[Deck] Jund

[largebrandon]

Moderator's note: Check out page 3 for the currently-in-the-works Jund primer!

I've thrown together a JUND list, and have been testing on MTGO all week with decent results. The list is heavily influenced by the modern list, but is still equally as strong. Deathrite shaman is probably the MVP of the deck, and is very powerful, so i'm actually happy to cascade into it

JUND

4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness

2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Hymn to Tourach

3 Lilliana of the Veil
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Sylvan Library

8 Fetches
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Lavaclaw Reaches (or a manland of your choice)
3 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain

SB options:
Forked Bolt
Jitte
Thoughtseize
Inquisition
Maelstrom Pulse
Thrunn, the last troll
Choke
pyroclasm
pyroblast/REB
Ancient Grudge
Life from the Loam
Grafdigger's cage
Kitchen Finks

[Greenpoe]

Looks like you forgot GSZ because there's 1 Witness/1 Finks. I would go -1 Library, -1 Pulse, +2 Hymn. Hymn is just too good for an deck that wants to win in the early game like Jund, thus Hymn should be a 4-of, and Waste as well.

[largebrandon]

GSZ has no synergy with BBE, so it seems like it'd be pointless.

[Cellar Door]

Congrats on your showing at SCGSTL.

After playing in a large event, what are your thoughts on the deck? Is it a strong contender? What match ups did you feel strong in? Weak in? Are there any immediate changes you would make to the deck?

I've been playing Jund in Modern for some time now and seeing your results in Legacy makes me want to port it over, so I would be very curious to hear your thoughts on it now.

[mini1337s]

I've thrown together a JUND list, and have been testing on MTGO all week with decent results. The list is heavily influenced by the modern list, but is still equally as strong. Deathrite shaman is probably the MVP of the deck, and is very powerful, so i'm actually happy to cascade into it

JUND

4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness

2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Hymn to Tourach

3 Lilliana of the Veil
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Sylvan Library

8 Fetches
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Lavaclaw Reaches (or a manland of your choice)
3 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain

SB options:
Forked Bolt
Jitte
Thoughtseize
Inquisition
Maelstrom Pulse
Thrunn, the last troll
Choke
pyroclasm
pyroblast/REB
Ancient Grudge
Life from the Loam
Grafdigger's cage
Kitchen Finks
I feel like this deck wants to abuse Kitchen Finks and Cabal Therapy in the maindeck. Do you need the pin-pointed discard? Mitigating some of the lifeloss from Bob and Sylvan seems clutch (with Finks), and recurrable discard seems powerful.

[Kich867]

I'd really like this deck to become a thing. I'm a huge proponent of Jund and I believe that Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay push this archetype into viability for sure. Jund now has the most flexible answers to all permanents (I mean, what is Abrupt Decay if not a 2 mana "Counter target permanent spell with casting cost 3 or less"?) and can attack non permanents heavily while in-hand.

I have a few issues with your list, some of them are kind of tough decisions. Bloodbraid Elf and Dark Confidant could be painful. However, Bloodbraid elf in the proper list has virtually no downside beside costing a bit, and Deathrite Shaman helps with that (I'd almost recommend running a 1-of bird similar to Maverick to really ensure that turn 1 flexible accelerant). I like the Modern focus of aiming for a lot of two-for-one's (Bloodbraid, Pulse, Liliana over time, hymn) and disruptive angles (Deathrite Shaman for instance), but there are some choices I would do away with.

Finks and E-Witness push your curve up needlessly, these cards aren't doing a ton for you that Deathrite Shaman doesn't do or Bob doesn't do etc. They're poor beaters as well. I am also not a huge fan of Sylvan Library here, though maybe a 1-of is fine. a 3/1 split of Sensei's Top and Sylvan is probably fine, you want to minimize your bob damage.

I'm actually really torn on the inclusion of Liliana. On one hand, she's annoying to play against and can, occasionally, just lock a game down for good. But the card disadvantage of her +1 feels too harsh in a deck that has no means of replenishing cards outside of Bob. You'll be topdecking very quickly, and I feel the main focus of Jund is that every card in the deck is a powerhouse, you don't want to discard anything because everything is so good. You don't want to discard removal because it's flexible, bolts because it can close the gap, any of your creatures because they're all good, land because you need to hit your 4 drop, maybe discard late game but then you might as well just cast it and choose for them.

I'm up in the air on her, but I'm not sure I want her in my list.

I think the finks, witness, volrath's stronghold, can all go. They're very cutesy and unreliable, poor top decks. In a deck where you're looking at a lot of double blacks, R/G's, you're going to want fetches or duals hitting your hand, not volrath's. I also feel, somewhat, that Thoughtseize is a poor choice. It's flexibility is always great, but the lifeloss on top of fetches and Bob's--I never feel like running Thoughtseize / Bob / Fetches together is a good idea, you're killing yourself too quickly. Deathrite won't counteract -all- of that, especially not with the 3 and 4 drops occasionally hitting you in the dome.

The manland can probably go as well, maybe this guy did a ton of work for you, but he seems very bad. However, I will test the one-of manland and see how it goes. I just hesitate to be a turn behind in a deck like this that really wants to go something like: Disruption/Acceleration/Card quality turn 1 > Beater / Bob / Kill enormous threat turn 2 > Bloodbraid into face destruction turn 3.

[Bryant Cook]

Cook’s Kitchen – NELC (11/03/2012): JUND (http://jupitergames.info/articles/2012/51978/cooks-kitchen-nelc-11032012-jund)

[Tinefol]

http://mymagic.ru/services/decklists/legacy/191012-legacy.html

Built that list for local tournaments (it went 4-0, 3-1 and 4-0). Seems to work fine, though sideboard needs some tuning against combo. Pfires are absolutely awesome in grindy matches, just run them. Synergistic with Liliana as well.

[largebrandon]

Just as an update, I ended up 24th place with a 5-2-1 record.

Here's the decklist i ended up with: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50519

The only regret I have is playing the 3 maindeck wastelands. They should either be duals, basics, manlands or a combination of the 3.

[Apollo]

Ya wastelands are a stretch when your trying to curve out on BBElf. I've been testing the deck and its a fun one. I didnt see any tops in your list I'd def like to include some. I think the Witness should go too, and I'd prob run a max of two Lilly. I really wouldn't mind running 1 more Ooze, when you BBelf into that guy or just plain cast him he just turns out to be awesome and with no GSZ I really want better chances of getting him

[Kich867]

Ya wastelands are a stretch when your trying to curve out on BBElf. I've been testing the deck and its a fun one. I didnt see any tops in your list I'd def like to include some. I think the Witness should go too, and I'd prob run a max of two Lilly. I really wouldn't mind running 1 more Ooze, when you BBelf into that guy or just plain cast him he just turns out to be awesome and with no GSZ I really want better chances of getting him

I think Jund was well described by an SCG commentator recently, it was in reference to standard but it applies to legacy as well: "Jund is a deck that wants to play one card a turn and hope their card is better than your card." In legacy this is a little bit easier to accomplish. Jund's goals first and foremost should be playing the most powerful cards it can at each casting cost in each of it's colors.

I honestly don't believe Sensei's Divining Top fits into this gameplan. It permanently sets you a turn behind of your curve--control decks and grindy decks don't really care about this, they plan on going the long game anyways. Jund wants to be curving out hard or even accelerating that curve. I mean you really just have to go down the list of 1 drops the deck is running and ask which you'd rather play on turn one. I would much rather play a Deathrite Shaman or a Thoughtseize / Inquisition on turn 1 than Top in this sort of deck. Bryant Cook makes a good point in his article, top doesn't fit in decks that intend to use all of it's mana each turn.

[Mr. Safety]

Wastelands aren't a stretch when you're using Deathrite Shaman...effortless synergy to get you to 4 mana in time to matter for BBE, even when shooting off a Wasteland.

Life from the Loam, at least x1, is pretty good at giving you a mana advantage as well.

[capitacom]

I've been testing this deck, and I've really been liking it. Wastelands are unnecessary, but I think treetop village is very good in here. Other option is using groves and playing fires in the sideboard. If you want more than 16 creatures I think scavenging ooze is the best card for the slot.

I haven't really liked top as it is slow and you generally don't have much manes leftover. I also think the deck needs at least two pulses in the main / side to deal with cards like humility, moat, jace and elspeth.

[Kich867]

Been testing this deck lately, Cooks list minus wastelands. I might run two just to deal with maze/chasm. So far im loving it. Liliana has been better than expected. Every hand feels like the nuts with this deck.. Wastes definitely aren't necessary and top really doesn't have a place here, that's for damn sure. I've been really loving asking myself: do I want to drop bob and goyf this turn or roll the dice on bbe? Jitte performs insanely well and rounds out the decks ability to withstand its own fetches/bobs/thoughtseizes with 8 cards that gain us life.

[Vilhis]

Caled Durwald has some ideas for Lagecy Jund in his latest article (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-izzet-week-or-deathrite-shaman-my-new-love/).

Destructive Flow is definitely something to consider.

[toor]

My friend played our Modern jund deck in the legacy side event at GP Chicago. He went 5-1.

Was thinking about cutting BBE for GSZ. Local tournament for 3 shops so I am inclined to brew:

2 Badlands
1 Bayou
3 Grove of the Burnwillow
2 Twilight Mire
2 Treetop Village
9 Fetches
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

4 GSZ
1 E Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
3 Goyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dark Confidant

1 Chrome mox
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library
6 Thoughtseize/IoK
2 Hymn
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Pulse
3 Liliana
3 Punishing Fire

SB:
1 Teeg
1 Jitte
3/4 REB
1 Decay
1 Dread of Night/Virtue's Ruin

The rest is up in the air (Second Ooze, grudge, choke, bb, deeds, thrun). Any thoughts? Is BBE cuttable? I play the deck in modern a lot and it comes out against most combo matchups, so I figured it might be a reasonable cut in legacy (where the format is less grindy by nature).

[Hapless Researcher]

I think Jund was well described by an SCG commentator recently, it was in reference to standard but it applies to legacy as well: "Jund is a deck that wants to play one card a turn and hope their card is better than your card."

This is basically true. Let's look at our options:

Xcmc:
Engineered Explosives
Chalice of the Void
Green Sun's Zenith

1cmc:
Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kosilek
Deathrite Shaman
Lightning Bolt
Ghastly Demise
Darkblast
Chain Lightning
REB
Dread of Night
Extirpate/Surgical Extraction
Sylvan Safekeeper

2cmc:
Tarmogoyf
Dark Confidant
Scavenging Ooze
Bitterblossom
Sylvan Library
Abrupt Decay
Boom/Bust
Rough/Tumble
Hymn to Tourach
Terminate
Umezawa's Jitte
Viridian Zealot
Life from the Loam
Ancient Grudge

3cmc:
Liliana of the Veil
Kitchen Finks
Eternal Witness
Pernicious Deed
Maelstrom Pulse
Sword of Metagame and Value
Virtue's Ruin/Nature's Ruin
Krosan Grip

4cmc:
Damnation
BBE
Huntmaster of the Fells (?)
Mindbreak Trap

Utility Lands:
Lavaclaw Reaches
Raging Ravine
Treetop Village
Volrath's Stronghold
Wasteland

The good thing about BBE is that he makes Jace decks worse. We need to figure out a more satisfactory plan against combo though.

This is just a quick list, so feel free to mention any cards that might have been overlooked.

[Barook]

Caled Durwald has some ideas for Lagecy Jund in his latest article (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-izzet-week-or-deathrite-shaman-my-new-love/).

Destructive Flow is definitely something to consider.
I'm a huge fan of Destructive Flow and this list seems pretty cool.

But why Chrome Mox? That seems quite counterproductive. BoP does basically the same thing (unless you want a T1 Bob which takes an extra turn to counter the card disadvantage or a T1 Goyf - both are nonsense), could be fed to Therapy if you run it and it can carry Swords.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Chrome Mox (and BOP honestly) are REALLY BAD ideas in a deck with BBE. Cascading into either of those cards is basically the worst thing ever (cascading into BOP lost me games in STANDARD, much less a fast format like Legacy). Deathrite Shaman is a mediocre cascade as well, but at least it does things other than tap for mana.

[Hapless Researcher]

Chrome Mox (and BOP honestly) are REALLY BAD ideas in a deck with BBE. Cascading into either of those cards is basically the worst thing ever (cascading into BOP lost me games in STANDARD, much less a fast format like Legacy). Deathrite Shaman is a mediocre cascade as well, but at least it does things other than tap for mana.

3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
4 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Sylvan Library
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Bayou
3 Badlands
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Wasteland
SB: 2 Rough // Tumble
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Viridian Zealot
SB: 1 Life from the Loam

I've been running this list in testing, and it has a lot of game vs combo. I chose the suboptimal Zealot in the board because it combines well with the Stronghold to produce added utility. I considered man lands, but I just don't think they're strong enough to hand with the threats in this format. I don't feel like turning one of my opponent's Knights into a Stone Rain.

[toor]

57 PLayer Tournament. 1k+ prizes. I got 2nd (refused to split in t4 and t2).

4 BBE
4 Dark Confidant
4 Goyf
4 Deathrite
1 Scavenging Ooze

2 Sylvan Library
2 Jitte
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Pulse

2 Treetop Village
2 Twilight Mire
1 G/B/R
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
10 Fetch
1 Taiga

SB:
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Deed
2 REB
1 Choke
2 Dread of night
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Ancient Grudge

Losses (RUG, Burn)
Wins (RUGx2, Esperblade, UW RIP, Goblins, Dredge, Storm)

Brief Comments:
Deck is fine but not great. I cut the p-fires because they make your mana worse and bolt is important against RUG. So I went back to BBE over Zenith to help fight Jace. BBE was terrible in every non UW matchup. RUG matchup is close, and I can't imagine its remotely winnable if you are playing wastelands. Basically wastelands are great against every deck that isn't attacking your mana. But you have worse mana then all the other wastelands decks. Sylvan has a nice synergy with Jitte and Deathrite in theory, but never really got them going in reality. Sylvan did set up some really nice BBE and save life with DC. I think I would start a raging ravine over a BBE or Jitte/Library.

SB was terrible. I was way over prepared for UW variants (which basically felt like a bye). I would cut Grudge, Choke, Garruk for other cards. Deed and Dread night also underperformed but that may have been due to matchups.

[Tinefol]

My take on jund recently has top8ed a 90players tournament (5-0-2 swiss), losing to maverick in quarters due to some misplays.

4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
2 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf

3 Punishing Fire
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard
2 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Krosan Grip
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge

[largebrandon]

I'm not quite sure why people are playing Punishing fire and Jitte. The deck is already super freaking good against the fair decks you are using those against, why waste slots for a diminished value?

[Cryoclasm]

My take on jund recently has top8ed a 90players tournament (5-0-2 swiss), losing to maverick in quarters due to some misplays.

4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
2 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf

3 Punishing Fire
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard
2 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Krosan Grip
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge

How about
+2 Scavenging Ooze
-1 BBE
-1 Tarmogoyf

[Hapless Researcher]

I'm not quite sure why people are playing Punishing fire and Jitte. The deck is already super freaking good against the fair decks you are using those against, why waste slots for a diminished value?

I would agree. May I ask what you thought of my build on the previous page? It is built to fight combo/control.

[Kich867]

I'm not quite sure why people are playing Punishing fire and Jitte. The deck is already super freaking good against the fair decks you are using those against, why waste slots for a diminished value?

Punishing Fire doesn't really make any sense, Jund is operating in a "I want to curve out perfectly and kill you", it's not looking to grind and it shouldn't be, it's literally all 3 aggressive colors crammed into a deck. It has the most flexible removal, hand disruption, aggressive creatures in the format available to it.

Jitte on the other hand, is just an absolute beating. It can be cascaded into, it doesn't occupy a huge slot in the deck, but finding it is a stomping.

The thing I like most about Jund is that pretty much every spell is a must-counter, every threat is a must-kill. Dropping in Jitte is just another huge hurdle for people to overcome--can't stick a goyf or bob? You can probably stick a shaman and beat them to death with it.

I really don't agree with the manland plan, this wreaks too much of modern where the only reason their run is that people hit 6-7+ lands regularly in the format. More solid, more consistent mana base is the way to go. Jund wants bombs at every casting cost, every card in the deck should make people go "Ugh..." Manlands and punishing fire aren't very intimidating. Wasting a man-land is a huge tempo swing and punishing fire engine is a grindy, grindy engine. You don't want to do anything that would slow you down.

[largebrandon]

I would agree. May I ask what you thought of my build on the previous page? It is built to fight combo/control.

Having less than 4 deathrite shaman is just completely wrong. There isn't a matchup where you don't want it; it is the best card in the deck.

Wastelands are something I no longer want in the deck. You really don't want to lose lands if you can help it, and the mana is very restrictive. Instead, play a manland or two. Whilst coming into play tapped seems bad, it's a good mana sink later on.

As far as jitte, I haven't played it in the deck so I'm not sure how good it is, but It seems good enough.

[toor]

I'm not quite sure why people are playing Punishing fire and Jitte. The deck is already super freaking good against the fair decks you are using those against, why waste slots for a diminished value?

I basically disagree with almost everything you guys are saying. There are tons of fair decks where Jund doesn't have a huge edge.

1) We need more lands to operate and thus have to play more lands. When you play more lands then your opposing fair opponent, you need to either have lands that do things or 2-for-1s. Otherwise you run out of gas. Bloodbraid Elf is only a two for one if a 3/2 has is good against the opposing deck. He is exceptional against fair blue decks, but against things like goblins or maverick a generic 3/2 is more irrelevant. Jitte makes him better and gives you a trump against fair creature strategies (none of your other cards are this). Man Lands/Waste Lands are another way to mitigate the fact that we play more lands. Since our lands end up doing something. Given our use of Jitte and dependency on colored mana I think Man Lands > wastelands. If you play 23 lands, with 3-4 wastelands and are beating RUG then they are just bad players. If all you care about is combo, then wasteland is obviously better.

P-Fire is an alternative way to beat fair decks if you don't want to rely on Jitte. Its also obv very good against blue decks (but if u play BBE, probably not necessary).

2) "Not looking to grind". This is exactly what we are looking to do. If you want to curve out and kill someone you are not playing the right deck. You are also not playing this deck right. Just because we can have aggressive draws, doesn't mean we pigeonhole ourselves as an aggressive strategies. Liliana and BBE are two of grindiest cards possible. And we are trying to maximize them.

-----------
Jund's Strengths:
a) Best discard deck. If discard is good in the format then this is a good place to play it.
b) Good at fighting fair blue decks.
c) Good at grinding out aggressive tempo decks.

[Tinefol]

I'd have to wholeheartedly agree there.

BBE is not quite enough against blue decks (though its good!). You're certainly losing some games to JTMS if you don't run Pfires - its not too uncommon, even with BBE. If you do, however, they're never getting there. Same can be told about games against creature decks, like Maverick or Goblins. You really want these Jittes or Pfires. This deck is absolutely about grinding in most matches, except for combo.

[catmint]

I like new decks and a versatile format, but I feel Jund does not really have space in legacy (except aggro loam).

If I look at this deck (which is obviously strong and can put up results) I have to ask myself a couple of questions:

1) Playing Red over Blue?
Bolt, punishing fire, bloodbraind elf versus. potentially Brainstorm, Snapcaster, Clique, FoW, Jace,…

2) If I want to play with cascade and have an edge over fair decks why not play waterfalls (RUGb cascade).?
I feel this has a better combo matchup + is more unfair against fair decks. I rather have Ancestral than punishing fire against blue decks. ;)

Or for “not blue”:

3) Playing Red over White?
Knight of the Reliquary, SFM, Thalia, Swords to plowshares – again I see this cards have more potential than what red offers.

4) Nic Fit
In Nic Fit you can play any third color along BG and if you aim to grind out games and win fair matches there is nothing like it…

I am curious how you justify playing jund over all the listed decks. In my opinion Deathrite & Abrupt decay make GB a lot more attractive and really influence the meta, but not all deathrite decks will become/remain tier decks.

[wcm8]

Comparing Jund to Waterfalls (RUGb Cascade): I think Jund would be a slightly better choice in a known meta that has little or NO combo and more control and aggro. Dark Confidant is really amazing, as is Liliana of the Veil. The decks play a similar style of generating massive card advantage, but I do agree that Blue is generally just better thanks to Brainstorm, Ancestral Visions, Shardless Agent, Vendilion Clique and Force of Will.

I've actually played Waterfalls against Jund online, and the matchup seemed very close and often came down to who had better topdecks and cascades. I was able to pull out a 2-1 victory, but I could see it going either way.

[lordofthepit]

I like new decks and a versatile format, but I feel Jund does not really have space in legacy (except aggro loam).

If I look at this deck (which is obviously strong and can put up results) I have to ask myself a couple of questions:

1) Playing Red over Blue?
Bolt, punishing fire, bloodbraind elf versus. potentially Brainstorm, Snapcaster, Clique, FoW, Jace,…

2) If I want to play with cascade and have an edge over fair decks why not play waterfalls (RUGb cascade).?
I feel this has a better combo matchup + is more unfair against fair decks. I rather have Ancestral than punishing fire against blue decks. ;)

Or for “not blue”:

3) Playing Red over White?
Knight of the Reliquary, SFM, Thalia, Swords to plowshares – again I see this cards have more potential than what red offers.

4) Nic Fit
In Nic Fit you can play any third color along BG and if you aim to grind out games and win fair matches there is nothing like it…

I am curious how you justify playing jund over all the listed decks. In my opinion Deathrite & Abrupt decay make GB a lot more attractive and really influence the meta, but not all deathrite decks will become/remain tier decks.

I think Jund is a metagame call, but if you're in a fair meta, Punishing Fire is absolutely gross and is a huge draw for red, even if underappreciated. It's pretty weak against combo, and it's not the best against Counterbalance or Rest in Peace, but Abrupt Decay solves those problems pretty nicely. More importantly, not only does it help against small creatures, but it takes care of opposing planeswalkers with no questions asked.

Once I came into grips with the fact that Deathrite Shaman is a real Legacy card (contrary to my initial expectations), I actually thought it would be pretty cool to build a Jund deck to take advantage of the new Return to Ravnica tools and to combine them with Punishing Fire. I ended up stumbling into this thread, and I'm not surprised at all to see Tinefol (whose deckbuilding skills I respect a lot) already came up with a successful brew.

Do I think red is better than blue or white in a vacuum? Hell no. But if you're going to make a metagame call to go into red, I believe that (and I know this will be controversial) Punishing Fire is the best thing red provides for a midrange strategy.

[Vilhis]

Jund finished 14th place at Baltimore: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51272

List seems pretty solid.

[KennyMayer]

Jund finished 14th place at Baltimore: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51272

List seems pretty solid.

Thanks. I got a lot of ideas for the deck from this thread, so that was pretty helpful. Deck was really good and if I didn't make a loose keep or two in round two and if I properly played around Stifle in round seven I think I could have gone pretty deep with it. I didn't really feel outclassed in any matchup and all the cards are pretty strong individually. I played at a reasonably soft local event last night and it held up pretty nicely there as well (4-0, 8-0). I'm trying one less Scavaging Ooze for the miser Sylvan Library to see how that feels in the deck (also the random Twilight Mire I just made the 3rd Bayou since I stopped trying to be "cute" for Treetop+Liliana/Hymn hands).

[largebrandon]

Thanks. I got a lot of ideas for the deck from this thread, so that was pretty helpful. Deck was really good and if I didn't make a loose keep or two in round two and if I properly played around Stifle in round seven I think I could have gone pretty deep with it. I didn't really feel outclassed in any matchup and all the cards are pretty strong individually. I played at a reasonably soft local event last night and it held up pretty nicely there as well (4-0, 8-0). I'm trying one less Scavaging Ooze for the miser Sylvan Library to see how that feels in the deck (also the random Twilight Mire I just made the 3rd Bayou since I stopped trying to be "cute" for Treetop+Liliana/Hymn hands).

You're welcome ;)

[semioldguy]

Thanks Brandon for the initial list. I usually play decks that durdle around in the graveyard for value, but I don't like that place in the metagame right now and was looking for something else to try.

I took Jund to 11th place in SCG Vegas (and saw that someone else placed 12th). I lost the last round playing for top eight since I had the worst X-1 breakers and couldn't draw in, though the deck felt very strong and I made mistakes that cost me some games and at least one of my two match losses.

Quick rundown of my tournament:

Round 1 - Goblins
I definitely should have lost this round, he had nut-draws the first two games but overextended into an on-board deed when he didn't need to and then never got back into the game.
(1-0)

Round 2 - Miracles w/ Helm/RiP
This match-up didn't feel difficult at all. I lost one of the games to a topdeck, but if you hold back an Abrupt Decay it feels like you can't lose since they can't answer everything and so much of what you're doing generates card advantage.
(2-0)

Round 3 - RUG Delver
Game one I won convincingly, while game two I met three Stifles and two Wasteland and died with no lands in play. I punted the third game. I had a 3/3 Ooze with five lands and an Abrupt Decay, Pyroblast and Umezawa's Jitte in hand. My opponent had a 3/4 Tarmogoyf and a nimble Mongoose with 10+ cards in his graveyard, but only one creature between the graveyards. I am on 10 life and he had been keeping a Volcanic open every turn and I am certain he has a Lightning Bolt in hand (he did). I played Jitte, leaving three open. At the end of my turn he submerges my Ooze, which I counter with Pyroblast. What I should have done was attempt to exile the one creature with Ooze, and if he Bolted it in response I could Decay his Tarmogoyf and Exile that to let Ooze survive the bolt and likely secure the game by playing and equipping Jitte the following turn. Instead i lost a couple turns later as i only drew a Deathrite Shaman and some lands, which didn't quite buy me enough time with Jitte to come back.
(2-1)

Round 4 - Junk
I won pretty handily in games one and three. the second game I should have mulliganed. It was a one land hand with a Deathrite Shaman. His discard tore my hand apart, and by the time i drew a second land it was both too late and the first had been Wastelanded away. I don't know if it was just mismatched draws, but it didn't feel very close in the other two games.
(3-1)

Round 5 - Elves Combo
I lost the first game to an Ezuri with a ton of mana on the fourth or fifth turn. The second game I Pernicious Deeded his board away and the third game Surgical Extraction kept him from being able to combo off, we both just drew lands from there and since my creatures on board were bigger than his, I won.
(4-1)

Round 6 - UB w/ Death's Shadow
From the two games I seemed like the match-up was favorable. All the creatures die to Abrupt Decay and all the card advantage eventually wins the game. The second game played out similarly, though I imagine Pernicious Deed is pretty good against a one-drop deck.
(5-1)

Round 7 - UWB Stoneblade
Game three was played under the camera, so you can watch me forget to gain life before the first Bob trigger and then remember before the second trigger before flipping Bloodbraid and going to 1. The match-up felt good. I lost a game to a triple Stoneforge hand and just got out card advantaged. The seems like a corner case though. Aside from Stoneforges most of Jund's plays are more powerful than what they are doing. Pretty much it felt that against any blue deck, once I eventually could get something to stick, it would just keep slowly pulling me ahead until I won.
(6-1)

Round 8 - Elves Combo
This was under the camera. In the second game I had plenty of outs, but got plinked to death by a small squadron of elves (I'll probably re-watch that game to evaluate what I might have done differently).

Game three I made a few errors that likely cost me the game (I also had plenty of outs to just win, and never saw any of them). First, which I didn't realize until later in the game due to inexperience with the deck, I should have been removing my own cards with Deathrite Shaman before removing his cards. By keeping his cards around I could have potentially been playing to a couple more outs in Surgical Extraction and Extirpate. Had I drawn either it was possible I could have kept him from combo-ing off. It never came up, but it was something that occurred to me after the match.

The other mistake I made I just simply missed a line of play that would have given me another chance at finding an out (long tournaments mentally fatigue me). on my last turn after bob revealed Pyroclasm, I looked at the top three cards with library and saw a Bloodbraid Elf and two lands, I took the elf and put the other two back as I had a fetchland in hand. I don't recall what I played from my hand that turn, it was an extra blocker/attacker, but I should have played the elf as cascading into any number of things would have likely won me the game. (My reasoning at the time was that Bloodbraid wouldn't help me on the board because of Absolute Law it could never block and would be a bad attacker) However, cascading into one of: 2 Pernicious Deed, 3 Abrupt Decay, 1 Maelstrom Pulse would have allowed me to wipe his board (plus Extraction/Extirpate had I played properly). After the game I learned that he had a Zenith in hand that he drew the previous turn, so hitting any discard would have kept him from going off as well, I think I had 7 left. I still might have lost the third game, but I did not give myself the best chance to win.
(6-2)

Overall the deck felt strong throughout the day. Other thoughts on the deck:

Aside from a poor mulligan decision and the second RUG game I never had any real mana issues, 22 lands was fine. The Twilight Mire was actually helpful a couple of times throughout the day. Raging Ravine was okay, but not great. It helped a time or two from being a dual land though I only got to activate it once in a game I would have won without it. Generally when I activate Treetop Village I had extra lands anyway, though the trample was relevant exactly once, because my opponent didn't realize it had trample. Going forward it might just be better as another Fetchland, a second Treetop, or a second Basic Swamp.

The creature mix was good, I'll probably cut the Eternal Witness, as there were times when the double green could have been awkward and it could be replaced by something that's just simply stronger. Ooze was good all day and I can't see myself playing less than two. Bloodbraid Elf was amazing, though I took most/all of them out against combo decks, against everything else they were always a two or more for one. Even if the body isn't very relevant he can help double block to trade with something big and you have enough removal to punch him through a lot of the time anyway.

I like Inquisition over Thoughtsieze for the most part, there were a couple times I wished i could take something costing four or more, but also times when the two life would have made a big difference as well. I'd consider putting a couple Thoughsieze in the board, as most of the decks you want them against the life points don't matter as much.

In the Sideboard I'd remove Garruk Relentless. He didn't do much work. Back to Nature could probably be better served as a Krosan Grip or the fourth Abrupt Decay. I think Grafdigger's Cage would have been better as another Extraction effect, or something that doesn't get completely undone if it's answered. I'd move one of the Deeds to the main in place of the Eternal Witness. It's rarely bad, and can be game-breaking in many match-ups. It also frees up an extra sideboard slot... or just lets you have a third Deed.

Regarding Punishing Fire, I originally had it in the list, but in practice it just wasn't necessary, so I took them out. I agree with Brandon on both Punishing Fire and Jitte, neither are really necessary in this deck. Just because both are awesome doesn't mean they have a place in this deck, there is little that you are gaining by including them. Both get better as the game is going longer, but you should be winning many of those long games against the decks those cards beat up on anyway.

[JonhLightning]

Thanks Brandon for the initial list. I usually play decks that durdle around in the graveyard for value, but I don't like that place in the metagame right now and was looking for something else to try.

I took Jund to 11th place in SCG Vegas (and saw that someone else placed 12th). I lost the last round playing for top eight since I had the worst X-1 breakers and couldn't draw in, though the deck felt very strong and I made mistakes that cost me some games and at least one of my two match losses.

I like your deck list and I will give a try to Jund in legacy. I am currently playing Aggro Loam and loving it.

[laststepdown]

Has anyone thought about Destructive Flow possibly in board?

[largebrandon]

semioldguy:

Congrats on your finish! It's awesome that people are doing so well with this deck!

[crow_mw]

At this point lists in this thread are identical to BGW Rock builds, playing Lightning Bolt over Swords to Plowshares and Bloodbraid Elf over Knight of the Reliquary. Plus Red Elemental Blasts instead of any white hate cards.

Playing Bolt over Swords can possibly have some merit. Bolt has much better synergy with Deathrite Shaman, than swords. Provided your target is in bolt range on top of the obvious lack of life gain the slain creature provides food to your Shaman. Most of all however Shaman makes bolt reach even more valuable - sudden 5 damage to player is nothing to sneeze at. Don't get me wrong, Swords is still a better cards, but I could live with bolt over it, especially since this is supplemented by other strong point removal and discard.

What sounds like a much worse idea for me, however, is playing Elf over KotR. Fetching a Karakas could offset lack of Swords to Plowshares, he will almost never be smaller than elf, not to mention that she is one full mana cheaper and often can be played on turn 2. Now, with more and more people playing maindeck graveyard hate and KotR anty-syngery with Shaman I see one might opt to find a better option here, but elf is a whacky choice and to the best of my knowledge the creature to fill that slot has not yet been printed. I wonder however if Huntmaster of the Fells would not be a better choice here? Sure a 2/2 wolf is not a Tarmagoyf but Huntmaster has a long term value. Than again, haste on Elf adds consistency to the deck goals. I just dislike how often he can fail and it is even worse post-board when you bring in some hate.

Before I get to my point here, I need to add that Red Elemental Blast is a great anti-blue card and adds a way to snipe Jace - something the traditional Rock can have trouble with with only two pulses. I am also surprised that so few people run Slaughter Games. This card can for instance remove Entreat the Angels , giving you a ton of time to kill Miracles (as mentioned above - you can deal with Jace fairly well too) and provided your discard delays combo long enough for you to cast it - this more often than not is a game too, sniping their main (sometimes only) win-con. Note that a big thing about Slaughter Games is the uncounterability, so while it is a huge investment your opponent can't easily stop you from resolving it.

Ok, so why all this rambling? This is to address the question 'why play this over rock'. In current iteration Jund is a more explosive variant of Rock with greater blue-hate. To gain it Jund sacrifices utility of swords and kotr and hopes just to race the opponent with burn and hasted elves in situations where white would fight for board control with mentioned cards. There is still more tuning to be done, but Jund can definitely be a viable alternative to bgw Rock.

[Goosen]

crow_mw: Great post regarding R vs W. Just two cards you did not consider, Lingering Souls and Ancient Grudge. KotR need atleist 2 Wastelands and 1 Karakas to be good, so it needs more support cards then BBE. You can compare BBE against Lingering Souls instead, both mana intensive but very grindy cards.

[jjflipped]

@semioldguy: Why did you bring in extraction/extirpate against elves? As an elves player, I'd actually laugh if my opponent cast one of these. Also, how many removal spells did you have in the first couple games of rd 8? you can pretty easily combo with elves on t3.

[largebrandon]

At this point lists in this thread are identical to BGW Rock builds, playing Lightning Bolt over Swords to Plowshares and Bloodbraid Elf over Knight of the Reliquary. Plus Red Elemental Blasts instead of any white hate cards.

Playing Bolt over Swords can possibly have some merit. Bolt has much better synergy with Deathrite Shaman, than swords. Provided your target is in bolt range on top of the obvious lack of life gain the slain creature provides food to your Shaman. Most of all however Shaman makes bolt reach even more valuable - sudden 5 damage to player is nothing to sneeze at. Don't get me wrong, Swords is still a better cards, but I could live with bolt over it, especially since this is supplemented by other strong point removal and discard.

What sounds like a much worse idea for me, however, is playing Elf over KotR. Fetching a Karakas could offset lack of Swords to Plowshares, he will almost never be smaller than elf, not to mention that she is one full mana cheaper and often can be played on turn 2. Now, with more and more people playing maindeck graveyard hate and KotR anty-syngery with Shaman I see one might opt to find a better option here, but elf is a whacky choice and to the best of my knowledge the creature to fill that slot has not yet been printed. I wonder however if Huntmaster of the Fells would not be a better choice here? Sure a 2/2 wolf is not a Tarmagoyf but Huntmaster has a long term value. Than again, haste on Elf adds consistency to the deck goals. I just dislike how often he can fail and it is even worse post-board when you bring in some hate.

Before I get to my point here, I need to add that Red Elemental Blast is a great anti-blue card and adds a way to snipe Jace - something the traditional Rock can have trouble with with only two pulses. I am also surprised that so few people run Slaughter Games. This card can for instance remove Entreat the Angels , giving you a ton of time to kill Miracles (as mentioned above - you can deal with Jace fairly well too) and provided your discard delays combo long enough for you to cast it - this more often than not is a game too, sniping their main (sometimes only) win-con. Note that a big thing about Slaughter Games is the uncounterability, so while it is a huge investment your opponent can't easily stop you from resolving it.

Ok, so why all this rambling? This is to address the question 'why play this over rock'. In current iteration Jund is a more explosive variant of Rock with greater blue-hate. To gain it Jund sacrifices utility of swords and kotr and hopes just to race the opponent with burn and hasted elves in situations where white would fight for board control with mentioned cards. There is still more tuning to be done, but Jund can definitely be a viable alternative to bgw Rock.

1) You are correct, Bolt is better than Swords right now. Kills almost every creature that Swords would, with the added benefit of hitting the face and jace.
2) KotR is just awful right now in Legacy. There are Shamans running rampant, making knight rarely more than a 2/2. That's pretty significant. The fact that knight can get wasteland and karakas has no appeal for a BGx deck.
3) BBE is our Jace. It is a four mana spell that gives us card advantage and has an immediate impact on the board. The theme of the deck is aggro-control, so we want the card advantage whilst also killing them asap.
4) Slaughter games is an option, sure. However, I would never bring slaughter games against any deck with the intent to name jace. We have one mana spells that kill jace. Whilst Entreat CAN be an issue, it doesn't have to be. By the time they can entreat, they're probably at a low life in which you can burn them out with spells or shaman. Further, some sb cards help, like deed.
5) You play this over rock because it is just a better deck. BBE IS better than knight, bolt is better than swords, and the gameplan is miles better.

[soiber2000]

Just a quick note, that it is quite obvious but I realized that not everybody knows. The +2 on Jace is a cost, and you won't kill it with bolt in response.

As simple as it sounds, i've seen Many missplays with loyalty counters.

[largebrandon]

Just a quick note, that it is quite obvious but I realized that not everybody knows. The +2 on Jace is a cost, and you won't kill it with bolt in response.

As simple as it sounds, i've seen Many missplays with loyalty counters.

Yes, I do know and realize this. If they brainstorm with Jace, then you can bolt it. If they +2 it, you're still in great shape, bc they haven't done anything on the board.

[soiber2000]

Yes, I do know and realize this. If they brainstorm with Jace, then you can bolt it. If they +2 it, you're still in great shape, bc they haven't done anything on the board.

Yes, that's true. I was talking in general, maybe I should have said it, not for you :wink:

[Goosen]

1) You are correct, Bolt is better than Swords right now. Kills almost every creature that Swords would, with the added benefit of hitting the face and jace.
2) KotR is just awful right now in Legacy. There are Shamans running rampant, making knight rarely more than a 2/2. That's pretty significant. The fact that knight can get wasteland and karakas has no appeal for a BGx deck.
1. Not so sure. Sword still kills Tarmogoyf, KotR, Tombstalker, Batterskull token and so on. I think Sword is better on is own but in a deck that has Arupt Decay aswell, Lightning Bolt seems better.
2. Awful!? Sure Shaman is a great card, I love playing it. But is not even near to make KotH awful. A KotH can and most of the times put two lands in the graveyard and a Shaman remove just one. + the other fetches that are played. And alot of times the Shaman gets killed aswell or maybe not even draw one. And all decks dont even play Shaman. So in total maybe KotH have lost 5% in value, but its still one of the top dogs. In my book its still the best one. But that dasent mean its a great fit in all decks.

[lordofthepit]

1) You are correct, Bolt is better than Swords right now. Kills almost every creature that Swords would, with the added benefit of hitting the face and jace.
2) KotR is just awful right now in Legacy. There are Shamans running rampant, making knight rarely more than a 2/2. That's pretty significant. The fact that knight can get wasteland and karakas has no appeal for a BGx deck.
3) BBE is our Jace. It is a four mana spell that gives us card advantage and has an immediate impact on the board. The theme of the deck is aggro-control, so we want the card advantage whilst also killing them asap.
4) Slaughter games is an option, sure. However, I would never bring slaughter games against any deck with the intent to name jace. We have one mana spells that kill jace. Whilst Entreat CAN be an issue, it doesn't have to be. By the time they can entreat, they're probably at a low life in which you can burn them out with spells or shaman. Further, some sb cards help, like deed.
5) You play this over rock because it is just a better deck. BBE IS better than knight, bolt is better than swords, and the gameplan is miles better.

I don't disagree with most of what you said, but Knight is arguably still the best creature in Legacy (Vendilion Clique and maybe Noble Hierarch are the only others I'd consider). Granted, Maverick is much weaker now, but Knight is still a powerhouse.

If I'm playing Jund against Maverick, Junk, Bant, or Zoo, I save all my Abrupt Decays for Knight. It's the only creature that absolutely dominates the board when it hits.

[zulander]

Here's my proposed list:

Mana: 22
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Wasteland

Creatures: 18
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dark Confidant
4 Bloodbraid Elf

Disruption: 15
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
1 Liliana of the Veil

Other: 4
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Board:
2 Dismember
3 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Forked Bolt
2 Engineered Plague
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Maelstrom Pulse

(board is still up in the air)

This list runs a total of 14 ways of generating card advantage (bob/BBE/Hymn/Sylvan/liliana) as well as Jitte. I don't know if I like the Liliana or Thoughtseize there more. I want more turn 1 plays other than Shaman, and I don't know if liliana is just that great since most decks you want to -2 will have more than one creature by turn 4.

I also am unimpressed with 3 wasteland. I think 2 is fine as you want to be able to stop stupid maze of ith or any other lands, but that's about it. It's not much of a mana-denial deck so I feel like it's just being crammed in there. Jitte on the other hand I feel is great. Playing a turn 3 BBE into jitte is game breaking. While it doesn't occur often it's still a play that could be there. I feel that non-blue decks want as many solid ways of generating card advantage as possible, and that jitte is semi-card advantage.

[mishima_kazuya]

Since I had free entry into the Philadelphia Legacy Series Championship #2 from a top 8 with Stoneblade in a previous Phily Legacy Series event, I decided to play a fun deck. Keep in my mind I have not played Jund in about 2 years since it was legal in Standard. And I have not played a BGx Rock deck since I started playing Stoneforge Mystic control decks during Mental Misstep Legacy....so prepare for lots of bad plays. :eek:


1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Mountain
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Treetop Village

4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf

1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Sylvan Library

SB:
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Dread of Night
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Duress
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pernicious Deed

Round 1: Rest in Peace Counterbalance
Crushed the match up easily. It was close game 2 when he was one mana short of comboing out before my Sylvan Library found an Abrupt Decay for his Rest in Peace

Round 2: RUG Delver
I lost game 1 when he assembled triple Delver and Mongoose early. I screwed up fetching my mana trying to play around Wasteland, but it did not matter as I was not beating 3 flying 3/2s.
I fetched my basics aggresively and won games 2 and 3 while he was threat light.

Round 3: Goblins
My play got very bad from a lack of practice and familiarity. I kept a 5 land, bolt, Abrupt Decay hand and I almost got there when I drew a Tarmogoyf on turn 2. But he Ringleadered into 4 Goblins and I had no shot when my hand ran out of business.
I lost game 2 when we both had ended emtpy boards. I had 4 lands, one of which was a Treetop Village and all he was a Cavern of Souls and an Aether Vial on 2. I could play Bloodbraid Elf or Deathrite Shaman, but I just rushed through the turn and slamed my Bloodbraid Elf which hit a Lightning Bolt and at that point I just I had to attack. Correct play was to play Deathrite Shaman, leave Treetop Village up to block and then Bloodbraid Elf next turn when he finally vials in a creature.

Round 4: BUG Delver
Game 1 came down to a topdeck battle between our discard and he ended up with an uncontested Delver.
Game 2 the game went long which was fine with me and I got him on inevitability with Bloodbraids and Lilianas.
Game 3: I was short on mana and we both had one Deathrite Shaman, but he had a Mishra's Factory (mana seemed terrible on his deck). My position was 3 lands, Deathrite on board and Thoughtseize, Maelstorm PUlse and Bloodbraid in my hand. Instead of casting my Thoughtseize, then using Shaman at the end of his turn to force him to use his; I played Maelstrom Pulse and we all know how that ends...

Round 5: Esperblade
Since only 33 people showed up, a few x-2s can make it in the top 8, so I keep playing.
My opponent mulliganed both games and Jund did what it did best, crush U/x control decks.

Round 6: UWr MiracleBlade
He missed his 4th land drop game 1 while I ran him over with green dudues.
I mulligan game 2 and resolve Sylvan Library to bury him with cards. It got a little close since I played a litle too aggressively into his Terminus, but If I have a Library I can afford to walk into his sweepers since I don't want to give him more time.

I sneak in as 8th place at 4-2 and I get paired against mono red burn, with a decent pilot behind it.

Top 8: Burn
Game 1He topdecks lethal burn before I can finish him off with a pair of Tarmogoyfs.
Game 2 I played very bad...again. :mad: He has 0 cards in hand and 2 lands in play. I untap with Deathrite Shaman, 3 lands, no creatures in both graveyards, and my hand is 2 Bloodbraid Elf, 1 Liliana, 1 Deathrite Shaman. I realize that my way to win is to use Liliana to discard Bloodbraid Elfs so that I can gain life. I play Liliana, discard my Bloodbraid Elf and pass turn since I wanted a blocker in case he drew a Goblin Guide. I failed to realize that I could exile a land to cast my other Shaman and gain 4 life instead of 2 next turn. I obviously lose to a burn spell before I can go from 3 to 5.

Lessons:
-Bloodbraid Elf requires discipline and it should rarely EVER be casted if you have no removal targets.
-I need to pay attention to what Deathrite Shaman can do.

Notes:
- I played poorly in the tournament, but I think that if I had more time to practice with the deck I could have won the whole thing.
- The 3 REBS are overkill and one of them should probably be a 2nd Sylvan Library since you bring it in almost all of your fair deck match-ups.
- Engineered Explosives might actually be better than Deed in some match ups(Counterbalance variants mostly). It sucks to Bloodbraid into EE, but it still gets rid of their EE's or it eats their Angel tokens (my UWr miracles opponent tapped out to play EE on 2 and I blew my own EE on 0 to save my Library and Tarmogoyf)
- As long as counterbalance and Stoneblade control decks remain as popular as they are now, Jund is a very good choice. You are still a Rock deck in that you can still draw the wrong half of your deck and just get rolled by linear aggro strategies(Affinity) or combo decks, so keep that in mind.
-23 lands is good as I found myself a little land light sometimes, but not low enough to not cast spells.

[toor]

Since I had free entry into the Philadelphia Legacy Series Championship #2 from a top 8 with Stoneblade in a previous Phily Legacy Series event, I decided to play a fun deck. Keep in my mind I have not played Jund in about 2 years since it was legal in Standard. And I have not played a BGx Rock deck since I started playing Stoneforge Mystic control decks during Mental Misstep Legacy....so prepare for lots of bad plays. :eek:


1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Mountain
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Treetop Village

4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf

1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Sylvan Library

SB:
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Dread of Night
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Duress
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pernicious Deed


Nice list.

[mishima_kazuya]

Nice list.

Not sure if being sincere or being Lucas sarcastic...









Also, thanks to Lucas for giving me the inspiration to troll a Legacy tournament with a Modern deck along with some changes from Kenny Mayer's list.

[zulander]

What are people's boarding strategies? I run only 4 hymn main for discard, and wanted some boarding options for storm combo matchups.

22 lands (no waste)

Creatures: 18
4 Deathrite
4 Bob
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Bloodbraid Elf

Disruption: 16
4 Bolt
4 Hymn
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Go for the Throat
2 Liliana of the Veil

Other: 4
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte


Some board ideas:
Surgical Extraction
Duress/Thoughtseize
Sulfur Elemental (lolwatsuplingeringsouls)
Golgari Charm
Krosan Grip
Ancient Grudge
Forked Bolt
Maelstrom Pulse


I'm not sure about sweepers like Deed/EE, how have people liked them? What are you boarding them in for? Enchantress?

[semioldguy]

@semioldguy: Why did you bring in extraction/extirpate against elves? As an elves player, I'd actually laugh if my opponent cast one of these. Also, how many removal spells did you have in the first couple games of rd 8? you can pretty easily combo with elves on t3.

With most other decks I would not bring in extractions against elves, but with the high amount of discard, I really think it helps the match-up. With most combo decks, ripping their hand apart usually leaves them pretty dead to your creatures. However, elves has plenty of blockers to buy time to try to build up to another combo potential, so it's more difficult to kill them quickly after initially disrupting them. Neutering their ability to go off on a future turn is actually pretty relevant with Jund as the elves deck generally can't outdo you otherwise. As an elves player, would you expect to regularly beat Jund if you can't draw into a Glimpse?

[zulander]

Here's the list I ran this week

Mana: 22
10 fetches
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Twilight Mire
3 Basics
1 Treetop Village

Creatures: 19
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Grim Lavamancer

Disruption: 15
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Hymn to Taurach
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana
1 Go for the Throat

Other: 4
2 Sylvan Library
2 Jitte

Board: 15
4 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Engineered Plague
2 Choke
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Krosan Grip


Round 1: ANT
Game 1: He kills himself off of Ad Nauseam lol
Game 2: Tendrils me for lethal
Game 3: I open with thoughtseize seeing 2x Ponder, Burning Wish, Duress, land + petal. I had a surgical in my hand and decide to take wish and surgical in response to his duress. Apparently taking ponder was the right call? He ends up storming off in 2/3 turns later.

Round 2: BUG Cascade
Game 1: I get some fast beats and an active Jitte.
Game 2: I kept a bad hand, almost crawled back into it but he got there.
Game 3: I was able to get multiple BBE's, Sylvan, Goyf, and Jitte.
Cascade is a thing. Most BUG Decks don't give me such a hard time, but shardless agent + ancient visions + jace kept him in the card advantage game which usually doesn't happen.

Round 3: Goblins
Game 1: Early jitte = gg, he ends up destroying it but it was too late.
Game 2: Ooze + 3x Goyf with Hymn taking his perish = gg.

Round 4: Dredge
Game 1: He wins, absurd hand.
Game 2: I kept a slow hand because it had Engineered Plague. Bad idea. Should have mulled to surgical.

I enjoyed the deck but think it needs more early game action. I'm thinking of -2 Liliana, -1 Go for the Throat/Grim Lavamancer, +4 Thoughtseize? Liliana is great to cascade into, but not as game breaking as other planeswalkers are. Those 4 slots are the slots up for debate though, let me know if anyone else has some ideas. I also feel like the deck may need more board presence as goyf is the only real beater (and a ramped up Ooze), but I'm not sure what could fit in that slot. I think the board is pretty solid, only wished I had crypts against dredge but it is what it is.

[largebrandon]

Looks like 2 Jund decks in the Top 8 of Grand Prix Denver piloted by Josh Ravtiz and Pat Cox! Glad to see the deck making quite the showing.

[mishima_kazuya]

Looks like 2 Jund decks in the Top 8 of Grand Prix Denver piloted by Josh Ravtiz and Pat Cox! Glad to see the deck making quite the showing.

Its the BGx deck that beats the other BGx decks.

[bruizar]

Domri Rade is a dude you can cascade into. also, for those saying DRS kills kotr, you can fetch arena and kill them, problem solved. domri Rade also fights. Domri Rade hasn't received much love yet, but I think the card will see play. It combines very well with Sylvan Library or Sensei's Divining Top. Turn 2 Sylvan Library, turn 3 Stack library, Domri Rade, Draw a card seems great. The fight ability is a little bit harder to pull of than Liliana, but being able to choose your target is a lot better than an edict.

[Barook]

Domri Rade is a dude you can cascade into. also, for those saying DRS kills kotr, you can fetch arena and kill them, problem solved. domri Rade also fights. Domri Rade hasn't received much love yet, but I think the card will see play. It combines very well with Sylvan Library or Sensei's Divining Top. Turn 2 Sylvan Library, turn 3 Stack library, Domri Rade, Draw a card seems great. The fight ability is a little bit harder to pull of than Liliana, but being able to choose your target is a lot better than an edict.
Volrath's Stronghold seems even better, considering it guarantees a 100% chance to draw a critter as long as there is something in the yard.

Fighting also seems like a lesser problem with an early Goyf.

[crow_mw]

Domri Rade is a dude you can cascade into. also, for those saying DRS kills kotr, you can fetch arena and kill them, problem solved. domri Rade also fights. Domri Rade hasn't received much love yet, but I think the card will see play. It combines very well with Sylvan Library or Sensei's Divining Top. Turn 2 Sylvan Library, turn 3 Stack library, Domri Rade, Draw a card seems great. The fight ability is a little bit harder to pull of than Liliana, but being able to choose your target is a lot better than an edict.

The biggest issue with Domri Rade is that he doesn't do anything on his own. Even if he had great interaction with top/library, that wouldn't matter all that much, as there are two-card combos that straight up win games. In a Rock/Jund shell at best 1/3 of your deck is creatures, likely less. If at the very least his first ability would allow you to ding for creatures faster, maybe it could be considered. But as it stands now on his own he has less than 33% to give you CA, that might be improved by other cards you run.

Forcing creature combat is sweet, but not at -2 from a 3-loyality plainswalker with no other ability to protect himself.

Needless to say he is by miles inferior to his direct competitor - Liliana. Liliana kills Emrakuls, Progenituses (sp?) and pro-everything sword holders, when occasionally Domri Rade gets to snipe a Maverick hate bear or some tribal lord. On top of that of course she drills enemy hands and gives us almost certain CA in our worst matchups, where Domri just sits with his 'if you draw a creature draw an extra card'.

Maybe he can work in some creature heavy list but such a deck would have a totally different build philosophy than the one discussed in this thread.

[Barook]

Aside from the GP performance, yet another Jund list got a Top 8 at the latest SCG Open (clicky (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=52087)). It also got a few Top 8 spots before. Shouldn't there be a thread to the Established forum? Aside from a little variance, the core of the deck is already pretty much set in stone.

Who's going to write the primer?

[lordofthepit]

Aside from the GP performance, yet another Jund list got a Top 8 at the latest SCG Open (clicky (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=52087)). It also got a few Top 8 spots before. Shouldn't there be a thread to the Established forum? Aside from a little variance, the core of the deck is already pretty much set in stone.

Who's going to write the primer?

I'd prefer to stay under the radar.

Never understood why people are so happy when a deck they play becomes a DtB. Especially Dredge players. They're the most vocal about it everytime they move in and out, and they are the most susceptible to hate.

[wcm8]

I'd prefer to stay under the radar.

Never understood why people are so happy when a deck they play becomes a DtB. Especially Dredge players. They're the most vocal about it everytime they move in and out, and they are the most susceptible to hate.

I know what you mean. Once a deck becomes a known threat, other decks will adapt heavily to beat it. It's really no surprise that Jund performed so well recently because BUG was the deck-to-beat, which of course has a ton of trouble against midrange value decks. 1-for-1'ing with Abrupt Decay is underwhelming against a deck that runs Liliana, Dark Confidant, and BBE. Heck, even BBE itself is a legitimate threat since it can't be Abrupt Decay'd and BUG tends to be fragile with its life total thanks to all the fetches and possibly Thoughtseize.

I'm not really sure what the natural foil to Jund is, perhaps some form of fast combo? Even there, Jund still runs discard to have a fighting chance. As happy as I am to see non-Blue decks doing well, I really hope Legacy doesn't devolve into a Standard/Modern-esque midrange slug-fest.

[razvan]

Aside from the GP performance, yet another Jund list got a Top 8 at the latest SCG Open (clicky (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=52087)). It also got a few Top 8 spots before. Shouldn't there be a thread to the Established forum? Aside from a little variance, the core of the deck is already pretty much set in stone.

Who's going to write the primer?
I can. I have written a primer for aggro loam that i haven't posted, and the deck pretty much morphed into Jund. Where should I post it once it is done (and if someone else posted it already, I can just post it in the new thread).

[zulander]

I was hoping to write the primer too lol, Razvan can you PM with what you have and then we can do it jointly?

[razvan]

I still have to tweak it significantly. It won't be done for a day or two at least. I don't mind collaborating at all :).

[largebrandon]

That'd be awesome if this could get a primer! Let me know if I could be of any help. Its quite crazy how most of the deck is modern playable, but I guess it now makes sense why it's so good in modern. I first played the deck at the SCG St Louis because I had access to the modern cards already.

Also, is it time to follow suit with the modern deck and splash for lingering souls?

[zulander]

Well you can splash for white but that makes the manabase more unstable, especially if you are running wasteland, even if you're playing Deathrite Shaman already. Although white does give you swords as well, but it's a tough call.

[ryn ball_2]

I think it is not time for splashing white for lingering souls, as far as i know in modern format they splash white for slight advantage against jund mirrors and also good synergy with liliana of the veil, plus land destruction isnt an issue in modern cuz super small percentage of decks are using tectonic edges/g. quarter so jund manabase doesnt exploited very well. And yes i'm piloting jund in modern and i made couple of success w/ that deck. In legacy terms i'am interested in running the list atm i'm a rock player.

Couple of questions if it is ok:
1) how is the dredge MU? i know we have DRS but i have the feeling that it isnt that great, so other list have 2 scavenging ooze to up the chance beating it?

2) Do you guys prefer running pulse in addition to decay? i saw a list but it is singleton and some list do not have it at all, is there any issues about when opposing planeswalker landed on their field and jund deck has no answer/kill on it?

3) Some list runs sylvan library, some list runs SDT, i prefer running SDT i know it is mana extensive but it has great synergy w/ bob and also have slight synergy w/ BBE that you can rearrange the top 3 so that desired card will be cascade or if we have fetch land in field we can shuffle up the top and look again so that desired card will be cascade, Your thoughts?

thanks guys!

[Greenpoe]

Library plays better with Jund's gameplan since you don't have to sink mana into it every turn. Library is pretty awful in multiples. Top is better vs. Deed decks or decks with Abrupt Decay. Library turns every draw-step into an Ancestral Recall when you don't care about your lifetotal (High Tide, Painter combo). There's always Mirri's Guile if you want a compromise between Top and Library. I'd say that Top is weaker with BBE, since if you spot a BBE in the top 3 with either card, you're going to want to cast it that turn. With Top, the mana-intensity makes that less likely. (I mean, you're on your main phase. You have 4 or less lands out total. You look at the top 3, spot a BBE, and you won't have mana to cast it that turn if you tap Top. With Library, you can cast it right away.) Similarly, if you have a BBE in hand, Library will be better for cascading unless you have 5+ mana where it wouldn't really matter. I think a 1-1 split would be okay, but Library is the stronger card. Plus, Library is great when you see the top 3 and want two of the cards - like if you want to hit your land drop and cast something, but have no lands in hand.

[zulander]

I think it is not time for splashing white for lingering souls, as far as i know in modern format they splash white for slight advantage against jund mirrors and also good synergy with liliana of the veil, plus land destruction isnt an issue in modern cuz super small percentage of decks are using tectonic edges/g. quarter so jund manabase doesnt exploited very well. And yes i'm piloting jund in modern and i made couple of success w/ that deck. In legacy terms i'am interested in running the list atm i'm a rock player.

Couple of questions if it is ok:
1) how is the dredge MU? i know we have DRS but i have the feeling that it isnt that great, so other list have 2 scavenging ooze to up the chance beating it?

2) Do you guys prefer running pulse in addition to decay? i saw a list but it is singleton and some list do not have it at all, is there any issues about when opposing planeswalker landed on their field and jund deck has no answer/kill on it?

3) Some list runs sylvan library, some list runs SDT, i prefer running SDT i know it is mana extensive but it has great synergy w/ bob and also have slight synergy w/ BBE that you can rearrange the top 3 so that desired card will be cascade or if we have fetch land in field we can shuffle up the top and look again so that desired card will be cascade, Your thoughts?

thanks guys!


1) It's not a good matchup pre-board, post board it gets better but they're very quick.

2) I like pulse as a 2 of in the board.

3) Sylvan is much much better than SDT. You get more cards, rearrange for BBE and DC, and don't have to keep paying mana for it.

[Lord Seth]

Library plays better with Jund's gameplan since you don't have to sink mana into it every turn. Library is pretty awful in multiples.Hrm...is it? Maybe I'm misunderstanding it, but if you have two libraries, doesn't that mean you get to look at the top five cards of your library instead of the top three? That's doesn't seem awful. Not necessarily particularly great, but extra digging never seems bad.

[alphastryk]

Hrm...is it? Maybe I'm misunderstanding it, but if you have two libraries, doesn't that mean you get to look at the top five cards of your library instead of the top three? That's doesn't seem awful. Not necessarily particularly great, but extra digging never seems bad.

Nope, you don't see anything more unless you pay life on the first one - they 2 from the first Library go back before you draw the 2 from the second Library. It's not very useful.

[zulander]

Shuffle effets also let you see more cards.

[Zirath]

Two people (me included) top 8'd the Mythic Event with Jund. We both played lists similar to the GP lists. I talked with the other Jund player about the deck and we had some similar conclusions relative to the GP list:

1) You need a library manipulation element. Either Top or Library. Just 1 seems to be sufficient.

2) Hymn is still underwhelming. It's really good against combo, sometimes. It is most effective against Storm but it is not amazing against Sneak Show since they still play Pierce and Force. In any other match, it is still underwhelming. Hitting lands is not really amazing with many decks going up to 23-24 lands and it was weaker against RUG/Maverick/Stoneblade anyways. It is still a decent card in the board and I might move it there.

3) This deck doesn't have a lot of real removal. Yes you have 10-11 removal spells most of the time but it definitely didn't feel like enough. Terminate and Deathmark are the cards that I feel would be the most appropriate because I want more removal that will hit in the BG Mirrors. I would like Terminate just for a little more versatility.

[crow_mw]

Zirath - So how does your list look like after mentioned changes? As far as lack of removal goes do you find the 3cmc removal spells to be too expensive? Did you go up to 4 abrupt decays?

[Cryoclasm]

Two people (me included) top 8'd the Mythic Event with Jund. We both played lists similar to the GP lists. I talked with the other Jund player about the deck and we had some similar conclusions relative to the GP list:

3) This deck doesn't have a lot of real removal. Yes you have 10-11 removal spells most of the time but it definitely didn't feel like enough. Terminate and Deathmark are the cards that I feel would be the most appropriate because I want more removal that will hit in the BG Mirrors. I would like Terminate just for a little more versatility.

I would suggest Go for the Throat instead of Terminate, because of the cost. My meta is full of BUGs with Stalkers and no MUDs around, so it is definitely my choice for SB (2x).

[Zirath]

Zirath - So how does your list look like after mentioned changes? As far as lack of removal goes do you find the 3cmc removal spells to be too expensive? Did you go up to 4 abrupt decays?

I was running 3 Decay and 1 Pulse. Pulse is okay but I would really like more removal for Deathrite Shaman in particular. Blowing Pulse on Shaman is not super exciting most of the time. However I did forget I was only running 3 Abrupt Decay so maybe that is the right card. I'm not 100% sure what I want to change it to yet, but I'm thinking -3 Hymn, +1 IoK, -1 Land (probably a Wasteland), +1 Thoughtseize, +1 Abrupt Decay/Terminate/GftT, +1 Sensei's Top in the maindeck and -1 Engineered Plague, -1 Pyroblast, +2 Terminate/GftT/Deathmark for the board. I'm going to do a little bit of tuning and try to figure it out fully.


I would suggest Go for the Throat instead of Terminate, because of the cost. My meta is full of BUGs with Stalkers and no MUDs around, so it is definitely my choice for SB (2x).

I would except MUD is a thing in my area (mostly my fault, I had a streak with MUD over the summer and picked up some followers). Those removal spells are bound by your metagame. In an open meta, you might need 1 Pulse and 1 Terminate/GftT because of non-creatures being more popular.

Diabolic Edict is also a thing for Sneak Show.

[James]

And why not playing Punishing Fire if you are worried about multiple Deathrite Shamans? or is it because Treetop Village + Wasteland are too important to substitute them by the PF + Grove of the Burnwillows package?

I think the Punishing version is still viable in the current metagame (at least it seems better than adding Terminate or GftT). Deathmark should be my personal choice above Terminate or GftT.

[Zirath]

And why not playing Punishing Fire if you are worried about multiple Deathrite Shamans? or is it because Treetop Village + Wasteland are too important to substitute them by the PF + Grove of the Burnwillows package?

I think the Punishing version is still viable in the current metagame (at least it seems better than adding Terminate or GftT). Deathmark should be my personal choice above Terminate or GftT.

I also had a situation where I faced down double KotR and I couldn't get past. In addition, Scapeshift is a thing in my area so spells that can eliminate top deck Titan would be desirable.

Punishing Fire is okay but I don't know what I would cut from the maindeck for it. You have to run at least 3 for it to be useful and it is a slow card. I don't think I want more cards that make me grind.

I can certainly try Punishing Fire but I don't think I want to remove more discard spells which are critical against the combo decks for it.

[zulander]

Punishing fire isn't a thing in legacy, and Go for the Throat is much better than deathmark. Notice he said "real removal" - as in negligible to no drawbacks. Deathmark and PFire don't fill that role.

[Tinefol]

Punishing fire isn't a thing in legacy

Sure, now if only that statement had any rationale behind it. Anybody could say that %cardname% isn't a thing in legacy. Or that %username% has no clue of legacy. You know, its so tempting right now.

[bruizar]

Punishing Fires has a history in legacy and is very well positioned in the current meta.

A) It deals with Deathrite Shaman to keep the recursion active.
B) Deals with Liliana of the Veil because 1: Discard becomes useless 2: it burns liliana out
C) Burns Jaces out
D) Kills clique, confidant, bloodbraid elf, elves.dec, snapcaster mage, sfm, spirit tokens, delver
E) Is a win condition
F) Kills goblins
G) Will actually kill bigger things if the game goes long


Punishing fire isn't a thing in legacy, and Go for the Throat is much better than deathmark. Notice he said "real removal" - as in negligible to no drawbacks. Deathmark and PFire don't fill that role.

What would you like to remove with your real removal? If your answer is Tarmogoyf, I'd still opt for punishing fires since you are running Abrupt Decay and Liliana's as well which should be more than enough to deal with Tarmogoyf. You won't need as much removal if you have recurring burn.


PS: recurring burn has been 'a thing' in Magic since Hammer of Bogardan (1996)

[Morte]

Top 8 Jund + Punishing Fire at 45 people event (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9923&iddeck=72335):



Creatures [18]
2 Scavenging Ooze (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Scavenging%20Ooze)
4 Bloodbraid Elf (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Bloodbraid%20Elf)
4 Dark Confidant (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Dark%20Confidant)
4 Deathrite Shaman (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Deathrite%20Shaman)
4 Tarmogoyf (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Tarmogoyf)

Instants [9]
3 Abrupt Decay (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Abrupt%20Decay)
3 Lightning Bolt (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Lightning%20Bolt)
3 Punishing Fire (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Punishing%20Fire)

Sorceries [8]
2 Inquisition of Kozilek (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Inquisition%20of%20Kozilek)
2 Thoughtseize (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Thoughtseize)
4 Hymn to Tourach (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Hymn%20to%20Tourach)

Enchantments [1]
1 Sylvan Library (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Sylvan%20Library)



Planeswalkers [3]
3 Liliana of the Veil (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Liliana%20of%20the%20Veil)

Artifacts [1]
1 Sensei's Divining Top (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Sensei's%20Divining%20Top)

Lands [20]
1 Badlands (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Badlands)
1 Forest (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Forest)
1 Mountain (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Mountain)
1 Swamp (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Swamp)
1 Taiga (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Taiga)
2 Bloodstained Mire (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Bloodstained%20Mire)
2 Wooded Foothills (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Wooded%20Foothills)
3 Bayou (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Bayou)
4 Grove of the Burnwillows (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Grove%20of%20the%20Burnwillows)
4 Verdant Catacombs (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Verdant%20Catacombs)


2 Pithing Needle (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Pithing%20Needle)
2 Angel of Despair (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Angel%20of%20Despair)
2 Extirpate (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Extirpate)
2 Pernicious Deed (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Pernicious%20Deed)
3 Engineered Plague (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Engineered%20Plague)
2 Krosan Grip (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Krosan%20Grip)
2 Slaughter Games (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Slaughter%20Games)




It seems this deck is going to jump from N&D to DTB :cool:

[Zirath]

Punishing fire isn't a thing in legacy, and Go for the Throat is much better than deathmark. Notice he said "real removal" - as in negligible to no drawbacks. Deathmark and PFire don't fill that role.

Actually, Punishing Fire has shown up a lot in Jund lists. It could certainly be right in this metagame.

[razvan]

It seems this deck is going to jump from N&D to DTB :cool:
I don't think that is the case. The deck is good, it is definitely established, but I doubt it's DTB level just yet.

[Morte]

I was just talking of numbers.

Look at the latest worldwide top 8 (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/): Jund is everywhere, I'd say at the same level of Team America, that is a much more common choice.

A good explanation of the success of Jund in current Legacy meta can be found in this article (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/25486_Eternal-Europe-ndash-Week-One-Of-2013-Legacy.html) by Mons (Carsten Kotter).

"The remarkable development here has to be the rise of Jund (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?game_type=1&singlesearch=Jund). A fringe archetype at best up to now, the deck outperformed RUG Delver by one top placement and matched Esper Stoneblade for most successful archetype as long as we differentiate BUG lists at least into the aggro-control variety (with Delver) and the midrange/control variety (Midrange and Shardless). That's a truly impressive result for an archetype that likely had far fewer players running it in each of these tournaments than the more established (or hyped) decks.That Jund (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?game_type=1&singlesearch=Jund) should prove to be the prospective heir to the throne of best non-blue long-game deck isn't that surprising though. If Modern has proven one thing, it's that Jund (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?game_type=1&singlesearch=Jund) is good at grinding out other fair midrange decks. Looking at how many of those reached Top 16 in these events, Jund (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?game_type=1&singlesearch=Jund)probably had a field day in the current environment.
Add to that that most other decks had reasonable plans for combo and that some of the combo decks are exceedingly weak to discard (I'm looking at you, Show and Tell (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?game_type=1&singlesearch=Show+and+Tell)) and Jund (http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?game_type=1&singlesearch=Jund) looks like it will be well positioned in Legacy as long as the meta doesn't shift radically."

[Cryoclasm]

Morte, I have tried to imply the same idea for Pat Cox list, since I feel that Punishing Fire >>> Grim Lavamancer because Darkblast will kill our wizards(and what not) and because I don't believe it will have enough fuel to shoot without affecting Tarmo.

That's what I played in my local store for 4 rounds:
Creatures [18]
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants [9]
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Punishing Fire

Sorceries [8]
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach

Enchantments [1]
1 Sylvan Library
Planeswalkers [3]
4 Liliana of the Veil

Lands [20]
1 Badlands
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland

Sideboard[15]:
3 Pyroblast
2 Extirpate
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Plague
2 Krosan Grip
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Life from the Loam
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Now looking at Morte's decklist I am inclined to adjust burn spells to 3-3 which seems reasonable, I also root for 4 Liliana's. Even when I had 3 of them, I was happy to feed my Tarmo =)
Yes, it was a risky move to play both Wastelands AND Groves but it payed off.
I am also not sure about my sideboard now, have to reassess it anyway.
So I mull to 5 in the first and got a Show on 2nd turn, but won easily 2 and 3 against OmniShow.
2-0 VS Goblins, killing everything in first with Punishing fire and dropping Tarmos. 2nd game was like Bolt, Hymn, E.Plague, Bloodbraid Elf into Liliana, I am sorry.
1-1 against ANT(teammate), my 5th turn and he is 2 hits away from death, since Bloodbraid cascaded into Shaman and not into burn.
2-0 GW posts. Now that was funny, since I allowed him to ramp, but hymn him when he has 2 cards in hand and Titan and Zenith left him. Liliana forces him to play in topdeck mode and he hits blanks. He didn't see any Wastelands, so the second game started with Pithing Needle to my Verdant Catacombs(lol), I dropped Liliana, killed Titan, wasted Cloudpost, next turn wasted another, topdecked Life from the Loam thanks to Sylvan Library and he was done.

I was greedy enough and that payed off well. =)
Jund has obviously become a DTB.

[Nihil Credo]

Morte is entirely correct. Congratulations to Jund on a lightning-fast DTB status!

Now, however, there is some work to do. A Deck to Beat thread requires a proper primer rather than a naked decklist. Anybody who is interested in writing one such is strongly encouraged to post it in this thread. I will then put the primer in the OP, taking into account any feedback from other Jund players.

[razvan]

zulander and i are working on it nihil. i got delayed with work over the last week or so, but we will hopefully get it done by this weekend.

[razvan]

http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MAG_PC2/Jund.jpg

Chapter 1: What is Jund?

No one playing any format of magic at the end of 2012 needs to be introduced to what is probably the most reviled of any Alara shard: Jund.

Jund is a combination of three colors, black, red and green. Simply put, this deck runs the most effective cards from those colors, combining them into a quasi-midrange "fair" deck.

A fairly popular Jund deck has been Aggro Loam:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16436-Deck-Aggro-Loam

It runs a lot of the cards from the basic Jund list, taking out some of the discard for the Life from the Loam engine, as well as several cards that take advantage of Loam, such as Seismic Assault and the Urza's Saga cycle-lands cycle (!).

Currently, the most well-known Jund deck is the Modern version of Jund, which won several large events, including a few Grand Prix as well as taking 2nd place in PT:Return to Ravnica (damn eggs!).

Ever since its inception in Shards of Alara, a Bloodbraid Elf/Blightning deck has existed, and generally dominated if enough people started playing it. Although Blightning has since falled out of favor, Bloodbraid Elf is a crucial part of the Modern version, and has started popping up in several Legacy lists.

Personally, I do not like BBE as a card, but the power it brings is undeniable in a deck filled with efficient 1-for-1's as well as several powerful card draw engines.

Since a lot of people have played Jund in other formats, it makes sense to give a high-level overview of what is different in the Legacy version of Jund, when compared to Modern:

Wasteland. No other card in the deck makes as large a difference as Wasteland does. Modern Jund is powerful because it can put forward large threats that require immediate responses or they can take over the game. Wasteland in Legacy allows Jund to not only do that, but put forth another angle of attack, mana denial. One of Legacy's premier decks, RUG delver, sometimes runs only 6 colored mana producing lands. You can run up to four Wastelands, and have the ability to get them back. They are almost-uncounterable, free Stone Rains. I originally considered making this list just one card, and it would not have been wrong.

Original Dual Lands. Modern Jund (whether 3 or 4-color) does a lot of damage to itself with the mana base. Each land coming into play tapped will slow you down significantly, especially since you run a discard suite that doesn't affect the board. You are forced to take a lot of damage (fetching a Ravnica shock-land to cast Thoughtseize removes a quarter of your starting life) quickly, and thus can fall prey to speedy aggro or burn decks. On the other side of the coin, you are often unable to take advantage of the damage dealt to your opponent. Having access to pain-free dual lands allow you to survive longer and establish a board presence.

Onslaught Fetch-lands. Bloodstained Mire and Wooded Foothills are absent in Modern, and only Verdant Catacombs is available. Although 4-color Jund runs Marsh Flats effectively, 3-color is forced to run less effective Fetch-lands.

Sylvan Library. Although only played as a 1-of or 2-of, Sylvan Library is a very powerful card. The ability to have a free Sensei's Divining Top every turn adds up, and against certain decks, you are able to draw up to four cards during the game (such as High Tide). Since you are not really taking any damage from your lands coming into play, this is possible.

No Urzatron decks. As far as I can tell, there is no single match-up that is as horrible for Jund in Legacy, as Tron and others are for Modern Jund. The presence of Brainstorm keeps those ridiculous lists in checks, and allows you to run very powerful sideboard cards against Brainstorm decks, such as Red Elemental Blast.


Now, that being said, why should you play Jund? What are the major strengths of this deck:

You run the most efficient cards that are not blue or called Swords to Plowshares. This phrase gets tossed around a lot when describing Jund, and most people have accepted it without thinking, myself included. What this means is that every card you play needs to be answered, or you are ahead significantly. Your discard costs one mana and takes away the most powerful card your opponent has. Your creatures are cheap, and either hit for a lot, or are a source of card advantage. Your removal is cheap and effecively and you run a lot of it. That is basically it.

The deck is very flexible. Most people miss this point. There are a lot of ways to build Jund, from the aforementionned Aggro Loam, to a discard-heavy deck for combo metas, to a removal-heavy version for aggro-matchups, to an effective anti-control package. Jund is versatile and your opponents will not know which configuration you are running.

You have no truly bad match-ups, and you have some great match-ups, unlike the Modern version. This point is very contentious, and while admitting that there are difficult match-ups, you are never completely out when facing any opponent. You have a great RUG delver match-up.

It is not a very popular deck, and it is difficult to hate out. Name one card that completely shuts Jund down. No such card exists, although there are several cards that hurt you.


What are the major weaknesses of Jund:

Combo. This is less of an issue than most people make it out to be. It is true, once combo-decks get going, you are not favored. Your proactive solutions (aka. discard) are cheaper and quicker, but not as powerful as Counterspells. Top-decking a powerful card like Ad Nauseum, or Show and Tell is still a problem. However, most combo-decks cannot simply win with an empty hand, even with those bombs, and you have a lot of cards that help you get to that point.

Junk / Deadguy Ale. As a long-time Jund player, I hate this match-up more than any other. Where you run Lightning Bolt, they run Swords to Plowshares. Where you run Abrupt Decay or Maelstrom Pulse, they run Vindicate. They also run cards like Bitterblossom, Elspeth, and Hero of Bladehold that are very difficult to deal with. They also run Stoneforge Mystic and equipment, as well as discard, Dark Confidant, Liliana and Wastelands. This is a match-up where Bloodbraid Elf is your biggest ace, and it still might not be enough. Good luck. This is probably your worst match-up. More on this in the match-up section.

Burn. You have almost no way to interact with them, other than Inquisition of Kozilek, which has seemingly fallen out of favor, and sideboard, where you do not want narrow solutions against a fringe deck.


This would be a good time to start on the meat of the primer, cards used in the deck. I will go over the most widely used cards and say a few words for each:

Chapter 2: Jund creatures:

Unlike some decks in Legacy, your primary win conditions are actual creatures that go in the red zone. Unlike UW Control, Jund, ostensibly being a part-time control deck, CAN just aggro the opponent very quickly. Burn and some very aggressive creatures can allow you to win before the other deck can set up.

4 Dark Confidant: Dark Confidant will rarely live to see your next upkeep, although the existence of the Deathrite Shaman took some heat off. Since your opponent NEEDS to deal with this card if you survive the next few turns, every turn this lives is a huge bonus. Even combo decks can rarely afford to let this little guy resolve.

People often side him out in matches like Burn or Combo, and that is a mistake. He is just that good. If nothing else, he can block a Goblin Guide, or eat a burn spell meant for your head. Even if he survives, think of it this way: every card you draw is a Time Walk. Even if you take damage, as long as the damage is less than the average damage taken by the cards in your opponents deck (add the total damage dealt by a burn deck and divide it by 60), you are still ahead.

4 Deathrite Shaman: A one-mana planeswalker. Not only that, he has two toughness, which is an inexplicable bonus, and he can be cast with either of your two primary colors. He is good on every possible level.

That having been said, people seem to exalt this guy a bit too much. He is not removal, which is a big thing, unlike Grim Lavamancer. In a format littered with things that you really wanna do 2 damage to, Deathrite Shaman's impact is more subtle. His primary ability is to catapult you a full turn ahead, being able to cast 3cc spells on turn 2, and 4cc spells on turn 3. His life-gain is especially relevant against RUG, a match-up you do not need more help with. His damage dealing is the same as the Grim Lavamancers, but you rarely use him as such early on.

Finally, he is a good maindeck-able hate card against Reanimator, Life from the Loam, Snapcaster, Dredge, and various other insane strategies.

2-4 Tarmogoyf: People have played less than 4, and some have played zero. I can safely say that they are probably incorrect, or a mad genius.

Tarmogoyf is nothing new, and whatever people said about him, I am sure they said it better than I could. He is huge, for two mana, and more importantly, he can stand up to other people playing their own Tarmogoyfs. I would play 4.

0-4 Bloodbraid Elf: Bloodbraid Elf is a marquee player in Jund decks ever since inception, and people have tried them in legacy before, to average success. In a deck designed to have the best 1-for-1's, a card that does something and leaves behind a 3/2 hasted body has got to be good.

It is, but there are several drawbacks that make BBE a different animal in Legacy than it does in Modern.

First, there are less permanents in a lot of legacy decks. Control and Combo decks often have little to no non-land permanents, and a large part of your deck is removal. Getting an Abrupt Decay or a Ligthning Bolt will never be completely dead, but it is not really something you want in certain match-ups. Flipping a Thoughtseize when you need a creature is similarly weak.

The random aspect of this card can be a problem, given that it costs 4 mana. It doesn't mean that it is bad, but like in Modern, you have to know when to cast it, and this is a reason why most players do not play the full four.

There are two reasons, however, why this card is incredibly pwoerful. First, it will require two cards to deal with. Jund is really good at attrition, and often your opponent will have nothing in hand. An unanswered 3/2 haste creature by itself is a problem, even on turns 3 or 4, if it flips over a Tarmogoyf that requires more immediate removal.

Secondly, yes, it can flip you into a victory. Cascade still happens, no matter what your opponent does (short of a Stifle), and while they can counter your cascaded-into card instead of the BBE, you still traded 1-for-1 and have a hasty Delver on the ground. Not bad.

0-2 Huntmaster of the Fells: I think it was Brian Kibler that, at one point, lamented Modern Jund as being a amalgamation of cards that do the exact same thing, and posited it as a reason why Jund is unhealthy for the format.

We cannot possibly ignore anything Brian says. We have to try everything that might be good, and this is where I am now.

Huntmaster might not be the best idea, and it might not be as good as BBE. However it does bring certain things to the table.

First and foremost, you can cast into an empty board. With BBE, you do not want to waste the cascade. Cascading into a Lightning Bolt is fine, but getting an Abrupt Decay or a spare Liliana is a waste. Huntmaster is perfect in a top-deck war. It leaves behind a 2/2 Wolf if he gets removed, it gains you life, which could end up mattering, and most importantly, if it flips, acts as removal, and a monster.

Bloodbraid does 6 damage over two turns. Huntmaster could do at least 4, and quite possibly 8, including the spare Wolf. Obviously he is a Lightning Rod for removal, however, Abrupt Decay doesn't hit it, the wolf still lives, and once he flips, he is surprisingly difficult to deal with. Sadly, Abrupt Decay WILL hit the night side, but that's life.

You have to decide which 4-drop you want to use. This isn't modern, where you can use both.

0-2 Scavenging Ooze: This card suffered more than any other by the advent of Deathrite Shaman, but Ooze is still incredibly potent as a creature. I played four of them and I never regretted it. Unanswered, it single-handedly beats RUG Delver and other decks, and it can get you out of a tight jam when you draw it after a prolonged creature battle with the various decks.

The problem is that Deathrite Shaman is just... better, since it's pretty much a one-mana planeswalker. However, I would still try to find space for this guy in the maindeck, maybe only as a 1 or 2-of, because whatever was said for Shaman, this is almost as good, and it can remove a lot of cards very quickly. Remember to always use up your green mana if there are cards your opponent can use in their graveyards, unless you do not have enough to have it survive Lightning Bolt tricks.

Finally, remember that it does require a lot of green mana, so manage your lands carefully.

0-2 Grim Lavamancers: It's a testament to how good Grim Lavamancer was if people still play him when they have Deathrite Shaman.

Grim Lavamancer is removal, simply put. He is slow, but unanswered, he invalidates entire decks. This is a reoccuring theme in Jund. He only has one toughness, which makes him vulnerable to all sorts of commonly (and less commonly played removal), such as Forked Bolt and Darkblast.

He has been marginalized heavily with the release of Return to Ravnica, but still finds a home in slower, more grindy Jund lists.


Chapter 3: Jund removal:

The second aspect of Jund is the heavy removal suite that it plays.

2-4 Abrupt Decay: The new kid on the removal block. Really, I cannot think of the last card that was as good as this thing. An instant "remove everything" is good. Again, people have extolled the virtues of Abrupt Decay for months-on-end, and whatever I can add is not going to make a dent.

However, I do feel the need to add what it cannot kill: Jace, Elspeth, Show and Tell monstrosities, Hero of Bladehold, and man-lands. Luckily, you have other cards that can brutalize Jace, but the others are a real issue for Jund. Thankfully, the ability to kill absolutely EVERYTHING else makes this a mainstay until they print something better.

4 Lightning Bolt: One mana, kill most things. Creatures, planeswalkers, win Tarmogoyf wars, and even end the game a turn quicker, since, you know, everything is a Time Walk. Lightning Bolt has been a staple of control and aggro decks since the beginning of time in 1993, and there will never be another card in Jund colors that is as good as this card.

Sideboarding out Bolts almost never happens, not even against decks where they have no creatures. Even combo can be raced alongside your discard, and there are far more useless cards to take out.

0-2 Maelstrom Pulse: Maelstrom Pulse is a card for the people that want to make sure they are able to kill any one card the opponent can possibly play. It is not wrong to include a number of these in your 75. For a while, I employed two in the sideboard to deal with certain annoyances like Leylines, Helms, Energy Fields, Planeswalkers and the like.

Maelstrom Pulse is slow, expensive and sorcery-speed. These are big issues. However, the effect is often so necessary that you have to maintain parity and use your entire turn to kill something. Abrupt Decay has pushed this card out of the deck, but Josh Ravitz did have one maindeck in his GP:Denver 2013 Top-4 list.

0-2 Engineered Explosives: Ironically, this amazing removal card was made both stronger and weaker by the printing of Deathrite Shaman.

I use it as a foil to Nimble Mongoose and other hexproof cards, all of which are very annoying and can win the game against you (Geist of Saint Traft, anyone?). Shaman being ubiqutous as the one-slot means you cannot simply 2-for-1 or 3-for-1 RUG decks as easily.

On the flip side, you can now set sunburst at 4 mana to deal with a LOT of the problematic cards Jund faces: Jace, Elspeth, Leylines, Helms, Hero of Bladehold, and such.

0-4 Punishing Fire: I once played 4 Lightning Bolts and 4 Punishing Fires, and it was good. This was, however, before Abrupt Decay became a card.

What is good and what is bad about Punishing Fires? First, the good:

You have a reoccuring source of damage. Punishing Fire, in multiples and with a lot of mana, is incredibly effective as a viable end game.
More removal for stuff that is annoying, including Dark Confidant, Deathrite Shaman, Stoneforge Mystic, various aggro creatures, and so on
Good planeswalker solution, especially Liliana. Jace is only slightly more resilient since he can tick up with 2 counters.
If Lingering Souls becomes ubiquitous, this is a great way to snipe those damned tokens.

And now, what is bad about Punishing Fires

You need to find space in the deck without weakening an aspect. You can either exchange it for Lightning Bolt or Abrupt Decay, which seems the easiest solution, or you can run it alongside them.
Two mana for two damage is not exactly something to get excited about.
Deathrite Shaman and Wasteland are very popular
Your mana base is weaker. You cannot fetch Grove of the Burnwillows, and thus need to play at least 2 or 3, most likely 3.

I have seen people remove Wastelands to fit in Punishing Fire, and I think that is a mistake. As I mentionned above, in the mana lands section, you have 3 lands that are sort of floaters, and you can certainly put in Groves in that spot.

Both Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay, I think, are better, but again, Jund is a deck that functions best if tailored to the pilot. It is not wrong per se to trim or eliminate those cards for Punishing Fires, and if your metagame asks for it, certainly go ahead. I am just saying I would not play less than 4 Lightning Bolt if I could help it.

3-4 Liliana of the Veil: For long I have advocated one thing: if Jace is the God Emperor of Planeswalkers, then Liliana is the god-damned Empress. No one I know actually disagreed with me, but people keep underestimating how absolutely devastating she can be.

First of all, unlike all other non-Jace Planeswalkers, she has three relevant abilities, not just two and a meaning-less game-ending Ultimate that you only activate when you won the game anyway. Her Ultimate comes into play a lot sooner than most, and given the way she works and Jund is build, you will get there a lot. She only costs three, which is insane. She can come down on turn 2, thanks to Deathrite Shaman, and she single-handedly wins the game. You are rarely required to discard something relevant, and she is your out to many problems, such as incremental advantage cards of control and the broken combo pieces.

Where is Liliana bad? Never. It really is that simple. At worst, against brutal streamlined decks like Show and Tell and Burn, she's a Time Walk. At best, even then, she can take over the game. Show and Tell needs two cards to function, and if you can land her and use your discard to lower their hand size, you are in business.

People mention Lingering Souls. I question why they bring it up. Yes, she is not stellar against it, mostly because both her abilities do very little against it. This is all true, but it is irrelevant. Not very many decks play it (Wijaya's deck in Denver did, and Cox lost to it, but it happens), and you can always side out a couple of Liliana. Lingering Souls is a pretty damn good card against you, but it's not because of Liliana.


Chapter 4: Discard and miscelaneous

There are three cards that are relevantly used in Jund maindecks that fit the pattern of straight discard:

Thoughtseize
Inquisition of Kozilek
Hymn to Tourach

Depending on your removal and creatures, you can fit anywhere from four to seven discard cards in the maindeck. The question is, which of the three is best? Let us take them one by one.

Inquisition of Kozilek is my personal favorite, although it seems to have fallen out of favor with the printing of, you guessed it, Abrupt Decay. The reasoning (by Drew Levin I believe), is that you already have ways to get rid of stuff with casting cost 0 -> 3. This is true, and it is quite possible Thoughtseize is the correct choice.

The issue becomes your life. Decks in Legacy have the very annoying ability to lower your life significantly out of nowhere, or effectively overwhelm you when at low life. Between burn, Dark Confidant, fetch-lands, and Thoughtseize, your life could disappear in a moment. I am a great fan of Inquisition of Kozilek. Every Thoughtseize means one less spell needed for your Storm opponent to kill you. This is not trivial. Often, Storm players will have an easier time casting one less spell, and more crucially, they will have a much easier time SEEING the play-line. This is not often considered, but it is true. Storm players will lose to themselves more than any other players, and every bonus -2 life you can give them will help them exponentially.

Out of the cards that Inquisition does not hit, well, you can just see above, in the "What doesn't Abrupt Decay hit" section. They are still a very serious concern.

Hymn to Tourach is a card that goes in and out of decklists more than almost any other card, including Force of Wills. One week, people are extolling the virtue of how good this card is, and the next, they are saying it is absolutely horrible.

Think of it this way. It's a 2-for-1, and people are removing Force of Will (the defining card of TWO formats) saying it's a bad card... because you 2-for-1 yourself. I am a great proponent for Hymn to Tourach. You have such a reach against most decks, with the ability to generally remove anything, that Hymn can just WIN the game for you right away.

At the beginning of this rant, I said that there are four to seven discard spots in your deck (not including Liliana), and sometimes this could affect which cards you choose. You also could store discard cards in your sideboard (against certain decks where your board removal is useless), so this further impacts what you can use.

Thoughtseize over Inquisition comes down to how many times you think you will face aggro and burn over blue control or combo. Evaluate, and add accordingly. A 2/3 split (either way) also works, but you will sometimes stumble upon an Inqusition late-game when you really want a Thoughtseize. Generally, discard, especially Inquisition, lose potency over the long game, so that's another thing.

If you have seven spots, use 4 TS/IoK and 3 Hymns. Curving your discard on turns 1 -> 3 (culminating with Liliana) is obscene, and will probably win you the game if you can somehow deal with their turn 1 play, if they sneaked it by. You probably can.

4 or 5 discard probably means no Hymns, unless you want to JUST use Hymn to Tourach. It could work.


1-2 Sylvan Library: Not much to be said other than what I said above. Free Sensei's Divining Top, possibly a free Ancestral Recall, this card can single-handedly win you attrition match-ups.

So why only play 1? The theory is that multiples suck, especially when you draw them. This is true, but remember a few things:

You can discard it to Liliana.
If you don't draw it in your opening hand, your first Sylvan will ensure you never draw it.
Your library CAN be killed or countered, and people do so judiciously.
You can go look at 5 cards with two Sylvans. Since you need to resolve the triggers separately, you will need to pay 4 life to see one extra card, or 8 to see both.

All in all, if you have the space, it is not a tragedy to play two of this incredible card.

0-2 Life from the Loam: When I saw the Dredge mechanic spoiled in the original Ravnica, I was besides myself. It does WHAT?

Wizards R&D claimed they would have to be hit by the bus to print something like Mana Drain again. They sure got hit by lots of busses since, it seems. Dredge, as a mechanic, is broken. Life from the Loam, as a card, in a format with Wasteland, is doubly so.

This is not Aggro Loam. You do not have endless Cycle-lands to build an engine around. Life from the Loam functions strictly as a bomb that will allow you to thin your library with fetchlands, wasteland your opponent down to no non-basic lands, and protect your lands, getting them back if they want to play the land destruction game. Thus, Life sucks in multiples, far worse than Sylvan, but with two instead of one, you have a greater chance to draw it in the matches where it matters most.


Chapter 5: Lands

4 Wasteland: As I ranted about above, Wasteland is such a core card in this format, one could almost say it defines Legacy. Playing less than four is madness.

One adage that people adhere is the importance of your lands is directly proportional to how many Wastelands you are playing. If your lands are less important than your opponents, play more Wastelands. The reverse is also true. I do not agree with this completely, but it can be true. Your effifient removal allows you to attack their mana base while using your life as a buffer. This is especially true against BUG or RUG, decks where you can kill any of their permanent lands.

Bloodstained Mire
Verdant Catacombs
Wooded Foothills

Fetchlands are another core of Legacy, and people debate what to play with them. In Modern, without Wasteland, your Deathrite Shamans are a liability sometimes, thus requiring you to play more. In Legacy, this isn't the case, so you do not need to go overboard.

I believe 9 fetchlands is the correct number. Depending on your build, you could try 3 each of the above if you have all three basic lands. If not, adjust accordingly, but remember, your deck needs black the most, then green, then finally red. Something like 4/3/2 or 4/4/1 of the above is probably correct.

Mountain
Forest
Swamp

Badlands
Bayou
Taiga

With 4 Wastelands and 9 Fetchlands, you have about 11 actual lands that produce mana. You need to split them amongst those two categories.

A default group would be one of each basic land, two of each dual lands, and I do not recommend going below this number for each. You want basic lands to fight off against aggressive decks packing wastelands, because you want your removal and discard to always be live. You need dual lands because of cards like Liliana and either BBE or Huntmaster will put a strain on your mana, especially the double black of Liliana.

The final two lands I recommend to be a swamp, and another Bayou or a Badlands. This will give you enough black to be effective, and not skimp on the other colors. In some match-ups, if you get Life from the Loam, the basic forest becomes critical.

[razvan]

Chapter 6: Sideboarding and Match-ups

It is hard to set up a sideboard in a primer, because so much changes. I will talk about each match-up that is relevant first, then list some cards that are useful. I won't bother grouping the decks in fair and unfair, because I do not necessarily believe that helps in sideboarding.

For the sake of abbreviation, I will use the acronym REB when referring to either Red Elemental Blast or Pyroblast. Pyroblast is better if you use Bloodbraid Elf, as you can cast it doing nothing and still have it end up in your graveyard for Deathrite Shaman or Tarmogoyf.


Show and Tell

Might as well delve into the big one. Show and Tell wins in various means, be it Hive Mind, Sneak attack, Omniscience, or just by putting in a huge monster into play.

Depending on their strategy, your game can be really hard or really easy. If they plop down an Emrakul, and you happen to have a Liliana you can cast next turn, thank them for a 2 for 0 (you keep the Liliana and the card you put into play).

If they put down a Griselbrand or an Omniscience, well, things will get rough, and you do not want to let that happen. Sneak Attack has fallen a bit out of favor right now, but it is still there, and is probably your hardest thing to deal with, since they can also just hard-cast it and there is nothing you can do about it.

As a general rule, the more discard you have, the better. They have a devil of a time dealing with an active Liliana if they haven't gone of, and your pinpoint discard, and Hymns, will break them.

Good cards against them:

REB
Surgical Extraction
Krosan Grip
More Discard

Cards to sideboard out:

Abrupt Decay
Lightning Bolt

You put enough pressure with your control on them to make Lightning Bolt actually useless, as you won't try to race them. Keep them in if you don't have enough other things to take care of their stuff. Surgical complements your discard a lot, so if you have it, and I recommend you do, it can be very powerful. Finally, Krosan Grip can kill Sneak Attack, if they have it. Do not really bother bringing it in against Omniscience, but if they have no action, hey, congratulations.

Your Abrupt Decays can and should try to nail Lotus Petals in game one, and sometimes you can luck into a win that way, but I wouldn't hold my breath.


High Tide

High Tide really is another two-card combo deck, and it runs less actual protection but far more filtering than Show and Tell. They can win on turn 3 with Turnabout, but it is likely you have until turn 4, where their chance of fizzling is low.

Keep in mind that they CAN win without Time Spiral (unlikely, but possible), but they CANNOT win without High Tide, and conveniently, your Inquisitions do take that card.

Good cards against them:

REB
Surgical Extraction

Cards to sideboard out:

Abrupt Decay
Lightning Bolt
Wasteland

Do not bother with Candelabra of Tawnos. It is an excellent card for them, but like Show and Tell, don't bother with it. Your match-up is not that bad if you run a lot of discard, and REBs and Surgicals will make it even easier. If you have space for Lightning Bolts in your maindeck, leave them in to give you a chance to win one turn earlier. Take out a Wasteland or two if you want to keep the Lightning Bolts.


Storm

Storm is, in a nutshell, dependent on the pilot. Good storm players are a huge problem, less experienced players will fold to your discard. Depending on the build, you also will have a huge array of helpful sideboard cards, while they are unable to bring anything in.

Also, there are so many variations of Storm that you cannot possibly prepare for every avenue. It is better to try to stop their common ways, like Brainstorm, and disrupt their rituals.

First, know that they might have basic lands. If not, your Wastelands are great, such as against TES. You are generally unable to deal with them top-decking an Ad Nauseum. This can and will happen. The good news is that it is not trivial to win with very few cards in hand and zero storm. They can chain Lotus Petals, LEDs and rituals into a lethan blast with just one card in hand, yes, but it is unlikely, especially if you put pressure on them. There are tricks with Burning Wish and Tutors, especially if they start an Ill Gotten Gains loop, so don't durdle around, be as aggressive as you can. Their AN will rarely kill them, but your Lightning Bolts can be a surprise for them, so hedge them if you can.

Try to think of the quickest way to kill them, and cast cards accordingly. If they have 6 cards in hand, do not cast Liliana over a Tarmogoyf. If they have 2, then it is obviously a much better play. Think ahead, because they will, and make the best of every opening they give you. Every turn you live past turn 3 or 4 is a bonus.

Good cards against them:

REB
Surgical Extraction
Duress

Cards to sideboard out:

Abrupt Decay
Scavenging Ooze
1 land

They will bring in Dark Confidants, or more Empty the Warrens against you. You still have Lightning Bolts. Use them. Overall, there are worse things you could face than Storm.


Belcher / Spanish Inquisition

SI is a combination of Storm and Belcher, but unlike Storm decks, they have no filtering. They are a turn-1, all-in type of deck. What can I say, you have no Force of Wills, these decks pray on decks such as Jund.

Or do they? Well, there is not much you can do if they win the die roll and win on turn 1 both games 1 and 3, short of packing Leyline of Sanctity. Leyline is ONLY good against these guys and burn, so if you expect a lot of these decks, finding space could be good.

However, sometimes you will find that they will not be able to win on turn 1, and then your hand becomes important. Obviously try to have some sort of discard if possible (especially on the play), but also try to think about how you could win. Although these all-in decks cannot recover from a fizzle, it is possible, especially in the case of SI. Do not keep unplayable hands that do nothing until turn 4, and even then, are able to just cast a random BBE. Try to put early pressure on them, and hope to draw into more discard.

Obviously, turn 1 discard, turn 2 Hymn, turn 3 Liliana is a fine opening as well.

Good cards against them:

Surgical Extraction
Duress
Ancient Grudge

Cards to sideboard out:

Abrupt Decay
1 land
Lightning Bolt

You plan on them fizzling, minus the Duress. A timely Surgical could help as well. You bring in Grudges for Decays because they can sometimes cast a Charbelcher to avoid your discard, but still wait for mana.

Good luck.


Ichorid

Well, you know how it goes. Ichorid, in some sort of shape, has to exist for as long as the mechanic is legal. Hopefully, it will always be legal.

First, I like the name Ichorid for the deck. It's old-school, and sounds better than "dredge". So I will keep using it.

A lot of us came from Vintage, where Dred... I mean Ichorid... is a menace that requires a significant part of the sideboard to be dedicated to it. The very existence of Bazaar of Baghdad as an uncounterable way to get everything going sees to that. There is nothing even remotely close to anything as powerful as that in Legacy, so the deck doesn't inspire the same amount of horror as the big brother.

That being said, it *can* win on turn 1, something that Vintage Ichorid doesn't actually do. An opening of Land, 2 LEDs, 2 Faithless Lootings and 2 Golgari Grave-Trolls have happened. Yes, it sucks, but chances are this shan't be a regular thing.

So what can you do game 1? Well, Deathrite Shaman and Scavenging Ooze get some mileage. If you are able to go first, and they do not go crazy, you can certainly catch them with a weak discard effect or a weak discard in general on the back of the Shaman. Your Hymn to Tourachs are obviously weak, but your other discard could be effective at getting an LED or a Faithless Looting. Other than that, you hope they stumble or fizzle, because if they get going, they are nigh unstoppable.

Past game 1, you should have some sort of plan that will hopefully balance things out:

Good cards against them:

Surgical Extraction
Leyline of the Void
Nihil Spellbomb
Tormod's Crypt
Relic of Progenitus
Damnation
Pyroclasm
Maelstrom Pulse

Cards to sideboard out:

Hymn to Tourach
Thoughtseize

Generally, the more you have, the better it is. Graveyard hate, in all it's form, have to exist in sideboards, and you bring it all. You have a non-trivial amount of maindeck graveyard hate too, and it will certainly come in handy. As usual, try to see what they can do, and how you can best stop it. Remember to use Surgical Extraction in response to a lot of things, as their Narcomoebas and Bridge from Below have to be in the graveyard for their abilities to resolve. If you can remove Narcomoebas and the next best come into play creature, be it Ichorid, Bloodghast or Nether Shadow, you should be in good shape. You can also kill your own creature in response to a large set of Bridge from Below triggers to make nothing happen, but that's not of great help if they reanimate some sort of monster.


Elves

Yes, Forest, Llanowar Elf. Great, it's 1993 and we are all 12 again. Except, these people win on turn 3. Great, again.

Elves is a deck that you have a lot of interaction with, which is unusual for combo decks. You have discard (even Hymn is huge), and removal for everything.

It is difficult to provide an "order" of elves to kill. Everyone says Wirewood Symbiote, and they are not wrong, that card is enemy #1, as it can make your removal useless with self-bounce, and is part of the combo. Next is Heritage Druid, especially if paired with Nettle Sentinels. They can go infinite with that combination.

Any elf that makes mana if you have a surplus of removal at your disposal. A first turn Llanowar or especially Deathrite should get judiciously removed.

One of their aces is Natural order for Craterhoof Behemoth, which, as the name suggests, is a big deal. Chances are that you will be overwhelmed, so watch out for that. Always use your removal with that in mind, and count your life and their creatures.

Finally, Glimpse of Nature is their engine, and stopping it will make the game a lot easier.

Overall, Elves can go explosive, but you actually have interaction.

Damnation
Black Sun Zenith
Pyroclasm
Cursed Totem
Engineered Plague

Cards to sideboard out:

Huntmaster of the Fells / Bloodbraid Elf
Liliana of the Veil
Wasteland

Generally, your sideboard should have some sort of mass removal, and it all is incredibly live against Elves. Pyroclasm comes down early and cleans up, just make sure you use it before they go crazy. Damnation and BSZ are all-stars as well, and I have used them effectively against decks that have Knight of the Reliquary or Tombstalkers, or Hero of Bladehold.

Finally, Engineered Plague just wins you the game. If you have about 3-4 cards that are relevant against elves, your maindeck is strong enough to just plow through them.


Goblins

Goblins is always on the map, then off, then on again, then off again. Preparing for Goblins is simply pointless. If you have the removal you should against Elves, you will find they are simply an aggro version of the combo Elves.

They have a few threats you need to be aware of.

Siege-gang Commander is a serious problem. He attritions you down, he is un-Abrupt Decay-able, and can win in a top-deck. Goblin Ringleader and Goblin Warchief are their engine and fast mana, so watch out for those. Discard should be pointed at those two over anything else.

Finally, everyone knows the story of first-turn Goblin Lackey. If you have a way to deal with it, like Lightning Bolt or Deathrite Shaman, you should be ok.

The only thing Goblins has that elves doesn't are Wastelands and Rishadan Port. Aether Vial is also a card, but your discard will make it useless. I wouldn't really worry about it unless they have Wastelands and Ports to make it matter.

Sideboarding is the same as above, except Liliana is slightly better. You should be ok against Goblins as well.


Affinity

Affinity is generally not a problem, now that we have Abrupt Decay. This card single-handedly changed the game. They are about as fast as Elves or Goblins, except you have more interaction with them post-game 1, as Ancient Grudges, Krosan Grips and the like are coming in.

Not only that, their land is very vulnerable, unlike the rock-solid mana of Elves and Goblins. Really, you have so much that is good against them, you do not need any help.

Good cards against them:

Damnation
Black Sun Zenith
Pyroclasm
Ancient Grudge
Krosan Grip

Cards to sideboard out:

Huntmaster of the Fells / Bloodbraid Elf
Thoughtseize

Really, you have so much to bring in, pick their poison. If you fear their Etched Champions, you should keep your Lilianas in. They are fast, but they have so many vulnerabilities that Jund should prey on their deck.


RUG Delver of Secrets

In all honestly, your deck is designed to beat them. They have a good clock and they have disruption, but you have cheap and effective removal. Not to mention, they run all non-basics, and sometimes only have 6 actual lands that produce mana. If they do not have an early Delver, and you have Life from the Loam, there is almost no way you can lose. Game one, in fact, is a joke, as they have almost no way to deal with anything.

Game 2 (and chances are you won't need a game 3), they will bring in several things including Submerge, and maybe some graveyard hate, especially if they lost to Life from the Loam. If they do so, congratulate them on dead cards.

Sumberge can be a problem, however. They are moving towards some sort of singularity when all their cards are free, and in addition to it all, not being able to block with your Tarmogoyfs, and losing Shamans randomly, can push them slightly over the edge.

No matter though, the match is still easy.

Good cards against them:

REB

Cards to sideboard out:

Thoughtseize

This is not necessary. You just generally take out something that does damage to you to have a bit more buffer, and take out something to deal with Sumberge. Keep in mind that they will side in Sulfuric Vortex, so make sure you have a plan for it. Overall, they should not be a problem for you.

If you are facing the UR version, with more burn and no green, just realize that they are simply a slower burn deck with Stifles and Snapcasters. Slightly more problematic, but nothing you shouldn't handle.


Burn

Burn is a problem. Unlike the other linear decks, there is no way to interact with them. You can use your removal on stuff like Goblin Guide and Vexing Devil, but beyond that, you are at the mercy of their direct attacks.

Hymn to Tourach and Inquisition of Kozilek are all-stars, and if you get a hand heavy on those, you should be able to win, but other than that, I wouldn't really hold a high hope.

Dark Confidant is an interesting card here. First, look at it this way: you need to kill them before they kill you, minus Leyline of Sanctity. On average, their spell does 3 damage, so you have 7 cards that you can survive, 6 if you figure damage from fetchlands and such. Dark Confidant will do less than 3 damage to you, on average, and if you can make it block a Goblin Guide, it's great. Him dying is a bonus to your Deathrite Shamans.

Finally, you need luck, so you should hope he gives you lands while you naturally draw more stuff. He also helps kill them, so I wouldn't side them out, and might even try to aggressively use him.

Since their deck is about a third land, that would mean that 9-10 cards would be enough to win the game. Any discard spell is basically a Time Walk, and Hymn to Tourach is a Time Stretch!

Deathrite Shaman is not as effective as you think, because you would need dead creatures to gain back life. This is a very awkward scenario... as they run few to none.

Good cards against them:

Obstinate Baloth
Leyline of Sanctity
Umezawa's Jitte

Cards to sideboard out:

Thoughtseize

This is about the extent of cards that are useful against them. Really, you cannot afford to run Leylines, but Baloths could be a good idea now that Jund and BUG are gaining popularity. Finally, some Jund lists run 1-2 Jitte, and while I do not think that's an optimal card, if you have it, use it and hope.


BUG Aggro

This deck is a bit more annoying than BUG, but suffers from similar problems. They are generally unable to win as fast, and have an equally vulnerable mana base, although they run a couple more lands. They traded Nimble Mongoose for Deathrite Shaman, burn for Hymn to Tourach, and add Tombstalker as their big finisher, as well as have Abrupt Decay as their main removal.

They still run big blue cards and spend their turns durdling around with Ponder and Brainstorm, all the while giving you time to outmuscle them. Do not get me wrong, they are far more dangerous than RUG, but not having that little hexproof bastard is a great thing. Your removal is incredibly live, just watch out for Tombstalker. If you have a first turn discard, prioritize Hymn to Tourach above anything else, as it will put you into too big a hole.

Good cards against them:
Cards to sideboard out:

That's right, I wouldn't really get too much in or out. Your deck works fine against them. Their plan is to maybe bring in Sinkholes, especially when they are on the play, and maybe a graveyard hate card or two. Keep a stable mana base and just grind them out. They have nothing as powerful as your BBEs or Liliana of the Veil. REB is fine if you think they are going to go big blue against you.


BUG Shardless

These guys basically take the normal BUG sans Delver of Secrets, strip a lot of the anciliary stuff like Tombstalkers, Ponders, other random non Abrupt Decay removal, and shove in 4 Shardless Agents and 4 Ancestral Visions, and some Planeswalkers, mostly Jace and Liliana. They also have less of everything else, including Hymns.

Whereas you wanted to be the control deck vs. the other BUG, this time you are strictly the aggressor. Just go over them. There is very little you can do if they get to cast a Shardless Agent, just hope they do not hit Ancestral. They are slower and keep the terrible mana base of BUG, so your wastelands are incredibly good.

Good cards against them:

REB

Cards to sideboard out:

Random Assortment

You can safely ignore most of their stuff, but you really don't want to get them to resolve Ancestral. You can trim some cards like Lightning Bolt, since they only work on their Shamans and Jace, and you have Abrupt Decay and discard for those. They do run a couple of Liliana's you want to watch out for though.


Stoneblade variants

Best advice I can give you is to stick a Dark Confidant and protect it. Stoneblade is an excellent deck that sometimes gives you openings the size of the Soviet Union when they durdle around. Their Stoneforge Mystics are generally not going to do much because of your removal, and they are trimming on their Force of Wills because they cannot afford to trade 2 for 1.

Generally, they are mostly of the Esper configuration, which also means Lingering Souls. Most people piloting Jund are terrified of Lingering Souls, and it is a powerful card if you do not have Maelstrom Pulse. If you expect a lot of these decks, pack a couple in your 75. Most players will not expose Lingering Souls to graveyard removal if they can, so you do have time. A single Fog effect is a lot better than two, or even four.

The problem with Stoneblade, however... they are very good at stalling you. Gobs of removal into Snapcaster Mage into more removal, as well as pinpoint discard, sweepers and Jaces makes for a difficult game. Hymn and Dark Confidant, if they happen, are a huge advantage, especially as they run a lot of lands. Be as fast as you can and do not try, do not even think about, trying to play the control game against them. This is as pure a control deck as there is.

Good cards against them:

REB
1-2 Ancient Grudge

Cards to sideboard out:

Inquisition of Kozilek
Scavenging Ooze
1 Land

As loathe as I am to slow the deck down, you need to be able to answer their big things. Countering a Jace and dealing with their equipment is huge. Abrupt Decay is not as good as you think it is, so that might mean a cut. Ancient Grudge is very good, especially if you draw them both, as it means neither of their big ace equimpents will hurt you. Huntmaster and BBE are crucial against Jace.


Junk / Deadguy Ale / The Rock / GW Maverick

Well, here you have it. The most annoying of all matchups. You will learn to hate these decks a lot. And here is why:

Whatever you run, whatever you do, they run it better.

Lightning Bolt? They have Swords to Plowshares.
Abrupt Decay or Maelstrom Pulse? They have Vindicate.
Creatures? They have Hero of Bladehold and Knight of Reliquary. KotR has fallen out of favor, but it is very powerful if it can avoid Abrupt Decay.
Depending on the build, they have stuff like Elspeth, Knight Errant, equipment package, Bitterblossom, Lingering Souls, Hymn to Tourach, and even acceleration.
They have Green Sun Zenith to run a toolbox
Mother of Runes is still a card, and it is one of the few ways to shut down Abrupt Decay
They have Wasteland and a lower curve than you do, as well as mana creatures.

It is not a fun match-up. Whatever you do, they come on the top with something more annoying.

I group them all together because they are similar enough, run a lot of the same, and your game against them is also very similar. Obviously other decks (like Combo) have a much easier time against Maverick than they do against Deadguy, but you specifically do not. The best you can hope for is to out-aggro them, because you are certainly the beatdown. If you plan on playing the control game, you better have a good plan to make Dark Confidant survive a lot.

Good cards against them:

Ancient Grudge
Obstinate Baloth
Damnation

Cards to sideboard out:

Discard

Post board, you still want to be the aggressor, but it is good to have Damnation type effects against them, to clean up their board. They will develop their board faster than you can, and that is bad.


U/W Miracles

We come to the last two decks, and the first one is Miracles. Miracles relies upon the Miracle mechanic to miraculously win. Ok, I am done.

In all seriousness, Miracles is a very difficult match-up, and it would be a mistake to think it is simply Stoneblade.

First and foremost, they run Counterbalance / Top, which, due to Abrupt Decay is not a huge problem, but it is one none-the-less. Secondly, they run a lot of removal, including a one-mana Wrath of God, Swords to Plowshares, Detention Spheres, and the like.

Their win conditions are varied, but they either use Entreat the Angels, Jace, or Helm of Obedience / Rest in Peace / Energy Field, or all of the above.

Good cards against them:

REB
Koth of the Hammer
Ancient Grudge
Krosan Grip

Cards to sideboard out:

Trim cards

You can try to be faster, and you can try to attrition them, but you need to be prepared for their over-the-top bombs. Unlike Esper Stoneblade, their lands are more stable and more basic. Getting a Dark Confidant or a Sylvan Library early and sticking it will go a long way.


Jund

Then, we come to the mirror. Mirror matches are always difficult, especially for Jund where there is quite a bit of variation in the cards it runs. There are several things that will determine the result:

The first player to fire off the 2-for-1s, like Hymn to Tourach, Life from the Loam, Dark Confidant or Bloodbraid Elf
Winning mana wars, especially early Wasteland wars
Liliana of the Veil, especially double Diabolic Edict if possible
Better sideboard
Less pinpoint discard
Life management
Bloodbraid Elf flips

Games will go long. Very long. Life is important in the long run. Since both of you will be in top-deck mode before long, and none of you can deal with the top-deck, all you can do is have less dead cards, aka discard.

I could spend the rest of my life describing how to beat Jund with Jund, and still not be useful to anyone, so I won't. Someone is mad enough to put Lingering Souls in Legacy Jund too, and that is a pretty funky thing to do, but given that you usually want to be the aggressor, and Lingering Souls is good but not too fast, I am not sure that's a good idea. You sure will win grindy match-ups, like the last two decks I described.

Good cards against them:

Obstinate Baloth
Equipment

Cards to sideboard out:

1-mana Discard

You have to manage you BBEs carefully. If they have nothing, do not just cast one on an empty board. You can afford to have it flip a Liliana if you already have one, but if they have nothing, and you flip Abrupt Decay or discard, it's a bad deal.

Just take it easy, do not keep do-nothing hands, and judiciously kill their Dark Confidants and, to a lesser extent, Deathrite Shaman.


Chapter 7: Decklists

In this section, I will maintain two decklists. First, mine. Secondly, I will put the latest and best performing decklist. As of today, January 17th, 2013, I will use Pat Cox's GP:Denver 2nd place finish list.

Yes, mine. Generally, I try to play the optimal decklist as much as the next guy, but I also like to play with certain cards I find cool. Also, keep in mind that you can tailor the deck to your strengths, your metagame, and that goes doubly for your sideboard.

Pat Cox, January 5/6 2013, GP:Denver, 2nd Place

3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Liliana of the Veil

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Sylvan Library
4 Thoughtseize

3 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills

SIDEBOARD
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Duress
3 Engineered Plague
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Life from the Loam
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Pyroblast
2 Umezawa's Jitte



My decklist

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Scavenging Ooze

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library

4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Taiga

SIDEBOARD
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Duress
2 Damnation
3 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Obstinate Baloth


Chapter 8: The future of Jund

This is not a section that I intend to write a lot, and I plan on updating it with new spoilers from the new set, or new ideas or combinations that have not been tested.

However, since 2 of the 3 guilds have already been spoiled, only Gruul remains in Gatecrash, and so far, it doesn't seem to be too exciting.

I tried hard to think of a way Domri Rade can be played, and I have failed. He seems almost good enough in a deck with a lot of creatures, and if the format switches to that, he could be fairly good late game as removal (have a Tarmogoyf kill something, then attack?). But until that happens, he is not really anything to write home about.

Finally, Zuhair (zulander) will add a bunch of stuff as well, which I intend to put in the correct sections in this post.

[lyracian]

That was a great read; just one point I would like to make...


So why only play 1? The theory is that multiples suck, especially when you draw them. This is true, but remember a few things:

You can go look at 5 cards with two Sylvans

All in all, if you have the space, it is not a tragedy to play two of this incredible card.
You have to pay 8 life to see five cards! I think you should make that really clear to people reading this.

[razvan]

thanks. done so!

[LEH]

I'm surprised not to see mention of Punishing Fire and Grove of the Burnwillows combo seeing as Jund as it has such good synergy with Liliana as well as providing Jund with that little added removal/reach.

In regards to possible lands, I think mentioning Grove of the Burnwillows (obviously for PF combo mentioned above) and Volrath's Stronghold for creature recursion are strong lands that are seeing play in Jund currently.

I think the basics are there. Jund is either 2 for 1s or must answer threats. Maximising the potential of plays: for example, casting BBE only, as you mention, for value. In other words, anything he hits is strong, your opponent has a creature in play so hitting removal is good, your opponent has cards in hand so discard isn't a bad Cascade or you gain a creature. Also, holding a Liliana back if you have an option to cast BBE is usually the correct play (dependent on MU of course) so as when you do cast BBE you don't have a wasted Cascade should you reveal another Liliana (I only mention as a lot of decks seem to be running 4 Lilly).

[razvan]

I have tried Punishing Fire, it didn't seem worth it. It doesn't really help you with anything you aren't good against, except maybe a few more percentage points against something like UW Miracles. However, I will put it in shortly, it should be there.

[Lans89]

I won a local tournament with 3x Treetop Village instead of Wastelands and I've seen it in other versions as well. Jund with Treetops looks even more like Modern but should definatly be mentioned. Wasteland next to an active Deathrite Shaman in turn 2 is awesome, so I won't deny that's the correct choice in the deck. But in a meta where you could expect a lot of board sweepers (Deed, WoG effects, Terminus), like I did, Treetop Village can deal that last damage perfectly. The trample effect was also awesome versus the little lingering souls spirit chumpblockers facing my empty board!

And yes, Grove of the Burnwillows should also me mentioned in the primer =)!

Both give extra options to make your mana usefull even in the late-game.

The list I played:

Maindeck

4x Bloodbraid Elf
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
2x Scavenging Ooze

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Liliana of the Veil
2x Umezawa’s Jitte
1x Sylvan Library

3x Treetop Village
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wooded Foothills
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Mountain
2x Taiga
2x Badlands
2x Bayou

Sideboard
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Pernicious Deed
3x Hymn to Tourach
1x Red Elemental Blast
2x Pyroblast
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Engineered Plague
1x Ancient Grudge

[LEH]

I have tried Punishing Fire, it didn't seem worth it. It doesn't really help you with anything you aren't good against, except maybe a few more percentage points against something like UW Miracles. However, I will put it in shortly, it should be there.

I can definitely see where you're coming from, however, I think it shines in the mirror and strong against MUs like Stoneblade etc. where grinding them out is the best strategy. It's definitely a meta call, as it's poor against some MUs, but I feel Jund is definitely one of the better fit decks that run the combo due to having some synergy within the deck outside of the initial combo itself. I find that Wasteland has gotten much worse with Deathrite Shaman being everywhere and find running additional removal (in the form or PF) that takes him, Dark Confidant, Stoneforge Mystic et al. out, extremely helpful.

[.:saturno:.]

@marte: im testing ur list it's strong, but i have many problems with mana base, 20 lands is too few to support punishing fires combo.

[Jeff]

That was a great read; just one point I would like to make...

You have to pay 8 life to see five cards! I think you should make that really clear to people reading this.

You can fetch inbetween the resolution of the triggers, which isn't irrelevant.

[razvan]

As soon as I get the go ahead from nihil, I will make a new thread. I plan on keeping this up to date, and I can only do so in a new thread. I will also be able to add people's suggestions, including zulander's :)