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KobeBryan
02-15-2013, 12:57 AM
PRIMER: BANT Midrange

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m61/Cashew333/Planechase/stf54_bant.jpg
I. INTRODUCTION

BANT refers to the colors: :w:, :g:, :u:. With printing of the Alara block these three colors have been supported through cards such as noble heirarch and knight of the reliquary. Bant is an Aggro-Control deck based upon these colors. (:g:) gives you the most powerful and efficient creatures. With the printing of green sun’s zenith, green has now provided BANT consistency with creatures. (:u:) provides you with consistency and powerful answers to troublesome combo decks. It also gives you the power of another win condition, Jace, the Mindsculptor. (:w:) gives you the necessary removal and splash to allow the deck to play the most powerful creatures. Playing BANT allows you to have a fighting chance against any deck on the field. It gives you protection with (:u:), creature removal with (:w:), and (:g:) lets you control the board with the best of them. The greatest thing about BANT is sideboard. You can play the most powerful cards in each color in the sideboard to give you the most decent chance to win the tournament in your meta.

Reasons to Play BANT
PROS

You have a chance against every deck in the meta.
The sideboard provides you with the best cards in any meta.
Exalted
Counters and Brainstorm


CONS

It’s a very expensive deck. You need a $50-100 dollar card for every 3 cards you need. Jaces, dual lands, Karakas.
Price of Progress, Blood Moon, and Back to Basics are not your friend.
You never have a superior matchup in any match that you play. You will have a very, very good chance in every matchup. Every matchup will now be a toss-up, which makes it a very long and tiring day.
You have a very lousy matchup against Maverick, Goblins, and Elves. I would say Elves is nearly unwinnable.
You cannot play all the cards that are good. Meaning, if you want to play Stoneforge Mystic Style with blades, you cannot play green sun zenith style. You can only choose 2 of the following. 1. Force of Will, 2. Stoneforge Mystic Package, 3. Green Sun’s Zenith Package, or 4. Natural Order Package.


II. DECK CONSTRUCTION

"THE CORE"
This is by General Consensus, the very core of every BANT deck. Probably the set of cards I have seen as the "Core" in every competitive build of this deck that I have ever seen.

[deck=Bant Core]
Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knights of the Reliquary
3 Vendillion Clique


Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force Of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Pierce

Planeswalker
3 Jace, The Mind sculptor
[/decks]

Card Choices
Noble Hierarch – Your mana accelerator and color fixing. You need these. The exalted are bonuses.

Tarmogoyf - Because this is a midrange deck, this card isn’t all that useful anymore

scavenging ooze – Your best friend against graveyard hate. You want to see this guy.

Rhox War Monk – This card isn’t that useful anymore. The most a 1 of if you use the green sun’s zenith package.

knight of the Reliquary – The best 3 drop creature out there. This guy grows with the fetchlands you play. It grows with the wastelands you play. It helps with fixing mana. You can basically tap a forest for mana, cut the forest, and fetch another land for an additional mana, all in one turn. It also helps you find karakas to answer the troublesome legendary creatures.

Stoneforge Mystic – The best 2 drop white creature. Allows you to play the aggro style with Batterskull, Blades, and Jitte.
Qasali Pridemage – Your answer to artifacts and enchantments. It’s a great aggro creature on its own. With a turn 1 noble heirarch, and turn 2 qasali pridemage, you have 2 exalted triggers when you attack.

Swords to Plowshares - Best 1-drop Removal in Legacy

Brainstorm Staple Legacy Cantrip

Force of Will Staple Counterspell, still one of the best cards ever.

Daze – I’m not sure about this card. Its great when you need it turn 1 to protect your noble Hierarch, but other than that, it loses value very quickly.

Jace, The Mind Sculptor – The best four drop in the game. You want this guy to control the board. This guy gives you answers against control. It also provides consistency with draws.

Umezawa’s Jitte –Depending on your meta, this card is very useful against Elves and other Aggro decks. It will singlehandedly win you the aggro matchup.

Green Sun’s Zenith If you are playing this card, it provides you with the best consistency for this deck to find answers. It allows you to play 1 ofs. You can play a 1 of sylvan safekeeper, a 1 of Rhox War Monk, a 1 of Qasali Pridemage , and a 1 of scavenging ooze .

III. DECKLISTS
I will not be posting my own decklist to avoid biasness with my card choices.

Here is David Rocher’s Decklist that some have copied card for card with successful results. This is the Stoneforge Mystic Version.


Creatures [15]
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Stoneforge Mystic

Instants [15]
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares

Enchantments [1]
1 Sylvan Library

Planeswalkers [3]
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Artifacts [3]
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands [23]
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Island
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath

Sideboard
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Life from the Loam
2 Path to Exile
2 Submerge
2 Flusterstorm
3 Meddling Mage
2 Tormod's Crypt


The Bryan Hawley Decklist that topped 15 out of 700 at GP Denver.


Creatures [18]
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch

Instants [11]
1 Spell Pierce
2 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries [4]
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Planeswalkers [3]
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Artifacts [2]
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Lands [22]
1 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Karakas
1 Tundra
3 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath

Sideboard
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Force of Will
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Krosan Grip
3 Path to Exile
2 Pithing Needle
2 Spell Pierce
1 Umezawa's Jitte


IV. SIDEBOARD
Like the land, Choosing the proper Side Board for your Meta and/or weak match ups is as important as the deck construction itself. Here I will Cover Most but not all card selections as good side board choices. This will cover both the Aggro, and the control Variants.

Card Choices
Sword of Body and Mind
Don't use this card. When was milling a person ever a viable strategy. And what does a 2/2 body do for you anyways? There are much better swords out there that provide better effects and protection.

Natural Order
This card lets you cheat in progenitus against fair decks. You have to dedicate quite a few slots for this to work though. You need at least 3 Natural Orders, 1 Progenitus, 1 dryad arbor. With Green Sun Zenith build, it helps you search for more green creatures to sacrifice for Natural Order.

Dueling Grounds
Being that your creatures are Exalted, and theirs not in most cases, this will give the edge to both attacking and defending, allowing one to outrace very potent decks such as Zoo, Gobs, 'folk.

Path to Exile
for the aggro heavy Meta. Having 6-7 StP effects will mean the differences between defeat and failure in most mtach-ups

Krosan Grip
Split second removal needed to face off against CouterTop, or other heavy counter/control decks. Good for Batterskull too.

Propaganda / Ghostly Prison
Some more options against the Aggro-Heavy Meta, some people prefer this to Dueling Grounds

Silence / Orim's Chant
The popularity of these on the side boards for Bant have waned since the banning of Mystical Tutor. It is still a viable option to stop combo however.

Meddling Mage
Good as a SB option from the board of the aggro OR control variants

Gaddock Teeg / Ethersworn Canonist
Teeg has been great against Storm combo and sneak attack. Ethersworn also provides good protection against ANT and Omniscience decks.

Llawan, Cephalid Empress
Great against Merfolk, may have too much of a narrow scope for your local meta however.

Tormod's Crypt / Relic of Progenitus
Your standard Legacy Graveyard Hate. If played at the proper times, can shut down really explosive decks. These cards give you earlier protection against Graveyard decks going off before your preferred choice scavenging ooze hits play.

Pithing Needle
Colorless/cheap answers to the like of Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Goblin Charbelcher, etc.

Engineered Explosives
Cheap/colorless removal not requiring a color splash

Hydroblast / Blue Elemental Blast
Some very good Anti-Red cards as well as additional counters

Spell Pierce
Has become in it's own right, an additional cheap counterspell, or anti-Force of Will addition to many Legacy Decks

Qasali Pridemage / Trygon Predator / Harmonic Sliver
Your answer to Enchantments/Artifacts.

Wheel of Sun and Moon
Great against painter decks, but isn't good enough to run 4 of. Tutor package almost needed.

Rafiq of the Many
Legendary, therefore not a good option to run... almost a win-more card. Can be NO'ed.

Submerge
good against Zoo and Maverick

Runed Halo
Good against Combo mainly but has other uses. Same problem as Wheel. :symw::symw: cc may be too harsh

Elspeth, Knight Errant
possible alternate win con in the Bant control version. Good card against Miracles and black decks that want to beat with with attrition.

Mother of Runes
great card to use with war monks and goyfs. possible alternate to Cliques/Finks.

V. MATCHUPS

KEYS TO VICTORY

RUG
The key here is to resolve your Knights of the Reliquary. *They do not have the answers to take down the knight game 1. *Part of RUG's gameplan is to deny you mana, so having lands in the graveyard won't be a problem. *Watch out for Forked Bolt to take out your mana dorks. *Your mana dorks are essential to you winning this game.

Game 2, I typically take out Jace and Counters. *Spell Pierce is not bad in this matchup because RUG usually doesn't have any lands in play. *FOW goes, Jace goes. *I have been playing Divert in the sideboard, which has been a house against RUG. *Its similar to Pierce, but those Bolts, Chains, Forked Bolts become much more painful against them than just countering it. *Watch out for Submerge, it is guaranteed they will bring this in against you to bounce your Knight. *

BUG
Learn to play around daze. *They will try to daze all of your early spells so watch out for that. *Abrupt decays typically target your knight while they bash you in with their Tarmogoyf. *The good thing is you have more creatures than they do and you have Scavenging Ooze to eat their lands, their spells, and to shrink their goyfs. *Watch out for Hymn to Tourachs. *It may break you if you don't hide your key pieces. *The bad players will use their decays on your mana dorks, but the better players will save it for your knights. *The reason I say this is because your nobles will not be strong enough to beat through their defenses anyways. *

Game 2, Bring in your Path to Exiles, your diverts. *BUG runs absolutely no basic lands. *They will not be searching for anything if you path them. *Again, spell pierce is good in this matchup and so are diverts. *They do not have the lands to pay for these spells. *Bad players will bring in sinkholes against you, but you have so many mana dorks, it doesn't matter if they bring it in. *Of course, you can still lose to sinkholes as with any deck. *Watch out for dark blast. *they will try to remove all your little creatures with it. *Jace again wins games. *If you have elspeth and Thrun, please do bring these in.

Sneak and Show
One of the harder matchups. *Turn 1 Ancient Tomb and Turn 2 island could mean disaster. *They have counters to back up these two lines of plays. * You do have counters and vendillion cliques so not all is lost. *You also have knights of the reliquary to fetch your karakas.*

Game 2, Bring in counters, bring in your oblivion rings and detention sphere. *Bring in flusterstorm. *They will bring in REBs and Pyroblasts. *Hope they don't go off. *Its still not an easy matchup. *Thats why this deck has been in the decks to beat for so long.

- Counter Argument
SNEAK ATTACK/Show and tell decks in my experience are one of the best matches this deck have. We have Knights and counterspells and the same time. If you add some Surgicals game 2 and 3 the match become really hard for them.


Miracles
Game 1. *Your deck is faster than theirs. *Keep dropping creatures, put them on a clock. *Eventually, they will try to plow your little creatures one by one. *Don't counter it. *Let them do it. *Save your counters for the more important things like the miracles cards. *Even Terminus you do not have to counter. *Its more important to counter their win condition, Jace and Entreat the Angels. *Just put pressure on them and the game should be ok.

Game 2. *Same gameplan, but this time you have teeg. *Don't worry if teeg dies, just have them waste more spells on your creatures while you save the counters for their most important spells. *This matchup shouldn't really pose a problem since you have so many cards maindeck that fights them. *3 Cliques, 3 jaces. *Try to drop your jace sooner than they do so they won't be able to activate it. *Also, Karakas vendilion clique combo is your best friend here. *Make sure they review the miracles card, then you clique in to remove the one with the trigger.

Dredge

Game 1, As always, they can go off. *Try to protect yourself with Force of Will turn 1. *Watch out for Dread return and cabal therapy naming your key cards. *Brainstorm the hate away. *Drop Ooze as soon as possible.

Game 2. *I don't run that many graveyard hate cards. *I only use 1 crop rotation and 1 bojuka bog. *I do have 4 main deck graveyard hate, 2 scavenging ooze and 2 deathrite shamans. *Getting Ooze in play is your most important goal. *I also run detention sphere so I can get rid of zombies. *


Jund


Jund is very similar to BUG. *Follow that game plan and you should be able to win. Save your counters for liliana of the veil. *Divert is also key when they try to get your cards with thoughtseizes and hymns and bolts.


Esperblade

Someone Please give me some feedback on this. *I don't have experience playing them all too much.


Maverick
If you are not running the Natural Order package from the side, give up.

Elves

Save your Swords for back breaking boosters like Priest of Titania, or maybe even Heritage Druid if it is their only way of tapping Nettle Sentinels for mana. Submerge and Engineered Explosives from the SB could give you a fighting chance to slow them down beyond recovery. Get out a Jitte as quickly as possible.

Goblins

Removal should target Turn 1 Lackey, Piledriver, and Warchief, in that order. Counterspells are essentially worthless in this matchup, as Cavern of Souls makes it so you can only counter Aether Vial. Counter Aether Vial. Side out as many counters as you can, bringing in Engineered Explosives, Path to Exile, and Krosan Grip. Get out a Jitte as quickly as possible.


KEY

Favorable - 75%+ chances of winning against
Slightly Favorable - 56%-74% Chance of winning
Even Match - 45% - 55% Chance of winning
Slightly Unfavorable - *26%-44% Chance of Winning
Unfavorable - 25% and below chance of winning



CREDITS

Aaronc123 - From MTGSALVATION
jbrodster - From MTGSALVATION
honin - From MTGSALVATION

OLD THREAD
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=268378


UPDATE
March 22, 2013

KobeBryan
02-15-2013, 12:58 AM
Reserved.

I didn't update the Matchup Analysis yet. I'm tired...sue me.

Someone teach me how to do the card tags, deck tags. Its different than on MTGsalvation. Thanks.

feline
02-15-2013, 01:32 AM
instead of [card] it's [cards], that trick got me too in the past.

Also you probably have looked over everything for Bant, but if it helps, I have these noted in my notes in addition to the Grand Prix placing, all are of RTRavnica Legacy.

Bant:
~4th place Steven Schlepphorst StarCityGames Legacy Open, St Louis Missouri USA (162 players) November-4th-2012: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1066436
~7th place John Sittner StarCityGames Legacy Open, Las Vegas Nevada USA (169 players) December-9th-2012: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9747&iddeck=71177

KobeBryan
02-15-2013, 01:57 AM
instead of [card] it's [cards], that trick got me too in the past.

Also you probably have looked over everything for Bant, but if it helps, I have these noted in my notes in addition to the Grand Prix placing, all are of RTRavnica Legacy.

Bant:
~4th place Steven Schlepphorst StarCityGames Legacy Open, St Louis Missouri USA (162 players) November-4th-2012: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1066436
~7th place John Sittner StarCityGames Legacy Open, Las Vegas Nevada USA (169 players) December-9th-2012: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9747&iddeck=71177


Yup I saw those.

John Sittner and Steven's deck are the GSZ versions.

Derayler
02-15-2013, 03:57 AM
Knight seems like it has been getting significantly weaker with all the decays and shamans floating around. Have you considered playing geist? Turn two geist into turn 3 Jace bounce can be enough to in a game on it's own.

kingsey
02-15-2013, 07:00 PM
First a big thank you for updating the primer...great Job:smile:

I agree with Geist. He has been pretty sweet. Here is my list i've been running. I took what Rocher made and tweaked it to what I liked. With updates like Geist, and switching FoW to Mother of runes. She is crazy good.

4 Windswept heath
4 Misty rainforest
3 Wasteland
2 Savanah
2 Tundra
2 Tropical island
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Karakas

4 Noble hierarch
4 Mother of runes
3 Stoneforge mystic
3 Qasali pridemage
3 Knight of the reliquary
3 Vendilion clique
2 Geist of saint traft
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to plowshares
3 Spell pierce

2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

useL
02-24-2013, 02:33 PM
Kingsey, no Scavenging Ooze? I would play two to battle deathrite and get life against tribal. Still no chance to beat elfball and goblins though =(

HSCK
03-21-2013, 11:51 PM
Great primer. Has anyone considered having a Shardless+Vision SB package to keep pace with all of the grindy decks in the format?

damionblackgear
03-22-2013, 12:38 AM
Sword of Body and Mind
with the growing popularity of Madness Survival, as well as extra pro-blue/green needs grow, this is great for SB, it is even a personal preference of mine to run this over the light and shadow sword MD in Pro Excalibur, dropping the other sword to the board. Can be used against Merfolk with great success as well.

I couldn't help but chuckle at this. When did survival go legal again?

useL
03-22-2013, 05:15 AM
I couldn't help but chuckle at this. When did survival go legal again?

This primer is what we get when noone else picks up the ball.

damionblackgear
03-22-2013, 12:55 PM
This primer is what we get when noone else picks up the ball.

Theory and intent are fine. The info just needs to be updated. That's all.

KobeBryan
03-22-2013, 01:39 PM
This primer is what we get when noone else picks up the ball.

How about you do it?

useL
03-22-2013, 05:23 PM
How about you do it?

Sorry, I spent my time today at work writing about treasure hunting for Magiccards. Besides, I lack both the compassion for the deck and the language skills to compile one. Should just keep my mouth shut now when Feline does them since noone else wants to. Just that .. well .. its lacking.

HSCK
03-23-2013, 07:48 PM
Well, besides the Primer, does anyone else have thoughts on it? I'm running Thruns and Ancestral Vision for in the side and has helped a lot for grindy matches. I am a little light on countermagic, just 4 Force and 4 Spell Pierce. I would like fit some Meddling Mages, has anyone tested them before?

DragoFireheart
04-02-2013, 02:52 PM
How good is Geist with exalted and equipment? Seems like he would ensure easy wins when you just need to crush your opponents life total.

Kich867
04-02-2013, 02:56 PM
How good is Geist with exalted and equipment? Seems like he would ensure easy wins when you just need to crush your opponents life total.

The problem with exalted, to me, is that it pretty much forces over-extension. You want a bunch of exalted triggers for Geist, so any sort of sweeper often blows you out. Even Pyroclasm would pretty much wipe your entire board presence. I suppose sweepers aren't played a -ton- right now, but it still hurts pretty badly.

Arsenal
04-02-2013, 03:01 PM
Geist allows you not to over-extend. A single creature on the board for you (Geist) can sometimes get you there. I ran ProBant, switched it to Bant Aggro (and back again) and Geist was always a nice way of saying "okay, deal with my Hexproof dude that swings for 6", without having to over-extend.

KobeBryan
04-02-2013, 03:06 PM
I can never find the spot for geist.

It takes the spot of vendillion clique and I do not want to go without clique.

DragoFireheart
04-02-2013, 03:07 PM
I have another question:

I am interested in this deck but the idea of shelling out money for Wastelands doesn't appeal to me. Can this deck still work without Wastelands?

KobeBryan
04-02-2013, 03:09 PM
I have another question:

I am interested in this deck but the idea of shelling out money for Wastelands doesn't appeal to me. Can this deck still work without Wastelands?

Yes u can go without wasteland because this deck isn't a mana denial deck. The wastelands are to get rid of the problematic lands, maze of ith,which i can only think of at this point.

Also, i would not invest into this deck. This deck is a 50% deck across the board but with terrifying matchups against elves, maverick, and nic fit. in essence, you will be grinding for 10 straight matches if you join SCG.

Arsenal
04-02-2013, 03:10 PM
In my experience, I've always had Wasteland, and that is almost always my #1 target to fetch with KotR. So in theory, it'll make KotR less good (it'll be mostly a beatstick, less of a Wasteland engine), but I can't imagine it being that much worse. If anything, you may find that you're able to run a more stable manabase (sometime I got killed by opponent's 2x opener Wasteland when I didn't have Hierarch to save me).

DragoFireheart
04-02-2013, 03:12 PM
Also, i would not invest into this deck. This deck is a 50% deck across the board but with terrifying matchups against elves, maverick, and nic fit. in essence, you will be grinding for 10 straight matches if you join SCG.

I already own most of the cards so it wouldn't be much of an investment anyways.

Anyways, I do have Dustbowl, so I have a janky alternative.

Arsenal
04-03-2013, 05:25 PM
I already own most of the cards so it wouldn't be much of an investment anyways.

Anyways, I do have Dustbowl, so I have a janky alternative.

Ghost Quarter would actually be a less janky alternative as it can be a straight up Strip Mine in some matchups (most Delver tempo decks don't run any basics, etc).

DragoFireheart
04-04-2013, 10:39 AM
Ghost Quarter would actually be a less janky alternative as it can be a straight up Strip Mine in some matchups (most Delver tempo decks don't run any basics, etc).

A one-of Ghost Quarter to deal with problematic lands that doesn't cost a few hundred dollars? Sounds fine to me.

On a different note, how could I tweak this deck to work in multiplayer?

kingsey
05-12-2013, 10:54 PM
Just took 2nd out of 420 at the bazaar of moxen.


Bant Aggro

Juan Miguel Carrascosa

Sideboard





Creatures [23]
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Noble Hierarch


Instants [11]
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares




Sorceries [4]
4 Green Sun's Zenith


Planeswalkers [2]
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant


Lands [21]
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Plains
1 Tundra
2 Karakas
2 Savannah
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath


2 Submerge
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Meddling Mage
2 Envelop
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Rest in Peace
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle

KobeBryan
06-21-2013, 02:56 PM
This place is kinda dead.

Let me add something.

Trying out the Dark Depths combo. The way I configured it, it does minimal intrusions to your MD before adding the combo.

Creatures
4 knights of the reliquary
3 vendillion clique
2 qasali pridemage
4 noble hierarch
1 scavenging ooze
1 scryb ranger

lands
1 dark depths
1 thespian stage
1 flooded strand
3 windswept heath
3 tropical island
2 wasteland
1 plains
1 island
1 forest
2 tundra
1 savannah
4 misty rainforest
1 karakas

instants
4 brainstorm
4 swords to plowshares
4 force of will
3 spell pierce

other
1 ponder
3 jace the mind sculptor
1 life from the loam
4 green sun's zenith


sideboard:
1 engineered explosives
2 surgical extraction
1 bojuka bog
2 negate
2 flusterstorm
1 gaddock teeg
3 path to exiles
1 krosan grip
2 jittes

I can usually stick with my gameplan and that is to beat face with knights. but when the board gets stale, you gsz your dark depths and thespian and activate on their EOT. you do this with your scryb ranger.

then they have a big fatty they gotta deal with, which they usually can't.

The only cards i cut are 1 maze of ith for the dark depth 1 wasteland for thespian. and 1 life from the loam for the 61st card.

I may cut one of the negates in the board to free up a slot for Thrun

ThediscoPower
06-22-2013, 12:53 AM
I was thinking about making a version of this deck, however, I don't really feel like investing too much on it right now. Essentially, i pretty much have all blue-black and white staples (including fetches and lands, and stuff like wasteland), but I am missing most of the green stuff. So the today's great question is: is bird of paradise a good substitute for noble hierarch for this deck to work well? It is a temporary solution, but i still want to know if there is a possibility to run that in a local tournament. The objective is mostly to see if I like this deck or not, and I wanted to play with Knight of the reliquary, a card I had so much fun playing back in standard, but never ever played again. I am still brewing up, but I will post what I am thinking about trying a bit later.

KobeBryan
06-22-2013, 02:18 AM
I was thinking about making a version of this deck, however, I don't really feel like investing too much on it right now. Essentially, i pretty much have all blue-black and white staples (including fetches and lands, and stuff like wasteland), but I am missing most of the green stuff. So the today's great question is: is bird of paradise a good substitute for noble hierarch for this deck to work well? It is a temporary solution, but i still want to know if there is a possibility to run that in a local tournament. The objective is mostly to see if I like this deck or not, and I wanted to play with Knight of the reliquary, a card I had so much fun playing back in standard, but never ever played again. I am still brewing up, but I will post what I am thinking about trying a bit later.

Can't really talk budget in this thread, but the answer is no. You want the exalted.

ThediscoPower
06-22-2013, 02:47 AM
Can't really talk budget in this thread, but the answer is no. You want the exalted.

well, that anwsers the question well enough. If the deck isn't gonna work without them, then i guess I can forget bant for now, I am literally putting all my power in finishing the foilage of my esperblade deck. Hopefully I can talk someone into trading hierarchs along with my missing esper pieces (read: jaces (ouchies))...

JJ-JKidd
07-02-2013, 04:38 AM
I really dont know why UGW-Geist does not get that much attention. IMHO having played Geist in UW and UWR, I noticed that it lacked the size to be a really potent threat, which can be addressed by exalted triggers--Noble H and/or Qasali P. Plus, powering-out a turn 2 Geist via NH would be a great advantage IMHO.

HSCK
07-14-2013, 11:34 PM
It does see a significant amount of play, but if you're opting for a Jace shell with Maverick elements game one it kind of goes in another direction. Most decks have it in the SB if not MD.

KobeBryan
07-14-2013, 11:41 PM
I really dont know why UGW-Geist does not get that much attention. IMHO having played Geist in UW and UWR, I noticed that it lacked the size to be a really potent threat, which can be addressed by exalted triggers--Noble H and/or Qasali P. Plus, powering-out a turn 2 Geist via NH would be a great advantage IMHO.

geists fights over the same slot as vendillion clique. If there isn't so many combo decks out right now, geist is a good choice.

monovfox
08-05-2013, 04:15 PM
My friend sent me a list for "62 special" a few months back. I wanted something similar to it, so I built this. Thoughts?

4x Brainstorm
1x Cold-Eyed Selkie
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Fable of Wolf and Owl
1x Force of Will
1x Forest
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Gaea's Cradle
3x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Karakas
3x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Maze of Ith
1x Misdirection
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Noble Hierarch
1x Plains
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Savannah
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Spell Pierce
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Tropical Island
1x Trygon Predator
1x Tundra
2x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
3x Wasteland
4x Windswept Heath

dcosiem
08-18-2013, 12:18 AM
I don't think this is playable at a large scale tournament. You don't even have Mother of Runes to protect your creatures from Abrupt Decay.

KobeBryan
10-10-2013, 02:30 AM
lands
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
4 Wasteland
1 Savannah
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Island

creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Judge's Familiar
3 Loxodon Smiter

spells
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Daze
3 Stifle

artifacts
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

enchantment
3 Rest in Peace

sideboard
3 Path to Exile
2 Flusterstorm
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Krosan Grip
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Swan Song
1 Relic of Progenitus
[/DECK]

check out this new list. Please critique. I'm trying to save this deck.

DragoFireheart
10-10-2013, 03:28 PM
check out this new list. Please critique. I'm trying to save this deck.

-8 cards.
+4 Shardless Agent
+4 Ancestral Vision

Will probably want Counterbalance somewhere as well since you lack Discard and Cascading into Daze/Spell Pierce/Stifle is probably a bad idea.

Being able to Cascade into Goyfs and SFM seems fun.

KobeBryan
10-10-2013, 05:22 PM
-8 cards.
+4 Shardless Agent
+4 Ancestral Vision

Will probably want Counterbalance somewhere as well since you lack Discard and Cascading into Daze/Spell Pierce/Stifle is probably a bad idea.

Being able to Cascade into Goyfs and SFM seems fun.

I found the counterbalance style still isn't on par with BUG.

DragoFireheart
10-10-2013, 06:31 PM
I found the counterbalance style still isn't on par with BUG.

That probably answers your question as you whether this deck is salvageable or not. Well, at least as mid-range. If these colors can't be at least as good as the BUG colors for mid-range power than we need to build a different deck style that is not mid-range.

KobeBryan
10-10-2013, 07:18 PM
That probably answers your question as you whether this deck is salvageable or not. Well, at least as mid-range. If these colors can't be at least as good as the BUG colors for mid-range power than we need to build a different deck style that is not mid-range.

Yup...midrange is not the way to go. I'm trying to build a tempo version.

Megadeus
10-10-2013, 08:34 PM
Geist plus exalted triggers seems good

Captain Hammer
11-25-2013, 03:58 AM
Hi guys,

Below is the list that I'm currently running, I would really appreciate your feedback or any needed changes or problems that you see. Thank you.

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Trygon Predator
2 Rhox War Monk
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Progenitus
4 Natural Order
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

1 Island
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand

limbo
11-25-2013, 09:01 AM
Hi guys,

Below is the list that I'm currently running, I would really appreciate your feedback or any needed changes or problems that you see. Thank you.

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Trygon Predator
2 Rhox War Monk
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Progenitus
4 Natural Order
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

1 Island
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand

This list is pretty far from the norm. Here are a few thoughts. Trygon Predator is much better in vintage, but in legacy has far fewer targets and the body doesn't hold up well. I think you would be better served to have green sun's zenith in those spots. I also think you want a third white producing land. +4 GSZ, +1 tundra, -2 T. Pred, -3 other non-land would be a good starting place.

Just me
11-25-2013, 10:49 AM
I think a singleton Trygon Predator is a smart move with all the Stoneforging for equipment these days. The second, as redundancy, might be better in the board though.

HSCK
11-25-2013, 12:39 PM
Also, -2 Sower, -Rafiq, -1 NO, -2 Daze
+4 TNN, +2 Spell Pierce.

I'm only really on Bant because of how well TNN fits.

Captain Hammer
11-25-2013, 04:24 PM
Thank you, those are good suggestions. Im curious what is wrong with playing the 4th Natural Order.

Its an amazing card and I cant ever recall feeling that 4 is too many. Hell if I could play 5, I would because its a card that I want to draw every single game I play.

CaptainTwiddle
11-25-2013, 08:44 PM
Hi guys,

Below is the list that I'm currently running, I would really appreciate your feedback or any needed changes or problems that you see. Thank you.

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile

4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Trygon Predator
2 Rhox War Monk
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Progenitus
4 Natural Order
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

1 Island
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand

This list is really different. I just think that the strength of Bant right now is centered largely around Stoneforge Mystic + True-Name Nemesis alongside the ability to play Green Sun's Zenith and Knight of the Reliquary (that's a whole lot of toolboxing). Aside from the omission of all these elements in the list in question, I also feel like the 6 pieces of spot removal in the maindeck is a bit much.


Thank you, those are good suggestions. Im curious what is wrong with playing the 4th Natural Order.

Its an amazing card and I cant ever recall feeling that 4 is too many. Hell if I could play 5, I would because its a card that I want to draw every single game I play.

I think the issue with Natural Order in the current meta is that Progenitus just isn't as threatening as it used to be. Against SNT decks, for example, Griselbrand can just race it. The fact that you have to sac a creature as a cost to cast NO makes it an opportunity to get blown out. Elves would probably be interested in running a full four copies of NO if they weren't so good at drawing cards (though they do usually pack the 4th in the board), but they have more NO targets to justify it (Craterhoof x2 + Progenitus). This deck has Brainstorm + Ponder to act as the virtual 4th copy of NO.

HSCK
11-28-2013, 03:37 PM
I agree on NO, we'd rather just get the 3 mana mini-pro over the actual one.

Asthereal
11-28-2013, 06:09 PM
@Hammer: I'm missing something more serious in your list than what the others have posted about: Tarmogoyf. You really want at least a few beaters that are strong on their own. Goyf would do that trick. Knight of the Reliquary is the other usual suspect for that slot.

If you love Natural Order (I still do, despite what the other guys here are saying), I'd recommend something like this:

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Vendilion Clique
1 Progenitus /14

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order /27

3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand /19

Side:
4 Spell Pierce
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Detention Sphere
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Path to Exile /15

This will work a lot better with Natural Order (more ways to protect it), but still it runs 4x Goyf and 3x Zenith, so you can just as easily go for plan B (just kill them with big Goyfs).

Deckerator
11-29-2013, 12:36 PM
If i were you i would kick the natural order package and add 2-3x True Name Nemesis.
Furthermore i would only play ~2 Vendilion Cliques.
Maybe you can add a Stoneforge package or ~2x Qasali Pridemage.

Asthereal
11-30-2013, 04:20 AM
Sure, Nemesis is great with the StoneBlade package.
I mentioned the full set of Cliques because they are great to protect the Natural Order, which the Captain seems to really like. :smile:

KobeBryan
12-02-2013, 12:11 AM
@Hammer: I'm missing something more serious in your list than what the others have posted about: Tarmogoyf. You really want at least a few beaters that are strong on their own. Goyf would do that trick. Knight of the Reliquary is the other usual suspect for that slot.

If you love Natural Order (I still do, despite what the other guys here are saying), I'd recommend something like this:

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Vendilion Clique
1 Progenitus /14

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares /27

3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand /19

Side:
4 Spell Pierce
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Detention Sphere
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Path to Exile /15

This will work a lot better with Natural Order (more ways to protect it), but still it runs 4x Goyf and 3x Zenith, so you can just as easily go for plan B (just kill them with big Goyfs).

You're really wasting the utility of the green sun's zenith without bullets. You only really have beaters to search up.

HSCK
12-02-2013, 10:03 AM
You only really need two: One Pridemage and One Ooze.

Asthereal
12-03-2013, 05:35 AM
You're really wasting the utility of the green sun's zenith without bullets. You only really have beaters to search up.
No I'm not. They are in the sideboard. :smile:

The list is focused on Order, and so Zenith has the "get Arbor" purpose, and the plan B of "get Goyf". Giving it more purposes weakens the main plan. I know you guys don't like the main plan, but if you want to play Order, I strongly feel you need to tune your deck in such a way as to optimize for Order. You will need enough blue cards to support Force of Will, which is the main protector of Order. All silver bullets we play mean we have less blue cards to pitch to FoW. That's why I put all those in the sideboard. In that way I can just bring them in when I need them (and take out FoW when I don't need it).

Koby
12-03-2013, 11:40 AM
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Vendilion Clique
1 Progenitus /14

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares /27

3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand /19

Side:
4 Spell Pierce
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Detention Sphere
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Path to Exile /15


Sweet list, but how do you put Progenitus into play? :smile:

The Treefolk Master
12-03-2013, 12:10 PM
Sweet list, but how do you put Progenitus into play? :smile:

Zenith with X=10.

Asthereal
12-03-2013, 12:10 PM
Right. And of course playing 8 StP is no problem at all. Edited.

KobeBryan
01-04-2015, 01:39 AM
This deck has a new toy in monastery mentor.

With GSZ, you can use it consistently and recycle it, even without fetching a creature to get tokens and get prowess.

You can abuse the counterbalance/top with recycling tops for prowess.

Here's a basic list

20 lands (4 wastelands)

13
4 nobles
2 drs
1 rhox warmonk
1 dryad arbor
1 pridemage
4 monastery mentor


21
4 fow
4 brainstorm
3 counterbalance
3 sensei's diving top
4 swords to plowshares
3 gsz

6 flex slots for blue stuff to run with fow

anwei
01-04-2015, 02:20 PM
I think Bant could certainly be the best shell for it. Not so sure about the cb package - trades out a lot of the speed of green for spells which provide short term card disadvantage. The blue cantrip package might be stronger.

limbo
01-05-2015, 01:54 PM
Second place list from this weekend's SCG: Bant Deathblade (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=78241)

8 dork list, with pridemages, 2 walkers and 2 geist. Sideboard seems a little jumbled, but pretty clear what the pilot was going for. All in all, I really like it and it is nice to see a good Bant result.

KobeBryan
01-05-2015, 01:57 PM
Second place list from this weekend's SCG: Bant Deathblade (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=78241)

8 dork list, with pridemages, 2 walkers and 2 geist. Sideboard seems a little jumbled, but pretty clear what the pilot was going for. All in all, I really like it and it is nice to see a good Bant result.

Pretty good list, though I'm not a huge fan of daze.

Poron
01-05-2015, 07:40 PM
in a meta of 1/1 endless tokens, vanilla creatures even 20/20 don't mean anything.

Marit Lage is fine just because it flies.

KobeBryan
01-25-2015, 09:46 PM
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top


2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Monastery Mentor
2 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 True-Name Nemesis
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Vendilion Clique


3 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Karakas
1 Flooded Strand
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Underground Sea


SB: flusterstorm
SB: 2 Counterbalance
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor (helps against combo to get my shit, self explanatory)
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Rhox War Monk
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives (not needed since I may board wipe my tokens, need a replacement)
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist

Tried a list on cockatrice. Its pretty fun when i get the engine going. The GSZ, though without a target, can drop tokens for me with monastary mentor. The sensei's divining top also helps with the token generation.

I don't like the counterbalance in the sideboard as it is just simply too slow. I'm not sure how that guy who proposed to go counter balance, stoneforge, and NO package in the deck is doing. Just couldn't put the pieces together. I think I may just drop the counterbalance package for just straight counters, ie. spell pierces.

Still dies to golgari charm effects, but if you play your brainstorm wisely, it will save your tokens.

Draws like crazy when I got some tokens generating and edric.

anwei
01-25-2015, 10:42 PM
Tried a list on cockatrice. Its pretty fun when i get the engine going.

The story is told, perhaps apocryphally, of a developer on a college campus who opted not to build sidewalks in the "quad"/courtyard area, at least initially. Instead, he waited to see where students would walk on the open grass. Once those paths had been clearly worn, he built sidewalks in those places, ensuring that no structural rigidity would usurp the students' actual needs.
----
In the past year, this thread has had 6 posts: half of them yours. The original Bant thread has received a modest 8-ish pages of thoughtful discussion. Both primers are incomplete/outdated in describing a not-top-tier-but-always-competitive smorgasbord of archetypes, but that's the thread people use. If posting in this one, and receiving replies from people who see it, eventually supplants that one, the history of the discussion will be the worse for it.
I provided a couple thoughts over there. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16059-Deck-Bant&p=863903&viewfull=1#post863903)

MeeskMan
05-28-2015, 11:03 PM
Hey gang!
I just started legacy and I think this is the deck I want to play, The cards I own are
*4 Knight of the Reliquary
*3 Geist of Saint Traft
*4 Mother of Runes
*1 Gaddock Teeg
*4 Meddling Mage
*4 Gitaxian Probe
*2 Snapcaster Mage
I could cut some of these cards but I would like to run the majority of these cards so that I wont have to buy more. I considered Bant company aggro but I'm not sure. I'm still debating if I should buy 4 Deathrite Shaman or 4 Noble Hierarch and maybe 4 Living Wish. If you could, how would you make a deck with this list of cards or the majority of these cards. I kinda want to make a switch-army knife like deck with living wish to grab the right creature/land I need to get me out of parody and get me in the lead. I'm trying to make a deck with lots of hate against the majority of the meta. I really want to do this because for me I can't really learn a format unless I play it a lot so I want a deck that is OK in most games but by no means tier 1 (if that makes any sense). I guess I want to make a Bant aggro deck with hatebears. I want to use this deck to understand the format and the make a better one later, a lot of these cards I would want to use in a better future deck. Is it even worth of me to start this deck? If anyone can help me out in any way that would be awesome, thanks!

Madmankevinx
05-30-2015, 11:06 PM
I'm not too convinced that in a Blue and White deck, green is the best option for a third. Black or Red just bring more to the table now and Deathrite Shaman is a more impactful mana ramp dork than Noble Hierarch. Black or red also bring excellent combo hate in the form of discard or red elemental blast etc. I'd look into esper or jeskai with the current meta.

Jon
09-21-2015, 06:59 PM
Hello all! I played a similar style at a Local GPT for SeaTac yesterday and split top 4 out of 25ish players. I am garbage at reports but I will leave my deck list and matches as I remember them so people can criticize my list.

RD1 D&T, 2-1, Should have lost all 3, opponent missed some lines and played over carefully and I drew well
RD2 Enchantress, 2-0, My opponent got slammed by keeping meh hands and me having super fast TNN + Exalted
RD3 Manaless Dredge, 2-0, T1 Forest GSZ -> Dryad Arbor, T2 Cast Scooze and play Cradle, GG
RD4 Elves, Draw
RD5 Bant Stoneblade, Draw

T4 BUG Midrange Value Pile, 2-1 G1 was close and he got me, G2 I mulled to 4 and managed to win, G3 took about half an hour and I barely got it when he made a error

Walked away with 22 packs or 66 in credit ( Took Credit )

Here is my list

4 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Quasali Pridemage
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 True Name Nemesis
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Rafiq of the Many

2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Suns Zeneth
1 Collected Company

3 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heaths
2 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor


SB
1 Seedtime
1 Rest in Peace
1 Warmth
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Spell Peirce
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Enlightening Tutor
3 Meddling Mages
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Bane of Progress

Changes would be better fetches first off, never was an issue but, yeah.
I would like to -2 Knight, +1 Edric, +1 Trygon Pred to see if I like that better, Knight was pretty dumpster all day.

limbo
09-28-2015, 11:02 AM
Nice finish. I like a lot of the sideboard cards, big effects in the right situations.

I have never seen a successful bant list that eschews brainstorm and all counter magic. Curious to find out if your success continues. Thanks for posting.

Jon
09-28-2015, 09:07 PM
Nice finish. I like a lot of the sideboard cards, big effects in the right situations.

I have never seen a successful bant list that eschews brainstorm and all counter magic. Curious to find out if your success continues. Thanks for posting.

I will continue to play the deck in conjunction with my landstill piles. Probably play bant in the upcoming PiQ here in Atlanta, I also want to try a shardless bant with Thopters in the future.


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