[Deck] Jund

[iamajellydonut]

New question... if you have two Surgical Extractions in the sideboard, how many of them do you bring in?

[Myelectronicdays]

New question... if you have two Surgical Extractions in the sideboard, how many of them do you bring in?

I guess I would ask that if you were running 2 slaughter games also (in place)

[iamajellydonut]

I guess I would ask that if you were running 2 slaughter games also (in place)

Not necessarily. Negating any and all Terminuses (termini?) can be amazing, but Surgical Extractions don't do anything. I'm still boarding them in every chance I get, but if I get something like an initial hand of 2xSurgical, XxLand, XxShit, I've fucked myself. I didn't know if anyone had sort of a rough formula for boarding them in. Like if you're on the play or if you're on the draw or if you bring in Duress or whatever.

[Punish Foolz]

I board 2 surgical and I bring them both in against miracles. They make your discard so much better. I bring in 2 duress as well. My greatest moment against miracles was extracting an entreat in the yard with a miracle entreat on the stack. Not only did I not die but it also shuffled his top away. That story doesn't prove that boarding them is correct, but it can definitely be a powerful card against them.

[ironclad8690]

I board 2 surgical and I bring them both in against miracles. They make your discard so much better. I bring in 2 duress as well. My greatest moment against miracles was extracting an entreat in the yard with a miracle entreat on the stack. Not only did I not die but it also shuffled his top away. That story doesn't prove that boarding them is correct, but it can definitely be a powerful card against them.

It is definitely one of those cards that I am never sure about in this matchup.

On one hand, nabbing a Jace, Entreat, or Terminus feels awesome and usually wins the game.

On the other RIP turns it into a blank draw.

I have experimented with boarding it in but I have never been able to test it extensively.

[Punish Foolz]

I've played a lot against miracles and it's never been particularly bad, but my experience isn't the end all be all of the match up

[aluisiocsantos]

I traditionally run only one copy but I think I did run two at a time. The thing about surgical is that it works best with T1 discard, so I think you want it boarded along with Duress, generally on the combo matchup (Miracles -control combo- included).
There is the risk of getting two of it in your hand, but depending on the rest of it it's not half bad. You can still pair it with wasteland or something. This card is never bad.

[Punish Foolz]

I've considered cutting one for an extirpate to have a better game against lands but I can't make myself pull the trigger on it

[Whitefaces]

I actually don't like discard against miracles at all. On the play I'll leave in two or three thoughtseize to try and catch a top, but on the draw if they land a top discard is almost irrelevant. Because of that I only have Surgicals if I'm on the play, and some guys in my meta play RiP versions so don't SB them at all.

[Punish Foolz]

Top doesn't invalidate discard, it only helps them recover from it. Are you going to board out goyfs because they have plows and rips?

[ironclad8690]

What do you guys think of the Jund deck that made the top 8 of the starcity invitational?

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=72276

Alex Flinchler's matches against Reid Duke were interesting to watch, seemed like the typical happening when facing an experienced miracles player.

Do you guys think anything could have been changed in the sideboard or maindeck to improve the Miracles matchup (my first thought is Chains of Meph in board)?

[Nuke is Good]

I'm not a fan of the Taiga since I'd rather have a 4th Grove. Chains is an amazing card but the problem is it's cost so I can imagine that is why it's not in many sideboards. The 75 seems low on gravehate but has more discard.

[iamajellydonut]

What do you guys think of the Jund deck that made the top 8 of the starcity invitational?

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=72276

Alex Flinchler's matches against Reid Duke were interesting to watch, seemed like the typical happening when facing an experienced miracles player.

Do you guys think anything could have been changed in the sideboard or maindeck to improve the Miracles matchup (my first thought is Chains of Meph in board)?

I haven't watched the games yet. Totally do when I get home tomorrow. As far as his board though, yes, I do think it could have definitely been improved in terms of Miracles, but I wouldn't start it out with Chains of Mephistopheles. Even Pithing Needle is more in demand.

[Punish Foolz]

I think Alex did what many people do for invitationals, pick up Jund specifically for that event. People love to show up with delver and stoneforge decks and this scares people away from playing combo decks at these events. Perfect metagame for Jund to prey on. He made fatal errors against Reid and his lack of experience in the match up really showed. Mad respect for making top 8 though.

[ironclad8690]

I have never been a fan of Taiga in Punishing builds either. It is awesome in non punishing lists, but I think I'd even prefer Swamp #2 to Taiga #1 in Punishing.

Also, I agree about Alex. There were at least a couple of things I might have done differently, such as holding that 2nd Dark Confidant in the final game, taking Jace with that Thoughtseize on Turn 2 when there was RIP, Blood Moon, and Clique as other viable choices etc.

Still a very respectable finish. Best I've managed to do at an SCG with this deck is 5-4. That said, I went 6-2-1 back in November with Punishing Maverick and that is very similar, but as you said; mad props.

How would you guys construct a sideboard for a meta with Lands, Merfolk, Death and Taxes, Storm, Patriot Delver, and Stoneblade?

My current board:

2 Duress
2 Pyroblast
2 Engineered Plague
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Golgari Charm
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Life from the Loam

[Punish Foolz]

Extirpate is really good against lands. Toxic deluge may be better than plague, ancient grudge is fine but I've never liked it in Jund, ensnaring bridge is considerable. Also, 100% agree about taigas in Jund. Not for me either

[Nuke is Good]

I have never been a fan of Taiga in Punishing builds either. It is awesome in non punishing lists, but I think I'd even prefer Swamp #2 to Taiga #1 in Punishing.

How would you guys construct a sideboard for a meta with Lands, Merfolk, Death and Taxes, Storm, Patriot Delver, and Stoneblade?

My current board:

2 Duress
2 Pyroblast
2 Engineered Plague
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Golgari Charm
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Life from the Loam

I'm more a fan of Extirpate vs Surgical since it's a card I need to go off to shut off a combo deck. I'd probably cut one Jitte and put in another Golgari Charm. Depending which place I play at I change my engineered plagues to dread of night since one store I play at is D&T infested.

[iamajellydonut]

ancient grudge is fine but I've never liked it in Jund

Ancient Grudge is some of the best value in our colors. If you prioritize other things over it, to each his own, but to not like it? It's amazing from A-Z. The sheer shit-slap it delivers to Stoneblades and Death and Taxes alone makes it worthwhile. Never mind all of the fringe decks it deals with and the tricky value you can gain against Baleful Strixes and the like.

Anyway, both Surgical and Extirpate are fine. I prefer Surgical because I feel "free" has much more application than split second. Unless Goblins makes a resurgence, I don't feel Engineered Plague is as necessary or as good as it used to be. At the very least, there are far better alternatives like Massacre and Toxic Deluge. Taiga is an utter waste of a land slot.

[Punish Foolz]

Ancient Grudge is some of the best value in our colors. If you prioritize other things over it, to each his own, but to not like it? It's amazing from A-Z. The sheer shit-slap it delivers to Stoneblades and Death and Taxes alone makes it worthwhile. Never mind all of the fringe decks it deals with and the tricky value you can gain against Baleful Strixes and the like.

Anyway, both Surgical and Extirpate are fine. I prefer Surgical because I feel "free" has much more application than split second. Unless Goblins makes a resurgence, I don't feel Engineered Plague is as necessary or as good as it used to be. At the very least, there are far better alternatives like Massacre and Toxic Deluge. Taiga is an utter waste of a land slot.
I don't like it because the games where I want it's effect are winnable without it. There are a lot of things I'm much more afraid of than artifacts that I already have answers to. People bring up batterskull the most like Jund struggles against that card. Love it in modern, don't need it in legacy.

[aluisiocsantos]

I like 1 Taiga, because sometimes, say you got 2 fetchlands, and you are facing a deck that plays wasteland. the rest of your hand is P.Fire, Bolt, ADecay, Bob/Tarmo, Discard. I can fetch for a swamp, and then fetch for a Taiga and have all colors I'll need. Otherwise, I'd prolly have to go for Forest or Badlands if I need the red mana, and close the green slot. Of course, you can always mulligan, but this would be quite the hand to lose.

As for Ancient grudge, as long as Stoneforge dekcs are a thing, you're gonna need them. If you have Grudge, it's almost the same as saving a P.Fire youd hit on Gaga so you can use it on Delver instead. Also, after TNN gets equipped you're so gonna have wished you'd dealt with the artifact.
Plus, there's always the random goblins and merfolk decks, and Imperial Painter is totally a thing!

Now two jittes in a sideboard is a little too much, you have Punishing Fire already, I don't think more than one is needed.

Now some good discussion. Some people seem to love Engineered Plague, some run Toxic Deluge, and most people Run Golgari Charm alone or a combination of it with the other two I've mentioned. What's you guys favorite setup, and why?

[iamajellydonut]

I do one Golgari Charm main, and one Massacre and one Deed side. I always am looking for ways to squeeze in a Toxic Deluge, and sometimes I do, but most of the time it unfortunately ends up as the sixteenth card. Otherwise, that's all I run for sweeps and I've never been wanting.

[Punish Foolz]

Saying you need grudge to beat stoneforge decks is just wrong. It's useful against them but that doesn't make it an auto include. I rarely lose to stoneforge decks in general, we're designed to beat them easily so we don't have to waste sideboard slots respecting them.

[aluisiocsantos]

Before running Golgari Charm (totally because of TNN) Jund used to run 1 or even two Ancient Grudge, plus Krosan Grip, pre-TNN, which is when it used to rule the world. It's a lot of concern with artifacts. The thing is that you can kill stoneforges, but you can't kill an equipped delver/Tnn unless you have one of the three abrupt decays. 1 ancient grudge means 2 artifact kills. And jund is all about 2-for-1s.

[Punish Foolz]

All of the match ups you're using as examples are heavily in junds favor. When I start losing to those decks, I'll consider it but at the moment grudge is not a necessity. It's a fine card and it has it's place but you can play the deck without it.

[ironclad8690]

Now some good discussion. Some people seem to love Engineered Plague, some run Toxic Deluge, and most people Run Golgari Charm alone or a combination of it with the other two I've mentioned. What's you guys favorite setup, and why?

I play 2 Engineered Plagues because of the Merfolk player in my meta. I used to play 3, but Golgari Charm has necessary utility for me in preventing my creatures from dying as well as destroying the occasional enchantment.

I also like the permanent effect of Plague. I tried Toxic Deluge, but I found the lifeloss to be too relevant when multiple lords are in play. Also cascading into Toxic Deluge isn't the best.

2 Jittes in my board are mainly there for Delver, Merfolk, D&T and Burn. It is just so powerful, and there is very little combo in my meta. I think at a larger event I would cut a jitte for a Grafdigger's Cage, as I feel 3 pieces of GY hate isn't enough for the larger and more complete meta.

The strange and horrible truth about my sideboard is that it is mainly adjusted to try and beat Merfolk and Death and Taxes as much as possible, as those are the matchups that I have struggled with. Even Lands doesn't hold a candle to the number of times I have lost to Merfolk and Death and Taxes. It is disturbing and sad.

[Punish Foolz]

I think you should probably just change your approach to the matchup. Death and taxes is harder than most people think but still very favorable, merfolk shouldn't give you any trouble

[iamajellydonut]

I also like the permanent effect of Plague. I tried Toxic Deluge, but I found the lifeloss to be too relevant when multiple lords are in play. Also cascading into Toxic Deluge isn't the best.

So, Toxic Deluge is not good when there are multiple lords on the field, but Engineered Plague is?

Also, cascading into Toxic Deluge is amazing. Note that the Toxic Deluge will resolve before the Bloodbraid Elf. It's basically a 3/2 haste WoG.

[Vandalize]

I think you should probably just change your approach to the matchup. Death and taxes is harder than most people think but still very favorable, merfolk shouldn't give you any trouble

I agree. Engineered Plague isn't that hot against Merfolks, their TNN is likely to live due to infinte lord count.

Still, Merfolk is a VERY positive matchup. We have plenty of removal and Pyroblasts post-board is overkill.

In the Death and Taxes matchup, I think I prefer Pernicious Deed/Toxic Deluge over Plague. Just need to be careful not running into Phyrexian Revoker on Deed plan.

[aluisiocsantos]

All of the match ups you're using as examples are heavily in junds favor. When I start losing to those decks, I'll consider it but at the moment grudge is not a necessity. It's a fine card and it has it's place but you can play the deck without it.

As much as I sort of agree to this, are you then saying it's the prevalence of comb othat pushed Jund off top8s? Combos have always been there. In my opinion the existence of creatures like TNN pushed him off. But Jund of course has many ways of dealing with the super powered merfolk, however, it becomes much harder if it is equipped. Death and Taxes also changed to face it, and it has added more flying creatures, and blue/red swords. Where's Punishing Fire now? I mean, Im not diminishing the card, but I do think it artifact combating is a way to go with Jund. Decks runnin 4 stoneforges + U/R + B/G swords + Jitte + Batterskull. That's 8 cards that will likely have one of in their hands. and those are dekcs that have pushed jund of the table. Not combo (which would be the natural bad matchups you refer). Jund excels i nthe fair matchup, but it's in those that it's been struggling, IMO.

As for BBE + Toxic Deluge, I so want to see this in play!

[iamajellydonut]

As much as I sort of agree to this, are you then saying it's the prevalence of comb othat pushed Jund off top8s?

Nah, man. Jund is great against Combo. Jund is a the best deck. No bad match-ups. Ez mode. No flaws. Can't lose. #jundswag420


Where's Punishing Fire now? I mean, Im not diminishing the card, but I do think it artifact combating is a way to go with Jund.

Related note... I played without Punishing Fire again last night. Went 3-1 for second. Still don't regret not having Punishing Fire. Still don't regret having extra Swamp.

Goblin Stompy 2-1: On the play. Naturally have Swamp in hand game 1. Get there.
Miracles 2-0: On the draw. Mull. Wasteland get. Supergood hate get.
12post 2-0: On the draw. Fucking Deathrite.
Burn 1-2: On the draw. Mucked up game one by taking Price of Progress over other stuff with a Thoughtseize forgetting that I had a Swamp and Forest in play with a fetch in my hand just in case. Remembered game 2 and even closed out with Bloodbraid Elf off 2xSwamp, Forest, Deathrite.

[Punish Foolz]

Jund was one of the decks least impacted by tnn. We were already playing golgari charm in the board and Liliana in the main, Jund is one of the best decks to beat tnn decks. And nothing in particular "pushed" jund out of the top 8s. Legacy has a ton of tier one decks and jund is one the most underplayed because people fear combo and love brainstorm. And seriously, do you even play this deck? You're literally saying the decks that Jund preys on have pushed it out of the format. Where's punishing fire? In all the Jund decks that have top 8ed in the last year

[aluisiocsantos]

And seriously, do you even play this deck? You're literally saying the decks that Jund preys on have pushed it out of the format. Where's punishing fire? In all the Jund decks that have top 8ed in the last year

I guess I am. I played the hell out of it with from last year (with solid results) till this year (with plenty of defeats) up until around the BOM9 loam popped up, and I've changed to it recently.

[razvan]

Ah, so Koth is back in the spotlight.

Back before I did the primer, I tried 3 Koths in the sideboard of Aggro Loam (which is Jund-ish). They are amazing against a few decks.

Obviously Miracles is a big deal. They are mostly unable to deal with him. Yes, Vendillion Clique can sometimes be a problem, but it needs to attack twice. You have removal, and you kept it in :)

The other thing is Blood Moon type decks. Obviously sneak and show is not about Blood Moon so you would never do this, but Painter, Dragon Stompy type things, are a thing for some reason. They are decent in there.

I think Garruk is still better. They are about the same sort of clock against Miracles:

PW: G - K (total damage dealt upon casting)
T1: 0 - 4
T2: 2 - 8
T3: 6 - 12
T4: 12 - 16
T5: 20 - 20

But Garruk can do blockers, is useful for his fighting, and such.

[Punish Foolz]

Well I've had nothing but good results against deathblade/delver/bug/death and taxes etc. Pre and post tnn. The match ups I struggle with are lands, storm, infect, show and tell decks, painter, and other fringe combo. I don't know if our experiences just differ that much, but I think you're concerned with the wrong matchups

[iamajellydonut]

Jund was one of the decks least impacted by tnn. We were already playing golgari charm in the board and Liliana in the main, Jund is one of the best decks to beat tnn decks.

We are one of the best decks to beat a standalone True-Name Nemesis. The decks that run True-Name Nemesis, however, still stand a very fair chance to kick the dicks out of us.

You say we "prey upon" this and "prey upon" that. I say you're highly delusional. We have a huge amount of raw power and there's not a single deck in the format that's happy to play against us, but the truth of the matter is that we're not as consistent as other decks and can get blown out very easily. Want an actual list of the decks we "prey upon"?

Infect
High Tide
Cephalid Breakfast
StifleNought

[Punish Foolz]

If jund doesn't prey on the decks I described then it shouldn't be played at all in legacy. Ask anyone that plays those decks how their Jund matchup is. I play legacy every week against them and rarely come close to losing because I don't over respect them like you seem too. There is literally nothing to fear from them if you play correctly.

[iamajellydonut]

I would love to see an Open report from you.

[Punish Foolz]

I'm going to the Atlanta open next weekend. In the meantime, I have a report from a legacy iq I won a few months ago you're welcome to read

[iamajellydonut]

I'm going to the Atlanta open next weekend. In the meantime, I have a report from a legacy iq I won a few months ago you're welcome to read

I had already read it. Grats. Sincerely grats. Money and an invite are fantastic. But speaking with regards to our discussion, it says nothing. You played against two relevant decks (both of which, if I'm re-reading this correctly, lost to themselves) and ID'd with RUG twice. It shows no consistency to support the notion that we prey upon any of the DTBs.

[Punish Foolz]

I guess if you just disregard my entire thought process I went through to play around their best cards, then yeah I guess they did best themselves

[iamajellydonut]

I guess if you just disregard my entire thought process I went through to play around their best cards, then yeah I guess they did best themselves

Well, you didn't provide a thought process for BUG, and against Sneak and Show there was no thought process necessary. He got lands instead of accel in game one while you had two Thoughtseizes, and game two he mulled to a hand with no accel and a first possible play of turn four.

[Whitefaces]

If jund doesn't prey on the decks I described then it shouldn't be played at all in legacy. Ask anyone that plays those decks how their Jund matchup is. I play legacy every week against them and rarely come close to losing because I don't over respect them like you seem too. There is literally nothing to fear from them if you play correctly.

I agree with this. I'm not delusional in thinking that every matchup we're describing is going to be easy, far from it. But I'm very confident that we have an upper hand in the fair matchups. By being Jund we sacrifice consistency and card selection for sheer power, I see that as a positive. There is also a lot to be said for the pilot of jund decks. Sequencing is still tricky despite not having cantrips. Hopefully we also remember to play BBE pre-combat :tongue:

I'm playing a tournament this weekend, and am undecided on my 60th card. It's between a fourth Decay or a MD Golgari Charm. I'm leaning towards the charm as I'm expecting a lot of Delver decks with TNNs, but I do have one in the board too.

I'm also playing two Prophetic Flamespeakers. I've been testing them out a bunch at my LGS and am quite convinced by them.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Prophetic Flamespeaker
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Thoughtseize
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Golgari Charm/Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire

1 Sylvan Library

1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

SB

1 Chains of Mefistopholes
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Pyroblast
1 Krosan Grip
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Massacre
1 Golgari Charm
2 Duress
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ancient Grudge

Thoughts on the decay vs charm MD? Or is there another card I should have instead?

[Punish Foolz]

Maindeck charm. I'd present my reasoning but it seems that it's no good here

[ironclad8690]

Maindeck charm. I'd present my reasoning but it seems that it's no good here

We would still like to hear it, at least I would.

We can't let our differences prevent us from furthering discussion about our deck.

As for me, I would add a golgari charm because it will be useful in almost any situation and give a generality that 4 abrupt decays wouldn't.

When I tried it in my maindeck I found that it was never dead, and best case scenario took out lingering soul tokens or TNN.

I have since gone back to the punishing fire version, but if I hadn't I would still be playing it.


As for why I play 2 Engineered Plagues over Toxic Deluge: with a Plague in play I only have to use removal on Lords and Mutavaults. Everything else just dies. It has been the most effective for me compared to Deluge and Golgari Charm, at least against Merfolk.

[Neffy]

Looking at the mana base of almost any Jund deck in here, I see a lot of 1x forest, 1x swamp.
I play 2x swamp, 1 forest and I would not change it back for anything.

It makes blood moon matchups (keeps) better, less waste prone and ensures the double black in almost any game.

I just want to recommend it!

[ironclad8690]

Looking at the mana base of almost any Jund deck in here, I see a lot of 1x forest, 1x swamp.
I play 2x swamp, 1 forest and I would not change it back for anything.

It makes blood moon matchups (keeps) better, less waste prone and ensures the double black in almost any game.

I just want to recommend it!

I have been back and forth about this as well. What is your manabase?

[Dice_Box]

Well, this thread turnee into a primary school playground...

Going to say this much. Punish, if you honestly feel Ancient Gruge is not a card that Jund should be playing, I suggest looking into what your trying to achieve with this deck. Because an almost guaranteed 2 for 1 on many troublesome cards is a very Jund thing to do.

[Punish Foolz]

I never said it shouldn't be played, I actually said it's a fine card for the deck but not necessary. Not playing grudge is not blasphemy

[tescrin]

Grudge is probably a good include since the decks are going to bring multiple equips over the long game. It's also instant speed and very good tempo gain. Equips mean their creature drops are probably stronger than yours if you're eating said equips.

[Neffy]

I have been back and forth about this as well. What is your manabase?

I go

2 swamp
1 forest
2 bayou
3 badlands
1 wooded foothills
4 verdant catacombs
4 bloodstained mire
3 wasteland
3 grove

I am really trying to prevent the starting 7 of zero black with 1 forest, 1 grove/wasteland (n)

Regarding Ancient Grudge; i've always used that as my preferred jund artifact hate in the board, but seeing as the cards that mostly trouble us is batterskull and sensei's top I think it safe to go with krosan grip.
I also like the idea of a charm maindeck instead of the 4th decay - do you people have the 4th in the SB or just cut it completely?

[ironclad8690]

I go

2 swamp
1 forest
2 bayou
3 badlands
1 wooded foothills
4 verdant catacombs
4 bloodstained mire
3 wasteland
3 grove

I am really trying to prevent the starting 7 of zero black with 1 forest, 1 grove/wasteland (n)

Regarding Ancient Grudge; i've always used that as my preferred jund artifact hate in the board, but seeing as the cards that mostly trouble us is batterskull and sensei's top I think it safe to go with krosan grip.
I also like the idea of a charm maindeck instead of the 4th decay - do you people have the 4th in the SB or just cut it completely?

I have cut it completely. I cant think of a matchup where I would need 4, usually sweepers, pyroblasts, or jitte are the cards that I bring in when I need more removal.

[Whitefaces]

I think I will go with charm, it's such a versatile card. Decay is too, but three is enough with all the other removal.

And I made a mistake in the first post, I wrote Misty Rainforest where it should be Bloodstained Mire.

I haven't actually tried the 2 Swamp 1 forest manabase, but I like the idea a lot. Definitely sorts out the blood moon/wasteland matchups nicely without digging into the SB.

[iamajellydonut]

And I made a mistake in the first post, I wrote Misty Rainforest where it should be Bloodstained Mire.

Good.

Anyway, I would never add a second basic Swamp unless I have everything else covered first. While it does "help" with a few things, it doesn't solve them, and Wasteland and Grove of the Burnwillows "help" a whooole lot more.

[Rizso]

Whats the reason that very little to no one is playing the worldwake manlands? Unlike modern where every bgx deck run as many as they can fit.

[Dice_Box]

Wasteland.

[aluisiocsantos]

Whats the reason that very little to no one is playing the worldwake manlands? Unlike modern where every bgx deck run as many as they can fit.

My guess is Wasteland, but i nfact last week I saw a Jund running Raging Ravine with success, he was 5-1 or 4-2 I think.

[DOM]

Wasteland and an overall faster pace which makes it hard to efficiently play taplands (yes, Shardless BUG plays Creeping Tar Pit, but that deck can cantrip, has a lover mana curve and Tar Pit is also unblockable, which makes it worth a slot or two). What is more, in a format with decent cantrips, Lightning Bolt becomes a lot more relevant and it sure is not fun to lose Raging Ravine to a bolt. And more importantly, Raging Ravine produces R/G while B is what we need.

[Rizso]

But gonna get wastelanded anyway and lightning bolt is quite taxed already for liliana bob, deathrite and random smallgoyfs. Still a cteature that cant be abrupted and bolt and other removal are cards you can play arround when the deck is fill with discard effects. Manlands increases threatdensity and jund colors have 2 solid wwkmanland and treetop as well. Tec edge and bolt is everywhere and still they see massive play there.

Does the deck really need 9 fetchlands?

Just some outside perspective questions.

[trollking21]

My biggest thought is that it takes 4 mana plus the land itself to activate which means you can't do anything else with your mana that turn typically. A 5 mana investment often will leave without the mana to activate deathrite or play goyf.
Shardless loves creeping tarpit because it snipes jace and liliana, while also being a good stand alone creature. Also being 1 mana cheaper activation helps a lot.

That's not to say its unplayable but it definitely seems one of the slower ways a jund deck can grind out value.

[iamajellydonut]

Just some outside perspective questions.

None of the viable manlands in Jund produce black and they all enter the battlefield tapped. There's not much more to say. I tried out Treetop Village for a while, but it was still nonblack and entered the battlefield tapped and ended up hurting more than it helped.

[aluisiocsantos]

That said, it's still better at grinding than Punishing Fire, if you look at it.
3 tapped lands = 1 Pt Damage
6 tapped lands = 3 Pt Damage

Vs Ravine
5 tapped lands = 4
5 tapped lands = 5
5 tapped lands = 6 and so on. I say it could try coming in instead of a 4th Grove.

Grante, it will most likely be used to generate mana solely, but still, when it happens, it's gonna be way more awesome than P.Fire

[Nuke is Good]

Whats the reason that very little to no one is playing the worldwake manlands? Unlike modern where every bgx deck run as many as they can fit.

Wasteland and ETB Tapped

[Dice_Box]

That said, it's still better at grinding than Punishing Fire, if you look at it.
3 tapped lands = 1 Pt Damage
6 tapped lands = 3 Pt Damage

Vs Ravine
5 tapped lands = 4
5 tapped lands = 5
5 tapped lands = 6 and so on. I say it could try coming in instead of a 4th Grove.

Grante, it will most likely be used to generate mana solely, but still, when it happens, it's gonna be way more awesome than P.Fire

It's just cute, nothing more. I mean, if Punishing was legal in Modern, the first thing to go would be those lands. Fire is not there to win a game, (though it can) and putting it next to something that you have the express intent to deal combat damage with seams like an unfair comparison.

[aluisiocsantos]

For sure! Though I'm not excluding fire, but instead just assuming in a situation in which the only choice you have is Punishing Fire to grind the hell of it, maybe you could have that mana better spent with this land. But i really gotta try it out to see how likely it is to happen.

[Rizso]

It's just cute, nothing more. I mean, if Punishing was legal in Modern, the first thing to go would be those lands. Fire is not there to win a game, (though it can) and putting it next to something that you have the express intent to deal combat damage with seams like an unfair comparison.

Most of them play groove already. If you really are so hurt for black there is also the option for bg filterland. It would allow a 3 land hand, groove, wasteland hands to cast a turn 3 liliana.

[Dice_Box]

I know, after Rock, Jund is my Modern deck of choice. That's why I have it in Legacy. All I am saying is that, should at any time PF be unbanned in Modern, the first thing to be cut would be the Man lands.

[DOM]

Keeping in mind that the grove package would drag things to the late game, it would be fairly reasonable to still keep a couple of manlands. But I doubt that Punishing Fire is in a position for being unbanned and this topic is rather irrelevant for the thread.

[ironclad8690]

Reid Duke just posted some videos playing an interesting version of jund utilizing 2 mox diamonds, a gsz package including dryad arbor and huntmaster of the fells, and 0 bloodbraid elves. Thought his list was interesting but I dunno if I could ever give up bloodbraid elf.

Here is his deck tech video: http://youtu.be/Gf6mgvn-u6w

[iamajellydonut]

Reid Duke just posted some videos playing an interesting version of jund utilizing 2 mox diamonds, a gsz package including dryad arbor and huntmaster of the fells, and 0 bloodbraid elves. Thought his list was interesting but I dunno if I could ever give up bloodbraid elf.

Here is his deck tech video: http://youtu.be/Gf6mgvn-u6w

And he went 2-4 with it having only beaten Burn. While this means nothing in and of itself, I would like to point out that his new package meant nothing to any of the decks he had trouble with. Jund's problem isn't its "oomf". It's got plenty of "oomf" and it makes all the ladies sigh. Jund's problem is that it's inconsistent (and doesn't have shitty universal counters). His alterations, though I do love me some Green Sun's Zenith, did nothing to change that problem and Mox Diamond only stands to make that problem worse.

[aluisiocsantos]

Mox only works if your deck is Pox, or if youre running Loam or Crucible. That said, you'd need more than one loam for it to be viable, and that will make it go more towards traditional Aggro Loam (which is actually jund colors) instead of Jund.

[ironclad8690]

Went 1-2 in my weekly local.

Round 1 I played against 12 post. I will admit I do not have much experience with this matchup. Game 1 I play a couple of deathrites and a lili which gets pithing needled. he just goes for a turn 3 show and tell and puts in prime time. I dont draw an out by the time he can cast emrakul infinite times.

I board out 2 abrupt decay (incorrect), 2 lightning bolt, and 3 punishing fire for 2 duress, 2 surgical, 1 life from the loam, and 2 pyroblast.

Game 2 goyf brings it home real quick. By the time he gets enough mana to do anything I am swining for lethal.

Game 3 I get totally surprised by ensnaring bridge, which I dont find an out to. He plays karn liberated (?) And proceeds to exile stuff and get emrakul. I probably should have left in decays and possible bring in ancient grudge.

Round 2 I lose the mirror by drawing less bloodbraids.

Round 3 I beat miracles by not overextending.

12 post was the most frustrating loss because I boarded incorrectly.

How do you guys combat this matchup?

[Vandalize]

How do you guys combat this matchup?

I've had a little trouble with this matchup as well. It seems that we need a certain combination of factors to win:

1) Wasteland
2) Fast Hymn to Tourach/Liliana
3) Abrupt Decay (for Candelabra of Tawnos or Pithing Needle targeting Wasteland)
4) Fast Clock

Wasteland is obviously good against them, and if you manage to destroy 1~2 posts, if you have a little pressure you should be fine. A fast Hymn and Liliana can also catch them with pants down, because they spend their first 2~3 turns durdling with cantrips and Sensei's Divining Top.

Turn 1 Thoughtseize should be priority (even if you have Deathrite Shaman in hand). Taking SDT or Show and Tell buys a lot of time to setup our tempo.

Surgical Extraction is also good in this matchup. Taking out a wasted Cloudpost, or even a discarded Primeval Titan can be game. Without Titan they need more time to setup, and usually need to find Eye of Ugin to fetch 1-of Eldrazi.

[ironclad8690]

Sweet thanks for the tips.

[Neffy]

Went 4-0-2 a few days ago of 27 players in my local game shop.

2-0 vs. BUG
2-0 vs. False cure
2-1 vs. affinity
2-0 vs UR delver
ID vs. storm :O
ID vs. D&T to get him into prices and reduce number of people in prices (if he lost 3 more would 'get in')

MVP:
MD golgari charm (removing double vault skirge when i am at 4 - although he top decked galvanic blast...)
Jitte much awesome, very wow against Etched champion
Null rod!
Jund in general when almost entire meta was fair decks!

Standard deck list with 3 decay, 1 G. charm
Sideboard:
1 slaughter games
1 grafdigger
1 krosan grip
1 null rod
1 p.needle
1 toxic deluge
3 pyreblast
3 duress
1 chains of meph.
1 Jitte
1 surgical ext.

[iamajellydonut]

12 post was the most frustrating loss because I boarded incorrectly.

How do you guys combat this matchup?

So, I'm a fukken idiot. When I initially saw your post I went ahead and typed up this big ol' guide. Then, completely ignoring the part where you said "Show and Tell" and "Primeval Titan", I got confused about which version of 12Post you were referring to and deleted my post. Anyway, here's round two. My reply here is going to be in kind of a rambly format just because there's no easy way to put it all on paper, but I'll try to keep it organized.

My first post in this thread was actually asking for help with 12Post. Since then I've been playing far more regularly against it and have discovered that, although it continues to be an unfortunate match-up, it's certainly winnable.

Their entire plan against Jund is to steamroll you via lands. Your Wastelands are not guaranteed to be seen and their lands are infinite anyway. Roll lands and drop a Primeval Titan into Eye activations or just get enough mana for Eye activations and win. To get there, they have Glimmerpost (fucking Glimmerpost), Moment's Peace, and Glacial Chasm. Each one of them is a Time Walk if it sticks. Repeal is their underrated utility, but it can also function as another Time Walk if necessary. Keep in mind that "stalling" is literally their only tool to stay alive. They have no counters unless they bring them in from the board and they have no Wraths or Wrath effects except for a singleton Engineered Explosives either in the main or the side and no spot kill of any kind. Keep in mind that they can have random tricks like Dark Depths, but they're few and far between.

Hymn to Tourach, and to a lesser extent Thoughtseize, are going to be your bread and fucking butter in terms of having time to win the game. Hymn to Tourach you want to pop off as soon as you have time to. If it hits lands, you're doing great. If it hits bombs, you're doing great. There's not really a card in their deck that you don't love to hit with a Hymn to Tourach outside of spare Tropical Islands. Thoughtseize you want to use a bit more surgically. For example, the cards you fear that Thoughtseize can hit are their bombs. As neat as it is to take a Sensei's Divining Top (etc), and as much as they love to have a Sensei's Diving Top, it's not always that pertinent to take. And beyond that, unless you truly have a dead turn where you can freely fire a Thoughtseize, the very earliest thing you have to worry about is Show and Tell on turn 3.

Aside from discard, Wasteland is obviously one of the top contenders for winning the war. Unfortunately, it's a three-of in many cases and as much as people like to promote Life from the Loam in the board, they still have more land than you have Wastelands. If you can pop off an early Wasteland, do it. It's up to you whether you want to do something like Deathrite Shaman turn one and then Wasteland turn two or just Waste straight out, but Wasteland gets far worse as the game goes on. Past turn whatever, once they've built up a decent amout of lands, you really need to ration those Wastelands and take the lands that impact the board at that moment. Often times the best play can simply be just waiting for an Eye of Ugin or something similarly gross.

Sensei's Divining Top, Crop Rotation, Pithing Needle, Candelabra, and Expedition Map are all cards they have that you have to be aware of, but don't necessarily have to beware of. Even the Eldrazi kind of fit into that category up until "fuckton of mana" comes online. In the meantime, Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, and Bloodbraid Elf are your main men/monsters/chicks. Beyond Hymn to Tourach and Thoughtseize, those are what you should be prioritizing your mana on. They're what actually kill your opponent, and that counts for a lot. In many situations you can even go double Confidant, but be ready to kill one off if they start fogging.

Deathrite Shaman, Liliana of the Veil, and Sylvan Library are all sort of those cards that you sneak in when you can. Deathrite Shaman is one of the easier cards to sneak in given that he's a turn one play and you can delay casting Thoughtseize, but he's little more than a mana-intensive beater here. If you can, be sure to snipe their Eldrazi out of the grave and Eye of Ugin, but don't break your back over it. Mainly you just want to get in at their life total and prevent them from flashing back Moment's Peace. Sylvan Library is one of the better cards you can sneak in, but the trouble still remains that it doesn't deal them damage and it doesn't have an immediate effect. However, if you do untap with it, you can afford to get really greedy with it. Liliana is actually only sometimes one of your all-stars. She comes down too late, her discard is rather weak, she doesn't prevent them from land-go-ing to victory, and she can easily be poked by Repeal and Pithing Needle. If she ultimates, she's amazing, but staying alive and getting an ultimate is a chore. Her best use is as "whenever you have time" or as an answer to a landed fattie.

As for what to you don't need from the main, the most obvious one is Punishing Fire and a Grove of the Burnwillows. Any Golgari Charms, Diabolic Edicts, Maelstrom Pulses, and random riff-raff like that needs to get out of the main. There's no use for any of it other than contingency plans. Liliana already makes for an ok contingency plan, and she can also discard. You don't really want to cut Lightning Bolts because they can get flung at the face with great effect. As mean as Ensnaring Bridge is, you can usually cut one Abrupt Decay, especially if you're bringing in Ancient Grudge, but you don't want to cut all of them because you do have to be kind of prepared for whatever random things they throw at you.

And what you're replacing all of that with is Pithing Needle and any REBs you have. Winter Orb and Life from the Loam also get top billing if you have them. Null Rod is pretty good. Ancient Grudge is good, but not as anything more than a one-of. Surgical Extraction you can bring in if you're truly desperate, but again nothing more than a one-of. You're really not as likely to get much value of of either. Beyond that, there's not really much. Even Duress is mediocre as it can't hit creatures.


Anyway, sorry for the rambling. I hope this helped.

[Nuke is Good]

I decided to try playing at a local LGS. However since the meta is unknown I did not take Jund to the weekly event. I prefer to use Reanimator at my unknown metagame deck, combo out and hope for the best.

In my 3 out of 4 rounds it was burn. The other decks I saw were 12 post, Shardless BUG, UR Delver, Lands, Leylines (lolwut), and at least two Mono-R Sneak Attacks.

Would you guys take this deck to a metagame like this and if so how would you even adjust your deck to combat this? I'd have to be packing more Duresses and a 2nd Jitte now.

[ironclad8690]

Sweet, thanks for the 12 post tips. Hopefully I'lI get a chance to redeem myself this week.

I might play sowing salt just to really teach this guy.

As for burn you should definitely be playing at least 1 jitte in sb and you can also play something like Obstinate Baloth if you also want some utility against shardless.

Also, from the look of your meta, ensnaring bridge seems like it would do some serious work. I would play a pithing needle or two, and it doesnt look like you would need many wrath effects.

[ironclad8690]

Just won my weekly LGS 3 rounder.

Round 1 beat sneak and show off of some good discard heavy draws.

Round 2 beat UWb blade in 3 very grindy games involving back to basics.

Round 3 drew with Punishing Jund.

Went back to stock list with a board of

2 duress
2 surgical extraction
2 engineered plague
1 jitte
1 golgari charm
2 pyroblast
1 pithing needle
1 choke
1 grudge
1 life from the loam
1 scavenging ooze

[ironclad8690]

Punish Foolz how did you do at Starcity?

[FoolofaTook]

Regarding Ancient Grudge; i've always used that as my preferred jund artifact hate in the board, but seeing as the cards that mostly trouble us is batterskull and sensei's top I think it safe to go with krosan grip.
I also like the idea of a charm maindeck instead of the 4th decay - do you people have the 4th in the SB or just cut it completely?

3 Abrupt Decay main deck handles top as well as anything else Jund can do. You just need to play around the top and leave :b::g: open as often as you can and wait for them to fetch. Hit the top with decay after they've sac'd the fetch and they'll have to shuffle the top away in the process of getting their land. They'll tap the top to draw the card and then the top will go away. If they have another top in hand, well there's nothing you can do about that but berate the gods of Magic for their cruelty to you that day.

This also works to "counter" a Ponder when they have a top out and Ponder, obviously looking to reshuffle their library. You hit the top when they cast Ponder and you'll remove the reshuffle option for them unless they are desperate enough to shuffle away their top or have another top ready to go. They don't get to look at any new cards in this scenario because the top replaces the card on top of their library which is likely a non-helpful card for them or they wouldn't be Pondering after looking at the top 3. Depending on their mana situation they might not even get to look at the 3rd new card after they draw from Ponder because they'll have to recast the top and also have another mana available to top with. It's a small winning play but it works sometimes.

2 Krosan Grip in the sideboard is almost always a good idea. Like you said, Batterskull is a killer against us, and there are other cards like Ensnaring Bridge and Moat where we want every out we can get. It can also resolve a crippling Moon effect early on when the game might get away from us otherwise. Aether Vial gets managed without letting the opponent vial in a Flickerwisp or worse, etc. The biggest benefit though might be when they have Umezawa's Jitte out and pass the turn. You kill the jitte and the investment they have made in it to that point becomes worthless. This is usually a game-winning play.

I use the 4th decay in the sideboard because when it's good it's very good. I want every out possible against DRS, Birds of Paradise, Eidolon of the Great Revel, Bob, etc. I use 1 Golgari Charm in the sideboard and then depending on the meta another in the main list. If I have a lot of D&T, Elves, BUG (with Bob and TNN), Merfolk in the meta I'll play the main list charm.

[afedelejr]

Has anyone tried playing on MTGO lately? I've been trying to get some practice in for the GP in November but it's nothing but Combo and Burn

[ironclad8690]

Has anyone tried playing on MTGO lately? I've been trying to get some practice in for the GP in November but it's nothing but Combo and Burn

I think you could tune to beat the online meta:

First off I dont think punishing fire is where you want to be. The only common online matchup I could see it being useful in is elves.

Without the need for groves, you could play more basic lands; hedging your bets against price of progress. I would play 2 cards that help against burn in the sideboard. Maybe 2 jittes or a split between jitte and obstinate baloth/kitchen finks. A maindeck scavenging ooze would be good as well. Maybe cut down on thoughtseizes in favor of inquisition or more hymns.

As for the combo decks, you could go back to what the punishing jund players originally did and play mindbreak trapin your sideboard. Surgical extraction and 3 duress come in out of the board, as well as however many pyroblasts you have. Null rod might be worth it to stop LED/Petal/SDT.

Those matchups are both harder than miracles, and against elves you should be fine with 2/3 sweepers and 1-2 jitte out of the sideboard.

[aluisiocsantos]

Also Kitchen Finks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ironclad8690]

Just lost to a 12 Post player who forgot all of his own Tabernacle triggers. He ended up sacrificing Primeval Titan AND Kozilek, only to have enough mana to search up Emrakul the following turn. I hate this matchup so much T_T

[iamajellydonut]

I hate this matchup so much T_T

That feel...

Speaking of which, two weeks ago I punted a game against 12Post. I had a Sylvan Library, a Deathrite Shaman, and three land in play, a Bloodbraid Elf in hand, and needed one of six possible discard to not die to whatever was in his hand (I forget what it was, but it was definitely discard or gg). Go to my turn. Look the top three and see fetch/fetch/Deathrite. Figuring "same diff", I opt to take the Deathrite Shaman instead of a fetch or Deathrite Shaman and fetch figuring I can just cast the Bloodbraid off of my existing Deathrite Shaman. Turns out I forgot he had Pithing Needle naming Deathrite Shaman and I die a little inside. So, when I pass the turn and he does this thing, I go into full panic mode and start desperately praying for a Liliana or something to keep me afloat. My turn again. Likely my last meaningful one. I look at the top three and of course see all lands since I didn't shuffle the turn before. Anyway, I draw a fetch, dig up a land, cast the Bloodbraid Elf. First card I flip is a Thoughtseize. Heart breaks.

[ironclad8690]

Has anyone tested against decks packing Treasure Cruise?

Edit: also I just went 3-0 in matches at my local store. I split for 1st with the other undefeated dude.

Round : Tin Fins

Game 1 I thought seize him turn 1 revealing entomb entomb shallow grave shallow grave and some lands. I lose in short order to griselbrand and storm 8 tendrils. Bring in pyroblasts, surgicals, choke, duresses, pithing needle, and scavenging ooze.

Game 2 I get to duress him and take cabal therapy amongst land and cantrips. I progress with goyfs and he digs but cant find anything.

Game 3 I keep 5 lands surgical goyf. He goes probe, draw, pass. I play land and pass. He cantrips and passes. I play goyf and pass. His turn 3, still nothing. I play DRS and keep attacking. He doesnt find anything in time and I have active DRS goyf bloodbraid lili and a surgical in hand.

Round 2 storm

Game 1 I thought his mull to six which has no land, and take his lotus petal. He draws a lotus petal, ponders and passes. I play goyf and pass, he draws basic island and brainstorms. I play DRS and thoughtseize him again taking cabal ritual. By the time I play goyf and attack him down to 11 he goes for it on his next turn and taps out for ad nauseum. Goes to 2 and doesn't find the lotus petal he needs.

Game 2 he plays a turn 2 rabblemaster to my board of lands. I dont have removal anymore, but I did side in golg charm and e plagues. I play bob and he just swings me down with goblins. I draw a bolt, which I left in because of ad nauseum, and get rid of rabblemaster. I play drs, and despite being at 4 with bob in play I stay alive through drs gaining during upkeeps long enough for me to overwhelm him.

Round 3 UR delver

Game 1 I overwhelm him with early large goyf.

Game 2 he submerges a goyf in response to my fetch, I lose to a jace that I cant answer and young pyromaner.

Game 3 I tempo him out with drs hymn and multiple bloodbraid into relevant cards.

Felt good beating 2 combo decks and 1 pseudo burn deck. In my local meta, I have beaten combo decks many times over somehow. Almost as much as I have lost to merfolk, maybe more. Just lucky I guess!

[afedelejr]

Hey fellow Jund aficionados - I've read through this thread entirely and have a couple questions for you guys and gals.

I've been running IoK over Hymns recently. I haven't really missed the Hymns at all. Does anyone else have any experience with this?

I'm still losing to URx Delver. I can't seem to stabilize enough and am always on my back foot when playing around stifle / daze. I'm curious how people go about sideboarding and what axis do you try to attack from.

Against UWx Counterbalance, has anyone tried taking out goyfs? It would blank their Relics and Rest in Peaces.

How often do you find yourself siding out the 4 drops? I am currently running 2 BBE and 1 Huntmaster and I tend to side at least one of them out a majority of the time. Not sure if this is correct or not. I usually side them out against the mana denial decks and against Delver. I feel that it's going to be hard to get to 4 mana and cast them efficiently.

My current configuration is as follows:

1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Dark Confidant
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Thoughtseize
3 Badlands
2 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Punishing Fire
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Bayou
2 Sylvan Library
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Golgari Charm
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest

1 Pyroblast
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
1 Life from the Loam
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Golgari Charm

I appreciate all feedback from you guys

[iamajellydonut]

I've been running IoK over Hymns recently. I haven't really missed the Hymns at all. Does anyone else have any experience with this?

I'm still losing to URx Delver. I can't seem to stabilize enough and am always on my back foot when playing around stifle / daze. I'm curious how people go about sideboarding and what axis do you try to attack from.

Against UWx Counterbalance, has anyone tried taking out goyfs? It would blank their Relics and Rest in Peaces.

How often do you find yourself siding out the 4 drops? I am currently running 2 BBE and 1 Huntmaster and I tend to side at least one of them out a majority of the time. Not sure if this is correct or not. I usually side them out against the mana denial decks and against Delver. I feel that it's going to be hard to get to 4 mana and cast them efficiently.

I'm sorry this isn't written well. I'm tired and "fuck it".

Running Inquisition of Kozilek instead of Hymn to Tourach can be really tempting once you realize it's an option. I'll admit, I did it. But it's not really something you should do. While having the option of more surgical discard so that you can sneak through a threat or something is nice, it can be... not as good in some cases. Against many decks, pitching targeted discard after targeted discard at their face is simply letting you live on borrowed time. Hymn to Tourach allows you to turn the game around. Even if you don't hit two Brainstorms and a pot of gold, it gives you time to make the game yours again. Not to mention that the card is MVP against so many decks that you can otherwise have huge amounts of difficulty with like 12Post or ANT.

In any case, definitely max out Thoughtseize before you begin including Inquisition of Kozilek. Don't listen to the outdated (half year) primer that rationalizes Inquisition. Good? Absolutely. Better than Thoughtseize? No way. The first time you miss their Batterskull or Jace or Empty the Warrens or Natural Order because "it saves me two life" you will understand. Jund can afford to get greedy. Yes, you're having problems with UR and yes Burn has a good chance to roll over us, but they alone are not justification. Against any other deck in the format, that two life is utterly irrelevant up until the point when the game is already decided.


UR Delver is tricky, but very winnable. I don't care about this matchup and I don't feel like writing about it. Find someone and play twenty games against them. The solutions should become readily apparent.


Don't ever side out Goyfs against Miracles. Your solution to kicking the dick out of them is dropping a creature at a time and letting it work. Rest in Peace is an obstacle not a wall, and can be killed or ignored. Besides, what would you be bringing in instead of the Tarmogoyfs. Automatically out of the board should be Punishing Fire and Golgari Charm, and either 2xWasteland if they fetch exclusively basics or 1xGrove of the Burnwillows if you see non-basics. Plus, you should be ready to side out those spare Inquisitions/Hymns. Then you bring in the Pithing Needle, Red Elemental Blast, Pyroblast, Chains of Mephistopheles, and 1xSurgical Extraction. 5-8x cards out. 6x cards in. What are those Goyfs actually becoming?


You shouldn't ever side out Bloodbraid Elf (or I guess Huntmaster). Nothing can clock you before it comes down. Or, can, but won't. Shouldn't. And if something does, you're fucked either way so don't worry didn't make a difference. Bloodbraid Elf is your trump card, stabilizer, and clock all rolled into one package. Without it, you have no game to keep fighting for. It's all well and fine to say "well, I'll take out Bloodbraid Elf because there's a chance I won't cast it exactly on turn four. I'll side out Tarmogoyf because they're playing Rest in Peace. I'll side out Dark Confidant because I can't spare the life.", but where does that leave you? Your creatures are run because they are the creatures you want.

[ironclad8690]

1) I think that the 2-for-1 effect of Hymn is too good to pass up, but some others have sworn by Inquisition. I prefer to have a broader range of applications with my discard, but if your meta contains a lot of aggro and mana denial I can see Inquisition being better. Hymn on the play is almost always better though, even against aggro decks.

2) Crack your fetches during their upkeep. This almost always puts them off their tempo. If they are heavy on Price of Progress, try to be conservative with your lands and leave wasteland up for your own stuff. Leave DRS up to blank a potential Snapcaster Mage. Postboard Pyroblast is your best card, I might run more than 1 of that type of effect if I were you. Also note that if they play Misdirection, Red Elemental Blast is better because it has to target a blue source; Pyroblast can target anything but only has an effect if it is blue. I would definitely bring in Jitte and any lifegaining effects that you have. If they play Pyromancer/True Name Nemesis, you will want golgari carm/sweepers as well.

3) I usually take out 1 Goyf against Rest in Peace, but never more than that. It is a crucial card to pressure these types of decks into having the RiP in the first place. Use your Decays on the Rest in Peace to grow goyf back.

4) I only sideboard out BBE against really fast combo decks, and even then only 1-2 of them. It is always better post board because you are more likely to hit your relevant cards with cascade, but sometimes you need other cards more. I used to even run a 4th BBE in my sideboard for the fair decks.

Hope this advice helps!

[Nuke is Good]

Took Jund today to a small event and took a hell of a beating 16 man event:

Round 1 Burn against a friend with my borrowed burn deck
G1 Turn 4 killed from a double fireblast. I got him down to 12 life only.
G2 I stick two DRS and a Dark Confidant with a Jitte which nets me enough life to get stall into BBE flipping a goyf. I win around turn 8
G3 Hymn to Tourach whyyyyyy? I had the unfortunate displeasure of tasting my SB tech. I took 5 damage from Guerilla tactics being discarded, for the rest of the match I was hesitant to cast Hymn again because I know I put 4 of those cards in the sideboard. I flip the only two BBE's from Bob in my deck causing a stinging loss.

Round 2 D&T
G1 As soon as I saw the Thalia I knew what I was dealing with. I get my Punishing Fire engine online and manage to keep all Mom's off the field allowing me to beat face.
G2 I honestly did not expect G2 he would use the RIP/Helm Combo against me so I lost against that.
G3 Turn 1 Pithing Needle Vial, Turn 2 DRS, Turn 3 Goyf. He didn't draw a threat until maybe turn 5 but I had a Liliana already which I did a -2, he conceded after that.

Round 3 Burn
G1 Turn 1 Thoughseize, as soon as I saw 2 flame rifts, PoP, and a fireblast I knew I was in a world of pain. I fetched basics hoping to mitigate the damage, Liliana does a good job here. Bloodbraid Elf into Hymn this time discarding lava spike and fireblast. I manage to win.
G2 I keep a 2 land hand with DRS and Liliana but I didn't get another land after that, so bob was pinging me for 2-3 every turn. I die to a bolt.
G3 I'm not sure why I dropped so many lands but I took a PoP for 8 killing me.

Round 4 Burn
I lost games 1 and 2 thats all I can say



I know now I can't bring Jund to that meta again, it's still my go-to deck to bring to a SCG Open though. In the past I used to think burn was a fringe strategy and wasn't worth considering SB slots on, but lately I think I have to figure out something to combat it.

The list I use:

Main Deck (60)

Creatures (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

Spells (22)
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
2 Sylvan Library
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Punishing Fire
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Liliana of the Veil

Lands (23)
1 Forest
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
3 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard (15)
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Life from the Loam
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pernicious Deed

[FoolofaTook]

4 Thoughtseize and 4 Hymns main. 2 Kitchen Finks and 2 Obstinate Baloth in the side, 4 Dark Confidant out. That gives you a fighting chance against burn alongside the DRS. Don't board out your Thoughtseizes in the matchup. They're worth the 2 life loss to get things like Eidolon, PoP and Fireblast out of their hands early.

[Neffy]

@ afedelejr
against URx you should be playing the control role. You almost never can race them, so take your time and play around daze. Go land-go a few times, get basics to avoid wastelands and use decay for the delver that flips and beats you. that works for me.

@ iamajellydonut
I disagree on the miracle side out (if i understood you correctly). I am testing day-in and day-out with my roomie and his miracles and I would not be taking out Pun.Fire. Ever. It laughs at jace and if forcing it is just more win for you. The only thing they can do to it is RIP (which can be avoided by decay) and holding a 2 on top with counterbalance (which can be avoided by decay).
I do side out 2 goyfs because of RIP, which might be too much I recon. I generally remove 2 waste, 2 bolts (since I have p.fire), 1 golgari charm/decay (they typically board out balance) and normally take in pyroblasts, a k-grip, 1 slaugther games (awesooome!), 1 null rod + 1 needle. Null rod is really sweet if they tend to board in Eng.Explosives.

[iamajellydonut]

@ iamajellydonut
I would not be taking out Pun.Fire. Ever ... The only thing they can do to it is RIP (which can be avoided by decay)
I do side out 2 goyfs because of RIP

This doesn't really make sense.

Anyway, I disagree with you disagreeing with me on sideboarding. Taking out creatures is basically doing their job for them. 100% of the plan against Miracles is to make them go one-for-one with your creatures till you inevitably win. Their 6-8 removal spells vs your 11-12 creatures. By taking out Goyfs, you're literally killing yourself. And for what reason? Rest in Peace? True, Rest in Peace sucks dick when it lands, but it's not guaranteed to land and you can easily remove it for a net result of "no harm done". Just to make sure I was thinking straight, I did take a peek at the recent placing SCG decks. Four decks. Two Rest in Peace. Granted, going back a little bit further you see some decks playing 2xRest in Peace, but it still goes to show that Rest in Peace is not significant enough to kill yourself over.

Also, don't take out Abrupt Decays. It hits Sensei's Divining Top (which is the focal point of any game and the reason you're bringing in that Null Rod). It hits Rest in Peace. It hits Pithing Needle. It hits whatever creatures. Plus, while it's common for Miracles to board out Counterbalance, it's not guaranteed.



4 Thoughtseize and 4 Hymns main. 2 Kitchen Finks and 2 Obstinate Baloth in the side, 4 Dark Confidant out. That gives you a fighting chance against burn alongside the DRS. Don't board out your Thoughtseizes in the matchup. They're worth the 2 life loss to get things like Eidolon, PoP and Fireblast out of their hands early.

While Finks and Baloth are guaranteed to crush their puny skulls, Burn is literally the only deck you would board them in against. That's way too narrow to justify unless you're going to an eight-man and see seven Burn and yourself.

Also, on a general note (and this is for Took not Nuke as I saw you mentioned Bob being in play post-board), don't automatically board out Dark Confidant. It's a body. It lets you block. It lets you clock. It gets you cards. "Oh, but it costs life" isn't particularly relevant when the average life lost is 1.25-ish and can be offset with Sylvan Library. I typically take out 1-2 depending on how much and what I have to board in, but it always stays in to some degree.


p.s. Speaking of these two decks, I'm actually looking for a sideboard card that's effective against both Miracles and Burn. If anyone has any ideas, I'm all ears.

[ironclad8690]

p.s. Speaking of these two decks, I'm actually looking for a sideboard card that's effective against both Miracles and Burn. If anyone has any ideas, I'm all ears.

I recently tried playing Thragtusk in my board. Against miracles he leaves a 3/3 body when they remove him, and against burn you get 5 life and a helluva clock.

I have also tried batterskull, which can give miracles fits unless they draw d sphere or will of the council. The only thing is batterskull might be too slow against burn since you have to wait til combat.

Sword of war and peace would be good too because it protects from StP and angels and gains life against burn.

These choices might be too far fetched though.

[afedelejr]

I like the idea of SoWP. It might be worth a shot. I've always been wary of 5 drops so I don't have much experience with then. I do think we need to be more prepared for burn though. I'm attending SCG this Sunday I think.

[iamajellydonut]

I recently tried playing Thragtusk in my board. Against miracles he leaves a 3/3 body when they remove him, and against burn you get 5 life and a helluva clock.

:O

Fuck this is silly! I'm wary of moving into Price of Progress range though. I can usually just keep it down to a single fetchland ready to search up a Badlands in terms of PoP's effectiveness. Thragtusk would force me to give them two meaty non-basics.

[ironclad8690]

I like the idea of SoWP. It might be worth a shot. I've always been wary of 5 drops so I don't have much experience with then. I do think we need to be more prepared for burn though. I'm attending SCG this Sunday I think.

Nice, you should write a tourny report if you do.

@jellydonut

Yeah, that is the crappy thing about tusk. At least he is "cancelling out" the price if you only need to have 2 non basics. I will say burn felt much easier when I played the non-punishing version, but death and taxes elves and merfolk got way harder.

[afedelejr]

Any thoughts on Bow of Nylea? It can come down on turn 2 and just negates so much of burns deck.

[iamajellydonut]

Yeah, that is the crappy thing about tusk. At least he is "cancelling out" the price if you only need to have 2 non basics. I will say burn felt much easier when I played the non-punishing version, but death and taxes elves and merfolk got way harder.

I wouldn't say those match-ups got "way" harder. Punishing Fire definitely helps loads, but Merfolk isn't played, and other cards are still far more key with regards to Death and Taxes.

Anyway, I think I might try the Tusk tonight over Bitterblossom if I can dig up a copy. For the record, here's the current board for my non-Punishing Fire list. I like it a lot, but I do still feel vulnerable to Burn. I'm loath to add more Duress as I don't even like the copy I have now but use it begrudgingly. I've been considering Umezawa's Jitte a lot recently, but I don't feel it does enough to warrant a slot. Bitterblossom is mainly the card I'm looking to trade out. House as it is against Miracles, it doesn't do much against anything else and it's a poor excuse for a "body" against anything you just need to hurl dudes at. Chains of Mephistopheles will likely gain Duress's slot after Khans's release.

1*Mindbreak Trap
1*Bitterblossom
1*Actual Super Secret Tech
1*Duress
1*Massacre
2*Surgical Extraction
1*Ancient Grudge
1*Pyroblast
1*Red Elemental Blast
1*Pernicious Deed
1*Grafdigger's Cage
1*Null Rod
1*Pithing Needle
1*Relic of Progenitus

[afedelejr]

Your sideboard is interesting as recently I've been going back and forth between mostly one - ofs or have a lot of 2 and 3 ofs. Have the same type of game plan against a lot of the same decks in regards to sideboarding. I'm not sure which one is better.

On a side note, does anyone have a lot of legacy staples on MTGO and would like to Jam games against each other? I have a large collection and can put together most decks I think.

[iamajellydonut]

Any thoughts on Bow of Nylea? It can come down on turn 2 and just negates so much of burns deck.

It doesn't necessarily come down on turn 2 as Deathrite Shaman is already Public Enemy No. 1 and is more often than not as burnt as a toaster strudel, but I actually like this suggestion a lot. It would also be exceptionally effective against UR Delver, though I'm not sure how much I would like it against BUG/WUR or anything else.

[iamajellydonut]

Your sideboard is interesting as recently I've been going back and forth between mostly one - ofs or have a lot of 2 and 3 ofs. Have the same type of game plan against a lot of the same decks in regards to sideboarding. I'm not sure which one is better.

I don't really see a problem with one-ofs. It's not like you want eight REBs or a slew of Null Rods. I feel like it's a position we're pushed into, but one that we're pretty comfortable with. If we were looking at decks A-Z and only bringing one card each silver-bullet-style I might see a problem, but I'm bringing in nine cards against Miracles with only two of them having the same "name" (REB). The only uncomfortable aspects are ones that are independent of any one-of discussion such as "Mindbreak Trap is kind of useless but every time I take it out I play Belcher".

Also, I keep going back and forth with regards to MODO. It basically always comes down to "Goyf is still $90 even online".

[Neffy]

This doesn't really make sense.

Anyway, I disagree with you disagreeing with me on sideboarding. Taking out creatures is basically doing their job for them. 100% of the plan against Miracles is to make them go one-for-one with your creatures till you inevitably win. Their 6-8 removal spells vs your 11-12 creatures. By taking out Goyfs, you're literally killing yourself. And for what reason? Rest in Peace? True, Rest in Peace sucks dick when it lands, but it's not guaranteed to land and you can easily remove it for a net result of "no harm done". Just to make sure I was thinking straight, I did take a peek at the recent placing SCG decks. Four decks. Two Rest in Peace. Granted, going back a little bit further you see some decks playing 2xRest in Peace, but it still goes to show that Rest in Peace is not significant enough to kill yourself over.

Also, don't take out Abrupt Decays. It hits Sensei's Divining Top (which is the focal point of any game and the reason you're bringing in that Null Rod). It hits Rest in Peace. It hits Pithing Needle. It hits whatever creatures. Plus, while it's common for Miracles to board out Counterbalance, it's not guaranteed.



I get your point on the creatures, thanks for commenting. Want to share want you do board out then? THanks

[afedelejr]

Has anyone seen anything interesting for us in the new set? I didn't see too much for jund.

[sdematt]

Has anyone seen anything interesting for us in the new set? I didn't see too much for jund.

The delve removal spell could be interesting because it does deal with certain creatures (Griselbrand, Tombstalker), but they're very minor. You might want to play it as a 1-of like we did Pulse/Diabolic Edict in the past.

-Matt

[afedelejr]

So here's the list I think I am going to try this Sunday at SCG Edison.

Lands (24)
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Badlands
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest

Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bloodbraid Elf

Instants / Sorceries
3 Punishing Fire
4 Thoughtseize
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Golgari Charm

Enchantments
2 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers
4 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard
1 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Duress
1 Life from the Loam
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Bow of Nylea
2 Hymn to Tourach

I've excluded a couple discard in the mainboard and opted for a lightning bolt and a maelstrom pulse.

I'm also running 24 lands. How many fetchlands do we need? I would like to cut the 9th for a second Urborg.

I've tested Huntmaster for a week or so. At least 30 matches and I am not impressed. I don't think it's better than Bloodbraid Elf. It doesn't impact the board quick enough and it can get countered whereas BBE usually gets me at least one permanent.

Bow of Nylea has been off and on. If you can get it in the early game, it's really good. It practically wins you the game. The late game makes it a little too slow if it's against Burn or a Delver matchup.

Sideboard cards I am still thinking about are: Krosan grip (Taking out Ancient Grudge), Null Rod, Slaughter Games (Although I feel like we have a decent enough of a game against Miracles that it may be a win-more card), Pernicious Deed, and possibly a 5 drop like Thragtusk or Battleskull (Although I am hesitant to play a 5 drop in this deck.)

I'm also curious about Garruk Wildspeak or Flip Garruk. Has anyone tested any of these in Jund? If so, what matchups are they for? Also, what about Koth?

Thanks

[FoolofaTook]

While Finks and Baloth are guaranteed to crush their puny skulls, Burn is literally the only deck you would board them in against. That's way too narrow to justify unless you're going to an eight-man and see seven Burn and yourself.

Also, on a general note (and this is for Took not Nuke as I saw you mentioned Bob being in play post-board), don't automatically board out Dark Confidant. It's a body. It lets you block. It lets you clock. It gets you cards. "Oh, but it costs life" isn't particularly relevant when the average life lost is 1.25-ish and can be offset with Sylvan Library. I typically take out 1-2 depending on how much and what I have to board in, but it always stays in to some degree.


p.s. Speaking of these two decks, I'm actually looking for a sideboard card that's effective against both Miracles and Burn. If anyone has any ideas, I'm all ears.

If I have Baloth in the sideboard, which I will only really do in a meta where I know Burn is an issue, I also wind up siding it in all the time against Liliana of the Veil and occasionally against Jace (not in Miracles though.) Baloth is a nasty beating against Liliana and if an opponent is using Jace in a situation where life totals actually matter for me Baloth is a beating against them also. 4 life per play and they have to keep putting it back into my hand until they find removal or a counter or Jace gets down to 1 and they brainstorm off of him in desperation.

In BUG 2 Obstinate Baloth and 2 Vendilion Clique makes Jace cry sometimes.

[ironclad8690]

So here's the list I think I am going to try this Sunday at SCG Edison.

Lands (24)
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Badlands
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest

Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bloodbraid Elf

Instants / Sorceries
3 Punishing Fire
4 Thoughtseize
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Golgari Charm

Enchantments
2 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers
4 Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard
1 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Duress
1 Life from the Loam
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Bow of Nylea
2 Hymn to Tourach

I've excluded a couple discard in the mainboard and opted for a lightning bolt and a maelstrom pulse.

I'm also running 24 lands. How many fetchlands do we need? I would like to cut the 9th for a second Urborg.

I've tested Huntmaster for a week or so. At least 30 matches and I am not impressed. I don't think it's better than Bloodbraid Elf. It doesn't impact the board quick enough and it can get countered whereas BBE usually gets me at least one permanent.

Bow of Nylea has been off and on. If you can get it in the early game, it's really good. It practically wins you the game. The late game makes it a little too slow if it's against Burn or a Delver matchup.

Sideboard cards I am still thinking about are: Krosan grip (Taking out Ancient Grudge), Null Rod, Slaughter Games (Although I feel like we have a decent enough of a game against Miracles that it may be a win-more card), Pernicious Deed, and possibly a 5 drop like Thragtusk or Battleskull (Although I am hesitant to play a 5 drop in this deck.)

I'm also curious about Garruk Wildspeak or Flip Garruk. Has anyone tested any of these in Jund? If so, what matchups are they for? Also, what about Koth?

Thanks

I have played wildspeaker in Modern Jund and I played a ton of Garruk Relentless in legacy Maverick.

Wildspeaker is really good with manlands like Treetop Village and Raging Ravine, but I dunno if he is good enough in legacy.

Relentless is great against Miracles, Stoneblade, other Jund decks. He can be removal if you really need that, but mainly the token generation is really solid.

Hope that helps!

[iamajellydonut]

I get your point on the creatures, thanks for commenting. Want to share want you do board out then? THanks

Sure, but while typing up this list I realized my memory is failing because I can't figure out the discrepancy. I mean, that's definitely my sideboard, and that's what I usually board out, but it's 8 vs 9. I'll have to edit this when I'm not at work.

In:
+1*Bitterblossom
+1*Actual Super Secret Tech
+1*Surgical Extraction
+1*Pyroblast
+1*Red Elemental Blast
+1*Pernicious Deed
+1*Null Rod
+1*Pithing Needle

Out:
-2*Wasteland
-1*Other Tech
-1*More Tech
-2*Hymn to Tourach
-1*Lightning Bolt
-1*Golgari Charm
-1*Maelstrom Pulse


I've excluded a couple discard in the mainboard and opted for a lightning bolt and a maelstrom pulse.

:(

Anyway, with this in mind, I really don't see the point in Urborg here. Even with Hymn it ends up as more dangerous than useful, but without it, your only double-black card is Liliana. It feels like an enormous and worthless liability.

The usual fetchland count would see you replacing Urborg with a fetch and flat out adding another fetch in general. With Punishing Fire I'm really an advocate of the 24 lands simply because that final land can fill in gaps, but I wouldn't necessarily fault you for doing 23.

I've never really been able to get behind Garruk Relentless, but I've had huge amounts of success with Garruk Wildspeaker in BUG. He helps give more mana to churn through all those cantrips and Strixes and whatnot while still being a very solid threat and game-ender himself. But, while I've been looking for any excuse, I haven't really found a reason to want him in Jund. Does work? Fuck yes. Better than our other stuff? "Eeeh".

[ironclad8690]

Hey guys,

I was just looking at Cory Teran's sideboard from a little while ago, and I was wondering about some of the choices.

2 Ancient Grudge
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Golgari Charm
3 Pyroblast
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize

Now, he opted for 9 maindeck discard spells, 8 removal spells, and typical creature and liliana counts.

I am assuming his sideboard has so much removal because his maindeck is slightly weaker to midrange/creature decks.

What types of decks would you bring in Engineered Explosives against though? Does that come in against Delver? Or just decks like elves?

Howbout Diabolic Edit? Obviously it has implications against Reanimator and Sneak Attack in the combo department, but what fair decks does it come in against?

[afedelejr]

I am streaming the Legacy DE right now if anyone wants to jump in and chat.

twitch.tv/alwysbrke

[iamajellydonut]

Hey guys,

I was just looking at Cory Teran's sideboard from a little while ago, and I was wondering about some of the choices.

Keep in mind that True-Name Nemesis had hit a month beforehand and the meta was, at least at Providence, 100% Stoneblade/WUR. I'd imagine it became slightly less ridiculous over the course of that month, but I'd still be more than willing to bet that the goal of his sideboard was to brutally shit on True-Name Nemesis while still remaining semi-versatile with regards to the rest of the field.



I am streaming the Legacy DE right now if anyone wants to jump in and chat.

twitch.tv/alwysbrke

Trying on my phone, but Twitch is being a jerk. :(

[afedelejr]

I'm going to stream the 2pm Legacy DE if you guys can come and check it out. I am making a ton of mistakes and losing miserably :)

twitch.tv/alwysbrke

-Anthony

[ironclad8690]

Played in my weekly legacy tourny yesterday. Lost to tin fins in 2 games, lost to new UR treasure cruise delver in 3 games (very close), then lost to lands in 2 games.

Tin fins were close, game 1 I thoughtseize him and take away his only tutor entomb, follow up with drs on turn 2. I flood out with no other permanents but lands, and he eventually draws enough cards to shallow grave and entomb with a grisel already in the yard. Game 2 I keep a deathrite hand hoping he cant go off turn 1 but he does. He doesnt kill me, but he pithing needles deathrite and draws a million cards. i lose the next turn. Maybe i should have mulled into turn 1 discard or surgical.

Vs UR it was the typical he plays creature I try to remove sometimes it gets countered. Ended up getting to the point where a forked bolt off the top of his deck kills me. Game 2 I win by curving bolt into decay into punishing with mana up for daze. i then play engineered plague on humans and he scoops. Game 3 i play turn 2 engineered plague but he already has made 3 elementals and swiftspear doesnt die due to 1/2. He aggros me out while FoWing my punishing fires and I lose.

Vs lands, he was able to destroy my creatures quickly enough that I didnt have any pressure and marit kills me. Game 2 is very back and forth. I dredge through 3/4 of my deck without hitting a wasteland, and he gets marit the turn before i find wasteland dredged to my yard.

I still think these matchups are all fine, this was just a case of the bad luck. Maybe I will cut something from my sideboard for grafdiggers now that tin fins is a force in my local meta.

[hovercraft]

Played in my weekly legacy tourny yesterday. Lost to tin fins in 2 games, lost to new UR treasure cruise delver in 3 games (very close), then lost to lands in 2 games.

Tin fins were close, game 1 I thoughtseize him and take away his only tutor entomb, follow up with drs on turn 2. I flood out with no other permanents but lands, and he eventually draws enough cards to shallow grave and entomb with a grisel already in the yard. Game 2 I keep a deathrite hand hoping he cant go off turn 1 but he does. He doesnt kill me, but he pithing needles deathrite and draws a million cards. i lose the next turn. Maybe i should have mulled into turn 1 discard or surgical.

Vs UR it was the typical he plays creature I try to remove sometimes it gets countered. Ended up getting to the point where a forked bolt off the top of his deck kills me. Game 2 I win by curving bolt into decay into punishing with mana up for daze. i then play engineered plague on humans and he scoops. Game 3 i play turn 2 engineered plague but he already has made 3 elementals and swiftspear doesnt die due to 1/2. He aggros me out while FoWing my punishing fires and I lose.

Vs lands, he was able to destroy my creatures quickly enough that I didnt have any pressure and marit kills me. Game 2 is very back and forth. I dredge through 3/4 of my deck without hitting a wasteland, and he gets marit the turn before i find wasteland dredged to my yard.

I still think these matchups are all fine, this was just a case of the bad luck. Maybe I will cut something from my sideboard for grafdiggers now that tin fins is a force in my local meta.

I just realized this week that Grafdigger's cage also stops Natural Order and Green Sun's zenith too. Great with the popularity of Elves lately

[afedelejr]

Hey Everyone,

I played in the SCG Edison Legacy event this past weekend. I had a blast. My overall record was 4-4 which is ok for me. I've done better in the past but since I just started getting back into it, I wasn't too upset.

This is my first attempt at writing a report. I attempted to take copious notes during the matches.

Round 1 - BUG Delver

He played ponder turn 1, and I played DRS. He followed up with a Decay on my Shaman. I went T2 Shaman. He then went T3 AD on my Shaman. I figured that he might have been BUG delver with the Tombstalker build since he was killing all of my shamans so quickly. He then drops the Tombstalker on the board. I play a Liliana and she get's FOW'ed. He attacks for 5 and I follow up with a Punishing Fire + Bolt to kill the stalker. I follow up with a Goyf and get a beat or two in before it dies but he isn't able to do anything after that and I just clean up. Game 2 he plays Bayou and passes and misses his second land drop so I waste the Bayou and its game.

1 - 0

Round 2 - Rug Delver

I still am having such a hard time with this matchup. I just can't seem to beat these guys! Game 1 he plays fetch and passes. I play my fetch and pass. He plays a trop and passes. I play a second land and pass but he decides to Brainstorm. I said ok but quickly realized I could have fetched in response forcing him to crack his fetch and possibly BS lock himself if he wanted to stifle me. He then goes ahead and Delver's me out. I never had a shot. Game 2 I forgot to bring in Life from the Loam which didn't really matter because I just flooded out and never really played anything. I did make a huge mistake by playing a Confidant right into a known Forked Bolt.

1 - 1

Round 3 - Esper Death Blade, Stone blade, whatever blade.

Our first game lasted 35 minutes. He went for a T2 Mystic but I quickly ate it with a punishing fire landing the BS in his hand for a while. I was putting out threats but he used 6 StPS on me. There was a point where I had to Thoughtseize him forcing him to play out his BS so that I could Maelstrom pulse in afterwards which meant that my Punishing Fire was left in the GY I cannot remember how he got it out but he did somehow. I had an active library and took 8 dmg 3 different times trying to find another Punishing Fire or removal spell but eventually died to his multiple x/1's and x/2's. In game 2 I mulligan'd to 5 and He was able to get Batterskull online quickly and he just controlled the board from there.

1 - 2

Round 4 - Omnitell

First matchup against Combo. I am pretty happy I made it this far without facing it but it was going to happen eventually. Game 1 I just lost on turn 3 or 4. No interaction. In Game 2 he plays Leyline which I anticipated but still kept a Thoughtseize hand with a REB and Pyro also. I was able to apply enough pressure with Goyfs and Liliana to still keep him from going off. Game 3 he again played Leyline but I had the Golgari Charm in hand to deal with that. We get to turn 3 until I draw the green so I charm him and then thoughtseize him and this is what I see:

Show and Tell
Island
Enter the Infinite
Cunning Wish

I don't know why he didn't wish in response but I thought about this and decided to take the wish so that I could surgical it from his GY and then he couldn't get Release the Ants from the SB. He ended up drawing Omniscience and show and telling it into play and then playing Enter the Infinite and killing me with Emrakul. We had a discussion afterwards whether or not that was the right play and he suggested that I should have taken Show and Tell instead.

1 - 3

Round 5 - Poison (Berserk Stompy)

I won game 1 just by killing all of his dudes. In game 2 and 3 I mulliganed to 5 and just lost on turn 3 each game. Nothing to talk about.

1 - 4

Round 6 - Death and Taxes

He mulliganed to 5 in game 1 and I just won due to his inability to play anything. In game 2 it was a very grindy match with him using Mangara Thalia + Karakas to constantly keep my board stalled / cleared but finally I drew a wasteland and proceeded to win from there. This is another game where I did not see a single Punishing fire in over 15 draws.

2 - 4

Round 7 - Miracles

Once you get down into the x - 4 bracket people really don't have their hearts into it anymore unless they are there like me to just practice and get better. This was a fairly uninteresting match and I just tried to remember to not overextend and to play cautiously.

Round 8 - Storm

I lost right away to a turn 2 Ad Nauseum bringing him down to 2 life. Where are my burn spells!!! In game 2 and 3 I was able to keep him slowed down with discard and REB's / Pyros. I could also tell that he was just going through the motions like my previous opponent.

There were some very valuable lessons that I learned. This tournament, coupled with the half-dozen Legacy DE's on MTGO I've been doing has really shown me that my biggest hurdle right now is that I don't think things through. I have to slow down and have a plan prior to doing anything. I also find that I do not think about what my opponent can be doing, or how I can lose a lot during the match. I tend to just play the cards as they are drawn which has resulted in my many losses. These things are the biggest things that I am trying to be more aware of recently.

I am going to play in a local Legacy event tonight. I will try to take better notes along with Sideboarding as I am sure I am doing this wrong.

Any suggestions would be welcomed!

Anthony

[ironclad8690]

It sounds like you had quite a few unfortunate mulligans. I find the same thing happens to me sometimes.

I probably would have taken show and tell or enter the infinite in round 4, since those cards usually most directly lead to a loss. It is a fairly redundant deck, and seeing 2/3 combo pieces in hand is always a bummer. I am never sure if I should try to hold Pyroblast/REB for the combo pieces or burn them early on cantrips.

I have also found infect to be a tough matchup, postboard it is sweeper or bust pretty often. Inkmoth is the trump for them since they have multiple ways of protecting it and it doesn't die to Abrupt Decay. I like to pithing needle it in games 2/3.

Stoneblade is usually a pretty decent matchup, it sounds like you just got unlucky.

Vs RUG Delver, you can always crack your fetches on their Upkeep to try and make them stifle their mana away, but sometimes they will just win on the back of FoW Daze and Stifle anyway. This will happen no matter what deck you play too.

Nice job on the victories an hopefully next time you don't get as many crappy opening hands!

[ironclad8690]

Treasure Cruise is proving to be a problem. I have faced many a Young Pyromancer deck in the past couple of days, and even with Golgari Charm I am feeling serious heat. Hymn and Thoughtseize are not feeling as powerful anymore. Gerry T feels as though TC has invalidated Shardless, and Todd Anderson thinks it may invalidate (can you believe it?) BGx decks in modern. Have you guys been experiencing this at all?

[Dice_Box]

No, when I saw the list I dusted off Patriot Delver and smacked them in the face with Jitte and SoFI. In testing though I did notice a few toys when I was playing Painter.

First, Thorn of Amethyst/3Sphere kicks them in the balls. Think of them much like a Storm deck. They will want to play lots of spells to buff Swifty and gain tokens. If you make everything more expensive, you slow them down.

Second, Rolling Earthquake is a fucking house. I mean its a 15 dollar card at most that offers little damage off Bob and just wipes their side of the table for every little cost. Buy some. In casting it you lose Bob and they lose the game.

Lastly, if you can stone wall their attack they tend not to have anything else. They have some limited burn, but if you stem the bleeding early you do not have to worry about it. Once they have nothing on the table, they really have nothing to offer in the way of pressure unless they draw nothing but burn.

[ironclad8690]

No, when I saw the list I dusted off Patriot Delver and smacked them in the face with Jitte and SoFI. In testing though I did notice a few toys when I was playing Painter.

First, Thorn of Amethyst/3Sphere kicks them in the balls. Think of them much like a Storm deck. They will want to play lots of spells to buff Swifty and gain tokens. If you make everything more expensive, you slow them down.

Second, Rolling Earthquake is a fucking house. I mean its a 15 dollar card at most that offers little damage off Bob and just wipes their side of the table for every little cost. Buy some. In casting it you lose Bob and they lose the game.

Lastly, if you can stone wall their attack they tend not to have anything else. They have some limited burn, but if you stem the bleeding early you do not have to worry about it. Once they have nothing on the table, they really have nothing to offer in the way of pressure unless they draw nothing but burn.

Thorn of Amythist is a cool idea, I like having a permanent with that effect vs the likes of storm. I will make so.e space for that in my board.

[iamajellydonut]

Second, Rolling Earthquake is a fucking house. I mean its a 15 dollar card at most that offers little damage off Bob and just wipes their side of the table for every little cost. Buy some. In casting it you lose Bob and they lose the game.

I actually like this suggestion a lot, but, aside from hurting less off Confidant, have you found it to be any better than Toxic Deluge?

[hovercraft]

Treasure Cruise is proving to be a problem. I have faced many a Young Pyromancer deck in the past couple of days, and even with Golgari Charm I am feeling serious heat. Hymn and Thoughtseize are not feeling as powerful anymore. Gerry T feels as though TC has invalidated Shardless, and Todd Anderson thinks it may invalidate (can you believe it?) BGx decks in modern. Have you guys been experiencing this at all?

TC makes me wish I had some Chains of M. I like the suggestion of Thorn, as its a pretty versatile SB card against other decks as well. I like Rolling earthquake, though it is a bad cascade. Fire Covenant is another similar option, but I guess it's no better than Toxic Deluge besides instant speed.

Pyroblast/REB are still great options against those decks. I am also playing 1 mainboard Scooze lately too due to some local dredge players but he helps against delve too. What graveyard hate are you playing in your SB? I usually like Graf Cage, but if Delve TC decks are prominent Nihil Spellbomb is probably better. Also Engineered Plague naming Elemental works too.

[Dice_Box]

Honestly no, that is because my testing was with Painter, not Jund so I had no option to use Toxic. When mentioning Toxic I like it more, save for the one time when you want to burn out Walkers. But since the deck in question is not running any, right now that does not matter.

Edit: I use a mix of Crypt and Cage for Sideboard options.

[iamajellydonut]

What graveyard hate are you playing in your SB?

"Graveyard hate"? Grafdigger's Cage and two Surgical Extractions is what I usually run with, but I did add a Nihil Spellbomb and I've been relatively happy with it. I tried Relic of Progenitus, but stopped for obvious reasons even though it was hella strong. And Tormod's Crypt isn't worth it here. Its mana cost doesn't have any relevant bearing and it doesn't replace itself.

[ironclad8690]

I am playing 2 surgicals and an ooze. I think I will cut my 24th land for ooze maindeck (tin fins and lands in my local meta), since I feel like I have been flooding out a bit too much. With the extra space I will probably add a grafdiggers or spellbomb.

[iamajellydonut]

So, I'm looking at my maindeck and I have one flex spot up for grabs thanks to a lack of Punishing Fire. I've already got 1xGolgari Charm and 1xMaelstrom Pulse in the main, but I can't settle on that last slot. Right now I'm using Diabolic Edict and it's working out pretty well and I feel like it's well placed in today's environment, but I just feel like there's something better out there and I didn't know if anyone had any ideas. I'd prefer it to be a general usage kill spell and I'd prefer not to add another Abrupt Decay.

In other news, Wooded Foothills always seems to be the fetch I have whenever I want a basic Swamp and it makes me feel really bad about my life.

[ironclad8690]

So, I'm looking at my maindeck and I have one flex spot up for grabs thanks to a lack of Punishing Fire. I've already got 1xGolgari Charm and 1xMaelstrom Pulse in the main, but I can't settle on that last slot. Right now I'm using Diabolic Edict and it's working out pretty well and I feel like it's well placed in today's environment, but I just feel like there's something better out there and I didn't know if anyone had any ideas. I'd prefer it to be a general usage kill spell and I'd prefer not to add another Abrupt Decay.

In other news, Wooded Foothills always seems to be the fetch I have whenever I want a basic Swamp and it makes me feel really bad about my life.

Do you have a maindeck loam? I tried that out a week or two ago and wastelocked some guys. It felt awesome if your meta is durdle heavy.

If not id say edict is the way to go. I think diabolic is best even though chainers has put up better results in the past.

[FoolofaTook]

Treasure Cruise is proving to be a problem. I have faced many a Young Pyromancer deck in the past couple of days, and even with Golgari Charm I am feeling serious heat. Hymn and Thoughtseize are not feeling as powerful anymore. Gerry T feels as though TC has invalidated Shardless, and Todd Anderson thinks it may invalidate (can you believe it?) BGx decks in modern. Have you guys been experiencing this at all?

I've gone off of Jund since Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time were spoiled. The inconsistency that Jund presented compared to Delver and Miracles was offset by the list forcing 1 for 2 trades over and over again, leading to big card advantage over time. With the card recovery available through TC and to a lesser extent DTT the trade-off is no longer a good one.

You must have consistency to survive in this meta because blue now has both consistency and card advantage available.

At a minimum I'd have to find a way to play 4 Sensei's Divining Tops before I would pick up a non-blue multi-color list again.

[Nuke is Good]

I still play Jund on MTGO with good results but I always get a burn player that'll drop me to 2-2 on a DE. The LGS has even more burn players so I cannot use the deck in the shop, if I reach top 8 in the shop's legacy league I'd be using Jund since they are basically Delver variants that I have a fighting chance with.

The rise of burn is what is killing me in this deck. Treasure cruise isn't scaring me so much since I run chains in the board and I'm considering adding more discard.

[iamajellydonut]

Do you have a maindeck loam? I tried that out a week or two ago and wastelocked some guys. It felt awesome if your meta is durdle heavy.

Unless I'm playing a Loam deck, I hate Loam. Especially without Punishing Fire.



The rise of burn is what is killing me in this deck.

Pretty much this. I mean, I know it's winnable, but it's easily the worst match-up for me. I feel like the main problem is that any card that's good against Burn is only good against Burn. So you basically have to decide which part of the meta you want to severely gimp yourself against.

[ironclad8690]

I have been having really good results lately with non-punishing jund.

I switched back after losing quite a few matches to UR pyromancer, and I have to say that being lower to the ground seems really good right now.

I have dropped games to Stoneblade and Miracles since making the switch, but pretty much everything else seems better.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Maelstrom Pulse

1 Sylvan Library

4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach

4 Liliana of the Veil

1 Taiga
2 Bayou
3 Badlands
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills

SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge

Very Similar to Jellydonut's list if I am not mistaken.

[iamajellydonut]

Very Similar to Jellydonut's list if I am not mistaken.

I mean, once you cut Punishing Fire, there's a few pretty straight forward options. I picked another Sylvan Library and a Golgari Charm mainboard over the Rude Ooze and one of the Hymn to Tourachs, but otherwise it's pretty damn close to what I'm running.

One thing I have to ask is about the "dropped" games to Stoneblade and Miracles. Punishing Fire is obviously great against Stoneblade, but I have to ask, did you for a fact drop the games because you chose not to have Punishing Fire or did you drop the games and happen to not be running Punishing Fire?

[sdematt]

I mean, once you cut Punishing Fire, there's a few pretty straight forward options. I picked another Sylvan Library and a Golgari Charm mainboard over the Rude Ooze and one of the Hymn to Tourachs, but otherwise it's pretty damn close to what I'm running.

One thing I have to ask is about the "dropped" games to Stoneblade and Miracles. Punishing Fire is obviously great against Stoneblade, but I have to ask, did you for a fact drop the games because you chose not to have Punishing Fire or did you drop the games and happen to not be running Punishing Fire?

Get those Hymns out of there. Card's not what is used to be. You fill their yard with cards for Cruise!


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Thoughtseize
3 Punishing Fire
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Koth of the Hammer

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
3 Badlands
3 Wasteland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Swamp


SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb

Creature quite is maxed out on the good stuff. You could argue about squeezing an Ooze in there, but that's up to you. My old 3 Thoughtseize/3 Hymn standby is going to be switched to 4 Thoughtseize and 2 Inquisition. Inquisition doesn't grab Cruise nor Jace, but sometimes you just need to hit those TNN's, SFM's, and such. I'm running triple Fires, Decay, and Bolt split, which I've liked. Sometimes you want the 4th decay, and sometimes you want more Bolts. I've loaded up Sylvans since you need to keep up with the Cruise card advantage. REB replaced Diabolic Edict because Edict doesn't hit Cruise, and a surprise maindeck REB will likely do some work. I have yet to play extensively with it, but UR has been trying it in some cases and has had success. It also kills Delver, Jace, TNN on the stack, CB on the stack, etc. Koth is another addition over Liliana since there's much fewer TNN's than there were 8 months ago, it's a house against Control since they have no way to remove it, and it's a threat that's easy to cast under Blood Moon, which will see more popularity against 3-colour Delver cruise decks.

-Matt

[ironclad8690]

One thing I have to ask is about the "dropped" games to Stoneblade and Miracles. Punishing Fire is obviously great against Stoneblade, but I have to ask, did you for a fact drop the games because you chose not to have Punishing Fire or did you drop the games and happen to not be running Punishing Fire?

I have been dying to Jace way more than I am used to. With Punishing, I almost never lost to Jace ultimate, but since I have switched to non Punishing, I have lost several times. I do pack pyroblast in my board, but I feel like they have all been fatesealed away with all of my bloodbraids.

The nice thing is that against the Jace decks Choke can preemptively stop them for long enough to completely overwhelm them.

If you guys have any tips about the Jace matchups, I am all ears. Back in my Zoo days it was get lucky with burn timing, pyroblast, or bust.

[FoolofaTook]

Can somebody explain where the consistency in Jund comes from at this point?

There are no cantrips to fix the opening hand. The first real card advantage/selection comes on line turn 3 with Dark Confidant and Sylvan Library. The best early game bomb, Hymn to Tourach, has been weakened by the inclusion of blue delve cards. The mid game engine with Grove of the Burnwillows and Punishing Fire is now DoA in front of UR Delver. It just seems like whatever this list was at it's highpoint is no longer viable in a long tournament.

Is there a place to go with this list that will increase the consistency or has it just reached it's Rock-like endgame?

[afedelejr]

I'm not sure how many of you play Modern Jund but I wanted to tell my sad story here. I played in a local 4 round tournament this Monday and had my UWR opponent at 1 life while I was at 3. He was hellbent and I had lethal on the board. He drew his card and it was Dig through Time. I lost.

In Game 2 he was at 2 life and I had a 6/6 ooze on the board. He was hellbent and he drew... wait for it... Dig through Time which allowed him to find a Path for my ooze and we ended up going to time which made me lose because I lost G1 :(

Now that I got that out of my system, I like the question that the previous poster had written. I have some legitimate concerns with Jund going forward in both Modern and Legacy. I agree that Punishing Fire may be too slow now for the URx decks. Also, I am curious on your thoughts on how this impacts Goyf with so much Delve being playable now. I fear that with them delving, or us being proactive against their graveyard, Goyf may not be as reliable as he once was to be so big.

What are your thoughts on the impact of Dig and Treasure?

[sdematt]

I'm not sure how many of you play Modern Jund but I wanted to tell my sad story here. I played in a local 4 round tournament this Monday and had my UWR opponent at 1 life while I was at 3. He was hellbent and I had lethal on the board. He drew his card and it was Dig through Time. I lost.

In Game 2 he was at 2 life and I had a 6/6 ooze on the board. He was hellbent and he drew... wait for it... Dig through Time which allowed him to find a Path for my ooze and we ended up going to time which made me lose because I lost G1 :(

Now that I got that out of my system, I like the question that the previous poster had written. I have some legitimate concerns with Jund going forward in both Modern and Legacy. I agree that Punishing Fire may be too slow now for the URx decks. Also, I am curious on your thoughts on how this impacts Goyf with so much Delve being playable now. I fear that with them delving, or us being proactive against their graveyard, Goyf may not be as reliable as he once was to be so big.

What are your thoughts on the impact of Dig and Treasure?

I know we addressed it on the podcast episode that should be out later today. Edit: It's out. http://www.eternalcentral.com/everyday-eternal-podcast-episode-30-delving-into-previous-misgivings/

Even though they're drawing more cards, the cards we're playing are consistent and powerful. Ancestral Recalling is definitely fantastic, and so is Digging Through Time, but Punishing Fire is still a good card nonetheless. Counterspells are not super effective against uncounterable spells or spells that just keep coming back. Sure, they can Delve and shrink Goyf, but that's just something we're going to have to deal with.

We have Chains and REB to deal with Cruise. Is it as good as running Cruise itself? No, but I think Jund does have the tools to still compete. You're still a dog to burn, so UR isn't likely to be favourable, but against, say, Patriot Delver or Esperblade, we should still be okay. Once my midterm is over, I'll start grinding the testing.

-Matt

[afedelejr]

What podcast?

[sdematt]

Everyday Eternal.

I edited my previous post.

-Matt

[tescrin]

I tried a Goyf Eidolon build a few weeks ago to a miserable finish (2-2.. but one was a terrible player and the other was a bye); but I fought Miracles and Nic Fit, so maybe my saltiness is not the decks fault.

I ran a list that looked something like:

4 DRS
4 Confidant
3 Lavamancer
3 Eidolon
4 Goyf

4 Bolt
4 Chain
4 Decay
3 Lily
5-7 Discard (don't remember)
2 Sylvan Library


The idea was that I could have too much removal for delver and a lot of pressure on combo via burn + goyf. Again, it didn't get sufficient testing, but I think Jund's way forward is probably with Eidolon and cheap burn. Lavamancer is unnecessary I think and I could easily see some kind of anti-miracles tech, like Xenagos, Garruk, or maybe still BBE.

I was trying Eidolon since it's good against a lot of decks, but really shores up Storm and other combo by simply pushing the clock. I didn't run wastes because I was running PoP out of the side to hose fair decks that could go over the top; but I didn't run into any; though I almost nutted nic-fit with PoP (he was a land short of me stealing the game.)

Anyway, after my terrible finish I went back to Junk and crushed the next tournament so I won't be back on this train for a little bit, but those are my thoughts. Eidolon, lots of Burn to keep the curve low and Mom/Delver decks honest. Goyf as you'd expect. Maybe swapping discard + lavaman for a bunch of action would do the trick? Library was a beast. One of my Nic Fit games was a mull to 4 for lands (REALLY?!) and Library allowed me to *almost* get in the game. Grave Titan ended that though. What a dumb bunch of dumb.

[ironclad8690]

Can somebody explain where the consistency in Jund comes from at this point?

There are no cantrips to fix the opening hand. The first real card advantage/selection comes on line turn 3 with Dark Confidant and Sylvan Library. The best early game bomb, Hymn to Tourach, has been weakened by the inclusion of blue delve cards. The mid game engine with Grove of the Burnwillows and Punishing Fire is now DoA in front of UR Delver. It just seems like whatever this list was at it's highpoint is no longer viable in a long tournament.

Is there a place to go with this list that will increase the consistency or has it just reached it's Rock-like endgame?

I have upped my consistency by removing grove/punishing and adding more bolts, wasteland #4, & more basics. You trade grinding power for speed & consistency. It may not have results yet, but I am convinced this is the way to go in a treasure cruise world.

[FoolofaTook]

I have upped my consistency by removing grove/punishing and adding more bolts, wasteland #4, & more basics. You trade grinding power for speed & consistency. It may not have results yet, but I am convinced this is the way to go in a treasure cruise world.

Are you very consistent in fixing mediocre draw lines?

What makes cards 8 through 15 winners for you? It just seems as though the consistency level required for top tier finishes has gone through the roof and I'm not sure what a list like Jund can do to keep up with that. Play 4 Sylvan Library to guarantee getting one in play a lot of the time? Find a way to play Sensei's Divining Tops to fix draw lines alongside the fetches?

Ponder, Brainstorm, Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time. What does Jund have that will let it keep up with the draw lines that those 4 spells create?

[hovercraft]

Are you very consistent in fixing mediocre draw lines?

What makes cards 8 through 15 winners for you? It just seems as though the consistency level required for top tier finishes has gone through the roof and I'm not sure what a list like Jund can do to keep up with that. Play 4 Sylvan Library to guarantee getting one in play a lot of the time? Find a way to play Sensei's Divining Tops to fix draw lines alongside the fetches?

Ponder, Brainstorm, Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time. What does Jund have that will let it keep up with the draw lines that those 4 spells create?

I play 1 Mirri's Guile in my (non-punishing) Jund since it gets online faster than Sylvan Library (I play 1 Sylvan Library as well). If you are desperate you could splash a blue mana or 2 and Cruise with that and DRS mana. We could also play something like Skeletal Scrying as a black TC, but it's a bad cascade.

I still don't think Hymn deserves to be cut, as it can still be backbreaking to a lot of decks. Running 2 Scooze main deck can help eat away at their graveyard so they can't delve very well. If you have Chains, they are a great answer to TC, etc. Plus most of us still play Pyro/RE blasts in the board which counter TC.

Could Read The Bones ever be good enough for legacy? Or is 3 mana just too much

[ironclad8690]

Ponder, Brainstorm, Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time. What does Jund have that will let it keep up with the draw lines that those 4 spells create?

I do not think we need to "keep up" per se. We need to play to our strengths and possibly change a couple of cards:

RUG Delver: If these guys start playing Treasure Cruise, it means that they will be playing less goyfs (even if only 1 less), cut Nimble Mongeese, and add Young Pyromancer. Liliana is less enticing here, as young pyro does good work at invalidating her. The weakness of RUG delver previously was that they didn't have good ways of beating big creatures once they have resolved, and a low threat count. Young pyro makes their big creature weakness a little better now that they can chump for days, but the creature base becomes less resilient to pinpoint removal and, also slower. It may be necessary to run maindeck sweepers to be able to clear the way of young pyro & his elemental friends. If you run a consistent mana base with enough basics to cast all of the spells in your deck, their mana denial strategy becomes weaker. I have been testing online and fetching basics on turns 1-4 makes their wastelands look stupid, especially when you start casting your Bloodbraids. Postboard submerge is still a beating, but we get more sweepers, Jitte (which is much more back breaking against new Crusie delver lists as it is a gajillion for 1 if it resolves and you connect with it), and also Pyroblast. I think this matchup is still in our favor.

BUG Delver: This matchup is tougher for sure, but we are the better midrange deck. We run more answers than they have threats, and they are cutting Liliana for Cruise. This means to me that they will have more ways of finding Abrupt Decay, but less ways to deal with creatures in general preboard. Can they let a Deathrite Live? Bob? Goyf? We just need to make sure that we overload their removal and are able to answer an early Delver. I think we definitely want to be running 4 Abrupt Decay because the only way that tempo stops our removal is by countering or making us discard, and I think in the early turns they want to commit to the Board rather than making us discard cards.

UWR Delver: If we do cut lilianas in the face of young pyromancer, we certainly want to have something that answers True-Name in her stead. The issue with running early sweepers is that it can be super awkward with our own bobs and deathrites on the board. I think as long as we keep our Young Pyro answers versatile, True-Name will not be a problem. We have removal for Delver rush, discard and ancient grudge for equipments, and efficient creatures that are either mini-planeswalking (DRS), card advantage (Bob), just really big (Tarmogoyf), or a 2 for 1 (Bbe). We may not always draw the right piece at the right time, and that can certainly hurt, but by not overexposing ourselves to wasteland we will at least be able to cast our spells on time and draw the game out until our card advantage engines come online.

UR Delver: Just try to kill everything they play as soon as possible and accept any trade with young Pyro or Swiftspear. Postboard we gets more sweepers, Jitte, and Pyroblast. Fetch basics because they will always bring in blood moon. This is a great example of why I have switched to non-punishing list: 4 basics early in the game ensures that you will be able to play the spells in your hand on curve, and blood moon doesn't necessarily blow you out. With punishing, sometimes you are off curve in the early turns and against this deck that is too back breaking to recover from. Wasteland hurts this deck more than you would think, if they fetch carelessly we can put them way behind on tempo from a single wasteland. Each land they lose is 1 less cantrip, despite being 1 more card in the yard for delving.

Esper Deathblade: I do not think this deck gives us any trouble even with Treasure Cruise and dig through time. The angles that we attack from are too many for them to overcome. Esper is scarier as they do not have as many targets for our removal which becomes more dead, but the same cards that are good vs Young Pyro are good vs Lingering souls and True-Name Nemesis. This matchup, Death and Taxes, and Painter are why I will always run some artifact hate in my board, whether it be ancient grudge, krosan grip, or seal of primordium (which pumps goyf awesomely and can't be removed by opposing deathrite/delve).

Combo: This is where Treasure Cruise and Dig will really hurt us. Depleting their hand is the best thing we can do, and postboard countering their blue spells. I think we will need to start running more permanent based hate in our sideboards/maindeck to accommodate for their increased consistency. Cards like Thorn of Amythist, Pithing/Revoker, Choke, Chains of Mephistopheles, Grafdigger's Cage, and so forth become better. Most combo does not prepare for hateful permanents when facing jund, just blanking our discard with the likes of Leyline of Sanctity.

I hope this gives perspective on how we can adjust to a Treasure Cruise and Dig through time metagame.


I play 1 Mirri's Guile in my (non-punishing) Jund since it gets online faster than Sylvan Library (I play 1 Sylvan Library as well). If you are desperate you could splash a blue mana or 2 and Cruise with that and DRS mana. We could also play something like Skeletal Scrying as a black TC, but it's a bad cascade.

I still don't think Hymn deserves to be cut, as it can still be backbreaking to a lot of decks. Running 2 Scooze main deck can help eat away at their graveyard so they can't delve very well. If you have Chains, they are a great answer to TC, etc. Plus most of us still play Pyro/RE blasts in the board which counter TC.

Could Read The Bones ever be good enough for legacy? Or is 3 mana just too much

I hate stifling creativity in Legacy, but I think read the bones is not only too slow but also too ineffectual. I have to say props on mirri's guile, because I have played with that card in the past and t1 guile into t2 Bob is awesome as you can stack the triggers.

I still stand by Sylvan Library as my library manipulation of choice because against Miracles and Stoneblade the chance to draw two extra cards at the cost of 8 life is just too good to pass up. Also we can float cards on top in case of sweepers and set up our cascades to be relevant, and I think cascading into relevant cards is a necessity in the new meta. I like running two of this card right now, but it is definitely something that changes count in my mainboard often.

Edit: Sorry to post a novel. I just really think that popular players/writers are overhyping TC effects on the metagame and saying things like "Shardless BUG is dead" etc etc. They have said it about numerous archetypes in the past, but in Legacy I believe that mastering an archetype is more important than trying to "be current".

[afedelejr]

Ironclad - What is your decklist looking like with these sweepers now?

[HSCK]

Hello Jund players, I just finished my metagame analysis for September and Jund was quite the performer, coming in at with the 4th most top 8 placings for the month. Not sure what the future holds now that blue decks have two pretty strong cards, but it seems like Jund has found a good place in the meta again.

[ironclad8690]

Ironclad - What is your decklist looking like with these sweepers now?

I am still trying to find the right balance, but for the time being I have 1 maindeck toxic deluge and 1 maindeck golgari charm. It is possible that this is just wrong. From the list I posted above, I have cut scavenging ooze and diabolic edict. In my testing so far (6 games) I have lost to Reanimator and Bant but beaten Oops all Spells somehow. Hoping to test more against delver and blade variants.


Hello Jund players, I just finished my metagame analysis for September and Jund was quite the performer, coming in at with the 4th most top 8 placings for the month. Not sure what the future holds now that blue decks have two pretty strong cards, but it seems like Jund has found a good place in the meta again.

Good news! We will see what happens with the new metagame.

[Nuke is Good]

The store's legacy league is starting up a new season so the burn players are gonna come out in full force again, so I'm putting Jund on the sidelines. Towards the end the Top 8 players show up and that's where I think Jund is gonna be the pinch hitter. The Top 8 players play:

Death and Taxes
RUG Delver
BUG Delver
Esper Deathblade
TES
Elves
Esper Stoneblade
Shardless BUG

A friend of mine and me are trying to disrupt the balance of power in the shop since it's just the same guys over and over again winning. My bud is taking UR Delver and then for the early run I'm gonna run U/B Reanimator and Painter only to switch to Jund if I can get to the overall Top 8. Other players tried the same thing I did but the mistake they made was Jund was their only deck so the burn players literally decimate them. I'm still not sure if it's worth modifying the deck against burn players.

I've used this list for a SCG Open type meta so I might have to find tune to deal with this meta. I really hate Death and Taxes so I might add in Massacre and/or Engineered Plagues to deal with it.

Main Deck (60)
Creatures (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf
Spells (22)
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
2 Sylvan Library
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Punishing Fire
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (23)
1 Forest
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
3 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
Sideboard (15)
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Life from the Loam
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pernicious Deed


In terms of library consistency when I first started out I actually used SDT but that ended up being a huge Mana sink. Mirri's guile to me was a bit of a do nothing card at least the top can draw me a card. Library was the best of both, it helped improve draws but didn't do anything on the turn it came down beside make miracles players groan if they didn't have a counterspell.

[sdematt]

Cut the Hymns. I'm glad people are finally getting on board the Library train.

-Matt

[ironclad8690]

Cut the Hymns. I'm glad people are finally getting on board the Library train.

-Matt

I feel like we would need more permanent based combo hate to do this. It could be right though.

I will test inquisitions as well. Oh boy! Even less of my deck will need to be switched around for modern each week!

[iamajellydonut]

Cut the Hymns.

I continue to not understand this mentality. Hymn to Tourach hasn't been stellar for a while, which is why I am only running two, but it has continued to do its job over the years and it did so well up until Khans came around and made everyone go "oh no!". Why is that? "Treasure Cruise" isn't enough. If you want to say that the flavor-of-the-month rise in UR Delver makes Hymn to Tourach a not as favorable option at the moment, sure. I might even be interested to see what alternatives people could come up with for those slots. But why condemn Hymn to Tourach and then pretend like Inquisition of Kozilek has comparatively redeemable qualities? If you're going to hedge against the meta, the truth is that both suck with Inquisition of Kozilek sucking infinitely more. Against Miracles and UR Delver, which are the respective "best deck" and "flavor of the month", you don't want Hymn to Tourach. Granted. So why put in Inquisition? Why not replace Hymn with things that are relevant both globally and in those specific match-ups like a final Abrupt Decay instead of with a card that's somehow manages to be more useless?

Inquisition of Kozilek is a slippery slope into a deck that is at a glance satisfying but in practice is basically involves a lot of masturbation and self-loathing. Chaining Thoughtseize effects does nothing but run you into a worthless stalemate. Hymn to Tourach is ol' reliable. It's a supplemental break in monotony and swings the game in your favor. It steals two cards at random and doesn't give a fuck and is absolutely key against bad match-ups like combo and Burn and riff-raff like 12Post. Do I board it out? When necessary. And I'm learning more and more when that is. But I know it's still a whole hell of a lot better than a nerfed Thoughtseize whose, with an inability to hit crucial bombs, only consistent function is being able to snipe their spot removal. That is not justification.

[ironclad8690]

After a bit more testing today, I have to say that it is feeling more and more like punishing fire is still a necessity. I have creamed tempo with the non punishing, but other decks that are usually byes for me have become troublesome. I have lost to Bant, multiple Shardless BUG, multiple Death/Stoneblade, and Miracles more than usual. I haven't faced Maverick or Death and Taxes, but I have to imagine without punishing fire the scales tip to their side.

If anyone has any ideas on how to improve the tempo matchups while still running P/Grove combo I am all ears.

[tescrin]

Why not ask how to improve non-tempo MUs without PFire? Because that's easy:
-Play Deluge
-Play Loam
-Play Library

PFire is a crutch that, while powerful, I think is necessary to go to make the deck better in the long run.


@Jelly
Yes, TC is the reason, and it's not UR delver; it's all delver, some combo, and probably more.

Imagine you're on the draw.
-They fetch, play a dude, go
-You play DRS, something, go
-They play a land or fetch, kill drs, go
-You Hymn them
-They TC out of it and play a land and a threat


So they've had a threat on the board for two turns while you're trying to develop or disrupt them, and now they're two threats ahead and a card ahead because you hymned and missed. Targeted discard can now have a higher CA value (by negating theirs) than hymn, while having less tempo loss.

This was all assuming:
-They didn't waste you and TC anyways
-The T1 threat they had wasn't DRS
-That you got a DRS on the draw
-They didn't daze or force your hymn

I didn't give you a terribly unfavorable start; just the 50% chance they went first and killed your DRS. Everything else is normal. Had you TS'd T2 you would've nabbed TC and been at card parity with mana for a Bolt or something. Instead you hymned, they TC'd, so you lost tempo AND card advantage, simply because their card is better than yours.

Hymn is good, but their card is essentially "mind twist good."

[sdematt]

I continue to not understand this mentality. Hymn to Tourach hasn't been stellar for a while, which is why I am only running two, but it has continued to do its job over the years and it did so well up until Khans came around and made everyone go "oh no!". Why is that? "Treasure Cruise" isn't enough. If you want to say that the flavor-of-the-month rise in UR Delver makes Hymn to Tourach a not as favorable option at the moment, sure. I might even be interested to see what alternatives people could come up with for those slots. But why condemn Hymn to Tourach and then pretend like Inquisition of Kozilek has comparatively redeemable qualities? If you're going to hedge against the meta, the truth is that both suck with Inquisition of Kozilek sucking infinitely more. Against Miracles and UR Delver, which are the respective "best deck" and "flavor of the month", you don't want Hymn to Tourach. Granted. So why put in Inquisition? Why not replace Hymn with things that are relevant both globally and in those specific match-ups like a final Abrupt Decay instead of with a card that's somehow manages to be more useless?

It's not like it's just UR Delver running Treasure Cruise, though. It's BUG Delver, UWr Delver, Canadian is trying it, the blade midrange decks can still run it, etc. It's freaking everywhere. I think it'll likely hedge back over time as more people are fighting it, similar to TNN, but the point still stands. As well, Dig makes Omni an exceptionally good deck. I predict in coming months Omni will be a deck to beat again. It has tools to fight all the hatebears and it has good game against counters. Because of this, you want to grab SnT as much as you can. That deck hinges on Dream Halls and Show and Tell, and Hymn to Tourach affecting card density is not where you want to be, but instead, targeted selection in your discard.

I think against Density based combo decks, like Storm, Hymn it just fine.


Inquisition of Kozilek is a slippery slope into a deck that is at a glance satisfying but in practice is basically involves a lot of masturbation and self-loathing. Chaining Thoughtseize effects does nothing but run you into a worthless stalemate. Hymn to Tourach is ol' reliable. It's a supplemental break in monotony and swings the game in your favor. It steals two cards at random and doesn't give a fuck and is absolutely key against bad match-ups like combo and Burn and riff-raff like 12Post. Do I board it out? When necessary. And I'm learning more and more when that is. But I know it's still a whole hell of a lot better than a nerfed Thoughtseize whose, with an inability to hit crucial bombs, only consistent function is being able to snipe their spot removal. That is not justification.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the underlined statement. IoK isn't ideal, I agree. I doesn't even grab Cruise, Jace, FoW, etc. But, is Duress better, or Hymn? Duress might be slightly better in that you can grab those bomby non-creatures, since realistically, maybe you don't care about creatures in this format. Or, maybe Cabal Therapy is the way to go.

I just feel like if your meta had a bunch of stuff where Hymn is pretty meh, then why play it? That's all I'm trying to say.

-Matt

[Nuke is Good]

I think what sdematt meant was in my list I had hymns in an overly fair meta (for the top 8). TES and maybe Miracles would benefit from the hymns but I could probably pack more edicts if I did trim them.

[iamajellydonut]

I didn't give you a terribly unfavorable start

No, short of getting Wasted out, you gave me literally the worst start. Dead guy and them with an active Deathrite is a pretty piss-poor place to be. You could replace Treasure Cruise with anything from Abbey Gargoyle to Zzzyxas's Abyss in that scenario and still be about as equally fucked.

Anyway, the mere existence of Treasure Cruise doesn't stop Hymn to Tourach from being a two-for-one. It's not like they wouldn't cast the Treasure Cruise if Hymn to Tourach didn't land. Hymn to Tourach is a two-for-one. That is the beginning and the end of it and the simple existence of Treasure Cruise (which is < 3x in the decks that choose to run it except for UR Delver) doesn't invalidate that nor any of the other X-for-ones in the deck. Hymn to Tourach is often cut for UR Delver and Miracles and isn't exactly an all-star against "fair decks", but that has always been true and has very little to do with Treasure Cruise. If you choose to cut it, cut it because of the decks that are or aren't being run.

[iamajellydonut]

IoK isn't ideal, I agree. I doesn't even grab Cruise, Jace, FoW, etc. But, is Duress better, or Hymn? Duress might be slightly better in that you can grab those bomby non-creatures, since realistically, maybe you don't care about creatures in this format. Or, maybe Cabal Therapy is the way to go.

None of them are the way to go. Thoughtseize is an amazing card and an automatic four-of. So is Dark Confidant. But is Confidant so good that you need to try and force Blood Scrivener as Confidant 5-8? Just because something is comparable doesn't mean it's worth inclusion. Thoughtseize is a one-of-a-kind animal. If Hymn's not good enough, then it's not good enough. But it's not worth it to try and force some lame imitation.


Edit: In other news, what does everyone think about a fourth Bloodbraid Elf? I'm still playing around with that final slot.

[tescrin]

No, short of getting Wasted out, you gave me literally the worst start. Dead guy and them with an active Deathrite is a pretty piss-poor place to be.


First, I also didn't give them an active deathrite, I just said Dude (could be Mom, Grim, Delver, DRS, any T1 guy; I was just filling in their turn without a cantrip to show that they could quickly and easily get a Cruise active without having double-triple cantrips.)

Second, You must live in christmas land. Having your T1 DRS killed while sick (especially on the draw) is the most common thing to happen against literally any fair deck. That is a *normal* start. Nobody good lets you keep a DRS unless they're about to hose you somehow. You then hymned (I gave you the benefit of having double-black); your hymn powered their cruise.


You could replace Treasure Cruise with anything from Abbey Gargoyle to Zzzyxas's Abyss in that scenario and still be about as equally fucked.
Your post says:
"My DRS gets killed? Well I mean, literally anything they play if they manage to kill my T1 DRS wins the game right there!"



You can't seriously believe the rubbish you spout. I gave you an accurate on-the-draw description of an average game where you used hymn (as it's typically better T2 than T3 anyway), with no wastes, no manascrew, no opponent ramp, no counterspells, the opponent playing only 1 fetch, 1 cantrip, 1 dude. If you think that's christmas land for the opponent then you're a garbage and need to go play modern.



None of them are the way to go. Thoughtseize is an amazing card and an automatic four-of. So is Dark Confidant. But is Confidant so good that you need to try and force Blood Scrivener as Confidant 5-8? Just because something is comparable doesn't mean it's worth inclusion. Thoughtseize is a one-of-a-kind animal.

IoK is stellar. Matt AND I (and many other Junk players) use it to subsidize the 4th Ts and often act as TS 4-6. TS is notoriously bad if you hit three of them and even two can be pretty painful. It's often just fine to start with a TS and follow with an IoK (or vice versa.) IoK does miss some things in Miracles, Omni-tell, Sneak-Show, and maybe a couple other decks; but in general it hits everything without a drawback and is good enough T1/T2 against combo that it's better than Hymn IMO. Hymn was only good because it pissed on fair decks. It can no longer reliably do that. IoK is good because it's not only reliable (unlike hymn) but it neuters combo before their critical turn. Hymn means you have to survive to cast it; which can be a bigger deal than it sounds; while slowing your tempo (since you could be landing a threat next to your IoK, but not often next to your hymn.)

[iamajellydonut]

IoK is good because it's not only reliable (unlike hymn) but it neuters combo before their critical turn. Hymn means you have to survive to cast it; which can be a bigger deal than it sounds; while slowing your tempo (since you could be landing a threat next to your IoK, but not often next to your hymn.)

Junk is not Jund. You get hatebears. We don't. If you cast Inquisition of Kozilek against Storm as Junk, you buy time to land a Gaddock Teeg or a Thalia or a Revoker (or Meddling Mage in Matt's case). If you cast Inquisition of Kozilek against Storm as Jund, you had better hope to God it's post-board and you have a Null Rod or some shit.

[sdematt]

Junk is not Jund. You get hatebears. We don't. If you cast Inquisition of Kozilek against Storm as Junk, you buy time to land a Gaddock Teeg or a Thalia or a Revoker (or Meddling Mage in Matt's case). If you cast Inquisition of Kozilek against Storm as Jund, you had better hope to God it's post-board and you have a Null Rod or some shit.

I'm not saying either of us are wrong, but I'm going to do a few hours of testing today with Jund to see what that slot should be, or at least could be. Your assessment isn't wrong - Jund doesn't have hatebears to back up discard, so perhaps you might NEED the discard to be a 2-for-1. The real question is: should Hymn be in the main, or switched to the anti-combo discard in the board? Testing will tell. I'll test against specific combo (Omni/SnT), density combo (ANT/TES), midrange (no TC), and Delver (TC).

-Matt

[ironclad8690]

I am still on the hymn bandwagon. It may have gotten a little worse with the printings of these new cards, but I usually sided out hymns against the decks that play more than 1 of these delve cards anyway.

I am not saying anyone is wrong either, but i feel as though hymn works better with the clock that we present. Of course it depends on what decks you face, but nothing quite does what hymn does. I have tested Inquisition in the past and felt as though it was lackluster and in many cases i just wanted it to be hymn instead.

Funny enough, there was a list that played 4 Hymns, 2 Thoughtseize, and 1 Inquisition at an SCG I went to a while back. Very curious numbers, but the player was Vidianta Wijaya, and he is pretty dang good so I trusted his judgement.

Also, I do like 4 bloodbraids right now. She gets better postboard because of a more focused plan and more relevant cards, and i almost never want to side her out (if need be I just trim 1 or 2 like against fast combo).

[iamajellydonut]

Also, I do like 4 bloodbraids right now.

Grah! I hate this final slot. I'm trying to brew in time for Worcester and freaking out. I wish I could just leave it at fifty nine cards and have all my problems solved. There's just no "final card" that I'm happy with.

Anyway, I played out a few games and talked about it a lot with a friend, and I already think the fourth Bloodbraid isn't worth the slot. Reason being that, as sexy as she is, it's 4cc and random. I'd rather have something hard and dependable. So far the choices that I've considered in no particular order...

White splash
Crippling Fatigue
Diabolic Edict
Garruk Relentless
Bloodbraid Elf
Assault/Battery (you can cast the elephant off bloodbraid)
Horizon Canopy

[FoolofaTook]

@iamajellydonut

Go with a singleton Sensei's Divining Top. It'll never kill you and when you get it up with Dark Confidant it is amazing. When you draw into it and have it in mid-game with Bloodbraid Elf in hand it can be amazing, particularly with fetches.

[iamajellydonut]

Isn't that basically just suggesting I put in a third Sylvan Library?

[FoolofaTook]

Isn't that basically just suggesting I put in a third Sylvan Library?

No, the third Sylvan Library is redundant. The Sensei's Divining Top gives you capabilities that the Sylvan Library does not, particularly with fetches and instants. Being able to float a bolt or decay on top of your library can get you through a lot. Also you can draw the top and play it and spin it and draw with it for 2 mana during your main phase. It's not quite a Ponder but it can be close in mid-game.

[Dice_Box]

Give us a look at your list right now, in a vacuum I can't offer any advice.

[iamajellydonut]

Give us a look at your list right now, in a vacuum I can't offer any advice.

23 Land
1*Forest
2*Swamp
3*Badlands
3*Bayou
2*Bloodstained Mire
3*Marsh Flats
4*Verdant Catacombs
4*Wasteland
1*Wooded Foothills

15 Creatures
4*Dark Confidant
1*Tombstalker
3*Tarmogoyf
3*Bloodbraid Elf
4*Deathrite Shaman


22 Other Spells
2*Hymn to Tourach
4*Liliana of the Veil
4*Thoughtseize
4*Lightning Bolt
2*Sylvan Library
3*Abrupt Decay
1*Golgari Charm
1*Maelstrom Pulse
1*TBD

Sideboard
1*Mindbreak Trap (might end up becoming Duress if only because of Burn)
1*Chains of Mephistopheles
1*Duress
2*Surgical Extraction
1*Toxic Deluge
1*Ancient Grudge
1*Pyroblast
1*Red Elemental Blast
1*Pernicious Deed
1*Grafdigger's Cage
1*Nihil Spellbomb
1*Null Rod
1*Pithing Needle
1*Winter Orb/Blood Moon (fuck Miracles or fuck BUG and 43Lands)


From memory. I think it's all there.

[FoolofaTook]

4th Abrupt Decay, 3rd Hymn to Tourach, those are the obvious choices.

Pernicious Deed, Darkblast (Elves, D&T, UR Delver, Goyf wars), 2nd Golgari Charm, making the removal suite really hard to manage for the tribal or threat-lite opponent.

Sensei's Divining Top, Abundance, the meta is much more consistent now than it has been with all the blue, Elves, D&T and company, you need more consistency. Sylvan Library + Abundance buries people in the mid-game and Golgari Charm is about the only main list way to ditch Abundance after it lands these days. SDT is a top 5 card in the meta and it provides synergy with Dark Confidant and Bloodbraid Elf.

The other thing is that you're only playing 3 Goyfs. I understand why you're doing that but Goyf is still the second best card in your list after DRS and just putting #4 back in is probably better than any of the above.

[ironclad8690]

Wow, Abundance is a weird but awesome card. Also more enchantments to pump goyf in case they eat a counterspell. I notcied Finchler had a seal of primordium in his sideboard in the last scg and thought that was cool.

[afedelejr]

How does abundance work with library?
I'm thinking that you could possibly put three permanents into play on each draw step if you state then correctly?

[ironclad8690]

You put them into play, then pay 4 life for the 2nd and 3rd if you want to keep them, otherwise, you put them back on top I think?

[Mhenlo]

Wow, Abundance is a weird but awesome card. Also more enchantments to pump goyf in case they eat a counterspell. I notcied Finchler had a seal of primordium in his sideboard in the last scg and thought that was cool.

Finchler is a good friend of mine, the Seal was an idea from another friend (Gilderbarin216 or Jake who got 2nd at the SCG with reanimator) for Miracles to kill Blood Moon and to be able to kill a CB, while being able to play it before they play their threat.

[FoolofaTook]

How does abundance work with library?
I'm thinking that you could possibly put three permanents into play on each draw step if you state then correctly?

Abundance allows you to replace any card draw by choosing land or non-land and revealing cards from the top of your library until you get a card of the type you chose, you put that card in your hand.

Sylvan Library allows you to draw two extra cards each draw phase after your regular draw has resolved. You must put two of the cards drawn this turn back on top of your library in any order or pay 4 life per card not returned in this manner.

The combo allows you to put three cards in your hand each turn after which you don't have to return any to the top of your library nor pay any life because you did not draw any cards this turn.

When Abundance is in play alone you get to just draw spells or just draw lands depending on what you need. It's a filter to get rid of mana flood basically.

The hangup is that it costs 2:g::g: to cast and you do not normally gain any benefit from it until your next draw phase. That's a huge tempo loss in a tight game.

[iamajellydonut]

How does abundance work with library?
I'm thinking that you could possibly put three permanents into play on each draw step if you state then correctly?

If you choose to draw with Sylvan Library and replace all of the draws with Abundance, you will have "drawn" zero cards and will thus have to put back nothing and pay no life. Same with Pursuit of Knowledge and the Words cycle and dredge. However, the problem with this is too many filter too few indians. If you can assemble Sylvan Library-tron, you pretty much win the game. Unfortunately, the odds of achieving it are low, and without Sylvan Library, Abundance basically amounts to a really expensive Sylvan Library that can't manipulate the top and can't draw cards.

[Dice_Box]

I think I would add Jund charm to that slot in the current environment.

[hovercraft]

23 Land
1*Forest
2*Swamp
3*Badlands
3*Bayou
2*Bloodstained Mire
3*Marsh Flats
4*Verdant Catacombs
4*Wasteland
1*Wooded Foothills

15 Creatures
4*Dark Confidant
1*Tombstalker
3*Tarmogoyf
3*Bloodbraid Elf
4*Deathrite Shaman


22 Other Spells
2*Hymn to Tourach
4*Liliana of the Veil
4*Thoughtseize
4*Lightning Bolt
2*Sylvan Library
3*Abrupt Decay
1*Golgari Charm
1*Maelstrom Pulse
1*TBD

Sideboard
1*Mindbreak Trap (might end up becoming Duress if only because of Burn)
1*Chains of Mephistopheles
1*Duress
2*Surgical Extraction
1*Toxic Deluge
1*Ancient Grudge
1*Pyroblast
1*Red Elemental Blast
1*Pernicious Deed
1*Grafdigger's Cage
1*Nihil Spellbomb
1*Null Rod
1*Pithing Needle
1*Winter Orb/Blood Moon (fuck Miracles or fuck BUG and 43Lands)


From memory. I think it's all there.

I really don't think Tombstalker in the same deck as Dark Confidant is a good idea. I love TS, but this is not the deck for him in my opinion. I would go back to 4 Goyf. For your flex spot, I think a 4th Abrupt still fits in there fine

An odd card I have been interested in trying out is Unearth. It is essentially Goyf/Bob/DRS #5 once one is removed, or can be cycled away if you don't need it


I think I would add Jund charm to that slot in the current environment. Not a bad idea. I forgot one of the modes of this was GY hate. Even rakdos charm could be useful. Artifact and grave hate, then the last mode which could help against decks like Elves or any deck that empties the warrens or young pyromances

[iamajellydonut]

I really don't think Tombstalker in the same deck as Dark Confidant is a good idea.

It's not especially dangerous. You're not guaranteed to always have a Dark Confidant flipping cards, you're not guaranteed to hit Tombstalker even when Confidant is flipping cards, and Tombstalker is a one-of. Top that off with Sylvan Library potentially filtering, and probability is absolutely on your side. Not to mention that even if you do flip Tombstalker, it's not the end of the world. Far from it. You now have a fucking Tombstalker. Short of being indestructible, having hexproof, or protection, it's the most resilient creature in Legacy and one of the largest.

Anyway, I think I've settled on a final list. I'll try to post it later when my phone's not ringing.



An odd card I have been interested in trying out is Unearth. It is essentially Goyf/Bob/DRS #5 once one is removed, or can be cycled away if you don't need it

Been there. Done that. Fun card. Not necessary.

If you're going to try something like Unearth, Reanimate is just strictly better. The lifeloss is irrelevant, and if it's necessary to ever effectively cycle a Goyf/Bob/DRS, you're already losing the game. On the other hand, being able to Reanimate a Mother of Runes or a True-Name Nemesis or a Snapcaster Mage into that same Reanimate into another creature is... yeah. The downside is that there are so many matches when Reanimate is not just bad, but is utterly worthless. And it doesn't necessarily have any all-star moves to offset that. The best it gets is being able to Reanimate a Reanimator target, but even that can naturally be played around in most circumstances at no cost to the Reanimator player.

[FoolofaTook]

Unearth is good in Loam shells that have power you'll dredge by as you work the combos. It doubles as a saving cycle when they're taking your LFtL out with Surgical Extraction or activating Relic of Progenitus to sweep the GY's clean.

[zulander]

Sylvan Oracle
9/16/2007: If you choose to draw two cards, then replace one or more of those draws with some other effect, the rest of Sylvan Library's ability still happens. If you've actually drawn only one card that turn, you must choose that card and either pay 4 life or put it on top of your library. If you haven't actually drawn any cards that turn, the rest of the ability has no effect.


If you're going to do it then you need to skip all 3 draws, which is actually good if you don't need lands, hitting the top 3 non-lands is pretty redonk.

[hovercraft]

It's not especially dangerous. You're not guaranteed to always have a Dark Confidant flipping cards, you're not guaranteed to hit Tombstalker even when Confidant is flipping cards, and Tombstalker is a one-of. Top that off with Sylvan Library potentially filtering, and probability is absolutely on your side. Not to mention that even if you do flip Tombstalker, it's not the end of the world. Far from it. You now have a fucking Tombstalker. Short of being indestructible, having hexproof, or protection, it's the most resilient creature in Legacy and one of the largest.

Anyway, I think I've settled on a final list. I'll try to post it later when my phone's not ringing.




Been there. Done that. Fun card. Not necessary.

If you're going to try something like Unearth, Reanimate is just strictly better. The lifeloss is irrelevant, and if it's necessary to ever effectively cycle a Goyf/Bob/DRS, you're already losing the game. On the other hand, being able to Reanimate a Mother of Runes or a True-Name Nemesis or a Snapcaster Mage into that same Reanimate into another creature is... yeah. The downside is that there are so many matches when Reanimate is not just bad, but is utterly worthless. And it doesn't necessarily have any all-star moves to offset that. The best it gets is being able to Reanimate a Reanimator target, but even that can naturally be played around in most circumstances at no cost to the Reanimator player.

Have you considered Hooting Mandrills at all? 6 cmc vs 8 cmc, but smaller and tramples rather than flies. Still dodged bolt and decay

[Gunz24]

Jund bros (and gals?),

Everyone in this thread is losing their damn mind. Treasure Cruise has everyone in fits and understandably but some of these suggesstions are just a touch overboard. Cutting Hymn for example? We run Hymn because our combo match-up is terrible. More often than not I'm siding this card out against any delver deck which is where Treasure Cruise is the most threatening so the idea of "feeding their graveyard" is overblown. Not to mention if your concern is Treasure Cruise how does Inquisition help? The simple answer is it doesn't. Keep the Hymns and sideboard smarter.

Lose Punishing Fire? This isn't the first time or the last we'll talk about this possibility but removing our Fire package seriously undermines our longevitiy. Not to mention it may be our strongest card against delver variants where, again, Treasure Cruise is the most damaging to us.

I've given this Treasure Cruise problem a lot of thought and I have good news and bad news. Good news is we can beat it, the bad news is I'm nearly certain the way we can most efficiently do so is a $400 card on the reserve list. Whomp whomp. Chains of Mephistopheles is the answer to our Jund woes.

Think about how we are able to interact with Treasure Cruise. One way is to attack the graveyard and prevent them from delving. This may seem relavtively easy because traditionally our sideboards are full of graveyard hate but when you get to the true reason for that its because our Reanimator match-up is less than ideal. We bring in graveyard hate that wins us the game not that helps us durdle. If we take this route and main deck our hate we're affecting our deck's bottom line: Tarmogoyf. And for what in exchange? So they can't cast one spell? That doesn't win us the game in the same way eating Griselbrands with Scavenging Ooze or cracking a Spellbomb on a Dredge deck does. All this strategy does is waterdown our power in match-ups where we need to rely on forcing poor trades. The same match-ups where a 4/5 or a 5/6 Tarmogoyf is a serious issue for our opponent.

Another way is to just outright counter the Cruise. Incliment weather, sorry dude. Except we can't do this. Sure we could bring in Red Blast and Pyroblast from the board but that isn't what our deck wants to be doing. How often have you taken this approach in a match and found yourself sitting with a Red Blast in hand wishing it were something relevant? "But it can kill a Delver!" Yea, it can. So does Punishing Fire. The closest we come to this is Thoughtseizing, Hymning or Duressing away a Cruise before they can cast it and we are capable of doing that aready without drastic deck composition changes.

So this brings me to the solution. Anyone who's resolved a Chains of Mephistopheles against a blue player knows how devistating it is. I have never lost a match where a copy of Chains stayed in play. Never. With Chains, Treasure Cruise becomes "Exile your graveyard and discard 3 cards" for U. Great! Traditionally this was a sideboard card because in the match-ups it was good in it was really good and the match-ups its bad against its hot garbage. The current metagame has changed that. The amount of Treasure Cruises running around in my opinion justify main decking Chains of Mephistopheles. Best case scenario you crush your opponents card advantage and then grind them out the way only Jund can. Worst case scenario you pitch it to a Liliana activation and grow your goyf with the ever elusive enchantment card type.

My propsed list for the current metagame would be as follows:

3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Liliana of the Veil

2 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire

4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse

1 Sylvan Library
1 Chains of Mephistopheles

1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Bayou
2 Badlands

Sideboard:

1 Sylvan Library
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Golgari Charm
1 Massacre
2 Duress
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Engineered Plague

I really love the 2 Library configurations and in some match-ups we want to be in that mode but against other decks we need to turn on 2Chainz. A note about the interaction of Sylvan Library and Chains of Mephistopheles if you choose to take this route. Library is a YOU MAY ability meaning if Chains is out you will need to defer from "looking" at the other 2 cards in your draw step. Frequently Library use is played in the manner Scry 3 would be except you're technically drawing these cards. If you do this with Chains in play you will need to discard cards and then put some back or pay life. Tragic. Don't get caught screwing this up, it will end you.

Finally, if the meta shifts or your opponent decided to move to Dig Through Time over Treasure Cruise your Chains of Mephistopheles will do nothing. Dig puts the cards in hand not draw so in this way Dig gets around Chains just like Bob does for us. If you encounter this I'd advise switching to double Library mode and heavier discard, Duress would be a must.

I'll be putting some testing into this leading up to Legacy Champs in Philly and will follow up with you.

Stay strong Jund Bros. Don't panic.

[afedelejr]

I'm curious who else is coming to Philly. Would you be interested in meeting up?

[ironclad8690]

Went 2-1 in my weekly local.

Round 1 got a bye

Round 2 Beat UR Delver 2-0. My opponent could have killed me multiple times in g1, but he kept burning my planeswalkers/creatures instead of me when I was at 3 or less. Didn't feel like I deserved to win, but somehow I did.

Round 3 Lost to Bant. Game 1 I just naturally lost to mother of runes and a knight which I didn't quite get enough removal for. Game 2 started off amazingly for me, but we both went in to topdeck mode where Jund usually shines. My opponent got a treasure cruise though, and just drew into gas which was unmatched by my meager draws of lands. Ended up falling behind on board after 2 relics to shrinks my goyfs, and then a rest in peace to seal the deal. his final board was 2 stoneforges, 1 equipped with a SoFaI, a noble hierarch, and a dryad arbor. I just got legitimately ground out, and 1 of the relics was able to hit my punishing fire to turn off my engine. I never saw another, but it would have been too late after RiP anyways. This matchup usually plays out quite favorably for me, so I think I can just chalk this one up to bad draws (which the blue decks don't seem to ever have any more).

It felt bad losing to what should be a bye, but oh well. That is magic.

[Claymore]

Looking at this as an option for the GP. Would the mainboard Diabolic Edict be better off as a Golgari Charm? I feel like in a heavy Treasure Cruise meta that the Golgari Charm has more options to sweep Elementals along with True-Name. I thought about Jund Charm and I like the pyroclasm, but the other modes seem less impactful. The graveyard removal is nice but seems like a waste, and it will get filled up in time regardless.

[sdematt]

Ground games with this deck for 6 hours last night against Cruise control decks and Cruise delver. After board its a fun matchup. Preboard is even. Maindeck Reb is better than maindeck Chains, imho. Reb hits more things than charm or edict.

[afedelejr]

Matt did you use the list above?

[ironclad8690]

So I was on Reddit this morning reading the MTG Legacy threads and some silly person spoke of splashing blue for treasure cruise.

I gave it a try with this list:

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Treasure Cruise
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Swamp
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Tropical Island
SB: 2 Swan Song
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge

Clearly not optimal at all, but I beat a Grixis Delver deck. I think I need to cut Dark Confidant for another creature, possibly just Delver or Shardless Agent. What do you guys think? Could this even be considered Jund anymore?

[Dice_Box]

Please do not play TC in the same deck as Bob. If you do please hand a champagne bottle to your opponent whenever you flip one card advantage engine with your other card advantage engine and ask him to shoot you in the face with the cork.

[razvan]

Please do not play TC in the same deck as Bob. If you do please hand a champagne bottle to your opponent whenever you flip one card advantage engine with your other card advantage engine and ask him to shoot you in the face with the cork.
Shoot you in the face with the cork... LOL!

Yeah, there's a very real threat to cramming all sorts of crazy new cards in decks where they don't belong, but TC is a whole different level.

[ironclad8690]

Please do not play TC in the same deck as Bob. If you do please hand ae to your opponent whenever you flip one card advantage engine with your other card advantage engine and ask him to shoot you in the face with the cork.

Yeah, I realized that shortly after the match. I wonder what else might be able to go in his slot. Maybe 4 scooze?

[Dice_Box]

Bob, BBE, Lili, Library and Punishing Fire are all card advantage engines we have. I do not feel like this deck needs TC and if I wanted to play TC, why would I not just play BUG?

[iamajellydonut]

Bob, BBE, Lili, Library and Punishing Fire are all card advantage engines we have. I do not feel like this deck needs TC and if I wanted to play TC, why would I not just play BUG?

Agreed. We have multiple sources of card advantage. Treasure Cruise is not a unique snowflake in this aspect and it actually manages to hurt the deck by simply existing. Clunkier draws. Higher cmc. Completely going bonkers on graveyard reliance.

If you really want to splash blue, do it for the reason that everything else does. Brainstorm and Ponder.



Looking at this as an option for the GP. Would the mainboard Diabolic Edict be better off as a Golgari Charm? I feel like in a heavy Treasure Cruise meta that the Golgari Charm has more options to sweep Elementals along with True-Name. I thought about Jund Charm and I like the pyroclasm, but the other modes seem less impactful. The graveyard removal is nice but seems like a waste, and it will get filled up in time regardless.

I'm personally a fan of Golgari Charm as a flex card. I think the card is flawless regardless of what the "meta" says.

Also, I agree with you on the Jund Charm.

[razvan]

I think Jund Charm is *really* good. While the 2 +1/+1 counters are really not that big a deal (save shaman/elf from bolt, save bob from punishing fire, etc), the other two modes are very nice.

The 3cc is a problem, that's why having a miser's one is where it's at, but eh.

[sdematt]

I think Jund Charm is *really* good. While the 2 +1/+1 counters are really not that big a deal (save shaman/elf from bolt, save bob from punishing fire, etc), the other two modes are very nice.

The 3cc is a problem, that's why having a miser's one is where it's at, but eh.

Or just play the miser's REB. Counters Cruises, Jaces, TNN's, destroys Delvers, juliennes fries....

-Matt

[hovercraft]

Could a burning wish board be useful in Jund? Or would it be too slow

[razvan]

Doesn't fix any problem. It's slow. Use Maelstrom Pulse instead. Unless you REALLY want to kill a land.

[Claymore]

Took this list to a GPT, beat burn and tezz, lost to UR Delver (game 1 he stormed off with swiftspear to take me from 13 to 0, game 2 I had him but he got double treasure cruise late and killed me), drew against high tide (aggressive sylvan game one got me 3 hymns and a Thoughtseize, game 2 I had to mull to 5 to find anything remotely keepable, no lander then triple wasteland and nothing. Almost had it but he had counters for my hymn, chains, and surgical).

Is wasteland really that necessary in this deck? Our mana needs are very tight early on. Also, REB is really good, I feel like I want 3 in the sideboard.

2 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Dark Confidant
1 Golgari Charm
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Punishing Fire
2 Sylvan Library
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Bloodbraid Elf
Sideboard:

2 Duress
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Golgari Charm
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Engineered Plague
1 Jund Charm

[razvan]

So I took this list to the Legacy champs in Philadelphia:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Sylvan Library

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Wasteland
3 Bayou
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Badlands
1 Forest
2 Swamp

3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Golgari Charm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Jund Charm
1 Thoughtseize
2 Koth of the Hammer
1 Krosan Grip
2 Hymn to Tourach


The rest of Team Serious convinced me to play 2 Chains maindeck, and because we are all crazy, I thought it was a great great idea.

I am horrible with names and remembering, so I have to get home and glance at my life pad if I still have it. But until then a few things:

0) This is the tournament that reminds me why I like playing magic. I played 19 rounds between the 2 days, and I have had 19 great opponents. They were polite, humored me when I made stupid jokes (some might have even laughed honestly), and really fun to play against. It sucked that they were all better than me, but c'est la vie.

1) I went 6-4 on Saturday, and 5-4 on Sunday, after starting 4-1 both days. Fairly annoying, but again, what can you do. I lost 4 of the last 6 rounds in both days combined. Some unfortunate events, some bad plays, some really questionable plays.

2) The deck changes themselves and how some cards performed:

Bloodbraid Elf was rarely cast. The format is quite fast and a 4 mana creature with a random spell is not as great anymore. You still need 3 because there are some times you have to chance getting ahead, but unfortunately missing is a problem. Needing a removal and getting a discard, and so on, is a problem. I do not know a solution for that. I actively sided it out against UR delver for more removal and such.

Deathrite Shaman and Dark Confidant. Still great.

3 Goyf / 1 Ooze split. Both are fantastic creatures that deal well with the world. I am fairly sure I would need a 4th Goyf in there somehow.

4 Liliana of the Veil. I think the race for best planeswalker is closer than ever. Liliana is still #2, but not by far. She over-performed, even when she was just a Raven's Crime or a Cruel Edict.

4 Lightning Bolt. Perfectly necessary as always. The need to kill things on turn 1 has never been greater.

3 Abrupt Decay. Still great.
3 Punishing Fire. Still great.

2 Maelstrom Pulse. This card pulled its weight all weekend. Having two of them maindeck has been great. Probably cannot go back. It kills whatever the rest cannot. If we take out the BBE, putting a third in here is not out of the question.

1 Sylvan Library. Did its job. Eli Kassis suggested that a heavy Chains list would benefit more from Sensei's Divining top over Sylvan Library. People should listen to Eli :).

3 Thoughtseize, 2 Chains of Mephistopheles. Originally I had 4/1 split, but the rest of my lunatic team convinced me to go full-out on Chains. Of course the first matches were Red Painter and GW Maverick, but the card is really good. It slows down Delver tremendously, and has a serious effect on control and combo match-ups. The card is bonkers.

SB

3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Jund Charm
1 Krosan Grip

Fairly obvious so far, these cards were amazing all weekend. Jund Charm killing Stoneforge Mystic allowed me to win a few games. Never drew a REB or Krosan Grip, but I often wish I had.

2 Grafdigger's Cage

Never sided it in. No elves nor graveyard decks. Might have to be something else for Treasure Cruise, given our elves matchup to be ok.

1 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Thoughtseize

In case stuff's really drawing cards. They came in a few times, and they were fine.

2 Koth of the Hammer

I never realized I only had 2 mountains instead of 3, so this was a bit aggressive. I only used them once against Marco with Miracles, and he made a mistake by countering it. Otherwise, it's Koth, what do you expect?

Going forward, the Bloodbraid Elf idea needs to be revisited. A 3/2 creature isn't that great, given that you are the control deck in pretty much EVERY SINGLE MATCHUP it seems. Getting a random flip isn't that great.

I would rather try something like Domri Rade, which can use a Goyf to fight something, then have it for blocking. Seems like a good way to clean up UR delver, who beats you by speed. This means that adding a few more creatures will be necessary. Maybe more Oozes, or something beefier? Or maybe even just put in it alongside BBE's... who knows.

Oh, in my first matchup with UR, my opponent cast 3 Treasure Cruises, was about to cast the 4th... and ended the game with zero cards in hand to my 7. Jund. What can you do.

[Claymore]

I usually found Chains to be too much of a tempo loss wire being beat down...But I guess you just play it later?

Am I crazy or is Fire Imp actually a decent card to shoot down a Delver and threaten a trade against young Pyro?

[tescrin]

Going forward, the Bloodbraid Elf idea needs to be revisited. A 3/2 creature isn't that great, given that you are the control deck in pretty much EVERY SINGLE MATCHUP it seems. Getting a random flip isn't that great.


I've been on the "Get rid of BBE" train for a long time (6 months?)

IMO she should be:
-Eidolon of the Great Revel (awesome all the time. Hard on the manabase, so only for a non-punishing version I think)
-Library manipulation (Sylvan or Top.) These make my games so consistent and strong in Junk, with my opinion leaning towards top (especially with how little life gain you get)
-Loam (1 of, it's good, gets random wins. W/e)
-GSZ. Goyf or DRS 5 and 6, scooze 2 and 3
-Pyro. In a brew I had a lot of fun/success with Pyro + Pfire + Loam. It attritioned almost anyone out of the game.

Any of these would up the consistency and speed of the deck outside of random BBE God-cascades.

My preference would likely be some mix of Pyro, and GSZ.

Something like:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
0-3 Green Sun's Zenith
0-4 Young Pyromancer
0-2 Scavenging Ooze

3-4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
0-2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
1-2 Maelstrom Pulse
2-3 Sensei's Divining Top
0-1 Life from the Loam

23 lands


I don't know why you'd run 2 swamp honestly. I've been on 1 swamp 1 forest in Junk for 5 or more months and haven't been punished for it at all. Usually I fetch a basic or two early depending on the land base the opponent is using and my opener. I've been a lot more lax about it lately.

I think 24 lands is pretty wrong too. I think 23 is the sweet spot (especially once you get library manipulation in there) and 22 may be doable (I've been on 22 in Junk for a month or two.)


I didn't bring it up much in here because it's heresy; but someone else bringing it up makes me really want to speak up. I honestly think BBE is easily the weakest card in the deck and that the fact she grabs random good cards doesn't make her anything much different than a bad Snapcaster.

I'm not on board with the Chain-Train because but maybe I'll try her in the main again.

[razvan]

23 lands is correct, and 2 swamps was wrong. Wasteland is MUCH less of an issue now. Blood Moon is (I lost game 3 to this round 10 on Saturday because I was OVERLY greedy and foolish), but that can be avoided with better playing and less being stupid. This was from UR delver.

I think a Taiga is possibly necessary. I lost game two of that very same match because of a lack of Taiga.

Chains was just something to try out. 3 might be too many. 2 might be ok, but more testing is necessary.

No Hymn maindeck was correct. While Chains often discarded less than two cards, it invalidated a lot in their hand, slowed the game down to a crawl, and changed the entire game, actually.

Again, this is the situation now. For Jund anyway, the scariest thing is not Treasure Cruise, it's your life total. The UR delver deck seems to be very good at dealing the last few points of damage before you stabilize. As I said, the one player cast 3 of them and still had zero cards in hand to my seven. This sort of puts a damper on the Chains, but that's that.

Monastery Swiftspear is a thing now. That card is a problem, and 4 Bolts isn't enough to deal with it.

[Nuke is Good]

Again, this is the situation now. For Jund anyway, the scariest thing is not Treasure Cruise, it's your life total. The UR delver deck seems to be very good at dealing the last few points of damage before you stabilize. As I said, the one player cast 3 of them and still had zero cards in hand to my seven. This sort of puts a damper on the Chains, but that's that.

Monastery Swiftspear is a thing now. That card is a problem, and 4 Bolts isn't enough to deal with it.

UR Delver has that burn aspect that Jund is soft to. Treasure Cruise can just give them the gas to do it.

In terms of Taylor Swiftspear I've split my bolts with Diabolic edicts, I tried Chainer's edicts but the 7 mana for flashback was too much 90% of the time.

[FoolofaTook]

BBE is more reliable if you're playing Sensei's Divining Top main list. So is Dark Confidant, which basically turns into a 1-sided Howling Mine for you with minimal life loss involved or paying for gas when that's what's better. With fetches and top you can manipulate the BBE play to be consistently back-breaking instead of randomly so.

If you're seeing Jund morph into the Control list in this meta then maybe going whole hog on the control aspects isn't such a bad idea.

3x Sensei's Divining Top, no Sylvan Library, 1 less burn spell, 1 less discard. SDT doesn't combo with Chains of Mephistopheles but it does combo with it if you want to pull Life from the Loam out of your graveyard at the end of your opponent's turn. Just replace the draw with dredge and Chains of Mephistopheles won't trigger.

[big_ticket]

hi guys,im currently missing 5 cards from this deck,is it really good to save money for the chains?thanks

[aluisiocsantos]

Yes, specially now with Treasure Cruise this rampant.

EDIT: That said, actually, what are those 5 cards? Without the meat, you can't actually play jund.

[ironclad8690]

Yes, specially now with Treasure Cruise this rampant.

EDIT: That said, actually, what are those 5 cards? Without the meat, you can't actually play jund.

Someone please make vegan jund a thing

[Nuke is Good]

Since Swiftspear can easily get into 2/3 territory, maybe we should increase our lightning bolt count? As much as I like the punishing fire engine, it may be a bit too slow for such a fast deck.

[iamajellydonut]

Since Swiftspear can easily get into 2/3 territory, maybe we should increase our lightning bolt count? As much as I like the punishing fire engine, it may be a bit too slow for such a fast deck.

What's wrong with just killing the Swiftspear while it's still a 1/2?

[Nuke is Good]

What's wrong with just killing the Swiftspear while it's still a 1/2?

That is true, I've been trying out an older Jund list with Edicts/Lightning Bolts instead of the Punishing Fire engine which has been performing better.

[razvan]

Since Swiftspear can easily get into 2/3 territory, maybe we should increase our lightning bolt count? As much as I like the punishing fire engine, it may be a bit too slow for such a fast deck.
Don't get me started. Playing less than 4 Bolts is a mistake.

I didn't like Punishing Fire for a while, but now that Delver no longer runs Nimble Mongoose, Fire is back again to be really good.

Swiftspear is a problem, but killing YP and Delvers and Mystics and such easily is nice.

[ironclad8690]

Did any of you guys see the Jund deck from eternal weekend that cut goyf for smallpox? If so, what did you guys think of it?

[Claymore]

Took a similar list as above to another GPT and went 2-3 in the swiss...then shenanigans happens with the tournament organizer and after they did prizes, dropped everyone not going to Jersey so I snuck into top 8, then person I was paired with dropped because he already had byes and I made top 4. Lost in the finals to double Affinity god-hands anyway.

UR Shocklands Delver 0-2 (0-1): didn't have Punishing Fire either game and I was dead by turn 3 or 4 each game despite Decays and ground presence.
ANT 2-1 (1-1): Discard, hate pieces, and clock get there...plus terribly unlucky and inexperienced opponent.
Show and Tell 1-2 (1-2): Discard, clock, and a Chains to end things game 2. Games 1 and 3 he got fast combo.
Death and Taxes 2-1 (2-2): Punishing Fire, Liliana, and massive Goyfs get there games 1 and 3. Game 2 I had a great mull to 5 (DRS Lili Goyf 2 lands) but he got RiP and killed me. A timely Hymn in either game 1 or 3 nabbed some nice things.
Helminator (Swiss) 1-2 (2-3): Discard and Abrupt Decays let my clocks in. I get too aggressive in game 1 with Sylvan/Thoughtseizes and Tezzeret comes down to animate a Baleful Strix and the 5/5 flier clocks me from 7. Bad hand in game 3 comes back to kill me. I did use a Golgari Charm to regenerate my board against an Engineered Explosives in the game I won.

Top 4 Helminator rematch 2-0 (3-3): Discard, Abrupt Decays get there.
Finals Affinity 0-2 (3-4): I get bad hands on mulls to 6 and he gets god hands. Punishing Fire in game 2 didn't even do as much because of a Ravager that could pump Ornithopters.

The deck felt great against midrange decks (DnT, BUG Del) and control decks (Helminator) where discard could have impact before getting the pilot and any engines online - Liliana, Punishing Fire, Bob, Sylvan. Combo and fast aggro it has been just too slow and reactive - UR Delver, Elves, Burn, Affinity, Show and Tell.


Did any of you guys see the Jund deck from eternal weekend that cut goyf for smallpox? If so, what did you guys think of it?

That sounds...terrible. You lose your major clock for a card that is really bad in the meta right now, that could kill your DRS, Bob, or BBE. It's great off of a BBE cascade onto your empty board but that's it.

[sdematt]

We talked about the smallpox Jund deck on the next episode of Everyday Eternal. Smallpox seems bad in a format full of tokens...

-Matt

[Whitefaces]

Yeah. I've played a loam pox list similar to Kennen Haas recently, Smallpox just isn't as good as it was with young peezy running around and pissing on everyones fun.

[Whitefaces]

Here's a couple of thoughts going through my head at the moment.

I feel like Dark Confidant is quite weak. There’s a lot more 1CMC removal spells and burn flying around, taking damage is just too risky and his body is so weak (especially as people are playing loads of Forked Bolts!!!). We have to find CA from other sources (Mostly P. Fire I assume). This means Golgari Charm is much easier to play for the -1-1 without killing our own Creatures. It also means we could splash for Cruise. Could be worth trying?

Secondly, as powerful as BBE can be (and as much as I love the card), because of how streamlined Delver decks can be while at the same time throwing 1-for-1s at you only to refuel with a cruise, I think random cascading isn’t reliable enough. And 4 mana is quite a lot. I’m not sure what the replacement should be, maybe even Huntmaster of the Fells? Or just try and keep the curve low. We do need some beatsticks…4 Goyf for sure, and maybe 2 or even 3 Ooze? Reanimator has been popping up to beat UR Delver, it’s nice to have MD vs that as well as potentially keeping opponents GYs in check for cruise/dtt.

We’re also going to be taking the control role in a lot more matchups I feel, hopefully there’s a balance between control and low curve that can be found which is streamlined without Brainstorm. Two Sylvan Library doesn’t seem out of the question, though the loss of tempo can lose some games vs Delver decks. One main one SB might be correct. I think 4 Bolts is a must too, maybe even some Disfigure. Playing something turn 1 has become very necessary. We could even play a Deluge or two?

[Claymore]

Are you building BUG Delver?

[aluisiocsantos]

I think more Ooze is a good idea though. At least 1 main. Let's clean up those graveyards!

[Whitefaces]

Are you building BUG Delver?

I don't think so, these Lightning Bolts and Punishing Fires seem a tad out of place.

Advocating cutting the Bobs and BBEs might be heresy, but it may be a change worth trying. The current build of Jund just isn't cutting it vs all the burn from these UR decks.

[aluisiocsantos]

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14910&iddeck=110456
A list betting more on Ooze and mass removal spells (firespout AND golgari charm sideboard), and a card I learned to love in 4-C Loam which is Slaughter Games, great vs combo.

[razvan]

Removing Dark Confidant is probably a bad idea. I tried running 3, but it really is the greatest card. Even if it auto-eats every possible removal, it's still fine. It makes getting out of mulligans easier (at champs, I mulled to 4 vs. Shahar and 2 Bobs won that game), it's a solid beater, and so much more.

If you remove them might as well go the full control route with Pernicious Deeds and such, but taking Bob out so Golgari Charm is better is a bad idea.

Even if you kill your own Bob after it drew a couple of cards because of a necessary Charm or something, it's STILL good. Not to mention it can still block and kill something if you really need it to die, saving you a couple of life or whatever.

[iamajellydonut]

I would say I agree with razvan, but that would be implying a belief in Dark Confidant being the best card in the deck is opinion rather than fact. Excepting fetches and duals, Dark Confidant and Deathrite Shaman are the only cards that are never sideboarded out against any deck, and there's a reason for that.

[ironclad8690]

It is interesting that you never sideboard either of those out. I board out a single DRS vs Rest in Peace decks, and I board out some number of Bob vs burn decks. I am not saying this is necessarily correct, I just never considered anything having to be in the deck 100% of the time.

[iamajellydonut]

It is interesting that you never sideboard either of those out. I board out a single DRS vs Rest in Peace decks, and I board out some number of Bob vs burn decks. I am not saying this is necessarily correct, I just never considered anything having to be in the deck 100% of the time.

If you need to board out a Dark Confidant or a Deathrite Shaman, do so. I think I phrased my previous post a bit poorly. If you need to board one out, don't let me stop you, but they shouldn't be objectively be taken out on the basis of being poor cards in a match-up. Every other card in the deck has that match-up where you want every copy of it out of your maindeck and promptly incinerated. Thoughtseize, Liliana, Abrupt Decay, Wasteland. Each one of those, and every other non-land, you want to take out against something or the other. But not Deathrite Shaman. Not Dark Confidant. Those you have to cringe and justify taking out even in their worst match-ups. Like a graveyard dependent dork still being something you want against a deck whose sole objective is to eliminate your graveyard. Like a Goblin Piker that loses you life still being something you want against a deck that goes for the dome.

[razvan]

Bobs are fine against burn. They block Goblin Guide, and you need all the luck you can get vs. burn anyway so you hope to play them and them flipping lands, and just aggro them down quickly.

Plus, if it dies, and it will, +2 life from Shaman, who *might* live :)

[razvan]

Ok so Reid Duke wrote this article:

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/miracles-in-the-world-of-treasure-cruise/

When Reid talks, people should listen. He says primarily that you don't want to be Hymn to Tourach and Abrupt Decay in this metagame.

We all agree on Hymn, although 2 in the SB seems right. Abrupt Decay was never "good", it was just necessary.

I honestly do think Jund can be tweaked to be a control deck with Tarmogoyfs as beat-down, especially if Miracles decides to be slower. Having burn-style removal (so 4 Punishing Fires) is really good because it's great against Miracles and UR Delver.

Meh.

Maybe take out the BBEs, put 2 Garruk Relentless and go to town?

[Gunz24]

The problem isn't the cards it's the method by which Jund wins. Just like Reid says when you've worked all game to grind out incrimental advantage only to see it completely ruined by a top deck Treasure Cruise you can't win. Jund is a deck that wins through attrition and Treasure Cruise takes that attrition and turns it into card advantage. Garruk doesn't fix this. Garruk is just more incremental advantage negated by their sudden influx of cards. I believe Jund to be unplayable in this meta for exactly this reason. I jumped ship in favor of UWR Delver. Dark times.

[razvan]

I have a hard time expressing my opinion, even when not sick. Let me try again.

Jund is excellent at controlling the board. Our removal can deal with all their threats, especially reoccurring removal like Punishing Fire and Liliana of the Veil. It doesn't matter how many late game Treasure Cruises they get, it generally won't make a big difference if you survive the early game.

This is why I shaved down the discard (down to 3 Thoughtseizes, which incidentally was the amount I was running in Aggro Loam). They are generally useless, but can snag a Cruise or some early action. I had 2 Chains of Mephistopheles maindeck as ridiculous bombs, especially early on if they are counter light, shutting off a quarter of their deck. I can’t see them winning ever if you have a chains and a Punishing Fire.

Everything else is geared to fight the delver decks. Maelstrom Pulse, and as before Lili and Fires. Even Bolts and Decay are fine because of how random Treasure Cruise is.

They have 4 basic types of cards alongside Cruise. Threats, Cantrips, Lands, and *generally* soft counterspells. If you survive the early game, the latter 2 are meaningless, cantrips are really fine but don’t do anything to the board, and threats, threats that die to everything in our deck.

So let them Treasure Cruise, and kill the Delver or the Pyromancer. Great, parity.

Garruk is there as the new 4 mana thing, mostly to combat Miracles. And in a pinch, he can snipe a creature off too. It might not work, and it might be the case that we don’t need 4 mana things to begin with.

[Gunz24]

This is exactly the problem. If you're hedging your deck to fight delver decks which historically are Jund's best match-ups you are significantly impacting the deck's ability to fight through what were already terrible match-ups with various combo decks. The entire reason a heavy discard package existed in the deck was to fight the ANTs, Sneak and Shows and Reanimators of the world. You're taking your worst match-ups and making game 1 nearly unwinnable. That's not the answer to this meta. Based on the comprehensive and very well done meta analysis by Bob Huang in this article(http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/november-2014-legacy-metagame-analysis/), of the top 8 performing decks worldwide since the release of Khans Elves, ANT and Reanimator are among them making up a combined 18.4% of the top 8 meta worldwide. To further break it down Patrick Chapin's article on the metagame break down found here (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/29641_A-New-Legacy.html) shows combo decks as a whole taking up nearly 40% of the overall meta. That almost half! So what you're advocating is taking already extremely difficult and nearly unwinnable games for roughly 1/5 of the top performing meta and 2/5 of the overall meta worldwide and making them worse in order to fix what should be the decks best match-up. Do you see how that doesn't lend itself to top 8ing? Sure you'll win some games but you won't win the tournament. And if you're taking this to GP NJ you might not see day two.

[razvan]

First, I am quite ready to admit that I am wrong. I am wrong a LOT so this wouldn't exactly be new :P And keep in mind that from my end, it's mostly theory-crafting not actual massive tournament results, so... yeah.

I don't know why people consider Elves a bad match-up.

Between Chains and Thoughtseizes, and then massive sideboarding, I don't find combo to be unwinnable either.

Also, looking at the top 5 decks (currently, I expect this to change next update): Miracles, BUG Delver, Elves, DnT, Shardless.

Those are all decent match-ups. Yes, Storm is an issue. I don't think it's overwhelming though.

Look at the top 8 decks from champs:

Helm-Combo
Punishing Maverick
UR Delver * 2
RUG Delver
UWR Delver * 2
BUG Delver

Now at Huang's analysis:

1. Miracles (18.4%)
2. UR Delver (12.3%)
3. Elves (7.9%)
4. DeathBlade (7.9%)
5. ANT (6.1%)
6. UWR Delver (4.4%)
7. RUG Delver (4.4%)
8. Reanimator (4.4%)

Miracles is Miracles. Even if we change, it's a tough match-up, but I think we have a slight edge, especially since they wanna run 2+ REB maindeck.

I haven't even faced Deathblade in forever, I have no idea, I can imagine that's fine.

Elves I mentioned above.

The Delvers is what I am trying to beat.

ANT is a problem. Reanimator is a problem (less so). We can hedge against them with heavy sideboarding. We can afford to do that too. Most decks can't do it without diluting their plan, but for us, we exchange some removal for better removal and still maintain the rest of it.

ps: that maverick deck looks awesome with the Domri's!

[w4rlock]

I'm planning on going to GP NJ, but would appreciate some advice from the wiser community on how best to sideboard in this current meta with UR Delver running rampant post-SCG Columbus. What should I take out/put in in the big matchups?

I run a stock Punishing Jund list and my sideboard is currently:

2 Surgical Extraction
3 Pyroblast
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Plague

[Vandalize]

So, now it seems that Lightning Bolt should be a 4-of. UR Delver is everywhere, and killing all their threats with good ol' bolt is gold. I've also been thinking BBE and Liliana of the Veil haven't been so stellar, so I've cut BBE and shaved one lilly. My latest list is the following:

Lands [23]
3 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Grove of the Burnwillows

Creatures [14]
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze

Spells [22]
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sylvan Library
1 Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard [15]
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Golgari Charm
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Duress

Scavenging Ooze has been overperforming. It's just that good. Once it reaches 4/4, people tend to lose quickly. I haven't missed BBE for now. Reaching four mana has always been a problem against many decks, and taking four off Bob has cost me more games than I'd like to remember.

[aluisiocsantos]

Love the GSZ, its a neat flex slot in a deck such as this, keep the gas pumping.

So, two libraries out, two chains in, when sideboardjng?

Also im glad im not the only one on the iok train - been messing with it even when we were still getting aroung TNN and it seems even better now, with hymn potentially working backwards vs tom cruise.

Gah itching so much to play again!

[Rizso]

The jund colors got so much stuff thats really powerful.

Olivia for example, if ever untap with her against UR then they dont have much cards at all in there 75 to combat her.

[Vandalize]

Love the GSZ, its a neat flex slot in a deck such as this, keep the gas pumping.

So, two libraries out, two chains in, when sideboardjng?

Also im glad im not the only one on the iok train - been messing with it even when we were still getting aroung TNN and it seems even better now, with hymn potentially working backwards vs tom cruise.

Gah itching so much to play again!

Well, depending on the match, I'd see myself keeping them both. Against Miracles, for example, where Lightning Bolt isn't as relevant, resolving Sylvan Library or Chains is great. Don't forget that Sylvan Library has a "may" ability, so you can skip it when you have Chains on the field.

IoK has been great. I almost always target removal, against fair decks. Let Bob do his work.

[w4rlock]

If Hymn is "unplayable" according to Reid Duke and people above are saying BBE should be taken out, then essentially all known card advantage Jund utilized is nonexistent in this current format. Is Jund officially dead?? I don't feel GSZ is useful at all due to its lack of CA and speed, but do feel upping Scooze is a must. What other constructive ways can we tweak Jund for the meta without sacrificing Hymn or BBE?

[aluisiocsantos]

I'm really upset those delve cards are blue and completely ignore the "card advantage" style of play which is one of magics fair decks signature feature.

[Nuke is Good]

If Hymn is "unplayable" according to Reid Duke and people above are saying BBE should be taken out, then essentially all known card advantage Jund utilized is nonexistent in this current format. Is Jund officially dead?? I don't feel GSZ is useful at all due to its lack of CA and speed, but do feel upping Scooze is a must. What other constructive ways can we tweak Jund for the meta without sacrificing Hymn or BBE?

Hymn is still playable. It's sided out against the noncombo matches but yeah I hesitate now casting it. I don't the rationale of cutting BBE as well. Jund is in a bad spot, the most popular deck at the moment is a burn variant which we are stoft to. Cutting Hymn and BBE makes it sound like a neutered modern version of Jund.

The irony of this all is that Maverick is making a comeback, a deck when Jund was popular was on the decline.

[ironclad8690]

The irony of this all is that Maverick is making a comeback, a deck when Jund was popular was on the decline.

I think that Maverick is in a good spot with the BG/x being hated out of the format to a new extent. I wish we could just jam Phyrexian Obliterator like the Junds of Modern did when Wild Nacatl was made legal again. Kitchen Finks seems good too, but I don't know about doing things like that. As you said, we don't want to be a crappy Modern version of something that was once pure and streamlined. Bloodbraid Elf is so good because it brings a level of game against decks like Miracles while also being good against aggro.

[sdematt]

Hymn is still playable. It's sided out against the noncombo matches but yeah I hesitate now casting it. I don't the rationale of cutting BBE as well. Jund is in a bad spot, the most popular deck at the moment is a burn variant which we are stoft to. Cutting Hymn and BBE makes it sound like a neutered modern version of Jund.

The irony of this all is that Maverick is making a comeback, a deck when Jund was popular was on the decline.

It might be worth running Carpet of Flowers as acceleration. Reasonably, all their cards in UR are worse than everyone else's, they're just fast and can Cruise. If we can actually drop Goyfs and such out of Daze range, we are the better deck...

-Matt

[aluisiocsantos]

I havent really seen any maverick aroudn though. There was one listed in SCG this week that sounded more like… green and taxes?

[MissMisplay]

I've noticed a few things that I have questions and/or comments about.

We have definitely decided that we want 4x Lightning Bolts. I agree 150%. But, in every single list I have seen, no matter where I have seen it, we always play 3x Punishing Fire's. I'm curious as to why this is? If PF's kill Delvers along with a large amount of other critters that are a pain in the ass, why then are we not playing 4? It would mean we would have more available to use without having to give our opponent the life to gain the card back from the gy as well as leave our bolts available to strike down newer threats, like a grown Taylor Swiftspear, for instance.

My next question/comment would be instead of playing Edict main like many lists have been, there has been question raised of playing Jund Charm sb. I find this card to be unbelievably useful in so many matchups. It destroys pyromancer and all of her friends. Kills Taylor before she gets out of control, swipes Delver, great in the mirror, can easily wreck an elves players day... I could go on. Did I mention it is a wonderful way to clear a gy against this Treasure Cruise/Dig everyone is creeped out by? Oh, and reanimator won't like it much when the charm eats their yard either. There are the problems of course of timing the play of the -2 to creatures so you don't wipe out your entire board and leave yourself dry or having the card dead in hand without the mana to play it. But, I've had taiga in since I started playing this deck last year, so I rarely have tri-color mana issues. So, 1-2 Jund Charm main? I may give it a major thought or even a try for this GP.

Another card that nobody has mentioned at all that is kind of odd is Dimir Machinations. This card allows you to look at the top three cards of their library and exile any number of them. It also has a transmute for 1BB. If we play Jund Charm, Maelstrom Pulses, along with Liliana we could not only remove what they brainstormed for or topped for or pondered for if needed, but, if that's not necessary, we could transmute into that needed charm, pulse or Lily or other three costing thing I can't think of right now lol. Anyway, so yeah. That idea. I might be crazy, but, I really like the idea of messing up their setup of brainstorm or whatever.

Also what if we just take out BBE and play all Scooze? Don't yell at me. I think we should tho. And last but not least...

Hero's Downfall. Why do we not play this card in legacy? Is it too slow? Abrupt Decay doesn't hit Jace and he's a jerk. Maelstrom Pulse hits Jace but at Sorcery speed but for multiple colors, sure, it kills more than just creatures and pws. Idk. Just another random thought. Okay, I have to go pack for this drive to NJ. Let me know what you guys think so I can finalize my list. Good luck to everyone going. Someone top 8 this thing!

[razvan]

I still don't understand why people are afraid of Delver. They don't even run Mongoose anymore, which is by far the worst nightmare.

They are not burn. They run creatures, right into a wall of removal. Yes, they can get broken hands that will overwhelm us, that can happen. But overall, they run into a (re-occuring) wall of removal with their threats.

Even if they chain Treasure Cruises, as I said before, it won't likely matter if we are at solid life. We will kill their threat, leaving them with land and cantrips. When they deploy another threat, we have another kill.

One of the big issues with Delver before was them having a creature and us drawing discard late game. Meh.

Also, to paraphrase the Starks, all I keep hearing is "Combo Winter is coming" again... and yet all combo (except Elves) seems to get less and less popular (a side-effect of Delver decks coming out en force.

I really don't think Jund is in a worse position with a few changes. One is, as Matt opined, the removal of Hymn to Tourach in favor of Thoughtseize. We care about a few specific cards more than "cards", and we can tailor the sideboard to fight Combo anyway.

[w4rlock]

I agree with Razvan. As the most relevant part of this thread right now is what to expect at the GP, I think we shouldn't be too afraid of Delver. Sacrificing our CA in Hymn for essentially one or two types of decks is pretty ludicrous when we'll most likely be running into Burn, Maverick, DnT, Affinity, Infect or other "cheaper" decks at the GP. Less we forget how expensive blue is to play in Type I.

Viva la Hymn! No way I'm cutting dat good good. GL at GP NJ

[Rizso]

Did anyone see the bbd vs cvm live? UWR-stoneblade vs punishing Jund. News in Punishing fire and Liliana is still very good :P

BBD cast 3 cruises on the same turn and still losses! Can just image what a card like chains of meph in the 75 would give the extra power to the discard suit in the deck.

[sharkbrains]

This is the list I intend to play tomorrow at GP NJ. I brought it to a LGS Event for a foil Liliana of the Veil plus pay out. I split first and second out of 26 people. It was 3 am and I was to tired to go on for another round.


Creatures (15)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Bloodbraid Elf

Spells (22)
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library

Lands (23)
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Wasteland
2 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard (15)
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Volcanic Fallout
1 Golgari Charm
1 Jund Charm
2 Choke
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
2 Duress
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Bow of Nylea
1 Ancient Grudge

Round one played U/G Infect
Lost 0-2
Just didn't really see the cards I needed when I needed them. Wasteland was never there for the killing blow from inkmoth.

Round two played Storm
Won 2-0
Everything went perfectly for me, him not so much.

Round three played R/W Painter's Servant
Won 2-0
Game 1 I just landed a fat tarmogoyf and he couldn't land a painter to blast it.
Game 2 I landed a turn 2 Liliana making him sac his Painter, which he had the win on his turn 3, and surgically extracted it. He scooped in response.

Round four played against U/R Delver
Won 2-1
Game 1 I didn't let a single creature stick.
Game 2 I punted because I missed 1 point of damage
Game 3 I landed a volcanic fallout and then landed a fat tarmogoyf and he had no way of removing it.

Round five played against Tin Fins
Drew 1-1-1
Game 1 he whooped my ass
Game 2 I landed a turn 1 grafdiggers cage and he scooped
Game 3 we realized we could draw into top and chose that option

Top 8 Played U/R Delver
Won 2-0
Had turn 1 DRS, turn 2 Lili, Turn 3 Goyf with removal backup both games and he just couldn't handle it.

Top 4 Played against Merfolk
Won 2-1
Game 1 I punted by missing 1 dmg with punishing fire.
Game 2 He didn't see a vial or a second land.
Game 3 I pulsed his vials, wasted his cavern, and jund charmed his board before he got more than 1 lord out and he fell too far behind.

Top 2 matched against U/W/r Miracles and we drew. I feel like miracles is a favorable match up.

I played jund without punishing fire for a few weeks, but punishing fire is just too good to not play. It literally wins games, and destroys any delver deck single handedly. Since U/R is rampant right now, I feel confident about taking this deck to GP NJ.

[aluisiocsantos]

So..
http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/day_1_undefeated_decklists.html

7-0-1
Jund
Arya Roohi
701st Place at Grand Prix on 11/15/2014
Legacy

Person finished 11-3-1 apparently.

Creatures (15)

2 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf

Planeswalkers (3)

3 Liliana of the Veil

Lands (23)

1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills

Spells (19)

1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

Sideboard

1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Choke
1 Sylvan Library
1 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Duress
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

This seems to go sort of with what weve been talking about.. more Scooze, more Chains, less Hymn.. less BBE and LILY.. More IOK
Also double Toxic Deluge, seems fun!

[sdematt]

I was thinking about running 2 Deluge maindeck, similar to how Shardless BUG started running it.

Plus, BBE into deluge, wipe the board, then attack in for 3 seems just fine.

-Matt

[aluisiocsantos]

That does sound pretty bonkers

[Nuke is Good]

This thought came up while I was playing the Modern version of Jund post DRS ban. I'm probably going to commit some heresy for saying this but, has the thought of reducing how much Jund hurts itself cross anyone's mind at alll? I thought of cutting off a single dark confidant as it's a card I like having but I never ran two on the field at once. I pondered (lol blue card) at the thought of using a MD Scooze or trying goblin rabblemaster.

BBE into a sweeper sounds nice, though in my mind it be things like Anger of the Gods or Volcanic Fallout. I did do a toxic deluge for 15 once to get rid of an emakrul that allowed me to swing for lethal the next turn, but I dunno if I'd run that card still. I'd rather have Chainer's Edict or the likes.

[Whitefaces]

This thought came up while I was playing the Modern version of Jund post DRS ban. I'm probably going to commit some heresy for saying this but, has the thought of reducing how much Jund hurts itself cross anyone's mind at alll? I thought of cutting off a single dark confidant as it's a card I like having but I never ran two on the field at once. I pondered (lol blue card) at the thought of using a MD Scooze or trying goblin rabblemaster.

BBE into a sweeper sounds nice, though in my mind it be things like Anger of the Gods or Volcanic Fallout. I did do a toxic deluge for 15 once to get rid of an emakrul that allowed me to swing for lethal the next turn, but I dunno if I'd run that card still. I'd rather have Chainer's Edict or the likes.

Well, tonight at my LGS I played 3 bobs, 2 BBE and 2 Scavenging Ooze. Went 3-1, only losing to UR Delver in the last round due to quite unlucky draws, even the other player admitted it (9 lands G1 and 2 lands G2 and didn't see a single SB card). I beat Sneak and Show, NO Maverik and DnT in the other rounds.

My list was:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Dark Confidant
2 Bloodbraid Elf

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to tourach
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire

2 Sylvan Library

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

SB

1 Toxic Deluge
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Chains of Mephistopholes
3 Pyroblast
1 Umezawas Jitte
2 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Jund Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Duress