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Troy_Costisick
01-09-2013, 07:44 AM
Heya,

Have you guys noticed the price spike on Modern cards that is happening?

Kiki-Jiki Mirror Breaker
Leyline of Sanctity
Chromatic Star
Sylvan Scrying
Karn Liberated
Thoughtseize
Tarmogoyf
Vendilion Clique
Twilight Mire
Flooded Grove
Fetid Heath
Serum Visions
Blinkmoth Nexus
Wilt-Leaf Liege
Cryptic Command
Reshape
Auriok Champion
Serra Ascendant
Mox Opal
Daybreak Coronet
Zendikar Fetches

Are all rising very fast and many are completely sold out at most online vendors. I mean for instance, it's almost impossible to find a Tarmogoyf or Thoughtseize right now unless you want to pay $110 or $65 respectively. I haven't seen a spike like this since SCG raised its buy prices on eternal staples a couple years ago. Anyone got any reasoning behind all this?

Peace,

-Troy

JDK
01-09-2013, 08:06 AM
It's PTQ Season and Modern is gaining momentum in general. Some of the prices are just sick though.

Phoenix Ignition
01-09-2013, 12:36 PM
A lot of people are playing modern now. Supply and demand, you know.

Koby
01-09-2013, 12:50 PM
It's PTQ Season and Modern is gaining momentum in general. Some of the prices are just sick though.

This. It happens every PTQ season.

Troy_Costisick
01-09-2013, 12:58 PM
This. It happens every PTQ season.

That's true to a point, but I don't remember the last time Goyf spiked to $110-$125 or Thoughtseize to $60-$70.

Esper3k
01-09-2013, 01:01 PM
That's true to a point, but I don't remember the last time Goyf spiked to $110-$125 or Thoughtseize to $60-$70.

Well, those cards weren't played in the current most dominant deck in the format last time too...

JDK
01-09-2013, 01:10 PM
Well, those cards weren't played in the current most dominant deck in the format last time too...

Plus both cards are in BUG and Jund in Legacy too. Especially Thoughtseize keeps those decks competitive.

Koby
01-09-2013, 01:34 PM
That's true to a point, but I don't remember the last time Goyf spiked to $110-$125 or Thoughtseize to $60-$70.

Goyf was $100 last season. Add to that an additional year since it's been printed, hoarding, scarcity, inflation, and $110 isn't too far from the mark.

cartoonist
01-09-2013, 06:02 PM
Isn't Starcity starting to buy up Modern singles? I thought that's what happened with the Zendikar fetches. They're not running any Modern events this year, but that might be because they don't have a sufficient horde of singles yet.

Davran
01-10-2013, 02:45 PM
Isn't Starcity starting to buy up Modern singles? I thought that's what happened with the Zendikar fetches. They're not running any Modern events this year, but that might be because they don't have a sufficient horde of singles yet.

Wouldn't surprise me at all. I thought this format was supposed to be easier to get into than legacy? So far the support from the mothership just isn't there.

Phoenix Ignition
01-10-2013, 05:48 PM
Wouldn't surprise me at all. I thought this format was supposed to be easier to get into than legacy? So far the support from the mothership just isn't there.

Yeah, they aren't making an entire set devoted to reprinting many of the expensive cards or anything. Going to not say anything else because moderator red would be all over any other comments I write.

Troy_Costisick
01-11-2013, 08:40 AM
Wouldn't surprise me at all. I thought this format was supposed to be easier to get into than legacy? So far the support from the mothership just isn't there.

They're giving Modern a PTQ season, five Grand Prix's a year, a Pro Tour and making it a FNM format while at the same time reprinting a crucial set of dual lands in Standard legal sets and creating a special summer product just for it. Not to mention that every other FNM Promo looks like it's going to be some Modern playable card now. That's what I would consider support from the mothership. What would you consider support?

Davran
01-11-2013, 09:25 AM
Yeah, they aren't making an entire set devoted to reprinting many of the expensive cards or anything.

Don't get me wrong - I'm happy that the reserved list does not hinder the growth of this format. I'm also happy that they're willing to make something like Modern Masters in an attempt to increase the availability of some of the cards. What I disagree with is that they seem to be placing more stock in preserving the "value" of some collector's binder than they are in making competitive modern accessible to players that simply cannot afford to buy in. The "very limited" print run coupled with the mythic rarity of some of the highest value staples (e.g. Goyf) will ensure that stores charge more than MSRP for packs and that the price of expensive staples does not significantly change.

I also don't understand why they didn't include Zendikar block in the set. The fetch lands are quickly becoming some of the most expensive cards in the format, and at 8 per deck it's a significant barrier to entry. If Modern Masters has the intended effect of bringing more people into the format, they're only going to get more expensive and harder to find. Reprinting the shock lands is only half of the fix. The fetch lands need to be reprinted too.

nedleeds
01-11-2013, 11:41 AM
The fetch lands are quickly becoming some of the most expensive cards in the format, and at 8 per deck it's a significant barrier to entry. If Modern Masters has the intended effect of bringing more people into the format, they're only going to get more expensive and harder to find. Reprinting the shock lands is only half of the fix. The fetch lands need to be reprinted too.

I mean ... at what point do you consider the format not to have a significant barrier to entry? Fetchlands were $7-12 for a long, long, long time. Should they just print entire modern decks for $75.00? The $30 fetchland is a better buy than a $25 Thragtusk. Do you consider standard to have to high a barrier of entry?

People need to remember magic is a CCG. C. Stands for collectible. If you want to pick up and play for $100 go check out a boxed game.

Davran
01-11-2013, 01:28 PM
I mean ... at what point do you consider the format not to have a significant barrier to entry? Fetchlands were $7-12 for a long, long, long time. Should they just print entire modern decks for $75.00? The $30 fetchland is a better buy than a $25 Thragtusk. Do you consider standard to have to high a barrier of entry?

People need to remember magic is a CCG. C. Stands for collectible. If you want to pick up and play for $100 go check out a boxed game.

Honestly, which is healthier for competitive magic play? A room full of 500 players with $800 decks, or a room full of 1000 players with $400 decks? It's an obvious oversimplification, but the point is that the more affordable the format is, the more people will be able to play it. That's good for everyone involved. It's good for WotC, because people still buy from them and represent their brand. It's good for the players, because we have more opportunities to play and a larger community to play with. It's good for the collectors because there are still thousands of people that care about a card game they've invested in. Sure, their collection is worth a little less...but at least it's still worth something.

Troy_Costisick
01-11-2013, 03:23 PM
Honestly, which is healthier for competitive magic play? A room full of 500 players with $800 decks, or a room full of 1000 players with $400 decks? It's an obvious oversimplification, but the point is that the more affordable the format is, the more people will be able to play it.

I don't know if there's any evidence that halving the price of cards will double the attendance at tournaments. The last four years of Magic have seen card prices get higher than ever before since Standard was introduced. And in the last four years, tournament attendance has been at record highs and sales have been at record highs. If high prices kept people from playing competively, Magic would be dead right now and there'd be no SCG Opens. Don't get me wrong. I think the recent price spike (which has spread to even MORE cards now) is a negative thing, but I don't think flooding the market with cards would produce the kind of results you think it would.

Lord Seth
01-11-2013, 10:17 PM
The fetchlands probably aren't in Modern Masters because they're going to put them back into Standard at some point. It's hard to imagine they won't eventually.

That, or they think the Zendikar block is recent enough that it doesn't have accessibility problems as great as the ones before it do, and that's just where they put their cutoff point. (it had to go somewhere)


What I disagree with is that they seem to be placing more stock in preserving the "value" of some collector's binder than they are in making competitive modern accessible to players that simply cannot afford to buy in.I'm not sure they do put that much stock in preserving value. They certainly didn't when they caused the shocklands to lose half their value due to Return to Ravnica increasing the supply so much.

Tormod
01-12-2013, 12:10 AM
The fetchlands probably aren't in Modern Masters because they're going to put them back into Standard at some point. It's hard to imagine they won't eventually.

That, or they think the Zendikar block is recent enough that it doesn't have accessibility problems as great as the ones before it do, and that's just where they put their cutoff point. (it had to go somewhere)

I'm not sure they do put that much stock in preserving value. They certainly didn't when they caused the shocklands to lose half their value due to Return to Ravnica increasing the supply so much.

To be fair shocks were only worth $5 before Modern was announced.

Barook
01-12-2013, 02:04 AM
Don't get me wrong - I'm happy that the reserved list does not hinder the growth of this format. I'm also happy that they're willing to make something like Modern Masters in an attempt to increase the availability of some of the cards. What I disagree with is that they seem to be placing more stock in preserving the "value" of some collector's binder than they are in making competitive modern accessible to players that simply cannot afford to buy in. The "very limited" print run coupled with the mythic rarity of some of the highest value staples (e.g. Goyf) will ensure that stores charge more than MSRP for packs and that the price of expensive staples does not significantly change.

I also don't understand why they didn't include Zendikar block in the set. The fetch lands are quickly becoming some of the most expensive cards in the format, and at 8 per deck it's a significant barrier to entry. If Modern Masters has the intended effect of bringing more people into the format, they're only going to get more expensive and harder to find. Reprinting the shock lands is only half of the fix. The fetch lands need to be reprinted too.
Wizards are going to milk Modern with yearly Modern Masters sets. Just wait for it. Tarmogoyf at Mythic rarity is the best indicator.

Highly priced cards have alot of appeal to buyers if they appear in packs. If they put all the good stuff into one set and print it at a reasonable number, prices would go down way too much to make Modern Masters 2 attractive anytime soon.

Koby
01-12-2013, 04:27 AM
Wizards can milk Masters for at least 3 sets. They have done so with Masters Edition on MTGO four times.

Think of GP Vegas as a Release Event and it makes more sense.

mini1337s
01-12-2013, 01:40 PM
I also don't understand why they didn't include Zendikar block in the set. The fetch lands are quickly becoming some of the most expensive cards in the format, and at 8 per deck it's a significant barrier to entry. If Modern Masters has the intended effect of bringing more people into the format, they're only going to get more expensive and harder to find. Reprinting the shock lands is only half of the fix. The fetch lands need to be reprinted too.
They could reprint the Onslaught fetchlands in order to smooth out the mana base. Right now the Modern Duals versus Fetches are not proportional, so a later set/promo expansion could reprint the fetches. To me the lack of fetches in Modern Masters hinted at a potential ONS fetch reprint, but that's purely my opinion and speculation. Hopefully they do as enemy fetches can somewhat stifle (though to a minimal extent) allied colored decks, and the reprint would be good for reducing the barrier to entry to all formats.

bruizar
01-12-2013, 05:26 PM
So let me get this straight.. First people complain about dual lands. They get shockduals and a reprint of shockduals, and now fetchland is the culprit to format accessibility? Come on guys. Zendikar wasn't released 20 years ago and there are plenty in circulation.

rxavage
01-12-2013, 05:36 PM
So let me get this straight.. First people complain about dual lands. They get shockduals and a reprint of shockduals, and now fetchland is the culprit to format accessibility? Come on guys. Zendikar wasn't released 20 years ago and there are plenty in circulation.

People won't stop complaining until the government provides mtg assistance and they receive monthly benefits from wotc... Until they realize that this has caused the prices to increase further. I don't know why people feel so entitled, playing magic isn't a necessity.

lordofthepit
01-12-2013, 08:51 PM
This response isn't surprising at all. To put it politely, Modern was created as a format for those who couldn't afford to get into Legacy. Some of them felt entitled to a non-rotating format and blamed existing Legacy players, collectors, speculators, WotC, StarCityGames, and countless other entities for their inability to enjoy Legacy, as though they felt all these groups were working in conjunction to somehow price them out of this experience.

However, they're learning that supply and demand principles do not apply to Legacy exclusively, and that speculators are going to try to capitalize off perceived arbitrage in Modern as well as Legacy.

Lord Seth
01-13-2013, 02:36 AM
I wouldn't mind an Onslaught fetchland reprint in Standard. Not just to make there be more copies around, but just because I think it's really weird that only the enemy colored lands have fetchlands in Modern.

I'm sure it's coming eventually though. Wizards is just holding them until they find a set they think they fit in like they did with Zendikar.

nedleeds
01-16-2013, 01:12 PM
Honestly, which is healthier for competitive magic play? A room full of 500 players with $800 decks, or a room full of 1000 players with $400 decks? It's an obvious oversimplification, but the point is that the more affordable the format is, the more people will be able to play it. That's good for everyone involved. It's good for WotC, because people still buy from them and represent their brand. It's good for the players, because we have more opportunities to play and a larger community to play with. It's good for the collectors because there are still thousands of people that care about a card game they've invested in. Sure, their collection is worth a little less...but at least it's still worth something.


Honestly, which is healthier for competitive magic play? A room full of 500 players with $800 decks, or a room full of 1000 players with $400 decks? It's an obvious oversimplification, but the point is that the more affordable the format is, the more people will be able to play it. That's good for everyone involved. It's good for WotC, because people still buy from them and represent their brand. It's good for the players, because we have more opportunities to play and a larger community to play with. It's good for the collectors because there are still thousands of people that care about a card game they've invested in. Sure, their collection is worth a little less...but at least it's still worth something.

You make too many assumptions about how people want to play their magic. I'd rather go to Vintage worlds and play with 300 people and play all my beta power with other people who own powerful and valuable cards than sit at a Starcity standard event with 800 people all copying the same 3 lame standard decks. Why? Because it's fucking awesome and elite.

I don't want every mouth breathing grocery bagger to be able to afford the best deck. That's just me. Magic isn't a right, it's a collectible hobby with a skill element at the sanctioned level.

Also, defining affordable is tough. Standard over a period of years with Johnny Standards buying his Baneslayers @ $30-40 then trading in his Baneslayers after they plunge (ditto for Titans, Planeswalkers, Lands, other standard must haves) is as big a money sink as legacy if you consider that Johnny Standards could have just bought reserved list / legacy staples. Now I think Modern helps alleviate this pain a bit ... e.g. a competitive standard card might retain its value a bit more if it also a fine card in Modern (see: Kitchen Fink) ... at the same time S&D will still punish those who didn't get the card on the cheap no matter what the format is called or how the border looks (see: Bob, Goyf, Thoughtseize, Auriok Champion, Mutavault, Shocks for a bit, Fetches, Daybreak C).

Koby
01-16-2013, 01:21 PM
Affordability is so relative that it's a joke to even call it that at the competitive level.
Take MTGO vs Paper prices. A $150 Underground Sea is not affordable in paper, but at $26 (tix) on MTGO it is?

While I appreciate the Ideal tournament environment that allows people to play whatever they want or think is the best cards/deck without regards to card availability; the truth in tournament Magic is that scarcity exists. Not everyone will be able to play the same 75 card deck. This is what makes the experience interesting (variation) and challenging (trading/metagaming).

PTQ season is the primary driver for increased demand of all cards. This is an old phenomenon. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Goyf, Bob, Thoughtseize, etc are useful in Modern. Stocking up on them during the off-season and unload them during the high-demand portion of the year becomes a profitable venture. Play smarter, not harder. I'm fucking sick of people moaning that they are getting reamed because of being ill-prepared for planned events.

dunk
01-19-2013, 02:37 PM
All this hype about Modern and then the Spanish GP can't even gather 1000 people... pretty weak for a european GP. If it was Legacy I'm sure there would be 1500 people at least.

Pastorofmuppets
01-21-2013, 05:52 AM
Isn't Starcity starting to buy up Modern singles? I thought that's what happened with the Zendikar fetches. They're not running any Modern events this year, but that might be because they don't have a sufficient horde of singles yet.

Starcity likes to kill every format this way. Anybody else remember when Merfolk was a $200 deck? Starcity is just one letter away from scarcity. It's like Obama and Osama, man.
Man, I really regret giving away my set of Seizes during one of the Secret Santas here. The good news is that it wouldn't be hard to get into the format with a deck like Urzatron anyway, since the tron pieces have been reprinted 500 times.

KobeBryan
01-21-2013, 02:22 PM
Starcity likes to kill every format this way. Anybody else remember when Merfolk was a $200 deck? Starcity is just one letter away from scarcity. It's like Obama and Osama, man.
Man, I really regret giving away my set of Seizes during one of the Secret Santas here. The good news is that it wouldn't be hard to get into the format with a deck like Urzatron anyway, since the tron pieces have been reprinted 500 times.

I'm pretty sure as a secondary seller in the market, Starcity games would prefer to support a larger eternal format like legacy than modern. This way they have more access to cards to sell and hoard up.

Makes no sense really if scg drops legacy altogether when there is a huge inventory of cards that needs to be unloaded.

bruizar
01-21-2013, 02:30 PM
Starcity has the health of magic as a top priority. They don't earn money when the game dies out. Sure, Starcity does some cutthroat things to earn cash, but no one benefits from a dead game, so it's not all 'evil-empire'.

Lhet
01-22-2013, 01:18 AM
Starcity has the health of magic as a top priority. They don't earn money when the game dies out. Sure, Starcity does some cutthroat things to earn cash, but no one benefits from a dead game, so it's not all 'evil-empire'.

That's almost like saying lenders have the health of the housing market in mind as their top priority. It's definitely not completely black-and-white ethically, but Starcity is definitely focused on profit. By keeping a certain format alive with tournaments, they are able to establish control on that market.

Megadeus
01-24-2013, 11:24 PM
I mean to be fair, if starcity is the only place that does big legacy tournements why not at least suppirt them a bit?

lordofthepit
01-25-2013, 04:00 AM
Leyline of Sanctity: $15
Serum Visions: $3 (LOLOLOL)

nedleeds
01-25-2013, 12:24 PM
SCG benefits from formats where card values are high because their model (like any card store) is "buy your shit for about half of what we sell it for".

Digging through 108 Mirran Crusaders. Paying $1.08 each for them. Selling them for $2.75.

vs.

Buying one Underground Sea. Paying $60 each for them. Selling them for $109.00.

(actual prices may vary)

It's easier for them to just recycle that Sea a thousand times. It's an easy buy. Assuming they have enough cash (e.g. their buying power is effectively unlimited) it's one transaction to make $49. On a stable asset. There's way less flux with eternal cards. Underground Sea isn't going to be $20 tomorrow. Whereas Baneslayers, Titans, other rotating reprintable standard crap is up and down.

Technics
02-01-2013, 12:07 AM
The main and ultimatly ONLY goal of the modern format is to make Hasbro money. If you have expensive cards, it makes people buy more packs from wizards to avoid having to make that $400 investment down the road for goyfs, when they could just buy a bunch of packs now, and then trade for the cards they think will be good down the road.

Obviously this is working, as MTG is getting 30%+ attendance at pre-release events where lots of product gets opened.

http://www.examiner.com/article/magic-the-gathering-a-contributing-factor-hasbro-s-10-profit-growth