular b/c Spikes always love to play them.

I think it would be nice if you included matchup analyses for TES, High Tide, other combo etc.

I included a brief breakdown in the 1st post of the Established Decks thread where the other matchup analyses are. Let me know for more combo breakdowns you need/want.

About your friend, I love people who think this way. They are often the ones shaking their head trying to figure out how they just lost to something "too cute." Numbers are all that matter when it comes to meta analysis and deck choice. This deck is putting up those numbers with a highly small number of pilots, something no other archetype is doing per-person playing it. Deck representation is not the same as deck potency.

[Water_Wizard]

While we're at it, could someone please explain the proper use of Crop Rotation (besides not walking into a counterspell)?

I know this question may sound foolish, childish even, but Crop Rotation is definite card disadvantage.

The obvious use is 'saving' your land from a Wasteland, in which case you obtain parity.

Crop Rotation requires a colored source, of which this deck has 6. You usually don't want to sacrifice that colored source, so, you'll looking to sacrifice something else. You really don't want to lose a Cloudpost, usually I'm tutoring for Cloudpost or a Glimmerpost (if I need life), or a Glacial Chasm (to save my butt), or an Eye of Ugin if I have sufficient mana. However, the 3rd-4th turn play of 'sac my Tropical Island to grab a Cloudpost' hasn't been that great.

Anyhow, maybe I am just doing it wrong. Back to testing...

[Tonberryx]

I played at the same event as Rock Lee this saturday and as my first tourny with this deck i gotta say its a blast. I ended up a sad 2-2-1 but i learned so much just watching Lee play the deck. The sensei top repeal tricks blew my mind as a dig engine and I feel like this deck is so powerful against so many archetypes. After the event i actually considered testing out batterskull as an anti aggro card. Because i felt as if having it may help stabilize in scenarios where getting the two green for primaeval titan can be hard to get quickly enough to stabilize. I feel though this falls into the same category as wurmcoil engine and I feel like this has probably already been tested but some decks just lose to a big lifelinker which can sometimes be easier to cast than a titan in a pinch.

[Rock Lee]

I played at the same event as Rock Lee this saturday and as my first tourny with this deck i gotta say its a blast. I ended up a sad 2-2-1 but i learned so much just watching Lee play the deck. The sensei top repeal tricks blew my mind as a dig engine and I feel like this deck is so powerful against so many archetypes. After the event i actually considered testing out batterskull as an anti aggro card. Because i felt as if having it may help stabilize in scenarios where getting the two green for primaeval titan can be hard to get quickly enough to stabilize. I feel though this falls into the same category as wurmcoil engine and I feel like this has probably already been tested but some decks just lose to a big lifelinker which can sometimes be easier to cast than a titan in a pinch.

Thragtusk is not outside the realm of possibility against aggro.

[SBGpinas]

While we're at it, could someone please explain the proper use of Crop Rotation (besides not walking into a counterspell)?

I know this question may sound foolish, childish even, but Crop Rotation is definite card disadvantage.

The obvious use is 'saving' your land from a Wasteland, in which case you obtain parity.

Crop Rotation requires a colored source, of which this deck has 6. You usually don't want to sacrifice that colored source, so, you'll looking to sacrifice something else. You really don't want to lose a Cloudpost, usually I'm tutoring for Cloudpost or a Glimmerpost (if I need life), or a Glacial Chasm (to save my butt), or an Eye of Ugin if I have sufficient mana. However, the 3rd-4th turn play of 'sac my Tropical Island to grab a Cloudpost' hasn't been that great.

Anyhow, maybe I am just doing it wrong. Back to testing...

Based on my experience with the deck, I typically use Crop Rotation in the following ways:

1. To fetch silver bullet lands (i.e. Bojuka Bog against Reanimator/Dredge, Glacial Chasm/Tabernacle against aggro, Karakas against SnT decks)
2. In response to Land Denial from my opponent (Wasteland, Sinkhole, Vindicate, etc.)
3. To grab Eye of Ugin or Karakas during the Showtime turn (i.e. the turn you intend to play the Flying Spaghetti Monster or any of the other boys)

I seldom use Crop Rotation as a way to ramp up my lands. I always rely on Exped Map and Primeval Titan to do this. But then again, in most of the actual games where I see the possibility of using Crop Rot as a way to ramp up, my opponents are playing blue, so it was typically too risky to do.

Against Miracles, I've always sided out Crop Rotation Games 2 and 3, and it has worked for me so far.

Against RUG, I tend to keep it as an answer to Wasteland. Even if they counter it, the land dies anyway, so I spent 1 card to rid my opponent of 1 counterspell, which sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

[blindspotxxx]

Brainstorm is definitely a good way to reshuffle away the excessive Crop Rotations, but current build only has 2. Probably depends on the Metagame if the Brainstorm count will go up again.

[SBGpinas]

I'm actually a bit worried on how it plays against the BUG Delver matchup. I might up the Brainstorm count to fight against the discard, but I'm at a loss on what to cut for extra Brainstorms.

Anybody done extensive testing against BUG?

[blindspotxxx]

I'm actually a bit worried on how it plays against the BUG Delver matchup. I might up the Brainstorm count to fight against the discard, but I'm at a loss on what to cut for extra Brainstorms.

Anybody done extensive testing against BUG?

Don't worry too much on BUG Delver. If you can resolve a Top both of you will go to Top Deck mode eventually and you just need to ramp up. BUG Control however is a different story. It has Dark Confidant and Discard and Counters and Planeswalkers maybe too many problem cards?

I highly doubt that people can switch decks that easy as well as there are a scarcity of Duals in our country lol Underground Seas are pretty rare. RUG people will stick to RUG and will probably not convert :) People will most probably play the same decks they've had and only a few teams can afford to swap decks at will.

[TheBoozeCube]

Why don't you play Primeval Titan?

Not to sound biased, but it is probably the strongest card in a 12-post deck. It gains you insane amounts of life through Glimmerpost/Vesuva shenanigans and greatly accelerates the deck so you can play threats faster.

You might say that Crop Rotation does all that... what it doesn't do is provide you a tempo advantage because you never gain additional lands with Crop Rot, but you do with Primeval Titan.

I've tried playing PrimeTime, but kept cutting them for cheaper digging and tutoring. I find PrimeTime too clunky without running S&T, and I prefer to stay mono-green (and really more MUD-oriented at that). I can only reliably produce GG if I have a Candelabra in play, at which point I'd usually rather just cast All Is Dust and clear the board.

While Crop Rotation doesn't net you a land, the fact that it's an instant more than makes up for it. You can use it in response to a Wasteland, to blow out Dredge with Bojuka Bog, answer an attacker with Maze of Ith, surprise a Tendrils player with Glimmerpost, etc.

[Rock Lee]

Since folks are asking for builds. This is what I'm testing at the moment:

// Lands
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [B] Tropical Island
2 [ZEN] Island (2)
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [CMD] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 [M12] Primeval Titan

// Spells
3 [US] Show and Tell
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [GP] Repeal
2 [ROE] All Is Dust

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 3 [PLC] Pongify
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere

It is specifically for the Junk/BuG/RuG meta.

[Water_Wizard]

No Needles. Interesting.

Because everyone of the decks you listed runs Wasteland, care to specify?

@SBGpinas - Thanks so much! Your explanations really help!

@Tonberryx - At the risk of being laughed out of the room, I will mention that I've considered running 4 Tarmogoys in the main deck. In Rock Lee's 25NOV12 build, I was going to run them in the Brainstorm and All is Dust slots (the 25NOV12 build ran 2 Brainstorms and 2 All is Dust. I was going to move the All is Dust to the sideboard to fight decks like Enchantress and Elves). I figured Tarmogoyf was a solid two drop, it gave us some protection vs. aggro decks and it gave us a clock vs. combo decks. I never tested this build, but it was something I seriously considered.

[TheBoozeCube]

I've concluded that TheBoozeCube has been trolling this deck for months now. He posts no results, has a Borat Avatar, and insists on the Mono-Green version being superior despite all logic and results to the contrary. See the Development thread for pages and pages of his attention seeking.



In my opinion the only time you would run Tabernacle on the main would be if your meta has copious amounts of Dredge, Affinity, and Storm combo. A 4th Show & Tell is for if there are gads of RUG, with minimal Omnishow. These two metas can overlap, but I find it unlikely, since Rug beats two of the prior three.

We can agree to disagree. I've never said the mono-green version is "superior". I think it has better matchups against certain archetypes than UG (especially vs tempo decks), while having worse matchups against other archetypes (especially vs combo). I don't post results because I have neither the time nor the interest to write a tournament reports for random Thursday night Legacy (I usually go 4-0 or 3-1). If you don't want people to post or discuss lists that aren't yours (or variations on yours), then come out and say so. I don't have a problem with UG lists that run S&T; it's a solid deck that puts up results. I do, however, think the 12 Post archetype is broader than that. Stoneblade has UW, Esper, BW, and even Junk builds. "Logic" does not demand a particular 75 even in the same archetype.

And what's wrong with Borat?

[HammafistRoob]

And what's wrong with Borat?

He doesn't make half the sexytime that PrimeTime does.

[Rock Lee]

No Needles. Interesting.

Because everyone of the decks you listed runs Wasteland, care to specify?

The decks with recursion all run multiple ways of dealing with needle (discard/abrupt decay). I've been tallying in the back of my mind the number of times that Pithing needle stopped a wasteland from being used on me over the last 4 weeks. And the number was 3 over 12 complete events. If they have one played, they respond with it, if they haven't played it yet, they cantrip it back or abrupt decay it.

I'm testing a no-answers build, and then testing a surgicals somewhere in the 75 build.

[noiseweasel]

Oh man. Pongify.... Good find. I really wasn't liking Beast Within. I've been testing surgicals my own self, with fairly decent results but finding room for it is tricky, so I'm not sure if I want to cut anything for a card that doesn't do anything until my opponent has already hosed me once.
I noticed you're rocking Trinishpere in the SB. What are your thoughts so far on it? I'm really enjoying how it messes with the scads of mana-efficient tempo-aggro decks.

[MGB]

You play to survive the first few turns, and then late game you have the biggest bombs you could ever want. It is like a normal control deck, except instead of slamming a 4 mana Jace, you have a 15 mana win the game single card combo.

Most control decks have a myriad of tools which enable them to survive the first few turns - targeted removal such as StP; cheap, efficient board sweepers such as Terminusl creatures that control the ground game such as Batterskull; counterspells such as Force of Will, Spell Pierce, and Counterspell. What does this have outside of Repeal, which is just a cantripping bounce spell, or Crop Rotation->Glacial Chasm, which is terrible card disadvantage for a stalling tactic that can be circumvented with widely played land destruction? Some of these builds will main-deck All is Dust, which is a start, but a slow start.

And then, of course, because the inevitability arrives slowly in this deck - more slowly than most combo decks - what does it have to interact with the stack vs. non-aggro decks? If this decks' ability to control aggro is limited to four cantripping bounce spells and a heavily card-disadvantaged tutor for a land, and maybe a couple of board sweepers, it is even more barren in terms of its ability to control the stack vs. combo decks. The game-plan vs. combo appears to be: lose g1, then sideboard in some Mindbreak Trap and/or Flusterstorm in g2 and g3 and hope it's enough? That might win some matches vs. Storm combo, but it basically leaves you open to any other random combo deck that crops up. And auto-losing g1 to Storm itself does not actually make your Storm matchup as a whole all that spectacular, because even Mindbreak Trap/Flusterstorm will not be enough to stop Storm from stealing 1 of 2 games through that wall of hate.

[Rock Lee]

Most control decks have a myriad of tools which enable them to survive the first few turns - targeted removal such as StP; cheap, efficient board sweepers such as Terminusl creatures that control the ground game such as Batterskull; counterspells such as Force of Will, Spell Pierce, and Counterspell. What does this have outside of Repeal, which is just a cantripping bounce spell, or Crop Rotation->Glacial Chasm, which is terrible card disadvantage for a stalling tactic that can be circumvented with widely played land destruction? Some of these builds will main-deck All is Dust, which is a start, but a slow start.

And then, of course, because the inevitability arrives slowly in this deck - more slowly than most combo decks - what does it have to interact with the stack vs. non-aggro decks? If this decks' ability to control aggro is limited to four cantripping bounce spells and a heavily card-disadvantaged tutor for a land, and maybe a couple of board sweepers, it is even more barren in terms of its ability to control the stack vs. combo decks. The game-plan vs. combo appears to be: lose g1, then sideboard in some Mindbreak Trap and/or Flusterstorm in g2 and g3 and hope it's enough? That might win some matches vs. Storm combo, but it basically leaves you open to any other random combo deck that crops up. And auto-losing g1 to Storm itself does not actually make your Storm matchup as a whole all that spectacular, because even Mindbreak Trap/Flusterstorm will not be enough to stop Storm from stealing 1 of 2 games through that wall of hate.

This all reeks of lack of testing. My duty in this thread isn't to sell people on playing the deck. My role is to answer questions of assertive persons who have questions from their own experience & testing related to the deck.

Your arguments about comparable tempo-countering cards in u/w miracles and this deck are weak at best, shows a complete lack of understanding about how Turbo Eldrazi fights the board, and simply present an outside-looking-in argument. You ignore that this deck's turn 3 play easily negates early tempo loss, and then sideboards exclusively against decks that don't give you until turn three. Please do some testing, less guttural inferencing, and reading of the two threads before placing judgment or lack thereof.

[SBGpinas]

@MGB

Comparing Turbo Eldrazi to control decks like Stoneblade and Miracles is not a sound comparison.

If anything, Turbo Eldrazi should be compared to other ramp-control decks like UR Tron or BG Death Cloud, where you spend the first few turns ramping up, stealing tempo and basically stalling your opponent until you get to your business spells (which in this deck, happens as early as turn 3).

Yes, All is Dust is not the fastest board sweeper in the game, but so isn't Death Cloud, and that was played extensively back in the day. Yes, you don't have a lot of permanent answers, just tempo plays and stall effects, but how is that a bad thing, honestly? Does it really matter in the end when the Flying Spaghetti Monster is eating your opponent and his board alive?

You lose to combo? Yes it's an uphill battle Game 1, but in Game 2 and 3, you board in anywhere between 10-13 cards from your sideboard against them. Yes, they can still steal wins, but in a meta full of decks like Miracles, RUG, Maverick and other tempo/control decks, I'd take my chances.

Bottom line is that this is a meta-choice. If your field is full of storm and aggro, then you should be playing a different deck altogether anyway. Turbo Eldrazi eats Miracles for breakfast, arguably the most popular deck in the format right now. I fail to see why a deck that auto-wins against the most popular deck would be a bad meta call.

[MGB]

@MGB

Comparing Turbo Eldrazi to control decks like Stoneblade and Miracles is not a sound comparison.

If anything, Turbo Eldrazi should be compared to other ramp-control decks like UR Tron or BG Death Cloud, where you spend the first few turns ramping up, stealing tempo and basically stalling your opponent until you get to your business spells (which in this deck, happens as early as turn 3).

Yes, All is Dust is not the fastest board sweeper in the game, but so isn't Death Cloud, and that was played extensively back in the day. Yes, you don't have a lot of permanent answers, just tempo plays and stall effects, but how is that a bad thing, honestly? Does it really matter in the end when the Flying Spaghetti Monster is eating your opponent and his board alive?


All of these decks such as BG Death Cloud and UR Tron that you mentioned thrived in Extended and/or Standard metagames that featured a dearth of versatility and lacked a strong combo presence.

What happened to Death Cloud and Tron when Extended rotated and those deck's pilots sought to transition their decks to Legacy? Other archetypes whose genesis can be traced back to that format later found success in Legacy: look at Aggro-Loam for an example. Death Cloud and Tron were simply too weak and lacking in terms of stack interaction to adequately control the game in a more diverse format.

Tempo plays and stall effects are fine if you are a combo deck. But everyone in here is telling me that this deck begs to be played like a control deck, which makes sense, because if this were played like a combo deck it would be probably the slowest combo deck in the format.




You lose to combo? Yes it's an uphill battle Game 1, but in Game 2 and 3, you board in anywhere between 10-13 cards from your sideboard against them. Yes, they can still steal wins, but in a meta full of decks like Miracles, RUG, Maverick and other tempo/control decks, I'd take my chances.

Bottom line is that this is a meta-choice. If your field is full of storm and aggro, then you should be playing a different deck altogether anyway. Turbo Eldrazi eats Miracles for breakfast, arguably the most popular deck in the format right now. I fail to see why a deck that auto-wins against the most popular deck would be a bad meta call.

Because as popular as Miracles is, it will never be more than a fraction of the metagame. It's not exactly Vengevival or Flash combo. And anyone can build a deck to specifically destroy a certain archetype. What sets aside really viable decks is their ability to dominate multiple tier1 archetypes and provide solid answers to the rest of the metagame without sacrificing the former ability.

[blindspotxxx]

@MGB

It would be great if you can say something useful for the thread and not argue something that is irrelevant and useless. If you don't like the deck don't play it, meanwhile we'll be enjoying our 12-post deck. Thank You very much! In Europe, 12-post has top 1'd and top 8'd the past 2 tournaments which is actually the home of storm decks if you must know.

[Darkenslight]

All of these decks such as BG Death Cloud and UR Tron that you mentioned thrived in Extended and/or Standard metagames that featured a dearth of versatility and lacked a strong combo presence.

What happened to Death Cloud and Tron when Extended rotated and those deck's pilots sought to transition their decks to Legacy? Other archetypes whose genesis can be traced back to that format later found success in Legacy: look at Aggro-Loam for an example. Death Cloud and Tron were simply too weak and lacking in terms of stack interaction to adequately control the game in a more diverse format.

Tempo plays and stall effects are fine if you are a combo deck. But everyone in here is telling me that this deck begs to be played like a control deck, which makes sense, because if this were played like a combo deck it would be probably the slowest combo deck in the format.




Because as popular as Miracles is, it will never be more than a fraction of the metagame. It's not exactly Vengevival or Flash combo. And anyone can build a deck to specifically destroy a certain archetype. What sets aside really viable decks is their ability to dominate multiple tier1 archetypes and provide solid answers to the rest of the metagame without sacrificing the former ability.

Well, to be honest, I think your opinion has very little merit. 12-Post decks have top-16'd at at least three of the last six SCG Opens, has put up enough results in Europe to make it a hatable deck like Maverick and is fairly consistent for a ramp deck in Legacy. Yes, it has some difficult matchups, but it's definitely a viable archetype in a good percentage of metagames. It isn't so much a Control deck as a Synergy deck - most, if not all, of the cards play well together.

[LurkingMatt]

All of these decks such as BG Death Cloud and UR Tron that you mentioned thrived in Extended and/or Standard metagames that featured a dearth of versatility and lacked a strong combo presence.

What happened to Death Cloud and Tron when Extended rotated and those deck's pilots sought to transition their decks to Legacy? Other archetypes whose genesis can be traced back to that format later found success in Legacy: look at Aggro-Loam for an example. Death Cloud and Tron were simply too weak and lacking in terms of stack interaction to adequately control the game in a more diverse format.

Tempo plays and stall effects are fine if you are a combo deck. But everyone in here is telling me that this deck begs to be played like a control deck, which makes sense, because if this were played like a combo deck it would be probably the slowest combo deck in the format.

Because as popular as Miracles is, it will never be more than a fraction of the metagame. It's not exactly Vengevival or Flash combo. And anyone can build a deck to specifically destroy a certain archetype. What sets aside really viable decks is their ability to dominate multiple tier1 archetypes and provide solid answers to the rest of the metagame without sacrificing the former ability.

Thanks for keeping your arguments on the point since this can clearly help improvement and show weaknesses and strengths.
Please add facts to your arguments so this stays on topic?

First of all, thanks for your insights.

Second it seems we all agree to disagree with you about the performance of 12 Post.
While all of us agree with your assessment that there are more critical decision points while playing this deck
as compared to ... RUG, Stoneblade we are aware of this fact and do not agree with the assessment that this
can be relegated to the "power level" of decks but to the learning curve of said decks.
After all - if playing TES/ ANT/ Tide would be so easy - more people would flock to Storm.

If you want to compare "raw power" as you called it you have to check deck synergies and each singular card.
I do understand your point but your statement is very single minded and not really helpful since your point of
few is very specific.

For comparison: Check the Gate, Pox heck even Burn.
Each of those cards can "overpower" most of the other cards played on a 1-1 bases since even most blue spells
are only situational relevant. Still these decks attract only a specific kind of people and only show up as blimps
on the radar because of the low percentage of played decks and their problems with Storm and Rogues.
Do those decks win tourneys? Except from Burn those decks almost never show up unless one is taking an
educated guess on a meta and tries to prey on it. Or has a dedicated followership like 12Post.

I agree that this deck has very few "Wow"-moments while going through the lists.
Same goes for Stormdecks or Mav btw (in my opinion).

While I am currently not a 12Post tournament player (although I extensively test it online and when meeting for testing) I might shed some light here.

Please allow for free quotes (e.g. will keep the spirit of your argument not the wording) If I misread your arguments please let me know.


1. "This deck plays tempo games therefor it is no control deck."
I agree. This is not a control deck but a ramp deck.
Since both play similiarly and most people tend to know control deck, this is a comparison made in an effort to pass along the
style of play rather than the type.
If I (imho) would have to place this deck in any category and wouldn't be allowed to create a new one it
would be placed in the combo/ control[/b] area though.

Reasoning: This deck wins by controlling your opponents board options (other tools, similiar approach) like
UW Miracle (most common tools: Terminus, CB, Clique, StP, counter suite),
UW RiP (most common tools: Poryphyr Node, CB, Detention Sphere, Energy Field, RiP, counter suite)
RUG (most common tools: counter suite, stifle)
BUG (most common tools: discard, counter suite, Decay)
NicFit (Decay, Witness, Deed, Pulse, Vindicate)
.....
12 Post (Elephant Grass, Crop Rotation, Repeal, Chasm, Bog, Needles, All is Dust)

Please note that several of those tools deployed are simple "tempo plays" (Stifle, Node, Clique, SCM) which are deployed to advance your own agenda.

I selected the "combo" approach too since this deck tends to deploy either Eye of Ugin singularly (tutoring it up if no "Old One" care to come on his own)
or with added S&T support. All of this tutoring/ "cheating" are clear indications of combo.
Other decks falling into this category: Tide, UW RiP, Omnishow, Reanimator

If not please clarify the definition?

2. "Inevitability is of no consequence if you are too slow."
Once more I agree.
Since this deck is not being run vs a stonewall on a kitchen table who can't do squat, you need the tools to do the job.
This deck tends to manipulate the boardstate to reach a set goal: deploying Fatso(s) your opponent can't handle.
Tools for the job: Elephant Grass, Drop of Honey, Repeal, Needle, SB.
(Personally I would like to see a recursion engine like Witness/ Repeal/ Tool Land but I can't find the space either)

3. "This is no top tier deck"
As a matter of fact it isn't.
Decks that can't persistently beat the crap out of any other deck on the floor in quantically superior numbers aren't.
Now I know this is awefully close to the definition to DTB but it is a fact. On the other hand, this deck can beat the crap out of any other deck
if given the chance to do it. Also the pilot is/ can be crucial to the victory.
All one needs is
- the tools to do the job (md & sb)
- the will to take on unfavourable match ups (stack based combo)
- a low(er) percentage of variance (then most other decks)

4. "Slowest combo deck in format"
Assuming gold fishes, you might be right that this deck is/ can be considered slow. My avg. "business turn" is around 4/5 (about equally matched, 20 games, not current list).
This sets it on par with various combo decks I tried and played in the past including Painted Stone, various versions of Tide, Enchantress (Lock and Combo).
Checking the current list of DTB, I find one (!) Aggro/ Control-Deck(Goblin) capable of beating this timing - assuming goldfishes again ofc - with a "good" hand.
All ofter tests indicate an avg. turn 5/6+ clock of aggro decks.
Granted I playtest Netlists since I am too bored to sleave up RUG(didn't include NO RUG), BUG(Tempo) or Esperblade (10 games each).

So it seems that - when goldfishing everything is "just in time" ?

5. "This is not on the same power level then other established decks"
Well... yes and no. Let me exaggerate.
I - like most people - used to have a tribal phase (mine being tree huggin' elves!([i]and I am still proud owner of Elves! and NO Elves)).
During this phase we usually realize that we can either play only "good stuff" or use synergies to strengthen "strong stuff" to reach that
power level. What this deck tries to achieve is gaining the edge by deploying "good stuff" and using "strong stuff" to its benefit while staying
inside pre-defined construction margins.
So "yes" this is no "5c goodstuff control"-deck.
"No" because you have a lot of decks playing singular power cards in tandem with "booster cards".

6. "You have a smaller margin of error then DTBs"
*cough* First of all, this isn't a DTB.

It's an established archetype, mostly promoted by singular and driven pilots (anyone care to remember Naz's NO Elves? Bryant's TES ?).
Secondly while I clearly admit that decks like RUG have a lower learning curve I have stumbled with the deck when "it" tried to dictate other
plays then the boardstate would dicate (anecdotal facts), even my current tournament deck (Reanimator) has a smaller margin of error then most
pilot care to admit. Since you are usually given only "one shot" to do it right, the hand, timing and right target selections are crucial (not "only" anecdotal).
This margin of error gets larger, the longer you happen to play a deck since you become more aquainted with it's intricate mechanisms and
design advantages (and flaws) aka getting more experience.


Regards,
Matt

[LurkingMatt]

@MGB

It would be great if you can say something useful for the thread and not argue something that is irrelevant and useless. If you don't like the deck don't play it, meanwhile we'll be enjoying our 12-post deck. Thank You very much! In Europe, 12-post has top 1'd and top 8'd the past 2 tournaments which is actually the home of storm decks if you must know.

Care to eloborate which relevant tournaments where top'ed?

I do not want to contradict you, simply looking for access to your information (URL.s would be most convenient)

Also note that I found some of his arguments(MGBs) quite insightful since he looks at this deck critically and tries to use facts and thus generates progress.
I can transfer some of his feelings (some of Rock's changes feel clanky to me too, so I tend to stick to one or two older lists unless I like the "newer" one)
since this gut feeling is the thing drawing us to specific play styles/ behaviours/ decks.

You being emotional doesn't really help much unless his intentions would be trolling which is generally done less intelligently.

All the best,
Matt

[LurkingMatt]

Well, to be honest, I think your opinion has very little merit. 12-Post decks have top-16'd at at least three of the last six SCG Opens, has put up enough results in Europe to make it a hatable deck like Maverick and is fairly consistent for a ramp deck in Legacy. Yes, it has some difficult matchups, but it's definitely a viable archetype in a good percentage of metagames. It isn't so much a Control deck as a Synergy deck - most, if not all, of the cards play well together.

Actually this deck is currently quite nicely placed in the german meta if you manage to handle those tempo decks.

All you really need is an efficient way to wage war on Storm that is temper proof.
Thus far an older list of Rock's or a newer sideboard with a combination of Flusterstorm and Mind Break Traps are
working wonders (I still dislike the MU though due to "Abdul, the dead Terrorist" aka "Silence!"
and fraggin' discard with perfect information (Thanks to WotC's brainchild Gitaxian Probe) -.- ).

[SBGpinas]

@LurkingMatt

Very well said. I couldn't have said it any better...

And to answer your question, here are 2 recent events in Europe where Turbo Eldrazi won:

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?anno=2&depth=1&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com.ph&sl=es&tl=en&u=http://manainfinito.com/coverage/listas-top8-ell-2012-noviembre&usg=ALkJrhh3CE727FiMQPecjCce-LVZ5yFG8Q

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?anno=2&depth=1&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com.ph&sl=es&tl=en&u=http://manainfinito.com/coverage/listas-top8-ell-2012-octubre&usg=ALkJrhhG_eJXqLRdVLeyuBODE3_rPMpm3g

[r3dd09]

As has been mentioned Ad Nauseam, this is the hardest deck to play in Legacy.

I think you're forgetting about DDFT ;)

[zathe922]

In what kind of meta is Trinket Mage good? I have been thinking of trying -1 Pithing Needle and possibly -1 Expedition Map to add 1-2 Mages to the deck, it would be nice to have a way to search up my Candelabra since i only own 1.
I Know you have tested the card so i would like to know what you think about it.

[Rock Lee]

In what kind of meta is Trinket Mage good? I have been thinking of trying -1 Pithing Needle and possibly -1 Expedition Map to add 1-2 Mages to the deck, it would be nice to have a way to search up my Candelabra since i only own 1.
I Know you have tested the card so i would like to know what you think about it.

One where stifle is not played, which unfortunately means a meta without RUG, one which we are not in at this time. I played Trinket Mage in the deck when Merfolk and stoneblade were everywhere. It was redonko, but once RUG started hopping up, it quickly became a very good way of wasting our turn 3-4 pivotal play and just barely not making it there.

If Junk & Bug becomes big enough, then I'll see Trinket Mage play again. In the current build he would replace Show & Tell's spot, which is a tall order.

[blindspotxxx]

I will link the latest tops of the deck. :) The first two were linked by SBGpinas with Google Translate I prefer the normal website lol

http://manainfinito.com/coverage/listas-top8-ell-2012-noviembre

http://manainfinito.com/coverage/listas-top8-ell-2012-octubre

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50057

and our local December 2, 2012 Major Legacy Event by SBGpinas.

Well I'm not being emotional, this is the 12-post forums and calling the deck not strong enough, doesn't deserve to be in the Established forums and other adjectives requires some reaction. If you must understand try posting as an example on the Maverick forums that their deck is weak and can't compete in the meta anymore. You can check if no one will react lol It thrives on the right meta and one of the few decks which can Kill UW Miracles with little to less problems. The decks to beat are shifting always to the meta on which Legacy shifts on. Archetypes rise and archetypes fall, BUG is back on the map but it has disappeared for a very long time.

[MGB]

I don't mean to denigrate the progress made by all of the play-testers and deck-builders who posted in this thread from its inception.

I am certainly not insinuating that this deck is not capable of competing in high-level tournaments, because clearly, based on recent SCG results, it is most definitely capable of doing so.

I really just want to understand how this deck is as successful as it is. After testing it myself, and analyzing the deck list from a deck-building theory standpoint, I just don't see it. This deck seemingly flouts conventional deck-building wisdom regarding archetypes and strategies that have been established over the course of the game's existence. It is a control deck that uses a combo deck's tempo-based stalling tactics, or a combo deck that tries to control the game without enough widely applicable control tools.

After re-reading the OP in this thread several times, I am still at a loss for a good explanation on the minutiae of the game plan in every match-up. I wish there was a better, more in-depth primer on this deck than the one in the first post. I want to learn how to play this deck against the widely played tier archetypes without feeling as if I am paddling upstream while fighting raging rapids that are pummeling the sides of my canoe.

[blindspotxxx]

I don't mean to denigrate the progress made by all of the play-testers and deck-builders who posted in this thread from its inception.

I am certainly not insinuating that this deck is not capable of competing in high-level tournaments, because clearly, based on recent SCG results, it is most definitely capable of doing so.

I really just want to understand how this deck is as successful as it is. After testing it myself, and analyzing the deck list from a deck-building theory standpoint, I just don't see it. This deck seemingly flouts conventional deck-building wisdom regarding archetypes and strategies that have been established over the course of the game's existence. It is a control deck that uses a combo deck's tempo-based stalling tactics, or a combo deck that tries to control the game without enough widely applicable control tools.

After re-reading the OP in this thread several times, I am still at a loss for a good explanation on the minutiae of the game plan in every match-up. I wish there was a better, more in-depth primer on this deck than the one in the first post. I want to learn how to play this deck against the widely played tier archetypes without feeling as if I am paddling upstream while fighting raging rapids that are pummeling the sides of my canoe.

Ok thanks for explaining :)

The deck is actually complicated based on it's draw. You can have a Show and Tell plan with Primeval Titan which makes you Ramp up really easy to Eldrazzis. Difference with this to other Show and Tell Decks is that Sneak Show has it's weaknesses with regards to Karakas. Omni-tell can easily be sideboarded against with O-ring, Venser, Angel of Despair and etc. If Show and Tell gets countered, you have outs because you can hard play your Fatties.

Or you can have a quick Ramp plan if you draw a lot of Vesuva's and Cloudposts. One repeal tempo play is enough to buy you time for let's say like a turn 4 Ulamog. This deck is hard to disrupt via counters because most of the cards you play are not combo-ish. Most decks don't really pack so much Land Hate which is this decks investment plan. That's the reason it can do well, it's resilient.

I agree on the said weaknesses of the deck. Really tough to beat Storm and you have to play correctly. The thing is you just have to accept the deck's weaknesses and strengths. What's your meta in your place anyway? Tweaking the main deck and sideboard is the only thing we can really do.

[SBGpinas]

How was everyone's testing against the BUG Delver or BUG Control matchup?

Does the Nov. 25 list perform well? Or does Rock's new test list perform better?

[blindspotxxx]

Finished 2nd in a small legacy tournament filled with RUG Delver and BG decks :)

went 3-0-1 we drew the last round and split packs. Got an Overgrown Tomb in it.

I adjusted the main deck again into a 4 show and tell build and the 3rd brainstorm because I think it's better than 2 All is Dust in a RUG Meta. Although didn't face any RUG until the finals which we drew anyway. We played 3 games and I won game 1 and 3 :)

Round 1 - Affinity 2-0 (Double turn 3 show and tell Primetime)
Round 2 - MBA with Green 2-0 (This was a funny game as game 2 I couldn't get anything going except for a turn 8 Glacial Chasm with just one more land because I couldn't draw extra lands. One of them was Wastelanded and my 2 Expedition Maps got Krosan Gripped my Sensei's Top Pithing Needles. Luckily he doesn't draw the Wasteland he needed and died to his Double Bitterblossom and 1 Dark Confidant lol)
Round 3 - Nic Fit 2-0 (Game 1 Hardplay Primeval Titan then Infinite turns. Game 2 dragged along so long as my Eye of Ugin died and he got an Acidic Slime Volrath Stronghold combo going on. I held on with lands and was able to legend rule his phyrexian tower and volrath into an All is Dust. After much shuffling and topping got Emrakul for the win.
Round 4 - (Test) RUG won 2-1

[Xtreme]

Went a very dissapointing 3-4 at our national championship with 100 players

Round 1 against Omnitell:
Lose game one to a shown and told omnisciense into emrakul + griselbrand. Win 2 games on back on Venser and karakas
1-0

Round 2 against BUG
Win game 1 with a hardcast primeval after my show and tell got counter. Lose 2 games after getting hymned, wastelanded and Vendilion Cliqued
1-1

Round 3 against Cascade aggro feat bloodbraid elf and ancestral vision
Dont remember much of this, won 2-1
2-1

Round 4 against MUD (sigh)
Game one he gets a 2nd turn metalworker and plays a lot of big stuff including Karn liberated while I sit with an All is dust in hand. I manage win game 2 but lose again game 3
2-2

Round 5 against Nivmagus combo
Repeal is really good here and so it gets fowed game 1 and surgical extracted game 2, while he beats me with a 10/11 niv-magus elemental on his 3rd turn after random spell + flusterstorm both games. He also sides in Price of Progress
2-3

Round 6 against BUG + natural order
He gets progenitus out but I race it with primeval titan
3-3

Round 7 agianst 5-color zoo
Win game 1, lose game 2-3 to fast beats albeit slowing him down with repeals. This game should have been a win but I was rather tired at that point so I might have made some mistakes.

3-4

So, eventhough I managed to dodge the ANT-decks(whitch I had 8 SB cards for) I also dodged all UW-miracle decks, esper control and junk/maverick decks. The BUG-matchup is not impossible but pretty rough, because Hymn + clique + wasteland is hard to beat. The nivmagus deck had pretty much the nutdraw 2 games in a row, and I think that deck folds to itself and has many bad matchups so its not to much to worry about. The MUD-matchup is terrible as previously has been mentioned.

[Rock Lee]

Went a very dissapointing 3-4 at our national championship with 100 players


Sorry to hear you had a poor showing. I find that beating BUG comes down to keeping stable hands instead of active-hands. I also sideboard weirdly against them. I side out cards like Show & Tell, and just go for increased advantage cards. Their Build also depends hugely.

I have found in testing for BUG to be a positive matchup, but it does require heavy playtesting.

[Rock Lee]

Been testing a build with trinket mages again, to meet halfway my perceived weakness of Pithing Needle, by running less of them, and my desire for more advantage and play.

[Darkenslight]

Been testing a build with trinket mages again, to meet halfway my perceived weakness of Pithing Needle, by running less of them, and my desire for more advantage and play.

What's you bullet package with Trinkets in? Is it as simple as Needle/Chalice/EE/Nihil/Relic?

[blindspotxxx]

Been testing a build with trinket mages again, to meet halfway my perceived weakness of Pithing Needle, by running less of them, and my desire for more advantage and play.

Isn't Trinket Mage a little to slow for Pithing Needles? :)

[Rock Lee]

Isn't Trinket Mage a little to slow for Pithing Needles? :)

Yes. If you only need mages for needles, then by all means just run more needles. Trinket Mage is there to make slow do-nothing hands into incredible monsters.

[sublime love]

Just play miracles if u don't like bug decks, you can play off the top of your deck.
Btw winning games with blind miracles is soo much fun due to the fact you opponent will just rage after about "luck" and "statistics"
Took the POST IT! List to a top 8 of duels yesterday. And time walking is fun. try reknit and spellskite in sb for bug decks. Kite blocks good all day and reknit helps with abrupt and waste. It was a good cards for me.
Don't fallow the "ANT" tooting his horn. Not everything you read is right.
This is a deck you build to suit YOUR play style. Just test a lot. Knowing what hands and how to sb is key to this deck

[blindspotxxx]

So yeah playtested against this guy who knows the decks ins and outs.

Went to a 2-3 Record pre-boarding and a 0-2 after sideboarding.

He had a Goblin Chieftain Build which can really get the damage on. Krenko is also just insane because he can create enough tokens to beat annihilator.

[Rock Lee]

I used to think sublime love was just a troll or always drunk, but now I realize he really is just verging on illiterate. Heinous molestation of the English language aside, be wary of his advice. He did beat me in the swiss of said event, because a Temporal Mastery build has an advantage over a holistic and stronger main only against the mirror. If the meta becomes so saturated where the mirror has to be won, then Temporal Mastery deserves more credit than I have given it in the past.

Until then however, it is a brick against RUG, and simply win-more against too many decks in the meta at the moment, where reactive spells are stronger. This isn't a preference-concept. This is just testing.

More proof of sublime love's trolling/belligerent blindness, suggesting reknit over cards I have suggested in a similar vein in the past like skyshroud blessing. This pilot has been trolling me for years now. Just be aware and choose however your testing see's fit.

[sublime love]

I used to think sublime love was just a troll or always drunk, but now I realize he really is just verging on illiterate. Heinous molestation of the English language aside, be wary of his advice. He did beat me in the swiss of said event, because a Temporal Mastery build has an advantage over a holistic and stronger main only against the mirror. If the meta becomes so saturated where the mirror has to be won, then Temporal Mastery deserves more credit than I have given it in the past.

Until then however, it is a brick against RUG, and simply win-more against too many decks in the meta at the moment, where reactive spells are stronger. This isn't a preference-concept. This is just testing.

More proof of sublime love's trolling/belligerent blindness, suggesting reknit over cards I have suggested in a similar vein in the past like skyshroud blessing. This pilot has been trolling me for years now. Just be aware and choose however your testing see's fit.

typing with a retarded auto correct phone, yup, drunk usually, trolling yes, dyslexic also yes. Sad it took this long to call me out.
I don't test anymore, I just run it. And yes temporal is godly in this deck. Try it with show and tell it's bonkers.
Testing is overrated, it's all situational experience that gets there.
Rug is a 60/40 favor match up. Once in a wile it gets me, I don't mind. It is usually due to a GOOD rug player. Like idk John of Carol who ONLY play rug. The same way you play post.
I troll just to keep u off Mount Olympus, if u did tournament reports of the times you don't get to top, I bet one would start to learn more from that. one usually learns more from mistakes, it's only a mistake if you don't learn from it.

I don't reed this form EVERY day, so I did not see reknit was chatted about. this is a form for LEARNING how to play post. I already know how. I just poke in every now and then.
I read up on other decks I don't know. like 4 color aggro, or nivmagus aggro. Those decks look fun to play

(quote of the day)
'I would agree with you, but then we would both be wrong'

[Davek]

Rock, Sublime love, could you please post both the lists you're currently playing? I'd be curious to see what you took out to make room for trinket mages and their toolbox and how's a turbo eldrazi miracle build. Thanks

[Rock Lee]

Rock, Sublime love, could you please post both the lists you're currently playing? I'd be curious to see what you took out to make room for trinket mages and their toolbox and how's a turbo eldrazi miracle build. Thanks

// Lands
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [B] Tropical Island
2 [ZEN] Island (2)
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [CMD] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm

// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
2 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
3 [US] Show and Tell
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [GP] Repeal
2 [ROE] All Is Dust

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 [PLC] Pongify
SB: 1 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge

Is the list I'm testing currently. As you can see, the only decks I'm going to have issues against are late-game combo that can be stopped by Pithing needle. So Helm or Sneak attack. Of course, at the event I was at two days ago, I faced the only two sneak attack decks in the room and missed top 8 coming in 9th.

For this reason, this build is still theoretical. I only post the list on the front if I know it works.

[noiseweasel]

So in that above iteration, the solo ensnaring bridge comes in for critter filled aggro decks instead of elephant grass? How is that working out against goblins or fish?

[Rock Lee]

So in that above iteration, the solo ensnaring bridge comes in for critter filled aggro decks instead of elephant grass? How is that working out against goblins or fish?

no, in said sideboard, the bridge is there strictly for 5+ power dude decks. Mud, sneaky-show, omni, and the like.

I'm still not solid on the sideboard choice though. I'm alternating between that and this:

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [PLC] Pongify
SB: 1 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast

[SBGpinas]

How were the Trinket Mages in testing? Did they perform as you expected?

[Rock Lee]

How were the Trinket Mages in testing? Did they perform as you expected?

Trinket mage is better now than it has been for almost a year. In a stifle-rich meta, you want to avoid your turn 3-4 play being completely negated for 1 mana. In an abrupt-decay meta though, which at least New England is doused heavily in, Trinket Mage is to be feared. People take it with discard nearly as much as candelabra of tawnos itself, which is great, and not entirely the wrong choice either.

[Masamune]

Does anyone tested Teferi's Response?

[SBGpinas]

Does anyone tested Teferi's Response?

To be frank about it, I don't think Teferi's Response has any place in your 75.

It is a card with an extremely limited use in the deck, as it only possibly stops 2 cards in Legacy - Wasteland and Sinkhole. There aren't enough Pox decks to be significantly worried about Sinkhole, so that leaves only Wasteland as the sole reason to consider this card.

Now, currently, we have the following tools to combat Wasteland strategies:

Crop Rotation (Respond to a Wasteland activation - Sacrifice the targeted land)
Pithing Needle (MB or SB)
Primeval Titan (A resolved PrimeTime renders Wasteland moot)
Candelabra of Tawnos (Enables you to go off with less lands in play)
Show and Tell (In a pinch, lets you cheat your win conditions into play)
Bojuka Bog (To combat Life from the Loam shenanigans that have been popular lately)


As it stands, the above cards should be more than enough to get past Wasteland strategies - barring of course insane RUG hands, but then again, it wouldn't be called "insane" if it was easy to play against.

So personally, I would skip it and never look back.

[Masamune]

To be frank about it, I don't think Teferi's Response has any place in your 75.

It is a card with an extremely limited use in the deck, as it only possibly stops 2 cards in Legacy - Wasteland and Sinkhole. There aren't enough Pox decks to be significantly worried about Sinkhole, so that leaves only Wasteland as the sole reason to consider this card.

Now, currently, we have the following tools to combat Wasteland strategies:

Crop Rotation (Respond to a Wasteland activation - Sacrifice the targeted land)
Pithing Needle (MB or SB)
Primeval Titan (A resolved PrimeTime renders Wasteland moot)
Candelabra of Tawnos (Enables you to go off with less lands in play)
Show and Tell (In a pinch, lets you cheat your win conditions into play)
Bojuka Bog (To combat Life from the Loam shenanigans that have been popular lately)


As it stands, the above cards should be more than enough to get past Wasteland strategies - barring of course insane RUG hands, but then again, it wouldn't be called "insane" if it was easy to play against.

So personally, I would skip it and never look back.

Sorry for that but I desagree. What you are talking about is very relative. First there are some other cards you can find that might destroy lands a.k.a. Vindicate. And even against Wasteland, draw two card is by far the best choice than just sac lands with Rotation instead.
My opinion is:
Crop Rotation - Is good but is counterable and sacrificing lands to pay the cost still screw when couldn't be resolve
Pithing Needle - prevents wastes but not spells and you can't draw anything comparing with Tef. Resp.
Primeval Titan - this monster isnt's a reason to prevent land destruction but a way to win games in late game
Candelabra of Tawnos - Isn't a prevention but acceleration
Show and Tell - maybe the best choice because is slight faster than Candelabra
Bojuka Bog - does nothing against wastes byitself and spells

Even mainly against only Wastelands worth it a playtest. Draw two cards is very strong.

[theillest]

Teferi's Response was awesome. It shines against rishidan port, which hasn't been mentioned yet. I think stifle would be better vs wasteland if you're that worried about it. Plus stifle has broader applications. I don't think you want to land-go your turn two to keep mana open for response. That's if you weren't wasted t1. And after t3-4, their wastes are likely too late.

[Raystar]

Hello guys,

I managed to land another T8 last sunday at a 45 people tournament.

The matchups details are a bit lost to me but I can say that the deck served me well (again). I was playing the solid list with one candelabra with a weird experimental sideboard:


1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Flusterstorm
3 Divert
3 In the Eye of Chaos
2 Beast Within
2 Venser, Shaper Savant


I didn't encounter any combo deck and couldn't, thus, verify my testing on the field. Please feel free to bash my sideboard selection :) Highlight for the day is having the chance to meet a foreigner Sourcer that was visiting Rome and decided to stop by to play in the tournament (hello Tomas!!)

Best play move of the day has been the Divert on an Hymn to Tourach during my 3rd match...not a very happy opponent after that :)

I lost in the first turn of T8 against a very very very skilled opponent after winning the first round and punting brutally (I won't tell you what I did because I'm ashamed of myself ;) ) on a play that could have brought me the match

I'm testing a new build incorporating 4 Noble Hierarcs in the place of 1 Brainstorm, 1 Repeal, 1 Expedition Map and 1 Pithing Needle. In addition I'm thinking to swap one of the Tropical Island for a basic forest.

My thinking for the experiment is:

- having quick access to coloured mana to accelerate towards an expedition map or a S&T
- stabilize the coloured mana base to avoid denial and/or mana screw
- accelerate titan by one turn or more
- facilitating double coloured choices in the sideboard

At the moment it seems that the testing is not detrimental to the game plan, I'm not sure if it improves it that much but the jury is still out... :)

[Hanzalot]

@Rock Lee – thank you very much for your work on this deck. I’ve enjoyed playing it very much in the last months and have been reading this thread and the old one with much delight.

I started playing a GR variant with Burning Wishes some months ago and then changed to your UG version after your Starcitygames showing. This is the list I’m playing right now:

Artifacts
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei's Divining Top

Creatures
4 Primeval Titan

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
4 Repeal

Legendary Creatures
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

Sorceries
1 All is Dust
3 Show and Tell

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Island

Lands
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Cloudpost
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Glimmerpost
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
4 Vesuva

Legendary Lands
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas

Sideboard:
2 Spellskite
3 Elephant Grass
1 Sylvan Library
3 Krosan Grip
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 All is Dust
1 Show and Tell
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Maze of Ith

The lone, but searchable All is Dust has served me very well (edit: my mistake, it isn't searchable...). The only thing I’m thinking of changing in the MD is 1 Pithing Needle or 1 Expedition Map to 1 Trinket Mage.

Regarding the sideboard, I have the luxury of not having to prepare for any combo decks since I’m mainly up against RUG Delver, Esper Stoneblade, Maverick and Prison style Enchantress. With that metagame in mind are there any changes you would suggest for my sideboard?

Maze of Ith and Cavern of Souls are two cards I’ve also noticed pop up in other lists from time to time so I would like to hear your as well as other people on this thread's experiences with them?

The Maze of Ith has served me pretty well and Vesuva’ing one can stall a lot of decks long enough. I've also found it a useful trick to be able to untap Titan so that I still get the lands while keeping it ready to block next turn (or avoid it being blocked by a bigger blocker if that’s the case).

Cavern of Souls is a little experimental. Uncounterable Titans should be very strong but perhaps it is too narrow a use.

Oh, and the Pongifys in your latest board – are they just for Griselbrand et al or am I missing something?

Thanks again – and let’s keep this great thread going.
Hans

[SBGpinas]

@Hanzalot

When you say that the lone All is Dust is searchable, you mean you dig for it with Top, correct?

Just making sure you're not thinking of Eye of Ugin, because only the cost-reduction effect works with All is Dust. The search effect can only be used on colorless creature cards (because I made the same mistake before :tongue:)

@Masamune

I've tried Teferi's Response in lieu of a few copies of Crop Rotation and Pithing Needle in a few games in Cockatrice, and based on my experience, I very rarely am able to draw cards with it. In the very rare occasions that I was able to draw cards with it, I drew it in multiples (I played around with a list containing 3 copies of this card) with the extra copies stuck in my hand the rest of the game.

Most of the time, I never even see it, or draw into it too late, or don't have enough blue sources to cast it, and still win a good percentage of the time anyway, in spite of Wastelands and Ports.

You're right I missed Vindicate, but in our meta, Junk and Deadguy Ale are practically in-existent, while Esper runs very few of copies of it (which is immaterial, because Esper is pretty much a bye 70% of the time).

Based on my experience, Teferi's Response is too janky for my taste. It's cool when you get it to work, but you don't really lose anything by not using it.

[blindspotxxx]

How are you searching All is Dust? Am I missing something? lol

[Hanzalot]

@Hanzalot

When you say that the lone All is Dust is searchable, you mean you dig for it with Top, correct?

Just making sure you're not thinking of Eye of Ugin, because only the cost-reduction effect works with All is Dust. The search effect can only be used on colorless creature cards (because I made the same mistake before :tongue:)


Argh - but I'm glad I'm not the only one. I even got it from an article somewhere since originally I didn't "know" you could do it :). I must have misunderstood it. Well, then I'll probably make room for one more MD.

Thanks for correcting me!

Hans