[Deck] UWR Delver

[Einherjer]

Patriot


http://i50.tinypic.com/2llytm9.jpg

What is Patriot?

Patriot or UWR Delver is a tempo-based that used many of the best spells in Legacy, to create a very flexible and adaptable deck. One the one side it's a Tempo deck with Delver of Secrets, Daze, Wasteland and Spell Pierce while it has elements that are more controlish than everything else, such as Stoneforge Mystic into Batterskull, True-Name Nemesis and Swords to Plowshares.

This dual-nature makes this deck very adaptable to various game-situations, yet sacrifaces the very own nature of both strategy-branches, should they be needed by themselves in a certain match-up. It basically gives up superiority in certain MUs to achieve a wide ranging number of even MUs, all across the MU.

How did it start?

Patriot, or UWR Delver, or 'Murica or whatever it was/is called started off as a pure tempodeck, utilizing the real tempopackage of Wasteland, Daze and Stifle - alongside quick one-drops like Delver of Secrets and outstandingly fast but yet fragile cards like Geist of Saint Traft. If you're interested ou can read this article by Bryant Cook: http://jupitergames.info/articles/2013/52861/cooks-kitchen-murica-nelc-02022013

The list below is by Dustin Taylor: http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?event_ID=20&start_date=2013-02-10&end_date=2013-02-10&state=NJ&city=Edison&order_1=finish&limit=8&action=Show+Decks


4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Vendilion Clique


1 Island
3 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland


4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Ponder


2 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Rest in Peace
1 Disenchant
1 Force of Will
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Spell Pierce
1 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Vendilion Clique


Okay, enough history lesson for now. With the print of True-Name Nemesis this deck became what it is. A blue-white-red hybrid, that was popularized by Owen Turtenwalds victory at GP Washington DC. http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12214&iddeck=89514

1 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Volcanic Island
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Pierce
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Arid Mesa
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 4 Meddling Mage
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Wear // Tear
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Grim Lavamancer
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 True-Name Nemesis
SB: 1 Sword of Feast and Famine

So now they added Stoneforge Mystic and True-Name Nemesis to the deck which resulted in the deck withdrawing from the realms of Tempo, while intruding the lands of Control more and more - stopping somewhere in between. True-Name Nemesis gave the deck a very potent lategame that could either be sent on defense duties or provide an unstoppable attacking force. If one should able to equip Nemesis with any of the equipments is generally game over some way or another.

During this time frame Patriot was the deck #1, publics new enemy, which lead to the meta as a whole being prepared for Patriot. Nemesis wasn't the I-Win button anymore as more and more Lilianas of the Veil showed up, paired with cards like Golgari Charm, Marsh Causualities or Holy Light. As soon as the meta had adapted to Patriot it fell from place #1, but still remains a force in the top-tier metagame of todays Legacy.

Here is a collection of useful links:

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/owens-a-win-uwr-delver/

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/owens-a-win-delver-in-dc-gp-dc-1st/

http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-owen-legacy-uwr-delver/

http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-owen-legacy-uwr-delver-2/

http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-lsv-legacy-uwr-delver/

Greetings

[Arsenal]

I've seen lists running 3x Force of Will, and obviously that isn't due to a low blue card count, which I'm curious of. Do people just not want the card disadvantage with so much Black discard running rampant or is it because they feel if something does resolve, they can deal with it via Bolt/StP/Grim? I'm slightly confused why a tempo deck would want access to less free spells. Force of Will is an auto 4-of for me in any deck running enough blue to support it. I understand in Esper Blade (running a low blue count + 1cc discard to supplement) that you'd get away with 3, but not in a tempo deck where we're trying to develop our board in the early stages.

[Mastikor]

I'm interested in the deck as well. One of my favorite color combination, and seems to have lot of anwsers against the field (many counters and removal). One thing I noticed, it is too threat-light IMO. Atm I'm trying Stoneforge package, basicly cutting Stifles. What are your oppinions on that? I understand Stifle is great (it always is), but I think this deck has slightly different approach then RUG for example. It is more mana intensive and tends to tap out more often (Geist, Lavamancer...). Also, STPs are somewhat anti-tempo (still much better then PtE), so I like this deck to be a bit more midrange. That way, it has more different angles of attack. Currently testing:

4 Delver
4 Stoneforge
3 Lavamancer
3 Geist

4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Bolt
4 Swords
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
1 Jace (random, for lategame)

19 lands, including 1 Island, 1 Karakas and 4 Wastelands.

Sideboard would probably consist of some number of RiPs, REBs, Sulfur Elementals and other usual stuff. I'd really like to try Meddling Mages (mostly vs combo) and some Diverts (Jund?)

[Einherjer]

@Force of Will - count:
I agree, that a tempolist should start off with 4 Force of Will most of the time. Though, if you look at Dustins list, I believe the lack of the 4th copy derives from a lack of designing space. You don't really want to cut any other card, Ponder is probably at an all time low, with 3(2 sounds too suicidial to me, tbh), all the other cards are on the lowest level, if you ask me. Though I could see the option to cut a removal or something for the 4th Force, if your meta somehow warrants it, but in any way - even with 3 Force of Will our combo-MU is good. And yes, I know you havn't been referring to combo, but to tempo in general.

@Stoneforge Mystic:
I've been playing this one a few weeks earlier (before Bryant Cook published his article), and moved the card to the sideboard after I read the article, and now I've dismissed the Mystic alltogether. Why? Well, sometimes a so called "Aggro-Mystic" wins games, Stoneblade players will know what this means. In reverse, this does not mean, that an aggressive Mystic is good, most of the time. It actually just is in very rare occasions. This leads to playing more lands(cause either Mystic or Skull be dealt with, for sure), jaces, cutting the tempoelements and in the end to just playing UWr Stoneblade, which is a valid deck in any way. But this is not, what we are talking about here.

Greetings

[Arsenal]

I'd cut a Pierce before a FoW, but that's just me, especially if you're playing 4 Brainstorm + 3 Ponder for digging. Anyway, I think the numbers can flux and the card choices are pretty solid at this point. It really boils down to more players playing it and seeing what results are put up. The 4th place SCG Edison finish is promising.

[Einherjer]

Probably it really just boils down to personal preference, concerning the 4th Force / 3rd cc1 Counter - but I'd really prefer Spell Pierce right now, there are just too many targets you want to counter, while not 1-2ing yourself.

I was testing Dustins list since Monday, 4h per day and I gotta admit I am unhappy with the 1of Vendilion Clique, I always feel like playing 2 was the better way, or playing none. What are your guys thoughts in Vendilion Clique? It is very important, as a cc3 flash creature, with great utility in control/combo-MUs, but very often it is just a chumpblocker, that doesn't bash for as much as Geist does, when we are on the beatdown...

Greetings

[maiko1993]

Probably it really just boils down to personal preference, concerning the 4th Force / 3rd cc1 Counter - but I'd really prefer Spell Pierce right now, there are just too many targets you want to counter, while not 1-2ing yourself.

I was testing Dustins list since Monday, 4h per day and I gotta admit I am unhappy with the 1of Vendilion Clique, I always feel like playing 2 was the better way, or playing none. What are your guys thoughts in Vendilion Clique? It is very important, as a cc3 flash creature, with great utility in control/combo-MUs, but very often it is just a chumpblocker, that doesn't bash for as much as Geist does, when we are on the beatdown...

Greetings

MD
-1 Vendilion Clique
+1 Geist of Saint Traft

SB
-1 Geist of Saint Traft
+1 Vendilion Clique

simple like that. i would try like this, maybe without the stifles like the Jupiter article writer said that this is the card with lesser value in MD in various matchups, then it should be worth the cut for the 4th force and other spells.

[Arsenal]

Played a bunch of games against Jund (non PFire build) and did well. Grim Lavamancer is by far the MVP versus Jund, followed closely by Geist of Saint Traft. I can't believe how insane an active Lavamancer is and my opponent was resorting to using his dead Abrupt Decays on the Geist angel token. I lost a few games to some tough draws (that's my own fault for only playing 2 Ponder), but based off my testing, albeit limited, I was very pleased with how well UWR Delver does against Jund. I take back what I said about Stifle, omg that card is soooo live; Stifling the Cascade trigger, then pinging his BBE with my Lavamancer was the highlight of my night.

Played with 2 Misdirection in the SB and brought both in, thinking that I could do some tricky stuff with his REBs, Abrupt Decays, Hymns, etc... god that card was awful. Everytime I drew it and had the ability to cast it, I wanted it to be ANYTHING else, a Jace, a Clique, a Venser, a Spell Pierce, ANYTHING. Those are def getting cut as it was mostly worthless in the matchup I thought it would have the most value.

EDIT: Regarding Clique, he was 50/50 for me. At times he was great, others he was so-so and wished he was another Geist. I often find myself swinging with Geist into certain his death, let him die, then play another Geist post-combat; I just need an angel token to get there once or twice, then Grim Lavamancer + Bolt does the rest most games. 3x Geist allows me to do this, but I'm flirting with 4x Geist just because I want him almost everytime on turn 3 and multiples can be used as FoW food or in the common combat situation I decribed. Thoughts on going with a 4 Delver, 4 Lavamancer, 4 Geist creature base? Have others been finding Clique to be better than the 4th Geist?

[Ruta Barracuda]

What I can say for now(feel free to comment on any single point) are those points:

1) UWR Delver deck struggles to beat shrouded creatures like Nimble Mongoose --> Postboard 3-4 Rest in Peace should take care of that.
2) UWR Delver beats most combodecks easily.
3) UWR Delver has the best answer, to big creatures, of all tempodecks, so Swords to Plowshares is worth the antisynergy.
4) UWR Delver plays some anti-synergetic spells, like Swords to Plowshares + Delver/Bolt/Beatdown in general, though the upsides might weigh more.
5) UWR Delver dodges most of the graveyard, only using it for Grim Lavamancer, making it persistent to Deathrite Shamans splashdamage.



1) Rest in Peace is nice in the sb with this list, as it wrecks most graveyard-based strategies. Between that and Tormod's Crypt, there shouldn't be much issue. In Modern, we frequently run Relic of Progenitus in an attempt to play around anti-synergy with our 3-4 MD Snapcaster Mage.

3)&4) Regarding the antisynergy of Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile may be a less anti-synergistic option. It takes away some of the tempo you've had going, but you do have board control. With the Stifle/Wasteland package, this shouldn't be THAT big of a deal.




I was testing Dustins list since Monday, 4h per day and I gotta admit I am unhappy with the 1of Vendilion Clique, I always feel like playing 2 was the better way, or playing none. What are your guys thoughts in Vendilion Clique? It is very important, as a cc3 flash creature, with great utility in control/combo-MUs, but very often it is just a chumpblocker, that doesn't bash for as much as Geist does, when we are on the beatdown...


In Modern it's usually played as a 2-of, and I agree - depending on your metagame, either play 2-of or relegate it to the sideboard.

[Arsenal]

In a meta full of DRS and where you're trying to keep your opponent off of 4 mana as long as possible, Path to Exile isn't the best option. I'd gladly have my opponent gain some life and be stuck on 2-3 mana in most cases. Wasteland, Spell Pierce, Stifle, and Daze all become much, much worse if you're Pathing your opponent's blockers or their 1st turn DRS, etc.

[Einherjer]

While Swords to Plowshares provides some antisynergie, Path to Exile provides MASSIVE antisynergie. It's just so territerribad, it screws with all of our gameplan. Giving them a few life means we have to swing a little more often, while our opponent is low on lands and has to play in our taxing counters, but if we give him lands, he can play Swords to Plowshares Pierce+Dazeproof or things of the like... This is not Modern, I don't think that Path to Exile is playable at all in this deck, at maximum in the side, but I think we got better options there too.

Is anyone else trying to push this deck? What is your current list? Anything special?

Greetings

[Arsenal]

My Jund opponent saw Dustin playing UWR Delver on the SCG Edison stream, but didn't get to "see" it as Dustin's opponent was combo iirc, and he was impressed at how dominant UWR Delver was over his Jund deck. The guy is a good player too, so it made me hopeful that this will catch on. I'm going to test extensively versus Esperblade next week, but I feel good about the matchup as Grim Lavamancer > all their creatures and they don't have a good maindeck out to Geist other than a 1-of Supreme Verdict.

Current list:

1 Vendilion Clique
3 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Grim Lavamancer

2 Ponder

2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

1 Island
3 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland

Sideboard is currently in flux, but that's my list. I'm debating about shaving a card here or there to make room for additional Ponder and/or Spell Pierce, but it ran pretty well last night, so I think I may just keep it as is for now.

[MD.Ghost]

I also played UW Tempo (with Stoneforge) - so the UWR Tempo tech is a nice meta call.

Red offers some good Spells (Lavamancer, Bolt, Red Blast) so i would test this one:

3 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Snapcaster Mage

2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

1 Island
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Meddling Mage
2 Jötun Grunt
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Disenchant
2 Spell Pierce
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Detention Sphere

This Deck has to work out the creature slots, i find 3 Geist of Saint Traft feels right, besides Delver and Lavamancer, what is the next real creature? (without a green gofy or a black tombstalker)

Vendilion Clique
Snapcaster
Jötun Grunt
Figure of Destiny
Stoneforge (which tends to a midrange option)

or Playset
Geist of Saint Traft
Grim Lavamancer

I wouldn´t go under 12 Creatures (similiar to RUG), with Abrupt Decay all around, your creatures (besides Geist) will die - a single Delver won´t be enough against Jund etc.

[Ruta Barracuda]

In a meta full of DRS and where you're trying to keep your opponent off of 4 mana as long as possible, Path to Exile isn't the best option. I'd gladly have my opponent gain some life and be stuck on 2-3 mana in most cases. Wasteland, Spell Pierce, Stifle, and Daze all become much, much worse if you're Pathing your opponent's blockers or their 1st turn DRS, etc.


While Swords to Plowshares provides some antisynergie, Path to Exile provides MASSIVE antisynergie. It's just so territerribad, it screws with all of our gameplan. Giving them a few life means we have to swing a little more often, while our opponent is low on lands and has to play in our taxing counters, but if we give him lands, he can play Swords to Plowshares Pierce+Dazeproof or things of the like... This is not Modern, I don't think that Path to Exile is playable at all in this deck, at maximum in the side, but I think we got better options there too.


Well, I'd rather burn a DRS or other threat rather than StP or Path any day of the week. When I wrote that, I had late game with an opponent having an active Goyf or Tombstalker in mind; StP would set us back at least a turn, whereas Path could allow us to win. Early on, yeah I agree that Path probably isn't playable.

This discussion is pretty helpful, though - I'm currently trying to make the transition from Modern to Legacy, and I mainly play tempo-based strategies in the form of UR Delver and UWR Delver.




This Deck has to work out the creature slots, i find 3 Geist of Saint Traft feels right, besides Delver and Lavamancer, what is the next real creature? (without a green gofy or a black tombstalker)

Vendilion Clique
Snapcaster
Jötun Grunt
Figure of Destiny
Stoneforge (which tends to a midrange option)


Snapcaster Mage is definitely a good option, as is Vendilion Clique . Figure of Destiny is a nice option to test out to establish board presence. Having free counters plus a manabase that can grow him up to 4/4 with ease makes me want to test him out at least.

[Arsenal]

You want to save your Bolts as long as possible as you often can win games by getting in a Bolt or two to the dome instead of burning it on a creature. Use those StPs whenever you can, then move onto using burn. And I personally think we should focus on maximizing the early game (turn 1-3) as opposed to gameplanning for the late game where the deck does significantly worse.

[wweenieking]

Hello all, I thought I would give my 2 cents. I am very good friends with Dustin and when it comes to events he gives me modern and standard lists and I'm the legacy guy. Earlier last week I asked him what he wanted to play and he said not to ask him anymore and that I'm the legacy guy and its my job to tell him what to play. lol Well when I saw Paulo's top 8 list from Jupiter it reminded me of a deck I had success with in the past.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=44600

I stopped playing this deck because nimble mongoose was a beating, but now rug is on the decline. I knew combo was on the rise due to its jund and also being able to beat these bug decks not even running fow, so thats what made me decide on playing uwr since it has a good combo matchup. We were stranded in CT and awake from 7am til we left at 6pm on Sat so we got a lot of games in to say the least. Comparing our lists to Paulos (or Bryants, same list) we add the island like Bryant suggested for the plateau. Dustin didnt play Karakas because its the only card I didnt have 2 of to complete 2 lists. Instead he played a fourth volc. We just determined plateau sucked and we always want blue mana. On cutting 1 clique from the md, we only play 20 land, we wanted to cut at least one three drop so clique it was. By cutting clique we were able to add a 3rd ponder which we loved. We actually wanted a 4th but couldn't find something else to cut.

As for the sb, we wanted a mix of gy hate thats why we played one of each crypt, cage, and rest in peace. We were also bringing in rest in peace vs punishing jund as it shut of punishing fire, grim, shaman, and goyf. The 4th geist was for the jund and bug matchup. Besides grim, geist is by far the best card vs them. Liliana may answer geist but just keep that in mind. Liliana is the only card you really need to care about. The pierce, blasts and force should all make sense. The 2nd clique was for combo too obv. Against combo decks the flash guy is so much better than geist. You just need to get a clock on vs them but don't want to tap out ever. If you play geist before you have at least 5 land in play I'd bet you just lost. E.E. and disenchant should be self explanatory but one thing to note is we brought in E.E. vs jund as either a way to 2 for 1 them and also a way to kill liliana. The last card that people may wonder about was sulfur elemental. Play the esper blade matchup when they have lingering souls and let me know how it goes. You will rarely win. That card is an issue for this deck, but with the element, you blow up tokens and get a flash guy and can stay untapped so you can still reb and pierce jaces and what not.

My matchups were 0-2 12 post, 2-0 punishing jund, 1-2 esper blade, 2-0 esper blade, 0-2 dredge, 2-1 next level thresh, 2-0 belcher, 2-0 jund W vs something I cant think of

Dustins were though I dont know his game counts W vs burn, W vs the new self mill deck, W vs 12 post, W vs UR burn, W vs Shardless bug (second place list who was also in our car) , W vs Jund 1 W vs one deck I cant think of then double draw in and in top 8 dredge, top 4 was sneak n show where Dustin punted pretty hard to lose. Other wise he would have won. We played that specific matchup at our hotel and they played in the event, it was a great matchup for us.

If anyone has any questions Ill be happy to answer them. Im not sure why people want to add another FOW, why? What card are you scared of? I feel I could cut another force from the md (though I wouldn't) and still have a great combo matchup. The point of the deck is to put pressure on and keep their land low so your pierces and dazes are very live.

[Ruta Barracuda]

You want to save your Bolts as long as possible as you often can win games by getting in a Bolt or two to the dome instead of burning it on a creature. Use those StPs whenever you can, then move onto using burn. And I personally think we should focus on maximizing the early game (turn 1-3) as opposed to gameplanning for the late game where the deck does significantly worse.

Considering how the Legacy build is actually more countermagic-oriented compared to the Modern build, that makes more sense now. I was seeing bolts more as part of the removal suite, as in the Modern version you need them for removal a lot of the time. Bolting a DRS asap against Jund in Modern prevented problems later on for me. So, really this deck is being approached more as a midrange UR Delver with white splash than a port of UWR Delver/ Geist of Saint Win. If you really want to maximize the early game, I'd suggest giving Snapcaster Mage a shot in the flex slots this deck seems to have (kind of like Wweenieking's build that he linked to in the post preceding mine - he's running 3 SCM). I'm probably pretty spoiled by SCM now from using it so much in Modern, but being able to flashback a bolt for the win could be a big help; maybe Wweenieking can provide some insight on the effectiveness of SCM in this build?

[Einherjer]

1) While I agree on the fact, that Swords should sometimes be used early on, and not the Bolts, you might be missing a point. You'll be pretty dead fast, if you Swords Shaman and Confidant, but only got Bolt vs Tarmogoyf.... So it's just not a set-in-stone rule, more like a hint for certain MUs, where all creatures die by Bolt.

2) As wweenieking said, Nimble Mongoose is a problem. And even though RUG is on the decline I don't think we can just move on and say "Oh wow, RUG is not the topdeck any more, so we just play graveyardhate that works better vs Dredge/Reanimator and let the Nimble Mongeese alone!" I could see no decent reasoning not to play 3-4 Rest in Peace as the Hate of choice.

3) I also don't understand why we would need Force, Pierce, Clique and 3(!) Red Elemental Blasts vs Combo in the Sideboard... Pretty much all of them are a good Match-Up in any way.... maybe Force, Pierce and 2 REBs might be enough...

4) As I am a big fan of Sulfur Elemental (I've been playing it since 9 months or so in Miracle) I think it might be good to ditch the Sideboard-Clique and add another Elemental, since we really struggle against 4-in-1-cards like Lingering Souls.

Greetings

[Ruta Barracuda]

2) As wweenieking said, Nimble Mongoose is a problem. And even though RUG is on the decline I don't think we can just move on and say "Oh wow, RUG is not the topdeck any more, so we just play graveyardhate that works better vs Dredge/Reanimator and let the Nimble Mongeese alone!" I could see no decent reasoning not to play 3-4 Rest in Peace as the Hate of choice.

4) As I am a big fan of Sulfur Elemental (I've been playing it since 9 months or so in Miracle) I think it might be good to ditch the Sideboard-Clique and add another Elemental, since we really struggle against 4-in-1-cards like Lingering Souls.


Regarding Nimble Mongoose and Lingering Souls, there are sideboard options available to hit both. I actually really like Sulfur Elemental a lot because it takes care of Lingering Souls and gives you a dude, but if you want a sideboard option that hits both, I might look at Electrickery. Its overload hits all opponent's creatures for 1 and is instant speed. People run Pyroclasm in Modern, but I really don't like that option at all. At the very least, Electrickery will take care of a turn 1 or 2 Mongoose in multiples and save you headaches until they drop one with threshold later on.

[Arsenal]

A list for a 3rd place finish in a 16 person Magic League tourney: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10152&iddeck=73975

This may catch on. It's positioned well right now in the meta full of Blade Control and Jund running things.

[Einherjer]

I don't think that Electrickery is any good, especially not vs Nimble Mongoose. It's a two card combo that has to resolve in the first place. Rest in Peace + Electrickery (Overloard) doesn't seem like a good plan vs Nimble Mongoose. I'd prefer to just play RIP and hope to chumpblock the Mongoose with anything you play, no need for an extracard here. Same for Lingering Souls, why would I use a counterable answer to lingering Souls that is neither permanent nor hits for 3? I really don't see a slot for this card at the moment.

In any way, this is the list I came up with after this weeks testings:

3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
4 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Ponder
1 Island
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 3 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 4 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Grim Lavamancer
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives

Greetings

[Ruta Barracuda]

I don't think that Electrickery is any good, especially not vs Nimble Mongoose. It's a two card combo that has to resolve in the first place. Rest in Peace + Electrickery (Overloard) doesn't seem like a good plan vs Nimble Mongoose. I'd prefer to just play RIP and hope to chumpblock the Mongoose with anything you play, no need for an extracard here. Same for Lingering Souls, why would I use a counterable answer to lingering Souls that is neither permanent nor hits for 3? I really don't see a slot for this card at the moment.

In any way, this is the list I came up with after this weeks testings:


SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 2 Disenchant
SB: 3 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 4 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Grim Lavamancer
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives


I'm suggesting Electrickery more for sb efficiency than anything else, assuming you'd be seeing both Jund and Canadian Thresh on a regular basis. It's a way around an early Mongoose to stall until you get RiP (I still think you should run Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus so you don't neuter your own Grim Lavamancer), and if it hits an unflipped Delver, all the better. That early, it should be pivotal, so having Daze or FoW backup for it will be necessary, yes, but it will allow you to dictate the tempo for the rest of the match. Against Jund, they don't run counters, but again - killing their graveyard and sweeping off Souls and killing off a Bob ought to let you dictate the game from there on out. I do completely agree that if you don't see a lot of Canadian Thresh and a lot more of Jund, Sulfur Elemental is just better against Lingering Souls, as it's a permanent answer, and it's a nice little bonus that it pumps your Angels too.

The sideboard you have looks pretty good to me. One thing I'm wondering about the Jund matchup here is how well they're able to recover from Stifle/Wasteland. In Modern, when I played Twin I knew guys who had great results "Stifle"-ing Jund players' fetches with Trickbind (NOT suggesting Trickbind here) , and that just shut them down. I'm really curious if the Stifle/Wasteland package does a good enough job at shutting them down in Legacy.

[Einherjer]

The sideboard you have looks pretty good to me. One thing I'm wondering about the Jund matchup here is how well they're able to recover from Stifle/Wasteland. In Modern, when I played Twin I knew guys who had great results "Stifle"-ing Jund players' fetches with Trickbind (NOT suggesting Trickbind here) , and that just shut them down. I'm really curious if the Stifle/Wasteland package does a good enough job at shutting them down in Legacy.

Jund has a pretty awful manabase in Legacy, though making it easy to screw them a little. Though they will recover if we do not murder any Shaman on sight or drop a Mancer. Grim Lavamancer paired with the manascrewplan works very well.

I still think that RIP > Relic/Crypt - yes it shuts down our Lavamancers, but I do not have them in, postboard. All they can kill is a Delver of Secrets, a creature we have a billion outs to, so I do not see a need to play worse hatecards at all.

Greetings

[Demonic_Attorney]

If ones metagame does have a lot of Jund than some devoted sideboard tech would indeed be prudent strategy.

Divert is awesome against Jund. Whether it is throwing a hymm back at them or re-targeting a decay or bolt, it is very sound strategy to bring in if you're having significant difficulty with Jund.

[Arsenal]

Not sure if the manabase can support it, or if it would even be necessary, but any thought given to Mirran Crusader in the sideboard? I could see it having potential game versus the BUG decks and even Jund (non PFire builds). Again, I'm just spitballing here...

[ZimAshe]

has anyone given thought to boros reckoner in the main?

[kiblast]

How is this deck matchup versus UW/ UWx Miracle and Esper Blade? I've been playing with an UWb Delver Tempo list lately, which shares the same tempo phylosophy of this UWR Delver build but plays Stoneforge instead of Geist as the main win con ( as I feel SFM is much better when facing a wide spectrum of decks).

I've been crushing almost everything with UWb Delver Tempo, from Jund to Rug to Bug Aggro to Elves, but I just die to Miracle and EsperBlade. Basically I just would like to know how much switching from UWb Delver Tempo to UWr Delver Tempo increases my % ratio vs. said decks. Obviously Reb out of the board is huge but so (and maybe even better) is the discard package.

Oh, has SFM been considered over Geist? I find Sfm amazing in this particular shells (UWx Delver tempo decks) as she capitalizes on the tempo gaps you create way better than GoST, provides a lategame plan and it's generally cheaper, as it's the typical turn 3 safe play that doesn't expose you to Daze, lets you stay open for Stifle and Pierce, etc.

Edit: Just saw Einherjer's take on SFM in the first page. While I do agree that an Aggro Mystic doesn't always win games, on the other side the tempo package sensibly changes this most of the times. Daze and Pierce are relevant ways to protect your SFM, Stifle/Waste lets you drop SFM in a boardstate where even if it's the 2nd or 3rd turn you actually are at least 1 turn in advantage land wise and tempo wise. And she's generally easier to connect, as GoST needs a clear way to connect and most of the times clearing the way in order for him to reach opponent's life total is way more difficult than just protect your SFM for a turn, untap and BSkull your opponent / equip a sword.

[Grizzly_Bear]

@Kiblast
I am the one that played against you on Cockatrice a couple of days ago, me playing UWr, you playing UWb. I would say the matchup against Esper is favored for UWr, as my experience is that grim lavamancer dominates all creatures available for the Esper player. I realize your deck was not an ordinary Esper deck, which is why it turned out sort of like a classical tempo-mirror, but the statement regarding grim lavamancer holds true also for those games I think.

Regarding Miracles, I have not had the chance to test that matchup very much. However, I believe we should be able to do the RUG-trick, i.e. place a shroud on the board and ignore everything else except for counterbalance and miracles, and we do have both counters, clique and stifle for the latter. Granted, Geist is a lot more hard to play compared to mongoose, but the fast clock may make up for it. But as I said, I don't have the experience to back these statements up just yet.

EDIT:
I'd love to see your UWb Tempo-list as well. PM?

[Einherjer]

Especially against UWb Stoneblade/Controldecks red is way better than black, because we have the following:
1) 8 cc1 Removal and 3 Mancer, making Mystic into Skull a No-Go. On the other way, Jitte won't save them too, as we can just kill every fucking creature the Controlplayer would like to equip the Jitte at.
2) We have REBs and Sulfur Elementals (<3) out of the SB, making their best stallcard --> Lingering Souls a liability. Hitting for 3 isn't bad either.
3) Against decks that run 4 Swords and 3-4 Snapcaster, and even more Swords (Paths) Sideboard you want to make sure, that you are not getting blown out by "infinite Swords". This can be achieved by simply manascrewing them (won't always work, obv.) or just play shrouded creatures. I am not the most experiences tempoplayer, though I played different Controldecks a lot, but Shroudcreatures pretty much always do the trick in those Matchups.

When playing against Miracles I can understand that you are having problems beating them, because they play 4 Terminus 4 Swords and some additional Snapcaster Mages plus some (creative) removals like EE, Verdict, Clasm... None of your creatures has Shroud, and "Play Skull, die, bounce, play" is no option for a tempodeck. Geist on the other side is pretty much a 3-turn-clock vs those decks. In addition to this, all their outs to Geist are stifleable or Chumpblockers can be killed by our Bolts/Mancer. So casting Stifle on their Fetchlands is not always the right move...

And in addition to this, having played with and against various Tempodecks for quite a while I have to say, that I simply can't imagine a Tempodeck without Lightning Bolt... Speeding up the clock, killing an stabilized opponent, costing 1 mana for being a very effective removal are just a few points that led me away from playing boltless tempo - mostly talking about BUG here though.

Greetings

[lost_ronin_soul]

i lie this thread currently im running a cousin of this deck, its a stonbade u/w/r , the differences are this deck reminds me of rug delver, mine plays more similar to esper stoneblade... i like 3 spell pierce in the main and 2-3 fluster storms in the side to bring in against control/combo but this deck is running the tempo pakage with stifle and wasteland so it is probably not necessary unlike my list which it dramatically makes a difference, how would magnus of the moon do in your sideboard with mana denial strategy? i thin guerrilla tactics is a cute ard for decs that like to make you discard, since this deck doesnt run any artifacts or enchamtents in the main, i wonder if running an isocron septor in the sideboard might add some suprise to games 2-3 because your opponent should board out artifact removal

[Einherjer]

@Boros Reckoner: No.
@Mirran Crusader: No, 1) we do not need cards that are only good vs BGx not running P.Fire, 2) they still got Bolts and 3) it's not easy to cast the Crusader at all.

I have been toying around with an interesting sideboardcard. Price of Progress. A friend of mine played this in RUG Delver to quite some success. The idea behind that card is easy. Board it only in, if it is obvious, that we are the Beatdown. Board it only in, if the opposing deck has alot of Nonbasics. So, we would be boarding it in vs Espercontrol, BUG Control and some lower tierdecks. Sadly we can't really bring it vs Jund, as they can just turn the game and be the agressor, at least that is what I have experienced so far. One might say that bringing in PoP, while hoping for a high damage output, and manascrewing is an antisynergy. I have thought about this aswell, but many of the games vs various Controldecks end up with them having alot of Lands, because they did stabilize and we did not bother throwing our Stifles on their irrelevant Fetchlands(obv.). Though the PoP might hit us for 4-8 it still might be a good choice because it can just knock down an Opponent having a connected Batterskull... you know, just like Price for 16 or something.
In addition to this it can kill Planeswalkers and it can sometimes draw lost games.

Has anybody been testing with the 1 flex. Landslot we got, Island in my list posted above? I mean we have Island, Plateau and Karakas as possibilities.
These are my points for any land, given:
1) Island: Good Land to start a Tempomirror with. Can bluff Miracle-Control quite well - noone expects a Stifle from a deck that made like Island, Go, or Strand, Island, Go. In the Lategame Island is clearly the worst land.
2) Plateau: Pretty bad early, cause it is simply not blue, making it impossible to Stifle an opposing Fetchland, Wasteland, Spell Pierce, Daze or do anything else... In the Midgame it provides us with a good land vs opposing Wastelands, because we can like Fetch for Tundra, Volcanic and Plateau making it harder for them to colorscrew us.
3) Karakas: Even worse than Plateau in the Earlygame, not too good in the Midgame too, but the Lategame is, where Karakas shines, protecting our Geist from opposing tricks/chumps whatever. It works as a pseudo-random-hate vs Show and Tell too :D

What are you opinions/experiences on these 3 lands?

Greetings

[catmint]

Has anybody been testing with the 1 flex. Landslot we got, Island in my list posted above? I mean we have Island, Plateau and Karakas as possibilities.
These are my points for any land, given:
1) Island: Good Land to start a Tempomirror with. Can bluff Miracle-Control quite well - noone expects a Stifle from a deck that made like Island, Go, or Strand, Island, Go. In the Lategame Island is clearly the worst land.
2) Plateau: Pretty bad early, cause it is simply not blue, making it impossible to Stifle an opposing Fetchland, Wasteland, Spell Pierce, Daze or do anything else... In the Midgame it provides us with a good land vs opposing Wastelands, because we can like Fetch for Tundra, Volcanic and Plateau making it harder for them to colorscrew us.
3) Karakas: Even worse than Plateau in the Earlygame, not too good in the Midgame too, but the Lategame is, where Karakas shines, protecting our Geist from opposing tricks/chumps whatever. It works as a pseudo-random-hate vs Show and Tell too :D

What are you opinions/experiences on these 3 lands?

Greetings

From testing I would rather run another Volcanic before the 1st Island, because of lavamancer. Karakas as random utility is not worth it for a tempo deck requiring islands as you pointed out. I would go for the PLateau though since it is the best land to be fetched as land #3. Since the colors are more distributed than for RUG (creature=green, removal=red) in this deck both removal and creatures are in red and white making color screw really bad.

To me this deck has almost "too much" board control and not enough offensive punch. I am thinking about making some tests without lavamancer but with Jotun Grunt instead. Grunt hates so much popular stuff very well (Deathrite, Punishing Fire, Tombstalker, Goyf, Mongoose, Snapcaster, Dredge, Loam) and does not die to bolt or punishing fire making him much better vs. Jund I think. At this point in legacy almost every deck uses the graveyard as a resource and he feels like Goyf raping rest in peace. Freeing up SB slots is also nice

[Arsenal]

Played small tourney, went 1-2 beating ANT, but losing to Jund and UR Delver. I must say, without Geist rocking and rolling, this deck doesn't deal as much damage as I'd like during those precious turns that my opponent is slightly off balance (thanks to Stifle, Wasteland, etc).

[alderon666]

I suggest Boros Charm. It helps keeping Geist/Delver alive while having 2 aggresive modes. Just throwing it out there.

[ceustice]

I suggest Boros Charm. It helps keeping Geist/Delver alive while having 2 aggresive modes. Just throwing it out there.

I actually agree with this I think Charm would really help with putting the petal to the metal and change the way your opponent would have to play against the deck and that is exactly what this deck wants.

[catmint]

Charm does not make the cut it for me. Bolt & Swords are better and I don't think you can cut threats or anything from the blue tempo shell. Also this decks manacurve is too high anyway.

Not having enough punch without geist is true: Try Jotun Grunt.
I think it's best as a 3of since you want to disrupt/cantrip first. But if things go well he comes down turn3+ hating on 80% of the format while beating like a goyf.

I played Geist as a 3 of but it is still f**** expensive and very often not castable. Opponents play wasteland as well! He can still fulfill an important role as a 2of.

Since I don't think you can make lavamancer & grunt work there is space for more creatures. Ideally at 1cmc, but 2 could be ok. More 3cmc like snapcaster and vendilion clique are unfortunately not an option.

Best option to beat at 1cmc is Steppe Lynx I guess. Tough to evaluate him, but it could maybe work with fetchies and daze.
At 2cmc you could bring in more disruption elements like Meddling Mage or Phyrexian revoker.

Hope the community has better ideas, but I am pretty sure that a build with Grunt has a lot more potential than a build with lavamancer.

[Einherjer]

Ok, Jotun Grunt sounds fantastic. This are my thoughts on him:
1) 4/4 for 2 is good.
2) He opens our mainboard to Spell Snare, which was dead earlier.
3) Playing him forces us to cut on the Lavamancers, as long as we do not play both of them in low numbers.
4) He trumps Mongoose, though Mongoose + Bolt will always be enough, no matter how big the Mongoose is.
5) Preboard Graveyardhate is always nice to have in such a wide open format.
6) He is fast and beats for alot, on an empty field.
7) Grunt will trump Tarmogoyf more often that not.


So playing with Grunt would force us to drastically change our creaturebase, especially concerning Grim Lavamancer, which I am very unhappy about. What are you peoples takes on a UWR Tempocreaturebase with Grunt? I mean we would def. have to play 12+ creatures, as Grunt is more of a temporary creature and hardly playable in multiples... As great as Grunt sounds, I cannot think of a decent creature-combination...

Greetings

[catmint]

Maybe i was wrong and 4 Delver, 4 Grunt, 3 Geist is not so bad after all. I tested with 2 meddling mage and 1 Vendilion clique in the SB for additional fuel vs. combo & control. I like how it plays out having more control over the board compared to RUG and easy wins over dredge as well as keeping Goyf 2/3 felt good. Compared to RUG you don't have mongose hence cannot "ping" in the early game, but geist makes up for that later on.

For reference what I've been testing.

19 lands
3 Volcanic
3 Tundra
1 Plateau
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Jotun Grunt
3 Geist of Saint Traft

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce

Sideobard
4 Submerge
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Disentchant
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Meddling Mage
1 Vendilion Clique

[lost_ronin_soul]

how would magnus of the moon do in this kind of deck style with all of the mana denial?(stifle/wasteland )

[Einherjer]

Could we please stick to realistic suggestions... I've got enough of Boros Reckoner and Magus of the Moon... And even if you have to suggest ...cards like this... please back it up with some explanations!

Greetings

[lost_ronin_soul]

Could we please stick to realistic suggestions... I've got enough of Boros Reckoner and Magus of the Moon... And even if you have to suggest ...cards like this... please back it up with some explanations!

Greetings

Stifle will help keep the opponent from getting basics, then when magnus comes down on turn three it turns into a hard lock. Magnus would then become a clock all by itself that you can ride out like painterservant.dec. Playing it would most likely require a modification of the mana base and maybe a few cards in the board for better synergy but do you think that strategy is playable or just bad?

[Ruta Barracuda]

So playing with Grunt would force us to drastically change our creaturebase, especially concerning Grim Lavamancer, which I am very unhappy about. What are you peoples takes on a UWR Tempocreaturebase with Grunt? I mean we would def. have to play 12+ creatures, as Grunt is more of a temporary creature and hardly playable in multiples... As great as Grunt sounds, I cannot think of a decent creature-combination...


Grunt sounds cool, but like you I really don't like the anti-synergy with Lavamancer to the point where we have to cut Lavamancer completely. Figure of Destiny has been thrown around a little bit in this thread as a creature to test, and I'm bringing him up again. I'm in the middle of finishing up grad school/moving to new job right now, so I can't test this stuff with my testing partner, but once I get the chance I'm going to see how Figure of Destiny runs. I personally like him because you can pump him at instant speed, making him a nice early 1-drop and a stronger mid-late game drop. I guess the only thing is this - I tend to design my decks to play at instant speed often, but what I want to find out is how realistic is it to expect to get Figure of Destiny to a 4/4 consistently once he drops, assuming he doesn't get hit by removal?

[lost_ronin_soul]

Grunt sounds cool, but like you I really don't like the anti-synergy with Lavamancer to the point where we have to cut Lavamancer completely. Figure of Destiny has been thrown around a little bit in this thread as a creature to test, and I'm bringing him up again. I'm in the middle of finishing up grad school/moving to new job right now, so I can't test this stuff with my testing partner, but once I get the chance I'm going to see how Figure of Destiny runs. I personally like him because you can pump him at instant speed, making him a nice early 1-drop and a stronger mid-late game drop. I guess the only thing is this - I tend to design my decks to play at instant speed often, but what I want to find out is how realistic is it to expect to get Figure of Destiny to a 4/4 consistently once he drops, assuming he doesn't get hit by removal?

I've tested him back in the day and liked him in a u/w build. He was "alright" but he is vulnerable when you tap out. He fell out of my deck build when better cards like stoneforge and delver of secrets (which I'm curently running stoneforge package of delver ) were printed. You will often find figure of d as a 2/2 and then you will hail-mary-pump (pray he doesnt die before your untap) at pivital moments [during a key attack step, or during opponents end step]to turn into a 4/4. If he DOES pump to 8/8 (which isn't common if you run wastelands) and your opponent can't remove it he will shore up a game quick.

[Ruta Barracuda]

I've tested him back in the day and liked him in a u/w build. He was "alright" but he is vulnerable when you tap out. He fell out of my deck build when better cards like stoneforge and delver of secrets (which I'm curently running stoneforge package of delver ) were printed. You will often find figure of d as a 2/2 and then you will hail-mary-pump (pray he doesnt die before your untap) at pivital moments [during a key attack step, or during opponents end step]to turn into a 4/4. If he DOES pump to 8/8 (which isn't common if you run wastelands) and your opponent can't remove it he will shore up a game quick.

Replying specifically to bolded parts: I tried testing Figure of Destiny in a U/W tempo build before, but I just didn't like it. The difference between U/W and UWR builds are that you have more diverse mana sources available, and this is a plus because Figure of Destiny pumps off both white and red mana. I found in my testing in modern, strictly related to mana base, that Figure just seems to work better with both white and red mana sources available compared to just white in a blue-based tempo build. I don't really see a problem getting to four mana and being able to pump a Figure at eot with a blue source open for a Spell Pierce vs. removal.

[mini1337s]

I've been having a lot of success with this list:

2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Wasteland

4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Delver of Secrets

4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Boros Charm

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Sideboard:
3 Rest in Peace
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Disenchant
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Detention Sphere
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Force of Will

[Demonic_Attorney]

I've been having a lot of success with this list:

2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Wasteland

4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Delver of Secrets

4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Boros Charm

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Sideboard:
3 Rest in Peace
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Disenchant
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Detention Sphere
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Force of Will

Far too slow, little tempo and not delver/ thresh style.

It almost becomes a whole different deck. In fact, it does!

[Einherjer]

I gotta admit that I've given up on the deck, because:
1) the RUG-Tempo-MU is just too bad, and this deck simply cannot be ignored when building a competitive deck.
2) Geist of Saint Traft is too expensive, you rarely want to tap out for him, but in some MUs he is just the nuts - but this is not what a tempocreature has to be - they have to be acceptable in pretty much every MU.
3) While this deck is probably a very good choice versus certain top-decks it has too many flaws when fighting the other part of the Tier1s, and I for my part can't see a way to improve them at all.

RUG just seems to be the best Tempodeck, no matter what UWR or BUG try.

Greetings

[Kl'rt]

I gotta admit that I've given up on the deck, because:
1) the RUG-Tempo-MU is just too bad, and this deck simply cannot be ignored when building a competitive deck.
2) Geist of Saint Traft is too expensive, you rarely want to tap out for him, but in some MUs he is just the nuts - but this is not what a tempocreature has to be - they have to be acceptable in pretty much every MU.
3) While this deck is probably a very good choice versus certain top-decks it has too many flaws when fighting the other part of the Tier1s, and I for my part can't see a way to improve them at all.

RUG just seems to be the best Tempodeck, no matter what UWR or BUG try.

Greetings


I have not tested with this against Canadian Thresh yet, but I do believe you when you say it's not that good. At one of my LGSs though, there's almost no RUG, but lots of Jund. From my testing, this UWR variant of tempo seems to fare a lot better against Jund than RUG does. I've found fighting against Jund with RUG to be very difficult. For this reason, I'm still willing to run this deck.

Does RIP out of the sideboard not help much against Thresh? In my experience, I've found it's really good against Jund (stops 'goyfs, Deathrites and Punishing Fire). I would imagine neutering RUG's 'goyfs and Mongooses to be pretty good.


Cheers

[CRich3]

Wow I am surprised someone actually made a thread for this. I have been playing this since the release of Geist of Saint Traft. I don't play the deck as often anymore because I have been playing Nic Fit. But I may switch back to this. Here is my curent list.

Lands: 18
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Flood Strand
1x Arid Mesa
3x Volcanic Island
2x Tundra
1x Plateau
4x Wasteland

Creatures: 12
2x Nivmagus Elemental
4x Delver of Secrtes
3x Snapcaster Mage
3x Geist of Saint Traft

Spells: 29
1x Preordain
3x Chain Lightning
3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Daze
3x Flusterstorm
3x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
2x Ajani, Caller of the Pride --> Boros Charm

Sideboard: 15
2 Rest in Peace
1 Disenchant
2 Supreme Verdict
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce

Notes:
1. So far RIP out of the board completely destroys tempo decks that rely on Tarmogoyf.
2. The 2 Nivmagus Elementals were 2 Grim Lavamancers but Grim Lavamancer wasn't putting enough pressure on my opponents. He is a nice control creature but I want to kill my opponent as fast as possible. Main deck Flusterstorm with Nivmagus has won me many games. No deck can win a counter war with you. Sometimes I just burn through counters so I can pump my Nivamgus with the extra copies of Flusterstorm. I only run 2 because having multiples in play is useless.
3. Ajani, Caller of the Price seems way out of place in legacy but he has served me well. I use him to pump an unflipped delver or add power to my Geist of Saint Traft so I can swing in without him dying. Plus the flying and double strike with Nivmagus has won me a few games really early. But I was thinking about changing it to Boros charm for more versatility. Haven't had the chance to test Boro's Charm yet.

[Arsenal]

A UWR midrange deck that placed 2nd out of 72 in a Euro tourney, losing to Sneak Attack: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10275&iddeck=74877. This deck opted to not run Delver of Secrets or Stifle, but plan for the long game instead of the short, tempo game. I think that regardless of tempo, midrange, or control, UWR colored decks are on the cusp of being legit.

[Ruta Barracuda]

A UWR midrange deck that placed 2nd out of 72 in a Euro tourney, losing to Sneak Attack: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10275&iddeck=74877. This deck opted to not run Delver of Secrets or Stifle, but plan for the long game instead of the short, tempo game. I think that regardless of tempo, midrange, or control, UWR colored decks are on the cusp of being legit.

That list is closer to what I expected UWR lists that don't run the Stone Blade package to gravitate towards. I really see this becoming a midrange deck instead of a tempo deck. With Jund everywhere right now, UWR is a good choice. The RUG matchup will probably be overwhelming to play against, but that's the breaks I guess.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Does RIP out of the sideboard not help much against Thresh? In my experience, I've found it's really good against Jund (stops 'goyfs, Deathrites and Punishing Fire). I would imagine neutering RUG's 'goyfs and Mongooses to be pretty good.


It's amazing against thresh, Nimble Mongoose is still a 1/1, but a lot less threatening now and goyf gets to sit there and look expensive.

[Vandalize]

I've been toying with with UWR Tempo, and it's been pretty succesful. Mainly due to the fact that this deck doesn't rely so heavily on the graveyard (RUG needs Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose).

This is my latest list:

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
3 Tundra
1 Karakas
4 Delver of Secerts
3 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 3 Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 Rough//Tumble
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Disenchant

8 Removal maindeck is awesome against any non-combo deck. And it clears the way for Geist. Moreover Stifling Geist's angel is really really good.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Why O-Ring over D.Sphere?

How relevant has snare been for your?

[Vandalize]

Why O-Ring over D.Sphere?

How relevant has snare been for your?

No reason at all. Maybe D.Sphere is better.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

No reason at all. Maybe D.Sphere is better.

Random blast effects seem annoying coming from Omniscience, so not completely..

[learntolove6]

i'm trying out the deck and I think im going to cut 1 swords to plowshares for 1 thought scour. I felt like the deck drew removal a bit too often and stp is, as mentioned, anti-synergetic. an 8th cantrip seems solid in the list and thought scour is also a personal favorite of mine. i tried out snapcaster in the clique spot and i was unimpressed by it's body and anti-synergy.

[mikeisgo]

I played this deck recently in the SCG DC Open. I feel like in the current meta-game of lots of Deathrite shamans this deck can do really well. (also supported by the fact that a deck very close to mine, got 2nd on the day.)

The list I played was this:
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Ponder

1 Karakas
1 plains
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Flusterstorm
3 Submerge
2 Spell Pierce
2 Disenchant
1 Force of Will
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Echoing Truth

My biggest regret of the day was that I didn't have sideboard rest in piece. Of any card I didn't put in, that was the card that would have turned my losing record on the day into a winning one on its own. Of the 7 rounds i stayed in for, I played and lost to 4 deathrite/tarmogoyf decks. 3 of those matches I won game 1, and then went on to lose 2 close games afterwards.

Other good things to note about the build:
1. I'm almost prone to call this a Geist deck and not a delver deck. Sure it plays delver, but geist is the reason this deck is good.

2. Karakas is great here. The card has a lot of good interactions with both Geist and Vendilion Clique (if i were to build a list that used more Cliques I'd almost certainly want to try and use 2). I know I misplayed Geist with this deck that lead to at least one of my losses. With karakas on the board you can attack pretty much freely with Geist without worry of losing him. Since you can just bounce him at blockers, and replay him in the same turn if you have the open lands. I found a bunch of games where I'd get geist down the same turn they had a blocker that could kill geist if I attacked with him. If I had found Karakas more, that situation wouldn't have been as problematic. You of course also have STP and Lightning bolt for these situations, but its nice to be able to get around it especially if you're staring down a huge Goyf.

3. I like grim lavamancer, but I found a few times where I was stretching for the red mana. Maybe i needed a basic mountain in my build as well. THere was a lot of wasteland in DC.

This brings me to a concept I started to play around with recently: Taking grim lavamance out, and going more aggresively with Geist and Vendilion Clique, in a build like this:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Vendilion Clique

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Ponder

2 Karakas
1 plains
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

SB
2 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Force of Will
1 Flusterstorm
3 Submerge
1 Spell Pierce
2 Disenchant
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Rest in Piece

Thoughts?

[learntolove6]

I played this deck recently in the SCG DC Open. I feel like in the current meta-game of lots of Deathrite shamans this deck can do really well. (also supported by the fact that a deck very close to mine, got 2nd on the day.)

The list I played was this:
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Ponder

1 Karakas
1 plains
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Flusterstorm
3 Submerge
2 Spell Pierce
2 Disenchant
1 Force of Will
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Echoing Truth

My biggest regret of the day was that I didn't have sideboard rest in piece. Of any card I didn't put in, that was the card that would have turned my losing record on the day into a winning one on its own. Of the 7 rounds i stayed in for, I played and lost to 4 deathrite/tarmogoyf decks. 3 of those matches I won game 1, and then went on to lose 2 close games afterwards.

Other good things to note about the build:
1. I'm almost prone to call this a Geist deck and not a delver deck. Sure it plays delver, but geist is the reason this deck is good.

2. Karakas is great here. The card has a lot of good interactions with both Geist and Vendilion Clique (if i were to build a list that used more Cliques I'd almost certainly want to try and use 2). I know I misplayed Geist with this deck that lead to at least one of my losses. With karakas on the board you can attack pretty much freely with Geist without worry of losing him. Since you can just bounce him at blockers, and replay him in the same turn if you have the open lands. I found a bunch of games where I'd get geist down the same turn they had a blocker that could kill geist if I attacked with him. If I had found Karakas more, that situation wouldn't have been as problematic. You of course also have STP and Lightning bolt for these situations, but its nice to be able to get around it especially if you're staring down a huge Goyf.

3. I like grim lavamancer, but I found a few times where I was stretching for the red mana. Maybe i needed a basic mountain in my build as well. THere was a lot of wasteland in DC.

This brings me to a concept I started to play around with recently: Taking grim lavamance out, and going more aggresively with Geist and Vendilion Clique, in a build like this:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Vendilion Clique

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Ponder

2 Karakas
1 plains
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

SB
2 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Force of Will
1 Flusterstorm
3 Submerge
1 Spell Pierce
2 Disenchant
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Rest in Piece

Thoughts?

How did you like having 2 Vendilion Cliques? I like the idea, because having another 3 power flier is very good, I found. I like lavamancer a lot, so I don't think I would cut him, butI have been liking the idea of 4 Geist in the maindeck. I think before that, however, I am going to test with 2 Cliques. Can I ask why you had Echoing Truth in your board?

[mikeisgo]

How did you like having 2 Vendilion Cliques? I like the idea, because having another 3 power flier is very good, I found. I like lavamancer a lot, so I don't think I would cut him, butI have been liking the idea of 4 Geist in the maindeck. I think before that, however, I am going to test with 2 Cliques. Can I ask why you had Echoing Truth in your board?


2 Vendilion Clique's were really nice to play. I think I agree with you sentiments on Grim Lavamancer. I like him enough (the build without him is more of an experiment), but when I got Clique it always felt a lot more powerful, since when I cast him I not only prevented my opponent from doing something (or drew myself a card), but I also had a flying threat that most of the time did some damage to their life total. If I ever drew up the second one, i didn't care because many times people have removal for your clique, or you can always pitch Clique to force of will, which really useful as well.

One of the reasons I used 2 in the main, is because I expected a lot more combo than I actually saw. The two combo decks I did play in DC were Hive Mind (which i completely decimated), and Elves, which stifle/wasteland just crippled. On the other hand Clique is nice against Deathrite decks, because it doesn't put the card in the graveyard it puts it on the bottom of the deck..

As for the Echoing Truth. I had partly because it was a card available to me (i don't own any rest in peace, and the guys i went with were playing the Rest In Pieces deck so I couldn't borrow their's). Also I felt if I saw SHow and Tell Decks, and possibly any kind of token deck, Echoing Truth could be really useful. If you played against TES, and they do Empty the Warrens for 16 goblins, Echoing Truth kind wrecks their day. A good player probably isn't going to get totally caught by that but it can give you an edge and some time to win. The other use of Echoing Truth (besides opposing pesky permanents) you can also use it to protect Geist when attacking, though Karakas does this better, its a good use for it in your sideboarded match if you just need to deal some extra damage and they've gotten a late blocker to stop your geist from attacking.

In the end I'm not sure Echoing Truth was good enough. On the day I was seriously wanting Rest In Piece, but it was something to try out at least.

[learntolove6]

2 Vendilion Clique's were really nice to play. I think I agree with you sentiments on Grim Lavamancer. I like him enough (the build without him is more of an experiment), but when I got Clique it always felt a lot more powerful, since when I cast him I not only prevented my opponent from doing something (or drew myself a card), but I also had a flying threat that most of the time did some damage to their life total. If I ever drew up the second one, i didn't care because many times people have removal for your clique, or you can always pitch Clique to force of will, which really useful as well.

One of the reasons I used 2 in the main, is because I expected a lot more combo than I actually saw. The two combo decks I did play in DC were Hive Mind (which i completely decimated), and Elves, which stifle/wasteland just crippled. On the other hand Clique is nice against Deathrite decks, because it doesn't put the card in the graveyard it puts it on the bottom of the deck..

As for the Echoing Truth. I had partly because it was a card available to me (i don't own any rest in peace, and the guys i went with were playing the Rest In Pieces deck so I couldn't borrow their's). Also I felt if I saw SHow and Tell Decks, and possibly any kind of token deck, Echoing Truth could be really useful. If you played against TES, and they do Empty the Warrens for 16 goblins, Echoing Truth kind wrecks their day. A good player probably isn't going to get totally caught by that but it can give you an edge and some time to win. The other use of Echoing Truth (besides opposing pesky permanents) you can also use it to protect Geist when attacking, though Karakas does this better, its a good use for it in your sideboarded match if you just need to deal some extra damage and they've gotten a late blocker to stop your geist from attacking.

In the end I'm not sure Echoing Truth was good enough. On the day I was seriously wanting Rest In Piece, but it was something to try out at least.

Yeah, Rest in Peace is really good. Ive been playing it in Blade forever and it does work. I think ill give the second clique a shot. Did you ever want the 3rd spell pierce? and how was swords to plowshares on the day? i'm testing out 3 stp and 1 forked bolt to hedge against lingering souls, maverick, and just as an additional burn spell.

[mikeisgo]

Yeah, Rest in Peace is really good. Ive been playing it in Blade forever and it does work. I think ill give the second clique a shot. Did you ever want the 3rd spell pierce? and how was swords to plowshares on the day? i'm testing out 3 stp and 1 forked bolt to hedge against lingering souls, maverick, and just as an additional burn spell.

I never wanted a 3rd pierce in the main. For matchups where I wanted more counter magic, I had 2 pierce, 1 flusterstor, 1 FOW in the board.

I honestly didn't draw my STP's too much.. but they were pretty great when i had them. RFG'ing a deathrite is pretty nice. I don't think I'd want less than 4 though. It just solves so many issues.

I toyed around a lot with what to do about lingering souls, because in testing i felt like that card in Esper stoneblade type decks was a big problem for me. They can essentially fog you for a few turns before they turn on their batterskull or just curve you out. I toyed with Surgical Extraction (i.e. you can have the first 2 tokens but you can't use anymore because they don't exist in your deck), and eventually resolved to the Sulfur Elementals, since it outright kills ones on the board and prevents others from coming into play, plus gives you a dude. I never played Esper in a real match (just tested against it) though. So its hard to say whats best. I like the forked bolt idea, maybe something even for the sideboard if not the main.

[Sturtzilla]

I hope this is the right place to post about the list that I have been testing out recently. First I would like to preface my post by saying that I have really liked playing RUG Delver/Tempo over the past year or so; however, with the release of Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman and a lot of the control decks running maindeck Rest in Peace, I have decided that it was time for a bit of a change. So I put together the following list and took it to a 3rd place finish yesterday night at locals. The list is a bit of an adaptation of the Vaporblade list the Edelkamp took to a Top 8 finish a GP or two back.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Snapcaster mage
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull
4 Force of Will
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island


Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Disenchant
2 Jotan Grunt
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Supreme Verdict

I played against UWr Enchantment Miracles round 1 to a 2-0 finish, Goblins round 2 to a 2-0 finish, Punishing Maverick round 3 to a 0-2 finish, and Beat Sneak and Show round 4 in 2 games. I think that overall the deck ran pretty well, I do have a few concerns. I think that it probably needs an extra land or two; I have been playing various tempo style lists for awhile now. This list requires a bit more mana as you do want to be casting SFM, SCM, and Geist. You also want to be able to make these plays while holding up mana for counterspells and removal. I think that with that said, the deck probably wants to be running 19-20 land. While playing this deck, I basically felt like I was always in control. Against Maverick in round three, I kept loose openers and got punished for them. More specifically these were hands with low land counts. I think the match up shouldn't be bad as the deck has a really powerful midgame with equipment. But I think an extra land or two would help to make Wasteland oriented decks less of a problem.

[DragoFireheart]

Why are you playing Daze without Wasteland...?

[Sturtzilla]

Why are you playing Daze without Wasteland...?

So there are a few reasons. Daze and Wasteland do not need to be played together. They are a strong combination, however playing one without the other is not necessarily wrong. The first being that I based the list off of what Fred Edelkamp ran to a Top 8 finish at a GP. The differences being the Lightning Bolt over Vapor Snag as it actually kills creatures and can give a little reach. The other main difference in the lists is the mana base. I tried to mimic his list as best as I could in converting it to a 3-color version. Here is a link to the list.

http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/fred-edelkamp-vaporblade/

The second reason is an inherent factor of the way I have constructed the deck. Casting Stoneforge Mystic, Snapcaster Mage, and Geist all require more mana than many other tempo styled decks. By running Wasteland you can mana screw your opponent and buy time; however, you are also setting yourself back on land. When you need to hit 3 mana to SCM or Geist, you want to hit land drops.

You have brought up a good point that Daze doesn't really fit into this shell that well. Returning you land to your hand also sets you back on board. So it is possible that the Dazes should be a combination of Spell Pierces and Spell Snares. Or maybe Pierces and flex slots of some kind depending on your meta.

[DragoFireheart]

You have brought up a good point that Daze doesn't really fit into this shell that well. Returning you land to your hand also sets you back on board. So it is possible that the Dazes should be a combination of Spell Pierces and Spell Snares. Or maybe Pierces and flex slots of some kind depending on your meta.

This was the direction I was going. Daze and Wasteland don't fit the theme of casting mana intensive spells. You'd either need cheap threats (Goose/Delver) or ways to cheat them into play (Aether Vial) if you want to run Daze/Wasteland.

[mikeisgo]

I hope this is the right place to post about the list that I have been testing out recently. First I would like to preface my post by saying that I have really liked playing RUG Delver/Tempo over the past year or so; however, with the release of Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman and a lot of the control decks running maindeck Rest in Peace, I have decided that it was time for a bit of a change. So I put together the following list and took it to a 3rd place finish yesterday night at locals. The list is a bit of an adaptation of the Vaporblade list the Edelkamp took to a Top 8 finish a GP or two back.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Snapcaster mage
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull
4 Force of Will
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island


Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Disenchant
2 Jotan Grunt
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Supreme Verdict

I played against UWr Enchantment Miracles round 1 to a 2-0 finish, Goblins round 2 to a 2-0 finish, Punishing Maverick round 3 to a 0-2 finish, and Beat Sneak and Show round 4 in 2 games. I think that overall the deck ran pretty well, I do have a few concerns. I think that it probably needs an extra land or two; I have been playing various tempo style lists for awhile now. This list requires a bit more mana as you do want to be casting SFM, SCM, and Geist. You also want to be able to make these plays while holding up mana for counterspells and removal. I think that with that said, the deck probably wants to be running 19-20 land. While playing this deck, I basically felt like I was always in control. Against Maverick in round three, I kept loose openers and got punished for them. More specifically these were hands with low land counts. I think the match up shouldn't be bad as the deck has a really powerful midgame with equipment. But I think an extra land or two would help to make Wasteland oriented decks less of a problem.

Its funny I was actually considering a trans-formative sideboard plan that would have turned my above URW list into a list that ran stoneforge mystic. Its interesting to here that you had some decent results with the URW deck that runs a stoneforge package. I'm not sure how I'd feel about dropping the stifle/wasteland/daze plan though. Its a pretty strong package either way. I guess what I always wondered was how much better is this URW deck compared to an Esper Stoneblade list.

I'd be interested to hear your take on if you've played with the Esper Stoneblade lists at all, and how it might compare.

[Sturtzilla]

This was the direction I was going. Daze and Wasteland don't fit the theme of casting mana intensive spells. You'd either need cheap threats (Goose/Delver) or ways to cheat them into play (Aether Vial) if you want to run Daze/Wasteland.

I agree in part with this statement. Daze and Wasteland are awesome tempo cards but the way I have had the most success is running a configuration that straddles the early game with delvers (aggro/tempo) and the mid game with Geist, Equipment, and Snapcasters (midrange). While it is not as powerful in either role as say RUG at being a tempo deck or Stoneblade as being a midrange-to-control deck, this build can play either role well enough to beat most decks. It can change gears fairly well also. This means you can go aggro early with Delvers and then transition to control with Batterskull and removal/counterspells or just burn your opponent out with Bolts and Snapcasters. I don't think vial fits into this shell very well. The creatures span CMCs from 1-3 and it is another blank for Delver. I would rather play a more aggro-midrange style for this deck.



I'm not sure how I'd feel about dropping the stifle/wasteland/daze plan though. Its a pretty strong package either way. I guess what I always wondered was how much better is this URW deck compared to an Esper Stoneblade list. I'd be interested to hear your take on if you've played with the Esper Stoneblade lists at all, and how it might compare.

Well I am not going to say Stifle/Wasteland/Daze are not a solid set of cards. I think as we have kind of discussed here that while they are powerful, you want to have two mana for SFM and activations and three mana for Geist and Snapcaster. Both Daze and Wasteland play the opposing role by limiting your mana development. I have also been finding that players will assume you have Daze and/or Stifle if you open with Volcanic Island into Delver. So it is possible that the Dazes could be cut and opponents would still play around them. Also I have been noticing that good players typically can play around both Stifle and Daze a good portion of the time. Sure there are instances that an opponent is forced to play into either card, but careful play many times invalidates these cards.

As far as comparing this deck to Esper Stonblade, I am not totally sure what to say. It has been since before Lingering Souls was printed that I have actually played Esper. I can make some general statements about the two decks though. First :u::w::r: is on the lower end of the spectrum. It is trying to be an aggro deck into a fast midrange deck. Stoneblade can be a fast midrange deck or it can grind a long game in a more controlling role. These two decks are trying to do two very different things although they do run a few of the same cards. I have not played this exact matchup either. So I am not sure how it would play out.

If I were to run this deck again, which I probably will, I think I would play the following configuration:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull
4 Force of Will
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand

There are arguements to be made over the 4/2 split between SFM and SCM. It is possible that a 3/3 split would be better. Also it is possible that there should be a singleton Plateau in the manabase. I found myself wanting it once or twice. Maybe with a bit more practice piloting the deck that desire will change. It is possible that including a Glacial Fortress/Sulfur Falls might be useful as well to get around Choke. However I have not encountered that problem at this point.

I think the sideboard should be some combination of these cards. The exact configuration should probably depend on both the expected meta and the pilot's sideboarding plan/playstyle.

Surgical Extraction
Flusterstorm
Spell Pierce
Path to Exile
Red Elemental Blast
Pyroblast
Disenchant
Ethersworn Canonist
Jotan Grunt
Oblivion Ring
Sulfur Elemental
Detention Sphere
Counterflux
Supreme Verdict
Elspeth, Knight-Errant

[mikeisgo]

These two decks are trying to do two very different things although they do run a few of the same cards. I have not played this exact matchup either. So I am not sure how it would play out.

Yeah my point about stifle et all was sort of about preference.. I feel like you make the choice between that game plan and the stoneforge mystic game plan. I think thats why I was considering the sideboard plan for Stoneforge mystic. It might nto be a bad play for a matchup that is resistant to the wasteland/stifle combination. You could swap out stifle and dazes' for the stoneforge package, and beat them down in a different way. I think I'd need to actually play with that strategy and play with the stoneforge style deck to really get a handle on if its really a viable option though.

Fair enough about esper trying to do something a bit different than what the URW deck that uses geist does. I was just curious as to which really makes the better shell against most matchups. Since if you don't run SFM, that leaves spots open for other things (like stifle and or Lavamancer). It probably all comes down to what decks you want to beat I guess. Stifle/wasteland is assuming that people are all in on non-basics and fetchlands. I think a lot of people are starting to get more afraid of stifle/wasteland so they run more basic lands, which of course lessens the effect.

I think I might proxy up your SFM list though and play a few matches against some decks though to see how it works. I'm definitely intrigued.

[Sturtzilla]

I think I might proxy up your SFM list though and play a few matches against some decks though to see how it works. I'm definitely intrigued.

I have been playing the Vaporblade version for awhile. It is pretty powerful. However like I said there were times when Vapor Snag was dead or just not the right card. If you are going to stay mono-white something like Path is an alternative. However red offers Lightning Bolt which plays double duty as removal and also reach. I am pretty happy with the choice. The only consideration would be that it makes the mana base a little weaker to Wasteland. You can play around it using the basics.

[Arsenal]

UWR Delver, 6th out of 70th at a Euro tourney: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10459&iddeck=76278.

Having played UWR Delver for a couple weeks, I think that it does great versus combo and control decks, but against the BGx Goyf decks, it's pretty iffy. Goyf is such a beating for us and unless we're holding StP, it's pretty tough to deal with. UWR Delver, as with most tempo Delver decks, are fantastic in certain metas... mine is not one of them.

[Sturtzilla]

I think that it does great versus combo and control decks, but against the BGx Goyf decks, it's pretty iffy.

The build I am running has 4 StP, 2 Snapcaster, and 2-3 Jotan Grunt out of the board. In my testing that has been more than enough to put down Goyf decks. Grunt makes Goyf irrelevant and we still have the best all around removal spell in StP. Lightning Bolt also takes out a good cross section of threats. I find that by being careful with where I use my removal and having a prepared board, this is a non-issue.

[mikeisgo]

The build I am running has 4 StP, 2 Snapcaster, and 2-3 Jotan Grunt out of the board. In my testing that has been more than enough to put down Goyf decks. Grunt makes Goyf irrelevant and we still have the best all around removal spell in StP. Lightning Bolt also takes out a good cross section of threats. I find that by being careful with where I use my removal and having a prepared board, this is a non-issue.

You know.. Jotan Grunt is a good idea. I never had that or Rest in Peace in my board, so I found that I was winning a lot of game 1's against goyf/deathrite shaman decks, but losing the next 2 games. Partly my own play errors, but if i'd had something that nerfs their graveyard, I'd have been better off.

[DragoFireheart]

The build I am running has 4 StP, 2 Snapcaster, and 2-3 Jotan Grunt out of the board. In my testing that has been more than enough to put down Goyf decks. Grunt makes Goyf irrelevant and we still have the best all around removal spell in StP. Lightning Bolt also takes out a good cross section of threats. I find that by being careful with where I use my removal and having a prepared board, this is a non-issue.

You could also try to fit PtE somewhere in the 75 if larger creatures are an issue.

[kiblast]

Having played UWR Delver for a couple weeks, I think that it does great versus combo and control decks, but against the BGx Goyf decks, it's pretty iffy. Goyf is such a beating for us and unless we're holding StP, it's pretty tough to deal with. UWR Delver, as with most tempo Delver decks, are fantastic in certain metas... mine is not one of them.

I'm doing good with uwr delver in my local tournaments. Against BGx (and against 3colour decks in general) I try to go for mana denial as much as possible. I ply the full package 4 Wastelands 4 Stifle 4 Daze in a Geist list. Goyf is not a big deal when you are beating for 5/turn thanks to Delver and Grim Lavamancer. Your clock is faster and generally is one turn shorter thanks to bolt.

[guybrush3]

So, i have been posting this in wrong threads and now i think this is the right one.
Have tested it just wit ha friend wasn't bad but can't judge it really.

Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Geist of Saint Traft
1 gilded drake
2 stoneforge mystic or Vendilion Clique (to decide cuz it has a good interaction with Aethermage's) or Grim Lavamancer? (this means cutting umezawa too)
Spells
3 AEthermage's Touch
3 enginnereed explosives
4 Brainstorm
1 Dream Cache
1 Erratic Explosion
2 Magma Jet
4 Swords to Plowshares
Artifacts
3 Sensei's Divining
1 Umezawa's jitte
Lands
1academy ruins
2 wasteland
2 island
1 karakas
4 volcanic islands
4 plateau
4 tundra
4 flooded strand
1 underground sea

Planeswalkers
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

GOALS:
kill with creatures
control your deck with draw mechanics
be fast with low conv cmana cost drops
control the board via with swords and magma jet
alternative finisher is emrakul via aethermage (like natural order+progenitus does in a bant deck) . The reason why i prefer to do this via aethermage and not show and tell is:

GOOD things :
AeT is istant,u can play it at your end step or during the opponents turn end step. It has the surprise effect since u don't have to wait 1 turn to get rid of summoning sickness. You don't need the creature card to be in your hand and that means having something else instead of that draw card.
SaT cost 2U and you will be able to attack on turn 4. You can also drop many things in a row
BAD things:
AeT cost 4 you will able to attack on turn 5. It has white in his cost. The creature returns to your hand at the end of the turn. The creature has to be in the top4 cards of your library
SaT is a sorcery. You have to protect it for one entire opponent turn from removal.Opponents can also cast fatties.The creature has to be in your hand.It costs a lot of money , rofl.

Since aethermage needs library controlling support,brainstorm and jace are very helpfull. To note that Aethermage has also a good interaction with gilded drake.You steal it,then gilded drake returns to your hand.A nice trick in case you want to double steal a creature to your opponent. Explosion allow you to do more direct damage like magma jet does but since the deck is all about controlling the library it will allow u also to blow your opponent with 15 damage if u place emrakul on top of it.Dream cache is a fifth brainstorm and less costing Jace,but less effective of course. It will ,like brainstorm, allow you to put back on the top of your deck emrakul in case you draw it. The point is to not have him in hand but to keep it there with brainstorms , dream cache,jace and sensei's.

Things to keep in mind about how aethermage works:
If you reveal more than one creature card, you may put up to one of them onto the battlefield, and the rest of the revealed cards go on the bottom of your library. If you don't reveal any creature cards, all the revealed cards go on the bottom of your library.
If the creature leaves the battlefield before the end of your turn, it won't return to your hand at the end of your turn.
If you put a creature onto the battlefield this way during your end-of-turn step, it won't be returned to your hand until the end of your next turn.
If the triggered ability granted to the creature is countered (with Voidslime, for example), the creature will stay on the battlefield. At the end of your next turn, the ability will trigger again.
If a creature such as Clone copies the creature, it will not copy the triggered ability.
a nice read if you have time : http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/zm40

About gilded drake:
in a metagame where emrakul and fatties are pretty common gilded drake x1 is quite useful as a control creature. PPl used to play sower of temptation so i don't see why gilded can't have a chance these days (considering that u have delver as a blocker). Plus if you want to play it from the top of your deck via aethertouch you will able to control a creature without giving the opponent a 3/3 flyer...and i'll say more, you could recast it the next turn to control something else. I just thought it would be worth a spot. Maybe not,sorry if I tried something different :)

Other considerations: i was thinking at how creatures with "come into play" effect have a good sinergy with aerthtouch.. was thinking at Knight of the White Orchid + path to exile (instead of StP).
Keldon Marauders are also a nice treat via aethertouch... opponent 5 EoT u cast aethertouch and he suffers 1 damage.. your 5 turn u hit 3 (if not blocked). EoT they suffer 1 and u get back Keldon. Turn 6 u cast them for more damage..2 Turns of a nice total damage between 3-10 damage.

Question is: Does a deck like this survives without counters?

[JJ-JKidd]

Geist 2/2 body is too thin IMHO, especially if you do not run any "Blades." I have tried paying URW Geist-Blade and URW Geist-Stifle and my experience with the latter is that Geist in that deck gets easily killed by power-2 guys. How about the option of running Jittes?

[kiblast]

Geist 2/2 body is too thin IMHO, especially if you do not run any "Blades." I have tried paying URW Geist-Blade and URW Geist-Stifle and my experience with the latter is that Geist in that deck gets easily killed by power-2 guys. How about the option of running Jittes?

You have Grim Lavamancer + Bolts and probably Dismember as well for Goyfs/clearing path for your Geist. Or alternatively you can Stifle the trigger of the angel and 2nd main phase cast another Geist and just kill them with Angels.

[JJ-JKidd]

You have Grim Lavamancer + Bolts and probably Dismember as well for Goyfs/clearing path for your Geist. Or alternatively you can Stifle the trigger of the angel and 2nd main phase cast another Geist and just kill them with Angels.

If the argument of multiple removals to clear the way for GST then maybe running SCM is good, although it seems a bit counterproductive against GL. However, the added body+versatility on cards to flashback may it be a burn spell, StP, or a cantrip is in SCM's favor.

[twndomn]

The deck has top 8 at SCG event, doesn't that count for something?

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=57059

[JJ-JKidd]

The deck has top 8 at SCG event, doesn't that count for something?

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=57059

For how many weeks in succession now? I think it does.

[magicmoron]

Has anyone done any testing with the new M14 guy that acts as a limited rootmaze on a stick? Seems like he would definetly fit into a UWR shell.

[yaWgnorW]

I actually prefer this deck to other Delver decks. It has a lot of turn 1 plays, more so than any RUG or or BUG Delver variant. My current list:


//Creatures 12
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Vendilion Clique

//Spells 29
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

//Land 19
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Plateau
1 Karakas

//Sideboard 15
1x Vendilion Clique
2x Rest in Peace
2x Meddling Mage
2x Spell Pierce
1x Force of Will
2x Wear // Tear
2x Supreme Verdict
2x Boros Charm


Many versions ran 3 Geist, I like the full set. 29 Spells is plenty to make a Delver flip. I prefer this version to the other BUG or RUG varients because of the number of 1cc spells for turn 1, in addition to extra board control. Most lists ran 20 land, I'm comfortably running 19, may test 18 like how RUG does, but Geists 3cc scares me off from that. I think the main thing I have different is probably the Gitaxian Probe over Spell Pierce. I find it much more useful against most decks. This deck should seek to plan out its moves, like the opponent it cant afford to make a mistake. I put Spell Pierce in the side if it is needed. Also I found that 3 Grim Lavamancer is far more consistant than 2. It's another threat that needs to be dealt with.

The sideboard needs the most work. I'm not happy with a number of choices, really I just put in things during testing. Boros Charm is really the oddball here, but to be honest this card has done work. Either of its 3 abilities are relvant in the deck, be it a finisher, a surprise double-strike against a fat Goyf, or protecting your Geist from a global destruction effects.


Has anyone done any testing with the new M14 guy that acts as a limited rootmaze on a stick? Seems like he would definetly fit into a UWR shell.

Its a 2cc 2/1 white creature. Not sure we will get much use out if it in legacy. Not really many creatures with haste (Bloodbraid Elf) that this will really stop, or be better than another card in this type of deck. It would hurt Elves though.

[blindspotxxx]

Does Young Pyromancer belong in this deck? It seems good for a Tempo Deck

[Justin]

Does Young Pyromancer belong in this deck? It seems good for a Tempo Deck

I think he does, but you'll want to run Gitaxian Probe along with him.

[trollking21]

[QUOTE=yaWgnorW;737705]I actually prefer this deck to other Delver decks. It has a lot of turn 1 plays, more so than any RUG or or BUG Delver variant. My current list:

[cards]
//Creatures 12
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Vendilion Clique

//Spells 29
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

//Land 19
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Plateau
1 Karakas


With 19 land do you like karakas? It seems like 4 wasteland and 1 karakas is a little greedy on mana. Does gitaxian probe help?

[yaWgnorW]

With 19 land do you like karakas? It seems like 4 wasteland and 1 karakas is a little greedy on mana. Does gitaxian probe help?

Karakas is a keeper, with 4 Wasteland. It hasn't hurt me with 19 land. When I get it, of course its amazing with 4 Geist and 2 Cliques, not to mention anything my opponent has that I can use it on. In fact no issue at all with land count or overall mana base. I think 18 may be a bit too light and cross that 'greedy' line, however I'm comfortable at 19. A count of 20 just felt like it was too much.
4 Wasteland is pretty much spot on, and like I said I have no problems with Karakas and 4 Wastelands. This type of deck, as with any Delver/tempo variant, should try running 4.

Gitaxion Probe is one of my favorite new things for a deck like this. Compare it to a Thoughtseize (I know, I know, its not). You get the knowledge of their hand, allowing you to plan around whatever; which is something I feel is very important for the deck. While your not disrupting their hand, you are getting a new card, something this deck intends to do. It is another Turn 1 play, and has some nice synergy with Ponder + Brainstorm. Combo becomes a little bit weaker game 1 without Pierce, nothing boarding in won't address. If anything, think of it as cycling for free.


Does Young Pyromancer belong in this deck? It seems good for a Tempo Deck


I think he does, but you'll want to run Gitaxian Probe along with him.

I think the card has some possibilities in Delver decks like this...however I see just as many problems. I'm really only going to discuss what I see as more of a problem then benefit. 1 What do you cut? 2. How many do you run? Grim Lavamancer comes to mind first, but then you have a 2cc 1 toughness vs a 1cc 1 toughness. Do you like shocks that also help against Deathrite Shaman's graveyard love, or do you like the 1/1s that sideboards can address? Golgari Charm / Engineered Plague...some of the more common options at the moment.

If it is anything I've learned about this deck, is you do NOT want your opponent to resolve ANYTHING or have ANYTHING stick before turn 3. This includes, Deathrite Shaman, Stoneforge Mystic, Dark Confidant, just to name a few. These cards don't need to attack to be relevant, and out clock a token, and definitely block one of these tokens.

Now sure, if its anything like my list its 8 1cc answers to creatures (Bolt/STPS) in addition to Daze, Stifle, Wasteland. This means that Young Pyromancer will likely not be cast early due to risk of losing tempo. It's possibly even worse on the draw. Sure tokens are great for blocks...if your on the defense somethings probably wrong. Past the early game...its probably good, and goes back to do you want shocks or tokens? If your behind, however, or in a near top deck situation, which would you rather top deck? The COULD BE shocker, or the guy that COULD get you a token next turn.

Grim Lavamancer doesn't have to be the choice, but I don't imagine Delver dropping, or Geist dropping in this list, that doesn't leave much else to work with as we don't want to drop spells. Maybe running as a 2of in the deck? Maybe someone can list some of the positives as counter points.

Thoughts?

[blindspotxxx]

Pyromancer can take Snapcaster's spot. Deck has too many 3 ccs

[yaWgnorW]

Pyromancer can take Snapcaster's spot. Deck has too many 3 ccs

I don't run Snap Caster :*(***
I did originally, just wasn't impressed. It was difficult to use him before turn 7, and afterward I felt like I should be doing other things.

And the deck has ....4-5 3ccs? 4 Geist, 1 Clique in the main if we are discussing my version (with 19 land), 3 Geist and 1-2 Cliques if discussing most other versions (with 20 land). I don't see an issue.

[Cynic13th]

I don't run Snap Caster :*(***
I did originally, just wasn't impressed. It was difficult to use him before turn 7, and afterward I felt like I should be doing other things.

And the deck has ....4-5 3ccs? 4 Geist, 1 Clique in the main if we are discussing my version (with 19 land), 3 Geist and 1-2 Cliques if discussing most other versions (with 20 land). I don't see an issue.

If you wanted to try Young Pyro out, you could drop a Geist and Lavamancer and put 2 in. Right now that's the number of Lava and geist I'm running but with snapcasters in those slots (I find them useful, ymmv). I'll prob try them out (the Pyro) sometime as soon as I can get some even though I'm not particularly excited about them for some reason.

[yaWgnorW]

If you wanted to try Young Pyro out, you could drop a Geist and Lavamancer and put 2 in. Right now that's the number of Lava and geist I'm running but with snapcasters in those slots (I find them useful, ymmv). I'll prob try them out (the Pyro) sometime as soon as I can get some even though I'm not particularly excited about them for some reason.

I thought about what you suggested before. Don't get me wrong I do like snapcaster in this deck, but I just always felt I could find something better. My 3rd Lava and 4th Geist are just good in the meta...that's all that thought process was. I like the chance of getting it early against some decks. I'll likely try out the Young Pyro as well. It is probably on the best cards in the set.

[Cynic13th]

I thought about what you suggested before. Don't get me wrong I do like snapcaster in this deck, but I just always felt I could find something better. My 3rd Lava and 4th Geist are just good in the meta...that's all that thought process was. I like the chance of getting it early against some decks. I'll likely try out the Young Pyro as well. It is probably on the best cards in the set.

I've been thinking about putting another Geist in. He's basically what wins most games, since once's he's out he's super hard to deal with. I saw that you run 19 land, I'm running with 20, so I'm thinking of putting in my 4th Geist for a land... course I just have visions of having 2 mana out and 2 geist in hand...

As for the young pyro... I agree, he's prob one of the best cards and deserves a chance. I'll see if I can get some at Comic Con this weekend and play some games.

[yaWgnorW]

I've been thinking about putting another Geist in. He's basically what wins most games, since once's he's out he's super hard to deal with. I saw that you run 19 land, I'm running with 20, so I'm thinking of putting in my 4th Geist for a land... course I just have visions of having 2 mana out and 2 geist in hand...

As for the young pyro... I agree, he's prob one of the best cards and deserves a chance. I'll see if I can get some at Comic Con this weekend and play some games.

I'm pleased with the 4th Geist, but that 2 land, 1 Geist situation isn't necessary bad. While not ideal, there are 4 other cards in your hand that should be relevant. With this deck I don't mind not seeing Geist, as two of the 16 specific spells are in hand. Those being Bolt, STPS, Stifle, Daze, not to mention an additonal 6-8 in the form of Ponder and Brainstorm, or with mine Gitaxion Probe. Plenty of things to do and help out.

[Cire_dk]

Yesterday I played about 10 games with young Pyromancer. I cut 2 Snapcaster and did not play Probes. Rest of the list pretty standard with 20 lands (no Karakas although I feel like swapping 1 Karakas for a Tundra)

Pyromancer proved good if I needed to sacrifice a creatue and if I needed extra blockers. Often the 1 damage per turn helped to eat away opponents life.
It was not so good at 2 cc because, as mentioned before, it takes away some tempo.

Overall I have been pleased with it but I am not sure yet if it is a better card then Snapcaster for this list.

[yaWgnorW]

Yesterday I played about 10 games with young Pyromancer. I cut 2 Snapcaster and did not play Probes. Rest of the list pretty standard with 20 lands (no Karakas although I feel like swapping 1 Karakas for a Tundra)

Pyromancer proved good if I needed to sacrifice a creatue and if I needed extra blockers. Often the 1 damage per turn helped to eat away opponents life.
It was not so good at 2 cc because, as mentioned before, it takes away some tempo.

Overall I have been pleased with it but I am not sure yet if it is a better card then Snapcaster for this list.

Thanks for the little report on Young Pyro. Yeah, thats what I was worried about, his 2cc and the tempo loss. I mean legacy wise there isn't a better place for him then in Delver decks, but I think for him to work, it may have to be the more U/R Delver decks, not the 3 color.
While I haven't been using him, I recognize the utility Snapcaster brings. A surprise blocker that can take out a 2 toughness creature, in addition to flashing back bolt/StPs, among other choices. Young Pyro can't do that,and requires time to build up...something this deck doesn't want to provide.

[Cynic13th]

I took my not quite finished version to of the deck to Comic Con and played it in the Small Tourney they had on Saturday. There were only 6 of us but we did 3 rounds. I went 2-1 losing to a high tide deck. I just don’t know how to stop them from going off in 3-4 turns. Of course both games he waited till he had just one more turn before I killed him.

It’s a work in progress.

DECK
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

4 Brainstorm
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Force of Will

SIDEBOARD
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Wear // Tear
2 Rest in Peace
1 Force of Will


I am still looking for at least one more Geist and a Stifle for the deck, and probably another Geist and Engineered explosives for the SB. I had a couple of random cards in the SB to fill it out.

[yaWgnorW]

I took my not quite finished version to of the deck to Comic Con and played it in the Small Tourney they had on Saturday. There were only 6 of us but we did 3 rounds. I went 2-1 losing to a high tide deck. I just don’t know how to stop them from going off in 3-4 turns. Of course both games he waited till he had just one more turn before I killed him.

It’s a work in progress.

DECK
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

4 Brainstorm
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Force of Will

SIDEBOARD
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Wear // Tear
2 Rest in Peace
1 Force of Will


I am still looking for at least one more Geist and a Stifle for the deck, and probably another Geist and Engineered explosives for the SB. I had a couple of random cards in the SB to fill it out.

Well good try for what its worth. My version pushes Spell Pierce to the side in favor of Gitaxion Probe, so my combo match up is slightly weaker, but I do have 3 of those and 1 FoW in the side to bring in for the combo. I'd recommend working on those last 2 Geists, its really important and puts the clock on combo like no other. The 4th Stifle will help as well. High Tide is an awkward matchup for this kind of tempo deck I think.

[Kowitz]

I'm pretty new to legacy, and originally I was either going to build sneak show or RUG. But UWR is my favorite color combination! So I either wanted to build a blade deck splashing red, or delver. The delver deck seemed stronger, so this is the list I want to build(I have about half of it right now). Just a personal choice to run one of each basic land:

1 island
1 plains
1 mountain
3 tundra
3 volcanic island
3 flooded strand
3 scalding tarn
4 wasteland
1 karakas(not 100% sure on this)

1 Vendilion Clique
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Geist of Saint Traft

3 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
3 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares

Haven't decided on a sideboard yet. I'm gone away from my collection and stuff right now(damn military!) won't be able to play or build the deck for about a month or so, but when I get back, I'll put it together!

[Cynic13th]

I'm pretty new to legacy, and originally I was either going to build sneak show or RUG. But UWR is my favorite color combination! So I either wanted to build a blade deck splashing red, or delver. The delver deck seemed stronger, so this is the list I want to build(I have about half of it right now). Just a personal choice to run one of each basic land:

1 island
1 plains
1 mountain
3 tundra
3 volcanic island
3 flooded strand
3 scalding tarn
4 wasteland
1 karakas(not 100% sure on this)

1 Vendilion Clique
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Geist of Saint Traft

3 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
3 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares

Haven't decided on a sideboard yet. I'm gone away from my collection and stuff right now(damn military!) won't be able to play or build the deck for about a month or so, but when I get back, I'll put it together!

Looks ok, I think you'll want 8 fetch land total. The shuffle effect combined with your brainstorms and ponders is pretty awesome and key to making the deck work.
Other than that it looks good. I like snapcasters over grim lavamancers, but I'm pretty sure that could be personal preference.

[yaWgnorW]

I'm pretty new to legacy, and originally I was either going to build sneak show or RUG. But UWR is my favorite color combination! So I either wanted to build a blade deck splashing red, or delver. The delver deck seemed stronger, so this is the list I want to build(I have about half of it right now). Just a personal choice to run one of each basic land:

1 island
1 plains
1 mountain
3 tundra
3 volcanic island
3 flooded strand
3 scalding tarn
4 wasteland
1 karakas(not 100% sure on this)

1 Vendilion Clique
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Geist of Saint Traft

3 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
3 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares

Haven't decided on a sideboard yet. I'm gone away from my collection and stuff right now(damn military!) won't be able to play or build the deck for about a month or so, but when I get back, I'll put it together!

I'm military as well, so I know what that's like. Deck looks fine, however I'd say maybe consider dropping 1-2 Grim Lavamancer. I think 4 over does it a bit. I also agree with the person above, at least 8 Fetches. -1 Tundra and - 1 Mountain I'd say. I see you like to keep your basics for likely anti Wasteland plans, etc, but tempo decks tend to get away with being a little greedy.

Also, you said in the list you aren't sure about Karakas, I am, its a keeper. Here is my latest list, hasn't changed much however since my last posting of it.

R/W/U Delver

// Creatures 12
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Vendillion Clique

// Spells 29
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lighting Bolt
4 Stifle
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

// Land 19
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Plateau
1 Karakas

// Sideboard
2x Rest in Peace
2x Meddling Mage
3x Spell Pierce
1x Force of Will
2x Wear // Tear
1x Venser, Shaper Savant

// My sideboard is a work in progress right now. What I listed above is what I know I'll likely be running (the 3x Spell Pierce is also debatable) This is what I have been experimenting with:
1x Grafdiggers Cage
2x Supreme Verdict
// (likely to not happen)
2x Boros Charm
// (surprisingly awesome)

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Maybe this is off, but wouldn't a Jitte be a good addition? It's always been really good on a Geist in my Esperblade build...Doesn't mean you should play SFM but it is something that helps imo as much if not more than Boros Charm...

[yaWgnorW]

Maybe this is off, but wouldn't a Jitte be a good addition? It's always been really good on a Geist in my Esperblade build...Doesn't mean you should play SFM but it is something that helps imo as much if not more than Boros Charm...

There are U/W/R Delver versions that run SFM, with 2 equipments, so 6 extra cards. I never liked this because it took 6 spells away from Delver...but it has proven to still be a competitive deck, posting some good results. One day I'll give it a shot switching around some numbers, but I just prefer it with out SFM + equipments.

I do like the idea of a single Jitte, but to me to seems a bit unreliable just having 1. I say this because, well typically SFM is there to make it a 5 copy card. Now its really just a 1 copy, and requires 2 turns to activate. Esperblade is built to take that amount of turns to do something, this deck being tempo based is really not.

If this deck goes for the SFM package, Id suggest adopting the more tap-out strategy, (TA style). Otherwise, U/W/R without the SFM package is pretty reactive, till you want to drop that Geist and pound away.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I threw this together and I really like it. Here's what I put in:

12
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Grim Lavamancer

28
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
3 Daze
1 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle

1
1 Umezawa's Jitte

19
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra

15
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Geist of Saint Traft
13 Other (Work in Progress)

The metagame in my area is extremely "fair" which will show in my build, but it's easy enough to see what I did and how to realign it with a more spread and open meta. I think this is, for now, the best delver build I have seen. Ever. I like it.

[Sturtzilla]

4 Geist of Saint Traft

1 Geist of Saint Traft

The metagame in my area is extremely "fair" which will show in my build, but it's easy enough to see what I did and how to realign it with a more spread and open meta. I think this is, for now, the best delver build I have seen. Ever. I like it.

This looks like you just picked a bunch of cards that have been played in previous versions of UWR Tempo/Delver. Your card selection and moreover your values do not seem to follow any rhyme or reason. To determine if it works or not you must play the deck and garner results. Every deck can seem like the best deck on paper. Especially if you switched a few values and enjoy tooting your own horn. Also good luck running a list with 5 copies of Geist of Saint Traft in a real event. :tongue:

[Megadeus]

Also that mana base seems extremely greedy. Like Damn. Activating grim lava seems like it would be difficult in the face of a wasteland our two

[yaWgnorW]

This looks like you just picked a bunch of cards that have been played in previous versions of UWR Tempo/Delver. Your card selection and moreover your values do not seem to follow any rhyme or reason. To determine if it works or not you must play the deck and garner results. Every deck can seem like the best deck on paper. Especially if you switched a few values and enjoy tooting your own horn. Also good luck running a list with 5 copies of Geist of Saint Traft in a real event. :tongue:

LoL...I don't think I'll be as harsh, but I agree, I think posting a list that is similar to any of ours (especially mine) and say it is the best version is a bit...wrong. It really doesn't help when you say 'I just threw this together'. Additionally, you said you tuned yours to go against 'fair' decks, so that means (at the least) its the 'best' version you've seen against a fair meta.

I'm glad your trying Gitaxian Probe, I think more people should. I do think your making the mistake of playing 4 Grim Lava's. I think 3 is a stretch. It is what I run, but that's because I feel it is a great answer for Deathrite Shaman and other various 2-3 drops. 4 copies basically throws your priority off, and your not going to be really get this thing active right away. I'm also glad your running 4 Geists, I feel that is the way to go (after lots of testing). Don't underestimate that Vendilion Clique, however. It's something you don't have.

Your Jitte is also untested in this deck. Another issue to your claim. The reason jitte is questionable in TEMPO decks is it costs 2 to cast, and 2 to equip. You will likely spend two turns activating this, when you should be playing more passively, ensuring that creature stays on the board or ensuring they don't get some unmanageable threat. I don't think its bad, I just think its untested. It's also a 1 of. I think this will eventually be more costly than helpful. I'd rather run the 4th Daze, or 3rd FoW.

[Sturtzilla]

Also that mana base seems extremely greedy. Like Damn. Activating grim lava seems like it would be difficult in the face of a wasteland our two

I agree. Your proposed list has the same number of color producing sources as a typical RUG Delver list with an extra fetch. No basics and lots of fetches makes you weak to both Stifle and Wasteland. So in the face of either of these commonly played cards you are going to have a hard time getting much offense going. I think casting 1 of your 5 listed Geists may be possible but it is certainly going to be difficult in match ups with a mana denial angle of attack.

[yaWgnorW]

I agree. Your proposed list has the same number of color producing sources as a typical RUG Delver list with an extra fetch. No basics and lots of fetches makes you weak to both Stifle and Wasteland. So in the face of either of these commonly played cards you are going to have a hard time getting much offense going. I think casting 1 of your 5 listed Geists may be possible but it is certainly going to be difficult in match ups with a mana denial angle of attack.

Well, while I agree that his posting is questionable, I stand by the 4 copies of Geist (plenty of testing). My goal isn't to slam it down turn 3, and of course I've planned for that Wasteland/Stifle battle. I think the deck does fine with 19 lands. It's about timing as I'm sure you know.
On that note my list needs to be updated, probably do that soon. Majority of changes are to the manabase.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Jesus, I didn't mean my build was the best, but rather this thread. Also, I meant to type Vendilion Clique, not a 5th Geist. I have been playing this in a small playtest group, not tournament, lots of game 1's obv. since no completed sideboard. Wow. This works for myself, my playstyle and my meta. You don't have to like it, I was just going to join in on the conversation but I can see I should just butt out. I will leave you geniuses be and learn from the sidelines.

-ABC

[yaWgnorW]

Jesus, I didn't mean my build was the best, but rather this thread. Also, I meant to type Vendilion Clique, not a 5th Geist. I have been playing this in a small playtest group, not tournament, lots of game 1's obv. since no completed sideboard. Wow. This works for myself, my playstyle and my meta. You don't have to like it, I was just going to join in on the conversation but I can see I should just butt out. I will leave you geniuses be and learn from the sidelines.

-ABC

I think you just approached it wrong, you can't state something you just threw together is the best, regardless of whether or not you meant for the forum or wherever. I can only speak for myself, but I didn't really mean anything negative. If anything I tried to point out the issues in your main deck. If I thought 4 Grim Lavamancers was better than 3, I'd do it, but its not. In fact there isn't a legacy deck that runs 4. Every deck that runs it, for the most part is 2, and sometimes 3. I'd recommend adding the 4th Daze. It is important to have, and as long as your playing the deck right, win or lose your games should never go long enough to the point where Daze becomes obsolete. Also, if you run FoW in the main, its better to have 3 and up. This gives it more consistency, 2 and up seems like 2 dead cards. Misderection is great, I'd rather have the 3rd FoW, and save that for the side.
If I had a suggestion for your side, it would be 1 Vendilion Clique (so 2 total, 1 main 1 side), 4th copy of FoW, 2 Rest in Piece, 2 Meddling Mage, 2 Wear // Tear, and if needed extra Spell Pierce. That's not knowing your meta. If your meta is a bunch of fair decks, I see why you only run 2 FoW, however I'd just cut it out all together if you don't plan on getting out of that meta. Thats 2 more spots for more relevant cards, such as that 4th StpS or something else.

[Sturtzilla]

Jesus, I didn't mean my build was the best, but rather this thread. Also, I meant to type Vendilion Clique, not a 5th Geist. I have been playing this in a small playtest group, not tournament, lots of game 1's obv. since no completed sideboard. Wow. This works for myself, my playstyle and my meta. You don't have to like it, I was just going to join in on the conversation but I can see I should just butt out. I will leave you geniuses be and learn from the sidelines.

-ABC

My problem with your previous post is the assumption that your list (or a list developed from information contained in this thread) is the best with little to no testing. Game ones are great, but only 33-50% of the games you will play in a real tournament. Without testing sideboarded games you are really only getting a feel for how your maindeck functions. What I am saying is that your games two and three are more important as you will be playing more (or equal) games post board than preboard over the course of an entire tournament.

You didn't check over your values to make sure that the list was even tourney legal. How do you expect others to trust your advice/analysis when you are unable to post a legal decklist/count to 5? I know this may come across as harsh and I don't intend to make you feel unwelcome, just please tighten up your posts. You very well may be onto a solid list. Run it in some events. Post tourney reports and your results. This will get everyone farther along than claiming a specific list is the best without solid testing.

[Cynic13th]

So I'm going to the local Tournament this weekend. There should be around 30+ in what I think is a combo heavy meta.
This is what I'm thinking about running:

Land
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Vendilion Clique

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
3 Force of Will

Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Wear // Tear
2 Meddling Mage
2 Rest in Peace
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Force of Will

I'm still looking for a 4th Stifle and Geist. Though if I got the Geist he might go straight to the SB. I'm not sure what I would take out if/when I get the 4th stifle. Prob a Daze or Spell Pierce. Any thoughts? It plays pretty good, I wish I could get more testing in before the tourney cause I'm also tempted to go to 19 land.
Cheers.

[Koby]

I'm still looking for a 4th Stifle and Geist. Though if I got the Geist he might go straight to the SB. I'm not sure what I would take out if/when I get the 4th stifle. Prob a Daze or Spell Pierce. Any thoughts? It plays pretty good, I wish I could get more testing in before the tourney cause I'm also tempted to go to 19 land.
Cheers.

I recommend playing the 19th land as this deck consistently wants to reach 3 mana for Geist and Snapcaster Mage. Otherwise, 18 lands would be fine just like it is in RUG Delver.

[Cynic13th]

I recommend playing the 19th land as this deck consistently wants to reach 3 mana for Geist and Snapcaster Mage. Otherwise, 18 lands would be fine just like it is in RUG Delver.
I'm at 20 now (including 4 wasteland), I'm debating dropping one, most likely the island.

[Koby]

I'm at 20 now (including 4 wasteland), I'm debating dropping one, most likely the island.

You might want to bump up Ponder to 4 if you're cutting a land in that case. Being able to make your land-drops are going to be a critical part of your early game.

[yaWgnorW]

So I'm going to the local Tournament this weekend. There should be around 30+ in what I think is a combo heavy meta.
This is what I'm thinking about running:

Land
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Vendilion Clique

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Ponder
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
3 Force of Will

Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Wear // Tear
2 Meddling Mage
2 Rest in Peace
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Force of Will

I'm still looking for a 4th Stifle and Geist. Though if I got the Geist he might go straight to the SB. I'm not sure what I would take out if/when I get the 4th stifle. Prob a Daze or Spell Pierce. Any thoughts? It plays pretty good, I wish I could get more testing in before the tourney cause I'm also tempted to go to 19 land.
Cheers.

I like your list. I'm also glad you stated your entering a combo heavy meta, it clears the way for those FoW, Spell Pierce. I will say this however, in a combo heavy meta, I'm not sure how 3 Snapcaster Mage will do. I know that I'd want that 4th Geist in one of its places. It's a combo killer. The clock is amazing, and one of the reasons Geist found its way into Deathblade decks. You may also be able to get away with dropping 1 Bolt or 1 StpS, if your really really sure its a lot of combo. I'm content on 19 lands with 4 Geist. 18 lands is low for this deck running multiple cards with 3cc+. 20 is good but I think unnecessary, but 19 to me is just right. (plenty of testing) 18 really just seems risky and overly greedy. RUG Delver gets away with it but doesn't run the 3cc cards we want too.

All that being said, I like your list.


I recommend playing the 19th land as this deck consistently wants to reach 3 mana for Geist and Snapcaster Mage. Otherwise, 18 lands would be fine just like it is in RUG Delver.

Another good point about the 19th land. Snapcaster is often not included in that calculation. I don't run Snapcaster in my list, however it is something I do enjoy playing with.


I'm at 20 now (including 4 wasteland), I'm debating dropping one, most likely the island.

I'd recommend dropping to 19, as hinted by the last 2 pages of my posts (including this). Just try it, do some tests. I'm sure you'll end up liking it.


You might want to bump up Ponder to 4 if you're cutting a land in that case. Being able to make your land-drops are going to be a critical part of your early game.

Tempo decks love play-sets of Ponder thats for sure. This or a Daze.

[Cynic13th]

I like your list. I'm also glad you stated your entering a combo heavy meta, it clears the way for those FoW, Spell Pierce. I will say this however, in a combo heavy meta, I'm not sure how 3 Snapcaster Mage will do. I know that I'd want that 4th Geist in one of its places. It's a combo killer. The clock is amazing, and one of the reasons Geist found its way into Deathblade decks. You may also be able to get away with dropping 1 Bolt or 1 StpS, if your really really sure its a lot of combo. I'm content on 19 lands with 4 Geist. 18 lands is low for this deck running multiple cards with 3cc+. 20 is good but I think unnecessary, but 19 to me is just right. (plenty of testing) 18 really just seems risky and overly greedy. RUG Delver gets away with it but doesn't run the 3cc cards we want too.

All that being said, I like your list.



Another good point about the 19th land. Snapcaster is often not included in that calculation. I don't run Snapcaster in my list, however it is something I do enjoy playing with.



I'd recommend dropping to 19, as hinted by the last 2 pages of my posts (including this). Just try it, do some tests. I'm sure you'll end up liking it.



Tempo decks love play-sets of Ponder thats for sure. This or a Daze.

Interesting points.

I hope to pick up a 4th Geist, but we'll see. I might drop a land for a ponder and a snapcaster for putting the Clique in the Main, since they're good vs. combo as well.
I hope to get some testing in, but time is short. (damn this working for a living thing)

Cheers.

[yaWgnorW]

Interesting points.

I hope to pick up a 4th Geist, but we'll see. I might drop a land for a ponder and a snapcaster for putting the Clique in the Main, since they're good vs. combo as well.
I hope to get some testing in, but time is short. (damn this working for a living thing)

Cheers.

Yes, damn that thing that provides us with the thing for more cards.

Good luck and please if you don't mind post your results when you can. I'm interested to see how your list performs, what decks you face, etc etc.

Oh, I'd also like to say, in regard to land count. I run 19 lands without Snapcaster, just for reference. Running more than 2 would likely effect that for me.

[Cynic13th]

Yes, damn that thing that provides us with the thing for more cards.

Good luck and please if you don't mind post your results when you can. I'm interested to see how your list performs, what decks you face, etc etc.

Oh, I'd also like to say, in regard to land count. I run 19 lands without Snapcaster, just for reference. Running more than 2 would likely effect that for me.

I'll try to take some notes, and post up here. Should be 5 rounds of swiss at least, so I'll get some games in no matter what. We'll also see if I guessed right with the meta, or if I've just been unlucky with what I've seen/played.

Cheers.

[Cire_dk]

I wonder if it would be possible to find a space for Karakas. It would protect geist for mass removal like supreme verdict and sacrifice (Lili) effects and would give our clique an option for extra hand disruption (although expensive)
With our greedy mana base I am not sure if we could afford it but others have mentioned Karakas and I wondered if it would be a viable option?

[yaWgnorW]

I wonder if it would be possible to find a space for Karakas. It would protect geist for mass removal like supreme verdict and sacrifice (Lili) effects and would give our clique an option for extra hand disruption (although expensive)
With our greedy mana base I am not sure if we could afford it but others have mentioned Karakas and I wondered if it would be a viable option?

Like I said, I use it with 19 land. I accept my mana base is greedy, but it could be worse i think. i have thought about taking Karakas out, but its never hurt me.

[(nameless one)]

Remember Star Spangled Slaughter back in old extended?

This has it written all over it. That is awesome.

[Cynic13th]

Sorry to say I did not make the tournament today. Spent all morning at the vet with my cat.:cry:
It's been a crappy weekend. There is one close by Next weekend, hopefully I can make that one.

[Cire_dk]

Eric Smith booked some great results again with UWR delver. http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=57840

Since I am fairly new to this deck and the forum regarding the deck I wonder if Eric posts here as well. I woul d be very interested in a short report and why he swapped Snapcaster for Stoneforge. (Obviously to get a number one instead of no 4 result :tongue:? )

The more I practice with this deck, the more I learn, the more I like it :cool:

[Esper3k]

I'm surprised there are no comments yet on Gerrard Fabiano's decklist for his win last night:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=57895

[yaWgnorW]

I'm surprised there are no comments yet on Gerrard Fabiano's decklist for his win last night:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=57895

I watched his games, after I saw his list I began rooting for it. I was initially hesistant on the Stoneforge package in this deck, but no one can argue those results from this past weekend. I do like his list, although I'd rather drop the Vclick for 1 more Geist.

[Cynic13th]

I watched his games, after I saw his list I began rooting for it. I was initially hesistant on the Stoneforge package in this deck, but no one can argue those results from this past weekend. I do like his list, although I'd rather drop the Vclick for 1 more Geist.
Which is what http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=57840 Erik Smith did, same deck but with geist over the vclique
They both did really well, but is definitely a stoneforge variant.

[Esper3k]

Ok I didn't notice that the two lists were almost identical.

It's a pretty sweet list combining beef of SFM+BS with the aggro element of Delver!

[Griselpuff]

Was building RUG, then saw the recent finishes and looked at my collection... looks like I have UWR Delver already built! I guess my wallet can hold off on Goyfs

Question: Is EE actually good in this deck? Not sure what I would side it in against, I have 0's, 1's, 2's and 3's... Maybe against TES or Elves?

Also, how greedy is playing Karakas? It's good with Clique... Maybe I'll play it as my 20th land? There 8 white spells and 3 ways of using the white mana beyond those spells in the MD and 6 white spells in the board. On the other hand, it's not super helpful since Geist already has Hexproof and there is only 1 Clique.

I also think the deck should play Sulfur Elemental. It's siding out the Geists against white creature decks, and Stoneforge being a 0/1 doesn't seem terribly relevant, and Sulfur Elemental is just nuts.

Finally RIP >> Relic. Card is nuts against RUG and Storm whereas Relic is just good.

[Barbed Blightning]

Was building RUG, then saw the recent finishes and looked at my collection... looks like I have UWR Delver already built! I guess my wallet can hold off on Goyfs

Question: Is EE actually good in this deck? Not sure what I would side it in against, I have 0's, 1's, 2's and 3's... Maybe against TES or Elves?

Also, how greedy is playing Karakas? It's good with Clique... Maybe I'll play it as my 20th land? There 8 white spells and 3 ways of using the white mana beyond those spells in the MD and 6 white spells in the board. On the other hand, it's not super helpful since Geist already has Hexproof and there is only 1 Clique.

I also think the deck should play Sulfur Elemental. It's siding out the Geists against white creature decks, and Stoneforge being a 0/1 doesn't seem terribly relevant, and Sulfur Elemental is just nuts.

Finally RIP >> Relic. Card is nuts against RUG and Storm whereas Relic is just good.

Actually, SFM becomes a 2/1 and Geist a 3/1 with sulfur out -- not to mention the 5/3 angel token.

I like the 19th land as either a basic Island or Karakas. Karakas has the nice bonus of hating out sneak & show, reanimator and saving your geist/clique from board wipes.

[yaWgnorW]

Actually, SFM becomes a 2/1 and Geist a 3/1 with sulfur out -- not to mention the 5/3 angel token.

I like the 19th land as either a basic Island or Karakas. Karakas has the nice bonus of hating out sneak & show, reanimator and saving your geist/clique from board wipes.

I've ran 19 land with Karakas. It is greedy, it has been worth it; however if your truly hooked on the most consistent setup, don't run it. Proof is in the last few top SCG decklists. I also think Sulfur Elemental should not be in the deck, especially not over Geist.

[Barbed Blightning]

I've ran 19 land with Karakas. It is greedy, it has been worth it; however if your truly hooked on the most consistent setup, don't run it. Proof is in the last few top SCG decklists. I also think Sulfur Elemental should not be in the deck, especially not over Geist.

True, the 4th tundra seems sturdiest.

I like sulfur in the board. Takes out mom and family, while the removal suite can do its thing.

[yaWgnorW]

True, the 4th tundra seems sturdiest.

I like sulfur in the board. Takes out mom and family, while the removal suite can do its thing.

Sulfur in board is better than main for sure. It is a relevant consideration.

[Kowitz]

Are there any benefits of running pyroblast over red elemental blast in the board, or the other way around? I'm just asking because I already own 4x Pyroblast.

[roflecones]

Are there any benefits of running pyroblast over red elemental blast in the board, or the other way around? I'm just asking because I already own 4x Pyroblast.

They're functionaly identical, so not really. I suppose you could use both to play around effects that prevent a named card from being played such as meddling mage or discard/exile effects like extirpate or cabal therapy.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Are there any benefits of running pyroblast over red elemental blast in the board, or the other way around? I'm just asking because I already own 4x Pyroblast.

The difference between the two is that Pyro can target any spell (but will only counter if it's blue) but REB can ONLY target blue spells, that only matters with storm where they can theoretically cast pyro targeting anything to up their storm count (I've never seen this done TBH, but apparently it's been done), otherwise, both do virtually the same thing.

Really comes down ti which ones art you prefer, or if you have access to beta REB.

[Kowitz]

Okay, that is what I thought. I guess I will just keep the pyroblast, since I have them and they are black border. Maybe one day I'll decide to make the deck fancy and get some beta REB.

[SirTylerGalt]

Pyroblast can also be cast to destroy a Phantasmal Image copying a non-blue creature.

REB cannot be misdirected to a non-blue permanent.

I play 2 Pyroblasts in RUG Delver. I would play 2 Pyro 1 REB if I needed a third, to play around Cabal Therapy and Surgical.

[Madmankevinx]

I don't like a maindeck Karakas. I love having one basic Island next to 3/3 Volcanic/Tundra. Karakas will force mulligans every now and then, that's just the truth of the math. I also like the option of having the basic Island out in a Delver heavy hand with the assurance that I can cast my Ponder/Brainstorm without worrying about opposing Wastelands. I think the one of Island just adds consistency. Other than that I am actually on Gerard's list + 1 Ponder for a 61 card deck (with the Island substitution). This deck feels great to pilot, and as a fairly experienced RUG player (including one large undefeated tourney win) I get the feeling that this stoneforge/delver package with 2 Geist/1 Clique is pretty solid. As usual with a Tempo-ish list, your sideboard really counts! Grats to Gerard and Eric!

[Kowitz]

I'm still undecided as to if I want to build the version with the SFM and equipment package or not. Both lists seem strong.

Is there room in this deck for fire // ice? It seems like it could be really strong.

[Vedalken]

From personal experience, running against the deck with RuG last monday at a local tournament, Stoneforge really is strong for the deck. It gives consistency and a better match up against aggro and control. The reason being that you need to deal with her has quickly as possible making the opponent use resource and card advantage and that if you don't she puts a serious clock on your head (4/4 vigilance lifelink with a delver hitting you is nothing to laught of). The battlerskull also just soften up the late game to easily. Having each turn a 4/4 vigilance or a geast with jitte and battlerskull just wrecks face and trade with pretty much anything.


Has for the s/f/I, It has been discussed and said somewhere in the thread that some game the creature control actually even clog your hand. that is also why lately most list have been running 3 STP instead of 4. thought if you are running in a really aggro meta with little to no combo deck I would suggest you maybe trying it has it can give serious tempo. going 1for2 with delver or even tapping a goyf for a extra geist hit can be serious tempo and card advantage. it's your call. If I where to play it, I probably wouldn't run more then a 1 or 2 and it probably would have to take the place of the creature control we already have since the conterspell base is already low and I wouldn't see myself running less then 7 cantrip in a deck has mana intensive has this one. also just to point out that grim lavamancer his a mvp when it comes down to control creature so I really dont know About fire and Ice.


Regarding another subject. I have just builded the deck and I have not that much experience playing it has much has I have playing against it. Now the question his. His karakas worth it or his the deck too mana intensive on red and blue. we have 4 bolt and grim lavamancer that need's red to really shine and I feel like having that 1 plain can be a savior yet a pain for the early if playing against a deck with land control. what are your opinion on it. I am planning on running 3 geist and 1 cliq mainboard with 1 cliq in the sideboard so I was wondering if anyone had it play tested with the recent change to the list.


Note: the reason why I am bringing this back is because before most people that where discussing karakas didn't have SFM in there list at the time but with her addition, the white mana curve has gotten higher and it feels like it wouldn't actually be a pain to run even considering the 4 waste land.


Now with the current meta game, how many rest in peace are appropriated to run in the side board if I where to go at a 100-200 legacy tournament. It can really just win you game.

[yaWgnorW]

I'm still undecided as to if I want to build the version with the SFM and equipment package or not. Both lists seem strong.

Is there room in this deck for fire // ice? It seems like it could be really strong.

The results the deck posted from the recent invitational is pretty hard to argue, and it ran the SFM package. There were versions from previous legacy that didn't run the SFM package, and also had success.

I've just recently started trying out this SFM stuff. I like it, and I don't. I need to test and compare more, but right now I almost still favor of it without, but in my few amount of games, the SFM only impacted 2 games, while the others it won without.

[somethingdotdotdot]

I've been testing the scg list a bit and made the following changes: -1 geist, -1 daze, +1 swords, +1 sfm. From testing, the deck sometimes just doesn't get to 3 mana; tapping out for geist has also been meh a lot of the time since they then proceed to either liliana him or just set up a goyf wall. SFM has been pretty amazing over snap, simply because she costs 2 mana while snap costs 3. This makes her a lot more aggressive than snap, which the deck needed imo.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Are there any benefits of running pyroblast over red elemental blast in the board, or the other way around? I'm just asking because I already own 4x Pyroblast.

I once Pyroblasted a land to increase storm for Flusterstorm.

[yaWgnorW]

I've been testing the scg list a bit and made the following changes: -1 geist, -1 daze, +1 swords, +1 sfm. From testing, the deck sometimes just doesn't get to 3 mana; tapping out for geist has also been meh a lot of the time since they then proceed to either liliana him or just set up a goyf wall. SFM has been pretty amazing over snap, simply because she costs 2 mana while snap costs 3. This makes her a lot more aggressive than snap, which the deck needed imo.

How much testing? And which version, some ran 2 Geist, some 3. Daze is also a card that fluctuates between 3 and 4, but the recent invitational I believe all ran 4. I've found 4 is ideal simply because you want it in your opening hand + 3 cards. And if your successful in keeping them on a low land count, a 2nd Daze is more likely to come.

Honestly, the original versions of this deck didn't run the SFM package, and always ran 20 land. Now they are running the SFM package with 19 land, something I was a big advocate on a few pages back. It clearly works, and in my testing I've rarely had a problem hitting 3 mana, and thats with plenty of testing. Its about timing. Don't just Wasteland because you can, a lot of players make this mistake. I've learned not to tap out for Geist, its too aggressive...unless you have a Daze and have some hunch they only have one counter. I find that with the Ponders and Brainstorms I don't usually have a problem hitting lands.

The reason I am still slightly for the version without SFM package is because I like running 4 Geists. Running 3 is fine, but its hard to get that 2nd one if I need too. The SFM variant doesn't let us play 4, and I don't think most people would want too.

If I've found the deck to have any problem, it is its 12 creatures. Yes other tempo decks run 12 also, to maximize your spells and Delver flips, I know. But the problem doesn't come from the land, it comes from running out of threats if your opponent has a well stocked hand.


I once Pyroblasted a land to increase storm for Flusterstorm.

LoL, amazing.

[somethingdotdotdot]

My testing was only for a couple of hours, perhaps 15-20 games versus a bug delver deck and a snt deck. I admit i did use my wastelands quite aggressively, but mostly to wreck his mana base; in turn he wasted me back quite a bit as well. I suppose the 3 mana is a lot more trivial when not facing the tempo mirror; however, I was still running into the situation where the single geist on the field just didnt do anything. It was just completely blanked by an opposing goyf or stalker so he became a psionic blast. Thats not to say thats necessarily bad or anything, but I felt like the sfm's provided a more relevant threat throughout the game--be it grabbing jitte late game or a batterskull turn 3. More testing will definitely tell and I want to like geist more in the deck, but there's often not a great time to cast him.

Edit: by the scg list I mean the two lists that topped this previous weekend. I started with the 3x geist version rather than the 2xgeist, 1 clique one.

[Vedalken]

[QUOTE=somethingdotdotdot;741360] I was still running into the situation where the single geist on the field just didnt do anything. It was just completely blanked by an opposing goyf or stalker so he became a psionic blast. Thats not to say thats necessarily bad or anything, but I felt like the sfm's provided a more relevant threat throughout the game--be it grabbing jitte late game or a batterskull turn 3. More testing will definitely tell and I want to like geist more in the deck, but there's often not a great time to cast him.

this^^

usually you would think that the geist would get easily blocked by bigger treat and simply become almost useless. Well I found that with the SFM he just became 3 time stronger. having the opportunity to actually equip it on geist to make him a 6/6 vigilance his just in my opinion alot more stable. Like I said earlier, people not running the SFM package didn't want to run it because it was a lost of tempo. Well I found that if you manage to actually get a turn 3 battler skull in play, it is actually insane tempo. also the fact that she cost 2 simply smooth-en the mana curve since from turn 3 you can cast her and have a mana open and then apply the activate ability and still have 1 mana open.

I really dislike taping out to cast geist and that's why I have been running the version with 2 geist 1 cliq. Having more space I would probably add a 13 creature and it would assurely be another cliq. even thought she cost 3 mana, the fact that she has flash just negates that for me. because in testing she was just amazing and she literally won me games because of people having difficulty dealing with her. she also shines in mirror and more aggressive match up and definitely help vs the combo matchup.

I personally wouldn't cut the 4th daze. having more then 1 during the game was alwas a savior especially with the mana denial plan we have main deck.

[mikeisgo]

usually you would think that the geist would get easily blocked by bigger treat and simply become almost useless. Well I found that with the SFM he just became 3 time stronger. having the opportunity to actually equip it on geist to make him a 6/6 vigilance his just in my opinion alot more stable. Like I said earlier, people not running the SFM package didn't want to run it because it was a lost of tempo. Well I found that if you manage to actually get a turn 3 battler skull in play, it is actually insane tempo. also the fact that she cost 2 simply smooth-en the mana curve since from turn 3 you can cast her and have a mana open and then apply the activate ability and still have 1 mana open.

I really dislike taping out to cast geist and that's why I have been running the version with 2 geist 1 cliq. Having more space I would probably add a 13 creature and it would assurely be another cliq. even thought she cost 3 mana, the fact that she has flash just negates that for me. because in testing she was just amazing and she literally won me games because of people having difficulty dealing with her. she also shines in mirror and more aggressive match up and definitely help vs the combo matchup.

I personally wouldn't cut the 4th daze. having more then 1 during the game was alwas a savior especially with the mana denial plan we have main deck.


I totally agree with your statement that having SfM makes geist like 3 times better. That thinking is what leads me down the path of 4 Geist, 4 SfM, 4 Delver in my list currently.

[Barbed Blightning]

I totally agree with your statement that having SfM makes geist like 3 times better. That thinking is what leads me down the path of 4 Geist, 4 SfM, 4 Delver in my list currently.

My concern with beefing up the SFM/Geist count is that it creates a heavy curve for your threats; you'd probably want the 20th land. Geist has also been lackluster for me-- when he's free to swing I'm winning anyway and he can't do much of anything on the defensive.

I'm actually thinking about the following:

Creatures (12)
4 Delver
3 SFM
3 Lavamancer
2 Clique

Artifacts (2)
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte

Spells (27)
4 Lightning Bolt
3 StP
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Daze
3 FoW
2 Spell Pierce

Lands (19)
8 Fetches
4 Wasteland
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic
1 Basic Island

-----

Lavamancer and Delver give you solid one-drops that act as lightning rods so your SFM can stick around for a turn to do her thing. Clique is an excellent finisher that doubles as disruption. Were I not running SFM, I'd be on the 3 Geist plan; however the existence of Batterskull and Jitte make the loss of Geist a minor one.

[Griselpuff]

Can somebody tell me what ee is for? We play three colors but we have threats at every cc from 0 to 3...

[H]

Can somebody tell me what ee is for? We play three colors but we have threats at every cc from 0 to 3...

Shroud/Hexproof (Mongoose/Geist) are definite problems. EE deals with this and more, for example, in the way you can get it under Chalices.

[mikeisgo]

Shroud/Hexproof (Mongoose/Geist) are definite problems. EE deals with this and more, for example, in the way you can get it under Chalices.

Goblin token or zombie tokens as well..

[747]

played on a 70 - player legacy event with erik smith's scg invitational winning deck list. went 5-0-2 (1st after swiss). ended the tournament at 3rd place.

(i was about to post a full tournament report, but i dropped my phone, i'll just post my SB options & work on the tournament report some other time.)

1st round VS reanimator 2-0 ** on the draw
out: 4 bolt, 1 jitte, 1 bskull, 3 sfm, 2 stp
in: 1 fow, 2 relic, 1 surgical, 2 meddling, 2 reb, 2 flusterstorm, 1 clique

2nd round VS the gates 2-0 ** on the draw
out: 4 bolt, 1 jitte
in: 2 flusterstorm, 1 sofaf, 1 stp, 1 clique

3rd round VS uw merfolks (white for stp & sfm, with MD caverns) 2-0 ** on the play
out: 2 spell pierce, 3 fow
in: 1 stp, 2 reb, 1 EE, 1 wear // tear

4th round VS punishing jund (finalist after playoffs) 2-0 ** on the play
out: 3 fow, 4 daze,
in: 2 relic, 1 EE, 1 surgical, 1 clique, 1 sofaf, 1 stp

5th round VS urb omnishow (red for burning wish, black for thoughtseize, top 8) 2-1 ** on the draw
out: 4 bolt, 3 stp, 1 jitte, 1 sfm, 2 lavamancer
in: 2 flusterstorm, 2 reb, 1 surgical, 1 clique, 1 sofaf, 2 meddling, 1 fow, 1 wear // tear

6th round VS death & taxes ID
7th round VS punishing jund ID

top 8 was..
urw delver (me) vs urw delver also
- i won 2-0 ** on the play

urb omnishow (5th rd opp) vs sneak show
- sneak show wins 2-1 (3rd game was, when omni player casted thoughtseize, counter wars, till thoughtseize resolves, revealing 1 fow, 1 spell pierce, 1 through the breach.. fow gets discarded, omnishow player played s&t revealing emrakul & nothing on the other side. omnishow player passed with only lotus petal as an available mana source, & 1 fow, 1 burning wish on hand, life was 13 for sneak show and 14 for omni. sneak show player rips it, griselbrand topdecked, drew 7 cards, casted cantrips & sneak attack but no emrakul, attacks for 7 and passes. omni player drew his card, attacks, annihilate trigger, sneak player floated red and sneaked a griselbrand into play, blocks emrakul and drew another 7 cards, after combat, sneak player is left with only sneak attack as his permanent, omni passes. sneak show draws a card, played the last red source of his deck. and sneaked an emrakul)

death & taxes VS punishing jund (4th rd opp)
- punishing jund wins

alluren VS punishing jund
- alluren wins
..
top 4 was..
me VS sneak show
0-2 sneak show wins

punishing jund VS alluren
2-1 for punishing jund
(they played on the swiss also, but ended the match as a draw. on their MU's, alluren beats jund on all game 1's)
..
both finalist's agreed on splitting the prizes..

**
if given a chance to play the deck again, i would put 1 ethersworn canonist, 1 enlightened tutor, and a 2nd vendilion clique..
ethersworn canonist - for counter wars against combo decks. with an active canonist, he'll play a key combo piece (non-artifact), i will counter, then he can't counter back, therefore, another turn for me.. tempo.

[blindspotxxx]

played on a 70 - player legacy event with erik smith's scg invitational winning deck list. went 5-0-2 (1st after swiss). ended the tournament at 3rd place.

(i was about to post a full tournament report, but i dropped my phone, i'll just post my SB options & work on the tournament report some other time.)

1st round VS reanimator 2-0 ** on the draw
out: 4 bolt, 1 jitte, 1 bskull, 3 sfm, 2 stp
in: 1 fow, 2 relic, 1 surgical, 2 meddling, 2 reb, 2 flusterstorm, 1 clique

2nd round VS the gates 2-0 ** on the draw
out: 4 bolt, 1 jitte
in: 2 flusterstorm, 1 sofaf, 1 stp, 1 clique

3rd round VS uw merfolks (white for stp & sfm, with MD caverns) 2-0 ** on the play
out: 2 spell pierce, 3 fow
in: 1 stp, 2 reb, 1 EE, 1 wear // tear

4th round VS punishing jund (finalist after playoffs) 2-0 ** on the play
out: 3 fow, 4 daze,
in: 2 relic, 1 EE, 1 surgical, 1 clique, 1 sofaf, 1 stp

5th round VS urb omnishow (red for burning wish, black for thoughtseize, top 8) 2-1 ** on the draw
out: 4 bolt, 3 stp, 1 jitte, 1 sfm, 2 lavamancer
in: 2 flusterstorm, 2 reb, 1 surgical, 1 clique, 1 sofaf, 2 meddling, 1 fow, 1 wear // tear

6th round VS death & taxes ID
7th round VS punishing jund ID

top 8 was..
urw delver (me) vs urw delver also
- i won 2-0 ** on the play

urb omnishow (5th rd opp) vs sneak show
- sneak show wins 2-1 (3rd game was, when omni player casted thoughtseize, counter wars, till thoughtseize resolves, revealing 1 fow, 1 spell pierce, 1 through the breach.. fow gets discarded, omnishow player played s&t revealing emrakul & nothing on the other side. omnishow player passed with only lotus petal as an available mana source, & 1 fow, 1 burning wish on hand, life was 13 for sneak show and 14 for omni. sneak show player rips it, griselbrand topdecked, drew 7 cards, casted cantrips & sneak attack but no emrakul, attacks for 7 and passes. omni player drew his card, attacks, annihilate trigger, sneak player floated red and sneaked a griselbrand into play, blocks emrakul and drew another 7 cards, after combat, sneak player is left with only sneak attack as his permanent, omni passes. sneak show draws a card, played the last red source of his deck. and sneaked an emrakul)

death & taxes VS punishing jund (4th rd opp)
- punishing jund wins

alluren VS punishing jund
- alluren wins
..
top 4 was..
me VS sneak show
0-2 sneak show wins

punishing jund VS alluren
2-1 for punishing jund
(they played on the swiss also, but ended the match as a draw. on their MU's, alluren beats jund on all game 1's)
..
both finalist's agreed on splitting the prizes..

**
if given a chance to play the deck again, i would put 1 ethersworn canonist, 1 enlightened tutor, and a 2nd vendilion clique..
ethersworn canonist - for counter wars against combo decks. with an active canonist, he'll play a key combo piece (non-artifact), i will counter, then he can't counter back, therefore, another turn for me.. tempo.

This guy seldom misses top 8 on our Legacy tournaments. Grats on being very versatile with playing nearly any kind of deck and succeeding with it! And wow didn't expect that you post here lol

[Vedalken]

[QUOTE=Barbed Blightning;741585]My concern with beefing up the SFM/Geist count is that it creates a heavy curve for your threats; you'd probably want the 20th land. Geist has also been lackluster for me-- when he's free to swing I'm winning anyway and he can't do much of anything on the defensive.

I'm actually thinking about the following:

Creatures (12)
4 Delver
3 SFM
3 Lavamancer
2 Clique

Artifacts (2)
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte

Spells (27)
4 Lightning Bolt
3 StP
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Daze
3 FoW
2 Spell Pierce

Lands (19)
8 Fetches
4 Wasteland
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic
1 Basic Islan

your list looks solid. definately something I am looking foward too.

Alright so last monday I ran the deck and finished 8 in a 30 ish peoples tournament. Lost to yolo burn in the second round due to amazing hands on his parts and 1 mistake on my part. I then lost to rug in the 4th round going 2-1 due to him drawing silvain library into too many threats for me to handle in the 2 match I lost and also due to the fact that I couldn`t deal with the ******** mongoose just blocking the geist for ever without me having any anwser to kill the 3/3 in both game that I lost. I won the second game simply because I drew 3 waste land into delver stifle and like a daze to back everything up. Now following that note, geist really didn`t follow my expectation in my last 5 days of play testing.

From my experience, geist wasn`t as strong has I thought he would be. the fact that he is simply a 2/2 now makes me doubt about him having to stay in the deck. I mean he gets blocked by mongoose 3/3. can`t trade with any creature bug control has and has someone said previously, everytime I had the chance to swing with him, I would have won the game regardless of if I had him in play or not.

I can actually affirm that I would have prefered him being a cliq in most of the match up I had. especially since having cliq plus jitte in play is alot stronger then having geist with jitte.

Regardless of that point, I am seriously thinking of removing geist from my version. he his slow, not mana efficient. his defensive ability sucks and usually when he has a opportunity to do something at turn 4, he gets dealed by most creature of the meta game. His pros are that he his hexproof and yes that his amazing but the fact that he his a 2/2 just doesn`t make it for me.

Grim lavamancer his in my opinion the mvp of the deck right now. He shines in miror and most aggro control matchup like RuG or BUG control. Kills what you want it to kill and provides reach. His only draw back I find is that he`s rather slow because alone, he doesn`t really set a timer vs decks like combo. In most of the game thought, he suffer from the wrath of my adversary and I am not alwas able to protect it from spells like abrupt decays or just burn in general so I am seriously thinking on adding a third one to the deck simply because I want him in more match up then I dont want him.

Now abording Sfm. I find that she suffer from the same probleme has grim. people don`t want her in play so they find every way to kill her and sometime I dont necesarely have a way to protect her so it force me to get a jitte instead of a battlerskull. so she end up simply being a 1/2. In this regard, it is not really aggressive and when you play her on turn 2. it takes until turn 4 to actually have jitte equiped on her so she is basically a 1/2 that does nothing for 2 turn. that was kinda deceiving. From another point of view, if you can actually protect her, SFM into battler skull simply wins game.


Now regarding some match up analyse, I have played around 8 game vs BUG control and the match up is strongly in there favor. they have a better draw engine and often if they deal with the lavamancer you can`t really deal with there threat( the shaman really screw our daze stifle wasteland combo) has much as you would like too so you end up looking at them with a geist and you aren`t really able to do anything until either the ancestral vision comes into play or the jayce simply resolve and then you are in for a lot of trouble. so regarding this, I was just wondering what where your thought on the match up and the developement of the deck in general. I am personnaly in favor of dropping geist for cliq and adding more grim but that is just me.

I really like the deck in general. adding white for the sfm/battler combo, plow and the side board is really what motivated me to play the deck over something like Rug or or BUG control/team america but I feel like lots of thing needs to be adressed before this becomes a power house.

[Griselpuff]

Geist is really good against fair decks aka DRS decks, I think he's fine to run as a two of depending on your meta. I've cut another Ponder for Karakas, I hate mulling to oblivion to find lands. Ponder has no synergy with us (no Goyfs or drs) so I think it's a fine cut, the sorcery speed also hurts. Also wear/tear is great and our combo matchup post board is strong enough to cut something and add that. Also those arguments for EE just don't justify it for me. Just my two cents.

[RiverBoa]

[QUOTE=Barbed Blightning;741585]

Now regarding some match up analyse, I have played around 8 game vs BUG control and the match up is strongly in there favor. they have a better draw engine and often if they deal with the lavamancer you can`t really deal with there threat( the shaman really screw our daze stifle wasteland combo) has much as you would like too so you end up looking at them with a geist and you aren`t really able to do anything until either the ancestral vision comes into play or the jayce simply resolve and then you are in for a lot of trouble. so regarding this, I was just wondering what where your thought on the match up and the developement of the deck in general. .

I am also very interested in a possible solution to this. I just picked the deck up and while I do understand it's quite powerful at my local meta, we have a high amount of shardless players. are more pyroblast the answer?

I think I am also more allied to the Clique > Geist camp.

[yaWgnorW]

Geist is really good against fair decks aka drs, I think he's fine to run as a two of depending on ur meta. I've cut another ponder for karakas, I hate mulling to oblivion to find lands. Ponder has no synergy with us (no Goyfs or drs) so I think it's a fine cut, the sorcery speed also hurts. Also wear tear is great and our combo mu post board is strong enough to cut something and add that. Also those arguments for ee just dont iustify it for me. Just my two cents.

Geist is good against most decks that don't put tons of creatures down to stop him from doing his thing. This deck is really well balenced with many of the decks, combo or fair. With this deck I still support no less than 3 Geist, in any meta. I personally run 4. I also have to question dropping Ponder. I like running 3...the synergy is fine. Sorcery speed is bad, but people wouldn't be running it if it wasn't good.

I agree about Wear/Tear, its great. Should be a 2 of IMO, but definitely a meta call. I actually dropped Karakas from my 19 land. If I ever went back to 20 land, I'd add it again. The deck is just more consistent at 19 without Karakas. Its possible to run it like I said before, just really really greedy.





I am also very interested in a possible solution to this. I just picked the deck up and while I do understand it's quite powerful at my local meta, we have a high amount of shardless players. are more pyroblast the answer?

I think I am also more allied to the Clique > Geist camp.

Are you saying Shardless BUG is the problem or some sort of BUG Control? Shardless BUG usually doesn't run basics, this deck can and will abuse that. One of the better answers is simply taking away their graveyard as it disables Goyf and DRS. The problem with that is Abrupt Decay. Cards like Rest in Peace are 'bandaids' in this match up as someone once told me, but it could be just enough to pull it out.
For regular BUG decks, I honestly don't think the game plan changes much. This match up should be favored...at least post board.


Anyway, I'm kind of stuck between the SFM package list (the top list right now) and the list with the non SFM package. Honestly...its probably 55% in favor without. I liked the different amount of utility the list without the SFM package has. I really like the double Clique, at least 1 main 1 side, if not both main.
To me, this deck doesn't want to give the opponent free turns. SFM is great, no question, but it has a lot of steps. Meaning...if it 1. resolves, 2. sticks, 3. sticks again, 4. if the equip sticks, and 5. if you can equip it. The best part is the that both Delver and especially Geist are much stronger when equipped, so this makes me think otherwise.

[blindspotxxx]

Deck is great to play, used this last night over the usual Sneak and Show. Batterskull without SFM in hand is a little awkward and if the early mana denial doesn't work deck can't protect it's threats.

How do you guys sideboard for JUND?

[Griselpuff]

Tough matchup, take out your FOWs and hop on the mana denial train. RIP and Meddling Mage (naming Punishing Fire, then Abrupt Decay) are also good

[Caniki]

So for the SFM builds, is 4 Tundra 3 Volcanic Island the correct land distribution? I've been contemplating -1 Tundra +1 Plateau, but I haven't been able to test it.

[fired88]

My friend runs an aggro version of this and cuts the tempo out. I think this might be the better approach to the deck.

Change swords to paths. No more life gain and since not worrying about tempo, the extra land won't hurt as much.

Cut the wastes for more consistent manna to get 3cc geist.

Then lightning helix and snaps for additional reach and removal for geist.

Tempo shell just felt too clunky and contradicting what it wants to do. Any thoughts?

[Spaker]

My friend runs an aggro version of this and cuts the tempo out. I think this might be the better approach to the deck.

Change swords to paths. No more life gain and since not worrying about tempo, the extra land won't hurt as much.
Cut the wastes for more consistent manna to get 3cc geist.

Then lightning helix and snaps for additional reach and removal for geist.

Tempo shell just felt too clunky and contradicting what it wants to do. Any thoughts?

Hi,

Could you please post the aggro list that your friend played ? Thanks, I'm curious.

[Spaker]

Hi everyone, I'm new to this thread, i just finished the deck (before that, I mostly played Merfolk. Then i got sick for not having removal spells !). The deck feels great, can answer almost any threats.

I played at a local tournament this week-end between friends (nothing competitive). I tried the SFM build recently brought by Eric Smith at the Invitational (the only difference is that I played one Vendilion Clique over the 3rd Geist), and it worked out pretty well.

First, i playtested the original version with the 3 Geist, the Clique and some Snapcaster. But since my metagame is aggro-oriented (Elves, while being more of a combo-deck, still relies on creatures obvioulsy), i went for the SFM build. I fought against Elves, Pox, MUD, U/R Burn (packing the Young Pyromancer) and a B/G rogue. I finished 2nd with 3 victories (U/R Burn, MUD and Rogue) - 1 draw (Elves) - 1 defeat (POX), totalising 8-4.

Regarding the SFM, every time i drew it, it was either a kill, or a game savior. Batterskull was amazing (nothing new) since it gave me that mid-late game fuel that i was unable to reach with the original list. Having the batterskull as a blocker hallowed the delver and the clique to only focus on attacking (wich is kind of nice since... well... they can't block many things without die at the same time).
But, playing the SFM package over more Geist and Snap/Clique has decreased the tempo-perspective of the deck IMO. Unless i'm not playing this build right (which is possible), my matchs looked more like mid-range than tempo (unless I had the chance to put a delver on turn 1 while holding a daze and some nice other cards). I don't see it as a disavantage, but it clearly change the way to play the deck. I didn't wanted to try the turn 2 - SFM since I always wanted to keep one more mana to be able to answer during my opponent turn for casting a spellpierce, or dealing with the next drop.

As for the Geist, he didn't had the chance to shine this week-end ; too bad. While I agree with Vedalken when he is saying that the Geist is sometime almost useless when the opponent has too many blockers or that he is himself no blocker-material, I still wouldn't completely cut him. The simple fact that he has hexproof justify his presence. With all the removals like Bolt, STP/PTE and Abrupt Decay, the delver-clique threats aren't enough (at least in my metagame). Even with spell pierce-daze-FOW in the list, i was unable to protect them the entire game. If you look at the RUG deck ; they have the mangoose, and she can win some games by herself if the RUG player is able to deal with most of the drops (unless some Relic Of Progenitus or RIP hits the board...). I really think that the Geist needs to stay in this deck, whether it's SFM oriented or not.

[maiko1993]

hey guys, new on thread but i always come here to see lists and thoughts on American Delver.

now with that SFM build, seeing some reports saying that these decklists dont fit the Tempo playstyle, i think that is worth to remove the Stifle gameplay, keeping the Wastelands, to improve the CA with more cantrips or improve our combo match-up pre-board with more counters.

i thought something like this:

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Force of Will
3 Spell pierce
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

What you guys think about it?

[Spaker]

hey guys, new on thread but i always come here to see lists and thoughts on American Delver.

now with that SFM build, seeing some reports saying that these decklists dont fit the Tempo playstyle, i think that is worth to remove the Stifle gameplay, keeping the Wastelands, to improve the CA with more cantrips or improve our combo match-up pre-board with more counters.

i thought something like this:

4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Force of Will
3 Spell pierce
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

What you guys think about it?

Hi,

I like your idea, but I'm not sure about cutting the stifle plan, mostly because cutting 4 stifle would significantly decrease the power of the 4 daze/4 wasteland the list is packing. Being able to stifle a fetch and deprive your opponent of another mana is, by far, the best way to make your daze stay an efficient counterspell for the 4-5 turns. That said, with the presence of Deathrite Shaman, stifle is indeed less effective in a mana-denial plan. But since the deck contains 7 removal spells (8 for the one which runs 4 Swords To Plowshares), death rite shaman doens't automatically screw the mana-denial plan.

Even with the 4 stifle, I believe that the MU against combo remains good. Running 3 FOW, 2 Spellpierce and 4 daze seems still pretty decent (and I think that you can stifle the Storm trigger of Tendrils of Agony).

IMO, if you really want to get rid of the stifle, you maybe would want to rearrange the manabase, since stifle is also here to prevent Wasteland on our own dual-land that allow the deck to respond quickly, given the right lands, to any threats. In that perspective, running more basic lands could be a solution, as you suggested it with the island in your list.

While loosing some tempo with the SFM, the deck can still put early pressure on the opponent (thanks to Delver/daze/stifle/wasteland) and go for the tempo playstyle that it was first designed for.

What do you think ?

[Piceli89]

If any of you guys is interested, I wrote a personal analysis on this deck on an italian high-profile MTG website:
here. (http://www.mtgq.it/fact-or-fiction-12-uwr-delver-in-legacy/)
(Just use google translator or Babelfish, it should convey most of the meaning.)

Basically, as soon as I saw the deck in action and its most recent successes I predicted that UWr Delver's inherent flaw is that it aims to play in the same shell Threshold uses, with the little yet enormous difference that its beatstick costs 3 instead of 1 or 2, consequently shifting all Stifle and Wasteland timings as it often happens. I suggested to try to push the deck towards a more midrange-esque panorama because that's where Geist (and Mystic) can shine by either cutting down the Geists or removing entirely the Stifle package to push more Spell Snares/cantrips/creatures, and the latest tendencies seem to proof this feeling.

[Spaker]

Hi,

Indeed, it seems the deck is kind of the middle of two strategics gameplays :

On one hand, it follows the tracks of the best tempo deck out there for quite a while now (RUG Delver, obviously) but can't keep the same rythm because of the 3 mana needed for the geist (where the mangoose only need... 1 green mana.)
Still, the UWR Delver is totally capable of doing a great full-tempo job with a flipped delver on turn 2 and some wasteland/stifle/bolt/daze/brainstorm/fetch in hand. (That hand can happen... sometimes...).

On the other hand, his own tempo (the major threat costing 3 mana) can sometimes become more close to a mid-range zone.
The recent list of E. Smith (played by Fabiano at the last invitational) is packing Stoneforge Mystic for this kind of situation I think.
At this point, the deck isn't always able to reach the 3 or 4 mana fast enough to keep on early pressure and still aiming the tempo style.

This duality between being a heavier tempo-deck and a light mid-range deck builds his difficulty, but also his identity.

Like Piceli89 wrote in his article (thank you by the way, very interesting), I played several games where, at some point, you'll be facing the choice of tapping out for a geist, leaving you unable to respond during your opponent's turn (unless you've got daze or FOW), or wait one more turn and try to put another land to reach the 4 manas where you can in the same turn land a threat (Geist) and still keep single mana for a Bolt/STP/Stifle/Pierce etc. That choice can be pretty hard, and can compromise the tempo-clock you're trying to put.


As for a stronger mid-range build, I would like to mention this other deck. Before playing the Delver-build, i followed the list that A. Petersen played at the GP Strasbourg in April ;

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10647&iddeck=77698

I discovered it through an article of C. Durward on the Channel Fireball site ; he was analyzing the metagame and the performance of decks like Miracle or Maverick and mentionned this "new" deck named "Geistill". This version is not Delver-based, and removes the whole stifle/daze/wasteland package, anchoring the deck deeply into the mid-range area. Everything stand in the title ; the deck focuses almost exclusively on landing a Geist of Saint Traft, and uses the Standstill-Mishra's Factory as a draw engine. The deck deals with the drops of the opponent in the first 3-4 turns with the removal package and the spellpierce/FOW counters. If possible, it wants to land a standstill holding a mishra in hand, or already on the battlefield ; that way, if the other player doesn't have manland or too few wasteland, he will be forced to make you draw 3, which gives you enough fuel in order to control what your opponent is trying to establish. Then, when the board is empty, the Geist is on his way to victory (that is the ideal scenario, of course).

As opposed to UWR Delver, this Geistill is the perfect shell for the Geist and for the Snapcaster. Plenty of mana, a strong kill, helped by the standard-blue counterspell/cantrips, and the best removals-spells like Bolt and STP. The mid-range is where you want to go.
I'm not saying it's a viable option, but i really found it interesting as it uses the Geist at his best potential.

[beez]

I was thinking about going away from the midrange and keep it closer to it's speedy UR Delver roots while using white as more of a splash. One of the things that always frustrated me in the UR Delver is how the Goblin Guide got chumped so quickly and easily. The white splash gives more removal and allows Guide and Ghast to get in fast. The deck is made to be a fair deck that beats other fair decks with speed and cheap, recurring removal. The sideboard is transitional against unfair combo decks by boarding out Guide, Path and Price and boarding in the taxing counters. And I am letting Snapcaster shine a bit more with the Young Pyromancer as well.

URw Delver

4x Delver Of Secrets
4x Goblin Guide
4x Young Pyromancer
3x Grim Lavamancer
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Geist of St Traff

4x Lightning Bolt
2x Chain Lightning
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
3x Force of Will
4x Path to Exile
2x Price of Progress

4x Volcanic Island
2x Tundra
2x Island
2x Mountain
1x Plains
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Arid Mesa
2x Flooded Strand

1x Force of Will
4x Daze
3x Spell Pierce
3x Oblivion Ring
4x Surgical Extraction

[SirTylerGalt]

I was thinking about going away from the midrange and keep it closer to it's speedy UR Delver roots while using white as more of a splash. One of the things that always frustrated me in the UR Delver is how the Goblin Guide got chumped so quickly and easily. The white splash gives more removal and allows Guide and Ghast to get in fast. The deck is made to be a fair deck that beats other fair decks with speed and cheap, recurring removal. The sideboard is transitional against unfair combo decks by boarding out Guide, Path and Price and boarding in the taxing counters. And I am letting Snapcaster shine a bit more with the Young Pyromancer as well.

URw Delver

4x Delver Of Secrets
4x Goblin Guide
4x Young Pyromancer
3x Grim Lavamancer
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Geist of St Traff

4x Lightning Bolt
2x Chain Lightning
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
3x Force of Will
4x Path to Exile
2x Price of Progress

4x Volcanic Island
2x Tundra
2x Island
2x Mountain
1x Plains
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Arid Mesa
2x Flooded Strand

1x Force of Will
4x Daze
3x Spell Pierce
3x Oblivion Ring
4x Surgical Extraction

I like the Ensnare tech David Gearhart and his teammates used in an aggressive UWR Delver deck last year: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_uwr_delver_with_davi.html

You play it EOT (or during your opponent's upkeep if you fear he is going to attack you), it generates an Elemental Token thanks to Young Pyromancer, and you can then attack with all your tokens while all his blockers are tapped.

It also returns lands to your hand, which is good to trigger landfall for Steppe Lynx, if you play it :)


I also like Boros Charm in such a deck. It can save your creatures and tokens from board wipes, make a blocked Geist indestructible, or just deal 4 damage to your opponent to finish him...

[beez]

After a bit more testing I have determined that this version probably needs +1Geist -1Young Pyromancer, and possibly +1Snapcaster and -1Lavamancer. If anything providing two new Force Targets helps a bit too. I wish I could have two Swords to Plowshares in the board but feel I may need the O-Rings in certain matchups where counters alone may not be enough.

[beez]

Yeah I kinda remember seeing that Ensnare deck. Boros Charm is an interesting idea. I am a bit afraid of Chalice with this deck and no room for Shatter effects in board atm.

[Cynic13th]

I was thinking about going away from the midrange and keep it closer to it's speedy UR Delver roots while using white as more of a splash. One of the things that always frustrated me in the UR Delver is how the Goblin Guide got chumped so quickly and easily. The white splash gives more removal and allows Guide and Ghast to get in fast. The deck is made to be a fair deck that beats other fair decks with speed and cheap, recurring removal. The sideboard is transitional against unfair combo decks by boarding out Guide, Path and Price and boarding in the taxing counters. And I am letting Snapcaster shine a bit more with the Young Pyromancer as well.

URw Delver

4x Delver Of Secrets
4x Goblin Guide
4x Young Pyromancer
3x Grim Lavamancer
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Geist of St Traff

4x Lightning Bolt
2x Chain Lightning
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
3x Force of Will
4x Path to Exile
2x Price of Progress

4x Volcanic Island
2x Tundra
2x Island
2x Mountain
1x Plains
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Arid Mesa
2x Flooded Strand

1x Force of Will
4x Daze
3x Spell Pierce
3x Oblivion Ring
4x Surgical Extraction

With 20 creatures and 18 land in this version (compared to 13 creatures and 19 land in most other recent builds) are you having any problems sitting on an Delver that won't flip?

[beez]

With 20 creatures and 18 land in this version (compared to 13 creatures and 19 land in most other recent builds) are you having any problems sitting on an Delver that won't flip?

It's not too bad with 4 Brainstorm and 3 Ponder. Perhaps lose 2 Creatures for a couple more sideboarded counters or Swords. That would make 18 Land, 24 Spells and 18 Creatures. A slightly more spelly zoo ratio. Young Pyromancer likes spells too!

Boros Charm could earn a spot as well in a more aggro build as pointed out by someone earlier. Maybe it would be time to lose the Price of Progress, which can be a little ambitious to play in a three color deck. Or maybe Chain Lightning?

Still feel like I may need to find room in the board for a couple Shattering Blow against Jitte, Batterskull and Chalice.

[Cynic13th]

It's not too bad with 4 Brainstorm and 3 Ponder. Perhaps lose 2 Creatures for a couple more sideboarded counters or Swords. That would make 18 Land, 24 Spells and 18 Creatures. A slightly more spelly zoo ratio. Young Pyromancer likes spells too!

Boros Charm could earn a spot as well in a more aggro build as pointed out by someone earlier. Maybe it would be time to lose the Price of Progress, which can be a little ambitious to play in a three color deck. Or maybe Chain Lightning?

Still feel like I may need to find room in the board for a couple Shattering Blow against Jitte, Batterskull and Chalice.

I liked Boros Charm in Standard, I'm not sure how much I'd like it in Legacy. Chain Lightning is prob better, though 4 to the face with a Boros is pretty fun, I'm just not sure I like having to have red and white which are such secondary colors to cast it.

[beez]

Maybe like two of them. It is worth noting that the indestructibility option can be a counter vs the uncounterable Abrupt Decay.

[Grand Superior]

Hey guys,

So I started playing this deck a few weeks ago and started with a list similar to Gerrard Fabiano's/Erik Smith's. I've come to realize, though, that I strongly dislike Stoneforge Mystic and Swords to Plowshares in this deck because they don't fit the tempo deck strategy. From the SCG lists I've replaced the 3 Mystics and Batterskull and Jitte for a 3rd Grim Lavamancer, 4th Geist of Saint Traft, 1 Vendilion Clique, the 4th Ponder, and a Lightning Helix. I then replaced the 3 Swords to Plowshares for a mix of other ways to deal with STP's most common target: Tarmogoyf (1 Dismember, 2 Fire/Ice).

My list for reference:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Dismember
2 Fire/Ice
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Lightning Helix
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle

4 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

1 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
2 Meddling Mage
2 Pyroblast
3 Rest in Peace
2 Submerge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Wear/Tear

I was told that it was better to be somewhat cold to Tarmogoyf game one and then just board in three Rest in Peace and 2 Submerge against the Tropical Island decks rather than run the anti-synergistic Swords to Plowshares. What do you guys think?

[Spaker]

Hey guys,

So I started playing this deck a few weeks ago and started with a list similar to Gerrard Fabiano's/Erik Smith's. I've come to realize, though, that I strongly dislike Stoneforge Mystic and Swords to Plowshares in this deck because they don't fit the tempo deck strategy. From the SCG lists I've replaced the 3 Mystics and Batterskull and Jitte for a 3rd Grim Lavamancer, 4th Geist of Saint Traft, 1 Vendilion Clique, the 4th Ponder, and a Lightning Helix. I then replaced the 3 Swords to Plowshares for a mix of other ways to deal with STP's most common target: Tarmogoyf (1 Dismember, 2 Fire/Ice).

My list for reference:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Dismember
2 Fire/Ice
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Lightning Helix
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle

4 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

1 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
2 Meddling Mage
2 Pyroblast
3 Rest in Peace
2 Submerge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Wear/Tear

I was told that it was better to be somewhat cold to Tarmogoyf game one and then just board in three Rest in Peace and 2 Submerge against the Tropical Island decks rather than run the anti-synergistic Swords to Plowshares. What do you guys think?

Hey,

Regarding the SFM : cutting it will make your aggro MU a lot more difficult, but it can clearly add some speed in other match-up like combo. I think it's a matter of personnal preference at this point. I like the 3rd grim though, mvp in many match-up, even if he can run out of gas pretty fast.

But I really don't think that removing the STP is a good choice here. I might be wrong, but replace it with dismember/fire and ice won't help against tarmo. Even the bolt isn't enough most of the time. So you'll be forced to either block + bolt (and lose one of your own creature, loosing tempo) or play 2 bolt to take it down, wich will slow you even more than make the opponent gain 5 or 6 life at best with a STP. Okay : dismember could do the job, but it stays expansive. Even outside of the tarmo/knight of the reliquary situation, I fear that other spell like Dismember and Fire//Ice are too "heavy" to fit with the same tempo you would like to keep going. Let me explain : dismember is really great (I use it in Merfolk where you don't have other solution), but beside the :1: mana, 4 life can become quite expansive in some match-up. It can be the "perfect" removal in early-game, while you're still between 15 and 20 life, but when you're facing a beatdown in mid-late game and don't have many life left, a dismember will be the last thing you'll want to draw. Fire//Ice is a great spell that could do the trick against weak-creatures, but it's also more expansive in mana, which exposes you to your opponents daze/spell pierce, and doesn't solve the tarmo issue you'll probably face.

STP, despite the lifegain drawback, is the reason the deck is so powerfull IMO. Exiling is far better than sending to graveyard obviously, with all the DRS running around in legacy. By removing it, you take the risk of a tarmo or knight beatdown in the first game, forced to wait the 2nd game to bring your gy hate. (Plus : rest in piece can be dealt with ---> abrupt decay, qasali bandemage, krosan grip etc.)

Submerge appears as a good idea since it can send the threat in the library when combined with a fetch. But without that you're just delaying the drop (which, I agree, can sometimes be enough for you to kill the opponent).

For all thoses reasons, i personnaly prefer to give some lifepoints with STP that i'll have to take back with the delver or clique than take the chance of struggling with threats bigger than 3/3, but that is just my opinion. Did you already playtested your version without SFM and STP ? Nice results ?

[fired88]

Would it work better if geist was cut completely? And just go with 4 SFM, 4 Delvers and 2-3 GL? Then no more complaints about 3 drops. Then we could probably drop down to a 18 land manabase like RUG.

Where does geist shine that makes him worth the 3cc curve?

[Artlee]

Would it work better if geist was cut completely? And just go with 4 SFM, 4 Delvers and 2-3 GL? Then no more complaints about 3 drops. Then we could probably drop down to a 18 land manabase like RUG.

Where does geist shine that makes him worth the 3cc curve?

He shines best in decks that don't have a lot of blockers. He is also quite good in a deck that can remove most of your creatures, as he has hexproof. I agree, it can be a hurdle to reach the 3 mana while keeping the pressure on the opponent, but I also think one finds out with time when to go for Geiast and when to use wasteland.

How do people handle Deadguy Ale? I am quite new to this deck, but I feel like I need to play defensive because I need to burn Mother of Runes and Dark Confidant. I am not sure I am doing it Right as this deck sure feels best when you want to be the offensive player.

[Quasim0ff]

He shines best in decks that don't have a lot of blockers. He is also quite good in a deck that can remove most of your creatures, as he has hexproof. I agree, it can be a hurdle to reach the 3 mana while keeping the pressure on the opponent, but I also think one finds out with time when to go for Geiast and when to use wasteland.

How do people handle Deadguy Ale? I am quite new to this deck, but I feel like I need to play defensive because I need to burn Mother of Runes and Dark Confidant. I am not sure I am doing it Right as this deck sure feels best when you want to be the offensive player.

Kill moms, get batterskull basicly. :)

[Kyle]

So, I'm running a 3 SFM, 4 Delver, 2 Geist, 1 Clique build and I must be doing something wrong as I was head over heels in love with this deck for my first 5 matches with it (testing on Cockatrice) and am now seriously hating it, mostly because it seems like it really has a lot of trouble keeping up with threats and bombs, even though it has a million removal spells and another billion ways to counter said threats.

My number one concern (voiced also by Picelli89) is that it taps out a lot, preventing you from executing your disruption plan. I think I'm used to RUG and its nice one-drops and the ability keep a single mana source open, and this deck turns it on its head.

Any suggestions for lines of play in a T1, T2, T3 fashion? or hands to keep/ship back? Really having trouble with this one and I want the damn deck to work :mad:

[thoughtxriot]

Hey guys, this is Erik Smith, the guy that won the Invitational playing this deck in the Legacy portion to a 7-0-1 record. My friend told me about this thread so I figured I'd chime in and join the conversation. I wrote an article on Star City about the Invitational and my story, with some of it dedicated to my card choices and why I played this deck. You can read it here (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26730_This-Is-For-You-Goblin-SCGINVI-In-New-Jersey-1st.html).



My number one concern (voiced also by Picelli89) is that it taps out a lot, preventing you from executing your disruption plan. I think I'm used to RUG and it's nice one-drops and the ability keep a single mana source open, and this deck turns it on its head.
This was one of the concerns I've had with the deck. Lately, I've been testing a different version (which I will likely play this weekend at SCG Baltimore) that cuts the Geists in favor of Young Pyromancer. I'm undecided on which build I prefer. Haven't been able to get a grasp on what I like better despite playing it a bunch. Here's the current list I'm testing:

//Lands (19)
4 Wasteland
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand

//Creatures (10)
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Young Pyromancer

//Artifacts (2)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

//Spells (29)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Ponder
3 Force of Will
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Spell Snare

//Sideboard (15)
1 Rest in Peace
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Meddling Mage
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Pyroblast
2 Wear // Tear

-----

The Spell Snares are something I just added in and have only played one match with. I cut a Ponder and a Swords to try them out. Swords is mostly used to clear Tarmogoyf out of the way, so I figure going back down to 3 main for another card that can also handle Goyf is fine. I can't find room for the 4th Swords in the SB. Not sure if it's necessary. I like 2 Wear // Tear in this version because Jitte is a big problem for it as compared to the Geist version.

I gotta run now, but I'll answer any questions anyone has and would definitely appreciate input and suggestions.

[BlackPurple]

hey Erik, just a quick note to say congratulations for your first place win in Jersey. Keep on keepin' on! (really like the list you used)

How do you think SoFaF is working out for you? I know it's a great equipment but when I've played it I get the impression it's a little slow. Submerge is in all my sideboards, but I'm trying to figure out if it's worth replacing it with sword.

[lambert101]

I tested Erik's list at a weekly last night. Pyromacer was decent. I went 3-2 with the following match-ups:
bug delver 2-1 win
Burn 2-0 win
Miracles 1-2 lost (stumbled on mana)
vampires 2-0 win (kid had a random modern brew)
death blade 0-2 lost

young pyromancer did no impress me. I might try to start test the following

4 delver
3 stoneforge
3 grimlavamancer/snapcaster/2 cliques (with a 4th ponder)

4 Bolt
4 stp
4 Bstorm
4 Daze
3 ponder (4 if i go 3 clique)
3 spell pierce
3 force
4 stiffle

1 jitte
1 bskull

4 tarn
4 misty
3 volcanic
3 tropical
4 wasteland
1 island

then the board of
3 rip/surgical
2 wear//tear
1 sword of feast + famine
1 force
1 sulfur elemental
3 pyroblast
2 flusterstorm
1 canonist
1 geist if st traft

[Piceli89]

The problem with Young Pyromancer in this deck is that you have a good number of spells that may lack target.
What if you put down YP and have a hand full of Plows and Stifles in a scenario where there are no targets for it, and don't have a Brainstorm avaiable?
I think this may come up often. That's why I'd suggest not to port the same list as it was exactly before with Geist, but to do some tweaks. The first monster card that a tempo deck desperately screams for, especially with Young Pyromancer, is Gitaxian Probe.

[Kyle]

The first monster card that a tempo deck desperately screams for, especially with Young Pyromancer, is Gitaxian Probe.

In my playtesting with UWR Delver I've found that there is a a major amount of uncertainty in the first few turns, which make you (me) overuse counters and Stifles. I think T3 is the most difficult turn to play, personally.

I'm not exactly ready to hop on the Young Pyromancer train, as Geist is just so damn good (curve issues aside), but Gitaxian Probe might be a great way to play proactively and prevent overusing your counters, as well as help you determine what you should do your first 3-4 turns. RUG's been using it for a while, and this is a tempostifle deck with a similar feel, so I guess the questions are "what should I cut?" and "how many should I use, if any?"

[Griselpuff]

Hey all, tournament report from SCG Baltimore here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26615-Heartbreak-at-SCG-Baltimore-Top-32-Report-with-UWR-Delver

Probe isn't good in this deck because we don't run Goyf or DRS. We're helping those decks pump up. In fact, I went down to 2 Ponders for this reason (the original lists only had 2).

[Patrunkenphat7]

Hey all, tournament report from SCG Baltimore here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26615-Heartbreak-at-SCG-Baltimore-Top-32-Report-with-UWR-Delver

Probe isn't good in this deck because we don't run Goyf or DRS. We're helping those decks pump up. In fact, I went down to 2 Ponders for this reason (the original lists only had 2).

Except Probe is sick with Lavamancer and Young Pyromancer. It's awful to not max Ponders in a Delver tempo deck because you are trying to minimize Goyf and Deathrite food...

[Griselpuff]

I also don't believe Young Pyromancer is good in this deck. That card has a lot of power but hasn't found it's shell yet. Perhaps it's in UWR, but for now, UWR already has a solid creature base and I think we should not consider Young Pyromancer as part of the standard UWR Delver deck, of which I was referring to. In the normal UWR list, pumping your opponent's stuff is bad.

[teonsw]

Looking through the decklists that won the invitational and open, I haven't seen many lists running karakas. Why is this? Does anyone think its necessary for SnT and reanimator match ups?

[thoughtxriot]

hey Erik, just a quick note to say congratulations for your first place win in Jersey. Keep on keepin' on! (really like the list you used)
Thanks :)


How do you think SoFaF is working out for you? I know it's a great equipment but when I've played it I get the impression it's a little slow. Submerge is in all my sideboards, but I'm trying to figure out if it's worth replacing it with sword.
SoFaF has been great whenever I've brought it in. Against BUG, it forces them to use an Abrupt Decay on it, and since they don't run much removal and you run relatively few threats, this is big. It's also good against Jund, although they have burn so it's not quite as good there as it is in the BUG matchup. I like swapping it in for the Jitte in combo matchups, although I've been siding out the Stoneforge package against Storm as it is too slow there I think. Against Show and Tell, for example, it's not unlikely that they have a relatively slow draw and Sword can do a lot of work there. It's also excellent against the clunkier combo/ramp decks, like MUD, Tezzeret, and Cloudpost. I wouldn't cut it from the board.

I tested with Submerge as Gerard said he liked the one he played in his board at the Open in Somerset, but it was always pretty bad for me. I don't have experience playing with it though, so it's certainly possible that I was playing with it wrong.



Miracles 1-2 lost (stumbled on mana)
This is a concerning matchup. I'll get to this in a moment when I discuss how SCG Baltimore went for me.


Hey all, tournament report from SCG Baltimore here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?26615-Heartbreak-at-SCG-Baltimore-Top-32-Report-with-UWR-Delver
Good job, sucks about that last round though :(. My friend Rob (who originally suggested Stoneforge to me prior to the invi) ended up losing in the finals to the guy you would've kept out of top 8 (or, more specifically, Blood Moon).


Probe isn't good in this deck because we don't run Goyf or DRS. We're helping those decks pump up. In fact, I went down to 2 Ponders for this reason (the original lists only had 2).
I don't think this is too much of a concern, especially enough to cut a Ponder. I was trying 4 Ponder for a bit but felt it was too much, but I think 3 is the perfect number. I wouldn't play two. You have Swords to deal with Goyf pre-board and Relic/RiP post do a good job keeping it in check. DRS hits instants or sorceries so the fact that Probe is a sorcery isn't relevant to DRS unless you're replacing it with a non-spell (which I don't think is right).

So, SCG Baltimore... not good. I played the list I posted above, except that I added a 4th Pyromancer, cutting a Daze, just prior to the tournament. My friend Kevin Jones also played the same 75 and was concerned about having too few threats. Daze is awesome early on in the game, but it's the card I often found rotting in my hand too often, so despite its synergy with Pyromancer, I felt like that was the best card to cut for an additional creature. I don't regret that decision.

The Spell Snares were excellent and I definitely prefer them over Pierces. They're additional removal against a lot of the creatures that you spend your Bolts and Swords on (Bob, Stoneforge, Goyf). They hit a lot of key cards in other decks (Infernal Tutor and Burning Wish in Storm, Rest in Peace/Energy Field/Counterbalance in Miracles, etc.). Definitely overperformed my expectations.

I started off the tournament 2-0 against two essential byes, All Spells and Charbelcher. I then had an off-camera feature match against the UW Miracles player that went on to Top 8. This matchup felt MISERABLE. He completely locked me out in game with 1 both Counter/Top and RiP/Energy Field. Game 2 dragged on and on but I never felt like I had a chance.

Round 4 I get paired vs. Storm which is a very favorable matchup. In Game 1, he mulligans to 5, and I have a solid hand but not much disruption. Nevertheless, I get him down to 5 life, 4 cards in hand, and he passes the turn to my Insectile Aberration and Delver. If there's an instant or sorcery on top of my deck, game over. There's not, I knock him to 1 and pass back. He's able to Ritual into a Past in Flames and Preordain into the land he needed to finish going off and get exactly 9 storm for a lethal Tendrils.

Game 2, I keep a hand without disruption besides a Meddling Mage. This may have been a mulligan, but I had a Brainstorm and felt like a turn two Mage would buy me the time to find more disruption. Land, go, and he started off with a Gitaxian Probe. I brain-farted and Brainstormed in response for really no reason, and then amplified my mistake by failing to keep the Daze that it hit in my hand. He saw a hand with no instant-speed disruption, and then Petal'd into a Dark Ritual and turn 1'd me. Some rough beats and a misplay in a favorable matchup. Okay, dead for top 8 (or so I thought at the time - two X-2's did end up making it in), but still live for money.

Round 5, I get yet another UW Miracles player. This matchup is closer and in game 3 he's on 3 lands with no cards in hand, a Counterbalance and a Top in play, and tapped out. I have a Batterskull and a Mystic in play and attack him down to 7. I cast a Pyromancer to give me lethal the following turn, and he uses Counterbalance revealing... Terminus. Couldn't come back from there :(

Round 6, I face my third HORRENDOUS matchup of the tournament. This time, Meathooks. There's little this deck can do against uncounterable, flying, shrouded 4/4's. :(

2-4 now and completely dead, I rattle off wins against a weird 5 color Scroll Rack/Land Tax deck (I at least had good laughs here, as he cast multiple cards that just flabbergasted me that I needed to look up Oracle wording for, such as PREACHER and Chains of Mephistopheles), Elves (very favorable matchup - spot removal, counterspells, and Grim Lavamancer), and RUG Delver (he had some rough draws and I had a great one game 1 with a Delver, double Daze and Stifle).

I was on megatilt after starting 2-4 with 3 very unfavorable matchups, but in retrospect, I don't think I should be too worried. I liked the deck outside of those two matchups. I'm still undecided on Pyromancer though and am currently grinding some matches on MODO with a list that has the whole package of Delver, SFM, Pyromancer and Geist. When Pyromancer was in play during the SCG, which was rare (just as happenstance of not drawing it), it shined. Kevin, despite also finishing 5-4, was raving about how good Pyromancer was for him. I don't remember all of the decks he lost against but he also had one loss to Miracles, as well as Reanimator and Burn.

It was a disappointing weekend for me, though I was happy to see Rob make it to the finals. He plays that Jund deck extremely well. I'm not discouraged by the deck, though. I'm liking the combination of Pyromancer, Geist and SFM, after originally disliking it when I first tried it out, although I might end up reverting back to the non-Pyromancer version of the deck. We'll see how testing goes.

[thoughtxriot]

Looking through the decklists that won the invitational and open, I haven't seen many lists running karakas. Why is this? Does anyone think its necessary for SnT and reanimator match ups?
It's definitely not necessary for the Show and Tell matchup. You have more countermagic than they do, and keeping them off balance for enough time to kill them is not difficult.

The Reanimator matchup has been fine for me, although a Karakas could help there. My problem with it is that it doesn't tap for blue mana. When I played UWR Delver to top 4 in Worcester, I played a Plateau since I often found myself wanting to fetch for it in testing. However, in practice, it was terrible. Four times in the tournament, including in my top 4 match, I had a hand that would be an easy keep if it had blue mana (for example: Delver, Daze, Ponder, Brainstorm, Force, Stifle, land), yet because it was a Plateau, I had to ship it. It's one of the worst feelings and it's enough of a blowout that I wouldn't feel comfortable running a non-blue land.

[Kyle]

I'm saying Buh-bye to SFM for a while. Upon further review and reflection, I think it's been the wrench in the spokes for me and is incredibly anti-tempo.

Not to mention my meta has two Shardless BUG and a Jund player every time we play, so Thoughtseize, Hymn, and Liliana really make it superbad.

I'm going with a more aggro build. We'll see how it goes.

[Papu]

I'm saying Buh-bye to SFM for a while. Upon further review and reflection, I think it's been the wrench in the spokes for me and is incredibly anti-tempo.

Not to mention my meta has two Shardless BUG and a Jund player every time we play, so Thoughtseize, Hymn, and Liliana really make it superbad.

I'm going with a more aggro build. We'll see how it goes.

@Kyle, please talk more about your aggro build. My meta has BUG and Jund's...

[teonsw]

It's definitely not necessary for the Show and Tell matchup. You have more countermagic than they do, and keeping them off balance for enough time to kill them is not difficult.

The Reanimator matchup has been fine for me, although a Karakas could help there. My problem with it is that it doesn't tap for blue mana. When I played UWR Delver to top 4 in Worcester, I played a Plateau since I often found myself wanting to fetch for it in testing. However, in practice, it was terrible. Four times in the tournament, including in my top 4 match, I had a hand that would be an easy keep if it had blue mana (for example: Delver, Daze, Ponder, Brainstorm, Force, Stifle, land), yet because it was a Plateau, I had to ship it. It's one of the worst feelings and it's enough of a blowout that I wouldn't feel comfortable running a non-blue land.

I see what you mean with consistency, although it does allow you to swing and save your Geist from dying as well as get more value on clique. I am going to test both with and without karakas tonight to see how it feels.

[teonsw]

In addition, has anyone tested against or played against affinity. This seems like a horrid match up with our only ways out being jitte, engineered explosives and wear and tear out of the board.

[Griselpuff]

Yeah the match up is really bad, if you're talking about the Master/Etched Champion version with Chalice out of the board. Not much you can do, I would say not worry about it. Every deck has a nightmare match up and Affinity is not a bad one to have. If you really want, you can always play Energy Flux

[Artlee]

I'm playing with the list Erik won SCG with, and I tend to side out Spell Pierce unless im playing vs a combo deck. As I am not facing many combo decks in my meta, I am thinking about moving them to the SB. I was wondering why no one plays forked bolt? Is it to prevent Tarmogoyf from growing?

[Whippoorwill]

I played the deck this past Sunday based on Gerard's maindeck list from SCG Somerset with a few changes:


Lands (20)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
4 Wasteland

Creatures (13)
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Vendilion Clique

Spells (28)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Ponder

61 Cards total

My sideboard was about 2/3 the same as Gerard's but with a few changes for my meta.

2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Electrickery
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Wear//Tear
2 Meddling Mage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Rest In Peace
1 Surgical Extraction

Electrickery was a last minute random addition to fill in for Sword of Feast and Famine and the Force moved to the main. I figured it would/could be decent against Elves, Maverick and Affinity which are fairly regular to see for me.

I actually made the change from SFM to Pyromancer in the parking lot before the tournament. My reasoning was the same as Kyle's. SFM just seems too slow when the deck has the potential to be quite fast.

About 10mins before the tournament started, the store owner asked us if we wanted to make it a $10 buy-in instead of $5 and make 1st place a FtV: 20. Obviously we all said yes. We ended up with 12 players since I imagine we lost a few to the Mirkwood Cup which was taking place up north. 2 players from that made it since they left when they were out of contention for prizes.

Round 1 vs. John with Bant Boggle
He's a good player, but doesn't have many expensive cards so he makes do with what he has.

Game 1: I get an early clock on him then take out his lands.

Game 2: Same as the first but Electrickery was able to take out his Hexproof guy.

1-0; 2-0

Round 2 vs. Chris with Dark Maverick (Splash for Deathrite and Decay?)
He's one of the better Maverick players that comes to our store, so I know I'll have to work for it.

Game 1: I think I dropped a Delver turn 1 and he dropped a Hierarch. On my turn 2 I kill MoM and he tries to Wasteland me but I have Stifle for that. On turn 3 he drops Thalia and on my turn I drop Geist then Waste one of his 2 lands. On my next turn I get rid of Thalia then Waste another of his lands and at this point he's mana screwed too far to recover.

Game 2: He wrecks my mana this time.

Game 3: Same as Game 1 but with no Geist and more Elemental tokens. At one point he went to block Pyromancer with MoM then when he went to give it protection I killed it.

2-0; 4-1

Round 3 vs. Reese with Maverick
Another regular Maverick player at our store.

This went mostly the same as the previous round except in one game I got mana flooded/hosed all at the same time thanks to Mindcensor. I kept drawing Fetches and I think I blanked on 2 of them.

In Game 3 I was able to kill off his Goyf with Lavamancer since he has 1 card in his grave and I had 2 in mine which put it back to Squire status. Pyromancer helped me again in this round to speed up my clock.

3-0; 6-2

Round 4 vs. BJ with UG Infect
Of all the decks he's played, he's had the most success with this one. It has the potential to win quite fast. But I liked my odds due to the amount of Counters and Removal the deck runs. Plus I know his deck pretty well and know that he has limited counters and threats.

Before the round I asked him if he wanted to work out a split but we couldn't think of anything and he didn't seem too interested in the split anyways so off to the races we go.

Game 1: I drop a Delver (I think) and he Land Grants on his turn. A bunch of pump spells and 2 Dazes from what I remember (will check notes tomorrow and edit with actual cards). I end up with 2 Pyromancers in play and swing at him with them. He attempts to Berserk one of them so it'll die at the end of turn but I no sir that and net 2 tokens. He draws nothing on his turn and I topdeck Pyromancer #3. Still had all these Elementals.

Game 2: He Land Grants again but has a threat this time with pump spells in hand (not lethal though thankfully). I play a Pyromancer thinking I'll just chump block with tokens before I realize it was Blighted Agent. Derp. Speeds up my clock at least. On his next turn he hits me for 5 Infect since he didn't draw another pump spell (he still had an Invigorate in hand which would have raised it to 9). I attempt to kill his guy on my turn and he casts Misdirection but I counter that for another token. I don't think he drew another threat from there before I was able to kill him with Delver, Pyromancer and Elementals.

4-0; 8-2 overall.

I ended up with the FtV set all for the low, low price of $10.

As for changes I plan to try/do:
-Change one of the Tundras to the 4th Volcanic.
-Cutting Clique or at least moving it to the board. The one game I remember drawing it, it seemed like a win more card.
-Cutting 1 Daze, 1 Stifle and adding Probes or maybe Spell Snares. Likely Probe due to it being a free spell for Pyromancer.
-Potentially moving Lavamancer to the side.
-I'm giving thought to being able to run Blood Moon from the Board since it wrecks so many decks in the current meta. And with Pyromancer over Stoneforge I'm less dependent on white.

[thoughtxriot]

Lands (20)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
4 Wasteland

Creatures (13)
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Vendilion Clique

Spells (28)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Ponder

61 Cards total

My sideboard was about 2/3 the same as Gerard's but with a few changes for my meta.

2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Electrickery
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Wear//Tear
2 Meddling Mage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Rest In Peace
1 Surgical Extraction

..................

As for changes I plan to try/do:
-Change one of the Tundras to the 4th Volcanic.
-Cutting Clique or at least moving it to the board. The one game I remember drawing it, it seemed like a win more card.
-Cutting 1 Daze, 1 Stifle and adding Probes or maybe Spell Snares. Likely Probe due to it being a free spell for Pyromancer.
-Potentially moving Lavamancer to the side.
-I'm giving thought to being able to run Blood Moon from the Board since it wrecks so many decks in the current meta. And with Pyromancer over Stoneforge I'm less dependent on white.
I'm working on a list that's pretty similar:

Lands (19)
4 Wasteland
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand

Creatures (12)
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Snapcaster Mage

Spells (29)
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
1 Spell Snare
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Spell Pierce
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
1 Mutagenic Growth

Sideboard (15)
1 Rest in Peace
2 Gut Shot
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Submerge
2 Wear/Tear
2 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pyroblast

The Mutagenic Growth is sweet and has huge blowout potential since nobody expects it. I'm not sure about the split between Spell Snare, Spell Pierce and Gut Shot. I kind of want 2 Snares, a main deck Pierce, and a maindeck Gut Shot, as well as a 3rd Ponder and 3rd Probe... obviously can't have it all, and I've yet to figure out which combination I'm most comfortable with.

[beez]

Love the look of this deck. That is the direction I was thinking of as well, making white the splash rather than the red and keeping ol' Snappy in there.

What do you plan on doing against Blood Moon and Back to Basics decks that don't use fetches to Stifle? Just count on countering them?

[teonsw]

I am now seeing all of these lists featuring Young Pyromancer, what does he do that was lacking with the SFM package?

[Griselpuff]

Stoneforge Mystic gives you game against decks that tempo decks have no business beating (e.g. Shardless BUG). It's attrition power is amazing in a tempo deck and I would definitely not cut it unless you want to go in a completely different direction.

That being said, I find one major problem with the deck is its inability to present a clock if you don't have a Delver in play. Grim Lavamancer only has so many shots. I would maybe go back up to 3 Geists and add an Elspeth in the board to complement them (jumping Geists are pretty insane).

[thefreakaccident]

ThoughtXriot you can have it all, all of the things you wished you had and more, simply cut force of will. All i'm saying.

The card has been seen as a necessary evil for too long, I've cut it from my lists (everything blue), and never looked back (no, I didn't replace it with misdirection). Honestly, I've been really happy with cutting force of will, and I've been seeing a lot of other people going lower than the recommended 4, which ultimately isn't very sound, as it is a card you want for turn 0.

[Papu]

Guys i'm working on UWR but I'm in trouble.
some strategy against affinity / etched?

I'm thinking of putting 3x Snapcaster to bury artifacts, and broker etched...

any suggestions?

[thoughtxriot]

What do you plan on doing against Blood Moon and Back to Basics decks that don't use fetches to Stifle? Just count on countering them?
Basically. Pyromancer gives you a little room to maneuver under a Blood Moon. With SFM in the deck, it was also possible to fight through it just by hardcasting the artifacts in combination with Pyromancer. It's definitely weak to that type of hate.


Stoneforge Mystic gives you game against decks that tempo decks have no business beating (e.g. Shardless BUG). It's attrition power is amazing in a tempo deck and I would definitely not cut it unless you want to go in a completely different direction.
Pyromancer does something similar, and can get out of hand quicker.


ThoughtXriot you can have it all, all of the things you wished you had and more, simply cut force of will. All i'm saying.

The card has been seen as a necessary evil for too long, I've cut it from my lists (everything blue), and never looked back (no, I didn't replace it with misdirection). Honestly, I've been really happy with cutting force of will, and I've been seeing a lot of other people going lower than the recommended 4, which ultimately isn't very sound, as it is a card you want for turn 0.
Cutting Force leaves you very soft to combo, though, does it not? Trust me, I hate the card, and I side it out against basically everything besides combo, but given that I generally only play Legacy at SCG Opens, I can't get behind cutting Forces and sacrificing the combo matchup.


Guys i'm working on UWR but I'm in trouble.
some strategy against affinity / etched?

I'm thinking of putting 3x Snapcaster to bury artifacts, and broker etched...

any suggestions?
Affinity isn't very common so I haven't felt the need to metagame against it. Spell Snare helps vs. Cranial Plating, but yeah, Etched Champion is a problem. I'm not sure what additional Snapcasters do to solve that though?

[teonsw]

Guys i'm working on UWR but I'm in trouble.
some strategy against affinity / etched?

I'm thinking of putting 3x Snapcaster to bury artifacts, and broker etched...

any suggestions?

I ended up playing against affinity twice the other day, i had early removal and then SFM for jitte, every time i played them. The games werent even close.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I've been enjoying this list. I'll probably play it at an IQ next weekend. The SB Therapies are nuts against any combo deck and miracles. The only thing I'm conflicted on is dealing with Liliana of the Veil post-SB. Sometimes you have the tools with a fast Young Pyromancer, but since I am boarding out a lot of my countermagic against Liliana decks like BUG and Jund, she becomes the scariest card. I am considering 1 SB Celestial Purge, but I think that's pretty poor.

4 Delver of Secrets
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Geist of Saint Traft

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Swords to Plowshares

3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest

SB
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Flusterstorm
2 Meddling Mage
2 Rest in Peace
2 Wear/Tear
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Forked Bolt

[thefreakaccident]

I've been cutting Fow mainly because combo (aside from elves) has kind of fallen off the map in my metagame. It comes down to what is best for the mainboard against what you see in your metagame, and Force has been by far the weakest blue card in the deck. I don't even keep it in the board anymore. My reasoning is kind of biased, but I treat force of will as a leyline type effect. It is there to interact on turn 0, on the first turn of the game before you've had the opportunity to use lands. In this way though, it's a terrible leyline that negates one card, and causes card disadvantage, but just like a leyline, I don't want to mulligan into a free loss just to find one card for turn 0 interaction. If combo comes back (non-elf) in heavy numbers, the forces go back in a heartbeat, but otherwise, truly, the card is terribad.

Just to clarify, leaving out force of will doesn't make you soft to combo at all TBH, it just opens up their opportunity to win on your turn 0, but honestly, that rarely happens, and when it does, they can often play through just one force. Arguing for force of will is kind of silly when you are required to have 2 active fows on turn 0 in order to survive TES and the like, I would rather not bother and simply strengthen the deck overall beyond my turn 0. If they beat me before I lay a land, oh well, they got lucky. Legacy is based off of luck entirely nowadays anyways.

EDIT: Btw, I have another comment that isn't opinion, but rather fact. If you are playing blue with pyromancer without flusterstorm, you are doing something wrong.

[thoughtxriot]

I've been cutting Fow mainly because combo (aside from elves) has kind of fallen off the map in my metagame. It comes down to what is best for the mainboard against what you see in your metagame, and Force has been by far the weakest blue card in the deck. I don't even keep it in the board anymore. My reasoning is kind of biased, but I treat force of will as a leyline type effect. It is there to interact on turn 0, on the first turn of the game before you've had the opportunity to use lands. In this way though, it's a terrible leyline that negates one card, and causes card disadvantage, but just like a leyline, I don't want to mulligan into a free loss just to find one card for turn 0 interaction. If combo comes back (non-elf) in heavy numbers, the forces go back in a heartbeat, but otherwise, truly, the card is terribad.

Just to clarify, leaving out force of will doesn't make you soft to combo at all TBH, it just opens up their opportunity to win on your turn 0, but honestly, that rarely happens, and when it does, they can often play through just one force. Arguing for force of will is kind of silly when you are required to have 2 active fows on turn 0 in order to survive TES and the like, I would rather not bother and simply strengthen the deck overall beyond my turn 0. If they beat me before I lay a land, oh well, they got lucky. Legacy is based off of luck entirely nowadays anyways.
It's not just to protect against a turn 1 kill. It also allows you to lay down a threat on your turn while still having protection beyond Daze.


EDIT: Btw, I have another comment that isn't opinion, but rather fact. If you are playing blue with pyromancer without flusterstorm, you are doing something wrong.
I don't see the connection? Besides the fact that Flusterstorm is an instant....

[thefreakaccident]

I was under the impression that pyro worked with storm... Was I wrong? I usually don't play these stupid as fuck new critters. I guess I look at the game a bit different with a purely control background. I don't always try to force things past daze on turn one with fow (can backfire horrendously) as I usually am a bit more willing than most to let my life points dip for an advantage later.

[Patrunkenphat7]

I've been cutting Fow mainly because combo (aside from elves) has kind of fallen off the map in my metagame. It comes down to what is best for the mainboard against what you see in your metagame, and Force has been by far the weakest blue card in the deck. I don't even keep it in the board anymore. My reasoning is kind of biased, but I treat force of will as a leyline type effect. It is there to interact on turn 0, on the first turn of the game before you've had the opportunity to use lands. In this way though, it's a terrible leyline that negates one card, and causes card disadvantage, but just like a leyline, I don't want to mulligan into a free loss just to find one card for turn 0 interaction. If combo comes back (non-elf) in heavy numbers, the forces go back in a heartbeat, but otherwise, truly, the card is terribad.

Just to clarify, leaving out force of will doesn't make you soft to combo at all TBH, it just opens up their opportunity to win on your turn 0, but honestly, that rarely happens, and when it does, they can often play through just one force. Arguing for force of will is kind of silly when you are required to have 2 active fows on turn 0 in order to survive TES and the like, I would rather not bother and simply strengthen the deck overall beyond my turn 0. If they beat me before I lay a land, oh well, they got lucky. Legacy is based off of luck entirely nowadays anyways.

EDIT: Btw, I have another comment that isn't opinion, but rather fact. If you are playing blue with pyromancer without flusterstorm, you are doing something wrong.

*In response to your "fact" about Pyromancer and Flusterstorm, I hope you realize that Flusterstorm does not trigger Young Pyromancer multiple times…

Your analysis of Force of Will is pretty insane. It defines tempo in Legacy and is good in many situations beyond the combo matchup. I want Force of Will against 85% of the field when I am on the draw with this deck, and on the play it is still very good against any type of combo deck and Miracles.

[thoughtxriot]

I was under the impression that pyro worked with storm... Was I wrong?
Yes. Pyromancer only triggers when you CAST a spell, so when you cast Flusterstorm, you'll get a token, but the storm copies aren't cast, they are just put on the stack, so no tokens.

[Whippoorwill]

Played the deck again this week with some slight changes. Biggest thing worth noting is I finally got to play the Affinity matchup. I finally see how bad it truly is for this deck (it was my only loss of the night, 0-2 even), so I'll be devoting 2-3 slots just for that matchup since I feel everything else is still decent.

[Quasim0ff]

People that argue that force isn't needed in blue (tempo)-decks anymore are doing something wrong.

Force is a catchall answer, to the turn 1 blood moon to turn 1 Show and Tell to turn 5 Jace.

Force is your PROTECTION. It's there to PROTECT.

People that want to cut force from main deck clearly aren't used to playing in diverse metagames.

[teonsw]

There are two affinity players in my LGS, would it be worth tossing a pulverize into the sideboard?

[RiverBoa]

Erik,

hows testing been going? any updates? Im considering this deck for philly this weekend and I wanted to know if you made some groundbreaking discoveries.

few friends of mine have been testing around with something similiar, dropping a significant number of counters and just playing as an aggro deck:

4 delver
4 pyro
3 lavamancer
3 geist
14

4 bolt
4 plow
4 brainstorm
4 probe
4 ponder
4 daze
4 force
28

4 tarn
4 strand
1 delta
4 volcanic
3 tundra
2 underground sea

sb looks like this:
3 therapy
3 meddling mage
3 red blast
2 wear/tear
3 rip
1 electrickery

cabal therapy is extremely potent with young pyro vs combo and control alike, which we can agree that we are soft too. plus its amazing with probe, even considering a maindeck copy over plow #4. the main issue with this list is that similar tempo decks that just play bigger, harder to kill threats (like rug delver). this is why you use sfm, right? rip makes that matchup significantly better, and you can basically keep all their threats in check. trying to make room in the sb for sulfur elemental too.

i never liked running stifle/wasteland with geist, it just felt like the opposite of what we wanted to be doing.

is cabal therapy worth it over stifle/wasteland?

maybe there is a list that can incorporate sfm, young pyro, and geist together, but that seems extremely greedy

[thoughtxriot]

Erik,

hows testing been going? any updates? Im considering this deck for philly this weekend and I wanted to know if you made some groundbreaking discoveries.
Nothing new really. Still testing the same version of the deck I posted last, except with -1 Spell Pierce, +1 Ponder in the main, and -1 Gut Shot/+1 Electrickery in the board.


few friends of mine have been testing around with something similiar, dropping a significant number of counters and just playing as an aggro deck:

4 delver
4 pyro
3 lavamancer
3 geist
14

4 bolt
4 plow
4 brainstorm
4 probe
4 ponder
4 daze
4 force
28

4 tarn
4 strand
1 delta
4 volcanic
3 tundra
2 underground sea

sb looks like this:
3 therapy
3 meddling mage
3 red blast
2 wear/tear
3 rip
1 electrickery
How has this deck been performing?


cabal therapy is extremely potent with young pyro vs combo and control alike, which we can agree that we are soft too. plus its amazing with probe, even considering a maindeck copy over plow #4. the main issue with this list is that similar tempo decks that just play bigger, harder to kill threats (like rug delver). this is why you use sfm, right? rip makes that matchup significantly better, and you can basically keep all their threats in check. trying to make room in the sb for sulfur elemental too.
I don't think you need 3 Red Blasts. I'd also suggest using Pyroblast over Red Blast, since you can cast it for a 1/1 with Pyromancer.


i never liked running stifle/wasteland with geist, it just felt like the opposite of what we wanted to be doing.
I've never felt like that when playing it. Geist always just seemed like a late-game trump if the tempo plan fails.


is cabal therapy worth it over stifle/wasteland?
Therapy is definitely tempting.... but I really love the Stifle/Waste plan.


maybe there is a list that can incorporate sfm, young pyro, and geist together, but that seems extremely greedy
Definitely too greedy I think. It's any 2 of those 3, and I'm at a loss as to which combination is best.

[Griselpuff]

SFM goes well with both, Pyro and Geist don't really synergize.

[RiverBoa]

im back on the snapcaster plan, i really like it w/ this counter package and post board utility

4 delver
2 lavamancer
3 geist
3 snap

4 bolt
3 plow
4 stifle
3 daze
3 force
2 snare
2 pierce
4 brainstorm
3 ponder

4 strand
4 tarn
4 waste
4 volcanic
3 tundra
1 island

sb:
3 pyro
3 meddling
2 wear
2 surgical
2 rip
2 ee
1 electrickery

notes:

i want to find room in the board for sulfur elemental/electrickery #2, I may cut a pyroblast/meddling mage - not sure which. leaning towards pyro since we have a lot of 1 mana counters + snapcasters. i am leaning towards the sulfur elemental at this time bc i can swap a geist for it vs blood moon decks.

people suggest that I will just die to blood moon, but I don't think thats the case. While it certainly hurts us, we can develop threats under a moon and still cast a large amount of spells. We are certainly not impacted like rug delver which plays 0 basics. there are literally 6 spells we cant cast (geist + plow), and its likely that only 3-4 will be in the deck after board. im not even sure blood moon is a *must* counter. I just autofetch the island vs. jund/miracles/uw blade/monored and it seems to be fine.

I may trim a volcanic for a gitaxian probe.

I may trim a geist for a vendilion clique.

I am interested in thoughts/opinions at this time.

[thoughtxriot]

SFM goes well with both, Pyro and Geist don't really synergize.
I don't think that's true at all. Pyro into Geist can make for some explosive, quick starts. Pyro also gives you protection against Liliana's edict.

[RiverBoa]

this is the update from my testgroups young pyro delver:

4 delver
4 pyro
3 lavamancer
2 geist
13

4 bolt
4 stifle
3 plow
4 brainstorm
3 probe
3 ponder
4 daze
3 force
28

4 tarn
4 strand
4 volcanic
3 tundra
4 wasteland
19

sb:
3 meddling mage
3 pyroblast
3 submerge
2 rip
2 wear/tear
2 electrickery

we added the stifle/wasteland back in, and cut therapy from the sb. While it was powerful, it the lack of mana denial was not worth it. if you want to play therapy+pyro, the best bet is grixis delver. at least one person from our group will be playing the above list this weekend.

[Cynic13th]

im back on the snapcaster plan, i really like it w/ this counter package and post board utility

4 delver
2 lavamancer
3 geist
3 snap

4 bolt
3 plow
4 stifle
3 daze
3 force
2 snare
2 pierce
4 brainstorm
3 ponder

4 strand
4 tarn
4 waste
4 volcanic
3 tundra
1 island

sb:
3 pyro
3 meddling
2 wear
2 surgical
2 rip
2 ee
1 electrickery

notes:

i want to find room in the board for sulfur elemental/electrickery #2, I may cut a pyroblast/meddling mage - not sure which. leaning towards pyro since we have a lot of 1 mana counters + snapcasters. i am leaning towards the sulfur elemental at this time bc i can swap a geist for it vs blood moon decks.

people suggest that I will just die to blood moon, but I don't think thats the case. While it certainly hurts us, we can develop threats under a moon and still cast a large amount of spells. We are certainly not impacted like rug delver which plays 0 basics. there are literally 6 spells we cant cast (geist + plow), and its likely that only 3-4 will be in the deck after board. im not even sure blood moon is a *must* counter. I just autofetch the island vs. jund/miracles/uw blade/monored and it seems to be fine.

I may trim a volcanic for a gitaxian probe.

I may trim a geist for a vendilion clique.

I am interested in thoughts/opinions at this time.
Sideboards are so Meta dependent that I have a hard time making any suggestions. Having said that I'm going to do so anyways.
I do think you could easily drop a meddling mage and a pyroblast from the board and add a sulfur elemental or two. I have no idea how well Electrickery works having never tried it.
I dropped to 19 land a while ago with no ill effects, though I dropped my lone island otherwise my mana base is exactly the same as yours.

[Griselpuff]

Electrickery seems really sweet on paper but has been lacking in actual testing. Had it vs. D&T and had to shuffle it away when Serra Avengers came in instead of the usual suite. Setting up a blow out is a lot tougher than I thought. Also, the true MVP vs. D&T isn't Sulfur Elemental. It's Grim Lavamancer. Grim is just more consistent, getting to 3 mana can be hard (yes I know Sulfur has flash), but I've lost games where I've resolved Sulfur, but haven't lost any where I've been able to resolve and protect Lavamancer.

Also re:Electrickery, I wouldn't bring it in against RUG either. It's a situational blow out, and not a card that you should be playing. You're not really a dog to RUG, all you need to do is survive and grind them out, and Electrickery doesn't further that game plan. It's also a terrible topdeck, unlike Bolt and StP

Still thinking about whether or not it merits a slot. It is nice vs. Goblins though (the deck and Empty the Warrens)

[RiverBoa]

Electrickery seems really sweet on paper but has been lacking in actual testing. Had it vs. D&T and had to shuffle it away when Serra Avengers came in instead of the usual suite. Setting up a blow out is a lot tougher than I thought. Also, the true MVP vs. D&T isn't Sulfur Elemental. It's Grim Lavamancer. Grim is just more consistent, getting to 3 mana can be hard (yes I know Sulfur has flash), but I've lost games where I've resolved Sulfur, but haven't lost any where I've been able to resolve and protect Lavamancer.

Also re:Electrickery, I wouldn't bring it in against RUG either. It's a situational blow out, and not a card that you should be playing. You're not really a dog to RUG, all you need to do is survive and grind them out, and Electrickery doesn't further that game plan. It's also a terrible topdeck, unlike Bolt and StP

Still thinking about whether or not it merits a slot. It is nice vs. Goblins though (the deck and Empty the Warrens)


I was bringing it in for young pyros mostly. card is gaining popularity every week. every creature in the deck that just won is an x/1, except flipped delver.

I agree that lavamancer is a great card vs dnt, sulfur at least kills thalia, mom, whisps, mangara. plus it dodges port, and can double as an instant castable threat vs the blood moon decks. i think im going to settle with:

3 meddling mage
2 pyroblast
2 wear
2 ee
2 rip
2 surgical
1 electrickery
1 sulfur elemental

[fired88]

Is young pyromancer better then sfm for this deck?

[Artlee]

Is young pyromancer better then sfm for this deck?

Have you read the last 3 pages? They both have their merits, but to say which one is best is kind of early.

[teonsw]

Does anyone know why the UWR deck that came in 10th at scg Philly wasn't running stifles. http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=58922

[Whippoorwill]

Played the deck again yesterday for the weekly event. We ended up with 12 players.

1 Island
1 Plains
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Geist of Saint Traft

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Envelop
2 Wear // Tear
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Electrickery
2 Forked Bolt
2 Rest in Peace

This biggest wtf is going to be my manabase. To sum it up, I feel that getting my manabase wrecked is the easiest way to beat me. As such, I went up to 2 basics to basically guarantee I'll have at least 2 lands that are "safe." With Blood Moon gaining popularity I feel even more comfortable with this decision. Last week I even had 2x Blood Moon in my side because it doesn't hurt me as much as it will opponents and no one would expect it from me. For those curious, I haven't had any issues with the mana to date.

The Electrickeries and Forked Bolts were because I was expected Elves and Maverick. The Electrickeries would have been Energy Flux if more Affinity players had showed up again.

I don't have my notes, so apologies if I missed anything.

Round 1 vs Greg (Phazonmutant) with Grixis Delver
Can't really remember all the details, but I won in 2. I think one of the games revolved around mana denial and countering a Tombstalker to pull off the win.
1-0; 2-0

b[]Round 2 vs Matt with Punishing Miracles[/b]
Note: He didn't have duals, so he was using Shocklands in their place.

Game 1: He mulls at the start showing me his hand, so I knew what he was on from there. He ended up putting up a decent fight despite his start, but I still took it down.

Game 2: (I can't remember if this round went to 3 games, but I don't think it did). This one was real close. The last part of the game saw him at 10 life and he had cast Entreat for 3 Angels. I had a flipped Delver, a Pyromancer and an Elemental with 19 or so life. He started to chip away at my life with 1 Angel a turn and I just started building up cards. The breaking point came when I had 3 cards in hand and he attacked with 2-3 cards in his hand.

Bolt him. Resolves (7 life, +1 Elemental)
Bolt him. He thinks about it and lets it resolve (4 life, +1 elemental)
Tear on his Detention Sphere (killed my earlier elementals; +1 Elemental).

Those 2 bolts resolving ended up giving me exactly lethal with the number of elementals I had (He blocks Aberration and Pyromancer, takes 4 from tokens). He said afterwards that he was concerned about what the 3rd card in my hand could be and that's why he let the bolts resolve.
2-0; 4-0(?)

Round 3 vs BJ with Tin Fins/Reanimator
Game 1: He keeps a hand of 6 lands an Entomb (okaaaayyyyyy). I keep a hand that does something and win.
Game 2: This goes well until I run out of counters/removal and he eventually gets an Elesh Norn on the board. I had already used at least 2 StP at this point and my life was low so there was nothing else I could do.
Game 3: Pyromancer, Elementals and Geist take it down fast.
3-0; 6-1(?)

Round 4 vs Brett with OmniDerp
Game 1: I keep a good hand with Delver, Geist and some counters. I remember countering one of his attempts to go off then he tried to hardcast Dream Halls but I had the Daze to counter it. Thankfully he played an Island that turn instead of a 2nd Ancient Tomb, otherwise I would have been in trouble.

Notable play during this game was him casting a maindeck Trickbind when I tried to Wasteland him. Due to that play I knew he changed his win condition from Release the Ants to Lab Maniac.

-3 Swords to Plowshares, -2 Lavamancer, -1 Daze
+2 Pyroblast, +2 Flusterstorm, +2 Envelop

Game 2: I keep a risky hand with 1 land, Delver and some counters. I get lucky and draw a land on my first turn. I get a Delver out, but he counters my Pyromancer. I start putting a clock on him as he digs through his deck with cantrips. He Cunning Wishes on one turn then Intuitions for 3x Show and Tell on my next eot. He goes to cast it on his turn and I have Envelop ready (along with additional counters). At one point I held a Delver in hand in case I needed to pitch to Force since my hand was Envelop, Flusterstorm, Force, Delver. I eventually get Geist out to speed up my clock and by the time I'm out of counters and he's on his last turn he digs to find something but is unable to find business.

This was one of the times where having played the deck myself made it easy for me to know how to play against it. I made sure only to counter the important cards and not worry about fighting over my threats so they would resolve.
4-0; 8-1(maybe 8-2?)

After 3 weeks playing the deck, my combined match record is 11-1 only losing to Affinity. Decks I've played against.

Bant Bogle - Win
Dark Maverick (Deathrite and Abrupt Decay) - Win
Maverick - Win
UG Infect - Win

Standard Eldrazi Ramp (Standard legal deck when RoE was legal) - Win
RW Affinity - Loss
Solidarity - Win
BG (Evagreen?) - Win

Grixis Delver - Win
Punishing Miracles - Win
Tin Fins/Reanimator - Win
OmniDerp - Win

All are with Pyromancer instead of Stoneforge. I think both are good, but it all comes down to personal preference/playstyle.

I'm not sure what I think of Lavamancer, but that's because I don't seem to draw them often enough to use.

[RiverBoa]

I'll be playing in a local event tonight, going to be trying this list out:

3 sfm
3 young pyro
4 delver
2 geist

3 probe
3 ponder
4 brainstorm

4 bolt
3 plow

4 daze
3 force
3 pierce

1 bskull
1 jitte

4 waste
3 volcanic
4 tundra
4 strand
4 tarn

sb:
3 lavamancer
3 flusterstorm
2 meddling mage
2 rip
1 feast/famine
1 plow
1 force
1 wear
1 electrickery

i wish there was a spot for stifle, but i think probe is better now with young pyro. also, moving the lavamancers to the board.

[Arianrhod]

I'll be playing in a local event tonight, going to be trying this list out:

3 sfm
3 young pyro
4 delver
2 geist

3 probe
3 ponder
4 brainstorm

4 bolt
3 plow

4 daze
3 force
3 pierce

1 bskull
1 jitte

4 waste
3 volcanic
4 tundra
4 strand
4 tarn

sb:
3 lavamancer
3 flusterstorm
2 meddling mage
2 rip
1 feast/famine
1 plow
1 force
1 wear
1 electrickery

i wish there was a spot for stifle, but i think probe is better now with young pyro. also, moving the lavamancers to the board.

My opinion is tilted because of the deck that I play, but moving Lavamancer to the board seems intelligent -- it never really did anything either of the times I played against this deck at Philly. That said, I don't like cutting Stifle, really -- admittedly, Stifle is particularly effective against me, but even just in general Stifle seems to be potent for the archetype.

Good meeting you at Philly -- also, for future reference, don't bother boarding in graveyard hate against Scapewish. It's reasonable against some other varieties of Nic Fit, but both you and my round 1 opponent brought in graveyard hate against me, and I actually breathed a sigh of relief because it's an actual dead card as far as I'm concerned.

Best of luck at your local =)

[Kowitz]

I usually play TES, but I enjoy having different decks to play, and American Delver was my go to choice. I really like the deck in testing, this is the list I have been running. The 20 lands and of one of each basic is a Meta choice, and I really like it. I had previously tried the SFM package as well, but I am now trying out YP, and I really like him a lot too. I have been considering cutting either the Plains, or a Volcanic for a Karakas.



1 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Vendilion Clique

3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
1 Spell Snare


Sideboard:

1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Wear // Tear
2 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Force of Will
2 Meddling Mage


I Cut the 4th STP for the Spell Snare, just trying it out and in the sideboard the Sulfur Elemental might either become another Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm, not sure yet, trying him out.

[RiverBoa]

My opinion is tilted because of the deck that I play, but moving Lavamancer to the board seems intelligent -- it never really did anything either of the times I played against this deck at Philly. That said, I don't like cutting Stifle, really -- admittedly, Stifle is particularly effective against me, but even just in general Stifle seems to be potent for the archetype.

Good meeting you at Philly -- also, for future reference, don't bother boarding in graveyard hate against Scapewish. It's reasonable against some other varieties of Nic Fit, but both you and my round 1 opponent brought in graveyard hate against me, and I actually breathed a sigh of relief because it's an actual dead card as far as I'm concerned.

Best of luck at your local =)

Yea, I had you on the wrong deck after g1. I kept 1 RiP in just to slow you down, but I probobly shouldnt have even bothered.
It was nice to meet you as well.

Last night's event was nothing spectular, 16 people, 4 rounds.

I wound up 3-1, losing to storm.

r1 - esper blade
Beat up on esper deathblade, young pyro was incredible there. My firrst hand of the day was 2x probe, delver, young pyro, daze, volcanic, tundra. t1 probe revealed a slow-ish hand for him, basically going all in on the t2 stoneforge with jace and a lingering souls. my delver flips, I play young pyro t2, proboe again (draw a lightning bolt).

bolt his sfm, waste his land, he never came back.

g2 was basically the same thing, except I killed with geist and didnt see a young pyro. He showed me 2 liliana in his sb he didnt put in bc of the tokens, he also thought that I wasnt playing with geist since i was playing with young pyro.

r2 - storm
storm crushed me in 2 games. g1 was way closer, and if I had stifle instead of probes I probably would have won. I was on the aggro after a t1-2 delver, got him down to 7, and I had a bolt in hand. he tendrils for exact, using all of his mana and all of his spells. fun.

g2 was a loose keep on my part and I guess he had a decent draw. My hand lacked ANY form of distruption but I had young pyro + probe + other cantrips so I thought I could have a clock/setup some decent draws. I was wrong. He went off without fear of counters and called my bluff, or maybe he was considering this a 'free win' if it got there. either way - he crushed me.

r3 - rug delver
g1 was sort of back and forth, and young pyro bought me enough blocks while i was digging for a sfm to bury him. I topdeck a plow just in time to kill his goyf and i am able to flash in a bskull when i was at 6 life. he never came back.

g2 featured me being on the draw and not getting my mana setup. he t1 delver, which i bolt on my turn, he dazes, then plays another. these 2 delvers paired with stifle, wasteland, and another daze are enough to get there.

g3 I had a great draw. he kills my early delver and sfm, but i am able to establish a RiP and i kill his delver, eventually young pyro goes unchecked and about 5-6 elementals finish him off.

r4 - elves.
before we started this match, i was worried because I cut lavamancers from the main and young pyro doesnt really do much vs him.

g1 my suspicions are correct and I am able to kill the first 2 elves, then he just goes off. I dont have the fow for the natural order, and he gets a ton of mana with 2 arbor/cradle/100000 elves.

g2 i swap the pyros for lavamancers, leaving the probes in. I make a t1 fetch>delver, t2>probe, bolt, fetch, lavamancer. he cant beat this draw.

g3 was pretty much the same, except no delver, I wind up killing literally 6 elves with 2 active lavamancers. Once I hardcast fow on his glimpse (with 2 cards in his hand) while my board is geist + 2 lavamancers, he just scoops.

at this point it was almost 1am, so we decided to split the prize ($15 store credit), nothing crazy.

on the young pyromancer: I am still on the fence, but I think its most powerful vs the fair decks that try to go 1-1 on removal. It's nice to have all the creatures "must-kill" bc it mostly means you will be able to successfully resolve a sfm OR a young pyro.

He is absolutely beast with probe. but I still miss stifle. what once was a 'good' matchup (storm), was a nightmare for me on this particular day. I understand I had bad draws, but even still, it just didnt feel right.

I think lavamancers on the board is totally acceptable. I used to ride the lavamancers to victory in the grindier games, but now with sfm and yp, you dont need the lavamancers, he is just slower and more fragile.

Ill be testing more later this week, but I am going to try and get stifles back into the deck. I am going to try a list with 20 lands, (1 plains 1 island), dropping the ponders, going to 4 probe, and maybe adding blood moon to the board. just a thought.

4 delver
4 young pyro
3 sfm
2 geist
13

1 jitte
1 bskull
2

4 probe
4 bstorm
4 bolt
3 stifle
3 plow
3 force
4 daze
25

4 strand
2 tarn
2 mesa
1 plains
1 island
3 tundra
3 volcanic

sb:
3 meddling mage
3 flusterstorm
3 lavamancer
2 blood moon
2 RiP
1 trickery
1 feast/famine

this is basically my other list -3 pierce +3 stifle, -3 ponder +1 land +1 probe +1 pyro

[Artlee]

Yea, I had you on the wrong deck after g1. I kept 1 RiP in just to slow you down, but I probobly shouldnt have even bothered.
It was nice to meet you as well.

Last night's event was nothing spectular, 16 people, 4 rounds.

I wound up 3-1, losing to storm.

r1 - esper blade
Beat up on esper deathblade, young pyro was incredible there. My firrst hand of the day was 2x probe, delver, young pyro, daze, volcanic, tundra. t1 probe revealed a slow-ish hand for him, basically going all in on the t2 stoneforge with jace and a lingering souls. my delver flips, I play young pyro t2, proboe again (draw a lightning bolt).

bolt his sfm, waste his land, he never came back.

g2 was basically the same thing, except I killed with geist and didnt see a young pyro. He showed me 2 liliana in his sb he didnt put in bc of the tokens, he also thought that I wasnt playing with geist since i was playing with young pyro.

r2 - storm
storm crushed me in 2 games. g1 was way closer, and if I had stifle instead of probes I probably would have won. I was on the aggro after a t1-2 delver, got him down to 7, and I had a bolt in hand. he tendrils for exact, using all of his mana and all of his spells. fun.

g2 was a loose keep on my part and I guess he had a decent draw. My hand lacked ANY form of distruption but I had young pyro + probe + other cantrips so I thought I could have a clock/setup some decent draws. I was wrong. He went off without fear of counters and called my bluff, or maybe he was considering this a 'free win' if it got there. either way - he crushed me.

r3 - rug delver
g1 was sort of back and forth, and young pyro bought me enough blocks while i was digging for a sfm to bury him. I topdeck a plow just in time to kill his goyf and i am able to flash in a bskull when i was at 6 life. he never came back.

g2 featured me being on the draw and not getting my mana setup. he t1 delver, which i bolt on my turn, he dazes, then plays another. these 2 delvers paired with stifle, wasteland, and another daze are enough to get there.

g3 I had a great draw. he kills my early delver and sfm, but i am able to establish a RiP and i kill his delver, eventually young pyro goes unchecked and about 5-6 elementals finish him off.

r4 - elves.
before we started this match, i was worried because I cut lavamancers from the main and young pyro doesnt really do much vs him.

g1 my suspicions are correct and I am able to kill the first 2 elves, then he just goes off. I dont have the fow for the natural order, and he gets a ton of mana with 2 arbor/cradle/100000 elves.

g2 i swap the pyros for lavamancers, leaving the probes in. I make a t1 fetch>delver, t2>probe, bolt, fetch, lavamancer. he cant beat this draw.

g3 was pretty much the same, except no delver, I wind up killing literally 6 elves with 2 active lavamancers. Once I hardcast fow on his glimpse (with 2 cards in his hand) while my board is geist + 2 lavamancers, he just scoops.

at this point it was almost 1am, so we decided to split the prize ($15 store credit), nothing crazy.

on the young pyromancer: I am still on the fence, but I think its most powerful vs the fair decks that try to go 1-1 on removal. It's nice to have all the creatures "must-kill" bc it mostly means you will be able to successfully resolve a sfm OR a young pyro.

He is absolutely beast with probe. but I still miss stifle. what once was a 'good' matchup (storm), was a nightmare for me on this particular day. I understand I had bad draws, but even still, it just didnt feel right.

I think lavamancers on the board is totally acceptable. I used to ride the lavamancers to victory in the grindier games, but now with sfm and yp, you dont need the lavamancers, he is just slower and more fragile.

Ill be testing more later this week, but I am going to try and get stifles back into the deck. I am going to try a list with 20 lands, (1 plains 1 island), dropping the ponders, going to 4 probe, and maybe adding blood moon to the board. just a thought.

4 delver
4 young pyro
3 sfm
2 geist
13

1 jitte
1 bskull
2

4 probe
4 bstorm
4 bolt
3 stifle
3 plow
3 force
4 daze
25

4 strand
2 tarn
2 mesa
1 plains
1 island
3 tundra
3 volcanic

sb:
3 meddling mage
3 flusterstorm
3 lavamancer
2 blood moon
2 RiP
1 trickery
1 feast/famine

this is basically my other list -3 pierce +3 stifle, -3 ponder +1 land +1 probe +1 pyro

Thanks fir the report. I always thought Young Pyromancer would replace SFM, but I alos like your take on it.

I really look forward to see if Young Pyro is for this deck. It seems really good for Grixis Delver decks, but they also have Bob who can almost fuel the Pyromancer forever.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So...why did you replace Stifle with Probe? Because it's a "free" cantrip that nets you a creature? Sounds a weak reason compared to just how impressive Stifle can be. I don't know that a bit of information is as useful as stopping wastelands, fetchlands, storm combo as you mentioned, CiP Triggers, Karakas, etc. Yes, information is important. So is not losing. I mean, I would rather not lose than know what their hand is...

-ABC

[Artlee]

So...why did you replace Stifle with Probe? Because it's a "free" cantrip that nets you a creature? Sounds a weak reason compared to just how impressive Stifle can be. I don't know that a bit of information is as useful as stopping wastelands, fetchlands, storm combo as you mentioned, CiP Triggers, Karakas, etc. Yes, information is important. So is not losing. I mean, I would rather not lose than know what their hand is...

-ABC

Thats a pretty biased description. Probe gives you the info to know just what cards to keep from Brainstorm/Ponder because you know what your opponent has in his hand. You can play spells knowing whether or not they will be countered or creatures get removed. You can achieve information that means you will not lose.
I am too a fan of Stifle, but both cards have their merits.

[Quasim0ff]

I don't think pyromancer is as strong in this deck as it in grixis, not from my testing at least. Grixis def. seems the stronger pyromancer deck, imo.

[Whippoorwill]

Quick report from last night:

I decided to try out a list similar to RiverBoa in using Pyromancer and Stoneforge.

1 Island
1 Plains
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Geist of Saint Traft

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Envelope
2 Wear // Tear
2 Electrickery
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Rest in Peace

Round 1 vs Tin Fins

Game 1: I have removal, but he hits me with Emrakul wiping my board then kills me with Shallow Grave (for nothing) > Tendrils to finish me off a few turns later.
Game 2: I keep a hand with multiple lands, Spell Pierce, Brainstorm, Rest in Peace. I don't think he had any out for RiP since it was smooth sailing from there.
Game 3: I keep a risky hand with an aggressive start and it pays off as I start drawing answers before he can draw threats.

1-0; 2-1

Round 2 vs Affinity
This is the only deck I've lost to since I started playing this deck.

Game 1: He unloads his hand turn 1 but I have StP for his Pest. I have control of the board until I let a Plating resolve without thinking when I have a Force + Blue card in hand. Batterskull can't bring me back from the damage I'm taking.
Game 2: I draw non-stop gas while he gets mana screwed. Worth noting is I didn't flip a Delver when I could have due to the card being Wear//Tear and knowing he had a Jitte in hand. I went for SoFI with SFM over the other options so I could make sure to kill his creatures with with greater p/t or from the shock effect when hitting him.
Game 3: Similar to game 3, but more of a blow out as I could have had him at 0 permanents when I won if he didn't scoop. Electrickery is pretty good in this matchup.

2-0; 4-2

Round 3 vs Feline with Stax
We're the only undefeated players, so this is the last round. I'm not looking forward to this match up.

Game 1: I Force Chalice for 1, but Trinisphere resolves a turn or 2 later and it just goes downhill from there.
Game 2: Rest in Peace deals with potential Crucible BS (happened in game 1) and Pyromancer deals with Smokestack. Wear//Tear takes down a Mox Diamond and Ghostly Prison at one point.
Game 3: She keeps a risky hand and I let a Chalice for 1 resolve since I have a Pyromancer in hand. I Force the Trinisphere and build up my board while she fails to draw mana sources.

3-0; 6-3

Still not sure how I feel about SFM vs Pyromancer, but I didn't hate it so I'll likely keep the split.

[Artlee]

Quick report from last night:

I decided to try out a list similar to RiverBoa in using Pyromancer and Stoneforge.

1 Island
1 Plains
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Geist of Saint Traft

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Envelope
2 Wear // Tear
2 Electrickery
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Rest in Peace

Round 1 vs Tin Fins

Game 1: I have removal, but he hits me with Emrakul wiping my board then kills me with Shallow Grave (for nothing) > Tendrils to finish me off a few turns later.
Game 2: I keep a hand with multiple lands, Spell Pierce, Brainstorm, Rest in Peace. I don't think he had any out for RiP since it was smooth sailing from there.
Game 3: I keep a risky hand with an aggressive start and it pays off as I start drawing answers before he can draw threats.

1-0; 2-1

Round 2 vs Affinity
This is the only deck I've lost to since I started playing this deck.

Game 1: He unloads his hand turn 1 but I have StP for his Pest. I have control of the board until I let a Plating resolve without thinking when I have a Force + Blue card in hand. Batterskull can't bring me back from the damage I'm taking.
Game 2: I draw non-stop gas while he gets mana screwed. Worth noting is I didn't flip a Delver when I could have due to the card being Wear//Tear and knowing he had a Jitte in hand. I went for SoFI with SFM over the other options so I could make sure to kill his creatures with with greater p/t or from the shock effect when hitting him.
Game 3: Similar to game 3, but more of a blow out as I could have had him at 0 permanents when I won if he didn't scoop. Electrickery is pretty good in this matchup.

2-0; 4-2

Round 3 vs Feline with Stax
We're the only undefeated players, so this is the last round. I'm not looking forward to this match up.

Game 1: I Force Chalice for 1, but Trinisphere resolves a turn or 2 later and it just goes downhill from there.
Game 2: Rest in Peace deals with potential Crucible BS (happened in game 1) and Pyromancer deals with Smokestack. Wear//Tear takes down a Mox Diamond and Ghostly Prison at one point.
Game 3: She keeps a risky hand and I let a Chalice for 1 resolve since I have a Pyromancer in hand. I Force the Trinisphere and build up my board while she fails to draw mana sources.

3-0; 6-3

Still not sure how I feel about SFM vs Pyromancer, but I didn't hate it so I'll likely keep the split.

Thanks for the report, Whippoorwill. I see you have 2 stifle in your mainboard. How does that work for you, and have you considered getting rid of them entirely and adding the 4. Daze? I have often heard that Stifle is a card you either have 0 or 4 of in the deck, and would like to hear your experience with having 2.

[RiverBoa]

Thanks for the report, Whippoorwill. I see you have 2 stifle in your mainboard. How does that work for you, and have you considered getting rid of them entirely and adding the 4. Daze? I have often heard that Stifle is a card you either have 0 or 4 of in the deck, and would like to hear your experience with having 2.

I've tweaked my list again, adding stifles back into the list. I don't think I'll ever play without it. Had success in testing last week, and went 3-0-1 in my local. Here's what I ran:

4 delver
3 sfm
2 geist
1 snap

4 brainstorm
3 ponder
2 probe
4 bolt
4 daze
3 plow
3 stifle
3 pierce
3 force

1 batterskull
1 jitte

4 strand
2 mesa
2 tarn
4 wasteland
4 tundra
3 volcanic

3 lavamancer
3 flusterstorm
3 rest in peace
2 meddling mage
1 feast/famine
1 wear/tear
1 plow
1 electrickery


I didnt like - young pyro in this list, just doesnt impact the game long enough to make it worth it imo. I think the home for young pyro lies in the grixis list which has better ways to abuse it's ability (therapy is great, bob gives you constant fuel)

I did like - having the lavamancers on the board, this keeps plenty of room in the main deck for spells. I might wind up adding them back if it feels too threat-light.

1 of snapcaster - I will probably keep this number for some time to come, its basically the best top deck you can get but having him early isnt that powerful.

3 stifle/3 pierce vs 4 stifle/2 pierce - I think it could go either way, or even 3 stifle / 2 pierce / 1 snare. I chose 3/3 just for consistency - plus there is a fair amount of black decks in my area.

I was trying to work on a similar list with blood moon, but I just can't find myself to tweak the mana to incorporate it, but these are the differences: MB: -1 tundra, -1 pierce, +1 island, +1 plains // SB: -1 rip, -1 plow, +2 blood moon ) I think it runs fine at 19 lands and thats where my dilemma is: is it worth it. Another option is to cut a wasteland and tundra for the basics.

4 delver
3 sfm
2 geist
1 snap

4 brainstorm
3 ponder
2 probe
4 bolt
4 daze
3 plow
3 stifle
3 pierce
3 force

1 batterskull
1 jitte

4 strand
2 mesa
2 tarn
3 wasteland
3 tundra
3 volcanic
1 island
1 plains

3 lavamancer
3 flusterstorm
2 rest in peace
2 meddling mage
2 blood moon
1 feast/famine
1 wear/tear
1 electrickery

that's really it for now, I'll post back in a few days.

[Whippoorwill]

Thanks for the report, Whippoorwill. I see you have 2 stifle in your mainboard. How does that work for you, and have you considered getting rid of them entirely and adding the 4. Daze? I have often heard that Stifle is a card you either have 0 or 4 of in the deck, and would like to hear your experience with having 2.

It hasn't been super effective for me in the weeks I've been using it which is why I went down to 2 (from 3 last week and 4 originally). With Stoneforge in the deck I like it even less so I'll likely cut them completely if I keep SFM. It could just be due to the deck I've played, but I think I've mainly used it to Stifle Wasteland and Fetchlands which is nice, but only the Wasteland counter really mattered to me. Spell Snare would be an option for that slot.

Daze is another that really depends on if I keep SFM or not. I cut one this past week because I side it out a lot (always on the draw) and even when I keep it in it hasn't been very effective. I do like it early, but obviously it gets worse the longer the game goes. I'll probably keep it at 3 for the time being as I'd rather have 4 FoW over the 4th Daze.


I didnt like - young pyro in this list, just doesnt impact the game long enough to make it worth it imo. I think the home for young pyro lies in the grixis list which has better ways to abuse it's ability (therapy is great, bob gives you constant fuel)

I was trying to work on a similar list with blood moon, but I just can't find myself to tweak the mana to incorporate it, but these are the differences: MB: -1 tundra, -1 pierce, +1 island, +1 plains // SB: -1 rip, -1 plow, +2 blood moon ) I think it runs fine at 19 lands and thats where my dilemma is: is it worth it. Another option is to cut a wasteland and tundra for the basics.

that's really it for now, I'll post back in a few days.

I agree that Grixis gets more out of Pyromancer, but it's also been working well enough for me to keep them in.

I would keep the Wasteland count at 4. If you really want to fit it in, it may be worth trying out -1 Fetchland for the basic. I'm running 20 lands (61 cards main) and it's been working out well for me. With Imperial Painter becoming more popular, I think it's definitely worth fitting the 2 basics in.

How has Probe been for you? Without Pyromancer I can't really see any reason to keep it over other options (more counters/removal).

Edit:

I plan on trying a list that uses Spellheart Chimera over SFM since it seems to go well with this deck. It'll likely be 2-3 copies.

[RiverBoa]

How has Probe been for you? Without Pyromancer I can't really see any reason to keep it over other options (more counters/removal).

I really like the probes, they let me develop a game plan and make more informed decisions.

here's an easy example which comes up pretty often:

youre on the play, opener is land, stifle, delver, probe, x, x, x. you probe and learn which is your cut t1 play (delver vs. stifle). it also helps you play into/around known counters/removal with your threats.

or

you have a bolt/plow in hand, probe them to learn that they have multiple threats. this allows you to "reserve" your removal for a must kill, even though you might normally kill a deathrite or something just to prevent snowballing.

while i find it not essential to play, i personally am liking it's inclusion. It is also likely on the block to be cut in further iterations.

as for the land issue. i dont think i'll go to 61, and i dont know if i can cut a fetch. ill probably test a couple matchups tonight but my gut is telling me wasteland is still likely the cut. my main reason is that blood moon essentially does the same thing. and in g1, 6 denial spells (+1 snapcaster) is close enough to give you the tempo you need. I can think of a couple of times I tapped a wasteland for mana. in the matchups where they control basics, wasteland isnt that useful anyway and I would probably prefer it producing a color. in short, needs testing.

I do appreciate youre insight

[Cynic13th]

Thanks for the report, Whippoorwill. I see you have 2 stifle in your mainboard. How does that work for you, and have you considered getting rid of them entirely and adding the 4. Daze? I have often heard that Stifle is a card you either have 0 or 4 of in the deck, and would like to hear your experience with having 2.

I thought this too, that you would want all the stifle possible. I did notice that in the Atlanta Open this weekend that almost every tempo deck wasn't running a full playset.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&start_date=2013-09-15&end_date=2013-09-15&event_ID=20&city=Atlanta&state=GA&t_num=1&limit=8&start_num=8&start_num=0&limit=8

I played with 3 and wasn't that fond of it, but I have still yet to feel like I'm an expert on this deck. I was curious what you all might think of the reduction of stifle we're seeing.

Cheers

[BlackPurple]

Hi everyone,

I'm playing the Eric Smith list's SCGJersey but with a different sideboard ( I'm still working on it, combo is really rare in my meta)

2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Delver of Secrets

2 Spell Pierce
3 Force of Will
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
3 Ponder

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Volcanic Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland



Shardless BUG is giving me a lot of trouble. I know what to sideboard in but no idea about sideboard out. I want to keep everything ( removals, Spell Pierce for Planeswalkers or Vision,.....) but in the same time I want to find space for RIP, Submerge, Pyroblast....

Any idea guys, how do you sideboard against this match-up?

[Cynic13th]

Hi everyone,

I'm playing the Eric Smith list's SCGJersey but with a different sideboard ( I'm still working on it, combo is really rare in my meta)

2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Delver of Secrets

2 Spell Pierce
3 Force of Will
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
3 Ponder

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Volcanic Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland



Shardless BUG is giving me a lot of trouble. I know what to sideboard in but no idea about sideboard out. I want to keep everything ( removals, Spell Pierce for Planeswalkers or Vision,.....) but in the same time I want to find space for RIP, Submerge, Pyroblast....

Any idea guys, how do you sideboard against this match-up?

Vs. Shardless BUG: +2 Red Elemental Blast, +2 Relic of Progenitus, +1 Swords to Plowshares, +1 Sword of Feast and Famine, +1 Engineered Explosives on draw, -3 Force of Will, -3 Daze (-4 Daze on draw)

[BlackPurple]

Vs. Shardless BUG: +2 Red Elemental Blast, +2 Relic of Progenitus, +1 Swords to Plowshares, +1 Sword of Feast and Famine, +1 Engineered Explosives on draw, -3 Force of Will, -3 Daze (-4 Daze on draw)

Thanks for the fast reply.
With the GY hate, do you keep Grim Lavamancer?

[Cynic13th]

Thanks for the fast reply.
With the GY hate, do you keep Grim Lavamancer?
Relic can be precise too, so yes. Keep them in, they're great for killing everything but goyf and the relic can just zap a baleful strix to sometimes make them boltable.

[Griselpuff]

Regarding Stifle, I've played with 0 copies, 3 copies and 4 copies and I think I'm settling on 4. It's good in 4 match-ups where I've been having trouble:

RUG Delver (Wasteland protection)
Shardless BUG (Ancestral Visions)
TES (Storm)
Death and Taxes (Wasteland protection, Mother of Runes)

UWR Delver beats most of the random decks out there, and has even-ish matchups against top tier decks. So, I think the optimal build of UWR Delver takes this into account and should be built to maximize its win percentage against these four decks. These four decks are a great representation of the diverse angles of attack within Legacy anyways.

Manabase: 19 lands, same as Erik Smith ran. In this deck, Wasteland often functions as a way to get to Batterskull, and although it has only one more land than RUG, we're much more happy not Wasting since we actually have a late game. I tried Karakas, and it was rarely helpful and often annoying when I couldn't tap for U or R. As far as Blood Moon, you would need to play a basic Island and a basic Plains to get around it effectively and it's just not worth it. Just hope to have the counterspell or the wear/tear.

Creatures:
4 Delver
4 SFM (This guy is good against everything)
2-3 Geist (good vs. slower decks)
1-2 Grim (good vs. creature decks that aren't RUG)

Instants and Sorceries:
4 Stifle
3-4 Force of Will (bad against Shardless BUG and RUG, but I want to have a good game 1 vs. combo)
3-4 Ponder (too powerful, I would play 4)
4 Brainstorm
0-2 Spell Pierce (insurance against combo)
2-3 Swords to Plowshares (kill DRS and goyf)
4 Bolt (Best removal spell for everything that's not goyf, not dead vs. Combo)
0-3 Gitaxian Probe (I really like this in RUG as it pumps goose/goyfs etc. etc. Here it only pumps their goyfs and our grims)
2-4 Daze (I've noticed games often go longer than usual with my SFM build, and Daze really sucks there so I'm down to 2)

Equipment
Batterskull
Sword of Feast and Famine (I personally like this in the MD as it's so strong vs. combo and the BG/x decks)
Umezawa's Jitte (I currently play all three equips MD, it makes the 4 SFM always have a target. So far, the "clunkiness" of having too many equipment doesn't come up very often. There's always Brainstorm)

SB
Meddling Mage (combo and control)
Rest in Peace
Swords to Plowshares
Grim Lavamancer (Shardless, D&T)
Wear/Tear (equipment, back to basics/blood moon, mox diamond, chalice of the void)
Pyroblast/REB (Shardless, combo)
Flusterstorm (combo)

I don't like Submerge or EE. RIP is just better vs. RUG and the BG/x decks, as well as hating out a lot of combo.

Hopefully, this is a bit of a map to building your own version of the deck. I still really like it, it has no unwinnable matchups and a lot of good matchups as well.

[Shawon]

I only ask if people try cards when "Search Thread" yields 0 results for said card, therefore I'm the first to ask this... what are people's thoughts on Basilisk Collar? It was once used in Trinket Mage packages in decks that included Grim Lavamancer, obviously to make Grim Lavamancer even better as a killing machine. Here in UWR Delver, you also run Grim Lavamancer, but you run an even better tutor in Stoneforge Mystic. Too cute? Win-more?

Also, 0 results in "Search Thread" for Ranger of Eos. Too slow, I'm assuming?