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Water_Wizard
12-15-2012, 06:06 AM
http://www.steveargyle.com/admin/uploads/piezas/Steve_Argyle_Deathrite_Shamantest-featured.jpg

In the words of Ricky Sidher, from SCG Las Vegas, Deathrite Shaman is "like a one-mana planeswalker in Legacy."

This deck was put on the map after it won a 70 player tournament in Berlin on 08DEC12:
Deathrite by Jasper Grimmer

Lands (19)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra

Creatures (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Geist of Saint Traft

Spells (26)
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
2 Vapor Snag
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder

Sideboard (15)
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Envelop
2 Thoughtseize
3 Lingering Souls

https://www.magiccardmarket.eu/blog/coverage/

Here is a version of Team Portugal:



Regarding the 4 color I once played and tested my own version of team portugal with white included - with new cards added it would look like this:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Brainstorm
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the Loam
4 Ponder
1 Rushing River
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sylvan Library
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

- Not counter heavy, but with a lot of nice toolboxes. I recall using snapcaster, unearth which was quite fun. Also I am getting into the Runechanter's Pike. Equip that to delver and you have a beast! What are you people's thoughts on # of equipment vs. # of SFM? I usually go with 1 less equipment than I have SFMs.
For even more toolbox you could include Ooze but I dont like them together with SHaman for obvious reasons..
The loam is there to help the mana base. I dont think it is that much of a problem, especially with 8 cantrips and Shamans, but it is always nice to have that card. Also feeds the Goyf/Shaman if need be.
EDIT: Rushing Rivers + loam is just sex!

Here are recent tournament report and analysis from Mark Sun regarding Jasper's list:



Vapor Snag: I used Water_Wizard's analysis on Vapor Snag to justify it, but I don't feel like it's where the deck wants to be. I found myself leaning more on discard + the full set of STP's postboard against the decks where Vapor Snag is reasonable to leave in. I pretty much boarded it out every time. While true that you want blue cards to pitch to Force of Will, in most of the decks where you want to be using Vapor Snag, you probably don't want Force of Will (with the exception of decks that cheap a fatty into play).

Geist: Same as it was last Standard season in UW Delver. Super weak against a horde of creatures, which makes it hard to push through damage. That said, casting him on turn 2 (which I did a couple of times) was pretty insane. This card might need more time to figure out and understand his role in the deck.

Lingering Souls: Bonkers. I wanted it against BUG. I wanted it against Bant. I brought it in for a pile of matchups. In conjunction with Jitte in the sideboard, that 4-card package seemed very reasonable, giving you a constant stream of guys to take advantage of equipment.

Delver: Most of you know how I feel about this card. Still not a fan with more Decays running around, but fits into the shell of the deck.

This is what I'll be using next week:

Lands (19)
10 Blue Fetches
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

Creatures (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Geist of Saint Traft

Spells (26)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder

Sideboard (15)
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
3 Lingering Souls
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Envelop
3 Flex Slots

I cut the two Vapor Snags to round out the playset of Daze and to add the 2nd Swords to Plowshares in the maindeck. For the sideboard, I never really found myself boarding in the extra Thoughtseize. They are probably fine against Control but you also want to put pressure on it you can. So -2 Thoughtseize, -1 Swords to Plowshares, +3 Flex Slots. They might become Engineered Plagues, or I was also thinking about cutting the Cavern and the EE for 4 Stoneforge Mystic and a Batterskull. Dunno, tons of time to tweak and test. Has anyone else been playing this deck?

DECK ANALYSIS

Mana Base
This deck runs a fetch-heavy, all non-basic, blue-based mana base. The typical version runs 19 lands comprised of 10 fetches and 3 Underground Seas, 3 Tropical Islands, and 3 Tundras.
Fetchlands are essential for activating Deathrite's first ability and for color fixing.
Some versions of this deck include other lands, such as Wasteland, Karakas, Savannah, Scrubland, and Bayou. Wasteland and Karakas are mainly run by the builds utilizing Knight of the Reliquary as a win condition. Savannah, Scrubland, and Bayou provide protection from Wasteland because you can create a 'triangle' and prevent yourself from being denied any color. For example, Underground Sea, Tropical Island, and Bayou, even in the face of a Wasteland, will still allow you to cast Abrupt Decay.

The 'Base'
The 'base' of this deck consists of the following:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3-4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
1-3 Swords to Plowshares
0-2 Vapor Snag
1 Sylvan Library

As this is a newer deck, versions are still being tweaked to include the 'optimal' composition. 19 lands plus 35-37 'base' cards grant room for 4-6 flex slots. First, let's discuss the 'base' creature slots and then let's discuss the 'flex slots,' including how they've been used by different players.

CREATURES

Deathrite Shaman
Deathrite Shaman is a mana accelerator, game extender, game ender, Goblin Lackey blocker, and graveyard disrupter all rolled into one.

A few quick notes about the 'rules' of Deathrite:
"Because the first ability requires a target, it is not a mana ability. It uses the stack and can be responded to.
If the target of any of Deathrite Shaman’s three abilities is an illegal target when that ability tries to resolve, it will be countered and none of its effects will happen. You won’t add mana to your mana pool, no opponent will lose life, or you won’t gain life, as appropriate."

So, Deathrite's first ability can be responded to and stopped with Pithing Needle. All of Deathrite's abilities can be 'stopped' by graveyard extraction effects such as opposing Deathrites, Scavenging Oozes, Surgical Extractions, and Extirpates.

Delver of Secrets
Borrowed, perhaps from the BUG Tempo archtype, this card is a Lightning Bolt on a stick!
Anyone who has played with, or against, Delver of Secrets knows its ability to close out games through quickly providing evasive pressure.
The one downside of Delver is that it does require approximately 25+ instants and/or sorceries in your deck to provide the suitable chances of a blind flip.

Tarmogoyf
A long-time Legacy staple, Tarmogoyf provides blocking and offense for a very reasonable mana cost.
The negative interaction between Deathrite and Tarmogoyf is not as bad as you would think. Deathrite can target your opponent's graveyard and between both graveyards, you are usually able to keep Tarmogoyf big and healthy. However, the combination of Deathrite and Tarmogoyf does leave this deck more susceptible to graveyard hate, like Rest in Peace.

The remaining 'flex' slots are usually dedicated to creatures, equipment, and/or planeswalker. Let's start with creature options:

Geist of Saint Traft
This was Japer Grimmer's creature of choice. Geist can quickly deal damage, is a good fit with the deck's mana base, and pitches to Force of Will. Hexproof also allows Geist to evade any form of targeted removal.
Geist shines in the mirror/tempo match ups. Given this deck's ability to provide mana acceleration, quickly land threats, and provide disruption, a turn 2 or 3 Geist can quickly close out the game.
Geist gains significant value on the play, so much so that I usually board some number out when I am on the draw (and I bring Force of Will back in.) Geist shines when you are able to keep your opponent off-balance. Landing an early Geist and then using discard, removal, and counterspells to answer your opponent's 'solutions' will quickly win you the game. However, when you are back-peddling and looking for answers to your opponent's threats, Geist is the last card that you want to see (it becomes an over-priced chump blocker.)
Geist is lacking in the aggro, combo, and certain control match-ups. Against aggro, Geist is usually boarded out, as decks like Goblins have many blockers. Versus quick combo, Geist is too slow and will be boarded out for extra disruption, like counterspells and discard. Vs. Control, Geist can be good, as it evades targeted discard, but it is susceptible to cards like Terminus, Snapcaster Mage, Entreat the Angels, Moat, and Maze of Ith.

Stoneforge Mystic
In my opinion, this may be the most powerful use of the flex slot. Running 3 Stoneforges provides a threat that is a two-drop and allows the deck to run main deck Batterskull and Jitte. Running main deck Jitte frees up a sideboard slot, perhaps for a card like Sword of Feast and Famine. Equipment, such as Jitte, pair well with the deck's existing creatures and also complement Lingering Souls tokens (from the sideboard) very well. Batterskull provides a unique threat and life gain, improving the aggro and burn match-ups and offering a re-castable threat.

Knight of the Reliquary
Despite the obvious dis-synergy with Deathrite Shaman and the continued reliance upon the graveyard, Knight of the Reliquary grants access to silver-bullet lands and Wasteland. Running KotR requires a more robust mana base (20-22 lands), including more Plains and Forests, but also grants access to Wasteland, Karakas, and increased mana-fixing. Decks that run KotR are also better able to support main-deck planeswalkers, due to their higher land counts.

Planeswalkers
Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Liliana of the Veil are the two major contenders, with Jace obviously being the strongest choice. Jace has stronger abilities and this deck's mana base supports Jace's UU casting cost much beter than Liliana's BB casting cost. In versions running 19 lands, Jace is a sideboard card, to be brought in against any deck of equal or slower speed. In versions that run 20+ lands, Jace is main-deck material, however, this begins to move away from the Tempo archtype and closer to mid-range or control.
Liliana is a possibility out of the sideboard, but this deck doesn't really want to run BB. If the deck choses to run Life from the Loam (and possibly Wasteland), I could see Liliana being a lock-piece in certain match-ups.

SPELLS

Brainstorm
Don't need to say too much here. Very good card. The fetchlands provide many shuffle effects. You get even more shuffle effects if you run Stoneforge Mystics. Brainstorm helps you find answers, set up Delver flips, and shuffle away unneeded cards. Enough said.

Ponder
Another great card for finding needed lands, disruption, and/or setting up Delver flips. Because this is a tempo deck, I would not run less than 4.

Force of Will
For the combo match-ups or to protect your threats. This card is included to give you a fighting chance vs. combo game 1. It usually comes out vs. 'fair' decks, although it's not uncommon to leave a couple in, especially on the draw. Jasper's list runs 25 blue cards, which is more than enough to support Force of Will.

Daze
Jasper's list runs 3, Mark has bumped it up to 4 (above). In the early game, especially on the play, Daze is awesome. It protects our early threats while providing enough disruption to close out the game. However, in the later game, Daze can be lacking, especially because this deck lacks Wasteland, Stifle, Hymn to Tourach and other such effects that would keep our opponent's tight on mana and thus, keep Daze effective. However, this deck does need another counterspell, in addition to Force of Will. Spell Pierce is a possible alternative, although Spell Pierce does not help you protect a first turn Deathrite or Delver. Because all of our lands are Islands (besides the Cavern of Souls in the board), Daze fits well with this deck's mana base.

Vapor Snag
At first glance, a lot of people, including myself, were like 'WTF?' However, after some testing, Vapor Snag has proven it's worth. Mark Sun disagrees, and has replaced his Vapor Snags with Swords to Plowshares, opening up a slot in the sideboard (you can read Mark's comments above.) In my testing with this deck, I've found that the first land I fectch is Underground Sea. It enables me to cast Deathrite and it opens up early-game discard. Second, I grab Tropical Islands to empower my Tarmogoyfs, Abrupt Decays, and Sylvan Libraries. Finally, I fetch Tundras for STP and my win con, Geist of St. Traft. Therefore, W is the last color that is available. However, all of the lands produce U and thus, enable Vapor Snag. Vapor Snag also ups the deck's blue count to enable Force of Will.
I plan to do some testing with the Stoneforge Mystic version. In that version, STP becomes more powerful, as Tundra will usually be your 2nd fetched land, in order to enable Stoneforge. So, perhaps Vapor Snag gets the cut in the SFM version.

Swords to Plowshares
The best removal in the format. This, along with Lingering Souls from the sideboard, are the primary reasons for running white (as opposed to splashing red and gaining Lighting Bolts and Pyroblasts / Red Elemental Blasts from the sideboard.)

Abrupt Decay
Very strong removal. This card and Deathrite Shaman are what makes this deck viable. Abrupt Decay is awesome in that it can target any permanent with cc<=3 and that is cannot be countered. A savvy opponent may try to keep you off of green and/or black, which can become an issue if Deathrite is not in play.

Inquisition of Kozilek
Targeted discard. In addition to Deathrite, Abrupt Decay, and Lingering Souls' flashback ability, targeted discard is a massive advantage from black. This deck's ability to use both discard and counter-magic to attack opponent's hands gives the deck a better game 1 match up against combo. In subsequent games, this deck can board into more discard and counterspells.

Thoughtseize
My favorite discard spell in the deck. In other decks, I've leaned toward Inquisition of Kozilek due to Thoughtseize's -2 life. However, Deathrite's ability negates the loss of life rather well. I like running the full 4 Thoughtseizes (2 main, 2 board), but Mark has decided against them (you can read about that above.) I think either decision is correct based upon your meta. In a meta with more combo, the full playset of Thoughtseize feels very powerful. In a meta with more aggro, extra removal is a benefit.

Sylvan Library
I cannot emphasize how good this card is. I like to see it every match up. I've considered running 2 (1 main, 1 board) and probably will if Abrupt Decay becomes more prevalent. Sylvan provides excellent filtering and the ability to draw extra cards helps in a variety of match-ups. Again, Deathrite's +2 ability enables extra card draws in longer games, making Sylvan Library an auto-include.

Water_Wizard
12-15-2012, 06:06 AM
SIDEBOARD ANALYSIS

Let's start with Jasper's sideboard and go through it card by card:
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Envelop
2 Thoughtseize
3 Lingering Souls

Cavern of Souls - I really don't understand this card choice. I'm sure the German team who tested this list had a very good idea for this card's inclusion, but when you look at the deck list, the only two creatures who share a creature type are Delver and Clique (from the board). My guess is that Cavern is included to push through a Geist of St. Traft. However, in a deck that is running 4 colors and 27 spells, it is hurtful to have any land that can only produce colorless mana for the majority of your spells.

Vendilion Clique - This card is good vs. combo and control. The deck easily supports the UU. This card is possibly a 2-of.

Engineered Explosives - Because this deck can produce up to 5 colors (courtesy of Deathrite), Engineered Explosives can become very big. Mainly used for Entreat Angel tokens and Mongeese, this card is a catch-all and fits well in this deck. At first glance, one may think that Deathrite would keep Nimble Mongoose under control, however, RUG's 6+ burn spell and 3+ post-board Submerges can keep Deathrite on the sidelines.

Umezawa's Jitte For the aggro match-ups and excellent in combination with Lingering Souls. In the SFM version, this card usually makes the main deck and this slot can be replace with Sword of Feast and Famine, should you so wish.

Swords to Plowshares - The best creature removal in the format. Players have started to main deck more STPs, so this slot may shift to the main deck or be replaced by some number of Path to Exiles in aggro-heavy metas.

- the German builder took a 'shotgun' approach to the sideboard counter-suite. However, I've found myself wanting for 3 Spell Pierce vs. decks like Enchantress. Flusterstorm has its implications vs. Combo and Counterbalance and Envelop is very good vs. Miracles, so depending upon your meta, I can see any combination of the above as being strong choices.

2 [cards]Thoughtseize - Thoughtseize is good for combo-heavy metas. Can be come a flex-slot for extra removal or board control vs. metas that like to win via board state vs. the stack.

3 Lingering Souls - one of the best, if not the best, card in the sideboard. It comes in vs. aggro, it comes in vs. tempo, it comes in vs. control. About the only match-up you don't want to board this card in is vs. combo. It creates blockers to allow you to dig for answers, it creates evasive attackers, and it creates virtual card advantage through allowing you to flash it back. Vs. Miracles, it allows you to create 2 tokens at a time and forces them to use their sweepers sub-optimally.

Other Sideboard Options

Generally, I will start with links to two of wcm8's posts.

This link contains an updated list and analysis of about every viable sideboard option for the BUG shell: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11605-DTB-Team-America-(Aggro-Tempo-Thread)&p=620813&highlight=#post620813

Here is a link where wcm8 discusses viable sideboard options for the white and red versions of this deck: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?11605-DTB-Team-America-(Aggro-Tempo-Thread)&p=689460&highlight=#post689460

Some additional sideboard cards that merit special attention are:

Meddling Mage - this deck supports UW and a 2/2 beater that provides permanent disruption and pitches to FOW is never a bad thing. Best for combo decks that revolve around one card, such as Show and Tell or Ad Nauseam.

Engineered Plague - Good against tribal decks like Goblins, Merfolk, or Elves. However, more than 1 naming 'Elf' will kill your Deathrites. Additionally, Engineered Plague on 'Humans,' as was popular when Maverick was more frequent, will kill unflipped Delvers.

Sideboard Strategies & Match-Up Analysis and Results
This is a work in progress and will be updated as testing produces results. If you have sideboard strategies, post in this forum or private message me and I will include them here.

Using the Geist list vs. RUG Delver

On the play: -4 FOW, -2 Thoughtseize, -1 Geist +3 Lingering Souls, +1 STP, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Jitte?
On the draw: -1 FOW, -3 Daze, -2 Thoughtseize, -2 Geist, +3 Lingering Souls, +1 EE, +2 STP, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Jitte?

Using the Geist list vs. Goblins, 2-0 Matches, 4-2 Games

-3 Daze, -4 FOW, -4 Geist, +3 STP, +3 L. Souls, +1 Jitte, +1 EE, +2 Thoughtseize, +1 Cavern.

I found we have plenty of turn 1 answers to a resolved Lackey (Deathrite, Delver, STP, Vapor Snag) and Abrupt Decay can hit an Aether Vial. Daze and FOW are near useless with Cavern of Souls and no Wastelands (I think Cavern should be legendary).

Using the Geist list vs. ANT, 1-0 Matches, 2-1 Games

Play: - 2 Vapor Snag, -1 STP, -1 Abrupt Decay, -2 Geist, +1 V. Clique, +1 Envelop, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Flusterstorm, +2 Thoughtseize
Draw: - 2 Vapor Snag, -1 STP, -3 Geist, +1 V. Clique, +1 Envelop, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Flusterstorm, +2 Thoughtseize

Vs. unknown decks, I've found that it is always best to leave in Abrupt Decay (vs. a card like STP). Because you don't know if they will bring in Xantid Swarm, Dark Confidant, Defense Grip, Carpet of Flowers, or some other mojo, Abrupt is an answer to everything. In a pinch, it can destroy an LED or Lotus Petal that was played to avoid discard.

On the play, I remove an Aburpt Decay and include an extra Geist because Daze becomes another answer to Xantid Swarm and Geist becomes active a turn earlier.

Using the Geist list vs. Maverick, 0-1 Matches, 1-2 Games

Play: -3 Geist, -4 FOW, -1 Thoughtseize, +1 EE, +1 Jitte, +3 STP, +3 Lingering Souls
Draw: -4 Geist, -3 Daze, -1 FOW, +1 EE, +1 Jitte, +3 STP, +3 Lingering Souls

Daze and Geist lose value on the draw. Geist is great if you can land it on an open board or a board with Noble Hierarch or Mother of Runes. However, once Thalia or KotR hits play, Geist is not very good. The Force of Wills on the draw are for Choke and possibly GSZ. On the play, I don't worry about Choke so much because Maverick has to answer our early threats (Maverick can land a Choke and we can still ride an early Delver to victory). Abrupt Decay, especially in combination with Deathrite is a great answer to Choke, KotR, Scavenging Ooze, and equipment.

Using the Geist list vs. Turbo Eldrazi, 1-2 Matches, 2-4 Games

- targeted discard helps vs. this match-up, but the lack of Wasteland hurts.

Using the Geist list vs. Merfolk, 1-0 Matches, 2-1 Games

Using the Geist list vs. Belcher, 1-0 Matches, 2-0 Games

Using the Geist list vs. BUG Midrange, 0-1 Matches, 1-2 Games

Using the Geist list vs. UW Miracles, 1-0 Matches, 2-0 Games

Using the Geist list vs. UW Rest in Peace, 1-0 Matches, 2-0 Games

Using the Geist list vs. UG Enchantress, 1-0 Matches, 2-1 Games

Using the Geist list vs. Bant Midrange, 1-0 Matches, 2-0 Games

Using the Geist list vs. Jund, 1-0 Matches, 2-0 Games

Using the Geist list vs. Aggro Loam, 1-0 Matches, 2-0 Games

Using the Geist list vs. Dredge, 1-0 Matches, 2-0 Games

Using the Geist list vs. Combo Elves, 1-0 Matches, 1-0 Games

Water_Wizard
12-15-2012, 06:08 AM
Reserved

Schembo
12-15-2012, 08:50 AM
Just pointing that 56 you grasped from poromagia's site was number of different types of decks that showed up in finnish champs, not the number of participants. 108 was the correct number of players there.

BlackStarDeceiver
12-15-2012, 11:19 AM
Joe Bernal is playing 4 Colour Deathrite with Jace/SFM/Goyf/Deathrite at the Invitational in LA and is the last undefeated player right now in the field.

Maybe someone can get a hold of the list.

door
12-15-2012, 02:20 PM
The decks presented match in colors and that they both have Deathite shaman, but the archetype, gameplan and winconditions are completely different.

Tanith
12-15-2012, 02:21 PM
where can you see it? I'm at starcitygames and there are no Legacy matches.

Philipp2293
12-15-2012, 02:28 PM
The deck in question is played in the legacy portion of the invitational.

Water_Wizard
12-15-2012, 02:37 PM
Just pointing that 56 you grasped from poromagia's site was number of different types of decks that showed up in finnish champs, not the number of participants. 108 was the correct number of players there.

Thank you. Corrected. My Finnish is . . . .


Joe Bernal is playing 4 Colour Deathrite with Jace/SFM/Goyf/Deathrite at the Invitational in LA and is the last undefeated player right now in the field.

Maybe someone can get a hold of the list.

I will post it once I get a hold of it. It seems like this deck has really taken off in the past few weeks. I've played against Lewis Laskin and Tom Martell on MTGO, both rocking this list.


The decks presented match in colors and that they both have Deathite shaman, but the archetype, gameplan and winconditions are completely different.

How so? Because one runs Geist of St. Traft and the other runs Stoneforge Mystic?

I haven't had time to complete the opening Primer, but once I do, I'll make the argument that the shell is the Deathrites, Delvers, Goyfs, Ponders, Brainstorms, Force of Wills, spot removal, and targeted discard. Then there are flex slots that include, but are not limited to, Geist of St. Traft, Knight of the Reliquary, Stoneforge Mystic, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and/or Liliana of the Viel.

This deck is still in-flux and developmental. Some people have gone with a modified BUG Tempo shell. Others have modified an Esper Stoneblade list. Still others have modified a UW Stoneforge Tempo list, while others look more like Bant Aggro splashing black for Abrupt Decay and targeted discard.

We'll see how the deck evolves and into what different win cons, but the base is the same.

door
12-15-2012, 04:08 PM
So can you answer why delver is played in the first list and not in the second? How about Jace or daze?

The first one is a tempo deck. It's plan is close to RUG delver's one. It wants to flip delver ASAP and beat fast. The cards like daze are good here, because the deck wants to close games fast.
The second one wants to control. It interacts with all opponent's actions. The main game plans are to clear way in a middle/late game for mystic and/or Jace. It has nothing in common with fast aggro and is close to esper blade.

These decks do not belong to one thread. It would be better to start a "tempo ugbw" thread and "control agbw" and collect decklists according to their archetype. Otherwise the thread will turn into porridge. Some people will discuss cards better for aggro/tempo, some for control. No one will understand each other because they would mean different things.

Water_Wizard
12-15-2012, 04:18 PM
So can you answer why delver is played in the first list and not in the second? How about Jace or daze?

The first one is a tempo deck. It's plan is close to RUG delver's one. It wants to flip delver ASAP and beat fast. The cards like daze are good here, because the deck wants to close games fast.
The second one wants to control. It interacts with all opponent's actions. The main game plans are to clear way in a middle/late game for mystic and/or Jace. It has nothing in common with fast aggro and is close to esper blade.

These decks do not belong to one thread. It would be better to start a "tempo ugbw" thread and "control agbw" and collect decklists according to their archetype. Otherwise the thread will turn into porridge. Some people will discuss cards better for aggro/tempo, some for control. No one will understand each other because they would mean different things.

Agreed. Thank you for the input. The 2nd list (Ohman's Finnish National's list) is really Esper with a slight green splash for Deathrite and a single Abrupt Decay out of the board. I agree with you, his list is more control oriented and does not belong in this thread. This is a tempo thread, based around a tempo deck that focuses on landing an early threat, disruption, and a victory between turns 6-10.

lordofthepit
12-15-2012, 05:49 PM
How does this compare to 3-color Wild Nacatl or 1-color Cursecatcher?

Water_Wizard
12-15-2012, 06:18 PM
How does this compare to 3-color Wild Nacatl or 1-color Cursecatcher?

I'm not sure I understand your question. You mean Zoo or Merfolk?

I'm familiar with Dark Zoo and Haunted Zoo, so perhaps comparisons can be made. However, those decks tend to be Aggro (get you from 20 to 0 as quickly as possible), while this deck is Tempo (which packs disruption in the form of discard, removal, and counterspells.)

If you could post the lists that you are referring to, I could better provide analysis.

Water_Wizard
12-15-2012, 07:12 PM
There are two major arch-types of 4-color Deathrite emerging.

The first is the tempo version, which is covered above. The tempo version looks like a modified version of BUG tempo or UW Tempo. It runs Delver of Secrets and around 19 lands, with no main-deck threats above 3 cc. It has more of a heavy reliance upon green, running Tarmogoyf and Sylvan Library in addition to Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay.

The second version is a mid-range version. It looks like a modified version of EsperStoneblade. This version runs 22-23 lands and main deck Jace and does not include Delver of Secrets. The deck splashes green for Deathrite Shaman, Abrupt Decay, and possibly Maelstrom Pulse in the board. Two versions of this deck are available here:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51658

and here:

http://poromagia.com/index.php?page=viewarticle&articleid=116 (2nd list)

lavafrogg
12-15-2012, 07:23 PM
How does this compare to 3-color Wild Nacatl or 1-color Cursecatcher?

+1

But more importantly, 4 color decks have too many mana problems to be viable. People used to try and play 4 color thresh back in the day, one guy won a GP(I think...Hemet Somethingorother) and then everyone realized that 4 colors with wastelands and stifles in the format is too difficult to obtain. This is also why 4 color blue is not a real deck.

Water_Wizard
12-15-2012, 07:36 PM
+1

But more importantly, 4 color decks have too many mana problems to be viable. People used to try and play 4 color thresh back in the day, one guy won a GP(I think...Hemet Somethingorother) and then everyone realized that 4 colors with wastelands and stifles in the format is too difficult to obtain. This is also why 4 color blue is not a real deck.

This comment may have been true before the printing of Deathrite Shaman. However, Deathrite provides you with mana fixing, life gain, life loss, and graveyard manipulation all in a 1 cc 1/2 body. Previous decks were relying solely upon land or things like Birds of Paradise, that outside of being a mana producer, were useless.

4-Color Deathrite's biggest fear is not the destruction of its mana base, it's the destruction of its graveyard. The mana base is fairly sound because a) the deck runs a relatively low curve, b) none of the main deck threats require more than 1 of any colored mana (no UU or BB), and c) to attack the mana base, an opponent must attack both lands (Wasteland/Stifle) and Deathrite or the graveyard. The mana plan has built-in redundancies.

I think two weeks ago, your comment had merit. However, how do you explain the numerous high-place finishes? Look at the German list. Both 2nd and 3rd place were RUG Delver decks packing 4 Wastelands and 4 Stifles, so clearly he had to get through one or both of them to win the tourney.

EDIT: I would also like to ask how many times you have played this deck? How many times have you played against it? It's easy to comment from the armchair, but until you've actually stepped into the game, your credibility has its limits. When this deck first appeared in the BUG Tempo forum, I thought that it was ridiculous that the deck ran 4 Geists. I'm still not sold on that slot, but if you run the deck, it is very smooth.

All change goes through three distinct phases. Dismissal (we're in that stage now), vehement opposition, and then general acceptance, acting as if the change were self-evident.

There are 4 lists on SCG's website from the Invitational and all 4 are running the full play set of Deathrite Shamans (15 main, 1 sideboard.)

(nameless one)
12-15-2012, 11:09 PM
How does this compare to 3-color Wild Nacatl or 1-color Cursecatcher?

Because Death-rite Shaman can attack strategies that are prevalent in Legacy where as Wild Nacatl does it's own thing and Cursecatcher was good against a strategy that has hit an all time low (Storm).

lavafrogg
12-16-2012, 02:12 AM
This comment may have been true before the printing of Deathrite Shaman. However, Deathrite provides you with mana fixing, life gain, life loss, and graveyard manipulation all in a 1 cc 1/2 body. Previous decks were relying solely upon land or things like Birds of Paradise, that outside of being a mana producer, were useless.

4-Color Deathrite's biggest fear is not the destruction of its mana base, it's the destruction of its graveyard. The mana base is fairly sound because a) the deck runs a relatively low curve, b) none of the main deck threats require more than 1 of any colored mana (no UU or BB), and c) to attack the mana base, an opponent must attack both lands (Wasteland/Stifle) and Deathrite or the graveyard. The mana plan has built-in redundancies.

I think two weeks ago, your comment had merit. However, how do you explain the numerous high-place finishes? Look at the German list. Both 2nd and 3rd place were RUG Delver decks packing 4 Wastelands and 4 Stifles, so clearly he had to get through one or both of them to win the tourney.

EDIT: I would also like to ask how many times you have played this deck? How many times have you played against it? It's easy to comment from the armchair, but until you've actually stepped into the game, your credibility has its limits. When this deck first appeared in the BUG Tempo forum, I thought that it was ridiculous that the deck ran 4 Geists. I'm still not sold on that slot, but if you run the deck, it is very smooth.

All change goes through three distinct phases. Dismissal (we're in that stage now), vehement opposition, and then general acceptance, acting as if the change were self-evident.

There are 4 lists on SCG's website from the Invitational and all 4 are running the full play set of Deathrite Shamans (15 main, 1 sideboard.)

I am the biggest supporter of Deathrite Shaman, you can look at posts back when he was spoiled and I raved about how every rock player should get four while they were still 4 dollars. I love the card to death. That being said, if you are relying on your shaman to fix your mana than RUG is going to kill your shaman. The strength of RUG is its versatility and when they go back to 4 bolt 4 (burn spell) they will kill the shaman on sight and also get a leg up on Maverick.

Once a deck is in the top 8, anything can happen. I watched AJ Sacher lose two games to show and tell that he had no business losing playing the combo stomping BUG list with discard and counters. RUG decks and BUG decks in the top 8 tells me that the RUG/BUG decks are two top decks that have advantages over each other. BUG uses shaman to attack the graveyard and RUG uses disruption to attack the mana base. Soon RUG will pack more scavenging oozes to counter the shaman and the cat and mouse will continue.

What I am saying is 4 color decks are too unstable for long term play hopefully I am wrong and the format can continue to innovate and grow, the deck is still just 4 color blue so it is not like we are reinventing the wheel or anything.

Water_Wizard
12-16-2012, 03:29 AM
Team Channel Fireball 4-Color list?: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51638

I love how they eschewed Force of Will. The deck runs no counterspells, besides the 2 Envelops in the board.

Here's another 4-Color list. It looks like Big Maverick: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51628

It seems like the mid-range 4-color lists were preferred at the Invitational. The lists above run 23 and 22 lands, respectively, and both are packing a full play set of Jaces.

No 4-Color Deathrite Tempo decks made the cut. I don't know if any were played.

catmint
12-16-2012, 06:50 AM
Side notes:

4color deathrite is not an optimal deck name, given that there is already a very different 4 color deathrite deck (waterfalls aka UGrb cascade) and there might be other ideas. I suggest the deckname should include the colors and the strategy aka uwgb tempo.

Also my interpretation of "established deck" is different. Having a couple of good finishes does not make a list an established deck imo. If it establishes or becomes DTB mods can always move it.

ESG
12-16-2012, 05:20 PM
none of the main deck threats require more than 1 of any colored mana (no UU or BB), and c) to attack the mana base, an opponent must attack both lands (Wasteland/Stifle) and Deathrite or the graveyard.

Geist requires UW, which is essentially the same, since neither of those colors match the one you need to play a Deathrite Shaman. In all honesty, I would LOVE to be paired against this deck. No basics, no grave hate aside from Deathrite Shaman, no Wastelands of its own. Huge vulnerabilities: Moon effects, recurring Wastelands, removal on Deathrite Shaman, Dredge. Veteran Explorer decks get one-sided ramp. Price of Progress hits for the max every time.

Deathrite Shaman is a great card, but this deck is using him as a crutch.

bruizar
12-16-2012, 05:22 PM
4 Geist in a deck with black without Shizo is a grave mistake

mini1337s
12-17-2012, 03:43 PM
Joe Bernal is playing 4 Colour Deathrite with Jace/SFM/Goyf/Deathrite at the Invitational in LA and is the last undefeated player right now in the field.

Maybe someone can get a hold of the list.

This is the decklist: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51658

The decklist is:
Creatures (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Dryad Arbor

Planeswalkers (5)
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Spells (18)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the Loam
2 Thoughtseize

Lands (22)
2 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas

Sideboard
1 Baneslayer Angel
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Sylvan Library
1 Counterspell
1 Envelop
3 Spell Pierce
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Armageddon
1 Thoughtseize

BlackStarDeceiver
12-17-2012, 05:53 PM
This is the decklist: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51658



The link is right, but the list is wrong:


Creatures (10)

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic

Planeswalkers (3)

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (23)

1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins

Spells (24)

1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sylvan Library
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
1 Intuition
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Life from the Loam
3 Lingering Souls
4 Thoughtseize
1 Vindicate

Sideboard
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
3 Engineered Plague
1 Counterspell
3 Extirpate
4 Force of Will
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Maelstrom Pulse



I played that list yesterday to a 5-1 finish for 1st/56 ppl going 5-0 and being secured first because of the opponent score.
I had no mana issues at all, the deck was amazingly fun to play, though i feel theres a lot of room for improvement.
The mana was pretty solid all day.

R1 2-1 against BUG Delver
R2 2-1 against Elves (kinda messed up game 2 with a wrong timed Decay)
R3 2-1 against UB Tezzeret (got nut drawn game 2 on the draw with T2 Jace into T3 Tezz into T5 Karn)
R4 2-1 against Esper Blade (again nutdrant in game 2, i Seize him T1 on the draw an see Fetch Fetch Sofaf SFM SFM Skull Jitte)
R5 2-0 against UW MiracleHelm (T2 Clique into T3 Jace is pretty good, being able to Vindicate basics as well)
R5 1-2 against Reanimator (mull to 5 game 1 with him seizing t1 and entomb/reanimate T2, G3 got lost because he pondered, shuffled and drew reanimate of the top for Griselbrand)

Water_Wizard
12-17-2012, 10:38 PM
Thank you for posting those lists.

In response to a few earlier comments:
1) The deck is developing. This thread was created to consolidate discussions that were occurring across a number of separate threads. Deathrite Shaman fits very naturally into some decks. For example, in decks like Junk, Jund, BUG, Elves, and Zombardment, Deathrite fits into these decks' existing shells and strategies and the decision of whether or not to include Deathrite becomes one of which slots to fill and which slots to cut. These decks should be discussed in their original threads, just as new additions to any deck are discussed in that thread as new cards are spoiled or older cards become good as the metagame shifts (i.e. Overmaster in Omni-Tell).
This thread is to discuss decks that have evolved or spawned from Deathrite. The major reason I opened this thread was to remove conversations between Mark Sun, wcm8, Neffy, other posters, and myself from the BUG Tempo thread. Once a deck starts supporting Swords to Plowshares and Lingering Souls, it is no longer BUG Tempo, hence, the creation of a new thread.

2) The deck seems to be taking on a number of arch-types, which I will discuss below. As has been previously suggested, it may become appropriate to rename the thread or create sub-threads (similar to the BUG Tempo / BUG Midrange/Control split.) If this becomes appropriate, I will work with the mods to rename the threads as necessary.

Let's look at recent performances from SCG: Las Angeles!

4-Color 'Control' by Nicholas Spagnolo
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51628
This list looks like Bant, Junk, and Maverick all got together to have a baby.
I commend Nick on his list and his finish- this is truly a unique creation worthy of it's own thread. This list has discard, removal, countermagic, planeswalkers, utility creatures, and closers. It's the best of all worlds and I'm sure it was a blast to play!
I think Nick put this list together and realized that with 4 Deathrites and 4 Hierarchs, he could really test the limits with his mana producing abilities. He runs UU and WW with quite a few B and G spells. He's also able to fit 3 Wastelands and a Karakas into the mix.
For purposes of discussion, let's call this list '4-Color Deathrite Midrange' and let's refer to the list I posted on the opening post as '4-Color Deathrite Tempo.' As noted above, if this deck takes off, I will create separate threads.

4-Color Esper Stoneblade as run by Joe Bernal and Lewis Laskin
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51658
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51638

It's interesting how SCG chose to give these lists different names, although they are similar in build, excepting a few slot decisions. Both are a ported version of Esper Stoneblade, Joe's list adding green for Sylvan Library, Abrupt Decay, Life from the Loam, Maelstrom Pulse (out of the board) and Deathrite's 3rd ability.

Lewis's list also adds green for Sylvan Library, Abrupt Decay, Life from the Loam, and Deathrite's 3rd ability.

These decks run 23 lands, including Wasteland and Karakas or Academy Ruins. I can understand if people want to discuss these lists in the Esper Stoneblade thread, as they really are a modified Esper Stoneblade shell (although I welcome conversation here.)

Other 3-and-4 Color Lists Running Deathrite
It's interesting that SCG also chose to call this list 'Esper Stoneblade' (just like Lewis's list), although it only runs green for Deathrite's 3rd ability and Choke out of the board and actually doesn't run blue at all- it's basically a Deadguy Ale list with Choke in the sideboard: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51710
This is a Team Italia list that also chose to run green for Deathrite's 3rd ability and Choke out of the 'board: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51650
These lists should be discussed in the Deadguy Ale and Team Italia lists, respectively.

4-Color Deathrite Tempo
I modified the 4-Color Deathrite Shaman Tempo deck as follows:

Lands (19)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra

Creatures (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Stoneforge Mystic

Spells (26)
1 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
2 Vapor Snag
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard (15)
2 Force of Will
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Envelop
2 Thoughtseize
3 Lingering Souls

I still like Vapor Snag.

Stoneforge Mystic opens up new lines of play and helps shore-up the deck's weaker match-ups (aggro/tempo/control/creature-based-mid-range decks like Bant.)

Force of Will has been very underwhelming and I'm considering cutting it all together.

Lingering Souls has been amazing, and I'm considering moving it to the main, but that might make the deck a little too focused on stopping the aggro and tempo match-ups and vulnerable to combo.

Sword of Feast and Famine is not great, and I'm considering freeing up that sideboard slot, possibly with a 3rd Force of Will for the combo match-ups.

bruizar
12-18-2012, 02:03 AM
Thank you for posting those lists.

In response to a few earlier comments:
1) The deck is developing. This thread was created to consolidate discussions that were occurring across a number of separate threads. Deathrite Shaman fits very naturally into some decks. For example, in decks like Junk, Jund, BUG, Elves, and Zombardment, Deathrite fits into these decks' existing shells and strategies and the decision of whether or not to include Deathrite becomes one of which slots to fill and which slots to cut. These decks should be discussed in their original threads, just as new additions to any deck are discussed in that thread as new cards are spoiled or older cards become good as the metagame shifts (i.e. Overmaster in Omni-Tell).
This thread is to discuss decks that have evolved or spawned from Deathrite. The major reason I opened this thread was to remove conversations between Mark Sun, wcm8, Neffy, other posters, and myself from the BUG Tempo thread. Once a deck starts supporting Swords to Plowshares and Lingering Souls, it is no longer BUG Tempo, hence, the creation of a new thread.

2) The deck seems to be taking on a number of arch-types, which I will discuss below. As has been previously suggested, it may become appropriate to rename the thread or create sub-threads (similar to the BUG Tempo / BUG Midrange/Control split.) If this becomes appropriate, I will work with the mods to rename the threads as necessary.

Let's look at recent performances from SCG: Las Angeles!

4-Color 'Control' by Nicholas Spagnolo
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51628
This list looks like Bant, Junk, and Maverick all got together to have a baby.
I commend Nick on his list and his finish- this is truly a unique creation worthy of it's own thread. This list has discard, removal, countermagic, planeswalkers, utility creatures, and closers. It's the best of all worlds and I'm sure it was a blast to play!
I think Nick put this list together and realized that with 4 Deathrites and 4 Hierarchs, he could really test the limits with his mana producing abilities. He runs UU and WW with quite a few B and G spells. He's also able to fit 3 Wastelands and a Karakas into the mix.
For purposes of discussion, let's call this list '4-Color Deathrite Midrange' and let's refer to the list I posted on the opening post as '4-Color Deathrite Tempo.' As noted above, if this deck takes off, I will create separate threads.

4-Color Esper Stoneblade as run by Joe Bernal and Lewis Laskin
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51658
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51638

It's interesting how SCG chose to give these lists different names, although they are similar in build, excepting a few slot decisions. Both are a ported version of Esper Stoneblade, Joe's list adding green for Sylvan Library, Abrupt Decay, Life from the Loam, Maelstrom Pulse (out of the board) and Deathrite's 3rd ability.

Lewis's list also adds green for Sylvan Library, Abrupt Decay, Life from the Loam, and Deathrite's 3rd ability.

These decks run 23 lands, including Wasteland and Karakas or Academy Ruins. I can understand if people want to discuss these lists in the Esper Stoneblade thread, as they really are a modified Esper Stoneblade shell (although I welcome conversation here.)

Other 3-and-4 Color Lists Running Deathrite
It's interesting that SCG also chose to call this list 'Esper Stoneblade' (just like Lewis's list), although it only runs green for Deathrite's 3rd ability and Choke out of the board and actually doesn't run blue at all- it's basically a Deadguy Ale list with Choke in the sideboard: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51710
This is a Team Italia list that also chose to run green for Deathrite's 3rd ability and Choke out of the 'board: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51650
These lists should be discussed in the Deadguy Ale and Team Italia lists, respectively.

4-Color Deathrite Tempo
I modified the 4-Color Deathrite Shaman Tempo deck as follows:

Lands (19)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra

Creatures (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Stoneforge Mystic

Spells (26)
1 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
2 Vapor Snag
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard (15)
2 Force of Will
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Envelop
2 Thoughtseize
3 Lingering Souls

I still like Vapor Snag.

Stoneforge Mystic opens up new lines of play and helps shore-up the deck's weaker match-ups (aggro/tempo/control/creature-based-mid-range decks like Bant.)

Force of Will has been very underwhelming and I'm considering cutting it all together.

Lingering Souls has been amazing, and I'm considering moving it to the main, but that might make the deck a little too focused on stopping the aggro and tempo match-ups and vulnerable to combo.

Sword of Feast and Famine is not great, and I'm considering freeing up that sideboard slot, possibly with a 3rd Force of Will for the combo match-ups.

Death rite shaman isn't the defining creature in any of these decks. It could have been birds of paradise and these decks could still work even though they would lose some utility. I really dislike whe this thread is going. Is it an scd thread for death rite shaman or what is the purpose of the thread?

Water_Wizard
12-18-2012, 03:37 AM
Death rite shaman isn't the defining creature in any of these decks. It could have been birds of paradise and these decks could still work even though they would lose some utility. I really dislike whe this thread is going. Is it an scd thread for death rite shaman or what is the purpose of the thread?

The purpose of the thread is to discuss decks that did not exist before the printing of Deathrite Shaman, and to a lesser extent, Abrupt Decay.

The deck that won the Berlin tournament (UWGB Tempo) did not exist before the printing of Deathrite Shaman.

Nick S.'s deck did not exist before the printing of Deathrite Shaman.

Other decks, such as Esper, Junk, etc., existed and were just modified by the printing of new cards, as happens.

Did you understand my post above? The major reason I opened this post was to remove a sub-conversation we were having in the BUG Tempo thread. If you read pages 116-122 in the BUG Tempo thread, you'll see that first, wcm8 discussed splashing red. Then, the Berlin list posted, so Mark Sun, myself, and some other players were posting results from a deck that was close to BUG Tempo, but clearly wasn't BUG Tempo. Hence, a new thread was created.

Perhaps I was being optimistic by placing the thread in the Established Decks section; however, with the great amount of success the deck has had in the limited amount of time that it has been played, I felt that it belonged here.

Please keep future discussion related to the deck. If you've never played it, don't discuss how this deck is like some deck that failed three years ago in a totally different metagame, and, therefore, will lose. Don't make baseless blanket assumptions about the weaknesses of the deck without ever having played it or ever having played against it. If you don't like the direction that the thread is heading, then don't read it. I'm not going to post comments to myself. Eventually, it will fall to the bottom of the list with other decks that have gone out of vogue.

I've never opened a thread on the source before, but it has been an eye-opening experience. The number of people who will chime in to offer completely untested and inaccurate comments is just astounding. That being said, there are also a lot of very knowledgable commenters on the source, and those are the types of people that I hope to hear more from. I oscillate between a desire to discredit every stupid post made on this thread and a desire to move forward with actual discussion of the deck. I'm choosing to move forward with the discussion of the deck, after all, don't argue with a fool, people might not know the difference.

bruizar, don't think all of this is directed at you, because it isn't. If you don't like the direction the thread is headed, then why don't you offer suggestions?

bruizar
12-18-2012, 06:58 AM
The purpose of the thread is to discuss decks that did not exist before the printing of Deathrite Shaman, and to a lesser extent, Abrupt Decay.

The deck that won the Berlin tournament (UWGB Tempo) did not exist before the printing of Deathrite Shaman.

Nick S.'s deck did not exist before the printing of Deathrite Shaman.

Other decks, such as Esper, Junk, etc., existed and were just modified by the printing of new cards, as happens.

Did you understand my post above? The major reason I opened this post was to remove a sub-conversation we were having in the BUG Tempo thread. If you read pages 116-122 in the BUG Tempo thread, you'll see that first, wcm8 discussed splashing red. Then, the Berlin list posted, so Mark Sun, myself, and some other players were posting results from a deck that was close to BUG Tempo, but clearly wasn't BUG Tempo. Hence, a new thread was created.

Perhaps I was being optimistic by placing the thread in the Established Decks section; however, with the great amount of success the deck has had in the limited amount of time that it has been played, I felt that it belonged here.

Please keep future discussion related to the deck. If you've never played it, don't discuss how this deck is like some deck that failed three years ago in a totally different metagame, and, therefore, will lose. Don't make baseless blanket assumptions about the weaknesses of the deck without ever having played it or ever having played against it. If you don't like the direction that the thread is heading, then don't read it. I'm not going to post comments to myself. Eventually, it will fall to the bottom of the list with other decks that have gone out of vogue.

I've never opened a thread on the source before, but it has been an eye-opening experience. The number of people who will chime in to offer completely untested and inaccurate comments is just astounding. That being said, there are also a lot of very knowledgable commenters on the source, and those are the types of people that I hope to hear more from. I oscillate between a desire to discredit every stupid post made on this thread and a desire to move forward with actual discussion of the deck. I'm choosing to move forward with the discussion of the deck, after all, don't argue with a fool, people might not know the difference.

bruizar, don't think all of this is directed at you, because it isn't. If you don't like the direction the thread is headed, then why don't you offer suggestions?

The thing that I think is misleading the thread is that there are many different decks running a couple of the same cards discussed in the thread. This make sit unfocused. I'd like to sit and discuss 1 deck with a clear gameplan instead of going back and forth between lists before a dominant archetype is formed and thus challenged for its position later.

Problem is, I don't know which that deck is.

Water_Wizard
12-18-2012, 02:37 PM
The thing that I think is misleading the thread is that there are many different decks running a couple of the same cards discussed in the thread. This make sit unfocused. I'd like to sit and discuss 1 deck with a clear gameplan instead of going back and forth between lists before a dominant archetype is formed and thus challenged for its position later.

Problem is, I don't know which that deck is.

Thank you for your suggestion and response.

At present, there are three versions of the deck.

1) Tempo - the German list cited in the opening post - runs ~19 lands, Delver of Secrets, and no planeswalkers.

2) Mid-Range - Nick S's list from SCG - looks like a mutation of Bant, Junk, and Maverick - runs 22-23 lands with planeswalkers.

3) Modified Esper Stoneblade lists - Joe's and Lewis's lists from SCG - Esper Stoneblade with a green splash for Deathrite, Abrupt Decay and other goodies such as Life from the Loam and/or Maelstrom Pulse. Runs 23 lands and planeswalkers in an Esper shell.

The first two lists are unique and deserve their own thread. I could not find an existing thread where conversation about the first two lists would belong.

The third list is very close to Esper Stoneblade and perhaps belongs in the Blade Control thread.

.Ix
12-19-2012, 01:10 PM
I'm so glad some people finally did well with 4c good stuff decks. Now that they're no longer so easy to make fun of, we can actually get some discussion going.

I really like Nick Spagnolo's deck. It runs 13 "planeswalkers", making it very good at grinding out advantages from different positions. I'm not sure about the 4 Brainstorms and 4 Jaces, though. Obviously these cards are very good, but are they really necessary? With the deck's card quality this high, the deck might not need to dig so much.

Ziveeman
12-19-2012, 01:58 PM
(Forgive me if this doesn't belong here, but the thread is titled 4-color Deathrite Shamana and I don't know where else to post this) Just to throw this out there, what about a 4-color Deathrite build with red? Basically, RUG Delver + Deathrite Shaman. I'm not 100% of its merit, but REB is always a good sideboard card and Lightning Bolt + Deathrite Shaman is a pretty fast clock. Also, REB does hit Jace whereas Abrupt Decay doesn't, so perhaps it's a possible way to go. I threw together this list (the sideboard is a mess) quickly.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
3 Abrupt Decay

3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest

SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Divert
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Darkblast

learntolove6
12-19-2012, 08:12 PM
Can I ask how the midrange/stoneblade version of this deck ever beats combo? Is it only playable in a combo-less metagame? No counterspells and only 4 pieces of disruption is essentially nothing

Water_Wizard
12-20-2012, 03:54 AM
I'm so glad some people finally did well with 4c good stuff decks. Now that they're no longer so easy to make fun of, we can actually get some discussion going.

I really like Nick Spagnolo's deck. It runs 13 "planeswalkers", making it very good at grinding out advantages from different positions. I'm not sure about the 4 Brainstorms and 4 Jaces, though. Obviously these cards are very good, but are they really necessary? With the deck's card quality this high, the deck might not need to dig so much.

Nick's list: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51628 does in fact run 13 planeswalkers if you count the 4 Jaces, 1 Elspeth, 4 Deathrites, 3 GSZ's, and 1 big Garruk in the board.

Brainstorm is just so good in any deck - it allows you to put back unneeded lands, removal, or discard, depending upon the match. With 10 Fetchlands, 3 GSZs, and KotR activations, there are plenty of methods for shuffling the top of your library. Brainstorm is just so good that it is hard not to include it in any deck running blue.

The 4 Jaces is a meta decision. This was a deck for the Invitational, thus, Nick is building it to combat a crowd with a lot of mid-range/control mirrors. You'll notice that a lot of the decks at the invitational run 4 Jaces. Given a 'regular' tournament with an open field, this number is most likely going to drop to 2-3 with the possibility of additional Jaces in the board for the control match-up. I'm betting Nick, as long as most of the other 'pros', expected a lot of mid-range and control- thus, they brought slightly slower decks and upped the Jace count.


Can I ask how the midrange/stoneblade version of this deck ever beats combo? Is it only playable in a combo-less metagame? No counterspells and only 4 pieces of disruption is essentially nothing

It's a meta-game decision. You'll note that both of those decks were played at the Invitational. Pros weren't expecting other pros to play much combo. Joe Bernal's list did run 5 counterspells and 3 V. Cliques in the board to combat the combo match-up. In an open meta, I would expect more counterspells maindeck.

Water_Wizard
12-20-2012, 04:02 AM
(Forgive me if this doesn't belong here, but the thread is titled 4-color Deathrite Shamana and I don't know where else to post this) Just to throw this out there, what about a 4-color Deathrite build with red? Basically, RUG Delver + Deathrite Shaman. I'm not 100% of its merit, but REB is always a good sideboard card and Lightning Bolt + Deathrite Shaman is a pretty fast clock. Also, REB does hit Jace whereas Abrupt Decay doesn't, so perhaps it's a possible way to go. I threw together this list (the sideboard is a mess) quickly.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
3 Abrupt Decay

3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest

SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Divert
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Darkblast

It belongs here. When we originally started discussing 4-color Deathrite, it was in the BUG Tempo thread. wcm8 suggested splashing R for REB out of the board. Then the German uwbg list posted. There are benefits to the R list and benefits to the W list.

The W list offers STP, Lingering Souls, and the possibility of Stoneforge Mystic, Knight of the Reliquary, or Geist of St. Traft. STP is good in metas with big nasties, like Goyf, KotR, and Tombstalker, but Lightning Bolt is better against Agro and combo (for the reach). Abrupt Decay offers some answers to larger creatures, so long as their cc does not exceed 3.

Red offers better sideboard slots, but lacks in its ability to add win conditions. I would add an Ancient Grudge to your list. You could also add 2 Sulfur Elementals. I wouldn't run only 1 E. Plague- 1 without a way to tutor for it isn't going to do much good. Other than that, I like your list.

You make an excellent point about this deck needing an answer for Jace - it's either REB, our own Jace, or Maelstrom Pulse. I'll post some of our selected earlier conversations about the R splash below. They start around page 116 of the BUG Tempo thread. I would run Bayou and Badlands in your mana-base.

You might want to test Nimble and Deathrite together. They can compete for the graveyard. With Deathrite, Nimble, and Goyf, the deck becomes highly dependent upon the graveyard.



3 Pyroblast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pithing Needle (mainly for SDT, also for Jace, Aether Vial, and other random stuff)
2 Thoughtseize
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Nihil Spellbomb


You are also going to update your fetchlands to match your manabase. If you go with Badlands, you'll want lots of lands that will grab Swamps. I would run your mana base like this:
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wastelands

You could cut to 3 UGS and add an extra fetchland if you would like.

These are for a modified BUG version, so it might be best to eschew Wasteland and go with all duals/fetches.

Muxi
12-20-2012, 04:07 AM
I don't think, the midrange lists can. I mean, the list with Jace, Elspeth and Garruk, which Nick played at the Invitationalhad 3 Hymn and 2 Cliques and nothing else to interact with the opponent himself and not his creatures.
The idea of SFM in the tempo list is cute but totally disharmonic to the plan. Thats what I didn't like about the UW Delver deck, which made Top8 at the GP Vidiguris won. It played Delver and SFM. These two cards just don't function well together, not only because you have 5 slots at minimum that won't flip the Wizard but because the game plan is so different.
Maybe the SFM is a viable plan in the midrange deck, just because the KOTR is so bad against the removal suit everybody's playing right now, but your space is very limited.

So, the Vapor Snag in my list from the MKM Open was a relic from the other tempo decks I played in Legacy, where the blue removal was overwhelming. At the moment, I did the move you already mentioned in cutting the Snags for more STP, just because so you can have additional SB slots, which you need. But maybe you need to be this tempo oriented, I don't know..
If there are other questions regarding my list, please feel free to ask ;)
Jasper Grimmer

Water_Wizard
12-20-2012, 04:22 AM
I don't think, the midrange lists can. I mean, the list with Jace, Elspeth and Garruk, which Nick played at the Invitationalhad 3 Hymn and 2 Cliques and nothing else to interact with the opponent himself and not his creatures.
The idea of SFM in the tempo list is cute but totally disharmonic to the plan. Thats what I didn't like about the UW Delver deck, which made Top8 at the GP Vidiguris won. It played Delver and SFM. These two cards just don't function well together, not only because you have 5 slots at minimum that won't flip the Wizard but because the game plan is so different.
Maybe the SFM is a viable plan in the midrange deck, just because the KOTR is so bad against the removal suit everybody's playing right now, but your space is very limited.

So, the Vapor Snag in my list from the MKM Open was a relic from the other tempo decks I played in Legacy, where the blue removal was overwhelming. At the moment, I did the move you already mentioned in cutting the Snags for more STP, just because so you can have additional SB slots, which you need. But maybe you need to be this tempo oriented, I don't know..
If there are other questions regarding my list, please feel free to ask ;)
Jasper Grimmer

Thanks for posting and congrats on the finish!

I don't understand your SFM argument - you say don't run SFM because it takes up 5 slots, but if you run Geist, it takes up 4, plus a slot for Jitte in the board. I've been very happy with the SFM package because it is a 2-drop and it shores up the bad match-ups like Aggro- having access to a Jitte or Batterskull game 1 is just nuts.

What was the Cavern of Souls for in the board? How has Geist worked out? I found that against the Aggro match-ups, she wasn't pulling her weight.

Here's my current list:
Lands (19)
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou

Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Stoneforge Mystic

Spells (27)
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard (15)
4 Force of Will
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Envelop
2 Thoughtseize
3 Lingering Souls
1 Disfigure
1 Vendilion Clique


I've been playing against a lot of BUG and Aggro decks, so the 4 STPs reflects that. If I were playing against more combo, that number would be less.

Lingering Souls has been awesome. I'm considering putting one in place of the Liliana in the main deck. The Liliana is there as an extra sac effect and also to somewhat help the mid-range/control match-ups. I've also run V. Clique in the spot.

The Disfigure in the board is an answer to first-turn opposing Deathrites. Deathrite has become such a problem that we need an answer if they play one on turn 1. I think Disfigure is the best card for this and I've also considered running it main, but 5 dedicated removal slots is just so many dead cards vs. a creature-less deck (although every deck I've played lately has had creatures.) I've also considered the 4th Abrupt Decay in the board, but mainly for match-ups like Enchantress and other random decks where the extra non-creature permanent removal is helpful. Finally, I considered a 2nd Liliana in the board. Not sure if I like her or Disfigure in that spot. It depends on how many Deathrites I think I'll be seeing.

Muxi
12-20-2012, 05:46 AM
Well thank you. I have to say that this list was a blast to play. Every opening hand and every Ponder looks awesome! After Round 1, I never dropped a single game, even against Dredge somehow..
Yeah well the thing with SFM is, that you spend 4 mana and two turns to attack in the third turn, plus any removal sets you at least two additional turns back. That's perfectly fine, if you don't rely on that tempo, but for me, these 4 lifelink damage are not compareble to the 6/2 Shroud man, who just wins by itself.

But that's maybe because I am the total Geist player. I don't board it out against Aggro, I even keep some of them in against most Combo decks. It's the most common way to win the game in this list and basicly every other list I played the last year.

With the Lingering Souls I agree with you. It's the best card in the SB but it belongs there. RUG will never board in Sulfur for Game 2 and against Combo it is the worst you can ever do. Plus, it doesn't support the tempo plan in any way.

For the opposing Deathrites, I never found them that oppressing..either I keep them in check with my own or I just play Geist and smash them to death. It's just a 1/2 in the end when it comes to blocking. So I don't think that you need the Disfigure. The forth Decay is the best Removal you can have in the board. Not only is it a roleplayer against CB and RUG, but it's your MVP against Maverick. You can handle either Jitte or Choke besides the creatures, if they ever seem to be a problem..

The Cavern was awesome and I considered even a second one. It is for the MUs where you want additional lands, but also your Geist not countered. This is mainly RUG and CB decks, but also other Delver lists like the tempo BUG one. It's fine also against Show and Tell because with the Clique you can let the Sorcery resolve and don't have to fear that they counter the Clique (only viable if you know that they have only one fatty via previous discard).
The biggest problem with the RUG MU is your manabase, so you want an additional land, but I wanted not just another Fetch but a utility one. I thought about Karakas but decided against it. Maybe this is the right call and maybe both are correct..

As for now, I certainly see the point of going more controllish with the SFM and what not. But then, why not go even bigger and then we are at Spagnolos list and this is - as posted previously - a completely different deck, which starts for me by cutting Geist.

.Ix
12-20-2012, 03:00 PM
Nick's list: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51628 does in fact run 13 planeswalkers if you count the 4 Jaces, 1 Elspeth, 4 Deathrites, 3 GSZ's, and 1 big Garruk in the board.


I meant 4 Jace 1 Elspeth 4 Deathrite 4 KOTR. Now that you mention it, GSZ might as well count.

Water_Wizard
12-20-2012, 03:32 PM
Well thank you. I have to say that this list was a blast to play. Every opening hand and every Ponder looks awesome! After Round 1, I never dropped a single game, even against Dredge somehow..

As for now, I certainly see the point of going more controllish with the SFM and what not. But then, why not go even bigger and then we are at Spagnolos list and this is - as posted previously - a completely different deck, which starts for me by cutting Geist.

You're welcome!

Geist is amazing on a clear board- he's the best creature I could ask for and I would happily play him on a clear board or a board with a 1/2 Deathrite Shaman, etc. In testing, I ran into a number of matches like Goblins, BUG, or Maverick where they would have a Mogg War Marshall + token, a Tarmogofy, or a Thalia in play and that just made Geist look silly. Geist is a lot better on the play than on the draw, because you can keep your opponent playing reactively. However, vs. decks that land threats, I ran into too many situations where I couldn't attack with Geist because it just would have been a -4 plus a dead Geist. The game that made me decide to take Geist out was when my Maverick opponent ran Maze of Ith. I was helpless.

In a combo/control meta, I can see Geist being very good. In a meta where players want to win through the combat phase, I like SFM or KotR or Goyf #4. Something bigger that can hold its own during combat.

You have a good point about SFM taking 2 turns and 4 mana. It is an anti-tempo move. I'll keep testing with this slot. KotR might be alright, but then we should run the 'big' list like Nick Spagnolos's list. Access to Batterskull vs. Zombardment, Aggro, and decks with heavy removal (when we can just keep replaying 'Skull) has been huge. With Delver and Deathrite being 'must answer' threats, I've found that my opponents oftentimes have used their removal by the time I play SFM.

RE: Opposing Deathrites- this has been a problem for me. I'm still not sure the Disfigure in the board is correct, I actually changed it to a Path to Exile. However, if your opponent goes T1 Deathrite, and you go T1 Deathrite, then they can use their Deathrite to counter your Deathrite - you target a land and they target the same land and you can't gain any mana. It's a dirty trick, but it stunts your mana development.

There are very few first turn creatures that I would FOW, but Deathrite and Lackey are two of them that I will FOW on site.

Water_Wizard
12-20-2012, 03:35 PM
I meant 4 Jace 1 Elspeth 4 Deathrite 4 KOTR. Now that you mention it, GSZ might as well count.

Yes, then I guess we have 17 planeswalkers! Oh my ;)

PS - I wonder when Linvala becomes a suitable tech card to shut down Deathrite? I've considered running it - I think it fits well in Nick Spagnolos's build. However, maybe by the time Linvala comes into play, the Deathrite damage has already been done? Linvala survives Abrupt Decay, so that's worth a mention.

Muxi
01-01-2013, 02:19 PM
So, there was another JK Tournament, the largest eternal ones in Germany, this weekend. It was won by Guillaume Perbet with Junk, the perfekt metacall to a Field full of BUG and other Midrange stuff.

http://www.abload.de/img/metagame_legacy23scx.png

I played the Death Rite deck again, piloting it to a 6-2, just enough for the T16.

If you are interested, my current decklist looks like this (beside two slots I already changed, I played this list at the JK):

Maindeck:
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
3x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
3x Tundra

4x Delver of Secrets
4x Deathrite Shaman
2x Tarmogoyf
1x Snapcaster Mage
4x Geist of Saint Traft

1x Sylvan Library
4x Brainstorm
3x Swords to Plowshares
3x Daze
4x Abrupt Decay
2x Force of Will
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Thoughtseize
1x Unearth
4x Ponder

Sideboard:
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Karakas
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Umezawa’s Jitte
1x Spell Pierce
2x Envelop
1x Golgari Charm
1x Force of Will
1x Thoughtseize
3x Lingering Souls

My opponents played BUG, BUG, Reanimator, Miracles, Stoneblade, Junk, Jund, ANT.
I never had any problems with the BUG deck except for an early Confidant with protection. The Deathrites were pretty useless for my opponents in the face of my own ones and the Geist (also, the Library is so amazing, I don't know why the BUG lists were cutting it)
The Reanimator was very mean in playing only Exhume and Show and Tell as reanimate spells, but I guess sometimes you just lose to that.
Jund is a new threat in a BUG dominated meta because of the Punishing Grove, but again, this does not solve their Geist problem.

For additional informations about this tournament - like T8 decklists - you can go to:
http://pmtg-forum.de/wbb2/thread.php?threadid=7964&threadview=0&hilight=&hilightuser=0&page=1

Again, for any questions, I will gladly help ;)


PS: I still don't think the Deathrite is the real problem in the BUG MU, so Linvala doesn't look that great. It is a roleplayer, but what kills you is the Confidant or the Delver. But going for a threat that avoids the Decay is the way I went as well - see Jace.

Water_Wizard
01-02-2013, 03:19 AM
Thanks for the update.

I've been running the following list, with very good results - I think I'm 5-1 in MTGO 2-mans. I lost last night to BUG Tempo, getting him to low life both games and then losing to Wasteland, Jitte, and Shardless Agent :(

Here's my list:
4 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize

4 Daze
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

Sideboard
1 Envelop
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
3 Lingering Souls
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Perish
4 Force of Will
1 Engineered Explosives

In the main deck, the V. Clique spot is the 'flex spot.' I've tried running Liliana and L. Souls in that spot.

I've also considered running 4 Dark Confidants. I would cut 3 SFM plus Batterskull.

I recently added Maelstrom Pulse and Perish to the sideboard. Pulse is a catch-all, and works against cards like Jace. Perish may seem a bit strange in a deck that runs 7 green creatures, but it stops Knight of the Reliquary, Scavenging Ooze, and opposing Tarmogoyfs (all creatures that have given me trouble in the past.)

Water_Wizard
01-02-2013, 03:21 AM
For additional informations about this tournament - like T8 decklists - you can go to:
http://pmtg-forum.de/wbb2/thread.php?threadid=7964&threadview=0&hilight=&hilightuser=0&page=1


Does this link include deck lists? I couldn't find them.

Muxi
01-02-2013, 08:01 AM
Yes there are, but pretty much on the bottom. You have to scroll through all the pairings and standings, which were posted before the T8 results.

I thought about a Perish too, but not because of opposing Goyfs - with 7 maindeck removal plus my own ones I never had a problem - but for Mongoose.
What you may want to consider is, that I changed one Thoughtseize to a third Inquisition. The lifeloss now really matters in a world full of Delver and Deathrites. Also, your spellcount is relatively low, does your Delver keep the work up?
Plus, the additional land in the SB is really good, you should try it out against BUG and RUG. Maybe the Karakas doesn't work that well without Geist, but maybe there is another utility land to consider besides Cavern of Souls? Although a friend of mine played my old list in the same event and he said, the Cavern was amazing, killing CB on its own when drawn.
Are there really enough targets for the Pulse to be relevant, which doesn't get affected by Decay? Sure, Batterskull and Jace are pretty nasty but I found myself being able to handle them some other way - mostly with Daze, Clique or Force.

Water_Wizard
01-02-2013, 02:35 PM
Yes there are, but pretty much on the bottom. You have to scroll through all the pairings and standings, which were posted before the T8 results.

Thank you. I found them.



I thought about a Perish too, but not because of opposing Goyfs - with 7 maindeck removal plus my own ones I never had a problem - but for Mongoose.

Very good point. Also a benefit.



What you may want to consider is, that I changed one Thoughtseize to a third Inquisition. The lifeloss now really matters in a world full of Delver and Deathrites.

I run two main deck sources of life gain - Jitte and Batterskull, so the life loss has not been as relevant.


Also, your spellcount is relatively low, does your Delver keep the work up?

You run 25 instants/sorceries, I run 23. With 4 Brainstorms and 4 Ponders, plus a little bit of luck off of the top of my deck, it really hasn't been an issue. In post-board games vs. combo decks (the times that I really want Delver to flip the quickest), my instant / sorcery count goes up to 28, sometimes 29, and that has been more than enough.



Plus, the additional land in the SB is really good, you should try it out against BUG and RUG. Maybe the Karakas doesn't work that well without Geist, but maybe there is another utility land to consider besides Cavern of Souls? Although a friend of mine played my old list in the same event and he said, the Cavern was amazing, killing CB on its own when drawn.

What does he name with Cavern? Spirit or Cleric? None of the deck's creatures share creature types, besides 'Wizard' with Delver and Clique. I don't like Cavern because it shuts off so many of our instants and sorceries. Is CB lock relevant when we run Abrupt Decay?

I would like to run another land, but I can't find one that I like. Gemstone Mine, City of Brass, Forbidden Orchard, and Undiscovered Paradise all have their downsides. I started running Scrubland and Bayou to combat Wasteland. I've considered running a Savannah. I would run Life from the Loam before a 20th land.

I do miss the lack of Wasteland in this deck. Opposing Karakas, Academy Ruins, and Riptide Laboratory have been difficult to deal with over long games.


Are there really enough targets for the Pulse to be relevant, which doesn't get affected by Decay? Sure, Batterskull and Jace are pretty nasty but I found myself being able to handle them some other way - mostly with Daze, Clique or Force.

Good points. Pulse is a nice catch-all vs. a ton of random stuff, like Lingering Soul's tokens, Wild Growth's (enchantress), Entreat Tokens, etc. I ran a 4th Abrupt Decay in that slot, but decided to change it to handle some 4+ permanents / multiple copies. Pulse and Perish are the 14th and 15th cards I added to the sideboard, so they are the most likely to be replaced.

De4thNightm4re
01-03-2013, 12:35 AM
Muxi.....

Did the 2x FOW main deck really help out, or do you think those 2 slots could be used for something different? (Maybe the 4th Daze, STP, Stifle, 1 more Unearth, Lingering? etc?) I know FOW is amazing in every way, but running 2 main just seems a little low....unless thats the new tech. I was just curious if your match ups really needed the 2x FOW or would you have wanted something different in its place?

Muxi
01-03-2013, 10:51 AM
So maybe your own Wasteland is a possibility for a SB slot, so that you can go up to the 20th land but also have an answer to some problems like Maze? I am pretty comfortable with the Karakas, but I run the Geist so it serves multiple services.

I agree with you on the Equipment, so maybe you even want the third Thoughtseize for things that you now fight with the Pulse. Then you free uo one additional slot in the SB. For opposing Souls tokens I now run the Charm, which is an allstar against Junk and Maverick and fights Supreme Verdicts as well. Maybe you want to consider it, if these are a problem.

For the Forces: First to say, I am not sure in any way of these slots. But I want to have some game preboard against the unfair decks and this is just the best card for that. Sure, it's not the best thing to have in the midrange MUs, but it is not the worst. If you can hold board advantage just for one turn, then the whole game turns from this back and forth to a matchup in which the opponent is always on his backfoot.
So to answer your question, I really liked the two and won't change it in near future. I don't think you can ever run the full playset in this meta. If you want to give up your combo matchup in the main, then I suggest changing the slots to the forth Daze and the second Unearth (in the Geist build) or probably either a Liliana or a Lingering Souls (in the SFM build).

anwei
01-04-2013, 01:56 AM
In case anyone is interested in this and missed it, Caleb Durward wrote an article about 4-color Thresh here (http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-the-return-of-4-color-thresh/).

He has a (tested, tuned) BUG+R deck with 3 of each U/x dual and 8 fetches (0 Waste) that looks like Bug Tempo + Bolt (instead of discard), and a (starting point, untested) BUG+W deck with Meddling Mage and Gitaxian Probe. Both are interesting. Check it out.

Water_Wizard
01-05-2013, 02:43 PM
Thanks for the link and comments.

Caleb's article is good. In the first comment at the bottom, he includes the list that he would run if he played at GP Denver today. Here it is:

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta.
2 [R] Volcanic Island.
3 [U] Tropical Island.
3 [R] Underground Sea.
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn.
4 [JGC] Flooded Strand.

// Creatures
3 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman.
3 [OD] Nimble Mongoose.
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets.
3 [FUT] Tarmogoyf.

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm.
3 [RTR] Abrupt Decay.
4 [PD2] Lightning Bolt.
4 [NE] Daze.
4 [AL] Force of Will.
4 [MPR] Ponder.
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor.
3 [DKA] Thought Scour.
1 [R] Counterspell.

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [M10] Pithing Needle.
SB: 2 [7E] Engineered Plague.
SB: 1 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb.
SB: 4 [B] Red Elemental Blast.
SB: 1 [MBS] Go for the Throat.
SB: 2 [6E] Dread of Night.
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt.
SB: 1 [NPH] Dismember.
SB: 1 [JGC] Vendilion Clique.

I'm surprised Caleb hasn't tried Lingering Souls in his W version of the deck. Lingering Souls is an MVP.

It's also interesting how proven players like Caleb can run 3 DRS along with 3 Nimble Mongoose and not get blasted for it. I was running a deck with 4 DRS and 4 Nimble Mongoose and people kept saying 'you can't run Nimble and DRS in the same list' and 'DRS is an automatic 4-of.' I guess the Though Scours help to combat that.

SirTylerGalt
01-05-2013, 10:22 PM
Thanks for the link and comments.

Caleb's article is good. In the first comment at the bottom, he includes the list that he would run if he played at GP Denver today. Here it is:

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta.
2 [R] Volcanic Island.
3 [U] Tropical Island.
3 [R] Underground Sea.
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn.
4 [JGC] Flooded Strand.

// Creatures
3 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman.
3 [OD] Nimble Mongoose.
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets.
3 [FUT] Tarmogoyf.

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm.
3 [RTR] Abrupt Decay.
4 [PD2] Lightning Bolt.
4 [NE] Daze.
4 [AL] Force of Will.
4 [MPR] Ponder.
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor.
3 [DKA] Thought Scour.
1 [R] Counterspell.

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [M10] Pithing Needle.
SB: 2 [7E] Engineered Plague.
SB: 1 [SOM] Nihil Spellbomb.
SB: 4 [B] Red Elemental Blast.
SB: 1 [MBS] Go for the Throat.
SB: 2 [6E] Dread of Night.
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt.
SB: 1 [NPH] Dismember.
SB: 1 [JGC] Vendilion Clique.

I'm surprised Caleb hasn't tried Lingering Souls in his W version of the deck. Lingering Souls is an MVP.

It's also interesting how proven players like Caleb can run 3 DRS along with 3 Nimble Mongoose and not get blasted for it. I was running a deck with 4 DRS and 4 Nimble Mongoose and people kept saying 'you can't run Nimble and DRS in the same list' and 'DRS is an automatic 4-of.' I guess the Though Scours help to combat that.

Seems like a BUG deck with a red splash for lightning bolt and REB in the sideboard.

I'd want to play Stifle in that deck, to protect my dual lands from Wasteland, cripple my opponent's manabase, and Stifle Miracle / Ancestral Vision / Goblins... Caleb explains in the article that it conflicts with Deathrite Shaman, but I still want to fit it in.

Water_Wizard
01-07-2013, 05:31 PM
Seems like a BUG deck with a red splash for lightning bolt and REB in the sideboard.

I'd want to play Stifle in that deck, to protect my dual lands from Wasteland, cripple my opponent's manabase, and Stifle Miracle / Ancestral Vision / Goblins... Caleb explains in the article that it conflicts with Deathrite Shaman, but I still want to fit it in.

Caleb also doesn't run and discard. The main reason Stifle isn't in my list is because it conflicts with Deathrite, Thoughseize, and Inquisition of Kozilek. Does anyone know how Caleb did in the GP?

Muxi and I recommend the W splash over the R splash. Lingering Souls and Swords to Plowshares are good.

.Ix
01-12-2013, 11:14 AM
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=9909&iddeck=72251

4c Deathrite at first place out of 53 players. Looks good to me. Definitely something I would play.

Water_Wizard
01-18-2013, 04:19 PM
http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=9909&iddeck=72251

4c Deathrite at first place out of 53 players. Looks good to me. Definitely something I would play.

This is a very interesting mix - thanks for sharing!

.Ix
01-20-2013, 03:28 AM
This is a very interesting mix - thanks for sharing!

Tried this deck with +3 Knight minus geist and intuition, and i did terribly against merfolk and hexproof aggro. Dealing with only one threat at a time isnt good enough against these decks. The deck felt great, however. Resolving a turn 1 deathrite against reanimator is too good.

mike1987
01-25-2013, 12:36 PM
What do you guys think of this deck? seems quite fun

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=10958

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Stoneforge Mystic
Creatures [16]
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lingering Souls
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Spells [21]
2 Bayou
2 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

Water_Wizard
01-25-2013, 05:33 PM
What do you guys think of this deck? seems quite fun

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=10958

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Stoneforge Mystic
Creatures [16]
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lingering Souls
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Spells [21]
2 Bayou
2 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

There are a few 'issues' I see with this deck, some of which Conley discusses in his article.

The first, and most glaring, is the life loss. Confidant, Thoughseize, Fetch... oww! That hurts!

Second, is the mana. You want to hit BB for Hymn and Liliana, UU for Jace, W for SFM and LS, and G for Abrupt Decay. Plus, the deck is trying to pack 4 Wastelands?

Third, only 2 SFM? Why run SFM without Batterskull? Cut the Dark Confidants, up the SFM count, add Batterskull, add Ponder.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

This archtype is going in two directions right now. There is the tempo version - light on land, lower mana curve, more cantrips, and there is the control version. I think that the tempo version is where you want to be. You want to win the game by turn 10. The control version is nice, you have the perfect toolbox to fit any situation, but I don't feel that Conley's list does well in a long game and I feel that it has too much mana unreliability to consistently do well in the shorter games.

NidStyles
01-25-2013, 09:31 PM
Yeah, I just tried running that list posted in post #49 Water_Wizard. On MODO that is, against a good friend. Played 5 matches went 1-4 against RUG Delver with Stifle and Chain Lightning.

I don't think this archetype belongs here. It needs more work before it's ready IMO.

Water_Wizard
01-26-2013, 04:17 AM
Yeah, I just tried running that list posted in post #49 Water_Wizard. On MODO that is, against a good friend. Played 5 matches went 1-4 against RUG Delver with Stifle and Chain Lightning.

I don't think this archetype belongs here. It needs more work before it's ready IMO.

Run the list in post #42 or the list in the opening post if you like tempo. Run the list in post #52 if you like mid-range.

Caleb's list is tuned to a combo/control heavy meta, thus, it is going to do poorly against tempo. Caleb's list runs R, you want W.

I've run the list in post #42 on MODO and done well. Admittedly, mana-screw is the deck's biggest weakness (and game 1 against combo because the deck does not pack any main deck FOW.). However, run the list in #42, not #49. You want W, not R, in the MODO environment.

White is so much better than red vs. tempo because it opens up SFM, Lingering Souls, and STP. If you cast and flashback a Lingering Souls vs. RUG, your chances of winning improve dramatically.

mini1337s
02-02-2013, 02:18 PM
So what happened here... did this deck just show up for a month and die?

NidStyles
02-09-2013, 09:57 PM
So what happened here... did this deck just show up for a month and die?

Yeah that is what I am thinking, it's mana-base is beyond shaky. Experienced Legacy players know how to attack it just as easily as the old 4-color Thresh decks.

I have been trying this deck and for the life of me I can not find a way to beat Enchantress with any of these lists. This deck is just plain cold dead to any decent Enchantress draw.

IL_casual
02-09-2013, 10:32 PM
I have been trying this deck and for the life of me I can not find a way to beat Enchantress with any of these lists. This deck is just plain cold dead to any decent Enchantress draw.[/QUOTE]

Dont let this deck die. Im a maverick player and I just turned my deck into the spagnolo bugw maverick. Is the overall 4 color theme too clunky to be able to sustain its top tier status?
Btw... i was thinking...whats the kotr for in the spagnolo list? Isnt an sfm package better for the control them?

NidStyles
02-10-2013, 09:31 PM
Dont let this deck die. Im a maverick player and I just turned my deck into the spagnolo bugw maverick. Is the overall 4 color theme too clunky to be able to sustain its top tier status?
Btw... i was thinking...whats the kotr for in the spagnolo list? Isnt an sfm package better for the control them?

I'm not letting it, the format is killing it. If the deck can't survive in the format then it deserves to die. Right now everyone is still trying to figure out how to cope with BBE and Jund. Jund is a damn nightmare IMO. I put away my CAB Jace list finally because of BBE. IMO Cascade is the most broken mechanic that is legal in Legacy today. Storm is beatable, but Jund is strong against everything that doesn't play White essentially.

If you want to win with a green deck in Legacy, play Jund/Junk. There are no other green decks worth playing IMO. Not even Elves is good enough right now. If you want to win with Blue, it's either one of the Tempo decks with Stifle and Wasteland or Miracles. Nothing else really has good game against Jund right now. This is if you want to win consistently, otherwise play whatever you want.

IL_casual
02-10-2013, 11:33 PM
I'm not letting it, the format is killing it. If the deck can't survive in the format then it deserves to die. Right now everyone is still trying to figure out how to cope with BBE and Jund. Jund is a damn nightmare IMO. I put away my CAB Jace list finally because of BBE. IMO Cascade is the most broken mechanic that is legal in Legacy today. Storm is beatable, but Jund is strong against everything that doesn't play White essentially.

If you want to win with a green deck in Legacy, play Jund/Junk. There are no other green decks worth playing IMO. Not even Elves is good enough right now. If you want to win with Blue, it's either one of the Tempo decks with Stifle and Wasteland or Miracles. Nothing else really has good game against Jund right now. This is if you want to win consistently, otherwise play whatever you want.

What happened with jund that made it into the powerhouse that is now? Abrupt decays and shamans?
Most of the players in my meta still use the bug version and jund still hasnt impacted our meta yet.
Id like to ask why they even bothered trying on a 4 color deck when they know they are more vulnerable to mona screws?

NidStyles
02-11-2013, 05:14 PM
What happened with jund that made it into the powerhouse that is now? Abrupt decays and shamans?
Most of the players in my meta still use the bug version and jund still hasnt impacted our meta yet.
Id like to ask why they even bothered trying on a 4 color deck when they know they are more vulnerable to mona screws?

People actually started working on it, that's what happened. The potential was always there, the addition of new tools really helped put it over the top. I would say primarily Deathrite Shaman.


4-colors is just one of those it seems like it would be really good until your mana-base gets stomped on. If the Meta looks like Wasteland and Stifle will not be predominant, I would run 4-colors. Everyone is trying to fight Jund and Junk right now, so that means Wasteland and Stifle are really good right now.

IL_casual
02-17-2013, 10:19 AM
are there any new updates regarding 4 color deathrite? I adjusted my deck by adding 4 noble heirarchs to the deck so i have 8 mana dorks to the esperblade setup so even if i get manascrwwed by wastelands..i can still generate mana.

Water_Wizard
02-20-2013, 02:56 AM
Yeah that is what I am thinking, it's mana-base is beyond shaky. Experienced Legacy players know how to attack it just as easily as the old 4-color Thresh decks.

I have been trying this deck and for the life of me I can not find a way to beat Enchantress with any of these lists. This deck is just plain cold dead to any decent Enchantress draw.

How often do you play against Enchantress? Bring in your counter magic, bring in your Engineered Explosives and Pulse, side out your targeted removal. I beat Enchantress a fair amount. We have to hit an early clock. Bring in Engineered Plague and name "Druid." I pack Surgicals because if you can remove either of their draw engines, you are way ahead.


are there any new updates regarding 4 color deathrite? I adjusted my deck by adding 4 noble heirarchs to the deck so i have 8 mana dorks to the esperblade setup so even if i get manascrwwed by wastelands..i can still generate mana.

I have a 3-month old daughter (my first). I'm in my final semester of law school. I started playing less Magic. When I was playing, I played Esper. I haven't been keeping up with the boards or play-testing. The deck is still viable, but it thrives in a combo/control environment. As long as other aggro and mid-range decks, like Jund, are dominant, this deck is going to struggle.

Spanno's version was tuned for a very specific meta, the SCG Invitational. If you look at those lists, there are lots of planeswalkers. The SCG Invitational meta is atypical to what is expected at other Legacy tournaments.

IL_casual
02-23-2013, 11:08 AM
Placed 3rd on our lsg. It seems that as long as you have your mana in check or deathrite is in play vs the wasteland decks, youre ok.heres my decklist.

4 deathrite shaman
4 noble heirarch
4 brainstorm
3 lingering souls
2 cabal therapy(awesome synergy with l.souls)
2 inquisition to kozilek.
4 stoneforge mystic
1 batterskull
1 sofaf
1 jitte
1 sylvan library
1 life from the loam
3 swords to plowshares
3 abrupt decay
3 jace the mind sculptor

3 wasteland
3 savannah
1 scrubland
2 underground sea
2 bayou
2 tropical island
3 windswept
1 polluted delta
1 marsh flats
4 verdant catacombs
1 karakas

Sb
3 spell pierce
2 inquisition kozilek
1 cabal therapy
3 engineered plague
1 circle of protection red
1 swords to plowshares
1 nihil spellbomb
2 surgical extraction
1 engineered explosives

Comments on my deck would be much appreciated. Thanks!!!

Water_Wizard
02-27-2013, 07:50 AM
Comments on your deck:
I would probably drop to 3 SFM and/or move 1 equipment to the sideboard.

Have you considered running Intuition? LftL, Lingering Souls, Cabal Therapy - you have lots of options. It is also good with Deathrite. You can also do Academy Ruins / EE / LftL, but I think that Academy is way too cute in a 4c deck.

How do you like Noble Hierarch?

How do you find your singleton COP: Red in your sideboard? Luck?

Do you miss Ponder?

IL_casual
02-27-2013, 11:49 AM
Comments on your deck:
I would probably drop to 3 SFM and/or move 1 equipment to the sideboard.

Have you considered running Intuition? LftL, Lingering Souls, Cabal Therapy - you have lots of options. It is also good with Deathrite. You can also do Academy Ruins / EE / LftL, but I think that Academy is way too cute in a 4c deck.

How do you like Noble Hierarch?

How do you find your singleton COP: Red in your sideboard? Luck?

Do you miss Ponder?

I plan on getting 1 snapcast or intuition for the mb and move the sofaf to the sb. I thought about dropping the sfm to 3 but after seeing most esperblade decks MB the sfm set, i opted to keep the set mb for faster access to jitte or batterskull.

Noble heirarch is great! This enables me to cast a t2 lingering soul for (cabal fodder/jace defender). I didnt have a game where i boarded out the nobles. Its either board out the removals for the combo decks or board out the disruption for the aggro.

My only loss was to a 12pt price of progress in g2 r1 and another 10 hit price of progress + fireblast for lethal. I really have a hard time fighting off those pesky burn decks, also a big problem for the bug decks.

Im thinking of adding 2 enlightened tutors to help me fetch my enchantments faster but i realized id rather add 1 more cop red if the meta turns into red burn.

I think that as long as the deck holds a steady supply of mana then its able to face a large variety of decks even at game 1.

Thoughts?")

Water_Wizard
02-28-2013, 04:30 AM
I think that this deck does very well against combo and control. It does not do so well against mid-range decks like Jund.

What kind of decks did you play against? Burn and what else?

If you are playing against Price of Progress, you should probably hold back your lands and only play 2-3 non-basics on the board. You can use your Wastelands to destroy your own lands if a Price to Progress is cast. Rely on your mana dorks to power you through the game.

Blue Elemental Blast / Hydroblast might be worth a shot. These cards can also help against goblins and certain types of storm.

Geist of St. Traft is very good vs. control.

NidStyles
03-02-2013, 08:41 AM
I did one better, I stopped playing this deck. It's too shakey and unreliable.


It's bad enough that there isn't a real way to solve the Jund Matchup in the format, I don't want to have to deal with playing a bad deck as well.

IL_casual
03-02-2013, 11:57 AM
I think that this deck does very well against combo and control. It does not do so well against mid-range decks like Jund.

What kind of decks did you play against? Burn and what else?

If you are playing against Price of Progress, you should probably hold back your lands and only play 2-3 non-basics on the board. You can use your Wastelands to destroy your own lands if a Price to Progress is cast. Rely on your mana dorks to power you through the game.

Blue Elemental Blast / Hydroblast might be worth a shot. These cards can also help against goblins and certain types of storm.

Geist of St. Traft is very good vs. control.

I fought a show and tell deck( discard and sb spell pierces can really slow him down.) Altho I did lost game 3 on a turn 1 omniscience(that sucks).

Fighting goblins is tricky game 1 because you really have to manage your life until lingering souls and batterskull can come online.by game 2, unless they prepare for an engineered plague, they could be in for a tough game 2.

High tide(no candles) : game :epic turn 1 win for me! Cabal therapy naming cabal...got 1 from his hand. Follow that up with a surgical extraction naming high tide...GG!

Death and taxes: This one was a pretty hard matchup since most of his cards can be really" "taxing". Game 1 he managed to land thalia and suppression field. I really couldnt do much after that since even saccing my fetches need 2 mana to activate.
Game 2: engineered plague saved the day again. By naming humans, the card literally locked him coz most of his utility creatures just die upon entering play.

I got myself an intuition earlier and youre right, it really does open up a lot of options.. loam/cabal therapy/lingering soul just wins!!!

Water_Wizard
03-03-2013, 02:58 PM
I got myself an intuition earlier and youre right, it really does open up a lot of options.. loam/cabal therapy/lingering soul just wins!!!

Good! I'm glad that's working out for you.

SBGpinas
03-14-2013, 03:54 AM
Jasper Grimmer himself visited our country and won a 68-player event last March 3, 2013 using this deck:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10328&iddeck=75281

Waikiki
03-14-2013, 05:42 AM
Whats the correct list he played?

SBGpinas
03-14-2013, 06:07 AM
Whats the correct list he played?

It seems like he was, indeed, playing with 63 cards in his main deck.

Another source for decklists points to that fact:

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=4540

I will have to do some digging if this was intentional, or a mistake on the TO's end.

Waikiki
03-14-2013, 01:36 PM
I can't imagine it was intentionally. There has to be some mistake with entering the decklist. Hope you can find out ;)

anwei
03-14-2013, 02:56 PM
Searched the name on TC decks and the other Legacy lists are all 60 - I'm willing to bet there was a miser's Dimir Charm, accidentally entered as "4."

SBGpinas
03-14-2013, 11:03 PM
Checked the deck list source and confirmed with the TO that he just copied what was written down in the registered list. There really were 63 cards in the list registered

Now, unless Jasper were to confirm otherwise, I would say it's as accurate as can be as far as his deck list is concerned.

Mark Sun
03-15-2013, 12:08 AM
I postulated that there was some type of repetition mistake, so I looked for the only 3 cards that matched the maindeck and sideboard. I arrived at cutting 2 Lingering Souls and 1 Thoughtseize to make it a 60-card maindeck.

Played a tuned version of it tonight locally, with a changed sideboard. Not an easy 4-0, but certainly felt good while playing it as it keeps opponents guessing. 2-1 Sneak and Show, 2-1 UWr Miracles, 2-0 Esperblade-thing, 2-0 RUG Delver.

ryn ball_2
03-15-2013, 02:15 AM
I talked to jasper after the legacy event and i believed this was saturday mar 9 at R4 modern PTQ at our country (philippines) I said I want to model his 4C shaman deck and asked for few questions about it and 1 question i asked was the 4 dimir charm, "how's the 4 dimir charm?" he replied "I only used 1 and i can't say much info about it cuz i only drew it once in a 7-rounder swiss". From the said statement I believe from his intention he wanted to play 1 copy of dimir charm but maybe due to what is written and verified by the TO and judge (it is for sure that deck check was executed before the top 8 matches) he unintentionally ran extra 3 copies of it and from my point of view he doesn't check well the addition of dimir charms cuz I saw him bought the charms and sleeved them before the R1 of swiss began.

But it is better that jasper himself (muxi here at the source) discuss his deck. :smile:

@SBGpinas: John Say? the one who piloted UG turbo eldrazi? I was guessing :smile:

SBGpinas
03-20-2013, 10:35 AM
I talked to jasper after the legacy event and i believed this was saturday mar 9 at R4 modern PTQ at our country (philippines) I said I want to model his 4C shaman deck and asked for few questions about it and 1 question i asked was the 4 dimir charm, "how's the 4 dimir charm?" he replied "I only used 1 and i can't say much info about it cuz i only drew it once in a 7-rounder swiss". From the said statement I believe from his intention he wanted to play 1 copy of dimir charm but maybe due to what is written and verified by the TO and judge (it is for sure that deck check was executed before the top 8 matches) he unintentionally ran extra 3 copies of it and from my point of view he doesn't check well the addition of dimir charms cuz I saw him bought the charms and sleeved them before the R1 of swiss began.

But it is better that jasper himself (muxi here at the source) discuss his deck. :smile:

@SBGpinas: John Say? the one who piloted UG turbo eldrazi? I was guessing :smile:

Yep that's me... if I may ask, who are you?

Sorry for the derail, but yes, we have confirmation that it was a clerical error. The list only contains 1 Dimir Charm.

kabards
03-21-2013, 09:52 AM
Yep that's me... if I may ask, who are you?

Sorry for the derail, but yes, we have confirmation that it was a clerical error. The list only contains 1 Dimir Charm.

he was byron a teammate of mine from TJB :cool:

Patrunkenphat7
04-03-2013, 12:16 AM
This is my "4-color Deathrite" deck. I have been playing it for about a month, and it has been doing very well. It's more similar to Esper, but there are some important green cards in the SB. This deck can beat any matchup. I am playing it at the Invitational this weekend and the Legacy Open if I don't top 8. Maybe it will do well :smile:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
2 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
1 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Wasteland
SB
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of War and Peace
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
2 Disfigure
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Envelop
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Detention Sphere

Water_Wizard
04-03-2013, 03:38 AM
Here's another list that placed at SCG Kansas City on 24MAR13 - basically Jasper's list with a few small tweaks: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10473&iddeck=76381



I postulated that there was some type of repetition mistake, so I looked for the only 3 cards that matched the maindeck and sideboard. I arrived at cutting 2 Lingering Souls and 1 Thoughtseize to make it a 60-card maindeck.

Played a tuned version of it tonight locally, with a changed sideboard. Not an easy 4-0, but certainly felt good while playing it as it keeps opponents guessing. 2-1 Sneak and Show, 2-1 UWr Miracles, 2-0 Esperblade-thing, 2-0 RUG Delver.

Mark, how were the 4 Dimir Charms?


Here's a 'bigger' version of the deck, which is closer to an Esper shell (sans countermagic): http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10404&iddeck=75895

Patrunkenphat - this is kind of similar to your deck. Good luck! Let us know how it goes.

Water_Wizard
04-04-2013, 04:53 AM
Here's a Deck Tech covering the above-referenced deck: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_esper_deathblade_wit.html

YamiJoey
04-04-2013, 09:42 AM
Not been playing long (MtG for nearly 2-Years, Legacy for about half that) and I'm going to be looking into the 27 Spells 3 Dimir Charm list that was posted above. The deck looks super tight, and I love the use of Dimir Charm as a ninth, tenth, and eleventh Brainstorm effect, but with the Charm ability to just kill random Creatures or stop some mental Sorcery that is about to wreck you. (From Thoughtseize and Ponder, through GSZ, to Show and Tell.) Between that and the 5 free counterspells, 5 hand attack Spells, and the 9 other forms of card draw (keeping in mind that you can use Clique and Dimir Charm if you're struggling) it should have an excellent G1 against combo compared to many other decks.

A quick question; in this kind of deck, I'm still T1 Thoughtseize over almost any other possible line in 90% of my hands against an unknown deck, right? How important is it to get something like Delver down on the first turn?

Water_Wizard
04-04-2013, 03:12 PM
A quick question; in this kind of deck, I'm still T1 Thoughtseize over almost any other possible line in 90% of my hands against an unknown deck, right? How important is it to get something like Delver down on the first turn?

Good question.

Are you on the play or on the draw?

If I am on the play and I have a Daze, I would drop Delver or Deathrite, because you pretty much know that you can protect it (minus them having a Daze of their own). Delver creates an early clock and acts as a threat that they must answer. Deathrite gives you mana acceleration and is helpful vs. any graveyard based deck. Even without Daze, you've still forced them to play reactively, essentially 'wasting' their first turn removing your threat. You can untap on your 2nd turn, use your discard and Ponder or drop another threat.

If I am on the draw, I would play Thoughtseize (as long as their T1 play didn't give me information to the contrary). Your Thoughtseize can discard their removal and give you information for your T2. Once you see their hand, you know if you are clear to drop your threat. Also, if they have U mana open, your Thoughtseize loses value, because they can Brainstorm in response and hide their best stuff.

Muxi
04-05-2013, 03:01 AM
Ok some quick comments on my side, just to put things right ;)

I played a 60-card deck with just one Dimir Charm. My writing on the 4 is like the philippine 1, but I figured the TO must have worked that out considering the numbers on the other cardnames...I sleeved the Charms, because I perfectsleeve every card..and there was certainly no deckcheck before the T8.

I really like the list of Nicholas Lassen, who placed 9th on the last SCG Opens with the additional Dimir Charm, although this was probably unintentional, considering the confusion here. Maybe you can make the cuts he did, but to miss a Decay is still hurting. The addition of the Souls is to fight Lilianas, which are like the worst thing that can happen to you..with Jund on the fall again it may be considered to drop them completely from the Maindeck again, going back to the original list.

So this is what I wanted this deck to be. No fancy SFM, no stupid Jace action! Just bashing as fast as you can! I killed my TES opponent, which triple discarded me in both games on Turn 4 (without even a Delver).
And considering this, of course you play either a Delver or a Deathrite on Turn 1 before your discard spell! What do you gonna take anyway?..
Turn 1 plays in order:
1. Delver
2. Deathrite
3. Discard
4. Ponder
5. Mulligan (plus, if your hand with 3. doesnt contain one of the other three options or Geist, mulligan as well)

Yep thats basically it. I would like to talk to Nicholas Lassen, if anyone got his contact by any chance? Otherwise good luck to you for next tournaments!

Water_Wizard
04-05-2013, 04:38 AM
Jasper,
Thanks for the info. I've been running your list, except +1 Bayou, -1 Tropical Island (only change).

I have a few questions and comments about your latest build (congrats on the win, btw):

1) Mana-curve - 19 lands, 5 'free' spells, 23 1-drops, 6 2-drops, and 7 3-drops main and 1 land, 2 'free' spells, 3 1-drops, 1 2-drop, 6 3-drops, and 2 4-drops in the sideboard. (total count 20 land, 7 'free' spells, 26 1-drops, 7 2-drops, 13 3-drops, and 2 4-drops). The mana curve skips the 2-drop (all but 1 2-drop card is reactive (Sylvan Library)). You can manufacture the 2-drop by playing 2 1-drops or you can use DRS to accelerate into a 3-drop. Tarmogoyf and SFM fit the 2-drop slot very well. I think SFM is a must if expecting to play against Burn. Tarmogoyf means that I can't run Perish in the sideboard, but if I have Tarmogoyf, Nimble Mongoose doesn't look so bad and Perish is bad with DRS anyway. All the 3-drops scare me because if you get tight on mana, that is a lot of dead cards. However, I'm still testing with your list.

2) What decks do you bring Elspeth in against? Control is the only m/u I can think of. However, with 4 Geist and 4 Lingering Souls, the control match-up already seems pretty good.

YamiJoey
04-05-2013, 11:24 AM
I really like cutting the Gosts for Goyfs, and possibly a Clique, too. It pulls your blue count to 18/19 (depending on what happens with the Clique), so it may not be the wisest choice. I can't really find anything else I would even want at two that is Blue, so it might be best to just leave it as Gost, but I may want to up the land count.

The fact that there are 9 Draw Spells that each let you see far into your deck to cantrip probably makes the 3-drops okay. I've not had a true chance to play it out, and Gost does have the habit of just killing people. I may look into having them in the board when I want to be more aggressive, and could look into cutting something like Dimir Charm and/or Forces for them.

Water_Wizard
04-06-2013, 05:26 AM
Any thoughts on running a 1-of Snapcaster Mage? I like Snapcaster because it adds recursion and it adds value in the late game.

I've been running Muxi's build with the Geists, and so far, so good, but I've also played Geist-favored match-ups, like Miracles. If I play a deck like Jund, I need a Batterskull to give me a fighting chance. However, Geist has been good vs. Miracles, the Mirror, and RUG (other than the fact that it can be Pyroblasted and dies to Rough/Tumble).

YamiJoey
04-06-2013, 07:25 AM
I like Snap a lot here. Drawing an additional card via a Brainstorm effect seems strong. It made Jace good, anyway. I might look into cutting Linger for it. I love Lingering Souls (probably more than anyone else on the planet) but I don't feel it here. It can be sideboarded against things like Jund, Gx ramp, and maybe Stoneblade (if you can find enough to cut) but in the main deck it feels a little clunky. We have no real use for it, it is an answer to cards they may just not have.

EDIT: I'm also looking at maining that Karakas somewhere. It's great against certain decks, and saving Geist and reusing Clique is always fun. It also ups to 20 land, and if Snap makes the cut, then it might help a lot.

Water_Wizard
04-07-2013, 02:40 AM
I like Snap a lot here. Drawing an additional card via a Brainstorm effect seems strong. It made Jace good, anyway. I might look into cutting Linger for it. I love Lingering Souls (probably more than anyone else on the planet) but I don't feel it here. It can be sideboarded against things like Jund, Gx ramp, and maybe Stoneblade (if you can find enough to cut) but in the main deck it feels a little clunky. We have no real use for it, it is an answer to cards they may just not have.

EDIT: I'm also looking at maining that Karakas somewhere. It's great against certain decks, and saving Geist and reusing Clique is always fun. It also ups to 20 land, and if Snap makes the cut, then it might help a lot.

Those are both good observations. I've considered lowering the Geist count to 3, or even 2 with more in the board. Personally, I really like Lingering Souls. It is very good vs. RUG or any deck where you just need to block to buy time. I run 2 main and 2 in the sb. 2 in the sb may be excessive, as you never really want two in hand and it runs the risk of making opposing Surgical effects all the more powerful.

i'm still tweaking. I built one deck with Geist (very similar to Jasper's build) and another with SFM. So far, the Geist build has been doing well enough that I haven't tried the SFM build.

Water_Wizard
04-07-2013, 07:05 AM
I play tested 5 matches with the deck tonight and it runs well. The burn match-up is pretty much miserable. I split vs. Jund- the games I won he drew badly. I beat Enchantress and Ramp-MUD (artifacts with posts and candelabras).

I'm running Jasper's main except +1 Bayou, -1 UGS.

Sideboard -2 Elspeth, -1 V. Clique, +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 STP

I considered running SCM, Jitte, Tarmogoyf, and SFM + equipment. If the meta shifts towards more aggro, SFM + Batterskull is needed. SCM doesn't seem necessary as it is an extra 3-coster. Jitte as a 1-of seems bad, as it opens up artifact hate (without it, the deck has 0 artifacts), although it would open up a removal slot.

YamiJoey
04-07-2013, 08:58 PM
If someone is boarding in Artifact Hate because I run a single Jitte, I think I'm winning that war. What do you bring in? A single Ancient Grudge? That's mostly fine. My card was free, and if you don't have it at the right time it doesn't matter anyway. They might just not draw it, and if they bring in more than one, they have more dead cards in their deck. If I spread my threats over a wide area, then it's making my opponent's life hard. Lingering Souls requires multiple cards, Geist requires non-targeted removal. This leaves Sweepers as your best option. Woops I just dropped Vendilion Clique post Sweeper, now you're dead. My Delver and Geist are coming into the Red Zone, but my Shaman is attacking your Graveyard, using both of them as a resource, and is attacking from at home. The deck has a wide variety of threats acting in different ways. RUG Delver makes guys and turns them sideways. An RiP will shut down 60% of its threats, whilst the Shaman will keep them well under control, and you can deal with Delver in a billion and one ways in this format. We are playing RUG's strategy (minus Bolts) but with a more diverse plan of attacking, making it harder to disrupt.

However, I am kind of against the Jitte for different reasons. It doesn't do anything on its own, and running it alongside SFM will cause a couple of clunky draws where you kind of want to leave up some mana for a Shaman or to protect your Delver/Geist, but instead you have this Squire in your hand rotting away, or this 4-mana Spell that will just leave you wide open to some removal. We were discussing dropping our curve a minute ago, and now you're saying we should put 4-drops in. At that point, we [i]must[/] increase our Land count, and I really don't see where we can do that whilst also making room for these additional cards, and not killing half of the reason this deck even seems strong to me. This is about the only FoW deck that seems like it has a decent MU Vs Jund. (But maybe that's because it's only playing 2, and isn't really a FoW deck. :S)

I will point out that I'm a little tired at this point. I think that what I have said makes sense, but if I'm being an idiot then that's probably fine too and I apologise.

EDIT: Also, I've been looking into Gut Shot. It hits a lot of really relevant cards right now, Delver, Bob, Lavaman, random Elves, Vendilion Clique, Lili when she comes down and edicts. I think it has a lot of power here, especially if Snapcaster Mage does come in. Snap + Gut Shot has been one of my favourite plays in Magic, and doing it again would definitely feel good.

Water_Wizard
04-08-2013, 02:43 AM
I agree with what you say above, Jitte doesn't fit this deck's mana curve and requires creatures on board (basically, a win more), and therefore, should be left out.

Regarding Gut Shot, why not just run StP or PtE? I realize that Gut Shot is 'free,' so that adds so value. Between StP and Abrupt Decay, I feel like I have enough removal (and sometimes too much).

Here is a deck that Gerry T used to win a MTGO daily a week ago: http://decks.mtgoacademy.com/Deck/169307 It's an interesting mix. I'm not sure if he's written about it somewhere or made a video. Apparently, he went in pretty much untested.

YamiJoey
04-08-2013, 09:52 AM
Yeah my nine kill Spells should do the job, hopefully.

EDIT: I've been doing some thinking, and I've come around to cutting a Gost for a Karakas. The one less threat is fine with how fast we can rip through our deck, and the sability gained from having Karakas in the main, protecting our threats, improving MUs Vs various decks, and the additional Land, is very important. The additional slot in the sideboard, seeing as I don't see the point in the fourth Gost in any specific match, allowed me to explore other options. Specifically Intuition.

At first, I decided I didn't like double Elspeth. She's excellent, one of my favourites, but she feels a tad clinky here. She could close out the game, but I don't want to see her too early, and when I do I don't want to throw her back with Brainstorm attempting to find the Lands I need to cast her. She came out, giving me a second space. The first plan was to add Snapcaster Mage and something that would allow us to take either a more aggressive route in G2, or a slower more controlling route. The aggression definitely feels better with 20 Lands, but I decided to try a personal favourite of mine; Intuition. All of the numbers seemed so perfect. We have 3 of plenty of cards, and we wind up with '2 and Snap' if many specific cards in the sideboard. The only problem I'm seeing is that this isn't a 22 Land deck. With some more Lands I'd be comfortable with Perish Perish Snap, untap into a 5-mana Wrath with a 2/1 body. Right now that feels fairly ambitious, but I'd like to try it out. These are the dire situations in a later stage when we may well have found the lands we need.

Muxi
04-12-2013, 07:18 AM
As I stated many times, Geist is your main way to win the game. If you start cutting them, you either destroy or change it drastically. The same with SFM. It just goes in a different direction than an aggressive tempo deck like this.
So, I never had a problem with the curve. You just have so many cantrips and other things to do to use your mana each turn completely - DRS is a pro in helping you in just that.
But I have to agree on the Souls, now they are in the SB again, freeing slots in the main for Dimir Charm and Vendilion Clique.
The Elspeth is there for midrange attrition based wars. She beats Jace, Garruk, Liliana, Bloodbraid and basically every other creature besides Tombstalker. Lingering Souls is also a problem, but therefor you got your own copy. So, Miracles, Stoneblade, Jund, BUG, Junk, Goblins, thats where she comes in..

YamiJoey
04-12-2013, 09:15 AM
I think I'm just playing with the list for something to do now. I'm going to play it as I have it for a while and see if anything changes later on.

Water_Wizard
04-13-2013, 02:28 AM
As I stated many times, Geist is your main way to win the game. If you start cutting them, you either destroy or change it drastically. The same with SFM. It just goes in a different direction than an aggressive tempo deck like this.
So, I never had a problem with the curve. You just have so many cantrips and other things to do to use your mana each turn completely - DRS is a pro in helping you in just that.
But I have to agree on the Souls, now they are in the SB again, freeing slots in the main for Dimir Charm and Vendilion Clique.
The Elspeth is there for midrange attrition based wars. She beats Jace, Garruk, Liliana, Bloodbraid and basically every other creature besides Tombstalker. Lingering Souls is also a problem, but therefor you got your own copy. So, Miracles, Stoneblade, Jund, BUG, Junk, Goblins, thats where she comes in..

Thanks for your answers. I've been running Geist and really liking it. I've also been running a UWR tempo deck (placed 2nd at an SCG a few weekends ago) and Geist works well in there.

Thanks for the explanation on Elspeth. I'll try it out. There is lots of Shardless BUG running around on MTGO (cascade BUG with Shardless Agent and Baleful Strix). I think that Elspeth is also good against this match up (so is Lingering Souls).

Water_Wizard
04-13-2013, 02:29 AM
Yeah my nine kill Spells should do the job, hopefully.

EDIT: I've been doing some thinking, and I've come around to cutting a Gost for a Karakas. The one less threat is fine with how fast we can rip through our deck, and the sability gained from having Karakas in the main, protecting our threats, improving MUs Vs various decks, and the additional Land, is very important. The additional slot in the sideboard, seeing as I don't see the point in the fourth Gost in any specific match, allowed me to explore other options. Specifically Intuition.

At first, I decided I didn't like double Elspeth. She's excellent, one of my favourites, but she feels a tad clinky here. She could close out the game, but I don't want to see her too early, and when I do I don't want to throw her back with Brainstorm attempting to find the Lands I need to cast her. She came out, giving me a second space. The first plan was to add Snapcaster Mage and something that would allow us to take either a more aggressive route in G2, or a slower more controlling route. The aggression definitely feels better with 20 Lands, but I decided to try a personal favourite of mine; Intuition. All of the numbers seemed so perfect. We have 3 of plenty of cards, and we wind up with '2 and Snap' if many specific cards in the sideboard. The only problem I'm seeing is that this isn't a 22 Land deck. With some more Lands I'd be comfortable with Perish Perish Snap, untap into a 5-mana Wrath with a 2/1 body. Right now that feels fairly ambitious, but I'd like to try it out. These are the dire situations in a later stage when we may well have found the lands we need.

Look at post #24 to this thread (if you haven't already). Intuition is good. I recommend that you run 1 Cabal Therapy, 1 Life from the Loam, and Lingering Souls along with it.

YamiJoey
04-13-2013, 03:22 AM
As I said, I think I was just messing with it for no good reason. The deck in 24 is a much bigger Deathblade variant, and I'm very much set on the tempo aspect, rather than a more controlling route.

HSCK
06-09-2013, 10:39 PM
So with the upturn of Deathblade should this be the thread for discussing it?