[Deck] Jund

[Wasteland]

Hi there,
from Dreadstill over Maverick over D&T i'm no on giving Jund a try (since noone else plays this well synergized deck in Germany anymore). I'm on a quite classic build but have some questions about it...
1. the build:

//lands
4x verdant catacombs
2x bloodstained mire
2x wooded foothills
4x grove of the burnwillow
3x wasteland
3x badland
3x bayou
1x swamp
1x forest

//creatures
4x deathrite shaman
4x tarmogoyf
4x dark confidant
3x bloodbraid elf
1x scavenging ooze

//other spells
3x lightning bolt
3x punishing fire
4x abrupt decay
2x Inquisition of kozilek
2x thoughtseize
3x hymn to tourach
3x Liliana of the veil
1x Umezawa's jitte

//SB
2x duress
2x surgical extraction
2x pyroblast
2x slaughter games
2x grafdigger's Cage
2x pithing needle
2x golgari charm
1x <flex slot>

MD seems quite fix now and no, i'm not going to play courser of kruphix in combination with sylvan library - it costs too much slots and pressure in my opinion... but: Is 1 maelstrom better then the 4. decay? Someone tested it? Are the Hymns still up to date or is more cc1 removal just better? (only 15 black sources without the deathrites)
For the board... I'm quite comfortable with the 14 2ofs though i can't find for chokes, which i rly would like... but i see that slaughter games goes all the way home in more mu's then choke does... Concerning the last slot: i thought about a life from the loam, an ancient grudge, a 3. pyroblast, a krosan grip or even a 3. slaughter games in miracle / s&t-heavy metas. What do you think?

Greetz from Germany,
Marius Hausmann

[aluisiocsantos]

It's okay if you don't like Courser but do consider playing one copy of Sylvan Library at least, it WILL change the tide of the battle in your favor, coupled with fetchlands and dark confidant.

I personally like having one Maelstrom Pulse available, it can destroy most threats, though its sorcery speed, but also deal with multiple tokens if needed and batterskull.

As for the slot I'd have Krosan Grip: uncounterable by traditional means, and works against many decks, whether it be stoneforge, miracles or sneak attack.

I particularly also like Null Rod to deal with artifacts to go along, as it affects the non blue interactions such as making sensei top and aether vial useless.

[DOM]

I second on Sylvan Library and Maelstrom Pulse. So far you could do: -1 Lightning Bolt, -1 Abrupt Decay, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 Maelstrom Pulse.

Moving further, it is better to have a playset of Thoughtseizes rather than a 2-2 split between them and IoKs. Thoughtseize can discard everything aside from lands, which means that you can get rid of cards like these: Sneak Attack, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Batterskull, Force of Will, Keranos, Tendrils of Agony, Ad Nauseam, various cards from Nic Fit, etc. As you can see, TS does a lot in S&T and Miracles filled meta. The downside of losing two lives is not really a downside whilst compared with the restrictions of Inquisition of Kozilek. It only matters in Burn matchup, which is a lost cause anyway. So: -2 IoK, +2 TS

One more thing, you would be much happier with a playset of Lilianas as she works wonders in this deck. Try moving Umezawa's Jitte to the sideboard for the fourth Liliana of the Veil since Jitte is not that great with only 16 creatures and you only want it in some particular matchups, whereas Liliana gets rarely boarded out. -1 Umezawa's Jitte, +1 Liliana of the Veil.

Lastly, I would suggest replacing two Wooded Foothills with Bloodstained Mires as getting a Swamp is more important than Forest. -2 Wooded Foothills, +2 Bloodstained Mire.

As for the sideboard, it is usually built according to the player's preference and you seem to have most of the things covered in there. -1 <flex slot>, +1 Umezawa's Jitte.

P.S. Yes, Hymn to Tourach is still a good card that always does something when cast and can randomly win you games.

[Whitefaces]

Agree with everything DOM said, wise words.

I'm a big fan of a couple of Pernicious Deeds in the sideboard, they make the Miracles matchup so much easier while having a huge impact in a good number of other matchups too.

[Wasteland]

K taking the library in for the ooze i guess... For bloodstained mire over woodeds you are right too i guess - but every black fetchland fits in then^^ For the ful playset of Lilianas i just don't have the place cause i love the 1of Jitte - even if it's countered or destroyed it lets the goyf grow more (same true for library of course)
I like the split of Inquisition / TS not only cause of burn but cause of confidant against faster decks - most of the time you just can spare the life, for the other mu's the 2 additional duress in the board are already waiting.

[Seraphix]

Agree with everything DOM said, wise words.

I'm a big fan of a couple of Pernicious Deeds in the sideboard, they make the Miracles matchup so much easier while having a huge impact in a good number of other matchups too.

I've been thinking of trying Deed in the slot I currently have Deluge. Do you think 1x Deed is better than 1x Deluge in the board?

[aluisiocsantos]

I used to run Deed before, and while I don't currently I enjoyed the card. A resolved one literally nullifies Entreat the Angels. It can swipe tokens as well as an adversary table, in case you get in bad waters vs dnt or elves. Deluge works similarly, but it can hit bigger creatures such as Emrakul, plus at a lower cost/cascadeable from BBE.

[ironclad8690]

Went 3-0 in my weekly tournament last night.


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Punishing Fire
4 Liliana of the Veil

2 Bayou
3 Badlands
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
2 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pyroblast
1 Choke
2 Duress
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pithing Needle


Round 1: Omnishow

Game 1: This is a strange game, I don't find any discard an instead have a super creature heavy draw. I establish Bob first in hopes to draw discard, and I get nervous when I draw ALL of my tarmogoyfs instead. He resolves multiple ponders, dig through times, and impulse, but he can't piece together the combo and my creatures just destroy him.

Bring in discard + golgari charms + pyroblast + choke, board out all removal except for 1 lightning bolt

Game 2: I get a good discard/pyroblast hand, and I shred him while establishing a board presence. He gets locked under lili and can't get all the pieces in his hand.

1-0

Round 2: UWr Blade

Game 1: I tempo him while he can't remove any of my threats.

Bring in 1 Pyrobalst, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Choke, and 1 Ancient Grudge, board out 1 abrupt decay, 1 Thoughtseize, 1 Hymn, 1 Lightning Bolt (still not exactly sure how to board for this matchup, but I have been winning it so I think this is fine)

Game 2: He Supreme Verdicts my board of Goyf, Bob, DRS. I draw no more action and lose to his jitte'd batterskull

Bring in Abrupt decay 4, board out golgari charm

Game 3: Turn 3 Choke keeps him locked for mana and I topdeck well. Thanks Choke!

2-0

Round 3: Death and Taxes

Game 1: He beats me up for a while with a serra avenger until I am at like 8 life, but I eventually draw a critical mass of removal and stop him in his tracks with 4 large tarmogoyfs.

Bring in: 1 Ancient Grudge, 2 Golgari Charm, 1 Toxic Deluge, 1 Umezawa's Jitte Board out: 2 Thoughtseize, 3 Hymn to Tourach.

Game 2: I get an early liliana thanks to Deathrite Shaman and make him sac his thalia. I do not tick up lili the following turns, because I am afraid of Wilt-Leaf Liege. I eventually draw the Punishing Grove Combo and remove all of his threats while I beat with Bob + Bloodbraid.

3-0

After this match my friend says that I should have been ticking up liliana, but my opponent reveals a Wilt Leaf from his hand (it was there from the start, but I kept his mana low with wasteland). I say that I felt like it would have turned the tide in his favor, and I purposefully did not tick up, but I guess after a certain point I would have been able to double punishing fire the Liege.

Thanks for reading.

[aluisiocsantos]

Congrats on the neat finish! I was going to ask about why board out toughtseize vs Blade, but then you said you weren't sure yourself.
IMO it''s a keep since it's extra SFM removal and also Batterskull discard. But I guess you won anyway so congrats on that.
Also, I've fell for the Liliana into Wilt Leaf once, and it's NOT nice :( It's like show and tell into emrakul, almost haha. (In my case it was a turn 2 thing- drs into liliana and then practically scoop).

[DOM]

K taking the library in for the ooze i guess... For bloodstained mire over woodeds you are right too i guess - but every black fetchland fits in then^^ For the ful playset of Lilianas i just don't have the place cause i love the 1of Jitte - even if it's countered or destroyed it lets the goyf grow more (same true for library of course)
I like the split of Inquisition / TS not only cause of burn but cause of confidant against faster decks - most of the time you just can spare the life, for the other mu's the 2 additional duress in the board are already waiting.

Right you are, any black fetch will do the trick. In fact, if you were to replace your Bloodstained Mires with Polluted Deltas, you could bluff BUG Delver or Shardless BUG until you play some Jund-related land, i.e. Badlands, Grove of the Burnwillows, or cast a red spell. Still, making them play around Daze for the first few turns is quite nice.

Regarding the discard split, suit yourself, though a playset of TS is still a better option :p


I've been thinking of trying Deed in the slot I currently have Deluge. Do you think 1x Deed is better than 1x Deluge in the board?

I was going to declare that I view Pernicious Deed as an underpowered card, but from my experience it is still better than Toxic Deluge in this deck. Both are bad for affecting both battlefields, but Deed does more when you pop it and does not prey on your life total.

@Ironclad8690, congratulations on your results. But why no Sylvan Library?

[DudeItsCorey]

I was going to declare that I view Pernicious Deed as an underpowered card, but from my experience it is still better than Toxic Deluge in this deck. Both are bad for affecting both battlefields, but Deed does more when you pop it and does not prey on your life total.

Deed is a lot slower than Deluge and could hit permanents you don't want it to (I.E. Sylvan Library, Pithing Needle/Null Rod) and can go under Goyf if that's what you're looking to do. The only deck I would say that Deed is better for is Miracles, but we have such a great matchup anyways it's not a big deal.

[DOM]

Deed is a lot slower than Deluge and could hit permanents you don't want it to (I.E. Sylvan Library, Pithing Needle/Null Rod) and can go under Goyf if that's what you're looking to do. The only deck I would say that Deed is better for is Miracles, but we have such a great matchup anyways it's not a big deal.

True, but out of the two Pernicious Deed seems better, but not an auto-include, though. Toxic Deluge is much more better in Shardless BUG.

Anyway, I would love to give Kolaghan's Command a shot, but can not find room for it. Any ideas about what I could remove from my 75 to add 1-2 Commands? Or should I just do not bother with the card?

Main Board

Creatures(15):

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

Spells(22):

4 Thoughtseize
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Lands(23):

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland

Sideboard

3 Duress
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Engineered Plague
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Golgari Charm
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Scavening Ooze
1 Ancient Grudge

Now I will mention this possibly obvious candidate that I am not willing to remove to avoid this discussion:

Life from the Loam - the card has been quite good for me for the most part. It fits well in Jund and works just as good.

Possibly cutable, but I am not yet sure whether KC is better:

Rakdos Charm - usable versus Affinity and works as a graveyard hate. Basically, this one card can be used to fight two very different strategies (and there are many various graveyard-based decks), so I like it just because it works like a 15th and 16th sideboard card. Command might be better for the Affinity matchup, though, but I am afraid to go down on the grave hate.

Damn, there are so many cards I would like to add to the sideboard... >.<

On a slightly different note, should I add the 3rd Bayou and what should I cut for it (either a fetch or a forest)?

[Neffy]

Im suprised how many people run 4 copies of Grove otBW..
I know the p.fire combo is really good for us, but I've always went with only 3 because of mana inconsistencies.
It sucks a lot to open hands with forest+waste+grove as lands and discard/liliana? It has happened to me quite often, and since i cant cut basics, i chose to remove 1 Grove.
Thoughts?

[DudeItsCorey]

True, but out of the two Pernicious Deed seems better, but not an auto-include, though. Toxic Deluge is much more better in Shardless BUG.

Anyway, I would love to give Kolaghan's Command a shot, but can not find room for it. Any ideas about what I could remove from my 75 to add 1-2 Commands? Or should I just do not bother with the card?

Main Board

Creatures(15):

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

Spells(22):

4 Thoughtseize
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Lands(23):

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland

Sideboard

3 Duress
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Engineered Plague
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Golgari Charm
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Scavening Ooze
1 Ancient Grudge

Now I will mention this possibly obvious candidate that I am not willing to remove to avoid this discussion:

Life from the Loam - the card has been quite good for me for the most part. It fits well in Jund and works just as good.

Possibly cutable, but I am not yet sure whether KC is better:

Rakdos Charm - usable versus Affinity and works as a graveyard hate. Basically, this one card can be used to fight two very different strategies (and there are many various graveyard-based decks), so I like it just because it works like a 15th and 16th sideboard card. Command might be better for the Affinity matchup, though, but I am afraid to go down on the grave hate.

Damn, there are so many cards I would like to add to the sideboard... >.<

On a slightly different note, should I add the 3rd Bayou and what should I cut for it (either a fetch or a forest)?

You could cut Life from the Loam and 1 Lily. I find that four can be excessive. Even though it's one of the best cards in the deck, drawing multiples can be bad when you need action and it can be too slow for combo decks. Life from the Loam is only really good for two reasons: Reoccuring Wasteland and recovering from being wastelanded. The problem with Loam today is that the two major decks right now are Omnitell and Miracles. Both play a high number of basics and no wastelands. Therefore, I would keep Loam on the sideboard for the matchups that it's relevant. I would still only run 1 Kolaghan's Command and add a second Sylvan Library. Some players don't understand how great of a card Library is. It is green's brainstorm. I would run a 2 of in any green deck that doesn't have blue in it.

For your sideboard, Rakdos charm isn't that great. Between Scooze, Grafdigger's Cage, 2x Surgical and 4 main board deathrites, your graveyard hate is fine. If you're scared of Affinity then put Null Rod on the sideboard. Which is also great against equipment decks and miracles. Null Rod actually prevents them from tapping their lands, which is really awesome. I am not a fan of Engineered Plague. Between Golgari Charm and 1 of Toxic deluge you should be fine. The Deluge you can use against Affinity as well to restart the board, it can also hit hexproof mongoose and in dire straights an Emerkul or even Progenitus (which has won me a game against elves). If you're against that I would still play Deed over the E.Plague. Still the point of both those effects is to take care of Elves and TNN. in which case, Golgari Charm and Deluge are still better because they hit wirewood symbiote.

[Seraphix]

Im suprised how many people run 4 copies of Grove otBW..
I know the p.fire combo is really good for us, but I've always went with only 3 because of mana inconsistencies.
It sucks a lot to open hands with forest+waste+grove as lands and discard/liliana? It has happened to me quite often, and since i cant cut basics, i chose to remove 1 Grove.
Thoughts?

I believe 4 Groves to be correct mainly due to Wasteland insurance since most of the matchups Punishing Grove is good in are Wasteland matchups.

DOM, I haven't seen this choice often recently but I cut the basic Forest for the 3rd Bayou. I don't think 2 basics is significantly better than 1 and having different fetchlands that can't fetch both basics can be annoying. By cutting the basic Forest you can just play Black fetches that get every fetchable land in the deck. Our color requirements (consistent BB) are steep so I don't think the marginal benefit of the basic Forest outweighs its cost.

[DudeItsCorey]

I believe 4 Groves to be correct mainly due to Wasteland insurance since most of the matchups Punishing Grove is good in are Wasteland matchups.

DOM, I haven't seen this choice often recently but I cut the basic Forest for the 3rd Bayou. I don't think 2 basics is significantly better than 1 and having different fetchlands that can't fetch both basics can be annoying. By cutting the basic Forest you can just play Black fetches that get every fetchable land in the deck. Our color requirements (consistent BB) are steep so I don't think the marginal benefit of the basic Forest outweighs its cost.

I'm going to have to strongly disagree. Against certain decks it is imperative to not get behind on lands and stay in tempo. Going in blind game 1 I almost always fetch for a basic land first. In fact I would argue that it may be correct to go to 2 Swamp and 1 Forest. Mountains don't matter because all your non-basics become mountains in the face of Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon. Not that they show up often, but its better to ensure that there won't be a total blowout if you can prevent it.

[DOM]

You could cut Life from the Loam and 1 Lily. I find that four can be excessive. Even though it's one of the best cards in the deck, drawing multiples can be bad when you need action and it can be too slow for combo decks. Life from the Loam is only really good for two reasons: Reoccuring Wasteland and recovering from being wastelanded. The problem with Loam today is that the two major decks right now are Omnitell and Miracles. Both play a high number of basics and no wastelands. Therefore, I would keep Loam on the sideboard for the matchups that it's relevant. I would still only run 1 Kolaghan's Command and add a second Sylvan Library. Some players don't understand how great of a card Library is. It is green's brainstorm. I would run a 2 of in any green deck that doesn't have blue in it.

For your sideboard, Rakdos charm isn't that great. Between Scooze, Grafdigger's Cage, 2x Surgical and 4 main board deathrites, your graveyard hate is fine. If you're scared of Affinity then put Null Rod on the sideboard. Which is also great against equipment decks and miracles. Null Rod actually prevents them from tapping their lands, which is really awesome. I am not a fan of Engineered Plague. Between Golgari Charm and 1 of Toxic deluge you should be fine. The Deluge you can use against Affinity as well to restart the board, it can also hit hexproof mongoose and in dire straights an Emerkul or even Progenitus (which has won me a game against elves). If you're against that I would still play Deed over the E.Plague. Still the point of both those effects is to take care of Elves and TNN. in which case, Golgari Charm and Deluge are still better because they hit wirewood symbiote.

Thanks for your suggestions.

I will indeed think about removing Rakdos Charm from the sideboard. However, in order to feel comfortable while doing so I would also like to swap the Scooze with a better graveyard hate as exiling a card on turn three is not good at all (Scooze was there mainly for Burn matchup and as an extra yet not the main grave hate - it does its job after other gy hate cards have done theirs). Perhaps I will add a Nihil Spellbomb which can also be used against decks with Punishing Fire and/or Loam.

As for the other sideboard suggestions, Null Rod interferes with Umezawa's Jitte, which I may intend to bring versus equipment decks and Affinity, so I am less inclined to add it. Engineered Plague is quite handy versus Elves for staying on the board and thus preventing them from recovering. Same applies for taking care of TNN for the whole game (or as long as Plague stays on the battlefield). What is more, Engineered Plague is quite handy versus D&T and versus some less popular decks that occasionally appear in my metagame, i.e. Goblins and Faeries (FNS, Counterbalance or that Flusterstorm something something). I tried both Pernicious Deed and Toxic Deluge but was not entirely pleased with them. Both usually harmed me nearly as much as my opponent and losing life from TC is not very appealing either (though Toxic Deluge rocks in Shardless BUG). Instead I run 2 Plagues because they aid in the previously mentioned matchups and it is usually a victory if I manage to have them both on board versus Elves and D&T (and I usually do not bring more than one EP from SB versus TNN decks).

Regarding the main board, I have never even thought about reducing the amount of Lilianas as she is quite handy in most matchups and she is definitely better than Kolaghan's Command. As for the LftL, my meta features a huge diversity of various decks - just a few decks are played by more than one player, which means that there is a fair share of matchups where Loam shines. Also, it is good with Liliana to prevent myself from having to discard removal by discarding recurred lands instead and Loam also helps to assemble the Punishing Fire engine.

Of course, two Sylvan Libraries are better than one, but it is a card that does nothing the turn I cast it and I do not want to draw multiples, thus I would rather have the second copy in the sideboard (as I do in Shardless BUG).

So, currently the potential changes are: -1 Scooze +1 another GY hate ; -1 Rakdos Charm +1 Kolaghan's Command / Sylvan Library

Library is tempting, but aside of that I harbor doubts whether such changes are worthy to be made.


Im suprised how many people run 4 copies of Grove otBW..
I know the p.fire combo is really good for us, but I've always went with only 3 because of mana inconsistencies.
It sucks a lot to open hands with forest+waste+grove as lands and discard/liliana? It has happened to me quite often, and since i cant cut basics, i chose to remove 1 Grove.
Thoughts?

Grove provides incredible advantage of recurable Punishing Fire whilst providing little to none disadvantages. We have 6 black mana sources complemented with 8-10 fetchlands and 4 Deathrites (as well as a 1off LftL, if you play it) to ensure that having black mana would not be a problem, whereas we are less needy for green, so having a Grove on board in addition to few Badlands and one another green mana source is not a bad thing as 2 green mana is usually plenty (1 is usually enough, but one should be cautions of Wastelands).

[DudeItsCorey]

Thanks for your suggestions.

I will indeed think about removing Rakdos Charm from the sideboard. However, in order to feel comfortable while doing so I would also like to swap the Scooze with a better graveyard hate as exiling a card on turn three is not good at all (Scooze was there mainly for Burn matchup and as an extra yet not the main grave hate - it does its job after other gy hate cards have done theirs). Perhaps I will add a Nihil Spellbomb which can also be used against decks with Punishing Fire and/or Loam.

As for the other sideboard suggestions, Null Rod interferes with Umezawa's Jitte, which I may intend to bring versus equipment decks and Affinity, so I am less inclined to add it. Engineered Plague is quite handy versus Elves for staying on the board and thus preventing them from recovering. Same applies for taking care of TNN for the whole game (or as long as Plague stays on the battlefield). What is more, Engineered Plague is quite handy versus D&T and versus some less popular decks that occasionally appear in my metagame, i.e. Goblins and Faeries (FNS, Counterbalance or that Flusterstorm something something). I tried both Pernicious Deed and Toxic Deluge but was not entirely pleased with them. Both usually harmed me nearly as much as my opponent and losing life from TC is not very appealing either (though Toxic Deluge rocks in Shardless BUG). Instead I run 2 Plagues because they aid in the previously mentioned matchups and it is usually a victory if I manage to have them both on board versus Elves and D&T (and I usually do not bring more than one EP from SB versus TNN decks).

Of course, two Sylvan Libraries are better than one, but it is a card that does nothing the turn I cast it and I do not want to draw multiples, thus I would rather have the second copy in the sideboard (as I do in Shardless BUG).

Library is tempting, but aside of that I harbor doubts whether such changes are worthy to be made.



To me Scooze is probably one of the best graveyard hates in the game for a green deck. Against dredge, you usually have to rely on turn 1 deathrite (or cage and just win) to slow them down then if you can get scooze going, you win the game. It can eat bridges and multiple creatures. It also overlaps for even more important purposes. I.E. Deathrite stack battles, keeping opponents off Delve, Shrinking Goyf, stopping Snapcaster Mage flashback, Eating Lingering Souls, Upping life against Burn, Keeping Mongoose and Cabal Ritual off of threshold, eating up spells in response to past in flame, etc.

My experience, Jitte's soul purpose is to fight burn, which is probably our worst matchup. Why would you need to bring in jitte against Death and Taxes, Faeries, Affinity, etc. that the punishing fire combo/Bolt/Abrupt Decay/Lily can't already take care of? Null Rod stops D&T's Vial, which is super important against them as then they have to tap their lands for mana, not rishadan port you down and rethink if they should wasteland you. Null Rod also overlaps into gibbing their equipment too. It again completely shuts down Infinity, even to the point where they can't even tap their lands because they're artifacts. Lastly, which is probably most important, It stops LED. Which is really relevant in the Dredge and Storm matchups.

With regards to Toxic Deluge it can, like you said, hit creatures that plague just can't. Also, in the elves matchup, Engineered Plague is really not that great. Again Wirewood Symbiote is the most important creature to gib, which is not an elf and it's not like you're going to call insect. I use to run Engineered Plague and I have been combo through by the opponet using Natural Order on Dryad Arbor/Wirewood/Deathrite/Nettle Sentinel for Progenitus many of time. Again, you could probably just up Golgari Charm for the same effect if you're really against Toxic Deluge. TNN isn't that huge of an issue for our deck. We have discard and Lily sac to deal. I wouldn't bring in a Engineered Plague for a single card. However, Toxic Deluge can overlap by wiping their board whether it be Merfolk or Stoneblade. With all the lords in the tribal decks (besides elves), engineered plague doesn't do enough.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

A combination of Choke and/or Chains of Mephistopheles seems to be the norm in the SB. My question to the Choke players.... would you prefer them to be Chains instead? My simple thinking (ignoring $$) is that they both perform the same basic function (anti-blue) but the 2 mana for Chains is better. Or is it more complex than that?

[sdematt]

You forget that Chains doesn't do as much as you think it does. I've cut the card because, I feel, it doesn't do enough. Choke has WAY higher impact.

-Matt

[Neffy]

You forget that Chains doesn't do as much as you think it does. I've cut the card because, I feel, it doesn't do enough. Choke has WAY higher impact.

-Matt

I agree. With the rise of DTT, chains have become much worse :(

[DudeItsCorey]

A combination of Choke and/or Chains of Mephistopheles seems to be the norm in the SB. My question to the Choke players.... would you prefer them to be Chains instead? My simple thinking (ignoring $$) is that they both perform the same basic function (anti-blue) but the 2 mana for Chains is better. Or is it more complex than that?

Chains is really only for Elves and Storm to stop them from netting card advantage and comboing. Choke is to battle Patriot, Omni, Miracles. If you play like a Grixis or UR Omni that still plays enter the infinite then i would board in Chains.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Chains is really only for Elves and Storm to stop them from netting card advantage and comboing. Choke is to battle Patriot, Omni, Miracles. If you play like a Grixis or UR Omni that still plays enter the infinite then i would board in Chains.

Hmmm.. so you wouldn't use Chains against OmniTell, to stop their cantrip nonsense one or two turns earlier than Choke, before they get to Dig?

[DudeItsCorey]

Hmmm.. so you wouldn't use Chains against OmniTell, to stop their cantrip nonsense one or two turns earlier than Choke, before they get to Dig?

No because it's doesn't outright stop them from finding their combo pieces with Ponder, Preordain, Cunning Wish, or Dig. With Storm and Elves they're all about chaining spells together and Chains stops that part of their combo. Against Omni I would rather have access to Sylvan Library to find the necessary combo hate. You can slow them down and hit them with surgical or I actually use Slaughter Games right now.

[sdematt]

Chains never was great against Omni. It was only relevant against Enter the Infinite, but even then, as long as they had at least 3 in hand, they could play around it.

Sure, it mucks up the setup, but Dig doesn't draw cards, and Dig is the most powerful spell. It only truly nugs Brainstorm the hardest. I think the way to go is run Games, REB, Choke, and discard, then pray.

-Matt

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Well, in that case, I'll cancel my order for 2 Chains ;-)

[sdematt]

Honestly, save yourself the money.

-Matt

[aluisiocsantos]

Chains has often won me matches against greedy players that based their hands depending on cantrips, but I agree it's not a card that's good on it's own, something like Choke effectively is. I say you should get it if it's for a good price, but otherwise, nothing espectacular will happen to your MUs anyway.

[sdematt]

Sure, if you pick the thing up for $100, then yes, get it. BUT, I think people overvalue how good the card is or what it does. IF the card had flash, then we'd be talking. Or, if it prevented the extra draw instead of forcing a discard first.

[DOM]

Sure, Chains of Mephistopheles is overpriced*, but I would not dismiss the card if this argument is not important to you.

Jund is not a deck that wins by assembling a 2 card combo like Omni-Tell. With Jund you cast spells and deploy various threats one by one, hoping that a combination of them will be too much for your opponent to handle. What is more, cards in Jund have quite a synergy with each other as you aim to deal with the threats on board with removal and discard the opposing threats that can not be dealt this way. We side out discard in the matchups where removal is enough, whilst we side in more discard in the matchups were removal plays a less important role.

Chains of Mephistopheles is not a card that can win per se, however if you back it up with enough discard it becomes a truly significant obstacle, screwing your opponent's plans. In the matchups were discard is not as important, Chains of Mephistopheles is still decent since it shuts down Brainstorms, thus your opponent deploys less creatures for you to destroy, which is not a bad thing either. All in all, CoM is a card that makes the day of a blue mage worse (and ruins the day for Elf lovers as well).

Choke, on the other hand, only supports our Wasteland plan, which is not the main route for achieving victory. In fact, Wasteland is here mainly to deal with the problematic lands rather than screw your opponent (though sometimes it happens). What is more, deploying a Choke does not cause instant victory as well since your opponent can still draw lands as well as tools for dealing with this enchantment. I have faced Choke with Shardless BUG quite a few times and despite it choked my resources for a while, I managed to recover most of the time. BUG Delver can Decay Coke too. Miracles have Council's Judgment and Plains, so even a resolved Choke is still not the end of the world. Omni-Tell can still assemble a Sol Land and an Island for Show and Tell and so on. Sure, Choke is a stick in their wheels, but it breaks with relative ease. Sure, CoM does not impact the game on its own either, but it works more with other cards we have. On the other hand, in the right setting Choke can be as backbreaking as Chains of Mephistopheles.

All in all, both cards are decent, though CoM seems more synergistic.

*I for one am quite fond of having old expensive things.

[lavafrogg]

What happened to jund?

What killed it? Miracles?

[sdematt]

This build kills Miracles decently well:

SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 2 Tsunami

3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Thoughtseize
4 Punishing Fire
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
3 Badlands
3 Wasteland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Sylvan Library
3 Hymn to Tourach

Problem is, most of the BGx decks fall behind because discard is, as before, not good against Dig and our manipulation is worse. Sylvan allows us to *almost* keep up. Omni is REALLY fast, and depending on their hands, our hate doesn't work.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

Makes sense, is any non blue disruption fast enough though? Hate bears and counters seem to be about it, which is sad.

[sdematt]

In all honesty, it seems like it isn't. There have been times I get a Thoughtseize countered (or they have Leyline), I get SnT with Grip open to get them, but they have Emrakul instead. Frustrating, to say the least.

-Matt

[Whitefaces]

With the presence of combo I might try running an Underground Sea and a set of Swan Songs in the board. Hitting from two angles (discard plus permission) is pretty effective. We could run Flusterstorm too...and brainstorm :P

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

With the presence of combo I might try running an Underground Sea and a set of Swan Songs in the board. Hitting from two angles (discard plus permission) is pretty effective. We could run Flusterstorm too...and brainstorm :P

aaaannnnnnd then we're playing Shardless ;-)

[Whitefaces]

aaaannnnnnd then we're playing Shardless ;-)

Well I wouldn't run Swan Song or Flusterstorm in Shardless...but yeah, that was the gist of my joke :)

I don't think Swan Song should be ignored though, it could be quite effective. Most Omni decks have dropped the leylines (which I agree with from their pov), but some still run them and if it sticks we're pretty much racing our creatures vs their combo. I don't fancy those chances.

[DOM]

What happened to jund?

What killed it? Miracles?

Miracles was never a problem and still is manageable albeit more challenging due to the introduction of Dig Through Time and Council's Judgment.

What happened, though, is a.) Shardless BUG, which is pretty much a Jund+, b.) Dig Through Time weakened discard strategies significantly and c.) Combo is still a problem, d.) Unlike Shardless BUG, Jund is not a Blue deck, which means no cantrips and counterspells are available, which is a huge downside.

As for the blue splash, holding counterspells does not work with Liliana of the Veil and Pyroblast takes care of the most things we would want to counter anyway.

[Admiral_Arzar]

What happened to jund?

What killed it? Miracles?


Miracles was never a problem and still is manageable albeit more challenging due to the introduction of Dig Through Time and Council's Judgment.

What happened, though, is a.) Shardless BUG, which is pretty much a Jund+, b.) Dig Through Time weakened discard strategies significantly and c.) Combo is still a problem, d.) Unlike Shardless BUG, Jund is not a Blue deck, which means no cantrips and counterspells are available, which is a huge downside.

As for the blue splash, holding counterspells does not work with Liliana of the Veil and Pyroblast takes care of the most things we would want to counter anyway.

In my experience, this deck has one of the best Miracles matchups of any deck in Legacy. My tournament record against it was 7-1 and I played arguably the worst magic of my life in the one match loss. Bloodbraid Elf and Sylvan Libary are amazing in the matchup. Board out discard for Grip, Deed, etc. as discard is mediocre against a deck that plays off the top of its library with Top. Don't splash blue, Pyroblast is just fine against Omni and Dig Through Time decks in general. Chains is also pretty solid against mass cantrips (as well as Miracles).

[Neffy]

I've been moving to modern for the last months, also playing jund there, but i sleeved up my legacy jund yesterday in a meta that normally is horribly infested with combo.
I went 4-2 - which IMO should have been 6-0 :p

3 Badlands
3 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Punishing Fire
1 Sylvan Library
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
Sideboard:

1 Ancient Grudge
1 Choke
2 Duress
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
3 Pyroblast
2 Slaughter Games
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Toxic Deluge


G1 i meet Painter. I had my basics all the time and very nice Bobs, discard and large goyfs. 2-0
G2 against MUD. G1 i discard his relevant spells, fast bob and goyf again. Liliana took care of Lodestones. G2 I get him to 2 life with lily , bob and goyf on board. He sweeps it all with Ugin. And loads up on dudes. G3 i never see other lands than my starting fetch and waste :( 1-2
G3 Merfolk. Im thrilled to play this deck as its one of the best matchups. However he lands triple truename and forces my Liliana and toxic.. sooo. Think i won the second game easily. Same loss in third game.. WTF 1-2..
G4 Merfolk. This time it went as it should and i discard vials, have p.fire engine running and choke him. 2-0
G5 RUG. I play tight with my mana and nukes delver and mongoose with toxic for 3 after discarding his counter. G2 he cant remove my goyf or something and i remove his small threats. 2-0
G6 D&T. He mulls a few times and tries to mana screw me but i have all the lands in the world with bob flips and win with good stuff. Same with G2.

All in all im happy with my plays, however sad that I was so close with MUD. And I will never forgot losing to merfolk...

[ironclad8690]

I still contend that a medium to decent merfolk draw can basically kick us in the nuts. Also, I have been having decent results locally with pyroblast and duress out of the board for omnitell. I have always stood by a 1-of choke in the board, and I think I only ever lost 1 game after resolving it vs miracles. In the 1 game I beat Joe Lossett in my lifetime, it was because of Choke. I still stand by it, especially in today's hyper blue metagame.

[Nuke is Good]

I still contend that a medium to decent merfolk draw can basically kick us in the nuts. Also, I have been having decent results locally with pyroblast and duress out of the board for omnitell. I have always stood by a 1-of choke in the board, and I think I only ever lost 1 game after resolving it vs miracles. In the 1 game I beat Joe Lossett in my lifetime, it was because of Choke. I still stand by it, especially in today's hyper blue metagame.

Merfolk chalice builds have a stronger chance of beating us, but still falter to our removal. Jund might have to adapt like it did during the TC era and MD pyroblasts. I like choke but my meta is more BUG heavy so all it does for me is buy a turn or it eats an abrupt decay on the spot.

[ironclad8690]

Merfolk chalice builds have a stronger chance of beating us, but still falter to our removal. Jund might have to adapt like it did during the TC era and MD pyroblasts. I like choke but my meta is more BUG heavy so all it does for me is buy a turn or it eats an abrupt decay on the spot.

Yeah, in a bug meta I think you want Pyroblast 3 rather than Choke. I can never seem to get away from damn Miracle-whip.

[Tokugawa]

Merfolk chalice builds have a stronger chance of beating us, but still falter to our removal. Jund might have to adapt like it did during the TC era and MD pyroblasts. I like choke but my meta is more BUG heavy so all it does for me is buy a turn or it eats an abrupt decay on the spot.

Just overload removals, then Merfolks fold. Merfolks have no reliable way to link TNN with jitte.

[aluisiocsantos]

Played a local yesterday and went horrible, haha, 0-4. Maybe it's because I'm playing hearthstone too much these days.
Went to the same list I posted a few pages back which got me a 4-1, which has Courser of Kruphix, TS+IoKs, Kholaghan's Command and Tombstalker, except this time I changed for Tasigur.

I got Junk, Death and taxes, Elves and Burn. I won't detail much, I pretty much played very messy.
However I did use Kholaghans a few times and it's an exceptional card. I managed to kill Mom and batterskull in the same strike at one time, and kill an elf and discard elves only card in hand at another. I think it's a sticker!

[Dємigød]

Hi there

I think i will play jund in GP Lille and now i'm working on a list for that event. there will be one more big event before the gp where i plan to play it as well to see if i have to change anything else.
my list right now looks like

4 verdant catacombs
3 wasteland
4 grove of the burnwillow
3 badlands
2 bayou
2 swamp
1 forest
2 wooded foothills
2 bloodstained mire

3 bloodbraid elf
4 tarmogoyf
4 dark confidant
4 deathrite

4 liliana

3 hymn
4 thoughtseize
4 abrupt decay
3 punishing fire
3 lightning bolt
1 sylvan libary


SB

4 Red blast
2 chains of mephistoles
1 duress
1 enginereed plague
1 golgari charm
1 kolaghans command
1 surgical extraction
2 grafdiggers cage
1 pithing needle
1 scavenging ooze


i will test later today the postboard games vs omnitell. i think it is in our favour. i still think my sb is not optimal. i have no idea how good kolaghans command is, i run it in the slot where i used ancient grudge before. it can be used to kill eqipments or vials as well as the creatures these decks play so its more flexible. also unsure about 4 red blasts. other than mono blue combo decks or merfolk i never bring in 4, most of the time 3. also the grave hate. could it be better to just run more surgicals, because they are also good vs combo with that much discard, but then i have no cages vs elves. about the mb how much hymn to tourach is the best number? i expect a lot of miracles and omnitell so i thought 3 might be enough. in that case maybe only 3 burnwillows and one more black dual to cast the bb spells early against combo decks.
i havent played jund for some months now, especially after the tc ban so i dont know all the matchups. how is it vs shardless bug and grixis control variants? a fair grindy game or does dig through time let them win more often? i played omnitell the last 6 months but i dont want to play it now since everyone knows it and will have plans against it.

[SecondSunrise]

Hi there

I think i will play jund in GP Lille and now i'm working on a list for that event. there will be one more big event before the gp where i plan to play it as well to see if i have to change anything else.
my list right now looks like

4 verdant catacombs
3 wasteland
4 grove of the burnwillow
3 badlands
2 bayou
2 swamp
1 forest
2 wooded foothills
2 bloodstained mire

3 bloodbraid elf
4 tarmogoyf
4 dark confidant
4 deathrite

4 liliana

3 hymn
4 thoughtseize
4 abrupt decay
3 punishing fire
3 lightning bolt
1 sylvan libary


SB

4 Red blast
2 chains of mephistoles
1 duress
1 enginereed plague
1 golgari charm
1 kolaghans command
1 surgical extraction
2 grafdiggers cage
1 pithing needle
1 scavenging ooze


i will test later today the postboard games vs omnitell. i think it is in our favour. i still think my sb is not optimal. i have no idea how good kolaghans command is, i run it in the slot where i used ancient grudge before. it can be used to kill eqipments or vials as well as the creatures these decks play so its more flexible. also unsure about 4 red blasts. other than mono blue combo decks or merfolk i never bring in 4, most of the time 3. also the grave hate. could it be better to just run more surgicals, because they are also good vs combo with that much discard, but then i have no cages vs elves. about the mb how much hymn to tourach is the best number? i expect a lot of miracles and omnitell so i thought 3 might be enough. in that case maybe only 3 burnwillows and one more black dual to cast the bb spells early against combo decks.
i havent played jund for some months now, especially after the tc ban so i dont know all the matchups. how is it vs shardless bug and grixis control variants? a fair grindy game or does dig through time let them win more often? i played omnitell the last 6 months but i dont want to play it now since everyone knows it and will have plans against it.

Hi, what happened to those SB games against Omniitell? I would be greatly interested in your findings, since I am testing Jund for Lille as well.

[Dємigød]

the testing with that SB above went not the way i thought it would do. seems like packing 4 red blasts doesnt stop omnitell but weakens the SB vs other decks. for now i will play 4 surgical extractions and hope to cut them of one of their combo pieces or dig through time. i also changed one bolt for an inqiisition of kozilek in the mb (maybe duress is better?). so my plan vs omni after sb is to discard and then disrupt with extraction. it works finde even if you dont hit a combo piece. when you play thoughtseize and they respond with a brainstorm to hide the good cards you take whatever is the best card you can see (dig, wish, another brainstorm) then surgical that to shuffle their deck, so their brainstorm already weakend their hand. having 4 surgicals in SB is also a good effect to have vs reanimator and dredge. chains of mephistoles can be very backbreaking to omnitell, BUT only if played after all the discard. when you drop it to early they can play around it long enough to find the kill, but when it comes down after a thoughtseize and a hymn it can push them to a point where they have to find a dig or they loose (and that dig better finds them the combo and not more cantrips^^). i bring the golgari charm in there as well. if they are the red splash variant it can kill yp and also can kill omniscience. this happens more often then you might think, because they usually dont have a lot of cards left in hand when they go of. if they manage to drop that omniscience and have only 1 card left in hand (wish, dig) just destroy omni in response and they are dead. a similar situation (you have to know their hand for this) is to tap out, then they will cast show and tell. you drop a red land with pyroblast in hand. they drop omni and you can kill it. here it is important to know when to do this because they could also drop emmi and that would be bad in that case.
my SB right now looks like

4 surgical
1 duress
1 toxic deluge
1 golgari charm
1 grafdiggers cage
2 chains of mephistoles
2 pyroblast
1 kolaghans command
1 dark blast (could also be another golgari charm, have to see how it performs vs elves)
1 null rod

tomorrow i will play a tournament with that list and see how it goes. from my testing i can say that grixis delver is a good matchup, storm and omnitell are winable but you have to take mulligans if you dont have a discard heavy hand. miracles is ok and dnt is easy if you dont let them mana screw you. sadly noone in my playgroup had a lands or elves deck so i dont know how the matchups looks there.

[Ingo]

the testing with that SB above went not the way i thought it would do. seems like packing 4 red blasts doesnt stop omnitell but weakens the SB vs other decks.

I'm no Jund-player, but in RGB colors, wouldn't you consider Slaughtergames and Choke in regards of Omnitell? Choke will also hit the other 90% of isle-running-decks, and Slaughtergames can pull some serious weight in the Miracles-matchup.

[Vicar in a tutu]

I'm no Jund-player, but in RGB colors, wouldn't you consider Slaughtergames and Choke in regards of Omnitell? Choke will also hit the other 90% of isle-running-decks, and Slaughtergames can pull some serious weight in the Miracles-matchup.
I've been playing Jund for several years. This is my SB:

1 Engineered Plague
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
2 Duress
1 Boil
3 Choke
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Golgari Charm

Choke is incredibly powerful.

[Dємigød]

i tried slaughter games once and it was ok but to slow to matter much even on the play. you have to interact as fast as possible. you also dont play more than 1 or 2 of these so chances of not drawing them at all are very big. i havent tested choke but i dont like it in theory at least not vs omitell. it does not take away their cards and is slow. by the time you land choke they are most of the time able to kill you next turn. now they have to wait and play untapped lands. that gives us a lot of time but does not solve the problem that they can kill us very soon. jund has not a fast clock like delver decks. another prblem with choke is that it will countered very easy and this is to much of a throwback since you spent 3 mana (the whole 3rd turn) to cast it. i also play omnitell and liliana is not a problem to counter most of the time so i dont think choke will be diffrent, even if its impact might be bigger when played to a tapped out board of islands. but choke is good vs a lot of other decks maybe i will try it aswell if my list does not perform good.

[Dємigød]

so back from a 6 round tournament with top8 which i missed, got 9th with 4-1-1 -.-

round1 VS UR Delver 2:1

was a UR delver deck with blood moon and magus of the moon in the deck. game one i died because i was not able to handle a second delver because i needed my removal for the moon effects. game 2 and 3 i had more removal and red blast and chains so it became a lot easier. when they need two bolts to kill a goyf and you drop another is great. game3 i had to timewalk myself for two turns as i had only duals and one lonely drs. had a great hand but could not kill moon if they would land it so i had to save 2 lands for decay mana all the time. but after i was at 4 mana i was able to play one thread each turn and it was enough soon after.


round2 VS omnitell with red splash 2:0

i keept a discard heavy hand (did not know the match at this point) but thoughtseize into hymn (got split decisioned) into liliana won me game 1. never draw a dacay or other dead cards. game2 i brought in 4 surgical, 2 chains, 2 blasts, 1 golgari charm, 1 duress and 1 maelstrom pulse (last minute change in the sb over the dark blast). was able to let him discard early on then played a bob to draw into more cards. i was able to resolve a hymn taking omniscience and dig. i extract the dig, next turn play liliana, he used cunning wish to get a force of will and counters. well 3 for one... he now in topdeck mode with no digs and no emrakul in the deck anymore (drs eats emmi early). beat him down with goyf and bob he had no chance of getting back in the game without dig and later chains also blanks every cantrip.


round3 VS nourishing lich 2:0

i had no idea what deck this was, but thoughtseize and hymn gave me enough time to race whatever was going on. my opp beeing mana screw and i having wasteland was also good. i knew he had pack rat in his SB so i left some removal in the deck and brought surgicals and duress and a maelstrom pulse. should have brought golgari charm as well as he had a lot of enchantments. i had to mull to 6 he thoughtseized me taking bolt. i topdeck thoughtseize myself and take care of his Nefarious Lich. a few turns later he has a academy rector but i respond with surgical on the lich after i realized what his deck tried to set up (saw nourishing shoal before in his hand). i saw what he had in his deck (all japanese so no idea about some cards) but he scooped saying he can't win anymore now.

round4 Jund Mirror 1:2

started on the draw and got buried under value. managed to win game 2 after mull to 6 with 2 fast goyfs but he had the better draw game3. i also had no real sb cards here. brought in kolaghans command, maelstrom pulse, golgari charm and a pair of surgicals. turns out he had no punishing fire engine at all. got beaten down by 2 bobs and could not keep up with that ca. whoever is on the play in the mirror is very favoured because he gets to discard first, have drs online first and is able to resolve hymn first.


round5 VS Team America 2:0

a little fight about mana, a few delvers to burn but junds lategame was superior both games. there was a point in game2 where we both played draw go for about 5 turns. punishing fire engine got me the win in game1 and toxic deluge in game2 after i let him dump his hand in front of my liliana on 7. all in all a usual game vs team america

round6 draw to not make top8 -.-



all in all jund felt very good,but i feel i have not that much sb cards vs midrange decks now. but a lot of cards is just needed to win the combo matches. i only played 3 grove of the burnwillos and it was not very good. really needed it in the delver match and if i would not have been rolled over in the mirror there aswell. only one burnwillow found every game and it gets wasted very fast. but on the other side i had no problems getting double black for turn2 with 9 fetches. (was because i had no access to a 4rd burnwillow that day)

[Seraphix]

I played Jund in a 7 round (90 something people) tournament yesterday. While not typically my weapon of choice, I thought it would be a good call for this tournament as long as I could dodge multiple Omni players. Unfortunately, this turned out to be wishful thinking.

I ended 4-3 with my rounds being:
MUD (2-0)
UR Delver (2-0)
UG Post (2-0)
Omni (0-2)
A.N.T. (2-0)
Omni (0-2)
Affinity variant (1-2)

My list was pretty "stock", no real spice. The Omni matchup is definitely a problem one cannot avoid, so I would hesitate to play Jund again at a large tournament without a better plan to approach it. Omni was all over the top tables and I believe 3 made top8.


i tried slaughter games once and it was ok but to slow to matter much even on the play. you have to interact as fast as possible. you also dont play more than 1 or 2 of these so chances of not drawing them at all are very big. i havent tested choke but i dont like it in theory at least not vs omitell. it does not take away their cards and is slow. by the time you land choke they are most of the time able to kill you next turn. now they have to wait and play untapped lands. that gives us a lot of time but does not solve the problem that they can kill us very soon. jund has not a fast clock like delver decks. another prblem with choke is that it will countered very easy and this is to much of a throwback since you spent 3 mana (the whole 3rd turn) to cast it. i also play omnitell and liliana is not a problem to counter most of the time so i dont think choke will be diffrent, even if its impact might be bigger when played to a tapped out board of islands. but choke is good vs a lot of other decks maybe i will try it aswell if my list does not perform good.

I think I'm going to try 2x Slaughter Games in the board next time I play Jund just to see for myself weather it is a thing or not. It is certainly slow, but if you can cast it before you're dead against Omni it seems super good. As usual, I'm not sold on Choke here.

[Nuke is Good]

I think I'm going to try 2x Slaughter Games in the board next time I play Jund just to see for myself weather it is a thing or not. It is certainly slow, but if you can cast it before you're dead against Omni it seems super good. As usual, I'm not sold on Choke here.

A table next to my at GP Kyoto tried Slaughter games against Omnitell trying to shut off show and tell. The next turn the Omni player went burning wish into SnT for the win. This matchup is a pain in the ass for Jund, I was lucky to dodge that matchup. Choke is bad in a BUG filled meta but against Omni I found it to be a worthwhile inclusion. Still we do not have a silver bullet against the deck.

[iamajellydonut]

A table next to my at GP Kyoto tried Slaughter games against Omnitell trying to shut off show and tell. The next turn the Omni player went burning wish into SnT for the win.

To be fair, Burning Wish isn't exactly commonplace in OmniShow lists. Against any actually competitive Omni list, a resolved Slaughter Games will end it. Whether you get to cast that Slaughter Games in the first place, eh.

[Ralf]

To be fair, Burning Wish isn't exactly commonplace in OmniShow lists. Against any actually competitive Omni list, a resolved Slaughter Games will end it. Whether you get to cast that Slaughter Games in the first place, eh.

Well, there is also the 1 of "Through the Breach" that can be tutored with CW.
SLG is not a game ending spell. But I agree with you as a resolved one should give you enough time to kill the Omni player before you'd get "breached".

[DOM]

After having played Shardless BUG since the last January and losing to Elves twice in the previous tournaments, nostalgia finally took over and I put my good old Punishing Jund in DS sleeves. I am happy to announce that I ended up in the first place (though, there were not many players this evening)!

The list:

Creatures(15):
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

Spells(22):
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Liliana of the Veil

Lands(23):
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Swamp

The sideboard:

3 Duress
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Golgari Charm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Engineered Plague
1 Toxic Deluge

The tournament:

R1. Elves (2-0)

First game started with me Thoughtseizing, then casting a Bob, then Bolting something and drawing no more than one land. All the other spells were relevant, though, so I won despite the screw. During the second game I Thoughtseized, Hymned and cast Chains of Mephistopheles on the third turn. Soon Punishing Fire joined the party and so did a pair of Tarmogoyfs.

-3 Bloodbraid Elf
-2 Sylvan Library
-1 Tarmogoyf
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
-1 Deathrite Shaman
+2 Grafdigger's Cage
+2 Chains of Mephistopheles
+1 Golgari Charm
+1 Kolgahan's Command (wanted to test, did not draw)
+1 Engineered Plague
+1 Toxic Deluge

R2. Death and Taxes (2-0)

First game was quick and painful for my opponent. In the second game he managed to remove two Lilianas from my hand by extracting one in the graveyard with Surgical Extraction, but I still had a couple of Punishing Fires in hand.

-3 Hymn to Tourach
-3 Thoughtseize
+1 Golgari Charm
+1 Ancient Grudge
+1 Life from the Loam
+1 Kolaghan's Command (did not draw)
+1 Engineered Plague
+1 Toxic Deluge

Note: we played ~16 games with this fellow prior the tournament and I had an opportunity to try Kolaghan's Command. It was juicy! For example, my opponent played Jitte and Mother of Runes on turn three. I untaped and Kolaghan'ed both of them.

R3. Food Chain (0-2)

Dragged the game by discarding, decaying and burning some relevant threats and ended up with no action aside from a Sylvan Library and double Punishing Fire. My opponent had a Sylvan Library as well... and he ended up having better books (I only saw lands for a few turns). I got colour-screwed on the second game, thus failed to cast Hymns and other relevant spells until it was too late :(

After the game we have talked about this matchup and reached the consensus that I should be the aggressor instead of trying to control the game.

-1 Tarmogoyf
+1 Golgari Charm

Note: perhaps running 8 fetchlands instead of 9 is not a very good idea (hence the SL failure).

R4. Junk Pod (2-1)

Kept a one lander with a Thoughtsezie, Deathrite Shaman, Sylvan Library and a bunch of other 2cc spells. Started by casting Thoughtseize. Played Deathrite Shaman on turn 2. Things would have gone smoothly if I managed to draw a second land in like five turns...

Won the 2nd game by killing opposing dudes and beating with a Bloodbarid Elf and a Dark Confidant. My CA engine (Dark Confidant) comes on the field earlier than my opponent's, which is nice. I also cascaded into Kolaghan's Command once, but had to discard a card myself because my foe had a Leyline of Sanctity on the battlefield (:o), so I brought back a Deathrite Shaman (still not that bad). On the third game Kolaghan's Command worked wonders as it helped me to destroy Deranged Hermit and Sword of Fire and Ice. I had two Dark Confidants, Deathrite Shamans and some other goodies, so I ended up winning.

-3 Hymn to Tourach (took them out in case my opponent boards in Obstinate Baloths, which he used to board in)
+1 Ancient Grudge (to answer the SFM package, etc.)
+1 Kolaghan's Command
+1 Toxic Deluge

Note: next time bring a pair of Grafdigger's Cages as well.

So, the deck was good, Kolaghan's Command was good, everything was good except for losing to Food Chain. I ran 3 Bayous and eight fetchalnds to bluff that I am playing Shardless during the first few turns (because of that I had a set of Deltas instead of 4 Verdant Catacombs, 3 Bloodstained Mire and 2 Wooded Foothills split), such configuration did not seem that bad, though I might go back to the 9 fetchland, 3 Badlands and 2 Bayou configuration instead. Which brings us to these questions:

1.) Should I add 2nd Kolaghan's Command to my SB?
2.) Griffin Food Chain? Can we beat it?
3.) Mentioned land-related concerns. Which option should I choose?
4.) Have some questions yourselves? Fire away!

Keep on Punishing!

P.S. Despite I had played Punishing Jund for approximately a year and a half, this was the first time without the MB Life from the Loam. I put a 2nd Library instead and I was not disappointed. Probably going to cut Life from the Loam entirely, maybe add 2nd Kolaghan's Command to the sideboard instead.

[Adamovic]

Congrats DOM on the tourny. Looked decent.

In regards to the food chain matchup you could definently have finished the day undefeated.
I've played the matchup many times against a friend and we agree that its about even. Though it can seem pretty hopeless from both ends. In my experience we are the aggressor but don't be to carefree. Abrubt decay is an allstar as it handles food chain it self. But beware of misderection. That can really sting. So try killing it at end of their turn where they can't punish you with infi mana into bounce everything-dude.

Game plan:
Handle their deathrites which shouldn't be to hard
Constrain them on mana as multiple recurring griffs can be anything from annoying to unbeatable.
Save AD for food chain unless you're sure they've boarded them out.
Establish a clock and kill them.

In my experience it usually comes down to one crucial turn where you either get them dead or they overwhelm you with Griffs. That turn is usually turn 4 so think twice before running out blood braid unless you have nothing else going on.

[razvan]

1.) Should I add 2nd Kolaghan's Command to my SB?
2.) Griffin Food Chain? Can we beat it?
3.) Mentioned land-related concerns. Which option should I choose?
4.) Have some questions yourselves? Fire away!

1. I wouldn't, but it's not a bad idea. I think you can safely cut a Duress if you have 4 TS, 3 Hymn, 4 Liliana in the maindeck.
2. Yes. I normally run one more Golgari Charm and a Krosan Grip in the SB. Abrupt Decay isn't bad but they do run Misdirections so it's not as reliable as KG and GC.
3. I like 9 fetchlands. 4 Verdant, 3 Bloodstained, 2 Wooded. I also only run 3 Groves and 1 Taiga (sometimes you want Green/Red on turn 1).

[CantDecide]

Hi guys this is my first post here but I've got a lot of experience with a lot of decks form fooling around a lot online.

I was just wondering if a creature based version of this deck was in the realm of possibility. Specifically with the new "diet" lili, tasigur, bitter blossom and even cabal therapy? All of which (besides tasi) are really nice to cascade into and im sure theirs other cards or interactions I'm missing (off the top of my head a gsz toolbox or No/progenitus).

Testing will be done and i will report back later.

Hope to be more active here,

CantDecide

[H]

Is it just me, or does anyone else feel like Jund should be putting up better results than it has been lately?

Having access to Green, for Goyf and Decay, plus Red for RED/Pyroblast seems like it should be decent in the meta.

There was a Jund deck in 11th place at Eternal Weekend, so what do you guys think? Combo still holding something like this down?

[btm10]

Is it just me, or does anyone else feel like Jund should be putting up better results than it has been lately?

Having access to Green, for Goyf and Decay, plus Red for RED/Pyroblast seems like it should be decent in the meta.

There was a Jund deck in 11th place at Eternal Weekend, so what do you guys think? Combo still holding something like this down?

I've been thinking the exact same thing. My best guess is that it's people's perception that the deck is weak rather than 'true' weakness, coupled with a sense of 'if I'm going to beat up fair decks while losing to combo, I'm going to polarize those matchups even more and just play Lands'.

[H]

I've been thinking the exact same thing. My best guess is that it's people's perception that the deck is weak rather than 'true' weakness, coupled with a sense of 'if I'm going to beat up fair decks while losing to combo, I'm going to polarize those matchups even more and just play Lands'.

I might run it this weekend, BUG has really not been kind to me the last month or two, too many Dig Through Times I have had to let resolve due to lack of REBs.

I'm going to try to write up a list this afternoon, I've got some rough ideas of what I'd like to run. Do you feel like six discard spells is right, or seven?

[Nuke is Good]

Is it just me, or does anyone else feel like Jund should be putting up better results than it has been lately?

Having access to Green, for Goyf and Decay, plus Red for RED/Pyroblast seems like it should be decent in the meta.

There was a Jund deck in 11th place at Eternal Weekend, so what do you guys think? Combo still holding something like this down?

Meta still seems more unfair plus chalice strategies seem to be the more popular way to crap on blue along with Sylvan Plug.

I was chatting with the Punishing Jund player that got 11th since he was my Vintage opponent. He's just stuck with the deck and has done well with it. I personally put Jund on the sidelines due to my meta shifting towards Omni/TES and I've only seen one actual fair deck. I personally hate the storm matchup even with all the hand disruption in the world I still somehow get stormed to death at times.

I always got the deck ready for action but I tend to play combo more these days. At times the deck gets to shine like when I forgot my Reanimator deck at the hotel for GP Kyoto or as a counterpick vs DnT week at the shop.

[H]

Maybe I should just man up and play Reanimator then. I think I own everything I'd need. I often only think of fair decks in Legacy.

[Seraphix]

I played Jund at a >100 person tournament today and got 17th place.

List:
4x Deathrite
4x Bob
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Bloodbraid Elf

4x Thoughtseize
2x Bolt
4x Decay
3x Hymn
3x Punishing Fire
4x Liliana
1x Kolaghan's Command
1x Top

23 Land with 4x Grove 3x Wastes

SB 2x Duress
SB 2x Grafdigger's Cage
SB 2x Pyroblast
SB 2x Surgical
SB 2x Golgari Charm
SB 1x Nihil Spellbomb
SB 1x Maelstrom Pulse
SB 1x Phyrexian Revoker
SB 1x Trinisphere
SB 1x Life from the Loam

I tried out K-Command for the 1st time where I normally play an Ooze, which was underperforming. It seemed ok and I'd try it again. Trinisphere was SB tech I saw in a list somewhere. I've been playing it for a little bit now and have been very satisfied with it. Haven't tried Slaughter Games yet but its still on my radar.

Matches:
Elves (2-1)
Belcher (1-2)
MUD (2-1)
Omni-Tell (2-0)
Reanimator (2-1)
Merfolk (0-2) (Got a game loss for having an SB card in my maindeck, then got boned by an early Back to Basics)
Omni-Tell (2-1)

I don't know if it was luck or skill, but I crushed seemingly bad matchups all day. Deck is good, so don't be discouraged from playing it.

[Dino]

I played Jund in a small legacy tournament and got 1st place and won a volcanic island. I used this list:

Main
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Liliana of the Veil

3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach

4 Punishing Fire
3 Lightning Bolt

1 Life from the Loam

1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Bayou
3 Badlands
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Golgari Charm
1 Choke
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Engineered Plague
3 Duress

I won all my die rolls in the swiss and got to play first x4. I played against the following:
Green-Black Birthing Pod (2-0)- Game 1:Punishing fire / Bolt all his small guys and maelstrom pulsed his pod. Game 2: I played turn 2 bob. He didn't draw his abrupt decay and only had non-black creature removal.

4c Counterbalance with stoneforge (1-2)- Game 1: My deathrite and bob got sworded but then was beating down with goyf. I played an ooze (probably shouldn't have) and they both got terminus. Didn't draw any more creatures. Game 2 (he mulligans): t1 deathrite, t2 thoughtseize + hymn. Game 3: He got counterbalance and top early and I he counterspelled my pulse and didn't draw abrupt Decay. I boarded 1 abrupt decay out--not sure if that was right or not.

Mono Red sneak attack (2-1): Game 1: He plays turn 2 grisselbrand and emerakul. Game 2 and 3: I mulligan aggressively to hand disruption and have Liliana both games.

Burn (2-0): Game 1 my hymn got 2x flame rift and my turn 3 goyf beats down. I win at 1 life. Game 2: turn 1 bolt his goblin guide, turn 2 goyf (dies), turn 3: abrupt decay his lavamancer. Turn 4 goyf + jitte. Gained ~10 life and won.

Top 4:
UR Omnitell (2-0): Game 1: I mulligan to thoughtseize (got show and tell) and resolve liliana. He doesn't draw another show and tell. Game 2: I mulligan to thoughtseize and was able REB a dig through time. Win with goyf beats.

4c Counterbalance (2-1): Game 1: I was able to get loam + wasteland and kill all his non-basics--win with punishing fires. Game 2: I try to thoughtseize and he Fow. He plays stoneforge and gets batterskull. I had no removal in hand and quickly die to batterskull. Game 3: I was able to thoughtseize a FoW and play Bob. He had no removal for it and it draws me enough cards to win. I left in all 3 abrupt decay game 2 and 3.

I do like the loam main-it can win games on itself with wasteland.
The ooze main has been just ok-I can see putting it back in the board.
I would like to find room for a 3rd bloodbraid and 3rd hymm. I always want to draw a bloodbraid in the mid-late game, but don't want bloodbraid in my opener. 3rd Hymm would help against combo, maybe add 1 to the board? I do play a lot of bolt / fire in my deck but they are so good against the creature decks in legacy.
The pulse has been much better than a 4th abrupt decay.
How was the top? Seems decent against slower decks, better than Sylvan Library? Not sure.
1x Kolagan's Command might be good, kills equipment or a small guy and brings a creature back. It is too slow for maindeck or it is a better sideboard card?
I think I will try trinisphere in the board. Seems great turn 2 play with deathrite.

[Seraphix]

...


I do like the loam main-it can win games on itself with wasteland.
The ooze main has been just ok-I can see putting it back in the board.
I would like to find room for a 3rd bloodbraid and 3rd hymm. I always want to draw a bloodbraid in the mid-late game, but don't want bloodbraid in my opener. 3rd Hymm would help against combo, maybe add 1 to the board? I do play a lot of bolt / fire in my deck but they are so good against the creature decks in legacy.
The pulse has been much better than a 4th abrupt decay.
How was the top? Seems decent against slower decks, better than Sylvan Library? Not sure.
1x Kolagan's Command might be good, kills equipment or a small guy and brings a creature back. It is too slow for maindeck or it is a better sideboard card?
I think I will try trinisphere in the board. Seems great turn 2 play with deathrite.

Glad to see someone else still Jund-ing.

I've always jammed Ooze in Jund to have another "threat" but I think our mana makes it hard to use it effectively. Going down to 8 fetches and playing a 3rd Bayou or a Taiga could remedy this problem, but I haven't tried this.

I gravitated towards K-Command because the Disentomb mode sort of felt like playing another threat, and its just a versatile MD card overall. It seems ok against a lot of things but only great against a few things so I'm not sure I want it SB. Then again I always skew my board heavily to fight combo.

I don't think Top is better than Library, but I'm trying it out.

[Plague Sliver]

Deck seems favorably positioned right now.

How is the Shardless BUG matchup? Battle of the grind, and all that.

[Nuke is Good]

Deck seems favorably positioned right now.

How is the Shardless BUG matchup? Battle of the grind, and all that.

I find the matchup favorable, though pilot skill comes down in the end with these kind of grindy matchups. Punishing fire works wonders here. I think the only fair midrange matchup I hate is UWR midrange due to stoneforge mystic and TNN.

[iamajellydonut]

I played Jund at a >100 person tournament today and got 17th place.

I didn't even see this. Was it the Lotus tournament?

[Seraphix]

Deck seems favorably positioned right now.

How is the Shardless BUG matchup? Battle of the grind, and all that.
I think Punishing Fire makes us a slight favorite since it kills every non-Tarmogoyf thing in their deck. We're also typically the better wasteland deck, which is another trump in the matchup. On the other hand, them having access to Brainstorm is very good.


I didn't even see this. Was it the Lotus tournament?
Yep.

[kryllex]

Switched from Grixis Control to Jund after the DTT ban, will play it at a 50+ Tournament at saturday.
Miracles seems to be such an incredible good matchup, destroyed it without any effort in the Tests with friends so far. I feel like even the redblasts from the board are bad, because i dont want to cascade into them with a Bloodbraid, who is the strongest dude in the matchup. And I dont care about jace, he just dies, all other dudes die to pfire/decay.. Discard is just genious.
Can any1 confirm that? :D

Also, how is the MUD Matchup? I couldn't test versus that so far; got a Null ROd in the board. Shouldn't be bad, since they are so inconsistent. Kill Metalworker and win from there with discard i guess?

RUG seems favored also.

Jund just seems to be really good right now in the meta after DTT.

But, the Storm Matchup is just horrible. Like, really; same as Sneakshow and combocrap like that. Lilly mostly just comes too late to sac a dude. I don't have my Chains of Mephistopheles yet, so i can't bring that. Was thinking of adding 2x Eidolon of the Great Revel as super secret anti-combo tech? What do you guys think? Otherwise, i have the basic stuff like cage, duress, extraction, slaughter games, blasts etc.

regards,
kryllex

[Seraphix]

Switched from Grixis Control to Jund after the DTT ban, will play it at a 50+ Tournament at saturday.
Miracles seems to be such an incredible good matchup, destroyed it without any effort in the Tests with friends so far. I feel like even the redblasts from the board are bad, because i dont want to cascade into them with a Bloodbraid, who is the strongest dude in the matchup. And I dont care about jace, he just dies, all other dudes die to pfire/decay.. Discard is just genious.
Can any1 confirm that? :D

Also, how is the MUD Matchup? I couldn't test versus that so far; got a Null ROd in the board. Shouldn't be bad, since they are so inconsistent. Kill Metalworker and win from there with discard i guess?

RUG seems favored also.

Jund just seems to be really good right now in the meta after DTT.

But, the Storm Matchup is just horrible. Like, really; same as Sneakshow and combocrap like that. Lilly mostly just comes too late to sac a dude. I don't have my Chains of Mephistopheles yet, so i can't bring that. Was thinking of adding 2x Eidolon of the Great Revel as super secret anti-combo tech? What do you guys think? Otherwise, i have the basic stuff like cage, duress, extraction, slaughter games, blasts etc.

regards,
kryllex

MUD is a very solid matchup. There is a lot of MUD in my meta so I play against it a lot. We just have a lot of good cards against them: discard, LIliana, wasteland, and removal. You just have to make sure to keep a hand relevant to the matchup because they can do crazy stuff pretty quick that can be hard to beat. Your priority should be winning the fight over mana early. Cards I almost always play in my board partially with this matchup in mind are Revoker (Null Rod is even better here) and Loam. I usually keep some number of Fires in the deck (remember to get them back of Glimmerpost triggers) just to have more answers to Metalworker because of how good it is, and even keep Bolts because despite being bad against Chalice we can be somewhat light on efficient answers to Lodestone Golem, which is usually responsible for my losses.

Storm isn't great but isn't terrible either. Discard is still good and I've gotten concessions from Surgical on Infernal Tutor. I think T.E.S. Is the more worrisome storm deck since they can combo very quickly. I will also take this opportunity to give a shout out to Trinisphere-its seriously good against almost every combo deck. Chains might be better but I've never played with it so I can't comment, I believe it has a somewhat analagous functionality though.

[iamajellydonut]

Chains might be better but I've never played with it so I can't comment, I believe it has a somewhat analogous functionality though.

Chains is... It does its job. People like to overhype Chains like it's the only thing you need in life, but it's not. It's definitely a great card, but it won't win the game on its own and it should never be your focus, and you should never feel like you're at a disadvantage just because you don't own one.


With regards to MUD, it's an ok match-up. They're rather inconsistent and most of their tools are designed to punish decks that rely on cantrips. Cards like Trinisphere get a lot less scary when your just paying 3cc for a Liliana anyway. They do have some power plays (fucking Wurmcoil Engine?) and sometimes Chalice can get you stuck with a hand full of Bolts and Deathrites, but mostly it's a match-up that you shouldn't necessarily be unhappy to see.

Storm is a bit more scary, but not impossible, and I'd agree that TES is the scarier of the two (though even that can be managable if they don't have a Therapy thanks to the mystical powers of Golgari Charm). Going one-for-one with Thoughtseize is only an effective stalling tactic and shouldn't be your go-to. Hymn to Tourach is your bread and butter. If you can survive long enough to resolve a Hymn and present a clock, you're in a strong position to take it all. Aside from just dying before you get the chance to do anything, when you really get into the most trouble is if you find only clocks or only discard. One isn't enough to win the war. You need both. I really like the idea of Eidolon though, and I feel really stupid for not having thought of it before.

[kryllex]

Solid list from Christopher Calhoun made 10th place at SCG Legacy Premier IQ :)

[Anarky87]

That list is 1 card off from mine. And I've been loving it.

[ironclad8690]

Threw a semi budget punishing jund list together online, and aside from bg loam pox, soldier stompy, and tin fins I have been winning almost every match. I might record some videos or stream sometime.

[Nuke is Good]

Manage to get into Top 4 Contention in a 3 rounder today in the shop. Reanimator has been giving me poor performances including an abysmal 0-2, so I decided to go back to my first major deck. Each time I bring Jund after a bad streak I seem to get Top 4-Top 8 easily. Also helped I dodged the realllll bad matchups today.

Creatures (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf
Spells (22)
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
1 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Punishing Fire
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (23)
1 Forest
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
3 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
Sideboard (15)
1 Extirpate
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Golgari Charm
1 Life from the Loam
1 Null Rod
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Choke
2 Pernicious Deed

Standard fare list.

Round 1: I lose to Bant.
G1 I kill most of his dudes including any Mom that hit the field. However I tap out and fail to kill his KotR and he depths combo'd me to death.
G2 I got him down to 8 life, I toxic deluge to wipe most of his dudes but I miscalculated to and his KotR survives. He proceeded to use Retreat to Coralheim and basically cycle lands to making his Knight a 19/19 killing me.

I chalked this up as the combo loss of the day and proceeded unphased.

Round 2: Cheeri0s
Talk about my bad luck I lose the flip and he goes first. Having played Cheeri0s I expected a turn 1 kill. It never came so I proceeded to kill him with two BBE's which flipped Hymn and a Goyf.
Game 2: I use Jitte and Bob to draw stuff and keep me alive. None of my combo hate cards showed up at all.

Round 3: Affinity
Game 1: Opponent scoops when I get my grove combo online turn 2
Game 2: He scoops after I have double deed out. I kept a one land hand to keep both Pernicious Deeds.


Jund is probably the only fair midrange deck I'd ever play. And sometimes going back to basics helps.

[ironclad8690]

Manage to get into Top 4 Contention in a 3 rounder today in the shop. Reanimator has been giving me poor performances including an abysmal 0-2, so I decided to go back to my first major deck. Each time I bring Jund after a bad streak I seem to get Top 4-Top 8 easily. Also helped I dodged the realllll bad matchups today.

Creatures (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf
Spells (22)
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
1 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Punishing Fire
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (23)
1 Forest
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
2 Swamp
3 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
Sideboard (15)
1 Extirpate
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Golgari Charm
1 Life from the Loam
1 Null Rod
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Choke
2 Pernicious Deed

Standard fare list.

Round 1: I lose to Bant.
G1 I kill most of his dudes including any Mom that hit the field. However I tap out and fail to kill his KotR and he depths combo'd me to death.
G2 I got him down to 8 life, I toxic deluge to wipe most of his dudes but I miscalculated to and his KotR survives. He proceeded to use Retreat to Coralheim and basically cycle lands to making his Knight a 19/19 killing me.

I chalked this up as the combo loss of the day and proceeded unphased.

Round 2: Cheeri0s
Talk about my bad luck I lose the flip and he goes first. Having played Cheeri0s I expected a turn 1 kill. It never came so I proceeded to kill him with two BBE's which flipped Hymn and a Goyf.
Game 2: I use Jitte and Bob to draw stuff and keep me alive. None of my combo hate cards showed up at all.

Round 3: Affinity
Game 1: Opponent scoops when I get my grove combo online turn 2
Game 2: He scoops after I have double deed out. I kept a one land hand to keep both Pernicious Deeds.


Jund is probably the only fair midrange deck I'd ever play. And sometimes going back to basics helps.

This is the first time I have heard of anyone doing the Knight + Coralhelm thing. At least Knight was already the prime abrupt decay target in the first place.

[Nuke is Good]

This is the first time I have heard of anyone doing the Knight + Coralhelm thing. At least Knight was already the prime abrupt decay target in the first place.

Apparently its a modern combo thing. KotR is a scary card I underestimated, I never played Maverick so I thought mom was the bigger problem if I let summoning sickness go away.

[ironclad8690]

Apparently its a modern combo thing. KotR is a scary card I underestimated, I never played Maverick so I thought mom was the bigger problem if I let summoning sickness go away.

You were correct in that as well, mom is a must kill, as is knight. If either lives for long then we can really have a hard time controlling the board.

I played in a Legacy 8 man today 3-0, here is my list and how my rounds went:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library

3 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland
2 Polluted Delta
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire

Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
2 Duress
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Choke


Round 1: Death and Taxes 2-0

Game 1 he mulls to 4 and there isn't much of a game. I thoughtseize away his best cards and get punishing fire online, goyf and bob clean up.

In: 2 Golgari Charm, 1 Toxic Deluge, 1 Ancient Grudge, 1 Umezawa's Jitte
Out: 2 Thoughtseize, 3 Hymn to Tourach (Wilt Leaf)

Game 2: He keeps a better hand this time, but I curve bolt into decay into bob + DRS into Liliana, an he can't keep up with the advantage I generate. I don't start upticking Lili until I have another in hand to take care of a random wilt leaf, but he never gets one and I kill him slowly but surely.

Round 2: Miracles 2-0 (can be seen here (http://www.twitch.tv/romariovidal/v/21180642?t=51m03s) from the other side)

Game 1: He keeps a sketchy hand and I thoughtseize away his STP so my bob can live for a while. I slowly build up an advantage and P Fire comes online while I tempo him out as he can't find Terminus.

In: 1 Pithing Needle (Top), 1 Golgari Charm (Counterbalance, RIP, Mentor Tokens hellbent), 1 Toxic Deluge (Mentor), 1 Choke (Duh), 2 Pyroblast (Jace, Counterbalance, Snapcaster, everything.dec)
Out: 3 Lightning Bolt, 1 Tarmogoyf, 1 Hymn to Tourach, 1 Deathrite Shaman

Game 2: Pithing Needle on top turn 1, and it gets a bit grindy, but I am able to overcome a Jace at 11 counters with a well timed pyroblast. I establish P fire recurring and whittle him down, DRS comes and helps while Liliana keeps him hellbent. I played around Blood Moon by fetching forest early and swamp a little later when I had the option, but I never tapped out on turns when he could have mooned me (keep up abrupt decay/golgari charm). Eventually Bob comes to help, and p fire + creatures are too good for him to stop. Oh, and I landed a choke at some point too :)

Round 3: Elves 2-0

Game 1: He mulls a couple times and I get to play first and T Seize him. I take a quirion ranger (not much else to choose), and he follows up with another ranger. I literally topdeck a removal spell every turn for the rest of this short game and win handily after establishing P fire lock + liliana.

In: 2 Golgari Charm, 1 Toxic Deluge, 1 Jitte, 1 Grafdigger's Cage
Out: 3 Bloodbraid Elf, 1 Hymn to Tourach

Game 2: He stands a better chance this time, but I pick his hand apart and Deluge some stuff pretty early, and he doesn't really come back after I go into clean up mode with lili. I topdecked some timely removal spells I will admit that.

I will try to continue posting reports from dailys and stuff that I play in. I am pretty firmly sure that Jund is great in the online metagame as it consists of a ton of Miracles and Shardless, and I feel pretty comfortable with those matchups.

[ironclad8690]

Played in a DE last night and went:

1-2 vs Stax (Charlie-in-the-Mox)

2-0 vs Shardless

2-0 vs Burn

2-0 vs Painter

The stax match was real weird, I T-seized him in the last game to see:

Lodestone
Crucible
Mox Diamond
Wasteland

His board was just city of traitors and Ratchet bomb ticked to 1.

Seeing the wasteland, I naturally thought crucible was the way to go, because I had Hymn in hand and unless he draws another land he can't play lodestone next turn. I took the crucible, but he got the sol land and laid lodestone down and beat me with it. I should have taken the lodestone, because at least crucible is a slow death and not a quick one and gives me time to find answers.

[Whitefaces]

The stax match was real weird, I T-seized him in the last game to see:

Lodestone
Crucible
Mox Diamond
Wasteland

His board was just city of traitors and Ratchet bomb ticked to 1.

Seeing the wasteland, I naturally thought crucible was the way to go, because I had Hymn in hand and unless he draws another land he can't play lodestone next turn. I took the crucible, but he got the sol land and laid lodestone down and beat me with it. I should have taken the lodestone, because at least crucible is a slow death and not a quick one and gives me time to find answers.

I think the Crucible is totally defensible as you have more answers (bolt, lili, goyf etc) to the lodestone than it.

Please keep the reports coming!

[iamajellydonut]

I mean, it depends on what you had for a board and what you had available, but going on a blind "pick the best card", I'd have also taken Crucible. That you didn't draw an out (shit, even a Goyf getting in the way) is just how you do sometimes.

[Svyelunite]

Miracles seems to be such an incredible good matchup, destroyed it without any effort in the Tests with friends so far.

I just wanted to chime in on this. I used to play Jund before I switched over to Infect. The Miracles matchup is far from overwhelmingly good, but not bad by any means. It really depends on which version of Miracles they are playing and how competent the pilot is. Miracles is a deck that is overplayed by underskilled pilots (at least in my experience). If they are on the version with Entreat the Angels, you better get a very aggressive game or they will bury you once they get to 6+ land. Jund just doesn't have the resources to stop 4+ angels most times. Mentor Miracles is probably much easier because Punishing Fire is so... punishing. The usual tactics apply, don't overextend into wraths, Decay the CB, Thoughtseize for Tops first BS/Ponder second. SB take out Hymn and Maelstrom Pulse, bring in Sylvan Library (if not main deck), K. Grips, and Scavenging Ooze. Miracles is one of the major reasons I still advocate playing a Treetop Village in Jund because it's yet another angle of attack that they have trouble dealing with through all of your disruption.

[wizard_of_gore]

I just wanted to chime in on this. I used to play Jund before I switched over to Infect. The Miracles matchup is far from overwhelmingly good, but not bad by any means. It really depends on which version of Miracles they are playing and how competent the pilot is. Miracles is a deck that is overplayed by underskilled pilots (at least in my experience). If they are on the version with Entreat the Angels, you better get a very aggressive game or they will bury you once they get to 6+ land. Jund just doesn't have the resources to stop 4+ angels most times. Mentor Miracles is probably much easier because Punishing Fire is so... punishing. The usual tactics apply, don't overextend into wraths, Decay the CB, Thoughtseize for Tops first BS/Ponder second. SB take out Hymn and Maelstrom Pulse, bring in Sylvan Library (if not main deck), K. Grips, and Scavenging Ooze. Miracles is one of the major reasons I still advocate playing a Treetop Village in Jund because it's yet another angle of attack that they have trouble dealing with through all of your disruption.

I dont think it's smart to board out hymns vs miracles. I KNOW - THEY CAN OPERATE JUST WITH TOP IN PLAY.... but, leaving them to operate just with top is better than top and additional cards in hand. In control - physical cards means options, and if you reduce their options, they are going to have a tough game. Keeping pressure on their resources is key to win.

btw. treetop village sounds cute

[Svyelunite]

I dont think it's smart to board out hymns vs miracles. I KNOW - THEY CAN OPERATE JUST WITH TOP IN PLAY.... but, leaving them to operate just with top is better than top and additional cards in hand. In control - physical cards means options, and if you reduce their options, they are going to have a tough game. Keeping pressure on their resources is key to win.

btw. treetop village sounds cute

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Hymn is bad vs. Miracles, I just think it's the weakest card and you have to cut something for your SB stuff which is presumably better than something MD. I guess Lightning Bolt could get cut first, but after that?

[wizard_of_gore]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Hymn is bad vs. Miracles, I just think it's the weakest card and you have to cut something for your SB stuff which is presumably better than something MD. I guess Lightning Bolt could get cut first, but after that?

Punishing fires. Most people will argue about that, but it's weakest card against miracles. Pyroblast is better and more effective at killing JTMS than punishing fires is. Just try to remember a lot of situation when you durdle around and sit back with p. fires in hand and doing nothing because its a dead card ini 90% situations. Killing JTMS with p. fire and grove of the burnwillows is a dream on paper, but not in practice. (Only situation where p. fires is good in g2 or 3 is if you play slaughter games in sb and extract their entreat leaving them with JTMS as a only real win condition and he can't win game over fires then)

[ironclad8690]

Just dropped out of today's daily event:

Shardless: 0-2

Game 1: I had to keep a 2 nonbasic land hand and got tempo'ed out by wasteland and multiple tarmogoyfs (never drew abrupt decay).

In: 2 Pyroblast, 1 Umezawa's Jitte, 1 Hymn to Tourach
Out: 4 Thoughtseize

Game 2: I get trolled by my lone taiga and didn't find another black source to cast liliana until he had a 2nd goyf. I went all in on him not having force of will by spending a Punishing Fire and Lightning Bolt to kill his tgoyf, but he forced it crippling my tempo. Goyf unchecked is the easiest way to lose this matchup.

Shardless: 1-2

Game 1: I win by curving out faster than him.

Same board plan as before

Game 2: I lose because he surgicals punishing fire and resolves too many ancestral visions.

Game 3: I lose because he surgicals punishing fire and I draw more poorly than him.

Total record 0-2.

[wizard_of_gore]

Could you post your whole decklist with sideboard, please?
btw., i think boaording out force of will against shardless is fine. In a grindy matchups (and by all definitions it is certanly against Shardless BUG) you don't want to disadvantage yourself because player with more value will win. Try to pyroblast their visions and/or JTMS, and keep decays against goyf. Dark confidant and sylvan library is MVP in this matchup, so do anything to protect your bob, it's so vital. If you untap with any of these, you are probably going to win.

[sleeper]

Hi. I'm new to Legacy and decided to start with Punishing Jund. I'm a decent modern Jund player and hoping some of that translates over.

I'm going to start by copying the 10th place deck at the latest SCG and then reworking it. I'm hoping to get in some practice before Seattle.

I'm wondering if anyone has any tips or nuances/tricks with the deck. Any tricks with Punishing Fire?

Thanks

[Seraphix]

Hi. I'm new to Legacy and decided to start with Punishing Jund. I'm a decent modern Jund player and hoping some of that translates over.

I'm going to start by copying the 10th place deck at the latest SCG and then reworking it. I'm hoping to get in some practice before Seattle.

I'm wondering if anyone has any tips or nuances/tricks with the deck. Any tricks with Punishing Fire?

Thanks

Just be heads up about triggering your Fires. Don't be that guy tapping two Groves to get two Fires back when you also have a non-Grove Red source (I see this ALL the time and it drives me crazy).

Overall I think its a pretty simple deck to play, just brush up your format knowledge so you know what to Thoughtseize, which sideboard cards are for which decks, etc.

[Quasim0ff]

Punishing fires. Most people will argue about that, but it's weakest card against miracles. Pyroblast is better and more effective at killing JTMS than punishing fires is. Just try to remember a lot of situation when you durdle around and sit back with p. fires in hand and doing nothing because its a dead card ini 90% situations. Killing JTMS with p. fire and grove of the burnwillows is a dream on paper, but not in practice. (Only situation where p. fires is good in g2 or 3 is if you play slaughter games in sb and extract their entreat leaving them with JTMS as a only real win condition and he can't win game over fires then)

Fire is significantly stronger in the matches versus Mentor though

[Whitefaces]

Just be heads up about triggering your Fires. Don't be that guy tapping two Groves to get two Fires back when you also have a non-Grove Red source (I see this ALL the time and it drives me crazy).

Drives me crazy as well!

Remember fires trigger from all lifegain too (for your opp), that includes things like Batterskull connecting.

Also, if you suspect your opponent has surgical extraction after G1, don't attempt to return a fire with a single Grove unless it's absolutely necessary. Once you get a second grove you can trigger the fire and the second protects it against the extraction.

[Svyelunite]

Drives me crazy as well!

Remember fires trigger from all lifegain too (for your opp), that includes things like Batterskull connecting.

Also, if you suspect your opponent has surgical extraction after G1, don't attempt to return a fire with a single Grove unless it's absolutely necessary. Once you get a second grove you can trigger the fire and the second protects it against the extraction.

Really saucy trick here: If they Extirpate your P.Fire, you can still return it. Mana abilities (like Grove of the Burnwillows) don't get stopped by Split Second so you can actually trigger and pay for the P.Fire while the Extirpate is on the stack. Doesn't come up often, but when it does you'll be glad you knew.

[Seraphix]

I got 23rd/304 at Eternal Extravaganza 3 over the weekend.

List:
4 Deathrite
4 Bob
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Thoughtseize
2 Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Liliana
1 Library

9 Fetchlands
2 Bayou
3 Badlands
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Groves
3 Wasteland

SB 2 Duress
SB 2 Surgical
SB 2 Cage
SB 2 Pyroblast
SB 2 Golgari Charm
SB 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB 1 Pernicous Deed
SB 1 Life from the Loam
SB 1 Trinisphere

I was expecting a fair-ish meta so I just jammed the 4th Fire in my maindeck flex slot. In the sideboard I tried a Deed instead of the usual Deluge. Otherwise basically the same 75 I've been playing for months.

Rounds:
Omni-Tell (1-2)
RUG Delver (2-0)
Death & Taxes (0-2)
GW Maverick (2-1)
Manaless Dredge (2-0)
Aggro Loam (2-1)
Storm (2-0)
RUG Delver (2-0)
Miracles (2-0)

Had some bad luck against D&T but absurdly good luck against Storm so I guess it evened out. I was expecting a bunch of Jund players to crawl out of the woodwork after the Dig banning but I surprisingly didn't see any others. Only change I would probably make is going back to 4 Decay instead of the Decay/Pulse split since I expect fewer zombie fish around moving forward.

[Anarky87]

Caleb Durward did an article and video series on Jund.

http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-calebd-legacy-jund/

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/catching-up-with-legacy/

I just got my Goyfs, so I'm going to be trying the deck out here in the future.

[Bobmans]

Caleb Durward did an article and video series on Jund.

http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-calebd-legacy-jund/

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/catching-up-with-legacy/

I just got my Goyfs, so I'm going to be trying the deck out here in the future.
Thnx for sharing. I'm just ready with assembling the deck. Will be running some games with/against friends tonight.

[Anarky87]

Not entirely related to the thread, but I'm playing in a Vintage tournament today and lacking any other options, I converted my Jund deck to Vintage. I'll report back on how this trainwreck goes. :tongue:

[Ricardio]

Not entirely related to the thread, but I'm playing in a Vintage tournament today and lacking any other options, I converted my Jund deck to Vintage. I'll report back on how this trainwreck goes. :tongue:

Eagerly awaiting that.

I'm looking into this deck for my legacy primary. Buddy of mine did well with it and I have most of the cards already from modern jund. It's this or rug delver.

[Anarky87]

There ended up only being 4 people who showed up for the tournament so we just did a round robin. I went 1-2. The last time I played vintage there were 3 shops players and a mentors deck, so I kinda tweaked my deck against those. In doing so I was ill prepared for all the Tinker > Blightsteel decks that came this time. All my game losses were to that, but I crushed the RUG Delver player. At one point I was rocking 2x Confidant and Sylvan Library and he couldn't keep up.

I've yet to be able to play my Legacy list though. Tournaments have kinda dropped off here recently. But I'm eager to hear how everyone else is doing.

[Asthereal]

Played a tourney today with my take on this deck. 34 people showed up, which was rather disappointing, but still. I'll start with my list, and then some explanations about choices I made.

Guys:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bloodbraid Elf /15

Spells:
3 Sensei's Divining Top (*1)
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress (*2)
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil /22

Lands:
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
1 Scrubland (*3.1)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta (*3.2)
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland /23

Sideboard:
3 Gaddock Teeg (*3.3)
2 Ethersworn Canonist (*3.4)
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage

Explanations
*1: I am one of those guys who draws awkward hands if my deck is not 100% streamlined. I need 12+ one-drops to even remotely consistently have one in my opener, and I really feel in Legacy one cannot afford to do nothing on turn one. Normal Jund plays 4x Seize, 4x Deathrite as one-drops. That's not enough for me. And normal Jund plays 20+ two-drops. That's a bit on the heavy side. So I decided to replace Sylvan Library with Top, turning a two-drop into a one-drop. During the tourney I loved Top, apart from the fact that Revoker and Peedle turning it off can be somewhat upsetting...

*2: Same kind of argument as *1, adding yet another one-drop instead of a two-drop. But this one is more than just that. Hymn can be game changing, sure, but it can also be a nuisance. It asks a lot of your mana, it doesn't influence the board state, and on the draw it only comes online after your opponent has had two full turns to do sick stuff. That's usually too much. Hence no more Hymns, and in come 2x Duress (the third obviously turned into the third Top, since I just really like the card). Did I miss Hymn during this tourney? No, not really. Duress targeting and being cheap was very nice.

*3: Here's the biggest change. I decided that Jund is nicely placed in the meta. Especially Punishing. It has a good match against most of the fair decks and a chance against combo. If I can turn that chance against combo into a sort of 50/50-ish thing, I'll be very happy. So in comes white for hate bears. This means the mana base will either be all non-basic, or rediculously shaky, since I am unwilling to play less than 4x Grove + 4x PunFire (this is the reason Jund has a good match against most fair decks!). So I gambled on the all non-basic base. I decided to run just one white source, because none of the matchups where white is important actually put pressure on my mana base. Scrubland was the obvious choice, since black mana is the most important, red the least, and Savannah makes no sense since Teeg costs both those colours, so Badlands+Savannah provides all colours I play but then I cannot cast Teeg.

The bears on side are 3x Teeg + 2x Canonist. Both are awesome against Storm (and related combo), but both also have their merits in other matchups. Teeg stops Sneak Attack, Dread Return, Miracle spells, Jace, Zenith and Natural Order, OmniTell stuff and some other things that can matter. Canonist can buy us time against Elves (which should be all we need) and maybe also against Burn, but I must admit I decided to sort of ignore that matchup. So Teeg has more applications, which is why I decided to run 3x Teeg + 2x Canonist.

Some other choices may also be debatable, but of course these are the obvious changes I made to the normal Jund lists running around. Now for the tourney. I should add that this was my first tourney in a while and also my first ever with this deck. (You might wonder why the changes instead of netdecking a proven list, but explanations are already added above. Besides, I don't really like netdecking anyway. :tongue: )

Round 1, against Sneak&Show
Game 1 I mull to 6 and he mulls to 4. He does manage to Show&Tell a Grisel, but I have Liliana online by the time he does. He draws 7 extra cards but he doesn't find enough resources to get a Sneak Attack online before I kill him. Awkward and definitely a tad lucky, but I'll take it.
Game 2 we both have a better start, but it turns out he boarded out 2x Force of Will for Blood Moons. Blood Moon I managed to destroy by tapping mana and letting it resolve, following up with a Charm. Show&Tell nr.1 got REB'd and Liliana got online to cancel out Show&Tell nr.2, after which he died. Never found a Teeg this game.
2-0 // 1-0-0

Round 2, against Death&Taxes
Game 1 he gets all sorts of stuff going while I durdle with awkward mana, draw all my answers a turn too late and so on. I probably scoop too late, which comes back to bite me later.
Game 2 is very interactive. We both struggle, but at some point I get double Grove double PunFire going, which (as I was told by a more experienced player) I didn't use aggressively enough, which also cost time. We started game 3 in the second extra turn after time was called in the round.
1-1-1 // 1-0-1

Round 3, against ANT
Game 1 I know to expect ANT because I know the player. He is from Team Nijmegen. Combo players mostly. They even designed their own Storm variant. They don't play it anymore though. I was on the draw here and got wrecked. I did manage to Thoughtseize him a bit but Brainstorm hid good cards away and his Duress took my second Thoughtseize. I died on his third turn to a Tendrils for 24 or so.
Game 2 I start turn 1 discard, turn 2 Teeg, turn 3 Canonist. He doesn't recover.
Game 3 is a bit more exciting. He is on the play but doesn't have the turn one, thankfully. I have discard and a hate bear. Hate bear dies to a Decay. I Waste his only green land. The second bear sticks and I kill him before he finds Chain of Vapor.
2-1 // 2-0-1

Round 4, against Death&Taxes with red for Recruiter and Magus of the Moon (booh!)
Game 1 I drew nine lands. All of them were Mountains. Sad story. I kept an opener of 4 lands, Top, guy, removal (on the play). Seemed okay because of the Top. Would you keep that hand? First Top activation saw three lands. Never made a second because he Revokered my Top. Four lands and a second Top later I scooped.
>Intermezzo: we get an in round deck check. Is that actually a thing? Rhythm gone, salty because of game 1, I wasn't happy. But still. He's got small dudes. I've got PunFire and Groves. I should be okay if I can keep that freaking Moon guy off the board.
Game 2 he floods a bit. I indeed find my PunFire and Groves and wreck him. Takes some time though.
Game 3 he manages to screw me over again by stopping my Top from working, Spellskyte being a nasty bugger, getting Moon dude on, protected by Spellskyte and a Mom, all of which I never find proper removal for. Do I run too little removal? I manage to stall this one out to a draw, but I'm dead on the board. Two guys playing Moon effects out of four opponents. What are the odds?
1-1-1 // 2-0-2 (Human, what are you doing?)

Round 5, against ANT (Need to win this now!)
Game 1 he mulls to five or so. I have discard, Liliana and a clock. It's too much. Yay! I win game one! I should be fine now. Two chances for my hate bears to grab the victory. It doesn't happen.
Game 2 I mull to six. Discard some stuff but he hid stuff away as well with Brainstorm. I don't get enough pressure on and he gets a row of Goblins on the board. I have Top but it doesn't find me a Charm.
Game 3 I mull to five. Duh. I have the more streamlined curve, the more flexible mana base (assuming he doesn't pressure my lands) and Top, but still I manage to draw horse crap. I do get to discard some stuff, but I don't have a clock. At some point I discard the wrong card, which allows him to go off soon after, but since I had no clock and I was stumbling on mana, it probably wasn't going to matter anyway. Still, lesson learned. I draw badly. It was an excellent idea to streamline my curve a bit, and whatever I try, I will still draw badly every now and then.
1-2 // 2-1-2 (Out of contention, but I forgot to drop...)

Round 6, against Reanimator (controllish list with Hapless and Izzet Charms)
Game 1 I have 3x Deathrite and a Grove as only land. I saw he played Reanimator so I gamble and keep it. I draw an extra Grove and get two of my Deathrites online (one got FoWed). Liliana joins the battle at some point. Lucky me = easy win.
Game 2 he has answers for my hate. Griselbrand joins the party. He is low on life but the only 7 he can draw gets him counters for my two Lilianas. My 6/7 Goyfs also get murdered for no apparent reason. Well played, sir.
Game 3 I have Deathrite, Cage, Spellbomb and Liliana. The artifacts get countered and destroyed, but Deathrite and Lily stick. A Goyf joins them and he goes down quickly.
2-1 // 3-1-2

Not the worst result for a first time with Jund and a first tourney in a long time. I was rusty, I didn't understand some of the matchups (Death&Taxes is weird, man!) and I made errors I shouldn't have, but positive notes are:
- I love Top. Cast early, only use when nothing better to do.
- Loved the cheap discard. Putting early pressure on the combo players was golden.
- The hate bears are awesome. Played ANT twice, could have won both, but played 1-1 where normally this is most likely 0-2 on my side of the score board.
- Non-basic mana base was quite okayish. Death&Taxes didn't pressure my mana base enough to make me worry about the non-basic only base. The Moon dudes were nasty, but D&T with Red is uncommon, to say the least, and I felt it was wrong for Sneak&Show to board Moons in against me. He hadn't seen my Scrub or Delta yet, so he should have expected me to be able to fetch basics game 2. Blood Moon also doesn't help his plan A to get a big guy into play. But the non-basic only base is a risk. Canadian Threshold might show that. I should test that matchup. Against the rest it felt doable and Moons shouldn't turn up so often. If they do, perhaps 'splash-White-Jund' should cut Wastelands for basics. That makes the mana base super solid, but Wastelands are good against some matchups. Tough call...

What do you guys think about:
A. Cutting Sylvan Library for Top?
B. Cutting Hymns for Duresses (or better: cutting Hymns in the first place. Duresses might all go to the board)?
C. Splashing white for sideboard hate bears?
D. Cutting Wastelands to make the white splash mess up the mana base a bit less?

[Seraphix]

...

A. Cutting Sylvan Library for Top?
B. Cutting Hymns for Duresses (or better: cutting Hymns in the first place. Duresses might all go to the board)?
C. Splashing white for sideboard hate bears?
D. Cutting Wastelands to make the white splash mess up the mana base a bit less?



I've tried Top in place of Library before. Top isn't bad and I wouldn't criticize someone for playing it, but I prefer Library.

I'd be reluctant to cut Hymn because it can be such a beating. I always complement Thoughtseize + Hymn with some number of sideboard Duress.

I've splashed White before, with an SB Scrubland along 2x G. Teeg and 2x Canonist. I only played this package at a few locals and didn't run into matchups where it came up much, so I can't really comment on how effective it is. I'd be willing to try it again though.

I don't think there's room for the Scrubland maindeck if you're on this plan. I would rather sacrifice a sideboard slot than drop all basics or trim Wastelands.


Speaking of sideboard tech, at the SCG Legcay Open this weekend (I scrubbed out at 3-4 on day 1) I saw a Jund player running Gamble and Chalice of the Void. Super interesting.

[sdematt]

I've tried Top in place of Library before. Top isn't bad and I wouldn't criticize someone for playing it, but I prefer Library.

I'd be reluctant to cut Hymn because it can be such a beating. I always complement Thoughtseize + Hymn with some number of sideboard Duress.

I've splashed White before, with an SB Scrubland along 2x G. Teeg and 2x Canonist. I only played this package at a few locals and didn't run into matchups where it came up much, so I can't really comment on how effective it is. I'd be willing to try it again though.

I don't think there's room for the Scrubland maindeck if you're on this plan. I would rather sacrifice a sideboard slot than drop all basics or trim Wastelands.


Speaking of sideboard tech, at the SCG Legcay Open this weekend (I scrubbed out at 3-4 on day 1) I saw a Jund player running Gamble and Chalice of the Void. Super interesting.

I realistically think the sacred cow no one wants to cut is Bloodbraid Elf. The deck opens up a lot more if you consider cutting Bloodbraid, and possibly even Bob (hear me out) to try Painful Truths. I'd like to see reactions before I post a list I've been trying, and somewhat liking.

-Matt

[Asthereal]

I've tried Top in place of Library before. Top isn't bad and I wouldn't criticize someone for playing it, but I prefer Library.

I'd be reluctant to cut Hymn because it can be such a beating. I always complement Thoughtseize + Hymn with some number of sideboard Duress.

I've splashed White before, with an SB Scrubland along 2x G. Teeg and 2x Canonist. I only played this package at a few locals and didn't run into matchups where it came up much, so I can't really comment on how effective it is. I'd be willing to try it again though.

I don't think there's room for the Scrubland maindeck if you're on this plan. I would rather sacrifice a sideboard slot than drop all basics or trim Wastelands.


Speaking of sideboard tech, at the SCG Legacy Open this weekend (I scrubbed out at 3-4 on day 1) I saw a Jund player running Gamble and Chalice of the Void. Super interesting.
Thanks for the reply. :smile:
The thing with the white splash is that you want many fetch lands to be able to find the Scrub, so you will drop most (if not all) of the Foothills, making your fetch base less optimized for finding your basics. But maybe it's worth the trade and the sideboard slot. I felt my sideboard was already really packed and had trouble cutting my 16th card already, so I never actually considered playing the Scrub on side. I'll try.

The Hymn point may be fair. Would you suggest I go 2x Top 3x Hymn and see how that curve suits me over the long run? This does get me back to EDIT1: 14 CMC1 and 19 CMC2 cards instead of 17 vs. 16 12 CMC1 and 19 CMC2 cards, instead of 15 vs. 16 (miscounted that one), which looks quite bad actually, but I could try it, if you feel Hymn is too good to pass up on.

Gamble and Chalice, wow. Interesting. My first thought: that's rediculous. But hey, out of the box is where the Magic happens. (Pun intended. :cool: )


I realistically think the sacred cow no one wants to cut is Bloodbraid Elf. The deck opens up a lot more if you consider cutting Bloodbraid, and possibly even Bob (hear me out) to try Painful Truths. I'd like to see reactions before I post a list I've been trying, and somewhat liking.

-Matt
Excellent suggestion. At night when I couldn't sleep, I also came to the conclusion that during the tourney Bloodbraid was by far the worst card in the deck. Maybe that's because I played against combo four times, but even against the rest it's super clunky and you don't always cascade into Liliana of Goyf. I also cascaded into irrelevant stuff twice. And I only cast four Bloodbraids anyway.

Replacing Bloodbraid in my list is very simple: Green Sun's Zenith! This complements my white splash extremely well, because I then need less Gaddock Teegs. Also it helps smooth out the curve again since Zenith for Arbor is now an option. I always wanted Zenith in this deck, but it doesn't play well with Bloodbraid, so if that one's gone, the coast is clear for Maverick style. EDIT2: First tryout list to follow shortly! Here's a tryout list: :smile:

ZENITH JUND

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant /13

4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil /24

3 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland /23

Sideboard:
1 Scrubland
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Pyroblast
2 Duress
3 Golgari Charm
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Nihil Spellbomb /15

[Ricardio]

A buddy of mine suggested rabblemaster as a replacement for bbe. Seems strong.

[Asthereal]

A buddy of mine suggested rabblemaster as a replacement for bbe. Seems strong.
I've seen Rabblemaster before in Jund. It's an interesting option, but for now I'll stick to the flexibility of Zenith, mainly because it supports everything I want to change about standard Jund lists: better combo matchups (Zenith for Teeg or grave hate dudes) and a smoother mana curve (Zenith for Arbor is a fine play on turn one, and Zenith can be used as a three-drop when you pick up a Goyf).

I have tinkered a bit with my Zenith list, adding Hymn to Tourach again. Two reasons:
1. Seraphix seems an experienced player with this deck, and he suggested I keep Hymn in.
2. Dropping Bloodbraid is another dent in the card advantage engine. Hymn is card advantage.

The new list feels strong, but I'll have to support that feeling with results (testing or otherwise).

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf /13

4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Forked Bolt (decided I want the highest impact for this one-of)
4 Punishing Fire
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sensei's Divining Top (adding up to 13 proper one-drops to aid the mana curve)
3 Liliana of the Veil /24

3 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland /23

Sideboard:
1 Scrubland
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Duress
3 Pyroblast
2 Golgari Charm
2 Toxic Deluge (with main deck only 9 removal, I may need some help from the board)
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Nihil Spellbomb /15

[Seraphix]

I've seen Rabblemaster before in Jund. It's an interesting option, but for now I'll stick to the flexibility of Zenith, mainly because it supports everything I want to change about standard Jund lists: better combo matchups (Zenith for Teeg or grave hate dudes) and a smoother mana curve (Zenith for Arbor is a fine play on turn one, and Zenith can be used as a three-drop when you pick up a Goyf).

I have tinkered a bit with my Zenith list, adding Hymn to Tourach again. Two reasons:
1. Seraphix seems an experienced player with this deck, and he suggested I keep Hymn in.
2. Dropping Bloodbraid is another dent in the card advantage engine. Hymn is card advantage.

The new list feels strong, but I'll have to support that feeling with results (testing or otherwise).

...



Rabblemaster is a fine card in Jund I think, but there isn't really room for him in a "stock" list and I wouldn't know what to cut. There was a guy on the South Florida Magic stream recently playing Jund with Rabblemaster instead of Tarmogoyf, which seems questionable. Tarmogoyf has gotten some flak recently but pound for pound he's still the best creature in Magic.

Zenith is an interesting idea but I'm not sure its what Jund is about, which is raw card advantage. Painful Truths is interesting as well but I'm not sure how to fit it in. I can't imagine sleeving it up without a bunch of Bloodbraids, Hymns, and the maximum amount of Lilianas I'm allowed to play. Then again, I'm very biased because I live to cast Bloodbraid Elf. I would definitely like to see testing results.

[Whitefaces]

I've been playing Truths in a bunch of Nic Fit decks, it's really strong. But you can't play it in a deck with BBE.

[Ricardio]

I've been playing Truths in a bunch of Nic Fit decks, it's really strong. But you can't play it in a deck with BBE.

Buts it's basically like shard less into visions /sarcasm.

I think we might play too much removal and the two drop spot is so heavy right now. I like the idea of more 1 drops because 8 seems low.

[Bobmans]

, but for now I'll stick to the flexibility of Zenith

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sensei's Divining Top (adding up to 13 proper one-drops to aid the mana curve)

Sideboard:
1 Scrubland
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage


You miss Scavenging Ooze, Courser of Kruphix, perhaps Huntmaster of the Fells and whatnot. This is a waste of GSZ, tbh. I see no real advantage in running GSZ if you have no real targets (aside of Teeg). I really like the idea of an hybrid Jund build tho. Will be following this.

Also Mirri's Guile is an easily overlooked card. It's a 1 mana investment that does nearly the same as you want SDT to do, but for free.

And no Kolaghan's Command? This card is a 2-for-1 in any case. Manacurve should not be an excuse.

[Seraphix]

Buts it's basically like shard less into visions /sarcasm.

I think we might play too much removal and the two drop spot is so heavy right now. I like the idea of more 1 drops because 8 seems low.

Cascading into Painful Truths seems really sweet tbh. But the only obvious cut I see in a stock build is the Library/Top type thing.

EDIT: This doesn't work the way I think it does, I'm an idiot.


You miss Scavenging Ooze, Courser of Kruphix, perhaps Huntmaster of the Fells and whatnot. This is a waste of GSZ, tbh. I see no real advantage in running GSZ if you have no real targets (aside of Teeg). I really like the idea of an hybrid Jund build tho. Will be following this.

Also Mirri's Guile is an easily overlooked card. It's a 1 mana investment that does nearly the same as you want SDT to do, but for free.

And no Kolaghan's Command? This card is a 2-for-1 in any case. Manacurve should not be an excuse.

I've considered Mirri's Guile but decided it was worse than both Top and Library. One of the advantages of Top over Library in my opinion is that its harder to blow up, which is very relevant against midrange and control decks. If I'm going to play a thing that just gets blown up I'd rather spend an extra mana for a library that can give me an opportunity to net cards.

I think once you start going deep on GSZ you have to wonder why you aren't just playing Punishing Nic-Fit. That's not a bad thing, its just a different deck.

[sdematt]

Cascading into Painful Truths seems really sweet tbh. But the only obvious cut I see in a stock build is the Library/Top type thing.

EDIT: This doesn't work the way I think it does, I'm an idiot.



I've considered Mirri's Guile but decided it was worse than both Top and Library. One of the advantages of Top over Library in my opinion is that its harder to blow up, which is very relevant against midrange and control decks. If I'm going to play a thing that just gets blown up I'd rather spend an extra mana for a library that can give me an opportunity to net cards.

I think once you start going deep on GSZ you have to wonder why you aren't just playing Punishing Nic-Fit. That's not a bad thing, its just a different deck.

Truths and sylvan should be enough. Without BBE you can play Truths

[sdematt]

Ill post my list later today.

[Asthereal]

You miss Scavenging Ooze, Courser of Kruphix, perhaps Huntmaster of the Fells and whatnot. This is a waste of GSZ, tbh. I see no real advantage in running GSZ if you have no real targets (aside of Teeg). I really like the idea of an hybrid Jund build tho. Will be following this.

Also Mirri's Guile is an easily overlooked card. It's a 1 mana investment that does nearly the same as you want SDT to do, but for free.

And no Kolaghan's Command? This card is a 2-for-1 in any case. Manacurve should not be an excuse.
My thoughts on those:
- Never considered Kolaghan's Command. It seems strong, but for three mana killing a small guy and perhaps discarding a card? I'm not sure whether that's actually that good.
- Mirri's Guile is a card, but the draw Top can get me is appealing. It also helps me to shuffle it away if I draw multiples. Just draw with it and then fetch. Guile doesn't do that. Seraphix's concern that it dies to removal I don't really share. If they want to waste a card on destroying that thing, that's fine my me. That feels like a waste of perfectly usable resources. :wink:

- Zenith into Huntmaster seems a little overelaborate. Huntmaster in itself is a good card though, but I'm not sure where to fit him in. Additionally, if I wanted a four drop, I would probably think of Garruk Relentless first. It might be worth a shot as 1/2-of though. Castable through Teeg (useful against f.i. Miracles) and it's about as high-impact as Bloodbraid, especially if he sticks. I'm adding him to my list of potential additions.
- Scooze was in there but got cut since Deathrite usually takes that role, but it could find its way back in. Not sure yet whether I really need it. Goyf is usually just fine as attacker.
- Courser is way too controllish for me. I don't think it fits our strategy.

I was planning on using Zenith mostly as either a Llanowar Elf or a CMC3 Goyf, with the additional benefit that it can get me Teeg, Deathrite or Reclamation Sage when that's necessary. Multi-purpose, without becoming an overly cute toolbox. That's why I didn't add too many targets. Playing many targets will ultimately lead to situations where you draw your targets when they suck, and my main goal was to streamline Jund as much as possible. It seemed wrong to undermine that idea.

[tescrin]

I was planning on using Zenith mostly as either a Llanowar Elf or a CMC3 Goyf, with the additional benefit that it can get me Teeg, Deathrite or Reclamation Sage when that's necessary. Multi-purpose, without becoming an overly cute toolbox. That's why I didn't add too many targets. Playing many targets will ultimately lead to situations where you draw your targets when they suck, and my main goal was to streamline Jund as much as possible.
I found that when I tried this in Junk, it was a bit mediocre against other midrange decks, which is where Goyf is good. Thalia really gums up the works and I found that a CMC3 or CMC4 Goyf was alarmingly worse, as dumb as that may sound.

At any rate, if your game against D&T/Maverick is still good then more power to ya; this is the type of thing I wouldn't mind figuring out.

[sdematt]

I found that when I tried this in Junk, it was a bit mediocre against other midrange decks, which is where Goyf is good. Thalia really gums up the works and I found that a CMC3 or CMC4 Goyf was alarmingly worse, as dumb as that may sound.

At any rate, if your game against D&T/Maverick is still good then more power to ya; this is the type of thing I wouldn't mind figuring out.

I wasn't thinking GSZ, but it's not a terrible idea. I was thinking since you're not cascading, you can now breathe the true power of Painful Truths. If you use it to "replace" Confidant, it means you can run your threat curve a bit higher.

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tombstalker
14

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Painful Truths
2 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Koth of the Hammer
2 Lightning Bolt

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
23

Basically, the build eschews Confidant to try a higher curve and Painful Truths. With graveyard pressure being low in a time post-Dig, why not try Tombstalker? Huntmaster is also seemingly good in a Shardless meta, as is the Fires engine. Tombstalker solves the Angler problem of being chumped on the ground, and since we're more heavy into black, we don't care about the 2 more mana. Koth is also a concession to a higher curve and to beating Miracles more handily in Game 1. Confidant is really good in that matchup, so we'll see.

It also means by dropping Bob, you get to run Golgari Charm/Deluge without worrying as much, since that was also a big concern - I have the Charm, but I want to keep Confidants.

Sideboard can obviously be tuned or what have you.

[Asthereal]

I wasn't thinking GSZ, but it's not a terrible idea. I was thinking since you're not cascading, you can now breathe the true power of Painful Truths. If you use it to "replace" Confidant, it means you can run your threat curve a bit higher.

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tombstalker
14

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Painful Truths
2 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Koth of the Hammer
2 Lightning Bolt

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
23

Basically, the build eschews Confidant to try a higher curve and Painful Truths. With graveyard pressure being low in a time post-Dig, why not try Tombstalker? Huntmaster is also seemingly good in a Shardless meta, as is the Fires engine. Tombstalker solves the Angler problem of being chumped on the ground, and since we're more heavy into black, we don't care about the 2 more mana. Koth is also a concession to a higher curve and to beating Miracles more handily in Game 1. Confidant is really good in that matchup, so we'll see.

It also means by dropping Bob, you get to run Golgari Charm/Deluge without worrying as much, since that was also a big concern - I have the Charm, but I want to keep Confidants.

Sideboard can obviously be tuned or what have you.
Couple things:
1. Your mana curve is 9 CMC1 - 2 of which often are not usable on turn 1, 18 CMC2, 6 CMC3 and 5 CMC4+. (Counting Stalker in that last one, since we're never casting him before turn 4. We don't run cantrips.) I would never play that. I need at least 11 reliable one drops, preferably 13+. Going down from the usual 8 to 7 seems very bad.
2. Your land base seems off. Why the Taiga? I'd run as much fetch as possible to fuel Deathrites mana ability, plus if you run Tombstalker without cantrips, you really need to find a way to fuel his delve.
3. If you want to up your curve, Zenith+Arbor seems a very natural addition, allowing you to ramp into that higher curve.
4. I would first try Garruk Relentless over Koth. Better all round abilities, and we run very little Mountains.
5. This list has 61 cards main deck.

[tescrin]

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tombstalker

I think this is a bit overly weak to RiP. I liked Tasigur as my "bob replacement" until I ran into the local "FUCK ALL GRAVEYARDS FOREVER" guy a couple times. Maybe I'm a bit paranoid at the moment.

EDIT: On Mirri's Guile
It's ok. I liked it as a way to add 1-drops to a deck if you need more consistent T1 plays but don't have the reliable mana to go Topping. That said, it's a little sad you can never do anything with it to get your card back. It's nice you don't have to spend mana, but it's a bit obnoxious you can't get that card that was 4th down or that second card out of the stack of 3 the turn you need to; you just have to be perpetually patient.

I did tend to win games I started with it, and being on curve or another use for T2 Deathrite mana felt good and it can't be hosed (Revoker, anti-draw cards), but it is a bit of a price to pay. Top's dichotomy tends to be that you need all of your mana, but you want to adjust the top cards so you can not draw garbage or so you can sequence properly.

[Asthereal]

EDIT: On Mirri's Guile
It's ok. I liked it as a way to add 1-drops to a deck if you need more consistent T1 plays but don't have the reliable mana to go Topping. That said, it's a little sad you can never do anything with it to get your card back. It's nice you don't have to spend mana, but it's a bit obnoxious you can't get that card that was 4th down or that second card out of the stack of 3 the turn you need to; you just have to be perpetually patient.

I did tend to win games I started with it, and being on curve or another use for T2 Deathrite mana felt good and it can't be hosed (Revoker, anti-draw cards), but it is a bit of a price to pay. Top's dichotomy tends to be that you need all of your mana, but you want to adjust the top cards so you can not draw garbage or so you can sequence properly.
That last point is very true. My basic rule is this: do I have stuff to do that either influences the board or disrupts my combo-playing opponent, then I do that. Activating Top is only done with mana I can actually spare or have left over after the above is considered. Top is an ideal way to spend that one mana you saved to play around Daze, and if we have a bad hand we don't want to cast any cards from, we can always use Top to find stuff we can use. It's mostly there to make sure we don't end up losing a long game because we draw three bad cards in a row.

Sylvan Library has that same purpose, mostly. Of course Sylvan can also be used to draw three cards against controllish decks or certain combo, but Top has the advantage of being able to be used as soon as we play it. Cast, check top three cards, rearrange, draw the card you want. Two mana spent to draw a useful card immidiately. Sylvan cannot do that for you. You'll have to wait until the next turn for it to be of use. Mirri's Guile has that same disadvantage.

[sdematt]

Couple things:
1. Your mana curve is 9 CMC1 - 2 of which often are not usable on turn 1, 18 CMC2, 6 CMC3 and 5 CMC4+. (Counting Stalker in that last one, since we're never casting him before turn 4. We don't run cantrips.) I would never play that. I need at least 11 reliable one drops, preferably 13+. Going down from the usual 8 to 7 seems very bad.
2. Your land base seems off. Why the Taiga? I'd run as much fetch as possible to fuel Deathrites mana ability, plus if you run Tombstalker without cantrips, you really need to find a way to fuel his delve.
3. If you want to up your curve, Zenith+Arbor seems a very natural addition, allowing you to ramp into that higher curve.
4. I would first try Garruk Relentless over Koth. Better all round abilities, and we run very little Mountains.
5. This list has 61 cards main deck.

Of course, this is just a testing list. It's meant to show a direction more than a concrete list.

[Seraphix]

Of course, this is just a testing list. It's meant to show a direction more than a concrete list.

I like how it looks. Could Young Pyromancer be worked into this somehow? Seems interesting to play next to Painful Truths. Also I love the idea of playing a bunch of cheap discard and burn spells to power out Tombstalkers.

[sdematt]

I mean, people are going to say STP nicks Stalker easily, and I'll agree. But realistically, that's the ONLY removal spell, and unless we're playing Thrun, every other threat is going to suffer the same problem. Before Delver, Eva Green was a real deck purely on the back of Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker.

Maybe Peezy could work in, but I think you could slant the deck and do that niche better in blue, since Brainstorm.

[Asthereal]

I mean, people are going to say STP nicks Stalker easily, and I'll agree. But realistically, that's the ONLY removal spell, and unless we're playing Thrun, every other threat is going to suffer the same problem. Before Delver, Eva Green was a real deck purely on the back of Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker.
Eva Green did support Stalker better because of Dark Rituals, but you have a point. Stalker does want me to add more fetch and cheap Bolts though, which makes it hard to keep playing 4x Grove 4x PunFire. I'll try to cough up a sample list regardless, dropping one of both:

Guys:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker /12

Spells:
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Painful Truths
3 Liliana of the Veil /26

Lands:
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland /22

Sideboard:
1 Scrubland
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Duress
3 Pyroblast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Nihil Spellbomb /15

This has a mana base with 14x initial green, 14x initial black, 14x initial red, with 8x Fetch and 4x Wasteland -> aggressive mana base. Same fetch/waste count as old Eva Green lists to fuel Stalker. One land less than original Jund because of the Zenith->Arbor option.
Zenith ups the Goyf/Stalker-count to 10 total, which is more aggressive than regular Jund. We also have 7x CMC1 discard and the full set of Lightning Bolts to fuel the grave early on, hoping to get Stalker out on turn 3 or 4. PunFire is now more of a late game option instead of Plan A (which it was for my old list).

How does that look?

[Hmmm_Really?]

@Asthereal, no Sylvan Library?

[Asthereal]

@Asthereal, no Sylvan Library?
Painful Truths took its place. But it's not set in stone, this is just a draft.

[Madsk]

I have alot of issues with double black when faceing wasteland/stifle decks.
I find it strange that i find few to none lists without grove and punishing fire, gives more bolts and black sources.
That said i find jund to be very weak vs punishing fire. I been looking to adress treats thats not weak to gy hate and atm i test out Pack Rat (became better with pfire and Loam)

Anyone with simulere idees,
My list atm:
4 drs
4 dc
4 goyf
2 bbe
4 abrupt decay
4 lightning bolt
1 maelstrom pulse
1 command
2 sylvan Library
3 hymn
4 ts
4 liliana
4 verdant catacombs
3 bloodstained
2 wooded foothills
3 badlands
1 taiga
3 bayou
4 wasteland
1 forest
2 swamp

Sb something like
3 choke
2 reb
2 surgical
1 Loam
1 grafdiggers cage
1 pithing needle
1 engineered plauge
2 duress
2 xxx typically something like toxic deluge, null rod, chains of mephistoles, golgari charm, pack rat/Thrun or boil

[Anarky87]

You could always run 1 Urborg instead of the Taiga. That's what I've been doing and I've been fine.

[Seraphix]

I have alot of issues with double black when faceing wasteland/stifle decks.
I find it strange that i find few to none lists without grove and punishing fire, gives more bolts and black sources.
That said i find jund to be very weak vs punishing fire. I been looking to adress treats thats not weak to gy hate and atm i test out Pack Rat (became better with pfire and Loam)

...



The mana in the Punishing version certainly isn't great, but it works. I think the upside of Punishing Fire is high enough to justify it.

If I wasn't playing Punishing Fire I think I'd want to jam a few Moons in the board.

[Asthereal]

Doesn't this deck just suck without Grove/PunFire?
It gives us an edge against D&T, Elves, Shardless, mirror, Blade, some Delver decks.

Anyway, I played a small (15 guys) tourney today. Invitational QF of my LGS. Stakes were high because I hadn't yet earned my ticket, and the Invitational has juicy prize supp. I ran a highly unorthodox list, which should come to no surprise to those who read my previous posts here. I cut Bloodbraids because they are just not very good in Legacy (slow, random bonus effect), and replaced them with Zeniths. I also ran a white splash for Teeg and Canonist (lots of combo here in NL!), and because this messes up the mana base big time, and I missed my basics last tourney, I decided to be drastic and cut Wastelands. Against which decks do I really need them? Lands? Infect? I don't know, and I decided I wanted a better colour base so they had to go.

ZENITH JUND by Asthereal

1 Dryad Arbor (to Zenith for)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant /13

2 Sensei's Divining Top (fits my mana curve better than Sylvan Library)
3 Green Sun's Zenith (curves T1 Arbor, T2 Deathrite or CMC3 Goyf - fetches sideboard Teeg and Sage)
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Terminate (test slot)
3 Liliana of the Veil /26

3 Badlands
3 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Grove of the Burnwillows /21

Sideboard:
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Duress
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Nihil Spellbomb /15

Round 1 - Ur OmniTell

Game 1: He wins the roll. He plays Island-Ponder. I play Catacombs-go. He plays land, Petal, Show and Tell. I drop Goyf, he drops Omniscience. He casts Griselbrand and Emrakul, takes the extra turn and attacks. He doesn't yet know what I play (could be BUG Delver too) so he can't properly board yet.
(Board: -4 Decay, -4 PunFire, -2 Bolt, -1 Terminate, -1 Top (maybe a Goyf instead), -1 Grove, +the whole board except for Spellbombs.)
Game 2: This game I have 2x REB. He does manage to S&T and FoW my REB on it, but this makes him pitch the Cunning Wish he needed for the instant win. My second REB destroys the Omniscience he dropped. My guys kill him.
Game 3: He mulls. I discard some stuff and Liliana keeps his hand empty. Turns out he didn't play Enter the Infinite, so boarding in Teeg was wrong, but oh well, it's only one creature, and it does stop Force of Will on REB.
2-1 / 1-0-0

Round 2 - Infect
Game 1: I lose the roll again. I kill a few Infect guys, but at some point he does attack and goes Invigorate-Berserk. I have my silver bullet Terminate though, which makes a three for one! Pretty good.
(Board: -3 Hymn, -2 Top, +2 Duress, +2 Charm, +1 Deluge.)
Game 2: I have an awkward hand and I am much too slow against his row of Glisteners. I misplayed here, allowing him to Waste one of my lands, but I don't think I really had a chance here anyway. I play extra one-drops because I am convinced the mana curve of regular Jund is terrible, but somehow I fail to draw them and end up with clunky draws anyway. Stupid variance.
Game 3: We both have a somewhat slow start, but I get double Grove-PunFire going and the extra Bolt I draw also helps. He doesn't find protection spells, so the burn wins me the game when he has to go for it.
2-1 / 2-0-0

Round 3 - BUG Creature Control (Tasigurs, new Commander guy, Strix, Clique - cool deck)

Game 1: I lose the roll again, but his deck sort of scoops to Grove/PunFire combo. That and Liliana on an empty board means easy win.
(Board: -3 Hymn, +1 Deluge (in case he goes nuts), +2 REB to protect Liliana or kill Jace/Strix.)
Game 2: He gets a bit more going this time, but he is a land short to cast the Commander dude (GB2 is pretty steap). PunFire and Dark Confidant get me ahead and a Deathrite and an extra Bolt finish it. Cool deck, but afterwards he explained this was his worst matchup by far. I believe him and we discuss options. Turns out he had no Liliana's, so he'll be adding those later if he gets the chance. I advised him to add Surgical Extractions to the board to try not to get wrecked by PunFire.
2-0 / 3-0-0

Round 4 - Mono-R Sneak Attack
We ID, because the we are both sure of our top 4 spot, and also we are both sure to be nrs. 1 and 2, so we get to be on the play in the semi-finals.

Semi-final - ANT
Game 1: I am on the play against Tom with ANT. I always lose against him, so that's a bad sign, but I have a LOT of hate against combo, so who knows. We both mull, I keep my six, he goes to five. I don't have much, but his five are not great. He has many discard spells and no business. He removes my Top and Zenith (he knows my tech and fears I may have a Teeg main deck, for which he has no answer), but I get to stick a Liliana. She keeps his hand empty while my small dudes eat him.
(Board: -4 Decay, -4 PunFire, -2 Bolt, -1 Terminate, -1 Top (wrong-should be Grove or Forest), -1 Goyf, -1 Confidant (should be another Goyf perhaps), +the whole board except for Sage.)
Game 2: I keep a hand with awkward mana (just one B), Spellbomb, REB and Deathrite. I counter a few cantrips but he sticks a Top and that's soo good against me. I find no Lily or hate bear and he just kills me. His Ad Nauseam doesn't draw the immidiate win, but four Petals and many cantrips find him the LED he needs.
Game 3: I keep Duress, Seize, Zenith, and 3x land. The first discard spell sees Top, Brainstorm, Chain of Vapor, Infernal and lands. I probably should have taken Top here, but I took Infernal instead. He goes land-Top. I play Seize next turn and it turns out he drew a new Infernal. I have to take that now, because Brainstorm and Top can find him two accelleration spells really fast and if that happens I am definitely dead. I was tempted to take his Chain but it turned out he was sandbagging a Decay with Top so good thing I didn't do that. His Top and Brainstorm do soon find him mana and an Ad Nauseam. Chain and Decay keep Teeg off the board and he goes for Ad Nauseam, but draws weird stuff and he has to go for 10 goblins and a hand full of stuff. I can't kill him though because I found Deathrite one turn too late, and I have to pass with Confidant, 2x Goyf and Deathrite on the table opposing his 10 goblin tokens (one of which I signed - Tom appointed that particular token as squad leader! :cool: ). He cantrips three times (all drawn with AdN last turn), and manages to find the LED and extra accell he still needed to actually murder me. He plays it out correctly and shows me Tendrils instead of extreme showboating with Past in Flames. Tom is an awesome guy, but I am getting sick of losing against him. :tongue:
1-2 / 3-1-1

My score gets me into third place, but no Invitational ticket for me. :frown: This third place does net me a small amount of store credit, which I use to acquire a few useful cards for Modern. I'll be playing that format a bit more often next year (monthly tourneys at the LGS no longer collide with Legacy, which is seriously sweet!).

Props:
- I like all my changes to the regular Jund list. Didn't miss Wasteland, loved Zenith, desperately needed the imporved mana curve (actually wasn't good enough still), silver bullet Terminate wins me a game!
- Used all my sideboard cards.
- Nice opponents, nice relaxed atmosphere.

Slops:
- Variance. (I know. I should play chess. In fact, I do play chess. Just not all the time. :tongue: )
- Always losing against Tom.

I know my list is very different from most here. If any of you have questions or suggestions, be sure to let me know. I am editing in how I boarded at the moment.

[Seraphix]

Thanks for sharing your results. Improving the manabase by dropping Wasteland instead of Grove is pretty interesting. It's just hard for me to imagine playing a midrangey fair deck without Wasteland. I don't think I've ever registered a deck with fewer than 3 Wastelands.

[Asthereal]

Thanks for sharing your results. Improving the manabase by dropping Wasteland instead of Grove is pretty interesting. It's just hard for me to imagine playing a midrangey fair deck without Wasteland. I don't think I've ever registered a deck with fewer than 3 Wastelands.
I know. The thing is, it's really hard to evaluate the card, because it's difficult to determine when wasting a certain land helps us so much that we win a game instead of losing it, versus the hands we draw with awkward mana because Wasteland taps for colourless only. For me, dropping Bloodbraid for Zenith and Sylvan for Top were more or less obvious things to try, but cutting Wastelands still feels weird.

But hey, outside the confort zone is where the Magic happens. :wink:

[Anarky87]

Ran Jund at a tournament today. Went 4-0-1 to make T8 as #1 seed, but then lost in the quarterfinals to Infect in 3 games. Deck felt strong all day, just got some less than stellar draws against Infect I felt (never saw PF).


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library
4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth


-Sideboard-

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Choke
1 Slaughter Games
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Trinisphere


I played against Elves (2-1), Miracles (2-1), Goblins (2-1), Death and Taxes (2-0), Loam Pox (0-0-3), Infect (1-2)

[jraniga]

Been playing Jund for a while and trying new things based on the discussions here. tried out a list with zenith and Painful truths (no bobs or BBE). Haven't done extensive testing with this list but I do have alot of matches under my belt with the traditional jund list.

23 land (1 arbor, 4 wasteland (not taxed on double black as much in this list))
4 DRS
4 Goyf
1 Scooze
4 fires
3 bolt
4 decay
3 Lili
4 thoughtseize
3 Inquisition (to lower curve to fit with Truths better)
1 Library
3 Zenith
3 Painful Truths

Some thoughts on Zenith and Truths below.

I think Zenith is a very useful card for Jund. It smooths out draws, provides acceleration, can be a very good clock (Being extra goyfs) and provides some sideboard utility with Gaddog Teeg etc. I have been very impressed with it so far and would like to find the optimal list that includes 3 of these.

I was not as impressed with painful truths. Brief comparison with BBE (although to be fair the comparison should be with Bob but I think the cards are close, but truths and Zenith push you away from playing BBE);
Pros of truths;

Costs 3 mana
Up two cards
Helps make land drops


Cons of Truths compared to BBE

No effect on board (this I think is the biggest factor). It is very awkward to play if you are behind on the board even slightly as often it takes your whole turn and speeds up the opponents clock. Not having free spells (FOW, daze) really hampers the effectiveness of this card. BBE provides a much better clock and is great against planeswalkers and more importantly can get you ahead immediately if the board is even or if you are slightly behind.
3 life is not irrelevant
Does not work well with Wasteland (colourless mana)
Worse against counterspells


There are many times where I have been frustrated at not being able to cast BBE because you don't reach 4 mana. But the raw power level of BBE I think is needed. So I will be trying something a bit different over the coming weeks. Playing Zenith and BBE together. It's obviously not great when you hit zenith with BBE but Zenith does allow you to cast BBE more consistently and quicker.

23 land (1 arbor, 3 wasteland)
4 DRS
4 Goyf
1 Scooze
4 fires
2 bolt
3 decay
3 Lili
4 thoughtseize
3 Hymn
3 Zenith
3 Bob
3 BBE

This version loses some raw card advantage compared to the regular lists (fewer bobs, libraries etc) but adds some consistency with Zenith and some flexibility in the board. What are peoples thoughts? I will report back in a few weeks after some testing.

[tescrin]

This version loses some raw card advantage compared to the regular lists (fewer bobs, libraries etc) but adds some consistency with Zenith and some flexibility in the board. What are peoples thoughts? I will report back in a few weeks after some testing.
1. Please go read Green Sun's Zenith
2. Then read Cascade
3. Repeat steps 1 and 2 until you figure out why this does not increase the consistency of finding BBE, at least.. not in the way you want.

[jraniga]

1. Please go read Green Sun's Zenith
2. Then read Cascade
3. Repeat steps 1 and 2 until you figure out why this does not increase the consistency of finding BBE, at least.. not in the way you want.

Well I did say it lets you cast BBE more consistently and quicker because it gets you Arbor/DRS for consistent mana/ramp. One of the big issues with the traditional Jund list is BBE can get stuck in your hand as one wasteland or removal on DRS means you can't cast it for a while. So I don't think you have understood what I wrote.

[Asthereal]

Well I did say it lets you cast BBE more consistently and quicker because it gets you Arbor/DRS for consistent mana/ramp. One of the big issues with the traditional Jund list is BBE can get stuck in your hand as one wasteland or removal on DRS means you can't cast it for a while. So I don't think you have understood what I wrote.
Indeed it was about consistently casting Bloodbraid. Your argument was clear. To me, at least.

But he's not wrong about the other thing. Zenith for Bloodbraid doesn't allow cascade, and Bloodbraid cascading into Zenith also sucks. These two, plus the fact that Bloodbraid nets us random advantage most of the time, which I am kind of allergic to since I tend to be unlucky when randomness occurs, made me drop them when I added Zeniths. If you still want high value CMC4 cards, there's a number of options to consider as replacement for Bloodbraid. I think the most interesting ones are:
1. Huntmaster of the Fells
2. Garruk Relentless
3. Xenagos, the Reveler
4. Thrun, the Last Troll

At first glance 1x Huntmaster and 2x Garruk looks like the way to go.

[jraniga]

Indeed it was about consistently casting Bloodbraid. Your argument was clear. To me, at least.

But he's not wrong about the other thing. Zenith for Bloodbraid doesn't allow cascade, and Bloodbraid cascading into Zenith also sucks. These two, plus the fact that Bloodbraid nets us random advantage most of the time, which I am kind of allergic to since I tend to be unlucky when randomness occurs, made me drop them when I added Zeniths. If you still want high value CMC4 cards, there's a number of options to consider as replacement for Bloodbraid. I think the most interesting ones are:
1. Huntmaster of the Fells
2. Garruk Relentless
3. Xenagos, the Reveler
4. Thrun, the Last Troll

At first glance 1x Huntmaster and 2x Garruk looks like the way to go.

Those options are ok but not very impactful. The walkers are great against miracles but sub-par for 4 mana against most other decks. Thrun is usually smaller than most goyfs. I think Huntmaster is the best of the lot since you can find him with Zenith but from experience he is usually not very impactful. I would probably run a couple more scavenging ooze before I consider those cards. Also think one Courser should be added before those cards.

But despite the randomness of BBE and the fact it doesn't work well with zenith, something I'm well aware of, I think the raw power level of BBE is enough to warrant some testing. None of these cards are remotely close to the power level of BBE if it hits any relevant spell, even if its just a punishing fire to the face. And a 3/2 haste with no upside is on par or better in many situations than most of these cards as well.

[Anarky87]

I didn't have any problems casting it this past Saturday (save a few times my mana was under attack). The handful of times I did cast I hit only gas: either it flipped a Goyf or Bob, or a Hymn to take out the last cards in my opponents hand, etc. But I could see where it might be a dud sometimes. Overall though I enjoyed the list I ran and will probably stick with it for the time being.

[nedleeds]

The walkers are great against miracles but sub-par for 4 mana against most other decks.

This is false. Garruk is a beating vs. Shardless Internet BUG. Shardless made up +15% in the last two ~40 person legacies I've entered. He can get you back to parity with some of the card advantage a deck like shardless can accrue.

[Asthereal]

The walkers are great against miracles but sub-par for 4 mana against most other decks.
Garruk also helps against Shardless, the mirror and most StoneBlade variants, and it's just good in any game that becomes a bit grindy. There's only one matchup where I'd prefer BBE over Garruk every singe time, and that's the matchup where I board many of them out anyway: combo.



Thrun is usually smaller than most goyfs. (...) I would probably run a couple more scavenging ooze before I consider those cards.
You already max out on Goyfs. We're talking about a BBE replacement. Thrun is bigger than BBE, and it doesn't die to everything. Thrun is also usually bigger than Scavenging Ooze and again Thrun doesn't die to every removal spell.



I think Huntmaster is the best of the lot since you can find him with Zenith but from experience he is usually not very impactful.
I'd like to see your test results with Huntmaster. Not very impactful? Even if he gets killed instantly, he still nets you +2 life and a 2/2 wolf.



Also think one Courser should be added before those cards.
Courser is a great card, but it's very passive. I haven't tried it yet but it's an option.



(...) a 3/2 haste with no upside is on par or better in many situations than most of these cards as well.
No it isn't.

[nedleeds]

Huntmaster is fine, his ceiling is lower than BBE (which is attacking unblocked, cascading into the best possible spell for the gamestate), but his floor is way higher. You know what you are getting and can GSZ for him. He's fantastic against Shardless, Burn, and even control decks where you don't want to overextend. You can also construct your deck with better cards by eschewing BBE and Bob, cards like Tombstalker, Painful Truths and GSZ. I top 2 split a SCG IQ with Jund and didn't play Bob, BBE or Punishing Fire.

[jraniga]

Garruk also helps against Shardless, the mirror and most StoneBlade variants, and it's just good in any game that becomes a bit grindy. There's only one matchup where I'd prefer BBE over Garruk every singe time, and that's the matchup where I board many of them out anyway: combo.



You already max out on Goyfs. We're talking about a BBE replacement. Thrun is bigger than BBE, and it doesn't die to everything. Thrun is also usually bigger than Scavenging Ooze and again Thrun doesn't die to every removal spell.



I'd like to see your test results with Huntmaster. Not very impactful? Even if he gets killed instantly, he still nets you +2 life and a 2/2 wolf.



Courser is a great card, but it's very passive. I haven't tried it yet but it's an option.



No it isn't.

The matchups Garruk helps in are the matchups we are favoured in, the ones where punishing fire shines. It's often very difficult to make up for the lost CA against shardless without punishing fires, Garruk helps but it is likely more of a nuisance than something that turns things around. There is I find usually more things to sideout before we can get rid of all BBE's against combo, but it varies depending on the combo deck. Also I can't see playing more than 1 of him and he can't be zenithed which I think reduces his effectiveness significantly.

My point about Thrun is at 4 mana it gets outclassed by other 2 mana creatures. Sure it will never die but it is not likely to get you anywhere either. And scavenging ooze that hasn't died will most likely be bigger than Thrun, as the matchups involving these cards will involve creatures dying.

Compare the two sides of BBE and Huntmaster. 3/2 haste vs 2/2 with possibility of flip. Call that even, although the haste with 3 power is super relevant against combo. If he flips immediately than huntmaster is better. 2/2 wolf and 2 life vs a random card from your deck, I would take the random card anyday.

Courser is quite passive and I haven't played much with him previously, but it seems like a decent CA option as a one-off flex spot. I think it fills a similar role to huntmaster but at a better spot on curve. Will need to test to see if it works well or not.

I still think the floor on BBE is much higher than its given credit. It helps kill combo much faster than any of the other options, is CA almost always against the fair decks. It's ceiling is obviously very high but I think its floor is almost comparable to the floor of many of the other options listed.

[Asthereal]

Played a monthly tourney at the LGS yesterday.
I went a disappointing 3-2.
Wins: Death&taxes, Burn, Infect.
Losses: Mentor Miracles, Shardless BUG.

Against Shardless I drew 8 lands game 1. Game 2 I had to mull, and my Hymn hit two irrelevant cards, after which his hit my two most relevant cards. Hard luck, I guess. Also I never found the PunFire combo, which I probably need to win this matchup.
Against Miracles (best player at my LGS) I got outplayed, but he also always seemed to have exactly what he needed. I was sad he didn't play Delver, because that's what he successfully played last year, and my list was more tuned for that matchup than for Miracles.

I am somewhat on the fence about Zenith. I found I never want to Zenith for the Dryad Arbor. I added Zenith to have a large number of turn one plays, but if I never Zenith for Arbor even when that's the only turn one play I can make with that particular hand, there's not much sense in playing Zenith anyway. It's just a more expensive Goyf half the time. The upside of it fetching me Teeg against combo is huge, but not big enough I feel.



List I played
List I'll be testing


-guys:
-guys:


1 Dryad Arbor
4 Deathrite Shaman


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf


4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant


4 Dark Confidant
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang


-spells:
-spells:


3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Sensei's Divining Top


4 Thoughtseize
4 Thoughtseize


3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Hymn to Tourach


2 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Bolt


4 Punishing Fire
4 Punishing Fire


4 Abrupt Dcay
4 Abrupt Dcay


3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Liliana of the Veil


3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Garruk Relentless


-lands:
1 Duress


3 Badlands
-lands:


3 Bayou
3 Badlands


1 Scrubland
3 Bayou


1 Swamp
1 Swamp


1 Forest
1 Forest


4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Verdant Catacombs


4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bloodstained Mire


4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Wooded Foothills


-sideboard:
4 Grove of the Burnwillows


1 Gaddock Teeg
-sideboard:


4 Duress
3 Duress


3 Pyroblast
3 Pyroblast


1 Hymn to Tourach
3 Scab-Clan Berserker


1 Reclamation Sage
3 Golgari Charm


2 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction


1 Toxic Deluge
1 Nihil Spellbomb


2 Surgical Extraction



Thoughts?

[nedleeds]

It's often very difficult to make up for the lost CA against shardless without punishing fires

Not in my experience when you play with Sylvan Library, K-Command, Huntmaster, Garruk and Painful Truths. It's more of a play draw situation to see who gets Hymn'ed first. Being on the draw vs. Shardless your number one priority is to bolt their DRS.

[AngryTroll]

I've been playing a Jund list without Punishing Fire for a few months to take advantage of the better Grove-less manabase. I've had pretty good results, but haven't seen anyone else playing a similar list until recently. First, here's the list I've been running.


4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Veteran Explorer
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Huntmaster of the Fells

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Liliana of the Veil

3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
2 Painful Truths

2 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
3 Taiga
2 Badlands
1 Dryad Arbor

-----Sideboard-----
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Duress
3 Slaughter Games
2 Krosan Grip
1 Fire Covenant
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

The Kolaghan's Commands have been extremely good. I'm not sure why they don't see more play, especially in Bloodbraid Elf versions of the deck. The Painful Truths have also been excellent, but their dis-synergy with Bloodbraid really limits which Jund decks can play them.

I've had mixed results with the Grim Lavamancers-they are excellent against all of the fair decks, and they sacrifice to Cabal Therapy against the unfair decks, but they are worse against Miracles than Punishing Fire, and they can be a bit slow on the draw against an aggressive Delver or Stoneforge start. In the above list I'm light on Lilianas to make room for the Lavamancers-more on this in a bit.


I recently noticed a Grove-less Jund deck that did well in one of the SCG events. Sean O'Brien (this is not me) placed 2nd at the SCG IQ on 12/27/15 with this list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=97362):


4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Granger Guildmage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Tombstalker

3 Lightning Bolt
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Painful Truths

1 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless

1 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland

-----Sideboard-----
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Dread of Night
1 Null Rod
1 Choke
1 Engineered Plague
1 Obstinate Baloth
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip

I am a bit surprised that this list doesn't have a single Thrun somewhere in the 75, but I guess Garruk Relentless fills a similar role for grindy matchups. The Granger Guildmage is clearly a GSZ-able Grim Lavamancer, and I'd be curious to see if it pulled its weight during the tournament.


The three-drop slot is a bit crowded, with Liliana, Kolaghan's Command, and Painful Truths all crowding for spots. Both of the lists in this post have that problem. In my list I skimped on Lilianas in favor of Grim Lavamancers for their synergy with Cabal Therapy, which is at it's best in the matchups where Lavamancer is worst. I really like the look of O'Brian's list and might switch from Therapy to Thoughtseize, which lets a cascade of changes occur: -1 Explorer, -3 Lavamancers, -1 Dryad Arbor, -some GSZ, -some basics, +4 Wastelands, +2 Liliana, etc.

The biggest question about this style of deck is whether the improved manabase is worth the loss of Punishing Fire. Has anyone else played around with this style of Jund deck? Is the Groves manabase worth access to Punishing Fire? Why isn't anyone else running Kolaghan's Command?

[H]

I recently noticed a Grove-less Jund deck that did well in one of the SCG events. Sean O'Brien (this is not me) placed 2nd at the SCG IQ on 12/27/15 with this list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=97362).

...

The biggest question about this style of deck is whether the improved manabase is worth the loss of Punishing Fire. Has anyone else played around with this style of Jund deck?

You can ask him yourself, Sean just posted directly above yours.

[AngryTroll]

You can ask him yourself, Sean just posted directly above yours.

I was hoping the owner of the deck was here on the Source, but I searched back four or five pages and didn't see anything like his Grove-less list. So, specific questions:
Was Granger Guildmage good enough to run again? At one point I had a split of 2 Lavamancers and 1 Guildmage, because it does kill most unflipped Delvers, Dark Confidant, Young Pyromancer, Thalias, Mother of Runes (sometimes), Phyrexian Revoker, and prevents Goyfs from bouncing off of each other in combat. Did you ever use the first strike ability (DRS activation for W)?

How did you feel about the mix of Sylvan Libraries and Painful Truths? I can never decide if I want to play 2/2, 3/1, or 3/2.

Have you found Kolaghan's Command to be awesome? It's actually the biggest reason for me to run red over white in my NicFit/Jund monstrosity. Swords > Bolt, Teeg is a great GSZ target, and Rhinos are better than Huntmasters, but Kolaghan's Command has no real equal in Junk colors.

Is Thrun unnecessary?

[Seraphix]

...

Is Thrun unnecessary?

Thrun really isn't comparable with value cards like BBE, Huntmaster, and Garruk Relentless.

What he's good at is not being countered and dodging some removal...but that's about it.

He's too slow against Delver, and even in play is a poor defense against Tarmogoyf, Delver, Pyro, or Gurmag. In midrange mirrors uncounterability isn't very relevant, not to mention stuff like Liliana and Deluge that can answer him could be in the mix, and he's still smaller than a Tarmogoyf.

Miracles is the only matchup where I really would want him, and even there he isn't invulnerable and still gets dealt with by Terminus and Judgment. He's even less good than before now that they can gum up the ground with Monks.

[H]

I was hoping the owner of the deck was here on the Source, but I searched back four or five pages and didn't see anything like his Grove-less list.

His tourament report is here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30262-Carpet-Capital-of-Georgia-IQ-Split-with-nedleeds&p=924075&viewfull=1#post924075). As for the rest, I'll let him answer.

However, in my limited experience, K Command is a really good card.

[nedleeds]

I was hoping the owner of the deck was here on the Source, but I searched back four or five pages and didn't see anything like his Grove-less list.

I don't post much of anything in the deck forums unless I've played and done well with a deck at an event of some size (35+). I also hate the internet.


Was Granger Guildmage good enough to run again?

It is what it is. It kills one toughness things, if you expect to face many things with 1 toughness it's a decent card. You have 2 because of zenith. I think its {R} uses are pretty obvious. Because I chose not to run Punishing Fire I wanted something to win out against a deck like elves. You also note that it has text in Tarmogoyf wars.



Did you ever use the first strike ability (DRS activation for W)?

No. I could get behind a Scrubland in the deck and a Gaddock Teeg in the sideboard to enable the ability via a land. First Strike and Lightning Bolt is a nice combat trick to use vs. mules.



How did you feel about the mix of Sylvan Libraries and Painful Truths? I can never decide if I want to play 2/2, 3/1, or 3/2.


They are both very good cards that you don't typically want to draw 3 of. I turn 2'ed truths on my second turn of DRS a few times even then it felt pretty good, I also unmulliganed with it, something you can normally only get with Brainstorm.



Have you found Kolaghan's Command to be awesome?


It's a very good card in an asmadi deck. I'm not sure what the bar for awesome is. People were opining about being unable to achieve parity with Shardless because of all the 2-for-1s asmadi has just as many. Agent into DRS? Command them both. Attack. It's also a nice trick in a deck that can get the opponents hand size low via Hymn and LOtV.


Is Thrun unnecessary?

I think the only necessary cards in asmadi as we know it are Deathrite Shaman, Abrupt Decay and Tarmogoyf. You can debate almost everything else to some degree.

[boxian]

Has anyone tested with Oath of Nissa? I put together a list recently and tried it out and it seemed effective but I haven't been paying much attention lately and this thread is on the 3rd page so it doesn't seem to have a ton of activity either likely due to being worse in the meta than before. I don't know how many reasonable decks there are so it might not solve a problem that exists.

I will say that Oath generally smoothed things out and was pretty nice for getting rid of some dead draws and getting what you need. I wish that it grabbed enchantments as well, but I've found that putting the cards you don't pick on the bottom of the library is generally an upside.

For the SB, I would slant it heavily towards beating combo as I think that's the primary weakness here (without having gone to a proper tournament lately):

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Oath of Nissa
1 Sylvan Library
2 Punishing Fire
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Domri Rade
3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Life from the Loam
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire

[btm10]

This deck is fine in the meta, but I don't see what Oath of Nissa gives it that Sylvan Library or Painful Truths doesn't do better.

[tescrin]

This deck is fine in the meta, but I don't see what Oath of Nissa gives it that Sylvan Library or Painful Truths doesn't do better.

I think it sounds OK next to Goyf (See two? Get an enchant in the yard :D)
It also adds T1 plays, which is good.

It's just a cantrip, but it may just be good enough to help green decks figure themselves out a bit.

[boxian]

This deck is fine in the meta, but I don't see what Oath of Nissa gives it that Sylvan Library or Painful Truths doesn't do better.

I would say it does a few things:

a) it is cheap and I often find that Jund is a mana hungry deck. This places it ahead of Painful Truths in my current estimation for which to max out on first.
b) it allows for easier casting of Liliana of the Veil (groves are less awkward in some hands). This is fairly marginal
c) it allows for filtering and selection and much like other cantrips, it reads as air but again,like other cantrips, it increases the velocity of the deck playing it
d) the second copy does generally grow the Goyf

I disagree that Jund is fine in the meta or i would expect it to show up more often in top8s and have a more active thread by virtue of its success. That said, I think it has all the tools but lacks the consistency and velocity of U decks. I think their protections are roughly equivalent due to discard. So I think it can be the competitor it's remembered as and I'm curious if this is the piece or not.

Painful truths is sweet though

[iGrok]

Yeah, it might be "just a cantrip", but if you use that argument, you can never complain about the blue shell again. Cantrips seem to be ok cards.

Another thing about Oath is that it lets you cut land, which keeps you from flooding out as often. I've heard Boxian refer to Jund as a Bag of Hammers, and everyone else is a nail - the only cards that didn't really apply pressure where lands, so going down on those without losing anything seems great. You can also play a more green-hungry manabase, or even play a taiga over a bayou for better PFire action and not feel too bad since Oath lets you cast Lily off of taiga+grove. Digging also lets you make the PFire package smaller, freeing up more slots.

Try this: cut a grove, a fires, a bayou, and a hymn. Add 4 oaths, try it out, you know, just to see how it feels.

[anakyn]

Honestly, I find Oath of Nissa to be pretty garbage in a Jund shell.

First of all (and most important): from what I understand of the card, if you don't find any creature/land/planeswalker in the first 3 cards of your library (let's say you only find instant/sorceries, which could happen fairly often), this card is straight card disadvantage.
Secondly, you have to reveal the card you wanna keep, giving information to the opponent.

I would never play a card like that in Jund (and probably in any Legacy deck).

[iamajellydonut]

(let's say you only find instant/sorceries, which could happen fairly often)

I'm not for or against Oath of Nissa in Legacy or more specifically in Jund (moreover because I just don't care because I won't have an excuse to ever personally play it), but the above justification against is false.

I've been rolling it in a Modern deck that plays fewer lands/creatures/walkers, and so far I have completely wiffed a whopping two times.

Also, if "revealing information" were a relevant factor, Jund would have stopped playing Dark Confidant long ago.

[iGrok]

I'm not for or against Oath of Nissa in Legacy or more specifically in Jund (moreover because I just don't care because I won't have an excuse to ever personally play it), but the above justification against is false.

I've been rolling it in a Modern deck that plays fewer lands/creatures/walkers, and so far I have completely wiffed a whopping two times.

Also, if "revealing information" were a relevant factor, Jund would have stopped playing Dark Confidant long ago.

Agreed. That's like saying "why play delver, what if you whiff? Plus you have to tell your opponent you free a bolt!"

[iamajellydonut]

In fairness I would like to add to what I said above that even though it's almost nigh impossible to wiff, your selection isn't always the greatest. Like when you make it to turn seven and flip over three instants/sorceries and a Bayou. Still value, but not always the value you're looking for. Not like a Ponder where you can actually choose Punishing Fire or shuffle complete crap away or stack for a BBE.

[anakyn]

That's like saying "why play delver, what if you whiff? Plus you have to tell your opponent you free a bolt!

No, it's not like saying that.

Even if Delver doesn't flip immediately, it's not card disadvantage and it will flip on the next turn or 2.
And the "free a bolt" argument is simply nonsense.



I'm not for or against Oath of Nissa in Legacy or more specifically in Jund (moreover because I just don't care because I won't have an excuse to ever personally play it), but the above justification against is false.

I've been rolling it in a Modern deck that plays fewer lands/creatures/walkers, and so far I have completely wiffed a whopping two times.

How many times you see 3 removal/discard with your Sylvan Library? It happens to me pretty often.
With Oath of Nissa --> card disadvantage.

Even if it happens 1/10 of the time, still the effect isn't worth the risk at all. You can't keep more than 1 of the 3 cards, you can't shuffle. Far worse than Ponder, even Preordain is better than this.

Maybe Modern material, but I don't know since I don't play that format. But please let's not discuss this card in Legacy :wink:

[AngryTroll]

I have a question re: nedleed's list,


4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Granger Guildmage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Tombstalker

3 Lightning Bolt
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Painful Truths

1 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless

1 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland

-----Sideboard-----
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Dread of Night
1 Null Rod
1 Choke
1 Engineered Plague
1 Obstinate Baloth
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip

All of the Lilianas and Kolaghan's Commands make me want to consider Bloodbraid Elf for this list. It's obviously bad with the two Painful Truths and the Green Sun's Zenith, but that's only three cards. I guess it'd be Painful Truths + Huntmaster versus something + Bloodbraid Elf.

Has anyone tried Meren of Clan Nel Toth in Jund? It's been reasonable in the Jund / Nic Fit list I've been playing locally. Sometimes I wish it were a Huntmaster, but at other times it runs away with the game. It has been awkward at times to have my curve-topper vulnerable to both Abrupt Decay and Lightning Bolt; the singleton Tombstalker dodges that problem in this list, but the Huntmasters and Garruk Relentless do not.

Finally, is Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet worth considering? I saw some discussion of running it as a singleton in Modern Jund. I think I'd rather start with a single Meren, as it's fetchable with Green Sun's Zenith, but it caught my eye as possible, at least.

[Ricardio]

I have a question re: nedleed's list,



All of the Lilianas and Kolaghan's Commands make me want to consider Bloodbraid Elf for this list. It's obviously bad with the two Painful Truths and the Green Sun's Zenith, but that's only three cards. I guess it'd be Painful Truths + Huntmaster versus something + Bloodbraid Elf.

Has anyone tried Meren of Clan Nel Toth in Jund? It's been reasonable in the Jund / Nic Fit list I've been playing locally. Sometimes I wish it were a Huntmaster, but at other times it runs away with the game. It has been awkward at times to have my curve-topper vulnerable to both Abrupt Decay and Lightning Bolt; the singleton Tombstalker dodges that problem in this list, but the Huntmasters and Garruk Relentless do not.

Finally, is Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet worth considering? I saw some discussion of running it as a singleton in Modern Jund. I think I'd rather start with a single Meren, as it's fetchable with Green Sun's Zenith, but it caught my eye as possible, at least.

Kalitas has been absolutely insane for me in modern, so much so its a 2 of. Against creatures decks, its an absolute house. The lifelink is very relevant although I think its a flavor fail to not make a legendary vampire flying.

[Anarky87]

Kalitas sounds pretty interesting. I might shave my BBE's down to 2 and run 1 of him to try it out. The lifelink will be very welcomed in some matches.

[Anarky87]

Ran Jund again yesterday at a tournament. There were about 22-24 people. Made top 8, but lost again in the quarters. Played against:

Death and Taxes: 1-2
Bant Miracles: 2-0
Dredge: 2-1
Death and Taxes: 2-0
Miracles: ID

Top 8
4c Delver: 1-2

I misplayed in the first game in round 1 against DnT by not thinking about him cheating SoFI into play instead of casting it, so I took 12 from an equipped Mirran Crusader when I didn't have to.

In the top 8 I just had mediocre draws game 1 while he had gas. Game 2 I stalemated the board with Goyf, but I had DRS and he was low on health so he slowly died. Game 3 my hands were pretty awful: my 7 had no land, my 6 had Forest, Grove, Decay x2, and Bob (I almost kept this, thinking that if my scry showed a black producing land or fetch, I'd be in business, but I didn't want to risk also not being able to play anything, so I mulled), my 5 was Wasteland x2, Badlands, Bolt, Liliana. Scry revealed another Badlands, so I rolled with it. But in the end his 6 was better. Seemed like it had Underground Sea, DRS x2, Delver, Daze, Ponder?

Aside from my misplays and maybe questionable mulligan, the deck felt pretty good. I'm gonna play it again next weekend at another event (In spite of my friends telling me to just play Shardless and get on the blue success train like everyone else. :tongue:)

[Hmmm_Really?]

Ran Jund against yesterday at a tournament.

@Anarky87 what was your list?

[Anarky87]

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library
4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth


-Sideboard-

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Choke
1 Slaughter Games
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Trinisphere

I'll be playing it tomorrow at an IQ, but I might make some changes to the md/sb. I'd like to try to find space for a Terimnate in the main, as well a 2nd Charm in the sideboard.

[Anarky87]

Ok, have a tournament tomorrow and I'm tweaking my board some. This is my current board:

2 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Choke
1 Slaughter Games
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Trinisphere

My proposed SB would be to trim the Grip and Choke to add an Ooze and the 2nd Charm. The Ooze as an extra hedge against Dredge and the Charm as another answer to DnT, Pyromancer/Elementals, and Elves.

1 Pithing Needle
2 Duress
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Trinisphere
1 Slaughter Games

[Anarky87]

Made top 8 again, but lost in the quarterfinals, lol. One of these times I'll break through. 16-18 people, 5 rounds, played against:

Sneak & Show: 2-0
Miracles: 2-1
UWr Stoneblade: 1-2
Death and Taxes: 2-0
4c Deathblade: 1-2

Top 8
Loam Pox: 1-2

The stoneblade match was pretty close, as was the Deathblade and Pox. Probably need to tighten my play up somewhere.

[Hmmm_Really?]

The stoneblade match was pretty close, as was the Deathblade and Pox. Probably need to tighten my play up somewhere.

Would you change anything in the deck to fix those match-ups?

[Anarky87]

Would you change anything in the deck to fix those match-ups?

I cut Choke for this event, but I might try to find a way to squeeze it back in the board. I think it would have helped at least some against decks that are about casting and bouncing Batterskulls. Against Pox, I think he just had better hands in games 2 and 3. For instance in game 2 I had 2x Goyfs at 6/7 that were positioned to kill him in 2 turns. He was able to find 2x Smallpox back-to-back, as well as the third Smallpox to answer my BBE. And that left me at 1 land to his 1 Forest, 1 Factory that dealt the last 9 damage. I'm sure I should have possibly mulliganed somewhere in there. So could be my error, too.

[alohazendo]

Hi, I've played Jund off and on for a couple of years, and I'm wondering, How dumb am I for wanting to try the following list:

3x Bloodbraid Elf
2x Young Pyromancer
4x Dark Confidant
4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Tarmogoyf

2x Lightning Bolt
3x Punishing Fire
2x Cabal Therapy
3x Thoughtseize
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Abrupt Decay
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Life From The Loam

3x Liliana Of The Veil

2x Sylvan Library

3x Wasteland
4x Grove Of The Burnwillows
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Badlands
2x Bayou
2x Swamp
1x Forest

SIDEBOARD

1x Null Rod
2x Pyroblast
2x Toxic Deluge
1x Pithing Needle
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Cabal Therapy
1x Thoughtseize
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Krosan Grip
2x Ensnaring Bridge

Feel free to be brutal.

[Seraphix]

Hi, I've played Jund off and on for a couple of years, and I'm wondering, How dumb am I for wanting to try the following list:

LIST

Feel free to be brutal.

Looks sweet tbh. I'd love to see some kind of Jund deck with Pyroman. It seems like good value with access to stuff like Loam, Punishing Fire, and Cabal Therapy. I also think Kolaghan's Command would be great in a Jund Pyro deck.

Is it worth cutting Tarmogoyf though? I don't know, but caring less about graveyards and being able to go wide are certainly real things.

[alohazendo]

Looks sweet tbh. I'd love to see some kind of Jund deck with Pyroman. It seems like good value with access to stuff like Loam, Punishing Fire, and Cabal Therapy. I also think Kolaghan's Command would be great in a Jund Pyro deck.

Is it worth cutting Tarmogoyf though? I don't know, but caring less about graveyards and being able to go wide are certainly real things.

It's a tough call, but there's a lot of white going around, and my Goyfs have been turned into sheep a few more times than I can stand.
I might just try it in our local tournament and see how it goes.

[alohazendo]

I've made more changes to the list above. Now am I crazy?

[alohazendo]

OK, so I came in second in a 24 person tournament today. I chickened out and did not try the above deck list. Instead, I went with the following:

3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmagoyf

4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
1 Life from the Loam
2 Punishing Fire
2 Lightning Bolt

2 Sylvan Library

4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
2 Badlands
4 Wasteland
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Swamp
1 Forest

SB:

3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pyroblast
1 Krosan Grip
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Ensnaring Bridge

1st Round: vs. Mono-red Prison 2-1 (the extra swamp paid off)
2nd Round: vs. Esper Deathblade 0-2
3rd Round: vs. Infect 2-1
4th Round: vs. Omniscience 2-1 (don't ask me, I'm still confused)
5th Round: vs. Burn 1-2 (I always lose to Burn)

I barely made 8th for the top 8.

1st Round: vs. Grixis Burn 2-1 (top seed got an unlucky match up)
2nd Round: vs. Esper Deathblade 2-0 (same guy as before, this math seems to come down to the luck of the draw)
Final: Ack, Burn again! 0-2 pffft. Too much Burn!

Anyways, Jund is still soo good. It's amazing that it's not played more. I was at 5-0 in the last 1k I played (November, I think) then, I hit burn twice in a row, which kept me out of the top 8.

[Whit3boy316]

OK, so I came in second in a 24 person tournament today. I chickened out and did not try the above deck list. Instead, I went with the following:

3x Bloodbraid Elf
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmagoyf

4x Abrupt Decay
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Thoughtseize
1x Life from the Loam
2x Punishing Fire
2x Lightning Bolt

2x Sylvan Library

4x Liliana of the Veil

4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Bayou
2x Badlands
4x Wasteland
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
2x Swamp
1x Forest

SB:

3x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Pithing Needle
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Pyroblast
1x Krosan Grip
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Ensnaring Bridge

1st Round: vs. Mono-red Prison 2-1 (the extra swamp paid off)
2nd Round: vs. Esper Deathblade 0-2
3rd Round: vs. Infect 2-1
4th Round: vs. Omniscience 2-1 (don't ask me, I'm still confused)
5th Round: vs. Burn 1-2 (I always lose to Burn)

I barely made 8th for the top 8.

1st Round: vs. Grixis Burn 2-1 (top seed got an unlucky match up)
2nd Round: vs. Esper Deathblade 2-0 (same guy as before, this math seems to come down to the luck of the draw)
Final: Ack, Burn again! 0-2 pffft. Too much Burn!

Anyways, Jund is still soo good. It's amazing that it's not played more. I was at 5-0 in the last 1k I played (November, I think) then, I hit burn twice in a row, which kept me out of the top 8.

How does jund do against combo decks? (High tide, storm, sneak and show)

I currently play shardless and may be looking for a change. I have been playing jund in modern for a while now and have always loved it

[alohazendo]

How does jund do against combo decks? (High tide, storm, sneak and show)

I currently play shardless and may be looking for a change. I have been playing jund in modern for a while now and have always loved it

That is its weakest spot. Combo is by no means unwinable. If I had to guesstimate, from my experience only, I'm about 45-55 against storm, 40-60 against Show and Tell decks, and worse against Burn. I haven't seen High Tide in three or four years, but it takes longer to go off, and the longer something takes to go off, the more likely Jund is to take over.

[sdematt]

The Sean O'Brien Special A.K.A. - Shaved Ape Jund - AKA Rule of 3 - AKA Painful 3's

2 Tombstalker
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Avalanche Riders
4 Deathrite Shaman


3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach

3 Painful Truths
2 Sylvan Library
1 Life from the Loam

3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Koth of the Hammer

3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Lightning Bolt


1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Wasteland


//////////

1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
2 Krosan Grip
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Sudden Demise
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Boil
1 Ruination
2 Red Elemental Blast
+2 Open

[Seraphix]

How does jund do against combo decks? (High tide, storm, sneak and show)

I currently play shardless and may be looking for a change. I have been playing jund in modern for a while now and have always loved it

You'd rather not be fighting combo every round with Jund, but at the same time I think its weakness to combo is overstated. You can build your sideboard with tools to beat almost every combo deck.

I've never played Modern Jund, but if you have I'm sure you would enjoy the fully-powered version. Deathrite Shaman, Punishing Fire, Hymn, Sylvan Library, and Bloodbraid Elf add SOOOO much to the deck. I can't imagine playing Jund without access to those cards, hence why I've never played it in Modern.


The Sean O'Brien Special A.K.A. - Shaved Ape Jund - AKA Rule of 3 - AKA Painful 3's

List



So is Shaved Ox Asmadi old and busted now?

[iamajellydonut]

You'd rather not be fighting combo every round with Jund, but at the same time I think its weakness to combo is overstated. You can build your sideboard with tools to beat almost every combo deck.

Agreed.

Easily the hardest part of beating combo is having hate AND creatures in the same game. Unlike Maverick's hatebear cartel, Thoughtseize doesn't attack for two damage each turn. Though Hymn to Tourach is still a beast that can usually just end the game if you have any creature to pair with it.

That being said, Scab-Clan Berserker has proven to be pretty funny.

[Asthereal]

That being said, Scab-Clan Berserker has proven to be pretty funny.
Yep, that's my weapon of choice against combo right now.
The Berserker can also have its merits against Miracles.

About the Sean O'Brien special: Avalanche Riders. Wow, haven't seen those in a while! :cool:
Did the list make a good performance already?

[sdematt]

Yep, that's my weapon of choice against combo right now.
The Berserker can also have its merits against Miracles.

About the Sean O'Brien special: Avalanche Riders. Wow, haven't seen those in a while! :cool:
Did the list make a good performance already?

Not yet, still trying it.

But, even though Riders is an overcosted Stone Rain, it still pressures Jace, and blowing up basic lands so you can pressure with Wastelands and Loam isn't terrible. Echo also fuels the yard for Tombstalker/DRS/Scooze. It's not as good as BBE, but again, test of theory to see if running bigger threats and Truths is better than the old version.

Plus, Eldrazi.

[Asthereal]

Not yet, still trying it.

But, even though Riders is an overcosted Stone Rain, it still pressures Jace, and blowing up basic lands so you can pressure with Wastelands and Loam isn't terrible. Echo also fuels the yard for Tombstalker/DRS/Scooze. It's not as good as BBE, but again, test of theory to see if running bigger threats and Truths is better than the old version.

Plus, Eldrazi.
Can this list afford to splash white for Vindicate?
Bloodbraid Elf into Vindicate seems pretty sick.
White also helps solve our bad relationship with combo.

Seems quite greedy though... :rolleyes:

[tescrin]

Can this list afford to splash white for Vindicate?
Bloodbraid Elf into Vindicate seems pretty sick.
White also helps solve our bad relationship with combo.

Seems quite greedy though... :rolleyes:

I was doing 4-color with my white cards being Plow and Sideboard cards. It's neat against midrange decks and helps against combo (as Plow is helpful for things like Reanimator as well) but you will forfeit against D&T almost right out. Even games where I was decidedly ahead, the garbage manabase of 4-colors, no blue, uncentered around a color, etc.. it's just too susceptible to Ports next to wastes. Given that D&T and Lands are DTB at the moment (or at least, I think they still are) it's your call.

As someone who tried it, I enjoyed Oath of Nissa to help find lands and gain consistency; but the manabase is still difficult against decks that are there to capitalize on it against you.

[iamajellydonut]

Heyo, I'm cross-posting this to the main and relevant non-blue decks. This coming Saturday I'm going to be running a brew that I'm not too familiar with and I'm under the firm impression that at some point during the night I'll have to face Eldrazi as it's gotten rather popular. I don't believe it's a particularly poor match-up, but I do believe that since it's one I'm going to have to face that I should be ready for it. Trouble is, I can't think of any fucking hate.

So, what I'm asking for is dedicated Eldrazi hate. Any non-blue and preferably without :w::w: in the mana cost, but it has to be game ending and it has to impact the board. I'm already rocking Blood Moon with some decent acceleration, but it doesn't stop an already active board and it sucks in multiples.

[sampi]

Heyo, I'm cross-posting this to the main and relevant non-blue decks. This coming Saturday I'm going to be running a brew that I'm not too familiar with and I'm under the firm impression that at some point during the night I'll have to face Eldrazi as it's gotten rather popular. I don't believe it's a particularly poor match-up, but I do believe that since it's one I'm going to have to face that I should be ready for it. Trouble is, I can't think of any fucking hate.

So, what I'm asking for is dedicated Eldrazi hate. Any non-blue and preferably without :w::w: in the mana cost, but it has to be game ending and it has to impact the board. I'm already rocking Blood Moon with some decent acceleration, but it doesn't stop an already active board and it sucks in multiples.

Ghostly Prison is decent as a lot of their lands don't tap for mana

[alohazendo]

They have a really hard time dealing with Ensnaring Bridge, and it fits nicely into any color combination.

[ironclad8690]

Ensnaring Bridge +1

[Hmmm_Really?]

Glissa, the Traitor
Hornet Nest

[iamajellydonut]

Hornet Nest

omg the tech.

I'm being serious when I say that this is probably one of the best suggestions so far. Wish it was a bit more robust tho. Gets trampled over and hit by all their removal including Warping Wail.

[Asthereal]

Heyo, I'm cross-posting this to the main and relevant non-blue decks. This coming Saturday I'm going to be running a brew that I'm not too familiar with and I'm under the firm impression that at some point during the night I'll have to face Eldrazi as it's gotten rather popular. I don't believe it's a particularly poor match-up, but I do believe that since it's one I'm going to have to face that I should be ready for it. Trouble is, I can't think of any fucking hate.

So, what I'm asking for is dedicated Eldrazi hate. Any non-blue and preferably without :w::w: in the mana cost, but it has to be game ending and it has to impact the board. I'm already rocking Blood Moon with some decent acceleration, but it doesn't stop an already active board and it sucks in multiples.
This depends a lot on what you play yourself. Do you have access to lots of mana? There are a couple of expensive planeswalkers that are strong against Eldrazi and still have solid applications elsewhere, like Ob Nixilis Reignited and Vraska the Unseen.

Other than that, I'd +1 the Ensnaring Bridge. They hate that thing.

[Seraphix]

I've played 23 lands in this deck forever. But lately I've come to realize that I absolutely lose more games due to mana screw than mana flood, so I'm going to try cutting something for a 24th land.

A possible alternative would be to add a maindeck copy of Loam in lieu of a 24th land. I'm all about cutting lands for Ponders...this is sort of the same thing right?

Ironically, the card getting cut is probably the 4th Liliana, despite the fact that I have told people I would play 5 Lilianas if I could.

Thoughts?

[iamajellydonut]

Ironically, the card getting cut is probably the 4th Liliana, despite the fact that I have told people I would play 5 Lilianas if I could.

Thoughts?

As bad as this is going to sound, when I ran my Jund variant for a few weeks again, I had cut the fourth Liliana for another Kolaghan's Command. :(

Granted I was cutting a Liliana for a relatable card, but I think that stands as testament to the fact that you don't need the fourth Liliana.

That being said, I wouldn't go for the twenty-fourth land. 100% of other decks that run twenty-three lands function just fine, and Jund has a sickeningly low curve (aside from Bloodbraid Elf). Is it "screw" problems or is it just your deck getting bitchy with Grove of the Burnwillows and basic land distribution?

[sdematt]

I'm running 21 and a Loam, which is probably on the dicey side, but whatevs. Fuckin' Avalanche Riders, get got.

[Seraphix]

As bad as this is going to sound, when I ran my Jund variant for a few weeks again, I had cut the fourth Liliana for another Kolaghan's Command. :(

Granted I was cutting a Liliana for a relatable card, but I think that stands as testament to the fact that you don't need the fourth Liliana.

That being said, I wouldn't go for the twenty-fourth land. 100% of other decks that run twenty-three lands function just fine, and Jund has a sickeningly low curve (aside from Bloodbraid Elf). Is it "screw" problems or is it just your deck getting bitchy with Grove of the Burnwillows and basic land distribution?

Groves and basic Forest continue to be shitty mana sources, but I think the problem lies more with total land count. So many 2 land hands get blown up by my Deathrite/Bobby dying or a random wasteland and I don't draw more lands quickly enough to recover. I want to be hitting 4 mana reasonably early every game (not just for BBE but also for multiple spells a turn). Our cards are so good that you just want to be able to cast them.

[alohazendo]

As bad as this is going to sound, when I ran my Jund variant for a few weeks again, I had cut the fourth Liliana for another Kolaghan's Command. :(

Granted I was cutting a Liliana for a relatable card, but I think that stands as testament to the fact that you don't need the fourth Liliana.

That being said, I wouldn't go for the twenty-fourth land. 100% of other decks that run twenty-three lands function just fine, and Jund has a sickeningly low curve (aside from Bloodbraid Elf). Is it "screw" problems or is it just your deck getting bitchy with Grove of the Burnwillows and basic land distribution?

I went down to two P-Fire and two Bolt to make room for Loam and a second Sylvan. I run 23 lands. It has worked well for me. Grove is a sad sad land, and this configuration let me go down to three. Removal.deck hasn't put me in a position, yet, where I'm lamented the slight dearth in burn. I usually want it for reach at the end, and Sylvan means I will have seen it by then.

[The Crow's Eye]

This list has been working nicely for me. My battle-ax has been a tremendous asset in closing out games.

4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Bloodbraid Elf
2x Thundermaw Hellkite

3x Liliana of the Veil

3x Lightning Bolt
3x Thoughtseize
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Punishing Fire
3x Hymn to Tourach
1x Sylvan Library
1x Life from the Loam
1x Kolaghan's Command

4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Bayou
2x Badlands
1x Taiga
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Mountain
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
4x Wasteland


Not posting my SB, its my secret. This has gotten solid results versus Sultai Delver, Shardless Sultai, Esper Stoneblade/Deathblade, Elves, Goblins, and your odd Chalice deck. Nic Fit is still a bit of a struggle, though Hellkite gives you some muscle in that MU that's been helpful where I'd usually fold to their threats. The Taigas are there to get max benefits from P-Fire. I could add more basics if you think it would be better.

More basics make it so I can Blood Moon in safety, too.

[Vandalize]

This list has been working nicely for me. My battle-ax has been a tremendous asset in closing out games.

4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Bloodbraid Elf
2x Thundermaw Hellkite

3x Liliana of the Veil

3x Lightning Bolt
3x Thoughtseize
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Punishing Fire
3x Hymn to Tourach
1x Sylvan Library
1x Life from the Loam
1x Kolaghan's Command

4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Bayou
2x Badlands
1x Taiga
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Mountain
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
4x Wasteland


Not posting my SB, its my secret. This has gotten solid results versus Sultai Delver, Shardless Sultai, Esper Stoneblade/Deathblade, Elves, Goblins, and your odd Chalice deck. Nic Fit is still a bit of a struggle, though Hellkite gives you some muscle in that MU that's been helpful where I'd usually fold to their threats. The Taigas are there to get max benefits from P-Fire. I could add more basics if you think it would be better.

More basics make it so I can Blood Moon in safety, too.

Thundermaw Hellkite seems great. But flipping it with Bob hurts A LOT. Has that ever happened?

[The Crow's Eye]

Rarely. Sylvan Library and DRS help when it does happen though. The discard spells usually ensure that the dragon sticks, and when its flipped I can usually plug up the game by dropping it ASAP.

[alohazendo]

Rarely. Sylvan Library and DRS help when it does happen though. The discard spells usually ensure that the dragon sticks, and when its flipped I can usually plug up the game by dropping it ASAP.

I have to admit, in all my struggles with the awkwardness of this deck, I hadn't considered upping the curve or doubling down on red. A 5/5 hasty flier that can't be blocked on it's first swing is pretty friggin' awesome, though. I don't know that I'm ready to try it, but I'd love to see more tournament reports as your experimentation continues.

[The Crow's Eye]

Eh, I'm hardly the first to do this. You'll find a list or two on TC that uses the Ob Nixilis from the last Zendikar block. Its also 5cc, but may or may not draw you gas to get there while Hellkite sticks em on a turn 4 clock at worst.

[alohazendo]

I never could get behind the Ob Nixilis builds. I will be curious to see what happens with Hellkite.

[Manroe]

I think I'm taking this to GP Columbus. I feel like the deck is pretty well positioned right now.

That being said: If I wanted to skew my sideboard towards beating miracles and eldrazi, what would be the best way to handle it?
Last night I won my local legacy event with this board:

2 Choke
2 Extirpate
2 Null Rod
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pyroblast
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Golgari Charm


Side note - Got a funny free win vs storm with extirpate last night. He stacked his deck EoT with brainstorm, draws for turn plays rituals, etc, then plays probe and cracks L.E.D. I extirpated his brainstorm to make him shuffle and he drew a lotus petal xD. GG.

[Seraphix]

I think I'm taking this to GP Columbus. I feel like the deck is pretty well positioned right now.

That being said: If I wanted to skew my sideboard towards beating miracles and eldrazi, what would be the best way to handle it?
Last night I won my local legacy event with this board:

2 Choke
2 Extirpate
2 Null Rod
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pyroblast
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Golgari Charm


Side note - Got a funny free win vs storm with extirpate last night. He stacked his deck EoT with brainstorm, draws for turn plays rituals, etc, then plays probe and cracks L.E.D. I extirpated his brainstorm to make him shuffle and he drew a lotus petal xD. GG.

I haven't played against Leldrazi with this deck yet, but it seems like a rough time given the general inadequacy of a Bolt/Fire/Decay removal suite against them. If I was preparing for that deck I would at least have a Pulse and a D-Edict in the 75.

You don't really need to go "deep" in the board to beat Miracles IMO. Blasts, Null Rod, and Golgari Charm are cards I'd be playing anyway.

[The Crow's Eye]

Update on my list. Nic Fitters are coming out of the woodwork.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
4 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Thundermaw Hellkite

4 Lighting Bolt
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Terminate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Kolaghan's Command

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
2 Badlands
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Forest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Pyroblast
2 Extirpate
2 Null Rod
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Golgari Charm
2 Blood Moon
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Kolaghan's Command

[Manroe]

Update on my list. Nic Fitters are coming out of the woodwork.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
4 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Thundermaw Hellkite

4 Lighting Bolt
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Terminate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Kolaghan's Command

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
2 Badlands
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Forest
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Pyroblast
2 Extirpate
2 Null Rod
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Golgari Charm
2 Blood Moon
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Kolaghan's Command

Are you having any sustained success with the Moon strategy?

[razvan]

I tried a new version with Oath of Nissa, Nissa voice of Zendikar, and 1 Arlinn Kord.

Oath of Nissa is really good. Nissa VoZ is probably not. Never drew Arlinn Kord, but seems ok in theory.

[AngryTroll]

I've always been torn between the power of the Punishing Fire engine and the awful manabase associated with running four Groves. I've been playing an Un-Punishing Jund list for a while to enjoy the manabase. Here's where I am currently, after trying a variety of the non-traditional lists.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan's Command

2 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Wasteland

-----Sideboard-----
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Boil
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Xenagos, the Reveler


This version's manabase is great. The split of B/G/R casting costs in the maindeck is 32/17/9, which justifies the basic Forest, although it can be awkward. The average casting cost for Bob is 1.25.

The Kolagahan's Commands have been really excellent for me, enough that I'm running a second one over a fourth Liliana. Similarly the Sylvan Libraries are great by themselves and especially good with the Dark Confidants and Bloodbraids.

It's tough to narrow the sideboard down to just 15 cards. My local metagame includes Miracles, Eldrazi, lots of Elves, Grixis Delver, Death and Taxes, and Stoneblade. I want to try a Xenegos against Miracles-haste makes a big difference in the 2/2s.

[Manroe]

I've always been torn between the power of the Punishing Fire engine and the awful manabase associated with running four Groves. I've been playing an Un-Punishing Jund list for a while to enjoy the manabase. Here's where I am currently, after trying a variety of the non-traditional lists.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan's Command

2 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Wasteland

-----Sideboard-----
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Boil
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Xenagos, the Reveler


This version's manabase is great. The split of B/G/R casting costs in the maindeck is 32/17/9, which justifies the basic Forest, although it can be awkward. The average casting cost for Bob is 1.25.

The Kolagahan's Commands have been really excellent for me, enough that I'm running a second one over a fourth Liliana. Similarly the Sylvan Libraries are great by themselves and especially good with the Dark Confidants and Bloodbraids.

It's tough to narrow the sideboard down to just 15 cards. My local metagame includes Miracles, Eldrazi, lots of Elves, Grixis Delver, Death and Taxes, and Stoneblade. I want to try a Xenegos against Miracles-haste makes a big difference in the 2/2s.

I was thinking of what a no fires list would look like today and kind of thought maybe a white splash for lingering souls would be worth a try? What do you think?

[AngryTroll]

I hadn't considered Lingering Souls in Jund at all. My first thought is that it's awkward on both the manabase and the curve with Dark Confidant, but I've never tried it, and I can't recall ever seeing a Jund list with Souls.

[alohazendo]

I was thinking of what a no fires list would look like today and kind of thought maybe a white splash for lingering souls would be worth a try? What do you think?

I think Lingering would just undo all of the effort that was made towards unjanking the mana base when you removed the Groves. I also doubt that it would be terribly impactful in any deck without equipment. If it works, that's great, but I don't see it.

[Manroe]

I think Lingering would just undo all of the effort that was made towards unjanking the mana base when you removed the Groves. I also doubt that it would be terribly impactful in any deck without equipment. If it works, that's great, but I don't see it.

I could've sworn I have seen it done before but maybe that was modern? I could be wrong though.

[juzamjimjams]

I could've sworn I have seen it done before but maybe that was modern? I could be wrong though.

I could be wrong, but I think you're thinking of Ajundi. Modern Jund in the time of deathrite splashing souls + Ajani Vengeant.

[Ricardio]

But if you remove groves and add white, you can add sfm, souls, swords?

[sdematt]

But if you remove groves and add white, you can add sfm, souls, swords?

The whole point, folks. If youre splashing Souls, run my Junk list.

Otherwise, run Jund. I dont think Fires is bad at all. Im just not certain about BBE; but Confidant is great, although I do love Truths too.

[razvan]

Yea no sense in making it 4-color. They are 2 different decks like Matt said, and making a bastard of it will end up like Joffrey Baratheon. Annoying and not very good.

I am still trying to find a proper solution instead of BBE. It might just be the best solution anyway.

[Manroe]

Yea no sense in making it 4-color. They are 2 different decks like Matt said, and making a bastard of it will end up like Joffrey Baratheon. Annoying and not very good.

I am still trying to find a proper solution instead of BBE. It might just be the best solution anyway.

The only other real option is what, Huntmaster? Kalitas could have applications but at 4cc you really want something with an etb effect right?

[sdematt]

The only other real option is what, Huntmaster? Kalitas could have applications but at 4cc you really want something with an etb effect right?

Im trying Avalanche Riders...

[sampi]

Fulminator Mage ?

[sdematt]

Fulminator Mage ?

Haste and blowing up Basics is tech. Then bringing it back with Command is sweeet.

[Manroe]

So is there pretty much a consensus on what should be in the sideboard these days? I'm taking this to GP Columbus.

I'm going with this SB:

1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pyroblast
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Extirpate
1 Maelstrom Pulse


Would like to tune this more towards miracles and Eldrazi, if possible.

[Seraphix]

So is there pretty much a consensus on what should be in the sideboard these days? I'm taking this to GP Columbus.

I'm going with this SB:

1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pyroblast
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Extirpate
1 Maelstrom Pulse


Would like to tune this more towards miracles and Eldrazi, if possible.

For a large, open meta like a GP, I'd want to have some number of Duress in the board. It affords cheap interaction against all the random stuff that can show up in the first few rounds, and is a fine addition against most combo decks.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

The only other real option is what, Huntmaster? Kalitas could have applications but at 4cc you really want something with an etb effect right?


I havent been liking BBE either as it is too unreliable...
Tasigur might be a decent replacement but not as a three of... Maybe 2 Huntmaster and 1 Tasigur instead...
Kalitas doesnt seem very good in legacy because there are less creatures in legacy than in Modern which reduces its effectiveness... Avalanche Riders seems too unimpactful to warrant an include as a 4drop.

[sdematt]

I've updated my list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Scooze
2 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Avalanche Riders
15

3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Kolaghan's Command
3 Punishing Fires
3 Painful Truths
1 Life from the Loam

2 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil
20

1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Wasteland
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
22
-----Sideboard-----
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Boil
1 From the Ashes
1 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Ensnaring Bridge/Command #2

Much more control, and with quite a bit of LD. Riders is nice at both pressuring Jace and their basic land manabase which you normally cannot touch.

Tombstalker can, at times, be hard to cast, but he he's your over the top threat like he was back in Team America. You play him late and go to town and fly over a locked ground. Angler is easier to cast, but getting caught up on the ground isn't ideal.

Board is a smattering to cover Eldrazi and Miracles. Need more testing against Eldrazi :/

[razvan]

Again, I don't know if BBE *can* be beaten for that slot.

Avalanche Riders is a good comparison since they cost the same and are both haste creatures (well, a colorless instead of green mana). So a comparison, and I put creature types in it in case we run Plague, or who the hell knows what effect happens randomly.

Riders (Human Nomad)
- Destroys Land

BBE (Elf Berserker)
- Can cascade into Bolt, Fire, Liliana, Hymn, Abrupt Decay, Library, Deathrite, Tarmogoyf, random other SB cards
- One extra power (relevant if Jace, or even Liliana)
- Sticks around due to no echo

So the effect is stone rain vs. all the other stuff. It's difficult to estimate the actual effect (removal can be amazing, a bolt to the face less so most of the time, or an abrupt decay with no targets). Stone Rain as an effect IS very good, but I think the cascade is slightly better. And given the other 2 things, I think BBE is just better.

[sampi]

The fact that avalanche riders doesn't really do anything vs a field with multiple deathrite's, explorations and other fast mana spells in play already (which is very common) and the fact that it is harder to interact with BBE makes it alot better IMO.

Here's what i'm currently working with.

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 Duress

Most of the list's I've seen are running 6 black duals with 4 groves but I like having the fetch-able g/r source. Also I'm greedy and like having 4 wastelands.

I'm probably going to cut the 4th lili for a painful truths but can't bring myself to take it out. Also the pulse will become K command.

Any initial thoughts or obvious mistakes in the list? Also the edicts are for eldrazi but haven't had a chance to play the MU yet.


Edit: Has anyone tried painters servant for eldrazi? Considering we already run p blasts in the board, might be a nice addition.

[sdematt]

Again, I don't know if BBE *can* be beaten for that slot.

Avalanche Riders is a good comparison since they cost the same and are both haste creatures (well, a colorless instead of green mana). So a comparison, and I put creature types in it in case we run Plague, or who the hell knows what effect happens randomly.

Riders (Human Nomad)
- Destroys Land

BBE (Elf Berserker)
- Can cascade into Bolt, Fire, Liliana, Hymn, Abrupt Decay, Library, Deathrite, Tarmogoyf, random other SB cards
- One extra power (relevant if Jace, or even Liliana)
- Sticks around due to no echo

So the effect is stone rain vs. all the other stuff. It's difficult to estimate the actual effect (removal can be amazing, a bolt to the face less so most of the time, or an abrupt decay with no targets). Stone Rain as an effect IS very good, but I think the cascade is slightly better. And given the other 2 things, I think BBE is just better.
If you run Bbe,you cannot run Truths. Thats the point :p

[AngryTroll]

I've updated my list:

...
2 Tombstalker
3 Avalanche Riders
...
1 Kolaghan's Command
3 Painful Truths
1 Life from the Loam
2 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil
...

...
Tombstalker can, at times, be hard to cast, but he he's your over the top threat like he was back in Team America. You play him late and go to town and fly over a locked ground. Angler is easier to cast, but getting caught up on the ground isn't ideal(trimmed for ease of reading)


I like the look of this list. A couple of things jump out at me (having played sdematt's Huntmaster build and currently playing a Fires-less Bloodbraid list):

I've found Tombstalker to be great at suddenly ending games. Jund (and Liliana in particular) encourages long, grindy games, and a topdecked Tombstalker is a massive threat. I dislike that every threat in this list besides the Avalanche Riders is turned off by a Rest in Peace, but there's not many good ways around that.

I'm a big fan of 2 Sylvan Library and 3 (or 4) Liliana. Everyone seems to agree on the Lilianas, but the I'd rank these two together as the best cards in the deck.

I go back and forth on Painful Truths. Sometimes it's backbreaking for an opponent and breaks the game open, but sometimes it feels pretty clunky. Three seems like a lot of 3-drop card drawing spells.

Finally, the four drop slot. The options seem to be Avalanche Riders, Bloodbraid Elf, Huntmaster of the Fells (or Arlinn Kord), and Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet. I ran Huntmasters for a long time, am currently running Bloodbraids, and am interested in the Avalanche Riders and Kalitas.

The combination of Avalanche Riders, 4 Wasteland, and the Life from the Loam certainly pushes the deck in a particular direction. I imagine you pick up points against Eldrazi this way.

People in this thread have directly compared Huntmaster and Bloodbraid by talking about the minimum and maximum value you get out of them. Huntmaster has a higher floor than Bloodbraid, and the ceiling is pretty high when it starts flipping back and forth. On the other hand, I don't often get to flip Huntmaster. Bloodbraid consistently falls somewhere in the middle of the Huntmaster's range.

Bloodbraid puts a few interesting constraints on the deck. In addition to excluding Painful Truths (and Green Sun's Zenith) BBE encourages adding some value three-drops to the deck like Kolaghan's Command or Maelstrom Pulse to go with the Liliana to maximize the value of the random card. Dark Confidant encourages streamlining the curve. I've never been thrilled to run Pyroclast in the board in the Bloodbraid lists because of the chance of bricking; in BBE lists, Choke is my go-to sideboard slot instead of Pyroblast. However, this means that after boarding the curve is even steeper for Bob. Sylvan Library is excellent with both.


How has the Riders Jund list been playing? What's working and what still has room for improvement? I really enjoy the discussion of the various Jund options (especially the outside-the-box ideas).

[sdematt]

I need more time to test as I have some exams this week. Feel free to test as well and see what you think.

The LD package does pick up more points against Eldrazi, for sure.

[defector]

I love Jund but hate Punishing Fire and I hate, hate, hate Blood Braid elf. I hate him when he does very little and I hate him the next turn no matter what he did the first turn. I just took 11th out of 51 at a local 1K with this list and I'll be playing it in the SCG Classic this Sunday, 6-25-2016 at the Dallas SCG. I'll give the list and a little report from the 1K.

Lands-23-
Wasteland X4
Bloodstained Mire X4
Verdant Catacombs X4
Badlands X3
Bayou X3
Taiga X1
Raging Ravine X1
Swamp X2
Forest X1

Red-4-
Lightning Bolt X4

Green-7-
Tarmogoyf X4
Garruk Relentless X2
Sylvan Library X1

Black-16-
Thoughtseize X4
Dark Confidant X4
Hymn to Tourach X4
Liliana of the Veil X3
Chains of Mephistopheles X1

Gold-10-
Deathrite Shaman X4
Abrupt Decay X4
Arlinn Kord X2

Sideboard-15-
Graffdiger's Cage X4
Engineered Plague X2
Red Elemental Blast X2
Blood Moon X2
Null Rod X1
Pithing Needle X1
Maelstrom Pulse X1
Krosan Grip X1
Chains of Mephistopheles X1


The mana base is rock solid, the man land is a nice nod to increase the threat density in the face that you no longer have to run the Punishing Fires combination. The Planeswalkers are solid in a miracles driven metagame. Arlinn Kord is better then you may think. Four 4 drops in a Bob deck sucks, Painful Truths may be better here, I just like the board presence and the ability of turning Bob sideways, but that may not be the best thing. I'm open to testing Truths in that slot, in fact I may test that this Saturday as a tune up to the SCG event. I've messed this deck up so much, why not a bit more?

Results from the 1K: Common Ground Games Dallas TX

Round 1: Food Chain
Win Game 1 and my opponent conceded game 2 after realizing he boarded incorrectly. I got most of these games on the back of Hymns and Abrupt Decays.

Round 2: Doomsday
Game 1: Get destroyed
Game 2: DRS and some timely discard got me to it.
Game 3: I get super lucky, the turn before I get killed I top deck a Chains which locks the game up long enough for me to get there.

Round 3: Reanimator:
Game 1: My opponent gets a game loss due to misregistered list.
Game 2: Blows me out with a turn one Sire of Insanity
Game 2: I start with land DRS, and he gets the turn one Sire, but I am able to get to a Goyf, trade and then take the game over

Round 4: Lands
Game 1: Lose to Marit Lage
Game 2: Get there through early DRS, wasteland and a goyf
Game 3: Sphere of Resistance 1 and 2 get ahead of me, board is jammed up and he gets to Marit Lage and kills me

Round 5: Merfolk
Game 1: Goys and Arlinn
Game 2: Goyfs and Arlinn

Round 6: Shardless BUG
Game 1: Lose to flooding out while he gets me with a Tar Pit, stabilize and die to Jace ultimate
Game 2: Win with active Lilli
Game 3: Lose after we both waste each other out, I flood and he needles Lilli and gets to a goyf and gets me.

I was 7th and he was 8th in Round six. it sucks to go x-1 and not be able to draw in, but that's life. Losing the win and in, my opponent opens the top 8 at number 1 and I get 11th out of 51 or so.

Great event and well run, hats off to Common Ground.
The deck performed pretty well in general. Very frustrating to lose a win and in against a favored match up, but stealing on Doomsday was pretty sick. The deck does well in the mid range, and miracles, delver decks. It gets hosed by lands and fast combo, especially anything resilient to hand disruption. I just love Jund and hate Miracles, so I'll keep grinding on this and see where it takes me. Painful Truths over Bob is next up, and I'll get some kind of report out for the SCG unless I rage quit:)

cheers
defector

[razvan]

If you run Bbe,you cannot run Truths. Thats the point :p
You know you have to explain things slowly... VEEERY slowly... to me :P

I never considered (for some reason) Painful Truths. Gotta think on this one.

And yay, 100 pages. Exciting :)

[sdematt]

You know you have to explain things slowly... VEEERY slowly... to me :P

I never considered (for some reason) Painful Truths. Gotta think on this one.

And yay, 100 pages. Exciting :)

Haha :P

Dark Confidant is a great card, but he's fragile as all hell. My theory was - why not try Truths to draw those cards immediately and pull ahead, especially against Miracles? You ideally either push some hand disruption through and then play Truths, or get your hand disruption countered, then refill with Truths and keep going. The problem I found with Bob was that he was dying. I also have wondered for a long, long time if BBE is the best we can do. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but it's a necessary cut with Truths.

A more solid midrange backbone of creatures to support Goyf is ideal in this midrange hell. Why? Scooze does overtime against other Goyf decks, and fights Snapcasters, and Tombstalker is so over the top. BBE is fine, and gets you a card, but I'm trying it out. The rest of the core is similar, but again, I don't think playing a control game is bad. Basically being red Shardless isn't bad. Fires is very good at beating Walkers and smaller decks, and you have enough sweepers to handle DnT and such. LD fights Eldrazi, and hopefully Fires and enough card draw backed with walkers might be enough to actually beat Miracles consistently enough.

-Matt

[AngryTroll]

I love Jund but hate Punishing Fire and I hate, hate, hate Blood Braid elf. I hate him when he does very little and I hate him the next turn no matter what he did the first turn.
...
The mana base is rock solid, the man land is a nice nod to increase the threat density in the face that you no longer have to run the Punishing Fires combination. The Planeswalkers are solid in a miracles driven metagame. Arlinn Kord is better then you may think. Four 4 drops in a Bob deck sucks, Painful Truths may be better here, I just like the board presence and the ability of turning Bob sideways, but that may not be the best thing. I'm open to testing Truths in that slot, in fact I may test that this Saturday as a tune up to the SCG event. I've messed this deck up so much, why not a bit more?
...

I like this list as well. I find myself boarding in Garruk Relentless in every non-combo matchup. Assembling a board of (two or more of) Sylvan Library, Liliana, and Garruk is nearly impossible for any fair deck to beat.

You mentioned Arlinn Kord as being pretty good; how often was she better than a Huntmaster?

Did you ever activate the Raging Ravine? I've been watching Modern Jund videos to familiarize myself with the Modern version of the deck, and it seems to do a lot of work in that format. On the other hand, without Wasteland and Daze in the format, it seems like Modern games end up with twice as many lands in play as Legacy games.

I don't know about the proper mixture of Sylvan Library, Dark Confidant, and Painful Truths. I know I'd always want at least two Libraries in the maindeck. Obviously Bob and Library have a lot of synergy and Bob and Truths are anti-synergystic. Libraries and Bobs or Libraries and Painful Truths?

[defector]

The Arlin vs Huntmaster question is pretty good. I always found Huntmaster underwhelming, but maybe I'm wrong about him. Arlinn is better than you'd think, now maybe 2 Huntmaster, 1 Arlinn, 1 Garruk isn't bad either, I feel like I want the right mix of four costs. Maybe Eldritch Moon will give us an amazing 3 or 4 CMC win con in Jund colors. I don't use Painful Truths currently because I have Chains main and Chains in the side, but the whole Bob dying too much is a serious problem. I have top locked Miracles players with Chains and made their Terminus useless as I smack them with Raging Ravine. If Raging was a 3 CMC activate I would snap include it in non Grove lists, as it is, its marginally fringe, but not terrible. It's way better in Modern, if it was a 3 cmc activation in modern it would probably be banned. I completely agree with the analogy about Red Shardless, we are going after a lot of the same space. I've been looking hard at Modern versions and Shardless decks to try and get a good sense of a Non BBE Jund list. I want us to be able to support Blood Moon for lands and then accept that fast GY gets us. Yay for page 100:) Lets keep our fingers crossed for Eldritch Moon and keep grinding:)

[Claymore]

You could try Tireless Tracker in place of Bob. Lands uses it to good effect, if you wait till turn 4 you can drop the Tracker and get 1 to 2 clues from the Landfall ability. It plays okay with Chains because you can pop clues on their turn.

[AngryTroll]

You could try Tireless Tracker in place of Bob. Lands uses it to good effect, if you wait till turn 4 you can drop the Tracker and get 1 to 2 clues from the Landfall ability. It plays okay with Chains because you can pop clues on their turn.

Correct me if I am wrong, but based on Chains' oracle text, the clues just say "2: Discard a card, draw a card" no matter when you sacrifice them.

[Claymore]

No, I think you're right. Not sure what I was thinking of then...must have forgotten the "except the first draw in your draw step" part of the card.

[Scott]

A planeswalker heavy Jund list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=104494) with 2 Arlinn Kord and 2 Garruk Relentless got 12th out of 200+ at SCG Dallas today.

[juzamjimjams]

No BBE's, 2 maindeck chains and another in the sideboard, seems pretty awesome in this meta.
This configuration seems to sure up the shardless and miracles match ups, is this perhaps just a blue heavy meta call?

[AngryTroll]

A planeswalker heavy Jund list (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=104494) with 2 Arlinn Kord and 2 Garruk Relentless got 12th out of 200+ at SCG Dallas today.

That list looks awesome. I wish Chains weren't $300+ each.


Here's an open-ended question relevant to both the Punishing and Un-Punishing builds: What is the ideal split between Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, and Inquisition of Kozilek? Most Jund lists (Punishing and un-Punishing) have curves something with like 12 1-cc, 18 2-cc, 5 3-cc, and 2 4-cc spells.

The one drop slot is a little bit thin, the two drop slot is crowded, and most lists run only about five three drops. Deathrite and Thoughseize are fantastic turn one plays, but Lightning Bolt is only a necessary turn-one play in a small number of matchups. Hymn is a more powerful card than Inquisition, but IoK is not far below Hymn in power level. Lowering the mana curve is non-trivial for Dark Confidant and the color requirements are slightly simplified with Inquisition as well. I could easily envision playing 4/1/3 TS, IoK, and Hymn, and from there it's a slippery slope to 4/2/2 or 4/3.

I think that this is especially relevant to lists with multiple Sylvan Libraries main, as resolving a Library or Bob on turn two is extremely strong.

[defector]

Hello Guys,

Here is the report for my top 16 at the starcity event, we had just over 200 players (202-205) for a solid 8 rounds of Legacy. I went in with the 3Chain$ SuperJund planning to feast on Blue decks and dodge GY combo, and I got the second half of that right and the first half of that wrong.

Top 16:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=06/26/2016&end_date=06/26/2016&start=1&finish=16&event_ID=36&city=Dallas&state=TX&country=US

The Deck:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=104494

I have the list at the end as well if that link fails.

Round 1: Shardless BUG
Lose in 3. He had turn one a visions in both games he beat me in, and I got a chains on line exactly one turn after the first a visions popped. I kept a jace under wraps with a chains though i eventually died to Jace ultimate. Creeping Tar Pits got me for a lot and I couldn't keep a Bob alive to save my life.
Pretty frustrating way to start the day.

Round 2: Death and Taxes
I win in 3, all very close. I pick up my first GRV for casting an AD into a Pegasus, Thalia board with only 2 lands and DRS. Liliana does a lot of good work in this match up and getting out plague on Humans was strong.

Round 3: Infect
Game 1 he plays an Inkmoth and shows me three Invorates turn 2, pretty nice. Games 2 and 3 I get plague in Blinkmoth, Lilli, and trade away everything I can for blocks. I have enough removal to get there for games two and three, and barely survive an aggressive start in game 3. Infect is OK for us, but sometimes they just got it.

Round 4: Mono White Soldier Stompy
I win in 2. Pretty cool deck, kind of a DnT idea but leaning more heavily on Soldier archetypes in Mono White. Its also a Chalice on 1 deck which doesn't really bother us. He chalice one'd me twice and I was able to play through and around it.Liliana is amazing there and then getting to either Arlinn or Garruk can seal it up.

Round 5: Tezzeret
I win in 3, and finally found a mu that my chains are good in, most of the rest of the deck is good here too though, Jund is far enough ahead that it doesn't really need a bomb like chains to get there. He gets me in game 2 with chalices on one and two and I can't find an AD for my life. Game three is all about heart wrenching high value Hymns followed by Liliana of the Veil.

Round 6: Burn
I win in 3. This is by far the luckiest I have ever been with Jund. My opponent kept a one lander that was pretty loaded, but didn't see a second land until way too late, I have DRS online and have gained back enough life to stabilize, and then I get some Goyfs out and win. Game 2 my opponent opens with t1 swiftspear, then 2 turn 2 swiftspears and some boltage, that was quick. Game 3 my opponent may have over side boarded or just drew poorly, he gets a lot of sb cards and has en e-bridge in play and kind of runs out of gas, I gain some life with DRS that gets killed then get Arlinn in play, I make a wolf and my opponent has two cards in hand for 3 turns while i swing with the wolf, plus Arlinn after, then get a goyf out. I ultimate Arlin, my opponent asks to read it, and then asks, how big is that goyf? Funny you should ask. I'm able to close it out in two turns from there. had my opponent been more comfortable with Arlinn I think she's just a 4-5 point life game spell there, but who knows, either way I get very lucky in a very bad mu. i'd like to call it some karmic consolation for losing to Shardless.

Round 7: Eldrazi DnT
Lose in 2. This is my win and maybe draw in dreams are crushed. I can't get ahead of my opponent at all and the Eldrazi blinker blinks away my Goyfs and he kills my walkers and then me. All the sads are mine and he goes on to top 8 the event.

Round 8: DnT
Win in 3. Game one he wrecks me, game two I return the favor and then we grind in game 3. I get some hymns off and a Plague on humans, he swords most of what I play and gets me with a RIP. Then we each pick up our second GRV on the day, I had a Bob in play and we both forgot plague gets my creatures too, he got me three cards. It happened after one Lilli ult, so I don't think it was relevant, but its still annoying and sloppy play is no fun. That's the last round of an 8 rounder with a grindy deck, the fatigue is real.

Hats off to my opponents, played a very nice set of guys, all competitors, but good decent folk:) Well run event again by SCG, you guys are always welcome in Dallas and by Dallas, I mean Fort Worth. My playtets partner was on Miracles two slots ahead of me, great day for him and one of my other playtest partners took Lands to 8th, well done team Savage Beating.

The deck and the future:
The chains are overkill, Legacy is too wide for that much concentrated hate especially when you are generally favored vs most brainstorm decks anyway. 3Chain$ is baller, you can't deny it, but a more reasonable expectation would be a singleton in the sideboard. i still love my mana base and don't want to be the third best Punishing Fire deck in the format(looking at you Lands and 4cLoam) but if people want to run it, sure. Love my Hymns, all I want to do is Hymn people all day long.

BBE vs the Super Friends: BBE is probably better, but more flippy and I'm still to mad to make up, my darlin Arlinn is underpowered for legacy, but not by much, she still won me two games and I just really, really like the card, so fuck it, i'm playing her. My jund is discard deck that wants to get ahead through discard and removal and close out with walkers. Its not as bad as you'd think and the decks that other people defend aren't as good as they imply. Its a solid tier two strategy, play around with it:) If I can get an amazing three drop out of Eldrith Moon in our colors everything changes, also B&R may change things too (here's lookin at you Top), but either way, teh core strategy of Bolts, Bobs, Hymns and Goyfs aint bad. Anyway, take away what you can and happy hunting:)

cheers,
defector

Lands-23-
Wasteland X4
Bloodstained Mire X4
Verdant Catacombs X4
Badlands X3
Bayou X3
Taiga X1
Raging Ravine X1
Swamp X2
Forest X1

Red-4-
Lightning Bolt X4

Green-7-
Tarmogoyf X4
Garruk Relentless X2

Black-16-
Thoughtseize X4
Dark Confidant X4
Hymn to Tourach X4
Liliana of the Veil X3
Chains of Mephistopheles X2

Gold-10-
Deathrite Shaman X4
Abrupt Decay X4
Arlinn Kord X2

Sideboard-15-
Graffdiger's Cage X4
Engineered Plague X3
Blood Moon X2
Null Rod X1
Pithing Needle X2
Maelstrom Pulse X2
Chains of Mephistopheles X1

[juzamjimjams]

Congratulations on your result, I must say this is a spicey list.




The deck and the future:
The chains are overkill, Legacy is too wide for that much concentrated hate especially when you are generally favored vs most brainstorm decks anyway. 3Chain$ is baller, you can't deny it, but a more reasonable expectation would be a singleton in the sideboard.


Have you tried with multiples in the sideboard, for particularly blue heavy metas? I have been particularly impressed with two. (I am willing to admit that the baller factor certainly adds to my bias)

I also agree that whilst Arlinn is not particularly 'powerful' per se, she still packs a wallop and is criminally underestimated.

[defector]

Thank you:) It is a hell of a lot of fun to play. I haven't tried two Chains in the board, I did run 1/1 split with one main and one side, and that was fine. I don't see anything wrong with 2 in the 75 or even one maindeck, it sucks with Sylvan though, so bad. Right now I have 1 sylvan main and 1 pulse main and 0 chains and 1 in the board, we'll see how I like that for a bit. Arlinn is so fun, god she's a cool card. I'm also vey interested in Bloodhall Priest. I may try a 4 Bloodhall Priest, 4 Lilli and abandon the super Friends idea for a minute, Bloodhall looks like it could break up DnT boards very well and fight vs Jace pretty well too. I really want a 3 drop in the KoTR caliber for Jund to become complete, but there just isn't anything out there that good, so I always end up hodge podging the top of the curve. Anyway, at least we have some cards to work with to try and keep this deck interesting:)
cheers
defector

[Whit3boy316]

Hello,
Can you guys tell me what kind of meta rhis dexk eants to be in? To give you an example of that im playing against here is my 9 man tourny that went off today.
3 infect (could easily be 4 but my friend was a no show)
1 d&t
1 junk deathblade
1 brew (like red blue flyers...looked like jank)
1 burn
1 manaless dredge
Shardless(me)

I also play against r/u delver.....woukd this deck be good in the meta?

[sampi]

Jund is a fine choice in a fair deck meta, but struggles vs combo. It wants to see miracles and DNT all day,

[Whit3boy316]

Jund is a fine choice in a fair deck meta, but struggles vs combo. It wants to see miracles and DNT all day,

Hows infect?
It seems like my meta blew up with it. Other than that my meta consists of the occasional storm and high tode decks. But ita rare

[juzamjimjams]

Hows infect?
It seems like my meta blew up with it. Other than that my meta consists of the occasional storm and high tode decks. But ita rare

Infect should usually be fine, but it is pretty pilot dependent.
Your removal lines up quite well against them, but there will be times where they'll just have it and there'll be nothing you can do.
Another thing to be aware of is that it's one of the few decks in the format that have ways of dealing with abrupt decay (vines, sometimes apostles blessing).

But as stated, if you're expecting combo outside of infect, you're going to have a bad time.

[Whit3boy316]

Infect should usually be fine, but it is pretty pilot dependent.
Your removal lines up quite well against them, but there will be times where they'll just have it and there'll be nothing you can do.
Another thing to be aware of is that it's one of the few decks in the format that have ways of dealing with abrupt decay (vines, sometimes apostles blessing).

But as stated, if you're expecting combo outside of infect, you're going to have a bad time.


Na not much combo in my local meta that consistantly plays, mostly value creatures (stone forge, moms,etc). At larger events where i expect storm i can always switch to shardless or delver.....i would imagine chains helps with high tide
For storm do you just play pithing needle +discard