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razvan
01-17-2013, 05:05 PM
http://static.starcitygames.com/sales/cardscans/MAG_PC2/Jund.jpg

This is the new thread. The old thread can be found here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24956-DTB-Jund ~Nihil Credo


Chapter 1: What is Jund?

No one playing any format of magic at the end of 2012 needs to be introduced to what is probably the most reviled of any Alara shard: Jund.

Jund is a combination of three colors, black, red and green. Simply put, this deck runs the most effective cards from those colors, combining them into a quasi-midrange "fair" deck.

A fairly popular Jund deck has been Aggro Loam:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16436-Deck-Aggro-Loam

It runs a lot of the cards from the basic Jund list, taking out some of the discard for the Life from the Loam engine, as well as several cards that take advantage of Loam, such as Seismic Assault and the Urza's Saga cycle-lands cycle (!).

Currently, the most well-known Jund deck is the Modern version of Jund, which won several large events, including a few Grand Prix as well as taking 2nd place in PT:Return to Ravnica (damn eggs!).

Ever since its inception in Shards of Alara, a Bloodbraid Elf/Blightning deck has existed, and generally dominated if enough people started playing it. Although Blightning has since falled out of favor, Bloodbraid Elf is a crucial part of the Modern version, and has started popping up in several Legacy lists.

Personally, I do not like BBE as a card, but the power it brings is undeniable in a deck filled with efficient 1-for-1's as well as several powerful card draw engines.

Since a lot of people have played Jund in other formats, it makes sense to give a high-level overview of what is different in the Legacy version of Jund, when compared to Modern:

Wasteland. No other card in the deck makes as large a difference as Wasteland does. Modern Jund is powerful because it can put forward large threats that require immediate responses or they can take over the game. Wasteland in Legacy allows Jund to not only do that, but put forth another angle of attack, mana denial. One of Legacy's premier decks, RUG delver, sometimes runs only 6 colored mana producing lands. You can run up to four Wastelands, and have the ability to get them back. They are almost-uncounterable, free Stone Rains. I originally considered making this list just one card, and it would not have been wrong.
Original Dual Lands. Modern Jund (whether 3 or 4-color) does a lot of damage to itself with the mana base. Each land coming into play tapped will slow you down significantly, especially since you run a discard suite that doesn't affect the board. You are forced to take a lot of damage (fetching a Ravnica shock-land to cast Thoughtseize removes a quarter of your starting life) quickly, and thus can fall prey to speedy aggro or burn decks. On the other side of the coin, you are often unable to take advantage of the damage dealt to your opponent. Having access to pain-free dual lands allow you to survive longer and establish a board presence.
Onslaught Fetch-lands. Bloodstained Mire and Wooded Foothills are absent in Modern, and only Verdant Catacombs is available. Although 4-color Jund runs Marsh Flats effectively, 3-color is forced to run less effective Fetch-lands.
Sylvan Library. Although only played as a 1-of or 2-of, Sylvan Library is a very powerful card. The ability to have a free Sensei's Divining Top every turn adds up, and against certain decks, you are able to draw up to four cards during the game (such as High Tide). Since you are not really taking any damage from your lands coming into play, this is possible.
No Urzatron decks. As far as I can tell, there is no single match-up that is as horrible for Jund in Legacy, as Tron and others are for Modern Jund. The presence of Brainstorm keeps those ridiculous lists in checks, and allows you to run very powerful sideboard cards against Brainstorm decks, such as Red Elemental Blast.


Now, that being said, why should you play Jund? What are the major strengths of this deck:

You run the most efficient cards that are not blue or called Swords to Plowshares. This phrase gets tossed around a lot when describing Jund, and most people have accepted it without thinking, myself included. What this means is that every card you play needs to be answered, or you are ahead significantly. Your discard costs one mana and takes away the most powerful card your opponent has. Your creatures are cheap, and either hit for a lot, or are a source of card advantage. Your removal is cheap and effecively and you run a lot of it. That is basically it.
The deck is very flexible. Most people miss this point. There are a lot of ways to build Jund, from the aforementionned Aggro Loam, to a discard-heavy deck for combo metas, to a removal-heavy version for aggro-matchups, to an effective anti-control package. Jund is versatile and your opponents will not know which configuration you are running.
You have no truly bad match-ups, and you have some great match-ups, unlike the Modern version. This point is very contentious, and while admitting that there are difficult match-ups, you are never completely out when facing any opponent. You have a great RUG delver match-up.
It is not a very popular deck, and it is difficult to hate out. Name one card that completely shuts Jund down. No such card exists, although there are several cards that hurt you.


What are the major weaknesses of Jund:

Combo. This is less of an issue than most people make it out to be. It is true, once combo-decks get going, you are not favored. Your proactive solutions (aka. discard) are cheaper and quicker, but not as powerful as Counterspells. Top-decking a powerful card like Ad Nauseum, or Show and Tell is still a problem. However, most combo-decks cannot simply win with an empty hand, even with those bombs, and you have a lot of cards that help you get to that point.
Junk / Deadguy Ale. As a long-time Jund player, I hate this match-up more than any other. Where you run Lightning Bolt, they run Swords to Plowshares. Where you run Abrupt Decay or Maelstrom Pulse, they run Vindicate. They also run cards like Bitterblossom, Elspeth, and Hero of Bladehold that are very difficult to deal with. They also run Stoneforge Mystic and equipment, as well as discard, Dark Confidant, Liliana and Wastelands. This is a match-up where Bloodbraid Elf is your biggest ace, and it still might not be enough. Good luck. This is probably your worst match-up. More on this in the match-up section.
Burn. You have almost no way to interact with them, other than Inquisition of Kozilek, which has seemingly fallen out of favor, and sideboard, where you do not want narrow solutions against a fringe deck.


This would be a good time to start on the meat of the primer, cards used in the deck. I will go over the most widely used cards and say a few words for each:

Chapter 2: Jund creatures:

Unlike some decks in Legacy, your primary win conditions are actual creatures that go in the red zone. Unlike UW Control, Jund, ostensibly being a part-time control deck, CAN just aggro the opponent very quickly. Burn and some very aggressive creatures can allow you to win before the other deck can set up.

4 Dark Confidant: Dark Confidant will rarely live to see your next upkeep, although the existence of the Deathrite Shaman took some heat off. Since your opponent NEEDS to deal with this card if you survive the next few turns, every turn this lives is a huge bonus. Even combo decks can rarely afford to let this little guy resolve.

People often side him out in matches like Burn or Combo, and that is a mistake. He is just that good. If nothing else, he can block a Goblin Guide, or eat a burn spell meant for your head. Even if he survives, think of it this way: every card you draw is a Time Walk. Even if you take damage, as long as the damage is less than the average damage taken by the cards in your opponents deck (add the total damage dealt by a burn deck and divide it by 60), you are still ahead.

4 Deathrite Shaman: A one-mana planeswalker. Not only that, he has two toughness, which is an inexplicable bonus, and he can be cast with either of your two primary colors. He is good on every possible level.

That having been said, people seem to exalt this guy a bit too much. He is not removal, which is a big thing, unlike Grim Lavamancer. In a format littered with things that you really wanna do 2 damage to, Deathrite Shaman's impact is more subtle. His primary ability is to catapult you a full turn ahead, being able to cast 3cc spells on turn 2, and 4cc spells on turn 3. His life-gain is especially relevant against RUG, a match-up you do not need more help with. His damage dealing is the same as the Grim Lavamancers, but you rarely use him as such early on.

Finally, he is a good maindeck-able hate card against Reanimator, Life from the Loam, Snapcaster, Dredge, and various other insane strategies.

4 Tarmogoyf: People have played less than 4, and some have played zero. I can safely say that they are probably incorrect, or a mad genius.

Tarmogoyf is nothing new, and whatever people said about him, I am sure they said it better than I could. He is huge, for two mana, and more importantly, he can stand up to other people playing their own Tarmogoyfs. I would play 4.

3-4 Bloodbraid Elf: Bloodbraid Elf is a marquee player in Jund decks ever since inception, and people have tried them in legacy before, to average success. In a deck designed to have the best 1-for-1's, a card that does something and leaves behind a 3/2 hasted body has got to be good.

It is, but there are several drawbacks that make BBE a different animal in Legacy than it does in Modern.

First, there are less permanents in a lot of legacy decks. Control and Combo decks often have little to no non-land permanents, and a large part of your deck is removal. Getting an Abrupt Decay or a Ligthning Bolt will never be completely dead, but it is not really something you want in certain match-ups. Flipping a Thoughtseize when you need a creature is similarly weak.

The random aspect of this card can be a problem, given that it costs 4 mana. It doesn't mean that it is bad, but like in Modern, you have to know when to cast it, and this is a reason why most players do not play the full four.

There are two reasons, however, why this card is incredibly powerful. First, it will require two cards to deal with. Jund is really good at attrition, and often your opponent will have nothing in hand. An unanswered 3/2 haste creature by itself is a problem, even on turns 3 or 4, if it flips over a Tarmogoyf that requires more immediate removal.

Secondly, yes, it can flip you into a victory. Cascade still happens, no matter what your opponent does (short of a Stifle), and while they can counter your cascaded-into card instead of the BBE, you still traded 1-for-1 and have a hasty Delver on the ground. Not bad.

0-2 Huntmaster of the Fells: I think it was Brian Kibler that, at one point, lamented Modern Jund as being a amalgamation of cards that do the exact same thing, and posited it as a reason why Jund is unhealthy for the format.

We cannot possibly ignore anything Brian says. We have to try everything that might be good, and this is where I am now.

Huntmaster might not be the best idea, and it might not be as good as BBE. However it does bring certain things to the table.

First and foremost, you can cast into an empty board. With BBE, you do not want to waste the cascade. Cascading into a Lightning Bolt is fine, but getting an Abrupt Decay or a spare Liliana is a waste. Huntmaster is perfect in a top-deck war. It leaves behind a 2/2 Wolf if he gets removed, it gains you life, which could end up mattering, and most importantly, if it flips, acts as removal, and a monster.

Bloodbraid does 6 damage over two turns. Huntmaster could do at least 4, and quite possibly 8, including the spare Wolf. Obviously he is a Lightning Rod for removal, however, Abrupt Decay doesn't hit it, the wolf still lives, and once he flips, he is surprisingly difficult to deal with. Sadly, Abrupt Decay WILL hit the night side, but that's life.

You have to decide which 4-drop you want to use. This isn't modern, where you can use both.

0-2 Scavenging Ooze: This card suffered more than any other by the advent of Deathrite Shaman, but Ooze is still incredibly potent as a creature. I played four of them and I never regretted it. Unanswered, it single-handedly beats RUG Delver and other decks, and it can get you out of a tight jam when you draw it after a prolonged creature battle with the various decks.

The problem is that Deathrite Shaman is just... better, since it's pretty much a one-mana planeswalker. However, I would still try to find space for this guy in the maindeck, maybe only as a 1 or 2-of, because whatever was said for Shaman, this is almost as good, and it can remove a lot of cards very quickly. Remember to always use up your green mana if there are cards your opponent can use in their graveyards, unless you do not have enough to have it survive Lightning Bolt tricks.

Finally, remember that it does require a lot of green mana, so manage your lands carefully.

0-2 Grim Lavamancer: It's a testament to how good Grim Lavamancer was if people still play him when they have Deathrite Shaman.

Grim Lavamancer is removal, simply put. He is slow, but unanswered, he invalidates entire decks. This is a reoccuring theme in Jund. He only has one toughness, which makes him vulnerable to all sorts of commonly (and less commonly played removal), such as Forked Bolt and Darkblast.

He has been marginalized heavily with the release of Return to Ravnica, but still finds a home in slower, more grindy Jund lists.


Chapter 3: Jund removal:

The second aspect of Jund is the heavy removal suite that it plays.

2-4 Abrupt Decay: The new kid on the removal block. Really, I cannot think of the last card that was as good as this thing. An instant "remove everything" is good. Again, people have extolled the virtues of Abrupt Decay for months-on-end, and whatever I can add is not going to make a dent.

However, I do feel the need to add what it cannot kill: Jace, Elspeth, Show and Tell monstrosities, Hero of Bladehold, and man-lands. Luckily, you have other cards that can brutalize Jace, but the others are a real issue for Jund. Thankfully, the ability to kill absolutely EVERYTHING else makes this a mainstay until they print something better.

4 Lightning Bolt: One mana, kill most things. Creatures, planeswalkers, win Tarmogoyf wars, and even end the game a turn quicker, since, you know, everything is a Time Walk. Lightning Bolt has been a staple of control and aggro decks since the beginning of time in 1993, and there will never be another card in Jund colors that is as good as this card.

Sideboarding out Bolts almost never happens, not even against decks where they have no creatures. Even combo can be raced alongside your discard, and there are far more useless cards to take out.

1-2 Maelstrom Pulse: Maelstrom Pulse is a card for the people that want to make sure they are able to kill any one card the opponent can possibly play. It is not wrong to include a number of these in your 75. For a while, I employed two in the sideboard to deal with certain annoyances like Leylines, Helms, Energy Fields, Planeswalkers and the like.

At one point I believed this to be too slow, because I was enamored with Abrupt Decay. I no longer believe this to be the case, and 1 (preferably 2) in the 75 is the correct number. Even 1 in the maindeck is fine. It is really good, and can deal with stuff the rest of your stuff cannot. I once considered Engineered Explosives. This is better.

2-4 Punishing Fire: I once played 4 Lightning Bolts and 4 Punishing Fires, and it was good. This was, however, before Abrupt Decay became a card.

What is good and what is bad about Punishing Fires? First, the good:

You have a reoccuring source of damage. Punishing Fire, in multiples and with a lot of mana, is incredibly effective as a viable end game.
More removal for stuff that is annoying, including Dark Confidant, Deathrite Shaman, Stoneforge Mystic, various aggro creatures, and so on
Good planeswalker solution, especially Liliana. Jace is only slightly more resilient since he can tick up with 2 counters.
If Lingering Souls becomes ubiquitous, this is a great way to snipe those damned tokens.

And now, what is bad about Punishing Fires

You need to find space in the deck without weakening an aspect. You can either exchange it for Lightning Bolt or Abrupt Decay, which seems the easiest solution, or you can run it alongside them.
Two mana for two damage is not exactly something to get excited about.
Deathrite Shaman and Wasteland are very popular
Your mana base is weaker. You cannot fetch Grove of the Burnwillows, and thus need to play at least 2 or 3, most likely 3.

I have seen people remove Wastelands to fit in Punishing Fire, and I think that is a mistake. As I mentionned above, in the mana lands section, you have 3 lands that are sort of floaters, and you can certainly put in Groves in that spot.

Both Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay, I think, are better, but again, Jund is a deck that functions best if tailored to the pilot. It is not wrong per se to trim or eliminate those cards for Punishing Fires, and if your metagame asks for it, certainly go ahead. I am just saying I would not play less than 4 Lightning Bolt if I could help it.

Nowadays, with Young Pyromancer making the rounds, Punishing Fire is again really good. They also seem to run away from using Wasteland, so the Groves are safer.

3-4 Liliana of the Veil: For long I have advocated one thing: if Jace is the God Emperor of Planeswalkers, then Liliana is the god-damned Empress. No one I know actually disagreed with me, but people keep underestimating how absolutely devastating she can be.

First of all, unlike all other non-Jace Planeswalkers, she has three relevant abilities, not just two and a meaning-less game-ending Ultimate that you only activate when you won the game anyway. Her Ultimate comes into play a lot sooner than most, and given the way she works and Jund is build, you will get there a lot. She only costs three, which is insane. She can come down on turn 2, thanks to Deathrite Shaman, and she single-handedly wins the game. You are rarely required to discard something relevant, and she is your out to many problems, such as incremental advantage cards of control and the broken combo pieces.

Where is Liliana bad? Never. It really is that simple. At worst, against brutal streamlined decks like Show and Tell and Burn, she's a Time Walk. At best, even then, she can take over the game. Show and Tell needs two cards to function, and if you can land her and use your discard to lower their hand size, you are in business.

People mention Lingering Souls. I question why they bring it up. Yes, she is not stellar against it, mostly because both her abilities do very little against it. This is all true, but it is irrelevant. Not very many decks play it (Wijaya's deck in Denver did, and Cox lost to it, but it happens), and you can always side out a couple of Liliana. Lingering Souls is a pretty damn good card against you, but it's not because of Liliana.


Chapter 4: Discard and miscelaneous

There are three cards that are relevantly used in Jund maindecks that fit the pattern of straight discard:

Thoughtseize
Chains of Mephistopheles

This is an entirely new section, cutting from what was below. I strongly believe the correct way is to play a 4/2 split of the above cards in the maindeck.

Obviously Chains is not a card that people have lying around but it is very powerful. People maindeck Pyroblasts now in large quantities (seriously, 3 Pyroblast maindeck), and that's a fine choice.

Chains is an incredibly powerful card, able to shut down 25% of their deck in one fell swoop, and completely changing everything. If they do not have a kill condition and you are not at low life, this card just wins. The knock on Jund is that there is no Brainstorm (true), so you can't filter, and you must draw into the correct half of your deck naturally (true).

Now the same applies to your opponent's blue deck, and your stuff is better than theirs, because your stuff does stuff and their stuff does nothing.

People heralded the introduction of Treasure Cruise as the deathknell of Jund. Chains maindeck makes Jund more powerful than it ever was at any point, I believe. Of course, you still have the issue that you cannot filter, and Chains is really good on turn 2, not turn 21. However, keep in mind you are still a deck that murders everything that is on the field with your (often reoccuring) removal, so at some point, you will draw into the correct solution.

Inquisition of Kozilek
Hymn to Tourach
Cabal Therapy

Depending on your removal and creatures, you can fit anywhere from four to seven discard cards in the maindeck. The question is, which of the three is best? Let us take them one by one.

Inquisition of Kozilek is my personal favorite, although it seems to have fallen out of favor with the printing of, you guessed it, Abrupt Decay. The reasoning (by Drew Levin I believe), is that you already have ways to get rid of stuff with casting cost 0 -> 3. This is true, and it is quite possible Thoughtseize is the correct choice.

The issue becomes your life. Decks in Legacy have the very annoying ability to lower your life significantly out of nowhere, or effectively overwhelm you when at low life. Between burn, Dark Confidant, fetch-lands, and Thoughtseize, your life could disappear in a moment. I am a great fan of Inquisition of Kozilek. Every Thoughtseize means one less spell needed for your Storm opponent to kill you. This is not trivial. Often, Storm players will have an easier time casting one less spell, and more crucially, they will have a much easier time SEEING the play-line. This is not often considered, but it is true. Storm players will lose to themselves more than any other players, and every bonus -2 life you can give them will help them exponentially.

Out of the cards that Inquisition does not hit, well, you can just see above, in the "What doesn't Abrupt Decay hit" section. They are still a very serious concern.

Hymn to Tourach is a card that goes in and out of decklists more than almost any other card, including Force of Wills. One week, people are extolling the virtue of how good this card is, and the next, they are saying it is absolutely horrible.

Think of it this way. It's a 2-for-1, and people are removing Force of Will (the defining card of TWO formats) saying it's a bad card... because you 2-for-1 yourself. I am a great proponent for Hymn to Tourach. You have such a reach against most decks, with the ability to generally remove anything, that Hymn can just WIN the game for you right away.

At the beginning of this rant, I said that there are four to seven discard spots in your deck (not including Liliana), and sometimes this could affect which cards you choose. You also could store discard cards in your sideboard (against certain decks where your board removal is useless), so this further impacts what you can use.

Thoughtseize over Inquisition comes down to how many times you think you will face aggro and burn over blue control or combo. Evaluate, and add accordingly. A 2/3 split (either way) also works, but you will sometimes stumble upon an Inqusition late-game when you really want a Thoughtseize. Generally, discard, especially Inquisition, lose potency over the long game, so that's another thing.

If you have seven spots, use 4 TS/IoK and 3 Hymns. Curving your discard on turns 1 -> 3 (culminating with Liliana) is obscene, and will probably win you the game if you can somehow deal with their turn 1 play, if they sneaked it by. You probably can.

4 or 5 discard probably means no Hymns, unless you want to JUST use Hymn to Tourach. It could work.

1-2 Sylvan Library: Not much to be said other than what I said above. Free Sensei's Divining Top, possibly a free Ancestral Recall, this card can single-handedly win you attrition match-ups.

So why only play 1? The theory is that multiples suck, especially when you draw them. This is true, but remember a few things:

You can discard it to Liliana.
If you don't draw it in your opening hand, your first Sylvan will ensure you never draw it.
Your library CAN be killed or countered, and people do so judiciously.
You can go look at 5 cards with two Sylvans. Since you need to resolve the triggers separately, you will need to pay 4 life to see one extra card, or 8 to see both.

All in all, if you have the space, it is not a tragedy to play two of this incredible card.

1-2 Sensei's Divining Top

This is exclusive with Sylvan Library. Do not use both. Just don't do it.

Eli Kassis, the brilliant mind, suggested this. I of course did not see the forest because of the trees... in an entirely different forest.

Library and Chains do not work. If you even peek at a certain card, you have to discard one first, and still pay 4 life to keep the one you drew. Bad idea. Of course, you do NOT have to peek at all, since Library is a may, but idiots like me absolutely will forget.

Sensei's will do for you the same thing it does for Miracles. Filter. You still cannot draw a card without discarding, but at least you can peek. You lose the bomb of paying 4 life to straigh-up draw a card, so the decision will come down to that.

0-2 Life from the Loam: When I saw the Dredge mechanic spoiled in the original Ravnica, I was besides myself. It does WHAT?

Wizards R&D claimed they would have to be hit by the bus to print something like Mana Drain again. They sure got hit by lots of busses since, it seems. Dredge, as a mechanic, is broken. Life from the Loam, as a card, in a format with Wasteland, is doubly so.

This is not Aggro Loam. You do not have endless Cycle-lands to build an engine around. Life from the Loam functions strictly as a bomb that will allow you to thin your library with fetchlands, wasteland your opponent down to no non-basic lands, and protect your lands, getting them back if they want to play the land destruction game. Thus, Life sucks in multiples, far worse than Sylvan, but with two instead of one, you have a greater chance to draw it in the matches where it matters most.


Chapter 5: Lands

4 Wasteland: As I ranted about above, Wasteland is such a core card in this format, one could almost say it defines Legacy. Playing less than four is madness.

One adage that people adhere is the importance of your lands is directly proportional to how many Wastelands you are playing. If your lands are less important than your opponents, play more Wastelands. The reverse is also true. I do not agree with this completely, but it can be true. Your effifient removal allows you to attack their mana base while using your life as a buffer. This is especially true against BUG or RUG, decks where you can kill any of their permanent lands.

Bloodstained Mire
Verdant Catacombs
Wooded Foothills

Fetchlands are another core of Legacy, and people debate what to play with them. In Modern, without Wasteland, your Deathrite Shamans are a liability sometimes, thus requiring you to play more. In Legacy, this isn't the case, so you do not need to go overboard.

I believe 9 fetchlands is the correct number. Depending on your build, you could try 3 each of the above if you have all three basic lands. If not, adjust accordingly, but remember, your deck needs black the most, then green, then finally red. Something like 4/3/2 or 4/4/1 of the above is probably correct.

Mountain
Forest
Swamp

Badlands
Bayou
Taiga

With 4 Wastelands and 9 Fetchlands, you have about 11 actual lands that produce mana. You need to split them amongst those two categories.

A default group would be one of each basic land, two of each dual lands, and I do not recommend going below this number for each. You want basic lands to fight off against aggressive decks packing wastelands, because you want your removal and discard to always be live. You need dual lands because of cards like Liliana and either BBE or Huntmaster will put a strain on your mana, especially the double black of Liliana.

The final two lands I recommend to be a swamp, and another Bayou or a Badlands. This will give you enough black to be effective, and not skimp on the other colors. In some match-ups, if you get Life from the Loam, the basic forest becomes critical.


Chapter 6: Experimental Cards

Lingering Souls

Now, this is a card that keeps popping up in various decklists across all non-Vintage formats. It made a huge splash in Modern Jund at GP: Chicago as a way to fight other Jund decks, and address the weaknesses to Infect and Affinity and other random aggro.

It does all of that. The question now becomes, is it good in Legacy, and is it good in Legacy Jund?

It is very good in Legacy. Tom Martell won GP:Indianapolis back in March 2012 with that card. You get, overall, 4 1/1 flying spirits for 5 mana, which is not exactly broken when it comes to power for mana (I mean, Tarmogoyf!), but the fact that there is so many...

But what you did notice is that Lingering Souls is a DEFENSIVE card at heart. It is used to stall things coming your way. Now, which match-ups do you want to stall things?

Goblins and Affinity are two good options. Being able to block and kill Signal Pest and other annoyances is great. Goblins usually wins by chaining Ringleaders and Siege-Gang Commanders, which will quickly overwhelm you without a sweeper, so I am not entirely convinced that it helps.

Finally Elves and Infect either win through a monstrous rush or before Lingering Souls becomes active, although Deathrite Shaman definitely helps the Infect match-up.

There is one more match-up: Deadguy Ale/Rock. They do not run sweepers in general, and they are an annoying match-up. They run Lingering Souls and Bitterblossoms to clog up the board, and you might need the extra punch of Lingering Souls to keep up. It will not make that match-up any less annoying, but it could be something.

Now I will tell you why I don't think you should play this in Jund.

First of all, you need white, and that means at least one extra dual land, which will have to replace a basic land. This isn't a tragedy, but it is definitely something to consider. You are making your mana base significantly worse, and some of the decks where Lingering Souls helps against have Wastelands. This is a bit of a "robbing Peter to pay Paul" type of scenario.

Secondly, you do not have equipment. Yes, you notice that Rock/Deadguy/Tom Martell all have/had equipment to slap on a token and go to town with. You do not. This might sound like a small complaint, but small complaints do add up.

Thirdly, this is not modern. Combo decks are everywhere, and Souls is very slow. You might have enough control elements to not die on turn 3, but you still need to present a clock, and Lingering Souls is not a serious clock. It also takes up a lot of mana which might be better spent elsewhere.

So, all in all, I do not think this is going beyond experimental. I would like to be proven wrong, however.


Ulvenwald Tracker

Homer: [ahem] A lot of you would think I was crazy if I did this.
Burns: He's crazy!

A lot of you would think I am crazy for suggesting this. Isn't Grim Lavamancer strictly better?

Grim Lavamancer is a fantastic card, burning up things left and right, and going after the opponent when there is nothing that he can kill. However, he suffers from several problems:

Lavamancer is very graveyard dependant, and you need to not forget about your Tarmogoyf, Deathrite Shaman and your opponent doing unsightly things as well.
Lavamancer cannot kill some of the larger monsters that you need to take down, including Tombstalker and Hero of Bladehold.
Lavamancer is bad in multiples, so Ulvenwald Tracker could function as suplemental Lavamancers.

So, what does this guy do well? For once, he can quickly remove an opposing Dark Confidant, Snapcaster Mage, Vendillion Clique by himself. So in a way, he acts as removal. He does this even early, when your graveyard is not as full as you would like.

He has a lot of synergy with Tarmogoyf as well. First, you win Tarmogoyf wars. It is a good trade to clear an opposing Tarmogoyf with this guy. Secondly, it turns a Tarmogoyf into a killing machine of opposing creatures, as he will survive whatever you want to kill. It is not unlikely to be able to snipe down a Tombstalker with a 5/6, which Tarmogoyfs will be usually in the long game.

I do not think this will break the format in half, and it might be less effective than Lavamancer even given the above, but it's worth keeping in mind. I will certainly test one.


[b]Strangleroot Geist

Antonius suggested this little guy and he certainly is interesting. First, let me tell you that the persist and undying mechanic (especially undying) are a favorite of mine... this is legacy.

Path to Exile is a card that is fairly common in Modern, and less so in Legacy. Swords to Plowshares however, is a 4-of in a lot of decks, including Junk.

That being said, Strangleroot Geist might just be good enough to circumvent this, whereas Kitchen Finks and Geralf's Messenger might not, despite those being superior cards.

Each card has their advantages. Finks gain you 2 life, the Messenger drains them 2 life, and the Geist has haste and costs one less, which ultimately is what drew me to it over any other.

A lot of people will look at Finks and GM as a do-nothing on turn 3 against combo, and they would be right. The Geist comes in one turn earlier, and is already in business, leaving your third turn to either keep mana open to deal with the broken-ness or use a discard spell to help slow them down.

Furthermore, the undying mechanic has one more bonus with a card that was recently promoted to maindeck instead of experimental, Cabal Therapy.

I talked (or will talk, as of this writing) about Cabal Therapy a lot, because there is a lot to talk about, but having an undying creature grow bigger from the flashback cost is really nice. Unlike Lingering Souls, the Geist is quick and does similar things on defense, albeit on the ground, and generally shouldn't be defending anyway.

You need to play 3-4 of these guys to get any benefit, 4 most likely, and it does speed your deck up.


Searing Blaze

Another Antonius suggested card, Searing Blaze has long been a staple of some burn decks, and it might have a home in Jund.

First, it passes the "Jund damage test", being able to act as removal. Doing 3 damage to your opponent and sniping something is very good. It still sadly doesn't kill big things, and it is conditional upon Landfall, which generally we can work around if we control the lands we play.

Keep in mind that Searing Blaze has two targets. You need to be able to target both the player and their creature to cast it, which makes it as useful as an air conditioner on the ice planet Hoth when they have a Nimble Mongoose out.

This will not be a 4-of in any Jund deck, but I could see it being a 2-of in a more burn heavy build.


Chainerís Edict
Diabolic Edict

Matt Pavlic, I think, suggested this card, and people have done well with it. I bunch both of them together because the differences are clearly visible, however, the cards to the precise same thing: They make them sacrifice a creature that you probably could not kill otherwise.

This is a Liliana of the Veil for cheaper. The one black mana does make a lot of difference, especially since you can cast it on turn 2, or even have Daze backup on turn 2 with a Deathrite Shaman. This is a big deal.

So why Chainerís over Diabolic? Matt suggests that the flashback is relevant, as hitting 7 mana is possible and more important than it being instant. Letís look at the instances where the card is even necessary:

- Show and Tell / Sneak Attack-> Emrakul (Griselbrand hitting the field is a problem regardless of which card)
- True-Name Nemesis

Against Show and Tell, of course, having Diabolic Edict in response to them Emrakul-ing is pretty good, the card could win the game right there and then. It is *unlikely* that it will always work, but it will give you some percentages.

Against TNN, of course, Chainerís is probably more relevant. The stupid Merfolk has a way about it to make the game go long, and squeezing every little bit out of your cards could be the winning ticket. So I think that it comes down to that. Decks running TNN donít have an over abundance of mana, so theoretically, you could overload them anyway, and you would do that by casting something at the end of their turn, so even Diabolic is fine in that situation. Either way, this is a powerful effect and warrants inclusion.

razvan
01-17-2013, 05:06 PM
Chapter 7: Sideboarding and Match-ups

It is hard to set up a sideboard in a primer, because so much changes. I will talk about each match-up that is relevant first, then list some cards that are useful. I won't bother grouping the decks in fair and unfair, because I do not necessarily believe that helps in sideboarding.

For the sake of abbreviation, I will use the Pyroblast when referring to either Red Elemental Blast or Pyroblast. Pyroblast is better if you use Bloodbraid Elf, as you can cast it doing nothing and still have it end up in your graveyard for Deathrite Shaman or Tarmogoyf.


Show and Tell

Might as well delve into the big one. Show and Tell wins in various means, be it Hive Mind, Sneak attack, Omniscience, or just by putting in a huge monster into play.

Depending on their strategy, your game can be really hard or really easy. If they plop down an Emrakul, and you happen to have a Liliana you can cast next turn, thank them for a 2 for 0 (you keep the Liliana and the card you put into play).

If they put down a Griselbrand or an Omniscience, well, things will get rough, and you do not want to let that happen. Sneak Attack has fallen a bit out of favor right now, but it is still there, and is probably your hardest thing to deal with, since they can also just hard-cast it and there is nothing you can do about it.

As a general rule, the more discard you have, the better. They have a devil of a time dealing with an active Liliana if they haven't gone of, and your pinpoint discard, and Hymns, will break them.

Good cards against them:

Pyroblast
Surgical Extraction
Krosan Grip
More Discard

Cards to sideboard out:

Abrupt Decay
Lightning Bolt

You put enough pressure with your control on them to make Lightning Bolt actually useless, as you won't try to race them. Keep them in if you don't have enough other things to take care of their stuff. Surgical complements your discard a lot, so if you have it, and I recommend you do, it can be very powerful. Finally, Krosan Grip can kill Sneak Attack, if they have it. Do not really bother bringing it in against Omniscience, but if they have no action, hey, congratulations.

Your Abrupt Decays can and should try to nail Lotus Petals in game one, and sometimes you can luck into a win that way, but I wouldn't hold my breath.


High Tide

High Tide really is another two-card combo deck, and it runs less actual protection but far more filtering than Show and Tell. They can win on turn 3 with Turnabout, but it is likely you have until turn 4, where their chance of fizzling is low.

Keep in mind that they CAN win without Time Spiral (unlikely, but possible), but they CANNOT win without High Tide, and conveniently, your Inquisitions do take that card.

Good cards against them:

Pyroblast
Surgical Extraction

Cards to sideboard out:

Abrupt Decay
Lightning Bolt
Wasteland

Do not bother with Candelabra of Tawnos. It is an excellent card for them, but like Show and Tell, don't bother with it. Your match-up is not that bad if you run a lot of discard, and Pyroblasts and Surgicals will make it even easier. If you have space for Lightning Bolts in your maindeck, leave them in to give you a chance to win one turn earlier. Take out a Wasteland or two if you want to keep the Lightning Bolts.


Storm

Storm is, in a nutshell, dependent on the pilot. Good storm players are a huge problem, less experienced players will fold to your discard. Depending on the build, you also will have a huge array of helpful sideboard cards, while they are unable to bring anything in.

Also, there are so many variations of Storm that you cannot possibly prepare for every avenue. It is better to try to stop their common ways, like Brainstorm, and disrupt their rituals.

First, know that they might have basic lands. If not, your Wastelands are great, such as against TES. You are generally unable to deal with them top-decking an Ad Nauseum. This can and will happen. The good news is that it is not trivial to win with very few cards in hand and zero storm. They can chain Lotus Petals, LEDs and rituals into a lethan blast with just one card in hand, yes, but it is unlikely, especially if you put pressure on them. There are tricks with Burning Wish and Tutors, especially if they start an Ill Gotten Gains loop, so don't durdle around, be as aggressive as you can. Their AN will rarely kill them, but your Lightning Bolts can be a surprise for them, so hedge them if you can.

Try to think of the quickest way to kill them, and cast cards accordingly. If they have 6 cards in hand, do not cast Liliana over a Tarmogoyf. If they have 2, then it is obviously a much better play. Think ahead, because they will, and make the best of every opening they give you. Every turn you live past turn 3 or 4 is a bonus.

Good cards against them:

Pyroblast
Surgical Extraction
Duress

Cards to sideboard out:

Abrupt Decay
Scavenging Ooze
1 land

They will bring in Dark Confidants, or more Empty the Warrens against you. You still have Lightning Bolts. Use them. Overall, there are worse things you could face than Storm.


Belcher / Spanish Inquisition

SI is a combination of Storm and Belcher, but unlike Storm decks, they have no filtering. They are a turn-1, all-in type of deck. What can I say, you have no Force of Wills, these decks pray on decks such as Jund.

Or do they? Well, there is not much you can do if they win the die roll and win on turn 1 both games 1 and 3, short of packing Leyline of Sanctity. Leyline is ONLY good against these guys and burn, so if you expect a lot of these decks, finding space could be good.

However, sometimes you will find that they will not be able to win on turn 1, and then your hand becomes important. Obviously try to have some sort of discard if possible (especially on the play), but also try to think about how you could win. Although these all-in decks cannot recover from a fizzle, it is possible, especially in the case of SI. Do not keep unplayable hands that do nothing until turn 4, and even then, are able to just cast a random BBE. Try to put early pressure on them, and hope to draw into more discard.

Obviously, turn 1 discard, turn 2 Hymn, turn 3 Liliana is a fine opening as well.

Good cards against them:

Surgical Extraction
Duress
Ancient Grudge

Cards to sideboard out:

Abrupt Decay
1 land
Lightning Bolt

You plan on them fizzling, minus the Duress. A timely Surgical could help as well. You bring in Grudges for Decays because they can sometimes cast a Charbelcher to avoid your discard, but still wait for mana.

Good luck.


Ichorid

Well, you know how it goes. Ichorid, in some sort of shape, has to exist for as long as the mechanic is legal. Hopefully, it will always be legal.

First, I like the name Ichorid for the deck. It's old-school, and sounds better than "dredge". So I will keep using it.

A lot of us came from Vintage, where Dred... I mean Ichorid... is a menace that requires a significant part of the sideboard to be dedicated to it. The very existence of Bazaar of Baghdad as an uncounterable way to get everything going sees to that. There is nothing even remotely close to anything as powerful as that in Legacy, so the deck doesn't inspire the same amount of horror as the big brother.

That being said, it *can* win on turn 1, something that Vintage Ichorid doesn't actually do. An opening of Land, 2 LEDs, 2 Faithless Lootings and 2 Golgari Grave-Trolls have happened. Yes, it sucks, but chances are this shan't be a regular thing.

So what can you do game 1? Well, Deathrite Shaman and Scavenging Ooze get some mileage. If you are able to go first, and they do not go crazy, you can certainly catch them with a weak discard effect or a weak discard in general on the back of the Shaman. Your Hymn to Tourachs are obviously weak, but your other discard could be effective at getting an LED or a Faithless Looting. Other than that, you hope they stumble or fizzle, because if they get going, they are nigh unstoppable.

Past game 1, you should have some sort of plan that will hopefully balance things out:

Good cards against them:

Surgical Extraction
Leyline of the Void
Nihil Spellbomb
Tormod's Crypt
Relic of Progenitus
Damnation
Pyroclasm
Maelstrom Pulse

Cards to sideboard out:

Hymn to Tourach
Thoughtseize

Generally, the more you have, the better it is. Graveyard hate, in all it's form, have to exist in sideboards, and you bring it all. You have a non-trivial amount of maindeck graveyard hate too, and it will certainly come in handy. As usual, try to see what they can do, and how you can best stop it. Remember to use Surgical Extraction in response to a lot of things, as their Narcomoebas and Bridge from Below have to be in the graveyard for their abilities to resolve. If you can remove Narcomoebas and the next best come into play creature, be it Ichorid, Bloodghast or Nether Shadow, you should be in good shape. You can also kill your own creature in response to a large set of Bridge from Below triggers to make nothing happen, but that's not of great help if they reanimate some sort of monster.


Elves

Yes, Forest, Llanowar Elf. Great, it's 1993 and we are all 12 again. Except, these people win on turn 3. Great, again.

Elves is a deck that you have a lot of interaction with, which is unusual for combo decks. You have discard (even Hymn is huge), and removal for everything.

It is difficult to provide an "order" of elves to kill. Everyone says Wirewood Symbiote, and they are not wrong, that card is enemy #1, as it can make your removal useless with self-bounce, and is part of the combo. Next is Heritage Druid, especially if paired with Nettle Sentinels. They can go infinite with that combination.

Any elf that makes mana if you have a surplus of removal at your disposal. A first turn Llanowar or especially Deathrite should get judiciously removed.

One of their aces is Natural order for Craterhoof Behemoth, which, as the name suggests, is a big deal. Chances are that you will be overwhelmed, so watch out for that. Always use your removal with that in mind, and count your life and their creatures.

Finally, Glimpse of Nature is their engine, and stopping it will make the game a lot easier.

Overall, Elves can go explosive, but you actually have interaction.

Damnation
Black Sun's Zenith
Pyroclasm
Cursed Totem
Engineered Plague

Cards to sideboard out:

Huntmaster of the Fells / Bloodbraid Elf
Liliana of the Veil
Wasteland

Generally, your sideboard should have some sort of mass removal, and it all is incredibly live against Elves. Pyroclasm comes down early and cleans up, just make sure you use it before they go crazy. Damnation and BSZ are all-stars as well, and I have used them effectively against decks that have Knight of the Reliquary or Tombstalkers, or Hero of Bladehold.

Finally, Engineered Plague just wins you the game. If you have about 3-4 cards that are relevant against elves, your maindeck is strong enough to just plow through them.


Goblins

Goblins is always on the map, then off, then on again, then off again. Preparing for Goblins is simply pointless. If you have the removal you should against Elves, you will find they are simply an aggro version of the combo Elves.

They have a few threats you need to be aware of.

Siege-gang Commander is a serious problem. He attritions you down, he is un-Abrupt Decay-able, and can win in a top-deck. Goblin Ringleader and Goblin Warchief are their engine and fast mana, so watch out for those. Discard should be pointed at those two over anything else.

Finally, everyone knows the story of first-turn Goblin Lackey. If you have a way to deal with it, like Lightning Bolt or Deathrite Shaman, you should be ok.

The only thing Goblins has that elves doesn't are Wastelands and Rishadan Port. Aether Vial is also a card, but your discard will make it useless. I wouldn't really worry about it unless they have Wastelands and Ports to make it matter.

Sideboarding is the same as above, except Liliana is slightly better. You should be ok against Goblins as well.


Affinity

Affinity is generally not a problem, now that we have Abrupt Decay. This card single-handedly changed the game. They are about as fast as Elves or Goblins, except you have more interaction with them post-game 1, as Ancient Grudges, Krosan Grips and the like are coming in.

Not only that, their land is very vulnerable, unlike the rock-solid mana of Elves and Goblins. Really, you have so much that is good against them, you do not need any help.

Good cards against them:

Damnation
Black Sun's Zenith
Pyroclasm
Ancient Grudge
Krosan Grip

Cards to sideboard out:

Huntmaster of the Fells / Bloodbraid Elf
Thoughtseize

Really, you have so much to bring in, pick their poison. If you fear their Etched Champions, you should keep your Lilianas in. They are fast, but they have so many vulnerabilities that Jund should prey on their deck.


RUG Delver of Secrets

In all honestly, your deck is designed to beat them. They have a good clock and they have disruption, but you have cheap and effective removal. Not to mention, they run all non-basics, and sometimes only have 6 actual lands that produce mana. If they do not have an early Delver, and you have Life from the Loam, there is almost no way you can lose. Game one, in fact, is a joke, as they have almost no way to deal with anything.

Game 2 (and chances are you won't need a game 3), they will bring in several things including Submerge, and maybe some graveyard hate, especially if they lost to Life from the Loam. If they do so, congratulate them on dead cards.

Sumberge can be a problem, however. They are moving towards some sort of singularity when all their cards are free, and in addition to it all, not being able to block with your Tarmogoyfs, and losing Shamans randomly, can push them slightly over the edge.

No matter though, the match is still easy.

Good cards against them:

Pyroblast

Cards to sideboard out:

Thoughtseize

This is not necessary. You just generally take out something that does damage to you to have a bit more buffer, and take out something to deal with Sumberge. Keep in mind that they will side in Sulfuric Vortex, so make sure you have a plan for it. Overall, they should not be a problem for you.

If you are facing the UR version, with more burn and no green, just realize that they are simply a slower burn deck with Stifles and Snapcasters. Slightly more problematic, but nothing you shouldn't handle.


Burn

Burn is a problem. Unlike the other linear decks, there is no way to interact with them. You can use your removal on stuff like Goblin Guide and Vexing Devil, but beyond that, you are at the mercy of their direct attacks.

Hymn to Tourach and Inquisition of Kozilek are all-stars, and if you get a hand heavy on those, you should be able to win, but other than that, I wouldn't really hold a high hope.

Dark Confidant is an interesting card here. First, look at it this way: you need to kill them before they kill you, minus Leyline of Sanctity. On average, their spell does 3 damage, so you have 7 cards that you can survive, 6 if you figure damage from fetchlands and such. Dark Confidant will do less than 3 damage to you, on average, and if you can make it block a Goblin Guide, it's great. Him dying is a bonus to your Deathrite Shamans.

Finally, you need luck, so you should hope he gives you lands while you naturally draw more stuff. He also helps kill them, so I wouldn't side them out, and might even try to aggressively use him.

Since their deck is about a third land, that would mean that 9-10 cards would be enough to win the game. Any discard spell is basically a Time Walk, and Hymn to Tourach is a Time Stretch!

Deathrite Shaman is not as effective as you think, because you would need dead creatures to gain back life. This is a very awkward scenario... as they run few to none.

Good cards against them:

Obstinate Baloth
Leyline of Sanctity
Umezawa's Jitte

Cards to sideboard out:

Thoughtseize

This is about the extent of cards that are useful against them. Really, you cannot afford to run Leylines, but Baloths could be a good idea now that Jund and BUG are gaining popularity. Finally, some Jund lists run 1-2 Jitte, and while I do not think that's an optimal card, if you have it, use it and hope.


BUG Aggro

This deck is a bit more annoying than BUG, but suffers from similar problems. They are generally unable to win as fast, and have an equally vulnerable mana base, although they run a couple more lands. They traded Nimble Mongoose for Deathrite Shaman, burn for Hymn to Tourach, and add Tombstalker as their big finisher, as well as have Abrupt Decay as their main removal.

They still run big blue cards and spend their turns durdling around with Ponder and Brainstorm, all the while giving you time to outmuscle them. Do not get me wrong, they are far more dangerous than RUG, but not having that little hexproof bastard is a great thing. Your removal is incredibly live, just watch out for Tombstalker. If you have a first turn discard, prioritize Hymn to Tourach above anything else, as it will put you into too big a hole.

Good cards against them:
Cards to sideboard out:

That's right, I wouldn't really get too much in or out. Your deck works fine against them. Their plan is to maybe bring in Sinkholes, especially when they are on the play, and maybe a graveyard hate card or two. Keep a stable mana base and just grind them out. They have nothing as powerful as your BBEs or Liliana of the Veil. Pyroblast is fine if you think they are going to go big blue against you.


BUG Shardless

These guys basically take the normal BUG sans Delver of Secrets, strip a lot of the anciliary stuff like Tombstalkers, Ponders, other random non Abrupt Decay removal, and shove in 4 Shardless Agents and 4 Ancestral Visions, and some Planeswalkers, mostly Jace and Liliana. They also have less of everything else, including Hymns.

Whereas you wanted to be the control deck vs. the other BUG, this time you are strictly the aggressor. Just go over them. There is very little you can do if they get to cast a Shardless Agent, just hope they do not hit Ancestral. They are slower and keep the terrible mana base of BUG, so your wastelands are incredibly good.

Good cards against them:

Pyroblast

Cards to sideboard out:

Random Assortment

You can safely ignore most of their stuff, but you really don't want to get them to resolve Ancestral. You can trim some cards like Lightning Bolt, since they only work on their Shamans and Jace, and you have Abrupt Decay and discard for those. They do run a couple of Liliana's you want to watch out for though.


Stoneblade variants

Best advice I can give you is to stick a Dark Confidant and protect it. Stoneblade is an excellent deck that sometimes gives you openings the size of the Soviet Union when they durdle around. Their Stoneforge Mystics are generally not going to do much because of your removal, and they are trimming on their Force of Wills because they cannot afford to trade 2 for 1.

Generally, they are mostly of the Esper configuration, which also means Lingering Souls. Most people piloting Jund are terrified of Lingering Souls, and it is a powerful card if you do not have Maelstrom Pulse. If you expect a lot of these decks, pack a couple in your 75. Most players will not expose Lingering Souls to graveyard removal if they can, so you do have time. A single Fog effect is a lot better than two, or even four.

The problem with Stoneblade, however... they are very good at stalling you. Gobs of removal into Snapcaster Mage into more removal, as well as pinpoint discard, sweepers and Jaces makes for a difficult game. Hymn and Dark Confidant, if they happen, are a huge advantage, especially as they run a lot of lands. Be as fast as you can and do not try, do not even think about, trying to play the control game against them. This is as pure a control deck as there is.

Good cards against them:

Pyroblast
1-2 Ancient Grudge

Cards to sideboard out:

Inquisition of Kozilek
Scavenging Ooze
1 Land

As loathe as I am to slow the deck down, you need to be able to answer their big things. Countering a Jace and dealing with their equipment is huge. Abrupt Decay is not as good as you think it is, so that might mean a cut. Ancient Grudge is very good, especially if you draw them both, as it means neither of their big ace equimpents will hurt you. Huntmaster and BBE are crucial against Jace.


Junk / Deadguy Ale / The Rock / GW Maverick

Well, here you have it. The most annoying of all matchups. You will learn to hate these decks a lot. And here is why:

Whatever you run, whatever you do, they run it better.

Lightning Bolt? They have Swords to Plowshares.
Abrupt Decay or Maelstrom Pulse? They have Vindicate.
Creatures? They have Hero of Bladehold and Knight of Reliquary. KotR has fallen out of favor, but it is very powerful if it can avoid Abrupt Decay.
Depending on the build, they have stuff like Elspeth, Knight Errant, equipment package, Bitterblossom, Lingering Souls, Hymn to Tourach, and even acceleration.
They have Green Sun Zenith to run a toolbox
Mother of Runes is still a card, and it is one of the few ways to shut down Abrupt Decay
They have Wasteland and a lower curve than you do, as well as mana creatures.

It is not a fun match-up. Whatever you do, they come on the top with something more annoying.

I group them all together because they are similar enough, run a lot of the same, and your game against them is also very similar. Obviously other decks (like Combo) have a much easier time against Maverick than they do against Deadguy, but you specifically do not. The best you can hope for is to out-aggro them, because you are certainly the beatdown. If you plan on playing the control game, you better have a good plan to make Dark Confidant survive a lot.

Good cards against them:

Ancient Grudge
Obstinate Baloth
Damnation

Cards to sideboard out:

Discard

Post board, you still want to be the aggressor, but it is good to have Damnation type effects against them, to clean up their board. They will develop their board faster than you can, and that is bad.


U/W Miracles

We come to the last two decks, and the first one is Miracles. Miracles relies upon the Miracle mechanic to miraculously win. Ok, I am done.

In all seriousness, Miracles is a very difficult match-up, and it would be a mistake to think it is simply Stoneblade.

First and foremost, they run Counterbalance / Top, which, due to Abrupt Decay is not a huge problem, but it is one none-the-less. Secondly, they run a lot of removal, including a one-mana Wrath of God, Swords to Plowshares, Detention Spheres, and the like.

Their win conditions are varied, but they either use Entreat the Angels, Jace, or Helm of Obedience / Rest in Peace / Energy Field, or all of the above.

Good cards against them:

Pyroblast
Koth of the Hammer
Ancient Grudge
Krosan Grip

Cards to sideboard out:

Trim cards

You can try to be faster, and you can try to attrition them, but you need to be prepared for their over-the-top bombs. Unlike Esper Stoneblade, their lands are more stable and more basic. Getting a Dark Confidant or a Sylvan Library early and sticking it will go a long way.


Jund

Then, we come to the mirror. Mirror matches are always difficult, especially for Jund where there is quite a bit of variation in the cards it runs. There are several things that will determine the result:

The first player to fire off the 2-for-1s, like Hymn to Tourach, Life from the Loam, Dark Confidant or Bloodbraid Elf
Winning mana wars, especially early Wasteland wars
Liliana of the Veil, especially double Diabolic Edict if possible
Better sideboard
Less pinpoint discard
Life management
Bloodbraid Elf flips

Games will go long. Very long. Life is important in the long run. Since both of you will be in top-deck mode before long, and none of you can deal with the top-deck, all you can do is have less dead cards, aka discard.

I could spend the rest of my life describing how to beat Jund with Jund, and still not be useful to anyone, so I won't. Someone is mad enough to put Lingering Souls in Legacy Jund too, and that is a pretty funky thing to do, but given that you usually want to be the aggressor, and Lingering Souls is good but not too fast, I am not sure that's a good idea. You sure will win grindy match-ups, like the last two decks I described.

Good cards against them:

Obstinate Baloth
Equipment

Cards to sideboard out:

1-mana Discard

You have to manage you BBEs carefully. If they have nothing, do not just cast one on an empty board. You can afford to have it flip a Liliana if you already have one, but if they have nothing, and you flip Abrupt Decay or discard, it's a bad deal.

Just take it easy, do not keep do-nothing hands, and judiciously kill their Dark Confidants and, to a lesser extent, Deathrite Shaman.


Chapter 8: Decklists

In this section, I will post my decklist. Yes, mine. Generally, I try to play the optimal decklist as much as the next guy, but I also like to play with certain cards I find cool. Also, keep in mind that you can tailor the deck to your strengths, your metagame, and that goes doubly for your sideboard.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Sylvan Library

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Wasteland
3 Bayou
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Badlands
1 Forest
2 Swamp

3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Golgari Charm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Jund Charm
1 Thoughtseize
2 Koth of the Hammer
1 Krosan Grip
2 Hymn to Tourach


Chapter 9: The future of Jund

This is not a section that I intend to write a lot, and I plan on updating it with new spoilers from the new set, or new ideas or combinations that have not been tested.

However, since 2 of the 3 guilds have already been spoiled, only Gruul remains in Gatecrash, and so far, it doesn't seem to be too exciting.

I tried hard to think of a way Domri Rade can be played, and I have failed. He seems almost good enough in a deck with a lot of creatures, and if the format switches to that, he could be fairly good late game as removal (have a Tarmogoyf kill something, then attack?). But until that happens, he is not really anything to write home about.

Finally, Zuhair (zulander) will add a bunch of stuff as well, which I intend to put in the correct sections in this post.

Antonius
01-19-2013, 12:29 PM
For all the jund tinkerers, I have a few nagging questions:

Has anyone tried running Cabal Therapy in combination with persist/undying dudes like Strangleroot, Finks or Geralf's?

Has anyone tried a burn-heavy build that runs more burn in the place of discard? I have a nagging dislike for discard that mainly centers around nightmares of top-decking it on turn thirteen or fourteen. I think Searing Blaze has to be one of the top ten juiciest cards ever printed and in neo-Jund I see a deck that loves its 2-for-1s.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Grim Lavamancer

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Searing Blaze
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sylvan Library

4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Taiga

Granted, this list will be much worse against combo, but I don't really care because historically I've done pretty well playing decks that don't give a fuck about combo. But then again, if I continue to not give a fuck about combo, the OG Legacy Jund deck is probably a lot better than any list of this can ever be. But Bloodbraid is just too damn cool to not play around with.

SaintS
01-19-2013, 12:43 PM
For all the jund tinkerers, I have a few nagging questions:

Has anyone tried running Cabal Therapy in combination with persist/undying dudes like Strangleroot, Finks or Geralf's?

Has anyone tried a burn-heavy build that runs more burn in the place of discard? I have a nagging dislike for discard that mainly centers around nightmares of top-decking it on turn thirteen or fourteen. I think Searing Blaze has to be one of the top ten juiciest cards ever printed and in Jund I see a deck that loves its 2-for-1s.

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Grim Lavamancer

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Searing Blaze
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sylvan Library

4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Taiga

Granted, this list will be much worse against combo, but I don't really care because historically I've done pretty well playing decks that don't give a fuck about combo. But then again, if I continue to not give a fuck about combo, the OG Legacy Jund deck is probably a lot better than any list of this can ever be. But Bloodbraid is just too damn cool to not play around with.


Please don't trust my comment 100% as I didn't test the list yet. I've always played "control-ish" decks as far as I remember, and even if red can "control" the board a bit, it doesn't control all you would like to control and I just find discard better than burns here, but as said on the previous thread, Jund is a list you can/have to adapt for the meta you're playing in.

About your/THE lists I've seen until here, isn't wasteland a big deal mana-wise? do you always have the mana you need? I know the Shaman helps quite a lot, but still I'm afraid that I might not be able to cast what I want when I want it.

Anyway I'll test the list tomorrow and I'll come back with some comments on it (I'll test a version with 2-3 manlands)


Congratz on the DTB achievement!

lyracian
01-19-2013, 01:24 PM
So how much impact have you found baloth to have? Seems good against other discard decks

defector
01-19-2013, 10:31 PM
Thanks for the primer! I can't wait to play this deck at a tournament, as a long time Mav player it's great to see aggro having a strong representative in Legacy. My first version that I going to start testing is this:

Lands-23-
Wasteland X4
Bloodstained Mire X4
Wooded Foothills X2
Verdant Catacombs X2
Badlands X3
Bayou X3
Taiga X2
Swamp X1
Mountain X1
Forest X1

Creatures-18-
Dark Confidant X4
Tarmogoyf X4
Bloodbraid Elf X4
Deathrite Shaman X4
Grim Lavamancer X2

Spells-15-
Abrupt Decay X4
Lightning Bolt X4
Thoughtseize X4
Hymn to Tourach X3

Planewalkers-3-
Liliana of the Veil x3

Enchantmen-1-
Sylvan Library X1

Sideboard-15-
Extirpate X3
Choke X3
Engineered Plague X3
Pyroblast X3
Umezawa's Jitte X2
Hymn to Tourach X1

I want to try out choke vs the blue control decks. I think cascading into it may be the nail in the coffin. I feel like the deck needs extirpate to put combo decks away and goblins and elves scares me enough to run e plague. I've only gold fished this so definitely room for improvement/development. In my limited testing it seems like 18 creatures is a nice number. The deck plays small ball with goyfs and bolts and puts out a more aggressive clock than Mav did though it doesn't seem to have the staying power of KOTR decks. Anyway, great primer, great deck, good for legacy and aggro, there is a new sheriff in town!
cheers
defector

Antonius
01-19-2013, 10:59 PM
Oh, and I forgot in the first post:

you didn't mention the funniest show and tell hate of all time, Confusion in the Ranks. JAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJA.

zulander
01-19-2013, 11:42 PM
I think Scavenging Ooze belongs in the main.

razvan
01-20-2013, 12:31 PM
Thanks all :)

As for the questions one by one:

AnTONYus :P

I tried heavy burn, including running the Punishing Fire strategy. It definitely helps if you are facing an aggro or control heavy meta. Unfortunately, it does not speed you up that much, Punishing Fire is slow. I have tested Searing Blaze (and even tribal flames with a random dual added). Searing Blaze was fairly sweet against stuff like Maverick, and this was before Shaman is everywhere. Not to mention it's ANOTHER weapon against BUG and RUG. So yes, I think I will have to retest this.

I did not test Cabal Therapy and persist/undying, I didn't even think of it. I will try testing it and put it in the primer. Strangleroot Geist alone is something that would be quite fun to try, I think it might be faster than Geralf's Messenger, although the latter helps by being black and not green, and works better with Liliana. It is better than Lingering Souls anyway in Jund.

As for combo, yes, I know, sometimes you just have to make sure you can win every non-combo match-up and just try to race combo. Actually, I think that having Cabal Therapy / Undying creatures (Finks might be too slow and only good vs. burn/goblins), might help things tremendously. Yes, it sucks on turn 20, but only having 4 and not 7... could be great.

I am speechless by confusing in the ranks. Absolutely speechless.

SaintS: Wasteland is crucial, and your mana sometimes can stumble, but so can anyone's. It is far better than most 3 color decks, because you play a lot of it. Zulander also suggested manlands, so that might be something I want to look into, but I don't think they help your clock at all, and the match-ups where they would help, those decks have wastelands (unless it's Miracles).

Treetop villages are probably the best, but they don't make black or red and are non-basic. Raging Ravines might be worth trying, but they are expensive to run.

lyracian: I love Baloth in any format it is legal. With the advent of BUG and Jund and the resurgence of discard and Liliana everywhere, they are very good. Otherwise, their slot could be filled by Kitchen Finks, although I don't think they perform as well. I was never sorry to have 3 in my SB, and never wished them to be anything else.

defector: I do not like Extirpate as much as Surgical Extraction. It requires you to keep a mana open, instead of spending it all every turn and try to race them. It's fine to play control against Combo, but without a clock, it is a losing proposition.

Also, a question for you and other Jund players: Jitte. Tell me more! Is it really that great?

Zulander, thanks for the PM. I will put up the changes, and you can also answer the question above, since you seem to like Jitte :).

I will add the Lingering Souls/Persist idea/Burn idea/Manlands to the primer soon.

RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
01-20-2013, 12:45 PM
Don't care about this deck, but wow this is an amazing primer. Well done!

SaintS
01-20-2013, 01:00 PM
Thanks all :)

As for the questions one by one:

AnTONYus :P

I tried heavy burn, including running the Punishing Fire strategy. It definitely helps if you are facing an aggro or control heavy meta. Unfortunately, it does not speed you up that much, Punishing Fire is slow. I have tested Searing Blaze (and even tribal flames with a random dual added). Searing Blaze was fairly sweet against stuff like Maverick, and this was before Shaman is everywhere. Not to mention it's ANOTHER weapon against BUG and RUG. So yes, I think I will have to retest this.

I did not test Cabal Therapy and persist/undying, I didn't even think of it. I will try testing it and put it in the primer. Strangleroot Geist alone is something that would be quite fun to try, I think it might be faster than Geralf's Messenger, although the latter helps by being black and not green, and works better with Liliana. It is better than Lingering Souls anyway in Jund.

As for combo, yes, I know, sometimes you just have to make sure you can win every non-combo match-up and just try to race combo. Actually, I think that having Cabal Therapy / Undying creatures (Finks might be too slow and only good vs. burn/goblins), might help things tremendously. Yes, it sucks on turn 20, but only having 4 and not 7... could be great.

I am speechless by confusing in the ranks. Absolutely speechless.

SaintS: Wasteland is crucial, and your mana sometimes can stumble, but so can anyone's. It is far better than most 3 color decks, because you play a lot of it. Zulander also suggested manlands, so that might be something I want to look into, but I don't think they help your clock at all, and the match-ups where they would help, those decks have wastelands (unless it's Miracles).

Treetop villages are probably the best, but they don't make black or red and are non-basic. Raging Ravines might be worth trying, but they are expensive to run.

lyracian: I love Baloth in any format it is legal. With the advent of BUG and Jund and the resurgence of discard and Liliana everywhere, they are very good. Otherwise, their slot could be filled by Kitchen Finks, although I don't think they perform as well. I was never sorry to have 3 in my SB, and never wished them to be anything else.

defector: I do not like Extirpate as much as Surgical Extraction. It requires you to keep a mana open, instead of spending it all every turn and try to race them. It's fine to play control against Combo, but without a clock, it is a losing proposition.

Also, a question for you and other Jund players: Jitte. Tell me more! Is it really that great?

Zulander, thanks for the PM. I will put up the changes, and you can also answer the question above, since you seem to like Jitte :).

I will add the Lingering Souls/Persist idea/Burn idea/Manlands to the primer soon.

Thanks for your answer. The version I'm going to test in less than an hour is a version with jite and manland MD, and I'll also try 4 wasteland and 2 jittes MD. I'll see the one i prefere.

Also, i forgot to comment but I like the idea of the cabal therapy. I will try it when i have a bit more of time.

defector
01-20-2013, 01:03 PM
@Razvan regarding the Surgical vs Extirpate debate. I don't think there is a correct answer and your point about leaving mana up is valid. I think if TES/Dredge are the combo decks of choice then Surgical is probably the way to go and if the meta shifts towards a High Tide/SnT driven format than Extirpate becomes better. I think High Tide is currently the best combo deck in legacy, but the candles kind of keep it under wraps. I'm going to play around with both as they are both great version of the same card. I'm leaning towards extirpate because the discard strategy seems to let you play it proactively instead of having to rely on it defensively. If dredge starts to rise and the speed of the format changes than in go the surgicals.

Antonius
01-20-2013, 02:38 PM
@Razvan:

I wouldn't play Punishing Fires, either. Way too mana inefficient for what you want to do, IMO. Chain Lightning is way better. Did you try playing an 8 bolt configuration like that? Have you gone as deep as hell's thunders or hellsparks? And yeah, Geist is definitely good. He plays really well with mass removal and could enable you to even play perish out of the board for the mirrors and elf matches. It's just hard to get over the size deficit he has with goyf. Squeezing him into a list with all the proven, conventional good stuff is difficult. Now, if you want to go hella deep and play more of a fast beatdown game with haste creatures and such, the aforementioned hell's thunders and hellsparks play really well with therapy. Maybe something like this?

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Hellspark Elemental
4 Strangleroot Geist
1 Hell's Thunder
3 Bloodbraid Elf

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Searing Blaze
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Sylvan Library

4 Wasteland
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
2 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Swamp

ehhh that's probably a little too goofy to be competitive but as long as we're just throwing lists around, why not?

razvan
01-20-2013, 04:12 PM
I wouldn't play Hell's Thunder and the like. Having just single-use direct damage that doesn't double as removal isn't really what Jund would need (I would think).

I definitely would like to put the 7 card package of 4 Geist, 3 Therapy, and find place for the 4th Therapy. Might not be good, but who knows... this way you can be the aggressor and still have backup. Maybe something like this:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Strangleroot Geist
3 Huntmaster of the Fells / Bloodbraid Elf
1 Scavenging Ooze

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Life from the Loam
1 Sylvan Library

24 Land

For searing Blaze, maybe cut the Life from the Loam and Scavenging Ooze. This way it's about as streamlined as possible?

Kyle
01-20-2013, 06:42 PM
This is the most detailed primer I've ever read. Great job razvan.

I've found great success running 4x Liliana. As you mentioned, unanswered T1 Thoughtseize/IoK, T2 Hymn, T3 Liliana is a good reason for your opponent to fold up their hand.

Also, running 4x Liliana wonderfully improves the chances of cascading off of BBE, which is another reason for your opponent to ragequit. The only thing I hate cascading into is Sylvan Library; such a waste, though Library is so awesome and necessary for this deck.

Legacy Jund works so well against 60% or more of the field that I've found it unnecessary to run Wastelands, not to mention they slow you down to get to a BBE. This deck is so mana hungry that Wasteland can impede your T1-T4 strategy. I saw a few lists that run Destructive Flow. Anyone have a lot of experience playing that way? I can see it being great in non-dual-heavy deck and plunked down on T2 after a T1 DrShaman, but is it worth it?

sdematt
01-21-2013, 01:04 AM
If you want a detailed primer, you should head over the Rock thread :P

Great job, Razvan. It was a good read for sure.

So, I've been pushing Punishing Fires, and it looks like the list that did well tonight had it. It makes sense with all the tokens running around lately.

RE: Flow, I think it's slow. A 3-mana do nothing for a while seems blah. You really have to build your deck around it, and cascading into it seems like garbage. I'm sure it could be a thing, but you'd really have to build around it.

-Matt

phoenix4
01-21-2013, 11:23 AM
I haven't read all the primers in here, yet, but agree with the people... This is an amazing primer!
By coincedence I discovered, that I had all the non-land cards for the deck, traded some excess cards for Badlands, Bayous and the Taigas, and I got to play two rounds at a 31 person tournament yesterday (Had to go to a birthday, but I was sad to drop from the tournament).

Round 1, I met ANT, what a bummer!! He duressed me, took my Thoughtseize, and made 14 goblins in the first game.
Game 2, I opened with a Thoughtseize, took his Duress, but he drew another, which he used to take my Duress, 2 turns go by, and he kills me..

Round 2, I met a Nic Fit deck, with a blue splash for Jace, TMS. And I have to say, the way I threw that deck of the table... on 4 turns, I cast 3x Bloodbraid Elves, first I casceded into a Hymn To Tourach, then a Lightning Bolt and finally I cascaded into a Dark Confidant - Needless to say, I owned that game. For sportsmanship reasons I gave him the victory though :)

Now, what I really love about this deck is how you play it. I've been playing Magic for almost to years now and while I have a pretty cool cardpool, with a lot of blue cards (Blue almost seems to be a necessity to play, these days), I always felt more happy and relaxed, when playing non-blue decks.

When I threw together this deck, and tested it a few times before the aforementioned tournament, I just got that feeling of sitting with a deck (Obviously) and feel the joy that comes, when you are happy, playing Magic.. :)

Now, that's a lot of what you could call bullshit, BUT:
I wanna play this deck, get good at playing it, and hopefully, make a comment or 2, that you can benefit from :)

BTW: Have any of you, concidered Chains of Mephistopheles? ;)

jin
01-21-2013, 11:26 AM
Great primer. Well done!

I've been reading the old thread and following a bit on this new thread, and I just don't understand the knock on Punishing Fires. If anything, it belongs in this deck. Punishing Fires is a natural problem for U-control decks. It's also a great removal for today's metagame. I cannot see Searing Blaze as a better card at all.

Maybe I'm playing the deck differently than you guys, because there is no way this deck is a sligh-ish deck. It's definitely more of a midrange Rock type deck. In this way, Punishing Fires works far better than Searing Blaze or Chain Lightning. Searing Blaze is certainly terrible in decks that play little to no creatures like UW Miracle. It is also more costly as it requires RR. Compared with cards like Chain Lightning, it is far better as red decks become more prevalent. I certainly would not want UWr Miracle, Tempo Thresh, Jund mirror, or Storm Combo to shoot my Chain Lightning back at my creatures. Decks that do not run Punishing Fires also tend to run Grim Lavamancers. This just doesn't seem great. More 1/1's that use graveyard? You are just opening yourself up to graveyard hate/large creature beat downs and running out of food for Deathrite Shaman.

I'm currently running a Punishing Fires list based off of a list posted in the old thread. I've found that Punishing Fires has add stability, consistency and aggressiveness to this deck. I've also tried Pat Cox's list but hated it. I felt the deck ran out of gas too quickly, and was generally not aggressive enough. Grim Lavamancer does not hurt more than Scavenging Ooze and Punishing Fires.

To those opposed to Punishing Fires, please explain why you hate it with some examples to support this. All I've heard is that it is slow, but fail to see in what way is it slow. For 2 mana, it's expensive for 2 damage, but it comes back casting fear in the eyes of decks that run too many weenies. Punishing Fires also improves the mirror match up as well as match ups against enemy decks that run Deathrite Shaman. Arguably, Grim Lavamancer does the same thing, but Grim Lavamancer has sommoning sickness and is vulnerable to Swords to Plowshare, effectively making it far slower than Punishing Fires. Grim Lavamancer is also not great in multiples and dies to your usual sweepers like Pernicious Deed, Rough/Tumble, Golgari Charm, Plague on Wizards/Humans, Terminus, etc. In this current metagame, Punishing Fires is just superior to Grim Lavamancer and have more value than Chain Lightning.

I'm also in strong opposition to Cabal Therapy in the main. You just look like a toolbag when you have to open with that first round, first game. Missing a crucial discard spell there is just not optimal. I propose a Duress/Thoughtseize Split. Duress because Abrupt Decay, Lightning Bolt and Punishing Fires will take care of any small critter that waltzes in. Inquisition seems redundant here.

For reference, my current list looks like this:

1x SDT
1x Sylvan Library

4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
2x Scavenging Ooze
3x Bloodbraid Elf

3x Liliana of the Veil

3x Hymn to Tourach
2x Thoughtseize
2x Duress

3x Abrupt Decay
3x Lightning Bolt
3x Punishing Fires

2x Wooded Foothills
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Bayou
2x Badlands
1x Taiga
1x Mountain
1x Swamp
1x Forest
3x Grove of the Burnwillows

Arsenal
01-21-2013, 11:37 AM
Concerning the Rock/GWB/Dark Horizons matchup, I suppose an important question should be asked; why play this instead of Rock? Aside from "Well, because I want to", if the Rock can do everything Jund can do, but better, why play Jund?

Kyle
01-21-2013, 11:49 AM
If you want a detailed primer, you should head over the Rock thread :P

Aw shush. I love Rock with all my heart. It's what I've been jamming the most other than BUG (before BUG got popular). I just like good primers. And yes Matt, yours is awesome.

I'm going to try the PFire route. I've been in love with that card since Punishing Maverick.

phoenix4
01-21-2013, 12:46 PM
Personally, I don't like the Punishing Fire combo....

I've never played it, so i may not be the right person to discuss this combo, but in my local meta, you rarely see it, simply because of faster decks and a lot of Surgicals :D

I'm thinking that this deck wants to "rape" the board, with creatures, specially Bloodbraid Elf, which can cascade into everything in the deck, making a board presence, like no other... But then again.... Maybe I'm thinking in Jund in many other ways, than you guys :D

Although I can imagine, that our local danish meta, isn't that different from your local meta's, I intend to keep you posted on our meta, hopefully to contribute a little to your chances of winning :)

sdematt
01-21-2013, 12:52 PM
Jund is "better" because you get a haste 3/2 2-for-1. While this is good sometimes, it's not good other times, which is why Junk and Jund jockey for position.

In all honesty, I think you want to be the control deck, not a Sligh deck. Just run good things and out-value other people with your BBE's and Hymns.

Chains is VERY good, but gets better when people start to shift back to the Visions builds of UW for the long game. Then you just slide a Chains under a ticking Visions and watch the opponent cry.

-Matt

phoenix4
01-21-2013, 12:56 PM
Jund is "better" because you get a haste 3/2 2-for-1. While this is good sometimes, it's not good other times, which is why Junk and Jund jockey for position.

In all honesty, I think you want to be the control deck, not a Sligh deck. Just run good things and out-value other people with your BBE's and Hymns.

Chains is VERY good, but gets better when people start to shift back to the Visions builds of UW for the long game. Then you just slide a Chains under a ticking Visions and watch the opponent cry.

-Matt

While I can't wait to watch a Visions player, cry like a little baby, I'm gonna try 2x Chains in the MB over the next couple of weeks :)
Turning Brainstorm into a "Discard-draw-discard-draw-discard-draw-put 2 on top" seems AWESOME ! :D

sdematt
01-21-2013, 01:00 PM
Just make sure if you have Chains down, you don't activate your Sylvan Library (unless you want to have a painful Careful Study).

-Matt

phoenix4
01-21-2013, 01:32 PM
Just make sure if you have Chains down, you don't activate your Sylvan Library (unless you want to have a painful Careful Study).

-Matt

Haha, yeah, that would suck, big time :D

What is the appropriate action, if you have Sylvan Library and Chains down, in your own upkeep: I go, directly to draw, not using Librarys ability?

Kyle
01-21-2013, 02:15 PM
Chains is awesome against Blue decks, but a nonbo with Dark Confidant...? Maybe worth it anyway.

sdematt
01-21-2013, 02:26 PM
Chains is awesome against Blue decks, but a nonbo with Dark Confidant...? Maybe worth it anyway.

Chains is EXCELLENT with Bob, since Chains doesn't trigger from Bob, since Bob doesn't draw cards, but puts them directly into your hand.

If you have Sylvan and Chains out, you choose not to trigger Sylvan Library, or just "miss" the trigger.

-Matt

Kyle
01-21-2013, 02:47 PM
Chains is EXCELLENT with Bob, since Chains doesn't trigger from Bob, since Bob doesn't draw cards, but puts them directly into your hand.

If you have Sylvan and Chains out, you choose not to trigger Sylvan Library, or just "miss" the trigger.

-Matt

Sweeeeet. I should read the cards I play with all the time more often. :tongue:

Mkr
01-21-2013, 03:23 PM
Awesome primer!

I disagree though regarding Miracles - no way this is a difficult matchup, especially if you're running Punishing Fire. I'd say Jund is even favored post-board, once you take out all your discard and replace them with something usable for a long game. Jund as a deck is well suited to a grindfest. The only thing you fear out of Miracles is an Entreat. Heck, probably the best game plan Miracles have against you is to rush an Entreat. All the other cards they have you have answers.

Now if you try to be faster... you are roadkill. :laugh:

phoenix4
01-21-2013, 04:17 PM
Any matchup can be difficult, drawing bad, making bad plays etc, etc ;)

From my point of view, I would say RUG Delver, but I'm not entirely sure..

Anyways, this is my current decklist, comments are welcome:

1x Wooded Foothills
3x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wasteland
1x Forest
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Bayou
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Mountain
1x Taiga
2x Badlands
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Swamp

3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Chains of Mephistopheles
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Liliana of the Veil
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Bloodbraid Elf
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sylvan Library

Maindeck that is - ;) - and so far, I'm looking forward to playing it. I feel that the discard suite of spells suits the deck really well, not taking to much damage from Thoughtseizes, and you gotta love Hymn - in my oppinion the best discard spell in the game.. I know that my deck is way off, from some other decklists I've seen so far, but I think that Chains, should be a part of the deck. The ability to make the opponents brainstorms and the like, a discard spell..... Wow :D

zulander
01-21-2013, 08:51 PM
The decks strengths are the blue based midrange decks, and postboard is excellent against UW imho. Being able to play cards with better value and draw more cards is what wins the games. 4 Bob, 2 Sylvan, 4 BBE, 1-2 Jitte, 2-3 Liliana help you control the midgame much better than other decks (although Jace is an all-star in the mid game). Add on top of that 2 for 1 disruption like Hymn and Pulse. These make it hard for decks to keep up.

The weaknesses are against straight aggro and blue based tempo decks. Being able to delver/mongoose/shaman, stifle, waste you is a great way to beat a mid-range non-brainstorm deck. I really love the deck but opt not to play in a meta where at least 30% of the field is RUG/BUG/URDelver. Their ponders/brianstorms -> daze are better than your libraries and confidants, and their wastes can cut you off of BB/RG fairly easily. Jund is much more dependent on a turn 1 Shaman than most other decks.

As for Jitte, I think it's too good to not play at least 1 of, and maybe even a second copy is worth it. I think it's better in the format currently than copies 3/4 of Liliana. It's more proactive, and dominates the board much easier, and can also be more difficult to answer.

zulander
01-21-2013, 08:58 PM
Any matchup can be difficult, drawing bad, making bad plays etc, etc ;)

From my point of view, I would say RUG Delver, but I'm not entirely sure..

Anyways, this is my current decklist, comments are welcome:

1x Wooded Foothills
3x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wasteland
1x Forest
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Bayou
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Mountain
1x Taiga
2x Badlands
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Swamp

3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Chains of Mephistopheles
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Liliana of the Veil
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Bloodbraid Elf
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sylvan Library

Maindeck that is - ;) - and so far, I'm looking forward to playing it. I feel that the discard suite of spells suits the deck really well, not taking to much damage from Thoughtseizes, and you gotta love Hymn - in my oppinion the best discard spell in the game.. I know that my deck is way off, from some other decklists I've seen so far, but I think that Chains, should be a part of the deck. The ability to make the opponents brainstorms and the like, a discard spell..... Wow :D

Here's the problem I have with Chains is that it helps a matchup that doesn't need help. It's best as a board card against Jace decks (and not as good as Sulfuric Vortex), and is a dud against many other decks. I'm not impressed by it, and imho is the definition of "win-more" in the deck. Also, I'm not a fan of IoK if you're not already running 4 thoughtseize. Sure they hit many of the same cards, but Thoughteize hits Jace, Tombstalker, BBE, Force, Ringleaders, and pretty much any other non-goyf win conditions that decks run. The 2 life is worth it.

jin
01-21-2013, 09:13 PM
Personally, I don't like the Punishing Fire combo....

I've never played it, so i may not be the right person to discuss this combo, but in my local meta, you rarely see it, simply because of faster decks and a lot of Surgicals :D

I'm thinking that this deck wants to "rape" the board, with creatures, specially Bloodbraid Elf, which can cascade into everything in the deck, making a board presence, like no other... But then again.... Maybe I'm thinking in Jund in many other ways, than you guys :D

Although I can imagine, that our local danish meta, isn't that different from your local meta's, I intend to keep you posted on our meta, hopefully to contribute a little to your chances of winning :)

Surgical extraction would affect any of your other removal much the same way, so I don't see how that is applicable to Punishing Fires. Actually, I think Punishing Fires would be advantageous against Surgical Extraction, because if they try to extract it, you can pay R and you fizzle their extraction, effectively netting you one card and 1 life (you give them one from Grove) and a wasted sideboard for RR. What a deal.

zulander
01-21-2013, 09:27 PM
Surgical extraction would affect any of your other removal much the same way, so I don't see how that is applicable to Punishing Fires. Actually, I think Punishing Fires would be advantageous against Surgical Extraction, because if they try to extract it, you can pay R and you fizzle their extraction, effectively netting you one card and 1 life (you give them one from Grove) and a wasted sideboard for RR. What a deal.

This is assuming you have 3 untapped lands, 1 of which is a grove. This is also assuming they wont surgical in response to your attempt to retrieve it. I'm not a huge fan of PFires in Jund as well. Paying 5 mana to kill a Nacatl, Ape etc is stupid imho. Sure it kills delvers, but so does every removal spell in the format.

jin
01-22-2013, 02:17 AM
This is assuming you have 3 untapped lands, 1 of which is a grove. This is also assuming they wont surgical in response to your attempt to retrieve it. I'm not a huge fan of PFires in Jund as well. Paying 5 mana to kill a Nacatl, Ape etc is stupid imho. Sure it kills delvers, but so does every removal spell in the format.

Three mana untapped is never an issue as Deathrite Shaman and a mana source is always untapped for me until the end of my opponent's turn. If they time the extraction, great, I lost 2 other cards that I might have drawn. If they did that to you, you'd have lost more Chain Lightnings.

Also, maybe I play in a different metagame than you, but Kird Apes and Wild Nacatls died with Zoo. I haven't seen them in like 6 months. If that's really a problem for you, then you may need to play Chain Lightnings. I also run Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay for if those creatures do in fact become a problem. The fact of the matter is Punishing Fires is recurring, making it must more scary for decks like Delver because they run limited amount of beaters that could all die to one card. That's card advantage they cannot deal with.

If they extract me in response with a second extraction, I'd be quite happy with that. Again, a 2 for 1.

ryn ball_2
01-22-2013, 05:12 AM
Surgical extraction would affect any of your other removal much the same way, so I don't see how that is applicable to Punishing Fires. Actually, I think Punishing Fires would be advantageous against Surgical Extraction, because if they try to extract it, you can pay R and you fizzle their extraction, effectively netting you one card and 1 life (you give them one from Grove) and a wasted sideboard for RR. What a deal.

I think it depends on the timing firing a surgical against P. fire, activation of a grove (for R) giving opponent 1 free life the P. fire triggers and opponent can response to that throwing a surgical extraction targeting the P. fire assuming you have 1 grove (w/c is already tap for R) the P. fire will be extracted, but if you have multiple groves on the field extracting P.fire will be difficult to your opponent. Btw if i'm free this coming saturday i will test grove/P.fire combo in a jund deck cuz my reasons are:
1) it can win against mirror matches
2) unlimited ammunition w/c is good against midrange decks (w/c is our local meta)
3) it can grind your opponent life points
4) it can grind planeswalker loyalty counters w/c i assume most of the jund MD cards doesnt interact against PW (decay only kills liliana as a 3cc PW).

On the build i'm still brainstorming about the whole composition.

Thanks!

jin
01-22-2013, 05:36 AM
I think it depends on the timing firing a surgical against P. fire, activation of a grove (for R) giving opponent 1 free life the P. fire triggers and opponent can response to that throwing a surgical extraction targeting the P. fire assuming you have 1 grove (w/c is already tap for R) the P. fire will be extracted, but if you have multiple groves on the field extracting P.fire will be difficult to your opponent. Btw if i'm free this coming saturday i will test grove/P.fire combo in a jund deck cuz my reasons are:
1) it can win against mirror matches
2) unlimited ammunition w/c is good against midrange decks (w/c is our local meta)
3) it can grind your opponent life points
4) it can grind planeswalker loyalty counters w/c i assume most of the jund MD cards doesnt interact against PW (decay only kills liliana as a 3cc PW).

On the build i'm still brainstorming about the whole composition.

Thanks!

Ok, I get it. So Surgical Extraction may be an issue, but it won't impact the game any differently than if they were to use Surgical Extraction Chain Lightnings, so I am still an advocate of Punishing Fires. You can also remove your Punishing Fires with Deathrite Shaman to save your future Punishing Fires from getting nuked, if you so choose to do it that way.

kingtk3
01-22-2013, 08:26 AM
...
Chains is VERY good, but gets better when people start to shift back to the Visions builds of UW for the long game. Then you just slide a Chains under a ticking Visions and watch the opponent cry.

-Matt

Be careful because ancestral vision targets a player, so chains are not that effective. It's biggest merit is to invalidate brainstorm and jace though.

Justin
01-22-2013, 09:24 AM
Be careful because ancestral vision targets a player, so chains are not that effective. It's biggest merit is to invalidate brainstorm and jace though.

I imagine that they would still target themselves, rather than the opponent. Discarding three off chains sucks, but if I resolved a Visions, I'd still rather discard three and draw three than target my opponent. Even though you don't get any card advantage, you can fix your hand by keeping your good cards and discarding your bad ones.

sdematt
01-22-2013, 11:06 AM
Be careful because ancestral vision targets a player, so chains are not that effective. It's biggest merit is to invalidate brainstorm and jace though.

While this is true, I'd take a 3-card Careful Study rather than them having extra cards, but your point is valid.

-Matt

razvan
01-22-2013, 12:11 PM
Jund is not better than Junk, which is why I was surprised that people suddenly considered Jund to be the best deck in Legacy.

White, unfortunately, does what red does, except better in almost all scenarios. They also have more permanent-based hate than red does.

So why play Jund over Junk?

As Matt said, Bloodbraid Elf is a hell of a drug. The more I play it, the more I like it. My next list is likely to have them in it.
Lightning Bolt and burn make you faster. This is relevant.
Pyroblast / REB are unparalleled in what they do, there is nothing white can bring that can counter a top-decked Show and Tell or any of the other combo cards. Discard is fine, but the presence of Brainstorm, Top, Jace and other cards make it a losing proposition.
In general, Jund is better against Planeswalkers too. BBE and Bolt and REB for Jace.
Swords to Plowshares are better against some creatures, but Lightning Bolt is just really good against more. Giving them life can be a problem. Swords is better against fringe decks.


You do have advantages. Just in a heads-up match, you are not favored, because your advantages won't matter and theirs do. They win goyf wars more too.

sdematt
01-22-2013, 01:33 PM
I think you have to remember the differences and where they matter. In the Jund-Junk mirror, the red makes you worse, but in the general meta, I think red has a bit of an edge at the moment just due to Blasts (in my opinion, yes BBE is good, but the real reason I've always like BGR, even back with Survival, was because you have instant speed interaction with blue).

Just really depends on your meta.

-Matt

sdematt
01-22-2013, 02:29 PM
Have you guys considered Slaughter Games in the board to help fight Jace decks, Combo, etc.? Card seems REALLY good for what this deck wants to do. If you remove their Entreats, what do you actually fear?

-Matt

zulander
01-22-2013, 04:58 PM
Have you guys considered Slaughter Games in the board to help fight Jace decks, Combo, etc.? Card seems REALLY good for what this deck wants to do. If you remove their Entreats, what do you actually fear?

-Matt

Many of them are now opting for Helm combo, which just seems better since they don't need to tap a lot of mana to win the game. I think the card is okay at best, not sure that you're going to live to see 4 mana against combo (which usually play discard btw). Against combo I prefer to board in 3 duress/thoughtseize and 3 surgicals in addition to the 4 Hymn already in the deck. You need proactive answers that cost 1-2 mana and free reactive spells against their decks.

Against Jace decks you have better cards to kill their Jaces (lavamancer, creatures, reb, etc). The cards you need to board in against jace decks are cards that beat their white cards, not blue ones. Sulfuric Vortex, Krosan Grip, Ancient Grudge, Sulfur Elemental, Lavamancer etc are ways to devastate them, not Slaughter Games imho.

My current board looks like this:

2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Duress (could also be Thoughtseize)
2 Maelstrom Pulse (could also be Engineered Plague or Go for the Throat/Terminate)
2 Krosan Grip


Against UW Blade I bring in: 3 Duress, 3 Vortex, 2 Grip

Against UW Miracles I bring in: 3 Duress, 3 Vortex, 2 Pulse or 2 Extraction

Against BUG I bring in 2 Pulse

Against Dredge I bring in 2 Crypt, 3 Surgical, 2 Pulse

Against combo: 3 Duress, 3 Surgical

Rug is difficult because the preboard is already pretty good (I run 4 bolt, 4 Decay and 3 Chain Lightning). I think I could see replacing a Chain or two for Surgicals to remove the creatures I kill (they're a very threat light deck).

defector
01-22-2013, 07:47 PM
For Matt: Isn't Jund the aggro version of Junk, or is Junk the control deck version of Jund? I get so CONFUSED:) the only thing i know for sure is that both are soft to combo decks. I like slaughter games and its costed fine for the deck, im just not sure the meta is concentrated enough for it to really shine. I bought playset anyway because when that day. comes im going to be a happy guy. I am still really undecided about the correct board.
In general im still waiting for the meta to settle out before finaluzing on a build/board. My gut feeling is that gatecrash wont impact legacy, so we should have a few months of calm to tune and optimize.

Morte
01-23-2013, 06:34 AM
From the strategic point of view, the main advantage of Jund over Junk (i.e. of red over white) is the better capability to remove small creatures.
Secondly, red removals are not dead against creatureless decks and, very important, postboard you gain REB against blue which is huge.

Therefore, which one is better between Junk and Jund greatly depends on the meta, and there isnít one more aggro or controllish than the other one, I see both as midrange aggro-control decks.

Personally, Iím not choosing between Jund and Junk, but between Jund and Team America.

In my meta tribal is very common Ė in a tournament you always face more than one between Goblin, Merfolks and Elves. Then you have the usual combination of the main tiers, with not so many combo.

I already play TA with Dark Confidant and no FoW or Tombstalker, because often card advantage is what makes the difference. TA has no efficient removals besides Abrupt Decay Ė and when Maverick or D&T lands a Mirran Crusader, maybe equipped, you stop to lough.

I initially became interested in Jund, when it was not yet so popular, because I was looking for a Shaman+Decay deck playing both Dark Confidant and the Punishing Fire combo, and Jund proved to be a very good catch.

I can understand that meta can be different and for some of you Punishing Fire could be suboptimal, but for me it absolutely one of the main reason to prefer Jund over Junk (or over TA, but thatís totally another story).

Donít forget, also, that Punishing Fire has a good synergy with Liliana as well, by virtually nullifying the discard effect from your side.

Keep in mind that when discussing about the inclusion of the card, the main question to guide your conclusion is what matchup it is going to improve and what matchups it is going to worsen (if it would improve all it would be a no brainer inclusion, ofc).

With Punishing Fire, you improve tempo (RUG, TA), control i.e. planeswalkers (Miracle, BUG, Stoneblade also for Lingering Souls), tribal (Goblins, Merfolks, Elves) and midrange (Maverick, Junk, Jund as well). 90% of the field for me, gaining positive or even matchup against any of these. Enough for me to consider Jund as the best tier.

For my specific meta, I chose to weaken my combo matchup to improve the rest. Combo for me is not so common and it is not a very good matchup for us anyway. I totally cut Hymn from the main to make room for more removals and card filtering. Iím still working on the sideboard and for sure Iíll go to reinforce discard postboard against combo.

I also don't play Wastelands. Same line of logic as other people explained in the thread. This deck is midrange. Itís slow and mana hungry. Itís not tempo. You donít have non-mana ways to play cards like Goblins or Merfolks do, nor you have their potential explosiveness, nor you have Knight of the Reliquary like Junk or Maverick for land shenanigans.

In the end, this is the list Iím testing atm:


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Scavenging Ooze

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

2 Sylvan Library

4 Liliana of the Veil

1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Grove of the Burnwillows


Iím currently maximizing PF also because I want to deeply understand how do they work, I want to ask "would I prefer this to be something else" as much as possible Ė probably Iíll go down to 3 in the end.

Iím maximizing Liliana as well and I'm totally sold on that, she's THAT good, not dead in multiples, very synergic with PF both for discard and for the extra protection for Lilly, granted by recurring removals.

I totally love the double Sylvan Library, this deck requires a bit of filtering and it is a great complement to Dark Confidant. Iím also considering a split of one Library and one Senseiís Divining Top.

defector
01-23-2013, 08:14 PM
I havent played around with punishing fires yet, I'm still pretty on the fence with it. I dont know that its manageable on 20 lands, that looks tough. I love 2 sylvan main and 4 lilli. I think those are the aces in the deck along with bbe. Esp sylvan X2 i ran that in mav and just loved it. I like the lilli+p fire synergy, not sold on it, but it looks really good. Good luck in testing!

sdematt
01-23-2013, 09:07 PM
I havent played around with punishing fires yet, I'm still pretty on the fence with it. I dont know that its manageable on 20 lands, that looks tough. I love 2 sylvan main and 4 lilli. I think those are the aces in the deck along with bbe. Esp sylvan X2 i ran that in mav and just loved it. I like the lilli+p fire synergy, not sold on it, but it looks really good. Good luck in testing!

In all honesty, one of the only reasons to run this deck is PFire (the other being BBE). The card is way more than a 2-for-1. In colours that don't produce many X-for-1's, Punishing Fires gives you a ton of value against the field. I was testing the deck so I know how to play against it, and Fires is really good. I'm running 3, and so far so good.

-Matt

LEH
01-24-2013, 07:00 AM
PF is definitely a strong reason to run Jund imo, it's got synergy with the deck and is really strong against numerous current decks. In regards to 4x Lilly though, is 4 really working for you? I found running 4 I'd often get bad Cascades of Lilly when a lilly was already in play. I'm down to 3 and haven't looked back, it seems to flow better. Running 2 Sylvan is the way to go imo.

crow_mw
01-24-2013, 07:52 AM
I do wonder however and perhaps someone can enlighten me - why no of the decks that got placed high in GP Denver run Punishing Fire? Those list were very thoughtfully prepared, by experienced players, and their authors did anticipate high number of matchups in which p.fire is great. GP Denver was the tipping point between Jund being ok deck with some good placing and suddenly being considered tier 1 deck.

Admiral_Arzar
01-24-2013, 09:33 AM
I do wonder however and perhaps someone can enlighten me - why no of the decks that got placed high in GP Denver run Punishing Fire? Those list were very thoughtfully prepared, by experienced players, and their authors did anticipate high number of matchups in which p.fire is great. GP Denver was the tipping point between Jund being ok deck with some good placing and suddenly being considered tier 1 deck.

That's because Punishing Fire isn't really as good as all the fapping in this thread would seem to indicate. Sure, it's good, but it obviously isn't necessary to win - the question that will have to be answered is does it make the deck better, and I'm on the fence about that right now.

ivanpei
01-24-2013, 09:34 AM
Punishing fire is really slow and the curve on this deck is really tight. Gas usually isn't a problem for jund as it has many ways of generating gas. Tempo and speed is more important for this deck. I'm also liking 2 grims, they fill the 1cc slot and have been really strong in the same matchups that punishing is good at. Grim may conflict with deathrite at times, but usually its pretty OK. I think this deck is currently the best midrange in legacy. It's better imo than mav or junk because of bloodbraid. Before deathrite and abrupt decay, jund nt have the ideal acceleration/answers which it now has.

The red splash is primarily for bloodbraid and imo it should be a 4 off. It puts jund over the top in the midrange mirror as well as against control. It's one of the few mid range decks that can beat uw control handily as well as rug and. Other midrange decks. This decks only bad matchup is combo and after board and bringing in pyros and duresses, even combo isn't thatbhard. This is really the elephant in the room right now.

defector
01-24-2013, 10:55 AM
@Matt: I'll give it a test with P Fires. I want 4 wasteland and not sure how that works with the Grove engine, but anyway, the deck is finishing well with and without it, only time will tell:) Maybe wasteland isn't as relevant now that RUG has declined a bit. Need to get some rounds in with some of the different flavors.

Antonius
01-24-2013, 11:22 AM
Grim Lavamancer dies to removal. Yes, that sucks but often it doesn't matter because the CA he generates can put your opponent in a position where they will either lose to Lavamancer or Bob and they only have one abrupt decay in hand. Lavamancer breaks open the deathrite mirror.

zulander
01-24-2013, 03:16 PM
In all honesty, one of the only reasons to run this deck is PFire (the other being BBE). The card is way more than a 2-for-1. In colours that don't produce many X-for-1's, Punishing Fires gives you a ton of value against the field.

This simply isn't true. The deck already has at least 15-20 other 2 for 1's. BBE, Hymn, Lavamancer, Confidant, Jitte, Liliana (they may not initially be 2 for 1 but over time are, like PFires).

I don't simply dislike PFires, I actually hate it gives off the impression that it's good when it's really just terrible, and worse than Chain Lightning. If you're already running 4 Bolt, 4 Chain, 4 Lavamancer, then maybe it's okay to run PFires. It's a combo that dies to wasteland and Shaman, both of which are really good right now. It's also dead when you board in your best control board card Sulfuric Vortex. Nothing beats control (other than Jace) like Vortex does.





With Punishing Fire, you improve tempo (RUG, TA)



Are you playing against terrible players? PFires may look good against those decks on paper but in reality just ends up getting boarded out. 2 mana against those decks is a lot, and trying to activate a cute 3 mana recurring shock is even worse when they have wasteland, stifle, spell pierce, spell snare, daze, goyfs, mongoose, shaman, or tombstalkers on the board. Great you get to kill delver, congratulations?





I need everyone to pay attention: Jund is NOT an aggro-control deck. It inherently a Midrange Aggro deck. It has some disruptive elements (as does every deck), but it plans to kill your opponent asap. That is the difference between Jund and Junk. Junk = aggro control, jund = midrange aggro.

They may seem like semantics, but the difference lies in where you position yourself. You are not the control deck against most opponents, you are the aggressor. Neglecting this fact will result in more misplays, boarding answers, and losses than any card selection will. As a midrange aggro deck, PFires sucks. It doesn't do what you want from a 2 mana spell, and sure as hell doesn't do what you want a 5 mana spell would (assuming you're recurring it).

If you want to play an aggro-control deck then by all means do so, just realize that it's going to be worse at its role than Junk will.

Morte
01-24-2013, 05:49 PM
Guys please try to be rational, everybody can have his personal preference about a card but this is a DTB thread now, weíre supposed to talk about evidences, not about our private emotions.

Punishing Fire IS good. It made result in Maverick, where Gorve of the Burnwillows is partially out of colors, it made result in Jund where it is perfectly in colors.

Letís replay to someone asking for evidences.


I do wonder however and perhaps someone can enlighten me - why no of the decks that got placed high in GP Denver run Punishing Fire? Those list were very thoughtfully prepared, by experienced players, and their authors did anticipate high number of matchups in which p.fire is great. GP Denver was the tipping point between Jund being ok deck with some good placing and suddenly being considered tier 1 deck.

The following list ranked 4th at 212 players StarCityGames Legacy Open Ė Dallas, on 20/01/2013 (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10013&iddeck=72983):



Deck Name: Jund
Position: 4


Jund
Sang Jung
Sideboard


Creatures [16]
4 Bloodbraid Elf (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Bloodbraid%20Elf)
4 Dark Confidant (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Dark%20Confidant)
4 Deathrite Shaman (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Deathrite%20Shaman)
4 Tarmogoyf (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Tarmogoyf)

Instants [9]
3 Abrupt Decay (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Abrupt%20Decay)
3 Lightning Bolt (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Lightning%20Bolt)
3 Punishing Fire (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Punishing%20Fire)

Sorceries [6]
2 Hymn to Tourach (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Hymn%20to%20Tourach)
4 Thoughtseize (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Thoughtseize)

Enchantments [1]
1 Sylvan Library (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Sylvan%20Library)
Planeswalkers [4]
4 Liliana of the Veil (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Liliana%20of%20the%20Veil)

Lands [24]
1 Forest (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Forest)
1 Mountain (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Mountain)
1 Swamp (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Swamp)
1 Taiga (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Taiga)
2 Bayou (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Bayou)
3 Badlands (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Badlands)
3 Wooded Foothills (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Wooded%20Foothills)
4 Bloodstained Mire (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Bloodstained%20Mire)
4 Grove of the Burnwillows (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Grove%20of%20the%20Burnwillows)
4 Verdant Catacombs (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Verdant%20Catacombs)
1 Nihil Spellbomb (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Nihil%20Spellbomb)
1 Abrupt Decay (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Abrupt%20Decay)
1 Ancient Grudge (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Ancient%20Grudge)
3 Mindbreak Trap (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Mindbreak%20Trap)
1 Punishing Fire (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Punishing%20Fire)
1 Pyroblast (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Pyroblast)
2 Red Elemental Blast (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Red%20Elemental%20Blast)
1 Umezawa's Jitte (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Umezawa's%20Jitte)
3 Duress (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Duress)
1 Maelstrom Pulse (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Maelstrom%20Pulse)


Send Tournament Report (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/send.php?id=10013&iddeck=72983&it=report)
60 Cards
15 Cards




I suppose this list was actually "very thoughtfully prepared, by experienced players, and their authors did anticipate high number of matchups in which p.fire is great".

It's not a long time that Jund proved to be so strong in Legacy, the competitive players too need time to assess what is the best shape of a deck (a result NOT CARVED IN STONE, I repeat, but meta dependent).

Please note the fourth PF in sideboard. I suppose this guy was quite convinced of the power of PF, and T8ing a 212 event is not always just luck.

Now on zulander.


Are you playing against terrible players? PFires may look good against those decks (RUG, TA) on paper but in reality just ends up getting boarded out. 2 mana against those decks is a lot, and trying to activate a cute 3 mana recurring shock is even worse when they have wasteland, stifle, spell pierce, spell snare, daze, goyfs, mongoose, shaman, or tombstalkers on the board. Great you get to kill delver, congratulations?

Ehm... Thank you, your congratulations are welcome :smile:

No offense, but this is emotion, not logic. It seems youíre talking about the tempo matchup without having any practical knowledge of it. Come on, if you canít assemble two mana against a deck you wonít go anywhere in any case with a relatively high curve as Jund.
Instead, and consider a tempo player is speaking, tempo wins if it is able to compromise the balance of the game in its favor during the early game. If it fails Ė i.e. if you can contain its early assault of Delver & friends Ė and the game goes longer, then they have no chance.

They need resources to stop PF. Generally speaking, any plan in Magic can be stopped in some way, this is not a criterion to assess its consistence. You should ask, "what happens if my plan fails?", for example about card advantage. They counter PF? Ok, almost all spells in Magic can be countered. But PF, unlike Lavamancer, can return from the graveyard. And it doesnít care of a sudden Terminus, itís an alternative useful angle of attack.

They waste your Grove? Ok, no combo for you. PF is just a shock for two mana. Still a versatile removal, not very efficient, but in practice almost equivalent to Lightning Bolt, in that almost all the staples that die to Bolt have 1 or 2 toughness anyway. But, unlike Bolt, if later you draw another GroveÖ

Tombstalker. Seriously? None of the cards you are pushing in place of PF can remove him. Iíll tell you a story. I was playing against TA. He landed a stalker. But Destiny wanted I was able to remove all his other little cuties with my removal engineÖ Then, when my Liliana asked for a sacrifice to her beauty, my oppo could do nothing else than say goodbye to his beloved demon.
Ok now Iím having fun, but you got the point, PF is somewhat useful also here.

Youíre talking of the PF+Grove combo as if our plan was strictly relying on that, which is wrong. Itís not Show and Tell or Painterís Servant. PF and Grove are useful by themselves, even if you donít assemble or use the combo, so theyíre not a huge investment in terms of deck design. THEN, if you succeed in assembling the combo when itís useful (high percentage of the meta) go nuts. But no way it is a problem if they stop it.

I hope to be of help in the general understanding of PF. This is not a religious war. I can understand that a shift in the general consensus about our favorite deck can cause some kind of fear or anger, but please try to stay on topic. This is a DTB thread, we all expect objective criticism for a competitive support to the deck development.

zulander
01-24-2013, 06:23 PM
Guys please try to be rational, everybody can have his personal preference about a card but this is a DTB thread now, weíre supposed to talk about evidences, not about our private emotions.

Punishing Fire IS good. It made result in Maverick, where Gorve of the Burnwillows is partially out of colors, it made result in Jund where it is perfectly in colors.

Letís replay to someone asking for evidences.



The following list ranked 4th at 212 players StarCityGames Legacy Open Ė Dallas, on 20/01/2013 (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10013&iddeck=72983):



Deck Name: Jund
Position: 4


Jund
Sang Jung
Sideboard


Creatures [16]
4 Bloodbraid Elf (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Bloodbraid%20Elf)
4 Dark Confidant (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Dark%20Confidant)
4 Deathrite Shaman (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Deathrite%20Shaman)
4 Tarmogoyf (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Tarmogoyf)

Instants [9]
3 Abrupt Decay (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Abrupt%20Decay)
3 Lightning Bolt (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Lightning%20Bolt)
3 Punishing Fire (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Punishing%20Fire)

Sorceries [6]
2 Hymn to Tourach (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Hymn%20to%20Tourach)
4 Thoughtseize (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Thoughtseize)

Enchantments [1]
1 Sylvan Library (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Sylvan%20Library)
Planeswalkers [4]
4 Liliana of the Veil (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Liliana%20of%20the%20Veil)

Lands [24]
1 Forest (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Forest)
1 Mountain (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Mountain)
1 Swamp (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Swamp)
1 Taiga (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Taiga)
2 Bayou (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Bayou)
3 Badlands (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Badlands)
3 Wooded Foothills (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Wooded%20Foothills)
4 Bloodstained Mire (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Bloodstained%20Mire)
4 Grove of the Burnwillows (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Grove%20of%20the%20Burnwillows)
4 Verdant Catacombs (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Verdant%20Catacombs)
1 Nihil Spellbomb (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Nihil%20Spellbomb)
1 Abrupt Decay (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Abrupt%20Decay)
1 Ancient Grudge (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Ancient%20Grudge)
3 Mindbreak Trap (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Mindbreak%20Trap)
1 Punishing Fire (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Punishing%20Fire)
1 Pyroblast (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Pyroblast)
2 Red Elemental Blast (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Red%20Elemental%20Blast)
1 Umezawa's Jitte (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Umezawa's%20Jitte)
3 Duress (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Duress)
1 Maelstrom Pulse (http://magiccards.info/autocard.php?card=Maelstrom%20Pulse)


Send Tournament Report (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/send.php?id=10013&iddeck=72983&it=report)
60 Cards
15 Cards




I suppose this list was actually "very thoughtfully prepared, by experienced players, and their authors did anticipate high number of matchups in which p.fire is great".

It's not a long time that Jund proved to be so strong in Legacy, the competitive players too need time to assess what is the best shape of a deck (a result NOT CARVED IN STONE, I repeat, but meta dependent).

Please note the fourth PF in sideboard. I suppose this guy was quite convinced of the power of PF, and T8ing a 212 event is not always just luck.

Now on zulander.



Ehm, thank you, your congratulations are welcome :smile:

No offense, but this is emotion, not logic. It seems youíre talking about the tempo matchup without having any practical knowledge of it. Come on, if you canít assemble two mana against a deck you wonít go anywhere in any case with a relatively high curve as Jund.
Instead, and consider a tempo player is speaking, tempo wins if it is able to compromise the balance of the game in its favor during the early game. If it fails Ė i.e. if you can contain its early assault of Delver & friends Ė and the game goes longer, then they have no chance.

They need resources to stop PF. Generally speaking, any plan in Magic can be stopped in some way, this is not a criterion to assess its consistence. You should ask, "what happens if my plan fails?", for example about card advantage. They counter PF? Ok, almost all spells in Magic can be countered. But PF, unlike Lavamancer, can return from the graveyard. And it doesnít care of a sudden Terminus, itís an alternative useful angle of attack.

They waste your Grove? Ok, no combo for you. PF is just a shock for two mana. Still a versatile removal, not very efficient, but in practice almost equivalent to Lightning Bolt, in that almost all the staples that die to Bolt have 1 or 2 toughness anyway. But, unlike Bolt, if later you draw another GroveÖ

Tombstalker. Seriously? None of the cards you are pushing in place of PF can remove him. Iíll tell you a story. I was playing against TA. He landed a stalker. But Destiny wanted I was able to remove all his other little cuties with my removal engineÖ Then, when my Liliana asked for a sacrifice to her beauty, my oppo could choose nothing else than remove his sweet demon.
Ok now Iím having fun, but you got the point, PF is somewhat useful also here.

Youíre talking of the PF+Grove combo as if our plan was strictly relying on that, which is wrong. Itís not Show and Tell or Painterís Servant. PF and Grove are useful by themselves, even if you donít assemble or use the combo, so theyíre not a huge investment in terms of deck design. THEN, if you succeed in assembling the combo when itís useful (high percentage of the meta) go nuts. But no way it is a problem if they stop it.

I hope to be of help in the general understanding of PF. This is not a religious war. I can understand that a shift in the general consensus about our favorite deck can cause some kind of fear or anger, but please try to stay on topic. This is a DTB thread, we all expect objective criticism for a competitive support to the deck development.

My point isn't that "PFires can be disrupted, it's not good" rather its that "PFires can easily be disrupted, leaving you with suboptimal 'combo' pieces remaining in your deck". I listed BUG/rug examples f disruption because someone said PFires was good against them and I tried to refute this assertion with some of the 20+ cards that easily disrupt the combo.

I don't see a problem with having strong reservations for a suboptimal combo as being "emotional". You're going to have to live with my opinionated personality just like I live with people playing PFires lol ;)

Lastly, you can choose to be result oriented, I'm not so sure that's the best way to prepare for Magic though. No doubt people have won games because of PFires, it's just that it will be less than optimal in more games than beneficial.

Morte
01-24-2013, 06:56 PM
Lastly, you can choose to be result oriented, I'm not so sure that's the best way to prepare for Magic though.

They call it Science. It's quite good if you're not talking about metaphysics, and in a card game weíre totally in the world of math, statistics and variation.

You are still not getting my point. You should ARGUE your statements. In my previous replay I proved you that your arguments were weak. You CAN state that a card choice is suboptimal or whatever, but youíre of no help for anybody if you donít bring any VALID argumentation and/or experimental data (testing or success in large events).

Not to be totally out of topic, regarding your point "PFires can easily be disrupted, leaving you with suboptimal 'combo' pieces remaining in your deck", I think I widely answered earlier.


They need resources to stop PF. Generally speaking, any plan in Magic can be stopped in some way, this is not a criterion to assess its consistence. You should ask, "what happens if my plan fails?", for example about card advantage. They counter PF? Ok, almost all spells in Magic can be countered. But PF, unlike Lavamancer, can return from the graveyard. And it doesnít care of a sudden Terminus, itís an alternative useful angle of attack.

They waste your Grove? Ok, no combo for you. PF is just a shock for two mana. Still a versatile removal, not very efficient, but in practice almost equivalent to Lightning Bolt, in that almost all the staples that die to Bolt have 1 or 2 toughness anyway. But, unlike Bolt, if later you draw another GroveÖ

(Ö)

PF and Grove are useful by themselves, even if you donít assemble or use the combo, so theyíre not a huge investment in terms of deck design. THEN, if you succeed in assembling the combo when itís useful (high percentage of the meta) go nuts.

zulander
01-24-2013, 09:06 PM
They call it Science. It's quite good if you're not talking about metaphysics, and in a card game weíre totally in the world of math, statistics and variation.
You are still not getting my point. You should ARGUE your statements. In my previous replay I proved you that your arguments were weak. You CAN state that a card choice is suboptimal or whatever, but youíre of no help for anybody if you donít bring any VALID argumentation and/or experimental data (testing or success in large events).


I would if there was published data for the overall tournament. Just because a deck places in top 8 does not mean that it did well that day. I have been told that SCG isn't publishing their data anymore though which means we have to rely on theory and personal experiences. In my experiences (multiple tournaments against good players) PFires sucked. You listed one deck list that did well, all you proved is that pilot performed well, not the deck. I hope you understand my arguments.



Not to be totally out of topic, regarding your point "PFires can easily be disrupted, leaving you with suboptimal 'combo' pieces remaining in your deck", I think I widely answered earlier.

You did, but I find your answer to be an insufficient reason to run the combo.

ivanpei
01-24-2013, 09:07 PM
Punishing fires is a strong card in decks that need the extra gas or reach. Also it is extremely mana intensive and strains the manabase. Jund fits the grove colours but the main colour of this deck is black so grove has to eat some wasteland slots. A grinding mirror oriented jund may benefit from fires/grove but in general, it is too easily disrupted and puts too much of a strain on the manabase /manacurve (too many 2 drops in this deck) to be optimal.

That's my 2 cents.

Final Fortune
01-25-2013, 01:34 AM
Punishing fires is a strong card in decks that need the extra gas or reach. Also it is extremely mana intensive and strains the manabase. Jund fits the grove colours but the main colour of this deck is black so grove has to eat some wasteland slots. A grinding mirror oriented jund may benefit from fires/grove but in general, it is too easily disrupted and puts too much of a strain on the manabase /manacurve (too many 2 drops in this deck) to be optimal.

That's my 2 cents.

Agreed, it's more a question of whether or not you want to play with Grove of the Burnwillows and Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek or Wasteland and Hymn to Tourach, the Punishing Fires slot may as well be Chain Lightning for all it matters - Umezawa's Jitte is the card you want against aggro anyway.

zulander
01-25-2013, 01:45 AM
Umezawa's Jitte is the card you want against aggro anyway.

Yes. The second best game breaking card once active - second only to Jace. Just added it back to my list, don't know why I took it out before.

Sasan
01-25-2013, 04:57 AM
I ask in the Jund thread as I know that you are the experts:

Is there a way RUG Delver can beat Jund or have a fair chance? And if yes, with which hate cards in the MD and SB? Thanks in advance for your replies ;-)

ivanpei
01-25-2013, 05:27 AM
I ask in the Jund thread as I know that you are the experts:

Is there a way RUG Delver can beat Jund or have a fair chance? And if yes, with which hate cards in the MD and SB? Thanks in advance for your replies ;-)

I would suggest switching to straight u/r delver with a ton of burn. Rug fundamentally is too slow to kill jund before the card advantage engine starts rolling. Also jund is notoriously weak to burn like most mid range decks are.

Sasan
01-25-2013, 05:57 AM
Thanks but that was not an answer to my question :) UR Delver is not a good deck in my opinion. It is perhaps good vs Jund and BUG, but is also weak to many other decks.

ykpon
01-25-2013, 06:57 AM
I ask in the Jund thread as I know that you are the experts:

Is there a way RUG Delver can beat Jund or have a fair chance? And if yes, with which hate cards in the MD and SB? Thanks in advance for your replies ;-)

Manascrew him, it's probably the only real way to win. Stifle, Wasteland, Life from the Loam.

sdematt
01-25-2013, 09:24 AM
Manascrew him, it's probably the only real way to win. Stifle, Wasteland, Life from the Loam.

Or Price of Progress, Sulfuric Vortex, etc.

-Matt

Legacy
01-25-2013, 09:30 AM
Is anyone else worried about Leyline of Sanctity from Sneak and Show's SB?
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=52541

razvan
01-25-2013, 01:10 PM
Leyline is a problem, yes. There really isn't much you can do against that unfortunately, the solutions we have, Krosan Grip and Maelstrom Pulse can be very slow. Best case scenario, you cast one on turn 2, but they will go off on turn 3. If they are on the play, it literally is impossible to stop that. You can only hope to both have a Liliana and to kill their Leyline so you can kill their creature. Notice that a turn 2 Liliana is preferable, because if they drop Griselbrand, they might be able to FoW your Liliana on turn 3, but they cannot FoW your Krosan Grip.

Not a pleasant situation.

As for Punishing Fire, here's the problem.

First, it's terrible against combo. So is a lot of this deck, so that might not be a reason, but it's absolutely terrible in general. 3 mana to do 1 damage is not exciting. In a match-up where you want to race them quickly as your only chance of winning, you don't want to durdle around with this at all. Chain Lightning is much better.

It does give you inevitability against control of sorts, because you are able to punch through their counterspells, but it is STILL slow. You do counter Jace pretty good, and that's a BIG plus for it, but you can't reliably claim it is a win condition because they will draw into their condititions. It is best against control, yes.

Against aggro, well, it might be worth trying, but it's bad against RUG with all their cheap distruption. Also, it relies upon a card you cannot fetch, so sometimes all you get is 2 damage for 2 mana. I once was worried about how bad Grove is without Punishing Fires, and that holds true still.

It's not the most atrocious card, no, but I don't know if it's good enough. In Aggro Loam, it was a consideration, especially in lists running 4 Chalice of the Void. That's a different Jund branch.

mishima_kazuya
01-25-2013, 04:50 PM
http://www.twitch.tv/mishimakaz

Streaming lots of Legacy Jund tonight at 6 PM EST. MOCS preliminaries tomorrow at 9 AM EST.

:D

Dzra
01-25-2013, 05:24 PM
PFire is good against decks with x/1-2 creatures or Goyf. It is also good against Planeswalkers. And unless the Heavens align against you, it is much more likely that your PFire will screw their Deathrite than the other way around. If you want more game against any of these things, then cut the Grims and a Bolt and add in Punishing Fire. To be honest I'm not sure where you'd rather increase your MU %s because there's no way combo is getting any better pre-board. (PS Grim Lavamancer is much too slow against Elves)

Final Fortune
01-25-2013, 05:34 PM
As for Punishing Fire, here's the problem.

First, it's terrible against combo. So is a lot of this deck, so that might not be a reason, but it's absolutely terrible in general. 3 mana to do 1 damage is not exciting. In a match-up where you want to race them quickly as your only chance of winning, you don't want to durdle around with this at all. Chain Lightning is much better.



It's doubly bad vs combo because you cut Wastelands, I don't think people appreciate how much that card improves fringe match ups in this deck.

mishima_kazuya
01-25-2013, 09:55 PM
Won a Magic-League trial and 4-0'ed a Legacy Daily Event with a list similar to the GP Denver lists.

You can catch the replays on my stream channel on twitchtv.

ivanpei
01-25-2013, 11:32 PM
Is anyone else worried about Leyline of Sanctity from Sneak and Show's SB?
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=52541

Play more Pyros. I'm seeing alot of 3/3 Pyro/Duress split in the board but I believe a 4/2 split is more optimal. A bunch of discard does nothing againt a leyline while Pyros can knock down intuitions and show and tells. However a leyline is still harsh in any case and chances of winning against a leyline is really low. Once they have it up, it takes you 3 mana to remove it with Grip/Pulse AND you have to cast all the discard in your hand. Sneakshow can go off much earlier than this. Your best hope is to play more pyros instead of discard and hope to slow their hand down with pyro/rebs.

ryn ball_2
01-26-2013, 10:15 AM
Hello jund players!, I tested the punishing build in our local shop and end up 3-2. For quick reference here's my build

4 deathrite shaman
4 tarmogoyf
4 dark confidant
4 bloodbraid elf

4 inquisition of kozilek
4 hymn to tourach

4 lightning bolt
4 abrupt decay
3 punishing fire

2 liliana of the veil
1 sylvan library

4 verdant catacombs
4 grove of the burnwillows
4 marsh flats
3 bayou
2 badlands
2 swamp
1 forest
1 mountain
1 taiga

//sideboard

3 kitchen finks
3 surgical extraction
3 slaughter games
2 pernicious deed
2 engineered plague
1 life from the loam

Matches
R1 vs reanimator: 1-2, stuck to one land on game 3 but i have resolved 1 tormod's crypt and 1 surgical extraction on hand unfortunately he show and tell for griselbrand and i can't beat that!

R2 vs MBC: 2-1, punishing fire is good here killing most of his creatures gatekeeper, nantuko, nighthawk to name a few and his own liliana.

R3 vs UB mill: 2-1, disruption plus slaughter games on his key cards and it's game.

R4 vs RDW: 2-1, early punishing fire killed his guides and followed by tarmo as a wall and deathrite ate his GY.

R5 vs jund: 0-2, wasteland knocked me, and stuck on 1 land continuously drawing spells but no land and i can't recover on that, same as game 2

Notes: i only run 22 lands and i suffer the prize sometimes having good spells at opening 7 but having 1 hand on it. Punishing fire is good maybe for future plans i will remove some spells to up the land count to 23 or 24, another plan is to test the normal build of jund and weight it's impact.

Thanks!

klaus
01-26-2013, 10:27 AM
Why Slaughter Games over Extirpate?
With all the discard E. should be better against Combo turn 3/4 VS. turn 2 makes a difference.
Same for all other opposing CMC 4 bombs. If they go first and we don't get a Shaman start they just ignore S. G. and just play their threat, however BS in response to discard can be an issue.

ryn ball_2
01-26-2013, 10:53 AM
Why Slaughter Games over Extirpate?
With all the discard E. should be better against Combo turn 3/4 VS. turn 2 makes a difference.
Same for all other opposing CMC 4 bombs. If they go first and we don't get a Shaman start they just ignore S. G. and just play their threat, however BS in response to discard can be an issue.

Atm i have surgical on my 75 that can act as an extirpate, plus slaughter games can be shattering against controls decks, naming jace the mindsculptor against miracles can be backbreaking and also entreat the angels. Against combo decks we cant wait to show up on our thoughtseizes/duress/IOK cards that combo decks abusing, and also we can't wait to afford to see cards of a combo deck on his/her GY to be extirpated. So i think we can proactively remove their significant combo pcs just an added option to slow them down.
On the grind side i haven't test my 75 against a combo deck, so i can't make conclusions about my current 75 against it. Only my hypothesis.

mishima_kazuya
01-26-2013, 08:25 PM
0-2ed the first MOCS preliminary (locked in at 6 rounds of Swiss) with the list I streamed Friday night. I lost to belcher round 1 and MUD round 2.

The next preliminary, I changed the SB by adding Leyline of Sanctity to combat the MTGO combo metagame.

// Lands
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [B] Badlands
3 [B] Bayou
1 [B] Taiga
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [CHK] Mountain (3)
1 [PT] Forest (3)
1 [US] Swamp (2)
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
3 [ARB] Bloodbraid Elf
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [TO] Grim Lavamancer

// Spells
1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
3 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
1 [LG] Sylvan Library
3 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 2 [UL] Engineered Plague

Round 1: Standard Bant control
He was trying to mise free Force of Will promos. Obviously I won.
1-0 in matches

Round 2: UR Omnishow
Mulliganed into a resonable 6 card hand without hand disruption. I lost to a turn 2 Griselbrand.
The next game I made a terrible mulligan (Pyroblast, Goyf, Goyf, Bloodbraid, 3 lands of three colors was first hand). I mulliganed into lands, Deathrite Shaman and Liliana. My initial reasoning was that I needed to mulligan into hand disruption. But the 6 card seemed good because I could turn 2 a Liliana if he goes for Emrakul. He turn 1'ed a Show and Tell into Omniscience and I got ROFLStomped.
1-1 in matches

Round 3: Mono-Red Painter
I opened with a Thoughtseize for his Blood Moon on the play. My hand was full of removal, so he never got a chance to combo off.
I thought about sideing in Leylines, but I did not. My plan was to fetch basics and just kill all his Painters. He comboed off turn 2 with double Ancient Tomb.
On game 3 he resolved a Blood Moon, but I had the Bolt for his painter. At a certain point the only creature I had was Deathrite Shaman with only one land in all graveyards, there was an Ancient Grudge in my graveyard, and all lands were Mountains, and he was on topdeck with a Grindstone in play. I drew a Bloodbraid Elf and tanked. If I tap to cast my Bloodbraid Elf, I won't have access to green mana to flashback Ancient Grudge. But If I don't pressure him with bloodbraid elf, he can just overwhelm my limited resources by just drawing Imperial recruiters and Painters. I chose to cast Bloodbraid, flipped an Abrupt Decay for his Blood Moon and I cruised my way to victory.
2-1 in matches

Round 4: UW Aggressive Stoneblade
His list was real weird. Typical cards like Jace, StP, Crucible of the Worlds, Wasteland. But he was also maindecking Geist of Saint Traft and Stifle.
He Mulliganed to 5 on the draw, while I kept my 7. My early disruption got what was left of his hand and he got ran over by Goyfs.
I don't quite remember the details for game 2. But I remember I got some Thoughtseizes going and some uncontested Goyfs ran him over.
3-1 Matches

Round 5: UW Miracles
I won game 1 as he ran out of answers to my threats.
On game 2 he sided in Rest in Peace which turned out to be pretty good when I drew 2 Goyfs and a LIfe from the Loam I should have never sided in. At a certain point, I decided to not play my 4th land before I casted my Abrupt Decay targeting his Rest in Peace. My reasoning was that hiding information from him might make him misplay. I then proceeded to get blown out by a Divert that sent the Decay to my Tarmogoyf. That last Tarmogoyf turned out to be important as I was one threat short of killing him before he assembled Entreat the Angels.
Game 3 got very exciting when he went through 2 Fetchlands and a Brainstorm with his top before he finally found a Terminus for my Bloodbraid, Dark Confidant, and Tarmogoyf. He made the mistake of getting greedy and not using Terminus on his turn. As a result I got an extra Dark Confidant trigger. He eventually stablized by Detention Sphering my last threat (Tarmogoyf), assembling a Counter balance and SDT. I topdecked an Abrupt Decay when he was at 4 life. On his next turn he tapped out to play Jace TMS, leaving Polluted Delta untapped. I casted my Decay at the end of his turn to get my Goyf back to finish his last 4 life points off when his random card off Top was not Swords to plowshares or Terminus.
4-1 in matches.

Round 6: RUG Delver
I mulliganed game 1 on the play into 5 lands and Grim Lavamancer in the dark. I drew pretty well after that, but unfortunately his last card was Nimble Mongoose and I could not draw a Liliana, Goyf or Bloodbraid.
Game 2, I might have made some poor sequencing errors(playing around the Stifle I saw from Thoughtseize incorrectly). After some trading, his last card was a Delver of Secrets and no lands. I drew all lands and died with my next cards being Bolt and Bloodbraid. If I had played against his Stifle more aggressively, I could have avoided 3 extra damage and had more time to draw an answer for his Delver.
4-2 in matches; not q'ed for MOCS season finals, but I got another Force of Will promo for efforts.

Unfortunately I made a dumb mistake of not checking my QPs before the season ended. I thought I had 45 (15 QPs needed to play each preliminary). I only had 44 and I was thus unable to play a 3rd MOCS preliminary. :(

Also half my SB was useless as I never sided in Plagues or Leylines in the 2nd MOCS preliminary.

BlackStarDeceiver
01-27-2013, 04:02 PM
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Sylvan Library
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Bloodstained Mire
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Duress


Went 5-0-1 today for 1st/47 at a monthly local.

R1 2-1 against Goblins

G1: He runs me over with perfect topdecks after my few disruption spells in the early game.
G2: Plague + Jitte
G3: T2 and T4 Plague

R2 2-1 against Pun Nic Fit

G1: mull to Seize Seize Seize Waste Fetch Fetch (kept, i was on the play and he usually plays Reanimator/Combo), got man-handled by Thrun quickly.
G2: Fast beats with double Hymn into double BBE into Confi/Goof
G3: see G2

R3 2-0 against Shardless BUG

Both games were pretty brutal and fast, i could handle his DRS directly and had double Goof followed by double Goof in G2.

R4 2-0 against BUG Delver

DRS into Goof + Seize into Hymn + Bob was all she wrote.
G2 i started with triple Wasteland as he had no plays into Loam + Goof Goof Lilly Lilly

R5 2-1 against Junk

Some nice rounds, where both games i won were decided mostly on getting down the first Deahtrite and keeping him alive.
Lavamancers did some serious work here, as did triple Confidant on beatdown while flipping multiple Wastelands.

R6 ID against Maverick for 1st, i was the only 5-0 and he was fine with the draw.

sdematt
01-28-2013, 12:48 PM
Yeah, the Junk match is all about, "Who can keep DRS alive and working?" Congrats on the finish by the way!

-Matt

razvan
01-28-2013, 02:03 PM
Anyone have any opinions on today's modern announcement? They banned Bloodbraid Elf in modern. I realize it does not affect this deck in a whole different format, but still...

And no, I am not trying to roundabout suggest it might get banned in Legacy, and Jund would be fine without it anyway. Just... strange.

Anyway, ncie job, Blackstar.

Barbed Blightning
01-28-2013, 02:14 PM
Anyone have any opinions on today's modern announcement? They banned Bloodbraid Elf in modern. I realize it does not affect this deck in a whole different format, but still...

And no, I am not trying to roundabout suggest it might get banned in Legacy, and Jund would be fine without it anyway. Just... strange.

Anyway, ncie job, Blackstar.

More proof that the DCI has no clue what it's doing with that format? Honestly, it's just degenerating into a bunch of sealed and "I made a steamflogger boss/rigger tribal deck, guys!" decks. Also, all the more reason to play Legacy. :cool:

defector
01-28-2013, 09:11 PM
The future of eternal formats wont have any good cards in it to play, oh well long live legacy:)) I think the only take away from the bannings in modern is that it will be cheaper to buy bbe for legacy:)

ivanpei
01-29-2013, 01:32 AM
Jund is by far the best deck in modern, dominating gp's, ptqs etc. Something in the deck had to be banned especially after decay and deathrite. Modern imo is a terribly boring format due to all the bannings. Long live legacy!

BlackStarDeceiver
01-29-2013, 02:26 AM
Jund is by far the best deck in modern, dominating gp's, ptqs etc. Something in the deck had to be banned especially after decay and deathrite. Modern imo is a terribly boring format due to all the bannings. Long live legacy!



Modern is competitive Casual kitchen table magic....

kingtk3
01-29-2013, 10:16 AM
Jund is by far the best deck in modern, dominating gp's, ptqs etc. Something in the deck had to be banned especially after decay and deathrite. ...

I don't know modern very well, but I think this is more a trend of the moment: wizards has printed 2 powerful cards, everyone wants to play them and jund is clearly an obvious choice. Internet doesn't help too, since many deck are stock lists.
I don't mean that Jund is not strong, because it is, but that the success of the deck is also motivated by the great number of players.

I don't agree on the banning though, because I don't think that

BBE is really such a scary threat that needs banning. I mean, there are clearly more powerful creatures out there that can still be played, and this brings me to the next point
the meta is unable to adapt to Jund. For example, when goyf an kotr were bigger threats people started playing ooze because, while solid on its own, was also a deterrent for opponent's creature. If BBE was so scary people could have started playing aethersworn canonist for example, negating the cascade. Or wizards could have unbanned some control tool to balance the meta.

BBE is not mental mistep which warped the legacy meta one and half a year ago...


Modern imo is a terribly boring format due to all the bannings. Long live legacy!

+9000!!!!

wcm8
01-29-2013, 11:36 AM
Modern is even more of an arbitrarily devised format than Vintage/Legacy, except that it completely lacks efficient control elements like FoW, Daze or Wasteland. These cards keep the 'derpitude' to a minimum and balance out the formats even in the face of mistakes like Jitte or Show and Tell. Without these and strong sideboard options, it's impossible for an Eternal format to self-regulate. WotC can either re/introduce cards like these, or Modern will continue to be a midrange slugfest, with any truly dominating strategy eventually receiving the banhammer.

In any case Legacy Jund can now claim that many of its cards are ban-worthy :D

swarmofseals
01-31-2013, 02:41 PM
I'm having a hard time understanding how the RUG Delver matchup is so favorable. I've only played a few matches but so far I felt like I had no chance at any point. Basically if I try to play a threat in the first two or three turns it gets either bolted or dazed. Then they play a delver which flips immediately and they start wastelanding you. If you try to play a creature it gets removed, and if you try to play a spell it gets spell pierced.

Basically it feels like everything that they do is cheaper than what you are trying to do, and they see way more cards than you do due to brainstorm and ponder.

razvan
01-31-2013, 05:12 PM
That was my original thought too. I was playing against RUG with 4 Chain Lightning and 2-3 Snapcasters, and I was getting owned.

But they cut down on both of those, and instead of 8 duals and 6 fetches, they are playing 6/8 now. All in all, making our wastelands a ridiculously good card.

Furthermore, they really have no answer to Abrupt Decay on their Tarmogoyfs, nor are they running anything that can rival Abrupt Decay.

Their best chance is to ride a turn 1 delver to victory, and delay you with all their stuff. If they do not have a turn 1 delver, whatever they do is usually irrelevant, especially since everything you do is attrition them down. Just don't panic, and if you can trade, do it.

If they are chaining ponders and brainstorms, it's ok, it gives you a chance to really hurt them with a wasteland. It also slows them down enough to allow you to get a Liliana, Hymn, or a 4-drop. Your Inquisitions are pretty good too, cheap answer to everything they have that is relevant. Inquisitions are not as great because of the -2 life, but if they get a Goyf or a Mongoose, it will save you trouble later on.

Barbed Blightning
01-31-2013, 06:10 PM
Funny Durdling Around (http://manadeprived.com/wp-content/uploads/da_020113.jpg) comic. Relevant? I think yes.

aznepyon7
01-31-2013, 07:08 PM
That was my original thought too. I was playing against RUG with 4 Chain Lightning and 2-3 Snapcasters, and I was getting owned.

But they cut down on both of those, and instead of 8 duals and 6 fetches, they are playing 6/8 now. All in all, making our wastelands a ridiculously good card.

Furthermore, they really have no answer to Abrupt Decay on their Tarmogoyfs, nor are they running anything that can rival Abrupt Decay.

Their best chance is to ride a turn 1 delver to victory, and delay you with all their stuff. If they do not have a turn 1 delver, whatever they do is usually irrelevant, especially since everything you do is attrition them down. Just don't panic, and if you can trade, do it.

If they are chaining ponders and brainstorms, it's ok, it gives you a chance to really hurt them with a wasteland. It also slows them down enough to allow you to get a Liliana, Hymn, or a 4-drop. Your Inquisitions are pretty good too, cheap answer to everything they have that is relevant. Inquisitions are not as great because of the -2 life, but if they get a Goyf or a Mongoose, it will save you trouble later on.

I think you mean thoughtseize for the -2 life. I agree with wasteland being really good in this scenario. You think that they will run Divert?

swarmofseals
01-31-2013, 07:52 PM
I think you mean thoughtseize for the -2 life. I agree with wasteland being really good in this scenario. You think that they will run Divert?

I dunno about divert but most RUG decks that I have seen recently are running stifle either maindeck or in the side. I'm finding their stifles + wastelands + cheaper/free spells to be very difficult to deal with =/

Barbed Blightning
01-31-2013, 08:37 PM
I dunno about divert but most RUG decks that I have seen recently are running stifle either maindeck or in the side. I'm finding their stifles + wastelands + cheaper/free spells to be very difficult to deal with =/

That's more of needing to work on that particular matchup. Playing around Stifle/Wasteland is required for all legacy decks, practically. Same goes for daze.

Much of beating RUG is proper mulliganing and fetching for basics at the right moment. The deck cannot afford to sandbag fetches just to stifle yours throughout the first few turns. Always fetch in response to a fetch; or, in response to a cantrip if there isnt another blue source in play.

I would also say that you typically stabilize around 9 life. With that in mind, keep a cool head and trade with/remove dudes whenever you can. Your threat density is high and full of powerhouses; theirs is low and totally conditional.

Final Fortune
01-31-2013, 11:30 PM
Yeah, the Junk match is all about, "Who can keep DRS alive and working?" Congrats on the finish by the way!

-Matt

Slightly off topic, but what do you think about the threat density of the deck vs the format and the mirror/Junk match ups specifically, I've been doubting whether or not the Deathrite Shaman, Dark Confident, Tarmogoyf and Bloodbraid package is really enough clock for the deck vs the grindier match ups in the format.

I really want something that can trump a Tarmogoyf on the board at around 3cc that doesn't rely on the graveyard, but nothing comes to mind in Jund colors.

zulander
02-01-2013, 01:07 AM
I really want something that can trump a Tarmogoyf on the board at around 3cc that doesn't rely on the graveyard, but nothing comes to mind in Jund colors.

Nothing comes to mind in the format (other than Knight, and not so much anymore and is GY reliant). I feel your pain. I tried playing a Jund-Zoo list with Kird Apes in some of the discard slots to help make the deck faster, but it wasn't so good. I'll still test a few other options (maybe Huntmaster of the Fells) but that's just too many 4CMC in the deck. I think the answer lies in playing 1-2 jitte main to help win these matchups. That's what I've resorted to. Also, ashes to ashes in the board is hilarious against other aggro decks and BUG. It's a complete wrecking ball to them. I love hitting a Tombstalker and Goyf with it. Makes me all warm and fuzzy =)

sdematt
02-01-2013, 01:47 AM
Slightly off topic, but what do you think about the threat density of the deck vs the format and the mirror/Junk match ups specifically, I've been doubting whether or not the Deathrite Shaman, Dark Confident, Tarmogoyf and Bloodbraid package is really enough clock for the deck vs the grindier match ups in the format.

I really want something that can trump a Tarmogoyf on the board at around 3cc that doesn't rely on the graveyard, but nothing comes to mind in Jund colors.

The only card that does that is Liliana. There is no creature at 3 mana that trumps Goyf, excluding Troll Ascetic.

-Matt

Final Fortune
02-01-2013, 02:27 AM
The only card that does that is Liliana. There is no creature at 3 mana that trumps Goyf, excluding Troll Ascetic.

-Matt

Yeah but maybe something that fights Goyf to a standstill is good enough, Troll Ascetic and River Boa are pretty reasonably costed, as well as Thrun, The Last Troll. It may be a bit of a stretch, but Dreadbridge Goliath might be good, generic fat or maybe something more old school like Flametongue Kavu would work.

I just feel short on cards that turn side ways, *shrug.*

James
02-01-2013, 04:23 AM
I'm personally a huge fan of Vampire Nighthawk at 3CC.

You already need the double black for Liliana or Hymn, his lifegain is really helpful against life losses from Dark Confidant or Sylvan Library. 2 flying damages + 2 lifes gained is almost a clock. It is difficult to race you when you have an active Nighthawk. Finally, the deathtouch ability is relevant in most match-ups, it completely stops lingering tokens or creatures like Griselbrand and in the worst scenario is a 1vs1 against cards like Vendilion or Delver...

Kitchen Finks is another good 3CC although it is never a clock but the lifegain is once again really usefull for extra card advantage (which means extra threads) via Confidant or Sylvan.

Barbed Blightning
02-01-2013, 11:23 AM
I've been testing Eternal Witness as a one-of, and she's been fucking bonkers. She may not win Goyf in combat, but she'll fetch back an Abrupt Decay to make everything all better. I'd definitely suggest her.

razvan
02-01-2013, 12:15 PM
I think that if you want more threats, it's to make yourself faster, not to be better in creature stand-ofs. Although I suppose that more creatures is the way to go in the Jund/Junk mirror.

The problem is that you still cannot weaken yourself to other match-ups, and Nighthawk and Witness do that. If you wish to make Jund slower, which is a fine idea, I wouldn't use BBEs. They don't do much in a slow control match-up, they are more of an aggressive route. Use Huntmasters, Kitchen Finks, Nighthawks and the like, and more removal. You still have a decent clock if you need to against combo (Goyfs and Bobs and burn), but you are better at grinding.

swarmofseals
02-01-2013, 12:40 PM
I've been tinkering with Jund a bit on MTGO and have started to wonder about both Burning Wish and Pithing Needle. Have any of you tried a wish package? There are a number of soceries that spring to mind that are situationally amazing:

Life from the Loam
Maelstrom Pulse
Pyroclasm/Nausea/Cave-In/Massacre
Seeds of Innocence/Pulverize/Shatterstorm/Shattering Spree
Hull Breach
Chain Lightning/Innocent Blood/Chainer's Edict
Wurm Harvest


Those are the ones that spring to mind, and some of them might not be very good. I've done a little bit of testing running 2-3 burning wish main with a SB package of Life from the Loam, Maelstrom Pulse, Nausea, Massacre, Seeds of Innocence, Chain Lightning, Hull Breach.

The downside is loss of tempo while the upside is more consistent access to potentially game saving or game ending effects.

Have any of you guys tried this? If so how did it go?


As far as Needle goes, I'm wondering it it might be a decent metagame call to shut down planeswalkers, Helm of Obedience, Sneak Attack, Belcher, and possibly some equipment. Thoughts?

aznepyon7
02-01-2013, 01:51 PM
I've been tinkering with Jund a bit on MTGO and have started to wonder about both Burning Wish and Pithing Needle. Have any of you tried a wish package? There are a number of soceries that spring to mind that are situationally amazing:

Life from the Loam
Maelstrom Pulse
Pyroclasm/Nausea/Cave-In/Massacre
Seeds of Innocence/Pulverize/Shatterstorm/Shattering Spree
Hull Breach
Chain Lightning/Innocent Blood/Chainer's Edict
Wurm Harvest


Those are the ones that spring to mind, and some of them might not be very good. I've done a little bit of testing running 2-3 burning wish main with a SB package of Life from the Loam, Maelstrom Pulse, Nausea, Massacre, Seeds of Innocence, Chain Lightning, Hull Breach.

The downside is loss of tempo while the upside is more consistent access to potentially game saving or game ending effects.

Have any of you guys tried this? If so how did it go?


As far as Needle goes, I'm wondering it it might be a decent metagame call to shut down planeswalkers, Helm of Obedience, Sneak Attack, Belcher, and possibly some equipment. Thoughts?

I'm not sure about the burning wish package. What do you plan on taking out? It's kind of clunky and we don't have a way to search for it like how TA can. It's just an extra turn to play something that we could have just maindecked. Besides I know Jund is great at attrition but that doesn't mean I want to go late game against Tundra decks. And against what decks do we plan on toolboxing against?

Maybe copy what TA does and add a sinkhole package. Apparently that's the rage now and pretty much what TA does during 2nd/3rd match against all slower decks.

crow_mw
02-01-2013, 03:19 PM
I think there are currently many decks that there is nothing to really wish for against. So ok, against S&T you might get a win off wish for innocent blood, against Maverick you can wish for Massacre and you always get that random win against Enchantress with Reverent Silence or against lands with Loam. But what do you wish for against Canadian *****? What do you wish for against TA? Against Miracles? Against Blade control (maybe artifact removal is viable option)? What about mirrors? Not only is it hard to resolve wish against most of current field but also those decks are not really susceptible to taking massive damage from resolved wish and in that case you will usually wish it was another Abrupt Decay or something among that way...

Barbed Blightning
02-01-2013, 03:28 PM
I'm not sure about the burning wish package. What do you plan on taking out? It's kind of clunky and we don't have a way to search for it like how TA can. It's just an extra turn to play something that we could have just maindecked. Besides I know Jund is great at attrition but that doesn't mean I want to go late game against Tundra decks. And against what decks do we plan on toolboxing against?

Maybe copy what TA does and add a sinkhole package. Apparently that's the rage now and pretty much what TA does during 2nd/3rd match against all slower decks.

The only issue with the Sinkhole package in Jund is that Team America already has game vs. combo because of their counters (lighter for more aggro plans, but nevertheless there) and discard. Jund only has discard, maybe Pyroblast for S&T, but certainly no FoW or Spell Pierce. Sinkhole could be the nuts, but I feel like we're better with a loam package (if not already in the main), since it allows us to mana screw and protect our colors.

That said, I praise Team America for keeping Miracles shut out in the cold with Sinkhole. :laugh:

swarmofseals
02-01-2013, 03:54 PM
I think there are currently many decks that there is nothing to really wish for against. So ok, against S&T you might get a win off wish for innocent blood, against Maverick you can wish for Massacre and you always get that random win against Enchantress with Reverent Silence or against lands with Loam. But what do you wish for against Canadian *****? What do you wish for against TA? Against Miracles? Against Blade control (maybe artifact removal is viable option)? What about mirrors? Not only is it hard to resolve wish against most of current field but also those decks are not really susceptible to taking massive damage from resolved wish and in that case you will usually wish it was another Abrupt Decay or something among that way...

I think against RUG you probably end up either getting chain lightning, innocent blood, or life from the loam depending on your board position. Against Miracles it depends on the version -- you might get Maelstrom Pulse or Hull Breach against angel tokens/Jace/Rest in Peace. Against Esper Stoneblade or UW Stoneblade you'd probably end up getting artifact removal of some sort or possibly massacre. In none of these situations is the wish likely to actually win you the game, but it's not really a dead card either.

The main reason why I had this idea is that a lot of Jund lists run something like one maindeck copy of Maelstrom Pulse and one maindeck copy of Life from the Loam. If you replace these two with Burning Wish you increase the access to both cards while also opening up some other possibilities, mainly at the cost of sideboard space and some tempo.

aznepyon7
02-01-2013, 10:20 PM
The only issue with the Sinkhole package in Jund is that Team America already has game vs. combo because of their counters (lighter for more aggro plans, but nevertheless there) and discard. Jund only has discard, maybe Pyroblast for S&T, but certainly no FoW or Spell Pierce. Sinkhole could be the nuts, but I feel like we're better with a loam package (if not already in the main), since it allows us to mana screw and protect our colors.

That said, I praise Team America for keeping Miracles shut out in the cold with Sinkhole. :laugh:

As you stated, Sinkhole mostly for the UW/x MU. Otherwise the outcome will depend upon whether or not Confidant doesn't bite the dust. Keep them from getting the 4 lands with our disruption package and we should be ok.

sdematt
02-01-2013, 11:34 PM
The only issue with the Sinkhole package in Jund is that Team America already has game vs. combo because of their counters (lighter for more aggro plans, but nevertheless there) and discard. Jund only has discard, maybe Pyroblast for S&T, but certainly no FoW or Spell Pierce. Sinkhole could be the nuts, but I feel like we're better with a loam package (if not already in the main), since it allows us to mana screw and protect our colors.

That said, I praise Team America for keeping Miracles shut out in the cold with Sinkhole. :laugh:

Sinkhole mucks Esperblade, not so much Miracles itself. Miracles has a hard time against Jund, but Sinkholes allow BUg to crush Esper.

-Matt

aznepyon7
02-02-2013, 12:28 AM
Sinkhole mucks Esperblade, not so much Miracles itself. Miracles has a hard time against Jund, but Sinkholes allow BUg to crush Esper.

-Matt

I was under the impression that Jund has quite a bit of difficulty against Miracles?

sdematt
02-02-2013, 12:46 AM
No, it's not that bad at all. It gets ridiculously good if you run Pithing Needle and/or Slaughter Games out of the side.

-Matt

Final Fortune
02-02-2013, 03:10 AM
Sinkhole mucks Esperblade, not so much Miracles itself. Miracles has a hard time against Jund, but Sinkholes allow BUg to crush Esper.

-Matt

As far as Jund is conerned, why would we play Sinkhole instead of Choke? Or are you guys thinking of using it in addition to Choke?

aznepyon7
02-02-2013, 10:22 AM
As far as Jund is conerned, why would we play Sinkhole instead of Choke? Or are you guys thinking of using it in addition to Choke?

Abrupt Decay.

swarmofseals
02-02-2013, 10:50 AM
That's more of needing to work on that particular matchup. Playing around Stifle/Wasteland is required for all legacy decks, practically. Same goes for daze.

Much of beating RUG is proper mulliganing and fetching for basics at the right moment. The deck cannot afford to sandbag fetches just to stifle yours throughout the first few turns. Always fetch in response to a fetch; or, in response to a cantrip if there isnt another blue source in play.

I would also say that you typically stabilize around 9 life. With that in mind, keep a cool head and trade with/remove dudes whenever you can. Your threat density is high and full of powerhouses; theirs is low and totally conditional.


I just want to say that this advice is huge. I played a bit more against RUG and took a very different philosophy. Rather than trying to get even or ahead on the early turns I just assumed I would win the mid to lategame if I got there. I generally fetched much more strategically to play around maindeck stifle and it worked out pretty well. I did get stifled once or twice when I tried to waste something or fetch, but never in a critical situation. I always played around daze and spell pierce when I could -- for example I had a hand with two goyfs and just passed turn 2 rather than playing one into a daze. It really worked. Abrupt Decay let me catch up to his early starts and when I refused to let him counter my key cards he just folded.

Parcher
02-02-2013, 11:05 AM
That said, I praise Team America for keeping Miracles shut out in the cold with Sinkhole. :laugh:

To be completely accurate; it is the combination of Decay, Sinkhole, and especially Grip that lets TA beat Miracles. They still have enough spot removal post-board to slow down your clock, if they have Top. They run enough lands, basics mainly, that they can use that time to recover, and use their basically unbeatable late-game cards(Jace, Terminus, Entreat) if they have Top. TA can't often Daze Top, and Forcing it is often a lose-lose situation. Even if you still have Force against Miracles post-board. Decay takes care of CB if you can't counter it. And it also stops RiP/Field shennanigans if you're fortunate to find someone still running that. But it is the ability to remove Top, which everyone knows is the key to the deck, and possibly Helm, since RiP is still a justified inclusion without Energy Field, that allows all the rest of TA's disruption to remain relevant.

BlackStarDeceiver
02-02-2013, 12:41 PM
Went 4-1 today for 5/26 (bad ties) and got myself a nice litts foil Batterskull for my troubles and 10Ä ;)

R1 1-2 against Canadian

G3 was pretty rough, he mulled to six with me on the play and my t1 Seize revealed Volc Volc Trop Waste Snare Delver so i took the Delver, he then topdecked Mungo into Brainstorm into double Mungoose and Delver. I lost with 3 Bolts and 2 Decay in hand as i wastn able to find a Goof on time.

R2 2-1 against Pun Zoo
I messed up game 1 as i miscounted his mana and my life somehow (Ooze got me midcombat)
G2 He never found a second land and G3 he never found anything after double Bolt on Hierarchs and double waste on his 2 lands.

R3 2-0 against ANT

G1 he wast able to get to 5 mana t1 otp so i could discard Ad Nauseam with Seize and followed up with double waste into Hymn Bloodbraid into Deathrite and he wasn't able to recover on time.
G2 he somehow brainfarted, i mulled to Land Land Land Nihil Spellbomb and he forgot that i could activate is without using black mana, so i could nuke the yard in response to PiF.

R4 2-1 against High Tide

G1 Seize, Hymn, Seize+Confidant into BBE into Hymn
G2 i Lost after a mull to 5 keeping Blast Blast Hymn DRS Badlands because he had double Force on my Hymn into Hightide/Timespiral

G3 was quite harsh, he went to six while i saw my first land at 3 cards in hand -> kept Bayou Duress BBE
The Duress took Timespiral and revealed 4 Lands and Cunning Wish. I then proceded to topdeck Land into Seize into Land into Hymn into Land for BBE into Bolt to get him exactly before he coul storm me out. Phew.

R5 2-1 agianst Belcher

G1 he went Probe Probe and passed because he lacked 1 mana and drew the Taiga in his Grip so Land Grant was dead. I got the Seize for ETW and he never gets into the game while i curve out perfect.
G2 He makes 2 Goblins T1 and i had to Topdeck Deathrite after my mull to five to get there with Engineered Plague, i did not.
G3 I open with T1 Duress picking Bwish while he kept Land Grant, SSG, Tinder Wall x2 and Rite of Flamex2, he topdecked ETW like a boss and hit me once while i had the T3 Plague into T4 Liliana + Bolt for his hardcast SSG for the game.


The list was nearly the same as last time, -1 Inquisition + 1 Seize, - 1 Sylvan Library + 1 Liliana and exchanging 1 Pyroblast in the board with Pulse.

razvan
02-02-2013, 09:40 PM
I played this today:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Strangleroot Geist
3 Bloodbraid Elf

3 Liliana of the Veil

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Sylvan Library
3 Cabal Therapy

3 Badlands
3 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Wooded Foothills

SIDEBOARD
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Thoughtseize
3 Pyroblast
1 Damnation
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Surgical Extractions
2 Obstinate Baloth

I started 3-0, then cratered hard.

Basically:

R1: Kolt with Jund Mirror (2-0)
R2: David with UW Stoneblade (2-1)
R3: Matt with BUG (2-0)
R4: Steve with Sneak and Show (1-2)
R5: Donny with UW Miracles (1-2)
R6: Graeme with Merfolk (0-2 I think, I was out so I wasn't really playing well or paying attention, which I don't like to do, but I was upset at losing the last 2 rounds. Still shouldn't do it)

Basically, Strangleroot Geists were awesome all day. Matt thoughtseized one on the play game 2, turn 1, in anticipation. They broke through everything, were great, lots of damage, blockers (not necessary, but they could in theory). I never cast Cabal Therapy at all, sadly, but it should be good.

In round 4, game 3, I mulled to 5, kept Deathrite, Confidant, Cabal Therapy, Surgical, Pyroblast or something. Figured, against Sneak and Show, that's a good hand if I draw a land. A 4-card hand would not have gotten there really, and in that case I could at least Therapy SnT, Surgical it, then cast Shaman and re-therapy?

But I didn't draw a land, and he SnT me turn 3 with Force backup. Not much I can do.

R5, game 3, I made a pretty huge mistake. He drew pretty good, he started with T1 top, T2 counterbalance, T3 rest in peace (waiting for helm), and I managed to nuke everything basically, except the top. He had nothing in hand, and I always had two creatures, but he always got Terminus-es, Swords, and the like.

The mistake: I had Bob and Liliana at 3, and just cast Geist. He was at 17, and had no hand. I figured I could sac the geist to make 5 power, and that would eat up a turn. He top-decked his one-of Supreme Verdict (he did have top still). It was a stupid mistake.

I finally got a BBE but his top card was Entreat the Angels. GG. On turn 20 or something.

So I don't know. The deck runs awesome, Geists are awesome, I think I need a better SB vs. Miracles, SnT and Jund. The rest takes care of itself.

Chains of Mephistopheles were nice against Dave in R2G2, but other than that, meh. I am not sure if they should be in there, and definitely not 2. Oh, well.

I am going to try Garruk the Veil-Cursed or however the hell the flip-card Garruk calls himself now. Pretty solid against Miracles and Jund.

As for SnT, eeeeh. Annoying, but maybe with a bit better luck, the deck isn't that scary. Steve had some wild tech, Stifle, Wipe Away and such... so there's that.

I don't know if I even care about Dredge, it's almost non existent, it's nice to have Surgicals, but maybe 2 would be fine.

I would try something like this, maybe?

3 Pyroblast
2 Thoughtseize
2 Damnation
2 Surgical Extractions
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Garruk the Flip-Card
2 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Take something out

This deck is significantly harder to board for. I think the Jittes could be sick. I like Garruk.

Finally, the store, Heroic Dreams in Pickering, east-end of Toronto, great location, great people. Great opponents. I always enjoy the places I play at, this was my first time here, and it was great. Might as well say it.

edit:

Matt, Miracles sucks. It's a very annoying match-up. Top alone is such a pain in the ass. Donny was a good player, so that didn't help, but I am not cherishing that match-up. Maybe Garruk is the solution.

zulander
02-03-2013, 12:38 AM
I just feel short on cards that turn side ways, *shrug.*

Yeah, I know how you feel. I think Ooze is the best beater after what we already have included (although you could play Call of the Herd if you wanted lol). I think Ooze and Jitte fill these rolls best by giving you beaters or making your beaters better than theirs.

Amazingxkcd
02-04-2013, 12:23 AM
Alright, so Tony Chu with his punishing Jund won SCG open and we had 3 punishing Jund lists in the top 8 (5 jund list in top 32). Here is his list for reference

Creatures
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

Enchantments
1 Sylvan Library

Instants
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire

Planeswalkers
4 Liliana of the Veil

Sorceries
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thoughtseize

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Swamp

Lands
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Engineered Plague
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Pyroblast
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Duress

The lists were all very similar, though I prefer BBD's inclusion of mindbreak trap in the SB as a concession to combo decks. These lists are very strong and durable and I quite like them a lot. 1 issue is that I think the 4th BBE can be fitted in the mainboard since BBD was making a lot of remarks about boarding it in every game in the deck tech videos.

Thoughts? I'll be looking forward to this version of Jund.

H0tmilk
02-04-2013, 10:17 AM
Creature
4 Goyf
4 Bob
4 shaman
4 BBE
1 lavamancer

Planeswalker
3 liliana
1 Domri rade

Spells
3 Hymn
3 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
4 Abrupt
4 Bolt
1 Pulse
2 Sylvan Library

Lands
4 wasteland
3 Badlands
3 bayou
1 taiga
1 forest
1 mountain
1 swamp
9 fetch

Sideboard
1 Golgari charm
1 loam
2 jitte
2 deed
1 ooze
2 pyroblast
2 ancient grudge
3 slaughter games
1 garruk relentless

This is the list I ran for Jupiters NELC. It was my first time playing Jund, and I know some cards (like Domri seem obscure) but I wanted to test it. My results were 4-3-0 which wasn't a complete loss and I had a lot of fun. It did also help me figure out the changes I would make to the build. First I think if I had the chains I ordered in before the tournament I might have had some better match ups. I think I would drop slaugher games 1 grudge for 2 chains and 2 ensnaring bridge. I would drop domri for either a second lavamancer or a 4th liliana (not sure yet on this because both did some great work for me)or even possible main loam. So Domri Rade ok I just couldn't resist trying it out and I cut the 4th liliana for his spot so it didn't really affect my deck to much. Did he help, No but a different PW that could be cascaded into seemed like something to test. There was a couple times he got me an extra creature in hand, I got to use his fight ability once when I needed it but that was about it so no improvment to the deck at least for me.

Round 1
4 color control deck
I was on the play I open with a Duress, forgot what I took I think it was a counterspell. turn 2 Hymn then I continue to rip his hand apart and land BBE into goyf he scoops
G2 I side in blasts but have another great opening hand
1-0
round 2
Eric English with Elves
this guy is a very good player and I actually got to meet him in Rochester the previous week while I was at training for work.
1-1
I honestly think if I had chains and Bridge this match may have gone different. but it was fun. here is his report

"Game 1 he starts off with a deathrite and then proceeds to waste me then lay down a dark confidant. The bob gives him a bunch of lands, allowing him to keep killing my creatures and wasting my cradles. Unfortunately for him he doesn't have anything other than deathrite to really pressure me, so eventually I find a glimpse plus creatures and hoof him. Game 2 was a little harder since I had to fight through both a jitte and a pernicious deed, but all he had for pressure was two deathrites and nothing else. So I went ahead and fetched harmonic sliver to first blow up the jitte. I then used 2 glimpses to mini combo on my turn, going up to over 8 cards in hand and moving to discard before he used the deed. It might have been right for him to have used it sooner, but it didn't really matter since I had a full hand and cradle against his nothing, so I easily won from there." Copy and pasted from His top 8 report because he wrote it exactly how it happened.

round 3 14 post Steve Thomas 1-2-0
yea I know steve we both play at mythic a lot and are friends. So this was an interesting match (well for Steve)
so Game 1 I try to keep up but just don't get the wastelands or anything relevant in time he prime titans into more land into Ulamog
game 2
I thoughtseize a Ostone away but seeKozilek and Ulamog in his hand. so I play a slaughter game on my next turn and name Prime titan thinking that if I can keep him for playing that I might have a chance to catch up but I was not able (Good games steve I'll get you next time)

R4 Elves (dont remember name) 2-2-0
this time I was able to keep him off everything with hand disruption and abrupt
G2 same thing

R5 esperblade 2-3-0
dont remember to much on this I know I won game 1 but 2 and 3 he took over with souls tokens

R6 Burn 3-3-0
I won g1 and 2 playing around Price and sided in jitte to gain some life

R7 Bug
He was a nice guy I dont remember his name though but it was a fun match we knew we were out of the prize pool so just had a relaxed game and test our decks against one another.
I won both games BBE is just so good.

well all in all it was a fun day got to play some Legacy and meet some good people.

Amazingxkcd
02-04-2013, 11:14 AM
I'm curious about inclusion of slaughter games in your sideboard. Have you seen yourself ever using it, or would prefer extirpate or another option? 4cmc is a bit high imo.

ykpon
02-04-2013, 12:43 PM
I'm curious about inclusion of slaughter games in your sideboard. Have you seen yourself ever using it, or would prefer extirpate or another option? 4cmc is a bit high imo.
This deck loses to Entreat the Angels and Slaughter Games is the only real answer jund has access to.

H0tmilk
02-04-2013, 01:09 PM
Yes I ran slaughter games for that reason and just that it cant be countered and doesn't rely on the GY. But I did miss extractions as they are easyer to cast.

LEH
02-04-2013, 01:10 PM
This deck loses to Entreat the Angels and Slaughter Games is the only real answer jund has access to.

Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives, et al. want words with you.

sdematt
02-04-2013, 01:11 PM
Slaughter vs. Extraction is not an apt comparison. One's a hate card against something not on the field yet, whereas one only picks things that have gone to the yard.

Slaughter is better against slow control decks with few win cons that we can lose to (Entreat, sometimes Jaces, etc.). Extraction is fast Combo hate when backed with discard, or gravehate.

-Matt

arbiter
02-04-2013, 01:13 PM
This deck loses to Entreat the Angels and Slaughter Games is the only real answer jund has access to.

How about Maelstrom Pulse, more better/versatile card against Miracle deck I think, and cascadeable also. I would use Slaughter Games maybe against Show and tell, or some other non-dredge combodeck or possibly against some cbtop/jace control. Mana cost can be a problem too.

sdematt
02-04-2013, 01:20 PM
I mean this in the nicest possible way.

If your Miracles opponent is Entreating in their normal draw step for Angel tokens, they deserve to be kicked in the teeth for a move like that. The correct play is to EOT Entreat for lethal in the air so there's no time to Pulse, EE, Deed, etc. Giving you a draw step to do something is a bad idea on their part.

-Matt

alphastryk
02-04-2013, 02:02 PM
I mean this in the nicest possible way.

If your Miracles opponent is Entreating in their normal draw step for Angel tokens, they deserve to be kicked in the teeth for a move like that. The correct play is to EOT Entreat for lethal in the air so there's no time to Pulse, EE, Deed, etc. Giving you a draw step to do something is a bad idea on their part.

-Matt

Yep, as the Miracles player, it pains me every time I see someone with a top in play cast entreat during the draw step.

Darkness
02-05-2013, 12:10 AM
Here's my list I intend on bringing to SCG Edison this weekend. I am looking for thoughts on 3 groves vs 4, 23 lands Vs 24 and what GY hate I should be bringing if any at all. Please critic with suggestions on +what and -what and the reasoning

Creatures x 15
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Bloodbraid Elf

Spells x 22
4x Thoughtseize
4x Liliana of the Veil
3x Lightning Bolt
3x Punishing Fire
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Sylvan Library
1x Maelstrom Pulse

Lands x 23
3x Badlands
2x Bayou
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Wooded Foothill
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wasteland
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Mountain

SB

1x Ancient Grudge
3x Duress
1x Life from the Loam
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Pernicious Deed
3x Pyroblast
2x Umezawa's Jitte

Not sure about the 4 LLotV in the SB, would be willing to play other forms of GY hate life nihil spellbomb surgical or Faerie macabre.

DLifshitz
02-05-2013, 05:10 AM
Here's my list I intend on bringing to SCG Edison this weekend.

Definitely 4 Groves. Grove is a giant Wasteland magnet, and since you are not running a Taiga, you'll quite simply need the extra R/G mana source.

I think that 4 Leylines (in addition to DRS) may be too much graveyard hate. Also, in the current metagame, graveyard hate is less against Reanimator or Dredge, and more against other fair decks, so one doesn't usually want to try to mulligan into a Leyline. It's also a bad card to draw later in the game. I personally would go for something like 2 copies of Faerie and 1 Spellbomb but it's a matter of taste and metagame in any case. I also like having some Engineered Plagues in the sideboard.

Barbed Blightning
02-05-2013, 08:47 AM
Here's my list I intend on bringing to SCG Edison this weekend. I am looking for thoughts on 3 groves vs 4, 23 lands Vs 24 and what GY hate I should be bringing if any at all. Please critic with suggestions on +what and -what and the reasoning

Creatures x 15
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Bloodbraid Elf

Spells x 22
4x Thoughtseize
4x Liliana of the Veil
3x Lightning Bolt
3x Punishing Fire
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Sylvan Library
1x Maelstrom Pulse

Lands x 23
3x Badlands
2x Bayou
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Wooded Foothill
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wasteland
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Mountain

SB

1x Ancient Grudge
3x Duress
1x Life from the Loam
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Pernicious Deed
3x Pyroblast
2x Umezawa's Jitte

Not sure about the 4 LLotV in the SB, would be willing to play other forms of GY hate life nihil spellbomb surgical or Faerie macabre.

Needs more scavenging ooze

tonychu88
02-05-2013, 12:59 PM
Hi,

My decklist for the scg tournament I felt was very good. I think that it had most of the cards that I wanted. BBD's inclusion of mindbreak trap in the board is probably something that has to be done moving forward. In the coming weeks, combo will be more prevalent.

I'm not sure about the 4th BBE in the main, I think that I boarded it in a lot in grindy matchups but I'm not sure that you can afford to have so many 4 drops in the main.

razvan
02-05-2013, 01:18 PM
Well done Tony. Will you do a report?

I am still not convinced on MBT (yet anyway). It doesn't help against Show and Tell, it *could* help against Elves, but I am not sure you want that. It obviously kills against a more careless Storm player.

However, I also said that I wasn't convinced on Punishing Fires, and it's doing well at the moment, so it definitely requires a bit more testing.

3 BBEs are enough MD.

Amazingxkcd
02-05-2013, 02:18 PM
Hello Tony! I liked watching you play alot. @larvan, I personally like the MBT since in my own testing, the MBT has always been effective unless they play something like a silence, but we have discard for that. As for the 4th BBE, I'm not really sure how to sideboard it in for the grindy matchups. Would it be better to have it in the main?

tonychu88
02-05-2013, 02:48 PM
Hello Tony! I liked watching you play alot. @larvan, I personally like the MBT since in my own testing, the MBT has always been effective unless they play something like a silence, but we have discard for that. As for the 4th BBE, I'm not really sure how to sideboard it in for the grindy matchups. Would it be better to have it in the main?

I'm not sure I'd want to cut anything in the main, but I can see the Life from the Loam not being that good. I might play the 4th punishing fire over the loam, if there isn't a lot of combo in your meta. The 4th BBE is good in the mirror, stoneblade, 4-c cascade, bug, etc. it's pretty avg vs combo.

jin
02-05-2013, 07:48 PM
Hey Tony,

Congrats on the finish. I was wondering about your mana base. It looks really good for a mana base that has both Wastelands and Grove of the Burnwillows, but did you feel at any point that the mana base needed work? I'm running 22 lands without Wastelands and feel that it is much smoother than 23 lands with Wastelands. Maybe I'm firing the Wastelands away too quickly...

My 22:
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
3x Bayou
2x Badlands
1x Taiga
1x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Wooded Foothills

Amazingxkcd
02-05-2013, 11:35 PM
as said above, you want to have the 4th grove since grove itself is a high priority target for wastelands

jin
02-06-2013, 12:53 AM
as said above, you want to have the 4th grove since grove itself is a high priority target for wastelands

My main concern isn't the count of grove, but the fact that wastelands means you have less coloured mana, and in general, less lands to cast things with.

tonychu88
02-06-2013, 09:49 AM
My main concern isn't the count of grove, but the fact that wastelands means you have less coloured mana, and in general, less lands to cast things with.

Wasteland is very good, and is worth tweaking and adjusting the mana base for the shear power. I think the deck definitely needs 23-24 lands depending, if you notice I was running 23 lands + a Loam, which acts like a 24th land. I thought the land count was about as low as it gets and you can't trim anymore. Wasteland is very good in a lot of matchups because of the mana boost that deathrite shaman can give you. Just being able to wasteland on t2+playing a 2-drop is usually insane amounts of tempo. Also, the free win variable, there are a lot of greedy mana bases and having wasteland in your deck can just be a huge blowout.

As an aside, there's a certain mental aspect involved with playing wasteland in your deck, people tend to fetch basics a lot and sometimes this can end up screwing them out of a color later eventhough you may not have wasteland.

Koby
02-06-2013, 01:05 PM
As an aside, there's a certain mental aspect involved with playing wasteland in your deck, people tend to fetch basics a lot and sometimes this can end up screwing them out of a color later eventhough you may not have wasteland.

I disagree with this statement. Decks that run basic lands in Legacy do so to operate under the threat of Wasteland. The whole point of fetching basics is to prevent color and mana screw against said Wastelands. Most 2 and some 3 color decks can still operate optimally with 1-3 basics in play. Granted, fast combo like ANT/TES, and some versions of OmniTell do suffer slightly from Wasteland, but their speed makes up the difference in that vulnerability.

I can see Wasteland being an important tempo element in Jund, much like it is in Junk and Maverick (comparable archetypes in the Midrange category). The point that with DRS, Wasteland is a net neutral mana play is a big bonus for decks able to run him.

tonychu88
02-06-2013, 01:09 PM
I disagree with this statement. Decks that run basic lands in Legacy do so to operate under the threat of Wasteland. The whole point of fetching basics is to prevent color and mana screw against said Wastelands. Most 2 and some 3 color decks can still operate optimally with 1-3 basics in play. Granted, fast combo like ANT/TES, and some versions of OmniTell do suffer slightly from Wasteland, but their speed makes up the difference in that vulnerability.

I can see Wasteland being an important tempo element in Jund, much like it is in Junk and Maverick (comparable archetypes in the Midrange category). The point that with DRS, Wasteland is a net neutral mana play is a big bonus for decks able to run him.

It is true that most decks that run lots of basic's do that because they are able to function with only basics. There are corner cases where just having your wasteland in your deck causes their game plan to change ever so slightly. For instance, in a match that I played on Sunday against Esper Stoneblade, the stoneblade player fetched plains/island basics and was able to play, but at the end of the game he wasn't able to flashback lingering souls, which would have been huge. Small advantages like that add up over 10 rounds and give you the edge if you are able to take advantage of them (depends on playstyle).

In summary, while the esper stoneblade deck was able to run off plains/islands it ended up that he didn't fetch a scrubland early game because of wasteland, which caused a ripple effect later.

Darkness
02-07-2013, 12:30 PM
Thanks for the feedback from everyone. Here is the current 75 I'm bringing to Edison on Sat and Sunday. Wish me luck!

Creatures x 15
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Bloodbraid Elf

Spells x 22
4x Thoughtseize
4x Liliana of the Veil
3x Lightning Bolt
3x Punishing Fire
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Sylvan Library
1x Life from the Loam

Lands x 23
3x Badlands
2x Bayou
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Wooded Foothill
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wasteland
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Swamp
1x Forest

SB

3x Mindbreak Trap
3x Pyroblast
3x Duress
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Bloodbraid Elf

If I make top 16 expect a report within the week.

Barbed Blightning
02-07-2013, 01:13 PM
It is true that most decks that run lots of basic's do that because they are able to function with only basics. There are corner cases where just having your wasteland in your deck causes their game plan to change ever so slightly. For instance, in a match that I played on Sunday against Esper Stoneblade, the stoneblade player fetched plains/island basics and was able to play, but at the end of the game he wasn't able to flashback lingering souls, which would have been huge. Small advantages like that add up over 10 rounds and give you the edge if you are able to take advantage of them (depends on playstyle).

In summary, while the esper stoneblade deck was able to run off plains/islands it ended up that he didn't fetch a scrubland early game because of wasteland, which caused a ripple effect later.

This is why I play 4 wasteland, regardless; like daze and stifle, forcing your opponent to play around it can trip them up. It doesn't always happen, but it causes them to approach the match in a different manner.

sdematt
02-07-2013, 01:33 PM
A friend of mine was testing Blightning for the funsies, since, why not, right? Turns out it's not too bad. Muck a Planeswalker/small creature and muck two cards?

I know it's slow, 3-mana, etc. It just funny to go on Cockatrice and Blightning people.

-Matt

Barbed Blightning
02-07-2013, 02:32 PM
A friend of mine was testing Blightning for the funsies, since, why not, right? Turns out it's not too bad. Muck a Planeswalker/small creature and muck two cards?

I know it's slow, 3-mana, etc. It just funny to go on Cockatrice and Blightning people.

-Matt

Hey, I've got some for my deck just because. Plus, off BBE, it's pretty damn good

Amazingxkcd
02-07-2013, 03:10 PM
How many copies are you playing, and are you playing the pfire version alonside the blightning or not?

Barbed Blightning
02-07-2013, 03:38 PM
How many copies are you playing, and are you playing the pfire version alonside the blightning or not?

In my blighting version, it's two blighting, 4 thoughtseize, and 4 of the usual suspects. I'm currently not running pfire, since I want basics.

Currently debating if I should play jund for Edison; on the one hand, it's obviously doing well right now, but on the other I feel like people will be prepared for it.

Thoughts from the less unsure?

zulander
02-07-2013, 03:42 PM
I like blightning in the board against control, kills jace and is really good. That in Sulfuric Vortex out of the board along with the md hymn/liliana make the matchup very good. Here's my current traditional Jund list:


Creatures: 19
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Bloodbraid Elf

Disruption: 16
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Taurach
2 Liliana of the Veil

Other: 3
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Mana: 22
3 Wasteland
3 Catacombs
3 Mire
3 Foothills
3 Basics
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
1 Taiga

Board: 15
3 Surgical
2 Blightning
2 Maelstrom Pulse/Ashes to Ashes
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
2 Crypt


I ran the list last night and did well. Made a playmistake against BUG and walked right into stifle which was awful. Otherwise ended up doing well. Beat two combo decks (show and tell/Tide) lol.

I personally prefer Lavamancer over PFires. Comes down turn 1, costs 1 mana to activate, and can't get wasted out of the combo. Sure it dies to removal, but most people are okay with loving lavamancer instead of other creatures to opponents removal spells.

Koby
02-07-2013, 03:43 PM
This deck will need to have good answers to cards like Obstinate Baloth and Wilt-Leaf Liege if the amount of Jund keeps it's current pace. Both of these 4/4s cannot be removed easily and confound the use of Liliana as multi-purpose disruption. Deathmark seems highly appropriate here, and good against all versions of GSZ and Goyf decks too.

EDIT: only now realized I put can instead of cannot.

Amazingxkcd
02-07-2013, 04:17 PM
I feel like deathmark is a bit too narrow, but is worth playing in sideboard if Maverick makes a comeback to the meta (Which won't happen until the combo decks reside down a little)

Edit: It does also kill opposing DRS and goyfs, etc, but We already have bolts, decays, and for the pfire guys (like me), we have pfire as well.

Koby
02-07-2013, 04:19 PM
I feel like deathmark is a bit too narrow, but is worth playing in sideboard if Maverick makes a comeback to the meta (Which won't happen until the combo decks reside down a little)

Don't underestimate how effective Maverick can be against Combo - at least as good as Jund if not better thanks to Thalia and Gaddock Teeg. It's also a better Wasteland deck than Jund can ever hope to be.

Achamian
02-07-2013, 04:55 PM
Don't underestimate how effective Maverick can be against Combo - at least as good as Jund if not better thanks to Thalia and Gaddock Teeg. It's also a better Wasteland deck than Jund can ever hope to be.

As a SneakShow player myself, for example, I'm just loving the match-up against Jund (resolve a single S&T = probably win) while playing against Maverick can be quite a pain in the ass thanks to uncounterable Thalia, Gaddock Teeg (both with protection from Mother of Runes, at best) and KotR along with Karakas.

defector
02-07-2013, 07:34 PM
@Koby: Agreed 100% Mav was fine in a combo meta. What's keeping Mav down is the decent amount of Miracles thats out there. If Miracles declines siginificantly we'll see both combo in general and Mav in specific find some more space in the metagame.

Koby
02-07-2013, 07:39 PM
@Koby: Agreed 100% Mav was fine in a combo meta. What's keeping Mav down is the decent amount of Miracles thats out there. If Miracles declines siginificantly we'll see both combo in general and Mav in specific find some more space in the metagame.

I think that kind of discussion is outside the scope of this thread. Jund is doing a great job at suppressing Miracle decks however, so it's only natural that the decks that were suppressed by Miracles will slowly return. And Combo :)

Barbed Blightning
02-08-2013, 01:12 PM
@Koby: Agreed 100% Mav was fine in a combo meta. What's keeping Mav down is the decent amount of Miracles thats out there. If Miracles declines siginificantly we'll see both combo in general and Mav in specific find some more space in the metagame.

+1 to what Koby said. Jund (and to a lesser extent, BUG and Junk) have successfully been driving Miracles out of the metagame as a whole. It's not that it's an entirely unplayable deck, either; it's just that (imo) those who were playing it because it was "well positioned" dropped it b/c of Decay. Similar to how there was a large amount of Maverick until Terminus rolled around.

As to whether or not Maverick will return, idk. It depends solely on if players feel like going back to Moms and Zeniths, or if the allure of Decay/DRS will make Junk more appealing. Regardless, I'm running 2 Deathmarks just in case--it's also good versus Elves, Deadguy and random Death & Taxes decks.

defector
02-08-2013, 09:57 PM
I like death marks and if the meta diversifies because of Jund than go legacy! It would be hilarious to see babe into virtuous ruin and other insane plays:))

JonhLightning
02-08-2013, 11:27 PM
Is Choke a good sideboard card against blue decks? It does seem bad now that Abrupt decay can easely clear it off the board. Should I get myself some Sinkhole? I am playing Punishing JUND.

Darkness
02-09-2013, 12:38 AM
Is Choke a good sideboard card against blue decks? It does seem bad now that Abrupt decay can easely clear it off the board. Should I get myself some Sinkhole? I am playing Punishing JUND.

I don't think that choke is that good at the moment. The only deck it truly hurts that has few answers is Esper Blade, and you matchup against them is really good pre and post board. RuG delver is another deck it kinda hurts but you have a good matchup against them too, also with daze its kinda meh. Against BUG they have decay and if they are playing tempo they have daze as well deathrite which gives them access to blue. Against combo it might slow them down but I'd rather just be casting discard to disrupt their combo instead of waiting till turn 2-3 to land a choke which may not matter if their lands are untapped. I've played choke in the past and wasn't impressed at all. Regarding the punishing fire combo, I do agree that it is very strong ATM. Takes care of so many problem creatures, gives you inevitability and is easy to board at where its bad. The worse part of it is the mana basic disruption. I do believe after testing you drop down to 3 wastelands from 4. You also drop the basic mountain because you have more ways of producing red sources then GB. Also getting wasted from red early on can be relevant but the mountain was always the worst land I drew and almost never wanted to fetch for it. I think with punishing fire you can go without E. Plagues post board due to the continuous press applied via Punishing fire. E plague is used in 3 major matchups imo, Lingering Soul decks, Tribal Decks, W(G,B) human decks. Punishing fire not only gives you the diversity to fire these decks round 1, but also allow you to bring in better cards for the matchup post board. It is also not a permanent that gets abupted or pridemaged or disenchanted etc. My current 75 is as such and here are my basic outlines on SB:

Creatures x 15
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Bloodbraid Elf

Spells x 22
4x Thoughtseize
4x Liliana of the Veil
3x Lightning Bolt
3x Punishing Fire
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Sylvan Library
1x Life from the Loam

Lands x 23
3x Badlands
2x Bayou
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Wooded Foothill
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wasteland
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Swamp
1x Forest


3x Duress
3x Pyroblast
3x Mindbreak Trap
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Malestrom Pulse
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Bloodbraid Elf
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Esper: +3 pyroblast +1 Pulse + 1 Grudge +1 Bloodbraid Elf
-1 Gofy -3 Hymn -1 Thoughtseize -1 Life from the Loam
RUG Delver: +3 Pyroblast +1 Umezawa's Jitte + 1 Bloodbraid Elf
-3 Hymn -1 Liliana -1 Thoughtseize
BuG Delver: +3 Pyroblast + 1 Bloodbraid
- 3 Hymn(if playing daze and on the draw) - Thoughtseize
Storm Based Combo: +3 Duress + 3 Mindbreak Trap + 3 Pyroblast (if heavy blue) + 2 Nihil Spellbombs (if running past in flames or ill gotten gains or time spiral)
-3 punishing fire - 1 Bloodbraid - 3 Abrupt Decay ( can take out bolts and life//library if needs to have more taken out )

Tribal Decks + G(w/b, based decks): +1 Umezawa's Jitte + 1 Bloodbraid Elf + 1 Ancient Grudge ( if running Equipment or Vial ) + 1 Maelstrom Pulse
- 3 Hymn to Tourach - 1 Thoughtseize

Show and Tell: +3 Duress +3 Pyroblast + 2 Nihil Spellbomb (if playing with Emrakuel Tricks)
-3 Punishing Fire -1 Life from the Loam -3 Abrupt Decay
Mirror: +1 Umezawa's Jitte + 2 Spellbomb (if playing against Punishing Fire Combo) +1 Bloodbraid Elf
-3 Hymn -1 Thoughtseize (if Nihil Spellbomb needed)

I don't have enough time to cover everything but to the original point, I don't think chokes are needed. You have the proper tools to fight these decks with strong SB options without compromising other match ups. I also don't believe you need E. Plagues either. The only match I really see Jund wanting them would be for the Combo elves. Anything else is just insult to injury.

Hope this has been helpful.

JonhLightning
02-09-2013, 07:10 AM
I don't think that choke is that good at the moment. The only deck it truly hurts that has few answers is Esper Blade, and you matchup against them is really good pre and post board. RuG delver is another deck it kinda hurts but you have a good matchup against them too, also with daze its kinda meh. Against BUG they have decay and if they are playing tempo they have daze as well deathrite which gives them access to blue. Against combo it might slow them down but I'd rather just be casting discard to disrupt their combo instead of waiting till turn 2-3 to land a choke which may not matter if their lands are untapped. I've played choke in the past and wasn't impressed at all. Regarding the punishing fire combo, I do agree that it is very strong ATM. Takes care of so many problem creatures, gives you inevitability and is easy to board at where its bad. The worse part of it is the mana basic disruption. I do believe after testing you drop down to 3 wastelands from 4. You also drop the basic mountain because you have more ways of producing red sources then GB. Also getting wasted from red early on can be relevant but the mountain was always the worst land I drew and almost never wanted to fetch for it. I think with punishing fire you can go without E. Plagues post board due to the continuous press applied via Punishing fire. E plague is used in 3 major matchups imo, Lingering Soul decks, Tribal Decks, W(G,B) human decks. Punishing fire not only gives you the diversity to fire these decks round 1, but also allow you to bring in better cards for the matchup post board. It is also not a permanent that gets abupted or pridemaged or disenchanted etc. My current 75 is as such and here are my basic outlines on SB:

Creatures x 15
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Bloodbraid Elf

Spells x 22
4x Thoughtseize
4x Liliana of the Veil
3x Lightning Bolt
3x Punishing Fire
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Sylvan Library
1x Life from the Loam

Lands x 23
3x Badlands
2x Bayou
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Wooded Foothill
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wasteland
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Swamp
1x Forest


3x Duress
3x Pyroblast
3x Mindbreak Trap
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Malestrom Pulse
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Bloodbraid Elf
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Esper: +3 pyroblast +1 Pulse + 1 Grudge +1 Bloodbraid Elf
-1 Gofy -3 Hymn -1 Thoughtseize -1 Life from the Loam
RUG Delver: +3 Pyroblast +1 Umezawa's Jitte + 1 Bloodbraid Elf
-3 Hymn -1 Liliana -1 Thoughtseize
BuG Delver: +3 Pyroblast + 1 Bloodbraid
- 3 Hymn(if playing daze and on the draw) - Thoughtseize
Storm Based Combo: +3 Duress + 3 Mindbreak Trap + 3 Pyroblast (if heavy blue) + 2 Nihil Spellbombs (if running past in flames or ill gotten gains or time spiral)
-3 punishing fire - 1 Bloodbraid - 3 Abrupt Decay ( can take out bolts and life//library if needs to have more taken out )

Tribal Decks + G(w/b, based decks): +1 Umezawa's Jitte + 1 Bloodbraid Elf + 1 Ancient Grudge ( if running Equipment or Vial ) + 1 Maelstrom Pulse
- 3 Hymn to Tourach - 1 Thoughtseize

Show and Tell: +3 Duress +3 Pyroblast + 2 Nihil Spellbomb (if playing with Emrakuel Tricks)
-3 Punishing Fire -1 Life from the Loam -3 Abrupt Decay
Mirror: +1 Umezawa's Jitte + 2 Spellbomb (if playing against Punishing Fire Combo) +1 Bloodbraid Elf
-3 Hymn -1 Thoughtseize (if Nihil Spellbomb needed)

I don't have enough time to cover everything but to the original point, I don't think chokes are needed. You have the proper tools to fight these decks with strong SB options without compromising other match ups. I also don't believe you need E. Plagues either. The only match I really see Jund wanting them would be for the Combo elves. Anything else is just insult to injury.

Hope this has been helpful.

Yes this was very helpful. I will be work on my sideboard. But I asked, would Sinkhole be good then? (Sideboard or Maindeck).

rnightingale
02-09-2013, 09:27 AM
how to you board against mirror ?

primer says,

Cards to sideboard out:

1-mana Discard

but it seems that this is not quite effective

zulander
02-09-2013, 11:38 AM
Swap out liliana's for jitte's/scavenging oozes.

Amazingxkcd
02-09-2013, 03:24 PM
Why not just have 1 obstinate baloth for the mirror? With the discard and the lilianas around, that card is a trump.

James
02-09-2013, 04:06 PM
Playing the Punishing Fire combo maindeck, my sideboard would be the following:

3 Pyroblast
3 Duress
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
2 Obstinate Baloth or Pithing Needle
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Nihill Spellbomb

Taking into account that the top 3 tier decks are Esperblade, Jund and RUG/BUG, I think that Batterskull, Jitte and Obstinate Baloth may be very good against Mirror and BUG, while Rakdos, Ancient and Krosan are useful against Esper and Pyro, Nihill and Rakdos against RUG.

Pithing is a house against Jace or Pernicious or ToP so I have doubts between this and Obstinate (which is also very helpful against Burn and tribal decks in general).

The rest of the side should be focused to beat combo...

jin
02-09-2013, 08:16 PM
Playing the Punishing Fire combo maindeck, my sideboard would be the following:

3 Pyroblast
3 Duress
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
2 Obstinate Baloth or Pithing Needle
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Nihill Spellbomb

Taking into account that the top 3 tier decks are Esperblade, Jund and RUG/BUG, I think that Batterskull, Jitte and Obstinate Baloth may be very good against Mirror and BUG, while Rakdos, Ancient and Krosan are useful against Esper and Pyro, Nihill and Rakdos against RUG.

Pithing is a house against Jace or Pernicious or ToP so I have doubts between this and Obstinate (which is also very helpful against Burn and tribal decks in general).

The rest of the side should be focused to beat combo...

Nihil spellbomb doesn't really hurt RUG. I wouldn't bring it in...


Wasteland is very good, and is worth tweaking and adjusting the mana base for the shear power. I think the deck definitely needs 23-24 lands depending, if you notice I was running 23 lands + a Loam, which acts like a 24th land. I thought the land count was about as low as it gets and you can't trim anymore. Wasteland is very good in a lot of matchups because of the mana boost that deathrite shaman can give you. Just being able to wasteland on t2+playing a 2-drop is usually insane amounts of tempo. Also, the free win variable, there are a lot of greedy mana bases and having wasteland in your deck can just be a huge blowout.

As an aside, there's a certain mental aspect involved with playing wasteland in your deck, people tend to fetch basics a lot and sometimes this can end up screwing them out of a color later eventhough you may not have wasteland.

Good call, thanks. I'll try it out again.

zulander
02-10-2013, 12:44 AM
I think the most difficult thing to deal with in BUG decks are tombstalkers. I'm find that three mana removal spells are just not getting it done, I'm thinking about terminate and go for the throat as potential board cards as I have 4 spots open now in my board (non-PFires JUND).

Darkness
02-11-2013, 09:55 AM
Placed 6-3 at Edison with this list ended up at 37th place, I'm not in the final standings at 37th but 137th for round 9 but if you check round 8 I was 45 or 46 and winning mirror bumped me to 37th!

Creatures x 15
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Bloodbraid Elf

Spells x 22
4x Thoughtseize
4x Liliana of the Veil
3x Lightning Bolt
3x Punishing Fire
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Sylvan Library
1x Life from the Loam

Lands x 23
3x Badlands
2x Bayou
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Wooded Foothill
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wasteland
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Swamp
1x Forest


3x Duress
3x Pyroblast
3x Mindbreak Trap
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Malestrom Pulse
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Bloodbraid Elf
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Round 1 Beat RuG Delver 2-1
Round 2 Beat TES, Piloted via Bryant Cook, I did get luck as I needed 2-0
Round 3 Beat UWR Delver 2-1
Round 4 Lost to RuG Delver piloted via AJ Sacher 0-2
Round 5 Beat Stoneblade 2-0
Round 6 Beat Junk Nic Fit 2-1
Round 7 Lost to Merfolk via mana screw, and missing DRS gain life trigger to not die to Bob fml. 0-2
Round 8 Lost to Sneak and Show 0-2
Round 9 Beat Mirror 2-0

Overall had a really fun weekend, made a lot of new friends, had Bryant Cook sign my goblin tokens for storm, went 3-1 in legacy challenge with TES. Good weekend

Barbed Blightning
02-11-2013, 11:27 AM
Went 5-3-1 at Edison, first time playing the deck. Absolutely curb stomped High Tide, Bant, NO Bant, Zombardment and Punishing Maverick. Drew with Lands because I forgot graveyard hate. All my losses were to ANT or TES.

Any advice for the storm matchup? I had to double hymn and duress a guy just to force game three.

Amazingxkcd
02-11-2013, 11:42 AM
Mindbreak traps are pretty good, as a 2 of or 3 of depending on the meta and your personal call.

Arsenal
02-11-2013, 11:48 AM
I thought combo decks typically prey on non-blue midrange, grindy type decks like Jund, Junk, Maverick, etc. Not saying we should just give up on the matchup, but it's important to realize that some matchups will just be really tough to overcome on a consistent basis.

Barbed Blightning
02-11-2013, 12:25 PM
I thought combo decks typically prey on non-blue midrange, grindy type decks like Jund, Junk, Maverick, etc. Not saying we should just give up on the matchup, but it's important to realize that some matchups will just be really tough to overcome on a consistent basis.

I am well aware. I'm just trying to find the best defense for this deck. Discard seems to be our best line of attack; after that, something that interacts with their spells instant-speed (Mindbreak Trap, Pyrostatic Pillar, etc.)

Shawon
02-11-2013, 12:41 PM
I think the most difficult thing to deal with in BUG decks are tombstalkers. I'm find that three mana removal spells are just not getting it done, I'm thinking about terminate and go for the throat as potential board cards as I have 4 spots open now in my board (non-PFires JUND).

Have you considered Dead / Gone? Seems like it's incredibly flexible as it can still do the job of early red removal but with an additional bonus of removing some problematic creatures, even though temporarily.

Now that I'm mentioning split cards, I can only imagine how hilarious it would be to BBE into Boom / Bust and observe your Miracle opponent's facial reaction when you announce you are casting Bust :laugh:

EDIT: Dreadbore seems like another flexible alternative, since it has applications versus control decks relying on PWs.

Barbed Blightning
02-11-2013, 06:00 PM
Anybody considered Jund Charm? Obviously mana intensive but looks very versatile.

razvan
02-11-2013, 07:58 PM
I am not super-certain that Modern Jund cards will be good in Legacy. Completely different decks that you need to face. Jund Charm is ok, and can do some nice tricks, but I don't know if it's worth it. It doesn't help with your bad match-ups at all.

I still think Show and Tell and Miracles are the #1 problem, with some other combo decks in tow. The rest is easily handled.

Barbed Blightning
02-11-2013, 08:06 PM
I am not super-certain that Modern Jund cards will be good in Legacy. Completely different decks that you need to face. Jund Charm is ok, and can do some nice tricks, but I don't know if it's worth it. It doesn't help with your bad match-ups at all.

I still think Show and Tell and Miracles are the #1 problem, with some other combo decks in tow. The rest is easily handled.

My thought was the ability to have graveyard hate while also having other useful modes for other matchups. Rakdos and Golgari charm also have these qualities.

zulander
02-11-2013, 11:32 PM
I'm not a huge fan of Jund Charm, I think dreadbore is playable since it can come in against Jund/Control. Golgari Charm is okay because it's great against Helm Combo control (actually just is a beast in that matchup).

Kuma
02-12-2013, 10:37 AM
Why run Jund Charm and Dreadbore for cards you can't answer? What's wrong with Maelstrom Pulse?

dunk
02-12-2013, 12:56 PM
Yeah Jund Charm sucks, despite some people playing up to 4 in their Modern sideboards it's a 2 of at best, mostly because 3 mana is pretty clumsy...

Golgari Charm on the other hand seems super sweet, especially in Legacy. The modes are all good, in fact you can bring it in against a lot of decks and as a 2 mana instant it's cheap enough for what it does. In an open meta I think I would play at least 1, more likely 2 of them. I really like how it can crush random decks like Enchantress and DnT while also be viable against tier 1 decks.

Barbed Blightning
02-12-2013, 01:51 PM
Yeah Jund Charm sucks, despite some people playing up to 4 in their Modern sideboards it's a 2 of at best, mostly because 3 mana is pretty clumsy...

Golgari Charm on the other hand seems super sweet, especially in Legacy. The modes are all good, in fact you can bring it in against a lot of decks and as a 2 mana instant it's cheap enough for what it does. In an open meta I think I would play at least 1, more likely 2 of them. I really like how it can crush random decks like Enchantress and DnT while also be viable against tier 1 decks.

I run three in my Junk sideboard alongside a pair of deeds. It's always been good.

razvan
02-12-2013, 03:58 PM
Well, Golgari Charm does help against Sneak Attack, Rest in Peace and that stupid Leyline of Sanctity.

So now we have to evaluate how that is better than Naturalize or Krosan Grip.

So what does that charm do:

- Can randomly kill stuff. Hey, Lingering Souls is still a card, so are goblins, and even Merfolk before they set up a lord.
- -1/-1 on a SFM with Jitte is good, if only for one turn.
- If they get a Dark Confidant first, you can kill theirs.
- Regenerate all creatures is good against Supreme Verdict.

Hm. I might be convinced to play one! It's actually not bad.

aznepyon7
02-12-2013, 04:05 PM
Went 5-3-1 at Edison, first time playing the deck. Absolutely curb stomped High Tide, Bant, NO Bant, Zombardment and Punishing Maverick. Drew with Lands because I forgot graveyard hate. All my losses were to ANT or TES.

Any advice for the storm matchup? I had to double hymn and duress a guy just to force game three.


mindbreak trap is a good start.

Combo matchup is bad for Jund. People who play combo currently are geared against discard which is big right now. I'm sure with experience and the right cards, you should be able to handle it.

Can you describe your PF Maverick game? Do you know the decklist? I was under the impression that PF Maverick was a pretty bad matchup for Jund.

Congrats on your finish.

Barbed Blightning
02-12-2013, 04:08 PM
Well, Golgari Charm does help against Sneak Attack, Rest in Peace and that stupid Leyline of Sanctity.

So now we have to evaluate how that is better than Naturalize or Krosan Grip.

So what does that charm do:

- Can randomly kill stuff. Hey, Lingering Souls is still a card, so are goblins, and even Merfolk before they set up a lord.
- -1/-1 on a SFM with Jitte is good, if only for one turn.
- If they get a Dark Confidant first, you can kill theirs.
- Regenerate all creatures is good against Supreme Verdict.

Hm. I might be convinced to play one! It's actually not bad.

Regeneration through a Deed, profiting on combat, and kills D&T/Maverick. Good spell is good. The BUG list that made second at Edison ran some

Darkness
02-12-2013, 09:37 PM
My current 75 after SCG Edison is as such,

Creatures x 15
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Bloodbraid Elf

Spells x 21
4x Thoughtseize
4x Liliana of the Veil
3x Lightning Bolt
3x Punishing Fire
3x Hymn to Tourach
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Sylvan Library

Lands x 24
3x Badlands
2x Bayou
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Wooded Foothill
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Wasteland
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Swamp
1x Forest

Sideboard

4x Duress
3x Chalice of the Void
3x Pyroblast
1x Bloodbraid Elf
1x Life from the Loam
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Main Deck changes

I wanted to go back up to 24 lands, which is what I felt was the right number before I played with Punishing Fire. Originally I went down to 23 lands with the incorporation of Punishing Fire and had the Life from the Loam to act as the 24 land. As nice as Loam was in the main deck, I felt like not having the direct 24th land put me in awkward mulligans. Jund thrives off of continuously applying strong pressure to their opponents. Failing to play a land for the first 4 turns inhibits you from applying pressure and stripping resources, which is just not what you want to be doing. Both my loses in SCG Edison ended up with a Mulligan with a questionable hand due to mana (both hands had two playable lands, a Deathrite Shaman and good spells). I was wasted early both games which lead to me playing catch up with the DRS and not proactively playing threats or answers. while testing 24 lands my draws almost never resulted in missing a land drop for at least the first 3 turns. I do believe 24 is the right number of lands for both punishing Jund and regular stock Jund.

Sideboard Changes

I took my ancient grudge out because the only match up's I wanted it in were MUD and Stoneblade. With my experience facing Stoneblade while running punishing fire, the grudge is lackluster and unnecessary. The fires usually can handle their creatures that get equipped as well as Tarmogoyf usually being bigger than their Batterskull germ. Abrupt Decay helps to fight off Umezawa's Jitte or the creatures equipped to it. I don't feel the grudge is needed in my meta at the moment. I also cut 3 Mindbreak Traps for 3 Chalice of the Void, primarily to fight storm and burn. I like sideboard cards that help fight through multiple decks. Chalice at 0 addresses storm's mana artifacts and chalice at 1 stops burn from casting Lighting Bolt, Goblin Guide, Chain Lightning, Grim Lavamancer, Lava Spike, and Figure of Destiny which will allow you to stabilize your life total and start to apply pressure. Sure they have a much of other spells that will hit you but if you stop at least 12 spells thats 1/5 of their threats from hitting you. I do admit the appeal of holding a Mindbreak Trap against storm on the draw is better than chalice, but I felt like I have no cards for burn and I want to bring in something besides Umezawa's Jitte. There are stronger cards to fight burn but then I weaken my matchup against combo, which is more relevant in my meta. I added in the Life from the Loam in the board from the main deck to fight the greedy tri to quad color decks that don't run basics. I don't know if it's needed or necessary, but I do not want to get wasteland locked and I want to take advantage of my opponents greedy mana bases. The last change was dropping down to 1 spell bomb and adding in the 4th duress. I'm sure it's a risky idea lowering my hate count for dredge, but I want to prepare for more popular combos decks such as storm and more importantly Show and Tell variants. I do believe that Show and Tell is Jund's worst matchup. What they are trying to do is so much more powerful then what you're trying to do. Since we, unlike Junk, do not have access to Karakas, Gaddock Teeg or Swords to Plowshares, we need to rely on Discard, Pyroblast, and Liliana sac to fight them. You need to be able to apply quick pressure to their hand and to their life total, or ensure a Lilana in play before the drop a Griselbrand, Emrakul, or Omniscience for a successful match. If dredge becomes a deck that I need to consider seeing more often, I will put more hate it but right now there the boogie man is hiding under the bed.

Barbed Blightning
02-12-2013, 10:23 PM
Why the SB BBE?

Amazingxkcd
02-12-2013, 11:42 PM
I think it is just a concession to what all the earlier lists were running, as all of them had the 3/1 split for the boards.

Darkness
02-12-2013, 11:45 PM
Why the SB BBE?

The Bloodbraid Elf is for the grindy match ups that you encounter. Mirror, Maverick, Death and Taxes, Esper Stoneblade, Nic Fit, Eva Green, Junk, Dead Guy Ale, Goblins, Merfolk, Delver variants or anything where attrition wars are going to decide the match. The card advantage generated by Bloodbraid Elf is so powerful, not to mention that she shines here due to the the fact that there are almost always enemy permanents for your removal to hit via the cascade. Try it and see!

zulander
02-12-2013, 11:56 PM
The Bloodbraid Elf is for the grindy match ups that you encounter. Mirror, Maverick, Death and Taxes, Esper Stoneblade, Nic Fit, Eva Green, Junk, Dead Guy Ale, Goblins, Merfolk, Delver variants or anything where attrition wars are going to decide the match.


Essentially everything other than combo.. which is why it should be in the main.

Darkness
02-13-2013, 12:29 AM
Essentially everything other than combo.. which is why it should be in the main.

True that it does come in for most of the decks, but it is not the most powerful spell in the deck. You don't want to dilute your deck for combo pre board just for the extra cascade effect. An opening hand with two Bloodbraid Elf against combo pre board is miserable. You have a good match up against most of the non combo decks already, especially if you're on the punishing fire plan. I do believe it is a personal, meta call for the 4th in the main or in the board.

Kuma
02-13-2013, 10:48 AM
The reason I heard for Bloodbraid Elf in the board is because it gets better postboard after you've boarded out the cards that aren't relevant in the matchup for ones that are.

Barbed Blightning
02-14-2013, 12:23 PM
Still DTB!

Arsenal
02-14-2013, 12:34 PM
but it is not the most powerful spell in the deck.

As a blue player (both blue control and blue tempo), BBE is literally the only card that gives me nightmares. An argument can be made the DRS is the most powerful spell in Jund, and while DRS is certainly bad, at least my removal and countermagic matter versus it whereas I get 2-for-1ed whenever BBE is cast, and then it just gets worse from there depending on what you flip into off the Cascade trigger. Make no mistake, BBE is to Jund what Jace is to Stoneblade; a 4cc bomb that is an absolute nightmare to be sitting across from.

Note, I'm not commenting on the correct number of BBE (as Jace often is a 3-of in the decks that can properly support him), but just the power level of the card. BBE is by far the most powerful card in Jund, even if the "correct" number to run maindeck is 3.

Barbed Blightning
02-14-2013, 03:52 PM
As a blue player (both blue control and blue tempo), BBE is literally the only card that gives me nightmares. An argument can be made the DRS is the most powerful spell in Jund, and while DRS is certainly bad, at least my removal and countermagic matter versus it whereas I get 2-for-1ed whenever BBE is cast, and then it just gets worse from there depending on what you flip into off the Cascade trigger. Make no mistake, BBE is to Jund what Jace is to Stoneblade; a 4cc bomb that is an absolute nightmare to be sitting across from.

Note, I'm not commenting on the correct number of BBE (as Jace often is a 3-of in the decks that can properly support him), but just the power level of the card. BBE is by far the most powerful card in Jund, even if the "correct" number to run maindeck is 3.

I'm of the persuasion that 4 is correct, since it can absolutely bury your opponent. Sure, two in hand are awful vs combo, but they're godly against aggro and control

razvan
02-14-2013, 11:03 PM
I think that saying that they are bad against combo is because of an imperfect understanding of the match-up.

You need a certain degree of luck to beat combo match-ups. A lot of legacy combo decks can win out of nowhere, including off top-decks, and they have many ways to ensure such a think will happen with frightening frequency. People often say that Liliana of the Veil is one of the best ways to beat combo, but I often question that.

Say you cast her on turn 2, and your opponent discards from 7 cards down to 6. What have you achieved? Not much (nothing if against High Tide). Combo decks need less cards to win against us because we run no counterspells. If they have Top, or Brainstorm, that number is probably a lot lower than it is. Casting a Tarmogoyf in that scenario is probably better because your only chance to win is to get them to zero life.

Now, I am not saying that the discard suite, including Liliana, is something to scoff at, but one very real way to win is to simply aggro them down, and one very real way to lose is to try to play a control deck.

BBE is very good at aggro-ing them down fast. Sometimes, they will just win in response, but that's the way the game goes sometimes. Sometimes you need to just hope they cannot go off and play to that particular out. Not only that sometimes you both are in a top-decking war (your discard, and them dealing with your threats), and BBE is a very nasty thing to be dropping when you both have nothing (2 threats for the price of one?).

I think the deck can only handle 3 4-drops and still be an effective wasteland deck, but I don't think it's because it's not great against combo.

lordofthepit
02-15-2013, 05:14 AM
As a blue player (both blue control and blue tempo), BBE is literally the only card that gives me nightmares. An argument can be made the DRS is the most powerful spell in Jund, and while DRS is certainly bad, at least my removal and countermagic matter versus it whereas I get 2-for-1ed whenever BBE is cast, and then it just gets worse from there depending on what you flip into off the Cascade trigger. Make no mistake, BBE is to Jund what Jace is to Stoneblade; a 4cc bomb that is an absolute nightmare to be sitting across from.

Note, I'm not commenting on the correct number of BBE (as Jace often is a 3-of in the decks that can properly support him), but just the power level of the card. BBE is by far the most powerful card in Jund, even if the "correct" number to run maindeck is 3.

When I play a blue deck against Jund, I ask myself "can this hand beat Punishing Fire inevitability?" by either outracing it or answering it somehow. I'm worried about that more than Bloodbraid Elf. If I'm playing a control deck, this means either sticking a quick Batterskull or an Entreat the Angels, since nothing else will survive. If I'm playing a tempo deck, I'm looking for a Goyf, Goose, or Tombstalker, with a lot of disruption. If I'm playing a combo deck, I just laugh at my hilarious joke and kill them on turn two.

When I play Jund against a blue deck with a bad clock, I will snap-keep if (1) the hand is sick (i.e. perfect curve into Liliana and BBE, backed with discard), (2) the hand has both pieces in it, or (3) the hand has enough removal and disruption for me to eventually draw into both pieces.

alphastryk
02-15-2013, 11:29 AM
Hey guys, some thinking here. I haven't played the deck a ton, but when I have it seems like the only losses I'm having against fair decks are whebn we both end up in topddeck mode. Coming from playing various blue decks with much more card selection in the form of Brainstorm, Ponder, and Sensei's Divining Top, I wonder if there isn't a way to improve the card selection in this kind of deck.

Sylvan Library is obviously great but a bit clunky and you never want to draw a second before you cast the first, so I wouldn't want more than maybe two in my list, but would it be completely unreasonable to run Tops or maybe even Mirri's Guile? I've seen lots of Junk builds run Tops for years to great effect, and Jund has enough fetches to see a lot of cards with Top, so it might be worth trying. It could just be awful, but I figured I'd share my thoughts.

Barbed Blightning
02-15-2013, 11:34 AM
Hey guys, some thinking here. I haven't played the deck a ton, but when I have it seems like the only losses I'm having against fair decks are whebn we both end up in topddeck mode. Coming from playing various blue decks with much more card selection in the form of Brainstorm, Ponder, and Sensei's Divining Top, I wonder if there isn't a way to improve the card selection in this kind of deck.

Sylvan Library is obviously great but a bit clunky and you never want to draw a second before you cast the first, so I wouldn't want more than maybe two in my list, but would it be completely unreasonable to run Tops or maybe even Mirri's Guile? I've seen lots of Junk builds run Tops for years to great effect, and Jund has enough fetches to see a lot of cards with Top, so it might be worth trying. It could just be awful, but I figured I'd share my thoughts.

As a Junk play, I can tell you that Top is actually horrible for both decks. It's a mana sink in the early turns and nowhere near enough card advantage for the late game. Library is the shit.

alphastryk
02-15-2013, 11:41 AM
As a Junk play, I can tell you that Top is actually horrible for both decks. It's a mana sink in the early turns and nowhere near enough card advantage for the late game. Library is the shit.

Fair enough. I've ususally been on the other side of the table with a blue control deck of some kind and its been good because I have actual zero pressure.

jin
02-15-2013, 12:43 PM
Fair enough. I've ususally been on the other side of the table with a blue control deck of some kind and its been good because I have actual zero pressure.

It's a matter of playing style. I know this because my friends and I have experimented with a variety of archetypes and have noticed our decision making skills are fairly different. I'm a control-type player (like you). My friend A is a combo type player. My friend B is a aggro type player.

I tend to cast spells, wait until I have board control and then swing. This sometimes involves plowing first. Friend A tends to play more similarly to me. Friend A tends to be more trigger happy with his cantrips. Friend B tends to swing first, burn annoying stuff afterwards.

Do you see what I mean? Also, the difference between a control player and an aggro player is, that control players tend to think they have to remove everything. Aggro players are just satisfied with burning the most annoying things and just beating down with their creatures. The pressure on the board adds a whole new depth of control.

After thinking about things that way, it might help you answer why you are always falling into 'top-deck-mode'. When I play Jund, I tend to not find myself in 'top-deck-mode' unless I have Liliana on the board, which likely mean I'm winning, or if they have Liliana on the board, which likely means I'm losing. You may consider your strategy again, and then report back with your thoughts on Sylvan Library. With the likes of Dark Confidant, Bloodbraid Elf, Hymn to Tourach, and Punishing Fires, your hand should not be empty often.

DLifshitz
02-15-2013, 02:27 PM
As a Junk play, I can tell you that Top is actually horrible for both decks. It's a mana sink in the early turns and nowhere near enough card advantage for the late game. Library is the shit.

Just today I tested a Jund build with 3 maindeck tops, and I have to disagree. I feel that it has better synergy with Bob because it can be used during one's upkeep, and if necessary, you can put it on top of your library to prevent yourself from losing more than 1 life. I also liked being able to use it repeatedly, e.g. after fetching. Library, or a split of Top and Library, may or may not be somewhat better, but Top certainly is a good card.

@alphastryk
I've never used Mirri's Guile, but simply because it doesn't replace itself, I don't expect it to be very good.

On an unrelated note, I dropped the basic mountain, and I've yet to miss it. It also felt like 3 copies of BBE is the right number.

Barbed Blightning
02-15-2013, 03:20 PM
Just today I tested a Jund build with 3 maindeck tops, and I have to disagree. I feel that it has better synergy with Bob because it can be used during one's upkeep, and if necessary, you can put it on top of your library to prevent yourself from losing more than 1 life. I also liked being able to use it repeatedly, e.g. after fetching. Library, or a split of Top and Library, may or may not be somewhat better, but Top certainly is a good card.

@alphastryk
I've never used Mirri's Guile, but simply because it doesn't replace itself, I don't expect it to be very good.

On an unrelated note, I dropped the basic mountain, and I've yet to miss it. It also felt like 3 copies of BBE is the right number.

Top draws you no cards. That's where it becomes useless. And if you're using it repeatedly, you're just spinning your wheels.

Against control, library is the best card you could ask for. Selection, draw and requires no consumption of resources. And hard to remove.

Three of any draw manipulator in this deck is bad. You want threats and removal--be it discard or destruction.

DLifshitz
02-15-2013, 03:48 PM
And if you're using it repeatedly, you're just spinning your wheels.

Not true. If you spin the top, fetch, and spin the top again, you're seeing new cards, which you can draw into by using the 2nd ability. Library being able to draw extra cards is great of course, but also very costly in terms of life.


And hard to remove.

All too often, control runs Abrupt Decays of their own, or they can Spell Pierce or Spell Snare. Top, on the other hand, is actually harder to deal with, especially if you're on the play. If Library cost 1 to play and 1 to use every time, I would totally prefer Library, but alas.


You want threats and removal--be it discard or destruction.

I don't see why this makes playing 3 copies of a filter bad. In fact, I would say that the ability to filter out discard and removal, especially Bolts and Punishing Fires, when you don't need it is very useful. Top is a good card on its own and we run 7 cards that care about the top card(s) of your library, making it even better. Of course, I wouldn't run more than 2 copies of Library, because it can't be shuffled back.

Barbed Blightning
02-15-2013, 04:06 PM
Not true. If you spin the top, fetch, and spin the top again, you're seeing new cards, which you can draw into by using the 2nd ability. Library being able to draw extra cards is great of course, but also very costly in terms of life.

All too often, control runs Abrupt Decays of their own, or they can Spell Pierce or Spell Snare. Top, on the other hand, is actually harder to deal with, especially if you're on the play. If Library cost 1 to play and 1 to use every time, I would totally prefer Library, but alas.

I don't see why this makes playing 3 copies of a filter bad. In fact, I would say that the ability to filter out discard and removal, especially Bolts and Punishing Fires, when you don't need it is very useful. Top is a good card on its own and we run 7 cards that care about the top card(s) of your library, making it even better. Of course, I wouldn't run more than 2 copies of Library, because it can't be shuffled back.

It's all a lot of "ifs". You fetch and the top 3 can be lands or dead cards. At least with library you can dig.

UW Control doesn't have decay, but they can counter it... leaving hymn and lilly to resolve. Seems like a good trade to me.

The issue with Top, as I said before, is that it doesn't allow you to progress the game state on its own. It ties up precious mana that library doesn't, and with everyone on the wasteland plan, I cannot justify the cost.

Arsenal
02-15-2013, 04:48 PM
It's all a lot of "ifs". You fetch and the top 3 can be lands or dead cards. At least with library you can dig.

UW Control doesn't have decay, but they can counter it... leaving hymn and lilly to resolve. Seems like a good trade to me.

The issue with Top, as I said before, is that it doesn't allow you to progress the game state on its own. It ties up precious mana that library doesn't, and with everyone on the wasteland plan, I cannot justify the cost.

Decay can't be countered.

lordofthepit
02-15-2013, 05:08 PM
Decay can't be countered.

I think he's talking about Sylvan Library.

DLifshitz
02-15-2013, 05:19 PM
Decay can't be countered.

He meant, UW can counter Library, meaning that they won't counter the next noncreature spell.

Anyways, I think this is an interesting and important subject, and I would be interested to hear more people's opinions on Top vs Library, and how many copies of each should be played. In Rock/Junk, people play, or played, up to 3 copies of Top, or a split of Top and Library. The "Dark Horizons" build was at one time very successful, I don't recall Library as being very popular back then, but Dark Horizons did play 3 Tops. Surely in Jund, there's just as much reason to play a few copies of these filters, not just the singleton Library that most Jund pilots currently seem to prefer?

danyul
02-15-2013, 05:24 PM
An unanswered Sylvan Library can take over the game just like an unanswered Bob. And I'm not convinced by the Abrupt Decay argument. They can kill your Bobs too. And your Goyfs. And your Deathrites. I say, make em have it. You play Jund because you want to swing around a big sword. Make your opponent have it. Spell Pierce? They didn't Pierce your discard? You played Sylvan out before playing your discard? What kinda Jund warrior are you? Show me your clan markings.

And with a Deathrite on board, you can mitigate enough lifeloss to make Sylvan Library a goddamn house. Or, if you really have your opponent on the backfoot, just draw and take the damage and beat them up. You don't have that option with a Top. There is no overdrive with Top.

Junk can afford to play around with their top because they top out at CMC 3 with Knight. Or they just drop a Stoneforge and sit on their mana, doing flashy instant speed tricks. Where Jund ideally wants to tap out each turn.

DLifshitz
02-15-2013, 06:12 PM
An unanswered Sylvan Library can take over the game just like an unanswered Bob. And I'm not convinced by the Abrupt Decay argument. They can kill your Bobs too. And your Goyfs. And your Deathrites.

The argument isn't the old "It dies to removal, therefore it's bad" untruth. I'm saying that Library dies to more removal than Top, so saying it's hard to remove is not very convincing for me.


And with a Deathrite on board, you can mitigate enough lifeloss to make Sylvan Library a goddamn house. Or, if you really have your opponent on the backfoot, just draw and take the damage and beat them up. You don't have that option with a Top. There is no overdrive with Top.

Yes, if the game goes well for you, you can afford to draw extra cards from Library. But from what I've heard so far, this is the only area where Library unequivocally beats Top. Mind you, more cards will indeed win you games, but 4 life is a lot! Jund is suicidal enough even without that. I'm not convinced by the argument that Jund taps out whereas Rock doesn't. Jund plays more instant speed removal (3 Decay, up to 3 Bolts, up to 3 Punishing Fires) than Dark Horizons used to (4 Swords), so if anything, it's probably slightly less prone to tapping out.

Did nobody else test Top..?

(NB I'm not trolling or arguing for the sake of the argument, I wouldn't be particularly suprised if it simply turns out that playing 1 Library and no other filters makes for the "winningest" build, but it still feels very counterintuitive to me.)

Barbed Blightning
02-15-2013, 08:58 PM
It's not "winningest," it's that Jund doesn't really need the manipulation as much as other decks since we already run BBE and Bob. Yes, it's important not to kill ourselves with him, but as stated above, DRS already helps.

Even in Junk, top is a durdle card. Almost anyone on that thread will agree that library is better

Darkness
02-15-2013, 11:54 PM
Just today I tested a Jund build with 3 maindeck tops, and I have to disagree. I feel that it has better synergy with Bob because it can be used during one's upkeep, and if necessary, you can put it on top of your library to prevent yourself from losing more than 1 life. I also liked being able to use it repeatedly, e.g. after fetching. Library, or a split of Top and Library, may or may not be somewhat better, but Top certainly is a good card.

@alphastryk
I've never used Mirri's Guile, but simply because it doesn't replace itself, I don't expect it to be very good.

On an unrelated note, I dropped the basic mountain, and I've yet to miss it. It also felt like 3 copies of BBE is the right number.


What are you dropping for the 3 Tops? Are you running the punishing package? Also I do still agree with 3 BBE.

DLifshitz
02-16-2013, 03:35 AM
What are you dropping for the 3 Tops? Are you running the punishing package? Also I do still agree with 3 BBE.

My list:

MD

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay

1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
3 Bayou
2 Badlands
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

SB (untested)

3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Engineered Plague
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Duress
1 Abrupt Decay

So, a stock list except for the inclusion of the Tops.

As for the Punishing Fire package. It's dead against combo, but I think having it allows you to devote more sideboard slots to cards against combo, so I think it evens out in the end.

Darkness
02-16-2013, 09:36 AM
My list:

MD

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay

1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
3 Bayou
2 Badlands
4 Grove of the Burnwillows

SB (untested)

3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Engineered Plague
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Duress
1 Abrupt Decay

So, a stock list except for the inclusion of the Tops.

As for the Punishing Fire package. It's dead against combo, but I think having it allows you to devote more sideboard slots to cards against combo, so I think it evens out in the end.


I can see the tops working for some meta's but against combo heavy I feel like they are just too slow. If they are working for you awesome. Also, do you have a lack of Sneak and Show in your meta at the moment? I ask only because I feel your list is extra light on having tools to battle it, which is fine if it's presence is non-existent. Also I still don't know what Engineered Plagues are used for when one has the Punishing Fire package. People are still telling me that they use it for Stoneblade which boggles my mind. The only deck I feel you truly benefit from having it is combo elves and that's fine if it is a big player in your meta. Also what how do you feel having only 23 lands with Sensei's Divining Top? I felt mana light with 23 lands so upped my count to 24.

mike1987
02-16-2013, 09:54 AM
The show and tell decks and U/W miracles deck in my meta these days started to pack their sideboard with a playset of sanctity. Have anyone experienced a leyline before? The combo matchup just become impossible to win and u/w miracles a very grindy game. We cannot even burn their jace as we cannot target them.

jin
02-16-2013, 12:15 PM
The show and tell decks and U/W miracles deck in my meta these days started to pack their sideboard with a playset of sanctity. Have anyone experienced a leyline before? The combo matchup just become impossible to win and u/w miracles a very grindy game. We cannot even burn their jace as we cannot target them.

Change your SB accordingly. You can play Krosan Grip and Red elemental blast

Kuma
02-16-2013, 01:39 PM
I've been running a Sensei's Divining Top in addition to the standard one Sylvan Library to give me an edge after hands are depleted and the game becomes about who topdecks better. It's been fantastic for me, but I don't think there's a good reason to run more than that.

DLifshitz
02-16-2013, 05:47 PM
I can see the tops working for some meta's but against combo heavy I feel like they are just too slow. If they are working for you awesome. Also, do you have a lack of Sneak and Show in your meta at the moment? I ask only because I feel your list is extra light on having tools to battle it, which is fine if it's presence is non-existent. Also I still don't know what Engineered Plagues are used for when one has the Punishing Fire package. People are still telling me that they use it for Stoneblade which boggles my mind. The only deck I feel you truly benefit from having it is combo elves and that's fine if it is a big player in your meta. Also what how do you feel having only 23 lands with Sensei's Divining Top? I felt mana light with 23 lands so upped my count to 24.

Like I said, the sideboard is untested. I put it together rather hastily. I always thought Engineered Plague is a concession to all things tribal. Goblins, Elves, Zombies (naming Zombie or Spirit), Merfolk (if people keep trying to play it). I think a competent and/or lucky Goblins pilot should be able to win through Punishing Fire alone.

In the places where I'm would play in tournaments, budget-ish decks are likely to be overrepresented, which means facing a lot of Burn, Tribal, Dredge and such. This reminds me, I need to test against Burn and see how it goes.

Darkness
02-17-2013, 09:01 PM
Today I was testing with my Esper Stoneblade friend, nothing out of the ordinary till I suggest to him to use rest in peace as his new hate card. Wasn't a fun battle. Went about 50-50 back and forth. Anyone else finding similiar difficulties with RiP?

Amazingxkcd
02-18-2013, 10:57 AM
krosan's grip or nature's claim should be fine if you really have that much trouble with RiP.

Esper3k
02-18-2013, 11:55 AM
The show and tell decks and U/W miracles deck in my meta these days started to pack their sideboard with a playset of sanctity. Have anyone experienced a leyline before? The combo matchup just become impossible to win and u/w miracles a very grindy game. We cannot even burn their jace as we cannot target them.

Having played Leyline from the combo side, I tend to feel Leyline is a trap that entices you into keeping hands that would normally be terrible hands.

crow_mw
02-18-2013, 01:10 PM
Currently I feel Golgari Charm is a better option than k.grips / nature's claim.

Derm
02-18-2013, 03:46 PM
Has anyone had any success with Ensnaring Bridge in the sideboard? It seems like a reasonable option vs Show and Tell and Sneak Attack, which I've found tough to beat with just discard and REB. I haven't played much with it at all, so this is mostly speculative.

I'm also interested in how people board vs combo. I have so many slots dedicated to helping me survive against unfair.dec that I think I might be overboard/I don't know if I'm taking out stuff I shouldn't.

This is my board:
2 Duress
3 REB
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Krosan Grip/Golgari Charm
2 Ensnaring Bridge

So that's 8 cards vs Storm/Doomsday/other combo, plus 2 Bridge (I imagine) if I think they have a Show and Tell Plan B. I always start by taking out all the burn (3 Lightning Bolt, 3 Punishing Fire) and then Abrupt Decay. I have no idea if this is optimal. What do other people do?

Esper3k
02-18-2013, 03:54 PM
I don't think it's a bad idea to heavily sideboard against combo since Jund beats up on the other "fair" decks.

Against combo, I'd board out Pfires, then Life from the Loam (if you run it), then AD, then Lightning Bolt last. Most combo decks aren't going to have any relevant permanents for you to hit with AD and Lightning Bolt can at least close out a game a turn earlier.

sdematt
02-18-2013, 04:54 PM
Most Ad Nauseum decks go down to 3 or 4 life before killing you, so sometimes you're able to just get them with a Bolt.

-Matt

Derm
02-18-2013, 05:44 PM
Is it a sin to side out BBE?

Darkness
02-18-2013, 05:44 PM
Most Ad Nauseum decks go down to 3 or 4 life before killing you, so sometimes you're able to just get them with a Bolt.

-Matt

Bolt is more significant than lets say Abrupt Decay, as a TES player I would try to play around Bolt rather than worrying about getting my LED or Lotus Petal's Decayed. Also I've had some success with Chalice of the Void against storm. Has anyone else tried out chalice. It's definitely not as surprising as Mindbreak Trap, but if the storm player is smart they will cast Silence to avoid MBT and Bolts. Chalice even at zero decreases their explosive starts. The matchup against TES is about 50/50 post board, and is heavily dependent on play vs. draw.

Darkness
02-18-2013, 05:58 PM
Has anyone had any success with Ensnaring Bridge in the sideboard? It seems like a reasonable option vs Show and Tell and Sneak Attack, which I've found tough to beat with just discard and REB. I haven't played much with it at all, so this is mostly speculative.

I'm also interested in how people board vs combo. I have so many slots dedicated to helping me survive against unfair.dec that I think I might be overboard/I don't know if I'm taking out stuff I shouldn't.

This is my board:
2 Duress
3 REB
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Krosan Grip/Golgari Charm
2 Ensnaring Bridge

So that's 8 cards vs Storm/Doomsday/other combo, plus 2 Bridge (I imagine) if I think they have a Show and Tell Plan B. I always start by taking out all the burn (3 Lightning Bolt, 3 Punishing Fire) and then Abrupt Decay. I have no idea if this is optimal. What do other people do?


My current 15 Sideboard

4x Duress <--- Non Creature Combo
3x Chalice of the Void <-----Storm and Burn
3x Pyroblast <-----Blue based combo and heavy blue decks
1x Bloodbraid Elf <------Against fair decks
1x Life from the Loam <------Against fair decks when I can lock them or decks that play zero basics
1x Maelstrom Pulse <-------An answer all card for random problems and against decks that generate lots of tokens
1x Nihil Spellbomb <------Graveyard Hate
1x Umezawa's Jitte<------- Against Fair decks and Burn

So far, for my meta, I haven't felt a strong need to change the board at the moment. The worst card in the Sideboard is the Nihil Spellbomb. Other than that I feel very comfortable with battling both fair and unfair decks.

jin
02-20-2013, 01:29 AM
Chalice even at zero decreases their explosive starts. The matchup against TES is about 50/50 post board, and is heavily dependent on play vs. draw.

I have to disagree. Chalice is nothing but a hinderance. TES can still win through a chalice at 0 even without answering the chalice. It can also win by destroying the chalice. Currenly, post-board, TES has 6 ways to destroy your chalice, if it chooses to. 50/50 is a stretch. I'd say 40-60 at best. That is if you include your Pyroblasts, duresses, and hymns.


My current 15 Sideboard

4x Duress <--- Non Creature Combo
3x Chalice of the Void <-----Storm and Burn
3x Pyroblast <-----Blue based combo and heavy blue decks
1x Bloodbraid Elf <------Against fair decks
1x Life from the Loam <------Against fair decks when I can lock them or decks that play zero basics
1x Maelstrom Pulse <-------An answer all card for random problems and against decks that generate lots of tokens
1x Nihil Spellbomb <------Graveyard Hate
1x Umezawa's Jitte<------- Against Fair decks and Burn

So far, for my meta, I haven't felt a strong need to change the board at the moment. The worst card in the Sideboard is the Nihil Spellbomb. Other than that I feel very comfortable with battling both fair and unfair decks.

You have no graveyard hate outside a miser Nihil Spellbomb. That just seems awkward considering you can't find it if you need it.

Barbed Blightning
02-20-2013, 04:38 PM
I have to disagree. Chalice is nothing but a hinderance. TES can still win through a chalice at 0 even without answering the chalice. It can also win by destroying the chalice. Currenly, post-board, TES has 6 ways to destroy your chalice, if it chooses to. 50/50 is a stretch. I'd say 40-60 at best. That is if you include your Pyroblasts, duresses, and hymns.

You have no graveyard hate outside a miser Nihil Spellbomb. That just seems awkward considering you can't find it if you need it.

But that's what you want vs storm: enough time to make a touchdown.

Anyone considered leyline of the void as a four of in the side?

Darkness
02-20-2013, 09:41 PM
I have to disagree. Chalice is nothing but a hinderance. TES can still win through a chalice at 0 even without answering the chalice. It can also win by destroying the chalice. Currenly, post-board, TES has 6 ways to destroy your chalice, if it chooses to. 50/50 is a stretch. I'd say 40-60 at best. That is if you include your Pyroblasts, duresses, and hymns.



You have no graveyard hate outside a miser Nihil Spellbomb. That just seems awkward considering you can't find it if you need it.


You're Probably right about the Storm Matchup and the probabilities. I'm over estimating on my lucky wins against Bryant at Edison and my Testing against my friend back at Home. Against a strong storm player and without the nut draw on Jund's part It's probably in Storm's favor. I have decided to adopt the chalice's because they give me something against burn. I don't like playing with Sideboard cards that are too narrow. Chalice helps against storm and burn. Neither is optimal but it's something against both.

As far as my lack of graveyard hate, that is primarily based on my meta and the lack of graveyard decks. When it becomes relevant again I will prepare for it, until then I feel comfortable with just the Deathrite Shaman's and Nihil Spellbomb.

jin
02-20-2013, 10:11 PM
But that's what you want vs storm: enough time to make a touchdown.

Anyone considered leyline of the void as a four of in the side?

Yeah, all you can hope to do with Chalice is slow them down enough to win. I don't disagree with that.


You're Probably right about the Storm Matchup and the probabilities. I'm over estimating on my lucky wins against Bryant at Edison and my Testing against my friend back at Home. Against a strong storm player and without the nut draw on Jund's part It's probably in Storm's favor. I have decided to adopt the chalice's because they give me something against burn. I don't like playing with Sideboard cards that are too narrow. Chalice helps against storm and burn. Neither is optimal but it's something against both.

As far as my lack of graveyard hate, that is primarily based on my meta and the lack of graveyard decks. When it becomes relevant again I will prepare for it, until then I feel comfortable with just the Deathrite Shaman's and Nihil Spellbomb.

I also am not a fan of narrow sideboard cards. I just merely wanted to voice out my opposition to the misleading 50-50 statement. Regarding your graveyard hate, if you aren't going to need it, then why play any at all? I hardly think Deathrite Shaman is graveyard hate.

Shawon
02-21-2013, 10:22 PM
I don't think Nihil Spellbomb is sufficient graveyard hate at all. I think either black Leyline or Extirpate are better fits. Leyline is Leyline, and Extirpates are pretty good at completely shutting down that new Tin Fins deck, which is surprisingly fast against DRS.

Dead_Style
02-23-2013, 05:41 AM
I won the LCL of 132 players with this list of jund.


1 Grim Lavamancer
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

2 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire

3 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

2 Sylvan Library

3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
3 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs

2 Ancient Grudge
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Choke
1 Flametongue Kavu
3 Extirpate
4 Duress

Pairings:

1- Bant 2-0
2- BUG Tempo 2-1
3- Omnitell 2-0
4- Junk 2-1
5- Canadian ******** 2-1
6- 1-1
7- 1-1

Top16ļ Stoneblade 2-0
Top8ļ Bug Tempo 2-1
Top4ļ Canadian ******** 2-1
Final: Stoneblade 2-0

The kavu is a joke among friends, forget xD. The senseis divining top never would play.

-> http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10203

Darkness
02-23-2013, 09:45 AM
I won the LCL of 132 players with this list of jund.


1 Grim Lavamancer
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

2 Lightning Bolt
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire

3 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

2 Sylvan Library

3 Liliana of the Veil

1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
3 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs

2 Ancient Grudge
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Choke
1 Flametongue Kavu
3 Extirpate
4 Duress

Pairings:

1- Bant 2-0
2- BUG Tempo 2-1
3- Omnitell 2-0
4- Junk 2-1
5- Canadian ******** 2-1
6- 1-1
7- 1-1

Top16ļ Stoneblade 2-0
Top8ļ Bug Tempo 2-1
Top4ļ Canadian ******** 2-1
Final: Stoneblade 2-0

The kavu is a joke among friends, forget xD. The senseis divining top never would play.

-> http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10203

Congratulations on your undefeated victory. This is the exact reason you play Jund, it stomps on all the fair decks. Do you remember how the Omnitell match went? I'm usually afraid of these decks (mainly Sneak and Show, due to it's speed.) Did you use the extirpates or Choke?

Adryan
02-23-2013, 01:51 PM
Congratulations on your undefeated victory. This is the exact reason you play Jund, it stomps on all the fair decks. Do you remember how the Omnitell match went? I'm usually afraid of these decks (mainly Sneak and Show, due to it's speed.) Did you use the extirpates or Choke?

Jund doesn't stomp on all the fair decks. Depends how they are build. I tested about 30 games against Jund with my new BUG midrange/control list and it's very easy for me to beat jund . you just have to build it correctly.

What do you think is the more popular Jund list? Punishing Fire Jund or normal Jund?

Amazingxkcd
02-23-2013, 03:18 PM
Pfire builds seem to be performing well at the moment.

Adryan
02-23-2013, 04:15 PM
Pfire builds seem to be performing well at the moment.

I like cookies

Lt. Quattro
02-24-2013, 02:20 AM
Jund doesn't stomp on all the fair decks. Depends how they are build. I tested about 30 games against Jund with my new BUG midrange/control list and it's very easy for me to beat jund . you just have to build it correctly.

What do you think is the more popular Jund list? Punishing Fire Jund or normal Jund?

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that punishing fire jund is more popular, because it helps you stomp on all the fair decks.

Darkness
02-24-2013, 08:23 AM
Jund doesn't stomp on all the fair decks. Depends how they are build. I tested about 30 games against Jund with my new BUG midrange/control list and it's very easy for me to beat jund . you just have to build it correctly.

What do you think is the more popular Jund list? Punishing Fire Jund or normal Jund?

Is the Jund player using Punishing Fire. Punishing Fire gives Jund inevitability against control decks and gives aggro deck a recurring threat that needs to be addressed if they plan on beating Jund with just creatures. I do believe that Punishing Jund is much stronger than Regular Jund and I would recommend everyone not trying it give it some serious play testing to voice their opinion. What is your BUG control list you've put together?

jin
02-25-2013, 09:32 AM
Is the Jund player using Punishing Fire. Punishing Fire gives Jund inevitability against control decks and gives aggro deck a recurring threat that needs to be addressed if they plan on beating Jund with just creatures. I do believe that Punishing Jund is much stronger than Regular Jund and I would recommend everyone not trying it give it some serious play testing to voice their opinion. What is your BUG control list you've put together?

I have been playing with Punishing Fires ever since it was mentioned in the old thread. I have been an advocate of it ever since. I don't even know how normal Jund can be compared with it. There is no advantage that Normal Jund brings. The deck is simply stronger with Punishing Fires. It's a fair mid-ranged deck after all, and like Punishing Maverick that Gerry T. piloted, Punishing Jund needs the inevitability to beat both the control match up and gain an advantage in the aggro one. Grim Lavamancer is far too fragile to be effective in this type of deck.

I don't understand (and have never understood) why 'regularly Jund' would be stronger. Punishing Jund is the most optimal Jund. There is no better choice.

sdematt
02-25-2013, 01:50 PM
I think if you're going to run non-Punishing Jund, I think that's fine, but there's certainly long term value gains by running Punishing Fire Combo against much of the format at the moment. I wouldn't leave home without it in any RGB deck right now (unless I could still play RGB Survival again).

-Matt

lordofthepit
02-25-2013, 02:18 PM
I have been playing with Punishing Fires ever since it was mentioned in the old thread. I have been an advocate of it ever since. I don't even know how normal Jund can be compared with it. There is no advantage that Normal Jund brings. The deck is simply stronger with Punishing Fires. It's a fair mid-ranged deck after all, and like Punishing Maverick that Gerry T. piloted, Punishing Jund needs the inevitability to beat both the control match up and gain an advantage in the aggro one. Grim Lavamancer is far too fragile to be effective in this type of deck.

I don't understand (and have never understood) why 'regularly Jund' would be stronger. Punishing Jund is the most optimal Jund. There is no better choice.

I've been a huge advocate of Punishing Fire ever since I was running it in Zoo, and I certainly agree that Punishing Jund is the better build in most metas.

However, in a combo-infested meta, it's a bit of a liability, since it prevents you from reliably getting to BB for Hymn and Lililana or running as many Wastelands as you would want unless you cut more business. Of course, in a combo-infested meta (which my LGS has turned into), I would simply play a different deck.

aznepyon7
02-25-2013, 04:47 PM
I don't understand (and have never understood) why 'regularly Jund' would be stronger. Punishing Jund is the most optimal Jund. There is no better choice.

Combo; that's probably the biggest reason. Combo isn't that big right now so PF Jund is the way to go but when it shifts, Jund is arguably better.

Barbed Blightning
02-25-2013, 04:49 PM
Combo; that's probably the biggest reason. Combo isn't that big right now so PF Jund is the way to go but when it shifts, Jund is arguably better.

How though? You don't cut into your discards, except maybe one Lilly

aznepyon7
02-25-2013, 04:55 PM
How though? You don't cut into your discards, except maybe one Lilly

Grove of the Burnwillows instead of a B source when you need the discard. Also not only are you cutting one Lilly, you're losing the Bolts which earlier in the thread, can win you the game against a mediocre TES player. That I'm not too sure about, but I don't think PF Jund is faster than the normal Jund, just overall stronger perhaps.

EDIT: grammar

Barbed Blightning
02-25-2013, 05:20 PM
grove of the burnwillows instead of a B source when you need the discard. Also not only are you cutting one Lilly, you're losing the Bolts which earlier in the thread, can win you the game against a mediocre TES player. That I'm not too sure about, but I don't think PF Jund is faster than the normal Jund, just overall stronger perhaps.

The loss is marginal, though. And by keeping your fetch count decent you're able to hit discard just fine.

TES rarely has mediocre players, since those who play it know what they are doing most of the time.

I used to think vanilla jund was better, but now I'm leaning to pfire more and more

aznepyon7
02-25-2013, 05:34 PM
The loss is marginal, though. And by keeping your fetch count decent you're able to hit discard just fine.

TES rarely has mediocre players, since those who play it know what they are doing most of the time.

I used to think vanilla jund was better, but now I'm leaning to pfire more and more

PF is the better version in an aggressive meta but I'm not convinced it's the better one against combo. The inability to hit BB when you need it, even for a turn, is game against a good storm player. Then again it's not like either is awesome against combo.

Esper3k
02-25-2013, 06:01 PM
IMO, Pfires is better against aggro & control, but worse against combo (but not that much worse). Overall, I believe the strength you gain from it far outweigh the cons to playing it (it's not like the combo matchup in Jund was that great anyways).

The fundamental parts vs combo in Pfires Jund vs regular Jund are still there - you run the same disruption and can run the same # of Lilianas. The small damage difference between Pfires and Bolt isn't normally going to make much of a difference vs combo.

Barbed Blightning
02-25-2013, 07:06 PM
IMO, Pfires is better against aggro & control, but worse against combo (but not that much worse). Overall, I believe the strength you gain from it far outweigh the cons to playing it (it's not like the combo matchup in Jund was that great anyways).

The fundamental parts vs combo in Pfires Jund vs regular Jund are still there - you run the same disruption and can run the same # of Lilianas. The small damage difference between Pfires and Bolt isn't normally going to make much of a difference vs combo.

Precisely. Couldn't have stated it better.

aznepyon7
02-25-2013, 10:27 PM
The fundamental parts vs combo in Pfires Jund vs regular Jund are still there - you run the same disruption and can run the same # of Lilianas. The small damage difference between Pfires and Bolt isn't normally going to make much of a difference vs combo.

The decklist is really packed so the wiggle room isn't great. I think the difference between the PF and the bolts or is the ability to produce BB is going to be minor as well.

But it would be nice to have more comments from people who have played both versions of the deck extensively against a combo heavy meta to comment.

jin
02-26-2013, 02:58 AM
IMO, Pfires is better against aggro & control, but worse against combo (but not that much worse). Overall, I believe the strength you gain from it far outweigh the cons to playing it (it's not like the combo matchup in Jund was that great anyways).

The fundamental parts vs combo in Pfires Jund vs regular Jund are still there - you run the same disruption and can run the same # of Lilianas. The small damage difference between Pfires and Bolt isn't normally going to make much of a difference vs combo.


Precisely. Couldn't have stated it better.

Ditto. I go for double black anyway. Running 4x Grove of the Burnwillows has not stopped me from casting Hymn to Tourach on turn 2.

lordofthepit
02-26-2013, 04:32 PM
Jund doesn't stomp on all the fair decks. Depends how they are build. I tested about 30 games against Jund with my new BUG midrange/control list and it's very easy for me to beat jund . you just have to build it correctly.

If you have a BUG midrange deck that stomps Jund, maintains BUG's solid advantage over UW control and various tempo decks, and doesn't suck ass against combo, then you've solved the format. Do you have a decklist?

Adryan
02-27-2013, 09:14 AM
If you have a BUG midrange deck that stomps Jund, maintains BUG's solid advantage over UW control and various tempo decks, and doesn't suck ass against combo, then you've solved the format. Do you have a decklist?

Maverick, Punishing Maverick and Junk are bad matchups for Jund. I don't know why it's so extraordinary that BUG Control/Midrange can have a positive matchup against Jund. Play sweepers, play manlands with life from the loam. Just generate Card Advantage and reach the lategame. Hymn to tourach and BBE CA engine is worse than:

1. Sweepers
2. Manlands with life from the loam (making also CA) and make sure that Liliana trades 1:1 after a sacrifice.
3. Snapcaster Mage, flashback Abrupt decay while blocking Bloodbraid Elf.

BUT Jund with Punishing Fire is completely different. It's a tough matchup and a lot harder to beat than normal Jund.

I would also count UR Delver as a fair deck. PoP and stuff just destroy Jund.

Against Punishing Fire Jund i would play something like that. I have not tested it yet.

Creatures

3Snapcaster Mage
1Vendilion Clique

Removal

3Abrupt decay
2Innocent Blood
2Pernicious Deed
1 Disfigure
2 Damnation
2 Dismember

Counter
2 Counterspell

"Draw"
4Brainstorm
3Standstill
2Life from the Loam

Discard
3Thoughtseize

Walkerz

2Liliana of the Veil
4Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands
2Tropical Island
4Underground Sea
3Mishra's Factory
4Verdant Catacombs
4Misty Rainforest
1Polluted Delta
2Bayou
3Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit

klaus
02-27-2013, 10:40 AM
Creatures

3Snapcaster Mage
1Vendilion Clique

Removal

3Abrupt decay
2Innocent Blood
2Pernicious Deed
1 Disfigure
2 Damnation
2 Dismember

Counter
2 Counterspell

"Draw"
4Brainstorm
3Standstill
2Life from the Loam

Discard
3Thoughtseize

Walkerz

2Liliana of the Veil
4Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands
2Tropical Island
4Underground Sea
3Mishra's Factory
4Verdant Catacombs
4Misty Rainforest
1Polluted Delta
2Bayou
3Wasteland
1 Creeping Tar Pit

8 non-blue lands / 7 XUU spells (not counting Snappy [+ BS/CS]) looks suboptimal to me. What's your reasoning behind that manabase?

Barbed Blightning
02-27-2013, 10:54 AM
Not to be a stickler, but this IS the jund thread. Not Team America