[Deck] Jund

[aluisiocsantos]

Neat. I played a couple matches on cockatrice with the gp list, but with a tombstalker instead of he third ooze, and the list does work pretty well.

I like the idea of tombstalker with just two bobs, it's out little twisted version of tom cruise, i mean, a way deadlier one and that flies above ninja turtles and elemental tokens.

[Whitefaces]

So I'm toying with the idea of Loams, Mox Diamonds and Seismic Assaults. Anyone tried something like this in a more standard Jund list?

[Nuke is Good]

So I'm toying with the idea of Loams, Mox Diamonds and Seismic Assaults. Anyone tried something like this in a more standard Jund list?

Sounds like the old assault loam lists. Different from what Jund wants to do these days.

[Rizso]

This thought came up while I was playing the Modern version of Jund post DRS ban. I'm probably going to commit some heresy for saying this but, has the thought of reducing how much Jund hurts itself cross anyone's mind at alll? I thought of cutting off a single dark confidant as it's a card I like having but I never ran two on the field at once. I pondered (lol blue card) at the thought of using a MD Scooze or trying goblin rabblemaster.

BBE into a sweeper sounds nice, though in my mind it be things like Anger of the Gods or Volcanic Fallout. I did do a toxic deluge for 15 once to get rid of an emakrul that allowed me to swing for lethal the next turn, but I dunno if I'd run that card still. I'd rather have Chainer's Edict or the likes.

There was a couple of Jund list that top8ed in japan with 3 Rabblemasters instead of the 3 Bloodbraid Elves.

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15185&iddeck=112690 3 cards missing but guessing thats the Deathrite shamans.
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15146&iddeck=112394
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15145&iddeck=112386 Rabbles in the board.

Rabblemaster ends games very fast. Playing him in standard so I know :P

[sdematt]

Rabblemaster is definitely not a bad card. A friend has been playing him in Mogg Catcher as a 3-4 of and it is very good.

There's some argument that you want to cut Deathrite Shaman and keep Bolt or TS on turn 1 and then just crack down Rabblemaster on Turn 3 because Deathrite into 3-drop on turn 2 is just less reliable nowadays. I'm not sure I'm 100% on that, but Rabblemaster is worth trying for sure. If anything, for me, it likely takes the Goyf slot since it is your "beater." I think even though BBE is slow, it gives you the card advantage you need (and haste) against other control decks. In addition, with Carpet of Flowers, that card gets cast reliably on Turn 2/3.

-Matt

[Rizso]

An other tournament from japan - Challengers to God of Legacy. Takatori Kouhei palying rabble / punishing jund to finals vs uwr miracles.

The games exists on youtube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7Xf77tzicA&list=PL-HjF9Jl-4X2dWk3XhHPmwi1W8kERt0YC&index=1*
for thoes that want to watch, playlist.

Rabblemaster does give "card advantech" as well in extra bodies each turn.

[razvan]

It's funny that everyone before the GP was like... Jund is dead... and now literally everyone is saying "I wish I played Jund".

Hm. Anyway.

Rabblemaster is something that I read a hundred times and never thought to put in the deck. It just shows that i am an idiot. It's ok, moving on. If I get my hands on some, I definitely wouldn't mind trying it out.

[Nuke is Good]

It's funny that everyone before the GP was like... Jund is dead... and now literally everyone is saying "I wish I played Jund".

The amount of burn I saw at the GP scared me off on playing Jund so I did a last minute change to Reanimator, for such a long event I chose a deck that would have quick decisive victories or total blowouts. By round 8 I sorta felt tired but not as tired as people playing slower decks, which gave me wins. I did do a GPT and lost to burn at Semifinals with Jund. With Maverick making a comeback in my local meta, dropping down the punishing fires is gonna be a weekly thing and I can finally crap on death and taxes again.

[razvan]

Eh, true enough. Burn preys on Jund. I still don't understand how or why anyone would bother playing that silly deck, but c'est la vie.

I still don't think it is worth putting in anything to combat burn. If you face it, just stand up, moon your opponent, sign the 0-2 sheet and walk away, having 50 minutes to do something else. :P

[Rizso]

Eh, true enough. Burn preys on Jund. I still don't understand how or why anyone would bother playing that silly deck, but c'est la vie.

I still don't think it is worth putting in anything to combat burn. If you face it, just stand up, moon your opponent, sign the 0-2 sheet and walk away, having 50 minutes to do something else. :P

Thought there is defenitly cards that has game against burn thats really not that out of line to be in the board. Courser of Krufix solid card that dont dies to bolt, Obstinate Baloth bit steaper in manacost but wastelands arent that good against burn anyway so can be used for mana. Even steaper mana cost is Thragtusk and solid card against miracles as well.

[Nuke is Good]

Budget/older versions were pretty linear with boltin to the face.

It's funny when I first starting playing Magic again with Jund I didn't know it was a miserable matchup and my first few matches against it were pretty good until SCG Providence where someone hit me with a card called price of progress hit me for 12. But yeah I still don't believe building sideboard cards against it, to me its a fringe deck...that happens to show up a lot.


On another topic I overheard people talking about "2Chains" I'm guessing it's Jund or Deadguy Ale mainboarding 2 chains of meph, to me that was a bit of a kneejerk reaction to TC. I can't justify owning more than one of those things right now. Amazing SB card nonetheless.

[aluisiocsantos]

I think that having more ooze might ramp the chances of winning though, either being by making them wasting burns on it or by us or by ooze eating people

[razvan]

On another topic I overheard people talking about "2Chains" I'm guessing it's Jund or Deadguy Ale mainboarding 2 chains of meph, to me that was a bit of a kneejerk reaction to TC. I can't justify owning more than one of those things right now. Amazing SB card nonetheless.
Haha, well, if this was at Legacy champs, that was Team Serious making fun of me because I played 2 Chains in the MD (+1 SB). It is a kneejerk reaction to it but it works quite well.

Keep in mind that 80% of all decks in the top-X usually have Brainstorm (so others say). There's a lot of random little things that draw cards too (Glimpse of Nature and Elvish Visionary in Elves). It is quite an effective card. For two mana, you shut down a quarter of their deck. They also rarely have any answers to it, so it really does slow them down. Anything short of them going first with Delver into YP... if you play a Chains and they don't have a threat on board, the game is effectively over for any Delver deck.

[sdematt]

I'll be trying this tomorrow:



4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Thoughtseize
3 Punishing Fire
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
3 Badlands
3 Wasteland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Swamp


SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Volcanic Fallout
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Xenagos, the Reveler
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage

Added Deluge to the maindeck to handle more tokens and such, and was able to shift the removal towards more Bolts. Sideboard has Fallout and Carpet of Flowers for Delver (speed up and just drop better threats, and another piece of wipe your board at instant speed). Slaughter Games, Grip, and Xenagos are for Miracles/Control matchups. Combo is a little weak, but you've still got your Cages, hand disruption, and such.

-Matt

[aluisiocsantos]

Neat, I've always wanted to try a split between bbe and Xenagos, seeing the similar cost, and somewhat effect. plus they are both great weapons vs miracles, and i love the escalating damage of an active xenagos.

I used to love volcanic fallout back in the day I played a rogue sneakattack/stax brew for the exact same reasons, flying 3/2s.

[anakyn]

Honestly, playing Xenagos in Jund (and in Legacy overall) doesn't seems the best choice to me.

If I had to play another planeswalker other than Liliana, I'd prefer Garruk Relentless or even Domni Rade before him.

If he's there for Miracles, I guess Choke is a better option: it's cheaper, more flexible, and probably just stronger than Xenagos.

[hobart]

So I'll be playing list very similar to sdematt's at my next local, but I cut the BBEs and I have a couple Scavenging Oozes in the main. I am also running 3x Maindeck Hymns and 1x Red blast. The Oozes I have no question about, since they have been outstanding, but I do have a question about hymn, is it good these days? In the past it has shined against combo and fair, but is it still good in today's cantrip heavy cruise meta? I could cut another one for another maindeck red blast, or perhaps some more one mana discard like Inquisition, what do you guys think?

[aluisiocsantos]

I've lately been running IoKs instead of hymn, leaving two of them in the board for combo. I just like the precision. Sure, you cant discard cruise with it, but can take other threats that will ultimately kill you such as jittes, tnn and so on.

[Nuke is Good]

This is a bit off track of what we've been discussing.

A friend of mine has been consistently beating me down in MTGO with his UWR Miracles deck. Sometimes I just want to sneak in a win to stop the horrible losing streak I have. He is significantly better than me in Magic and plays Miracles nonstop so I was trying to optimize the deck to hedge my chances against him, short of building 12 Post. Yet I can beat his list using Reanimator somehow.

I have an old Punishing Jund list from the post TNN mania and was looking to optimize it. How would I increase my chances against UWR (even though we have a decent matchup against them). Should I look to reduce discard and have even more removal? I already pack 4 Abrupt Decays.

[hovercraft]

This is a bit off track of what we've been discussing.

A friend of mine has been consistently beating me down in MTGO with his UWR Miracles deck. Sometimes I just want to sneak in a win to stop the horrible losing streak I have. He is significantly better than me in Magic and plays Miracles nonstop so I was trying to optimize the deck to hedge my chances against him, short of building 12 Post. Yet I can beat his list using Reanimator somehow.

I have an old Punishing Jund list from the post TNN mania and was looking to optimize it. How would I increase my chances against UWR (even though we have a decent matchup against them). Should I look to reduce discard and have even more removal? I already pack 4 Abrupt Decays.

Abrupt Decays are already a lot of maindeck fuel against miracles, especially with thoughtseize too. Just make sure your SB has a few pyroblasts, krosan grip, and some pithing needles

[Whitefaces]

You could play a couple of Slaughter Games in the SB? They're usually too slow for combo matchups, but if you extract Entreats and have Punishing Fire online for Jace and random snaps/cliques you should be fine.

Pernicious Deeds have been really strong from the SB for me too. Great Entreat insurance and can make it very awkward for them to top/fetch.

[aluisiocsantos]

I remember winning at least two matches against miracles because of a resolved Deed on the table. And right now it doubles as salvation in the middle of a sea of elemental tokens. I like it.

I'm pretty sure the key for winning miracles is dealing with the Top though, so cards such as Null Rod are amazing (and hey, people can't equip jittes with it in play, or shatter petals, lions eyes, etc!). If you're on the play, always try Thoughtseize/IoK and grab a hold of the top! Keep the Decay at hand for the pesky Counterbalance and you're pretty much set. Hymn to Tourach isn't as strong as before due to blue delve cards, but it should do a number on the deck I believe.

[Domri Rade]

I always sided hymn out when I was playing them in the main against miracles. What they have in hand is not as important as what they have in play or on the top of there deck for the most part. Miracles is one of the main reasons I have krosan grip in the side it deals with top, and batterskull very nicely.

[Whitefaces]

I always sided hymn out when I was playing them in the main against miracles. What they have in hand is not as important as what they have in play or on the top of there deck for the most part. Miracles is one of the main reasons I have krosan grip in the side it deals with top, and batterskull very nicely.

Same, I usually side out two TS on the play and all on the draw too.

[aluisiocsantos]

I can agree on Hymn, but I see no reasoning for cutting TS i nthe matchup. Hymn is still one of the ways jund can build up on card advantage though, and top is Miracles'. If you have to cut something, maybe it be something else than discard.

[iamajellydonut]

but I see no reasoning for cutting TS in the matchup.

While I dislike boarding out Thoughtseizes against Miracles, I have done it and there are reasons to do so. Well, reason. Thoughtseize is a fantastic card, but it's not necessarily fantastic against Miracles. When you're looking to keep in your Abrupt Decays and your Lilis and your creatures, when you reach the point where you can't cut anymore Wastelands or Golgari Charms, sometimes it comes down to Thoughtseize just being the weakest card.

[aluisiocsantos]

It's still better than Punishing Fire though, in this MU. Better discarding Entreat than having to find a way to kill tokens.

[wizard_of_gore]

Hmph... boarding out discard against UW control decks is not really primary thing in a deck where you can't fight things on stack... punishing fires, lighting bolts, maybe scooze are all dead cards against miracles, where thoughtseize, hymn to tourach, liliana of the veil, abrupt decay, bloodbraid elf, dark confidant are greatest - yes, cripling their hand reduces their options after all. After sideboard, 2-3 pyroblast, additional discard, pithing needles, slaughter games, krosan grips, surgical extraction / extirpates are tools you want. I'm playing jund very long time (generaly rock based decks), but I'm also long time miracle player and i know i don't like when someone durdle with my hand :). Yes - i can have Jace in play, counterbalance and top in play without cards in hand and keep game in my favor, but it doesn't mean it's always like that. Btw., i don't like boarding some number of wastelands out too, because, it can come handy if they stuck with some nonbasic lands in play.

This is my list played 2 weeks ago on local tournament (6 rounds tournament, draw with GBW nic fit, won against miracles, 2x won against uwr delver, won against dredge, then lost in finals vs. team america.):

4x deathrite shaman
4x dark confidant
3x tarmogoyf
3x bloodbraid elf
1x scavenging ooze

4x thoughtseize
3x hymn to tourach
3x liliana of the veil
4x lightning bolt
3x punishing fire
3x abrupt decay
1x sylvan library
1x maelstrom pulse

4x wasteland
3x grove of the burnwillows
4x verdant catacombs
3x wooded foothils
1x bloodstained mire
2x bayou
2x badlands
1x taiga
2x swamp
1x forest

sb:

2x duress
3x pyroblast
1x slaughter games
2x surgical extraction
2x graffdigger's cage
1x pithing needle
1x ancient grudge
1x toxic deluge
1x pernicious deed
1x golgari charm



vs miracles sdeboarding:

-1 scooze
-4 bolt
-3 p fire
- 1 groove of the burnwillows

+2 dures
+3 pyroblast
+1 slaughter games
+1 pithing needle
+1 surgical extraction
+1 pernicious deed

After boarding, your deck looks like this:

4x deathrite shaman
4x confidant
3x goyf
3x BBE

4x thoughtseize
3x hymn to tourach
3x liliana of the veil
2x duress
3x pyroblast
3x abrupt decay
1x pithing needle
1x sylvan library
1x maelstrom pulse
1x pernicious deed
1x slaughter games
1x surgical extraction

Just put pressure on them but still be patient with your creatures, don't go aggresive route with overextending. Try to have one creature in play attacking, holding other in hand and waiting. Miracles like to exploit full potential with their cards and terminus leaving you far behind and out of gas, and if you stop them in that plan, you surely gonna win.

This is me and my budy playing jund and miracles in casual enviroment (we played with sideboard):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rXLj9j8fe4

:D

[aluisiocsantos]

There was a National Legacy tourney here in brazil with 118 players, and a Jund player took the 1st place.
http://i.imgur.com/6Wo9OaB.jpg
You can see the coverage here, go towards the end of the video to see the finals, vs UR delver.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G4ddhKARUk#t=30840 towards 8:34:00.

EDIT: Oh, there was actually 2 Junds in top 8. 5 Jeskai Blade lol
the decklists
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.893150140710147.1073741956.405738072784692&type=1

[Claymore]

Punishing Fire is very strong against Miracles. It is a Jace removal engine, late game you can chain them together to wipe out entreats, and over a long game it is a win condition.

Keeping in an overwhelming amount of discard against them is not good, they play off the top of their deck much better than any other deck. I like keeping Thoughtseizes but Hymns gotta go.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Only problem with seize, what card can miracles play (commonly) do you actually care about, with hymn you're getting a 2 for 1 and generating card advantage in your favor

[aluisiocsantos]

I'm 100% sure you're going to win any miracles match if you can Thoughtseize their Divining Top.

[wizard_of_gore]

Punishing Fire is very strong against Miracles. It is a Jace removal engine, late game you can chain them together to wipe out entreats, and over a long game it is a win condition.

Keeping in an overwhelming amount of discard against them is not good, they play off the top of their deck much better than any other deck. I like keeping Thoughtseizes but Hymns gotta go.

Punishing fires are awful against creatureless decks. I'm sure you don't want rely on p. fires against resolved entreat :rolleyes:. Are you even serious about that? You can kill jace, but of all options which can take care about jace, p. fires is the worst one, because they can't kill it on spot sometimes. Anyway keeping fires in g2 against miracles only because of Jace or maybe 1 clique is wrong thing. Pyroblast, pithing needle, maelstrom pulse and even creatures in play are better choice to combat JTMS in play. Or you can discard it which is the best option. ;)

[Claymore]

Good luck surviving to your own turn to play your Pulse against Entreat. Maybe discard it oh wait it's on the library.

Punishing Fires is good against decks that do nothing but durdle all game and rely on Walkers to win.

Taking out 3 Fires and replacing them with 1 Needle isn't going to work, and I'd rather save the Needle for Sensei's Top. Terminus against your creatures is their main path to victory anyway.

[aluisiocsantos]

I wish my miracles opponents only did entreat for one. How do you survive x=3 by using punishing fire?
Here's the deal man: rntreat is in the top BECause of slinning top. Your post board has to solve the Sensei top problems, not the entreat one.

[Claymore]

I'm not sure if you guys are aware, but this Jund deck runs several copies of both Grove of the Burnwillows and Punishing Fires. Miracles games tend to go late. It's not uncommon to have a bunch of mana on the board when they feel comfortable (or are forced) to go for the kill with Entreat.

[FoolofaTook]

The Brazilian list is great. 2 tops main list with 4 Dark Confidants and 4 red blasts for the blue heavy meta. No BBE because UR Delver doesn't let you get there. A Maelstrom Pulse to handle unpredictable things.

My hat is off to the person who designed that. It's next level Jund for this meta.

I'm going to sleeve that up and take it on Friday for my local tourney. It's really an inspired list.

[sdematt]

So they took the REB idea I posted and took it to thebvery edge? It's deep but I approve.

[Rizso]

That brazilian list is a beuti. The 4 blasts 2 chokes and chains against blue decks. The tops looks perfect for game ones you don want to draw the blasts. Being almost preboarded againt blue isnt really that far fetched when 8 of 10 decks are blue.

[razvan]

Choke is another thing that works fine. I don't know if 4 REBs MD are the way to go.

Especially against Miracles. It is their white cards that are a problem. Other than Chains (and even that's not 100% effective), I don't know.

As I said, it's probably better to have Garruk / Koths, and win before they can. Those cards (usually) dodge Terminus.

Also, they are FUN. That's another thing :).

[FoolofaTook]

That brazilian list is a beuti. The 4 blasts 2 chokes and chains against blue decks. The tops looks perfect for game ones you don want to draw the blasts. Being almost preboarded againt blue isnt really that far fetched when 8 of 10 decks are blue.

Tops and Liliana make the blasts much less dead than they'd otherwise be in non-blue matchups. The only thing that I see that is a little bit iffy is 14 black mana sources and 6 :b::b: spells. Even then the tops would help find the second black source against somebody wasting one of the first two.

[ceustice]

Has anyone seen the list CVM played against BBD in the versus video in GPNJ?

[Rizso]

Has anyone seen the list CVM played against BBD in the versus video in GPNJ?

His version was one of the japanese ones with rabblemasters instead of bloodbraids.

[Claymore]

I was a bit skeptical about the Tops over Sylvan, but being able to have Liliana +1'ing constantly while floating REB for Cruise and able to draw it makes me appreciate it.

[razvan]

I was a bit skeptical about the Tops over Sylvan, but being able to have Liliana +1'ing constantly while floating REB for Cruise and able to draw it makes me appreciate it.
That is very true. Being able to top to maximize Liliana even more is pretty good.

[iamajellydonut]

That is very true. Being able to top to maximize Liliana even more is pretty good.

It is pretty good, but it's also a pretty narrow usage. You have to find the scenario where you have mana to screw around with Top, where you have one of your two REBs sitting on top, where you don't have a Punishing Fire to ritually pitch, and where Liliana consistently ticking up isn't already winning the game. Sure, there are corner cases. I've certainly lost after a Lili ultimate, but that alone is not enough to justify Sensei's Divining Top over Sylvan Library. Top helps. Library wins games. There are points when Top is more useful than Sylvan Library, but there really aren't enough of those reasons in the stock Jund list.

[Rizso]

Top works better with chain of mephist then the library.

[iamajellydonut]

Top works better with chain of mephist then the library.

There's a list of more than thirteen thousand cards that work great with Chains of Mephistopheles. If you've landed a Chains against a deck that cares about Chains, you can typically probably just ride it out with Squire beats. Mainboarding 2Chains could be seen as a reason to run Sensei's Divining Top. 2Chains main with two copies of a Top-effect means that they'll be frequently seen in tandem. But for those decks that continue to have Chains in the side, there's no reason to dilute your mainboard for such improbable and overall insignificant scenario. Chains Vs Library. No matter who wins, they lose.

[Nuke is Good]

I decided to dust off Jund for the LGS in a weekly event. To be honest it was a last second choice due to my opponent who I knew was a DnT player I kept losing too week after week with reanimator. This makes me wonder...does Jund go to time so much? I don't remember it doing that when I played it a year ago.

I was in Top 8 contention for once which was awesome


R1...Some weird ass ashiok deck. I seriously thought I was facing DnT due to the player.

G1 I beat him down with Goyf fast enough that I don't know his deck. But I saw no creatures and it was U/B.
G2 In my INFINITE wisdom I boarded out my punishing fires. He resolves the Ashiok and I get milled to death. He was stealing my poor goyfs
G3 We ended on turns

0-0-1

R2 Maverick
G1 I decide to wastelock him but he has only a Maze of Ith out. So I kept pecking him to death with a dark confidant since he kept untapping my BBE.
G2 Sword of Feast and famine from him and a big ass KotR is staring me down and I topdeck a lucky abrupt decay on the sword. He misplays his lingering souls allowing me to eat it with DRS, but he did have 6 of them on the field I use Maelstrom Pulse on. I use Punishing fire to peck him to death and DRS to shrink his knight.

1-0-1

R3 12 Post
Never faced this deck before I think...this is a positive matchup
G1 Three bloodbraid elves in a row allow me to beat him into submission.
G2 I had him down to 4 life then when I tried to +1 Lily he responded by drawing with Top into an obstinate baloth and it all went downhill there. I took a overloaded cyclonic rift and was beaten to death by a hardcasted emakrul.
G3 Ended on Turns.

1-0-2

R4 BURN
I really wanted to scoop here

G1 He had to have kept a bad hand here. I managed to get two DRS online to absorb his dead swiftspears from punishing fires. I went extremely aggressive here and fetched Badlands over basics for great results.
G2 Turn 1 DRS, Turn 2 Lili, Turn 3 BBE into Jitte. I used Jitte to kill his lavamancers and I proceed to just keep gaining life.

2-0-2

I'm glad to have used this deck again to great results though I might have to adjust the list to the current meta.



Main Deck (60)
Creatures (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf
Spells (22)
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
2 Sylvan Library
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Punishing Fire
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (23)
1 Forest
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
3 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
Sideboard (15)
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Life from the Loam
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pernicious Deed

[Jon]

Hey everyone, I decided to run a list of Jund at the SCG Open here in Atlanta. I decided to run a rather unique list that strays from what people think of Jund. I had maybe 8 Rounds of Magic under my belt with the deck before the event started. In the Open Trial I went 2-2 but I knew if I had played better I would have been 4-0. First I will share my list :

Ape Jund

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Coursers of Kruphix
2 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Hooting Mandrils

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozelik
3 Punishing Fire
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Funeral Charm

2 Sylvan Library

3 Liliana of the Veil

2 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
2 Swamp
2 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacomb
3 Bloodstained Mire


SB:

1 Ancient Grudge
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Pithing Needle
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Tsabo's Web

So as you can see there is an obvious lack of Dark Confidant. I never was a fan of the card and as the format has sped up, I always saw him as a liability instead of a card advantage generator. I may be wrong but I never missed it once, and in multiple matches it would have hindered me rather then propelled me.

The second most obvious thing you will notice it 2 choices that are indeed legal in standard. Courser of Kruphix was the all star for the event. Courser is the sole reason I won many games, not only though life gain but card selection. Hooting Mandrills was also insane, the card is Tarmogoyf number 5 in many matches and much better then Tarmogoyf then others.

Here are my matches and my feelings on them,

Round 1:
Andres C. (Very nice deck and very experienced player)
EsperDeathBlade, 2-0, Very Favorable

1-0

Round 2:
Nick O (Stated he was new to legacy or something)
Quad Laser Dredge, 2-1, Equal

2-0

Round 3:
Nate B. (Newer Miracles Player)
Miracles, 1-1-1, Slightly Unfavorable

2-0-1

Round 4:
Chris A. (Wont Comment)
RG Lands, 2-1, Slightly Favored

3-0-1

Round 5:
Jack F. (Talented Miracles Man)
Miracles, 1-2, Slightly Unfavorable

3-1-1

Round 6:
Adrian T. (Local Friend)
B/G Rock, 0-2, Slightly Unflavored

3-2-1

Round 7:
Joseph M.
SFM Affinity, 2-0, Very Favorable

4-2-1

Round 8;
Chris Yarbrough (Nice Fella)
Bant Lands, 1-2, Slightly Unfavored

4-3-1

Round 9:
Arya R. (Jund man who 9-0'd Day 1 of the GP)
Jund, 2-1, Slightly Favored

5-3-1 good for 47th out of 24X.

Overall I was very impressed with the deck and the list I decided to play. If I was smart I would have taken a loss instead of a draw as I knew the Miracles Draw bracket would be a tough road ahead. Going forward this is the list I would play at an event tomorrow.

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Coursers of Kruphix
1 Hooting Mandrils

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozelik
3 Punishing Fire
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Call of the Herd
1 Life from the Loam

2 Sylvan Library

3 Liliana of the Veil

2 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacomb
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills


SB:

1 Ancient Grudge
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Life from the Loam
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pithing Needle
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Tsabo's Web

The deck actually felt insane all day and with a bit more tuning I think this list will easily be the best deck. The reason I did not do better was my poor play and lack of experience with the deck.

[tescrin]

IMO:
-Call of the herd, BBE, Mandrills should be bobs.
-Swap one Scavenging Ooze a GSZ. No reason for 3 Scooze; this gives you the third virtually while improving your abilty to get DRS, Goyf, or Courser.

Maybe I'll give your list (or similar) a go and see how it fairs, but I really feel like Scooze #3, Mandrills, and Call of the herd are just worse than Bob/GSZ. I understand call gives you two 3/3s against miracles, but Bob gets you cards => more dudes.

That said, congrats on doing well. I hope I'm as fortunate this weekend.

[Jon]

IMO:
-Call of the herd, BBE, Mandrills should be bobs.
-Swap one Scavenging Ooze for a GSZ or a Goyf. No reason for 3 Scooze.

You said Mandrills was Goyf #5, was 3 a mistype? Maybe I'll give your list (or similar) a go and see how it fairs, but I really feel like Scooze #3, Mandrills, and Call of the herd are just worse than Goyf or GSZ. I understand call gives you two 3/3s against miracles, but Bob gets you cards => more dudes.

That said, congrats on doing well. I hope I'm as fortunate this weekend.

I don't think you want Dark Confidant in the deck anymore, Mandrill was INSANE all weekend and Scoozes were always threats and always live. Dark Confidant always dies without getting some advantage or being a threat. In my opinion, Jund needs to be closer to the ground with more targeted Discard, Raw Removal, and just raw power threats.

[razvan]

I have tried Courser, and it was ok. I should try it more. I need to figure out a way to properly insert it in the deck.

Bob is probably worse in a meta full of Delver decks, it always has been. Ooze, of course, is amazing in this same meta. If you are certain you will face lots of Delvers, of course, this is the correct call.

But you will lose the ability to win long games against decks that don't care about removal. Bob is a must-kill, and if he survives even one turn, chances are he will win you the game. It's as close to a bomb as this deck has. It's not necessarily wrong to ever experiment, but I (personally) think this is not optimal.

[aluisiocsantos]

Erm it might be just me but if I want to put a delve crewture in Jund colors, Tombstalker is the go to card, not Mandril. It flies above tokens and blocks most goyfs/batterskulls. What gives?

[Asthereal]

On the Top discussion:
The main reason I would like Top over Sylvan is the fact that this deck has very few proper turn one plays. Thoughtseize and Deathrite are our only good ones, which will cause us to quite often not have a card to play on turn one. Top is a great turn one play, and we don't necessarily have to use it all the time.



Erm it might be just me but if I want to put a delve crewture in Jund colors, Tombstalker is the go to card, not Mandril. It flies above tokens and blocks most goyfs/batterskulls. What gives?
You're not wrong, but it is probably optimal to run Dark Confidant, which kind of makes it impossible to play Tombstalker anyway. If we were to not play Confidant, Stalker would be my first choice as a Delve dude also, but I am not willing to ditch Confidant just yet.

[aluisiocsantos]

I want to try top as well. Not only its a great turn one play, we dont lose turn two for Livrary, opening to other good plays such as t1, drs, t2 top, wasteland.
Or, it opens to great top3 variations onthe fly with fetchlands. The use of mana is the only drawback, which is the actual need of testing to see how better it would fare.

On the delve card: i want to try out a list like a mix of the brazillian and the gp Nj one.. No bbes and 2 Bobs, but with top, tombstalker and pyroblast. Might go to cockatrice later today

[Neffy]

I picked up jund again and went 3-1-2 a few days ago. The two draws were surprising but I guess the list is a bit more grindy than usual lists.

I won over miracles, miracles and ur delver, lost to maverick (which shouldnt have happened) and drew against D&T and something i forgot.

The list was as follows:

3 goyf
3 bob
4 DRS
2 courser of kruphix

4 bolt
2 pyroblast
3 decay
3 p.fire
1 m.pulse
2 liliana
1 garruk relentless
2 sylvan library
4 thoughtseize
3 hymn

4 waste
1 forest
1 swamp
3 grove
3 badlands
3 bayou
8 fetch

Courser, double library and garruk were awesome however the clock a bit slow.
The board featured dual chokes which one me 3 games, 1 chains and 1 pyroblast. The hate on blue is so fun atm!

[Nuke is Good]

I used top when I first played Jund. It worked great in grindier matchups but it's a manasink and a half. It's harder to hold up B/G mana to bluff an abrupt decay which lead me to use Library instead. Whenever I play the deck Library seems to get thoughtseized more than the top ever did.

[blackdiamonds]

I want to try top as well. Not only its a great turn one play, we dont lose turn two for Livrary, opening to other good plays such as t1, drs, t2 top, wasteland.
Or, it opens to great top3 variations onthe fly with fetchlands. The use of mana is the only drawback, which is the actual need of testing to see how better it would fare.

On the delve card: i want to try out a list like a mix of the brazillian and the gp Nj one.. No bbes and 2 Bobs, but with top, tombstalker and pyroblast. Might go to cockatrice later today

I tried one top and one library in my list i really liked it even tho its a little clunky late game its great with bob to see more cards or to set up a board state with BBE after a wrath

[FoolofaTook]

On the Top discussion:
The main reason I would like Top over Sylvan is the fact that this deck has very few proper turn one plays. Thoughtseize and Deathrite are our only good ones, which will cause us to quite often not have a card to play on turn one. Top is a great turn one play, and we don't necessarily have to use it all the time.

And it will bring out Force of Will if they're sitting on it almost every time. That makes the turn 2 plays better. They'll suffer through Thoughtseize on the draw and they'll remove DRS but they'll force a turn 1 top every time if they can.

[FoolofaTook]

I used top when I first played Jund. It worked great in grindier matchups but it's a manasink and a half. It's harder to hold up B/G mana to bluff an abrupt decay which lead me to use Library instead. Whenever I play the deck Library seems to get thoughtseized more than the top ever did.

Top works better in non-Punishing Jund and nobody plays the non-Punishing variant at this point. It also really requires you to play at least 3 of Bob, probably a playset. If you can get them to remove DRS first and then get Bob and a top in play that's a lot of cards, practically your own personal Howling Mine.

[Neffy]

Yesterday i took my Jund 2.0 build to a second tournament with 20 players.

My lists was the same:

3 goyf
3 bob
4 DRS
2 courser of kruphix

4 bolt
2 pyroblast
3 decay
3 p.fire
1 m.pulse
2 liliana
1 garruk relentless
2 sylvan library
4 thoughtseize
3 hymn

4 waste
1 forest
1 swamp
3 grove
3 badlands
3 bayou
8 fetch

The board was:
2 surgical
1 Grafdigger
2 Choke
1 pyroblast
1 ancient grudge
1 null rod
1 chains of mephistofeles
1 slaughter games
1 jitte
2 golgari charm
2 massacre

I started with losing the mirror which was a fun match but if you can stick a deathrite or p.fire combo you're safe. G1 He wins with creatures, G2 i win with surgical on his P.fires and g3 i just lose to them :(
The next 4 rounds I won over BG pox (surgical on blood ghast was king again!), Merfolk (best match up in the world!), Miracles(null rod and garruk pwnage!) and RUG delver.

The list is so much fun and dual sylvan and Courser seems so strong atm. I do miss the fourth goyf/bob but Im not sure what I want to remove to get them back in yet.

Over and out :)

[ironclad8690]

Finished 4-2 at a local 41 person tournament to come in 9th place to win 1 Marsh Flats, 2 Windswept Heath, and 1 Bloodstained Mire (Onslaught for Mire and Heaths).

Here is my list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
3 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Scavenging Ooze

3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Hymn to Tourach

3 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library

3 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
2 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Engineered Plague
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Choke
1 Phyrexian Revoker (switched from Pithing Needle at last second and it was definitely a good call, stopping LED in a game against storm)
1 Umezawa's Jitte

I cut Thoughtseize 4 and Dark Confidant 4 to make room for the maindeck Oozes, I think Inquisition is a little better than Hymn, but not all the way better hence 2-1 split. Cut the 24th land for Lightning Bolt 3.

Round 1: Death and Taxes

Game 1: I keep a 6 card hand with fetch + DRS + Dark Confidant. Fetch Swamp play DRS. He goes plains STP. I never draw another land and lose in short order.
Game 2: I get a great hand with plenty of removal, charm his board of Thalia, Mom, Mom, and proceed to bloodbraid into gas while he doesn't recover.
Game 3: I lose to batterskull and jitte after thalia kept me off of my spells for a little while.

0-1

Round 2: Storm

Game 1: He storms me on turn 3.
Game 2: I draw like 9 discard spells in the first couple of turns and win with a goyf.
Game 3: I keep thoughtseize and surgical on the draw. He plays volc pass. I play thoughtseize, he brainstorms in response. I see a hand of Infernal Tutor, Ad Naus, Chrome Mox, LED, Land, Cabal Ritual and something else. I take Infernal Tutor and Surgical it. He Ad Nauseums after a turn or so, and gets down to 5 life with no tendrils. He brainstorms 1 time, preordains 2 times, and casts a bunch of rituals. Storm count is no longer a problem, but he just needs to find the tendrils. He casts a ponder with his last blue mana and finds Tendrils and kills me, hell of a game on his part.

0-2

Round 3: Storm

Game 1: I die on turn 2 having no interactivity
Game 2: I revoker on LED, get a bunch of sweet discard and a fast clock and win.
Game 3: He goes for it early after I mull to 4 and he fizzles. I clock him from 14 to 0 with deathrite and instants/sorceries.

1-2

Round 4: Miracles

Game 1: He entreats me early and I die.
Game 2: I choke him on turn 3 and he doesn't recover.
Game 3: I choke him on turn 3 and he doesn't recover.

2-2

Round 5: Maverick

Game 1: I get punishing fire lock, scavening ooze, goyf, sylvan library and liliana on board and he scoops.
Game 2: I Golgari charm his board of dryad arbor and thalia, I establish a superior board state and evenually grind him out of cards using hymn and bloodbraid elf.

3-2

Round 6: Maverick

Game 1: I stomp him by removing every creature he plays and wastelanding all of his lands.
Game 2: He stomps me by equipping sword of fire and Ice to a Knight that I can't answer.
Game 3: I punishing lock him out of the game. I have to decay a Rest in Peace somewhere in there, but eventually I pull ahead through punishing fire and Liliana.

4-2

Multiple Oozes were awesome in the maverick matches. I was hoping to face Cruise decks to see how I did without Chains, but I never encountered any. The deck still feels fine, and I think if anything it has improved since people have been playing decks like Maverick and UWR Blade more frequently now. Didn't really miss Hymn 2-3 and inquisition 1-2 were actually really good all day. Felt good to win prizes with a "dead" deck, and if anything i was rewarded for "going with what I knew/felt comfortable with". Maybe all those really good magic players who keep telling me that are on to something ;)

[sdematt]

Good job!

-Matt

[zulander]

Soooo I've been a brewin!

Mana: 23
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Badlands
3 Bayou
2 Taiga
4 Wasteland

Creatures: 20
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Tombstalker

Disruption: 14
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy

Other: 3
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
2 Electrickery
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Pyroblast
1 Krosan Grip
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Thorn of Amethyst

The board's not fixed just yet, but the deck seems to have adapted to the meta fairly well. Obviously combo still sucks but cage + blast + therapy + null rod out of the board can sometimes slow them down enough to kill them.

Oh God how the turn 1 DRS -> Rabble -> BBE hands are redonk-ulous.

[Nuke is Good]

Question, would it be worth running two Chains of Mephistopheles in the side? I am going to be grabbing one next week, but spending so much on a one off that I may never see feels silly. Maybe I am over thinking it buy would not two be more impactful?

I'd just test running one first to see if it's worth shelling out for. I run two Sylvan Libraries main so I only have one Chains sideboarded. I'd rather have my deck be more consistent than mess with my opponent. For a tri color deck Jund does get manaflooded a lot.

I've noticed that Library and Bob are one of the top targets for removal and discard through most matchups.

[ironclad8690]

I'd just test running one first to see if it's worth shelling out for. I run two Sylvan Libraries main so I only have one Chains sideboarded. I'd rather have my deck be more consistent than mess with my opponent. For a tri color deck Jund does get manaflooded a lot.

I've noticed that Library and Bob are one of the top targets for removal and discard through most matchups.

I have found that same thing to be true with bob and library. For example, death and taxes has no way to deal with sylvan pre-board, and I have found that sticking one often leads to a win. Experienced pilots will always remove or counter them if possible.

[ironclad8690]

Anyone else still Junding?

Went 2-1 in my weekly tournament last night. List is reverted back to "mainstream" Pun Jund.

4 Deathrite
4 Tarmo
4 Bob
3 BBE

4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach

3 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library

3 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
1 Choke
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Engineered Plague
2 Golgari Charm
2 Duress
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Phyrexian Revoker

Round 1: Elves!

Game 1: I play some creatures and some removal but Natural Order puts me away before I can stabilize.

Game 2: I draw sweepers and creatures while he draws nothing.

Game 3: I draw sweepers creatures and removal, he had a decent draw too but mine was too removal heavy.

1-0

Round 2: UWr Stoneblade

Game 1: I lose to a True-Name with SoFaI on it, as you do in game 1 when you don't draw a Liliana or Abrupt Decay.

Game 2: I win very quickly with multiple Tarmogoyfs after Thoughtseizing his RiP and Decaying his Stoneforge in response to a fetch, which kept him from putting Batterskull in.

Game 3: This is the most back and forth game of magic I have ever played, and it probably lasted about 20 minutes. One of us would resolve something amazing, and it would require a specific answer from the other to keep things from getting out of hand. He plays a Stoneforge, I remove it and later Grudge the Batterskull. I play a bloodbraid into deathrite, he pyroclasms etc. Here is a list of all of the spells I remember using on his creatures/permanents:

Lightning Bolt -> Stoneforge
Ancient Grudge -> Batterskull
Ancient Grudge again -> Sword of Fire and Ice
Pyroblast -> Snapcaster Mage
Pyroblast -> Snapcaster Mage
Wasteland -> Moorland Haunt (lolwut?)
BBE ino Liliana -> Kill the spirit token (He Council's Judgment's lili)
Golgari Charm -> True-Name
Bloodbraid Elf -> Deathrite Shaman (Pyroclasmed)
Abrupt Decay -> Stoneforge Mystic
Choke -> Islands (He had a Mystic Gate though) (worn and torn)
Punishing Fire 3 times -> Stoneforge with a Jitte with 2 counters on it.
Engineered Plague -> Merfolk (Worn and torn)
Dark Confidant -> (Pyroclasmed)
Golgari Charm -> Rest in Peace
Abrupt Decay -> Jitte
Punishing Fire 3 Times -> Jace

From the beginning of the game he has an active Sensei's Divining Top, and I have to say he got maximum mileage out of it. By the end of the game, he stabilized at 11 health from Grove activations (I had him at 5 at one point), me at 9 life. He casts True-Name (probably one of his last threats at this point). I have to get a Lili to answer it. I draw 1 card off of a Bob and 2 cards from draw steps, but I can't find the card I need or even a deathrite to gain life. I reveal and lili was the 2nd to top card at the end of the game. I had to have made at least 2-3 mistakes because this game went on for so long, and I can probably say the same for my opponent. The biggest thing I think I should have done was focused on P Firing my opponent instead of his Jace, because I had a 2 turn clock by the sheer number of times I could recur punishing fire in a turn. Instead I took down Jace, assuming the role of control rather than aggro, and it cost me the game.

1-1

Round 3: Infect

Game 1: I use my removal at the best times possible, but he has enough protection and pump to close out a somewhat grindy game before I can assume control.

Game 2: Sweepers and timely wastelands followed by active Jitte make mincemeat out of my opponent.

Game 3: Sweepers and a fast clock from Tarmogoyf + active Liliana really drive this one home.

2-1

I got $16 in store credit, and I am pretty happy with the deck. Would love to hear anyone else's experiences in the current metagame.

[btm10]

Is there a reason more people don't seem to have picked up on MB Red Blasts for large events? Aside from givig you relevant stack interaction, they're pretty solid removal and rarely dead. If it's a local meta thing that makes sense, but Blasts really do seem well positioned right now.

[ironclad8690]

Is there a reason more people don't seem to have picked up on MB Red Blasts for large events? Aside from givig you relevant stack interaction, they're pretty solid removal and rarely dead. If it's a local meta thing that makes sense, but Blasts really do seem well positioned right now.

Judging by the current DTB's, it doesn't sound like a bad idea at all. The problem that I have run into in testing is that there is quite a bit of finesse to knowing when to leave the mana open to play it, or prioritizing other things like discard/removal/creature.

Also, unlike the blue decks, we cannot shuffle a dead blast away; which I think might be the difference between maindeck and sideboard. When I approach deckbuilding I like to have as few dead cards as possible, and even before TC we have been cutting it pretty close with how many situational cards we play.

Then again, people have had success incorporating it into their decks, so if you feel like it is the right thing then by all means go for it. What are the cards that it replaces? Other cards that are good against blue to maintain ratios, or do we give up percentages against the non blue decks?

[btm10]

Judging by the current DTB's, it doesn't sound like a bad idea at all. The problem that I have run into in testing is that there is quite a bit of finesse to knowing when to leave the mana open to play it, or prioritizing other things like discard/removal/creature.

Also, unlike the blue decks, we cannot shuffle a dead blast away; which I think might be the difference between maindeck and sideboard. When I approach deckbuilding I like to have as few dead cards as possible, and even before TC we have been cutting it pretty close with how many situational cards we play.

Then again, people have had success incorporating it into their decks, so if you feel like it is the right thing then by all means go for it. What are the cards that it replaces? Other cards that are good against blue to maintain ratios, or do we give up percentages against the non blue decks?

My answer to these questions is "I don't know". Jund is on my list of decks to build for 2014, but I need to get Groves and Badlands first - all of my Legacy experience is with Enchantress and blue decks (mostly TA and Shardless, but UR Delver, Grixis, and RUG too). I'm more trying to understand why people seem to be slow to incorporate fairly inexpensive cards that seem very good. Conditionality is a good argument, I was just wondering if that was it. That being said, I'll probably start on blasts as almost everyone in my local plays some sort of blue deck.

[aluisiocsantos]

The one list from brazil nationals had 4 pyro mb and 2 sensei top, to help. Also if its the case you dont need the card g1, you can always discard it to lily!

[btm10]

The one list from brazil nationals had 4 pyro mb and 2 sensei top, to help. Also if its the case you dont need the card g1, you can always discard it to lily!

Yeah, this is part of the reason I'm surprised so few people are doing it!

[Rizso]

The one list from brazil nationals had 4 pyro mb and 2 sensei top, to help. Also if its the case you dont need the card g1, you can always discard it to lily!

Not to mention that 80% of the decks do contain blue cards.

Kinda like the lists that has started to play with Courser of Kruphix, card engine that dont die to bolt and even soften the punch from the burnish nature of the format with lifegain.

[aluisiocsantos]

Not to mention that 80% of the decks do contain blue cards.

Kinda like the lists that has started to play with Courser of Kruphix, card engine that dont die to bolt and even soften the punch from the burnish nature of the format with lifegain.

Thinking now I can see a nice synergy between Sensei Top and Courser.

[ironclad8690]

Went 2-1 in my local weekly tournament.

Round 1 Elves

Game 1: He wins the die roll. I remove a couple of his guys, but he overwhelms me with a craterhoof eventually.

Game 2: I remove almost every creature he plays and he scoops.

Game 3: My removal doesn't come online fast enough and a massive craterhoof swing ends me.

0-1

Round 2 Shardless BUG

Game 1: He suspends 2 ancestral visions within the first 2 turn, and despite missing a couple land drops he overwhelms me.

Game 2: I play multiple bloodbraids and overwhelm him.

Game 3: He misses a miraculous amount of land drops despite resolving 2 ancestral visions. and I win with a Goyf.

1-1

Round 3 Sneak and Show

Game 1: Lots of discard an liliana seal the deal with bloodbraids and goyf bringing him down.

Game 2: I don't get the multiple running discard topdecks I need. Emrakul gets me.

Game 3: Turn 1 I thoughtseize show and tell and surgical extract it. I get plenty of discard and a fast goyf clock shuts him down.

2-1

Gonna see what I can do to shore up the elves matchup a little bit. Maybe 4 lightning bolts cutting a lili or something. How is everyone else doing?

[DOM]

Elves never seemed to be a problem to me before and after sideboard. Pretty much everything you have in your deck sans creatures is bad for them (creatures are bad too, but they are not interactive). Post board I bring in 2x Engineered Plagues, 1x Golgari Charm, 1x Grafdigger's Cage, 1x Chains of Mephistopheles, 1x Umezawa's Jitte and remove 3x Bloodbraid Elves, 1x Life from the Loam, 1x Tarmogoyf and 1x Deathrite Shaman. Liliana is good post board because you can make them sacrifice a Progenitus if they managed to get through your removal, e.g. fetched a Dryad Arbor to feed to Natural Order. The most problematic creatures of theirs are Heritage Druid and Wirewood Symbionte, but once you kill them, Elves suddenly get left behind. Summa summarum, as long as you prioritize your targets, are not afraid to lose some extra life in the process (let them beat you with some less relevant creatures in order to deal with the more threatening ones that may soon appear on the battlefield) and have some relevant cards in your sideboard, you should be fine.

[ironclad8690]

Elves never seemed to be a problem to me before and after sideboard. Pretty much everything you have in your deck sans creatures is bad for them (creatures are bad too, but they are not interactive). Post board I bring in 2x Engineered Plagues, 1x Golgari Charm, 1x Grafdigger's Cage, 1x Chains of Mephistopheles, 1x Umezawa's Jitte and remove 3x Bloodbraid Elves, 1x Life from the Loam, 1x Tarmogoyf and 1x Deathrite Shaman. Liliana is good post board because you can make them sacrifice a Progenitus if they managed to get through your removal, e.g. fetched a Dryad Arbor to feed to Natural Order. The most problematic creatures of theirs are Heritage Druid and Wirewood Symbionte, but once you kill them, Elves suddenly get left behind. Summa summarum, as long as you prioritize your targets, are not afraid to lose some extra life in the process (let them beat you with some less relevant creatures in order to deal with the more threatening ones that may soon appear on the battlefield) and have some relevant cards in your sideboard, you should be fine.

That makes sense, I think I may have been sideboarding incorrectly. I have been removing discard to fit in the extra removal, but now that you mention cutting bloodbraids that seems like the best way to go, I can see how the hand disruption is still pretty important.

My thinking in cutting the discard was that I would rather deal with the stuff on the board than the stuff in their hand, but there are still plenty of juicy hymn and thoughtseize targets. Bloodbraid also doesn't come down til turn 3 at earliest, and if your opponent is on the play you often wont have enough time to cast it anyways.

Thanks for the tips!

[DOM]

As you have said, BBE is too slow in this matchup and also you might not cascade into relevant spells, thus it is better to swap them with the cards you would want to draw. Discard is necessary because they may combo out with a rather empty board thanks to the Glimpse of Nature/GSZ into Craterhoof (they do not have to have a mass of Elves to beat you with that), thus it is not enough to have answers solely for the things on board. Targeted discard helps to get rid of their key cards, i.e. Heritage Druid, Wirewood Symbionte, Glimpse of Nature, Natural Order, which is clearly beneficial. At best Hymn to Tourach works like targeted discard and at worst you still reduce the amount of cards in their hand which is relevant since they not always draw creatures from Glimpse of Nature, thus the less cards they have, the lesser CA Glimpse provides.

[aluisiocsantos]

I find that i lose more often to natural order than anything. If they can manage to get a single creep in game without removal we insta lose. It's kinda random. Many ifs - you coulda discarded it or you couldve use removal in everything or you couldve a lili to sac hydra - but too many options to go around and they generally exclude each other

[skyout]

Elves never seemed to be a problem to me before and after sideboard. Pretty much everything you have in your deck sans creatures is bad for them (creatures are bad too, but they are not interactive). Post board I bring in 2x Engineered Plagues, 1x Golgari Charm, 1x Grafdigger's Cage, 1x Chains of Mephistopheles, 1x Umezawa's Jitte and remove 3x Bloodbraid Elves, 1x Life from the Loam, 1x Tarmogoyf and 1x Deathrite Shaman. Liliana is good post board because you can make them sacrifice a Progenitus if they managed to get through your removal, e.g. fetched a Dryad Arbor to feed to Natural Order. The most problematic creatures of theirs are Heritage Druid and Wirewood Symbionte, but once you kill them, Elves suddenly get left behind. Summa summarum, as long as you prioritize your targets, are not afraid to lose some extra life in the process (let them beat you with some less relevant creatures in order to deal with the more threatening ones that may soon appear on the battlefield) and have some relevant cards in your sideboard, you should be fine.

I recently top 8ed a SCG IQ with Punshing Jund (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=78406). I have a few notes from the day as well as some of by sideboarding decisions if people are interested.

My only losses all day, one in swiss and in the top 8 were to elves. I think that the sideboard advice that DOM provided is fairly accurate. I left in Bloodbraid Elf during my sideboarded games and found them to be way too slow. Against one of the elves player I was able to get a turn one Grafdiggers cage, but still ended up dying to a pair of Deathrite Shamans that were being untapped by Wirewood Symbiotes.

[razvan]

Congrats Scott. I would love to hear your thoughts and notes. Err... *read* not *hear*.

[ironclad8690]

Yeah, I would like to read your notes as well.

How did the Jund Charm in your SB work out for you?

[skyout]

Here is my writeup about my SCQ IQ top 8 I had mentioned previously:

Round 1: U/G Infect (2-1)

This matchup really is fairly favorable for Jund, however you just need to sandbag your removal spells for the correct time because they can kill you out of nowhere.

Game 1: Won this matchup with a Deathrite Shaman powered turn two Liliana getting his Noble Hierarch, followed up by using Punshing Fire to 1 for 1 his subsequent infectors.

Game 2: I was able to get him down fairly low, but didn't see a punishing fire during this game. He ended up killing me a turn before I could kill him with a Inkmoth Nexus that lived through a lightning bolt with Become Immense and Invigorate.

Game 3: On the play, I was able to get a quick start with a Tarmogoyf and one for one his infectors with Abrupt Decay and Lightning Bolt.

1-0


Round 2: Elves (0-2)

Game 1: He was on the play and got a very quick turn three glimpse turn before I was able to really even get online.

Game 2: I was able to get out a turn one Grafdigger's Cage, but was unable to get the Punshing Fire engine online through his two Deathrite Shamans. That combined with a few Wirewood Symbiotes were enough to get the job done.

1-1

Round 3: Affinity (2-0)

Punshing Fire really make this matchup very favorable. The key to this matchup is to ignore the cranial plating and any other artifacts and just kill each creature as they play it.

Game 1: During this game I was able to successfully one for one all of his threats with Punshing Fire and Abrupt Decay and kill him with Bloodbraid Elf into Tarmogoyf.

Game 2: This was one of the most interesting games of the day. He was able to get out most of his hand during his first turn. He quickly played a Memnite, Vault Skirge, with and a Master of etherium the next turn. While I was only able to get out a Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf out to help control his attackers. On the next turn he was able to get out a Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas, which was very bad for us. He plused Tezzeret over the next two turns, getting into play more threats including a Cranial Plating. He ended up ultimating his Tezzeret which put me down to 3 life, he was hoping to have the next Bob flip kill me. My Bob ended up flipping up a Deathrite Shaman, which was the perfect card for the situation. I played the Deathrite Shaman and over the next few turns was able to flip favorably while gaining two life during my upkeep to stay alive. This is where the card advantage of Bob took over and I was able to play multiple threats, kill his creatures, and finally ended it with giant Tarmogoyfs.

2-1

Round 4: UWr Miracles (1-0-1)

This is one of the most grindy matchups in all of Legacy. To be honest if you can just focus on winning game one it may just be good enough to win the match 1-0-1. Sylvan Library is one of the best cards in this match up, it really allows you to cycle through so many cards and find the key ones.

Game 1: I won this game on the back of Liliana of the Veil. I exhausted all of his counters with my threats like Deathrite and Tarmogoyf that he had to answer. Once he was in top deck mode I was able to stick a Liliana of the Veil and have her go ultimate. However, even that usually isn't enough to win the game because they typically have a pretty robust board position with many of each land type. Abrupt Decay was able to handle his Counterbalance and I was able to win off a Tarmogoyf that he couldn't find an answer for.

Game 2: By the time the first game was done we had about twenty minutes left in the round. The second game was equally as grindy, though I was again able to disrupt his Counterbalance package with Abrupt Decay and tag his top with my Krosan Grip. He resolved a Jace, the Mind Sculptor and was ticking it up, hoping to be able to force a game three. I was able to hold back the Jace with Punishing Fire long enough to stick my own Liliana and go ultimate with her. Again, the problem with Liliana here is that even with her going ultimate it isn't a guaranteed win, however I did make him sacrifice his Jace to the two piles. He eventually found entreat, however misplayed and had to cast it during his turn. I had been sandbagging a Toxic Deluge for a while and wiped his board, however I was able to kill him before time ran out.

3-1

Round 5: BUG Delver (2-0)

My opponent was a guy that I have play a few times at my LGS, so I knew he was on BUG Delver. This matchup is also fairly back-and-forth, however Punshing Fire can really steal a win.

Game 1: Game one was actually quite quick, I was able to get the Punishing Fire engine online and end the game rather quickly.

Game 2: This game took quite a bit longer than the first. We had a bit of back and forth between his two Delvers and some of my removal spells. Eventually we got to a locked board state where he had a Tarmogoyf and a True-Name Nemesis and I had a fairly large Scavenging Ooze and two Tarmogofys. What ended up breaking the stalemate was when he Abrupt Decayed my Sylvan Library leaving an opening for me to play my Liliana. The Liliana ended up taking out a second True-Name Nemesis he played in combination with Punishing Fire to attack into his Tarmogoyfs with my own. The Ooze here was fantastic at keeping him off of Treasure Cruise which kept his card advantage in check.

4-1

Round 6: Elves (ID)

We both looked at the standings and were able to draw into the top 8.

4-1-1

TOP 8:

Everyone in the top 8 ended up splitting the prizes and then playing for the Invitation. This was the same Elves player that I had drawn with to get into the top 8. I had watch him play a bit and knew that he was on a fairly traditional build of Elves.

Game 1: This game was very similar to my other match against Elves. I had a fairly well paced setup, but he was able to have a pretty big turn four and go off with a Craterhoof Behemoth.

Game: 2: I may a very egregious misplay in this match which definitely cost me the game. On turn four he cast a glimpse with a pretty modest board presence. I left him resolve it with a Surgical Extraction in hand. However, what I didn't know was the fact that he would draw a second one. He ended up casting the second one and by then it was too late. I ended up casting the Surgical on the Glimpse in hope of him bricking. Oddly enough he actually did end up bricking because he didn't find any of his Nettle Sentinels. This gave me an opening on the following turn to cast my Golgari Charm and a Jund Charm the next turn. However, he was able to bounce the majority of his important cards to save them. The next turn he was able to hardcast a Craterhoof Behemoth and that was the end of my tournament.


Final Thoughts:

Before the tournament I had put the Jund Charm in my sideboard, because I was going into a relatively unknown meta and thought that this card was fairly versitile. However Jund Charm was sort of a let down and I think I would have preferred to have something like Pithing Needle or a second Sylvan Library there. I would say that the Punishing Fire engine was the reason for winning the majority of the matches. It was able to kill opposing infectors, delvers, and even managing to keep a JTMS from going ultimate.

[Nuke is Good]

With TC banned discard is more viable again. I have a bad feeling UWR Delver is going to be popular and that is a rather miserable matchup for me in Reanimator. So I might as well get some experience with good ol' Jund again. The problem is nothing really new has been printed to help strengthen the deck. The list I've been using has been largely unchanged since TNN's printing where I added Imperial Edict.

[ironclad8690]

yep, with more uwr we are looking better. with rug back on top some of our degenerate adversaries will have to go back from whence they came, tilting the field in our favor. also ur was a pain, I am happy with todays news.

Sent from my KFARWI using Forum Fiend v1.2.14.

[razvan]

I still maintain Treasure Cruise was never a problem for Jund. This changes the format significantly, but I don't think it will elevate or deflate Jund in any significant way.

I *think*. I could be wrong, and often am.

ps: Worldgorger Dragon being unbanned is funny for this thread.

Deathrite Shaman. Good game.

[sdematt]

And if youre playing the 1-of Ooze its even worse. Or decay should be able to break it up.

[DudeItsCorey]

I still maintain Treasure Cruise was never a problem for Jund. This changes the format significantly, but I don't think it will elevate or deflate Jund in any significant way.

I *think*. I could be wrong, and often am.


I believe that the power level of Hymn and Liliana increase significantly which is good for Jund. However, if Miracles returns as the Top Deck, then it probably doesn't do much for Jund's standings. We will just have to see how the Meta shifts post Treasure Cruise.

[skyout]

I believe that the power level of Hymn and Liliana increase significantly which is good for Jund. However, if Miracles returns as the Top Deck, then it probably doesn't do much for Jund's standings. We will just have to see how the Meta shifts post Treasure Cruise.

I think that the matchup for Miracles isn't terrible for Jund, however with the decrease of Delver strategies combo will probably make a comeback. The downside for that is fewer decks for us to prey upon. The upside, like you said, is that discard in the form of Liliana and Hymn are very good again. I think the meta will probably be fairly similar to the meta prior to Khans.

[ironclad8690]

I think that the matchup for Miracles isn't terrible for Jund, however with the decrease of Delver strategies combo will probably make a comeback. The downside for that is fewer decks for us to prey upon. The upside, like you said, is that discard in the form of Liliana and Hymn are very good again. I think the meta will probably be fairly similar to the meta prior to Khans.

It is interesting that you feel that way, I feel as though combo had a resurgence due to UR Delver being weak to it. Now that all of the UWRs/BUGs/RUGs are going to be packing spell pierce again, I think it will actually suppress combo somewhat. That being said, we will have to see.

I am personally excited to not have to worry about delver drawing 3 out of the blue anymore.

[Nuke is Good]

I'm trying to dust off Jund but I haven't changed the decklist since almost June of last year. So I tried making changes in anticipation for the post Khans meta. UWR Delver is coming back so I expect Misty into Batterskull. The D&T guy is back playing death and taxes so plague is in again, but I'm not too fond of the card. Is engineered plague good in other matchups? Merfolk and Goblins don't exist in my meta and I'm considering running Dread of Night instead, so my Dark Confidants can live through the hate.

Goblin Rabblemaster right now is a one of testing card.



Main Deck (60)
Creatures (16)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Bloodbraid Elf
Spells (21)
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (23)
1 Forest
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
3 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
Sideboard (15)
1 Extirpate
1 Pyroblast
2 Pithing Needle
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Golgari Charm
1 Imperial Edict
1 Life from the Loam
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Engineered Plague
2 Pernicious Deed

[skyout]

It is interesting that you feel that way, I feel as though combo had a resurgence due to UR Delver being weak to it. Now that all of the UWRs/BUGs/RUGs are going to be packing spell pierce again, I think it will actually suppress combo somewhat. That being said, we will have to see.

I am personally excited to not have to worry about delver drawing 3 out of the blue anymore.

You are probably correct, my view may be more skewed by my local meta than anything else. There is a ton of combo, especially elves and storm, therefore when I see fair decks where I'm not a huge underdog I feel pretty confidant.

[ironclad8690]

I'm trying to dust off Jund but I haven't changed the decklist since almost June of last year. So I tried making changes in anticipation for the post Khans meta. UWR Delver is coming back so I expect Misty into Batterskull. The D&T guy is back playing death and taxes so plague is in again, but I'm not too fond of the card. Is engineered plague good in other matchups? Merfolk and Goblins don't exist in my meta and I'm considering running Dread of Night instead, so my Dark Confidants can live through the hate.

Goblin Rabblemaster right now is a one of testing card.



Main Deck (60)
Creatures (16)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Bloodbraid Elf
Spells (21)
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (23)
1 Forest
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
3 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
Sideboard (15)
1 Extirpate
1 Pyroblast
2 Pithing Needle
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Golgari Charm
1 Imperial Edict
1 Life from the Loam
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Engineered Plague
2 Pernicious Deed

Regarding plague, it saves my ass against elves very frequently. I have almost debated dropping g charm just to have access to 3 in my board, but I cant bring myself to do it. Now with Young Pyromancer and Monastery Mentor though, I have even more reason to run plague which doesnt get blown out by any spells (as in the case of prowess and g charm)

[GhostEmpire]

Has anyone seen this? I've tried it a few times, it's not bad.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Stoneforge Mystic
[16]

3 Liliana of the Veil
[3]

1 Batterskull
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
1 Pyroblast
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Lingering Souls
4 Thoughtseize
[18]


1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Arid Mesa
2 Badlands
1 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plateau
3 Scrubland
1 Karakas
[23]

Sideboard:
1 Pithing Needle
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Engineered Plague
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Wear
2 Slaughter Games

[jungleman3955]

So while treasure was legal I dropped BBE from the deck to lower the curve and negate some of the life loss with bob and used Goblin Rabblemaster in BBE's place. I switched back to BBE recently but I gotta say I think I prefer the Goblin as he just closes a game so damn quick once you get an opponent on top deck mode. Also I still get those moments where BBE sits there in hand uselessly so I'm probably going to proceed with the rabblemaster from here on out. Here is the decklist I am currently running:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Goblin Rabblemaster

4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sylvan Library

3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland

1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Engineered Plague
1 Golgari Charm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Choke
1 Krosan Grip
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Extirpate

[sdematt]

I'll be trying this in the coming weeks:

SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge

2 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf

2 Toxic Deluge
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sylvan Library
3 Hymn to Tourach

3 Thoughtseize
3 Punishing Fire
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
3 Badlands
3 Wasteland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Swamp

[hovercraft]

Has anyone ever toyed with Bind in Jund? I had never realized there was a green squelch. Could definitely catch people off guard with it on fetchlands and such, but it's probably just gimmicky

[ironclad8690]

Has anyone ever toyed with Bind in Jund? I had never realized there was a green squelch. Could definitely catch people off guard with it on fetchlands and such, but it's probably just gimmicky

I always wanted to try it, but it doesn't really synergize with Elf and I love Elf way too much to cut it. I know people have been stoked on Rabblemaster lately, but I still stand by BBE.

[jungleman3955]

Teusday night legacy report at my local game store.

Round 1 vs. UWR Delver
Against any fair blue deck the game basically comes down to whether or not they can draw TNN and whether or not I have a way to remove it as its almost impossible for them to stick anything. Game 1 was a bit blurry, I remember him dazing a bob, swording a drs and then bolting a liliana after i made him sac a batterskull token. He resolves a TNN and I resolve one of the two remaining liliana's in my hand to make him sac it. I think I eventually close the game out with Goblin Rabblemaster. I side out 2 bolts, 1 pfire, 1 bob and 2 hymns for 1 pyroblast, 1 REB, 1 golgari charm, 1 Krosan grip, 1 ancient grudge and 1 chains of mephistopheles. Game 2 I suspect he isn't very experienced against jund(or maybe legacy) as he starts wastelanding a bayou and a badlands which imo isn't very smart as jund is very land heavy for a legacy deck and he wasn't aiming them at groves. Its very difficult to mana deny jund and the only deck that should try mana denial against jund is a loam deck like lands I feel. I resolve sylvan library on turn 3-4 and proceed to start grinding him down. He doesn't play much for the first 5 turns or so, so I suspect he has a very reactive hand which liliana discards confirms. I pay 8 life with library at one point going down to 8 trying to look for a way to close the game as he took out my first early threats. I eventually end the game at 1 life via 2 bolts from him and a fetchland from me. I had lili ulted him twice trying to get him off of red so he couldnnt kill me. I win the game with me with a handful of cards at 1 life and him with no cards in hand with a single volcanic island in play. So satisfying. MVP card in this MU: Liliana, 2-0

Round 2 vs. punishing jund
Game 1, I groan when he opens with bayou drs as I feel my biggest modification of jund (swapping BBE for goblin rabblemaster) makes me vulnerable in the mirror as the tempo from BBE should be strong and rabble dies to everything in jund's arsenal. This game is very long and let me tell you it isn't fun. Punishing jund mirror is the grindiest affair in the world b/c nothing lives and the only way to get damage across is who can pfire harder which takes a loooooong time. I don't remember these long drawn out games but I win both of them b/c I feel I prioritized my spells better than him. You should be very very judicious in your use of abrupt decay as pfire wont kill goyf and decay is the only way of removing the best card in the MU in sylvan library. Also again, another opponent using wasteland on non-grove lands which cost him in the end as it allowed me to pfire harder. I remember explicitly topdecking my first wasteland when he had 3 groves and 3 other lands in play and thought seriously on wasting his singleton badlands but I was rewarded richly by being disciplined enough to wasteland his grove b/c the game is going to go long and you will eventually draw the other wastelands (which i did). Jund SBs aren't geared for the mirror so the only thing to bring in from both sides is extirpate and maybe golgari charm/krosan grip for library to free up decay to go after something other than goyf/lili/library. Surprisingly Goblin Rabblemaster proved much more effective than I thought as the tokens constantly sneak in dmg as rabble allows you to go a little wider in the MU. Afterwards we both talk about our configurations and we both are displeased with BBE's performance in the deck as he is just too slow and not really needed for CA as jund is a 2 for 1 machine already. I mention to him how rabble has been excellent for me in place of BBE as he closes a game very fast for a fair deck and isn't effected by gy hate. MVP card in this MU: Sylvan Library, 2-0

Round 3 vs punishing jund...again
I groan as I realize I'm facing the mirror again. I end up steam rolling this kid b/c he's doing all the wrong things I mentioned earlier, wasting non-grove lands, decay on something other than goyf/library. I figured he went undefeated by just facing delver twice in a row or something but his prioritizing removal wrong cost him and I take advantage of that. MVP card in this MU: Wasteland, 2-0

3-0 which I'm happy with as this is the 4th week in a row that I've gone at least 2-1 with punishing jund. Deck list below

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Punishing Fire
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sylvan Library
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland

1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Engineered Plague
1 Golgari Charm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Choke
1 Krosan Grip
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Extirpate

Considering dropping Choke as all it makes a blue opponent do is stop casting cantrips until they draw there TNN/Show and Tell/JTMS and chains is just better at stopping cantrips. Considering a 3rd Extirpate as that card is just soo good at what jund is weak to, grindier decks than jund like lands and combo decks.

[hovercraft]

I always wanted to try it, but it doesn't really synergize with Elf and I love Elf way too much to cut it. I know people have been stoked on Rabblemaster lately, but I still stand by BBE.

I might try it with Elf anyway. I play a couple Mirri's Guile/Sylvan Library so that should help with Elfness. My Jund list is already odd since I don't have groves and I sold my goyfs for a car bill :rolleyes: . Might as well keep experimenting

[Whitefaces]

I think the argument for BBE over Rabblemaster is that the elf can do much more unfair things, and dig you out of holes.

I was playing vs Jund last night with Shardless.

My board: Goyf, Jitte, Jace on 2 and Lili on 2.

Him: Empty board and hand. BBE -> Decay for the goyf, kill jace. I'm forced to sac the lili to kill the elf as I draw a land for the turn. That's a mighty big hole to dig out of!

[hovercraft]

I think the argument for BBE over Rabblemaster is that the elf can do much more unfair things, and dig you out of holes.

I was playing vs Jund last night with Shardless.

My board: Goyf, Jitte, Jace on 2 and Lili on 2.

Him: Empty board and hand. BBE -> Decay for the goyf, kill jace. I'm forced to sac the lili to kill the elf as I draw a land for the turn. That's a mighty big hole to dig out of!

I have a 4 colour cascade deck that plays kinda like Jund/Shardless but with both BBE and SA. Everyone once in awhile you live the dream of BBE->Shardless->Goyf/Decay/etc. Feels great.

[ironclad8690]

BBE was one of the biggest factors that attracted me to Jund in the first place.

That and the fact that it looked a lot like a Big Zoo deck that stood more than a ghost of a chance against combo.

I will say that rabble is great at closing games out quickly, but the anti synergy with g charm and needing to cut BBE makes me shy away from him.

Sent from my KFARWI using Forum Fiend v1.2.14.

[Nuke is Good]

BBE was one of the biggest factors that attracted me to Jund in the first place.

That and the fact that it looked a lot like a Big Zoo deck that stood more than a ghost of a chance against combo.

I will say that rabble is great at closing games out quickly, but the anti synergy with g charm and needing to cut BBE makes me shy away from him.

Sent from my KFARWI using Forum Fiend v1.2.14.

In my Meta Jace The Wallet Sculptor is still a thing. So BBE puts that guy in check. If I had SB slots I'd switch out BBE for Rabblemaster in matchups were speed is key. But without BBE I can't call the deck Jund anymore.

[jungleman3955]

No doubt BBE is good, that's why jund played him in the first place. I switched to rabble for a few reasons 1) he ends games quicker on empty boards (which as you know playing jund, it's not too difficult to keep a board clear) 2) he's easier to cast. I believe the biggest incentive to playing BBE is CA. He provides an extra card on being cast, sometimes it blows a game open, sometimes it does nothing. But looking at the deck as a whole, jund is filled with CA engines, lili, bob, pfire, hymn, library, etc. From my experience, rabble's easier casting cost and faster closing speed has been more valuable than BBE's CA. This has been my observation and so far rabble has been pretty excellent. Now I'm not saying he's better than BBE but I feel within a jund shell he so far has been more valuable, to me at least, b/c BBE's CA isn't as powerful when the rest of the shell has already put you up on cards.

[Nuke is Good]

No doubt BBE is good, that's why jund played him in the first place. I switched to rabble for a few reasons 1) he ends games quicker on empty boards (which as you know playing jund, it's not too difficult to keep a board clear) 2) he's easier to cast. I believe the biggest incentive to playing BBE is CA. He provides an extra card on being cast, sometimes it blows a game open, sometimes it does nothing. But looking at the deck as a whole, jund is filled with CA engines, lili, bob, pfire, hymn, library, etc. From my experience, rabble's easier casting cost and faster closing speed has been more valuable than BBE's CA. This has been my observation and so far rabble has been pretty excellent. Now I'm not saying he's better than BBE but I feel within a jund shell he so far has been more valuable, to me at least, b/c BBE's CA isn't as powerful when the rest of the shell has already put you up on cards.

Rabblemaster was weak for me when U/R Delver was around due to the prevalence of sweepers. It'll be worth looking at again due to TC's banning and U/R going back to the fringe. Though the thought of dealing with burn again is not a pleasant thought.

[hovercraft]

I've been toying with 2x Blightning again, for BBE's old cascade friend. I think they could be worth playing right now

[ironclad8690]

I really like marsh casualties out of Jim Davis's BUG deck last weekend:

Punishing Jund

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach

3 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Liliana of the Veil

1 Sylvan Library

2 Bayou
3 Badlands
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
2 Marsh Casualties
1 Engineered Plague
2 Pyroblast
1 Choke
2 Duress
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage

This is what I will be testing until the SCG 5k in LA

[Rizso]

Both Courser and Tasigur looks really solid choices for jund instead of Bloodbraid atm. Both cards can give a solid card advantech and survive Lightning Bolt.

[ironclad8690]

I agree, I am just trying to figure out if I want to keep playing punishing fire which is a nonbo with delve or switch to bolts like the original jund lists. I am still leaning towards p fire though.

[Rizso]

There is enough stuff that going into the graveyard. Punishing Fire has advantech it can be returned from the GY before activations of Taisgur.

[jraniga]

Played in a staples tournament yesterday at Knightware LA, 42 ish players.

I run a very stock list with 23 lands (3 wastes), 3 BBE, 3 hymn, 4 fires, 4 decays, 2 library and 1 bolt.

R1; vs a Junk list (Robert). I haven't played many tournaments in LA but I always seem to play Rob either in the first or second round every time. The matchup is pretty good with the only issue being Souls or as usual an SFM that's not killed on sight. Game 2 on the draw I keep a hand of DRS x2 and thought seize and he seizes my thought seize. I play out 2 DRS over the next turns and draw land and BBE. He IOK's me to see land and BBE and he has no pressure. BBE gets a goyf and that's enough pressure over a few turns to win it. 2-0 (1-0)

R2; vs UWR miracles (Danny). He mulls game one and keeps a non basic heavy hand with cantrips. I draw 2 wastes and the tempo is enough to keep him on the back foot. Don't remember much of the second game apart from he cast 6 mana Elspeth but I had deed to kill the tokens and attack Elspeth with goyf. 2-0 (2-0) After the game we enter into an animated discussion about Vintage, Danny being the animated one. A very nice guy.

R3; vs Esper Stoneblade (Randy a good friend of mine). We both know what we are on as he showed me his list before the tournament and he knows I'm always playing Jund. G1 he has 2 SFMs which I kill but I don't have much pressure and my Bobs are plowed and my library countered. Lingering souls and pressure from a clique wins him the game. G2 I mull to 5 and keep an ok hand but I'm not feeling confidant. He keeps a cantrip heavy hand which allows me time to draw out of the mull and put on some pressure. He keeps cantripping and shuffling but doesn't find answers (he later told me he kept draw his one off sideboard disenchant of every brainstorm). In game 3 I have the fire lock but make a grave mistake of fetching on my end step to thin which lets him clique away my fire. We run out of time regardless and its a draw 1-1 (2-0-1)

R4; vs mono red sneak attack. I am assuming this is the sneak attack version of the deck even though I didn't't see any sneak attacks, it may just be a variant. G1 on the play I keep a hand of goyf, 2 Hymns, fire and 3 lands (inc grove). He mulls to 6. I play a fetch and he plays chalice of a ancient tomb. I hymn away another tomb and trinishpere. He has no turn 2 play and I hymn away a chrome mox and something else. Goyf gets him very low on life and he eventually plays a skull but takes 4 damage of tombs. I decay the token and win. G2 he mulls to 6 again and plays mountain. I thoughtseize seeing inferno titan, batterskull, seething song and mountains. I take the song and play a goyf. I have no other pressure and he chalices for one next turn. He eventually gets to 5 mana of COT and plays skull, I decay the token and waste the COT. I keep him off 5 mana of wastes but he tormods crypts me to make goyf small, I also add BBE which finds a bob. I decay the chalice to try and get some damage in but he chaos warps the chalice and gets a koth of the top. The koth lets him cast titan next turn killing most of my board, I suicide to kill the koth and deed away the titan. From there he is stuck on 3 mana and I win. 2-0 (3-0-1)

R5; vs miracles. Don't recall much about this game but Lili wins me game 1, entreat wins game 2 after pressure from a clique and deed wins me game 3 by killings 3 angels and lili takes care of the rest. This was the ponder version with lots of snaps.

R6; ID with infect. Finish second on the standings.

Top 8; vs miracles. My hymn gets pierced and so does my lili, but I have a second one waiting. It gets to work while I have grove and fire to discard each turn. He scoops with Lili about to ulti. G2 I thoughtseize him on the draw and see a hand with 2 SFM, SOFaF, Jace, DTT and something else not castable. I take an SFM as he is a long way from casting anything else. He finds land for SFM which I kill with decay then finds top and counterbalance. I decay the balance and land a library and liliana. I don't find threats for a while and he develops his mana with top. I eventually have goyf and DRS but he lands a RIP. I keep attacking with my squire elf and tick up lili. He councils judgements it but I was floating one on top with library. That lands but I still am not killing him fast enough. I find a needle and he activates top but I still name it even though he has jace in hand. He discards top to Lili but still doesn't cast jace. I thoughtseize next turn to see jace, TNN and skull and take jace. I see BBE and lili with library after a shuffle and decide to ulti my lili on board. He scoops to the BBE and lili revealed.

We split the top 4 and I get a tundra. It was good playing legacy after a while, haven't played much since GPNJ.

[iamajellydonut]

He IOK's me to see land and BBE and he has no pressure.

I mean, Inquisition of Kozilek is basically Thoughtseize. Right, guys?

Seriously, though, nice showing.

[tescrin]

I've been toying with 2x Blightning again, for BBE's old cascade friend. I think they could be worth playing right now

I've used blightning a bit before (mostly when I was toying with YP and wanted more sorceries) and it's pretty sweet when the opponent drops lily (or another walker) and you get a 3-for-1.

If going that route you need a lot of pressure though IMO, as normally you're just bolting them and going for hellbent. This means it's worse in the long game (discard) and is good in the short game (burn.) I'd consider going Goyf + 2 Tasigur (or rabblemaster) if experimenting with Blightning; probably dropping Lily for straight aggro rather than controlling. This would logically move Pfires to something too I guess.

[iamajellydonut]

probably dropping Lily for straight aggro rather than controlling. This would logically move Pfires to something too I guess.

I'm intrigued by Blightning to the point where I might throw a list together later for shits and see how it rolls, but I definitely agree with this line of text. If you went with Blightning, you'd have to dedicate to the Blightning plan. It's just too much of an all-in card not to. No Punishing Fires. No or less Lilianas. I'd even go so far as to say that Thoughtseize would have to try to be something else. Otherwise you'd be flip-flopping between winning the game and stalling with every draw.

[Neffy]

I think that tasigur sounds interesting for our deck - I will borrow one and test him tonight.
I do think that he will require us to run more green (basically more bayous than 2) to use his ability consistently. This also helps casting Courser if one is using that guy too.
Could grim lavamancer and tasigur play along? Removing the stuff with GL you dont want to retrive with Tas?


I dont know about blightning. I get how powerful it can become, but removing p.fire reduces our efficiency against creature based decks such BUG, maverick and esper. On the other hand not running p.fires makes basic mountain and taiga a reality (stabilising manabase).

[hovercraft]

I've used blightning a bit before (mostly when I was toying with YP and wanted more sorceries) and it's pretty sweet when the opponent drops lily (or another walker) and you get a 3-for-1.

If going that route you need a lot of pressure though IMO, as normally you're just bolting them and going for hellbent. This means it's worse in the long game (discard) and is good in the short game (burn.) I'd consider going Goyf + 2 Tasigur (or rabblemaster) if experimenting with Blightning; probably dropping Lily for straight aggro rather than controlling. This would logically move Pfires to something too I guess.

Yeah I am actually using it with YP as well. Trying out Cabal Therapy too, since it synergizes with YP (I sold my goyfs for a car bill.....)

[iamajellydonut]

I dont know about blightning. I get how powerful it can become, but removing p.fire reduces our efficiency against creature based decks such BUG, maverick and esper. On the other hand not running p.fires makes basic mountain and taiga a reality (stabilising manabase).

Meh, I threw together a Blightning list last night for kicks. The results are totally inconclusive of course (a few randoms on The Cock.de doesn't mean dick), but at the very least I can say that it holds its own, loses to combo, and its straight gameplan makes the deck more consistent. Basically "kill everything until you stick a creature and roll". Three Eidolon definitely would be safer, but thankfully I didn't run into a problem last night. I forget whether it was three or four Blightnings. The sideboard was more or less your standard Jund jumble plus a few Thoughtseizes. I miss Liliana.

24*Land
1*Forest
2*Swamp
4*Badlands
4*Bayou
4*Polluted Delta
4*Verdant Catacombs
4*Wasteland
1*Wooded Foothills

19*Creatures
4*Dark Confidant
1*Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4*Eidolon of the Great Revel
2*Tarmogoyf
4*Bloodbraid Elf
4*Deathrite Shaman

17*Other Spells
1*Geth's Verdict
1*Liliana of the Veil
4*Lightning Bolt
1*Searing Blood
1*Sylvan Library
3*Abrupt Decay
3-4*Blightning
1*Golgari Charm
1*Maelstrom Pulse
0-1*???

[skyout]

Meh, I threw together a Blightning list last night for kicks. The results are totally inconclusive of course (a few randoms on The Cock.de doesn't mean dick), but at the very least I can say that it holds its own, loses to combo, and its straight gameplan makes the deck more consistent. Basically "kill everything until you stick a creature and roll". Three Eidolon definitely would be safer, but thankfully I didn't run into a problem last night. I forget whether it was three or four Blightnings. The sideboard was more or less your standard Jund jumble plus a few Thoughtseizes. I miss Liliana.

24*Land
1*Forest
2*Swamp
4*Badlands
4*Bayou
4*Polluted Delta
4*Verdant Catacombs
4*Wasteland
1*Wooded Foothills

19*Creatures
4*Dark Confidant
1*Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4*Eidolon of the Great Revel
2*Tarmogoyf
4*Bloodbraid Elf
4*Deathrite Shaman

17*Other Spells
1*Geth's Verdict
1*Liliana of the Veil
4*Lightning Bolt
1*Searing Blood
1*Sylvan Library
3*Abrupt Decay
3-4*Blightning
1*Golgari Charm
1*Maelstrom Pulse
0-1*???

We all have very fond memories of Jund when shards was around, however I think the punishing fire engine is still strictly better.

[iamajellydonut]

We all have very fond memories of Jund when shards was around, however I think the punishing fire engine is still strictly better.

Oh, yeah, no. Punishing Fire or no Punishing Fire, I'm not advising that you drop what you're doing and max out on this shit mix of cards by any means. I just thought it was fun and dumb and I might actually pack it to a weekly sometime if I can fine tune it because I like awful decks.

[ironclad8690]

Went 6-0 in games last night at my weekly local tournament.

Patriot Delver 2-0

BUG Delver 2-0

UWr Stoneblade 2-0

a perfect night for Jund.

[sdematt]

Nice matchup lineup :p

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

@ironclad8690 - the decklist you played was the same as you posted last week?

[ironclad8690]

It was almost the same, I switched out Marsh Casualties for Golgari Charm, and I didn't have Chains of Mephistopheles available to me so I replaced that with a Hymn to Tourach.

[Nuke is Good]

I went 3-0-1 at a playgroup at my friend's university that were playing for some packs.

2-0 Burn BBE flipping Jitte on Game 1 was so amazing. I just drew answers the whole game and I kept my thoughtseizes in the board, I was able to discard PoP's and flame rifts saving me life.
2-1 Elves I FINALLY GOT TO USE WALLET OF MEPHISTOPHELES HERE YAY! I crapped on the poor guy's glimpse and visionary draw engine. He ended up milling his natural order after I stripped his hand silly and scopped on game 3.
1-1-1 Some weird ass B/R Lands Deck. All I know is I got hit with board wipes in the form of devestating dreams while elemental Tokens from Titania were beating on me. On game 3 he attempted to do the Thespian Stage/Dark Depths Combo twice but the first time I was able to -2 Liliana to sac the first Marit Lage token. The second time he tried to do it I managed to stall a turn by casting a 2nd Liliana and having enough counters for a -2. It ended on turns but left to think what was I playing, it didn't seem like a normal lands deck.

[Neffy]

I went to a 40man tournament yesterday and went 4-2 with my Jund deck. Things actually went pretty well, but I was unlucky to meet some of the worst matchups out there.
A short brief:

2-1 vs. Spanish Inquisition (yaack!)
G1 I establisk solid DRS and Goft and begins beats but he combos off.. G2 I mull to to 4 (Opening 7 = zero lands, first mulligan = 1 land, only goyfs, second mulligan =1 land, 1 Seize and some uselessness, third mulligan=1 land, 1 seize, 1 surgical extraction and something else). I keep and begins establishing board. He combos off but miscaluates and the surgical on cabal therapy helped. Game 3 he plays triple Bargains and end on 2 life. I have an active DRS.

2-0 vs. miracles
This was brutal. I am also of the belief that this is a good matchup. I go T1 seize and see 3 lands, top, 2 STP, DTT. I take top and he goes land go. I have DRS, Bob and Tasigur in hand as well as a Hymn and some fetches. T2 I hymn him off his two lands and this means victory. Next i bait his STPs on my DRS and Bob and gets Tassi online, with an EOT activation: I left hymn in the yard and mills a land and another hymn. Muaha. I get the ´hymn back and destroys the remainder of his hand. Tassi kills him.
In G2 he goes mainstep DTT and then a RIP. People usually takes out FOW against us so I just slam a choke on his 4 tapped islands. He goes plains, top. I go null rod.. We proceed drawing nothing but lands each until evidently I draw bob and lily and take him out. Nastyness..!

1-2 vs. MUD
This matchup sucks. He lands Wurmcoil which is the worst and I die. G2 I go turn 1 DRS, he goes tapped land, go. I slam a hymn and get wurmcoil and lodestone. pretty nice. He goes goes monolith, go. I cast a second hymn getting Ugin planeswalker and that infect colossus. He still doesnt play much. In my hand are now 3 Lilianas and I drop 1 and ultimate with her a few turns later, quickly followed by a second one. He never gets anything going.
The last game was like the first. He curves nicely out with T1 needle on wasteland (aww.. had 1 in a bad 7 card hand), turn 2 grim and trinisphere. Then wurmcoil... Then a second wurmcoil. Then the golem that maintains a fixed life total... Autoloss..

1-2 vs. Burn
I choose not to fetch a basic but rather a badlands to eventually bolt an Eidolon EOT. he goes exactly Eidolon and i happily remove it. Later BBE into Goyf and gets him down till 'next turn attack for lethal'. He goes price+rift for 12 damage. Probably should have kept the wasteland untapped in hindsight..
G2 he mulls to 4 and draws only lands and have to remove my goyf at some point. I kill him quickly with active DRS.
G3 is fast Goblin guide, sulfuric vortex and remove 2 of my DRS's :( I have no chance here..

2-1 vs. Grixis delver
I lose game 1 on a nasty YP and Therapy combo that rips my hand. He has stifle and dazes too.. G2 I sweep his board multiple times with Charm or Deluge. Win with double DRS. G3 double sweeps and fast goyfs.

2-1 (he concedes beforehand since he has to leave, nice guy) vs. BUG
A normally awesome matchup but he kept me off mana in the 'for-fun' games and stifle, etc. does what it do best. Most of these games I lost due to poor drawing :(


MVP this tourny: Hymn. Tassi was so much fun although i only saw him a few times. If the deck packs enough nastyness like hymn and pulse i think he is fine as a 1-of in the deck.

My lists were:
3 BBE
3 Bob
4 Goyf
4 DRS
1 Tassi
3 Bolt
3 P.fire
4 Decay
1 Pulse
3 Liliana
1 Sylvan
3 hymn
4 Thoughtseize
23 lands (standard)

SB:
2 Toxic D.
2 G. Charm
2 Ancient grudge (not much miracle so i excluded the krosan)
1 slaughter games
2 surgical extraction
1 chains of meph.
2 Pyroblast (better than REB with Tassi)
1 Choke
1 Null Rod
and something i forgot...

How do you people fight MUD and burn? We have so much MUD here in my LGSs... Jitte for burn?
Possible MUD hate cards (aside from krosan, grudge and creeping corrosion): seeds of innocense, pulverize, scrapmaster, shatterstorm,
Possible burn hate cards: jitte, bow of nylea, ooze,

Thanks

[litenkatt]

Hello!

So here' my story: I used to play jund/junk/maverick/d&t back in 2013/2012 and I loved playing those decks; decks without blue. I never really played blue decks in legacy, mainly because I don't have any blue fetches or duals. However, early 2014 I acquired all the nessecary fetch and duals to build delver decks etc and I've been playing various combinations of that since.

Now I've realized that I don't actually like blue as much as I thought I did. Drawing cards is nice and all, and having counters, but I seem to prefer these kind of decks still. Lately I've been into returning to this archetype. I know treasure cruise was giving us a hard time, which was one reason I kept playing blue. But now when it's gone, I feel much more inclined to return.

So after browsing decks that have done well, I've noticed BBE seems to get the cut nowdays. Example: http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/176727, http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/102736

Why is that?

[ironclad8690]

Hello!

So here' my story: I used to play jund/junk/maverick/d&t back in 2013/2012 and I loved playing those decks; decks without blue. I never really played blue decks in legacy, mainly because I don't have any blue fetches or duals. However, early 2014 I acquired all the nessecary fetch and duals to build delver decks etc and I've been playing various combinations of that since.

Now I've realized that I don't actually like blue as much as I thought I did. Drawing cards is nice and all, and having counters, but I seem to prefer these kind of decks still. Lately I've been into returning to this archetype. I know treasure cruise was giving us a hard time, which was one reason I kept playing blue. But now when it's gone, I feel much more inclined to return.

So after browsing decks that have done well, I've noticed BBE seems to get the cut nowdays. Example: http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/176727, http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/102736

Why is that?

Many of those Japanese lists replaced Bloodbraid Elf with Goblin Rabblemaster because he does almost the same thing (pressures planeswalkers immediately & board advantage) for 1 less mana. In my experience, Goblin Rabblemaster has not been worth it, but here is a small pros list of each card.

PROS of Rabblemaster:
1) 1 Less mana, which in Legacy is huge. Enables tempo plays which are otherwise not possible, for example wastelanding the opponent easier earlier in the game.
2) Keeps adding board presence continually.
3) Ends the game very quickly by itself. Helps with over-extension by requiring only himself to provide adequate pressure vs decks with sweepers.

PROS of Bloodbraid:
1) Gets better post SB, cascading into relevant cards more often.
2) Puts more immediate pressure on the board, usually can kill a planeswalker immediately.
3) Doesn't die to abrupt decay


EDIT: After looking at the decklists you posted, I realize that none of them even had rabblemaster.

It looks like people are experimenting with different cards such as Tasigur or Ooze + extra library manipulation or extra discard in that slot. I can definitely understand the incentive to do so, as those cards are good and provide powerful effects. By cutting Bloodbraid Elf though, you are opening yourself to losing to Jace more often, and that is my least favorite way to lose. When I played Maverick, I really hated getting all my early creatures STP'd and then Jace lands and there is literally nothing you can do outside of equipping a Sword of Fire Ice in the same turn as casting your creature or fetching up a Dryad Arbor at end of turn. In a meta without Jace, I can maybe see cutting the elf, but I am still reluctant to do so because cascades can really mean the difference between winning and losing.

Also to quote Reid Duke (who I am very reluctant to disagree with):

"Bloodbraid Elf is the perfect curve topper but not much beyond that. Nearly every deck in Legacy either kills you in the first three turns or Wastelands you out of the game, so the last thing you want to look at is multiple four-drops in your opening hand. However, the mere presence of Bloodbraid in your deck dramatically reduces the value of opposing planeswalkers, most specifically Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Bloodbraid is never bad, and I've added the fourth copy to the sideboard to come in in grindy matches like the mirror or whenever you have too many weak cards. A good example would be the Miracles matchup, where it's helpful to reduce your reliance on the graveyard to hedge your bets against Rest in Peace and Relic of Progenitus.

Bloodbraid becomes better after sideboarding for two reasons. First, your deck becomes more streamlined (better) for the matchup in question, so you're more likely to cascade into something good; second, both players are more likely to load up on removal, so there's a higher chance of the game dragging on and powerful, expensive spells determining the winner."

[jungleman3955]

I'm a proponent of Goblin Rabblemaster over BBE in jund, one of the very few it seems. My experiences have been more in favor of Rabble than BBE but both are excellent and you should play the one you want.

[Neffy]

I took this deck to a small LGS tourny yesterday and went 3-2. Which Im quite happy about.

The list:

2 Badlands
3 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Thoughtseize

Sideboard:

2 Ancient Grudge
1 Choke
1 Creeping Corrosion
2 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Umezawa's Jitte

You will notice that I choose not to run grove and p.fire, and with dual rabblemasters and tasigur. To me the rabblemaster seemed like a very strong card in my meta and I wanted to test it. Same for Tasigur.
I opted to change the manabase to a more solid one, since running 4 grove, 3 waste and a forest often (to me) means that i dont have access to black often enough. Especially when running 4 hymns. I added more fetches which was nuts as I always had the right lands to grab. Taiga also makes things alot easier when going T1 swamp. I raised the bolts to 4 and that was quite useful too.

The board was entirely made for the LGS meta yesterday (hoped to see lots of MUD - therefore creeping - however i did not..)

R1 I faced mono green infect which got me on 9 and 8 poison counters however I held him off creatures with Liliana, Tasigur and Goblin rabblemaster. (2-0)
R2 was against BUG (oh yeah! B)..) I killed him off with fast goblins (beat for 1, next turn beat for 6!) He had to double block the 5/2 rabble with small goyf and DRS, which was nice. G2 he gets me with a sticking Tombstalker. G3 is G1 all over. Our two-for-one cards is too much for that deck.. (2-1)
R3 I faced ANT.. Game one I get to discard some of his cards and Lily ticks up to 6 while i beat him and he does nothing. He is hell bent, and I choose not to sac lily to ultimate, which lost me the game, since he top decks past in flames and combos off from his yard... :( Stupid. G2 is the same but he uses all his cards to pump out 8 goblins and casts dual DK on my dudes... I had him!!! 0-2
R4 vs. aggro loam, he uses his DKs for my creatures and i stick a Lily which steals the game. I also hymn him twice for 4 removal spells. G2 I hymn him some more and win with tripple goyf. (2-0)
R5 was omni show with black for Thoughtseizes. This matchup is the worst, but i still got to hymn him 3 turns in a row. He however just hid show and emra on top and I lose. G2 I go Thoughtseize, take Show, and surgical it. I win T1 lol... G3 he does the same and emra's on T1.. Karma I guess..

So I lost to the worst match ups which is okay. The others were a feast.
Some notes for the deck:
- The grove-less mana base was very solid and much easier to cast from.
- I did not miss P.fire with 4 bolts and 4 decay and pulse.
- Rabblemaster is insane. I love him already. Never got to cascade into him though.
- Tasigur is still much fun. And potentially game breaking, but might not ever be more than a 1-of.
- 4 Hymns again is so good in most matches.
- The list seemed very stable with less GY dependency

Over and out

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

@ironclad8690: both Red Death and Jund? Same here but I'm still on the fence... I could buy the BBEs and Rabblemasters or stay with Red Death and just buy some Cabals. What am I saying, I'll obviously end up buying both.

What's your local meta? Does either one favor the decks you meet at your LGS?

Also messing around with Team America on Xmage (as I have real life FoWs from way back when) but as you might have guessed by now, casting a counterspell gives me an icky feeling! But I have no qualms about casting Thoughtseize.... yes, ridiculous logic, I know. My therapist has pointed out the hypocrisy ;-)

[ironclad8690]

@i_hate_counterspells haha yeah I have tried almost every non blue deck and those are my favorites. Red death is better vs combo by virtue of having more disruption and less staying power and removal, but Jund is the best all around (sometimes my meta gets way combo inbred and sometimes it is all delver, you never know)

[skyout]

I just picked up a few Tasigur, the Golden Fang and I was wondering what people thought about him in the deck. I am a big fan of Bloodbraid Elf for the card advantage and being able to easily pick off opposing Jace, the Mind Sculptors.

My question is, have you guys tested him and what would you cut for him?

For reference here is my list (sideboard is now a lot different with the demise of Treasure Cruise: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=78406

[ironclad8690]

@skyout I have not had a chance to test, but something about Tasigur makes me feel icky. I will definitely test after this 5k SCG in LA, but I am not too keen on switching anything in my deck before a large tourny without having practiced it before.

Here is the list I am registering for the 5k in LA this weekend:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bloodbraid Elf

3 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach

4 Liliana of the Veil

1 Sylvan Library

1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
1 Choke
2 Duress
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Plague
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ancient Grudge


I have been testing on cockatrice, and outside of a few cases of bad luck I have been doing pretty well. I have been keeping records of my match stats since cruise got banned, and I am largely positive (some of these are at my local store as well).

53-24 in games, 25-8-1 in matches. I am not trying to brag, I just want to share my data with everyone else.

The first and second columns of numbers are game wins and losses, and the 3rd, 4th, and 5th columns are match wins, losses, and draws respectively.

http://i.imgur.com/MH4kbl5.jpg?1

[skyout]

@skyout I have not had a chance to test, but something about Tasigur makes me feel icky. I will definitely test after this 5k SCG in LA, but I am not too keen on switching anything in my deck before a large tourny without having practiced it before.

Here is the list I am registering for the 5k in LA this weekend:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bloodbraid Elf

3 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach

4 Liliana of the Veil

1 Sylvan Library

1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
1 Choke
2 Duress
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Golgari Charm
1 Engineered Plague
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ancient Grudge


I have been testing on cockatrice, and outside of a few cases of bad luck I have been doing pretty well. I have been keeping records of my match stats since cruise got banned, and I am largely positive (some of these are at my local store as well).

53-24 in games, 25-8-1 in matches. I am not trying to brag, I just want to share my data with everyone else.

The first and second columns of numbers are game wins and losses, and the 3rd, 4th, and 5th columns are match wins, losses, and draws respectively.



First off, I want to commend you for all of your data driven testing, it's something that I would like to do but haven't had to time to set it up. It definitely helps paint a clearer picture of the match-ups and win/loss percentages. You're list is almost identical to the one that I took to a SCG IQ (my list is here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=78406) , so I think we have a very similar mindset/playstyle. I would be interested in seeing some more information about your sideboard choices and how you feel they are working out.

In the meantime I will be testing out a couple of Tasigur, the Golden Fang, possibly one in place of a Bloodbraid Elf and maybe one in place of a Dark Confidant.

[ironclad8690]

First off, I want to commend you for all of your data driven testing, it's something that I would like to do but haven't had to time to set it up. It definitely helps paint a clearer picture of the match-ups and win/loss percentages. You're list is almost identical to the one that I took to a SCG IQ (my list is here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=78406) , so I think we have a very similar mindset/playstyle. I would be interested in seeing some more information about your sideboard choices and how you feel they are working out.

In the meantime I will be testing out a couple of Tasigur, the Golden Fang, possibly one in place of a Bloodbraid Elf and maybe one in place of a Dark Confidant.

Sure thing:

2 Duress - I play these for added hate against combo decks in game 2/3. Reid Duke once mentioned that he brought them in against Miracles as well, but I do not think this is necessary. Great vs Burn.

1 Hymn to Tourach - Additional combo hate, also bring it in in the mirror and against decks like Shardless BUG and Burn.

2 Golgari Charm - Hate for TNN, Rest in Peace, Young Pyromancer, Elves, Death and Taxes/Maverick.

1 Engineered Plague - Used to be Toxic Deluge, but I like the permanent effect vs TNN, Elves, Humans, or Elementals (or even Monks).

2 Pyroblast - Anti Delver, Brainstorm, Show and Tell, Ancestral Visions, Jace.

1 Choke - Bring in against pretty much any blue fair deck, sometimes not on the draw (like against say RUG where you want to destroy their creatures asap)

2 Surgical Extraction - I love this card because combined with Thoughseize you can destroy a combo deck on turn 1 and play around Daze using phyrexian mana (like against Reanimator). I also love this card in any Punishing Fire mirror, like Lands or Nic Fit. Nab Griselbrand, any Loam deck etc, not to mention taking Ichorid against dredge.

1 Grafdigger's Cage - Good vs Elves, Reanimator, Dredge, Nic Fit, Maverick, Oops All Spells, Storm.

1 Ancient Grudge - Really like this vs the Blade decks, Death and Taxes, Maverick, Chalice/Trinisphere decks, MUD, Affinity (you never know).

1 Umezawa's Jitte - Vs almost any fair deck I will often bring this in in exchange for a Hymn or a Thoughtseize. I am not sure about this slot though, it has saved my ass against Burn enough for me to continue using it for now.

1 Pithing Needle - Was Phyrexian Revoker, but I switched back to Pithing Needle because Miracles has more outs to a Revoker, and I expect to see more Miracles than Storm (possibly incorrectly so). I bring in vs Griselbrand decks, Sneak Attack, Elves, and sometimes even Aether Vial decks. Shutting off Vial can just be that good. Love Showing this in against Show and Tell when they are trying to play around Liliana by putting in Sneak (which I think a good pilot will do more often than not).

I think that is everything? Let me know if you have any questions. I would love to hear thoughts. Other recent considerations were Null Rod, Cursed Totem, Ensnaring Bridge, Chains of Mephistopheles (which I can borrow but do not own :/), Spirit of the Labyrinth, and Gaddock Teeg (white splash to attack on a different axis vs combo, but I do not think the de-stability of the manabase is worth.)

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Does anyone else use SB Pernicious Deed versus Elves, goblins, miracles, counter/top?

[DOM]

I have experimented with a one-off in sideboard, mainly to wreck Affinity. It did won me some games versus the mentioned artifacts as well as a game or two against Elves and Miracles but losing my own huge chunk of the field made me rethink keeping it. What is more, you usually give your opponent a turn to answer your Deed before you can untap and pop it, which can be devastating. Another huge downside is that PD can be shut with Needle / Revoker which makes it less effective versus Death and Taxes as well as Affinity. All things considered, it is a one-off that can either be very helpful or not decent at all. After a while, I have stopped sideboarding it in against most of the decks it seemed good against and replaced with an another card.

My current sideboard is rather versatile, especially when combined with Tony Chu's mainboard (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=52829) that I have been using since I have picked this deck. I have been tailoring my side after each tournament until I have reached this:

2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
2 Engineered Plague
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Golgari Charm
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ancient Grudge

Rakdos Charm is here against Affinity and grave-based strategies as I felt that I needed one more graveyard blow-out card (Scooze is too slow to take care of things on his own and is here mainly for Burn. Of course, I side him in against gy-based strategies anyway).

The only card that I often question is Umezawa's Jitte because it has been a long time since I boarded it in against the decks I intended on using it, e.g. Death and Taxes, Elves, as it requires a creature and is often rather slow. However, Jitte does wonderful things against Burn, which undoubtedly is a tough matchup for us.

Interestingly enough, my side is very similar to Ironclad's, which is actually quite appealing.

[Nuke is Good]

Does anyone else use SB Pernicious Deed versus Elves, goblins, miracles, counter/top?

I put in Deed vs elves but I find it too slow at times. I can get it out as early as turn 2 but sometimes it's too late vs elves. But Deed in general is amazing as hell.


I have experimented with a one-off in sideboard, mainly to wreck Affinity. It did won me some games versus the mentioned artifacts as well as a game or two against Elves and Miracles but losing my own huge chunk of the field made me rethink keeping it. What is more, you usually give your opponent a turn to answer your Deed before you can untap and pop it, which can be devastating. Another huge downside is that PD can be shut with Needle / Revoker which makes it less effective versus Death and Taxes as well as Affinity. All things considered, it is a one-off that can either be very helpful or not decent at all. After a while, I have stopped sideboarding it in against most of the decks it seemed good against and replaced with an another card.

My current sideboard is rather versatile, especially when combined with Tony Chu's mainboard (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=52829) that I have been using since I have picked this deck. I have been tailoring my side after each tournament until I have reached this:

2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
2 Engineered Plague
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Golgari Charm
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ancient Grudge

Rakdos Charm is here against Affinity and grave-based strategies as I felt that I needed one more graveyard blow-out card (Scooze is too slow to take care of things on his own and is here mainly for Burn. Of course, I side him in against gy-based strategies anyway).

The only card that I often question is Umezawa's Jitte because it has been a long time since I boarded it in against the decks I intended on using it, e.g. Death and Taxes, Elves, as it requires a creature and is often rather slow. However, Jitte does wonderful things against Burn, which undoubtedly is a tough matchup for us.

Interestingly enough, my side is very similar to Ironclad's, which is actually quite appealing.

I learned of the power of PD against Affinity. The first time I used it was to kill two Ornithopters attacking me for lethal with cranials on them, when I activated the Deed on 0 I just saw the affinity player gasp. Not knowing why I just saw him put all 8 of his artifact lands in the yard. In regards to Burn, DRS and Jitte might be our best outs unless you want to try the Modern strategy of Kitchen finks which I find way too slow. Burn is a problem deck for us but to change the board so much that it harms other matchups is concerning.

[ironclad8690]

Hey guys,

So I messed up. After testing Jund for a really long time I went to the SCG LA side event on Saturday, went 1-3 in the grinder (beat death and taxes, lost to grixis delver, lost to dredge, lost to BG loam pox), and then I panicked at the last second the night before the big event and switched to Punishing Nic Fit. Needless to say, it didn't go well. Wish I had a tournament report but I don't.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

What? We were all depending on you! What am I supposed to do at the next FNM?!

(lol, only joking :-)

[DudeItsCorey]

Hey guys,

So I messed up. After testing Jund for a really long time I went to the SCG LA side event on Saturday, went 1-3 in the grinder (beat death and taxes, lost to grixis delver, lost to dredge, lost to BG loam pox), and then I panicked at the last second the night before the big event and switched to Punishing Nic Fit. Needless to say, it didn't go well. Wish I had a tournament report but I don't.

That's so funny. I didn't know you were Ironclad.

So I took Punishing Jund after playing Dark Maverick for years as a Meta call and was very much expecting a heavy Delver/Miracles/Elves meta. I ended with a 6-2 finish to 16th place with $100.00 and a playmat for my efforts. It was heavy, heavy combo, with my losses being first round Omnitell and fourth round ANT. I imported put 2 Scavenging Ooze in my main (from maverick) as a meta call because he is very good against Goyf, Goose, Deathrite, Punishing Fire, Keeping decks off delve, etc. I went down a goyf, because he is essentially replacing the goyf and went down on a Lily, because I feel 4 is too much. I played Omni in the final round and won due to Slaughter Games, so that is a definite keep. I last minute replaced Chains with it, but after my poor showing against Storm, I am putting it back in. I will probably replace Null Rod with it, because I feel pithing needle already does a lot of what Null Rod does, but we are already so heavily favored again equipment decks it really not necessary. Although, I'm not sure how the MUD match-up is and I brought it in-case I ran into that deck (which I didn't of course). All in All I am really happy with the deck and will probably be playing it for a while. I feel like we are weaker to Storm (obvisously) than Maverick, but also graveyard based strategies. Which was another reason why I am included 2 Scooze. This is definitely a first step in tweaking the deck to my fancy, but I thought I would share. Below is my list:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=80345

[DudeItsCorey]

I was just thinking. Null Rod keeps storm from using L.E.D. and Petal. So it maybe better than pithing needle. The only thing I can see pithing needle being better is against Sneak Attack. How is our MUD matchup? I'm not sure. What are your thoughts?

[skyout]

That's so funny. I didn't know you were Ironclad.

So I took Punishing Jund after playing Dark Maverick for years as a Meta call and was very much expecting a heavy Delver/Miracles/Elves meta. I ended with a 6-2 finish to 16th place with $100.00 and a playmat for my efforts. It was heavy, heavy combo, with my losses being first round Omnitell and fourth round ANT. I imported put 2 Scavenging Ooze in my main (from maverick) as a meta call because he is very good against Goyf, Goose, Deathrite, Punishing Fire, Keeping decks off delve, etc. I went down a goyf, because he is essentially replacing the goyf and went down on a Lily, because I feel 4 is too much. I played Omni in the final round and won due to Slaughter Games, so that is a definite keep. I last minute replaced Chains with it, but after my poor showing against Storm, I am putting it back in. I will probably replace Null Rod with it, because I feel pithing needle already does a lot of what Null Rod does, but we are already so heavily favored again equipment decks it really not necessary. Although, I'm not sure how the MUD match-up is and I brought it in-case I ran into that deck (which I didn't of course). All in All I am really happy with the deck and will probably be playing it for a while. I feel like we are weaker to Storm (obvisously) than Maverick, but also graveyard based strategies. Which was another reason why I am included 2 Scooze. This is definitely a first step in tweaking the deck to my fancy, but I thought I would share. Below is my list:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=80345

Why did you cut down on the lightning bolts?

[razvan]

Great job! I am still crying over ONE Lightning Bolt, but congratulations :)

Null Rod is pretty bonkers vs. Storm. Great idea.

[DudeItsCorey]

Why did you cut down on the lightning bolts?

Between 4 Punishing Fires, 4 Abrupt Decays, 3 Lilianas I felt I had removal covered. I wasn't even going to include it until I was told to have a miser as a "extra reach" contingency. I really don't know what else I would cut to add more.

I had a conversation with someone over Lightning Bolt. The consensus is that it's in Punishing Jund to be a turn one removal against Delver. The problem is that most delver decks run daze, so if you're on the play (where it would be relevant) if you're just running it into Daze and you're going to have a bad time. Now with Abrupt decay being uncounterable, Turn 1 thoughtseize to remove the daze (or eat it), or if you're on the play, turn 1 Deathrite into turn 2 punishing fire (having 1 extra mana with Deathrite) you're still getting the same outcome. You may take 1 or 3 damage, but one swing from Delver isn't going to kill me.

With Elves, which is another reason to run 1 drop removal, I'm boarding into Golgari Charms and Toxic Deluge, so I'm not too worried about it.

[ironclad8690]

Between 4 Punishing Fires, 4 Abrupt Decays, 3 Lilianas I felt I had removal covered. I wasn't even going to include it until I was told to have a miser as a "extra reach" contingency. I really don't know what else I would cut to add more.

I had a conversation with someone over Lightning Bolt. The consensus is that it's in Punishing Jund to be a turn one removal against Delver. The problem is that most delver decks run daze, so if you're on the play (where it would be relevant) if you're just running it into Daze and you're going to have a bad time. Now with Abrupt decay being uncounterable, Turn 1 thoughtseize to remove the daze (or eat it), or if you're on the play, turn 1 Deathrite into turn 2 punishing fire (having 1 extra mana with Deathrite) you're still getting the same outcome. You may take 1 or 3 damage, but one swing from Delver isn't going to kill me.

With Elves, which is another reason to run 1 drop removal, I'm boarding into Golgari Charms and Toxic Deluge, so I'm not too worried about it.

I think that conversation was with me lol.

Yeah, the thing I like about lightning bolt is that it makes it easier to play around daze in the event that you don't have Abrupt Decay (corner case, but still). I have gotten punishing fire dazed so many times that after a while I just wanted more ways to not worry about that. Also, Thalia tax is annoying to me vs D&T and Maverick (3 mana punishing fire makes me wanna puke).

[jake556]

I lowered my bolt count for a tournament one time, and D&T messed me up pretty bad. Like flat out pounded the dog shit out of me, no answer to T1 Mom + Thalia taxing my ass. I couldn't handle all the critters. Plus Serra Avenger is a 3/3 which is relevant. So it might be because I'm traumatized lol, but I will never trim the bolt count in Jund EVER again.

[DudeItsCorey]

I lowered my bolt count for a tournament one time, and D&T messed me up pretty bad. Like flat out pounded the dog shit out of me, no answer to T1 Mom + Thalia taxing my ass. I couldn't handle all the critters. Plus Serra Avenger is a 3/3 which is relevant. So it might be because I'm traumatized lol, but I will never trim the bolt count in Jund EVER again.

Funny, I found D&T to be one of our best match-ups. This is why Toxic Deluge is better than Engineered Plague. Best Panic/Reset button made in black. Under Gaddock Teeg and can hit things like Progenitus, Emerkul, Blightsteel, etc. Also, Golgari Charm does work against D&T. Also, with mother of runes I will end step Punishing Fire and then on my main phase punishing fire Mom. Punishing fire, to me, seems like the best anti-mom card out there. Also, the -x/-x sweepers mentioned above.

[jake556]

Funny, I found D&T to be one of our best match-ups. This is why Toxic Deluge is better than Engineered Plague. Best Panic/Reset button made in black. Under Gaddock Teeg and can hit things like Progenitus, Emerkul, Blightsteel, etc. Also, Golgari Charm does work against D&T. Also, with mother of runes I will end step Punishing Fire and then on my main phase punishing fire Mom. Punishing fire, to me, seems like the best anti-mom card out there. Also, the -x/-x sweepers mentioned above.

This was Pre-Deluge, and paying at least 5-7 mana to kill mom doesn't give me a good feeling in the face of Wasteland, Thaila, Vial etc...

[razvan]

This is not a deck that struggles with DnT. I am pretty sure the first sweeper or Punishing Fire without a Rest in Peace (and even then) is pretty game.

I was rarely ever able to fit in a Toxic Deluge (sadly). The card is fun.

[jim111589]

So I'm new to this deck ,coming from elves, and I'm wondering what the sideboard plan with reb/Pyro is. If they cone in do the bbe's come out? Do they come in agent blue bases combo and tnn decks only?

[ironclad8690]

So I'm new to this deck ,coming from elves, and I'm wondering what the sideboard plan with reb/Pyro is. If they cone in do the bbe's come out? Do they come in agent blue bases combo and tnn decks only?

You usually want them against delver decks as more 1 mana answers to delver (usually you can take out some hymns or thoughtseizes vs them), as well as vs tnn decks and shardless. Vs any combo deck with brainstorm it is more valuable than p fire or abrupt decay, so you dont need to worry about eating up extra slots.

[skyout]

You usually want them against delver decks as more 1 mana answers to delver (usually you can take out some hymns or thoughtseizes vs them), as well as vs tnn decks and shardless. Vs any combo deck with brainstorm it is more valuable than p fire or abrupt decay, so you dont need to worry about eating up extra slots.

I want to follow this up with how good it is against combo decks. Being able to stop them from scuplting their hand while also taking things with discard is a great way to help Jund beat decks like Storm.

[DudeItsCorey]

I want to follow this up with how good it is against combo decks. Being able to stop them from scuplting their hand while also taking things with discard is a great way to help Jund beat decks like Storm.

Also, when you Hymn and they Force (which happens to protect their combo pieces) and you follow up with a REB, you just 4 for 2 them. Such a great feeling. Keep in mind that Pyroblast can be redirected/misdirected to one of your permanents (thus fizzling). REB can't. I learned that the hard way this last weekend and will now be running REB.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Pop quiz:

(assuming you have a second land in your starting seven)

Turn 1 on the play - how do you choose between DRS or Thoughtseize, against which decks?

Turn 1 on the draw - same question.

[I would give you my suggestion on this but.... I have no idea, hence the question!]

[sdematt]

If you fear combo, thoughtseize. If not, Drs. If Miracles and youre on the play, TS.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

If you fear combo, thoughtseize. If not, Drs. If Miracles and youre on the play, TS.

Hmmm.... but if I play DRS first turn, I could play spells worth 3 mana on my second turn. That's enough for the TS as well as a Hymn/Sylvan/Decay/Edict. Or even a turn 2 Lilly.

[sdematt]

Or die on turn 1 against combo. If against Miracles, you want to take Top.

[DudeItsCorey]

Pop quiz:

(assuming you have a second land in your starting seven)

Turn 1 on the play - how do you choose between DRS or Thoughtseize, against which decks?

Turn 1 on the draw - same question.

[I would give you my suggestion on this but.... I have no idea, hence the question!]

Going in blind on the play, it's always safest to thoughtseize over DRS, just incase they're running combo. If you already know it's not combo, you probably boarded out the thoughtseize (or a few). So play the deathrite and if they force, well then you two for 1 them.

On the draw, you have to guess what they're playing. If they leaving a blue fetch uncracked, chances are you're going to run into a Daze, so thouhtseize is more important, because you want your deathrite to stick. Same if they turn 1 delver. More than likely if they leave an uncracked fetch they're just going to brainstorm. However, you need to keep a mana up to out play the tempo (delver) decks. Now if they turn 1 mother or runes, lightning bolt (without playing a volcanic island), deathrite shaman, etc. I would go ahead and play my deathrite. If they play main phase brainstorm, ponder or preordain, I almost always assume they're on combo and would play the thoughtseize.

[skyout]

Pop quiz:

(assuming you have a second land in your starting seven)

Turn 1 on the play - how do you choose between DRS or Thoughtseize, against which decks?

Turn 1 on the draw - same question.

[I would give you my suggestion on this but.... I have no idea, hence the question!]


Against any type of Delver or creature based strategy I will be playing Deathrite Shaman on the first turn, play or draw. Against any type of combo deck I will be playing Thoughtseize. Against an unknown opponent it is a tough call, but I would probably error on the side of Thoughtseize.

[razvan]

Yea against a combo deck or unknown opponent, Thoughtseize on turn 1 could be the difference (although those decks, blind, game 1 are usually tough, so maybe not).

Against Stoneforge decks, it often can be good to save it for their equipment since they can rarely afford to wait until 4 mana to cast Jitte after fetching it.

[aluisiocsantos]

I will only play anything other than Thoughtseize on turn one in the following circunstances:
-I know what he's playing.
-I have a way too strong hand to mulligan.
-It's game 2 and his deck is one that doesn't require urgent discarding.
-If i'm on the draw.

If it's not those four, it's always Thoughtseize!

[jim111589]

Hey y'all, so I'v been play testing a proxied version of this deck with my group and on trice and I'm loving the deck. I'm just wondering if there is a general sideboarding rule of thumb against the big decks (miricles, storm, elves, ect)? My board looks something like..

3 REB
2 surgical
2 duress
1 choke
1 chains
1 needle
1 e. Plague
1 a. Grudge
1 golgari charm
1 cage
1 jitte

[jim111589]

Hey y'all, so I'v been play testing a proxied version of this deck with my group and on trice and I'm loving the deck. I'm just wondering if there is a general sideboarding rule of thumb against the big decks (miricles, storm, elves, ect)? My board looks something like..

3 REB
2 surgical
2 duress
1 choke
1 chains
1 needle
1 e. Plague
1 a. Grudge
1 golgari charm
1 cage
1 jitte
I'm on my phone so a full list takes to long and I don't have it to memory but I am running jraniga's main which can be find here http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=9106&d=251979&f=LE

[DudeItsCorey]

Hey y'all, so I'v been play testing a proxied version of this deck with my group and on trice and I'm loving the deck. I'm just wondering if there is a general sideboarding rule of thumb against the big decks (miricles, storm, elves, ect)? My board looks something like..

3 REB
2 surgical
2 duress
1 choke
1 chains
1 needle
1 e. Plague
1 a. Grudge
1 golgari charm
1 cage
1 jitte

REB - 3 might be too much in the current meta. Before yeah for TC, but now 2 should be enough. I would board into for Delver decks, Miracles, Show and Tell, Storm.

Surgical - for any combo matchup. Turn 1 discard into surgical is living the dream. Also, graveyard decks, which happen to be all combo too

Duress - Again for combo. Except for elves. Also Burn.

Choke - All Blue decks. Expect storm, which is not a blue deck. It's a black deck that cantrips.

Chains - Storm, Elves, Miracles, Omnitell. Enter the infinite and Chains have a funny interaction.

Needle - Maverick, D&T, Elves, Miracles, Painter, MUD. I would advocate for null rod though. That can stop LED and Lotus Petal. Anything that helps against our worst matchup (storm) is better.

E.Plague - Death and Taxes, Elves, TNN decks. I prefer Toxic Deluge and my story is because once I played against and elves player that natural ordered into Progenitus and I Deluged for 10 and won. So yeah. I also board into Toxic Deluge against all delver matchups to stabilize the board if needed. T.D. also great against: Infect, Goblins, Maverick, Etc.

Ancient Grudge - Equipment, MUD, Painter, Storm (although one can argue it could be too late), Death and Taxes, etc. Pretty straight forward.

Golgari Charm - Elves, D&T, TNN Decks, Infect ( for the -1/-1). Board into Miracles, Omnitell (for the destroy enchantment). Esper Stoneblade and Jeskai Stoneblade (for the regeneration against Supreme Verdict, TNN and some are boarding into counterbalance these days).

Cage - Storm, Elves, Maverick, Graveyard decks.

Jitte - Burn, Elves, D&T, Infect, Dead Guy Ale.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Other than the Goblin Rabblemaster discussion a few weeks ago, does anyone have experience of running Jund without Punishing Fire & Burnwillows? Or is it generally accepted nowadays that they are an absolute must-have? Personally, the mana-base with the Groves just feels a little.... ugly.

[DudeItsCorey]

Other than the Goblin Rabblemaster discussion a few weeks ago, does anyone have experience of running Jund without Punishing Fire & Burnwillows? Or is it generally accepted nowadays that they are an absolute must-have? Personally, the mana-base with the Groves just feels a little.... ugly.

Coming from a Maverick Player, where fetching/playing the wrong land can cost you the game, the mana base with groves isn't all that shakey. Between Bobs, Sylvan Library and Fetches getting the right lands/fixing is relatively a non issue. Now there are games that you can be wastelanded out or be mana screwed, but that's legacy/magic in general. I don't see why you would have the want or need to take away the combo that makes the deck beat pretty much all fair decks.

[sdematt]

In all honesty, one of the only reasons to run Jund is because you get REB, a few other sideboard cards, and Punishing Fires. Other than that? Not much reason. This is this shard's main allure. White being SFM/Souls/Teeg, Blue being Cantrips, etc.

-Matt

[aluisiocsantos]

Also Bolt and BBE.

Jund also run enough fetchlands and DRS which generally makes up for the greed. Some old list from yore also used to run Urborg.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

I cannot source any Groves (short supply in my town) so I won't be able to play with P.Fires this weekend. Alternatives? Grim Lavamancer? Anyone tried that?

[aluisiocsantos]

Also probably up the Decay and Bolt count.

[Nuke is Good]

Also probably up the Decay and Bolt count.

This, along with maybe a singleton M. Pulse.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

This is what I'll load up and report back:

3 Wastelands
18 duals/fetch/swamp/forest

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library
4 Thoughtseize

2 Liliana of the Veil

3 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Grim Lavamancer

Sideboard: all the usual suspects

Yeah, I know, 21 lands is being greedy but f$%k it. "Half a league, half a league, half a league onward...."!

[Krimson Viper]

How has Jund been doing lately?

[DOM]

@I_Hate_Counterspells

21 lands is ridiculously greedy. The last list of Pun-Less Jund that topped ran 24 (w/4 Waselands) ( Jund by Thea Seele (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=6290&d=236164) ).


How has Jund been doing lately?

Fairly good, judging by the MTG top 8 (http://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=301&meta=39&f=LE), though I suspect that not many people are playing it nowadays.

[aluisiocsantos]

Im pretty sure you want 4 dark confidants too, though if you don't I'd take the risk and put Tombstalker. I've experimented before with 2 bobs and him and it was sorta cool.

[DudeItsCorey]

This is what I'll load up and report back:

3 Wastelands
18 duals/fetch/swamp/forest

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library
4 Thoughtseize

2 Liliana of the Veil

3 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Grim Lavamancer

Sideboard: all the usual suspects

Yeah, I know, 21 lands is being greedy but f$%k it. "Half a league, half a league, half a league onward...."!

Yeah, more lands is definitely the right call given your curve. I'd also include more Lilys and Bobs over the edict and lavamancer. If you still have space open, Tombstalker always does a lot of work.

[DudeItsCorey]

How has Jund been doing lately?

I don't think enough people are playing it right now to say it's not or is doing well. People have been on a Bug kick lately and I think all the non-blue fair deck players are on Maverick and D&T.

[aluisiocsantos]

How has Jund been doing lately?

Jund has been on the decline ever since they printed TNN though it was brought to new lows with the Delve cards, as they effectively mitigate Jund's main strenght: card advantage. A discard is not that terrible anymore, as it's still food for Dig Through Time, but I think more people will come back now that at least Tom Cruise is banned. There's always several new lists popping up on TC Decks though!

[Nuke is Good]

Jund has been on the decline ever since they printed TNN though it was brought to new lows with the Delve cards, as they effectively mitigate Jund's main strenght: card advantage. A discard is not that terrible anymore, as it's still food for Dig Through Time, but I think more people will come back now that at least Tom Cruise is banned. There's always several new lists popping up on TC Decks though!

Yeah when Tom Cruise was still legal Jund and BUG strategies were not popular. With it banned people are going back to boring ass delver strategies and Maverick, so.....BRING THE BGx PAIN!

[razvan]

Yea, I really didn't understand why people thought it was bad in a Cruise meta. Just throw in 3 Chains of Mephistopheles and all is well! :)

[Nuke is Good]

Yea, I really didn't understand why people thought it was bad in a Cruise meta. Just throw in 3 Chains of Mephistopheles and all is well! :)

Even then though U/R Delver was basically a burn deck with counters which made our lives hell. Chains and MD Pyroblasts were a stopgap solution. Also shrinking our Goyfs with delve effects didn't help matters.

Also as much as I love Jund, I cannot justify buying two more chains.

It was a good time for me when I switched to Reanimator during that time.

[ironclad8690]

Jund has been on the decline ever since they printed TNN though it was brought to new lows with the Delve cards, as they effectively mitigate Jund's main strenght: card advantage. A discard is not that terrible anymore, as it's still food for Dig Through Time, but I think more people will come back now that at least Tom Cruise is banned. There's always several new lists popping up on TC Decks though!

That's funny, I thought it peaked after Pat Cox played it that one time, and then again when True Name came out.

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/131213_lasvegas.html

I played in the open attached to that tournament, and got crushed by multiple jund decks. 2 Jund's went on to top 8 that, and 2 Jund decks also put pilots into the top 8 of the invitational.

[aluisiocsantos]

That's funny, I thought it peaked after Pat Cox played it that one time, and then again when True Name came out.

http://www.starcitygames.com/events/131213_lasvegas.html

I played in the open attached to that tournament, and got crushed by multiple jund decks. 2 Jund's went on to top 8 that, and 2 Jund decks also put pilots into the top 8 of the invitational.

Don't get me wrong thou, a brazillian pilot won the national tournment with the deck (the four reb maindeck list), but you can even go to the Dtb thread and check how it was less and less played.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Yeah, more lands is definitely the right call given your curve. I'd also include more Lilys and Bobs over the edict and lavamancer. If you still have space open, Tombstalker always does a lot of work.

Re the non-punishing Jund idea, don't. Just don't. I got spanked. Hard. 0-3.

But you live and learn: against BUG Delver I learned that Divert is a card... on my ADecay on his Goyf back onto my Goyf. Be careful out there kids! Miracles was boring and close (1-0-1) but no cigar. Last game was GW Maverick but Elvis had left the building by then :wink:

Shardless BUG, here we come.

[skyout]

Played a 20 man, five round, weekly legacy tournament this past weekend. I ended up going 4-1 and splitting the top four. Here is a mini-report about the event.

Round 1: U/R Standard Deck (2-0)

I was basically given a bye round one. The player was a little kid who played a pretty bad U/R standard deck which I quickly ran over. I felt kind of bad because I don't think he knew what he was getting into.

1-0

Round 2: Miracles (2-0)

This guy was on the Joe Losset miracles list. I was able to take game one off of a lot of pressure from a Tarmogoyf that ate a Terminus, only to follow up by killing him with Punishing Fire and a Dark Confidant. One really annoying thing was a Vendilion Clique hitting my Liliana of the Veil with impunity when he had a Karakas on board. It took two Punishing Fires and a Liliana to kill it. Game two he was able to get a Sensei's Divining Top and Counterbalance on the table but I was able to kill with an Abrupt Decay. I was able to get a Sylvan Library on board and start to sculpt my draws. I ended up casting two Bloodbraid Elves in a row with the second one hitting a Choke while he was tapped out.

2-0

Round 3: Enchantress (0-2)

This is a regular player at the event, so I knew what he was playing. I brought the Pernicious Deeds in my sideboard just for this match up. Game one he was able to get a quick elephant grass into two Rest in Peace. I was only able to kill one of them before he got a helm out and kill me. Game two I was able to get his enchantments with a deed. He quickly rebuilt his board and proceeded to get two more elephant grasses out. I did land a Pithing Needle after the deed, but soon after he proceeded to draw his entire deck, oblivion ring my needle and kill me with a helm. This is definitely a pretty bad match up with all the hate from Elephant Grass and Rest in Peace.

2-1

Round 4: Deathblade (2-1)

This guy was on a non-traditional four color blade list. He was running the usual Liliana, TNN, and JTMS. But he was also running the lingering souls package with green for Abrupt Decay as well. Game one I was able to get a pretty decent board presence with a Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant. Unfortunately he got a quick clock going with a TNN and Liliana and I wasn't able to keep up. The second game I was a lot better off with the sideboard cards. I was able to get a turn three Liliana followed by a turn four Bloodbraid into Tarmogoyf. I killed him verify quickly after that with Toxic Deluge backup for his TNN. The third game was a long and drawn out one. I got a Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf and started the beating. He killed my Dark Confidant with an Abrupt Decay and after then landed both a TNN and Meddling Mage naming Punishing Fire. After that I got a Bloodbraid Elf that cascaded into a Deathrite Shaman. I started swinging with the Elf and a very large Tarmogoyf. He finally had to block the Bloodbraid Elf with his Meddling Mage. This turned on the Grove and Punishing Fire in my hand which I killed him with in combination with Deathrite Shaman.

3-1

Round 5: Storm (2-0)

Game one I turn one Thoughtseized him on the draw after he had played a Sensei's Divining Top. He had a mediocre hand but he followed up the next turn with a gitaxian probe and a duress to ensure he could keep his hand. He found a hand with only creatures and lands on my end. My next draw was a hymn which I cast and set him back. I landed a Deathrite shaman and started taking out his graveyard to prevent the past in flames kill. He ended up cobbling together an Ad Nauseam but ended up flipping over the past in flames which brought him into range on my active Deathrite. Game two I had almost the perfect hand of discard, Null Rod, Liliana, and a Scavenging Ooze. I was able to take out his hand again and bring down ooze to control his graveyard. He again tried to go for the Ad Nauseam kill but died while trying to due to a combination of my Ooze clocking him and the Punishing Fire in my hand.

4-1

Here is my decklist:

LANDS

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
2 Bayou
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
1 Swamp

CREATURES

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang

INSTANTS and SORCERIES

4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Punishing Fire
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Lightning Bolt

OTHER SPELLS

4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library

SIDEBOARD

1 Choke
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Duress
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pernicious Deed

[aluisiocsantos]

Congrats on the great finish, specially vs Storm. The Deathblade match sounded like a tense and fun one too.
Did Tasigur show up any time? What do you think of him?

Aisde of that I really dig your list, very powerful, 4 lilys, 4 decays, it's kind of throwback-y to early jund, and it seems very consistent.

Also yay for Team Pernicious Deed!

[iamajellydonut]

Also yay for Team Pernicious Deed!

Best team!

[skyout]

Congrats on the great finish, specially vs Storm. The Deathblade match sounded like a tense and fun one too.
Did Tasigur show up any time? What do you think of him?

Aisde of that I really dig your list, very powerful, 4 lilys, 4 decays, it's kind of throwback-y to early jund, and it seems very consistent.

Also yay for Team Pernicious Deed!

I only saw Tasigur one time the whole day and it was when I was about to swing in for the win against my Deathblade opponent. If he had come a few turns earlier he could have definitely made an impact in the matchup. I may try adding one more in place of something like a Bob and see how that goes. The worst thing is drawing a second Dark Confidant or cascading into a second with one on board.

[datanaga]

Round 5: Storm (2-0)

Game one I turn one Thoughtseized him on the draw after he had played a Sensei's Divining Top. He had a mediocre hand but he followed up the next turn with a gitaxian probe and a duress to ensure he could keep his hand. He found a hand with only creatures and lands on my end. My next draw was a hymn which I cast and set him back. I landed a Deathrite shaman and started taking out his graveyard to prevent the past in flames kill. He ended up cobbling together an Ad Nauseam but ended up flipping over the past in flames which brought him into range on my active Deathrite. Game two I had almost the perfect hand of discard, Null Rod, Liliana, and a Scavenging Ooze. I was able to take out his hand again and bring down ooze to control his graveyard. He again tried to go for the Ad Nauseam kill but died while trying to due to a combination of my Ooze clocking him and the Punishing Fire in my hand.

4-1

Here is my decklist:

LANDS

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
2 Bayou
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
1 Swamp

CREATURES

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang

INSTANTS and SORCERIES

4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Punishing Fire
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Lightning Bolt

OTHER SPELLS

4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library

SIDEBOARD

1 Choke
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Duress
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pernicious Deed


There was no scavenging ooze in your list, how did you play it?:)

[skyout]

There was no scavenging ooze in your list, how did you play it?:)

Haha good point, I copied my old list not my updated one, here it is:

LANDS

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
2 Bayou
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
1 Swamp

CREATURES

3 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Scavenging Ooze

INSTANTS and SORCERIES

4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Punishing Fire
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Lightning Bolt

OTHER SPELLS

3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library

SIDEBOARD

1 Choke
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Duress
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pernicious Deed

I ended up shaving a Liliana of the Veil and a Dark Confidant for the two Scavenging Oozes. Good catch by the way!

[useL]

nvm.

[Qweerios]

I play an unusual version of Jund. I prefer a combination of Sylvan Library and Courser of Kruphix to good old Dark Confidant. I am not a big Bob fan anymore (pretty much since Delver came out) because he dies to anything that remotely looks like removal and chips away at my life total when I need it the most. Courser is amazing for several reasons but most importantly, he is great at finding cards. Courser, coupled with fetch lands, offers more manipulation than Bob and allows me to avoid drawing discard spells and helps me draw removal when needed. I love the fact that Courser gains life and has just enough toughness to survive Bolt and manage one-sided board sweeps with Toxic Deluge/Golgari Charm. The fact that it just gets exponentially better with Sylvan Library is the cherry on top.

Now that I don't play Bob anymore, I get to play awesome cards like Tombstalker and give the middle finger to all the non-white fair decks. It is also interesting to note how Thoughtseize and Toxic Deluge's life loss isn't as important now.

I have been playing Courser with Sylvan Library in Junk decks with GSZ since it was spoiled and the card is nothing to scoff at.

Another thing I don't like is playing Grove in what is essentially a black deck. I understand PFire is an important component to a Bgr midrange deck but the amount of times that a single Wasteland ends up cutting me off Lilly, Hymn, or Tombstalker is getting annoying... Plus, I've always had bad experiences with PFire against fast decks like Elves, DnT and Delver decks where PFire instead of Bolt makes me miss a crucial window of opportunity. Some examples include Delver openers with Daze/Waste preventing me from mitigating the damage, t1 Mom going unanswered, Thalia and Port/Waste cutting me off timely removal, Elves just going off t2-3 because I can't burn the t1 dork.

I understand Pfire is great against slower decks but let's not forget how amazing 4 Sinkholes out of the SB are against those decks as well!

Looking forward to your comments, thanks!

[Chatto]

@ Qweerios; interesting, would you mind sharing your 75?

[aluisiocsantos]

Indeed. I love tombstalker and would be awesome to safely run the card. Plus the extra hitpoints make for great news vs the ur/burn match. which is like the worst kind of matchup jund has. And an extra edge vs S&S/Combo, when we need that speed.

I do think that maybe the lack of P.Fire will be an issue but... 4 sinkholes? lol

[Qweerios]

4 Sinkholes out of the SB for miracles and combo decks is a great way to replace superfluous removal. They are especially good against miracles, 12 post, nic fit, high tide, SnT decks, and even storm takes a beating from t1 thoughtseize/duress into sinkhole/wasteland.

My list is simple, I play 23 lands with 4 Wastes, 2 Courser and 2 Stalkers instead of Bobs, and the rest is pretty much standard. I bring in the LD plan from the SB with 4 Sinkholes, 1 Choke, and 1 LftL.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Can anyone give any feedback/comments about using Chain$ of Mephistophele$$$$$$$$$$$, assuming there's a lot of blue in your area? I've never used it in this deck. Does it work? I assume it needs REB/Pyro as a back-up, which narrows the options?

[razvan]

Well, being an Enchantment makes it really hard to remove. Obviously does nothing when you are really behind on board, but that should rarely happen.

It often cuts out over half of their business spells, and does nothing to you (major note: Dig through Time is unaffected). Since they will draw so many useless blanks, everything becomes (at best) looting, the card, on turn 2, can win the game right there, against most of the decks.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

@razvan, have you used it in rl? What was the reaction from your opponents? I'm not sure if I would be too embarrassed to take it along to FNM!

[razvan]

Yea, last time I played Jund in a big event was Legacy Champs in Philly, and I had 2 MD, 1 SB :)

The Miracles opponents named it public enemy #1, and same for the times I got it against Treasure Cruise Delver. It was even useful against Enchantress. It is REALLY good. But 3 was simply a reaction to the Treasure Cruise meta, 1-2 would be better now.

[DOM]

The card will not win games per se, but it is a legitimate speed bump for many decks. You want it against decks that exercise card draw as a way of achieving victory, i.e. Omni-Tell, Elves, Storm, Cheerios and pretty much anything with cantrips. Chains of Mephistopheles makes it harder for your opponents to recover after discard as they now have trouble digging for answers, which strengthens your discard suite. On the other hand, Dig Through Time is a major player now and this card gets around CoM and also makes discard less decent.

Regarding Chains and FNM, it is not that hard to comprehend what the card does after reading it, though some people seem to have a hard time doing that. Still, you can always explain what it does.

[Nuke is Good]

I'm heading to GP Kyoto and I'm strongly considering bringing Jund as my deck.

I barely have touched my Jund lists since the TNN days the only addition is a singleton Goblin Rabblemaster for testing:


Main Deck (60)
Creatures (16)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Goblin Rabblemaster
3 Bloodbraid Elf
Spells (21)
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (23)
1 Forest
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
3 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
Sideboard (15)
2 Extirpate
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Golgari Charm
1 Imperial Edict
1 Life from the Loam
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Engineered Plague
2 Pernicious Deed

I have a MD Jitte due to burn being a lot more common since Eidolon's debut.

Depending on testing and what kind of decks I see actually at the GP while I'm walking around will help me figure out if I'm going with Jund or Reanimator. Strangely enough if I see a lot of Miracles players I might actually choose Reanimator over Jund as I have a lot more experience against Miracles with Reanimator.

[Tokugawa]

Depending on testing and what kind of decks I see actually at the GP while I'm walking around will help me figure out if I'm going with Jund or Reanimator. Strangely enough if I see a lot of Miracles players I might actually choose Reanimator over Jund as I have a lot more experience against Miracles with Reanimator.
It is said that Miracles, Elves and SnT are the 3 most popular “unfair” decks in Japan. Reanimator may have a better MU.

[Nuke is Good]

It is said that Miracles, Elves and SnT are the 3 most popular “unfair” decks in Japan. Reanimator may have a better MU.

Oh god that's dreadful for Jund. In the US it's chockfull of boring ass Delver/Blade decks which is great for Jund with the occasional storm deck that makes me weep.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

I'm heading to GP Kyoto and I'm strongly considering bringing Jund as my deck.

@Nuke, how is the testing? Still on the Jund path?

[Nuke is Good]

@Nuke, how is the testing? Still on the Jund path?

I'm considering adding ensnaring bridge to deal with SnT, Elves, and Reanimator. Storm is still rather miserable at my recent testings at the LGS the TES players were on a hot streak and I got T1 twice in a row. Death and Taxes is supposed to be a positive matchup for us but the one DnT player at my meta lives and breathes that deck so I have real problems against him.


And in the realm of boring ass Delver decks, I make them weep.


I'm still on the fence about what deck to use. These two decks are pretty much pimped out as well. Both feature guru lands and promo cards. Jund is foreign language while reanimator's business cards are foiled except for the fetches. Goblin Rabblemaster is amazing to flip off of a BBE. Still trying to figure out what I can trim to fit more of them in. Jund isn't Jund without BBE to me.

[Seraphix]

I'm considering adding ensnaring bridge to deal with SnT, Elves, and Reanimator. Storm is still rather miserable at my recent testings at the LGS the TES players were on a hot streak and I got T1 twice in a row. Death and Taxes is supposed to be a positive matchup for us but the one DnT player at my meta lives and breathes that deck so I have real problems against him.


And in the realm of boring ass Delver decks, I make them weep.


I'm still on the fence about what deck to use. These two decks are pretty much pimped out as well. Both feature guru lands and promo cards. Jund is foreign language while reanimator's business cards are foiled except for the fetches. Goblin Rabblemaster is amazing to flip off of a BBE. Still trying to figure out what I can trim to fit more of them in. Jund isn't Jund without BBE to me.

Picture of your deck? :wink:

I've played a Scrubland and a few White cards (2x G. Teeg, 2x Canonist) in the Jund SB before in an attempt to "fix" some of the combo matchups. Its kind of a freeroll since those decks don't have Wasteland, you just have to cut Wooded Foothills for more Bloodstained Mire/Marsh Flats. I've only played this configuration in one local tourney and some games with friends, so I don't really have enough data to make a strong argument for it.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Completely contrary to expectations, I went 4-0 at the local 30 man FNM last night. I take no credit for the results… lots of lucky top decking on my part, just at the right time, were to blame ;-)

3 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Scavenging Ooze

3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Punishing Fire
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Liliana of the Veil

2 Pyroblast

2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Badlands
3 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs

SB: 1 Choke
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Diabolic Edict
SB: 1 Grafdigger’s Cage

R1 -v- Reanimator (2-1)
Early disruption in G1 allowed enough time to get an Ooze and DRS in play to keep his graveyard in check. Goyf did the rest. His Grisel came out early in G2 so it was on to G3. Pyros blocked his cantrips from finding an Exhume or Reanimate while I chipped away his life at 2 or 3 per turn. I was expecting to lose next turn, every turn, but got there eventually. MVPs: main deck Pyros, Ooze and DRS.

R2 -v- UR Landstill (2-0)
Main deck Pyros caught him off guard in G1 and a G2 Choke was game. Oh, and BBE into Goyf isn’t too bad either.

R3 -v- UBR (Grixis) Delver (2-1)
This was very much a chess game against a canny opponent. Lost G1 to 3 (yes 3!) Delvers but Choke (I think it was backed up with a Pyro) was a game changer in G2. Won G3 after a last gasp BBE cascaded into Pyroclasm when he had 2 Delvers, a YP and two tokens in the field. Lucky, lucky, lucky.

R4 -v- Elves (2-1)
Another strategic headache. Drowned in Elves in G1. Punishing Fires and a Pyroclasm did their thing in G2 and a very close finish in G3 with another lucky BBE into Toxic Deluge. Grafdigger’s Cage was the MVP as it delayed him just enough; next turn he would have hard cast a Craterhoof. Again, lucky, lucky.

Main deck Pyros and a singleton Choke SB were a specific meta choice (always lots of blue in the room) and it paid off even though I didn’t face a Show, Omni, Storm combo. YMMV.

[aluisiocsantos]

i see you mentioned maindeck pyros a lot and yet they arent there in your list. Even so, congrats on the amazing finish!

In other news, theres a top16 jund lsit in the latest SCg with 2 Courser maindeck.

EDIT: Thanks Dice_box. I was just curious as to see how the list looked like!

[Dice_Box]

Says he has 2.

[aluisiocsantos]

AH! For some reason i kept checking the spells list and missed that entire line altogether. My bad.

[iamajellydonut]

Completely contrary to expectations, I went 4-0 at the local 30 man FNM last night. I take no credit for the results… lots of lucky top decking on my part, just at the right time, were to blame ;-)
...
2 Pyroblast
...
SB: 2 Pyroblast

Literally right there.

Edit: And, yes, aluisiocsantos, I am going to leave this here just to make you feel bad.

[defector]

Jund top 16 the 5k with Coursers in the main. Kind of an interestinf list with IoK over TS: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=82335. Nice finish not sure if I'm sold on Coursers yet but its a cool approach.

[Dice_Box]

I have played with them in modern and they did go the distance there. I did not think they have the power to be useful in Legacy though. The advatages they bring are quite strong, for the cost of giving up some Infomation you get a big ass to block with, an Enchantment to buff Goyf with, card advantage and selection that gains power with Fetchlands and life gain. All of these are useful. If I was to put together Jund and play it tonight I would be happy to add them to my list. 2 seems like a good number, seems like a good list.

Also the deck is running IoK and Thoughtseize. Its got both not one over the other.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

And, yes, aluisiocsantos, I am going to leave this here just to make you feel bad.

:cool:

[aluisiocsantos]

To make up for it I'll put this list together this weekend for a ride! ;)

[defector]

@ Dice_Box: You're right, it cut Hymns and just went with pin point discard. I'm a Hymn junkie its not a card I can cut, but it seems to have worked for him. i'm going to play around with Coursers and see what I think of them.

[ironclad8690]

Well, after a jaunt with Nic Fit and Sylvan Plug I find myself wanting to Jund again.

I like that Courser List, I may just give it a try soon. I think that 2 Libraries might be the way to go to try and captialize on the Coursers as much as possible. I also think that 1 BBE and 1 Bob are the right cuts for him, if anything.

[IAmWill]

I've been playing around with Shardless, but I feel like it's time to come home... I miss Dark Confidant haha. I was playing Lejay's Shardless list for about a year and have very strongly enjoyed playing 4 wastelands main. I was wondering if any one here had played with 4 Wastes in Jund?

If so what did your land configuration look like? Did it test well?

My main deck is pretty stock, I was thinking about fooling around with
(23) Lands
4 Groves
4 Wasteland
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire

This is cutting 1 fetchland in order to play the 4th Waste, or would it be more prudent to go to 24 lands to play the 4th wasteland? I'm curious with what other Jund players opinions are.

[aluisiocsantos]

I've been playing around with Shardless, but I feel like it's time to come home... I miss Dark Confidant haha. I was playing Lejay's Shardless list for about a year and have very strongly enjoyed playing 4 wastelands main. I was wondering if any one here had played with 4 Wastes in Jund?

If so what did your land configuration look like? Did it test well?

My main deck is pretty stock, I was thinking about fooling around with
(23) Lands
4 Groves
4 Wasteland
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire

This is cutting 1 fetchland in order to play the 4th Waste, or would it be more prudent to go to 24 lands to play the 4th wasteland? I'm curious with what other Jund players opinions are.

I usually love 4 wastelands the most, but it does require to have 24 lands indeed. The trick is to what to cut. I usually cut one of the discards down, like 1 less Hymn to Tourach. I like my removals too much.

-

In other news, junded my way in a 15-man yesterday. I was in a hurry to put the deck together so I just straight up copied the Courser list from last SCG, with the sole difference that since I own a Chain$ copy I just have to use it, so I cut one duress out for it.

Matches were Death and Taxes (win), Shardless RUG (pretty interesting deck, with both BBE and Agent, ended on a draw), Deadguy Ale (an interesting brew, runs the new prowess token making monk, really strong, I lost this round), and a more straightforward Deadguy Ale, which ended on another draw.

I had incredible trouble dealing with Batterskull - once it resolved I couldn't do much. One of the times I lost to it was on my own fault though - dude played DRS, i burned it. Then he played another and I had an option to play my own DRS or to kill his. I killed him - and then he played Stoneforge, right when I had burned all my removals..so yeah, way telegraphed and i didn't see it coming. Still, even with maindeck Maelstrom Pulse, 1 Ancient Grudge plus 4 Decays, 4 Thoughtseizes and 4 Lilianas, it comes down to luck. I was in fear of keeping a thoughtseize in hand waiting for his SFM since Deadguy also runs discards so I just had to slam them, and usually to no luck in finding the cards in their hands. Oh well.

Also what do you recommend siding out in such a match? I might of have badly sided-out (minus 3 Inquisition -probably wrong, my initial reasoning was that it couldn't discard Batterskull itself but it failed me that it CAN discard SFM, mother and everything else duh), plus ancient grudge, pithing needle and golgari charm).

EDIT: OH and Courser of Kruphix was an absolute killer. The deck gets so much speed (and breathing) from the top deck lands + hit points. I do believe that it's best played with 2 Sylvan Library since the sinergy is amazing. Courser + Bob + Sylvan = tears of joy and speed.

[Seraphix]

I had incredible trouble dealing with Batterskull - once it resolved I couldn't do much. One of the times I lost to it was on my own fault though - dude played DRS, i burned it. Then he played another and I had an option to play my own DRS or to kill his. I killed him - and then he played Stoneforge, right when I had burned all my removals..so yeah, way telegraphed and i didn't see it coming. Still, even with maindeck Maelstrom Pulse, 1 Ancient Grudge plus 4 Decays, 4 Thoughtseizes and 4 Lilianas, it comes down to luck. I was in fear of keeping a thoughtseize in hand waiting for his SFM since Deadguy also runs discards so I just had to slam them, and usually to no luck in finding the cards in their hands. Oh well.


I wouldn't lose sleep over this. As you mentioned we have a slew of answers for Batterskull but variance happens. I usually play a Krosan Grip in my sb which is another good answer and just really good in general. I see most people on Ancient Grudge, which can provide a lot of value, but Grip is more versatile and Split Second is just absurd.

[aluisiocsantos]

True that. I'll be focusing on jund for now, I'm expecting to play the legacy sideevents in upcoming brazillian granprix, this may, so i'll keep you posted.

[razvan]

I often used 1 Krosan Grip and 1 Ancient Grudge in the sideboard (alongside 1-2 Maelstrom Pulse in the 75). Usually Batterskull by itself isn't even that big a deal most of the time. Decay can kill token, 2 Punishing Fire hits kill it too. Goyfs often are bigger.

The reoccuring part is a bit of a bitch. But unless they stick it on a TNN... well, if they do, it's sorta rough.

[ironclad8690]

You guys see the Jund trial winner from Kyoto?


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Goblin Rabblemaster

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Kolaghan's Command

4 Liliana of the Veil

2 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Bayou
2 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Graven Cairns
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
2 Duress
2 Extirpate
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Slaughter Games
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Engineered Plague

[Whitefaces]

Wow, quite a change. Couldn't ever dream of playing Jund without goyfs. Might give that a spin at my LGS tomorrow night.

[razvan]

I don't like the lack of Goyfs, but I really like the idea Ohashi had. There is something to be said about a low-CC deck that runs a majority of 4-ofs. It's a lot more Radkos than Jund really (since the green is just for Shaman and Decay and SB Krosan Grips), but that's not necessarily a bad way to go.

It truly is a hateful deck with an absolutely absurd fair match-up (17 Removal), a decent combo match-up (12 Discard, the overlap being Liliana). It probably might not do exceedingly well vs. control, but that can be fixed.

Overall I am really impressed.

[ironclad8690]

I have tried brewing all sorts of decks in the Jund, Gruul, Rakdos colors, but I pretty much always find that Tarmogoyf is what the colors really want in a very broad sense. Nothing clocks like a Tarmo except for good old Delver of Secrets, and I find Goyf to be the best card against other fair decks. The only times I can see him under performing are vs decks with Young Pyromancer that have tons of token or other ways of stalling the ground or shrinking the graveyard.

When I tested with Goblin Rabblemaster, I found that he would die too frequently while only providing 1 token or no tokens, and it would always be at a tempo negative loss (that is to say that I would spend 3 mana to cast something that my opponents could easily destroy for only 1-2 mana). It felt like playing Knight of the Reliquary again, which is the main reason I switched to this deck; to avoid that feeling of investment without some sort of return. All of the other creatures in the deck don't cost much or provide instantaneous value.

I do like where this deck is coming from, but I feel as though the American and European metagames are too hostile towards small creatures to justify cutting tarmogoyf. I could see cutting bloodbraid for the purpose of streamlining your curve and maximizing your probabilities of finding cards like Hymn or extra lightning bolts, but unfortunately to do that you have to pay a pretty high cost in some area or another. Bloodbraid just helps so much vs Miracles and Shardless without really being horrible in other areas.

[Nuke is Good]

I do like where this deck is coming from, but I feel as though the American and European metagames are too hostile towards small creatures to justify cutting tarmogoyf. I could see cutting bloodbraid for the purpose of streamlining your curve and maximizing your probabilities of finding cards like Hymn or extra lightning bolts, but unfortunately to do that you have to pay a pretty high cost in some area or another. Bloodbraid just helps so much vs Miracles and Shardless without really being horrible in other areas.

Japan's meta is so bizarre so I consider them a bit of an outlier.

As much as I don't like Goyf he is an efficient beater. Goblin Rabblemaster for me has been solid but as a 1-2 of due to his mana curve in a YP heavy meta however Rabblemaster doesn't feel as good due to heavy wipes.

Bloodbraid Elf to me is what makes Jund well Jund and not aggro-loam that it branched off of. Sure you side out BBE a lot in many matchups but it is a considerable threat.

[Rizso]

Xenagos, the Reveler should be quite solid against the miracle decks.

[Nuke is Good]

Xenagos, the Reveler should be quite solid against the miracle decks.

At the 4 cmc mana slot Bloodbraid does a lot of work. Xenagos at most will do 2 damage with his 0 ability and this +1 ability is a bit irrelevant with adding mana.

BBE hits for three which usually kills a Jace and 2 for 1's. For Miracles Liliana, Jace, and Abrupt Decay are my best cards against them.

[aluisiocsantos]

I'll be rocking the Jund pain train this weekend.
I know I'm DEFINATELY running Courser in my deck, along with a second Sylvan Library. I'm right now running 61 cards, being the 61th a Tombstalker.

I've been taking a look on some decks on tcdecks. In said lists, which were mostly successfull, one of them is the one with Rabblemaster. Two of them have Tasigur. Two of them Kolaghan's Command.

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16749&iddeck=125462 (4 rabblemaster, 1 kolaghan)
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16642&iddeck=124601 (1 tasigur, also zuran orb sideboard)
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16676&iddeck=124863 (1 tasigur, 2 kolaghan)

Anybody tested any of the latter two cards? I see the discussion has been commented on Rabblemaster already, and I'm not going on this trail.

Kolaghan is neat jack of all trades, master of none. Tasigur would be easier to cast than my Tombstalker. I have yet to see the ability of his in action. 4 mana is a wee too much, isnt it?

[iGrok]

The most overlooked mode is Shatter. It can kill a Batterskull or Sword, which is pretty important when racing Stoneblade decks.

It has relevant modes against every matchup, even if they are all overcosted. I'm still waiting to see someone use instant-speed discard in response to a miracle trigger, but we can all live the dream, right? :)

[aluisiocsantos]

True enough, I guess I'm sold on the card. I just remembered Batterskull was one of the things that blew me the most the last time I played the deck.

[sdematt]

Xenagos, the Reveler should be quite solid against the miracle decks.

Yes, he's quite good.

Sure, BBE is a good card against Jace, but their deck isn't just Jace. It's also Entreat, Terminus, and infinite STP. If you think BBE is going to get their Jaces every time, you're wrong. Xenagos is excellent because he's long term damage against them, even if it's only 2 a turn. The mana doesn't matter, sure, but having a repeatable attack that survives Terminus and doesn't care about STP is pretty cool. Gaining a Goyf off BBE then losing them both to Terminus seems real cool. Not to say I'd always play Xenagos, but to brush him off so readily is not warranted.

Abrupt Decay is the best card against them? I disagree. Pithing Needle, Gaddock Teeg, Sylvan Safekeeper, Planeswalkers, Thrun, Choke/Tsunami/Armageddon, Krosan Grip, REB, Deed, and Slaughter Games are the best cards against Miracles. Decay is inconvenient, but not an excellent card. The thing is this: when you're trying to kill stuff, why not just kill it? Command is fine because it has multiple modes, I'll agree. Bringing back stuff? Not bad. A shock? All good. But, it doesn't kill Top dead, nor a Batterskull nor Counterbalance at all. Command is going to look fairly awful when you're trying to hit an Omniscience with it.

That's why I propose something like this:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Bloodbraid Elf

3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach

4 Punishing Fire
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Abrupt Decay

2 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
3 Badlands
3 Wasteland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Swamp

SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Golgari Charm/Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze

I don't think Courser is bad or wrong at all, the same with Rabblemaster. I'd be content playing 3 Rabble 1 Courser or a split like that, or shoving in a Xenagos and cutting something else.

[Neffy]

I dont like leaving home with Jund without a decent-sized package for combo decks.
Here I mean discards mainly.

My meta is rigged with combo and today I will go on a suicide mission with my Jund deck (getting a bit tired of infect) and hopefully surprice everyone.

My list will be:

2 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Punishing Fire
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sylvan Library
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge

Sideboard:
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Choke
3 Duress
1 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
2 Slaughter Games
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge

I will be trying out Inquisitions instead of hymns this time to have better openings against combo t1.
I once had a thing for running 3 swan songs in the board and 1 underground sea main/board as a surprise answer to Sneak and Show.
The meta has changed and now its all Omni and ANT, but Swan song seems fine here too. I dont care about the bird with my p.fires. At least G1.
I might be going for the swans again tonight, just not sure what to take out from the board. Do you have any suggestions?

[sdematt]

8 discard maindeck is a lot, so hopefully you get some combo players :)

I mean, red has few hatebears that are good for combo. I think you're much worse against Storm, but much better against Omni/Miracles than other BGx decks. Chains will do some work, but I just don't think it's good enough in the current meta. Omni doesn't play Enter anymore, and sure, Miracles doesn't like to see Chains, they can play around it. It's good against Griselbrand. I just like other cards right now. I see nothing super wrong with your list at all. Give it a spin and let us know!

-Matt

[Neffy]

8 discard maindeck is a lot, so hopefully you get some combo players :)

I mean, red has few hatebears that are good for combo. I think you're much worse against Storm, but much better against Omni/Miracles than other BGx decks. Chains will do some work, but I just don't think it's good enough in the current meta. Omni doesn't play Enter anymore, and sure, Miracles doesn't like to see Chains, they can play around it. It's good against Griselbrand. I just like other cards right now. I see nothing super wrong with your list at all. Give it a spin and let us know!

-Matt

I agree regarding Chains. Its rarely backbreaking, and without Enter its not as potent. I might end up cutting it, 1 games and something else for the swans. At least that stops the go-offs from combo decks..
If im lucky that also means I can fool opponents into thinking they are playing vs. grixis (sea+badlands) or bug (sea+bayou). That has happened before, and sideboarding against the wrong deck CAN be backbreaking.

Im torn though, cause pyroblast might do the same job but easier.

[aluisiocsantos]

Im torn though, cause pyroblast might do the same job but easier.

This. Remember, Swan Song can't counter Tnn, and I'm not sure I want to counter a t1 brainstorm and give them a 2/2 which will be complemented by a delver, drs or stoneforge as pfire targets. Sure, you wont board swan in a fair match but you would board pyro.

Plus pyro does work as removal if you did lose the timing to simply counter a spell.

[Rizso]

Kolgan Command can counter the miracles tho, instant discard!

[jim111589]

This. Remember, Swan Song can't counter Tnn, and I'm not sure I want to counter a t1 brainstorm and give them a 2/2 which will be complemented by a delver, drs or stoneforge as pfire targets. Sure, you wont board swan in a fair match but you would board pyro.

Plus pyro does work as removal if you did lose the timing to simply counter a spell.
Well what about flusterstorm storm instead of swan song?

[iGrok]

Well what about flusterstorm storm instead of swan song?

I'm confused, what's wrong with Pyro?

[jim111589]

I'm confused, what's wrong with Pyro?
Just for more counters. I'd think flusterstorm would be better since it creates copies

[iGrok]

Just for more counters. I'd think flusterstorm would be better since it creates copies

Often, they will be able to pay for fluster (trust me, I play blue combo ^^). Fluster shines in situations like this:

[Spell you need to counter]
[Your Counterspell]
[Their Counterspell]
[Your Flusterstorm for 4 copies] - Sometimes you can throw a Brainstorm in there for extra value!

It doesn't do so well like this:
[Spell you need to counter]
[Flusterstorm for 2 copies]
[They pay 2] OR my favorite, [They pay 1 and force the other copy]



Pyroblast being a hard counter, AND countering TNN AND countering/killing Delver, Counterbalance, Jace, Clique makes it way more scary to fight against than Flusterstorm from a non-blue deck.

But mostly, it comes down to this:

I'm pretty sure there are more must-kill/must-counter blue permanents than there are must-counter non-blue spells.

[sdematt]

^ Yes.

You don't NEED flusterstorm, realistically, if you want to increase stack based interaction, the card that does it is FoW and we're not playing it :P Plus, cascading into FS seems like bad news.

The deck has an alright combo matchup. If you're very concerned, try Mindbreak Trap.

With this list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Bloodbraid Elf

3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach

4 Punishing Fire
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Abrupt Decay

2 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
3 Badlands
3 Wasteland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Swamp

SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Golgari Charm/Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze

Your postboard against combo is like (say, Omni):

+2 Slaughter Games
+2 Grip
+3 REB
+2 Choke
+2 Duress
+1 charm

-4 Abrupt Decay
-4 Punishing Fire
-4 Bloodbraid Elf

It's enough incidental hate. For Storm:

+2 Slaughter Games
+2 Duress
+1 Charm
+2 Cage
+1 Ooze

-4 Decay
-4 BBE

[aluisiocsantos]

Went to a 65 player tourney yesterday, went 4-1 (12th place), felt nice winning a bit after a 1-1-2 last time I played.. Got 15 fate reforged boosters, which really meant a Tasigur.
Oh also the first big tourney with brand new shiny The Source playmat:
http://i.imgur.com/kHPiwzy.jpg

My list:

1 Tombstalker
2 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Courser of Kruphix

2 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Kolaghan's Command

1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize

2 Sylvan Library

3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Badlands
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs

1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Choke
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Golgari Charm
2 Pyroblast
1 Null Rod
1 Slaughter Games
2 Duress
1 Chains of Mephistofeles
1 Toxic Deluge

Matches were:

Round 1 - Goblins. Pretty straightforward, way too many removals for him to deal. I sideboarded in just Pithing Needle and Golgari Charm. I did one actual flaw at a point, in which i had the table dominated, one bob, kruphix, DRS. I know I have decay in the top due to Courser. He had Matron and Goblin Lackey. His lackey attacks. I can block with bob, I can wipe his table (and my bob) with Charm. I decide taking the hit, and he places kick-dick in game, copying Matron for piledriver. Next turn i use pithing needle on kikijikki and wait for his attack, which I name bob to block piledriver, and follow up with the charm to wipe his table. So, mistake fixed. 2-0 win.

Round 2 - Sneak Show. G1 I go for the discard but he has multiple outs for the combo. He ends up with show and tell into Emrakul. Me into Tombstalker, I lose. G2 I get to draw many hates. I shape his hand in a way he can only cast Sneak Attack in order to finish him, while he has no counters and I have Krosan + Golgari Charm to deal with both his Sneak Attacks. While that happen Tarmoboy is clocking the game. Then on G3, I almost manage to Toxic Deluge his Show and Told Emrakul, but i fail to remember his Progenitus in his hand is also a pitch for FOW. It would've been epic. 1-2 loss.

Round 3 - Death and taxes. G1 is pretty straightforward with unanswered Goyf and me having removal for every threat. G2 I go with a great hand but with shaky mana - wasteland and fetch, with a discard and mostly green hand. I go for the Bayou and discard: no wasteland on his hand, and most of his threats answerable. Except he does draw a wasteland and kills my game. On g3 it was tricky. I open with solid hand but i was never prepared for his hand: 3 mothers, thalia and brimaz. I discard brimaz, since it wouldnt make a difference to discard a mother, and a 2/1 is better to deal than a 3/4. He plays Vial. I kill vial. Now he has 2 mothers, a revoker naming DRS and later Thalia. I draw a Maelstrom Pulse (PERFECT) and land a Liliana, and discard - i place an ancient grudge on the GY. In his turn he taps one mother for Thalia to attack Liliana. In my turn, I try playing Ancient Grudge from the GY to destroy his Revoker - truly a pitch for his mother. He taps her for protection. I use Lilianas sac and he SACS THALIA, which leaves me to exact mana to play Maesltrom Pulse. Eat the rich moms! Next turn I play Goyd and get back in the game for the win. 2-1 win!!

Round 4 - BURN. My brother, who played Led Dredge, had just beaten him, and I was in tension since it's a sucky matchup for Jund. Plus, since my younger brother beat him, now I also had to. I win g1 with a relentless Goyf and DRS backing me up on hit points. On g2 I die for greedy protection of POP. I start by discarding his Pyrostatic Pillar on a Stick, and see the POP there. So when I'm low in life, i do the mistake of playing wasteland and destroying my own boyou, to which he responds with pop, leaving me to 2 HP, instead of 4. Next thing he draws? A bolt, sure. G3 had me discarding him again at a point in which he had POP again.. and Ensnaring Bridge. It just had to go. I had Kruphix, Goyf and BOB in play. I just kep the aggresion, and the lifegain of Kruphix helped buckets. 2-1 Win!

Round 5 - RUG Delver. I have a risky hand, much like the one I had against D&T - wasteland, fetch, DRS. One wasteland and I'd be in bad situation, though DRS could certainly help me, but hey, it's RUG and Forked and Lightning Bolts are things. I mulligan, and go with a worse hand - 2 Kruphix, 2 Lilianas and 2 Badlands. I just keep hoping i draw lands. Instead, he wastelands my first land. I draw a wasteland and I just decide destroying his single land - but I get stifled. He eventually beats me up. I side out Kruphix and side in I think Toxic Deluge (for the Mangoose and multiple creature casting) and Chains of Mephistopheles. I start with a removal filled and and a Bob. He kills it, and we keep a boring game with him full of cantrips and burns, an me with tons of removals. He plays a goyf, I kill it. i play one and it sticks. maybe its the dazes, but i have the mana. Win. On g3 I stick a Chains early in the game and I dunno if it helped but he never casted any cantrip. BBE and Goyf going for the kill. 2-1 win!

Not a stellar result since most wins are good matchups, but I just wish I had a little more luck in the third game and it would be enough to win the Sneak Show match.
I really like the deck is setup right now. The only thing I know is that since I just got a Tasigur out of a booster pack I just feel I'll have to try it out next time. Oh, and Kruphix continues being stellar. He can accelerate a lot, and I don't even want to mention it in companion with Sylvan Library, it gets bonkers! Plus helps with the life problem Jund players usually face with Thoughtseizes, Bobs and multiple fetches.

Untested:
Tombstalker - Didn't show up this time.
Kolaghan's Command - The one time he showed up in my hand he ended up as Liliana's food :(

[Lormador]

I've been intrigued with this deck since seeing that GP Kyoto trial winner with Rabblemaster instead of Tarmogoyfs. I have a deep, spiritual loathing for Goyf, so I was happy to see a Jund variant that I could live with. Naturally, I've been testing it out to see whether it's worth acquiring the few cards I do not yet own to play the deck live.

Kolaghan's Command has been a very enjoyable part of the deck, sort of like Hymn to Tourach in that it's always a 2-for-1... with the extra mana giving it the potential to affect stuff on the board and not just the hand. The deck without Tarmogoyf definitely benefits from another way to kill a Batterskull, which totally outclasses all of its creatures and can even turn into a lifelink liability with those Rabblemaster tokens swinging in uncontrollably.

[DOM]

As far as I know Goblin Rabblemaster is considered as a subpar replacement for Tarmogoyf. The reasoning behind Gaku Ohashi's success with it was that the metagame in Japan features fewer ways to get rid of creatures with such little toughness as Goblin Rabblemaster. In any other setting Tarmogoyf is superior.

Kolaghan's Command is quite interesting, except that its mana cost seems worrisome.

[Nuke is Good]

As far as I know Goblin Rabblemaster is considered as a subpar replacement for Tarmogoyf. The reasoning behind Gaku Ohashi's success with it was that the metagame in Japan features fewer ways to get rid of creatures with such little toughness as Goblin Rabblemaster. In any other setting Tarmogoyf is superior.

Kolaghan's Command is quite interesting, except that its mana cost seems worrisome.


Monastery Mentor made a sizable impact in Kyoto,so I imagine they'll adapt like how the meta responded to Young Pyromancer running amok by adding things like pyroclasms. This kind of response will cause Rabblemaster to fall out of favor.