[Primer/Deck] High Tide

[feline]

http://i.imgur.com/ly5RoxX.jpg


To those whom would find it useful, the High Tide Discord channel can be found here (https://discord.gg/fBUCt8S).

Like non traditional kills? How about milling out your opponent instead of going for the life total, making them draw their entire library of cards, & juggling one of the most demanding combos in Legacy that you could play, sometimes casting dozens upon dozens of spells over & over in the process.

1) Playing High Tide
2) Successful Decklists
3) Card Choices & Building a deck:
3a) Maindeck
3b) Sideboard
4) To Candel or not to Candel Candelabra of Tawnos
5) Price guide
6) Awesome links! In relation to High Tide & Legacy.
7) The previous High Tide thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20172-PRIMER-Spiral-Tide by egosum (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?28891-egosum) & special thanks
8) 30 Match ups

1) Playing High Tide: short version
The basics of High Tide overall are fairly simple, unlike other combo decks that want to go off as fast as possible, you want to wait, getting as many islands into play & as many card draws as you can until that "last turn" before their lethal to go off. You want to wait because that means getting to more protection (Counters) & more Islands (Because of High Tide & how it works with Islands) Then when you finally "go off" you start with a High Tide, then use any card draw/untap effects to dig for more & produce mana, then finally cast Time Spiral. Then you'll get a new hand & basically repeat that process, picking up counterspell back up accordingly against opposing disruption, casting more High Tides, more untap effects, producing more mana, until finally instead of casting another Time Spiral, you're casting a Blue Sun's Zenith on yourself to draw a ton of cards, or against your opponent for more than their library to win, your other route of success is a lethal Brain Freeze after enough spells played, provided they can't kill you on their next upkeep, or they have something like Emrakul, the Aeons torn in their deck.

Playing High Tide: long version
1.) Before casting Time Spiral/Blue Sun's Zenith, try to go off with as much protection as possible
a.) Before every Time Spiral/Blue Sun's Zenith on yourself to draw or opponent to win, pick up as many Counterspells along the way, if you have one last draw like a Ponder or Merchant Scroll, use it before you Time Spiral/Blue Sun's Zenith, to dig for more Counterspells, if you lose the Counter war, you'll lose the game.

b.) Another way to protect yourself, is cutting off your opponent from the majority of their spells, or even all of them altogether. Whenever you get the chance against an opponent, get them to tap out as soon as possible. Use that Merchant scroll or Cunning Wish to net your Turnabout & set yourself up, then at the end of their turn before you're going to go off, cast it at your opponent, if it resolves, choose to tap all their lands, if it doesn't resolve, worst case scenario, you got a counterspell out of their hand, & you can try again later. While you're mid combo, set yourself up to get untapped Islands in play, working your way down to 4 mana in your pool, then cast Turnabout targeting your opponent, either drawing out another Counterspell or forcing them to tap for mana in response, if they do, declare your attack step, emptying their mana pool, allowing you to continue on with less resistance from them. Blue decks or not, I've even had opposing BUG decks use Flusterstorm against myself at the Open in Seattle, while another used Extirpate against myself at the Open in Las Vegas, but they can't do that once they're tapped out!

2.) After you resolve a Time Spiral:
a.) Casted a High Tide, & a Time Spiral? Got your new hand of 7? Ok, don't tap your lands or cast another High Tide, yet. You have mana floating? Don't tap your lands until you cast all available High Tides first. Secondly, if you're cutting it close on draw spells & risk fizzling out? Use that floating mana to draw some more cards first, if your new hand of 7 only nets you minimal card draw, you might cast your single Ponder first, if you draw into nothing, you'll at least have a High Tide in hand if you have to start all over again. So always keep in mind your availability to draw more cards before you cast that next High Tide.

b.) After resolving Time Spiral, there are spells you'll almost always want to cast first: Brainstorm Ponder & Preordain, they are cheap (1 mana) are not likely to be countered by the opponent, & allow you to basically, pick the best of 3 & draw it, possibly giving you what you were looking to get without having to cast your Merchant Scroll or Cunning Wish right away.

3.) Primary Cunning Wish priorities: Cunning Wish to Blue Sun's Zenith > Cunning Wish to Intuition > Cunning Wish to Meditate > Cunning Wish to Brain Freeze:
a.) Cunning Wish to Blue Sun's Zenith your opponent for lethal
b.) Cunning Wish to Blue Sun's Zenith yourself for a bunch of cards, if you can't lethal Blue Sun's Zenith your opponent
c.) Cunning Wish to Intuition, when Blue Sun's Zenith costs too much, get Intuition, get Time Spirals, then cast it, netting new cards & untapping for more mana
d.) Cunning Wish to Meditate + 1 cantrip. If you cannot afford the 12 mana cost of Cunning Wish > Intuition > Time Spiral, you can still Meditate for 4 cards, then see the next 3 with a cantrip, netting you at least the best 5 of the next 7
e.) Cunning Wish to Brain Freeze. If you go the cheapest route, Cunning Wish to Meditate & will lack enough mana afterward to untap, then you'll fizzle. This is a scenario that can occur, when it does, check the number of spells cast, because you also have Brain Freeze, you might have resolved just enough spells to win right there, which is a much better alternative than fizzling.

4.) Secondary Cunning Wish priorities:
a.) Grabbing counterspells. Even if your opponent is tapped out, there are still free things like Force of Will, so whenever you're in combo, one of your secondary priorities is Cunning Wish > Pact of Negation when you're out of Counterspells. However, Cunning wish is an instant, so you don't have to commit to grabbing a counterspell until they play one against you & you're out, just make sure you leave the 3 mana open for it, or 4 if you suspect opposing Daze.

b.) Cunning Wish to grab bounce spells. Whether it's Snap against Thalia, Guardian of Thraben so you can untap 2 Islands, a Wipe away against Counterbalance, or Rebuild against Affinity, Mud, Stax, or Death and Taxes with Ethersworn Canonist and an Aether Vial with 2 counters in play, grabbing bounce is a very important option to have against many decks.

c.) Cunning Wish to grab graveyard hate Surgical Extraction, Ravenous Trap. This one is straightforward, eliminate all copies of an annoying card in a graveyard from their deck, or remove the graveyard altogether. Quoting Reuben Bresler directly from his Seattle open report he wrote: ...Surgical Extraction to surgically extract Surgical Extractions surgically.. In other words, you can even extract opposing Surgical Extractions!

d.) Cunning Wish to grab combo pieces. Need your Turnabout to untap? Or Intuition to get to Time Spiral? You're a combo deck, & you need combo pieces to go off.

5.) Universal sideboard possibilities against High Tide to keep in mind against ANY deck:
a.) Surgical Extraction is essentially "free" to cast. Assume every single game 2 and 3, that your opponent has the option of Surgical Extraction from their sideboard, so always sideboard out a High Tide for those sideboard games, if they catch you off guard & extract your High Tide, you will want the option of being able to Cunning Wish for a High Tide.
Having said that, luckily, that is about as powerful as Surgical Extraction gets against High Tide, because Cunning Wish & Time Spiral remove themselves from the game when resolved, they'll almost never hit the graveyard.
b.) Mindbreak Trap is the other universal card that you might see brought in against you. At the Starcityopen in Los Angeles in December, a goblin player drew 2 Mindbreak Trap's against myself after a resolved Time Spiral, however along the way in all my cantrips, tutors & card draw, I picked up some Counterspells, never forgetting the possibility, so when he tried to use them I was able to counter them both.
c.) Leyline of Sanctity Leyline of the Void Tormod's Crypt Relic of Progenitus & friends. The only reason I even note these strategies is because they do actually come up, but they are the weakest of the "potentially from any deck" scenarios & honestly, anyone that tries them against you is probably only doing so because they either don't realize how ineffective it is, or it's literally all they have for sideboarding against you & they're just trading out dead cards like Swords to Plowshares. None of these strategies prevent you from comboing at all. The artifacts are a 1 time use, the Leyline's can be bounced mid combo once you have enough mana & a tutor to burn, & all their "mass graveyard hate" will never remove enough cards from your deck, it will just "shrink it." At best, the % of draw spells in your deck as a whole might be a bit lower, that's about it.

6.) Mulligans:
Nobody likes to mulligan, but I absolutely HATE it, if I do, that hand has to be horrible! Luckily with all the 1 mana cantrips, even 1 land hands are commonly keepable depending on the rest of your hand. Here's all you need to start comboing off at a minimum:
at least 3 Island in play and 1 untap effect, or 4 Island in play
1 High Tide
1 Time Spiral
to go off with protection, at least 1 Force of Will or Flusterstorm, or more.
The more of those cards you have in hand, the closer you are to start your combo, & if you have at least 1 land and cantrips to boot, the chance of drawing into more of what you need is only better. So whenever you mulligan, look at everything, & make sure the hand you're going to mulligan away is actually worth discarding & drawing a new random hand minus 1 card.

History:
High Tide, Spring Tide, Solidarity (Reset High Tide), Combo winter! High Tide has a lot of history in Magic the Gathering that goes far back, but the current incarnation of High Tide as of today, in the format that is Legacy/type 1.5, started with this:
December 20 2010 DCI Banned & Restricted List Announcement (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/122k) Effective Date: January 1 2011
Legacy:
Survival of the Fittest is banned
Time Spiral is unbanned

2) Successful Decklists: (Starcitygames Legacy Opens (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?t%5BT2%5D=3&event_ID=20&feedin=&start_date=2010-12-26&end_date=2013-03-10&city=&state=&country=&start=1&finish=16&exp=&p_first=&p_last=&simple_card_name%5B1%5D=High+Tide&simple_card_name%5B2%5D=Time+Spiral&simple_card_name%5B3%5D=&simple_card_name%5B4%5D=&simple_card_name%5B5%5D=&w_perc=0&g_perc=0&r_perc=0&b_perc=0&u_perc=0&a_perc=0&comparison%5B1%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B1%5D=1&card_name%5B1%5D=&comparison%5B2%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B2%5D=1&card_name%5B2%5D=&comparison%5B3%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B3%5D=1&card_name%5B3%5D=&comparison%5B4%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B4%5D=1&card_name%5B4%5D=&comparison%5B5%5D=%3E%3D&card_qty%5B5%5D=1&card_name%5B5%5D=&sb_comparison%5B1%5D=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty%5B1%5D=1&sb_card_name%5B1%5D=&sb_comparison%5B2%5D=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty%5B2%5D=1&sb_card_name%5B2%5D=&card_not%5B1%5D=&card_not%5B2%5D=&card_not%5B3%5D=&card_not%5B4%5D=&card_not%5B5%5D=&order_1=date+desc&order_2=date+desc&limit=100&action=Show+Decks&p=1) & other large player events from The Council (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tipo.php?archetype=Spiral%20Tide&format=Legacy) since the unbanning of Time Spiral)
2011:
Jan-Apr High Tide, 1st wave
13th place - Jacob Baugh SCG Kansas (193 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=36125) Candels 1
6th place - Lorenzo Fedeli - Cerro M MLL #5 (117 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5515&iddeck=39942)
5th place - Lorenzo Fedeli - CerroMagg (MI) MLL #7 AFCT (106 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5719&iddeck=41410)
1st place - Alix Hatfield SCG Edison (294 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37043) Candels 4
9th place - Kyle Morin - SCG Edison (294 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37035) Candels 2
3rd place - Jamie Cano - D-Day-IV Empoli (214 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5783&iddeck=41872) Candels 3
22nd place - Gerry Thompson SCG Memphis (137 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37173) Candels 4
16th place - Javi Rubio - GP Barcelona side event (196 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5850&iddeck=43091)
1st place - Jesse Hatfield - SCG Atlanta (210 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37565) Candels 4
3rd place - Alix Hatfield SCG Atlanta (210 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37564) Candels 4
10th place - Ben Wienburg SCG Atlanta (210 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=37573) Candels 4
2nd place - Lorenzo Fedeli - Legnano MLL #8 (116 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5909&iddeck=42834)
15th place - David Price SCG Boston (252 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=38048) Candels 4
13th place - Joshua Justice SCG Charlotte (211 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=38192) Candels 4
May-Jul May 13th Mental Misstep.
9th place - Iñaki Puig Dollers - Bazaar Of Moxen V - Annecy France (633 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6147&iddeck=44561) Mental Missteps 3
1st place - Carles Messegue - LCL Lliga Catalana de Legacy 4 Miag inGenio (100 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6171&iddeck=44761) Candels 3
2nd place - German Vicioso - LCL Lliga Catalana de Legacy 4 Miag inGenio (100 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6171&iddeck=44762)
2nd place - Javi Rubio - 6 LCL inGenio (120 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6443&iddeck=46672) Mental Missteps 3
Oct-Dec September announcement Mental Misstep banned (http://www.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/161a).
4th place - Lorenzo Fedeli - Ovino_Sex Milano (390 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6935&iddeck=50312) Candels 2
3rd place - Clement Denis - Last Chance Qualifier CdF (143 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7172&iddeck=52061)
3rd place - Lorenzo Fedeli - MLL #4 Cardano al campo (VA) (104 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7333&iddeck=53374) Candels 3

2012:
Jan-Apr High Tide, 2nd wave
3rd place - Andreas Dietz - Hanau Win a Lotus - Frankfurt Germany (247 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7506&iddeck=54466)
9th place - Florian Zarges - Hanau Win a Lotus - Frankfurt Germany (247 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7506&iddeck=54472)
9th place - Germán Vicioso - 1º Torneo Lliga Catalana (119 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7519&iddeck=55364)
14th place - Germán Vicioso - 2º torneo Lliga Catalana (109 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7676&iddeck=56519)
4th place - Sander Hendrickx - Belgian Eternal Weekend Legacy (104 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7787&iddeck=56682)
2nd place - Eric Becker SCG Charlotte (153 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=44089)
4th place - John Rojas SCG Tampa (141 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=44337) Candels 4
4th place - Colin Chilbert - GP Indianapolis (1,214 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=7872&iddeck=57325) Candels 3
Day 1 undefeated - Michael Bernat - GP Indianapolis (1,214 players) (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=989256)
5th place - Paco Benlloch - Melendians 2 (101 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8039&iddeck=58598)
7th place - Alix Hatfield SCG Baltimore (264 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=45095) Candels 3
15th place - Jesse Hatfield SCG Baltimore (264 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=45102) Candels 3
7th place - Nathan Cardinell SCG Phoenix (137 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=45474) Candels 3
May-Aug
19th place - Daniel Gillis SCG Columbus (258 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=46667) Candels 3
10th place - Feline Longmore SCG Seattle (187 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=47510) Candels 4
13th place - Casey Hanford SCG Kansas (209 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=48632) Candels 2
23rd place - Juan Mendez - 2012 Gen Con Legacy Championship (350 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8917&iddeck=65743)
Sep-Dec High Tide, 3rd wave
3rd place - Roberto Libanore - Tarmogeddon 6 Padova (210 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9049&iddeck=66121) Candels 2
1st place - Michael Bernat SCG Indianapolis (204 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50193) Candels 3
14th place - Jason Suire SCG New Orleans (91 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50397) Candels 3
5th place - Jonathan Thatch SCG St Louis (162 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50528) Candels 3
4th place - Michael Baker SCG Dallas (175 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50679) Candels 3
8th place - Colin Chilbert SCG Dallas (175 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50680) Candels 3
1st place - Feline Longmore SCG Seattle (164 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=50905) Candels 4
27th place - Michael Bernat SCG Invitational Los Angeles Legacy portion 7-1 or better (208 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=51678) Candels 3
2nd place - Michael Steinecke - End of Year Hanau (194 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9882&iddeck=72048)
Special thanks to astormbrewing (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?33861-astormbrewing) who did an analysis of 2012 High Tide decks (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AnCvobWqS1y1dHI0eG01MXRvODl3SDh0SHVJcEF2c0E&single=true&gid=0&output=html) based on lists noted from here (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/blog.php?b=7932)

2013:
Jan-Mar
32nd place - Christian Walton SCG Columbus (325 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=52080) Candels 3
7th place - Marcel Brigneti - LCL 2013 Enero (125 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9951&iddeck=72546) Candels 4
14th place - Colin Chilbert SCG Dallas (212 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=52500) Candels 3
2nd place - Michael Tabler SCG Cincinnati (279 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=53158) Candels 3
4th place - Trapani Giulio - Tarmogeddon 7 (137 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10480&iddeck=76436) Candels 3
Aug-Sep
11th place - Feline Longmore SCG Minneapolis (302 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=58129) Candels 4
13th place - Aoyagi Motohiko - 晴れる屋レガシー杯 - トーナメントセンターオープン記念 (278 players) (http://www.happymtg.com/decks/view/D051383)
19th place - Garrett Young SCG Cincinnati (277 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=58813) Candels 3
8th place - Michele Giua - Legacy@Ovino8 (407 players) (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=11877&iddeck=86948)

2014:
9th place - Feline Longmore SCG Nashville (283 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=63435) Candels 4
32nd place - Feline Longmore SCG Seattle (320 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=64859) Candels 4
3rd place - Colin Chilbert SCG Dallas (308 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=66164) Candels 3
16th place - Feline Longmore SCG Detroit (225 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=66552) Candels 4
13th place - Feline Longmore SCG Indianapolis (346 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=68370) Candels 4
7th place - Feline Longmore SCG Providence (302 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=68700) Candels 4
14th place - Feline Longmore SCG Syracuse (230 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=71458) Candels 4
6th place - Feline Longmore SCG Atlanta (263 players) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=72852) Candels 4
7th place - Roberto Libanore - Ovinogeddon 9 (476 players) (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14818&iddeck=109767) Candels 3
6th place - Sander Hendrickx - Belgian Legacy Cup Finals (102 players) (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15726&iddeck=117062)

2015:
7th place - Mikko Hyvärinen - Finnish Legacy Championship (109 players) (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18999&iddeck=144258) (Solidarity/Reset Tide)

3) Card choices & Building a deck: Based on the above successful deck lists. Staples & more commonly stuff will be noted in Bold with a #:

3a) Maindeck:
Combo pieces:
High Tide (4) Namesake card of the deck, more resolved = more mana
Time Spiral (4) All you want in 1 card, both draw & untapping

Untap effects:
Turnabout (1-3 main, 1 side) Untap your lands, or tap your opponent to "fog" their creatures, or tap their lands to cut them off from their mana
Candelabra of Tawnos (3-4) Untap effect that becomes more powerful with multiple in play & a Turnabout on your artifacts
Cloud of faeries Less commonly seen in lists. In place of Candelabra in some budget builds
Mind over Matter Less commonly seen in lists, 1st wave of High Tide. Deemed "win more" before discontinued
Palinchron Less commonly seen in lists, as a 1 of for infinite mana when comboing

Tutors:
Merchant Scroll (4) A tutor for any instant in your deck, including High Tide itself, card draw, counterspells, & untap effects
Cunning Wish (3) A tutor for sideboard cards from game 1, combo pieces, card draw, to utility like bounce, counterspells, & graveyard hate
Intuition (0-1 main, usually 1 side) Almost always a 1 of in the sideboard. A way to tutor for Time Spiral directly

Card Draw:
Brainstorm (4) A pillar of the format, add 3 to hand, put the 2 weakest cards from hand on top, & shuffle away with a shuffle effect
Ponder (4) Draw 3, pick the best, or shuffle it & draw from a new top deck
Preordain (2-4) Scry 2 then draw the best of, or dig deeper, post spiral you can brainstorm 2 unwanted cards on top, & scry them away with a preordain
Sensei's Divining Top(0-4) Great against discard, with Fetchlands, to see cards 8/9/10 after every Spiral or shuffle effect
Meditate (Average 1 main, 1 side) More recent lists have trended lower on the card. When you don't have enough mana to Spiral, getting to a Meditate & drawing 4, then using a cantrip like Brainstorm to draw 3 more, will still allow you to keep the best 5 of 7 in an attempt to refill the hand
Gitaxian Probe Less commonly seen in lists, averaging as a 2 of
Trade Routes Less commonly seen in lists as a 1 of

Counters:
Force of Will (4) A pillar of the format, keeps opposing disruption from hitting like counters, discard, annoying creatures, or opposing combo decks from killing you faster
Flusterstorm (0-3 main, 1 side) Since most disruption will hit you before you try to combo (discard) or during (counterspells) this instant/sorcery targeting counter is usually a hard counter, & mid combo with enough spells played, it's always a hard counter. Also very difficult to stop since it can't just be counterspelled away traditionally
Pact of Negation (0-1 main, 1 side) Less common in maindecks. 0 cast counterspell, perfect for just starting to combo off when mana is most vital
Remand Less commonly seen in lists, along with Brain Freeze[/color] A secondary strategy in some non candel lists
Swan Song Sometimes in place of Flusterstorm, sometimes in addition to Flusterstorm. Can hit enchantments like Counterbalance & Sneak Attack
Spell Pierce Less commonly seen in lists
Counterspell Less commonly seen in lists

Bounce:
Snap Less commonly seen in lists, along with Cloud of Faeries in place of Candelabra in some budget builds. Though usually a 1 of sideboard
Wipe away Less commonly seen in lists, though usually 1-2 sideboard
Repeal Less commonly seen in lists

Kill condition:
Blue Sun's Zenith (0-1 main, 1 side) With enough mana, Blue Sun yourself for a 1 sided Time Spiral of 7 cards or more, & of course, aim it at your opponents deck for the win when lethal
Brain Freeze Less commonly seen in lists, along with Remand A secondary strategy in some non candel lists
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn Less commonly seen in lists

Lands:
Island (average 12) At a minimum you will need 3 Islands in play to go off. 2 is extremely rare & not recommended anyway, but technically possible. 6 is the other extreme to look for when going off, because Time Spiral untaps up to 6 lands only. The most common in play however, is 3-4.
Misty Rainforest Scalding Tarn Polluted Delta Flooded Strand (average 6) Brainstorm is the main reason for running fetchlands for it's shuffle effect.

3b) Sideboard:
Kill condition:
Blue Sun's Zenith (1) One of 2 kill conditions, that also acts as massive card draw, & since it shuffles back into the deck, you an Merchant Scroll for it after each use
Brain Freeze (1) The other kill condition, provided the opponent doesn't have shuffle back in effects like Emrakul, the Aeons Torn or the ability to kill you on their next upkeep before their next draw step

Untap effects:
Turnabout (1) Wish for a tap/untap effect

Tutors:
Intuition (1) A key card to get to Time Spiral, Intuition for 3, keep 1. Works with any 3 & 4 of in deck

Card draw:
Meditate (0-1) If you can't Brain Freeze for lethal, & don't have enough to Wish>Intuition>Spiral because of lack of Spirals or mana, you can still Meditate for 4, cantrip for the best of the next 3, & still net a "new hand" that is the essentially, the best 5 of 7 to continue going off

Counters:
Pact of Negation (1-2) Both a wish target & a true sideboard card, bringing some in against heavier counterspell opponents
Flusterstorm (1) Also a wish target counterspell, a hard counter once your opponent can't pay the mana, & can't be so easily countered back by traditional counterspells
Spell Pierce Gives you options against non creature permanents when Flusterstorm won't hit a Planeswalker, Enchantment, or Artifact
~Less commonly seen in lists are: Mindbreak Trap Misdirection Hydroblast Disrupt Dispel Trickbind Counterspell

Bounce:
Wipe Away (1-2) Split second bounce, the best bounce against Counterbalance decks
Echoing Truth (0-1) Often used against multiple opposing permanents of the same name, like Leyline of Sanctity as an example
Snap (1) Great against problematic creatures like Thalia, Guardian of Thraben & Gaddock Teeg
Rebuild or Hurkyl's Recall (1) For things like Stax, Affinity, MUD, or even Death & Taxes with an Ethersworn Canonist in play & an Aether Vial with 2 counters. Rebuild can cycle & doesn't target. Recall costs 1 less, but is more susceptible to Chalice of the Void
Capsize (0-1) Usually for it's go infinite with a Candelabra
~For the infinite mana ratio with Capsize:
1 High Tides resolved - 7 Islands in play = infinite storm, but mana stays the same / 8 Islands in play means infinite mana
2 High Tides resolved - 4 Islands in play means infinite mana
3 High Tides resolved - 3 Islands in play means infinite mana
4 High Tides resolved - 2 Islands in play means infinite mana
~Less commonly seen in lists are: Repeal Hibernation Chain of Vapor

Graveyard hate:
Surgical Extraction (1) Wishable graveyard hate against things like Reanimate that can also extract other problematic cards, like their Force of Will's as an example, or even their own Extractions
Ravenous Trap (0-1) Wishable graveyard hate that works great especially against Dredge or Ad Nauseam Storm decks that utilize Past in Flames

Removal:
Dismember Less commonly seen in lists
Slaughter Pact Less commonly seen in lists

Other:
Twincast Less commonly seen in lists
Gigadrowse Less commonly seen in lists
Mana short Less commonly seen in lists

Non wish target sideboard cards:
Counterbalance (0 or 4) Can come in against any deck where you want to draw out counter magic before the combo turn, or resolve to help protect the hand/combo before & as you're going off
Defense Grid (0-3) Sometimes used against opposing counterspell decks as a way to defend the combo, or even draw out a counterspell
Leyline of Sanctity Less commonly seen in lists

Non wish target graveyard hate:
Grafdigger's cage (0-3) Graveyard hate that can also work as a secondary against Natural Order & Green Sun's Zenith as examples, 1 Flusterstorm stops 1 spell, but 1 Grafdigger's Cage stops them all
~Less commonly seen in lists are: Tormod's Crypt Relic of Progenitus

4) To Candel or not to Candel: Running Candelabra of Tawnos
Arguments for running Candelabra of Tawnos:
1) It can remain in play as an untap effect while Time Spiraling.
2) A Candel in play, is 1 less draw spell in your deck, meaning each time you Time Spiral, though miniscule, the % of your decks draw spells as a whole is "slightly increased" in comparison to the Candel being somewhere in your deck, helping decrease the chance of you drawing 7 non draw spells & fizzling ever so slightly.
3) Synergy with Turnabout. 1 Turnabout untaps your lands once, 1 Candel untaps your lands once, but once you have 2 or more Candels in play, each Turnabout for artifacts, means you're duplicating untap effects for each Candel in play past the first.
4) Candels cost just 1 mana to cast, it's easier to get past taxing stuff like Daze & Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, & can even be put into play against those cards before your actual combo turn.
5) Candel's untap effect still works against destroy effects like Abrupt Decay Disenchant, etc. Worst case scenario after you untap & it's destroyed, it just shuffles back in with your next Time Spiral.
6) Candels sometimes acts as "bait", when an opponent burns a Counterspell on it, that's 1 less counter you have to work through, since you can still go off with just 4 Islands in play without any untap effects.
7) With 3 Islands in play, & a Candel in play from a previous turn, it only costs 3 to untap your lands, meaning you will ideally have 7 mana before you cast Time Spiral, allowing you to cast a cantrip, save the single mana for a Flusterstorm, or save it for after Time Spiral resolving.
8) When you sideboard in bounce against some decks it is never a dead card, worst case scenario, your maindeck bounce turns into a mana producer, returning a tapped Candel to your hand, then play it again.
Quoting Di (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?20-Di):
9) In addition to Turnabout, running Candelabra provides the easiest avenue to cast a lethal BSZ (relevant in any case where Brain Freeze is a liability). On it's own, Turnabout requires you to have played a higher number of High Tides and/or require more lands, which could potentially delay or hinder your ability to win. Additionally, this also requires more effort because you have fewer methods of generating mana, and thus need to spend more on resources to find them. This in turn will put you in more situations that involve struggling to continue comboing because more mana needs to be used to continue than normal. The likelihood of you winning a game with both is much higher than if you only have access to one.
10) Only running a single untap effect outside of Time Spiral limits the deck's flexibility against hate. If a build running only Turnabout has either High Tide or Turnabout hit by Surgical Extraction or the like, the odds of winning through it are much more difficult as opposed to a more diversified list. You obviously can still win with Brain Freeze, but generating the storm to make it lethal would be much harder to do so.
11) Only running Turnabouts limits the amount of mana you can have post-Spiral, or limits the odds you open an untap effect post-Spiral. This can hinder your ability to continue comboing because you work harder to find an untap effect.
12) The ability to preemptively play Candelabra or go off with fewer lands isn't so much an advantage as it is a luxury, as it does provide a buffer against aggressive decks where you may want it. I personally don't go off turn three very often, but I do go off with three lands more often than I'd like to. It just happens that you don't hit lands sometimes, and this is among the only cards to help generate an advantage in that position. Again, that speaks to improving the flexibility of the deck.
13) The one mana you spend to cast it the turn you play it is often mitigated by the fact that the same candle has the potential to generate more mana on its own later in the game. It's true that extra mana spent can occasionally be an issue against taxing decks. However, it only costs one as opposed to four. This makes it much easier to resolve in the first place and get something out of against these very same decks, and also helps situations where High Tide is Dazed and you need to be able to cast a cheaper card to generate some mana.
14) Turnabout can be Flusterstormed, Candelabra cannot. This has actually come up a couple times for me where it's been highly relevant, and given the popularity of Flusterstorm will only increase if combo continues to be popular, this can become a common scenario. Additionally but far less relevant, Turnabout can be Misdirected.
15) A great luxury, but I do have players often boarding in cards to fight candles alone. If an opponent is keeping Abrupt Decay in their deck or boarding into something like Krosan Grip or Ancient Grudge, then it's doing a great job at clogging their hand with dead cards. I've won countless games where I went off and the opponent showed me a dead card in their hand used to fight Candelabra.
16) It opens up play patterns, and allows you to play a different game because you have access to a lot more options with more mana. This could (in turn) place less emphasis on resolving something like Meditate to continue going, because you can easily have an excess of mana to just find BSZ and draw 20 cards or something of the like.

Arguments against running Candelabra of Tawnos:
1) The biggest & most obvious, is that they cost so much $$$, & can only be played in a very narrow line of decks for Legacy (High Tide, 12post). However, this is a purely economical argument.
2) Candelabra of Tawnos is susceptible to Stifle effects.
3) Candels are susceptible to Pithing Needle Null Rod Stony Silence etc, however these cards don't really stop you from comboing, & can rather easily be bounced when you get to the point of wanting to Blue Sun's Zenith for a ton of cards.
Quoting Di (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?20-Di):
4) The "downside" of Candelabra against the likes of Abrupt Decay or Stifle are minor. Abrupt Decay will almost never be an issue because you aren't likely to play it prematurely against a deck that runs them. Stifle I guess, but the same argument could be said for a fetchland. But if you're losing a to a Stifle on a Candelabra, odds are you'd be losing to another counter on a different spell. Besides, Stifle comes from a single deck, not all builds run them, and based on my experience, Stifle is one of the most-boarded out cards. It's far less of an issue than people make it out to be. Otherwise, it does a fantastic job of negating Daze and Spell Pierce.

5) Price guide of more traditional High Tide cards: As of June 2013 (For the most current prices, click on the link of each card) (High-Mid-Low according to http://magiccards.info/ & http://magic.tcgplayer.com/all_magic_sets.asp)
$50.00 or higher average:
Candelabra of Tawnos (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Candelabra%20of%20Tawnos&sn=Antiquities) $475.00 $349.99 $314.99
Force of Will (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Force%20of%20Will&sn=Alliances) $99.95 $83.32 $69.00
Polluted Delta (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Polluted%20Delta&sn=Onslaught) $108.25 $91.45 $85.06
Flooded Strand (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Flooded%20Strand&sn=Onslaught) $82.88 $72.00 $59.00

$20.00 to $50.00 average:
Misty Rainforest (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Misty%20Rainforest&sn=Zendikar) $44.98 $37.94 $33.99
Scalding Tarn (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Scalding%20Tarn&sn=Zendikar) $44.99 $38.00 $33.60
Intuition (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Intuition&sn=Tempest) $44.99 $34.62 $29.49

$10.00 to $20.00 average:
Time Spiral (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Time%20Spiral&sn=Urza%27s%20Saga) $28.79 $18.94 $15.86
Pact of Negation (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Pact%20of%20Negation&sn=Future%20Sight) $20.58 $16.51 $14.49
Flusterstorm (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Flusterstorm&sn=Commander) $18.12 $14.00 $11.25

$5.00 to $10.00 average:
Cunning Wish (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Cunning%20Wish&sn=Judgment) $6.94 $4.97 $3.49
Meditate (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Meditate&sn=Tempest) $16.03 $4.99 $3.25

$2.00 to $5.00 average:
Brain Freeze (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Brain%20Freeze&sn=Scourge) $3.06 $1.94 $1.15
Surgical Extraction (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Surgical%20Extraction&sn=New%20Phyrexia) $5.99 $3.30 $2.66
Turnabout (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Turnabout&sn=Urza%27s%20Saga) $3.09 $2.21 $0.80

$1.00 to $2.00 average:
Merchant Scroll (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Merchant%20Scroll&sn=Homelands) $2.05 $0.99 $0.45
Brainstorm (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Brainstorm&sn=Mercadian%20Masques) $2.34 $1.61 $1.09
Hurkyl's Recall (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Hurkyl%27s%20Recall&sn=10th%20Edition) $3.09 $1.99 $1.39
Defense Grid (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Defense%20Grid&sn=8th%20Edition) $2.19 $1.49 $0.75
Grafdigger's Cage (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Grafdigger%27s%20Cage&sn=Dark%20Ascension) $3.08 $1.17 $0.36

$1.00 or less average:
High Tide (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=High%20Tide&sn=Fallen%20Empires) $1.99 $0.75 $0.25
Ponder (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Ponder&sn=Lorwyn) $1.48 $0.93 $0.71
Preordain (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Preordain&sn=Magic%202011%20%28M11%29) $1.50 $0.45 $0.10
Blue Sun's Zenith (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Blue%20Sun%27s%20Zenith&sn=Mirrodin%20Besieged) $1.29 $0.59 $0.35
Spell Pierce (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Spell%20Pierce&sn=Zendikar) $2.25 $0.94 $0.71
Wipe Away (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Wipe%20Away&sn=Time%20Spiral) $0.77 $0.37 $0.23
Echoing truth (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Echoing%20Truth&sn=Darksteel) $1.49 $0.71 $0.25
Repeal (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Repeal&sn=Guildpact) $0.95 $0.21 $0.06
Snap (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Snap&sn=Urza%27s%20Legacy) $1.64 $0.55 $0.36
Rebuild (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Rebuild&sn=Urza%27s%20Legacy) $0.51 $0.30 $0.06
Ravenous Trap (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Ravenous%20Trap&sn=Zendikar) $0.60 $0.16 $0.03
Tormod's Crypt (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Tormod%27s%20Crypt&sn=Magic%202013%20%28M13%29) $1.02 $0.40 $0.14
Island (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/magic_single_card.asp?cn=Island&sn=Guru%20Lands) $228.95(Guru) $9.98(Unhinged) $6.71(Unglued) $6.11(Beta) $0.99(Zendikar) $0.03(Basic)
http://i.imgur.com/dosyJFk.jpg

6) Awesome Links: In relation to both High Tide & Legacy
Price trends of singles:
http://www.mtgprice.com/sets/Fallen_Empires/High_Tide_(1)

High Tide articles/reports/etc:
2013:
http://starcitygames.com/events/coverage/finals_michael_tabler_vs_laure.html Feature Match, High Tide in the finals SCG Cincinnati (Michael Tabler)
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/25641_Eternal-Europe-No-Candles-No-Problem.html Article with an emphasis for those candeless High Tides (Carsten Kotter)
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpden13/day2#7 Deck Tech from GP Denver (Di (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?20-Di)/Colin Chilbert)

3rd wave, late 2012:
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=10871 Article by SCG Dallas top 8 (Di (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?20-Di)/Colin Chilbert)
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25068-Seattle-Nov-18th-2012-Tournament-report-from-1st-place-High-tide! Tournament report, SCG Seattle top 8 (Feline (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?33551-feline) Longmore)
http://starcitygames.com/events/coverage/the_tide_comes_in_finals_felin.html Feature match, High Tide in the finals SCG Seattle (Feline (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?33551-feline) Longmore)
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24982-REPORT-5th-Place-at-SCG-STL-with-High-Tide&highlight=high+tide Tournament report, SCG St Louis top 8 (topef27 (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?34889-topef27)/Jonathan Thatch)
https://wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/1097 Article after the Michael Bernat SCG Indianapolis, 1st place High Tide finish (Conley Wood)
http://starcitygames.com/events/coverage/finals_lauren_nolen_vs_michael.html Feature match, High Tide in the finals SCG Indianapolis (Michael Bernat)
2nd wave, early 2012:
http://www.azmagicplayers.com/articles/spiraling-to-top-8-an-scg-phoenix-legacy-top-8-report/ Tournament report, SCG Phoenix top 8 (Nathan Cardinell)
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=10358 Article from GP Indianapolis top 8 (Di (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?20-Di)/Colin Chilbert)
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpind12/welcome#4 Feature match, High Tide in the top 4 Grand Prix Indianapolis (Di (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?20-Di)/Colin Chilbert)
http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/finals_eric_becker_vs_andrew_s.html Feature match, High Tide in the finals SCG Charlotte (Eric Becker)

Effects of Mental Misstep, mid-late 2011:
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/22961_A-Unique-Approach-To-Legacy-High-Tide.html Article after the banning of Mental Misstep (Anwar Ahmad)
1st wave, early 2011:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21606_Building_A_Legacy_Candelabra_Of_Tawnos_Is_The_New_Imperial_Recruiter.html Article during peak of High Tide's 1st wave (Drew Levin)
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21584_Finals_Jesse_Hatfield_vs_David_Thomas.html Feature match, High Tide in the finals SCG Atlanta (Jesse Hatfield)
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21300_Finals_Alix_Hatfield_vs_Eli_Kassis.html Feature match, High Tide in the finals SCG Edison (Alix Hatfield)
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21150_Eternal_On_The_Other_Side_Of_The_Ocean_ComboControl_Rising.html Article after the unbanning of Time Spiral (Carsten Kotter)
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/20867_Deck_Tech_Jacob_Baughs_Spring_Tide.html Deck Tech from the 1st Spiral Tide deck to top 16 at the Open Series, January 2011 SCG Kansas (Jacob Baugh)
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/20810_Time_Spiral_Storm.html Article right at the unbanning of Time Spiral (Drew Levin)

High Tide decklist sources:
Starcitygames.com High Tide decklists starting Jan-2011 (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?t[T2]=3&event_ID=&feedin=&start_date=2010-12-19&end_date=2013-03-17&city=&state=&country=&start=1&finish=32&exp=&p_first=&p_last=&simple_card_name[1]=High+Tide&simple_card_name[2]=Time+Spiral&simple_card_name[3]=&simple_card_name[4]=&simple_card_name[5]=&w_perc=0&g_perc=0&r_perc=0&b_perc=0&u_perc=0&a_perc=0&comparison[1]=%3E%3D&card_qty[1]=1&card_name[1]=&comparison[2]=%3E%3D&card_qty[2]=1&card_name[2]=&comparison[3]=%3E%3D&card_qty[3]=1&card_name[3]=&comparison[4]=%3E%3D&card_qty[4]=1&card_name[4]=&comparison[5]=%3E%3D&card_qty[5]=1&card_name[5]=&sb_comparison[1]=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty[1]=1&sb_card_name[1]=&sb_comparison[2]=%3E%3D&sb_card_qty[2]=1&sb_card_name[2]=&card_not[1]=&card_not[2]=&card_not[3]=&card_not[4]=&card_not[5]=&order_1=date+desc&order_2=&limit=100&action=Show+Decks&p=1)
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tipo.php?archetype=Spiral%20Tide&format=Legacy
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/blog.php?b=7932 2012-13 decklists

Legacy metagame:
http://www.starcitygames.com/pages/decklists/
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/formato.php?format=Legacy&page=1
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24023-40-Tier-Legacy-Decks-Lists-Singles-Prices-etc-To-be-updated-regularly(started-2012)

For Solidarity: Reset, instant speed High Tide
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?12086-Deck-Solidarity

7) The Previous High Tide thread by egosum (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?28891-egosum): http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20172-PRIMER-Spiral-Tide

[feline]

8) 30 Match ups: Based mostly on decks that have performed with some level of consistent, higher placings since Return to Ravnica Legacy)

1.) RUG: (Disruption, Moderate-Heavy playtesting recommended, a more common match up)
This isn't the most favorable match up, but it's not the most unfavorable either.
Basic Game plan: Last as long as possible and get as many lands into play as you can before going off, always keep their next combat phase, possible burn, and threshold (Wild Mongoose) in mind, remember at any turn there's the possibility of them playing a Wasteland, hit their own land, play a burn or draw spell, Daze it, pay 1, and that's 4 cards into their graveyard! So if you're low on life make sure those 1/1's becoming 3/3's won't become lethal. Play around Daze when you can. Try to get a Candelabra of Tawnos into play in the turns before going to go off, if they don't have Stifle when you cast High Tide, you'll be able to use it to untap, which is important if you have to pay 1 additional to a Daze. Also tap out your opponent with Turnabout whenever you get the chance, worst case scenario, it'll draw out a Counterspell from their hand. Last round at the Open in Los Angeles, my opponent was tapped out as I started combo'ing off, and I learned they were holding Pyroblast and other counters in hand they couldn't cast not only when I started to combo, but also after the resolved Time Spiral. Another helpful hint, if they cast Daze against your High Tide and you have another High Tide in hand, cast it in response, if it resolves, you'll tap to pay 1 for the daze, but you'll already be tapping for 2.
Sideboarding: Out -1 High Tide, -Any maindeck bounce / In +Pact of Negation.
Sideboard game plan: Your goal is largely unchanged, in additon to the main strategy, expect them to bring in Pyroblast, Red Elemental Blast, possibly Surgical Extraction, and maybe something to go after your candles like Ancient Grudge. Wanting more counter's against you, they will likely go down on their burn, I've even had some RUG players admit they will cut out a Wasteland or 2.

2.) U/W control Variants: (Disruption, Moderate-Heavy playtesting recommended, a more common match up)
Counterbalance is one of the last permanents you want to see sitting across the table.
Basic Game plan: They are a control deck, so you will be able to utilize time to get more Islands into play and more Counterspells into hand, but don't forget so will they. That means if you can go off early with enough protection then do it. If they're smart (and always play assuming they are), they will want as many Islands untapped against you at all times during your turn. If they at the end of your turn, tap Sensei's Divining Top, and cast Entreat the Angels, remedy this with Flusterstorm, if they expect it and leave some lands untapped, then draw out a Force of Will battle to increase the storm count, you can even save a Brainstorm using to increase the number of spells played. As far as trying to go off, do everything you can to stop Counterbalance from resolving, if it does resolve, then don't let Sensei's Divining Top. If that happens, get to a Wipe Away via Merchant Scroll or Cunning Wish so you can attempt to bounce away the Counterbalance at the end of their turn before you try going off. As a last resort, you can "bait" the Sensei's Divining Top to the top of their deck by playing anything that costs 1, if they tap and put it on top, cast Time Spiral in the hopes that after they shuffle, what's left on top doesnt have a converted mana cost of 1.
Sideboarding: Out -1 High Tide -1 Candelabra / In +Pact of Negation, & if you have 2 Wipe away total, 1 main 1 sideboard.
Sideboarding game plan: The will likely bring in Red Elemental Blast / Pyroblast, another Vendilion Clique, possibly Enlightened Tutor from their "toolbox" of a sideboard, and possibly Surgical Extraction. Your goal largely remains unchanged, if they attempt to cast Enlightened Tutor, no matter what they've added from their sideboard, remember Counterbalance plus Sensei's Divining Top is still their ultimate goal against you.

3.) Esperblade: (Disruption, Moderate-Heavy playtesting recommended, a more common match up)
Basic game plan: Their clock isn't fast, they will likely cast a Stoneforge Mystic, net a Batterskull, put it into play a turn later, then finally start attacking, even then you will likely have more turns to gather more protection if you feel it's necessary. They have discard for early disruption, but between Brainstorm, Flusterstorm and Force of Will, not to mention how resilient your deck is to recover between your tutors and card draw, unless they draw a ton of disrupation, they're only slowing you down and you'll still have time for recovery since their own kill condition will take a few combat steps.
Sideboarding: Out -Any maindeck bounce, -1 High Tide -1 Candelabra / In +Pact of Negation, +Flusterstorm.
Sideboarding game plan: They will likely bring in more disruption, be it more discard, Counterspells, or a combination of the two from their sideboard, as well as Sword of Feast and Famine and possibly Surgical Extraction. The biggest change to note, is Sword of Feast and Famine, that means if it starts swinging at you, you will have to discard a card every turn, and they will almost always have their lands untapped against you. If they set themselves up for a "soft lock" to make you discard a card every turn and you aren't able to go off before it starts, hold back playing a land once you have enough in play, and further Candelabra of Tawnos if you already have one in play so you're not discarding more vital counterspells.

4.) BUG Decks: (Disruption, Moderate-heavy playtesting recommended, a more common match up)
Ah the different variants of BUG.
Basic game plan: However "different," BUG decks will still run, different variants, of the same disruption plan as a whole. Counters like, Counterspell, Force of Will and Daze, discard cards like Hymn to Tourach, Inquisition of Kozilek and Thoughtseize, and direct answers to permanants like Abrupt Decay. Anything else they do is just a kill condition, mana, or card draw. Defend against their early discard with Brainstorm and counters, Flusterstorm is great here, I've personally used it to counter turn 1 / 2 discard countless times, while turn 3 / 4 it's protection for when you start to combo off against their other plan, opposing Counterspells. For their Abrupt Decays, just hold Candelabra of Tawnos in hand until you're going to use it, it still doesn't stop it's untap effect. Even destroying it, Time Spiral puts it back in your deck, increasing your chance to draw into more untap effects just like Turnabout. The differences in BUG after that? BUG aggro will try to kill you faster, and BUG control will likely have more disruption.
Sideboarding: Out -Any maindeck bounce, -1 High Tide, against slower BUG control builds, you can also -1 Candelabra / In +1 Blue Sun's Zenith (If you don't have one maindeck already), +Flusterstorm, +Pact of Negation.
Sideboarding game plan: They're likely to bring in more disruption, anything from Vendilion Clique, more discard, or more counters. The 2 scariest cards that I have personally seen been brought in against me from some opposing BUG decks however, are Flusterstorm, and not Surgical Extraction, but Extirpate. This is one of the decks sometimes run them. The ultimate goal against this is to still cut them off from their mana with Turnabout. While the back up plan against Extirpate effects, is 1 High Tide in the sideboard. If they hit Cunning Wish, that is why the Blue Sun's Zenith is now in the main deck.

5.) Jund: (Disruption, Moderate playtesting recommended, a more common match up)
Basic game plan: Their disruption is what you have to worry about most, luckily however it is all opposing discard, not counters, so your Brainstorms will help in addition to your own counters. After that, it's getting to your lethal, before they get to theirs. Early game Flusterstorms are nice here against Thoughtseize's & Hymn to Tourach's.
Sideboarding: Out -Any maindeck bounce, -1 High Tide / In +1 Blue Sun's Zenith (If you don't have one maindeck already), + Flusterstorm.
Sideboarding game plan: Similar to game 1, except expect them to possible bring in Red Elemental Blasts & sometimes more discard from the sideboard, so scrolling for a single Pact of negation is an option you might want for those blasts when trying to go off and spending less mana doing the start of the combo.

6.) Dredge: (Combo, Heavy disruption, Light-Moderate playtesting required, however a less common match up)
This is one of the most unfavorable match up's you can go against, long story short, they dredge a few times, then the turn before you can even go off, they cast Cabal Therapy. Have some protection? Doesn't matter, they will sac creatures, and cast it again, and again, and again, ripping your hand apart and literally Cabal Therapying it away. All you can do is hope you can go off before they can, because if they do that, you will have an empty hand, and an incoming combat step the following turn that will be lethal. The only possible outs you have is to game 1 Cunning Wish for graveyard hate, or stall them enough to combo out before they swing with their zombie army, however wishing for hate or comboing requires you to get to your turn 3 at a minimum, and you might not even make it that far. Try to buy yourself as much time as possible by stopping their enablers to dredge, that being Careful Study, Faithless Looting and Putrid Imp.
Sideboarding: Out -1 High Tide, -Any maindeck bounce / In +2 Grafdigger's Cage, or whatever your graveyard hate is, +Flusterstorm The game will be about the same as the first, attempt to slow them down by countering their dredge enablers, if you get the chance, Cunning Wish for a Surgical Extraction as to slow them down even more so you can combo out before they do, in the end, it's a race, and while their only disruption is Cabal Therapy, because it's dredge, they can have access to a playset of them very fast.

7.) Maverick: (Disruption, Light-Moderate playtesting required)
Very favorable game 1, and an incredible sideboard against you.
Basic game plan: Game 1 should be favored, their disruption is Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Green Sun's Zenith for Gaddock Teeg if they're even main decking it as a one of (In which, always assume they are when casting the Green Sun), Qasali Pridemage, and a Mother of Runes to protect any of their hate bears. Also Fauna Shaman because of it's ability is a card to watchout for, but sometimes it's just too slow. Use your Flusterstorm's on Green Sun's Zenith, save Brainstorm to increase storm count when necessary. If they try waiting till turn 5 or later to cast Green Sun's Zenith for 3 while leaving 3 mana open, that's just too slow for your combo. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is a Force of Will priority, but if it makes it to the field, you're going to have to bounce it, if you have to play through it with your first few spells as you start to combo, get a Candelabra of Tawnos in play the turn before you're going to go off because it's going to cost 2 to cast, and you might not be able to afford that the following turn.
Sideboarding: Out -1 High Tide, if you run cage's -1 Flusterstorm / +2 Grafdigger's Cage if you're running them.
Sideboarding game plan: 1 Flusterstorm in hand, stops 1 Green Sun's Zenith, however, 1 Grafdigger's Cage in play, stops all Green Sun's Zenith. Flusterstorms are only going to counter their Green Sun's Zeniths, and in some builds, the 1 or 2 Enlightened Tutor they will bring in from the sideboard, that's about it. At the Open in Portland, a Maverick opponent admitted when I asked, that they were holding Green Sun's Zenith in hand post sideboard because of a resolved Grafdigger's Cage. As far as everything else goes, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is no longer the top Force of Will priority, but it's still high, #1 however, it's Ethersworn Canonist, that thing is literally the worst, it's the only one that stops you from comboing completely under any situation with it remaining in play. Other things to watch out for in addition to Ethersworn Canonist are Choke and Stony Silence from the Enlightened Tutor toolbox, though stony silence isn't really that devastating as you have other ways to untap. Aven Mindcensor, another Gaddock Teeg and Qasali Pridemage. Sometimes Choke literally does nothing if you just High Tide and use an untap effect, the Stony Silence can just be bounced, and it doesn't stop you from untapping everytime you Time Spiral or Turnabout, and the Aven Mindcensor will really only effect Merchant Scroll and fetchlands, so just play your fetchlands first. Also don't forget, counter Fauna Shaman early, but let it resolve if you're just going to combo off next turn.

8.) Ad Nauseam Storm decks: (Combo, Disruption, Moderate playtesting recommended)
Whether it's ANT or TES, the engine is the same, the specific differences will be whether or not they're running Silence or more discard spells. Their ultimate goal will be to Ad Nauseam, the key cards to get to it will be Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor, and depending on the state of the game Past in Flames. Round 2 of the Open in Seattle I went against this deck, and my goal was to get as many Counterspells into my hand as possible, especially Flusterstorm, one of our games he just couldn't go off because I was at one point holding 2 in my hand and he was out of disruption aka discard. The rule here, again, play the control deck! Stop them from going off, once you draw half of your combo, feel free to net the other half via a tutor and then go off, but until then, play the control deck. Remember you can't kill them if you tutor for a High Tide, pass the turn, and then they start to combo off. Also if they try to cast Past in Flames, you can Cunning Wish for graveyard hate and extract their Infernal Tutors in the graveyard, or nuke their graveyard all together with ravenous trap.
Sideboarding: Out -Any maindeck bounce, -1 High Tide / In +Flusterstorm, +1 Pact of Negation. Luckily, their sideboard is similar to your own, it's netted with wish targets, so the true sideboard cards they have options to are limited. At worst, you'll see some more discard come in from the sideboard. Games 2 and 3 will likely be very similar to game 1, with the possible exception being if they just happened to be a list running Surgical Extractions in their sideboard, however, Ad Nauseam Storm is one of the 2 least likely decks that will actually have any, the other being belcher.

9.) U/R Delver: (Disruption, Light-Moderate playtesting recommended)
Somewhere between RUG and Burn, this deck exists.
Basic game plan: Similarities to RUG in it's counters, Force of Will, Spell Pierce, Daze, and to burn in Price of Progress, Chain Lightning, and Goblin Guide. The actual burn cards themselves are the weakest, you have basic lands, Island and counters if you get low. Just bide your time like you do as normal, getting as many Islands into play as possible while taking combat phases, set yourself up along the way with your card draw and tutors for combo pieces and more counters, and attempt to go off accordingly, and tap them out with Turnabout as soon as possible, the only additional "trick" to note here, is that, just like against RUG, get a Candelabra of Tawnos into play a turn before you attempt to go off, making their taxing counters (Daze, Spell Pierce) weaker or even useless if you can just untap afterward with a High Tide resolved.
Sideboarding: -1 High Tide, -Any maindeck bounce / +Pact of Negation
Sideboarding game plan: They will bring in Red Elemental Blast, Pyroblast and possibly Surgical Extraction. (Flusterstorm was also in the sideboard of one of the two U/R Delver decks that made top 8 in Cincinnati in October, always remember any blue deck has access the possibility of sideboarding these.) Aside from the sideboard changes, in which it's just more disruption from your opponent, and more Counterspells for yourself, the game plan remains the same.

10.) Show & Tell variants: Omnitell / Sneak & Show. (Combo, Disruption, Moderate-Heavy playtesting recommended, a more common match up)
These decks are different because of 1 key thing, the enchantments: Sneak Attack and Omniscience.
Basic Game plan against Sneak Attack: It costs 4. Do everything you can to prevent it from resolving, it will be the hardest card to stop because you cannot Flusterstorm it directly, and with 1 red mana available, their bomb comes out swinging, eliminating your permanents or drawing 7 or 14 cards for more Counterspells.
Basic Gameplan against Omniscience: It costs 10, that's not being cast from hand anytime soon, so the card to look out for in it's place? Burning Wish. In which, the wish, is either a Show and Tell or an Overmaster in waiting, however, unlike Sneak Attack you still have access to Flusterstorm.
Basic Gameplan against both Sneak Attack and Omnitell: Play the control deck, use your Merchant Scrolls to get more counters unless you're comboing off! A High Tide does nothing without Time Spiral and 'vise versa' and they do nothing to stop your opponent from going off. However you can use Counterspells to both defend (them going to combo) and attack (you going to combo). So don't tutor for a combo piece if it doesn't mean having the rest of the combo in hand. If they Show and Tell or Burning Wish early, your Flusterstorms will really shine here, hold Brainstorm accordingly if you need to increase storm count, even draw out a Force of Will battle which will also get one out of their hand. Always assume they're going to Show and Tell at any time. There are also moments of opportunity here, if there's a Show and Tell, Burning Wish (Omnitell), or Sneak Attack (Sneak and Show) in the graveyard, you might be able to buy yourself a ton of turns by casting Cunning Wish and getting Surgical Extraction, in worst case scenario, you'll still likely draw another Counterspell from their hand.
Sideboarding: Out -1 High Tide, -Any maindeck bounce/ In +Flusterstorm, +Pact of Negation
Sideboarding game plan: They will likely bring in Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast, and possibly Surgical Extraction and Defense Grids. If they cast a Defense Grid, can't combo until their next turn, and you can, then let it resolve. If they cast a Defense Grid and have enough to combo, you'll either have to counter it because of lack of mana available, or you can "risk it" and let it resolve, then pay 3 to Counterspell their Show and Tell afterward in the hopes that they have no back up. (Playing Defense Grid to draw out one of your Counterspells.)

11.) Reanimator: (Combo, Disruption, Moderate playtesting recommended)
If you actually run into someone still playing this (thank you Deathrite Shaman and friends) it is one of the less favorable match up's. Try to fight their disruption and their Reanimates with Flusterstorm and Force of Will, in addition to Brainstorm against their discard. Similar to fighting Show and Tell decks, play the control deck until you can go off, netting as many Counterspells along the way, remember if you Merchant Scroll for a High Tide, it means nothing without Time Spiral in hand, or against them trying to resolve a Reanimate next turn! Also never forget, they're playing reanimator, and you can Cunning Wish for Surgical Extraction from game 1, which is especially important since they will likely try to Reanimate Iona, Shield of Emeria.
Sideboarding: Out -Any maindeck bounce and as always, that -1 High Tide. Add +Flusterstorm and +Pact of Negation and of course, bring in that graveyard hate. Like any deck running Swamps and Islands they will likely bring in more disruption through Counterspells and discard.

12.) Belcher: (Combo, Light playtesting required)
You will not likely know that you are playing against belcher, until after game 1 starts, meaning that if you have Force of Will in hand, you got lucky, if you don't, and you're on the draw with a Flusterstorm in hand, they're on the play and they turn 1 go off, there's nothing you can do, that is the pinnacle of game 1's, whether or not you have Force of Will
Sideboarding: Out -1 High Tide / In +1 Flusterstorm. As noted earlier against Ad Nauseam storm, this is the other deck that is not likely to be running Surgical Extraction, however because of that 'just in case', switch 1 High Tide for 1 Flusterstorm because you want Flusterstorm against this deck. If you're on the play, feel free to mulligan to a Force of Will or a Flusterstorm, and of course, at least 1 Island. On the draw, you will want to be a little more aggressive getting to Force of Will. If you got lucky game 1 and won, all you have to do is win one of the 2 sideboard games, and you have the ultimate weapon against a combo deck like belcher that is all aggression and no defense.

13.) Elves: (Combo, Light-Moderate playtesting recommended)
This matchup should also be in your favor, they have no access to blue to protect their Glimpse of Nature which is a key card to counter, key cards number 2 & 3 would be Natural Order, or a Green Sun's Zenith for high amounts of mana, usually to get Regal Force. In the end, this match is a race and you are setup with protection that also allows you to disrupt their attempt at their combo. Also watch out for Green Sun's Zenith into Viridian Shaman against your Candelabra of Tawnos. Use your Flusterstorm's early as once they will have out multiples of Elves, they become significantly weaker, making them pay 2 or 3 to resolve their Glimpse of Nature can still cause them to stall out if they don't have enough to continue properly with their engine.
Sideboarding: Out -1 High Tide, / In +1 Flusterstorm, if you are running Cages, against lists run Natural Order & Green Sun's Zenith, +2 Cages instead of Flusterstorm. Things they might bring in against you are Thorn of Amethyst, Gaddock Teeg as a Green Sun's Zenith target, and possible something to disrupt your Candelabra of Tawnos. Largely the gameplay will remain the same, except you will also need to Force of Will Thorn of Amethyst as a priority in addition to Glimpse of Nature.

14.) Merfolk: (Disruption, Moderate playtesting recommended)
This is another match up that can be trying, it depends whether or not they get enough disruption, that in which will be Force of Will, Daze and Cursecatcher. Waiting as long as possible to get the most Islands into play is the aim, but against this deck especially you have to really watch their board. An Aether Vial in play means they can at end of turn put in another lord, then on their turn they put in another lord, then they attack with their creatures, and decide to activate their Mutavault, swinging for almost lethal damage when a turn before, they had out a much less threatening board. As for starting to combo, because they run taxing counters (Daze and Cursecatcher) get a Candelabra of Tawnos into play a turn before starting to combo if you can, to make that strategy weaker or even useless against you.
Sideboarding: Out -1 High Tide, -Any maindeck bounce / In +Pact of Negation. The ultimate goal remains largely unchanged, protect your combo with as many counters as possible, get as many Islands into play as you can by taking a few combat steps, then attempt to combo off accordingly through their disruption.

15.) Goblins: (Light playtesting required)
It's a race to see who gets to their lethal first.
Basic game plan: Game 1 should be favored in your win especially, priorities should be to counter early Aether Vials and turn 1 Goblin Lackey without the assistance of Cavern of Souls, and counter Goblin Piledriver whenever possible if you're going to be taking a combat phase with it swinging because of Goblin Warchiefs haste, or having to wait an additional turn to try and combo. Beyond that it is just a race to see who gets to their lethal first, and never forget that being at 17 on turn 3, can still mean taking lethal damage on turn 4 when they vial in a warchief, then dump a bunch of goblins from hand and swing for that much, goblins is an explosive deck.
Sideboarding: Out -1 High Tide, / In +1 Pact of Negation, if you suspect Pyrostatic Pillar -or- Thorn of Amnythest, 1 maindeck & 1 sideboard Wipe Away's
Sideboarding game plan: I've seen goblin decks bring in everything from Relic of Progenitus to Thorn of Amethyst. But the cards that will almost always come in against you at a minimum, are Red Elemental Blast, Pyroblast, and sometimes Mindbreak Trap or Surgical Extraction. All of these can be treated with Counterspells, so being able to tutor for a 1 of "free to cast" Pact of Negation is a nice option. If they try the Relic of Progenitus / Tormod's Crypt route, that's fine, any deck that brings in those or even Leyline of the Void, sure you're lose some cards but they're not going to hit everything. In all my games, I have never even come close to losing because of the "remove my graveyard from the game" strategy. Even against Leyline of the Void you just stop while you combo on, grab a Wipe Away, bounce it, and continue. If you suspect Pyrostatic Pillar / Thorn of Amnythest, Force of will's and Wipe away's help the most with those.

16.) Zombies, Zombardment, Walking Dead, etc: (Disruption, Light-Moderate playtesting recommended, however a less common match up)
Sam Black must be proud, I think he's had more top 8's at the Open Series with this deck, than all of the other's combined, and even though it's a less common deck to run into, it's one of the decks to have 2 or more top 8's since Return to Ravnica Legacy.
Basic game plan: Their disruption Tidehollow Sculler, Cabal Therapy and Thoughtseize. Counter their early discard with Flusterstorm early since, all their disruption costs 1 or is a creature, also Tidehollow Sculler is both disruption and 2 combat damage a turn, but don't forget you have access to Snap to get your card back, so judge accordingly whether to Force of Will them vs Thoughtseize. The toughest disruption is Cabal Therapy, sac a creature, recast Cabal Therapy so save your Brainstorm for those, if you get lucky you can "next level" them, and keep in hand what they think you'd put back on top, but it's a risk, and since it's not a 100% guarantee, it's usually not a risk worth taking, so put your vital cards back on top of your deck! After that, they are just an aggro deck and it's a race!
Sideboarding: Out -1 High Tide, / if you run cages as your graveyard hate, In +2 Grafdigger's Cage to prevent Cabal Therapies from hitting twice!
Sideboarding game plan: Most importantly, the cages will weaken their Cabal Therapys, and tricks with Goblin Bombardment where they swing, sac, and recast Gravecrawler or put Bloodghast back into play through -landfall-, slowing their clock down in addition to weakening their therapies. As with any deck, assume Surgical Extraction will also come in against you and Counterspell accordingly. Beyond the changes, the battle plan is still the same, you're both racing each other for lethal first.

17.) 12post: (Light playtesting required, however a less common match up)
Basic game plan: You're fighting a ramp deck with a combo element (they also run Show and Tell), so counter accordingly, use Flusterstorm's whenever they're optimal because each turn they will have access to more & more mana. Aside from Show and Tell, they have similar goals at first as you, take the first couple turns setting up by getting lands into play. When they finally attempt to "go off" however, that is where things will differ, they will simply just cast a "bomb" from their hand, the only ones that will interact with you are the Eldrazi favorites Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (extra turn when cast, then + Annihilator 6 + 15 damage) & Ulamog, the Infinite Eye (destroy permanent when cast, then if a following turn, Annihilator 4 + 10 damage)
Sideboarding: -1 High Tide just in case they have Extractions, aside from that, make sure you have maindeck & sideboard bounce access.
Sideboarding game plan: They will likely bring in Chalice of the Void & possibly even Flusterstorm based on the list that got 1st in San Diego. Watch out for opposing Flusterstorms, you can not counter it back traditionally like other counters. If you want to be absolutely sure that you're safe, attempt to tap them out with a Turnabout the turn before you're about to go off. At a minimum drawing one out of their hand. If you suspect a Flusterstorm mid combo, try not to cast your most vital spells without enough mana until you can tap them out, declare the attack step to empty their mana pool, then continue accordingly.

18.) Junk/The Rock: (Disruption, Light-Moderate playtesting recommended)
Their disruption is really only in discard and permanent removal in Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom Pulse and sometimes Vindicate, also don't forget a Green Sun's Zenith for a possible Gaddock Teeg. So just hold your Candelabra of Tawnos in hand until you're ready to go off if you expect them to destroy them. As far as their discard goes, you have Brainstorm, Flusterstorm and Force of Will, so use them accordingly.
Sideboarding: Out -1 High Tide, / In +Flusterstorm. Even though Pact of Negation will really only counter (unless you have 5 Island and play and can afford to take another combat step) their Surgical Extraction as you combo, because BUG and Junk/The Rock/Green White Black decks will sometimes run Extirpate, if their disruption hits your Cunning Wish, you will need Blue Sun's Zenith to be in the maindeck. Other things they might bring in against you are more discard Hymn to Tourach, Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek, and a Gaddock Teeg as a Green Sun's Zenith target if they aren't maindecking one already.

19.) Death & Taxes: (Disruption, Light-Moderate playtesting recommended, however a less common match up)
This matchup should be another in your favor, however they still have stuff to watchout for, mainly Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Mother of Runes to attempt to protect it, Phyrexian Revoker to slow down your Candelabra of Tawnos, and Mangara of Corondor later game to start removing your lands from the game with Karakas. Most of their disruption however is just a little too slow, or doesn't do enough, so the priority really is just Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, answering it with Force of Will and Wipe Away/snap. One trick to watch out for later game is if they have a Mother of Runes in play and a Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, if they suspect Wipe Away they will on their upkeep give it protection from blue before you get priority, then if you bounce it, they will replay it, so you'll have to either do that and then counter it, or wait to bounce it on your own turn, if they give it protection from blue on your upkeep when they get priority, if you've set yourself up for you combo turn, you can High Tide which will cost 2, then tap your remaining Island in play to untap via a Candelabra of Tawnos that you put into play a previous turn, then cast Wipe Away on the Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, having enough remaining Island untapped that you can still tap for 6 to cast Time Spiral during your main step, it is the same trick that Maverick will sometimes try to use against you.
Sideboarding: Out -1 High Tide / have maindeck & sideboard bounce available. They will likely bring in Ethersworn Canonist, and just in case they are using Surgical Extraction, you have that 1 High Tide in the sideboard. The gameplan largely remains the same, except Ethersworn Canonist is now the priority to counter, followed by Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. If they resolve an Ethersworn, they can still cast more, but if they resolve a Thalia, it's legendary, so there will only ever be 1, and you can just bounce it.

20.) High Tide: The Mirror Match! (Playtesting recommended, however a less common match up)
I must say, it's awesome to be addressing this deck on the list, luckily though, a mirror match is very unlikely. If it happens however:
Basic game plan: Game 1 could be the only game that matters, you might not even get to a game 3. The biggest thing to remember in the mirror match, is that, whoever's turn it is has access to their sorceries, while the other player does not, so you need to be in a position to combo off before they do. You might even be able to stall them out with Flusterstorm and Force of Will if you're lucky if they attempt to combo out first. Also, if 1 player starts going off, the High Tide player who is waiting will still have access to Cunning Wish into Brain Freeze at any time until they are tapped out, so the whole match could literally come down to an incredible Counterspell war over resolving Turnabout, remember once a certain number of spells are played, Brain Freeze becomes a lethal possiblity everytime you go to draw a card.
Sideboarding: Out -Any maindeck bounce, -1 High Tide, can also -1 Candelabra since it's likely to be a slow, long, grindy game like any mirror match / In +1 Flusterstorm, +Pact of Negation
Sideboarding game plan: Your goal is still the same, start comboing out before they do, but be careful of opposing Flusterstorms, if your opponent is running them to, then don't forget the storm count and mana available every time you cast Time Spiral.

21.) U/G Enchantress: (Combo, Light playtesting required, however a less common match up)
Another deck to have 2 or more top 8 placing at the Open Series since Return to Ravnica Legacy. Another one of the more favorable matchups, just Counterspell their engine that is Argothian Enchantress and Enchantress's Presence, or Green Sun's Zenith which can get to Enchantress. After that, most of their enchantments are not going to interact with you, save for their 2 of Words of Wind. Your ultimate goal against them, is alot more effective than their ultimate goal against you.
Sideboarding: Out -1 High Tide, -1 Flusterstorm / if you're running cages, In +2 Grafdigger's Cage. Green Sun's Zenith is practically the only thing you'd counter with Flusterstorm, and you have plenty of counters and ways to get to them for their opposing Force of Will they will bring in from the sideboard, but again, other than the addition to Force of Will, they will have little interaction with you.

22.) Aggroloam: (Light disruption, Light playtesting required, however a less common match up)
Basic game plan: Routes to kill you, swing with creatures, secondary, ditch lands to Seismic Assault, refill with Life from the Loam, repeat until dead. Conclusion, your clock is faster than their clock. Their disruption might be Liliana of the Veil and "some" discard, but most Aggro Loam lists are not too well equipped with answering spells directly, they mainly focus on any potential permanents that can hit the field, with things like Maelstrom Pulse[cards], the burn from discarding a land to assault, [cards]Engineered Explosives, stuff that really does little to prevent you from comboing off.
Sideboarding: -1 High Tide, -any maindeck bounce. +1 Flusterstorm.
Sideboarding game plan: They will either bring in some discard, or Red Elemental Blasts/Pyroblasts. Largely though it should still remain a favorable match up because their disruption isn't as heavy as most other decks, just use brainstorm against their discard, save counters for their blasts, and watchout if you're getting low on cards in hand and they play a Liliana of the Veil. Comboing fast enough traditionally however, it shouldn't be an issue.

23.) Deadguyale: (Disruption, medium playtesting recommended, however a less common match up)
Basic game plan: This deck is basically a disruption aggro deck, if they get alot of disruption, it can slow you down, but if they don't hit enough you can still combo accordingly, also remember to save those Brainstorms for their opposing discard spells. After that, they might try creatures like Tidehollow Sculler, which can be bounced mid combo for a "free card back to your hand" that you might actually benefit from after a resolved Time Spiral. Aven Mindcensor will come down after you've dropped your 1st land drops, so use the fetchlands early so they don't get a "freebie" on your land drops. Other than that, all it does is affect Merchant Scroll
Sideboarding: -1 High Tide, have access to maindeck & sideboard bounce for your tutors because of some of their hate bears & after sideboarding, possibly Ethersworn Canonist.
Sideboarding game plan: This is one deck that also has potential to sideboard in Extirpate so also make sure you have a Blue Sun's Zenith maindeck if you don't run it main already, by sideboarding it into the maindeck, incase they discard your wishes, then Extirpate them with split second. Aside from that, make sure you can answer Ethersworn Canonist whether it's bounce before you combo or countering it, that thing is still one of the worst hate bears you can see and it's a priority that literally locks you out till you answer it if it hits play. Aside from their disruption, they will be turning guys sideways for their lethal to kill you, same as game 1.

24.) Mono Blue Aggro/Tempo: (Disruption, Moderate playtesting recommended, however a less common match up)
With this strategy having at least 2 top 8's at the Open Series since Return to Ravnica, I have to note it, with anything that has more than 1 top 8 placing in a given time frame, that shows some level of consistency. Though this is probably one of the rarer decks on the list, but I still took a look over the list and actually play tested against it, & if you're serious about play testing against literally Everything! This is a match up to take seriously. Chalice of the Void resolving at 1 cuts you out of half your deck, and your namesake card, High Tide. While their Force of Will, Daze, Phyrexian Revoker, Spellstutter Sprite, and Vendilion Clique that is half of their non land spells that are disruption. Against Stax, their clock is slow, so you can wait, at end of turn Rebuild and then go off, but you are against an aggro deck, so if they cast Chalice of the Void it is much more important to Counterspell it, at worst, they will burn a counter of their own trying to defend it. The other Force of Will priority if you're holding a vital combo piece in hand, is Vendilion Clique. Try to get to the point of being ready to combo, then at end of turn Turnabout them out before your next turn, drawing out a counter, or cutting them off from casting those Spellstutter Sprites.
Sideboarding: -1 High Tide / +Pact of Negation. If 2 Wipe Away, 1 maindeck 1 sideboard in case you have to bounce a Chalice of the Void at 1 that gets past your counters. If you suspect any deck of running Flusterstorm in their sideboard, this is one. (If you note the 2 decklists that have placed top 8 since October 1st 2012, both ran them) All you have to do is be aware and play around them, until you can cut them off of their mana by Turnabouting them.

25.) Zoo: (Light playtesting required, however a less common match up)
Basic game plan: If you actually run into someone playing this deck, it's got fast creatures & burn, similar to fighting a mono red burn deck itself, except that it can have a huge focus on tons of converted mana cost 1 drops, their disruption is very little however, one of the reasons the deck itself has fallen out of favor, it's fast, it's consistent, but it just doesn't do enough overall for being a higher tier Legacy deck right now. High Tide being a good example as to why, because this match is basically a race, and you will likely kill them before they kill you because they will be using the combat step as their primary win condition, backed up by burn, & as with most strategies of this nature, it's a favorable match up for High Tide, especially since their disruption is virtually null save for maybe a Qasali Pridemage or a Gaddock Teeg, which themselves are not effective enough, after that, "maybe" Thalia, Guardian of Thraben depending on the list & pilot playing it.
Sideboarding: -1 High Tide, have maindeck & sideboard bounce access post sideboard games.
Sideboarding game plan: They might bring in more Gaddock Teeg, and while it's not devastating, you still can't cast Time Spiral or Blue Sun's Zenith with that in play, so it will eventually need to be bounced. Aside from that, expect them to bring in the same possibly universal sideboard cards as anyone else with Surgical Extraction & Mindbreak trap as well as more expected hate from the colors of this aggro deck like Ethersworn Canonist & Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast.

26.) Painters Servant: (Combo, Moderate playtesting recommended, however a less common match up)
Basic game plan: Their goal is Painter's Servant + Grindstone to kill you, however, their deck is likely setup to really abuse Painter's Servant, so don't be surprised by game 1 Pyroblast & Red Elemental Blast. The main difference between builds is that if it's mono red, it has Imperial Recruiter and if it's U/R, it has Trinket Mage but the priority remains the same, they are tutors disguised as creatures for other parts of their deck, including combo pieces. Other potential cards to watch out for are Goblin Welder, if they cast that early, they can at any time sac an artifact in play for one in the graveyard, including any combo pieces you countered. Other lists will be more of a "stompy" list that run Magus of the Moon / Blood Moon, so just make sure you drop your fetchlands from hand first before Islands.
Sideboarding: -1 High Tide, +1 Pact of Negation for a Merchant Scroll'able, free counter against opposing Blasts.
Sideboarding game plan: They will likely bring in more Red Elemental Blasts / Pyroblasts in addition to possibly maindecking some already. They may also bring in Thorn of Amnythest, Chalice is less likely on account of Grindstone & blasts costing 1, & servant costing 2. As long as they don't get both combo pieces into play you should be fine, & even if they do get both pieces into play somehow early, it still costs 3 to activate Grindstone, so you might even get another turn, allowing you to bounce their Painter's Servant to buy another turn. As for Blue lists, watch out for opposing countermagic in addition to the Red Blasts.

27.) Lands: (Light playtesting required, however a less common match up)
Basic game plan: Another deck that is a long time favorite for some players, but a very rogue strategy right now, is Lands, though whenever the format slows down, the deck seems to "pop out of nowhere" and sneak in a top finish once in a while. Luckily however, that might work for Lands against the format, but it won't work so well for Lands against High Tide. You are basically fighting a prison deck that wants to control non basic lands (through recurring Wasteland via Life from the Loam) and permanents in play (through recurring Engineered Explosives via Academy Ruins, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale etc) But if you notice it already, these lines of play against High Tide are largely ineffective, which relies on spells and basic Islands in play, even Engineered Explosives doesn't stop the untap effect from Candelabra.
Sideboarding: -1 High Tide, though it is not likely they will be sideboarding Extractions, you just never know for sure. Make sure you have maindeck / sideboard bounce access after sideboarding.
Sideboarding game plan: You can also go lower on Flusterstorm since it won't hit much of anything but Enlightened Tutor or Intuition. Aside from that, they won't have alot against you, maybe Chalice of the Void in addition to their other weaker options against High Tide & their slow clock. Pre/Post sideboard, this is not a match up that should prove difficult, it's probably one of the easiest overall, as you can bounce their permanent hate, while everything else they cast is a bunch of lands.

28.) Liliana Pox: (Disruption, Moderate playtesting recommended, however a less common match up)
Basic game plan: This is a deck that has a ton of disruption, Discard, land destruction, pox like effects, recurring discard from Liliana of the Veil. If they cast enough disruption to get you down to 0 or 1 card in hand, then start up'ing Liliana of the Veil every turn to make you discard, you'll never have 2 cards in hand, which is needed to go off properly (A High Tide and a Time Spiral) so this is a deck that can actually soft lock you out with Liliana. If you are getting low on cards in hand and risk running into this problem, keep some cards in hand, don't play a 5th land if you don't need it to go off, don't play a candel if you have 4 lands in play, etc, use the minimum number of permanents to go off, if you are risking getting locked out because the cards in your hand are getting low. Aside from always remembering that, use your brainstorms & counters to fight their discard, as well as countering their more effective disruption that is smallpox (hits land & card in hand) or hymn to tourach (hitting 2 cards in hand) where as sinkhole only hits 1 card, inquisition of kozilek hits only 1 card in hand & can't hit Time Spiral or Force of will, and remember against any discard, you have Brainstorm. As far as their kill condition goes, it's things like Nether Spirit, Cursed Scroll & Mishra's Factory, all stuff that slowly does 2 damage, 2 damage, 2 damage, until you are dead, their clock is slow, BUT, their disruption is fast!
Sideboarding: Out -1 High Tide -Any maindeck bounce / In +Flusterstorm +1 Blue Sun's Zenith (If you don't have one maindeck already)
Sideboarding game plan: This is one of the few decks that might sideboard in Extirpate, they have so much disruption it's not hard to get a Cunning Wish into the graveyard, then attempt to remove all copies from the game, so make sure you have a Blue Sun's Zenith in the main post sideboard games, and of course, 1 High Tide in the sideboard for similar reasons. Beyond that, their disruption will only increase, they might take out the Cursed Scrolls for more disruption, as their gameplan against you will be to tear your hand apart and keep you from ever comboing by keeping your hand empty.

29.) Burn: (Light playtesting required)
A more favorable match up. Basic game plan: Game 1 it's just a race, either they will literally burn you to 0 life, or you will combo out before that point. Remember that most of their spells are going to do 3 damage at a minimum, so if you force something, force what does 4 damage or more like flame rift / fireblast, or a creature like goblin guide that can do 2/4/6/and so on damage. All you have to do is stall them out with your counters and get to your combo as soon as possible.
Sideboarding: Out -Any maindeck bounce, -1 High Tide / In +Flusterstorm.
Sideboarding game plan: Your goal largely remains unchanged, expect them to bring in the ever popular from the sideboard of red decks, Red elemental blasts / Pyroblasts. On your end, especially on the play, this is a match up that remains favorable, and if you suspect them holding some of their from the sideboard disruption, save a counter accordingly for it, or turnabout & tap them out the turn before you go off if you get to that point.

30.) Prison Stax: (Disruption, Light-Moderate playtesting recommended, however a less common match up)
A more favorable matchup. Basic game plan: They will have Chalice of the void, Trinisphere, Smokestack & Armageddon against you, that's about it. However, their clock isn't fast, so letting Trinisphere resolve is not an uncommon strategy since you can just Cunning wish for a massive artifact bounce spell like Hurkyl's Recall or Rebuild, then at the end of their turn before you go off, just bounce all their artifacts back to their hand. Smokestack & Armageddon are your priority counter targets, since losing your land is their most effective strategy against you, but if you get out 3 lands, their trinisphere's are less effective. As far as Chalice of the void goes, if they turn 1 a chalice on you and it's your turn 0, you would be more inclined to counter it, but if they do it for 1 when you are in a position to be able to wish - mass artifact bounce - then go off next turn, at that point it's fine letting it resolve. Remember their clock is usually slow, Magus of the Tabernacle / Mishra's Factory only swing for 2 a turn, though some lists do run Hero of Bladehold, which is faster.
Sideboarding: -1 High Tide / have access to maindeck & sideboard bounce of some kind, usually Wipe Away as single target & Rebuild/Hurkyl's Recall for mass bounce.
Sideboarding game plan: One popular card in such a sideboard is Leyline of Sanctity, however it doesn't stop you from comboing, it just stops you from targeting them until you bounce it, which is easy once you get all that mana, draw all those cards, and have access to those tutors for bounce. Just in case the opponent does have Surgical Extraction as their sideboard hate, you can still do 1 High Tide to the side "just in case" because you never know, though it is less likely in this deck since they don't want to cast Converted Mana Cost of 1 spells, since they're running Chalice of the Void.

__________

As a general rule against aggro decks, let them go for it with a few combat steps, waiting to go off until your last possible turn before lethal, then go off accordingly, saving your responses for any disruption they might have. Against decks that have no or very little disruption, it just comes down to a race.

As a general rule against combo decks, make sure they don't go off, you have to play the control deck against most other combo decks, remember, as long as they don't kill you, you can still kill them, so focus gathering Counterspells until you draw into one of your combo pieces, then tutor for the other half of it when you can go off before your opponents next chance to combo out again.

As a general rule against control decks, gather as much protection as possible, out of all strategies, getting your opponent to tap out and "cut them off" from their mana is more important here than anywhere else in most cases, and anytime you can draw a Counterspell out of your opponents hand is a plus.

As a general rule sideboarding, always remember that any deck might be sideboarding Mindbreak trap and Surgical Extraction, and any deck with Swamp might be sideboarding Extirpate.

After that, "do your homework." That means play testing as much as you can, try to become so familiar with the format that anyone you sit across from, from their first permanent or spell played you are already eliminating down the possibilities of what they are and are not likely playing, even if they keep their hand, then pass the turn without playing so much as a land, that should give you clues as to what they might be running. (Dredge or Belcher decks might do this.)

In the end, no matter how much research or playtesting we do, magic is an extremely diverse game, especially in Legacy. So many variables come into play. While we do make our own luck by having the resources (cards), building proper decklists, and knowing as much as possible about your given match up's and interactions in your given metagame, sometimes, you're just going to have a bad run, and any player who has played Magic long enough knows that. Statistically, when you go to a tournament with 200, 400, 800+ people, your chances of top 8 are 4%, 2%, 1%! Just by the numbers alone of the amount of people showing up. So don't be discouraged if you walk out with a winning record yet still don't make top 8 or get prizes, a winning record is still technically better than over half of the other people there, and if it helps, and you're playing High Tide, you will always have all those other High Tide players cheering you on no matter how well your day goes!

Just one perspective of many, ~Feline Longmore

Before the Tournament:
Before it starts, do that "extra setup" for the rounds, usually I go through the 1st 8 or 9, depending on the attendance where I'm at, etc, but basically I write 20 - 20 for all 3 games on the top of the 9 pages, THEN I go to about 80% of the way down and write down "HT, ST, Mana, Pact" (Currently I am not running meditate or I'd note that as well)
HT is high tide, even though I put a die on the single island, I always put a dash on paper for each high tide resolved, I don't EVER want that to be come an issue.
ST is for storm count, when I know I have to build up enough storm to go for Brain Freeze, OR they have so much mana available with their islands, it'll take me a while before my flusterstorms are hard counters, so I have to track storm count till then. Basically I take the 1st spell played by each player on the combo turn, in my graveyard I'll turn the high tide or whatever I casted sideways and ask them to do the same with their first spell played if they played one, or will play one. Then I just keep going without writing it down because the evidence is there, HOWEVER, if I get to the point of a Time Spiral, I say "before spiraling,how many spells played? & then put the dashes in accordingly, it saves a TON of time -vs- doing it individually in between every single spell, and it's accurate and all that stuff, & puts it on paper for when you Time Spiral and all the "evidence" of what was played, was shuffled away.
Mana is for whenever I Time Spiral, I will sometimes write the mana floating down, because it'll be a bit before it's used again, being that it take some time to shuffle & draw a new 7, and you don't ever want a die to roll over, or to forget a number just because of that.
Pact is for Pact of Negation, if a Pact resolves, I put a Dash there to represent that I'll have to pay 5 on my next upkeep or lose the game, if, one fizzles of course.
Meditate would just have dashes for each one cast, representing the number of turns I'll have to skip before my next one, if, one fizzles of course

[entreri_fans]

Really Really Impressive!

Thank you for your contribution to the deck, Feline!

[Raystar]

Really Really Impressive!

Thank you for your contribution to the deck, Feline!

Very nice primer! Good job!

[Seraph2k]

Great job! This Primer will help a lot of new high tide players! ... like me ;)

[Zombie]

Most current (successful, non-budget) Elves lists are GBw, run Deathrite+NO main, 4 targeted discard (4 Therapy or 2/2 Therapy/Seize) in the board, plus a couple Mindbreak Traps (which I think are wrong overall, though probably better than Leyline of Sanctity against High Tide. How badly does screwing up your Intuitions hurt you?). Sometimes, albeit rarely, you might see Chokes from the board.
G1 is simple, we're a purely positive deck preboard, can only interact on the battlefield, max. disruption is one Viridian Shaman or Pridemage as GSZ target. Counter our combo cards, and we're too slow to win. Post board, you're probably still favoured, but dunno, no extensive experience on the matchup.

[Irenicus]

Great primer! Thank you a lot, feline!

I have just one thing that I don't like at all and that is the name of the deck. In my opinion decks shouldn't be named after one card, if there are more decks in which that card sees play. I think that Spiral Tide is a perfect name for the deck and that even though Solidarity isn't currently played much naming Spiral Tide High Tide is confusing to newer players and possibly offending to older ones.

[Mackan]

Very well written!

...just add mystic remora and it'll be perfect ;)

[Justin]

I'm not a combo fan or a fan of this deck, but I really enjoyed reading this primer. It was very well done. I did notice one typo in the section on mulligans, omitting the word "likes". "Nobody LIKES to mulligan, but I absolutely HATE it". Great job though.

[TiMeWaLk]

Gratz for this huge piece of work feline!

[feline]

I'm not a combo fan or a fan of this deck, but I really enjoyed reading this primer. It was very well done. I did notice one typo in the section on mulligans, omitting the word "likes". "Nobody LIKES to mulligan, but I absolutely HATE it". Great job though.

Thank you and fixed! also I noted calling it "High Tide, version, Spiral Tide", & while it says that here atop the post, it still doesn't say that in the list of threads leading to here which is weird.

[TerribleTim68]

Holy crap Feline! Everybody needs a hobby, huh? :wink:

[SaberTooth]

Congratulations feline! im building the deck and this is a really useful thread

[Di]

The original discussion thread for High Tide has been closed. Please continue the discussion here.

Here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20172-PRIMER-Spiral-Tide) is the link to the original discussion thread for reference.

[TiMeWaLk]

@ TimeWalk sideboarding

Most of these are fine. There's always a small buffer on what you can get away with in boarding so there's no "exact" means of doing it, so I can't say you did anything incorrectly. Although I was a bit surprised you elected to board out a Meditate against the Stoneblade player knowing that they run discard. Outside of Stoneforge Mystic they don't have any clock at all, so I would likely keep this in the deck. The High Tide against Burn is really a choice of preference; I personally like to keep it in the deck because it increases your odds of naturally having it or finding it when most times it is difficult to survive to Wish for High Tide, but at the same time it's a perfectly logical choice to maximize Wish's efficiency to find it should you be able to stall them the first few turns. Another thing on Burn, but if the version you play against is rather creature heavy I'd consider boarding in the Snap as well. This is also nice because it helps the possibility of going off with fewer lands or turn three. The lack of Meditate against the Zombardment deck isn't crazy, but I'd likely keep it given their clock isn't amazing and they lack the permanent benefits to punish you for playing it (like Jund which has Liliana and Dark Confidant) so it's worthwhile to use to fight discard.

@ Force of Will on Stoneforge Mystic

This is pretty much always the wrong play, regardless of if you knew he had discard. Unless you're sitting in a late game situation where both decks are in topdeck mode and you can simply hardcast a Force, this is the wrong play. I haven't countered a Mystic in over a year, and the last time I did it cost me a match. It really shouldn't matter what they're getting, whether it's Feast and Famine or not. My philosophy here is if you have the option to Force it, then those cards are expendable anyway and can be discarded later by Feast and Famine so it isn't worth countering. The clock is 5-6 turns at best with this, which is plenty of time to find cards and win the game while still having that Force of Will as protection. Granted if they're attacking you with it for 4+ turns and you haven't won then it isn't likely, but point being you should be able to do before then. If they get Batterskull, then their clock is slightly larger but they lack that element of disruption which is better for you. Now if you Force it, you slow their (already slow) clock, but now lack two cards to protect against anything else in hand. I'd prefer to have them make me discard one at a time and take a few damage than lose my Force of Will when it could be used on something better. Plus, using Force on the Mystic also runs the risk of getting completely blown out if they have a second one. If you burn your Force on it and they follow that up with another one the following turn, you wasted the Force, whereas their second Stoneforge Mystic wasn't going to be relevant at all.


@ Side board against Stoneblade

I did not like to keep Meditate while facing a deck with Tourach, Snapcaster, Sword of F&F and other discard effects. I also don't like to be on the draw to cast Meditate. I felt better having Remora since they play counters, cantrips and discard spells. I may be wrong about the power of Meditate in that match up.


@ Zombardment

Same as for Stoneblade, I did not want Meditate on the draw. I have the feeling that I was puzzled by the discussion in this topic about cutting Meditates... I ended up siding them out maybe too often.


@ Force of Will on Stoneforge Mystic

I saw Michael Tabler do it and thought it was an interesting line of play. The bet is that I get much more turn to scult my hand by destroying their bad clock. However, I understand all your argumentation. I still don't know which play is the best because you cannot predict how fast they can get a new clock.


@ Peer Through Depths

I saw this list: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=4457&d=225864

It is a budget list but Peer Through Depths looks like a card I want to test. I did not get why he ran the Muddle the Mixture.

[feline]

Is if ok if I "quote" you Di ? I actually have your points on why to run Candelabra's saved from a discussion not too long ago, and I don't want to quote you if for some reason you don't want to be noted, but otherwise I would like to give proper notification there if I put something that you said specifically.

[neckfire]

Hi guys, I Plan on taking the tide to the DC open this weekend and i would like some input on the list. I'll post it then offer some notes/ reason for the changes.
12 [A] Island (2)
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [US] Turnabout
1 [FUT] Pact of Negation
2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
1 [MBS] Blue Sun's Zenith
4 [US] Time Spiral
3 [M11] Preordain
4 [8E] Merchant Scroll
2 [TE] Meditate
4 [FE] High Tide (2)
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [BD] Brainstorm
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 2 [FUT] Pact of Negation
SB: 1 [MBS] Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 [TE] Meditate
SB: 1 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [UL] Snap
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [JGC] Flusterstorm

the first thing is the main deck BSZ i have it cause in playing the deck ive found myself wanting to have just a maindeck non wishable way to go deep. It may not be needed but im still testing it this week. the sideboard is pretty standard extra copies of everything and ways to up counters in certain matchups.
the 3 turnabouts may be to many but still not sure if its right or not.
anyways thoughts?

[astormbrewing]

Hi guys, I Plan on taking the tide to the DC open this weekend and i would like some input on the list. I'll post it then offer some notes/ reason for the changes.
12 [A] Island (2)
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [US] Turnabout
1 [FUT] Pact of Negation
2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
1 [MBS] Blue Sun's Zenith
4 [US] Time Spiral
3 [M11] Preordain
4 [8E] Merchant Scroll
2 [TE] Meditate
4 [FE] High Tide (2)
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 [BD] Brainstorm
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 2 [FUT] Pact of Negation
SB: 1 [MBS] Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 [TE] Meditate
SB: 1 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [UL] Snap
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [JGC] Flusterstorm

the first thing is the main deck BSZ i have it cause in playing the deck ive found myself wanting to have just a maindeck non wishable way to go deep. It may not be needed but im still testing it this week. the sideboard is pretty standard extra copies of everything and ways to up counters in certain matchups.
the 3 turnabouts may be to many but still not sure if its right or not.
anyways thoughts?

Looks pretty standard. The only thing I'd have you consider is playing Intuition as opposed to Meditate in the sideboard. I'll also be playing High Tide at the DC Open this Sunday.

[feline]

Hi guys, I Plan on taking the tide to the DC open this weekend and i would like some input on the list. I'll post it then offer some notes/ reason for the changes.
12 [A] Island (2)
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [LRW] Ponder
3 [US] Turnabout
1 [FUT] Pact of Negation
2 [CMD] Flusterstorm
1 [MBS] Blue Sun's Zenith
4 [US] Time Spiral
3 [M11] Preordain
4 [8E] Merchant Scroll
2 [TE] Meditate
4 [FE] High Tide (2)
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
4 Brainstorm
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 2 [FUT] Pact of Negation
SB: 1 [MBS] Blue Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 [TE] Meditate
SB: 1 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [UL] Snap
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [JGC] Flusterstorm

the first thing is the main deck BSZ i have it cause in playing the deck ive found myself wanting to have just a maindeck non wishable way to go deep. It may not be needed but im still testing it this week. the sideboard is pretty standard extra copies of everything and ways to up counters in certain matchups.
the 3 turnabouts may be to many but still not sure if its right or not.
anyways thoughts?

Blue Sun's Zenith You are not alone in that, most lists have put a Blue Sun's Zenith back into the main because of that, as well as the implications of more discard, potentially allowing an opponent to eat your Cunning Wishes from the deck with a Surgical Extraction or Extirpate, & with a main deck Blue Sun that is not a nail in the coffin.

Also the toolbox sideboard is also more popular right now, with a main deck Blue Sun, you don't have to dedicate 1 wish to a Blue Sun, all your wishes are potential bullets when needed for anything.

As far as running 3 Turnabout main, that is also the average, in fact it is very rare to see a decklist that doesn't run max Turnabout's (3 main 1 side of course) because they are an untap effect for your lands, an untap effect for your artifacts, a tap effect for the opposing counterspell deck, a tap effect that acts as a "Fog" against opposing aggro decks, etc etc etc.

The only thing I'd personally argue for is Intuition if you have any, at a minimum put 1 in the sideboard, it's the only direct way to get to Time Spiral when you can't just Blue Sun's Zenith yourself for a one sided Time Spiral or higher.

Also that makes [b]2 High Tide DC'ers this weekend at a minimum, maybe the record will be broken for High Tide's in the room in addition to the attendance record? ^.^

[neckfire]

Blue Sun's Zenith You are not alone in that, most lists have put a Blue Sun's Zenith back into the main because of that, as well as the implications of more discard, potentially allowing an opponent to eat your Cunning Wishes from the deck with a Surgical Extraction or Extirpate[/card], & with a main deck Blue Sun that is not a nail in the coffin.

Also the toolbox sideboard is also more popular right now, with a main deck Blue Sun, you don't have to dedicate 1 wish to a Blue Sun, all your wishes are potential bullets when needed for anything.

As far as running 3 Turnabout main, that is also the average, in fact it is very rare to see a decklist that doesn't run max Turnabout's (3 main 1 side of course) because they are an untap effect for your lands, an untap effect for your artifacts, a tap effect for the opposing counterspell deck, a tap effect that acts as a "Fog" against opposing aggro decks, etc etc etc.

The only thing I'd personally argue for is Intuition if you have any, at a minimum put 1 in the sideboard, it's the only direct way to get to [cards]Time Spiral when you can't just Blue Sun's Zenith yourself for a one sided Time Spiral or higher.

Also that makes 2 High Tide DC'ers this weekend at a minimum, maybe the record will be broken for High Tide's in the room in addition to the attendance record? ^.^

I like the idea of one intuition in the sideboard. What would you recommend cutting for it ?

[feline]

Well based on a few perspectives:
You could cut the Spell Pierce since you have Flusterstorm access, but arguing against, the option to use Spell Pierce against Planeswalkers, Artifacts & Enchantments might be something you want to keep as an option there.

You could cut the sideboard Meditate for the Intuition directly, since it only takes 12 mana to Wish > Intuition > Time Spiral, but arguing against, the option to Wish > Meditate > +1 cantrip if you're at 11 or less mana, is an option you'd be losing if you feel that's vital, even though I've been leaning toward cutting Meditate more and more, I still can't ignore that note myself.

You could cut the Echoing Truth since against most "multiples" you'd use it against, you can just Spiral & cast Wipe Away on it again, but you also lose the option to Echoing Truth an army of 1/1 goblin tokens in some match ups where you might actually want to do that as an example.

Basically, whatever you decide to remove in place of the Intuition, from the many perspectives, you'd be giving up something, you just have to find what is the weakest for how you play, what you're willing to give up, and chose that spot.

Based on that, you could argue 1 of the Wipe Aways since Counterbalance is on the "out" right now, thank you Abrupt Decay & while you also can't predict your match ups for Sunday, the likelyhood of playing against U/W control isn't as high as it was a few months ago, though it is still a deck, and a form of U/W control did win last weekend.

[Cptblacksparrow]

Thank you so much for the extensive information

Came right on time, playing hightide in dc this weekend :)

[feline]

That makes at least 3 people from the forums that are hitting DC with High Tide this weekened, I wanna see the deck own! More High Tide the better!, at least, for High Tide players. ^.^

[Falconer]

Based on that, you could argue 1 of the Wipe Aways since Counterbalance is on the "out" right now, thank you Abrupt Decay & while you also can't predict your match ups for Sunday, the likelyhood of playing against U/W control isn't as high as it was a few months ago, though it is still a deck, and a form of U/W control did win last weekend.

I would be careful with this statement. I wrote this in the TinFin Primer based on the last Grand Prix Trials for GP Strasbourg I played in every one seems to dust off his combo Deck to beat the fair Decks like Jund. In this situation playing Miracles is the logical step to be one step in front of the Metagame. Espescially after Miracles won the last two SCG Opens this opionen could only be reinforced during the next weeks. At least until so many play Miracles that it is time to bring back the Anti Miracle Decks.

Nice new Primer. I am also interested in this Deck but so far I only have one Candelabra, so I will have to wait a little bit more before I play this deck.

[Pdingo]

Hei Guys

I'm new in this Forum.
Well i'm from Switzerland and a serious High Tide Player:D
High Tide is for me the best Deck ever.
Now this is my List at the Moment:

4 Candelabra of Tawnos (For me 4 Candels are a obligation, i mean they are so good and all instant can be found)

4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
3 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
1 Meditate
1 Snap
1 Turnabout ( 1off because tutorable)
1 Wipe Away (We have a lot Uw/x Miracle controll in Switzerland)

4 Merchant Scroll
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Time Spiral

12 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta

Sideboard:

3 Defense Grid (Dont know but i like them more than Pact of Negation, for the putting on the field)
1 Blue sun's Zenith
1 Brainfreeze ( i use 1 in Sb when i cant make enough mana for the Zenith Kill but can make enough Storm.)
1 Flusterstorm
1 Intuition
1 Meditate
1 Mindbreak trap
1 Misdirection (Well a Metachoice, lot of Hymn to..and can change the decay/Bolt to a creature;) and 5th FoW)
1 Rebuild
1 Spell Pierce (a Counter more to Counter a Lili maybe Chalice)
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Turnabout
1 Wipe Away


Well i hope your enjoy my List:)
Now the Treath have a High Tide player more:P

Greets from Switzerland

Pdingo

[feline]

I have to ask in relation to the above list, very rarely do you see a list that doesn't max out on Turnabout, how long have you been doing that for & what drew you to come to the conclusion of running just 1 main 1 side instead of 3 main 1 side? I actually personally do something like that myself, but that is my own perception, it's rare to find someone else that does so I feel compelled to ask. Less Turnabout's does mean you are relying on the tutors more to get to it.

Aside from that, welcome & keep representing High Tide ^.^ as everyone here knows, the deck is just awesome to play!

[Pdingo]

I play 1 because you have 7 Tutor for Turnabout and with 4 Candels i think, you only need 1 maybe 2 Turnabouts i think. I mean you use it more to Tap controll Decks out at end of turn like RUG or Miracle maybe for MUD and tap a Sphere.
Its for each people different.
For me the List doing perform very well. :)

And sorry for my bad english-.-

[feline]

I understand that very well, I play the same way, with all the tutors I never have issues with getting to a Turnabout when needed, and I also max out on Candelabra's because of how I feel about running them in relation to the specifics as to, why to run them, I also understand that everyone has their own playstyles and such and everyone is different, so I try not to jump on people unless I feel it's absolutely necessary to say "hey, don't do that" etc. Basically I just asked because, I was not expecting to run into someone else that saw things the same in such a way that they too would run their list like that, your maindeck is actually 60 for 60 cards exactly what I ran in Seattle a few months ago. High Tide decks at their core are the same, so the same 50 something cards is expected, but exactly the same on what is a non traditional list, well I guess all I can say is thank you for sharing, I was pleasantly surprised.

[Pdingo]

yep that's cool.
Well i play the next GPT Trial for Strassbourg with High Tide:)
The Last Time i was 1-1-1 then i have to consede because i was to Sick.-.-

[TiMeWaLk]

@ Pdingo

We had a lot of discussions in the previous thread about what to maximize, Candles or Turnabout. The outcome was that Turnabout is really superior to Candles because:

- You can tap the lands of your opponent.
- You can pitch it to Force.
- You can Fog your opponent.
- You can untap your Candles when you have more than 1 on the field.
- It is not sensible to Needle and Stifle.

Playing only one, means you want to Scroll into it which is very slow against deck like RUG or Merfolk. Moreover, your scroll can be required for a High Tide. There are also some marginal cases where it is interesting to have a split between Turnabout and Candles (mainly against Surgical, which was one of the target of my opponent in the last tournament, so it happens). In my opinion, Candle plays a bit better around Daze and Pierce but that's the only advantage (plus the fact that they are awesome with Turnabouts and Capsize).

What are your arguments to run more Candles? I guess you want to maximize the chance of having a powerful Turnabout, but that's post Spiral so it matters really less. One strange idea I got about a 4 Candles list is to play Thirst for Knowledge and more Tops. I am curious how this would behave, but probably poorly.

@ Meditate

We had a debate about cutting or not the Meditates (or keep 1 or 2). Considering my last tournament plus additional tests against Stoneblade, I think they should be cut. The only time when I am happy to see them is post Spiral and very slow control decks. As I said, I don't even like them so much against Stoneblade. I think about few cards to replace the 2 I have main board:

- BSZ
- Preordain (I run 3 and a Top right now)
- Impulse
- Peer through Depths
- Intuition (not a big fan of having 1 main board because it felt clunky post side board)
- The 4th Flusterstorm
- Gitaxian Probe

I realized also that I really don't like spells costing 3 mana or more. Wishes are a necessary evil in this case.

@ Another question:

How do you feel about Pact of Negation main board? (I already run 3 Flusterstorm main board)

[Mackan]

@Pdingo
Read the last couple of pages (edit: in the other thread), there are a few arguments for both cards:)

@untaps... again:)
Im of the opinion that untap-effects are the worst cards in the deck (followed by cunning wish and perhaps FoW, allthough a necessary evil), so keeping those to a minimum is preferred. The only reason to add untap-effects is to add speed against "uninteractive", decks like burn/goblins/elves etc, at the cost of consistency. Untaps are NOT needed to goldfish turn4 because hight tide-spiral-spiral-bsz on yourself->wish->turnabout->bsz your opponent is good enough, with a few high tides here and there.
I can see myself playing only a singleton turnabout maindeck and 4 candelabras in my board if the meta is full of hymn to tourachs.

@PoN main
I don't like it... Atleast not now where discard and fast combo is more common than force of will/daze/reb/pierce. Counterspells are often used on your opponent's turn these days...
PoN is great against control and against those, slow, decks we have wishes to get that pact. I would max out on flusterstorms before I add my first PoN.

@Meditate
I still don't like it... But I can see it beeing atleast a one-of maindeck. You get a lot of options for a little cost playing one (since it's scrollable) but the second copy adds very little IMO.

[feline]

@ Pdingo

We had a lot of discussions in the previous thread about what to maximize, Candles or Turnabout. The outcome was that Turnabout is really superior to Candles because:

- You can tap the lands of your opponent.
- You can pitch it to Force.
- You can Fog your opponent.
- You can untap your Candles when you have more than 1 on the field.
- It is not sensible to Needle and Stifle.

Playing only one, means you want to Scroll into it which is very slow against deck like RUG or Merfolk. Moreover, your scroll can be required for a High Tide. There are also some marginal cases where it is interesting to have a split between Turnabout and Candles (mainly against Surgical, which was one of the target of my opponent in the last tournament, so it happens). In my opinion, Candle plays a bit better around Daze and Pierce but that's the only advantage (plus the fact that they are awesome with Turnabouts and Capsize).

What are your arguments to run more Candles? I guess you want to maximize the chance of having a powerful Turnabout, but that's post Spiral so it matters really less. One strange idea I got about a 4 Candles list is to play Thirst for Knowledge and more Tops. I am curious how this would behave, but probably poorly.

@ Meditate

We had a debate about cutting or not the Meditates (or keep 1 or 2). Considering my last tournament plus additional tests against Stoneblade, I think they should be cut. The only time when I am happy to see them is post Spiral and very slow control decks. As I said, I don't even like them so much against Stoneblade. I think about few cards to replace the 2 I have main board:

- BSZ
- Preordain (I run 3 and a Top right now)
- Impulse
- Peer through Depths
- Intuition (not a big fan of having 1 main board because it felt clunky post side board)
- The 4th Flusterstorm
- Gitaxian Probe

I realized also that I really don't like spells costing 3 mana or more. Wishes are a necessary evil in this case.

@ Another question:

How do you feel about Pact of Negation main board? (I already run 3 Flusterstorm main board)

I am big on 4/4/4 Brainstorm/Ponder/Preordain myself, however you basically have that if your 4th Preordain is a Top.

Gitaxian Probe is something that I thought about when that came up, but I always play picking up as many counter's along the way as I can anyway, so I just act like they have the worst case scenario hand possible, so whether I see it or not it's "meh" The advantage though is seeing their hand with nothing means "Oh I can go off right now instead of digging for more stuff." So I see that point of view, but personally I'd likely never run the Probe package.

4th Flusterstorm, I love that card, I toy with 3 main 1 side & just straight 4 main at times, though some people like having 1 as a wish target since it is a unique spell. But against most of the decks where Flusterstorm really shines, you will want it in hand so you can use it early, -vs- waiting till your turn 4 or later where you can wish for it & use it, since Flusterstorm is awesome against discard earlier than that, or against opposing, faster storm decks like Belcher / Ad Nauseam storm decks, etc. Even against a turn 1 or 2 Show & Tell, you want that Flusterstorm in hand.

For Meditate, I've actually cut it completely, though I still have a month before my next SCG Open, it's looking likely that if I even run Meditate at all it'll just be 1 total, but right now I am currently messing around with 1 main / 1 side Intuition, since the focus on Time Spiral works nicely.

Peer through depths, I admit I haven't seen that card since it was in type II.

As far as maindecking a Blue Sun's Zenith goes, I hate having dead cards pre combo, so I don't have anything maindeck that is currently, my maindeck pact of negation, is just another flusterstorm, there's no meditate, no BSZenith, or whatever else.

Impulse, I think I might have to look that up I don't actually remember specifically what that does.

I suppose in the end, I'd just vote for the 4th preordain or a maindeck intuition between the options listed, or maindecking the 4th flusterstorm, if you don't have any pacts main, if you have 3 flusters 1 pact main, then that's probably fine. But that's just me. Based on the average decklist and not my personal input, the evidence compels me to argue putting in a maindeck Blue Sun's Zenith. That does mean that against opposing extractions, if they do make you discard a wish and then extract successfully, you'll have access to a main deck blue sun's zenith, without having to bring in the one from the sideboard.

[TiMeWaLk]

I can see myself playing only a singleton turnabout main deck and 4 candelabras in my board if the meta is full of hymn to tourachs.

I don't understand why. Could you develop about this?


@Meditate
I still don't like it... But I can see it being at least a one-of main deck. You get a lot of options for a little cost playing one (since it's scrollable) but the second copy adds very little IMO.

I guess it's what pushed Di to keep one. However, I realized that I never Scroll for it or only when I am desperate. I'll probably cut one to start with.

@ feline

I don't want to run dead cards pre Spiral either. I may give a try to some of these exotics cards I named. If they don't do the job, I'll put the 4th Preordain and/or 1 Intuition.

@ Pact of Negation

I had several time the feeling that I would have preferred 1 more Flusterstorm because of all the discard and S&T.

[astormbrewing]

I am big on 4/4/4 Brainstorm/Ponder/Preordain myself, however you basically have that if your 4th Preordain is a Top.

Gitaxian Probe is something that I thought about when that came up, but I always play picking up as many counter's along the way as I can anyway, so I just act like they have the worst case scenario hand possible, so whether I see it or not it's "meh" The advantage though is seeing their hand with nothing means "Oh I can go off right now instead of digging for more stuff." So I see that point of view, but personally I'd likely never run the Probe package.

4th Flusterstorm, I love that card, I toy with 3 main 1 side & just straight 4 main at times, though some people like having 1 as a wish target since it is a unique spell. But against most of the decks where Flusterstorm really shines, you will want it in hand so you can use it early, -vs- waiting till your turn 4 or later where you can wish for it & use it, since Flusterstorm is awesome against discard earlier than that, or against opposing, faster storm decks like Belcher / Ad Nauseam storm decks, etc. Even against a turn 1 or 2 Show & Tell, you want that Flusterstorm in hand.

For Meditate, I've actually cut it completely, though I still have a month before my next SCG Open, it's looking likely that if I even run Meditate at all it'll just be 1 total, but right now I am currently messing around with 1 main / 1 side Intuition, since the focus on Time Spiral works nicely.

Peer through depths, I admit I haven't seen that card since it was in type II.

As far as maindecking a Blue Sun's Zenith goes, I hate having dead cards pre combo, so I don't have anything maindeck that is currently, my maindeck pact of negation, is just another flusterstorm, there's no meditate, no BSZenith, or whatever else.

Impulse, I think I might have to look that up I don't actually remember specifically what that does.

I suppose in the end, I'd just vote for the 4th preordain or a maindeck intuition between the options listed, or maindecking the 4th flusterstorm, if you don't have any pacts main, if you have 3 flusters 1 pact main, then that's probably fine. But that's just me. Based on the average decklist and not my personal input, the evidence compels me to argue putting in a maindeck Blue Sun's Zenith. That does mean that against opposing extractions, if they do make you discard a wish and then extract successfully, you'll have access to a main deck blue sun's zenith, without having to bring in the one from the sideboard.

I really hope I do well and have good things to say since we're on the same page about a lot. I'm running 0 Meditate, 1 Intuition main and 1 side, and 4 Flusterstorm main.

[feline]

Yea the only thing I'm on the fence about is the last 2 weekends have been 1st place U/W control something, so I don't know if I want access to a wipe away main again, I did at one point but then squeezed out the maindeck bounce, but if U/W is doing good enough it could be ran into, I'm always brainstorming and I constantly second guess everything, my brain never gives me a break!

Either way, good luck again down, or up there, depending on whether you're driving north or south ha ha! As long as you've done your homework and know the huge diversity of match ups that is legacy, you should walk out with a winning record at a minimum, unless for some reason you just get a chain of bad match ups and some bad luck which would suck.

The list currently is basically the same as what I pushed in Seattle, except for -1 maindeck Meditate, +1 maindeck Intuition, and the sideboard is -1 Pact of Negation, +1 Ravenous Trap, since most match ups I was only bringing in 2 of the pact's and the flusterstorm, so 2 were left in the sideboard, and I had a game in Vegas where even wish>extraction against ANT targeting Infernal tutor in response to Past in Flames, still wasnt enough because they had a bunch of ponders in the graveyard, so I was more sold on Ravenous Trap after that, not to mention it's implications against other decks that utilize the graveyard even more.

[Rune]

You'd probably rather want to maindeck Repeal than Wipeaway since it's very good with Candles and much better if you aren't against Counterbalance ('sup, flipped Delver?). Gaddock Teeg seems to have left us, so there's also that.

[feline]

Well that's the thing, I'd only do the maindeck Wipe Away if I still suspect opposing Counterbalance in a month here. Basically if I switched it over to Repeal I'd at that point probably just cut it completely, I just hate the counterbalance match up & want that edge for it from game 1.

Also yes, when I did have Repeals and used them for X = 0 against a flipped delver, that was just awesome, sometimes it was like a cantripping Time Walk against RUG that only got better if it didn't flip for a few turns coming back down.

[TiMeWaLk]

I don't think you want to make your main board weaker for only 1 match up. You still have your Forces and your Wishes for game 1. On top of this, they may not hit their counterbalance.

[feline]

I don't think you want to make your main board weaker for only 1 match up. You still have your Forces and your Wishes for game 1. On top of this, they may not hit their counterbalance.

You are totally right that if you're making your main board weaker just for 1 match up, that's not something most would recommend, that's how much I hate the Counterbalance match up, my feelings get in the way.

[Zombie]

If it's a singleton Wipe Away, I'd probably put it in. Being completely comfortable with your deck counts for a lot.

[BlackFlameAshura]

Heya, also new to the forums here though I've lurked for awhile.

I built High Tide last summer to play at SCG Buffalo and didn't quite do too well as I was still trying to work on the deck and that I had net decked from an older build (one of Lorenzo Fedeli's lists (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5909&iddeck=42834)) and still don't feel entirely confident. I've done decent during a few events closer to home (I actually live in Tampa but was visiting family for a wedding in NY the week after the Open) but still am not confident enough in ability to play it and have been far more enjoying my GWb Maverick build, but would love to try working on my build some more and get used to it so I can play High Tide more often as I really love playing it.

Here's my current list I've been playing around with. I only have the one Candelabra so far:

4x Brainstorm
2x Cunning Wish
3x Flusterstorm
3x Force of Will
4x High Tide
1x Intuition
2x Meditate
3x Turnabout

1x Candelabra of Tawnos

2x Cloud of Faeries

4x Merchant Scroll
3x Ponder
4x Preordain
4x Time Spiral

1x Trade Routes
1x Mind Over Matter

1x Breeding Pool
3x Misty Rainforest
14x Island

///Sideboard:

1x Blue Sun's Zenith
1x Brain Freeze
1x Echoing Truth
1x Hibernation
1x Krosan Grip
1x Meditate
3x Pact of Negation
1x Rebuild
1x Slaughter Pact
2x Snap
1x Turnabout
1x Wipe Away


Reading through here the first thing I'm probably going to do is move the Intuition to the side (though I really like it mainboard since it makes tutoring Time Spiral really easy when I need it) and put a BSZ into the main in addition to the one in the side. I don't own a Tropical Island and Breeding Pool works for when I need it. It opens me up to the possibility of being Wastelanded, sure, but as a one-of that in most games I won't grab, it's usually fine. I don't grab the Grip for much anyways, usually for problem cards like Ethersworn Canonist from what I've played so far but Leylines and Chalices are also tough to deal with. I also need more fetches and definitely more Candelabras once my money situation loosens up a little bit, but for the time being I'm working with what I've got. I also understand Mind Over Matter is considered a bit "win more" but since I picked it up and have been testing I find it's been making my games go faster which is good for me and my opponents, especially as a relatively new High Tide player (from a competitive standpoint). The less my opponent looks like they want to punch me in the face, the better I'll feel.

[Pdingo]

Hei Timewalk

Well first to the Candels and turnabout.
Ok yes with turnabout you can tap the lands of the oppenent, thats the best part i think.
But my arguments to candels are:
-you can put them down a turn before(Ok yes its sensible to stifle)and its a pernament and its likes felines argument a card less in the deck.
-you have faster more mana than with turnabout for the zenith kill.
-and this argument is very important i think, i mean you have to go off very fast with 4 islands like Decks like Jund or RUG when the clock are fast.then you have high tide tap all (6six mana) then candel(5 mana) then untap (4mana) and 1 mana in pool for a flusterstorm and i think thats very important and with turnabout you dont have that.

to meditate

i would never cutt a card this, i mean this can save games from time to time and its so good against discard. 1 off for me are important in main and sideboard because its tutorable.

to pact of negation

I dont like it main because i wont have a death card in hand ok when you draw it before you can combo its ok but i mean you can have 1 Pact in the Sb and search it.
I like 3 flusterstorm main more they are good against discard etc. From time to time i play a pact in the sb for a eot wish to have a counter more before comboing.


Greets Dingo

[Zalren]

Is there any room for Retraced Image? I thought that High Tide decks played that card to put Islands into play.

[BlackFlameAshura]

Is there any room for Retraced Image? I thought that High Tide decks played that card to put Islands into play.

I'm not sure I'd want to run Retraced Image myself, though I'm sure others might have a different opinion. Okay, it gets you going a turn earlier maybe, but a lot of times with how few lands are in your deck anyways, you're not even going to want to see it. I'd rather have more draw power or library manipulation that gets me closer to lands or otherwise untaps my lands. Putting another land down is okay early on like that but mid-combo especially I'd rather be doing something else. Turnabouts, Cloud of Faeries, and Candelabra are all just more effective (Cloud especially if you have Snap).

Mind Over Matter might be equally "win more" but once you drop it on the board, it stays there. I don't really know how much I might enjoy seeing a Retraced Image after a Time Spiral, especially if I draw a fetch and no islands, as you've now got a card in hand that's deader than a door nail. I'd like Trade Routes more since, even though it doesn't necessarily generate more mana, it still not only thins my deck but sifts through it, getting me closer to my combo pieces. I realize neither of these options that I run are exactly popular but I think they're generally more effective than Retraced Image. The card might've been good in the deck's early days but I think it just doesn't quite work as well as others do.

[TiMeWaLk]

@ BlackFlameAshura

I played Cloud of Faeries before having 2 Candles. From what I tested, 3 Turnabout and 2 Cloud of Faeries were enough. I guess you can do -1 Cloud of Faeries on your current list.

For the rest of the main deck:

- With only 2 Wishes, I would be scared to run 0 win condition main board. How do you feel about this?
- MoM and Trade Routes are dead cards pre Spiral. The deck does not need them.
- If you can, increase the number of fetches to make your Brainstorm and Ponder better.

For the side board:

- I really dislike the Meditate in the side board. Something must have gone horribly wrong if you have to Wish for Meditate (especially that you run only 2).
- Krosan Grip is not enough to justify weakening your mana base. It is far from a necessary card, which has an impact on a limited part of the metagame. On the other end, your mana base will be weakened against all the decks running wasteland (plus the fact that you don't own tropical). I let you do the maths. If you are afraid of counterbalance, run 1 more Wipe Away.
- You have an incredible amount of bounce for a metagame where few hate bears are left.
- What is Hibernation for?


@ Pdingo

About Turnabout/Candles:

- A card outside of the deck is not always such a good news.
- I can kill with BSZ all the time with 2 Candles and 3 Turnabout main board. Killing "faster" is a bad argument.
- If you have 4 island, the exemple you give is quite bad for Candle. It costs 5 mana to untap with Candle and 4 for Turnabout.

The only thing I can see about Candles is that they combo very well with Turnabout and make your life easy post Spiral. However, I don't care about esasy :laugh:


@ Retraced Image

The card does card disadvantage and it is pointless to speed up the deck right now. The best thing you can do is to pitch it to Fow (joke). I would run Cloud of Faeries before even considering this card.

[Pdingo]

@ timewalk
- i dont mean you can faster comboing, i mean you make faster MORE mana than with turnabout for spells like Blue sun's zenith target yourself and draw a lot card. This i mean with faster more mana.
yes i mean 2 candel and 3 turnabout are easy enough for a blue suns zenith kill but i think more candel are better:P
and that comes to argument number two.
-Yes ok when candel resolve its a mana more but when it dont resolve you have more mana to play other spells.
-You can put it IN TO PLAY (Still a Pernament more, not to fizzle) a turn before(When you not play against a decay Deck). When you have more Turnabout in Deck you fizzle more than with more candels.
-And Turnabouts eats a lot more counter than a candel, REBs etc... and thats a other argument for me to play 4 candels.

ok i like the 3/3 split to but at the time now 4 candels for me are to good :DD

to meditate

I cut now for the next gpt the main meditate for a intiuition main. Now i have a intuition main and 1 sb. Maybe its make really more than meditate like deck against jund.
And yes how felines says its better to find Time spiral.

[BlackFlameAshura]

@ BlackFlameAshura

I played Cloud of Faeries before having 2 Candles. From what I tested, 3 Turnabout and 2 Cloud of Faeries were enough. I guess you can do -1 Cloud of Faeries on your current list.

For the rest of the main deck:

- With only 2 Wishes, I would be scared to run 0 win condition main board. How do you feel about this?
- MoM and Trade Routes are dead cards pre Spiral. The deck does not need them.
- If you can, increase the number of fetches to make your Brainstorm and Ponder better.

For the side board:

- I really dislike the Meditate in the side board. Something must have gone horribly wrong if you have to Wish for Meditate (especially that you run only 2).
- Krosan Grip is not enough to justify weakening your mana base. It is far from a necessary card, which has an impact on a limited part of the metagame. On the other end, your mana base will be weakened against all the decks running wasteland (plus the fact that you don't own tropical). I let you do the maths. If you are afraid of counterbalance, run 1 more Wipe Away.
- You have an incredible amount of bounce for a metagame where few hate bears are left.
- What is Hibernation for?

This is why I'm posting here, lol. Keep in mind I net decked a lot of this and am still trying to find some stable footing at the tournament level. First off, I'm well aware I need more fetches, it's just not in my budget for the time being and so I'm having some trouble trying to trade around for them but every so often I've gotten lucky. I've been performing real well with my Maverick build the last few weeks I've played it so if it keeps up I'll probably manage to get enough store credit to grab some Scalding Tarns and eventually Deltas or Strands but it'll be a little bit yet. I personally like the Routes and MOM but I agree they're not exactly necessary.

I might go -1 Cloud, remove those two, move the Meditate in SB over to main, and add another BSZ and Wish to the main. As for how I feel about having 0 win cons main I have an awful tendency to just go in and grab the Brain Freeze and mill for game. Lately I've gone for the BSZ more often so I do think it might be best slipping that back in main especially since it does a lot of what Trade Routes also has been doing for me: allowing me to draw a ton and sift through my deck.

With regards to the SB, I agree on Krosan Grip, it's just what I had and I'm not entirely sure what else to slip in at this point. Probably another Wipe Away like you said. That also applies to most of the rest of my board but some of it has specific applications. Snaps were mostly for the Cloud of Faeries but also for Canonists and the like, Rebuild was for Affinity matchups (the list I ND'd actually ran Hurkyl's Recall as well but I think Rebuild is better because you can cycle it if all else fails), Echoing Truth is for Empty the Warrens, and Hibernation is usually for Combo Elves, all to combat them from killing me too quick. Slaughter Pact is for Iona which pops up in some of the decks in my meta and completely crushes my deck if I can't grab an answer. Slaughter Pact is effective here since I can still cast it even if my opponent calls blue on Iona.

[feline]

The biggest thing I think most would compel to push, would be to make all the lands fetches & basic Islands, and turn the Krosan Grip into a Wipe away since it basically does the same thing, gets that permanent off the battlefield with split second. ^.^ Also if you're newer with the deck then awesome! I love seeing people pick up this deck and deciding "ok I'm going to play this, thing, that is a combo legacy deck." Maybe I'm just weird, crazy or even mean, but I just love seeing this deck in action!

[BlackFlameAshura]

The biggest thing I think most would compel to push, would be to make all the lands fetches & basic Islands, and turn the Krosan Grip into a Wipe away since it basically does the same thing, gets that permanent off the battlefield with split second. ^.^ Also if you're newer with the deck then awesome! I love seeing people pick up this deck and deciding "ok I'm going to play this, thing, that is a combo legacy deck." Maybe I'm just weird, crazy or even mean, but I just love seeing this deck in action!

That's exactly how I felt when I first saw it. I bought the Burn precon on MTGO soon after I got into the format with Affinity last March and got absolutely wrecked by High Tide and thought it was an awesome deck to play so I at least had an idea of how to build it. Next thing you know I had almost everything in the deck except the Forces which I got from my uncle when I bought his collection before SCG Buffalo and played it at the Legacy Challenge day 1 and in the Open day 2. I went 2-2 in the Challenge and 0-3 in the Open. I've played it a couple other times since but never did too well. It's changed a good amount since last time since I was able to catch some Legacy sales at my LGS and bought a bunch of cheap staples for the deck. I'll probably try it again in a couple weeks after I try and do well with Maverick so I can work on getting some more stuff for this deck (like fetches) but the help is definitely most appreciated!

P.S. Thanks for sharing the link to the primer on Reddit, Feline!

[feline]

Yea, when I linked that in the middle of the night, there was like "50+ guests" viewing for a few hours afterward every time I got on and did random stuff in the forums and decided to check the High Tide thread, I try to share the information everywhere with relevant stuff, especially the metagame analysis that I do for the format which I'll be updating again sometime in the next few weeks since it's about a month old now and enough Open's have happened to add a handful of new decklists.

[Megadeus]

High Tide has got to be one of the better decks in the format if not the best combo deck. Sure SNT is good, but it is somewhat weak vs discard and sometimes the hands are horribly awkward. Meanwhile High Tide plays 12 Cantrips and has a billion tutors for redundancy... If I didn't feel bad for my opponents while I played I would certainly play this deck. And for anyone interested in a powerful combo deck play this. I played a candleless list (havent heard that before have you? :P) with the untap Faeries in their place and it was for the most part fine. I did well with it in testing and it was somewhat enjoyable to play.

[entreri_fans]

yeah, I myself also play 2 Cloud of Faeries before I have received my Candelabra. Faeries can provide you with extra mana, although much less than Candelabra.

"cycling" of Cloud of Faeries is useful, when you are close to fizzle(need that "one more" card to continue).

Spiral Tide without Candelabra is not a big issue, at least in my opinion. Candelabra does increased our chance to win faster(maybe turn 3), but as Spiral Tide is a late-game combo, we can just try to control the situation and try to stop them before we go off.

In my opinion, Candelabra makes the deck more explosive. but without them, the deck is still there.

[Mackan]

I don't understand why. Could you develop about this?

If the goal is to resolve Time Spiral and we are not under significant pressure a simple land-drop could replace an untap-effect. This is atleast a turn slower but makes it easier to "try again" later. If any attempt to go off on the back of a turnabout is countered you have to start over again, with an additional card. If the failed attempt was made without candelabra/turnabout you only need one or two cards to try again (Spiral or high tide+spiral or lands+spiral). Something that happens alot vs blue+black decks. Candelabra is better than turnabout in this regard since it's still around (hopefully) but unless your second attempt is with a High tide the candelabras do NOT help you go off. So against heavy discard I make sure not to miss any landdrops and unless they have liliana or Bob going there is no reason to push for a quick kill. Even if you have a late attempt with 5 Islands+Turnabout+spiral you loose one more card compared to 6 lands + spiral if it fails. Remember; the deck can win with one card and 6 islands.

Also, focusing on lands helps vs targeted discard. Hymn was a bad example as it can also hit lands. Against discard in general I rather have Islands than turnabout/candelabra. Im not saying you should sideboard additional Islands it's just that I think the untap-effects are the weakest card post-board against heavy discard (plus counters) and something has to go for the cards we want to side in.

And;
1) With the power of brainstorm you can float business (i.e Time Spiral) on top of your library and having only a land (preferably your sixth) in hand the turn before you go off, negating any duress (but not hymn/liliana).
2) You can float brainstorm on top with only lands in hand to win with tide+spiral.

So, if the meta calls for it I rather start of with a slooow, but stable turn 4-5 deck (with very few untap-effects) and become a turn 3-4 deck post-board versus goblins (siding candelabras).
I don't think we need more untap-effects post-spiral than time spiral itself.

[flrn]

You know what's also great against slow blue/black decks? Playing at least 3 Meditate in your 75.

[TiMeWaLk]

@ Mackan

I understand what you say but I don't get why you would like 4 Candles & 1 Turnabout in certain cases. If you want to decrease your number of untap effects, I'd go to 2 Candles 3 Turnabout. If you want to decrease even more, 1 Candle & 3 Turnabout still works.

@ Pdingo

- Candles makes less mana than Turnabout. The only time they do is with 3 lands in play ( and Candle in play) or when you have 2 Candles and you can cast a Turnabout (that is, when you already won).


-Yes ok when candel resolve its a mana more but when it dont resolve you have more mana to play other spells.

- Agreed.


-You can put it IN TO PLAY (Still a Pernament more, not to fizzle) a turn before(When you not play against a decay Deck). When you have more Turnabout in Deck you fizzle more than with more candels.

- You hardly change the probability of fizzle (1 card out of 50, you have to imagine you can also draw this untap effect instead of a land...). Not to mention that from time to time you may want the untap to be shuffled in (tapped Candle for example which could have been Turnabout). You will only know if you lack mana after opening your new 7. All in all, that's probably few tenth percent variations...


-And Turnabouts eats a lot more counter than a candel, REBs etc... and thats a other argument for me to play 4 candels.

- Your opponent will spend his counters on Scroll, HT, Spiral... This is a corner case.

Let's agree to disagree :laugh:


@ flrn

How does Meditate works against Jund for you? Do you consider this match up as a "slow" black deck?

[Pdingo]

@Timewalk

I know that make turnabout more mana when its alone but yes when you have more candels its make more.

-To the fizzling and pernaments. I mean before i have the candels i played candless Tide and dont know but i fizzle more than with candels.^^
-And i mean a RUG player we have to tap out with turnabout a lot of games.(When he have use the SB) And he have to counter a Turnabout like this.


@flrn

to meditate

I have to say that 3 meditate are not really good now, and against jund(not a easy Match up) you cant cast a meditate i think.

[esthoril]

-And Turnabouts eats a lot more counter than a candel, REBs etc... and thats a other argument for me to play 4 candels.
Wait.. WUT?! Normally I wouldn't go into the candlelabra-turnabout discussion again, but this kinda makes me cry.
If your opponent keeps his ReB for turnabout, you should win anyway because your opponent is a very very bad player. They have a gazillion better blue targets for it, not in the least high tide. But with turnabout, you at least have the option the EOT tap his land, so he can never ever use his ReB to stop your high tide. If you hold candelabra.. you just lost the game to his ReB.. oh and on top of that, you're dead to his stifle as well.
And you lose to vial on 2 against D&T if you can't EOT tap it with turnabout, while having a useless candelabra in hand.
And you lose to trinisphere.
And you lose to ...
Turnabout helps you out in a lot of random situations where candelabra is stuck in your hand. People play candelabra because they want 4+ untap, after they have maxed out on turnabouts! (The version feline played with only 1 turnabout main had 2 bounce cards main to solve the problems an EOT turnabout sometimes could solve as well.)

Also the more mana faster argument.. that sounds a lot like win-more to me. I'd much rather need 5 minutes extra to win, if that means having a better toolbox to combat problems.

[Pdingo]

@esthoril

Lol, do you really know what i mean ?
situation:

(RUG)2-4 Tropical/volcanics in play from oppenent: i say still g2 maybe g1.
I play eot turnabout to him he have to counter it.
because:
-He have a lot more REBs, spell pierce,stifle and flusterstorm maybe in hand.
-When he do not i can be sure that he have only FoWs and Daze's.
-When he do counter it i be more unsure to going off.
-Why should he kp his REB in hand when he cant play it when i tap all his lands? lol?!

and when you look at my list i play 2 bounce spell to main;) 1 turnabout only but we have enough tutors. You can SEARCH it for any problems like the Trinisphere etc.

I like 4/1 with Bounce etc split and 3/3 split are very good bouth together are so good.

[esthoril]

Why should he kp his REB in hand when he cant play it when i tap all his lands? lol?!
Lol did you read my post? :) I was giving an example of just how bad candelabra is compared to turnabout in the same spot. You are very likely not(!) tapping his land EOT, as you have useless bounce or useless candelabra in your hand.. (while on top of that, the need to play around stifle..) That is what I was pointing out! With turnabout you'll at least have the option to tap his land EOT, while you are very unlikely to have that option. Or you need to waste a scroll on it, where we can use the scroll for another counter. You'll have a much harder time beating RUG with your build.
Also in the current meta, there is hardly any counterbalance, and maverick is completely absent. So what exactly are you looking to bounce? RUG is still the deck that puts up the best results of all and I like to play a maindeck that has the best chance to beat it. 4 candelabra + bounce isn't doing that.

[Pdingo]

Well i like the 4/1 split and yes you can search the turnabout and it was never a problem to do tap out like that.
I make this play a lot and have no problem. And a Eot turnabout(was search with scroll) can make more than search a counter with scroll. I mean it can be possible eat a counter or tap all lands and he can't use his REB!
The other slot i use it for wipe away! Make a lot to right now in the Meta in Switzerland.
And i thinkt the meta is a little diffrent from Switzerland to the big USA.^^

[Pdingo]

Well this is my little descriptiont the GPT for Strassbourg in Switzerland (Lausanne).

It was not my best day my Decklist was the same like i posted in this Treath only Main -1 Meditate + intuition and in SB -1 Spell Pierce + Pact of negation. Don't Know the Meta in Lausanne. A lot RUG Delver what me surprised.
We was only 19 people and 5 round+ top 8.

First Game against Fish Rogue Deck..-.-

G1: He doesn't play legacy serious and play swamp and inqui of Kozilek and discard my High Tide
Then i land go (Still Flusterstorm in hand, Maybe he plays more discard.^^)
But then he plays isolated Chapeled. (Thinking ehm ok lol..fish)
Then i play island and a cantrip he in respons Extripate-.- LOL¨? GG
G2: Have a nice Hand and he play only a discard and discard my high Tide again and exile it.(Have 2 island in play)
ok no problem have one in SB:)
He have not really a clock then he play a kira, great glass Spinner?lol?
ok i play meditate draw 4 cards find no Spiral...
next turn in eot i plays wish into high Tide and hope for next turn to find a spiral.
Play a lot cantrips and brainstorm with fetch..Dont find anything..
he play a Snapcaster at eot and have now a real clock^^
ok then he attacked my make nothing and play eot Blue sun's zenith for 4 and find nothing only cantrips.counter etc..
I play Cantrip again find nothing and he attacked my again and then cames the time to going off with High Tide a lot untap effects and BS and cantrips..Nothing-.- Shit happens!
0-1-0

Match 2 against Junk Lands.
G1 he have not really much and i going off.
G2 He plays Confis and hate like Chalice(i counter that) and i have to long find all again lol and he can play with the time and has 3 rishadan port in play + a Stony silence that i can not bounce because i try to going off with
tide in upkeep in rsp to his ports, but have only 1 tide in hand and that not enough mana for Wype away+untap enough lands.
G3 I can counce and counter all and i can go off.(only a stony silence on the field but thats not enough)

1-1-0

Match 3 against Esper Stoneblade

G1 He make not much and i go off:)
G2 I kpt a 1 land hand with 2 cantrips 2counter + brainstorm and Tide.(Maybe i should take a mulligan, but was on the Draw), Find no land and he plays to much hate like Meddling Mage.
G3 Have a good Hand and play land go, he make not much 3 turns only Top and play a eot clique and i have to FoW(still open island) because he can put my Tide or Spiral bottom and haven't a BS..
Then he plays a Meddling Mage. Ok no problem i have a wipe away on hand. Have now in my Turns counter 1 + grid in hand and have enough lands to going off next turn. But he play's in he's turn
a Cannonist and a Counterbalance. To much and GG.

1-2-0

Next Game(4) against GW Maverick

G1: Not much only a thalia and i counter it and can go off 2 turns later.
G2: Don't find enough lands. lol and i shuffle good xD
G3: he plays only a Gaddock Teeg and then he make not much only a Knight a turn later and i bounce Teeg and going off:)

2-2-0

Now i hope for Top 8 maybe..
Match 5 against RUG

Was a Friend and i knows what he does play.
G1: He plays no clock and only Ponder, BS etc.Then i counter a lot things off me and plays a Treshhold Mongo. And with 2 Bolts, Mongo, Snapi+Bolt(3) and Fetch Dmg he make my down to 2.
But then i can go off and winn the Game.
G2: play a daze proof Defense Grid and makes the Game:)

3-2-0

Now Top 8 or not and like the badest game ever in Round 1 i was only 9th:(
But 3-2 ok not really good but hope for the next Time.

Well i hope your enjoy

Greets Dingo

[feline]

Thank you for sharing the tournament report ^.^

[feline]

Good god, 9 of the top 16 at DC is Esperblade or Countertop, but especially Countertop, do your job Abrupt Decay that deck needs to go away!

[BlackFlameAshura]

Good god, 9 of the top 16 at DC is Esperblade or Countertop, but especially Countertop, do your job Abrupt Decay that deck needs to go away!

Seriously, when I'm playing High Tide, Countertop/Miracles just makes me hate my life D:

[esthoril]

Good god, 9 of the top 16 at DC is Esperblade or Countertop, but especially Countertop, do your job Abrupt Decay that deck needs to go away!
+1 :)

Need to decide what combodeck to play in Strasbourg soon. I don't want counter-top in the meta :)

[TiMeWaLk]

In my case, I will play High Tide anyway. Even if the metagame is changing, there are so many decks in Legacy that you cannot predict what will be in front of you. Knowing this, I prefer to play a deck I start to know very well instead of a new one that I will have no time to play efficiently, including all the side boards subtleties etc... Another argument in favor of pushing High Tide is that people don't play correctly against this deck because it's not part of the "decks to beat". Finally, we can beat Counter Top. It's not easy, but we can.

I have been testing the deck with 0 Meditate. I must say that I miss my Meditates post Spiral but I am glad to see 1 Preordain sitting in my opening hand instead of a 3 CCM card... I just hope that 0 Meditate does not affect too much the chance of fizzle.

[Mackan]

@untaps
The reason I would prefer candelabras over turnabouts in that scenario would be speed. Candelabras saving a mana played a turn before could be important. It's also a card in play post-spiral (if fizzle factor is the concern and not the opponent this is relevant). If you try to go off asap and do that turn3 there is allready one more land that could be drawn from Time Spiral compared to if you went off turn4 with 4 lands in play. Marginal, but a fact:) I want to minimize my poor Spirals.

@fizzle
If you are concerned about fizzling I can really recommend brain freeze as a much easier route to victory (card-wise). The toughest / most common matchup I think is deathrite+discard+counters.dec and brain freeze works perfectly fine (no emrakul/progenitus shuffle and no direct damage in their upkeep). I've had 3 high tides / merchant scroll / ponder extirpated in a game where I sided all my candelabras out. And i still won after the third spiral and a million cantrips -> brain freeze. Meditate is awesome against discard and if you have tide+untap+card draw you are good to go... the BF kill requires less mana (= less cards) so it's easier to pull off.

[Seraph2k]

In my case, I will play High Tide anyway. Even if the metagame is changing, there are so many decks in Legacy that you cannot predict what will be in front of you. Knowing this, I prefer to play a deck I start to know very well instead of a new one that I will have no time to play efficiently, including all the side boards subtleties etc... Another argument in favor of pushing High Tide is that people don't play correctly against this deck because it's not part of the "decks to beat". Finally, we can beat Counter Top. It's not easy, but we can.
I have been testing the deck with 0 Meditate. I must say that I miss my Meditates post Spiral but I am glad to see 1 Preordain sitting in my opening hand instead of a 3 CCM card... I just hope that 0 Meditate does not affect too much the chance of fizzle.

Played a tournament yesterday with 3 MD Meditate. Against decks with no active clock or some discard an eot meditate is so amazing and cleared the way or gave me the cards I needed to go off.

During the Tournament I realized that Intuition in my SB was wrong. In a non-candelabra list it is so important in the MD... Lost two rounds and the 1-2 vs Belcher was so stupid caude I lost to the tokens! First tournament without Echoing truth in my SB! :(

[esthoril]

During the Tournament I realized that Intuition in my SB was wrong. In a non-candelabra list it is so important in the MD...
You do know it's possible to play one in the maindeck AND one in the sideboard? Having one in the sideboad is unrelated to not having one in your maindeck so not sure why you think having one in sideboard is wrong.. I do agree that 3 meditate 0 intuition main is (a lot imho) worse than 2 meditate 1 intuition.

How did you lose to Belcher? I can see us losing game 1 if we don't know what we are facing + they won the dieroll + they have a turn 1 kill + we don't have a force.. but apart from that? And even then we should still win game 2 and 3 easily.

[feline]

SCG Seattle, 1 month, anyone here going? Don't forget to put the time in off work now so you get Sunday off!

[BlackFlameAshura]

So I'm looking into starting to work on a MTGO version of the deck and the one thing really holding me back is the Force of Wills. I'd want to pick them up somewhere down the line but I'm not really looking to be dropping another $210 on a set of 3 right this moment if I can help it (kind of on a tight budget). What would you run in it's place in the main? I'd be running some Flusterstorms already with Pacts in the side, as per my prior posted list, but this is the one thing that's really putting me in a tough spot.

[Larzdk]

So I'm looking into starting to work on a MTGO version of the deck and the one thing really holding me back is the Force of Wills. I'd want to pick them up somewhere down the line but I'm not really looking to be dropping another $210 on a set of 3 right this moment if I can help it (kind of on a tight budget). What would you run in it's place in the main? I'd be running some Flusterstorms already with Pacts in the side, as per my prior posted list, but this is the one thing that's really putting me in a tough spot.

There is no great replacement, as force really helps in all phases of the gameplan (setting up, drawing out the game to get more islands, protecting the spirals). If I really had to go Forceless, Spell Pierce is probably what'll hurt the least. It's helpful in the first and third phase, but it doesn't counter Ethersworn, so you should be even more prepared than usual to face hate-cards that you would usually try to force.

[BlackFlameAshura]

There is no great replacement, as force really helps in all phases of the gameplan (setting up, drawing out the game to get more islands, protecting the spirals). If I really had to go Forceless, Spell Pierce is probably what'll hurt the least. It's helpful in the first and third phase, but it doesn't counter Ethersworn, so you should be even more prepared than usual to face hate-cards that you would usually try to force.

Yeah I realize nothing really replaces Force but Spell Pierce could probably do the job initially, at least. Canonists have never really been a problem for me, they just slow me down a little bit if they hit the field.

[esthoril]

So I'm looking into starting to work on a MTGO version of the deck and the one thing really holding me back is the Force of Wills. I'd want to pick them up somewhere down the line but I'm not really looking to be dropping another $210 on a set of 3 right this moment if I can help it (kind of on a tight budget). What would you run in it's place in the main? I'd be running some Flusterstorms already with Pacts in the side, as per my prior posted list, but this is the one thing that's really putting me in a tough spot.
Probaly best to simply try out a couple configurations.
First thing I would try is going up to 3 pact of negations main and 1 snap.
Snap also works well with cloud of faeries (if you play a couple of them instead of candle).

[Seraph2k]

How did you lose to Belcher? I can see us losing game 1 if we don't know what we are facing + they won the dieroll + they have a turn 1 kill + we don't have a force.. but apart from that? And even then we should still win game 2 and 3 easily.

Kept a hand with 3 cantrips, 2 flusters and 2 forces. Feared the mulligan and hoped for one land while he was on the play. Indeed I was able to disrupt him twice, but found in 7 turns no land. I know it was a high risk, but I feared a bad mulligan.
Maybe I will buy another intuition for my SB, which will replace the envelop.

[BlackFlameAshura]

Probaly best to simply try out a couple configurations.
First thing I would try is going up to 3 pact of negations main and 1 snap.
Snap also works well with cloud of faeries (if you play a couple of them instead of candle).

Well I was going to run Candels instead of Cloud of Faeries since Candels on MTGO are only $10. I'd at least run 3 but I'd probably get a set for sure. Still, Pacts and Spell Pierces sound like the way to go initially. What's the general thought on Daze? I'm sure it's not great since you don't exactly want to be bouncing your few lands you've got to work with but might not be too bad, or would just a simple Counterspell or two be better at that point?

[esthoril]

Well I was going to run Candels instead of Cloud of Faeries since Candels on MTGO are only $10. I'd at least run 3 but I'd probably get a set for sure. Still, Pacts and Spell Pierces sound like the way to go initially. What's the general thought on Daze? I'm sure it's not great since you don't exactly want to be bouncing your few lands you've got to work with but might not be too bad, or would just a simple Counterspell or two be better at that point?
Daze is beyond awful. It completly works against our gameplan. We want to make landdrops, not the opposite :)
Spell pierce, pact, regular counterspell, remand should work ok. Even playing goblin lackey in your high tide list would be better than daze as it at least doesn't work against you.

[feline]

Please don't run Daze in High Tide, that is all. ^.^ Forgive me if that comes off as harsh.

[BlackFlameAshura]

Daze is beyond awful. It completly works against our gameplan. We want to make landdrops, not the opposite :)
Spell pierce, pact, regular counterspell, remand should work ok. Even playing goblin lackey in your high tide list would be better than daze as it at least doesn't work against you.

Lol, yeah, that's what I figured, had to ask the people who play it a little more often than I do though :)

I'll play around with it a bit as I work on it I've already got most of the library manips, the Scrolls, fetches, and Turnabouts, but still need the Candels, Time Spirals, and Flusterstorms (which I'll probably just by the commander decks and sell off all the extra cards to get some more of the other stuff I'd need) so it's getting there but needs a bit of work still. It'll be cool once it's done though since I'll be able to test around with Candels and without and be able to tell how it really affects the deck and how I play it.

And not at all, Feline, I figured it wasn't that great but just had to ask :p

[feline]

Understood, technically asking is just that, asking, and it is important to question everything as a base.

[BlackFlameAshura]

Understood, technically asking is just that, asking, and it is important to question everything as a base.

Definitely, though in retrospect, it was a pretty obviously terrible question given just how far back Daze can actually set you back in your gameplan. Ah well. Least it's not as bad as the embarrassing statement I made in the Maverick thread last week.

[Cave]

Hi everybody and congrats to Feline for the incredibly complete primer.
I'm an european player and I would like to point out some facts about the candleless version of the deck.
It seems to me that most of the information you posted about Candleless Tide is taken from E.Becker's list, which might be a good list but it is also not really standard, and full of questionable (edit: what I mean is probably "weird", or "unusual") choices. I apologize in advance if I am wrong about that, I might have misunderstood the content as english is not my native speech; also, for the same reason, i don't want to sound mean or harsh, I know the primer is written from the point of view of a seasoned pilot of the candelabra version.
Anyway, here's what most people in europe would run in the mainboard:


12 Island
6 Fetchlands

4 High Tide
4 Turnabout
4 Time Spiral

4 Brainstorm
3 or 4 Ponder
3 or 4 Preordain, depending on the quantity of ponder's
3 Meditate

4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
1 Intuition

4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
1 Pact of Negation

Now, a little commentary:
This deck which is very similar, if not identical, to the one that was posted on the previous Spiral Tide thread around page 60-ish (it won a "first-of-the-year-tournament" somewhere in europe, can't remember where).


First of all, no kill spell maindeck. The Candelabra version, due to its incredible ability to produce big amounts of mana, has access to USZ in the maindeck. USZ not only is a killing spell but also an excellent businness spell. Brain Freeze(which is the standard kill spell for uncandled tide), on the other hand, is an awful draw both in the first seven cards AND while comboing. You want to keep comboing as smooth as possible, without unnecessary bad draws. I didn't post any sideboard on the above list; anyway, most people keep one copy of both USZ and Freeze in their 15 (I do), and they often bring one of them into the mainboard G2-G3 (against opponents who might want to try to discard+extract wishes). I can understand why Becker would run Brain Freeze mainboard into his list, and that strategy has been proved effective. I am just not a big fan of that, and most players here seem to agree with me.


Meditate. I've been following and lurking High Tide threads on this forum for quite a long time now, and I have noticed the card is not thought to be good anymore. Everybody in NA seems to be running one or two copies between mainboard and sideboard. Well, I agree the card itself is bad pre-comboing, but it is really awesome while going off. Plus, at the cost of repeating myself too much, it is clear that without candelabras you can't constantly USZ yourself for 7-8+, and you should consider USZ > Meditate only in that case (well, it depends, but generally USZ is way less convenient; it only gets better when you really have a ton of mana). If you draw meditate post spiral, it is very often the first and most important spell you want to cast -unless it was your first spiral, you have 3 or 4 islands and no merchant/turnabout in hand, and you went off with only tide+spiral, which is already a tough spot-. It is a 3mana +3 card advantage, and the only one source of card advantage of the deck: you can't simply get rid of it while not running candles. As it has been already said in this thread, most uncandled list pack 3 to 4 meditates between MD and SB. And they should.


Intuition. I understand those who don't play that card (even in candleless Tide), but yeah, it is simply too good. It has won me lots of matches and I really believe that it deserves a spot in the MD. Here's the reason: without candelabras you want the full set of turnabouts MD. I am very aware that %'s of reaching a turnabout are higher with one of them in the sideboard. I am also aware, though, that the most important spells while storming are the very first 6-7, when you are generally on your toes mana-wise. Wishing for Turnabout "under 1 high tide cast" and while controlling four islands will only produce one blue mana, which is enough to win I guess, but it is not what I call a good play. Chances that single blue mana will prevent you from failing to combo are very small; and you wasted a cunning wish for that. Therefore, you want to maximize %'s of drawing or scrolling into turnabout. Back to intuition: with a full set of all your key spells in the maindeck, intuition IS the card you want. You can always intution for 3 copies of X when you already used one X (in most cases, x=tide, spiral, or turnabout) and this prevents candleless builds from fizzling A LOT. God, the card is so good that once in my lifetime I witnessed a friend winning a match with my deck, EOT intu'ing into three islands (perfect hand but very short clock and only 3 lands) :tongue: . Imho the card is too versatile to keep it out of my 60, and you can always bring it out g2.

>>> On a sidenote, I keep a Snap on my sideboard, which gets convenient (+1 mana, but also -1 creature on the board) when 2 tides have been cast, and very good afterwards. Second sidenote: there actually are people who run 3+1 Turnabouts, and that is because they also pack 2-3 Cloud of Faeries maindeck, which in my opinion is a terrible choice (because untapping 2 lands is not as good as untapping all your lands, Spell Snare is coming back, Faeries can be stifled, bolted them in response to snap, and i don't want filthy creatures in my classy blue full-spell deck :tongue:)


Support Counters. Remand is not very used, in reality. Along with their fow's, everybody runs:
- 3 Pacts or
- 3 Flusterstorm + 1 Pact or
- 1 Flusterstorm + 1 Pact + 2 Pierce (because no matter how many abrupt decay you can print, Europe tables will always be infested by counterbalances).
Which is in fact very similar to what candelabra builds run generally.


USZ Kill. I feel that what i have written so far seems very pessimistic about winning a match with blue sun's zenith in a build without candless. You can definitely do that, it just takes longer and a bit more of luck. Anyway, everytime I have wanted to USZ-Kill (vs sneak-show) so far, I have managed to. :)


This was what I wanted to point out. I know that this primer+thread refers generally to NA metagame and that I am probably your only source about EU-Candleless (you should look up in Germany, they are big fan of candleless builds up there). Still, the thread was a very good read and I felt like I had to contribute to it.
Greetings.
Cave (from switzerland too!)

[feline]

I wouldnt' say meditate isn't good, just that I've been finding it weaker in the deck than all the other cards overall, in either case, I know for a fact if I wasn't running candels, I would surely be running Meditate & more than just a 1 of. Before I got candels myself, that was my focus, I would push more Meditates very similar to the list you noted, though I still had 1 turnabout in the sideboard so it wasn't that Exact same setup, I also had a 1 of Mind over Matter in there at the time, since resolving so Meditate after Medidate meant I'd have a bunch of Lands to discard, I also had a higher emphasis on resolving more High Tides, I know when I first started like that I was casting them more because just a few lands in hand would give me alot of mana untapping 1 for 1 island when that island tapped for 6+ mana. As far as Candels or not, in the end, the deck is still the same at it's core, cast high tides, tap, untap, tap, untap etc etc etc, throw in some Spirals, & then cast a kill spell.

[Cave]

I wouldnt' say meditate isn't good, just that I've been finding it weaker in the deck than all the other cards overall, in either case, I know for a fact if I wasn't running candels, I would surely be running Meditate & more than just a 1 of. Before I got candels myself, that was my focus, I would push more Meditates very similar to the list you noted, though I still had 1 turnabout in the sideboard so it wasn't that Exact same setup, I also had a 1 of Mind over Matter in there at the time, since resolving so Meditate after Medidate meant I'd have a bunch of Lands to discard, I also had a higher emphasis on resolving more High Tides, I know when I first started like that I was casting them more because just a few lands in hand would give me alot of mana untapping 1 for 1 island when that island tapped for 6+ mana. As far as Candels or not, in the end, the deck is still the same at it's core, cast high tides, tap, untap, tap, untap etc etc etc, throw in some Spirals, & then cast a kill spell.

This is indeed true, running candles makes meditates a lot weaker. And if I remember correctly the previous thread, being able to run less medit's is what makes you room for a full 12x of cantrips, which are better cards pre-combo. I don't run all 12. Anyway, my approach on dead meditate draws is different. I don't like mind over matter, as most of the times i found it was even more of a dead cart than a meditate (or sometimes a wish) is. I usually tend to make card quality out of the lands i draw with meditate by brainstorming them back on the top of the deck and fetching-preordaining/pondering-scrolling-intu'ing them away; which is also good and indirectly produces mana too (because you draw-tutor into more turnabouts and tides). I didn't test MoM very deeply though, perhaps you were using it to constantly go for the USZ kill: in that case it would be more of a key spell and less of a win-more.

However, 3 Turnabouts md= 30-ish % post spiral, 60-ish % taking scrolls into account, 80% with wishes.
4 turnabouts md = 40-ish % post spiral, 70% (if i'm correct) with scrolls.

The two approaches are kinda different, but I feel both are viable.

[feline]

I eventually cut the Mind over Matter anyway, but when it was in there yea, I was pushing for Blue Sun's Zenith even before I got Candels, I'm not sure why now that I think about it, but now that I realize it, I think I've always gone for Blue Sun since the beginning, I don't know why if starting out like that I overlooked Brain Freeze, maybe I just got too used to USZenith when proxy'ing the deck before making it, or I'm just nuts and like to do 50+ mana into X instead of just casting 15+ spells because it takes more cRaZyNeSs!!! ^.^

[BlackFlameAshura]

So here's my updated list I'm planning on playing this weekend:

1x Blue Sun's Zenith
4x Brainstorm
3x Cunning Wish
3x Flusterstorm
3x Force of Will
4x High Tide
1x Intuition
3x Meditate
3x Turnabout

1x Candelabra of Tawnos

1x Cloud of Faeries

4x Merchant Scroll
3x Ponder
4x Preordain
4x Time Spiral

3x Misty Rainforest
2x Scalding Tarn
13x Island

///Sideboard:

1x Blue Sun's Zenith
1x Brain Freeze
2x Defense Grid
1x Echoing Truth
1x Force of Will
1x Hibernation
2x Pact of Negation
1x Snap
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Turnabout
2x Wipe Away

I decided to take apart my U/R Delver list in an attempt to focus on my main two decks for now, including High Tide, so it opens me up to having an extra Force for the side (in place of a Pact) and 2 Scalding Tarns for the main.

The things I changed in the side after some thought was Surgicals over Slaughter Pact (since the only reason the Pact was in there in the first place was Iona, I figured I'd rather have something that doesn't kill me and hits other problem cards) and I figure I'll try some Defense Grids. They might not do a whole lot for me but one of the problems I've found myself in before from time to time was losing the counter war. Even if they have islands that are making extra mana, I imagine D Grids will put them back a bit.

What I'm absolutely sure I'll see this week at this point is U/B Reanimator, MUD (possibly two of these), and UWr Delver. There's also a pretty solid chance of me seeing Oops All Spells, Belcher, Esper Stoneblade, and RUG Delver, based on what I've been seeing these last couple weeks.


I eventually cut the Mind over Matter anyway, but when it was in there yea, I was pushing for Blue Sun's Zenith even before I got Candels, I'm not sure why now that I think about it, but now that I realize it, I think I've always gone for Blue Sun since the beginning, I don't know why if starting out like that I overlooked Brain Freeze, maybe I just got too used to USZenith when proxy'ing the deck before making it, or I'm just nuts and like to do 50+ mana into X instead of just casting 15+ spells because it takes more cRaZyNeSs!!! ^.^

Only 50+ mana? Psh, you totally gotta get it to 140, draw your whole deck, then Preordain/Ponder and force them to do the same!

[esthoril]

So here's my updated list I'm planning on playing this weekend:
Pls play the 4th force maindeck :) You can easily cut 1 meditate or the maindeck blue zenith.
Instead of the force in sideboard + 2nd pact in sideboard, I would play 2 spell pierce. Helps you win against belcher and MUD and lots of other stuff postside. Also Hurkyl's Recall instead of Hibernation, especially if you expect at least some MUD.

[BlackFlameAshura]

Pls play the 4th force maindeck :) You can easily cut 1 meditate or the maindeck blue zenith.
Instead of the force in sideboard + 2nd pact in sideboard, I would play 2 spell pierce. Helps you win against belcher and MUD and lots of other stuff postside. Also Hurkyl's Recall instead of Hibernation, especially if you expect at least some MUD.

I think 6 maindeck counterspells is fine, personally, especially with tutors everywhere, I'd rather just keep the one in the side so I can wish it if need be. Also helps if someone tries to Surgical my Forces though I don't really think that's going to be very often. I'll see how it goes and if I feel I really need the extra counters that's why I've got my board. From what I've seen with a lot of decks they're the same way, not many counters in the game 1 but have a lot in the side. Also, Recall is probably not a bad idea now you bring that up (though I'll probably play Rebuild myself). I was playing Hibernation for Elves which also pops up regularly but MUD is probably way more problematic.

[Di]

I think 6 maindeck counterspells is fine, personally, especially with tutors everywhere, I'd rather just keep the one in the side so I can wish it if need be. Also helps if someone tries to Surgical my Forces though I don't really think that's going to be very often. I'll see how it goes and if I feel I really need the extra counters that's why I've got my board. From what I've seen with a lot of decks they're the same way, not many counters in the game 1 but have a lot in the side. Also, Recall is probably not a bad idea now you bring that up (though I'll probably play Rebuild myself). I was playing Hibernation for Elves which also pops up regularly but MUD is probably way more problematic.

Please put the 4th Force back in the maindeck. It isn't nearly as good Wishing for it as it is opening it or drawing it. If you are in need to Wish for a counter, you have plenty others available. The instances where you need to burn a Wish for an immediate counter to handle something are incredibly rare, and not nearly as common as using Wish end of turn to grab one to help protect your combo (which in that case Pact is superior). If an opponent ever Surgical Extracts your Forces, then give them a high five for severely misplaying against you. If you truly believe six counters is enough maindeck, then at least run four Force and two Flusterstorm.

Switch your Ponder and Preordain count. You would always want a full set of Ponder before Preordain because it digs deeper.

I'd also recommend Hurkyl's Recall over Rebuild. You'll pretty much never see a Chalice on two so that nullifies that argument, and the only reason Rebuild really gets the nod in some builds is because it bounces your Candles as well. However given you only have one that won't happen often, and you're better off using the cheaper, faster Hurkyl's Recall, which is especially important through a deck like MUD's sphere effects. I prefer it myself because of its cost despite the fact I run three Candles myself. I'd definitely run this over Hibernation, which is pretty laughable against Elves anyway given they can simply drop their hand the following turn and go nuts regardless.

[Cave]

I like your list, Ashura.
6 Counterspells is definitely viable, especially in a metagame which is full of decks that will try to outrace you (except that i would not cut FoW #4, but perhaps Fluster #3).
I quote Esthoril on Spell Pierce SB; it is definitely your better option, as it is the card that hits most of the hate-cards people board in against tide.
And it opens you to a standard sideout plan that would be -1 Tide -1 Intuition +2 Pierce, which is good against pretty much any deck.
Are those 1x Faeries gonna be a second candelabra any soon? Or you just like to wish->snap that?

Edit: On a side note, I'd like to point out another thing, which is pretty obvious, although it is not written on the OP and it could be news for people who just started testing the deck.
High tide is not always necessary to go off. You always have the two "poor guy's combos", which are:
-Six islands into Time Spiral
-Five islands Turnabout into Time Spiral
And then pray to get a merchant or a tide :D
Of course you only want to consider those two options when both you and your opponent are at nearly 0 cards in hand, and he/she has a fast clock against you. Still, it has net me some games.

[BlackFlameAshura]

Please put the 4th Force back in the maindeck. It isn't nearly as good Wishing for it as it is opening it or drawing it. If you are in need to Wish for a counter, you have plenty others available. The instances where you need to burn a Wish for an immediate counter to handle something are incredibly rare, and not nearly as common as using Wish end of turn to grab one to help protect your combo (which in that case Pact is superior). If an opponent ever Surgical Extracts your Forces, then give them a high five for severely misplaying against you. If you truly believe six counters is enough maindeck, then at least run four Force and two Flusterstorm.

Switch your Ponder and Preordain count. You would always want a full set of Ponder before Preordain because it digs deeper.

I'd also recommend Hurkyl's Recall over Rebuild. You'll pretty much never see a Chalice on two so that nullifies that argument, and the only reason Rebuild really gets the nod in some builds is because it bounces your Candles as well. However given you only have one that won't happen often, and you're better off using the cheaper, faster Hurkyl's Recall, which is especially important through a deck like MUD's sphere effects. I prefer it myself because of its cost despite the fact I run three Candles myself. I'd definitely run this over Hibernation, which is pretty laughable against Elves anyway given they can simply drop their hand the following turn and go nuts regardless.

Alright alright ya talked me into it :p

I was planning on fixing the Ponder count just haven't gotten around to it yet.

As for Rebuild vs Recall the MUD player I know at the store will in fact often go chalice for one and chalice for two. Might not always happen like that but it does and I can cycle the rebuild if I really need to. I have both though so I'll probably playtest both against him and see how it works.


I like your list, Ashura.
6 Counterspells is definitely viable, especially in a metagame which is full of decks that will try to outrace you (except that i would not cut FoW #4, but perhaps Fluster #3).
I quote Esthoril on Spell Pierce SB; it is definitely your better option, as it is the card that hits most of the hate-cards people board in against tide.
And it opens you to a standard sideout plan that would be -1 Tide -1 Intuition +2 Pierce, which is good against pretty much any deck.
Are those 1x Faeries gonna be a second candelabra any soon? Or you just like to wish->snap that?

I don't know that I'd board out one of my high tides ever really. I'd sooner take out a meditate than a high tide. And I'd certainly like the cloud to become a candel. The snap is there for the cloud of faeries, yes, but mainly to bounce problematic creatures in general. It works both ways for me.

[Cave]

I don't know that I'd board out one of my high tides ever really.

As I said, I know nothing about NA metagame, but a lot of decks here pack discard or counter spells, and pretty much everybody has some sort of exraction tool in their Sideboard.
Chances of counter/discard+surgical/extirpate are low. Still, I personally don't want that to happen. And if it happens, I want some way out.

[feline]

Maybe I'm crazy or overly cautious, but against any opponent I assume the worst, and just about 100% of the time games 2-3, I sideboard out 1 High Tide.

The only exception might be against something like Belcher or Ad Nauseam Storm decks, where they plan to kill the opposing graveyard based decks faster, & their sideboard is wish dedicated, usually devoting the remaining spots to things like Xantid Swarm, Pyroblast etc, anti blue stuff.

[Di]

I don't know that I'd board out one of my high tides ever really. I'd sooner take out a meditate than a high tide. And I'd certainly like the cloud to become a candel. The snap is there for the cloud of faeries, yes, but mainly to bounce problematic creatures in general. It works both ways for me.

You should be boarding out a High Tide nearly every single match. With the exception of decks that threaten to race you (Storm, Dredge, Burn) where speed is more important, you should be boarding out a High Tide in virtually all other matchups to maximize Cunning Wish's effectiveness in the face of hate, be it additional discard/disruption or Surgical Extraction.

EDIT: What Feline said above as well.

[BlackFlameAshura]

Well the more you know then I guess. I suppose I've still got plenty to learn about the deck hehe

[feline]

I didn't know Anwar Ahmed played High Tide at the Washington DC open last week, that's awesome!

~Sorry for the randomness~

-edit- 42nd out of 268, I'd say he did alright ^.^

[Cave]

I didn't know Anwar Ahmed played High Tide at the Washington DC open last week, that's awesome!

~Sorry for the randomness~

Did he do well? Can't find anything on the web, just a two-years-old tide list of him.

[TiMeWaLk]

I have a question for all of you, in which order are you playing your cantrips post Spiral? I guess it depends on the rest of your hand but let's say you open this:

- Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain + 4 lands/counters.
- Brainstorm, Brainstorm, Preordain + 4 lands/counters.
- Brainstorm, Brainstorm, Ponder + 4 lands/counters.
- Brainstorm, Ponder, Ponder + 4 lands/counters.

I did not put Top in the list yet :laugh:

[ScatmanX]

I didn't know Anwar Ahmed played High Tide at the Washington DC open last week, that's awesome!

~Sorry for the randomness~

-edit- 42nd out of 268, I'd say he did alright ^.^
How do you get that kind of info?

[feline]

saw that he played against bryant cook in bryant's tournament report, then i went to the event at starcity, looked up the last round standings & saw his name at that placing, I do alot of research ^.^

[Lejay]

You should apply to SCG coverage jobs. :)

[clavio]

Great guide feline!
---

So I finally splurged for Candles, and I'm going to play the deck in a small tournament tomorrow. The thing is, I only have 1 BSZ. Should it be in my maindeck or sideboard?

Also I was just wondering what the thinking is behind the 12 Island/6 Fetch configuration. Are there any real negatives to running more fetches/less Islands? Thanks!

[Cave]

I have a question for all of you, in which order are you playing your cantrips post Spiral? I guess it depends on the rest of your hand but let's say you open this:

- Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain + 4 lands/counters.
- Brainstorm, Brainstorm, Preordain + 4 lands/counters.
- Brainstorm, Brainstorm, Ponder + 4 lands/counters.
- Brainstorm, Ponder, Ponder + 4 lands/counters.

I did not put Top in the list yet :laugh:

The "which cantrip first" question is really complex. You need to take in account a lot of factors. Right now i can't really answer in-depth (it is saturday evening, I had party :tongue: and i'm just checking e-mails and forums before going to bed), but assuming mana is not an issue, I will give an answer based on the specific traits & behaviour of the three spells while comboing.

1. Brainstorm
Making card quality: Best of the three cantrips.
Reason: it does not only look at three, but it really draws you three cards. Therefore, you are putting back on the top of your deck the worst two cards out of your hand of seven, and not the worst two out of the first X top cards.
Digging for a specific spell: Worst of the three cantrips.
Reason: if you don't find the card you are looking for, you will have two horrible cards on the top of your deck, therefore wasting your next cantrip or forcing you to use a tutor to get rid of those.
What's good about Brainstorm: It can be saved and used to respond enemy (counter)spells.

2. Ponder:
Making card quality: Worst of the three cantrips.
Reason: If you find a card you absolutely need in the first three cards, but the other two are useless, you are forced to keep those two bad cards on the top of the deck.
Digging for a specific spell: Best of the three cantrips.
Reason: It digs four.
What's good about Ponder: Lorwyn artwork is very cool :tongue: plus it really finds you what you need.

3. Preordain:
Making card quality: Average
Reason: Doesn't provide you more than one new card, but it fixes the top of your deck.
Digging for a specific spell: Average
Reason: You can put two on the bottom and draw a blind card, which is worse than ponder but better than a brainstorm which doesn't find the right card.
What's good about Preordain: It interacts so well with the other two cantrip spells.

By those statements I can get two rules of thumb.

General rule of thumb for me: you want to play first the cantrip that does best what you are trying to achieve. Examples:
Good post-spiral hand + Brainstorm + Preordain? I would Brainstorm to improve my hand's card quality further, and then preordain the worst two cards away.
Bad post-spiral hand + Brainstorm + Preordain? I would generally look for another spiral, therefore i'd preordain, and then brainstorm, because it digs deeper.

Second rule of thumb: You have to be desperate to chain two brainstorms. NEVER chain two brainstorms in a row. The second brainstorm only digs one card more. Brainstorm is best followed by any other cantrip or reshuffle effect.

Therefore:
In every one of the four situations you listed, i'm definitely digging for one specific card (and that card would be a spiral, to get a better hand to restart with) I would play the following sequences:
Assuming I have plenty of counterspells (lets say, 2 to 3 + the cantrip spells + the rest is lands):

1. Brainstorm+Ponder+Preordain: Ponder, then Preordain, then Brainstorm.
2. Brainstorm+Preordain+Brainstorm: Brainstorm, then Preordain, then Brainstorm.
3. Brainstorm+Ponder+Brainstorm: Brainstorm, then Ponder, then Brainstorm.
4. Ponder+Brainstorm+Ponder: Ponder, then Ponder, then Brainstorm.

Of course there are exceptions to this, but since is very late...well, see ya tomorrow.


@Clavio: Playing 6 fetches and 12 islands is not a rule set in stone. Take in account that fetchlands are very good pre-combo, because playing polluted&co makes your deck thinner and prevents you from drawing too many lands while setting up your hand for the big win. While comboing, drawing into fetches is often as bad as drawing islands. Everybody would probably be playing 12 fetchlands and 6 island if there were no cards like Stifle or Trickbind. Anyway, 6 has been proved to be a good compromise between being able to reshuffle your deck plus lowering chances of drawing lands, and keeping your manabase solid by preventing your opponent to harass your lands. If you think differently, feel free to try other setups; in my mind, any number between 4 and 8 is almost equally efficient (also remember that sometimes that very one life points can be an issue, especially against fast decks)

[Seraph2k]

What can we do against Dredge? The matchup feels very bad and my two SB cages and a echoing truth seems not enough... Or just hope not to face the deck during the next GP?

[entreri_fans]

dredge is difficult. flusterstorm is golden here along with force of will.

if we counter their first discard spell(study, breakthrough), we are likely to slow them down.

but sometimes it is still hard to interact with them(Putrid Imp discarding). This creature defeated me several times>_<~

the good news is that due to extremely poweful gravehate(thank you deathrite shaman & rest in peace), dredge is an uncommon deck now.

[esthoril]

So I finally splurged for Candles, and I'm going to play the deck in a small tournament tomorrow. The thing is, I only have 1 BSZ. Should it be in my maindeck or sideboard?

Also I was just wondering what the thinking is behind the 12 Island/6 Fetch configuration. Are there any real negatives to running more fetches/less Islands? Thanks!
Bit late but sideboard!! Some people play 1 main, 1 side, some people play 0 main, 1 side. Nobody plays 1 main 0 side :)
6 fetch + merchant scroll + ponder is plenty shuffle effects. You don't want to damage yourself too much and having too much fetches also makes it harder to hide stuff from discard when they have wasteland. They waste you and you either lose a land or shuffle away the cards you hid from their discard for ex. 12/6 seems like a good split.

[feline]

Confirmed on the dredge match up, that's just a bad one, being able to Cabal Therapy an opponents hand apart that fast is just dumb, especially when they can do it before you even get to the point of being able to wish for something like Surgical Extraction because you're not even on your turn 3 yet. Best is to just slow them down enough to combo out before they get their setup going, the match up is just one of the worst out of the more known Legacy strategies.

On a side note, next weekend is the standard/standard Sat/Sunday, gonna be interesting to see the turnout for both days and compare.

[BlackFlameAshura]

On a side note, next weekend is the standard/standard Sat/Sunday, gonna be interesting to see the turnout for both days and compare.

I'm still thoroughly ticked off that they decided not to do Legacy for Orlando. I'd have driven up there and played all day and all night, especially since I typically have Sundays off.

EDIT: Well I'll still probably try going up there anyways. My family's looking to go to Disney on Sunday and, go figure, the tournament is being held at one of the park hotels. Might go see if they're gonna do any Legacy side events.

[feline]

Dam, I didn't know you were one of the people that got burned for legacy on that, I apologize I can't imagine how frustrating that would be to happen.

[Dessyreqt]

Unfortunately it seems they burned the whole south in that regard. I'm in the DFW area and Kansas City was the last major Legacy event in any reasonable driving range for the foreseeable future.

[BlackFlameAshura]

Dam, I didn't know you were one of the people that got burned for legacy on that, I apologize I can't imagine how frustrating that would be to happen.

Yeah Orlando's only like 1.5/2 hours away so it's not too far of a drive. I'm sure there will be side events too. My one local store does sponsor some people for events so if I can bum a standard deck I might play since it'd be for free anyways. Still annoying as hell though :/

[esthoril]

Epic Spiral Tide weekend for me :) Played 2 Strasbourg GPTs.

First a small one (22 players) on saturday. I played sneak show myself because I already planned on playing spiral tide on sunday in a larger one and wanted to play some shorter rounds on saturday. Very last minute a good friend of mine decided to play the GPT as well and borrowed my spiral tide deck.

He went 4-1 with it in the swiss (never having played the deck before), his only loss not really being a loss but a scoop when he got paired against me (since he already had 3 byes). He then, just like me lost his quarterfinal. Needless to say, I was very happy about our day and him doing so well with my spiral tide list.

And of course it gave me some extra motivation for today as I wanted to do better than him :cool: I played more or less the exact same list today in a bigger GPT (76 players). I went 5-1, ID in round7, crushed my opponent in the quarters and then lost a rather stupid match and especially game 3 in the semi-finals against D&T... Yeah I know. Seriouly losing against D&T :cry: (to comfort you all, I didn't lose because D&T is a real threat against us. It still is similar to a bye, but more on that tomorrow :smile:).

In any case, out of the 10 round of swiss that were actually played with my list this weekend between me and my friend as pilot, 9 of them were won and most of them were far from close. Just got home now and exhausted, but I will write a detailed round by round report tomorrow as I already made some notes during the trainride home.

And after this past weekend, I'm now 100% sure I will play our beloved islands at GP Strasbourg.

[BlackFlameAshura]

My store couldn't fire a tournament because of SCG Orlando so I didn't get to play High Tide like I was hoping to this week. We got 7 of 8 people and it just died off. Gives me an extra week to prepare and practice it, I suppose.

Speaking of SCG Orlando, apparently SCG said on Twitter the reason they went the double standard route was because Legacy had record lows here in Florida. Funny enough, the day two with Standard showed a tremendous drop off. There were less than 200 people on day two, that's ridiculous.

[TiMeWaLk]

@ esthoril

It's always nice to read that High Tide players did well! I can't wait to read your report (I am curious about your side board actually, did you kept Remoras?).

Congratz. I'm sure you can do the same on the GP :wink:

[feline]

Got an open in a few weeks, but after that there's nothing for like 4 months on the entire west coast, and the Utah one will be double standard in August, not optimal for High Tide lol, gonna be a bland summer.

As far as local Legacy scenes go, they're still going here, but one of the 2 places I was playing type 1.5 at regularly has stopped doing so, so now it's just once a week, & even that place averages like 8-12, a year ago it was closer to 20, but either way, I just don't want to see it shrink on the local level anymore.

[esthoril]

!! Warning !! this might become a rather long post :)

The list my friend played on saturday had 1 candelabra, 1 cloud of faeries as he didn't have his own candelabra with him (which I usually borrow as my 2nd as I also only have 1 myself). Apart from that he played what I always play.

4 brainstorm 4 preordain 3 ponder
4 merchant scroll 3 cunning wish 1 intuition 2 meditate
4 force 3 flusterstorm 1 pact
4 high tide
3 turnabout 2 candelabra
4 time spiral
18 land (6 fetch 12 island)

After the tournament I asked him what his thoughts were and if he would change anything. He confirmed my thought about the one pact of negation so I decided to try something else in that slot on sunday. I went with a slightly fancy one-off snapcaster mage :cool:

Saturday

First, one epic win from my friend on saturday.

R4 against MUD
given the current meta, I decided to cut hurkyl's recall (rebuild) from sideboard, as I don't count MUD as a real threat and with maverick using mother of runes to protect canonist also gone, I don't really see the need to keep playing it.
But of course, it makes your matchup against MUD a bit tougher. This game however might show that it still is quite good as my friend never played spiral tide before and managed to win through a lot of hate.

MUD has in play: chalic @1, chalice @2, lodestone golem, active kuldotha forgemaster.
My friend goes EOT wipe away on the chalice @1, in his turn high tide, turnabout, time spiral.
Only bounce left in sideboard is echoing truth so wishing for bounce is not an option and neither is merchant scroll to find the wipe away as chalice @2 is still on table. Another spiral and lots of cantrips later, he does find his wipe away again and bounces the chalice @2. He then scrolls for snap to get rid of the forgemaster (mana wasn't an issue anymore so lodestone golem didn't matter). Opponent gets witchbane orb in response to the snap. My friend cantrips till he has wish + intuition in hand. Uses intuition for 2 scroll + wish. He gets scroll and uses it to find the last cunning wish, which finds echoing truth. Bounce the orb, use wish to find zenith and lets his opponent draw his entire deck.

So the list played only 1 candelabra (and a faerie) and no hurkyls in side, only to let his opponent draw his entire deck through chalice @1, chalice @2 and without ever bothering about the lodestone golem. I really enjoyed watching this (even though it did delay the entire tournament for quite some time :)).

Sunday

So on sunday I played spiral tide myself, without the maindeck pact, with the one snapcaster.

My sideboard was
2 mystic remora
2 spell pierce
2 pact of negation (as I didn't play one main, to go to a 1+1 configuration postside against heavy blue)
1 wipe away
1 echoing truth
1 snap
1 surgical extraction
1 turnabout
1 intuition
1 brain freeze
1 blue sun's zenith
1 gigadrowse (just to test it out, sometimes boarded it, never used it)

Onto the tournament!

R1: Nic Fit (or maybe it was Jund)
I sit down and before I can even take my deckbox, my opponent goes "mèrde, c'est contre le high tide!" (shit, it's against high tide in french). I'm like lolwut? Haven't played this deck at this location in like 6 months. I almost feel famous :laugh:
G1: I win the roll, he goes turn 1 cabal therapy naming brainstorm. I don't have one but I do have lots of other goodies, namely high tide, turnabout, time spiral, cunning wish and some lands. I draw another turnabout. He plays dryad arbor and passes the turn. Yeey! I draw intuition and thanks to it I can now go off with 3 lands, while having played 2 high tides before the first spiral, making it a lot easier to not brick when comboing on 3 lands.
G2: He plays T1 forest top, T2 taiga shaman. He seems unable to find a black mana source or even a fetchland with his top, so I play only basic islands, keeping all the fetchland in my hand. In my 4th turn I can go high tide, turnabout, wipe away your taiga, time spiral. With him now also cut off from red mana, it's trivial to finish the game.

2-0

R2: Combo Elves
me and my big mouth saying combo elves is a rather good matchup.. I still think it is, but after this match, I decided I need to test some more against it for sure.. even though I might not have played it optimally in retrospect.
G1: he wins the roll and has a rather nut hand. T3 he wins through force + flusterstorm :mad: He starts with glimpse, I force as he already had heritage druid + cradle in play and could easily pay a flusterstorm for 2. He then just drops 5 elves and regal force.. If he has natural order, zenith or chord of calling, I win the game. He had the oneoff regal force actually in hand. I lose. Such is life.
G2: T1 llanowar elves from him, T2 play another elf, therapy, flashback therapy. I play brainstorm in response to the first therapy and put back high tide and time spiral below, while still having force, turnabout, 3rd land and another time spiral and some blue cards in hand. So if he doesn't name force of will now, I can combo out on my next turn, forcing his flashbacked therapy. Which I now think is a capital mistake on my part. I base my game plan on a suboptimal play from my opponent. He names force of course, flashback takes my spiral and he combo's out in his 3rd turn.
I should have put force back, with time spiral below. He names force which is the optimal play, doesn't hit, then has the choice to take spiral OR high tide.. In my turn I draw force to stop an attempt on his part and the turn after draw a time spiral. Would have been much much better.

0-2 which I deserved given how I played.

R3: TES
this guy judged the smaller GPT the day before and we talked a lot as he knew 'that guy delaying the tournament with spiral tide' was playing with my borrowed deck :)
G1: he plays some probes and then sculps a very nice hand to beat my force + flusterstorm. He starts with ritual, which I let resolve. Then silence, which I force. Then he drops LED, LED, petal, empty the warrens for 14 tokens.. I have flusterstorm, but he can easily pay for it with his LEDs. Nice done. I can survive a swing though and scroll for tide to combo in my next turn. He rips burning wish from the top and kills my hand with his sideboard cabal therapy.
G2: in go 2 remora, 2 spell pierce. I have T2 remora with flusterstorm open. Which gives me plenty of time to win.
G3: can't remember any details here, as I played TES two more times in later rounds.

2-1

R4: TES
G1: I play something similar to monoUcontrol this game :) Cantrip into flusterstorm, scroll for force, repeat. After some time I have 6 islands in play and my hand is 2x flusterstorm, 2x force, turnabout, time spiral. I don't want to try go off with turnabout, spiral on 6 lands without a high tide because IF I don't make it, my opponent has a good chance to finish me off. He is still stuck at 2 lands and quite sure he cant beat my hand of counters anyway.
Next turn however he decides to finally go for it. Silence, I force, pitch turnabout. Ritual, I flusterstorm (I think), he pays by playing another ritual, plays some artifact mana, plays his last card ad nauseam with exactly 5 mana. I flusterstorm again for plenty. I finally find a high tide with a cantrip and combo out.
G2: I board in my snap + the 4 above, cause I want an extra out against xantid swarm. He probes me turn one and doesn't go for the swarm plan as he sees the snap in my opening hand :tongue: Some turns later he only has 1 gemstone mine as white source and I can combo out easily after force on his silence.

2-0

R5: Death & Taxes.
G1: Very very typical D&T game. He plays T2 Thalia, I combo out T5 with upkeep high tide using the land he ports and without ever worrying about the Thalia.
G2: he eats my 4th island with mangara of condor but makes the critical mistake of ticking his vial to 3 instead of leaving it on 2. I now don't have to worry 'bout midcombo vial into canonist. In my upkeep he ports 2 of my 3 lands. I use one to play high tide. Tap the remaining 2 to float 4 blue mana. Let the port abilities resolve(!), turnabout my 3 lands, end my upkeep. Pretty happy how I played here. Play 4th land and combo out. After spiral I turnabout him, hoping he didn't draw a flickerwisp to make life a bit easier, but he did and eats my 4th land again :) I have enough business though to finish him off regardless.

2-0

R6: Merfolk
G1: He plays T1 mutavault, T2 standstill. Sure bro. No pressure. I do the typical island go for a couple turns than have an easy win while still at some 10 life.
G2: he plays T1 island, no vial, no cursecatcher, T2 he goes draw go without playing a land... :eyebrow: Only thing that pops in my mind is that he must have a hand filled with counters. I make landdrops for a few turns while he's still stuck on 1 land. I go for it with 4 islands and flusterstorm + pact backup. High tide, he forces, I pact, he dazes leaving U floating. I CAN pay for the daze but IF he has another counter, I will die to my own pact next upkeep so I decide to flusterstorm for 5, putting 2 copies on his daze, 2 copies on his force, 1 copy on my own pact. My opponent however has a flusterstorm of his own. Like most people though, he is clueless on how to use that card correctly (3 copies on my high tide, 3 copies on my flusterstormcopy that targets my pact and I was dead to my pact for sure). He just counters my high tide with it. All my stuff goes to the bin and I pass the turn. He replays his land, I make some more landdrops. I try to go for it again but get hit by spell pierce. Few turns later, I have 8 lands(!) + candelabra in play and turnabout + spiral in hand. I decide to try yet again.. Spiral gives me plenty of goodies and with 8 islands and candelabra already in play, he soon can draw his entire deck.

2-0

R7: ID

Top 8: TES
Yay!
G1: He probes and isn't happy with what he sees :) I flusterstorm his T2 infernal tutor, as I'm sure he will grab a second protection spell. His T2 infernal resolves though and he grabs a second lotus petal. I'm now thinking he either already has 2 protection spells in hand ór he just dies to my countermagic. It turns out to be the latter :tongue:
G2: T1 cantrip into remora, T2 remora with flusterstorm backup. Lots of people are excited to see this vintage staple being played in legacy :laugh: I pay for it 'till turn 5. He tries to go for it, I flusterstorm both his burning wishes and combo out in my turn.

2-0

Turns out TES has a hard time beating 2 spell pierce, 3 flusterstorm, 4 force, 2 remora, 4 merchant scroll etc :cool:

Top 4: Death & Taxes.
It's already past 9 in the evening and I still have two 1 hour trainrides home.. So making it to the finales probably means I wont have a connection to my second train anymore and won't be able to get home. Kinda worried about this on top of 2 already long days makes me play just a bit too sloppy on a crucial play that probably cost me the match :mad:
G1: mull to 6, keep a decent hand, but onelander.. I have 2 cantrips and all combopieces and don't want to go to 5.. He starts, I draw, cantrip T1 but don't find a 2nd land. He plays T2 thalia and I don't get to cast another spell for the rest of the game.
G2: he mulls to 4 so again not much of a game.
G3: I have a very decent hand, but this time I'm stuck at 2 lands, despite playing 3 cantrips (of which only 1 brainstorm).. He EOT1 tutors for canonist, plays T2 thalia, T3 canonist. He then swings with both but can flash in my one-off snapcaster and kill his canonist by blocking it!!! :cool: I'm sure he didn't see that one coming. I manage to get to 4 land, but Thalia is still in play. The turn before he swings for lethal (a serra avenger joined Thalia), I merchant scroll.. my options are turnabout and snap. Here it all takes it's toll and I don't think long enough, taking the turnabout which gives me a sure kill IF I draw a land. I don't next turn and die.
Snap would have given me much better chances, even though not a very obvious line of play imho.
Tap 2 lands for high tide, tap land #3 for 2nd high tide, tap land #4 for 3 to play snap for 3 bouncing his avenger (couldn't bounce Thalia as he had karakas open). Untap 2 land, tap 1 for 3, play ponder for 2, leaving 1 floating and IF my ponder finds a land, I can play a 5th land, tap the remaining two for exact 7 mana and play my spiral...
Kinda strange and disappointing end of an otherwise fantastic weekend.

Finals would have been against RUG. Not easy but most certainly also not a lost cause.

So really had a blast this weekend enjoying spiral tide a lot on both days. I'm now convinced about at least 59 cards of the list and most of my sideboard and really looking forward to GP Strasbourg in 2 weeks. Thanks for reading!

[Mackan]

Well played and well written! Congrats:)

[TiMeWaLk]

Very nice report! Congratz!

What are those 59 cards you are sure about? Of course, I am mainly curious about those:

- 1 Snapcaster
- 2 Remoras (very strong against Storm, but I don't know against other match-ups)
- 1 Gigadrowse

I would feel very unfortable to cut Hurkyl (and to a lower degree Ravenous Trap)

[feline]

Doing some testing against some newer stuff, starting with TinFins, I'll update more if I run into anything unexpected from TinFins (Reanimator, Griselbrand combo type deck) haven't had as much time for testing as doing other stuff with primers, but I felt like doing some rounds this evening on something.

[feline]

Update, Apr-3rd-2013
Number of Players : 137 - Trapani Giulio - Tarmogeddon 7 - March-24th-2013
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10480&iddeck=76436
Creatures [2]
1 Cloud of Faeries
1 Snapcaster Mage
Instants [23]
1 Brain Freeze
1 Snap
3 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate
3 Turnabout
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
Sorceries [16]
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Time Spiral
Artifacts [3]
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
Lands [16]
3 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
9 Island
Sideboard [15]
1 Echoing Truth
1 Snap
1 Pact of Negation
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Intuition
1 Wipe Away
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Turnabout
Not sure why this wasn't on there the other day, but either way, whatever the delay was, it's why this is being posted here on April 3rd when the date of the event was March 24th. In either case, it's on here now. ^.^

~16 lands.
~Maindeck Cloud of Faeries & Snapcaster mage, & Candels.
~Maindeck Brain Freeze, no maindeck Blue Sun's Zenith.
~No Flusterstorms.
~4 total meditates.

[xfxf]

I still think it is, but after this match, I decided I need to test some more against it for sure..

I'm sure it's just a hick up, who needs to test against Elves. Matchup is almost a bye.

[Seraph2k]

Has anybody experiences with a single palinchron in a non-candels list? Maybe to take the place of a maindeck turnabout which can be added to the wishboard instead...

[feline]

A few lists have done a palincron, as recent even as the gen con list that made top 32 out of 350 or so back in august

-edit April 7- Schedule's out for rest of year for Open series http://www.starcitygames.com/pages/scgop/schedule
Plan on pushing High Tide unless something drastic changes at the following:
Seattle Wa in 2 weeks, Apr-21st
Seattle Wa Oct-20th
Los Angeles Nov-3rd
San Francisco/Oakland Dec-8th
Las Vegas - Dec-13-14-15 (Invitational)

If you're at any I'll see you there

[Cave]

@Feline:
Normally, italian tournaments take place on sunday. After the event, the organizer may take one or two weeks to post the Top8-16-32 lists, tournament pictures, and such stuff. It just works that way.

@Palinchron: meh, I don't like it :frown: it only gets useful when you have plenty of mana, which, in many cases, means you already won. You'd only want to play that if your metagame was infested by 15/15 flying robots, to push for more USZ kills. However, keep in mind that turnabout is by far your best untapper (in candle-less tide), and usually when people want to take out a single tournabout to put it in their sideboard, they usually try to replace it with other two or three untap cards in their maindeck. I would not recommend going for only 3 Turnabouts + 1 Palinchron.
Becker list packs 3 Turnabouts and no other untapper, but it relies on remanding its own freeze (thus needing less spells) and that's an entirely different approach.

[Seraph2k]

Ok, no Palinchron for me. Added another Meditate to my maindeck, instead of it. So I have 3 turnabout main and one in my sideboard for the cunning wish.

[entreri_fans]

This list is good if you do not have candelabras.


http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10331&iddeck=75297

[Cave]

Ok, no Palinchron for me. Added another Meditate to my maindeck, instead of it. So I have 3 turnabout main and one in my sideboard for the cunning wish.

Maybe I haven't been making my point very clear, perhaps it is because my english is quite bad. I'll try to explain better.
According to my tests, uncandled Spiral Tide gets a lot worse with just three untap spells maindeck.
You need to scroll for turnabout more often, and this is bad because tournabout is really a key spell in the process of storming. You definitely want to draw into that.

The fact that you have the possibility to wish for the #4th it is kinda irrelevant in my opinion, because the typical situation in which you do that, is after the first Time Spiral.
At that point of your combo, if you are @T4 and you have played only one High Tide (and most times you do only get to have one tide in hand to start your combo with, not more), wishing for turnabout and casting it will only net you one blue mana: (4 islands X 2 mana each) - (2U for cunning + 2UU for Turnabout). And that is really bad.

I myself play 4 turnabouts maindeck; but I can understand people who want a sideboard Turnabout. If you choose to do so, i recommend you pack at least two other untap cards in your maindeck: Cloud of Faeries, Snap, Palinchron, or Mind over Matter. Even if you cannot fetch for those cards, you really need some other cheap way to untap your lands without going through C.Wish.
Maybe I am a bad player or I'm just unlucky, but according to my tests, the deck is gonna fail to combo a lot more, with just three turnabouts as untappers.

Therefore, if you choose to go 3+1 and not 4+0, I suggest you make room for two cloud of faeries. Take note that I am neither a supreme auctority about High Tide, nor have I been playing the deck for more than one year. If you choose to test it out with just 3+1 Turnabouts as untappers, and it fits well your playstyle, that's good for you :laugh:

@Entreri: That's pretty much my mainboard, I play the same list -1 Preordain +1 Flusterstorm .

[esthoril]

What Cave says :)

Either 4 turnabout main like the German list or 3 turnabout and 2-3 cloud of faeries.
Or stick to only 3 turnabout, no other untap main and lose a lot more games.

[Seraph2k]

Thanks for the great answer concerning the untappers. I will change my list a bit in the direction of christians.

It's solid, but ith only 2 flusterstorms maindeck. I know this seems to be enought, cause you only want so see it as a singleton during the phase of going of... but I fear hands after a spiral with no protection and maybe one cantrip.

And I an going to play a main zenith instead of the third meditate. During my testings it allowed me to finish most of the games after a single TS, which decrease the chance of fizzeling.

[Cave]

Thanks for the great answer concerning the untappers. I will change my list a bit in the direction of christians.

You're welcome. It actually took me a while to figure out what you meant with "christians". I wasn't sure if you were referring to something religious :laugh:


It's solid, but ith only 2 flusterstorms maindeck. I know this seems to be enought, cause you only want so see it as a singleton during the phase of going of... but I fear hands after a spiral with no protection and maybe one cantrip.

And I an going to play a main zenith instead of the third meditate. During my testings it allowed me to finish most of the games after a single TS, which decrease the chance of fizzeling.

I also like to play three copies of flusterstorm and generally i'm stuck with 8 counters MD and not less. If you want to play three fstorms, given that you cannot take out the staple cards, I see four options:
1. Play 11 cantrips not 12, with preordain being a 3-of, as I do. You can find my decklist around page 4 of this thread; however, it is almost identical to the list you are referring to, except for -1 cantrip +1 flusterstorm.
2. If you do not like playing less than 12 cantrips, you can move MD intuition to SB to make room for fluster #3. I tried that and didn't like it, but just feel free to test it out.
3. You can take out MD pact. I highly disagree with that. Pact lost me a game out of a million and won me many, many games.
4. You can take out Wish #3. I also disagree with that but if you play MD kill (I don't) it could be viable.
edit: 5. You take out Meditate #3, but you already said you want to play only two. Dropping to 1x without Tawnos seems too much of a risk to me.

While playing full cantrips is more likely to get you to an ideal hand at turn four, intuition is a very strong midcombo option, and a valuable EOT-3 setup spell against decks that have no counterspells. The point in taking out pact -while, I repeat, one MD pact is really good for me- is that PoN is an offensive counterspell, you cannot play pact when waiting or doing the control game (namely against faster combos) resulting in it being a dead card sometimes; playing more wishes makes your deck very flexible and able to answer threats, but it also slows it down if you draw them pre-combo. Basically any of those approaches is viable; just figure out what you like by playing.

I am going to test Zenith md in the future too; i never considered to do it because it was just "candelabra stuff". :laugh:

[Seraph2k]

I would never cut my maindeck pact, too. Why do you think somebody will remove it from the list? While going off its an additional protection when you don*t want to remove a card for force... or simply it*s force number 5.
I think that 2 meditates are right cause I am sold on my 12 cantrips. I need cardquality and not quantity. Indeed the third meditate is replaced by my intuition (1/1 split). The card is never dead and fetches the card needed to go off.

[esthoril]

I would never cut my maindeck pact, too. Why do you think somebody will remove it from the list? While going off its an additional protection when you don*t want to remove a card for force... or simply it*s force number 5.
Great, just when I decided not to play maindeck pact in Strasbourg you post this :rolleyes:
Maindeck pact or 3rd candelabra as 60th cards? pact is better against blue, candle better against the rest. So candle might be better than pact in a huge random field like a GP as you can combo on turn 3 with a bit more ease if needed.

[Cave]

I would never cut my maindeck pact, too. Why do you think somebody will remove it from the list? While going off its an additional protection when you don*t want to remove a card for force... or simply it*s force number 5.
I think that 2 meditates are right cause I am sold on my 12 cantrips. I need cardquality and not quantity. Indeed the third meditate is replaced by my intuition (1/1 split). The card is never dead and fetches the card needed to go off.

I'm confused. You stated before that you wanted to play a maindeck USZ instead of your meditate #3. Did you already gave up with that idea?

@bout pact: As I said, I would never drop it, because against blue decks it is pure gold. PACTing a fow means you are not only protecting your spell, but you actually do that by evening your card disadvantage (the spell you played + pact, and they lost fow+pitch card), and that is for free. I'll quote my buddy and playtest friend who was playing a 3-MD-Pact infect combo against another guy with UW control: "Everybody can triple-pact in a turn; almost nobody can triple fow", because every FoW you play brings massive card disadvantage, while pact doesn't. In my mind, pact is just the best answer to Force of Will.

There are Tide builds with inverted quantities of pact (3) and flusterstorm (1). There also are people who don't want a pact in their 60. Their argument for not playing a pact is that the main issue with it is that you want the card in your hand the turn you are going off, but before that turn, it is just a dead card because it cannot be used for defensive purposes, which kinda makes sense.

As you said, esthoril, I think it depends on the field you're playing in.

[Seraph2k]

In my mind, pact is just the best answer to Force of Will.

Indeed it is ;) But a 1/1 split of them is enough.



There are Tide builds with inverted quantities of pact (3) and flusterstorm (1). There also are people who don't want a pact in their 60. Their argument for not playing a pact is that the main issue with it is that you want the card in your hand the turn you are going off, but before that turn, it is just a dead card because it cannot be used for defensive purposes, which kinda makes sense.

I don't like that for the GP in France. Flusterstorm is so versatile and if it is useless you can still throw it into a force against aggro preboard ;)

[esthoril]

Alright! Packed and ready to leave for Strasbourg in the morning! Really looking forward to it.
Good luck to everyone playing the GP (especially when playing spiral tide :wink:) or any other
tournament this weekend for that matter!

[TiMeWaLk]

Same here, except that I am ill... I hope to be better tomorrow :laugh:

[lambert101]

Thinking about getting into this deck. Wanted to know how people thought it was positioned. It seems solid as a storm/mana producing deck that breaks down to counters, draw, excel, and die!!!

[Cave]

Thinking about getting into this deck. Wanted to know how people thought it was positioned. It seems solid as a storm/mana producing deck that breaks down to counters, draw, excel, and die!!!

Spiral Tide is an extremely solid deck.
-Mulligan rate is very low.
-manabase is pretty much untouched by traditional mana denial (stifle+waste+moon).
-virtually all matchups are winnable (dredge is a pain though).
-it has a cunning wish toolbox.
-it goes off very safely with turnabout on their lands + multiple counterspells.
-it is relatively fast as it can win constantly on turn 4, which is as fast as most decks in the metagame.

[Zombie]

- it can make your opponents want to strangle you.

[feline]

Good luck at the GP this weekend to you and to any other fellow High Tide'rs of course ^.^

[Seraph2k]

I think we will see a lot of dredge at the GP... look at the last Trials.
Good luck to all of you, I will be there too ;)

[BlackFlameAshura]

A few lists have done a palincron, as recent even as the gen con list that made top 32 out of 350 or so back in august

-edit April 7- Schedule's out for rest of year for Open series http://www.starcitygames.com/pages/scgop/schedule
Plan on pushing High Tide unless something drastic changes at the following:
Seattle Wa in 2 weeks, Apr-21st
Seattle Wa Oct-20th
Los Angeles Nov-3rd
San Francisco/Oakland Dec-8th
Las Vegas - Dec-13-14-15 (Invitational)

If you're at any I'll see you there

Little late here but thanks for the heads up on that, Feline, didn't notice they released the rest of the dates. Sad there's nothing more really in Florida (besides the GP but that's standard...) but I might be moving out towards San Fran later in the year so I'll probably wind up going to that one.

In other news, my local meta seems to have shifted from Belcher-heavy to RUG and Esper-heavy. Not too sure how I'm feeling with these MU's yet in comparison but hopefully the fairly recent changes I've made to my build will make it a bit easier.

[feline]

If you are here in Central Cali for later this year, there's one in Sacramento/Frisco in like November which I will be going to. As far as today though, it's GP Strat! So Good luck out there in France!!! All 1,365 of you ^.^ http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpstr13/welcome

[esthoril]

Just got back from Strasbourg. Had a awesome weekend, but I'll probably switch deck for a while.
I've just lost against sneak show one time too many.. :mad:
End of last year, belgian legacy cup, semi finals lose against sneak show.
GPT Strasbroug in Eindhoven, semi finals lose against sneak show.
This friday in Strasbourg, play one last chance trial, start 4-0, lose finals against sneak show.
GP itself, start 2-0, lose round 3 against sneak show, lose round 4 against sneak show.

The deck is awesome against everything else. Most other decks you easily beat.
Against a half decent sneak show player, you have little chance. And it's simply too much present in my meta.
So any suggestions what to play at Bazaar of Moxen now? :frown:

I decided in the end to play 1 surgical 2 grafdiggers cage as GYhate.
The cage proved to be very nice :) In the last chance trial, I faced comboelves in round 4.
I win game 1. Game 2, he starts with bayou therapy, naming brainstorm. I then go island, cage.
He plays another therapy and passes again. His GY now has 2 therapies which he can't flashback,
his hand contained 3 green zenith which he couldn't cast :) Guess cage is decent against elves :cool:

[Seraph2k]

I'll stay at my high tide. The deck performed during the first two rounds at the GP very good. Won against RUG and TinFins.
Next round I lost unfortunately against BUG and then I faced a fucking fishhead with two games he found infinite cursecatchers, lords... I hate that deck...

Round 5 I conceded to a good friend of mine during the 5. extra turn of game one, who was willing to play every round of the day. But here the h. recall was sooo amazing! If I find some time I will write a short report, but at the moment I have a lack of free time :(

[slayjay]

PLayed Tide at the GP too.

Lost 3 times to Sneak and Show (Trials, Main event), it´s awful.

Lost a match to ur burn in the sudden death extra turns...it is not nice if you can´t FOW and fetch...

And lost an epic game against ur painter with counter balance and top....tapped him out with turnabout, he just revealed his only wurmcoil engine to counter my spiral...without top or brainstorm...random lucker :D

[feline]

Thank you all for representing High Tide at the GP, I'll try to give another push with the deck this weekend in a few days in Seattle at the next Open, the deck I expect to run into the most is Stoneblade, possibly followed by BUG variants.

[Cave]

Thank you all for representing High Tide at the GP, I'll try to give another push with the deck this weekend in a few days in Seattle at the next Open, the deck I expect to run into the most is Stoneblade, possibly followed by BUG variants.

= Pierce and/or Envelop 3x SB? Also show and tell seems really nasty.

[feline]

I run 3 main deck flusterstorms & I've even toyed with having the 4th in the maindeck as well.

[Larzdk]

= Pierce and/or Envelop 3x SB? Also show and tell seems really nasty.

Just a random thought - I know the SB is already stretched thin, but we could maybe run like 2 Ensnaring Bridge sb. Sneak/Show have very few options to remove it once it's on the board, and will never be attacking again. They run like 0-2 bounce SB, and I doubt they will see it coming in G2. The problem comes with resolving a 3 mana thing vs them.

[Mackan]

The problem fighting all show and tell decks (especially with a turn4 deck) is that the hate you want against emrakul is not the same you want versus neither omniscience or griselbrand. Not allowing them to resolve SnT (or Dream halls/sneak attack/whatever) is the best plan imo... Dilluting your deck with ensnaring bridge, pithing needle, jace tms, gilded drake, envelop or humility is not the way to go. about the only cards I can think of in legacy that is _good_ against them is meddling mage, v.clique and a slew of discard but obviously we can't run those. Spell pierce might be the best card, but outside of the Sneak and show/counterbalance matchups I prefer flusterstorm in the list.

Flusterstorm doesn't stop sneak attack, but it can counter their cantrips and show and tell. It's ugly but I think this is our best chance... disrupt them as much as you can and cross your fingers to untap for turn3-4 kill. As I posted earlier Turnabout their lands in upkeep helps too (but is slow). Mystic Remora is a plan aswell if you run enough free/cheap counterspells (playing misdirections as extra fow to fight their fow if the meta requires it).

[esthoril]

The problem fighting all show and tell decks (especially with a turn4 deck) is that the hate you want against emrakul is not the same you want versus neither omniscience or griselbrand. Not allowing them to resolve SnT (or Dream halls/sneak attack/whatever) is the best plan imo... Dilluting your deck with ensnaring bridge, pithing needle, jace tms, gilded drake, envelop or humility is not the way to go. about the only cards I can think of in legacy that is _good_ against them is meddling mage, v.clique and a slew of discard but obviously we can't run those. Spell pierce might be the best card, but outside of the Sneak and show/counterbalance matchups I prefer flusterstorm in the list.
When I faced SneakShow again in round 4,
game 1 he tries to go for it too soon, I win the counterwar thanks to flusterstorm leaving him outtapped.
I combo out, only to have him draw triple force with triple blue with my first time spiral, which was enough to stop me.
game 2 he tries to go off too soon again, losing the counterwar again while being outtapped. This time I can finish it.
game 3 I decided I needed another strategy to beat him on the draw so I sided in 2 defense grid. If he tries show&tell, you let it resolve, drop defense grid, he drops emrakul or griselbrand and you win in your turn as he never has 3+ mana open after casting his show&tell. If they go show&tell, you still lose if they have sneak attack + emrakul of course. Which he topdecked the turn he went for it :(
So maybe a bit unlucky this round, but in the end, he did play too greedy which allowed me to combo out in game 1 and 2. You don't have that luxury against a better player.

I played 3 fluster main with the 4th + 1 spell pierce in side.

[Larzdk]

Yah, I was probably a bit too far out of the box with the Bridge - it does solve Grisel too though, besides the fact that it allows them to dig 14 cards for a bounce-spell :cry: - I'm just trying to brainstorm a bit here, since our traditional hate doesn't seem to cut it anymore. If we go as far as to say: SnT will likely always resolve against us, maybe we can exploit it? (Which is what led me to Bridge, since they have a rough time removing it) - If we want to go this route with Omniscience we need a Riftwing/Spine of Ish Sah effect or something..

[TiMeWaLk]

Very short report about GP Strasbourg where I did a miserable 4-3 with 3 byes...

Round 4 : Affinity.

It is a strange version with Ancient Tomb for Chalice turn 1. Luckly I had Force in game 1.

Game 2, I cannot find Tide but Hurky's buy me time. I try to combo with 6 lands, 2 Turnabout and 1 Time Spiral to meet Mind Break Trap... I should have played around this one.

Game 3, I won thanks to Hurkyl's recall. He would have been too fast without the recall.

I feel quite good at 4/0...


Round 5 : RUG Delver

I win game 1 without too much problem but my opponent let me do the entire combo which took quite some time.

I loose game 2 on double Pierce + Force on his side. I should have try to turnabout him instead of going off but I would have been in the range of bolt...

Very few minutes are left for game 3 and we both try to play fast... I shuffle maybe not enough and draw a hand with no land, them 1 land, then 1 land... I should have played the time at that point... He kills me during the additional turns...

Round 6 : Ad Nauseam against the nicest opponent of my day!

I win game one easily by gathering Fow and Flusterstorm and letting the combo pieces flow in my hand.

I loose game 2. Carpet of Flowers turn 1 was very strong.

Game 3, He tries to combo with a lot of mana on the board. I have just too much counters for him and he has no hand when I counter his infernal tutor. On my turn, ponder reveals Cunning Wish + Time Spiral, I will win next turn... He top deck Past in Flames with a lot of mana in play (I counter with PoN but he has enough mana to flashback)... I am really hurt after that top deck :frown:

Round 7 : Miracle...

We all know what happens against Miracle...

I don't think I missplayed during the event but lady luck was not on my side I guess. I am going to try to find a deck with which I can interact more with my opponent because I am tired of loosing against less skilled opponents (no offense, but they were).

[topef27]

New card spoiled that may be useful in High Tide:
Uncovered Clues - 2U - Sorcery
Look at the top four cards of your library. You may reveal up to two instant and/or sorcery cards from among them and put the revealed cards into your hand. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in any order.

Seems pretty good to me.

[egosum]

Seems nice though according to a regular build, the deck is 21 non-instant/sorcery cards, this means that, in average, approx. 2 out of 3 cards will be good cards to be drawn out of this new sorcery, which means 2.666... cards out of 4. What will happen is that you will draw 2-3 cards for 3 mana, at sorcery speed. Hence, it looks like a bit inferior to meditate to me. Because, the latter, can be fetched with Scroll and Wish, and also can respond to a given hym to tourach to find action (for instance). For the non-combo step both seem similar (a part from that last point) because against a control deck you can actually tap for three in your turn comfortably, and not giving the turn is far better than the instant speed (I mean against blue based control). Against aggro is more or less the same, while not giving a turn is more important here, we also need to keep in mind that leaving mana open to respond to threats is as important, for instance to fluster a Zenith or Hymn/thoughtseize, or bounce a bear.

Nevertheless they are quite similar in the combo step, while losing the instant speed make the deck more rigid, and we can pay this from time to time.

Testing will tell, but by the time I stay with Meditate.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[Seraph2k]

Here is my short report of the GP:
The list I played was:
12 islands, 6 Fetchs, 4 TS, 4HT, 4 Turnabout, 12 Cantrips, 3 Fluster, 4 Force, 1 Pact, 2 Meditate, 4 Scroll, 1 Intuition, 3 Wish

SB: Surg extr, H. Recall, Intuition, BF, Zenith, 2 Cage, 2 Wipe A., 2 Snap, 1 Fluster, 1 Echoing T, 1 Pact, 1 Rav Trap

Round 1: vs URDelver
G 1: I am on the play, can drop my first island and pass the turn. He plays a lavamancer and three turns later he is dead thanks to Freeze.
G2: He starts much better. Drops an early delver but can’t find an instant. When he found it with brainstorm I had to eat a miracle burnspell and then it was time to go off. I was able to spiral while being at 3 life. Midcombo he tried to bolt me and to fireblast me, but force and fluster said gg.
2-0 games

Round2: vs TinFins
G1: My chinese opponent thoughtseized away 2 cards, but I was able to extract his griselbrand and stop him to find more cards. At this point I saw the silence in his hand, but he had no mana to cast it later ;) *lucky* There was a long time when we both where in the draw-go mode. Cantrips helped me a lot and after I found a meditate I was able to go off and win via zenith, knowing that Mr Spaghetti is in his library.
G2: First turn kill. There was no chance for me. He disrupted my Force and get off.
G3: I was able to cast two forced to prevent his entombs. Then I found my combopieces and TS for the win again.
4-1 games

Round3: vs BUG Control
G1: Very solid playing french player. after some attacks of his DRS and one agent who ony found a decay with his CIP I was able to go off at 12 life. One thoughseize of him was simply not enough.
G2: The first thoughtseize was no problem, but the 2 hymns followed by jace where devastating...
G3: Again two thoughtseizes, but I managed to gather the combopieces. But then I made a fatal mistake. The resolved spellbomb lead me to the play that I went directly from tide to spiral, instead of playing the turnabout which was in my hand together with a flusterstorm. I feared the removal of a lot of important cards and lost the game instead... damn thing, that will never ever happen again!
5-3 games

Round4: vs Merfolk
G1 + 2: He just draw nuts. Infinite cursecatchers followed by fucking lords and mutavaults with spellpierces and standstills... nightmare game. To loose a game is no problem, but I hate it to loose against very dislikable people... happy to see that guy never again ;)
5-5 games

Round 5: vs Affinity
G1: Unbelievable! 1375 players and I have to face a well known face from out little meta ;) I don+t know what he is playing, but he do. So he mulls game one to a quick hand, but force stops plating and thats enough time for the win ;)
G2: I am sitting on 2 lands. Playing 6 cantrips had no effect...bad luck.
G3: A great match with not enough time. My H. Recall bounced his board during the extra turns. In the last extraturn I was able to go off, knowing that all wishes where gone... so chance to win :( Beside the fact that day 2 was out of reach and I wanted to go to the artists, I lost game 3 somehow ;)
6-6/7 games

So sum up:
Flusterstorm was amazing during nearly every game.
Single disruption like TSZ or hymn are no problem, but if there are multiple of them it is a hard game.
Merfolk is a nearly unwinnable matchup. if they have the right starting 7.
Thanks to Mr Poole my manabase and playmat are now AMAZING!!!
Maybe a third meditate will be great.
It will be great if I can drop a single critter or a card that can win a game by its own during game two....
last point: The deck is great! I will continue playing it.... and I hope I will not make such an mistake in the future!

I hope my english is good enough, that you can understand most of the points.

[Larzdk]

Here is my short report of the GP:

I hope my english is good enough, that you can understand most of the points.

It's perfectly readable :) Is it just me, or does it seem like High Tide is in quite a bind at the moment? There are lots of matchups that just doesn't feel _that_ good anymore. (I agree with egosum btw - we should stick with Meditate, the instant speed is way more useful than being able to dig without the OpTimeWalk drawback)

[entreri_fans]

yeah, I know the random BGx decks are more and more popular(T1 thoughtseize, T2 Hymn, T3 lili really hurts), but still I think High Tide is a strong deck to play against them.

High Tide is a control-combo deck. it's hard to play. we don't kill T1 ,unlike tendrils-based storm. sometimes we need to be patient enough and to net enough counter-magic in order to interact with opponent, before we are able to go off.

try to play the control deck, if your opponent plays an aggresive deck. as long as they don't kill us, we are still possible to kill them.

[esthoril]

It's perfectly readable :) Is it just me, or does it seem like High Tide is in quite a bind at the moment? There are lots of matchups that just doesn't feel _that_ good anymore. (I agree with egosum btw - we should stick with Meditate, the instant speed is way more useful than being able to dig without the OpTimeWalk drawback)
As for harder matchups (but not necessarily unfavorable)
- Decks like BUG, RUG and Esper (after side) aren't freerides, but still in our favor. You need to be focussed and play your best though to win these on a regular base, as it often comes down the small details. Play your cantrips well (but that's obviously easier to say than to do :))
- SneakShow in my personal experience is quite bad. You only have a chance when they are too greedy and try to go for it with too few counters, leaving them outtapped. If they play it slower, building up their mana, you'll be in a rough spot.
- Counterbalance and plain old Reanimator (not tin fins) are bad matchups, but these decks hardly see play these days.

In the end, I think it's still well positioned, but it's a fact there are less decks that are a bye these days (like goblins or zoo) so you'll have to work harder for your wins :)

[Larzdk]

Yeah, and that's exactly my problem with the deck right now. I feel that I have to start to clog up the deck with additional counters to get that "one more turn" to get the good turn off - and in turn that hurts my post-TS hands quite a lot. I'm very uncertain how to fix it, if it's fixable at all. I'm even thinking about putting in 4 Remora in my SB to try and deal with those decks.

[TiMeWaLk]

4 Remoras is too much in my opinion. The second Remora is almost always sticking to your hand from that I have experienced.

[feline]

Well not much after this, I'll post sometime in the beginning of the next week with a tournament report regardless of how I do or do not do at Seattle this weekend, going both days this time as well, but mostly for Sunday of course. ^.^

[Isaac]

Was at a local tournament that had 35 players yesterday and made top 8 with this deck. I'll go into card choices and cuts for next time after I get home from work.

[feline]

It was like I went backwards with the deck this time around!

Went 6-3 / 41st out of 261 (if you just want to know the results), but 2 of my losses were more to myself than to my opponent, somehow I made 3 critical errors throughout the day, 2 of which cost me the match because some of the most simple basics of the deck "didn't register in my brain", 1 of which was round 1, forgetting to side board out a High Tide, against against Jund, and of course game 2 they pull of an extraction and I can't counter it, luckily however I just went for the Brain Freeze option so I still got the game/match, but the mistake was outrageous when I realized it, I've don't think I've ever done that before.

Then I go against Elves and game 1 was more my deck not cooperating as far as the combo pieces go, while I countered all the relevant stuff, they eventually got me with their army of "turn sideways guys" that still is a clock that hits lethal if you do nothing for long enough, but it was Elves and I knew what to do just fine, no mistakes there. Game 2 however I forget my other "cardinal rule" for sideboarding, which wasn't extraction, but mindbreak trap, and sure enough I have a Ponder, Time Spiral, & Force in hand, I decide "ok play ponder, look at top 3, shuffle when I see nothing cool, then get preordain, scry 2, see a candel, keep it on top, draw it, play it, then tap & play Time Spiral with 2 untapped candels in play, and they go Mindbreak Trap and I go Oh crap, I shouldn't have dug with that ponder, I got greedy" as I should have left an option to force in case they sided in Mindbreak trap, since that can technically be in any deck. (couldn't pay the 5 just to hard cast it, or even use the candels to untap islands to generate the mana in response because I was 0 mana casting Time Spiral).

So basically, not only do I forget #1 "any deck can do surgical" but then #2 "any deck can do mindbreak trap", and then I make a later mistake against shardless BUG which was me casting a High Tide and going to a Time Spiral and my brain thought that Time Spiral costed 5 mana to cast, not 6, and all I had to do was wait 1 more turn and I would have combo'ed off just fine because they couldn't swing for lethal yet, on their next turn, and they had dumped their hand and had no disruption after using some to go back and forth with earlier discard, myself using brainstorm to put the good stuff on top and wait for it, as well as using counters on Ancestral Visions after a resolved Shardless agent.

-so in conclusion, 2 of my 3 losses the night were to myself, as my opponents knew what they were doing and played their decks correctly, while I goofed on not something major, but some really simple stuff that I am very strict about not messing up on and "normally" don't ever let myself do, so I have to blame myself, note it in my brain, and move forward. I can't say I would have top 8'd if I didn't do these mistakes, but I can say that the deck is still positioned well enough to keep pushing, I didn't run into a bunch of "o crap I can't beat this" matches/disruption/etc, & the one loss that wasn't to myself, was to RUG Delver, in which it came down to what they drew, I drew, and their draws being better & RUG doing what RUG needs to do to beat High Tide, it also didn't help that I didn't win game 1 against RUG, which is important when they sideboard in all that crap for game's 2/3.

Also, I played in Type II/Standard on Saturday as well, going 5/5, but I don't feel an elaboration is necessary there because I don't know the format as well, & unlike Legacy, what I played will rotate in 5 months anyway, which was Human Reanimator.

For the wins:
Went 2-0 against two separate Jund decks
Went 2-0 against Ad Nauseam Storm deck, Thank you Flusterstorm! (I know I should be calling it ANT or TES but I don't remember at the moment)
Went 2-0 against U/R Delver
Went 2-0 against a second Elf deck (1st being in relation to the mess up against the other Elf deck noted above)
Went 2-0 against a Sneak & Show deck (Again, thank you Flusterstorm!)

~I'll do a more typical, full report, in the next few days as usual, but for now I felt compelled to jot out something, as it's more fresh in the mind & it's always nice to share something. ^.^

-edit- Oh, I also have to point out, I did 1 maindeck Intuition, 1 sideboard Intuition, and no Meditates at all, and I was fine with it after testing it a ton off and on over the past while, and I had no issues running 0 Meditate at all during the entire event.

-edit- Also, the addiction to push this deck and help keep it alive in the format is driving me to play it & magic only more, & since the next 6 months is dry for the West Coast, I might have to do an SCG or 2 in the middle part of the country, already considering something between Missouri, Texas, since I know those are the next closest ones over the summer, and Salt Lake is Double Standard in August, so I will likely pass on the Utah one unless I fall in love with type II/Standard which I doubt. I also have Family in Ohio so there's "Potential" there, but that's even further in distance.

-edit- Notes: June 9th, St Louis / June 16th, Columbus Ohio / Somerset New Jersey June 26-27-28th Invitational / August 3-4 Minneapolis, look at these options based on distance closest to West coast, while NJ is an invitational, & I have a family member in Ohio. Will likely do Minneapolis, while the other 3 are all in June, so I'll have to pick between the 3 of them.

[Isaac]

As earlier mentioned on 4/20 I played in a local tournament.

18 land (6 fetch 12 island)
4 brainstorm
3 preordain
4 ponder
4 merchant scroll
3 cunning wish
1 blue sun's zenith
1 meditate
4 force
3 flusterstorm
1 pact
4 high tide
3 turnabout
3 candelabra
4 time spiral



2 mystic remora
2 spell pierce
1 meditate
1 wipe away
1 echoing truth
1 snap
2 surgical extraction
1 turnabout
1 intuition
1 brain freeze
1 blue sun's zenith
1 rav trap

6 rounds cut to top 8 I played 12 post 2-1 cascade bug 2-1 burn 0-2 all spells 2-0 cascade bug 2-0 id round 6 then top 8 loss to cascade bug

I felt the main deck blue sun's was insane all day for me. Let me drawl those extra cards to ensure that I would combo off. Meditate didn't really make an appearance for me all day and I've considered cutting it for a top ( this needs testing to see if it will work and is just a thought ). Flusterstorm was another huge and I mean huge card. I might even consider cutting a force for another one. I hadn't play tested intuition before but it came into play during the tournament. I played cunning at the end of there turn for it then got time spiral. the mystics were cute and I did find out during one of my bug matches but it no showed for me the rest of the day.

[feline]

Grats on the top 8 ^.^ I still don't know how 12post exists with so many wastelands but it does!

[bfeingersh]

Grats on the top 8 ^.^ I still don't know how 12post exists with so many wastelands but it does!

3-4 Pithing Needles in the main of most post lists is a good start

[feline]

I feel like a total moron ha ha, the whole time since 12post having success in San Diego & since, I was like "why are these pithing needles in here they don't see THAT great" and now it finally clicks, opposing wasteland is a dam good reason. I guess that's what I get for playtesting a deck against it that doesn't run wasteland ha ha, that's High Tide for ya, making you wonder why 12post runs pithing needle's for months before you realize the answer.

[LLCoolDave]

The Pithing Needles in 12-Post came for the Wastelands, but stayed because they are sweet against the majority of the format. Esper Stoneblade can't beat Pithing Needle either, for instance. I also beat High Tide with Pithing Needle on Candelabra so it's not even completely dead in the High Tide matchup (although 12-Post has like a 1.5% chance preboard).

Here's a pragmatic question: How do you guys handle writing down Storm and Mana counts? I lend my High Tide list to a friend for GP Strasbourg as he didn't have anything else to play and he was very visually and vocally frustrated playing the deck to a 5-2-1 finish, mostly because the constant shuffling and tracking storm and mana counts took up a massive amount of his time each round. You clearly want to leave a paper trail in case a judge gets involved, but how precise do your notes have to be? What kind of system do you tend to use for this? He ended up going to time against both Dredge and Belcher, two decks not particularly well known for playing long rounds of gruesome, interactive magic, and he's not a slow decision maker with this deck either.

On a related note, how do you handle all the shuffling in a multi round tournament? This deck shuffles once or twice each turn, and like 15 times in your combo turn. His fingers were completely wrecked with cuts from the sleeves at the end of the day.

[Isaac]

Here's a pragmatic question: How do you guys handle writing down Storm and Mana counts? I lend my High Tide list to a friend for GP Strasbourg as he didn't have anything else to play and he was very visually and vocally frustrated playing the deck to a 5-2-1 finish, mostly because the constant shuffling and tracking storm and mana counts took up a massive amount of his time each round. You clearly want to leave a paper trail in case a judge gets involved, but how precise do your notes have to be? What kind of system do you tend to use for this? He ended up going to time against both Dredge and Belcher, two decks not particularly well known for playing long rounds of gruesome, interactive magic, and he's not a slow decision maker with this deck either.

On a related note, how do you handle all the shuffling in a multi round tournament? This deck shuffles once or twice each turn, and like 15 times in your combo turn. His fingers were completely wrecked with cuts from the sleeves at the end of the day.

Note pad and pen best way imo. Dice can work to but when your trying to figure out how much mana your spending on a spell then on another spell and trying to figure out how much mana you will need for the 4th spell down the line while yes I can do that in my head I want it written down just to be sure. Storm counts are also easier this way imo. 1 tick then 2 ticks then 3 and so forth. Dice can be hit move around and also just not checked. Also you spend time looking for numbers on a random sided dice and while it might only be 10 or so seconds that's time that you could be doing other things. Shuffles are something I've never had a problem with ever. I mostly just do side shuffles then ask my opponent if he wants to cut. Starts of new games i pile shuffle then side shuffle.

[feline]

Before the tourney starts, I get to do that "extra homework" for the rounds, usually I go through the 1st 8 or 9, depending on the attendance where I'm at, etc, but basically I write 20 - 20 for all 3 games on the top of the 9 pages, THEN I go to about 80% of the way down and write down "HT, ST, Mana, Pact" (Currently I am not running meditate or I'd note that as well)

HT is high tide, even though I put a die on the single island, I always put a dash on paper for each high tide resolved, I don't EVER want that to be come an issue.

ST is for storm count, when I know I have to build up enough storm to go for Brain Freeze, OR they have so much mana available with their islands, it'll take me a while before my flusterstorms are hard counters, so I have to track storm count till then. Basically I take the 1st spell played by each player on the combo turn, in my graveyard I'll turn the high tide or whatever I casted sideways and ask them to do the same with their first spell played if they played one, or will play one. Then I just keep going without writing it down because the evidence is there, HOWEVER, if I get to the point of a Time Spiral, I say "before spiraling,how many spells played? & then put the dashes in accordingly, it saves a TON of time -vs- doing it individually in between every single spell, and it's accurate and all that stuff, & puts it on paper for when you Time Spiral and all the "evidence" of what was played, was shuffled away.

Mana is for whenever I Time Spiral, I will sometimes write the mana floating down, because it'll be a bit before it's used again, being that it take some time to shuffle & draw a new 7, and you don't ever want a die to roll over, or to forget a number just because of that.

Pact is for Pact of Negation, if a Pact resolves, I put a Dash there to represent that I'll have to pay 5 on my next upkeep or lose the game, if, one fizzles of course.

Meditate would just have dashes for each one cast, representing the number of turns I'll have to skip before my next one, if, one fizzles of course.

Edit, I need to add this to the primer, I think it's very useful, though at the moment I'm still working on my tournament report for Seattle I'm done with the actual rounds, but I'm on the bonus round where me and Matthias Hunt played a High Tide mirror match for fun, though only 1 game, I'll get more into that later as I feel it is worth posting that segment of the report in here just for what it was. The High Tide mirror match isn't likely, but if you play the game enough, it is possible that it just might happen one day, and if it does, if your opponent has tested it out before and you haven't, it's going to be a total headache.

I swear the day I sit down across from my opponent at an Open, and I see my opponent play some Islands and some cantrips, then gets to the point of casting a High Tide, I'm going to call a judge over, not because there's an issue with that, but because I will be like "hey, just to let you guys know, I'm playing high tide, and my opponent just casted thier own high tide, this is going to be a mirror match from hell" just as a warning, so that a judge can be prepared or even bring over other judges or whoever else just so they can watch, I know I'd watch something that insane! That would be epic!

[pollution]

Hey everyone,

Just had a question about fetch lands: How important are they to the deck? I will, hopefully, be participating in a local tourney soon and will be running 0 fetches (partially because I've just returned and haven't bought cards since..invasion?, and partially because I am being stingy) just to see how my deck would currently do in competitive play.

I know a big benefit for running them is to shuffle after a dead brainstorm/ponder with 2 bad cards and 1 needed card, but aside from that and misleading opponents as to what deck you'll be playing (read that in some other article) I've watched a handful of matches where I didn't see any of the fetches being helpful if they were even used at all.

Thanks in advance.

[feline]

Basically it just comes down to having the option of being able to do that with a Brainstorm / Fetchland, it's just one of those "legacy staple lines of play" you see in many set ups, I would recommend going for it and getting them, the more you're missing from the deck the weaker it is overall, so you want it to be as optimal as possible, unfortunately that means getting things like Force of Will & Fetchlands, & if you find you're dedicated enough to the deck to really push it, you'll likely come to the conclusion on your own that you will have to go for at least 3 Candelabra of Tawnos (A playset of them isn't even required, as nearly all lists now that you see will be 3 Candelabra 3 Turnabout.)

Also sometimes the reason you don't see the Brainstorm trick happen with fetchland, is because they shuffle the deck with a Merchant Scroll afterward, or Scry it away with Preordain, or sometimes even do it with a Ponder then shuffle. But every time you see someone cast brainstorm, they are drawing 3 cards, then taking the worst 2 cards from out of their entire hand and putting it back onto the deck, that is something that you really want to have as an option.

[pollution]

Basically it just comes down to having the option of being able to do that with a Brainstorm / Fetchland, it's just one of those "legacy staple lines of play" you see in many set ups, I would recommend going for it and getting them, the more you're missing from the deck the weaker it is overall, so you want it to be as optimal as possible, unfortunately that means getting things like Force of Will & Fetchlands, & if you find you're dedicated enough to the deck to really push it, you'll likely come to the conclusion on your own that you will have to go for at least 3 Candelabra of Tawnos (A playset of them isn't even required, as nearly all lists now that you see will be 3 Candelabra 3 Turnabout.)

Also sometimes the reason you don't see the Brainstorm trick happen with fetchland, is because they shuffle the deck with a Merchant Scroll afterward, or Scry it away with Preordain, or sometimes even do it with a Ponder then shuffle. But every time you see someone cast brainstorm, they are drawing 3 cards, then taking the worst 2 cards from out of their entire hand and putting it back onto the deck, that is something that you really want to have as an option.

With regards to the merchant scroll/preordain follow-up for the brainstorm, that's actually why I questioned the need for fetch lands. Goldfishing a bunch of times definitely gave me some insight on workarounds for dead brainstorm draws (but it didn't dawn on me that brainstorming at the last possible moment, even with bad hands, was better than doing it early to rush hand-sculpting), almost none of which required a fetch land. He actually suggested that the fetch lands added some deck thinning, which I found a lot more useful, but I guess I didn't see as much of an importance of them since I haven't run any lists with them yet.

My friend offered to lend his set of FoW's to me when we enter the tournament, but I ended up just caving and finished buying my set so I'm covered on that end. I'm still missing 2 Flusterstorms and 3 Pact of Negations, so that will most likely be an issue for my sideboard.

Also, I know this goes against most of the deck lists/maximizing land drops staple for this deck but any input about running a Mana Severance as a 1 of in the deck? I may be incorrect in assuming how the Trade Routes build works, but I'm assuming it most often is used to replace cards in your hand mid-combo after a USZ. I wanted to test out using Mana Severance mid-combo to optimize draws by removing lands, ensuring every picked up card is useful. By the time you're going off, is it safe to assume that your opponent won't be able to destroy enough lands on your turn to cause a fizzle?

Also, if it's of any importance my deck list is currently (minus SB, since I'm missing the counters I need):
4 High Tide
4 Turnabout
4 Time Spiral
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Preordain (considering changing this to 4 and Ponder to 3, strictly for the dead card removal)
3 Meditate
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
1 Intuition
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pact of Negation
4 Force of Will
18 Island

SB (will be changed once I get proper counters and Surgical Extractions)
1 Brain Freeze
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Snap
2 Wipe Away
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Echoing Truth
1 Repeal
1 Palinchron

[feline]

The Mana Severance is really not necessary, here's why:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Intuition
4 Time Spiral
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
+ any Islands/Candelabra's in play mean 1 less non draw spell in the deck.

but basically, that is 24 draw spells, or 2/5th's of your deck, or 40%, basically, 2 in every 5 cards should be a draw spell of some kind, and you're netting a new hand of 7, which means you're going to average overall, drawing into 2.8 draw spells with every 7 cards you see, & that doesn't even take into account the number of permanents you have in play, so the number is a little better than that, though it also means in order to draw a new 7, you have to Cast 1 Time Spiral, and they remove themselves from the game, so there's 1 less draw spell there, either way it just means in the end, the math supports this deck casting Time Spiral multiple times and fizzling so rarely, it can happen, & if you play in enough tournaments it will happen "sometimes" but when it does, it'll likely be the only time you fizzled that night. The point is it means that the Sevarance is just not necessary.

Also if it helps for references to Candeless builds, in "the list" of successful decklists in the primer at front, each deck that doesn't have a Candels # next to it, is a list that was candeless. The ones I find myself linking the most when people ask though are these because of their different angles & the events they were played at:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8917&iddeck=65743
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=44089
& this one because it's the most recent:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9882&iddeck=72048

Edit: Tournament report in, though be warned, it's huge, and compared to how I did last time, I made some really critical & basic play mistakes that while I'm not proud of them happening, they still happened, and all I can do is be even more strict about it & go from there http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25926-SCG-attempt-6-Seattle-Apr-21st-2013-just-1-perspective-out-of-261!-(41st)

[Cave]

Here's a pragmatic question: How do you guys handle writing down Storm and Mana counts? I lend my High Tide list to a friend for GP Strasbourg as he didn't have anything else to play and he was very visually and vocally frustrated playing the deck to a 5-2-1 finish, mostly because the constant shuffling and tracking storm and mana counts took up a massive amount of his time each round. You clearly want to leave a paper trail in case a judge gets involved, but how precise do your notes have to be? What kind of system do you tend to use for this? He ended up going to time against both Dredge and Belcher, two decks not particularly well known for playing long rounds of gruesome, interactive magic, and he's not a slow decision maker with this deck either.

You can keep in mind a serie of numbers e.g. 4/6/3, where you know that it means Spells played/Mana in pool/Mana produced by each island.

However, I use the following method and I've been very comfortable with it.

1. While playing, I keep my graveyard pile in a very prominent position: nearest to the center of the table and developing from left to right. When I begin to combo, I set the first spell of my turn in a lower position so I can see it immediately. In this way I can count storm just by looking at my graveyard.
2. For all the spells I cannot count by looking at my graveyard, I use a 20-sided-dice: the most frequent case is, after Time Spiral, I put the card in my RFG with a dice on it (or near it, if someone complains :D) to remember how many spells I played before it. Every other card that cannot be count in your graveyard gets you a +1 on the dice; examples are Cunning Wish, Blue Sun's Zenith (it gets reshuffled) and every enemy interaction with your combo (counterspells, et cetera).
3. I also use a dice on one of my islands for mana calculations. I feel more comfortable by using it to mark how much mana an island taps for, and not using it to mark how many High Tide cards were played this turn.

If you use two dices, you can just keep in mind the mana you have, and be fine. Any time you need stormcount, you read what the storm-dice in your rfg says (es:8) and then proceed to count the spells in your graveyard from that number.

[BrettF]

The problem fighting all show and tell decks (especially with a turn4 deck) is that the hate you want against emrakul is not the same you want versus neither omniscience or griselbrand. Not allowing them to resolve SnT (or Dream halls/sneak attack/whatever) is the best plan imo... Dilluting your deck with ensnaring bridge, pithing needle, jace tms, gilded drake, envelop or humility is not the way to go. about the only cards I can think of in legacy that is _good_ against them is meddling mage, v.clique and a slew of discard but obviously we can't run those.

If you drop in a mind over matter they cant attack you for a while, and that used to see play. The omni versons don't play sneak, so just focus on flustering the show. Maybe bad, just brainstorming with ya.

I just built the deck so thanks to feline and all of you for the great resource!

[pollution]

The Mana Severance is really not necessary, here's why:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Intuition
4 Time Spiral
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
+ any Islands/Candelabra's in play mean 1 less non draw spell in the deck.

but basically, that is 24 draw spells, or 2/5th's of your deck, or 40%, basically, 2 in every 5 cards should be a draw spell of some kind, and you're netting a new hand of 7, which means you're going to average overall, drawing into 2.8 draw spells with every 7 cards you see, & that doesn't even take into account the number of permanents you have in play, so the number is a little better than that, though it also means in order to draw a new 7, you have to Cast 1 Time Spiral, and they remove themselves from the game, so there's 1 less draw spell there, either way it just means in the end, the math supports this deck casting Time Spiral multiple times and fizzling so rarely, it can happen, & if you play in enough tournaments it will happen "sometimes" but when it does, it'll likely be the only time you fizzled that night. The point is it means that the Sevarance is just not necessary.

Also if it helps for references to Candeless builds, in "the list" of successful decklists in the primer at front, each deck that doesn't have a Candels # next to it, is a list that was candeless. The ones I find myself linking the most when people ask though are these because of their different angles & the events they were played at:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8917&iddeck=65743
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=44089
& this one because it's the most recent:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9882&iddeck=72048

Edit: Tournament report in, though be warned, it's huge, and compared to how I did last time, I made some really critical & basic play mistakes that while I'm not proud of them happening, they still happened, and all I can do is be even more strict about it & go from there http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25926-SCG-attempt-6-Seattle-Apr-21st-2013-just-1-perspective-out-of-261!-(41st)

Good point. I figured a Mana Severance would dramatically reduce the fizzle rate post-spiral because every time I got a bad spiral hand it was almost all lands+counters. Then again, though, the rate at which I fizzled was very low. I may go ahead and goldfish with the Mana Severance anyway because playing the same 3-4 people gets pretty boring, but it'll just be food for thought for something in the future I guess.

And yeah, I've looked over all of the deck lists that don't run candels multiple times from this primer and from another one or two primers. I think I read that the most consistent non-candel build was a German-ran one from..late last year? In other forums a lot of people seemed to have run a bunch of the lists that won/placed in the top8 but failed horribly due to insufficient knowledge of the meta. Many of the same people agreed that the German build consistently placed high in tournaments all over the place. I'm still kind of far back on the reading for other primers so it may be somewhat obsolete now, but in any case I'm looking over most of the builds on a regular basis to see what the deck can work with/without.

Regards.


[edit]
Also, for Ethersworn Canonist are you still only allowed to play 1 spell in a turn that you use to bounce it? It looks like the effect remains active as long as it was in play at one point during the turn.

[feline]

If you drop in a mind over matter they cant attack you for a while, and that used to see play. The omni versons don't play sneak, so just focus on flustering the show. Maybe bad, just brainstorming with ya.

I just built the deck so thanks to feline and all of you for the great resource!

No you're absolutely right on that note, against Omnitell, not only can you use flusterstorm against their Show and Tell, but you can even wish for extraction to really slow them down, especially if they had to use a Burning wish to get their Show and tell, it's why the Omnitell match up is easier than Sneak & Show, as well, I can also Flusterstorm Burning Wish, but I can't do that against Sneak Attack directly.

-edit- Working on making a video goldfishing High Tide, will do one for speed, one for targeting as many opponents as possible for a Lethal Blue Sun's Zenith until I can't anymore (Like in a chaos game) as well as one where I'll just ramp up as much mana as possible, in the past I've been able to goldfish the combo part from the 1st high tide to the lethal Blue sun in under 3 minutes, targeted 11 different times at 50 cards with Blue sun, & another time just made the biggest Blue sun possible, hitting 2,800 something if I recall correctly.

[Cave]

another time just made the biggest Blue sun possible, hitting 2,800 something if I recall correctly.

About big blue sun's zeniths and massive headaches while playing (due to high tide mirror match): try to go off while Hive Mind is in play. :tongue:

[feline]

OH god lmao! Hive Mind ha ha.

[ScatmanX]

OH god lmao! Hive Mind ha ha.
Playing Solidarity I have won once against a SnT'd Hive Mind. Funny thing is that his counterspells did not work, and after a Brain Freeze, I killed him using a Brainstorm =D
(fun times with solidarity....)

[Seraph2k]

How can you kill hm with Brainstorm???

[Tempus]

How can you kill hm with Brainstorm???

Hive Mind in play, cast Brainstorm, let Hive Mind trigger resolve, opponent has to draw 3 cards with an empty library.

[Cave]

To be constructive, i'll post some information about how to combo with Hive Mind and how I solved the puzzle myself.
Disclaimer: Going off with Hive Mind on the battlefield is very rare. Chances are either it will never touch the battlefield against you (because you win the counterwar and then go off) or it will and a ton of un-affordable pacts will kick your face and you will lose. Anyway:

1. First of all, try to figure out if he/she also plays Emrakul. While Storm spells you cast are very valuable with Hive Mind in play (because a copied spell with storm won't trigger its storm ability and therefore your opponent only gets one copy e.g. of brain freeze or flusterstorm) you don't want to waste a Brain Freeze on a deck with 3 emrakuls.
2. Don't try to turnabout his/her lands. He'd just turnabout for more mana in response. You can switch between phases to negate that mana generation, but you can't do that more than once (because you want your sorceries). However, I believe this trick should be saved for emergencies and/or when you want to kill.
3. Lure him/her. If he/she's stupid/naïf-ive/uninformed enough to play some pacts during your turn (because he drew into them with your spirals or meditates or cantrips), just:
-Cunning Wish
-Wipe Away on Hive Mind
-Pass

Edit: This point is really obvious. What i mean with that is, with the right hand you can consider EOT-Comboing him with cunning wish->wipe away + meditate and be fine.
4. Build a ton of mana. I really mean, a ton of mana. Double high tides!
5. Cast as many instants you can after time spiral, because in fact there is another time spiral on the stack :eyebrow: (you also should not untap your lands when you first draw 7 because the first spell to resolve is the hive mind copy and he's the controller of that Time Spiral).
6. If there will be a situation where you absolutely don't want to begin your turn, you can meditate it away (unless he/she already has hive mind on the battlefield).
7. Always Wipe Away that nasty enchantment before you USZ him/her (you don't dig your own gravepit do you :laugh:). I suggest you do that mid-combo, when you have build enough mana but also you have some more draw spells to do. You always want to have more counterspells than he/she does when you go for the finisher.
8. Don't fetch for counterspells during the first part of the combo, you won't need them until hive mind is bounced away.

If something else comes to my mind, i'm just gonna edit.

[Isaac]

I wanted to get some opinions on impulse. 1u look at the top 4 choose one then put the rest on the bottom of your library at instant speed. when I start a game and for most of the high tide players I believe we all sculpt are hands into what we feel we can go off with. Some choose an earlier rout and others wait till the last second. Playing slower decks we have time to carefully choose when to go off but when facing discard plus creatures or discard combo we have to be a little more aggressive. Lets look at are main deck drawls. Ponder brainstorm pre ordain. We all know what these guys do however imo ordain can be the weakest out of the three. The only problem I see with impulse is that you do get rid of three potential cards that you would other wise like to see on top. The card is great for digging. The card at instant speed can go 4 deep for another counter if needed. Get's 4 cards from the top then you can brainstorm into a fresh three or ponder into a fresh three. I don't think it casting 2 huts to much. let me know what you guys think.

[Seraph2k]

The card was solid when I played it ten years ago, but now it feels a bit weak. I love to have my 12 cantrips together with the scrolls and intuition. During turn two I want to play something more efficent, after my first cantrip in turn one...

[ScatmanX]

I wanted to get some opinions on impulse. 1u look at the top 4 choose one then put the rest on the bottom of your library at instant speed. when I start a game and for most of the high tide players I believe we all sculpt are hands into what we feel we can go off with. Some choose an earlier rout and others wait till the last second. Playing slower decks we have time to carefully choose when to go off but when facing discard plus creatures or discard combo we have to be a little more aggressive. Lets look at are main deck drawls. Ponder brainstorm pre ordain. We all know what these guys do however imo ordain can be the weakest out of the three. The only problem I see with impulse is that you do get rid of three potential cards that you would other wise like to see on top. The card is great for digging. The card at instant speed can go 4 deep for another counter if needed. Get's 4 cards from the top then you can brainstorm into a fresh three or ponder into a fresh three. I don't think it casting 2 huts to much. let me know what you guys think.
I played THIS (http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6374&iddeck=46188) version during the Mental Misstep era. Impulse was great in the deck. It allowed a greater control of the stack, and I often played like Solidarity after a good Spiral, chaining spells togheter responding to my opponents counterspells (having 4 Turnabout and 0 Candels helped in that departament too).
Today, I don't think it is worth it. The biggest problem I've found was having trouble keeping 1 landers with 2 Impulses, that if were other 1cc cantrip, I'd surely keep (and that made me play with 19 lands...).

[Cave]

The card itself isn't bad - you just have better options.
The only reason I see to carry impulse is to better solving the following situation: 4 Lands in play High Tide-> Time Spiral -> Untap, draw and get no untappers.
In this case, you shouldn't meditate right away because you will have 5 mana left and you can't either spiral or merchant into turnabout.

However, bad spirals happen anyway, and we have plenty of cantrips to handle that, so in my opinion impulse isn't that relevant: pre-combo, preordain does more or less the same thing (it fixes your topdeck) sorcery speed, but in a cheaper way. Mid-combo, I don't see why you'd have to pay 1U to choose the best card among 4 when you can pay 2U and draw them all, in particular, when you already have 3-4 preordain 4 ponder 4 merchant 1 intu 1 USZ to reshuffle and fix your top.

If you are really interested in impulse effects, you can find an italian list somewhere in this forum which made top8 recently (feline posted it i'm pretty sure) which packed 4 or 8 impulse effects (peer through depths? can't remember). The list also played candelabras, so to speak.

[feline]

SCG Opens: Legacy portion
St Louis June 9th
Minneapolis August 4th
If you're at either one & you plan on pushing High Tide, I'll cya there! Likely going to skip the type II/Standard Saturday event, though it's possible my mind could change.
If I get really crazy I'll add even more to the list of open's I'll attend, all depends on the $$$ baby!

Also to note: Jonathan Thatch was at a previous St Louis who pulled off a High Tide top 8, so if you read this/are there again, I'll cya there as well, and of course if Thatch is pushing High Tide again I'll be rooting all the way as well as pushing the deck myself.

[Isaac]

St Louis isn't to far from where I live around 3 hours. The thing would be getting people from my area to go. I'll keep ya posted and on another note there is a tourny on the 18th of this month in my area i'll post later on how I did.

[topef27]

Has anyone tested Hidden Strings? It's an efficient untapper that can also target candelabra.

@feline - Unfortunately I don't think I'll be going to STL this year. I have to work Saturday night (in Kansas City). So it would mean 3-4 hours of sleep then a 4 hour drive in order to play High Tide for 8 hours. Although that's what I did last year with great results, I'm not currently planning on it.
-Jonathan

[Pdingo]

@Hidden Strings
I don't think it's good, because:
1. You have to cut a important Slot.
2. It's only a untap Card more..Candel and Turnabout, maybe Snap are enough.
3. I would Play Snap over Hidden Strings. Its a lot better;)
4. Only a Sorcery...

[philipneri]

Hello to all of you Spiral Tide players. My name is Philip Neri. I am totally new to this website and to the Legacy scene. I have been playing casual MtG for years. My local game store holds a small Legacy event every Saturday, and I decided that I would like to try and partipate in it about once a month during summer vacation.

I am pretty sold on making this deck my first Legacy deck. My budget is fairly small (about $150) so I will not be able to afford Candelbra of Tawnos. Luckily, I already own FoW, Wishes, and fetches. I also built a casual Spring Tide deck back in 2011 so I have High Tides, cantrips, and Turnabouts from that. With my modest budget, I am pretty sure I can afford Time Spirals, Meditates, and Flusterstorms.

I think this will be my first decklist:
Lands (18 total)
12x Islands
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Scalding Tarn

Cantrips (11 total)
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
3x Preordain

Tutors (7 total)
4x Merchant Scroll
3x Cunning Wish

Protection (7 total)
4x Force of Will
3x Flusterstorm

The Rest (17 total)
4x High Tide
4x Time Spiral
3x Meditate
3x Turnabout
2x Cloud of Faeries
1x Blue Sun's Zenith

Sideboard (15 total)
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
1x Brain Freeze
1x Turnabout
1x Meditate
1x Wipe Away
1x Snap
1x Echoing Truth
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Flusterstorm
1x Pact of Negation
1x Spell Pierce
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Ravenous Trap

I have been goldfishing this deck all weekend and I have really enjoyed it so far. I will probably order the cards this week and try to go to my first local event on May 18th. I will let you know how I do. If I ever manage to win some store credit, I will use it to buy an Intuition for the Sideboard.

[Undomian]

Played the following to a loss in the Quarterfinals of my local this weekend:


12 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Pact of Negation
4 Brainstorm
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Flusterstorm
4 High Tide
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
4 Merchant Scroll
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
3 Cunning Wish
1 Meditate
3 Turnabout
4 Force of Will
4 Time Spiral

Sideboard:
1 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Brain Freeze
2 Defense Grid
1 Echoing Truth
1 Snap
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Hibernation
1 Intuition
1 Meditate
1 Wipe Away
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Turnabout


In the Swiss, I won against Jund, Esperblade, and Shardless BUG, losing to another Esper player (This guy had an extremely atypical decklist with MBT and such in his sideboard, so I lost to tricks I didn't expect because I'm bad) and drawing into T8 at 3rd seed against RUG. I lost to the same Shardless BUG player in the Quarterfinals after seeing actually nothing in game 1, then Spiralling him into multiple Force of Will in game two with only one of my own.

I'm not sure how everyone has been managing without Meditate in their deck recently. Its been a clutch card for me, and is one of my primary wish targets both pre and post-spiral.

[feline]

Welcome to the format/forums/deck Phillipneri! Looks like we have another High Tide player on the team!

Based on your post, the obvious goal is one you already stated yourself, which is to get the remaining stuff you need for the deck. After that all I can say really is keep us posted here and there and akeep playing High Tide! There are a lot of awesome High Tide players that check the thread regularly enough.

Also if it helps and you decide to go "all the way" with the deck (Candelabra of Tawnos) If you make enough friends in the Magic community, you could just temporarily borrow some for those larger events lipe Opens/Grand Prix's, bigger local stuff, etc!

[feline]

The High Tide, is High.

Yes the message is vague, but the point still stands, this deck is still optimal, enough people pushing it like other decks, it would perform on the same successful % level, so if you're a potential High Tider, please consider being more than potentially pushing it, as in, if you are considering, do more than consider!

~Feline Longmore, High Tide, Legacy, because the deck is still stupid good.

...& run 4 flusterstorms in your 75, darnet! he he.

[Cave]

...and run Hurkyl's Recall in your sideboard!
2 months ago I lend my deck to a friend to play at a nearby tournament, and we discussed about not carrying H.R. because in fact nobody plays artifact lock in legacy.
He went 2-0 then lost to white staxx in round 3 :laugh:
HR costs you one slot, it makes you literally win some games, it would be stupid not to run it. Same is true for Echoing Truth.

I also don't like defense grids anymore, as most of the control cards in the format are now protective (sorcery discard, sorcery permanent-distruction, creature-based or artifact lock) and not reactive (instant counterspells), with many control decks not even running full playset of FoW's. Defense Grid also prevents you from countering stuff or doing EoT setups.

[Seraph2k]

HR is a must-have slot in my SB. It saved my ass sooooo many times!
You are so right ;)

@Feline
Yes a flusterstorm 3/1 playset is also very important cause you win every counterwar!

[Isaac]

I am starting to agree with the main deck meditate. I also think the one in the side is also useful. When you go up against decks like jund or shardless there discard package can really hurt you and sideing in a drawl three spell works wonders.

[Heretic_AntheM]

Hello everybody!
I'd like to hear from you about using in the maindeck:

3 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Snap
2 Turnabout


Here is my full list:

MainDeck (60)

Instants [23]

3 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
4 High Tide
2 Turnabout
1 Snap
1 Wipe Away

Sorceries [16]

4 Merchant Scroll
4 Ponder
4 Time Spiral
4 Preordain

Artifacts [3]

3 Candelabra of Tawnos

Lands [18]

2 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
12 Island

Sideboard (15)

3 Pact of Negation
1 Flusterstorm
1 Rebuild
1 Wipe Away
1 Snap
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Intuition
1 Turnabout
1 Brain Freeze
1 Blue's Sun Zenith

[astormbrewing]

Hello everybody!
I'd like to hear from you about using in the maindeck:

3 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Snap
2 Turnabout


Here is my full list:

MainDeck (60)

Instants [23]

3 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
4 High Tide
2 Turnabout
1 Snap
1 Wipe Away

Sorceries [16]

4 Merchant Scroll
4 Ponder
4 Time Spiral
4 Preordain

Artifacts [3]

3 Candelabra of Tawnos

Lands [18]

2 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
12 Island

Sideboard (15)

3 Pact of Negation
1 Flusterstorm
1 Rebuild
1 Wipe Away
1 Snap
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Intuition
1 Turnabout
1 Brain Freeze
1 Blue's Sun Zenith

That's 58/60 that Feline used to win the SCG Legacy Open in Nov 2012, so it's a fine list (she ran -1 Intuition -1 Turnabout +1 Meditate +1 Candelabra of Tawnos). I believe she'd swap the Meditate for the Intuition, and she's a big believer in 4 Candelabras.

[InertMaterials]

Hi all,

I'm still kinda new to playing High Tide, and I was wondering if there existed some kind of mini-Primer that could give me some tips of order of casting spells (In particular: Brainstrom, Ponder, Preordain and Meditate) I'm still a little lost on whats generally the most optimal order to play these, and I imagine it'd be quite an advantage to know.

Cheers,
IM

[Isaac]

Hi all,

I'm still kinda new to playing High Tide, and I was wondering if there existed some kind of mini-Primer that could give me some tips of order of casting spells (In particular: Brainstrom, Ponder, Preordain and Meditate) I'm still a little lost on whats generally the most optimal order to play these, and I imagine it'd be quite an advantage to know.

Cheers,
IM

This is all based on situations. Read the first page and it gives you a good mind set as to what each card douse and how it benefits you.

[Isaac]

I am playing the same list as mentioned before today for some tundras. Will post results and such Sunday wish me good luck :D

[Cave]

Hi all,

I'm still kinda new to playing High Tide, and I was wondering if there existed some kind of mini-Primer that could give me some tips of order of casting spells (In particular: Brainstrom, Ponder, Preordain and Meditate) I'm still a little lost on whats generally the most optimal order to play these, and I imagine it'd be quite an advantage to know.

Cheers,
IM

If you search up the topic there's a post of mine in which I tried to cover this and to give some information about cantrips. I didn't consider meditate though, just the cantrips. As far as meditate is concerned, if you are 100% sure you won't have mana issues after casting it, and you don't know what's on top of your deck (or you know it and there are good cards) it is always better to meditate FIRST, and only THEN proceed with cantrips, because 1. you dig deeper and 2. you can put back lands & junk with brainstorm, then shuffle it away with preordain/merchant/intu/ponder.

Edit: it's page 6.

[Isaac]

Went 3-1-1 today made top 8 out of 22 players lost in the first round of top. The deck is missing something I can feel it. Mystic remora made today for me. The card is absolutely absurd. Also a little bit of a damn I'm so good at this moment. Cast meditate drawled 4 then drew another 4 when I hit it off the first BANANAS.

[Dark Ritual]

Went 3-1-1 today made top 8 out of 22 players lost in the first round of top. The deck is missing something I can feel it. Mystic remora made today for me. The card is absolutely absurd. Also a little bit of a damn I'm so good at this moment. Cast meditate drawled 4 then drew another 4 when I hit it off the first BANANAS.

Glad to hear it. I'm a HUGE proponent of 3 meditate maindeck and 1 in the wishboard, because the card is actually absurd. For every game where you meditate into 4 lands, there's at least 2 games where it singlehandedly wins the game.

@Heretic_AntheM: Needs more meditate and less intuition. Would you rather draw 4 cards or die to surgical extraction on time spiral? The deck NEEDS an engine other than time spiral, end of story. And meditate is also a killer set up spell as untapping after meditate resolves on their end step typically results in a win due to how much gas you often have in hand after drawing 3 extra cards.

[feline]

Even though I am personally cutting down on Meditate I can not deny that it's still good overall. In that regard, I think it just comes down to personal preferences since, as a whole, High Tide decks are still the same. Run some High Tides, Time Spirals, Islands, Card draw, untap effects, tutors, etc.

[Isaac]

I like the 1 of main. In that instance I was playing against urb miracles and I wanted more cards so I slipped the one from the side in. I've noticed a lot of my games run late into the round. Any ideas for shuffling faster? I usually power shuffle and side shuffle.

[feline]

I just shuffle as fast as possible, so I never do that pile shuffling or anything, just shuffle as thoroughly as possible as fast as possible, it's built into my brain to go as fast as possible for some reason, maybe it's good that I play something like this deck.

In either case, it just comes down to each own's personal shuffling moves, if you feel more comfortable pile shuffling, or some other certain way, then that's all there is to it!

[Cave]

Mystic remora made today for me. The card is absolutely absurd.
1. How does your sideboard look?
2. Do you think it's gonna help in the ShowAndOmniscience matchup? Yesterday I tested it a bit and it seems incredibly awful. Your best best is to Wish a wipe away and wait; even then, he's so full of counters you can't even expose and try to go off.

Edit: I also highly support 3+1 meditates, but i'd likely drop one if I had 3 candelabras. Cheap card advantage is always welcome.

[Isaac]

List I ran at the tourny

18 land (6 fetch 12 island)
4 brainstorm
3 preordain
4 ponder
4 merchant scroll
3 cunning wish
1 blue sun's zenith
1 meditate
4 force
3 flusterstorm
1 pact
4 high tide
3 turnabout
3 candelabra
4 time spiral



2 mystic remora
2 spell pierce
1 meditate
1 wipe away
1 echoing truth
1 snap
2 surgical extraction
1 turnabout
1 intuition
1 brain freeze
1 blue sun's zenith
1 rav trap

I side mystic in against control burn shardless jund and delver. Basically any deck with hand disruption or any deck that plays a ton of non creature spells. I normally side out 1 candel 1 high tide 1 ponder 1 bstorm 1 preordain. You need those scrolls and time spirals and wishes. Recently though I've been considering sideing out blue suns. It's good getting cards when you have a ton of mana and the combo hasn't gone off completely yet but against a fast deck it's tricky cause you most of the time don't have enough time to cast it.

[Isaac]

The turnabout at the moment is a hurks recall

[idm]

First of all: This is probably the best Primer I've ever seen. Thanks for the massive amount of info ! :)

Almost got my Candleless high tide deck together. I'm going to play this list:

Instants
4x Brainstorm
3x Cunning Wish
3x Flusterstorm
4x Force of Will
4x High Tide(A)
1x Intuition
2x Meditate
1x Pact of Negation
4x Turnabout

Land
10x Island(A)
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Scalding Tarn

Sorceries
4x Merchant Scroll
4x Ponder
4x Preordain
4x Time Spiral

Side
1x Ravenous Trap
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Blue Sun’s Zenith
1x Brain Freeze
1x Echoing Truth
1x Flusterstorm
1x Meditate
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Pact of Negation
1x Rebuild
1x Snap
2x Wipe Away

I still think High Tide is one of the most challenging decks in Legacy. I goldfished a lot with this deck, and pretended my nonexistent 'opponent' had hatebears on board and the like. It's amazing how smoothly you can play around them with high tide. Counter wars are a bit harder to simulate but unless an opponent lucks out and gets a full hand of counters after the first Time Spiral, most of the time you can just 'outcounter' them.

Another thing I like about the deck: It's, in legacy terms, pretty much a budget deck.

I've read a lot about how candleless high tide doesn't stand a chance in tourneys compared to lists that run candles. Is it really that bad? Somehow it seems that most expert High Tide players do play Candles. Of course it makes the deck better, but if an expert High Tide player would try a Candleless list, would he fail also? If I look here: http://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=130, I see a couple of Candleless lists that got top8, top 4 even. What are your thoughts on that?

Either way, I think Candles are just too expensive for what they do (It's an amazing card, I just don't like paying 200+ for 1 ;) ), so I'll probably never buy them. Seems like a cool challenge to get as far as possible without them.

[entreri_fans]

Hi, idm!

I am the one who is running Candelabra of Tawnos. but I think you can play the deck very well even without them completely.

Candelabra helps you do produce mana in a ridiculous speed, so you will be able to hit a lethal Blue Sun's Zenith very fast. also there are so corner cases that Candelabra will you help you a lot(you only have 2 lands, so you can never go off unless you have 1 candelabra in play+_+).

so that you will see candelabra provides you with speed in this deck, allowing you to go off earlier than usual, at least in my opinion.

but speed is not always necessary in this deck, as long as you can prevent you opponent from killing you(use your counter-magic to fight threat and use turnabout to timewalk), you will be able to survive into late game. by then you will have more islands in play, allowing you to go off with less risk than before.

also, your candeless list is very good. just keep practising and good luck! enjoy yourself with this awesome deck!

[idm]

Hi ENtreri,

Thanks for your quick response :). Yeah that's what I thought. It's much quicker. Thanks for the info!

Hopefully I get the rest of the cards in time to participate on the 2nd of June in a small Legacy tourney. I'll post the results here if I can make it.

One thing I found when reading (ALOT) about this deck, is that the 4th Turnabout main deck, if you don't have Candles, is really important. After some testing I indeed noticed the deck becoming much much more consistent. Wishing for a Turnabout is pretty expensive and if you can get the mana to do that, most of the time you're already winning. When I tested with 3 turnabouts a while back, I had much more fizzles and it was harder find turnabout to 'timewalk' the opponent before going off. Also 4 cantrips of each helps a lot. The only thing I'm not sure off is the main board intuition.
Game 1 it's nice, and in game 2 it's boarded out for answers (to prevent getting your Spirals getting Surgically Extracted). Though I found myself having Intuition in my hand and not really needing it, ever. The one thing I can think of when it would be really useful is Merchant Scroll into Intuition into Time Spiral. But even that seems very slow and a venerable tactic.

Is intuition that important? Maybe I'm missing something because my lack of playtesting against a lot of matchups.

[Cave]

One thing I found when reading (ALOT) about this deck, is that the 4th Turnabout main deck, if you don't have Candles, is really important.

You probably read my posts. :D Indeed it is. You fizzle way less, and when having 2+ high tides played, wishing for snap becomes as much as efficient, if not more efficient.



(Intuition) Game 1 it's nice, and in game 2 it's boarded out for answers (to prevent getting your Spirals getting Surgically Extracted). Though I found myself having Intuition in my hand and not really needing it, ever. The one thing I can think of when it would be really useful is Merchant Scroll into Intuition into Time Spiral. But even that seems very slow and a venerable tactic.

Is intuition that important? Maybe I'm missing something because my lack of playtesting against a lot of matchups.
You are correct once again. Basic sideout plan is -1 high tide, -1 Intuition.
Basic sideout plan against heavy discard deck is -1 High tide, -1 Intuition, +1 Win Condition. You don't want your Cunning Wishes targeted.

[idm]

Cool, I'll trade for an intuition then :).

How do you all think about the new rules by the way? I thought it could come in very handy to be able to make your sideboard contain one card less and get an extra card mainboard. It could open up some extra options for games 2 and 3? :)

[Cave]

Cool, I'll trade for an intuition then :).

How do you all think about the new rules by the way? I thought it could come in very handy to be able to make your sideboard contain one card less and get an extra card mainboard. It could open up some extra options for games 2 and 3? :)

I think that some people will try to shuffle their whole sideboard into their decks, to make our combo harder. Fools :tongue:

[feline]

Just got my ticket for St Louis June 9th, cya at the Open, and of course I'll be pushing High Tide if you're there too!!!

[idm]

Nice! Have fun. :)

I just came across the card Three Wishes. With all the Surgical Extractions flying around, couldn't this be a good side-in for games 2 and 3?

[Seraph2k]

why? Just extract their extractions when you are midcombo... and never forget to take out one tide!

[astormbrewing]

Nice! Have fun. :)

I just came across the card Three Wishes. With all the Surgical Extractions flying around, couldn't this be a good side-in for games 2 and 3?

We can play around Extraction. This card is just inferior to Meditate, really.

Fun note: it's sometimes playing in Solidarity sideboards as a 5th Meditate.

[JDK]

I have updated my High Tide-Webapp (iOS or Android device recommended) to use the latest versions of jQuery and jQuery mobile (this should fix responsiveness issues). In addition I've added tracking for played Meditates and Pacts of Negation, as well as a history function, so you can review any changes if there's a dispute.

URL: http://storm.kraken.at

[feline]

Surgical Extraction is pretty much nullified by Brain Freeze. Round 1 of April, Seattle SCG open, I forgot to sideboard out a High Tide game 2, and I was like "o crap" but at the same time I realized "Ok I'll just play enough spells to Brain Freeze, because Blue Sun's Zenith wasn't so much an option at that point, it would have taken way too long to do a lethal blue sun if one even could at that point". Basically, I now will never run without a single Brain Freeze in the sideboard, because Surgical is that much weaker.

[Cave]

Basically, I now will never run without a single Brain Freeze in the sideboard, because Surgical is that much weaker.

I like this. ^^
Also brain freeze is much less brain intensive and it works against a big chunk of the field.

[SteakKnife]

Having never played this deck, how difficult is it for you to get to the ~15 storm count for brain freeze to win? Do you generally hit ~15 storm count even when just going for the normal route of winning?

How many times do you generally cast timespiral while going off?

What percent of the time do you fizzle? How do you recover?

Thanks!

[Di]

Having never played this deck, how difficult is it for you to get to the ~15 storm count for brain freeze to win? Do you generally hit ~15 storm count even when just going for the normal route of winning?

How many times do you generally cast timespiral while going off?

What percent of the time do you fizzle? How do you recover?

Thanks!


1. It happens pretty much any game you go off regardless of the route you take. Chaining cantrips and cheap spells ramps the storm count fairly easily, not to mention any time the opponent tries to interact helps bump it up too. However it does happen on occasion where you might get stuck in the 12-14 storm count range and want to Freeze them, but if this occurs I generally see this issue as a matter of incorrectly playing spells ~8-11 by not maximizing their efficiency to find more to make Brain Freeze lethal. Basically by the time you resolve your first Time Spiral you should know whether or not Brain Freeze is the most viable option and you can alter your play from there on to have a high chance of making it lethal.

2. 1-2 times, it's rare to ever need the third or fourth. Typically you only need the first as it should draw you into a win from there, but the second is always great against non-blue decks and still decent against blue if you need to fire it again and gamble them not having a better hand than you. In general the second is nice as a last resort if everything else you do (Merchant Scroll, Cunning Wish, etc.) is stopped.

3. Fizzling isn't that common, but happens to be probably 2-3 times maximum within an eight round tournament. Most of the time you fizzle occurs after a Time Spiral, and generally is because you're given a hand with only 0-2 draw spells or can't end up finding an untap effect within the first couple spells. In Grand Prix: Denver I got robbed by fizzling after Time Spiral something like a whopping six times, which is incredibly rare. If the opponent happens to out-counter you or something I wouldn't consider that fizzling as that involves interaction. Recovering from fizzling is rather easy, although a lot of the time you fizzle after a combo the opponent will have a full new hand or either be able to kill you the following turn. But if that doesn't happen you should be able to recover easily because if you couldn't continue the combo originally, odds are it was because you were missing a single card while the rest of your hand is decent. In most cases when you fizzle it's because you get stuck with a Time Spiral hand of something like two land, High Tide, two Force of Will, Candelabra, Flusterstorm. In that kind of situation, any draw spell sets you up to continue and win, so if you fizzle and the opponent doesn't kill you the following turn, you're in good position to find something next turn to try again.

[Cave]

2. 1-2 times, it's rare to ever need the third or fourth. Typically you only need the first as it should draw you into a win from there, but the second is always great against non-blue decks and still decent against blue if you need to fire it again and gamble them not having a better hand than you. In general the second is nice as a last resort if everything else you do (Merchant Scroll, Cunning Wish, etc.) is stopped.

I might add: the number of Time Spirals you need to kill is the result of the combination of:

1. What you draw with the last Time Spiral you cast.
2. How good your start was

If you start your combo with triple High Tide into Turnabout into Time Spiral, chances are you will soon resolve a 20+ USZ targetting yourself, and finish the job from there. However, when you Time Spiral into counterspells+cantrips+Time Spiral, and cantrips give you nothing, well, you know your plan.
Resolving multiple time spirals is a non-issue, particularly against non-blue decks: of course, every time spiral you cast rises your % of fizzling, but I assume one would not cast time spiral if he or she is still able to keep on storming. Think of it as a "I need just one to win" card; and even then, the other three are pretty good last resorts.

[feline]

After testing a bunch against the new "Omniblue" I've found that Dream Halls in play is super annoying if they resolve one before going off, so if I run into one this weekend, I'll probably try to wait as long as possible, but go off before they get to the option of casting a Dream Halls. I can Flusterstorm Show and Tell but not Dream Halls & again, with that in play, the Time Spirals are not as one sided, since they can counter with Cunning Wish/Force/Pact, which is another reason to go off before they hit 5 mana, they can't use Pact of Negation to defend themselves because they won't be able to pay for it on their upkeep.

~Just some notes about Omniblue, since it made 3 top 16's last weekend and I won't be surprised if I run into it, so I made sure I prepared for it before going.

[Lejay]

What you missed is that all the other players preparing for omniclash will either run more hate affecting you (because Oring effects arent' exactly the best choice) or play its few bad match-ups, which happen to be your worst match-ups.

Don't tell I didn't warn you. :smile:

[feline]

What you missed is that all the other players preparing for omniclash will either run more hate affecting you (because Oring effects arent' exactly the best choice) or play its few bad match-ups, which happen to be your worst match-ups.

Don't tell I didn't warn you. :smile:

Well the problem with a scenario where "the environment is or isn't optimal" for High Tide isn't so much what I look at, I'm addicted to this deck to that I'd play it regardless, it would take something like Mental Misstep for me to seriously consider "Do I need to go somewhere else" and even then I'd probably do a bunch of testing first, maybe even running Misstep in my own because I'm just that stuck on High Tide ha ha. Either way, gonna try to put High Tide on the map again, since it's last performance really was back in Feb with Michael Tabler as far as the open series goes. But one can't predict getting a top 8 finish, one can only try enough that sooner or later you pull one off in a given time frame of attempts.

[JDK]

After testing a bunch against the new "Omniblue" I've found that Dream Halls in play is super annoying if they resolve one before going off, so if I run into one this weekend, I'll probably try to wait as long as possible, but go off before they get to the option of casting a Dream Halls. I can Flusterstorm Show and Tell but not Dream Halls & again, with that in play, the Time Spirals are not as one sided, since they can counter with Cunning Wish/Force/Pact, which is another reason to go off before they hit 5 mana, they can't use Pact of Negation to defend themselves because they won't be able to pay for it on their upkeep.

~Just some notes about Omniblue, since it made 3 top 16's last weekend and I won't be surprised if I run into it, so I made sure I prepared for it before going.


What you missed is that all the other players preparing for omniclash will either run more hate affecting you (because Oring effects arent' exactly the best choice) or play its few bad match-ups, which happen to be your worst match-ups.

Don't tell I didn't warn you. :smile:

Is there a rivalry between you two in terms of High Tide vs Showniscience and being Cpt. Obvious? :laugh:

[feline]

Not that I'm aware of, I have no friendly rivalries out there I believe, ha ha. That sounds fun though.

[Lejay]

High tide was my favourite combo deck after doomsday. Since I realized Omniclash made it obsolete I feel I have to warn people playing it.

[feline]

Heading out to airport, hopefully see some High Tide action on Sunday, will be back at computer Monday night-Tuesday.

[Heretic_AntheM]

Good luck, Feline! :smile:

[Isaac]

Feline good luck wish I was there to ride the tides with you.

[feline]

Got to meet fellow High Tider Casey Hanford, heard about a belcher playing killing griselbrands & emrakul's with charbelcher, Blue Sun Zenith'd 2 different opponents for ridiculous amounts, one like 160 something the other closer to 200 just for fun, met & talked to a bunch of people all day when I walked into the room not knowing any of the players or staff, & got to chat with Joey Pasco throughout the day as well as the head judge throughout and after the event at a white castle ha ha, not to mention some broken sleeves and a couple losses, ended 6/2/1 with a 30th out of 280, this was probably the most fun Open I've done yet, it was awesome coming in there not knowing anyone and playing high tide like that round after round and getting people to see how much fun the deck can be. Long story short, SCG St Louis was a blast, next stop, Minneapolis in August ^.^

Also as per the usual, I will write a tournament report this week with all the good stuff about, it all!

[haymaker18]

Got to meet fellow High Tider Casey Hanford, heard about a belcher playing killing griselbrands & emrakul's with charbelcher, Blue Sun Zenith'd 2 different opponents for ridiculous amounts, one like 160 something the other closer to 200 just for fun, met & talked to a bunch of people all day when I walked into the room not knowing any of the players or staff, & got to chat with Joey Pasco throughout the day as well as the head judge throughout and after the event at a white castle ha ha, not to mention some broken sleeves and a couple losses, ended 6/2/1 with a 30th out of 280, this was probably the most fun Open I've done yet, it was awesome coming in there not knowing anyone and playing high tide like that round after round and getting people to see how much fun the deck can be. Long story short, SCG St Louis was a blast, next stop, Minneapolis in August ^.^

Also as per the usual, I will write a tournament report this week with all the good stuff about, it all!

It was fun to meet you and play against you on Sunday...definitely the most enjoyable opponent of the day. If memory serves, it was round 4? Whoever said combo vs combo isn't interactive definitely wasn't watching our match! -Dan

[feline]

Thank you, I am pretty much at the point of considering any Open to attend as long as it's on this half of the country, which include stuff across the plains from Minnesota all the way to Texas. Also welcome to the forums. ^.^

-edit- I'll keep informed, but I might be writing Legacy articles for a website at this point.

[Isaac]

Feline can you tell me if the main deck snap and wipe away have been useful post board in your recent tournament plays.

[GoldenCid]

Sorry...i want to ask if this thread is still for candleless list...or if there's another as happens with ledless dredge.

THX!

GC

[TheChuggernaut]

It was nice meeting you at SCGSTL! I Just wish i could have represented us better on the legacy side. So, I'm considering my options to take to one of the SCG Invitationals. Part of me wants to play a deck that acts similarly to what I'm playing in standard. However, I here that the number of fair decks in the event give combo a tangible edge as a meta selection. I'm thinking it's probably just best to tighten down my high tide play and get practice switching mental gears between matches. I suppose I could force combo in standard but I don't think it's viable. What are your thoughts?

[feline]

Standard is my bane right now for invitationals, I have 1 I can use right now but I'm likely going to wait till rotation and just use it in Vegas in December, since it's closer than Indy/Edison New Jersey.

As far as the format goes, the other combo decks are the reason I push 3 main Flusterstorms, I hope the format doesn't catch on & start doing that too, every once in a while I run into a Show and Tell or an Ad Nauseam Storm deck that brings in a couple games 2/3, but it's definitely not common as most don't. Also I'm aware that Spell Pierce is better for Show and Tell as it can stop an opposing planeswalker like Liliana of the Veil, & Flusterstorm can't, but either way.

As far as High Tide goes, it's still very viable, I think even more so than it was last year at this time, because then it was RUG/UW Stoneblade, now it's Jund, Shardless BUG, & Esperdeathblade at this point. That means there is less blue than before and they are relying on discard, and that makes brainstorm even stronger where as against counters, Brainstorm doesn't nullify a counter. On top of that there's the fact that Discard is useless once Time Spiral's start resolving. Some decks even have their Force of Will's in their sideboard now, a Deathblade round 2 admitted that to me after our match was over in St Louis. As far as Shardless goes, they just basically run Thoughtseize / Hymn to Tourach & Force of Will as their disruption from the 1st game, & depending on what they bring in game 2, it's usually more discard because they don't want to flip a Counterspell/Spell pierce, etc, off of a Shardless Agent. As well on top of the increased opposing discard coming from the other side of the table in the format, Flusterstorm shines there to against things like early Thoughtseize & Hymn to Tourach. Sometimes I'll even save a Brainstorm just to increase the storm count, & if they wait too long to use their discard because they're worried about me countering it knowing I have a Flusterstorm, I'll just eventually go off anyway.

I suppose in a nutshell, as long as I feel I can have enough disruption for opposing/faster combo decks, while being resilient enough against the opposing disruption, I'll continue to push the deck on top of the fact that I just love playing it like crazy! In either case, congrats on the Standard trophy! As far as the invitational goes, I'm already preparing myself for some sort of U/W or U/W/x control type deck for post rotation after Innistrad rotates out, especially with the rumors of it being creature based, based on the legendary changes, Mutavault coming into m14, another round of Slivers in with m14 as well, & them saying it's "Roman themed".

As for what I'd play right now in Type II/Standard, I'd like to play some sort of U/W/x control type deck now but it doesn't seem to be doing good enough compared to the other decks, and I don't want to invest into a lower tier deck just to play it at 1 or 2 Opens before rotation, so for now I'm just focusing on Legacy.

As far as combo in standard goes, I tried the Human Reanimator back in December in L.A., & again here in Seattle in April but I went 6-3-1 & then 5-5, though admittedly I don't know standard the way I know Legacy, & my misplays were definitely higher in the Standard portion because of that. I almost feel so out of touch with Standard that it's hard for me to even feel comfortable suggesting / pondering what to do in it. I suppose that just means I take the fastest aggro deck and hope it plays itself ha ha.

[Mackan]

Played high tide this weekened and loved it... I realized I miss playing the deck a lot. Even though I think Esperblade is superior if you want to win a tournament I've gotten really tired of Lingering souls.

I want to brew and I would like to hear your thoughts on a pretty overlooked sideboard card...Ancestral Vision.

The fair decks with black (Jund, shardless bug, esper, deathblade) are all very slow but packing a lot of hate, most of which is discard. Ancestral vision suspended will act like brainstorm 5-8 hiding business, without having to put anything back :-) It is slow, does nothing post-combo (other than pitching to fow) and is more or less required to be in our starting 7. But. It might work.

I love mystic remora versus combo, but versus the midrange-decks as of late we need something else.

thoughts?

[TheChuggernaut]

How do you feel about Sapphire Charm in the toolbox? It does the same job as creature bounce but for 1 mana with a few extra perks: it kills batterskull if we're trying to buy time; phased out hatebears can't be recast or vialed in; only costing one gets it around snare and makes soft counters that much worse. It loses some utility but it also cantrips if all else fails.

[flrn]

Sapphire Charm is too narrow. It doesn't draw the card immediatly. Therefor it doesn't help you midcombo. Other bouncespells also don't help you midcombo, but at least they work on more things than opposing creatures. There is a reason, why people always use the same spells in their sideboards (Chain of Vapor, Echoing Truth, Snap, Wipe Away, Hurkyl's Recall, Rebuild). They are simply the best ones for their manacosts at what they do.