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klaus
02-27-2013, 11:44 AM
Not to be a stickler, but this IS the jund thread. Not Team America
True.

aznepyon7
02-27-2013, 04:51 PM
Maverick, Punishing Maverick and Junk are bad matchups for Jund.

How is the matchup for these against PF Jund?

Luckily Maverick isn't around as much. That deck seriously gets on my nerves and is the sole reason I've ever considered playing combo.

sdematt
02-27-2013, 06:27 PM
Maverick, Punishing Maverick and Junk are bad matchups for Jund. I don't know why it's so extraordinary that BUG Control/Midrange can have a positive matchup against Jund. Play sweepers, play manlands with life from the loam. Just generate Card Advantage and reach the lategame. Hymn to tourach and BBE CA engine is worse than:

1. Sweepers
2. Manlands with life from the loam (making also CA) and make sure that Liliana trades 1:1 after a sacrifice.
3. Snapcaster Mage, flashback Abrupt decay while blocking Bloodbraid Elf.

BUT Jund with Punishing Fire is completely different. It's a tough matchup and a lot harder to beat than normal Jund.

I would also count UR Delver as a fair deck. PoP and stuff just destroy Jund.

Against Punishing Fire Jund i would play something like that. I have not tested it yet.

Creatures

3Snapcaster Mage
1Vendilion Clique

Removal

3Abrupt decay
2Innocent Blood
2Pernicious Deed
1 Disfigure
2 Damnation
2 Dismember

Counter
2 Counterspell

"Draw"
4Brainstorm
3Standstill
2Life from the Loam

Discard
3Thoughtseize

Walkerz

2Liliana of the Veil
4Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands
2Tropical Island
4Underground Sea
3Mishra's Factory
4Verdant Catacombs
4Misty Rainforest
1Polluted Delta
2Bayou
3Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit

I'm running something similar, but I haven't done enough testing to say if it's good or not. Back to being Jund, though.

You know how you hose everyone? Price of Progress. I know Jund runs a ton of non-basics, but are Jund players ever THAT behind in life points that you care?

-Matt

Adryan
02-27-2013, 06:47 PM
I'm running something similar, but I haven't done enough testing to say if it's good or not. Back to being Jund, though.

You know how you hose everyone? Price of Progress. I know Jund runs a ton of non-basics, but are Jund players ever THAT behind in life points that you care?

-Matt

Burn is a hard matchup for Jund. And now remove speed and add consistency... Worse

I don't like everyone hyping Jund. Jund is a good deck but it doesn't prey on all the fair decks. People have to realize this. Two months ago Jund wasn't there in Legacy. And now suddenly it is the best fair deck? You still have Goblins, Junk UR Delver and Maverick. All these decks have a good Jund matchup.

razvan
02-27-2013, 09:34 PM
Jund certainly WAS around 2 months ago. A lot of us were playing it, just we didn't have much success at large events (my best was day 2 of a GP). It was a good deck. Burn does have a good jund match-up, as it does any midrange matchup with no/little real life gain. It's about even against most other decks, they are just VERY annoying to play against.

Barbed Blightning
02-27-2013, 11:51 PM
Maindeck Hymns certainly help gain you time, though, and something like Ooze/Jitte from the board allows you to stabilize enough to counter punch them out.

lordofthepit
02-28-2013, 03:24 AM
Burn is a hard matchup for Jund. And now remove speed and add consistency... Worse

I don't like everyone hyping Jund. Jund is a good deck but it doesn't prey on all the fair decks. People have to realize this. Two months ago Jund wasn't there in Legacy. And now suddenly it is the best fair deck? You still have Goblins, Junk UR Delver and Maverick. All these decks have a good Jund matchup.

Goblins has a terrible Jund matchup. I've played on both sides of the table, and every time, the Goblins player said this was a nightmare matchup.

I think Junk and Maverick are pretty close to even. Slight edge to the GW deck if Jund isn't running Punishing Fires; other way around if so. I think Junk is slightly better than Maverick against Jund. Margin is pretty close either way.

No comment on the UR Delver matchup. I haven't played that matchup yet.

Koplinchen
03-01-2013, 09:51 AM
There will be a several GP (Strasbourgh) trial here. If you can choose any deck which one would you play? Or would you take JUNK or JUND?

I feel that our Rock/JUNK is better against combo and has a descent game against the field.

On the other hand JUND is weaker against combo but stronger agaist Elves! and probably slightly better against fair decks thanks to Punishing Fire. (esper, vial aggro)

I like Cabal Therapy much more than Hymn to Tourach, Lingering Souls more than Bloodbraid Elf, but I dont know what is actually the better deck.

sdematt
03-01-2013, 01:36 PM
Junk lets you run Zealous Persecution to take Elves out as well as pumping your Souls tokens. It's darn good to be running Golgari and Orzhov, but I'm a bit biased.

-Matt

Richard Cheese
03-04-2013, 11:20 AM
Played this list yesterday at our weekly local. Came in second, only losing to Kavu/Cure


3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Hymn to Tourach

2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Sinkhole
1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay


3 Bayou
3 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Mountain
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills


Basically I swapped out the Punishing Fires package for Sinkholes, since our local meta is mostly combo with a splash of control. Sinkhole was a boss all day, stealing games against DDFT, Painter, and Pox. I felt like I was playing old-school land destruction all day. Going forward I'll probably drop the second Taiga, maybe find room for another Liliana (if I can pick one up), and fix the sideboard, which was basically a lazy transfer from Aggro Loam.

Shawon
03-04-2013, 01:11 PM
I was actually thinking of writing a post in thread discussing the possibility of doubling down on LD with Sinkhole as a means to address the rise of combo. I'm glad that Richard Cheese went out and tried LD in practice. I had an idea that one way normal Jund could differentiate itself as a distinct variant of Jund that isn't just a weaker version of Punishing Jund is one that tries to emulate Pox post-board, with Sinkholes main/SB and Extirpates to rip apart combo/control decks. Since normal Jund lacks Punishing Fire and are thus more able to produce black mana, it might be a wise direction to really up the count on black spells in the deck to combat combo and control.

Barbed Blightning
03-04-2013, 01:49 PM
All I can say is this: in my Team America list, sideboard sinkholes have been awesome.

Against combo, however, I think they are hit and miss. Show and Tell/Reanimator? Spectacular. Storm and Dredge? Lacklustre

Richard Cheese
03-04-2013, 02:25 PM
All I can say is this: in my Team America list, sideboard sinkholes have been awesome.

Against combo, however, I think they are hit and miss. Show and Tell/Reanimator? Spectacular. Storm and Dredge? Lacklustre

Actually it can be pretty amazing against storm decks, and it's worlds better than Punishing Fires in that matchup. Storm decks always have greedy manabases, and keeping them off a color or blowing up their basic(s) can often be the difference between winning and losing. Where I expect it to be worse are tempo decks like RUG and BUG.

Barbed Blightning
03-04-2013, 02:38 PM
Actually it can be pretty amazing against storm decks, and it's worlds better than Punishing Fires in that matchup. Storm decks always have greedy manabases, and keeping them off a color or blowing up their basic(s) can often be the difference between winning and losing. Where I expect it to be worse are tempo decks like RUG and BUG.

TES and Belcher are certainly less concerned, since they have no basics and don't need lands to combo off.

I personally like the idea, I'm just playing devil's advocate

Final Fortune
03-05-2013, 10:25 PM
TES and Belcher are certainly less concerned, since they have no basics and don't need lands to combo off.

I personally like the idea, I'm just playing devil's advocate

Belcher I'll give you, but TES really, really hates disruption targeted at its lands more than you think IMO.

Barbed Blightning
03-05-2013, 11:41 PM
Belcher I'll give you, but TES really, really hates disruption targeted at its lands more than you think IMO.

I'm certain a TES pilot is far happier to see a turn two sinkhole than a turn two hymn.

LD has its merits. In this meta especially, where pfire is losing value, sinkholes can be devastating. But I think it is important also to realize its weaknesses and matchup where it is bad

phazonmutant
03-06-2013, 01:59 AM
I'm certain a TES pilot is far happier to see a turn two sinkhole than a turn two hymn.

LD has its merits. In this meta especially, where pfire is losing value, sinkholes can be devastating. But I think it is important also to realize its weaknesses and matchup where it is bad

Seconded. Sinkhole is definitely better than Punishing Fire against TES when you don't draw Hymn. This seems like a cool plan. Maybe you should go up to 1 Loam main?

Did anything come out of the discussion about adding Sensei's Top to jund?

Megadeus
03-06-2013, 02:03 AM
It is hit or miss but of course its better than a recurrable shock... I mean the fact that TES only plays 12-13 lands and you play Wastelands already makes TES vulnerable. You still cant beat a god hand obviously, and the fact that TES can sometimes just hold their land until they need it. Not saying Sinkhole is bad though. Would you board it in vs Miracles at all? If you are only boarding it vs combo, wouldnt you be better off boarding something that actually beats combo like a MB Trap or something?

Barbed Blightning
03-06-2013, 10:33 AM
It is hit or miss but of course its better than a recurrable shock... I mean the fact that TES only plays 12-13 lands and you play Wastelands already makes TES vulnerable. You still cant beat a god hand obviously, and the fact that TES can sometimes just hold their land until they need it. Not saying Sinkhole is bad though. Would you board it in vs Miracles at all? If you are only boarding it vs combo, wouldnt you be better off boarding something that actually beats combo like a MB Trap or something?

I board them in vs miracles always with TA. hitting their only plains can really screw them over.

alphastryk
03-06-2013, 11:12 AM
I board them in vs miracles always with TA. hitting their only plains can really screw them over.

Yep, as a miracles player, Sinkholing my basics is very bad news for me.

Richard Cheese
03-06-2013, 04:02 PM
Glad to see that Sinkhole didn't just get shot down. Like I said, it just felt like old-school LD, just mean in a dirty way...greasy even. I would really like to fit a single Loam in there, I'm just not sure where.

I think my next step will be figuring out what to board in when it's bad, namely RUG and BUG. Maybe just more burn, or possibly Edict if Divert becomes the answer of choice to this deck.

Esper3k
03-06-2013, 04:06 PM
Divert still works on Edict though?

I like the idea of Sinkhole in the sideboard for the mirror.

Really, I think Jund usually has a positive against all the fair decks we should really just be packing sideboard hate for combo and for the mirror.

Shawon
03-06-2013, 04:09 PM
What are your guy's thoughts on adding Boom // Bust as backup to Sinkhole? A 3-1 split?

Barbed Blightning
03-06-2013, 04:43 PM
What are your guy's thoughts on adding Boom // Bust as backup to Sinkhole? A 3-1 split?

Cascading into Armageddon? Sounds good to me

DLifshitz
03-06-2013, 05:12 PM
What are your guy's thoughts on adding Boom // Bust as backup to Sinkhole? A 3-1 split?

Revealing Boom//Bust with Bob makes you lose 8 life, it's too risky. I'm not sure about Sinkhole itself, BUG does play it in the sideboard but it can filter it out in the late game, and also it can end games faster with evasive beaters like Delver and Stalker. Our own creatures have a much lower power to cost ratio on average, so we don't have as much to gain from generating tempo, if that makes sense.

Richard Cheese
03-07-2013, 12:12 AM
Divert still works on Edict though?

I like the idea of Sinkhole in the sideboard for the mirror.

Really, I think Jund usually has a positive against all the fair decks we should really just be packing sideboard hate for combo and for the mirror.

Hah! Totally brainfarted that one and forgot that you still have to target a player. Do you think Punishing Fire is integral to the decks matchup against other fair decks? Sinkhole could definitely be a board card, I'm just maindecking it in our meta because it's 80% combo and 20% control.

Shawon
03-07-2013, 07:48 AM
Your opponent can't Divert a Cruel Edict, FWIW.

Esper3k
03-07-2013, 09:14 AM
Hah! Totally brainfarted that one and forgot that you still have to target a player. Do you think Punishing Fire is integral to the decks matchup against other fair decks? Sinkhole could definitely be a board card, I'm just maindecking it in our meta because it's 80% combo and 20% control.

I do think PFires is absolutely key to winning against fair decks and helps greatly against control.

Against fair decks, you get to wipe out all the X/2's with 3 mana and X/4's with 5 mana on top of winning 'goyf fights.

Against control, Pfires is a great answer to Jace and really keeps him from getting out of control. It also has a side benefit of killing SFM's, Cliques, Vensers and even Batterskull germs (repeatedly) as well.

Shawon
03-07-2013, 09:21 AM
Revealing Boom//Bust with Bob makes you lose 8 life, it's too risky. I'm not sure about Sinkhole itself, BUG does play it in the sideboard but it can filter it out in the late game, and also it can end games faster with evasive beaters like Delver and Stalker. Our own creatures have a much lower power to cost ratio on average, so we don't have as much to gain from generating tempo, if that makes sense.

Do you think it's that risky if Boom / Bust is a 1-of? I wouldn't MD the card, just as a 1-of in the SB against control only, whereas Sinkhole has other applications. I would take the chance of losing 8 life I probably wouldn't need against control if I have the opportunity to do serious damage to the opponent's manabase with either half of the card.

Asthereal
03-07-2013, 10:02 AM
Actually it can be pretty amazing against storm decks, and it's worlds better than Punishing Fires in that matchup. Storm decks always have greedy manabases, and keeping them off a color or blowing up their basic(s) can often be the difference between winning and losing. Where I expect it to be worse are tempo decks like RUG and BUG.
Guys, if you are concerned about TES, please just switch decks. Jund kills fair stuff. Jund dies to unfair stuff. Hell, it cannot even beat a turn 3 EtW for 14+. That's like the worst a TES deck coughs up normally. I'd recommend making sure you beat all the fair stuff, and have versatile sideboard cards that work against both control and combo (more discard, REB's, Surgicals, perhaps a few Pulses). Good TES players will just kill you. Against a bad one, or an unlucky one, you have a chance. But never more than just a chance.

I would say that against strong TES-players, your matchup will be somewhere around 20-25 / 75-80.

Barbed Blightning
03-07-2013, 10:53 AM
Guys, if you are concerned about TES, please just switch decks. Jund kills fair stuff. Jund dies to unfair stuff. Hell, it cannot even beat a turn 3 EtW for 14+. That's like the worst a TES deck coughs up normally. I'd recommend making sure you beat all the fair stuff, and have versatile sideboard cards that work against both control and combo (more discard, REB's, Surgicals, perhaps a few Pulses). Good TES players will just kill you. Against a bad one, or an unlucky one, you have a chance. But never more than just a chance.

I would say that against strong TES-players, your matchup will be somewhere around 20-25 / 75-80.

That's pretty fair. For me, being in NY state, it's like the Combo Den (or at least Eye of the Storm) so Jund just under performs.

My buddy has a very solid list for combo and control; I'll post it soon.

Richard Cheese
03-07-2013, 10:59 AM
I do think PFires is absolutely key to winning against fair decks and helps greatly against control.

Against fair decks, you get to wipe out all the X/2's with 3 mana and X/4's with 5 mana on top of winning 'goyf fights.

Against control, Pfires is a great answer to Jace and really keeps him from getting out of control. It also has a side benefit of killing SFM's, Cliques, Vensers and even Batterskull germs (repeatedly) as well.

Yeah, I've played it before and liked it in Zoo and Loam, but both of those decks like having access to R/G way more than this one does. Every time I drew Taiga last weekend it was disappointing, but I am running two extra spells that want BB. After playing the deck, I wondered if Cursed Scroll might not be a reasonable card either main or in the board. Way easier on the manabase, harder to hate out, and I never really had a problem dumping my hand quickly.

Or, would just having 4 Chain Lightning in the board be enough to repress the fair decks.

Also, since I'm too lazy to search, has anyone tried to find room for Tombstalker in here?

Esper3k
03-07-2013, 11:49 AM
Yeah, I've played it before and liked it in Zoo and Loam, but both of those decks like having access to R/G way more than this one does. Every time I drew Taiga last weekend it was disappointing, but I am running two extra spells that want BB. After playing the deck, I wondered if Cursed Scroll might not be a reasonable card either main or in the board. Way easier on the manabase, harder to hate out, and I never really had a problem dumping my hand quickly.

Or, would just having 4 Chain Lightning in the board be enough to repress the fair decks.

Also, since I'm too lazy to search, has anyone tried to find room for Tombstalker in here?

I think Cursed Scroll is easier to hate out than PFires is. Regular artifact hate or Needle/Revoker just kills Cursed Scroll whereas a lot of yard hate won't hit PFires if you play around it.

Also don't forget once you get to 5 mana, PFires can kill X/4's, which Cursed Scroll can't do.

To me, it's not an issue of the number of removal spells, but that PFires is a recurrable one (so you're spending less slots on removal yet still effectively having the same amount).

I think Tombstalker is bad just because of the whole Dark Confidant interaction especially since Jund typically has close to 0 library manipulation.

lambert101
03-07-2013, 12:00 PM
Been brewing this p. fire jund lists and want to get some input (i am going to abbreviate some cards) :

Main:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstaind Mire
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
4 Grove of Burnt Willows
4 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Forest

3 Bbe
4 goyf
4 bob
4 deathrite

4 bolt
4 a. Decay
3 p fire
3 lily 2.0
4 thoughtseize
3 hymn

Board:
3 pyroblast
3 surgical
3 duress
2 rakdos charm
1 hymn
1 library
1 golgari charm
1 flex spot

Esper3k
03-07-2013, 12:19 PM
Been brewing this p. fire jund lists and want to get some input (i am going to abbreviate some cards) :

Main:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstaind Mire
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
4 Grove of Burnt Willows
4 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Forest

3 Bbe
4 goyf
4 bob
4 deathrite

4 bolt
4 a. Decay
3 p fire
3 lily 2.0
4 thoughtseize
3 hymn

Board:
3 pyroblast
3 surgical
3 duress
2 rakdos charm
1 hymn
1 library
1 golgari charm
1 flex spot

Maindeck seems fine. You can probably cut 1 Bolt for a 4th Liliana if you want. I'd probably also stick the 4th BBE into the board.

Barbed Blightning
03-07-2013, 12:44 PM
Maindeck seems fine. You can probably cut 1 Bolt for a 4th Liliana if you want. I'd probably also stick the 4th BBE into the board.

This is that list I mentioned; Lambert and I are of the opinion that the 4th Lilly can have the same problem the 4th BBE has: cumbersome when you are down on mana, and not always what you need. Bolt gives you reach, and is too good (imo) to not run 4.

I do agree that the 4th BBE should be in the board.

DLifshitz
03-07-2013, 01:50 PM
Do you think it's that risky if Boom / Bust is a 1-of? I wouldn't MD the card, just as a 1-of in the SB against control only, whereas Sinkhole has other applications. I would take the chance of losing 8 life I probably wouldn't need against control if I have the opportunity to do serious damage to the opponent's manabase with either half of the card.

My bad, somehow I thought you meant 3 Boom//Bust, 1 Sinkhole. Anyway, against control decks, assuming you're playing Punishing Fire, why not board in Deed instead? Between Punishing Fire, Decay and Deed, you're going to have answers to pretty much everything, and at least Deed is good against random tempo and Gobs.

In other news, on TCdecks today they've shown a Maverick list with Loxodon Smiter and Wilt-Leaf Liege. People are starting to show Jund some respect! :cool:

lambert101
03-07-2013, 02:55 PM
For my list posted earlier, Bbe is going to be "flex spot". Was also thinking that or Garuk Relentless

Richard Cheese
03-07-2013, 05:44 PM
I think Cursed Scroll is easier to hate out than PFires is. Regular artifact hate or Needle/Revoker just kills Cursed Scroll whereas a lot of yard hate won't hit PFires if you play around it.

Also don't forget once you get to 5 mana, PFires can kill X/4's, which Cursed Scroll can't do.

To me, it's not an issue of the number of removal spells, but that PFires is a recurrable one (so you're spending less slots on removal yet still effectively having the same amount).

I think Tombstalker is bad just because of the whole Dark Confidant interaction especially since Jund typically has close to 0 library manipulation.

Right, Bob. I'm just going to shut up and stop posting from work when I apparently can't think.

Raggedjoe
03-08-2013, 02:10 PM
I really like Garruk Relentless. He's a total house in many matchups, and hands you the game on a silver platter agai st control. I'm running 3 Liliana, 3 BBE, 1 Garruk in the main (non PF list) and it is usually OK, though I wouldn't dream of pushing any higher. There's a large amount of Miracles in my meta still, so I have taken to running 2 Ooze in the main for a total of 17 creatures. The extra grave hate definitely comes in handy, and I'm only running 2 SE now for a bit of extra discard vs combo. I'm very happy with my list, and I really don't feel combo is do horrid. I mean, sure it's bad, but it's far better than Burn IMO. I think we are even or favored post board against ANT.

aznepyon7
03-08-2013, 03:47 PM
Yeah, I've played it before and liked it in Zoo and Loam, but both of those decks like having access to R/G way more than this one does. Every time I drew Taiga last weekend it was disappointing, but I am running two extra spells that want BB. After playing the deck, I wondered if Cursed Scroll might not be a reasonable card either main or in the board. Way easier on the manabase, harder to hate out, and I never really had a problem dumping my hand quickly.

Or, would just having 4 Chain Lightning in the board be enough to repress the fair decks.

Also, since I'm too lazy to search, has anyone tried to find room for Tombstalker in here?


As you already mentioned, getting BB is really important and I hate drawing Taiga. Sometimes I think of just cutting it out.

TS is awful for many reasons because we don't want to be running yet another spell that costs BB. TS also destroys our graveyard which we rely on for our DSR and competes in cost with BBE. Not to mention getting a TS with Confidant out is auto-lose. We don't have Brainstorm or Ponder to keep the Russian roulette of TS and Confidant from destroying us and putting a SDT isn't optimal. Besides what are we going to take out? I would rather go with a 4th BBE.

DrHealex
03-11-2013, 12:33 PM
I played punishing jund at SCGindy.

Rnd1: (2-0) Mono Black Pox rocking tabernacles and nether voids.
Rnd2: (2-0) GWb Nic Fit
Rnd3: (0-2) Rw Burn, saw boros charm and sacred foundry.
Rnd4: (2-0) Dream Halls
Rnd5: (2-0) Merfolk
Rnd6: (1-2) Jund Loam, partially on camera, I played very badly g3.
Rnd7: (2-1) RUG Delver
Rnd8: (1-2) Belcher
Rnd9: (2-0) Sneak and Show

I'm pretty happy with the result since I didn't want to play the deck. For some reason I have nivmagus elemental on the mind but couldn't hammer out a decklist that I was happy with in time.

LEH
03-11-2013, 12:44 PM
I played punishing jund at SCGindy.

Rnd1: (2-0) Mono Black Pox rocking tabernacles and nether voids.
Rnd2: (2-0) GWb Nic Fit
Rnd3: (0-2) Rw Burn, saw boros charm and sacred foundry.
Rnd4: (2-0) Dream Halls
Rnd5: (2-0) Merfolk
Rnd6: (1-2) Jund Loam, partially on camera, I played very badly g3.
Rnd7: (2-1) RUG Delver
Rnd8: (1-2) Belcher
Rnd9: (2-0) Sneak and Show

I'm pretty happy with the result since I didn't want to play the deck. For some reason I have nivmagus elemental on the mind but couldn't hammer out a decklist that I was happy with in time.

You can't really argue with that, only lost to basically auto lose decks, and Jund which is generally decided by the die roll and luck most of the time anyway. Strong results, well played.

Esper3k
03-11-2013, 01:19 PM
Even taking a game off of Belcher is pretty good for Jund! :)

phazonmutant
03-12-2013, 01:27 AM
I'm not trolling, serious question. Do you guys actually enjoy playing Jund? Every time I've played it or played against it, no matter the matchup, it seems like there's about 2 non-forced decisions a game for Jund - there's no way to manipulate your draw! Literally like rolling dice.

Edit:
I'm sorry, this post was definitely in no way reasonable. Maybe I'm not playing with/against against the right decks. I guess the combo matchup was interactive.

feline
03-12-2013, 01:58 AM
I played punishing jund at SCGindy.

Rnd1: (2-0) Mono Black Pox rocking tabernacles and nether voids.
Rnd2: (2-0) GWb Nic Fit
Rnd3: (0-2) Rw Burn, saw boros charm and sacred foundry.
Rnd4: (2-0) Dream Halls
Rnd5: (2-0) Merfolk
Rnd6: (1-2) Jund Loam, partially on camera, I played very badly g3.
Rnd7: (2-1) RUG Delver
Rnd8: (1-2) Belcher
Rnd9: (2-0) Sneak and Show

I'm pretty happy with the result since I didn't want to play the deck. For some reason I have nivmagus elemental on the mind but couldn't hammer out a decklist that I was happy with in time.

Congrats on the 6-3 and camera match, was watching the stream at that point until about round 7, when I saw Jund -vs- Loam Jund I think I even tweeted on the different Jund lists that have come out in the past few months.

Esper3k
03-12-2013, 09:07 AM
I'm not trolling, serious question. Do you guys actually enjoy playing Jund? Every time I've played it or played against it, no matter the matchup, it seems like there's about 2 non-forced decisions a game for Jund - there's no way to manipulate your draw! Literally like rolling dice.

Edit:
I'm sorry, this post was definitely in no way reasonable. Maybe I'm not playing with/against against the right decks. I guess the combo matchup was interactive.

It's fine. There are sometimes when you have to consider if you disrupt with say Hymn on T2 or do you go ahead and drop Bob. There's also some situations where you have to decide if you want to hold on to BBE or just immediately cast it, etc.

Also, winning is always fun :)

DrHealex
03-12-2013, 12:24 PM
I'm not trolling, serious question. Do you guys actually enjoy playing Jund? Every time I've played it or played against it, no matter the matchup, it seems like there's about 2 non-forced decisions a game for Jund - there's no way to manipulate your draw! Literally like rolling dice!

I can manipulate my draws, I have a sylvan library :p
Besides why manipulate draws when you can just draw multiple cards a turn ie BE and Bob, and PF to an extent.

NathanS2k
03-12-2013, 09:49 PM
Forgot to post here after playing Jund at SCG Las Vegas.

Round 1: (0-2) Mono Green Infect
Round 2: (0-2) Combo Elves
Round 3: (2-1) Sneak and Show
Round 4: (2-0) Goblins
Round 5: (2-0) Merfolks
Round 6: (2-0) Vial Knights
Round 7: (2-0) Merfolks
Round 8: ID to top 32, my opponents said he was playing Mono Black Pox.

5-2-1, pretty happy with the results. Played against almost every tribal deck in Legacy and almost slaughtered them all. :laugh:

Raggedjoe
03-13-2013, 04:49 AM
Forgot to post here after playing Jund at SCG Las Vegas.

Round 1: (0-2) Mono Green Infect
Round 2: (0-2) Combo Elves
Round 3: (2-1) Sneak and Show
Round 4: (2-0) Goblins
Round 5: (2-0) Merfolks
Round 6: (2-0) Vial Knights
Round 7: (2-0) Merfolks
Round 8: ID to top 32, my opponents said he was playing Mono Black Pox.

5-2-1, pretty happy with the results. Played against almost every tribal deck in Legacy and almost slaughtered them all. :laugh:

That's pretty funny. Shame you didn't beat Infect though.

Here's what I've been running:

Creatures:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Savaging Ooze
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bloodbraid Elf

Spells:
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Inquisition of Kozelik
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers:
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless

Lands:
3 Wasteland
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Taiga
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Mountain

I'm really solid on this main deck, especially the Oozes. I really like the extra bodies and the effect. My sideboard is a bit more in flux. Currently I have:

Sideboard:
4 Duress
4 Pyroblast
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Pyroclasm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Liliana of the Veil

I played around with Needle for a while, but wasn't really thrilled with it. I recent dropped Grdge for +1 Duress, +1 Pyroblast. I never really found Grudge all that useful. I lose to Vortex more than Jitte. Speaking of which, what do people think about running enchantment hate? Either Naturalize or Seal of Primorium? Someone mentioned to me that maybe running Seals could be good. Cascading into Seal of Primordium sure beats cascading into Naturalize when they don't have anything to hit on the table to hit. On the downside, it's at sorcery speed to cast (but not to use).

I'm running Pyroclasm largely for Lingering Souls but I also bring it in in the mirror. If I fall behind in board position it can really turn things around, plus I'm running a few more bodies than most Jund decks (and those bodies survive Pyroclasm!) In the mirror I sideboard -2 Thoughtseize, -2 IoK, +1 Liliana, +1 Hymn, +2 Pyroclasm.

What matchups do you guys take out Bolts and discard for? In general I drop discard against creature decks and bolts against blue decks.

One card I'm on the fence about is Darkblast. Has anyone tried it out? Sure it's not as good as PFire, but in PFless buds it might be a nice way for a bit of extra removal. Would you guys want to play it in the side (-1 Pyroblast) or in the main (-1 Library)?

H0tmilk
03-13-2013, 10:24 AM
This is the list I went with for Mythic games on 3/9/13

3rd Place

Deck Name: Jund
Mainboard:
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Bayou
3 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Badlands
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Punishing Fire
3 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library
Sideboard:
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Krosan Grip
2 Engineered Plague
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Golgari Charm
1 Abrupt Decay


I took 3rd only losing to T.E.S. in the top 4.
Round 1 mike with U/W rest helm combo 2-0
G1 I kept disrupting his had taking key cards for him and I got to ultimate lili 2 times making chose lands or RiP while beating him down with BBE and BoB
G2 I sided in my 4th abrupt and 2 Kgrips I think that was it
anyway abrupt and kgrips did the work and I kept up the creature beats to win it.

Round 2 Trevor with Maverick 2-0
G1 he had to mul to 4 and a turn 2 hymn put him far behind he scooped it up after I laid some creatures down
G2 If I remember right I sided in 2 jitte and 1 sword I kept taking apart his hand with thoughtseize and hymn as well and killing his jitte with abrupt, Goyf dmg to win it

Round 3 Theo with Goblins(He took 5th place) 2-1
G1 I was abole to get the removal and hand disruption needed to win
G2 I sided in Eplague and 4th abrupt. I didnt find any of my sideboard and he was able to get vial online and kill me
G3 I put in my Kgrips If I remember right I took TS out because of life loss anyway I got him with Plague and killed his vials

Round 4 BuG JC him and I go back and forth with who wins seems like every month we play each other(either way it was a great match) 2-1
G1 as we joked about the person who won the rol wins the game. I think my hymn also played a part in it taking some key cards.
G2 he sided in his sinkholes and surgicals( sinkhole is so brutal) I sided in my surgicals 4th abrupt and 1 jitte 1 sword (I think) anyway he tore apart my land base and I couldnt play anything
G3 I open with thoughtsieze and take a surgical turn 2 I hymn and get an undergound and wasteland I was holding 2 surgical so I take both his lands out (hah eat that sinkhole lol) he still hit some of my lands with his sinkholes but I managed to recover with DRS and drawing into lands until I finally beat him
Great games as usual JC.
R5 ID
R6 ID

Top 8 I play Dan on U/R delver 2-1
Another great match
G1 I took it with hand disruption and Goyfs
G2 he burned me out price hit me hard and bob ate my life away helping him.
G3 I got Eplague and cage out at the end It came down to him drawing a burn spell or me swinging with 3 goyfs he didn't draw a burn so I took the match
Great games Dan
Top 4
TES Si Ning Li 0-2
I can honestly say I have never played against TES with any deck so I didn't have a clue how to beat it.
I was on the play. I put in a fetch and passed I was hoping he would drain himself to bolt range so I could kill him before he could kill me, but it didn't happen he got a turn 1 win
G2 I had to mul to 5 and still only had a bolt so he won again turn 1
Either way I had a good day had lots of fun and made 3rd place with Punishing Jund
I think the turn out was 36 people.

Darkness
03-13-2013, 11:08 AM
As both a Jund and TES player your main goal is to stick and early threat down and use discard to disassemble their hands. Unlike 2-3 card combo decks, deck needs as many cards as they have to go off. Also some tips against good TES players. 1. They won't go down to bolt range. 2 They will play their 0 mana cost artifacts to avoid them being discarded. 3 Proactively Bolt if it doesn't compromise using your mana effectively. Putting pressure on them is > than waiting to "get them" with bolt. 4. Maelstrom Pulse is live with empty the warrens. (One of many reasons it's a one of in my SB). Jund is definitely not favored here, even post board they just have a lot of utility to go oops I win. Play discard, wastelands, threat (goyf is your best bet) and hope you live. Also, Mindbreak Trap will not win you the game, currently TES's main SB plans for Jund is switch nothing in and out which means silence is also real. You might get lucky if they don't probe or attempt discard against you game two and or three but 4 Silence and 3 discard effects generally allow TES to beat MBT.

Also Ning is one of the Best TES players in the US

H0tmilk
03-13-2013, 11:35 AM
I really appreciate the tips it is nice to know some options, like I said I have never played against TES. Ning is a great player I have seen him make top results many times in the area. I was definitely a good day and my first top 8 in legacy. Anyhow congrats Cook and Ning on 1st and 2nd.

LEH
03-14-2013, 01:15 PM
That's pretty funny. Shame you didn't beat Infect though.

Here's what I've been running:

Creatures:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Savaging Ooze
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bloodbraid Elf

Spells:
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Inquisition of Kozelik
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers:
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless

Lands:
3 Wasteland
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Taiga
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Mountain

I'm really solid on this main deck, especially the Oozes. I really like the extra bodies and the effect. My sideboard is a bit more in flux. Currently I have:

Sideboard:
4 Duress
4 Pyroblast
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Pyroclasm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Liliana of the Veil

I played around with Needle for a while, but wasn't really thrilled with it. I recent dropped Grdge for +1 Duress, +1 Pyroblast. I never really found Grudge all that useful. I lose to Vortex more than Jitte. Speaking of which, what do people think about running enchantment hate? Either Naturalize or Seal of Primorium? Someone mentioned to me that maybe running Seals could be good. Cascading into Seal of Primordium sure beats cascading into Naturalize when they don't have anything to hit on the table to hit. On the downside, it's at sorcery speed to cast (but not to use).

I'm running Pyroclasm largely for Lingering Souls but I also bring it in in the mirror. If I fall behind in board position it can really turn things around, plus I'm running a few more bodies than most Jund decks (and those bodies survive Pyroclasm!) In the mirror I sideboard -2 Thoughtseize, -2 IoK, +1 Liliana, +1 Hymn, +2 Pyroclasm.

What matchups do you guys take out Bolts and discard for? In general I drop discard against creature decks and bolts against blue decks.

One card I'm on the fence about is Darkblast. Has anyone tried it out? Sure it's not as good as PFire, but in PFless buds it might be a nice way for a bit of extra removal. Would you guys want to play it in the side (-1 Pyroblast) or in the main (-1 Library)?

I'd say Seal of Primordium is the better option due to the Cascade from BBE. Pyroclasm seems good, it's strong in the mirror if you're behind as most of the creatures in Jund are x/2 or x/1s. I tend to keep Lightning Bolt in against most MUs unless I desperately need the space for something that is crippling to my opponent - Bolt is one of those cards that's not terrible against most MUs as it tends to speed up your clock. Discard generally comes out against creature based decks for additional removal/ extra creatures. I'm running a PF list but if I wasn't I'd probably be running it, it's good against a lot of key creatures in the format. If I were to run it it would be in SB for Goblins, Mirror, D&T etc. I'd probably replace it with the 4th Liliana of the Veil myself but the 4th Pyroblast would do.

Raggedjoe
03-15-2013, 06:02 PM
I'd say Seal of Primordium is the better option due to the Cascade from BBE. Pyroclasm seems good, it's strong in the mirror if you're behind as most of the creatures in Jund are x/2 or x/1s. I tend to keep Lightning Bolt in against most MUs unless I desperately need the space for something that is crippling to my opponent - Bolt is one of those cards that's not terrible against most MUs as it tends to speed up your clock. Discard generally comes out against creature based decks for additional removal/ extra creatures. I'm running a PF list but if I wasn't I'd probably be running it, it's good against a lot of key creatures in the format. If I were to run it it would be in SB for Goblins, Mirror, D&T etc. I'd probably replace it with the 4th Liliana of the Veil myself but the 4th Pyroblast would do.

Liliana is just so sick against combo. But then, I am packing 4 Duress and 2 Hymn already. I also like it in matches against other Liliana decks, as those matchups tend to end up being "Whoever resolves Liliana last wins".

What do you take out against Miracles? My go-to plan is to replace IoK with Duress and Bolt with REB.

LEH
03-16-2013, 08:52 AM
Liliana is just so sick against combo. But then, I am packing 4 Duress and 2 Hymn already. I also like it in matches against other Liliana decks, as those matchups tend to end up being "Whoever resolves Liliana last wins".

What do you take out against Miracles? My go-to plan is to replace IoK with Duress and Bolt with REB.

Against Miracles I usually bring in Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast for Punishing Fire I'd take out Lightning Bolt for Duress and 2 Hymn to Tourach for a Maelstrom Pulse and Abrupt Decay.

lordofthepit
03-16-2013, 09:04 AM
Against Miracles I usually bring in Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast for Punishing Fire I'd take out Lightning Bolt for Duress and 2 Hymn to Tourach for a Maelstrom Pulse and Abrupt Decay.

I would never board out Punishing Fire against Miracles. Sure, they can land a Counterbalance (if they even keep this in) or a Rest in Peace, but you have 4 Abrupt Decays, and they have no other ways to interact with Punishing Fire.

Their Jaces and any creatures besides multiple Angel tokens are just irrelevant if you have Punishing Fire going.

Barbed Blightning
03-16-2013, 12:00 PM
I would never board out Punishing Fire against Miracles. Sure, they can land a Counterbalance (if they even keep this in) or a Rest in Peace, but you have 4 Abrupt Decays, and they have no other ways to interact with Punishing Fire.

Their Jaces and any creatures besides multiple Angel tokens are just irrelevant if you have Punishing Fire going.

Agreed. Pfire is how you totally obliterate that deck, not just beat it.

LEH
03-16-2013, 12:00 PM
I would never board out Punishing Fire against Miracles. Sure, they can land a Counterbalance (if they even keep this in) or a Rest in Peace, but you have 4 Abrupt Decays, and they have no other ways to interact with Punishing Fire.

Their Jaces and any creatures besides multiple Angel tokens are just irrelevant if you have Punishing Fire going.

Personally, I take out PF because I don't find the combo that relevant in the Miracle MU, most lists I've come across run 1 maybe 2 Vendilion Clique, a Venser, Shaper Savant and maybe the odd Snapcaster Mage but by the average numbers of creatures in Miracles I find I'm more likely, or just as likely, going to come across Rest in Peace than creatures (exempting Angel tokens, of course). It's ok against Jace, the Mind Sculptor but so is Discard, Pulse and REB/Pyroblast which all have more targets in general in this MU, so I prefer them.

Sansian
03-16-2013, 12:43 PM
Punishing fire also hits players... That's the most relevant target most of the time in a control match up. They run 2~ RiPs, but 3-7 creatures that all die to fires. I'd rather leave the fires in and risk not having a decay than running out of gas with my opponent at 6 life. It's effectively uncounterable and just gets better as the game progresses.

w4rlock
03-18-2013, 11:25 AM
How do we Punishing Jund players beat Show and Tell/Belcher when we're on the draw? I know mindbreak trap is always the go to, but TES and others are Probing-->Silence and get around it. Random, niche old cards as an answer would be awesome, but any suggestions are appreciated.

Megadeus
03-18-2013, 11:26 AM
How do we Punishing Jund players beat Show and Tell/Belcher when we're on the draw? I know mindbreak trap is always the go to, but TES and others are Probing-->Silence and get around it. Random, niche old cards as an answer would be awesome, but any suggestions are appreciated.

Try not to die on T1. I mean sometimes they just have it. That is the risk you run when playing a non force of will deck. SNT you can SB a whole mess of cards for SNT.

.:saturno:.
03-18-2013, 03:24 PM
VS S&T:
1. esnaring bridge.
2. pithing needle on whatever he show of S&T.
3. reb/pyroblast
3. discards and HOPE!

razvan
03-18-2013, 03:48 PM
Miracles can be difficult, but I wouldn't worry about it too much. Punishing Fire goes a long way. They are slow and spend a lot of mana sculpting their hand. I wouldn't overdo it on REB like effects, since their annoying cards are white not blue.

Show and Tell, however, is incredibly aggravating. It is right up there with the most annoying of all decks, Burn.

In the past tournaments, I went 12-6, 4 of those losses came to Show and Tell. Here is the short version:

M1: He goes off on turn 2 game 1, and turn 3 game 3, after I mulled to 5 game 3.
M2: He goes off on turn 2 game 1, and turn 2 game 2, with Leyline of Sanctity.
M3: He goes off on turn 1 game 1, and game 3 I start with 3 lands, and proceed to draw 11/12 lands including fetches. He had leylines games 2 and 3, but kept less good hands with Leylines.
M4: Win G1, G2 he shows Griselbrand, I show Ensnaring Bridge, he draws 14 then gets Wipe Away. G3 he is drawing dead, Sneaks in Griselbrand (at one life with one Emrakul in hand), then doesn't sacrifice him end of turn and neither of us notices (yes, that happened). I would have won this game since I KNEW HE WAS DRAWING DEAD, but I am stupid.

So yeah. 3 of the 12 wins also came vs. show and tell. Should have been 4.

I really do not have a solution for it right now. Leyline of Sanctity is a huge problem. We cannot use discard, nor can we use burn. They do have outs for Ensnaring Bridge so I am not sure how good that is going forward.

Also, M2 above, he was playing Hive Mind. That deck is even MORE annoying, but REB's do help. Sadly, they have Pact of Negation so... I do not know.

Pithing Needle / Phyrexian Revoker is not a bad idea but what do you name? Griselbrand or Sneak Attack. If you have a response for Show and Tell (or many responses), then naming Sneak Attack is the way to go.

Anyway, I am honestly thinking about bringing in 15 cards vs. Show and Tell at this point.

Megadeus
03-18-2013, 05:04 PM
Miracles can be difficult, but I wouldn't worry about it too much. Punishing Fire goes a long way. They are slow and spend a lot of mana sculpting their hand. I wouldn't overdo it on REB like effects, since their annoying cards are white not blue.

Show and Tell, however, is incredibly aggravating. It is right up there with the most annoying of all decks, Burn.

In the past tournaments, I went 12-6, 4 of those losses came to Show and Tell. Here is the short version:

M1: He goes off on turn 2 game 1, and turn 3 game 3, after I mulled to 5 game 3.
M2: He goes off on turn 2 game 1, and turn 2 game 2, with Leyline of Sanctity.
M3: He goes off on turn 1 game 1, and game 3 I start with 3 lands, and proceed to draw 11/12 lands including fetches. He had leylines games 2 and 3, but kept less good hands with Leylines.
M4: Win G1, G2 he shows Griselbrand, I show Ensnaring Bridge, he draws 14 then gets Wipe Away. G3 he is drawing dead, Sneaks in Griselbrand (at one life with one Emrakul in hand), then doesn't sacrifice him end of turn and neither of us notices (yes, that happened). I would have won this game since I KNEW HE WAS DRAWING DEAD, but I am stupid.

So yeah. 3 of the 12 wins also came vs. show and tell. Should have been 4.

I really do not have a solution for it right now. Leyline of Sanctity is a huge problem. We cannot use discard, nor can we use burn. They do have outs for Ensnaring Bridge so I am not sure how good that is going forward.

Also, M2 above, he was playing Hive Mind. That deck is even MORE annoying, but REB's do help. Sadly, they have Pact of Negation so... I do not know.

Pithing Needle / Phyrexian Revoker is not a bad idea but what do you name? Griselbrand or Sneak Attack. If you have a response for Show and Tell (or many responses), then naming Sneak Attack is the way to go.

Anyway, I am honestly thinking about bringing in 15 cards vs. Show and Tell at this point.

It sounds like you play in the shittiest meta ever. If I had to play SNT 7 times out of 18 games I would an hero. You need to start getting desperate. My favorite is the dredge anti SNT card the vindicate angel. What ever it is. SNT? Ill pop your permanent and have a 5/5 flier. Thnx

aluisiocsantos
03-18-2013, 05:32 PM
I think the best plan of action for SnT matchup would be having a starting hand with either/both Ensnaring Bridge and REB. And then wait with that land. Possibly with a fetchland to sugest youre just playing a slow hand, instead of waiting for SaT. Just my two cents.

Raggedjoe
03-18-2013, 07:04 PM
I've updated my sideboard a bit since my last post, but I currently have a total of 10 cards that are effective against S&T. 3 Pyroblast, 4 Duress, 3 SE. I take out Bolt, Decay, and 2 Ooze. That's enough to give us a fighting chance against S&T. Against non-blue combo, leave in the Bolts and don't bring in Pyroblast.

It seems a bit excessive, but SE and Pyro are usable in a great variety of matches, and we are generally favored in any match that none of those cards are viable in. Just in case, I have 1 Darkblast, 2 Grudge, and 2 Pyroclasm. I think that this is a really strong sideboard for a non PF list. PF lists obviously wouldn't need Darkblast and might not need the Pyroclasm either.

Burn is really the only deck that screws me over completely now. TES is slightly unfavorable and S&T is actually slightly favorable with so much hate.

Someone mentioned Leyline in regards to S&T? That hasn't been an issue here, and I hope it never catches on. I have no idea how to fight them if they do that. I actually think that the best option is probably Humility or ORing. Yes, I know, but Bridge only stops Emmy, it doesn't stop Gristle or Omni. Humility and ORing at least stop two of the three win-cons. ORing is also sort of almost castable.

razvan
03-18-2013, 09:41 PM
It sounds like you play in the shittiest meta ever. If I had to play SNT 7 times out of 18 games I would an hero. You need to start getting desperate. My favorite is the dredge anti SNT card the vindicate angel. What ever it is. SNT? Ill pop your permanent and have a 5/5 flier. Thnx
The other Jund player faced zero and won a lotus. It's random. And I would take SnT over burn.

I have been thinking about random angels and the like but it doesn't deal with the Sneak Attack issue. But it might need to be that way. We need to brainstorm a bit more. If we can solve this issue somewhat, I do think this would be the best deck ever.

defector
03-18-2013, 11:11 PM
This is my current Jund SB:

Umezawa's Jitte X2
Pyroblast X3
Extirpate X3
Krosan Grip X2
Duress X2
Hymn to Tourach X1
Maelstrom Pulse X2

Vs SnT I bring Pyro X3, Extirpate X3, Grip X2, Duress X2, Hymn X1. -4 Bolt, -4 AD, -2 BBE. This is what I have for the regular build. I don't know that running P Fires changes things too radically as usually the 3 P Fires are part of the 8 Bolt/AD plan. I have tested this and its still behind, but Split Second is nice and Extirpate can seal up games. It's not ideal, but its a start. Just my .02.
cheers
defector

w4rlock
03-19-2013, 10:14 AM
I agree with defector. Our best bet now is just some combination of thoughtseize/duress and pyroblast and hope to win the die roll. We all know MBT doesn't stop SnT and TES continues to maindeck silence. Pithing Needle continues to do work for me, as a catch all for sneak, led, belcher, grizzle, etc.

My current sideboard which has done well for me over the last few tournaments:

3 pyroblast
3 Engineered plague
3 Duress
2 Pithing Needle
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

BlackStarDeceiver
03-19-2013, 10:43 AM
Needle may name LED but won't stop it, maybe you get lucky because someone borrowed the deck and doesn't know this ;)

Anyways, Needle seems very good at what you want it to do.

I've been testing Leyline of the Void yesterday because there is a rise in fast Graveyard Combo decks like Tin Fins and Undercity Spy as well as Petal Reanimator and it was pretty good actually. Might switch to Faeries though.

defector
03-19-2013, 01:22 PM
Needle may not get LED, but Warlock has a point, its a great time to play needle. I think Pun Jund has made Tribal almost unplayable, so I feel like the E Plagues are probably safe to drop for now which gives us a few slots for burn/combo. I think at the end of the day discard the hell out of them and if you lose if they get a god draw, sucks but i dont know any other answer. I wish we had some good hate bears like Mav did. Ive even dicked around with gsz for teeg, is there any decent monogreen bear or hybrid green bear out there that we can take advantage of?

Barbed Blightning
03-19-2013, 02:16 PM
Needle may not get LED, but Warlock has a point, its a great time to play needle. I think Pun Jund has made Tribal almost unplayable, so I feel like the E Plagues are probably safe to drop for now which gives us a few slots for burn/combo. I think at the end of the day discard the hell out of them and if you lose if they get a god draw, sucks but i dont know any other answer. I wish we had some good hate bears like Mav did. Ive even dicked around with gsz for teeg, is there any decent monogreen bear or hybrid green bear out there that we can take advantage of?

Aside from Ooze? None. GW gets the hatebears to fight spells from the grixis spectrum. That's just how it be

razvan
03-19-2013, 04:49 PM
I am debating playing Reverent Silence or Nature's Claim. Yes, it messes up our clock, but being able to use discard is HUGE (not as much burn as we have to side out a good chunk of it).

NC is obviously better against other things, but Reverent Silence smokes multiple Leylines, and although I wouldn't bring it (or much of anything) in against Miracles, it does a number on that deck too, Rest in Peace and Counterbalances and other annoying enchantments.

edit: Furthermore, fuck burn. Literally. I guess it is my own fault, but I refuse to devote sideboard space to that deck unless it is useful against something else as well. It's such a fringe deck that no one will see past the first few rounds, it cannot win, but it beats Jund like Vitaliy Klitschko. I hate losing to it, and I just hope I can beat everything else, which I think we have at least a passable chance.

Also, two separate people have used and suggested Sinkholes. The card is actually pretty sweet overall, going first and Sinkholing something turn 2 is pretty sick. It might be too cute, but at this point I am trying anything for the SnT match-up. Even something stupid like 4 Needles, 3 Revokers and 8 Red Elemental Blasts? Show and Tell, sup.

--
edit #2: What about... white? I realize it's madness at this point, but white has solid options. Stuff like Thalia and Leonid Arbiter, Gaddock Teeg (Teeg and REBs are enough to stop the stupid SnT). Putting one (and ONLY one) Scrubland or Savannah in the deck somewhere, and having all fetchlands being able to snag it, and putting in something like 4-5 White hate? Might or might not work, but you never know.

Barbed Blightning
03-19-2013, 07:00 PM
I am debating playing Reverent Silence or Nature's Claim. Yes, it messes up our clock, but being able to use discard is HUGE (not as much burn as we have to side out a good chunk of it).

NC is obviously better against other things, but Reverent Silence smokes multiple Leylines, and although I wouldn't bring it (or much of anything) in against Miracles, it does a number on that deck too, Rest in Peace and Counterbalances and other annoying enchantments.

edit: Furthermore, fuck burn. Literally. I guess it is my own fault, but I refuse to devote sideboard space to that deck unless it is useful against something else as well. It's such a fringe deck that no one will see past the first few rounds, it cannot win, but it beats Jund like Vitaliy Klitschko. I hate losing to it, and I just hope I can beat everything else, which I think we have at least a passable chance.

Also, two separate people have used and suggested Sinkholes. The card is actually pretty sweet overall, going first and Sinkholing something turn 2 is pretty sick. It might be too cute, but at this point I am trying anything for the SnT match-up. Even something stupid like 4 Needles, 3 Revokers and 8 Red Elemental Blasts? Show and Tell, sup.

--
edit #2: What about... white? I realize it's madness at this point, but white has solid options. Stuff like Thalia and Leonid Arbiter, Gaddock Teeg (Teeg and REBs are enough to stop the stupid SnT). Putting one (and ONLY one) Scrubland or Savannah in the deck somewhere, and having all fetchlands being able to snag it, and putting in something like 4-5 White hate? Might or might not work, but you never know.

Ooooor we can just have 4 hymn postboard. Honestly, all that discard is going to be good enough against Burn and S&T. In the case of Leyline, it's a false sense of security; I've seen combo players mull down until they have one, thinking they'll win with all that protection; then I clobbered them with Tarmogoyfs and Lilianas because they kept a hand of durdles.

That's not to say they don't have an operable hand with Leyline out; however, taking about splashing white is lunacy.

And fuck me if I still Thoughtseize a burn player and take their PoPs or Bolts. I get the argument "aw, it's just a free shock for them, that's so bad" all the goddamn time. You know what? They're still going to burn you if you don't.

tl;dr: Jund does what it does. Sure, you lose to Burn and S&T more often, but Burn loses to Maverick and S&T loses to BUG, while we obliterate those matchups. No point in trying to change the deck or make it something it's not; the most we can do is turn into the skid.

defector
03-19-2013, 07:02 PM
Ive looked at white a lot, but 4 colors is tough. We could cascade them in otherwise looking at Chains or N Void to try and manage this stuff.

aluisiocsantos
03-19-2013, 09:20 PM
Also, all in all, A thoughtseize can evade you taking a Bolt, thats already one damage, ha. Also, since usually we have a couple Duress on the board, might as well board some in trade of the seizes for added security.

Shawon
03-20-2013, 01:23 PM
What do you guys think of a transformational sideboard to fight combo/SNT/Miracles/Burn?

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Sinkhole
3 Dark Ritual
1 Nether Void

Hypnotic Specter circumvents Leyline of Sanctity and it's a threat. DRS and Dark Ritual help cast it much earlier in the game to make it more relevant against the decks you board in Specter.

As mentioned before, Sinkhole coupled with Wasteland provide a unique angle of attack that your (combo) opponent is probably unprepared for.

Chalice seems like a no-brainer against storm combo. It's not meant to singelhandely stop storm combo, but it's definitely annoying if you play on turn 1 with 0 counters. Even if you run the risk of nullifying cards in your hand, remember that if you have DRS you can still run your cards that would otherwise be countered by Chalice directly into Chalice so they hit the graveyard and give you some fuel for DRS in case of desperate situations. I don't think Chalice wouldn't be bad idea to bring against Miracles either. If you set it at 2, then they have to get rid of it before casting Energy Field or more importantly Rest in Peace. Setting it at 1 counter isn't bad either since you can stop Swords to Plowshares, Brainstorms, and possibly Top.

Nether Void could be replaced by an additional Sinkhole or miscellaneous hate card, but the fact that it can act as the final nail to the coffin burying combo's hopes is enticing. Like Chalice, Nether Void still allows you to resolve Abrupt Decay, and better yet, Nether Void can't be targeted by your opponent's Abrupt Decay!

Dark Ritual assists in casting some of the sb cards, but keep in mind Dark Ritual allows you to cast Liliana on turn 1 also.

What's convenient about this sb is all of these cards are all completely live against Burn. Last I checked, Jund has been having problems with Burn. Try this sb out against Burn.

defector
03-20-2013, 08:40 PM
We do have access to one hate bear in phyrexian revoker.
Is he worth considering? He gets sneak attack, led, grisel etc. I dont know if i could dig in on 4 but he does directly addrress a variety of issues and for us is probably better than needle.

razvan
03-20-2013, 10:37 PM
I like Revoker. It still can't stop SnT off Ancient Tomb on the draw, and I am not sure if it will ever stop LED (it CAN, it will just never get to do it on turn 2 very likely), but it beats!

Might have a 1/2 split of Needle / Revoker.

Barbed Blightning
03-21-2013, 08:20 AM
Revoker was my favorite creature in Death and Taxes (back when I played it), but having Mother of Runes made him insane.

That said, he's still quite good. Using him effectively, however, requires a t1 shaman and even then he prevents hymn in that same turn.

I also use needle for control, esp. Countertop decks, and only S&T if I can fit them.

aluisiocsantos
03-21-2013, 01:19 PM
I was going to point out that Revoker dies, but then I remember we are talking about Jund, which means there are just so many targets to care about, that he just might get away alive!

razvan
03-21-2013, 01:19 PM
Well, you have to prioritize too. If you CAN use discard, use it, then estimate how the hand will go from there. I am not sure whether you blindly use Revoker or Hymn on turn 2 first. I guess it would depend. Casing Revoker on Griselbrand is probably the correct play, but then they can Sneak in Emrakul and murder you. Hymn can deal with that, but sometimes it misses.

It's not a good scenario at all.


I was going to point out that Revoker dies, but then I remember we are talking about Jund, which means there are just so many targets to care about, that he just might get away alive!

To what? In show and tell i mean.

aluisiocsantos
03-21-2013, 01:23 PM
Not SaT but probably less effective in Miracles, with StP/Terminus.

Barbed Blightning
03-21-2013, 01:31 PM
Not SaT but probably less effective in Miracles, with StP/Terminus.

Yes, that was always the issue in D&T. Granted, Jund is ACTUALLY filled with must-answer threats, not just some that pretend to be. So revoker may live.

The issue with revoker is that you often want him ASAP, since hymn can miss. Honestly, the only reason I would consider him is LED. Even then, storm has decay/chain of vapor/the ability to not give two shits and storm off anyway.

Esper3k
03-21-2013, 01:47 PM
I like Revoker. It still can't stop SnT off Ancient Tomb on the draw, and I am not sure if it will ever stop LED (it CAN, it will just never get to do it on turn 2 very likely), but it beats!

Might have a 1/2 split of Needle / Revoker.


Sure you can, all you have to do is have Revoker in your hand.

If they Show & Tell and drop Griselbrand / Sneak Attack and you drop Revoker off of their Show & Tell, you can name whatever they dropped and they don't get a chance to respond to it since Revoker is an As it enters the battlefield ability and not a triggered ability.

Shawon
03-21-2013, 01:48 PM
Casing Revoker on Griselbrand is probably the correct play, but then they can Sneak in Emrakul and murder you. Hymn can deal with that, but sometimes it misses.

Casting Phyrexian Revoker and naming Sneak Attack is the better play. If you play your Revoker off of SnT, then naming Griselbrand is more sensible, but I question the usefulness of Revoker in the context of facing a 7/7 flying lifelinker that can still attack and that you can't get rid of unless you top deck or Cascade into Liliana. Those are some bad odds.

defector
03-21-2013, 03:09 PM
I think Revoker has room in a package. He alone isnt a reliable silver bullet. Vs combo if you brought in revoker x4 hymn x1 duress x2 and extirpate x3, your probably ok. Always lead with hd and use revoker to seal up the disruption. If they turn 0/1 you then you lose. Ces la vie. An all in anti combo revoker board could look like this:

Revoker x4
Extirpate x3
Duess x2
Hymn x1
Reb x2
Jitte x3 for burn wtfn
That would aim squarely at our bad mu and assume we beat all blue decks without sb assistance.

Lorenzo767
03-21-2013, 04:25 PM
I'm new of this deck but i have some question, probably dumb:
-Why no one is already playing 2-3 Pernicious Deed in SB instead of Engineered Plague vs tribal and aggro decks?
-Wich one is the better SB configuration vs COMBO? More discard or something like Mindbreak trap?

Thank you! :)

Shawon
03-21-2013, 06:15 PM
I'm new of this deck but i have some question, probably dumb:
-Why no one is already playing 2-3 Pernicious Deed in SB instead of Engineered Plague vs tribal and aggro decks?
-Wich one is the better SB configuration vs COMBO? More discard or something like Mindbreak trap?

Thank you! :)

A) Pernicious Deed is too slow against tribal, especially Elves.
B) Yesterday I brought up the idea of boarding in Dark Ritual + Hyppie to turn up the speed and amount of discard against combo. Hyppie not only has the benefit of being a threat, but it also makes your combo opponent discard even if they have white Leyline. Chalice is also good to stop turn 1 tomfoolery from Storm or even TinFins. Sadly, no one has yet to give any input on the idea. Mindbreak Trap isn't bad, but it's very narrow since it's practically only useful against really fast combo decks. Even then, it's not guaranteed to make you win against Storm since they can just Duress you instead of going off turn 1.

Esper3k
03-21-2013, 06:20 PM
Yeah really depends on what type of combo you're trying to beat.

General cards that are good against combo are hand disruption like Duress.

REB/Pyroblast is fine against blue based combo (Show & Tell, High Tide, etc.)

Graveyard hate against the yard decks.

Mindbreak Trap is fine against the Storm decks.

Really, it depends on what you want to beat.

aluisiocsantos
03-21-2013, 08:30 PM
I was thinking about using a bit of Thorn of Amethyst tech to try stopping matches such as Omnitell and Storm, I wonder how effectively it could be used in other matches as well.

How do you guys feel about the use of Ensnaring Bridge?

w4rlock
03-21-2013, 10:14 PM
Sideboarding question:

I'm having trouble figuring out not what to bring in, but rather what to take out of the maindeck for sideboard cards. I play the stock punishing fire list of BBD, but would appreciate input on what to take out in certain key matchups such as BUG, SnT, Esper Stoneblade and ANT/TES/Belcher

As I mentioned earlier, my current sideboard is as follows:

3 pyroblast
2 Engineered plague
3 Duress
2 Pithing Needle
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Esper3k
03-22-2013, 02:46 AM
For combo, I'd take out:

Abrupt Decay
Punishing Fire
Lightning Bolt

in that order.

Liliana isn't as good vs Esper, imo since they run Lingering Souls and generally aren't running big creatures so her -2 isn't as effective. Pyroblast and Ancient Grudge are good here to stop Jace and Equipment.

Against BUG, it probably matters what type of BUG they're playing. Against something like Team America with Tombstalkers and Goyfs, your Pfires isn't going to be as effective since you can't really kill anything other than Delver.

razvan
03-22-2013, 10:12 PM
Fire Kills Delver and Bob, it can kill Tombstalker with Lightning Bolt, and can win Goyf wars. I wouldn't take it out.

Raggedjoe
03-23-2013, 12:40 AM
I was thinking about using a bit of Thorn of Amethyst tech to try stopping matches such as Omnitell and Storm, I wonder how effectively it could be used in other matches as well.

How do you guys feel about the use of Ensnaring Bridge?

ORing is much better. Bridge only stops Emmy, it doesn't really stop Gristel. Even if Gristel can't attack, he can still draw cards and still block. Obviously Bridge is useless against Omni

Razvan, goyf wars aren't a huge deal against Team America IMO because you need to keep thier graveyard as small as possible due to Tombstalker. I actually ditch 2 IoK and 2 Hymn for 1 Pulse and 3 Pyroblast. I don't play PF and opt for a few Ooze (great in my meta and decent overall IMO) plus Garruk instead. If I did, I'd cut PF instead though.

Esper3k, I agree completely. Plus it's hard to keep PFire going against Wasteland and DRS.

Has anyone else had success running Garruk? I think he's the best spell we have against miracles.

Barbed Blightning
03-23-2013, 09:23 AM
Surgical is also powerful vs team America.

Amazingxkcd
03-23-2013, 12:06 PM
Surgical is also powerful vs team America.

If you are playing surgical, you might as well play extirpate since we already have easy access to black sources.

Barbed Blightning
03-23-2013, 02:30 PM
If you are playing surgical, you might as well play extirpate since we already have easy access to black sources.

...why is that obvious? Surgical is free. It can be casted after a hymn on turn two reliably. Split second is by no means that great an upgrade

sdematt
03-23-2013, 05:39 PM
...why is that obvious? Surgical is free. It can be casted after a hymn on turn two reliably. Split second is by no means that great an upgrade

Surgical and Extirpate are two entirely different cards. One is not a strict upgrade of the other.

-Matt

razvan
03-24-2013, 10:53 AM
I think Surgical is better. It is very rare that the split-second is relevant. Don't get me wrong, it is relevant, but the zero CC is more often so. Even when Dredge goes first and goes crazy with LED/Faithless, it's nice to be able to do something.

FTW
03-24-2013, 07:49 PM
The primer says that there are no truly bad matchups, that the advantage of this deck is that no single card really shuts it down.

I don't know if this has been addressed somewhere in between (at the very least the primer needs updating), or maybe it was missed because the offending decks see very little play right now. But with Jund now a DTB, let's not forget about this card: Blood Moon.

With an 8 Blood Moons.dec opponent (Dragon Stompy, Imperial Painter, etc.) dropping Blood Moon turn 1 on the play, Jund basically scoops. You have 3 basics, high colour requirements for your spells, and a very low probability of drawing the right basics naturally if you don't have a fetch to crack in response. Lightning Bolt and Grim Lavamancer alone are not gonna get you there, although they do at least kill Magus of the Moon if opponent has not already dropped Chalice of the Void@1.

If you're on the play, you can drop DRS first or hope to rip their Moons or acceleration with turn 1 discard. But if they have 2 moon effects, topdeck one later, or blow up DRS, then you're still in trouble. Once Blood Moon is in play, your ways to kill it involve both black AND green mana (Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom Pulse, EE @ 3). This means that DRS alone does not give you enough colored mana to blow it up. You would need BOTH singleton basics or DRS and a basic swamp/forest. You could try to use DRS just to generate colored mana to cast other spells, but you will eventually run out of land fodder (no lands will be hitting the GY with Moon out) and your deck is majorly slowed down by that restriction. So killing the Moon is a must. If you're on the play, you can go Turn 1 fetch basic swamp and cast DRS, safely having Abrupt Decay mana up as long as you don't see removal or graveyard hate. But the bottom line is that even if you get to go first and be proactive, that card is still a headache.

BUG, RUG, Bant and other 3-color lists with flimsy manabases all run Force of Will, so they can better interact with turn 1 Blood Moon. This may be why Blood Moon is not considered a legitimate threat to those decks. But a deck with only hand disruption has a much harder time holding it off.

I'm not saying this is a reason not to play Jund; I'm just saying I think Blood Moon deserves a nod in the primer.

aluisiocsantos
03-24-2013, 08:40 PM
I think that you gotta have to behave as playing against a combo deck, behavior-wise. Get lucky to be on the play and discard it from their hands, or pray that they don't top deck it right away. Luckily any discard can do the trick. That or play having in mind leaving two manas untapped.

I also play with a self brewed RW Sneak Attack deck but on a Stompy route, and at one time versus a BUG I played Blood Moon. In response they simply tapped BG and played Abrupt Decay afterwards.

Barbed Blightning
03-24-2013, 10:49 PM
Blood Moon.deck crumples to miracles and Esper, since both have a high basic count anyway (and are both DTB). Sure blood man CAN kill jund, but its going to have a hard time vs blue decks.Lets not forget bolt and pfire, too; they can kill magus easily.

Yes it deserves a nod, but it is by no means a matchup that leaves jund totally out in the cold.

bruizar
03-25-2013, 02:37 AM
The primer says that there are no truly bad matchups, that the advantage of this deck is that no single card really shuts it down.

I don't know if this has been addressed somewhere in between (at the very least the primer needs updating), or maybe it was missed because the offending decks see very little play right now. But with Jund now a DTB, let's not forget about this card: Blood Moon.

With an 8 Blood Moons.dec opponent (Dragon Stompy, Imperial Painter, etc.) dropping Blood Moon turn 1 on the play, Jund basically scoops. You have 3 basics, high colour requirements for your spells, and a very low probability of drawing the right basics naturally if you don't have a fetch to crack in response. Lightning Bolt and Grim Lavamancer alone are not gonna get you there, although they do at least kill Magus of the Moon if opponent has not already dropped Chalice of the Void@1.

If you're on the play, you can drop DRS first or hope to rip their Moons or acceleration with turn 1 discard. But if they have 2 moon effects, topdeck one later, or blow up DRS, then you're still in trouble. Once Blood Moon is in play, your ways to kill it involve both black AND green mana (Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom Pulse, EE @ 3). This means that DRS alone does not give you enough colored mana to blow it up. You would need BOTH singleton basics or DRS and a basic swamp/forest. You could try to use DRS just to generate colored mana to cast other spells, but you will eventually run out of land fodder (no lands will be hitting the GY with Moon out) and your deck is majorly slowed down by that restriction. So killing the Moon is a must. If you're on the play, you can go Turn 1 fetch basic swamp and cast DRS, safely having Abrupt Decay mana up as long as you don't see removal or graveyard hate. But the bottom line is that even if you get to go first and be proactive, that card is still a headache.

BUG, RUG, Bant and other 3-color lists with flimsy manabases all run Force of Will, so they can better interact with turn 1 Blood Moon. This may be why Blood Moon is not considered a legitimate threat to those decks. But a deck with only hand disruption has a much harder time holding it off.

I'm not saying this is a reason not to play Jund; I'm just saying I think Blood Moon deserves a nod in the primer.

So true, Jund is one of the reasons why I'm playing a Blood Moon deck. Also, the idea that blood moon decks die horribly to blue is greatly overstated. Blood Moons can be sided out for Red Elemental Blasts (jace/permission) or Sulfur Elemental (lingering souls).

razvan
03-25-2013, 08:22 AM
Burn is a really bad match-up too. I didn't emphasize it as much in the primer, but it is truly atrocious.

But it has the same issue as a Blood Moon deck that's specialized to beat Jund: that is ALL it can do. Yes, I know Burn once won a SCG open, but generally, decks that are "metagamed" to beat Jund are only an issue by pure luck in the first rounds of a tournament.

Furthermore, if I anticipate a Blood Moon (nothing I can do about it turn 1), then I can fetch basics, or hold up Abrupt Decay mana, which I would anyway against painter. Magus of the Moon dies to Bolt and Punishing Fire, so he is less of a problem, and none of those cards go out against Painter.

As for burn packing Blood Moon against Jund, that's just too much (I know you didn't mention it, but others have). Their deck is so good against us, diluting it with an useless card (I fetch Forest and Swamp anyway to hedge against Price, and the Shaman is the only card that might get us out).

Dragon Stompy could be annoying, but I have yet to see anyone play it this 201x years :)

aluisiocsantos
03-25-2013, 01:15 PM
In other hand one of the reasons I play Blood Moon on my sneak deck is becaus eit fucks up many decks imo, that aren't called Jund, such as canadian threshold, BUG, Esper and so on. I wouldn't be surprised if all Burn decks started packing this in, same for Goblins. They might lose wastelands and Rishadas but in other hand they autowin the match if it lands.

On other hand, having Deathrite Shaman might really save one's ass in this situation, and to be fair, Blood Moon has be played really soon to be able to affect Jund, or else it wouldn't be too much of a hassle to deal with.

defector
03-26-2013, 08:39 PM
Ive started running 3 lilli/1 garruk relengless as my pw package and am really enjoying it so far. I've cut the p fire engine because i think it worked and depopulted the meta of tribal decks. I run Extirpate over SE currently because i keep running into High Tide. If dredge gets me in two tutns i pretty much just lose. Im experimenting with two Mirri's Guile main and am liking them. I dont know if they'll last, but the really work well with fetch lands and Bob.

Also congrats to Michael Bryant for top 8 SCG KC with Pun Jund!! We were in a lil drought there:)

Raggedjoe
03-27-2013, 01:06 PM
Ive started running 3 lilli/1 garruk relengless as my pw package and am really enjoying it so far. I've cut the p fire engine because i think it worked and depopulted the meta of tribal decks. I run Extirpate over SE currently because i keep running into High Tide. If dredge gets me in two tutns i pretty much just lose. Im experimenting with two Mirri's Guile main and am liking them. I dont know if they'll last, but the really work well with fetch lands and Bob.

Also congrats to Michael Bryant for top 8 SCG KC with Pun Jund!! We were in a lil drought there:)

I've been considering switching to Extirpate, not for the Tide matchup but for S&T. People running 4 Leylines makes beating that deck quite hard. We need every little nudge we can get IMO.

Shawon
03-27-2013, 07:19 PM
I've been considering switching to Extirpate, not for the Tide matchup but for S&T. People running 4 Leylines makes beating that deck quite hard. We need every little nudge we can get IMO.

Try Hypnotic Specter post-board, with Dark Ritual. Hypnotic Specter not only increases your threat density and threat of discard, but it also circumvents your opponent's Leyline. Dark Ritual is worth running alongside Hypnotic Specter against combo because no combo player wants to see a turn 1 Hyppie, or a turn 1 Liliana, or a turn 1 Thoughtseize followed by a Hymn to Tourach, or... you get what I'm saying.

Barbed Blightning
03-27-2013, 07:41 PM
Try Hypnotic Specter post-board, with Dark Ritual. Hypnotic Specter not only increases your threat density and threat of discard, but it also circumvents your opponent's Leyline. Dark Ritual is worth running alongside Hypnotic Specter against combo because no combo player wants to see a turn 1 Hyppie, or a turn 1 Liliana, or a turn 1 Thoughtseize followed by a Hymn to Tourach, or... you get what I'm saying.

...you're living in the fantasy world where you have dark rit AND those other cards (be it one or two) and a black source. What happens when you draw dark rit with an empty hand? Or open with a specter but only one black source and no DRS or rit?

It's too unstable a plan. Sure sometimes they open with a leyline and a god hand... but usually they mull to a poor one "with protection". Play golgari charm if you're that worried about leyline; at least that card is versatile

pavlaugh
03-27-2013, 08:17 PM
Rather than hippie, an early phyrexian negator used to be pretty good against combo. Might be outdated now with power creep. If you're looking for something not responsive to leyline (not something to destroy it) , negator seems like a better option. Though I'd probably go with duress plus enchantment removal.

defector
03-27-2013, 08:20 PM
I love the Hippi, but I don t think he's ever going to be legacy playable. I have grips and extirpates for the leyline of sanc snt decks, grip is good if they rush a sneak attack out to protect it from discard. We're behind but not too far behind and legacy combo is consistent, but not that consistent, playtest and just battle that shit!

Shawon
03-27-2013, 08:20 PM
...you're living in the fantasy world where you have dark rit AND those other cards (be it one or two) and a black source. What happens when you draw dark rit with an empty hand? Or open with a specter but only one black source and no DRS or rit?

What sort of empty hand are you imagining I would have against combo, if I am removing all of the cards that would be dead anyway against combo for Dark Ritual + Hyppie? I'll be specific: against SnT, I would remove 1 BBE, 4 Lightning Bolt, and 3 Abrupt Decay for 4 Ritual + 4 Hyppie. I'm not sacrificing other live cards just to make Hyppie and Dark Ritual more active.

Just to be clear, I'm only endorsing the idea of SB (<- if that also wasn't clear) Hyppie + Dark Ritual in "normal" Jund, not Punishing Jund. Normal Jund has enough consistency to find black mana and runs a high enough density of black cards to make an opening hand Dark Ritual relevant. It's a no-brainer that Dark Ritual is useless if you have already hit your threshold of mana production, but that's what we have DRS have late-game.

Barbed Blightning
03-27-2013, 08:48 PM
What sort of empty hand are you imagining I would have against combo, if I am removing all of the cards that would be dead anyway against combo for Dark Ritual + Hyppie? I'll be specific: against SnT, I would remove 1 BBE, 4 Lightning Bolt, and 3 Abrupt Decay for 4 Ritual + 4 Hyppie. I'm not sacrificing other live cards just to make Hyppie and Dark Ritual more active.

Just to be clear, I'm only endorsing the idea of SB (<- if that also wasn't clear) Hyppie + Dark Ritual in "normal" Jund, not Punishing Jund. Normal Jund has enough consistency to find black mana and runs a high enough density of black cards to make an opening hand Dark Ritual relevant. It's a no-brainer that Dark Ritual is useless if you have already hit your threshold of mana production, but that's what we have DRS have late-game.

It's a bad idea, to be blunt. You're eating up 8 (EIGHT) slots in the side for a combo that is difficult to set up and isn't all that good to begin with, imo. Even if you're casting hymn, you are not gaining card advantage (trading two for two).

And what sort of hand? Double ritual, fetch, drs, goyf, decay, waste. Or spectre, drs, forest, waste, fetch, lilly, bob.

Spectre needs to shave some pounds cmc-wise before I'd consider him--and never would I run rit.

This

LEH
03-27-2013, 09:09 PM
I agree with the consensus so far on the Hippy Dark Rit suggestion. 1) it's a lot of spaces taken up that are highly sought after for various other troublesome MUs. 2) Dark Ritual opens you up to bad 2:1s. 3) Hippy isn't even that good against fast combo. 4) Dark Ritual makes a terrible top deck/Cascade. When it comes to combo it's much more reliable of a plan to board in Duress'/Red Elemental Blasts, and to max out on discard rather than adding unnecessary fast mana tricks like Rit into Specter.

defector
03-27-2013, 09:09 PM
@Pavlaugh: Dont say phyexian negator youll get me all misty eyed:) slamming one down in a major would be nothing short of awesome!!! But im sure your right that it wouldnt be good enough. Ahhh nostalgic sigh:)

danyul
03-27-2013, 09:11 PM
At our last weekly event I went 4-0 against 4 rounds of combo. 2-1 HiveMind. 2-1 ANT. 2-0 OmniShow. 2-0 Reanimator.

I'm humblebragging a little bit, and I guess I'm also a bit of a lucksack. But I mostly mention this to give you all hope! Combo is beatable! Kinda! Sometimes!

I don't play the deck often enough to give play advice to you guys. But I boarded in 3 Duress, 3 Pyroblast, 2 Slaughter Games for each matchup. I also brought in a Nihil Spellbomb in the last round and it was relevant. I was on the Non-Punishing version.

On topic: I think Hypnotic Specter is too slow. And boarding Dark Rituals just smells of lamesauce.

Shawon
03-27-2013, 09:14 PM
It's a bad idea, to be blunt. You're eating up 8 (EIGHT) slots in the side for a combo that is difficult to set up and isn't all that good to begin with, imo. Even if you're casting hymn, you are not gaining card advantage (trading two for two).

Why is it a bad idea? This is a bad post, to be blunt, because you're just being vague and adding nothing specific (or at least concrete) to your argument on why you think Hyppie + Dark Ritual is bad. Also, emphasizing that I run EIGHT slots against combo to support your argument that what I run is ridiculous is.... ridiculous. Unless you're bringing in more than fifteen cards between post-board games, there is no status-quo on how many cards you should bring to address a bad matchup. I would take your argument more seriously if you were making the point that the SB has limited space for other pertinent matchups, but you didn't.


And what sort of hand? Double ritual, fetch, drs, goyf, decay, waste. Or spectre, drs, forest, waste, fetch, lilly, bob.

These are laughably bad examples, and it's making it difficult to take you seriously at this point.

The first hand involves Abrupt Decay. I don't know about you, but Abrupt Decay is pretty irrelevant against most combo decks. That Decay would most likely be a Hyppie if you actually follow my board plans (or a 3rd Ritual, but unlikely), so that hand would actually be amazing against combo because you can go Fetch, Ritual, Ritual, Hppie + DRS, and follow up on turn 2 with a Goyf and Wasteland. I would kill to have that hand against combo.

And what are you trying to prove with that second hand? That second hand is a god hand to have, even without the Hyppie. This seriously leads me to believe that you are just talking out of your ass just to shut down the suggestion of trying a strategy (Dark Ritual + Hyppie) that could possibly address a matchup that people are repeatedly asking questions on how to address it. Even if I'm in the wrong (I'm not), you're adding nothing constructive by immediately shooting my idea down with poorly constructed theorycrafting.

This is actually an argument I can take seriously:


I agree with the consensus so far on the Hippy Dark Rit suggestion. 1) it's a lot of spaces taken up that are highly sought after for various other troublesome MUs. 2) Dark Ritual opens you up to bad 2:1s. 3) Hippy isn't even that good against fast combo. 4) Dark Ritual makes a terrible top deck/Cascade. When it comes to combo it's much more reliable of a plan to board in Duress'/Red Elemental Blasts, and to max out on discard rather than adding unnecessary fast mana tricks like Rit into Specter.

because this poster brings up a point I did not consider: the possibility of Cascading into Dark Ritual. However, I would argue against 1) by saying that Hypnotic Specter would also be relevant against control, 2) your combo opponent isn't going to 2:1 you since they either just win or lose, and 3) then what is good enough against fast combo (Mindbreak Trap)?

Barbed Blightning
03-27-2013, 10:59 PM
Why is it a bad idea? This is a bad post, to be blunt, because you're just being vague and adding nothing specific (or at least concrete) to your argument on why you think Hyppie + Dark Ritual is bad. Also, emphasizing that I run EIGHT slots against combo to support your argument that what I run is ridiculous is.... ridiculous. Unless you're bringing in more than fifteen cards between post-board games, there is no status-quo on how many cards you should bring to address a bad matchup. I would take your argument more seriously if you were making the point that the SB has limited space for other pertinent matchups, but you didn't.

These are laughably bad examples, and it's making it difficult to take you seriously at this point.

The first hand involves Abrupt Decay. I don't know about you, but Abrupt Decay is pretty irrelevant against most combo decks. That Decay would most likely be a Hyppie if you actually follow my board plans (or a 3rd Ritual, but unlikely), so that hand would actually be amazing against combo because you can go Fetch, Ritual, Ritual, Hppie + DRS, and follow up on turn 2 with a Goyf and Wasteland. I would kill to have that hand against combo.

And what are you trying to prove with that second hand? That second hand is a god hand to have, even without the Hyppie. This seriously leads me to believe that you are just talking out of your ass just to shut down the suggestion of trying a strategy (Dark Ritual + Hyppie) that could possibly address a matchup that people are repeatedly asking questions on how to address it. Even if I'm in the wrong (I'm not), you're adding nothing constructive by immediately shooting my idea down with poorly constructed http://i.imgur.com/I5MOCFi.jpg .

This is actually an argument I can take seriously:

because this poster brings up a point I did not consider: the possibility of Cascading into Dark Ritual. However, I would argue against 1) by saying that Hypnotic Specter would also be relevant against control, 2) your combo opponent isn't going to 2:1 you since they either just win or lose, and 3) then what is good enough against fast combo (Mindbreak Trap)?

It's delusional to run dark rit in Jund. This deck is DTB because it contains either:

2/X-for-1 effects (hymn, pulse, BBE, PFire)

Or

The best cards within it's spectrum and curve

Dark rit goes against both of these. It is card disadvantage a majority of the time, and is lesser in power than either Inquisition or Duress. Yes, it can enable powerful turn 1 plays... that sneakshow can simply daze/fow.

As for spectre... I mean, I could run delirium skeins or underworld dreams. That doesn't make it a good decision.

What is your side board anyway? What besides duress is cuttable for this spectre package?

Shawon
03-27-2013, 11:46 PM
What is your side board anyway? What besides duress is cuttable for this spectre package?

I am trying out this SB aimed to fix the combo matchup while still being relatively useful in other matchups:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Extirpate

For reference, I am running a normal Jund build with 3 MD Sinkhole.

The Extirpates are flex, but they are also just generally good as they complement discard or removal. Chalice is a good alternative to Mindbreak Trap that also addresses the Burn matchup. Since I'm not running P-Fires or running additional creature removal in the SB, the Chalices can come in as additional hate against Delver decks.

Barbed Blightning
03-28-2013, 12:18 AM
I am trying out this SB aimed to fix the combo matchup while still being relatively useful in other matchups:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Extirpate

For reference, I am running a normal Jund build with 3 MD Sinkhole.

The Extirpates are flex, but they are also just generally good as they complement discard or removal. Chalice is a good alternative to Mindbreak Trap that conveniently addresses the Burn matchup. Since I'm not running P-Fires or running additional creature removal in the SB, the Chalices can come in as additional hate against Delver decks.

So, no real graveyard hate, no tribal hate, no pithing needle (which shuts out control decks swiftly) and no Red Blasts. I'm sure this SB is good for storm combo, but for dredge/reanimator/Tin Fins? less so. Yes, I see extirpate; that isn't enough to stop dredge at the very least and requires you to be reactionary, leaving mana up. Surgical is better for this reason.

Chalice does not belong in this deck, imo, in the main or side. Awful to cascade into and, even if you take BBE out, it's going to interfere with our game plan if set at anything but zero. And to say it "addresses the burn matchup" is folly; Price of Progress, Fireblast and Flame Rift are their best tool against us, and if you're trying to get to four mana to drop a Chalice @2, you're better off going stompy.

My opinions on Dark Rit and Spectre have already been posted.

And sinkhole main? Really? I play 4 in the side of my Team America list, but Tempo and Midrange Aggro have totally different needs. What could you be cutting to fit in sinkholes?

Shawon
03-28-2013, 12:48 AM
So, no real graveyard hate, no tribal hate, no pithing needle (which shuts out control decks swiftly) and no Red Blasts. I'm sure this SB is good for storm combo, but for dredge/reanimator/Tin Fins? less so. Yes, I see extirpate; that isn't enough to stop dredge at the very least and requires you to be reactionary, leaving mana up. Surgical is better for this reason.

If my SB plan is to board 8+ cards against combo, then I probably wouldn't chalk up the Dredge matchup to rely on just 3 SB cards. This SB has no substantial game against Dredge, but as for Tin Fins, Extirpate is good hate on its own and that deck can't really combo off if you cast Chalice for 0 unless they bounce Chalice.


And to say it "addresses the burn matchup" is folly; Price of Progress, Fireblast and Flame Rift are their best tool against us, and if you're trying to get to four mana to drop a Chalice @2, you're better off going stompy.

Chalice still stops a good portion of the deck.


My opinions on Dark Rit and Spectre have already been posted.

Yes, opinions based on straw man logic ("what if you don't have black mana/cards?!") and cherry-picking ("SnT has Daze/FoW!").

Barbed Blightning
03-28-2013, 03:23 AM
If my SB plan is to board 8+ cards against combo, then I probably wouldn't chalk up the Dredge matchup to rely on just 3 SB cards. This SB has no substantial game against Dredge, but as for Tin Fins, Extirpate is good hate on its own and that deck can't really combo off if you cast Chalice for 0 unless they bounce Chalice.



Chalice still stops a good portion of the deck.



Yes, opinions based on straw man logic ("what if you don't have black mana/cards?!") and cherry-picking ("SnT has Daze/FoW!").

...no, you bring in 4 cards against combo and 4 cards to enable your sideboard against combo. Dark Ritual does NOTHING on it's own. It's a dead draw if it has nothing to enable. Unless adding BBB to my mana pool suddenly and inexplicably makes my opponent discard his or her hand. If that's the case, I've obviously been playing Magic wrong.

Chalice is still much weaker than Pithing Needle or Engineered Plague, cards that are necessary for a large event like an Open or GP, especially the latter. Goblins is still a deck and, for those not running punishing fire, can still overpower Jund with the right sequencing. Even against Elves, Plague buys you precious time.

As for burn, here are all the cards that deck runs that give zero shits about Chalice @ 1:

Price of Progress
Flame Rift
Fireblast
Sulfuric Vortex
Keldon Maurauders
Rift Bolt
Hellspark Elemental
Searing Blaze
Barbarian Ring

From the Board: Smash to Smithereens, though you might hoodwink them enough to avoid it game two. Still unlikely you'll have a game three regardless.


My views are sound, whether you're willing to see that or not. Mulligans are all luck (save for something like Serum Powder I guess), and this dark ritual plan relies on luck in part to be effective. It leads to more explosive plays, yes, but causes any countermagic (or in the case of spectre, also removal) you run into to be that much more effective against you. Again, in Jund, you want to be 2-for-1-ing THEM, not you.

And what part of "using one card to combo into another may not always work" is straw man? It's PRECISELY the argument against Rit+Spectre; without Rit, Spectre is a summoning-sick Liliana that goes live on turn three at the very soonest. Yes, a turn one spectre can, hypothetically, lock a combo player out through a Leyline, but that player (esp. Show and Tell, as a 2-card combo) can also ignore it and go off anyway. Following rit+spectre up with discard helps, yes, but our deck has 4 wastes and X taiga/grove, meaning double black for Hymn can still get us in a pinch, especially since we sacrificed our T1 DRS to smack down Rit+Spectre. Thoughtseize can still be cast, obviously, but if there's a leyline out then we're solely relying on Spectre (and maybe a Liliana next turn) to get us there. I'd rather have the REB to just counter the S&T.

And it's not cherry-picking. Show and Tell decks typically run FoW and Daze. So does Reanimator. High Tide has FoW and even Pact of Negation in some lists. Each also has both Ponder and Brainstorm to ensure they have the countermagic they need to protect themselves. That's what they do.

You say you want to improve our combo matchup; this is not the path to that solution. Trying to go transformitive with our side sounds good (especially with this deck, as I'm sure every Jund player wants to wreck combo as hard as they do fair decks) but needs hard proof and testing before it can be found legitimate. Do you have any tournament results or Top 8's to reinforce your theory?

lambert101
03-28-2013, 08:07 AM
@Shawon
I saw the following as your board.

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Extirpate

What combo players are you going against. Spector looks terrible. Chalice of the Void shuts down more than half your deck and sideboard. Not trying to be mean but this board looks like trash. Play what you want but I do not know how you are betting combo by 2 for 1 ing yourself to get a 2/2 flying discard source out while storm and sneak and show are going to be like ok...storm 10 or huge monster. Again do not take it as a personal attack and play what you want.

razvan
03-28-2013, 08:42 AM
Why is it a bad idea? This is a bad post, to be blunt, because you're just being vague and adding nothing specific (or at least concrete) to your argument on why you think Hyppie + Dark Ritual is bad. Also, emphasizing that I run EIGHT slots against combo to support your argument that what I run is ridiculous is.... ridiculous. Unless you're bringing in more than fifteen cards between post-board games, there is no status-quo on how many cards you should bring to address a bad matchup. I would take your argument more seriously if you were making the point that the SB has limited space for other pertinent matchups, but you didn't.
Here is why it is bad.

First, it is too slow. They have a LOT of cards they do not need. They need two cards to go off, sometimes even only one if you don't have Sneak Attack destruction, which you do not. This is why they still cast Ponder / Brainstorm through Chains of Mephistopheles if they have a Leyline. They can discard a lot before it affects their ability to win.

Secondly, one-shot acceleration is generally bad in a control deck or midrange deck. It obviously is necessary in some combo decks and can be good in aggro.

Bringing it in against Control is insane. It is actively bad. You sometimes take out one-shot discard because it is all about value. The games go long, and drawing a meaningless Ritual later is really bad. You bring in REBs to deal with MUST-DEAL stuff like Jace or CB that will get through your discard.

Finally, yes, cascading into it isn't great. BBB can only cast another Hippie or Liliana (who is better anyway).

aluisiocsantos
03-28-2013, 11:00 AM
Mana, dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Hymn to Tourach, Hymn to Tourach. Oh no, I ran out of stuff do for the rest of the game : /

Also in another direction, did you see this list:

GPT Strasbourg - Raffa di puegnago (BS) Olympus#2
Number of Players : 43
Date: 17/03/2013
Deck Name: Jund Position: 1
Jund Matteo Brusaferri

Creatures [16]
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants [10]
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire

Sorceries [7]
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize

Planeswalkers [3]
3 Liliana of the Veil


Artifacts [2]
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Lands [22]
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Taiga
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Bayou
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Slaughter Games
2 Confusion in the Ranks
1 Pernicious Deed

I've seen Confusion in the Ranks work very well in a Goblins deck here in Brazil during last year's Nationals, specially well vs Sneak Show. Maybe an alternative?

Shawon
03-28-2013, 05:08 PM
Here is why it is bad...

I can understand why you and others would think Dark Ritual + Hypnotic Specter are counterintuitive to the deck's principles, but I don't buy the 'too slow' argument when the very reason I'm running the two cards is to make discard faster against combo. The only argument that I am willing to buy is that Dark Ritual and/or Hypnotic Specter aren't worth the slots dedicated to improving combo in exchange for weakening tribal/graveyard/etc.

defector
03-28-2013, 05:43 PM
Build it, test it, run it. The nice thing about this game is that its empirical. Smash combo decks with it and silence your critics.

razvan
03-28-2013, 05:59 PM
I can understand why you and others would think Dark Ritual + Hypnotic Specter are counterintuitive to the deck's principles, but I don't buy the 'too slow' argument when the very reason I'm running the two cards is to make discard faster against combo. The only argument that I am willing to buy is that Dark Ritual and/or Hypnotic Specter aren't worth the slots dedicated to improving combo in exchange for weakening tribal/graveyard/etc.
There was more reasons why it is bad, but I think I explained the ones you are challenging already, and so have others.

You did bring this up. It kills your sideboard. Yes, I do advocate heavy sideboarding for Show and Tell, but the other cards should be useful in other match-ups. REBs for example, more Thoughtseizes, Enchantment destruction for Leyline and maybe Sneak Attack, Pithing Needle, stuff like that. Even dedicated anti-SnT cards like Ensnaring Bridge (that I maintain does not help), only takes up 3 slots, and *can* win outright if they do not have an out. Putting 8 cards, 4 of which are mana, is insane. You are dedicating over 50% of your sideboard to something that, even in the best case scenario, is not that effective. This is the problem.

A dedicated hate sideboard card should win the game when you play it, baring them digging out with few answers. Leyline of the Void against Dredge is a good example. Ensnaring Bridge against stuff that cannot answer it (Merfolk, Show and Tell, both without bounce). Hyppie doesn't do that. He will at most force them to discard 3 cards before they go off, at the cost of 2 to you. They will discard cards that do not matter such as extra creatures, extra counterspells, maybe extra land or extra filtering... because they know they do not need any of that against Jund.

Now, you say that it can be enough, and you are correct, there is situations where it is. Usually it is followed by a Hymn to Tourach and Liliana. So I will not fault you for trying, and if you do, I would love to hear of your results. You can also honestly just test this match-up with a friend (or 2-fist it) if you cannot get a reasonable sample space from a tournament (you cannot).

In fact, what you could do (which is what I sometimes do) is just pre-make your hand. Each of you starts with 1-7 cards of your choice (in this case I recommend 3), then draws up to 7 normally. This allows you to test edge scenarios that you want, and see how effective it is. In your case:

You: Fetchland, Ritual, Hippie
SnT: SnT, Land, ? (whatever, maybe a real Show and Tell player can chime in)

Stuff like that is interesting. You cannot base an entire analysis JUST on it, but it will reveal a lot of information.

Barbed Blightning
03-28-2013, 06:00 PM
I can understand why you and others would think Dark Ritual + Hypnotic Specter are counterintuitive to the deck's principles, but I don't buy the 'too slow' argument when the very reason I'm running the two cards is to make discard faster against combo. The only argument that I am willing to buy is that Dark Ritual and/or Hypnotic Specter aren't worth the slots dedicated to improving combo in exchange for weakening tribal/graveyard/etc.

Spectre is slow on it's own, though. Why can't you see that? Yes, Dark Rit ramps you into it on turn one, but without rit it's dead weight. Even with rits, you run the risk of stalling out, as aluisiocsantos said above.


again, I ask that you supply data that reinforces your design choices. Tournament results, top 8's, data from testing; otherwise your argument is essentially all opinion. Saying that you're running dark rit to accelerate into discard vs. combo isn't sufficient proof.

And if you aren't willing to listen to criticism or counterarguments then go over to the Salvation with your posts. I'm sure they'd all love it.

@Confusion in the Ranks: I like the card for the hilarity of stealing an Emrakul or Omniscience. The issue is Grizzlebees. Even in Gobs, where you have instant-speed dudes, they can still respond with the draw effect. It needs some testing, but it could be good, maybe even useful in other matchups than S&T?

Lord Gibbo
03-29-2013, 09:57 AM
Mana, dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Hymn to Tourach, Hymn to Tourach. Oh no, I ran out of stuff do for the rest of the game : /

Also in another direction, did you see this list:

GPT Strasbourg - Raffa di puegnago (BS) Olympus#2
Number of Players : 43
Date: 17/03/2013
Deck Name: Jund Position: 1
Jund Matteo Brusaferri

Creatures [16]
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants [10]
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire

Sorceries [7]
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize

Planeswalkers [3]
3 Liliana of the Veil


Artifacts [2]
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Lands [22]
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Taiga
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Bayou
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Slaughter Games
2 Confusion in the Ranks
1 Pernicious Deed

I've seen Confusion in the Ranks work very well in a Goblins deck here in Brazil during last year's Nationals, specially well vs Sneak Show. Maybe an alternative?

Wow, that's me! :laugh:
I tried Confusion in the Rank but I didn't like it so much... This is not a Goblin deck ans some time you are creatureless. In this case, Confusion sucks...
I prefere Angel of Despair.
Anyways I'm not running Angel or Confusion anymore. S&T is a bad MU also with Angel so I prefere not to waste SB slot for it...

defector
03-29-2013, 04:21 PM
The snt player could choose: snt lotus petal sol land as his three. I think that would give you good testing results and may expose the weakness in the hippi strategy:) taking the piss, but half heartedlg, just jam as many games as you can write down elements central to winning/losing then you can kind of see trends for what works/doesnt. Good lyck.

spellpierce
04-03-2013, 02:29 AM
Hi guys, any idea how to sideboard for the mirror? I'm playing punishing jund and it seems that punishing fire is the key to beat mirror (and other midranges).

LEH
04-03-2013, 07:06 AM
Hi guys, any idea how to sideboard for the mirror? I'm playing punishing jund and it seems that punishing fire is the key to beat mirror (and other midranges).

I try to maximise on threats and answers vs the mirror but essentially the Jund mirror comes down to who makes the better plays - like saving Bloodbraid Elf for maximum effect, etc. (i.e. when opponent has both cards in hand and a creature in play so whatever BBE Cascades into provides value) Personally, I like to bring in Umezawa's Jitte, Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse in order to have as many answers to my opponent's threats as possible. I'll generally take out Thoughtseize and/or Hymn to Tourach depending on who I'm playing (as different people play Jund differently or have more sideboard options for the mirror). If you're playing against a Punishing Fire version then some number of Surgical Extraction should be brought in as an answer to it - as it's brutal in the mirror due to taking out every creature in the deck except Tarmogoyf - it also wins Goyf wars.

razvan
04-03-2013, 10:46 AM
I wouldn't take out Hymn, although if you have a lot to bring in, maybe. I also wouldn't bother bringing in that much.

Even the single card discard, which normally gets taken out, isn't the worst thing in the world. Being able to snag a Dark Confidant or a BBE is pretty good.

Cards like Sylvan Library if unanswered will win by themselves. If any player gets to untap with Dark Confidant (another reason to keep Thoughtseize), they will very likely win.

aluisiocsantos
04-03-2013, 01:06 PM
I'd rather take out Thoughtseize than hymn to tourach going by that the biggest thing in Jund is using 2 for 1s. And losing that advantage vs a deck that relies o nit is already having less edge. Besides, that 2 damage points from the discard is gonna be one less Punishing Fire for the them to hit you with.

LEH
04-03-2013, 02:21 PM
Some people literally empty their hand as soon as possible so Hymn can be a terrible top deck late in the game verses some players, against those players I'd rather have Thoughtseize so I would side out Hymn. Against the players that tend to ride out their threats Hymn is the better card because they tend to have more business in their hand, so I'd side out Thoughtseize. From my experience, discard tends to be the dead cards in the mirror and removal is key in the Jund mirror as it's always going to be relevant due to Jund being almost entirely dependent on creatures to win. That's my logic behind sideboarding.

zulander
04-03-2013, 08:12 PM
How many people still play wasteland in PFires Jund?

spellpierce
04-03-2013, 08:51 PM
I try to maximise on threats and answers vs the mirror but essentially the Jund mirror comes down to who makes the better plays - like saving Bloodbraid Elf for maximum effect, etc. (i.e. when opponent has both cards in hand and a creature in play so whatever BBE Cascades into provides value) Personally, I like to bring in Umezawa's Jitte, Abrupt Decay and Maelstrom Pulse in order to have as many answers to my opponent's threats as possible. I'll generally take out Thoughtseize and/or Hymn to Tourach depending on who I'm playing (as different people play Jund differently or have more sideboard options for the mirror). If you're playing against a Punishing Fire version then some number of Surgical Extraction should be brought in as an answer to it - as it's brutal in the mirror due to taking out every creature in the deck except Tarmogoyf - it also wins Goyf wars.

I felt Jitte is poor waste of sideboard as it doesn't do that much (I felt) against others.

anw my current board:

4 REB
3 Duress
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Chain of Mephisto
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
2 Rakdos Charm

probably can take out 2 rakdos charm for 2 surgical.

Does batterskull works? That's what I used to board in for Modern Jund tho.

My meta is very open but the better players tend to play blue (miracles/esperblade). Until recently few decided to pick up jund and it hits me that I have no idea how to board.

Barbed Blightning
04-04-2013, 01:29 AM
I felt Jitte is poor waste of sideboard as it doesn't do that much (I felt) against others.

anw my current board:

4 REB
3 Duress
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Chain of Mephisto
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
2 Rakdos Charm

probably can take out 2 rakdos charm for 2 surgical.

Does batterskull works? That's what I used to board in for Modern Jund tho.

My meta is very open but the better players tend to play blue (miracles/esperblade). Until recently few decided to pick up jund and it hits me that I have no idea how to board.

First off, put needles in there (2-3) if your meta is UW Control-heavy. Drop it on T1 on whatever is valuable (Top, Jace, SFM, etc) and proceed to crush. Even on a griselbrand against combo it's not terrible (though if a gb lands you should pray for a lilly asap).

Lord Gibbo
04-04-2013, 06:34 AM
How many people still play wasteland in PFires Jund?

I'm currently playing it, couse you need Wasteland to win the mirror.
That's why I have a Life from the Loam in my sideboard.

Raggedjoe
04-04-2013, 08:33 PM
I'm currently playing it, couse you need Wasteland to win the mirror.
That's why I have a Life from the Loam in my sideboard.

How are you managing the manabase with wastelands and groves?

Am I the only one who isn't playing PF Jund lol?

LEH
04-04-2013, 08:52 PM
How are you managing the manabase with wastelands and groves?

Am I the only one who isn't playing PF Jund lol?

I find that it's really not an issue as groves add two of our three colours so it really doesn't hinder the manabase all that much. Furthermore, Jund is a midrange deck so it's really not worried too much about giving our opponents a couple of points of life if required to in order to cast spells - It's not like we're splashing solely for the combo itself, over half of the deck is green or red. I run PF combo and 3 Wasteland and have only ever had an issue with my mana once.

Lord Gibbo
04-05-2013, 01:57 PM
How are you managing the manabase with wastelands and groves?

Am I the only one who isn't playing PF Jund lol?

I have been playing PF Jund since the beginning and I'll never play without PF.
If I have to choose betwin PF and Wasteland, I'll absolutely choose PF, couse you don't realy want to Waste a land on turn 2 o 3! You want to cast BBE asap!!
I Played 5 tournaments with Wasteland and I get 1 Top8, 2 Top4 and 1 1st place. In the last one I made 4-2.

Now I'm running 3 Wasteland and this is my current manabase:

1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs

I didn't find so many problems with this configuration... Obviously, some times you open hands with 1Grove and 1Wasteland and you curse every Gods you know... But it's not so frequent...

Of course this is only my opinion, not a universal true!

Stavanger
04-06-2013, 05:59 AM
SB against UW Miracles (with Misdirection and/or Divert)

How do you usually side?

DragoFireheart
04-06-2013, 08:39 AM
SB against UW Miracles (with Misdirection and/or Divert)

How do you usually side?

This seems like a matchup where Hymn would be an amazing choice. Miracles can't exactly empty their hands.

Stavanger
04-06-2013, 10:04 AM
This seems like a matchup where Hymn would be an amazing choice. Miracles can't exactly empty their hands.

Hmm, felt Hymn was the obvious out because of Divert 3 for 1 or Misdirection 3 for 2 (all in favour Miracle)

BlackStarDeceiver
04-06-2013, 06:02 PM
Out 3 Hymn, 1 Loam if you play it and 3 Bolts for 3 Pyro, 2 Needle and 1 Pulse/ 1 Grip

You can exchange Seizes with Duress as they can't be Diverted/Misdirected, if it's RIP Miracles, i like to board out 1-2 Goyfs as well.

Barbed Blightning
04-06-2013, 06:42 PM
+1 on the Duress idea, though I dislike Discard against UW Control.

I play punishing Jund, so my strategy is:

-4 Thoughtseize, -3 Hymn

+3 REB, +2 Needle, +1 BBE, +1 Sylvan Library

Maybe against Miracles I'll favor Hymn for Pfire, but I never take out Bolt; you need all the reach you can get.

aluisiocsantos
04-06-2013, 06:48 PM
Definately never board out burn spells vs UW. Especially because most of their defenses relies on creature controlling, one L. Bolt is that one turn ahead of damage you get. That's only a problem if they get Countertop online, at least until you Abrupt Decay them.

Raggedjoe
04-07-2013, 12:24 PM
I have a pair of Ooze in the main, so I actually ditch all four goyf, 2 thoughtseize, and 2 IoK for 4 Duress, 1 BBE, and 3 Pyroblast

Barbed Blightning
04-07-2013, 12:39 PM
I have a pair of Ooze in the main, so I actually ditch all four goyf, 2 thoughtseize, and 2 IoK for 4 Duress, 1 BBE, and 3 Pyroblast

Ditching goyf is a terrible, terrible idea.

spellpierce
04-07-2013, 11:31 PM
Are we talking about UW/r miracles here? Cause so far my boarding plan (that works) involve cutting the bolts. Yes they have 4 terminus and 4 STP post board, but they don't have snap. As long as you dont give them too much value out of their terminus, seems like winnable without bolts.

I cut 3 Bolts 3 Hymn (If you suspect Misd) for 4 REB, 1 Chain of mephisto, 1 ancient grudge.

dave8
04-08-2013, 09:43 AM
Your T1 play is Deathrite Shaman.
On your T2 you have both Thoughtseize and Hymn to Tourach in hand.
Assuming that you have 3 black mana available which of these do you play first? and why?

Lord Gibbo
04-08-2013, 09:54 AM
Your T1 play is Deathrite Shaman.
On your T2 you have both Thoughtseize and Hymn to Tourach in hand.
Assuming that you have 3 black mana available which of these do you play first? and why?

T1->Shaman.
T2->Thoughtseize.
Once I know my opponent's hand, I'll decide if play Himn or play Confidant/Silvan/Tarmogoyf or Punishing hig turn1 Delver...

dave8
04-08-2013, 10:45 AM
T1->Shaman.
T2->Thoughtseize.
Once I know my opponent's hand, I'll decide if play Himn or play Confidant/Silvan/Tarmogoyf or Punishing hig turn1 Delver...

Yeah ok but what if your only 2 drop is Hymn?
Because playing Thoughtseize first allows you to hit the biggest threat and then count on luck.
Otherwise you count on luck first Hymn to Tourach adn then hit the biggest threat.
Which is better? I am not sure.

Amazingxkcd
04-08-2013, 11:17 AM
Generally speaking, seizing is better since you are going to get information from his hand regardless. Even if he counters with a fow, that is telling a lot about his hand being very valuable. Say you thoughtseize, he fows. You then hymn and your chances of hitting better cards increases since there would be no reason to waste a fow on a thoughtseize unless the player was stupid or his hand was good. He is already down 2 cards as a result and unless he has a second fow, your hymn will hit well. If you are playing against a nonblue deck, similar line of thought as the information that seize gives you is worth more IMO than randomly hitting 2 cards and not really knowing what is in his hand. And if you thoughtseize and see that he really doesn't have much business, you can hold off on the hymn until later in the game and play along other lines of play as mentioned above.

lambert101
04-08-2013, 12:22 PM
can't decide between jund of team america tempo for a monthly tournament this week. I know there is going to be a pretty open meta with combo, control, agro and some home brews like pox and the gate. At work on cell. Sorry for gramar and abbreviations.

Current list is:

3 badlands
3 bayou
4 verdant
4 bloodstained
1 forest
1 swamp
4 wateland
4 grove of burnt willows

3 BBE
4 goyf
4 bob
4 DrS

3 lily 2.0
3 p.fire
4 bolt
4 decay
4 thoughtseize
3 hymn

board:
3 pyroblast
3 surgical
1 BBE
1 slyvan library
2 Plagues
2 p. needle
2 crypt
1 hymn (garruk relentless)

Thoughts?

Mastikor
04-08-2013, 01:00 PM
On Hymn vs Tseize order: I agree, Seize first. Also because it will increse the chance of Hymn hitting lands (which is usually good).

trivial_matters
04-08-2013, 03:37 PM
Yeah ok but what if your only 2 drop is Hymn?
Because playing Thoughtseize first allows you to hit the biggest threat and then count on luck.
Otherwise you count on luck first Hymn to Tourach adn then hit the biggest threat.
Which is better? I am not sure.

My thoughts:

Most people will probably say it's better to Thoughtseize and then Hymn, but I think there are exceptions. It depends on how many cards your opponent has in his hand and whether you want to deny him lands; also important is whether there's a possibility of running into counters.

Playing Thoughtseize first gives you information and allows you to act accordingly, for example by not casting Hymn that turn at all if it's not worth it. People have already mentioned this aspect.

If you want to deny lands, Thoughtseize first and then Hymn.

If your opponent has several cards in hand (say 4+), you're not expecting counters, don't want to deny lands and want to cast both cards in the same turn, then I would go Hymn and then Thoughtseize. On average, you should be getting more value like this.

Against a combo deck with counters, where the opponent having a single card or not can be the difference between losing on his turn or buying more time, I would also go Hymn and then Thoughtseize. If your Hymn gets countered you can still make him discard his most valuable card, but if Thoughtseize gets countered you have to rely on luck (this depends on hand size again, at 3 cards it might be better to Thoughtseize first, assuming a worst case 1-for-1 counter you can then decide if Hymn is needed or not).

zulander
04-08-2013, 04:10 PM
You thoughtseize first so that you don't strip their hand of cards you can hit by hymming first. It sucks when you Hymn, hit their cards, then thoughtseize, only to see they only have lands left.

lordofthepit
04-08-2013, 04:16 PM
It's almost always better to Thoughtseize before Hymning. There are some exceptions, which I'll elaborate on when I'm at a computer.

trivial_matters
04-08-2013, 04:20 PM
It's not so obvious which order is better. It depends a lot on the situation. Saying one is always correct is wrong.

EDIT: Directed mostly at zulander.

LEH
04-08-2013, 04:30 PM
It's not so obvious which order is better. It depends a lot on the situation. Saying one is always correct is wrong.

EDIT: Directed mostly at zulander.

I agree, but as a general rule of thumb Thoughtseizeing your opponent gives you information on whether or not to continue to Hymn to Tourach them so it's generally the better play.

zulander
04-08-2013, 04:34 PM
It's not so obvious which order is better. It depends a lot on the situation. Saying one is always correct is wrong.

EDIT: Directed mostly at zulander.

I didn't say it's always better did I? It's just most of the time (like 75%).

Lord Gibbo
04-08-2013, 04:35 PM
It's not so obvious which order is better. It depends a lot on the situation. Saying one is always correct is wrong.

EDIT: Directed mostly at zulander.

If I don't know my opponent's hand, I'll ALWAYS play Toughtseize before Hymn (in a situation where I have 3 black mana in a turn).

razvan
04-08-2013, 04:36 PM
It's not so obvious which order is better. It depends a lot on the situation. Saying one is always correct is wrong.
True, but in almost every relevant scenario, you TS before Hymn if you plan on casting both.

If your opponent has one card in hand, remember that 2 life is 10% of your starting total. That is very relevant. Sometimes you can just cast Hymn for one card. Often, I would use Thoughtseize as Liliana fodder and just not waste 2 life.

Often, the great advantage of Thoughtseize is casting it turn one. You get perfect information, you get to take either their biggest threat, their most potent hate, their next possibly play, or a Force/MisD so Hymn resolves.

Later on in the game, if they are not in any sort of mana issue, I hold Thoughtseize for a time where something I want to resolve something, like a BBE. Hymns, unless threatened by MisD, I often just cast as quick as I draw them if I can get two cards, or like above, even just one card (rarely).

Also note that there are matchups like Show and Tell where you fire them willy nilly, in hope of getting something... anything.

---------

Finally, a quick report. Over the past two months, I am having a ridiculous string of X-2 finishes at largerish events in Toronto (30+ players, often 40+). Two weekends ago I went 4-2 in a 42 player event... with both losses coming to RUG delver.

Now, to be fair, both were 2-1, and each player had a pretty broken opening hand in at least one of the games. This happens. I also made some mistakes in at least one match-up, according to spectators.

It might have mattered.

Furthermore, both opponents had COPIOUS copies of stifle. I must have been stifled about 15 times in the 6 games, if not more. Stifle is an extremely powerful card against Jund, it turns out.

First, your mana. I kept 3 land hands, and often ended up with zero lands. There is very little we can do about that. I cannot possibly mulligan hands containing Wasteland, 2 Duals, and 4 very relevant cards. The fact that I was never able to fetch for basic lands is a serious issue. They don't even need to rush into anything, they can just hold stifle mana open, and just delay themselves by a turn for their 1cc threat.

Secondly, they do side in Surgical Extraction for your Abrupt Decay. Turns out that's a big deal.

Their god hands are unbeatable. There is sometimes no combination of cards that can do it. This happens.

Finally, the fact that Punishing Jund needs Grove of the Burnwillows is an issue. I love Punishing Fire, but I am starting to believe it's not that great against RUG, despite being theoretically awesome (winning Goyf wars, killing Delvers, finishing them off?). Obviously being a slow and tedious card, it can seem lackluster against a powerful tempo deck, so maybe I am just still on tilt from the tournament.

I still maintain it's a great match-up, just Stifle is a serious problem. I don't know how to solve that particular issue. Just hope they don't run it and hope to get luckier with mana?

zulander
04-08-2013, 04:51 PM
Loam beats stifle, but getting loam online takes forever. I usually board out hymn and board in diabolic edict. if you win the board war then you beat rug. It's okay for them to have a few dorks early on, but once turn 4 hits you need a presence. In this matchup you have to play the control deck so make sure you are assigning roles properly.

aluisiocsantos
04-08-2013, 08:28 PM
I just got some Deathrite Shamans I was waiting from eBay, and completed my list.
Do you guys have any comment on what you think I could change? It's essentially Punishing Jund, with the sideboard aimed at combos, due to them being very present in my meta in Sao Paulo.

1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Punishing Fire

3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize

2 Sylvan Library

4 Liliana of the Veil

1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Taiga

SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 3 Duress

The reason for 3 Groves is me lacking the fourth one, but I plan to correct that before the next tourney I join. (then switching one taiga for one grove)

Barbed Blightning
04-08-2013, 08:33 PM
I just got some Deathrite Shamans I was waiting from eBay, and completed my list.
Do you guys have any comment on what you think I could change? It's essentially Punishing Jund, with the sideboard aimed at combos, due to them being very present in my meta in Sao Paulo.

1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Punishing Fire

3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize

2 Sylvan Library

4 Liliana of the Veil

1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Taiga

SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 3 Duress

The reason for 3 Groves is me lacking the fourth one, but I plan to correct that before the next tourney I join. (then switching one taiga for one grove)

You're missing 4 lightning bolt

aluisiocsantos
04-08-2013, 08:38 PM
As a former zoo player, I love L.Bolts, I just don't know what I could cut haha.

Lord Gibbo
04-09-2013, 01:49 AM
As a former zoo player, I love L.Bolts, I just don't know what I could cut haha.

I'm playing without Bolt and it's really not a issue. I love bolt, but I prefere the 4th Lily and the 4th Decay.
Try the Boltless list! I was skeptical too!

lordofthepit
04-09-2013, 04:07 AM
It's almost always better to Thoughtseize before Hymning. There are some exceptions, which I'll elaborate on when I'm at a computer.

Generally, with an unknown hand, you want to Thoughtseize before Hymning. The primary reason is that you may Hymn away all the valid Thoughtseize targets. However, there are other considerations.

If you're trying to play around Spell Snare or Spell Pierce (say with BBB available), it's often desirable to Thoughtseize first to ensure that the Hymn will resolve. Conversely, if the Hymn is more valuable, you may want to lead with Hymn to play around multiple Daze effects or Flusterstorm (if you had BBBB up). However, this is rare, and if you had such knowledge, you would probably be able to better sculpt a discard plan.

There are some instances where you don't need to play around Counterspell, but where it makes sense to lead with Hymn instead. In general, leading with Thoughtseize makes more sense when different card types are of roughly comparable utility, so that it's important to ensure that you don't blank on legal choices for Thoughtseize by leading with Hymn (in this case, "roughly comparable" is used extremely loosely). However, imagine a case where you're at 3 life, and your opponent is tapped out and has 3 Bolts and 1 land (and you can kill your opponent on your next turn assuming he doesn't topdeck the win). In this case, the Bolts have maximum utility and the lands are blanks, and you must hit all 3 Bolts to have a chance at winning (contingent on your opponent missing his topdeck). In order to maximize the chances of winning, you can lead with Hymn, which will hit two Bolts with probably 1/2, then the Thoughtseize will take the remaining Bolt. If you instead led with Thoughtseize, your Hymn has only a 1/3 chance of hitting the two remaining Bolts.

In some cases, discard has negative utility (i.e. worse than taking a blank) due to mechanics such as Madness, Dredge, cheaper flashback costs, etc., as well as random effects like Guerrilla Tactics and Obstinate Baloth, or situations where your opponent has his Progenitus stuck in his hand or is playing Reanimator without a discard outlet. These situations get a lot more complicated. If the other (i.e. at least 3) cards in your opponent's hand are so important that you must try to play Thoughtseize and Hymn in some order, and furthermore, assuming that all cards in the hand are valid choices for Thoughtseize, then it makes sense again to lead with Hymn before Thoughtseize. On the other hand, on some occasions, the risk of allowing your opponent to discard when he had no outlets may have such extreme negative utility, you would rather allow some cards to stay in hand, in which case leading with Thoughtseize is again more desirable. This is further complicated by instances in which you may want to strip multiple cards, but one or more cards are invalid choices for Thoughtseize.

tl;dr In the overwhelming majority of cases, leading with Thoughtseize is preferable. There are specific, narrowly constructed examples in which leading with Hymn is advantageous, but these situations are so rare that I wouldn't bother playing around them unless I already had knowledge of the contents of my opponent's hand, in which case you'll have to analyze the utility of each card on a case-by-case basis.

Barbed Blightning
04-09-2013, 08:48 AM
I'm playing without Bolt and it's really not a issue. I love bolt, but I prefere the 4th Lily and the 4th Decay.
Try the Boltless list! I was skeptical too!

...or you could cut libraries for bolts.

You also need more black sources; wasteland becomes much better once you run fewer color producing lands

Lord Gibbo
04-09-2013, 09:53 AM
...or you could cut libraries for bolts.

You also need more black sources; wasteland becomes much better once you run fewer color producing lands

I find Libraries more important then Bolt in this deck... Library is a kind of confidant hardest to kill.

I'm going to attend to the GP in Strasbourg this saturday, I have got 3 byes and I'll play this list:


3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Punishing Fire
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach

4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sylvan Library

1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs

Side
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Duress
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Life from the Loam
1 Krosan Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Pithing Needle

I'm pritty shure about the Main. I just have some perplexity about the Side:
Do you think I should run a couple of Jitte? Cutting what?

aluisiocsantos
04-09-2013, 09:59 AM
Thanks for the suggestions!
I might be able to easily cut Ooze and one Library in favor of at least 2 Bolts. Maybe a third one if I place one A.Decay on the sideboard.
As for the lands, I completely agree, I might be able to use a RB and a BG shockland for now, but eventually trade for the duals (badlands isn't too expensive yet right now anyway). I kind of wanna get at one Maelstrom Pulse for the sideboard too, feels annoying to not be able to destroy anything that costs more than 3, though I guess the discards make it up for it mostly.


On the discarding discussion I think it's subjective to whom you're dueling with. Vs combo decks with counters such as SnT and Reanimator, I'd rather start out with Hymn to Tourach to maximize the chances of discarding an important combo piece. If HtT does the job, awesome! If it gets countered, I can still Thoughtseize it afterwards. Vs TES/ANT and High Tide, maybe I'd try to turn one Thoughtseize (probably on g2) since it's less likely to get a counter hit me.




I'm pritty shure about the Main. I just have some perplexity about the Side:
Do you think I should run a couple of Jitte? Cutting what?
I'd say cut Maelstrom Pulse, since you already run one on the main.

Kylehyde
04-09-2013, 10:45 AM
I've been playing a lot of games against RUG with stifle and I've come to the conclusion the matchup is 50/50. Maybe I'm playing it wrong, but I don't see how people consider it a walk in the park. It all comes down to stifle and wasteland. Playing around it makes it hard to get double black, especially with a DRS never sticking. Their brainstorms are too powerful, and I found the mongoose a bit tough to handle.

However, an early sylvan library really helps, and if you can get to turn 4-5 without bein too out tempoed, then you're looking good.

aluisiocsantos
04-09-2013, 10:48 AM
Yeah, I believe that it should be a cakewalk just in case you can get your mana working. A.Decay takes care of Tarmos, Liliana, of Mangoose and P.Fire/Bolts of Delver. The problem is achieving all that mana when they run Waste and Stifle. But I think that's a good reason to run Pithing Needle.

Barbed Blightning
04-09-2013, 11:13 AM
Playing around waste/stifle is something EVERY deck has to do vs RUG. It just requires practice. I would also like to add that while their "god hands" are difficult to fight through, ours are equally tough for them.

@Gibbo: not running bolt in a red deck is like not running brainstorm in a blue deck: you need a VERY good reason not to. Library is good, but not enough to outweigh bolt, especially with abrupt decay still very popular

Lord Gibbo
04-09-2013, 11:46 AM
@Gibbo: not running bolt in a red deck is like not running brainstorm in a blue deck: you need a VERY good reason not to. Library is good, but not enough to outweigh bolt, especially with abrupt decay still very popular

I know Bolt is a great card. I love them! But try to play without bolt! It's not exactly like play without brainsorm...

Library is the only way to manipulate the top. I'll never cut it...

But beliveme! Try the bolt less list for a couple of games!
After tried it, give me your impressions!

Barbed Blightning
04-09-2013, 01:48 PM
I know Bolt is a great card. I love them! But try to play without bolt! It's not exactly like play without brainsorm...

Library is the only way to manipulate the top. I'll never cut it...

But beliveme! Try the bolt less list for a couple of games!
After tried it, give me your impressions!

I have tested it, and found it lacking. You need that cmc 1 removal for opposing an DRS, lackey, mom or delver. Turn one answers or the ability to remove a creature and play another threat/hymn is important in the early game.

This deck doesn't need manipulation of the top deck necessarily; it only helps to keep bob from killing us, but even then Bob will either be killed or help us kill our opponent before the life loss becomes an issue.

I just don't see the justification for cutting bolt.

Lord Gibbo
04-09-2013, 02:16 PM
I have tested it, and found it lacking. You need that cmc 1 removal for opposing an DRS, lackey, mom or delver. Turn one answers or the ability to remove a creature and play another threat/hymn is important in the early game.

This deck doesn't need manipulation of the top deck necessarily; it only helps to keep bob from killing us, but even then Bob will either be killed or help us kill our opponent before the life loss becomes an issue.

I just don't see the justification for cutting bolt.

I'm going to have a testing session this night. I'll test boltless and boltwith. I'll post my impressions after that.:smile:

(I'll probably cut 1 Decay, 1 library and 1 pulse in order to find space for 3 bolt.)

EDIT: Does anybody run Engineered Plague in his side? How does it works?

dave8
04-09-2013, 02:45 PM
I'm going to have a testing session this night. I'll test boltless and boltwith. I'll post my impressions after that.:smile:

(I'll probably cut 1 Decay, 1 library and 1 pulse in order to find space for 3 bolt.)

EDIT: Does anybody run Engineered Plague in his side? How does it works?

I play 2 of them and I am very happy with it.
Can't win with elves without them - which is quite a popular and good deck right now.

Lord Gibbo
04-09-2013, 06:36 PM
I play 2 of them and I am very happy with it.
Can't win with elves without them - which is quite a popular and good deck right now.

Do you side Plague also vs Esper for kill Lingering Souls?

@Barbed Blightning: After this night test, I'm thinking about cut 1 Decay and 1 Pulse for 2 Bolt, but I'll NEVER cut Library. There was no situation where I'd predere Bolt instead of Library.
I played Bolts for months but last week i tryed to cut them. But for the GP list, I think I'll trust you!:smile:

dave8
04-10-2013, 02:46 AM
Do you side Plague also vs Esper for kill Lingering Souls?

@Barbed Blightning: After this night test, I'm thinking about cut 1 Decay and 1 Pulse for 2 Bolt, but I'll NEVER cut Library. There was no situation where I'd predere Bolt instead of Library.
I played Bolts for months but last week i tryed to cut them. But for the GP list, I think I'll trust you!:smile:

Yes I do because if they extract your PFires Souls becomes a big issue.
As for the bolts I will never play less than 4.

anakyn
04-10-2013, 04:10 AM
Personally, I'm another one who recently decided to cut the Lightning bolts in favor of 4th Decay, 4th Liliana and 4th Tourach (I played 3 Bolts before).


I don't think Bolts are essential in a mid-range deck like this, since we already play 4 Punishing fires.

The argument "you play red, then you MUST play Bolts cause it's the best red card ever" is inconsistent, because Red can offer different applications to a deck.
You know, there even exist blue decks which play no brainstorm (which is the "best blue card ever"), like Merfolks for example.

Frankly, I just have the impression that many people use this argument without having even tried to cut the bolts.

Bolt is great at killing little creatures and at giving us a good range to finish the opponent.
Now:
- for killing little creatures, we already play 4 Punishing fires, which are recurring, and 4 Decays
- we don't need that range so much, since we are not a tempo deck nor Burn

Bolts are absolutely essential for a tempo deck like RUG, whose "creature plan" often gets stopped after bringing the opponent in Bolt range: in this cases, playing/topdecking Bolt is the only way to win.

Jund, on the opposite, has a stronger late game, so he doesn't need Bolts that badly to close the game. Moreover, the Punishing/Grove sinergy give us even a better range than Bolt: it's slower but more solid.

All in all, I think that playing Punishing/Groves gives us the same utility than Bolt, and since we already play 4 "mini & recurring" bolts I don't get why it's considered so important to play another 3-4 copies of "stronger but not recurring" bolts.



On the other hand, I've also reached the personal conclusion than playing the 4th Liliana is better than playing just 3: they are so strong that improving the probability to play her outweighs the risk of cascading into a 2nd copy.


After having cut the 3 Bolts, I only had one problem to solve: 2 of these slots have been replaced by 4th Liliana and 4th Decay, but I'm still doubtful about how to replace the 3rd slot, because it could be the 4th Hymn or the 2nd Library.
Right now I'm playing the 4th Hymn for 2 reasons:
- I wanna improve the probability to play it on 2nd turn
- it improves game 1 vs combo
- drawing/cascading the 2nd Library is bad

...but I see many lists prefer the 2nd Library over the 4th Hymn, so probably my choice isn't the best.

dontbiteitholmes
04-10-2013, 05:18 AM
After a small amount of playtesting with this deck all I can say for sure is that 2 Libraries is the right number.

With 23-24 lands it is just far too easy to flood out sometimes in the midgame and just hit runner lands when you need business. You REALLY want either a Confidant or Library to dig you deep and they have good synergy, not to mention BBE is insane with Sylvan where you can often set him up to cascade into the spell you need AND filter a land to the bottom of your deck. Library is just the nut high in this deck.

anakyn
04-10-2013, 05:54 AM
After a small amount of playtesting with this deck all I can say for sure is that 2 Libraries is the right number.

With 23-24 lands it is just far too easy to flood out sometimes in the midgame and just hit runner lands when you need business. You REALLY want either a Confidant or Library to dig you deep and they have good synergy, not to mention BBE is insane with Sylvan where you can often set him up to cascade into the spell you need AND filter a land to the bottom of your deck. Library is just the nut high in this deck.

You could be right.
Since I've added the 4th Liliana, maybe I don't need the 4th Hymn maindeck all that much, so I'll put an Hymn back to the sideboard and add the 2nd Library (which I already own, fortunately).


Another card I've completely cut, but I'm not already sold on this decision, is Wasteland.
Yes, it's another apparently "untouchable" card.

But my reasoning is similar to the Bolt's one: Wasteland has great sinergy with the "tempo" plan, not so much with a midrange deck. We have no mana denial at all apart from Wasteland, so we could as well cut them in this regard.
Instead of wasting an opponent's land, I simply prefer to have 1 more mana and play my spells.
The question I ask myself is: for this deck, is it more important to slow an opponent, or to be faster? Normally I prefer to be faster.

Imho, having the 2nd black mana source is far more important than having Wasteland, so I don't wanna risk the scenario where I have Wasteland as second land and I can't find another black source.
Playing 4 Burnwillows AND 3-4 Wasteland maybe it's a bit too much for a deck which really wants black mana sources.

EDIT: another profit of NOT playing Wasteland is the fact I can play less lands overall, which is something I like since there are many times where Jund floods too much.

Of course having access to Wasteland offers a lot more than mana denial, so cutting them is not an easy choice.


The list I'm using right now:

Lands (22)
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Swamp
1 Forest

Creatures (16)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Bloodbraid Elf

Spells (22)
2 Sylvan Library
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Punishing Fire
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Liliana of the Veil


Sideboard
1 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Hymn to Tourach
3 Engineered Plague
1 Life from the Loam
3 Duress
2 Extirpate
3 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge

dontbiteitholmes
04-10-2013, 08:47 AM
snip

I don't know about cutting Wastelands and not running Bolt.

Without Bolt you have no real turn 1 answers to 1cmc problem creatures and since we have so many 2 drops they help a lot when you can lay down a 2 drop on turn 3 then bolt instead of having to choose between dropping a creature/Hymning or killing their dude. Seems like with Jund a lot of times you want to play the tempo game early to get into the midgame where you have a superior board position and can dominate.

Wasteland helps the combo matchup a little, but a little is a lot sometimes, not to mention it can let you just run away with games you have no business winning especially with a live Confidant. Keeping an opposing control deck off 4 mana can be crucial too as it forces them to make the tough decisions that allow you to keep putting on pressure. You absolutely don't want them to be able to drop a Jace on you with an empty board, especially if you run 0 bolts.

Also not particularly a fan of Pulse main, especially when you already have 4 Decays. Seems a little too cute sometimes and cascading into removal is often groanzone. Pulse only really seems optimal vs. control when you already have 4x Decay and BBE is a bomb there so I'd rather have BBE #4 personally.

As far as your sideboard I question whether that Hymn is really needed. Same with Loam, maybe too cute especially with no Wastelands what's the point?

I'd go Surgical over Extirpate, it allows you to still be aggro and tap out which you need vs. most decks where you want that effect and 90% of the time split second is irrelevant.

I think you are too light on anti-graveyard/anti combo cards. Those seem to be problem matchups and your sideboard seems to be clogged with cards you just wish you had room for in the maindeck but don't address the weakpoints of the deck.

I'm also a fan of Jitte over Plague. A live Jitte puts a hurting on combo elves and Goblins and can be randomly good in other problem matches like burn for example or Maverick. I hear the arguments for Plague though I just feel like Jitte is more flexible.

anakyn
04-10-2013, 10:07 AM
@ dontbiteitholmes


Your points about the importance of bolts and wasteland are good of course; I just don't think they make bolt and wasteland auto-inclusion in this deck (while they definitely are in tempo decks), especially if we have already great alternatives (Punishing fire).

I'm pretty sold about the cutting of Lightning bolts, while I'd really like to find some space for 3 Wastelands if I could.
My point is: while Bolts can be completely replaced by Fires without hurting too much our strategy, the absence of some form of land desctruction can hurt.

About the other topics:

- Pulse maindeck is not essential, yet sometimes it wins games... getting rid of a bunch of Goblins or Angels is pretty strong, and being so versatile also helps against a variety of permanents. However, I used to play it in the sideboard and I could remove it from maindeck again if needed, especially if I wanna find some place for Wasteland

- I don't get why first you ask the utility of the 4th Hymn, and then you say I'm light vs combo... it doesn't seem much coherent to me. The 4th Hymn is there to fight combo, since it's like the best card we can play against those kind of decks. I really don't understand how you can consider is unnecessary while you think I should play more cards to fight combo.

- the debate of Extirpate vs Surgical: when I play black and I have tons of mana / I'm not playing tempo, then I usually prefer Extirpate over Surgical. Since it usually come in vs combo, it seems to me that the uncounterability is pretty huge to be honest. For example, against a deck full of protection like Sneak attack, split second is a factor not to be ignored.
However, I can understand the reasoning behind the choice of playing Surgical (no tempo loss), it's just Extirpate fits my playstyle better.

- Loam: I don't use it for aggressive Wasteland strategies, but only to protect myself from opponent's Wasteland aggressive strategy. It comes in vs RUG and other mana denial decks like D&T and Pox. It's a silver bullet cause I can't afford more than one, yet it has solved some games when I saw it.
I don't consider it essential, so it can be sacrificed for something better if I find that something.

- Plague vs Jitte: I don't think they cover exactly the same role. Plague is there only for tribal matchups (and for D&T, naming humans), while Jitte would be pretty cute against aggressive decks like Burn or RUG.
It is true that they share of a lot of matchups where they would be both useful, but I simply prefer using the Ooze for life-gaining ability and Plague for tribal.
The other thing is: I don't like playing Jitte in a non-Stoneforge deck, since I can't abuse its potential.
Yet Jitte remains one of the best sideboard cards for this deck, so I fully understand people playing it; it's just another case (like Extirpate over Surgical) of playstyle preferences.

- light vs combo/graveyard decks.
To be honest, this is the only point where I don't agree at all.
In game 2-3, vs combo and/or graveyard I can play: 4 Thoughtseize + 3 Duress + 4 Hymns + 4 Liliana (15 discard spells/effects) + 2 Extirpate (anti-graveyard) + 3 Pyroblast (if playing vs Sneak attack / High tide): that means around 20 anti-combo cards, 1/3 of the deck!
And I'm not even counting the maindeck Shamans and Ooze, which are outstanding vs Graveyard decks.
Combo isn't and will never be an easy match-up for Jund, but I really don't see how I could be "heavier" than this.

Kylehyde
04-10-2013, 10:33 AM
I've tried playing a list with 2 bolts and I already found it too lacking in bolts. I like increasing my chances of having one in my opening hand when it matters.

Does anyone play a list with 3/4 decay, 3/4 bolt, 3 hymn, 3/4 pf AND 2 libraries? Or am I asking too much?

Barbed Blightning
04-10-2013, 11:20 AM
I've tried playing a list with 2 bolts and I already found it too lacking in bolts. I like increasing my chances of having one in my opening hand when it matters.

Does anyone play a list with 3/4 decay, 3/4 bolt, 3 hymn, 3/4 pf AND 2 libraries? Or am I asking too much?

My list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bloodbraid Elf

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire

4 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Swamp

SB: 3 Inquisition of Kozilek
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Bloodbraid Elf
SB: 1 Sylvan Library

Library in the board is for the control matchup. Library in the main for a punishing model is too demanding.

sdematt
04-10-2013, 12:22 PM
Why not Duress instead of IoK? I'm assuming the discard is for the combo matchup, so why not be able to take anything, as marginal as taking Tendrils/ETW/ADN is?

-Matt

Barbed Blightning
04-10-2013, 12:33 PM
Why not Duress instead of IoK? I'm assuming the discard is for the combo matchup, so why not be able to take anything, as marginal as taking Tendrils/ETW/ADN is?

-Matt

Allows you to take spirit guides/shardless agent. That has been very relevant for me recently; besides, against storm I'd rather take LED/ritual first

sdematt
04-10-2013, 12:42 PM
That's fair. You have a reason besides just because, so hooray :P

-Matt

zulander
04-10-2013, 01:57 PM
I've tried playing a list with 2 bolts and I already found it too lacking in bolts. I like increasing my chances of having one in my opening hand when it matters.

Does anyone play a list with 3/4 decay, 3/4 bolt, 3 hymn, 3/4 pf AND 2 libraries? Or am I asking too much?

Any non-PFires list. Here's what I'm running right now and I don't see any major changes coming soon:

Mana: 22
3 Wasteland
3 Bloostained Mire
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Basics
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
1 Taiga

Disruption: 18
4 Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn
4 Decay
2 Liliana

Creatures: 18
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Confidant
4 Bloodbraid Elf

Other: 2
2 Sylvan Library

Board:
3 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Pyroblast
3 Surgical
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge

With this list I get to run a what I believe to be a better PFire in the form of Grim Lavamancer without damaging the manabase. Lavamancer/PFires both of their pro's and cons but I've just found Lavamancer to better suit what I need.

razvan
04-10-2013, 03:02 PM
Here is my latest list:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Strangleroot Geist

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach

3 Bayou, 2 Badlands, 1 Taiga
8 Fetches
1 of each Basic
3 Wastelands, 3 Grove

Amazingxkcd
04-11-2013, 02:35 PM
Here is my latest list:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Strangleroot Geist

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach

3 Bayou, 2 Badlands, 1 Taiga
8 Fetches
1 of each Basic
3 Wastelands, 3 Grove

Even though you have drs, the geists seems to be really stretching the manabase... though the geist cabal therapy synergy might be worth it

razvan
04-11-2013, 02:39 PM
Well, in the offchance that i have hymn, geist and the need to turn 1 bolt something, this sucks, yes. Otherwise, I can mix and match with Bayou and Taiga.

In fact, that is the ONLY reason I have Taiga.

They have been nothing short of amazing though. Drawing a FoW, or even a 1st turn Thoughtseize every time. They are surprisingly hard to deal with.

Also, again, Jitte. The card is so amazing.

eldpojken
04-11-2013, 06:27 PM
How come so many lists play only 3 BBE main? In my limited testing playing the deck I feel like BBE has been one of the strongest, if not the strongest, card in the entire deck. Granted I have played against a lot of Jace decks so that might have something to do with it.

Also how come so many people are so incredibly hot for Hymn? That card seems occasionally amazing, often lackluster and most of the time rather mediocre.

Regarding Lightning Bolt I think it is a powerful and efficient enough spell with broad enough application to play at least 2 md. I don't like 4 PFire as usually you only want 1 and the Grove part of the combo is the most important piece. So more bolts and shave some Pfire seems best imo.

Also, Sylvan Library is completely nuts in this deck and if you feel like they suck in multiples at least run 1 and a Sensei Top or 2 in place of the other.

DLifshitz
04-11-2013, 08:08 PM
How come so many lists play only 3 BBE main? In my limited testing playing the deck I feel like BBE has been one of the strongest, if not the strongest, card in the entire deck. Granted I have played against a lot of Jace decks so that might have something to do with it.

She has her weaknesses. Mainly the fact that she costs 4 mana. The random nature of Cascade means she's good at gaining general card advantage, but not so great at dealing with very specific situations (say, opponent having an active Jitte, or being about to combo off).


Also how come so many people are so incredibly hot for Hymn? That card seems occasionally amazing, often lackluster and most of the time rather mediocre.

When is Hymn mediocre? I understand, before the printing of DRS, the mana cost of BB used to be a serious concern, but today?

eldpojken
04-12-2013, 04:21 AM
BBE: From playing the deck I felt like most of the reason I was winning was because of BBE, Bob and Library just completely overpowering whatever my opponent was doing and basically any cascade was usually good enough. THe casting cost is a fair point but in what specific matchups do you often feel that is a great hindrance, and is she still good in those MUs?

Hymn: You are often spending 2 mana (of the same color as you said) at sorcery speed on a spell that does nothing to impact the board. On the draw this can be a real concern in certain types of MUs. It is always a 2 for 1 but I think people overestimate that because oftentimes they will discard 2 cards that weren't superb while you used up a card that instead could've have been something that really put pressure on your opponent. Now you spent time and resources and might not have gotten a "real" 2 for 1 considering the strength of the discarded cards and the opponent might just draw out of it. This is a big concern when sticking many Hymns in your deck since they often are really weak topdecks past turn 4 or so and such a card MUST be really strong on the first few to to warrant inclusions which I don't think Hymn is consistently enough. In general I think people just remember the times when it hits perfect cards and freewins for them and then they use it too much as a crutch to avoid actually playing the game and just hoping to freeroll. It also does not give any information about the rest of the hand unlike something like Thoughtseize. I think there are better ways to combat combo than auto jamming 3-4 Hymn in this deck, but again, I haven't played that much with this particular archetype to tell.

Barbed Blightning
04-12-2013, 10:21 AM
BBE: From playing the deck I felt like most of the reason I was winning was because of BBE, Bob and Library just completely overpowering whatever my opponent was doing and basically any cascade was usually good enough. THe casting cost is a fair point but in what specific matchups do you often feel that is a great hindrance, and is she still good in those MUs?

Hymn: You are often spending 2 mana (of the same color as you said) at sorcery speed on a spell that does nothing to impact the board. On the draw this can be a real concern in certain types of MUs. It is always a 2 for 1 but I think people overestimate that because oftentimes they will discard 2 cards that weren't superb while you used up a card that instead could've have been something that really put pressure on your opponent. Now you spent time and resources and might not have gotten a "real" 2 for 1 considering the strength of the discarded cards and the opponent might just draw out of it. This is a big concern when sticking many Hymns in your deck since they often are really weak topdecks past turn 4 or so and such a card MUST be really strong on the first few to to warrant inclusions which I don't think Hymn is consistently enough. In general I think people just remember the times when it hits perfect cards and freewins for them and then they use it too much as a crutch to avoid actually playing the game and just hoping to freeroll. It also does not give any information about the rest of the hand unlike something like Thoughtseize. I think there are better ways to combat combo than auto jamming 3-4 Hymn in this deck, but again, I haven't played that much with this particular archetype to tell.

Do not think of hymn as a discard spell or an anti combo spell. It's not that; not really. It's more of a means of generating card advantage and tempo. It's part of what makes jund DTB: its color combo is rather weak, but most of the deck are 2-for-1s. Pulse, pfire, BBE, Hymn--these cards pull you so far ahead or put your opponent so far back that jund just crushes its opponents.

eldpojken
04-15-2013, 01:36 PM
Do not think of hymn as a discard spell or an anti combo spell. It's not that; not really. It's more of a means of generating card advantage and tempo. It's part of what makes jund DTB: its color combo is rather weak, but most of the deck are 2-for-1s. Pulse, pfire, BBE, Hymn--these cards pull you so far ahead or put your opponent so far back that jund just crushes its opponents.

I don't consider it an anti combo spell but a lot of people seem to think of it mostly as that. As for considering it a discard spell.. well that is what the card does if you read the text, relevant or not.

Aside from that you didn't really contend with any of my arguments and mostly spouted obvious statements that doesn't say anything about wether or not Hymn is better than another spell in the slot. For instance, if your criteria for cards that "pull you far ahead" is that they are 2 for 1's or better, then just stick 12 Planeswalkers in your list and proclaim it the DTB. Please give some arguments for or against why you think the effect of the card is worth including, in which matchups its strong (or even necessary) as well as weak and then hopefully we can see the reasoning that lead you to use slots (the most precious resource in deck design) for Hymn over something else.

As for Hymn generating tempo, please elaborate. To me it is pretty clear that the card only loses tempo as it costs 2, is a sorcery, and does not impact the board in any way. It does generate card advantage, but as I said in my previous post, that card advantage oftentimes isn't a "good" 2 for 1 in the sense that you trade a card that could've been something useful in the matchup instead, for 2 cards that may not be very relevant for the matchup, which might still be ok for you, but does cost you BB and often a full turn, which ofc is horrendous if you need to be the aggressor in the matchup and apply actual threats to your opponent.

Kylehyde
04-15-2013, 02:58 PM
BBE cascading into hymn is pretty cool.

aluisiocsantos
04-15-2013, 04:16 PM
Here's a 12th place in 1365players Grand Prix Punishing Jund deck:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10647&iddeck=77696


Creatures [15]
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants [9]
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Punishing Fire

Sorceries [6]
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize

Enchantments [2]
2 Sylvan Library


Planeswalkers [4]
4 Liliana of the Veil

Lands [24]
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard
2 Duress
1 Engineered Plague
2 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Pithing Needle
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction

Looks pretty strong IMO. I'd change the sideboard here due to more SnT combos but the top 16 in the tourney almost didn't feature combos so I guess he was spot on it for the meta there.
I'm curious to know how did Pernicious Deed turn out on his matches too.

anakyn
04-16-2013, 11:52 AM
Why Hymn is great imho:

- it follows the "2-for-1" theme of the deck

- we are a bit light vs combo, especially in game 1, and playing Hymn can turn a game completely if it hits combo pieces. Turn 1 Thoughtseize followed by turn 2 Hymn means a combo opponent will likely need several turns to rebuild his hand, which gives us time to beat him down and/or to disrupt him even more with other discard and Liliana.

- yes, Hymn can hurt "tempo". But we shouldn't care too much about "tempo", because we are NOT a tempo deck.
We play little mana denial and we are not as fast as decks like RUG, which has super-efficient beaters like Mongoose and Delver.
We are a mid-range deck. We are not forced to win early, because our mid game is great and we can grind out victories even vs control decks.
Playing Hymn instead of a Goyf would be terrible if our plan was "win as fast as you can", but that shouldn't be Jund's goal imho.
The only type of opponents where we should hurry up are combo decks, and vs combo Hymn is like the best card we can play anyways.

- yes, they are often terrible topdecks.
But they are as terrible in topdecking as they are great early.
In fact, the randomness of the discard effect can lead to 2 separate kind of arguments, empathizing the weaknesses but also the strengths:
- weaknesses: you can't choose the cards to discard
- strengths: you can make the opponent discard lands! Thoughtseize, Duress and Inquisition can't hit lands, while Hymn can. Forcing the discard of a land on mana-light hands can mean game over in many matchups.
And since Legacy is a mana-light format where people often starts with 1-land or 2-lands hands, an early Hymn hitting a land or even 2 is one of the strongest effect I can think of.

- since we are already playing 3-4 Liliana, I don't think "BB" is such a problem to be honest. With lots of fetchlands, Shaman and something like 3 Badlands, 2-3 Bayous and a Swamp, it shouldn't happen too often to be color-screwed.

- the "selective memory" argument, according to which we only remember the times where a certain card (or a fact, generically speaking) has been great and not when it has been weak.
Well, a part from the fact that often it works the opposite ways (we probably remember better the worst memories than the best ones), I also remember very clearly the times where Hymn has been great... for the opponent! So many times I've been beaten by Hymns forcing me to discard some key pieces.
In some grindy matchups vs other B/G/x decks like BUG, sometimes the victory goes to the deck who has played the earliest Hymn.
I remember a recent playtesting against a guy playing BUG, where the main difference between the 2 decks was the fact he was playing 4 Hymns MD and I was playing just 3... I found out that the higher chance to play Hymn earlier than me was pretty crucial, since usually the game resolved around an Hymn war in the first turns.


For me, Hymn is so strong that I'd really like to find space for the 4th copy maindeck, instead of playing 3 MD and the 4th in SB.

aluisiocsantos
04-16-2013, 01:02 PM
So, considering I'm just started playing this deck, what do you think is the best approach for the G1?
I'd think Turn 1: Deathrite for a Turn 2: Thoughtseize + Hymn to Tourach to be the ideal, but then if I get a comb odeck for opponent, a t1 Deathrite might just be a bad move. Would you depend choosing it based on if you are the first to play (in this case Deathrite) and then if you are on the draw to Thoughseize instead?

EDIT: Also, I see a lot of lists running Pernicious Deed on the sideboard. Doesnt this card hurt Jund itself a bunch? Wouldn't Engineered Explosives be a better option due to be able to pinpoint the problem?

anakyn
04-17-2013, 03:11 AM
Against an unknown opponent, I'd say T1 Thoughtseize is always the best move, both on the draw and on the play.

You don't want them to win in their turn 1 if you can avoid it, and there are different combo decks that can do it, Belcher and TES above all.

razvan
04-17-2013, 10:54 AM
Also, you don't want to expose Deathrite needlessly unless you have something like a Dark Confidant after that. First turn Thoughseize allows you to sculpt your plan significantly.

Very few combo decks can go off on turn 1. The ones that do get hurt a lot by it (Belcher) still can top-deck into something quickly, and they run up to 11 kill spells, so chances are reasonable they will hit it. That being said, there's no question about turn 1 TS vs. Belcher, just saying, it might not be the one all end all.

Against other combo decks, it is significantly better to play Shaman first so you can vault ahead. You need a bit of luck to win. If they have it (and they might), c'est la vie.

The bigger concern is that they might be able to use Brainstorm to hide their best cards. If this is the issue, then try to get TS going when they cannot Brainstorm.

Cryoclasm
04-18-2013, 05:33 AM
I've tried playing a list with 2 bolts and I already found it too lacking in bolts. I like increasing my chances of having one in my opening hand when it matters.

Does anyone play a list with 3/4 decay, 3/4 bolt, 3 hymn, 3/4 pf AND 2 libraries? Or am I asking too much?

Right now I am running the list very close to mentioned one from GP Strasbourg:

Creatures [15]
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

Instants [9]
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire (I still don't get why people want to run 4 of them without Bolts, 2cc burn is really expensive in the world of Daze and Spell Pierce when you really need to kill that flipped Delver on 2 mana)

Sorceries [8]
1 Maelstrom Pulse (I like versatile answer to anything what Decay is bad at)
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize (Might be 2+2 IoK as well)

Artifacts [1]
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Enchantments [2]
2 Sylvan Library (I was playing with random one unless I found that 6th Bob is really, really important)

Planeswalkers [3]
3 Liliana of the Veil (4 is really too much)

Lands [24]
1 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
<s>3 Wasteland</s> (I will explain later why)
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard
3 Leyline of Sanctity (meta-call, since we have burn and UR delvers around, also fine against TES and ANT)
2 Engineered Plague (tribal deck are also present in our meta, and it is an answer against Storm's goblins)
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Angel of Despair (3 OmniSneaks forced me to waste this 3 precious slots, since they side in )
3 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction (I tried Extirpates but found Surgicals more effective, since you don't lose the temp)
1 Nihil Spellbomb (because you need to nuke ooposing p.fires)

The problem I found which affects Jund stability is that you can't hope to play reliably with Hymn + P.Fire + Wasteland in one deck. I don't want to be desperately hoping to draw the right part of the deck's manabase every now and then, to say nothing of opponents Stifles and Wastelands attacking our shaky manabase.
Now I see the following variants to go:

1) Replace Hymn with Inquisition of Kozilek thus making Liliana the only double black cost in the deck. I tried that and it is not acceptable for me. Though pinpoint discard is giving you more information it is not well paired with the plan to leave them without hand (thanks, Liliana)
I like Hymn very much since it proved its power on turn 2-3 against slow decks, when it hits most valuable things left when a couple of lands have left their hand. Of course, it always depends on the situation, for example I left Hyms against Elves on the play and sided them out on the draw since I probably won't have time for them.
2) Switch Wastelands with basic lands to build up steady manabase against RUG, Dark Loam or any other deck with Wastelands. You really want to get 4 lands in play. You want to cast your BBE, you want to cast your spells AND activate your shaman for pings. Jund is mana hungry deck and destroying your own manabase while you draw 3cc and 4cc costs, when your lands are
3) You cut P.Fires for 4th Bolt, 1 Scavenging Ooze, 4th Abrupt Decay/1 IoK. I don't like that plan since P.Fires give you reach in long play with blue decks, killing Jace, Spirits, opposing Shamans and utilizing your spare mana when you start to draw multiple lands, still pinging your opponent.

Asthereal
04-18-2013, 08:23 AM
3 Leyline of Sanctity: will you really mulligan into those?
You do realise you cannot actually cast these, I hope?
Chances of having a three-of in your opener are way under 40% so you need a lot of luck to get to them.

3 Angel of Despair: also uncastable. Very narrow sideboard card, only works against Show and Tell and Hypergenesis.
This seems too narrow to play in the side.

These slots seem loose in your sideboard.
I would suggest 2-3 Duress, maybe 1-2 Maelstrom Pulse, perhaps an additional Plague, or maybe Grim Lavamancer.
Duress helpt against Combo, Show and tell, heavy control decks.
Grim Lavamancer is good against any aggro, the mirror and so on.
Pulses are strong against heavy control (planeswalkers) and against Empty the Warrens tokens.

aluisiocsantos
04-18-2013, 09:19 AM
Thanks anakyn and razvan. I think it's a lot more clear as how to think on the matchups. Also what do you think about Pernicious Deed vs Engineered Explosives?

About Angel of Despair, I agree with Asthereal, you can't cast it if you need to, which is why in my case I prefer opting for Ensnaring Bridge instead, which also allows for a Punishing Fire/Deathrite Shaman lock.

As for Grim Lavamancer, I don't think you need him if you're playing Punishing Jund, but I'd certainly do if it is a regular Jund!

Cryoclasm
04-18-2013, 10:28 AM
3 Leyline of Sanctity: will you really mulligan into those?
You do realise you cannot actually cast these, I hope?
If I have a strong opening hand with TS, Hymn, Liliana, DRS - there is no need to mulligan.
Theoretically I can do with 2 DRS.


3 Angel of Despair: also uncastable. Very narrow sideboard card, only works against Show and Tell and Hypergenesis.This seems too narrow to play in the side.
I have already explained that this is meta specific sideboard since there are 3 OmniSneak for 12-20 people and I don't want to sit 2 and 3 game against Show decks starting with Leyline of Sanctity and watch him winning with my hand full of discard. I also hardcasted once topdecked Angel (yes, there were 2 DRS) once to kill Emrakul FTW. I know that it is uncastable but it is a reliable answer to Show.

I think that with recursive removal we don't need 3rd Engineered plague. This is done to make our lives a little bit easier besides it kills small ones in great numbers.


Grim Lavamancer is good against any aggro, the mirror and so on.
Grim Lavamancer is non-bo for this deck due to Shaman, Tarmo and Punishing Fire reasons.
He is also very fragile since EVERYTHING kills him. I don't want to wait a turn before killing opposing Bobs, Mother of Runes, DRS and so on.
I hope you know that Jund mirror is a hard and unpredictable one, but Punishing Fire is a key card which kills literally everything in Jund except Tarmo.


Pulses are strong against heavy control (planeswalkers) and against Empty the Warrens tokens.
We already have reach against heavy controls: Punishing Fire and BBE. Empty the Warrens meets maindeck Pulse and 2 E.Plague in Side, if he decides to go for Goblins.


I prefer opting for Ensnaring Bridge instead, which also allows for a Punishing Fire/Deathrite Shaman lock.
I tried that, but unfortunately it doesn't help against Omniscience - B.Wish for Petals of Insight, played 1000000 times - B.Wish for Grapeshot for 1 000 000+n to the dome.

razvan
04-18-2013, 11:35 AM
If I have a strong opening hand with TS, Hymn, Liliana, DRS - there is no need to mulligan.
Correct. You never really worry about mulliganning into a perfect hand vs. SnT. First, there is no such thing. You just have to hope to get lucky. If they have Leyline AND the combo, you are dead no matter what you have, short of playing stuff like Reverent Silence (thinking about it).


Grim Lavamancer is non-bo for this deck due to Shaman, Tarmo and Punishing Fire reasons.
He is also very fragile since EVERYTHING kills him. I don't want to wait a turn before killing opposing Bobs, Mother of Runes, DRS and so on.
That is the risk you have to take. I would never cut a Lightning Bolt from the 75, but people do, and I often find myself wanting another 1cc removal spell. Yes, Lavamancer is SIGNIFICANTLY better on the play, because then it CAN kill that stuff, but what can you do, a lot is better on the play.

I don't really play Lavamancer, but I wouldn't be unhappy with one. It is a very potent card, and it's not a non-bo. You have so much stuff that goes to the GY, your removal kills something of theirs, your discard, lands, etc. Your GY and their GY is usually full. Yes, sometimes, you don't want to over-rely on the GY in the face of much GY removal, but he is not a nonbo.

Cryoclasm
04-19-2013, 04:20 AM
Razvan, I share your opinion. However, I often find myself even with DRS when I can't ping the opponent for 2, since I don't want to make Tarmo smaller, and the only instant in my graveyard is Punishing Fire.

I agree that 2 Lavamancers should be fine in main if you are playing with Wastelands without P.Fire.
I should mention that I like siding E.Plagues against Maverick setting for Humans, since they have only Scryb Ranger, Knight of Reliquary(still very small due to DRS AND Plague), Quasali Pridemage and Stoneforge Mystic after that.
Yes, it hits our own Bobs, but hey, if they have nothing on board I don't worry.

Reverent Silence seems good in sideboard should the metagame shift to Enchantress and SnT being at least 20% of the field. =)

Asthereal
04-19-2013, 04:51 PM
@Cryoclasm:
If a hughe chunk of your meta consist of Show and Tell, and a fair bit also of Burn, you are playing the wrong deck. Try Bant Aggro with Rhox War Monks and Oblivion Rings on side. You'll find that doing very nicely in such a meta.

What if you p[lay the board you suggested and encounter all the other stuff? Then you have a sideboard of only 9 cards. That seems weak. I would seriously recommend either to play a different list, or to play sideboard cards that are versatile and will also help in the matchups you fear.

Grim Lavamancer is so strong against certain decks that it is worth the disadvantage. If you need recurring damage, but they stop your recurring PF, you will be very pleased to find a Lavaman. I'm not saying the guy will always be brilliant. He's just very good, especially against Maverick (which seems to be coming back, and is a very losable matchup). Against tribal, I don;t think I have to explain how awesome he is. They will do whatever it takes to kill/counter him, and then Punishing Fire will just finish the game off.

By the way, against Show and Tell, you can also just side more REB/Pyroblasts. Those are always nice to have against Blue Control as well, and they can help with countering cantrips against Storm. Not ideal, but better than Abrupt Decay at least. So if you are afraid of Leyline of Sanctity just side more 'Blasts.

If Burn is what you are afraid of, you can also consider life gaining creatures. If your mana base can handle it, Kitchen Finks might be an option. Those will also help against the occasional Zoo deck (you won't encounter many of those, but Zoo is very losable).

Cryoclasm
04-22-2013, 04:15 AM
Asthereal, here we have an idiom "Do not pee against the wind" =) Yes, if our meta were full of Burn and SnT decks I would play another deck. However, there are other good match-ups too, like Elves, Maverick, Stoneblade Esper and UWR.
and the second reason is that if I could afford another deck I would do that, since I like playing different stuff.

It is almost impossible to win against burn, but UR delver is pretty fine. I didn't lose a round to it for months, since basic lands render Price of Progress inefficient and the only thing I am afraid of are multiple delvers when I do not draw any removal.

No Zoo(5cc, right?) in our meta at all, and I have met it only once and won easily since their only hard to kill creature is Geist and they can't counter my expensive edict from Liliana.

If you don't like white Leylines you would replace them with Mindbreak Trap, since this is another 0-turn answer to Storm which is always popular. After extensive testing the side with 3 Traps + 2 Duress + 2 REBs I still found out that Storm can check you with G.Probe for trap and combo-out even after you Duress+Hymn him.

By the way, I always side in REBs against Storm, since not only they are countering cantrips when they try to hide their precious cards from discard but they can also stop Diminishing Returns combo-out.

I am going to give another chance to Grim Lavamancer and Wasteland build and tell you the results, should you be interested.

aluisiocsantos
04-22-2013, 09:13 AM
I dunno, I've always thought decks such as burn are exactly like Combo decks. You get a hand, and it must be almost enough to kill an opponent. You don't interact with them and just burn down till they are gone. I think in those matchups Jund should behave as you would to combos. Discard spells, and board them Duresses too! Maybe board out P.Fires since we use them for creature control if you need the slots.

Cryoclasm
04-23-2013, 08:33 AM
Our lilianas and shaman are drawing burn spells to them since they can't afford to leave a lifegain creature on the table. I played recently with a singleton of Scavenging Ooze in the past for RUG, StormCombo, Burn and UR delver matchups but found out that my board is enough for them(Jitte belongs to main, don't forget). The result totally depends if burn draws enough fuel to fry us like a pancake or they will draw some creatures and lands and get them discarded/killed and eaten by shaman/ooze. Leyline of Sanctity proved to be VERY demoralizing card and I am quite happy with it.

Asthereal
04-23-2013, 09:09 AM
@Cryoclasm:
:wink: But I'm sure you understand that Jund is a meta thing. It look srediculous in Legacy to play Bloodbraid Elves, and the main reason is because Storm, Show and Tell and a couple of other decks just rip you apart and the only thing you can do is hope they draw crap and your Thoughtseize cripples them just enough for your dude to finish them off. Small chance of that happening. :tongue:

But I find it pretty interesting that a deck that I used to look at frowning, and used to mock all the time, actually made it to DtB. I'm experimenting a bit as well, and I found that if you play Deathrites correctly, and you get the proper amount of card advantage going that Jund is sort of famous for, the deck is actually pretty dangerous. Right now I'm experimenting with a regular Bolt list, because I feel the mana base is a lot stronger, and the faster removal sometimes helps. Does suck in the mirror, but we can't have it all. My current list:

Creatures:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf /15

Spells:
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek (I like to have at least 10 fine one-drops - doing nothing on turn 1 just sucks...)
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil /22

Lands:
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland /23

Sideboard:
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Surgical Extraction /15

The sideboard is pretty versatile. I like it that way.

razvan
04-25-2013, 03:09 PM
14 discard is a lot. I run 9 total, which is low, but I wouldn't really go above 11. I include Liliana in this.

Umezawa's Jitte is nothing short of amazing. If I could fit in two I would.

hilariousjack
04-25-2013, 03:43 PM
I couldn't find if it has been discussed before, but does anyone have suggestions about how to beat Sigarda? I'm playing Punishing Jund right now and last weekend I had a super-long grindy game against Maverick and game three he was able to draw Sigarda while I just had Bloodbraid and Liliana on the board and then quickly lost with removal waiting in hand. In my sideboard I have Penicious Deed and sometimes Ensnaring Bridge, is there anything else that people bring in that could help? Now that my playgroup saw how easily I lost to Sigarda, it looks like she's going to become more of a staple for me to go up against.

aluisiocsantos
04-25-2013, 04:15 PM
14 discard is a lot. I run 9 total, which is low, but I wouldn't really go above 11. I include Liliana in this.

Also I think Inquisition and Abrupt are sort of the same slot? I wouldn't try discarding 3CMC if I can just destroy it later with decay. Sure, I can't A.Decay Show and Tell, but I'd rather play Duress and be able to discard Sneak Attack as well if I'm going to worry about sorceries and the like. Whatever can be destroyed with mana 3 costs I'd rather use Decay instead.

Also about Sigarda, that sounds scary. I haven't seen one like that around here, but sure sounds like a tough one to deal with. I don't thin kthere's an easy way into it, except hoping to out-goyf it, or then as you said, through P.Deed. In my case I'd maybe try using Ensanaring Bridge, since I use 3 copies of that on the board, and then win the game through P.Fire+Shaman.

razvan
04-25-2013, 05:27 PM
I sometimes have Damnation in my sideboard for these issues, or maybe even Perish (I know). That certainly helps, otherwise try to race.

The advantage we have against Maverick or Rock is that we are not so reliant on creatures. Actually just smoking their other creatures with burn and the like, and using shaman to buffer the 5 life we lose to her, should be enough.

I wouldn't worry about it. If they get to 5 mana, or 6 for GSZ, and they get her... then that's that. We cannot prepare for everything.

also:

Also I think Inquisition and Abrupt are sort of the same slot? I wouldn't try discarding 3CMC if I can just destroy it later with decay. Sure, I can't A.Decay Show and Tell, but I'd rather play Duress and be able to discard Sneak Attack as well if I'm going to worry about sorceries and the like. Whatever can be destroyed with mana 3 costs I'd rather use Decay instead.
I wouldn't play Inquisition. I would play Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy and Duress over IoK. Don't get me wrong, I love IoK, but you are correct, we have enough anti 3-mana solutions.

Duress is nice because it cannot be misdirected and takes no life. The only reason I even use Thoughtseize over it is Nimble Mongoose, and the fact that sometimes, you don't want to have Duress maindeck. Neither of the 4 1cc cards is wrong per-se, but you should be aware of the pro's, and limitations, of each. Thoughtseize is generally the best because you *are* faster than most things that attack your life directly. And against RUG, I just straight up switch TS for other stuff in g2 and g3.

zulander
04-29-2013, 04:02 PM
So I've been playing this list recently and it's addressed the issues that I've had with the deck which were the desire for more threats and recurring removal without weakening the mana base.

Creatures: 16
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Tombstalker

Disruption: 17
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn
2 Liliana

Other: 5
2 Night's Whisper
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Mana: 22
3 Waste
3 Basics
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
9 Fetches

-4 Bob +2 Tombstalker +2 Night's Whisper seems weird and clunky but so far it's impressed me enough to keep it as is for now. Also Grim Lavamancer is really really good in the format right now.

defector
04-29-2013, 11:10 PM
Cutting Bob seems like a radical design departure. It's further than I can take it. Has anyone tested extensively on 22 Lands in the non Punishing version? Can the deck support 3/4 BBE on 22 lands and 4DRS?

razvan
04-30-2013, 12:17 PM
23 lands is as low as I can go. 22 will seriously hurt your best match-ups, and even 23 is a issue sometimes.

Cutting Bobs seems insane.

zulander
04-30-2013, 12:30 PM
I actually find 23 to be the highest I could go. I haven't had too many mana issues with 22 lands though personally.

razvan
04-30-2013, 04:12 PM
I actually find 23 to be the highest I could go. I haven't had too many mana issues with 22 lands though personally.
That's what I thought too, but you play against RUG. And if they have 1-2 Stifle and 1-2 Wastelands, you will be blown out way too much.

That is my problem with Groves for Punishing Fire. Your mana is not stable, and an easy match-up becomes a problem.

defector
04-30-2013, 07:13 PM
I was thinking 22 lands in the non pun fire builds. With pun fire I think 23 is a necessisity. Im tweaking between build types and I need to test more, but it seems like the deck floods a little in the non pun fire builds. Pun fire is a mana hog that can justify almost any mana base, but i think the non pun jund could tighten up at 22. I agree with cutting Bob=madness. Isnt he a big reason we play this deck?

aluisiocsantos
05-09-2013, 09:42 AM
I like that generally my opponents see Grove of Burnwillows as a big threat. In the last two tourneys I took part in, whenever my opponent have wastelands to fire, they go straight to Grove, and then my duals remain intact. Of course Stiffle still proves to be a problem. I just like that Grove is preferred over duals.

Amazingxkcd
05-17-2013, 11:15 PM
I was thinking 22 lands in the non pun fire builds. With pun fire I think 23 is a necessisity. Im tweaking between build types and I need to test more, but it seems like the deck floods a little in the non pun fire builds. Pun fire is a mana hog that can justify almost any mana base, but i think the non pun jund could tighten up at 22. I agree with cutting Bob=madness. Isnt he a big reason we play this deck?

I play 24 lands so I can use a full playset of wastelands

offtopic: Jesus, watching Zac Hill go nuts over the creatures in Ali's block reminds me of why he hates cards that you can't turn sideways /rant

defector
05-18-2013, 12:53 PM
At 24 lands your running the Punishing Fires version correct? I think that deck is pretty safe from flooding as it always seems to want to make a land drop. I agree with the full set of wasteland, I never leave home without them:)

Amazingxkcd
05-19-2013, 07:37 PM
At 24 lands your running the Punishing Fires version correct? I think that deck is pretty safe from flooding as it always seems to want to make a land drop. I agree with the full set of wasteland, I never leave home without them:)

yea, the pf version. I consider it to be the superior version currently than other non-pf builds

zulander
05-19-2013, 07:58 PM
How do you guys board against Mircles? What about stone blade?

aluisiocsantos
05-19-2013, 08:54 PM
+3 Rebs
+Krosan Grip
+2 Surgical Extraction
maybe +1 Maelstrom Pulse too.

Prolly side out the Punishing kit. They are means to deal with Snapcaster/Vendillion/Stoneforges but those 3 are never in crazy quantities. On a second thought maybe discards could go instead, since we can still Surgically extract whatever ponders and what not they might use losing therefore just one card instead of two (discard+SE). Not to mention discards are sort of a bad draw in the late game. So... on a second thought, yeah, prolly would take out first the Thoughtseizes, then Liliana. HtT is perfectly fine because they do a number in the early game.

spellpierce
05-19-2013, 09:28 PM
Miracles:
Helm
-3 Bolt
-2 Hymn

+4 REB
+1 Chain of Mephisto

Blade:

-2 Lili
-2 Hymn
+ 2 Surgical/Rakdos Charm
+ 1 Ancient Grudge
+ 1 Chain of Mephisto

I like punishing Kit against them. More so against Esper Stoneblade. Assembling Early Grove + Fire wins u the game preboard against esper. As long as you take care of extraction and/or needle, it's a stroll.

The prob with hymn against miracles are that the only thing that they can do to hurt you is misdirected hymn. Keep your decay for helm and you are in good shape. So unless you are very sure that you wont see misdirection, probably it's a good idea to take them out opposite say Thoughtseize.

Against Esper, Sometimes its just too late. They don't play like your typical blue decks post board. REB isn't very good because I don't see target apart from Clique that I want to REB. If they keep the Jace, probably you can outskill them.

defector
05-21-2013, 03:01 PM
Im assuming you mean RIP not Helm for the AD target. I keep ts blade to fight sfm and hymn vs miracles to jam 2:1 vs them. Mis D is risky but i think its worth the risk. Lilli really hurts miracles, im all in on her in that mu not so much vs blade.

spellpierce
05-21-2013, 08:45 PM
Im assuming you mean RIP not Helm for the AD target. I keep ts blade to fight sfm and hymn vs miracles to jam 2:1 vs them. Mis D is risky but i think its worth the risk. Lilli really hurts miracles, im all in on her in that mu not so much vs blade.

Yup, RIP.
I felt the matchup against miracles is so so favorable that It's not worth risking the hymn. I felt it's a win more and if it's misdirected, it's very2 painful.

What will miracles board against Jund?
Probably they'll board out their Forces for pierces and bomb (humility-ish). Therefore I'm in the opinion that hymn will either resolve (meaning hitting random instead of specific bomb or pierced or -god forbid- misdirected. Whereas REB can at least hit their brainstorm/jace.

And 1 more against blade. Probably if you feel like it, life from the loam is decent choice. probably cut a land for it. Esper is so colour heavy that they can't always afford to fetch basic (not against deathblade tho). Cheap win is always good.

H0tmilk
05-22-2013, 08:20 AM
4 goyf
4 bob
4 Drs
3 BBE
3 thoughtseize
1 Inq
3 hymn
3 abrupt
3 pfires
3 bolt
3 liliana
1 gurruk relentless
1 loam
3 wasteland
3 grove
9 fetch
3 basic
3 badland
2 bayou
1 taiga

Side
2 E plauge
2 thorn of amethest
1 jitte
2 k grips
3 p blast
1 chains
1 abrupt
1 golgari charm
1 pulse

So I plan to run this at an up coming SCG I haven't been to one in about a year and last time I played at an scg I was on Junk. Any advice or suggestions on main and side would be appreciated. I am a bit unsure on my mana base if I should be running the 4 th grove or wasteland and I think my side needs work to be up to par for a big tournament. Anyway please provide constructive feedback thanks in advance.

defector
05-22-2013, 01:24 PM
That list looks fine. Id cut 1 fetch for a wasteland, 8 fetch is fine and i think waste should be a 4 of. Good luck in the scg!

aluisiocsantos
05-22-2013, 04:00 PM
That, and I'd prefer a 4th Abrupt Decay instead of a single Inquisition

zulander
05-22-2013, 05:18 PM
Has anyone else been unhappy with the 1cc discard slots? It seems they're only in the main for control, and I'd rather remove that slot to shore up the tempo matchup. Anyone else feel the same way? Who else notices that they seem to be boarding out thoughtseize more than they'd like?

H0tmilk
05-22-2013, 05:58 PM
The single inq is there because I don't own a 4th thoughtseize and I do like abrupt a lot but dropping to 3 1cmc discard i am not sure on that. I was also considering dropping gurruk for pulse main. And I see a lot of lists run 3 duress side would that be better than some of my SB cards?

aluisiocsantos
05-22-2013, 06:03 PM
The reason for the SB Duresses are because of the combo matchup, to give you more chances to discard turn 1 Show and Tell/Sneak Attack/ANT/TES/Reanimator cards. I think it's strongly advised to do so.

Zulander, what would you consider using instead of TS? I don't really board it out in most matches. Also, see above - Combo matchups which are our demise.

zulander
05-22-2013, 06:10 PM
Thoughtseize is pretty good in the combo matchup, it's "okay" in the control matchup, and is just less than stellar in the tempo/aggro matchups. What I'm thinking of is -4 TS, +4 other card that's good in the tempo/aggro category. I'm not sure what that is right now though.

I don't see a problem with wanting to set my main up best against tempo/control decks and just completely scoop to combo game 1 and board in 8-10 cards for the combo matchup.


EDIT: I think my larger frustration has to be with Liliana. I think it's time for her to sit in the sideboard.

zulander
05-22-2013, 06:56 PM
Here's what my most recent list looks like


Creatures: 18
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Bloodbraid Elf

Disruption: 18
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Taurach
4 Abrupt Decay

Other: 2
2 Sylvan Library

Lands: 22

You'll notice the inclusion of 2 Grims and 2 Forked Bolts. These 4 help tremendously against Tempo, Control (grim is amazing here), and (tribal) aggro decks. I've found that Liliana wasn't doing enough, and that she just wasn't as powerful as she could be. She isn't capable of taking truly taking over games. You'll also notice that this list doesn't include any card over 2CC (excluding BBE) so as to not succumb to waste/stifle openings.

I'm starting to truly see the power of DRS by using his black ability as aggressively as possible. Against BUG/RUG decks you have to proactively remove their GY so as to stop their goyfs/geese/stalkers. Doing so wont always win you the race against their delvers but the inclusion of 8 R spells that can dispose of their delvers you should be fine there.


Also I've noticed many players make some mid-game mistakes against stifle decks by over-extending their lands (yes, there is such a thing). When combating stifle decks patience is a virtue not only in when to fetch, but also in when to play a land. After 2-3 turns it's okay to intentionally miss land drops (esp if DRS is in play) so as to alter your opponents game plan. Imagine you're playing a stifle tempo deck and your Jund opponent has 4 lands in play, are you really going to stifle his next fetch land (5th land for him) or are you going to try and catch his DRS/Goyf/cascade/bob trigger? Chances are they would rather save the stifle for a later, more critical moment in the game. This reason is why I never play more than my 3rd land of the game against stifle tempo. Baiting them into stifling a fetch when you already have 2 lands in play and have another in hand is a much better play for jund than opening up their stifles to board state triggers. I could be wrong here, but it's pretty crappy for the tempo player to stifle your fetch only for you to play another one/two lands the following turns.

rockout
05-22-2013, 07:32 PM
You say that lilianna doesn't take over games? I can see it not taking over games in the game match up but combined with a single piece of removal, lilianna does nothing but work. She's amazing against any deck in the format and helps us get rid of those pesky hex proof creatures or just an opposing goyf with a reusable, relevant ability. I've been running a single life from the loam in the main and one in the sideboard which helps sure up a lot of game ones in the midrange vs. midrange matchups and helps fuel lilianna in the control matchups where they just can't keep up with either recurring wasteland or lilianna +1s.