[Deck] Jund [Archive] - Page 5

Admiral_Arzar

05-27-2014, 12:34 PM

Your graveyard combo match ups are terrible, aren't they? It doesn't sound look like you have much game against them, but your board is better vs fair decks which seems odd to me because the main deck is normally pretty strong against fair decks and the board is what I use to shore up the generally weak combo decks? And besides Liliana, what is your out to big gigantic monsters?

I beat Dredge at the last SCG I attended without actually drawing any hate at all. Tight play and a bit of luck can get you there. Honestly though, there is very little graveyard combo in my meta (or combo at all currently, part of why the Hymns are in the board). I'm more likely to see creature-based combo like Elves or Aluren - there is an occasional High Tide although that is a matchup that I don't worry too much about as it is very unfavorable without the nuts on our part. Thus, sweepers actually double as combo hate - Deed is pretty strong vs. Elves.

On another note, I took my most recent list (I think the sideboard was -1 Revelry +1 Grip or something like that) to another local Power 9 tournament. I ended up at 3-2 finishing 12th. Rounds went like this:

Round 1: Shardless BUG 2-0 (opponent game loss for deckreg error, just ground out game 2 including a Red Blast on Ancestral Visions).

Round 2: RUG Delver 0-2 (mulled for lands in game one, had to keep a two lander and didn't draw out of his LD, game two kept a two lander with Bob and Double Goyf, got blown out by Submerge + Wasteland on turn 2 and then didn't see more lands for 3-4 turns)

Round 3: Affinity 2-0 (this deck is insane against weenie rush strategies like this, especially with postboard Deed)

Round 4: Death and Taxes 1-2 (game 1 I drew 9 extra cards off Bob but they were all lands, lack of business allowed him to stabilize, game 2 I ground him out with massive card advantage, game 3 I lacked removal for an early Mom and stumbled on lands before being overwhelmed with fliers)

Round 5: Jund 2-0 (ground out the mirror with better draws and sideboarding)

My RUG opponent is a buddy of mine who lost the last time we played, so I think I was owed this defeat. Death and Taxes is usually favorable, but sometimes they just build an army too quickly for you to do anything about it/draw sweepers.

WeatherseedMage

05-28-2014, 11:26 PM

I beat Dredge at the last SCG I attended without actually drawing any hate at all. Tight play and a bit of luck can get you there. Honestly though, there is very little graveyard combo in my meta (or combo at all currently, part of why the Hymns are in the board). I'm more likely to see creature-based combo like Elves or Aluren - there is an occasional High Tide although that is a matchup that I don't worry too much about as it is very unfavorable without the nuts on our part. Thus, sweepers actually double as combo hate - Deed is pretty strong vs. Elves.

So if you were to make a sideboard for an SCG Open, trying to account for the combo decks, would you move some number of Hymns back to the main and have graveyard hate in the sideboard or what? Or because you dislike it vs DnT and Delver decks, would you keep it in the board and then make some kind of other cuts and put in graveyard hate?

As far as Graveyard Hate, has anyone played Scavenging Ooze main vs the 4th Tarmogoyf? I don't really like the idea that much, but I am curious about it. It seems very mana intensive, especially on a fairly weak part of our color base.

Is it agreed that some number of Cage and Surgical/Extripate is probably the better configuration than Leylines and Cages? Especially since Surgical/Extripate can grab pieces of Storm combo decks and Cage can stop a Past in Flames kill (though this is an area where I really think that Leyline shines).

aluisiocsantos

05-29-2014, 09:23 AM

I used to run Scavenging Ooze AND 4 tarmos when i started playing jund. Ive seen some guys doing it on tcdecks too, recebtly.. But honestly im not sure if its that helpful in most g1s. That said, it adds up what you said already: mana intensive.

Perhaps if you expect a lot of bugs and rugs, you can disable those enemy tarmogoyfs. I honestly prefer to recurr to it as gy hate only

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Admiral_Arzar

05-29-2014, 09:32 AM

So if you were to make a sideboard for an SCG Open, trying to account for the combo decks, would you move some number of Hymns back to the main and have graveyard hate in the sideboard or what? Or because you dislike it vs DnT and Delver decks, would you keep it in the board and then make some kind of other cuts and put in graveyard hate?

As far as Graveyard Hate, has anyone played Scavenging Ooze main vs the 4th Tarmogoyf? I don't really like the idea that much, but I am curious about it. It seems very mana intensive, especially on a fairly weak part of our color base.

Is it agreed that some number of Cage and Surgical/Extripate is probably the better configuration than Leylines and Cages? Especially since Surgical/Extripate can grab pieces of Storm combo decks and Cage can stop a Past in Flames kill (though this is an area where I really think that Leyline shines).

Nah I played basically the same sideboard at the SCG, but that is my preference. Graveyard combo is not a common matchup. My only combo loss was Spiral Tide which is a brutally bad matchup for this deck regardless. Leylines are bad because they dome you for 4 when flipped off of Bob.

ironclad8690

05-29-2014, 08:22 PM

Death and Taxes is usually favorable, but sometimes they just build an army too quickly for you to do anything about it/draw sweepers.

I have found this matchup got much tougher with the printing of TNN and the re-addition of cards like Serra Avenger & Brimaz.

Jund can definitely feel clunky mana-wise as well, and I can see why you would run so many basics. In the Semifinals of SCG Seattle, there is a great match between Rob Hunsaker (Jund) and David Bauman (Death and Taxes), and it is a great example of how Death and Taxes can beat our deck on the mana denial route.

Dice_Box

05-29-2014, 08:26 PM

To beat Hatebears in Modern we run Anger of the Gods. I think if DNT became an almighty hell to deal with, Massacre might become more common as a sideboard item to stop them. Other than that, just play smart and remove there problem cards. We have to have some of the highest concentration of removal of any deck in the format.

aluisiocsantos

06-02-2014, 09:38 AM

Yeha, I faced some Serra Avengers this weekend. Tough.

In fact, here's a report!
I played a side-event at GP São Paulo (trio sealed was the main event), with 148 players. Ended in 39. Not bad, not good either haha!

The list. I loved the approach with IoK in the main and Hymn in the side Admiral Arzar posted so here it it

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Thoughtseize
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library

4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
1 Swamp

Sideboard

2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Golgari Charm
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pernicious Deed

To the matches!

Round 1: Silva - Punishing Jund - Mirror!
G1: He starts, I think, and plays Shaman. I thoughtseize him and find I think 3 more lands, BBE and Bob. I take out BBE, and have a hand filled with removals, so i keep killing his things and eventually win.
Sideboard: +1 Chains of Mephistopheles (this never showed up in my hand in the entire tourney, while they showed up EVERYTIME the other day I played Loam), +1 Jitte, +1 Ooze. -Sylvan Library, -1 Thoughtseize. I go with 61 (I did this a lot through the tourney) cards.
G2 is the opposite, I keep a hand with Bob, Shaman and Goyf and he has answers for all those and beat me down.
G3 was a supe rboring game in which nobody got to have things on the board due to both of us having PFire and Grove online but he has Sylvan Library which was tough. To my luck, he took 4 damage for extra draws twice, which along with my EOT 1 dmg point, let me deal 6 damage in a turn after i do double punishing fire + bolt and win. 1-0-0

Round 2: Tiago - Death and Taxes
G1: My opponent keeps a poor hand for a deck with so many removals such as jund, but I don't blame him for being a G1. I thoughseize and find Mother, SotLabyrinth, SFM and 4 other lands, I take out Mother and proceed to remove everything else after they are played. Goyfing without looking back.
Sideboard: +Jitte, +2 Hymn to Tourach, +2 Ancient Grudge, -2 Thoughtseize -1 IOK, -1 Punishing Fire. I cant rememebr if it was it but i rmeember it was around 5 cards. Maybe it was 1 TS and -1 Grove.
G2: It's a very fair match until I'm like down to 7 HP and have 2 goyfs at 5/6 and he has 10 hp..and Thalia + Karakas and Flickerwisp. Thalia has pretty much hold my game for most part this match. But yeah, he topdecks Rest in Peace and my goyfs go from heroes to zeroes.
I go back to sideboard and trade the Hymns for Golgari Charms.
G3: I can't remember much except that he basically opens up again with Thalia + Karakas, but this time it was quick enought that I was able to save the opening hand Wasteland for it, and then I prompt to kill her, so my game went smooth afterwards. 2-0-0

Round 3: Jean - Death and Taxes again.
G1: it was a pretty fair game, but after he gets to turn 4 he starts playing Serra Avengers and I get no outs.
I sideboard pretty much like I did in g3 last game.
G2: Okay, I open with a hand with just a wasteland and a fetch, Deathrite, two Lilianas, Maelstrom Pulse, Ancient Grudge. Not bad, except for the frail mana - If I don't draw any other lands I'm screwed. I play Fetch into Swamp, DRS. His turn he doesnt STP and I'm like YAY! i promptly remove my fetchland, play Wasteland and Liliana. Discard plz. he goes "okay" and discards Wilt Leaf Liege and I'm like O_O. Felt so much like I was playing agains Sneak Show, haha. His turn he kills Lily AND plays revoker naming guess what, Liliana. I never draw the extra land to kill Wilt Leaf with Pulse and I die.
2-1-0

Round 4: Renan - Reanimator
G1: I'm on the draw and I try discarding, he hides stuff with brainstorm and gives me a hand with Ponder I think, and three FOW. He quickly combos into that flying thing in which whenever he plays a speel, he returns a permanent to my hand. I have 3 mana on the battlefield, PFire, Lightning Bolt and liliana in my hand, so first I try killing it with burn, to which he spends two of his fow. The next turn he Brainstorms and returns one of my lands. I play land and Liliana the next turn and he can't counter it. From then on I just finish him.
Sideboard: +1 Diabolic Edict, Grafdiggers Cage, Ooze, Chains of Mephistopheles, Surgical Extraction. -2 Punishing Fire, -2 Grove of Burnwillows, Sylvan Library.
G2: He very quickly combos into Sphinx of Steel Wind, but I quickly answers into Diabolic Edict and he goes sad face not for long. Next turn I Thoughtseize him to find a hand filled with creatures and a reanimating spell, which becomes the target. However the following turn he topdraws Show and Tell and plays Griselbrand. From then on I can never land a Lily and its game.
G3: I open a hand with a couple lands, beaters, Deathrite Shaman, Grafdigger's Cage and Thoughtseize. At first I'm in doubt as to what to play, and he bluffs into "ok, ok, just play deathrite and go" which leads me to play Thoughtseize and find in his hand City of Traitors, Petal, Show and Tell and Griselbrand, and I simply laugh ha. He gets no outs for the rest of the game. I play my gravehate next turn and he goes Engineered Explosives to One and detonates it straight away, but i draw a Scavenging Ooze and he gives up. 3-1-0

Round 5: Guilherme - Burn. From here on things get sticky.
G1: I just get BBQed.
Sideboard: -4 Bob. +2 Hymn to Tourach, +Ooze, +Jitte
G2: I manage play a goyf wall for his guides, and discard diruption takes a Price and lands form his hand, and I eventually win.
G3 introduced me to Burns newest friend, the Eidolon. The match goes fairly good with him on 8 Hp with an Eidolon, and me with a 5/6 goyf (due to another killed eidolon) and 5 HP. I'm stuck between waiting for a BBE to beat him or killing his eidolon with a Maelstrom Pulse and praying for the best.. which I do and go to 3 hp. He drawns a rift bolt and I'm burnt. 3-2-0

Since it's 8 rounds and the prize is up to top 32, I keep on.

Round 6: Talles - Show and Tell, yay!
G1: I open with IoK and open his hand with 2 Sneak Attacks, 1 Show and tell, 2 Griselbrands and 2 lands. I take Show and Tell out but I know i have the clock ticking for me. I manage to beat him down to 8 HP and when i get the second goyf to do the job he gets another Show and Tell and it's game.
Sideboard: +2 Hymn to Tourach, +2 Golgari Charm, +Surgical Extraction, +2 Rebs, +Chains +Diabolic Edict. -3 BBE (the logic for it was that I first must focus the amount of hate in my hand instead of believing I'm going to live 4 turns to play BBE), -3 Punishing Fire, -3 Grove.
G2: I can't remember my turn one play, but I remmeber I have surgical extraction in my hand, and he combos into emrakul with Sneak Attack quick enough to just destroy a single land i have in game.. But when Emrakul lands in the GY, I SExtraction him, and that leaves me to 3 hp and him to just 4 cards in the library that can kill me. It never happens and I win the game eventually.
G3: he goes land, Sensei top and go. I go Thoughtseize on him, and he hides stuff with brainstorm before lending me a hand with 2 Echoing truth, Gitaxian Probe and 2 Lands. I take Probe out. he draws, play land and pass. I play IoK and take out a Show and Tell out of his hand. He passes again, and I play a seocnd ioK for a second Show and tell! Dang! he passes again, and I draw and play Surgical Extraction targetting Show and tell and guess what? One in his hand and one on the top!! I actually burst out a laugh and he becomes a sad sad bear. However, my deck didn't help enough that no beaters ever came except for a Bob, which later on got Echoed back to my hand twice and we ended up on a draw. Sigh! 3-2-1

Round 7: Daniel - UW Miracles.
G1 was pretty straight up. He played rest in peace and then tutored for a Helm of Obedience. gg
Sideboard: +2 Rebs, 2 Golgari Charm, Chains of Mephistopheles (GAH why don't you even show up??), Pernicious Deed, Ancient Grudge, 2 Hymn to Tourach. -Punishing Fire suite, -1 Goyf, -Sylvan Library.
G2 let me effectivelly discard counterbalances and even Entreat the Angels thanks for hymn to tourach. He had several removals but not enough for 3 consecutive bobs. He does play Humility, but I Golgari Charm it the following turn. i manage to win.
G3 was a sad piece of story in which nobody ever had anything on board. He gets Countertop engine online, then doesn't due to A.Decay, I can't beat him with goyfs because he plays Rest in Peace. I get Liliana but I can't make an ultimate due to him playing Leyline of Sanctity, and etc. Miracles Shenaningans. The true star is BBE, which gets countered by a second Counterbalance with another Leyline on the top.. however it cascades into Golgari Charm, which destroys the one he has in play, and I manage to ultimate Liliana into a pile with CB and 3 plains, or a pile with 3 islands and RIP. He choses the latter. The game goes meh and eh.. I manage to destroy his RIP, and I keep draining his HP with a lucky Shaman that ends up alive and beating 2 hp per turn, until round time's up. He's 7 HP and we're in the 5 turns. I draw a tarmogoyf in the first turn of it, which WOULD give me the victory but he uses a fetch land, and topdecks Terminus. SIGH. 3-2-2

At this point I just play the last round because I'm there. However my opponent had dropped and didn't warn anyone, so I win by W.O. lol and end up 4-2-2 at 39th place. Fun times! Even though the result was subpar, I loved the deck with IoK, and shall continue to test on it.

razvan

06-02-2014, 03:48 PM

I am not sure why you brought in Chains of Mephistopheles against Jund? To stop the one-of Sylvan Library?

aluisiocsantos

06-02-2014, 03:51 PM

Haha, maybe it was silly of me but yes. I mean, I've done it before with a BG at another time, but I know it's just so random, even though if it DID had come to me G3 it would make my life less miserable, while if it was Sylvan Library instead both of us would be topdecking.

WeatherseedMage

06-02-2014, 05:27 PM

In the mirror, as excited as I am to own and play my copy of Chains, I think that Library is the strictly better card. If they don't have their own Library, then you are up on cards. If they do have a Library then you are at parity.

Why did you kill the Eidolon in that situation? Just to attack later? Being at 4 or less is very dangerous vs burn as it makes most of their spells very live. Nonetheless, I think there are certainly lots of reasons to take that line, so it's too bad that it didn't work out.

aluisiocsantos

06-02-2014, 05:48 PM

Yeah, basically. The other option would be waiting for BBE to show up, or Ooze, while he just wait for two more burn spells, so I tried gambling instead at him drawig nothing for two turns.

WeatherseedMage

06-04-2014, 12:30 AM

I played an event tonight

Rd 1 vs Elves
g1: I get turn 3ed after Wastelanding a Dryad Arbor, next turn he plays another one and a Birchlore Ranger and goes hard mode.
g2: Play Bob on t2, he abrupt decays it and is sad on t3 when I play engineered plague
g3: opponent mulls to 5 and is on the play, but a thoughtseize on t1 gets something, he plays a non cradle land and then hymn to tourach gets the other two cards. That's pretty much it and no nature spirits live long that game.

Rd 2 vs Dredge
g1: I get turn 3ed, it happens
g2: I get a DRS/Thoughtseize/IoK hand. I lead with IoK and he kept a shaky hand so I take the only enabler. Next turn I play DRS, get around to Thoughtseizing after a few more turns and take an Ichorid and remove it with DRS. He scoops it up after a few more creatures come down.
g3: opponent mulls to 4 IRC, i t1 a cage and t2 a DRS, creature beats incoming. he is done

Rd 3 vs Shardless Bug
g1: out card advantaged. not sure if i made any real errors, but he drew many more and much better cards than i did.
g2: i lost because I played a Bob vs holding up mana to pay for a spell pierce on pyroblast targeting a ticking down ancestral visions (when it was on the stack). Silly mistake, but that's what happens. Then he had enough cards and got there.

I find the Shardless matchup really tough. How does it go for others? And how do you guys approach the match up and try to fight them?

aluisiocsantos

06-04-2014, 10:42 AM

Pretty nice, good job beating Elves!

I dunno, I think the biggest secret for beating Shardless is not letting them cast Ancestral Visions. It's really terrible for us even if we can consistently build up card advantage with Punishing Fire (Most of their things die to it, except for Tarmogoyf) and Hymn to Tourach. So I guess try getting ahold of Pyroblasts ready when the spell comes down, and hold it in your hand when they hit 3 manas too since they can cast Shardless Agent and cascade into it, which is even worse. I like mass removals in this matchup too, such as Deeds, even if they play Toxic Deluge, if they manage to buy 3 cards that means theyll flood the board with Strix and everything else, so it's a nice little last resort which has saved my ass a few times.

Neffy

06-07-2014, 07:34 AM

I find the Shardless matchup really tough. How does it go for others? And how do you guys approach the match up and try to fight them?

This is where Chains of Meph. becomes really good. Choke and blood moon also screws them over. I play 1 of each in the board (3 basics myself) and should do the trick. Moon also stops potential Creeping Tar Pits!

Nuke is Good

06-07-2014, 09:27 AM

I played an event tonight
Rd 3 vs Shardless Bug
g1: out card advantaged. not sure if i made any real errors, but he drew many more and much better cards than i did.
g2: i lost because I played a Bob vs holding up mana to pay for a spell pierce on pyroblast targeting a ticking down ancestral visions (when it was on the stack). Silly mistake, but that's what happens. Then he had enough cards and got there.

I find the Shardless matchup really tough. How does it go for others? And how do you guys approach the match up and try to fight them?

I practiced against my friend that played shardless before. It's a pretty even matchup. Choke helps but it is subject to abrupt decay so it stalls a turn or two especially if they have a DRS in play, get rid of the deathrite shaman and you're golden. I side out like 2 of my BBE's in favor of pyroblasts and try to play more aggressively than them and that works a good amount for me.

Also, I love the punishing fire package for this.

dsck

06-07-2014, 10:12 AM

g2: i lost because I played a Bob vs holding up mana to pay for a spell pierce on pyroblast targeting a ticking down ancestral visions (when it was on the stack). Silly mistake, but that's what happens. Then he had enough cards and got there.

I would not expect spell pierce from shardless bug (its horrible to cascade into) so I dont think that was a misplay.

aluisiocsantos

06-08-2014, 02:42 PM

Yeah, if you have access to Chain of mephisto, I board them against every single blue deck. And Elves. And in shardless bug it totally breaks their biggest trumph: Ancestral Visions.

WeatherseedMage

06-09-2014, 01:56 AM

This is where Chains of Meph. becomes really good. Choke and blood moon also screws them over. I play 1 of each in the board (3 basics myself) and should do the trick. Moon also stops potential Creeping Tar Pits!

Blood Moon seems really sketchy because it's so good AGAINST us, you must have warped your mana base to be able to include it, right? Choke does seem pretty good, I might have to relook at it as I think it helps out other combo matches as well.

I would not expect Spell Pierce from shardless bug (its horrible to cascade into) so I dont think that was a misplay.

Thanks man.

aluisiocsantos, Chains is good against most blue decks but vs Miracles, you should keep in Sylvan Library. They don't dig as much with actual cantrips but more with just rearranging the top. Elves, it seems fine to board it in against as well.

After playing more games with Surgical Extraction, I really like it. I played another weekly,

rd1: Pox Loam
g1 I lose to depths+stage
g2 I actually am able to grind him out with a critical thoughtseize into double goyf two turn sequence.
g3 He faithless lootings and pitches two life from the loam. I have surgical and I slam it when he passes the turn, tapped out still. I win from there, really.

rd2: OmniTell
g1: He wins fast, like t2 or t3
g2: I resolve Chains and we play for another few turns and he gives up
g3: I surgically extracted something I think, but I forget what it was and I get there.

rd3: RUG Delver
this whole match up was really sweet, very intricate and something I actually don't get to play very often
g1 I won through attrition. I was able to play around stifle at first, he had to reveal it, so then I was able to get through other removal.
g2: i mulled a hand I probably shouldn't have (it was one nonbasic and 2 drs and some other stuff, to be fair) and kept a 2 land, 1 drs and other things hand. Didn't get rewarded and got land locked out.
g3: Super close, but it was a few days ago so I have forgotten most things. I REBed a Brainstorm though and made him use a daze to let it resolve, that felt good. He was obviously digging, so that seemed right to me.

and that was it, 3-0 a weekly.

Dice_Box

06-09-2014, 11:21 AM

Question, would it be worth running two Chains of Mephistopheles in the side? I am going to be grabbing one next week, but spending so much on a one off that I may never see feels silly. Maybe I am over thinking it buy would not two be more impactful?

aluisiocsantos

06-09-2014, 11:56 AM

My brother keeps bothering me to get a second copy. Depends really on your deck's configuration. It's a backwards Sylvan Library. So, do you run 2 Sylvans? If so, I'm totally onboard of it. Considering Chains is the best sideboard card ever made, it still implies a few issues the way I see: Jund's sideboard usually addresses some direct effects, like actual artifact destruction, responses to TNN, extra discard vs combo, board swipers. Chains does none of those, but it stops every draw engine, which is why it's a perfect replacement for Sylvan Library (I'd say it's not maindeck material because it's useless vs non-blue decks in general), which is generally a one of. One Chains in the side? No big deal. A second one? You start reducing actual answers for Jund problems. So I'd say, go for it if you run two Sylvan Librarys, for sure.

Talking about Sylvan Library reminded me also for the reason people stopped running two libraries: It's a terrible/useless in multiples - like drawing a second one with one in play. I guess the same applies to Chains.

Dice_Box

06-09-2014, 12:05 PM

I was thinking that. Personally I feel that while drawing multiple Library stunts your tempo, drawing Chains hits them so hard that getting it faster is worth the risk.

Edit: To answer your question, yes I run two Library. I just think that in the matches it shines you want it as fast as you can get it and in the matches it drags, well I have never minded feeding Lili. Also, Confidant and Library is so very good. Fliped 6 lands and a Thoughtseize one game. Guy fliped me the bird.

Shit, just saw, Chains stack. Ouch.

WeatherseedMage

06-09-2014, 09:35 PM

So chains is awesome and a second one would be good, especially if you expect a combo heavy field (ie a lot of cantrip decks). As a one of, it is hard to find, but it is so impactful that it is generally worth it even if it's not in your opener. A second wouldn't be bad, but it is certainly diminishing returns.

I only run one Sylvan Library and the one Chains

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aluisiocsantos

06-10-2014, 08:01 AM

Wait, so do two Chains actually stack? Isn't it a replacement effect? So one would replace another and just one take effect?

WeatherseedMage

06-10-2014, 09:59 AM

Dice_Box

06-10-2014, 10:28 AM

I didn't mean to imply that. Two Chains on the board does nothing more for you, but the second one increases your chance of drawing it by something like 10 to 15% I think (though I don't have the right number off the top of my head).

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They do do more for you:

The effect is cumulative. If there are two of these on the battlefield, each of them will modify each draw (after the first one if during the draw step), and will cause the player to discard or to "mill" a card from their library. As they resolve in order, the player must discard if possible. Once the player fails to discard and instead "mills" a card, all further effects of additional Chains of Mephistopheles will not do anything. This is because the "mill" also replaces the draw effect and the player is no longer drawing a card. You handle them in order. Each one makes you discard first and then continue or else mill a card and lose the draw.

So they all replace, but they stack, one Chains fires first, resolves, then the other fires.

Also, went 3-1 tonight. Had this sick play. I have a BBE in hand, I am on five life against 3 TNN game 2. I have a Library on the table and I have just cracked a fetch. 3 new cards. I look at them and I have a Bob, Decay and Grove. So I take 4 damage, draw the Bob and Decay, play the Elf and spin into.... Charm. Hell yea. So charm on stack, Dispel. Well, hay it was fun while it lasted.

Won game 3 by a mile though.

WeatherseedMage

06-10-2014, 10:38 AM

They do do more for you:

So they all replace, but they stack, one Chains fires first, resolves, then the other fires.

That's awesome and really good to know. So the discard doubles up and then the mill stays the same. Nifty.

Congrats on 3-1. :)

aluisiocsantos

06-10-2014, 10:45 AM

Way to make Chains rulings even more complicated :))

Dice_Box

06-10-2014, 10:48 AM

I know right. I tried to explain to my wife why I wanted the more expensive English versions of the card. She told me no, I asked her to please then explain how the card worked after I handed her my phone with it on screen. I asked if making them Italian would make explaining them to someone easier. Needless to say, I get my English chains. Both of them.

aluisiocsantos

06-10-2014, 10:53 AM

Mine is italian, so generally people have judges come to my table haha.

WeatherseedMage

06-11-2014, 05:20 PM

That's hilarious that she fell for that. The English wording barely matches the oracle text and people need a judge to explain it no matter what lol

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Punish Foolz

06-12-2014, 12:29 AM

Hey guys. Posted a tournament report of an iq I won with jund. Would appreciate some thoughts or feedback. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28164-What-to-expect-when-you-re-junding-First-place-with-Jund

Megadeus

06-12-2014, 12:38 AM

Talking about Sylvan Library reminded me also for the reason people stopped running two libraries: It's a terrible/useless in multiples - like drawing a second one with one in play. I guess the same applies to Chains.
Question, what has to go wrong for you to draw the second one if you already have one in play? At worst you float it at the top for a turn or two until you find a shuffle effect.

aluisiocsantos

06-12-2014, 12:51 AM

I'd probably prefer if it was an Abrupt Decay or something like that. Not a card that does 0 right now. You're right about waitong for shuffling, but it doesn't change the fact ita a terrible top draw

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Dice_Box

06-12-2014, 02:18 AM

If you have one on the table and see another on the top of your Library, it only becomes an issue once your trying to Cascade. Until that point, its just a card you don't need to draw. If you find a way to shuffle, cool, if not, well it's not the biggest issue ever.

I would never run 3 Library, I on the other hand would never go under 2 in anything that is not a Combo heavy Meta.

Punish Foolz

06-23-2014, 11:53 PM

Okay guys, does anyone have any idea why all of the jund decks on the open series playing Taiga and basic mountain. I would love to hear just one good reason to run either in a deck that already has 7 red sources and only 8 spells that need red but has 7 double black spells and only 6 black sources.

aluisiocsantos

06-24-2014, 12:54 PM

I have no idea why is the mountain there but I like myself running one taiga. It's a fetchland-able land that's exactly like Grove. Sometimes you open hands with tarmogoyf and burn spells, for example, and tutoring for such a land would solve your life. Say, like, using a BG fetchland for a basic swamp, and then the second one for Taiga, isntead of waiting for a Grove to pop up.

Dice_Box

06-25-2014, 09:49 AM

The Taiga is fetchable and the Mountain gives you protection from Wasteland. Both I have zero interest in running right now.

Punish Foolz

06-26-2014, 08:15 AM

To each his own I guess, I think the damage it causes to the mana base isn't worth it. You only need 1 red mana in your good match ups but you want zero red mana in the unfavorable matchups until you board into pyroblast. I think running taiga in this deck is exactly what Gerry Thompson preaches about trying to make your mana too good

aluisiocsantos

06-26-2014, 08:23 AM

That said, with Taiga I can't recall the last time I ever has trouble with mana. And your opponent will also always assume you don't have Taigas either.

Punish Foolz

06-29-2014, 12:14 PM

How many lands do you play?

aluisiocsantos

06-29-2014, 05:34 PM

24!
4 wasteland
1 forest
1 swamp
4 bloodstained mire
4 verdant catacombs
1 wooded foothills
2 badlands
3 bayou
1 taiga
3 grove of the burnwillows!

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iamajellydonut

06-30-2014, 10:33 AM

Quick question:

At the last SCG and now at an event more recently, I've gotten the bejesus slapped out of me by 12Post. I mean, I've demolished them with perfect games as well, but I get scared every time I go against these simply because I feel like it's an enormous gamble.

In short, what the fuck do we do against Lands and Co.?

aluisiocsantos

06-30-2014, 11:21 AM

There aren't many MUD in my meta, but as far as Lands go I think it's a tricky one, you gotta stick to your guns, say like, leave DRS up waiting for him to dredge it so you can respond to it, which is never a certain thing if he has extra cycle lands. Also save your wastelands for Thespian Stage/Dark Depths.

But really, if you can't get rid of Life from the Loam, it's gonna be sticky for you. Surgical Extraction is a must in your side if this matchup is constant in your meta.

Ooze is also a baller, and can contour the situation, say, you can wasteland + ooze remove those problem lands. The good thing about ooze is circunventing the cycle lands issue.

iamajellydonut

06-30-2014, 02:14 PM

I don't know why I listed 43Lands in that post (or why you listed MUD in yours). Maybe because I got smashed by it at SCG and because it has "Lands" in the title and maybe because I'm at work, but the truth of it is that 43Lands isn't really the issue. Yes, I'm still scared of it and it can get even scarier if it shocks game one away, but the real problem is the one you didn't list any solutions for.

12Post is a dick. It's tough to race. It's tough to hate. It's just tough. The only commonplace option I see is is burning their hand to the ground as fast as possible and racing them. Surgically Extract neat things. Ancient Grudge less neat things. Hopefully see Wasteland. Hopefully see and cast Hymn to Tourach. But that's quite a feat to accomplish, and they can still go into topdeck mode for a win.

aluisiocsantos

06-30-2014, 05:50 PM

Haha, sorry, it's the mention os 12 posts and current mud manabase. though it doesn't change there isnt much 12post players around here.
I take the match is really tough, more dependant on top draws.. like, everything we have is effective, but not destructive enough. Likewise, anything they can do is quick enough to demolish Jund.. I haven't ever got a jund match vs 12 post though, so I dunno how i'd react, but you pretty much described the most probable way. I think Liliana could do some work too - but that's just her doing her job.

Punish Foolz

06-30-2014, 06:57 PM

I would encourage you to try cutting a wasteland for a badlands. 9 lands that don't produce black is asking for mana issues trying to cast hymn or liliana. Especially hymn since it's more powerful the sooner you cast it. Not to mention that the wastelands don't cast DRS.

On the subject of lands, I board out hymns and decays first and bring in 2 ensnaring bridge, 1 Nihil spellbomb, 1 pithing needle, and 2 Surgical extraction. You can't respond to the dredge though, you have to call them on their draw because it's a replacement effect. If you extract loam it's pretty much gg. Needle on thespians stage is also good and spellbomb can be a haymaker. Bridges just stop them if they go off.

Dice_Box

06-30-2014, 11:18 PM

I would not cut a Wasteland for any other land. They are just too dam useful.

Personally I have had no issues with 12 post. There are a few people around here that play it and I don't have many issues with it.

Punish Foolz

07-01-2014, 06:48 AM

I would not cut a Wasteland for any otherh land. They are just too dam useful.

Personally I have had no issues with 12 post. There are a few people aeveryround here that play it and I don't have many issues with it.

I'm not sure how many you play, but I was referring to the previous post listing 4 wasteland. Wasteland is great but you're also using it as a mana source more than nearly any other deck in legacy. Sometimes you get the free wins with it but you're trying to cast 3 and 4 drops and it's hard to do that when you're wasting them.

Wasteland is such a staple in legacy that people just jam 4 automatically and I think that idea should at least be challenged rather than blindly accepted. Look at rug delver, that deck needs 4 wasteland because it ties in with the rest of the decks game plan.

I play 3 because I would have to cut a Grove to play the 4th wasteland and i need a grove much more often.

aluisiocsantos

07-01-2014, 07:48 AM

iamajellydonut

07-01-2014, 12:00 PM

His count is correct. He said 9 sources that do not produce black, not whatever you're thinking.

4 Wasteland
3 Grove of the Burnwillow
1Taiga
1Forest

Nine lands that cannot produce black. That being said, I am not overly opposed to running 4xWasteland (I actually run 4 -_-), but I do agree that it is not something to be done without a considerable amount of thought.

firebadmattgood

07-01-2014, 12:15 PM

leave DRS up waiting for him to dredge it so you can respond to it

This doesn't work. You can't respond to a dredge, as it's a replacement effect applied at the time another ability is resolving.

aluisiocsantos

07-01-2014, 12:25 PM

Ops, my bad. I guess you can still respond to people trying to cycle lands :)

WeatherseedMage

07-04-2014, 09:48 AM

I am going to try switching out my 2x ancient grudge into 2x null rod and then make my jitte and e plague into 2x choke for my sideboard. Thoughts?

I also am switching my Taiga to the 4th grove. I never search up Taiga, but grove is generally dealt with on sight. I think early on I saw too many groves and it made me want to cut them, but we'll see. The discussion on black mana is something I agree with though, so if I change from here I will probably turn it into a Badlands.

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iamajellydonut

07-04-2014, 01:07 PM

I think early on I saw too many groves and it made me want to cut them, but we'll see.

This shouldn't ever really be seen as a problem. Yeah, it can stink when you see like fourteen Groves in a row and they all end up, effectively, as Taigas, but it's more important that you actually see Grove. Otherwise you're stuck with overcosted Shocks instead of literally one of the best combos in the game. Punishing Fire and, to a lesser extent IMO, Bloodbraid Elf are the only reason Jund is Jund instead of something like BUG or The Rock. They give that grinding edge and are well worth any trouble.

As far as Null Rod, I guess it works. There's a bazillion things you can do for artifact hate. I personally prefer Ancient Grudge or a combination of Ancient Grudge and Null Rod because, while not as much of a blanket effect, Ancient Grudge is absolutely surgical, deals with problems permanently and is not susceptible to
things like Abrupt Decay, and provides silly value against things like Shardless BUG for no apparent reason.

Choke I'm honestly not a fan of, but that could be just me. Usage is narrow. Too many holes. Not a hard lock. Must be perfectly timed in order to have a dramatic effect. Isn't useful against decks we have problems with. Etc.

WeatherseedMage

07-07-2014, 01:04 PM

Sure but when you're new to the deck you make some mistakes. I was also seduced by the opportunity to use another dual land I own and the mana fixing.

I like the idea of Ancient Grudge because it kills multiple artifacts and gives you game against other decks - MUD, for example, is a challenging match up that I think would be better because of Null Rod. The other pro is that it isn't graveyard reliant, and g2/g3 we can expect a lot of gy hate from any deck. You're just trading one removal for another - gy hate vs abrupt decay.

Choke is maybe possibly not shitty vs Sneak and Show, but I'm not sure. That match up is atrocious and everywhere though, so I want to have some more cards against them. On the play, it's something to slam on t2 with a DRS. Show and Tell puts it in, maybe we have a turn for a sac effect then. It was suggested for that and it may not hold water, but I am going to try it out. It also is helpful against Shardless BUG, especially if you can wasteland a key land.

The issue I have with Choke is that things need to go right. The thing I like about it is that it's a card I can put in where before I was looking for anything against certain decks.

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aluisiocsantos

07-07-2014, 01:40 PM

WeatherseedMage

07-07-2014, 02:12 PM

I just imagine that they are boarding in leyline of sanctity and want to have a threat to them that isn't kolded by that. Maybe 4x surgical is better though.

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bryanzoll

07-07-2014, 02:28 PM

Hey all,

I have played Jund twice now (with zero practicing) involved at 2 SCG legacy opens and went 5-3 1st swing around and 3-3 yesterday. I'm going to be making Jund my #1 deck for a while.

I don't have a full or detailed tournament report from yesterday, but here is what I faced:

2-0 GB/x Rock
2-0 Shardless BUG
1-2 DeathBlade (Erik Smith)
2-0 UWR Delver
0-2 MUDpost
1-2 Burn

My losses were for the following reasons:
DeathBlade - I was on the draw game 3 and mulled to 5, and I just buckled to a turn 2 TNN
MUDpost - Seriously...wtf...got absolutely blown out, turn 1 chalice on 1 just crippled me. I brought in Null Rod / Ancient Grudge and saw neither of them
Burn - Let me say that I did not lose to burn...I lost to Sulfuric Vortex. My burn opponent had no cards in hand come turn 3 each game due to duress / thoughtseize, liliana and extirpates and he top decked vortex in both situations when he was ahead on life. I failed to find either a fetch land or a business spell for 6 turns both games. I ultimated liliana both games and gave him either lands or vortex, and he chose vortex both games...

All in all the deck was great and easy to play. I would say that having chains in the sideboard would be a huge help in general as there are tons of decks playing blue spells (in elves case green).

ironclad8690

07-07-2014, 03:17 PM

I think Choke is a better response vs fair decks than sneak show, specially since while it CAN hit them they can also just play Petal + Sol land and cast Show and Tell. It's not really a hard answer.
Not only that, if you manage to win a game (likely game 2) using Choke, it's likely he will play around it, even though that will also probably be a much slower game for him but still..

In a report I posted a few replies back I posted a match against it, and more discards worked well for me as well as Surgical Extraction supporting them.

On the manabase discussion, what setup you guys think is the best, and why?

As someone who just tested many versions of this deck/manabases, I'd have to say my favorite configuration is:

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest

For the punishing version of course. I tried out going to 3 Groves and a Taiga, but I found it did not help me as much as I thought it would. I have also tried 2 swamps and 1 forest, cutting a fetchland; but it barely helped in the Blood Moon matchups and 1 Swamp 1 Forest is fine vs the back to basics decks.

With the above configuration, I find that I am often able to cast my punishing fires and recur them pretty consistently, which is my largest draw to the deck right now. Sometimes it sucks having to hold up wastelanding them to cast your bloodbraid (they usually read that there is a BBE in your hand when you do that), but it is a necessary evil.

I'd be interested to hear what others think as well.

Dice_Box

07-07-2014, 03:35 PM

My mana base is almost exactly the same. The difference is -1 Bloodstained, +1 Wasteland. I love it.

Edit.
On holding up Wasteland. Unless you really need to press an advantage, you should not be wasting early. The deck is hungry, feed it. Then use waste later to push them off key colours or punish bad plays. (Like wasting fetches with a top in the top of the library.)

Neffy

07-07-2014, 04:56 PM

Im running this mana base:

2 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Verdant C.
3 Bloodstained M.
2 Marsh F.
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Waste
3 Grove

The worst case scenario for me is drawing waste + forest, waste+grove or forest+grove. I am NOT losing because of opponent wasting me so I always fetch turn 1 swamp. The extra swamp has also proved to be invaluable with better starting 7s against Painter or moon effects and generally helps me reach the 4 mana point faster.
I think 3 groves are enough, as i dont want to see more than max 3 (if one is wasted, 2 is just perfect).

Dice_Box

07-07-2014, 05:27 PM

How many punishing do you run and do you have Loam sided? I personally would always run one less punishing than the number of Grove that I have. Punishing on its own is not very effective and I would rather that slot open of I am reducing the effectiveness of my engine. Make the rest of the deck run smoother to make up for the lowered reliability of Punishing Grove.

ironclad8690

07-08-2014, 02:11 PM

I got 2nd in a small 8 man yesterday. I had been playing Junk and Team Italia because Jund wasn't being kind to me, but I decided to switch back and was pleasantly rewarded with store credit.

Round 1: Unintentionally drew with Death and Taxes. I got punishing grove online early, but he was able to get a brimaz equipped with batterskull. game ended with both of us at high life totals.

Round 2: Stomped Merfolk because he drew very poorly and I drew very well. He never did play a true name nemesis, which was great for me because I never drew golgari charm or Liliana.

Round 3: Beat Shardless BUG in a convincing fashion. I drew very well again, and pretty much always beat him by the time he could recover from bloodbraids and hymns.

My list is almost exactly the same as Zach Murray's from SCG Portland, but with slightly different sideboard cards and manabase (he plays 9 fetchlands for the ability to play another Bayou).

Whitefaces

07-11-2014, 07:23 AM

Hey all,

I used to lurk for a while then dropped off, but I'd like to get a bit involved here. Jund is my go to deck and I've been experimenting with it a lot. My meta is comprised of more fair decks than combo, so it is a little geared towards that though isn't ignoring combo by any means.

First off, the mana base. I feel like this is one of junds weakest points, so something of the utmost importance. After testing both, I will never (ever) play a forest or a Taiga in the maindeck, they are just so awkward. Liliana is the best card in the deck hands down, and Jund uses her better than any other deck. Because of that, it is imperative to have the double black on time, be it T2 off DRS or a natural T3. Similar story for Hymn.

Here is what I have at the moment.

3 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
10 Black Fetches (4 delta, 4 catacombs, 2 mire atm)

Jund is such a proactive deck, having 6 fetchable lands vs 10 fetches isn't as bad as it can be in decks like controlling BUG builds and miracles. There is an argument to having a third Bayou over another fetch, but having the right colours at the right time to sequence your spells properly is just so important I can't stress it enough.

This is a standard MD I had for a while

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Liliana of the Veil

1 Sylvan Library
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstorm Pulse

It's a strong maindeck, but just seems quite clunky so I knew I wanted some changes and to take a more aggressive proactive approach.

Recently I've been testing Prophetic Flamespeaker, and he's been unbelievable. I've brought with him some friends in the form of Sword of Fire and Ice and Umezawa's Jitte. I've connected once with a PFS equipped with a Jitte (killed a goyf and trampled over to kill a liliana against BUG), but they actually aren't even necessary. Junds cards have so much raw power, if he connects once you'll be put ahead. A testament to his strength is that recently he's eaten a StP over bobs and goyfs multiples times against multiples opponents and been cliqued away over Liliana. I cut the Maelstrom Pulse, Sylvan Library and the third Hymn for the three PFSs. I've cut the Sword now, but Jitte is strong enough on it's own to warrant inclusion, with or without PFS. My only slight concern is that the mana curve is being raised a bit too much. Two might be the right number, or maybe cut a BBE. But cascading BBE into PFS is just glorious!

Has anyone else tried him out?

My SB is constantly changing, but some of the mainstays are:

2 Pernicious Deed
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Chains of Mefistopholes
1 Golgari Charm
1 Jund Charm
1 Forest

Dice_Box

07-11-2014, 07:35 AM

I will never (ever) play a forest or a Taiga in the maindeck
Ooh, my favourite kind of customer. One that is totally locked out by my Painter deck.

If you want to be more Aggressive, I would look at Library Number 2. That card is a godsend in the matches where you need your toys on call. I would switch over a Thoughsieze for it. If you looking at a combo light meta, you just don't need that much discard.

No I have not tried Speaker and I am unsure how likely I am to do so. Without the equipment I need to make good use of him, I would rather another Library. That way I am not looking at drawing random and dead. Also, move the Forest out of the Side, that's just a wasted slot.

Whitefaces

07-11-2014, 07:43 AM

Ooh, my favourite kind of customer. One that is totally locked out by my Painter deck.

If you want to be more Aggressive, I would look at Library Number 2. That card is a godsend in the matches where you need your toys on call. I would switch over a Thoughsieze for it. If you looking at a combo light meta, you just don't need that much discard.

No I have not tried Speaker and I am unsure how likely I am to do so. Without the equipment I need to make good use of him, I would rather another Library. That way I am not looking at drawing random and dead. Also, move the Forest out of the Side, that's just a wasted slot.

The Forest in the SB is for matchups like painter (or anything likely to run Blood Moon) and waste/loam decks among others. Against any other decks I don't want it. I had a basic forest for ages and it lost me a load of games.

I do agree on the power of Sylvan Library. I actually cut it, but will be moving it back in.

Flamespeaker doesn't need equipment to be good, but when he does connect with equipment it's pretty gross.

aluisiocsantos

07-11-2014, 08:05 AM

Whitefaces

07-11-2014, 10:10 AM

So what's your actual deck config? I see you mentioning equipments and Flamespeaker yet I see none of them in your decklist. They're in the sideboard?
I like the card, but have yet to test it. I like that it tramples, can kill a wide assortment of creatures, and trample over tnn. (not without dying)

Current decklist:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Prophetic Flamespeaker
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire

SB:

1 Chains of Mefistopholes
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Golgari Charm
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Jund Charm
1 Massacre
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Forest
2 Pyroblast

bryanzoll

07-11-2014, 11:40 AM

Nuke is Good

07-11-2014, 11:11 PM

I need to know what people's thoughts are as far as chains of Mephistopheles is concerned.

I think the card is great and it needs to be in the sideboard of the deck, however my conundrum is whether or not 1 is appropriate or 2.

I understand that you only need 1 in play for it to be effective, however your probably of drawing one out of 60 cards is pretty piss poor. Increasing the count to 2, increases that change by about 13% (or so I was told by someone that bothers to do math).

So what are people's thoughts on 1 vs 2 chains.

For me one is enough. I usually bring it in conjunction with other cards (typically pyroblasts). It's an excellent card when I get it but I won't mull aggressively as if I were trying to find my 3 leylines of the void. Jund and my wallet are pretty tight so both cannot afford a second chains.

aluisiocsantos

07-12-2014, 12:19 AM

Theres a debate around the issue a few pages back.

To put it short it works like this: it works as well as two sylvan libraries.
Generally you're gonna side library out to fit this, so for me, i'd stick to this math: one sylvan per chains.

It's more of a thing of taste/owning extra copies than actual effectivity - it will make it pop more in your hand but not the best draw after you have one in the table.

That said, it's one of the most retarded cards right now with so many blue decks + elves going on.

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iamajellydonut

07-12-2014, 12:35 AM

One Chains.

The main problem with Chains of Mephistopheles is that it doesn't do anything. Its presence creates an effect, yes, but it doesn't do anything. It doesn't draw a card. It doesn't make them discard a card. It doesn't kill a creature create a creature think about creatures or women. It plops down and does... nothing. This is also a common, and true, criticism of Sylvan Library, but untapping with a Library on the field at least immensely justifies its inclusion.

Chain's isn't a power play. It doesn't do anything. No deck at all (maybe High Tide) looks at Chains and goes "oh, no, what ever will I do?!". Yes, it's a strong card. Yes, it lets us not be jealous of Brainstorm. But it doesn't hose anything and it doesn't actively do anything. It's not like jamming 4xLeyline of the Void in your deck, windmilling it down screaming "GET RIGGIDY FUCKING WRECKED". You place it down, let your opponent call over a judge, and yay you have a glorified Meddling Mage. It's a rock in the middle of the road that, in 99% of cases, your opponent just has to swerve around. It's a fantastic card and you should never leave home without it, but it's not the best card in your board or even close to it.

razvan

07-13-2014, 09:20 AM

iamajellydonut

07-13-2014, 02:20 PM

Chains is good against Sneak and Show as well. Not being able to use Griselbrand and all their cantrips is a big deal.

Control and Combo in general suffer.

You don't need more cards that deal with the board. You want to limit their hand so they can't get on top of you.

It's "good" against a lot of things, but it's not great against anything. Example is that "not being able to use Griselbrand" is a fallacy. If they have a grip of three/four/five cards, they can still activate Griselbrand and get results. It may not be the usual sixteen cards in hand, but they can still shape those four cards to be the best in the deck. Griselbrand is also still seven damage flying lifelink, which in some cases is enough to "end" the game.

Hell, even the most affected of combo decks don't need to draw cards in order to win, and in many cases they can still "draw" around Chains.

Chains of Mephistopheles stops Brainstorm and cantrips topdecked with empty hands. Anything else it just makes "worse".

Punish Foolz

07-14-2014, 09:20 AM

Pretty sure omnitell gets absolutely wrecked by chains

bryanzoll

07-14-2014, 02:14 PM

Pretty sure omnitell gets absolutely wrecked by chains

Not if they enter an infinite loop if they keep discarding emrakul....Does the match go to time then?

Rizso

07-14-2014, 03:13 PM

Not if they enter an infinite loop if they keep discarding emrakul....Does the match go to time then?

How can they enter a inf loop with discarding emrakul?
If they Play enter the infinite with chains in play with will make its effect for each card in the deck after it has fully resolved then emrakuls can shuffle it in but not durring the resolving of the spell.

aluisiocsantos

07-14-2014, 03:43 PM

Even against Sneak Show, say they go Show and tell and play Griselbrand, you play Chains. We know it's a 7/7 lifelink fly, but it can't draw for counters anymore. You can "easily" cast Liliana/Edict/Maelstrom Pulse, or at least get a realistic chance at it, specially considering they already probably countered your turn 1 discard/reb countering SnT.

Let's check some interesting interactions aside of the already widely known blocking of cantrips:

Vs Shardless breaks any card advantage they might get with strix or the nightmarish Shardless Agent into Ancestral Visions.

Vs Elves, it stops the draw engine, which is what makes them win games quickly.

Vs Storm is where it's the trickiest because it won't do anything if they already have the tools in their hand, otherwise, another hardly won game.

In a solo game I did it, it was neat, but not recommended, which is playing against people running Sylvan Library such as Junk Dephts. It absolutely wrecks them.

In Miracles it's the only place where it's the least effective of the blue decks it affects, only jabbing at cantrips + Jace.

The only true cons the card has as far as I can see is decks using Vendillion Clique, which can be used on you, therefore causing you to mill/discard.

iamajellydonut

07-14-2014, 06:40 PM

Pretty sure omnitell gets absolutely wrecked by chains

Chains does not "wreck" OmniTell. Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, and Red Elemental Blast are the team that "wreck" OmniTell, and Liliana's the wench that keeps them in check. Chains of Mephistopheles helps, but it's not part of the strike team. It's more of the fat kid that sits on the broken enemy and waits for them to cry "uncle". Chains of Mephistopheles is an entirely supplemental card.

This last week I had the pleasure of playing at SCG Providence and went 3-3 before going on to side events. My final loss before I dropped was against OmniTell and it went something like this...

Game One:
He won the die roll. Shuffled up. Dealt hands. My hand was not that great on a blind draw, but it had a Deathrite and Liliana and a smattering of other stuff that meant it could hold its own against any fair deck, and is definitely better than whatever I could mull into. Game starts. He plays and Island and passes the turn. I drop a fetch and cast Deathrite, and pass the turn. He plays a Sol land, casts a Show and Tell that puts into play Omniscience and casts Enter the Infinite for free. I scoop.

Usual sideboard. Good stuff in. Bad stuff out.

Game Two:
Pretty good hand. Two Thoughtseize effects and a Hymn to Tourach. Limited beyond that, but it's enough to buy me time into an actual solution. We start the game. Before I can see my first upkeep, he puts a Leyline of Sanctity into play. I play a land, pass the turn. He plays an Island and passes the turn. I make a second land drop, since I have nothing to do, and pass the turn. He plays a Sol land, casts a Show and Tell that puts into play Omniscience and casts a Ponder that digs up Intuition that tutors for Enter the Infitite and I scoop.

So, with both those games in mind (that Leyline of Sanctity was pretty gross), how would a Chains of Mephistopheles have wrecked them? How could it have channeled its inner Gaddock Teeg and won the game? Even if you assume that I began the game with a Chains of Mephistopheles on the battlefield, they could have still won both of their games exactly the same way. OmniTell doesn't need all sixty cards in their hand to win. They need the one that kills you.

If my counts are correct, they would have had two cards left in hand after Enter the Infinite finished resolving in game one. In game two, they would've had one card. But that one card being a Cunning Wish still means you lose the game. And if he wanted to be extra cheeky in game one, he could make sure Emrakul is one of the discarded cards, and Cunning Wish and Enter the Infinite are the two cards left in hand. That way when you resolve Emrakul's trigger after Enter the Infinite is finished resolving, he can shuffle his library back up to fifty-six cards, use Cunning Wish to get Echoing Truth to bounce Chains, then Enter the Infinite for the traditional win. Or, in either game, if he was packing a full Emrakul suite, he could just cast Intuition for Emrakul and win straight out. Or he could be one of those fanboys of OmniShow that's always trying to find new rogue-ish tricks that make the deck not-irrelevant again.

In no scenario other than "I am already ahead" does Chains of Mephistopheles "wreck" OmniTell. It's certainly better than not having a Chains, but it's not even close to as good as a simple well timed Red Elemental Blast.

Even against Sneak Show, say they go Show and tell and play Griselbrand, you play Chains. We know it's a 7/7 lifelink fly, but it can't draw for counters anymore. You can "easily" cast Liliana/Edict/Maelstrom Pulse, or at least get a realistic chance at it, specially considering they already probably countered your turn 1 discard/reb countering SnT.

Again, Chains of Mephistopheles does not say "players can't draw more than one card each turn". That's Spirit of the Labyrinth. In the best of comparisons, Chains of Mephistopheles just makes their draws worse.

You pretty much stated all of the solutions to Griselbrand Jund has. 3-4xLiliana, 0-1xMaelstrom Pulse, 0-1xEdict. About 5xSolution since Liliana's grown more popular since the start of the year. Five cards or race a Griselbrand. Chains doesn't stop Griselbrand from fixing a hand and setting up hands with enough counters to end the game. Three cards in hand? Or two? Just enough to find a Force of Will or a Lotus Petal and Spell Pierce or maybe just backup.

Punish Foolz

07-14-2014, 08:30 PM

I've put chains in off of show and tell X number of times and won X games. They have to play around it too hard and it bastardizes their game plan. I see a lot of feel smart discussion going on and not a lot of practical application of the card. It's not god's gift to Jund, but it is a powerful card. Yes it's dead here/there but the reward is high enough to be worth it.

iamajellydonut

07-14-2014, 08:46 PM

The question wasn't whether it was worth it. That much isn't disputed. The answer is absolutely "yes". The question was if it was worth running two.

ironclad8690

07-15-2014, 05:25 PM

Hey Guys,

Had a pretty poor night last night and it made me want to re-evaluate my sideboard.

First round I lost to Lands in 3 games. First game he dispatched me with Marit with little effort (made at the end of my turn so Liliana was of no help). Game 2 I surgical Life from the Loam, and I see a pretty disappointing hand (for me at least) with two Thespian's Stages and two Dark Depths. I needed to draw perfectly and have my opponent make the right choices to win, and I did. I drew another surgical extraction, and then a liliana of the veil. I played the Liliana, and ticked up, hoping he would discard the extra dark depths. He did, and I surgically extracted it. Needless to say, I won that game, but game three he just assembled natural turn 3 Depths Stage after I surgicalled his turn 1 life form the loam.

Round 2 I got a Bye.

Round 3 I got paired against UWr Miracles. Nothing fancy, just straight up old fashioned Terminus/Entreat Miracles. I was excited because I thought it would turn out to be a good matchup, but the results were to the contrary. Game 1 starts out fine, I thoughtseize a Jace and play some dudes, attack him pretty low before he finds his first terminus. After that point the game drags out and he plays and starts ticking up a Jace. I have a DRS and Lili on the board, but need to topdeck a Bloodbraid Elf or a Punishing Fire to deal with this Jace. I find neither, however I am able to ultimate Lili 2 times, first getting rid of Coutner-Top + lands, the second time crippling his manabase. He kept choosing the piles with his Jace however, and I never really find an answer. He ults me when my Liliana is at 6 counters for the 3rd time. Game 2 I bring in Blasts, Duress, Pithing Needle, and the 4th Hymn. This game is a little weirder, I lose a Lili to V. Clique and both of our life totals get pretty low. I stabilize at around 8 life, but Jace into Brainstorm into Top finds him an Entreat within the next couple of turns. I was particularly unlucky because he seemed to always find exactly what he needed using his top and my two Bloodbraids cascaded into dead discard and dead abrupt decay. This was a terrible match to lose, especially after 2 Lili ultimates in game 1.

Round 4 I get another bye somehow, but one of the guys who split first is down to play. He is on Death and Taxes, and he is a strong player. Game 1 starts off a little weird. I have no answer to turn 1 mom which complicates the rest of the game. He plays 2 revokers, 1 on Deathrite, and 1 on Liliana. I end up drawing both of those cards and not the double removal I need for his Mom. Eventually his board of Mom, Revoker x2, Serra Avenger, and Aven Mindcensor do me in with me having a Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Deathrite Shaman, and Sylvan Library. I bring in E Plague, Goglari Charms, Ancient Grudge, Pithing Needle, and Jitte. Game 1 I kill off his aether vials using an Abrupt Decay and a Maelstrom Pulse (he played 1 on turn one and then another on turn two), and I land a Dark Confidant to begin drawing some cards. He plays a Revoker naming Liliana, which I end up drawing into the following turn. He plays a Serra Avenger which I have no answer to, and then a Jitte that I have no answer to. He is keeping me locked under Rish Port + multiple wastelands, so I never really do get a chance to get back into the game.

After losing every match that I actually had an opponent in, I started to contemplate my decisions throughout the evening and what I could have done better. I know that Jund is a good deck and stands at least a 45% chance against all of the decks I played, but somehow either through play mistakes or bad luck I could only manage to win 1 game against Lands. Death and Taxes is supposed to be a great matchup but I can't seem to get an edge. I have seen the same thing happen to other Jund players so I know it isn't just me. Any time Punishing Jund faces Death and Taxes on SCG Feature Matches the Death and Taxes players seem to always win.

Anyhow, here is my sideboard:

3 Pyroblast
2 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Engineered Plague
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Hymn to Tourach.

If you guys knew you were likely to face Lands, Miracles, Storm, Patriot Delver, BUG Delver, Merfolk, Death and Taxes, Food Chain, Shardless BUG, and Esper Deathblade, how would you construct your boards?

aluisiocsantos

07-15-2014, 07:21 PM

Regarding destroying Aether Vial in DnT I don't think it's the best thing to be done really. As you wrote it yourself, you spent decay and pulse on them and then had no outs from Avenger and etc. I'd only consider it an option if I already had answers for other creatures such as bolt/p fire. In merfolk, vial lets them escalate in power insanely quick but it's not as powerful in dnt. It's more pf a sinergy thing with rishadan more than anything else.

As for miracles i think you had more of a bad luck problem, but usually i try not flooding the board with double tarmos for ex, keeping one in hand incase he has terminus. Flooding the board in zoo was acceptable because its so easy to get back in game but jund has potentially just 7 creatures to beat it down, 3 of which you were never able to draw.

Your sideboard seems fine though I don't like playing plague if youre already running charms. I'd exchange that for a bigger board swipe such as either pernicious deed (prevents them to use Entreat) or toxic deluge. It's just a great tool against everything plus goyf food.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

anakyn

07-16-2014, 06:34 AM

Hey Guys,
Death and Taxes is supposed to be a great matchup but I can't seem to get an edge. I have seen the same thing happen to other Jund players so I know it isn't just me. Any time Punishing Jund faces Death and Taxes on SCG Feature Matches the Death and Taxes players seem to always win.

The general opinion about the D&T matchup being great is pretty much incorrect: this is NOT a great matchup, unless we draw the nuts and/or we fill our sideboard with hate.
Even with that, they can easily lock us out of the game with their mana denial. They also have RIP to deal with our best answer (Punishing fire) and our best blocker/finisher (Goyf).
All in all, the best cards we have to beat them are Confidant and Library, which provide card advantage without the risk of playing a Tourach and hitting their Liege.

We definitely have all the tools to win this matchup, but we have to (in order of priority):
- draw enough mana resources (lands/shaman)
- assemble the Fire/Grove sinergy
- get rid of their RIP asap, either with discard or removal
- land a Confidant and/or Library to get an edge on cards
- land a Liliana and lock the game with her

I played this matchup lots of times vs competent opponents, and the only doubt I still have is about Tourach: it's obviously great for the card advantage it provides (which is huge against D&T), but the risk of hitting Liege is pretty high as well.
Lately I prefer to keep a number of those in postboard games (something like 3 on the play and 2 on the draw) toghether with 2/3 Thoughtseize, because I feel that even if we hit a Liege, we can still deal with it with our removal suite.

On the other hand, I'm a little more skeptical about Thoughtseize: they are very useful against D&T as well as any Stoneforge deck, but the 2 damage we suffer from them is NOT negligible at all, since D&T plays the aggro role and wants to race us. Right now I prefer to swith some Thoughtseize out for game 2/3 and keep the Tourach in.

Whitefaces

07-16-2014, 06:49 AM

I'm playing more sweepers than most as I think Jund can definitely get tempo'd out.

I have:

1 x Massacre
1 x Jund Charm
1 x Golgari Charm
2 x Pernicious Deed

I can't stress enough how insane the deeds are. Against things like DnT and elves it can win 'unwinnable' games, and it's fantastic against miracles too. If you get one to stick early, it can get you out of a counterbalance lock, bloon moon if they play it and it stops them entreating.

The Massacre is a little nod to TNN, especially in UWR delver matchups. I've had some games where I wiped a Delver, TNN and SFM for 0 mana. That is obviously a perfect scenario, but I feel it's a card people should be playing more and it's insane in the DnT matchup too.

The charms serve multiple purposes, so they are nice inclusions.

The rest of my SB is:

1 Chains of Mefistopholes
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Krosan Grip
1 Forest
2 Pyroblast

So would bring in the Grip and Pyroblasts for the Miracles matchup. It can be tough, though. I feel like it depends on the skill and draw of the miracles player a lot of the time.

cab0747

07-23-2014, 02:20 PM

YamiKuriboh

07-23-2014, 03:13 PM

A few dumb questions here from a newbie Jund player:

1: Why is this non-existent on MODO? I guess it has a higher price tag than some decks, but it is close enough to Modern Jund that I feel like that couldn't be the reason it is unpopular.
2: What match-ups are we bringing in Loam for? It seems good against 12-Post variants so we can recur Wastelands. There has to be more than that if it is taking a SB slot.

Thanks! Again, I apologize for my lack of knowledge here.

1: no idea, it just finished 2nd in an scg so maybe time for a resurgence
2: any grindy match, vs land destruction. Not sure about 12 post, personally i want to be super aggro vs them and loam may be too slow.

So ive been having good results with jund. My main deck is the same as dustin shields. Sideboard the same also: -1 phyrexian revoker, -1 grafdiggers cage, -1 maelstrom pulse, +1 pithing needle (for depths), +1 pyroblast (for blue decks, +1 life from the loam.

I think every match up is decent apart from fast combo and burn. Miracles is a cakewalk. Sometimes, delver decks can godhand you but generally its favourable. I love this deck!

Dice_Box

07-26-2014, 02:21 AM

Ok, I have an event coming up tomorrow and I am finalising my board. This is what I have right now:

2 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
3 Extirpate
2 REB
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Golgari Charm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage

What I am planing for is: Lands, Loam, Elves, Reanimator, Blade, DnT, SnT and Storm. I am guessing there may be one Mud deck too, but shy of throwing in a Null Rod, not much more I can do about that. I expect Miracles to be low, but I am set as I think I can be for that. Can anyone see a card I have missed and should be playing?

YamiKuriboh

07-26-2014, 07:32 AM

Dice_Box

07-26-2014, 09:07 AM

Just to mention, Plague is the 15tg card.

Cage is a catch all to Elves, Dredge, Oops and Reanimator. I expect to see all there in some fashion or another. Opps being my biggest fear. But I need a way to stop Dredge targets before they can Dredge (Loam with a cycle land comes to mind) so I am uneasy about Surgical. At the same time, Opps is fast so I am kind of tossing up Extraction and Extirpate.

aluisiocsantos

07-28-2014, 09:36 AM

I like Cage in Jund, has won me several matches. On Reanimator it leaves you to worry about only Show and tell. I have beaten two reanimators like this a couple weeks ago in the same tourney. And the extra interaction to Green Sun Zenith/Natural Order is awesome.

I like extirpate but it think surgical is more suited for jund due to the way it's mana intensive. Plus Deathrite Shaman is there to fix our lives. The rest of the list is rock solid. I don't like Engineered Plague so much though, I'd change it for a more exploding effect such as either Pernicious Deed or Toxic Deluge. Plgue is way too especific, while those other two will work as well and will also get bigger threats!

Nuke is Good

07-28-2014, 10:18 AM

Cage is really nice helps me against my friend who loves using ANT when he tries to combo out with PIF. It's something he must answer. I used to run 3x Leyline of the Void as my GY hate card but that was when Dredge was all over the place.

For me Surgicals/Extirpates weren't doing it for me. I only used it once to great success and it was against RUG Delver for a color lockout but never did I see it against a combo matchup. So instead I just added in pyroblasts.

bryanzoll

07-28-2014, 11:31 AM

iamajellydonut

07-28-2014, 12:20 PM

So at a recent local event (went 3-1) I need to tell people how unreal it was playing with pernicious deed in the SB. I ran 2x deed and each time I landed one (which was 4 times) games ended. I played against DnT and Belcher where I landed them and they single handedly won me the match. Against Belcher I cleared the board of 18 goblin tokens G2 and G3 he was slow to go off and I popped deed for 0 which cleared an LED, chome mox, and lotus petal. DnT it was a complete board wipe each time including his equipment. I followed each deed up with a bloodbraid elf in this matchup which hit the obvious...tarmogoyf.

My conclusion...deeds to me seems like an auto-include in the 75...thoughts?

"Auto-include" is a very strong term. Grafdigger's Cage is the only auto-include in Jund's sideboard. Every other piece in the board, from REBs to Massacres, can be replaced. But not Grafdigger's Cage.

Pernicious Deed is a very strong card and I personally love it, but it's also expensive, doesn't do anything unique, and is not a huge player in any matchup we're actually scared of. Yay, you got value as is expected when you drop a sweeper, but there are quite a few cards that come first in terms of necessity for both of those match-ups.

DaGarver

07-30-2014, 02:54 PM

Planning on trying out this list in my local weekly tomorrow night. I don't think there are any glaring issues; it's pretty stock.

23 Lands:
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Forest
1 Swamp

15 Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

22 Spells:
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Punishing Fire
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Sylvan Library
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
3 Duress
2 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Engineered Plague
1 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Scavenging Ooze

The mainboard is a standard Punishing list. I'm playing with a smattering of cards in the sideboard to get an idea of my options and which ones I like. Something a playtesting partner of mine suggested is Batterskull as an additional trump card in midrange mirrors (particularly those that do not run True-Name Nemesis, but even that card is manageable with this 75). Does anyone have experience running Batterskull in their sideboard? Was it good (and, if so, where)? What did you play it in favor of in your sideboard?

aluisiocsantos

07-31-2014, 07:39 AM

AggroControl

07-31-2014, 09:55 PM

Longtime Jund player here who has recently returned to play after several years absence. I've read through most of the thread and I have some questions for more recent players of the theme.

First off, when I played Jund it was more of an aggro deck than it seems to be at this point. Has Jund become a mid-range deck over the last few years? Things like Punishing Fire and Liliana of the Veil look very mid-rangy to me. 23-24 lands looks kind of mid-rangy also when 9 of the lands don't produce black mana. Is it a common thing to get into the mid-game looking to stabilize like Junk does and then win from there?

Liliana of the Veil is a very strong card. That said I have issues at times when I play her. She's dead against Dredge and Lands. She doesn't really help much against Miracles unless I already have them at very low cards, they play too much off of the top of the deck for her to be really good against them. She has lists that she is a powerhouse against, like most of the Delver lists, Junk and the mirror. Is she an auto-include in Jund at this point? She seems like a great sideboard card to me, for the matchups that are very problematic, like Dark Depths and Show and Tell. How often do you play her game one and find that she wasn't the answer you were looking for?

BBE is definitely mid-rangy but it is a finisher that can also kill Jace if they tapped out to play him so I don't mind the mid-rangy aspect as much. Do people find BBE winning games with the same consistency that he did in Jund a few years ago?

The rough shell I'd like to play looks something like this:

4x Thoughtseize
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Lightning Bolt

4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Abrupt Decay
3x Dark Confidant
1x Sylvan Library

4x Bloodbraid Elf

4x Wasteland
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Bayou
4x Badlands
1x Forest
1x Swamp

That's 54 cards with 6 choices left to make. The consensus in the non-Punishing Fire builds would seem to be 3-4 Liliana of the Veil, 0-1 Maelstrom Pulse/Engineered Explosives/Pernicious Deed, 0-1 Volrath's Stronghold/Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth.

Is Sensei's Divining Top doable as a 3-of for the synergy with fetches, Bob and BBE? If the list is going to be mid-rangy it'd be nice to be able to keep something on top for when I need it. Too many lists are playing Thoughtseize and Hymns for me to be really comfortable drawing my solutions randomly. Do people think this is just too passive and DoA at this point?

Is Life From the Loam worthwhile in this meta given the prevalence of lowland Delver lists and Liliana? I hate having no cards in the list that I can discard easily and even turn into a plus when the opponent drops Liliana. One of the things I hate having my opponent do when I play Liliana is dropping LFtL when I activate her.

Are there any obvious aggro creatures that I missed in my list above? By aggro I mean lands turn 3 or earlier and if the opponent can't manage them they're going to finish things off. I used to use Countryside Crusher as a 2-of to finish things off. Is he just too slow at this point?

I'm also looking for answers in a meta that is very BUG, RUG and TA heavy. My first two drops aren't likely to stick well. One of the things I'm experimenting with is Sprouting Thrinax because he beats Lightning Bolt, Abrupt Decay and Liliana, which count for much of the removal in my meta. He also stands down all the little non-flying beaters and trades nicely with Nimble Mongoose and Treetop Village both of which can be problematic at times. He blocks Goyf for 2 or 3 turns, sometimes 4 as I am digging for an answer. Is the power curve too high to make him effective at this point? I generally don't put creatures in the sideboard because they are too weak to justify the slot.

Any help would be appreciated. My first foray back into Jund several months ago taught me that the meta is a very different thing now. Miracles and Abrupt Decay, not that that's a bad thing. :)

Dice_Box

07-31-2014, 10:27 PM

His AC, welcome to the thread.

First, yes Jund is now very much a Midrange deck. While a full on Aggro plan can work, it is really more of a plan B and not the main plan. Normal you are playing a limited control game with the hope of 2 for 1 or sometimes 1 for 1 until you get the upper hand. That is why Punishing Fire is now more or less an Auto include, because it adds to that 2 for 1 game plan. As for Lili, she works in much the same way. While she will have her bad matches (as most cards do) she has her strengths as well. To say she is bad against Dredge I think is a bit of a misconception. No, making them discard is not great, but I have used her -2 on myself before and blown out their bridges much to the surprise of the Dredge player. Honestly, Lili is a needed part of the current shell and you should seek to run at lest 3 copies of her. While she will seam lackluster in some matches, she shines too often to cut.

BBE is not a finisher, it is in fact another way to 2 for 1. Again working to the decks over all plan. Goyf will often be at lest half again as strong as Elf when you slam him in at about the same time you could cast Elf. What Elf brings is another form of Removal. A card that can offer an answer to most situations and can do some crazy things like bring in a Lili as he enters or Pulse away the biggest threat to you on the table.

Loam is likely not to be as useful if your not running Fire. I would not look into it with your list. While you can Waste lock, it is cute and slow and if you have the board state to make it work, your likely already winning that game.

Top is not great. It costs mana to use and never gets you ahead in the game. You need to waste your draw step if you want to use it. Run 2 Library, not top.

If you are having issues with RUG and BUG, I honestly think you should look at PF and Lili. PF on Delver is nuts, if they counter it you just get it back, it ends Goyf fights by adding in that extra point of damage and it deals with DRS like a boss. Lili can come in and mop up Tombstalker after it is all said and done.

In all, I am getting the impression you played Jund in the Standard days and your wanting to merge it to the Legacy deck. This is a good plan, its a strong choice, but to get it running optimally, it might cost you a fair bit.

Dice.

AggroControl

07-31-2014, 10:46 PM

I played a more aggro Legacy version of Jund than the format supports right now. Kird Apes, Goyfs, Bobs, Countryside Crushers, BBE's with Thoughtseize and Hymns for disruption and Bolts and Maelstrom Pulse for removal. It had LFtL built-in also for waste locks and for the CC's. I'd rather go back down that road but I don't think it is possible given the way the meta has evolved. Miracles would be an absolutely miserable matchup.

Dice_Box

07-31-2014, 10:52 PM

If that is the kind of build you want, you should look at Jund Depths. I think that kind of engine style deck that you want with beats is better found there. Granted it is still not quite the Zooish deck your after, but it is closer to what you after than Midrange Jund is I think.

DaGarver

08-01-2014, 12:21 PM

I like how you managed to include so many different stuff in the main deck. i refer to Toxic Deluge and Jitte, I think it could be a good one, especially if you're expecting a lot of delver decks. I kinda want to try this eventually.
How did the tourney go?

I made a metagame call to play this deck. The tournament went okay (2-2). My losses were to Dredge (no DRS game 1, lost a sideboard game after not having turn 1 interaction and he went off on turn 2) and Elves (lost a comical game 3 Dryad Arbor beatdown + active Deathrite Shaman while he drew Abrupt Decays for all my threats and I flooded out). The deck did, however, do what I expected: crush fair decks. Bloodbraid Elf is an unreal Magic card. I recall my Death and Taxes opponent's reaction in game 1 after I popped Catacombs for a Swamp and then played a Bloodstained Mire: "Oh, ****, it's Jund."

I actually swapped Deluge and Charm from main to side before the tourney; it wasn't ever really relevant, but I'm pretty sure it's correct.

aluisiocsantos

08-01-2014, 01:39 PM

DaGarver

08-01-2014, 03:48 PM

I play a lot against Manaless Dregde because my brother plays the deck, so if we are not practicing we end upagainst each other one way or another at tourneys. It's tough. It requires a lot of skill and a lot of luck. If stuff isn't in your hand, it's a game for them.

How did MD Charm perform? I think I've seen people run it before on SCG. I personally enjoy 1 extra edict effect MD due to TNN, and doubles up versus Emrakul and Reanimator decks.

I at least liked the option of Golgari Charm. It is already an answer to an unequipped True-Name Nemesis, but doubles as an answer to random enchantments (Sneak Attack being the most important one) and also protection against destruction-based removal. It's flexible, which is why I like it.

My general approach to Reanimator and Sneak/Show matchups is similar to how I played it with Deathblade: treat them as a hard combo deck and accept that if they get the key thing into play, you are just dead. That might be a bit riskier without Force of Will.

TLK

08-04-2014, 01:14 AM

Took 1st place in a local 20+-man Legacy tournament today with high-end Legacy staples on the line.

This was my list:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
2 Lightning Bolt

4 Liliana of the Veil

1 Sylvan Library

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
2 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows

sb:
2 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Plague
2 Pyroblast
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Duress
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Surgical Extraction

Round 1: Dredge

I'll admit, I haven't had the most practice against Dredge, but I understand our gameplan for the most part. Fortunately, I had 2x Deathrite in game 1 to remove all of his dredgers from the graveyard. Game 2, I had Deathrite again and he just had back luck with his dredges. Nothing really of note here, other than the power of Deathrite in so many matchups.

2-0, 1-0

Round 2: RUG Delver

Figured this matchup was in our favor, since Decay takes care of everything aside from Mongoose, which is also taken care of by Deathrite. Game 1 I'm able to keep him off green mana and get the win on the back of Goyf. Game 2 is a long grindy game but I am too low on life thanks to my own Bob to turn the corner. Probably could've salvaged the game but I'm on 1 and need another land and I draw a fetch. :/ Game 3 went to turns and it's basically a Goyf battle the whole way. I draw my Decays and Bolts when I need to and clear the path for the victory.

2-1, 2-0

Round 3: Elves

This was against my good friend who is a master with Elves, and in all of our playtesting games I win VERY few games. I got steamrolled game 1 as I had predicted. I had Wasted a Cradle and played a Bob, then lose on turn 4 due to Natural Order -> Craterhoof. Not much to say here. Game 2 my mana denial plan works alongside the Punishing Grove engine mowing down all of his Elves. He scoops. Game 3 was a close one, but my turn 1 Grafdigger's Cage was enough to slow him down (he can't GSZ and also can't fetch for Arbors). Later on a draw my Engineered Plague and that pretty much seals it. Was lucky to squeak by with that one.

2-1, 3-0

Round 4: Charbelcher

I'm always nervous playing against combo because I know my window of opportunity is very slim and I sometimes question which cards to target with discard effects. Game 1 my opponent makes a play mistake on his first turn and isn't able to activate the Belcher he cast. A few turns later he activates it yet reveals the mountain two cards down, so I only take 4. Luckily I had enough pressure on the board to win before he could conjure up the mana to activate it again. Game 2 I open with triple Thoughtseize and take all of his rituals. Not much to this one.

2-0, 4-0

Round 5: Intentional draw into top 8. I'm the #1 seed.

0-0-3, 4-0-1

Top 8: BUG Delver

He was basically denied mana in both games, and my removal was too much for him to handle. Pyroblasts doubling up as answers for Delvers came in handy. This was more lopsided than it probably should have been, even though I still think I'm favored. Chains was good here.

2-0, 5-0-1

Top 4: We all draw and split the card pool. I'm given the official "win" since I was the first seed going into top 8. Ended up winning a NM Flooded Strand and a NM Polluted Delta. Not bad.

Let me know if you have any questions or want a bit more detail (can't guarantee I'll remember everything) about matchups or card selection/sideboarding strategies.

Whitefaces

08-17-2014, 02:18 PM

What are the best SB options for SnT? I feel it's the weakest matchup. At the moment I have four TS and two Hymn as discard MD and also a Golgari Charm which can deal with Sneak Attack.

My board looks like this:

1 Chains of Mefistopholes
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Life from the Loam
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Forest
1 Massacre
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Forest
2 Pyroblast

It's a bit weak to combo, but my meta has a good amount of fair decks.

I SB:

+ 3 Surgical Extraction
+ 1 Chains of Mefistopholes
+ 1 Forest
+ 2 Pyroblast

- 3 Punishing Fire
- 2 Lightning Bolt
- 1 Umezawas Jitte
- 1 Grove of the Burnwillows

Is there a special card that greatly improves the MU that I'm missing? Or should I have some Duress in the board?

aluisiocsantos

08-17-2014, 02:44 PM

I see two forests and I asee the problem. What gives??? Surely more discards!

Whitefaces

08-17-2014, 03:21 PM

I see two forests and I asee the problem. What gives??? Surely more discards!

Oh sorry, one is meant to be a Jund Charm.

aluisiocsantos

08-17-2014, 04:22 PM

I'd also run less GY hate, specifically less Cages, that and the other forest should give you some space for Duress or Inquisition! (Duress over IOK for SneakShow matchup)

Whitefaces

08-18-2014, 05:02 AM

I'd also run less GY hate, specifically less Cages, that and the other forest should give you some space for Duress or Inquisition! (Duress over IOK for SneakShow matchup)

I can cut a cage for sure, they're mainly for Elves though as I've always had a bit of trouble with that MU. The second forest is meant to be a Jund Charm, but that can be cut too. It's had its moments, but with access to two deeds, Massacre and Golgari Charm a pyroclasm effect isn't needed.

So two Duress you think?

Thoughts on an U Sea and some Swan Songs? Discard is good, but it doesn't stop the top of their deck, which is very dangerous thanks to Ponder and BS.

aluisiocsantos

08-18-2014, 08:02 AM

Ops, sorry, I meant the actual Forest. Is there a reason for the singleton Forest on the sideboard? How's your maindeck?

If your meta has a lot of elves though, maybe cut the third surgical instead. I've run 2 at most times and they seem to always pop up!

Life from the Loam is tricky too. I love the card (I currently have been playing the BOM9 variant of Aggro Loam) but it really depends on the way your maindeck is built, like based on the amount of Wastelands you run (for wastelock purposes) or are you using it to guarantee you'll have Grove online? Like, the card IS great, but maybe you gotta figure out what events you're gonna use it, and if it's not stealing the space against other problems.

I think one other Jund poster here used to run Swan Songs on the sideboard. I have never tried but I have mixed feelings. It IS a hard counter vs combo, but it will weaken your manabase and steal too many sideboard slots. Like.. one US and 3 Swan Songs to make it pop up in your hand? 4? That's already 1/3 of your sideboard. I'd say stick to the discard plan!

If you have discard + pyroblast (hey, here's your Swan Song! Plus Jace and TNN killer. If you really want to insist on Swan Songs, add more of these instead, I think!) + Surgical Extraction. Sure, pyro doesnt counter Sneak Attack, but you can still win if he hides the card upon you casting a Discard. I won a match recently against SnT by discarding.. he hides Sneak Attack and shows me a hand with 3 Emrakuls. I discard one of them, and upon touching the GY I cast Surgical Extraction. He gets nothing else to do and loses the game. So yeah, I think I dislike the card.. it's like the similar way Zoo would run Mindbreak Trap in order to beat Storm. It works but steals too many SB slots for a solo purpose (for me the biggest problem). Jund cards are generally multipurpose.

iamajellydonut

08-18-2014, 09:34 AM

Fun Fact: There is literally never a reason to have a Forest in Jund's sideboard.

Asthereal

08-18-2014, 10:38 AM

Fun Fact: There is literally never a reason to have a Forest in Jund's sideboard.
Let alone two.

@Dissection: Maybe you could try a couple of Pithing Needles on side as well. Pretty versatile option.
They stop Sneak Attack of course, but are also useful against Top and Jace and such.

2x Duress
2x Pithing Needle
2-3x Red Elemental Blast / Pyroblast
2x Golgari Charm
2x Surgical Extraction

These are all useful against Sneak&Show as well as Miracles (popular deck right now!).
I would probably take these 10-11 cards and top them up with whatever else I feel I might need.

DOM

08-18-2014, 12:46 PM

I would still try to add a little more graveyard hate to make sure not to be caught off guard.

Whitefaces

08-18-2014, 02:19 PM

Fun Fact: There is literally never a reason to have a Forest in Jund's sideboard.

Very helpful insight, thanks. The forest is metagaming for where I play. Some miracles players still play Blood Moon and I wanted the basics to cast decay off. There is also a couple of lands players as well as some other wasteland decks which run loam. I absolutely hated the forest MD, it cost me a bunch of games where I couldn't cast Lili or Hymn.

Ops, sorry, I meant the actual Forest. Is there a reason for the singleton Forest on the sideboard? How's your maindeck?

If your meta has a lot of elves though, maybe cut the third surgical instead. I've run 2 at most times and they seem to always pop up!

Life from the Loam is tricky too. I love the card (I currently have been playing the BOM9 variant of Aggro Loam) but it really depends on the way your maindeck is built, like based on the amount of Wastelands you run (for wastelock purposes) or are you using it to guarantee you'll have Grove online? Like, the card IS great, but maybe you gotta figure out what events you're gonna use it, and if it's not stealing the space against other problems.

I think one other Jund poster here used to run Swan Songs on the sideboard. I have never tried but I have mixed feelings. It IS a hard counter vs combo, but it will weaken your manabase and steal too many sideboard slots. Like.. one US and 3 Swan Songs to make it pop up in your hand? 4? That's already 1/3 of your sideboard. I'd say stick to the discard plan!

If you have discard + pyroblast (hey, here's your Swan Song! Plus Jace and TNN killer. If you really want to insist on Swan Songs, add more of these instead, I think!) + Surgical Extraction. Sure, pyro doesnt counter Sneak Attack, but you can still win if he hides the card upon you casting a Discard. I won a match recently against SnT by discarding.. he hides Sneak Attack and shows me a hand with 3 Emrakuls. I discard one of them, and upon touching the GY I cast Surgical Extraction. He gets nothing else to do and loses the game. So yeah, I think I dislike the card.. it's like the similar way Zoo would run Mindbreak Trap in order to beat Storm. It works but steals too many SB slots for a solo purpose (for me the biggest problem). Jund cards are generally multipurpose.

There's not a huge amount of elves, but it's a matchup I wanted another card for. I like having three surgicals as I feel like you always want to draw one in each MU you bring it in for (der), and three is obviously better than two! But I could cut a cage definitely.

I was the only player playing Jund for months and months at my LGS until recently a huge amount of people have picked the deck up, it really surprised me! So Life from the Loam is mostly for the mirror, but it can come in for multiple MUs. It's only been put on my SB recently though. As I mentioned, there are a lot of fair decks in my meta which it's good for.

I agree with you, the extra SB slot U Sea would take might not be worth it regarding Swan Song, it's hard to call on theory alone though. I might give them a try, will post results here if I do.

I could add a third Pyroblast, but Jace and TNN haven't been problems for me really. Jace gets P Fired/BBE'd, and TNN I have 2 Deed, Massacre, a maindeck Golgari Charm as well as four Liliana and 4 TS/2 Hymn as discard.

Let alone two.

@Dissection: Maybe you could try a couple of Pithing Needles on side as well. Pretty versatile option.
They stop Sneak Attack of course, but are also useful against Top and Jace and such.

2x Duress
2x Pithing Needle
2-3x Red Elemental Blast / Pyroblast
2x Golgari Charm
2x Surgical Extraction

These are all useful against Sneak&Show as well as Miracles (popular deck right now!).
I would probably take these 10-11 cards and top them up with whatever else I feel I might need.

I do like Pithing Needle, and it is fantastic vs miracles, but it's a bit awkward with Pernicious Deed (which I bring in one or two depending on the build vs miracles). I have one Golagri Charm MD actually, it's been fantastic so could add a second in the SB.

AggroControl

08-18-2014, 02:28 PM

I do like Pithing Needle, and it is fantastic vs miracles, but it's a bit awkward with Pernicious Deed (which I bring in one or two depending on the build vs miracles). I have one Golagri Charm MD actually, it's been fantastic so could add a second in the SB.

If you're playing Needle and Grafdigger's Cage Engineered Explosives is probably the sweeper you want. Kills zombie tokens, angel tokens, spirit tokens, goblin tokens and beast tokens and leaves all of your stuff intact. Also kills zero cc artifacts against combo when they drop their hand early because you are playing Hymns and Thoughtseize.

aluisiocsantos

08-18-2014, 02:31 PM

I love eng explosives, but youre gonna hate to cascade into it

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

AggroControl

08-18-2014, 02:40 PM

I love eng explosives, but youre gonna hate to cascade into it

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Very good point. Maybe EE + Maelstrom Pulse in the SB and bring in EE when you are worried about tokens early or late as in most combo and Miracles? 6 mana gets you your BBE and EE going off at zero. Maelstrom Pulse will still kill Elves on turn 3, if you live that long, by killing their Nettle Sentinels or Wirewood Symbiotes depending on what is about to blow up in your face.

Asthereal

08-18-2014, 02:57 PM

I've always liked to have a second Maelstrom Pulse somewhere in the 75, because it's just very versatile against any slow controllish deck. Never played Deeds in Jund. I can see the appeal, but I'm not sure they are really necessary.

Punish Foolz

08-18-2014, 09:47 PM

Neffy

08-19-2014, 03:34 AM

I think one other Jund poster here used to run Swan Songs on the sideboard. I have never tried but I have mixed feelings. It IS a hard counter vs combo, but it will weaken your manabase and steal too many sideboard slots. Like.. one US and 3 Swan Songs to make it pop up in your hand? 4? That's already 1/3 of your sideboard. I'd say stick to the discard plan!

That was me, and that was some time ago.
It was good, but it is essentially a two card combo (sea is easy to fetch i know). However you dont wonna cascade into SS with BBE and i generally dislike having lands in the board (i didnt have the sea maindeck as that just seemed clunky).
It seems perfect for SnT, but duress+pyroblast and all our mainboard discard is in my opinion better since you get to stay with your jund colors and and dont have to rely on having a fetchland AND SS.

Whitefaces

08-19-2014, 05:10 AM

That was me, and that was some time ago.
It was good, but it is essentially a two card combo (sea is easy to fetch i know). However you dont wonna cascade into SS with BBE and i generally dislike having lands in the board (i didnt have the sea maindeck as that just seemed clunky).
It seems perfect for SnT, but duress+pyroblast and all our mainboard discard is in my opinion better since you get to stay with your jund colors and and dont have to rely on having a fetchland AND SS.

Makes sense to me. I think I'll still give them a try as I'm quite curious, but I don't think SS is the card I/we're looking for. Testing will be next week though, tonight I'm playing a fun Nic Fit brew as I want to play the new Ob Nixalis :)

Whitefaces

08-19-2014, 05:12 AM

I cut pulse from my deck entirely sometime last year and I haven't missed it. I've had much better results with diabolic edict. Pulse was played in older jund lists to answer creatures and Planeswalkers, fire helps trim the fat so the edict effects can take on the meat of opposing creatures and Planeswalkers aren't well positioned against punishing fire. I'm not saying running pulse is flat out wrong, but I would encourage you to try cutting it for an edict and see how you like it. I didn't want to cut pulse but my friend assured me I would like it if I tried it, and he was right.

I've cut Pulse from my 75 too and haven't looked back. I've played an Edict on and off for a while. It's not in my 75 at the moment, but could definitely make a return as it's very useful, just quite meta dependent. I have enough answers to TNN already.

aluisiocsantos

08-19-2014, 10:13 AM

I've cut Pulse from my 75 too and haven't looked back. I've played an Edict on and off for a while. It's not in my 75 at the moment, but could definitely make a return as it's very useful, just quite meta dependent. I have enough answers to TNN already.

Diabolic Edict goes well against Reanimator and Sneak Show as well. Chainer's is better for grindy, since it loses instant speed for a second use.
I started using Diabolic maindeck and never went back.

Punish Foolz

08-19-2014, 12:15 PM

// Deck: Jund (60)

// Lands
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

// Spells
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Life from the Loam
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Punishing Fire
1 Sylvan Library
4 Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Obstinate Baloth
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Rakdos Charm
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
This is the list I'm taking to an iq this Sunday, I won the last legacy event I played at this location so I'll be attempting to run it back.

Punish Foolz

08-19-2014, 12:17 PM

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=68747
This was the list I won with so you see the tweaks I've made since

aluisiocsantos

08-19-2014, 12:37 PM

Love the list. Baloth comes in vs mirror, bug and esper?

Punish Foolz

08-19-2014, 12:56 PM

And burn :)

DOM

08-19-2014, 02:53 PM

I can understand the reasoning behind some changes, but why would you ever play Marsh Flats over Bloodstained Mires?!

iamajellydonut

08-19-2014, 03:28 PM

I can understand the reasoning behind some changes, but why would you ever play Marsh Flats over Bloodstained Mires?!

Just because it makes the deck match doesn't mean it makes a difference. Unless you have a Taiga, you can search up nothing with a Bloodstained Mire that you can't search up with Marsh Flats. Hell, I borrowed Polluted Deltas for one bout in an effort to make it look like I was playing BUG and am running Marsh Flats right now because someone borrowed two of my Marsh Flats.

HammerAndSickled

08-19-2014, 03:35 PM

iamajellydonut

08-19-2014, 04:19 PM

You say that like Taiga is the blowout of the century when in many cases it's suboptimal deck design. By sharp contrast, there is incredible value to be gained by turn 0-2 information. Or not giving a shit about petty mind games and not paying $100 on a set of fetches you literally cannot use in any other deck.

Edit: When the hell did bluffing a basic Mountain become a thing?

Dice_Box

08-19-2014, 04:23 PM

Not exactly true, I use Bloodstained in TES.

iamajellydonut

08-19-2014, 04:26 PM

Not exactly true, I use Bloodstained in TES.

And Zombardment.

Punish Foolz

08-19-2014, 07:18 PM

Marsh Flats and polluted delta are the black fetches to run imo. You can represent a lot of different decks. I wouldn't run taiga in this deck, 4 groves, 3 wastes, and a badic forest is a lot of nonblack sources for a deck trying to cast hymns and Liliana.

Punish Foolz

08-19-2014, 07:30 PM

HammerAndSickled

08-20-2014, 01:06 AM

Maybe this kind of thing only matters to me because I play Lands. Often I spend game 1 noting all the lands my opponent plays in order to deduce how best to cut them off. Using Ghost Quarter I can pin someone's only Swamp and use Wastes and Ports to keep them off of double B all game, for example. So if someone plays a Flats I'd probably write (0 T 0 M) on my notes sheet from the get-go.

iamajellydonut

08-20-2014, 01:14 AM

So if someone plays a Flats I'd probably write (0 T 0 M) on my notes sheet from the get-go.

I mean, you could probably safely write that as soon as they identify their deck as Jund, but ok.

Nuke is Good

08-22-2014, 03:04 AM

I don't think Fetch choices are an accurate method of assessing what the deck is. If anything it's what they fetch/cast later on. I run Scalding Tarns in Reanimator since I didn't have a full set of polluted deltas.

On the topic of edict cards: I thought about running Imperial Edict for shits and giggles then realized it was a destroy effect and not a sac.

Dice_Box

08-22-2014, 03:17 AM

I think it can depend on what kind of event you are playing at. If you go to something like last years DC Legacy event, I would just assume that everyone has limitless moeny to make they deck of their choosing, thus I would be happy to read into the choices they make and the early cards they fetch and crack. But at lesser events, I can see this not being something that you can do as commonly so... yea.

The flip side is when you get people whom have EVERYTHING. These people are a pain. Gone up against RUG before, guy was running one of each blue fetch and four Foothills. Why? Because he owned them and they gave mixed messages. (And later I found out because he ran three fucking Needles main...) In TES I run Bloodstained in my spread to hide my opening and see if I can keep the other guy relaxed. You do not thing "Storm" when you see Bloodstained. Even if you crack it into a Blue Dual people do not jump to the same assumtions as they do off "Delta, Volc, Ponder."

Vandalize

08-22-2014, 08:45 AM

That's the thing, there's a real downside in playing a land that tells the opponent "I'm not playing a Taiga or basic Mountain." There's some marginal utility in perhaps representing a different deck (e.g. Flats>Swamp>DRS could be anything) but you have to weigh that against the information given in all those other games.

Any fetch > Swamp > DRS = Jund or Junk (mainly Jund).

If you want to hide your information, go for Fetch > Bayou > DRS. This could be Shardless BUG, Team America, Junk, Jund, and even Deathblade or GWb Maverick.

Hiding info is better suited for combo decks. Moreover, with all those Gitaxian Probes and Thoughtseizes running around (or even scouting), the advantage is almost always irrelevant.

DOM

08-22-2014, 10:47 AM

That is the thing, playing off-coloured fetchlands does not provide you a significant advantage and only messes up the unity. And if we operate with the belief that players might play off-coloured fetchlands to provide false information, the Bloodstained Mire you play can be interpreted as an off-coloured fetch as well...

tescrin

08-22-2014, 12:50 PM

Any fetch > Swamp > DRS = Jund or Junk (mainly Jund).

If you want to hide your information, go for Fetch > Bayou > DRS. This could be Shardless BUG, Team America, Junk, Jund, and even Deathblade or GWb Maverick.

Actually DMav/DGA has always run basic swamp and Shardless has started running a pair of basics to deal with the "Lose to blood moon" problem a bit better.

If you fetch into swamp it only really says you're probably not on Delver.

Punish Foolz

08-22-2014, 10:52 PM

The reasoning isn't that it provides a huge advantage, it's that theres no reason to represent the colors you're playing. It doesn't matter if it rarely matters, it gives your opponent an opportunity to make a mistake for almost no cost and you should be giving them that opportunity every time you get the chance.

AggroControl

08-23-2014, 12:50 AM

You can run RUG Delver off of Flooded Strands and Polluted Deltas and get the exact same effect as using Scalding Tarns and Misty Rainforests. Having a Flooded Strand sitting there uncracked on the play sends a whole different message than having a Scalding Tarn or Misty Rainforest. You are *much* more likely to get to Stifle a fetchland activation when you want to do it, during their turn, than if you had the on-color fetches. Having your opponent repeatedly fetch during your upkeep so that at least you don't gain a lot of tempo if you Stifle the fetch is a real pain.

ironclad8690

08-24-2014, 10:12 PM

Tried playing the non punishing version for a couple of weeks. Basically reid dukes old list. I won two tournaments in a row just on the back of maindeck loam lock (games against BUG Control, Esperblade, Patriot Delver, Aggro Loam, UWr Miracles, and Death and Taxes).

Recently I lost however (damn merfolk somehow), got ground out by a Death and Taxes that got both wilt leafs in games 2 and 3 (didnt even lili or hymn them into play, just aether vialed).

Against merfolk bob and thoughtseize did serious work against me game 1, and bob killed me game 2.

What I can say about this version is that you can pretty easily cast any spell you want whenever you want by fetching basics, but you get ground out without the lategame punishing fire engine.

Might try switching it up this week to throw the local players off my tail, but I have been impressed with the 4 basic version.

Punish Foolz

08-24-2014, 11:45 PM

I was thinking about trying the non fire version. Thea Steele has some open top 8s and an invitational top 8 so the deck is clearly good.

iamajellydonut

08-25-2014, 09:59 AM

I was actually going to run a Punishing Fire-less build as well this week. Punishing Fire lately has just been... lackluster. I've sort of been treating it almost like Force of Will in a meta without combo. I move to game two and instantly move to board out the Punishing Fires and a Grove without thinking. And for the games where they do make the cut and I do remember to keep them in, they instantly get hated out via Rest in Peace or some other Wasteland or some other variety of hate. Certainly solvable problems, but they're seeming more and more like unnecessary and avoidable problems. Punishing Fire is still amazing, and it's the difference between shitting on and getting shit on in a variety of matchups (such as the mirror), but I'm just wondering if there's not other cards that just do more against more with less.

aluisiocsantos

08-25-2014, 10:39 AM

Back in the rise of TNN around jan/feb I did the test and it was rather…lackluster. But I only testes it in a single tourney, with a single list.
I called it Diabolic Jund back then (started with 4 diabolic edicts, and then shifted to two):

3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Grim Lavamancer

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
1 Sylvan Library
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Diabolic Edict

1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Badlands
3 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Taiga
1 Mountain

SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Domri Rade

Maybe it should behave more like Shardless bug and bring in Toxic Deluge/Golgari Charm maindeck or somehting like that. Worth experimenting mor but I remember a series of situations in which I'd have wished I had Punshing Fire.

Whitefaces

08-25-2014, 02:17 PM

I've tried dropping P. Fire a couple of times but the combo is just so dominating in any fair matchup I just can't justify a reason to play without it.

I'm playing with a Golgari Charm MD at the moment. I've only played one night at my LGS with it but I played against three TNN decks out of four rounds so my experience with it is a bit biased (it was incredible).

iamajellydonut

08-25-2014, 02:40 PM

I'm playing with a Golgari Charm MD at the moment. I've only played one night at my LGS with it but I played against three TNN decks out of four rounds so my experience with it is a bit biased (it was incredible).

I've always been under the impression that the maindeck as a cure-all is where Golgari Charm is supposed to be. Blow out an Empty the Warrens. Kill a True Name Nemesis. Kill an unflipped Delver of Secrets. Get around Mother of Runes. Sneak in for Sylvan Library. Fucking shitty deathtouch birds... Then games two and three you board it out for more specific hate.

Whitefaces

08-26-2014, 06:16 AM

I've always been under the impression that the maindeck as a cure-all is where Golgari Charm is supposed to be. Blow out an Empty the Warrens. Kill a True Name Nemesis. Kill an unflipped Delver of Secrets. Get around Mother of Runes. Sneak in for Sylvan Library. Fucking shitty deathtouch birds... Then games two and three you board it out for more specific hate.

I'm still unsure, it seems like a very high variance card to have maindeck. Some matchups I can see it being pretty dead, but the potential is there. It did win two 'unwinnable' games two weeks ago. G1 vs Merfolk, me 2 life and Bob. Him, lord, 2x TNN and mutavault. He swung full out, I P. Fired the lord, blocked muta then charmed to get rid of the TNNs. I was then able to play play liliana and hold up bolt for the muta and take over the game. And G1 vs Esper Deathblade, I fell behind on board thanks to him being on the play and landing a DRS. Charm ended up eating 2x TNN and a Baleful Strix and my goyfs smashed face. I even used it in another game to regen two goyfs that were blocked by two strix.

I'll be playing with it MD again tonight and let you know.

Vandalize

08-26-2014, 10:12 AM

Have people tested Slaughter Games in sideboard? It's a really good SB card in Jund Nic Fit, and I haven't seen many lists with it in this thread. Miracles is a good matchup, but Slaughter Games just kills them. Exile Entreat the Angels, and you have Punishing Fire to deal with Jace.

It's also boss against Sneak and Show, by removing one of their combo pieces (either Grisel or Emrakul, or even Sneak Attack). Average against storm-based combo (remove Tendrils against ANT and Burning Wish against T.E.S), if you manage to survive until turn 3~4.

My list for reference:

Lands [23]
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
2 Badlands
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Swamp

Creatures [15]
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bloodbraid Elf

Spells [22]
4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam

Sideboard [15]
2 Duress
2 Slaughter Games
2 Golgari Charm
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Diabolic Edict

Slaughter Games came into REB/Pyroblast slots, which I haven't been using for a while.

aluisiocsantos

08-26-2014, 10:20 AM

I use the card (3 of) on my 4Colors Loam list, but I wonder if it's as effective with Jund, like, Jund can probably pull it off on Miracles, but it doesn't have mox speed to top Show and Tell and Storm, for example.. But I think it's an excellent card and worth the test, apart the slow speed.

Another bad thing about it is dramatically raising the amount of 4cc cards for BOB to draw.

Whitefaces

08-26-2014, 10:39 AM

Miracles is a good matchup, but Slaughter Games just kills them. Exile Entreat the Angels, and you have Punishing Fire to deal with Jace.

If you can't find a decay and they manage to get countertop online they can just float a two and tick up with Jace.

I've played it in Nicshift and it was great there, but I fear it's a bit too slow for normal Jund lists. I'd love to be proved wrong though as I like the card a lot, I'll give it a spin tonight ad put two in my SB.

iamajellydonut

08-26-2014, 10:42 AM

Vandalize

08-26-2014, 10:52 AM

Ignoring the rest of the list, the issue with Slaughter Games is the same as any card that costs more mana than you're willing to spend... It's too slow and doesn't do anything that other cards don't do similarly. Yes, you can try to name Tendrils of Agony, but you won't live long enough. Yes, you can name Terminus, but then again you could have just targeted it with Surgical Extraction instead. I love the card in Modern (fukken Scapeshift). I think it's neat as a 1x in Nic Fit. But in a deck where the curve effectively caps at 3cc, it's simply not viable.

Why is this still in the deck against Miracles after game 1?

Actually, you can live until turn 4 against ANT with Thoughtseizes, Hymn and Lilianas. They usually goldfish for turn 3, and needs more time to setup Past in Flames if you disrupted their hand.

I find Lightning Bolt and Life from the Loam worse than Punishing Fire against Miracles. I usually board -3 Bolt -1 LftL -1 Punishing Fire +2 Slaughter Games +2 Duress +1 Maelstrom Pulse.

Whitefaces

08-26-2014, 11:25 AM

Why is this still in the deck against Miracles after game 1?

Do people board all P. Fires out? I've not actually talked to other Jund players about SBing for this matchup, but have usually left in two...though it's dependent on my SB at the time. I've found them really useful when under countertop to check the top of their library constantly to try and land something else as well as picking off their cliques, snaps, venser etc. We do have Pyroblasts after board too for Jace, though.

iamajellydonut

08-26-2014, 11:44 AM

Do people board all P. Fires out? I've not actually talked to other Jund players about SBing for this matchup, but have usually left in two...though it's dependent on my SB at the time. I've found them really useful when under countertop to check the top of their library constantly to try and land something else as well as picking off their cliques, snaps, venser etc. We do have Pyroblasts after board too for Jace, though.

The issue with Punishing Fires isn't that they're not useful utility. Sometimes I'll keep two around if I see a lot of Cliques and a Stoneforge or I might keep a single copy in if the mood strikes. But otherwise they occupy a significant portion of the deck and, aside from one-ofs like Edict, are easily the weakest link of the deck in terms of the Miracles matchup. Even weaker than Bolt if you consider that with twenty-four land list you can cut a Grove of the Burnwillows without as many Punishing Fires. When it comes down to it and you're looking to put in Red Elemental Blasts and Pithing Needles and Surgical Extractions or Null Rod and Bitterblossom if you have them or Duress or Ancient Grudge depending on the deck, what do you remove first? Dark Confidant? Motherfucking Liliana of the Veil? Considering Vandalize's list has a lot of stuff that doesn't make sense and his board contains very few answers to Miracles, he can sort of justify keeping Punishing Fires in kind of, but what's our excuse? The deck should already be largely tailored for U/x/x Delver and Miracles as that's what the meta largely consists of. If you pick up half your deck after game one and groan that you have so many things to get rid of, you are doing it wrong.

Punish Foolz

08-27-2014, 09:38 AM

I actually don't like maelstrom pulse against miracles. Most of the time they end entreat, untap, and kill you. It's better to just not let the game get to that point. I'm not an expert on this deck, but I've never lost to miracles because our threat density is too high for them to successfully grind us out. I board out bolts, loam, edict, 2 fires and bring in 2 duress, 2 extraction, and 2 blasts. Sometimes I deviate from that exact board plan though, I might bring in pithing needle if I think it's best at the time, or deed if the player is particularly aggressive with entreat, or golgari charm if they have more copies of rest in peace than usual, or the 3rd duress if I want to maximize my chances of seeing their hand on turn one.

aluisiocsantos

08-27-2014, 10:47 AM

Vs Miracles is one of the matches in which I love Pernicious Deed. You just leave it there - it's hard to respond even with Countertop and they can never combo.

Nuke is Good

08-27-2014, 10:59 AM

The person I playtest with is unfortunately a Miracles expert and helped me build Jund. So he knows my deck and his deck well.

Sideboarding for me looks like:

-2 DRS
-2 Goyf
-1 Punishing Fire
-1 Lightning Bolt
-2 Thoughtseize (If on the draw)

+1 or 2 Pithing Needle
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Scavenging Ooze
+1 Chains of Mephistopheles
+2 Golgari Charm
+1 Pernicious Deed

aluisiocsantos

08-27-2014, 11:01 AM

Why Scavenging Ooze in this match though?
The rest looks pretty solid for me.

Nuke is Good

08-27-2014, 11:03 AM

Why Scavenging Ooze in this match though?
The rest looks pretty solid for me.

I expect Miracles to bring in RIP making Goyf a 0/1. At least Scavenging Ooze is a 2/2 regardless of grave hate.

Punish Foolz

08-27-2014, 11:59 AM

Between discard spells and decay, I think you only have to worry about one resolved rest in peace. Goyf grows quickly after dealing with it and you have to close the game out once you get ahead and goyf is the best card at doing that. I would rather play around it than board out win conditions for more reactive cards

iamajellydonut

08-27-2014, 12:18 PM

I actually don't like maelstrom pulse against miracles.

Good. Because it's not great against Miracles or anything else and it's not supposed to be. Maelstrom Pulse is purely a maindeck cure-all. There are some scenarios where you leave it in, but mostly you're looking to replace it with stronger hate in game 2 while leaving your core intact.

Between discard spells and decay, I think you only have to worry about one resolved rest in peace. Goyf grows quickly after dealing with it and you have to close the game out once you get ahead and goyf is the best card at doing that. I would rather play around it than board out win conditions for more reactive cards

Agreed. That boarding process is bad. Simply because they have RIP somewhere in the seventy-five doesn't mean you have to board out everything that flirts with the graveyard. If you reach the point where you're choosing to board in literal Grizzly Bears, you've already lost the game. Boarding in Golgari Charms and Oozes... Seriously?

Punish Foolz

08-27-2014, 01:17 PM

I think you're showing too much respect. Either to your friend as a magic player, or miracles as a deck.

Dice_Box

08-27-2014, 01:31 PM

Jund is an Answers deck. Boarding in something like Ooze with the express idea of using it as a 2/2 and not an answer to an issue is a wasted slot.

Nuke is Good

08-27-2014, 02:25 PM

I guess I stand corrected then with the boarding process. Didn't think it would meet that much negative feedback, sorry to even post it.

Punish Foolz

08-27-2014, 02:38 PM

I apologize if I offended you, my input was only intended to further the discussion. I hope you don't let this stop you from posting in the future, as we can all learn from each other about this deck we love.

iamajellydonut

08-27-2014, 02:44 PM

about this deck we love.

Let's be honest. It's not so much "love" as it is "sexy fling for a year and a half got an apartment now we're kinda stuck together".

Punish Foolz

08-27-2014, 02:47 PM

Let's be honest. It's not so much "love" as it is "sexy fling for a year and a half got an apartment and now we're kinda stuck together".

*deck I love* fixed

aluisiocsantos

08-27-2014, 03:15 PM

Punish Foolz

08-27-2014, 03:36 PM

I think you would only want 1 charm and needle a piece though. The best way to sideboard is to try to increase your odds of winning and decrease your opponents as a result of that, not jam a bunch of good cards in to create an environment where they can't win. Especially against miracles, you're going to get to topdeck mode and random hate cards will practically lose the game for you. Learning the difference between trying to win and trying to not lose can take a while to truly learn

iamajellydonut

08-27-2014, 03:52 PM

That said, still I thin kthe reasoning is solid, minus the Ooze. I can see uses for Charm, such as attemtping to destroy Counterbalance or RIP (say, use Charm for RIP and save Decay for Counterbalance) so it's okay I guess.

The idea of "there's an enchantment I dislike therefore I will bring in something that kills enchantments" is a good enough notion. It just doesn't pan out well.

Golgari Charm can't reliably destroy Counterbalance. Sure, it can and has and will happen when they have no working Top on the board and you have a good amount of luck, but it can't reliably or even semi-reliably destroy Counterbalance. Golgari Charm is being brought in to deal with, and only with, Rest in Peace. A card that's run as a 2x if that. It's just not worth the inclusion. There's not enough opportunity for it to function. There's no creatures to kill outside of Vendilion Clique. There's nothing to regenerate. It just kills Rest in Peace. Sure, you value your Abrupt Decays a little more once their deck choice is revealed, but that doesn't mean your Abrupt Decays are strictly for use against Counterbalance. Thoughtseize. Hymn to Tourach. Red Elemental Blast. Pithing Needle naming Top. Maelstrom Pulse. Pernicious Deed. Liliana ultimate. An opportune Surgical Extraction. Sheer dumb luck. All of these are viable agents against Counterbalance. Abrupt Decay is easily the most straightforward and reliable answer to Counterbalance, but it's far from the only.

With that in mind, Abrupt Decay is free to shit on Rest in Peace. As is Thoughtseize. As is Hymn to Tourach. As are Dark Confidant and Bloodbraid Elf. As is Deed and any other random crap floating around. You don't need Golgari Charm to kill Rest in Peace. It's an exceptionally narrow usage and one that the deck cannot afford to employ. "But you can discard it with Liliana!", if anyone was so tempted to say, is not a good excuse either.

tescrin

08-27-2014, 04:03 PM

IMO, Ooze isn't that bad. I'd bring it in for some piece of discard (probably a Hymn) as odd as that may sound to you. IMO, Hatebears in the side aren't just for hate; they come in to deal with dumb cards in the main that are ineffective. Jund will likely get them hellbent at some point and drawing dead cards against miracles (or having more dead cards they can Jace you into.)

An example from this last week (as Junk) where I brought in Gaddock Teeg against Pox. He looked at the card and was confused; he blatently asked "Why would you board these in?" The answer is trivial; a bear is better than Liliana against Pox. Lily works with their game plan and against mine in a deck where her card advantage is either nonexistent or her VCA doesn't occur. A bear beats for 2 and makes my topdecks better.

Chastising him over a Scooze that may well be a game-winning topdeck after yet-another Terminus occurs isn't fair IMO. Replacing a Goyf or DRS; sure; terrible move. Replacing a dead card like Wasteland#3/4, Grove #4, or some such seems just fine. I'd say the same about charm.

Unlike other MUs you will make your land drops and like almost any deck in legacy; you run "too many" lands for your deck due to wasteland prominence. Because of this I'd say dropping a Grove + Wasteland (or possibly two wastes) for Charm + Scooze gives you "real cards" in situations you were going to lose.

aluisiocsantos

08-27-2014, 04:07 PM

The Source usar Einherjar, one of the world's best Miracles player, did a pretty good topic about beating Miracles here anyway, everybody should take a look, if they havent: http://blog.mtgmadness.com/index.php/taming-miracles/philipp-schonegger

Punish Foolz

08-27-2014, 05:43 PM

I'll definitely check that out when I get off work

iamajellydonut

08-27-2014, 06:04 PM

I'll definitely check that out when I get off work

It basically says "stick non-creature permanents and get rid of Top". Which is still sound advice and the article is still worth a read.

Anyway, tescrin, everyone has brought in or left in various and relatively useless hatebears and the like, but it's done so against decks that don't comprise a significant portion of the meta. Playing against Burn and looking to get rid of about half your deck? Shit yeah bring in Teeg, Lavamancer, whatever random shit is lying around.

But this is Miracles we're talking about. There shouldn't be many cards that don't already do work and there should be a bunch of cards vying for Public Enemy No. 1 in the sideboard. There's no room for those random filler cards.

Clown of Tresserhorn

08-28-2014, 12:32 AM

I played this at a local store tonight. Played Thea Steele's version with 2 sideboard changes. Went 4-0 but had to go to 3 games every match.

Round 1: Dead guy Ale
Game 1: I almost eek it out, but lose to a topdecked hypnotic specter. Can't be mad.
Game 2: I'm on the play and have a turn 1 deathrite into sillyness turn 2.
Game 3: I wasteland 2 scrublands and easily win with goyfs

Round 2: Grixis Delver
Game 1: He mulls to 6, I have turn 2 and 3 hymn. He land delver + young pyromancer on successive turns, but doesn't flip delver. I have the golgari charm.
Game 2: I draw lots of lands and get crushed easily.
Game 3: We trade back and forth, but eventually, I kill too many creatures with an uncontested goyf. By the time he can deal, he's at 2 and I sylvan into a bolt.

Round 3: Merfolk
Game 1: My hymn gets 2 creatures, basically blanking his jitte. I draw really well this game, as I needed to hit 3 creature removal spells to stay in it.
Game 2: He's on the play and has 2 jittes. By the time I could cast deed, I'm dead.
Game 3: I have turn 1 grim lavamancer and land 2 lilianas. A late game goyf finishes it off

Round 4: Punishing Jund
Game 1: He's on the play, and has deathrite + liliana. I draw enough removal to barely keep up, but land a dark confidant. We both have confidant + Goyf, but I hit running bloodbraids. Man that card is tits.
Game 2: He kills my shaman and wastes my land. I don't draw a land until it's too late.
Game 3: I get double shaman and a goyf while he stumbles on mana. By the time he can deal with goyf, I have him dead on board to my shamans.

I haven't played the punishing fires version, but is it even necessary? I lOVE the high number of 1 cc spells in the deck and don't really feel the need to add more 2cc spells. Am I alone in this sentiment?

Punish Foolz

08-28-2014, 06:48 AM

Vandalize

08-28-2014, 07:28 AM

Punishing Fire is great in this deck, but I wouldn't say it's the best card choice in some metagames. It's basically a resilient removal spell in the trade of having a worse manabase.

Non-Punishing Fire lists have more duals and Fetchlands (and can play a basic land of each type). They can also play 4 Wastelands (on a 23 land manabase).

Still, removal is half the reason this deck works, so I'd go with 4 Bolts and 4 Decays.

Myelectronicdays

08-28-2014, 09:24 AM

Thinking of sleeving up Jund for the next couple of months.. but doing with the non punishing version. Id rather have a more stable base..and having 4 bolts and 4 decays feels like enough removal.

once one grove gets wasted... punishing is a pretty crappy card to have. I mean I obviously see the bonus of having the combo in.. but going to try without for a bit.. see how it goes.

Punish Foolz

08-28-2014, 10:28 AM

Even without fires, I'm sure 3 decays is enough. Card is not great in multiples and the only decks that play 4 do so because they don't have access to bolt

Myelectronicdays

08-28-2014, 10:33 AM

Even without fires, I'm sure 3 decays is enough. Card is not great in multiples and the only decks that play 4 do so because they don't have access to bolt

definately agree. only running 3 myself.

aluisiocsantos

08-28-2014, 10:52 AM

I'm pretty sure you'd still like something like Diabolic Edict or Golgari Charm, because you know, TNN.

Myelectronicdays

08-28-2014, 11:01 AM

yeah going to run something close to steeles list with a golgari charm MD

iamajellydonut

08-28-2014, 12:02 PM

You would have to play the fires version, I could write a book on the advantages of the punishing version but I don't have time for that. The fireless version is good too, but punishing jund is just better imo.

You don't have to run Punishing Fire. It's not like trying to run Sneak and Show without the Sneak or the Show. Punishing Fire is run because it is/was the strongest tool at the given moment. However, what I, and apparently some others, are wondering is if its time has passed. If a stronger more aggressive mana base and another variation of tools don't outweigh recurring spot damage.

This week I played without Punishing Fire. I went 3-1 and got 4th after breakers out of 11.

Round one I played against a solid rogue deck builder and won 2-1 after I played appropriate hate against his deck.
Round two I played against Death and Taxes and lost 0-2 as he won the die roll and had great hands and landed Batterskulls while I had notable plays such as drawing with Sylvan Library and seeing Thoughtseize, land, and the other Sylvan Library. Then shuffling and seeing land, the other Sylvan Library, and Land.
Round three I played against Reanimator and won 2-0 after I played appropriate hate against his deck.
Round four I played against Manaless Dredge and won 2-1 after I played appropriate hate against his deck.

I understand that the matchups weren't exactly against top tier decks, but they were still relevant decks and it's not unbelievable to have this be what you play against at a given Star City or good sized local event. And of these four decks, Punishing Fire would have only been good against one of them and seeing it in this scenario wouldn't have even made a difference. I was actually pretty thrilled with the change. Not drawing into non-black lands really streamlined the deck. Having that extra library made a difference. Having complementary mana costs to support that Library, notably Bolt, also made a difference. As well as the sheer "get there" power of Lightning Bolt in general.

Punish Foolz

08-28-2014, 12:10 PM

I meant he would have to play fires to understand the differences. It's more than it looks like on paper. Delvers and stoneforge mystics are top 8ing every weekend, fire makes those match ups almost a bye. If you can't run out of removal, the creature decks can't beat you.

tescrin

08-28-2014, 12:19 PM

IMO Bolt is probably the way to go. Jund needs to do something better than others. It's not a better Pfire deck than Lands and it's not a better Cascade deck than Shardless. PFire has been psuedo-hated out by TNN and the changes that it brought (D&T's serra avenger, TNN itself, Tombstalker, SoFaI being everywhere) and it doesn't help that PFire takes 3 mana to start working in a field full of Delver and D&T.

Jund becoming a bigger "RUG Delver" deck by simply beating you to death quickly could well be a reasonable remedy; while shoring it up against Burn, Combo (faster clock), and simply having a not-garbage manabase. Also, Sweepers (Deluge, GCharm) have come into existence and popularity since Punishing Jund was a thing; making punishing less requisite.

Even with PFire; Jund's lack of consistency (library manipulation) and desire to go late game against more consistent decks that also want to go late game (Miracles, Shardless) is the difficulty. By saying you just want to win in the midgame you may carve a niche for the deck again.

EDIT: ninja'd. Grove is still easy to cut off with a wasteland and Pfires are pretty bad without that. They're also mediocre with Mom on the table and require a lot of mana; against decks that are all looking to manascrew you.

Using Pfire as a crutch against decks that (mostly) run 12 creatures stops making sense. Against D&T you should use sweepers and against Delver you already carry as much removal as they have threats. Pfire is good for Walkers and Lily; but again, I think Loam decks do it better.

iamajellydonut

08-28-2014, 12:20 PM

It's more than it looks like on paper. Delvers and stoneforge mystics are top 8ing every weekend, fire makes those match ups almost a bye. If you can't run out of removal, the creature decks can't beat you.

Right. That's why Jund is so prevalent and dominating and never gets ruthlessly hosed and shit on.

aluisiocsantos

08-28-2014, 12:23 PM

PFire has been psuedo-hated out by TNN and the changes that it brought (D&T's serra avenger, TNN itself, Tombstalker).
I agree to this much, however it's just 3 cards which P.Fire is unnefective against 200 other creatures it does kill in Legacy.

Lightning bolt specially shines in the combo matchup when you need just that extra damage to get the kill, much like Zoo used to do it and what not, however Punishing Fire, which is generally sided out on combos, shines against fair matchups, such as Death and Taxes specially, Elves, Stoneforge and Delvers.

In my current build (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25376-Deck-Jund&p=815189&viewfull=1#post815189) I try running a good split, with 3 Grove, 3 Punishing Fire and 2 Bolts. It doesn't go to either extreme, but can take care of itself most of the time.

Punish Foolz

08-28-2014, 12:35 PM

Fire makes Liliana much better at killing tnn and tombstalker, serra avenger is only played in death and taxes which is a favorable match up, and shardless bug is favorable because of punishing fire. Every creature in bug dies to it except goyf, which we can answer easily. I've only lost to bug once and that was against Andrew Tenjum after he decayed my library and cliqued my fire to the bottom. Jund can't be the best at a particular thing, that's not where it's strength lies. Punishing fire helps create card advantage by killing almost every relevant creature in legacy. There's only one creature that bolt kills that fire doesn't and it's played in a fringe deck. In our game one, Tenjum resolved 3 ancestral visions and still couldn't beat fire.

iamajellydonut

08-28-2014, 12:55 PM

There's only one creature that bolt kills that fire doesn't and it's played in a fringe deck.

It's not about whether Bolt is better than Punishing Fire or not. It's a question of if other things are better than Punishing Fire, and Bolt happens to be one of the cards that maxes out to fill the void created by the loss of some of our spot removal.

Punish Foolz

08-28-2014, 01:26 PM

It's highly likely that I'm biased because I've done well and put a lot of hours into the fires version. That said, I'll give the non fire version a reluctant try.

iamajellydonut

08-28-2014, 01:41 PM

It's highly likely that I'm biased because I've done well and put a lot of hours into the fires version. That said, I'll give the non fire version a reluctant try.

I was doing 24*Land, 4*Grove, 3*PFire, 2*Bolt, 1*Library. So, what I did was go down to 23*Land, add 2*Bolt, add 1*Library, and for the filler slot I put in a Disfigure, but that was more of a last minute snap decision. For my lands I was already running 4*Wasteland and was going to try out a Cabal Pit because "why not!", but it turns out I didn't own one (couldn't find it at least), so I replaced the remaining 3*Groves with one fetch, one dual, and one more basic Swamp.

Punish Foolz

08-28-2014, 02:04 PM

I'm currently running 23 lands, 4 being grove. I'll probably go with a bayou, wasteland, basic swamp, and a taiga. Replace my 3 fires with 2 bolts and a pulse. Without fires, I'm not a fan of maindeck loam so that will likely become a second sylvan library

tescrin

08-28-2014, 02:11 PM

In Junk I have 11 removal IIRC (4 Lily, 4 Decay, 2 Plow, 1 Pit; equips can sometimes kill stuff) and it treats me fine. Having 12 removal with Bolts being a more applicable card (always useful) should be fine. Pfire is a prison card that's *extremely bad* against Lingering Souls and Lingering Souls is good in the meta (Miracles, TNN, SFM.)

When you're spending 12 mana to kill 5 mana worth of garbage creatures; at some point you just have to start playing legacy again.

Having psuedo-infinite removal is also less good when the big decks run 0-12 creatures. Pfire was, IIRC, probably for hosing Maverick primarily; which is no longer necessary as Miracles does that pretty well. Your MU against decks that make up 1% of the meta goes down, but it should go up against.. everything else.

Punish Foolz

08-28-2014, 02:29 PM

I think that's a bold statement. Punishing jund has 4 open top 8s this year and a bunch of top 16s. It's clearly good and I feel a lot of people are trying to oversimplify a comparison that's not simple at all. Nothing in legacy is black and white and neither is this.

iamajellydonut

08-28-2014, 02:31 PM

Pfire is a prison card that's *extremely bad* against Lingering Souls and Lingering Souls is good in the meta (Miracles, TNN, SFM.)

When you're spending 12 mana to kill 5 mana worth of garbage creatures; at some point you just have to start playing legacy again.

That's not really a fair example as it implies that other cards fare better against Lingering Souls which is false. The whole point of Lingering Souls is that it's economically a pain in the balls to deal with no matter how you try to get rid of it outside pure graveyard hate and sweepers.

aluisiocsantos

08-28-2014, 02:33 PM

For some reason I ha dthe extreme opposite impression about Punishing Fire vs Lingering Souls. I wonder what's your opinion about Lightning Bolt vs Lingering Souls o_O

EDIT: Also I take that most decks that used to run the card exchanged it for TNN. So.. Deadguy Ale runs it right now?

Punish Foolz

08-28-2014, 02:39 PM

Fire is definitely better against souls than any other spot removal spell in legacy.

tescrin

08-28-2014, 03:43 PM

My point wasn't that Lingering Souls is the thing that's keeping Punishing Jund down; simply that it doesn't help.

@aluis
It is certainly fringe, relegated to GWB decks (DMav, DGA, Junk) and some Esper lists. (Unsure, but I'd assume most of them acknowledge Miracles enough to put some number in the deck by now.)

@Punish Foolz
(If we're gonna argue about something trivial) I'll point out that Maelstrom Pulse is better by about 8-9 mana and probably a 10 point health swing or so.

I'm certainly not saying you're supposed to spot remove souls very often. I'm saying that PFire is not meant for this meta and that Souls is a fantastic example of why. Playing the grindy game means you spend 12 mana to remove garbage. Playing with bolt means you just race the guy and screw his tokens. PFire vs. Bolt changes the entire way the deck is meant/able to play; and in the current meta I'd say for the better. Instead of giving the opponent life and forcing the grindy game, you cut the number of turns down.

Jund was a fast beatdown deck that disrupted the opponent. Then Lily and Pfire were evolved into the list as the game became grind fests. IMO, the list will do better when you evolve the list to the meta somewhat.

Punish Foolz

08-28-2014, 03:52 PM

As long as creatures with toughness 2 or less are being played in legacy, punishing fire is well positioned. Jund can't play a beatdown game in a word with tnn. If it weren't for counter magic, the same could be said for rug delver. And lingering souls makes up almost zero of the meta so it's almost a non factor. The meta right now is delver, stoneforge mystic, deathrite shaman, death and taxes, and miracles. Fire is good against all but miracles. I'd say it's well positioned

iamajellydonut

08-28-2014, 04:14 PM

The meta right now is delver, stoneforge mystic, deathrite shaman, death and taxes, and miracles. Fire is good against all but miracles. I'd say it's well positioned

While it's certainly a good call to build with Miracles and Delver in mind, to say that they are the meta is... wrong. They are significant players. Contrary to what the linked-to-the-point-of-spam Star City results would have you believe they are not the only players. And if you were to believe otherwise I would call you a liar or delusional. What about Sneak&Show and Storm and Reanimator and Burn and Painter and UR Delver and RUG Delver and Loam and random rogue builds and Lands? Holy shit Lands. At the last Star City I went to I played against "43" Lands and 12 Post before I got my first loss and another "43" Lands later. And I only played against a single Miracles (my first loss). So, don't try to play that decks that don't run bittie creatures are mythical beings. Because the truth is that they can be the format just as easily as Delver variants.

DOM

08-28-2014, 04:29 PM

I for one am running three Punishing Fires and two Lightning Bolts and am fairly happy with the mix.

Punish Foolz

08-28-2014, 04:49 PM

Punish Foolz

08-28-2014, 04:53 PM

DOM, I'm also running that split. I believe it's the stock build atm.

iamajellydonut

08-28-2014, 05:20 PM

If you want to take down a tournament, you have to beat the decks that are winning the most. Every round you win, the chances of running into smaller parts of the format go down. It does you no good to beat them just get beaten at the top tables once you reach them

Top tables like this? http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=7959&d=245815&f=LE

Again, for every time you have a top 8 that features fourteen Elf decks and a Death and Taxes, you get something like the above.

tescrin

08-28-2014, 05:29 PM

Phrased another way; what does PFire do for the deck in this meta that Bolt doesn't? Again, I'm playing a deck (Junk) with 11 removal, which is often enough. Why is it going from 13-infinite makes the difference for you?

I don't see why Bolt against the top decks wouldn't do as good. You simply don't need infinite removal against 12-creature decks; and other decks seem readily able to beat these same decks with ~12 or less removal in the main. Why does a deck that should be faster than Junk/Shardless need to go into "lockdown" mode?

Why can Shardless beat TNN decks with a beatdown plan but Jund has to pfire everything off of the board and Lily it? It's a contradiction.

aluisiocsantos

08-28-2014, 05:46 PM

iamajellydonut

08-28-2014, 06:09 PM

Definately! I kind of want to try out a version with more mass removals as well. Sorta try looking at Shardless BUG and see what's his winning points, and see what could be done here. The SCG list that got first recently has Toxic Deluge MD and an extra one SB. Plus two Golgari Charms. 4 Decays, and surprisingly few counters. But they do have a great weapon from pre-TNN which is Creeping Tar Pit. The GR counterpart is Raging Ravine, which was widely used in Modern, I wonder if anyone has ever tackled it in legacy. Too slow? The good part is that it builds up.

You can't always draw direct comparisons from BUG to Jund. The fact of the matter is that they're very different decks, and your surprise at the lack of counters indicates you haven't had too much experience with Shardless. Going relatively in order...

Shardless lives and breathes off card advantage. If it blows up a few Agents with a Toxic Deluge, it doesn't matter as they'll just flood the board again. Toxic Deluge is great in Jund's board, but by sharp comparison, if we pop a Toxic Deluge and lose our Deathrite or Dark Confidant, it kind of blows outside of scenarios where the opponent flooded the board and we get a fair bit of card advantage out of the mix.

Maxed out Abrupt Decays is for a good bunch of reasons. The most prominent being that, without counters and without basics, Abrupt Decay is often times one of the only available answers available to the deck in response to problematic cards like Blood Moon and therefore must be on-hand as often as possible. Speaking of which, the lack of counters is probably the most straight-forward concept. Cascading into Spell Pierce sucks.

Creeping Tar Pit is tempting, but is also not worthy of consideration. Shardless very rarely gives a damn about their turn one. So, putting a Tar Pit into play tapped on turn one is a very good use of time unless you have a Deathrite Shaman in hand. Also, Shardless generates an absurd amount of mana in the long term. It's simply a matter of drawing more land than you can actually use either naturally or off of things like Ancestral Visions. With that regard, it's almost like a UB Horizon Canopy. Only it dodges Abrupt Decay and Jace and Liliana and eats planeswalkers for breakfast all day every day. We can't make as good of use of off-color totally blockable CIPT manlands that cost four as they can with Creeping Tar Pit. Treetop Village is probably the most viable of the bunch for Jund simply due to its activation cost, but the problem still remains that it doesn't tap for black and comes into play tapped.

aluisiocsantos

08-28-2014, 06:19 PM

I've actually had quite a few matches against Shardless, but I think Shardless is slightly favorable for jund, specially because it doesn't run TNN. It's like one of the few blue decks that stayed similar ever since Legacy Jund became a thing, so I supposed I never noticed much because I've won the match most of the time to start caring. (It's quite awesome when you are able to land Chains of Mephistopheles in this match)

Regarding Toxic Deluge, while I mean it in a list without P.Fire, sort of to make up to it's abscense, being able to hit multiple creatures, I'm pretty sure that if you're in a table situation in which you have DRS, BOB and you're still losing, I don't think you're gonna mind using Toxic Deluge to save your ass.

Punish Foolz

08-28-2014, 06:23 PM

Jelly, I'm not sure what your intentions were with that link, but I would be fine trading places with any deck in that top 8.

iamajellydonut

08-28-2014, 06:26 PM

Jelly, I'm not sure what your intentions were with that link, but I would be fine trading places with any deck in that top 8.

My point was that it featured three Miracles, Storm, Dredge, and three Delver decks that Punishing Fire would only be marginal against.

Punish Foolz

08-28-2014, 06:32 PM

But bolt is barely better than fire in this match ups. Fire is better against delver because they are scared to counter it.

iamajellydonut

08-28-2014, 06:48 PM

But bolt is barely better than fire in this match ups.

It doesn't matter. This is about other shit vs. Punishing Fire suite. Two more Lightning Bolts just happens to be part of that "other shit".

Also, for the record, Bolt is always relevant. There's a reason you never board it out. There's a reason Thresh looks at all gross power and glory that white and black have to offer and still goes "nah, I'll choose red" for a single card. For all the laughing we do about how the imbalanced the three-for-one ABU cycle is, Lightning Bolt is the card that dares to spit in Ancestral Recall's face. When you're sideboarding against some sort of combo and debating whether or not to cut all or some of your Abrupt Decays or whether they might board this or run that and should you be worried, Lightning Bolt says to kill 'em all. Even if all Bolt ends up doing is ripping off the top and slapping some pile upside the head, it's done its job.

Vandalize

08-29-2014, 07:54 AM

Ok, so if we drop Punishing Fire + Groves, what would be the removal suit?

Something like this: 4 Bolt, 3~4 Decay, 1~2 Diabolic Edict, 1 Golgari Charm?

Toxic Deluge isn't great in this deck as it is in Shardless. We do run more creatures, and creatures are our only win condition. Shardless can use Deluge to wipe the board and play a Jace, the Mind Sculptor next turn that will win the game. So Golgari Charm is the way to go, maindeck-wise.

Lands [23]
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Swamp
1 Forest

Creatures [15]
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

Spells [22]
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Golgari Charm
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Sylvan Library

Sideboard [15]
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Duress
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Life from the Loam

This would be my first take on a Non-Fire Jund.

iamajellydonut

08-29-2014, 08:03 AM

That list is pretty much spot-on for what the stock list would look like. Though I don't know how much I'd value a basic Mountain over a second basic Swamp.

Vandalize

08-29-2014, 08:11 AM

That list is pretty much spot-on for what the stock list would look like. Though I don't know how much I'd value a basic Mountain over a second basic Swamp.

I probably wouldn't play either a Swamp#2 or a Mountain. Though a basic Mountain is pretty good with SB Lavamancers.

I will try to fit a singleton Thrun in my sideboard, as well. Pretty good against Miracles, after they've used Terminus once or twice.

aluisiocsantos

08-29-2014, 08:19 AM

Dice_Box

08-29-2014, 08:38 AM

iamajellydonut

08-29-2014, 08:50 AM

I probably wouldn't play either a Swamp#2 or a Mountain. Though a basic Mountain is pretty good with SB Lavamancers.

Well, I'm not really sure about the second Swamp either, but I know I'd definitely prefer it over a Mountain. Right now I have no idea what I'm doing for that 23rd land slot. As easy as it would seem to just add another fetch or add another dual, I don't particularly want either, and that boils my choices down to basic Swamp or something dumb like Cabal Pit. As I said in my earlier post, I went for the Swamp because it turns out that Cabal Pit, but I feel the Swamp worked out fine.

Also, Thrun seems unnecessary and bad. There are ways to beat Miracles with cards that are useful against more than one deck and aren't 4cc.

Vandalize

08-29-2014, 09:09 AM

I remember having copied a list to Cockatrice from way back when I was getting the cards for jund, in which it had Eternal Witness. I wonder if it would make sense, so we can get back some bolt/decay/charm/thoughtseize and use again.

I guess Eternal Witness is better suited in Nic Fit. She can be fetched by GSZ, and bring back more powerful bombs like Pernicious Deed, and the like. I'd play Grim Lavamancer as creatures #15~16. He's great against DRS/Delver decks, a must-answer.

I use Witness as a one of in modern. Bitch wins games. Not sure how effective she would be in Wasteland.format but I would test if you have the space.

Question, why are we looking at Fireless lists? Is it a budget thing because I do not know of many good reasons I would cut them shy of having a combo infested meta.

Just looking into other options.

Punishing Fire is REALLY mana intensive. And Wasteland can be a thing. We don't run Life from the Loam as an engine to power out Puninshing Fire.

It's basically trying to get a more stable manabase, and try to replace Punishing Fire with other types of removal.

iamajellydonut

08-29-2014, 09:23 AM

tescrin

08-29-2014, 11:06 AM

I use Witness as a one of in modern. Bitch wins games. Not sure how effective she would be in Wasteland.format but I would test if you have the space.

Question, why are we looking at Fireless lists? Is it a budget thing because I do not know of many good reasons I would cut them shy of having a combo infested meta.

IAJD and I are pushing testing with Bolts again because the deck probably needs to evolve with the meta in order to get back on top.

Legacy is about efficiency and Pfire is not. PFire is a lockdown engine that takes so few slots that it's worth it for decks that seek the long game. Jund could be better positioned against Combo, Miracles, and other decks simply by getting rid of it's Lifegain lands and swapping in burn. If you're having issues with high-creature decks, IMO, do what everyone else does and run various sweep effects.

It lowers the curve, adds slots, and cuts off a couple of turns worth of clock simply by not giving your opponent 5 life and instead bolting them end-game.

This may not be 100% correct; but IMO, Jund has this awkward dichotomy of prison lockdown as a backup to it's creature plan. Why? Because it's in color? No one needs that much removal. As a control type personality I get that it's fun to lock people out and grind them down; but it's probably more effective to play legacy. Maybe it's in response to SFM since everything becomes a threat; but then why not just destroy the Equip instead of burning every creature?

As an aside:
I don't see how it'd be the budget version when a set of Groves costs about as much as a Bayou, Goyf, or a set of fetches. I think it's being replaced with a Waste, Fetch, Bayou; which is ~$100 more expensive.

Also, IMO the decision is really "Do you run BBE or Punishing Fire" because they do opposite things. I think collectively they're the weakest cards in the deck, but one of the sets is necessary depending on if you're building something more controlling. As someone who's tested it; IMO Punishing Fire is better next to 1-2 Loam and Young Pyromancer; where the value and chance of lockdowns is higher. It also solves the TNN problem via swarming. This paragraph is all irrelevant however.

Dice_Box

08-29-2014, 11:23 AM

By Budget, I mean that some people have a lot of Duals and buying more lands might be a cost where running the duals might not be.

sdematt

08-29-2014, 08:41 PM

This is what Jund build I'm running:

3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Koth of the Hammer

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Punishing Fire
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
1 Diabolic Edict/Maelstrom Pulse

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
2 Badlands
3 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Swamp

SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb/Grafdigger's Cage

The possibility is open to run Grim Lavamancer maindeck again, especially if people plan on dropping Punishing Fires. Lavamancer is DAMN good.

Punishing Fires is a great control element. To say it's weak in the metagame really depends on the meta you're in. If you're with lots of Delver and SFM, it's going to be a great attrition element to your midrange deck. If you're fighting other midrange decks, such as Junk or Shardless, you're going to want fires to give you the edge since you'll be going for the long game. Koth/Liliana splitting is just to try since TNN, in my metagame, has been slowly being hated out of playability. Koth gives you bigger game against Miracles due to Haste and/or Emblem. More Sylvans give you distinct advantage that I think many are underestimating.

The board has a smattering. Grave hate, swarm hate, combo hate, and blue hate. Slaughter Games has really being doing work in the Miracles matchup as many of you know, and if you can slow combo down enough, taking their Burning Wishes or tutors is a good line of play.

Fires can be insanely mana intensive, but it doesn't have to be. You can just NOT use it and wait to play out threats, but I have to say that there will be many times when you want to have it. Even against Miracles where Counterbalance can shut you off, having ways to clear Ambush Vipers or to kill Jace out of nowhere can be relevant, at least in game 1.

-Matt

Whitefaces

08-30-2014, 08:10 AM

I would love to try out Koth, I've always been a fan of that card. But don't you want a few more mountains? Three doesn't seem anywhere near enough, especially as they are all wasteable.

Myelectronicdays

08-30-2014, 11:09 AM

I would love to try out Koth, I've always been a fan of that card. But don't you want a few more mountains? Three doesn't seem anywhere near enough, especially as they are all wasteable.

was thinking the same.. run into alot of miracles and would love to jam it. its unfortunate that it wont get flipped with bloodbraid...

and was wondering the same, are there enough mountains to make it effective enough?

Elfkid

08-30-2014, 11:17 AM

I prefer Nissa, Worldwaker, the untap its "meh", but the other its nice, opinions? ^^

Arsenal

08-30-2014, 11:26 AM

If we're going to try out new things in the #4 Liliana slot, could Domri Rade work? Cascade-able, his -2 is pretty good when you have Goyf on board, and he's raw card advantage if his +1 hits (Sylvan Library can help with this).

Myelectronicdays

08-30-2014, 11:27 AM

I prefer Nissa, Worldwaker, the untap its "meh", but the other its nice, opinions? ^^

4 mana for koth is pushing it.. and atleast his +1 lets you untap a mana you just spent to cast it.. and even attack on same turn.

nissa being 5 mana is a big no go to me.

DOM

08-30-2014, 11:30 AM

I am not a huge fan of the card, but I am interested in hearing how good the Koth was for you as well.

Regarding the Punishing Fire, this card seems to be great against most decks, but is rather weak against few others. However, I would not cut it as this cards plays a major role while battling fair decks and can also grant a slow but inevitable death to your opponent. 3-4 Grove of the Burnwillows does not damage the mana base significantly enough to neglect the package. What is more, Jund is not a tempo deck like RUG and adding a few Bolts will not change that, whereas recurable removal strengthens Jund's controlling side and I always viewed Jund as more or less a control deck.

If we're going to try out new things in the #4 Liliana slot, could Domri Rade work? Cascade-able, his -2 is pretty good when you have Goyf on board, and he's raw card advantage if his +1 hits (Sylvan Library can help with this).

I would argue that the 4th Liliana should remain where she is. The card is just too versatile to dismiss and helps to fight problematic matchups. And she is definitely better than Domri Rade.

Punish Foolz

08-30-2014, 11:43 AM

15 creatures is way too low to consider domri.

Punish Foolz

08-30-2014, 07:35 PM

In other news, Jund is the first seed going into the invitational top 8 tomorrow so yay for us!

Whitefaces

09-01-2014, 05:25 AM

A shame Jund couldn't do better at the SCG Invitational. If only he got paired against the BUG delver decks...

Punish Foolz

09-01-2014, 07:24 AM

It is a shame, but miracles is certainly a winnable matchup but our jund player made a few big mistakes. Casting a bloodbraid post combat for no reason, over extending into terminus etc

Whitefaces

09-01-2014, 07:50 AM

It is a shame, but miracles is certainly a winnable matchup but our jund player made a few big mistakes. Casting a bloodbraid post combat for no reason, over extending into terminus etc

Agreed, there were some pretty bad plays. I did appreciate the attack with a 0/1 Goyf though :cool:

His SB wasn't particularly set up well for miracles either. I swear by a pair of Deeds, they're so good against Miracles. Drop one and you have protection from Entreat and their nasty enchantments.

Myelectronicdays

09-01-2014, 11:16 AM

I'm running into alot of miracles in our meta.. been thinking about even going a little more MB heavy against them.. or even more sb.

Still curious how koth runs... just seems like not enough mountains in the deck... i still want to try him though. 4/4 attacking lands seems huge in the matchup.

Megadeus

09-01-2014, 11:34 AM

I feel like Jund should be favored against miracles. Is it not true?

iamajellydonut

09-01-2014, 11:36 AM

Still curious how koth runs... just seems like not enough mountains in the deck... i still want to try him though. 4/4 attacking lands seems huge in the matchup.

As fun as Koth is, I still don't see the reasoning behind him instead of either of the relevant Garruks or just more permanents like additional Sylvan Libraries or a Bitterblossom. Yay, he shuts out Miracles fast, but that's about all he does. I can't think of any other matchup where he's anything but an expensive clock. Which, if you want that, yay, but I figured that's what Tarmogoyf was for. I'd rather have something that can both go to town on the face and have a fair amount of utility.

iamajellydonut

09-01-2014, 11:38 AM

I feel like Jund should be favored against miracles. Is it not true?

It's favored in the sense that "we have cards that do good things". It sucks and it's risky in the sense that "they're exceptionally consistent while we have no filter and rely on card advantage and a semi-perfect combination of cards to get us there".

If you can nullify Sensei's Divining Top, you're in great shape.

If you can land and stick a Dark Confidant, you're in great shape.

If you can this. If you can that.

Myelectronicdays

09-01-2014, 11:50 AM

the other day vs miracles.. i had 2 bobs in play.. flipping liliana.. then bloodbraid... to kill me for exacts. thanks bob :/

iamajellydonut

09-01-2014, 11:56 AM

That feel when you're playing against Miracles and getting risky with Bob...

Two weeks ago I was playing against Miracles with Bob and had to get risky. I went down to one life and had no choice but to keep the Bob alive. He passes the turn. I flip Tombstalker.

Vandalize

09-01-2014, 12:01 PM

Actually, the cards I want to see the most against Miracles are Hymn and Liliana.

They durdle a lot in the first turns, trying to make their land drops. Hymn really messes them up, even if they have SDT in play. They usually can't deal with a fast Liliana, because you can tick her up to 6 with no pressure, and then cut them off white.

Jace suffers against Punishing Fire and Bloodbraid Elf's haste.

All in all, it's a good matchup when you learn how to play it (not to overextend, knowing what to pick with Thoughtseize, etc...).

But yeah, sometimes they just Entreat for lethal EOT and you can't do shit.

iamajellydonut

09-01-2014, 12:04 PM

That is... oversimplified.

Punish Foolz

09-01-2014, 12:14 PM

To quote Patrick Sullivan, "There's a lot of play to the matchup"

Richard Cheese

09-01-2014, 12:47 PM

sdematt

09-01-2014, 08:26 PM

That is... oversimplified.

Vastly oversimplified. Hymn is not your best card, what you want is Thoughtseize.

Even though this seems to need repeating a lot, let me overview how to attack Miracles.

1) Sensei's Divining Top is the glue holding that deck together. Without Top, the deck functions much more poorly and has trouble setting up their win cards, Brainstorm or not.

2) If Jace is disabled, they're left with only Entreat the Angels to win the game. I like to focus on getting rid of Entreat or making Entreats unprofitable with Jund because you have REB for Jace, as well as the Punishing Fires engine.

3) Disable Entreat.

So, how do you do this? The easiest way to do this is Thoughtseize their Top, Needle their Top, Grip their Top, etc. Next, having cards like REB, Chains of Mephistopheles, Pernicious Deed, and Slaughter Games are all good cards to deal with their deck in general, Jace, or Entreat. Without being able to profitably Entreat (example, a Deed sitting on board), they are forced to win with Jace, which is super unlikely as long as your hand isn't dog shit.

All I have to say is pressure, pressure, pressure. You need to be extremely aggressive to put them on the back foot because their recovery is so efficient (Terminus/Entreat). Don't overextend into Terminus and try to land Bob/Sylvan and you should have a much easier time. Sylvan will win you games, hands down.

Jund can be favoured in the Miracles matchup, since you have so much redundancy, but if you're not running the right mix of cards (ex. no Chains/REB/Deed/Games) you may have a harder time. Pilot experience in the matchup is also important. Know which hands are a trap (Just because it has Bloodbraid doesn't mean you're going to auto-win, or Thoughtseize but no action on the play) and which ones are going to take you all the way. Liliana is much worse than you think she is in the matchup, especially in game 1 against active Jace, which is a main problem.

-Matt