[Deck] Imperial Painter

[DrewliusMaximus]

By now, most Legacy players probably know a bit about Imperial Painter. But the deck requires a set of Imperial Recruiters and doesn’t run Brainstorm, so why would you even consider building it?

The reason to play iPainter is that its fundamental strategy attacks the Legacy meta in a powerful and unique way: while assembling combo pieces capable of either winning the game or generating instant-speed 1cc Vindicates/Counterspells, it directly hates all non-basic lands and the color blue, two relative constants in the format over time.

Brief History with Links

On May 2, 2008, Shadowmoor was released and Eternal magic received two new combos with the addition of Swans of Bryn Argoll and Painter’s Servant. Most of the initial hype involved Swans, but later that month, Okazawa Tatsu placed 5th at the 51-player Ancient Memory Convention 36 in Japan with “Mono-Red Painter” (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=326&d=120128), and the Imperial Painter archetype was born.

Tatsu discovered the obscure Imperial Recruiter’s power in this deck. Not only does Recruiter find Servant, but it also finds Magus of the Moon and fits perfectly with a Stompy mana curve. On top of that, red lends itself to abusing Servant with a bunch of Red Elemental Blasts/Pyroblasts in the main deck, conveniently hating Legacy’s dominant color as a natural side effect.

Imperial Painter made several top-8’s in June 2008 including Michael “Hollywood” Keller placing second in a 49-person Hadley tournament (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?10129-Report-Imperial-Painter-Finals-at-Hadley-6-28-08) around the same time he introduced the deck to the Source (first thread here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?10090-Deck-Imperial-Painter)).

I Top 4’d Star City Dallas/Ft Worth in 2010 (http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/2945) and placed 12th at the same event early the following year (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5792&iddeck=41952) before Kim Grymer piloted iPainter to its biggest showing to date, finishing 7th in Grand Prix Amsterdam in October, 2011 (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7050&iddeck=51147).

Here are more notable iPainter performances since then:

Nov 2011 - Jonathan Suarez places 7th at SCG Charlotte (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7319&iddeck=53271)

Jan 2012 – Jeremy Liger places 5th out of 240 at Legacy Cachan (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7528&iddeck=54693) (with Punishing Fires!)

Feb 2012 – Lasse V Hansen places 7th out of 234 in Madrid (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7875&iddeck=57351)

Not Top 8’s, but a couple of Texas guys Top 16 SCG in March 2012 – Michael Dye (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7865&iddeck=57267) gets 11th (abusing Welder) and Bill Yowell (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7865&iddeck=57270) gets 14th at SCG Dallas/Ft Worth:

Jan 2013 - I finished 7th at SCG Dallas/Ft Worth (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10013&iddeck=72986) even though I played like shit several times.

Deck Construction and Basic Strategy

What is iPainter’s core strategy? Abuse Moon effects and Painter’s Servant interactions with Grindstone and blue-hating red cards using a Stompy manabase.

This is iPainter’s skeleton (cards common to nearly all decklists):

6-8 Ancient Tomb or City of Traitors
4-8 Simian Spirit Guide, Chrome Mox, and/or Lotus Petal
4-7 Magus of the Moon and Blood Moon
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter’s Servant
5+ Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast
4 Grindstone*

*Except for Tatsu’s list. It’s funny, but the first iPainter ran 3 Grindstones. I don’t know if it was intentional or if Tatsu only had 3 when he threw the deck together. The other exception here would be in the case of splashing white for E Tutor or blue for Trinket Mage.

iPainter generally tries to:

assemble the combo win as soon as possible and preferably go off with an advantage (with Blast backup, in response to removal, etc.);
combine Servant with Blasts to answer most types of threats while gaining board advantage or finding Grindstone;
play a Moon effect and then follow up (many times Recruit an appropriate creature);
lock the opponent out with Moon effects.

The core decklist wins either with the Grindstone combo or with dork-beatdown.

Imperial Recruiter’s ability is the engine that allows the red Stompy manabase to complement the Servant plan so well, and it also makes iPainter one of the more resilient/consistent Stompy decks. Recruiter is card-advantage at its best.

The Recruiter Engine finds critical pieces while laying down a chump blocker/attacker. Another more subtle option with the Recruiter Engine is the ability to “chain” Recruiters and out-draw your opponent. If your opponent is in topdeck mode and/or other conditions are right, you can consider playing the long game by Recruiting Recruiters for a few turns. This works especially well if you play Sensei’s Tops.

Aside from the core cards, iPainter decklists have varied in several ways. Here are some historically used strategies and cards:

Add Burn

Lightning Bolt
Magma Jet
Firebolt
Others for consideration might be Forked Bolt, Arc Lightning

Abuse Servant and Blue-Hate More

More Blasts
Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
Chaotic Backlash

Abuse Stompy Manabase and Moon more

More Moon or Magus
A full 8 Sol Lands
6-8 SSG + Mox/Petal
Phyrexian Revoker* - should be considered a good Stompy component
Others like Trinisphere (Hollywood succeeded with it MD in an early list)

Add Deck Manipulation for Consistency

Sensei’s Divining Top (with Fetches)
Faithless Looting (usually with Goblin Welder)
Magma Jet

Add Aggro Mode

Figure of Destiny
Kargan Dragonlord


Toolbox for Recruiter

Goblin Welder
Phyrexian Revoker
Phyrexian Metamorph
Spellskite
Vexing Shusher
Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
Grim Lavamancer
Goblin Sharpshooter
Others

Add Equipment

Umezawa's Jitte
Batterskull
Sword of Light and Shadow

Abuse Welder

More Welder
Faithless Looting
Gamble
Lotus Petal
Wurmcoil Engine
Solemn Simulacrum
Witchbane Orb

Add More/Resilient Win Conditions

Koth of the Hammer
Wildfire Emissary
Batterskull
Stuffy Doll

Punishing Fires

Punishing Fires
Grove of the Burnwillows
Chrome Mox - especially attractive with P Fires because you can pitch Moons if you want to keep Groves active

Splash Colors

White – Enlightened Tutor, Stoneforge Mystic, Ethersworn Canonist, others
Black – Perish, Nature’s Ruin, Dark Confidant, others
Blue – Trinket Mage, Laboratory Maniac, others
No record of Green splash

Sideboard construction - Depends on MD, so SB strategy should probably be discussed for specific builds. Inherent bad matchups for iPainter include:

Any Eldrazi deck
Zoo
Maverick
Jund
Aggro Loam
Burn
Charbelcher and other fast combo not vulnerable to Moon effects

Other than cards in the maindeck options listed above, here are some common sideboard selections:

Thorn of Amethyst
Trinisphere
Leyline of Sanctity
Mindbreak Trap
Pyrostatic Pillar
Surgical Extraction
Faerie Macabre
Tormod’s Crypt
Relic of Progenitus
Leyline of the Void
Nihil Spellbomb
Shattering Spree
Manic Vandal
Viashino Heretic
Gorilla Shaman
Ratchet Bomb
Engineered Explosives
Ensnaring Bridge
Pyroclasm
Slagstorm
Volcanic Fallout
Rolling Earthquake
Firespout
Pyrokinesis
Sulfur Elemental
More Blasts
More Moon effects

The above is just a start, and I’m sure there should be more cards listed. Even without splashing a color, the variety of cards available for iPainter is good and there are multiple ways to build the deck competitively.

From the last iPainter thread, Seth (sroncor) posted most about color splashes and I remember the black splash with SB Perish being really appealing when Zoo was dominating the meta. After throwing Mental Misstep into my mono-red list when they were legal, I finally added blue because it fit so naturally at the time, and included a single Trinket Mage. That was the only time I splashed and it was actually one of the better performing builds I’ve played. After MM was banned though, I felt like even the single Trinket mage was a dead card during play just enough that it wasn’t worth the splash.

Splashing a color in iPainter requires significant justification because of the obvious conflict with a Stompy+Moon plan and more importantly, because it increases your vulnerability to Wasteland and Stifle. Another inherent strength of the deck is its relatively solid manabase, and splashing needs to be worth sacrificing stability.

One card that is common to most lists historically but has been dropped by some recently is Jaya Ballard. Jaya was definitely made for this deck, working well with both Recruiter and Servant. However, she is slow (most of the time), fragile, and creates card disadvantage. On the other hand, she can solve a wide variety of problems. Jaya provides all-purpose burn which is decent removal on its own and offers a win condition with reach. The non-spell-based Vindicate effect kills Emrakul with Servant in play and destroying lands can turn Moon (and SB cards like Thorn of Amethyst and Trinisphere) into a hard lock. Even without Servant, Jaya will take out Jace and Counterbalance. Also, don’t underestimate her mass burn ability, which can finish a game if the life totals allow it.

Most iPainter lists have added burn, at least a few cards for consistency, and at least a few Recruiter toolbox options to the core decklist. Burn interacts with creatures, planeswalkers and supports the beatdown win. Although it was not the case in early lists, most iPainter builds now include at least a few Tops, Lootings, or Jets to avoid stalling out. The most popular Recruitable cards in the MD aside from Servant and Magus are probably Jaya, Welder, Revoker, Metamorph and the aggro option (Dragonlord or Figure). Spellskite might be in there too.

Some of the variation in iPainter lists/strategies seems to fall along these dimensions:

All-in Early Game vs. Sustainability – more first turn moons, early Painter-activated Blasts, fast bombs/locks OR more deck manipluation, all-purpose removal, recursion, protection, etc?
All-in on Core Plan vs. Variety/Options – maximize support for Moon locks, Servant-activated plays OR add aggro options for Recruiter, play more Welder with Welder-targets, maximize burn, etc?

The End

I’ll close this up with a mention of Imperial Recruiter’s scarcity. Up to this point, the lack of Recruiters in circulation has created another advantage for Imperial Painter: most players don’t prepare for it. Unless the availability of this mission-critical card increases significantly, iPainter will probably never make it into the DTB category and will continue to be a surprise matchup most of the time, especially at larger events.

Although the short supply of Recruiters will surely limit the number of iPainters out there, hopefully a few deck builders and players will be able to keep innovating with the deck.

Thanks to:

Kap’n Cook for sharing the primer he started writing and adding his own strategy explanation to the iPainter 2.0 discussion.

Okazama Tatsu for creating the deck and making me consider buying Recruiters instead of Tarmogoyfs.

Hollywood for starting the first thread which convinced me to buy my Recruiters (better investment that Goyfs would have been).

Kim Grymer for proving that this deck can place at an event of any size.

[Kap'n Cook]

Card rulings and interactions:

Painter's Servant
For starters, you choose a color when servant resolves, before it is on the battlefield. Choosing a color cannot be stifled. The color you choose makes every card that color, including the ones in each hand, graveyard, and library (and I guess sideboard too). Opponents who have never played against Painter sometimes get confused about that. Regarding humility, color effects are in a higher layer so they still apply. The end result is a 1/1 painter's servant with no text that makes everything the color you choose, so grindstone milling still works. Red blasting a non-blue spell or permanent will only counter/kill it if painter on blue is still in play upon blast resolution. Let's assume painter comes into play and you choose blue. Sword of Fire and Ice is now blue. It CAN be equipped to a creature, but it will then grant pro-blue and fall off that creature. Same holds true for each other sword. There are other corner cases. For example, goblin piledriver gains protection from everything with a painter on blue. A mirran crusader can't hold a jitte when you put painter on green or black. A painter on green allows your opponent to green sun for any creature in their deck. A painter in play nullifies eye of ugin searching for a colorless eldrazi. Celestial purge out of miracles sideboards can hit a painter on black or red if you are not careful and so on. Naming blue allows force of will to pitch any card to it.

Grindstone
The biggest thing that comes up in rulings is the resolving of grindstone. The ability does not care whether the cards hit the graveyard or not to continue. Because of this, you can combo through a rest in peace or leyline of the void (both solve the 2x progenitus issue). Progenitus is a replacement effect and never goes to the yard. If there is 1 in an opponents library, it becomes the top card with nothing else. 2x means an instant draw unless rip or leyline is in play. With eldrazi shuffle triggers, grindstone fully resolves first, putting every card in the graveyard. Then the shuffle triggers are resolved so you have time to tormod's crypt in response. The 'combo' does not need grindstone on the field upon resolution, only a painter.

Blood Moon
Turns each nonbasic land into a mountain. They are still non-basic for price of progress. Legendary lands are still legendary. ETB tapped lands still enter tapped. Dryad arbor becomes a 1/1 mountain dryad that taps for red mana (I believe it is still green though). Blood Moon/Magus override Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth. City of traitors does not need to be sacrificed upon playing another land. Ancient tomb and City of brass do not deal damage to the player. Lands that enter with counters on them keep their counters.

Magus of the Moon
Similar to Painter, the magus ability is applied above humility. Magus will be a 1/1 creature with no text that turns each nonbasic into a mountain.

Imperial Recruiter
Searches any creature with power 2 or less. Creatures with a * for power like tarmogoyf apply the check in all zones, so you could only recruiter for goyf with 2 types of cards in the yard. Creatures with 0 power that add counters upon etb are fair game.

Goblin Welder
Errata makes welder have much longer text. You choose an artifact either player controls and an artifact in that same players graveyard. The swap only occurs if both artifacts are still legal targets upon resolution, meaning if the artifact in play is destroyed or the artifact in the yard is removed, nothing happens and you just end up with a tapped welder. For old school metamorph plays, you can choose to copy the artifact you are welding out.

Simian Spirit Guide
Exiling ssg does not use the stack and cannot be stifled

Phyrexian Revoker
Just like Painter, you choose a card upon resolution. After it resolves, your opponent does not have time to activate whatever you are going to name.

Jaya
1st ability checks color upon resolution. 2nd and 3rd do not. All 3 can be stifled, but you still have to discard a card.

REB and Pyro
Each card is modal. This means if you choose the 'counter target spell' mode, your opponent cannot misdirect it to a permanent and vice versa. Let's say you do not have a painter out, and you try to REB an in-play jace. Your opponent cannot misdirect your REB to either misdirection or another non-blue permanent, but they can choose their in play snapcaster mage. If you Pyroblast in the same scenario, your opponent cannot misdirect your pyro to misdirection, but can choose any non-blue permanent in play, such as your land. You can target a non-blue spell or permanent with pyroblast, but not REB (helpful when trying to get under an ensnaring bridge).



If you open a hand that can do this turn 1 on the play, do it 100% of the time game 1 against an unknown opponent. I don’t care if your hand is 1 Blood Moon 5 sol lands and a Monkey, keep and play the moon. Yes, some games will be lost because they are playing burn or goblins or high tide or they opened with the force of will whatever, but other games will just be won without them even taking a turn. It is always worth doing. Magus of the moon I would be a little more hesitant. If you are on the draw it depends a lot more on what the rest of your hand contains.

Matchups
sideboarding guides will be general since everyone has different lists. I almost never take out blasts for example, but drew's sb-ing above does.

BUG Delver
Moon is obviously at its best in this matchup. Besides that, just play out a normal game. If they waste time and keep open black and green mana afraid of blood moon let them keep it open and play out something else instead. They do not have card advantage and time is on your side. You can chain recruiters or sculpt your hand and wait until moon does the most damage, ideally when you can play around possible answers like daze, force, or decay.

sb: moons are good, bridges are good, burn is good. jaya and top can be slow and revoker only hits deathrite. if you choose to bring in all moons and bridges, I might side out the other rec targets and try to play a full on moon/painter game.

Bigger BUG
Usually with Planeswalkers and usually without daze. Moon again is your trump card. Besides that it is the same matchup as Delver except slower and they have the better late game. Ideally your blasts should be used to counter Liliana and Jace.

sb: bridges are good, moons are good, burn not so much. revokers hit deathrite, deed, jace, liliana. slower game, so tops help against discard and fatesealing. all 4 bridges may not be needed

Canadian
Harder than BUG solely due to their burn spells. Because Mongoose has shroud, always use lightning bolt on delver over using a blast. If you can snipe a goyf at 1/2, even better. Same thing as BUG, if you can drop a blood moon playing around daze or force, it is usually better to wait a turn. If they drop a goyf in the turn you didn’t play moon, well now it’s a race to assemble your combo or kill it with a blast. Sideboard mainly watch out for Ancient Grudge and their own possible red blasts.

sb: bridges are the best, burn only hits delver, and revoker hits nothing. I would cut down to 1 magus since investing early could lead you to get blown out by a burn spell. jaya is way too slow. ratchet bomb hits mongoose and goyf. I would bring in rip, maybe bring in relic, and never bring in tormod crypt.

Sneak Attack
The best chance you have of beating this game 1 is to recognize what they are playing extremely early. Blasts should be used to counter Show and Tell 90% of the time, the other 10% when you have a moon out and can knock them off blue. Goblin Welder with Metamorph in the Graveyard shuts them completely down unless than can Sneak in 2 Emrakul (allow grisel to attack and then kill it). Protect Ensnaring Bridge the best you can and this matchup feels like a breeze if you get a few turns.

sb: blood moons are pretty bad. 1 island or petal and it is nullified. burn is bad. all blasts are good. bridges and extra control stuff comes in. if you do not have grave hate to remove eldrazi from the yard, take out all grindstones.

Omniscience/Dream Halls
More difficult than Sneak Attack based Show and Tell since Ensnaring Bridge doesn't completely shut them down. Blasts are the number one path to victory as Moon effects are largely dead and most lists run some copies of Emrakul. If they don't, then the matchup swings into your favor. Besides that, going aggro beatz is the gameplan game 1. Game 2 should take out moons and continue the aggro/blast-control plan and/or bring in gravehate to 3-card combo them.

similar to sneak. gotta go aggro with heavy disruption or 3 card combo.

Jund
A lot harder than one would think because all of their cards are good against you. They have heavy discard, big creatures, and good spot removal. The best case scenario is Blood Moon before they can establish themselves. Otherwise just using blasts to control long enough to combo. You can’t really out resource them in the long game, so it depends on what kind of draw they have and whether it can interact well enough with you.

similar to rug, except burn is good. bridges come in as well. as far as cutting cards, if they play punishing fire, definitely cut welder, jaya, and most magus (if you play spellskite, I would keep 1 magus in to recruit for and protect late game)

Stoneblade
What many consider the best matchup for Painter since they run a shit-ton of nonbasics, are slow, and play blue. This matchup gets a lot more interesting if they can deal with your early moon effect however. If they do deal with it, I personally think this is the most fun and interactive matchup. The number one priority is dealing with Jitte, if they choose to fetch it up. Once it gets 3+ counters, you almost always lose. Batterskull is just an artifact goyf that your metamorph completely runs train on. I have been having a lot of success blowing up their plains with blasts under a moon in response to swords/path (even if it means losing painter) just because most lists are only running one plains these days. Besides that, mainly counter snapcaster and jace every time.

sb: I personally don't like bridge here, because it is only effective when you have 0 cards in hand and can't stop jace. burn delays batterskull and moon is very good. Blasts should try to counter their jace and snapcaster to prevent card advantage. watch out for surgical postboard. artifact hate for jitte/skull

Deathblade
The newest iteration of blade decks this is basically just goodstuff.dec. Moons absolutely dominate them. They have barely any counterspells, barely any removal, and barely any basics. But it is still a pile of good cards so if they can get established they have a shot. It still shouldn't be too much of a problem since our entire deck trumps their entire deck.

sb: really depends on what they run. moons, bridges, burn, revokers, jaya its all great so some card shaving and tough cuts are in store.

Storm
TES and ANT . You are mainly looking for one of two opening hands: One that can combo fast, or one that has a Painter and blast effects you use to counter their business spells. Preboard when you don’t know what you’re playing against, you usually need to get lucky and have moon completely shut them down or have one of the hands mentioned above. Sideboard gets much more interesting since everyone should be packing some combo hate. I would recommend siding out Blood Moon against TES since they run Chrome Mox in addition to petal. Magus is usually okay to keep in so you can recruit for it should it be needed. Grave hate is much better against than it is TES but it is up to you how you want to attack them. Since these decks win many games with Ad Nauseum, you should be attacking whenever possible. Sideboard watch out for abrupt decay and bounce spells when you try to activate grindstone. Because of these cards, many times it is correct to activate on their upkeep to keep them off mana for their combo turn. Belcher your goal is to get lucky and play hate/painter protection turn 1. Doomsday is much different since they run 2 or less lotus petals and usually 3 basics, so moon is still good. Also, Grindstone by itself completely fucks up their doomsday pile. On top of that, they will side in Shelldock Isle and Emrakul, completely negating your combo by itself. I haven’t come up with ideal boarding plans yet, but I usually like going for the beatdown and playing control.

sb: I don't like relying on blood moon against either tes or ant since a lotus petal/chrome mox can just fix colors but some disagree. burn is bad. all combo hate is good. extra blasts can be used to buy time against cantrips. ratchet bomb may nab artifacts against bad players but can handle goblins

Miracles
The slowest clock that you will have to worry about. The biggest enemy is counterbalance and you want to counter it every time. It is possible to play around once it is in play and you will have the time to do so. Blood Moon can keep them off white mana for a long time as well as turn off their shuffle effects. Besides being a long control game the only other thing you need to watch out for is terminus as a removal spell for your painter. If they are floating one, you can catch them off guard by activating grindstone during their draw step. (If they want to miracle a spell they will need to be the first to announce it). Grindstone can mess up counterbalance for them or on yourself after a jace fateseal. Side boarding is mainly just based upon what version they are running(RIP-helm, something else etc)

sb: burn is terrible. if they play rip, welder comes out. they run a ton of basics, but moon prevents excessive shuffling and can lock them off UU or WW for a long time. ratchet bomb is good, bridge stops clique and entreat but I would only play 2 max and blasts are great too. the matchup is definitely one to practice with, as you can easily outplay your opponent. artifact hate for potential explosives or pithing needle

Elves
Elves has a pretty consistent turn 3 goldfish so your gameplan needs to take that into account. Usually all it takes is blasting Glimpse or Natural Order and that can buy you the few extra turns you need to find grindstone. Pre-board there isn't any removal you have to be worried about so if you can combo quicker then you should win. Luckily most elves decks are not playing Emrakul anymore and are splashing multiple colors so one of the absolute worst matchups before is now quite winnable. Regarding Moon effects they are usually only effective if played turn 1 on the play. Any later than turn 1 and the elves player is usually already established with deathrite/mana elf. It can stall their cradles/quirion rangers but that will only buy you a few turns.

sb: on the draw, all moons out. on the play, moon is only good turn 1. burn is great for buying time. bridge prevents their huge combo swing. top can be slow, so its a judgement call

Merfolk
Classic Blue aggro deck. Pretty straightforward game-plan. Use blasts to kill the fish long enough to resolve both Painter and Stone. Welder shines in this matchup since they have maximum 2 creature removal spells. Naming Blue with Painter is almost always the wrong play since the only things that aren't blue that you might even consider blasting are Vial, Mutavault, Dismember, or Jitte (if they are even running the last 2). Moons aren't too hot either since their manabase is half islands, but they do stop Wasteland and Mutavault. I think keeping Magus in postboard isn't the worst. A resolved Ensnaring bridge is usually enough to win.

sb: all bridges, blasts, and burn in. ratchet bomb too. I would keep all magus in, but take all blood moon out unless you don't have much to bring in. bring in artifact hate too for vial/jitte

Goblins

The last part of the classic tribal trifecta. Harder than merfolk but any fast combo hand will win easily since they don't have counters. Waste and Port can be annoying but played around easily. Newer players just remember that you can wait for them to target a land and then use that to activate top or you can just combo them with stone during your upkeep. Naming Blue with Painter allows you to control the board but it also gives Piledriver protection from everything so caution is advised. Other small tricks to watch out for are Goblin Welder counting towards Gempalm Incinerator and Pyrokinesis.

sb: artifact hate in for chalice/vial. moons out, but magus to block and stop port waste craziness. bridges are only good with 0 cards in hand. watch out for oppo rebs.

Dredge
Everyone's favorite graveyard deck. Game 1 isn't as one-sided as you'd expect. Moons are much worse now that Faithless looting exists but they still stop coliseum and if the dredge player kept a non-looting non-LED hand then you should be able to combo them out first. Post-board gets ridiculously good with all the grave hate and ensnaring bridges. Welder-Crypt is insane and nearly impossible for Dredge to get out of. Lastly, blasts should counter discard outlets if at all possible and control Bridge from Below. Barring any crazy sideboard stuff (like Memory's Journey, which I've lost to lol) or nut-draws, Painter should take it down.

sb: moons out, burn out. bridges, grave hate, ratchet bomb, blasts in. buy time as much as possible.

Burn
Since Imperial Painter is built specifically for the Legacy format with all the dual lands and Blue spells, it shouldn't be a surprise that Burn is one of Painter's worst matchups. If the burn player knows what they are doing, then it should be very hard to win. Staving off death as long as possible with Blasts, chump blockers, and forcing them to use burn on your creatures is the route to victory. Goblin Welder is very good in this matchup as it turns every extra artifact into a new Painter they must kill. Post-board take out all blood moons and bring in removal/bridges/creatures to stall their creatures. I personally have also boarded out 2 ancient tombs since that damage adds up fast, but you may be comfortable doing something else. If you run Leyline then it is a much better matchup but there is still a lot of untargeted burn. Be wary of playing excess non-basics for no reason since Price of Progess still works under a Magus/Blood Moon. Red Blasts may be boarded in against you and smash to smithereens is definitely coming in. A pretty annoying matchup to have to deal with but definitely winnable.

sb: all moons out, 2 tombs out, jaya out. in bridges and anything that isn't dead. stall until combo

High Tide
Game 1 really comes down to what kind of hand you keep and whether or not you know they are on High Tide. If you have a Moon/Dork hand then you're pretty much out of luck. Obviously the best hand is one with heavy blasts and fast combo and that is what to look for in sideboard games. Post board the two decks become pretty much identical (combo pieces, countermagic, and search) and it becomes a race to combo off faster. If you play surgical extraction/storm hate, bring that in. Revoker can shut down Candelabra to slow them down as well. Beatdown is unlikely, but just like storm matchups, if you have the chance to attack their life total then do it. One last thing, make your opponent go through the motions after Time Spiral's because you can always draw into SSG's and blasts to stop them.

sb: burn, moons, jaya out. combo hate, blasts, and maybe grave hate for time spiral stuff if you have a ton of dead stuff.

[DrewliusMaximus]

My approach to iPainter is pretty conservative I guess. Since I don’t have as much time for mtg as I’d like and I want to take familiar lists to large tournaments every so often, I tend to opt for cards in the maindeck that address a wide variety of problems instead of focusing the hate.

In the maindeck, I’m trying to execute iPainter’s core strategy consistently but minimize dead cards, use a streamlined Recruiter toolbox, and avoid losing to my own deck.

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Scalding Tarn
11 Mountain

4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Lotus Petal

4 Blood Moon
1 Magus of the Moon

4 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
4 Grindstone

4 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Magma Jet

4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter’s Servant
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Goblin Welder

I play what I consider to be an efficient Moon plan with a full set of Enchantments and a single Recruitable Magus. Although first-turn Moon-effect wins are still one of my favorite things, a few changes to Legacy over the last few years have made me stop going all-in on the Moon plan:

1cc mana creatures – first Noble Hierarch and now Deathrite Shaman
More decks with burn makes Magus worse – Zoo days were bad, now RUG, Jund, Aggro Loam
Control deck with a more stable manabase – UW Miracles

In place of a Magus or two, I like Phyrexian Revoker. He helps against the mana-producing creatures and artifact mana under a Moon, and sometimes he is a better first-turn play than Moon.

Because I’m not all-in on the Moon plan, I have found that Chrome Mox is not worth it and seven Sol Lands seems sufficient. As a result, I’m not as worried about how many artifacts I play anymore. The single Petal looks weird, but it’s like a fifth SSG.

My MD has had five to six Blasts for a while now, but I always put more in the SB. I’ve been happy with the ratio of “happy to have a Blast” moments to “Blast is a dead card” moments for the most part.

The lists I was playing just a few iterations ago were running two Welders minimum and trying to abuse them more, but since Deathrite Shaman and Rest in Piece arrived, I have consciously minimized my dependence on the graveyard. Nonetheless, Welder can do amazing things in this deck, so I’ll probably always have at least one.

Jaya is in there because I have regretted it everytime I’ve taken her out of the MD. She provides a potential answer to too many things.

Metamorph makes it because he enables a variety of plays and helps with some of the bad MD matchups. He is a good Recruiter target against big creatures, he kills a Jitte or any legendary creature/artifact, and he is Weldable. And I have always loved this move: Recruiter for Metamorph, play Metamorph and name Recruiter, find Welder and play him, now one Recruiter has turned into Welder + Metamorph.

I would love to include an aggro option for Recruiter but Metamorph is taking that slot for now. Also, I have decided to max out on Ensnaring Bridge in my SB.

SB
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Spellskite

Thorn has become the best anti-combo card in my opinion. It might not shut down a storm deck like Trinisphere, but it is more likely to come down on turn one. Additionally, it affects Show and Tell and Sneak Attack.

Bridge is amazing in this deck, and every time I have gone down to three I have regretted it. I want a full set and the ability to commit to it as a strategy out of the board against any Aggro deck and of course, against Eldrazi.

Bomb is an all-purpose answer to many problems.

REB’s out of the board let me go back to extreme blue-hate and are especially necessary against Show and Tell.

Macabre is the Recruitable graveyard hate and Crypt is the Weldable hate. Just one Crypt in the deck with Welder also allows you to Grindstone combo against Eldrazi.

I have found that cards like Thorn and Bridge are very useful against Reanimator and against Dredge, Bridge and Bomb help. And with Deathrite Shaman and Rest in Piece hating graveyard strategies anyway, I’m comfortable with the low number of anti-gy SB cards.

Spellskite is for Jund and Burn in particular, but can come in against others. This slot could also be a second Jaya. I like having a backup to ensure there is a decent win condition under a Bridge lock aside from Grindstone.

Here are some of the SB moves I would make currently:

UW Miracles: + 2 Bomb, +2 REB / -1 Magus, -1 Metamorph, -2 Jet (or -1 Jet, -1 Moon) *I have tried Thorns here but I’m not sure about them.

RUG: +4 Bridge, +1 Blast, +1 Spellskite / -1 Magus, -2 Revoker, -3 Jet

BUG Control: +1 Crypt / -1 Metamorph (and maybe +1 Blast / -1 Jet)

Jund: +4 Bridge, +2 Bomb, +1 Spellskite / -5 Blast, -1 Magus, -1 Revoker

Esper Stoneblade: +4 Bridge, +1 Blast / -3 Jet, -1 Revoker, -1 Metamorph

Sneak and Show: +4 thorn, +4 Bridge, +2 Blast, +1 Crypt / -4 Moon, -3 Grindstone, -3 Jet, -1 Servant

Charbelcher: +4 Thorn, +2 Bomb, +2 Blast / -4 Moon, -3 Jet, -1 Magus

Dredge: +4 Bridge, +2 Bomb, +1 Macabre, +1 Crypt / -4 Moon, -3 Jet, -1 Revoker

Storm-Tendrils: +4 Thorn, +1 Blast / -3 Jet, -1 Metamorph, -1 Moon

Team America: +4 Bridge, +1 Blast (or +Spellskite) / -3 Jet, -2 Revoker

Merfolk: +4 Bridge, +2 REB / -4 Moon, -1 Metamorph, -1 Revoker

UR Delver: +4 Thorn, +1 Spellskite, +1 REB, +1 Bomb / -4 Moon, -2 Revoker, -1 Metamoprh

Burn: +4 Thorn, +1 Spellskite, +1 Bomb / -4 Moon, -1 Revoker, -1 Metamorph

Goblins: +4 Bridge, +2 Bomb, +1 Spellskite / -5 Blast, -1 Moon, -1 Metamorph

More sideboarding to come…

High Tide
Nic Fit
Reanimator
Eva Green
Affinity
Welder MUD
Aggro Loam
Blue-based Painter/Grindstone
Mirror Match

[Kap'n Cook]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/8c/05/ab/8c05ab26a618328e2c6f90c59d067330.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5KxZ5Lc_YA


Strawberry Shortcake has become the premier build of Imperial painter with the most results and high tournament finishes in recent years. It builds upon the original mono red base by adding enlightened tutors and specialized bullets. Strawberry Shortcake has been in existence from the very early beginnings of Imperial Painter (although the name was coined Fall 2013) when many painters experimented with splash colors. White was found to be one of the most powerful as the enlightened tutor makes the entire combo searchable and allows you to run specialized artifact and enchantments recruiter couldn't normally fetch.

Seth Roncoroni is the godfather of the white splash and has written extensively on the theory behind why you should splash as well as personal thoughts on card choices. Here are two posts that all aspiring shortcake players should familiarize themselves with and take to heart:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25661-Deck-Imperial-Painter&p=785907&viewfull=1#post785907

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25661-Deck-Imperial-Painter&p=836366&viewfull=1#post836366


Shortcake really took off and started getting noticed on the national scene around January 2014. After more than a year of trying to convince me of white's benefits, Seth converted me from my mono-red faithless looting build to enlightened tutor. I immediately noticed how much faster and more consistent the white-splash was compared to mono-red. While it seems strange that such a small addition of only a few plateau's and tutors would drastically change the deck, it significantly reduced the amount of durdling and boosted the harder matchups for the decks such as elves and storm. The hardest part for any aspiring shortcaker is pre-emptive tutoring before dropping a blood moon, experimenting with tutoring for the combo compared to a specific hate piece, and when to fetch out a plateau so as not to get destroyed by wasteland.

After toiling away and learning every in and out of the deck, I was lucky enough to top 8 some major events and get shortcake the recognition it deserved. From there, the white splash has been able to put up serious results in some of the country's largest tournaments.

Reports and finishes:

SCG Baltimore January 26, 2014
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=62808
Jack aka Kapn Cook -- 5/402 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25661-Deck-Imperial-Painter&p=787045&viewfull=1#post787045)
Seth aka Sroncor -- 36/402 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25661-Deck-Imperial-Painter&p=786457&viewfull=1#post786457)

Glen Burnie MD February 9, 2014
Seth -- 8/114 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25661-Deck-Imperial-Painter/page49)

Grand Prix Paris February 15-16, 2014
http://wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gppar14/welcome
Jean-Mary Accart aka Lejay -- 5/1587

Tales of Adventure BOM Trial February 22, 2014
Jack -- 1/173 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27659-Slinging-Blue-Sky-at-Tales-of-Adventure)

SCG Seattle March 16, 2014
Brenden Mcbain -- 23/320

SCG D.C. August 24, 2014
Sean Park -- 13/285

SCG Somerset August 31, 2014
Jack Kitchen -- 4/443 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28516-Baking-Shortcake-in-Jersey)

SCG Minneapolis October 26, 2014
Daniel Rude -- 15/247 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25661-Deck-Imperial-Painter&p=842523&viewfull=1#post842523)

SCG Baltimore IQ, March 2, 2015
Jack -- 1/230 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29261-Baking-a-Blue-Ribbon-Cake-in-Baltimore&p=870636#post870636)

Mythic Games 2K, March 5, 2016
Hollywood-- 4/47 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30469-Report-Top-4-with-Imperial-Painter-Mythic-Games-2K-Legacy)

MTGO Legacy Challenge, May 14, 2016
Jack -- 1/60+ (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30682-Shortcake-Maketh-Man-Double-Eternal-Challenge-Top-8)


-------------------------------------------------------------

As a small history reminder for myself and to monitor the deck's evolution, I've tracked the major changes to my personal build since I started painting back in May 2012. My version of IP is Goblin Welder heavy to better abuse grindstone and the variety of artifacts we run. Welder is a lightning rod and allows you win through countermagic and chalice at 1. Running 3 welders allows me to naturally draw one and then recruit for one later when the first gets killed. Faithless looting was initially used to increase deck synergy with welder, but the versatility of e tutor and its subtle tricks outweighed looting's midgame. Chrome moxen were also dropped to decrease the decks variance over the years. Turn 1 Magus of the Moon is not as game-winning as it used to be, so a singleton is ideal.

While it still happens, this version of Painter relies much less on the pure beatdown aspect to win and more on Welder decision trees and subtlety to gain advantages before assembling the combo.

changes:

Pre 4/1/2013: To many changes to count. First tournament list: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?10090-Deck-Imperial-Painter&p=663989&viewfull=1#post663989. No fetches or more cities because I hadn't bought them yet.

4/1/2013: MB: -2 Chrome Mox, +1 Lotus Petal, +1 Red Fetch
6/9/2013: MB: -1 Mountain, +1 Red Fetch
7/8/2013: MB: -3 Lightning Bolt, +2 Phyrexian Revoker, +1 REB. SB: -1 Revoker, +1 Koth
8/1/2013: MB: -1 Phyrexian Metamorph, +1 Magus. SB: -1 Magus, +1 Siege Gang Commander (legend rule change)

Switched to white:

9/21/2013: MB: -1 Magus, -1 REB, +2 E bridge, +2 enlightened tutor, -2 faithless looting. SB: - 1 SGC, -1 Martyr, -2 E bridge, +4 Firebolt, +1 Trinisphere, +1 ethersworn canonist, +1 ratchet bomb, +1 REB
2/1/2014: MB: Add 5th fetch, go to 4 basics. SB: -1 Tormod's Crypt, +1 Rest in Peace

8/10/2014-10/30/2014: MB: -1 revoker, -1 sensei top. +1 ee/ratchet, +1 daretti. SB: -1 ratchet, -1 sword, +1 daretti, +1 assemble the legion.

Post Khans of Tarkir aka Treasure Cruise: Still tweaking. Lots of variations current one listed below/

other cards that have seen play at some point: sword of light and shadow, pyrite spellbomb, koth of the hammer, ratchet bomb, martyr of ashes, leyline of sanctity, lightning bolt, siege gang commander, phyrexian metamorph, faithless looting, Helm of Obedience


Edit: As we all know Sensei's Divining Top was banned in April 2017. The loss of top was so huge to the deck. I tried out various new builds but honestly nothing really can replace it and after being able to play with the top and how the deck was built for super quick combo and consistency I just can't go back to the more stompy-variance style of mono-red or even small white splash. So basically the list below is how I had the deck at the time of the top ban, and I feel like the maindeck was perfect.


---------------------------------------------------

Strawberry Shortcake

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Plateau
1 Great Furnace
2 wooded foothills
3 bloodstained mire
4 Mountain

2 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Lotus Petal
1 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder

4 Blood Moon

4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives

1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance

4 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Enlightened tutor


---------------------------------------------------





The board during the SDT meta

3 Lightning Bolt
2 Pyroclasm
1 Duergar Hedge-Mage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 ensnaring bridge
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage



A few notes:
A) I originally included 1 copy of Spellskite and while it is awesome to have in play, I don't like recruiting for it. 90% of the time, fetching out another Painter or a Welder serves the same purpose. If I could draw the singleton copy in my hand every single time I would play one.

B) Firebolts are in the side because I hate drawing burn against Show and Tell/Storm decks. You bring in the burn when you need it and firebolt is also card advantage compared to more efficient spells such as lightning bolt. Yes, five mana is a lot for flashback, but with IP's ability to stall it comes up a lot more than you would think. Plus you can grindstone yourself to put firebolts in the yard. It's really more of a preference thing, but having 3-4 burn spells somewhere in the 75 is optimal.

C) Assemble the legion and Koth are the primary alternate win-cons for the deck. Helm of Obedience appears every now and then when you want to run 3+ rest in peace. Legion is a tutorable way to eventually win the game under a bridge while providing a steady stream of chump blockers, while koth is harder to remove via spells, but ideally you'll need a bridge in play to stall. Alternate win-cons are still a flex spot and it really depends on what kind of meta and/or sideboard cards you expect out of your opponent.



Seth's Current Shortcake List


4 Imperial Recruiters
4 Painter’s servant
3 SSG
2 goblin Welder
1 Jaya Ballard
2 magus of the Moon

4 Blood Moon
4 Grindstone
6 blast effects
3 e tutor
2 SDT
2 lotus petal
1 ensnaring Bridge
2 Koth
1 EE

4 Mountains
5 fetch lands(onslaught of course)
2 plateau
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tombs

Side
4 Firebolt
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Cannonist
1 Trinisphere
4 RiP
1 helm of obedience
1 Viashino Heretic
1 blast effect

Overall I like this list. The Koth’s back maindecked are a new addition and I think that spot can be many things pending your meta. Adding a canonist, mass removal dude, additional welder, Magus of the moon, or even additional blast effects or ensnaring bridges may be correct in your meta. I think this basically has the core 52-53 cards and then you can modify as tolerated. For me those cards were the 2 koth, 1 additional etutor, 1 ensnaring bridge, 1 magus of the moon, 1 ee, and then an additional mana source to take my overall count to 24. EE continues to be randomly strong and never dead. I advise most to test it out. I would not say it should be part of that 52-53 card core, but it is as close as you can come to something that is a random answer to so much and the best catch all this side of Jaya.

It feels tight and I know it is basically very similar to Jack’s list , at least at the core. We have some different views on how to handle and approach problems which lead to some slight variations in the other 5 cards or so. I would say his results speak for themselves and I would advise most to follow his lead. The board remains largely unchanged these days. I could see the argument for another taxing effect and canonist continues to amaze me as the format has changed. A 2/2 split of canonist and trinisphere could work. I know in times past I was against tutoring for combo hate against tendrils list. But with them moving away from the epic storm and more towards slower past in flames list, I have found this to be a good strategy. I have really liked the canonist even against burn as they basically have to kill it as it just slows them down unlike a lot of our other non combo cards and 2 of them and the rip/helm combo sideboard in nicely when you remove moon effects and Jaya in that match up. I still love firebolt and wouldn’t cut it even as the meta changes. Graveyard strategies are a real thing as is dredge so some graveyard hate should be included. RiP is still the best hoser available and works nicely with the combo. Heretic is a favorite of mine, but he should probably be another blast effect or a mass removal of some sort.

Keep up the good work guys. Unfortunately the deck is red, and wizards hates red and the design space is limited so I imagine there will be few to no real changes to the deck. Just small changes to modify those last 6-7 spots in the list to adjust to the meta. Remember the deck only exist as a foil to the format in general with an oops I win two card combo.

Keep painting kids.

Seth

[Kap'n Cook]

Mono-red Variants

1) Drew's list: See above

2) Jandax's list: Control

7 Mountain
1 Great Furnace
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Grindstone
4 Painter's Servant
1 Lotus Petal
4 Blood Moon
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
2 Goblin Welder
1 Koth of the Hammer
3 Ensnaring Bridge

Sideboard:
4 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Sudden Demise
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Koth of the Hammer
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Martyr of Ashes
1 Manic Vandal

While on the surface the deck is nearly the same as all the other Imperial Painter lists, the big change comes in the sideboard. Gone from the main are simple 1 for 1s like lightning bolt and card disadvantage like Faithless Looting or the extra fast Chrome Moxen. The board It is geared toward stopping Elves, Graveyard and Combo strategies by playing lock pieces that shut down the entire strategies. Grafdigger's cage is arguably the best hate against Dredge and Reanimator and severely hampers Elves. It does detract from your own Welding of Painter's and Revokers, but the overall effect outweighs that downside. Maindeck ensnaring bridges have largely become the norm for their ability to just steal game 1s. The last parts of the sideboard are all large sweepers or utility creatures. Sudden demise wipes out tribal while synergizing with Painter if you need to kill off a bunch of different color creatures. Martyr of ashes plays the recruitable role.


3) The Starcity Net-Deck Special (aka lets try to sell some Chandras)

4 Painter's Servant
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Spellskite
1 Goblin Welder
4 Imperial Recruiter
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage

9 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Arid Mesa
4 City of Traitors

2 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Blood Moon
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast

Sideboard
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Manic Vandal
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast


This list was back from September 2013 but many here agree that the list is not optimal. Chandra is a source of card advantage, but all the bridges are in the side, which makes little sense. If Chandra is untouched, you win the game. Obviously this list did very well and Painter is one of the best decks when running hot, but it can be tweaked and made better. Only 3 fetchlands for Sensei Top raises some questions too.

[sroncor1]

I'm proud of you guys for making progress with the deck. I know holywood would be happy too. I'll try and not be a drag on the thread:) and yes that is the happiest I can be



Seth

[Moomba]

Thank you for starting this, I'm also currently trying to finish my Imperial Painter deck atm (1/4 Recuiters, should be done soon). Looking forward to discussion with you guys.

[Moomba]

How do you guys feel about Gitaxian Probe? The knowledge it gives, while only costing 2 life and replacing itself all in one is amazing. Only problem I keep running into is their are already so many other choices that could be made for this deck, I'm not sure where I would start to think of replacing for this.

[GoblinZ]

How do you guys feel about Gitaxian Probe? The knowledge it gives, while only costing 2 life and replacing itself all in one is amazing. Only problem I keep running into is their are already so many other choices that could be made for this deck, I'm not sure where I would start to think of replacing for this.

the decklist is really solid with slight variation right now, I donnot see there is a place for probe. The reason why I play this deck is not because it beats blue but also because of its consistency. probe is far worse than looting and it is a little painful.

[GoblinZ]

Awesome primer, thx for your job.

And I would make some different argument. I can be sure maverick is good mu for us, I played maverick and imperial painter both before. maverick lacks spells to kill the painter and it plays a lot of non basic land. Only thalia is annoying but is is not the decisive factor to prevent us from combo.

I strongly recommend add spellskite in the main, it is really crucial for jund match up.

I personally prefer relic to crypt. I know crypt is much more efficient against dredge and reanimator but on the one hand dredge and reanimator tend to be rare to see in my meta and on the other hand dredge is not an unfavorable mu for us. I side relic against RUG very often and maybe side one or two against jund for cycling and buying some time.

Against sneakshow, I add 3 bridge, 2 revoker, 1 blast (I have 7 in the main) and 3 relic cutting 4 burn spells, 4 blood moon and one magus. I donnot know how much relecant thorn is, but I donnot want to give up the combo. Maybe I am wrong here.

As for ballard, I side it out quite often against jund and Rug, it is too slow. I hesitate to cut it for blade and miracle is still dominating.

Any thoughts?

[phoenix4]

How do you guys feel about Gitaxian Probe? The knowledge it gives, while only costing 2 life and replacing itself all in one is amazing. Only problem I keep running into is their are already so many other choices that could be made for this deck, I'm not sure where I would start to think of replacing for this.

I've experimented a little with the G-Probe, and while it can be of service as to look OP's hand for counters, it makes Chrome Mox - if you're running them - a bit more bad, since you're probably cutting some red cards for the probes.

Now, I started reading the old thread, and I was just wondering... Why the new thread? Is it to simplify the iPainter thread and give it a new start, before the printing of the judge foil promo? :smile:

[phoenix4]

Now, I'm kinda unfamiliar with the american meta, as well as the european meta, but I'm guessing we're seeing a lot of nonbasic manabases...

So with that in mind.. Do you feel that the count on moon effects should go to 7 or take the full 8 (Both Moons and magus') or do you prefer to lower the count in order to have more mana available?

[Malchar]

The moons are great, but I think it's fine to have less actual moon effects in the deck. They are usually bad in multiples, and sometimes they're completely dead. With one magus and 4 blood moons, you actually have 9 moon sources when you add in the 4 recruiters. I feel like this is probably the ideal amount.

[GoblinZ]

I brougt imperial painter to a small tournament today. Since I have not joined any tournament for a long time, the meta here is unknown to me. The result is 4-2, ended with top 4. here is a brief report

round one （2:0 vs merfolk)

On the play, I have grindstone, bloodmoon, reb and several lands in my hand, not good but I choose to keep. he played turn two lord of atlantis, I kill the gay with reb and resolve grindstone. It seems he did not have so many creatures, I fowed my bloodmoon for his wasteland and mutavault, I then drawed a painter just grinded him out.

-4 blood moon + 3 bridge +1 pyroblast

game two is very fast. he tapped out to cast Merrow Reejerey, I comboed next turn under protection of reb

round two (0:2 vs sneakshow）

both of us mulliganed to six, and my openning was still not good, I counter his show and tell, but he cast sneakattack next. I had
nothing to stop him

-4 burn spells -4 blood moon -1 magus +3 bridge +3 relic +2 revoker

[GoblinZ]

I tryed to post my report, but there is something wrong with the system and I did not save what I just wrote...

2-0 vs merfolk 0-2 vs sneakshow 2-0 vs sneakshow 2-0 vs jund

top 8 2-1 vs miracle top 0-2 vs 4c blade control because I suffered mana screwed in both games

[DrewliusMaximus]

Nice GoblinZ. What's you list?

@Moomba - I have never felt compelled to try Gitaxian Probe because its effect doesn't seem mission-critical and I don't know what it would replace. On the other hand, if there were enough Phyrexian-blue-mana cards to support a weak blue splash and inclusion of FOW's, I might try that!

@GoblinZ - I would have no problem with Spellskite in the MD if I expected a meta heavy on Jund/Burn and light on combo decks. Spellskite must have helped you 2-0 Jund in yesterday's tournament. However, Spellskite can be a dead card in some matchups since it has no offense so I take him out of the SB for now.

Regarding Relic vs Crypt, I play Crypt over Relic in my list for one major reason: Crypt interacts well with Welder and Relic does not. Not only does Crypt leave my own GY intact, but I can recur Crypt with Welder.

@phoenix4 - I started the new thread to try and consolidate iPainter information, hopefully to encourage more experimentation with the deck.

Regarding Moon effects, Malchar pretty much summed it up. I'd also add that it's important to differentiate between Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon - they are not at all the same. Pitching an SSG to play a first turn Blood Moon is a good idea against MANY decks whether you're on the play or draw. Doing the same thing for a Magus of the Moon could easily be a wasteful play against Jund or RUG or on the draw against decks that can just float a mana to remove Magus.

I got to play in the local tourney yesterday and Top 4'd with my current list. I've missed the last three Saturdays at Asgard Games (http://www.asgardgames.net/) but during that time the turnout has apparently jumped to 20+ regularly...good to see in Texas!

[GoblinZ]

[QUOTE=DrewliusMaximus;709090]Nice GoblinZ. What's you list?

@GoblinZ - I would have no problem with Spellskite in the MD if I expected a meta heavy on Jund/Burn and light on combo decks. Spellskite must have helped you 2-0 Jund in yesterday's tournament. However, Spellskite can be a dead card in some matchups since it has no offense so I take him out of the SB for now.

Regarding Relic vs Crypt, I play Crypt over Relic in my list for one major reason: Crypt interacts well with Welder and Relic does not. Not only does Crypt leave my own GY intact, but I can recur Crypt with Welder.

my decklist is like this, it is a kind of oldschool.

1 welder
1 spellskite
1 ballard
2 magus
4 recruiter
4 painter
4 ssg
1 metamorphe

2 bolt
2 magma jet
7 blasts

4 moon
3 top
4 grindstone
2 chrome mox

8 sol land
2 fetch
8 mountain

sb: 3 bridge 3 relic 4 thorn 2 revoker 1 blast 2 rachet bomb

spellskite really helped yesterday in game 2 against jund. I cast turn one spellskite and turn two painter. he thoughtseized my moon turn one and hymned me turn two, but I drawed a grandstone comboing for the win. My meta always lacks combo and is full of blue decks and others like jund and maverick, so spellskite is never a dead card for me. Even against combo, spellskite can change the target of their bounce post board, but it is indeed a dead card in most situations

I thought 4 city always hurts myself, so I want to cut one and I also considering to cut one magus and one blast for one looting and two mountain. I think looting would help in mid or late games. In fact, against miracle in game one yesterday, he killed and countered three painter but did not draw any threat, I just ground myself without top slowly for I believed the trash in the rest of my deck was far more than what I needed at that time.

As for the chrome mox, I know you have replaced with lotus petal, but I think some permanent mana source may be useful and I am not sure whether I should cut them for lotus petal and another basic land.

[Yonthan]

Actually is Sneak & Show and Jund a very tough up for Imperial Painter? Like in Sneak & Show, they will try to combo off as soon as possible, and the milling plan is not working to them due to the stupid 15/15. For Jund, our bad moon plan might not work well because they can bolt our magus away.

I am not too experienced with this deck, but would like to ask for all your opinion on these matchups (like whats the game plan and what kind of hand you would like to keep?). Thanks in advanced! :smile:

[phoenix4]

I just finished 4th place at a GP Trial for Strasbourg yesterday, and while it may not be the biggest of tournaments, it shure gave me a revived hope of playing the deck at GP Strasbourg..

Decklist for my deck + the rest of top8: http://mtgpulse.com/event/12502#174814

Out of all the games I played, I only activated Grindstone once!! The rest of the time it was a turn 1 moon effect, and then pure beats with critters all the way... I'm actually considering boarding out all 4 grindstones in most matches now, since people doesn't seem to be prepared for a little beating in games 2 and 3 against this deck :D

But looking at the SB, how do you guys think it should look at Strasbourg? Personally, I think it lacks a little anti eldrazi hate, but what do you think? :)

[Kap'n Cook]

@phoenix

Why would you take out grindstones in most matchups? I can understand taking them out against Emrakul decks.
You are running 7 moons with 7 acceleration pieces so the high number of turn 1's is certainly understandable. My only concern is post-board after you take out grindstones what happens if your moon gets countered or discarded or you play a deck that doesn't care about a moon in play?

@yonthan

I will eventually get around to posting matchup descriptions in the 2nd post of the primer after Drew's intro. Then we can debate whether or not my analysis is right haha.


@Drew

one question I have for you is regarding your Stoneblade board plans. I am curious as to why you want to bring in 4 ensnaring bridges. In my experience the only thing they reliable stop is batterskull. Lingering souls and stoneforge can attack the entire time unless you are playing every turn with 0 cards in hand (which if that is your strategy then bridges make more sense). Painter controls their pro-swords quite well. Jitte can pump the attacker after attacks so bridge doesn't do much there. I have liked keeping the burn in postboard to kill the stoneforge as it slows them down by a few turns or to just snipe a jace. I have liked keeping metamorph in as well. Once you copy their batterskull you basically win.

[GoblinZ]

@cook

I agree to you here. If I play blade control against painter, I may side out batterskull after game one.

[DrewliusMaximus]

GoblinZ, if you drop to 3 City, you might consider adding a Petal and running the 2 Mox, 1 Petal arrangement in phoenix4's list. I have liked Petal as a 1-of to complement the Stompy. The 2 Bolt + 2 Jet appeals to my play style since you get a little more deck manipulation. I ran the same thing in the MD a couple of years ago and put the other 2 Bolt in the SB.

I also like your list Claus as a way to go more all-in on the Moon plan. It makes sense that the MD Welder plan wouldn't make the cut with that approach. Dork beatdown after a first-turn Moon is legit. On Saturday I won a game with turn-one Moon followed by a single Spirit Guide (to be fair, I know I had a Top at some point and probably played some other stuff I can't remember, so it might have been like a seven or eight-turn kill instead of a full ten turns). Also, since you are all-in on Moon and Magus, the two MD Revokers look like they'd work well in there.

Like Kap'n said, I'm not sure about boarding Grindstones out indiscriminately with most the lists, but I think I get your point. Opponents do board in based on the Grindstone plan most of the time, and you could enact a SB strategy that readily replaces Grindstones in most matchups. Kind of interesting actually. If I even started thinking about that, I would begin with Eldrazi decks in mind since that's where Grindstone is weakest.

Re: the Sneak and Show matchup - this is where I really want a full set of Ensnaring Bridges. I have actually been pretty happy with the post-board Eldrazi matchup in most cases (Sneak and Show, Turbo-Eldrazi, etc.) with all-out Bridge plan out of the SB, which is facilitated with lots of deck manipulation. For Sneak and Show and Omniscience decks I also like Thorn of Amethyst.

Kap'n, your Stoneblade SB philosophy sounds good. I actually haven't tried that because the Bridge plan has worked fairly well so far, but I will have to test more. With a full set of Tops, many times I don't mind going down to 0-2 cards-in-hand under a Bridge. I have typically bet that the Bridge will shut down their beatdown while blue-hate and Revoker handle Jace and I assemble the combo. As for the 1/1 creatures, I can usually block and kill most of those, or kill them with Jaya. Still, I'll have to try some more stuff out.

[phoenix4]

In the 6 rounds I played yesterday, I only saw the petal twice and once it came into play being all bad. :(

But I'm hoping that it'll prove worth while in the future, seing you can play sol land on turn 1, removing for the red mana, needed for the first moon effect. :)

But in all the games I played yesterday (I believe 14 games), I hit that Moon effect in 12 of the games... I'm not saying my list is the best at hitting that moon effect, but after last night... I'm very positive towards the biggest tournament on danish ground this year in 10 days time... Hopefully with 90+ players :)

[Kap'n Cook]

In the 6 rounds I played yesterday, I only saw the petal twice and once it came into play being all bad. :(

But I'm hoping that it'll prove worth while in the future, seing you can play sol land on turn 1, removing for the red mana, needed for the first moon effect. :)

But in all the games I played yesterday (I believe 14 games), I hit that Moon effect in 12 of the games... I'm not saying my list is the best at hitting that moon effect, but after last night... I'm very positive towards the biggest tournament on danish ground this year in 10 days time... Hopefully with 90+ players :)

Good luck with your tourney. As long as you get paired against the top tier decks you will dominate with all the moons. Just pray that burn doesn't sit down across from you lol

[phoenix4]

Good luck with your tourney. As long as you get paired against the top tier decks you will dominate with all the moons. Just pray that burn doesn't sit down across from you lol

Well, I concidering 4 leylines in the board... ;)

[jandax]

Since this thread has been restarted several times:

Have we squashed the Witchbane Orb vs Leyline of Sanctity arguement? I play the Welder version of the deck, and thus play Orbs so that I don't have to mulligan as much. It'd be great to hear input from others who've played with the card.

[phoenix4]

Since this thread has been restarted several times:

Have we squashed the Witchbane Orb vs Leyline of Sanctity arguement? I play the Welder version of the deck, and thus play Orbs so that I don't have to mulligan as much. It'd be great to hear input from others who've played with the card.

Beats me, but jandax, throw us a list? :)

BTW, Are you going to strasbourg?

[Kich867]

I was toying around with the idea of trying out a mono blue painter deck, with essentially the same concept: 6-8 blast effects, forces, Tezzeret the Seeker, artifact toolkit. Has anyone actually tried this prior with any sort of success?

I felt like the deck wanted to do too many things and it was hard for me to narrow it down, but Snapcaster Mage, Clique, Painter's Servant, and Trinket Mage seemed like a pretty awesome setup. The idea being that you can tutor a lot of pinpoint hate cards, or tutor a grindstone, you name Red and have 6-8 + 4x Snapcasters to vindicate everything you want. You could also use Tezzeret the Seeker to either: pump and then win next turn or tutor the missing combo piece into play..

Maybe I'll fiddle around with it.

[Esper3k]

I've always liked the UR painter lists myself since you can run both Imperial Recruiter and Trinket Mage so you have tutors for either piece, plus Recruiter can get Trinket Mage if you need a Grindstone instead.

However, it does lessen the explosiveness the mono red version gives not to mention the fun of just winning the game off a turn 1 Blood Moon / Magus.

[Kich867]

I've always liked the UR painter lists myself since you can run both Imperial Recruiter and Trinket Mage so you have tutors for either piece, plus Recruiter can get Trinket Mage if you need a Grindstone instead.

However, it does lessen the explosiveness the mono red version gives not to mention the fun of just winning the game off a turn 1 Blood Moon / Magus.

Like I know it's not nearly as potent but blue does have Back to Basics

[The Duressed]

To me the problem with the blue builds is how utterly worthless blue blast is without a painter in play. It pretty much doesn't do anything at all, whereas red blast by itself is still frequently useful.

[phoenix4]

To me the problem with the blue builds is how utterly worthless blue blast is without a painter in play. It pretty much doesn't do anything at all, whereas red blast by itself is still frequently useful.

I agree. The only thing fun with the blue version, is to throw in B2B.. and many counterspells :)

Imperial painter offers so much more interaction (unless you resolve a blood moon!) :laugh:

[DrewliusMaximus]

In the 6 rounds I played yesterday, I only saw the petal twice and once it came into play being all bad. :(

But I'm hoping that it'll prove worth while in the future, seing you can play sol land on turn 1, removing for the red mana, needed for the first moon effect. :)

Phoenix, in your build maybe the Moxen are enough and Petal is overkill? You don't play Welder so Petal won't provide synergy there either.


Since this thread has been restarted several times:

Have we squashed the Witchbane Orb vs Leyline of Sanctity arguement? I play the Welder version of the deck, and thus play Orbs so that I don't have to mulligan as much. It'd be great to hear input from others who've played with the card.

What other re-started iPainter threads are you referring to?

Re: Orb vs. Leyline, I don't like playing the mulligan game personally so I avoid Leylines of any kind unless I feel like there's no other choice.


I've always liked the UR painter lists myself since you can run both Imperial Recruiter and Trinket Mage so you have tutors for either piece, plus Recruiter can get Trinket Mage if you need a Grindstone instead.

However, it does lessen the explosiveness the mono red version gives not to mention the fun of just winning the game off a turn 1 Blood Moon / Magus.

I do agree with you Esper - a single Trinket Mage completes the Recruiter engine for this deck. But to support it I think you need 3-4 Petals and a decent number of Fetchlands with a Dual or two. And this pretty much means you have to drop the number of SSG's and lower the amount of creatures in your deck, so in addition to the potential color requirement probelm you are more vulnerable to Wasteland and Stifle and less capable of surprise dork-beatdown. Still, it's always worth considering because T Mage finds the combo and a bunch of other stuff.

Re: mono-blue Painter, The Duressed is right. Also, blue is a target for hate so I wouldn't choose it given a reasonable alternative. The last time I tried playing a blue deck, I ran into Choke every other match.

[Esper3k]

Red Blasts are also inherently better than blue blasts due to the prevalence of blue in Eternal formats so you have a much better chance of getting use out of them even without a Painter in play.

[Kap'n Cook]

Since everyone loves Painter reports here is mine from Starcity DC yesterday. I ended up 28th place at 6-2-1 ID'ing round 9.

I ended up putting Jaya back maindeck over the revoker because I was concerned about crazy stuff going down. I didn't have my 4th white-border pyroblast and Seth was too busy doing surgery on testicles haha or some shit all morning so he didn't have one for me when he showed up so I just played a 3-3 blast split. Everything else the same.

Round 1 vs UW Stoneforge

Game one he played out a stoneforge getting a batterskull then I dropped a moon on his two duals and went beats. Recruiter got Jaya to deal with any nonsense that might occur.

Game two I believe I tried to drop a turn 2 moon that got countered or something got countered tapping me out. Turn 3 he played a geist of traft that just destroyed my ass. Both games 1 and 2 were completely one sided.

Game three I opened up my 7 and 6 with acceleration pieces, filter, and moons but no land which I would have kept in a second. I mulled to 5 and kept Welder, mountain, gstone, gstone, looting. I played out a welder that met swords I believe and then played a stone and looted into the 3rd grindstone. I dumped both keeping a sensei top. He kept a slower, removal heavy hand that wasn't applying much pressure so I was able to start looting away the chaff and find better things. I played a painter that got swords, and then my grindstone was disenchanted. I fetched to clear top and topdecked the 4th grindstone lol. It was met by a topdecked detention sphere and by then he had started getting stoneforges out and equipping and jitte eventually finished me off. I brought in 2 ensnaring bridge but the one I saw got countered the last turn before lethal. Awesome dude to play against and it was a lighthearted match so I wasn't too down about losing round 1.

0-1


Round 2 vs MUD

He won the roll and played Dust bowl, go. The only decks that I knew of that played dustbowl were serious UW control decks or various stax-type decks. Either way I dropped a turn 1 moon and said go. Over the next few turns he dropped a bunch of lands and mana rocks and had a ton of mana to cast whatever he drew. We're talking like emrakul mana even with the moon out. I was drawing pretty much only lands although I did get painter, jaya online before it was shut down by a Phyrexian Revoker. Then Karn, Liberated came out and nuked painter but I drew a bolt to deal with Karn. A second Karn came down and blew up 2 things before dying. During those turns 2 wurmcoil engines were played as well as a Platinum Emperion. I had to chump taking 14 damage down to 4 life when I drew a recruiter and had the awesome idea of getting metamorph copying Platinum. That bought me a few turns before a THIRD Karn came out and pillaged my metamorph. Crazy game.

Game 2 was over really quick. I mulled to 6 and had a quick turn 3 combo

Game 3 ended up being really crazy too. We both started out building up resources and taking tomb damage here and there. He got an early ratchet bomb to deal with my welder but kill his voltaic key as well. Metalworkers joined the fray but there weren't too many artifacts in hand to play. I luckily got an ensnaring bridge out and hid behind that as there were chalices at 1 and 2 flying around, a steel hellkite that couldn't attack, a revoker on grindstone etc. Eventually though he drew a Karn and exiled a card from my hand so I just ditched a chrome mox. Then he vindicated my ancient tomb but I had been holding extra lands for some reason I can't remember now. Luckily I drew metamorph and played it copying revoker naming Karn before he blew up my ensnaring bridge. That basically won me the game as I was able to find Manic Vandal and blow up chalice at 1, play a welder, and then start welding his board so I could use my grindstone. I kept milling myself looking for painter at his eot but I drew a recruiter to get painter and played it into chalice at 2 so I could weld it back later. Won the next turn.

1-1


Round 3 vs ANT

Not knowing what he was playing I kept mountain, bolt, 2 blast, Recruiter, looting and maybe blood moon? on the play. He led turn one delta into swamp into foil duress so I just assumed storm. He took looting and I bolted end step. I drew another mountain and played both and countered a cantrip or something before getting ad nauseumed.

Game 2 I kept a non-leyline hand with crypt, some blasts, grindstone, welder and lands. I used the blasts to stall and crypt to keep off past in flames if necessary to get painter and win.

Game 3 was leyline and combo pieces with 1 land and chrome mox. My third mana was ssg so I did it on his upkeep and it got echoing truthed. Welded out painter for top so i wouldn't have to replay painter. I drew for the turn and it was a blast. I looked top 3 for a double land but an ssg 3 down. I said go and he actually cast rituals and cast ad nauseum but i welded the painter back in to counter it. Drew ssg and won.

2-1


Round 4 vs White Stax (wtf but nice guy who top 32d as well)

Game one I keep a hand with a bunch of mana and recruiter and top which actually turned out to be pretty good. Except on the play he went turn 1 trinisphere, turn 2 smokestack, turn 3 bottled cloister. I had played recruiter turn 2 and a grindstone but eventually the smokestack on 2 and card advantage wore me down. So I allowed my board to empty and refill my hand until his smokestack died. Luckily no crucible or actual clock for him so I started out playing lands and dudes again. He played another smokestack so I let my board die again. He then played a third one and had gotten a mishras factory out so it was game over for me.
I think I sided something like: out 2 blood moon, 3 bolt, for 3 bridge, 1 manic vandal, 1 magus of the moon. Not too sure because its stax, when do you see that.

So game 2 I started out with a turn one grindstone and turn 2 recruiter for painter while i had 2 blasts in hand. He played a turn 2 trinisphere. I think i just ran out painter anyways and then he oblivion ringed it. In retrospect I should have just waited until I had 6 mana to play painter and blow up oblivion ring if he had played it on grindstone or just combo out since he only had permanent based disruption. So painter was gone so I started sensei topping and grindstoning myself on my turn since he had a sundial of the infinite out and I didn't want him to be able to activate it. He played another oblivion ring and nabbed my grindstone. I was trying to go aggro and I got him to single digits when he played a Gideon. He made my recruiter and spirit guide attack him so he could swing for 6 and repeat. I played revoker naming gideon to continue beats since he hadn't found a mishra factory yet either. But he had drawn a third Oblivion ring and sniped revoker. I was topping and trying not to kill myself with ancient tomb and still play blockers for gideon. I found a magus but had to use it to block gideon while I attacked with spirit guide past his factories. Magus died and the next turn I couldnt find anything and died with my opponent at 3 life. Maybe not attack with ssg and block gideon with it and hope I can draw runner runner creature? Not sure.
But still. Stax is sweet so I'm not too upset about losing to it. Plus since top8 was gone now I could just play at ease and focus on just playing well for top 32.

2-2


Round 5 vs Junk

Game 1 he played out 2 fetches without cracking while I had a moon in hand so I played a recruiter fetching recruiter not wanting him to know I had a game-ending moon and allow him to fetch basics. His turn he tapped out for a liliana and made me sac recruiter so I played blood moon on his 3 non basics. From there I just went jungle beats with the other recruiter, simian, and the jaya i tutored.

Game 2 he played turn one duress on moon and turn two bob off two duals. Luckily my turn 2 I drew Magus of the Moon and played it. My draws were terrible though and he was able to cast batterskull on 5 lands to stall my beatdown+bob damage and I couldn't find a grindstone or a backup moon. He got a deathrite and sylvan library out to draw millions of cards and decay my magus and start dropping creatures and removing painters. Of course after this happens I draw two straight grindstones so I play one and sandbag the other just in case. O-ring on stone. I had a recruiter as well so I get a painter and he plays swords so I blast the oring with enough mana to activate but he decays painter in response. I start chumping batterskull and he gets a jitte out. My hand at this point is 2nd grindstone, and another recruiter and a blast. I get the 3rd painter and play it and he attacks with jitte on bob and bskull while Im at 9. I know I would have to deal with 2 possible deathrite activations even if I milled him so i block bob and skull with 2 recruiters. Plus this allows me to use an ancient tomb if i draw it. My turn I play grindstone. He decays painter in response so I blasted the oring with the stone under it. Comes back and I mill out. I had enough mana to cast stone twice and blast so it didn't matter

3-2


Round 6 vs Dredge (friend from store plus the guy I went with to Edison who top8d)

We both obviously know what the other is playing. I kept a painter, 2 blast, top, looting hand to deal with early nonsense on his part. Turn one kept up blast in case of breakthrough or study. Therapied himself turn 1 to bin dredger. Turn 2 play painter and counter his breakthrough turn 2. Turn 3 I play top and look for grindstone but dont find it so I blast his coliseum. I had looted away the 2nd and 3rd painter and with the top saw the 4th so I blocked an Ichorid and take some more damage. I played the 4th painter off a city of traitors knowing I had one more turn before I die so I played to my out of playing and spinning top for the 3rd card down to be a grindstone but it wasn't

Game 2 was just turn 1 welder crypt with more artifacts on the way. He claimed a crypt but I drew another and just chilled until I drew the combo.

Game 3 was pretty much the dirtiest draw of all time and I felt pretty bad since it was a friend. Gstone, Painter, Crypt, mountain, 2 blast, monkey. Draw mountain play stone and crypt. He claimed the stone and I draw tomb. Play painter with both blasts as backup. Next turn draw grindstone and blast his ancient grudge.

4-2


Round 7 vs Tinfins (another balitimore guy)

I basically get turn 1'd since he draws 21 cards but can't continue and therapies me down to 4 cards (furnace, tomb, blast, blood moon or something). He was at 1 life so if i draw bolt i win but nope

Game 2 I play turn 1 blood moon and crypt and ride that to victory until I grind myself into painter and weld. After the match he said he had turn 1 if I didn't drop moon.

Game 3 I kept 2 sol, monkey, moon, bridge, welder, something. He probed and thoughtseized off a bayou (abrupt decay side I assumed) and took moon. I played bridge turn 1. Next turn he thoughtseized away the something card and I drew another monkey so I played welder and began the beats. He didn't have another land so he just kept passing for a while. Eventually i drew a chrome mox and imprinted a spare welder and started blasting cantrips he played off a chrome mox. I drew recruiter and got revoker to name chrome mox (shutting off my only red source too) and kept beating. He decayed revoker and brainstormed but I had lucksacked again and drawn another blast. I kept the welder/recruiter beats going and they get there.

5-2


So at this point Seth and I had the same exact result every single match so we were always a few matches away each other, getting as close as matches next to each other but luckily we never played each other and dealt with the mirror. It was fun between rounds bitching about abrupt decay, I should splash yada yada yada. We did think how Bug can't beat a resolved Ali from Cairo which would be awesome. Basically more people should play painter and stop whining now that judge recruiter playsets sell for about 500.


Round 8 against Shardless Bug (another person I knew)

Game one on the play turn 1 blood moon scoop
Game two turn 1 bolt deathrite, turn 2 moon.

6-2


Round 9 would’ve been against Esper Stoneblade against someone who knew I was on painter as I have faced him during scg before but I mainly just wanted the guaranteed top 32 as did he so we just ID’d and switched decks and played for fun. I had no idea how to play stoneblade and I got blood mooned through force without blue to cast Jace so I just died. The other game Welder went to town on me haha.

So 28th. Decent after starting 2-2. Going forward I’m just going to keep Jaya main even though she is slow vs tempo and worse vs sneak just because randos like playing chalice and enchantress. I want to try out the +1 fetch +1 lotus petal for 2 chrome mox but I am hesitant. Every time they fuck me over they come back and win me the next game. Everything else felt really good

[phoenix4]

So 28th. Decent after starting 2-2. Going forward I’m just going to keep Jaya main even though she is slow vs tempo and worse vs sneak just because randos like playing chalice and enchantress. I want to try out the +1 fetch +1 lotus petal for 2 chrome mox but I am hesitant. Every time they fuck me over they come back and win me the next game. Everything else felt really good

Nice tourney for you Kap'n! :)

I think you should try the "Petal Project" soon.. I mean, what's the worst thing that could happen? ;)

How many fellow painters are located in Europe? :)

[sroncor1]

Yes I was literally playing with a set of balls before the event that were not my own. I ended up 5-4 and I'll get a quick report up. Some bad draws to June and some inexperience there along with just bad luck. I've bEen texting jack and think I have some ideas how to make june better. I try and get a better post together on Tuesday. A lot of the thoughts will be based on he white splash which was awesome all day btw. I know I'm the only person not running mono red anymore but I love it all day and the splash allowed me to beat hatfield playing high tide, hang with and beat GOOD TES players and the like.

Seth

[GoblinZ]

Nice report! It seems that junk player should have fetched basic when he already saw you were playing painter. Imperial painter will punish those players who are unexperienced or have little knowledge about this deck. I even locked sneakattack up last time for he did not this deck and fetched two volcanic islands.

Ali from cairo is fun to play, I always wish I can have a chance to recruit for it.

[phoenix4]

What do you guys think of fetch lands in the main?

Pro's and con's anyone?

On a personal note, I've always played with fetches, but the last month I've tried without it, and it seems more resilient, if the meta has Stifle in it?

[Kap'n Cook]

Seth (sroncor1) asked me to post his report and thoughts since his Source message reply isn't working.


So I went 5-4 over the weekend. I was doing well till some bad play on my part against Jund. I will not be one of those guys who tells a bad beats story, although I was unlucky against the deck( the draws were incredibly strong with basically only reactive cards. I think the match up is rough, but winnable. My major mistake was looking at Deathrite Shaman, Abrupt decay, Bob, and Bloodbraid individually when I missed the strength and synergy of the cards together. I was able to hang in there against the regular decks, beating Stoneblade, and Alix Hatfield with High Tide. The deck still has game, and the failings are largely my own and mistakes due to not seeing what was important with the Jund matchup.

8 sollands
6 mountains
4 fetchlands
2 plateau

4 recruiters
4 painters servant
4 SSG
1 Jaya
2 Goblin welder
7 blast effects
1 koth
1 lotus petal
3 tops
4 blood moon
2 magus of the moon
3 e. tutor

Side
3 ensnaring bridge
1 peacekeeper
4 rest in peace
4 tormod’s crypt
I koth
1 helm
1 magus of the moon

The deck was great against stoneblade bug and rug. I felt like I was hanging tough against TES ,and I was able to beat Omnishow over the weekend. I played and went 4-0 in the legacy challenge, so I got a lot of games in. My changes for the deck aren’t much. I do want to change up the board. Right now I am trying 4 firebolt, and 3 SLaS in the board for Jund. To make room Koth leaves the main deck with a transfer of peacekeeper as she allows you to shut out eldrazi attacks game one. Cut ensnaring bridge to 2, drop the Koth from the board, along with the Magus, and drop 3 of the crypts.

Seth

[sroncor1]

If you run tops then you should run fetches. The more shuffling the better your options the more consistent you can make the deck. Stifle shouldn't be a problem.

Seth

[Yonthan]

8 sollands
6 mountains
4 fetchlands
2 plateau
Seth

@Seth: Have you ever tried to include some plains in your land base? With the 6 blood moon effects in your MD, do you only rely on the petal to produce the white mana?

[lambert101]

Current list. Please comment. Sent from cell so I used abbreviations.

3 City
4 Tomb
5 red fetchs
8 mountains

4 spirt guide
4 recruiter
4 Painter
1 magus of moon
1 welder

4 grindstone
3 top
3 magma jet
4 bolt
5 blasts
1 l petal
2 e. bridge
4 blood moon

board:
4 thorn of a
4 surgical
2 e bridge
2 spellskite
2 koth
1 jaya

[sroncor1]

That's a lot of burn. Interesting. How is it working out for you. I like your land base. That should be stable. I would stress running one jaya in the main. Otherwise looks interesting. Why the burn over blast effects.


I have tried a plains but you sort of always want a mountain. It isn't important to be able to cast the e tutor most of the time so it's worth taking the hit when a blood moon and mountain are mostly better.


Seth

[lambert101]

The burn helps to stabilize until e. bridge or combo

[Kap'n Cook]

Lambert stabilize against what? Recruiter actually looks a lot weaker in your build because you're only running 1 welder and nothing else really to go get. Blasts are much better at playing the control route than burn spells are so I'd drop 2-3 burn of your choice and add a recruit target and two blasts or vice versa.

[jandax]

Regarding the whole Witchbane Orb conversatioon I tried to bring up: I went on vacation for the past week so obv wasn't around to talk about it. Moving on;

My list is pretty standard, I have been playing a lot of TES lately and haven't been testing Painter. It's pretty similar to Kapt'n Cook's:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Great Furnace
4 Arid Mesa
4 Mountain

4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Goblin Welder
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage

4 Blood Moon
4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Chrome Mox

2 Faithless Looting
2 Magma Jet
3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast

The sideboard has Koths and Pyroclasms and Tormod's Crypt/Faerie Macabre, an extra blast or two and then three or four Witchbane Orbs.

I used to play Leyline. And I have learned to mulligan aggressively with the deck even before that. My first experience with the deck was GP Ghent, where I literally picked up the deck from a friend and went 6-3 day one, losing to Red decks. Don't remember what my sideboard was, I think I even had an Anarchy in there because playing Trials the day before I got pissed off by Humility. Anyways, the only advice I got about the deck was that Blood Moon or an early combo is good, mulligan to a hand that actually does something. And sticking to my guns, I pulled off some pretty sick mulligans, winning a couple times with a four card hand, and of course five and six card mulligans as well. After that experience I added Leyline for Tendrils/Burn/discard and all the things that hate on Painter. I found myself not liking the No-Leyline-Ship-It plan, and even splashed white for a short time for eTutor and a little RiP/Helm combo action. Total junk. Nowadays I'm back to the mono red version because Blood Moon is tits. Plus my particular deck is all "original", Beta or Original BB printings, my style of pimp. Beta REBs, Dark Blood Moons, shit looks awesome. So that leads me to have card preferences that might not always be a 100% optimal, but I won't play something crap just because it's from X set.

With the preface out of the way, my findings with Orb are mixed. In games two/three, you're likely to be going the mono-red control route. Therefore, I figured that with Welder and Lootings and other library manipulation with Jets and Tops, you can shave some "percentage points" for less optimal cards without affecting you're mulligan decision tree. Consistency is the premise, here. So to pheonix and Drew, this is my list and theories behind it all. As I said I haven't played the deck consistently as of late so your 2 cents are worth a lot :)

[phoenix4]

Well Jandax... I've never tried the Welder painter version, 'cause I find it to GY dependant.... Now I know, that it has to rely on the GY, since you're playing welder, but the danish meta is all about the hate..

I would really like to test the Welder version, since it allows for supreme combat tricks, but maybe when the meta settles on a more fair environment, I'll give it a try :)

I'm going a bit more old school tomorrow, when Danish Legacy Masters 2013 goes down... My list for saturday is as follows:

3x Magus of the Moon
4x Blood Moon
4x Painter's Servant
4x Grindstone
3x Pyroblast
3x Red Elemental Blast
4x Imperial Recruiter
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
4x Simian Spirit Guide
2x Chrome Mox
1x Lotus Petal
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Lightning Bolt

10x Mountains (Arabian Night edition... Gotta pimp FTW, right guys? ;))
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors

Sideboard:
3x Pyrokinesis
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Faerie Macabre
1x Red Elemental Blast
2x Trinisphere
1x Manic Vandal
1x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Ensnaring Bridge

The 2 Trinisphere in the SB is a test, I'm not sure wether to play Spheres or Needles tomorrow.. I got the Revokers against DRS, LED's and stuff, but do I need extra?

I think my biggest concern tomorrow are the U/R shelled show decks... I hate Eldrazi's, but I'm guessing it's a simple choice of boarding the stones out for the bridges and the extra revoker maybe?

What do you think? :)

[Kap'n Cook]

For your list against show and tell I think I would go -3 blood moon -4 grindstone and bring in the revoker, the bridges, the trinispheres (cantrips? not too sure. otherwise keep in the moons) and the 7th blast and play control.

I think the best way to do well is to just know your deck and be comfortable with it.


For everyone, I am really interested in Seth's decision to try out firebolt. I think if I were to make the switch I would just cut the 3 bolts maindeck and go with those. I am still hesitant because the 3 damage and instant speed help out random scenarios. But the card advantage and even greater synergy with faithless looting/grindstoning yourself have me intrigued. If anyone wants to help me out in data collection, make notes of when you draw/play your lightning bolts whether you would prefer firebolt in its place. This also includes times where you would want to flashback.

[DrewliusMaximus]

Jandax, if you've been playing TES a bunch, I'd suggest trying to fit Thorn of Amethyst in the SB if possible. I have found a set of Thorns very helpful in a variety of matchups aside from Storm too including against Show & Tell decks, Reanimator and Burn. Welder can support and kind of abuse Thorn as well.

Since I haven't played a Welder-heavy build in a while (I tend towards phoenix's concern about GY dependence), I don't have a great feel for it in the current meta. But would a 4th Top not be worth it? Seems like you could much more easily get Tops on the board and in the yard and turn each Welder into an extra draw every turn...while getting the added overall consistency from an extra Top. Although I guess I'm not considering the red color count for Chrome Mox.

Generally though, your card choices and reasoning seem solid. I personally like to avoid mulligans but your point that the deck can win through more selective keeps is totally valid. Yours and Kap'n's lists do make me miss the stronger Welder plan because that ability is just so stupidly good.

The idea of testing Firebolt with Looting is interesting, and also maybe in a list like yours, lambert.

I like the heavy burn plan but have usually found that approach increases the amount of times the deck runs out of gas. That's probably why I have favored Magma Jet over Lightning Bolt when the meta allows it because many times I play a Bolt and then feel like "...and then what?". I wonder if Firebolt might help there. I'd also agree with sroncor that Jaya should probably be in the MD, which would address lack of Recruiter targets Kap'n mentioned. Jaya can finish the burn win condition and works well behind Bridge also.

At a minimum, I'd suggest replacing a single Bolt with Jaya. Even though the Flashback is expensive, Firebolt is tempting too unless you think the 3 damage is crucial in your meta. If I were to test something going in the direction of your list lambert, I'd start with your MD and go: -2 Bridge, -4 Bolt and +3 Firebolt, +1 Jaya, +1 Revoker, +1 Top/Metamorph/2nd Revoker/Land.

Re: Fetchlands - I like them especially with Top, but I'm not in favor of completely maximizing shuffle effects with them. Firstly, life loss IS an issue with this deck. Second, Grindstone and Recruiter already give you ways to manipulate your deck with Top (as does Jet on its own if you play it). And finally, it's nice for your manabase to completely ignore hate like Stifle, and less frequently Aven Mindcensor, etc. I have also found that once I have Top, many times I want access to my mana without having to shuffle because the cards I want are already on top of the library. Sometimes this has resulted in a conflict with Fetchlands when I want to tap to draw with Top for a Blast, but the only red mana I have to play the Blast requires re-shuffling.

Good luck this weekend phoenix, and to anyone else playing this beast. Hopefully I'll be able to play tomorrow and we'll get another 24-30-person turnout like we've been getting recently in Houston.

[jandax]

At Ghent I had three or four Thorns in the side, and they weren't bad. Again I only played against decks that lose to Blood Moon and Red decks. Therefore, thorns weren't really in use but as it was my friend's loaner deck, he knew to have them in there.

As to the Welder argument, I think one of the deck's main strengths, if not the biggest one, is Blood Moon. With that in mind, playing to your Welders or something else is entirely up to the pilot it seems. I don't think the judge foils will make this deck a DTB, but at least it'll put it on people's radar and we'll be losing a little bit of the surprise factor that lends this deck many wins.

@Drew, I get it that fetchlands aren't exactly optimal all the time. I don't play them for the wee percentage of taking a land out of the deck to liven topdecks, they're literally there for library manipulation with Tops and because I don't have enough pimp mountains :[ I also don't think a fourth Top is necessary per se, while they're nice with Welder shenanigans they're horrible without [in multiples] and through my experience three is a comfortable number.

Thanks guys for your insights, all valid points and it helped. Good luck to those playing this weekend!

[Moomba]

Since I've just finished my play set of recruiters I figured I'd post my current list.

4 Painter
4 Recruiter
4 SSG
2 Revoker
1 Jaya
1 Welder
1 Magus
1 Metamorph

3 Lightning Bolt
3 REB
4 Pyroblast

4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's
1 Petal

4 Blood Moon

4 Tomb's
3 City's
4 Red Fetch
9 Mountain

SB
4 Bridge
3 Thorn
2 Surgical extraction
2 Koth
1 Macabre
1 Martyr of Ashes
1 T Crypt
1 REB

For my choices main board, I'm happy with my creature package for the recruiters. As much as I love Magma jets for deck manipulation 2 mana is just too slow for me personally. I do run pretty REB heavy, I just feel they become to powerful of a card with or without painter (blue is very heavy in my area).

For SB I really enjoy the Koth with Bridge, because as soon as you get that ultimate its hard to lose. Oops all spells decks are getting popular in my area so the cranial extractions are a must, and I just like the card in general. I love the idea for Martyr that was show in this thread, it takes my want for a pyroclasm and synergizes it perfectly with recruiters.

[phoenix4]

Well, that went.... Bad, to say the least... :(

I played 7 rounds swiss yesterday at Danish Legacy Masters and I failed in a lot of ways....

Round 1 was against Esperblade control, with 24 lands.... That's a little more, than I like :P Lost to basics eventually xD

Round 2... Again Esperblade, but a good friend of mine.. Game 1, I'm on the play, drop the Blood Moon, and it gets countered.. But hey, straight from the top, Blood Moon again on turn 2, leaving him frustrated :D Lost game 2, to a Engineered Explosives and game 3, same as game 1 :laugh: Seriously, ripping the 2nd Blood Moon as a topdeck.... PURE AWESOMENESS! :D

The following rounds I proceeded to meet Mono-R Sneak Attack among other things... Game 2, I had boarded the stones out for E-Bridges, but he was to fast for me... :(

Eventually I went 3-4.. Not the grand rehearsal for GP Strasbourg I'd hoped for, but hey: I'm still taking this to town in April ;)

On a sidenote: Cutting the 3rd Chrome Mox for a singleton Lotus Petal.... It helped a lot! Every time I drew Lotus Petal, it helped me, more than a Chrome Mox would have.. Not having to imprint a red card for that red mana was good :)

Wether it's a viable option in the long run? I'm not sure, but it saved me, last night :)

[The Duressed]

So I've got an idea I've been working on for Sneak-Show, and I'd like to share it with the rest of you because I think I'm really on to something. First of all, here's my list:

4 Painter's Servant
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Magus of the Moon
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Goblin Welder
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Phyrexian Metamorph

4 Grindstone
4 Blood Moon
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroblast
3 Magma Jet

2 Chrome Mox
5 Mountain
2 Great Furnace
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

Sideboard:
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Koth of the Hammer
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ratchet Bomb
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Ensnaring Bridge

I've seen a lot of talk from people in this thread and the previous version about siding in 1x Tormod's Crypt, 1x Faerie Macabre or something like that. The plan proposed is to pretty much just go forward with this deck's plan A, pray to God to draw a Crypt in time (or that Macabre is enough), and thus this deck will still be able to win.

I've been going about the match-up in a completely different way. Here's my sideboard plan:

-4 Grindstone
-2 Painter's Servant
-3 Magma Jet
-1 Jaya Ballard
-1 Magus of the Moon
-1 Blood Moon

+1 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Koth of the Hammer
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
+4 Thorn of Amethyst
+4 Ensnaring Bridge

I side out all my Grindstones and most of my Painters because that plan is just not good enough against decks that play Eldrazi. The plan instead is to just play a solid control game. The REBs are extremely powerful in this match-up, and I leave in a couple Painters so I'm able to counter Sneak Attack if necessary. A key part of this plan is Thorn of Amethyst -- It slows Sneak-Show down enough that this deck can get set up to play control properly. I tested today using this configuration and was extremely pleased by the result.

There's a non-trivial secondary benefit to this plan as well. In one of the matches I played today, my opponent brought in 3 or 4 Pithing Needles. He kept hands games two and three on the basis of being able to name Grindstone with his needles. People will be boarding in cards to nullify a plan that is no longer in our deck, and an opponent playing blank cards in games 2 and 3 is a very big deal.

I'm not saying that this makes the match-up super easy in games 2 and 3, but I believe it to be a better plan than the "Board in some Crypts or something and hope they make my combo work" plan. If there's one thing I want to stress more than anything else, it's this: This deck is not good when plan A is a 3-card combo.

Edit: Reading back over the thread more carefully, I'm apparently not the first one to come up with this strategy. I stand by everything I said though, and I'm sure I'm not the only person reading this thread who has missed that.

[thebastard2]

I suggest that Jaya and painters shouldn't be sided out. Remove all moon effects instead because they are less effective against sneakshow.
This way, you still have a way to win under the E.bridge lock even if they needle Koth.

[sroncor1]

Yes I have tried a plains but right now I would rather have the red source. Hitting the white isn't that important really.

In response to The Duressed post. Your idea is ok for sneak and show decks. But it fails miserably against hive mind, omnishow, or combo elves. It's for those reasons I feel like this strategy is not a good one across the board. Yes a three card combo is suboptimal but it can win. This strategy does not address those decks and folding to them seems like a bad idea right now. And thorn should only be brought in against storm and even then I am not sure it is worth doing.

Seth

[DrewliusMaximus]

@the Duressed - the SB plan I posted for Sneak and Show is pretty close to what you're doing, but I definitely agree with thebastard2 about Jaya. I think there are other things you could take out ahead of her, like Moons. Jaya is a win condition behind Bridge and with Painter can destroy shit like Emrakul or whatever.

I use a fairly similar plan against Omnitell, but I'll side out Revoker more readily than against Sneak and Show.

My Sneak and Show plan with the same MD (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25661-Deck-Imperial-Painter) is: +4 thorn, +4 Bridge, +2 Blast, +1 Crypt / -4 Moon, -3 Grindstone, -3 Jet, -1 Servant

So, I'm completely abandoning Moon because I actually want a bunch of mana under Thorn(s) and Moon isn't worth it against their deck. By doing that, I don't have to side out good stuff.

Against Omnitell I would probably do the same but with +1 Servant, -1 Revoker.

[The Duressed]

Yeah, I can definitely see taking out more moons to keep Jaya and the rest of the painters in the main. I'll make that adjustment.

sroncor1: I'm very surprised to hear you talk about Thorn the way you do. I know you're playing Enlightened Tutor in your deck, which makes the Tormod's Crypt plan a bit better, but it still doesn't look like you have very much to bring in against combo decks of any variety. The only thing I see in your sideboard which would be potentially helpful against those decks is your 4x Tormod's Crypt, 4x Rest in Peace. I've found Thorn to be a very helpful tool against many "unfair" decks because it either slows the opponent down enough for us to get in control (Show and Tell, Hive Mind, Omnishow) or completely destroys their plan (Storm Combo, etc). Have your Crypts and RIPs been enough for you to beat combo and decks with Eldrazi?

ps: I agree that my plan against the Elves deck with Eldrazi is not good, but I don't care. That's a match-up that i'm willing to not plan for because it's so rare.

[Kap'n Cook]

Here is a general rule: If the deck you are facing against sometimes sideboards blood moons or runs around 10 basics (basically a high number, whatever), then 90% of the time you don't want to keep yours in. The only reason you might want to is if you have cards that are even worse for that matchup, it turns off a particular utility land of theirs, or you want to stop shuffle effects by fetchlands. Again, this is not the be-all and end-all rule.


If you are facing emrakul elves then they are almost always mono-green, and moons should be taken out for crypts and other control cards.


Later this week I will finally get around to posting matchup analysis in the 2nd post on the 1st page of this thread so everyone can reference it if they have questions.

[Freggle]

Here is a general rule: If the deck you are facing against sometimes sideboards blood moons, then you don't want to keep yours in 95 percent of the time unless you have so many other useless cards keep them in the stop opponents fetchland shuffle effects (such as miracles).

If you are facing emrakul elves then they are almost assuredly mono-green, and moons should be taken out for crypts.


Later this week I will finally get around to posting matchup analysis in the 2nd post on the 1st page of this thread so everyone can reference it if they have questions.

Just wanted to stop over and say gratz on your MTGO Legacy Daily win tonight. It was a pleasure getting decked by you. ...but that is mostly because Painter's Servant make the beautiful enchantress deck look even cooler. :cool: Keep rollin'

[Kap'n Cook]

I updated the first page with short matchup descriptions for anyone who cares. If you would like to see something different or have any comments feel free to say so.

In other testing news I recently finished up 60 matches testing over the past few weeks with +1 Lotus Petal, +1 Fetch, -2 Chrome Mox and keeping Jaya main, revoker sideboard. I am definitely going to keep these changes going forward. Chrome mox is definitely better in some cases, LP and fetch felt better 75 percent of the time. I was lucky enough to get all the pieces of the deck on magic online when they were dirt cheap so I just roll dailies and two mans to test things out.

ANT 4-1
Miracles 2-1
12 Post 1-0
Stoneblade 3-0
Mud 1-2
Enchantress 1-0
TES 2-4
RUG 4-1
Reanimator 2-0
TinFins 2-2
Merfolk 1-0
High Tide 2-0
Burn 2-0
BUG 7-0
Stasis (lol what?) 1-0
Big Red Sneak 1-0
Lands 2-0
Elves 0-3
Sneak Show 1-0
Dredge 2-0
Zoo 1-0
UR/URW Delver 0-2
Death and Taxes 1-0
Goblins 1-0

Total 44-16

Clearly the biggest problems were Elves, TES, and TF. A few losses did involve mistakes that would have won the game and others did involve god draws like TF turn 1'ing me through my tormod's crypt but these results were certainly promising. Every match against Elves it felt like I was one turn away from taking control when they either glimpsed or natural ordered for lethal. Current elves lists a turn 1 blood moon on the play is basically game over, but it HAS to come down turn 1. So I am thinking of just completely siding them all out whenever on the draw. They will always fetch basic forest and they will always be able to fix their mana with deathrite/birchlore and cast decay or whatever they need.

Kap

[Koby]

Man I got you so good with Serenity. Mwuhahaha!

[phoenix4]

Yo! a big shout out to my fellow imperial friends, going to GP Strazz, this weekend...

I'd like to meet you down there for a chat on this amazing deck, and perhaps look at our decks, for a last minute tuning....

If you're interested in this round up, I'll be wearing an Indianapolis Colts jersey (Manning) and a red cap, the whole tourney through :)

Let's go have some fun this weekend :)

[Kap'n Cook]

Yo! a big shout out to my fellow imperial friends, going to GP Strazz, this weekend...

I'd like to meet you down there for a chat on this amazing deck, and perhaps look at our decks, for a last minute tuning....

If you're interested in this round up, I'll be wearing an Indianapolis Colts jersey (Manning) and a red cap, the whole tourney through :)

Let's go have some fun this weekend :)

Good luck to you and anyone else there playing Painter. If you are running the list you posted a while ago I'll offer you some tuning advice: +1 Goblin Welder -1 any other card really. He is too good and will probably win you a game somewhere along the way. Also, if you can take notes or remember well enough I would like to read a tournament report if you are up for it. I sometimes find it helpful to read about someone else's thought processes with the deck and not just comment on a particular list or match results.

Anyways good luck to you. All you have to do is top 4 to improve upon Grymer's GP showing lol

[DrewliusMaximus]

Good luck to iPainters in Strasbourg!

Today, I tried Firebolt in place of Magma Jet at a 28-person tourney here in Houston and got top 4. I liked it a lot actually and was able to get several 2-for-1's during the day. My friend Simon suggested Forked Bolt for consideration too, which is worth testing.

As long as 3 damage is not demanded by the meta, I think iPainter can do better than Lightning Bolt in the burn slots. Magma Jet has been a favorite of mine because I love fixing my draws but the 1-cc of Firebolt and Forked Bolt is significant and I'll take the potential 2-for-1 efficiency over 3 damage for now.

For reference, here was the list I ran:

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Scalding Tarn
11 Mountain

4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Lotus Petal

4 Blood Moon
1 Magus of the Moon

4 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
4 Grindstone

4 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Firebolt

4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter’s Servant
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Goblin Welder

SB
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Spellskite

[Moomba]

This past Saturday I played in a 40 man tourney with this current list. Was mainly a trial for certain things, #1 playing the deck at all since it's my first one in quite some time and #2 getting used to my areas metagame.

1x Goblin Welder
4x Imperial Recruiter
1x Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
3x Magus of the Moon
4x Painter's Servant
2x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Simian Spirit Guide
1x Koth of the Hammer
4x Blood Moon
4x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Grindstone
1x Lotus Petal
2x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Pyroblast
3x Red Elemental Blast
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
10x Mountain


SB
1x Koth of the Hammer
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Spellskite
4x Surgical Extraction
1x Red Elemental Blast
4x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Martyr of Ashes
1x Faerie Macabre

Was a 6 round with split to top 8, came 14th, if I had won my last round I would of made top 8, but with how I played I was happy with what I learned.

R1 vs GW Aggro 2/0 - Was a very randomly put together deck, guy even admitted to not know the format too well and just came for fun. G1 - Early Magus ruined his entire mana base G2 - Got a few beaters out early, but Moon+Bridge into Koth ultimate was an easy gg.

R2 vs Sneak&Show 1/1 - Ended up timing out in match 3 so was a draw. My brother and friends were telling me of the plays I had messed up and should have won the 3rd game, but I accepted my poor play, still trying to get back into the swing of things. G1 - Early sneak attack into Emrakul was gg G2 - Successfully bridge locked him into Jaya bombing him to death. G3 - I didn't use Jaya to her proper potential according to my spectators, so learned from it.

R3 vs Esper Stoneblade 0/2 - G1 - So much discard then Jace controlled me. G2 - Jitte raped my face.

R4 vs Couterbalance Helm 2/0 - G1 - Got some good REBs and Revoker shut down his top and Grindstone'd him out. G2 - Again Revoker shut down his top, his last ditch effort to enlighten tutor his helm while he had rest in peace hoping I'd miss to activate my grindstone but didn't, and he was out of gas.

R5 vs Punishing Jund 2/1 - G1 - My brother told me he was playing BUG, so I kept a hand with not much other than a Magus since moons destroy BUG, but it turned out to be Jund and he bolted leaving me with crap and lost easily. G2 - Jund can touch my Magus, but not my blood moon, mixed with bridge, I locked him out til Koth ultimate. G3 - Revoker shutting down his 2 Deathrites, then into a later blood moon and bridge, Koth'd him out again.

R6 vs UR Landstill 0/2 - With all the counters he through at my face both games, their wasn't much that I could do, bridge's saved me for a bit but still just couldn't play anything with getting it bolted or countered.

All in all, I was happy with what I learned about other play styles, the metagame, and what I did not like about my current adaptation of the deck. Any pointers would be gladly accepted.

[jandax]

Scored a pair of Eng Recruiters for 150euro/ea. at the GP last weekend. Unfortunately, no one I knew with the deck (or saw) made it to Day 2. Day one there was lots of Jund, RUG, and other three color decks, ripe pickings.

[_Cedric_]

Hi guys,
Although I play the deck and follow this thread from the very beginning (3 years maybe), it is the first time I post here. Since I was day 2 in Starsbourg, you may be interested in a small report (I can't remember all details sorry). My list can be found on mtgtop8 :)

Day 1: 7-1 then unfortunatelly 7-2
R1 1-0: Bye with points
R2 2-0: Esperblade (2-0) - Early moon then control to combo. Keys were to handle jitte when on table, and destroy the only basic plain under moon.
R3 2-1: Elves (2-1) - Mull 4 was bad, althoug I could have killed turn 5, he killed me turn 4 and 3rd game was stared with 2 pyroclasms so I clean up a lot but we both had some land go turn but I drew only land unfortunatelly but no pyroblast to control a bit with painter.
R4 3-1: BUG (2-0)- Moon turn 1, concede. Game 2 had combo quite quickly
R5 4-1: Tezzeret BUW?! (2-0) - He did not like blood moon too...
R6 5-1: BUG (2-1) - Very good starting hands, something like sol land, moon, mountain, painter, pyro, bolt, grindstone 3 times. Hymn to tourach took me moon and grinstone so I think I lost that one.
R7 6-1: Enchantress (2-0) - Early painter control then combo
R8 7-1: HighTide (2-1) - Combo fast for the first one and early painter and blast lands for the 3rd game. Game 2 lost because I did not play Thorn because I feel he was in bad shape with 4 lands so I play to combo next turn and lost.
R9 7-2: Punishing Jund (1-2) - Very diffucult matchup. Discard is never cool and too many removal to control enough before combo.

Day 2: 8-2, 9-3, 10-4 and 10-6
R10 8-2: Bye! Was lucky no opponent
R11 8-3: Storm (1-2) - killed by tokens game 1. Thorn of amethyst slow him down to combo game 2. Game 3 was close, thorn again but no control at all unless a painter on table
R12 9-3: Sneak Show (2-0) - Happy to win game 1 because he drew badly and controlled him a bit with painter/reb. Easier after side game 2, ensnaring on show and tell, revoker on sneak and waited him with painter/reb x 3 while attacking with magus and painter. Won counter battle and game with the 3 reb against double fow.
R13 9-4: Storm (0-2) - Not a good hand game 1 against that (can't remember). Mulligan 6 game 2 forcing me to keep below average hand. Quick end
R14 10-4: BUG (2-0) - Do not like blood moon. 2 quick ends again for me that time
R16 10-5: MUD (1-2) - Turn 1 Chalice 1 against Turn 1 magus, I recruit and beat him up before he had enough mana, finishing him with bolt. Game 2 awful , turn 1 metalworker, turn 2 he played golem and hellkite!! I had played painter turn 1, grindstone turn 2 his attack turn 3 with hellkite blew my painter and won before I could kill him. Game 3: I keep a hand with painter/reb x2 and play turn 1 painter and willing to control. Unfortunatelly I made bad choice. He played dust bowl, then city, the grim monolith: I reb, then reb the the city thinking I would slow him down because I could not counter all its hand when he will have 4 or 6 land (in next turns). That was bad 2 turn later he played metalworker. I beat him down having on table 2 ssg, 1 magus, 1 painter, 1 recruiter, he was at 4 on turn 5 and show me artifacts for something like 17 manas with its lands, played grim, dynamo, hellkite, karn, destroyed the painter. Turn 6 I drew grindstone which would have won... awfull choice, regrets..
R17 10-6: Sneak show (2-0) - He play turn one show and tell, I ssg+reb but he had fow. Game two was close but I did not have a painter for my hand with rebs so he won and made top64 and itm.

I still feel the deck is good in the current metagame (30% games won with playing just with turn 1 moon is really nice), I'll probably test soon -2 pyro, +2 top or something like that.

A little history to underlines how the deck is 'stable' to me. I played that kind of version (8 pyro, 8 moons) since more than one year and I was always/almost top 8 most of events I did: 6-3 Bazar of Moxen 2011 (a friend of me made 7-2 with that deck), 7-2 Bazar of Moxen 2012, each year made final or won a trial for that event in my local store (25 peoples). Split the final in side event GP Quebec 2013. I missed top 8 to be 5-1 in Side event GP utrech 2013 against 2 kills turn 1 (tin fins) and finally day 2 inGP Starsbourg 2013. As I'm not a top player and still make a lot of mistakes I guess the deck is good. I'm sure a very good player would do better performances than me.

[Kap'n Cook]

I'm back again to update with testing results and offer some more insights.

I've played another significant number of games swapping the 3x Lightning Bolt for 3x Firebolt. While I have had a few 2 for 1s and had some pitch Firebolt to my Faithless Looting or Grindstone myself into one moments, the sorcery speed has been a major turn off and actually cost me some games I could have won had it been a Lightning Bolt. Maybe it is just my particular build (lower landcount of 19 with no Chrome Mox and 2x Faithless Looting) but I find myself operating on less than 5 mana more often than not. I could certainly see how Seth's version or Drew's version could run it to much better effect but looting usually has me pitching the 5th or 6th lands into other spells I would rather play over flashbacking Firebolt. Another significant part of Lightning Bolt is that it makes Turn 2 moon on the play that much better. Mountain, go, and bolt their turn 1 play into a turn 2 Blood Moon is one of the best openings you can have, whether it is Deathrite, Heirarch, Delver, or something else.

I believe Drew is right that as long as 3 damage isn't required in the current metagame, there are removal spells that are better suited for Painter. However, as far as Instant Speed AND CMC=1, Lightning bolt is the best we have. If Forked Bolt or Firebolt were Instants, I wouldn't hesitate to switch to either. The only other removal spells that look halfway decent with those requirements are MAYBE Skred, Galvanic Blast, or Burst Lightning but even then, Bolt will usually just be better 9 times out of 10.



@Cedric

Nice Day 1 at Strasburg. Looking at your list I am not surprised that you got so many Turn 1 Blood Moon wins. The Full 8 Moon/8 Blast certainly helps your explosive early game but if your opponent stops that it doesn't look that pretty. I am sure that there were some stretches where you just bricked hard drawing land and mox and dead moons and that any form selection would have had a drastic effect. I fully support trying out 2 tops and would recommend even more selection/tutor cards in any combination of top, looting, enlightened tutor/magma jet based on your taste. These are really the key cards that enable Painter's late game resiliency and make it more versatile than Dragon Stompy


I know there were a few other Painter's there, anyone else here on the Source? I would still like to read your reports

[phoenix4]

Well.. I attended GP Strazz too, but not with the success, I'd hoped for. :(

Day 1, I started out loosing to Junk 2-1.. He's on the play - Verdant Catabombs, go! I play a Blood Moon, looks at him as to check, whether it hits the table, he nods, and I'm quick to say go, he didn't fetch??!!

He still ends up winning game 1.

After that I took 4 matches in a row, beating - what i feel - is some of the worst MU, we can have.. TinFins (Using blasts as LD, haha) and beating U/W Control :)
My back against the wall, I could afford to lose round 6, but with a loss in round 7, I dropped out. On day 2, I played the Legacy Championships, with another deck... Shouldn't have done that...

I went back to basics with the list, playing the list I wrote in the thread some time ago.. The Lotus Petal in MB... I can't believe how awesome it sometimes is :D I'm not shure, as to put one more in the main, though.

But here's the tricky part... 2 of the 3 matches, that I lost, I found it to be the lack of drawing gas-cards, instead of lands.. Now, I play 3 Sensei's, have tried another version with 4 Faithless Lootings instead of SDT, but Faithless for me, doesn't cut it alone... When you have no cards in hand, Looting is shit :(

Which cards do we have in red, that provides us with card draw, without necesseraly (Spellcheck?) giving our opponent cards as well - Reforge the Soul?

[Malchar]

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/1213

Here's an interesting list. It's not exactly related, but I figured I had to post it here once I realized that Imperial Recruiter could be used to search for Hanweir Watchkeep and Instigator Gang.

[Kap'n Cook]

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/1213

Here's an interesting list. It's not exactly related, but I figured I had to post it here once I realized that Imperial Recruiter could be used to search for Hanweir Watchkeep and Instigator Gang.

You should post that in dragon stompy as a recruiter variant of the deck.

[DrewliusMaximus]

Not bad GP performances Cedric and Phoenix.

Cedric, your list seems pretty all-in on the core iPainter plans. Nice and pure.

I tend to share Phoenix’s concern about running out of gas and agree that Tops should probably be in there.


Which cards do we have in red, that provides us with card draw, without necesseraly (Spellcheck?) giving our opponent cards as well - Reforge the Soul?

Phoenix, the only card I’ve tried for straight-forward draw is Dangerous Wager. Otherwise there is always:

Tops + Welder
Metamorph for additional copies of Recruiter (and chain Recruiters during the game to get card advantage)


However, as far as Instant Speed AND CMC=1, Lightning bolt is the best we have. If Forked Bolt or Firebolt were Instants, I wouldn't hesitate to switch to either. The only other removal spells that look halfway decent with those requirements are MAYBE Skred, Galvanic Blast, or Burst Lightning but even then, Bolt will usually just be better 9 times out of 10.

Kap’n, your point is legit. I love Magma Jet but I am starting to want 1cc burn more. The turn 1 instant speed answer on the play is definitely significant, although I would only consider it critically necessary against Shaman, Hierarch (because they enable removal of the 2nd turn Moon) and maybe Goblin Lackey (just because you can’t let him hit you even once). Against Delver or other damage dealers, sorcery speed would bother me less because I can deal with them after the Moon. In your build, it does seem like Lightning Bolt is a no brainer. I’m going to pay closer attention to the instances where Firebolt’s sorcery speed costs me a lock as compared to the instances where I get a 2-1. It’s possible that I should be playing Lightning Bolt instead of Firebolt too, although I have been able to get 5 mana fairly easily with my list. 5 is about the reasonable cutoff point though, because I tested Mizzium Mortars a bit and 6 mana didn't come consistently, especially with 3 red.

@Moomba, has Martyr of Ashes worked for you?

[Moomba]

Personally the Martyr was useless in my last tournament. Their wasn't enough aggro decks to make it worth while. I still think it's an alright card (tutorable pyroclasm is nice) but just didn't fit what I needed. Also with my list I've main decked the bridges so that's why their is no burn. I personally have changed up my list a bit both main and side.

I've added the metamorph and spellskite main deck as to replace the 2 magus. Just seeing them die to burn too easily just makes them so inferior to blood moons. For the side board I've put in manic vandal (jitte can suck it) and trying out some defense grids as getting counter to death was very annoying.

[Malchar]

4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Scalding Tarn
11 Mountain

4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Lotus Petal

4 Blood Moon
1 Magus of the Moon

4 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
4 Grindstone

4 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Firebolt

4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter’s Servant
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Goblin Welder

SB
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Spellskite

I started testing again against my friend's TES deck. I've been using this list, and it's really quite good. It has alleviated a lot of my fears about playing against a storm opponent. I like the idea of 5 moons, 5 blasts, 5 "free mana" spells. Also, the TES deck doesn't use any basics, so it is hurt a little more than normal by the moons. For sideboarding, I take out the welder, metamorph, jaya, and 3 burn spells to bring in the 2 ratchet bombs and 4 thorns. In my older lists, I would bring in as many as 8 or 10 cards against storm, but I like only having to bring in 6 as it is a more sensible number which doesn't compromise the integrity of the painter combo.

The only change I made to the list was to swap firebolt for magma jet, although I think that this list can definitely support the high flashback cost of the firebolt.

The 4 sensei's divining tops work great against storm. With 4 copies, you have a high chance of drawing it and getting to see those extra 3 cards early while they could still be relevant.

The revokers in the main are also great. I think that they should become a staple of any stompy-shell deck. They are rarely a dead card, and they act as a much-needed dual purpose offense/defense card.

[jandax]

Maybe this is wrong but I'd board out the Moon effects, or at least leave Magus in because he can beat down (ish). My reasoning for this is that the combo isn't faster than TES, and Moon effects don't necessarily shut them down and are way more often dead draws than before. They still need Red mana and can get black and blue from Lotus Petal and Chrome Mox. I think it's best to load up on Blasts and Thorns and play the control in the matchup, getting an early Painter in to turn your blasts on and put Revokers on LED. If they combo out turn one or two that's how the deck is designed. And from playing TES myself, and through my own testing, that's generally how the match plays out. Either TES does what it does and goes off, or iPainter buys itself enough time to win via Moon/Blast effects, or silver bullets like Revoker. I'd put it in TES' favor generally speaking.

Then again I can be completely wrong in my assessment.

[Malchar]

Maybe this is wrong but I'd board out the Moon effects, or at least leave Magus in because he can beat down (ish). My reasoning for this is that the combo isn't faster than TES, and Moon effects don't necessarily shut them down and are way more often dead draws than before.


I think it's best to load up on Blasts and Thorns and play the control in the matchup, getting an early Painter in to turn your blasts on and put Revokers on LED.

I definitely agree, although blood moon has been pretty effective in my testing. It might be too optimistic, but if you resolve a moon and a revoker on lotus petal, it's almost impossible for them to win in a timely fashion. It also encourages them to go off with empty the warrens which turns on our ratchet bombs as another out. Note that without a moon effect, I agree that revoker should definitely hit lion's eye diamond as you say. The ideal sideboarding plan probably varies greatly depending on the specifics of their list such as whether or not they have basics or the specific contents of their burning wish sideboard.

I should probably side out 2 more things so I can bring in those other blasts from the sideboard though. Would it be better to keep the moons on the outside chance that they are effective, or side out a lotus petal, simian spirit guide, or perhaps sensei's divining top?

[DrewliusMaximus]

The only change I made to the list was to swap firebolt for magma jet, although I think that this list can definitely support the high flashback cost of the firebolt.

Malchar, Jet is still my default choice for burn but I'm testing Firebolt to see if it will make enough of a difference against stuff like Goblins and Elves.

Against Storm, I automatically take out the burn and Metamorph for Thorns. After that, the SB decisions get a bit more difficult. I have typically replaced a single Moon with an extra Blast, but finding room for Ratchet Bomb isn't a bad idea.


The 4 sensei's divining tops work great against storm. With 4 copies, you have a high chance of drawing it and getting to see those extra 3 cards early while they could still be relevant.

Personally, I don't usually like siding out Top because I believe the above statement is right on. Top in this deck can be a turn 1 Ponder (kind of) and then sustain your draws the rest of the game. Still, Storm would be the matchup where I would consider it, especially on the draw.

[GoblinZ]

I really don't like firebolt, I donnot think it can work well against elves or goblins, for the former I wish I have instand speed burn to kill their turn one elve especially on the play, for the latter, it may cost too much to flashback because they run wasteland and port, and goblins always have haste, sometime I really need lightning bolt to survive from a lethal strike.

now I run 3 bolt and one jet, I am still not sure if I should totally cut the jet like before.

I still donnot like cut the moon effect to 5 or 4, sometimes for example against jund I really need my magus to trade burn for my painter, it is descent and sometimes necessary.

And now I prepare 3 revokers, two in main, one in sb for sneakshow, I really hate that deck.

[phoenix4]

And now I prepare 3 revokers, two in main, one in sb for sneakshow, I really hate that deck.

I would just try with 2 in the main :) You essentially have 6 revokers plus cards in the SB :)

[jandax]

I definitely agree, although blood moon has been pretty effective in my testing. It might be too optimistic, but if you resolve a moon and a revoker on lotus petal, it's almost impossible for them to win in a timely fashion. It also encourages them to go off with empty the warrens which turns on our ratchet bombs as another out. Note that without a moon effect, I agree that revoker should definitely hit lion's eye diamond as you say. The ideal sideboarding plan probably varies greatly depending on the specifics of their list such as whether or not they have basics or the specific contents of their burning wish sideboard.

I should probably side out 2 more things so I can bring in those other blasts from the sideboard though. Would it be better to keep the moons on the outside chance that they are effective, or side out a lotus petal, simian spirit guide, or perhaps sensei's divining top?

You might even want to shave a Grindstone or two, if you're dedicating to the control side of the match up. That would leave room for the off-chance Moon effects to stay in the main, and you side in your control bidness.

[DrewliusMaximus]

You might even want to shave a Grindstone or two, if you're dedicating to the control side of the match up. That would leave room for the off-chance Moon effects to stay in the main, and you side in your control bidness.

Not a bad call against Storm. I have always kept the Stones in for the potential quick combo but we should prevent them from winning as a first priority. I'm going to test this when possible.

[jandax]

That's the idea. Since you're dedicating to control in the Storm matchup, leave the Stone to the topdeck and ensure the game goes long enough for you to find one and win from there. Jaya can get it done, and if you get Welder shenanigans going with Top it's only a matter of time before you see it. By the way, probably a dumb question, but can Spellskite interact with Tendrils?

[Malchar]

I'm not sure about taking out the grindstones. In my testing, that was the only realistic win condition, and it's already kind of hard to find them quickly. I think I prefer taking out a lotus petal first and then a simian spirit guide if you need another slot. I'm willing to concede that they are the faster deck, so the one-time-use mana sources don't really make sense for us.

I can perhaps see taking out one grindstone since you don't really want multiples. Assuming that they keep their hand disruption and bring in some artifact removal, it shouldn't matter because they ought to be focusing their hate on the painters rather than the grindstones since the painters make the blasts live. There's also the thorns for them to waste their disruption on.

[jandax]

And I'm hesitant to shave mana sources, as this deck can stumble hard with little filtering for its mana. Cutting one, maybe two stones still seems to be a good line of play.

[sroncor1]

Please do not shave grindstones in the Storm match up. That actually may be the worst thing you could do. You could cheat on mana as you have to be aggressive on the mulligan. I almost always side out the moon on the draw against storm. Burnin wish is red and they only need one petal of crack LED for black and your moon is a waste. It is still an ok play on the play as you can slow down their cantrips or force them to go off without duress due to mana issues. The fact that your control element relies on two cards leaves you very vulnerable and it is not a reliable way to win. That and this deck is at it's best a shitty aggro deck. Without something like a second tuen Koth it is really hard to put the preassure on them through aggro means before they reload and go for combo two or another duress/silence effect. That is why you need the combo and more of them. This is why I have been stressing E tutor. We are a little more than a half turn slower than storm decks when you account for protection. The E tutor allows you to have a more consistent combo and still allows mana open to blast their important spell. The way to battle storm is with mild disruption (bc that's all we have) and a fast consistent combo and aggressive mulligans. Rarely will you be able to dick around with top and looting to draw into cards. Hope this helps.

Seth

[jandax]

Fair points. I think all this conversation revolves around the fact that faster combo decks that use red aren't very favorable matchups, and we're willing to try anything to shore up those odds.

[sroncor1]

@jandax- I understand that. My point was thinking about cutting down on grindstones doesn't shore up that matchup at all. We can't play the control match up. You can control a turn or interrupt their cantrips but if you go the control root they will eventually beat you. Our clock is too slow against them. The best way to beat them is to either combo first or slow down their combo long enough to do yours. Using blasts correctly can buy you that turn or two to get your combo turn faster than theirs. Thorn does the same thing it is a permanent that buys you approx2-3 turns at best.

Seth

[DrewliusMaximus]

Cutting mana, especially fast mana, against Storm seems bad. First-turn Thorn of Amethyst (or Trinisphere) is THE IDEAL play against them unless you're playing Mindbreak Trap (for mono-red builds at least). And playing multiple Thorns is awesome, so you want mana.

I'm not sold at all on taking out Grindstones, but they certainly are not the only win conditions against Storm. Dork beatdown works just fine. A Revoker under a couple of Thorns is probably your game, and so is Revoker + Servant and some Blasts, etc.

The point about Moons not being at their best against Storm is a good one. They can play around even a turn 1 Moon fairly easily. That's why I've typically sided out a Moon or two before Grindstone, but it does seem possible that the extra potential disruption from Moon is worth it. I don't plan to be the combo deck most of the time in this matchup, even though it is nice to end the game asap if you can.

It's not one of my favorite opponents but I have not had bad results against Storm Combo. The die roll seems to be the biggest factor to me.

[Malchar]

This is the main logical problem that I run into against storm. Moons are generally the worst card against them, but they are far from being completely dead. In fact, the only realistic way to win by attacking is to completely lock them out of the game with a moon and revokers.

However, I'm starting to think that some moons should just be sided out to make room for the extra red blasts.

[phoenix4]

I usually board the thorns in for the blood moons.. you'll want magus for the moon-beating, but thorns is easier for us to get around early game... Get painter online, counter all the OPs shot and swing/combo FTW ;)

[Kap'n Cook]

Alright time to end the storm discussion since people will board whatever they think is correct.

To change the subject, who plans on going to Grand Prix Washington, D.C.?

[Kap'n Cook]

Top 4 split a tourney yesterday going 6-0-1 (12-1 in games) using my standard list found on the first page.

Beat Lands, Junk, MUD, UR Delver, Stoneblade, and Affinity (lost game 1). I won't delve into details but will instead touch on my unique choices others seem to shy away from. Looting on the day was phenomenal as always, digging for lands when needed, going deeper in the deck, and pitching unneeded shit. Manic Vandal killed 2x Chalice on 1 and a Jitte. Martyr of Ashes singlehandedly saved my my top 8 match against Affinity. I had to mull to 5 on the play and drew a jaya that began controlling combat. My opponent dropped a revoker on jaya and a confidant which would have won him the game but my slowrolled martyr killed off both and freed up jaya for pinging duty again.

My version is not graveyard dependent and operates perfectly fine even in the presence of hate. I would even say that running more welders provides insurance against grave hate and if people are boarding anything other than surgical then congrats, you have your opponent boarding suboptimally. My choices make the deck more synergistic and based on my results, I really think people should try it out and learn the welder lines of play that make the deck so crazy.

[jandax]

So OP list is the latest and most tested? Gonna give it a whirl

[Kap'n Cook]

The short version of how the new legendary rules affect our deck (mostly for metamorph users):

Metamorph is no longer a catch all answer to random legendary nonsense your opponent plays. Jitte becomes a much bigger hassle. It cuts off the removal aspect of metamorph against show and tell.

Besides that, moon will always handle whatever crazy brews people have and painter is largely the same. Someone can try brewing with mox opal if they want but it seems most people have lowered chrome mox/petal counts for more consistency and that seems the most logical replacement spot in the deck.

[sroncor1]

Please don't anyone try mox opal in the deck. It doesn't fit. Moon effects might be a little stronger and Jack now if we do get paired up its a race to who can keep their Jaya active;). Otherwise who gives a fuck.

Seth

[Moomba]

Well goodbye Metamorph once the rule sets in, you protected me from Jittes and Emrakul's for long enough.

[jandax]

So what's the new tech now, Runed Halo?

[Sentient6]

Hello People,

I just got my Playset Recruiters and I am starting to build the deck now. :) I am not yet sure about a final list, but I will post it here as soon as I have decided what to play. What do you guys think about Duplicant as a tech against Emrakul? Granted it's really expensive, but with Show and Tell that's less of an issue. It can also be fetched with Recruiter.

[sroncor1]

Jack and I have each taken a different approach to Eldrazi. While a second turn show and tell into an Eldrazi is really tough to beat, with the new legendary rules Wr don't have a valid way to really fight it beyond things like stingscourger, active Jaya, or ensnaring bridge. Drew, Jack, and myself all run 4 plus bridge effects and I highly recommend that for anyone. This goes for all versions of the deck.

After this it becomes how can you win with the deck with all the Eldrazi. Bridge buys you plenty of time but attacking isn't an option. For me I have gone the three card combo route. My card of choice these days is Rest in Peace as the card has great splash damage against numerous decks in the field. It also let's you run a singleton Helm of OBEDIANCE for more combo pieces. I run a single bridge or peacekeeper main. This let's you slow roll their attack and then still keep your combo pieces live.

The other win con is Koth. He allows you to win under bridge is really strong against esper and junk( not so much jund due to burn and haste). I currently am running none bec jund is really popular in the area and firebolt has proven better for me in that match up and other junk has largely disappeared due to people finally realizing Nic Fic blows donkey dicks.

Seth

[Wasteland]

Hi there,
i started to play the deck too since more and more players in Germany do not play any basics anymore and beside that i like the concept of the deck very much... The point of not having brainstorms or any library manipulation (i tested top and hated it since you dont have that mush shuffle-effects) i compensated with lootings, but not with 1 or 2, but straight 4 copies of them: Looting into looting is insane since you have every turn the ability to get 2 fresh cards without further card-disadvantage. Results:
Annecy 8:2
Nuremberg 4:1:1 (not funny to loose with active painter against 2 piledrivers^^)
Now here the list with explanations to every card which needs explanations in my opinion:

"Moonraker"

//lands:
4x ancient tomb
4x city of traitors
8x mountain
2x great furnace

//creatures
4x painter's servant
4x imperial recruiter
1x goblin welder (would like to have 2. or even 3. but dont have room for it)
1x jaya ballard
3x magus of the moon (i don't like the idea of cutting magus 2 and 3 since the strategy of 1. turn moon just wins too often alone)
1x phyrexian revoker (too good not to play 1 in the main, looking at sneak attack, hierarchs, qasalis, deathrites, equipments, vials etc.)
4x simian spirit guide
1x manic vandal (originally i had 1 squee in this slot for real CA with lootings, but i like the idea more not to loose vs. chalice 1 preboard or having an out vs. enemy equipments)

//other spells
4x grindstone
4x faithless looting
3x red elemental blast
3x pyroblast
4x blood moon
2x umezawa's jitte (why not play jitte by myself and win really many games just by t1 painter t2 jitte equip attack - but i have to admit that jitte gets worse with the upcoming rule-changes, since it's not more jitte-removal...)
3x chrome mox (again i don't think one should cut theese, ecspecially since in my build you have more red cards to imprint or to discard unnecessary moxes into looting)

//sideboard
3x thorn of amethyst
2x tormod's crypt
3x ensnaring bridge
3x cursed totem (i really like this card in metas where you face elves, maverick or multiple deathrites - beside that the card is a real good out against tin fins)
2x shattering spree (there might be something better, i just hate to loose against affinity or chalice 1)
1x faery macabre
1x duplicant

For any further explanations or discussion, post in this threat or PM me :-)
Greetz from Germany
Marius Hausmann

[Kap'n Cook]

First off, welcome to the deck.

Second, unlike mtg salvation or other forums that have absolutely no worthwhile information regarding Imperial Painter, we don't really need explanations for recruiter targets. Sorry if that sounds harsh. As sad as it is, there is only a small subset of cards that actually work well with IP and they have all been listed on the front page and discussed ad nauseum in the first thread and the few pages we have so far. Targets just come down to personal play preference. In the future I would suggest asking players for opinions and past experiences with certain cards.

Third, to critique your card choices, I am sorry to hear that you don't like SDT. I won't try to convince you to play any since I still believe knowing how your specific build operates is the best way to play well. Just know that everyone else usually settles in on at least 3 copies. I have never even considered cursed totem and think it is a terrible choice since Jaya and Welder are the best creatures in the deck. If you are that intent on shutting down abilities just run more revokers or burn spells. I am also surprised that you haven't tried out Phyrexian Metamorph at all. He does get slightly worse in a month's time but at the moment it is another must include.

Besides that good luck playing

[sroncor1]

@Jack- it's ok to be mean. People have to start reading and not think they are actually teaching many people about a deck that is five years old. I'm going to post my new list here in the next couple days. I know you and I have a different approach but I ally love the entire 75, and yes Goblin Settler has found a home.

In regards to SDT, I really don't see how you can't use it in the deck. I'm still not sure if 2 or 3 is the right number, as it feels like it should be 2.5. But the card is objectively the second strongest card in the deck, the first being welder. With the exception of them and Boold Moon in certain matches and timing, the deck is a collection of sub par cards that have amazing synergy together, which make it better than the sum of its parts. That being said SDT helps hold it together, add consistency, dig for answers, and allow you to grind out games you should never win. Sometimes it isn't good, like against tendrils based decks, but overall I feel safe saying if you dont have some in your list it is wrong.

Seth

[Julian23]

Marius made it sound like he had picked up the deck only by chance whereas in fact he has been tuning it for quite a while.

One should mention that Top does in fact not dig for answers in this deck — as sroncor1 puts it. Hence the replacement with Faithless Looting.

[sroncor1]

@ Julian- it most certainly does dig for answers. It with somewhere between 8-12 shuffle effects over numerous turns is the definition of digging for an answer. And he may have been tuning his list but it is an inferior build. I could list the reasons and it may deal with his meta.

Seth

[Malchar]

Hi there,
i started to play the deck too since more and more players in Germany do not play any basics anymore and beside that i like the concept of the deck very much... The point of not having brainstorms or any library manipulation (i tested top and hated it since you dont have that mush shuffle-effects) i compensated with lootings, but not with 1 or 2, but straight 4 copies of them: Looting into looting is insane since you have every turn the ability to get 2 fresh cards without further card-disadvantage.

Looting is a reasonable replacement for sensei's top. They are pretty similar: Top digs 3, looting digs 2. Top is reusable if you have shufflers, but looting lets you trade dead cards for live ones, and this deck can have a lot of dead cards. I'm not sure if you tried using fetchlands, but they do make sensei's top a lot better. I will actively hold off on using fetchlands until I can get value from the top since this deck usually has extra mana floating around anyway.

Looting also helps welder a lot, but I'm not convinced that that's a good place for this deck to go.

[Kap'n Cook]

As probably one of the few players who uses both Sensei and Looting, I am going to have to disagree with you Malchar about Looting being a reasonable replacement for top. Looting is a reasonable supplement to top but cannot fully replace it.

@Marius one reason you draw so many dead cards that you feel the need to loot away is because of your lack of card selection with top and subsequent shuffles from recruiter and grindstone activations that clear away the top two cards of your deck, effectively a 'shuffle effect'. Plus looting is a sorcery and ties up mana on your turn which is extremely relevant.

I really like this summary of the deck by Seth:
"the deck is a collection of sub par cards that have amazing synergy together, which make it better than the sum of its parts"

And Malchar I know you are a skeptic of Welder/looting, but I will repeat that even though my version (compared to all other builds) gets the most value out of the graveyard, in no way is it ever focused or reliant on it. All it does is increase the synergy of the 'sub-par' cards.

[Wasteland]

What i tell is not a "perhaps" looting is better then top - the choice was tested in multiple tournaments and in my opinion looting has been proven to be MUCH better then top.

1.) looting lets you keep hands that you could not really keep with a senseis top (for example hands with 2 chrome moxes 3 lands 1 looting and 1 good business-spell) - and yes i know that you cut the moxes down to 1 but the big strength of the deck IS (as you said in the 1. page), that you can win games by simply play t1 blood moon - i would not cut down the chances for doing so (for the same reason i never would cut the 2. and 3. magus)

2.) @sroncor you really want to talk about shuffle-effects with painter? you mentioned 8-12... even IF you have 4 recruiters and 2 fetchlands (which do not work under a moon, which you always want to have) you have 6 shuffler - not that much compared with brainstorm-based decks like bug, canadian or stoneblade. Beneath that the phrase "it's an inferior list and i COULD list the reasons" (but you don't) isnt't quite helpful -.-

3.) i never said sdt is bad and if i had the place, i would perhaps add 1 or 2 to the deck, but there is just no room - and testing has shown that sdt is just inferior to looting (in my opinion) - believe it or not, but the argument "everyone i know plays 3 tops" isn't quite strong (ecspecially since the deck does not really have that much top8 appearances). So just test the playset lootings instead of sdt and if you still don't like, change them back (i for surelly won't). Sidenote: You really have the time / mana to activate top, grind away 2 cards and look into top again? It really sounds slow... (while looting, ecspecially when revealing another looting does the job much better)

4.) you are perhaps right about the metamorph but as you said, it's all about the matchups you have to play and at the moment i consider the 2 jittes a bit stronger...

5.) if you dislike cursed totem, elves might not be a metagame-factor where you play, but in the matchups, in which you board the card, its not that important to have an active jaya or welder (jaya vs. elves / maverick way too slow, welder primary good against control-oriented decks)

By the way, for references... http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10881 - from annecy there was only posted top8, so the painter does not appear, but is on the 9. place at the first 400man legacy tournament...

Greetz,
Marius Hausmann

[Kap'n Cook]

Congrats on your finish. The deck is good and worked for you. We are here trying to help you make it even better

The only reason the deck doesn't have many top 8s is due to the scarcity of recruiter. Drew has top8d numerous big tournaments. Grymer top8d a GP. Other Texans have top32d consistently. Seth has been playing Painter for 5 years now to extreme success around the DC area. My win percentage is around 70%. So yes, the people who consistently do well in multiple tournaments and who actively play the deck all play tops.

You are entitled to your opinion and in case you forgot, I said the biggest indicator of success is knowing how your deck plays with your personal preferences. So yes, you like looting and it works. The others on here are just explaining why we like top and our opinions on why it is better than looting. Also, as Phoenix4 eloquently put it a few pages ago, "Faithless for me, doesn't cut it alone... When you have no cards in hand, Looting is shit :("


Seth also plays enlightened tutor so 8-12 'shuffles' (counting grindstone activation clearing top) is not far off. Grindstoning yourself really isn't that slow. It is pretty similar to how you use faithless looting to flashback, except we can use do it at instant speed.

I won't go into Elves strategy since everyone seems to have differing opinions.

Lastly, if you believe Welder to only be useful in Control matchups I strongly urge you to use it more often against a variety of decks to realize how good it is. A small sample: 1) against Elves they abrupt decay your combo piece 2) against Dredge you use a Crypt and weld it back for a 2nd use 3) against Show and tell they put in Emrakul you put in recruiter, get Metamorph. Now you kill Emrakul even through a counterspell 4) against Storm you grindstone yourself to hit a painter and weld out stone for painter saving 2 mana. 5) against any tempo deck you activate Grindstone, they kill painter in response with a burn spell/removal, you weld back in. It really is amazing and you need to re-evaluate how you are using him.

[sroncor1]

@ Wasteland- if you looked at my list you would see I run five fetches and also have 3 E tutor. That is where the shuffle effects number comes from. Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon are great and the real reasons to run this deck. But for as good as they are there are times you don't want them in play. Often games two and three your opponent will( now this is assuming they are a decent player) get a basic or keep a hand hat will not fold to moon. In this situation holding back is better. So many people forget that Moon just hurts us less, we still feel the effect as it slows us down and that is relevant

In response to that hand you mentioned. Without a bunch of cantrips, which looting is not really that, you should never keep that hand. You can have people think that something good could come from it but you are more likely to draw more blanks and then you are fucked. Now if you ran top and the fetches I mentioned you would see 5-6 cards vs your 2-3. Without sounding like a dick, I was a mathematics major at Johns Hopkins, then 5>2 at least to me. Thus where I come up with the fact that top DIGS for cards. So really you have a better chance of doing something with a shit hand that you never should have kept with SDT than looting.

The problems with your list are that you do not maximize the discard effect by running only one Welder. If you go all in on looting Welder count should be 2 maybe even 3. It really is the strongest card in the deck and if you are playing pseudo draw effects that feed him he mitigates the card disadvantage. You also have a large amount of card disadvantage in the deck with minimal increase in consistency of finding the combo and other lock pieces. Too often you would be living off the draw. SDT helps prevent this. Your ability to win against Show and Tell decks is also questionable. The meta in Europe is different than the US for sure, but I struggle to see how you can consistently beat decks running Eldrazi.

And I want to finally touch on top 8 numbers. Legacy as a format has such high variance that the diffence between top 8 and 32 is so small. Somewhere people get off on top 8 without understanding he meta game and other factors. The deck has a higher variance bc we run less cantrips. Your list has even higher variance than mine, which needs more aggressive mulligans, which with all the card disadvantage should make it harder, not easier to put up numbers. I personally have done quite well with the deck. I have gone 5-1 drop at SCG events bc I have a real life and that often takes more importance. I play the deck in MD, VA area and have put up solid if not better results for over five years with it against some truly great legacy players. Over that time all of my thoughts on deck construction are based in numerous testing, events, and the experiences I have gained from the deck. Too often people pick up the deck, play for a bit and start to question numbers and cards lots of people over the past five years have come to agree on. Some cards we don't agree on. I think people should run E tutor, Jack goes heavy on the Welder plan, and Drew has had great success with Magma Jet, with Kim having great success with a more stock list. But all to often people are new to the deck, pick up a card and think back to when they first learned to masturbate, thinking they were the only one in the world to have this totally awesome idea. I miss the old source anymore. I look like a scrub as I lost 200 posts somehow, but there was a time when people took the time to read all posts and post thoughtful replies instead of just dropping their deck and pretending they now have the biggest dick in the room.

Seth

[sroncor1]

Ok so here is my most recent list

4 Recruiter
4 Painters servant
4 SSG
2 Goblin Welder
2 Magus of the moon
1 Peacekeeper
7 blast
1 lotus petal
3 SDT
4 Grindstone
4 Blood Moon
4 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb
5 fetches
2 plateau
5 mountain
1 goblin settler
3 enlightened tutor

Side
3 SoLS
4 Firebolt
4 rest in peace
1 helm
3 ensnaring bridges

Notes about the deck, yes it's 61 cards. Goblin settler is my 61 card. The card has been really strong against Jund and red based decks allowing me to totally lock them out of colored lands and then grinding out the win. The E tutor have really given the deck consistency. Peacekeeper allows us to sometimes pull games out against decks hat we never should game one. I picked it over E snaring bridge bc I have more tutors for dudes and with newer storm decks they are using Empty the Warrens a little more and sometimes you can't empty your hand fast enough for the bridge to stop their attack.

I played the deck to a disappointed 3-3 finish today.

Round 1 I beat Sneak and Show. Lost game one and use Peacekepper and Ensnaring Bridge to prevent some big monsters from smashing face. It is important to not that with a Peacekeeper and Bridge Echoing Truth is not an out for them.

Round 2 I lost to UR delver. I won one game on the back of rest in peace and helm. Otherwise it is really tough to use painter as the burn was always on hand. Probably made a misplay, but I can't remember much of the match.

Round 3 I beat Bant. Blood Moon is really good here. That is all.

Round 4 I beat miracles. Again Blood Moon was key. Here was a match up where I almost got the settler, but since I was worried about slow rolling the shitty aggro plan due to him having Batterskull as a possible out.

Round 5 I lost to RUG delver. Jack caught the third game. It was a one land keep on the draw with a top. I landed top, drew two lands and had a Blood Moon double forced. Followed by a wasteland on my city. Had I drawn a land over like five turns I had a chance as my hand was full of recruiters and blood moons. Sometimes the cards just aren't there. I still think the one lander was solid and if he didn't have the double force I think I get there. I don't think I would do it differently.

Round 6 I again lost to UR delver. All three games were super close. I def made two misplays that cost me the round in the last game. I was playing around forked bolt and his own REB, but to be honest I don't think most lists are running those cards anymore.

Notes about he deck in general. The deck still has game. In terms of the white splash, I doubt looting would have performed better than top, or E tutor. I would not have beaten Sneak and Show without the white splash. My duals never got waste landed, and I never lost a game by one life due to a fetch land. So I think the value they give is worth the small risks. Clearly I built the deck with graveyard hate and Jund in mind. I played no Jund and I will not lie, my board didn't give me the best chances against UR delver. With tat in consideration I don't think here is much to be done with my version of the deck. My misplays def cost me at least a round. Otherwise sometimes the deck bricks, the cost of stomps decks. I don't know where I would take the deck. My gut tells me Jund is still the deck to watch out for. It seems stronger than UR delver which seems terrible right now. With that in mind I am not sure what I would change.

Seth

[Kap'n Cook]

I also played in Baltimore to a depressing record of 4-4-1 (most likely would have ended up 3-6 with competent players)

R1 Tinfins (0-1)
He killed me turn 2 as a I kept a slower hand that could get there against a slower deck. Game 2 I keep dropping hate pieces and weld out his pithing needle on grindstone to combo with crypt. Game 3 is turn 3 tendrils that should have happened turn 2.

R2 U/B planeswalker deck? (1-1)
Game 1 I had to break 2 standstills but got a moon to lock off black and manlands. I countered a Clique and killed his jace and then assembled the stone. Game 2 he led tarpit to my hand of welder, stone, top, blast, mountain, tomb, petal. I played welder and he played turn 2 chalice on 1. I let top get countered and welded out petal to check top 3. Played grindstone (countered) welded top out. From there just grindstoned myself, found a painter, and welded stone for painter to win. Welder actin a fool.

R3 Sneak show (1-2)
I kept 2x mountain, tomb, painter, 2x stone, recruiter on the play. Played turn 1 painter so that if he was running discard i would still have a stone. he turn 1 emrakuls so I grab metamorph with recruiter but he forced it next turn so i die. Game 2 I play out 2x mountain with revoker on sneak with bridge in hand when he through the breach emrakuls me. We play draw go and he plays show, i put bridge but draw next turn and can't play anything so he attacks with grisel.

R4 against Bug control (arianrhod's pimp as fuck deck) (1-3)
He plays delta go, I play welder. He disfigures eot and drops a standstill. From there I get all moons countered and he lands a deed so that locks up anything im going to do. Game 2 I had to mull terrible hands down to 4 but peel mire, ssg, ssg, moon so it is a snap keep. He mulled to 6 but had the force.

No point in dropping since my ride was money contention

R5 Dream Halls SnT (2-3)
G1 He plays islands and fetches and cantrips. I played grindstone and turn 3 recruited, he forced, I blasted. Got Painter and he scooped. Game 2 he did the same thing and stifled an activation for stone but I beat down.
The entire match I had no idea what he was playing so I asked after and he said the omniscience deck. I asked if he had emrakuls and he said 3. Oh well. Should be 1-4

R6 Sneak attack (2-4)
Game 1 I knew what he was on but still died a horrible death. Game 2 I landed a bridge and hid under that while I waited to combo off with crypt. Game 3 I again looked at unkeepable hands in any scenario and went to a blind 2 and died.

R7 Goblins (3-4)
Both games were simple combo turn 3

R8 Bant (4-4)
Game 1 combo with monkey-blast backup. Game 2 Welder went to town welding painter's and grindstones back to play as he pridemaged and k-gripped. Eventually I metamorphed his sylvan safekeeper and played a bridge to end the nonsense.

R9 Sneak Attack (draw. 4-4-1)
We both knew that it didn't matter and what each other was on. We played game 1 for fun and I got sneaked.



Obviously Emrakul was everywhere and I got destroyed. I had chances in each eldrazi game but was slightly unlucky with mulligans but thats what happens. Against any non-eldrazi deck I feel my list is optimal and I went 3-1 (6-2 games). Bug control comes down to if you can resolve a moon and I couldn't. If you can't, deed and counters and removal will make your life miserable. But clearly I struggled with eldrazi and R/w enlightened tutor (especially with top to put into play whatever you want) is flat out better against show and tell than mono-red. With the legend rule changing in a month I feel that some changes will have to happen and new testing will have to be done to see if Metamorph is still worth it.

[Wasteland]

Any reason you play goblin settler over avalanche rider?

[phoenix4]

Any reason you play goblin settler over avalanche rider?

Why not use Orcish Settlers for more landdestruction? :P

[Kap'n Cook]

Any reason you play goblin settler over avalanche rider?

I can actually answer this as we discussed it yesterday at Baltimore. Riders' echo cost is more prohibitive to your post-LD game plan. The extra +1/+1 and extra 2 damage from haste is irrelevant since Painter is a bad beat down deck anyways. Also Seth boards in Sword of Light and Shadow so Settler actually is better equipped to pick up a sword the turn after it hits play.

Consider the following sequence of turns against a Jund player: Turn 1/2 play a Blood Moon. The Jund player may have fetched a basic forest or swamp turn 1 or turn 2 in response. Turn 3 play Recruiter, grab Settler. Turn 4 Settler their only basic land. Turn 5 play and equip Sword onto Settler and win from there.


@Phoenix
Regarding Orcish Settlers, I would say its drawback is that you may not get any activations out of it before it gets bolted, similar to Viashino Heretic vs. Manic Vandal as artifact removal. Also, you would need 5 mana available to make it better than G. Settler which sometimes is hard under a moon effect.

[The Duressed]

That's definitely a tempting idea. I'm also very intrigued by your 3x Sword of Light and Shadow. How has that been? Can you discuss where it's been especially good, and whether or not you plan to continue to use it in the future?

[sroncor1]

@Wasteland- Jack gave a great reason behind Settler vs the other cards taht have similar effects. In the end the mana, and having a body to stick around are the most important things. It can still trade with Bobs, and Snapcaster. Although I will concede against Jace.deck Avalanche Riders is stronger. Overall the card is best at augmenting the Moon plan, in another way to strengthen it especially when on the play. It is best against Jund, and Jace.deck. However it is a nice way permanently handle troublesome lands with all the lightning bolts floating around.

In regards to the SoLS, it was played in anticipation of Jund. It is best agaisnt decks that use burn as removal. The lifegain, return of creatures, and +2 toughness are just what you want against them. It also shines against BUG and RUG decks when you get going. The last legacy SCG open I didnt see a bunch of Jund. Not sure what happened there as it seems to have more game against Show and Tell and combo variants, along with beating decks that use Jace. If it remains a force in the meta I would consider using the SoLS still. Jitte is another option, although that would be best in a tribal meta which just sounds miserable to be part of anymore.

Seth

PS Jack made a note that with E tutor I should run an artifact land so that it can serve as a mana source searcher. He is totally correct, and I would immediately update my above list with -1 mountain and +1 Great Furnance.

[Nickm]

Hey guys, I’v been following the thread and playing painter for a bit now. Most of my experience in on modo, but I did play the deck at one of the GP Portland side events were I went 6-2 and ended up in 9th.
Here is my most current list:
2 Goblin Welder
4 Imperial Recruiter
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Painter's Servant
4 Blood Moon
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Grindstone
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Chrome Mox
2 Scalding Tarn
8 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

Sideboard:
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pyroclasm
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Manic Vandal
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Avalanche Riders
This list has been working really well for me in the last couple weeks, bringing in a lot of tickets. The Avalanche Riders is an experiment you guys have inspired me to try out. Up until last night it was as Orcish Settlers, which I did board in and resolve against Miracles. Unfortunately it was quickly sworded and my dreams of value were crushed.

I can’t make up my mind if I want to add a 3rd or 4th fetch, top work with top. That is likely the next thing I want to be testing.
Anyone have any suggestions?

[Kap'n Cook]

Nick your list looks fine. Pretty standard. 3-4 fetches in mono-red is just based on preference I think. Maindeck 1-of ensnaring bridge seems kind of random since you can't tutor for it, you can only top/stone for it. I have never liked Mindbreak trap in Painter but do what works for you. What is your mtgo name? I am wondering if you are the one I've played the mirror against.

For everyone else, pretty soon I will try out an extremely small white splash (only 2 enlightened tutors). The change comes from Seth always saying how much flexibility it offers, the expected metagame of higher show and tell/emrakul decks, and I want to begin experimenting now since in a month I don't feel Metamorph will be good for a maindeck slot.

The changes I am thinking about are: out: 3 bolts, 1 looting, 1 metamorph and in: 2 e tutor, 1 blast, 1 revoker, 1 bridge. I haven't played with a splash ever but I anticipate the tutoring ability will compensate for the lack of burn spells to stall the game out longer. I will have to reconsider the sideboard after getting a feel for how the small tutor package plays out but will report back with my findings

[Ish]

Just picked up the deck and started playing. Looking forward to participating in this thread. Here's where I'm starting.

Creatures:19
2 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
1 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Phyrexian Metamorph

Spells:23
2 Chrome Mox
4 Grindstone
3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Magma Jet
4 Blood Moon
1 Ensnaring Bridge

Lands:18
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Great Furnace
6 Mountain
2 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard:15
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroclasm
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Forcefield
4 Trinisphere

[cadaver]

Hello all. I hope I'm posting this correctly I'm new to this site so I'm sorry if I'm doing this wrong.
I have inally picked up recruiters and decided to give this deck a go, and I must say its a blast. The list imb running thus far is

1 solemn simulacrum
4 painters servant
4 simian spirit guide
3 magus of the moon
4 imperial recruiter
3 goblin welder

4 blood moon

3 faithless looting
4 red elemental blast
3 pyroblast

1 ensnaring bridge
1 sword of light and shadow
4 chrome mox
4 grindstone

3 great furnice
5 mountains
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors

Sb

1 vexing shusher
4 fairy macabre
3 trinisphere
2 phyrexian revoker
2 ensnaring bridge
1 pyroclasm
2?

The questions I have are a. Does this seem like an optimal list. B. What should my other 2 sb cards be? My meta is pretty diverce but there is an abundance of rug, esper/death blade, and show n tell. Other than that's its 12 post goblins and death n taxes

[phoenix4]

Does people in here generally prefer Trinisphere in the main or in the board? :)

[Moomba]

Most list generally these days don't run trinisphere at all. If you did want to run it, it would have to depend what kind of approach you wanted to take with the deck (usually dependent on metagame suggestions) More people seem to use Thorn instead, as it can be put in with 1 sol land, at least that is my take on it.

Speaking of Trini and Thorn effects, Seth, have you thought about adding 1 Thalia to the SB in place of Thorn for your white splash as a recuiter target which swings decently with first strike? Been meaning to test out the white splash, still just trying to think of the way I wanted to put the sb together.

[phoenix4]

Most list generally these days don't run trinisphere at all. If you did want to run it, it would have to depend what kind of approach you wanted to take with the deck (usually dependent on metagame suggestions) More people seem to use Thorn instead, as it can be put in with 1 sol land, at least that is my take on it.

Speaking of Trini and Thorn effects, Seth, have you thought about adding 1 Thalia to the SB in place of Thorn for your white splash as a recuiter target which swings decently with first strike? Been meaning to test out the white splash, still just trying to think of the way I wanted to put the sb together.

Well, Thorn doesn't slow my OP's down as much as Trinisphere does, and we're kinda okay with paying 3? :)

[Ish]

I'm trying trini first. It really hurts an opposing deck when it comes down. Thorn doesn't punish cantrips as bad.

Obviously meta and personal preference plays a major role too.

[cadaver]

Had a fun scenerio happen with trini. I had 2 welders in play with trini and during my turn was able to welder out trini on my turn and cast.spells at normal cost and at eot welder trini back to tax opponent. Granted this won't always happen but there'd deff tricks in this deck to make trini work to our advantage even more than most decks that play it. It's kind of like e bridge in the fact that we play around it unroll we sculpt a hand that can win than welder it away and.go.off

[Ish]

Had a fun scenerio happen with trini. I had 2 welders in play with trini and during my turn was able to welder out trini on my turn and cast.spells at normal cost and at eot welder trini back to tax opponent. Granted this won't always happen but there'd deff tricks in this deck to make trini work to our advantage even more than most decks that play it. It's kind of like e bridge in the fact that we play around it unroll we sculpt a hand that can win than welder it away and.go.off

:). Cool!

Ill post my experience with them. I'm running 4 in the board.

[The Duressed]

Nobody's arguing with the power level of Trinisphere. If you had a choice between Trinisphere or Thorn of Amethyst to have in play against combo, you would obviously choose Trinisphere. The problem is the mana cost. When you're up against matchups where you need to have a sphere effect in play as soon as possible, Thorn costing 2 instead of 3 is a really big deal. In situations where you have it in your opening hand, you can reasonably get it into play on turn 1 and always get it into play on turn 2. Combo decks' combination of duress effects and high speed make this one turn difference extremely important.

@Cadaver:
1. The first thing that jumps out about your list is 4 Chrome Mox. Wow, that's a LOT! I would cut this down to two at most, putting in 2 red fetch lands instead.
2. I haven't seen Solemn Simulacrum played in this deck in a long time. It's just too slow and doesn't do enough. If you're looking for a card with an excellent Goblin Welder interaction, I'd direct you to Wurmcoil Engine.
3. I'd try to find room for Sensei's Divining Top if you can. That card has proven itself time and again for me, and it's especially good in decks that play multiple Goblin Welders.
4. For your last sideboard cards, my recommendations include Koth of the Hammer (no more than 1), Tormod's Crypt, Manic Vandal, and Ratchet Bomb.

@Sroncor:
Have you tested that build (with sword) against Jund? How does the matchup look? Basically, I'm wondering whether or not landing SoLaS is actually game over (or some approximation thereof).

[sroncor1]

In regards to Trinisphere, the card is really strong. While it will slow your opponent down, it does also slow us down, just not as bad. In a world of janky combo decks like belcher it is a house. I have never really found it to be insane against TES. If they keep a land light, cantrips heavy hand it can slow them down enough for you to combo first. But it does make it very had to REB them effectively while also building our combo. Personally I have found that redundancy in the combo along with aggressive mulligans, and blast effects are the best way I personally have found to combat the deck. The E tutor allows for more consistent combos, but not necessarily faster. REB is still critical whether it is stopping a cantrip or a burning wish. Something Hollywood also said was bad things happen after Brainstorm so my thought is maximize my ability to prevent that.

About SoLS, it is very strong against Jund. Not game over but it helps. They really need abrupt decay to win and it eliminates their red removal about half the time. The life gain is nice when things get Long with deathrite. But coupled with the Firebolt it serves a great foil to deathrite while minimizing the power of most of their removal along with making our dudes at least presentable. I really like my current build against Jund and actually thin the match is in my favor now.

About Thalia, she may be awesome. I have never checked her out but seems like an idea that may have legs. My gut tells me Cannonist may be better as both Recruiter and E tutor get that one. Years ago I used Cannonist to marginal success. But as I noted above, for me the best way to beat other combos is have a piece of disruption to get me to turn three and help ensure that the combo is consistent as I can to go off that turn.

Seth

[Ish]

Nobody's arguing with the power level of Trinisphere.

I dont think anyone was arguing anything. The pros and cons of each card are quite obvious and understood by everyone. The discussion that I read was simply "what is everyone else playing?". Not which is better.

[cadaver]

So the two decks I found painter struggles against are rug.and aggro loam. How do we fight these decks. It seems anything with burn and counters is a pain

[Ish]

So the two decks I found painter struggles against are rug.and aggro loam. How do we fight these decks. It seems anything with burn and counters is a pain

Counters can hurt... Against rug you just need to stick a blood moon effect. Try doing it with blast backup. If you can get it to stick early you're way ahead... Then just burn out any delivers they may have. Goyf can be handled with painter/blast or jaya.... Or just chump block while looking for combo

Aggro loam: sculpt the combo and go off. Again if they are playing a greedy manabase moon them and shut them out.

SB: A resolves bridge against RUG is good. Revokers against loam... Hard to keep around but best card against seismic assault

[Ish]

Went to my first tournament with this yesterday. About 50 players.


Went 3-3. Overall was happy with that at the experience level I have with the deck. Also had a BLAST playing it.

Wins: elves, affinity, Jund
Losses: affinity, deathblade, ANT

The only "bad draws" match I had was against storm. Lost game 1 legit. Game 2 mulled to 5 and got stuck on 2 land with a thorn in play... 2 more in hand lol.

The deathblade match was the only one I felt like I never had a chance.

Affinity and super fast creature decks feel scary right now. I want more puroclasms or somthing.

Top felt great sometimes, awkward sometimes without a grindstone. Magma blast was only meh, Gonna give faithless looting a try instead. Would love to find room for bolts but just don't see it.

[phoenix4]

Aaaww mayn, I'm dying to play this deck again, unfortunatly I can't until July, as I have a bet with a friend :/

What I'm really dying to try out is a welder version with Trinisphere in the main, since the Mono-R sneak attack deck I'm playing, has great success fucking the OP over :D

Regarding the Bolt situation, Ish is talking about:
How many times do you have it in hand, and you'd want it to be something else? ;)

[Kap'n Cook]

Regarding the Bolt situation, Ish is talking about:
How many times do you have it in hand, and you'd want it to be something else? ;)

It's actually funny you mention this bolt scenario as it is one of the things that I have been tinkering with over the past week or two. My list will probably change with the legend rule update and the release of Theros since there will assuredly be a bunch of new creatures we want to kill but at the moment I have been trying out the following changes from my 1st page list: out 3 bolts, 1 mountain, in 2 revoker, 1 blast, 1 fetch and changing the sideboard revoker to a Koth. The Koth slot may become a 2nd Jaya to help against creature decks but the changes help out against a wider variety of decks where bolt is subpar. Also, just like additional copies of Welder, Revoker (as compared to Bolt) will draw counterspells and removal that otherwise would hit Painter. It's been pretty good so far. To compensate for the lack of bolts I have been bringing in Martyr against confidant and deathrite decks.


Ish all I can say is keep playing. The power level of the deck is so high with Moon effects but you really improve your skill in the games where Moon doesn't matter or where it gets countered. Also, run Martyr. It has saved my ass from such a wide range of decks it seems perfect for what you're looking for.

[phoenix4]

@Kap'n:
Do you always use Martyr of Ashes to kill creatures with toughness, or do you sometimes sack it for 2 or more, potentially killing bigger critters? :)

[Kap'n Cook]

Whatever the situation calls for. I've put Painter on Red just to get some huge Martyr kills or turn your lands/artifacts into red cards for the x=1/2 activation

[Ish]

Ooh. I do like martyr. Didn't have that in my list. A tutorable mini wrath.

[Nickm]

Nick your list looks fine. Pretty standard. 3-4 fetches in mono-red is just based on preference I think. Maindeck 1-of ensnaring bridge seems kind of random since you can't tutor for it, you can only top/stone for it. I have never liked Mindbreak trap in Painter but do what works for you. What is your mtgo name? I am wondering if you are the one I've played the mirror against.

Ya, I think that was me. My name is Psychic_Viking, I remember playing like a donkey and walking into everything against someone playing painter. I know the singleton bridge seems janky but I haven't found anything I like over it yet.

[Ish]

I ran a single bridge this weekend and it did great. Not sure I want to keep it in, but I don't think it's janky. Game 1 vs elves it saved my ass.

[Ish]

I went down to 2 top, took out my 3 magma jets for 4 faithless looting. I couldn't be happier with the results.

They are so synergistic with bad top spins, and awesome with welder. Was able to faithless a grindstone away with welder in play for a game win.

Really recommend testing out faithless if you haven't already.

[cadaver]

Ish do you feel comfortable going 2 top 4 looting? Atm I'm running 3/3 split and have contemplated for awhile going 4 looting

[Ish]

Ish do you feel comfortable going 2 top 4 looting? Atm I'm running 3/3 split and have contemplated for awhile going 4 looting

I hate drawing multiple tops with a passion. Plus I hate getting "top locked". So for me yes. I would never go less than 2 right now, cuz there are times that top is nuts. But usually it's for a longer game.

With faithless looting's flashback it doesn't feel bad drawing multiple and pitching one sometimes when you don't want to lose other cards. And putting artifacts in the graveyard is as good as having them in hand with welder at times.

I'm going to keep playing the full set until I find an awkwardness about them not to.

[Ish]

Has anyone tried an LED in this version? I was considering playing 1 chrome mox, 1 LED. Ain't with the 4 SSG and 18 land.

[Kap'n Cook]

Has anyone tried an LED in this version? I was considering playing 1 chrome mox, 1 LED. Ain't with the 4 SSG and 18 land.

Not really sure why you'd want to. We can't tutor for it like UR Painter can and most times we can activate with blast protection so pitching your hand is pretty bad. I guess if you really want to you'll have to use a couple spellskites as protection but that seems weaker. Plus unlike UR Painter, most times the combo for us is just secondary to playing board control so the lack of speed usually isn't too much of an issue.

Also I'm not really sure what you mean when you say "ain't with the 4 ssg". If that means cutting them I'd advise against that.

[Ish]

Thanks for the response. You make sense. Someone had suggested it to me and wasn't sure if there was any basis for it. Ill stick with the chrome moxes.

"Ain't" was iphone autocorrect error lol.

[jandax]

Are any of the OP lists up to date?

[Kap'n Cook]

Are any of the OP lists up to date?

All on the front page (Drew, Me, Seth) are good to go. I won't update mine with my changes yet because I want to see how it keeps playing but I have liked them so far. (-3 lightning bolt, +2 phyrexian revoker, +1 pyroblast. Board -1 revoker, +1 koth)

[Ish]

Are any of the OP lists up to date?

The thread was started in march of this year, so everything should be up to date. It's hard to find a single exact list everyone can look to as it is not a widely played deck. But the core can be agreed upon as listed in the OP.

Here's what I've been playing. I am still new to the deck, but I got all my info from this thread. I play fewer SDT than most.

Creatures:20
2 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Phyrexian Metamorph

Spells:22
2 Chrome Mox
4 Faithless Looting
4 Grindstone
2 Pyroblast
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Blood Moon

Lands:18
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
6 Mountain

Sideboard:15
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pyroblast
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Faerie Macabre

[jandax]

All on the front page (Drew, Me, Seth) are good to go. I won't update mine with my changes yet because I want to see how it keeps playing but I have liked them so far. (-3 lightning bolt, +2 phyrexian revoker, +1 pyroblast. Board -1 revoker, +1 koth)

Cool, I dropped bolt too. Do revokers give you more of what your looking for or are they just a new flavor of the month?

[Ish]

Cool, I dropped bolt too. Do revokers give you more of what your looking for or are they just a new flavor of the month?

They serve a dual purpose for me. There's usually something relevant to name in any match, but are also great beaters.

It gives you a fighting chance against storm game 1 naming LED usually.

Great against Deathright Shaman under a blood moon lock.

Hits various equipment and SFM.

Hits troublesome planeswalkers.

..The list can go on. In game two I bring in more against many matches, but I have never found myself brining any out. All this with a tutorable 2 power attacker.

[phoenix4]

Imperial Painter is for red, what Death and Taxes is for white :D

Fav deck 4ever :D

I'm not sure if i wanna drop bolt.... It's applications are many :)

[jandax]

They serve a dual purpose for me. There's usually something relevant to name in any match, but are also great beaters.

It gives you a fighting chance against storm game 1 naming LED usually.

Great against Deathright Shaman under a blood moon lock.

Hits various equipment and SFM.

Hits troublesome planeswalkers.

..The list can go on. In game two I bring in more against many matches, but I have never found myself brining any out. All this with a tutorable 2 power attacker.

Yeah I get it. When I was playing the deck more consistently a year ago or so, Revoker was still off the radar. One was common, but just as a Recruiter toolbox critter. I'm just interested in OPs' opinions on the card in multiples, as indeed they have uses in just about any matchup. I guess the more Revokers you run, the more matchup knowledge you have, the better off you are eh?

[Ish]

I started with 1 revoker main and 2 side. I quickly upped the count to 2 main and will never go less unless there is a serious meta shift.

I don't like having to wait to tutor them with recruiter in key matchups where I want them, but obviously still can if need be. Multiples allow for this consistency.

[jandax]

So is the general consensus nowadays that Magus is a little lackluster with the popularity of Jund, and shaving copies allows for more critters to Recruit? You posted your list earlier, right Ish? Gonna dig a few pages back, curious to see where people are cutting cards because there's little room in general

[Ish]

So is the general consensus nowadays that Magus is a little lackluster with the popularity of Jund, and shaving copies allows for more critters to Recruit? You posted your list earlier, right Ish? Gonna dig a few pages back, curious to see where people are cutting cards because there's little room in general

I "think" 2 Magus is pretty stock. Didn't come up with that number on my own when I started the deck. But it is easy to see when playing that it is pretty sound. Blood Moon shuts down alot of decks, but any deck running bolt or punishing fire can easily deal with Magus. 6 Moon effects has been pretty good to me on turn 1 or 2. In some matchups Moon effects are just awful usually. I'd hate to be running 8 in those matchups. Think turn 1 "empty" hand, Blood Moon, pass... Mountain Goblin Lackey, pass. DOH!

[phoenix4]

I sleeved up the deck yesterday (welder version) and played like 15 games vs. Esper blade...
I never thought that relying SO much on our GY would be good, but MAN its awesome!!!

I only wanna fit in wurmcoil engine, but do I play 1 or 2? :P

[Ish]

I sleeved up the deck yesterday (welder version) and played like 15 games vs. Esper blade...
I never thought that relying SO much on our GY would be good, but MAN its awesome!!!

I only wanna fit in wurmcoil engine, but do I play 1 or 2? :P

I've usually seen that in UR painter stone versions, not mono red imperial painter. That version usually runs more welders too. Do a search for painter stone and see if that is more your style.

[phoenix4]

I've usually seen that in UR painter stone versions, not mono red imperial painter. That version usually runs more welders too. Do a search for painter stone and see if that is more your style.

Well, one of the few danes, who had 4 recruiters, played a variety of singletons at one time, including 1 gamble and 1 wurmcoil, and he had fun with it, so i'm figuring that we could fit it in, i mean..... We can get to 6 mana relatively easily? :)

[Ish]

With moon effects actually getting to 6 mana is tough. Weldering the wurmcoil into play seems more likely.

[jandax]

That's the point. I played Wurmcoil and welder at Ghent and it was boss-like when it gets going. As a discard outlet I ran Gamble, only lived the dream once topdecking Gamble for WCE so I could Welder it back in. And simply just one WCE, it's far too clunky and you never really want to draw it. NOwadays Faithless Looting is taking over what Gamble used to do, and is far better at being a discard outlet. In all it's a sweet card and I had a lot of fun with it, Welder can do nasty things with it but it's just clunky no matter how you set it up. Even as a one-of. End of the day it's great fun, but not really where the deck wants to be going.

[Kap'n Cook]

I've added a few more matchup guides to the front page. I have kept them pretty general in terms of strategy and boarding tips since everyone's list is different but I can make them more detailed if people want. As always if anyone has questions or wants to discuss a matchup just post in the thread.


To answer the Revoker question asked a few days ago:

What I realized was the matchups where Lightning bolts were preferable to Phyrexian Revoker were already in our favor to begin with and having lightning bolts just made them even better. Revoker helps bring the unfavorable matchups closer to even in game 1. Storm, Griselbrand, Sneak, Deed decks, Planeswalkers etc

Against the fair decks, Lightning Bolt hardly ever gets countered or discarded. All it serves to do is stall the opponent a little bit longer. Revoker at least forces the opponent to deal with it one way or another. Between 2 Revokers and 3 Welders in my list, the opponent has so many creatures they'll want to kill off. Their hand will be pretty much depleted by the time the combo is ready to go.

[Ish]

Good Info Kap'n!

The card count choices I'm most wish-washy on after playing 1 large (50+) and several smaller tournaments now are

18 or 19 Land?
1 or 2 Mox/Petal? in conjunction with the land count
2 or 3 Welder?
2 or 3 SDT?
3 or 4 Faithless Looting?
1 or 2 Magus?

I'll probably be adjusting these numbers constantly over the next months.

With punishing Jund being popular, Magus just feals wonky on turn 1. Blood Moon, yes all day, but not Magus all the time. Thats the one card I'm kind of fine with cutting it down to 1. And so far I've been pretty happy with 4 looting/2 top... but am swayed by the experienced players discussing the power of 3 top here.

[DrewliusMaximus]

Hey guys. Sorry I've been away for so long, but work won't allow magic too much right now.

I wanted to post about Young Pyromancer though. I could see him in a Looting build.

[rancOr_]

I play this deck aswell and about the tops.. I started with 2-3 and upped them over time to the full set. I feel like top is one the best cards in this deck because a) u don't play bs and can see a lot of extra cards with top with enough mana to actually use it and b) u can easily get rid of excessive sdt with either fetches(most lists play 4-5), recruiters and grindstone manipulation. That being said, I wouldn't go below 3 tops and prefer the card over looting all day. Greetings-

[Ish]

Been testing 3 top / 3 looting (instead of 2/4) and definitely happy with the tops again!

[cadaver]

I've been runnin a 3/3/3 split top, looting, magma jet and its runs very smoothly. Looting and jet help clear the chaff and can help get those extra unneeded tops out the way

[jandax]

Okay guys, been combing this thread and this Saturday I'm gonna paint stuff for the first time in a year or so. I took a lot of inspiration from Seth/Drew/Kook's lists on the front page, at least I wanted to take the best of all worlds for my own build. Just to clarify, Drew's conservative list didn't fit my style, and I've tested Enlightened Tutor and was just too clunky. What I've also noticed is the lack of Chrome Mox in the last few pages of discussion and lists as well as on the OP. Any and all commentary is welcome, as I don't have the time to test before Saturday to any sort of lengthy degree. If any of you question or refuse to accept any numbers in the list, please say so!

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Red Fetches
9 Mountain

4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Goblin Welder
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage

4 Blood Moon
4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Chrome Mox

4 Faithless Looting
3 Pyroblast
4 Red Elemental Blast

The board
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Pyroblast
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Ratchet Bomb

Here's my defense for card choices based on my own play style (aggressive mulligan for a quick combo or turn 1 moon) and experience with the deck:

Mana base
I dropped the Welder theme I used to run so 8 Sol Land and just two fetches for shuffling with Tops is all that's needed. 19 land seems to be on the boarder of greedy and not enough. 18 was what I used to run but that was also with three Moxen, so a basic has replaced a Mox. I'm still open to Lotus Petal if it has been as good as others have said.

Things that don't change
Sets of Recruiters, Moons, Painters, Stones, SSG. The meat of the deck isn't going anywhere.

Critters
Jaya: She's awesome. I've found myself wanting more, but two maindeck is a bit much. She's always got a place in my sideboard. No need to list stuff she can do.
Revoker: It's creeping in to the same catagory as Jaya, so much utility, so little drawback. Two maindeck is a new number for me, and I'm pretty sure it's going to help a lot of Game One situations.
Welder: Down to one. I used to run 3 with WCE and Ancient Dens, but there's not enough room in the deck for clunk nowadays. Had a good run, Welder can do some sick stuff, but he's now just my kicker with a golden foot.

Things up in the air
4 Faithless Looting: Going somewhat out on a limb, but I think 4 Looting with 3 Tops is plenty to shuffle through chaff on the top of the deck, all the while being synergetic with other interactions built within the deck.
3 Top: Sweet card. Two is too few, four seems a bit much.
7 Blasts: Seven is my maindeck limit. I understand arguments for six, and five is just missing the point of the deck.

The Sideboard
Four Bridges and Thorns aren't changing. Sweet cards are sweet and keep iPainter alive when it would otherwise be dead.

Only three graveyard hate cards. There's the split for the tutorable option with Macabre.

Ratchet Bomb: a good sweeper, and I'm not opposed to running a Martyr of Ashes.

An extra Jaya, for when the first one gets killed in the matchups where you gotta play hard control.

The 8th blast is loose but generally it'll be more applicable than some specific hate card. This will be the first card I cut in the 75 for something else.

Like I said, I play the deck to its strengths. I mulligan a lot and know most matchups to be able to shift between combo/control/beatdown when necessary. Any commentary is most welcome, thanks!

[phoenix4]

Well Jandax... ;)

I'm not a fan of playing only 5 moon effects... I feel like 7 is a bare minimum for this deck.... My view of the deck:

Get the combo running ASAP or destroy 90% of your OP's game, by hitting that moon, turn 1... That being said, if you're willing to mulligan to 4 or 5 cards, I would like to know, what your thoughts are on the chances that you'd get dazed og FoW'ed with only 1 or 2 cards left in your hand??

I've tried the heavier Welder version, and if it suits some of you guys out there, fine by me and keep playing that version - ;) - but I'm agreeing with J here, by playing 1 G-Welder. The double Phyrexian Revoker is something I'm trying again.

As far as your SB goes..
Thorn and Bridges are good, but are you so satisfied with your main, that you're willing to accept the lack of SB cards to strengthen different MU's?

[jandax]

Jund and RUG is quite popular here, so I'm willing to concede the awesomesauce that is the Turn One Moon Effect for a little more stability. I shaved two Magi (Maguses?) from my old build where I did have seven moon effects. Willing to give the benefit of the doubt to those who have consciously made that choice. Sound logic. But I do want to clarify that while I am willing to mulligan to five or four, without seven moon effects it's less likely I'll go down that low, unless it is the ol' Sol Land Hand. Chances are probable that I'd get my Turn One bidness countered should I be playing that deck. But again that is the point, right? Jam that turn one Moon or Painter for a turn two combo when you win the die roll. With this deck I don't really consider what they have unless I have information. Sure, I think given 100 rounds of Legacy, one could expect to be blown out more than once. But this deck also blows others out of the water turn one as well. I just play it aggressive and accept the consequences. I've won multiple games on four card hands, and many more on five and six cards. Consequently, I've lost many with seven card hands, so where does that leave us? With a numbers game, and by posting my list I'm trying to get as close to perfection with that game.

As for my sideboard, the only set things are the four Thorns and Bridges. That leaves the other seven slots open. Three for GY hate, two sweepers and two maindeck reinforcements. Know anything I'm not addressing?

[Ish]

@jandax

Here's what I see as awkward in the list. 1 Welder, 4 faithless looting. Faithless looting is card disadvantage, without abusing the graveyard it's not very good.

From experience looting is an awful top deck, and without welder can make for a dead card sometimes. I tried 4 for a bit and found it was just too much discarding.

@pheonix

7 moon effects sounds great on paper but in practice isn't always that great. In some matches it CAN be game ending, others it can be worthless. 4 blood moon is 100% correct. After that the number for Magus is debatable. He dies to bolt and punishing fire; Very relevant. A basic plains also ends him.

[jandax]

I realise 4 Looting might be too much, but there's also a lot of chaff that can potentially be discarded. Looting does make a horrible topdeck, but so does Blood Moon, Chrome Mox, a Sol Land (in most cases) and Welder builds are just too clunky for me even with Looting. I'm willing to sacrifice synergy for consistency. That may sound counter productive with so many Faithless Looting, but Goblin Welder isn't the answer to that problem.

[Ish]

Made a slight alteration for test. I'm trying out 2 Gamble. They are paired with 3 SDT and no other "draw or filtering" spells.

From testing I'm liking them better than looting, especially in early turns with a full grip, or obviously with an active welder.

[jandax]

Gamble is better paired with Welders. I ran three in my old build and it's just a blast to play. Sometimes they hit, sometimes they don't. And every now and then a top decked Gamble turned itself into a Wurmcoil Engine that went straight to the 'yard for Welder shenanigans. Looting is IMHO better at sifting through chaff for this deck.

[DrewliusMaximus]

I haven't been able to play very much recently, but I did make it to the local tourney yesterday. I had tried Firebolt in the last two or three events I attended, but this time I went back to 3 Magma Jets in the burn slots. I actually liked the Firebolts, but I think I prefer the scrying since I still find myself losing some games (and thus matches) to dead draws.

So I ran the same list as I posted at the beginning of the thread, but in anticipation of the rules changes, I wanted to test a replacement for the single Metamorph so I experimented with a third Revoker. The 2/1 body for our dork-beatdown strategy is acceptable even when not disrupting, and although I had Revoker several times yesterday when he wasn't really Revoking anything, he quickened my clock and helped double block a Mongoose.

If Metamorph can no longer deal with Jitte, Eldrazi, etc, then he may not be worth it. I'm guessing that the new rules might encourage more Jitte and Liliana among other things, so an extra Revoker might come in handy.

If three Revokers ends up being overkill, then there will be a slot available, and the first options to me would be a sixth Blast or maybe aggro option like Kargan Dragonlord, Figure of Destiny, or even Wildfire Emissary (immune to lots of removal including Abrupt Decay).

Anyone else thinking about the new rules' impact for iPainter?

[phoenix4]

@Drewlius: I've always thought of the metamoprh, as a reactive card, towards what your OP is playing, and with the rule change, I can't think of anything else than to use the metamorph on your own stuff = cut it!

I'm going to try and make a build, which have similarities with death and taxes in terms of using the vial, to trick the OP.
I think I've might even try 4 revokers main :D

[rancOr_]

Just like to give some comments as I think some things related to recent posted lists are way off.. First of all 1) NEVER play this deck without 7 moon effects( 4blood moon, 3magus of the moon) are optimal. This is what this deck should try to do. 2) Play with minimum 3 SDT. I find it MVP in this deck u got so many interactions with it( recruiter,grindstone,fetches,1welder) and it is needed to keep you going. Which gets me to #3 I'm just gonna say it : I hate looting in this deck. Its card disadvantage and unless u are running multiple welders/ wurmcoil (which I don't like at all) u are just hymning yourself in some scenarios. It's also a pretty bad topdeck. This deck is supposed to be as consistent and efficient as possible and faithless looting is just the opposite of that. SDT is always way better then faithless looting will ever be. So don't play looting or up the SDT. 4) I see the latests lists here have cut the lightning bolts for faithless looting. This is not good.. The main goal is to get a moon effect going and/or combo out. As the #1 one drop is deathrite shaman atm which interferes with moons I'd like to be able to bolt it. Same goes for dark confidant. These 2 creatures need to die ASAP. If you are on the draw and can t1 bolt deathrite and lay a moon turn 2/3 ur in a way better position as when they have active deathrite obviously. As conclusion I can only advise u to play 7moon effects, 3top min. , no faithless looting and 4lightning bolt. I'm sure the results won't be bad with such list. Greetings

[jandax]

:frown:

Another compelling argument.

Do you run any other library manipulation than 3 tops? And how many shuffle effects (inc. recruiters et al) do you like with a 4 Moon, 3 STD, 4 Bolt build?

[Kap'n Cook]

Just like to give some comments as I think some things related to recent posted lists are way off.. First of all 1) NEVER play this deck without 7 moon effects( 4blood moon, 3magus of the moon) are optimal. This is what this deck should try to do. 2) Play with minimum 3 SDT. I find it MVP in this deck u got so many interactions with it( recruiter,grindstone,fetches,1welder) and it is needed to keep you going. Which gets me to #3 I'm just gonna say it : I hate looting in this deck. Its card disadvantage and unless u are running multiple welders/ wurmcoil (which I don't like at all) u are just hymning yourself in some scenarios. It's also a pretty bad topdeck. This deck is supposed to be as consistent and efficient as possible and faithless looting is just the opposite of that. SDT is always way better then faithless looting will ever be. So don't play looting or up the SDT. 4) I see the latests lists here have cut the lightning bolts for faithless looting. This is not good.. The main goal is to get a moon effect going and/or combo out. As the #1 one drop is deathrite shaman atm which interferes with moons I'd like to be able to bolt it. Same goes for dark confidant. These 2 creatures need to die ASAP. If you are on the draw and can t1 bolt deathrite and lay a moon turn 2/3 ur in a way better position as when they have active deathrite obviously. As conclusion I can only advise u to play 7 moon effects, 3top min. , no faithless looting and 4 lightning bolt. I'm sure the results won't be bad with such list. Greetings

1) I guess it needs to be repeated yet again. Magus is not Blood Moon. 3 Magus on top of 4 moons is a variation, not an optimization.

2 and 3) You love top, hate looting. Thanks for sharing. SDT is great, no arguments here. Always better than looting? Not at all. Looting, when played correctly, is card selection or card advantage. If you feel like you are hymning yourself, you are playing it wrong.

4) You like burn spells to supplement your heavy moon plan, great. I do too, just not as much as other cards for the current metagame. This was all already mentioned in the opening post by Drew. Side note: Looting is not the card being added in place of lightning bolt in 'recent builds'


You say the results won't be bad with your choices. You'll do fine since it seems you choices are for a meta of only Deathblade/Shardless Bug and nothing else. But I advise actually learning how to play other variations on the deck (my Welder build, Seth's tutor build, even Drew's scry build) before trashing them.



Regarding Metamorph and Rules change:

Drew I think you will definitely want the extra blast. For decks like Show and Tell and Jitte (not counting other random legendary corner cases like Sigarda in Maverick/Nic Fit or even Thalia to an extent) the usual course of action in the past was recruiting up a pre-emptive metamorph. Now however, the plan against Jitte has to change to grabbing a Painter and blasting it or grabbing Revoker if no blast is available and pray they don't remove it. The new Show and Tell plan is revoker on sneak attack and making sure Show and Tell can't resolve no matter what, so the blast should help out a bunch.

Other than that Metamorph remains the same and there is certainly something to be said for blocking goyf forever, acting as another revoker/painter/vandal/recruiter if need be, or copying whatever cool shit the opponent has and using it yourself. Maybe it will be better for me than others due to Welder but I believe it should still remain in contention for a slot, it's uses just won't be as diverse as they used to be and I will certainly try other combinations out.

Since everyone should be running ensnaring bridge, it might make the most sense to add in another Jaya in place of metamorph to aid the bridge plan. Just my thoughts.

Kapn

[Ish]

I've dropped metamorph about 2 weeks ago in preparation for the rules change, and the least played card in the deck for me. I havnt missed him, and only really want him to kill SnT legendary... But mono blue is SO much better no one should be playing sneak and show anyway. And metamorph does nothing in that match.

Blocking a goyf was the best thing my metamorph ever did.

As for looting and such. I played them heavily for a bit, was a proponent, and now don't like them. I was required to pitch to many cards too many times. Still playing with 2 gamble 3 SDT. Currently no burn in my list.

[DrewliusMaximus]

The bottom line with Looting is that it is card disadvantage unless you support it with active Welders or Squee or something. I think you want 2 or more Welders before considering Looting.

@phoenix4 - Yep, Metamorph is definitely reactive although this deck does give him a great homemade target in Recruiter.

I am cutting him for now though since he's going to be a bit weaker, and Ish is right about Omnitell representing a larger portion of the Show and Tell decks.

It's pretty much just a choice between a 3rd Revoker or 6th MD Blast for me. Kap'n, I definitely see your point about just getting more counters and instant-speed vindicates and the emergence of Omnitell makes Blasts even better. But Revoker is less conditional, which I like in the MD. I played against Omnitell this weekend too, and Revoker's clock was very useful even though he didn't disrupt anything.

[Moomba]

At the moment I'm just having problems putting together a sideboard that I can really look at and say "Yeah, that'll do". I keep changing it over and over again.

Main
1x Goblin Welder
4x Imperial Recruiter
1x Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1x Magus of the Moon
4x Painter's Servant
2x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Simian Spirit Guide
1x Spellskite
3x Enlightened Tutor
4x Pyroblast
3x Red Elemental Blast
4x Grindstone
1x Lotus Petal
1x Peacekeeper
2x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Blood Moon
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Arid Mesa
4x City of Traitors
6x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Plateau

Sideboard
3x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Faerie Macabre
1x Manic Vandal
1x Koth of the Hammer
2x Ratchet Bomb
1x Red Elemental Blast
1x Stingscourger
3x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Tormod's Crypt

Decided to try the white splash for the enlightened tutor and I'm really liking it, and opens up Peacekeeper and Canonist. Still trying to decide if I want some burn in the sb, or just turn it into a more recruiter package than it already is.

[sroncor1]

I would suggest Rest in Peace in the board as a four of along with a singleton Helm of Obediance. Rest in peace is still really strong and it adds more combo pieces and answers to a bunch of problems.

Seth

[Moomba]

I would suggest Rest in Peace in the board as a four of along with a singleton Helm of Obediance. Rest in peace is still really strong and it adds more combo pieces and answers to a bunch of problems.

Seth

Yeah, as you can tell, my list is closest to yours. Was thinking about that sideboard idea, will try it out.

3x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Helm of Obedience
2x Ratchet Bomb
4x Rest in Peace
4x Thorn of Amethyst

Something more like that?

[trollking21]

My friend has a desire to build this deck, but doesn't have the cash to drop on imperial recruiters. His budget is about 400 can someone give a recruiter less deck list? Or is even worth his time to build without recruiters

[jandax]

He can probably get a set of DCI recruiters for 400. Next to that, City or Traitor and Ancient tombs will be another bill or two, from there the another couple bills to fill out the rest of the 75. I'd say that your friend needs to save up more. Nowadays it takes a while to track down recruiters or get the money ready for the transaction. Some people got theirs way back in the day and it wasn't so painful. It took me almost two years to piece the deck together, one weekend at a Legacy GP and I had the deck sans Recruiters. Those took a bit longer to find for a decent price. It's a fun project and rewarding when you finally sleeve up that last Recruiter.

[Kap'n Cook]

My friend has a desire to build this deck, but doesn't have the cash to drop on imperial recruiters. His budget is about 400 can someone give a recruiter less deck list? Or is even worth his time to build without recruiters

A while back I priced out the deck because I was bored at work and you could buy mono-red for around 800 I believe (more or less depending on how much time you want to spend on ebay), which actually makes it one of the more budget friendly decks. Kinda weird since it used to be the exact opposite. If I remember, that includes a few fetches and the sideboard as well.

It's not really worth putting together a recruiter-less build unless he actually plans to follow through on getting them. You can try, but then it becomes a weird variation on welder-mud with a million gambles/enlightened tutors and faithless lootings ruining your day since you can't recruit your singleton creatures like jaya.

[Esper3k]

Yeah, the judge promo Imperial Recruiters are surprisingly affordable right now. Considering picking some up myself.

[trollking21]

Thanks everybody
He intendes to finish the deck but wanted to know if they're was a middle ground in which the deck was viable for play
Also I didn't know the judge foil was as cheap as it was thanks guys

[.dk]

You can also find Japanese Portal Imperial Recruiters around for a much more reasonable price than English ones if you hate playing with foils (like me).

I picked up one for $125 at GP KC and just won another on ebay last night for $104. Should be able un-proxy the rest of this soon to start jamming at LGS. Looking forward to it as it seems like this deck has all the right tools to attack the current meta.

[DrewliusMaximus]

Yeah, the judge promo Imperial Recruiters are surprisingly affordable right now. Considering picking some up myself.

Do it Esper! Mirror match action.

It is crazy though how the combination of promo Recruiters and other cards' constantly rising prices have made iPainter "affordable".

[Esper3k]

Do it Esper! Mirror match action.

It is crazy though how the combination of promo Recruiters and other cards' constantly rising prices have made iPainter "affordable".

Heh they're just affordable relative to the price of the P3k ones. We're still talking dual land prices here :)

[Kap'n Cook]

Yesterday I was thinking about replacements for metamorph (I may still keep it I'm not really sure at all) and wondered if anyone has used Siege Gang? I haven't tested him at all so don't judge too hard, but he could be a good sideboard card for grindy creature mirrors or as a huge clock against slower decks or even help kill under a bridge basically as a supplemental card to Koth that can be tutored.

I am going to try out a wide variety of different creatures, many of which I have used in the past but since dropped. Contenders include 2nd Jaya, another Magus, Siege Gang, Spellskite, V. Heretic (mainly Jitte at this point), 4th ensnaring bridge, and try out the LD Avalanche riders/goblin settler. Anyone else have any other creatures to suggest?

Also, for anyone who still wants burn, Parch might work well

[jandax]

Why don't you play four Bridges?

[phoenix4]

I know it's a cute card, but I always wanted to make Sirocco work in the deck :D

[jandax]

Is there an Errata on that?

[phoenix4]

Is there an Errata on that?

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=3463

[jandax]

THought so. I could see this being a house with the Spiral Tide matchup. Otherwise, I think I'd rather have some Blasts? :frown:

Would be worth it just to run the card at a local and slam it for reaction

[Kap'n Cook]

Why don't you play four Bridges?

I probably should but it has always come down to board space. Finding a bridge through looting and grindstoning myself with 3 welders hasn't really been an issue either.

[jandax]

I probably should but it has always come down to board space. Finding a bridge through looting and grindstoning myself with 3 welders hasn't really been an issue either.

Oh yeah, forgot your build was Welder friendly. Makes sense

[JO_MTG]

HI

Have been playing with this deck for a long time, I never posted but read the forum a few time, I have a few questions

1. How do you beat the burn deck? UR ou R? Is it possible or everyone has a bad match up and that it, the only momment were I was able to beat them was with the white splash and warth in the bord.

2. I do not get why people are only running 2-3 fetch, I always run like 6-7, It help to look for better cards with the tops.

3. How many moon should I run, I usuly run around 6 (3 magus, 3 blood), Agains Rug I never cast them turn one, I always want to be able to pay for daze what are your tought on that.

4. Why torn of amethyste over the sphere or resistance since the sphere get elfe.

5. How is revoker better then Grim and welder in your metha,

I have a few more but that it for now

[jandax]

No offense man, but it doesn't seem that you've been playing this deck for a while.

More on the Burn question:

It's a bad match up. But all the decks on the OP are equipped to win the match up. You definitely have to play the control, and winning usually consists of staying alive long enough to combo them out. If they like to burn your 1/1's and 2/2's then consider it like playing a slew of Healing Salves. If you know a good Burn player then I'd suggest sitting down to a nice session of play testing with them.

Comb through the OP, this matchup is addressed from three different proponents' perspective.

[Kap'n Cook]

HI

Have been playing with this deck for a long time, I never posted but read the forum a few time, I have a few questions

1. How do you beat the burn deck? UR ou R? Is it possible or everyone has a bad match up and that it, the only momment were I was able to beat them was with the white splash and warth in the bord.

2. I do not get why people are only running 2-3 fetch, I always run like 6-7, It help to look for better cards with the tops.

3. How many moon should I run, I usuly run around 6 (3 magus, 3 blood), Agains Rug I never cast them turn one, I always want to be able to pay for daze what are your tought on that.

4. Why torn of amethyste over the sphere or resistance since the sphere get elfe.

5. How is revoker better then Grim and welder in your metha,

I have a few more but that it for now

I agree with Jandax here. If you have been reading here you should know the answer to most of these questions.

1) read my summary opening page

2) So you have 6-7 fetches, 7-8 sol lands, maybe great furnace? So that leaves you with like 4-ish mountains? Pretty greedy and life loss adds up.

3) There is no reason to run less than 4 blood moons. If you want 6 moons, 4 bm-2 mag is the right split. Rug you should not leave Magus in postboard.

4) thorn does not stop painters, recruiters etc. Sphere would be overkill and elves can probably still generate enough mana after a few turns. Maybe someone else can weigh in since I have never liked thorn that much.

5) grim lavamancer? Why not another Jaya in that case since she handles more issues. Revoker stops Sneak attack, Griselbrand, so many unfair things etc. the list goes on and on. Welder rescues killed artifacts and increases synergy. Lavamancer sits there looking like a bitch.

[JO_MTG]

Thanks a lot for your answers, I,ll post my thought on your comments to encourage discutions

Sorry english is my second language so I might have difficulty explaining my point, I want to work on getting this deck better and understanding our different card choice.

There is the metha at my local shop
1-3 RUG
2-3 BUG
2 Stone blade
1 ELFE
2 Goblin
1 Burn
1 UR Burn
1 ww
1 dredge
1 Reanimator (Tin FIn with Emrakul)
1 UW Counter top
1 Storm somethime

I rarely see Emrakul exept in the reanimator deck


1) read my summary opening pag. Was done a long time Ago and more recently

2) So you have 6-7 fetches, 7-8 sol lands, maybe great furnace? So that leaves you with like 4-ish mountains? Pretty greedy and life loss adds up. Yes exactly 4 basic, I do not play mox... How is it gready to have only 4 mountain ? When do you need more then that, and most of the time in the end game your fetch are mountain under the blood moon

3) There is no reason to run less than 4 blood moons. If you want 6 moons, 4 bm-2 mag is the right split. Rug you should not leave Magus in postboard. Yes there a reason the second blood moon is completly dead, the second magus attack, But I think your right I guess I should have enought time to find what I need to kill my oponent befor they get out of the lock and the moon lock the RUG player

4) thorn does not stop painters, recruiters etc. Sphere would be overkill and elves can probably still generate enough mana after a few turns. Maybe someone else can weigh in since I have never liked thorn that much. What is your sidebord option, for storm and elfe

5) grim lavamancer? Why not another Jaya in that case since she handles more issues. Revoker stops Sneak attack, Griselbrand, so many unfair things etc. the list goes on and on. Welder rescues killed artifacts and increases synergy. Lavamancer sits there looking like a bitch.

Lavalanver come online befor it,s to late,
- kill Deathrithe
- Kill elfe
- Kill stoneforge Befor they drop the equipment
-Also shrink GOyf

[jandax]

Thanks a lot for your answers, I,ll post my thought on your comments to encourage discutions

Sorry english is my second language so I might have difficulty explaining my point, I want to work on getting this deck better and understanding our different card choice.

There is the metha at my local shop
1-3 RUG
2-3 BUG
2 Stone blade
1 ELFE
2 Goblin
1 Burn
1 UR Burn
1 ww
1 dredge
1 Reanimator (Tin FIn with Emrakul)
1 UW Counter top
1 Storm somethime

I rarely see Emrakul exept in the reanimator deck


1) read my summary opening pag. Was done a long time Ago and more recently

2) So you have 6-7 fetches, 7-8 sol lands, maybe great furnace? So that leaves you with like 4-ish mountains? Pretty greedy and life loss adds up. Yes exactly 4 basic, I do not play mox... How is it gready to have only 4 mountain ? When do you need more then that, and most of the time in the end game your fetch are mountain under the blood moon

3) There is no reason to run less than 4 blood moons. If you want 6 moons, 4 bm-2 mag is the right split. Rug you should not leave Magus in postboard. Yes there a reason the second blood moon is completly dead, the second magus attack, But I think your right I guess I should have enought time to find what I need to kill my oponent befor they get out of the lock and the moon lock the RUG player

4) thorn does not stop painters, recruiters etc. Sphere would be overkill and elves can probably still generate enough mana after a few turns. Maybe someone else can weigh in since I have never liked thorn that much. What is your sidebord option, for storm and elfe

5) grim lavamancer? Why not another Jaya in that case since she handles more issues. Revoker stops Sneak attack, Griselbrand, so many unfair things etc. the list goes on and on. Welder rescues killed artifacts and increases synergy. Lavamancer sits there looking like a bitch.

Lavalanver come online befor it,s to late,
- kill Deathrithe
- Kill elfe
- Kill stoneforge Befor they drop the equipment
-Also shrink GOyf

I'll take a stab at this

If your local meta consists of two or three burn decks, why really worry? Serious question. I'd focus more on being able to handle the rest of the field adequately. Burn is winnable, but not much fun.

1) Keep reading it. Over and over. Not saying you haven't, but it appears you haven't absorbed much of the important info on the front page, so I'd keep at it.

2)You need to play at least two Mox. More to follow. It's not greedy to have 4 basics, it's greedy to have more than four fetchlands. Life loss matters, it's the only way you're staying alive.

3)Multiple Moons are dead, but not if you have Mox in your list. That's one of the interactions you miss. Moxes turn dead cards into resources. Plus, Magus gets killed by tons of removal in all those decks you run. How many decks in your meta can easily remove a resolved Blood Moon (Enchantment)?

4) Thorns help slow down Storm enough for iPainter to do its thing. Ensnaring Bridge helps stop hoards of elves.

5)Jaya does all that and with a much better interaction with parts of your deck than Lavaman. If you don't know how nuts Jaya is, you're holding Lavaman on a way high standard. too high.

Look. You mean well. And please take this as objective advice, not a personal attack:

Trust the OP. Those three guys know what they're doing and you are trying to reinvent the wheel. There are three lists on the OP, one controlly, one Welder, and one generic, all proven, all tuned. Choose one that suits your style of play and copy it exactly. Play a few tournaments with that list, and once you begin to realize what the deck is trying to do, you'll realize your personal card choices discussed now are suboptimal and you're switching things out based on pride and ignorance (again, not attacking you, you need to get over this hump before you can play the deck well)

Hope this helps, and keep asking questions. It's the only way to get better

[sroncor1]

Easy guys he has valid questions.

1. Burn is rough. I think jack has had more success than me but even against terrible players I am probably below 30 percent. White splash would help for sure. It has gotten better after I started using Rest in Peace and Helm of Obediance as it is a combo they can't stop. The up side of that is rest in Peace is the best at what it does and it has so many applications that you are only wasting one sideboard slot to help you out. Somehing else to try is figure of destiny. He has fallen out of favor recently but he was also strong when run as a three of against burn. He can get huge, curves beautifully with the deck and can require multiple cards to kill. And that is the key, think of burn as a shitty combo deck played by bad players. You want to slow down it's critical turn( I imagine it's still someplace around turn 4) while putting the combo together in your hand and make mana. If you are on white Hollywood fucked around with Radiant Dragoons for a while in the match up. I am old and forgetful anymore so I don't remember the details but it's worth a look.

I agree people should run more fetches. For me I run 2 plateau and so I run five fetch land( onslaught of course) and really like it. I run 19 total lands hough which is more than Jack and some other guys. I also have got a 61 card deck these days. I'm overall really happy with the mana although sometimes you get burned but that is the cost of a sol land mana base.

[sroncor1]

Sorry for the double post but my phone is being lamer than a pair of jorts.

I have never found Grim Lavarmancer, I assume that is what you mean rather than Grim Tutor or Grim Monolith. We don't run enough instants to make him usable more than twice really. It happens sometimes but I found not worth he effort. If you don want an extra Jaya bc the card disadvantage is noteworthy if not acceptable try spinal villain. He pops a bunch of shit you care about and becomes awesome with painter.

I'm staying out of the thorn debate as most people know my thoughts. I do hink you shouldn't waste your time with it in a white splash. Use the fact that you are faster and more consistent on the combo plan to your advantage. Might as well maximize the advantage of the build.

And about the moons. I think anything less than six is wrong. I also think anything less than 4 blood moons is wrong. The fact you have to remember, if you played the first Blood Moon correctly and effectively locked them out of mana the one dead card in your hand is ok bc they have four or more. It was sort of like old chalice decks. Once you dropped one the virtual card advantage could be huge that you can handle the dead draws of addition pieces.

Hope this helps

Seth

[Dice_Box]

Question for the floor:

I saw a deck the other day, splashed blue for Trinket Mage. I like the idea but I would rather not splash blue. What do people think about going white for cards like Enlightened Tutor?

[Kap'n Cook]

@Jo MTG

Sorry man, Seth is right. I was a little hostile but it was mainly because the same questions keep popping up from new players.

Looking at your meta it is certainly understandable why you favor Lavamancer over Welder or Revoker. You have massive amounts of Burn/cheap creature spells in your meta and basically no Show and Tell, discard, planeswalkers, or storm . In the overall metagame I wholeheartedly say Lavamancer is wrong since discard is much more prevalent than a million burn players. And I guess that is the purpose of your high fetchland count. When I said it was greedy running that many, I didn't really mean because you were going to run out of mountains. More along the lines of Fetch damage and Tomb damage really really adds up fast. It looks like it wouldn't be a big deal, but so many times you just take a huge attack without blockers and then combo at 1 or 2 life. Not to mention getting fetches stifled sucks especially in this deck since you want to curve to 3 and 4 mana turns 2 and 3. In your meta I think running 4 ensnaring Bridge mainboard is the stone cold nuts.

For your question about storm, I use Leyline of Sanctity not because it is the best hate card, but because it helps much more against bad matchups like Burn, Belcher, and Black Discard. It's an added benefit that it is a major nuisance to storm. If I had unlimited sideboard space I would play thorns and Trinispheres, but I can't. I also run a Martyr of Ashes to deal with Empty the Warrens tokens. Martyr also applies to Zoo, Deathblade, Death and Taxes, and Tribal (not merfolk). So this is also another go-to card against Elves to clear their board, which answers your other question. Comboing off is still the number one plan since all the good elves lists don't run Emrakul anymore.

@Dicebox

I believe Drew tried a singleton Trinket Mage and discussed it in the old thread. He tweaked it so he ran 4 lotus petals and fewer SSG and a few volcs. Seth is the expert on splashing, especially enlightened tutor so I'll let him answer whatever questions you have.



Also I know I asked it already but we all got sidetracked. Anyone ever used Siege-Gang Commander? The only reason I am even considering him is because I already have 3 welders to pair him with.

[sroncor1]

So the trinket Mage idea was really strong about three years ago. Before Jace and Stoneforge and the like the 2/2 body mattered. And his utility to grab things like SDT, grindstone, and EE could really punish tempo decks and rock style decks. But with delver, knights, and deathrite shamen his value is lower. Yes he gives card advantage and utility but at a substantial cost of tempo. The format as a whole has actually speed up even though cards like daze have been pushed to the periphery. In that setting the mana instability is not offset by his strengths. E tutor is basically better, especially since counterbalance isn't played much. It gets even more cards, smaller loss of tempo and traditional card advantage continues to become less important as the game advances. (Note that last statement is most applicable for Legacy, in Vintage A Recall is still a top 3 card). Now metas can change so it is possible that Trinket Mage may be good again.

About Chrome Mox, I really dislike the card anymore. It is strongest in all in moon hands which to be honest you shouldnt always keep. Maybe In Non splash lists the speed is worth the risk. It is also better as you maximize welder. I have been using Lotus petal and find it to be amazing. I highly suggest everyone try that card out. It is even stronger in splash lists. The problem with Chrome Mox is that most often you don't want to pitch your gas to it. And that often leaves blasts and SSG. Which ironically os the wrong cards most of the time to pitch to it. Not to mention it make mulling harder.

Seth

[jandax]

So are you saying that Chrome Mox in general is bad? I know exactly what you mean about pitching business to Mox, but indeed in a mono-red build it's necessary to power stuff out.

What about a Lotus Petal/Mox split? From my experience, exactly one Mox a match is probably good (roughly 30 tourney matches and lots of play testing against valid decks with decent players).

And again I wasn't trying to be hard on JO MTG, I just wanted to drive home points; these questions have already have been asked and answered, he needs to be open minded and accept known lists before he goes and tries to reinvent the wheel. In the end it's going to save time and hassel and it'll show him what is in the deck and better yet, why it's there.

[JO_MTG]

So are you saying that Chrome Mox in general is bad? I know exactly what you mean about pitching business to Mox, but indeed in a mono-red build it's necessary to power stuff out.

What about a Lotus Petal/Mox split? From my experience, exactly one Mox a match is probably good (roughly 30 tourney matches and lots of play testing against valid decks with decent players).

And again I wasn't trying to be hard on JO MTG, I just wanted to drive home points; these questions have already have been asked and answered, he needs to be open minded and accept known lists before he goes and tries to reinvent the wheel. In the end it's going to save time and hassel and it'll show him what is in the deck and better yet, why it's there.


Jandax I've try over the last 2-3 years different combination of that deck and played in over 20 tournement and test it, IVe got some good finish, unfortunatly I do not live in the United States so my fnish didn't get put online (NO SCG, NO LEGACY GP) of course there all smaller tournement. Do not assume I have rejected the establish list without tring it. And from what I have seem ther not relly an establish list,since most player that posted ther list in the last few page have different list, if ther a consensus on one I will be happy to try it.


I have try version similar to the one your playing (rarely went higher then 3 looting),
Version withe chrome mox up to recently and even LED long time ago, I have try the petal, I loved it in the white version but other then that ... I'm not shure since after a turn 1 moon you find yourself one 1 mana in a deck that need 3, 2 if you land drop, and if your spell got counter you are most likely behind on cards and on bord, a pretty good mixt to get kill (including the fact that they got 1-2 turn to drop a treat).
the mox is similar problem but even worst since you are now down 2 extra cards

I find myself playing 20 lands, instead of 18 like lots of list does (and my initial list did), it start a little slower but it is more consistent in the long run, your risque is to get them to fech an extra basic and to be able to play. But they are probably in very bad shape any way.


I have also try the siege gang commander a long time ago, the problem was is casting cost 5 is a lot even in that deck, and he dosen't beet that well, for the beating job try Kragan, if you want to block over multiple turn just chain the recruiter, and has pointed out earlier to shoot creature Jaya is the Queen.


I'm glad that some other player like the higher fetch count, the life lost dosn't mather that much in my experience (unless it is burn) but has most said already those are awfull match up any way.

The 4 moon missing from my list was definitively a mistake, I do not remimber when I did that change but it wont happen again.

I'm still unshure between grim, revoker and second welder.

Thanks for the leyline idea, I will try that soon.

[jandax]

@JO

I didn't assume you were avoiding established lists. It's just that the questions you asked and the card choices you were putting forth made it seem to me (and others apparently) that you were putting the cart before the horse. You also didn't mention your experience in any depth, so sorry if I sounded crass ;) It really did come from a good place

About the OP: The three guys' lists (seth, drew and kapn) are all different variations of the deck. Everyone has their own style and these three lists can cater to just about every (Control, combo and aggro) style one favors.

Why don't you post your 75 and we can go through it? It's one thing to ask questions about cards, but another to ask about the list in which they fit and why they are better than other options, ya know?

[Dice_Box]

I just ordered stompy the other day. Turned out the only thing I was missing to make this was Imp and Grindstone. So lets say my bank is a touch lighter but now if I mix and match my cards I have a new deck. Now while I was looking at this I came to the belief that adding white would suit my play style. But as I have yet to play this deck other than a few online games I have no real experience to base my ideas from. So I thought I would post what I have come up with here and see if anyone can see any flaws I have missed.


Creatures:
2 Goblin Welder
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Magus of the Moon
4 Painter's Servant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Art:
4 Grindstone
1 Lotus Petal
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Blood Moon

Spells/Enchant:
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Blood Moon
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast

Land
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Arid Mesa
4 City of Traitors
5 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Plateau
3 Scalding Tarn


Sideboard
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Rest in Peace
2 Red Elemental Blast


The card that sells me most on this build is Thalia. I use her in my goblin build and I find her to be very strong. The card I am least sold on is Leonin due to his two white cast. The deck has another issue in that by adding so many fetches I can see Tomb hurting more than it should. I think it needs tweaking but the mix of Thalia and Enlightened make me intrigued. I want to try this. What do you all think?

Edit: Cards I like in the sideboard
Leonin Abunas
Ethersworn Canonist
Judge's Familiar
Devout Harpist

Mostly Abunas and Canonist jump at me.

[Kap'n Cook]

Two red is sometimes hard enough to come up. Two white seems nigh impossible. If you want both destroy target artifact AND enchantment you could try Devout Witness for a jaya like effect, Duergar Hedge-Mage for a Manic Vandal like effect, or Reliquary Monk for something different.

Chrome Mox vs Lotus Petal

I feel this is an apt summary: Chrome Mox is much better if your game plan involves dropping early moons, but introduces more variance into the deck. When Chrome Mox is good, it is better than lotus petal. When Chrome Mox is bad, it is worse than lotus petal. Simple as that. Drew also had a nice line in the op: Petal is essentially a 5th SSG. Many have opted for increased consistency over more explosive turns 1 and 2 with Chrome Mox. It is not incorrect to run Chrome Mox. Your build and play style just need to utilize it.

[sroncor1]

@jandax- I have moved away from the Chrome Mox but it def still has a place in the deck. A one of basically exactly what you want bc you either want it with a sol land or not at all. With 3 welders the extra moment in the deck will start to have value. I don't run three welders right now. The strongest card in the deck is Blood Moon, then Goblin Welder is a very close second. He is so strong that adding a few cards to maximize his potential is justified I think if you want to go that way. Jack loves him and rightfully so. He is a must kill creature for what he represents.

@Dice- I would cut the plains, add a Plateau, and then cut two fetches. Add in the 4th Ancient Tomb and a great furnace. I would also recommend having another Blood Moon.

Seth

[JO_MTG]

There my actual list (for now, thanks for your recommandation and discution)

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
6 Red Fetches
4 Mountain
2 Great Furnace


4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Goblin Welder
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker (or Grim Lavamancer)
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Kragan dragon lord

4 Blood Moon
4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top


4 Bolt
3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast

The board
4 leyline of Sanctity
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Martyr of ash
1 phyrexiam methamorph
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Faerie Macabre
2 spellskite

I'll just explain the Kragan, I've found that agains some match up you end up in attrition war without a grindstone into play I that case when both player are on top deck I found that a good beater ofter end up doing the job, in that case Kragan is the best that I had found.

Still debating the Grim or Revoker in the main,

In the board i defenitively want to try the leyline just to see.

[jandax]

There my actual list (for now, thanks for your recommandation and discution)

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
6 Red Fetches
4 Mountain
2 Great Furnace


4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Goblin Welder
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker (or Grim Lavamancer)
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Kragan dragon lord

4 Blood Moon
4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top


4 Bolt
3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast

The board
4 leyline of Sanctity
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Martyr of ash
1 phyrexiam methamorph
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Faerie Macabre
2 spellskite

I'll just explain the Kragan, I've found that agains some match up you end up in attrition war without a grindstone into play I that case when both player are on top deck I found that a good beater ofter end up doing the job, in that case Kragan is the best that I had found.

Still debating the Grim or Revoker in the main,

In the board i defenitively want to try the leyline just to see.

Pretty good list, I'd like to question you about a few card choices:

Manabase:

Looks good, but honestly I'd switch the numbers of fetches and basic lands. It's more fine tuning than strategy. There are just more off chances that you'll get wrecked by something off the wall if you run more fetches than basic lands. Honestly, don't worry as much about not having enough shuffle effects for Top. You have fetchlands, Recruiters, and Grindstone to manipulate your library.

As far as your maindeck flex slots:

Kargan is a nice choice, I know why you want to play him. Also consider Figure of Destiny. I run two Revokers main and love it, because in my meta they help in matchups that are more common than not.

Sideboard:

I think that any less than seven blasts in your 75 is an error. It's one of the reasons the deck is powerful, one mana instant-speed Destroy Target Permanent. Six main and one in the side should be good enough, but I run seven main and one in the side. I might even switch them out for the Spellskites because if you're trying to protect your combo, might as well do it with something that has reach in other aspects of the game, no?

Leyline of Sanctity: If you already aggressively mulligan, I see why you'd wanna run it. I did for a little while, and when it is in the opening hand it's golden. But you will more often than not mull into oblivion to find it. If you wanna switch out a flex slot main deck, add another welder and run Witchbane Orb. Sort of clunky at four mana but it does the trick and you don't have to ship otherwise keepable hands to find Leyline {the only reason to run the card}

I'm also a big fan of 4 Bridges. If you do welder stuff, three is acceptable, but again you don't have any library manipulation outside of Tops to find it.

Nitpicking with this deck is all about finding those 0.X% points to give a higher median against a metagame. If you can back up card choices with proven results, then you've likely made the right choice. Running pet cards over real cards is suboptimal.

[HPB_Eggo]

Two red is sometimes hard enough to come up. Two white seems nigh impossible. If you want both destroy target artifact AND enchantment you could try Devout Witness for a jaya like effect, Duergar Hedge-Mage for a Manic Vandal like effect, or Reliquary Monk for something different.

Isn't Wear // Tear another solid option in that spot, or is there something I'm missing?

[jandax]

Isn't Wear // Tear another solid option in that spot, or is there something I'm missing?

You can't tutor for Wear // Tear with Imperial Recruiter :wink:

[Moomba]

Played in a small 15 man tourney today, 5 rounds split to top 4 (came 3/4th btw) for a Ancestral Recall. Wasn't able to test my white splash this tournament (wasn't able to find another enlightened tutor and plateau) this was the list I used (pretty basic one)

4 Painters
4 Recruiters
4 Grindstone
4 SSG
4 Blood Moon
4 Pyroblast
3 REBs
3 SDT
2 Magma Jet
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Spellskite
1 Goblin Welder
1 Magus of Moon
1 Jaya
1 Lotus Petal
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Red Fetch
8 Mountain

SB
3 Ensnaring
4 Thorns of Amethyst
1 REB
1 Manic Vandal
1 Martyr of Ashes
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Koth
2 Rachet Bomb

R1 vs Merfolk 1-0

G1 Was on the draw. Looked at my opening hand with a beautiful turn one moon hand, but he decided to open, turn 1 island into vial and I knew what he was playing from there. Ended up grinding him. 1-0
G2 He had enough answers for what I wanted to throw at him 1-1
G3 Apperantly he had no answer to bridge in his sideboard, so he eventually got grinded. 2-1

R2 vs UR Landstill 1-1

G1 I lost to this deck the last tournament I played with this guy as well (stopped me from getting top 8 in that one) just too much counter and snapcaster's into bolts to kill what he didn't counter. 0-1
G2 Really hate playing against this match up, went pretty much same as game one, both were very very grindy as he won in time this one. 0-2

R3 vs Thopter Combo 2-1

G1 Phyrexian revoker on thopter = no fun for him, grinded him out easily 1-0
G2 He got mana screwed and I revokered his top so he couldn't control his draws, survived a bit with pithing on grindstone, but just aggro'd him down with revoker, magus, and manic vandal 2-0

R4 vs UW Miracle Counterbalance 3-1

G1 Grinded him super fast with a lot of reb's back up 1-0
G2 He couldn't do to much with 2 thorns on the table, grindstone got there 2-0

R5 vs CAN Threshold 3-2

G1 Counters, stifles and Goyf's, oh my... 0-1
G2 I stupidly named blue on painter and he proceeded to REB my mountains away (shoulda known they boarded them in) and went to town with 2 mongooses. 0-2

Top 4 Sqweeked in top 4 by having better opponent ratios than the other guy who was 3-2

SF vs UR Landstill (hate this deck)

G1 Since the other times I've faced this deck, going for grindstone never seemed to work, so I decided to go for pure aggro and it almost worked. I had gotten him down to 1, with him having 2 mishra's factories and only having 3 mana so he could only animate one. While I had recruiter and painter on the table and I didn't notice I could just swing for win, I pointed to him to pass the turn but as I realized I could win, I said wait, and he called judge. Judge ruled since I had been going back and forth by either ending my turn by either pointing or orally saying go, he ruled that I had created a short cut to pass the turn and held me to it, and ended up losing the match because of it.

G2 Was still an alright game, tried to lock him down with Thorns and just go aggro, but engineered explosives on 2 said no, then he just Jace fatesealed me for the rest of the game.

Overall was happy with the list, even though it wasn't the one I wanted to use, and only lost to the 1st and 2nd place decks. Still gonna make quite a few changes mainly with the SB though, gonna try this:

1x Batterskull
3x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Helm of Obedience
3x Rest in Peace
1x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
3x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Umezawa's Jitte

[jandax]

Why change what works?

[Ish]

I don't like Phyrexian revoker [edit: metamorph] at all anymore. His utility to kill key legendary cards is just null now, and copying a jitte or something just seems subpar.

Regarding 8 blast effects. I feel like this is correct, however I don't think I've ever found myself siding them in. Without painter they are dead in many matchups, and true heavy blue decks just are not as rampant here. I can only think of SnT mono blue with infinite targets, Jace MS, Tezz, and delver.

Winning the counter war vs mono blue is just near impossible. I play 3 or 4 revoker in my 75, at least 2 main for PWs... Revoker is just too good in my meta. And 6 removal for the worst card in delver decks is sufficient.

[edit 2: I guess Merfolk is gaining popularity again too]

With that said, has anyone actually considered cutting blasts from the side? I'm not promoting this just putting it out there.

Also other SB options I want to try. Shattering Spree. Tezz is popular now (so lotsa targets) and it can clear out a chalice which I found can be a real hindrance.

[Dice_Box]

I am going to go out on a limb and assume that you meant Phyrexian Metamorph and not Phyrexian Revoker. With that I agree, Metamorph is now near on dead. A slot that can be used for other things. Personally I an thinking another Welder can go there.

Shattering Spree, Shattering Spree,Shattering Spree... Play this in burn. There is nothing better than having the same card cast 3 times, seeing the first countered by Cotv, then the Merfolk player force the second and then realise his mistake. There is no better mono red Art hate. Well IMO anyway.

Moomba, you said you are looking at a white build. Mind posting it? I would like to see a white build from someone that knows this deck better than I do. See what choices you make so I can pick through your reasoning and come up with a better deck myself.

[Kap'n Cook]

@moomba

Is your landstill deck you always face like this?
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25439-UR-StifleStill


I've had some epic matches against this guy so I can offer advice but if what you face is different ill just keep my mouth shut

[Moomba]

@ Jandax
Almost everything main deck was useful, except for the magma jets (they're changing to enlightened tutors)
MB
- Spellskite was super useful in every game it came out in. I find this deck has a hard time playing against decks that run lightning bolts (the moons, they do nothing!) so spellskite fixed that perfectly.
- Jaya surprisingly didn't do much for me yesterday, but she can't be replaced because once she gets going, shes insane.
- Revoker is almost always my mvp creature in the deck, stopping SDT for opponents, Jace's, Deathrite, etc.
- I'd play more magus's but as I said about the lightning bolts, they go poof to easily.
- The one ensnaring bridge is gonna keep a spot, especially with tutors now, it just helps against aggro matchups 1st match if it finds the board as they usually don't have a way of dealing with it pre-board
- welder is always silly, still want to try a welder version too with wurmcoil, but that's more painted stone that imperial painter imo
- mana base didn't let me down, was happy with my split, with white splash I'm still considering 1 plains as wastelands are very prevalent in my area and don't want blood moon shutting off my only white
SB
- ensnaring and thorns did their jobs perfectly, so they stay
- the extra REB was useful, as a lot of my matches were blue included
- The ratchet bombs sorta did their job, but I think theirs others that could be more useful
- everything else was useless, not just because of the matchups I played, but I always find them being duds (Koth can come alive under bridge lock, but I can do other faster combos now that I have painter/grind and now RiP/helm in sideboard)

@dice_box
4x Ancient Tomb
1x Arid Mesa
4x Blood Moon
1x bloodstained mire
4x City of Traitors
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x ensnaring bridge
1x Goblin Welder
4x Grindstone
4x Imperial Recruiter
1x Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1x Lotus Petal
1x Magus of the Moon
6x Mountain
4x Painter's Servant
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Plateau
4x Pyroblast
3x Red Elemental Blast
1x scalding tarn
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Simian Spirit Guide
1x Spellskite
1x wooded foothills

Is what I'm gonna try next weekend for 4 force of wills. If I do run a plains, the fetches have to be arid mesa's (only own 1 of each due to not wanting to spend more than whats in my Sliver commander, my baby <3) Also thinking of maybe finding room for Thalia main board. Sideboard is one I posted in previous post.

@Kap'n Cook
The deck is very similar, engineered instead of ratchet, maybe no crucible (didn't see it) the pilot makes his own variations on decks, but that list pretty much is the same other than what I listed sameish sideboard too. I'll gladly take some advice, at least from what I've noticed any piece of equipment I've added to my new sideboard would be almost an instant win vs it, but I'd like to hear what you have to say too.

[Kap'n Cook]

Moomba drop 1 mountain and add a great furnace to make enlightened tutor better.

For the ur landstill matchup my general strategy has been to make land drops every turn and just play the waiting game until I am out of soft counter range (daze, sp). Blasting their card advantage is what really swings the matchup so I almost always try to blast standstill, snapcaster, and jace. The only card worth fighting over usually is blood moon since it blanks so many win conditions and snap is easily blocked. Patience is key. Having a ton of mana and must-counter-cards forces them to spend multiple pieces of countermagic/removal so coupled with blasting their CA you will eventually just out resource them.

Doesn't always work but I've found it's better than trying to jam stuff early only to see it countered and followed up by a standstill when I'm tapped out.

[Ish]

Lost to chalice twice this week. It was backed up by a FOW after I recruitered a manic vandal. That card just seems to shut me down. Think ima add more shattering sprees in the board.

[Kap'n Cook]

Lost to chalice twice this week. It was backed up by a FOW after I recruitered a manic vandal. That card just seems to shut me down. Think ima add more shattering sprees in the board.

Just add in a Vexing Shusher instead of taking up more board space. If you can land a grindstone or welder (another reason I like having 3, more naturally drawn welders) then you can still combo off normally.

Edit:
Shattering spree is a fine choice. I admit a flaw of mine is my desire to cover so many different decks in my sideboard choices even if I may not face them for a while. Hence only jaya and vandal for chalice. But there's nothing wrong with putting in sprees so chalice decks aren't an issue.

[Ish]

Just add in a Vexing Shusher instead of taking up more board space. If you can land a grindstone or welder (another reason I like having 3, more naturally drawn welders) then you can still combo off normally.

Edit:
Shattering spree is a fine choice. I admit a flaw of mine is my desire to cover so many different decks in my sideboard choices even if I may not face them for a while. Hence only jaya and vandal for chalice. But there's nothing wrong with putting in sprees so chalice decks aren't an issue.

Oh I like the shusher

[HammafistRoob]

Moomba- Where are you playing that has Ancestral Recall as a prize for a 15 man event? How much is entry?

[trollking21]

Moomba- Where are you playing that has Ancestral Recall as a prize for a 15 man event? How much is entry?

And he gets that for 3/4th no less. Does first get a black lotus

[Moomba]

1st place was guaranteed the Recall, and 2nd 150, rest was based on attendance. Since it was so low, 3rd/4th got a free draft, lol...

[phoenix4]

Anyone who has concidered doing a vial version if this Deck? :)

[Dice_Box]

I am not really sure that the deck is right for vial. Vial is a horrid late game draw as well so it can have a bad effect on the smoothness of the deck. I think I would rather more tutors over instant speed creatures. If you're having issues with counters try Vexing.

[StefN]

Hello there. I played this deck for a while, with and without white splash. Then I sold my Recruiters a few weeks before the JR reprint had been announced.

I have a question about a card that apparently nobody plays. There is one guy here in Germany who plays this deck for a quite long time and who has succeded in quite a lot small tournaments with it. He plays 2 Umezawas Jittes Main. The more I thinck about it the more I like it (allready ordered all the cards for the deck again ^^ ).

There was allways one thing that I didn't liked about the deck. Without one of the combo parts (especially without the Painter), the deck tends to be very weak. Depends on the opponent, but to only play 1 WurmcoilE., 1 Bridge and a lot of small creatures is sometimes just not enough.

Umezawas Jitte gives you an additional mid or lategame plan. The creature count is high enough and Jitte can easily win games by it's own.

Am I missing something??? Why does nobody play Jitte? ;)

[jandax]

Generally you're not attacking for the win. It is a combo deck after all, with a lot of disruption.

The ol' dork-beatdown plan gets us there every now and then, but those two card slots could best be used for combo support or more disruption.

Don't get me wrong, Jitte wins games as it always has, but now that you can't Legend rule it away, it's another 4 mana card that doesn't help plan A.

[StefN]

Generally you're not attacking for the win. It is a combo deck after all, with a lot of disruption.

The ol' dork-beatdown plan gets us there every now and then, but those two card slots could best be used for combo support or more disruption.

Don't get me wrong, Jitte wins games as it always has, but now that you can't Legend rule it away, it's another 4 mana card that doesn't help plan A.

I absolutely understand you. The question is, what can we do if the combo plan doesn't work? (Extraction etc.) Wurmcoil Engine etc. are also just a plan B slot.
In my opinion 2 Jitte are ONLY 2 slots that provides you a great plan B, or do you thinck that a plan B MD is not nescessary?

[Kap'n Cook]

I absolutely understand you. The question is, what can we do if the combo plan doesn't work? (Extraction etc.) Wurmcoil Engine etc. are also just a plan B slot.
In my opinion 2 Jitte are ONLY 2 slots that provides you a great plan B, or do you think that a plan B MD is not nescessary?

There are actually a bunch of things you can still do. I am going to assume we are talking about sideboard games since we are discussing extraction. I have never really used a dedicated alternate win-con maindeck but I know others (like your friend) have found success.

A) Grindstone extracted: Not really a big deal. You just go dork beatdown with a massive control game in blasts. Jitte just makes the plan better and faster if you get in this situation. Jaya is a wincon and Koth is too if you play him.

B) Painter gets extracted: Much harder as your blasts are all dead unless your opponent plays blue. Jaya/Koth + hiding under a bridge, beatdown before they establish board position and natural grindstone mill. Not pretty but it does happen. Again, Jitte just makes it all go smoother while being worse if the combo is intact.

Again, these are worst case scenarios. A lot of people have liked playing Sword of Light and Shadow to augment the attacking plan but it is basically personal preference on how you like to play the deck.

[Kap'n Cook]

Not really sure how relevant one small change is but figured I'd post anyway. Recently I've tested moving magus #2 back to the main again over metamorph and using the new sideboard slot for siege gang commander. The reason being the new rule change of course and wanting to experiment with the metamorph slot. I re-read much of the old thread and while rug is still big, having a 6th moon against storm and other decks is too good to pass up right now.

Regarding siege gang, he has been excellent at providing one large threat against control/show and tell while doubling as great creature removal/blockers against tempo and creature heavy decks. It is just a small added bonus that I run 3 welders and they pitch to commander.

Again, long term I'm not sure if its the correct direction to take. At least for now though it has been really good and synergistic with the welder build, for anyone running it other than me.

[jandax]

I've been toying with the same idea, regarding Magus. Pretty sold on having 6 as a proper number, and won't argue against 7 because of how the format is shaped at the moment.

And am also interested in knowing more about SGC. When it's good, how does the game generally end from the point to where he ETB?

[phoenix4]

I've tried a build with only 5 moon effects and it worked like shit for me.... It could very well be, that I have mulliganed wrong, adjusting to the reduced number of moons, but I would always say at least 7 in MB and possibly the 8th in the SB....

As well as Dragon/Werewolf Stompy goes, hitting that moon effect turn 1 when possible, is just as nuts as always... However, I'd really want to test 1 or 2 Cavern of Souls in the MB to ensure that Magus, Painter, whatever creature I have in hand can land on the battlefield, but over the weekend I'll be toying with a version of iPainter in a Death and Taxes shell, using Wastelands, Rishadan Ports, Aether Vials and such... Don't know if it's gonna work out good or bad, but I'm very intrigued by that manabase, and to see if it could work with Painters :)

[Dice_Box]

While I love the power of moon it hurts the RW version hard cutting the deck off white. I am thinking the RW deck might need it's own thread to work out these issues.

[sroncor1]

@dice-box- you need to play the deck a bunch with the splashes to get a feel for them. At it's core its the same deck and my list is basically just five cards off Jacks not counting lands. Sometimes you get boned holding an E tutor in hand but really in those situations you are most of the time in a great spot bc you have a moon lock or you played the deck improperly.

Seth

[jandax]

I think it's like asking if you like bacon with your cheeseburger, or a cheeseburger with your bacon?

[Dice_Box]

@dice-box- you need to play the deck a bunch with the splashes to get a feel for them. At it's core its the same deck and my list is basically just five cards off Jacks not counting lands. Sometimes you get boned holding an E tutor in hand but really in those situations you are most of the time in a great spot bc you have a moon lock or you played the deck improperly.

Seth
Cool, I will keep this in mind then.

Would it be right to assume that by this route the only white card that should be in the main deck is E Tutor and any other white cards you're running are best placed in the side?

[Ish]

In my opinion this deck doesn't want any splash. The moon effect and disruption plan mono red offers is the strength

As soon as you start splashing it becomes a watered down and worse version of the deck. If you really want to splash I think you should look at a completely different painter deck like UR Painter Stone. It's much more comborific and less about disruption. There is already a thread on the source about it.

[jandax]

Broke down and made my list as stock as possible going the Welder route for a Local on saturday. Too bad the World champs aren't open to the public or else I'd be in A'dam the weekend!

4 Recruiter
4 Stone
4 Painter
4 Blood Moon
3 Magus
3 Welder
2 Revoker
1 Jaya
4 REB
3 Blasts
3 SDT
4 SSG
1 Mox
1 Petal

9 Mountain
2 Fetch
8 Sol land

Sideboard:
1 Jaya
1 Blast
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Bridge
4 Thorn

Decided to give TES a break and drop Moons on all the greedy mana bases. Decided to switch back to welders because of all of the artifacts. I don't think many people around here run mono colored decks, but the synergy is there maindeck to get some wins. It's not far off my Ghent list that I ran to a 6-3 (lost out last round) after picking the deck up the night before. Feels good, feels safe most of all. Early moon or combo/control or ship it back. Die rolling is tech as ever!

[phoenix4]

How do you think the opal will perform?

[jandax]

As soon as I add it to the list, I'll let you know :cool:

Regarding the Lotus Petal, others have talked it up a good bit so I'll give it a try. More CA than a Mox and having a fifth SSG seems sweet when trying to drop an early moon or combo