[Deck] Jund [Archive] - Page 3

razvan

05-26-2013, 11:45 AM

Had another 4-2 tournament, this time finishing 11th, not 10th, despite there being 2 4-2's that made top-8.

Lost to Dredge in a reasonably contested 3-game set where I had to mulligan game 3 and I was at the mercy of my opponent's less than stellar dredges. I did manage to smoke the 3 bridges he had and had a brief glimmer of hope but him dredging the 4th eventually was the nail in the coffin.

Again lost to RUG in 3. This is getting very annoying, I think I am something like 1-7 against RUG since I put Punishing Fire in. He did top-deck a few Rough/Tumbles at opportune moments (and Bolted a goyf afterwards) to 2-1 and 3-2 me, but again it came down to Nimble Mongoose and my horrible mana base. I really do not know what to do other than take out the Punishing Fires and try something else. This is getting to be really bad at the current moment. Hell, maybe even Chain Lightnings might be useful. I always wanted to try those!

I was even debating bringing back MANY Engineered Explosives (probably bad because of Stifle), trying out Diabolic Edict (probably bad because of Spell Snare), and so on. Hell, I was even debating Wall of Blossoms since it at least replaces itself, still bad because of Snare.

I do actually think that maybe Kitchen Finks are necessary. Gotta try it out.

I beat High Tide and ANT (somehow), beat Merfolk and my one RUG win lately, despite having these type of games against Goldfarb:

Game 1: Start with Dual, 2x Fetchland, Shaman, Bob, Bolt, Goyf. Stifle, Stifle, Daze the shaman then waste the dual. GG.
Game 3: Mull to a 2-land hand, get both killed, then proceed to draw mostly land and get threats online, at 1 life I get Ooze and Liliana down.

My actual matchups and opponents:

R1: Conor with High Tide 2-0
R2: Mike Vegh with Dredge 1-2
R3: Caleb with Merfolk 2-0
R4: Dave Goldfarb (more like Dave PROfarb) with RUG 2-1
R5: Jason with RUG 1-2
R6: Spencer with ANT 2-0

zulander

05-26-2013, 02:27 PM

I think Lavamancer is better than PFires, especially against rug. I've come up with another updated main. I may post it later today hopefully.

zulander

05-26-2013, 02:36 PM

Uhm, holy crap:

1R
Young Pyromancer

Creature - Human Shaman
Whenever you cast an instant or sorcery spell, put a 1/1 red Elemental creature token onto the battlefield.
Immolation is the sincerest form of flattery.
2/1

Xtreme

05-27-2013, 06:17 AM

I won a 89 person tournament with Jund. Heres the report + decklist

1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Taiga
2 Bayou
3 Badlands
4 Wasteland
1 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library

SB
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Duress
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Engineered Plague
1 Choke
1 Seal of Primordium
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Grim Lavamancer

First a few notes about the decklist.
-As I dont own enough jund-fetches I had to fill in with fetches that only get one jund-landtype. This came to bite me in the finals, but I managed to topdeck
another land to get me the last color.
-I was expecting a lot of combo and blue midrange decks(esper and bug), the sideboard reflects those exceptations
-Excepting some grindy matches, I would probably have added punishing fire+grove had I owned them. It turned out better not to. After this tournament, I will not add p-fire under any circumstances. the Finnish metagame is full of wasteland, so Im fine without p-fire

I also won a trial to this event with the same maindeck, so I had 2 byes going in.

Round 1-2 Bye

Round 3 Esperblade with lingering souls 2-1
Game 1 He gets stuck on 2 lands after I wasteland hes underground sea and doesnt recover
Game 2 I get beaten by swords on my deathrite, snapcaster swords on my confidant into lingering souls beats
Game 3 I start with land go, then abrupt decaying his turn 2 stoneforge. He doesnt draw gas for a while, and I discard his jace when he has 3 non-blue lands in play

Round 4 Feature match against Merfolk 2-0
http://www.twitch.tv/poromagia/b/408454144 (about 3:15 in the video)

Round 5 against Bug delver(team america) 2-1
Game 1: I was lucky to win the dieroll, because I beleive I would have lost had I not. He gets stuck on lands after a 1-2 wastelands and I'm able to progress my board better than he is.
Game 2: He wastelands + sinkholes me out of the game
Game 3: Being on the play is highly relevant again. We exchange resources and cards till I eventually have a 3/4 goyf, a lavamancer and a deathriteshaman and he has a tombstalker and is at ~10 life. I attack with the goyf into his stalker, it gets through for 3 dmg. I have a lightning bolt and win after a deathrite + lavamancer activation

After this I'm 5-0 and first in standings so I can quite safely ID the next 2 rounds

Result after swiss: 5-0-2 and second in standings.

Top 8:
I play my round 5 opponent with Bug delver again. It turns out he won the rest of the matches he played. Being on the play and a couple of good topdecks win me the game 2-1.

Top 4: Bug cascade 2-0

Top 2: Hivemind combo 2-0

The top 4 matches can be found here: http://www.twitch.tv/poromagia/b/408591963 (about 1:08 in the video)

A notable blunder(amongst others) I made in the finals game 2 was mistapping my mana when playing my confidant, leaving up a wasteland(which I wasnt planning on using) instead of a badlands to cast a bolt. This tilted me of leading to a bigger mistake in forgetting my confidant trigger.

Very happy with the win and the deck. A note I made is that if u have shaman and thoughtseize in your opener, you (almost) always want to start of with shaman. Shaman is IMO the best card in the deck and shot my opponents for a LOT of damage during the event

I apologize to my opponents for having an abysmal ability to remember names and also to take notes had I written something falsely. Overall it was a pleasure to play. Props to my BUG-Delver opponent for the tightest games of the day
Thanks for reading!

Edit: Corrected the decklist

aluisiocsantos

05-27-2013, 09:42 PM

Thats a pretty awesome result man! COngratulations!
Also no PFires! How did you like your sideboard? Were Jittes worthy?

zulander

05-28-2013, 01:04 AM

Grats on the finish!

Xtreme

05-28-2013, 01:18 AM

Thanks for the congrats

And yes, the Jittes were really good. I brought them in in the esper, merfolk and bug cascade games(unsure If I brought them in against Bug delver). Overall I was pleased with the sideboard as I happened to get the matchups I was expecting. My biggest concern going into the tournament was the lack of answers to Leyline of sanctity, but I couldnt figure out how to make that work. Maybe a maelstrom pulse instead of something? Not sure what I would cut though

rockout

05-28-2013, 08:57 AM

Liliana is great against show and tell combo, that's pretty much where the greatness ends imho. She doesn't actually take over any games. I've never heard a competent player say "I lost to Liliana" solely and exclusively. Shifting the main to fit in answers for the entire meta is incorrect imho, and is best to try and focus on certain matchups while having a solidified boarding strategy for decks you just scoop to. I think it's perfectly acceptable to play 8 md discard (TS/Hymn) and board in 3 Red Blast and 3 Edicts against Show and Tell while having a MD that has a 50%+ matchup against delvers, gobos, maverick, and control. Seems pretty damn good if you ask me.

I'm never banking on a single loam to win me games. There's a reason it's a one-of. If I see life from the loam in most matchups, its insane. If I don't see it, I don't care because my deck functions well without it, its just nice to have an engine like a one-of sylvan library to help grind out mirrors or other midrange matchups.

I can see your point about never really losing to liliana because she doesn't have an "I Win," ability on her but she facilitates winning by helping to control the board and your opponents hand. For instance, does deathrite shaman win games? Sometimes, he might do the final points of damage, but most of the time he helps put you into a good position to win like helping to control the board. Every card jund runs helps either control the board ala lili, wasteland, punishing fire combo, and abrupt decay or the grave yard with deathrite and sometimes scavenging ooze or the opponents hand with thoughtseize, hymn, and lili or your own resources with sylvan library and dark confidant.

Zulander: you post an insane amount about Jund from what I've seen in the past few pages, but how you can't see why liliana is good just boggles my mind. Even before the stupid legendary changes where I can cast two lili's in the same turn and make them discard twice or sac twice.

Xtreme

05-28-2013, 11:53 AM

I agree on Liliana being good. Can anyone share their experiences with garruk relentless? Might be able to fit one in instead of a hymn or Liliana

razvan

05-28-2013, 12:05 PM

Garruk is alright against a variety of decks. Miracles in particular doesn't have an easy time with him alongside the rest of your cards. Jund and other midrange decks sometimes come down to reusable resources, not to mention plays like against BUG and Jund:

Turn 1, Shaman
Turn 2, Kill their Shaman somehow
Turn 3, Garruk, Kill their Dark Confidant

He functions as a Bloodbraid Elf in a lot of situations, reflected by his mana, but he is not quite as aggressive, so generally he can only be good in slow games or statemates where everyone is playing Topdeck/Draw/Go and BBE's cascading into removal is not really fantastic.

I wouldn't maindeck him, and he really is only necessary if you have a lot of Miracles and such decks.

zulander

05-28-2013, 02:08 PM

Zulander: you post an insane amount about Jund from what I've seen in the past few pages, but how you can't see why liliana is good just boggles my mind. Even before the stupid legendary changes where I can cast two lili's in the same turn and make them discard twice or sac twice.

I don't remember saying Lili wasn't good, I'm just never compelled to play more than 3 of her (and more realistically, more than 2). I play 2 and I plan on playing 2 for a while, I just don't think she's all that and a bag of chips, and in some meta's it may be okay to just board her in instead of play her in the main (although, that would be fairly rare and at that point jund may not be your best option).

As for Garruk, what Razvan said. He's better in a more control filled meta, and the fact that so many decks can just bolt him isn't very fun. If you're in a control filled meta then I'd suggest seriously thinking about also playing Huntmaster of the Fells as well, but that's just too cute imho.

RedWrathCCG

06-11-2013, 01:56 PM

IrishLegend

06-12-2013, 10:10 AM

I'm surprised this thread been so quiet as of til yesterday... Is this deck still preforming well for you guys? Another question for those of you still playing this deck is the PF version still better or are you going back to the non-PF version?

Xtreme

06-13-2013, 04:01 AM

Did you have access to Chains of Mephistopheles? Would you include them in your sideboard if you did?

Also, would you mind explaining how you sideboarded?

The first thought about chains is that it would probably replace the choke. IMO you need all the help you can get against combo, and chains is most likely better against combo than choke is, while also doing a descent job against "jace + brainstorm"-decks. I havent played against omniclash so I cant say if choke is good there or not.

General thought about sideboarding: I took my friends advice about siding out hymns in grindy matchups( esper and shardless-bug that tournament) because you probably exchange resources and end up in a topdeckwar, where hymn is bad.

I didnt make notes, but this is to my best memory what I sided
Esper:
Out: A combination of Liliana and Hymn(Liliana bad against lingering souls)
in: 2 Jitte and choke

Only relevant target of REB is jace, not worth bringing in IMO

Merfolk:
out: some number of hymn + liliana, Sylvan library, 1 wasteland(on the draw)
in: 3 reb, plague, 2 jitte, lavamancer, choke

Bug-delver: Sorry, cant remeber anything else than bringing in choke. Lilianas stayed in because of fear for tombstalker

Bug cascade:
Out: Hymns,
In: Choke, 2 Jitte, reb

Hivemind:
Out: Aburpt decays, sylvan library, 3 liliana(kept 1 since he had griselbrand), maybe 1 wasteland
in: REBs, duresses, surgical extractions

dave8

06-15-2013, 02:53 AM

Lighning Bebbi

06-17-2013, 12:33 PM

This thread seems to need some exhilaration... :)
Is there still anyone playing Jund?

I do! I played a tournament in Zurich (Switzerland) yesterday.
Think we were a few more than 32 Players. So we played 6 rounds of swiss and Top8.

Here is my list:

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Bayou
3 Badlands
3 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

2 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach

2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard:
2 Nature's Claim
2 Engineered Plague
2 Thoughseize
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Thorn of Amethyst

And my results:
1) Mud 2:0
2) Canadian 2:1
3) Merfolk 2:1
4) Bug Delver 2:0
5) ID
6) ID

Top8) Bug Delver 2:0
Top4) ANT 2:0
Final) Omni Clash 2:1

We split prizes in the final but we played out for the Liga Points. So each of us got 1/2 Tabernacle, Volcanic Island and Plateau.
I was quite satisfied with this list - most of the match-ups just felt great.

If you have any questions on the list or suggestions for the list, let me know!

Regards, Bebbi

lemariont

06-18-2013, 06:01 PM

Lighning Bebbi

06-18-2013, 09:07 PM

First of all.... CONGRATS on the result:cool::cool:

Can you explain your sb plan against each of your opponents???

Many thanks. And yes, is still people playing JUND ¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡

I think......

Thank you!

Round 1: Mud 2:0
+2 Nature's Claim
+2 Thoughtseize
-3 Punishing Fire
-1 Bloodbraid Elf

Claim is obv!
You don’t want to see most of the mud-cards entering the battlefield. Wurmcoil Engine, Steel Hellkite or Chalice of the Void aren’t that easy to handle – so I decided to board in all available discard spells. Punishing Fire only destroys Metalworker. You won’t need that much Bloodbraid Elves to win this MU, but you do want good cards for the very first turns. Sensei’s Divining Top or Liliana will win if both players are in the topdeck mode.

Round 2: Canadian 2:1
+3 Red Elemental Blast
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Punishing Fire

REB is good against particularly Submerge and sometimes Spellsnare.
Since I didn’t play the MU that often I don’t know which is better: Hymn or Thoughtseize?
Thoughtseize takes Nimble Mongoose but the loss of life can be relevant, too. Although I had many outs (Tarmogoyf, Liliana, Bloodbraid Elf) for Mongoose in game 1, I lost against Shroud with 2 Decays in my hand… I boarded out one of three Punishing Fire because you don’t need that much. It only can kill Delver (REB kills it, too) and Tarmogoyf if it fights with your Goyf. Maybe someone can tell us more about his or her experience with RUG Delver.

Round 3: Merfolk 2:1
+3 Red Elemental Blast
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Dark Confidant

REB is obv!
I did not board in some Engineered Plagues, because it hardly kills any of his creatures as they play about 12-16 lords. Loss of life is not the thing you want while fishes are beating you – so I boarded out Thoughtseize. You won’t need a Confidant in the early game, so three are fine.

Note: I lost game 2 because of Mulligan to 5 + infinite flood. Won game 3 with again Mulligan to 5 + resolved Standstill. How? End of turn punishing-fired his Mutavault, after he had no landdrop. End of Turn he had to discard 4 cards. In my turn: Hymn + Hymn. I. Like. :)

Round 4 + 1/4 Final: Bug Delver 2:0 and 2:0
+2 Red Elemental Blast
-2 Thoughtseize

REB particularly for Baleful Strix. Thoughtseize isn’t worth it's lifeloss again and not amazing if they play their good stuff fast enough with Deathrite Shaman.

1/2 Final: ANT 2:0
+2 Thoughtseize
+3 Thorn of Amethyst
+3 Surgical Extraction
-3 Punishing Fire
-4 Abrupt Decay
-1 Bloodbraid Elf

Thoughtseize and Thorn is obv!
Extraction is for: Past in Flames + sometimes Cabal Ritual + hit handcards if you know with other discard spells + exile Lion’s Eye Diamond, because LED on the battlefield is quite dangerous for Jund because you can do nothing against their topdecks (Wish or Tutor).
I don’t think you want REB here. Sometimes it counters bounce spells for Thorn, but this doesn’t matter that much if you can disrupt their hand while they are searching for this kind of solution.
Boarding out Punishing Fire and Decay is obv! -1 Bloodbraid Elf cause it is the weakest among the other remaining 60 cards.

Final: Omni Clash 2:1
+2 Nature's Claim
+2 Thoughtseize
+3 Red Elemental Blast
+3 Surgical Extraction
+3 Thorn of Amethyst
-1 Wasteland
-2 Lightning Bolt
-3 Punishing Fire
-3 Bloodbraid Elf
-4 Abrupt Decay

Thoughtseize + REB is obv!
Thorn is quite cool to drop with Show and Tell and hardcast is even good if you don’t have anything better, because they have lots of Cantrips and stuff. Extraction supports discard spells and REB by exiling their win conditions and great against Intuition which they can take with Cunning Wish.
Nature’s Claim is a cheap answer for Leyline of Sanctity and often surprising to stop their combo turn when you destroy Omniscience or Dream Halls.
Boarding out useless cards is obv!

Best Regards! Bebbi

Xtreme

06-19-2013, 04:31 AM

Congrats and well done!

Fuzzy

06-21-2013, 11:40 AM

Hello everyone!

I'll probably start playing Jund and had one question: How to sideboard on mirror?

from Cairo

06-21-2013, 11:59 AM

I was curious about experienced players SB plans with this deck as well.

I jammed a PFires list at a local and mostly went with a strategy of dropping some discard for additional threats/removal against the fair decks and then dropping some removal for additional disruption against unfair decks. I figured with so few creatures, that they were probably locked into postboard configurations regardless.

I'll probably start playing Jund and had one question: How to sideboard on mirror?

I don't have extensive experience, but I boarded out Hymn to Torach and a couple pointed discard spells for Scavenging Ooze, Umezawa's Jitte and a Life from the Loam.

razvan

06-21-2013, 01:29 PM

Well, it depends on what you have in your sideboard.

Generally, if you have a 4th BBE, that's very good. Anything that's 2 for 1 is good, or re-usable, such as Planeswalkers.

Thoughtseizes *can* be bad on the play, but they are pretty sweet on the draw. Being able to take their removal turn 1, play a Dark Confidant turn 2, then kill their turn 3 play can be game over. So adjust accordingly for games 2 or 3.

Stuff like Umezawa's Jitte is very good if they cannot abrupt Decay it.

You both will spend a lot of removal early on to kill Shamans, Confidants, and the like, so often games become incredibly grindy, and whoever topdecks more BBE usually wins. However, having stuff like Garruk Relentless in the SB (I run 2) is great. He is not that hard to remove (Lightning Bolt, for example), but those will be in demand past turn 4 anyway.

juterz

06-27-2013, 09:52 AM

dave8

06-28-2013, 01:40 AM

Hey, all.

I was just curious on how you guys feel Jund matches up with the current meta (ie. deathblade, mav, omnishow etc.) I'm just coming back to magic from a hiatus, and I was thinking about playing Jund competitively. Thanks!

From my experience Deathblade is a favorable matchup.
If you own Chains of Mephistopheles then Omnishow is favorable too.
None experience against Maverick though.

Fatal

06-28-2013, 03:35 AM

Depends on SB and Maverick build it can be from 40% to 60% for us.

Good SB vs Maverick:
- Virtue's Ruin,
- Engineered Plague (on Humans)
- Life from the Loam
- Grim Lavamancer

Card which is painful for us in Maverick:
- Punishing Fire (it is painful in both sides)
- Life form the Loam
- Scavenging Ooze
- Mother of Runes turn 1.
- Batterskull
- Sylvan Safekeeper
- Elspeth - remember they have it sometimes on SB

There are two plans vs Maverick:
1. Discard Removal and Bob advantage
2. Overhelming with Threads with Removal from Bob/BBE/Liliana.

JJ-JKidd

07-02-2013, 06:48 AM

I find Shardless BUG a tough MU. Whats the game plan against them?

Xtreme

07-02-2013, 07:26 AM

I find Shardless BUG a tough MU. Whats the game plan against them?

I agree. I tried garruk in the side but at least in this MU a 4th BB-Elf is better. Discard is pretty bad(thoughtseize can be fine) and removal is good. The biggest advantage after BB-elf we have against them is lightning bolt, which takes care of shaman, clique and ocationally jace. Jitte is supergood on any side of the table. If your meta has a lot of shardless bug, I'd probably put some number of jittes and lavamancers in my 75.
First I thought CA is all that matters, but I lost my last game against shardless-bug with a sylvan library and confidant in play, after he EOT-clique into equip jitte. So while CA is important, its even more important to control the board. With that said, hymn is the first card I'd cut when sideboarding

Wasteland is also a gamble in this MU if u dont know their hand. Blind-wastelanding should IMO be a last resort if you cant do anything relevant on your turn with the additional mana
I dont run pfires, which probably makes this MU worse for me compared to a p-fires build
Im also unsure of how good thoughtseize and liliana are in this MU

Zombie

07-02-2013, 07:37 AM

I assume most of that holds vs. Elves, too, except that spot discard is better than against Shardless?

Xtreme

07-02-2013, 07:39 AM

I assume most of that holds vs. Elves, too, except that spot discard is better than against Shardless?

I dont have any experience with jund against elfs unfortunately, maybe someone who's played that MU can help out here

lemariont

07-02-2013, 06:18 PM

Thats way many people leave 2 o 3 slots in the sb for the engineered plague, I think.

Its really a hard match if you cant find a plague quickly. Sideboarding in discard (duress for natural order or glimpse) helps a lot too.....

Zombie

07-02-2013, 06:24 PM

You want to hate us, bring in Perish. It does more damage than Plague does. If you don't want something so Elves-specific, Golgari Charm.

JJ-JKidd

07-02-2013, 09:30 PM

I agree. I tried garruk in the side but at least in this MU a 4th BB-Elf is better. Discard is pretty bad(thoughtseize can be fine) and removal is good. The biggest advantage after BB-elf we have against them is lightning bolt, which takes care of shaman, clique and ocationally jace. Jitte is supergood on any side of the table. If your meta has a lot of shardless bug, I'd probably put some number of jittes and lavamancers in my 75.
First I thought CA is all that matters, but I lost my last game against shardless-bug with a sylvan library and confidant in play, after he EOT-clique into equip jitte. So while CA is important, its even more important to control the board. With that said, hymn is the first card I'd cut when sideboarding

Wasteland is also a gamble in this MU if u dont know their hand. Blind-wastelanding should IMO be a last resort if you cant do anything relevant on your turn with the additional mana
I dont run pfires, which probably makes this MU worse for me compared to a p-fires build
Im also unsure of how good thoughtseize and liliana are in this MU

I dont have much experience with the deck but what I do know is the card advantage that BUG generates through Strix, Visions, Agent, is just too much to handle pre-board. Remember, BUG cascades earlier than Jund. I also remembered post-board having Chains of M on the play in my opening seven, discarded him and saw Thoughtseize, Hymn, Liliana, Visions, and Decay and I was pondering how would I keep my Chains alive.

Kl'rt

07-02-2013, 11:18 PM

I dont have much experience with the deck but what I do know is the card advantage that BUG generates through Strix, Visions, Agent, is just too much to handle pre-board. Remember, BUG cascades earlier than Jund. I also remembered post-board having Chains of M on the play in my opening seven, discarded him and saw Thoughtseize, Hymn, Liliana, Visions, and Decay and I was pondering how would I keep my Chains alive.

I've play-tested this matchup from both sides, and I found it was pretty even. Yes, Shardless BUG has card advantage with Strix, Visions and Agent, but we have just as much card advantage from Bob, Punishing Fire and Bloodbraid Elf. I found that in the games where they cannot deal with Punishing Fire, they get absolutely wrecked. Punishing Fire kills every one of their creatures, and wins 'goyf wars.

Also, if we get a fast start and they have to wait for a suspended Visions to resolve, by the time they get to draw all those cards, they're usually just about dead and cannot recover to deal with the board state we have developed.

Maybe I have to test this more, but so far, my results are that they're quite even.

JJ-JKidd

07-03-2013, 01:25 AM

I've play-tested this matchup from both sides, and I found it was pretty even. Yes, Shardless BUG has card advantage with Strix, Visions and Agent, but we have just as much card advantage from Bob, Punishing Fire and Bloodbraid Elf. I found that in the games where they cannot deal with Punishing Fire, they get absolutely wrecked. Punishing Fire kills every one of their creatures, and wins 'goyf wars.

Also, if we get a fast start and they have to wait for a suspended Visions to resolve, by the time they get to draw all those cards, they're usually just about dead and cannot recover to deal with the board state we have developed.

Maybe I have to test this more, but so far, my results are that they're quite even.

So getting PFires online will be the key. Kindly provide updates on your next testing. Thanks

Dark Lord

07-03-2013, 09:23 PM

My current list:

Lands:
3x Badlands
2x Bayou
3x Wasteland
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Swamp
1x Forest
3x Bloodstained Mire
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Wooded Foothills

Instants:
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Punishing Fire
3x Lightning Bolt

Sorceries:
3x Hymn to Tourach
4x Thoughtseize
1x Maelstrom Pulse

Creatures:
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
3x Bloodbraid Elf

Enchantments:
1x Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers:
4x Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard:
3x Red Elemental Blast
1x Duress
1x Perish
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Pernicious Deed
1x Life from the Loam
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Krosan Grip
2x Engineered Plague
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Extirpate

Getting ready to run the gauntlet for testing for upcoming SCG events, and after shelving the Griselbrands and Show and Tells, looking at running either Jund or URW Miracles.

The current list above has proven well locally here, putting up solid wins against top tiered decks piloted by skilled magicians.

Just looking for some pointers on where I can shore up some of the decks weakness's (combo obviously). As well as open opinion on the deck itself and where it sits in today's current Legacy structure.

Some things I am not sure about:

The splits between removal (abrupt decay, lighting bolt, punishing fire)
Sideboard choices for a broader field of decks
Is the use of Pyroblast better then Red Elemental Blast based purely on the fact that you can just cycle it off of a Cascade to a non-blue permanent, instead of putting it on the bottom of the library to reuse later?

I have a Chains of Mephistopheles incoming to add to the sideboard. Will probably drop an E. Plague or a P. Deed to fit it in.

Also was wondering about Umezawa's Jitte and how it fares for anyone who has any time testing it. Is it worth a slot? Likewise with Pithing Needle?

Xtreme

07-04-2013, 06:14 AM

My current list:
....
Some things I am not sure about:

Is the use of Pyroblast better then Red Elemental Blast based purely on the fact that you can just cycle it off of a Cascade to a non-blue permanent, instead of putting it on the bottom of the library to reuse later?

I have a Chains of Mephistopheles incoming to add to the sideboard. Will probably drop an E. Plague or a P. Deed to fit it in.

Also was wondering about Umezawa's Jitte and how it fares for anyone who has any time testing it. Is it worth a slot? Likewise with Pithing Needle?

Misdirection cant target pyroblast profitably, where it can target REB

Jitte has been fantastic in the sideboard. Many decks lose or get into a huge hole after jitte connecting. I like it against every deck playing deathrite shamans and small dudes, and that includes quite many dekcs

razvan

07-04-2013, 01:47 PM

Misdirection cant target pyroblast profitably, where it can target REB

Jitte has been fantastic in the sideboard. Many decks lose or get into a huge hole after jitte connecting. I like it against every deck playing deathrite shamans and small dudes, and that includes quite many dekcs
Misdirection can target itself with REB and Pyroblast no?

Xtreme

07-05-2013, 02:23 AM

Misdirection can target itself with REB and Pyroblast no?

You chose a mode, either "destroy target permanent" or "counter target spell". If you're countering a blue spell then misdirection can switch the target to itself from both Pyroblast and reb. If you're destroying a permanent, misdirection can target only blue permanents with REB, but any permanent with pyroblast(and if isnt blue, it wont be destroyed).

So my previous answer was actually misleading. Im not sure which of these is better for us as we dont have any blue permanents ourselves. If u happen to run into phantasmal images copying non-blue creatures then you want pyroblast. The difference is really small, Im running REBS myself as they are available to me(+ they are beta).

juterz

07-05-2013, 02:31 AM

Is the use of Pyroblast better then Red Elemental Blast based purely on the fact that you can just cycle it off of a Cascade to a non-blue permanent, instead of putting it on the bottom of the library to reuse later?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think REB would be better for jund than pyroblast. VERY situational though.

here's a situation:

Only one blue permanent on the board (opponent's since we don't run blue).
you target it with reb choosing the "destroy target blue permanent" mode.
your opponent can't misdirect it to anything coz he won't have any other legal targets for the reb.

if it was a pyroblast, he could misdirect it to any other permanent you have but not destroy it. thus saving that blue permanent you wanted to destroy in the first place.

from Cairo

07-05-2013, 02:41 AM

There are corner cases for each Blast.

Pyro can be cast off a BBE w/o a Blue target and fuel a Tarmogoyf/Deathrite Shaman.
Pyro can target a Phantasmal Image copying anything and blow it up.

REB can't be Diverted/Misdirected to one of our permanents if being used in the destroy a Blue permanent mode (Delver, Jace, Omniscience).

I think it's pretty marginal, but I would prefer personally that my REBs in 'Vindicate mode' hit a Blue permanent, versus decks like RUG and Jace.dec. I'm on that side of the camp. I can't really argue though if your meta has a lot of Shardless and Merfolk, maybe Pyro's fringe perks will do more work for you.

Dark Lord

07-05-2013, 02:13 PM

Yeah I understand both sides of the corner cases.

Personally I use the REB over the pyroblast, but a buddy pointed me to an older article (Reid Duke perhaps) that has suggested using Pyroblast instead just to increase the chance to fuel the graveyard off a wasted Cascade. I was just looking for some more insight into whether this was actually a relevant thing or a small chance that just happens sometimes.

Ish

07-05-2013, 02:26 PM

REB can't be Diverted/Misdirected to one of our permanents if being used in the destroy a Blue permanent mode (Delver, Jace, Omniscience).

That's irrelevant. It can just target the divert/misdirect. Same outcome the blue deck wanta most likely... It's "countered".

from Cairo

07-05-2013, 07:17 PM

That's irrelevant. It can just target the divert/misdirect. Same outcome the blue deck wanta most likely... It's "countered".

Wrong. You chose a mode. If you are using the "Destroy a Blue permanent" mode, it can't be directed to the Divert or Misdirection as they are not permanents and are invalid targets.

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/print.php?Article=21311

Ish

07-06-2013, 12:04 AM

Wrong. You chose a mode. If you are using the "Destroy a Blue permanent" mode, it can't be directed to the Divert or Misdirection as they are not permanents and are invalid targets.

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/print.php?Article=21311

Ah yes. I stand corrected.

juterz

07-08-2013, 02:24 PM

Okay. I'm relatively new to this deck and I played the mirror for the first time today. Won 2-0, but I feel like I just got lucky by getting more BBEs and getting the punishing-grove thing online earlier. What really bugs me about it is the fact that I didn't board in/out a single thing after the first game.

Here's my SB:

2 nature's claim
3 REB
3 thorn of amethyst
2 duress
2 engineered plague
1 choke
2 surgical extraction

Here are the splits of the "variable" cards I run in my mb (the removal/discard split)

4 Pfires
3 abrupt decays
2 bolts
4 lilianas
4 thoughtseize
3 hymns

Could I have boarded anything in/out to make the mirror any easier?

And on an unrelated note, I feel like I need to add a pulse in my 75. Considering cutting a liliana or replacing a card in my SB for one. I just feel like it'd be a good "hit anything" out against leylines/multiple KotR/etc. What do you guys think?

from Cairo

07-08-2013, 03:29 PM

Here are the splits of the "variable" cards I run in my mb (the removal/discard split)

4 Pfires
3 abrupt decays
2 bolts
4 lilianas
4 thoughtseize
3 hymns

Could I have boarded anything in/out to make the mirror any easier?

And on an unrelated note, I feel like I need to add a pulse in my 75. Considering cutting a liliana or replacing a card in my SB for one. I just feel like it'd be a good "hit anything" out against leylines/multiple KotR/etc. What do you guys think?

For the "variable" slots I run your configuration: -1 Liliana, -1 Punishing Fire, +1 Maelstrom Pulse, +1 Fetchland. I run 15 guys, with 2 Sylvans rather than the Sylvan Library / Life from the Loam split. I like having Maelstrom Pulse for the hit anything card in the main, it comes up rarely, but is usually good.

Okay. I'm relatively new to this deck and I played the mirror for the first time today. Won 2-0, but I feel like I just got lucky by getting more BBEs and getting the punishing-grove thing online earlier. What really bugs me about it is the fact that I didn't board in/out a single thing after the first game.

Here's my SB:

2 nature's claim
3 REB
3 thorn of amethyst
2 duress
2 engineered plague
1 choke
2 surgical extraction

I think you were correct not to board anything in from that SB.

I think you could afford to drop Engineered Plague in the Punishing Fire build. You're pretty well set up against Tribes. Plague I guess knocks out Empty the Warrens tokens as well, but I might replace them with something like Umezawa's Jitte, Scavenging Ooze, Maelstrom Pusle, 4th Abrupt Decay - If you were to say do Decay/Pulse and Jitte/Ooze they can often pad the same match ups and it gives you a couple cards to come in over Hymn to Tourach in the mirror.

juterz

07-09-2013, 01:13 AM

I think you could afford to drop Engineered Plague in the Punishing Fire build. You're pretty well set up against Tribes. Plague I guess knocks out Empty the Warrens tokens as well, but I might replace them with something like Umezawa's Jitte, Scavenging Ooze, Maelstrom Pusle, 4th Abrupt Decay - If you were to say do Decay/Pulse and Jitte/Ooze they can often pad the same match ups and it gives you a couple cards to come in over Hymn to Tourach in the mirror.

Here's my mb for reference:

23 Lands (4 groves, 3 waste, 8 fetches etc.)

12 goyfs/bobs/shamans
3 BBE
1 Ooze

4 Pfires
3 Decays
2 Bolts
4 Thoughtseize
3 hymns

4 Lilianas
1 divining top

i'm gonna try out your suggestions and go -1 liliana, +1 pulse mb and probably -2 plague, +1 decay, +1 jitte in my sb. i put the plagues there, mostly, for mavs. naming humans to deal with possibly resolved moms. but i guess jitte would do that to. i'm gonna test some more and see if i'd want to cut that pfire for another topdeck fixer. thanks!

Dark Lord

07-09-2013, 05:43 PM

For the "variable" slots I run your configuration: -1 Liliana, -1 Punishing Fire, +1 Maelstrom Pulse, +1 Fetchland. I run 15 guys, with 2 Sylvans rather than the Sylvan Library / Life from the Loam split. I like having Maelstrom Pulse for the hit anything card in the main, it comes up rarely, but is usually good.

Are you running 24 lands then?

Also any consideration for the fourth Liliana with the upcoming rules change. Cascading into a second one won't be such a drawback like before.

Cryoclasm

07-16-2013, 05:01 AM

Here are my 2 cents:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Bloodbraid Elf

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire

1 Sylvan Library

1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach

3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

SB:
3 Duress
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Pyroblast
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Pithing Needle
3 Random Slots

I found Pernicious Deed to be excellent answer to tribes, Maverick, UB-Tezzerator and even UW-Miracles. Since Aggroloam is popular in our meta I choose to play 4 basics which can build me indestructible manabase.
I don't get how people manage to play Nature's Claim in in the world of Chalice of the Void for 1, which shuts down almost half of the deck. So far I am quite satisfied with almost any matchups. I love 4th Lightning Bolt, I am always happy to see it since I don't want their Lackey or Mother of Runes or DRS to live for more than 1 turn. It also allows to switch to burn mode early and fry my opponent when he is behind Moat or a pack of Angels. I don't like Sensei Divining Top, since you are always short on mana since deck is mana-hungry and greedy for spells, that is also a reason why I play Surgical instead of Extirpate.

from Cairo

07-16-2013, 02:30 PM

Are you running 24 lands then?

Also any consideration for the fourth Liliana with the upcoming rules change. Cascading into a second one won't be such a drawback like before.

Yes 24 land.

Creatures 15
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

Sorceries 8
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Instants 8
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Lightning Bolt

Planeswalkers 3
3 Liliana of the Veil

Enchantments 2
2 Sylvan Library

Land 24
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Swamp
1 Forest

Sideboard 15
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Duress
2 Nature's Claim
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Life from the Loam
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge

Liliana definitely gets better. There are times I'm still not that excited to see multiples in opening hands, but being able to play them out as Cruel Edicts is definitely a plus. I plan to pick up the 4th and test it.

Dark Lord

07-16-2013, 05:47 PM

Yes 24 land.

Creatures 15
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

Sorceries 8
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Instants 8
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Lightning Bolt

Planeswalkers 3
3 Liliana of the Veil

Enchantments 2
2 Sylvan Library

Land 24
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Swamp
1 Forest

Sideboard 15
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Duress
2 Nature's Claim
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Life from the Loam
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge

Liliana definitely gets better. There are times I'm still not that excited to see multiples in opening hands, but being able to play them out as Cruel Edicts is definitely a plus. I plan to pick up the 4th and test it.

Your list is very, very similar to mine. My only changes to the main deck are:

-1 Bayou
-1 Sylvan Library

+1 Punishing Fire (although I am still not sure if this should be a 4th A.D. or 3rd L.B.)
+1 Liliana OTV

Lately I have found that I wanted the 3rd Bayou (or perhaps another Badlands/Taiga) but I don't want to really make the jump up to 24 overall. I was playing the 2nd library like you, but after the rules change I have made the switch to up the Liliana count. Not sure this will stick or not, as landing a Library early along with Dark Confidant seem to lead to blow outs in the card advantage department. The only bad thing I didn't like was drawing into the 2nd Library early, as its often a dead draw.

What's your thoughts on dropping down to 2 Hymns and upping the Lightning Bolt / Punishing Fire count, with all the mid range creature decks running around the extra removal would help and can board into more hand disruption G2/G3 for the control/combo matches.

from Cairo

07-16-2013, 07:03 PM

Lately I have found that I wanted the 3rd Bayou (or perhaps another Badlands/Taiga) but I don't want to really make the jump up to 24 overall. I was playing the 2nd library like you, but after the rules change I have made the switch to up the Liliana count. Not sure this will stick or not, as landing a Library early along with Dark Confidant seem to lead to blow outs in the card advantage department. The only bad thing I didn't like was drawing into the 2nd Library early, as its often a dead draw.

What's your thoughts on dropping down to 2 Hymns and upping the Lightning Bolt / Punishing Fire count, with all the mid range creature decks running around the extra removal would help and can board into more hand disruption G2/G3 for the control/combo matches.

My numbers are mostly gauged off of how frequently and at what point in the game I want to be seeing cards. The 4 ofs I want to see in my opener, and I want to see multiple copies of in just about every match up. The 3 of's I hope to see a single copy of in the early-mid game, but am content with seeing 2 of them in this time frame as well. I don't want to be flooded with several copies of these cards as for the most part they are mana intensive (Pfire/BBE) or lose value in multiples (Hymn). The 2 ofs, Lightning Bolt is redundant removal I have 8 pieces that cost 1-2 and 4 at 3cc; Library I elaborate on later. The singleton Maelstrom Pulse is there for utility and occasional blow outs.

I'm a very strong advocate of 2 Sylvan Library in both this deck and Maverick. I've had the 2 Sylvans in the opening 10 cards or so come up a couple times. On at least one of those occasions my opponent (UW Miracles), correctly, chose to counter the first one and I was glad to have the follow up. A subsequent copy can be discarded to Liliana at times too. I like the 2 Library as Dark Confidants 5-6, and as you point out they work great together. The card is very important to ensure that you find relevant top decks: removal, pressure, avoiding hand rip in top deck mode, etc. I cannot see myself running only one copy of this card as it would be a factor in fewer games. I do board it out against some of the combo matches, but I feel it pulls weight against 80-90% of decks.

On the addition of more removal over Hymn, I think it can be a meta call. I like the configuration that I've settled on with 4 1cc pointed discard and then the 6 larger pieces of advantage. In game 1s I like having the ability to play this card regularly in the early game, where it can really punish an opponent that didn't have a read on what deck they were facing. I find with 3 copies there is a strong chance of seeing it early when it is relevant and hopefully will have a card advantage engine online in the midgame to make 'dead' copies less relevant (Library, Dark Confidant, Liliana). Hymn to Tourach does get boarded out fairly frequently, where I'm often opting against creatures to bring in Jitte, ScOoze, and Abrupt Decay. It also remains a major player against combo when the deck can board up to 7 1cc discard and still wants the 6 pieces of follow up.

juterz

07-21-2013, 01:58 PM

Got in to the top 8 of a medium sized local yesterday. (65 players)

this was my list

4 deathrite
4 tarmogoyf
4 dark confidant
3 BBE

4 PFire
2 bolt
3 abrupt decay

1 maelstrom pulse
4 thoughtseize
3 hymn

4 liliana OTV
1 sylvan library

4 verdant catacombs
3 bloodstained mire
2 wooded foothills
2 bayou
3 badlands
3 wasteland
1 forest
1 swamp
4 grove of the burnwillows

SB:
2 nature's claim
3 duress
2 thron of amethyst
1 reb
1 pyroblast
1 loam
1 scavenging ooze
2 surgical extraction
1 nihil spellbomb
1 choke

dont think i can give too much of a detailed report other than matchups and results.

Round 1: Shardless BUG, 2-0
both games were won off (mostly) deathrite shaman. ca wasnt much of an issue as much as controlling the board was. took out a BBE after game 1 since i boarded in reactive spells like reb and pyroblast.

-1 pfire, -2 liliana, -1 BBE, +1 reb, +1 pyroblast, +1 ooze, +1 loam

Round 2: MUD, 2-0
got his trinisphere g1 from my thoughtseize and had pfire/grove online before he could get his metalworkers running. g2, i was pretty much ahead too the whole time. had an early bolt to deal with a turn 2 lodestone golem. lucky, perhaps.

-2 pfire, -2 liliana, -2 BBE +1 loam, +3 duress, +2 nature's claim

Round 3: 4c Cascade, 2-0
g1 was rather quick 2 big goyfs going all the way, pretty much. got him screwed on mana g2 after seeing he only had 2 fetches while i topdecked a second wasteland on turn 3.

-3 hymn, -1 liliana, +1 loam, +1 ooze, +1 reb, +1 pyro

Round 4: UWr Miracles (with mb rip+helm), 2-0
had a bajillion threats coming in game 1, w/o him getting his rip despite the sensei. g2 was REALLY grindy, got a big chunk of his life with bob while he had 2 RIPs in play. eventually got a pulse from my sylvan library to deal with those.

-2 pfire, -3 liliana, +2 nature's claim, 1 thorn of amethyst, +1 reb, +1 pyroblast

Round 5: RUG delver, 0-2
i know....... of all the matchups to lose to... g1, he was on the play, got tempo-ed to death while his mongoose goes all the way. g2 was really bad, at one point he had 2 mongoose in play and i had a tarmogoyf to block. he had 2 submerges in hand.. :/

-2 pfire, -3 hymn, -1 BBE +1 pyro, +1 reb, +1 choke, +1 loam, +1 spellbomb, +1 ooze

Round 6: Patriot delver, 2-0
geists couldn't get past goyfs/bobs, delvers and lavamancers are checked by pfires/bolts/decays.

-3 hymn, -1 pfire, +1 pyro, +1 reb, +1 loam, +1 choke

Round 7: ID

Played against the same guy i played against in round 4 in the top8 and lost 1-2. won game 1 by having threat after threat on the board, like round 4, g2 was just as grindy (if not grindy-er), and i lost g3 coz of a couple of misplays. :/

Flopnuts72

07-23-2013, 10:47 PM

I am going to the MN GP in a week!! It will be my first Big tournament!! I was wondering what some good SB options and plans against the decks to beat? (What to take out and put in with my SB or other sb options) also what problem matches others have had??? I am testing the pyroclasm because I have has some problems against elves and Geist of saint Traft/ deathblade. It comes down a turn earlier and has some good results but I am open to some other ideas. This is the list that have been running for reference apart from switching bolts,decay, hym, sylvan, and fire around slightly depending on the mood I'm in. Any advice for a GP Is greatly appreciated!!!! Thanks!!!
60 main / 15 sideboard
Creatures:15
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf
Spells:23
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Punishing Fire
1 Sylvan Library
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Lands:23
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard:15
3 Duress
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pyroclasm

Flopnuts72

07-24-2013, 01:52 AM

Or has anyone tried a version without Hym maybe something like this??? Has anyone had any good results with slaughter games???
61 main
Creatures:15
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf
Spells:23
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Punishing Fire
2 Sylvan Library
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Lands:23
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills

from Cairo

07-24-2013, 02:05 AM

Has anyone had any good results with slaughter games???

I tried it as a 1-of in my Sideboard for a couple weeks locally. I brought it in pretty frequently hoping to get a chance to gauge it's performance and never drew it. It seems like it would be good against other fair decks and slower combo decks. I replaced it with a 3rd Surgical Extraction when a regular Oops All Spells player started coming to our locals.

spector14

07-26-2013, 04:22 AM

Hi guys!
Sunday will participate in the Grand Prix to be held in Rimini and which deck to bring if not the jund?

I'm leaving now with the list that then I will analyze:

Lands: 23

3 wasteland
1 swamp
1 forest
4 bloodstaire mire
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Verdant catacomb
3 badlands
3 bayou
4 grove of the burnwillows

4 Creatures: 16
4 Bloodbraid elf
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathride shaman

4 Planswalker: 4

4 Liliana of the Veil

4 sorceries: 7

4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach

3 Istants: 8

4 Abrupt decay
4 punishing fire

4 Enchantaments: 2

2 Sylvan Library

SIDEBOARD:

2 Duress
2 surgical extraction
1 slaughter games
2 engineered plague
2 phiting needle
2 Krosan grip
3 red elemental blast
1 pernicious deed

LANDS: I would say that up there we all agree, it's already been a while that this combinzione of land uses having regard to its stability, apart from a few who prefer 1x taiga to protect themselves from overwork on the bayou but I personally do not scares so much!

CREATURES: Here, too, everything is normal except the taboo of the fourth elf, for as I see it is certainly not that slime in more or less quell'elfa you change the match, but since I want to be as aggressive as possible against aggro I keep strict control and the fourth elf!

Planeswalkers: I would say that with the new rule has officially become the final 4x, there is no more excuse that he may judge for giocarne 3!

Sorceries: Seize not discussed, however hymn 3 is the right number because it is situational to the deck, I do not ever want to see because usually the second round is always an alternative!

ISTANTS:
Here I came to this configuration after you have tried the configuration with lightning 3 3 3 decay punishing and also the one with lightning 2 3 4 decay and punishing, in my opinion 4 4 decay and fire are great, they help us to keep the field clean and earn a slot for ..

The second sylvan library! between confidants and sylvan we have 6 cards that make us do monstrous and benefit from what I've been able to test, only the library makes us take home MU complicated as maverick even though he partly strong, play 1x of this paper is too little and waiver volentierissimo a lightning strike for a bomb like that!

SIDE: Here logically is always personal because it always depends on the goal that we have to deal with, but with a good side so you're a little bit of everything!

Analyzed my 2 cents I wanted to know what you think! advice and criticism are welcome ;)

razvan

07-26-2013, 02:38 PM

Not having Lightning Bolts will make it a problem vs. Delver decks. Also it reduces your range quite a bit.

I don't think I could ever cut a single one.

crow_mw

07-27-2013, 09:43 AM

You are not playing any basic mountains. Why have 4 Bloodstained Mire and 3 Wooded Foothills but only 1 Verdant Catacombs? Any fetch will get any of your duals, but only catacombs grab your both basics...

I really like second library, though I am more inclined to play it over 4th Liliana, than 9th instant.

Let us know in detail how did the singleton Slaughter Games perform for you.

spector14

07-27-2013, 01:05 PM

Not having Lightning Bolts will make it a problem vs. Delver decks. Also it reduces your range quite a bit.

I don't think I could ever cut a single one.

it is true what you say in fact I thought so to fix the main deck:

-1 BBE -1 Abrupt Decay +2 Bolts

You are not playing any basic mountains. Why have 4 Bloodstained Mire and 3 Wooded Foothills but only 1 Verdant Catacombs? Any fetch will get any of your duals, but only catacombs grab your both basics...

I really like second library, though I am more inclined to play it over 4th Liliana, than 9th instant.

Let us know in detail how did the singleton Slaughter Games perform for you.

Only for a problem of lack of them, in fact I will try to bring me :)
2 slaughter were too many for me! you say you should be in 2x?

crow_mw

07-27-2013, 01:37 PM

No, I ask about Slaughter Games, because I am not sure how good it is.

If you remove one of the Abrupt Decays I would consider replacing one of the Krosan Grips in the side with the fourth Abrupt Decay. What are you boarding in Krosan Grips against anyway? Sneak Attack?

from Cairo

07-27-2013, 02:38 PM

If you're representing :2::g: I think smart Sneak Attack players wont open up holes in priority between resolving their Sneak Attack and activating it. The only opposing card that I think Krosan Grip has a real jump on is Batterskull. For most Artifacts and Enchantments I would prefer Nature's Claim's lower converted mana cost.

DOM

07-27-2013, 05:04 PM

The fetchland configuration is definitely wrong. Verdant Catacombs is a definite 4-off and Bloodstained Mire is a better pick than Wooded Foothills. So the right numbers would be either 4-4, 4-3-2 or 4-4-1 based on the amount of fechlands you want to run.

I wouldn't play less than four Lilianas. She's just too good to be replaced with something, besides, there already are two flex slots in Punishing Jund (4th Punishing Fire and S.L. in spector's list assuming one Abrupt Decay and one Bloodbraid Elf are replaced with Lightning Bolts). I'm not a huge fan of four Punishing Fires myself because it's pretty weak unless you manage to draw and keep Grove of the Burnwillows on board, but it's optional, I guess.

Krosan Grip is a good answer to Omni-Tell as well as Batterskull and handful of other cards, so it's okay to pack some. But Slaughter Games is a really bad choice. Its mana cost is too big to make it effective and other cards are in fact better in most situations.

LEH

07-28-2013, 08:59 AM

I'm more of a supporter of Seal of Primordium in Jund over both Nature's Claim and Krosan Grip due to the reduced possibility of a bad Cascade with Bloodbraid Elf. At least if you Cascade into a Seal it sticks around if there are no Artifacts or Enchantments in play at the time, also Goyfs generally like the fact that Seal, itself, is an Enchantment too.

juterz

07-28-2013, 10:05 AM

Seal of Primordium does sound awesome, improving cascade chanses even a little.

razvan

07-30-2013, 01:41 PM

I do not know where I could fit in Seal of Primordium, but it is a great idea.

I usually run a 1-of Ancient Grudge, and I seem to anecdotal-ly draw it whenever I need it, and Seal could serve the same function. But what to take out?

Flopnuts72

07-31-2013, 01:56 AM

I played in a local tournament tonight and thought I would post my results. this is my deck for reference.
60main / 15 sideboard
Creatures:15
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf
Spells:22
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Punishing Fire
1 Sylvan Library
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Lands:23 3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard:15
3 Duress
3 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Engineered plague / I wanted to test pyroclasm but they are at a friends house so I decide to keep plague
1 Choke

Match 1 Lands depths combo/punishing fire
He won the roll, decide to keep a hand with decay 2bob 4 lands. He almost empties his hand Land, mox, exploration, ghost quarter pass. I play a fetch and pass. He spends his turn getting a crucible on line then he passes after making me get a swamp with ghost. I play a land then get a forest to decay crucible. I land bobs and he can't recover in time. 1/0 g2 -3 hym - 2 thoughtsese +3 surgical +2 ancient grudge I keep a hand with goyf and surgical ect. I keep 7 he keeps 7 and does a similar play mox, exploration, land, waste, pass. I lay fetch pass he wastes my fetch I get swamp he Loams ect. 1 mana open and 2 cards in hand, I hope he doesn't have the cycle land. eot surgical loam and it works he then gets punishing going but it is not enough 2/0

Match 2 Storm he won the roll and I keep a hand with waste bolt bob goyf and lands not knowing what he is playing. He lays down a underground sea and passes. I waste, pass. He has plays nothing discards burning wish now I know he's on storm. so I lay goyf and try to get in as much as I can. He goes off at the last second he can then wins. 0/1 g2 -3 bloodbraid -3punish -3 decay -sylvan - pulse +3 duress +3 pyro +3 surgical +2 e plague I mull to 6 because of no land keep a hand with thoughtseize, surgical, 2 land goyf. I thoughtseize and take led and he has 2 chain vapor, dark rit, and cabal rit left in hand. I surgical led and end up getting there with goyfs and bobs. 1/1 g3 he thinks over his hand and I act like I'm doing the same but I have the nuts!!! I have thoughtseize, surgical, hym, liliana, and at least 2 lands maybe 3. He plays island and passes. I thoughtseize hit a infernal tutor. He has led, cabal, dark rit, gemstone, fetch. I surgical infernal getting 2 total thinking he had 4 so he could chain them. Then I hym followed by liliana +1 the rest of the game until I hit deathrite and ping him until I won!!! 2/0 start against 2 decks I don't want to see.

Match 3 idk what he is on but he knows what I'm playing but I don't know his. I win the roll and keep a hand with thoughtsese, badlands, fetch, goyf, bob, liliana, and punishing fire. I fire thoughtseize and see 2 swords, stifle, ponder, waste, 2 fetch. I think about it for a bit because I want to take the ponder so can't see/plan the next couple of hands. But then he has waste stifle and can keep my lands locked down. I don't know what the best decision is and decide to take stifle. He wastes then passes. I peel a grove lay the fetch crack and get swamp so I can have all my mana and play around stifle. He lays a land and ponders. I lay a land then bob. He lays a land then swords. I am stuck at 2 land and play goyf. He lays a land and then stoneforge for batter skull. I lay bayou and punish stone with him taped out. He finds a Geist of the Traft then I find liliana I cast it resolves!!! Sac no he has stifle!! (Damn). I pass he swings at lili and me. I get a bloodbraid and pass. I'm hoping for a land because I'm dead in 2 turns. I get one it resolves and so does the cascade and I hit a liliana!!!! Only to have it spell spell pierced. I leave up elf to block but he finds removal and wins. 0/1 g2 -3 hym -2decay -1waste +1 choke +3 pyro +2 ancient grudge( I don't know if this is right but it's what I tried I think I should have left in decay and took out bolts/ maybe leave in waste). I have to mull down to 5 because of 1 land hands. I end up keeping with fetch deathrite, choke, liliana, and punishing fire. He blots the deathrite and I don't get lands till late. He uses daze on liliana after I'm at 8 from a Geist.

I dropped after that because it was getting late and I had plans. I wish I had bought some more pyroclasm or rough and tumble to test out before the tourney I just didn't want to buy more of the same cards I have. I don't like how pyroclasm kill all of our guys but I think it might be good if played at the right time!! I comes in a turn earlier than plauge and that can be the difference against elves. Plauge hits elves but wire wood stays, also can take down mirran crusader and mom at the same time!!! Where plauge can't. Not to mention Geist/mongoose (without thresh) which can be annoying. Idk these are just some thoughts I have had if anyone has tested pyroclasm I would like to hear your results!! Also if anyone has a different sb strategy/ cards they use to play against the decks to beat, or different lines of play that they would have done/ do to beat curtain cards(deathblade/ UWR delver Geist) it would be great to see your strategy!!!!!! I'm going to scg mn this weekend and and trying to get prepared!!! Thanks for reading and for any tips you post!!!

aluisiocsantos

08-01-2013, 03:35 PM

I used to run Seal of Primordium/Cleasing in my Zoo, it's a nice one to drop vs Show and Tell omni/sneak matchups. I don't currently use it right now on Jund though since I already run Deed/Pulse/Krosan one ofs - plus reb, in that regard agains SnT.

tartashark

08-10-2013, 07:52 AM

I need some suggestions about sylvan library vs sensei's divining top. wich is better in our jund decks?

The library is for sure free in each draw phase and you can draw more cards paying life, but I think Sensei can offer more opportunities during the game, for example:

- with a fetch you can see up to 6 cards, and in a mid range match the mana cost couldn't be a problem....
- you can draw one more card if necesary
- you can save the sensei swapping the sensei with the first card of the deck (also when you are using a pernicious deed after side)
- the sinergies with dark confidant are avaylable immediatly

I have 2 Sensei in my deck and it works well, but what do you think? I'm loosing something relevant? and what about having 1 sensei + 1 library? could be useful....or not?

thank you

Flopnuts72

08-10-2013, 10:42 AM

I don't like top as much as sylvan, because I am tapping out most turns. It does add to the turn 1 plays that we are low on but t2 you are almost always tapping out for goyf/bob/fire/hym. Then t3 liliana, maybe a top activation if you have another 2 drop. But then on t4 bloodbraid, and this is if you have all your mana and not aggressively wastelanding/useing deathrite to ping life. I like to be the aggressor with jund and don't want to durdle around. So tapping for top does not work for me but its a great card and you should test it for your self and play style.

from Cairo

08-10-2013, 10:53 AM

I need some suggestions about sylvan library vs sensei's divining top. wich is better in our jund decks?

I believe Library is quite a bit better. Not having to commit further mana to the card selection is a huge benefit. The deck already runs a heavy curve and has multiple engines in sink mana into - Deathrite, Punishing Fire.

juterz

08-11-2013, 06:42 AM

recent scg open had a jund list go top 4. :) dude was running a full set of BBEs and hymns. mb loam, and only 3 lilis. thoughts? :) i like how his sb was mainly non-reactive cards too.

Lighning Bebbi

08-12-2013, 02:09 PM

I think Top is much better than Library. There are so many reasons...

I'll try to name just a few:
- you don't want to pay 4, 8 or more life, since you play 4 Confidants, too
- Top has protection from removal
- Top has immediate effect, when it enters the battlefield in mid or lategame
- Top finds urgent answers better than Library (fetch, look again.)
- Top protects you from Confidant damage
- Top is better vs Jace's level up
- you have much more important 2-drops
- additional handcard in opponent's turn to play around discard

Most people argue with "Library doesn't cost additional mana later".
I almost never had a problem with that. If your spells in hand are good enough and you don't have enough mana to spin the Top this turn, never mind. It's true that you won't use your Top in the very first turns, but if there is no need to that's fine!
But at least it's good in some match ups to play around daze and look in top after spells resolved.

I played Jund for the last 5 tournaments and I was quite satisfied with my list.
The results: 3-1-0, 7-0-0, 3-0-1, 4-0-1, 4-1-1

Lost 2x against Elfball, drawed with Deathblade, Rug Delver and Maverick.

How do you like the Elfball match up, and what can we do to upgrade this match up?

Here is my list:

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Engineered Plague
2 Nature's Claim

Best Regards!

aluisiocsantos

08-12-2013, 02:42 PM

I dunno, how do you like Kozilek in favor of Thoughtseize? I mean, IoK can discard up to mana cost 3, while the same card can be later destroyed by A.Decay. That said, you can't discard heavies with IoK. What gives?

Lighning Bebbi

08-12-2013, 05:31 PM

The 2-2 splitt is ok, I think, because lifeloss can be very relevant in agressive match ups like canadian.
There are not that many cards with cc4 or greater you MUST hit.
You still have Hymns, Lilianas and one Pulse to prohibit these cards.
Even though there is 1 matchup where I board 2 Inquisitions vs 2 Thoughtseize: Esper/Death Blade.

tartashark

08-13-2013, 04:51 AM

thank you Lighning Bebbi for your answer about top vs library. my list is very similar, I play less discard than you, and I have some different cards in side

here my list

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Liliana of the Veil (with new rules she's great....if possible, more than in the past)

Sideboard
2 Red Elemental Blast (against blu decks)
1 Pyroblast ( ")
2 Duress (against combo, burn, s&t, ...)
1 Hymn to Tourach (")
2 Surgical Extraction (combo, s&t, ...)
2 Pernicious Deed (miracle, aggro, elves, goblins, merkfolks,...)
1 Engineered Explosives (")
1 Grafdigger's Cage (elves, reanimator,..)
1 Ancient Grudge (mud, tezzeret, equipments, ..)
1 Scavenging Ooze (reanimator, burn, aggro, ...)
1 Maelstrom Pulse (agaist cards with mana cost over 3)

I would like to put a Umezawa's Jitte in my side....probably instead of the Hymn to tourach....

crow_mw

08-13-2013, 02:37 PM

People say 'you don't want to pay 4 - 8 life' about library, but as a matter of fact some matchups do not care about your life total. Most significantly all the Show and Tell variants, against which you can easily fire library four times and you're gonna love it. To some degree against control decks you are fine with dropping to single digit life as well. Finally mirror and other grindy matchups are often more about CA than life total, and often times you find yourself in a position where entire game can turn around if you can pay 4 life to get removal and threat in same draw.

The 'no need to pay mana later' is a fine aspect of library, but additional draw is what makes this card huge (and why people don't just play mirri's guile instead). It is great against both storm and s'n't combo, very good against control, often useful against grindy mirror and only bad against decks like Canadian *****, against which you don't have mana to play with top anyway.

jtos84

08-15-2013, 12:01 PM

With library you do not initially want to pay four life to draw cards unless you are already ahead on board, or so far behind you need to get certain cards to catch back up. I remember reading an article Todd Anderson wrote where he explained how library can be good. It is really good against decks that play swords to plowshares. One in the main is good and one in the sideboard can be pretty good as well. I had been using it for b/g deaths shadow which is similar to jund, but I think I finally got tired of playing the same deck and switched to ant. Anyway, I wonder if using the library is better than using a shardless agent. The meta game is starting to reward decks that can create a board presence.

LEH

08-15-2013, 06:35 PM

I'm a huge supporter of Sylvan Library over Sensei's Divining Top. Top demands constantly feeding mana to be of any use whereas Lib is a much stronger "free" effect. Life is a relative resource in MTG and being able to use it to gain you real card advantage when you need it the most is what makes the advantage engine, in Jund, so strong. Mana, on the other hand, is precious in Jund. I hardly ever have mana left over at the end of my turns, between casting things on curve, BBE with Wastelands in the deck and the Punishing Fire combo I likely wouldn't be triggering Top until turn 5+ (or missing out doing something in order to trigger Top any earlier), this is not the case wit Lib which would likely also help fill up my hand with answers or threats by the time Top would really come into effect for me, thus making Top seem inferior to me. In summery, while I agree there are some positives and advantages in running SDT, it doesn't give anything other than virtual card advantage and at a cost of tapping mana to activate, Lib, on the other hand, always provides virtual card advantage, however, also gives you the option to pay life to gain actual card advantage, which, to me, makes it a much stronger card in this deck.

tartashark

08-17-2013, 05:21 AM

thank you very much for your ideas about library and top. And what about have 1 library plus 1 top in our main deck? it could be usefull also agaist pithing needle or similar! :rolleyes:

thank you again for your suggestions

DOM

08-18-2013, 02:41 AM

If your opponent casts Needle on Library/SDT, s/he is doing something wrong and you just got ahead a notch. In most cases, Pithing Needle/Phyrexian Revoker shut Lily, DRS and *sometimes* Wasteland (happened to me once or twice).

Sylvan Library is simply better in this deck due to all the reasons people mentioned above whilst a legit reason to play SDT instead is when you are playing some Pernicious Deeds in your 75.

DLifshitz

08-18-2013, 07:51 AM

If your opponent casts Needle on Library/SDT, s/he is doing something wrong and you just got ahead a notch

Just to be clear. Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker naming SDT does prevent you from using the Top. But Pithing Needle naming Sylvan Library doesn't prevent you from using the Library, because under the current rules/errata, Library has a triggered ability, not an activated one.

tartashark

08-18-2013, 11:17 AM

yes, clear.....I normally use 2 Top and my question was if it could be usefull to use library+top also to avoid problems with pithing needle. If you use only library, you won't have problems with pithing needle.

Good suggestion also about using Top if in the side there are Pernicious Deeds (as in my side)!!! :wink:

thank you

Final Fortune

08-24-2013, 07:27 AM

Basaka

08-27-2013, 05:30 AM

The Jund deck that mad the finals of the most recent SCG had 3 Choke in it's sideboard, presumably to combat Omnitell. Any thoughts?

zulander

08-27-2013, 09:11 AM

The Jund deck that mad the finals of the most recent SCG had 3 Choke in it's sideboard, presumably to combat Omnitell. Any thoughts?

Choke has always been a good green card to combat blue decks. Seems solid against control as well, but with Abrupt Decay I think there are lots of ways out from it.

Neffy

09-03-2013, 03:04 AM

One of the last winning Jund lists on mtgtop8 features 2 Deeds in the SB
Does our deck really support this card (if not playing Top)? I dont like the fact that i have no real answer to tokens, miracle angels especially, but Deed takes out my own DRS, my sylvan and propably also my Bobs and Goyfs.

Have somebody else tried the card with success?

razvan

09-04-2013, 10:53 AM

I have tried Deed, and I didn't like it. It is an excellent answer to tokens, but I found it clunky and such. The problem is that you trade one of your cards (Deed) for theirs (Entreat), but you probably will lose creatures, so you will go to parity on the board, but chances are they are in a better position overall.

I honestly do have a singleton Damnation in the sideboard, but sometimes I feel like EE could be just as good and a bit more focused.

But I do think Jund does need mass removal these days, and more Planeswalkers. I have played 2 Garruk Relentless and 1 Koth of the Hammer when Miracles was all the rage, and having those and more mass removal is an idea. Deed could come into play, but it might be too much mana if you need to activate it for Swarm decks, instead of Entreat.

However the deck seems to have died down a bit lately, so it is not as necessary anymore.

aluisiocsantos

09-04-2013, 12:43 PM

But I do think Jund does need mass removal these days, and more Planeswalkers. I have played 2 Garruk Relentless and 1 Koth of the Hammer when Miracles was all the rage, and having those and more mass removal is an idea. Deed could come into play, but it might be too much mana if you need to activate it for Swarm decks, instead of Entreat.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=145298&d=1378267497 hi!

Also, I gotta post a report sometime this week! Won a 41 player tourney last saturday. I'll elaborate soon!

Aether_lackey

09-04-2013, 10:05 PM

Hey guys!

I'm new here on TS, and have been playing with legacy jund for some months now (evolved from a for-fun list). My starting list ran what I thought to be the consensus at that point:

16 creatures (4 BBE, 0 ooze)
2 - 3 - 4 on Bolt, decay and PF
4 Liliana
4 TS and 3 Hymn
24 lands (4 grove, 4 waste, 8 fetch, 1 forest, 1 swamp, 3 Badlands, 2 Bayou and a singleton Taiga)

After a lot of playtesting I figured the 4th BBE was the card I'd less miss, if any, so I swapped it with a Scavenging Ooze. And I wanted to test Sensei/Library (went for sensei first), and that took a wasteland off my list.

Up to now my impressions are:

Ooze is ok, but I never feel I really need it. Either way, I'm mostly focused on playing/fetching badlands over Bayous for multiple pfire recurssion per turn. I'm probably ditching it.

Sesei was amazing. I know most players are not big fans of this guy, and I have yet to test library, but I can't really say it was bad, so... there you go. Some nice aspects are:
gets around land disruption (:1:)
has value as soon as enters the battlefield, unlike library
should not (but will sometimes, horray) be targeted by removal

So, I'm not saying it's best, but I can assure it works pretty well. I'm aware of the library's build-in card advantage engine, wich top lacks.

My next move will probably be to cut top and add library to see how it goes. Also most likely bringing the 4th wasteland back, since there is no other way (lili's ultimate is somewhat rare and won't always hit what you really want) to deal with troublesome lands.

___________

I've noticed that some players here have tried to cut lightning bolts entirely, sounds wrong to me. I mean, as long as we can start ahead, we'll hardly lose that position later on, and bolt is one of the "few" one drops we have, being an aggro-control deck. Bolting delvers, moms and opposing DRS is what makes this baby shine, not to mention the fact it will deal with an enormous range of slower creatures in the format single-handedly.

Yet, I wouldn't go as far as trimming the Pfire count. Even being slower, they sound to me like one of the big reasons to play jund. A deck that can naturally draw the combo and make good use of it, clearing the path for goyfs and BBEs to steal the game.

___________

As for my sideboard, there has been a lot of change. I started with the 4th hymn in the side. It's no longer there, 4 is just too much IMO. Eplague is most likely coming back, since I realized it deals with too many annoying things beyond elves, goblins and lingering souls (humans on D&T and spirits on bloodghast decks). It hurts not to play maelstrom pulse among the 60, so I still try to fit it among the other 15, but it starts to feel too slow and pointless. Ancient grudge has been so very good to me, I would feel bad to go lower than 2. With 4 MB TS, I feel 3 duress is about enough as backup. REB/PB is cool and all, but I tend to keep only a couple, maybe I should cut that pulse for an extra one (and probably make sure to side BBE's out when they're in, I'm sick and tired of target-less REBs). Jitte is such an all-star it's hard not to play it, I try to use it in grindier matches. I have been testing choke, and can't really understand 3 in the sideboard... I can hardly figure what to side out for the first copy, generally BBE's or hymns and lilis. I did test Obstinate Baloth... never won me a game, even when discarded by opposing lili. Have been using 2 surgical and 2 nihil spellbomb as grave hate. Can't say I'm entirely satisfied, as I was used to 4 LotV and 2 surgical in my goblins sideboard, but I suppose that is as good as it gets (tormod's crypt sounds a bit attractive, since you could play DRS or discard and have it ASAP anyway).

Yeah, I guess that's about it. Be welcome to point out stuff that is wrong, I feel jund is the deck I wanna play whenever possible and the sooner I learn it's tricks, the better :)

Neffy

09-06-2013, 04:40 AM

I remember reading an article Todd Anderson wrote where he explained how library can be good

Do you have a link for this article?

BKclassic

09-06-2013, 02:37 PM

Do you have a link for this article?

This is probably the one, although he is talking about its application in his invitational winning Canadian Threshold deck.
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/24932-Winning-The-SCG-Invitational-In-Atlanta.html

Neffy

09-09-2013, 02:04 AM

This is probably the one, although he is talking about its application in his invitational winning Canadian Threshold deck.
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/standard/24932-Winning-The-SCG-Invitational-In-Atlanta.html

Thank you

Neffy

09-11-2013, 02:11 AM

Looks like a sideboard discussing is due. It seems they vary a great deal - here is mine:

Surgical Extraction 2
Krosan Grip 2
Choke 3
Pyroblast 2
Duress 3
Umezawa's Jitte 1
Engineered Plague 2

I generally construct my SBs against certain situations:
- something that can take out artifacts. having DK helps a lot, but batterskull is a pain, and it is nice to take out Tops too - therefore Krosan Grip (former Ancient grudge that often were countered)
- something for graveyard decks. DRS is really good here, but i feel quicker answers like surgical extraction is necessary - especially against fast storm decks
- something to sweep the board of small creatures. E.Plague is sweet and easy to cast - yesteday i played UWR delver/pyromancer and one time i could name human and take out unflipped delver + pyromancer. The increased use of the latter makes it important for to have sweepers.
- something that helps even more against combo - our weak spot. I always take 3 duress, and am considering a 4th.

The rest is typically stuff i feel would help me in a pickle. Like pyroblasts against a jace. I am thinking of cutting these since they most likely will get countered anyway by ShowNTell decks and storm features little blue cards to use SB spots on them. Choke is a meta call with all the RUG and UWR around (its awesome, yesterday merfolk player taps out to play stuff, i play choke, he goes vial go, then i play BBE and cascade into decay taking out the vial. smoooth!)

Cards i am considering:
+1 Sylvan Library
+1 boom/bust
+1-2 electrickery

I am still losing to combo and also rest in peace, so i would love to hear about your sideboards.

A

Zeppeli

09-11-2013, 03:11 AM

Hello all! I'm new to The source, I just recently got into legacy with Jund, I have been playing the modern version of the deck since early RTR and decided to follow BBE into legacy.

I'm glad that there has been a lot of side board discussion as of recently as it's an area I feel my 75 is not very efficient in. I am having some questions about my list and I would like to hear what other Jund players thoughts are on the matter.

My local meta is pretty small, and has a lot of creature based strategies, I've elected to play 1 Jitte main board, but our local legacy scene is starting to run frequent monthly tournaments which are pulling in 30-40 people. And the amount of non creature based strategies is much higher there. Is Jitte worth having one in the main one in the side? Should I drop it to go up to my 4th Blood Braid Elf?

Now onto my sideboard and my questions there. I'm more so trying to build a sideboard for our larger local tournaments, but it seems like a pretty good sample of the meta as a whole. I can expect Goblins, Elves, and Fish, Belcher, ANT, Omnitell, Dredge, Miracles, Shardless, Doomsday, Team America, Stoneblade Ect....

My current board looks like
Duress x 3
Red Elemental Blast x3
Surgical Extraction x 3
Jitte x 1
Life from the Loam x 1
Engineered Plague x 2
Ancient Grudge x 2

with my main board being a pretty stock Punishing Jund list with the only unusual piece being 3 BBE main, 1 Jitte. But even that's not completely unseen on tournament reports.

How does this board look?
Is Ancient Grudge what I want? Or is Krosan Grip the current General Consensus? Also is it worth bringing in Ancient Grudge/KGrip vs Vial decks? or should we just rely on Abrupt Decay/Pulse?
Is Red Elemental Blast worth it vs ANT? Very little of their actual combo is blue, but we have a lot of dead cards in that much up I feel... should we try and filter some out and use left over mana to stop Brainstorms/Ponders in order to make our disruption stick longer? Or should I just stick to bringing in Surgical and Duress?
Slaughter Games? I've seen some people talk about it, and even seen it in a couple of successful lists. I was wondering what every ones thoughts about it were?

Finally, as I mentioned above I am very new to legacy and looking to not scrub out in our upcoming tournaments, but most of the players I frequently play against are players of "fair decks" I'm pretty familiar in those match ups, Fish Goblins, Stoneblade, Bug, ect ect...

But once I go up against the unfair decks Belcher, ANT, Show and tell variations I feel extremely lost. Mostly to not having seen them played a lot nor playing against them. Would some one mind giving me a rough synopsis of what I want to be doing in these match ups and what I should be siding in and out? How much mulligan is to much? Due to the nature of these decks I understand I can not keep "Fair" hands. And I pretty much have to be a blood hound for Thoughtseize/Hymn. Is it worth it go snap mull to 3 to find a t1 Thoughtseize? How far do you go until you settle?

Thanks for reading my wall, and I appreciate any advice!

razvan

09-11-2013, 01:59 PM

I have always used 1 Ancient Grudge in my sideboard, and no matter what, I have had one in anything that had the gruul colors, in any format, Vintage, Legacy and Modern. That being said, I also used 1 Krosan Grip alongside it. I sometimes wrap it up Golgari Charm, and if there is space, 1 Maelstrom Pulse.

I like the variety each of these 4 cards provides. Ancient Grudge is probably the weakest of the four, but it's very quick, and can sometimes give you a 2 for 1. It's almost as uncounterable as Krosan Grip, except it does not hit enchantments.

aluisiocsantos

09-11-2013, 02:05 PM

As I mentioned before, got a first place in a 41 player tournament on the 31th last month, but just now got time to write about it! (actually wrote on a brazillian forum first, so I wanted to write it here later on).

My list:

Jund

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

2 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach

2 Sylvan Library

4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Grove of Burnwillows
3 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
3 verdant Catacomb
3 Blostained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard

2 Duress
1 REB
1 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Exctraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Choke
2 Engineered Plague
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Life from the Loam
1 Pithing Needle

On to the games!

Round 1 - UR Delver (with Young Pyromancer)

Game 1 - I started out very well, and managed to burn down every token and creatures he played with P.Fire and Burnwillows online. Unfortunately I didn't get any heavy beater such as Tarmogoyf or BBE, but was being slowly able to drain him down with EOT P.Fire and Shaman (with this one gerally getting me life as his burns tore me down pretty badly), however, at a point in the game I had 8 non-basic lands, counting 2 wastelands, and 2 shamans, plus a total of 3 usabale punishing fires, and I decided killing him in his EOT by tapping out and unleashing everything, however in response to it he just plays Price of Progress for an astounding 16 points of damage, killing me. Should I have stayed on my own pace, I'd have owned him,and avoided the POP by self-wastelanding myself, plus Shamans and all. Sigh.

Game 2 - Was completely opposite to G1 in terms that I got all the bombs, which were unnefective by his ever growing army of pyromancer tokens. Another loss. 0-1. This player eventually gets selected to the Top 8.

This round loss meant a lot for me as I decided focusing a lot more and playing on my own pace instead of aggroing all out.

Round 2 - Some kind of rogue mono black with creature cards that come back from grave

Game 1 - My opponent wasn't very bright - He plays a Bad Moon right after I play a Dark Confidant, which almost wins the game alone ha.

Game 2 - He catches me unprepared for some cards I barely rememebr the name and had never seen before, some guys who, whenever they are i nthe grave and their owner gets hit by a creautre, that creature dies, and they come back on top of the library. However he never got able to have anything on board any way, and more turns, less turns, he got beaten up. 1-1

Round 3 - Another mono black deck, but a more formidable foe this time

Game 1 - I can't recall excatly what happened by I have this noted down on my life sheet fro ma turn one Thoughtseize "Dark Ritual, Surgical Extraction maindeck (which scared the hell out of me), dark confidant, a m14 zumbie that discards white and green creatures, IoK and a few lands". He doesnt offer much threat to turn two Tarmogoyf.

Game 2 - I'm hit by 4 Surgical Extractions, and lose Punishing Fire, Tarmogoyf, BBE and Deathrite. Then I got smashed by the 4cmc Phrexian Negator.

Game 3 - I start out real lucky: Both Thoughtseize and Surgical Extraction in my hand, and Surgical Extraction on his: That's my target. I pretty much beat him up after that. 2-1

Round 4 - Merfolk

Game 1 - From my notations it seems I pretty much straighforward win the first game with a beater after taking a few hits and punishing every merfolk on the way.

Game 2 - Multiple Kiras, post-sideboard ruin any chance of me liquidating the fish, and I'm overwhelmed.

Game 3 - I get a Choke in play and he doesn't draw any Kira so I had no trouble dealing with them. 3-1

Round 5 - Mirror match!

I can't remember much about this match and from the notations it was a tedious one from all the 1 life up two down notations I've got here, but I end up winning after losing the second game. 4-1

Round 6 - Douglas - Merfolks again!
By the time this match happens I was very tired, having slept only 3 hours the night before.

Game 1 - I start out on a mulligan for 5, being 2 of them a Bayou and Shaman, which is nearly perfect for the hand that it is - until he Force of Wills Shaman and break my land with Wasteland. From then on it's draw draw draw until I'm dead - by merfolk.
I board on al levil stuff I've got against the kind - Chokes, Plagues and P. Deed!

Game 2 - I burn everything down with P. Fire and beat him down with BOB. Dark Confidant can do as he pleases since later I run Choke when he's all tapped out. Plague seals the game for me.

Game 3 - Was a tough one. He beats me up pretty badly early on, and with me needing Dark Confidant to gain speed, I dance around the 3-5 life point amount and get saved by double Shamans in order to avoid drawing a BBE and suicide accidentally haha. I end up winning! This player also goes to top 8 later on, same as me. 5-1

Aside of the money, the top 2 players would get a spot in the National Legacy tourney in Brazil so theoretically all I had to do is win the semi-finals!

Top 8 - Goblins (?)

Game 1 - My opponent apparently had to leave without notice and didn't drop his name, so I didn't get an opponent and won haha.

Top 4 - Shardless BUG

Game 1 - I start out with a mulligan for 5 cards, from which 2 of them were lands, but I could cast the rest (tarmo, a. decay and something else) . My Tarmogoyf gets Decayed, and the rest discarded in a Hymn to Tourach. On the bright side, apparently my opponent spent his hand all too fast and from two lands he had, only one produced blue mana and then BAM, I draw a wasteland, and ruin his match forever. I draw another Goyf and beat him up, who had a blue-filled hand.

Game 2 - I have a good hand but has an even better one - from turn 2 and onwards, he'd cast a Tarmogoyf per turn, and not even Decay or Liliana could take care of them. I have a P.Deed in my hand, but due to a wrong block I don't have enough lifepoints to eventually take the damage and destroy everything the next turn.

Game 3- I have a very slow start with everything I cast being destroyed or discarded, but I have a very healthy land base, and I get two consecutive BBE draws, one I believe who turned a P. Fire, and the second to a Dark Confidant.. with whom you can do wonders with 4 mana and an extra draw. I had to beat him under his clock of two Ancestral Visions ticking, but was not that hard with 8+ damage per turn.

My final opponent would be a Jund but we agreed to just take the spot on the tourney and be done with it. Afterall it was over 11pm and we were dying already haha.

That's about it. The following day had another legacy tournament with 31 people and I end up 22nd haha, being destroyed by 2 Omnihalls and Manaless Dredge. Seriously, you can't fight SnT with just one discard in your hand!

i hope you enjoy!

fogxanic

09-11-2013, 04:19 PM

Hello
I played first time in tournament today with my jund list. There were 14 players and I went 4-0. G1 vs. RUG Delver 2-0, G2 vs. ANT 2-1, G3 vs. MUD 2-1 and G4 vs. "richman $stax" 2-1. Deck felt very nice but I need to get 2 more lilianas after rotation.

Creature [16]
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
Instant [8]
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
Sorcery [9]
1 Life from the Loam
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek

Enchantment [2]
2 Sylvan Library
Planeswalker [2]
2 Liliana of the Veil
Land [23]
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Polluted Delta

maurobad2k4

09-11-2013, 05:33 PM

As I mentioned before, got a first place in a 41 player tournament on the 31th last month, but just now got time to write about it! (actually wrote on a brazillian forum first, so I wanted to write it here later on).

Hey, nice job ! Unfortunately I couldn`t attend to this one...

About your Sideboard, do you think that Needle and Deed as 1-ofs are worth the slots ??

aluisiocsantos

09-11-2013, 06:12 PM

Hey, nice job ! Unfortunately I couldn`t attend to this one...

About your Sideboard, do you think that Needle and Deed as 1-ofs are worth the slots ??

Thanks Mauro! Right now I think I'd rather have two Deeds, or change something for a Maelstrom Pulse, as I felt some problems when facing some higher cmc stuff (such as the phyrexian thing this time, which I don't think will happen again haha, but could also apply to stuff such as Jace and other planeswalkers). The Needle wasn't really needed at all, even though I placed it here in case I had to battle Elves and other annoying things such as people playing Top - in other hand Deed and Pulse can sort the same kind of stuff so I don't know.. Deed is more versatile anyway!

maurobad2k4

09-11-2013, 07:32 PM

Thanks Mauro! Right now I think I'd rather have two Deeds, or change something for a Maelstrom Pulse, as I felt some problems when facing some higher cmc stuff (such as the phyrexian thing this time, which I don't think will happen again haha, but could also apply to stuff such as Jace and other planeswalkers). The Needle wasn't really needed at all, even though I placed it here in case I had to battle Elves and other annoying things such as people playing Top - in other hand Deed and Pulse can sort the same kind of stuff so I don't know.. Deed is more versatile anyway!

Yeah, that makes sense. Maybe a split of Pulse and Deed would be better as well.

Neffy

09-12-2013, 02:23 AM

zulander

09-12-2013, 04:56 PM

Hey guys, just wanted to share some thoughts on Young Pyromancer both in Jund and in playing against him. When he was spoiled I decided to try and put together a Jund list that could exploit him as much as possible, as you can imagine it wasn't the greatest thing in the world but here's the list:

Creatures: 15
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Bloodbraid Elf

Instants/Sorceries: 18
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Life from the Loam
1 Crop Rotation

Other: 3
2 Liliana of the Void
1 Sylvan Library

Lands: 24
4 Grove
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Forest
10 Fetches
2 Wasteland

The deck just wasn't as great as I had hoped, and really missed the beef of a Goyf. I just felt that this was a bad version of Loam trying to abuse YP, maybe a more dedicated loam deck could take advantage of him - possibly playing gamble.

Anyways... with the amount of Pyromancers being played right (most notably in tempo decks) I've had to cater my main list alongside my updated board:

Creatures: 19
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Bloodbraid Elf

Disruption/Library: 18
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library

Lands: 23
3 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Forest

Board: 15
3 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge

The board looks a little janky, but the overlap amongst cards is quite relevant... I wish I could fit in 1 Forked Bolt and 2 Golgari Charm, but thems the breaks!

Boarding strategy:
Tempo Decks: -3 Hymn, -2 Thoughtseize, +3 Pyroblast, +2 Edict
Blade Decks: -1 Waste, -2 Liliana, -3 Hymn, -1 Thoughtseize, +3 Pyro, +2 K.Grip/Gurdge, +1 Pulse, +1 Garruk
Combo: -4 Bolt, -4 AD, -1 Sylvan, + 3 Pyro, +3 Surgical, +3 Duress/Hymn
Tribal: -4 Thoughtseize, +1 Pulse, +2 Edict, +1 Hymn
Mirror: -4 Thoughtseize, +1 Garruk, +2 Edict, +1 Hymn

To combat the increase of tempo decks I've removed the 4th BBE as it's tough getting to 4 mana, and added in 2 md ooze (he's super against rug). I'm not a fan of playing pulse in the main over 4th AD as well due to tempo decks, but can understand doing so in a jace heavy metagame. The 3rd surgical could be wrong in the board and could possible be a singleton Forked Bolt or 3rd Edict (I love Edict against RUG).

aluisiocsantos

09-13-2013, 10:39 AM

Neat study! Young Pyromancer sur eis a strong card! If you read my report in the begginging of the page, I fought one and lost. In that regard, I think that if we want to be prepared for them, Punishing Fire is even more important, even though I remember you always being favored towards Lightning Bolts. (in that case definately play Lavamancer). Like, even though I lost the first match, I had it completely under control with all the P.Fires, and only really lost because I got greedy and then punished for it. POP is still a thing, and for me a greater danger than Pyromancer (if you have P.Fire).

i could totally see a wreckin ball by combining P.Fire and Pyromancer though! And let's not forget that Xenagus is upon us! I'm willing to trade a few BBE for him. Maybe something like a 2-2!

razvan

09-13-2013, 11:07 AM

Ok, first, I love being the spelling police, because I am an immigrant and can barely speak English :P The correct spelling is Xenagos... but I only say it because I browsed through 4 pages of Google and going "wtf" with Xenagus before thinking of going through the spoilers... I r dumb.

Xenagos is basically a slightly different Koth of the Hammer, which I have used, so it cannot be that terrible in the first place. Sadly, like Koth, he only has one relevant ability, but in this case, we have to consider the difference between having a 4/4 haste each turn, or accumulating 2/2 haste creatures.

After 3 turns, Xenagos does as much damage as Koth, and obviously will do more damage on turn 4. Not only that, the damage is split up between multiple creatures, so a single Goyf will not be the end of it.

The fact that the creatures linger on the opponents turn means they are vulnerable to sorcery speed removal, which Koth's mountain generally is not. However, this also means that Xenagos can defend himself if need be (basically be a Garruk with less abilities), which is a big plus.

So in the end, I think Xenagos is slightly better than Koth, but worse than Garruk Relentless. Eh.

Now, as for Young Pyromancer, that's a toughie. The creature clearly is very good, and can single-handedly win games, especially if we put it in the Punishing Fire version. Zulander, I don't think your list is bad at all, but maybe cut the YP to 2, remove the Crop Rotation and slam in 3 Goyfs. Tarmogoyf is still the best creature in most situations.

As I have said, Jund is very customize-able. I don't really know if YP is better than a Goyf, since it is very fragile, and I do not know what match-ups it becomes relevant against, but it can definitely be tried.

Admiral_Arzar

09-13-2013, 11:16 AM

I have top-4'd the last four local events (16-24 players on average) with this list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
3 Hymn to Tourach

3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
3 Duress
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Golgari Charm
2 Krosan Grip
1 Bloodbraid Elf

After a few revisions, I ended up with 24 lands out of 60 cards. With both 23 lands (60 cards) and 24 lands (61 cards) I was mulling for land far too often and losing to manscrew. This build seems like the correct land count as I am mulling far less often. I would like to work in Life from the Loam (sideboard) and/or Sylvan Library (maindeck) but the list is incredibly tight and making cuts is very difficult. I play a huge removal suite because my meta is entirely tempo and aggro/midrange decks right now (with the occasional control deck). Golgari Charm is insane against a ton of matchups, I highly recommend it. I am considering cutting at least 1, maybe more of the Surgicals for Rakdos Charm.

zulander

09-13-2013, 11:50 AM

Xenagos is basically a slightly different Koth of the Hammer, which I have used, so it cannot be that terrible in the first is a big plus.

So in the end, I think Xenagos is slightly better than Koth, but worse than Garruk Relentless. Eh.

Now, as for Young Pyromancer, that's a toughie. The creature clearly is very good, and can single-handedly win games, especially if we put it in the Punishing Fire version. Zulander, I don't think your list is bad at all, but maybe cut the YP to 2, remove the Crop Rotation and slam in 3 Goyfs. Tarmogoyf is still the best creature in most situations.

As I have said, Jund is very customize-able. I don't really know if YP is better than a Goyf, since it is very fragile, and I do not know what match-ups it becomes relevant against, but it can definitely be tried.

Yeah, I was never excited about him. I'm only in favor of Garruk Relentless in the board because his casting cost is the easiest, he can kill a SFM, and has the ability to get you Goyfs/BBE in matchups you want them most. None of the other PW's can do that. The other one I'd love is 2GGG (Garruk). He's amazing but the cc is extremely prohibitive. Why can't we have Elspeth :(

Although I do want to jam a few of these bad boys into my board against RUG: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=145702&d=1379044853

aluisiocsantos

09-13-2013, 12:25 PM

Haha sorry about the mispelling!

I dunno, I think BBE benefits us more imediately, while Xenagos will do more on the long run. He can help cast stuff we buy with BOB, or spam tokens, which can be annoying when you are at a situation like one in which the only thing you can do each turn is EOT P.Fire. P.Fire plus cumulative hasty tokens. Either case I'm hoping to try him out with proxies this weekend. But then there's Garruk, who i had forgotten about haha, but I like Xenagos confortably sits in the same cmc as BBE and sorta do similar effects (but better on the long run?) Plus, it's way harder to get removed?

zulander

09-13-2013, 12:53 PM

aluisiocsantos

09-13-2013, 02:39 PM

True dat ;), I should try him out, it would be a first timer!

Neffy

09-16-2013, 08:27 AM

Just wanted to share experience.

I am testing Fire Covenant in my SB to have a nasty answer to a board of Bob, YPM, Snap, SFM, tokens, gobbos, elves, souls, goyf (-wars), and practically all other creatures that can hinder my attack.

I have tested it against Goblins, UGR pyro and UR pyro and it seems quite good!
I am planning on taking it to Bazaar of Moxen in November as I recon there will be quite a lot of decks with above mentioned creatures.

zulander

09-16-2013, 03:24 PM

Admiral_Arzar

09-17-2013, 11:43 AM

I've always wanted to test Fire Covenant but never gave it a second look because of bobs/thoughtseize/libraries, but I guess it could be boarded in matchups where you board thoughtseize out.

I would rather run Golgari Charm.

zulander

09-17-2013, 03:28 PM

I would rather run Golgari Charm.

Being able to kill delver, and opposing creatures while keeping your bobs alive is what makes this more attractive.

aluisiocsantos

09-17-2013, 03:55 PM

It sounds like a good tech, but that's also the role for Punishing Fire!

Fuzzy

09-17-2013, 11:54 PM

I don't know if anyone here care about Modern, but Chandra Pyromaster was rocking that format last weekend.

So, hot or not?

DragoFireheart

09-18-2013, 06:51 PM

I dunno about her, but probably not. Can't cascade into her and she's fighting BBE for that 4 CMC slot.

Now not to sound rude or condescending, but is the skill level of Jund relatively low (not Burn low) compared to the rest of the DTB? This matters btw as sometimes I feel the need to take non-mentally taxing deck to a tournament.

zulander

09-18-2013, 09:00 PM

I dunno about her, but probably not. Can't cascade into her and she's fighting BBE for that 4 CMC slot.

Now not to sound rude or condescending, but it's the skill level of Jund relatively low (not Burn low) compared to the rest of the DTB? This matters btw as sometimes I feel the need to take non-mentally taxing deck to a tournament.

It depends on the list. Usually it's fairly straight forward, but lists that play PFires can be trickier. Out of 10 I'd say the more stock lists are ~4/10 difficulty, but are usually ~7-8/10 fun and competitive. I don't find it as boring as RUG and control decks.

from Cairo

09-18-2013, 09:29 PM

I dunno about her, but probably not. Can't cascade into her and she's fighting BBE for that 4 CMC slot.

I agree. I think her success in Modern is more a product of the stronger form of card advantage (Bloodbraid Elf) being banned.

Now not to sound rude or condescending, but it's the skill level of Jund relatively low (not Burn low) compared to the rest of the DTB? This matters btw as sometimes I feel the need to take non-mentally taxing deck to a tournament.

I wouldn't argue that Jund is one of the easier to pilot DTBs. The deck plays out proactively, usually with a natural curve. Even with that considered though, I still think there is room to play the deck better with practice and knowledge of the field.

I will agree with Zulander, compared to other Legacy strategies - 1 being totally linear strategy and 10 being the most reactive / requiring the most format knowledge - Jund probably does fall around a 4.

DragoFireheart

09-18-2013, 10:54 PM

Thanks for the input. Sometimes I'll hear people bemoan how X deck is simple and boring. While this can be true, a simple deck is also less likely to have mistakes made in a long tournament. There are times when simple is just better.

DragoFireheart

09-19-2013, 09:34 AM

Admiral_Arzar

09-19-2013, 10:39 AM

For Jund players:

I'm looking at the core-lists for Shardless BUG and Jund and they look very similar (Goyf, Decay, DRS, etc). Why would I play one deck over the other (pros and cons of each)? BUG seems more explosive, but Jund looks to have a superior later-game plan ala Punishing Fire. I'm interested in both but I don't have any of the duals for making Jund colors while I already have Trops and Seas.

It's a metagame thing. Punishing Jund crushes tempo decks, W aggro decks, tribal, and Shardless BUG itself with Punishing Fire and oodles of removal. However, it can have issues against combo decks and hard control with graveyard hate (like RIP Miracles). Shardless BUG is better against combo because blue, and is also better at overwhelming control with card advantage due to Jace and Ancestral Visions. My meta is currently saturated with tempo, Death and Taxes, and Shardless BUG, so Jund crushes everything. If more combo and hard control started showing up I would consider switching to Shardless.

On the intellectual level, Jund is a relatively simple deck with some more intricate lines of play sprinkled in. You generally have a pretty established mana-curve, but run into a lot of choices regarding what to play in what order. There are also specific rules of thumb that you will learn (i.e. you generally shouldn't play Bloodbraid into an empty board in case you cascade into removal/Liliana). If you know how to use both Deathrite Shaman and Punishing Fire effectively, the deck won't be difficult at all. It is definitely fun to play though. Nothing is more entertaining than cascading into DEEZ NUTZ with BBE and watching your opponent flip the table calmly acknowledge how good at magic you are.

aluisiocsantos

09-19-2013, 11:11 AM

I was wondering what's considered a difficult deck to pilot, and why?

I usually burn my brains with Jund because I have to interact every single moment.. EOT, opponents EOT, Upkeep, beginning of Upkeep, response with DRS and etc. It seems a lot more complex than, say, Zoo, which i played before which is basically just a matter of putting stuff on the table and try going for a swift kill. I suppose you consider a difficult deck is any with a Brainstorm?

razvan

09-19-2013, 11:12 AM

Chandra, Pyromaster
I think it’s important when evaluating a card to ask yourself two questions:

1) What do I need her for? What match-ups does it improve/hurt?
2) What will she replace?

#2 is easy: you can only replace a 4 drop, so either BBE or Garruk from the sideboard.

#1 is a bit more complicated. What do we fear, what do we need help against? The 3 worst decks for us right now are Burn, Sneak and Show, Rock-type decks.

It doesn’t help with burn. No 4-drop that doesn’t gain a lot of life ever will. It does help with other Rock type decks somewhat. You can kill Dark Confidants, you can win Goyf wars, or you can simply sneak by a blocker, which ALSO helps vs. Griselbrand sometimes. Don’t discount this outlier case because Zeus only knows I lost a game if it wasn’t for the stupid lifelink on defense.

The 0 ability is interesting, but keep in mind that you are probably only likely to use it on the NEXT turn, unless you draw her late-game. You have little library manipulation, so it’s even more of a random thing than BBE, which at least guarantees that you will be able to cast a spell that turn.

Her ultimate is fairly interesting, but if she doesn’t get Lightning Bolt, I don’t know if it’s worth it. I guess you could Maelstrom Pulse 3 times which is pretty hilarious. Unlike Liliana and Garruk, you are very unlikely to take advantage of all abilities.

So I would place her in a category of “shouldn’t replace BBE, but might be able to replace Garruk”. They fill similar roles, but double red is quite a problem. You have double black, and are often quite heavily invested in green.

Now not to sound rude or condescending, but is the skill level of Jund relatively low (not Burn low) compared to the rest of the DTB? This matters btw as sometimes I feel the need to take non-mentally taxing deck to a tournament.
This is a question that people have been debating since 1993 for magic, and since the dawn of time for other games. The answer is no. But that is only my opinion.

You are playing a control deck, and you sometimes can go aggro-control if the stars align. You have no way to deal with their top-decks and library manipulation, and you are heavy in removal when a lot of decks do not care about it. You will face a lot of tough matchups where you are only a slight favorite, and you will face really bad matchups.

Your deck is powerful and consistent, but there are many ways to lose. Especially against the tougher matchups, every damage counts.

This isn’t storm, but it’s pretty much on par with most other decks in the format. It’s far more difficult than burn, show and tell, dredge, reanimator, and the like.

DragoFireheart

09-19-2013, 11:16 AM

I suppose you consider a difficult deck is any with a Brainstorm?

I was going to say Elves, Goblins, DnT, ANT, and TES are more complex.

Also, just because a deck has Brainstorm doesn't make it complex per say. For something Shardless BUG, Brainstorm usage in that deck seems less complex than say Miracle Control. With the former, you use it to set up cascades and typically brainstorm usage. For Miracles, you use it to setup Miracles, Counterbalances, and typical brainstorm uses.

sdematt

09-19-2013, 11:45 AM

DragoFireheart

09-19-2013, 11:48 AM

This doesn't mean it's a bad deck by any stretch, I just think because Shardless has blue, you have a greater chance against an open field, overall.

-Matt

Thank you and the rest of you for your responses. I think I'll focus on Shardless BUG.

KrzyMoose

09-19-2013, 03:37 PM

Hey all, I'm getting back into the game after some time off, and I've been playing Jund at the last couple of local tournaments. I played one tournament with Punishing Fire and one without (in addition to playtesting), and I think I liked the non-PF version better. (3 PF, 2 Bolt, 3 Decay vs 4 Bolt, 4 Decay). It mainly came down to the Delver matchup - the one in which you'd think you'd want them. I found that between the high number of non-basics and the high cost of PF, you often find yourself in a dangerous situation before you can get the engine going; it often just reads 1R - 2 dmg.

Here's where I'm at:

23 Land - 10 fetches, 5 duals, 5 basics, 3 Wasteland

16 Creatures - 4 DRS, 4 Bob, 4 Tarmogoyf, 3 BBE, 1 Thrun

21 Spells - 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Hymn, 4 Bolt, 4 Decay, 3 Liliana, 2 Sylvan Library

Pretty standard. I'm running Thrun since I wanted an unkillable, uncounterable threat who could hold a Jitte (from the SB) and who's bigger than Nimble Mongoose. I do want to go up to 24 land, but I'm fairly happy, otherwise. Though, I would like to drop the fetchland count to 8, but I'm not really sure with what to replace them. I really hate having more non-basics than necessary, but, then again, I do enjoy being able to cast all my spells...

My real question is on the SB, though, since I need to relearn the format again. Here's what I ran the last week:

Happy with:
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 anti-GY (1 Relic, 1 Crypt, 1 Surgical, 1 Leyline)
SB: 1 Thrun
SB: 1 Batterskull
Sort of whatever:
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives

The matchups I feel like I need the most help against are Delver and the various Blue combo decks. Against Delver, Nimble Mongoose and Submerge are the problem cards, and I haven't found a good way to deal with them, yet. I put in EE mainly to kill Mongooses, since I figured 3 mana spread over 2 turns would be easier than 3 mana all at once (for something like Perish, or Crime//Punishment). How do you guys fight them?

Against the Blue combo decks, I ran into Leyline of Sanctity, which meant that my Duress plan wasn't so good. What do you guys do there?

As an aside, since I'm not running PF, Red is giving me Bolt and BBE. I've been thinking about replacing it with White, which gives me Swords - a huge edge in the Tarmogoyf mirrors. It could also let me cut the four drops, and run something like 2 Stoneforge, 2 equipment, or some combination of Loxodon Smiter/Knight of the Reliquary. Thoughts?

Thanks!

zulander

09-19-2013, 04:29 PM

23 Land - 10 fetches, 5 duals, 5 basics, 3 Wasteland

16 Creatures - 4 DRS, 4 Bob, 4 Tarmogoyf, 3 BBE, 1 Thrun

21 Spells - 4 Thoughtseize, 4 Hymn, 4 Bolt, 4 Decay, 3 Liliana, 2 Sylvan Library

Happy with:
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4 anti-GY (1 Relic, 1 Crypt, 1 Surgical, 1 Leyline)
SB: 1 Thrun
SB: 1 Batterskull
Sort of whatever:
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives

The matchups I feel like I need the most help against are Delver and the various Blue combo decks. Against Delver, Nimble Mongoose and Submerge are the problem cards, and I haven't found a good way to deal with them, yet. I put in EE mainly to kill Mongooses, since I figured 3 mana spread over 2 turns would be easier than 3 mana all at once (for something like Perish, or Crime//Punishment). How do you guys fight them?

Against the Blue combo decks, I ran into Leyline of Sanctity, which meant that my Duress plan wasn't so good. What do you guys do there?

As an aside, since I'm not running PF, Red is giving me Bolt and BBE. I've been thinking about replacing it with White, which gives me Swords - a huge edge in the Tarmogoyf mirrors. It could also let me cut the four drops, and run something like 2 Stoneforge, 2 equipment, or some combination of Loxodon Smiter/Knight of the Reliquary. Thoughts?

Thanks!

Here's my recommendations:
Choke -> Pyroblast (3 max)
Leyline/Relic/Crypt -> Surgical (3 max)

I'm confused as to why you are playing batterskull in the board, as well as EE. Turn EE into Pulse so you can hit Jace and YPyro tokens.dec
3 Pyroblast
3 Surgical
2 Duress
1 Jitte
1 Thrun
1 Grudge
1 Pulse

This gives you 3 slots to play around with, personally I prefer K. Grip and Diabolic Tutors, you may prefer other cards like Scavenging Ooze, a 4th BBE, etc.

Admiral_Arzar

09-19-2013, 04:33 PM

I find Delver to be quite favorable. However, I run 24 lands (including 4 basics) and my removal suite is 4 Bolt, 4 Decay, 3 PF. Mongoose is annoying, but you can shrink it with DRS/Ooze, kill it with Lili, or just block with Goyf or BBE. PF is amazing because it kills Delver and wins Goyf wars, but the real key in this matchup is assembling a stable manabase, which is why I run so many basic lands. Postboard you can kill an un-threshed Goose with cards like Golgari Charm also.

EDIT: Krosan Grip and/or Golgari Charm kill Leyline of Sanctity. However, Blue combo with Leyline is not a good matchup for this deck at all.

dave8

09-19-2013, 05:27 PM

If you want to beat an Omnitell deck with Jund I highly recommend buying a couple of Chains of Mephistopheles. It just crushes them.

Neffy

09-20-2013, 01:22 AM

Here's my recommendations:
Choke -> Pyroblast (3 max)
Leyline/Relic/Crypt -> Surgical (3 max)

IMO pyroblasts are not very necessary, yet almost every jund list runs them - and Im confused as to why.
I have been boarding them in against decks with Jace mainly, maybe as extra removal against Delver decks, but these matches are already in our favor and generally we have a lot of answers anyway.

When it comes down to matches where I am really in trouble; storm, reanimator, show and tell and other combo decks they seem good but:
1. never seem to draw them
2. should i mulligan to have one in starting hand?
3. show and tell almost always have counters/misdirection to anticounter
4. storm has mostly only cantrips, and can manage around losing one of these.

WHen do you use them and why?
FOr combo decks i am relying on my discard and DRS. Im going to try out 4x surgical extraction (rather than 2-3) since they are awesome against renanimator, and storm as well (combined with disruption).
Together with DRS these make a good Graveyardhate package too.

EDIT: regarding choke; I have had only great experiences with it against UR delver, UGR delver, merfolk, UWR delver, etc. They are awesome and quite nice to cascade into.

aluisiocsantos

09-20-2013, 09:59 AM

It's tricky! I remember REB being much more effective as a Zoo player due to lack of options, but as Jund, sometimes I feel that discarding is much more effective. In other hand, vs Jace/Merfolks it's another option as removal, though I've also been pondering what kind of difference it really makes if you run Punishing Fire- so maybe the solution is placing more discards instead of REBS

In other hand other discard options we'd have are: more Duresses, IoK, Cabal Therapy? Except for Cabal Therapy the other ones can't discard Jace, or Duress, so those would only improve the Combo MU, but I dunno about the rest.

Admiral_Arzar

09-20-2013, 11:27 AM

Alright, after being absolutely crushed by Sylvan Library in the mirror (I wasn't running it), I need to be running it. What should I cut from this list for 2 Library? My meta is generally full of tempo/aggro/midrange decks, we haven't seen much combo lately.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach

1 Mountain
1 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Badlands
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills

maurobad2k4

09-20-2013, 11:40 AM

aluisiocsantos

09-20-2013, 01:42 PM

Also, on a personal taste, -1 Lightning Bolt and +1 Liliana. You want to be surrounded by kittens

sdematt

09-20-2013, 01:52 PM

If you want to beat an Omnitell deck with Jund I highly recommend buying a couple of Chains of Mephistopheles. It just crushes them.

Typing on my phone bear with me. This doesnt strictly beat them, depending on when it lands. If prior to major setup it can be bqck reaking, but after some setup or off the show and tell omni can play through it.

defector

09-23-2013, 01:26 AM

If you're really concerned about the SnT mu you can put 4 Angel of Despair in the board. The deck has some bad match ups and Leyline of Sanctity is terrible for us. It doesn't stop them casting sneak attack or a dream halls, but it stops early blow outs. I've decided to let this match up go. I don't think its worth the level of commitment this archetype would have to do to make it winnable. You beat all the aggro decks(except burn) you beat all the other BG decks, you beat the Blue based control decks and you lose to the combo decks. Thems the breaks:) My current sb looks like:

Sideboard 15
Red Elemental Blast 3
Choke 3
Krosan Grip 3
Engineered Plague 3
Duress 2
Chains of Mephistopheles 1

I'm working in Pun Jund now, but I want to try non Pun soon as I kind of hate the whole P Fire engine, it seems win more to me right now. Against the SnT Decks I take out 4 AD for sure, not sure exxactly what else and bring in 3 reb, 3 grip and 2 duress and 1 chains. I should probably bring the chokes in too:) And I lose, ces la vie. The deck can hang with most of the other combo decks except reani and dredge. Plague for elves along with all the removal isn't bad and the discard can get you there vs storm. So you only really lose hard to Burn, SnT, Reanimator and Dredge.
That's not that bad. Anyway, just my .02.
cheers
defector

aluisiocsantos

09-23-2013, 09:31 AM

Sideboard 15
Red Elemental Blast 3
Choke 3
Krosan Grip 3
Engineered Plague 3
Duress 2
Chains of Mephistopheles 1

No graveyard-hate at all? I'd throw in at least a pair of Nihil Spellbombs, or Surgical Extractions! (preferrably the latter)

--

I've been meaning to test Xenagos if I can get a hold of a couple this weekend. This would be my list with it:

Jund

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse

2 Sylvan Library

4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Xenagos, the Reveler

4 Grove of Burnwillows
3 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Wasteland
3 verdant Catacomb
3 Blostained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard

2 Duress
1 REB
1 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Exctraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Choke
2 Engineered Plague
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse

I removed one BBE and took away 2 bolts in order to fit 4 cards with 4 cmc. not sure the trade is fair, but many deck list doesnt even feature Bolts, and instead have 4 BBEs, so I'm having a split between BBE and Xenagos since they have the same cost. I believe he can be a true beater when all I can do in a late game is Punishing Fire in the EOT. BBE is a great accelerator when it comes into play, but i think Xenagos will do more damage on the long run. Also, leave my lands untapped, which can be good.

Opinions??

zulander

09-23-2013, 04:12 PM

I like Xenagos, but I don't like him more than 3rd BBE, or more than Bolt. I like him a lot more than the 4th Liliana though. I'm also not sure I like him more than Garruk Relentless and Chandra.

Neffy

09-25-2013, 10:22 AM

Regarding the SB discussions; i've tried to analyze the last 12 or so SBs posted here and the best from mtgtop8.com (total 17) as can be seen on the image i statistically put it up for us to see what the most popular SB options are. Take a look:

http://www.imagesup.net/di-1513801183036.png

Conclusions:
It shows that every single of the decks in this survey use duress and mostly as a 2-of.
surgical is popular in 12 of 17 decks used as 2 and 3 ofs.
REB and Pyroblast are heavily featured also (why REBs are so popular compared to pyroblast+deathrite interaction, i have no clue)
deed and choke or also quite popular. As are is artifact hate like Grip and Grudge.

Personally I am letting my MB taking care of most aggro decks, as others have suggested earlier, and using the SB mainly against the harder MUs.
therefore i am at the moment looking at:

4 surgical (or 3 surgical/1 extirpate split as i dont have 4 surg. - brutally used these against dredge yesterday)
3 pyroblast (considering 4?)
2 choke
2 duress (considering 3?)
1 chains of mephistopheles (wanting to take advantage of us never really drawing cards (apart from Sylvan))
with 3 open spots (as krosans might not be necessary. My nominees are deed for Angel tokens, jitte for life, loam, pulse for angel tokens or griselbrand, etc.

I love SB discussion, so please do comment or critisize!

- A

Cryoclasm

09-27-2013, 04:12 AM

aluisiocsantos

09-27-2013, 10:07 AM

I like Xenagos, but I don't like him more than 3rd BBE, or more than Bolt. I like him a lot more than the 4th Liliana though. I'm also not sure I like him more than Garruk Relentless and Chandra.
Do you mean Chandra Pyromaster? She's been doing cool things in Modern, but I think she's more useful there due to the lack of Punishing Fire more than anything! I like garruk though!

4 surgical (or 3 surgical/1 extirpate split as i dont have 4 surg. - brutally used these against dredge yesterday)
3 pyroblast (considering 4?)
2 choke
2 duress (considering 3?)
1 chains of mephistopheles (wanting to take advantage of us never really drawing cards (apart from Sylvan))
with 3 open spots (as krosans might not be necessary. My nominees are deed for Angel tokens, jitte for life, loam, pulse for angel tokens or griselbrand, etc.

I love SB discussion, so please do comment or critisize!

- A
I like Krosan for matchups like Miracles, though honestly in the meta I play they have kinda disappeared, but still very useful versus the Omnitell matchup as you can break their combo at any time. I think it's a good weapon still. Maelstrom is a good one, I currently use two of them in my deck, one MD and one SB. Same for Deed, which is great for the BGx matchups, RUG, and etc. Jund can do just fine without anything in play.

Hello guys!

Can anyone give me strategy advice about BUG matchups:

Shardless BUG just ruins me in its card advantage, he can recover in midgame, thanks to Ancestral Visions.
They can defend there Liliana and she is really a bane to us.

Team America presses with early delvers, hymns, tarmos and when I am drained out of cards, drops Tombstalker where I only have 1 distinct answer, granted that all other creatures are dead.
After sideboard they add sinkholes and disfigures and just ruin my manabase and hand efficiently killing small creatures.

Did you ever win against good TA pilots? What did you do?
I have been lucky in BUG matchups so I dunno! Maybe it's a matter of who draws best in those cases, but overall I believe Jund has a slightly better chance in it. I think boarding extra removals is key in there, and I generally board out all discards too. Extra Pulse/Deeds for example can turn tables and take you out of a field disadvantage. If you really like discards though, only keep Hymn just because it's so umpredictable and does some neat damage.

As for Extirpate x Surgical will go according to how safe you want to play. I REALLY like following Surgical after a well placed Thoughtseize on the first turn, but Extirpate is really sick in the mirror or versus something like Reanimator/Manaless Dredge/decks with Snapcaster.

OH yeah, I dunno how's your maindeck, but Wasteland (some people dont like them in Jund) is a must! It can single-handedly win a match

from Cairo

09-27-2013, 02:56 PM

Hello guys!

Can anyone give me strategy advice about BUG matchups:

Shardless BUG just ruins me in its card advantage, he can recover in midgame, thanks to Ancestral Visions.
They can defend there Liliana and she is really a bane to us.

Team America presses with early delvers, hymns, tarmos and when I am drained out of cards, drops Tombstalker where I only have 1 distinct answer, granted that all other creatures are dead.
After sideboard they add sinkholes and disfigures and just ruin my manabase and hand efficiently killing small creatures.

Did you ever win against good TA pilots? What did you do?

I have not seen traditional (Tombstalker) Team America around since piloting Jund.

I have tested and played against Shardless BUG though with the deck. In my experience, Ancestral Visions, their Tarmogoyfs, and their Planeswalkers are the biggest threats that they pose. Ancestral Visions is definitely a great pick off of a turn 1 Thoughtseize - if on the play, against a known Shardless opp, I would prioritize TS over DRS for this potential. Their Tarmogofys can be answered with our Abrupt Decays and situationally with Punishing Fire and Liliana if we're in a standoff. When in Tarmogoyf stand-offs the issue can be their Baleful Strixes. I would assess that Jund has to be the aggressor in the match up - though perhaps inevitability could fall into our favor in the very late game with more land and PFires engine online, I don't think (game 1) it's safe to assume that the game will get to that point given the Planeswalker 'soft locks' that can occur. Ideally, game 1 one wants to strip the first Ancestral Visions or find the opponent to not have one. Get down a Tarmogoyf, ideally with another creature on board to pad a Liliana 'edict' and clear it's path for a lethal 20. To kill blockers utilize Punishing Fires to address their Strixes, Agents and DRSs, saving Abrupt Decay/Pulse for Tarmogoyf. If given the opportunity to utilize Wasteland or a midgame piece of discard - strongly err on the side of attacking their Jace the Mind Sculptor potential - IE TS/Hymn pull Jace on Turn 3 or Wasteland an Underground Sea on turn 3 again to keep them off hitting :2::u::u:.

Post board, I personally like to cut our discard, as the game becomes an attrition war and with more SB removal and REB we have more reactive ways to address the threats the opponents pose rather than investing mana into depriving them things to cast. In this sense we get to take advantage of game tempo. I would bring in Red Elemental Blasts to address AV and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. If one plays 1-2 Ancient Grudge, they are very strong in this match attacking Baleful Strix's 2 for 1 with a 1 for 1/2, keeping CA equal - Grudge also hitting Shardless Agent and maybe an opposing Jitte can be great too. I SB my 4th Abrupt Decay and it comes in for any match up that is decided by who's Tarmogoyf sticks around. This is one of those matches. Similarly if one plays Scavenging Ooze, this is a good match for it to come in as well, given all the removal on both sides is burn/'Destroy' plenty of guys end up in the GY to eat, this also gives one an additional means to control opponent's DRSs and Tarmogoyfs. If one plays Jitte in their SB this is a great card to bring in as well since, so many of their creatures fall to one attack's worth of charge counters - it also serves as another means to break Goyf stalemates.

My Jund SB is as follows for context:

3 Surgical Extraction
3 Duress
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Nature's Claim
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Abrupt Decay

I do:
-3 Hymn
-3 Thoughtseize

I'd chop the 4th Hymn over the 3rd TS if playing 4x Hymn main.

for

+2 REB
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
+1 Scavenging Ooze
+1 Ancient Grudge
+1 Abrupt Decay

Hope some of this is helpful.

Kl'rt

09-28-2013, 11:44 PM

Hello guys!

Can anyone give me strategy advice about BUG matchups:

Shardless BUG just ruins me in its card advantage, he can recover in midgame, thanks to Ancestral Visions.
They can defend there Liliana and she is really a bane to us.

Maybe you've just been very unlucky with this match. You should have even more card advantage than Shardless BUG. Yes, they have Baleful Strix, Shardless Agent, Hymn, Ancestral Vision, Liliana and Jace. You have Dark Confidant, Bloodbraid Elf, Hymn, Punishing Fire, more Lilianas and Sylvan Library.

If you can stick a Bob and he survives a few turns, it's very hard for them to come back. By the time their Ancestral comes off suspend, they're usually too far behind to do anything about your board presence with all the cards they just drew.

Punishing Fire just wrecks them. Kills every one of their creatures except goyf, and allows you to win goyf wars. Punishing Fire is just crazy card advantage too.

Experienced Shardless players board out their Jaces when they play against Jund because they feel Jace is ineffective in this match, so their Jace shouldn't be an issue.

kingtk3

10-02-2013, 10:50 AM

aluisiocsantos

10-02-2013, 12:44 PM

Other than combo, probably is Rest in Peace and Humility perhaps? Even though RiP is mostly solvable, but annoying nonetheless. Having Punishing Fire removed through Surgical Extraction is very annoying too. But without wanting to be over-confident, I think combos are the only real threat for Jund.

zulander

10-02-2013, 06:10 PM

Jace. I freaking hate Jace. No other card once active is as annoying to deal with, omfg.

from Cairo

10-02-2013, 07:56 PM

Jace. I freaking hate Jace. No other card once active is as annoying to deal with, omfg.

Between Sylvan Library, Punishing Fire, and Bloodbraid Elf we're better set up to answer Jace than most other decks, imo. This decks' cards stand alone value makes the Fateseal ability pretty weak too, IE leaving anything other than land (maybe Abrupt Decay) on top is probably going to be a must answer card.

dunk

10-02-2013, 08:09 PM

Basically, what hurts Jund the most?

Ancestral Vision
Entreat the Angels
Show and Tell / Sneak Attack / Dream Halls
not hitting lands despite running 23/24

Vlad Teppes

10-03-2013, 12:15 AM

What are in your opinion the worst strategy which Jund can face?
I don't mean the actual decks (which should be combo, burn and Junk as I read in the OP), but the cards or sideboard plans that other decks could try against Jund.

Basically, what hurts Jund the most?

I would risk saying show and tell, if they land one fattie, it's GG sice we can only answer them with Lilliana, we can try to keep them off SnT with by wasting their sol lands and toughtseize their key spells, but in my playtesting, they just destroy us.

some combo like dredge and storm can kill us if they are lucky and draw a good hand ( or a hand good enough to avoid our early disruption), but in general they are pretty even

A lucky burn player can use PoP to deal a lot of damage to us and close most games with a quick volley of bolts followed by a fireblast and the only thing that hurts them is our discards.

I think Jund can put up a fight no matter what the matchup is, as it can take many angles of attack.

well, that's my oppinion, I'm kinda new with the deck

Neffy

10-04-2013, 11:07 AM

Ancestral Vision
Entreat the Angels
Show and Tell / Sneak Attack / Dream Halls
not hitting lands despite running 23/24

Agreed. Entreat is IMO the single most annoying and unfair card. I hate it and keep losing to stupid gals with wings

kingtk3

10-04-2013, 02:24 PM

Vlad Teppes

10-04-2013, 04:46 PM

Thanks for your feedback. I know that it's not a common matchup, but how do Jund fares against decks like nic-fit?
It plays many mid and late game bombs that hardly can be removed by bolts or decay.

One of the strenght of this deck seems, at least to me, punishing fire as recursive removal: right now there are many creature decks which get wrecked by punishing grow. Ironically, Jund itself is one of them as only goyf can survive it.
How do you fight against this combo?

Jund is pretty even with nic fit, we often win goyf wars, and we play lot's of card advantage in slivan library and discards, but nic fit can play that game as well, and they have more removal, that match is decided by either luck (who's on the play? who got the best hand and the best draws) and pilot experience, but I gonna risk and say that jund wins 6/10.

Also, most nic fit lists run 4 deathrite shaman and 1/2 Scaveging oozes, so Punishing fire may not be the deciding factor in the MU

uncletiggy

10-04-2013, 04:54 PM

zulander

10-04-2013, 05:18 PM

Nic Fit is an example of where Liliana shine. Make sure if you are gonna remove their Explorers that you do so on the end of their turn and not on your turn, you want to be the one that abuses the mana first, and try not to do so until you've thoughtseized them so they can't just throw a huge dude. If you think they're gonna board in Deed make sure you bring in KGrip. Also board in Edicts for when they bring in the big guys.

Vlad Teppes

10-04-2013, 05:21 PM

Most nic fit lists run one deathrite if any and no goyfs I think you are mistaking junk for nic fit in which case your analysis is close nic fit preys on mid ranged decks like jund I believe the matchup is closer to 40/60 in thier favor depending on which of the four main versions you are facing

In my play group, the guy who plays nic uses 2 goyf and 3 shaman main, Idk if that's the standart nicfist list, he also plays tragtusk (idk how many) garruk and lilliana as one ofs

There's so many nic fits variations that i cant keep track of then all XD play testing against the same list over and over doesn't help either.

U think they have the advantage? it makes sense to me, it's a matchup full of details and interaction, IMO bloodraid elf and slivan library are key spells here as they usually get a lot of value

then again, I'm kinda new with Jund, I give more attention to my newfound dredge deck XD

Star|Scream

10-04-2013, 05:36 PM

Nic Fit does not play Goyf.

Nic Fit does not board in deeds. It plays them main deck.

Your best bet is an early Liliana and hand disruption, but they have better top decks than you, so if they have a top out you're in trouble.

As a Nic Fit player I am not worried about Jund at all, except maybe deathrite into turn 2 lil.

Cryoclasm

10-09-2013, 04:29 AM

Unfortunately Nic Fit is almost impossible to beat. They utilize Liliana better than us. Red build has Punishing Groves combo. More awful, there gold fish against us is like therapy on 1st turn, Explorer, flashback therapy and so on.
When Veteran Explorer hits the table you may be sure that soon there will be real threats which you can't deal with. I have seen such guys during my lifetime experience:

Primeval Titan
Grave Titan
Ruric Tar, the Unbowed(YES! It kills Jund right there)
Thragtusk

If they are in white:
Sigarda, Host of Herons(Normally you can only race it, good luck with that)
Baneslayer Angel (still hard to deal with since usually they play like 3 BSA)

I have decided to forget about that matchup since wasting half of my sideboard on it doesn't worth it, because there is only 1 Nic Fit and the guy not always plays the tournnaments.

aluisiocsantos

10-18-2013, 01:11 PM

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/commander-2013-spoiler.html#7963

Oh mans:

Toxic Deluge 2B

Sorcery
As an additional cost to cast Toxic Deluge, pay X life.
All creatures get -X/-X until end of turn.
"It's a difficult task to quarantine a plague that moves with the clouds."
—Esara, healer adept
Illus. Svetlin Velinov #96/51

adrieng

10-18-2013, 01:34 PM

I find fire covenant to be better than this, being instant and hitting only opponent's creatures is better.

aluisiocsantos

10-18-2013, 03:53 PM

Fire Covenant sure gives you way more control, but 2B is better to pay than 1RB? also, this hypothetically kills Emrakul (lol)
Might try out!

razvan

10-19-2013, 03:03 PM

Not only that, but it kills Mongoose.
This might be a really nice card to use as a one-of or two-of or so.

zulander

10-20-2013, 01:13 PM

Not only that, but it kills Mongoose.
This might be a really nice card to use as a one-of or two-of or so.

This will be good against Identity Nemesis lulz.

razvan

10-22-2013, 03:26 PM

So I went to a tournament and went an awesome 2-4.

However, I ain’t even mad. I lost one because I had 8 turns to draw a land and didn’t (both my opponent and I were staring at each other doing nothing), and one because I had 8 turns to NOT draw a land. Any threat or removal would have been game. So yeah. I also messed up a few times, which did not help.

Not that it matters but:

R1: 2-1 vs. Dredge
R2: 1-2 vs. UWR Delver
R3: 1-2 vs. UWR Delver (might have been 0-2)
R4: 2-1 vs. RUG Delver
R5: 1-2 vs. UWR Delver
R6: 1-2 vs. Sneak and Show

So yeah, 0-3 vs. UWR Delver. GGGGGGGreat!

But there were two games that made this tournament great.

Round 1 I beat dredge. Game 2, I went first, and cast an Ulvenwald Tracker. He replied by having a 9/9 Grave Troll and 4 2/2 Zombies on turn 1. I still won the game by blocking the 9/9 with random chaff until I managed to clear out the Zombies.

Round 6, already out of it, I play against Sneak and Show. Game 3. He goes first and plays a land.

I go 2nd and play a Bayou and a Deathrite Shaman.

He play land, Petal, Show and Tell, brings in Griselbrand. I kill it with Big Game Hunter. He draws 7, and after a flurry of Gitaxian Probes, he discards down to 7.

I surgical his Show and Tells, hymn him, and don’t play a land.

He plays a land, 2 Lotus Petals, Sneak Attack, sneaks in Emrakul, gets me down to 2 life, while he’s at 7, and has nothing in hand.

I play another land and a shaman, with a land and Krosan Grip in hand.

So he goes turn 2 Griselbrand, turn 3 Sneak Attack Emrakul, and he needs to draw a creature or lose. He of course topdecks Emrakul, but to be fair he had quite a few outs, including enough lands to can trip twice. But it’s amazing that Jund was able to come back against 2 RIDICULOUSLY broken openings by 2 broken decks.

HOPE!

aluisiocsantos

10-23-2013, 08:40 AM

HOPE!
Dang, sorry to hear man ,still pretty great results versus combo.

Also, loved the use of Big Game Hunter, didn't know the card - And it can eventually deal even with Goyfs

What was particularly annoying with the UWR matchups? Did you feel underprepared somehow to deal with them or just plain lack of luck?

from Cairo

10-23-2013, 10:07 AM

What was particularly annoying with the UWR matchups? Did you feel underprepared somehow to deal with them or just plain lack of luck?

I was curious about this as well. I haven't tested against UWR much.

I have played a bit against RUG and can imagine that sometimes when they 'get you' on the tempo plan - Stifle a land, Bolt a Shaman, Daze a Goyf/Bob - then you're out of the game, especially the case when they are on the play. I've had more success when I don't attempt to curve out, and instead wait for an opening on Fetching, look to Bolt their men with a mana or two up to play around Daze/Pierce and focus my early game on getting mana out then stabilizing in the midgame.

That said, UWR runs usually 8+ pieces of removal between Bolts, Plows and Grim Lavamancer and has the Stoneforge Mystic package that can be troublesome for us sometimes. I'd be interested to hear from Razvan and others that have had experiences with the match and how it played.

ironclad8690

10-24-2013, 11:40 AM

UWR Delver is insane against creature decks. If you can get punishing fire going you are looking good, but they generally board in RIP vs us so watch out for that. Life from the loam is awesome vs them if they don't RIP it before you can wastelock them. Don't forget the old trick that you can use surgical extraction after wastelanding red/white to turn them completely off of a color!

razvan

10-24-2013, 07:42 PM

Hard to say. I didn't draw very well, and I made some mistakes.

I think that Jund is a bit underpowered compared to it. They run a lot more removal than RUG Delver, but they don't have Goyf/Goose/Submerge. They are nowhere close to as fast. However, Geist and SFM are pretty rough. Batterskull is very annoying.

I need more practice. It could be better than I thought.

DragoFireheart

10-26-2013, 01:51 PM

Does this deck care about True-Name Nemesis at all? Between Lilly and discard it seems like we should be ok pre-board.

Xtreme

10-29-2013, 11:08 AM

Does this deck care about True-Name Nemesis at all? Between Lilly and discard it seems like we should be ok pre-board.

Not sure in what decks true-name nemesis will be used, but my assumpiton is that it's only gonna be used in merfolk. Merfolk is a very good matchup for us, and I don't think nemesis will matter all that much. If it looks like this guy is gonna be a problem/ more widely used the golgari charm out of the board can take care of him.

razvan

10-29-2013, 11:30 AM

ironclad8690

10-29-2013, 09:04 PM

I played against a blade control deck that had it (Esper Colors). It was a pain to beat with my maverick deck, but I can assure you it would have been a pain with jund as well. Luckily we have liliana to make them sac it, so there is a nice out. If blade ends up being where it sits we will be lucky as it will likely be alone/die to liliana shortly thereafter so long as we have it.

sdematt

10-29-2013, 09:19 PM

It's probably not that great in Merfolk. It's not a Lord and doesn't replace itself or do anything else.

That being said, it could be a good sb card vs. US specifically because it's fairly difficult to deal with. Our deck has issues with Hexproof and such, and this card is that on drugs.

Now, that being said, it could be OMGAMAZING or really crappy. We shall see.

Toxic Deluge, however, deserves slots. It's really good.

3 mana drain life sweeper seems fine as TES trying to knock out multiple bears, but where is Jund extracting value from this?

Most of Jund's creatures, beyond Goyf, are X/2 or less. Where do you play this card? I mean, if you hold back and try to blow someone out, sure, you might get the Elves player. I can see use against Tribal, I'll agree. Are you seeing potential applications elsewhere?

Also, don't be sad about UWr Delver. They're a good deck that can sometimes just out tempo you. P. Fires is good to have on your side for sure, but you need a bit more beef. In my Junk testing against Delver, I've found Loxodon Smiter to just ruin them. Boarding in Pernicious Deed has also been very good for me. We just need to find a Jund card that has beef but doesn't die to Rest in Peace. That's what you want against Tempo Delver. Thrun may be an option.

-Matt

razvan

10-30-2013, 01:30 PM

sdematt

10-30-2013, 03:58 PM

Hi Matt.

I think it's more of a case of "I need to blow everything up".

I still play at least one Damnation in my board. I have played BSZ. I have even considered Perish.

This is better than all those I believe.

Hexproof and the like are a real problem. Mongoose alone can be such a pain in the ass, especially because RUG delver's stifles and wastes and such are a nightmare on a crappy manabase, which Jund does have.

This card is not for value, at all. You need sweepers. That's it. Goyf survives this, unlike Damnation. And it's cheaper. Of course, the life loss is NOT trivial, so it might not work out, but who the hell knows anymore.

Goblins are not really an issue, minus the SGC which they don't play. Elves can be an issue by clogging the ground with a million elves then NO-ing. Affinity, well, this smokes the stupid Champion. So it's got lots of little uses here.

I currently play 1 Diabolic Edict myself SB for big-ass things. So this might be a straight replacement, and just pay 15 life vs. Emrakul if need be.

I see what you're saying, but what is your mainboard?

Is it something like:

3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman

2 Sylvan Library
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Bolt
3 Punishing Fires
3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
4 Bayou
2 Badlands
2 Swamp
1 Forest

As curious as this manabase looks, it's the closest I can get to the actual mana ratios of the deck without getting stuff we want, ex. Groves.
I haven't played Jund in a few weeks since I've been testing Junk exclusively for SCG Seattle (and I did well), I think or feel you have enough removal. Your board could look something like:

2 Disfigure
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Golgari Charm
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Duress
2 Rakdos Charm (great against the swarm decks, also doubles as graveyard removal if you need it, as well as destroying artifacts/Equipment)
1 Life from the Loam
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Open (non-graveyard dependent threat, sweeper, etc.)

EDIT: Forgot REB somewhere in here. Just jam it in ;)

Disfigure gives you more removal against the little guys/annoying blockers like Strix, also gives you more game in the Goyf/Goyf stalls; Chains is for Shardless and decks that cantrip a ton; Golgari Charm is good against the Tribal decks, Miracles, and stuff with Verdict or other big creatures; Grudge takes care of Chalices and Equipment; Duress for Combo since it cannot be redirected; Rakdos Charm to nuke yards, burn Elves players, and killing artifacts; Loam for the long game to get Groves and Wastelands back; Ooze to beat the Goyf mirrors and as more graveyard hate against slower decks like Loam, Lands, and a bad hand from Reanimator; and there's the 2 open. If you want your sweeper, I think that's fine. This could be Perish, Deed, Virtue's Ruin, or Toxic Deluge if you so chose.

I really don't think you need narrow cards like Edict, at least anymore.

-Matt

razvan

10-30-2013, 07:52 PM

The maindeck changes a lot. Basically I have 4 BBE, only one Library, one less thoughtseize, and switch the Decay and Bolt count around. I think I have 4 Lilianas too.

My manabase is this:

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Swamp
1 Forest

These are just off the top of my head, don't have the decklist with me, just worked from yours.

SB I have something like:

3 Surgical
3 Pyroblast
1 Jitte
1 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
5 slots that change a lot.

Right now I think it's 1 Chains, 1 Life from the Loam... 1 Pulse... err... 1 Edict which I don't really like and something else, can't think of it now.

Rakdos charm is 2 mana too expensive for GY hosing I think. They are stricly a turn 2 spell, and require mana being left up. That was my problem, I tested it and it was never relevant. On the draw, they would have 2 turns already, in which Dredge and Reanimator would kill you. The added utility might or might not be worth it, even against Swarm decks, because they are still at high life and it won't do anything.

I gave up on burn, so basically just need to take care of Show and Tell (maybe sb more heavily for those guys), Delver, and random combo, but more discard is bad given Leyline of Sanctity. I don't like bringing in more discard, 6 total spots + 4 Liliana seem fine to me.

Disfigure is VERY interesting. I am definitely thinking about it.

Fuzzy

10-31-2013, 11:19 AM

Maybe I'm missing something, but the 4th Bolt isn't better than the first Disfigure?

sdematt

10-31-2013, 11:44 AM

Maybe I'm missing something, but the 4th Bolt isn't better than the first Disfigure?

Some people switch the Decay/bolt ratio, so I didn't want to list it in the board in case you're running the split the other way.

-Matt

razvan

10-31-2013, 04:12 PM

So now I have been thinking about Disfigure. It’s not bad at all, but is it better than say… Shock?

Advantages of Shock:
- It does damage to Planeswalkers and players.
- There is nothing relevant that is Pro:Red, but Mirran Crusader is Pro:Black.

Advantages of Disfigure:
- Take 2 less damage from something with power of 2 or more, and toughness of 3 and more (otherwise it’d be dead either way)
- Is black. Black mana is more prevalent in our deck.
- Allows a 5/6 Goyf to safely attack into a Griselbrand. Both spells kill the Griselbrand, but this way, the Goyf survives and they gain 2 less life.

Similarities:
- Kill 2 or less toughness creatures. There is a crapload of creatures in this group.
- Similar ability in Goyf Wars

So I still don’t know. Seems very similar to Shock. I never wanted Shock.

sdematt

10-31-2013, 05:46 PM

You're primarily a BGr deck, so you want a black spell, in my opinion. BUG uses the card to knock out SFM, Delver, etc. which are the cards you say you're having trouble with. You already have 6-7 ways to remove a Mirran Crusader, which is WAY more than most decks, so I wouldn't worry there.

I've used it in BUG and I've liked it, and you're looking for something to do the same thing. Being able to cast it off your basics is also very important regarding Magus of the Moon, etc.

-Matt

So now I have been thinking about Disfigure. It’s not bad at all, but is it better than say… Shock?

Advantages of Shock:
- It does damage to Planeswalkers and players.
- There is nothing relevant that is Pro:Red, but Mirran Crusader is Pro:Black.

Advantages of Disfigure:
- Take 2 less damage from something with power of 2 or more, and toughness of 3 and more (otherwise it’d be dead either way)
- Is black. Black mana is more prevalent in our deck.
- Allows a 5/6 Goyf to safely attack into a Griselbrand. Both spells kill the Griselbrand, but this way, the Goyf survives and they gain 2 less life.

Similarities:
- Kill 2 or less toughness creatures. There is a crapload of creatures in this group.
- Similar ability in Goyf Wars

So I still don’t know. Seems very similar to Shock. I never wanted Shock.

from Cairo

10-31-2013, 06:09 PM

Being able to cast it off your basics is also very important regarding Magus of the Moon, etc.

Magus of the Moon isn't going to blank Shock too often. I get that if you fetched Swamp/Forest to facilitate Decay against a Moon that's awkward, but the other 21-22 lands in your deck will cast Shock easier than Disfigure.

That said I really don't think Punishing Fire Jund needs SB removal for x/2s.

The deck plays 8-9 pieces of direct removal and 3-4 Liliana to address creatures. I haven't had major issues with swarm agro. You mentioned Baleful Strix, but I don't want to 1 for 1/2 against Strix (after they've already cantripped)- REBing it on the stack, Punishing Fire or Ancient Grudge are much better ways to address this card. SFM decks generally don't fair well against the combination of Abrupt Decay/PFire for the Mystic and/or discard for the Equipment. The closest creature deck to causing issues is Elves, where Golgari Charm/Engineered Plague are really better than going 1 for 1 with them.

anakyn

11-04-2013, 03:33 PM

Hi guys, I have a question regarding the Canadian matchup: I know it's considered easy enough for Jund but I tested it dozen of times and my experience is pretty different.

Maybe I just suck at playing Jund (that's a possibility :D ), or my approach to the matchup is wrong, but while in Game 1 it seems to me Jund is ahead (like 55-45, if not 60-40), Game 2 & 3 seems like the opposite: Canadian boards in some huge cards vs Jund (Rough // Tumble, Submerge, Snare), while I just have some Pyroblast, which are good but not game-breaking.

My maindeck is pretty standard, with 3 Bloodbraid, 4 Thoughtseize, 3 Hymn, 3 Bolts, 3 Punishing, 4 Decay, 4 Liliana, 1 Library, 23 lands (3 Wastelands) and the usual creatures.

My sideboard has the 4th Bloodbraid, 2 Chains of Mephistopheles, 3 Duress, the 4th Hymn, 3 Engineered plague, 3 Pyroblast and 2 Extirpate.

Game 2 & 3 I just take out the Thoughtseize and board in 3 Pyro and 1 Bloodbraid, which represents card advantage and a good Mangoose blocker.

My main issue is Mangoose, but I guess that's common for any Jund player in this matchup.
Yes I have Goyfs, but they have Submerge and they could also kill it with their own Goyf + bolt.
I have Shaman to shrink their graveyard, but Shaman usually dies very fast to their bolts.
And I have Liliana, but between Pierce and Stifle it's not that easy to make her -2 work.

The second problem is I have very little control on my draws, while they have Brainstorm / Ponder: so while it's true we have generally "bigger" spells than them, they have much better control on their draws, and that means that the late game is pretty even.

If my starting hand has less than 3 mana sources they go tempo on me, and if their tempo plan works, they can win very fast and there's nothing to do.
So I often mulligan hands with few mana and no Shaman.

But also when it seems to me I have stabilized the board, a couple of Bolts or a well-timed Rough // Tumble can ruin it all.

I won't say it's a "hard" matchup, but I can't say as well it's easy.

Probably it's just me making bad decision, bad game plans or bad sideboard options, so I'd like to hear from you some suggestions.

BlackStarDeceiver

11-04-2013, 03:59 PM

My sideboard has the 4th Bloodbraid, 2 Chains of Mephistopheles, 3 Duress, the 4th Hymn, 3 Engineered plague, 3 Pyroblast and 2 Extirpate.

Game 2 & 3 I just take out the Thoughtseize and board in 3 Pyro and 1 Bloodbraid, which represents card advantage and a good Mangoose blocker.

Replace Extirpates with Nihil Spellbomb and try to fit in a single Life from the Loam.

This lets you play a controlling route more easily. You can grind them out pretty good if you are patient and they don't pressure you enough, just don't overextend into rough.

A common mistake is to -2 Liliana when they have blue up and unknown cards in hand and a Mungoose on board, if you have to play Liliana so be it, but then + her and letz them waste time and resources on her (not a general rule). Chains seems to be better then Hymn to Tourach as well, not too sure about this. Submerge can be played around with Groves if necessary. Just practice and try different tactics.

anakyn

11-04-2013, 05:05 PM

Replace Extirpates with Nihil Spellbomb and try to fit in a single Life from the Loam.

This lets you play a controlling route more easily. You can grind them out pretty good if you are patient and they don't pressure you enough, just don't overextend into rough.

A common mistake is to -2 Liliana when they have blue up and unknown cards in hand and a Mungoose on board, if you have to play Liliana so be it, but then + her and letz them waste time and resources on her (not a general rule). Chains seems to be better then Hymn to Tourach as well, not too sure about this. Submerge can be played around with Groves if necessary. Just practice and try different tactics.

Nice suggestions indeed, I'll try to answer the ones I already thought about.

1) remove Extirpates from the board.
I noticed many decks have dropped their Surgicals / Extirpates from the boards. I have not many clues about it cause I don't follow the metagame too often, but I guess it's a rational choice so I'll try to remove my Extirpates as well.
It's not an easy choice because I feel the combo matchup needs them pretty hard: the discard plan is strong in the first few turns but combo decks can recover from that rebuilding their hand or just topdecking their solution, so I think the extra punch from Extirpates is not something to overlook.
I like LftL very much so I'll give 1 slot to it, while I have some doubts about Nihil but I guess it would be an ok answer to my Canadian problem.

2) Be patient.
Yeah I know we should play the "control" role here, it's just not that easy because sometimes our control tools (which are very strong vs Canadian) run out before Canadian runs out of threats and/or counters.

3) Liliana's usage.
Since Liliana is key vs Canadian, being an amazing and reusable answer to their creatures, I always try to play her around Daze and Pierce, because I really want her to land on the battlefield. Playing around Stifle too is much more difficult though.
Let's say they have a Mangoose and Liliana come to play with them having U open, which is a pretty common scenario in mid-late game when I already dropped my removal on their Goyfs / Delvers and they've dropped their bolts / counters on my dudes:
- option n° 1: I try to -2 their Mangoose, they Stifle her, next turn Mangoose kills my Liliana and I'm in big trouble unless I draw another answer quickly
- option n° 2: I go for the +1 route, Liliana goes to 4 counters, next turn Mangoose takes her to 1, then I'm not able to kill their Mangoose anymore, and again I have to draw another answer quickly
The second scenario gives me more time to react, but disables my opportunity to get rid of Mangoose and taking quick control of the board, while the first scenario is more risky, but if they don't have Stifle (they could simply try to mind trick me) I kill Mangoose and I'm probably ahead.
I guess it depends also on how many Stifles they've already played against me and how many cards are they holding in hand when Liliana hits the battlefield, but generally speaking I think I'll try route n°1 more often then route n°2.

4) playing around Submerge with Grove.
I tried to do it and sometimes with success, but the problem here is I always try to fetch for basics (swamp and forest) before dropping my duals to fight their tempo-Wasteland plan, so that basic Forest is at the same time an answer (in the first turns) and a problem (later on). When I see lots of mana in my starting hand and in my first draws I skip the "basic lands" plan and I just drop my Badlands trying to avoid Bayou, but this route is rarely possible imho.

4) sideboard options and trying different strategies.
I tried many.
While the Thoughtseize always goes out, I also tried boarding out the Hymns, and sometimes even the Confidant.
Discard doesn't hurt them too much (after all, they have Brainstorm), while having the drawback to help them reaching threshold faster, and losing lifepoints vs an aggro deck is always risky.
If I have to board Hymns out in addition to Thoughtseize, I have 3 free slots and the issue becomes: what do I board in? Nihil spellbomb is nice, but what else?
The Chains? It seems a little too cute to me, because most times I would play them after having already tried to stabilize the board with removal and blockers (especially if they are pressuring me, as they should), and at that point Canadian has already used at least a couple of cantrips so the Chains have already lost much potential.
I even thought about boarding in a couple of Plagues naming Mangoose (reducing their clock) or Delver, but that seems like a weak answer so many times I just keep the Tourach in.
Life from the Loam on the other hand seems pretty good vs Canadian so I'll give it a try.

Thanks again for the help.

Asthereal

11-04-2013, 05:09 PM

Disfigure seems absolutely terrible in this deck. Why is that card being discussed? I understand we like black spells more than red spells, since we have more black mana available usually, but as already noted, Shock seems slightly better already, and then we're not even talking about Tarfire (grows Goyf), Burst Lightning (nice kicker) and the sorcery options Forked Bolt (can two-for-one), Chain Lightning (more damage) and maybe even Firebolt (flashback can be nice).

In the two mana heap there's also Magma Jet (nice scry) if we're not already maxed out on Punishing Fire. Red is just so much better in killing small guys it just seems rediculous to assign that task to black when it's not absolutely necessary.

razvan

11-05-2013, 03:02 PM

Yeah, so I wrote this huge post and it got lost in the... I don't even know why or where. So fuck it. Let’s start over.

This is the problem with this deck as far as I can see. There is not enough space in the sideboard to fit in everything needed, and thus this deck will be unable to beat everything one needs. So the solutions in the SB need to be multi-purpose. Having a specific card for one specific match-up can be horrendous. I tried running these:

Ensnaring Bridge
Big Game Hunter
Pithing Needle
Engineered Plague
Damnation / BSZ / Toxic Deluge
Other random crap

None of it was impressive at all. I still keep the Big Game Hunter in there for the cuteness factor, and it did carry its weight then they show and tell Emrakul, but otherwise… eh. It’s not worth it. Nor is Engineered Plague, although it could be helpful.

The problem is that you need to run at least 3 of a card to make it matter and be able to draw it a meaningful amount of times. The only 2 cards I think would be necessary for that is one graveyard hate (I run Surgical) and one blue hate (Pyroblast)

At the Legacy Champs, my sideboard was this:

3 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Life from the Loam
1 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Chains of Mephistopheles

I went something like…

LOSS R1 vs. Eli Kassis with RUG
LOSS R2 vs. Elves
LOSS R3 vs. Lou Christopher with Burn
WIN R4 vs. Esper of sorts
WIN, then LOSS R5 vs. Goblins

I actually won R5 vs. a local Philly player named Lindsey, but I gave her the win when I realized I wasn’t going to make money and would MUCH rather go play Vintage. I am also sorry for forgetting the names of my round 2 and 4 opponents. I didn’t bother keeping the notes.

Anyway, so losing vs. RUG and elves is an issue. Both of my opponents drew extremely well it seemed, and Eli could play circles around me. My elves opponent had such a huge board position on turn 2 and 3 even through my hand not being bad game 1. He got a turn 3 Craterhoof I believe. I mulliganned to a risky hand G2 vs. him that didn’t pan out: 6 cards, one land, bolt, 2 fire, abrupt decay, something else, and I couldn’t draw a 2nd land until it was too late.

So these are what I still maintain good match-ups, but unfortunately, they both got hands that I don’t think I could have beaten with simply “good” hands. I could be wrong.

Lou’s deck is simply too much for us, as usual. I do remember making mistakes, while he did not, so that’s probably why as well. But by then I was pretty checked out anyway. Despite all that all my opponents were fun, so the tournament didn’t suck at all.

Also, I might write a bigger report later on detailing what I remember from the entire weekend, but some highlights for Vintage.

The below has NOTHING to do with Jund!

===========================
I played Grixis control, and joined a 32-man single-elim grinder, quickly beating White Hate and going to time against Gush, but being ahead of life (with a Dark Confidant) vaulted me to the top-8 and my first money of the weekend.

Unfortunately, Adrian Becker and his affinity deck blew me out of the water. Ridiculous, that deck is.

On Sunday, I started out well, beating fellow Team Serious Joshua with Oath, before Reid Duke murdered me with his Storm deck. I kept a good hand, not great hand, Game 3, and he turn 1 Windfalled and Necropotenced. GG? GG! In retrospect, after being yelled at by someone, I should have mulliganned my hand that had a turn 1 Confidant, turn 2 Jace, or turn 2 Win if I drew more mana. Oh well.

Then I lost again to mulliganning like it was going out of style, starting 1-2 and out of top-8 faster than a $3 hooker at a police convention, I built my record of 6-3 upon the back of Oath of Druids deck, beating 4 or 5, including Lou Christopher with Burning Oath. He almost had me when I once again screwed up and he played to his outs perfectly, despite being in an absolutely hopeless position.

So I ended up 42nd.

The good news is that I met a few Sourcers, and of course the Vintage crew, be it Team Serious, Meandeck, and other old TMDers.
===========================

anakyn

11-05-2013, 06:01 PM

Honestly, 2-3 Engineered Plagues to sideboard in seem pretty useful to me in many matchups.

They do their usual job vs tribal (where they are like match-winners) and they are a very nice option vs other non-tribal decks too, for example Death & Taxes naming Humans and getting rid of their annoying Mothers and Thalias (and Mangara as well, but it's rarely played these days).
They seem great vs Grixis too.

One could argue that they are strong in those matchups where we are ahead even without them, but I don't think it's entirely true: while Merfolks is super-favorable anyways, the Goblin matchup could be a problem if they start big and we don't find enough removal in time, while the "Mother + Thalia" lock shuts down almost completely our removal tools unless we land a Plague.

Yeah, Golgari Charm could be an option too, but I don't like to lose our Confidants to it, while we don't have to name Humans with Plague every time we use it.

I'm playing 3 Plagues in the last few months and I'm ok with them.

ivanpei

11-05-2013, 06:39 PM

I had plaques there but cut them for the 4th Punishing Fire, 4th Bloodbraid and a Garruk Relentless. I feel that playing wide ranging aggro/midrange busting cards is more useful than narrow bomb answers. Also my anti combo package is 3 Duress, 2 Reb, 2 Pyroblast. I still feel that it's insufficient at times.

aluisiocsantos

11-06-2013, 07:44 AM

Plague was useful for me against Goblins and Merfolk recently, and should sill count if anybody is afraid of True-Name Nemesis, in other hand though, both decks also die to Punishing Fire, so I dunno up to where is it worth having the cards in the sideboard.

Also, I wonder why not so many people play Pernicious Deed, I've found it to save my ass so many times, plus it can deal with so many threats, and can go hand to hand with Plague.

Now, debating some new cards, theres of course the powerhouse Toxic Deluge, and there's also the more specific Sudden Demise

Sudden Demise XR
Sorcery
Choose a color. Sudden Demise deals X damage to each creature of the chosen color.
In the Skyfang Mountains, one misstep can mean the end of an entire clan.
Illus. Dan Scott

Thoughts?

from Cairo

11-06-2013, 10:00 AM

Plague was useful for me against Goblins and Merfolk recently, and should sill count if anybody is afraid of True-Name Nemesis, in other hand though, both decks also die to Punishing Fire, so I dunno up to where is it worth having the cards in the sideboard.

Also, I wonder why not so many people play Pernicious Deed, I've found it to save my ass so many times, plus it can deal with so many threats, and can go hand to hand with Plague.

In the past I've seen several lists utilize Pernicious Deed, it is a powerful sweeper. I think it is a bit slow at times particularly at addressing Elves. I honestly like Golgari Charm the best here for it's cheaper cmc and versatility.

Now, debating some new cards, theres of course the powerhouse Toxic Deluge, and there's also the more specific Sudden Demise

Sudden Demise
Thoughts?

I wouldn't write it off, but cards with X in their mana cost naturally match poorly with Cascade.

razvan

11-06-2013, 11:50 AM

I think the trick in the RUG delver match-up is to take out Bloodbraids. Here's my reasoning, albeit it might be flawed. I am usually dead by the time I hit 4 mana. Yes, if they have nothing, BBE can win, but those instances are few and far between, and they will stifle the cascade trigger.

While I usually take out Thoughtseizes, they might be fine to leave in, damn the life-loss. Take out 4 Bloodbraid Elves, and we have 4 spots to work with.

I am a great fan of putting in 1 Umezawa's Jitte and 1 Life from the Loam. Those are both excellent, even though they don't help you survive. An active Jitte is game.

The other card i have been considering for a long time is Wall of Blossoms. I would run 2. First, it replaces itself if nothing else. They could theoretically counter it and it's 1-1, but at worst, it's a 2-1. Which is in line with how this deck functions.

Then it's a pretty big wall for them to get through. Usually Goyfs are 3/4s unless there's a Ponder or a Hymn to Tourach in there somewhere (yes, Liliana and the odd artifact or enchantment, but I mean normally, and early on). It also stops Mongoose until a Lightning Bolt shows up, then it's still a 2-1.

So now the question is, are there any other matchups where it can be good?

Burn has 4 Guides and maybe something else, and Goblins would obviously have to get past it. Jund Mirrors, Merfolk, others, it could be beneficial.

Obviously it's just useless vs. Control and Combo, but then again...

Food for thought.

anakyn

11-06-2013, 03:47 PM

In the past I've seen several lists utilize Pernicious Deed, it is a powerful sweeper. I think it is a bit slow at times particularly at addressing Elves. I honestly like Golgari Charm the best here for it's cheaper cmc and versatility.

The biggest problem of Pernicious Deed in our decks is not the speed IMHO, but the fact it potentially kills many of our own creatures.
That's why I really like Deed in a control shell (I loved the old BUG control, such a pity it's barely playable in this meta), but I don't like it in Jund.

The same problem goes with Golgari Charm: it just kills many of our own threats (well not that "many" to be honest, just the Bobs... still we are losing resources).

Plague, on the other hand, is "customizable" on our opponent.

Take the TNN example: with Deed we should spend 3 + 3 mana to kill it, while sacrificing Deathrite / Goyf / Confidant; with Plague it's 3 mana and no sacrifice at all.
And as an answer to Canadian pressure, Deed is pretty easy to counter AND stiflable.

anakyn

11-06-2013, 03:58 PM

I think the trick in the RUG delver match-up is to take out Bloodbraids. Here's my reasoning, albeit it might be flawed. I am usually dead by the time I hit 4 mana. Yes, if they have nothing, BBE can win, but those instances are few and far between, and they will stifle the cascade trigger.

In the past, I though about boarding out Bloodbraid vs RUG, for the same reason you explained: sometimes we don't even reach 4 mana.

But that doesn't happen very often, especially if we choose our hands depending on mana resources (as we should do IMHO) and Jund vs RUG matchups usually become grindy games in which we stabilize at around 6-8 life points (sometimes more, sometime less), and then the only thing that matters are topdecks.
In topdeck mode, they have cantrips, and we have Bloodbraid.
Bloodbraid not only gives us card advantage when we need it most, but is also a blocker for Mangoose.
A topdecked Bloodbraid cascading into Liliana should be GG in the mid-late game, and that happens pretty often.

I think I would never put them out when I face Canadian decks.

ivanpei

11-06-2013, 07:45 PM

Thoughtseize should be the first to come out against rug. Not only is it tempo loss, you lose life. I replace my thoughtseize with Reb/Pyro and leave the rest of the MD alone. If you run 4 bloodbraid, you can drop to 2-3 but some amount should be there for gas. Other than that, I guess it's best to play around stifle and be careful with resource management. Also if you are on the play, opponents board out Daze usually so feel free to ram your spells without any mana open.

razvan

11-07-2013, 11:07 AM

I used to do that too, and it might still be the right play. However, there's a couple of things that I need to think about:

- You get knowledge of their hand, allowing you to play around things better. You are forced to play around Stifle, Daze, Fow, Bolt, etc... it's better if you don't have to play around ALL of it.

- TS is better on the play. Might take it out on the draw.

- Winning Game 1 seems to be the crucial part of the game. Winning the die roll as well.

- There are cards like Goyf and Mongoose that deal a lot of damage in the long run. Paying 2 life to remove them is a pretty good deal.

- Hymn to Tourach is awesome, but I think that reactive cards like removal, or ways to stop their damage, are probably better.

I think I might be just going about it the wrong way. Sometimes, you just "lose", no matter what you can do.

I still want to try Wall of Blossoms :)

ivanpei

11-07-2013, 07:18 PM

If rug nut draws you with a bunch of submerges and delvers, there isn't much you can do. It's that kind of deck. Wall of blossoms is unfortunately super narrow and only good against ultra aggressive decks like rug. But if you meta is like half delver, why not. Id prefer something like kitchen finks though because it's actually quite a bomb when you want to stabilize. It gives you so much value and it can swing as well.

aluisiocsantos

11-08-2013, 12:04 PM

RUG is the only reason I like keeping Life from the Loam in the deck.

razvan

11-08-2013, 03:37 PM

I tried Kitchen Finks. It's not "bad". Still 3 mana vs. 2 mana. I even tried Obstinate Baloth, since I bring that in vs. Jund and BUG mirrors (very very excellent). It's 4 mana though, so yeah, same damned argument.

Maybe a good old standby, Engineered Explosives?

Neffy

11-10-2013, 04:18 AM

For some reason I thought the matchup against D&T was favorable or at least fine. But yesterday i tested and lost a lot against it..
Giving our meta (and maybe yours too?) will se more D&T during the following weeks how do we stay tuned against them?

I run 4 decay, 3 bolt, 3 pun.fire -a pretty good removal pack that practically hits everything they have in their deck, assuming no early mother we cant answer..
AFter board we often have various forms of sweepers, like Plague, Deed, Charm, which also should help. Maybe also KRosan Grip.

What do we do against them if this isnt enough?
PS: I was hinted by a friend who played a skill guy at Bazaar of Moxen, who sided out goyfs, as D&T takes in Rest in Peace. Interesting!

tartashark

11-10-2013, 04:34 AM

it could be crazy....but what about 1 or better 2 young pyromancer in our jund deck? with it also our discrd card in late game can became usefull....and with punishing fire it is a really creature machine!

what do you think? and wich slot could we use?

thanks

anakyn

11-10-2013, 09:06 AM

For some reason I thought the matchup against D&T was favorable or at least fine. But yesterday i tested and lost a lot against it.

Yeah, I played this matchup a lot and I must say D&T isn't that easy, but with a bit of practice and attention to their threats (like always keeping mana open for a bolt in your EOT if they have Vial at 1 for Mother) you should be ok, Jund has several and recurring answers to everything they do.
Just don't be outplayed by their tricks, and play control, because a competent D&T player will play aggro vs us.

Rest in peace is problematic, so most times it should be the main discard target IMHO.

Neffy

11-11-2013, 03:46 AM

anakyn

11-11-2013, 11:31 AM

@anakyn

By playing control would that include siding out goyfs? We dont have that many dead maindeck cards against them?
What would you side out from the average Jund deck?

Thoughtseize is great against fetched equipment
Hymn might still be ok? Not sure here
Bolt, P.fire, decay stays for sure
Liliana? too many creatures in D&T? Single discard not so tough for them, and can be stopped by revoker.
Sylvan library is nice because of StP

First of all I have to say that my Jund build is slightly better than the "average" build against D&T, cause I play 1-2 more spot removals: 4 Decays, 3 Bolts, 3 Fires.

When I say "play control" I mean we should be reactive on their threats rather than try to race them.
With all the removal we pack, the control plan seems more comfortable to play, while racing them seems hard since they have more creature and more evasive, and Mom can block our biggest guy (Goyf) all day long.
The strategy I prefer is trying to stick a Confidant and growing card advantage while keeping their creatures and clock under control with our removal. Usually they plow Confidant right away, but if we play a turn 1 Shaman it's probable they won't have another answer for a turn 2 Confidant. Or we could just Thoughtseize away their Plow turn 1 and we have a Confidant in hand.

This is my sideboard plan against D&T:
+ 1 Loam: great against their strong denial
+ 3 Engineered plague: usually naming humans, but since I can draw multiple copies the 2nd one is useful for the Revoker too (naming Horror), which is IMHO the 2nd more annoying creature (besided Mom) we can kill right away with Plague
+ 1 Bloodbraid elf: this is debatable since it costs 4 and their denial is so much annoying, but usually the games vs D&T are long enough for us to reach 4 mana.
- 3 Tourach: Hymn is great in game 1, but since most D&T players boards in Wilt-leaf liege specifically for Jund, Tourach game 2-3 is a big risk that I don't wanna take
- 2 Goyf: there are 3 problems here --> Rest in peace, Mom and Crusader. While we can usually take care of the Mom and Crusader, Rest in peace can be an issue if it's not discarded, because even if we Decay it, the Goyf will take some time to grow again. That's why the Goyfs are the first thing I board out after the Tourach, and if I had Ancient grudge / Maeltrom pulse to board in (which I don't use right now, preferring the 4th Decay main), I would take out the 3rd Goyf too.

Liliana is great in this matchup: yes she can be stopped by Revoker, but it's pretty easy for us to get rid of it with some removal. And it's VERY risky to use her +1 unless we already are ahead because of the Liege.
But all in all, if Liliana starts growing and we can protect her, it's the fastest and more reliable way to beat D&T: whatever they do, they do it with creatures, so a Liliana with 4+ counters is more or less a lockdown.

Another point I'd like to make is the n° of Bolts in Punishing Jund: some lists play 2 and some others 3, I prefer the latter because I like to have a turn 1 answer to both Delver and especially Mom.
If they untap with Mom all become more difficult, and that's why I recommend leaving a Bolt / Fire in hand and mana open if they have Vial at 1 in your EOT.

Side note: this is one of those matchups where the Plague shines even if it's not tribal.
Now with all the TNN around it will shine even more, but I really don't understand why many lists in the last months decided to abandon the Plagues.

Neffy

11-12-2013, 04:52 AM

First of all I have to say that my Jund build is slightly better than the "average" build against D&T, cause I play 1-2 more spot removals: 4 Decays, 3 Bolts, 3 Fires.

When I say "play control" I mean we should be reactive on their threats rather than try to race them.
With all the removal we pack, the control plan seems more comfortable to play, while racing them seems hard since they have more creature and more evasive, and Mom can block our biggest guy (Goyf) all day long.
The strategy I prefer is trying to stick a Confidant and growing card advantage while keeping their creatures and clock under control with our removal. Usually they plow Confidant right away, but if we play a turn 1 Shaman it's probable they won't have another answer for a turn 2 Confidant. Or we could just Thoughtseize away their Plow turn 1 and we have a Confidant in hand.

This is my sideboard plan against D&T:
+ 1 Loam: great against their strong denial
+ 3 Engineered plague: usually naming humans, but since I can draw multiple copies the 2nd one is useful for the Revoker too (naming Horror), which is IMHO the 2nd more annoying creature (besided Mom) we can kill right away with Plague
+ 1 Bloodbraid elf: this is debatable since it costs 4 and their denial is so much annoying, but usually the games vs D&T are long enough for us to reach 4 mana.
- 3 Tourach: Hymn is great in game 1, but since most D&T players boards in Wilt-leaf liege specifically for Jund, Tourach game 2-3 is a big risk that I don't wanna take
- 2 Goyf: there are 3 problems here --> Rest in peace, Mom and Crusader. While we can usually take care of the Mom and Crusader, Rest in peace can be an issue if it's not discarded, because even if we Decay it, the Goyf will take some time to grow again. That's why the Goyfs are the first thing I board out after the Tourach, and if I had Ancient grudge / Maeltrom pulse to board in (which I don't use right now, preferring the 4th Decay main), I would take out the 3rd Goyf too.

Liliana is great in this matchup: yes she can be stopped by Revoker, but it's pretty easy for us to get rid of it with some removal. And it's VERY risky to use her +1 unless we already are ahead because of the Liege.
But all in all, if Liliana starts growing and we can protect her, it's the fastest and more reliable way to beat D&T: whatever they do, they do it with creatures, so a Liliana with 4+ counters is more or less a lockdown.

Another point I'd like to make is the n° of Bolts in Punishing Jund: some lists play 2 and some others 3, I prefer the latter because I like to have a turn 1 answer to both Delver and especially Mom.
If they untap with Mom all become more difficult, and that's why I recommend leaving a Bolt / Fire in hand and mana open if they have Vial at 1 in your EOT.

Side note: this is one of those matchups where the Plague shines even if it's not tribal.
Now with all the TNN around it will shine even more, but I really don't understand why many lists in the last months decided to abandon the Plagues.

Great advice. Thank you.
I will test this to night as I am pretty sure there will be D&T too.

Neffy

11-13-2013, 02:03 AM

Okay just a brief sum up of last nights action at a 34 man tourny

R1 I meet ANT, or some standard looking storm list.
I got nothing G1 but he sees no lotus petals from ad nauseam and kills himself. SB is -2 bloodbraid, -1 decay,-3 bolt, -3 p.fire, + 3 pyroblast, +3 duress, +3 surgical.
G2 I keep a hand w. duress, hymn, liliana, 2 lands and bolt. He starts with probe and cabal therapy and takes away duress. I play land, go. Then he goes a second cabal to take away hymn. I have nothing and die when he goes off.
SB change: -2 bloodbraid, +2 golgari charm. G3 is exciting. I start with Thoughtseize and see brainstorm, brainstorm, brainstorm, land, preordain, ritual, lions eye. I take ritual so he cant ramp that easily. I get early goyf going gets him down to 11. He tries to go off but chooses the Warrants way and makes 10 tokens. Im above 10 life i think. I top deck DRS and then have Goyf, lily, DRS. Goyf is 5/6 or 6/7. I make him sack a goblin, and passes. He doesnt attack as the he will only lose gobbos and not kill me the turn after. I can get two life from a goyf in the yard. I start pinging him for 2 each turn and gets him that way. The next top deck was golgari charm anyway.
1-0

R2 is against RUG which is a pretty good matchup for me.
He mulls to 5 and I keep. He goes ponder and I go DRS i think. He then burns my dude and puts down mongoose. Bob gets bolted too, and i Die without being able to do anything.
+ 3 pyroblast, +1 life from the loam, +2 golgari charm, -2 hymn, -4 thoughtseize.
G2 i never see a SB card. He gets early mongoose, i have liliana in hand. Then he sticks a second goose and lily takes care of one. Then she is killed, and so am i.
1-1
So very annoying that i never got anything to stick on the table, even when playing around daze all the time. He has every single card against me, where i draw only lands..

R3 is against a BW homebrew with lifegain and 8 board sweepers.
No legacy staple in the deck and I win 2-0 within 10mins.
2-1

R4 Affinity
I dont like this matchup, even with 4 decay and 184091854 burn spells. turn one he goes nuts with whole hand including cranial plating. i die.
+3pyroblast, +2golgari charm, --2 hymn, -3 thoughtseize
G2 I race him with dual bloodbraids. He has either etched champion or master of etherium. I keep decaying masters and win in the end.
G3 he goes turn 1 land, drum, thopter, memnite or something. I T1 thoughtseize and see cranial plating. Yoink! Also champion though...
He topdecks another plating and beats me to 10 or something. I have t2 dark confidant and bolt for equipped creature when he attacks. He tries to cast Tezz, but i counter it with pyroblast and grows goyf.
In the end i am at 4 with Bob, Goyf and he is at 5, with untapped Champion to block.
If i reveal bloodbraid i am dead. I reveal wasteland - attack with both creatures and bolt him. Pwew!
3-1

R5 mono black
A good player (and judge i think) is piloting mono black with multitudes of discards, and bitterblossoms and abyssal persecutor.
I have p.fire engine going and destroys all he plays and beats him with bob i think.
G2 is the same.
4-1

R6 is against esper vial. A death and taxes, with robot owls, nemesis! and tidehollow sculler.
G1 i go Thoughtseize and takes stoneforge. He has owl, thalia, nemesis, land, batterskull and vial in play.
I get out an early bloodbraid which burns his owl. I play 2nd bloodbraid, and he vials in thalia so i cant cast the decay i cascaded into! :(
Then he fills his board with dudes and i die. Got to greedy and should have played controllish here.
+1 engineered plague, +2 golgari charm, +3 pyroblast, -2hymn, -4 goyf and some other stuff.
Now i see he doesnt play counters and also mother of runes!
G2 he goes turn 2 RIP, which is OK, since i boarded out Goyfs. I only ever draw DRS once in the end, but thats when he kills me. soo... yeah...
4-2

Great and fun games. I have to learn when to go control style. I was mostly dissapointed in the RUG matchup. I think the SB was nice, however never got to meet real death and taxes with my dread of nights..
Mongooses are also a pain and i think i might drop the plague and go +2 toxic deluge (even though i didnt want to at first). Being sure that you can empty creature boards is nice. -1/-1 is not enough and naming humans isnt as good against death and taxes anymore as it was before - since mangara is left out now. Mostly elemental and horror is the problem.
Dos anyone have experience with deluge yet?

props:
+ decay
+ p.fire
+ bloodbraid
+ siding out goyf

slops:
- whole sideboard, since i almost never draw any cards.
- -1/-1 effects are underwhelming.

Thanks for reading.

razvan

11-13-2013, 03:39 PM

Ish

11-14-2013, 06:08 AM

I can't see a single situation where you would want to have less than 4 Lightning Bolt.

Half the time you will be on the draw, and half that time you want to be able to murder their turn 1 play. This is imperative. Not to mention doing so on the play, before untapping.

Not only that, but sometimes you want to be able to kill their turn 2 play on the draw, and wasteland them.

Lightning Bolt cannot be cut. I realize people with more success than me have done so, but they are incorrect.

Combo. Bolt just sucks vs combo and control. Yes it has niche situations where you can finish them after an ad nauseum or grisly draw, but in general it is weak. So packing 2-3 hedges against those matchups.

I do agree the card is great. I think 2-3 is the right number, and in this meta I'm see upping to 3 being correct. I like 3 PI, 3 bolt, 4 decay.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

fogxanic

11-14-2013, 03:53 PM

Hey anybody has recently played in tournament? Does true-name nemesis decks cause bad problems? More golgari charms and rebs to sb needed?

Neffy

11-15-2013, 02:10 AM

Hey anybody has recently played in tournament? Does true-name nemesis decks cause bad problems? More golgari charms and rebs to sb needed?

I have only faced two decks with it, and countered the first (with reb, 1 of 3 in SB) and died to another one that i did not pick with Thoughtseize.
I would say our deck is pretty safe against it;
TS and hymn discards it
Lily sacs him, if you can keep the rest of opponent's dudes away with bolts and decay
REB and Pyroblast in board (i would say 3-4 is max) counters him
Golgari charm as you say is neat too. I run 2
We have a ton of options to get rid of this guide and i am currently trying out Toxic deluge.

I'll be going to a larger tournament next week and expect to see him a lot there, so i will pack
3 pyroblasts, 2 charms, 2 deluge.

razvan

11-15-2013, 02:33 PM

GrimLavamancer

11-19-2013, 04:58 AM

Anthony Lowry put up a primer on starcitygames.com :

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27347_Project-Jund.html

I will read it when I get a moment, seems solid so far.

Also, about Bolt. I understand it can be less than useful in the control/combo match-ups, but think of this:

1) It takes about 15% of their life in a match-up where you have to race, in a match-up where you have to be the aggressive deck. For one mana, that is not trivial.

2) When it's good, it's really good, and it's so unbelievably necessary turn 1 against match-ups. Having a Lightning Bolt in your opening hand gives you a lot of percentage points against a lot of decks.

I need to analyze this a bit more, but I am reasonably sure that 4 is the correct count.

As for TNN, I have yet to see one played against me. I cannot imagine it to be a huge deal. As Neffy said, we are more stacked than any deck against it.

That being said, Golgari Charm is looking mroe and more like the solution to all our problems. Drew Levin was running 3 in his board for BUG, and I was impressed.

i am thinking this might be another 3-of in my sideboard, alongside REB and Surgical Extraction. It literally can do so much for so little.

I'm a strong advocate of lightning bolt, like you are, and I'll read the primer you posted, just wanted to say that last tournament I played (two days ago) I sucked hard, always on the edge of winning, ended up losing, again a wild amount of stuffs, like, elves, after I kept his board clean for three turns but couldn't find a plague, and a nemesis vs bant which got equipped with a batterskull :rolleyes:

I started to ponder about cutting bolt for maindeck Golgari charm, also slaughther games in the sideboard because miracle and these damn angels are just so annoying...
anyone thought about toxic deluge? I agree the life loss is huge, but so is the effect...
Another thing I noticed playing without sensei's top, is that I cascade too often is useless spells, so, I think I'll start playing with one sylvan library and one top, jsut to see how it works.
Lastly, I was running 4 bolt 3 punishing 3 decay, depsite this, vs rug I wished I had 4 decay (even if, I must say he was luckY? he alwasy dropped two goyf at once during the three game we had, supported by 2 delver and 2 mongose, wtf...), so I still wonder about the quantity of our removal... Punishing fire is cool and all, but even when I was in control, It always took a year to close a game...
I wish we had some kind of mass removal, something like whip flare (which won't touch our creature) would just be perfetct :(

Neffy

11-19-2013, 05:36 AM

I'm a strong advocate of lightning bolt, like you are, and I'll read the primer you posted, just wanted to say that last tournament I played (two days ago) I sucked hard, always on the edge of winning, ended up losing, again a wild amount of stuffs, like, elves, after I kept his board clean for three turns but couldn't find a plague, and a nemesis vs bant which got equipped with a batterskull :rolleyes:

I started to ponder about cutting bolt for maindeck Golgari charm, also slaughther games in the sideboard because miracle and these damn angels are just so annoying...
anyone thought about toxic deluge? I agree the life loss is huge, but so is the effect...
Another thing I noticed playing without sensei's top, is that I cascade too often is useless spells, so, I think I'll start playing with one sylvan library and one top, jsut to see how it works.
Lastly, I was running 4 bolt 3 punishing 3 decay, depsite this, vs rug I wished I had 4 decay (even if, I must say he was luckY? he alwasy dropped two goyf at once during the three game we had, supported by 2 delver and 2 mongose, wtf...), so I still wonder about the quantity of our removal... Punishing fire is cool and all, but even when I was in control, It always took a year to close a game...
I wish we had some kind of mass removal, something like whip flare (which won't touch our creature) would just be perfetct :(

We do indeed have random cascade results, but the sylvan helps here. Our deck pack so much value cards that in most cases you're happy about the cascade result. I understand that running into an Abrupt Decay with no non-land permanents on the opponent's board is sad, but that rarely happens right? The cascaded bolt in his face is not optimal either, but if you balance your deck well enough you should see nice cascades most times you dont have sylvan online. For some reason i always cascade into goyfs.. but thats okay. I miss however a third Hymn to make that more likely to cascade into :) It's sad that our MD is so tightly packed :/

EDIT: on a side note, one should play safe and avoid said 'cascade into decay' situations by not casting BBE if there are no potential targets. This depends on whether you go the aggro or control way through the matchup.

The top vs. sylvan have been discussed some pages back if you do a search. Seemed like the conclusion was that sylvan always was better because of card draws.
I have always liked the idea of slaughter games , but in most cases it was neglected as it is very very slow. However I might agree with you that it could be handy against Miracles and their Entreats. The uncounterbility of it is so nice and they always take forever to get a game going anyways. Jace is not an issue if you keep in BBE or Burn, especially P.Fire as he never will grow then.
Im fearing the Miracle match up to night and the upcoming tournament this weekend, maybe Games could actually help this matchup?

GrimLavamancer

11-19-2013, 07:34 AM

We do indeed have random cascade results, but the sylvan helps here. Our deck pack so much value cards that in most cases you're happy about the cascade result. I understand that running into an Abrupt Decay with no non-land permanents on the opponent's board is sad, but that rarely happens right? The cascaded bolt in his face is not optimal either, but if you balance your deck well enough you should see nice cascades most times you dont have sylvan online. For some reason i always cascade into goyfs.. but thats okay. I miss however a third Hymn to make that more likely to cascade into :) It's sad that our MD is so tightly packed :/

EDIT: on a side note, one should play safe and avoid said 'cascade into decay' situations by not casting BBE if there are no potential targets. This depends on whether you go the aggro or control way through the matchup.

The top vs. sylvan have been discussed some pages back if you do a search. Seemed like the conclusion was that sylvan always was better because of card draws.
I have always liked the idea of slaughter games , but in most cases it was neglected as it is very very slow. However I might agree with you that it could be handy against Miracles and their Entreats. The uncounterbility of it is so nice and they always take forever to get a game going anyways. Jace is not an issue if you keep in BBE or Burn, especially P.Fire as he never will grow then.
Im fearing the Miracle match up to night and the upcoming tournament this weekend, maybe Games could actually help this matchup?

it surely can help, since my opponent, which is a widely reknown italian miracle playe, directly ask me if I packed extra hate like S.Games for him.
I would say though, that you need to run almost 2/3 copies of it to be effective, and sideboard is thight. Indeed I saw another jund player losing vs another miracle player since he didn't see it in time (they were like on turn 12) (but he sided just one copy of it and 2 maelstrom pulses, one of which were countered if I'm not mistaken)

Neffy

11-19-2013, 07:40 AM

it surely can help, since my opponent, which is a widely reknown italian miracle playe, directly ask me if I packed extra hate like S.Games for him.
I would say though, that you need to run almost 2/3 copies of it to be effective, and sideboard is thight. Indeed I saw another jund player losing vs another miracle player since he didn't see it in time (they were like on turn 12) (but he sided just one copy of it and 2 maelstrom pulses, one of which were countered if I'm not mistaken)

SB is tight indeed, do you know the SB list? I am currently locked with 3 surgical, 3 pyroblast, 3 duress, 2 golgari charm and 4 flex spots.

ironclad8690

11-19-2013, 11:57 AM

Did any of you guys play in the GP? I would love to hear a tournament report

GrimLavamancer

11-20-2013, 10:24 AM

SB is tight indeed, do you know the SB list? I am currently locked with 3 surgical, 3 pyroblast, 3 duress, 2 golgari charm and 4 flex spots.

In a second:

While lately I've been playing without wastelands (with no real difference in my opinion) I've come down that in my opinion, that's the jund core:

(nothing bad breaking I advice you)

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Bloodbraid Elf

3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Sylvan Library

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire

3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach

4 Grove of the Burnwillows

3 Badlands
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire

1 Swamp
1 Forest

3 Wasteland

This leave room for about 3 cards,
since show and tell is the most common combo, I think that a 4th liliana may be a good choice in most case to fill that spot, yet with the incoming increasing of stoneforge&nemesis deck, a quick thoughtseize able to rob their creatures or batterskull may be preferred,
said this, would be that crazy running two golgari charm main deck?
Seems to help agains elves, (not totally sadly, since nettle and shaman lives, but It can be casted on behemoth trigger too, and really quickly, so...)
Surely can help vs grixis tempo, killing like, their whole board?
Will help vs merfolks, if they start running the list they are there, a single charm coupled with a bolt hitting their lord, could kill the now defenseless cursecatcher + nemesis + silvergil...
can help vs goblin, since you'll nab their token,lackey,
Is a lot of help vs bant and D&T: kills hierarch, bop, nemesis and vendilion + elpeth tokens in bant, kills like everything vs D&T.

Notable stuffs it doesn't kill are:
shaman, msytic, mongose (but only if already in thresh, otherwise it kills it, pretty nasty too)
Notable play outs are:
Not dying to Empty the warren tokens, killing RiP g1 or even counterbalance or white leyline, help you surviving Engignereed Explosives at two:
I lost a game to that.

So, call me crazy, but, may it be worthy?

For the sideboard I was thinking about

3 Graveyard hate which, is debatable: relic/bomb/tormod's each helps vs Dredge/Rug/Mirror/reanimator, yet since these are less common (at least here) I can say surgical/extirpate are nice as well, since they deal with deck like all-spell-combo (which usually goes of turn 1/2), can still hit Narcomoeba on the trigger, will somehow help vs burn, will help vs opposite Punishing Fire.
2/3 Duress: Extra discard helps vs Show and tell AND storm, notice that all our maindeck discard can be misdirected to us, and they know it (at least, here they do :D) while duress cannot be misdirected.
2 Krosan Grip: I think these are needed, or can be replaced by Ancient Grudge, reason are: Counterbalance extra hate, omniscence extra hate, Sneak Attack hate, Batterskull and Jitte Hate.
2 Needle: they seems to be catch all, they catch random planeswalker, sensei's top (doomsday + miracle mostly) but also wastelands (if you don't run them maindeck), also Sneak Attack, and Griselbrand.
2/3 Golgari Charm: Reason I've already explained before, I used to run E.Plague, but I think the istant speed is just better, for sure I would currently run 3 if I've none in the maindeck.

this leave rooms for 2/4 slots.
I can add something:
Playing 4 ASHEN RIDER over Needles AND grips seems also a good advice if you are infested by S&T, that's because if you have one, you don't care about them resolving S&T, you break their plan, AND you have a flying 5/5 to swing with:
This is somethinig I've been pondering myself, but seems a real solid choice mostly for OMNI show, rather than SNEAK attack variants, since they can drop a Grisel, draw 7, and combo out next turn, so you should be needing extra hate anyway.

Pyroblast... don't know I love its ability to catch all but, let's be honest here:
Jace, is usually taken care by Punishing Fire or Bloodbraid Elf.
Merfolks: see punishing fire.
Delver: see punishign fire bolt
Show and tell: you counter One at best, you lose to the next one, at least, this is my experience.
ANT: mostly useless
Doomsday: Very good, since Ideas unbound is one of their key spell, but: will it pass the 8chants&discard effect? at least Doomsday isn't that played.
High Tide: very good
But
Cascading into ReB/Pyro is pretty lame, first, and let me add:

Slaughter games does way better vs High Tide, they are slow, a discard in the first two turn will let you slaugher them 99% of time for a sure win

Slaughter Games helps vs miracle too, and if run in 3 copies, chances are that you will resolve it in time most of times.

Slaughter games AND extra discard sounds better than discard and surgical AND pyroblast vs like all combo deck:

Don't know you, but I used to run this plan, 2 duress 3 pyro 2/3 surgical, and SOMETIMEs, when you could extract their omniscence/show, it will work,
but, isn't it better to run something like 2/3 extra duress and 2/3 slaughter game for the same result?

These, are my current Ideas for the deck.

Let me know what do you think about!

razvan

11-20-2013, 11:10 AM

o_boogie

11-20-2013, 11:28 AM

I was originally planning on playing BUG Delver for the GP, but after seeing all the fair decks during the earlier grinders I called an audible and decided to go with Punishing Jund. I apologize for the lack of detail as I did not take notes during or after the matches.

GPT Grinder #6 Tournament Report (decklist: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpwas13/day1#1)

Round 1 v. Pox (2-1)

Game 1 I Thoughtseize Liliana out of my opponent's hand leaving him a Cursed Scroll and Bloodghast. He edicts my Goyf and I drew no more action, so Scroll and a hasty Bloodghast kills me. Game 2 takes forever with him nuking my hand and lands, but I finally stick a Bob and kill him with Goyf and Bloodbraid Elf. Since there must be a winner game 3 is played under sudden death rules. I mull to six to see a Bolt and a fetch and a Wasteland. I could mull to five but that would be pretty bad in general, especially considering Pox does not have a lot of sources of damage early in the game. My opponent plays turn one Mishra's Factory and off that plays Pithing Needle naming Wasteland. FML. I need to draw a Badlands or I lose. I didn't draw it and die. My opponent conceded since he was there for the Judge Conference and was not playing in the GP. Sweet!

Sideboard plan: -3 Hymn to Tourach, +1 Ancient Grudge, 1+ Krosan Grip, +1 Surgical Extraction

Round 2 v. U/W Blade (2-0)

I saw my opponent was on TrueBlade and knew the key to this matchup was to bait his hand out and come over the top of him. Game 1 I bait an early Swords to Plowshares with a DRS and then stick a Sylvan Library allowing me to find all the answers for his True-Name Nemesis and Stoneforge Mystic. Game 2 I bait out STP turns 1 and 2 with DRS and Bob, hoping to stick Liliana a few turns later. My opponent manages to resolve TNN and equip with Sword of Fire and Ice, but I buy time by Abrupt Decaying the Sword. Liliana kills TNN and Goyf beats gets there.

Sideboard plan: -3 Hymn to Tourach, -1 Goyf, +1 Nihil Spellbomb, +1 Golgari Charm, +1 Massacre, +1 Krosan Grip

Round 3 v. RUG (2-0)

Game 1 I fetch out basics and play around Daze. I Abrupt Decay an early Goyf. I use discard to remove counters then I come over the top with a BBE that cascades into my own Goyf. Game 2 I resolve an early Goyf and that keeps his Goyf and Nimble Mongoose at bay. I almost die after my opponent Submerges my Goyf in response to a fetch, but I topdeck like a champ and Abrupt Decay his other Goyf then play BBE which cascades into Liliana.

Sideboard plan: -3 Hymn to Tourach, +1 Nihil Spellbomb, +2 REB

Round 4 v. Affinity (2-0)

Game 1 I Thoughtseize away Etched Champion and Tezzeret on turns 1 and 2. I also waste one of his artifact lands shutting off Mox Opal. Goyf beats get there when he bricks on land. Game 2 he leads with a Chalice for 1. I suspect he may bring in Blood Moon so I fetch for a basic Forest with my Verdant Catacombs. Turn 2 he plays Ancient Tomb and Blood Moon. This was fine as it allowed me to tap my second land which was not a red source to play Ancient Grudge to kill the Chalice then tap the forest to kill his non-metalcrafted Etched Champion with the Grudge flashed back. BBE beats finishes him.

Sideboard plan: -3 Hymn to Tourach, -1 Goyf, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Krosan Grip, +1 Golgari Charm, +1 Toxic Deluge

Round 5 v. U/B Merfolk (2-0)

Game 1 I am able to assemble Punishing Fire and kill all his threats pretty quickly. He runs out of gas and a BBE kills him. Game 2 I resolve a Liliana and Punishing Fire creating the soft lock and kill him in similar fashion.

Sideboard plan: -3 Hymn to Tourach, -1 Thoughtseize, +3 REB, +1 Ancient Grudge

Overall record = 5-0 (10-1 in games)

Comments:
-Shout out to Paul for conceding to me in round 1. I caught a lucky break and took advantage of it.
-The sideboard needed some work. I would probably add a Diabolic Edict and Ensnaring Bridge and Chains of Mephistopheles to the board. Jitte was underwhelming. I also like the idea of Crop Rotation to get Grove or Karakas or a timely Wasteland. Will be testing this.
-I am not sure if boarding out Hymn in all the games was correct. After Round 1 I did not lose a game the rest of the Grinder. Thus, being on the draw game 2 of every round Hymn is less spectacular if you fall behind in board advantage. Lot of the matchups were grindy and drawing discard late in the game is not the greatest.
-I went 7-2 day 1 of the GP beating Death and Taxes twice, RUG, Shardless BUG, and the Jund mirror. I lost to Shardless BUG and BUG Delver. Day 2 I went 1-2-1 beating Merfolk, losing to Elves twice, and tying RUG. Winning the byes were huge as it allowed me to dodge a bunch of silly decks like Aluren and Burn and Dark Depths combo, etc.
-The cards that really shined were Sylvan, Punishing Fire, and Liliana.
-Overall the deck felt really solid. I never felt outmatched during any of the games during the grinder or the GP, but on the other hand was lucky to dodge combo. If the meta continues to include a lot of Delver, Blade, Merfolk, and Death and Taxes I believe this is a fine choice for the foreseeable future.

GrimLavamancer

11-20-2013, 12:23 PM

That list is as close to optimal and un-cut-able as it gets. The only 2 cards which I think might be able to go are:

1 Sylvan Library
1 Grove of the Burnwillows for 1 Wooded Foothills

The 3 cards I would put in would be the 4th Bolt, Liliana and BBE.

The Library is awesome and there isn't anything I like better in a general field, but it's not wrong to cut it.

The optimal sideboard, on the other hand... oh boy, wish I had any clue, since about 800 cards could be good for it.

this is what I've done last tournament, adding the lybrary as 61* cards, but I wasn't happy, actually I sucked hard, may have been back luck, but as I said, I found myself overwelmed by swarm of elves, or nemesis that got equipped easily, or swarms of angels miracles after realllllly long games...

@Anthony (am I right?)
how was the deludge in the sideboard?
did you missed a third/fourth bolt having only two of them?

fogxanic

11-20-2013, 03:06 PM

I played today in 17 player tournament and placed 2nd. G1 vs. Jund valakut 1-1-1, G2 vs. shardless bug 2-0, G3 vs. bug control 2-1, G4 vs. mono red painter stone 2-0. This was my third tournament with this deck and still undefeated (2 previous 4-0 and won 8 player tournament where loser drops).

I really miss extra red lands for more punishing fires in a turn (have 2 badlands and 4 grove).

Kihashi

11-21-2013, 03:55 PM

I played Jund in DC this past weekend. I don't quite have a tournament report, but here my notes as best as I can remember.

GP DC Main Event

Key: M = My Mulligan
O = Opponent Mulligan
P = I am on the play.
D = I am on the draw.
W = Game Win
L = Game loss
T = Game Tie

Round
Deck
Game 1
Game 2
Game 3
Result
Sideboard
Comments

1
UR Delver
DMML
PL
NA
Loss
Golgari Charm, Life from the Loam, Jitte
Game 1 was a mull to 5, so he only needed to counter a couple spells to win. I couldn't even really play around daze that well because I was already behind. Game 2 he got a god hand of T1 Delver into stifles and counterspells.

2
Elves!
DMOL
PW
NA
Draw
Golgari Charm, Jitte
G1 I saw little removal and he was able to swarm me down after I hit BBE, Lili, and Hymn off of Bob. G2 he took a 1 land hand and once I golgari charmed 4 of his elves (2 mana elves) away, he was stuck on one land the rest of the game. Unfortunately, I didn't draw anything to finish him off until many turns later. I finished it out in turn 3 after time is called, so we draw. I could probably have played this faster, but I was not very familiar with the matchup.

3
BUG Control?
DMW
DW
NA
Win
Duress, Pyroblast
I didn't actually see him play anything relevant in either game. I assumed BUG Control because I saw no Strixes or Shardless, but I am still not 100% on that.

4
UWR Stoneblade
DMW
DW
NA
Win
Ancient Grudge, Pyroblast, Jitte
G1 my opponent never saw a SFM and I was able to nuke all his creatures. If he got any equipment in play, it was never equipable or died fast. G2 he placed down an early Rest in Peace. I didn't have a goyf, so I did not care too much. He doesn't really get anything esle out, so I get to beat him with a confidant while getting waaay more cards. Eventually I kill the rest in peace and lay out a goyf, who gets in for ~8 before another RIP comes down. It is too little too late, though, as I cast BBE and swing for lethal. He got a mystic this game, but I killed it and made him discard batterskull.

5
Painters Stone
W
DMOOW
NA
Win
No SB for this match
My opponent gets a GL for a deck registration error, so we play game 2 with no sideboard. He mulls to 5. He plays grind stone without enough mana to activate, so I abrupt decay it at the end of his turn and then thoughtseize the servant in his hand. He draws nothing else relevant during the game and dies quickly to a goyf.

6
UB Reanimator
PW
DL
PW
Win
Grafdigger's Cage, Surgical Extraction, Pyroblast, Scavenging Ooze
G1 I am able to lay down enough disruption to stop the combo before it goes off that he dies 2 goyfs. Game 2 he discards a Grizzlebrand turn 1 and I surgical extract it EOT. That delays him, but I don't get enough disruption to keep him off an Iona. Once he gets her out, I have 2 turns to pull something out, but only draw more black cards. I am only a couple life shy of killing him at the end, though, thanks to deathrite and BBE. G3 he starts the game with 2 pithing needles and keeps. I end up getting stuck on lands after a needle is played on DRS, but I can still play enough hymns to keep him off the combo. He plays a second needle naming a fetchland even though he knows I have a maelstrom pulse in hand. I draw a 4th land to play the pulse and draw a Scooze next turn. With both Scooze and DRS out, he is quickly brought down.

7
UW Stoneblade
PMW
DOW
NA
Win
Ancient Grudge, pyroblast, Jitte, Diabolic Edict
G1 was pretty easy, but i don't remember much from it. G2, I am able to set him off his plan by killing SFM. I make him discard batterskull and kill a sword, but he is eventually able to stick a sword of fire and ice. I have punishing fire and grove, so I am holding open mana to kill whatever he plays. I forget what my reasoning was at the time, but here is where i make a mistake. I tap out to play something (a goyf, I think) and he plays clique end of turn and equips it the next turn. Fortunately, he decides to attack with it and I am able to race him, but just barely. I ended up making another mistake on the last turn. He is at 4 and I have a P Fire in the yard and a Shaman out and active. I play a wasteland and kill his Academy ruins. That leaves me with 3 lands and 1 land in hand. I was afraid he could return his batterskull, but he would not have had enough mana to cast it and in any case, it can't attack. On his turn, he cracks a fetch. At this point, I could have killed him if I had played my other land instead of wateland. He gets another attack, another draw, and another shuffle for his Sensei's Divining Top. Fortuantely, he doesn't get anything good off of it and I am able to kill him on my upkeep.

8
UWR Stoneblade/Delver
DW
DL
PT
Conceded

I played this game against Matt Costa, so that was kind of nerve wracking. I get game 1 with a nice suite of removal back by a tarmogoyf. G2, he gets a hand with 2 rest in Peace (and my hand has a goyf and an abrupt decay). Because he has 2, I can't do anything about them until much later and end up sitting with 2-3 0/1 Goyfs most of the game. He gets a SFM to get batterskull. I kill it, but he is able to get enough mana to hardcast batterskull. Since my threats were confidants and DRS, he is able to ride the skull to victory. We only have 10 minutes left for game 3, so we both agree to play a little faster. He gets out a batterskull and I make the mistake of playing ancient grudge into a daze that I knew he had in hand. I then make the mistake of flashing it back when he has 3 mana open. My other removal is met with either a return and play or a counterspell. I also remember that I made a mistake with tapping mana and with playing a BBE over other cards, but I don't remember the exact circumstances at this point. Any way, we go to turns and he is slowly killing me, but between a block with a Bob and DRS activation, I end turn 5 at 1 life. I decide to concede to him, because with a draw neither of us makes day 2 and it is more important to him. Plus, he was really nice and courteous to me throughout the match. I think that I might have been able to win the match if I had not made so many mistakes in G3, but I think that I did ok.

Ending record: 5-1-2 (or officially 5-2-1)

General Notes

I think that I am overvaluing Blood Braid Elf. Yes, she is good, but is she 4 mana good when you can play other things? Probably not. She is very risky in that you can turn over a late game hymn or a DRS, which is not very useful at the time.

I need more experience with different decks so I get more comfortable determining which creatures are important, what spells I need to play around, and how important discard is to have in opening hands.

I need to play a bit faster in some of the more drawn out matches.

The field I played against was very good for this deck. I did not see any show and tell and not much delver.

I like the flexibility of golgari charm, but I think that I would play Toxic Deluge over it if I had to do it again. Not many of my matchups were hinged on enchantment destruction except the last one and that was due to the redundancy, not because I did not have removal.

My list was very close to this:

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=5951&d=234519

I did
- 1 Inquisition
+ 1 Thoughtseize

SB:
-2 Engineered Plague
+2 Golgari Charm

EDIT: Stoney Silence -> Rest in Peace

Derm

11-22-2013, 03:31 AM

razvan

11-22-2013, 09:04 AM

Holy hell, Kihashi, that's the way to write up a report. I will read it when I get a second!

Kihashi

11-22-2013, 01:56 PM

Has anyone tried Pyrostatic Pillar in the sideboard versus Storm? It hurts you too, but it seems like it would really help the race and it probably prevents them from killing you. All you would really need to do is stick a Goyf. Is it too narrow? Would it be good against other decks?

I played it in the sideboard of burn (which also plays lots of low cost cards and is hurt by pillar). I found it useful in 2 matchups: storm and Elves! It is probably also good vs. high tide, but I have never tried it. There aren't really any other decks that play a large amount of spells in a single turn. Other combo decks play 1-2 spells to get a fatty out, which pillar doesn't really help with. The thing to keep in mind is that in Jund you are losing life to other sources (Bob), so pillar might hurt a bit more than in burn.

Holy hell, Kihashi, that's the way to write up a report. I will read it when I get a second!

Thanks! That is the first time I have written a report, so feedback is welcome. I probably should have kept better notes after each game, because I am sure that the play by play is not entirely accurate. I _did_ get game results, mulligans, and decks down in my notes though. I am happy to answer any questions about the tournament, though.

(PS: I got to play vintage there with real power and it was amazing.)

razvan

11-25-2013, 12:34 PM

From Julian Knab's article last thursday on him winning Bazaar of Moxen (the part 1 of his amazing article):

Jund

+2 Abrupt Decay
-2 Heritage Druid
+1 Natural Order
-1 Viridian Shaman
+1 Progenitus
-1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
+1 Scavenging Ooze
-1 Craterhoof Behemoth

Jund is definitely one of your better matchups. They might have access to all the answers (Punishing Fire, Engineered Plague, Liliana of the Veil, what-have-you) but often run into problems actually putting up an offense while disrupting you. Their best bet is casting Hymn to Tourach or Thoughtseize after your second turn in order to hit an otherwise devastating Natural Order. After sideboarding, expect Engineered Plagues. If they also sideboard Grafdigger's Cage, you want to go up to three Abrupt Decays.

So normally I believed that Elves is a pretty fair match-up for us (not overwhelmingly amazing… because it turns out NOTHING is great match-up for Jund, just “good”), but when someone of Julian’s caliber says something, attention needs to be paid.

That being said, I don’t think he’s entirely correct in here.

Obviously the one card that puts this match-up over the top is Natural Order. At the Legacy champs in Philly, an elf player demolished me very quickly with NO. I killed a billion elves, and he’s like… ok, no problem, Natural Order. Great.

His sideboarding guide includes adding Abrupt Decays (2 or 3 depending on whether there’s a Graffdigger’s Cage and/or Engineered Plague, neither of which I play, but that could be wrong), a 4th Natural Order (Jeebus!), an Ooze, and changing his Natural Order package.

Julian suggest bringing in a Progenitus and the Ooze for the Ruric Thar and the 2nd Behemoth.

I don’t really know why he is taking out Ruric Thar for Progenitus, I think Ruric is actually slightly better… Sure we can double bolt Ruric (unlikely since we are using bolt judiciously and taking 12 damage seems… bad?), but our outs to both is precisely one card: Liliana of the Veil. The other outside case is actually blocking it, but his other point of us not being able to mount an offense is correct. We rarely have blockers in this matchup because we have to spend way too much time killing crucial elves… as in ALL elves because of the threat of Natural Order.

Either way, Ruric Thar is scary. We have to spend time sniping all their other elves in order to Liliana their NO target, a plan that Ruric stops dead. Progenitus is actually a 2 turn clock (with some luck, as in a first turn Shaman, it might be a 3 turn clock… but that’s a LOT of luck), and with 4 Lilianas, you can actually play for this very eventuality.

Golgari Charm, a card that I am starting to advocate as a 3-of, seems really good too. At one point in his article, talking about other decks, he says it’s not a big deal, but those other decks don’t have the removal we do. If the elves start to get out of hand (and they will), this can help you play catch-up. It’s also relatively good as an end of turn thing (or in response to Craterhoof) to mop up any remaining elves in order to get Liliana down to deal with that Natural Order target…

Finally, there’s also the option of siding in Surgical Extractions, and hoping a discard hits a NO. This seems bad, but it’s out there. Without NO, their deck seems a lot less scary. I guess desperate times? Julian seems worried about Graffdigger’s Cage, and while that is better since it stops GSZ as well, it doesn’t seem completely insane to bring in Surgicals, if NO’s really are that bad.

I don’t have a ton of experience against Elves, so I could be wrong on all counts, but this is what I feel is right. You are definitely the control in this match-up, and if you can squeeze in a Tarmogoyf to act as a pseudo Abyss at some point… hey, sweet.

Nuke is Good

11-25-2013, 02:23 PM

SCGO Providence was my first competitive tourney ever in Magic. Compared to the friendly tourney I did a few weeks ago. A friend of mine warned me TNN would be the flavor of the month so I sideboarded appropriately. Pretty bad showing for me.

3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Liliana of the Veil

1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills

1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Life from the Loam
4 Thoughtseize

Sideboard
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pithing Needle
2 Choke
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Extirpate
1 Toxic Deluge

Legacy Side Event
UWx Delver/Stoneblade
G1 Dark Confidant because glorified fetchland. But doesn't fetch me removal to deal with two Insectile Abberations.
G2 I thoughtseized two batterskulls but Stoneforge Mystic got a 3rd out and attached it to TNN. I did not draw my Golgari Charm or Toxic Deluge to deal with the beatdown.

Rogue Deck
Game 1
Trinisphere
Bloodmoon
Beat down by transformed instigator gangs since I couldn't cast anything. Fetched my basics in an effort to fight it no good.
Game 2
I thoughtseized and extirpated his magus of the moon within 3 turns. But all I had the whole game was a basic swamp and a grove of the burn willow.

Rounds 3 and 4 I won by default

Legacy Open

R1 D&T
I feel embarassed by this particular round.
I managed to wasteland all lands he put out (never threw down a basic plains) and I was using life from the loam to keep the pressure up. But he also had an Aether Vial in play so I was on the receiving end of Serra Avengers. Ancient Grudge and Abrupt Decay was found in the middle of my deck hanging out in the badlands,
I don't remember game 2 but I lost

R2 Some kind of bitterblossom deck
G1 Hymn to Turok the Dinosaur Hunter makes Goyf huge and brings the pain.
G2 Both of us managed to do -6's on Liliana I lost like 12 lands during that game. Ensnaring Bridge was out and being the dumbass I was I decided to Hymn him and then came the pain. I inched out the win because his two bitterblossoms actually put him to 0 on his upkeep. Thank you DRS for bringing the pain during the lockout!

R3 Belcher
G1 I thought he was seriously playing Storm/ANT he did a T1 Storm 7 Empty the Warrens. No particular answer to that.
G2 He played land grant then I knew I was wrong about what deck I was playing against. I had a maelstrom pulse ready for his ETW then bam he does a burning wish into dimishing returns. Then came the belcher.

R4 Mono Red Burn
I played B/R Burn when I first played Magic and played MRB when I came back to it.
G1 As soon as I thoughtseized and saw his hand I knew I had a three turn clock. Removed fireblast. I made a mistake by focusing my lightning bolts and punishing fires on his young pyromancers.
G2 Full ****** mode in this game. I kept throwing down my nonbasic lands. So I got set up for a 10 damage PoP.

I dropped after that to play my standard deck. I was expecting to get my ass handed to me by Blue the whole day.

I'm way too used to Magic Online telling me what I can and can't do. I missed/forgot triggers a lot. I need to get more practice in. I had fun and all but to be honest I did get a bit discouraged at times.

GrimLavamancer

11-25-2013, 06:38 PM

@elves:
yes, they are strong, not like we are a bye to them, but, believe me, liliana alone can't save you, we need deluge + liliana to get saved, I say deluge because both shaman and nettle survives golgari charm.
yet a well timed charm, at istant speed can still spell doom to them, sadly, they draw a lot, and so we should need a plague, hell... as you can see, no real answer here, I know a friend of mine told me to run a full set of plagues in the sideboard, and he ran slaughter games too, maybe it's the best idea if elves are a real problem? while we didn't consider running S.G. agains elves...may still be a decent idea on desperation mode.

Problem is, ruric thar, really, I'm glad they think it's not useful... that thing can come down turn three and hardcasted by hand.
Good luck dealing with Ruric on turn three when you are on the draw.
Lili is still in your hand at best, and he has like 4 elves to protect him.
That's mostly game.

LEH

11-25-2013, 08:36 PM

Looking at various Jund builds I came across an interesting list by Brihgton Xenins. Xenins' version runs IoKs instead of Hymns main so I figured I'd see how it ran. Since playing Xenins' I've dropped Hymn to Tourach for Inquisition of Kozilek and I must say I'm liking the change a lot. The problem I found with Hymn was that it was sometimes challenging to hit the double black requirements for the spell. What I like about IoK is that I can firstly pick the spell I want to get rid of and secondly it provides me with useful information about my opponents' plans. While Xenins' version runs Hymns in the SB I have gone for Duress' instead. I find this combination stronger against combo decks and Burn. I'm interested in whether anyone else have tried this change and what their findings on it are.

2Rach

11-25-2013, 10:40 PM

Turn one is the big deal against combo decks imo. You want that turn one discard to slow them down so you can find your bearings, rather than giving them 1-2 turns to one shot you(thinking of storm type of decks). Hymn is great, but if you don't have a good amount of turn one discard, getting to turn 2 or needing 2 black mana can sometimes trip you up. I'd say 6-8 turn one discard is good(after board). That said, Hymn is best for the maindeck, it's just such an amazing general "screw-you" card to almost any deck turn 2. On top of the fact that IOK can't hit a lot of important cards(combo4+, batterskull, NO).

About Elves, you can't just hope to kill all their creatures and win. Either they're to fast, or you don't get the right draws, or any other number of things. You need to be able to stop a topdecked Natural Order, and Grafdigger's Cage is great for that(along with stopping GSZ, and Arbor fetch).

aluisiocsantos

11-26-2013, 04:39 AM

GrimLavamancer

11-26-2013, 05:57 AM

The only relevant pick that IoK can get imo is Show and Tell, so I think even Duress MD is better than that. Besides if you are ging to discard 3 cost cards such as Tarmogoyf, I'm pretty sure Abrupt Decay does the job better by not being countered and with Instant speed.. so I don't think I'll ever support IoK - A.Decay kills what IoK does, in faster speed, while IoK can't solve most of your potential problems you're looking for when discarding.

even true name nemesis?

Running IoK is great and can be a solution, but In my opinion, only if you run something like 4 wasteland maindeck, so you have the power of land destruction, with early discard.

Will this always work? nope, but it can be a meta call:

Burn, Reanimator surely hate a full package of 1 mana discards, so does the nemesis.

aluisiocsantos

11-26-2013, 08:17 AM

TNN is a great point! Depending on how it stays in the meta, I guess I can agree to that!

LEH

11-26-2013, 10:51 AM

I am running 4 x Wasteland and 4 x Thoughtseize and 2 x Maelstrom Pulse main deck too so it's not like I'm AS worried about Natural Order and Batterskull landing as typical Jund - although if they land I'm likely dead, as any Jund player would be. Arguably, IoK helps more against those decks (Elves and Bant) that are running NO than Hymn to Tourach does anyway, although I can see the point, it does miss a lot of stuff.

I also run 4 Duress in my SB (so 12 1cmc discard spells total) which really give me an edge against Combo and Burn, Junds main weakest MUs.

aluisiocsantos

11-27-2013, 07:41 AM

I'm a bit like that too, except for Maelstrom Pulse, which I split between MD and SB, but yeah.

I'm waiting for some ebay cards to arrive, but I wanna try out Xenagos and Toxic Deluge, I haven't played a tourney in a while so I plan on doing it testing those!

razvan

11-27-2013, 01:40 PM

Xenagos is fairly weak for our deck. It puts out an endless stream of 2/2s, but so does Garruk Relentless, who is superior, due to the sniping ability, as well as his entire backside.

In order to use anything other than the 0 ability, you need to use the adding mana ability a few times, and that generally will not do anything. The ultimate is fairly alright, but it needs 4 turns of ramping with no disruption.

I don't like it. It might be better than Koth, but that's about it. Garruk is still better.

Baconus

12-04-2013, 06:49 PM

Water_Wizard

12-04-2013, 08:41 PM

I recently put JUND together after playing JUND NicFit for a while. I like it a lot, especially having threats early and a reasonable clock.

In reading his thread I have seen many people espousing the power of the punishing fire plan, I have found it incredibly slow. Even against decks like elves and merfolk, situations which seem like tailor made for pfire, it never seems good. Am I crazy in wanting to cut the fires/groves for more bolts/ better land base? In the games i have played, every time i draw pfire it never seems good.

It's a meta-decision. Punishing Fire is also very good against Miracles (slow grind - ping them for a point per turn) and against Planeswalkers in general. It's also good against DRS.

The earlier versions of JUND ran 4 Lightning Bolts and Grim Lavamancers. Recently, the Lightning Bolt count and Grim Lavamancers have been exchanged for Punishing Fire.

LEH

12-05-2013, 09:07 AM

I recently put JUND together after playing JUND NicFit for a while. I like it a lot, especially having threats early and a reasonable clock.

In reading his thread I have seen many people espousing the power of the punishing fire plan, I have found it incredibly slow. Even against decks like elves and merfolk, situations which seem like tailor made for pfire, it never seems good. Am I crazy in wanting to cut the fires/groves for more bolts/ better land base? In the games i have played, every time i draw pfire it never seems good.

It is slow, but it is inevitability which is why PF is played. It negates Liliana of the Veil, kills, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, kills nearly all problematic x/1 or x/2 creatures in the format and offers an additional, albeit incredibly slow, win condition. It also, wins Goyf wars too.

In regards to whether or not to run it, it's your call. Lightning Bolt is more damage for less mana but you can't recur it. As for Grove of the Burnwillows effecting the manabase, I've not found it myself. Having them in actually fixes my mana regularly as they offer us access to 2 of our 3 colors anyway, although I do have to give my opponent life from time to time to do so.

rockout

12-05-2013, 10:33 AM

How do you guys board against the True-name nemesis and Stoneforge mystic decks running around all over the place? I can't figure out what to board out. Before true-name, I basically just boarded in a single ancient grudge and maybe a deed/maelstrom pulse and had inevitability for days. Now, I feel like I am just playing to answer True-name or bust. Usually, the first true-name dies to lili, but some combination of golgari charm/deed/plague/reb/pyroblast needs to be added from my sideboard, but what to board out?

My standard decklist:
4 dark confidant
4 deathrite shaman
4 tarmogoyf
3 bloodbraid elf
1 Scavenging ooze/deed/eternal witness/maelstrom pulse - I've been liking ooze a lot lately, but played witness in that slot for many months before getting my fourth lili and was very happy with it all around.

4 liliana of the veil
4 thoughtseize
3 hymn
3 abrupt decay
3 punishing fire
2 lightning bolt
1 life from the loam - This could be a maindeck toxic deluge I guess...Can I run a 5th lili and hope to not get deck checked? :cool:
1 sylvan library

23 Lands are pretty standard. 4 wasteland, 3 grove yadda yadda.

My sideboard at the last scg was:
3 duress
2 mindbreak trap
1 reb
1 pyroblast
1 plague
1 deed
1 golgari charm
1 jitte
1 ancient grudge
1 pyroclasm
1 surgical extraction
1 maelstrom pulse

I'd like to bring in golgari charm, deed, plague and 2 reb effects...

Do I board out hymns? They are typically really good against these type of high impact spell type decks and makes stoneforge typically 1/2 that gets chumped by my goyfs. I guess I don't need the deed most of the time. I think 2 reb 2 golgari charm and dropping the jitte and boarding out 3 hymn 1 life from the loam. Or I could always board out bolt and go -2 bolt -1 loam -1 hymm +2 reb +2 golgari charm and rely more on the punishing fire plan to clean up the other dudes for lili to eat true-names... Thoughts?

If anyone wants to talk privately and in depth about this deck feel free to pm me here. I am pretty open minded about things to try.

razvan

12-05-2013, 11:11 AM

First of all, keep in mind one thing. My suggestions are my suggestions that fit my play-style and my way of playing. Sometimes that will not work for others, so take everything I say with a bit of analysis.

Let's look at your sideboard:

3 duress
2 mindbreak trap
1 reb
1 pyroblast
1 plague
1 deed
1 golgari charm
1 jitte
1 ancient grudge
1 pyroclasm
1 surgical extraction
1 maelstrom pulse

Clearly the cards that are relevant are the 2 REBs, Golgari Charm, Plague, Deed, as well as Grudge/Pulse to take care of equipment. Jitte is there to theoretically race it once it gets going without equipment.

So 5 cards need to go in. I wouldn't bother with Grudge, but Pulse could be alright. Grudge is good, but you would need to take out way too much, and Pulse can hit other things too.

I would take out Life from the Loam and Sylvan Library. It sucks not having Library, but you need space. I would also shave off a bit of discard, maybe cut 1-2 Thoughtseize. Yes, TS can take out Nemesis, but your goal, if you cannot kill it, is to race it with Deathrite Shamans and the like. Drawing a TS when the race is on is a bad deal. Hymn can hit TNN as well, and they are fantastic, so keep those.

So that's 4, and maybe another Thoughtseize for the 5th card. If you really want Maelstrom Pulse, maybe take out a Bolt (HERESY!) or a Punishing Fire. The latter is less heretical, but either way is fine. Punishing Fire, if unchecked, can eventually clean out their board.

Be extremely careful with your Lilianas. Make sure that they hit the board and are able to kill Nemesis.