Let me show you my Junk

[HorseshoeCrab]

Apparently the SCG forums are going away on some undisclosed date. The forums there were slow anyway, but the last few posters got the bad news when Star City unveiled the beta of their re-designed page... without a Forums link anywhere. I've heard mixed reviews of MTGSalvation, plus with the acquisition of their site looming you guys are the best choice that I know of. I already am a fan of these boards for all of the in-depth Legacy discussion.

First off, here's the current list:

4 Deathrite Shaman

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Tidehollow Sculler

2 Loxodon Smiter
1 Doran, The Siege Tower
1 Knight of the Reliquary

1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Temple Garden
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
1 Murmuring Bosk
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Treetop Village
1 Stirring Wildwood

2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Profane Command
4 Liliana of the Veil

SB: 2 Aven Mindcensor
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Hide // Seek
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Rule of Law
SB: 1 Spellskite
SB: 3 Stony Silence
SB: 1 Baneslayer Angel / Sigarda, Host of Herons

I've been posting about this deck on SCG for a while, and I will copy over some of the older posts that lead me to this current list.

The deck is basically Jund with White instead of Red. This gives me a huge advantage in the sideboard hate department, and I get (arguably) better removal in the form of Path To Exile. I also have access to a bit more beef than Jund (Doran and Loxodon Smiter) while having the same amount of disruption. Of course, there is a BIG drawback to going white, and that is Bloodbraid Elf. I don't get access to that extra card advantage. Whether that card alone is enough reason to stick with Jund, IDK, but for the great answer cards that White offers I'm going to keep Junk on my PTQ short list at the very least.

You may have seen my earlier posts on here with Martyr Of Sands decks, Bant, etc. I'm done with gimmicky, grindy decks. I want the most, best disruption that I can get my hands on, which is why I am trying decks with 10 MD discard spells instead of just trying to get there with quick Serra Ascendants (I count Liliana as a discard spell.)

Considerations right now:

In the MD

My 3 drops - Right now I'm trying 2 Loxodon Smiter, 1 Knight Of The Reliquary, and 1 Doran. Kitchen Finks is also a possibility. This is tough because I can make a good argument for ALL of these cards, but of course I have to choose which ones actually make the cut. Loxodon Smiter is pure value against enough opponents, and a solid always 4/4 creature otherwise. Doran is just a dumb beater, but he hurts both some of my creatures as well as some of the common creatures that I expect to face. My Thalias, Bobs, and Finks would be smaller, but so would my opponents' Bloodbraid Elves, Geralf's Messengers, Delvers, and Vendillion Cliques. Knight is awesome, but I definitely do not want a full set in this deck because of anti-synergy with Deathrite Shaman. Too often it is just a 2/2, but there are enough times where it is larger than Doran & Smiter to be useful. The tutor ability is also nice to have, so that I can get some of those Temple Gardens into play.

tl;dr: Kitchen Finks & Loxodon Smiter = always good, but never amazing. Knight & Doran, sometimes awesome, sometimes meh. What do you think? Should I keep the split, or go all-in on Smiters or Finks?

I don't want to cut all of my potential beef, so I really don't want 4x Finks. I could see 2 or 3 and then, say, 1 Doran and 1 Knight. That's basically what I have now with Smiters. If I do keep Doran or Knight in, I'm not going to go above 2 of either. Doran is still legendary, and if Knight is small I don't want to get stuck with too many of them.

Thalia / Tidehollow Sculler split - Both cards are very powerful and have their uses against multiple decks in the format, but Thalia in particular has been an issue for me. I'd love to curve into Liliana Of The Veil on turn 3, but unless I have a Deathrite Shaman and land in a GY to eat, Thalia stops that from happening. At the same time she buys me lots of time against Tron, Storm, etc. that I can use to play more disruption. Sculler is nothing but pure awesome, and although he doesn't provide a "permanent" discard spell, often enough I'm pairing him up with a Thoughtseize or Inquisition for a truly devastating turn of hand disruption. I'm thinking that if Thalia stays MD that I switch to a 2/3 split of Thalia/Sculler, flipping the numbers that I have now. I also considered swapping Thalia and Gaddock Teeg, running 2 Teegs main, and putting the Thalias in the side for later. Teeg would only hurt me with Profane Command...

Profane Command / singleton trump card - Profane Command is sweet against Jund particularly. It is going to be a two-for-one often, and it is also a way to fireball someone. Jund has reach with Lightning Bolt, and we do not. However, part of me thinks that this could be better as a Elspeth, Knight Errant, or maybe a Thrun.

Inquisition / Thoughtseize - Right now the deck has 10 discard spells: 2 Inquisition, 2 Thoughtseize, 4 Liliana, and 2 Scullers. This matches the # of discard spells that the Jund decks are running. I think I am going up to 11 with the Thalia/Sculler numbers swap, but I'm not sure if I want to change the split on Inquisition and Thoughtseize. Thoughtseize obviously hits more but also hurts my life when I am already Bolting myself often with this manabase. Yet there are enough 4+ drops that I have to hit to keep me from doing 4 Inquisition.

Manlands - I have 2 Treetop Villages and 1 Stirring Wildwood. These lands haven't hurt me too much so far. I have been slowed down, but the Villages in particular have helped me add extra pressure in some test games. I'm not going to cut these completely, but I also don't think that the Jund lists running 4 Treetops were correct. I'm still a deck that wants to curve out in the first three turns, so I'm happy with 2-3 manlands total.

In the SB

Hide // Seek - This card seems like a boss against Eggs and RG Tron. I can even use the Hide part with Deathrite Shaman in order to beat their Leylines Of Sanctity to that I still get to use discard spells. Is this effect good enough? More testing is needed.

Stony Silence - Probably going up to 4x. This card is one of the main draws to White in Modern. This card gives Tron and Eggs huge problems, and it makes Affinity's best cards useless. It even keeps Pod from working, forcing that deck to play with what it draws!

Rule Of Law - Not Ethersworn Canonist, because I expect Lightning Bolt or Pyroclasm or Firespout. This card will need to be bounced while my combo opponents are boarding in creature kill.

Spellskite - Might not be in here much longer. It was put in to deal with Twin interactions (change the target of Kiki-Jiki's ability to Spellskite, combo fizzled) and really to protect the other hate creatures from removal spells. It might still have a home in this deck, but there are lots of other great cards that also want the slot.

Rest In Peace - Same argument as Rule of Law, although Grafdigger's Cage is also great. Regardless, there will be some form of GY hate to deal with Storm, Eggs, and any Loam or random decks that show up.

Baneslayer Angel / Sigarda - This is my trump for creature-based matchups, mainly Jund. I'm leaning towards Sigarda because while Baneslayer has Lifelink, how does Jund kill Sigarda? They can't Terminate it, Lili it, Pulse it, Abrupt Decay it...

Cards that didn't make the SB but could in the future:

Leyline of Santity - 4 or 0
Burrenton Forge-Tender - anti-Pyroclasm & Firespout
Mortarpod - Surprisingly effective against a lot of random dorks, and was my tech last year. Too bad Deathrite Shaman is a 1/2...
more Loxodon Smiters - against Jund and decks like the UW Restoration decks that rely on counters to stop me.
Extirpate or Surgical Extraction - Deathrite Shaman kind of does these cards' jobs already, plus I have Rest In Peace

[HorseshoeCrab]

And here are some of the older posts from that SCG thread.

Sam Black was working on a Junk list initially in PT testing:

Junk Midrange
Featured by Sam Black on 2012-10-21 (Modern)
As written about in http://www.starcitygames.com/php/new...cle/25083.html

Maindeck:

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Loxodon Smiter
2 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Path to Exile
2 Zealous Persecution

Legendary Creatures
1 Doran, the Siege Tower

Planeswalkers
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Liliana of the Veil

Sorceries
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Lingering Souls
3 Thoughtseize

Basic Lands
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Swamp

Lands
1 Godless Shrine
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Marsh Flats
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
4 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:

2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Kitchen Finks
4 Stony Silence
3 Path to Exile
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize

-----------------

Some thoughts. It looks like Sam was going for more of a "1 to 3" type of deck. This is a deck that wants to hit Deathrite Shaman (I'm going to abbreviate to DRS from now on) or the Nobles and then be able to play one of the threes or a Lingering Souls on turn 2. My deck is trying to be disruptive while this list took more of a beat down approach.

I liked that Loxodon Smiter put a good clock on unfair decks. It basically felt like a better version of Jund to me.

Eventually I played the deck against Andrew Cuneo's Melira Pod, and I didn't really know how to try to win a game. It felt completely hopeless. Then I decided that his deck was basically doing the same things better.

Sam likes the Loxodon Smiters, and I would agree with running them MD if I was at that Pro Tour. Smiter is a great versatile card that will give Jund a hard time twice over (Lili can't +1 and this guy out beefs all of Jund's creatures other than 4/5+ Goyfs) AND improve the UW matchup (it beats Restoration Angel, and shrugs off any Remands or Cryptics.) I might end up running them in my list the more I think about them.

Sam's Melira Pod matchup was bad. I can understand that. I can also understand the notion that the Pod deck seemed to be a strictly better version of Junk. I can see why Sam would feel that way, but I have to disagree. The Pod deck is going to be slower by design. It can't start Podding anything until turn 3 at the earliest, and it has to run a lot of engine cards that Junk wouldn't have to worry about. This means that Junk can pack in more disruptive spells and be a bit faster, but at the cost of losing the awesome tutoring power behind Pod. I'm interested to see Cuneo's Pod list.

The biggest issue I saw with this particular list was that it played a lot of durdles. Lingering Souls is efficient, but doesn't solve any problems in Modern. Doran hurts some of your creatures, turning Confidants into virtual 1/1s and being just a vanilla dork otherwise. And yes, Zealous Persecution is nice with Lingering Souls tokens, but I don't think a winning plan is to attack with flying 2/2s. Maybe Sam would have seen better results with a list that ran more disruptive threats instead of these cards?

And why no Knight Of The Reliquary? I guess Loxodon Smiter took its place, but I'd still want at least a couple of her here for the late game.

--------------------------------------

Random techy options I was thinking of:

Baneslayer Angel: Take THAT, Jund! There are other options to fight Jund as well, but this card stops everything but Lili and Pulse (if they have it) and even Lili is stopped if I have another creature to use as a buffer.

Hide // Seek: The seek half can take out Eggs' win con no matter which one it is. This can also exile an Emrakul or other troublesome fattie from a Tron player's deck before they can search for it, take out a singleton Pod win con, mess with a Gifts package...

I probably am going for one Elspeth in the MD. It is a great trump that I wouldn't have access to if I was running Jund.

---------------------------------------

So I guess I will use this thread to compile notes and other Junk lists as well:

MTGOAcademy MTGO Academy 2h
(Chris) Messing around w/ #mtgmodern Here's Junk based on @CCalcano's #PTRTR deck (white SB hate credit @Nacatls4Life) pic.twitter.com/O2nCerYJ

Having Deathrite Shaman around might make Knight of The Reliquary awkward, especially if you eat more than one of your own lands over the course of a game. The question is: Is it better to get hooked up with a guaranteed 4/4, or go for the potentially larger creature that could also be as bad as Grey Orge? I think Loxodon Smiter is just the safer card right now, but I'm going to try a few configurations and splits between him and Knight before deciding what to use moving forward. Maybe Knight is just a 1-2 of?

The MTGOAcademy list from the tweet has no Lilis, but a full set of Kitchen Finks and 2 Dorans. It is a bit light on disruption, but I'm a fan of that manabase. Fulminator Mage might be the right choice if Tron and Valakut gain popularity.

----------------------------------------

Christian Calcano
Pro Tour Return to Ravnica - Modern

Main Deck
60 cards

1 Forest
1 Godless Shrine
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Murmuring Bosk
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Swamp
1 Temple Garden
3 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
22 lands

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Doran, the Siege Tower
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Loxodon Smiter
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Restoration Angel
4 Tarmogoyf
24 creatures

2 Abrupt Decay
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Path to Exile
1 Profane Command
3 Thoughtseize
14 other spells

Sideboard
1 Baneslayer Angel
2 Creeping Corrosion
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Spellskite
2 Stony Silence
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Thoughtseize
15 sideboard cards

Calcano won 7 out of his 10 Modern rounds with this list.

This is another of the "1 to 3" lists, Smiters over Knights, and nearly a full set of Doran instead of disruptive creatures MD. The singleton Noble Heirarch makes sense here with 12 3-drops that he wants to play early. Personally, I would like less three drops than that so that Bob doesn't Bolt me too often. The singleton Baneslayer is sweet!

There are so many good GY hosers available now in these colors that we can run singletons of a few of them instead of picking a few of one. This is marginally better against Echoing Truth. I'm probably NOT sticking with Dryad Militant as my main GY hoser, since my opponents should be playing Pyroclasm and such against me in post board games.

-------------------------------------------

Junk
A Modern deck, by Brian Kibler
298th place at a Pro Tour tournament in Seattle, Washington, United States on 2012-10-21
Print this deck!
Maindeck:

Creatures
1 Aven Mindcensor
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Kitchen Finks
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Path to Exile

Sorceries
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Thoughtseize


Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

Lands
1 Gavony Township
1 Godless Shrine
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Marsh Flats
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Temple Garden
1 Vault of the Archangel
4 Verdant Catacombs
Sideboard:

2 Batterskull
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Stony Silence
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Tectonic Edge

Kibler talks about his Junk list in his Premium article. His reasoning for the Lingering Souls was to have a card that generated virtual card advantage and something that would work well against Liliana (you still get half or the spell if you just flash it back.) Loxodon Smiter would have done the "make Lili's +1 bad" job as well. Kibler also talked about how bad he thought Knight was performing, saying that being a creature that doesn't have resiliency and doesn't impact the board when it comes into play isn't good enough anymore. If its just a vanilla dude, or even a dude that does something after it loses summoning sickness, it should be incredibly powerful. Are we really at a point where Knight isn't good enough for Modern? All signs are pointing to yes...

[HorseshoeCrab]

My Junk has been doing pretty good in testing:

I'm 50-50 against Angel-Twin-Pod (the new Birthing Pod deck with Restoration Angel and Kiki-Jiki, aka a million ways to combo out) preboard, but beating the deck 3:1 postboard. Ironically Aven Mindcensor has been terrible in the matchup, but that's because most of the games come down to Kitchen Finks-fueled grindfests more than anything. I think Torpor Orb might be the better card to use in this matchup, and Pithing Needle is also an option that can be used against other decks as well. This is also a matchup where having a Grafdigger's Cage would help.

Jund has also been even. Again, Kitchen Finks is a problem for me. Its great if I have Path, but if I don't then things are rough. Loxodon Smiter has been a big help in this regard, and Doran is an all-star in this matchup, so if Jund remains popular that is where I look to make changes. This matchup also makes me want to have either Mortarpod or Zealous Persecution in order to clear out opposing Bobs.

I'm crushing Storm. Deathrite Shaman of all things is the nuts against that deck. How does the combo of Thoughtseize plus Deathrite to exile a Past In Flames or Grapeshot sound? Add in all of the other discard spells, plus the good anti-storm cards from the SB, and this one is certainly one that I want to face.

RG Tron is favorable, but it really depends. I have to hit my discard spells or take out the Oblivion Stones and Pyroclasms before they are cast. Stony Silence of course is GG, since the only out RG Tron has (in current lists) is Oblivion Stone... oh wait.

So what I'm really working on is figuring out how good my SB cards actually are in real games of Magic. I'm learning that Aven Mindcensor, while great in abstract, is pretty bad in the Pod matchup because the Pod decks can just play creatures and never have to worry about going for a combo. Torpor Orb would make Kitchen Finks look like a joke, AND it would turn off Restoration Angel, aka the card that makes the deck combo out. It would also turn the UW matchup (not yet tested) into an easier matchup than I think it will be.

Loxodon Smiter is looking better and better. It is just big enough to out-class Kitchen Finks and actually all of Jund's team save for Goyf. The abilities are just gravy on top... Doran has also been better than I thought, while Knight has remained variable. I think Knight is leaving the deck for good. Sorry, babe. Its been a long run, but now its time to retire

Profane Command was clutch in 2 out of 3 Pod games where I drew it, and Elspeth would have been better in one of those games. Profane at 2 is just really strong, since that means something on their side dies and I get a Sculler or Goyf back. I have to do more focused testing to see if it stays or something like Elspeth takes its place. Profane will be better against "fair" decks, while Elspeth will help me win grindy games against control decks. Neither card will do anything in the combo matchups.

If this current list ends up doing poorly, then I have some ideas for tweaking it before ditching the deck. For instance, Thalia continues to be lackluster in most matchups. She needs to be a SB card, which is tough because there are too many cards that I want in the SB already. Something that I could do is cut the Thalias and trim some numbers to go for a CawBlade strategy. I can run four Squadron Hawks, which synergize with Liliana's +1 ability, and I could run a Swords & Steepshaper's Gift package to make the Hawks go the distance. I would have to find 7 slots for 4 Hawks, 1 Gift, 1 Sword of Feast & Famine, and 1 Sword of Fire and Ice, or 6 slots and just the Feast and Famine. This could be a better plan for Jund than Thalia, which hurts me as much as it hurts them.

Another plan is inspired by the Deadguy Ale decks from Legacy. Those lists run Lingering Souls and Hero Of Bladehold. IDK if that's better than what I already have, but like I mentioned earlier the Souls are another way to generate some much-needed card advantage. No matter what, I can't deviate from the original plan of having a lot of disruption. If I start cutting discard spells for more beaters, than I am just becoming a worse version of Jund.

The HorseshoeCrab from a year ago would have considered a hate bears strategy for this list, but the Crab of today knows better. You can't win with just 2/2s, and unfortunately there's no good way to guarantee that you will have the right hate bears in every game, or even if those bears are relevant in the match up. Not every deck folds to a Thalia or Gaddock Teeg. "Where's the beef?" is an important thing to consider if we are being realistic about winning a long tournament.

[HorseshoeCrab]

The coverage from GP:Lyon (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gplyo12/day2#9) has some useful nuggets of info. I forgot that Bitter Ordeal was a card, and it can take out multiple win conditions instead of just one like the Seek half of Hide // Seek can! Also that Maverick list with Wilf-Leaf Liege AND Loxodon Smiter looks really scary! I'd hate to be the Jund player against that :D

So there was an election that took most of my free time, but now that we're past that I'll be able to get back to testing. The more I look at this format, the more I want Loxodon Smiter. He's earned 3-4 slots in the deck. I'll have to figure out what I'm doing with the sideboard, because there are a LOT of great options depending on which decks end up being popular. Saying that there is any semblance of a "perfect" sideboard is a joke, because there is no way that everything can be accounted for. The best I can do with the SB is find the cards that are the most effective against multiple decks at a time so that I cover the most bases with only 15 cards.

Ex: Gaddock Teeg gives Pod, Storm, Tron, Gifts, Scapeshift, Death Cloud, and even Eggs trouble. Should I use only Gaddock Teeg to fight these decks? No. Should I still play a couple. Absolutely. The amount of decks that this card will force to answer with some sort of removal is huge, so the cranky old Kithkin remains viable.

At the same time Rule of Law stops Eggs, Storm, Dredgevine, and Living End, but it is a bit more narrow. It still gets a nod because IMO its the most powerful way to hose Storm and Eggs especially.

I will have GY hate, and I think it will be a split between Grafdigger's Cage and Rest In Peace. RIP is better against Eggs and the more focused GY decks like Dredgevine and such, while Grafdigger's Cage is a lower-impact investment (doesn't hurt me as much) that also makes it hard for Pod to combo out.

[HorseshoeCrab]

I had poor results from testing against Affinity yesterday. I won 30% of my pre-board games, and 40% of my postboard games. I played 10 preboard games, and still have several postboard games to go through. Granted, in only one of the postboard games I had Stony Silence. I did win that game.

Thalia hurt me a lot in most games in this match up, but it did really hurt Affinity in one game where I was on the play and Thalia was my turn 2 play. In most cases, however, she stopped me from getting crucial removal spells or Lilianas online when the first few turns are really crucial.

Speaking of Lili, she is way less effective against Affinity than against anything else. Affinity if defined by playing a bunch of durdles that team up to power a Ravager or Master of Etherium or huge Cranial Plating, so tapping 1BB to kill a Ornithopter isn't terribly exciting. I mis-boarded in hindsight now that I realize how terrible Lili has been. I kept her in in the first postboard games, but now I will cut her instead of the Loxodon Smiters.

Still, this matchup looks bad for team Junk. If it continues to be bad while also being popular, then my options include running a couple of Creeping Corrosions or adding a Kataki to the SB somewhere.

Another consideration is to run some number of Zealous Persecution. I <3 Mortarpod too, but Zealous is the better effect since it can potentially kill more than one thing at a time.

Doran was great in the games where I drew him. He actually seems well positioned right now against a lot of these other "fair" decks. Just blanking Cranial Plating was big game and helped me stabilize against a double Plating board. He also makes Signal Pest look like a chump.

Next up: Infect. I will test against the newest "Berserk Stompy" and see if my suite of discard spells helps, or if my matchup against this is the same as Jund's (poor.) This will be a matchup where I would really like access to Sudden Shock...

[HorseshoeCrab]

Slaughter Pact may also be a great option against Infect. I'll see if I need it after testing tonight. Or Darkblast. There are so many good cards that we could run!

[HorseshoeCrab]

Infect testing went really well. I want 7-3 preboard, and I'm even after boarding. Unfortunately their Spellskites are more relevant than any of my SB cards. This is another matchup that makes me want to run Zealous Persecution somewhere in the 75.

Other options that I found by reading decklists, Gatherer, etc.

Suppression Field: I always see a couple of these in SBs of Martyr and Soul Sisters decks. This card is hard to grok, but when you start to think about it, you'll see that this helps against Affinity, Eggs, Twin, & Melira/Kiki-Jiki Pod. Granted the abilities can still work for a little more mana, so this is not a permanent solution to anything, but it seems really good against so much right now. I really like that this card makes Inkmoth Nexus cost 3 to animate, which is something that Stony Silence could never do. Twin can't go off with this in play. It can make one or two dudes, which is not enough. Ditto with Eggs & Kiki-Jiki. Ravager's ability costs 2, Plating now costs three to equip, etc.

If Suppression Field goes in, then I may have to side out some Lilis or Shamans, because this affects those cards on my side. I also don't get cheap man-lands anymore. I still think that despite those shortcomings that this card earns a slot or two in my SB.

Golgari Charm - It does the same work of Zealous Persecution, but it can also be a protection spell or a Enchantment killer. The reason why I haven't tried it yet is because it will kill my own Confidants if I use that mode. It might still be the better choice.

Bitter Ordeal - I think this is better than Hide//Seek, since I can cast this for 2+ copies and take away both copies of Valakut, most of a combo deck's win-cons, multiple bombs from Tron in addition to the Emrakul, etc. It costs more mana and requires a fetch land or something else to get those Graveborn triggers going, but I am looking forward to seeing how the card fares in testing.

Current list:

4 Deathrite Shaman

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tidehollow Sculler

3 Loxodon Smiter
1 Doran, The Siege Tower

1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Temple Garden
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
1 Murmuring Bosk
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Treetop Village
1 Gemstone Mine / Razorverge Thicket / 3rd Treetop Village

2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Path to Exile
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Liliana of the Veil

1 Bitter Ordeal
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Rest in Peace
2 Rule of Law
4 Stony Silence
2 Torpor Orb
1 Suppression Field

You can see how hard it is to find room for everything in the SB now. Gaddock Teeg may have to go MD just to make room for all of the good spells that I can put here. Notice that Thalia is gone. IDK if that is right, but I think that keeping myself off of my removal has hurt more than it helped. I do want her for Storm, Tron, and Eggs, but she was actually terrible against Infect (they just spread out the pumps over two turns while you struggle to leave 3 mana open for Abrupt Decay or casting Liliana for 4 or Profane Command costs a million mana.) Instead I have the aforementioned Suppression Field as my 5th Stony Silence, Gaddock Teeg, and the other cards that combine to force my combo opponents to have hate besides Lightning Bolts and Pyroclasms if they want to go off. Oh, and they still have 12 discard spells to deal with :D

My disruption/beater ratio might be off now, so more MD tweaking is needed. I do think that Zealous has earned itself at least one MD slot, with a 2nd in the board if need be. Infect can shrug off one removal spell, but when I have two or more AND discard, its very hard for that deck to do anything. I also feel that I need Persecution as an out to Inkmoth Nexus, which previously only Path dealt with.

No more Profane Command. That card is sweet against Jund but has been pretty lackluster everywhere else. Maybe I will still run an Elspeth as a 4-drop because I do need the beef. 61 cards is also a possibility, although that seems a bit loose...

The numbers as they stand now:

- 12 MD discard spells, 8 of which are targeted
- 10 MD creature/permanent removal spells, 7 are instants and this doesn't count Liliana
- 4 creatures that only attack/block, and 4 others that conditionally are merely large bodies
- 2-3 man lands, and 3-4 lands that come into play tapped nearly every time

The deck as a whole is looking pretty good. I love that the discard and removal is so strong that I have a chance against everything. No matter what the matchup, in testing not much survives a Thoughtseize > Sculler > Liliana curve, and I feel so far ahead even if I go Deathrite > fetch, 2-drop & Path open or discard spell. I also have all of the best options for the SB since I have access to White.

I could see switching to some sort of U/w/x deck if testing shows the deck doing poorly. Suppression Field feels like a real winner, and I can run those with absolutely no consequence in the UW midrange list. Esper in particular is a tempting color combination as well as plain old UW.

[HorseshoeCrab]

Minor changes:

Zealous Persecution becomes Golgari Charm. The regeneration and Twin-hating enchantment removal wins out over the situations where I kill my own Dark Confidants when using this for the -1/-1 ability.

- 1 Abrupt Decay, +1 Dismember. I need a way to hit Restoration Angel and Baneslayer Angel.

What do you guys think about the Jund lists running Lingering Souls? I have toyed with the idea of playing a couple of those here, but they didn't seem to do enough. Remember that I am trying to AVOID the mistakes I made last year, which were that I played a whole lot of creatures that were great at attacking or generating CA in a format that cares more about big wins and the right answers than grinding small advantages. There is no Force of Will or Daze here, so its more important to be pro-active with answers rather than just play creatures and hope they get there...

I need help with the mana base. I need to go up to 23 lands to improve my odds of having two lands in each opening hand (from 80 to 85%.) This will really help out with mulligan decisions. I think a Liliana gets trimmed for the 23rd land, but a Smiter can go too although that takes me down to just 19 creatures total. I will not see Golgari Charm when I need to if I cut that to a 1-of. IDK what the right cut is. I'm thinking Isolated Chapel could be the 23rd land, or a 2nd Gemstone Mine.

I'm also torn on whether to run City of Brass or Mine in that slot. I went with Mine because I am already taking too much pain from lands and Bob.

[AlmostGrown]

I'm going to GP Toronto with 3 byes, and really want to metagame against the format. I think Junk/hatebears is where it's at. I've been reading the thread recently, and was wondering if you had any recent updates/advice/thoughts on the deck you haven't posted before.

Also: I think lingering souls is insane.

[HorseshoeCrab]

Lingering Souls IS insane for sure. I'm curious to see how people react to that card out of Jund in the next few weeks. I have a feeling that the card will be meta'd out or will become stock depending on how things go. For this deck I could see having 1 or two copies available, but then what gets cut?

- 1 Smiter, - 1 Sculler, + 2 Lingering Souls ?

Its worth testing. I don't think I'll have any major updates for a few days, due to various work/life things that are coming up for me. I would love to have a play test partner on Cockatrice if you're up for some games this weekend or next week? I'm trying to get in at least 10 games per night after work, so that I can get results for a new matchup every couple of days and see how things are going overall. If things don't work out with Junk then maybe Jund with White cards in the SB is the right call?

[HorseshoeCrab]

BTW, current list:

4 Deathrite Shaman

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tidehollow Sculler

4 Loxodon Smiter

1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Temple Garden
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
1 Murmuring Bosk
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Treetop Village
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Woodland Cemetary

2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Path to Exile
1 Dismember
2 Golgari Charm
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Liliana of the Veil

SB:
1 Bitter Ordeal
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Rest in Peace
2 Rule of Law
4 Stony Silence
2 Torpor Orb
1 Suppression Field

I added that 23rd land, trimming a Liliana, and replaced a Treetop Village as well with a pair of Innistrad lands. I didn't like any of the other options, and I really needed another W/B land over a G/W one. So far those lands have been no trouble at all, except for one awkward hand where I had both of those Innistrad lands as my only lands, and I drew my singleton Treetop Village on turn 2. That will not happen often :p

[HorseshoeCrab]

I played against Jund w/Lingering Souls, and the match up did get a lot harder for me to deal with. Liliana doesn't do much with a Souls around, and the little 1/1s can make combat that much more difficult. With new results (and a page taken out of Kibler's article) I updated the list. Time to fight fire with fire!

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Loxodon Smiter

1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
1 Murmuring Bosk
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Woodland Cemetary
1 Vault of the Archangel

2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Path to Exile
1 Dismember
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Lingering Souls

SB:
1 Bitter Ordeal
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Rest in Peace
2 Rule of Law
4 Stony Silence
2 Torpor Orb
1 Suppression Field

I put in 3 x Souls, and took out:

- 1 Liliana of The Veil: She's gotten worse with the latest batch of Modern decks. Now she's in the same bucket of cards that I want in some match ups, but not in others, so her numbers reflect the fact that I don't want to see her as often.

- 1 Loxodon Smiter: I might go back up to four and just do 2 x Souls. IDK which is right yet.

- 1 Tidehollow Sculler: I still <3 this card, but I don't need more than 1 per game. I might even cut another and fit in the 5th 1-mana discard spell, since I've noticed that I end up with too many 2-drops in hand in a lot of games.

I also replaced the Golgari Charms with Zealous Persecution. Zealous is the obvious choice over Charm now that I have my own armies of 1/1s, while still providing the same removal potential that Charm gave me. It may still be right to run Golgari Charm depending on how much Twin sees play, since it will help more against that deck than Zealous can. The regeneration ability from Charm will also be missed. I will have to test and keep note in games which of the cards I would have wanted more.

No more Treetop Villages. It didn't do enough to be worth the comes into play tapped drawback. Now I have Lingering Souls to provide reach anyway. I went up to 2 Horizon Canopy instead since that card has always been helpful when I have been land flooded. The Vault of the Archangel meshes well with Lingering Souls tokens, and I do get to five mana often in this deck. Maybe this should be Gavony Township, but at that point I could just switch to Kibler's GW "little kid" deck?

I still think that I have the best "Jund" build here, despite using White cards instead of Red. The more I test against Jund, however, the more I appreciate how often it can just take over a game from nowhere thanks to Liliana or a top decked Lingering Souls. I jokingly built a "Jundk" list that was my old Junk list with Bloodbraid Elf throw in. Maybe that's not such a bad idea? Jund is basically doing that right now!

I am weary of making this deck too Jund-like, however. I know that Jund has a huge target on its back, and the existence of decks like Kibler's "little kid" show that the deck can be badly beaten given the proper cards. I don't want my deck to suffer from general Jund hate, but right now I have some advantages that Jund doesn't in this hostile environment. Jund's Lightning Bolts give it more reach than I have, but those Bolts are also a liability against part of the Twin combo, Baneslayer Angel, Loxodon Smiter, and Restoration Angel. I don't have those problems since I have Path. Jund has a problem with x/4s, something that many decks are capitalizing on. I don't have to worry about that since I have Loxodon Smiter. Jund has to worry about cascades, so it can't run too much situational removal. I can.

Most of the best Modern decks are playing around Abrupt Decay. Twin has Mizzium Skin to make it fizzle. UW runs the best 4 drop in Standard (arguably in Modern as well.) Other decks also go over the top, protect against removal in general (see Welding Jar in Affinity) or ignore the card completely (every combo deck.) Ironically, Abrupt Decay is best against Jund, since it kills both Lili and most of their creatures! Maybe, and this sounds crazy, we should stop playing Abrupt Decay? In a Decay-less world, I could add another discard spell and go up to 2 Dismembers...

One last thing: If I was playing Jund right now, I would strongly consider some number of Sulfur Elemental in my SB. It kills Thalia and Lingering Souls tokens like a champ, makes Celestial Colonnade & Restoration Angel Bolt-able, and is (almost) impossible to respond to. It is the perfect trump for the mirror in next week's metagame. Will it still be good a month from now? Who knows? If Twin continues to pick up steam then Sudden Death is another nice-to-have, since that negates ANY of Twin's answers thanks to Split Second. It is a narrow card, but I could see it coming in against blue decks as well since it counts as an uncounterable or Angel-able way to off Restoration Angels and such.

[HorseshoeCrab]

Maybe Vault of The Archangel should actually be Gavony Township now that I've got some more games in. Vault didn't help out as much as I'd like, but Gavony would have made my 2/2s respectable. Its a tough choice, because both lands provide the same kind of marginal improvement in a late game.

Also, I'm definitely looking to add a third Canopy to the deck. Woodland Cemetery or Gemstone Mine jump out as lands that I can cut to fit Canopy #3 in. I will have less access to black mana than before, but I also have less intensive mana considerations now that Liliana is down to 2 copies.

Creeping Corrosion is only going in against Affinity, but Suppression Field goes in against a bunch of decks AND makes Affinity an easier matchup. I'm down to 1 Teeg because he is just going to die. He might be cut altogether. I feel like hate bears moving forward, since they are so readily hated out by every real deck's sideboards, should either be in the MD as a game 1 surprise (Kibler) or out of the 75 completely. One of my biggest mistakes in past Extended/Modern PTQ seasons was to rely on these little creatures too much when I was already playing creatures as my main plan. Of course I lost to Pyroclasms and Firespouts and O-Stones, etc.

I also found a compromise with the Dismembers. More Dismembers = good... sometimes :P

New SB:

1 Bitter Ordeal
1 Dismember
1 Gaddock Teeg (probably going to be a Relic of Progenitus)
2 Rest In Peace
2 Rule of Law
4 Stony Silence (still a boss)
2 Suppression Field (my tech MVP so far)
2 Torpor Orb

About Suppression Field, this card makes Liliana bad, the 1-of Gavony Township or Vault of the Archangel bad, and fetchlands especially bad. However, that's not an excuse to use this card if it hurts the opponent more (Affinity now has to pay 2 to sac a artifact to Ravager? It costs 3 to animate a Inkmoth Nexus? 3 to equip Cranial Plating, etc.) Also, the card exempts mana abilities (or else lands would get real awkward) so Deathrite Shaman's top ability still costs just "tap" while his lower abilities cost 2G/2B. I would bring the Fields in against Affinity, Twin, Pod, Tron, and Eggs.

I haven't had Bitter Ordeal in hand often enough to know if its any good, so I think next time I'll stick it in my opening hands in playtest games against Tron, Valakut, Eggs, Gifts, and maybe Storm? It might even be good against Pod to take out whatever misers' junk they bring in for us. The key with that card is to see how often Gravestorm get to two and above. I'll have to play a little differently (cracking fetches on Upkeep, etc.) but I think I can reliably get Gravestorm to two when I have this card.