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Fry
12-12-2012, 01:00 PM
I absolutely love playing Death and Taxes in Legacy and I wanted to transfer the idea to Modern since I figured it could work. Obviously some parts aren't legal because of age(Mother of Runes, Swords to Plowshares, Karakas, Rishadan Port, and Wasteland) and Stonforge Mystic is banned. Even with those cards out of the pool, I figured there were viable substitutes and other ways of maximizing Mangara's evilness... Without further ado, here's my initial list that's been tested minimally, but with excellent results.

Main Board:
3x Aven Mindsensor
4x Flickewisp
4x Leonin Arbiter
4x Mangara of Corondor
4x Path to Exile
3x Restoration Angel
4x Serra Avenger
2x Stonecloaker
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x AEther Vial
4x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Eiganjo Castle
4x Ghost Quarter
3x Tectonic Edge
13x Plains

Sideboard:
2x Celestial Crusader
3x Celestial Purge
3x Ghostly Prison
4x Leonin Relic-Warder
3x Temporal Isolation

The side has really been tested, but I think it would work fairly well. Let me know your thoughts and opinions, all CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is appreciated and welcomed for the sake of making this an established deck.

~Fry~

joemauer
12-12-2012, 03:01 PM
I am interested.

All I can advise at the moment is Ethersworn Canonist versus Bloodbraid Elf and Storm.

Fry
12-12-2012, 04:33 PM
Canonist is good, of that there is no doubt. I think that it shines best in Legacy though. I can see putting it in the side in the future or depending on the expected meta. For now though I think that the Thalia in conjunction with the land detruction of Tectonic Edge and Ghost Quarter(hindered even more by Arbiter and Mindcensor) if they try to use padt in flames there's also Stonecloaker.

The comment you had is valid by all means, but I'd want to test that match up before I say anything other than mere theorizing.

Fry
12-12-2012, 05:35 PM
I also just thought of Burrenton Forge-Tender, it just says no to Pyroclasm and Volcanic Fallout.

trivial_matters
12-12-2012, 08:59 PM
Kataki, War's Wage might deserve a place in the sideboard.

EDIT: Stony Silence too.

nedleeds
12-13-2012, 02:00 PM
I played mono white vial and white with black splash vial in Modern a few times with good success. A few cards you aren't using in white that I liked were

- Kor Skyfisher (It's Rescue with a Vial on 2 ... has nice synergy with a bunch of cards in the deck and is an evasive weapon holder)
- Grunt (presuming you play Flickerwisp and/or Kor you can reset him and he's going to outclass Goyf and KotR)
- Forge Tender (this card is a total beating vs. rwu or Jund)
- Icatian Javelineer (really nice vs. Bob, Clique, SCM, Steppe Lynx)

I also played equipment.

Edit: I also *hate* playing path in this deck. I hate path period in any kind of man fight deck. I know it is what it is in Modern ... but I might even play Oust or Dismember instead. I understand is you have arbiter or AMC it's great times but rampant growthing the aggro decks in this format is miserable.

My W/b list is below. Black means losing the Arbiter tricks but you get good disruption with Sculler and the only real card draw in the format in Bob. You also get man removal that isn't path.

4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Godless Shrine
2 Isolated Chapel
7 Plains
4 Marsh Flats
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Jötun Grunt
2 Mangara of Corondor
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Flickerwisp
4 Icatian Javelineers
2 Dismember
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Kor Skyfisher
4 Serra Avenger
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Dark Confidant
2 Oust
1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 Burrenton Forge-Tender
SB: 2 Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 Stony Silence
SB: 2 Deathmark
SB: 3 Extirpate

Fry
12-13-2012, 04:57 PM
Nedleeds:
The Skyfisher didn't even get considered... I didn't think of it. Taking the Restoration Angels out for them would lower the curve and add a cmc 2 trick on the vial with mangara. Tha javelineer was another card I didn't think of and very well may have a couple spots to aquire. I use Grunt in my side in Legacy and I like it there and I can definately see it having a place in Modern. As I said a little earlier, I've have rather limited testing with the deck and I can't make definitive statements with that in mind. I had Forge-Tender main in Legacy as a 2 of for a little while there when red was just about everywhere. Combos nicely against Progenitus and SoLaS. I haven't had any problem about ramping my opponent with the Path, having 7 creatures that make that considerably harder is fantastic, Ghost Quarter also has been a star with them in play, basically a Strip Mine at that point.
I'll definately take into consideration your suggestions and give a few things a trail run.

Mr. Safety
12-13-2012, 08:53 PM
I helped a friend develop this deck for his local scene...and it was really well placed. He also used Grand Abolisher as an additional hatebear. He was all loaded up on hatebears, with Leonin Arbiter being the best of the bunch. It's the only deck in Modern that can play Wasteland (actually Strip Mine...) because of Arbiter and Aven Mindcensor.

Imagine if Stoneforge was legal...would make the deck amazing.

abetman
12-13-2012, 09:08 PM
I helped a friend develop this deck for his local scene...and it was really well placed. He also used Grand Abolisher as an additional hatebear. He was all loaded up on hatebears, with Leonin Arbiter being the best of the bunch. It's the only deck in Modern that can play Wasteland (actually Strip Mine...) because of Arbiter and Aven Mindcensor.

Imagine if Stoneforge was legal...would make the deck amazing.

I'm suprised that familiar isn't on the list. What do you guys think of True Believer as another sb or even a mainboard hatebear?

jarvisyu
12-14-2012, 09:54 AM
I think now is probably the wrong time to approach a deck like this because of people adopting Izzet Staticaster and (Sulfur Elemental) as a response to fighting Lingering Souls. In addition, having no way to tutor up equipment efficiently is a huge problem for decks like these (Yes, I know Godo and Stonehewer Giant exist...) since all of your creatures are underpowered.

A Martyr-based build of these decks always seemed better to me, and actually do beat Jund more often than not (since Ranger of Eos is incredible there).

Mr. Safety
12-14-2012, 02:22 PM
Steelshaper's Gift

nedleeds
12-17-2012, 01:30 PM
Having no good draw and no good tutors and no good filter is what Modern is. You fan your opening 7 and that's what'll likely win or lose you the game. Not having SFM doesn't make equipment useless.

TraxDaMax
01-15-2013, 04:53 PM
Kor Skyfisher off a vial is tech. It's your Karakas in Modern. Together with Mangara and Oblivion Ring you can build some awesome card advantage with it.

arcboundravager2
01-28-2013, 11:55 AM
this is the list ive been playing for a while with a lot of success
// Lands
15 [SHM] Plains (2)
4 [ISD] Ghost Quarter
4 [WWK] Tectonic Edge

// Creatures
3 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 [PLC] Stonecloaker
3 [MBS] Leonin Relic-Warder
4 [SOM] Leonin Arbiter
4 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
4 [RTR] Dryad Militant
4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker

// Spells
2 [FD] Steelshaper's Gift
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
4 [ARC] Path to Exile
4 [DS] AEther Vial
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [BOK] Hokori, Dust Drinker
SB: 3 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 3 [SOK] Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 2 [CFX] Mark of Asylum
SB: 4 [M12] Grand Abolisher

Davran
02-01-2013, 09:39 AM
this is the list ive been playing for a while with a lot of success
// Lands
15 [SHM] Plains (2)
4 [ISD] Ghost Quarter
4 [WWK] Tectonic Edge

// Creatures
3 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 [PLC] Stonecloaker
3 [MBS] Leonin Relic-Warder
4 [SOM] Leonin Arbiter
4 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
4 [RTR] Dryad Militant
4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker

// Spells
2 [FD] Steelshaper's Gift
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
4 [ARC] Path to Exile
4 [DS] AEther Vial
1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [BOK] Hokori, Dust Drinker
SB: 3 [M11] Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 3 [SOK] Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 2 [CFX] Mark of Asylum
SB: 4 [M12] Grand Abolisher

Out of curiosity, which match ups is Hokori for? It seems like a really unique choice, and I'm curious how it works in the list. Also, given the recent banning of Seething Song, is Leyline still useful in the sideboard?

Otherwise, I like the way this list looks and I'm probably going to give it a shot. What is your strategy vs. Kiki Pod? I have a feeling there's going to be a lot more of that deck running around now.

Phoenix Ignition
02-01-2013, 02:08 PM
Otherwise, I like the way this list looks and I'm probably going to give it a shot. What is your strategy vs. Kiki Pod? I have a feeling there's going to be a lot more of that deck running around now.

With that list you get Aven Mindcensor + Leonin Arbiter to screw them up, but if you want more things my favorite sideboard in the format right now is Stony Silence, and you could always throw in Ghostly Prison to synergize with all of that land hate. Don't forget Rest in Peace either, that card is nuts.

Davran
02-01-2013, 03:40 PM
With that list you get Aven Mindcensor + Leonin Arbiter to screw them up, but if you want more things my favorite sideboard in the format right now is Stony Silence, and you could always throw in Ghostly Prison to synergize with all of that land hate. Don't forget Rest in Peace either, that card is nuts.

Good point about Mindcensor and Arbiter...I'm feeling pretty dumb for missing that this morning.

Stony Silence does seem pretty good vs. the meta, but it hoses vial and the swords pretty hard in the above list. I think Kataki, War's Wage is the right card for the affinity match up. Rest in Peace is great too, but are there really a bunch of dedicated graveyard strategies out there given how pervasive Deathrite Shaman is? Storm is toast thanks to the Seething Song ban, and Gifts + Unburial Rites has been "bad" since Shaman was printed. Am I missing an archetype?

Phoenix Ignition
02-01-2013, 04:28 PM
Am I missing an archetype?

No, but you are overestimating how much DRS has done against graveyard strategies, and also, until UR storm is actually not played anymore I'm not going to believe the "Seething Song is banned, now the deck is unplayable" people. That deck didn't need Seething Song in order to win, just like how UR Storm was still a deck after they banned Rite of Flame.

Anyway, as for Gifts, it is most definitely not bad. Any deck that plays it is a control deck, and they all have many kill spells for things that could get in the way (like DRS). The field isn't 100% decks with DRS, either, so decks with Gifts are good against a lot of things (like affinity just dies to Elesh). DRS also hasn't stopped a lot of random Lotleth Troll + Bloodghast + Gravecrawler + Vengevine self mill decks that I've seen a lot online, as generally just removing 1 card from their graveyard isn't enough to stop them from beating you to death.

In addition to that, RiP helps against decks with Eternal Witness + Snapcaster, or decks that rely on persist creatures, or Tarmogoyf + lingering souls, or even Grim Lavamancer. It's a decent catch-all against some deck's threats, while being a 1-card win against the weird graveyard decks.

r3dd09
02-02-2013, 12:13 AM
I'm starting to play modern again due to the BBE banning. I'll build this deck and see how it goes in my meta. scapeshift and pod is the main decks being played right now. Seems decent.

arcboundravager2
02-02-2013, 07:29 AM
Out of curiosity, which match ups is Hokori for? It seems like a really unique choice, and I'm curious how it works in the list. Also, given the recent banning of Seething Song, is Leyline still useful in the sideboard?

Otherwise, I like the way this list looks and I'm probably going to give it a shot. What is your strategy vs. Kiki Pod? I have a feeling there's going to be a lot more of that deck running around now.
its for any control/tron matchup. i love it. if it enters play you win. as for leyline, it to prevent disruption.

arcboundravager2
02-02-2013, 07:32 AM
Good point about Mindcensor and Arbiter...I'm feeling pretty dumb for missing that this morning.

Stony Silence does seem pretty good vs. the meta, but it hoses vial and the swords pretty hard in the above list. I think Kataki, War's Wage is the right card for the affinity match up. Rest in Peace is great too, but are there really a bunch of dedicated graveyard strategies out there given how pervasive Deathrite Shaman is? Storm is toast thanks to the Seething Song ban, and Gifts + Unburial Rites has been "bad" since Shaman was printed. Am I missing an archetype?

ok so ive played this list for quite a while and i love the affinity matchup. they always make like 4/5 artifacts turn one and if your turn 2 play is kataki, they shit themselves

Davran
02-04-2013, 09:31 AM
ok so ive played this list for quite a while and i love the affinity matchup. they always make like 4/5 artifacts turn one and if your turn 2 play is kataki, they shit themselves

Yeah, I really like this potential interaction.

I'm thinking about something like this for a sideboard:

3x Hokori, Dust Drinker (control, tron)
3x Kataki, War's Wage (affinity)
2x Mark of Asylum (RUW Delver, Jund?)
4x Grand Abolisher (control, RUW Delver?)
3x Relic of Progenitus (goyf decks, graveyard decks)

The relics should probably be Rest in Peace...but I don't actually own any right now, so Relic will have to do. I think they'll be fine since Dryad Militant is in the main deck in case Storm isn't actually dead.

I'm also considering replacing the Mark of Asylum with Suppression Field since Suppression Field is decent vs. Twin, Tron, and Pod. It doesn't work all that well with Vials and Swords...but that might be ok if I'm hosing my opponent enough. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

arcboundravager2
02-04-2013, 01:06 PM
Yeah, I really like this potential interaction.

I'm thinking about something like this for a sideboard:

3x Hokori, Dust Drinker (control, tron)
3x Kataki, War's Wage (affinity)
2x Mark of Asylum (RUW Delver, Jund?)
4x Grand Abolisher (control, RUW Delver?)
3x Relic of Progenitus (goyf decks, graveyard decks)

The relics should probably be Rest in Peace...but I don't actually own any right now, so Relic will have to do. I think they'll be fine since Dryad Militant is in the main deck in case Storm isn't actually dead.

I'm also considering replacing the Mark of Asylum with Suppression Field since Suppression Field is decent vs. Twin, Tron, and Pod. It doesn't work all that well with Vials and Swords...but that might be ok if I'm hosing my opponent enough. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

i actually played supression field for a while and i can tell you that other decks play through it much better than you do. its actually miserable

Davran
02-04-2013, 02:43 PM
i actually played supression field for a while and i can tell you that other decks play through it much better than you do. its actually miserable

Thanks for the heads up! It seems like it would fit here since it's pretty much the definition of "taxing", but I thought that it might be too much given how much we want to use Vial and all of the other effects in here.

Do you have any insights on the Twin match-up? Revoker seems fine, but I imagine they have plenty of ways to get rid of it.

arcboundravager2
02-04-2013, 04:15 PM
Thanks for the heads up! It seems like it would fit here since it's pretty much the definition of "taxing", but I thought that it might be too much given how much we want to use Vial and all of the other effects in here.

Do you have any insights on the Twin match-up? Revoker seems fine, but I imagine they have plenty of ways to get rid of it.
if necessary you can play ghostly prison of dampening matrix or silent arbiter

arcboundravager2
02-04-2013, 04:40 PM
if necessary you can play ghostly prison of dampening matrix or silent arbiter

*damping matrix. also i thought or torpor orb. thats a good option as well

CaptainTwiddle
02-06-2013, 07:26 PM
Do you have any insights on the Twin match-up? Revoker seems fine, but I imagine they have plenty of ways to get rid of it.

Blind Obedience shuts down Kiki/Twin combo. Against Birthing Pod decks, they may have a bullet to remove an enchantment, but if you're limiting their search with Mindcensor and Arbiter, you might be buying enough time.

r3dd09
02-06-2013, 08:05 PM
Tested against smallpox; pretty rough matchup for us.

Davran
02-06-2013, 08:07 PM
Blind Obedience shuts down Kiki/Twin combo. Against Birthing Pod decks, they may have a bullet to remove an enchantment, but if you're limiting their search with Mindcensor and Arbiter, you might be buying enough time.

All Blind Obedience does is force them to go off on your end step. Given all the countermagic they play, their combo should be pretty safe while they wait. We'd have to have something like Abolisher + Obedience to truly shut them out, and that's a little too high variance for my tastes. Sticking to Torpor Orb or Damping Matrix is probably a safer bet.

arcboundravager2
02-09-2013, 09:30 PM
All Blind Obedience does is force them to go off on your end step. Given all the countermagic they play, their combo should be pretty safe while they wait. We'd have to have something like Abolisher + Obedience to truly shut them out, and that's a little too high variance for my tastes. Sticking to Torpor Orb or Damping Matrix is probably a safer bet.

i agree. having made my list and tested/ played it with a lot of success, i can say that obedience does virtually nothing. (though it would be fun to cast that and put on a set of goggles mid match)

nedleeds
02-10-2013, 01:38 PM
Blind Obedience is pretty sweet in R/w burn. It taps their blockers for your landfall monsters to swing in and gives the deck a little reach to squeeze the last few life out of your opponents. DNT doesn't need either of those things.

CaptainTwiddle
02-12-2013, 07:08 PM
I wonder if perhaps just a single copy of Whitemane Lion (deckbox.org/mtg/whitemane lion) would be worthwhile in this type of deck. Granted, the card is fairly weak in that it's essentially just a white Ashcoat Bear (deckbox.org/mtg/ashcoat bear), but it provides Kor Skyfisher (deckbox.org/mtg/kor skyfisher)'s bounce effect at instant speed without the use of an Æther Vial (deckbox.org/mtg/aether vial). This in turn gives you another way to abuse Mangara of Corondor (deckbox.org/mtg/mangara of corondor). At the very least, Whitemane Lion can get in to save one of your creatures and then chump block or trade with something in combat.

arcboundravager2
02-16-2013, 06:09 AM
I wonder if perhaps just a single copy of Whitemane Lion (deckbox.org/mtg/whitemane lion) would be worthwhile in this type of deck. Granted, the card is fairly weak in that it's essentially just a white Ashcoat Bear (deckbox.org/mtg/ashcoat bear), but it provides Kor Skyfisher (deckbox.org/mtg/kor skyfisher)'s bounce effect at instant speed without the use of an Æther Vial (deckbox.org/mtg/aether vial). This in turn gives you another way to abuse Mangara of Corondor (deckbox.org/mtg/mangara of corondor). At the very least, Whitemane Lion can get in to save one of your creatures and then chump block or trade with something in combat.

mangara is triible and shouldnt see play. its a trick that only works when you have access to karakas and stuff like that. its dependant on you having a blink effect in hand, otherwise it just sits there. also, stonecloaker is the same thing, but better

Fry
02-16-2013, 01:54 PM
I disagree arcboundravager2, Mangara is very good, having 4 flickerwisp, 2 stonecloaker, 3 kor skyfisher creates plenty of tricks with the Mangara. I do agree that without Karakas it's not as crazy good since you do need other cards to make it great. With that being said however, Legacy has Wasteland all over the place, no sure thing with the Karakas, same in Modern really with Vials.

r3dd09
02-16-2013, 04:31 PM
I disagree arcboundravager2, Mangara is very good, having 4 flickerwisp, 2 stonecloaker, 3 kor skyfisher creates plenty of tricks with the Mangara. I do agree that without Karakas it's not as crazy good since you do need other cards to make it great. With that being said however, Legacy has Wasteland all over the place, no sure thing with the Karakas, same in Modern really with Vials.

It's good in theory, but think about it, you're going to dedicate 9 creatures for a combo? What if you never draw Mangara?

Fry
02-17-2013, 06:05 PM
r3dd09:
The "combo pieces" as you put them are also rather good on their own.
-Flickerwisp is able to remove a blocker from the game for a turn, reset one of your lands to be used on your opponents next turn and it just gets even better with a vial on 3.
-Kor Skyfisher, along with Flickerwisp, is able to reset lands or bounce a Phyrexian Revoker to name a new card, again much better with an active vial, but still decent without one, 2/3 flyer for two is no slouch.
-The Stonecloaker is able to respond to Melira Pod by removing Redcap or Finks with Persist on the stack, or the targeted card from Deathrite. It's also able to bounce a chump blocker back to your hand or reset a Phyrexian Revoker.
In short, the cards that enable to more extra shenanegains with Mangara are cards that do things pertinent to the board state on their own without Mangara.

arcboundravager2
02-18-2013, 05:53 AM
r3dd09:
The "combo pieces" as you put them are also rather good on their own.
-Flickerwisp is able to remove a blocker from the game for a turn, reset one of your lands to be used on your opponents next turn and it just gets even better with a vial on 3.
-Kor Skyfisher, along with Flickerwisp, is able to reset lands or bounce a Phyrexian Revoker to name a new card, again much better with an active vial, but still decent without one, 2/3 flyer for two is no slouch.
-The Stonecloaker is able to respond to Melira Pod by removing Redcap or Finks with Persist on the stack, or the targeted card from Deathrite. It's also able to bounce a chump blocker back to your hand or reset a Phyrexian Revoker.
In short, the cards that enable to more extra shenanegains with Mangara are cards that do things pertinent to the board state on their own without Mangara.

i feel like its a very "eggs in one basket" approach. they can respond to all the bounce triggers, and mangara doesn't have haste so he is vulnerable for a turn. path, bolt, doomblade, Go for the throat, burst lightning, lightning helix, and pithing needle are all played and if they know what theyre doing, mangara will probably only get to activate once if youre lucky.

nedleeds
02-18-2013, 12:47 PM
Vial on 3 and Mangara is a combo. It's called Vindicate. All it takes is them tapping out (which happens quite a bit modern) for you vial him in EoT and just use him as Vindicate.

arcboundravager2
02-19-2013, 01:42 AM
Vial on 3 and Mangara is a combo. It's called Vindicate. All it takes is them tapping out (which happens quite a bit modern) for you vial him in EoT and just use him as Vindicate.

so what youre telling me is you intend to use him as a 1 shot deal and just deal with drawing all the guys you put in your deck to synergize with him?

.dk
02-21-2013, 02:08 PM
So, I've been playing a D&T build in my local Modern events for a few weeks, and thought I'd post here to get some feedback. Here is the list, and then some comments/questions:


1 Eiganjo Castle
4 Ghost Quarter
13 Plains
4 Tectonic Edge
4 Aether Vial
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Serra Avenger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Flickerwisp
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Stonecloaker

Sideboard:

3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Jötun Grunt
3 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Rest in Peace
2 Tempest of Light
3 Hokori, Dust Drinker

Overall, it has been working quite well. I've tested against Tron, UWR tempo, some Winbrisk/Through the Breach Emrakul thing, Burn, and some Jund matchups where I didn't do great but felt that was likely due to play mistakes on my part. However, Splinter Twin seems to be a bit rough. I seem to be able to hold them off for a while, but can't apply pressure fast enough before they can land a Spellskite along with their combo. Was thinking about more Revoker's, but they can really only name Spellskite since you're not sure if they are going with Kiki-Jiki, Pestermite, or Exarch - so naming any of them is just a crapshoot.

I've been shying away from Damping Matrix since that turns off Vial, but maybe that's just a necessary evil in the matchup? Maybe they just replace the Grunt's and 1 Hokori in the sideboard? Just thought I'd post to get anyone else's thoughts.

/edit 1 caveat - I'm rather new to Modern, and haven't really played the format much. So it wouldn't surprise me if I have some sub-optimal card choices based on what the meta actually is. Was just taking a "port from Legacy" type approach and assuming some generic sideboard cards that seemed useful.

Davran
02-22-2013, 09:09 AM
So, I've been playing a D&T build in my local Modern events for a few weeks, and thought I'd post here to get some feedback. Here is the list, and then some comments/questions:


1 Eiganjo Castle
4 Ghost Quarter
13 Plains
4 Tectonic Edge
4 Aether Vial
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Serra Avenger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Flickerwisp
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Stonecloaker

Sideboard:

3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Jötun Grunt
3 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Rest in Peace
2 Tempest of Light
3 Hokori, Dust Drinker

Overall, it has been working quite well. I've tested against Tron, UWR tempo, some Winbrisk/Through the Breach Emrakul thing, Burn, and some Jund matchups where I didn't do great but felt that was likely due to play mistakes on my part. However, Splinter Twin seems to be a bit rough. I seem to be able to hold them off for a while, but can't apply pressure fast enough before they can land a Spellskite along with their combo. Was thinking about more Revoker's, but they can really only name Spellskite since you're not sure if they are going with Kiki-Jiki, Pestermite, or Exarch - so naming any of them is just a crapshoot.

I've been shying away from Damping Matrix since that turns off Vial, but maybe that's just a necessary evil in the matchup? Maybe they just replace the Grunt's and 1 Hokori in the sideboard? Just thought I'd post to get anyone else's thoughts.

/edit 1 caveat - I'm rather new to Modern, and haven't really played the format much. So it wouldn't surprise me if I have some sub-optimal card choices based on what the meta actually is. Was just taking a "port from Legacy" type approach and assuming some generic sideboard cards that seemed useful.

Have you found Judge's Familiar to be useful? I currently have Dryad Militant in that slot and I'm not exactly in love with it, but it's been fine. I'll ask the same question about Oblivion Ring - the interaction with Flickerwisp is nice.

As for Twin, you could try Torpor Orb and/or Ghostly Prison out of your board. They generally play some amount of sideboard hate for the Orb, and Prison really just slows them down for a couple turns...but sometimes that's all you need. Another option is Suppression Field, but again...it really just slows them down.

.dk
02-22-2013, 02:39 PM
Have you found Judge's Familiar to be useful? I currently have Dryad Militant in that slot and I'm not exactly in love with it, but it's been fine. I'll ask the same question about Oblivion Ring - the interaction with Flickerwisp is nice.

As for Twin, you could try Torpor Orb and/or Ghostly Prison out of your board. They generally play some amount of sideboard hate for the Orb, and Prison really just slows them down for a couple turns...but sometimes that's all you need. Another option is Suppression Field, but again...it really just slows them down.

Thanks for the response. And yes, Judge's Familiar has been pretty good - I like the fact that it flies over Dryad Millitant, really. But in general, it has done some work alongside Thalia, as well as making my opponent choose between stifling their own development, and killing one of my creatures (via Path, as an example). It's been fine against things like Ancient Stirrings as well, to diminish ramp decks abilities to dig as well as cast ramp spells.

I think he would be better if there were a good way to run equipment in the deck, but the options in Modern just suck for that, unfortunately (i.e. no Stoneforge).

I've been liking O-ring as well, as it deals with various problem permanents. It's not fantastic against Liliana but it's certainly better than letting her live. This was the next best thing to Mangara for Modern, I felt, to be able to abuse with Flickerwisp. The format doesn't seem incredibly fast usually, so O-ring has been fine. It certainly gets boarded out in some matchups though.

Thanks for the suggestion against Twin - hadn't thought of Torpor Orb, and never really though of Ghostly Prison as a good fit - but maybe you're right and it is. Hadn't considered it in this matchup in particular. Will get to testing - thanks!

Davran
02-22-2013, 03:27 PM
Thanks for the response. And yes, Judge's Familiar has been pretty good - I like the fact that it flies over Dryad Millitant, really. But in general, it has done some work alongside Thalia, as well as making my opponent choose between stifling their own development, and killing one of my creatures (via Path, as an example). It's been fine against things like Ancient Stirrings as well, to diminish ramp decks abilities to dig as well as cast ramp spells.

I think he would be better if there were a good way to run equipment in the deck, but the options in Modern just suck for that, unfortunately (i.e. no Stoneforge).

I've been liking O-ring as well, as it deals with various problem permanents. It's not fantastic against Liliana but it's certainly better than letting her live. This was the next best thing to Mangara for Modern, I felt, to be able to abuse with Flickerwisp. The format doesn't seem incredibly fast usually, so O-ring has been fine. It certainly gets boarded out in some matchups though.

Thanks for the suggestion against Twin - hadn't thought of Torpor Orb, and never really though of Ghostly Prison as a good fit - but maybe you're right and it is. Hadn't considered it in this matchup in particular. Will get to testing - thanks!

I'll give the Familar a shot then. I've been looking for something other than Militant, maybe that's it.

Regarding equipment - I currently run 2 copies of Steelshaper's Gift and three swords (Feast and Famine, Fire and Ice, and Light and Shadow). It's been a bit of a mixed bag in terms of utility so far in testing. Sometimes I'm really looking for a sword, sometimes it's absolutely the last thing I want to draw. It's also worthwhile to note that Stony Silence is pretty good out of the board (it hits Tron, Pod, Eggs, Affinity, UWR using Scepter etc.), but it doesn't work at all with equipment. It's obviously also bad with Vial, but I think it would be worth it just to completely shut off our opponent.

I'm not 100% on Ghostly Prison, I haven't tested it at all. But, it is helpful to remember that it's out there. Also, some other potential options out of the board that fly a little under the radar are Celestial Purge and Mark of Asylum. It's too bad that Chalice of the Void hoses us so hard (and that Abrupt Decay is a card)...because there are so many relevant 1 drops in this format.

If you do end up going for Torpor Orb, their sideboard hate is usually Ancient Grudge...just as a heads up for land destruction purposes.

.dk
02-22-2013, 03:46 PM
It always felt to me like Steelshaper's Gift + equipment weren't doing enough to advance our gameplan. Equipment still gets countered when cast which seems like a problem to me, and as you said, sometimes you really don't want to draw it. But I could definitely see a SoFI as it is almost always card advantage with fliers.

I thought about Stony Silence - but is it worth boarding out Vial in those cases where it is good? Maybe it is - I've never tested it. Purge seems fine, but I'm not too sure what Mark of Asylum does in that matchup. Seems like with Flickerwisp and Stonecloaker that we should be able to protect our dudes ok. Unless maybe you were just mentioning it generically and I misinterpreted. :)

Thanks for the heads up on Grudge as well.

CaptainTwiddle
02-22-2013, 07:31 PM
It always felt to me like Steelshaper's Gift + equipment weren't doing enough to advance our gameplan.

As powerful as they are, I can't help but feel like the cost to cast and equip the Swords (of X and Y) is just too high for this format. When you're looking to contend with decks that goldfish turn 4, spending turn 3 casting a sword and half of turn 4 equipping it seems kind of slow. This seems like it would be mitigated in a Caw Blade-esque deck that plays more of a control roll, but in an aggro/midrange deck, I feel like it's just not a worthwhile investment.

Davran
02-25-2013, 08:55 AM
As powerful as they are, I can't help but feel like the cost to cast and equip the Swords (of X and Y) is just too high for this format. When you're looking to contend with decks that goldfish turn 4, spending turn 3 casting a sword and half of turn 4 equipping it seems kind of slow. This seems like it would be mitigated in a Caw Blade-esque deck that plays more of a control roll, but in an aggro/midrange deck, I feel like it's just not a worthwhile investment.

This is exactly the conclusion I've drawn from my testing. I find that when I do want a sword, I want to both play and equip it in the same turn. Trouble is, if the deck is working like it should I rarely have 5 mana (let alone 6 to cast Steelshaper's Gift first).

I'm also not all that enamored with Stonecloaker. It's been stuck in my hand far too many times due to my opponent's removal/combat...but at the same time its effect is so unique. I'm trying Restoration Angel in its place for now. I like that the Angel can survive Bolt, Electrolize, Abrupt Decay etc, and that it has a decent body on the attack.

.dk
02-25-2013, 06:34 PM
This is exactly the conclusion I've drawn from my testing. I find that when I do want a sword, I want to both play and equip it in the same turn. Trouble is, if the deck is working like it should I rarely have 5 mana (let alone 6 to cast Steelshaper's Gift first).

I'm also not all that enamored with Stonecloaker. It's been stuck in my hand far too many times due to my opponent's removal/combat...but at the same time its effect is so unique. I'm trying Restoration Angel in its place for now. I like that the Angel can survive Bolt, Electrolize, Abrupt Decay etc, and that it has a decent body on the attack.

Resto seems pretty good. I would think about running them in place of Stonecloakers if I had any... The one issue I see is that you're rarely going to want to move your vial to 4 since it is useless at that point after you've vialed in Angel. But overall, she seems fine, but her blink ability doesn't really shine in this deck though. Could be a thing with Mangara, I suppose, but that might be getting too greedy as it is a little slow. I feel like the taxing effects of Familiar, Arbiter, Mindcensor, and Thalia are generally enough to slow our opponents down so that we can start swinging for the win, rather than trying to do cute things with multiple Vindicates.

Davran
02-26-2013, 08:39 AM
Resto seems pretty good. I would think about running them in place of Stonecloakers if I had any... The one issue I see is that you're rarely going to want to move your vial to 4 since it is useless at that point after you've vialed in Angel. But overall, she seems fine, but her blink ability doesn't really shine in this deck though. Could be a thing with Mangara, I suppose, but that might be getting too greedy as it is a little slow. I feel like the taxing effects of Familiar, Arbiter, Mindcensor, and Thalia are generally enough to slow our opponents down so that we can start swinging for the win, rather than trying to do cute things with multiple Vindicates.

Yeah, the blink on the angel doesn't really do anything except in corner cases where you can save one of your bears from removal. I'm running it mostly for the 4 toughness. I have yet to want to tick my vial up to 4 - I'm only running 2 angels at the moment. By the time I draw one I usually have 4 lands in play anyway, so flashing it in is rarely a problem.

I agree about Mangara. It's simply too slow and clunky for this format.

nedleeds
02-26-2013, 01:33 PM
so what youre telling me is you intend to use him as a 1 shot deal and just deal with drawing all the guys you put in your deck to synergize with him?

I'm saying if I use him as a one shot super Vindicate then he's fucking done his job. It's modern. The removal is shit. Mangara with Vial on 3 is fine, Flickering him or Kor Skyfishering him is just gravy. He's nearly unconditional removal. Any deck that supports WW in it's mana base and plays 4 vials should be playing him. Flickerwisp doesn't exist just to hump Mangara's leg, when you say things like the above it's pretty clear you've never played with any of these cards for any period of time.

kombatkiwi
03-17-2013, 06:28 AM
Blue and Taxes AKA UW Hatebirds

4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Icatian Javelineers
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Aven Mindcensor
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Aven Mimeomancer

4 AEther Vial
1 Saving Grasp
4 Path to Exile

4 Ghost Quarter
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Moorland Haunt
4 Plains
4 Tectonic Edge
1 Island
3 Hallowed Fountain

I have taken some suggestions from previous posts along with an old post from the UW tempo thread in the legacy section of the forum and come up with the above deck. How I arrived at this is explained below.

The following I would consider the core of this sort of deck in modern and shouldn't really need any explanation

4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 AEther Vial
4 Path to Exile

You could possibly trim a Path or a Mindcensor IMO but the rest of the cards are too important.

As the most recent post states, the ability to have vindicate be a creature that can interact with Flickerwisp and be Vialed in is excellent. I do not believe that a Mangara on its own (i.e. drawn without Flickerwisp tricks) is too slow for the format.

So with what we have so far, all of your creatures are quite small but have a powerful ability to disrupt the opponent. You need a way to protect them from removal spells. Unfortunately, some instant like Rebuff the Wicked isn't the greatest because it nonboes with Thalia. Judge's Familiar seems like the perfect solution.

As suggested earlier in the thread, Icatian Javelineers is quite a good card, killing
Bob
Snap
Clique
Birds/Hierarch
Pestermite
Nearly every robot out of Affinity
Unflipped Delvers
Creeping Tar Pit
Steppe Lynx
Mindcensor
The untapping Weird
Inkmoth Nexus / Glistener Elf (Not the most reliable plan but you can at least force them to waste a pump spell on elf by trying to ping it in your own turn)

You can also use Flickerwisp to reload Javelins.

Unfortunately, some decks are largely unaffected by Javelins (Tron, Scapeshift, Eggs, etc). Also, even if he is good in a particular matchup you still want to find something relevant to be doing with the Javelineer after he has thrown his Javelin, such as carry an equipment, otherwise you might as well be using more reliable removal like Sunlance. A vanilla 1/1 isn't a clock and is chumped by everything.

This illustrates another important issue with this deck which is that nearly (Flickerwisp) all your guys have 2 or less power. All your Hatebears messing up their plan isn't good for anything if you give them time to draw lands for playing around Arbiter, Thalia, and Mindcensor.

So for the final 4 slots (assuming 22 lands is correct) I think that Aven Mimeomancer is the perfect solution. Firstly, putting a feather counter on any of the following of your own creatures is strictly a boon (unless your opponent is on some sort of Silklash Spider plan), helping to speed up your clock and make better trades in combat (Javelineers just pinged their Snapcaster and can now even block Geist to kill it etc):

Judge's Familiar
Thalia
Javelineers
Mindcensor
Mangara
Moorland haunt token

1 power to 3-with-flying is a big deal. Mimeomancer is either handing out free Magefire Wings every turn or uncovering the hidden Insectile potential of all your creatures, however you want to look at it. Putting a counter on Arbiter will usually be good too (2/2 Vanilla to 3/1 Flier) unless having the extra toughness is relevant (more on this later).

Putting feather counters on opponent's creatures is usually a good plan too. Many decks play creatures simply for being efficiently sized (cough Goyf cough). Having Mimeomancer in play can reduce the power of opposing creatures to slow their clock. (Other examples: Ghor Clan Rampager, Wurmcoil Engine, Primeval Titan. Admittedly, this is not a very good reason to be endorsing the card. More importantly, however, is the fact that feather counters reduce the toughness to 1, allowing any of your opponent's creatures to be killed by a Javelin or Moorland Haunt token (Or a Judge's Familiar or a Mindcensor or anything you have with a Feather Counter on it). If you have a Feathered Thalia and your Mimeomancer sticks around to Feather your opponent's creatures too it becomes impossible for him to profitably attack or block because of Thalia's First Strike and all your opponent's creatures having 1 toughness.

Unfortunately, by playing a 3 mana 3/1 (Essentially in the Serra Avenger slot) you open yourself up to blowouts by Forked Bolt, Electrolyze, Zealous Persecution etc. However, you have many ways to mess with your opponent's plan of playing a 3 mana instant when he chooses to, Forked Bolt is not commonly played, and both these cards were already good against previous versions of this deck anyway. The other thing is that it this reliance on 1-toughness attackers makes Lingering Souls much more annoying. I haven't really thought of a way to deal with this but Thalia does help a lot.

So yeah, I think that this combination of Mimeomancer + Javelineer gives this deck a powerful angle that it didn't have previously and allows you to get the most value out of playing a bunch of highly disruptive creatures with small bodies. Playing blue also could make additional sideboard options available in addition to possibly some other creatures like Clique or Lyev Skyknight

Unfortunately it's all theory at this stage but let me know what you think of it. I wanted to port the Weathered Wayfarer version of the UW deck in legacy but decided that it wouldn't work - with no wastelands the closest thing you have is Ghost Quarter (tec edge too slow) and with a Leonin Arbiter out to facilitiate the Quarter you can't even search for the Ghost Quarter from your deck anyway.

Fry
03-17-2013, 04:25 PM
If the only tricks you're trying to do with Mangara is that with AEther Vial and Flickerwisp, then you aren't trying hard enough to abuse it. There are several cards out there that you can use to abuse Mangara and that can also work on flickering your opponents creatures until end of turn to clear the way for an alpha strike win (or just as likely, use them your EOT so they won't come back until their end of their turn).

Here's my list and it's done rather well.

Main Board:
3x Aven Mindcensor
4x Flickerwisp
1x Kor Skyfisher
4x Leonin Arbiter
4x Mangara of Corondor
2x Otherworldly Journey
4x Path to Exile
4x Serra Avenger
2x Stonecloaker
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Turn to Mist
4x AEther Vial
3x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Eiganjo Castle
4x Ghost Quarter
3x Tectonic Edge
13x Plains

Side Board:
2x Burrenton Forge-Tender
3x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Honor of the Pure
3x Leonin Relic-Warder
4x Mana Tithe

Mirrislegend
03-20-2013, 06:25 PM
I started playing mono white, Aether Vial version of Death and Taxes at the beginning of Modern season. I learned some hard lessons right away.

First, we have an insufficient board presence. In Modern (as opposed to Standard or Legacy), you need to have relevant boots on the ground asap. None of the hatebears qualify. Neither do all the dudes that die to Lightning Bolt. Second, counterspells are largely irrelevant in this format and mana birds are way faster than Vial.

Using these lessons, I came up with Beats and Taxes:

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Dryad Militant
4 Leonine Arbiter
4 Thalia
3 Serra Avenger
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Wilt-Leaf Liege

4 Path to Exile
2 Honor of the Pure

4 Ghost Quarter
3 Gavony Township
4 Temple Garden
11 (plains, sunpetal, horizon canopy)
1 Forest

This retains the original D&T land attacks. It trades flicker and vial tricks for bigger, better creatures. This list retains all of D&T good matchups (Pod, Tron, Scapeshift, Eggs, and any non-creature combo is effectively an auto-win) while improving others due to board presence.

Despite all these improvements, I've found the deck to be insufficient in the most important MUs: Jund and UWR.

How does anyone beat UWR (especially the versions with Electrolyze)?

Mr. Safety
04-07-2013, 09:47 PM
How does anyone beat UWR (especially the versions with Electrolyze)?

Brave the Elements

Unblockable attacks or just a cheap protection, especially against wipers like Pyroclasm or 2-for-1 tricks like Electrolye/Forked Bolt.

DragoFireheart
04-07-2013, 10:51 PM
Why no Mirran Crusader? Equipped with any of the swords and he will wreck house. He's also good at fighting most of Junds creatures and removal.

Davran
04-08-2013, 09:37 AM
Why no Mirran Crusader? Equipped with any of the swords and he will wreck house. He's also good at fighting most of Junds creatures and removal.

Having tried Sword of X and Y, they're a little too slow and unreliable for modern...at least in this deck. In my testing I found that it world take me 2 to 3 turns to get a sword online, and by that time I was either too far behind for it to matter or already winning anyway. I think it would be different if Stoneforge Mystic wasn't banned, but trying to use Steelshaper's Gift through Thalia and/or Leonin Arbiter is just bad.

As for Mirran Crusader, I think that's more of a meta call. The deck has a lot of quality choices for the 3-drop slot (Flickerwisp, Aven Mindcensor, Blade Splicer, Kitchen Finks etc.). Of those, I think Crusader is somewhere near the bottom of the pile because it doesn't do much against non-goyf decks.

LEH
04-08-2013, 11:39 AM
Mask of Memory is the best equipment to run in D&T. Swords of X+Y are too slow. Brave the Elements and Burrenton Forge-Tender are strong anti-UWR cards, from my experience.

Davran
04-09-2013, 09:02 AM
Mask of Memory is the best equipment to run in D&T. Swords of X+Y are too slow. Brave the Elements and Burrenton Forge-Tender are strong anti-UWR cards, from my experience.

I'll also plug Burrenton Forge-Tender. It's a solid sideboard choice that's also very helpful vs. burn.

Kpicco
06-23-2013, 03:04 AM
Current list I've been brewing. As a legacy death and taxes player, I took what I liked from legacy and shoved it into this list, and tweaked it to this.

Creatures:
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Student of Warfare
3 Blade Splicer
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Mangara of Corondor
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Fiend Hunter

Instants:
4 Path to Exile

Artifacts:
4 AEther Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Crucible of Worlds (my favorite tech)

Lands:
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains

Sideboard (probably needs the most work):

2 Kor Firewalker
2 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Torpor Orb
2 Spellskite
2 Wilt-leaf Liege
2 Sunlance
1 Relic of Progenitus

So far I've had an incredible unbeatable streak, which will now promptly end since I've talked about it. :)

Davran
06-24-2013, 09:28 AM
Current list I've been brewing. As a legacy death and taxes player, I took what I liked from legacy and shoved it into this list, and tweaked it to this.

Creatures:
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Student of Warfare
3 Blade Splicer
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Mangara of Corondor
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Fiend Hunter

Instants:
4 Path to Exile

Artifacts:
4 AEther Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Crucible of Worlds (my favorite tech)

Lands:
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains

Sideboard (probably needs the most work):

2 Kor Firewalker
2 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Torpor Orb
2 Spellskite
2 Wilt-leaf Liege
2 Sunlance
1 Relic of Progenitus

So far I've had an incredible unbeatable streak, which will now promptly end since I've talked about it. :)

I've never had much luck with Sword of X and Y in modern - I find they're just too slow. That might just be my meta talking, but the loss of Stoneforge Mystic really hurts the sword plan.

I'm also not a huge fan of the full boat of Phyrexian Revoker in the main deck. They're pretty fragile, and they're often pretty dead. Also, it's relevant to point out that they can't actually pin a Celestial Colonnade which tends to stop this deck in its tracks.

I've had some pretty good results with Aven Riftwatcher, particularly against decks like burn. It's pretty solid with Flickerwisp/Restoration Angel too.

For your sideboard - I prefer Burrenton Forge-tender over Firewalker. Stony Silence is pretty great, too. It lost a little utility with the killing of eggs.deck, but it still beats pretty hard on affinity and tron. It's also a little more permanent than Revoker when it comes to pinning something relevant like a Cranial Plating. You might also consider Kataki, War's Wage in this slot if you see a lot of affinity around. You shouldn't need Cannonist unless you see a lot of storm players in your meta...there isn't much by way of combo out there in the wild.

Kpicco
06-24-2013, 11:37 PM
Not sure how to use quotes effectively on here, so i'll just go point by point. :3

I completely agree with the swords, they usually feel like win-more when they do anything. What would you suggest replacing them with?

I disagree about revoker, but that may come from my experience playing the deck in legacy. A weak body, no doubt, but it just completely shuts off decks plans. (Deathrite/Liliana/Grim lavamancer (Game saver, everytime)/birthing pod/etc).

Seems interesting. Seems more like side-board tech, but I'm not playing resto either, so..

I'll check Burrenton Forge-tender out, seems good.

Yeah I didn't know if ethersworn was worth anything in modern, I just brought it over from legacy. Know little beyond the basics of moderns meta.

Davran
06-25-2013, 08:17 AM
Not sure how to use quotes effectively on here, so i'll just go point by point. :3

I completely agree with the swords, they usually feel like win-more when they do anything. What would you suggest replacing them with?

I disagree about revoker, but that may come from my experience playing the deck in legacy. A weak body, no doubt, but it just completely shuts off decks plans. (Deathrite/Liliana/Grim lavamancer (Game saver, everytime)/birthing pod/etc).

Seems interesting. Seems more like side-board tech, but I'm not playing resto either, so..

I'll check Burrenton Forge-tender out, seems good.

Yeah I didn't know if ethersworn was worth anything in modern, I just brought it over from legacy. Know little beyond the basics of moderns meta.

Honestly? I'd just replace the swords with more dudes. I actually quite like Restoration Angel as a 2-3 of in the deck. It survives Lightning Bolt, it's a pseudo-Flickerwisp, and 4 toughness is pretty huge vs. many modern decks. It's worth noting that I never actually tick Vial up to 4 to cast it, but that usually isn't a problem.

As for Riftwatcher, it could just as easily be Kitchen Finks. I went with the bird because I see a lot of burn/aggro decks in my meta, so the 3 toughness and flying is more relevant. Also, hitting a Riftwatcher with a Flickerwisp/Resto is a decent life swing when your opponent is slinging burn at you.

Ethersworn Cannonist used to be a sideboard staple in the format before WotC decided that storm was too good for modern. Sucks for the storm players...but it frees up some sideboard space for us.

trevaftw
06-26-2013, 09:19 PM
I don't know if this would be better as a new thread or here, but anyways:

I'm thinking of combining Wb Soul Sisters and D&T. The life gainers offset heavy life loss from Bob, Auriok Champion and Mirran Crusader seem to be good against a decent portion of the meta, and Thalia and Aven work to slow them down the rest of the field. Also, by heaving a heavy human subtheme it allows me to play a full playset of Cavern and ignore counters for the most part.

Creatures - 26
2 Soul's Attendant
2 Soul Warden
4 Auriok Champion
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Dark Confidant
4 Aven Mindcensor
3 Mirran Crusader
3 Hero of Bladehold

Spells - 8
4 Path to Exile
4 Thoughtseize

Ench - 4
Honor of the Pure

Lands - 22
4 Marsh Flats
4 Godless Shrine
2 Arid Mesa
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel

Sideboard - 15 (work in progress)
3 Disenchant
3 Stony Silence
3 Rest in Peace
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Orzhov Charm

trevaftw
06-29-2013, 10:14 PM
Played this list today:


Creatures - 26
2 Soul's Attendant
2 Soul Warden
4 Auriok Champion
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Dark Confidant
4 Aven Mindcensor
3 Mirran Crusader
3 Hero of Bladehold

Spells - 8
4 Path to Exile
4 Thoughtseize

Ench - 4
Honor of the Pure

Lands - 22
4 Marsh Flats
4 Godless Shrine
2 Arid Mesa
4 Isolated Chapel
3 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Fetid Heath
1 Vault of the Archangel

Sideboard - 15
3 Disenchant
2 Stony Silence
1 Suture Priest
3 Rest in Peace
3 Geth's Verdict
3 leyline of sanctity

Round 1 - RUG Scapeshift
Before today this always felt like a terrible match up to me. After going 4-0 at legacy this week I was able to pick up some odds and ends for a couple different decks. The main one worth noting is I finished my playset of Aven Mindcensor. This made me feel a lot more comfortable against this deck. Game 1 there really isn't much to speak of. He kept an opening hand he should've mulled because he had no green mana for his land searchers allwoing me to kill him before he could do anything effective. Game 2: IN - 3 Leyline of Sanctity. OUT - 3 Path to Exile. I had nothing turn 1 other than a Leyine of Sanctity. Seeing him slump was pretty nice for a change (considering that's generally my reaction to Scapeshift). Then on turn 2 I got out Thalia followed up by turn 3 Mirran crusader threatening six damage next turn. He then proceeded to pyroclasm on his next turn and suspend a Search for Tomorrow. The nice thing is I know he plays Pyroclasm so I purposefully played it to bait it out and Play Aven Mindcensor with nothing to fear. After this I was able win pretty easily.

Matches: 1-0, Games 2-0

Round 2 - Lingering Jund
This was an interesting match. Auriok Champion blanking all of his removal is pretty nice. Game 1 I was on the play and had pretty good draws. Mirran Crusader the turn after he plays Goyf followed by Honor of the Pure and Path to Exile pretty much secured the game. Game 2: IN - 3 Leyline of Sanctity, 3 Rest In Peace OUT - 2 Duress, 1 Thalia, 1 Aven Mindcensor 1 Hero Of Bladehold. Game 2 was terrible. I had an okay opening grip but his was much better. He was able to land a turn 2 Liliana and rip my hand apart and I could stick a creature to do anything. After this game I thought aside from his fetchlands that he didn't have muych search so I took out the remaining 3 Aven Mindcensor's and brought back in 2 Duress and 1 Thalia. Game 3 was a struggle. I was on the play and had another average hand and so did he. We want back and forth for awhile trading control/advantage of the game. In the end, though, he was able to play and flashback two Lingering Souls that I couldn't just fight past. After the match we talked about it a little bit and I never should have brought in the Leyline and sided out Aven Mindcensor. Lingering Jund's manabase is very susceptible to being mana screwed so Aven mindcensor should've been kept in and Leyline just watered down my game plan so I shot myself in the foot.

Matches: 1-1, Games: 3-3

Round 3 - UR Storm
There isn't too much to say about this. He had pretty much bought this deck this week so he didn't have fully understood and it was also fairly budget build. He started off game 1 with a Gitaxian Probe and I had a Soul Warden. He then played a Goblin Electromancer and I followed up with a Thalia negating it. I was able to outrace him because of this and took game 1. Game 2: IN - 3 Leyline of Sanctity OUT - 3 Path To Exile. Game 2 was no contest. Opening Grip had Thalia, Leyline, Rest in Peace, 2 Lands, and a Auriok Champion.

Matches: 2-1, Games: 5-3

Round 4 - RG Aggro/Blitz
Similar story to above. A standard player looking to play modern. Added some bolts, picked up Kird Ape, Goblin guide, and a few other things. Game 1 I won through Auriok Champion allowing me to chump block endlessly until I could draw into some Honor of the Pure and Mirran Crusader. Game 2: IN - 3 Geth's Verdict, 1 Suture Priest OUT - 4 Duress. Game 2 he curved out perfectly from Experiment Ooze into Burning Tree into Flinthoof Boar and I was unable to draw into anything but lands. Game 3 went back and forth in the beginning because I was able to chump his guys endlessly with an Auriok champion but I was still losing life because of my Dark Confidant. Unfortunately he really didn't do much for draws until I was able to rip 2x Auriok Champions followed by a Path to Exile and Geth's Verdict allowing me to swing for the win.

Matches: 3-1, Games: 7-4


Open to any and all input :)

Ish
07-16-2013, 12:25 PM
Played this deck for the first time last night.

I played the basic mono white D&T core with a swords and steelshapers gift package.

Not going to post any decklist until I refine it some. My initial thoughts.

I love the deck, it is a blast to play. Craps all over alot of decks, especially tron. But I struggled against aggro and specifically affinity.

Really did not like the sword package, going to remove them completely.

I saw someone here running blade splicer... any thoughts on that. Never considered that card.

I do want to test Eight-and-a-Half-Tails (it's no Mom but worth a try). Other cards that interest me (but could be aweful) are ghost prison and Magus of the Tabernacle.

Davran
07-16-2013, 02:29 PM
I love the deck, it is a blast to play. Craps all over alot of decks, especially tron. But I struggled against aggro and specifically affinity.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that you look to your sideboard for dealing with affinity. A few potential options:

Stony Silence
Kataki, War's Wage
Pithing Needle

Dropping a Kataki after they've dropped their hand is particularly devastating, especially if they've played Darksteel Citadel as one of their lands. It's even more devastating when on the play game 2. Pithing Needle is also pretty decent because it's not dead in other match-ups. Relevant targets include Cranial Plating, Blinkmoth/Inkmoth Nexus, and Arcbound Ravager.

For other aggro, Burrenton Forge-tender is a pretty solid beating. I've also tried out Aven Riftwatcher in the main with some pretty decent success. I chose it over Kitchen Finks because the extra toughness is relevant vs. all of the X/2 creatures running around, and you can gain more life than you can with a finks through Flickerwisp/Restoration Angel tricks. Also, it flies.

There's also the brand new Imposing Sovereign out of M14 that may have some implications for us. It pretty handily shuts down cards like Hellspark Elemental, but I'm not sure if that's enough.


Really did not like the sword package, going to remove them completely.

Definitely agree here. I tried the swords for a while and it simply wasn't worth it.


I saw someone here running blade splicer... any thoughts on that. Never considered that card.

I've never tried it myself, but it seems like it has potential. The 3/3 is a pretty solid wall for the aggro decks running around, and if you can keep the splicer around long enough to Flick and/or give your 3/3 first strike you should be golden.

Ish
07-16-2013, 07:38 PM
Yeah in boarded kataki and ghostly prisons and just never saw them against the affinity deck.

Gonna have to check out the other suggestions too thanks! Feels this deck could really be refined into something pretty powerful. It'll be fun developing it on the source with everyone!

Fry
08-18-2013, 01:48 AM
I did a GPT for Detroit Saturday and here's the list I used:

Main
3x Aven Mindcensor
4x Flickerwisp
4x Leonin Arbiter
3x Mana Tithe
4x Mangara of Corondor
4x Path to Exile
4x Serra Avenger
2x Stonecloaker
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x ÆthervVial
3x Phyrexian Revoker

1x Eiganjo Castle
4x Ghost Quarter
3x Tectonic Edge
13x Plains

Side:
2x Burrenton Forge-Tender
3x Celestial Purge
2x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Imposing Sovereign
3x Leonin Relic-Warder
1x Mana Tithe
1x Phyrexian Revoker

All of 11 people, but with it being a GPT it's still 5 rounds of swiss...

Round 1: vs. Bryce playing Boros
Game 1:
I end up winning game one I tec edge a sacred foundry and quarter his only other red source, the basic mountain and he doesn't search for his basic even though I didn't have an arbiter or mindcensor out. double tithe to keep him from burning out thalia and I mangara two more land, his spark trooper only saved him one turn.

Game 2: Out: 2 mangara, 1 tithe, 2 mindcensor, 1 revoker, 1 stonecloaker. In: 3 purge, 2 sovereign, 2 forge-tender
This game is very similar to the first in that I quarter a mountain (no search due to arbiter this time), I end up tec edging a foundry and mangara on the other foundry to lock him out of red. Early in the game Bryce had the option to lavamancer my thalia, but chose to hit me instead... I asked him why after the match and he said it didn't matter much because he has them in his side... That didn't make sense to me, I'd think killing her off would have been a much better play, it taxes resources and first strike to boot.
1-0


Round 2: vs Scott playing Red-Green Tron
Game 1:
Scott plays first and doesn't play anything until turn three, when he naturally has the tron and karns me... That sucked a lot, but I still put up quite a fight, then double wurmcoil just kills me since I could only answer one of them...

Game 2: Out: 4 mangara, 2 stonecloaker, 1 mindcensor In: 2 forge-tender, 3 relic-warder, 1 tithe, 1 revoker
I play first and pass with a plains. He plays map, I tithe it, too powerful by searching up any land he needs to finish tron... turn two is a thalia. a few turns and beats later he has an o-stone that he ends up blowing only the thalia sky high. My next turn I play Avenger I drew the turn before, and the one I drew that turn. I path his wurmcoil and swing for the win (I had done some tricksy things with flickerwisp in that game, beat with wisp, main two play wisp on other wisp, eot get his karn with my newly entered wisp... That's always great fun.

Game 3: No side change
It starts off going fairly well, and Scott gets his tron up and running with a karn and I end up having to double tithe a pyroclasm (Figured I may as well since the second one countered it and he had a metric ton of mana available at other times...) It saves the thalia and some other bear, I think arbiter. I get trampled down by more wurmcoil.
1-1

Round 3: vs Michael playing mono black tron
Game 1:
He's on the play and mulls while I keep my almost iffy hand, with any land I'm golden with my T1 Vial. He mulls a second time. We begin... Short and boring story later... I mangara 3 swamps and tec edged an urza's mine, and when I qhost quartered his last swamp (only other land was a phyrexia's core) I have arbiter in play, so it's a strip mine.

Game 2: Out: 1 mindcensor, 2 mangara, 2 stonecloaker In: 1 tithe, 1 revoker, 3 relic-warder
He mulls once this game and we're off to the races. I end up playing a revoker of expedition map, and get a second one for his spellskite. I mangara /wisp from vial a swamp, and get a second swamp next turn, tec edged a tower and a couple turns later a plant. I mangara away a solemn simulacrum and my mindcensor make two solemns wiff... I mana tithe a pristine talisman to keep him off mana and a life a turn can be frustrating... My thalia is doing her job well by allowing me to play dudes and have tithe mana open... I never let him get enough mana to cast his damnation through thalia, let alone the tithe in my hand.
2-1

Round 3: vs Zac playing Affinity
Game 1: My friend gets the play and a vault skirge turn one, and gets another one turn 2 with a pest. Long story shorter, he has 2 skirge, 2 pest a cranial in play and I think I've lost this game... Almost (I love this deck because it's resilient and I'm a very capable pilot... ported the deck over from Legacy and I've played it for several years there.) because I'm really low on life. I end up being at 3 life when I finally defeat him after Zac's highest life total was 26... He gained nearly 15 life that first game. I tithed a ravager which kept me from losing the game! Love me some good ol' resource taxation!

Game 2: Out:1 arbiter 1 cloaker 1 mindcensor, 4 mangara In: 2 forge-tender, 3 relic-warder, 1 revoker, 1 tithe
I tithe an overseer, Zac gets another one that I can't answer, he gets a ravager and modulates onto an activated blinkmoth and I never get the answers I need in time to staunch the flow of from my wounds and I lose the game

Game 3: No side change
We get a massive board going on here... Kind of flashed me back to when I was little and thought the more creatures you had the better you were doing and you were going to win because you had so much stuff!!... end of flashback that happens because at one point my board looks something along the lines of: relic-warder on springleaf (turn two I got that one), relic-warder of overseer, revoker on ravager, tithed a ravager already, wisp craziness mangara something gone, thalia slows him like a mad woman... Zac has double vault skirge, double thopter, the master is gone the turn he plays it from my path, and inkmoth and a blinkmoth... I end up attacking him slowly with the relic-warder that has the drum since it doesn't much matter if he gets that back now. and he just eats it a couple times instead of a two-for-one my favor trade. he attacks with vault skirge with a plating on it, block with a wisp, trade, repeat next turn. The last few turns end up being something like this... He has an inkmoth, blinkmoth, darksteel citadel, plating, and an opal in play... I have a thalia and the relic-warder that swiped the overseer in play with a vial on 3. He equips the plating to the inkmoth, I'm at 6 poison and 17 life... I have several outs left in my deck, 2x wisp, 2 path, 3 quarter, 2 avenger, and a mindcensor as ways to deal with it and return swing for the win... I attack him with the thalia and the relic-warder down to 2 life. He draws, activates, nexus, equips it with the plating, goes to beat me in the face, then I am evil and vial in the only card in my hand, the one I just drew... FLICKERWISP on the inkmoth for the win.
3-1

Round 5: ID one undefeated (Scott, my only loss) and two others with 9 points, we all ID and get the cut to the top 4... I teach a guy how to play Ascension while we wait for the swiss round to finish up so we could get on with our top 4 cut.

I play against Matt in the first round of the cut who is playing The Rock
It's a seeded cut so I get to go first... I start off with one of my favorite play of all time... Land. Vial. Go. He plays a basic swamp and seizes my thoughts of thalia on turn two away... I have a decent hand, but he has answers to everything I'm doing to answer his troublesome things... No paths to deal with a 5/6 goyf is a bit of a problem when he blows up your dude that can do something about it (Mangara, you've failed me!). I elect to go first for game 2 as well... hand of 7 has one land and it's a tec edge, no vial... Try a had of 6, same dratted story. Hand of 5 has 2 plains, thalia, mangara, and a tec edge. Seems like an excellent hand for being on a mul to 5! I lose in what neither Matt or I called anything close to a game.

I end up in 3rd place with breakers of Scott getting to the finals and he was my only loss in the swiss, and my only other loss was Matt. Got 6 packs, went and got Chinese food from my favorite Chinese restaurant and went my merry way home. My friend Shawn who went with me unfortunately did not do very well, but we're supportive of each other and the others in our band of nerds even if we ourselves do poorly.

I decided that I love, absolutely and completely, Mana Tithe being in the main board, to the point where I'm going to put all four main. Sovereigns never needed used, no twin such nonsense at the tourney (there were several tron decks however) I still need to do some testing and fiddling with numbers/other potential cards and so on and so forth, but I'm quite pleased with how the deck performed.

P.S.... For one who despises writing, I wrote a lot there...

Davran
08-26-2013, 03:15 PM
I've been brewing up the following list for this week's FNM:

3x Grand Abolisher
4x Leonin Arbiter
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Aven Mindcensor
3x Aven Riftwatcher
4x Blade Splicer
4x Flickerwisp
2x Stonecloaker
2x Restoration Angel

4x Path to Exile
4x Aether Vial
2x Mask of Memory

1x Eiganjo Castle
4x Ghost Quarter
4x Tectonic Edge
14x Plains

Sideboard:

3x Chalice of the Void
2x Burrenton Forge-tender
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Pithing Needle
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
1x Aven Mindcensor

The Mask of Memory seem a little jank, but there aren't very many fliers in my meta so I'm hoping that they'll provide some decent dig for Path and the like. I'm also not 100% sold on Grand Abolisher. I know that there is at least one UWR player, and another guy who plays the UR Delver deck that's been popping up recently.

I'm interested in exploring Chalice of the Void out of the board in the format. Most of the decks we have trouble with rely pretty heavily on one drops (infect, boggles, UWR) and there's just something about shutting off 50% of their deck that I like. Also, I don't think that anyone is bringing artifact hate in vs. the deck, so once we resolve one it should stick around. The only trouble with this is that it shuts off our own Path to Exile, so if Infect lands a 2 drop dork we might be in trouble if we can't trade for it in combat. That's where the Ratchet Bombs come in.

Davran
09-04-2013, 01:16 PM
Finally have some time to write a quick report from last FNM:

The list:

4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Leonin Relic-Warder
4 Serra Avenger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Blade Splicer
4 Flickerwisp
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Restoration Angel

4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial

1 Eiganjo Castle
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Tectonic Edge
14 Plains

Sideboard:

3 Chalice of the Void
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Disenchant
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Rest in Peace
1 Aven Mindcensor

Round 1 vs. Melira Pod

My opponent stumbles on black mana game 1 (I didn't see any), which is exactly what this deck preys on. He plays out a few beaters, but he can't keep up with the airborne assault and a pair of well timed Flickerwisps. Nothing my opponent played game one indicated melira pod, so I sideboarded incorrectly here. Out: 2x Relic-Warder, 1x Serra Avenger In: 2x Ratchet Bomb, 1x Pithing Needle. I had a strong feeling that he was on pod, so the needle came in as a hedge. Had I gone with my gut, I would have brought in the Cage, the second Needle and possibly the Mindcensor. My opponent starts strong game two with Birds into Melira and Viscera Seer. I have the Path for the Melira with a Finks on the stack and it turns out to be enough.

1-0, 2-0 in games.

Round 2 vs. Infect

Game 1 is a little strange. I win the die roll and we're off to the races. My opponent leads with a Noble Hierarch, and I answer with Thalia. On his next turn, he casts a Glistener Elf with his only land and attacks with the Hierarch. I of course snap block, and he tries to Mutagenic Growth. I inform him that his spell costs an extra :1:, he shrugs and says "I guess we'll trade then". Unfortunately for him, Thalia also has first strike. He asks for a do over (seriously), and gets salty when I don't allow it (go figure). I cast a Blade Splicer on my turn and he scoops. Out: 2x Relic-Warder, 2x Mindcensor In: 3x Chalice of the Void, 1x Pithing Needle. I keep a reasonable 7 and we're off. My opponent leads with an Elf. I draw a Chalice of the Void and am feeling pretty good about my chances. He drops an Inkmoth Nexus and hits me up to 6 poison, and I lose to the Nexus a couple turns later. No sideboard changes for game 3. I land a turn 1 Pithing Needle on Inkmoth Nexus, but my opponent has a pair of Blighted Agents I can't find removal for.

1-1, 3-2 in games.

Round 3 vs. UWR "tempo"

My opponent keeps what I can only assume was a greedy hand, and never gets beyond his second land. A vialed in Thalia allows me to Path his turn 1 Delver of Secrets through countermagic after it flips several turns later, and a Finks/Golem attack squad gets the job done relatively quickly. Out: 2x Relic-Warder, 2x Serra Avenger In: 3x Burrenton Forge-Tender, 1x Ratchet Bomb. Game 2 is better for my opponent in terms of lands, but that's about all. A turn 1 Vial shuts off his countermagic, and Thalia does her thing for a while. I'm able to stick an Arbiter thanks to the Vial, which allows me to Strip Mine him off of Cryptic Command. He eventually has a Lightning Helix for the Thalia, and 2 more later on for some other dorks, but I draw more creatures than he has removal and eventually get there. A couple of key plays in this game were Vialing in a Finks to block his Geist of St. Traft and using Flickerwisp to reset a flipped delver that he was never able to re-flip.

2-1, 5-2 in games.

I ended the night in third for a couple of packs and a promo Dimir Charm.

Leonin Relic-Warder was actually terrible all night, and is definitely something that I'm looking to replace in the main deck. I'm thinking of going for something like Icatian Javelineers in an effort to shore up the infect match-up, which is pretty terrible. Other options include Sunlance and Oust, but sorcery speed and their poor interaction with Thalia make them seem worse.

In terms of the sideboard, the Chalice of the Void experiment seems questionable at best, but I think I'm going to keep them in for now. I feel like they're better on the play vs. some of our worst match-ups (Boggles, Infect)...but time will tell I guess. The biggest problem is that they do actual nothing vs. Blighted Agent while also turning off Path, which is the actual worst. Dismember may turn out to be a better solution in the long run.

mschu99
09-04-2013, 08:40 PM
Thanks for everyones posts. I've been trying to build this deck for the past couple of weeks and this is what I ended up with.

4x--Dryad Militants
4x--Leonin Arbiter
3x--Thalia
3x--Serra Avenger
3x--Aven Mindcensor
2x--Mirran Crusader
3x--Blade Splicer
4x--Flickerwisp
2x--Restoration Angel
2x--Hero of Bladehold

4x--Aether Vial
4x--Path to Exile

14x--Plains
1x--Eiganjo Castle
4x--Ghost Quarter
3x--Tetonic Edge

SIDEBOARD:
2x--Relic of Progenitus
2x--Dismember
2x--Stony Silence
2x--Oblivion Ring
2x--Rule of Law
1x--Disenchant
1x--Phyrexian Revoker
2x--Mask of Memory
1x--Day of Judgment

NOTES:
The biggest difference I think is my use of 4 drops. Although this does slow down the deck, it gives it push for the end game. Instead of relying on the swords package to end the game, I have something like Hero/Resto to vial in for the crack back to end games.
I chose not to include Phyrexian Revoker (except as a one of in the sideboard **aka pithing needle) because I felt like it's not as good in Modern as it is in Legacy. After reading how you can name Deathrite with it, it may be a good option, also the affinity matchup. It feels a little passive for me though and I feel like there might be a more proactive strategy.
The 3 drop spot I had some trouble with. 4 of Flickerwisp I felt was an auto include to help with combat tricks, save my dude from removal, and blink effects. I felt like the main 3 drops I wanted was Kitchen Finks, Blade Splicer, Mangara of Corondor, and Mirran Crusader. I like Blade Splicer because I like having two bodies and the possibility to blink it. I like Mirran Crusader because it helps fight Goyf/Jund (although it's weak to bolt). I like Kitchen Finks because of life gain and its resiliance. Mangara is great removal but more difficult to abuse in Modern then in Legacy. I ended up going with 3 Blade Splicers and 2 Mirran Crusaders just because I felt it was the more aggresive strategy.

SIDEBOARD:
Day of Judgment is good verse hyper aggressive decks (affinity, hexproof, etc). I like it as a one of and catch all. Plus, I feel the 4 drops give a new dimension for the long game, especially when you can wrath and vial in a hero. This deck already feels like a control deck so why not. I might want to use a Corosive Gale to deal with tokens strategies.
I am not sure about Mask of Memory, but it seems good in a grindfest where they have difficulty with fliers, and against control to help draw into more action.
O-Ring good catch all, slow removal for planeswalkers, troublesome enchantments, etc.
Rule of Law vs. Storm. Want Ethersworn Canonist because it can slide down the vial, and happens faster.
Relic of Progenistus for Snapcaster, Graveyard, Goyf/Deathrite Decks. I think it should probably be 1 Relic and 2 Rest in Peace (zero masks...but we'll see).

There is a lot of good tech in the thread I have yet aquire like Kataki, Burrenton Forge-Tendor, Mana Tithe, and this sideboard definitely needs work (plus I should probably play in some tournaments around town to see what other people are playing).

Let me know what your thoughts on the maindeck are.

Davran
09-05-2013, 08:21 AM
Thanks for everyones posts. I've been trying to build this deck for the past couple of weeks and this is what I ended up with.

4x--Dryad Militants
4x--Leonin Arbiter
3x--Thalia
3x--Serra Avenger
3x--Aven Mindcensor
2x--Mirran Crusader
3x--Blade Splicer
4x--Flickerwisp
2x--Restoration Angel
2x--Hero of Bladehold

4x--Aether Vial
4x--Path to Exile

14x--Plains
1x--Eiganjo Castle
4x--Ghost Quarter
3x--Tetonic Edge

SIDEBOARD:
2x--Relic of Progenitus
2x--Dismember
2x--Stony Silence
2x--Oblivion Ring
2x--Rule of Law
1x--Disenchant
1x--Phyrexian Revoker
2x--Mask of Memory
1x--Day of Judgment

NOTES:
The biggest difference I think is my use of 4 drops. Although this does slow down the deck, it gives it push for the end game. Instead of relying on the swords package to end the game, I have something like Hero/Resto to vial in for the crack back to end games.
I chose not to include Phyrexian Revoker (except as a one of in the sideboard **aka pithing needle) because I felt like it's not as good in Modern as it is in Legacy. After reading how you can name Deathrite with it, it may be a good option, also the affinity matchup. It feels a little passive for me though and I feel like there might be a more proactive strategy.
The 3 drop spot I had some trouble with. 4 of Flickerwisp I felt was an auto include to help with combat tricks, save my dude from removal, and blink effects. I felt like the main 3 drops I wanted was Kitchen Finks, Blade Splicer, Mangara of Corondor, and Mirran Crusader. I like Blade Splicer because I like having two bodies and the possibility to blink it. I like Mirran Crusader because it helps fight Goyf/Jund (although it's weak to bolt). I like Kitchen Finks because of life gain and its resiliance. Mangara is great removal but more difficult to abuse in Modern then in Legacy. I ended up going with 3 Blade Splicers and 2 Mirran Crusaders just because I felt it was the more aggresive strategy.

SIDEBOARD:
Day of Judgment is good verse hyper aggressive decks (affinity, hexproof, etc). I like it as a one of and catch all. Plus, I feel the 4 drops give a new dimension for the long game, especially when you can wrath and vial in a hero. This deck already feels like a control deck so why not. I might want to use a Corosive Gale to deal with tokens strategies.
I am not sure about Mask of Memory, but it seems good in a grindfest where they have difficulty with fliers, and against control to help draw into more action.
O-Ring good catch all, slow removal for planeswalkers, troublesome enchantments, etc.
Rule of Law vs. Storm. Want Ethersworn Canonist because it can slide down the vial, and happens faster.
Relic of Progenistus for Snapcaster, Graveyard, Goyf/Deathrite Decks. I think it should probably be 1 Relic and 2 Rest in Peace (zero masks...but we'll see).

There is a lot of good tech in the thread I have yet aquire like Kataki, Burrenton Forge-Tendor, Mana Tithe, and this sideboard definitely needs work (plus I should probably play in some tournaments around town to see what other people are playing).

Let me know what your thoughts on the maindeck are.

I assume you forgot to type the Finks in your list...otherwise those seem like a pretty glaring omission from the main deck.

One thing to keep in mind with this strategy is Thalia and her effect on your non-creature spells. A turn 4 Day of Judgment may be enough vs. some of the aggro decks in the format, but is it just as good on turn 5? Many of the faster decks will have killed you by then, and a tempo-style list will almost certainly have Cryptic Command mana up. It's also worth noting that Day of Judgment doesn't do all that much vs. all the auras with totem armor out of the Boggles decks, which is one of our weaker matchups. I've been testing out Ratchet Bomb as my wrath effect for these reasons, though it can and will hit some of our own stuff too. I'm still not sure if it's actually worth it or not...just some food for thought.

I have two issues with Phyrexian Revoker: First, you can't name a land with it...so it will never help vs. Celestial Colonnade, Inkmoth/Blinkmoth Nexus, Gavony Township etc. Second, it's a creature with 1 toughness, which opens you up to Path, Pyroclasm, Bolt, Electrolyze, Forked Bolt, Magma Jet etc...you get the idea. Pithing Needle, on the other hand, is only really vulnerable to Disenchant effects...which most opponents will leave in their board vs. us. Plus, you can name a particularly problematic land in a pinch if you can't seem to find a GQ/Tec Edge.

Fry
09-05-2013, 01:55 PM
Davran:
Yes Phyrexian Revoker is more readily dealt with, but it's also a card that does more than just sit there. It can name planeswalkers, deathrites, equipment, cranial plating, steel overseer, springleaf drum, etc. Pithing Needle, yes is harder to deal with, but it does not provide anything proactive for your plan, it only taxes, no death dealing ;)

No playing Kitchen Finks is not an oversight or a mistake. I've never played Finks in my Modern or Legacy D&T's.

mschu99:
You have a higher average CMC than I think you should with having Tectonic Edge and Ghost Quarter. Using those lands make it a lot harder to cast your CMC 4 spells and you have a lot of CMC 3 spells as well. Mangara of Corondor really does do a lot for this deck, if left unanswered you can rid yourself of anything you want. Worse comes to worse, your opponent has to deal with Mangara with a removal spell that would otherwise have been used on a Serra Avenger or another damage dealing source.

Perhaps it's just me, but I think that an integral part of Death and Taxes is Mangara. The card seems weak and pathetic until you try it and you rape your opponents face, especially with a vialed in Flickerwisp (the MVP of the deck, all day, every day) or Karakas in Legacy.

Davran
09-06-2013, 09:02 AM
Davran:
Yes Phyrexian Revoker is more readily dealt with, but it's also a card that does more than just sit there. It can name planeswalkers, deathrites, equipment, cranial plating, steel overseer, springleaf drum, etc. Pithing Needle, yes is harder to deal with, but it does not provide anything proactive for your plan, it only taxes, no death dealing ;)

No playing Kitchen Finks is not an oversight or a mistake. I've never played Finks in my Modern or Legacy D&T's.

If you're looking to shut off Affinity, Stony Silence is much more efficient and much more difficult for them to deal with. If you're hoping to shut off a Deathrite, your Revoker isn't attacking through the 1/2 body anyway, so you might as well have Needle to dodge removal. Revoker is marginally better vs. Tron where you're trying to shut off Karn and race them...but again, Stony Silence may be more effective here too since it hits their mana rocks and O-stone at the same time. Shutting off Liliana out of the jund decks is much more permanent with Needle than it ever will be with Revoker, and you're not giving them an artifact for their Goyf in the process. It's a bit of a toss-up vs. pod, but there's arguably much better sideboard options for that match-up anyway (e.g. Grafdigger's Cage, Aven Mindcensor etc.).

In terms of Finks, I have to disagree...but that may simply be my meta talking. The best thing about Finks is that it passes the Lightning Bolt test, and it will still be around after a Pyroclasm. It trades favorably with many of the creatures in the format, and gains a not insignificant amount of life in match-ups where that matters (e.g. Burn). It also gives you something else to do with a Flickerwisp or Restoration Angel (another card I think is better than people give it credit for).

mschu99
09-06-2013, 12:33 PM
Davran:
mschu99:
You have a higher average CMC than I think you should with having Tectonic Edge and Ghost Quarter. Using those lands make it a lot harder to cast your CMC 4 spells and you have a lot of CMC 3 spells as well. Mangara of Corondor really does do a lot for this deck, if left unanswered you can rid yourself of anything you want. Worse comes to worse, your opponent has to deal with Mangara with a removal spell that would otherwise have been used on a Serra Avenger or another damage dealing source.

Perhaps it's just me, but I think that an integral part of Death and Taxes is Mangara. The card seems weak and pathetic until you try it and you rape your opponents face, especially with a vialed in Flickerwisp (the MVP of the deck, all day, every day) or Karakas in Legacy.

I sort of agree with you about the CMC. I ended up cutting 1 Hero of Blade Hold, and added in 1 Fiend Hunter. The CMC for the deck is at 2.18. I haven't had too many problems with the mana in my testing. I feel like 15 White Sources and 4 Aether Vial acting as pseudo ramp helps me hit on curve.

I do feel like not having access to Karakas really hurts the Mangara plan, but I'll give it a test. It also just seems really really slow. I am going to play FNM tonight (unknown meta). I am hoping there isn't a lot of mono red burn style decks, which was the case last time I played (mostly Jund, Esper Walkers, with a little Trong and Gifts but that was a while ago). Here is the plan for tonight:

CREATURES:
4x- Dryad Militants
3x- Thalia
3x- Serra Avenger
4x- Leonin Arbiter
4x- Flickerwisp
3x- Aven Mindcensor
3x- Blade Splicer
2x- Mirran Crusader
1x- Fiend Hunter
2x- Restoration Angel
1x- Hero of Blade Hold

SPELLS:
4x- Aether Vial
4x- Path to Exile

LANDS:
14x- Plains
1x- Eiganjo Castle
4x- Ghost Quarter
3x- Tetonic Edge

SIDEBOARD PLAN:
GY Hate (3):
1x- Rest in Peace
2x- Relic of Progenitus

ARTIFACT HATE (3):
2x- Stony Silence
1x- Disenchant

STORM/AFFINITY:
2x- Rule of Law (might be too slow for Affinity)

CATCH ALLS:
2x- Oblivion Ring
1x- Phyrexian Revoker

REMOVAL PACKAGE/HYPER AGGRESIVE (4):
1x- Sunlance (I want more turn one plays to kill mana accelerants without giving them land)
2x- Dismember
1x- Day of Judgment


***On Kitchen Finks***
I understand it's utility against aggresive style decks and life gain is great. However, I just feel that Blade Splicer kind of serves the same role (stoping ground assaults), and has a stronger blink effect then Kitchen Finks. I think Blade Splicer/Mirran Crusader is a more aggresive pacakage and fits the gameplan of get 'em dead a little bit better. Truth be told, I have not tested the Kitchen Finks, and it might be necessary.

Davran
09-06-2013, 01:45 PM
***On Kitchen Finks***
I understand it's utility against aggresive style decks and life gain is great. However, I just feel that Blade Splicer kind of serves the same role (stoping ground assaults), and has a stronger blink effect then Kitchen Finks. I think Blade Splicer/Mirran Crusader is a more aggresive pacakage and fits the gameplan of get 'em dead a little bit better. Truth be told, I have not tested the Kitchen Finks, and it might be necessary.

The thing about Crusader is that it dies to all forms of red removal while providing zero return on investment. Lightning Bolt is pretty much the premier removal spell in the format (as opposed to Path to Exile), so you really have to keep it in mind when building a deck. If your main deck plan is to run out a Crusader for beats, most decks will be able to answer that pretty easily. Finks, on the other hand, is much more resilient to Bolt and friends. On top of that, it's going to give you back a little bit of life and it makes a passable Wisp target if it's all you've got. To me, Crusader is more of a meta call if you're expecting to run up against more Abrupt Decay type decks than Bolt decks, and even then probably only out of the board for those specific match-ups. You're really trading one point of damage per combat for a more resilient body, some synergy with the rest of the deck, and a tiny life swing. Whether or not that's worth it is your call, but I certainly recommend at least testing it out.

mschu99
09-06-2013, 02:42 PM
The thing about Crusader is that it dies to all forms of red removal while providing zero return on investment. Lightning Bolt is pretty much the premier removal spell in the format (as opposed to Path to Exile), so you really have to keep it in mind when building a deck. If your main deck plan is to run out a Crusader for beats, most decks will be able to answer that pretty easily. Finks, on the other hand, is much more resilient to Bolt and friends. On top of that, it's going to give you back a little bit of life and it makes a passable Wisp target if it's all you've got. To me, Crusader is more of a meta call if you're expecting to run up against more Abrupt Decay type decks than Bolt decks, and even then probably only out of the board for those specific match-ups. You're really trading one point of damage per combat for a more resilient body, some synergy with the rest of the deck, and a tiny life swing. Whether or not that's worth it is your call, but I certainly recommend at least testing it out.

For sure. I definitely agree with you that it's a metagame call. Crusader just seems like such a beating against pod decks. But you are right, maybe I should focus more on beating lightning bolt.

Fry
09-06-2013, 08:18 PM
If you're worried about heavy red decks, play Burrenton Forge-Tender in your side, it's an excellent card and stops any red damage, it is not targeted, stops Progenitus even. If you are so afraid of burn or any other sort spell that you don't play some cards that are quite good, then you probably shouldn't be playing this deck.

I agree that Phyrexian Revoker is considerably easier to deal with that Pithing Needle, but the Needle does not give you a clock, adds no pressure. Which was my point entirely and that seems to have been missed. I understand the point about Needle, don't get me wrong, but with D&T's you want to have each card you have to be a threat. Revoker has game against every single deck out there, may not be overly strong in some match ups, but that's when you side them out for stronger match up specific cards.

That's my two cents, feel free to constructively disagree.

mschu99
09-07-2013, 03:31 AM
Ended up going 3-1 tonight at FNM. Played a UB control, 2 Affinity (1-1) and Melira pod. Affinity matchup was by far the most difficult. I also had some games against a guy playing Esper gifts control. We played about 5 or 6 games, and didn't lose once to his deck.

See my list posted above.

Round 1: UB Control
Games 1--She couldn't beat a resolved Mirran Crusader. She was trying to mill me out by causing me to search my library with ghost quarter and then cast a card for free that made me mill 13 or something. Sideboard--+more removal, removed some flyers that were weak to Vampire Nighthawk. Game 2: resolved to many threats for her to answer, and had enough removal for her defensive creatures. Hero of Bladehold finished the game fast.

Game 2--Affinity. Game 1--tight squeeze, but was able to outrace him for a game 1. Sided in affinity hate (disenchant, stony silence, more removal). Game 2--close race, but he was able to Arcbound Ravenger and move all of the toughness to a creature I couldn't block and I didn't have any removal. Game 3--Stony Silence on turn 2. He conceded.

Game 3--Melira Pod. Game 1--I like this matchup a lot, plus the guy playing it was a very good pilot. Ghost Quartered him off of mana to slow him down enough and take him out with fliers. Early Leonin Arbiter kept him in check for a good chunk of the game. Sideboard--Removal and graveyard hate. Game 2--close match, had him down to 3 but was able to combo off a turn before he would have died. He fought through 2 Leonin Arbiters and Aven Mindcensor to get the combo off. Game 3--the grudge match came down to the wire. I had him dead on board with fliers. He had pod, Melira, and a punch of birds and ground pounders. I squeezed his mana with a Mindcensor mid game and the Aven answered a Ranger of Eos. For some reason I decided to put the Eos under a Fiend Hunter. He killed the Fiend Hunter after killing the Mindcensor and was able to get birds and shamans to get the mana up and running again. The turn before I would have killed he goes to pod the Ranger to try and get his combo pieces in place. I flash in Restoration angel, blink flickerwisp and use it to remove Melira for a turn in order to prevent the combo. He conceded to that.

Game 4--Affinity. Game 1: I had him down to 6 and he was able to gain life with a Vault Scurge and Arcbound to put him back up to ten. Etched Champion is such a beating and kept my ground pounders in check. (p.s.--score one for Blade Splicer--it blocks etched champion). Vialed in a Hero and swung. Took him down to 1 but couldn't get that last extra point. Sideboard see above. Game 2: Similar situation but I kept a loose one with a vial, a stony silence, and no plains. Vial ended up getting destroyed. I drew the plains a little late and the stony silence wasn't effective since he had already created an army. I battled back and had the board stabilized with me at 9 life. I was going to win the following turn when he attacked with etched champion and the double galvanic blasted me out of the game. So it goes...

Thoughts:

Oblivion Ring is a useless sideboard card. I didn't bring it in once. But I might keep one in the sideboard. I brought in Day of Judgment v. Affinity but never saw it. It probably would have been useful, however thinking about that matchup they are able to rebuild way easier. I think Kataki, War's Wage should be a 3 of in the sideboard. It works the same as a day of judgment basically, plus can be vialed in and takes out lands. So maybe 2-3 Kataki, 2 Stony Silence. I liked having access to extra removal like Sunlance and Dismember.

Blade Splicer was a beast. Although I don't feel like it's my best creature, if left unchecked things get out of hand. I felt like the Melira Pod matchup can't handle flying creatures, and I kind of wanted the 4th Serra Avenger against them. I am not sure though, but Blade Splicer definitely helped to win several games.

Overall though the maindeck worked great. Thalia didn't do much against most of the decks I played against (besides the control matchup before the tournament), but she's a great beater early. Nothing like turn 1 Dryad Militant, turn 2 Thalia and some free beats. Thalia against pod kind of sucks just because they can remove it really easily with red cap etc.

Flickerwisp was a champ. Great tempo removal, blink effects. Kick Butt champion of the tournament.

Although I didn't face any red removal centric decks, I still feel really soft to that. I don't think Kitchen Finks would have won me any races, but I still want to look at it more.

Here is an updated sideboard I think I want:

1x--Sunlance
2x--Dismember
1x--Relic of Progenitus
2x--Rest in Peace
2x--Kataki, War's Wage
2x--Stony Silence
2x--Burrenton Forge-Tendor
2x--Ethersworn Cannonist
1x--Tempest of Light

I think that sideboard is pretty strong for an unknown meta, but has some especially useful answers for Affinity. I kind of want to have an extra Kataki, but I am not sure what to take out.

Caporacolo
09-08-2013, 11:51 PM
Hello guys, since the shop i play in usually gets big tournament (40-50 ppl) on wednesday night, i wanted to try to build a D&T-like modern deck to test out, since i don't like playing the usual decks that fill the meta.

I tried to sort out this list and i ended up 4th among like 37-38 players. I'm not going to make a report, just to expose my choices and explain them.

2 Fiend Hunter
2 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mirran Crusader
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Serra Avenger

2 Brave the Elements
4 Path to Exile
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Sword of War and Peace
4 Aether Vial

1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Tectonic Edge
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Forbidding Watchtower
13 Plains

Sideboard:

2 Spellskite
3 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Kor Firewalker
2 Leonin Relic-Warder


i ran 61 md cards since i wanted to try some cards (brave the elements md for example and wanted to test revoker, one of my favourite cards in Legacy, also in modern)

Since my metagame is full of pods, BG Midrange and Decay is the most abused card, i found myself perfectly good with 3 mirran crusaders main deck. I also wanted to run them since i played 3 equipments.

4 Serra avenger are the main beater's package of the deck, it is just broken.

Thalia, Leonin and Mindcensor are the usual hatebears white color has to offer in modern.

Flickerwisp is just too good: it just does everything. Resets plainswalker, resets revoker if needed, resets vial if needed, removes permanents for a whole turn, saves your own permanents from like everything.

Linvala is just wonderful since now my modern metagame is full of Scavenging ooze, and it also stops pod, twin, deathrite, lavamancer etc.

Fiend Hunter works well with Flickerwisp and has a nice body (still under bolt though). Against some MU i sided them out and replace them with oblivion rings.

Phyrexian Revoker: ok, this is a strange card in modern, unlike legacy d&t, where it is useful in almost every MU except a very few, and you can also protect it. Sometimes i felt like i wanted 10 of them, sometimes i found them ok, but not so great. They can give you almost everytime that turn you need to survive though.


Then, i think that 4 vials and 4 paths are self-explained.

Brave the Elements was never a dead draw (almost never). It was able to protect my field from pyroclasm, from big attacks and also made possible my alpha strikes.

3 Swords: They are good, sometimes very good, other times just a removal-magnet. I also like when people waste their pulse or decay on my swords than on my creatures (but i think it's a common feeling :P)

I was thinking of switching a RW sword into a BW to get into recursion of creatures which seems just too good for me to not be exploited.

I don't think i need to explain the lands, i don't like too much tectonic edges, but as a fifth "wasteland" slot it is good. Also the Forbidding Watchtower is just a blocking wall which stops almost everything.


Sideboard:

Spellskite is just broken in Modern, it's useful almost against everything.

Rest in Peace simply destroys many decks i use to play with in here.

Oblivion Ring and Leonin Relic-Warden are so synergic with Flickerwisp, even though i didn't use the leonin very much.

Kor Firewalker is just there for Burn and fast aggro decks like RG aggro or something like that.

Now Stony Silence is a bit antisynergic with vials, swords and even spellskite, but i usually side it in where i don't need vials, spellskite and 1 or 2 swords may come out to make room for some other hate card in sideboard.

Phoenix Ignition
09-09-2013, 03:22 AM
I'm playing this deck a lot online, but not completely ready to put an opinion down other than this:

Everyone should play 1 Flagstones of Trokair main (at least).

I understand the antisynergy with Leonin Arbiter, but just 1 isn't going to hurt you from Legend rule. What it will do is allow you to have a way to fetch out an extra plains if you want to Ghost Quarter it, and this deck so badly needs deck thinning over long games. I'm losing the very late game due to just drawing plains/vials.


Not really something that will happen often, but there's absolutely no reason not to do it (Blood Moon is laughable and that's about all I could think of that "hurts").

EDIT: made a typo, fixed it

Davran
09-09-2013, 08:16 AM
I'm playing this deck a lot online, but not completely ready to put an opinion down other than this:

Everyone should play 1 Flagstones of Trokair main (at least).

I understand the antisynergy with Leonin Arbiter, but just 1 isn't going to hurt you from Legend rule. What it will do is allow you to have a way to fetch out an extra plains if you want to Ghost Quarter it, and this deck so badly needs deck thinning over long games. I'm losing the very late game due to just drawing plains/vials.


Not really something that will happen often, but there's absolutely no reason not to do it (Blood Moon is laughable and that's about all I could think of that "hurts").

EDIT: made a typo, fixed it

I've been trying out Horizon Canopy for this exact reason, and so far it's been totally worth it. I only have one right now due to the recent price spike, but I'm planning on picking up some more in the near future...though I'm not sure what the "right" number is.

I also saw on a forum somewhere (MTGS maybe?) someone advocating Mask of Memory as a way to dig through the deck. Haven't tried it yet though...

Phoenix Ignition
09-09-2013, 12:46 PM
I've been trying out Horizon Canopy for this exact reason, and so far it's been totally worth it. I only have one right now due to the recent price spike, but I'm planning on picking up some more in the near future...though I'm not sure what the "right" number is.
Good idea, I'll try 1 out over a Plains. The life drain kind of hurts but since we're mono white (at least my current version is) we already start out with ~+5 life more than our opponents.


I also saw on a forum somewhere (MTGS maybe?) someone advocating Mask of Memory as a way to dig through the deck. Haven't tried it yet though...
I'm really wary of using equipment in this deck. It just seems unnecessary in a lot of matchups and the deck is so mana intensive already... I might try it out though, we'll see.

Davran
09-09-2013, 03:41 PM
Good idea, I'll try 1 out over a Plains. The life drain kind of hurts but since we're mono white (at least my current version is) we already start out with ~+5 life more than our opponents.

I'm mono-white right now too, and it's been working out pretty well. I haven't had the life loss be relevant yet with Canopy as a 1-of since it tends to show up when I already have other lands and/or a charged up Vial...though that will obviously change as more are added to the deck. I'm not sure I would ever go up to a full playset, but I would pay 2-3 life to draw a card in this deck, so something like 2 Canopies may be the "right" number.

It may also be worth considering one of the white Scry lands coming out with Theros - the tempo loss in the early game might not be worth it, but Plains #5 with Scry 1 attached certainly could be.


While we're on the topic of mono-white - has anyone had any success vs. Infect with anything in particular out of the board? I can't seem to find anything that actually works vs. the deck other than sticking a Thalia and hoping they get screwed on lands.

Phoenix Ignition
09-09-2013, 05:32 PM
Okay so I've tested out Mask of Memory enough to say I don't think it's worth it. The investment of 3-4 mana (thalia or not) is quite a bit for a somewhat underwhelming ability, and everyone you equip it to already is within bolt range. If I'm going to run a couple equipment in here it would probably be some of the Swords, most likely Feast + Famine or Fire+Ice.

I'm considering the idea of going splash black for Dark Confidant and a little more for kill spells. Zealous Persecution seems like it would help in a lot of matchups I've been losing to and black has some decent other sideboard stuff. I probably won't though, as it's pretty awesome not having to worry about colors.

The all-stars in my sideboard right now are 2x Ghostly Prison. You might want to try them against infect, as they are a very mana-low deck. It shuts down Inkmoth pretty well and also makes them pump OR swing, but not both. Bonus is it's incredible against any deck running blue (they can't just swing with Snapcaster, vendilion, etc. for free, they have to pick counterspell mana or 2 damage), crushes the new wave of Young Pyromancer combo decks, and effectively stops merfolk.

Davran
09-10-2013, 08:47 AM
Okay so I've tested out Mask of Memory enough to say I don't think it's worth it. The investment of 3-4 mana (thalia or not) is quite a bit for a somewhat underwhelming ability, and everyone you equip it to already is within bolt range. If I'm going to run a couple equipment in here it would probably be some of the Swords, most likely Feast + Famine or Fire+Ice.

Good to know. I would also consider War + Peace if you go down the sword road since the UWR decks tend to have a hand full of red and white removal and a bunch of blanked counters vs. us. Pro red/white also gets you past some of the more common dorks out of the pod decks (Finks etc.) and blanks Redcap/Orzhov Pontif as "removal" spells. It's also somewhat relevant vs. Soul Sisters, which as far as I can tell is our worst possible match-up (to the point of being nigh unwinnable).


I'm considering the idea of going splash black for Dark Confidant and a little more for kill spells. Zealous Persecution seems like it would help in a lot of matchups I've been losing to and black has some decent other sideboard stuff. I probably won't though, as it's pretty awesome not having to worry about colors.

Bob certainly could be a strong option to power through mana flood and into business spells, but I agree with you about the mana base. Also, splashing a color generally means fetchlands for stability (especially since some of our better cards cost WW), which makes Leonin Arbiter worse while potentially feeding a Deathrite Shaman out of our opponent.


The all-stars in my sideboard right now are 2x Ghostly Prison. You might want to try them against infect, as they are a very mana-low deck. It shuts down Inkmoth pretty well and also makes them pump OR swing, but not both. Bonus is it's incredible against any deck running blue (they can't just swing with Snapcaster, vendilion, etc. for free, they have to pick counterspell mana or 2 damage), crushes the new wave of Young Pyromancer combo decks, and effectively stops merfolk.

I'll have to try those out...I had initially dismissed them because they seemed too slow. The infect player at my LGS tends to go all-in on his first dork, putting me up to a quick 6 poison or so. Blade Splicer tends to be a pretty solid roadblock if I can live that long, but Nexus and the unblockable guy are always a problem if I don't draw a Path or he's holding Vines. I've actually debated something like Judge's Familiar or Mana Tithe just to blow him out...but those cards are pretty crappy everywhere else. Maybe someday Mental Misstep will get unbanned and the no skill poison deck will cease to exist. A man can dream...

Phoenix Ignition
09-10-2013, 01:09 PM
Small report, I went 2-2 in a MTGO daily yesterday.

Deck list + SB:

1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Tectonic Edge
1 Horizon Canopy
12 Plains

4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Serra Avenger
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Blade Splicer
4 Flickerwisp
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Restoration Angel
2 Mangara of Corondor

SB:
2 Blind Obedience
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Leonin Relic-Warder
3 Ghostly Prison

SB choices: Blind Obedience is great against mono red, which is more popular online than I'd expect elsewhere. It's also stops Splinter Twin completely.

Match 1: Affinity 1-2 (Lost the die roll)
Game 1 he gets a turn 1 Ornithopter + Steel Overseer. I path it immediately but the game spirals out of control with an Etched Champion + manlands against my barely interactive creatures (he got double Inkmoth + double Blinkmoth to threaten my 3/3 angels).

Game 2 Ghostly Prison almost completely shuts him down and I'm able to do enough tricks with Aether Vials and Flickerwisp that I get the win barely, against 2 active Cranial Platings.

Game 3 I get crushed by a Cranial and another 4 cards on turn 1 hand. I can stall for a while but don't hit any sideboard cards other than Leonin Relic-Warder, which IMMEDIATELY eats a Whipflare (along with 2 other creatures of mine). Oh god, that card is so much pain.

0-1

Match 2: Mono U Tron 2-0 (won die roll)
Game 1: I get a god hand against him in terms of speed, along with double vials. I don't cast anything and completely blank his Condescends+ Remands. At last he taps out for a Wurmcoil but I had it all and Path it.

Game 2: He has a slightly more interactive hand and I don't have the nuts this time, and he Repeals an early Vial. Luckily he just can't find the 3 Trons (completely his doing, I didn't have shit to stop him), and I eventually just beat him to death while he doesn't draw anything. Weird game.

1-1

Match 3: Splinter Twin 2-1 (lost die roll)
Game 1: He has 1 turn left to live but top decks the kiki-jiki. Happens sometimes.

Game 2: Ghostly Prison + Blind Obedience in play mean he digs all game and doesn't find answers.

Game 3: Ghostly Prison comes down again after I bait him to counter something else. Then I get to Flickerwisp his dude in response to Splinter Twin, although Ghostly was still down and I don't think he had a bounce ready for it.

2-1

Match 4: Birthing Pod 0-2 (lost die roll)
Game 1: Able to stall for a while, but he hardcasts Archangel of Thune and the race is over. Then he uses a Metamorph on it and his 2 Birds of Paradise are 3/4s by the time I'm able to combat trade off the angels (he swings into an "open" field but I can vial in trades both times). God that was painful. That's enough to stall through my guys until he Pods into another Archangel of Thune + Spike Feeder for infinite combo.

Game 2: I get Stony Silence, Leonin Arbiter and a land flood after I mulligan. I eventually bash him down and double Ghost Quarter/Strip Mine his lands, but he natural draws into his Archangel + Feeder combo to win it.

2-2, no prize for me

Overall I think more will need to be done against Pod, which is weird considering we have 7 maindeck search stopping affects. The problem is Pod takes such little mana that Leonin Arbiter doesn't really count. Their creatures are big and they have the "stumble into the win" ability.

Affinity he got good draws and I blame myself for not mulliganing harder game 3. I had a very keepable hand against any other matchup, but considering I had Stony Silence + Ghostly Prison in the deck, I probably should have done more. I think my hand was 2x Land, 1x Aether Vial, 1x Path, 1 Flickerwisp, 1x Thalia, 1x Blade Splicer or something like that. It's good but on the draw it's pretty slow.

Also, Mangara main is kind of unimpressive. That 2x slot could definitely go to an equipment or something else, dunno what yet.

Davran
09-10-2013, 02:24 PM
Match 4: Birthing Pod 0-2 (lost die roll)
Game 1: Able to stall for a while, but he hardcasts Archangel of Thune and the race is over. Then he uses a Metamorph on it and his 2 Birds of Paradise are 3/4s by the time I'm able to combat trade off the angels (he swings into an "open" field but I can vial in trades both times). God that was painful. That's enough to stall through my guys until he Pods into another Archangel of Thune + Spike Feeder for infinite combo.

Game 2: I get Stony Silence, Leonin Arbiter and a land flood after I mulligan. I eventually bash him down and double Ghost Quarter/Strip Mine his lands, but he natural draws into his Archangel + Feeder combo to win it.

2-2, no prize for me

Overall I think more will need to be done against Pod, which is weird considering we have 7 maindeck search stopping affects. The problem is Pod takes such little mana that Leonin Arbiter doesn't really count. Their creatures are big and they have the "stumble into the win" ability.

I've actually never heard of this version of Pod...is it actually a thing people are adopting? Seems like Pithing Needle and/or Phyrexian Revoker naming Spike Feeder shuts off that line of play, search or not...maybe those are more useful than Mangara in the main? There's Linvala, Keeper of Silence too...but maybe that's too slow? Then again, it does shut off their other combo lines as well (Viscera Seer, Kiki-Jiki, Varolz etc.) and it's not completely dead vs. other decks in the meta either. It's also worth noting that it has 4 toughness which puts it firmly our of range of everything except Path and Dismember.

Phoenix Ignition
09-10-2013, 03:16 PM
Lin Vala might help. I'm not so sure though, as they have some bigger fatties than we can handle. I assume this is going to be the new line of play for Pod decks, as it makes their dudes infinity big while giving them infinity life for the small cost of a 3 drop and a 5 drop, the 5 drop being pretty amazing on its own.

The angel is something we just can't get through without a Path, though, and that's the scary part. One thing I will try out is putting some Fiend Hunters in the maindeck, it seems like it would help out in some of the matchups.

Davran
09-11-2013, 09:05 AM
Lin Vala might help. I'm not so sure though, as they have some bigger fatties than we can handle. I assume this is going to be the new line of play for Pod decks, as it makes their dudes infinity big while giving them infinity life for the small cost of a 3 drop and a 5 drop, the 5 drop being pretty amazing on its own.

The angel is something we just can't get through without a Path, though, and that's the scary part. One thing I will try out is putting some Fiend Hunters in the maindeck, it seems like it would help out in some of the matchups.

Huh, I wouldn't have thought of Fiend Hunter...but it does seem like a nice tool, especially with a Wisp for some tricks. Maybe something like this?

4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Serra Avenger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Blade Splicer
4 Flickerwisp
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Restoration Angel

4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial

1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Tectonic Edge
13 Plains

The 2 Revokers could easily be something else, but it's starting to seem like every deck in the current meta has at least one relevant target. I think the most obvious missing piece here is Aven Mindcensor, but I haven't been all that impressed with them lately in the main anyway.

In terms of a sideboard...maybe something like:

2 Ghostly Prison
2 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Stony Silence
3 Burrenton Forge-tender
2 Leonin Relic-warder
3 Chalice of the Void

Caporacolo
09-11-2013, 10:10 AM
I see many of you run Kitchen Finks main deck. I don't really like them since i usually prefer some more hate or useful creature in place of them, but i was considering instead of them Aven Riftwatcher.

Aven Riftwatcher

Creature — Bird Rebel Soldier 2/3, 2W (3)
Flying

Vanishing 3 (This permanent enters the battlefield with three time counters on it. At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a time counter from it. When the last is removed, sacrifice it.)

When Aven Riftwatcher enters the battlefield or leaves the battlefield, you gain 2 life.

I think i prefer this over Persist, he is still very good with Flickerwisp and 2/3 2W for a flying creature is good for this deck.

Has anybody yet tried it?

Davran
09-11-2013, 11:02 AM
I see many of you run Kitchen Finks main deck. I don't really like them since i usually prefer some more hate or useful creature in place of them, but i was considering instead of them Aven Riftwatcher.

Aven Riftwatcher

Creature — Bird Rebel Soldier 2/3, 2W (3)
Flying

Vanishing 3 (This permanent enters the battlefield with three time counters on it. At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a time counter from it. When the last is removed, sacrifice it.)

When Aven Riftwatcher enters the battlefield or leaves the battlefield, you gain 2 life.

I think i prefer this over Persist, he is still very good with Flickerwisp and 2/3 2W for a flying creature is good for this deck.

Has anybody yet tried it?

I ran Riftwatcher for a while before switching to Finks. The reason I ultimately switched is Lightning Bolt and it's presence in the format. Imagine these scenarios:

1. You cast a Riftwatcher and I cast a Bolt.

Net outcome is you gain 4 life, and I'm down a Bolt.

2. You cast a Finks and I cast a Bolt.

Net outcome is you gain 4 life, have a 2/1 in play, and I'm down a Bolt.

Which of these seems better?

Finks is also a little more useful in combat since the extra power is often relevant and you're getting at least a small body back to chump block and/or Flicker later.

All that said, I do like Riftwatcher over Finks vs. burn and similar decks. Your first Flickerwisp potentially nets you an extra 2 life over a Finks, and each one beyond that can put the game out of reach for them. Riftwatcher is also a little better vs. Path to Exile in terms of life gain, but that doesn't tend to be all that relevant vs. Path decks.

I also like Riftwatcher better if you're on the Sword of X and Y plan due to the evasion...but as we discussed above, I don't think equipment is very good in the deck right now.

mschu99
09-11-2013, 07:47 PM
Man this deck is so much fun to play. I have not played Modern in a while, and built this deck on a whim. It's so great to watch your opponent tap out for something, vial in leonin, then ghost quarter/tec edge 2-3 mana, tick vial up to 3 and say go!!!!!!!!!!!!

This deck definitely plays like a controlish tempo style deck. I feel like I am always in a race, and went to turns against some people. Not due to my slow play, but just because they are trying to figure out how to get around the lockdown we end up having. So many decisions and fun interactions. The evasion with flying I think keeps me wanting to play the white version with flickerwisp and stuff rather then tapping into the green, however Wilt Leaf Liege is such a beating.

There was an interesting theros spoiler in Soldier of the Pantheon I saw the other night:
W
2/1
Protection from Multicolored.
Whenever an opponent casts a multicolored spell, you gain 1 life.

Quick thought about this, having two on the field means pod can't combo off...wait not true...they totall still can (persist is not casting it...whoops...)

But it still could be good, avoids abrubt decay...dies to every other removal spell like alll the others...But it's a 1 drop with potential evasion...

I guess I am wondering how often does Dryad Militant's ability come into play (v. snap caster decks, v. storm--not as heavy on the scene, v. flashback spells). I mean I don't know. Do you think this card could be a potential replacement for the Judge's Familiar/Dryad Militant?

Phoenix Ignition
09-11-2013, 08:29 PM
I don't think I'd take out Mindcensor, just being flash makes him a valuable blocker against a decent number of decks and he's still great against Scapeshift and okay against Tron (although statistically I'm getting shat on by them finding exactly what they want in the top 4 every single time but that's not a good reason).

I'm not terribly impressed with Kitchen Finks at the moment, either. I like him better than Riftwatcher since he's much better against red and Liliana decks, but just in general a 3/2 for 3 is underwhelming. A lot of people have bigger creatures or walls/spellskites to get in the way. I might even just consider him a sideboard slot and run Phyrexian revokers and Fiend hunters instead.

The rest looks fine except the Chalices. I don't know what they're for, but most combo decks are at X=2 and hitting 4 mana before they get going (or 5 if you windmill Thalia, which I would against combo) isn't feasible. At X=1 you don't take out too many spells, especially since they would have already had a chance to play some.

Davran
09-12-2013, 08:34 AM
I don't think I'd take out Mindcensor, just being flash makes him a valuable blocker against a decent number of decks and he's still great against Scapeshift and okay against Tron (although statistically I'm getting shat on by them finding exactly what they want in the top 4 every single time but that's not a good reason).

You're probably right. I think I'm biased by the same shitty statistics - it seems like every time I drop a Mindcensor they've got the Electrolyze or whatever and they just go on their merry way.


I'm not terribly impressed with Kitchen Finks at the moment, either. I like him better than Riftwatcher since he's much better against red and Liliana decks, but just in general a 3/2 for 3 is underwhelming. A lot of people have bigger creatures or walls/spellskites to get in the way. I might even just consider him a sideboard slot and run Phyrexian revokers and Fiend hunters instead.

I'll give this a shot tomorrow night and see what happens. Finks is nice in my meta because there are a lot of aggro decks, so a Finks is a straight up 2 for 1 when blocking quite a bit of the time. That said, Fiend Hunter has similar stats and acts as removal, which is probably even better.


The rest looks fine except the Chalices. I don't know what they're for, but most combo decks are at X=2 and hitting 4 mana before they get going (or 5 if you windmill Thalia, which I would against combo) isn't feasible. At X=1 you don't take out too many spells, especially since they would have already had a chance to play some.

I had Chalice as a potential board-in vs. Boggles and Soul Sisters on the play since both of those decks give us fits. It handily turns off Boggles with the exception of Daybreak Coronet and Spirit Mantle/Unflinching Courage (if they're running them), and they can't Coronet without another enchantment anyway. Similarly, the "combo" out of Soul Sisters is all 1 mana dorks (Sisters, Martyr, Ascendant). That leaves them with Squadron Hawks and Ranger of Eos, which we can easily handle in combat since they won't even have Path.

You're absolutely right in that it doesn't hate on combo - that's what Rest in Peace/Grafdigger's Cage are for.

All that said, I'm still on the fence about the Chalices. I may try and just run without them and try to shore up those matches in other ways.

Given the above discussion, here's my potential list for tomorrow night:

4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Serra Avenger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Blade Splicer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel

4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial

1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Tectonic Edge
13 Plains

Sideboard:
3 Burrenton Forge-tender
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Leonin Relic-warder
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Tempest of Light

Phoenix Ignition
09-12-2013, 12:09 PM
Would Ratchet Bomb be better in the Chalice slot? Added bonus is it's reactive so you don't need to get it before the enchantment deck starts playing a million spells. Hidden detriment is that Totem Armor kind of shuts down a lot of Ratchet Bomb's power, but at least you could wipe some of the enchantments off and possibly block it again. Might be decent against tokens too.

Also, if your meta is aggressive and has a lot of decks where Finks is blocking 2/2 or 2/3s you should play him main. It's just that online I've been seeing a shift away from the aggro creature type of deck. That looks like the list I'd try out next online, though.

EDIT: Oh, and I'm done trying to use Relic Warder. He's never been good to me, with all the Affinity decks playing red with Whipflare and most Tron decks having some type of answer for him. He always dies right away if he would have been good or just sits in my hand as something that doesn't help at all.

Davran
09-12-2013, 01:13 PM
Would Ratchet Bomb be better in the Chalice slot? Added bonus is it's reactive so you don't need to get it before the enchantment deck starts playing a million spells. Hidden detriment is that Totem Armor kind of shuts down a lot of Ratchet Bomb's power, but at least you could wipe some of the enchantments off and possibly block it again. Might be decent against tokens too.

I'm not really sure what the solution is for Boggles. The biggest pain is the hexproof dorks since we have no way to interact with them outside of combat. If they run out a dork and some auras without totem armor, then Ratchet Bomb works just fine even though it also destroys our Vial(s). If they run out an aura with totem armor, Ratchet Bomb will get the auras, but not the dork. The other thing is that not all of their auras are 1 CMC. I've seen Daybreak Coronet, Spirit Mantle and Unflinching Courage out of these decks, which are just as good when stuck on a hexproof beater. Maybe there is no real solution to this matchup...can't win vs. everything after all.

Ratchet Bomb is better vs. Tokens for sure, and could also be relevant vs. other random decks too. That alone might make it the right call.


EDIT: Oh, and I'm done trying to use Relic Warder. He's never been good to me, with all the Affinity decks playing red with Whipflare and most Tron decks having some type of answer for him. He always dies right away if he would have been good or just sits in my hand as something that doesn't help at all.

I don't think I'd bring Relic-warder in vs. Tron. Stony Silence is the nuclear option in that matchup, and to a lesser extent Pithing Needle/Revoker. Your best case target is what, a mana egg or maybe an O-stone? Wurmcoil is a target I guess, but I'd much rather hold a Path for that...especially since Pyroclasm is something they'll bring in against us.

Phoenix Ignition
09-12-2013, 01:44 PM
I'm not really sure what the solution is for Boggles. The biggest pain is the hexproof dorks since we have no way to interact with them outside of combat. If they run out a dork and some auras without totem armor, then Ratchet Bomb works just fine even though it also destroys our Vial(s). If they run out an aura with totem armor, Ratchet Bomb will get the auras, but not the dork. The other thing is that not all of their auras are 1 CMC. I've seen Daybreak Coronet, Spirit Mantle and Unflinching Courage out of these decks, which are just as good when stuck on a hexproof beater. Maybe there is no real solution to this matchup...can't win vs. everything after all.

Ratchet Bomb is better vs. Tokens for sure, and could also be relevant vs. other random decks too. That alone might make it the right call.
Ghostly Prison is really good in this matchup too, making them decide whether they want to enchant or swing. If you can get some Ghost Quarters with Leonin Arbiter out they play so few lands they might not ever be able to swing.



I don't think I'd bring Relic-warder in vs. Tron. Stony Silence is the nuclear option in that matchup, and to a lesser extent Pithing Needle/Revoker. Your best case target is what, a mana egg or maybe an O-stone? Wurmcoil is a target I guess, but I'd much rather hold a Path for that...especially since Pyroclasm is something they'll bring in against us.

Well, blue tron doesn't have as many answers but I agree Relic-Warder isn't the greatest. Wurmcoil is an auto-loss if you aren't holding one of your 4 Paths, so I don't mind moving that up to 6 post board (I guess this is why Fiend Hunter is a good option now, too). But I also don't think it's that great versus any other decks right now.

Davran
09-23-2013, 09:51 AM
Here's a quick report from FNM

The Deck:
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Serra Avenger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Blade Splicer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Restoration Angel

4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile

1 Horizon Canopy
1 Eiganjo Castle
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Tectonic Edge
13 Plains

Sideboard:
3 Burrenton Forge-tender
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
1 Aven Mindcensor
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Rule of Law

Round 1 vs. URb Delver

I had a hunch that my opponent was on this deck after he loudly announced that he forgot his Cryptic Commands at home and couldn't play UWR because of it prior to the tournament start. +1 to scouting skill. Game 1 is a little strange in that he doesn't have the deck's namesake Delver at all. He makes a good fight of things with a series of Bolts and Snapcaster Mages, but a turn 1 Aether Vial is enough to keep the pressure up and get the job done. Sideboarding: Out 2x Fiend Hunter, 2x Serra Avenger In 2x Burrenton Forge-tender, 2x Ghostly Prison. He leads with a Delver game 2, which clears the way for my Vial. From there, he plays the "can't ever flip this Delver" game while I deploy some beaters. He has Bolts for my golems and I have a Wisp for his Delver when it finally flips. Ghostly Prison does some work here vs. his Mutavaults, forcing him to decide between holding up for mana leak or attacking. The game ends when I stick a Restoration Angel after baiting a counter with something irrelevant.

1-0, 2-0 in games

Round 2 vs. URW Geist

Another +1 to scouting as my Round 2 opponent was sitting next to me during the last round. Game 1 goes relatively quickly on the back of a Turn 1 Vial and a constant parade of threats. He's able to stick a Geist and 6 me through a Vialed in Blade Splicer with a Path to Exile, but I have another blocker for the following turn. He lands a Delver and I answer with a Fiend Hunter, clearing the way for my Restoration Angel and Kitchen Finks attack squad to get the job done. Sideboarding: Out 2x Serra Avenger, 2x Fiend Hunter In 2x Burrenton Forge-tender, 2x Ghostly Prison. My opponent doesn't even touch his sideboard here, which seems to indicate that sticking a Vial will still be the best plan. I mull into a 6 with Vial and a few threats and we're off to the races. I stumble on white mana for a while, but the Vial is able to do plenty of work making up for it. My opponent decides to 2 for 1 himself when I use a Flickerwisp to save a Finks from a Path with another Path in an effort to save his Geist from blocks. I deal with the Giest the following turn and the game goes downhill for him from there since I now have plenty of white mana to work with.

2-0. 4-0 in games

Round 3 vs. Affinity

I'm surprised to learn that my opponent is on affinity as there has not been an affinity deck in the local meta for a long time. His deck does what it does game 1 and we're off to game 2. Sideboarding: Out 2x Aven Mindcensor, 2x Fiend Hunter In 2x Stony Silence, 2x Ghostly Prison. I lead with Vial into Ghostly Prison and I'm feeling pretty good about my position. Then my opponent rips Wear//Tear off the top and things get much, much tougher. I lose a few turns later to a Vault Skirge suited up with a pair of Platings.

2-1, 4-2 in games.

I end the night in second place for a bunch of packs and a Promo Experiment One.

Overall, I was pretty happy with the list. There were plenty of awkward hands full of three drops, which was definitely an issue vs. affinity. Moving forward, I think I'm going to try dropping one of the Fiend Hunters for the Revoker out of the board to make room for a Kataki. Revoker might just be better overall given that Jund is apparently the thing to be doing in this format...still.

It looks like Theros doesn't hold anything exciting for this deck...however Anger of the Gods could be problematic if it starts to see play. Another reason to keep Forge-tenders in the board and Restoration Angel in the main I guess...

Phoenix Ignition
09-23-2013, 01:42 PM
If affinity gets a Wear/Tear it looks like that's going to just crush everything we can do to stop them.

I wonder if, and stick with me here I know it's stupid, we try Icatian Javelineers in here somewhere? It may be too stupid to actually work, but there are a few problem creatures in most decks that wouldn't be terrible to kill (Bob, 1/2 of Affinity, Snapcaster/Vendilion). And he even gets a new Javelin when he blinks!!

Nah, that probably is too stupid. It may be better to just play good cards and hope they don't get the nuts hands WITH their sideboard hate.


Anyway, I think your switch sounds reasonable (Fiend Hunter for Revoker).

ScatmanX
09-23-2013, 01:52 PM
If affinity gets a Wear/Tear it looks like that's going to just crush everything we can do to stop them.
Kataki, War's Wage?

Phoenix Ignition
09-23-2013, 02:28 PM
True, Kataki can help. He probably slows them down as much as Ghostly Prison would.

The only problem being he's not that great against any other deck in the format, and since affinity doesn't play artifact lands if he comes down late he might not end up changing the game at all. Definitely worth a shot, though.

Davran
09-23-2013, 07:35 PM
If affinity gets a Wear/Tear it looks like that's going to just crush everything we can do to stop them.

I don't really think this is the end of the world, it just happened to be a sick 2 for 1 off the top in that game (he hit my Vial and Prison). In order to cast both halves, he needed both of the Springleaf Drums he had in play as well as some creative creature taping (Blinkmoth Nexus was involved). If I had drawn/resolved a Stony Silence first this never would have happened...because the only way they're getting white mana without an artifact is Glimmervoid, and it's not like we can't deal with a land. I imagine the Wear/Tear is in specifically for Stony Silence, but now that I know it's there I'll be a little more aggressive with the Ghost Quarters on Glimmervoids. To my knowledge, he had zero basic lands in the deck too since he never fetched one out as his Nexi died.


I wonder if, and stick with me here I know it's stupid, we try Icatian Javelineers in here somewhere? It may be too stupid to actually work, but there are a few problem creatures in most decks that wouldn't be terrible to kill (Bob, 1/2 of Affinity, Snapcaster/Vendilion). And he even gets a new Javelin when he blinks!!

I tried Javelineers as a 2 of back when I first started playing the deck. The problem I always had with it was the lack of haste - generally you want their x/1 to die right now (e.g. Confidant, Vault Skirge), not next turn after they drew a card and/or suited it up with a plating and swung in for a billion. It's also no good as a "surprise!" off of Vial post-combat. I think if I were going to go the route of adding more removal, I would start with Sunlance or maybe even Oust. The sorcery speed is a little rough, but since Javelineers doesn't have haste it's pretty much the same thing. Plus, both of those cards are relevant in a greater number of match-ups because they kill other problematic stuff (e.g. Deathrite Shaman, Melira etc.).


Anyway, I think your switch sounds reasonable (Fiend Hunter for Revoker).

Thanks for the confidence. I feel like I'm stumbling around trying to find the optimal list at this point, so it helps when others agree with my thinking.


Kataki, War's Wage?


True, Kataki can help. He probably slows them down as much as Ghostly Prison would.

The only problem being he's not that great against any other deck in the format, and since affinity doesn't play artifact lands if he comes down late he might not end up changing the game at all. Definitely worth a shot, though.

I like to live the dream in my head where Affinity dumps their whole hand turn 1 on the draw and we blow them out with Kataki. I mean, forcing them to pay :1: to keep their lands around is pretty rough. The thing is, it only works as a blowout once. Since we likely already lost game 1, any reasonable opponent will play around it for game 3, and it's not quite as good on the draw since they'll potentially have 1-2 more mana producing things to work with by the time we cast it. Accordingly, I think Kataki is more of a supplemental plan than the main plan. For that, Stony Silence is still king of the heap as I discussed above. Also keep in mind that Thalia is still in the deck, and while they do play mostly creatures they're still stuck paying more for Plating, Opal, Drum etc.

RE: artifact lands - the version I saw on Friday was running at least two Darksteel Citadels. Maybe that's atypical (I don't see affinity much in my meta)...but he would often lead off with one to boost his artifact count for Opal or whatever. In fact, the only lands I saw out of him were Blinkmoth Nexus, Citadel, and Glimmervoid. He didn't fetch any basics off of Path or GQ either.

**EDIT: Kataki is also a big time non-bo with Blade Splicer. Granted we should have access to more mana than the affinity deck, but still. The golem beat down squad is one of the faster ways we can win vs. them.

Phoenix Ignition
09-23-2013, 09:14 PM
RE: artifact lands - the version I saw on Friday was running at least two Darksteel Citadels. Maybe that's atypical (I don't see affinity much in my meta)...but he would often lead off with one to boost his artifact count for Opal or whatever. In fact, the only lands I saw out of him were Blinkmoth Nexus, Citadel, and Glimmervoid. He didn't fetch any basics off of Path or GQ either.


They do play those 4 but I was referring to how Modern and Legacy differ by the banning of the other artifact color-making lands. While Kataki is good against Modern Affinity, against Legacy Affinity it was a blow out, since it hits close to 100% of their permanents. They got to choose to keep either their lands or their creatures for a single turn.

The affinity lists I've run into have 4x Blinkmoth Nexus, Inkmoth Nexus, Glimmervoid, Darksteel Citadel, and usually at least 1 basic (along with Springleaf Drum and Mox Opals). So around 3/4ths of their lands aren't effected by Kataki, leaving them enough stuff to pay for most of their threats.

Barook
09-25-2013, 03:45 AM
This deck seems like an interesting budget option for MODO.

How does it perform in the metagame (especially MODO)? What are its good and bad match-ups?

Davran
09-25-2013, 08:34 AM
This deck seems like an interesting budget option for MODO.

How does it perform in the metagame (especially MODO)? What are its good and bad match-ups?

Not sure what the MODO meta is like since I play paper...but as for match-ups:

UR Delver - I would say this one is in our favor, especially if we can resolve a Vial. We have plenty of creatures they have to answer, so the burn plan disappears pretty quickly.

Affinity - We'll almost assuredly lose game 1 unless something strange happens. Post board, it really depends on your draw - if you stick a Stony Silence you're going to have a pretty good time.

Tron - We have a lot of ways to keep them off Tron and stop them from searching their deck. One of our better match-ups.

Pod - Similar to Tron, we have lots of ways to stop them from searching their deck. Unfortunately, this deck can and will just randomly draw into the win no matter how much hate you play. I'd say the match-up is around 50-50, and maybe as good as 70-30 post board.

UWR - As with UR, resolving a Vial makes it pretty hard for this deck to win. It's also worth noting that we can put some serious hurt on their mana base. In my experience, this has been a pretty favorable match.

Poison - One of our weaker match-ups as they are faster and can easily blank our removal. Game 2 really comes down to resolving a Ghostly Prison or a Spellskite, but even then that might not be enough.

Soul Sisters/Martyr Proc - Nigh unwinnable. We're mostly focused on whittling away their life total, and their life total is generally huge.

Boggles - I find this one difficult as well because their creatures are hexproof. You can sometimes ambush them with Vial, but more often than not you're staring down a trampling frog with a large power. Ghostly Prison is some help out of the board, but as the game wears on even that looses it's effectiveness.

Jund - Believe it or not, I've not actually had the "pleasure" of playing vs. this deck - someone else might have some better insight.

Splinter Twin - See Jund.

Burn/RDW - Depending on your list, this can be favorable or unfavorable. Kitchen Finks really helps here, and Burrenton Forge-tender out of the board is beastly. Our land destruction doesn't actually do anything unless they're splashing for Bump in the Night/Path to Exile/Boros Charm, but Thalia is a pretty big game vs. them. It's worth noting that they'll often aggressively play untapped shock lands, so getting the win through the combat step is often pretty trivial.

Fish - See Jund and Splinter Twin.

Phoenix Ignition
09-25-2013, 01:01 PM
I agree with Davran's analysis, with a few minor changes:

Affinity: Terrible, if they "go affinity" on you, you don't win. We don't have maindeck hate for Cranial Platings, and our clock really isn't fast enough to take them out before they can just equip it to manlands and hit us. Honestly one of the worst matchups.

Splinter Twin: With my sideboard (Ghostly Prison + Blind Obedience) post-board it's really good. Pre-board it's much more difficult, as the game plan is "Race, and hope to hit enough Paths to go through their hate"

Pod decks: Also not favorable, which is funny with all of the anti-search cards we play, although Leonin Arbiter is easy for them to pay for with all their mana dorks. One problem versions without equipment have is that we can't beat their big creatures and usually can't kill them before they resolve. They can also just combo finish you if the game goes on too long and they draw their creatures.

Poison: Not that bad, in my experience. The large amount of fliers we play can get in their way pretty well, and they don't have much hate against us that works. One problem is they can kill you with Inkmoth without ever getting the 4th land to put your Tec edges online.

Fish: Not that great, really opening hand dependent. If you don't get an Aggressive hand you'll just lose. Ghostly Prison help some after boarding but without more removal we can't try to beat them late game.

Jund: The true 3 color jund lists are a bit easier than just GB since we can try to keep them off their colors. Bob absolutely murders us with card advantage, same with a turn 2 Lily, but if they don't have those early you'll probably win. Rest in Peace is MVP sideboard.

In general this deck has some issues that all Vial decks have. Without any card drawing you can lose mid-late game with bad draws, even if you were mildly ahead the whole time up to then. It can lose to swarm decks since it only has 4 removal, which affinity and Soul sisters capitalize on.

On the plus side, though, it has good matchups against decks like Tron, which creature decks normally don't. It can win games by Ghost Quarter + Leonin arbiter on turn 3 and just completely shut out the opponent from then on. It's also a deck that relies a lot on skill, when and what to blink with Flickerwisp/Restoration Angel.

As for the MODO metagame, it's pretty diverse. A lot more GBx have been popping up, thanks to the recent GP results. Pod decks are everywhere, Tron is a huge portion of the metagame (actually I don't think I've played a daily where I didn't run into Tron), and then random stuff like Burn, Graveyard Shenanigans, UWR control. There are usually like 70 players in Daily Events, so with that big a tournament you can run into anything.

Davran
09-25-2013, 03:14 PM
Splinter Twin: With my sideboard (Ghostly Prison + Blind Obedience) post-board it's really good. Pre-board it's much more difficult, as the game plan is "Race, and hope to hit enough Paths to go through their hate"

Am I missing something with Blind Obedience here...? What prevents them from going off in your end step, thus untapping the tokens on their turn? I agree that in combination Prison + Obedience is probably quite hard for them to beat, but just Obedience on its own doesn't seem all that backbreaking.


Poison: Not that bad, in my experience. The large amount of fliers we play can get in their way pretty well, and they don't have much hate against us that works. One problem is they can kill you with Inkmoth without ever getting the 4th land to put your Tec edges online.

Maybe it's just my local poison player...but Blighted Agent can be tough for me to deal with, and he often brings Phyrexian Crusader in out of the board. We're essentially banking on both drawing PtE and him not having Ranger's Guile/Vines of Vastwood/Apostle's Blessing...which is a pretty tall order post-board. I haven't had the opportunity to resolve a Ghostly Prison vs. him yet, so maybe that's why our opinions on this matchup are so different.


On the plus side, though, it has good matchups against decks like Tron, which creature decks normally don't. It can win games by Ghost Quarter + Leonin arbiter on turn 3 and just completely shut out the opponent from then on. It's also a deck that relies a lot on skill, when and what to blink with Flickerwisp/Restoration Angel.

I'll echo the play skill requirement. You really need to know what to Flicker when, which creatures to cast vs. vial in etc. As with any deck, that comes with practice...so don't get discouraged right away if things don't work out in your first couple events. I'll also take it a step further and suggest that you need to have a pretty good level of knowledge about your meta too - for example I find Finks to be necessary while others don't simply because I see a lot of aggressive decks.

Barook
09-25-2013, 03:40 PM
Thanks for the insight.

What's the reason the general builds don't seem to run equipment? SFM and Jitte aren't options since they banned, but why no Sword of X and Y? Too expensive with sac lands and Thalia?

I guess Blade Splicer gets prefered over Mirran Crusader due to the amount of flicker effects the deck runs.

Phoenix Ignition
09-25-2013, 04:29 PM
Am I missing something with Blind Obedience here...? What prevents them from going off in your end step, thus untapping the tokens on their turn? I agree that in combination Prison + Obedience is probably quite hard for them to beat, but just Obedience on its own doesn't seem all that backbreaking.
Ghostly Prison is the main help, but Blind Obedience does slow Kiki down. You're right that if they wait till the end of your turn they can start activating Twin, but that gives you a full turn, with them most likely tapped out, to Flickerwisp/Path the target that has the Twin attached to it. It shuts down their turn 3 Deceiver, turn 4 Twin, kill you. Saving a Flickerwisp/Fiend Hunter for this scenario gives us more outs.




Maybe it's just my local poison player...but Blighted Agent can be tough for me to deal with, and he often brings Phyrexian Crusader in out of the board. We're essentially banking on both drawing PtE and him not having Ranger's Guile/Vines of Vastwood/Apostle's Blessing...which is a pretty tall order post-board. I haven't had the opportunity to resolve a Ghostly Prison vs. him yet, so maybe that's why our opinions on this matchup are so different.
Blighted Agent is one of those that can be "Path or Bust", but if you can get a vial at 3 or Flicker + Resto you can usually blank a few of their pump spells, which almost always slows them down enough to win you the game.


Thanks for the insight.

What's the reason the general builds don't seem to run equipment? SFM and Jitte aren't options since they banned, but why no Sword of X and Y? Too expensive with sac lands and Thalia?

I guess Blade Splicer gets prefered over Mirran Crusader due to the amount of flicker effects the deck runs.

Equipment is tough to find time for, both from the reasons you said (Thalia, sac'ing your own lands to kill the opponent's) as well as saving up mana for Aven Mindcensor/Resto Angel. And on games where you don't find Vial, you'll find it hard to play equipment instead of more dudes. This deck is way more mana hungry than I originally expected.

Blade Splicer is a meta call, probably, but Mirran dies to bolts/paths/possibly Liliana without any advantage whereas you get a 1/1 or a 3/3 against those respectively.

Fry
09-26-2013, 02:11 AM
I agree with Davran's analysis, with a few minor changes:

Affinity: Terrible. We don't have maindeck hate for Cranial Platings. Honestly one of the worst matchups.

Pod decks: Also not favorable, which is funny with all of the anti-search cards we play.

Poison: Not that bad.

Fish: Not that great.

Jund: The true 3 color jund lists are a bit easier than just GB since we can try to keep them off their colors.


Not sure what the MODO meta is like since I play paper...but as for match-ups:

UR Delver - I would say this one is in our favor.

Affinity - We'll almost assuredly lose game 1 unless something strange happens.

Tron - We have a lot of ways to keep them off Tron and stop them from searching their deck. One of our better match-ups.

Pod - Similar to Tron, we have lots of ways to stop them from searching their deck. I'd say the match-up is around 50-50, and maybe as good as 70-30 post board.

UWR - As with UR, resolving a Vial makes it pretty hard for this deck to win. It's also worth noting that we can put some serious hurt on their mana base. In my experience, this has been a pretty favorable match.

Poison - One of our weaker match-ups as they are faster and can easily blank our removal.

Soul Sisters/Martyr Proc - Nigh unwinnable. We're mostly focused on whittling away their life total, and their life total is generally huge.

Boggles - I find this one difficult as well because their creatures are hexproof. You can sometimes ambush them with Vial, but more often than not you're staring down a trampling frog with a large power. Ghostly Prison is some help out of the board, but as the game wears on even that looses it's effectiveness.

Burn/RDW - Depending on your list, this can be favorable or unfavorable.

I agree with some of this and completely disagree with several match up responses:

Affinity: I'd say that it's an interesting match up that can go either way game one, leaning in their favor if they play it well, but definitely winnable, post board makes it considerably better.

Pod decks are fairly easy, we have a lot of main board hate, revokers do a lot of work in most match ups and arbiter/mindcensors make people cry

Soul Sisters/Martyr Proc: Not easy, but certainly winnable, revokers pull a bunch weight here on the martyrs, and mangara with or without wisp does a number.

WUR: Certainly agree it's fairly good for us, delver versions can be a bit annoying, but with our removal and mass of fliers, not shabby at all. More control versions have a hard time with an active Vial, makes them sad...

Fish: Interesting match up here, it's a challenge for sure, if they more than 2 lords in play together, you're probably not going to win, still can, but hard. One or two lords isn't too shabby, I'd say this one is very slightly in their favor.

Poison: Can be a blow out win for us with our removal/fliers, but with that said, if they have blessings when you try to do something about it, it's going to hurt like mad. I'd say our favor, but they definitely can get some pretty fast wins.

Tron: Hard to deal with turn three Karn, but I've beaten that several times, it's more the pyroclasm that does work for them against us than anything else, but Forge-Tenders from the board makes light work.

Rock: It's a hard match up. They have discard to deal with our threats before we can use them and they often have removal for when we do stick stuff. I'd say their favor, especially if we don't have an answer to Bob before their next turn... Though I often let them keep Bob if they have more than one in play and just eat it if they swing with them/beat face with fliers.

Jund: Considerably easier than Rock, the third color requires them to fetch more and easier to lock out of a color with our Quarters and Tectonics.

Boggles: Not shabby. Can pump out chump blockers and beat with fliers, can also get rid of the enchantments with Mangara and Flickerwisps game one, side board has Relic-Warders (in some builds anyway/screws Affinity too, them Relic-Warders ^_^ )

Burn: Can be nasty, but they run out before we run out of creatures most of the time, definitely hard though. Forge-Tenders from the side make it a lot better

Living End: Revokers are amazing here, name the Pale Recluse, Valley Rannet, and Twisted Abomination first and foremost. Hitting the land cyclers is key. They help them more than any other creature they have. Thalia makes them have 5 mana to Living End

Twin: UR is annoying, and kind of coin flippish game one, side helps a lot (Looking at you again Relic-Warder)
UBR is pretty hard, discard to take card of business and more removal options for our hate bears.

I will admit that my lists for decks are never "conventional" I suppose would be the best way of putting it, but they definitely fall under the correct category. For instance here's my Modern D&T's list:

3x Aven Mindcensor
4x Flickerwisp
4x Leonin Arbiter
4x Mana Tithe
4x Mangara of Corondor
4x Path to Exile
4x Serra Avenger
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Æther Vial
4x Phyrexian Revoker

1x Eiganjo Castle
4x Ghost Quarter
3x Tectonic Edge
13x Plains

Side:
4x Burrenton Forge-Tender
3x Celestial Purge
2x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Imposing Sovereign
3x Leonin Relic-Warder

I went 5-1 with this list at GP Detroit (lost rounds 7 and 9 due to having to double mull once in each match, and lost in the game 3's... I was salty for that reason since both match ups are definitely winnable, as was my first loss [Living End of all things, easy win too with my list, played an extra game there and crushed him 3 of 5 games since it was round two and we had more than ample time before the next round])

Played against:
Boggles: easy win in under 15 minutes

Storm: Thalia, Canonist, Tithe, do a bunch here

Twin: twice, lost one due to a double mull in game one(the grixis version I played) on the play and the opponents take my vial when I keep a tec edge, vial, thalia, wisp, arbiter hand and brick on a second land for a few turns.

Living End: Lost, two Thalia total in the set of 3 games, same story with the revokers, sacking Forge-Tenders when they go off is kind of nice though, saw a lot of Path's and Arbiters though in all three games

Pod: Won in 15-20 minutes tops, they can't deal with so much stuff here

Fish: plenty of Path, LD on Mutavaults, Mangara Lords.

Rock: won game three since I let both of his Bobs live when he was fairly low on life, they won me the game "Greatness at any cost"

I had a random bye.

Constructive critique/questions about my list are as always, welcomed. Just don't start calling a card bad if you've never played it before in the format (IE: Mana Tithe, does amazing work, people never think of it and never play around it even if they've seen it [Save if it was from a Probe/Discard], wins games).

Barook
09-27-2013, 03:45 PM
@Fry: Interesting list, I'll give it a spin.

What's the purpose of Celestial Purge in the board? Is Imposing Sovereign relevant enough to run it over GY hate?

Phoenix Ignition
09-27-2013, 06:07 PM
I can't really comment on how good your changes are (4x Mana Tithe + 4xMangara), but I'd imagine that changes your matchups quite significantly.

Celestial Purge is probably worth playing right now, I'll try it out. All the GBxx decks running Liliana, Chandra (sometimes), Dark Confidant(who kills us if we don't kill him immediately), DRS, some even Ajani Vengeant, seems like it's a good call.

Barook
09-27-2013, 06:30 PM
From the few test games I've played so far, Mana Tithe was overall pretty great.

Can't say much about Mangara, though. Without Restoration Angel, the only way to pull tricks with him is through a vialed-in Flickerwisp. Whether or not he's worth it as a slow Vindicate is up to debate.

Fry
09-28-2013, 01:02 AM
Part of why there is a set of Mangara is because if they don't answer it, they can be completely screwed, it's not a huge deal if you don't have flicker tricks with it either, EOT vial in Mangara is also pretty darn nasty. It's an answer now card which keeps some of the removal from hitting your Avengers or hate bears.

Kayradis
10-01-2013, 07:17 AM
Played the deck last night.
Ended 3-1 (2nd place).

Here's my list at the moment

MAINDECK

3 x Judge's Familiar
3 x Dryad Militan
3 x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 x Leonin Arbiter
1 x Phyrexian Revoker
2 x Serra Avenger
3 x Aven Mindcensor
2 x Mirran Crusader
3 x Flickerwisp
3 x Mangara Of Corondor
2 x Hero Of Bladehold

12 x Plains
3 x Tectonic Edge
3 x Ghost Quarter
4 x Mutavault

4 x Path To Exile
1 x Dismember
4 x Aether Vial
1 x Oblivion Ring
1 x Sword Of Fire And Ice

SIDEBOARD

1 x Phyrexian Revoker
1 x Mangara Of Corondor
1 x Rest In Peace
2 x Dismember
2 x Brave The Element
2 x Kataki, The War's Wage
2 x Ethersworn Canonist
2 x Blind Obedience


I can't seem to recall my last Sideboard cards... Dammit. Ill edit tonight!

Round 1 vs Merfolks
2-0 (Judge's Familiar and Mindcensor did most of the beatdown.)

Round 2 vs Robots
2-1
Lost G1, but G2 and 3, a T2 Kataki was GG for him.

Round 3 vs Twins
1-2
All 3 games were really close games (he was at 1 or 2 usually) and sticking to the mana denial plan in those matches is probably the best option.

Round 4 vs Melira Pod
2-1
He crushed me game 1 after stabilizing a 2 life then infinite life combo with Archangel of Thune/Spike Feeder
Game 2 I played the mana denial plan then resolved an Hero Of The Bladehold for the beatdown plan.
Game 3 I stuck and early Mirran Crusader to the board then Vialed-in a Mindcensor when he tried to activate his pod.

Overall?

I'm getting rid of the mutavaults, probably gonna add Eiganjo Castle to protect Thalia/Mangara and bumping up the Tec Edges/Ghost Quarters to 4 each

Kataki is nuts against Robots.

I'm not 100% convinced of the O-Ring mainboard. I really like Ajani, Caller Of The Pride and might do a 1-for-1 swap and switch the O-Ring to the SB.

The deck is actually quite well positionned at the moment in the meta game. I was debating splashing :b: for Dark Confidant based on our low curve, but flipping Hero Of The Bladehold can be quite backbreaking in tight matchs.

I might also try to push the Humans a bit more and include 1 or 2 Cavern Of Souls to ensure an early Thalia, Guardian Of Thraben in the control match-up. If I go down that path, I'd cut the Blind Obedience in the SB and switch them for Imposing Sovereing.

The deck can still find improvements in the near future, but it's a good deck! I like it and I'm seriously thinking quitting storm in Modern for this deck.

Davran
10-01-2013, 09:08 AM
List

How did you find all of the 1 drops? I cut them after a while because they didn't seem to be doing all that much (Judge's Familiar especially). Also, is Mangara actually worth it? I have Blade Splicers in those slots, and it's been a pretty big beating for my opponents. Lastly, did you give any consideration to Restoration Angel over Hero of Bladehold? The angel gives you another way to blink Mangara if you're still on that plan, and it's often harder for your opponents to profitably block.


I'm getting rid of the mutavaults, probably gonna add Eiganjo Castle to protect Thalia/Mangara and bumping up the Tec Edges/Ghost Quarters to 4 each

I agree with this move - the deck is pretty mana hungry, so trying to activate Mutavault can be pretty difficult. You might also consider a couple of Horizon Canopy to help prevent flood. I've been quite happy with the one in my list and am looking to pick up another once the price evens out some.


I'm not 100% convinced of the O-Ring mainboard. I really like Ajani, Caller Of The Pride and might do a 1-for-1 swap and switch the O-Ring to the SB.

Ajani is interesting, and not something I thought of previously. The +1/+1 counter has some utility with Kitchen Finks (if you run them), which can be nice vs. burn and fast aggro decks. The double strike ability might be nice too...although I would much rather have it when blocking to deal with pesky things like Vault Skirge to prevent the life gain. If we're going to consider planeswalkers, Elspeth, Knight-errant might be worth some discussion too.

Kayradis
10-01-2013, 09:41 AM
TL;DR

I REALLY liked the Judge's Familiar. I see them as a mana tithe on a stick. If I had to cut 1 drops, I'd cut the Dryad Militants over the Judge's Familiar.

I don't run the finks. They are pretty good, I agree, but they don't fit with what your deck wanna do.

Ajani + Thalia/Mirran Crusader/Any beater is amazingly good. I've proven it in the Summer season of standard by going 4 FNM in a row 4-0/3-1 since not a lot of decks have answer for a juiced-up Thalia or Mirran Crusader. I was thinking about Resto. Angel > Hero's Of Bladehold, but HoB is such a pain in the ass to deal with when you're facing it. Still. It requires more testing to have a conclusive answer.

Mangara is so damned good. I'm not even looking to do the cute combo. Im just using him as an Acidic Slime 90% of the time and destroying land. The mana denial plan is the #1 Wincon IMHO.

Still.
Lot more testing to do before have a fixed list!

Davran
10-01-2013, 10:27 AM
I REALLY liked the Judge's Familiar. I see them as a mana tithe on a stick. If I had to cut 1 drops, I'd cut the Dryad Militants over the Judge's Familiar.

Except it isn't a Mana Tithe on a stick as it only hits instants/sorcery and it's an on-board trick. I never once had an opponent walk into one while I was playing them. In terms of the "stick" part, a 1/1 flyer is hardly something to write home about, and more often than not I was throwing it in front of a Goyf or something without ever using the counter function.

I mean, look at the best possible case here - you lead with a Vial, tick it up to one and what...vial it in as a Mana Tithe for a Spell Snare on your Thalia?


Ajani + Thalia/Mirran Crusader/Any beater is amazingly good. I've proven it in the Summer season of standard by going 4 FNM in a row 4-0/3-1 since not a lot of decks have answer for a juiced-up Thalia or Mirran Crusader.

Standard is not modern, but I'm still intrigued enough by this to test one out at FNM this week. Hopefully it comes up so we can discuss the results.

Kayradis
10-01-2013, 10:40 AM
If you have a modern FNM, play it out!
If not....well...No thalia for you my friend!

Davran
10-07-2013, 09:45 AM
Here's a quick report from FNM last week.

The list:
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Serra Avenger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Blade Splicer
1 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Restoration Angel

4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial

1 Ajani, Caller of the Pride

1 Horizon Canopy
1 Eiganjo Castle
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Tectonic Edge
13 Plains

Sideboard:
3 Burrenton Forge-tender
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Rule of Law

Round 1 vs. UR Twin

Game one was surprisingly interesting...mostly because my opponent couldn't find his combo. We went back and forth for the better part of 25 minutes, with me keeping up pressure in the air and him blowing Pestermites just to stay alive. At one point, he had all 4 Deceiver Exarchs in play. I manage to get him down to 1 with more than lethal on the board and he rips Twin off the top for the win. Sideboarding: Out 3x Kitchen Finks, 1x Ajani, Caller of the Pride; In 2x Ghostly Prison, 2x Burrenton Forge-tender. I keep a 7 that features Thalia and a Revoker, so I'm feeling pretty good. He hits his third land and spikes a Pyroclasm, but I've drawn a 2nd Thalia. I'm able to rebuild and keep him off of red mana for a while, getting him down to 2 life. He casts a Spellskite with two Exarchs on the field, and I let it resolve. He then drops a red source and casts Splinter Twin, with one Island open. I have a Path to Exile and Restoration Angel in my hand, with a Flickerwisp in play. Since he's on two life, he can only use the Spellskite once. Trouble is, I only have 5 mana...and Thalia is still doing her thing. In hindsight, I should have used the Ghost Quarter I had in play to try and take out his open land - he may have been out of basics. I figured that the deck generally plays more than the 4 islands he had in play, but it was at least worth a shot. That was a particularly frustrating loss, but hey...sometimes that's Magic.

0-1, 0-2 in games

Round 2 vs. Affinity

I was somewhat confused to be facing off against the affinity deck in the looser's bracket as this guy usually cleans up. Game one was again interesting. I slam a turn 2 Thalia into a turn 3 Revoker naming Cranial Plating, which is enough to slow him down for a while. Interestingly, he uses a Galvanic Blast the following turn to stop a Vialed in Serra Avenger from blocking his Vault Skirge rather than killing the Revoker...but I wasn't complaining. The game ends after I resolve Ajani, buff up a Flickerwisp, and swing with a bunch of flyers. I'm pretty stoked after my first game 1 win vs. affinity. Sideboarding: Out 4x Leonin Arbiter, 1x Ajani, Caller of the Pride; In 2x Stony Silence, 2x Ghostly Prison, 1x Kataki, War's Wage. Game 2 isn't very exciting for me. He does the affinity thing turn 1, and kills me pretty quickly after that with a pair of Etched Champions. No sideboarding changes for game 3. We both take a mulligan to 6, and I keep with Stony Silence, Thalia, and lands. I lead with the Stony Silence, and have to remind my opponent that he can't use his Darksteel Citadel for mana as he tries to cast a Plating. I brick for several turns drawing land after land, but my Stony Silence/Thalia duo is making it pretty hard for him to actually do anything. A steady stream of Tectonic Edges keeps him off of colored mana and various Nexi as I start to assemble an attack squad. I'm finally able to present an actual clock, and win the game a few turns later.

1-1, 2-5 in games

Round 3 vs. Poison

Game 1 wasn't very eventful. I keep a 7 with Vial, Thalia and a pair of Path to Exile to my opponent's mulligan to 5, and we're off. He spends a pair of fetchlands before scooping to Thalia and a Blade Splicer on the stack...which I felt was somewhat premature. I mean, I knew that it was pretty hopeless for him based on my hand...but still...scooping before your turn 3 is pretty lame. Sideboarding: Out 2x Phyrexian Revoker; In 2x Ghostly Prison. I keep a strong 7 as my opponent mulls to 6. He leads with Pendelhaven, and I lead with a Vial. He plays a Glistener Elf that he obviously just drew and passes. I run out Thalia. I take my two posion from the elf as he only has the Pendelhaven in play, and he passes back without playing a land. My opponent mumbles about how he shouldn't have kept his hand, and again scoops with Blade Splicer on the stack. He makes some salty remarks about my deck and sideboard choices...apparently I should have left the Revokers in for his 2 of Spellskite and brought in Aven Mindcensor...but I don't rise to the bait having just won the match pretty handily.

2-1, 4-7 in games

I end the night in third for a Ghor-clan Rampager promo and a pack of Theros.

Some thoughts about the list and sideboard:

1. Ajani - I think this card is probably a little win-more. It only came up once during the night, and at the time I was already far enough ahead that I was willing to hold off on a Wisp and some other stuff to try it out. It was often the first thing I sideboarded out, and I think in the future I'll just leave it on the sidelines. In terms of what to run in it's place, I think I'm going to try and get an Aven Mindcensor back in the main...or maybe a third Revoker.

2. Ratchet Bomb - I think I'm going to drop to only one of these in the board as a hedge against the tokens player we sometimes have. Instead, I'm going to run a Blind Obedience...it would definitely have made a difference vs. the Twin player as I would have had the extra turn I needed in both games.

3. Etched Champion - this guy is an absolute beating vs. us. I tried to get creative with land destruction and Wisp tricks in one game to remove one, but there's nothing we can do about Darksteel Citadel...so the Champion stuck around for the kill. I thought about maybe trying something like Fracturing Gust...but it seems like it might be too slow. The thing I like about it though is that it could also come in vs. Boggles...for whatever that's worth. Ultimately, I think we might be stuck trying to race this thing...or hoping to get the trade with Blade Splicer golems.

I've also been debating a third Ghostly Prison in the board...but I don't think there's space. Props to PhoenixIgnition for suggesting it, that thing is a house in the format.

Kayradis
10-07-2013, 12:34 PM
Mangara of Corondor can deal with Darksteel Citadel. I've been using him in the mana-denial plan and he's good at it!

Davran
10-07-2013, 01:28 PM
Mangara of Corondor can deal with Darksteel Citadel. I've been using him in the mana-denial plan and he's good at it!

Except I don't think we really care about Citadel. I mean, the affinity deck has two modes: all of the artifacts! and none of the artifacts. More often than not, they're on the all of the artifacts! plan. In this situation, the ability to eat a random Citadel will rarely break up affinity, and by the time we can vial/cast and activate Mangara (turn 4) cooking off a random Citadel won't even slow them down. If we really cared about Citadel, Revoke Existence would arguably be a better choice since it can be cast earlier during their development, potentially hindering them further.

I think we just have to accept that Etched Champion is a card that kills us if our opponent's deck is working as intended.

Kayradis
10-07-2013, 01:31 PM
I totally agree. More reason why Kataki has 2 slots in the SB and I'll probably mull my G2 hand if I dont have fast answers to my opponent's threat.

Phoenix Ignition
10-07-2013, 02:29 PM
1. Ajani - I think this card is probably a little win-more. It only came up once during the night, and at the time I was already far enough ahead that I was willing to hold off on a Wisp and some other stuff to try it out. It was often the first thing I sideboarded out, and I think in the future I'll just leave it on the sidelines. In terms of what to run in it's place, I think I'm going to try and get an Aven Mindcensor back in the main...or maybe a third Revoker.
That's too bad, he looks fun. Probably the correct choice though, and at least I won't have to buy one now.


2. Ratchet Bomb - I think I'm going to drop to only one of these in the board as a hedge against the tokens player we sometimes have. Instead, I'm going to run a Blind Obedience...it would definitely have made a difference vs. the Twin player as I would have had the extra turn I needed in both games.
I'm a big fan of Blind Obedience still, it just wins against burn decks and can slow down random things like Tron or give you the needed extra turn against UR Twin. It's definitely more powerful than it looks at first glance.


3. Etched Champion - this guy is an absolute beating vs. us. I tried to get creative with land destruction and Wisp tricks in one game to remove one, but there's nothing we can do about Darksteel Citadel...so the Champion stuck around for the kill. I thought about maybe trying something like Fracturing Gust...but it seems like it might be too slow. The thing I like about it though is that it could also come in vs. Boggles...for whatever that's worth. Ultimately, I think we might be stuck trying to race this thing...or hoping to get the trade with Blade Splicer golems.
I think Etched champion is just one of those things you have to live with. Splicer does well against it, but really being protection from colors means it's not viable to try to sideboard against. Fracturing Gust is just too expensive, even though it would be hilarious.


I've also been debating a third Ghostly Prison in the board...but I don't think there's space. Props to PhoenixIgnition for suggesting it, that thing is a house in the format.
3 can be good although I've lost with 2 on the field before. Cranial Plating is enemy number 1 if you're playing Ghostly Prisons, but I think you might be better off than I was with Revokers main. Ghostly Prisons are really damn good, though, especially since they hit our hardest matchups (cheap fast swarm decks).

ScatmanX
10-07-2013, 03:10 PM
That's too bad, he looks fun. Probably the correct choice though, and at least I won't have to buy one now.
Has anyone tested 1 Mimic Vat here? It is quite mana intensive, but it works great with Kitchen Finks, Splicer, Flickerwisp, Angel, and even Thalia against cobo once they dealt with it. You can also use it on their End Step, to keep the creature during your turn. Imagine having a Hero of Bladehold there.

Another inor plus is removing something from Melira combo with Persist =D

Phoenix Ignition
10-07-2013, 03:27 PM
Mimic Vat
I haven't tried it out but my initial assumption is that it's just waaay too mana intensive (especially main deck). It also dies to Abrupt Decay, which some Melira run maindeck, and all Jund do (and they often are the decks you'd want to run it against).

Phoenix Ignition
10-08-2013, 04:02 AM
Interesting GW list popped up in the top 16 at GP Brisbane:

60 cards

1 Forest
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Horizon Canopy
3 Plains
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Tectonic Edge
4 Temple Garden
24 lands

3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Baneslayer Angel
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
2 Loxodon Smiter
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Spellskite
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
29 creatures

1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Path to Exile
2 Sword of War and Peace

Sideboard
1 Auriok Champion
1 Back to Nature
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Rest in Peace
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Stony Silence
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Torpor Orb

Davran
10-08-2013, 11:31 AM
Has anyone tested 1 Mimic Vat here? It is quite mana intensive, but it works great with Kitchen Finks, Splicer, Flickerwisp, Angel, and even Thalia against cobo once they dealt with it. You can also use it on their End Step, to keep the creature during your turn. Imagine having a Hero of Bladehold there.

Another inor plus is removing something from Melira combo with Persist =D


Mimic Vat
I haven't tried it out but my initial assumption is that it's just waaay too mana intensive (especially main deck). It also dies to Abrupt Decay, which some Melira run maindeck, and all Jund do (and they often are the decks you'd want to run it against).

Mimic Vat is not something I would have thought of. Ultimately, I think it may be too mana intensive for the format though. I think the most likely comparison in these terms is to Swords of X and Y, which most of us already leave at home due to their cost. I think a better plan is to Vial in a Fiend Hunter or something with the persist trigger on the stack hitting the Melira or sac outlet. It would be pretty hilarious with a Flickerwisp/Restoration Angel under it though!

Re: The GP Brisbane list -

This seems somewhat similar to what Kibler piloted a few months ago...to the point of it almost being an entirely different deck. It seems to be banking much more on the midrange plan than the taxing plan. I think the most interesting card that none of us are running (not counting all the green) is Crucible of Worlds. Personally, I've never found myself short of land destruction because Tectonic Edge is not Wasteland. I tend to get them to 3 lands and either win or lose from there. Ultimately, it seems like a 3 mana do-nothing unless you're also running the full boat of Horizon Canopy...in which case it seems pretty great.

I will point out that green seems to add the most benefit in terms of the sideboard. Back to Nature is leagues better than Tempest of Light, and Creeping Corrosion seems good too.

Kayradis
10-08-2013, 12:22 PM
I ran the exact same list I ran last week at Modern Monday last night.

Forgot the cards I wanted to swap so I ran the list with no changes at all.

I still believe the list is fairly good.

Davran
10-14-2013, 10:43 AM
Another FNM report:

The list:
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Serra Avenger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Blade Splicer
1 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Restoration Angel

4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial

1 Ajani, Caller of the Pride

1 Horizon Canopy
1 Eiganjo Castle
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Tectonic Edge
13 Plains

Sideboard:
3 Burrenton Forge-tender
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Blind Obedience
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Rule of Law

A quick note: I decided to keep the MD the same as last week to give Ajani another shot at proving himself. The only change in the 75 was in the sideboard where I swapped a Ratchet Bomb for a Blind Obedience.

Round 1 vs. Jund

My first match vs. jund was bound to happen some time. I kept a somewhat decent 7 game 1, and we were off. Unfortunately, my opponent had a turn 3 Liliana and plenty of Terminates and Bolts for my attackers. I was able to keep him off of green mana and man-lands for a while, but he eventually got there. Sideboarding: Out Ajani, Caller of the Pride, 2x Serra Avenger, Fiend Hunter; In 2x Rest In Peace, 2x Ghostly Prison. I spent an eternity debating whether or not to bring Aven Mindcensor in, but I ultimately decided that I would rather keep the Revokers to shut off his planeswalkers. In hindsight, Mindcensor is probably a bit stronger than Ghostly Prison in the matchup...but I think you could make a case either way. I kept a mediocre 7 featuring Splicer, Revoker, Restoration Angel and some lands. My opponent doesn't do much the first couple turns, and has some removal for my golem. He hits a turn 4 Chandra, Pyromaster...which Revoker is pretty adept at answering. For some reason, he lets me untap with the Revoker and tries to Bolt it during combat. Unfortunately for him I have a Restoration Angel, and that misplay ends up costing him the game. Game 3 was the sort of game that makes me remember why I play this deck. My opponent spends his first three removal spells on Thalia, Arbiter, and Ghostly Prison. I slam a Rest in Peace, and he groans with a pair of 0/1 Goyfs in play. I get the LD plan going after that, keeping him off of double black as Liliana is really the only thing I'm mildly scared of at this point. He never draws another Abrupt Decay, and I win a few turns later.

1-0, 2-1 in games

Round 2 vs. Homebrew Pod

I was seated next to my round 2 opponent during round 1, and I had seen him cast pod so I figured he was on Melira. We both take a mull to 6 game 1, and I keep a reasonable hand with Thalia, Splicer, Finks, Vial and some lands. My opponent leads with Birds into Blade Splicer and I start to realize something's up. The following turn, he lays down his 4th basic and pod, and it occurs to me that this is probably not Melira as I haven't seen a black source and he is playing far too many basic lands. As it turns out, that intuition was correct. He spends his turns podding up the chain to a Sun Titan, which for some reason he is happy to throw away to a pair of golems. That attack ends up costing him the game as I'm able to comfortably crack back with fliers. Sideboarding: Out 2x Revoker, 1x Ajani, 2x Serra Avenger; In 2x Ghostly Prison, 2x Aven Mindcensor, 1x Ratchet Bomb. Game 2: I keep a reasonable 7 to my opponent's mull to 6 and lead with a Vial. He has a turn 1 Birds again, which he follows up with a turn 2 Beast Within on my Vial. I bash in with Thalia and the Beast, and he resolves a Pod. I smack him for 5 again, cast a Finks and ship the turn. He casts a Solemn Simulacrum and pods it into Thragtusk, and everything went downhill from there. Tusk turned into a Stingerfling Spider (yep, I had to read that one too), which turned into a Sun Titan for no value (he had nothing to return in his yard). Sun Titan turned into Elesh Norn, and I found a Path one turn too late. Game 3 went a whole lot like game 2. He pods a bunch of stuff while I can't find a single anti-search card. Elesh Norn came down again, and this time there was no Path in the cards for me.

As it turns out, basic lands are this deck's kryptonite. I was able to Tectonic Edge a single Temple Garden in all three games, and without the mana denial plan he could just pod forever.

1-1, 2-3 in games

Round 3 vs. Burn

I keep what I think is a reasonable 7. My opponent leads with Goblin Guide into a pair of suspended Rift Bolts. The bolts take out my Finks (which was fine by me), but he has a pair of Vexing Devils as a follow up. I take 4 for the first one, and let the second resolve in hopes of finding a Path or Blade Splicer. I find neither, and die to burn the following turn. Sideboarding: Out Ajani, 2x Revoker, 3x Arbiter; In 2x Ghostly Prison, 3x Burrenton Forge-tender, 1x Blind Obedience. I keep a hand of Path, Path, Finks, Finks, Ghostly Prison, Plains, Ghost Quarter...and never draw the third land. Meanwhile, I put my burn opponent ahead by two lands, which is more than enough for me to die painfully.

1-2, 2-5 in games

Round 4 vs. The Mirror

To say that the mirror is miserable is an understatement. We match plays card-for-card for the first three turns in game 1. I find a Fiend Hunter for his Thalia, and my opponent seems content to block the Fiend Hunter while taking 2 a turn from my Thalia. At this point, I decided that I was going to be the aggro player, so I just started racing him. He tries to get tricky with a Restoration Angel, but I have plenty of tricks of my own and win it a few turns later. Sideboarding: Out 3x Leonin Arbiter; In: 2x Ghostly Prison, 1x Blind Obedience. My opponent sideboards in like 7 cards after saying he doesn't really have anything for the mirror, so I'm pretty confused. We again match plays for a few turns until my opponent resolves a Sword of Fire and Ice. I have a Revoker, but not before he gets it equipped on a Restoration Angel. Sword picks off my team and keeps my opponent's hand full, so we're off to game 3. I again decided that I was going to be the aggressor here. My opponent runs out a Rest in Peace, and I'm happy to see that over some sort of threat. I eventually draw Ajani, which as it turns out is pretty good here. My opponent spends two Wisps keeping me from activating him, and finally makes a pretty questionable attack in an effort to take him out. I'm able to block profitably and still keep Ajani around. The following turn, my opponent attack again, opting to split his attack between me and Ajani. I let Ajani die, and the game suddenly swings in my favor. I draw a Ghostly Prison, and make a fairly aggressive attack. My opponent opts to chump with a bunch of guys, thinking he has me on the backswing. Then I drop Ghostly Prison. I draw another Ghostly Prison the following turn, and that's enough to seal it in my favor.

2-2, 4-6 in games.

Some notes:

I'm still unsure about Ajani. It was very helpful in the mirror as it allowed me to buff up a Restoration Angel to 5/7, which made it quite difficult for my opponent to block. That said, I still think that it's a little win more in a lot of match-ups. Maybe the proper place for him is the sideboard as a tool for the grindy decks and/or the mirror?

I'm also considering dropping the Ratchet Bomb from my sideboard for another Blind Obedience. I found myself wanting to draw it in all of the matches where I sided it in, so it's probably time to bump it up to 2x.

Fiend Hunter is on the bubble too - it's been ok on occasion, but more often than not it's just a lightning rod that "taps" a creature for a turn. I might try out Sunlance or Oust in its place this week.

Lastly, the deck my mirror match opponent had was quite different from the list I played above. Most notably, he was running Fiendslayer Paladin...which I think is worth at least a cursory look. Ultimately, I think it suffers the same problems that Mirran Crusader suffers in that it just dies to Pyroclasm. That said, it does dodge lightning bolt/lightning helix, which can't be said for the Crusader.

Phoenix Ignition
10-14-2013, 04:51 PM
I'm wondering if a Sword wouldn't be just straight up better than Ajani. It's hard to say, but something like SofI does help a large amount of our problems, assuming you get the mana for it.

I've also had troubles with Pod just going massive card advantage, I'm not sure there's a solution to it. That's always been the weakness of aggro/control decks kind of like this one, if the opponent has cards to just go bigger than you there isn't a lot you can do about it.

I'm not a fan of Fiendslayer, at least at first glance. It's just so small, it wouldn't be able to swing through almost any creatures that are actually being played right now, and we really don't have a way to buff him.

I think I'm also warming up to Student of Warfare, as he puts on some pressure and in top deck wars should be able to attack into anything. I'd have to test it a bit, but he does speed up the deck if we put him in place of Fiend Hunter.

Has anyone tried out Judge's Familiar yet? It's not terribly good at first glance, but does go with our strategy pretty well (and maybe if we had Swords in here would be a helpful flier).

Davran
10-14-2013, 07:23 PM
I'm wondering if a Sword wouldn't be just straight up better than Ajani. It's hard to say, but something like SofI does help a large amount of our problems, assuming you get the mana for it.

Hm. I initially dismissed the sword plan as too slow...but at the time I was trying to run Steelshaper's Gift as a pseudo-Stoneforge Mystic. Maybe just rocking a one-of SoFI is actually good? SoWP might be decent as well...pro red and white blanks a good portion of the removal in the format. The only problem with that is that the trigger isn't nearly as relevant.


I've also had troubles with Pod just going massive card advantage, I'm not sure there's a solution to it. That's always been the weakness of aggro/control decks kind of like this one, if the opponent has cards to just go bigger than you there isn't a lot you can do about it.

That's exactly what happened here...though to be fair I don't think I would make any snap changes or judgments based on the match I played since his deck was essentially a last-season standard brew. Regardless, I think we have two options:

1. Hate on the Pod itself. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how effective this would actually be since I've seen pod.deck just draw into the win through any amount of hate. I think Phyrexian Revoker is the all-star for this plan over something like Disenchant since it pulls double duty shutting off a pod or a sac outlet.

2. Try to prevent them from searching. Something I've not really explored vs. the deck is Grafdigger's Cage. It doesn't really help if they just draw into the win, but it does force them to find their 1-of Harmonic Sliver or whatever.


I'm not a fan of Fiendslayer, at least at first glance. It's just so small, it wouldn't be able to swing through almost any creatures that are actually being played right now, and we really don't have a way to buff him.

Me either...though it does seem like a not-so-terrible thing if you see a lot of mono-red I guess...


I think I'm also warming up to Student of Warfare, as he puts on some pressure and in top deck wars should be able to attack into anything. I'd have to test it a bit, but he does speed up the deck if we put him in place of Fiend Hunter.

What, as like a 1-of? The problem I have with Student is that you're either all in on it or it's just a 1/1. The worst is pumping some extra mana into it only to run into a Bolt or Terminate down the line. I think it's great if you have an active Vial...but otherwise it can be pretty awkward.


Has anyone tried out Judge's Familiar yet? It's not terribly good at first glance, but does go with our strategy pretty well (and maybe if we had Swords in here would be a helpful flier).

I played it for a while, and I would like it more if it were just straight up Mana Tithe: Feathered Edition. It's an on-board trick 99% of the time, and as such it's not really all that hard for your opponent to play around. Further, a 1/1 flyer isn't anything to write home about...if we're going to seriously consider those, Squadron Hawk or even Serra Ascendant might be better choices than a sometimes counter.

Maybe one of these days WotC will make a change to the ban list and give us Stoneforge Mystic back. Hell, they could even ban Batterskull in its place if that's what they're really afraid of. You can't possibly tell me that a 1/2 in the Lightning Bolt format is super powerful. With Batterskull gone, you're essentially getting a sword what...1 turn early at best? Hardly seems better than Deathrite Shaman in terms of power plays...

Kayradis
10-22-2013, 10:45 AM
Ran my list again yesterday.
Finished second.
Im stoked on the deck, so I bought all the cards for MTGO and probably gonna start playing events more often.

Davran
11-04-2013, 08:46 AM
Quick report from FNM last week:

Decklist:
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Serra Avenger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Blade Splicer
1 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Restoration Angel

4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
1 Ajani, Caller of the Pride

1 Horizon Canopy
1 Eiganjo Castle
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Tectonic Edge
13 Plains

Sideboard:
3 Burrenton Forge-tender
2 Blind Obedience
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Rule of Law

Round 1 vs. GW Hatebears

My opponent says something to the effect of "I'm going to need it" when I wish him luck, so I went into this match feeling pretty good. He leads with plains into Judge's Familiar and I immediately put him on the mirror. His creatures are all smaller than mine, and he doesn't seem to be playing anything by way of removal. My opponent makes a pretty questionable attack, and I'm able to blow him out with a Restoration Angel. He sticks a Torpor Orb here, turning off most of my creatures, but I'm able to beat down with a Serra Avenger and the Angel for the win. Sideboarding: Out 2 Phyrexian Revoker, 2 Leonin Arbiter; In 2 Ghostly Prison, 2 Blind Obedience. My opponent sticks an early Imposing Sovereign which is actually a pretty big pain in the ass as it messes with my Wisp/Resto tricks. A couple of turns later, he again makes a questionable attack and I'm able to block pretty profitably. I stick a Ghostly Prison the following turn, slowing him down enough to let me bash in with my flyers, winning a couple turns later.

1-0, 2-0 in games

Round 2 vs. Affinity

I know my opponent is on affinity and we share some friendly banter before the match about how terrible this match-up is for me. I proceed to draw running Flickerwisps and a Restoration Angel which keeps him from suiting up an Etched Champion with Plating for long enough for me to race him. Blade Splicer did a ton of work here too, providing a couple of golems to chump with exactly when I needed them. Sideboarding: Out 4 Leonin Arbiter, 1 Ajani, Caller of the Pride; In 2 Stony Silence, 2 Ghostly Prison, 1 Kataki, War's Wage. I keep a decent 7 featuring Path, Splicer, Vial, Thalia and some lands. My opponent sticks a turn 1 Torpor Orb...turning off nearly my entire hand. My first draw is Revoker, again invalidated by the Orb. His turn 2 features a Plating, and this is a very, very short game. No sideboard changes for Game 3. I keep my 7 to my opponent's 6, and we're off to the races. I lead with Vial and Path a turn 2 Steel Overseer. The following turn I resolve a Stony Silence, which buys me a little time to draw some outs to his 3x Signal Pest attack squad. Unfortunately, he has Wear//Tear and an Etched Champion. I don't have a Path for the 2nd Steel Overseer which puts the Champion out of golem range. I'm able to chump for a couple turns, but I end up drawing a land when I needed a Splicer/Wisp/Angel, and that's the end.

1-1, 3-2 in games

Round 3 vs. The Mirror Match

There's not really much to say here that I didn't say in my last report as this is the same opponent. My guys are generally bigger than his (he runs Mirran Crusader and Imposing Sovereign), and Finks is usually enough to win me the race. This holds true for game 1, so it's off to sideboarding. Sideboarding: Out 4 Leonin Arbiter, In 2 Ghostly Prison, 2 Blind Obedience. My opponent brings in Grand Abolisher, which as it turns out is actually pretty annoying. For some reason, he decides to throw it into an attack and I trade with it almost instantly (still not sure why he did that). I resolve Ajani, which is actually quite strong in the mirror. I give a Finks flying and double strike allowing me to crack in for 9 and really put the pressure on my opponent. He has a Path for one of my flyers the following turn, fizzling Ajani's +1/+1 counter...but it's not nearly enough.

2-1, 5-2 in games

Round 4 vs. RG Tron

My opponent takes a mull to 4 and leads with an Urza land into a bauble. Two turns later, he naturally has Tron active (some people have all the luck) and sticks a Wurmcoil. I have a Path and start clocking him for 6 a turn. He can't find any sort of threat and I get there a couple of turns later. Sideboarding: Out 2 Phyrexian Revoker, 1 Serra Avenger, 1 Ajani, Caller of the Pride. In 2 Stony Silence, 2 Aven Mindcensor. I keep a 7 with Tec Edge, Ghost Quarter, Stony Silence, Plains and some dudes. My opponent never really stood a chance as my first three draws were Tec Edge, Ghost Quarter, and Finks. The Stony Silence is a huge blowout (I found out after the match he didn't side in Nature's Claim because he assumed I didn't have any targets) and I'm able to keep him off of Tron and Red mana long enough to win.

3-1, 7-2 in games.

Overall, I'm quite happy with this list. Torpor Orb is a huge pain in the ass though, so I might try to reconfigure the sideboard a little to find room for some Disenchants or something.

ScatmanX
11-04-2013, 06:03 PM
Round 4 vs. RG Tron
Sideboarding: Out 2 Phyrexian Revoker, 1 Serra Avenger, 1 Ajani, Caller of the Pride. In 2 Stony Silence, 2 Aven Mindcensor.
Thanks for the report.
Against RG Tron isn't worth SBing in Burreton Forge Tender? They usually play 4 Pyroclasm that get lots of uor creatures.

Phoenix Ignition
11-04-2013, 06:14 PM
Thanks for the report.
Against RG Tron isn't worth SBing in Burreton Forge Tender? They usually play 4 Pyroclasm that get lots of uor creatures.

I agree with this, also I would probably leave in phyrexian revoker because hitting their turn 3 Karn play is pretty good. I would probably take out Resto angels (not enough power:mana), and probably even Vials as having cards that do nothing including race them and die to your own Stony Silence seems bad.

Lord Seth
11-04-2013, 11:18 PM
As a Tron player, I can say that Pyroclasm is perhaps the best weapon the deck has against Death & Taxes. Burrenton Forge-Tender is absolutely worth bringing in just for that card.

kombatkiwi
11-05-2013, 04:57 AM
My first draw is Revoker, again invalidated by the Orb.

Revoker doesn't interact with torpor orb at all, it doesn't have a triggered ability

Davran
11-05-2013, 08:57 AM
Thanks for the report.
Against RG Tron isn't worth SBing in Burreton Forge Tender? They usually play 4 Pyroclasm that get lots of uor creatures.


I agree with this, also I would probably leave in phyrexian revoker because hitting their turn 3 Karn play is pretty good. I would probably take out Resto angels (not enough power:mana), and probably even Vials as having cards that do nothing including race them and die to your own Stony Silence seems bad.


As a Tron player, I can say that Pyroclasm is perhaps the best weapon the deck has against Death & Taxes. Burrenton Forge-Tender is absolutely worth bringing in just for that card.

Thanks for the advice, everyone. I've actually not played vs. Tron before, so I was a little lost for sideboarding. I definitely agree that I should have left Revoker in...it was late and I wasn't thinking all that clearly. Taking out the Vials is a great suggestion too - it's not something I normally think to do.

As for why I didn't bring Forge-tender in, I was banking on just playing around the Pyroclasm by not over-extending into it and/or keeping him off of red mana. On top of that, I've sort of built the deck to dodge Pyroclasm as much as possible. That said, Forge-tender does seem like a pretty big blowout, so I'll bring them in for future games.


Revoker doesn't interact with torpor orb at all, it doesn't have a triggered ability

Phyrexian Revoker (for reference). Well that was a pretty huge punt on my part. I wish I could say my Revokers are foreign or something...but I just fail at reading english. To be perfectly honest, the game was pretty well over with or without the Revoker in play. Three mana for a 1/1 Blade Splicer that can't even chump is never going to get there vs. affinity.

thedogue
10-13-2015, 07:38 PM
Ok guys here's a list that's been doing really well for me lately. It's a black white splash just for that sculler.

List:
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Stonecloaker
4 Thalia, Guardian Of Thraben
4 Restoration Angel
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Flickerwisp
2 Archangel Of Tithes

4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile

1x Eiganjo Castle
4x Ghost Quarter
2x Godless Shrine
1x Isolated Chapel
4x Marsh Flats
5x Plains
1x Swamp
3x Tectonic Edge
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

Sideboard:
1x Athreos, God of Passage
1x Crucible of Worlds
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Kor Firewalker
3x Magus of the Moat
3x Rest in Peace
3x Kataki, War's Wage


I think Stonecloaker is getting much stronger in the modern shell. It's got game vs. Snapcaster, Kolaghan's Command, Eternal Witness, Lingering Souls, the new ever so popular Jace and more...
The various amount of tricks you can do arming yourself with Resto, Flickerwisp, and Stonecloaker is fantastic. All great too with Tidehollow Sculler. Always getting that 2 for 1.
It's great running these creatures that can flash regardless if your vial is up. Having 3 mana open usually meant the opponent knew you were sandbagging a Mindcensor... now he's got to think about 2 cards with 3 untapped.

I've been playtesting it a lot with friends and it's been holding up vs the top decks in the meta (modern nexus as source). It's primary weakness is Elves (of course...) and you just have to hope magus can stay down.

Give it a try guys. It's just balls to the wall flicker and scoops, making you show the rules on how tidehollow is 2 for 1'n them every time and exile one of those cards.
You beat them down in the air of course to win.

Would love some feedback, and sideboard advice -- I'm not sure how much I like:
Athreos, God of Passage or Crucible of Worlds. Sidenote: Believe it or not, Brimaz, King of Oreskos just doesn't cut it anymore in this format in my opinion. Everything either is way under him and not attacking -- rather doing some other trick, and everything else you see as a beater is over his head. I like Ethersworn Canonist but it would be my 2nd cut if people have better thoughts. Lastly, Kataki, War's Wage could always be Stony Silence if that's your way of handling Affinity instead. Would love other ideas.

CaptainTwiddle
10-13-2015, 08:42 PM
@thedogue - I like the list. My only real criticism is the inclusion of Urborg. I don't see what it's there for. You don't need double black and allowing your Ghost Quarters and Tec Edges to tap for black doesn't really add anything, since Urborg could just be any other black producing land in that scenario and you'd be in the same shape. I guess it allows for playing Tidehollow Sculler, bouncing it in response to its trigger, and replaying it in the same turn. I suppose if it doesn't hinder your ability to get white mana, it's more or less harmless. Fixing your opponent's mana probably isn't too relevant, as the mana in Modern is so good. That said, DNT does play a mana denial game and occasionally you won't want to give your opponent access to black.

Stonecloaker is a card I forgot about, which surprises me, because I've been a huge fan of it historically. It definitely adds some unique elements to the deck.

I'm not really a fan of Aven Mindcensor, since you already have Leonin Arbiter and there is a lot of competition at the 2W slot. I've been really impressed with Vryn Wingmare and have been running 4 of those along with 3 Thalia in my build (which is mono white).

thedogue
10-13-2015, 11:45 PM
@thedogue - I like the list. My only real criticism is the inclusion of Urborg. I don't see what it's there for. You don't need double black and allowing your Ghost Quarters and Tec Edges to tap for black doesn't really add anything, since Urborg could just be any other black producing land in that scenario and you'd be in the same shape. I guess it allows for playing Tidehollow Sculler, bouncing it in response to its trigger, and replaying it in the same turn. I suppose if it doesn't hinder your ability to get white mana, it's more or less harmless. Fixing your opponent's mana probably isn't too relevant, as the mana in Modern is so good. That said, DNT does play a mana denial game and occasionally you won't want to give your opponent access to black.

Stonecloaker is a card I forgot about, which surprises me, because I've been a huge fan of it historically. It definitely adds some unique elements to the deck.

I'm not really a fan of Aven Mindcensor, since you already have Leonin Arbiter and there is a lot of competition at the 2W slot. I've been really impressed with Vryn Wingmare and have been running 4 of those along with 3 Thalia in my build (which is mono white).

Thanks!

Urborg is just there b/c it would just be a swamp or maybe a 3rd godless shrine - something to that extent. It also is the remnants of the deck playing a bit more black -- I had Sin Collector in there, and at one point I pondered even Wasteland Strangler. It just hasn't hurt the base, but if people find it in their hand burning up one too many times, it would be better as a 3rd shrine... or something else. I do acknowledge that. Sometimes -- it does help me (and opponent though) if Leonin Arbiter is out I can use those fetches.

I ...LOVE.. Aven Mindcensor. For many reasons:
- It's got flash. Makes the opponent think twice about your 3 untapped land given you can cast either Stonecloaker OR Mindcensor
- It's 3 cmc, so your vial on 3 is super valuable and also makes your opponent contemplate if you've got flicker, mindcensor, or stonecloaker
- It's stops the opponent from fetching (except top 4). Who doesn't run fetch lands? It doesn't hurt you. It's good vs combo. There's a lot of tutoring. If you don't have Leonin Arbiter out, it provides a 2nd card to compliment the land destruction suite. I wouldn't run a deck with only a 4 of to back that strategy. If the opponent has mana, they can move through Arbiter. Plus, the opponent is packing removal or some control in that arbiter isn't going to live that long if the opponent can help it.
- It's a flyer. Sure, it's a weak beater, but in a pinch it's great.

I tried Vryn Wingmare. For a long while. It was hard when I want my 3 mana up for flash creatures or backup (or bluff). Thalia is super tempo, on T2 she's queen. Personally in your list I'd run 4 of her. She's gonna get killed, that's the thing. 4 of her is not overkill, she's best drawn up easily and thrown down T2. For me, Pegasus would get played... then removed. I do want to make it harder for my opponent to cast spells, but there's no mother of runes, no quick sword equips, no easy protection. So Thalia is more a tempo play and then I want to move into flyers that are going to mess with my opponent b/c she's not sticking around too much. It feel like in this meta getting land up and out quick isn't the hardest, so pegasus I felt was too slow. He's weak too. I don't doubt he works in builds, but in the 3 cmc spot, I can't afford to shed Flickerwisp, Stonecloaker, or Aven Mindcensor which I feel are doing more effective things, especially in the current meta.

I'd be interested in seeing your build. I splash the black b/c when I tried mono-white (I'm a Legacy Death and Taxes player, so I want modern mono white DNT to be a thing) but 4 paths just isn't enough. Mangara doesn't cut it without Karakas. I think sculler gives you that extra something -- hand disruption on a body. The fact you can also flicker, resto, or stonecloaker it when its cast to get at minimum, a 2 for 1 (while exiling a card) makes it a really useful piece DnT needs to come over top.

CaptainTwiddle
10-15-2015, 11:41 AM
Urborg...it does help me (and opponent though) if Leonin Arbiter is out I can use those fetches.

I did overlook the fact that Urborg allows you to at least get some value out of your own fetches if your own Arbiter is constraining you. The symmetry there is a little awkward though. Allowing your opponent to tap to fetches so they can activate a 3rd isn't great, but maybe you're so far ahead at that point it doesn't matter.


I ...LOVE.. Aven Mindcensor. For many reasons:...

Don't get me wrong, I love Mindcensor too. I just think there is a lot of competition at the 3 slot. I do actually run 1 Mindcensor in my build. I don't go up to 4cmc for anything (no Resto Angel or Archangel of Tithes). I really think DNT is a deck that has a core of cards, but the numbers on those cards can really be tweaked to adjust for an expected meta.


I'd be interested in seeing your build.

Here you go; it's nothing too fancy. I'm not including the sideboard b/c it's horribly outdated.

Death and Taxes
CREATURES
1 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
1 Aven Mindcensor
3 Blade Splicer - Splicer is a bit underwhelming, yet really good. It's better with more flicker effects. Perhaps I'll swap one for +1 Mindcensor.
4 Dryad Militant - Dryad is kind of boring, but when its ability is relevant, it's very good. I can't really thing of another 1 drop worth playing (maybe a x1 Kytheon, Hero of Akros)
3 Flickerwisp
2 Kitchen Finks
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Serra Avenger
1 Spellskite
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Vryn Wingmare
SPELLS
4 Æther Vial
4 Path to Exile
LAND
11 Plains
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Flagstone of Trokair
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Mutavault
3 Tectonic Edge

Fry
11-05-2015, 05:57 PM
It's been a long @ss time since I posted in here, but someone on Facebook was going on and on about how I don't do D&T in Modern so I went to showed him my first list... Without further ado, here's what I intend on playing at GP Pittsburgh.

Main:
3x Aven Mindcensor
2x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4x Flickerwisp
1x Grand Abolisher
1x Jotun Grunt
4x Leonin Arbiter
4x Mana Tithe
2x Mirran Crusader
4x Path to Exile
4x Serra Avenger
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x AEther Vial
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Eiganjo Castle
4x Ghost Quarter
3x Horizon Canopy
3x Tectonic Edge
11x Plains
Side:
2x Burrenton Forge-Tender
2x Celestial Purge
1x Grand Abolisher
1x Jotun Grunt
1x Kor Firewalker
2x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Spellskite

I am most definitely more than willing to explain and defend my choices in a civil discussion.

Barook
12-13-2015, 07:11 AM
This Wb list won the Modern Mayhem event last week on MTGO, dropping only a single match early (against a later Top 4 player) due to better draws from the UR Twin deck. I think the list looks pretty good.

1 Caves of Koilos
1 Fetid Heath
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
2 Plains
2 Shambling Vent
1 Swamp
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Vault of the Archangel

2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Dark Confidant
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Flickerwisp
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Restoration Angel
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence

3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial

Sideboard:
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Dismember
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Rest in Peace
2 Spellskite
3 Stony Silence
1 Zealous Persecution

kryllex
12-17-2015, 06:35 AM
4x Leonin Arbiter
4x Blade Splicer
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Vryn Wingmare
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2x Aven Mindcensor
4x Flickerwisp
3x Restoration Angel
4x Dryad Militant
4x Path to Exile
4x Aether Vial

4x Ghost Quarter
3x Tectonic Edge
2x Mutavault
1x Eiganjo Castle
12x Plains


2x Dismember
1x Celestial Purge
3x Kor Firewalker
1x Kataki, War's Wage
2x Stony Silence
2x Rest in Peace
2x Mirran Crusader
2x Sundering Growth


This is my list as I play it at the moment, going completely mono-white. Mana Denial is by far the strongest strategy of the deck, making the small guys good. I had a Mangara of Corondor in the Slot for Brimaz, but he seemed way too slow. Im thinking of adding a Dismember to the Maindeck, really big dudes aka the Fish, Tasigur and a Huge Goyf are annoying this deck really hard. Really fun to play!

thedogue
01-06-2016, 09:30 PM
Ok guys..

I had a list awhile back that was doing pretty good... well decent.

Had help from some very skilled friends and it's going really strong. 60% vs Grixis Control strong.

I'm throwing in some spoiled cards from Oath of the Gatewatch I've been playtesting.

Holy mama...


http://mythicspoiler.com/ogw/cards/seagatewreckage.jpghttp://mythicspoiler.com/ogw/cards/eldrazidisplacer.jpg


The biggest changes made to my last list:
Adding Siege Rhino
Adding Kitchen Finks

Yes, you can get 4 land colors down and play Death and Taxes. I know, right?

List:
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Siege Rhino
3 Stonecloaker
4 Thalia, Guardian Of Thraben
4 Restoration Angel
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Flickerwisp
3 Eldrazi Displacer

4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile

2x Sea Gate Wreckage
4x Ghost Quarter
2x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
3x Windswept Heath
2x Plains
2x Temple Garden
1x Horizon Canopy
3x Tectonic Edge

Sideboard:
2x Aven Mindcensor
2x Pithing Needle
2x Kor Firewalker
3x Tidehollow Sculler
3x Rest in Peace
3x Kataki, War's Wage


Pros:
- Kitchen Finks is just a pain in the ass to sit out there. Flicking him just makes it worse.
- It's all about flickering that Siege Rhino
- You can counter Snapcaster Mage, an effect off Kolaghan's Command, AND Jace, Vryn's Prodigy trigger with Stonecloaker. Definitely a 4 of in some builds.
- The "Taxation" of land and casting is more of an early tempo. The opponent is always going to get rid of Thalia, Guardian Of Thraben and sometimes Leonin Arbiter if they need to. You also kinda need to keep your lands around. Especially when you didn't get an early vial. The strategy only takes off if you're facing combo or you just drew the nuts. Be REALISTIC and get ready for the late game.
- Sea Gate Wreckage. Sea Gate Wreckage. Sea Gate Wreckage. Sea Gate Wreckage. Sea Gate Wreckage. Sea Gate Wreckage. Will be a modern staple. White LOVES this card. This card put me over the top against the control deck matchups I had a worse % without it vs control and midrange. Give it your love. Make this a 2 of.
- This deck does great vs. Combo and Control
- Believe it or not, land is never an issue for this deck. You'll draw your fetches. Quit looking scared...

...Okay fine. That leads me to...

Cons:
- Bloodmoon wrecks this deck. If you face it, you need to be fetching into those plains and go head first. You'll be okay. Rhino is the only thing that turns off... and all your taxation methods. Debating Qasali Pridemage depending on how the rest of the Oaths spoil.
- Hand Disruption is a bitch vs this deck. Make sure you don't keep a 4+ land hand ever. I don't care if it's 4 land and vial. Don't.
- Planeswalkers also wreak havoc on the deck. I had to put Pithing Needle in the board b/c they were such a weakness. Now I know they aren't rampant - and the deck actually does well vs. Jace --- BUT --- more Planeswalkers are showing up in the meta and we need to handle that. Phyrexian Revoker isn't good enough in this format. Too fragile.
- Sometimes token decks can become a little overwhelming. Unless you get your Rhinos out on time and bounce them. I have debated a nice 1 of Wrath of God in the board.
- You die to Elves. You can board Magus of the Moat and swing up top but he's not in this list. Otherwise best bets might be adding the Scullers and Mindcensors in that matchup.

Haven't gotten enough out of the Eldrazi Displacer yet to tell how good or not he is. I mean he's a no brainer to test b/c he has a flicker effect in a deck with many tricks. Lately I've been finding Aven Mindcensor less powerful in the meta unless it's vs combo. That and I'm sorting whoring out the blinking aspect. It's what I took out for Displacer. He does die to bolt... but if they wanna bolt him every other creature in your deck is a nuisance so go right ahead. You have enough <> Wastes to never worry about this trigger or Sea Gate Wreckage's. Did I talk about that card yet?
Then again, Vryn Wingmare were supposed to be an awesome compliment but that didn't work out... Displacer needs more testing.

P.S.

I hope they un-ban SFM so I can scrap this list and go balls to the wall mono-white death and taxes.

LMental
01-07-2016, 05:25 AM
Thoughts on including Warping Wail MD or SB?

Barook
01-07-2016, 01:50 PM
Isn't 7 fetches + Leonin Arbiter kind of a nonbo, especially when your plan is to ramp into Siege Rhino?

thedogue
01-08-2016, 10:47 AM
Isn't 7 fetches + Leonin Arbiter kind of a nonbo, especially when your plan is to ramp into Siege Rhino?

You'd think that - but nah, it works. I understand your concern too. You can playtest it yourself and you'll see.

I always use any fetchlands I have prior to dropping Arbiter (often cracking 2 of my 7 before the 1st arbiter), and even when he's out there - if he doesn't start doing taxation work right away he'll get removed b/c he's too pesky (assuming he's a T2 drop, T3 if Thalia T2). He's going to hold your opponent back a few turns max usually only if you drop him T1 and he survives until the next turn and you start drawing ghost quarters vs a deck that needs it's land base.

There's also 4 dual lands that you can also just draw. If Arbiter is hurting you more than your opponent, you can always use him to chump block, or swing until he's actually a threat to remove. Or just swing into a losing combat. Arbiter is more for preventing the opponent from early turn fetches, getting land off path to exile, and whatever tutors their deck may be using. Until the right cards are printed or un-banned, sadly mono white isn't ready to be T1 (or even T1.5) as a death and taxes deck (or whatever bastardization hybrids people make from it... like this version).

I haven't had a problem with him hurting my own land / keep in mind he's more early tempo. You'd need to draw 3 fetchlands in an opening hand for it to become an actual setback. It's rare Arbiter is out, alive, and kicking on turn 4 when you could be casting rhino. If arbiter is somehow still out, you shouldn't care because you're probably destroying the opponent's mana base and maybe Thalia is out.

Don't forget Aether Vial softens any land needs. I often get vial to 4 too b/c Resto is on the 4 spot as well (I try to stay on 3, but if the mana looks bad I'll go up to 4)

thedogue
01-08-2016, 11:02 AM
Thoughts on including Warping Wail MD or SB?

I'm not a huge fan of the eldrazi charm, but it could be okay in a sideboard build.

It does get rid of a lot of annoying threats in modern, and it counter's board wipe (which hurts this deck), last effect does nothing really.

I try to stay away from most SPELLS b/c of dis-synergy with Thalia UNLESS the spell is just BONKERS. All my 8 spells are 1 drops.

tarmogoat
07-04-2016, 01:49 AM
Not sure if anyone is still around here... But I figured I might as well try and necro this one.

I've been playing Wb Taxes to somewhat encouraging results. It's similar to a monowhite Tax deck, splashing B for Shambling Vent, Dark Confidant and Tidehollow Sculler.

Mainboard:
1CMC:
4x Path to Exile
4x Æther Vial


2CMC:
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Dark Confidant
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Leonin Arbiter
2x Serra Avenger

3CMC:
4x Flickerwisp
2x Eldrazi Displacer
2x Aven Mindcensor
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1x Sword of Fire and Ice


Lands:
4x Plains
1x Swamp
2x Sea Gate Wreckage
1x Vault of the Archangel
1x Tectonic Edge
4x Ghost Quarter
4x Caves of Koilos
3x Godless Shrine
2x Shambling Vent

Sideboard:
2x Burrenton Forge-Tender
2x Sunlance
2x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
1x Disenchant
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Zealous Persecution
1x Vryn Wingmare
2x Mirran Crusader


I have drawn up to 10 cards off Sea Gate Wreckages in a single game against UWR Nahiri, outclassing removals and getting something done out of lands and vials in the late-empty-handed-game, especially when your opponent casts 7 paths to exile on your dudes and you get a ton of mana to dump onto drawing more cards. It is definitely the MVP against control.

The CA of the deck feels real, both virtual in tempo plays (Thalia, Arbiter, Sculler and Flickerwisp) and raw by Confidant and Wreckage.

Going forward I'd make this changes:

Maindeck: -2 Eldrazi Displacer +2 Blade Splicer. Displacer can be awesome, but most times it competes with board development and feels too slow.

Sideboard: I'd like to add +1 Vryn Wingmare and +1 Blade Splicer/Zealous Persecution/Rest in Peace. But I'm not too sure what 2 I'd be cutting and what the 2nd card would be out of those 3.

Post EDM new Thalia will be on board, likely as a 2 or 3 of. That might result in the end of Kitchen Finks in the Mainboard, or wiping black completely and going full on Splicers, alongside Thalias and Wingmares. Not too sure though, I'm liking black a lot.

tarmogoat
07-11-2016, 07:16 PM
In case someone cares, I played the deck at local WMCQ this weekened (90 players). I went 6-0-1 into top seed.
2-1 Jeskai Nahiri
2-0 Jund
2-0 UW Control
2-1 BTL Scapeshift
2-1 UG Infect
2-1 Jund
ID Melira CoCo
Lost in top8 to Jund Dregde, which ended up winning the event. Had I known dredge was IDing into last placings I would have conceded last round to play against Jund/Grixis.

Played BW Taxes (no eldrazi). Deck does what it is meant to do and I loved how it played out. I should have mulliganed aggressively into Grafdigfer's or RiP in top8 but I punted and I didn't. Best player out of the top8 pool got the invite in the end, so still a happy ending.

Really happy of how the deck performed and how it surfed through the matches just like I expected. Made a couple of minor mistakes that didn't cost too much during swiss (like not droping a GQ before vialing an Arbiter, although the game was pretty much done, and missing a EoT return trigger on SoFaI from wisp, which didn't have effect as I flickered it during my turn anyway), and made some major mistakes in the Dredge match. Those mistakes didn't prove to be game losing, as the deck is so much faster than ours and the CA it produces can be so nasty. Mistakes made against dredge were:
1- I didn't scout the deck and didn't know if it was the Jund or Grixis version.
2- As he deployed a basic mountain on T1 I ghost quartered it -as I figured I was going to lose G1 anyway to the deck's speed and uncontested (by me) consistence- thinking that if he was on the grixis variant they only run 1 basic mountain. He was not. Hello Bloodghast.
3- Game 2 I didn't mulligan aggressively into Cage or RiP.
4- Game 2 I had a Leonin arbiter and a Ghost Quarter in play alongside a Vial on 1.EoT he throws a Lightning Axe to my bear and I was holding a Forge-Tender in hand and didn't save it. It was arguably a minor mistake, as they didn't come to prevent damage from axe but from Conflagrate and Mana denial on a deck that runs a land with dredge ability and Life from the Loam is not the smartest plan anyway. But it got me, and I was very pissed at myself for not taking mulligans like I knew I had to.

Anyway, I could have mulliganed into oblivion, or ended up not winning the MU anyway (although unlikely) and, to be fair, he deserves the invite more than me so can't complain.

Gotta work it up for September now.


The list was:

4x Æther Vial
4x Path to Exile

4x Leonin Arbiter
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tidehollow Sculler
2x Serra Avenger

4x Flickerwisp
2x Aven Mindcensor
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Vryn Wingmare
1x Mirran Crusader
1x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

2x Shambing Vent
3x Godless Shrine
4x Cave of Koilos
3x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Eiganjo Castle
4x Ghost Quarter
1x Tectonic Edge
2x Sea Gate Wreckage
1x Vault of the Archangel

Sideboard:
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Sunlance
2x Burrenton Forge-Tender
2x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
1x Disenchant
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Mirran Crusader